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When do you correct incorrect pronunciation?
- fldhkybnva Apr 28, 2013 04:48 PM
I usually let it slide when people pronounce the hundreds of words adopted from other languages which we use to refer to cooking techniques or recipes. However, I have a coworker who has fallen in love with the sous vide technique and chatters about it nonstop which is fine but she says "souSSS viDDDe" with a very snake like sssssss. I'm not judging her at all, but feel like many in the world would as she flaunted her sousSSS viDDDe dishes. If it were a random utterance, I wouldn't mention anything but I just feel like a quick correction would save the snakes. When you know it's not a mispronunciation due to a regional dialect or just the manner in which someone speaks, when do you correct others and when do you let it go? I imagine if it's a family member you might make a mention especially for children, but do you do this for friends, coworkers, random people in the store or at a restaurant?
re: Isolda
I think, in the case of family or close friends, it's not a matter of any "annoyance" on my part, but rather a wish that these loved ones are spared appearing to be dumbasses to others in future situations. I do it gently and in a one-on-one, after the fact conversation.
I once had a back-and-forth with a coworker who kept pronouncing "vichyssoise" like visheeswah. I would respond something like "oh, I love visheeswaZ" to try to give her the hint, but she kept pronouncing it the other way.
I think she thought she was right and was trying to correct me. I didn't like her, so I never bothered to tell her she was wrong. I don't think she'd have believed me anyway.
re: LisaPA
Reminds me of one of my (least) favorites: "Conn-see-air" for concierge.
re: sandylc
I recall a teacher using the word appetizer over hors d'oeuvre just to avoid saying it out loud....as for the spelling, I believe 4 diff ways.
appetizer is so much easier..
Random people, never. Coworkers, maybe. Friends and family, usually.
re: grampart
Agreed. If you choose to say something to the co-worker, pronounce it correctly after she says it. Be ready with a laugh, a semi-hug, and a 'you know I love ya' if she seems embarrassed. Maybe throw in a short story of you mispronouncing something at one time. (Surely we've all done it sometime.) I had a similar issue last Thursday. My salesperson emailed the manager of Tim Love's new restaurant and said somewhere in the email that the restaurant had peaked her interest. The manager emailed back and set an appointment and said 'We're so glad to be open," to which my salesperson replied 'I'm so glad your open to!" Fantastic salesperson, but oh, the spelling!
re: KrumTx
Cute story, very clever response.
re: KrumTx
Sending you a laugh and a semi-hug in order to say perhaps it's also okay to let someone who obviously cares about spelling know that it's not "peaked her interest" but "piqued her interest".
re: Chatsworth
I actually knew that. It was part of the horror of the email. But I'll take the semi-hug!
re: KrumTx
Can't believe I missed that, and hope I didn't cause any offence. "Glad your open to" correcting misunderstandings!
re: Chatsworth
re: Chatsworth
glad he is open 'too' as well!
re: KrumTx
Yes, MANY people do not realize that it's "pique one's interest". It's possible to correct another's spelling, pronunciation, etc., in a breezy way so as not to cause embarrassment. Personally, I am grateful to have my errors corrected. Usually it's a word that I've seen forever in print, but never heard in conversation. (Chimera comes to mind.)
I don't consider it rude to inform someone when they are using incorrect pronunciation; correct usage might in the future be the difference between success and failure in a job or social situation.
re: meatnveg
LOL! OH GOD does this bring back a bad memory. I had consumed a glass (or two) of wine, and my adult nephew said he did something 'similar' to someone else. Before I could stop myself, the 'ly' popped out of my mouth. I got horrified looks all around (totally deserved) and then before I could stop myself, I started explaining that since the word 'similar' was being used to modify the verb XXX, it should be used in the adverb form; thus-similarly. The whole time in MY OWN head I was sceaming 'STOP!!! STOP this RIGHT NOW!!!'. I have never forgiven myself, and certainly never done anything like this again. My nephew probably wouldn't even remember this if I brought it up!
re: justme123
Ha. Hubby and I are always shouting "ly!" at the television. It doesn't listen. Adverbs have all but disappeared.
re: sandylc
re: Kris in Beijing
re: Sooeygun
Oh Castle drives me nuts.
In one episode he miscorrected a "just between you and" I/me "error."
I also find myself saying "MORE" as opposed to whatever "errr" has been said
[funn-er. ugh].
re: Kris in Beijing
More funnerest.
re: Kris in Beijing
There was a great New Yorker cartoon I cut out and posted in my study: two guys in a bar, one says "You have no idea what it's like to be a 'just between you and me' person in a 'just between you and I' world." When hoity toity BBC period dramas do it, it really gets my goat.
(That cartoon hangs next to the one where the guy in the restaurant orders the "misspelled 'ceasar' salad and the improperly hyphenated 'osso-buco'" and the one where the woman says to her husband "I don't want your apology -- I want you to be sorry.")
Worse than "who" for "whom" -- which I believe has a claim to some legitimacy in sermo quotidianus -- is "whom" for "who."
re: sandylc
Which is disappearing, adverbs as a functional category, or that particular method of forming adverbs from adjectives?
According to this, adverbs serve a wide range of function, it is almost a catch-all category. Plus there are words that don't change form when used either way.
English has lost (or never had) many markers that are common in other languages. We don't have gender markers, or case markers. We readily turn nouns in to verbs, and v.v. (e.g. hammer). So I wouldn't surprise me if there's a tendency to lose the '-ly' marker. I wonder if anyone has studied this.
re: sandylc
re: zitronenmadchen
I've never thought to "talk" to the TV about a grammar mistake, but if I see CC Sabatthia throw a first pitch breakin' ball with runners on second and third, I howl my disapproval at the screen.
re: foodieX2
Well, as I've posted several times before, I want other 'hounds to read what I submit in my voice, so I undertook an experiment to try and recreate my speech patterns/accent in what I put up. Until the inevitable happens and we simply record audio files for our posts, payin' attention to the way I speak and offering my thoughts in all their colloquial and last "g" droppin' glory seemed to be the best way to avoid other 'hounds from failing to see the good natured spirit of what I have to "say". Remember, after all, this is a "conversation."
By the way, there ain't nothin' about me that's "cute".
re: MGZ
<offering my thoughts in all their colloquial and last "g" droppin' glory seemed to be the best way to avoid other 'hounds from failing to see the good natured spirit of what I have to "say".>
"Good natured spirit" isn't the first thing that comes to mind when readin' all that droppin'. At least, not for me.
re: MGZ
If you were talkin', I doubt I'd be noticin' that you're purposely leavin' out the letter "g." But you're not talkin'. You're writin'. And writin's different. Your leavin' out your "g"s on purpose makes me feel like I'm readin' an 8-year-old rather than a grown man.
I tend to read a couple of lines of your writin' before it starts drivin' me crazy, and move on to the next poster. It's so affected.
I don't mean to be offendin' you, but writin' ain't talkin', and I thought maybe someone ought to be tellin' you.
re: Chatsworth
Like Jay's, your comment is noted. It's too bad though, because sometimes subtlety is expressed in ways that one may fail to understand without stepping back and reflecting upon it.
Nonetheless, as I have noted more than once, I have a propensity for opacity sometimes. It doesn't bother me that some folks can't see through it. The most important thing* I took from grad school is that, psychologically, people have little choice but to interpret things through their experience. All I have been thinking about, when it comes to this experiment, has been how to mitigate the chances for conflict based upon misunderstanding.
*The second most important thing was that EVERY parent f*cks up something.
re: Jay F
As I said, it's been an experiment -trying to post in dialogue. After many years, I couldn't help but question whether this really is writing or are we blurring lines? I've been paid to write, edited for publication, and have a few pieces of sheepskin hanging on the wall. I understand how the language is put forth in letters.
I also, however, understand that this ain't a Law Review article or a Circuit Court brief. It is, in essence, a conversation among friends. In good fiction, characters speak in their "voices", right? Does that make it bad writing? Or does it help convey a sense of them so as to further what they're saying?
In fairness, an eight year old would have a great deal of trouble "hearing" their own voice and writing dialogue. Writing "by the rules" is easy, trying to understand when you drop your g's and when you don't is actually quite an incite producing exercise to undertake. I find my "Jersey Drawl" is much more Southern California surf than the "New York Mobster" that most people associate with the Garden State. Interestingly, it has made me more attuned to the "voices" of people I deal with in real life.
As you can see, I am still interested in the experiment. So far, I have noticed a decline in the number of times my comments have been misunderstood and reacted to poorly. I do, however, appreciate your thoughts - how else can one analyze such an experiment, right? At bottom, I do little without thought, and I am never afraid to revisit any idea I have had.
re: sandylc
I'll pass on the punctuation question and note that I think all mental exercises should, ultimately, produce incite. Otherwise, do they have value? You, sandy, however, are welcome to take the phrase as your own. However, when you make millions on a best-selling, self-help book, send this old 'hound a bone?
re: sandylc
"Produce incite" is two verbs, unless it means to incite vegetables. But incite them to do what, prep themselves for cooking? I could have used some "incite" on my "produce" tonight, namely my green beans for dinner. They don't tail and top themselves.
re: sandylc
I was just trying to be funny after you spotted my original spelling error. Seemed somehow Dr. Phil-ish to me.
re: MGZ
<<So far, I have noticed a decline in the number of times my comments have been misunderstood and reacted to poorly.>>
Perhaps fewer people are reading your posts.
That's a pronunciation/emphasis joke that would do Very Well when said aloud, but is almost indecipherable when written.
<<In fairness, an eight year old would have a great deal of trouble "hearing" their own voice and writing dialogue. >>
8-yr-olds write authentically in their own voice without artifice. They don't need to force it.
And, where is the 8 yr old writer who is relevant to this discussion?
Finally, see Skitt's Law.
re: Kris in Beijing
Yeah, I thought it was funny too. I use a device with spell correct because I decided not to post in my "voice" and my "i n s i t" Popped up as "incite". I am very prone to self-deprecation and laugh at myself frequently (otherwise my wife would be laughing alone). Besides, isn't egg supposed to be good for the skin on your face?
As to fewer people reading my posts, I spose that was a chance I took with my experiment. Nothin' ventured, and all . . . .
