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There has been a lot of discussion lately following some tweets that Alec Saunders, RIM's VP of Developer Relations, posted regarding removal of the ability to side-load apps on the BlackBerry PlayBook. While some people were indifferent or thought it was a good idea to do away with the method, the majority of users that weighed in were not happy about the removal and in fact many were outraged. As we mentioned earlier on this afternoon's poll about side-loading and if it's removal would affect you, Alec has issued a statement regarding his tweets and the future of side-loading.
There's been a lot of coverage this morning about tweets I posted regarding the side-loading of apps onto the BlackBerry® PlayBook™ tablet. Unfortunately, 140 characters doesn't allow for nuance. I'd like to take this opportunity to set the record straight for our developer community.
We're not getting rid of side-loading on the BlackBerry PlayBook OS or in BlackBerry 10.
Side-loading on our platform is changing in nature. Side-loading is a developer feature. It exists so that developers can load their apps onto their own devices to test. It's there so developers can send a beta release to their testing community for review. It is definitely not there for some people to side load a pirated app.
What are we doing?
Starting with our next release of the BlackBerry PlayBook OS, we're introducing a feature that will encrypt apps so they can only be run by the user who purchased the app.
What's next?
We're working with you, our developer community, to ensure you can still quickly and easily test your apps on real hardware. That's one of the reasons we're kicking off BlackBerry 10 Jam by giving each developer attendee a prototype device to start building on. I'll be on-hand at the show to answer your questions – look forward to seeing you there.
Let's Jam.
So there you have it folks, the official word from Alec, not constrained to 140 characters and a couple of tweets. Side-loading is not being taken away, but new features are being introduced with the next PlayBook OS update to help eliminate piracy. Sounds good to me!
Source: BlackBerry DevBlog
I'll poke the bear.
The meaning of this is highly debatable in the fact that no, side-loading is not being removed for developers. However, those consumers who were upset about it may still have side-loading for them blocked as this appears to be a developer resolution, not one for consumers who took part in side-loading. Hence, it being posted on the developer blogs and not Inside BlackBerry.
Do I dare even mention the fact that they never said what sort of apps this was referring to? ie: Side-loading of PlayBook apps or Side-Loading of Android apps?
What about consumers side loading free apps?
Not terribly concerned that they are preventing pirated apps but they really should have some good news with that for the consumers like negotiating for some major apps before they announced that.
My playbook is sort of sitting with the dusts now because honestly, I don't know what to do with it. There's nothing there that my phone can't do. I feel a bit awkward and redundant to use an extra tablet to do the exact things my phone is doing. Even with touchscreen and the smaller size, I do feel like it is neither as convenient as pulling out the phone and working with one hand or as efficient as just doing things on my laptop. The Playbook literally offers me no functions.
Moreover, if they didn't intent consumers to use sideloading (which is perfectly correct), then why include it in the first place?
+1000 Couldn't have said it better myself. The few apps I have that are actually useful (when they don't crash)are some free android apps that I found and side loaded. Since bridge performance is pretty poor and many apps won't work over the bridge anyway I can usually do things quicker or better with a phone or laptop. Maybe someone will port an android OS to run on my playbook and then I can actually use it.
Same here! I occasionally use it for web browsing and a few android games if they dont crash, but thats about it.
Not really sure what else to do with it.
I see im not alone!
I tend to agree with much of what you say JackKennedy, a phone is a much more useful device, everything I want to do on a mobile device I can do on my BlackBerry 9790 faster than I can do it on my PlayBook or my iPad. Tablets are generally not all that useful, but they are fun.
I have found great use for them but it is for my hobby. I like to play music and all my song sheets are on my PlayBook. If I write a song, I pick up my PlayBook. If I record a song, I pick up my iPad and use GarageBand. At our music club, there are several people with iPads and PlayBooks using them the same way I do. I prefer the PlayBook to the iPad for this task because it is easer to move files onto it and it plugs into the big-screen TV without an adapter. It also has a much more modern and useful UX if only they would allow apps to be listed and sorted instead of the gloomy icon grid.
We have two Playbooks and use them every day.
I read ebooks, watch TV and video, and browse the web from wherever. Listen to internet radio and download podcasts (for which I use the Android app available on AppWorld).
I don't find Bridge slow, but I generally have pretty good connectivity.
Don't play a lot of games, but the ones I have are pretty good.
Could I use more apps? Sure. But so far so good.
Sideloading was always only intended for developers.
So, when will the consumer concerns be officially addressed? It seems like RIM is still slipping further behind in providing access to popular apps in APP World (not games) as well as native apps on the PB. I have side loaded Kindle because KOBO is so bad and eBay because it is no where to be found in App World. Still cant figure out why my bold can view WMV attachments and they are not supported on PB. The list goes on but it seems like no one is concerned about the shortcomings, just the few good things about the PB. There has to be a balance between the consumers and developers, both directed by RIM, in a yet to see timely manner, if this thing is ever going to make us happy.
There is a side benefit to encrypting apps. If a developer offers an upgrade, long time users can upgrade at a lower price point than re-buying the updated app. This is something missing in the Apple App Store. That is, if RiM can get this feature implemented and working, it would be something unique that would allow developers to more easily continue development and monetize upgrades.
Its not only that they have to get developers make good apps, but they also have to get these apps in the playbooks of the users. whats the use if apps are developed but not used or downloaded??
In my country we have no access to appworld, but we are using blackberrys and me and my friends group all bought playbooks, now its useless weight if there are no apps, its because of the side-loading that we can get to use free appworld apps and make some use of this tablet, if this is blocked, our playbooks will be useless. and its not small numbers im talking about!
If RIM fails to satisfy this segment of the market, not only will they loose tablet market share, but also smartphones as its too long a wait now and still doubts about bb10 coming on time!!!
Certainly, RIM will not go down JUST because of this...RIM has done its fair share in sabotaging itself in the past year.
We are not asking much. We are just asking for a tablet that actually has some sort of use to it. Without any useful apps, my Playbook does exactly the same thing as my BB, and users of any other platform WILL find it extremely lacking. RIM can't even give people who like to throw away money an excuse to buy Playbook.
Of course, many of us understand the implication and the legal issues involved, but RIM hasn't really shown us that it has done much to improve the app environment in Playbook. Blaming everything on developers is just b_ because there are so many things that RIM CAN DO and its competitors has done. Windows subsidize developers and RIM could do the same thing or at least give some sort of monetary incentives to certain major apps. Apple buys developers and RIM is sitting on a huge pile of cash, dying, and not using those money to get us some apps.
In the end of the day, you can't blame developers or users, RIM really sabotaged itself. You have a new os; you need to invest money in it--plain and simple. Giving Playbooks to developers is nowhere near a fraction of the effectiveness monetary subsidy or buying of developers. If I were a developer, I could take your Playbook and not do anything with it and it doesn't really matter.
This is the best answer for what matters.
Sure, some of us may not be happy that an App is not yet available, and we'll have to pressure developers. But the alternative does not really help the BB total cause, it only helps pirates or whatever PC name that you want to use.
(not a developer, and yes I have side loaded)
he should just stop tweeting haha
He's tweeting from the native twitter app on his PB. Oh wait, my bad.... Maybe we'll have that by BB10
One would think that but what is the likelihood they will get it just right to curb pirating yet not alienate consumers with a rightful desire to sideload. They were all the way to one end of the scale with everything wide open and will likely flip flop to the other extreme, bypassing the middle ground in a single update and lock down the Playbook so tight you won't even be able to squeeze anything in that doesn't come through app world or that you build for yourself.
What you are seeing here is RIM backpedaling on the possibility of alienating people wanting to write to the Playbook/BB10 platform. On Twitter, when someone replied to Saunders that if this was the deal he was out of building apps for RIM, he almost fell over himself to set up a call to talk about the developer's concerns. I doubt he offered that to consumers that complained. That paints a picture. Yes RIM needs people building apps but you cannot focus exclusively on that aspect and right now they are and will, to the detriment of their consumers.
