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Derby News Network Power Rankings - May 2010
|2010 1-0
2009 7-2
|After sitting at #2 following the 2009 WFTDA Nationals, Gotham edges back into the top slot with the help of a rout of Charm City, 201-75.
|2010 4-0
2009 12-0
|5/15 @ Boston
|Oly's performance against Charm City was enough to solidly win but not enough to keep them from being nudged out by Gotham on triangulation. They'll go up against Rocky Mountain this month in a rematch of the 2009 Western Regional championship match.
|2010 3-0
2009 11-2
|5/8 @ Denver
|No action or movement since last month, but they get it on with both #4 Denver and #5 Rocky Mountain in a weekend that has the potential to reshape -- or solidify -- the top 5.
|2010 1-0
2009 12-3
|5/8 vs Texas
|Steamrolled FoCo by the alarming total of 391-14 this month, but get a much more interesting challenge in the form of Texas on May 8th.
|2010 3-0
2009 8-7
|5/9 vs Texas
|Easily rolled over Duke City 215-47 early in April; like crosstown rivals Denver, they get an opportunity to move up with a (closed) bout against Texas on May 9.
|2010 3-1
2009 5-3
|5/15 vs Rat City
|Very impressive teamwork against Charm City lifted them to a big halftime lead, but an evenly matched second half leaves them just below the elite level.
|2010 4-0
2009 5-7
|5/15 @ Rose City
|Undefeated in 2010, they'll go up against Rose City in what's sure to be a thriller of a Pacific Northwest showdown on May 15.
|2010 2-3
2009 9-2
|5/16 @ Detroit
|Didn't have too much trouble with a tough Boston team in April, 137-52, and retains their slot.
|2010 0-0
2009 10-2
|WCR is the only top ten team without any 2010 action so far, but their history shows they're unlikely to have lost many steps since last year. They get started with North Star and Madison this month.
|2010 2-4
2009 13-5
|6/5 @ Rocky Mountain
|An 0-4 month actually ends up nudging Charm City up a slot based on a closer game against Rat City than Madison was able to muster in March. They'll take a well-earned month off before traveling to Rocky Mountain in early June.
|2010 0-2
2009 7-4
|No action in April, but slip a spot as Charm City passes them. They take on Windy City at late May's Midwest Brew-Ha-Ha tournament in Milwaukee.
|2010 1-0
2009 8-6
|5/15 @ Carolina
|No action or movement since last month.
|2010 2-1
2009 10-9
|5/15 vs Oly
|Holding steady at #13 after their 137-52 loss to #8 Philly seems to accurately reflect both teams' current placement.
|2010 3-0
2009 8-3
|San Diego swamped Atlanta in April and also gets some help from a falling Kansas City to return to their highest Power Rankings perch. After this weekend's Battle for the Coast tournament, however, their non-WFTDA flat track team goes mostly dormant for the spring and summer.
|2010 2-2
2009 5-0
|They'd been looking dangerous since Rollercon 2009, and London finally made good on their promise by battering Connecticut and Providence along with a 1 point loss to a very tough Philly local team.
|2010 2-1
2009 11-3
|5/15 vs Suburbia
|Delivered a big win over improving Dutchland, 177-97, and moves up a slot.
|2010 3-0
2009 8-5
|5/1 vs Arch Rivals
|Thumped Ohio 166-43 and gain a slot to keep pace with Steel City.
|2010 6-2
2009 8-8
|5/22 vs Kansas City
|A six-game win streak was rudely interrupted by San Diego early in April, but Atlanta has a chance to claim the inside line for a high tourney seeding when they take on Kansas City this month.
|2010 4-1
2009 10-5
|5/8 vs Chicago Outfit
|Previous #16 Cincy seems to love bouncing around the 15-20 range; they barely avoided an upset loss to Dallas that would have dragged them to #20. Next up is a shot against the up-and-coming Chicago Outfit.
|2010 8-5
2009 7-3
|5/15 @ Northwest Arkansas
|Dallas looks like a team that could easily be ranked higher, but they need to seal the deal on one of those teams to do it. After a very busy start to their season, they're playing mostly lowly-ranked teams in the leadup to tournament season.
|2010 4-1
2009 5-8
|5/15 vs Denver
|Thumped by Rocky Mountain in WFTDA action, but looked good against some younger teams at the Dust Devil. They'll get another taste of Colorado action when they battle Denver on May 15.
|2010 1-2
2009 5-5
|8/28 vs Cincinnati
|Still a bit of a mystery after an atypical roster got steamrolled by Rocky Mountain in February, we might not get our first sense of their real national power until they visit the ECE in late June and take on Philly. Before then, they'll test themselves against the improving Sacred City on May 8th.
|2010 0-0
2009 9-4
|5/22 @ Atlanta
|Like B.A.D., KCRW is a huge question mark after an unexpectedly narrow 11-point win over Omaha. A bout against Atlanta this month will go a long way towards showing if that was an outlier or not.
|2010 0-0
2009 9-3
|5/15 @ Chicago Outfit
|Throttled Sioux Falls by 183 points this month; no all-star action is set until late June's East Coast Extravaganza, though.
|2010 7-2
2009 5-6
|5/8 vs Dutchland
|Montreal had looked like a steadily improving team for awhile but few expected their overpowering 135-29 dismantling of Carolina. If Montreal continues to improve at the same pace, they will be a serious threat in the tough Eastern Region.
|WFTDA East region
|WFTDA West region
|WFTDA North Central region
|WFTDA South Central region
Please disregard W/L and next bout info
As we discussed in our recent open letter, Derbymatic (our bout data tracking database) just emerged from the Version 2.0 chrysalis... and is still drying out its wings on the way to becoming a beautiful butterfly.
What I'm trying to say is, the bout info is broken. We're patching it back up and should have it in place in a few days. Thanks for your patience!
hell yeahhhhhhh
Really? Brewcity drops?
so we finally convince the WFTDA voting body that beating Northstar in every match up against them should put us above them in the regional rankings, and I guess we should have been lobbying here instead.
Additionally, Beating Arch Rival by a similar margin as Cincinnati, (which is a direct comparison BTW) just 2 months ago, doesn't get us anywhere? Cincinatti is ranked 19 here, and 4th in the WFTDA rankings, but we drop despite a comparable comparison?
I'm not arguing for a top 20, but really, not even above Northstar who has never beaten us to date?
It really is an Outrage!
congrats though to Montreal and London.
just saying the wrong team got the bump as a result of your great play...
Yay for finally making the
Yay for finally making the power rankings, woot!
Well, it's odd.
MNRG has beaten Brew City every time we've faced each other (well, once at ECE 2009 and once when one of our home teams won in 2007), and Brew City has beaten NSRG every time they've faced each other, yet we're still below NSRG (we lost to them at 2009 Eastern Regionals) as well.
It can't simply be that you've beaten them so you're ranked above them, because people who have lost to them have beaten you. It's like calculus or something.
A while back...
Like two years ago I remember checking this site out and genuinely thinking that I would never live to see the day MTL would rise to the Top 25.
Props to Georgie W Tush, you crazy girl, and Jess Bandit and Smack Daddy.
Super stoked for London and Montreal - and US! But the Wildfires aren't playing Bako next (Hard Corps is). Wildfires are playing in the BAttle for the Coast and the Big One next.
Thanks for doing this, guys. And for what its worth, I agree about Oly. Having watched those bouts, Oly is still a force... but I was surprised at the Rose game. I think Rose will be climbing higher very soon.
MHC vs Texas, wowza!
And since Texas is bouting RMRG the next day, I'm pretty sure we already won the afterparty...
4 losses = a positive
I'm going to register a "really?" on the Charm City bump. 4 Losses in a month and a move up? Its not even that Madison dropped below since they didn't play. And the reasoning given was because of a loss Madison had the month before? All other teams seem to be ranked on what their win/loss/other variables were in April.
But yay to intenational derby.
Classic, cut-and-dried case
Classic, cut-and-dried case of triangulation.
What I *don't* quite get is how playing two unranked teams and a home team warrants a rise all the way to number 15. Low 20s? Sure. But it just doesn't seem like there's enough data to support such a meteoric jump.
thanks, but that doesn't do much for me
yeah, i get the whole triangulation thing.
i just don't get using a team's loss from March (i know they faced the same team) for rankings for April. i think no movement between the two would have made more sense, or even a maybe even a drop for Charm. seems like a stretch to justify a weak case.
voodoo ranki-omics!
From the looks of it, this seems much like the BCS in college football. Much in the way of theoretical and what if? as well as pride, I give you guys credit for trying to be as fair about it as possible... anyhoo the rankings seem to be for this month only and much can change between may and june...I see the top 10 and it seems right, it's almost like seating at a wedding, DNN is trying to be fair and balanced but there will always be some discontents, but remember it's subjective like the BCS, till the tournaments start then it will clear up, bottom line teams that win, win, win will be at the top... I'm so glad Derby is back!!!!
Can home teams be power-ranked?
But does this mean that the TXRG Hustlers and the PRG Philthy Britches should be power-ranked as well? I can't find anything on the Power Rankings FAQ page that says home teams can't be power-ranked, unless it's possibly "Your team has a stable roster that changes infrequently".
Power rankings
Where do I find the men's power rankings?
H.R.H. real deal
i assume you're talking about London here ...
