text:
The conservative group Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) announced Saturday that Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) would be expelled from the group's National Advisory Board because of his "delusional and disturbing alliance with the fringe Anti-War movement."
"It is a sad day in American history when a one-time conservative-libertarian stalwart has fallen more out of touch with America's needs for national security than the current feeble and appeasing administration," YAF's Senior National Director Jordan Marks said in a statement.
"Rep. Paul's refusal to support our nation's military and national security interests border on treason, aside from his failure to uphold his oath to the United States Constitution and defend our country and citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic," Marks continued.
According to the group's founding statement of principles, the Sharon Statement, "American foreign policy must be judged by this criterion: does it serve the just interests of the United States?"
Supporters of Ron Paul shouted down former Vice President Dick Cheney at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) Thursday, in a sign of a growing foreign policy rift on the American right.
Young Americans for Freedom helped to found the CPAC 38 years ago along with other conservative organizations, such as the American Conservative Union.
Cheney had appeared on the first day of the 2011 CPAC to introduce Donald Rumsfeld, the former Bush-era defense secretary who was scheduled to receive this year's "Defender of the Constitution Award."
That didn't sit well with "Team Paul," supporters of Rep. Ron Paul who have long called for an end to the US's foreign wars.
He drew thunderous applause for bashing the Patriot Act, US aid to foreign nations, and US military bases overseas during his speech at CPAC on Friday.
"The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed," YAF National Chairman Michael Jones added. "God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States' citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights."
When asked about being expelled from the YAF Advisory Board, a position Rep. Paul has held for more than two decades, a spokesman for the congressman seemed less than concerned.
"I hadn't heard of YAF doing anything in years, I thought they were defunct," Ron Paul's political director Jesse Benton told Politco. "Young Americans for Liberty is the group of the future."
The Republican party is fracturing, and in 6 years or less will form two parties: one more moderate (which shall retain the name Republican), and the extreme right-wing version which contains all the kooks like Coulter, Horowitz, Palin, etc that will forever mislabel themselves as the "Tea Party."
Who is jordan marks and has he served in the military…….during war time? This guy sounds like a true republican. pro war, pro military and pro hate. I bet this guy is also a gun enthusiast and thinks women should be barefoot and pregnant and he is against abortion because he is sooooo pro life. If I was paul I would be happy to be ousted from this group! Ron doesn't seem to worried though!
Good for his supporters to shout down Cheney and his partner in crime, rumsfeld.
Great! Let them quarrel internally. The more, the better. Let them use their dirty tricks and PR-companies to target their own fractions, not progressives.
As for Ron Paul, I strongly disagree with him, as I think his solutions are generally the wrong ones. But I have to admit that he seems to have an internal consistency and a significant integrity – something that is quite seldom among the republicans these days. Perhaps that's why they don't like him?
YAF is the modern name for the Nazi Youth Movement. They are one and the same. Warmongering, hatemongering, and fearmongering morons one and all.
Time to expell the yaffers from CPAC. They are an embarrassment to the conservative movement.
Funny for a gay man like Jordan Marks to be saying this.
Something I find very disturbing about all of this is that the YAF is absolutely nothing, yet every news outlets seems to be running this as a top story. Seems like a major attack from the Establishment Right and Establishment Left.
Palin, Horowitz, Coulter, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gingrich are Neo-Cons…some are in Tea Party disguise.
Ron Paul, Rand Paul, and others are anti-war Constitutionalists and Libertarians and they actually intellectually founded the Tea Party movement but it is being co-opted by the Koch brothers in the same way that Soros has co-opted the Leftists and Progressives.
LOL, yep, Bigger Government is the solution, right?
Time to expel the Neo-Cons and Straussians who love war.
The GOP coalition just blew up. :)
I love the irony of YAF labeling Paul as delusional. And I'd love a head count: how many YAFfers have joined the military and shipped out to fight Afghaniraq? Bets, anyone?
They see him as a big threat and they're already flinging poo against the *possibility* of him running for top office again in 2012.
The reason for the cold war was between us and russia raping the middle east of it's natural resources. Every empire was built stretching across Eurasia. Anyway that's the biggest single landmass on the planet and it's filled with the goods. OBL ran interference on us courtesy of the see eye ay.
Then they knew he was dying, helped him live a lil' longer when they patched him up in a US hospital in like, Dubai, and frame him on 9/11 which is ok for them because he died 12/21 or so.
Oh boy, check out the long-winded statement from YAF. Another example that proves the "white man's burden" syndrome still festers in the heart of many racists. Wretched and oppressed? Really?
YAF M .Jones,Egypt did not need the US military to grab for their G-d given rights. The US has supported that dictatorship forever. How in the hell were we spreading G-d's freedom by keeping dictators in power. If you think G-d needs the YAF maybe you need to climb up on a chair so you can see over Sarah's shoulder as the Earth opens up and yall fall in.
You are absolutely right. Watch Obama Inc. exploit this for every penny it's worth in 2012.
I agree with your statement about Ron Paul. I am a staunch Democrat, but when Paul spoke out against the Patriot Act, I did a double take. That's the first coherent statement I've heard from the Republican side of the aisle since Eisenhower spoke of the military-industrial complex.
Just gonna sit back and laugh as the Conservative movement tries to outfreedom each other. This is what happens when you embrace the crazy rhetoric. One day you'll be the evil traitor not radical enough for your former radical friends. The entire Conservative movement is a joke the only sad part is people take them seriously. Anyone who doesn't follow the party line 1000% will be deemed a heretic and should be branded a traitor.
Lol…Ron Paul isn't crazy enough for them?
Does anyone know where Michael Jones gets his drugs? I need to escape reality for a while.
The domestic enemies in the US are the Republican Conservatives and their groups like the YAF and CPAC. What they need are more heros like Dick Cheney and George W Bush! This country could be great again if it weren't for all the insane conservatives that constantly pull it down with their greed for war profits, screaming for more death and destruction disguised as patriotism!
Me too…me too.
They let it happen. The tea baggers have no clue that they've been duped.
Exploite it? He doesn't have too. The tea bagging repubs are a total embarrassment
The YAF is not 'absolutely nothing', as you claim. They have been around since 1960, mostly on college campuses. Lately several chapters have been labeled as a 'hate' group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, including Michigan State University's/YAF. This chapter and others are aligned with the Nazi Youth Movement and other white supremacists, anti-immigration groups here and abroad, and, of course, anti-LGBT. Perhaps not all the YAF embrace these ideas, but I believe that they silently do. That's what the Tea Party is all about, isn't it? Hate anyone that is in any way difference from themselves? Particularly the poor, unemployed, middle-class families, as well as gays, immigrants (legal or not), and even Native Americans. One YAF'er threatened to send smallpox infected letters to the Native American reservations. Nice little 'nothing' group? I think not!
Michael, you could be just a joke, but it is not very hard to see all the racist stuff being said, was said and will continue to be said ever since Obama announced he was running for president.
I am white and I see it very clearly. Your ranks are shrinking and I will be so glad when whites are in the minority. They are a total embarrassment to the diversity of our country. They say they believe in what the country stands for but, in reality they really mean for white repub Christians. Think about it and join the ranks of who we really are not the world where women and minorities were held back (1950s and eary 1960s).
Well, no he wasn't. He has always had those views, but back when YAF was more true to its Goldwater roots, they were a fit. YAF changed, Ron Paul didn't.
This isn't about that, that is a smokescreen to try to give YAF cover with other conservatives. The president of YAF at the last CPAC (Sorba) stood on stage and condemned CPAC for allowing GOProud to be there. He was booed off stage by people waiting for Ron Paul's speech which was running late. His last words before he left the stage were to the head of Young Americans For Liberty (which started as Students for Ron Paul.) He said "YAF is YAL's enemy! You've made an enemy of me!!" There are youtubes if you want to search for them. [ edit, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuBlFflPOIg ]
This year, knowing Ron was predicted to win the straw poll again because of his strong following with students, YAF came armed with press releases to yank Ron Paul's likely long forgotten affiliation with the group. They handed these out when Ron Paul's win was announced to taint the news cycle. They sent it out on twitter at the same time.
There is nothing to do with foreign policy involved.
Donald Trump: Ron Paul will never be elected as president. (For sure he won't win the repub nomination)
Tea bagging repubs have been so propagandized by Fox Lies, mainstream media whose boardrooms are all repub, and total rightie talk radio domination all over the country that all they do is parrot what they are told.
Our country is in danger of moving very far from what 1776 was all about. Those who have not been sucked in by the likes of Fox and company need to take back what has been lost starting with Reagan.
"Who is jordan marks and has he served in the military…….during war time?"
Funny, as a former Marine I took the bul*#$it rhetoric of treason, national security, and support our troops as a clue to how much we should quickly applaud then ignore this noise….
"Rep. Paul's refusal to support our nation's military and national security interests"
Since when is it "supporting our troops" merely to send them to combat zones for reasons fabricated and/or unknown……… AND NOT KEEP THE PEACE and keep them home
It's almost enough to make me like Paul. Almost…
Oh well, this is another indication he is the right guy for the job of President.
Obama = Banker sellout that the media duped gullible people who believe in..just like always
Hillary = Pitfall number 2, see Obama
Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich = Right people for the job, media attacks them along with all other neo cons
Yeah the Huffers and the huffers who came here and shill on every Ron Paul/Rand Paul article because they are paid shills for the machine.
