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Burgundy vs. New World Pinot Noir
- Frodnesor Sep 27, 2007 09:04 AM
Rather than hijack an existing thread I thought I'd use the following comment from zin1953 as a platform for discussion:
*There are any number of California Pinots that are made in the "big, full-bodied, 'in-your-face' style." I typically call this "Pinot-as-Syrah," but I have been repeatedly taken to task for that description by the winemakers who make their Pinots in this style, by the consumers who like this style, and by certain wine critics with reputations pinned to a 100-point scale.
It clearly is a style which I do not personally enjoy, but many people seem to like it, so . . . .
In the case of Sineann, Peter follows a model for his Oregon Pinot Noir that is more typically followed by California wineries like Loring, Eno, Siduri and others, rather than more "traditional" styles of Arcadian or Navarro in California, or most other Oregon producers . . . let alone Burgundy.*
I hear much about traditional Burgundy vs. New World (in particular, California and to a lesser degree Oregon) Pinot Noir. The discussion primarily focuses on New World PN being, as zin puts it, "Pinot-as-Syrah" or, "big, full-bodied, in-your-face style" - in implicit or explicit contrast to Burgundian Pinot being more restrained, elegant, subtle, etc.
What I find puzzling is that in reading reviews of some of the most highly regarded Burgundies (and I should note that my knowledge of great Burgundies is mostly vicarious, while I've drunk a good bit of California and Oregon Pinot Noir), the descriptions would seem to suggest that the Burgundies are often equally full-bodied, etc. as the New World wines.
Here's a test. I'm going to post excerpts from reviews of top Burgundies (mostly grand crus) along with several New World Pinots. Say what you will about point ratings, but let's assume that a professional wine reviewer gives a reasonably on-point description of the wine (yes, I know this assumption may be criticized). Without cheating, who can guess which are the new world wines and which are Burgundy?
#1 - "Very deep color. Huge aromas of jammy, candied black cherry, blackberry, boysenberry and spice, extremely charming. An opulent, full-bodied, full-throttle [wine], concentrated and packed with ripe tannins and bright acidity, with a long, lingering finish."
#2 - "An amazing wine, rich, opulent, riveting style, with layers of black cherry, blackberry, cola, sassafras and hints of mineral, pebble and sage. Deeply concentrated, long, rich and persistent, with flavors that coat the palate. Firmly tannic, too, giving it great structure."
#3 - "A fruit bomb, this is packed with cassis, plum, violet and mineral notes with freshness and extremely fine tannins. It builds and builds on the palate with intensity and vibrance."
#4 - "Amazing depth, richness and purity of fruit, this is dense and muscular yet deftly balanced, with tiers of plum, black cherry, blueberry and pretty hints of framboise, chocolate and rye. Both creamy and thick, it's mouthcoating and long, rich and persistent on the finish."
#5 - "Inky purple, fresh and compelling, with blackberry and violet aromas and flavors. If you close your eyes, Syrah comes to mind for a moment, but the tannin structure is different. Supple and silky before the fine tannins take over, this will require patience to reap the full rewards."
#6 - "Simply delicious, with wonderful aromas of sandalwood, exotic spices and a rich, vibrant core of juicy black cherry, blackberry, wild berry and boysenberry fruit that's enlivened by vivid acidity yet displays a wonderful density that gives it a long, intricate aftertaste."
#7 - "Blockbuster Pinot that remains elegant. Thick in texture, black in color, it delivers much character--earth, red berry and ripe-tasting blackberry, spices--in a blend both modern and traditional. So clean, so pure, so attractive."
#8 - "Subtle and graceful. Remarkably generous with its many layers of flavor, offering currant, raspberry, cherry, violet and mineral notes that keep echoing as the finish sails on and on. Tannins are present but should polish up with time in the cellar. "
#9 - "Big-structured, muscular, with good amount of fruit, there is also plenty of wood tannins and toasted oak here. Very dense, and with time might turn out just fine. Meanwhile, the sweet, ripe fruit wins you over."
#10 - "Lithe, supple and expressive, offering layers and layers of white pepper-accented currant and cherry, with a mineral note that adds depth and distinction. Broad and open-textured, lasting beautifully on the finish against superfine tannins."
Answers will be posted in later today.
I won't venture to take your quiz (altho I'm curious to see the answers!), but the primary differences I've noticed between Cali Pinots and Burgundy are:
1) French wines tend to have more floral notes, while cali wines tend to be more fruity.
2) Cali pinots sometimes lean towards darker black fruits, while french ones are more likely to be red-fruited.
3) Burgundies have higher acidity and minerality, making them more balanced in my mind. It's possible I just haven't tasted it yet, but I've yet to find a Cali pinot with the bright white mineral core that i find so appealing in burgundy.
4) Burgundies are more likely to have barnyardy, earthy, animal, bloody or mushroomy flavors. It sounds gross, but well-placed it can add a really wonderful dimension to the wine.
5) Cali Pinots are more likely to be over-oaked.
There are exceptions to all these, but I think these are pretty standard generalizations. So the issue isn't full-bodiedness as much as balance and relative lightness.
NB: I enjoy Cali Pinots from time to time, but I'm definitely biased towards burgundy.
ETA: One more key difference: Cali Pinots are more approachable when younger and fade faster than burgundies, most likely due to the extreme fruitiness.
I think those quotes say more about the writers than the wines.
Here's another review of #1 that I think leaves no doubt as to where it's from: "Dark red appearance. Pencil, leather and tree bark on the nose. Fat and flowy, but incredibly light and elegant. Wonderfully complex bouquet. Multi-dimensional in the mouth, and packed with ripe tannin. Great finesse to this wine. Very long finish. This should turn out top-notch in about 10 years."
re: Robert Lauriston
"Fat and flowy.. incredibly light?" Now if you were to describe people that way, someone would think you are nuts. How can someone be fat and light at the same time? "The man is really fat, yet he is stunningly light." Lol.. "Very dark yet light color."
re: monkuboy
I'm not offering that as a model of wine writing, just as tasting notes that are to me utterly unambiguous as regards whether it's Burgundy or New World.
re: Robert Lauriston
>>> I think those quotes say more about the writers than the wines. <<<
I agree.
re: Robert Lauriston
FWIW, quotes come from four different reviewers.
re: Robert Lauriston
Two more far less ambiguous notes...
Full ruby-red. Impressively pure nose of raspberry, strawberry, minerals, oriental spices and sexy oak. Superripe, lush and highly concentrated; already very expressive in the mouth, thanks to its utterly silky texture and wonderfully fine tannins. Explosively long and youthful on the back end. Consistently pure and fine from start to finish. (ST)
The medium to dark ruby-colored [] has sweet, tangy raspberry, black currant, candied cherry, leather, and spice aromas. This medium to full-bodied wine is harmonious, refined, and powerful. It is expansive, magnificently delineated, and feminine []. Its flavor profile is crammed with an assortment of super-ripe red and black fruit laced with vanilla beans. It has loads of sweet tannin that can be detected in its admirable finish. (PR)
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove, if anything. Some California Pinot Noirs are very Burgundian in style (e.g.: Arcadian, Navarro, Mout Eden Vineyards); others are more in the "Pinot-as-Syrah" camp -- though if I had any sense, I would have written "Pinot-as-Shiraz" . . .
