text:
Oxen case spurs college plea for helpBy LISA RATHKE
The Associated Press | January 16,2013
MONTPELIER — Officials with the Vermont college that was targeted by animal rights activists over its decision to slaughter two oxen told a legislative committee that resources are needed for farms and other businesses to deal with potential online threats from activists.
Green Mountain College officials and students testified before the House Agriculture Committee on Tuesday about the ordeal that ensued this fall after the school decided in a public forum to slaughter two retired oxen from the college's farm and use the meat in its dining hall.
The uproar began after VINE Sanctuary, based in Springfield, Vt., offered a home for the animals and urged followers to contact Green Mountain College officials and ask them to reconsider their decision. VINE stands for Veganism is the Nest Evolution.
Critics signed online petitions, other groups got involved and followers sent millions of emails from around the world — some of them threatening and vitriolic — to try to spare the animals, school officials said, displaying some of the messages to the committee. Groups opposed to the school's decision put it under surveillance, with photos of the campus and video appearing online, officials said.
Area slaughterhouses in Vermont, New York and New Hampshire were threatened, preventing the small liberal arts college from finding a place to butcher them, the school said.
"Students felt threatened. I felt threatened," said Philip Ackerman-Leist, head of the school's Farm and Food Project.
He has proposed setting up a rapid response team that includes a respected veterinarian, a social media expert, a lawyer and representatives from nonprofit groups to help others — colleges, farms or businesses — if they come under such an attack.
"We needed support. We needed help from other organizations," said Ackerman-Leist, who said the Vermont Agency of Agriculture and Agriculture Secretary Chuck Ross were a big help.
VINE's coordinator has said the effort took off far beyond what the group expected and the group itself has been threatened but it has never endorsed violent language.
The college eventually euthanized the injured ox and decided to keep the other ox at the farm.
Baylee Drown, the assistant manager of the college's farm, asked legislators on Tuesday to consider some sort of recourse for the businesses that are interrupted by the activities of activists.
"I want to encourage you to make some sort of an avenue for us to defend ourselves so that we do not feel powerless, and possibly a task force would be wonderful so there's some sort of response," she said.MORE IN Vermont NewsHYDE PARK A lawyer for a sheriffs deputy who saw a domestic abuse investigation against him... Full StoryMONTPELIER The Vermont Board of Education is seeking public comment as members draft a... Full StoryPolice: Snowball Full Story
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3 Month Checkups!
Find a Conversation
|Thu, 11-01-2012 - 1:13pm
Post your checkup updates here!
Zoë had hers this morning. No shots (thought she was getting one of her Hep shots, but apparently not). She's healthy, and weighs in at a whopping 18lbs 1 oz -- she's completely off the growth chart percentages. She's 25.25", at 96%.
Doc isn't really concerned, since Will was a big baby at this age and is now in the 13th percentile for weight (he's tall and super thin). But she did suggest that Zo should be sleeping through the night because she's so big, and wants me to let her cry instead of feed her everytime she wakes up (sleeps for 4 hours, then up every 2 until she's up for good at 5:00 or so). We won't be doing that, and I won't be sharing this with hubby because he would do this. First, we all have to get up early every day, and a crying baby isn't going to cut it -- walls are thin. Second, I don't let my wee ones cry. Never have and I'm not going to start with this little girl. She's rotund, but she's still a baby. I don't think she's eating out of boredom, but I do think she loves her milk. I've thought that if anything, maybe I'll just up the water to formula ratio a bit. Nothing drastic, but a bit. And, cereal in the bottle at night, that doesn't cut it -- have tried it a few times. She drinks 7 ounces of that (about 1/4 cup of cereal in her bottle) and still gets up within 4 - 5 hours. So I'm not going to do that at all anymore since 1) it doesn't fill her up and keep her full any more than a straight formula bottle, and 2) cereal has a LOT of calories compared to formula (5 oz formula = 100 cal, where 1/4c rice cereal = 60 cal). She'll be super-huge if it keeps up, and I am not trying to have an obese baby.
She's definitely getting more floor time on her back, and we're trying to do belly time more frequently as well ... hopefully this will help.
But, she's otherwise healthy and doc wasn't surprised a bit that big baby rolls over.
Hope all the other babies are faring well!
|Thu, 11-01-2012 - 1:47pm
Hi Brie - You've gotta do what you've gotta do, right :) I know with my first he never really slept through the night until after 9 months. He would at least wake up once each night to nurse.
We don't do 3 month checks here, but will see the doctor again December 4th for his 4 month check.
We are getting pictures taken of Josh for his 3 month birthday though!
|Thu, 11-01-2012 - 10:42pm
Aw...Zoe sounds like a sweet baby. No three month check ups here either. Mason will have another at four months. I can't imagine him sleeping through the night. Ha! For some reason mine don't sleep through the night until they are 3 or 4 years old. Even still my four year old gets up at least a couple times a week. We are total suckers! Mason is still in bed with us because he won't sleep anywhere else. Not sure what else to do. He wakes up the moment you put him down and just cries. Not going to happen. None of the other kids were great sleepers, but they did at least sleep in the bassinet some of the time. I don't know. I do know that I don't get enough sleep as it is so whatever works at this point. Mason is a sweet boy though. He was just laying on the floor for a few minutes today just "talking away" then he just started laughing spontaneously. Not sure what he thought was so funny. He will chuckle at us or the kids when we talk to him, but he rarely full out laughs. He also let me put him in his bouncy seat for a few minutes today. Still too small for it though he was looking and grabbing at it and was facinated with the baby einstein sticker on it. It is so fun when they actually do stuff LOL. Anyway, here is a pic of Mason (3 months old today!)
|Mon, 11-05-2012 - 1:16pm
Mason is such a doll! We just got an activity bouncy thing like that, Baby Einstein also (but a bit different than yours -- we don't have a frog or whatever that green thing is), and Zo cannot quite touch the floor even on the lowest setting just yet (very close, another inch maybe?), and cannot sit up on her own either so we have to put a blanket behind her/in front of her right now. Zo is still deciding if she likes hers. I'm beginning to think it's just change that she doesn't like. Even fun change makes her mad, LOL. I only got her this so she could do something different -- she'll be lucky to get 8 weeks of use out of it given her average wieght gain per month. She's actually sitting in her swing right now (NOT swinging, LOL -- that's just a crazy notion to little girl), and the weight on that is 25lbs as well. Easy come, easy go with the baby equipment.
We are lucky that Zo will start off in her crib at night (it's next to our bed) and get her first 3-4 hours in there, but that's generally about it -- once she's up for that first feeding, she almost always just stays in bed with us. I'm getting better about putting her in her crib again, but, really she sleeps better with a warm body close by. I, however, do not sleep better with her in our bed. But this middle-of-the-night waking is not for forever, and I'm managing, sleep-deprived though I am.
Here she is, just a couple days before turning 3m.
|Tue, 11-06-2012 - 3:35pm
Oh my gosh! Zoe is a doll!! So precious. I love that photo.
I'm guilty of leaving Josh in bed with me after he wakes to nurse in the middle of the night. I just fall asleep with him nursing away and when I do wake up, I'm too lazy to crawl out fo bed and put him back in his crib. I need to keep it up though, because two nights a week I leave for work at 4 AM and I don't want him to become too used to being in bed with mommy... since I'm not in bed through the night a few nights a week!
|Fri, 11-16-2012 - 8:54am
No actual check ups here either, but I wieghed Sean and he's 14.8lbs, so right on with big brother, who was also about 15lbs at this age. Go figure that the night I don't put him into a size 3 for the night, he sleeps from 8:30-6, so he soaked through to his pj's. I think it was the nice warm bath with big brother that wore him out, and the 7oz he drank right after it that helped keep him asleep. Yesterday he finally held himself up during tummy time for about 2 minutes, and was ok with it until he couldn't hold his head up. After he got tired, he despised it. I'm happy about that because I want to install his carseat a little more upright (like 40*) to give us a little play with the front seat. I think I'll be waiting another month to do it though. Oh, and yes, I know that the manufacturer would tell me no, I can't, but I make the parent decision to install them slightly more upright as my kids get older, it keeps them happier


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Thirteen Reasons Why
From the critics
Community Activity
CommentAdd a Comment
13 Reasons Why is a must read for anyone out there. It has so much all pact in one. Mystery, romance, drama, you name it. Hannah Baker took her life leaving behind cassette tapes of the thirteen reasons why. Everyone that was involved in these reasons receives a copy of these tapes explaining why they were the reason for this tragedy. I feel that every cassette that was explained was so precise. I remember sitting in my bed visualizing these tapes coming to life as if I were Hannah and I was feeling the same emotions as the characters who received these tapes. This book really made me open my eyes to how I treat other people. It made me realize that I have to be so careful with what I say and how I say it to, because you might not know what they are going through at all. Or what they might do. Jay Asher did such an amazing job writing this story. While keeping all the surprises a surprise he still managed to keep us guessing and reading. The point of view of Clay Jensen ( a boy featured in these tapes) in which the story was written made the book so much more emotional to read. Because when he first started listening to these tapes he was just as confused as we were. Once all of his questions were answered so was mine. So I'm guessing you might want to know the 13 reasons why Hannah Baker took her life… I guess you will have to just read this amazing book to find out.