I'm working on my third cook of corned beef on the offset with a new spice rub and have changed fuel slightly. I'll post about that tomorrow or the next day. Folks can skip it if they like.* My progressive brain really doesn't let me care.
*My cooks tend to be different from those of others since they typically require a chain saw, an axe, and knowin' how to age wood. I always figured that's why there were so few responses. There is, however, a great deal to learn when one has the balls to play with food and break stuff. Like they say about makin' an omelette, right?
re: Kris in Beijing
Ah-hh....insight. I was particularly thick-headed on that one; probably the migraine. :-(
re: MGZ
MGZ, I appreciate your explanation about the conversational tone you choose to use when posting on CH. I, too, have noticed and wondered about it, especially when it seems to require more work on your part.
FWIW, your doing so has had the effect you intend when I read your posts...there are times when I may wonder where you are coming from when you comment on a thread, but the way you "sound" in your posts conveys good humor and congeniality.
Thanks for clearing up that mystery for me :-)
re: jlhinwa
I realized in advance that some people would get it and some wouldn't. That's the way life works, right?
One of the most interesting things about the experiment has been "hearin'" myself. I actually recorded my voice talking to others and recognized that I drop my g's more with some people than others. My vocabulary also seems to expand more with certain folks than with others. Tryin' to recreate all that is more work, but it's honest.
Another upside to the project has been becoming aware of how often I would use the word "like" as a stall or an adverb. Consequently, I have gotten much better about it lately. Also, it's funny how frequently people who maybe can write the "King's English" insert random "um's" into the words they say in person. Language is language and as I've gotten older I have realized just how cool it is to watch it evolve.
That last point, I think, has fueled most of my responses to this thread. I can understand Chaucer, but it doesn't "speak" to me, you know? Although I think the dialogue is brilliant, life is different now. I used to be a corrector, a prescriptivist - then I started listening and concluded that evolution is a positive. Why give a sh*t if someone says "'souSSS viDDDe' with a very snake like sssssss"? Someday that may become the preferred pro-noun-c-a-shin.
Anyway, as with Jay and Chatsworth, I sincerely appreciate the feedback on my trial. Chow on, right?
re: MGZ
Chow on, indeed! find your observations interesting and thought-provoking.
As the mother of a 12-year-old with a decent command of the English language relative to her peer group, I find it fascinating to listen to conversations she has with her friends. Sometimes I am dismayed, other times I am highly amused, and still other times I find myself admiring the wit and honesty in their communication. Your point about evolution is very apt, and it would be outright silly for me to spend time correcting my daughter and her friends based on standards that were in place when I was her age.
re: MGZ
I wouldn't correct someone's pronunciation unless I knew that they would prefer I do so, with the two exceptions being my husband and daughter.
I grew up with a maiden name that was never pronounced correctly, despite my best efforts to speak slowly and clearly. It is 11 letters long and is a somewhat non-Norwegian sounding name considering the name comes from a farming community in Norway. My relatives cannot agree on how to pronounce it. I decided early on it wasn't worth correcting people and have pretty much taken that approach to all areas of conversation.. (OT sidenote: I still like to tease my husband of almost 32 years that I married him for his last name. 6 letters and easy to pronounce and spell!)
re: jlhinwa
"[T]he two exceptions being my husband and daughter."
I s'pose that's the nail on the head for me. It boils down to the difference between being a d*ck and being a parent.
re: MGZ
Yeah, I feel obligated to help my daughter learn, especially when it is something she will be embarrassed by mispronouncing later on.
It's trickier with the spouse....I respect his feelings enough to correct him discreetly if we are with others. At home, though, it's okay for us to correct in front of the kid as I think it's important that she understands learning is a lifetime thing and we don't magically know everything when we reach adulthood.
re: jlhinwa
jhinwa: same here, 9 letters and the first four are consonants. I just say cheerily "close enough!" when it's inevitably mangled.
re: hill food
"I just say cheerily 'close enough!' when it's inevitably mangled."
Nine out of ten doctors agree that you'll likely live longer with that approach.
re: hill food
Close enough...love it! It was amusing to hear how my name got butchered lots of times, but there were other times that it was a PITA. Slight tangent: right now I am up to my eyeballs dealing with my aging mom's medical issues and am on the phone with health care professionals on a daily basis. I always have to say her name, spell her name including the "s, as in sam, v as in valley, e as in elephant," etc. Then I have to spell it again. And then it is still wrong. :-) Lately this has been a 2-4 times a day occurrence, which makes me happy to have my easy last name.
re: jlhinwa
jlhinwa, I sympathize. Regarding your mom, that is. I am also swimming in the same situation regarding parental health issues. It is a thankless and nonstop task. I can only hope there is some sort of small reward ahead.
re: sandylc
Thanks for your kind words, sandylc. Unfortunately, things appear rather grim right now but the one thing I know about my mom is that she is unpredictable. (She was dx'd with stage 4 terminal metastatic breast cancer 16 years ago with a prognosis of just a few months to live, yet here she is. :-) ). One way or another, we will get through. I find spending time on CH a great escape...love reading about cooking and food experiences, and I can check in from my iPhone even while hanging out in a hospital room or doctor's office.
re: jlhinwa
CH is a great distraction/hobby when life is very demanding. We are dealing with kidney failure here.
re: sandylc
Hugs to you, sandylc. That is really hard. We don't know exactly what we dealing with despite a 3-1/2 week hospital stay and a gazillion tests. Her docs joked about calling in Dr. House because she is such a "puzzle." Today the puzzle got a ticket back to the hospital by ambulance...sigh. Getting back to the chow, the hospital she is at has amazingly good food for both patients and hospital guests. The patients can order whatever they like, whenever they like, from a room service menu (well, as long as there are no dietary restrictions). They cook to order and their speed of service is impressive--and no gratuity allowed. :-)
re: jlhinwa
So sorry this has happened to you and yours. Hospital food lesson that I have learned: Order a bunch of stuff all at once and then eat only the things that show up the most edible!
Good Luck.
re: jlhinwa
Hahaha, my maiden (and now current) last name is only 5 letters, and a really common English word. NO ONE can pronounce it when reading it, or spell it when hearing it. Out of habit, I always spell it out whenever mentioning it.
When I married, I thought the new 5-letter name would be easier, because it wasn't a common word - it wasn't.
re: tracylee
tracylee, that is funny. My last name is Hiller. While infinitely easier than my previous name, I am still amazed at how people will mess it up. Miller, Heller, or my favorite (not!), Hitler.
I have a good friend whose last name is Lee. She continuously deals with people who are shocked to find out when they meet her that she is Caucasian and not Chinese. Crazy, huh?
re: jlhinwa
I can see how that would be hard.
I have a friend (Chinese/American) who's maiden name is Lee. We always joked that I should marry her brother so I could be Tracy Lee Lee!
Back to food, I spent a Thanksgiving dinner with her and her extended family when my folks were out of town. Her parents had owned a restaurant, and other than the marshmallows on the sweet potatoes catching on fire, the dinner was great!
Could you perhaps find a video clip to send to her where someone is talking about Sous Vide-ing, and says it 1000 times.
Sent in that excited "oh have you seen this!!?? Made me think of you!!" way, of course.
re: pikawicca
Yea, no angst just wondering.
re: pikawicca
And how do you pronounce "angst"? :)
Since I was a German major, mispronounced German words make me fidget a bit, and they have some tongue-twisters. Gewuerztraminer, anyone? Or Zigeunerschnitzel?
But I'd never correct someone, unless they tried to correct MY German pronounciation. Then I would have to take great pleasure in the misfortune of the soul who thought their German was better than mine as I gave them a German lesson :)
re: coney with everything
I cringe on the inside when I hear that "Ängst" or similar......!
re: coney with everything
Is "onxt" not proper?
re: 2roadsdiverge
It's like the a in car, but shorter.
re: 2roadsdiverge
Classic '80s song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSs63V...
re: 2roadsdiverge
I have only heard it pronounced this way and had to look it up. Apparently this is NOT an alternate pronunciation. Going to take some getting used to but hey I learned something new!
re: melpy
Isn't the American pronunciation different from German?
I would feel awkward saying, "onxt" when speaking English. I also say double entendre--duhbul en tahn drah when speaking English. When speaking French, I'd say doobl(e) entendr(e).
re: Jay F
Depending on the specific situation, I might try adding some other information so it didn't look like I was correcting the person. In this case, something like: "I saw a cooking show about sous vide. They said it is French for "under vacuum". It's amazing how many cooking terms come from French."
re: 2roadsdiverge
This is exactly what c oliver meant in the very first response in this thread, "in context."
re: Steve
Yes, and I was just saying that my context would be adding something informative, as opposed to asking a question ("So did you buy a sous vide machine? How much are they?") or providing affirmation ("Oh, I love sous vide too!").
And I see that I replied to the wrong poster in any event.
I have a few friends who's first language is not English or even of the European language group. On occasion I will let them know the preferred way to pronounce something. Other than that, unless I know someone is going to make a fool out of themselves (making some sort of presentation or toast, or ...) I leave well enough alone.
Generally speaking I would let it go. That's because I really couldnt give a shit if someone mispronounces a food word to me.
re: Harters
"Generally speaking I would let it go."
I'm not sure what that means, specifically. As far as I can tell, you are limited to:
1) Stop the conversation dead in its tracks
2) Change the subject
3) Avoid using the term
4) Intentionally mispronounce the word to follow suit.
How do you handle the situation?
re: Harters
You are the one who used the phrase "generally speaking." That's a direct quote. Is it so unusual for me to then ask for a specific example?
I already list four possible reactions that might come under the category of 'let it go.' They are all four quite different.
Do you use one or all of these strategies? Do you use another one I can't think of?
I am genuinely interested in how to handle this situation.
re: Steve
Let me try and explain what "letting it go" means where I am in the world. It would imply doing nothing and just carrying on the conversation, ignoring the fact that there had been an error.
Certainly none of your four suggestions would be "letting it go". As I said, I assume the phrase must imply something different where you are, but hope this fuller explanation helps your understanding of the phrase in British English.
re: Harters
I'm sorry about my confusion. Now I know you would carry on the conversation.
But how do you carry on a conversation about 'sous vide' and not pronounce it?
It seems to me you must either avoid saying it, say it incorrectly, or use the correct pronunciation.