As for the argument I read across a few articles saying that locking down the Playbook is a good thing because consumers can now rightfully go to the people creating the apps to have them port them instead of "hacking" them from Android, I call BS. Many developers, including very large ones with the backend teams to support multiple platforms will not touch RIM because their devices and audience are not consumer centric enough. Market is too small, not even worth the break even cost or small profit they could make. If RIM themselves cannot and have not yet convinced those teams/companies to port apps, how likely is it consumers will? Think apps we wanted since day one the Playbook shipped like Kindle, Skype, etc. Smaller development teams or individuals who have smaller revenue streams are more likely to port because there is the possibility of an extra revenue stream that they need to exploit. And that is why we tend to see more apps get ported that aren't the ones people are looking for. For large companies, the Playbook is an afterthought, if that. Did Rovio lauch Angry Birds Space for the Playbook from day one? Humm could it be their investment in porting their existing products fell flat?
The more I see the way Playbook development is going, the more I am disenchanted with RIM in general. Some examples: They cut out rooting instead of embracing the concept when they went to 2.0 (so much for that cool way to plug a USB stick in the Playbook and increase memory), they have kept dangling TAT demos in our faces without putting anything in our hands (short of a couple of apps) and in the near future they will likely cripple sideloading to the point it won't be usable for everyday justifiable situations (not arguing curbing pirating here).
For me the tablet is a tool for work, an entertainment center when I am travelling, a shortcut instead of pulling out my laptop for many simple tasks and a step up from a small phone screen. I definitely do not run a vanilla setup with only things found in App World. There are so many gaping holes in the current product offerings that without sideloading, this tablet does not fit the bill for me. If it did not have an awesome browser it would not make the cut.
All this might not make me sell it outright but it will make me look long and hard at continuing to invest in this product. It may just become the tablet that goes to the kids (without a linked credit card) while I go with a more mature and business/consumer minded platform and spend my money there.
Now stepping off my soap box...
"On Twitter, when someone replied to Saunders that if this was the deal he was out of building apps for RIM, he almost fell over himself to set up a call to talk about the developer's concerns. I doubt he offered that to consumers that complained."
His job is to talk to devs, not consumers. That's what he gets paid to do, that's what he does.
I should have probably said "I doubt anyone at RIM offered to talk directly to consumers who had concerns". Who is the counterpart to making sure the consumer voice is heard equally when the time comes to handling changes like this?
Let's be realistic, by the time we heard about this on Twitter, it's a done deal, already cooked up and going through validation. If this guy is willing to listen to developer's complaints about it and maybe help alleviate concerns, who is not doing the same for the consumer side of things? Cat is out of the bag and all we hear is one sided - exactly how RIM is pointing these days - directly towards developers but not the consumers of their product.
Myself, I firmly believe that you can't live exclusively in one camp or the other and put blinders on. Ultimately this is about one product that they want people to write apps for and people to buy. You cannot make a decision for the benefit of one group and alienate the other. For the same reason it is unrealistic to say because he is paid to talk to devs he cannot address the other side of the issue, even if it is not his job. People seem unsatisfied with his answers from a consumer perspective so I'd hope he either steps up about it or gets the proper person to do so.
You are so right about this! I agree 100% cause without the users, there is no viable platform and we wouldnt be having this discussion! And it seems devs just want to shove it down our throat and on top of all dictate their high price! I understand their concerns but both sides needs to be addressed and taken into consideration in every future decision! RIM has been blamed to never listen to their users and this is one of the time where they should!
You sound a lot like those who were trying to defend music piracy with the original Napster.
Even if an app is free, THE DEVELOPER IS NOT AUTHORIZING IT FOR USE ON THE PLAYBOOK. That is entirely within the developer's right.
What happened with the Dolphin browser is particularly interesting: when the Android player first became available in the OS2 developer preview, many users converted Dolphin and used it. Then, wonder of wonders, it appeared in App World as a result of the Handster deal. Only trouble was, Dolphin didn't actually WANT to be on the Playbook at that time, and they got their converted Android version pulled.
That story had a happy ending, because shortly afterward Dolphin produced an optimized BAR and released it themselves through App World. But the point is, even if an app WORKS as a converted APK, that doesn't mean the developer wants it on the Playbook. Converting someone else's APK to a BAR violates copyright.
My thoughts exactly. If you want an app, appeal to the developer - maybe they will make a native app instead of a converted Android app even.
what does he shirt say in full? "keep calling"?
Keep calm and be bold.
Good decision.. This will only encourage developers to peacefully develop applications for the BB10. Else piracy will kill their effort. Infact in this case, developers can make more profit out of it by removing a third party like BB World. Amazon, google , Netflix , Skype have no other option but to make an application for Playbook. They might be waiting for the cascades release or may be under development as a partner. There are now 1 million playbook sold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_PlayBook#Reception_and_sales) by early march 2012 and it has been better sales after PB OS2.0 release... Which tablet can challenge to be better than playbook at $200 range ??
ahem...a million units....that's like every other mainstream tablet could challenge that figure..
What you all seem to be missing is that developers will feel better about putting their apps in AppWorld with this encryption technique. This is MUCH more enticing to developers/sellers BY FAR! By now, everyone knows there's a nice set of 1.5 million PlayBook users thirsty for apps. They look much better with encryption set in than without, believe me. Saunders has already stated that developers won't touch the PlayBook (and therefore BB10) unless they close this up. Doing so puts PlayBook back in the game. Not doing so will kill it for sure
Judging by the complaints on here and elsewhere, most of the developers that people want to see supporting the playbook are responsible for free apps that relate to an external services rather than being paid apps anyway, so the piracy stuff is a red herring and this change will not alter that fact.
It's not impossible that some devs have made this a condition for releasing on the Playbook, actually.
This is mistake on RIM side. We already lacking apps and here RIM is blocking..good for devs and from legal perspective but consumers that drives the products and devs will be loosers. How about free apps ? I do not think there are many paid apps available anyway.
If Apple can get away with ability to jailbreak, why RIM is buring his customers..
That's because Apple's security sucks compared to RIM's. Also, Apple hates that people jailbreak and attempts to stop it at every update. I jailbroke my iPhone once and I didn't like it at all.
Since when is <50% the majority?
The poll on the front page showed 36% and obviously thats gonna be higher on a site like this. Average consumer has no clue what sideloading is. I'm glad they are doing what they need to block piracy and make the PB secure as possible. Anyways, I'm sure the diehards that really want it come become 'developers' or find some other workaround. I hope RIM makes the moves necessary to encourage native app development, which it looks like they are.
In all truth and honesty, what he said is still not clear! He just said that side loading will still be in our option but did not give us enough details to know how it will change in terms of behaviour! (will i still be able to sideload apps that are not available in app world that are essential to me? If im a developper and want to send the app to beta testers, can they load it the same way they used to? Does it encrypt only apps available in app world?) Not clear Alec... Not clear! Its obvious that you are now part of RIM! Lol (No offense but RIM has never been clear in their statements either!)
And what happens with the applications that RIM does not approve like ScummVM?, It's a perfectly legal application and it's waiting approval for months.
Also, what happens to developers that create specific applications for clients and do not want to appear publicly in the App world? (that's my case).
RIM should implement anti piracy measures, but sideloading has it's place and the developer is the one that should be able to choose how to distribute his application.
I wonder how this will affect all those existing "bootleg" .BAR files circulating out on the file sharing sites. It sounds like they plan to add a level of encryption to the .BAR format, however, what about existing packages that were compiled before the new system?
If this fix doesn't retroactively patch the hole that the "warez kiddies" have been exploiting then it will be cold consolation for developers who have already lost - and will continue to lose - revenue due to the .BAR format's open nature.
They need to lock it down in a way that penalizes those unscrupulous users who exploited the loophole in the first place.
Playbook won't survive without a solid ecosystem (i.e AppWorld). It's nonsense to write sideloading will "save" PB from anything. If PlayBook / BB10 devices can't survive with their own Apps distibution channel(S ?), they will die: sooner than later.
Remember we're talking about a few Ks of enthusiasts and tech fans that sideload apps (both native and Android BARed ones) mister Joe doesn't even know what the Desktop Software Manager is.
Keep functions/capabilities for what they are intended to do. Nice move.
I can see why RIM are doing this, but at the same time worry about the future of apps on the PB, how costly is it for developers to gain access the tools and licences they need to create for the PB? Maybe some developers use the side loading system to save themselves some money?