"13 Reasons Why" is an incredible novel. Instead of leaving people to wonder why she has killed herself, Hannah leaves behind 13 cassette tapes, each one designated to a specific person, which details how and why they played a role in her suicide.
This novel is hauntingly beautiful, and will make you think about how you treat others and how others treat you. It will make you consider the lasting effect that you leave on people, whether it is intentional or not.
This novel is a must read for all teenagers. I read this book in the space of two hours!
After Hannah commits suicide, she leaves thirteen cassette tapes with Clay Jenkins, taking him on a journey to learn more about his deceased acquaintance and himself.
A sad and fascinating tale of a girl who didn't make it and wanted others--key players in the drama of her young life--to understand why it came to this. Author Jay Asher's construction of the narrative really pulls you into Hannah's story, compelling you to read on to find out how other recipients of her tapes react and how Clay, the guy who might--might--have made a difference in Hannah's decision, reacts as well.
Suicide is a troubling subject. Some reviewers here seem to have dismissed Hannah's reasons as an unfair cop-out. I think that view misses the point.
My take on the tapes is that Hannah is not simply blaming her peers for her death--suicide is the despairing end result of a complex set of circumstances and traumas finally linking up--as trying to get them, finally, to see her. Adolescence is a fragile time in a person's life, and so many kids feel unknown and invisible.
She also intends the tapes to make everyone stop a moment and think, as Clay was forced to think as he listened.
Think about and take responsibility for how you behave toward others, especially how boys behave towards girls, though Hannah could just as easily have been an adolescent gay boy unraveled by a lifetime of bullying. Her tapes are a cautionary last testament; with them she is saying Pay Attention: this could happen to you too.
The development of the story was interesting and I really liked how the author put the narrations and thoughts together. This was one of my favorites book.
This is one of my favorite books. I found the format of how it was written to be really unique and interesting. I found this book to be extremely intriguing due to the plot and how at the end of each chapter, it's gets the reader even more intrigued and wanting to read the next chapter.
This was an interesting book - the way that it was written. I felt a long with the character listening, mostly with the anger he felt by what she did. It is a lesson in itself, how one thing can change the course of someone's life, how we are all connected. I hated when she went to seek out help in the end that she didn't tell him what was going on, she kind of made him guess - then gave up on herself. No one can read your mind, if you want help you have to tell someone what is going on - all the good and the bad.
Thirteen reasons why is a novel that explains why high school student Hannah Baker committed suicide. Shortly after her death, Clay Jenkins gets cassette tapes- all filled with Hannah's voice explaining the 13 reasons why she killed herself, and Clay just happens to be one of them. It's hard trying to say how I felt about this book, I didn't love it or even hate it, I just had mixed feelings about it. I'll start by saying that this book revolves around a great concept, and that there are definitely some morals and lessons we can learn from Hannah's story. However, I just felt that it could have been written better. Many people say that Hannah's reasons for killing herself were pity or selfish and I don't agree with that, they were her reasons and if there's anything I learnt from this book it's that little things do affect others, no matter how insignificant they seem it can be the turning point for someone else. I just felt like Hannah sold herself short too many times, high school can be a difficult experience but I felt like she took any situation and in the end always felt bad. I know she was under depression, and she defiantly did not deserve any of the bad experiences she got but I think it was her attitude that made things worse for her and I think that above everything, makes me feel sad. This was a girl who could have grown up to live a great life, showing her bullies that what they said to her didn't stop her from achieving her dreams. I was very curious as to why Hannah took her life which is why I kept reading, but I couldn't help but think that her main motive for killing herself is to get revenge on her bullies. Yes, some of the things that they did to her were just completely horrible but do they deserve to feel guilty about her death for the rest of their lives? I'm not sure. I don't agree with people who say they couldn't feel sympathy for Hannah or that she was just being selfish. I don't think many people realize how hard high school is for some people, it's a very pivotal time in a teenager's life and for some people it can be really hard. Hannah wasn't the victim in this story, she did have her flaws and play her part and for her to blame it completely on the actions of others isn't very just but I think we should be a bit more understanding she was obviously going through a rough time, I just wished she didn't give up. I still don't know how exactly I feel about Hannah, or this book but what I can take from it is that what we say to others, can have a huge impact on someone else's life, even if we see it as a minor thing. What I learned from Hannah is not that suicide is an answer, which is what some people take away from this book- suicide is never an option- but to feel a bit compassionate towards others and really watch our actions because it may just be the last straw for someone else. "Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you."
This book shows that if you don't watch your words, it can lead to unimaginable consequences that you could regret your whole life.
this book left me speechless, in a good way.
AgeAdd Age Suitability
FVawter thinks this title is suitable for 13 years and over
Wolfgirl20 thinks this title is suitable for between the ages of 14 and 18
black_dog_48284 thinks this title is suitable for between the ages of 10 and 18
rachelsp thinks this title is suitable for 13 years and over
angiem99 thinks this title is suitable for 13 years and over
piggypoo thinks this title is suitable for 13 years and over
lalalalalalalala thinks this title is suitable for 11 years and over
ANNA TRAN NGUYEN thinks this title is suitable for 12 years and over
indigo_nightingale_42 thinks this title is suitable for 13 years and over
cbyrdtucker thinks this title is suitable for 12 years and over
QuotesAdd a Quote
You'll do that right? All of you? You'll fill in the gaps? Because every story I'm telling leaves so many unanswered questions.
"I'm sorry..........................................thankyou."
" never judge a person by the way they are it hurts them in the inside and can cause manny things to happend"
"I hope you're ready, because I'm about to tell you the story of my life. More specifically, why my life ended. And if you're listening to these tapes, you're one of the reasons why."
"You can't stop the future
You can't rewind the past
The only way to learn the secret
...is to press play."
"life can give u 13 reasons"
You don't know what went on in the rest of my life. At home. Even at school. You don't know what goes on in any-one's life but your own. And when you mess with one part of a person's life, you're not messing with just that part. Unfortunatly, you can't be that precise and seletive. When you mess with one part of a person's life, you're messng with their entire life. -Hannah Baker Cassette 5: Side A
I meet your eyes
you don't even see me
You hardly respond
when I whisper
Could be my soul mate
two kindred spirits
Maybe we're not
I guess we'll never
My own mother
you carried me in you
Now you see nothing
but what i wear
People ask you
how I am doing
You smile and nod
don't let it end
Put me
underneath God's sky and
know me
don't just see me with your eyes
Take away
this mask of flesh and bone and
see me
for my soul
If love were an ocean,
there would be no more land.
If love were a desert,
you would see only sand.
If love were a star,
late at night-only light
And if love could grow wings
I'd be soaring in flight...
SummaryAdd a Summary
Clay receives box of cassettes from suicide girl at school telling story of what happened. Tapes are sent and resent to each person crucial to the story. Story of lies, rumors, indifference, things not noticed, awkward teen culture, HS culture, parents too busy, teen cruelty, rape at a party, sex for the wrong reasons, and a teacher/counselor with no discernible suicide prevention skills. Clay is not the bad guy but is sickened by the story and what he might have done to stop the trainwreck if he'd only known. Students and a teacher are on the "list." Clay may be a better person after this, all lives will be changed by the tapes.
Just read this book, okay ?
this book is about a girl who suicides herself but tells the others thatn did things to her what she couldnt tell them when she was alive. this book is so recommended
Clay Jensen, a somewhat shy high school student, returns home from school one day to find an anonymously-sent package sitting on his doorstep. Upon opening it, he discovers that it is a shoebox containing seven cassette tapes recorded by the late Hannah Baker, his classmate and emotional crush who recently committed suicide. The tapes were initially mailed to one classmate with instructions to pass them from one student to another, in the style of a chain letter. On the tapes, Hannah explains to thirteen people how they played a role in her death, by giving thirteen reasons to explain why she took her life. Hannah has given a second set of tapes to one of their classmates, the identity of whom Clay later discovers, and warns the people on the tapes that if they do not pass them on, the second set will be leaked to the entire student body. This could lead to the public embarrassment and shame of certain people, while others could face physical harassment charges or jail time. Through the audio narrative, Hannah reveals her pain and suffering and the slide into depression that ultimately leads to her death (suicide from pills). She lists her first crush, a boy who voted her "best ass in the freshman class", a former friend, a peeping Tom, a liar, a goof who takes advantage of her, a hater, a thief who steals her poems, a member of the list that already passed, a cheerleader who crashes into a stop sign, a guy who raped her in a hot tub, the guidance counselor, and Clay, her soul mate, all who thought their actions were harmless, or that they wouldn't affect or scar her. They were wrong.