Which would you do?
re: Harters
To the best of my knowledge, "letting it go" has the same meaning on this side of the pond as it does on yours and that would include Washington, D.C..
re: Harters
I think the question is when you repeat the word, do you say it correctly or the way the speaker does? Or do you avoid saying it altogether? Or just change the subject to avoid having to say it? I feel that way when someone might talk about bruschetta, to reuse my example and I want to add onto the conversation. I don't want to make the person feel bad, but I don't want to mispronounce it, either.
re: chowser
If the conversation continued and it fell to you to use the word, to not pronounce it correctly because of some weird conception of sensitivity would be ridiculous.
re: grampart
+1 grampart. To pronounce it other than your usual way of pronouncing a word would, indeed, be ridiculous.
My thanks for the clarification that the phrase has the same meaning on both sides of the Atlantic. I wonder if the British phrase being "wound up" is common on your side? ;-)
re: Harters
Thanks for the clarification. In other words, the same as the very first response in this thread. Pronounce it correctly "in context."
I was under the impression that Harters was suggesting a different approach.
re: grampart
"some weird conception of sensitivity would be ridiculous."
Maybe it's a woman thing to try to be more sensitive to the listener because that's exactly what I was doing when I added the latter part, explaining different approaches. It was clear to me what Steve was asking but Harter's initial response didn't answer the question. As Steve said, "letting it go" could mean many things. For Harter, it's not letting it drop, it's correcting the pronunciation by using it in conversation.
re: Harters
re: KaimukiMan
after doing some wind up. ;-).
re: bagelman01
Yes; me too. I'm childless but would only correct nieces/nephews if we were in the car together, without an audience.
re: bagelman01
Good point, I really hate when people correct me in front of others similar to any other feedback in public.
Rarely if ever. My husband sometimes pronounces a word in a questioning tone so I tell him if he said it right or not. Otherwise, I don't correct adults unless they're my employees or they've mangled a word so badly that I just have no idea what they're saying.
Unless it's immediate family, never. Hypocritical because I'd want to be corrected if I constantly pronounced a word incorrectly. Although, sometimes a person thinks he/she knows but doesn't. I've been corrected on bruschetta many times by the server in a restaurant. "You mean you want..."
re: chowser
"Hypocritical because I'd want to be corrected if I constantly pronounced a word incorrectly"
Excellent point: I'd want to be corrected immediately rather than going on with a blatant mistake. I believe it's called learning.
Especially with travel, it would be a really bad idea to have a grossly mistaken idea when someone could have easily corrected you. You might wind up being taken to the wrong province or state entirely. In food, you could wind up ordering the wrong dish.
re: Steve
Exactly. I'll revise my answer because it depends on the situation. No one likes a know it all who feels the need to correct other often but there are times when it's helpful. This reminded me of a recent one--a friend was going to interview at a place that makes Cornish pasties but she was saying pay-tees. I wished her good luck and all, then told her how it is pronounced and what pay-stees are. She burst out laughing and was thankful. A couple of the people in the group and never heard of Cornish pasties said they were wondering what kind of store she was going to work at.
Unless there is a reason to help 'em, like they're truly embarrassing themselves, I let it go. If I feel that I can save someone from hurt, I will pull 'em aside. I'd never do it in front of others. Though, I admit, sometimes, in Court, when opposing counsel mispronounced a word, I'd sometimes be a d* ck and work the word, correctly pronounced, into my next statement.
re: MGZ
I would seriously like an example of 'let it go.'
How do you 'let it go' in a situation like this:
Co-worker #1: I tried that suss veeedy (sous vide) last night and that meat was so tender!
Co-worker #2: Oh yeah, my partner loves it when I make things suss veedy at home.
Co-worker #3: MGZ, you're such a devoted foodie, what are your experiences with suss veedy?
MGZ: (fill in the blank)
re: grampart
I guess the best analogy I could draw would be construction related.
If I see a guy holdin' a piece of 'two by' with his thumb near the blade cutout on the chopsaw, I might suggest that he move it. On the other hand, if I see a guy carryin' some 'two by's' under his arm, I'm probably not gonna say a word. I figure he'll learn soon enough that it's less stress to rest 'em on a shoulder. In the former situation, I might help save a thumb, in the latter, well, he can always resort to some Ben Gay.
This is always tough, and I normally try not to do it, because I sound like enough of a blowhard without correcting people's pronunciation. But one thing I have contemplated is sending them some kind of link to something that does pronounce it correctly -- if you look up a sous vide cooking video, (not shilling, but CHOW has some, and there are a metic crapton on YouTube) and send her a link because you know she's interested, you can give her an example of someone pronouncing it correctly.
That way, she's not thinking it's you pronouncing it wrong. And it's not you correcting her pronunciation, it's just her getting that info from a third party source.
re: Jacquilynne
I'm experiencing an odd feeling, almost déjà vu.
A mod has said what I said : )
Another element of the discussion -- most words that are incorporated into English take on an "English pronunciation" instead of only-English speakers mangling the original-- Pwareto Reeeco anyone? -- which offers a further challenge to cooking terms, which can have:
a poncy French pronunciation,
a "correct" French pronunciation, and
a "flatter" English pronunciation.
What do Hounds choose?
re: Kris in Beijing
Not exactly sure, but there's way too much " poncy" out here already, so not that.
re: Kris in Beijing
You know how those Latino/a newscasters in the US will pronounce every single word in perfect Midwestern-flat English. But when they come upon a Spanish word or phrase they will suddenly whip out this dead-on perfect Spanish-accented turn. And then immediately pivot back to their English accent? They are lightning quick!
I am all for correct foreign pronunciation if there is no highly familiar English alternative. I wlll say caw-cut' with a French accent when pronouncing the word cocotte, instead of the rather English coh-caht. But I will say the familiar Paris instead of Pareee.
re: gingershelley
You shoulda seen the folks at my last gig when I sang the German version of 99 Red Balloons in flawless German.
Never fails to impress '-D
re: linguafood
re: linguafood
Hmm...can't sing Neunundneunzig Luftbalon auf Deutsch, will you settle for "Da da da, ich lieb dich nicht, du liebst mich nicht, uh huh"?
re: coney with everything
Trio and Da Da Da....had me hooked when I first saw the VW commercial and the video? Fahgettaboudit!!
re: grampart
Shocked to hear someone mention Trio after all these years....
ich lieb dich nicht du liebst mich nicht
re: Steve
This is a classic, too. Well, in Germany at least:
re: Steve
For any of you that have never had the pleasure of getting creeped out by this video. Strange? Definitely! Haunting? Somewhat. Over 30 years later and it still "reaches" me.
re: grampart
woudn't that be Fahrvergnügen?
re: Bkeats
I think it is pronounced: Fartfignewtons which are very different from burpless cucumbers.
re: Motosport
I love fartfignewtons. For some reason, however, my wife does not.
re: coney with everything
Aber natürlich, coney mit allem '-)
re: linguafood
ah, vielen dank, linguafood!
re: linguafood
Did you record it? Tried to find it just now.... :-)
re: linguafood
re: Harters
Well, I do shave my armpits (unlike dear Nena), and I'm not a brunette. But apart from that.... spot on, Harters :-D
re: linguafood
99 Luftbalons! Thanks for the 80's earworm. And now for the useless fact of the day - it was the German version that charted in the U.S., not the English "translation".
re: gingershelley
Not to mention Ofeibea Quist-Arcton!
It is tricky but after all no one knows every language and there are bound to be mishaps. As c oliver says repeating it correctly after the mispronunciation, or if you know the person really well just coming right out and saying, that's wrong, would work. I lived in New Orleans for a long time and am having trouble with fellow workers here in Texas saying cream instead of creme brulee, it drives me nuts!!
I'd work in the phrase, "the French pronunciation is {xxxxx}." I'd be pointed in not saying "the CORRECT pronunciation" to let her save some face. If I were the one mispronouncing a word, I'd want to learn it correctly, but I'd also appreciate some tact in pointing out my gaffe.
Like ordering a gimlet at some German cocktail bar, only to have the waiter say "a gymlet". Not worth my time.
re: Samalicious
And yet there are threads and threads where 'hounds practically fall over themselves correcting others. A generous crowd, indeed '-D
I would more than likely either let it go entirely or put the question on me ie: am I pronouncing this xyz word correctly.
Maybe out of that simple gesture we'll get to the bottom of the correct pronunciation. I know I've gotten into giggle matches over dialects with others and surprise, surprise we survived without issue.
How complicated does word life need to get? Patience, humor...works for me and mine. SMILE...amazing what a kind face can achieve.
Unless pronunciation is the topic of discussion, not only do I let it go, but I'll go to some effort to try to avoid embarrassing others by not bringing attention to their mispronunciations. Unless it's my BIL, of course. I'll correct him every time, because he's a pretentious ass.
re: ricepad
Ricepad, I, literally, laughed out loud for two minutes straight from your comment.
How about having one's pronounciation corrected by a waiter?
At a special dinner, I ordered several bottles of Veuve Cliquot, pronouncing it in the french manner, only to have the waiter respond "Oh, you mean Veu-Veee Cli-Cot".
No, I did not mean "Veu-Veee Cli-Cot", I meant exactly what I said but did not correct his mis-pronounciation since it would have made an awkward situation even more awkward (especially if he defended his position).
NB: I speak French.
re: Sherri
Punchline: It's a good thing you didn't ask for a bottle of Champagne from Reims.
re: Sherri
I've had waiters do that often. I just ignore them and say the word properly. In your specific case, I would have just repeated the order in the correct pronunciation.
If I don't know how to say it (I've never studied Italian, for example), then I'll just assume their pronunciation is correct, or equally as bad as mine, and let it go.
re: Sherri
I hope you left him a nice shiny penny for a tip
I've thought of this often over my lifetime.