Tend to agree. This will also happen with the Democratic Party. A split between the liberal wing and the moderate wing.
I can see the moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats getting together as a unified party. Really, not much daylight between moderates. It's the liberal and baggers that are 180 on virtually everything.
"Intellectually" founded? Isn't that a stretch?
The saddest part is there is no party to balance the scales. I don't care which party anyone is affiliated with, there is a balance that needs to be there. I say Ron Paul and Nader team up and do it like was reported here on RAWSTORY a week or two ago.
We can win if we overwhelm them, it just takes time, we will have an easier time this time that starting from scratch like the last election.
Big or small, who cares? It is how effective it is at achieving goals that is important.
He won't. It's delusional to think he even needs to. The conservative are imploding well enough on their own accord. Much as I'm not a Paul booster, he's the only formidable politician they have.
And they'll block him like they did in 2008
It's called selling add copy.Huffpo, Post, Rawstory or any other site must sensationalize minor issues because of the 24/7 cycle. Words like SLAM, SLAP, ATTACK provide the headline needed to drive traffic and ad copy.
Ron and little squirt Randy Paul are idiots and will only attrack a small lunitic fringe.
Since when does being conservative mean that you advocate spending over 2 billion dollars a week in The so called war in Afghanistan. I wish the conservatives were a little conservative.
I'm sorry that Ron Paul doesn't support a war that was warranted by fabricated intel
You fucking IDIOTS! It is the war driven agenda that is destroying this country, while filling the pockets of the real treasonous Banksters! All empires fall due to war expenditures and this one is falling too! Ron Paul NEVER said we should have no defenses, he simply says that we should protect our shores from foreign invasions. Personall, I think we need to protect it from insider invasions just the same. What does it matter who imprisons us, as long as we are imprisoned?
You guys are the "fringe" movement lunatics like Cheney and Rummey and the gang!
YAF is so influential and popular that they have all of 115 facebook friends lol. Pro-establishment media outlets are grasping at straws because no matter what they say about Dr. Paul he keeps gaining support from truth seeking Americans, and the truth shall set one free. The time for freedom is now.
Ron Paul is lighting brushfires of liberty in the hearts and minds of millions of freedom loving Americans, and if you read the prescient quote below by George Washington then one can conclude that his observations about the philosphy of liberty is indeed true…
"Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth." -George Washington
Why aren't members of YAF … wearing uniforms and fightin' th' infidel ?
OK…so..if it is Obama v. Paul in 2012, who does a responsible anti-war progressive vote for?
The first rule of press coverage is that there is no such thing as bad publicity; the second rule, is always make sure they spell your name correctly or maybe they are reversed–I think the name spelling is the more important of the two–one or the other!
When I read the story a couple of hours ago, my first question was whether of not Ron Paul was responsible for his own dismissal. I knew he would get all kinds of press coverage. My first sentence of the post I didn't finished at that time was, " Strange that the founders of the event would dismiss the person who just won the straw poll at the event." I don't think that any one has ever won the straw poll at CPAC and been dumped by one of the events founders any time ever before. It seems doubly strange that he was a strong supporter of the Afghanistan War when Bush first declared it, too. I though he might have engineered this to gain more credibility with the anti-war left.
But event this will ensure that people are talking about Ron Paul all the way through Valentine's Day, and that can't be bad. In two weeks few will ever remember what happened this morning but some maybe 20 percent, if he is lucky, might remember his name.
As long as 44 percent who are receiving Social Security don't know they are getting money form the government and another 40 percent of those on Medicare don't know it is a government program if Paul gets even 15 percent of those people to remember his name a month from today, he will be doing yeoman's work.
As Fonzi would say…."Exactamundo"
How doo yu think them peeple who cain't spel are gonna vot ?
and cowards … who RUN from military service in wars they claim to support
. . . but I wouldn't mind teabagging with Coulter.
I'm just being open-minded, here.
Paul doesn't really want to be seen as all that conservative anyway does he? Once he has rounded up the conservative straw poll isn't it to his advantage to be dumped by the right so that the left will welcome his anti-war stance. What more could Paul ask for than a conservative group dumping him because of his anti-war stance.
He becomes an instant victim of unreasonable conservative ire, he burnishes his principled man image because he stands up for his anti-war principles, even though he voted for the war in Afghanistan, and he gets all kinds of publicity for his principled anti-war stance from the left. Looks like win-win-win-win for Paul to me! It's a brilliant strategy.
Of course, knowing Paul isn't a regular politician, it doesn't stand to reason that he would have a press or publicity strategy, he is just going with the flow!!! I do like his spokesperson pretending not to know that the organization still existed, that was a nice touch.
Nothing more than a sponsored advertisement by the military industrial complex. Note the typical double speak "abandoned the citizens of the world" combined with "American foreign policy must be judged by this criterion: does it serve the just interests of the United States?".
Well on behalf of the citizens of the world, piss off. Clearly ruthless exploitation of the rest of the world always serves the interests of one country and is an insane measure of diplomacy.
Consider the same statement upon a personal basis, all relationships whether family or friend will be managed upon the basis of only benefiting personal interests, you will soon end up with no friends and no family.
It is apparent that the military industrial complex is going to launch a concerted attack upon Ron Paul.
I hate the new site design. Please PLEASE change it back.
Or give us the option to go back to the old design.
Treason! Treason!
A bunch of hysterics – ugly, both inside and out.
What a terrible gathering of awful, awful, awful people.
A moderate asshole or an extreme asshole is still an asshole.
No matter how you parse it up, an asshole is an asshole is an asshole.
Here we go, this guy got the memo.
I think you are vastly underestimating the size of the lunatic fringe in this country!
Such are the actions designed to bolster the policy continuance stability in the name of the plutarchy. The slandering, disparaging, dissociation, or mere name calling by only slightly influential "conservative" political action committees is as meat for the machine, including the sycophants in government, which serve the elites of the plutarchy.
Ron Paul, unfortunately, is now the proxy libertarian of the republican party, and is offered as succour to that faction of the party. Yet, he will never receive more than minimal party backing, just enough that his (R) seat in the House will remain secure. Until Mr. Paul recognizes this, he will be played. To have any authenticity in his stances of policy and position, (which are to be examined and questioned, if nothing else) Mr. Paul should sever ties and membership with the Republican party.
Yeah, Ron Paul is so SPECIAL that the only reason any person could possibly have to dislike him is if someone was paying him or her to! That's the ticket!!!
The Neo-Con grip on CPAC is definitely slipping:
% of Neo-Cons receiving votes
2008-c. 81%
2009-c. 74%
2010-c. 55%
2011-c. 53%
% of Libertarians/Constitutionalists/Paleoconservatives receiving votes
2008-c. 12-15%
2009-c. 13-17%
2010-c. 31-37%
2011-c. 42-46%
Ron Paul's placement at CPAC in votes (Placement of Neo-Cons):
2008-4th (3 of top 4 Neo-Cons)
2009-3rd (7 of top 8 Neo-Cons)
2010-1st (5 of top 6 Neo-Cons)
2011-1st (1 of top 4 Neo-Cons)
This is the YAF chairman: ""God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children."
This is Wilsonian, FDR, LBJ, Bushian war-lust. It has nothing to do with conservatism. YAF is mad because Ron Paul beat all of the warmongers in a fair vote. It indicates once more that, while conservatives are principled in opposition, the neocons suddenly appear and want to kill everyone in the world who doesn't accept their version of "democracy."
What a farce. Go Ron Paul!
Good, we need to route the bastards more and more. Actually they do it to themselves. Empire is not sustainable. Let's tell the Democrats now.
The organization has died several deaths. Several times it was nothing but a mailing list and a brand name. Fights were constant for 40 years.
I like Pat Buchanan, who once said, back in the 1960s there weren't any conservative opportunists because there weren't any opportunities for conservatives. Alas, once the cash started rolling in, so did the ringers, the warmongers, the hucksters, the self-dealers, and the fakes.
Small government and independent, self-reliant, hard-working citizens are a worthy goal. Everyone doesn't have to agree, but the principles are time-honored in principle and in history. When a bunch of hacks takes over the name "conservative" — Richard Perle? Wolfowitz? Cheney? It's enough to make you gag.
One student asked Ron Paul, "what should we do now?" Ron Paul said — YOU decide /what to do. that's what's so great about freedom!
What a guy.
"If you want government to intervene domestically, you're a liberal. If you want government to intervene overseas, you're a conservative. If you want government to intervene everywhere, you're a moderate. If you don't want government to intervene anywhere, you're an extremist."
— Joseph Sobran
Most of these morons will be voting for Obama again in 2012 does not say much for them.
Sure would like to see some of these young Americans shut the F**K up, sign up, and go kill someone in anger, and then come back, and tell Ron Paul how treasonous he is. So sad to watch the youth of America get wasted on war, corruption, and neo-con politics. Pathetic.
Dr. Paul,
You could not have asked for a better recommendation:
Ron Paul and Ralph Nader 2012 Dream ticket
versus the Republicrat Nightmare.
The Constitution Party — has a nice ring.
Who is Jordan Marks?
Answer here:
Kucinich lost many of us with his support of Obama out of nowhere. But to be fair Ron both admire each other. I said back in 2005 that Ron and Dennis should run as Independents on the same ticket. It would be the landslide of all landslides. Nobody would touch them.
But alas our "system" is not built for such an alliance, or we tell ourselves that. I dunno.