However this loop hole has created an easy way for pirate apps to be loaded onto a PB and that does need to change IMHO.
Why is everyone blaming RIM for not having Skype, Netflix and Kindle? Skype is owned by MS - why would they support a competing platform? Netflix streaming runs on Silverlight, another MS product. See above. Lastly, Kindle is an Amazon product and they are trying to sell you a Kindle Fire or another flavor - why would they support the Playbook from which they stole the Fire's design? I'm not an apologist for RIM, but in these cases it really isn't their fault.
Because PB OS is their OS, it is RIM's responsibility to get the apps to consumers not the other way around.
Go beg them, give them money or whatever but rather then doing this they shoot themselves on the foot and sabotaging themselves by restricting what consumer can do with their puny apps.
Skype runs on dozens of non-MS platforms. They want to sell you calling minutes and advertising, not Windows PC's.
Netflix runs on dozens of non-MS platforms. They want to sell you their video streaming service, not Windows PC's.
Kindle runs on many, if not dozens, of non-Amazon platforms (including BlackBerry smartphones at one time, if not currently). They want to sell you ebooks and other media, not a Kindle Fire. In fact, I've heard they take a loss on the Fire, because they want to sell their media so badly. Wouldn't they rather have RIM take the hardware loss?
Doesn't it seem like RIM is doing something wrong?
We are not blaming RIM; we are blaming the Playbook.
The situation is this:
1.) a lot of us bought Playbook early on, and it was not what a lot of us expected lacking in so many aspects that it virtually a prototype. Normal consumers would feel cheated, hardcore BB fans would not be too happy once the excitement dropped.
2.) the price dropped like crazy, and more than anyone anticipate
3.) numerous tablets are launched as we waited for os 2
4.) os 2 is finally launched and we are all excited thinking we could finally put the Playbook into normal use now that it has the basic functions. Once the excitement has passed, we discovered it does only the basics and that's it. All other competing tablets does more than this before the original Playbook original os is launched.
Consumers do not care whether you have the functions covered through apps or native os, but we need the functions. Playbook originally marketed itself as a multimedia tablet, but now that a year has passed, what do we get? We have no content, nothing to 'multimedia' it with. Can we use it as an office equipment? Word processing on any tablet is inconvenient and formattings are always messed up. Can we use it as a communication tool? There's nothing useful on the PB that I can't do with my BB, and it has no useful IM with user base.
This is what the Playbook is. It may have the specs to do what RIM claims it is intended for but it has absolutely no content and nothing to implement the functions.
RIM can say it's not their fault, but does anyone care? It's certainly not a responsible claim either.
Soon we are going to start selling television sets with compatible no video-in and reception functions, speakers with compatible no audio-in, and cars that runs on non-existing fuel.
This is neither a "feature" nor "good news".
The way I read it, if you don't have the source code, there will be no side loading.
Since they're talking about encryption, there must be another step involved beyond signing a free .apk or .bar file. So even having the development tools, etc. probably won't do you any good without the source.
Say goodbye to all free Android apps not in AppWorld - Kindle, Pandora, Google Maps, Dropbox, etc., etc., etc.
I guess RIM decided the lack of Skype, Netflix, Draw Something, Instagram, etc. wasn't a big enough faiure. They might as well take away what little an industrious consumer can add on their own to try to make this device useful.
I'm disgusted.
What I do not understand is that a ton of Android apps work just fine when ported to the PB.
Then why on earth aren't the developers of those apps converting the apps themselves.
They could send the bar files to appworld and even add the PB as a supported device on their website. By doing this more people actually see and hear about PB support.
And this is a good cause because by actually naming the PB on popular websites with free apps... e.g. skype, IMDB, Drawsomething.... a lot of untapped consumers will see and read about it... and maybe even jump onboard of the PB ship because by then it has a good price for Tablet vs. app value. There are still a lot of people out there without a tablet and a PB is a good point to start....if only it had more App support from developers.
Once that is established, a growth of the PB user-base, developers might actually make native apps for the PB that run smoother and have more options. But the biggest problem is that the biggest app developers that have the capability to boost the PB sales are in fact doing nothing and are just waiting for the PB sales to rise.
At some point one party has to invest to break out of this circle of death. Either RIM pays money for apps to be made or pulls in developers other wise. Or 1 or 2 developers has to grow a pair of balls and just decide to go for that bit of extra revenue stream. in the last case they better not go half way. Nobody wants to pay for apps that lack half the feature-sets that counterparts have, just so they could cut back on developing costs.
And than there is the lack of easy 2 access knowledge. RIM should publish a road-map for developers that shows how they can get from their native source code to PB OS native code.
They should not only talk about what they support and how easy it is but how developers can actually get there without rewriting everything. Of course this is easy to find out for professional coders but for the starters and doubters it would come in very handy just to see what road they should take for 'easy' access to all three mayor platforms and get the most bang out of your product.
Actually, since version 2.0, my Playbook now does LESS than it used to! I used to love it, now I don't!
Since I have the audacity to use Microsoft Outlook for my e-mail, contacts, calendar, etc. my playbook is no longer able to give me my contacts and even more importantly, my appointment calendar! Since I can use Blackberry desktop to coordinate all that with my phone still, my phone does all I need. The playbook has become redundant, and is rarely used as I no longer get my updated calendar events or contacts. Since 2.0 some movies that I put on my Playbook no longer play as well. So, I am using my old Storm 2. And, RIM, I will NOT be updating any phone until I see BB10. Then, it will be up to BB to see if I stay or go. Really, so many steps back for RIM....so little time left to do anything about it. BB10 must be strong, beautiful, secure, and feature-rich. I've been a BB user for many many years. But, I, like others, can only take this reduction of services for so long. BTW, get over the sideloading issue, which is side-tracking everyone, and get on with your life RIM. Hopefully, you will take me along for the ride. But, I'm no cheap ride...you have to offer a heck of a lot more than you are offering now, or even offered before 2.0.
So if this will help with the piracy of apps on the platform.....
Does this mean we will stop being price gouged for apps and games finally? hint hint rovio? $4.99 when i am sure its .99 on ios ;)
By purchasing their apps at this inflated price we are just showing them we are inelastic to this BS and that we will suck it no matter what they spit at us.
Lets show some elasticity and curb this price gouging nonsense!!!
RIM has stated that they have developers that will not release apps for the Playbook until side loading is prevented, or at least the piracy opened by it, is finished. I think they should have never built an Android player for the Playbook. I think that it made developers wait for the player as RIM implied it would play any Android app and so they didn't want to put the effort into native apps. Now that the player is out, over a half year after promised, and not that great and limited, we still don't have developers bringing in apps and instead have a group of people taking "free" android apps and porting them themselves, without the developers approval, for use on the Playbook via side loading. So we have RIM trying to get developers in, and some Playbook users stealing potential developer's intellectual property. Whether the app is free or not on Android, unless the app developer/owner has given you permission to port the app to a BAR then you have stolen that person/company's intellectual property from them. No gray area there at all! I have no problem with RIM making developers happy at the expense of people who have stolen intellectual property.
right! the whole premise of the Android app player in 2.0 was to be able to go into App World and download ALL these Android apps developers ported over.........but that hasnt happened!
what do they expect!? RIM completely dropped the ball.
Over a year later and there is STILL NO Twitter for Playbook.
smh, at RIM
why are they acting like developers have been in a rush to make Playbook apps anyway.
If they haven't been doing it , they're certainly not gonna do it now.
the only real solution is to make the apps available in App World! That's it.
If you're gonna remove sideloading from consumers make the apps available so we dont have to! Its that simple!
im already over my Playbook. So glad I only paid $199 for it.
Sorry to burst your bubble Alec but taking away side-loading is not exactly the right move! Way to go alienating your already feeble Playbook user base. And before anyone starts shooting their mouth off, I'm not one for using pirated apps. I am actually all for supporting devs but one example I can give is not having the IMDB app available on appworld! I had to sideload this converted app and it's bloody free!
While I agree in principle that this change may attract more paid app developers to release their products in App World, if they are going to do this, RIM needs to establish some good will by getting some of the mainstream free apps that we've all been sideloading, but which the developers for one reason or another has not or could not release in App World.