I might be the only non-LRG-affiliated person on the planet who was at (live) three of their four recent public bouts: LRG vs. Hustlers, LRG vs. CTRG, and LRG vs. Providence. (missed LRG vs. Liberty Belles.) LRG is the real deal. Every DNN-ranked #10-#20 team needs to find the budget and long weekend to get over to London to play London Brawling in 2010. LRG absolutely belongs right in that mix.
Oh and with the right analytical techniques, there is enough data to warrant that high debut. See http://www42.pair.com/amr692/ratings/ - the dyte rankings.
you didn't miss LRG vs the belles...
...because they played a philly home team, the philthy britches.
i will say that i agree with their debut. they were a force + if geographically things weren't as much of a challenge, i could see london challenging for a top spot on the east, without question.
Yes, please
Every DNN-ranked #10-#20 team needs to find the budget and long weekend to get over to London to play London Brawling in 2010.
Yes, absolutely!
Missyle (LRG)
I'm with DayGlo....
....on this. This is the only thing on here that makes no sense to me. No disrespect to the London girls! I wish I could have played/met/hung with y'all while you were here!
~dr. SKabs
I love you, but....
I love you guys, but honestly, this month... you're on crack.
I love you guys, but honestly, this month... you're on crack.
Seriously? All the times that they have explained how they come to these conclusions and you STILL take issue? C'mon Quad. I think if Cincy was ranked number one, you would still argue.
Pitchit vs. Quad
I love you guys, but honestly, this month... you're on crack.
Seriously? All the times that they have explained how they come to these conclusions and you STILL take issue? C'mon Quad. I think if Cincy was ranked number one, you would still argue.
I think if you go back and look at past power ranking threads, you'll see me on multiple occasions defending DNN most of the time, using the very premise that it is based on who they think will beat who, yada yada. I especially like to bring this up when math nerds start proselytizing about point spreads and triangulation.
Why do you assume I am talking about Cincy's ranking, by the way? I'm not that narrow-minded about derby. I'm a derby nerd, yo. I have (mostly informed) opinions out the ying-yang about most of the teams in these rankings. I don't agree with Cincy's ranking, personally, but I'm not arguing about it. I am arguing elsewhere in this thread that they should stop saying that Cincy is inconsistent, because they're not, but I made no argument regarding their current placement in the rankings. IN FACT, it's an honor to be ranked at all really... that sounded corny, but whatever.
Here's my argument about this month's rankings just to clear up why these guys are on crack. ;)
I don't agree with Gotham swapping places with Oly based on games that happened against other teams and based on point spreads (which are pointless... pun intended). Oly beat Gotham when last they played just a few months ago on neutral ground. Until Gotham beats Oly, I would give the nod to Oly. But, these two teams are the best of the best, so it MIGHT be an "any given day" situation. Proof's in the pudding, though, is my opinion. Gotta beat 'em on the track. That's my opinion.
London comes in at 15 after some very impressive wins, but not THAT impressive. Geesh, they haven't beaten anyone else who's on these rankings, so how do they leapfrog more than a third of the field? Do they deserve to be ranked. Yes, I think so, but I don't think they've proven themselves to this degree YET. I'd honestly have them ranked around 24 or 25, probably, since Providence is one of those teams lurking just beyond 25.
And, if London is 15, then why are the Texas Rollergirls Hustlers not at least ranked 14, at least? They beat London. They have a stable roster. Where's the love for the Hustlers?
Montreal's win over Carolina was one of the most impressive wins this past month, in my opinion. They've been on a much more impressive (in my opinion) tear than London by comparison. I don't see why they didn't get a bigger bump. I'd have put them about three to five slots higher based on their play in the past month.
I think 15-25 (or 26 or 27) is a mess right now, and probably because most of those teams are pretty evenly matched overall, but DNN seems to be showing zero respect to straight up wins anymore and seems enamoured by point spreads and triangulation and the flavors of the month.
So, I think they're on crack this month. So what? I love the rankings. Even when they're all wrong... LOL.
I just killed half a day at work arguing about derby, which is how I'd like to spend more of my days, frankly.
Quad vs Derby
I just killed half a day at work arguing about derby, which is how I'd like to spend more of my days, frankly.
I absolutely agree. =)
The rest of the day
Hey Quad,
You think 15-25 is a mess, so tell us, what do you think 15-25 ought to be?
The Rest of Quad's Day
Hey Quad,
You think 15-25 is a mess, so tell us, what do you think 15-25 ought to be?
Sorry, dude, after I leave work, I immediately put on red spandex tights, a mask and a cape and rescue kittens from trees. Don't tell anyone though. It's a secret. Hark! I must be off... Up, up and away!
Undefeated and the National Champions
No Harris/AP/Coaches/ESPN Poll would ever move a BCS National Champion and still undefeated team out of the #1 spot.
You went against the whole rule about point spreads, now teams are going to have to beat teams mo' betta than the last team?
Well its for fun, but its an outrage.
And thanks, we (Puget Sound Outcast) have a scrimmage bout against the Oly Rollers Sunday morning and I already heard Sassy isn't happy......
It's called triangulation...
...and it's practically scientific. Just look at Oly's winning point differentials from 09. From them we see why Rose (+6) was ranked higher than Gotham (+31), who were just about equal with Rat (+37), with Rat at altitude no less! We all remember when Duke (+73) was ranked higher than Texas (+78). The real surprise though, was when the Hotrod Honeys (+41) were ranked above their own league's all star Texecutioners (+78), the calculus for that one complicated by 7 or 8 Honeys actually skating for the Texecutioners.
My sympathies regarding your scrimmage Sunday...Hell hath no fury etc. etc.
Yes us guys went into Olympia this morning, and the Oly Rollers were so distracted from dropping to number 2 that Atomatrix couldn't find herself to jam any more than two times. And one of them was shut out by a bunch of boys.
So after the Oly Roller Roller were beat up and now even more distracted they will seek for pity from the public because they want answers to question why they are not #1 on DNN.
**Actually they kicked our ass. Not afraid to say it. And we have speed/hockey/jam skaters and we average around 6ft and 190lbs.**
So this weekend when we (Puget Sound Outcast) finally have a semi full roster of 11 and it looks like we ran up the score, we just did it because it was too easy compared to what we have to deal with when we fight every sunday morning for each point we earn. Sorry we train with the National Champions who are undefeated. LOL This summer OLY roster add ons has so many surprises. Just want to say this right now OMG!
Yeah yeah yeah.
What I really want to know is when Justice, et al, take on the uberdudes.
Congrats, of course,
To London and Montreal!
not sure i understand
why nashville is ranked above atlanta when wftda has atlanta ranked two slots above nashville in the south central region.
DNN makes more sense
The DNN ranking makes more sense. Nashvillle beat Atlanta head to head in the first bout of the 2010 season.
Also, the WFTDA rankings are quarterly, so not as reflective of current reality.
atlanta: 116 arch rivals:
atlanta: 116
arch rivals: 79
nashville: 115
arch rivals: 82
not sure what to make of this...crazy how similar these scores are. maybe atlanta and nashville are too close for comfort here. i'm sure there will be a rematch in the future. atlanta's a great competitor and i'm sort of honored to be considered in the same realm as them these days.
p.s. st. louis skated like pros on our floor last night (even with leaks from all the flooding) and gave us one of the hardest fought games we've had all season. wicked fun game to play. we've probably lost more games on our floor than we've won...so i wouldn't necessarily call it a home-court advantage.
Nashville deserves to be
Nashville deserves to be above Atlanta because they beat Atlanta. In my humble personal opinion, a win should count for more than a popular vote. I think the WFTDA ranking system should be evaluated when a head to head divisional win ends up with the wining team being ranked two spots below a team they beat.
Atlanta has nothing to complain about. They got the boost in the rankings that count in the tournaments.
However, I don't see why Nashville and Atlanta are above Cincinnati. I think that ranking is going to change very quickly.
And my hat is off to Arch Rival. I watched them play Cincinnati and that was not the same team that showed up in Nashville. Best and toughest game Nashville has had all season.
Yep WFTDA rankings obviously have a serious problem
The most current WFTDA ranking is post Nashville beating Atlanta this year. It predates the Nashville thrashing of Ohio, but does include The Nashville win over Pikes Peak. For WFTDA to have Atlanta 3 Nashville 4, right next to each other, well I'd still disagree, but it would make more sense, but Atlanta 3 and UNDEFEATED Nashville 5. Something is seriously, seriously wrong there. I consider Nashville and Atlanta really really close to each other, basically equal teams. A bout between them could go either way with it probably coming down to untimely penalties by one or the other, which is just how DNN has them. What sucks about this situation is the questionable WFTDA rankings (as you pointed out) are what determine regional tourney seeding.
The most current WFTDA ranking is post Nashville beating Atlanta this year. It predates the Nashville thrashing of Ohio, but does include The Nashville win over Pikes Peak. For WFTDA to have Atlanta 3 Nashville 4, right next to each other, well I'd still disagree, but it would make more sense, but Atlanta 3 and UNDEFEATED Nashville 5. Something is seriously, seriously wrong there. I consider Nashville and Atlanta really really close to each other, basically equal teams. A bout between them could go either way with it probably coming down to untimely penalties by one or the other, which is just how DNN has them. What sucks about this situation is the questionable WFTDA rankings (as you pointed out) are what determine regional tourney seeding.
you're comparing apples to oranges.
In what way...
