text:
In the past, I was the nicest guy in the world. That was my M.O.
I was nice with everyone.
All the time.
I always put people ahead of me.
I think I could have gotten a gold medal in the Nice Olympics.
I did it because it made me feel good about myself.
I had my first real relationship with a woman when I was 18 years old. It lasted two years.
This is very sad and disturbing for me to admit, but even though I really wanted to break things off with her, I stayed with her for a year longer JUST BECAUSE I FELT GUILTY.
I thought that this girl NEEDED me. I wanted to be a good person. I wanted to HELP her. I felt like I was being there for her, although I knew that ultimately I needed to break up with her.
After that mess of a relationship ended, I became best friends with a girl who was severely depressed. I felt like I was helping her. Although she was gorgeous, I didn't really like her as anything more than a friend. She was obsessive and depressive and that was a turn off.
But I was best friends with her. We would talk for hours on the phone almost every day. She would go from guy to guy obsessing over why he didn't like her. And I would be there for her as a friend.
I would try to help her figure it out. Of course, I enabled her obsession and made it even worse without me knowing it. But I felt like a saint. I felt like I was truly doing something good for somebody, even though I wasn't happy. The relationship lasted years.
Being a nice guy was integrally tied to my self-esteem. Everywhere I went, I would put others ahead of me. I eventually read a life-changing book called Codependency No More. It taught me how to be responsible for my happiness and not other people's.
If you have the terminal Nice Guy disease, this book is a great place to start to get over some of that. It helps you to understand boundaries within relationships and how caretaking too much can be detrimental to everyone involved.
But how is this related to pickup and approach anxiety?
Women are turned off by the nice guy. While most healthy women don't want someone who is going to be mean to them, there's a difference between being kind and being a disgusting wussy.
In my first relationship, I was a disgusting wussy. You know that guy, the one who says "Is everything okay with you? Are you sure? Are you really really sure?"
He avoids conflict at all costs. He wants everything to be smooth. Not only does this person lack honesty in the relationship, but he lacks all backbone and any thoughts and feelings of his own. He's a wet blanket, not a person.
I was the nice nice nice guy. And I also had huge approach anxiety. These two are related.
Part of approach anxiety is a strong tendency to avoid conflict. You don't want to BOTHER the girl. You wouldn't be able to handle it if you did something to make her not like you.
Or if, God forbid, you creeped her out? It would take you weeks to get over it.
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that relationships are about two independent people coming together out of strength rather than out a of desire to feel good about helping some other person.
Being super nice can kill attraction in seconds. Attraction is based on a push/pull. A bit of teasing. Show the girl that you are willing to lose her. Make her take responsibility for her half of the interaction. She wants to be challenged!
Instead, the nice guy wears insecurity on his sleeve without knowing it. He sees it as a badge of honor for why he doesn't succeed with women. He clings to it to cover the pain of failure.
It's good to be nice to women. But hoping that meekness will attract women is a fallacy. Niceness on this magnitude is read by women as overcompensation for not having balls. It is overcompensation for not being willing to take true risks.
Want to get out of Nice Guy Land? Try taking a few risks.
Try saying "Ewww" every once in a while when the girl says something, just to keep it interesting.
Try teasing her. Lovingly call her a brat or a nerd. "That's so cute, you're such a dork!"
When you throw in some spice like this, it shows you aren't a yes man, but a true human being that can interact with her, call her on her shit sometimes, and give her a spank on the ass when she's been bad.
She'll love you for it.
posted in Acceptance, AttractionCOMMENTS
Wow! I've never looked at it this way.
Thanks! I'm going to stop to be the nice guy for now. It's so true what you've been written here, i really have nodding acquaintance with this, i really do.
Thanks again
Well said, this is a realization ive had in the last few months and wish I knew about it earlier, good stuff
The best advice I can offer is to take a girl seriously. Saying 'ewww' or calling her (lovingly) a 'dork' does not qualify: neither does saying 'yes' all the time. The girl in question needs, of course, to merit such attention. If she doesn't, move on.
That's the best way I've seen it put, not degrading to women, but it explains to nice guys why they're putting themselves out there to be walked all over. Excellent job!
Being nice shouldn't disqualify someone from being assertive. I think for a lot of people, this deals with confidence (though not for you) as much as anything else.
If you want women to stay interested in you, you have to act like you don't give a shit about anything. How do you do that? Can we have an example of what you mean, you ask? Sure. If she says, "Hey, want to go out Friday to the bar?" You say, "Yeah, let me call you Thursday and let you know then." Then don't call Thursday. Call Friday afternoon and don't mention "forgetting" to call. Stuff like that is what makes them want you. Another thing to do to see if a chick is interested is not saying to her, but just up and leave the room, see if she follows you around. Shit like that.
Hey man, I used to be in the same zone. You definitely hit some of the high points. The hardest part for a "nice guy" to understand is that women don't find men interesting that are giving into them all the time, even though a nice guy will say "I gave her everything she wanted". And sure women say they want a "nice guy", but they want is someone who has a backbone and can stand up for them, but nice in the sense that they don't abuse her, not nice in the sense of give into any any request she has.
Anna, are u serious take a girl seriously? Approaching women and dating is about having fun and flirting. Telling a woman 'ewww' or 'dork' are definitely good ways to do that, not in a stern mean voice, but in a light hearted teasing manner.
gawd, you're just now figuring this out? haha, that's gold. chicks HATE nice guys. always have. nice guys are pussies. girls want bad, dangerous boys who treat them like shit. and the chicks who say otherwise are lying. give them what they want.
That's true about nice guys but the advice at the end is terrible. Come on if you want to show you're a man, be a man don't go "Ewwww" on her. Be affirmative, stand your ground and stop being kissey-assey.
Hey thtz 1 damn gud blog tht i totally agree wth…..xcept for th "Eww" part!
A guy bein Jst to PERFECT,SWEEEEEEEEET,NICCCCCCCEEEE ,n agreein wth evrythin th grl says is a Night mare!!Or wud say a Total Turn oFF!!
Girls love it ven being challenged..
Soo..who evr wrote ths blog,G8 job,coz atlast som1 cud put it in writin,else it wud hav been a lot more difficult xpressin it thru speech!!
[...] Some choice excerpts: Women are turned off by the nice guy. While most healthy women don't want someone who is going to be mean to them, there's a difference between being kind and being a disgusting wussy. [...]
Nothing applies to everyone. Little of any norm applies to me.
And I'd prefer to find a girl the same way.
I don't like a challenge, **** a challenge. I don't want push/pull, **** that. I know exactly what I want in a female and I don't need some game to tell me what's what. I know I'm in a minority on this because every guy I've mentioned this too said they don't want that.
Are there any girls out there that don't want a game?
and are NOT sluts and are NOT submissive to abusive idiots.
Wish I knew where they lived..
I had this same problem. Thank you for helping me. As I was reading I knew you had co-denpendency problems… I have it and I'm going to get this book.
If you're too nice they walk all over you. I tell this to myself but sometimes I'm a sucker to it all.
[...] More data: Begs the question, do nice guys have to finish last? [...]
its about boundaries as you said. you dont let her into places where she dont belong (emotionally), and she shuld do the same. you should not here her life story on date 1. you shuld be hearing about her dreams and who she imagines her self to be if she didnt have her own hangups. you should let her be this person, by doing as you say, calling her on her shit. example: "ive always wanted to go back to school to do xyz, but lfe is just so complicated now, and i just have no time so I do like my job, and what I have now." nice guy respinse: "yeah i know what you mean… i feel the same way. but at least things arent THAT bad!" normal person respoinse:"fuck that girl! sure things are complicated, but if thats something you really want in life, your going to lay down and let your shitty job and a buncha shit you dont like in your life take the place of finding what you want? come on, on first impression meeting you, you dont seem the complacent type… etc etc etc…. ..
build her up by tearing her down a bit and letting her know you know she has the freedom and choice to be who she wants to be, you will let her be that girl, you will trust she can live on her own, if SHE can stand up – and let her know you dont want the complacent girl who finds comfort. she will then reward you for keeping her on her toes by learning to deep throat!
Great article, thanks for posting this.
[...] read more | digg story [...]
[...] Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching Women [...]
hi everybody.
i'm a nice guy.
thanks for the article. will have a look at the book… i definitely need to get a backbone…
girls love to date bad and dangerous guys, they marry the nice guys. try be a mix of both
I completely agree with Horus, I guess I am a part of the minority of guys who doesn't want to play a "game" and knows what kind of woman we want.
I wish I knew where they were too Horus….
[...] I don't know how, but it seems that ryan being single has become a project of sorts. .. to several different people lately. And I'm not sure how to interpret it. .. Ok so it's been.. .. well. A good number of years since I've been in a real relationship. Co-workers have always tried to set me up, and continue trying. .. one comment from one of my good friends (Bl00k) commented recently about me: 'When it says, " i luv teh internets" under your picture and you say that your computer is yearning for you at home, I think it's time you get out and meet some women.' Then later that SAME day, I see a digg article about some ghey website for nerds who don't know how to meet women.. And i actually related a little to that article (seriously, how pathetic is that?). I do suffer from the 'terminal nice guy disease'. But I'm no doormat either. [...]
What? Horus, you don't want push/pull, you want no game? Those kind of girls must be the most unpleasant people to be with!
I love push/pull cause it get you invested and it's the point where you have to show whether you got balls or not. Maybe you guys looking for those perfect chicks simply don't understand that
1. Those chicks you want will not fall for you…
2. If you don't have the balls, then you don't have the girl.
Eric is spot on. Take more than a few risk and you'll be the guy girls (and people in general) will want to be around.
[...] A website to help you stop being the nice guy that finishes lastread more | digg story [...]