Conversely, some Burgundies (Dominique Larent, for example, and to a limited extent, Perrot-Minot) may -- in their youth -- resemble more of a "in your face" CA PN than your classic (e.g.) Pommard or Gevrey-Chambertin. INdeed, I've always found Laurent's wines to be "upside-down" -- the higher up the appellations you go, the less tipicity the wines exhibit, and the more the wines exibit "Laurent." In other words, I can rarely tell his Bonnes-Mares from his Grands-Echezeaux, but telling his Gevrey-Chambertin from his Vosne-Romanee or Nuits St.-Georges is much easier as the wines are much more typical of their origin rather than typical of their maker.
re: zin1953
Not trying to prove anything. I haven't drunk enough Burgundy to have my own source of information by which to compare; indeed, that's why I reach out for thoughts from others here. Rather, just trying to explore my own puzzlement as to why New World Pinot is so often criticized for being "big, full-bodied and in-your-face" when those same characteristics seem to be ascribed to some of the most highly regarded of the top grand cru Burgundies.
Is anyone going to try? (Hint: there's no Arcadian, Navarro, Mount Eden, Dominique Laurent, or Perrot-Minot).
re: Frodnesor
Too tricky! I might be willing to take on a blind taste test, but not a blind tasting notes test :)
Without knowing who the writers are, it's difficult to determine how their palates would receive the different wines.
OK, since nobody has the courage to try (OW = Old World, NW = New World):
#1 - "Very deep color. Huge aromas of jammy, candied black cherry, blackberry, boysenberry and spice, extremely charming. An opulent, full-bodied, full-throttle [wine], concentrated and packed with ripe tannins and bright acidity, with a long, lingering finish."
#2 - "An amazing wine, rich, opulent, riveting style, with layers of black cherry, blackberry, cola, sassafras and hints of mineral, pebble and sage. Deeply concentrated, long, rich and persistent, with flavors that coat the palate. Firmly tannic, too, giving it great structure."
#3 - "A fruit bomb, this is packed with cassis, plum, violet and mineral notes with freshness and extremely fine tannins. It builds and builds on the palate with intensity and vibrance."
#4 - "Amazing depth, richness and purity of fruit, this is dense and muscular yet deftly balanced, with tiers of plum, black cherry, blueberry and pretty hints of framboise, chocolate and rye. Both creamy and thick, it's mouthcoating and long, rich and persistent on the finish."
#5 - "Inky purple, fresh and compelling, with blackberry and violet aromas and flavors. If you close your eyes, Syrah comes to mind for a moment, but the tannin structure is different. Supple and silky before the fine tannins take over, this will require patience to reap the full rewards."
#6 - "Simply delicious, with wonderful aromas of sandalwood, exotic spices and a rich, vibrant core of juicy black cherry, blackberry, wild berry and boysenberry fruit that's enlivened by vivid acidity yet displays a wonderful density that gives it a long, intricate aftertaste."
#7 - "Blockbuster Pinot that remains elegant. Thick in texture, black in color, it delivers much character--earth, red berry and ripe-tasting blackberry, spices--in a blend both modern and traditional. So clean, so pure, so attractive."
#8 - "Subtle and graceful. Remarkably generous with its many layers of flavor, offering currant, raspberry, cherry, violet and mineral notes that keep echoing as the finish sails on and on. Tannins are present but should polish up with time in the cellar. "
#9 - "Big-structured, muscular, with good amount of fruit, there is also plenty of wood tannins and toasted oak here. Very dense, and with time might turn out just fine. Meanwhile, the sweet, ripe fruit wins you over."
#10 - "Lithe, supple and expressive, offering layers and layers of white pepper-accented currant and cherry, with a mineral note that adds depth and distinction. Broad and open-textured, lasting beautifully on the finish against superfine tannins."
re: Frodnesor
well since you posted the answers already, how about idenifying the 4 reviewers?
re: ibstatguy
All from Spectator. The more recent burgundy reviews were from Bruce Sanderson, the 99's from someone else ("PM"?). The California reviews were James Laube, the Oregon Harvey Steinman.
re: Frodnesor
Re #8: I don't think I've ever had a Beaux Freres PN that I would classify as "subtle"!!!
Hi Frodnesor,
I'm totally with you on the Old World, New World distinctions. We are just taking our first steps into the world of Burgundy (thank you Zin1953!) and I find it extremely confusing.
My solution is to drink more!
I agree with others who say that those reviews tell more about the reviewers than the wines.
Great Burgundy has a mineral and spice component that no other Pinot Noir has. This is even more true when discussing the nose. It is also much higher in acid than the full-throttle CA and OR examples and much longer lived.
Some great producers in Burgundy (eg. Groffier) have developed a style that does find its way closer to New World Pinot than other producers. But I am still pretty confident in my ability to pick them out as Burgundy. In the less expensive field, Tollot-Beau's wines from the Cote de Beaune can sometimes be mistaken for an old-world styled New World wine.
But that said, no one has ever smelled a good DRC, or Dujac, or Leroy and not been 100% convinced that it was Burgundy. It doesn't even matter if you have had Burgundy before. At its best, Burgundy is haunting in a way that no Pinot from anywhere else in the world can be. It really is a different animal. And, to whatever extent the review of a 1999 La Tache sounds similar to the review of a Kosta Browne Kanzler, it is only because the reviewer is speaking in terms relative to appropraite expectations for the wine. It is not because the wines actually taste similar.
me thinks you guys need to do some blind tastings.....thanks for reminding me why I stopped reading the WS .
I have not read down the thread, as I do not wish to spoil it for myself, since I plan on "taking the test."
First, what an interesting thread! Great fun and I'll join in, albeit late. I promise to not cheat.
One comment: when gathering the reviews, I hope that you were open-minded and did not "stack the deck," with reviews that would obfuscate the origin of the Pns.
I've done tastings, where the wines were chosen particularly to throw off the participants, i.e. Chards that thought they were SB's, Cabs that were more like Syrahs, Merlots that mimicked Zinfandels, etc. Not much fun, when you only get only two, out of twelve, correct.
I'll play the game, and see how I do, as the answers are probably down below. I'll post my "score," and take any consequences.
re: Bill Hunt
Here's my test. I'll see how I did.
#1 = New World
#2 = Old World
#3 = Old World
#4 = Old World
#5 = New World
#6 = Old World
#7 = Old World
#8 = Old World
#9 = Old World
#10 = New World
re: Bill Hunt
Hey, 4/10 isn't all that bad, especially as we did not get to actually taste the wines, only read what someone wrote about them. My suggestion is that we gather these up and all gather for a tasting, to see if we do better. If nothing else, it'd be great fun.
I did an Old World vs New World (basically Cab & Bdx. blends), and stumped 98% of my wine group. With one exception (a Pomerol tie, but New World wine), there were no tricks in the bag. Great fun, and enlightening to most. Unfortunately, I had chosen the wines, so I'll never really know how I'd do on this one.
Thanks for the fun. Sorry, gotta' go, as I've just emptied my glass and need to go up and refill it.
re: Bill Hunt
Bill -
First, I'm glad to see someone had the cojones to try! As far as stacking the deck, I certainly for the first 2 tried to find reviews that read similarly (the DRC and the Kosta Browne). Other than that, I did tend to avoid reviews that used the word "terroir" as being a dead giveaway (and also, I should note, a complete cop-out IMO as far as actually describing a wine), and will confess to making some effort to find Burgundy reviews that described more full-bodied wines.
However, what I did see is that particularly when focusing on Grand Cru Burgundies, it was not so hard to find. The descriptors often did tend to match what are commonly described as the excesses of some CA style - "full-bodied", "full-throttle", "fuit bomb", "Syrah comes to mind", "thick in texture", "big-structured, muscular"...
Obviously many folks attribute this to the reviewer(s), not the wines themselves. I'd like to hear a little more about what this means - it's one thing to say that you don't like the style of wine a particular reviewer favors; it's another to say you think their point ratings are pointless or wrong; it's still another to say they don't accurately describe a wine. And while I regularly see significant variations between different professional reviewers as to particular components of a wine (specific aromas or flavors), it is less common that I see huge variations with regard to the overall style or structure of a wine.