Clay, a highschool student receives a box one day coming home from school. As he begins to listen, he hears Hannah, A student that he liked that recently commited scuicide. Hannah explains that there are 13 poeple that played a part in her decision to commit suicide. The box contains 8 tapes, each side has a number, 1 to 13. each with the story of one of the 13 poeple. Clay is incredibly confused as to why he was sent the tapes, as he feels he did no wrong to Hannah. As he listens he visits different places that some of the events Hannah mentions. He spends the night, wandering the town, listening to theese tapes and learning about hannah, and other poeple that affected her decision to take her life.
When high school student Clay Jenkins receives a box in the mail containing thirteen cassette tapes recorded by his classmate Hannah, who committed suicide, he spends a bewildering and heartbreaking night crisscrossing their town, listening to Hannah's voice recounting the events leading up to her death.
NoticesAdd a Notice
Sexual Content: rape
Violence: aggressive actions
Coarse Language: foul language
Sexual Content: very specific with rape and sexual content
Other: interesting and a page turner
Coarse Language: foul launguage
VideosAdd a Video
Thirteen Reasons Why Book Trailer
A book trailer for Thirteen Reasons Why by an entrant in the Christchurch City Libraries Summer Reading Film Competition.
13 Reasons Why-OPL Teen Tech Week Video Contest 2013: 3rd Place winner
This is a short trailer that was created for the Ottawa Public Library Teen Video Contest. The 2013 3rd Place Winner
Hannah's First Tape
Find it at NYPL
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YYC Holy Smoke Bbq
Holy Smoke Barbecue and Smokepit
(403) 605-9365
4640 Manhattan Rd SE
Calgary, AB T2G
Drove by it the other day, just wondering if anyone has had a chance to try it as I am not often in that area............... and, well I had just finished a Rocky burger and didn't want to be a bad role model to the children
I believe this is a caterer. It seems like the meal descriptions are for 50-100 people. I am pretty sure these guys provided the concession food at BBQ on the Bow last year. I was not impressed with my pre-cooked pulled pork. I don't remember for sure.. but I think it was Holy Smoke.
re: TSAW
Their food is awesome. The link above is for their BBQ truck, which they use to cater for private events. This link has their restaurant menu and pricing. Their brisket is out of this world.
re: profeater
10am-4pm Monday to Friday? bummer.
This place is for real . Had the beef brisket. Very good. They also have a variety of BBQ sauces - South Carolina (mustard! YES!), Missouri (vinegar based), hot and house. All very good.
Next week will try the pulled pork and the ribs (they ran out today).
Stopped in today, we sampled the ribs, beef brisket and pulled pork. This is the real deal, fantastic bbq. All of the sauces are made in house. I sampled the South Carolina, Mama and Hot Mama...all delicious.
The only thing that sucks are the hours 10am to 4 pm Mon-Fri, also location is a little weird.
re: Major_9000
From the looks of their website it seems they're mainly a caterer - maybe that's why the odd hours/location?
re: Major_9000
Went recently as well, agree with you. Two comments though: Firstly the pulled pork and brisket are on the lean side, which I have found is typically not the norm, though my arteries prefer it. Secondly, do squirt sauce on them otherwise they might be a bit drier than the norm.
The ribs are fantastic, tasty with some heat. Clearly a very good deal. The potato salad is very good as well.
re: Scary Bill
I went yesterday out of curiousity. I just got back from Austin not too long ago so was ready to compare :o) I found the brisket pretty dry tbh; I wonder if they're using what is called "lean brisket" as opposed to "fatty brisket" (bbq terminology in Texas). The ribs were excellent. Get there early as they do get really busy.
re: sweeterpea
The first time I got the brisket, it was very, very moist. Today not so much. I'm not really upset though as I don't need all that fat.
re: sweeterpea
I just made my first venture to Holy Smokes last week and would have to agree about the dry brisket. I found myself dipping it in one of their many sauces for almost each bite. Anyone have a favorite sauce yet? I just took a hot in addition to the one you get with the brisket. Both those tasted good.
The ribs were fall off the bone and tender. Even though they supply a sauce I didn't use it but will try it next time. The potato salad was very good, it was more of a Euro style with less mayo which I liked.
Overall I was hoping for better brisket but will go back. Everyone working there was very friendly. Place was very clean. It's nice to have an addition like this in south Calgary for lunch.
re: hclass
We went and enjoyed it. Brisket dry, dip in sauce. Bought more ribs. They were excellent and will bring me back. I wish they had not ran out of "hot links". Wanted to try them.
It's Calgary commercial barbeque.
re: The Gut
I have been a few times now and am quite happy with the quality of their food. Ribs are excellent and very close to what comes out of my weber smoker, pulled pork is also excellent.
When Oxford did the official "unveiling" of their rennovation plans for the Bow Valley Square complex, these guys catered the event in the lobby with breakfast burritos. One of the options was a beef brisket burrito, and dear GOD it was amazing. I went back about 5 times...I think I ended up eating damn near 10 of those bad boys (they were fairly small).
I discovered it last month and I've been back 5 times more. The food is so tasty, love the sides as well with baked beans being my favourite so far. Great starr as well. I love the decor and the dinnerware. They serve everything on a cafeteria tray covered with butcher's paper and it's just perfect.
re: DianneYYC
Well I finally got to taste Holy Smoke today and I am impressed. After visiting rockies burger bus on my way back downtown I noticed Holy Smoke, as I was stuffed I did not stop. Next time driving down Manhattan road I pulled over. Unfortunately it was closed but I peaked in the windows at the back. What I didnt see dismayed me, no smoker! thinking the might just be a place that bakes their meat I was worried. Well today when I pulled over there was as before a big black trailer with smoke pouring out a smokestack and it smelt great. A quick look in the open door showed a smoker.
I had the beef brisket, ribs and potato salad. All were great I found the small sandwich to be a good size and along with my sides I was stuffed. I unlike most Q purists like sauce and Holy Smoke caters to that love. They have numerous sauces and are happy to recommend which compliments which dish. I too appreciate the decor and butcher paper service. Ribs had a great flavour and showed the indicative pink smoke ring, also like the Buck a Bone price point. Looking forward to returning, now if only they could be open a little later and maybe on weekends too.
Go try it!
re: 300rwhp
I asked about extended hours during a visit there a couple of weeks ago. Look for them to be open evenings and weekends in early fall (if i remember correctly).
re: DianneYYC
"They serve everything on a cafeteria tray covered with butcher's paper and it's just perfect."
FYI: That is how BBQ is served ....white bread, sliced cheese with pickles on the side, sliced brisket or choice of meat served on butcher paper over a tray... sides in individual bowls as you move down the "cafeteria style" line.
Welcome to the Q!
re: cdn
I know it's tradition to serve Q with white bread, but I really feel strongly that this would be a good time to break with tradition. IMHO, a nice rustic whole wheat bun would really elevate this dish. Something with a bit of substance that wouldn't get completely obliterated by the meat juices. I know it wouldn't be traditional, but I'd be all over that.
Regardless, that won't be stopping me from returning to Holy Smoke. Last time I was there, they were pretty much out of everything (it was stampede and corporate parties had cleaned them out). Still wanting to try the ribs and some of the sides... Hmm, maybe today...
I finally made it to Holy Smoke today. Very very good. Normally at 'other' BBQ places in town, most of the sides truely suck. The beans at HS were tender and meaty, in a sweet way. The moist mini-corn breads let you have a crusty outside, rather than just a thick slice. I had the small beef brisket, served on a delicious FRESH non-soggy bun. The sauce was light and you could add more, as you wanted. There were at least 6 sauces to try - Hot, House, Mama, Jack D's, Mustard, Horseradish, that I tried. I think I had more sauce samples on my tray than meat!
The prices were cheap. I got a beef bun, 1 rib, beans and cornbread for same or less than a meat Subway sandwich!
I will be back! I too wish they would have extended hours, like Friday night take out and/or Saturday afternoons...
Drove by last Saturday and the open sign was on. I haven't been able to try this place yet since I work in the NW. I'm gonna try and make it this weekend.
re: Craig L
As a lover (and experienced Pit Boss of sorts) of true Southern BBQ, I sought out Holy Smoke last week after a friend had told me about it and said I should check it out...
It was a Friday afternoon around 2pm, so the fact that they were sold out of the baked beans and potato salad could be justified (and as an industry veteran, I take some responsibility for my timing!!) I chose the small Pulled Pork Sandwich, 3 ribs (at $1 each...pretty good deal!) coleslaw & a corn "muffin".