WFTDA has undefeated Nashville ranked two slots behind a team they beat by 30 plus who had losses on their record. Looks suspiciously like reputation is outweighing reality. Not a criticism or belittling of Atlanta in ANY way. They are a very good team. The point was and is, Atlanta v Nashville at this point looks like an "any given Sunday" matchup, and that is how DNN has them. On the other hand WFTDA, put out rankings the end of march where post Nashville beating Atlanta head to head, and without a loss on their record, Nashville is not one, but TWO slots behind Atlanta. I know the WFTDA rankings are "stale", but they do (or should) take into account a herad to head matchup. You can add it to the completely whack way the tournament brackets are done (instead of 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, we'll just pull something out of our ass) as things that leave me scratching my head.
regular season
Looks suspiciously like reputation is outweighing reality.
Which is why there needs to be some sort of regular season structure to decide regional invites rather than biased voting.
Looks suspiciously like reputation is outweighing reality.
Which is why there needs to be some sort of regular season structure to decide regional invites rather than biased voting.
Great, then you need to give the teams with dedicated practice spaces and the teams who practice for free in gov't provided parks equal budgets so that they can all get out to play the games WFTDA would then need to dictate that they play.
The best would probably be required to play the worst in their division from time to time. Attempts to play at or near ones level would be replaced by "play everyone in your area who's a member at least once, maybe twice." Though honestly, having the freedom to pick one's schedule hasn't made the current system work much better in that regard.
Many leagues still skate intraleague derby. Windy City has skated no interleague bouts to date. Gotham Girls have skated ONE interleague bout this season, the rest will be intraleague until ECDX.
Whose money are we going to use to implement your plan? Who is going to reserve the venues a year in advance to the dates WFTDA decides the games should be played on?
the difference
is that WFTDA ranks how teams performed, up until a certain period, not how teams are expected to perform. The data for Q1 rankings ends on March 31, 2010. I really wouldn't call the WFTDA rankings biased either, it's an average of all of your region and the votes aren't secret.
Please understand that I'm
Please understand that I'm not attempting to be argumentative here, but that's the point we're trying to make. That it doesn't seem like the actually ranking period performance was taken into account in this instance. The entire SC region may agree that Atlanta is better than Nashville, and that's fine. But sometimes the better team loses the game. That's sports. That's the whole point.
Some people might vote the 2007 Patriots the best football team of all time. Unfortunately for them, they don't have the superbowl ring because they lost one game to the Giants. That's why the game is played.
The whole Nashville team looks up to and respects Atlanta (hell, I think half of them want to have Demi Gore's baby), but, and THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, I don't feel like that respect is being reciprocated in the ranking process.
Temporarily distracted
by the awesomeness of a Demi Gore and Maudlin Monroe baby ......
Not Sure
First , Totally flattered about the baby comment :) Second, Don't think for one minute that Atlanta understands that we lost a game.... Believe me, it pushed us HARD. There is absolutely NO DISRESPECT from ATL to Nash. We even spoke to eachother about how to help each team get better and challenge each other. Just wanted to make that point clear. We will meet Nash again.... and were totally excited for it! Demi
Don't think we don't
Second, Don't think for one minute that Atlanta understands that we lost a game.... Believe me, it pushed us HARD.
Hey Demi, I think you mean "don't think for a minute that Atlanta doesn't understand that we lost that game?" Right? Cuz we do understand. Tricky double negatives. ;-)
P.S.--For anyone outside of Atlanta who wants Demi's love child, get in line. We get first dibs!
apples to oranges
you're comparing apples to oranges.
is that WFTDA ranks how teams performed, up until a certain period, not how teams are expected to perform. The data for Q1 rankings ends on March 31, 2010. I really wouldn't call the WFTDA rankings biased either, it's an average of all of your region and the votes aren't secret.
Sounds more like apples to unripe, incomplete apples. Or oranges to smaller oranges. Like oranges to tangerines maybe. But I wouldn't agree that comparing one ranking system of flat track derby with a cutoff date to another flat track derby ranking system without a cutoff date is comparing apples to oranges.
Wasn't fishing for an
Wasn't fishing for an explanation on Cinci, but thanks for the details! But I think us Nashville fans are going to wait until we see how our gals fair this year at ECE and against Steel City before we go thinking we're up there with Cinci. :-)
Justice vs. Quad!
The entire time we've been doing Power Rankings, Cincy has been strangely inconsistent in their performance, and that gets reflected in the fact that they move a lot between mid-teens and upper-twenties (and which makes my good pal, Homicide / Team SeXY teammate and Cincy bench coach Quad Almighty send me a lot of pointed emails). Could very well be that Cincy had an outlier against Dallas, and that a future Cincy / Dallas game would come out much differently. As always, there are certain teams that are really tough to pin down.
Alright, dude. Since you dropped my name directly I'm gonna say this.
(FYI, if you aren't any of the DNN peeps, then you probably aren't going to care much about ANY of this message, so I'll save you the time of reading the rest of this novella by saying that my argument is bascially that Cincinnati is not inconsistent. Have a nice day. Move along. Nothing to see here.)
I AM NOT SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE CINCINNATI ROLLERGIRLS IN ANY OFFICIAL CAPACITY!! I am speaking for myself as an individual and fan of derby. Cincinnati Rollergirls has neither approved nor endorsed ANY of my comments below. If you've got a beef, then it's with me, Quad Almighty, not with them.
I am not complaining about where you ranked Cincinnati this month. I NEVER complain about WHERE you guys rank Cincinnati. Rankings/schmankings just go out and play, I always say. I DO complain about this whole "Cincinnati is inconsistent" baloney, though. And, here's why:
After 2008 Regionals, Cinci ended their season ranked 17 in DNN's Power Rankings. During the 2009 season, Cinci was bounced around between 17 and 22 because Cinci was "inconsistent." (Although, I don't see how being ranked consistently in the same range of five is inconsistent anyway--especially considering the plethora of teams that moved far more drastically in and out of the rankings altogether in that time--but I digress.) After 2009 Regionals, Cinci ended their season ranked 17 in DNN's Power Rankings. Sound familiar? After a year of "inconsistent," Cinci wound up right where they started at 17. Cinci was 10-4 that year, with all four losses to top-notch teams ranked well above them: Windy City (twice), Mad Rollin' and Detroit.
After a three month hiatus (Cinci's longest since they were accepted into the WFTDA) Cinci was ranked at 15, their highest rank ever, on DNN's March 2010 poll.
Then, Cinci lost a hotly contested game against San Diego and fell one spot to 16 in April, behind San Diego, which seemed TOTALLY consistent and fair to me.
Now, here's the crackhead part. In the month of April, Cincinnati was 5-0. All five wins were against WFTDA opponents (not home teams), with one win against a tough DNN top 20 team. Cincinnati drops three spots and (almost four evidently) to 19 in May.
I want to reiterate, Cinci acheived its highest ranking ever at 15 by NOT playing anyone for two months, but wins five times in one month to take a three game dive in the rankings and regain their infamous "inconsistent" moniker. I don't care so much about the ranking, but what the hell was inconsistent? All they did was WIN. What is it that you guys are wanting Cinci to do exactly?
If you're looking for huge point spreads, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cincinnati is not concerned with burying opponents under humiliating point spreads just to prove a point to the three of you fellas. Cinci plays to win, but Cinci does not run up the score in order to denegrate their opponents or their sport just for the sake of their ranking on your website.
(Sidenote: I personally think point spreads in derby are about as useful as a third nipple when it comes to really comparing teams, but that's just me. What do I know?)
Cincinnati has lost one game EVER to an opponent ranked below them on DNN's rankings. That loss was to San Diego this March. Cincinnati has won one game EVER to an opponent ranked above them on DNN's rankings. That win was against San Diego in November. That tells me that San Diego and Cincinnati are pretty evenly matched, not that Cinci is inconsistent.
Cincinnati is not flashy. I'll give you that. Cincinnati goes about their business very simply and directly, usually underestimated, usually misunderstood, but usually respected by their opponents when all is said and done. That's the only respect Cincinnati really gives a $#!T about, honestly. Let's beat the snot out of each other for sixty minutes and then let's go to a bar, have fun and brag about each other for the rest of the night. Everything else is a third nipple.
Cincinnati wins the games they are "supposed to win" according to all the hoity-toity rankings. In 37 WFTDA games since 2007, Cincinnat has never lost to an opponent ranked below them in the WFTDA rankings. Cincinnati went into the 2009 North Central WFTDA Regional tournament seeded fourth, and finished fourth in the tournament. In the DNN rankings, Cinci started their year 17 and ended their year 17. They beat a DNN higher-ranked team once, and lost to a DNN lower-ranked team once... both to the same team. Where are you seeing inconsistency here?
I think what you guys do overall is amazing, seriously-awesomely-fucking-GREAT, and I'm grateful that you smart people are doing it. Really. Thank you. I look forward to your power rankings every month. I love the discussion and how you guys handle the discussion. It really is one of the best things going in our sport.
That said, I don't particularly care that much WHERE you rank Cincinnati month-to-month. I like to see Cincinnati up there, because I'm a fan and want people to think well of my favorite team. But, Cincinnati does not play for rankings. They play for their teammates and they play to win. Period. I guarantee that Cincinnati is going to continue to do their talking on the track. I guarantee Cincinnati is going to win a whole bunch of games. Cincinnati is a team that knows who they are.