I ultimately agree there's no way to really do this (and in particular, to educate myself) other than through blind tasting. I'm part of a wine group that meets monthly and I'm going to try to do this for one of our tasting nights.
Bill, I like your suggestion of gathering these up for a tasting - not sure it's in my budget though!
re: Frodnesor
I did not really believe that you had filled the quiz with ringers, and understand what you mean, as far as major descriptive terms go. "Stewed blackberries," vs. "poached blackberries," but we are talking rather specific terms and they do seem to make your point.
When it comes to reviews, I normally gravitate to this type, rather than numerical ratings.
If we can ever pull off a blind tasting, it should be great. Maybe I can get better than 4/10! If not, I still win, eh?
Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I had fun with it.
re: Bill Hunt
The key difference I believe between REAL red Burgundy and all fakers is that the new world wanna bes are mostly Hawaiian Punch ...Even more importantly is the immutable fact that most burgundy lovers don't get ...is that not only great but even just good red burgundy ages far longer than 98% of the people that drink it can possibly imagine. Sanderson gets an A+ in his latest column March 2010 in which he finally has the epiphany that even red burgundy from the 1960's in NOT YET "MATURE"! WHAT?? After you stop laughing...realize that this is indeed true for the most part. The ephemeral sweetness and dancing flavors that soar from even well made village level wines from great vintages like 1959, 1952, 1949, 1947, 1945 and 1937 can be intoxicating and typically is....although very fleeting. Think these wines are unobtainable...you'd be wrong. They're out there ...although buying them is the USA is for the most part an unaffordable exercise.
re: jonapurcell
Having had more than my fair share of Burgundies from 1959, 1952, 1949, 1947, 1945, and even 1937 (let alone 1961, 1964, and 19690, my comment is that there aren't many Burgundies that are produced today in the same style as they were then.
Sure, some wines will age magnificently. OTOH, some straight villages-level wines from the 1990s, and even the 2000s, are over-the-hill . . .
re: zin1953
Well, speaking of pinot-as-syrah and vice versa...:)
re: jonapurcell
While not an expert, I have had my fair share of DRC's, so I'd say that I rather know my Burgs, and appreciate many greatly.
Not exactly sure where you are coming from here. Are you saying that one cannot rate a PN, unless it has 20 - 40 years of age on it?
To me, a wine can be an excellent choice, regardless of whether it can age for half a century. It should be about the joy that it brings.
I hope that I am just missing something obvious.
If I want my PN to taste like syrah, I like the Penner Ash Rubeo, which has about 25% syrah. I have tried very little from Burgundy, certainly not enough to have an opinion. I prefer Oregon and New Zealand over California when it comes to the New World. I'm not sure if my problem with California PN is a matter of climate and terroir or the insistence on picking the grapes later than normal. I had a higher end California PN not too long ago and it seemed so overdone. The Rubeo has a high enough ABV, but this one was 14.5%-15%. What is up with high ABV in PNs? Isn't PN a bit delicate for these high percentages?
re: bricap
That is interesting to me bricap. I have yet to find a New Zealand pinot noir that I have been overly crazy about. To me, they always seem to be lacking fruit, and many of them have tasted burnt to me. Call me crazy, but yes, I said burnt! Very odd in my opinion!
On the other hand, I cannot get enough Cali pinot, whether it be a classic pinot, or a an in your face sweet cola filled fruit bomb. Same goes for oregon and Burgundy as well. -mJ
re: njfoodies
I have had very similar experiences. I keep feeling that NZ PN will be "there" soon, but have yet to experience one that screams, " I am HERE now!"
The areas are great, and many wine makers are working hard, but I have yet to be wowed. Maybe it is just the wines, that are imported to the US?
I am not saying that there are not producers, who have some great PN's, or that there are not others "knocking on the door," but only that I have yet to encounter the right ones.
While I find vast differences between a Benovia, or Brewer-Clifton and a La Tache, I can greatly appreciate any of those, plus many in the "in between."
re: Bill Hunt
I'd have to check my notes, as this was during a meal, but we did have a NZ PN in Hawai`i last week, and it was quite good - best for me so far, and maybe was the announcement - "I'm here now." It would have fallen way down my "great PN list," but was very good, and by far the best PN from NZ, that has touched my lips. Gotta' try more, and more often.
Heading to Sydney, and hope that there are some NZ PN's there, that we cannot get in AZ, USA, just to try. I've also been seeing some OZ PN's on lists, but have not tried any yet. Maybe next week?
re: Bill Hunt
while you are there see if you can find a 5 - 10 yr old yarra yerring pinot from victoria. i know it isn't NZ but they can be superb.
re: bricap
>>> What is up with high ABV in PNs? Isn't PN a bit delicate for these high percentages? <<<
Things move as a pendulum. Right now, and for the past several years, "physiological maturity" has been the buzzword, and PN -- like everything else -- is getting picked at riper and riper levels of potential alcohol/degrees Brix/sugar levels (take your pick). Now if you ask me, I would say YES, Pinot Noir is "a bit delicate for this high(er alcohol) percentages." Then again, there are no blanket, one-size-fits-all generalizations and I have had several PNs in this range that I thought were excellent.
Most, however, fit the model of what I call "Pinot-as-Syrah." Just to be clear, a "Pinot-as-Syrah" need not actually contain any Syrah, but rather just have the weight and body and degree of (over-)ripeness commonly associated with those California Syrahs made in the style of an Australian Shiraz. (Perhaps I should change my expression to "Pinot-as-Shiraz"?) I find the density, the fullness, the degree of ripeness to be very UN-Pinot Noir like.
But that's me; YMMV.
>>> I prefer Oregon and New Zealand over California when it comes to the New World. <<<
Obviously -- well, obvious to ME anyway -- this depends upon the specific producer. (There are some producers in each of these three locations that I cannot stand.) But, generally, I prefer New Zealand over Oregon, though in all fairness there are probably an equal number of Oregon and California PNs that I like. But Burgundy has always been my #1 . . .
re: bricap
Thanks for the replies, both of you.
NJF, I'm guessing we are into different styles. It happens. I know that there are plenty of people who like a PN from California that has 14.5% ABV and is a sweet cola fruit bomb. I'll never understand that style. I like to see some fruit, mind you, but I don't need for it to take over the wine, and I don't need for it to become syrupy, either. I don't mind that there are a lot of people who like this kind of PN. I just don't like that this kind of PN seems to be crowding out the other styles (in the New World market, anyway), but then that's probably just an extension of the whole high ABV debate.
I've only had a handful of NZ PNs. I generally liked them. I didn't take any notes on them, and they weren't too pricy, but I found them to be quite drinkable. I don't remember burnt being a descriptor that came to mind, though. They just tasted like decent PNs to me.
Jason, that was a thoughtful reply. Yes, I can still like a 14% ABV PN, as I mentioned with the Rubeo. It does happen from time to time. The syrah added a nice kick, I remember, which is why I said if I really wanted PN to taste like syrah, that's the way to go for me. I don't have enough experience with PNs to be talking about all the producers. Regardless of the producer, they still have much of the same climate and terroir to work with in a given region before deciding which style to employ. I haven't had tons of PNs, but it would seem that a few from each region helps to give me some idea in a given price range. Someday I'll try some Burgundies, and even some PNs from other locations, like Germany or Switzerland. I have a lot of different wines I want to try, though. I'm one of those people who has to try as many different grapes (and then in as many regions) as possible before I die, mind you.
re: bricap
Bricap: I crave different pinot at different times. There are certainly times that we are in the mood for a big fruit bomb. When that is the case, we reach for something like a Kosta Browne. Definitely love these wines when we're in the mood for them.