I highly doubt that the threat of piracy is keeping Twitter from releasing its official app in App World, yet it's not there.
I honestly expected most of these apps to be part of the 2.0 launch (Twitter, Kindle, etc), yet here we are almost 2 months later, and still don't have these very mainstream apps. RIM may mock the Android market, but as a customer, I'd 100% prefer having their set of apps over whatever RIM has been able to get in App World to date.
If developers were staying away from Blackberry because of concerns over side-loading piracy, where were all the apps when you couldn't side-load?
If anything, the number of apps being made available has accelerated after side-loading was introduced. Undoubtedly, there is an incentive created for developers to release an app now, because if they don't consumers will still get the app, but they will be cut out. If they want to cash in they've got to have an app available on app world. Remove this incentive and we just return to the blissful pre-OS 2.0 days when developers just ignored Blackberry users (instead of getting irate and maybe doing something about it like releasing an app).
But really the whole chicken and egg question about whether Blackberry needs to court developers to get users, or users to get developers is secondary to the simple question they should be asking:
Is this device garbage?
Because that's the question everyone that buys the device or thinks about buying the device will ask themselves.
HINT: if it doesn't have all the apps I need available (through app world or side-loading) -- the device is garbage. Right now, I hate to admit it, but without the side-loaded apps I have on my playbook (otherwise unavailable), it would be garbage. When BB10 comes out, BB better make sure they ask that question.
I love Blackberry, but for my next phone and tablet, I'm definitely not going to buy garbage.
The real answer is simple. Make the device and the software compelling enough that developers create native apps for PlayBook. We're all arguing about how we get around the limitations of the PlayBook. I love mine for lots of reasons - size, integration with my phone, syncing with my work computer - but that doesn't mean it's perfect.
Get the product right and all these threads and complaints and fears go away.
So, why does everybody at RIM look like they could be Kevin's relative?
As a developer, I think having a way to encrypt files to reduce piracy is a good thing. It should help to encourage a few developers into the market. From a development standpoint, I think it would only sway those that were on the fence about developing Playbook apps. If the software company had already decided not to develop a Playbook app, for whatever reason, I doubt encryption will be enough to sway them to change their mind.
It's easy to get upset about there not being a native Kindle app when it was reported there would be one even before the Playbook was released. Will this change Amazon's mind? That is left to be seen. Other than the Skype mass-email campaign, there hasn't been any word about a Skype app... or a Netflix app (after Netflix said they weren't making one).
Maybe some of these apps that people are calling for aren't for the business market, and might have a lower priority at RIM. I do think that RIM needs to work on developer relationships and see about getting more mainstream apps available. RIM might not be making the applications, but they can be something to bring interest back to the Playbook (besides a fire sale).
Being loyal to RIM has been somewhat of a challenge as long as AppWorld remains close of to parts of the world which I live in. Being an BIS/BES user for two years now and not seeing the lights of AppWorld other then its shiny icon which of obvious reasons remains hidden. Caused me to voice my opinion on the matter abit to late but here it is.
The apps I am using are only side-loaded and they can be counted on one hand. Even Crackberries app I cant load.
If RIM reinforces its policies regarding side-loading they should take into account the fact that there are loyalists out there still in the dark without AppWorld.
Debating side-loading as an luxury or as an dev must have, I understand.
If you read this Alec Saunders please, please open AppWorld.
elxsi, Faroe Islands
I have never side-loaded an app and its not because I'm against it principally per se, its due to a lack of computer skills needed to perform such a feat and the other primary reason being that I really want to support RIM as much as I can. If they need my 4.99 for the latest Angry Birds game then they will most certainly get it.
Now, in regards to the FREE apps that just aren't available in App World here's my solution RIM: SPEND SOME F***ING MONEY!!!!! Microsoft (your real, direct competitor for 3rd place in the smartphone wars) is offering $60k to $600k to developers so they can get as many of the Top 25 Apps in their ecosystem as soon as possible! With 1.5 BILLION DOLLARS in actual, hard cash to throw around it might make some sense to attract the Top 25 App Developers with some actual, hard cash! RIM, if you guys paid the MAX of $600k PER APP for the Top 25 Apps on iTunes (or whatever iCrap's marketplace is called) it would only amount to 15 million dollars and EVERYONE WOULD SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR LACK OF APPS AND WOULD BUY YOUR PLAYBOOKS!!!!!! This is a no-brainer guys!!! Make it happen!!!
Long Live The RIMpire!!!
P.S.-- if anyone on Team Crackberry OR RIM is looking for a writer or salesman I have 16 years sales experience and a B.A. in English and I LOVE both this site (Crackberry) and Your products (RIM) and I hate living in New Jersey so I'm more then flexible when it comes down to relocation (always wanted to move to The Great White North!)
I find it interesting that just months ago people were talking about how RIM needed to court developers and get more developers interested in BB/PB. Now that they are working on this and trying to go hard at obtaining developers, people STILL complain!!! Yes, RIM could pay developers for some of the top 25 apps out right now, but then what after that. The top apps always change and there is always a new best app. Many of these developers develop for iOS and Android because of the sheer number of consumers. Unfortunately, RIM does not have that luxury and have to show developers the BENEFITS of developing for BB/PB. I like the idea that RIM will be giving developers free tools to try out the BB10 platform...and allow them to try it out and develop different apps before the final product is released. I think this is a great way for developers to work out any bugs and kinks in their apps before being released to the public.
@ berryberrygood1981: (nice name btw...I had to read it twice b4 I got it...yes, I am that slow :-)
I completely agree with you that the bulk of the Top 25 would be a constantly changing list due to the next big Killer App coming out once a week. What I was referring to (and probably should have gone into more detail about) was/are the essential apps that aren't going anywhere that we, the consumer, need to get by on a day by day basis. I'm referring to apps like Skype and Kindle and Hulu and Netflix and whatever else people are bitching about not having on their PBs these days (I've got all the apps/games I can handle at this point...I think I've dropped well over $200 on apps for my PB and 9930 since I got them in November). THOSE are the ones that, if they don't want to develop for PB due to a lack of profit, RIM should be throwing money at!
Long Live The RIMpire!!!!
lmao @ these comments.. poor guy got called a douchebag murderer of rim its a shame for pb users when the next update comes its forced on you just like the last it justs installs.. except for my pb i see no reason to ever turn it on again
I have been a faithful follower of RIM since they first introduced the BB devices years ago. I bought the Playbooks on the day it came out. Today I gave it up. I still love my BB Bold 9930 and cant wait for BB10 phones. The tablet has been a colossal waste of money. I went to the dark side, paid $499 for the new iPad and loving it. I was told at Best Buy that they would offer me $30 for my Playbook. A return on investment of negative 94%.
And to think I almost bought 2 of these things. The wife, also a bb user, wanted a tablet too when I told her I was thinking about getting one. I weighed the pros and cons of having both the same and decided she would get much more use from an Android powered device. I got her the Samsung tab 10. Bottom line, she loves hers, is tired of hearing me bitch about mine. The apps I really really use are android sideloaded anyway. What the F. Am I doing? If they take away dropbox, pandora, the only working Evernote the pb has ever seen (android) tweetdeck... The list goes on, then I should just cut my losses now. The form factor is great. Can I still get a tab 7? Shame on you RIM. I think you are beyond repairing this no matter what you do.
if they kill the converted apps i've already sideloaded, my playbook is no longer my traveling companion. probably move to android. i really got snookered when i bought the bs they were going to make the playbook android compatible. should have read the fine print. RIM is a case study in hubris ... you can't go from #1 to death throes in three years without some serious effort. still like my phone and playbook combo, but if they go retrogressive on sideloading by consumers i'm probably done with both.
Alec Saunders if you guys still care about the consumer market, talk to your buddies up there...this is a clear case of risk management... you guys are risking waaaaaay too much with this move... put the update on hold, get your market analysts and forecasters to double-check their numbers... this move will upset a large crowed in a catastrophic way... believe me.


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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes
Matthew Miller
Best Argument: Thumbs-up
Audience Favored: Thumbs-up (80%)
The moderator has delivered a final verdict.