Be the nice guy. Don't believe this blog post and comments saying not to be nice.
Thanks, EXTRA thanks.
Killer post as always…keep 'em coming!
This article is lame.
Sorry, author, but it is.
"Getting a girl/keeping a woman" is not like buying a new car and maintaining it.
There are no guides to help you make your purchase. No friends to tell you if they think it's the correct one for you. No mechanics to offer their opinion on "how long this baby will last, if you drive it how it should be driven".
This is why the girly mags suck so much… everything, and everyone, in these mags gets a label… and there are no variables. So quizzes are made to determine if a relationship "will work out". Advice is given because "a relationship is currently working out" (for the author). And it's all bullshit.
If you follow the advice in this article you are not in a relationship, you are in a performance; an actor trying to maintain a role for as long as humanely possible.
The secret answer to the relationship "lock" is: There is no key. Hell, there isn't even a lock.
The following is not relationship advice, it is life advice: Just be yourself. And let other people be themselves. Don't judge. Don't label. And hope for the same in return. There is no script to read. No forced dialog. No fake smiles, no faux grimaces. Be legitimate in every action, and inaction, you take and I fully believe life will surprise you in the end.
PS Eric A.K.A. Disco: Your writing is swell. And I dig the art you are throwing in. I just looked at the rest of approachanxiety.com.
You have a good eye for things and I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you are doing because it appears you are writing from the heart.
Just recognize that this can easily tip over into "inverse girly-mag" content, like this particular article seems to.
There's a fine line between writing about self-discovery and prescribing it for others.
That's all.
I think this is one of the best article on the "Mr. Nice Guy" disease… maybe it's should be called the "Mr. TOO Nice" phenomenon. I've been there!
The thing is being nice is not bad… but you still need to show self-respect. When you tie being nice to your self-esteem (like too many guys do), that's when it gets bad because you are looking for validation and acceptance from the people around you.
I guess we should blame society for pushing the idea that women are delicate, soft and cuddly creatures to the extreme. Yes, they are delicate, soft and cuddly but you don't need to use extra special care to "deal" with them as if you are going to break them.
Be kind. Don't be TOO nice
You know, you are probably right for the majority of women out there. But i can assure you that there are women, like me, who fall for the nice guys. That said, it's true that you are narowing down your chances of finding someone when you arent targeting the majority. But, quality is better than quantity no? I'm not saying that the girls who dig nice guys are better, but generaly the ones who go for Mr bad boy arent much of a loss.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey good article. I'm a 20 year old who's only been with a couple of girls for that same reason, being too nice. I've always figured that girls will grow up and they'll eventually get sick of the assholes but I think that I need to change a bit of my nice ways as well.
I have spent the last 2 years trying to figure out this whole man woman thing. Hours upon hours reading, researching and asking women questions. Ever since grade school girls would shit on me. I learned through conditioning to be non-confrontational with the opposite sex. It carried over into my adult hood (I'm 33). Only asked a few girls out and never really got any where. Then once the girl got to know me I would get the old. "I wish I could meet a guy like you" "I wish my boyfriend / husband was like you" I would say I'm available and get the old "Nooo! your to nice". (What the hell?) I (the nice guy) would also get the "Why don't you have a girlfriend?" line all the time. Every nice guy has heard that over and over. It's so bad that even some strippers wont dance for me or take my money, but sit and tell me there whole life story and not even let me buy them a drink. I become the "buddy". (Nice guys and strippers is a whole other story) Not dating, having sex or seeing a stripper naked is our reward for treating women with respect and being nice (It suck's!!). A nice guy has to be nice 100% of the time. If he wavers even a tiny bit he's cast to the side like garbage. While the bad boy can be an ass 99% of the time and the woman waits for that 1% of niceness to show. It's a stupid game women play and nobody wins. The rules are never the same and a woman can make them up as she goes. Women do things to us that they wouldn't tolerate for a second if we did it to them. I have come to the conclusion that women have no idea what they want. Have no idea what a nice guy is. Can't tell the difference between a confidant man and an asshole. Have zero logic. Want to be dominated and told what to do by a man 90% of the time. Want us to know exactly what they are thinking from the first meeting with out any clues from them. It's hard work to stop being so nice and not be afraid to be a man around women. I'm still working on it and the biggest help was realizing that really hot girl that shot me down and treated me bad. Is more sad and pathetic then I could ever be. Shake those women off that pedestal and look down on them. They don't want to be equal. Most really are afraid of heights. Don't be afraid to talk to her. What is she going to do, have NO sex with you more? Never put a woman above you or feel sorry for her. It will take time, but you will feel so much better about yourself after awhile. Thank you
I agree about not wanting to play the game.
The only way to get out of it, from my experience,
is if you're exposed to a large enough pool of women,
you'll eventually stumble upon someone who's so
into you that there is no need for game-playing.
That said, it's still good to not be overly nice,
to limit your availability.
Remember, women aren't looking for "jerks" or
"bad boys" so much as someone that touches
their emotional core in different ways.
"Nice guys" offer an unmodulated, straight-ahead
experience for women that's usually dull
and predictable.
[...] I feel that our world is becoming too politically correct. Girls are taught to constantly express their independence and strength to prove they can be equal to men. Boys are taught to suppress their natural competitive and more masculine urges out of tolerance for the other person and in order to avoid conflict. I believe this is the real cause for the "terminal Nice Guy disease" that Eric "Disco" M. from PU101 wrote about. [...]
you know, its very funny that I should come across this website. A few friends and I were discussing what we wanted at a bar the other night after having to many drinks and having all become a little bit to open. The women at this table were all between 30 and 50 and most of them were pretty successful. Several worked in positions of authority. They were all smart, driven, strong, and they new it. but as we sat there drinking and pouring out our souls we all admitted we didn't really want to have to be strong. We liked the idea of being "the weaker sex". We wanted to be treated like we were delicate and although we didn't want men to be jerks, every now and then we just wanted to be taken by the shoulders, given a shake, and just be told what to do!
But we all admit that its not something thats really possible in our society. if we don't step up and take charge of things then our little worlds will fall apart.
[...] A website to help you stop being the nice guy that finishes lastread more | digg story April 11th, 2007 | Category: General Sciences | [...]
It's good to know where Approach-Anxiety is coming from: it a fear that is implated in you by society. And it's not always fear, it pure adrenaline!
Unfortunately there ist only one way to overcome it: by doing it!
The key for me are three things: detachment from the outcome, body-language and practice.
I am a 29 yr old male 6'3 3/4′s when I was young I used to live a good established life till my parents wanted to move to another location I had one sister at the time, I was in grade 6 at the time, so I finished my grade off at the old house and started my new grade 7 in another school , let me tell you it was hell I was picked on the first day at school, then a girl I liked told me we should be boyfreind and girlfriend I was so happy I told me sister and she was happy for me , then at the end of the day the girl broke my heart and said she was joking about liking me I was devastated, long story short that changed me and it is through david dangelo, vin dicarlo and brad p(whom I admire the most) that got me back on track and now it is time to kill the nice guy in me and be the jerk 99% of the time!!!! Life is right nice guys do finish last!!!! You can still be a nice guy but only 0.5 percent thats it anything more and you lose your chances!!!!
Women want to be treated like shit!! The only women that ever loved me and wanted to get me in bed were the ones that I was cold to and rude to. I think a lot of this stems from so many girls not having fathers growing up and are looking for a protector figure.
If you treat girls and women like you treat guys you will do fine. Don't worry about offending them because most girls and women are no good any way and are so screwed up in the head that they don't know what they want. Does anyone remember after Ted Bundy murdered many people? Well, at his trial the courtroom was filled with women wanting to give him love letters!! May be women have a deep down desire to get brutally murdered!! All women are messed up bad!!
I stumbled upon this article and now i have a question: how does one nice girl get one nice guy to stop being such a wuss. i really like one of my good friend's roommates, and i know he is attracted to me, but he's the typical "nice guy" and he doesn't want to make any moves. this is partially b/c his roommate, our mutual friend, has told him not to, but i just want this guy to see that our friend doesn't control who can or can't talk to me. i even told him that, but he's still pussyfooting around the whole issue. how can i get him to stop being so timid/nice/wussy so we can connect (and hopefully score)??
Glad to see other.
so what are some decent pick up lines. what if she has a tennis bracelet; what exactly does that mean? How do u get her to talk to you and ditch the rich bitch boyfriend that bought that thing for her? im not rich, im a grad phd student, not ugly, just a nerd and my ex taught me how to dress. i dont wear glasses. but there is a hottie in my class that id like to kick it with but i dont know where to go from there. we've done lame shit like study together, but i mostly listened to my ipod and studied at the same table. suggestions?
I am one of those nice guys who doesn't like playing games like Horrus, Be nice and Random guy. I was in a 6 year relationship and the girl left me because I became too nice, since that I have dated multiple girls who drop me after 3 or 4 seemingly good dates because (I assume) they got bored of me because I am too nice. After the last one I have been spending more time than I care to mention researching every blog and article on the internet to try and make sense of why nice guys finish last. And the most common response from women regarding nice guys in their 20's is the following:
If you want to be with someone right now, you have to change, be a dick, don't call her back, don't open doors for her, cheat on her when possible and all that shit. But if you are like me and unwilling to change into this a**hole, then all you can do is wait until your 30, by then all these girls will have dealt with enough jerks and are now looking for guys like us.
My personal conclusion, I'm waiting.
This is a great site! I stumbled upon it by accident looking for general anxiety info (ya know… for all situations not just The Approach!) I am really glad I found it. I will be coming back here.
Thanks !
Anxious Guy
[...] A website to help you stop being the nice guy that finishes lastread more | digg story Posted in Uncategorized | Leave a Comment [...]