Then there are other times that we're craving Burgundy, so we'll reach into the cellar and grab some Burgundy. And of course there are times we're craving something from Oregon, and we'll do that as well.
If we're really not in the mood for anything in particular on the pinot front, than you just never know. Could be anything from the Central Coast, to the Santa Rita Hills, to Sonoma to Russian River. You just never know.
What I do know, is that we absolutely love pinot, hence the reason our cellar is currently almost 37%/255 bottles of pinot noir. Though I have been trying to even this out with more big cabs from '07. Cellar diversity is a good thing, and I don't have it currently.
But as far as the NZ pinot go, still haven't found one. Also haven't found any from South America that I have been crazy about. Guess I need to start drinking more and buying from other regions. We'll see! -mJ
re: bricap
You know, I drink a lot of PN's, as most are great food-friendly wines, and I seldom bother with the ABV ratings, unless I detect something out of balance.
Now, I will pair with a region, or producer, but do admit that there are many profiles. Paired with food, each has a place, at least in my book.
Very interesting thread! I would surely fail the quiz so I didn't even try! I love Pinot Noir, but though I drink an awful lot of it, I am not very good at analyzing the exact characteristics of why I like one vs. another. I do know of the New World Pinots, in general I far prefer New Zealand to California, and Oregon is somewhere in between. I love Burgundies as well. I just like those in a different way. I agree with one of the previous posters about Burgundies seeming more floral and earthy.
One thing not noted here is that when Wine Spectator conducts it's blind tastings, they are not double-blind at all. For example, each initialed taster (JL, HS, BS, etc) covers specific regions or types, and their wines are tasted blind, but within a certain context. When Laube sits down to taste current release Napa Cabernets & Blends, he knows it. Same with Harvey and Washington reds. So the scores and tasting notes are really only relevant to the category in which the wines are.
My friend who worked in the NY office for Wine Spectator said everyone knew which flights of wine were about to be tasted, and some were very well attended. Who wouldn't want to be there for the tasting that most likely included the La-La's from Guigal?
In summary, tasting notes from four different tasters only indicates that each has their palate calibrated to different reference points. A fruit bomb from Volnay would not compare to a fruit bomb PN from Sonoma.
Thanks, Frod, for constructing this interesting "quiz."
A couple of comments:
1. It seems to me that those who say "we have to know the reviewers" are copping out. The survey shows that even *relatively* sophisticated reviewers will not give us info to differentiate between old and new world. Perhaps our own palate will, but most of us are quite imperfect in describing the reactions of our own palates.
2. Kudos to Hunt for jumping in to try, and being humble/self-reflective about his answers.
3. Kudos to Frod for gracious replies.
As a moderately experienced drinker, I markedly prefer Burgundies to the New Worlders, BUT,
1. the burgundies cost $10-20 more for comparable qualitiy
2. i greatly appreciate the "charm" of many New World Pinots. To my palate, as is a cliche, the Oregonians are lighter and the Californians more "jammy," though I like them both, depending on my mood.
3. Less experience with the NZers, but a couple have been pleasant and even interesting, and if I remember correctly more acidic and less fruity than the Californians, and heavier than the Oregonians.
re: Henry James
I am as you are, and enjoy many different styles of PN. I can appreciate a light OR PN, to a full-blown Central Coast (CA, USA) "I say PN, but I think I am a Syrah" wine. It all depends on the food, or the mood.
As a side note, my first male Bulldog was named Gevrey Chambertin du Beauregard, but his friends knew him as Beaux (reflection on our New Orleans heritage).
Of all reds, I think that we probably do PN about 2:1 for Cab/Cab-blends, and all other varietals are down that list. Mainly, this is due to the food-friendliness of that grape, when well-produced.
I might take slight exception to #1, as I would bump that difference up a bit, but that is just my experience.
re: Bill Hunt
my first berner was named la tache - always wanted a dog named spot!
my second was chambertin and the one you know from backstreet is corton-charlemagne - charlie for short.
re: jock
Amazing how we apply names to our pups. Now, I have Beaux's sister, Billy's Sweet Magnolia Lane (entry to Augusta National), and Billy's Sweet Camellia (for #10 at Augusta National). Guess that I need a new "wine dog." Though it seems that you might have already taken some of the better names.
re: Bill Hunt
We named our chocolate brown miniature Poodle "Le Grande Dame Chocolate Divaliscious" or, "Diva" for short.
re: Henry James
As to knowing the reviewers, it might well be a case of "peeking," as we might recognize a writer's prose and descriptors, and also know their region of expertise. I think that here, I'd rather not know, as it's not like compiling a shopping list, where I would definitely want to know a bit of history of the reviewer, especially if I was plunking down for a 1er Cru Burg. Here, the descriptors should carry the test - at least for me.
re: Henry James
imo not a cop-out to know the reviewer. just as it is important to know your wine merchant, somm or chef. when you have tasted enough wines that the reviewer has reviewed you can calibrate your palate to his/hers.
new world, - old world can be tough to differentiate. i generally find new world to be "prettier" and "cleaner" and more consistent in style.
that said i still prefer burgundy where i can sometimes actually tell where in that small strip of land the grapes came from. also i have yet to taste a California or Oregon that came close to the great burgundies. some i rate in the low 90s but very few. the only new world that has come close to a great burgundy is the Yarra Yerring from Victoria, Australia.
of the dozen or so "epiphany" wines i have had over the last 50 years most have been burgundy or german riesling. musigny (twice), la tache (twice), chambertin, volnay, vr beaux monts and les amoureuses.
re: jock
I agree. The reviewer is very important. IMHO the man who really understands the relationship of Burg wines to terroir is Allen Meadows. I have not looked to see what he says about this subject but would be interested to know. I have found his direction to be reliable for me over the years. Many WS reviewers, I think, are not experts about the nuances of Burgundy wine (meaning from Burgundy), or at least not to the extent that Meadows is. Meadows site is also fantastic for Burg collectors that appreciate direction, education and guidance (esp drinking windows) in aged Burgundy. I don't have much experience in new world Pinots (so I would have flunked your test), but have a large collection of "old world" nicely aged burgundy (from the 1970's through the 1990's). It has been over 10 years since I have bought any new "good" Pinot so I am feeling out of date. This thread has me wanting to try some new things! Thanks for that, and the quiz. :) It is always nice to learn new things.
re: sedimental
for me RMP himself has become next to worthless - if it get more than 90 points from him it is way too overblown.
however, david s, his burgundy reviewer has an excellent palate. (i have no clue how to spell his last name)
re: jock
Yes, I know of David, but I don't prefer him to Meadows. There was a great reviewer there -years ago -by the name of Rovanni (sp?) that I thought was almost as good as Meadows, but he is gone now. I will give David's reviews another look, thanks for the tip.