Opening Statements
QWERTY for the foreseeable future
Adrian Kingsley-Hughes: Following its introduction in 1873, QWERTY became the most popular keyboard layout. While it was designed to prevent typewriter typebars from jamming, its longevity beyond the mechanical typewriter was guaranteed when it was adopted as the layout for computer keyboards.
Although there are undoubtedly better systems that QWERTY available, ranging from different layouts to swipe systems to voice control, the advantage that QWERTY has over the competition is that it is ubiquitous, and almost anyone with even a passing familiarity with a computer can pick up the smartphone or tablet and start using it.
While QWERTY might be considered by some to be old, slow and inefficient, no other system can boast this level of usability, and this is why it migrated beyond the keyboard and into cutting-edge post-PC devices such as smartphones and tablets. And this guarantees that we will be seeing – and interacting with – QWERTY for the foreseeable future.
More efficient methods for text entry available
Matthew Miller: My smartphone life began with the Danger Hiptop (aka T-Mobile Sidekick) back in 2002 and I was hooked on hardware QWERTY keyboards ever since. I progressed through Palm Treos and Pres, BlackBerrys, various HTC devices, and more in my desire to always find and use devices with physical keyboards. I have now given up that lengthy affair and find no reason to go back.
The only high end smartphone today with a QWERTY is the new BlackBerry Q10, admittedly one of the best QWERTY devices ever made. However, you give up viewable display area and the ability to use advanced software keyboards while adding another hardware failure point.
QWERTY was designed for two-handed PC keyboards and is not a system optimized for the mobile phone. There are more efficient methods for text entry available today, such as Swype on Android, and the predictive keyboards today mean many people don't even tap on all the letters in words they enter on their phones.
Efficient QWERTY usage also requires two hands while software keyboards work well with one thumb or finger tapping or sliding away on the display. Folks, put your thumbs down and slide that index finger across your screen.

subset: commoncrawl


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The website Ikea Hackers usually shows of examples how people use their Chinese-made Swedish furnishings to organize their closets, stack their kitchen gadgets or create cozy bedrooms for their kids.
This week we found a great example of a design-minded homeowner who did an Ikea furniture mashup to create a very well-done media room complete with a Pioneer Kuro plasma (OK, I guess that's dating this room a bit), Definitive Technology Mythos speakers and a Plex-based media server. All of the above shows he wanted to save on his furnishings so he could splurge on the important stuff.
The Ikea furniture performed two functions. First, it fit nicely into the mid-century modern décor of the California home (designed in 1952 by Paul Tay), and it was able to conceal all the wires and components.
The DIY homeowner says the furnishings cost approximately $1,100. He spend about two weeks designing and constructing the media room.
Notice also the sweet turntable in front of the TV.
Check out the slideshow for more pictures.
via Ikea Hacker
Additional images from Flickr


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Add a dramatic touch to the desk, bookshelf or library of any legal professional with these 6" solid marble bookends. This stylish set is designed from attorney appealing premium quality natural emerald, one of nature's most exquisite colors in marble. Each of the bookends features the impressive and symbolic scales of justice in a brilliant gold plated finish against the backdrop of emerald green.
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May we also suggest the following gifts...
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Comments: Rich looking and quality bookends. It goes well with my decor.


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Will Hauser and Lauren Walters – old friends – decided to start a new kind of food company: one that would make great products and help feed hungry children around the world.
They had similar backgrounds – both were the sons of two doctors and both decided on business careers instead of medicine. Both always believed that business and helping others were completely compatible.
Will, while an undergraduate at Harvard, led Harvard Student Agencies, the largest student-run business in the world, before going to Goldman Sachs. Lauren is an experienced entrepreneur, investor and advisor to companies and non-profits.
Both knew that working to reduce malnutrition would have a lasting impact on the lives of children. While NGOs and generous donors were making a difference, Will and Lauren believed that translating ordinary purchases into specific donations of meals could make an even greater impact on the lives of children.
Charity Spring scored an Exclusive interview with them.
Tell us about Two Degrees. What is the company all about?
There are over a billion hungry people in the world– some 200 million of them are children. We started Two Degrees because we believe that there's a better way to help. We believe that everyday purchase decisions matter. The products that one buys reflect certain things about the consumer. We created a brand built on giving. For every Two Degrees food product you buy (currently a line of fruit and nut snack bars), we donate a meal to a hungry child. We believe that, with consumers as our engine, we can provide millions of meals to children around the world in need.
I had spent some time in Africa– in Rwanda, Malawi, Kenya, Ethiopia and elsewhere, and saw malnutrition first hand. I was reminded that there are also hungry kids in the United States.Those experiences really stick with you. There's not much in the world that is more tragic than a starving child. But I'm an entrepreneur, not a doctor. I decided to partner with an old (well, young– he was 23 and I was 57!) friend to address this problem. Seeing Blake Mycoskie speak also inspired me. The one-for-one model resonated with me a lot, but not with shoes. I wanted to help improve lives by helping to address the problem of hunger – the foundation issue for the well being of kids. That's why we chose to focus on food. For every food product we sell, we donate a meal to a child in need. It's a simple model, yet our reach and impact is amazing.
Nutrition packs (also known as Ready to Use Therapeutic Food–RUTF) is just one type of meal that we donate. We work with a range of nonprofits around the world to create and then distribute meals to the children who need them most. In India, for example, we work with Akshaya Patra, an organization that provides hot, lentil and chickpea based meals to girls who go to school (a win-win). In Malawi, we donate RUTF to children with a diagnosis of severe acute malnutrition. As we grow, we'll continue to work in more locations around the world. Currently we work in Malawi, Kenya, Somalia, Haiti, Colombia, Myanmar and also the United States.
Haha- that's very kind of you to say. I'm a social entrepreneur at heart and I think there are a variety of avenues that people can take to help in these huge global problems. I don't know what I'll do next to be honest, but I'll be helping people. I want to inspire younger people to consider social entrepreneurship as well. Before working with Lauren, I worked in finance like many people do after college. It didn't do it for me though. It felt empty. Two Degrees has taught me so much, and I hope to continue learning and building companies that give back.
Two things: spread the word about our mission, and buy a Two Degrees bar! The more people who hear about us and try our bars, the more meals we can donate and the more lives will be saved. It's grass roots efforts, and word of mouth that will help us donate millions of meals. We don't have the marketing budgets of big food companies. We rely on our customers to be brand ambassadors for us and share with their friends and family. Together, we believe this problem can be solved. www.twodegreesfood.com


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Prices and availability are subject to change from the time and date that you print this page.
11/26/2014 1:59:34 AM. For Customer Service, please call 800.933.9904
Clearance $39.97 reg. $49.00
We know, you have enough going on in the nursery without us throwing something else in the mix. But we promise, you'll like this one. Mix and match crib bedding gives you the chance to put together a variety of colors and patterns, including dots, stripes and flowers to build a set all your own.
Details, details
- 200-thread count
- Blanket features light pink and white stripes of varying width
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- Crib sheets, bumper and skirt are no longer available
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- To order complimentary swatches, please email firstname.lastname@example.com
Show 'em what you're made of
- Knit Blanket: 100% cotton knit
Care instructions
- Machine wash cold, gentle cycle, tumble dry low; do not bleach or dry clean
The Land of Nod Guarantee
At The Land of Nod, nothing is more important to us than providing safe, high-quality products to you and your family. We believe that kids' products should be able to handle everything kids throw their way (literally and figuratively). That's why all of our products have an 18-year quality guarantee. And, hopefully, your kids will no longer be sleeping in bunk beds by then.
Knock, Knock.
Who's there?
Max who?
Max no difference
Who's there?
Max who?
Max no difference


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My awesome red Dunks.
1970-1975 chevy car (capris, impala) after marketed hip-hop style
Trick Daddy calls himself a dunk rider
by The Bad News Lunchbox August 15, 2005
amazinnggg nike shoes that have to be in as many weird colour combinations as possible to look good. worn by anyone with taste.
"he's the kind of boy that likes to stop mid-strut just to check that the white on his shoes is still showing up - please can you not step on my dunks, and dont get dirt on my dunks, they make me dizzy from the back to the front"
by gee. June 16, 2008
a big round ass.
Deshawn:yo ron, did U see that gurl Monica?