I said a word that wasn't one once and our friends' wife corrected me. she also does that when I'm singing to a song and thought I knew the words but apparently I don't. I keep my mouth shut because it's not my business to correct. I'm at fault too sometimes.
these I hear all the time and think oh well...
all of 'the' sudden
this dish needs washed
get out the house
I have a famous cousin who won't toot his own horn, sing his own praises or discuss his wealth and stature. he would never correct anyone or call them out. I choose to shadow his demeanor however lacking I am.
re: iL Divo
Or "nucular". But I would never correct anyone because the mispronunciation is so common.
re: jettthecat
THAT is my biggest pet peeve. and even nuke-u-lar physicists say it that way ---> jimmy carter, being a notable graduate in nuclear physics..
re: alkapal
"W" pronounced that way also.
re: jettthecat
<because the mispronunciation is so common.>
Except who is the one mispronouncing it?
re: jettthecat
Let's get "re-luh-tor" and "chip-pole-tay" out of the way.
re: sandylc
Oh yes, "re-luh-tor." I am employed in that industry and am astonished at now many realtors cannot pronounce their own occupation. Sheesh!
re: jlhinwa
Some people must have a disconnect between what they hear/see vs. what they say; that's all I can figure out here. My mother says "drougth" instead of "drought"; she must see "th" rather than "ht".
re: sandylc
That is an interesting explanation, and one that makes more sense to me than general carelessness or ignorance.
re: sandylc
Dyslexia is a possible explanation, particularly in a language like English which has a complex orthography.
And even if dyslexia isn't issue, many of us read by paying more attention to the whole word, its shape, and context, and glossing over the individual letters.
re: sandylc
The "th" is actually the original pronunciation, and the form "drouth" survives in some British dialects. If your mother is neither British nor dyslexic (and she didn't grow up speaking Middle English in the 13th century), she may be restoring the regular form of the suffix, which is found in many abstract nouns in English: width, truth, health, wealth, filth, sloth, dearth, length, breadth, depth. (This also explains why many people say "heighth" instead of "height". It's non-standard in current-day English, but it's completely logical and sensible.)
re: DeppityDawg
She says "heighth" as well. But, oddly, she grew up in rural middle America. She has some college, but not much of it soaked in, from what I can tell!! She is quite far from being British! Historically, the area of her birth was settled by people from the Carolinas.
re: DeppityDawg
"abstract nouns" -- i like that classification. very interesting that the forms have the "th" ending.
is there a similar concept in other languages -- by that i mean a unique spelling marker to indicate the classification of the thing described as an "abstract" thing?
re: alkapal
There are many suffixes for forming abstract nouns in English, most of which are much more productive than "-th", for example "-ness", "-ity", "-hood", "-dom", "-ship", "-age", "-ment", etc. And yes, you can find the same thing in other languages, like German "-schaft", "-heit/-keit", "-tum", "-nis" or French "-té", "-age", "-eur", "-esse".
re: Motosport
Like in the Firesign Theatre album:
Computer: Please state your name.
Clem: Uh, Clem.
Computer: Thank you, "Uh Clem."
re: Motosport
Much time of my youth spent memorizing entire scenes of Firesign Theatre.
Near the end of the album (about a visit to a futuristic theme park), 30 minutes later he is subtly addressed by one of robots as "uh Clem."
re: Motosport
"um" is "you know's" cousin.
re: acssss
I thought it was "brus- ketta". You don't pronounce the r?
re: grampart
You do; I assume it was a typo.
re: grampart
You do pronounce the r - that was a typo. I was referring to the sh vs. the k
re: acssss
Whew, I thought I was pronouncing it correctly and then I read your post and felt dumb all over again!
re: acssss
My Italian teacher (with an Italian accent when she speaks English so it's obvious she knows the language), said she is often corrected with that. You would think when a native speaker says it, you'd go with it.
re: chowser
I'm with ya on the bruschetta. When someone mispronounces it, I ask them, "Well, do you say 'chi-anti'?" (pronouncing the "chi" instead of "key"). Drives me nuts!
re: chloebell
Hey Chloebell, I love your idea of giving an example of a word with similar pronunciation. I must remember to try this.
re: acssss
More like "brew-sketta" vs. "brew-shetta".
Me being the obnoxious friendly cousin/acquaintance/SO that always USED to correct other people's pronunciation or even meanings of words I know how it must irk you to hear the incorrect way of speaking all the time. Learned my lesson though, I don't do it anymore.
My husband and me have a recurrent joke about being me being sincere or polite, you're pick. As of late we've come to the middle ground of prudence.
In your case I would say something like "oh will you be so kind to share you're recipe for whatever sous vide (insert correct pronunciation). If she is a nice, open to learning and most of all, intelligent person, she will take a hint and correct herself. If she is not, then just let it go.
Some people are just not worth you're effort. And the pigs saying its a keeper in my list!! Thanks.
re: Mexcuk
I could make a lot of grammatical corrections here, but as you say "not worth the effort." :P
re: JoannaNYC
I am really truly sorry for the grammatical horrors I posted.
As a former unsolicited corrector I'm always open to the possibility of mistake and glad to be pointed to the right direction, grammatical or otherwise.
Note to self, check and recheck before you post.
re: JoannaNYC
It's certainly not worth the effort. That's why none of us do it. What upside could correcting folks have to you, right? After all, this is a quasi-spoken "conversation", not an article for publication.
re: MGZ
Oh thanks a lot, but being part of a family whose idea of a good meal talk is browsing the dictionary, a post with so many errors like the first I sent is just plainly unacceptable.
Anyways I do understand what do you mean about not being worth the effort of correcting things in a public "quasi-spoken" forum. It was a quasi-apology. :)
re: Mexcuk
did your family ever play "the dictionary game," where everyone (except the person whose turn it is to select an obscure word and write its definition) makes up a definition for the chosen word? the person who "knows" the word & definition then reads everyone's "definitions" from their slips of paper. you can get points by how many vote for your definition. i have never laughed so much.
one member of my family could always be identified because her definitions always related to design or antiques (she had a store). then another sister would almost invariably use "of or pertaining to" in crafting her (phony) definition.
If not sure how to pronounce a foreign word when ordering I'd say it in a questioning manner and hope to be corrected. As a former waitress, I might say the word correctly, in repeating the order, just to make sure we mean the same item if very mangled. If I know for sure what it was, would not do so, unless it came up naturally, as in "Would you like another bottle of Pinot Grigio, Sir?"
My children I corrected for pronunciation and grammar, and would still do so today, even in their 20's. How else will they learn? My brother and I still occasionally question or correct one another on meaning, context or pronunciation of obscure words rarely said aloud, but that is something I would not do with another person.
One of the most amusing times I had was when a group of people I knew from an online text-based game all gathered together here for a meet. Who knew that I had for years been mispronouncing in my head Druid as "drood" and rogue as "roog". These were words I had never spoken aloud and was corrected by my British friends. We laughed and had another drink.
re: JoannaNYC
On "This American Life," there was an entire program about going well into adulthood with childish misconceptions. Like pronouncing common words wrong. And people correcting them.
I cried from laughing at Act One, and the end is so moving I cried because I cried:
My first time at a Korean restaurant I was looking over the menu and trying to decide what to have. One of my friends suggested the "bulgogi", pronouncing it correctly (pool-GO-gee). I couldn't believe that was correct. I had little experience with the Korean language outside of the names of places and historical figures, but plenty with Chinese, Thai, and Vietnamese. It didn't sound like any other Asian word I had heard.
When the waitress came by I pointed and asked how it was pronounced. She said it and I was shocked that my friend was right. Then I actually said "Huh, that doesn't sound Korean to me."
She said "Of course it sounds Korean. It is Korean."
As a professional translator I want to drill my ears out with some of the pronunciations I hear. Same goes for people thinking that "le" and "la" are interchangeable.
Sadly I have yet to find a good correction method. I usually start with working the correct pronunciation into my next sentence, with no commentary. If that doesn't work, I usually say, "Actually, the word is French/Italian/whatever, and it's pronounced ___." There are people who continue to argue with me. I explain, gently, that I have several degrees in X language, have actually spent considerable time in X country and I KNOW HOW TO PRONOUNCE THE DAMN WORD. Still they mispronounce the word. Ugh.
re: PotatoPuff
Other than pedanticism, is there really a reason to actively correct anyone?
re: MGZ
To elucidate. I'm in the camp of not bothering because its too much effort. But if PotatoPuff wants to expend the effort to correct and educate, bully for him/her. If someone doesn't know, no harm in trying to teach. I don't think of that as being pedantic if you are sincere, but its a lot of work for very little reward.
re: Bkeats
There is indeed no reward - except to one's ego.
re: Steve
Yeah, that was a poor choice of word on my part. What I meant was someone who, in the grand scheme of things, is merely an acquaintance, like a coworker or a friend's date to a dinner party. Someone, who, is outside of your inner circle.
But, as you noted, you feel it's relevant to help others learn. Why not tell the homeless guy you give a quarter to that he mispronounced a word?
I reiterate the basic question, why should any of us have the audacity to correct someone for a trifling violation? What is the inherent value to the one who "knows better"?
I realize it's outside the Chowhound rules of conduct, but should I start posting corrections to everyone's misspellings and grammatical errors?
re: MGZ
As has already been said upthread, repeating the word in context with a correct pronunciation is easy, and you'd surely have to do it anyway to continue in conversation.
I am not sure about your 'homeless guy' analogy since I've never experienced that, but let me give you an analogy that I have experienced:
Somebody asks for directions, and they mispronounce the name or street they are looking for. Do you continue the mispronunciation? I will tell you, in another language a mispronunciation can cause a good deal of confusion, but even in the same, it's probably better to nip it in the bud so that they don't continue having problems getting lost.
re: Steve
Good point there. I get asked for directions a fair amount and we have some unusual American Indian names for streets, etc. I definitely correct people. The next person they ask might just write them off as a nitwit and give them bad directions. In that case, I think it's helpful. Foreign words, eh, less so.
re: Hobbert
re: Hobbert
Hysterical, Hobbert. I just had lunch with a Phila. friend who was talking about a place in NJ called "Byoonah Vistuh." Never heard of the place before today, and now a second time.
re: Hobbert
It's one thing when you can get the point across, but if someone has a heavy accent, it can be hard enough to understand what they're saying, let alone if it's pronounced incorrectly. If someone ordered pate de fois gras the way it's written in English, it would be almost impossible to understand. OTOH, when my English friend ordered BBQ chicken as that, it's easily understood. It still didn't stop me from giving him a hard time (after the waitress left) but I figured it was pay back for the year they gave me a hard time for my Americanisms.
re: chowser
That's true. Correcting others is a fine line. If its truly hard to understand, I'll often say "oh you mean xyz?" just so that I can confirm what they're saying. The BBQ is pretty funny, though. Totally makes sense!
re: Hobbert
"Correcting others is a fine line."