I am a fan of MEAT, so I generally don't go for sauce, and to frank, the rather large selection of sauces made me pause slightly and wonder what they're trying to hide with all them sauces!! I digress. The pulled pork was the best item on my tray (LOVE the tray/paper!!), so sauce was not necessary, anyway...though I did find a couple big long stringy pieces (just needed to be pulled a bit more, perhaps), the flavor and tenderness were pretty smoky & good! I liked the wee bun, nice & dense to hold up to the meat, fresh & if I'm not mistaken, some cornmeal or semolina added for flavor & density? I was more interested in the meat, though, so only just snacked on the bun...It would have been nice, though, had I been ASKED whether or not I wanted the slaw topper on the actual sandwich (again, I prefer my meat straight up, uncorrupt!) The ribs, I found, were "clinging tenaciously to the bone" (I've been waiting 6 YEARS to be able to use that!!!) and lacking in smoke flavor( I might have given them another hour or 2 in the pit!)...these I did actually dip in sauce (My choice WOULD have been Jack Daniel's BBQ, but the GIANT bottle was kinda crusty & gross, and really, how often is a bottle that size replenished?!) so I chose one of their homemade sauces...I quite liked it! Nice and zingy but not overly spicy & made the ribs a little better. The coleslaw, while freshly made to order, was really bland, and the corn "muffin" was exactly that. Almost like a cake muffin w/ some cornmeal added, good...for breakfast, maybe.
The young girl who took my order was friendly & polite, but the guy in the kitchen (chef? owner?) was quite obviously having a bad day! I will definitely go back to try the brisket (I love the 'fatty' bits, so perhaps I'll specify!) beans, and potato salad. OH! 7 i love that they serve Pop Shoppe pop!
Did anybody else find amusing the statement: "We feed you like you're one of our own" with the picture of the Hillbillies? Are those two "One of their own"?!
re: Eat Yokel
I totally agree that the pulled pork is the best item I've had there. Also I've frequently found that the ribs could use slightly more rub as well as a little more time on the smoker to develop a bit more bark, render off a little more fat and ultimately allow the meat to pull cleanly from the bone. I think this is likely the case because they have so much demand for the ribs that occasionally they're taken out a bit early.
Holy smoke is without question one of my favourite places in town but I do find the ribs to be a little bit rushed at times. If you're not into thick/sweet sauces, I definitely recommend using a bit of the vinegary Missouri sauce on any of their pork offerings.
Dropped by there today and saw 2 cop cars outside and thought to myself, "this place MUST be good". I recently went to Memphis, TN and enjoyed some really outstanding BBQ at Central BBQ and Corky's and was missing the taste of good southern style BBQ. I decided to check this place out because it sounded interesting and I wasn't disappointed. Central BBQ, in my opinion, still has the best sauce to ever grace meat but I give props to Holy Smoke for cooking their meat to a good medium (not too dry/moist/stringy). I ordered the Beef Brisket, Rib, Potato Salad, and Corn Bread. The meat was well prepared, it wasn't too dry but it could have been a little more moist in order to be perfect. Definitely recommended for your southern fix.
re: nonlinear
re: Scary Bill
They don't respond to their E mails, your choices are limited!
re: nonlinear
Sorry, not thinking. Thanks for the info.
Went again on Saturday and was glad to get there around noon because the place was full and lined up by 12:30. Seems like this place has officially been discovered by the Saturday lunch crowd. Could tell by the chatter that many were there for the first time.
The food is terriffic and inexpensive, two can eat well for $20. Their meat is nicely smoked (not oversmoked like I often do in the summer in the backyard!!!), some of the many sauces are unique in flavour, and the staff is as nice as you'll ever find. Oh, and they smoke with applewood, fyi.
re: Scary Bill
Thanks to the chowhound board I have made Holy Smoke one of my regular places to visit for lunch. I absolutely love everything about this place.
My one complaint about this place seems rather petty but I do need to bring it up. I smell like a chimny when I get back to the office. I had to buy an industrial sized bottle of Febreze to help mask the applewood smell that clings to my clothes. I know... suck it up dude... and I do. But for those who don't like to smell their meal hours (days!) after you have left the restaurant, I am just giving you a heads up.
re: DeeDub
That's odd because their smoker is outside. I wonder where the smell is coming from?
re: derfster
I know! I cannot figure it out either. I took a co-worker there last week and she told me she had to wash her hair twice that night to get rid of the smell. It's not going to stop me from going but I could do without the inevitable drycleaning bill that comes with it. ;-)
re: DeeDub
I was talking to one of the guys this winter about how they keep their temps up when it's minus 30. They have a smoker inside now as well. I've smelled like bbq for hours after being in there for 20 mins haha. A new ventilation system is hopefully in the works!
re: johnjohnson78
So let me get this right. People go to a place called Holy Smoke and then complain about smelling of smoke. Is that not like jumping in a swimming pool and moaning that it was a bit wet? That lingering smell is great advertising too. If someone came back to the office smelling that good I'd be down there like a shot. Tried it a few times now and LOVE this place. I've been going for a few buck a bone ribs along with a brisket or pork sandwich and an apple juice, surrounded by a half dozen sauce bottles. Tip: If you're going to try the lip blister sauce have it last, not first.
re: greenboy
Indeed. If I went to a barbeque place and didn't smell smoke from the parking lot and then take the smell home with me, I would not go back. I haven't had good barbeque in a couple years and will definitely check this place out.
re: johnjohnson78
I run a cabinet style "Stumps" smoker and its insulated between the inner and outer skins. At running temps of 225-350 depending what I'm smoking the snow on top doesn't melt and the sides get hotter when in direct sun then from loss of heat. I love it!
re: alley
Just went there for lunch yesterday, trying just about everything. The brisket is indeed too lean, and shy of the perfection of a well marbled brisket, both for taste and texture. I don't care about my arteries I guess, I'd rather eat well less often. We still enjoyed it quite a bit, it's just not stellar. The pulled pork was also solid, although needed some sauce to up the moisture and flavor. The ribs were not falling off the bone, and were oversmoked a bit, making it hard to eat more than a couple. They also badly needed a bit more salt. The cornbread and macaroni salad were our favorite sides, and none of the sauces were anything to write home about. Overall I'm still very glad they're here and will totally go back, even if it's not perfect q.
re: tatiana131
Each to their own taste, which is fair. I've always found the food at Holy Smoke to be terrific. As an aside, to comment on one of your comments "the ribs were not falling off the bone"... I've always been of both the opinion (and understanding) that properly BBQ'd (smoked) ribs are NOT supposed to fall off the bone, so I have no issue that theirs don't
Although, for my taste, one thing that I don't like about their ribs is that they always still have the back membrane on them.
re: NumberFive
I guess for brisket texture, I'm thinking of Schwartz in Montreal (or other smoked meat places) as the gold standards of moisture and texture. For pork, I'm thinking my own backyard.
For ribs - again, I've made better in my oven, but without the smoke. I bought a large bag and will try to steam some smoke out of them when I'm heating them up tonight. Long and slow, and hopefully they'll be more tender AND less smoky. I betcha they keep the membrane on so that the racks don't fall apart though.
re: tatiana131
Agreed on Schwartz, that is the gold standard, especially if you don't go with the "lean" option.
re: NumberFive
But this is barbecue not Montreal smoked meat. They're not the same thing. I have had Schwartz & I grew up in Alabama, lived in Texas & I would never, ever think to compare the two using one as the "gold standard" over the other.
re: Merry113
I don't expect it to be the same. But that's my standard for moisture/ fat in beef brisket.
re: Merry113
Apples and oranges! A good Reuben is one of my favorites, but so is a good Southern smoked brisket. The only similarities are that it comes from a cow...both can be 'gold standard', but in different categories altogether.
Southern-style BBQ is messy...it's rustic...and it's smoky as hell (or should be)! the Rendezvous in Memphis is World famous, & can only be found by "following your nose" through the city, deeking down a skid back alley & by-passing 6 big BFI garbage bins to experience it!
Holy Smoke does a great job of emulating real southern style barbecue...the ribs aren't braised for the "fall off the bone" experience...which in competition, would win awards...The membrane is a preference, as much as "skin-on-vs-skin-off" chicken breasts...The smoke (smell, taste, lingering effects) are a huge part of the experience of eating BBQ, & if these boys have brought another smoker in...all the better...in another couple of years, they're whole place will be good n' smoky, & as well seasoned as any of the best "shanty-shack-on-the-side-of-the-interstate" BBQ joints out there!
re: NumberFive
Membrane is supposed to be left on. Keeps fat from falling off. Of course, as with all things BBQ there's no real agreement on this.
re: Shazam
Gotta say, this is the first time I've ever heard the advice to leave the membrane on. Just doesn't make sense to me.
re: Leibowitz
For smoked, yes. I think it's beyond gross that someone would bake ribs, but whatever.
re: Shazam
Depending on your recipe they can turn out really good. Everyone I've ever served them to have raved. However they are not Southern bbq in any form or fashion.
re: NumberFive
While BBQ'd ribs are definitely not supposed to be "fall off the bone tender", they should pull cleanly from the bone. In other words, the rib should have enough texture that you can take a discernible bite without the rib falling apart but the meat should not be stuck to the bone. From what I understand these are two of the more important elements judges look at in serious BBQ competitions and what makes BBQ'ing ribs such an art. I certainly didn't make up these rules but I do tend to agree with them.
From my experience the ribs at holy smoke certainly don't fall apart but they don't pull cleanly from the bone either. I'd prefer if they seasoned the ribs a bit more (salt mostly) and cooked them a little longer. Just my 2 cents...