Parker is not worthless to most serious collectors that buy, sell, auction and trade wines. He is just important for the "wrong" reasons! His comments, drinking windows and score makes all the difference in the world as far as "price". If you are a serious collector (for sport/passion or investment) of aged wines, RP's written words are important to you. That said, he is sometimes just plain wrong. He has been consistently wrong on drinking windows for white Bordeaux...but just try to auction a nice bottle for a decent price or trade it with another collector for something you want (fair value). Forget it. RP's reviews run the show....even though we all know better! The only saving grace for this situation is that you might be able to pick up a wonderful bottle at auction for a steal due to a RP "flubb" on a review. It still sucks to be on the other end of it.
re: sedimental
i did say "for me" and i do realize that parker is tremendously powerful. i just find his palate to be veering farther and farther from mine which i believe is the point of this discussion. parker never was very good on burgundy. parker still reviews ca pinots and tends to go for the big cherry cola "fruit bombs" that do not suit my palate. frankly, i think that is why i do not care for most of them.
i do not prefer david s to meadows and by the same token i do not prefer meadows to ds. they are both very good in my opinion.
here is another very personal opinion - i found rovani to be completely worthless. please do take offense it is just one man's opinion.
ps - if you want to calibrate with my palate and i can understand if you do not, a ca pinot that producer that i really like is littorai.
re: jock
No offense at all. Taste is soooo personal. I just enjoy talking about it. I wonder if there is a difference in age too (in regard to taste of wine)? I seem to have similar tastes with collectors over 50.Meadows is a "friend of a friend" and is in my age range. Our mutual friend loves Echezeaux and bought some from me -and he told me he drinks with Meadows ( I believe he does, and was highly entertained at the stories). I admit I am"old school". I really want to update my cellar and I am active at looking on boards for ideas.
P.S. I wrote it down Littorai and will try it! Thank you.
re: sedimental
i am 70. have met meadows but not tasted with him.
re: sedimental
i have had both the southing and the ten from sea smoke in several vintages. it is from the central coast and like most cc wines it is in the fruit bomb style. drink your sea smoke and other super-ripe pinots young. i do not buy and cellar ss and have no experience with how they age. but my experience with wines in that style is generally that the are best within a year or two of release. your 05 should still be fine.
a favorite of mine from the central coast is arcadian. they tend to be lower alcohol and more restrained. they take well to a little bottle age. 5-10 yrs.
i taste thousands of wines each year but i buy and cellar wine to enjoy with food and seldom drink it all by itself as a "cocktail". i find wines like sea smoke difficult to pair with food. big wines tend to win tastings but they often overpower the food in a meal.
re: jock
I disagree 100% with drinking Sea Smoke young and not cellaring it. We have been buying Sea Smoke from their first vintage, and I love these with some age? The '01's - '03's are really coming into their own and drinking nicely right now. The '04's and '05's are drinking OK right now, but could definitely use more cellar time.
Sea Smoke makes big wines, and they really need time for the alcohol and oak to integrate. I am not trying to offend jock in the least, but this is my experience. We've been on their mailing list for years now, and have over 50 Sea Smoke wines in the cellar. By far one of my favorite Santa Rita Hills Pinot producers! -mJ
re: njfoodies
That is good to know njfoodies. I did not have a "plan" for the 2005, I actually just forgot about it. I looked it up on cellartracker and it appears there are many folks that also prefer it aged.
As a side note: I went digging in my storage unit today for some bottles to bring home. I discovered a case of 1992 Caymus barrel fermented Pinot Noir Blanc. I brought one bottle home to see what time had done to it and to perhaps make a salad dressing with it, lol. Holy Smokes!!! It is stunningly complex while it still has fruit. The nose is sharp and certainly tastes like a "newer" white wine...but it would really be a bit of a "stumper" in a blind taste test! My spouse said it best....It's CRAZY...... Charley knew what he was doing!
re: sedimental
...........oops, I meant "bottle fermented" Pinot Noir Blanc. BTW, it appeared to have some fizz left in the bottle but didn't have any in the glass. Fabulous color and taste.
re: njfoodies
This might also depend on one's palate. In most cases, I also enjoy more age on my PN's, but some, even younger wines, can offer a lot to some folk. Better? Not by my palate, but wife usually appreciates them a bit younger, like her Vintage Ports. To each their own.
PS - even with PN's, like Acacia, I like a few years on the vintage.
re: jock
Those ARE "fruit bombs," but for some palates (mine here), they do have a place. I can enjoy a "I am a PN, but think I am a big Syrah" wine, as well as a very subtle, nuanced PN, that reveals itself over several hours.
Normally, I like a PN that "whispers" to me, and has several alluring lines, but there are times, where the "I'm here, enjoy me you hedonist wino, you!" works too. It all depends.
We need to gather for some PN's. I have managed to ween my lovely wife away from only Cal-Chard monsters, and introduce her to some wonderful FR Chards, and maybe it's time that you teach me more about red Burgs too. I love 'em, but bet you could teach me a ton.
re: sedimental
You should definitely write down Rhys. Getting on the mailing list NOW.
re: jock
You make some great points, as always, an do specify that it's per your palate. That is very important. When dealing with the wonderful nuances of PN, the individual palate is very, very important. As you know, I can appreciate many different styles, and from different locations. Each can be enjoyed, depending on the food, the time of night, or my mood. Well-made, and balance are still important, however.
As for reviewers, I have a few, with whom I know that I will disagree, and then some, with whom I think that I will agree. I try to read the descriptions, and let those guide me. When it comes to points, or similar, I often know that if X liked it, I probably will not, and if Y loved it, I might, as well. No reviewer can possibly hit it for all.
Just my opinion,
PS - how are things going? Anything that we PHX folk should know about?
re: seiun
So you re-open a thread begun some four-and-a-half years ago to say "Who cares?" And that was because . . . why?
And would would NOT -- in some sense -- be your "apples-to-oranges"? Would comparing a wine from the Côte Chalonnaise to the Côte d'Or not be apples to oranges? Or, a Sancerre Rouge to Côte d'Or? What about a Côte de Beaune to a Côte de Nuits? A Bourgogne to a Premier Cru? A Villages-level wine to a Grand Cru? Are these not apples to oranges?
But what if the Bourgogne and the her Cru are from the same domaine -- say Méo-Camuzet -- is it still apples-to-oranges?
What if they are from the same négociant? And would it really matter if it was (e.g.) Joseph Drouhin rather than (e.g.) Dominque Laurent?
And what if it were two different domaines, or two different négociants? Or two different appellations?
And what if you have a consulting winemaker working for the same wineries -- say one in Central Otago, and the other in Savigny-les-Beaune? Is it worth ***nothing*** to taste those two wines side-by-side?
I was tasting some 2010 Balletto Russian River Pinot Noir with the winemaker yesterday, and asked him why California Pinots taste so different from European ones. He said one big difference is that in France and Germany they often don't destem. He also said he thinks in California the pendulum is swinging away from the fruit-bomb style.
re: Robert Lauriston
They don't destem, Robert, because more often than not, the stems in Burgundy aren't green and full of sap they way they are at harvest here in California. It's much more complicated than that (as you know). Soil types are different, microclimates are different, clones are different, the yeast strains are often very different, as are the fermentation and aging regimes . . .
re: zin1953
New world pinots are more like Syrah from Australia than Red Burgundy- many thanks to Mr. Parker. Instant gratification has driven most of the new world to produce high alcohol Hawaiian punch that isn't much fun to drink with any food except a burned steak.
Parker can be personally blamed for the premox issues with White Burgundy- due to excessive battonage by many domains that wanted to earn a good score from him…so says Pierre Yves Colin Morey- perhaps the best white burg maker in the Core Dor.
Love live Allen Meadows and Richard Juhlin…ages wine is sublime, ethereal, sometimes even magic…but not aged new world wine for the most part. My cellar has zero new world wine…it's all over the place. The 75% rule is the silliest thing in the wine world…buy a pinot and it could be 25% anything else LEGALLY! Ludicrous! Sit next to a wine maker and ask him what he put into his pinot to make it plumper, sexier at a young age…it's creative but not for me.
The wine world is score driven- that's the reality. We just need the right reviewers to follow…
Much more new world wine needs to be sold in a box...why waste the glass?
re: jonapurcell
Those are very broad statements, and I think that I can counter almost every assertion, with New World vs Old World examples, and then exceptions.