Ron:Yeah, did U see ha' ass?
Deshawn:Hell yeah, she had a DUNK!
Ron:Yeah, did U see ha' ass?
Deshawn:Hell yeah, she had a DUNK!
by YOUNG_ARIELLE January 24, 2004
The act of having effortless sex, putting in minimal to no effort towards the pursuit of sex.
"Hey man, you see that drunk whore by the bar over there? could be a dunk..."
by ShotgunLOSO December 04, 2011


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We've all seen it happen; a bad dancer that doesn't know he/she is awful. They horrify innocent party or wedding goers by filling the dance floor with sprinklers and party boys. Life is too short to have two left feet; and so many social functions revolve around dancing. Learning how to move isn't just a great activity, it's a valuable social skill.
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Bridge for Dance provides unique and exciting experiences for dancers of all ages in a bright, beautiful studio space. Students learn in a fun and non-competitive environment through a diverse schedule of classes.
Bridge for Dance
2726 Broadway, 3rd floor
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The LuxeLiving SpotlightWelcome to Luxe Living, a blog that brings you a bit of luxury to your busy life.
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DREAM – A Bridal Affair Featuring the Best San Diego Wedding Vendors
DREAM was a selective intimate bridal affair featuring San Diego's dream team of wedding vendors held at Luce Loft in downtown San Diego. Produced by Alchemy Fine Events & Invitations, Luna Photo and Isari Flower Studio, it was an interactive … Continue reading
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During the development of this project, a number of other organizations expressed either interest or support for acquisition and restoration activities. These included federal agencies, state agencies, local municipalities, land use organizations, local schools, watershed councils, and non-profit organizations. By drawing from the strength of these organizations, and coordinating our efforts with their own, Marion County will facilitate its acquisition and restoration of parklands.
Government Agencies
Development CostsWhile the costs of restoring parkland to its pre-European settlement conditions can be considerable, it is small when compared with that of developing and maintaining an intensive-use park with facilities like ball fields and shelters.
Park Type
Development Costs
Maintenance Costs
Through careful acquisition of lands, cooperation with local municipalities, and partnerships with state and federal agencies, the restoration costs can be minimized. The County is also seeking assistance from private sources and possible land donations from residents. If you would like to get involved or learn more about the program, please contact Tanya Beard, 503.365.3149, at the Marion County Department of Public Works. Thanks.


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Hmm... sounds like it scales up in damage pretty quick then in the second wing. That's good to know. Maybe taking the time to go pick up that Black Heart I never got will be worth it after all...
Anyway, Algalon did massive damage, but he did that with a lot of hits, attacking twice a second. In fact, tanking him was quite similar to Brutallus, who used the same pattern of very fast but relatively small (compared to his total damage output) hits. There is a certain balance between surviving those hit strings and preventing them in the first place.
Obviously Festergut is a massive EH fight, though as Kojiyama said, you should always have a cooldown running when he is at 3 stacks, anything else is a lottery. That's why you should pick your gear for the encounter at hand though, not all of them are like that.
I really don't know why you generally just disregard avoidance. If you think it doesn't play a major role in tanking and you just survive because of your EHP, try turning your back to the boss and ask the healers what they think. Marrowgar will do just fine since you don't need to do anything to get hit.
The big hits were at 2 stacks.
For brutallus the healers didn't have to move and healer mana was completely different back then. You really can't accurate compare the two fights imo.
"If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson
Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon
My healers could care less how much my red bar spikes up and down, or how often (within reason, but as Satorri pointed out, in the real world, EH stacking isn't some hyperbolic 0% avoidance scenario). They're built to fully-heal me in a few globals, and i've only got to survive until that happens.
There's another aspect to healing an EH tank thats often overlooked, as a healer you generally have more than the tank to worry about in terms of healing.
Personally I much prefer to heal a tank that takes very consisent damage (I don't care if it's big or small hits) because I can time my other tasks, for example pom is pretty much getting spammed off the tank and coh or a renew is easy to throw in.. but I want to know I have time to flash or even poh, with an avoidance tank who has lower health it's always a gamble that makes me hover over my GS key.
I envy pallies and warriors block :/
So you are saying you like healing tanks with more health more than healing tanks with less health. the avoidance/eh variance ratio isn't half as big as people make it be.
Well, the possible range of Health vs Avoidance is actually quite huge. The choice from one piece of gear here or there is tiny.
I wanted to see what would happen, so I went on the PTR with my DK (who conveniently is a JC, well stocked) and I regemmed everything and made a new gear setup. I wanted to see the extremes.
At the time I was meeting socket bonuses. Mostly blue sockets with pure stam, but the 2-3 red sockets I had were Agi/Stam gems, and I was using 2 stam trinkets. My weapon was runed with SSG.
I flipped things around. I traded every blue socket to Dodge/Stam, every red socket to pure dodge (also traded my JC Stam gems to Dodge), I switched my trinkets to the best avoidance trinkets I had at the time (which sadly included my Valor Medal), and switched my weapon rune to SS.
Here's what happened, unbuffed:
Before: 39.7k health, 54% avoidance
After: 29.9k health, 67% avoidance
Change EVERYTHING and it is a huge swing, change one piece here or there and it's a small step.
I was actually contemplating how best to make use of the setup and I was thinking a dual wield frost build with 3/3 in SoB could be devilish threat and comically sporadic to heal. But then I don't particularly want to do that with my live gear, very expensive to explore. Maybe I can make use of the easy triumph emblems to build a second set.
(Also, in case you were wondering, with nearly 70% avoidance RS procs will run you straight out of RP constantly).
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
Boss swings for 20k every 3 secs
Tank1 39k health TTD= 6 secs
Tank 2 41k health TTD = 9 secs
Now the reason I prefer tank 2 is I have a whole 3 secs (or 2 GCDs) longer to do something about it, now if a tank can lower the 20k hits by stacking block or armour then groovy.. but I probably don't actually care if he dodges or parries because in fact it just screws up my healing timing.
If you want to get an understanding of what you should be doing as a tank ask your healers, healing camps all know you they want to be healing in a given situation.
For me right now I would rather heal these classes in the following order:
On my DK I'd trade all my avoidance for more health and armour if I could.
- Paladin - this is just too easy to heal, very low consistant damage and if I screw up he'll save himself without having to do anything
- Warrior - once again block just makes it easy
- Druid - Big health pools but slightly harder to heal, possibly due to their lack of magic mitigation
- DK - Basically a PITA to heal unless they have alot of health and armour, a good one will make like easier by good CD use. Oh and be blood specced, don't think frost or unholy are useful.. they're not except in very specific situations.
100k health, 45k armour and zero avoidance? no problems.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
EH and avoidance i am assuming by avoidance you mean gemming every slot with stam gems vs. avoidance gems?
Personally after seeing all current content and tanking it all. I use alot of hybrid gems for def+stam, dodge + stam. Healers don't seem to have a problem healing me at all. But, don't forget those slots with those gems are also utilizing socket stam bonuses. I sit at like 45k hp buffed or close to that and raid buffed i sit a little over 55k health.
Festergut at 3 stacks can simply put kill u wether no matter what you do or gem. I have to blow shield wall and get priest cool downs.
I think right now it is to hard to tell which would be best. And personally if I had to choose I will continue to gem stam except in those spots where I can go with a hybrid gem to meet stam socket bonuses. This gives me a little more mitigation, avoidance, while still keeping me gaining stam to a degree. In my opinion its the closest balance one can get.
Satorri: yes it probably is a biased view but I do get to heal quite a few different tanks due to the size of the guild, and that we're pretty casual so different days often mean different tanks. Blood does feel better to me too, largely because VB roflstomps the frost and UH equivalents.
Ordstar: yes I was using some pretty basic numbers, and the TTD threshold is nowhere near the 40k mark, its probably closer to 48-50k now.. gut feel of course.
Something that confuses me a bit about those comments is: how can one say that tanks should stack Armor+Stamina and a DK would ideally trade all their avoidance for Armor+Stamina--but Warriors are easier to heal than Druids, who have much higher Armor and Health than Warriors?
Seems a bit inconsistant.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
Yeah it does seem odd, but block is a seriously overpowered ability in the hands of a good warrior.. and pallies basically have it up all the time.