Exactly. Avoid being a know it all but be helpful.
re: chowser
"Exactly. Avoid being a know it all but be helpful."
Especially if someone tells you they are serving a rag-out for dinner.
re: chowser
Yup. Exactly this.
re: Hobbert
Hahaha, it drove me crazy growing up near Byoony Vistuh! I was sure it was just the people in that neighborhood who pronounced it wrong.
re: tracylee
In Minneapolis we have "Nicollet" pronounced "Nick-lit".
re: sandylc
what can you expect from a city with a Sioux-Greek name?
Nichollet was a French scientist who mapped this area.
re: alkapal
We do that to annoy foreigners, alkapal.
Have a try at this surname - Cholmondeley :-)
re: Harters
does it end up sounding like cyril barmy fortheringay phipps ? LOL
edit: CHUMLEY! of course, why didn't i see that?
re: Harters
Stately homes are killers, especially the ones that are pronounced the way they should be.
re: Harters
Nothing is weirder than "Worcestershire." sauce.
re: Harters
I lived almost next door to "Chumley" when there were all sorts of black cars on the roads nearby in the late 80's and early 90's..........guess who came to visit?
re: FriedClamFanatic
sidney poitier?
re: MGZ
I think audacious is a bit much. If I know something you don't know, why is it audacious for me to tell you so? As long as I'm not mean or rude, how is it any different from saying, "No, that restaurant is on Chestnut Street, not Walnut Street"?
I also don't get why "lesser" acquaintances aren't deserving of my care. Since we're not best friends, you don't deserve my help? Or I shouldn't care about you as a person? Seems harsh.
I personally would prefer to be corrected, even if it's embarrassing because I discover I've been mispronouncing a word my entire life. I find this happens when I've only ever read the word and never heard it aloud. "Akin" was one I had wrong from high school up to my late 20s.
re: LisaPA
My husband has an old friend whose last name is Basil. I heard him speak of him but never saw it written. One day, I saw it and said, "I don't think that's baysil, it's normally bah-sil." Yes, my husband had been mispronouncing it for close to 20 years. Sometimes it's good to be told.
re: chowser
Mr. Dumas?
re: chowser
Apparently, Basil, didn't think it worth the trouble of correcting your husband.
Edit: I s'pose my point is do you think that Allen Toussaint cares how you pronounce his name if you're buyin' a ticket?
re: MGZ
Obviously. But, my husband would have appreciated it. I called a guy at college Mark, all year and it turned out his name was Robert. I was embarrassed and would have appreciated a quick correction. I guess it's like people not telling you you have toilet paper on the bottom of your shoe--they don't care but I'd appreciate it.
I had no idea who Allen Toussaint is but if someone is putting money in his pocket, he probably doesn't care what he's called. But friendships are a little different and it is nice to get their names correct at some point.
re: chowser
"I ha[ve] no idea who Allen Toussaint is . . . ."
Go treat yourself and listen to some of his music. You owe it to yourself.
re: chowser
That was my dog's name. Someone once wrote a card to us and included him. They spelled it "Bazzle".
re: sandylc
I wonder how they would have pronounciated (sic) Oregano.
re: sandylc
I like Bazzle better.
re: LisaPA
First, I will confess that hyperbole and I have a long, sordid history. I think we first met shortly after I learned my eleventh word.
I s'pose the distinction between the way I see the issue and others do is that I just feel that certain minor pronunciation violations are irrelevant. In the past, I would correct folks, and, more often than not, it seemed to dampen the relationship. Maybe it's just me, but I have no interest in suggesting to anyone that I am superior to 'em. As I illustrated above, if it's not likely to hurt 'em, I'm not gonna do somethin' that might.
Another example would be the word "amenable". The preferred pronunciation, as I'm sure you know, is with a long "e" - "a - meen . . .". I hear people say it as "a - men . . .". If I think that they might already respect my knowledge and education and therefore know that my correction is comin' from a "good" place, I might try a subtle correction. Nevertheless, if they don't really know me, I'm want to just let it slide. It's trifling and I'd rather not come across as tryin' to be the "smartest guy in the room" (I know I am, so I don't need to spread my feathers).
I do see and respect the points that you, Steve, and others have been making. At bottom, though, I think that the divergence point here is predicated upon what each of us thinks of as helpful. My approach is practical. Yes, tellin' someone how to pronounce the name of a street to make 'em more understandable to "locals" might be a solid idea, but tellin' someone that their pronunciation of a "close enough" phrase just has a sense of pomposity to me.
*Funny how pronounce and pronunciation are the same words with a weird spelling difference, huh?
re: Steve
<I am not sure if anyone mentioned a stranger>
Hell, I'll mention a stranger. The other day, I was standing at the bus stop and noticed two young men trying to make sense of the posted schedule. Because I am a helpful (read: pedantic) sort, I asked where they were trying to get to. Houston Street, which they pronounced H-you-ston Street, as any sane person would. But here in Manhattan, as you well know, it's How-ston Street. So I corrected them. "That's fucked up," one said. "It is," I said, "but if you want people here to understand you, that's how you say it." I hope anyone who hears me screw up a pronunciation does me the same service.
re: small h
New York City's Houston Street is not named after Sam Houston. It is named after William Houstoun, who was from Georgia, and pronounced as you said: HOW-ston.
re: 2roadsdiverge
Still, it's a mispronunciation of the original name Houston. Should have the long "you" sound. The name is Scottish, derived from the time of Guillame le Conquerant. Hugh de Padivan, an aide de camp, was granted an estate west of Glasgow. The French name Hugh is pronounced "oog." Not being able to pronounce the name, locals called it Houston (literally Hugh's Town), and that's the origin of the name.
I think New Yorkers should correct the Southerner's mispronunciation. Who won the Civil War, anyway?
re: sandylc
re: sandylc
Well, English spelling doesn't make any sense, so I'm not surprised. Like the good old joke about how to spell the word "fish" in English: ghoti.
German, OTOH, is pretty much always pronounced exactly the way it is written. Bummer about the tricky grammar, tho :-D
re: Steve
Many people have last names that are no longer pronounced the same way they were originally. Names change over time. His name was Houstoun and was pronounced Howse-ton. Something named after him should be pronounced the way he did.
Now, the change in spelling (Houstoun to Houston) should be commented on.
re: 2roadsdiverge
my dad's middle name was houghton, and it was pronounced "how-ton."
re: PotatoPuff
"Same goes for people thinking that "le" and "la" are interchangeable"
That'd sort of be me. I travel to France and Belgium most years and don't speak very good French (and almost no Dutch). I regard it as a great achievement when I can remember the main words I need to say. Generally, I have little idea whether a word is a "la" or a "le". But, so long, as I can ask for food, lodging directions and the emergency services, I am happy. I've not had anyone correcting me in the last 20 years
re: Harters
All I know about "la" and "le" is one works in Scrabble and the other doesn't.
re: Harters
If you haven't seen/heard him already, David Sedaris has a couple of milk-from-your-nose-funny pieces on trying to learn French noun gender. They are in "Me Talk Pretty One Day". IMO, like Garrison Keillor's work, it is best on audiobook.
re: greygarious
but he's still damn good print-format reading - that guy kills me. and definitely illustrates the confusion English speakers find regarding gender specific nouns.
re: PotatoPuff
How about those who skip "le" and "la" entirely and use "les" (or to them, "lay") for every word, singular or plural?
I try not to correct others, but honestly, why does anyone bother to use a word that they haven't learned to pronounce? I don't have very much education, but I am always interested in learning more and attempting to be correct.
re: sandylc
"why does anyone bother to use a word that they haven't learned to pronounce?"
why not? It's like saying why would someone speak a word they don't know how to spell. Sometimes the two just don't happen together as one learns language.
re: sandylc
<<I try not to correct others, but honestly, why does anyone bother to use a word that they haven't learned to pronounce?>>
because the world would be a boring place?
Seriously- maybe they don't know they are pronouncing it wrong. Maybe it is not their first language. Maybe it's their accent. Maybe they saw it on a menu or sign for the first time and no knowing the 'correct" pronunciation wasn't going to stop them from ordering it.
I know I've replied a lot on this thread already, but how about taking it from the opposite perspective:
If during a conversation about fashion I pronounced Versace like 'ver-sayss' I'd be kind of ticked off nobody corrected me. Instead, people just laughed behind my back.
Of course, nothing like that has ever happened to me, he said sheepishly.
re: Steve
In that scenario and the one you gave about directions, I would most def. appreciate being corrected. The point being, if I'm being foolish or going down the wrong path-kindly speak up to help a girl out. But, if you're hellbent on correcting the way I talk, accent and all, at some point I may tune you out because it's just as annoying to hang with a nitpicker as it is to lose your last nerve over insignificant but easily laughable moments.
I was in the Asian market today and the cashier who knows me well-she & I have this on going word exchange during checkout-a long standing let's play with words. She teaches me, I teach her. It's fun, I look forward to it. We laugh.
re: Steve
<If during a conversation about fashion I pronounced Versace like 'ver-sayss' I'd be kind of ticked off nobody corrected me.>
I've absolutely given up on people who don't pronounce Ralph Lauren's name correctly. They keep pronouncing it wrong no matter how many times I tried.
HINT: it's Bronxian, not French.
I say as long as the pronunciation/meaning/context is clear enough to be understood, let it slide. I may repeat back "oh yeah I love (insert proper form here) one of these days, I'll make extra of my version and bring lunch, sounds cool"
as in ignoring a certain Tex-Mex grilled dish sometimes sadly known as "fa-gEE-tas" in some parts, while offering tips on the level of hardwood smoke.
re: hill food
Better than "fuh-JYE-tuhs"!
re: hill food
I get tripped up on gyros. Not because I don't know how to pronounce it but no one knows what I'm saying unless I say "jie ro" at certain restaurants.