[...] A website to help you stop being the nice guy that finishes lastread more | digg story [...]
[...] A website to help you stop being the nice guy that finishes lastread more | digg story [...]
[...] Re: Best advice for 21 y o beginner welcome. pheros will help (much stronger than the placebo effect). but it takes time (months, even a year) to learn to recognise how. you still need to develop yourself… the blog below isn't a bad place to start. Approach Anxiety » Blog Archive » Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching Women [...]
I also think to many men compliment women to much. You are give up too much power. Stop that shit. If you see a hot babe somewhere recognize it for what is is, NOTHING. So what she's hot, so what. It doesn't make her tits & ass any better, and it certainly doesn't make her smarter. SO THE FUCK WHAT.
Why nice guy fear to approaching women, because no money no car, no house, no skill, no ideal and no no….. to many no if i want to list up.
the import is no CONFIDENT, SCARE LOSE.
My oppinion on this is that Mr Nice guy attracts Ms Dominant girl who will from the beginning try to find ways of controling him and slowly isolating him from his buddies in order to get his full attention. Could be that this type of girls have less friends of their own and they dont relay too much on social ranking.
On the other hand many better looking girls, blondes etc like to be told what to do and stuff, they like to be dominated, so Mr Nice must be a turn off for them. So the bad guy is just the guy for them.. also, they have a lot more friends and social ranking is important for them, so the guy must have good communication skills, must protect her from other needy guys and so on.
why is it the nice guys that get such a bad rep? from what i've heard, it is the nice guys that end up living a happy life and end up getting all the chicks in the end and end up getting married.
besides, i don't understand how the jerk guy actually has any "confidence" at all. if he so into hurting people, wouldn't that mean that he has lower self-esteem and less confidence from the start?
The author is absolutely right. Having been too nice too many times.I have now learned to treat women like they behave.and they are full of you know what too ! you have to call them out and not be a wuss 1 let them know who's first … YOU! and you will have their respect if you insist on not being a man and treating them like women they will walk all over you ! Over and Over and Over again .You want to know why you're not getting any because if their tiny minds you are not a man! They expect you to challenge them , take charge and call them on their bull .If you don't they take advantage of you ! There is a such thing as being too good and it's boring. I 'm no longer the nice guy .I am me and I really don't give a rats behind what they think. It's about what I want, remember this .
Hey Guys,
One thing some of you misunderstood:
- It's NOT about being an asshole and treating women like shit.
- It's about not being a wuss and saying ok to whatever she says/does if you don't actually think it's true. It's about not giving up (all your) power.
- The tip with the eww (a nice eww of course) and such: In smalltalk-situations this works, because it may be that you find that thing she said just now "eww"-ish, she has no way of knowing if you really do. It's a good thing if your too nervous to actually respond with real ewws when appropriate. Just be careful, she might ask you why you think it's eww-ish, and then you better have a good answer (don't back down then!)
That's about it. Now I'm going to approach the subway girl. (Actually it's not a subway, but a train… =)
it's like this whole article was written about me. I'm really glad i found this website. For now on i'm going to not nice.
OK…I just had to chime in on this very close to home hitting topic. My (in)"significant" other of almost 30 years now is loaded with "fear of approaching women". He refuses to extend himself PERIOD! Rejection being the KEY issue on his part. So instead of taking ANY chance at all that he might experience one tiny bit of rejection…he lives in an unreal world of complacency and IMHO tedium. We have come to a parting of ways at this point…I refuse to continue to put forth effort that inevitably results in rejection…though not of him…but of ME! I moved out for a year and a half and upon moving back in told him point blank that I expect him to take some initiative. That was August 2007 and here it is almost August 2008…and…as I figured…not one crumb has he tossed my way. All the while insisting that our lack of intimacy is solely MY fault because I no longer "enable" him to kick back suppressing his feels and desire all the while expending negative energy while I put forth 200% effort with less than nothing to show for those efforts. Nice guys finish last…well I say non-involved, door-mice finish last. that is unless they have a crazy co-dependent partner that'll carry their weight over the finish line. Probably only come in 3rd or 4th even then. lol lol
All this talk of "nice guys" has made my over-active brain latch onto a song from my absolutely favorite comedience…the late…great…Bill Hicks. Track 15 on his Relentless album is truly appropriate to these discussions…and good for a little comedy relief at that. So I have uploaded the track for those of you who care to partake. I guarantee it'll set your toe to tapping and tickle your funny bone…if you still have one. I've used Turboupload.com to host the file. The link to download the approximately 4mb mp3 file is:
Don't get too worked up over the psycho-babble that is part of being human. As Bill stated many times…and I wholeheartedly agree with his assessment. "Humans are a Virus with Shoes". Bill's major philosophy always brings me back to center…when it's all more than you can bare… just remember…"It's Just a Ride"!
Keep the Flow…Been There—Done That!!!
I have plenty of problems with this issue too, but:
2 Stories:
I had a great girlfriend once. She was in good shape and took care of herself. She was nice. -But it turned out the sassiness never kicked in. -And she was 1-Dimensionally Nice.
After awhile, she was just too boring.
I think a MAJOR issue with the stereotypical "nice guy" is that he can become almost 1-Dimensionally nice, and turn bland instead of a guy who gets a girl fired up.
I worked at a café and this girl and her guy ordered. I made their stuff in normal time and stopped to mention something to a waitress in the otherwise empty place.
The girl at the table pipes up and says something nasty about the wait. I bring the drinks over, and as I'm walking away, I say "Bitch." under my breath.
Lucky me, the owner shows up and gets complained to 5 minutes later. In front of this girl, he asks me to apologize. I said, "I'll apologize to You for being petulant and unprofessional, but I'm not apologizing to an abusive customer."
I didn't get fired. ~10 days later, I go down the block to a bar. Guess who's tending that night? -The nasty girl from the shop. I have a couple and 3 weeks later, I find she'd not even charged my CC for the drinks; I had a receipt with no hit on my bank account.
=>SO: Sometimes, having either the conviction or the SE to speak your mind and stand your ground rightly, while saying 'F*** You' to the negative consequences that ~might come your way, could miff a girl in the short run, but after she's pissed about it for the first 48 hours, she'll probably RESPECT your strength.
But yes, I too have been brainwashed by Movies and TV and sometimes think the only way to succeed with people is to be Super Duper Nice 100% of the time.
Obviously, there's got to be a way to balance 1 extreme against all the criminal/antisocial aspects of another and be the best of both with none of the drawbacks.
That's just it. You are not being a nice guy genuinely. You are being a nice guy to get something from women. To be rewarded. This is why I do not like nice guys. They annoy me and I want nothing to do with them.
I do not date assholes either. Bad boys are not the type of men I date.
In essence, you nice guys are not that different from bad boys. Both groups act a certain way to gain something from women. No thank you. I will continue enjoying the single life.
hmmm…mb its true ,
I have been to searching on the internet of why nice guys finish last! The truth is it depends on the girl. I agree 100% you do need that balance of being nice and being a jerk. But be a jerk in a funny positive way. Basically like a cocky funny type cause honestly that's what really attracts women. Women want a nice guy but also part of them ( that they don't say or express) want a little bit of a bad boy a little spice so to speak. I to wish to find a nice girl out there (mostly the shy girls) but it's rare nowadays. I think to society has a reason behind this cause you hear most about sex all the time and how you should never be alone and only cute guys should date cute girl ect. That's why people should join activites or if you are in college try to join a faternity.
entertaining read with some elements of truth. but as we all know, women (humans) are dynamic creatures. how they look, act, feel, etc. one likes to get drunk in seedy bars, and another won't have a drop, and just wants to stay home and watch soap operas. so, the advice of this column could be true for one situation, but not another. the question is, what percentage of women will you score, and on what level? a quick shag? a lasting relationship? the rule of thumb is… and you can never say otherwise… you stand a 50/50 chance… heads or tails. period. be a prick. be a saint. depending on which way the wind blows will determine your fate. but you have to interact, make an attempt, and not be a lamp post. unfortunately gender roles still do exist, and for the most part, men have to make a play. my last g/f actually pursued me, which was brilliant. in terms of attitude (good vs. bad), i think we all fall in the middle, and situational moments dictate course of action. you can't be yourself 100% of the time. $0.02
and never forget… the sexes ARE different… fact of life
Oh, Jane if it were so simple, then all us nice guys would just say 'oh, that won't work then? I'll try something else'. I am not a 'nice guy' in order to get something out of anybody. I am a 'nice guy' because it's burned into the synapses of my brain since childhood. My parents were more worried that I'd grow up to be a smart ass and never noticed that I really didn't have much self esteem at all. I can't put the blame on them for my problems but my upbringing sure doesn't help.
When I read articles like this one I almost want to cry (yes, how wussy – but I actually I never cry) because I'm not sure I'll ever be able to change. Being nice and caring about everyone's opinion is who I am and who I've been for decades.
So, Jane, when I read a comment like yours that just makes light of the whole thing, I really get pissed off. Don't assume you know everything about everyone.
I think a lot of people are getting the wrong idea. Time to face reality (and perhaps state the obvious). Being a bad boy works simply because it communicates to women that you don't need them, and it keeps them entertained, and it will also show women that other woman want you. This is how a bad boy demonstrates value. But you don't need to be a bad boy to accomplish this. Think in simpler terms… The bleak picture painted by Darwin with his "survival of the fittest" theory is a reality. Power, money, good looks, high social status, entertainment skills, intelligence, etc., are favored by women in the mating game. Just being nice has no reproductive advantage at all, but neither does it hurt your chances with a woman, as long as you are being nice on your own terms, not her's (that would be considered weak, submissive, attributes you must avoid at all costs). You can be whoever you want to be, and as nice as you want to be, as long as you demonstrate value to women in some way. I think maybe "bad boys" are who they are because they have no other way to show value. It works. Fortunately, I also happen to believe that people somehow choose mates based on the extent of genetic similarity, so the equation is a bit more complex, but the basic theory still holds.