I don't expect you to know who they are like I do, but I do hope that you will keep your back-handed insults about Cincinnati being "inconsistent" to yourself, please. It's disrespectful to the players, it's not fair or accurate or true, and it's not really that funny anymore, either.
Much LOVE and RESPECT. See ya Saturday, my brother, when it's time again for what's really important.
I don't expect you to know who they are like I do, but I do hope that you will keep your back-handed insults about Cincinnati being "inconsistent" to yourself, please. It's disrespectful to the players, it's not fair or accurate or true, and it's not really that funny anymore, either.
Agreed with everything you said up to this point. Stating an opinion based on observation (whether you agree with it or not) is not disrespectful in the slightest. I understand that there should be some mutual respect but teams should also be able to take criticism (whether you agree with it or not) because if roller derby ever hits the mainstream, you better believe criticism is coming and it's coming 100x harder and it will actually be disrespectful. It is impossible to discuss sports (or anything) without discussing negatives. If you only want to discuss positive things about everyone then you should probably avoid talking about roller derby outside of the after parties.
Sorry, Charley.
Chuck, don't put words in my mouth, yo. I didn't say anything about only discussing "positives" or ducking "criticism." I also didn't talk about red herrings or straw men. (Look it up, Chucky.) I disagreed with DNN's "opinion" of Cincinnati, because disagreeing with DNN's opinion is pretty much the point of this whole thread every month, dude.
What was my point? Oh, yeah. Opinions can most certainly be disrespectful, Chuck. For instance, if I say I think you're a douchebag, that might be my opinion, but it's also disrepectful. BTW, I don't think you're a douchebag. I think you're a funny guy and I enjoy reading your posts.
Stating month after month in no uncertain terms that Cincinnati performs inconsistently, with plenty of evidence to the contrary, is not "mutually respectful." It's careless. It has influence over the way the derby community thinks about the Cincinnati Rollergirls. And, when that opinion is not based on fact, I'm gonna point that out.
(Actually, it's mostly an inside joke between Justice, Hurt and I, but I'm calling foul this month, because Cincinnati did not deserve the slight in either Justice's post or Hurt's comments in the rankings this month.)
The DNN peeps are good eggs with valid and informed opinions... usually. BUT, since DNN is the main and most respected source of derby journalism, DNN has measurable influence over the derby community. Justice, Hurt and Gnosis' very public opinions of derby are rightly scrutinized and debated here and elsewhere... and I am absolutely positive that no one encourages that more, and no one desires that more, than the folks at DNN themselves.
In short: IT'S AN OUTRAGE I TELL YOU!
why do we have to have subjects?
Chuck, don't put words in my mouth, yo. I didn't say anything about only discussing "positives" or ducking "criticism." I also didn't talk about red herrings or straw men. (Look it up, Chucky.) I disagreed with DNN's "opinion" of Cincinnati, because disagreeing with DNN's opinion is pretty much the point of this whole thread every month, dude.
What was my point? Oh, yeah. Opinions can most certainly be disrespectful, Chuck. For instance, if I say I think you're a douchebag, that might be my opinion, but it's also disrepectful. BTW, I don't think you're a douchebag. I think you're a funny guy and I enjoy reading your posts.
Stating month after month in no uncertain terms that Cincinnati performs inconsistently, with plenty of evidence to the contrary, is not "mutually respectful." It's careless. It has influence over the way the derby community thinks about the Cincinnati Rollergirls. And, when that opinion is not based on fact, I'm gonna point that out.
(Actually, it's mostly an inside joke between Justice, Hurt and I, but I'm calling foul this month, because Cincinnati did not deserve the slight in either Justice's post or Hurt's comments in the rankings this month.)
The DNN peeps are good eggs with valid and informed opinions... usually. BUT, since DNN is the main and most respected source of derby journalism, DNN has measurable influence over the derby community. Justice, Hurt and Gnosis' very public opinions of derby are rightly scrutinized and debated here and elsewhere... and I am absolutely positive that no one encourages that more, and no one desires that more, than the folks at DNN themselves.
In short: IT'S AN OUTRAGE I TELL YOU!
Don't put words in my mouth either. You're welcome to disagree and I've had some pretty big disagreements here as well. That was kind of the point of my post is that people should be open to disagreements just like you should be open to disagreements. If you came on here and made a post every month criticizing DNN's rankings as being terrible wrong, would that disrespectful? I'm guess you answered no to that question. Why is it then disrespectful for JFM to do basically the same thing?
If you thought I was a douche bag after months and months of observation and called me a douche bag based on your informed opinion, that would not be disrespectful. That's your opinion.
I agree with you on Cincy's
I agree with you on Cincy's ranking and I want a "CRG: Everything else is a third nipple." t-shirt.
Cincinnati has lost one game EVER to an opponent ranked below them on DNN's rankings. That loss was to San Diego this March. Cincinnati has won one game EVER to an opponent ranked above them on DNN's rankings. That win was against San Diego in November. That tells me that San Diego and Cincinnati are pretty evenly matched, not that Cinci is inconsistent.
I'd agree with that. Our last game was full of lead changes and I was glad it ended when it did (w/ us on top). Not sure it'd end that way a third time, would love to have the opportunity to find out.
Perhaps the word DNN's analysts were looking for was, instead, "anomalous," i.e. "inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected." (http://www.merriam-webster.com)
I can see how someone could label Cincy's consistency "anomalous," (which is within shouting distance of 'inconsistent'), given that a lot of teams in the power ranking 11-20 range, over time, either trend upward into the 1-10 ranks or downward into the 20-30 ranks, thanks to player movement, retirement, dramatic improvements, etc.
(Someone else please tackle the rigorous analysis behind that assertion - how many teams are ranked in the teens range month in, month out? If you look at the June 2009 power rankings for teams 11-20: 2 teams (Rat City and RMRG) have graduated to top-10, 5 teams (Duke and B.A.D. and KCRW and Pikes Peak and Houston) have slipped below #20, and 3 teams (Madison, San Diego, and Detroit) are still bouncing in that range)
So, by being abnormally consistent, the Cincy squad is, ironically, actually inconsistent with expectations of the way derby teams ebb and flow. (That's a thesis easy to test and easy to disagree with.) Anyway, I'd charitably suggest that this was the meaning DNN's analysts were trying to get at.
O.K. How long has DNN been doing Power Rankings?
O.K. How long has DNN been doing Power Rankings? And how many people still don't get it?
It's simple people, you beat DNN's expectations and you go up in the rankings, you fail to meet DNN's expectations and you go down in the rankings. Read the FAQ.
Roller Derby Is Feelings TM
But I still wouldn't bet against the dudes with a 90% accuracy record if I was betting with my own cash. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - until *you* can beat their record, it's time to admit these 3 dudes just *might* know something... and Southbay, word. Thanks to the folks who read the article or the FAQ.
not that I don't appreciate GGRD being placed at #1
But I may appreciate the doubling of the panda crack avatar count on DNN even more!
See also:
Panda crack rulez
That said I can't wait until we get a chance to play Oly again
now tripled!!!
I was hoping Lynx wouldn't mind...
...it's a recent picture of me at the San Diego Zoo.
Ana's panda crack FTW, though!
More Pandas = Better
I <3 Pandas :)
I strongly disagree with
I strongly disagree with this! Really dropping oly to 2 from 1 lets look at the roster for oly hmm new girls and they are playing Bteam girls more. they have played 4 games so far this season and goth has played 1. look who oly played in the charm bout . Again i do not understand even though you say its a point thing you drop the number 1 team down when they have not lose a game at all. pay attention to the roster. by the way everyone is saying how rose came so close to beating them well lets see rose always gets oly first in the season and well oly didnt practice much at all before that bout half the girls had not even skated a bout with oly examples deadly aim,rettig,scara to death, and a few others,,,You also if you notice oly is not making changes to the roster much you know they might have some tricks up there sleeve that they are going to wait on to change up the roster at the last minute to surprise everyone hmmmm.. they might have some girls coming on board and that have been practicing with oly that will surprise you all!!... But anyways I strongly disagree with this....
National Champions.....Disrespected
Granted they didn't beat Charm as decisively as Gotham did. However, Oly did beat higher ranked Philly at the WWS by a very large margin. Maybe a day after the Boston bout, they could take a trip to NYC and really settle this.
There may be a lot of reasons
There may be a lot of reasons a triangulated game that isn't close may not be an accurate assessment of a team's potential. An example might be that a team with a safe lead uses that lead to test lineups featuring less integrated team members. Or to give those newer members competitive game experience so they can hold the fort while the "top guns" cool off or penalties are managed. A substantial win might be "good enough".
Also, non-close cross-regional games may introduce another aspect of distortion: those games don't affect WFTDA regional standings.
I think a lot of teams really don't play every game with their Power Rank in mind. A team like the SDDD Wildfires would, because Power Rankings are the only competitive gauge they have. Everyone else can say, "We'll see you in regionals, then maybe world's (formerly 'nationals')."
Blonde 'n' Blockin
I'll tell you one thing: I recently got to scrimmage against some of Oly's top skaters the morning after Charm City played them, and I have a two word review: GOD DAMN. There is zero disrespect coming from this corner, believe you me.
However, though, you're kind of making our point for us: the margin of the Philly / Oly game (66 points) was slightly smaller than the margin of the more recent Charm City / Oly bout (54 points); more importantly, Charm City was still mathematically in the game later than Philly was. Either Charm City should be ranked higher than Philly, or Oly has been affected by the loss of Blonde 'n' Bitchin (D-Bomb did not play in either game).