Frankly..............growing up in a place where nearby cities of Gloucester, Leominster, Worcester and Leicester often were garbled, I wouldn't give it much worry
re: lamb_da_calculus
re: Sherri
"I've heard it both ways" is a catchphrase on the TV show "Psych". The lead character tries to sound smarter than he is, and when he is corrected he says that line.
re: 2roadsdiverge
My darling friend may pre-date the TV show since I remember her saying this from the 1970s. Regardless of timeframe, it is a useful phrase.
re: Sherri
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that's where it originated. Just that I giggle when they say it.
re: 2roadsdiverge
re: lamb_da_calculus
I'm with lamb - this is also my go-to response if someone's pronunciation is really killing me. I always play the ditz: "Are you sure it's sousss vidde? I've only heard it pronounced sous vide before, but I don't know." and then I give them about 30 seconds before I pull out the dictionary.com app on my phone and say, "I'm sorry, this is just driving me nutso that I might have been pronouncing it wrong all this time. Can I just look it up?" I've had my own pronunciation corrected before, and when done in a way that allows me to save face, I very much appreciate it; when I'm just called out on it, I despise both the correction and the person doing it...
re: thursday
What a tactful way to handle it. Love it!
Usually, no. If someone asks, then yes, I will correct them. Usually, they can sense it (if they know how to self-reflect). When they ask something I don't understand, then I have this "I have no idea what you just said" look. Then, it is up to them to decide if they want to learn the correct pronunciation.
re: Ruthie789
ITA. For an English speaker not educated in the French language from a young age, French is virtually impossible to pronounce properly. I just let it go.
I automatically correct anyone, anytime they use the abomination/bastardization "sherbert".
"Unless you're speaking about your overconfident friend 'Bert', and you happen to find him delicious, please try that word again."
And yes: I get a *lot* of strange looks, but I simply don't care, as each time I hear that monstrosity uttered, I die just a little bit more inside.
re: boagman
"the abomination/bastardization "sherbert"."
That is the WORST! But, even though I'm pretty much of a Mrs Know-It-All and correct pretty freely, I usually let that one go. Partly it's because I'm stunned at some of the people who use it, and partly because I know that the people who use it would be offended and defensive (is there a name for that figure of speech?), and also I figure they're beyond hope. For Italian words (shall we talk about "brushetta" [sic]?), I don't hesitate to correct, since that is my area of acknowledged expertise. I understand not everybody wants me to be on duty all the time, but neither do I want people being able to defend their mispronunciations on the grounds that they said it that way in front of mbfant and she didn't object. And of course I would correct tourists looking for Houston Street, just as I would hope to be corrected in a similar situation.
re: mbfant
And, see, when someone says "brushetta", while I do wince a bit, I can sometimes let that one go, since *phonetically*, it makes sense. It's *wrong*, but it makes sense in a wrong way, so I might or might not interject on that one.
"Sherbert", however, is an automatic "This person must be blind, stupid, or both!" response from me, because there is absolutely *zero* justification for it. I try to correct kindly, and usually do, but you know that there's *always* that one truly misinformed, absolutely-certain-of-themselves person who'll defend themselves because they *know* it's spelled the way they're pronouncing it. They just *know*. Correct them, and it truly is a battle of wills, right up until the point where the dictionary comes out...and they *still* insist that they're right!
"This is America, and I can say it any way I want to!"
That's right, moron...and I can label you a "Completely Lost Cause" for the same reason. The difference? Only one of us is actually correct. ;)
You have *no idea* how badly I want to run into someone named "Bert" who does this. I believe that a hole might be ripped into the fabric of space and time, were this to happen. And it'd be *worth* it. ;)
re: boagman
I absolutely hear you, but I tend to let the lost causes go and correct where there's hope. Incidentally, my husband, who is Italian, wants me to correct his English and is often irked when I don't. But sometimes I don't correct when I feel fluency is more important than accuracy. "Brushetta" galls me particularly because it is a relatively new word in the US, that is, without an honorable Italian-American tradition. Since it arrived directly from Italy in standard Italian, not dialect, why strip it of its correct pronunciation, which is no more difficult for anglophones than the wrong one. There is an Italian-American food called stromboli, accent on the penult, clearly named for the Sicilian island of Stromboli (accent on the antepenult), but I can live with that (as if I had a choice) because it's been around for generations and you can't fight City Hall. What does gall me, however, is that the English narration of the Roberto Rossellini film with Ingrid Bergman, Stromboli, pronounces the island's name wrong. How they got away with that is beyond me.
re: mbfant
"How they got away with that is beyond me."
Because it's so insignificant?
re: MGZ
And in the long-run we'll all be dead. But Stromboli was the name of a movie by a major Italian director with a major Hollywood star, and in the English-language version the name of the film, which is the same as the name of the island, was mispronounced, not because it was difficult, but because whoever was in charge of the narration didn't ask an Italian or consult a reference book. And nobody picked up the error or considered it worth correcting. Shoddy work. Worse than sherbert.
re: mbfant
"And nobody picked up the error or considered it worth correcting."
That does suggest somethin' about how relevant it was to most people, no?
re: mbfant
I like many others first saw 'brushetta' in written form (on a container of Italian style salsa). I never heard it pronounced by an authentic Italian speaker. It wasn't until I came across discussions like this that I learned the Italian pronunciation and proper usage.
"souSSS viDDDe" can arise in the same way, seeing the written form before hearing it. Not all of us know the rules for pronouncing French. I half jokingly use "drop have the letters and use the rest'.
If you are upset about Americans adding an 'r' to 'sherbet', are you equally bothered by Italians (and French and Spanish) dropping the 'h'?
re: paulj
"If you are upset about Americans adding an 'r' to 'sherbet', are you equally bothered by Italians (and French and Spanish) dropping the 'h'?"
Nope. Apples and oranges. Sherbet/sherbert and, say, caramel/carmel are single words that native speakers are pronouncing (and spelling) in a way that has not (yet) become the accepted standard. Dropped "h" is done across the board by entire populations trying to speak English and finding that sound difficult to make (for some reason). I congratulate them for their efforts, especially given the irregularity of English. Many native speakers of English drop the h as well.
re: mbfant
"Zerbet, cerbet, shurbet, sherpet, sherbette, and sarbet, among others, are all found in the Oxford English Dictionary's historical examples. Sherbert is also listed,"
re: paulj
But both the page you cite and the edition of the Oxford Dictionary I have on my phone (I can check the unabridged in the morning) list sherbert but call it a misspelling.
So what about "carmel" for caramel? Doesn't that get anybody's goat?
re: mbfant
"So what about 'carmel' for caramel? Doesn't that get anybody's goat?"
re: Jay F
'car-ml' v 'carra-mel'
Except if you live in the upper Midwest. The use of 3 syllables is strongest in the American South and New England, weak elsewhere.
question # 4
re: sandylc
Why don't you speak the same way? Presumably you heard her say those words when you were learning to speak. Were there other influences like your father? Or did you correct yourself in school?
re: paulj
Oh, wow, you open up a lot here! I distinctly remember (and resent) figuring it out early in school, like kindergarten or so, that I had been taught everything.....wrongly (or is it wrong?).
For example..."li-berry" for library....
I have paid entirely too much attention to language, especially spoken, since then.
So, to answer your question, I began correcting myself in early grade school, then continued as I moved around and listened to others.
I still don't say everything correctly! Who does? Ha.
I really do enjoy listening to grammar and accents. It's hard to stop, actually. I took a university linguistics class a couple of years ago and it was fascinating.
Long answer to a short question.
re: mbfant
There are native languages that do not use the "h" as American English does, which makes learning to pronounce those words in English challenging. My Norwegian dad emmigrated when he was 27. He probably spent more time on the "th" sound than anything else....up 'til he died, I could tell when he was really tired because his "th's" became "t's." Much to is chagrin.
re: mbfant
It doesn't help that they pronounce Freschetta as Freshetta.
re: boagman
<"Sherbert", however, is an automatic "This person must be blind, stupid, or both!" response from me, because there is absolutely *zero* justification for it.>
I find it easy to imagine that someone from Long Island or New Jersey who, when faced in adulthood with trying to drop the accent of his youth, might assume there's an "r" in the second syllable of "sherbet." Because it's all about putting "r"s back in when you try to lose that accent. And I'm someone who should know.
For years, I thought "sherbet" was spelled, and sounded just like "sherbert." They can sound very much the same in NJ and NY.
re: Jay F
From the OnLine Dictionary:
sher·bet (shûrbt)
1. also sher·bert (-bûrt) A frozen dessert made primarily of fruit juice, sugar, and water, and also containing milk, egg white, or gelatin.
2. Chiefly British A beverage made of sweetened diluted fruit juice.
3. also sherbert Australian An alcoholic beverage, especially beer.
re: boagman
When I was a kid, there was a ice cream shop nearby called Herbert's Sherbet. The second word, as I recall, was always pronounced with two R's. It was confusing to me because at home the dessert was always called "sherbet," and my dad loved the pineapple variety so the word was in regular use. No real point here, just a story...
re: mbfant
re: chowser
ditto. fortunately, "sorbet" came along and saved me the trouble ;-)
re: Bkeats
OK, next someone's going to market "soybert"!
re: chowser
i'm with you, chowser. i didn't know until i was in my forties that it was "sherbet." i'd ALWAYS heard "sherbert" growing up, in the south.
re: mbfant
The one that really sets my teeth on edge (and surely yours too, mbfant) is MARSCAPON for mascarpone. Why Americans think it's ok to just randomly move the R back a syllable is beyond me. I actually had to correct my brother (who is a chef and should know better) on this one at Christmas, because he was insisting that I was pronouncing it incorrectly (despite the fact that I'm an opera singer, have studied Italian and Italian diction intensively in Italy AND spend at least an hour a day singing in Italian). Sadly, though he admitted that I "might be right," he didn't correct himself, saying that "all chefs pronounce it my way, and they won't understand me if I say it your way." ARGH.
re: biondanonima
Don't you pronounce the "e" on the end?
Also, I have a friend who pronounces chipotle CHIPLOTE He moves the L back the way your brother does with the R.
re: Jay F
In Italian, the E on the end is pronounced (an "eh" sound). Americans often drop that E, which is annoying, but IMO forgivable/understandable since many Italian-American dialects drop final vowels. It's not nearly as annoying (to me) as the arbitrary moving of the R. And don't even get me started on the bastardizations of chipotle I hear all the time. Or spaetzle. The list goes on.
re: biondanonima
Dropping the ending drives my Italian teacher crazy because we have so many Italian Americans in the class and that's how they learned, or as one guy puts it "Eh, it's Brooklynese!"