Love the place regardless
re: johnjohnson78
You are correct - the meat should not fall off the bone in competition ribs. The Kansas City BBQ Society says that the texture of a rib should be able to leave a discernable bite mark and pull cleanly off the bone. This is also the case with the PNWBA. Fall off the bone tends to indicate they are over cooked and meat sticking to the bone are commonly under-cooked.
re: johnjohnson78
Did someone mention fall off the bone?
Try my smoked baby back ribs.
re: electroleum
They're opening a new place after 9 months? Seems a tad premature. I remember Big T's going on the same kind of spree and the quality of all of the store was never as good as the first.
re: electroleum
Any idea when it will open?
re: Zydecopapa
Just passed the new location.... It's on 16th Ave across from Peter's (ish). Signage is up but not open.
re: Merry113
Whoa, that means I can get a shake at Peter's and go across the street for BBQ!
re: Merry113
Any news on the North location? I need my 'fix' soon.
re: TSAW
Got takeout from the 16th Ave location on Friday. Had the ribs & cornbread. Both were excellent. Looks like they have a little counter for you to eat there as well.
I asked the lady at working at the counter about their hours, and she said they may be open later starting next week, possibly until 9pm or so.
I haven't tried their other location in the SE so I can't compare, but I really like this new place.
Delicious pulled pork, and some tasty sides and sauces. I could only eat 2 ribs, though. As others have said, they're both underseasoned and oversmoked for my taste.
And I agree that they could use a better ventilation system. Still, I will definitely be going back!
I took the C-Train there, and I feared the worst for the walk from the station (39th Avenue). It's actually a pleasant 10-minute walk with sidewalks most of the way.
re: 23skidoo
We are coming down next Thursday for Stampede and thought we would go here for the Pulled Pork about 1:00. What are the best side dishes and will it be busy. Is it still the same as the reviews?
Dean in Red Deer
re: carlitguy
I find them to be very consistant. For me it's the bones @ a buck per. All the sides are good whatever you like that day.
re: carlitguy
Order everything and share. 1:00 should be not too busy.
re: carlitguy
The cornbread muffins are very sweet. I think they are moist and nice but be warned on the sweetness. Coleslaw very good. Beans also on the sweeter side. Potatoe salad good in an ordinary way, not super creamy. Chili is very similar to the beans but smoked meat in it. They are all really reasonably priced, so sharing is probably the best way to go.
Enjoy! Let us know what you thought!
re: carlitguy
it's cornbread, ribs and coleslaw for me
re: carlitguy
for sides, i usually go with slaw and a couple of ribs. slaw is OK (i'm picky and I can make much better at home), ribs are good for a buck.
re: carlitguy
For me I love the cornbread, it's a little sweet but mixed with the hot sauces it's perfect for mopping up the juices. Ribs can be a little inconsistent but the last few times I've been there (usually once a week), it's been getting much better.
My favourite is the Manwich when I'm really hungry, otherwise it's the pulled pork.
re: slingshotz
Holy Smoke about Holy Smoke! We were down for the Stampede on Thursday and ended up there about 2:00 after getting all our running around done. There were only a few other people there so we got fast service. Our daughter had said she has heard nothing but good comments so we were expecting a treat.
We ordered 5 ribs, large chili, baked beans and a cornbread. We wanted water but they don't have ice so they gave us colder tap water.
The service was prompt and we really, really thought all of our choices were excellent quality. I then odered 3 more ribs and a cornbread which my wife promptly grabbed along with one more of the ribs.
I would definitly go again.
The smoke smell was not bad in the restaurant as the front door was open and we could have eaten outside as most of the tables were empty.
This added to our Stampede experience.
Dean in Red Deer.
re: KnifeSkills
Stopped in the north store, there wasn't a counter for eating yet but they told me their putting one in. He said they had some tough decisions to make and went for the better kitchen option. I'm going to ask about chicken next time, if they added that I'd be giddy.
Having the take out liquor in the same parking lot seems potentially good.
re: The Gut
a couple pounds of ribs and a brown bag of Jack and you could be a good ol' boy for a while!
re: Scary Bill
We wen't to the North location again yesterday. Sign says they deliver and they have a tasty chick N sandwich now.
My only complaint is the rootbeer is 2.45 a bottle. Guess I should have grabed that bag o' Jack.
I've made a couple of trips to Holy Smoke on Manhattan in the last few weeks, but have not come away overly impressed. It's a great concept and hip place to get behind, but each of my visits have found the food overall pretty lacking.
The Good'ish
- Chicken sandwich was tasty. Happy to be eating the good parts of the bird (thighs) and the mayo sauce had a nice flavor. Slaw on the bun was a positive addition and the small sandwich, like all the sandwiches, represents a pretty good value.
- General ambiance and value is good as well. Friday afternoon Pilsner special warranted a return visit, and I could see really getting into the NASCAR footage on the tv's after a handful of the $3.50 cans. Prices are fair and while the sides aren't spectacular, you could put together a feed of sandwich, ribs, side and cornbread for under twenty bucks.
The not-so-good
- Chopped brisket. Dry and flavorless. Totally lacking in smoke flavor and chopped and pulled to such a degree I had to double check the sandwich to make sure I hadn't accidentally been given pulled pork. Compared to the slices of smokey, juicy, fatty brisket I've had at Big D's this was a total disappointment. I came back a couple days later and grabbed another to go just to see if I'd caught them on an off day, but the result was the same. :-(
- Ribs have a tasty enough rub, but are a bit dry and again largely lacking in smoke. The price is good at a buck a bone, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay much more for them. I won't wade into the "fall-off-the-bone" debate, and I'm not sure what would be considered the most "authentic", dry or sauced, but I find the dominant flavor with these to be the herb rub, not smoke or even sauce.
- Where's the smoke? I'm not saying I want to be bowled over by smoke flavor, but nothing that I've eaten here really seemed to carry enough flavor. I know up-thread people have noted that the once smokey dining room is now much less pungent. Perhaps they have toned things down, or are actually running their smokers a little less...I know on my last visit the pulled pork sandwich being prepared before my brisket and ribs was loaded into the steam tray from a big vacuum sealed bag.
It looks like this place has a certain amount of fans, and vibe-wise it seems like a great place to blow-off Friday afternoon at work for, but based on taste I'd rather grab grub from Big D's, pick up a sixer of Old Milwaukee tallboys and tailgate in a parking lot somewhere.
re: howlin
I'm assuming KcM is referring to Big T's, near the University.
re: nonlinear
Nope , In the Calgary Farmers market
re: Budca
Yeah, Calgary Farmer's Market.
I don't know if it's any more "authentic", but for my palette Big D's at the CFM is great.
Ribs have a sweeter sauce that gives the smoke something to bounce off, though they are a buck and a half each. (and they are a bit on the dry side too, though I suspect that comes comes with any ribs that are coming out of a heat-lamp/steam-tray...if you want juicy ribs you should probably put in the hours in front of the 'cue). Brisket is served sliced; juicy, smokey and with a nice crust. I also like their corn fritters over corn bread, and they make great fries. I found their hot-link a little dry, but I haven't had one at Holy Smoke to compare. Ambience is CFM (like it or loath it) and they're only open thurs-sun, but the flavor wins.
I really love this place! I have been several times to both the north and south locations and continue to be a fan! I love the variety of home made bbq sauces and the corn bread is fantastic! I find the prices to be very reasonable. I like to get this as take out and treat the people at work... always a hit!
re: jsfoodchat
Is there a "Big D's" I need to try? I have enjoyed sharing the small platter at Big T's with friends but it has never been good enough to defend them on here.
I need to give the Chick-N-wich another try but I'm excited they added chicken to the menu.
I'm really there for the ribs. Buck a bone? I'm in! I also pour multiple puddles of sauce on my tray to drag them through!
re: The Gut
Evidently there's a Big D's at CFM http://www.calgaryfarmersmarket.ca/ve...
re: maplesugar
Nice, time to investigate.


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Nudism in the New Misogyny
American nudism has never been terribly female-friendly. Both major nudist organizations, AANR and TNS, have always been quite male-dominated. And yet, there has always been an expressed desire to bring more women to nudism.
I had always believed that the desire to bring more women to the nudist movement was simply to create a demography that more closely matched the demography of the planet at large. Recently I have started to wonder if the drive to bring gender balance to nudism is to give nudist men more breasts to stare at, and more opportunity to get laid.
It is no secret that our world is becoming more misogynistic. From the use of rape in war to the growing Islamic rule in Europe to the anti-woman agenda of the Republican Party in the United States, the power of women is declining across the planet.
In nudism, I have noticed some disturbing trends that reflect this same downward spiral. Old-school nudist leaders (all male) seem to believe that female nudists have a responsibility to them, or to the movement. Women are expected to entertain male nudists with conversation and companionship. Male nudists in leadership positions feel comfortable slapping a nude female butt, or grabbing a breast. Often, when a complaint is made, other female nudists will assure the women that "He's harmless," or "He thought you were someone else."