It's not about being bad or nice, it's about being -reasonable-. You wouldn't want anyone else to walk over you. I mean, honestly, are you willing to sit there while say..your mother or your friend (Guy) or coworker tells you sob stories about their ex?
Someone needs to initiate, and usually, that's the man. Fundamentally it's a violent and aggressive task; you aren't going to get anywhere just waiting. If the girl isn't going to make a move at a reasonable time, then you must. Have a gameplan in mind; if X amount of time passes and you don't progress, either you're not being aggressive enough or things aren't working right.
The key is to be aggressive- you back off when there is resistance, because no one wants to go to jail. You need to trust the girl to handle herself and know her limits, or what's the point?
Wow, thank you, there's this girl who I noticed like the same stuff I like I haven't not talked to her yet SO I might still have a chance, she really cute as well.
I read some of the posts and I think it is a great place! I like to flaunt my sure observer Do you want a joke? What goes "moof"? A cow with buck teeth.
Hello, thats article have opened my mind, thank you, every word you writted there is true
the nice guy in article still is wuss. In the end he says to say eww once in a while that is bullsheet. you do not write manuals on what to say. You say what you feel. Honesty is the key for relationship.
Hello, thats article have opened my mind, thank you, every word you writted there is true
Hello, thats article have opened my mind
girls r like shadow, that's the rule. if u follow her she'll run and vise versa. take care guys.
"That's just it. You are not being a nice guy genuinely."
Jane, a lot of guys are nice GENUINELY. Go downtown and all the men that you see. 90% of them are Genuinely nice.
This article really opens my eyes. I have been too nice, genuinely, and whenever I help someone with something I don't expect to have anything in return. Now I gotta change that… and this article is a pointer in the right direction.
Hey I can relate to the subject about being to nice. Good advice to those who think being nice will get them somewhere with women.
It's okay to be nice but not a door mat. It's not about being nice or being bad, It's about being yourself and believing in yourself.
It's about knowing that you are the author of your own life and what you think and believe about yourself…
i'm a 62 yr. old male who has been married for almost 40 yrs. now who was your proverbial nice guy. i was raised by my mother to be so.
i was shy almost paranoid around girls.(didn't mean i didn't like them because i did) my parents were abit anti social which stemmed over to myself and my other siblings. so basically had no frame of reference in relationships with girls. was alays considered to be the nerdy unconvientunal kind of guy. i make fun of it now about myself i was one of the original nerds. in jr. high a freind and i were the only ones that carried school bags and in the early 60′s that was a no no. but i just tell everyone now my freind and i were trend setters and just didn't know it. because if you don't have a book bag that cost at least $50. your the one committing a no no in todays school world.
ok, i'm rambling comes with being older .
was i the proverbial doormat yes, didn't want to be but was never the less. my jr. high school prom date was one that my sister setup for me . i wasn't planning on going at all but she had a freind that wanted to go so she promised that we could double date for the prom. my sister was a on the hot scale a #9 so she was far more popular than i was . it didn't make my life any easier i thought.
it wasn't until my senior year that a freshman girl(yep a freshman) started bringing me out of my shy shell (which was pretty thick at the time) then a second classmate a sophmore encouraged me. by the end of my senior year i was at least putting a foot outside that thick shy shell i had put up. a freind of mine set me up with of all things one of the hottest freshman girls (remember girls i told you that guys do that for their freinds. ) nice thing about it she actually liked me for who i was. even though i'm married we are still freinds today. no i didn't marry her. i had gone to the phillipine isles during the viet nom war and was there for 2 yrs. which after the first six months there i got a dear john letter from her . yes it hurt at the time . but it helped me to grow. unfortunatly i lost my virginity to a phillippino girl who really didn't care that much about me. i was drunk at the time . why was i drunk if i was such a nice guy one might ask . after the dear john letter i was crushed emotionaly and i started just not caring any more and decided to lose the nice guy for awhile. did i get layed more
because of it (no not really but did get some ) just lost interest in trying anymore.
by the time i got back to the states made an amazing discovery phillippino girls reactions to me were extremely different than american girls were and again i was relegated to the freind zone or
being like a brother. fortunatly i had reverted back to my nice guy format. ran around with a freind i had met at work and he and i got along well he had a girlfreind and she had a girlfreind that moved in with my freind. i lived just across the dtreet from them so occassionaly they came over. we all worked for the same company and during the same shift. still somewhat lonely but not quite as shy
i decided that on friday nights i would have a creature feature beer and wine fest as we watched videos we all got off work at about 11:30 at night and creature feature came on at midnite hour…..
i didn't know how many of my freinds i worked with would show up but hope a few . that nite i had almost to many people in my apt.
being that at the time i had no girlfreind i was able to save money and basically do what ever i wanted so i decorated my apt. to suite my taste. i lived on the coast and had visited this one restraunt and they had decor which i thought would be interesting to put in my apt.
i had fish netting strung from various places in my living room
with sea shells ,black light and very colorful pictures of seacreatures
all over the place. had a huge tv set which had a great picture tube and the color of the videos was great. between the wine ,beer ,and some dumb ass brought weed (oh,yeh that was my buddy ) i got pretty messed up that first friday. not quite sure how all this came about but some how my freinds girlfreind her girlfreind wanted or needed a ride home . i was just learning about girls body language and was aware that girls that constantl;y swirled the hair around their finger while talking to or looking at you were flirting with you subconsciencely. was sure about how to approach her so i just told her what i had heard about the hair thing and ask if it was true.(ya i was hoping it was true because she was a knock out in the looks department) her response was she was just nervous. didn't dawn on me that she was still interested in me . (thick headed i quess) anyways this went on for quite awhile and it seeemed i was giving her rides more often for some unknown reason(like how was i to know it was planned by my freind and his girlfreind.(ya gals thats what real freinds do for freinds) well i had another freind that worked at the same company and he and i got along fairly well . he was no doudt the biggest jerk i've ever met but for some reason a likeable jerk.(don't ask me to explain i don't see how someone that was a nice guy could like a jerk but i did) anyway one weekend he envited me over to fix his tv set which i knew how to and was surprised that it was a set up to introduce me to one of his ex girlfreinds down from another state (yep again gals thats what freinds do for freinds) this however was my future wife and now 40 years latter.
believe it or not she chased me i was the one unsure of if i wanted to get involved with her.
so in answer to your question do nice guys finish last , it depends on how you define last gals and guys. because what is defined as last by some might be first for some one else. the fact i didn't get married until i was 26 to a 24 yr.old and not straight out of high school as some of my classmates. yes i'm on classmates and many of them that
were the type of guys and gals then have been married 2 or more time and some in the dating process after another divorce. so answer is you get what you want by your life style people. you treat people badly you wind up being treated badly. thats why so many of you wind up getting involved with the wrong type of person and in so many divorces or break ups.
so take it from someone maybe alittle older than some of you that being a freind to some is a two way street if not your not much of a freind.
i'm also going to post how nice guys can get girls by reading body language and also know what body language of girls means that says don't bother me. and those that says come get me if you dare.
you know i hate it when someone says their trying to help a guy thats asking for help and they try to sell you their book while insulting you the whole time their doing it. their is free sites that has all this info . if i had known this info when in school i may have been abit more confident upon talking and relating to girls with out fear of rejection.
but see i had no freinds that made an effort to tell me these things.
now that i know them i realized one thing i thought i was a loser with the girls because i was nieve about what girls broadcasted in signals that i was unaware of. after finding out about it i thought i was dumb. no someone told me ,dumb means not having the capacity to learn different nieve however means has the capacity to learn and change upon knowing the info.
ok , guys if you want to know what you can do and know that you won't get shot down in flames for asking a girl out wouldn't hat bolster you confidence and courage to do so as many of these girls say her making the first move. if you really want to know do a ggogle search for girls/women body language . believe it or not there were girls in my school interested in me i just wasn't savy in the body language info you'll find on the web pages you'll read.
also to bad some ogf the girls don't give some of this info out to their supposed to be best freinds. hmmm… it might have actually worked out in their favor if they had.
I've heard all this before. And no one can tell me how to stop being so disgustingly nice. And I'm not just being nice to get something from women. I mean I am, but I really am nice and shy and I just can't approach them. All this pick up artist bullshit makes me so mad. None of it has been worth a shit to me. It's fucking hopeless.
I should just die.
I disagree.
I think instead you should WAKE UP and realize that using these skills that are taught here does not constitute a crime against humanity and that no one of any importance will think less of you for using them.
I too seem unable to approach women without a genuine excuse, but I still use these skills to flirt with the women I do meet and to build a connection. I'm still seen as a nice guy, I think, but with an edge.
I think you should go forth and playfully tease women in every way you can think of. I think you'll find that you will not be arrested nor prosecuted by the Police, nor will you get beaten up (lest the woman in question is a little bit on the psychotic side).
That's just what I think.
Recently stumbled upon this web.
I'll agree and disagree.
Agreed : Yes, it is no doubt, the act of being too nice is simply a turn off to majority of the women. For instance, complimenting her almost constantly, be there for emotional support, etc. While all this further underpin their status to reach to a "friend zone", sometimes, pulling back and playing around the bush is a better alternative.
*you get what I mean, not to obvious as to what dependant stalker do*
Disagree : However, everything has an exception. Be it human personalities and the way women ID thinks. I've met girlfriends, and via personal experiences, that sometimes the nature of a good guy can be taken as a sign of honour within them. Thus, a plus in making their way into a relationship.