As Jason suggests, there are almost no "absolutes."
re: jonapurcell
A rather strange post, but will engage a bit.
There's a universe of difference between a Russian River producer trying to copycat a Cote de Nuit Burgundy, and a Russian River producer following the lessons and care of a Cote de Nuit producer.
The most beloved and interesting beliefs/ideology of Burgundy for me, is the belief in Terroir. This belief in Terroir fundamentally means that Russian River Pinots should not be aiming to taste like Burgundies or for that matter Willamette Valley Pinots. Each location's weather, earth, grapes, and winemaker should contribute to making a personalized, and recognizable style that honors the area the wine comes from.
Wines from places outside Burgundy may not appeal to you. But to denigrate producers across the world for making wines that showcase their origin seems short-sighted - and perhaps far more ridiculous than any score by Mr. Parker.
re: goldangl95
The French make the best FRENCH wines in the world; the Californians make the best CALIFORNIA wines in the world; the Italians -- yup, they make the best ITALIAN wines in the world, just as the Aussies make the best AUSTRALIAN wines in the world . . . and even when two wines are produced from the same cultivar, the list of differences between the two is typically longer than and typically far outweighs, any similarities between them.
No one (probably) has upset more people on this board than I have over the past several years as when I refer to "Pinot-as-Syrah" -- though I agree with jonapurcell that "Pinot-as-Shiraz" is a better descriptor -- but a) NEVER has all New World Pinot Noir wines, not even all Santa Rita Hills Pinot Noirs, fallen into that category, and b) as with many things in life, wines go through "swings of the pendulum," that tend to shift every 10-20 years . . . the "ink monsters" of the 1970s, the "food wines" of the 1980s, the "Parkerized" wines of the 1990s . . .
This, too, shall pass (and is, thank heavens!)
re: zin1953
Jason- Well said! Mondovino - the movie- makes a good point in " let's not drive the world of wine to make one internationalized STD: Hawaiian Punch with 15-17% alcohol and age - ability measured in weeks"
Sure some brave folks and commercially blind!.... make age worthy wine in CA...White Rock for example....of course these wine makers TEND to have been fully exposed or schooled in France/Italy.
At the end of the day...once you've tasted JUST ONE ethereal old Burgundy- even white Burg- you understand that the new world is missing much of what wine CAN be. Note Juhlin's top 50 Champagnes EVER in his 2000 Champagne book. The best are from the 1920s-1950s. If you never had one...sell some Punchie wine and buy one!!
I exposed my oldest son to Burgs from 1920s to 1990s while in college…and now he wants to attempt to make these wines. He's realized that this is best done in France…so it off to Baume under the wing of the matriarch Becky Wasserman- a living saint. She mortgaged her own house to help Denis Bachelet buy his first oak barrels. Now Clive Coates has Denis as one of the best producers at 3 Stars in his red book…good investment!! France provides liquid history with the best wines…the US focuses more on 'hedonistic' (Parkers favorite word!!!) pleasures….prostitute vs. marriage I think.
re: zin1953
Hey, folks, just a quick request that you keep things focused on the wine, and not on your fellow hounds, please. We've removed some testy personal comments from this thread. Thanks.
re: Robert Lauriston
As you well know, besides the stems, there are many, many differences, from clones, to soil, to micro-climates. That might be one element, but only one element. Then, there is the Brix, or ripeness component, plus the wine maker's desires and direction.
re: Bill Hunt
Yeah, I just hadn't heard that one before.
re: Robert Lauriston
You are "pulling my leg," of course, aren't you?
re: Bill Hunt
"Hun"? Didn't know you are Robert were that close, Bill . . .
re: zin1953
Hey, we are practically "joined at the hip," "twin sons of a different mother... "

subset: commoncrawl


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You can make your ex girlfriend miss you if you follow specific techniques that are proven to work. This article is going to teach you what these are.
Your head will probably be all over the place after your break up, especially if it happened recently. It can take a long time to get over the person that you love, but what if you do not want to? What if you know that she is the one for you and you want to get her back? There are certain things that you can do to make your ex girlfriend miss you and desire you again, you just have to recognise what they are and implement them.
How to get her to miss you
The first step to getting your ex girlfriend back revolves around getting her to miss you. If she doesn't miss you in her life then she will never want you back, so this is one of the things that you have to get right. Take some time to think about what is making you miss your ex girlfriend first, that is a big clue to what you should be doing to make her feel the same way about you. You probably miss her because she isn't around anymore. Maybe you have not given her the chance to miss you yet, therefore you have to take yourself away from her.
The best thing that you can do is to make sure that you have no form of contact with her for at least 3-4 weeks after the break up. This probably seems like a very long time to you. Of course it is and no one says that it is going to be easy. However, you do need to exercise some self control here and restrain yourself. If you are texting her, trying to bump into her and attempting to get her attention, it will all backfire on you in a big way.
The thing about contact after a break up is that it will be turned into a big deal by your ex girlfriend, even the most innocent of texts will make you look like a stalker. This can end up making her feel uneasy and wary of you. It will also make you look weak and needy and this is the last thing that you want. Think about things logically, if you want her to miss you, this is not going to happen if you are still trying to be in her life, in any form.
Updating your social network accounts - bad idea
What you have to do instead is to close down your facebook account so that it will stop you from checking her profile and updating yours. She will be checking yours, probably most days. It is natural for her to be curious about how you are dealing with the break up and what you are doing. You do not want to give her any clue about what you are doing though, not in the immediate aftermath of your break up. Let her pine for you and ruminate about your whereabouts.
Another good thing about staying away from your Facebook account is that it creates a mystery around you and this is highly attractive. You want her to see you like she did at the start of your relationship, when she didn't know very much about you. This is where the excitement lies. If you are predictable and updating your wall every day she will not be interested in you. It will also make you look a bit desperate and that you have nothing better to do than sit in and browse Facebook all day.
Look out for signs
The interesting thing to look out for is signs that she misses you then. When you have done all the things in this article you will start to notice a change in her behaviour towards you and a need to communicate with you. Look out for seemingly innocent texts from her, then you will know that she misses you and wants to strike up a friendship or get back together.
Girls will be very subtle in the signs that they give you. Some girls will not want you to know that they are finding it tough after a break up and will put on a brave facade to not let you know how much they are hurting. She will not just come out and say that she misses you in the early stages, but there are very clear signs that she is pining for you and you must pay attention to them. You can also speed up the process yourself by following some expert advice on how to make her miss you.
You Next Step
When you get to this stage you will need to learn other clever tactics that will make her regain her attraction for you. There are loads of subtle things that you can do to stoke her desire for you and make her do all the work to get you back instead of the other way round. You are just at the start here, so get this step right and you will be well on your way to getting your girlfriend back.