I believe it that you got some religion (of sorts) bumpin with the Oly gals:)
Blonde 'n' Bitchin has evolved into a fine blocker since her Rat City days, so I could see her absence impacting Oly a bit in the bout with Charm. It's a guess on my part, but I think Oly really wanted to better integrate and stretch the new "Seattle Connection" ingredients in that bout. I don't wanna split hairs bout the ranking since it will all be settled in November, but moving a undefeated National Champion to second is a bit of a head scratcher.
Some posters have intimated about the possibility of some new "ringers" coming into the Oly mix. Are we gonna see them rumble with Rocky Mountain or do we have to wait till the Westerns?
Edit to add: I actually READ your question & see that I don't know the answer. *laugh*
You will see that soon!
RMRG's 5280 Fight Club will in fact be taking on Oly later this month! It'll be the weekend of the 22nd. They will also be meeting up with Rat City and Portland. Boy are we going to be sore after that!
We tried!!!
Granted they didn't beat Charm as decisively as Gotham did. However, Oly did beat higher ranked Philly at the WWS by a very large margin. Maybe a day after the Boston bout, they could take a trip to NYC and really settle this.
We tried to make that happen! Gotham was so ready to head up to Boston for a Sunday hang over bout but Oly had to get back to WA to tend to their real life jobs and such...
There's gonna be a showdown
We tried to make that happen! Gotham was so ready to head up to Boston for a Sunday hang over bout but Oly had to get back to WA to tend to their real life jobs and such...
eventually. We'll keep the Chinese Rocks at bay until then.
south central regionals
they're going to be *super* awesome this year. the second and third places are going to be really up for grabs. it seems as if kansas city's previous spot may be in jeopardy for them. they're still going to be an interesting team to watch, but with their waver against omaha makes it questionable as to whether or not they're going to be the obvious second place team anymore. after atlanta defeating dallas and houston both, and nashville finally shaking the monkey off their back by defeating atlanta, it's anyone's ball game. one of the things i love about derby is "any given sunday..."
and as far as the gotham over oly thing, after watching oly's game against rose, i'm not entirely sure that i could see oly taking gotham this year. i think gotham has the power to rise over oly, although oly is still obviously incredibly amazing.
and i cannot wait for windy city to rise back up in the rankings. :D obviously.
WFTDA championships are going to be super exciting this year. i'm stoked. :)
Atlanta, Nashville, Atlanta, Nashville....
OMG All this Atlanta/Nashville talk makes me swoony! I love that there are two teams so close (both geographically and within rank) to each other. It makes for some very entertaining derby when these two teams meet, we both have fanatical support.
I agree with Elle about this year's SC regional tourney.
they're going to be *super* awesome this year. the second and third places are going to be really up for grabs.
I have no doubt that whatever way you slice it, by vote (reputation) or other determinant that both teams will be in Lincoln ready to play!
Both Atlanta and Nashville play Providence in Atlanta in July, so we'll see who has their "given Sunday"...uh, that Friday and Saturday.
Hooray South Central!
Hooray South Central
And I SURE hope all the stuff I said came out the right way. We love and respect Atlanta (until we take the track against them). Every bout between those two is going to be a war for many years to come I imagine. It's WFTDA and their whack ranking system and even more whack tournament brackets I have an issue with.
And I SURE hope all the stuff I said came out the right way. We love and respect Atlanta (until we take the track against them). Every bout between those two is going to be a war for many years to come I imagine. It's WFTDA and their whack ranking system and even more whack tournament brackets I have an issue with.
Both of which the travel team/league you're going to bat for can work to change if they see a better way. Honestly, WFTDA is not a dictatorship.
The tournament brackets we had last fall were chosen so that more teams could compete in them. And so that all finishers wound up in a place. And so that nobody wound up "one and done." You know, every league in WFTDA's membership money is spent on putting on those tournaments, and the leagues, their reps, the committees those reps participate in decide how these things should be done.
Every time I see someone grousing about such things, it's generally someone with a particular desired outcome in mind. Or an idea of how things should be that comes from being a traditional sports fan. With travel teams only required to play two bouts within their region in order to be ranked and having the rest up to them (as is probably needed) there really isn't a better ranking system one could come up with.
I am a lot happier with the regional rankings than I ever was with the old national rankings. Imagine if you were a Windy City supporter and they barely seemed to move up in the rankings because too many people who hadn't seen 'em recently couldn't shake the memories of Dust Devil '06? How do you rank Gem City against Central Coast, River City and Alamo City? That's what the voters used to have to do (albeit with fewer leagues), and it was a nightmare.
Well, it seems
SOME kind of a system could be devised that is better than just a subjective poll for the ranking system. Perhaps requiring a larger minimum number of bouts within one's own region with win/loss records and point differentials put into a formula that is then combined with win/loss outside the region combined with the subjective poll. That would be similar to the BCS system, which while imperfect, is an upgrade from "Well, I've never seen team A play, but I remember them being pretty good so I'll rank them 4th", which seems to be the system we have now.
You will never convince me there is anything "fair" about the tournament brackets. I am forced to use the Nashville example (and be a homer) because it is the only situation I am familiar with. Nashville comes in ranked 6th out of 10 teams. They have to play the #1 ranked team in their first bout, they lose, which then leaves them in a position of being able to finish no better than 5th. In a bracket that made ANY sense whatsoever they would have played the #5 ranked team. Would the eventual outcome last year have been diffferent, maybe not, that's not the point. The situation is mitigated somewhat with the "buys" given all but the bottom ranked teams, but still, the payment for being ranked 6th is facing the #1 team in the first round for elimation from nationals.
Roller derby can't preach on and on and on about how it IS a real sport (and it is), and fight to be taken seriously as a real sport (which is should be), and then turn around and say the tournament brackets have to have some whack design used by no other sport in the universe because we're worried the #10 ranked team will get their little feelers hurt by being crushed by the #1 ranked team.
minimum bout requirements
My parents are longtime hockey fans (go Oilers!) and the roller derby season absolutely confounds them. Skate for 10 months of the year, but only bout once every few weeks?
I think many skaters would love to bout and travel more, but there are obvious financial considerations at play.
Also, I think we've seen some definite regional distinctions in terms of style of play. Does requiring more regional play help or hurt the sport's advancement?
I think balance would be the key. as the sport continues to grow more frequent bouts will probably be possible as the distance betweeen teams shrinks, and the money generated by bouts grows.
Say in a 10 month season you had one bout a month for a total of 10 bouts. I don't think 6 bouts in your region (3 home and 3 away), and 4 bouts against anybody you wanted would be out of line. It would preserve the opportuniity to play teams from a different region while still giving enough regional bouts to allow some real regional standings to emerge.
I meant to add.
I am NOT, repeat NOT speaking as the representative of any league. I am not a league member, I do not pay league dues. I am an employee of the league. All views are my own and do not represent the league in any form or fashion. I am speaking as an announcer, a fan, and a person who cares about this sport and it's future.
Derbytron has it right.
You're definitely not alone.
You're definitely not alone. If the purpose of Regionals, for example, was strictly to find the top 3 teams from a region, they would be conducted differently. It's entirely possible that rankings inaccurately place teams in the 4-6 slots, when they may be 1-3. It is FAR less likely that teams in the 7-10 slots are competitive enough for the 1-3 slots to be sent to the world championship. The lower ranks are included for other reasons than determining the contestants for the championship.
I find it disturbing that #6, which could be competitive for #2 or 3, is blown right out of the water in last year's system.
Yea, okay?
Except that Derbytron has my league, for example, ranked five spots lower than a team we beat like a month ago? They haven't played any games since that tournament, and we've played like four, and won three?
Derbytron is way, way worse at predictive rankings than either WFTDA or DNN.
derbytron rankings...
I'm pretty sure derbytrons rankings were not what he was talking about when he said "derbytron has it right" he was talking about the post they made that you see if you click the link he gave.
Yeah, I read it.
You're assuming that I didn't. And I pretty much thing that Angus' and Poobah's replies sum up most of my feelings on that particular post. I pointed to derbytron's current rankings as another example of the failure of their "in a perfect, statistical, orderly universe" perspective.
Actually, I think Derbytron
Actually, I think Derbytron and DNN got pretty close to the same number (percentage-wise) of games correctly predicted last year (83-5ish?) and I think they were both better than WFTDA.
Computer rankings are always going to be far from perfect at the beginning of the year. They get more accurate as more games are played.
ad nauseum
I know this is said OVER and OVER, but wftda doesn't predict who's going to win. I mean what are you makinga case for?
And actually, take a look at flattrackstats, it's a great resource but it's far from accurate in the ability to correctly determine which teams are better than others.
I know
Just refuting her point.
Flattrackstats puts way too much of an emphasis on tournament wins. I don't know the exact math but it seems like nationals count more in the rankings in November of the next year than the games played that year.
The point
Right, WFTDA isn't trying to be predictive, it's ranking teams based on their past performance on the track. The point is that it uses a totally subjective system to do that.
Pretty much every other sport:
Has a "conference" (which would equate to our regions), sometimes split into divisions (which WFTDA could easily do with 16 to 20 teams in a region.
You are required to play a certain number of games in your conference (and in your division if one exists), and allowed to play a certain number of games outside it. Playoffs are determined by
Your conference record, your division record, your overall record, and in a case where those are tied point differentials and other tie breakers.