Yes, think that I'm joking. But for anyone to say that, presumably have yet to meet the other kinds of girls. =)
Women can be scary haha!
Actually it is simpler than the article makes it out to be.
Nice guys get approach anxiety because, as the article correctly points out, they get blown off every single time. So naturally they develop a fear of failure, as they eventually come to view it as predetermined.
This is so true guys the nice guys never get the girl. I went from the cocky bad ass jerk who tons of girls were attracted to. To the no confidence nice guy who no girls are attracted to its so hard as I got older I got tons of spots and bags under my eyes I broke my nose and etc. I had girlfriends in the past really attractive ones at that. Now I cannot get a single girl since I lost my confidence and changed from the jerk to nice guy. It makes me feel so depressed I don't know why I lost all my confidence it sucks I wish I could change it and get a girlfriend again I have not had 1 in almost 3 years and Im 20 now=
I think a lot of nice guys have NO problem approaching women. Its more of a fear of rejection/failure thing. Just make it a rule that you have to say hi/make small talk with anyone that comes within 3 feet of you and your approach anxiety should diminish dramatically in a month or so…
[...] Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching Women [...]
Holy freakin *hit. Where the hell did you come from? Seriously if that is all I have been doing wrong with the nice guy crap then I have to say I am both pi**ed and relieved at the same time. I mean what the H**L!? Thank you for this little eye opener. Now a question I do have to ask is how far do you go being the flip side of NICE GUY DISEASE and when do you let the nice guy side come out again? I really need to know this so if you could write me back at firstname.lastname@example.com with the answer I would greatly appreciate it.
dont go being friends with her, and expect anything to be different down the line.
thats called sneakiness. just fucking deal with your shit as it comes, a partner is an added bonus to life, dont make them your life until your already set on your own path. otherwise you can only hurt as a result.
and about all this game stuff.just say what you say dont let any fucker get in your way. if youve built your life up enough and are faithful enough to your own needs, then you can meet anothers, but thats in thier eyes, you get different things from different people and thats for you to recieve, you must give yourself enough love before you can expect anyone else to receive. i have trouble approaching women, infact i think ive only done it a couple of times, the rest of the times were natural, and thats the way it should be. basically if you have to put on an act at all then it aint meant to be. just live your life and share some of that love for life with the worthy people. its fucking nature!! love is a part of nature, be in touch with your nature then you can make her flowers grow.
Man this is me in a heartbeat. Im 24 year old virgin and havent had a girlfriend at all. In the last 2 years or so ive started looking after myself and have started looking good actually. Im extremely nice and get on with the old people at my work. I think they see me as a child and are always nice to me. The girls that i do get along with see me as "Inocent" nice guy. But they dont know im a virgin. I think its just the way i carry myself. Im exactly the clone of Alan on "2 and a half men". Alot of people think im a playa cause i look good but im just your nerdy dude that has major approach/depession/anxiety issues. People say just be yourself but that doesnt work for some of us. If i be myself im never gonna get a girl. I havent ever approached a women and it doesnt look like it changing anytime soon which is utterly disgraceful. But me, like all of us, See the world how we see it and well i see it very negatively. People are qucik to judge me and say im gay without getting to know me. If i didnt look good then i wouldnt be getting judged. Id be just your normal "geek". But thats just who i am a computer nerd who spends his weekends on the PS3 or pc, That for the last year or so, looks real handsome.hah. But that doesnt transform me into this Suave man. And thats what people dont realise with me. Ive lived my life in isolation and sadness that it still lingers with me. And it aint going away anytime soon.
Sorry to post a novel sized post here. I just wish i could carry through with all these tips i read but i get so scared that i give up cause i rather not see the outcome. But it does hurt not having a girl after 24 years of life on this planet.
I hope none has to face the mental blocks ive put on myself. Its very stressful.
"He who hesitates, M?s?u?b?t?s!!
Wow, the pathology just spills out when the subject of the nice guy comes up. A lot of suffering and grief in this thread. The comments are all over the place. I'd suggest reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Dr Robert Glover to get a better handle on the syndrome. At least he provides some exercises to break free from this malaise.
Good luck everyone. Fixing nice guyness isn't about being mean. It's about detachment from outcome in situations and interactions with others.
this site is the BOSS
I agree with Alec, I think you can be nice while still being confident and assertive. It's all a balancing act I guess.
Thanks buddy. Awesome article you have here. Got some extra links to link to with more info?
Nice guys don't necessarily have to finish last. There is a fundamental difference between European and American women. In Germany for example, it is very easy to come across as too hardcore. A nice guy could go under the radar in that case when approaching, thus gaining the trust of the woman they want before conveying sexuality. The nice guy syndrome is more about conveying confidence and being dominant in general there
Are you the same Pheromone Kid that made the CD with Brad P?
See, for me living in Europe, that's something that's important to know.
Some interesting points, although if a a majority of women only respond to behaviour of this sort I would rather be single. I guess I am able to accept my own limitations….
I am a girl. I've dated a lot of guys, and I've dated 2 "nice guys" before. And I'm not with either one of them now. You want to know why? Just as those 'jerks' are over-sized hyperactive/abusive children, 'nice guys' are over-sized shy manchildren. It is frustrating to be with either one of them, because they are both immature, just in their own way. Maybe you will attract some equally immature woman, like a shy and coy overgrown girl, but it won't work with the rest of us mature women. I think nice guys want to be with some drop-dead gorgeous gamer chick or something but that's honestly not going to happen. And then there are those nice guys who are so worried about their virginity and want to get laid but are to shy to talk to girls, honestly, they're just barking up the wrong tree. I'm fed up with nice guys because they allow you to walk all over them and then if they do something wrong, they won't talk about it like a responsible adult. They will avoid the topic or just allow you to punish them or whatever *sigh*… Btw they never asked me out, I asked them out because I knew them. And that would be the theme for the rest of the relationships… Me doing all the work, talking, etc. It was fun at first, in the beginning for like 5 minutes, but then it was frustrating, it was like they were scared of me? And they had such an opportunity but it went over their heads… Honestly I just want to dispel the myth that we only want "bad boys." But on the same note, "nice guys" are not the other immediate option. There are plenty of other, socially mature men who don't fall under "bad boys" or "nice guys." My reasoning is: sort yourself out before connecting with people. Relationships don't magically solve all your problems. If anything, they will magnify some. The fallacy of this article is to give some tips to help some guys overcome their "niceness." It won't work with a few words. They have to grow up. Think, do you really really want a woman now? If you don't, then don't pressure yourself to. When the right time comes, I think you will know what to do. And trust me, there are plenty of women who would settle for ANY guy, yet most guys have trouble settling for ANY girl. Some of you may read this and think I come across as a bitch for not giving those guys a chance, but I have to say that I gave them enough of a chance. Relationships aren't built solely on patience and slow crawls to motivation. There is a lot of work involved from both sides. I blame it on the feminization of our society which allows women to maximize their power over men. When women mope about wanting "mr. perfect" trust me, "mr. nice guy" does not pop into their head. Think about that.
I never get anywhere with girls. I am good looking, tall, well dressed but it is absolutely useless to me because the moment I choose a girl or show I like her a lot she spits at me. Girls give me looks, stand close to me, choose me all the time, that's OK, but I'm not allowed to choose them. I just think "yeah, yeah, if I actually do anything you'll suddenly change and get the Police or something" I pretty much ignore them all now and wander around alone.
The world is mad, the whole world is running in reverse. There is no such thing as being too nice or caring about a girl too much, a normal girl would respond to that and both would be happy. The reason I think is the world is operating on a system opposite to logic and God, hate. So whenever you like a girl, the response is to reject you because she is not looking for a "son of God" (God is love) she is looking for a "son of the devil", hate. The devil is just the "liar", the false thinking in peoples faulty brains. I think when Adam and Eve failed everything flipped to the opposite of normal.
Everything was now against Adam, animals, weeds, girls! I think most people are like the weeds, with faulty brains. If you are a normal boy (or girl), good luck finding a normal girl! (or boy) In the hate system there is slave and master, so the girl wants to be dominated by a tough boy pig and there has to be friction all the time. It's fun! But any man with confidence is delusional, everyone is crap, and any girl who is deceived by him. And anyone who wants to dominate girls has something wrong with his brain.
In the love system there is no ranking, all are equal, girls are equal, so when a man reveres a girl and treats her as equal, she thinks he is nothing. If he treats her as he should, and honors her by putting her first, she then wants to dominate him and destroy him, one has to be the slave.
Thanks for your thoughts Gigi, it lets me know I'm on the right track when I hear stuff like that!
Kudos, Gigi. Good post.
I agree (mostly) with Gigi, apart from the bit about society being overfeminised. The problem is that the sexes arn't balanced in the right way either way – you get forced into extremes, or extremes forced on you. Don't give up the ghost, girls and boys, after only about 200 years of feminism! Long way to go yet.
Basically, be who ever the hell you want to be, and don't give in just because you might end up single at the end of it. Just be honest with people, be open to change and criticism, sometimes just go crazy, and you will at least have a lot of friends wirth having, and who knows there may be someone for you. If you like to play games, play games. If you don't, don't. But don't see playing games when you never wanted to as having learned – it's just a compromise.
Sorry, after posting I noticed Antony's comment.
This is utter bullshit: Why the hell can't you just talk to someone, or ask them for a date or whatever? You might end up only friends at the end of it, but what you're describing seems utterly distinct from this. It's a load of sexist rubbish to have this kind of attitude to men or women. Stop thinking your owed something by somebody, and just be yourself. Of course it is an easy thing to fall into – I'm sure lots of people have felt like this – but come on snap out of it. Go and do some hedge planting or something useful, get other things in your life, meet a load of people, find someone you seriously like, ask them out, see how it goes, if they don't want a relationship then stay friends. Just don't get bitter. Easy to state, now the hard part: GO AND DO IT.