Alan Greyson is a good egg too. Pete Schiff too. Lew Rockwell, Pauls old friend is. Haven't heard from Mckinney in ages. There's a hand full of others to go with Ron but I have an admiration for Dennis that is near mine for Paul.
And Ron always said if he had to pick someone from the 'other side' it would be Kucinich.
I try not to think about them together on a ticket though because I get the same feeling I get pondering what I would do if I found a few million bucks in a bag on the beach.
Another reason I hate the 2 party monopoly.
Might take a few more pres elections of going left and right electing Neocon and neolibrals before they catch on.
Hopefully not the fringe that can't spell "attract" and "lunatic".
The Neocons ALWAYS hated Ron. They railed on him in 2008 and nearly spit on him the whole campaign season.
Neocons AND Neoliberals realize just how much a threat he would be if he even stepped in the White House, even at his older age. He would undermine the whole operation which would realistically throw this country into a long overdue "correction' stage politically and financially. All the usual suspects would be on notice from all sides of the game with nowhere to run because the re-enactment of Constitution/Libertarian based Governance would choke them off.
The one man who makes them all shake.
I say, bring the ruckus.
The ridiculous & untruthful republican YAF choose to ignore the fact that the wars are based on complete & total lies – Wars for corporate profits we are spending trillions of dollars on…ALL for corporations & the wealthy world imperialism – The STEALING from weaker nations – Over 200 American corporations are receiving millions & billions of dollars from our taxes, the same corporations who are selling their war products, weapons are the ones profiteering from the decade long wars based on lies.
We are the illegal invaders. We are the occupiers of sovereign nations. We are the imperialist stealing countries resources, oil & exploiting their cheap labor all for corporations profits – Which is why the republicans/corporations NEVER want these deficit draining wars to end – The republicans are quite aware with by continuing these wars for outrageous corporate profits they can also destroy all social programs, destroy the "New Deal" as well as health care for all – No money for anything else but fight the wars for richest few
These greedy lying republicans certainly aren't there putting their life on the line, dying in their wars for profit they created though terror & the promoting of fear . – They choose only to reap profits via our tax dollars and our military….The greedy American corporate imperialist are the real terrorist of the world, promoting lies to create fear in the American people to create profit for themselves – But of course the republicans always point their lying greedy hateful fingers at others of what they themselves are exactly doing…..attacking the truth while they are robbing you blind.
I remember them as the Young Americans for Fascism during the Vietnam War, they of course wouldn't fight they would just complain about the war protesters.
This is how little these Neo-Cons know or how how much they choose to ignore, this Republican Youth group says
"Rep. Paul's refusal to support our nation's military and national security interests border on treason, aside from his failure to uphold his oath to the United States Constitution and defend our country and citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic," Marks continued.
Don't these people even know that you can't go to war without a declaration of war and that to do so is in direct violation of the constitution and therefore TREASON.
I can't stand progressive republicans and democrats, its time to make them the fringe and have a alliance between Libertarians and liberals, between Ron Paul and Ralph Nader. Flip the political spectrum inside out, move the moderate republicans and democrats to the fringe and us to the middle. If all you have to do is plant your flag and scream the loudest CLAIMING your the middle then i will. WE ARE THE MIDDLE AND THE SO CALLED MODERATE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE THE FRINGE.
"delusional and disturbing alliance with the fringe Anti-War movement."
The fact that anyone can even make a statement like this in a serious tone is what is scary.
Establishment republicans implying what is or isnt treason, is a mockery at a level that only reinforces their total contempt for the public's collective ability to reason.
The impunity from which they operate (utterly transparently) is terrifying, when one factors in that this late in the game some are still completely blind.
only fools -Beck and Baggers -believe that George Soros has co-opted the Left.
"The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed," YAF National Chairman Michael Jones added. "God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States' citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights."
Only a religious fanatic and whack job could write something so retarded as that.
"we should protect our shores from foreign invasions" Like the Multinationals that are buying all of our industry,infrastructure and soon the NYSE.
I only like Paul's stand against war. His economic policies are as goofy as his son Rand.
Hey, kids. Grow up.
Don't include me in your "we". I'm a disabled Vet on Social Security. Goofy and Fucking Goofy Paul don't want me to have an income or a life. Not everyone is privileged.
I just threw up in my mouth a little…
All the blame rests in Congress for EVERYTHING including the privatization of our monetary system and the Banksters control over us and our Judicial system!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ron Paul the definition of a mainstream Republican, since he's won the last two straw polls at CPAC?
The Koch brothers have a long, long history with the Libertarian Party which goes back to the formation of the Cato Institute with Koch, Crane and Rothbard. Rothbard left to from the Ludwig von Mises Institute with Lew Rockwell. The Kochs have been accused of sabotaging Ron Paul's 2008 bid.
I like the Elfan Texan. I don't agree with all his Libertarian views, but he's way better than the rest of em.
"To have any authenticity in his stances of policy and position, (which are to be examined and questioned, if nothing else) Mr. Paul should sever ties and membership with the Republican party."
I absolutely agree with you. And divide and conquer is exactly the tactic that the plutocrats have sucessfully used repeatedly to keep us divided and distracted fighting each other. And Paul could just as easily be another puppet doing the bidding of his masters, the plutocrats. So for Paul to gain any credibility (at least with me), what you suggest is exactly what must be done. While I agree for the most part with Paul's stance on the wars (assuming that it's genuine), his libertarian ideology on domestic issues, as well as his staunch support of deregulation and the corporate power structure of the plutarchy that has undermined our govt gives rise to serious doubts about him–and combined with the fact that he has been in office now for over 30 years, it leads me to question his sincerity and integrity.
I wonder how many of the YAF are serving on active duty or are vets or are combat vets. I bet not many if any at all. Easy to support wars when you can send others peoples kids to do the fighting. A bunch of rich white kids with silver spoons in their mouths. Shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like it's pretty hard to keep up with the acceptable GOOPer party line.
This is just fucking insane! WTF does wanting PEACE have to do with anything these horse's asses are spewing?!
You really want my opinion where this goofball belongs………
We have nothing to bind us as Americans except our hatred of others.
Why does Ron Paul hate America so much to take away the one thing we share?
In 2008, my mind was blown at how diabolical and slimy the establishment was towards Ron Paul. They tried to ban him from conventions, they completely blacked him out on MSM news. On voting tally boards on the MSM, they actually refused to put his name on the percentage of votes he garnered and listed him as "other". Someone in the upper echelon of power is very afraid of Ron Paul.
More names and innuendo…..so which one of you uh, well informed individuals, can give a name as to who it is that YOU feel should be president.
I kinda agree with your statement overall. But it's important to know what the phrase "white man's burden" actually means. It implies racism cloaked within patriarchal views and self-interest.
Message to YAF's Senior National Director Jordan Marks: http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
Wake up.
If YAF wants to keep this idiotic war going, why don't we replace our soldiers with all of them instead. Give them some guns and ammo, put them in Afghanistan and see how long they want to fight. Or how long they last. At 1 million dollars a year per soldier, we could not only save a lot of their lives but we could save tons of money.
Somehow, you don't mind that ObaMao is continuing Bush's policies…including renewing the Patriot Act.
Btw, the Financial Institutional Complex finances, and profits off of both sides of the Military Industrial Complex…have you noticed the number of Goldman Sachs employees littering the ObaMao administration?
"I can see the moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats getting together as a unified party."
i cant. and they arent that similar, they just seem that way when compared to the extremes they are forcing themselves to associate with… the only reason both sides stick with their crazy fringes is for the numbers.. and unless those fringes tear THEMSELVES off and fight the so-called "middle" tooth and nail to create their own party. the split wont happen easily or any time soon…
even though the moderates on both sides have things in common in the way they live their lives and want the country to go socially, they still have their own separate and distinct ideologies on how to run the country to reach that happy fantasy of bland perfection.
there should be 4 parties(more actually)… but then our govt really should be overhauled for the 21st century… but why would that happen when we have politicians who know the game so well.. if it aint broke for them, why would they fix it?
"I hadn't heard of YAF doing anything in years, I thought they were defunct," Ron Paul's political director Jesse Benton told Politco. "Young Americans for Liberty is the group of the future."
this made me laugh..
"The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed. God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States' citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights", YAF National Chairman Michael Jones said as he stood on a podium carrying a cross and wrapped in an American flag that covered his brown shirt uniform with Nazi insignias and exposed only his jack-boots.
"American foreign policy must be judged by this criterion: does it serve the just interests of the United States?"
That line makes me want to vomit. These people are the reason the rest of the world burns our flags in the streets
Huh? Please explain HOW Soros has "co-opted Leftists & Progressives" I'm sorry but your false-equivalency is just pure BS!
The Marxist, of course.
Jeebus Cripes, does Jordan Marks actually believe all that drivel he spouted?
And has he been caught sucking anyone's cock yet?
Hey jerk wads. Opposing needless war isn't treason, it is patriotic. Lying about threats to our nation is treason….
Holy Crap. Man! You're the kind of guy he's pulling for! He wants to funnel the war chest money back into into veterans services!
Was that supposed to be just one sentence?
that's why i can't figure out why he keeps saying he's republican
Jste Cech?
She (he? it?) would probably bite your sack off.
He'll DEFINITELY be caught giving someone a blowjob soon. Looks like real military material, too.