My friend, who also studied voice and learned Italian has problems w/ focaccia because she thinks of alla lucia. She said sometimes w/out thinking, it'll come out foh' ca chee'uh but then she corrects herself.
re: biondanonima
I starting making spaetzle from a Joy of Cooking recipe years before I heard anyone else say the word. While I must have heard it half a dozen times on TV, I'm still unsure about the proper pronunciation. I've never had occasion to ask a German speaker about the word.
So for me, the following tasks rank, from easy to hard:
- make spaetzle without a recipe
- spell it without looking it up
- pronouncing it without fear of embarrassing myself in front of someone like you.
re: hill food
I thought it was Shpetz-luh. Wrong, I guess?
re: sandylc
I thought it was SPATEzl (no "e"). But I know no German, beyond your basic "Heil, Hitler," "einsatzgruppen," "sonderkommando," and "Juden." Oh, and "Ach Du LIeber, Augustine."
My grandfather was from Austria. When he came over, he must have learned English quickly, as he would not allow German to be spoken in his home, not even by his sister and her husband.
re: sandylc
Sandy, you are correct. In German, an initial S plus a consonant always has a "sh" sound. So, shpetz-luh is correct. The unaccented final syllable (known as a schwa) can be pronounced as anything from an "eh" to an "uh" depending on regional accents.
As for the two vowel issue, in this case the "ae" is there because the true spelling of the word requires an umlauted a (Spätzle). If you are too lazy to go hunt down the umlauted symbol when using an American keyboard (which I usually am), then you use the vowel that is supposed to have an umlaut, followed by an e, to spell the word. The pronunciation of ä (a with an umlaut) is always "eh."
re: biondanonima
Excellent tutorial. Thanks!
re: biondanonima
Well, I was so far off on my pronunciation of it. I'm hoping I've been given the right thing, given how I've ordered it, in restaurants, and not something entirely different!
re: biondanonima
Well, unless you are from the north, then hill food would be right.
But since spaetzle is a decidedly southern dish, not many northerners would probably say it anyway :-)
re: linguafood
Really? I don't think I've ever heard an regional dialect/accent where the "sh" wasn't present in words starting with s+consonant. I haven't spent that much time north of Berlin, though - Kiel, Hamburg, Bremen, Oldenburg, but no more than a few days in each city - probably not enough time to catch onto the regional accent. Plus, I spent most of my time at the opera houses, and the opera staff is definitely not guaranteed to be locals.
re: biondanonima
Yep. The northerners "sstolpern über den sspitzen sstein".
Might be dying out, tho, for all I know. My dad was born in Bremerhaven and never lost that dialect.
re: linguafood
Very interesting! I'll have to listen for it next time I'm up that way.
re: linguafood
I seem to recall from my days in Munich (many years ago) that Bavarians pronounced it more like "SHPAYtsul." Odd word for one of my favorite noodles, and so easy to make at home.
re: pikawicca
Oh, the Bavarian dialect is a thing of its own. I mean, they turn "eins, zwei, drei" into "oanz, zwoa, droa". 'nuff said '-D
re: linguafood
The first time I went to Munich I seriously thought I had gotten lost and ended up in Poland or something. Couldn't understand a WORD.
re: linguafood
Yeah, when we spent a summer in Kiel, years after my Munich stint, I couldn't believe they were speaking the same language. People looked at me like I had two heads whenever I opened my mouth to speak.
re: pikawicca
A common sentiment outside of Bavaria (our version of Texas, sorta).
re: linguafood
no! I was wrong! WRONG WRONG WRONG! I was working 3rd shift when I typed that and was never quite in synch. Sh-P. mea culpa.
re: sandylc
whoops - typo - SHP indeed. (golly am I embarrassed)
ehh I suppose there's a region that doesn't pronounce 'SP...' as 'SHP...'
re: biondanonima
OK, I have to ask -- were you ever on a low-carb forum... like around 04, inquiring about places to eat in Berlin?
re: linguafood
Possibly. I do low-carb and I spend a lot of time in Berlin, although I started going to Germany regularly in 2008, not 2004. I don't ever recall asking about low-carb options in Berlin, though - Germany is probably the low-carb friendliest place I've ever been! :)
re: biondanonima
Hmmm. Well, possible that there is another opera singer who had/has recurring engagements in Berlin. You'd likely remember if it was you, b/c I think I sent that *other* one a PM with tips...
re: linguafood
Oh, there are a million of us - or at least it seems that way when you're auditioning for a job. Germany has about 100x as many jobs available as the US, so American singers flock there.
re: biondanonima
Cool. Who knows, maybe I'll get a chance to hear ya this summer... tho we tend to be there when theaters and operas are in summer recess. Wah.
re: biondanonima
I think he explained why - "all chefs pronounce it my way, and they won't understand me if I say it your way."
Ultimately the point to using words like this is communication, which is a cooperative act between speaker and listener. Your audience as a singer is different from his. For your brother, MARSCAPON is an English word; it has lost its Italian roots.
Language is not static. If it were you'd be singing in Latin, not Italian. A chef saying 'marscapon' is no more of an 'error' than countertenor singing the role of a Roman general in Italian while dressed as a British soldier.
re: sandylc
<ow fast should language change>
As fast and as slow as people want to.
Rules are often established in a matter of days and weeks, like LOL or ROFL which came about really fast. Describing poor video quality as "filmed by a potato" also appeared in a very short period of time, yet everyone pretty much knows it now on youtube.
re: sandylc
That chef brother preferred to use 'marscapon' precisely because he needed to communicate. The rule 'follow Italian pronunciation' would hinder that communication.
re: paulj
oh, but I disagree with that. *IF* the name of that cheese eventually became anglicized to the point that it was spelled with the R in that position, then sure...it would be right. But as long as you're pronouncing a word written Mascarpone, it's just wrong. super-wrong. Like the common, lazy mispronunciations of nuclear and realtor.
It's just such a crazy mistake. It's one thing not to know how to pronounce vowels in a foreign language....i'm certainly guilty of that! But simply spitting out consonants in the right order? If you aren't dyslexic, I just don't see why anyone would screw that up.
re: danna
However it arose, the 'marscapone' version has probably spread by word-of-mouth. People hear friends and family use it, and follow suit. That was the usual way that words spread. Few of us are in the habit of checking whether way we say familiar words matches with the spelling. As Deppity shows, we usually ignore those differences.
Evidently you are one of those people who do check, and are bothered when others don't do the same. Are you a stickler on manners as well? :)
re: biondanonima
You must really then love that mutz or mutzarel cheese!
I would correct someone whom I know closely - for his/her benefit - but wouldn't otherwise bother; it is hard to do so without appearing to be a pedant or, worse, someone who thinks that knowing a token word or two is a mark of distinction and sophistication (e.g. the absurdity of pronouncing and mispronouncing Moet)
I don't.
Unless you speak fluent French, German, or Italian, Japanese, Portuguese, etc. I do not expect you to know the correct pronunciation, or perhaps even the meaning of some foreign words. Flying in and out of Europe does not necessarily make one a native speaker, does it ?
" Commment allez vous " frequently overheard along the Champs d' Elysees during the summer tourist season, does not actually mean " Where's the menu ? "
As an example, I've found in my travels that most North Americans can pronounce the word " Cuisine " in a reasonable fashion, including Texas.
But what does it actually translate to ? Is it cooking, method, menu, ethnic style, or kitchen.
Sounds like this person might have a lisp, as in one of those people who let out a shrieking whistle every time they pronounce something with the letter "s".
I would say something like "oh, you mean 'sous vide'?" (pronouncing it correctly). Then be like "I think that's how it's pronounced - here, let me look it up on google just to double check...".
I understand they can't help it in most cases, but those that have this lisp don't need to go around saying stuff like "suzy sells sea shells by the sea shore" all day long neurotically, and driving everyone else nuts around them.
re: Atomic76
So, please help me to understand. Are you actually asserting the notion that if someone has a speech impediment, you should correct their words? Tell 'em not to use certain words? That's like tellin' someone in a wheelchair how they could run better. Please, tell me us didn't really mean to be so cruel?
re: MGZ
Sorry I didn't mean to come off as mean. Sometimes people get a little overly emphatic when trying to pronounce something non-english. Giada Delaurentis gets made fun of a lot for this, over enunciating the heck out of Italian words. When the OP mentioned "snake like" it reminded me of a lisp.
re: Atomic76
I've had many conversations with her and she doesn't have a lisp. I haven't said anything because it doesn't bother me and she's just so excited about but I did overhear a colleague semi-poking fun that she was saying like that without any mention by me which was my whole motivation for even contemplating telling her. You may not judge but perhaps can save someone from judgment by others, seems legitimate to me.
re: fldhkybnva
that speaks volumes about the colleague who makes fun behind her back (because i'm CERTAIN he/she doesn't do it in front of her).
re: alkapal
Yea, it really does and no he doesn't say it in front of her which is unfortunate that he's judging but I just assume people like that are lurking who would not only make fun of her behind her back but embarrass her to her face as well. I am thankful for the person who let me know when I was 15 that the word was not "omniPOTENT" but that the syllables were less individual emphasized.
re: fldhkybnva
Thing is, I'd actually be way more prone to say something to the d*ckhead who's makin' fun of her behind her back, than to correct her for her mispronunciation.
re: fldhkybnva
Sounds fair, kind of like telling someone that they have spinach stuck in their teeth, just trying to save them some embarrassment.
I have a friend who always says "all ah den-tay", which is even funnier because her family is all Italian.