You know that feeling you get like blood rushing up to your head when you see or read something you feel its too not real to believe like get out of here that not real!!! yeah that was just how i use to fill each i bumped in one or two article about spell casting Online like that not so happening. Yet it was that same spell casting got me to live happily with the love of my life. Just thought you should know, Metodo Acamu was the spell caster behind the spell that brought me eternal happiness. Am gay and a school teacher from Belgium and my fiancé so happened to be a teacher also but we did work at the same school. We got engagement like 8 months before he started teach in a particular high school i can't disclose. I know eight months is a long time to be engagement but we planned our wedding to happen in the united state of America so we were preparing for the big day. Any way not every parent would like for there children to be educated about same sex as a matter of fact we teacher are not allowed to talk about our sexual orientation at school to the kids we teach. Its not even right to talk about any type personal stuff with kids at school but our case was different we were getting married and it was kind of the most talked about wedding of the year not like it was like that of Kim and Mr west but co teachers were talking some how it fell into the months of the kids at school that was went the problem came. Parent started talking saying how can the school let this happen they don't want their child hearing thing like this and start talking about it at home. Where we stay, there aren't a lot gay people. You can only find one out of ten persons that are gay so it was hard on us. There was pressure form the school to either call off the wedding or force quite our jobs. I was ready to leave everything just to be with my love but he was too scared. He didn't want to loss his job cos it took a while to find something that he loved doing. I knew he loved so much {and he still does} but he was scared of his future i tried everything ti make him see we can be together an find a way to deal with the school stuff but he still broke off our engagement and called off the wedding and stopped contacting almost like he doesn't love me any more. At a time i thought we were done until we resumed contacting each other in secret like we were doing anything wrong. It was so frustrating for me i was not free to love who i wanted in public cos he loved his job as a teacher so much anytime i bring up us to come out together in public he got angry. Our relationship got unhealthy for us both it was failing and i did want us to end like that i guess that how you feel when really in love with some. I was exhaust didn't want he wanted but i knew he loved me so much. So after literally trying everything to get us together as we were before we broke our engagement i thought i should give spell casting a try and really it worked. When i explained to Metod Acamu how i have tried all means but failed to make my fiancé become my fiancé again and get married, he said all i need was to use a spell to make him feel that love he felt before that made him put a ring it. He asked for some materials to use to get the spell casted he said i could bring it over to his fortress or send it over or send down the expenses to him to get them if i can find them to buy. It took some day to complete the spell and just after the spell was completed and made effective my heart desire was fulfilled we did not have to live Belgium any more we got married here their month but honeymooned in USA. If you don think it was the spell that made this happen then i don't know how then to explain the fact that he quite his teaching job he loved with his life cos everybody who knew him knew how he loved his job too much to quite for anything or anyone. And i would advice asked Metodo to get the materials for the spell for you . TO contact him use this metodoacamufortressx@yahoo. com
These comment you see on the internet about Metodo are not just comment they are truthful word written by those who have been there and found help in reunite with the one they hold dear to heart. I can tell you these cos i also asked him for help to cast a spell to fix my relationship with the only man i have ever loved after been married four time in the last four years cos i didn't believe in love but in the power of been rich. When it came to been Stephen it was different i fell for him in every way. Maybe i don't know what love is cos i never felt it for any of one my ex husband the only detail i can give is that my heart literally beat fast when he was around, anytime he ran his finger through my hair. I always knew my past will always hurt not matter what i do but i never gave it too much thought cos i never thought i will meet this kind of man. At the time i meant him it was only a while before the relationship became serious cos i bet he loved me also. We moved in together and our relationship just blosoomed. He was gentle with me always i mean my life was a fairy for a moment. But then again my past life that was to be left in the closet got out. It almost ruined my life i almost lost the love of my life but Metodo the spell caster help me restored that love that was always there. That is how i know every of this comment is true. Not everybody will believe this more over its just something on the internet but my heart knows every of this word that formed this entire comment is true. Living Metodo contact for those who believes me and needs help metodoacamufortress @ yahoo. com
Probably all this testimony you read about spell casting online are spam right?And yeah some are spam some think all of them are spam which is totally not bad and i also know some believe spell casting really works but have not been able to find the right one. Well i think i found the right spell caster Metodo. I know he is real not cos he helped me but because i was there in his temple i Have seen him and his temple and i tell you it can't get more really that what am writing now. I know you may want to know why and what lead me to contact a spell caster i am a south African woman here in south African as a matter of fact in Africa having a male child is like the most important thing in a marriage and it turned out that i am married to a very traditional man as in a he believes the male child carry the family name on and on but the females get married and change there name which is true. I were married for six years and i had no male child for him. Maybe friends and family filled his head with a lot of things like i don't have a male child for him and as a result he need to get a divorce and get another wife that can bear him a male child. I always thought the people that filled his head with this ideas where is family and friends the people that i smile and dine with. The very people who ought to have advice him rightly. I never found out if they where involved in wanting to ruin life and my marriage. Not because i could not find out but cost i didn't want to develop hatred for them cos i will always get to see them and it is not really healthy seeing the faces of people you hate. At that time, i mean before i knew my husband got himself a lover i was paranoid about him having a lover cos our lives changed a lot he starting coming home late he wouldn't touch me any more and even he started avoiding me in our home making up excuses to stay all day in his study room doing nothing and telling me his need something off to clear his head. We had fights all the time i brought up the matter if he was see someone else. Maybe he got tired of lying i don't know he finally asked for a divorce. A divorce my family saw him through his university and got him a got job i told myself and now he's asking me for a divorce cos i don't a male child yet for him. He was ready to let go of his three beautiful daughters he asked that i take them along. Maybe he was a real f**l and didn't know what he had and maybe he didn't deserve someone like me but one thing was crystal clear to me i was still in love with him and i wanted a complete family for my kid that and the fact that i raised him from the gutter i didn't care about any of his problem when i married him and i forgot to say my father never approved our marriage but still i jumped into it thinking we are going to have each other forever. Though we are still together now but its cos of the spell i had metodo cast on him to make him see how much he needs me in this life. When i contacted metodo he asked that i get the materials for the spell which i did and delivered the materials to him in person that is to say i came in contact with him. I was to return in to his temple in 7 seven day and within those seven day he gave me a blessed a red candle asking that i command and say whatever i wanted every night within those seven days which i did on the seventh day when i returned to metodo temple he gave a harmless powerful substance with instruction on how to use it. This might seem like fiction or lie or what ever you lucky reads may think but deep down you know it true you just looking for a way not to get involved. I ve got my husband back and my family life couldn't be better thanks to the spell though i don't have a male child for him at least his them lover bore him one. contact him with his email if you want his help metodoacamufortress @ yahoo. com
I saw a testimony of Nadezhda Vyacheslav on how she got that guy to love her as she did him.Though i don't know her, i believed her cos she said Mutton Osun a spell caster help her seen it happen. I didn't believe her cos she used a spell i believed her cos she made mention of a mutual spell caster i know of that is mutton Osun. I have also see a lot of testimony about his work on the the internet on blog pages and so on. I literally took a lip of faith to contact him and it turn out that it paid off. In my own case i didn't ask that him to make anyone fall in love with me or ask that my cheating wife comes back. This time i was at fault i messed up. Will really like to say it was an honest mistake or a few hours or days of weakness but then i will be insulting my wife and the love i feel for her. I was in full control of what i was doing i had the choice not to cheat but i still did. She didn't find out by herself i told hoping if i told her how sorry i am and how much i still love and want to be with her despite my betray she will forgive completely. It was the biggest mistake of my life maybe i should not have told her, i guess she would have still found out if she didn't catch me then i bet the other lady would have told her what was going on to destroy what me and my wife had. It was obvious my betray really hurt her i could she it in her eye and i was really sorry. That is why i wasn't so surprise when she asked that we go our separate ways. There and then i realized that i was following the part that ruined my life and my family. I literally lead four month of my life in misery. I have never felt like i needed her like i had felt begging was not an option nothing was an option cos she was gone. It was right about that time Mutton Osun came into the picture or when i asked that he help me get my wife to love as she did before. I was able to provide the items he asked that i get for the spell and send then down to him. Like Nadezhda Vyacheslav said "the spell does become effective at once that " she was right also cos just after i did what Mutton Osun asked me to do with what he sent me, it took 7 days before anything happened i even thought for a minute that i had met a fake spell caster but in the end i am happy with my wife again.We going to be renewing our vows on the 20th of September. I was on the edge of become a walking dead a woman with nothing to live for thank my star Mutton Osun helped. I will also leave his contact for those who thing he can help them { godsofosunx@rocketmail. com }