We didn't say that. You ASSumed it.
So in order to be a conservative you need to be PRO WAR? Lets get this straight we are not in a declared war and the war is dragging on for some 10 years now with no end in sight and no definition of success , no leader topple, no land to take , no govt to overthrow. We fight it like a child plays whack a mole at the amusement park . An uprising there we go , an uprising there we go. On 9/11 we lost two buildings and some 3000 people. Since then we have lost another 1000 of our own spent several hundred billion dollars, killed millions of innocent civilians and left DU (depleted uranium) to play havoc with not only their population for years to come but also our own service men. Does this really make any sense to anyone?
Many of us mind it A WHOLE LOT.
Time to ban the CPAC completely.
I hope you're right.
If I had money I would sponsor a group. Young Americans for thinking for themselves. First they would be encouraged to read English language foreign newspapers. They would be encouraged to visit the library at least once a week and read at least 5 newspapers and 5 periodicals. Viewing and listening to talking heads is dumbing down everyone. Read read read, question question question.
He is delusional. He's also a neo-confederate, as are all libertarians.
It's also nauseating and cliched.
It is pretty nauseating, isn't it? Sad for somebody so young to already be hopelessly and willingly brainwashed.
Yes! (Seriously!)
When the Pentagon takes up more than half the government there comes a time when it is treason not to question it. And your "Conservative" credentials come into question when you unquestioningly write checks you can't cash.
Young American Fascists
YAF is a neo-con outfit. Don't doubt that for two seconds.
That chickenhawk Jordan Marks can kiss my ass. His idea of national security is sending someone else to do his fighting.
"Young Americans for Freedom support Franklin Graham's ministry of TRUE liberty to Abu Ghraib prisoners.
I am a Ron Paul fan and have been for a long time. Conspiracy theories like "they are paying shills to post negative comments on Raw Story" are why people don't take his supporters seriously. That being said…I do see your overall point about silencing dissent as being a problem. I mean, that is what this article is about anyway.
Obummer is what happens when the opposition goes stark raving mad following a couple of drug addicts(Beck and Limpmember) around as gods. He can wander around doing as he pleases to his base because what they going to do after all. As far as Obummer following Bush's policy you have to understand that a lot of policy the elected people have little control. The bureaucracy itself is driving a lot of the nastiest stuff. Bureaucrats tell Obummer what he's going to do.
My point exactly. I am always amazed at how pro war people are as long they aren't the ones actually fighting the war. I'm sure marks has never even been in the military in peace time or war. He just has a lot of hot air and a big mouth.
Thanks for the link, it told me all I need to know about Mr. Marks!
Good for Paul. The last war that America fought that had anything to do with any direct threat to our country was that against Japan and Germany a long time ago. All the skirmishes since that time have been purely political/business related. Now Afghanistan is just a place we send our kids to die for a gas pipeline and nothing else. In the end we will pick up and leave just like the Russians did. The only reason we don't quit now is to prevent our economic adversaries getting the natural resources of the area. No gas in Afghanistan you say? No, but there is plenty in the adjoining countries just north of there that lots of people want.
The conservatives who are in favor of this war should fund it and send their own kids there so far as I am concerned. All those who claim to follow Jesus should denounce the violence of war.
Speaking of morons. How many sentences did you intend to have in your post?
The "Bohemian" piqued my curiosity and I asked if you were Czech.
I've had a few real life encounters with these Nazis, myself, over the decades.
It is indeed a sad day in American history when war mongers and right wing extremists have any place at all in national politics. Let's put Jordan Marks on the next plane to Afghanistan to head up the next platoon to face a fire fight. This obese arm-chair general would wet himself at the very thought of it. But he is more than happy to send your sons and daughters to die for nothing.
The same thing happenned to Kucinich.
It obvious that Antiwar Candidades will NEVER be Elected as president or any High Gov Position of the US Empire.
That will perhaps be for the Next episode… After the Fall..
Young Americans for Freedom of Endless War , modeled after Swift Boat Liars for Truth… ;^)
Paul's refusal to support our nation's military industrial complex is fiscally responsible…?
A lot of the discussion below seems to be whether we are for or against Ron Paul. I am against the military-industrial complex and the doctrine of perpetual war. If Ron Paul is willing to stand up and denounce American militarism, whatever the reason, we should support him on this point. The antiwar movement is small and set upon on all sides. We need to take allies wherever we can get them, especially one with a following such as Ron Paul.
Ron uses the Republican title to get his Libertarian policies passed. He has made it no secret he wants Confederate Rule back and has spent his life undermining racial equality. His son Rand was so excited when running for a Senate seat he thought he was running for President. Randy demanded that Obama come and debate him, then was told it was a Senate seat he was running for. Randy rushed out to the press and expressed his mission to repeal the discrimination bill as he felt citizens should be able to discriminate. His Dad quickly told him to say he didn't mean that and admires Dr. King to assure the minority vote. Ron is from the old school of deep rooted racist and nothing will change that.
I mind it very much. I wish Obama would not have advocated the extension for the Patriot Act. Obama has very much disappointed me on this matter. He has also disappointed me by not taking a stronger stand against the bailed-out bankers. FDR told the bankers to go to hell, and meaningful reform took place. This is also when Glass-Stegall was passed, during the Great Depression. Now, we have corporate pandering on both sides of the aisle. I am a staunch Democrat because they do not want to dismantle central authority held by the national government. Try enforcing civil rights in 50 different republics, see where that will get you!
….or maybe if they have a problem with overt racism. Or dismantling of all social safety nets.
I like that Mr. Paul speaks his thoughts truthfully, and seems an honest fellow.
I just don't like his positions, and the people he's let write for him for years espousing rabid racism. Nor do I mistake the views of his progeny for simple libertarianism. He's a racist, too…..and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Mad props for calling out Rummy and Cheney. Still, neither of the Pauls will EVER get my vote. They do not represent any American who's not white. Fuck 'em.
"Young Americans for Freedom"
Their freedom. Yours? not so much.
Kinda makes you wonder why Mr. Paul didn't beat them to it, and resign. And that, my friends, says a hell of a lot about Mr. Paul.
Some people have courage enough to stay and try to influence for the better.
Jordan Marks: he's pro War, and his Mom couldn't be prouder of her chubby little son:
Of course, they both assume someone else will be fighting these Wars to protect little Jordan's privileged position in the Global Economy.
Someone like Corporal Aaron Mankin and his wife, Lance Corporal Diana Mankin:
or Iraq War Veteran Kortney Clemons:
"Rep. Paul's refusal to support our nation's military and national security interests border on treason, aside from his failure to uphold his oath to the United States Constitution and defend our country and citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic" whined Jordan, wheezing for breath after this strenuous outburst of patriotic fervor.
I never heard of this group until now. By this statement, "God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States' citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights." they must be embarrassed by the Revelation coming out of Egypt and the Middle East that America gives lip service to Democracy and Freedom within America, but backs brutal Dictators good for America's Business interests outside of America.
I suspect they don't even know about God's call the Nations should beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks and the Nations learn war no more. They would surely label anyone echoing God's call as being anti-Christ.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plow shares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:4
I doubt they ever saw this speech from the last real Commander-in-Chief, General/President Eisenhower.
They are blinded and deceived by the false prophet/profit, not knowing they are bringing forth this vision to reality,
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Revelation 16
Armageddon is derived from Har Mediggo, a place now located in the Israeli Occupied Palestinian territories. When the Revelation was given 2000 years ago, Armageddon/Har Mediggo was located in the Roman Province of Palestine. It's been a long time coming, and we're the 1st generation to be able to see it building on the horizon in this material world. Our silence is consent.
You are the one being duped, boy. Read this, it couldn't hurt you to.
hey you read, read this – http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/wolf21/English
The Zombie? Isn't that necrophilia?
Like Colin "I sold you this war" Powell?
Hanging with racists and war-mongers doesn't, in the main, seem to change them much, does it? That alone argues against Mr. Paul's judgment. Besides, there's no evidence of his trying to influence them for the better, is there? Nor any of the other hard-right racists that he's tacitly accepted as supporters.
Thanks for that – very good and true.
Back under Bush II, I was supposedly a paid shill for Saddam.
Now I'm a shill for "the machine"?
WTF? Where is this money you speak of, I could sure use it!!!
Like so many other young Americans, those that make up this group are without a clue.
Good article. Thanks for the reference. Naomi Woolfe is a thinker whose voice I listen to and respect.
That doesn't, however, change my mind about the Pauls. Racism has no place in our governance, and both have shown consistently that they see no problem siding with, enlisting the help and resources of, and quietly espousing the views of racist groups.
No…the Pauls are just another budding political dynasty that should be exposed, and nipped.
Time to ban dumb firemen.
Because he is.
You want to know what kind of people get their hackles up, pointing fingers and screeching, "Traitors! Traitors!" at the drop of a hat? You want to know what kind of people behave like that, outside of a cinema Nazi in a "B" movie?
I'll tell you what kind of people behave that – repulsive, hateful and crazy people behave like that. That's how repulsive, hateful and crazy people behave. And that's what kind of people go to awful conventions like CPAK. Awful, repulsive sick people who in a healthy society would not be tolerated getting even remotely near to the levers of governance whatsoever.
You wouldn't know economic policies if you tripped over them down your garden path.
John you might like this too and pass it along.
Anti-war is now FRINGE!!!!!
See, they are admitting they are all murderers.