Many nudists, both male and female, stick with the mantra of "That just doesn't happen here." We want to believe in the sanctity of our movement. Denial is a powerful thing.
Very recently, I have noticed a new trend amongst nudist men. I have actually heard the assertion that, since we chose to be nude, we are over-sexed; we desire male attention more than the average woman does.
That seems like something right out of the 1950's, doesn't it? "Just look at how she dresses, she must be a slut," has translated to this. "She's a nudist; she must want to have sex with me."
Regardless of what might be going on beyond the gates of our resorts or the shores of our beaches, the nude environment needs to be physically and emotionally safe for women. Nudist men need to realize that women serve a function in nudism beyond that of a simple commodity.
It's time to stop blaming the advertising world for deterring women from nudism, and start looking at our own behavior.
There was a time when nudist organizations discouraged nude dancing and nude dining. Even the most innocent public displays of affection were forbidden. The goal of these draconian rules was to keep everyone comfortable, and keep everyone safe. Sometimes, especially if alcohol is involved, simple nudity can degrade into something more lewd.
I do not want to return to those days. I want to be able to hold hands with my husband as we lounge by the pool. I want to be able to attend a dinner dance at a resort in my nudist uniform.
I also want to be treated with respect, and to feel safe. I want to bring my female friends from the textile world into the world of nudism and know that they will not be harassed. These things aren't mutually exclusive, are they?
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congratulations! You just expressed all the opinions I've been talking about for 50 years. Unfortunatly, I haven't seen much improvement by the male population. They still feel that if a woman undresses for anything but bathing, or allow photos taken of her nude or partially nude, she wants to have sex. I don't know how to change this. I've run men's consciousness raising groups and written about it, but still see no change. One of the first examples was a yahoo group named "Reluctant Partners." the members were all men (with one exception) who complained about their wives not willing to join them in the lifestlye - even around the house! I have no faith whatsoever in AANR or TNS. I don't see them really making more than a token gesture.
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Your article
Very interesting. I'm on the board of directors of AANR West (where a woman, Patty Faber is President). I am the PR chairperson for AANR where 4 of the 5 core press release and blog writers are woman, (I'm the token male). AANR is headed by a Wman President, Susan Weaver and TNS is headed by a woman, Nicky Hoffman.
My wife and I have owned The Terra Cotta Inn for over 17 years so we are not newbies to the nudist world.
Yes, I know of some places which are very male dominated. I also know of other places that are extremely first timer friendly and extremely friendly towards women. So you can't just make a blanket statement.
The desire to bring more women into nude recreation is a strategic move. We know once women enjoy nude recreation, they are hooked for life.
As far as your ideas about bringing women in to get laid, that seems so off base. I have never heard anything like that before until you wrote this. And slapping grabbing a breast? I know if anyone ever did that to Mary Clare (my wife) they would certainly get slapped and I encourage any woman to do the same. The jerk that did that should have their sorry ass tossed out of nudism.
Now that leads me to the next issue. Anyone can take their clothes off and call themselves a nudist. It doesn't mean that they have the right intentions. Someone that ruins another persons day is just a rude asshole, not a nudist.
I have never heared that nudsit women are oversexed BS. Must be an East coast thing.
I agree, that advertising is not the only thing detering women from trying nude recreation. Go to most nude beaches in the US and you will find lots of single naked men leering at women. They're not nudists, they're pervs, unfortunately a first timer doesn't know the difference.
I'm enjoying what you are writing and I encourage you to continue. My wife and I do NOT hide our heads in the sand. And I think if you get to know more people in AANR you will find they feel the same way.
HAve a fun Labor Day holiday weekend. Tom
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women and nudity
I feel that when some of the mens's magazines started to use women in them they sort of shut the door on women nudity. Women began to think the all men were just after their bodies as a sexual thing. True some men just want one thing! But when you are married being nude together is a different... How would a couple get together and have childern if they didn't see each other in the nude?
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Nudist organizations and misconceptions
Please do not group all males into the group with the letches. They do make their presence known, and it is easy to assume that all males act the same way. We used to be a member of a nudist resort, and the curator would "flirt" or "proposition" females, under the guise of "testing' the females to ensure they were not swingers...we DID NOT appreciate being tested. We are not currently members of either AANR or TNS, but we were members of AANR when we members of that resort. We do not see AANR as a protective element in nudism, or at least they have not done a very good job. But, my wife has also been approached and propositioned by females also.
I do take a point of disagreement on your statement of the "anti-woman agenda of the Republican Party". We are all allowed to have our own opinions concerning personal choices and beliefs. The Republican party (as a group) may have chosen a stance different than yours. But that is a stance based upon thier beliefs, and a lot of women share those beliefs. It may be a war of beliefs, but not of women. You may or may not, have common or disagreements, with other women. If males were the ones that carried the child, I still would believe that ending a pregnancy was against MY personal beliefs. If a political group disagreed with my stance, I would not consider them anti-male, I would consider their belifs different than mine. That being said...back to nudism!
A funny story that sort of applies to your comments; several years ago, we were friends with a couple, we bowled on a league together, and were friends in and out of the nudist resort. We were at the resort one weekend, and we were sitting around the campsite, and suddenly the wife of the couple swatted my butt. Suddenly the whole "No Touching" rule came to her mind, and began to apologize all over her self. As it turns out, a wasp had landed on my butt cheek, and she was shooing it away. I apreciated her swatting my butt, it was much less painfull than getting stung. As much as she was apologizing, I was thanking her. I was also very confident, that her intentions were pure of heart, and I was truly thankful. I am not making excuses for guys grabbing a woman's breast or butt, as I believe if we want more female, young, old, disabled, whatever persons to join our nudist activities, we need to make the environment safe, comfortable, and accessible; furthermore fun really helps too! I think if we could focus the emphasis on the comfort, and fun aspects of nudity, NOT the nude aspect, we might have more members! The point of CLOTHING OPTIONAL resorts. I have never been to a required nudity facility.
Well, there is my two cents,
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As important as is the topic of equality of pay, I think the 23 million americans are more concerned about getting a salary first, then equal the playing field. On a simular note, where I work, now and in previous positions, my salary has always been an individual negotiation. The male of female working along side of me may make more or less depending on qualifications...and their negotiating skills. I am not sure how that could be equalized without collective bargaining. We both know where collective bargaining ends up...corruption. I have always believed in the idea of success based on personal talents, initiative and willingness to work. Let me ask this; if two equally qualified employees are tasked with the same task, one works 8 hours a day and goes home, whereas the other stays late and gets more done...do they deserve the same compensation?
Back to your discussion; I may have been off topic, but was trying to bring real life circumstances into the discussion, not just hypothetical situations. Every circumstance must be judged on the situation when determining it's appropriateness. This is a subjective decision, so it is difficult to make hard and fast rules.
So yes, it is a discussion we all need to have, but I don't think there is a lot black and white regions, but a lot of gray. Any time one person make physical contact with another, irreguardless of gender, appropriateness should be a concern. Keeping in mind, contact with me which I feel is appropriate, might not be with you. This is especially true if in a position of managment.
Sorry for any gramatical errors in the reply, I was writing fast and not spell checking. :(
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Equal pay
Do not misunderstand, I said it would be almost impossible to enforce. Different people of both genders and races make more or less than others in my group. No it is not acceptable to pay someone less based on gender...nor race...nor being a white male. but without several instances within a single organization and a whistle blower...how are you ever going to enforce any law banning such behavior?
Well, my wife just informed me it is time to go out...will be back tomorrow. I have to treat a lady with respect and dignity!!!
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To verify the definition of misogyny, I looked it up in a dictionary. The definition was simply "Hatred of women".The current behavior at some nudists resorts that you discuss although inappropriate, demeaning, and condescending, I am not sure I would define as "hatred". Hatred to me is what a rapist, or serial killers that targets women do. The groping and fondling of which you mention, appears to me to be more of a jealousy. We have all heard of the demeaning term "Penis envy", I believe these people could suffer from "vagina envy". It appears; at least to me; they wish they had, what it is you have got.
The discussion mentioned equal pay for equal work, of which I am a believer. I am not convinced this is not a similar situation. If the management hated women, they would never have hired the woman, instead they just "put her in her place" by paying her less and expecting more (Yes, I believe women have to work harder than males in the same job, which is why my personal physician is a female(That, and smaller hands)). Maybe the term "Misogyny", is just a little bit of an exaggeration, used to get the attention of the reader...maybe?
I would probably go so far as to say that the people are untrustworthy of a leadership position. They use gender as an excuse for their own shortcomings, are threatened by a female, and are insecure with themselves. I keep thinking of the saying about the guy who drives a pickup truck jacked wayyy up in the air with the huge tires, and the vehicle is impeccably clean..."Nice truck, sorry about your penis".
I am by no means an expert in the field of psychology...but I do have a friend (Yes, I do have friends, believe it or not!) that is incredibly bright, and has some amount of formal education in this field. I will ask her to read the blog, and post her opinions, or maybe just give me her opinions, and I will share them. Hers would be an interesting perspective.