There is no reason the WFTDA couldn't split each region (they are getting way too big) into divisions, require some number of games within that (say 6 in your region 4 of which must be in your division), and determine regional tournament seeeding based on
1. Your conference record
2. Your divisional record
3. Your overall record
4. Tie breakers related to point differential or something else.
I don't know about going to
I don't know about going to Nebraska, but I'll be in Chicago for sure! No offense, No Coast.
ARG is totally greatful!
We are super excited to be even in the top 25! Thanks DNN!! The choices are from head to head games definitely. I mean, KCRW is #2 in our region yet has fallen back to #23 on DNN.... Could be ANYONE'S Ranking right now. Can't wait for the rest of this season!!!! Great teams coming up the ranks! Demi Gore, Atlanta Rollergirls
They are probably great hungry as well.
Though I'd recommend a healthy normal-sized meal before a bout to prevent stomach cramps or losing energy from skating starved.
and honored!
Regionals feel like they're right around the corner and we still have so many games to play before we get there! Love it when the Power Rankings come out, especially when Atlanta just keeps moving up!
This is getting so exciting!
Holy shit, 3 countries represented in the rankings! Huge congratulations to London and Montreal. What an exciting time to be a part of roller derby!
And thank you to DNN for all the thought you guys put into these rankings. Lord knows it can't be easy.
Atlanta Rollergirls
Way to..
make an entrance ladies! I had to get on here and congratulate London. They were wonderful hostesses & provided an incredible challenge- the most fun bout i've had the pleasure of playing as a Hustler to date. Looking forward to seeing them again, perhaps with my other texan buddies ;) I second Hambone's advice! make the trip across the pond- you won't regret it.
(also big congrats to my original love/league, nashville. very proud)
Thanks Molotov!
We heart you, the Hustlers, and of course TXRG!
We all learned so much from that game - it's the first time we got a real challenge - and a loss - and that's a neccessary thing if you want to improve! Without the Hustlers bout, we wouldn't have been able to come over to the states and get even better.
Like she said - come visit/play!
p.s. Does it still say #15???!!! Giddy...
First off, congrats to the international flavor! Awesome to see the sport keep growing! Mainly though, I'm with Geno and a few others here. Until someone beats the Oly Rollers, they are No. 1. I may live in Oly, but I'm affiliated with Rainy City (that should let y'all know which side of the fence I tend to fall on...lol), but Oly has yet to be beaten in a sanctioned bout. Period. I don't care if they were all 1-point wins. Undefeated AND defending national champs should solidify that even more! A win is a win, regardless of how much its by. I understand the justification here and the process, but in my mind, until someone proves they can beat them, Oly is No. 1.
Hey Justice!!!
I told you this month's ranking would cause the big stir,,,,,,,,,,So many great teams playing each other so early in the year,,,,,Don't worry folks. The way everyone is stepping up thier games as of late, I'm sure we will see quite a few changes in the rankings this year.... As the great Karen Carpenter once sang " We've only just begun"......
It's only May........Damn! I love this game!!
I love that a league's best team is ranked, not all of them...
Because it makes perfect sense to me that with the way derby works, a league with a phenomenal "A" team would have that talent spread around on their home teams, and that the same talent would also influence - if not directly COACH - or even have overlapping rosters with the rest of the teams on the league. During the tourney last weekend, Rose's B team had a shot at the title and if they had beaten SD Wildfires, a fan wanted to know, would they then get ranked?
Ranking more than one team in a league doesn't make any sense to me, though. I know Rose City's A team rules and they're ranked high (tho I think higher soon, possibly should be higher now). So of course their B team, which had some overlap and lots of former & future A team members, better rule, as well!
25 slots isn't many in a sport with so many teams. I would personally rather see more leagues have a shot at those slots than know that all the teams in one league rule. I'm totally fine with assuming every team in a top 10 slot has home teams and awesome B teams that could potentially beat lower ranked teams.
I do think someday a game between any of the top 25 teams will be a crap shoot as everyone gets better and everyone's rosters get deeper and less dependent on stars, and everyone's coaching gets better, giving them a bigger league talent pool to choose from. But for now, its hard enough getting on there in the first place (especially without getting to play in sanctioned games). So I say to those B team fans: be proud your league is ranked and let other people on the boards!!!!
rant rant rant
You really read this whole thing? You're awesome. Or you just have a lot of patience or free time. Either way, thanks.
Love, Ivanna
And just food for thought many of you have met the oly girls! you know how many of them are what do you think is happening in the oly camp now???????????!!!!!!! it made oly more mad and determend then ever hav e fun playing those girls they are out for blood now
I disagree, Lady Q. I think
I disagree, Lady Q.
I think they're HUGE nerds.
Ya for Montreal and
Ya for Montreal and London!
While I agree with London being in the power rankings as well, but at 15th does not seem to make sense, nor understanding the logic used for that, especially if two of the teams they played are home teams.
Practically all derby rankings out there are base on the charter/travel/all stars teams of each league. So to make two bouts against home teams count to that degree (that i've seen) puts the Power Rankings as a whole into question and others ranked a joke.
Oh I understand that, but
Oh I understand that, but home teams in general are not being ranked, so why count bouts against them by a travel team, especially over bouts between A travel teams? That a few bouts worth a lot more than 7+ bouts during the same time period?
So now they are 15th, are they going to stay there in the following months power rankings until a north american league haves the funds to go to London, or vice versa? Will DNN be able to keep track of UK (& Europe) along with North America? How about Australia & New Zealand to be fair? How will the comparisons work when bouts between these areas of world is still rare and few?
Ranking the global ones...
In defense of my team, in the second half of the Hustlers game - the Hustlers were putting out power lineups that contained a lot of Texecutioners.
Likewise for the Philthy Britches game - that team has 8 (!) Liberty Belles, and you can be damn sure when the score was in our favour they were putting them out. They are undefeated in their league, and they wanted to keep it that way (as would we).
Both these teams kick ass, and both put out some all-star top national ranked skaters on the track, and I am damn proud of LRG for holding our own against them.
Given that DNN is a subjective ranking, to me it seems completely reasonable for them to take whatever they think makes sense into the data they use to make their decisions. As they say in the FAQ, it's who they think would win on any given day.
I *assume* (since I am not privy to their discussions) that DNN did a bit of watching and fact finding to figure out where to rank us, and it's not JUST based on the results of a few games, but it's also not just based on a momentary gut feeling. I know they have been keeping an eye on us since the Euro tournament and since seeing our pick up team win at Rollercon against some tough opponents.
But we were pretty much an unknown quantity to most of the derby world until this point -- so I can see why to some people it seems like we came out of nowhere to a fairly high rank. That's inevitably going to make some people go "wtf?" (it makes us go SQEEEEE)
But this could happen again, as more international teams get some serious action. It will seem like they come out of nowhere - but really they have been quietly plotting and studying you guys to find out how to beat you. And some of us have been doing it a LONG time now..... ;)
(oh well, I guess our element of surprise is now officially blown. Thanks a lot DNN, sheesh!)
It is an interesting question Nameless raises though - what will happen to us or any other far away team once ranked? I don't have an answer that makes sense. I guess we can only hope that people want to try and come and play us in London a bit too -- cause we can't afford to come over to you all the time. Presumably DNN has some idea of what they will do in future. I think Australia is going to be the tough one though....thats REAL far away. It's a bit easier for Europe to get to the US and vice versa.
Bette Noir
London Rollergirls
p.s. We are just so damn excited to finally be on the radar, we are even chuffed that people are questioning our ranking! Hey at least people notice us now!
I can only suggest that global comparisons will need to look at more than just head-to-head international matchups - if it were me, I'd be hoping for local rankings to give some idea and then use the occasional international game to calibrate them against levels I'm familiar with.
Of course ... comprehensive local rankings are a fair distance away (and geographically challenging in their own right in Australia! Or more properly Asia-Pacific - we should be playing NZ teams much much more), but I hope the Great Southern Slam puts a couple of teams on the DNN radar in August.
I know we hear some good things from Kitty DeCapitate reporting back to us in London! I can't wait to see how she does with VRDL, not to mention Belle De Brawl with Northern Brisbane....we have a few former LRG all-stars back in oz now!
Aus has some SUPER athletic gals...and a skating culture. Unlike the UK. :)
Oh yea, and I think your perspective makes sense on how these teams would be ranked. It's just going to get a bit harder for DNN, not more inaccurate.
WFTDA Apprentice
Just curious, are all apprentice leagues being considered for ranking? Or is London fully WFTDA'd now (yup, I just made that a verb...I think). Not taking away anything from anyone, I'm just wondering.
Congrats London and Montreal. Exciting times!!
DNN doesn't discriminate!
Almost every team on here is a member of a WFTDA league because the overwhelming majority of competitive flat track teams are part of the organization, but being a member is not a prerequisite for being on DNN's Power Rankings. The best example of this is San Diego -- they're not eligible for WFTDA membership due to their occasional forays into the third dimension, but have consistently proven that they can hang with who we perceive to be the best 25 teams in the nation. For some more detail on our eligibility criteria, check out the Power Rankings FAQ.