Does that ring loud and clear enough for you Ron Paul fanboys? Like I said, we Progressives share many of the same ideals as you (Stop the Wars, Investigate the Fed, Accountability, End the War on Drugs, Investigate 9/11, and STOP SPYING ON AMERICANS!) except we actually believe in people collaborating on (you call them 'socialist') things like Post Offices, highways, the Internet, reducing pollution, and universities.
Ron Paul's biggest problem has always been that damned '(R)' after his name.
"Rep. Paul's refusal to support our nation's military and national security interests border on treason, aside from his failure to uphold his oath to the United States Constitution and defend our country and citizens against all enemies, foreign and domestic," said the domestic enemy.
Bet not one of the of Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) will serve in the military service for Aghangastan or Iraq. Not in the front lines. A bunch of yellow chickenhawks.
Hahaaaaa!! Post of the day, for me anyway.
Yay war!!!!!
Please don't wish someone to be murdered. That is crazy.
lol spoken like a true white man….
There already is one of those.
Those who like that libertarian bullcrap should move to India that's their utopia. And oh yeah, have fun wallowing in human fecal matter.
You're wrong.
I love hearing about the Pauls and being racist. Please provide us with evidence to support your allegation.
What is sad is that war mongers like Cheney are seen as patriots and peaceful men like Ron Paul are seen as treasonous, according to Marks.
"God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children." ? Really, Really? I'm sure the millions and millions of slaughtered, crippled, orphaned, widowed southeast asians, arabs, and Americans would strongly disagree with this military wind up doll. These warpigs could justify napalming a preschool if the circumstances were right.
No denny – you can sit this one out.
The Young Americans for Fascism, if they truly wish to think the following: "The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed," really ought to read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Perhaps they would then recognize this country's systematic betrayal of those values over most of its history. Or perhaps they have read it and are actively practicing all those tactics they learned about. I swear 1984 must be required reading for these evil pricks.
That chart leaves out servicing the debt. That is our largest expense, I believe, then military. They both must go.
And you're prejudiced.
What's your point?
If, as you seem to imply, you think white folk shouldn't call out and decry racism where they apprehend it, I disagree. And there's not a lot to laugh about in our situation.
"The last war that America fought that had anything to do with any direct threat to our country was that against Japan and Germany a long time ago."
I think we arranged for that war too.
Ron Paul was the victim of Fox News "breaking" a story during his presidential campaign about him being a racist and writing racist newsletters. Paul didn't meet the neo-con profile that they wanted. The rest of the media picked-up on it, put it out there, and people like you ate it up. Never mind that it was all proven to be wrong and the media refused to retract what they put out there. Austin NAACP President Nelson Linder, who has known Paul for over 20 years, came out said that it wasn't true and it was an attack on Paul in an effort to discredit him. Other than the same rehashed Fox News story there is no evidence to support what you say.
You are mistaken about his being racist. Has it ever occurred to you that smearing the man's reputation is a tactic used to discredit him precisely because his position is threatening to the establishment?
You are posting an article written a year ago. wait until you get to what happened in the last six months, then see what you think,,,, if you do
Reminds me of Mark Twain's War Prayer.
O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweetpeace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe.
O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
Rand seems to have a rather uneasy relationship with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and does not seem to mind denial of public accommodations based on racial or other preferences.
I don't think either is a bad person, as are Messrs. Rumsfeld and Cheney. I just don't feel like his commitment to civil rights and civil liberties is as deep and genuine as it needs to be as a civil servant at the federal level.
Besides…he's in the Republican party, in the same state that Mitch McConnell represents. The Republicans have not, for long years, had any interest in either minority or civil rights.
See also yvonneo's comment. She has provided some links that should satisfy some of your curiosity.
I am aware of that, but still it speaks to remaining open minded. That is important all the time, not just last year. The original good ideas are not dead. They've been co-opted, but they still exist and we can appreciate them.
Whoa, are you aware of the whole Arron Barr, US Chamber of Commerce, Justice department, Wikileaks, Glenn Greenwald, Anonymous story that came out this week? Please Google any combination of the above terms for last week's big story. Or you can just read this – http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html
If you really think paid message board hacks are the stuff of conspiracy theories, you are clueless.
A couple of interviews he gave with NPR and Rachel Madow were enough to make me uneasy. No doubt he's a great guy, and intelligent. And were he running in an election where the other choices were worse I'd vote for him.
I just don't have confidence that he cares for people more than power.
Kentucky's a beautiful place, but the politics there runs a bit conservative for my tastes.
Now, if only the Republican party would kick him out I might vote for him.
How about the Liberty Party? No war, real money, small government.
Let's all attack the missing comma because we have nothing else to say!
Yet I bet these clowns would be the first to argue against the god given right to be gay
Young Americans for Freedom are a group of fools. We spend more on "defense" than every other country in the world PUT TOGETHER. how the hell is asking for some SANITY in this area "next to treason"? In fact, continuing what we are doing now IS treason. It is treasonous to destroy everything that keeps your citizens alive for the benefit of the M/I complex. It is treasonous to bankrupt your country so that rich companies can steal every penny in your country, leaving you with NO future worth protecting at all. The YAF should keep it's flapping gums shut until they are old enough to have some SENSE. They are idiots and fools, nothing else. I would say that anyone who has lost these people's allegiance is on the right track, and I'm not even a Ron Paul supporter. I respect the man, but not his ideas. But anyone who has enough of a soul to still understand that war is the single worse evil man can EVER do to another, they get FAR more of my respect than these idiots in the YAF. Fools, one and all.
I am not as big a fan of Rand as I am Ron. I believe Rand did a very poor job of explaining his position on the Civil Rights Act. Maddow already knew his position, but it was very easy for her to lead him down the path she wanted, because he just wasn't very interview savvy. A libertarian would know that Rand was talking about personal property rights, while others would interpret it as wanting to do away with the CRA rather than just one portion of it.
To give an example, if you own a small restaurant, do not employ anyone outside your family, do not take any government assistance, then you should have the right to serve whomever you want because it is your property — but the gov. says you have to serve everyone regardless of race, religion, handicap, etc. In some cases the gov. may force you to install handicap toilets, etc. even though it is not in your best financial interest. And suppose you are a contractor and go to someone's house to give a quote. You determine that the person is Jewish and you don't want to do business with that person, so you decide not to take the work. It's hard for gov. to force you to take that work. But if you have a place of business (such as a store) it is not so easy to not do business with the Jewish person. So the CRA creates this area of infringment on personal property rights that is not always equally enforcable.
Paul's stance on the Civil Rights Act isn't too great either–he's opposed to it (like father-like son) and he's anti-choice, pro deregulation and supports many other issues that I oppose–in short, I don't trust him. About the only issues I have found so far to agree with him about is that he opposes the wars and wants to take on the Federal Reserve–but then so did Alan Grayson; unfortunately, he was not re-elected.
Now if progressives want to get behind Alan Grayson or Russ Feingold as potential primary candidates in 2012–I'm all for it. But I can't support Ron Paul–no thank you.
I'm not so sure, just about everyone of these tea party guys have hired lobbyists.
Thanks for the link. I read it. And I still stand by my original post. The YAF and much of the TeaBaggers have similar ideologies to the Nazi Youth Movement and even the KKK.
Some popular Tea Party Ideas, including actual Bills:
1. The Georgia Bill That Would Ban Drivers' Licenses; 2. Forcing Science Teachers to 'Question' Evolution; 3. Let's Use Tax Dollars to Finance Anti-Government Militias!; 4. Health-Care Mandates Are Unconstitutional, So Let's Force Everyone to Buy Guns; 5. The 'Don't Call Those Sluts Victims!' Act.
How do you like 'em now?
Unforunately, a lie is halfway around the world while the truth is still putting his boots on.
Are these the young chicken-hawks who need a hand held mirror to see their dick's?
never heard of them. at this point, ANYTHING with Paul and Nader involved will be a dream because they hold to reason and believe in the sheet of hemp that keeps this thing together. the republicrats lost their faith in it a long time ago.
It's a pretty significant portion.
Has anyone heard of the YAF? Would anyone have heard of them outside of this story? They do not influence national policy and Mr. Paul's movement will not be damaged.
I wonder how many from the "Young Americans for Freedom ", who booted RP, have enlisted in the Marines to go over to Afghanistan?
Why should progressives support someone who opposes the Civil Rights Act? Or a woman's right to choose? And why should people support someone who supports something that could cause catastrophic damage to our nation and the world in general–such as shutting down our govt? Adoration of and support for Ron Paul is not what I would call, uh, well-founded. There are others far better for the job than Ron Paul–such as Alan Grayson and/or Russ Feingold, for example.
Agreed. It's a gray area to draw a line between the government ensuring equality for everyone and infringing on someone's personal property rights. I know I don't want the government to always tell me who I can or cannot do business with. The problem is that the Civil Rights Act is judged as sacred and one cannot have opposing positions or discussions on it without being judged harshly.
Whooh. For a moment there I thought it was a Christian conservative group that was snarling at the anti-war movement. That would be the height of apostasy. Oh wait…..
You know who 'Young Americans for Freedom' are, don't you? It was Sorba, the president of that group that stood on stage at CPAC 2010 and 'condemned' CPAC for allowing GOProud to attend. He was booed off stage and blamed Ron Paul, since the people who booed him off were waiting to hear Ron Paul speak. In fact, his last words as he slithered off the stage were to call out the head of Young Americans for Liberty (which started as Students for Ron Paul) and say 'You have made an enemy of me!'