[...] Source: http://approachanxiety.com/2007/03/why-the-nice-guy-fears-approaching-women/ [...]
[...] Originally Posted by DerekB Like I said earlier, I'm the nice guy that most everybody likes. Its just that none of them "like-like" me. Lots of things have been written about the "nice guy" phenomenon. Here is one I liked: Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching Women | Approach Anxiety [...]
[...] Originally Posted by DerekB I'm the nice guy that most everybody likes. Its just that none of them [women] "like-like" me. Lots of things have been written about the "nice guy" phenomenon. Here is a page I liked: Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching Women | Approach Anxiety [...]
Being too nice was how I started. I remember using the nice guy approach and asking for a phone number right off the bat, like she owed it to me or something There is nothing sexy about that. I think it's always best to carry sexiness in ones approach. The teasing stuff is pure confidence which IMO is sexy
This is totally me TOTALLY lol, 1 girl from 3rd world in my 40 years alive lol any time i ever go up to a woman i turn them off imediately no matter how much they wanted me before, i just learnt to forget about women the best i can and use porn when i cant, its just pointless trying to get women when your this underconfident might as well just try your best to forget and when im old i will hopefully loose my desire for women lol. thanks for putting what i am into words its nice to know im not the only one and its nice to know what is turning the women off so quickly
[...] monospace; cursor:pointer; padding-right:5px;} .hilite { color: #fff; background-color: #f93; } Approach Anxiety » Why the Nice Guy Fears Approaching WomenHot Alpha Female » Blog Archive » What Really Holds Men Back From Attracting [...]
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The nice guys….he he he
This is often a cover up for approach anxiety for sure…
The amount of time I have heard friends saying that they do not want to bother girls by approaching them can not even be counted….And most of the time those guys are the shy and insecure ones…
The friends I have that are funny, outgoing and self confident rarely see it as bothering the girl when they chat up a girl…
Same experience but two completely different views on it….and each view are anchored in their personal experiences and fears…
David, pua coaches were made for people like you. I'd suggest a few sessions just to find out where you are going wrong. Often these things are just about the subconscious signals that you send out, and a combination of coaching and cognitive-behavioural work can sort these problems out. I'd suggest looking for a pua coach with a background in psychology.
Sorry, but I don't think a "nice guy" is someone who is "unconditionally nice", to everyone. There is a difference between nice and doormat. An assertive man is attractive because he treats you right, but he is not afraid of confrontations. An aggressive man has always been a turnoff (for me at least, but then again, I must admit that many girls go out with men that treat them like crap).
I just don't understand why some guys consider that being assertive mean "just to discuss with her from time to time". I like a man who corrects me if I'm wrong when I'm wrong. I wouldn't like a guy who would try to belittle me just to be badass. But then again, if someone suffers from "niceguyism", maybe they need that practice, BUT…
But then again, if you are a doormat, you not only have a problem with girls. You will have a problem with many other people. You shouldn't let girls abuse you, but you shouldn't let others abuse you. If you are ALWAYS nice, if you always avoid confrontation, then sometimes you won't stand your ground when you are needed.
I just mean that I love good people. But my definition of "good" is people who don't hurt others and don't let others hurt them. Both parts are equally important. And they are needed for all aspects of life. Treating your partner/spouse as a human being, praising his virtues and calling them out on their defects is not "badddish". It's the goddamned right thing to do. My husband will scold me if I leave the lights on. I will scold him if he works for hours under sunlight without using the sunscreen I bought for him. But there is a way of doing that without bitching. You can get serious without bitching.
I don't know, maybe a working couple just requires two reasonable people who like to be treated well, to treat the other well, and to be told about their defects when they need to (because you partner, yes, is also there to scold you when you are lazy or doing things wrong).
I just think the concept of "nice guy" is perverted in itself, or maybe it doesn't equal good. A guy (or girl) who's 100% nice, all of the time, even when abused, is not a good person. And they don't look attractive.
Women don't want nice guys? Good! I just read the paper EVERYDAY
about the Mr. Wonderfuls who beat the crap out of these women,
who passed up the "boring" nice guys. Women really get what they deserve. Isn't that great?
@dave I am sure you are right. Either men are wife beaters or they are obsequious, subservient, and spineless. Is that what you meant?
Dave uses ignorance! It's not very effective
Lee uses sarcasm! It's super effective!
I kid, but in all seriousness in your scenario (technically) men like you have failed women and are now left to a future filled with wife beaters. Unless of course you admit to being a woman abuser….
I am (was) the guy that the mothers all LOVED,but the daughters had no use for me ( no not a woman beater,I never got close enough),
since I never got very far and was tossed out of the "game". I never had
anyone one to fail. There must be an "in between" in there somewhere, and I applaud both Lee and Scott for trying to find it. I just ran out of effort for what still seems so impossible.
Since I gave up the pretense, I am much happier and just live my life,and I have heard all of the labels. Good luck,though!
Dave, are you trying to get with her mom? Further why did her mom like you? Perhaps its because she doesn't see you as a threat…hence not likely to get her dear daughter to give it up ya know? What do I know, hell maybe your "don't give a shit attitude" will work better for you. Fortune favors the bold man get out there and live.
@dave No one who regularly posts on this site wants you to quit. There are a few coaches who occasionally post here for whom coaching is a primary source of income. The rest of us post here because we went through a transformation that we want other men to experience as well. Nothing makes us happier than a success story. With that in mind, let me ask you where you failed? Were you able to approach women and start conversations? Or was that something you couldn't do? –Lee
i was too a nice guy. Being nice guy is not a bad thing but being shy is a huge setback for approaching girl. So, I took some steps to get rid of my shyness & be popular to girl & I succeed. Watch the videos in youtube, you will too be lucky like me.
Nice post Eric. I know I'm not the nicest person, but when it comes to a girl I'm infatuated with I try to show her a completely different me. I will def keep this in mind and learn to risk it more.
Thank You.
great post,keep up the good work
Sad how some people commenting like to muster up knee-jerk responses and gang up on others for simply having an opinion.
Anyhow, i personally appreciate the author's insight into the matter.
I'm not sure that fear (as in being scared) is the issue here. As I see it, women typically (for whatever reason) portray themselves to be unapproachable. If that's the general premise, then I believe that an attempted approach would probably be met with rejection & psychological smackdown. I think that if one sees that kind of result coming, one might be inclined to just leave it alone and save himself some more aggravation.
I think that this dynamic is more a product of some guys who are too demoralized want to run the gauntlet one more time (yes, that's me; I admit it).
In my humble opinion, I see this as cutting one's losses after too many failures, which is decidedly different from being scared, or feeling dread, foreboding, or angst.
Thanks for the post, Lee! I was allegedly a good conversationalist on
a variety of topics. Never really had to "approach", just lived my life, and
am really blessed to live the life I have.
Figure that I could survive the first date without insulting her or making
her ill and then be sentenced to the friend zone. The "book" says that
I did it correctly, but there was no attraction for her. Nobody's fault, just
life. Probably needed more of an "edge", as the book would say. I was so bad at it, it is just a relief not to have to think about it anymore.
How old are you, dave? And what is it that you've given up on? Is it finding a wife? Or finding an attractive woman? Or dating?
Good post man… I was exactly the same way in high school and I still am now… Dating a girl now that I asked if something was wrong because she didn't talk to me in 2 days and suddenly thats a huge turnoff… I guess I need to start acting like a fkin db
because of the women being such of the LOW LIFE that they really are, make it so hard for us men that are looking to meet a good woman today. they are so very hard to talk too, and have a very BAD ATTITUDE PROBLEM TOO. that is why many of us men don't approach women, in fear of rejection as well.
@so very true
Why would you fear rejection by women who, according to you are low lives and have attitude problems? Wouldn't those be the women whose judgement you'd least fear? It should be the easiest thing in the world to approach women when you don't actually want them and there is nothing at stake, no?
there are just so many women that do not know how to act with men. to them, it is like a game. i am one of many men out there that does not play games. i am very serious, because i hate going out as it is. i see so many other men getting rejected by women as well. it is very true, many women today are such A LOW LIFE. especially when they seem to enjoy SLEEPING AROUND with so many different men, and god forbid if they can just stay with ONLY ONE MAN. it seems that so many of these type of women are just FILTHY WHORES. i hate repeating myself, but like i have just said, if only these women could just STAY WITH ONLY ONE MAN, that would make more sense. don't you agree? years ago, women were certainly much more EDUCATED. so without a doubt, it was a lot easier meeting women back then. since the times have changed, so have the women. back then, i do have to say that women were much more COMMITTED to men. that explains why, our parents and grandparents were married SO LONG.
Your rant makes no sense to me. On the one hand, you say women are whores, which implies they say yes too much. On the other hand, you also say that women love to reject men, which implies they say no too much. Can you not see the contradiction? The difference between our time and the time of our grandparents, is that women have romantic and sexual choice. Sex is good, dude. The only reason women should give up sex with multiple partners is if they find one that is much more attractive than the rest. Are you sure you're not just pissed because you don't know how to be that guy? Do you have trouble getting past the approach and really offering women something more than just your desire to get a wife, some kids, and home cooking?
i do have to agree with the other guys that say, women are very hard to meet. i have noticed that many of them are very nasty to start a conversation with , and they certainly have a very bad attitude as well. there are many of us straight guys that are looking to meet a good woman today, especially that we are very serious and not into the games that they are playing. i myself, have experienced bad luck with women. not my fault, that many women are so nasty now. by the way Lee, you seem to be such an expert on women. so what is the problem? like i have mentioned before, i get rejected by women a lot. i am not an ugly guy, i am a very clean person as well. i live down the shore, and most of the women are without a doubt stuck up bitches. they think that their shit don't stink, and since i am in my late fifties, meeting women has become more difficult for me. i was married at one time, and was a very caring and loving husband that never cheated on her. but the filthy whore did cheat on me. i was very committed to her, and loved her very much. i was a one woman man at the time, knowing what i had at home and did not have to go out looking for it anymore. now that i am alone and single again, it sure sucks for me. when i see so many other men that were very lucky to have met the right woman for them, and have a family, it hurts me a lot. i always wanted to have it as well. the men and women today that have each other, should go to church to pray, and thank god very much for what they have. it is the men like us that are hurting very bad now. this is why i go out every single night not to be home by myself, since i have no one to stay home too. now i just go out and hope for the best.