Unlike WFTDA who does not allow us to compete in Nationals because of our Hybrid status, DNN considers ALL leagues when putting out power rankings. Speaking for myself and not my league I think it is bullshit that we are not able to compete at Nationals when we have proven again and again that we are at their level of play. How can you say you are #whatever in the Nation when you are picking and choosing who you rank yourselves against...you are # whatever in WFTDA, not the nation. DNN looks at all leagues, not their affiliation. Having teams see our ranking , want to play us and then realize we are not WFTDA and say nevermind is seriously f'd up! What are you so afraid of, we are not going to steal your secret handshake. Thankfully there are enough leagues out there that do not have their heads up their ass and realize that we are to be taken seriously even if we do not fit in the WFTDA box. Skate don't discriminate!
misinformed a bit? maybe you should talk to those on your league that were involved in the application process. Also you can't participate in an org's championships if you are not a member. You can't be in the superbowl if you're not a member of the NFL. that doesn't mean teams can't be as good. It's not the roller derby world championships.
I understand we can not be included because we are not WFTDA wich is excactly the point I am making. There are so many decicion made throughout the season based on a teams WFTDA ranking and getting into Nationals. To miss out on great derby opportunities simply because we are "different" is where I get frustrated. But things are slowly changing for the better and it has a lot to do with DNN power ranking. Without them us non WFTDA players would not be given the opportunity to even see where we stand. I dream of the day of DNN Roller Derby World Championships because I know it would include ALL leagues. And I am well aware of the application process.
don't get me wrong, i'd love to see world championships but like justice said, the majority of the competitive teams are WFTDA! I think it's unfair to generalize by saying a lot of teams won't play you because you're "different", that may be true in some cases but that means those people are close-minded. It may be the case that they only have limited funds and what's important to them is getting into regionals, so they may have to spend that money on travelling to play a wftda team or bringing in one. WFTDA leagues are only required to play a MINIMUM number of WFTDA sanctioned games a year to be eligible for tournaments. When there are unlimited resources and opportunities for everybody, that may change.
very true
i know we were invited to travel to you (sdft) but we had to weigh the pros and cons.
derby = fun
ca = fun
derby + ca = funx2
but then we look at the bank account, consider how much we'd have to fundraise or spend out of pocket to get there, how many vacation days we have left, etc and then after all of that, the game wouldn't count. i didn't get the impression that the thought was, "oh they aren't wftda so we don't know what rules they play by or maybe they're dangerous, etc.". it was more like, realizing that we simply have a lot of obligations (family, jobs, bills, our league, etc) and not a lot of resources. we cannot do everything we want to do so we just have to pick a few things and focus on them.
i'd love to play anyone, anywhere but really a lot of the limitations derby faces boil down to finances.
from the SDDD cheering section...
I'd mess my pants if The Wildfires could compete in WFTDA... I have the hardest time fathoming how it can't be done. The SDDD makes their own banked-track schedule outside the LADD and I am sure the beloved sisters to the north could arrange so The Swarm plays a schedule that doesn't conflict with the SDDD's ability to schedule WFTDA bouts... can't there be some sort of Camp David peace talks arbitration deally arranged? What if I agreed to supply all the alcohol? Let's make this happen in our lifetime!!!
The BM
I'm so easy.
Having teams see our ranking , want to play us and then realize we are not WFTDA and say nevermind is seriously f'd up! What are you so afraid of, we are not going to steal your secret handshake. Thankfully there are enough leagues out there that do not have their heads up their ass and realize that we are to be taken seriously even if we do not fit in the WFTDA box. Skate don't discriminate!
That's it! I love Bo Toxic now! I am so fickle.
hand shake
wait...secret handshake?! god damn, where was i when this was being taught!! i always miss out on the important information.
blame canada
wait...secret handshake?! god damn, where was i when this was being taught!! i always miss out on the important information.
We didn't teach you because you are Canadian.
Two words...
Unlike WFTDA who does not allow us to compete in Nationals because of our Hybrid status
Poor you.
a moment of your time...
Unlike WFTDA who does not allow us to compete in Nationals because of our Hybrid status
Poor you.
I believe that the back of Bo's derby shorts says it most appropriately... "Now THAT'S Classy!"
new power rankings
how do you go 4-0 and drop a spot in the rankings? just asking. so we're gonna base rankings on point spread? I feel sorry for the next team that bouts against Oly.
Feel Sorry?
The last team that faced Oly (Charm City) went up a spot in the rankings. Why are we feeling sorry?
I love that Charm City rose
I love that Charm City rose in rankings, they traveled to the West coast and played three top teams in one weekend! I hope that was an experience that pays off for them in the fall.
you have to know
we love us some Gotham... we do...
you are worried as based on who we skate? are you serious?
so we got you, we get it...
who you got?
Carolina, then
Carolina, then Dutchland...maybe Boston? Gorram, what is going on here?1?
London and Montreal
Its great to see London and montreal on there as both teams have worked very hard, especially montreal everyones neon derby darlings. However I would note that Montreal and Londons CT scores were very close, which would have them closer in the rankings I would think. I would have loved to see London take on Steel City when they were here as it would have been a close match, I've seen both teams play. However I'm sure there is difficulty when planning a tour of games in another country.
I would have put london at a very respectable 25, despite the better score v CT, as London just haven't played any ranked teams and its not fair to people like Steel City who have climbed the rankings by playing such teams.
I assume
It wasn't the CT score that put us up there, but rather the Prov score and how that triangulated with other results.
Not to mention feedback on skating from scrimmages with Gotham and Philly all-stars? Just an idea...
Versus 5 bouts against actual
Versus 5 bouts against actual all-star/travel/charter teams in actual bouts, all over 50-100 points differences? Playing home teams should not count when they are not ranked themselves, and scrimmages does not count unless it is officially declared a private bout and run/regulated like a bout.
Anyway, only way to solves this is for Montreal and London to meet, and determine the best non-US league in the world. :p In the meantime, we have another run with Boston in two weeks...
well hey
...in no way am I saying you should have only been ranked at 25...I was simply trying to figure how DNN ranked us 15. We love Montreal and don't think this is just about you and us. Although we would LOVE to play you guys, have mentioned it to Tush in fact.
And as to what should or shouldnt count...this isnt WFTDA rankings...DNN can base it on whatever they see fit IMHO.
Problem is
Providence haven't played enough recent bouts to get a really good idea...against boston scores are close to Londons, however I would then say montreal should rank higher then at least then due to the recent CT bouts. Logic says MTL would be good match for london as well.
You can go back to Eastern regionals the last time they played ranked teams other then boston...but thats too far back to count for now.
Its impossible I think to rank teams that haven't actually played top 25 teams without enough recent games for point differentials...
Scrimmages don't count, we all know that.
RMRG vs. The World in May
So Rocky Mountain (#5) plays #2, #3, #6 and #7 -- all in May! Should make for a very interesting rankings shuffle in June.
...and as an aside, RMRG must be the "virtual" #3 team now after last weekend...beating Texas considerably more soundly than DRD...right? :-)
June Rankings
Looking forward to seeing the June rankings. I'm thinking...
1. Oly
2. Rocky Mountain
3. Denver
4. Rose City
5. Rat City
...going with the "you have to actually play to be ranked" theory. :-)
Looking forward to seeing the June rankings. I'm thinking...
1. Oly
2. Rocky Mountain
3. Denver
4. Rose City
5. Rat City
...going with the "you have to actually play to be ranked" theory. :-)
I'm pretty sure Gotham is not going to fall out of the top 5. Nor should they. I still think Oly is #1 until they lose, but Gotham deserves a spot hot on their heels for sure. I agree, though, that Rocky Mountain has a legitimate claim to #3 after their tear in May. Wowsers.
DNN Top 10 for June?
1. Oly
2. Rocky Mountain
3. Denver
4. Gotham
5. Rose City
6. Rat City
7. Philly
8. Texas
9. Charm
10. Boston
Honestly think Rose can take Gotham, but I guess we will have to wait for that bout.
Too bad the West can't send 5 teams to Nationals. Because 4 & 5 are ranked higher here than 8 of the 9 teams that would make it to Nationals. Because looking below I could see doing this like college basketball. The WEST would get 5 bids for Nationals, the EAST- 4, the North- 2, the South- 1. Well so much for Dreaming.
1. Oly
2. Rocky Mountain
3. Denver
4. Gotham
7. Philly
9. Charm
(9*) Windy
(11*) Mad
8. Texas
(17*) Nashville
*Current DNN rankings
Just want to mention that Cincinnati, Brewcity, and even another West team JET CITY should be ranked over Atlanta via the Arch Rival triangulation. But that would just scramble the whole DNN Rankings now wouldn't it.
Prediction. Texas goes 0-3 (yes loses to Charm*) in June. Should be 0-4 if they would have played Rose too. The Bermuda triangle of losses in the PNW is strong!
-This is all in good fun. no hard feeling people...
I don't really expect Gotham to drop out of the top 5 either. I just find it frustrating that there's not a little more structure when it comes to scheduling. No matter how good they are, there's only ONE data point (crushing a team with a 2-4 record) from 2010 to prove it. Best I can tell, they don't play any of the other top teams until mid-August.
(No disrespect intended here...they may very well be the best team out there...I just find the lack of scheduling structure a little frustrating.) :-)
In other words
"I find your lack of bouts... disturbing."
I agree entirely with RM moving to #3 (if not #2), they have tore it up in May and I really can't see a scenario where Oly is not #1... May was an awesome month of derby, wasn't it? And we still got a weekend left!
baby picture
this baby picture is creeping me out.
hahaha!! i was thinking the
hahaha!! i was thinking the same thing
June Rankins
When do they come out?