Here's the youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuBlF…layer_embedded
So this time, knowing Ron Paul was going to win the straw poll again, his group came armed with notices they were yanking an association I am certain Ron Paul had long since forgotten he still had, back from when YAF started as a Goldwater conservative group. They handed these out and started tweeting that they were yanking the association as Ron Paul's win of the CPAC straw poll was announced.
Ron Paul has had the same foreign policy for 40 years, including back when YAF gave him their highest award. None of this is about foreign policy, it is about meanspirited minds.
Good article. Thanks.
The U.S. has been involved in mischief around the world since its inception. Assassinating heads of state, supporting terrorists in the attempt to topple regimes we don't like, invading Third World countries and murdering millions on our way to empire. But I have come to the conclusion that many Americans are as degenerate as our government.
Now we have these tea party loons who want to turn the country over to the rich who have caused us all this misery. Oh yeah, the rich have gotten religion and turned off their bubble machine (have you noticed the price of oil?) so they can share their plundered loot with the rest of us. That is why I call the tea partiers loons.
We have seen all the sacrifice of the Egyptians trying to get rid of our despot whom we have supported all these years. Now the Obama administration seems to be supporting the people by telling Hosni Mubarak he should leave. Don't be fooled. Obama and the likes of Sarah Palin are already doing their fear-mongering about Muslim extremists in an effort to replace Mubarak with another U.S. and Israeli toady.
Not to even mention Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Granada, Lebanon, Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan.
Former Marine Corps Gen. Smedly Butler
War Is a Racket
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War Is a Racket is the title of two works, a speech and a booklet, by retired U.S. Marine Major General Smedley D. Butler. In them, Butler frankly discusses from his experience as a career military officer how business interests commercially benefit from warfare.
After he retired from the Marine Corps, Gen. Butler made a nationwide tour in the early 1930s giving his speech "War is a Racket".[1] The speech was so well received that he wrote a longer version as a small book with the same title that was published in 1935 by Round Table Press, Inc., of New York. The booklet was also condensed in Reader's Digest as a book supplement which helped popularize his message. In an introduction to the Reader's Digest version, Lowell Thomas, the "as told to" author of Butler's oral autobiographical adventures, praised Butler's "moral as well as physical courage".[2]
* 1 Book
* 2 See also
* 3 References
* 4 External links
[edit] Book
In War Is A Racket, Butler points to a variety of examples, mostly from World War I, where industrialists whose operations were subsidised by public funding were able to generate substantial profits essentially from mass human suffering.
The work is divided into five chapters:
1. War is a racket
2. Who makes the profits?
3. Who pays the bills?
4. How to smash this racket!
5. To hell with war!
It contains this key summary:
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."
In another often cited quote from the book Butler says:
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
The book is also interesting historically as Butler points out in 1935 that the US is engaging in military war games in the Pacific that are bound to provoke the Japanese.
"The Japanese, a proud people, of course will be pleased beyond expression to see the United States fleet so close to Nippon's shores. Even as pleased as would be the residents of California were they to dimly discern through the morning mist, the Japanese fleet playing at war games off Los Angeles."
Butler explains that the excuse for the buildup of the US fleet and the war games is fear that "the great fleet of this supposed enemy will strike suddenly and annihilate 125,000,000 people."
It's not so strange Paul supported the Afghanistan War. Early on after 9/11 he said that we shouldn't be wasting our time/money/lives in Iraq, but rather should be going after the terrorists in Afghanistan, which is where our intel said they were. As time went on and the terrorists were no longer within reach, his support of going into Afghanistan began to wane, and of course now he wants us out. Afghanistan was the Soviets' Vietnam (aka Charlie Wilson's War from our side); and now it is becoming a second Vietnam for us, as we continue to bomb villages in Afghanistan/Pakistan with UAV drones.
Paul has always supported a strong military to protect the US, including going after terrorists. He has never supported going into countries without cause and fighting unwinnable, undefined, undeclared wars.
Yeah that is why he won the CPAC straw poll. Looks like it is the shills at YAF that are out of touch. Maybe they could explain how ten years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, countries who have no military to speak of is a matter of national security and a threat to the US? Perhaps they should look up the words freedom and conservative in the dictionary in search of thier first clue… Sigh!
YAF would seem to now better stand for "Young A-holes for Fascism" considering this troubling turn of events
I have a feeling that National Director Jordan Marks is an AIPAC planted, Zionist shill. Please correct me if I am wrong.
"expelled"???? Is this jr high school, Komsomol, or a sorority? I am also curious how many of the "Young Americans for Freedom" enlisted? Zero?
Just for your info, Alan Grayson is the one who took up Ron Paul's cause in the House to get Democrats on board with the Audit the Fed bill. He highly respects Paul and probably doesn't believe that Paul opposes the Civil Rights Act. I've never heard Ron oppose the CRA, although they certainly have tried to tag his son Rand with that one. As far as a woman's right to choose (one that I personally believe in) you are confusing Paul's belief that it is a state's rights issue, not a constitutional issue. It is true as a ob/gyn Paul has stated that he doesn't believe in abortion, and he believes that it is the Constitution which should be protecting the unborn. I may not agree with his position, but I certainly understand it; after all he is a baby doctor.
And what "something" is it that Paul is advocating that would shut down our government? I've had a number of discussions with people who say the same thing. They usually say stuff like "he wants to get rid of the Dept. of Education and The Federal Reserve." Well, DoE didn't even start until 1980 (approved in 1979). As far as I can tell our school system was better before the DoE. As for The Fed, it is run by a bunch of banks that don't have your or my best interest in mind. Contrary to what the media will tell you, the markets have been more volatile under the direction of The Fed — you can actually find the data at The Fed member websites. Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, etc. all warned against a central bank (e.g. The Federal Reserve). I don't know if that was the kind of stuff you're refering to, but a blanket statement that he supports "something" just doesn't cut it.
"Try enforcing civil rights in 50 different republics, see where that will get you! "
We get fusion centers.
And anyway, if you've checked out prison populations, we haven't done too well in the CR department.
Figures, on the issues Ron Paul is completely correct about, the conservative nut wings are off the insanity scale of extremism.
Racism is a canard. You can toss the accusation into any debate, and people of a certain political persuasion will react like pavlovian dogs. Its an easy distraction from the high crimes of the Federal Reserve and their tax-profiteering Wall Street cohorts.
This will show all those wacky fringe-types who dislike war!
Me thinks Rep Paul and his libertarian ophthalmologist son Randi are riding a tiger.
When I was in high school, there were a couple of YAF idiots on campus (this was 1970). The were known as the Young Assholes for Fascism, as all they were interested in was painting themselves as patriots and everyone who disagreed with them as traitors, taking their mantra from Hermann Göring's jail cell statement at the Nürnberg trials. It seems that little has changed, and their adherence to Göring's words is as steadfast as ever.
I found that link interesting.
"God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children."
from small-pox blankets in the central plains, to marines in banana fields, to economic sanctions that only effect the poor and defenseless, to overthrowing freely elected governments, to napalm and agent orange, to du, more white phosphorus, and now the strength and bravery of our fine drone assassins at computer screens – we have the strength of heart and the divine right to spread the liberty to profit from the misery of all gawd's children …
What's with all the god-bs? Do these conservatives even know the secular nature of the United States government? By the level of enthusiasm for their fantasy theocracy, I'd say they've been hanging around their Saudi Arabians counterparts too much.
It's the Pro War movement that is on the fringe. (YAF) – Young Americans for Fascism. Fascism is Pro War. Being in the military is not Freedom. Fighting for international corporate interests is not american. Jordan Marks is the traitor. I bet he's not young either. Ignorant Freak.
"except we actually believe in people collaborating on (you call them 'socialist') things like Post Offices, highways, the Internet, reducing pollution, and universities."
I don't know where you got the idea that we don't, but that's precisely what RP believes in. Notice that 'federal government' was nowhere in your sentence.
India? That's a new one. Don't you mean
I'm not that crazy about it either but we'll get used to it.
And they all dressed like William Buckly.
Pro War is not delusional and disturbing ? Education is a bitch.
The "something" I was referring to is Ron Paul's (along with a group of other republicans) support of shutting down govt rather than raising the debt ceiling.
Republicans,teabaggers,Mr.Coulter,Mrs.Palin,Limpballs,Rummy,Rand Paul.If you've seen one you've seen them all.They are all so narrow minded,that if you were to extract their brains and place them on the edge of a razor blade they would think they are on a four lane highway.
Did they just wake up? For as long as I can remember Paul has advocated a non-interventionist policy. Free and fair trade, maintain a defense of America, but allow other countries to determine their course.
The YAF-ooz have the mindset of people who peak through their neighbors windows and then regulate what they do behind closed doors. I'd like to know how 53,000 troops based in Germany (with families) makes the US safer? My bet is they also rail against the UN but NATO is okay.
Love the response – "haven't done anything for years." So write this off as a publicity stunt.
Pick a tense — past or present — and stick with it.
How many of these warmongering YAF'ers are currently fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq? My guess would be 5% but that's probably on the high side.
The young republicans comments are comedy gold especially at the end of the article. These people are so out of touch and remember it is about 28% who are this wacked.
Ron Paul won't lose a minute of sleep over this.