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Fact Checking
From Wikipedia "According to feminist theory, misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women."
Unwanted touch, at least here in Florida, a crime. "Battery is the crime of touching another person in an unwanted way, regardless of the outcome. Under Florida battery laws, your body is your sacred. Intentionally touching another in any unwanted way can lead to a battery charge, whether it was a simple unwanted touch or contact that leads to great bodily harm, permanent disability or disfigurement." Source is K. L. Foote, P. A. website: http://www.tampabaycriminallaw.com/Battery-Defense-Attorney.html.
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men who don't get it
You are correct that men don't always realize that what they are doing is wrong. That's why we created a brochure and web page specifically for that purpose. We have euphemistically called it "making friends in naturism". (I tried to put a link to it but it triggers the auto spam filter and won't let me post with it)
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So according to your definition, if a man touches, looks at (even in a glance) says, or reacts in any way a woman doesn't like it's battery? Is it battery if I do any of these things to another male? Excuse me, but I do not mean to "corner you in conversation", I wouldn't want to charged with harassment or battery.
If this is the intolerance of this blog, I think I will be cancelling my account
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Prima Donna?
Law is law. A man touching a man or woman, or a woman touching a woman or man, and that touch is unwanted, might get charged with battery in Florida.
You brought up glancing or talking. I don't think those things would be considered as as battery.
As for tolerance or intolerance, I simply pointed out that your statement seems inconsistent with the current use of the term "misogyny." It wasn't meant as a comment either way. You seem pretty intolerant of anyone who disagrees with you!
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failed rhetoric
I can attest to witnessing the misconduct your talking about first hand and the continued denial by the nudist and naturist community. Even if misbehavior is brought to the attention of management/authority, unless a situation is high profile gossip worthy it is ignored, especially if the perpetrator is a long time member or resident. Most of the time it's not reported due to a number of factors and reasons. I have even encountered this behavior within my own home club and it is really shaking a creed in naturism the began very strongly for me. Its not just males creeping on females it's males on males too. A perfect example is a new person comes to a swim or other event and is propositioned or touched but they feel uncomfortable because they are the newb coming into an established social group and possibly making wild accusations against one or more individuals who are respected or well known by all. There is a chance that the perps are nobodies as well but if a person feels uncomfortable they end up hating themselves for trying to be nude in a social setting only for such a situation to happen. So they just leave and don't come back not to mention warn away anyone else they know sighting their own bad experience. Its no wonder clubs are not retaining new members. What is really disheartening is regardless of the fact that there was actually a witness, when a person has a bad experience and they do have the courage to tell a member like me, there is no way to go to bat for them. They have to come to a meeting or something to stand up and alienate themselves by practically testifying allowed for everyone. Even a mock tribunal may not actually serve to change anything.
I know a lot of "men" get defensive on the subject even when a "simple" touch on the shoulder is the issue but what they fail to realize is that other males or people who have come to nudism for more than social nudity do witness the behavior of others and use it as an excuse to mimic it or take it further. They may even believe that they have learned that that is perfectly accepted behavior. A typical crutch to fall back on is "don't be such a prude" or "no harm in asking". No doubt there are individuals looking for a significant other that shares their enthusiasm for nudism but it ridicules how some people don't understand that others may want to just enjoy being nude and have no interest in dating or being courted in such an environment. The posturing is what is fueling the discrimination against singles. Getting back on topic whats misogynist is how the excuses made for such conduct are smoke-screened while making comparisons to some paragon of what the empowered female nudist should be and act.
There is even a bent towards titillation in most nudist magazines again overflowing into online content with almost glamor shot posing of mostly females within a particular age range. In reality the pictures being published are a gross exaggeration of what the social nude environment actually manifests as. It is especially apparent in the ads and some would argue that the body painting competitions that are the new rage are extenuating excuses to take pictures and allow "artists" permission to touch women. Far removed from just painting on yourself or painting a friend for the fun of it. The profiteering of the novelty of nudity is not at all helping to sustain nudism or naturism, instead it is being asked to keep quiet, keep the kids out of view because of the gaggle of awkward individuals that were let in and of don't forget count the money. -Oh and the committee has decided.
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Please don't be offended by the comparison. Back in the 60s and 70s there were no Swinger clubs, so all of the activity took place in private homes. along came the clubs, many tried them and got turned off. So now there are networks of private groups who have parties in various private homes.
The same can be said for Naturist/nudist. In the 60s and 70s there were numerous beaches available for Naturism and a few resorts with mandatory nudity. The number of resorts and clubs grew and naturists/nudists tried them - with the results mentioned before. Now Naturism is returning to private homes. We have parties with a group of 2 or 3 families, and attend similar private parties in other homes. The ones with pools are the best! LOL Our feelings of safety are shared by the others including families with children. I don't think social nudism is dead, although I have read about a few resorts returning to textile, I just think it's happening away from the public eye.
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Policies and Enforcement
The specific situation described in the main article is a classic instance of how a powerful person took advantage of the difference in power to assault someone. The problem is that the victim did not have an recourse to label that behavior a crime or to punish the crime once if it could be labeled as such. The question that needs to be asked about the nudist organizations that are inviting women to join is what power structures do they have in place for those women to express their discomfort with other people's behavior in a safe and supportive environment. Have the women in leadership roles in those organizations made any progress on creating mechanisms of power appropraite for women?
The clubs should already have policies against such behavior, but policies are worthless if they do not effective mechanisms for enforcement. And even if the policies and mechanisms are in place there is the problem of getting the victims to know and act in defense of their rights. Given this idea that it takes a combination of policies, enforcement mechanisms, knowledge, and motivation to act, then where do the various organizations measure up, or not?
It seems to me the national organizations could take responsibility for creating a system for hearing such complaints, mediating and/or adjudicating resolutions, and enforcing sanctions against clubs that cannot maintain a safe and supportive environment.
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anti-harassment policy
I agree. That's why we prominently publish an anti-harassment policy and make sure that all visitors read it before they are allowed in.
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The philosophy has been lost
I think that the problem in many clubs is that naturism/nudism has become just a casual recreational option. The movement used to be about much more than just being nude. In fact, I frequently say that naturism is not about nudity. It is about accepting yourself, respecting others and living a more natural life. (as defined a long time ago by the International Naturist Federation) But nudity is the key tool that helps us achieve these goals.
Unfortunately, those values have been lost or deliberately set asside in many of the clubs. They've become places where you don't have to wear a bathing suit - a mere recreational activity.
At Bare Oaks Family Naturist Park, we're trying to bring back naturism as a life philosophy. Because the terms "naturism" and "nudism" have become so vague, I've introduced the idea of Ethical Naturism to make the point even more clearly.
Having strong naturist values is woman-friendly by default. Of course, not everyone who visits comes with those lofty ideals. That's why we make it clear with our anti-harrassment policy. It could be the reason why we have more women on staff than men. It's not by design. It just happened. Women visit and are so enamored and empowered by the atmosphere that they want to work here.
Of the two genders, women feel the most pressure from society to meet to unrealistic expectations of physical beauty. They are told that their bodies exist for the pleasure of others. But that's also why women are most appreciative of a place where they can free their bodies without being viewed as promiscuous and accepted for who they are.
It seems to be working. In the five years we've owned the club, membership has grown from about 130 members to over 520. All serviced campsites have been full for years and there is a 10 year waiting list. Each summer, we get thousands of visits by non-members. This summer, we had several hundred people visit for the first time - about a quarter of which were young people under 30. We have many families with young children. Women seem particularly comfortable. Dozens of them came this year to visit for the first time either on their own or with a girlfriend. In a few cases, we've even had women visit without their husband/partner because they could not convince them to come.
Certainly, Bare Oaks is not for everybody. But that's OK. I would rather have a place that people love and are passionate about than trying to appeal to a broader group of people who are ambivalent about naturism.
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Arrived from arizonavichi.tumblr.com. I appreciate the discussion. Feeling wired for nudism, a deviance from conventional behavior, other people's thoughts on the subject are a lot more attractive than the usual mixed bag of photographs.
I appreciated Stephane Deschane's posts, especially his notion of ethical naturism. Still, I don't think you can spell out how to behave (in any situation): A, B, C, D. There's always some new wrinkle. Maybe in trying, though, you can outline a pattern.
For instance, if you point out that touch can be a way of establishing hierarchy, you imply a skepticism toward hierarchy.
In this case, it's a male>female, in-group>newbie, or proprietor>customer hierarchy.
A lot of this stuff is unconscious. I used to dispatch interstate buses for a company -- not Greyhound -- most of whose drivers were white. Every time a white driver told me about an incident involving a black passenger, the passenger's color was part of it. I don't remember a time when that was a detail I needed to know, either as a supervisor or as a listener. It would have startled any of my drivers to say that they were racist. This seems to resonate with the "misogynist" discussion here.
In my lifetime, from mid-century, the amount of stuff like this that somebody needs to know has increased, often to the detriment of somebody's prerogatives, often to social discord. Even so, feminism has seemed, from my first encounters with the idea, forty-some years ago, to amount to simple fairness.