I'm sure someone smart could do the math on how much armour you'd need to replace an end game warrior/pallies block, I have no idea myself but i'd say it'd be a hell of a lot.
This all traces back to when, once, I suggested being block capped added a cushion, in the form of "eh through dr", and endless people bashed the idea because block was not reliable...
ToC is over.
A good warrior knows when to pop shield block, its crap on alot of fights, but its quite potent when used cleverly, after your first stack of impale on gormok you can pretty much negate the increased iDPS of the bleed, by shaving the damage off his melee swings. On marrowgar, its not much but when he comes out of bone storm it can be dangerous while your co-tanks and healers repositon. with sabre lashes hitting you three times if you have no stacked frienda for 16K a 4k block on each one is 25% damage reduction minimum assuming you dont get a crit block. or 50% assuming you crit block all of it
to make block better than armour you'd need to push hit off the table, and have a large enough block value that your blocks would absorb ~65% of the bosses base physical damage. its really not going to happen becuase warriors can't easily push hit off the table 100% of the time, and if bosses hit clothies for 45k then i need to blocking for about 30K minimum.
the biggest i can push my block to is 12k, and thats a critical Block(60% chance to block for double) shield block(+100% base BV +100% block chance 10 secs on40sec CD), lavanthor's talisman (+440 block value) and the autoblocker ( +200 BV) all up at once. poping one trinket starts a mini CD on the other, so i can only maintain this high block for about 10 seconds every 2 minutes. and as critical block is no way guaranteed... its not going to happen with current itemization
Now, tengen, you can't assume blocking with 0 armor. Armor will always be there, and in relatively large amounts. The armor you have to evaluate is the GAP between warrior armor with blocking against nonblockers' armor(alongside with any %dr both will have)


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Aspen vacation rentals open the door to some of the best ski terrain—suitable for all skill levels—in the country. A legendary winter playground, Aspen features world-class skiing and phenomenal off-mountain fun in the charming downtown area.
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The Inn at Aspen is undergoing a major common area/lobby renovation April 7 to mid-November, 2014. Guest rooms are open, but the restaurant, bar, fitness and meeting rooms will be closed. A temporary check-in location is just left of the lobby, and limited amenities are available on site.


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Bull Terrier Mushin is inspired by the culture of the ancient samurai. Controlling one's own mind is among the most difficult and challenging of all human endeavors; Mushin is a mental state into which very highly trained martial artists are said to enter during combat.
Prepare for battle with Bull Terrier gear!
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Sweet Spats
By Willjitsu
from Misawa Japan
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Comments about Bull Terrier Mushin Long Spats:
Do you hate chaffing? Don't worry about it. Do you like sweet looking gear? Buy these. I love these spats they are comfy, sweet looking, and keep the perfect amount of traction. Downsides, they do get pretty hot and they run a little long(could also be because I'm short 5'6' 165). Great spats if you like them get them, BULL TERRIER is legit.
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Yep, it can be a bit annoying when someone who wants help doesn't link their armoury. I'd say this should be stickied.
First, start by reviewing the stickies above. Most classes have a specific guide and they provide a lot of good and detailed information.
If you still have a question, feel free to post and ask it, but keep in mind, to truly and thoroughly help you we need some information first. Specifically we need:
These things will provide us with enough information to provide a detailed response from one of our community members.
- Your question, be as specific as possible (this means if you are having trouble with something, detail what your trouble is!).
- An armory link of you or the person / persons in question, if relevant.
- If no armory link can be provided, then provide names, servers and region (US, EU etc).
- A link to a combat parse if relevant, preferably on World of Logs or similar site.
- Any other relevant data or information (spells used, gear links from WoWHead, etc).
Last edited by Amamaeth; 02-18-2010 at 08:22 AM.
Yep, it can be a bit annoying when someone who wants help doesn't link their armoury. I'd say this should be stickied.
I would note that this thread is mostly likely for specific questions, not "help, my healing sucks!" that would be for the guides or the "Halp!" section of the forums. Thanks Amamaeth.
I think it's because this forum seems to be the only place for healers. I never even thought to go into the Halp! forum before, and I just took a quick look at it now and it's pretty much full of tanking threads. So, if I were new, and I had a question about healing, I'd likely come to the Healing forum too.
Upon a second look, the description of the Halp! forum says; "For tanks: How's my talent spec, rate my armoury and other requests for help go here." So perhaps that would be contributing as well?
The description for the DPS forums also used to talk about just tanking classes as DPS, and it may still be that way. However, I was told a thread about my Warlock stuff in there would be fine. Tankspot was originally a community for Tanks, but it has evolved into much more. I agree that the section descriptions would help facilitate this. However, all we can do is suggest...
Well, generally, people who are looking for help aren't going to do an in-depth read through of things just to get someone to look at their armory. They probably should, but they just won't. Therefore, they're going to beeline for the forum appropriate for their class, and ask away, regardless of the rules. You can ban them when they do that, but they'll still do it, and you're just creating more work for yourself in the process.
Ultimately, you just need more or less understanding forum trolls who'll either give them the advice they need, or politely point them to the right forum. That, too, may be too much to ask.
I really don't think the thread was intended for this back and forth. I made a simple comment to hopefully direct people to the appropriate places while keeping this thread relevant and I already regret it. Let's get some questions here.
Here's a question: If you're a disc priest and you have noooooooooooooothing to do. Is it a good idea to simply pre-shield everyone? Assuming the raid often takes incidental raid damage, though not necessarily of the predictable sort.
and the long winded answer: http://www.tankspot.com/entry.php?31...ling-Deviation
i am currently lvlling a holy priest (51), and have gotten a couple of comments asking me not to bubble the tank, as he does not generate rage otherwise, and therefore cannot keep threat......why would no other warrior tanks complain, and would this also affect feral druids?
That used to happen, but it was fixed quite some time ago. Feel free to bubble warriors as much as you like, they'll still gain rage.
Ka Pai, GMT+12 recruiting now!
Rapture (Rank 3)
Also, have Aliena yell at them.
Heres my armory for starters, Im in icc10/25 content and for as long as I remember I have always socketed Luminious Ametrine and Seer eye of Zul. (12sp and 10int)(10int and 10spirit) But i see then going for 12 Sp and 10 spirit and Straight spell power. So my question would be When do I know when its okay to Socket pure spell power over a hybrid gem?
Yes, im gearing for holy. Also another quick question with spec, should i not dip down into Mental agility? would the points be better spent on empowered renew or empowered healing? I dont ever see any holy priests going down to mental agility even though it would benefit from PoM CoH renew etc.
hey there, i'm having a couple of problems, that i dont understand...
so, first, holy palas should be allways on the top of healings right?, my question is, why i'm not!
Normaly palas can heal 60k's,and i dunno why, my max heal is 20k, and my actual gear is not so bad (wowarmory)
so, i dunno why i allways do a crappy heal , i have all right gems, enchants....
I allways use flash light/holy on thanks, using beacon of light on Main tank/off tank. and on some damage situations Holy shock.
Maybe is my spec, the reason of my crap heals ?
My gear?
Help me pls


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Hand of Protection on low HP people (or the soaker when not topped off) is a godsend - does not make others take more damage; just the HoPped person be immune to a stomp
No other thread about this so though I'd start 1 for those who wanna try. If you haven't you probably won't till next reset, in which case there will probably be some guides out there. Anyways I'm gonna lay down our strategy and I'll happily accept feedback on how to improve.
We are still progressing here but have found a tactic we are happy with, just execution and healing/dps output needing on our behalf. We raid 25 man btw.
Split the raid in two, so it's more like 2 separate raids.
Boss's stomp hits 2 people for double dmg, tank + another. We've found best to use a rogue with feint. If you don't have rogues, make sure you've got high hp character soaking this and a resto shaman healing him, keeping up riptide on him 100% to give him some extra hp! (or alternatively rotate people with cooldowns, iceblock, bubble, sac, dispersion etc etc.)
Assuming 3 healers, 1 tank, 1 stomp soaker in each grp, that leaves you with 8 other dps. If healers in your raid are un-evenly skilled/geared, or only 1 restoshaman, you may wanna bring 7 healers and have the resto shaman be where there are only 3 healers (his extra hp buff on this fight is amazing).