At least I serve a useful purpose for the citizenry. CPAC doesn't..
They favor war? "Young Americans for freedom" is all about war? Not christians, obviously. Not much interested in freedom, since that involves debating positions. Where do they find people like this?
That's just like saying the Constitution doesn't apply anymore because it's antiquated. It applies now just like it applied then, some of us didn't get "duped". Some of us just changed our strategies and are now waking up the "sleeping" partiers. I don't go for all the idiocy going on in either party. That's why many people call themselves, "Independants".
The real bad thing is, your statement is correct. That is the only way any of these tools on Capitol Hill will hear anything. We need to change that and fast.
Let's get to the meat of this, The DEMS care too much. Let me ask you, Did YOU have any slaves? Did you kill any? Did you sell anyone into slavery? I'll bet it is no on all counts. Why then, do YOU and I have to fall into the same old trap of being called a racist? Is it because I'm white? Is it because you're white? I am not falling into the "Chronic Victim syndrom". I'm not playing into that one iota. My ancestors weren't here when that was going on. My ancestors came here right before WWI from East Germany. I have my own skeletons to deal with and they sure the hell don't include slavery. I'm not playing that game as my family wasn't here and I'm not taking ANY responsibility for that time/action of slavery. Not my problem, I have many of my own. I grew up dirt poor and made something of myself. I got an education and rose above the poverty. Anyone can these days, it has to come from within.
"Fringe?" More people believe that 911 was an inside job than there are people who are for the "wars"/occupations. At least 1/3 of the American public and growing believes it was an inside job. The more educated a person is the more likely a person is to believe that it was an inside job. Americans are overwhelmingly against both occupations and most Americans want a real investigation into the Bush Administration and 911.
Oh snap!!! Ron Paul smacked those hookers down =D
these yaf people need to sit down in an auditorium with ron paul and let him school them on foreign policy, the Constitution etc….perhaps they are not too far gone where they can see the error of their ways
I don't think they exist – I was suggesting a name for the Paul, Nader coalition.
The libertarian emphasis on personal property rights is over the top imo. I'm all for liberty but feel this is an i got mine, fu, attitude. Ron Paul just won the CPAC straw poll, again, and if his platform is End the Patriot Act, End the Wars, and End the FED, I will vote for him.
Ideas are not the private property of any group, and when that group gets co-opted, the ideas are still good. That's all I'm saying. Those good ideas are not much discussed on the left/right divide, or by the two sides of the War Party.
When liberals dismiss those ideas out of bias against the "Tea Party", they are shooting themselves in the feet. We don't have to join the Tea Party in order to value the good that first inspired them.
Libertarians are neo-confederates. Look it up.
Oh yeah, "not a lot to laugh about…" One should not "call out" or "decry" when the only reason they make a statement is to sully a persons name. It is wrong when a person cries "racism" where none exists. From what I have read over the years from both him and his son, there is nothing racist in any of "their" statements.
As for the papers published years ago, it seems to me that they were written by another person. I could see you getting your panties in bundle had he written them, but the fact remains he did not. But anything I say does not matter because you will refuse to look into all of this yourself and take other peoples word on the subject.
Besides this article seems to be about him getting kicked out of a group that supports continuous war. It seems to me the man shows courage for standing against the many in his party who support war.
You should have more to go on than just watching a few interviews on NPR and Maddow. Or hearing a few sounds bites or words from others about the man. I hear a lot about a lot of people and would never talk about them unless I knew where they truly stood.
I do agree white folk are welcomed to stand up for others peoples rights. But what you perceive may not be totally right. Perception is ones ability to see past themselves. If you cannot look at Paul without getting over yourself, then all you will see is racism.
He is not a racist, complete Huffington BS.
No, let's attack it because it makes the writer look as lf he didn't pass third-grade grammar and because the sentence doesn't make any sense. Like most Republicans and tea partiers.
Yeah, everyone who isn't rich is just lazy, so screw 'em. Why, everyone could be a millionaire, if they just worked at it (of course you'll have a hard time finding a caddy out on the golf course). Oh wait, the billionaires already took everything, and now they want the few crumbs that are left. Not much room left at the table for those that aren't already there.
By the way, it is obvious that you are a republican by your refusal to take responsibility for anything. I got mine, screw everyone else. You know, in the America I grew up in, we all worked together (both parties) to solve the countries problems, and move forward to a better future. Ever since Reagan, its all ME ME ME! Now, we've become a 3rd world banana republic thanks to attitudes like yours.
Your argument is just a hologram.
I can't see the republican party fracturing and splitting in two. I think that has as much as a chance as the progressive democrats fracturing from the now defunct but will come back in a reincarnated form, the DLC.
There were many people who were not racist before the Civil Rights Act, and there were many people who were. Those who were and committed crimes should have been prosecuted for their crimes, which were many. The federal government is charged with protecting and defending the rights of all its citizens against infringement by some. It did not do that. It fell down on the job.
Instead it legislated against racism, thereby perversely instigating reactionary racism and energizing and extending its miserable life.
When we can discuss the claimed purposes, the hidden purposes, the intended and unintended effects of any legislation against a moral offense, we might begin to understand the futility of decreeing top down what people are to think and feel, when simply prosecuting the crimes engendered by the moral offense would have dealt the moral offense itself critical blows.
As a person who has been on the receiving end of racism I admit when I first heard this critique of the Civil Rights Act I was taken aback. But I'm not so quick now to dismiss it – I think it would actually be a good place to begin a modern discussion about race in America.
I am always reminded of Lincoln's perception and notice sadly how accurately it foretold our current situation.
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country…corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and
the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
Abraham Lincoln, November 21, 1864
Where did the donald place in the straw poll? The whole CPAC event was marked with outbursts, and boo's for the various douches.
Well said Jaime and I'll have to agree whole-heartedly. And a Happy Valentines day to one and all here. If you have love in your lives, may your lines of communication be open and fruitful today, if you don't have love in your life, may you find love and may it be long and happy.
The one thing I like about the Pauls is that they would certainly shake up the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Prison-Lobbyist Complex in Washington. I don't think they would get anything done in Washington, but it would be a lovely thing to watch.
Your argument is weak. I'm not taking responsibility for something my family wasn't here for. It's just like me telling you that you must take the blame for Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It doesn't fly. I worked hard and went to school to better my own situation. Nobody is going to take care of my family but me. You're not going to pay my power bill when it's too high are you? Same instance. Your logic has failed miserably. Think about what I wrote and then think about what you wrote, it has no bearing or substance. I'm not a republican in any sorts. I'm independant all the way. Practice what you preach, if you want ME to take responsibility for something that neither I nor my ancestors never did then YOU need to take the lead.
The greedy corporate imperialist is not certain to be a R. S/he is just as likely to be a D
i wonder how many of the YAF chickenhawks have or will serve in the military… my guess is they'll follow the lead of their elders – cheney et al and send others to kill and die while they talk a good game about military 'strength'…
Afghanistan has lithium, vital to batteries, just another peak mineral.
I think those positions are the ideas of a few idiots, not the ideas of the original Tea Party which was comprised of angry Republicans, Democrats, Independents, and Libertarians who are sick of corruption and endless war. As soon as Palin was sent in to "head" the Tea Party, the intelligent responsible people ran in all directions, leaving only a small group of right wing loyalists.
The original ideas opposing corruption, endless war, and the criminal money system still stand independently of the Tea Party. And that is what I am talking about, as was Naomi Wolf. Those ideas are important and the two major parties fear them.
You would be wise to take care to distinguish between the real ideas and the circus parade of fools that subverted them. I do not like the current Tea Party as you suggest. But I love the original ideas.
A young conservative. Now there's a contradiction in terms.
My point is that banning usually breathes new life into the thing you would prefer take its last breath. Let 'em die a natural death, banning them is a waste of energy.
Glad you like it. The original ideas are good – but the current Tea Party has selectively abandoned the spirit of them. Yet, Ron Paul embodies some of those ideas still, spirit and all.
Don't ask don't tell.
Thanks Hologram. Same to you.
The best answer to you is "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." I don't think you were brought up in a neighborhood that had so few examples of success stories and people you could look up to in comparison to many blacks living in black neighborhoods. In many neighborhoods the biggest success stories are dope dealers. I was brought up in a working class neighborhood that had few professionals to use as examples, although there were some small businesses owners living there, one attorney, one known Jew, and one osteopath who had an office on a main street. There were many occupations that I never considered doing because I never knew anyone who did it. I am not saying that some will not overcome all obstacles in the worst neighborhoods, but very few will.
You appear to buy into the pull yourself up by your own bootstraps model of success. I have met a number of Russians, Russian Jews, Poles, and others from Eastern Europe and I have found them to be very racist and right wing. One Russian even sent his son to school in Arizona because it was all white. For another comment I looked into the disparity in the educational money available to differing neighborhoods in Los Angeles. I don't want to do it again, but wealthy areas had about 10 times more money available per pupil than some others.
I heard Tim Wise speak once and he said if there were advantages to being black many whites would do it and follow the example of the guy that wrote "Black Like Me". Today there are medicines that will change the color of one's skin, but so far only one known person has tried it.
Jonathon Kozol has said the school system and neighborhoods today are more segregated than ever before.