I have been reading about spell casting and its powers for a while but i never thought or it never occurred to me or i rather say that it happened that i never got myself in any situation that will make need the help of a spell caster.I read a lot of testimony on the internet on web pages, blog, and some on the face book page of some web site i linked with my Facebook with.I just wanted to know how it worked so i tried.I have always had a thing for this guy or i would say i liked this guy but he was kind of a mess cos of the lost of his wife.Contacting MUTTON OSUN was really easy for me cos all those other article had an email address i could use to contact him.Any way i was not allowed to tell any one till i have seen the result and important he told me i needed some materials for the spell casting.I guess he made some kind of harmless powdery substance with those materials and sent them over to me.He asked that i follow this instructions on how to make the spell active which i did.I must warn you it take at least two day to be effective cos it was after two days the man that never talks to me knocked at my door asking if i would like to watch movies with him at his place form there we kicked off.We have been together for 4 months now and still counting he is a really nice man i can am the luckiest woman in the world.I mean this only means that what MUTTON did is working and it changed both our life for good.I will also leave his mail here you contact purpose >> godsofosunx@rocketmail. com
My name is Adams Bella, i live and work in Oxfordshire, UK. My life is back!!! After 2 years of Broken marriage, my husband left me with two kids, I felt like ending it all, i almost committed suicide because he left us with nothing, i was emotionally down all this while. Thanks to a spell caster called Dr.Trust of Ultimate spell cast which i met online. On one faithful day, as I was browsing through the internet, I came across several of testimonies about this particular spell caster. Some people testified that he brought their Ex lover back, some testified that he restores womb,cure cancer,and other sickness, some testified that he can cast a spell to stop divorce and also spell to get a good paid job so on. He is amazing, i also come across one particular testimony, it was about a woman called Vera, she testified about how he brought back her Ex lover in less than 2 days, and at the end of her testimony she dropped his email.After reading all these, I decided to give it a try. I contacted him via email and explained my problem to him. In just 48hours, my husband came back to me. We resolved our issues, and we are even happier than ever.Dr.Trust you are a gifted man and i will not stop publishing him because he is a wonderful man. If you have a problem and you are looking for a real and genuine spell caster, Try him anytime, he is the answer to your problems. you can contact him on (Ultimatespellcast@gmail. com or Ultimatespellcast@yahoo. com) or call him +2348156885231. he is the best caster that can help you with your problems.
My name is Adams Bella, i live and work in Oxfordshire, UK. My life is back!!! After 2 years of Broken marriage, my husband left me with two kids, I felt like ending it all, i almost committed suicide because he left us with nothing, i was emotionally down all this while. Thanks to a spell caster called Dr.Trust of Ultimate spell cast which i met online. On one faithful day, as I was browsing through the internet, I came across several of testimonies about this particular spell caster. Some people testified that he brought their Ex lover back, some testified that he restores womb,cure cancer,and other sickness, some testified that he can cast a spell to stop divorce and also spell to get a good paid job so on. He is amazing, i also come across one particular testimony, it was about a woman called Vera, she testified about how he brought back her Ex lover in less than 2 days, and at the end of her testimony she dropped his email.After reading all these, I decided to give it a try. I contacted him via email and explained my problem to him. In just 48hours, my husband came back to me. We resolved our issues, and we are even happier than ever.Dr.Trust you are a gifted man and i will not stop publishing him because he is a wonderful man. If you have a problem and you are looking for a real and genuine spell caster, Try him anytime, he is the answer to your problems. you can contact him on (Ultimatespellcast@gmail. com or Ultimatespellcast@yahoo. com) or call him +2348156885231. he is the best caster that can help you with your problems.
dr. marnish solved my relationship problem 3 days ago , i sent him some gift of appreciation for the Commitment love Spell he did for me, he made my lover to love me again. and to be committed to me again, i am very very much happy. dr.marnish brought me happiness, email dr.marnish@ yahoo. com or call him +1 5 0 3 6 6 2 6 9 3 he will turn your broken relationship around Rebecca Kemaya California, USA
My name is really not important here cos all i can say is that if you need a spell caster to help you with your problem then the best one is MUTTON OSUN. He is the only reliable spell caster i know. I am composing this comment to pin the fact that MUTTON OSUN has also helped me. After six years of marriage it hard to really understand when your wife is see another man and asking for a divorce just so see can be with him. It so hard for me cos i thought we were doing fine. Maybe i was too blind that i didn't know something was wrong with us or i wasn't giving her the attention she needed. Which ever which way there was something that i knew,she was breaking my heart and i still loved her with my life. I know people may probably say it unlike a man but i lost my virginity to her and sine then there have been no other in my life but her. I gave up everything for her My family, and everything and everyone that wanted us not to be. I was ready to let her go i left our house and her new painter boyfriend moved in.They turned my private store room to his art studio and started sharing my bed with my wife. He was practically living my life for me cos everything i had in our house was converted to his. Before i even thought of spell casting i tried the memory lane method but she was not even willing to talk to me for more than a minute or even have a bit with me it was almost like she was allergic to me after five years of marriage. The thought of another man making love to my wife consumed me i lost focus and was totally confused on what to do. I remember drowning myself with bottles of vodka to kill the pain and try to forget her but i pass out and wake up thinking about her. Just when i thought i needed to get rid of of my cheating wife with the help on the internet, i came across a lot of comment on how MTTON OSUN has helped to get exes back so at that moment i was no longer thinking of how to get rid of her instead i was thinking and willing to do anything just to have my wife back. When i contacted the spell caster that is MUTTON OSUN with the email i saw on the comment he called me, after i made him understand my problem. He told me he was sad for me cos i left my whole world and family for her. He asked that i get some materials i can disclose but it nothing to worry about cos they are totally harmless. I felt it was gonna be hard to send them down to him so i gave him the money for the materials. After two days he sent me a package containing my spell. He instructed me on how to make it effective and i swear on my dead sister grave the spell made my wife mine again,Its was so supernatural how it happened i can't just explain from how she left the painter and everything beats my imagination all i know is that MUTTON OSUN spell is was powerful enough to get me my wife back. Contact him here for solution to your own problem godsofosunx@rocketmail. com
My wife has accused me of a lot of things in our years of marriage some of those accusation were true and i admitted to doing them but am to much in love with her to give her an s.t.d. She was down to end our marriage cos she believed i gave an s.t.d. She had a good reason to believe that cos of late i haven't been the best husband. Thank God that s@@t was clarified in the Trisha show that i was not responsible for the s.t.d. She was in love with me as i was in love with her. Yes i will admit to the fact that i f$$ked up so many times but we always got around our problem i don't mean avoid it i mean we fixed our problem like real adults but my stepson always thought i was not good enough for his mother. We never really got along. I agreed to do the Trisha show thinking maybe it will help fix our marriage but it made it even worse. After the show she was more down to live me. She asked that i move out of the house filled for a divorce and all. I could not let her go just like that.I got desperate and i panicking so i used a spell to get her back i know most people don't believe and you may call me crazy but it worked for me. I found a comment on internet about this spell caster Metodo Ell. The comment said he doesn't do spell for those who are not meant to be together. All i needed for the spell were materials to get the spell done. I could not get them so i paid him to get them for me since he is the expert in this stuff. As far as i can tell that s$$t worked cos all my marriage problem just fall off my shoulder and my stepson is cool with me now. If you want to get him to cast a spell for you contact him here with this email address metodoacamufortress@yahoo. com he could also do a direct spell maybe it meant cost a little more than mine i don't know him only can tell you that.
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