"i do have to agree with the other guys that say, women are very hard to meet."
That's a total misquote of Brian Ferry, Roxy Music. He actually said "The interesting thing is – you never really meet people your own age who aren't married.'
Pls note the qualifier!
Consequently, his new wife Amanda Sheppard is just 29.
And he's right! That also perfectly reflects my personal experience.
I don't know why girls don't like you. There could be a million reasons. If you were willing to tell us how you dress, how you open, how you transition to a flirty conversation, how you push women into the hot zone, how you take contact info, how you text, and what you do on your dates, I will give you a thorough analysis. There is nothing wrong with being "clean", but if you're choosing to mention that as one of your primary attributes, you are probably not giving the women you meet a fun, unique, and compelling romantic experience.
Women are indeed hard to meet. There is no question of that. I do not go to bars or clubs due to the fact I do not drink and I am going deaf. I also am 43. (strike one) Other advice I have seen is join clubs etc.. Well, I am a member of a local art association photo arts group and all but one woman are much older. The one not older is my age but married. (strike two) I do not have many close friends as the ones I had got married and moved away. So I go out with the photo arts group on shoots, alone on shoots, and with cousins to hockey games. Never meet women or even see any single women period. I have never been one for superconfidence nor do I wish to be. I am generally a quiet man and not very gregarious either due to my upbringing as an only child. Also as an only child I learned to entertain myself at an early age. Therefore I do not believe it is my responsibility to entertain a woman. Entertain each other yes but never the other way. (strike three I suppose) . So as you can see it is indeed nigh on impossible to meet women.
I have to agree with you. With the lifestyle choices you have made, you will have a very hard time meeting women. If you are unwilling to ask what you can change about your life to meet women, there's nothing to left to talk about. You are exactly where you've decided to be.
I fail to understand your comment. I love photography why would I give up the group? I am not where I want to be but that's life. By the way most the friends I have had were women. Some were interested in more but because I couldn't believe it was possible the opportunities evaporated and so did the women. I even had four twenty somethings interested in me in the past year. Same result. Now nothing. I guess it is punishment for missing all those opportunities. I also fail to see how this could change.
You tell us that you don't want to be more confident. You tell us that you are not very gregarious by nature and therefore don't believe it is your responsibility to entertain women. You tell us that in your current lifestyle, you "never meet women or even see any single women period". Dude, these are all choices you've made. If you don't want these things to change, they won't. I, on the other hand, am six years older than you. I am also not very gregarious by nature, also an only child. I don't drink and therefore don't go to loud party bars. I have worked on myself and my lifestyle so that now, I am surrounded by more women than I know what to do with. You have to understand that everything that you are telling us is working against you is a choice. You want to go to a photo club where there are no attractive women? That's a choice. You want to live a lifestyle where you don't see any single or available women? That's a choice. You don't want to do something to make yourself more confident? That's a choice. I have made an entirely different set of choices. You are exactly where you've decided to be and I predict things won't change.
JT–where are you? Are you in a city, or have access to a city? Can you go to galleries, or museums, or other art-related societies that are more mixed-age?
Photography (as any of the visual arts–or the arts in general) offers tons of opportunities to meet women.
Also, JT–if you know that over the last year at least 4 20-something are into you, well, no reason why that should change this year. So focus some of your attention on being more responsive when you do get the signals–great advice here for that.
Thanks. Makes sense.
I could join all the photo groups but the make up could be the same. Besides where would I find the time to attend them all between work, gym three nights a week and hockey games during that season. Surrounded by women huh? You obviously have something else going on you are not saying. Has to be a special reason. As for confidence, not all men can have super confidence because we are all different. Just like women. For women to expect that men become carbon copies of one another is ludicrous. Men and women should be accepted as they are with all their faults. Guys that have that superconfidence have it because women threw themselves at them to begin with. This one I know for a fact as I had friend for years who had this. I saw firsthand the ego this created and how women became disposable to him. This is why I believe superconfidence is unnecessary. I will not lower myself to be that kind of man. I am only somewhat confident but it suits me. Egomania doesn't. If you are wondering about the gym. There are attractive women there but most women there are jersey shore types and unworthy of any attention from me. I live in ri and there are not many options to meet women here. So to sum up what you said yeah I am screwed. I would like to have a woman in my life and a family of my own but because I refuse to be a cookie cutter man the odds are extremely slim. Btw. Notice that I do not berate or hate women. Nor will I do so as the women I have gotten close to have been great to me.
I never had that natural confidence you talk about. Women never threw themselves at me. When I was your age, I took a workshop that opened my eyes to the possibilities. With some success came more confidence, and with more confidence, more success. Your argument – that people should be accepted for who they are – makes sense if people are also happy with what they have. Meaning, if I love food that makes me fat and being fat makes me less attractive to women, you wouldn't really argue that I should expect women to overlook that I am fat, would you? It is I who should accept that I have made a lifestyle choice that makes me less attractive to women. Just as it is you who should accept that where you live, your interests, your insistence that you shouldn't be expected to change are all factors that limit your choice with women.
Ok. What you say makes sense. I have made a couple of changes. One: joining a photo arts group. Two: losing thirty pounds and working out three times a week. Beyond that I wouldn't know where to begin changing to meet women.
If you have successfully lost thirty pounds, you have done something that is as difficult to do as it is to get better with women. Think about what it took. You changed your diet. If you eat three meals every day, it means you changed your behavior for at least an hour and a half every day. If you went to the gym three times every week and spent an hour there and half an hour of travel time, it means you've changed your behavior for four and a half hours every week. You probably read some literature on what it takes to lose weight or how to exercise. And maybe you even hired a personal trainer. This is the kind of commitment you will have to make to getting better with women.
Is it worth it? To me, there are three pillars of a full, rich life – personal, family, and work. Having a desirable woman in my life fully overlaps two of those. Family also covers my relatives, so only part of that is my own family, the quest for my own wife and children. And not all of my personal life is social. Some of it is reading, movies, hobbies, etc. Nevertheless, I would guess that my satisfaction with my romantic life is responsible for about a third of my overall satisfaction with my life. That's a heck of a lot, and if you're like me, you're leaving a lot of happiness on the table if you don't address that need.
So, how far should you be willing to go to achieve happiness in one third of your life? Suppose that the rest of my life is perfect and I determine that certain elements of my life are obstacles to being 50% happier – in other words, I am two thirds as happy as I can be. How far would I go to change things? Pretty damn far. I would move, take up a new hobby, change how I dress, learn how to approach women, etc. I may even sacrifice some part of my life to make this happen. In other words, say I make a decent salary but have no desirable women in my life. I might forego a big promotion to make more time to meet women. This is not irrational. We're talking about a third of my happiness!
You want actual suggestions for what steps you should take? I will gladly weigh in.
Please do. Suggestions would be helpful. Thanx.
I've heard anti-nice-guy essays, rants, and random postings from a variety of different perspectives, and this seems to be one of the less derogatory ones, with a nicer(ha), more rational community backing it up. But it still has the fundamental problem that all the others had…. a failure to define exactly what a "nice guy" is. Is a "nice guy" the pathetic, out of shape little doormat who constantly tries to be friendly with every women nearby, but secretly harbors dreams of rape, as is claimed elsewhere? Is it a person with good intentions who is simply to much of a coward to take an approach that puts him out of his comfort zone? Is it someone who is dedicated to some utilitarian code of ethics, perhaps handicapped by deception, deliberate or otherwise, of his moral calculus? Is it just someone who wants to be kind to others?
Defining "nice guy" is critical, or else one runs the risk of missing the intended audience, or even of some particularly nasty equivocations.
I have a way about me that gets women interested, but I don't know how to push it, whats the first thing I should say that would also let them know I'm interested? It's always seemed unclassy to me to just "go for it" I've done the whole "chat them up" thing but afterwards I back down since I wasn't really being myself and my sole purpose was to get them interested. This all seems like shit to me. I'd rather be a good person and make a girl happy. Thats always been the greatest reward to me. Sex is disposable but it's a necessity.
i am a straight man that had been married at one time myself, and it has become so hard to meet another woman again for me. and yes i most certainly have to agree, that many women today have such a rotten attitude problem. it is without a doubt, very hard to start a conversation with them. they just will walk away from me, and this of course makes me feel very bad. i know for a fact that i did not do anything wrong on my part to cause this to happen to me, that is for sure. the problem today is that many of the women now must have come from very abusive relationships with the men that they have been with at one time. i live down the shore, and let me tell you that the women have that shit don't stink of an attitude, and this is what i mean about them having the attitude problem that i have mentioned to you. many women now think that they are all that, and that will make it even harder to connect with them. many women down here are certainly lesbians as well, adding to the problem more. years ago, the women were much more educated, unlike the garbage that many of them now have become. do you really expect me to take the blame for so many low life loser women now?, of course not. so many women today, need to be much more educated and should read a book on how to talk too men much better, and who knows, this might make them much more smarter than they are now. after all, miracles can happen. and just maybe, the good women can connect with the good men like us that are looking.