Quoting the FAQ:
When will DNN Power Rankings be posted?
We'll endeavor to post updated rankings in the first week of each month.
So being newer to rollerderby I still have not figured out how triangualtion works. Can someone help point me in the correct direction?
If team A beats team B, and team B beats team C, then team A will beat team C. That's triangulation, anything beyond that is pure speculation. Note: triangulation is also speculation.
Triangulation, part deux
If team A beats team C, and team B beats team C by a lesser amount of points, it's likely that team A will beat team B.
Triangulation, part trois
If team A is travelling west at 100 miles per hour and team B is travelling east at 50 miles per hour...
Seriously, point spreads in derby are utterly misleading. Basing any kind of Team A will beat Team C premise, based on point spreads in derby is crazy. If you're taking point spreads into account, then you also have to equally weigh: home vs. away, surface type (some teams are better on wood or sportcourt or concrete), time of day (west travelling east or vice versa can mean you're playing at 6am or midnight relatively speaking), ref crew, injuries, etc., etc., etc.
I've seen 40 point games that were neck and neck except for two jams. I've seen 40 point games that were total blowouts and NEVER close. I've more often seen triangulation at tournaments on the same weekend that would far more strongly support the premise that point spreads are not useful when guaging a team's superiority over another.
Point spreads are useful in some sports, but in derby, you might as well be comparing one team's average height to another, in my opinion. It's nice to look at numbers, though. They're comforting.
Point Spreads
Quad is completely correct. In my opinion, rosters, injuries, how tired a team is, and skating surface are far more accurate signposts for judging a result than point spread is. It can take a team an entire half to get comfortable with a floor, and by that time the game may be rescue-able or not.
But people still make judgments based on point spreads, so why be different?
height differentials
>you might as well be comparing one team's average height to another.
I heartily agree. *Median* height is a much more effective indicator of performance.
Median height...
...has been thoroughly disproved as an effective idicator of performance, especially as most teams have an even number of players. Mean height though, is a different story (especially since some of those tall women are really mean).
actually I meant the mode.
It's been way too long since I was in a math class :-/
Our outliers are Julie "Angela Death" Adams (maybe 5'2") and Alaine "Deadly Long Legs" Olthafer (6'). But I actually think the mode of our team - the most frequent height - maybe 5'4".
And now I want to find out for sure..
Basic stats
You can still compute medians with even numbers. It's just the mean of the middle two values. So if you have a team of 6 players, with heights of 5'1", 5'2", 5'5", 5'7", 5'8 and 6'1", the median height is 5'6".
Sorry, quantgeek here on a personal mission to make statistics less scary and more accurate for the population at large. Couldn't help myself.
stats foolishness
Ooooooooo I would so love to do derby-related stats! I've been tossing around the idea of compiling and running a stats dataset for Gotham for a long time but just never get the time (and not quite sure about the end purpose, I think I'm the only one interested in that idea). But I'd make the time for DNN!
Triangulation, part quatre
And some teams just confound the theory. Just look at North Star, Brewcity and Minnesota. North Star has never beaten Brewcity, Brewcity has never beaten Minnesota and Minnesota has never beaten North Star. It's only a handful of games but it's confounding nonetheless. We're like a pretty triangle of confusion!
North Star and Brewcity go head-to-head again this summer on July 17th. It should be a great bout to watch!
It's like an MC Escher image!
Up the up staircase to infinity!
Part Five?
You are correct if we're just discussing one game or a triangulation, so two games. But, point spread is very important if you're taking an entire season into account when ranking a team. All those other things you mention should even themselves out over the course of the season (for every game where they're uncomfortable with the floor on the road, they'll probably host a team that's uncomfortable with their floor, or for every time they travel a long distance, they'll host a team that travels a long distance, etc.). Not to say those things couldn't be taken into account but it's just way too hard to get that kind of information (and I know you were just saying it tongue in cheek but I think I have to explain all this to get to my larger point).
So, if the theory is that most of that stuff will even itself out over the course of a season, then relying on point spreads as well as home vs away for multiple games is a very useful stat and really, to me, the most important one. Just like before, every time they have 2 horrible jams in a game where they give up 40 points, that will probably happen positively for them later in the season. Also, if you don't look at point spread as a specific number and more as a range, it's a lot more useful. <15 = very very close. 15-30 = very close. 30-50 = somewhat close. 50-80 = 95% sure one team is better than the other. 80-infiniti = blowout. Obviously, not every game in those ranges are going to fit with those descriptions but at least 90% will.
I was so into comparing games this way but now I'm not so sure. Montreal beat DC by 50, the Dutchland beat DC by 92. Triangulation would say that Dutchland should beat Montreal, however, the opposite happened and Montreal beat Dutchland by 121. Sure there's a lot to compare...Montreal only had what, 12 skaters when they played DC? So did Dutchland when we went to Montreal...actually 10 by the second period. Montreal traveled really far to play DC? Wait...Dutchland traveled just as far to play Montreal.
I'm not sure you can evaluate an entire season and expect it to be that balanced. Teams rise and fall throughout their season. Montreal is a team on the rise! What would be really amazing would be if teams played each other more than once in a season. I know we absolutely have this option when booking our schedules but I'm not aware of anyone who really does it, especially when games can be sparse and we want variety in our opponents. It would show a team's definitive power if they beat the same team twice within a season and it would show some of the extreme variation in a team's ability and in our sport in general if you saw an upset between the two games.
running up the score
sounds like something that a team almost has to do in order to get as good of a ranking as possible.
Not really
Whether you win by 100, 200 or 300 points, really doesn't matter.
Whether you win by 100, 200 or 300 points, really doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter when it comes to winning or losing, sure...but when it comes to rankings, I think it does matter. If two teams haven't played each other, but both have played Team X, it's reasonable to argue that the team that beat Team X by 200 points is probably (probably!) better than the team that beat Team X by 20 points. Sure, there are other factors you can look at too, but to say there's no difference between winning by 10 and winning by 100? I don't buy that.
DNN Top 10 in June
My guess is:
1. Gotham
2. Oly
3. Rocky Mountain
4. Denver
5. Texas
6. Rose
7. Rat
8. Philly
9. Windy City
10. Charm
1. Oly
2. Rocky Mountain
3. Denver
4. Gotham
5. Rose City
6. Rat City
7. Philly
8. Texas
9. Charm
10. Boston
Looks like DNN is waiting until Sunday morning
Since the game this weekend is between the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP Teams. Oly and Texas. This of course could affect where Texas sits in this ranking system. Still Gotham only has only had one game since losing to the National Champs back in Nov 09 (over 26 bout weekends ago.....)
(....all done in good-natured and playful banter) :)
A national champion vs. a contender
While I have no disagreement with Oly's rank or status, TX is not the dominant team they were 2-4 years ago. This is not to say TX sucks, but with the turnover they've had recently, the ascension of other national powers, i.e., Rocky, Denver, Gotham, and their recent defeats, particularly the massive one at the hands of Rocky, I could consider them a very good contender from the mid to the bottom of the top 10.
Texas vs Rat City
On Sunday, Texas plays Rat City, now that's a game worth waiting for.
This is not good
Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!
Texas / Rat City!
Great history,
great derby,
I can taste the PBR.
It's not good to get a hankering for a beer in the middle of the work day.
Style of Play
A 40 or 50 point win over a team you should crush DOES get reflected in the DNN rankings (and probably should).
1. This does not take style of play into account. I've seen teams beat teams by forty and the final score was 180-140. I've seen teams beat teams by forty and the final score was 100-60. The difference is style of play, defense vs. offense. It's not an easy or straight up this-number-will-work kind of comparison, because while outscoring a team in a 320 point game is impressive offensively, it's pretty weak defensively. How do they fare against a team capable of playing shut down defense? Which number will tell you that? Sorry math nerds. Point differential is just too fickle for derby.
2. And as far as "a team you should crush," says who? This is still a young sport. We've seen WAY more evidence that points are all over the place. While sometimes I would expect a team to outscore another substantially, when you get up into the top 25 teams or so, that just doesn't usually bear out. I'm not really suprised anymore by "suprising" scores. That's derby. Who won?
3. What is the point differential of a proper "crushing," by the way? See the example above. Which game was a "close" game? Is 100 points a proper crushing? Should teams be sure to run up the scores in every game to please this website? How is that a favorable thing for the sport, the teams involved, or the future of sportsmanship in derby?
Letting up
I've seen teams let up once they've got the game in the bag as well. Up 100-35, hypothetically, with only a few more jams to be played, rather than hit the track and try to score, a team can just turn around an play lock-down defense to secure the win.
I think that point spreads are somewhat useful as an indicator, they should not be the be-all end-all when determining rank.
Point spread
I understand why point spread sometimes needs to be considered with similar ranked teams but also see many times when a team could have made a bigger differential but chooses not too. When we are comfortable with our margain we will often rotate in newer players to give them some experience against a tougher team while our first string sits on the bench. It is a way to see how girls with potential will do under pressure. If we were just concerned with crushing the other team these newer girls would not get any playtime. If the score gets close again then we put back in the 1st string. Seems pretty basic as far as sports go. Especially when it is a tournament, when playing teams with such a different playing level it just makes sence to put in second string and save first string for the tougher teams, so many times just looking at a score you would think, wow I thought such n such team would have crushed such n such...and they probably would have but you have to look at the whole picture.


text:
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subset: commoncrawl