I thought of this thread a couple of weeks ago when I met up with some former co-workers for lunch. As usual, a few of us were discussing cooking. One guy was explaining how he had cooked a large cut of meat (I don't remember what) and I finally said: "Oh, sous vide?". "Yeah!". I'm thinking that he may have thought others in the conversation might not know what it was. And I pronounced it correctly, LOL
"Croissant" is the word that I find causes perhaps the greatest agitation. I think most people are fully aware that it is not pronounced "cressahnt" or whatever incorrect pronounciation they give. So I suspect you have people, afraid of trying and failing, actually deliberately getting it wrong. Better to just say "crescent roll" perhaps? I plead guilty to that sometimes myself, depending on the company I'm in.
re: MagicMarkR
For fun, go with my parents' pronunciation: croy-sunt.
re: MagicMarkR
it really doesn't matter except to complete fuss pots who need a surgical removal of an unfortunately placed object....
the rest of us know what you mean. and we're cool. call them what ya want, just don't burn them.
re: hill food
"The rest of us know what you mean. and we're cool. call them what ya want, just don't burn them."
Thumbs up. More importantly, can someone tell me where to get a good one at the Shore? I'll call it anything you want. I'll study French* for a few days before I go order it. I just miss good ones.
*Actually, that might not work. I almost didn't graduate High School 'cause French caused me such grief. At one point, I even thought about tryin' to propose an intimate encounter with the teacher in return for not failing me.
It seemed like such an 80s movie way out of my dilemma. I mean Sister Joan Marie was in her late forties, had a couple thick moles on her face, and was not very pleasant as a person. But, I was an eighteen year old boy. . . .


text:
Chattering Teeth
Chattering Teeth
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These Wind Up Chattering Teeth make a great milestone birthday gag gift!These Chattering Teeth with long pink toes will give everyone a good laugh at the next birthday bash you attend. Our 1 3/4 inch Wind Up Chattering Teeth have the words SPARE PARTS written across the top and the teeth chatter and walk after you wind them up.
Please allow ample time for delivery. Our ship date for this product is noted in your shopping cart. Many items are shipped separately, so please allow extra time for these items to arrive. Shipping charges are based on the value of the merchandise and not the number of shipments. For additional shipping information, contact our Customer Service Department at (firstname.lastname@example.com or 1-800-314-8794).
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We used these on our tables for our over the hill party. Everyone loved them and a lot of them disappeared also....some people took them home. Very cute and funny!
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I used these as favors at my husbands 70th birthday party. Ha to toss out about half of them as they didn't work. People had fun with the ones that did work.
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subset: commoncrawl


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DEFINITION of 'Patronage Dividend'
A dividend or distribution that a co-operative pays to its members or investors. Patronage dividends are given based on a proportion of profit made by the business. Once this amount is figured out the dividend is calculated according to how much each member has used the co-op's services. Tax rules view these profits essentially as an overcharge, which can be returned to patrons and deducted from the co-op's taxable income.
INVESTOPEDIA EXPLAINS 'Patronage Dividend'
As the name implies, patronage dividends are paid to individuals as a result of belonging to the co-operative. One example can be seen when families purchase groceries through a co-operative and receive income or a credit on their account in return. Although they are taxed as ordinary dividend income, they may also contain an alternative minimum tax adjustment amount and are usually reported on Form 1099-PATR. Some co-ops will use the dividends to reduce the selling price of items, thus, in a way, the more you spend the more you receive.
Credit UnionMember-owned financial co-operative. These institutions are created ...
Dividend1. A distribution of a portion of a company's earnings, decided ...
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text:
5 Ski Towns That Are Must-Visits for Foodies
Good grub, check. Powdery slopes, check. Tasty cocktails, check. Now that's a vacation.
By Holly Corbett
Lake Placid, NY
Whiteface Mountain in the Adirondacks has the greatest vertical drop in the east, 87 trails (a third of which are rated for expert skiers), and 11 lifts, including a gondola. Just down the road in Lake Placid, NY, you can visit the Olympic Ski Jumping Complex and the Olympic Sports Complex, then head to a special meal at gastropub Liquids & Solids at the Handlebar. There, James Beard-nominated chef Tim Loomis mixes up new American dishes, like fried Brussels sprouts and cider bourbon apple cabbage, served alongside stellar cocktails—we're loving the Balsamic Fizz, a combo of vodka, fresh strawberry juice, basil, balsamic vinegar, soda water, and pineapple juice. Foodies are only now recognizing what's long been around the Adirondack area: a cheese trail to write home about, apple farmstands selling top-notch handmade pies and fritters, and family-run microbreweries mixing up award-worthy ales and hard ciders, including U.S. Open Beer Championship winners like Saranac's Adirondack Lager and Pale Ale. Pop into a pub après-ski and you're likely to find a local lager that pairs perfectly with the region's rich cheeses and grilled lamb. Definitely sample the legendary UBA Ale at double-decker Lake Placid Pub & Brewery, which overlooks the southern end of Mirror Lake and has a big fan in Bill Clinton.


text:
With no end in sight to the lockout, the NHL canceled games through Dec. 14 on Friday, bringing the total number of contests lost to 422, or a third of the 2012-13 season.
This round of cuts also included the elimination of the All-Star Weekend, which was scheduled for Jan. 26 and 27 in Columbus, Ohio. Even if the two sides would reach an agreement that allows for a shortened season, the game would likely be canceled as a compressed schedule is sorted out.
The reality of losing more regular-season games as well as the 2013 NHL All-Star Weekend in Columbus is extremely disappointing, NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said in a statement.
We feel badly for NHL fans and particularly those in Columbus, and we intend to work closely with the Blue Jackets organization to return the NHL All-Star events to Columbus and their fans as quickly as possible.
The cancellations came on the 69th day of the lockout, days after the two sides appeared to reach another stalemate in negotiations.
On Wednesday, the NHL rejected the latest proposal from the NHLPA, which based the players' share of hockey-related revenue on a percentage rather than a guaranteed amount for the first time in this process.
Under the offer, hockey-related revenue would be split 50-50 in the first year of a five-year agreement, but the players requested that owners contribute $393 million for the make whole provision that ensures the value of existing contracts, up from the league's original offer of $211 million.
On Wednesday, the players presented a comprehensive proposal, once again moving in the owners' direction in order to get the game back on the ice. The gap that remains on the core economic issues is $182 million, NHLPA Executive Director Donald Fehr said in a statement.
On Wednesday, NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said that the league is losing $18-20 million per day during the lockout, therefore two more weeks of canceled games far exceeds the current economic gap. It makes the NHL's announcement of further game cancellations, including the 2013 All-Star Weekend, all the more unnecessary, and disappointing for all hockey fans – especially those in Columbus. The players remain ready to negotiate but we require a willing negotiating partner.
While the two sides remain in contact, there are no plans to continue negotiations at this point. The league and the players remain far apart in terms of player contracting rights, how to account for a lockout-shortened season and other key issues.
During interviews with a Toronto radio station on Friday, both Daly and NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr provided updates on each side's stance.
I'll be the first to admit this process has played out not as we would have hoped. We hate where we are and wish we were in a better place, Daly said in his interview. I guess I underestimated the magnitude of the gulf between us on the important issues.
Since the league dismissed the union's latest proposal, speculation on whether the NHLPA would consider decertification as a next step has surfaced. The move would dissolve the union and leave the league open to anti-trust lawsuits.
Fehr declined to comment on the possibility.
We do not talk about what is discussed in private conversations with players, Fehr said. We haven't decertified, we haven't talked publicly about decertification.
Meanwhile, Daly said he wasn't scared of the possibility of the union decertifying, and added that it's a time-consuming process that would likely lead to the end of the season.


text:
TORONTO (AP) - Toronto Mayor Rob Ford threatened Thursday to take legal action against former aides who spoke to police about their concerns about his drug use, and he denied making sexual advances toward a female staffer.
Ford was reacting to details in newly released court documents that revealed more allegations of his bad behavior from drunken driving to verbal abuse, ramping up a political storm that has consumed Toronto for months.
Outraged City Councilors - who voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to call on Ford to take a leave of absence - turned their backs on the mayor as he addressed the council later Thursday. Ford has resisted mounting pressure to resign since admitting last week to smoking crack.
Speaking to reporters before addressing the council, Ford used coarse language to deny he once told a female staffer he wanted to have oral sex with her. The choice of words - made on live television - drew gasps from shocked reporter.
"I've never said that in my life to her, I would never do that," Ford said.
The father of two school-age children said is "happily married" and used more crude language saying he gets enough satisfaction at home.
The court documents released Thursday are part of a drug case against Ford's friend and occasional driver. Police interviews with Ford's ex-staffers revealed their concerns about his drug use and drunk driving, with one staffer alleging he saw Ford "impaired, driving very fast," and frightening a female staffer who was in the car with him.
In another incident, Ford was described by a former staff member as being "very inebriated, verbally abusive and inappropriate with" a female staff member on St. Patrick's Day. Another former staffer reported seeing the mayor drunk in his office about 15 to 20 times in the year he worked for him.
Ford acknowledged that he might have consumed alcohol while driving.
But he said he would take legal action against his former chief of staff, Mark Towhey and two other aides over their interviews with police. Ford did not specify what the aides might have said that was untrue. He did say he would take action against a waiter who said he believed Ford and a woman were snorting cocaine in a private room at a restaurant.
"I have to take legal action against the waiter who said I was doing lines," he said. "Outright lies, that is not true."
Later, nearly half of Toronto's 44-member City Council turned their backs as the mayor, wearing a Toronto Argonauts football jersey and cowboy boots, spoke about routine city affairs.
The Toronto Argonauts football team took issue with Ford wearing the team jersey.
"These latest remarks, while wearing our team's jersey, are particularly disappointing," the team said in a statement.
Denzil Minnan-Wong, a former Ford ally, is now calling on the mayor to resign in light of the latest court documents and comments.
"This is beyond a leave of absence. He needs to resign," said councilor Denzil Minnan-Wong. "This mayor thinks he is above the law, he is not."
Councilor Giorgio Mammoliti, a Ford ally, said if Ford doesn't agree to go for treatment by the end of the day he's lost his support.
Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly, also a Ford ally, said he's increasingly sad that "Canada's biggest and most important city had been reduced to that squalid context."
(Copyright 2013 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)


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April 4 (Bloomberg) -- Bob Bowman, chief executive officer of MLB Advanced Media LP, talks about the company's At Bat application for Apple Inc.'s mobile devices and other operating systems including Google Inc.'s Android platform.
He speaks with Cory Johnson on Bloomberg Television's "Bloomberg West." Bloomberg's Emily Chang also speaks. (Source: Bloomberg)
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