Lee – Thanks for your very relevant comments. I got out of the "game" very early, nobody's fault, just because I was so bad at it. Years
and years later, I can read what people say about male-female relationships and know that I could never have said the right things, said the clever, magic phrases.
As it happens, God gave gave me a great life, more charity-oriented
and very satisfying, but I
Lee – Thanks for your very relevant comments. I got out of the "game" very early, nobody's fault, just because I was so bad at it. Years
and years later, I can read what people say about male-female relationships and know that I could never have said the right things, said the clever, magic phrases.
As it happens, God gave gave me a great life, more charity-oriented
and very satisfying, but I did grow up believing that I could be a
good husband and father. It sounds like you caught this early, and changed yourself into what you needed to be!
since we are living in different times today, so have the women changed. years ago, many women were certainly a lot easier to meet. many women now have high paying jobs, and they are making a lot more money than so many men. that certainly changed their attitude for the worse, since many women feel as though they do not need a man in their life anymore. back then, women and men accepted one another for who they were. there were so many poor paying jobs at the time, and so many men and women had to struggle to make ends meat. this i believe really has a lot to do with it. today it seems women want it all, they are looking for men that make a lot of money. i consider these women today such of a LOW LIFE. today many women can't accept a man for himself, and like i mentioned before, they are going for the men that are RICH. there are many of us men that DO NOT make the kind of money, that many other men are making now. and it seems that so many women just can't STAY WITH JUST ONLY ONE MAN ANYMORE, like they did in the past. i have certainly NOTICED MYSELF how so many women today have a VERY BAD ATTITUDE PROBLEM, and now many of them THINK THAT THEY ARE ALL THAT. but sad to say, many of these women are LOSERS by acting this way. when it is time for us to pass on in life, i guess a lot of these women would want there money thrown in the COFFIN WITH THEM.
I enjoyed this post a lot, but it's painful at the same time to be faced with the facts of my personality
I can see that there are a few experts in the comments, so could someone please give me any tips on how to get my moodset straight on approaching women.
It used to be so easy, but now I have to gather every bit of confidence to just to talk to one and often I end up approaching no one at all
Big Nick – Please do not fall into the "they all hate me trap"! Look ahead to things that YOU really doing and look forward to doing them with someone else. What changed from when this was easy?
You made some decent points there. I checked on the
web to find out more about the issue and found most people will
go along with your views on this website.
I think this base on European standard.what do you say about Africa standard if Lot of women are undergoing starvation and poverty? If you provide for them "do you think they will not love you for it?
@ Morris – in poor cultures, economic security is a strong incentive for a woman to get close to a man who can provide. Note however that buying her affection with things just means she likes the things the guy buys her, it does not necessarily mean she likes the guy.
In such environments the approach scenario is very different; social circle plays a much bigger role in meeting women. There is usually much social stratification in such societies, with the rich preferring to meet other rich or well to do; the middle class is small , and a large underclass pretty much takes what it can get from the mass of similarly poor people.
Within a middle up or well to do social circle, what is discussed in the post does pretty much apply; the basic rules of male – female attraction are the same across most cultures
Mr "Disco".
Going over your litany of nice guy transgressions from your past, I wouldn't so much categorize them as 'nice'. You say it's a symptom of compulsive people pleasing when in reality, as it is with most 'nice guys' bitching and moaning about how little pussy they get from all the hard work and manipulation it entails, it's actually just lying to get what you want. It's resentment and fear of women who don't want to sleep with men who want to "help them"… or whatever you think a "nice guy" does.
Adding childish, random insults to remind her that you're neither a 'Pussy' nor a 'Nice Guy' and in fact, have now been elevated to 'Empowered Guy?" No, dude. You just make no sense. Here's what women want; between a guy who's choosing to be mean and one pretending to be 'nice' (and really, you were pretending by acting out whatever human gestures get categorized as nice) we'll take neither! Because we don't like dicks, you're right, and also because we don't want to feel lied to or pacified. Know what's creepy? Thinking someone is 'nice' and discovering they think that's a weakness. Or, they think acting nice will get them pussy and turn decidely 'mean' when they find out otherwise.
Any dude on here calling himself a Nice Guy is actually quite manipulative- a smart woman will see through it. You pay attention to her? You follow whatever rules for asking questions or other ridiculous things on here, you pretend you care to get her to like you? That's not nice. You can't congratulate yourself for acting out human gestures of interest and compassion and hope she falls for it and fucks you.
You may have missed the moment in actually relevant media last month, but guys who call themselves Nice Guys are universally considered otherwise.
Because in the end, giving yourselves titles that invariably vilify women who don't give you what you want is just lame, and pussy, and totally transparent on dates. My boyfriend does all those things you tell men NOT to do- risk their masculinity, power and situational upper-hands. He avoids conflicts AND has a backbone. Plus he spanks me and calls me a dick when I deserve it. He's an actual nice guy, and know what? He's the last person to call himself one, and thinks it's creepy when other guys do.
Ms. "NF" – I really tried to understand your essay, but I imagine that I missed the point. First of all, "nice guys" do not even play. They are out of your "game" completely, which DEMANDS that males jump through the hoops.
It is YOUR attiitude that makes Disco so necessary, or an army of other guys would not even bother with this. And Disco goes through all of this to convince "nice guys,(?)" that women are worth approaching?
[...] aren't so good within the offline world. Take these tips in this article and employ these to have success with females now. Have fun with online dating and finding the woman for you [...]
An old post but pretty much still relevant to newbies out there who need to get this sort of thing handled.
Nice article Disco. I recommended this to a student of mines a day ago!


text:
HENRICO, VA (WWBT) - Today we are paying it forward at Henrico's Imperial Plaza in an audience with "the president."
A viewer says his strength of character and compassion for the impoverished and infirm merit 12 on Your Side's Act of Kindness.
See the video at right for more.
Copyright 2011 WWBT NBC12. All rights reserved.
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
When Heroes Season 4 begins, we know that Peter Petrelli (Milo Ventimiglia) has returned to the life of a paramedic, saving lives one person at a time. From the Season 4 trailers, we also know that Peter saves someone, a woman, from a car accident. Could this blonde woman in these Heroes set pictures be that mysterious woman?
Back at Comic-Con, Milo said this about the Season 4 Peter:
"He's seen it all. He's got a lot more humor about it. Nothing's new to him. If someone comes to him swinging, he's going to swing back harder."
More pics over at JustJared.


text:
Route Guide - iPhone / Android - Partners - Forum - Photos - Deals - What's New - School of Rock
Routes Sorted
L to R R to L Alpha
This area consists of the notch separating the Decadent Wall from the Upper Breadloaves. There are a handful of fun, short, and moderate routes. Climbing here is more mellow, with all the lines being traditional and lacking fixed anchors.
Getting There
Approach from the east or west. Park in the large, west-side parking lot or the small pull-out east of Bloody Fingers. Hike the the gap between formations.
Climbing Season
4 Total Routes
The Classics
Browse More Classics in Bloody Fingers Corridor
Mountain Project's determination of some of the classic, most popular, highest rated routes for Bloody Fingers Corridor:
Intruding Dike 5.7 5a 15 V+ 13 MVS 4b Trad, 1 pitch, 110'
Featured Route For Bloody Fingers Corridor
Intruding Dike 5.7 5a 15 V+ 13 MVS 4b ID : City of Rocks : ... : Bloody Fingers Corridor
This really good route climbs the nice looking finger and thin hands crack left of Hough's Crack on the north face of the breadloaves. Probably one of the most popular routes at the City, and with good reason.Climb the obvious steep and lovely crack - easier than it appears. Chickenheads abound on the upper section....[more] Browse More Classics in ID
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Songwriters: Eric Church, Jeff Hyde, Ryan Tyndell
This is easily my favorite Eric Church single to date – which, for a song built around a Bruce Springsteen namedrop, is saying a lot.
Like the masculine version of Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw," "Springsteen" connects its narrator's musical hero with memories of a loved one from the past. Far from leaning on empty cliché phrasing, "Springsteen" is full of little details – vivid, beautiful, instantly relatable details. As Church wistfully recollects a romanctic encounter from the days of his youth, he walks us through the night's happenings, and wonders if his old flame ever thinks of him when she hears that old Sprinsteen tune. He constructs surface-level imagery in such a way that it connects to the underlying emotions, thus supplying color to the lyrical vignettes instead of presenting a black and white template. That's what brings the song to life, and makes it something that we as listeners can actually feel instead of just hear.
And that arrangement! The light percussion and piano sounds subtly cool, and different from the typical country radio fare – openly nodding to The Boss's own musical stylings, while maintaining enough restraint to avoid becoming a distraction. Church ties the whole package together with his authentic, lived-in vocal delivery, finished off with some darn near haunting whoa-oa-oas as the song reaches its end, making for a deliciously addictive listening experience.
More of this please, Chief!


text: WOW. What can I say. As someone (I'm 37) who grew up on Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, Dokken, etc. and heard their message, CREED gives us GREAT MUSIC with a message that's POSITIVE. I honestly believe life sucks, but at least I don't feel like blowing my brains out (I had a friend that did that). GOD is PARAMOUNT with CREED and they do give a message of FAITH. I like their dark songs, too, for that's great at times…CREED still taps into WHITE ANGST. Keep it up.


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Melanie J. Rice
Melanie Rice has contributed to The Metropolitan as a staff photographer since summer 2012. She is majoring in convergence journalism with a focus on photojournalism and social documentary. Melanie plans to graduate in 2018. When she's not shooting for The Metropolitan, she enjoys creating street and art photography.
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