Tanks need to be careful on moving him, don't move out of range while he's doing stomp. Time your movement so you and your soaker can stand your ground on the stomp, then move to crystal in between. All the grp should be soaking the stomp to reduce spike dmg. Rest of dps should move fast to crystal to soak it.
As a tank, have some form of cooldown on each stomp, makes healers life sooooo much easier and they can focus on topping off other soakers.
Fatal mistakse we've made:
Dps moving ahead of grp to crystal, didn't soak the stomp, other crystal soakers weren't topped up enough to survive the crystal.
Healers getting left behind while moving boss, got out of stomp range resulting in dead soakers.
Morchok does stomp and crystal first, offtank kept the twin too close and Morchok's dps got stomped twice as the crystal spawned to close to the twin.
There are probably more I just can't remember right now... selective memory you see
Last edited by Garbid; 12-08-2011 at 07:57 AM.
Hand of Protection on low HP people (or the soaker when not topped off) is a godsend - does not make others take more damage; just the HoPped person be immune to a stomp
Yeah, we did that too 5 soakers in a grp together for Prayer heals, and soakers in other groups got bop or were classes with iceblock and mechanics that could negate the dmg with a druid or pala watching over them.
Secondary stomp soaker: it's physical damage so bringing a plate wearer over a "high hp class", likely with a shield (= holy paladin, because all non tanking classes should have a similar amount of hitpoints of 150k ish)... unless you got a rogue.
Why do you need/want a cooldown for every stomp on 25m? Does it kills you right away? On 10m it's only 100k damage (that +100% damage taken debuff fades before a new stomp occurs every time) and his regulary hits on block tanks are fairly doable (35kish).
Druids going into bear form helps too. Our boomkin gets 60% more armor in bear form if I remember correctly.
Melee attacks from Morchok shortly after stomp hit for 100k and the stomp for 160k on a 390 ilvl tank.
On heroic 25 man, neither Morchok nor Kohcrom stomp for significant amounts of damage. I am not sure if it is bugged, or if intended by the journal is not up to date, however you do not need to double soak crystals and stomps.
If you take Morchok right (looking at temple) and Kohcrom left, Morchok will always spawn crystals away from the temple while Kohcrom spawns towards the temple.
Three people are all that is needed minimum to soak on 25 man heroic - Tank, the double soaker and a third. This means that you can assign 7 people to always be ranged for crystal - in our case, 4 dps and 3 healers on one side and 5 dps and 2 healers on the other. These people can get into almost the exact position of the crystal as it is predetermined, and the handfull of melee along with the tank and soaker will be more than enough for stomp.
This allows each side to only have a group hit by crystal + a group hit by stomp with no overlap meaning half the healing required and virtually no movement - it turns it into very close to a tank and spank.
Our guild killed it this way this week and will have a video up tomorrow so you can see it if interested, though note that it is possible stomp is not working correctly and if it gets fixedd this strat will go out the window.
4 healers 2 tanks 4 dps. We dragged the two morchok's about 40 yards apart and just had at them. 2 healing 2 dps 1 tanking each mini-morchok.
The only real trick I have to offer is to build a good ignite before the split and cleave a combustion on to both of them for the short time they are in range. I guess the same goes for other DoT classes.
[Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable
The damage going out in each 'group' is low, just at times it spikes pretty high but a thoughtput cooldown would easily compensate according to our holy pally. When our logs show each healer only doing like 7k hps on a heroic fight, it seems clear that 2 healing would work. But then why not force our legendary weilding ele shaman go resto with a dragonwrath on his back XD.
That's how we squeezed our 4 healers we made our ele sham, and shadow priest go holy/resto. Then change back for the next fight. Keeping 4 healers on staff for a full tier is hard, and there are plenty of fights that need to be 3 healed Hagara, Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj is 2, ultraxion can be 3 if each dps can do 40k+.
[Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable
Here is our strategy/Kill video -
www.youtube.com/setsawow - Video Guides for current content
I could really use some help on H Morchok here. I've watched several vids, including the one above, & am doing what they do, in regards to tanking, but peeps are still dying to Stomp. What I do is when a Crystal spawns, I move ASAP & park the boss ~5-10 yrds away from it, the 3 ranged hugs Crystal, & me & my fellow mDPS soak the double-dmg Stomp. Despite this, peeps are still dying mostly to Stomp dmg. We figure it's a positional thing, maybe with our ranged, but seeing as we position just like they do in the vids, I'm at a loss.
Here's a WoL from our latest raid. I was absent from it due to really bad DC'ing & was replaced, but hopefully you guys can look through it & see where we're going wrong. Thanks in advance!
My guild got our first H:Morchok kill last night and the length of the fight was 6:46 while 4 healing. I say this because from your log it seems you had 3 attempts that could have been kills. From my perspective it seems your problem can be summed up in one word: cooldowns.
Your prot pally never used Guardian of Ancient Kings on any of the 3 longer attempts and it seems he didn't use Divine Guardian on the first of the 3 (try 5) but he did on the last 2.
Your holy paladin could have ran Devo and used Aura Mastery.
Your Frost DK never used Icebound Fortitude.
Hunter didn't use Deterrence.
I don't think your resto shaman used Stoneclaw totem.
You get the idea.
It seems that you have the fight learned because you survived 6+ minutes on 3 attempts but you don't have a cooldown plan. Once Morchok/Korchump hit 20% have some kind of plan for chaining raid & personal cooldowns. Ie, after 20% first stomp Divine Guardian, 2nd Spirit Link, 3rd Barrier, 4th personal cds, 5th tranquility, etc. Of course, plan according to how your groups are split up. Tanks need to save big cooldowns to be able to chain them at that point as well. Prot pally for example should be able to go DP/HS > GoAK > AD for 30ish seconds of cooldowns. Plus, each paladin can Hand of Protection someone so they take no damage from a stomp and they can bubble themselves to take no dmg from a stomp (prot just has to click it off immediately to regain threat).
As a mage if you have impact up you can get full DoT's on both 'morchoks' right from the off, including combustion which is an amazing dps buff.
[Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable
Has anyone got any good tips for the pull -> first crystal period? So many of our attempts have been screwed up by the first crystal spawning in a position that's over on Kochrom's side but that ought to be soaked by Morchok team. Before our holiday downtime, we seemed to be having some success pulling over to the right hand side, but didn't seem to work as well yesterday. Is there something about the facing of the boss that can be used to influence the crystal spawns?
a) it doesn't matter who got the beams from the crystal just make sure you've 3 people soaking it, the nearest ones count for it
b) if you really struggle with the first crystal there's a rather simple solution: just wait for the first crystal spawn before pushing him. That's what we did for our firstkill, now everyone is just overeager to rank and don't want to waste their prepot etc
We just burn him to 90% and the team closest to the first crystal takes it.
Curious situation we found ourselves in with Stomp, our hunter is taking more Stomp damage than he has total hit points sometimes. My assumption was that the double damage part of Stomp was directed at the two closest people to Morchok/Kochrom, this is centered on the boss and not the tank, correct?
We have our Rogues taking the extra damage (Kochrom side is Outbackjack(warrior), Hanners (hunter), Ayva (shaman), Jeskah (rogue), Moodar (druid)) and I'm fairly confident that Jeskah is staying right up Kochrom's butt and Hanners is not closer than I am. Am I missing something obvious here?
Wow...that's a crazy looking log
I think you might be tanking them too closely together...or something else super weird.
There was a stomp on your first wipe (the last one, that killed the shaman and hunter) that hit for a total of 2m post-mitigation damage...granted they had the debuff, but that's a LOT of damage...more than I'd have expected by far.
I almost seems to be it is the tank and the closest person to the tank that takes double damage, it could be a movement issue that the server has the boss moving or something. Also a couple weeks back there was a hot fix for more than two people taking double damage.
We ry to minimize movement and have the tank and the soaker stand inside the bosses hit box. For us a holly pally is the soaker and he's solo healing the side which makes it very hard for him if we move, the three crystal soakers need to say within 25 yards for the stomp and then move out to the crystal, their dps is probably lower because they are moving a lot but dps is a not an issue for this fight.