The pattern is what's important.
The pattern within social nudity has to be the same as the pattern elsewhere, although the appearance of social nudity in the last century or so has to have helped shape the pattern.
All this implies, for me, a need to refresh our ways of dealing with ethical and aesthetic things. The ethics and Aesthetics are there already, in, say, Christianity or democracy, but have been corrupted by misunderstanding, self interest, and novelty not anticipated by the ethical and aesthetic sources.
As an old hippie, I'm tempted to say, "Right the first time."
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text:
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Medical Center
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Humidity 17%
Winds 25.3mph
Humidity 17%
Winds 25.3mph
Humidity 27%
Winds 8.1mph
Feb 11, 2011 11:29 PM by Nicole Vandeputte
On Thursday night, we told you the story of a Pueblo woman. She's suffering a terminal disease. She wrote a poem about savoring life. A country singer turned that poem into a beautiful song.
On Friday, emotions were running high as they met face to face for the first time.
Lucas Hoge met Natalie Fognani at Sangre de Cristo Hospice in Pueblo. He hugged her, then sat down and sang their song, "How was I to know."
The words are hers, thanks to him they're no longer trapped inside her failing body. Natalie Fognani is dying from ALS, or Lou Gehrig's disease. She can no longer speak or use her hands. It hasn't slowed her mind. This song started as a poem that she wrote about living life to it's fullest. Hoge says, "It really was inspiring. I love the hook, how was I to know."
Hoge says, "I literally sat down with the lyrics and played the song one time through and it came out." Their song's become an overnight hit at KIQN Country 106.9 in Pueblo. It's Natalie's legacy, to inspire us to live. Hoge says, "I think this is going to open a lot of people's eyes. It already has."
Natalie spoke to us through her caregiver, Jessica Bond. "It was so beautiful. It was a dream come true. I can't believe god paired us up. It's awesome." They are a match made in heaven and, together they made beautiful music.
That song is available on I-tunes, search Lucas Hoge. On Saturday morning, you can also see him right here on NewsFirst 5 Today Weekend at 8 a.m. He'll be in studio to perform that song.
Click here to watch as Hoge performed the song for her for the first time.
7 hours ago


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You really shouldn't even need to pick them up to be honest. The DPS should be focusing them before they even become an issue.
I'm having some trouble getting/keeping the Vapors on me. I'm a Warrior tank. The issue seems to be with the large distance between Vapor spawns and the way they die/spawn so quickly that half the time I'm wasting cooldowns.
So what's the best way of handling really wide net group aggro (in general and in this specific case)? Vigilance will get me a free Taunt but letting the DPS take damage is no way to go. Right now I'm working mainly with upgraded Cleave, Thunder Clap, Demo Shout. Slipping Shockwave in when it's not on cooldown. I'm trying to waste as little rage/GCD on Ripsnarl as possible.
The group is just trying to burn the Vapors down with DPS as quickly as possible while (in theory) I keep Ripsnarl out of melee range of them and keep the Vapors main frost attack pointed directly at me. That's the best plan right now isn't it?
Last edited by Arkian; 12-12-2010 at 04:05 PM.
You really shouldn't even need to pick them up to be honest. The DPS should be focusing them before they even become an issue.
^ what they said.
If it becomes big then taunt it, otherwise the DPS should be burning them down before they grow the 2nd and 3rd times.
"If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson
Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon
I hit them once with either shieldslam, devastate or revenge and face them away from the group. While the Admiral is up: rend via BnT + cleave + revenge + shockwave is easily enough to clue them to me.
haven't so much problem to hold aggro on vapor liste night...
BUT have HUGE problem on KILL vapors last night, and i haven't still find how to do him.
Is a dps race? shall just one DPS kill the vapor meanwile the other 2 will burn him to reset frenzu stacks?
Coz the race dosen't matter...For anyting else use MasterCard!
It's a dps race, have one dps sitting on the boss while the other two and you kill the vapors. He can join you if there are too many.
have tried this, took a few tries (and hour and 30gold repair after)...
tank focus on boss when he's out (always)
dps focus fire on first vapor that comes out and next, then back to boss...
any spare DoT that can be placed on the boss while dps vapors, do it...
and good luck
well now after 6 weeks CATA, and most people having new and better gear = better dps output, the vapors are only getting to size 2 or not before they fizzle die out... it has become a race on which one of us can kill it faster...
Last edited by SeptimX; 01-16-2011 at 08:09 PM.


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Chudzinski's deep Browns roots matterPosted by on January 12, 2013 – 12:15 am
By Vic Carucci, Senior Editor
When it came to hiring the new head coach of the Cleveland Browns, team owner Jimmy Haslam said Rob Chudzinski could have been from Plano, Texas, for all he cared.
Browns chief executive officer Joe Banner said he would have hired the "man in the moon," if he possessed the necessary qualities for the job.
The point is Chudzinski's background as someone who was born in Toledo, Ohio, and grew up loving the Browns had no bearing on Haslam and Banner deciding to make him the 14th full-time coach in franchise history.
That's understandable.
The only question Haslam, who is from Tennessee, and Banner, who is from Massachusetts, needed answered when interviewing Chudzinski and other head-coaching candidates was: Does he have what it takes to make the Browns a winner?
Once they were satisfied he did and brought him aboard on Thursday night, they discovered there was a bonus in the fact that Chudzinski's ties to the Browns go well beyond the fact he once was an assistant coach here.
They realized, as Chudzinski shared during his introductory news conference on Friday, this was someone who, at age five, was photographed wearing a Browns helmet and jersey and "really, really ugly 1970s pants" … someone who pretended to be one of his childhood heroes wearing brown and orange when he played football with his friends … someone who shared a bond of Browns loyalty with his entire family, including the cousin who bought a school bus a few years back and converted it into a "Browns Mobile" … someone who openly admits to having consumed a dog biscuit "or two" in his life.
As Haslam put it, "It's a nice-to, not a have-to."
But it is something that Chudzinski has and something that clearly matters to everyone with an emotional attachment to this team.
Ultimately, the No. 1 concern of Browns fans is that their head coach is successful, regardless of his birthplace or rooting interests from childhood. If he isn't, none of the warm and fuzzy parts of his story will matter.
Yet, the fact Chudzinski views his opportunity as so much more than even reaching the very top of his profession provides a certain perspective that other such hires by the Browns or any other NFL team don't have. It offers a feel similar to that of Bernie Kosar, from Youngstown, Ohio, getting the chance to play for his beloved Brownies when they made him a supplemental draft pick in 1985.
Does being from Ohio or loving the Browns have a tangible impact on how well someone coaches or plays for the team? Did it have anything to do with the Browns' first head coach, Paul Brown, from Norwalk, Ohio, becoming one of the legends of the game? Did it have anything to do with Kosar becoming one of the greatest quarterbacks in franchise history?
Who knows?
But it certainly can't hurt to have that depth of understanding of what the Browns mean to so many people. It certainly can't hurt to be driven by not only the desire to survive in the incredibly insecure world of NFL coaching but to also have a major hand in the enormous task of turning the team around, once and for all.
It is so easy for a head coach to get so thoroughly consumed with the multitude of time-consuming aspects of the job that he pays little or no attention to how the team he is leading is seen from the outside.
That won't ever happen to Chudzinski. He understands. He gets it.
And there could come a time, while studying videotape of the Pittsburgh Steelers or the Baltimore Ravens in the quiet of his office, that he just might find himself reaching for something other than peanuts or potato chips for a little late-night snack.
He just might go for another one of those dog biscuits … and be reminded of what serving as head coach of the Browns is truly all about.
>>Be sure to tune in Monday through Friday, 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. ET, for "Cleveland Browns Daily, Driven by Liberty Ford" on ESPN 850 WKNR or catch the live stream right here on ClevelandBrowns.com.
>>Have a question for "Cleveland Browns Daily, Driven by Liberty Ford"? Ask me at Twitter.com/browns_daily, Twitter.com/viccarucci, e-mail: email@example.com, or by calling 855-363-2459.
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2014-15 Fulbright Master's Scholarship for Austrian Citizens in USA
over study and living cost up to $ 25,000 for one-year programs or up to $ 12,500 per year for two-year programs and also provided travel grants of Euro 800. The applications are to be submitted online by 1st May 2013 for the 2014-2015 academic year. Applicants who do not live in Austria but have Austrian citizenship can also apply.. Austrians / inside, seeking a master's degree in the United States are invited to apply for a Fulbright Scho…
WOP-P Master's Erasmus Mundus Scholarships in Psychology 2013-2014
European Commission funded Master Erasmus Mundus Scholarships in Psychology for European and Non- European Students at University of Valencia orUniversity of Barcelona in Spain, Paris Descartes University in France, Alma Mater Studiorum-University of Bologna in Italy, University of Coimbra in Portugal, University of Brasilia in Brazil and University of Guelph in Canada 2013-2014. Students should be aware of the fact that they can apply for an E…