Oxymorons!. A group of mostly chickenhawks who followed a plan prepared by chickenhawks at the request of Israel's Bibi Nethanyahu and which has cost over $4 TRILLION DOLLARS cloes to 40,000 American soldiers crippled; millions of dead Iraqis and demands by the like of Bolton, Gingrich and the much travelled to Israel Mike Huckabee (18 trips so far) and the outbursts of Ms. Palin, Bachmann, Cantor THROW OUT A TRULY CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN.
Guess the definition of a conservative NOW is best represented by the likes of Michele Bachmann
The neo-con, big government, big wars gang that took over the Republican party is trying in a desperate, coordinated fashion to create a rift that will deep six traditional American ideals of liberty. They do this on behalf of their masters, the globalist bankster families and their minions. If this years' CPAC event showed them anything, it was that they need to start calling their friends in the Democrat party soon and reserve a space with their fellow con artists there and accept subservience of their brand of fake, neo-con collectivism, which has failed in the American public's mind, to the fake neo-liberal collectivism that is still alive and well.
re:"God has blessed the United States[...]. Rep. Paul has [...] abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural rights."
Don't you just love the bald-faced hypocrisy these war-mongers have, invoking "God" in the same breath as defending war and admonishing those who stand for peace…..because you know, Republican Jesus carries an AK-47. No wonder muslims think christians are on another crusade. Stupid ass religion strikes again.
I got a idea.
All the information and points of view that you all are stating.
Is a waste of ethernet pipeline.
YOU want to make a Difference Get Out There and Beat The Streets.
Because as far as i can see you just as bad as the people behind the curtain.
Discussing things in a relatively secret enviorment.
Who are they? After the comments they have made, I can easily envision this YAF (Young Adolph's Forever???) group with knee-high black leather boots and little black mustaches.
"I hadn't heard of YAF doing anything in years, I thought they were defunct," Ron Paul's political director Jesse Benton told Politco. "Young Americans for Liberty is the group of the future."
Fringe Anti-war? :))
You are kidding right?
Yeah, I agree. He showed tremendous fucking courage. A couple days late, and a few dollars short, but still it's appreciated. Anything that shakes up the complete sham that is governance these days is appreciated.
However, a man who lets others publish screeds of a racially prejudicial nature under his name is no moral titan. And Rand is just fucking creepy. All his excuses notwithstanding, I don't trust the guy. How many interviews do I need to hear to make up my mind? Was Paladino just misunderstood, too? Haley Barbour? Mitch McConnell? They all play for the same team.
Not "getting my panties in a bundle", or calling names, or calling anyone whitey. Just trying to converse, stating what I perceive.
Was that spoken like a true white man?
I've started a chapter of the ACLU. I've worked for equality all my life. What's wrong with you, my brother? Can't see past the color of MY skin?
And yo….I'm not standing up for "other people's rights", I'm standing up for the rights of people. What is this "other" of which you speak?
Talk Talk talk .
This is the extent of the content on this discussion board.
You all are just ranting fine.
The only way to make a difference is to actually do less talk more walk.
I can understand you feel safe under false usernames relative safety of your home or work.
But in the end you are hollow names with false faces, how is that going to make a difference ?
The impact zero to minimal The result zero to minimal. You wasted time and energy talking, arguing, and that it is not really making one iota of difference is it.
With regards:
The Community.
New businesses have to have handicap shitters. (I know, as I've started several over the last couple decades.)
And…..uh…..why would it be such a great thing for me to be able to deny service to anyone based on their religion, or lack thereof?
Rather than convince me, you're scaring me. I do not agree with you. If a person wants to operate a public business, they ought serve everyone who can and will conduct themselves civilly.
Are YOU crazy? That wouldn´t be a good idea, even though she "looks" do-able (ULK). You would find out that her type of person isn´t about just an attraction. She MUST gain something out of it. Imagine, instead of having a possible good time, she would be constantly stalling you, asking you to first agree on becoming a Tee-Bagger and to come on Faux Noise for an interview from a neocon prespective, knowing that you would rather die than agree to that. Now, if you could agree to that, then you must really want to know her better "south of the border".Ha.
"if you own a small restaurant, … do not take any government assistance, "
Here is the stupid lossage: people like you ignore the fact that EVERYONE "takes government assistance"
The small restaurant owner takes government assistance from the police department which makes sure that it is not robbed in the night. They take govenment assistance from the town that plows the roads so that people can get to the restaurant.
Wake up and smell the civilization.
He wins the straw poll to be the next nominee, then gets booted…because he's not conservative enough? And these are the people we want running the country?
So let me get this straight. Ron Paul is AGAINST the illegal wars overseas (still didn't find any WMD's) and have been meddling in the affairs of other countries for so long that the whole world is either laughing at us or hates us.
So this dude from YAF says he is nearly a traitor for not supporting an illegal war. I don't get it, really, help me out here. Here is a politician that wants to end the "endless state of war" the globalists have us in and he is bashed for it, whats wrong with that picture?
Here is an example of stupid "libertarian" thinking (quoted from below):
To give an example, if you own a small restaurant, do not employ anyone outside your family, do not take any government assistance, then you should have the right to serve whomever you want because it is your property
See what a foolish thing this is? EVERYONE takes government assistance. The "independent" small restaurant owner is not independent at all. They DEPEND on the police to prevent their property from being stolen in the evening. They DEPEND on the town to plow the roads and fill the potholes so that people can drive to their restaurant. They DEPEND on the federal government to make sure that their suppliers only supply them with wholesome food.
"Libertarian" means "I am free to ignore whatever I want to so I can make stupid arguments that make no sense".
So your third-grade hazing is good when you have nothing else to say. Should rename yourself JustADumbGrammerPoliceman.
"I thought they were defunct." Hysterical.
I haven't seen any money yet. They should owe me a bazillion dollars by now.
Nope. Never had a slave.
Great story, and congratulations on your single-handed success.
Newsflash: prejudice still exists. Institutionalized racism exists. Red-lining still happens.
I'm not overjoyed by it.
We all have a responsibility to fix the broken shit in our societies, irrespective of where we (or our ancestors) were when shit got broken.
If you are anti-war then you ARE aligned with the left. Is that so hard for you?
You're right; we needn't take the blame for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
But we must bear the responsibility. It is our country. We are currently making–at the behest of Rummy and Cheney, and the MIC–a new generation of tactical nukes. I don't think it a great idea. And if they are used….well…..who should we blame?
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis payed for Saddam's wickedness. And he would still be our big buddy had he not crossed us. After Halabja, Rummy went and made nice with him again.
How are we NOT to blame for the evils we countenance?
Are you talking about Rand Paul? Even so, Maddow and NPR are both dedicated to maintaining the status quo that prohibits any discussion other than the one that constantly rehashes the same old opposition of the polarizing racism/anti-racism debate.
There are other positions that can overcome the polarity in favor of greater understanding, but keeping us all divided is utilitarian to the War Party. It keeps them in office.
So what, just about every country has lithium reserves. Afghanistan has less than 1% of the world supply.
Why don't we just fill all the discussion boards with trash like this?
I do agree that prejudice still exists but it goes along the same line of reasoning as addiction. Take Lindsey Lohan for example, how may times has she been in Rehab? Just because she goes to rehab that doesn't mean she'll stay clean and sober. You can tell a racist that what they do is wrong but just because you tell them it doesn't mean they'll change. I can't change the way these morons think. I can tell them right from wrong but I can't make them think and do what's right. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. These people won't change because we tell them to, they have to change because they want to and if they don't want to, there isn't much we can do about it. Same goes for people that don't want to work, all they want to do is collect free money. We can only cap their time limit on drawing the benefits. Once the cap is hit, they either get a job or starve. You can't change people, they have to want to change. I wanted to change my circumstances and so I did. They have to want to break the cycle of prejudice, we can't make them. This is why I stated what I did, I don't use racist language, some of my best friends are of color. My neighbor is black, we are very close friends and he agrees with me 100% about he chronic victim syndrom, he condemns Al Sharpton, condemns all racism, doesn't matter what color they are. He is wise beyond his years and sees things clearly for what they are.
He said it best in this recent interview.
I didn't realize that was their mission. And I'm not convinced you're correct in your surmise.
It is a wonderful day indeed when the leaders of Republican groups toss out the leading candidate in their polls.
Yes indeed Republicans, you are doing a great job of showing us why we should not vote for you: you have no clue.
Please continue to push all of these mediocre, fatally flawed candidates. Don't narrow down the choices. Keep them all in the ring as long as possible. Keep it going all the way to your convention.
In the end you will dig Richard Nixon out of his grave and push him as the candidate, just as you always do. You HAVE to do this because none of your living breathing candidates have a chance.
I see no good inspiring the teabaggers. The are a bunch of windbags in love with the sound of their own voices. That is the entire philosophical underpinning of the teabag movement. A bunch of selfcentered blowhards demanding attention, nothing more.
Are you afraid of ideas? I'm sorry you have closed your mind.
By the way, I am not part of or a supporter of the Tea Party. But the ideas that catalyzed its beginnings are important and potent. That the Tea Party abandoned them is good reason to abandon the Tea Party. They are being absorbed by the GOP and probably quite happily will go with little resistance.
So we should've not had a Civil Rights Act??
I couldn't disagree more.
Who cares about CPAC except grumpy, bigoted white folk!
Well, we'll see. The trick will be to sort it out for ourselves because the MSM is certainly going to distort any genuine conversation to reflect its own role as a prop for the War Party.
I never said that. If you get past that for a moment, you'll see that I only stated a psychological fact that you cannot change people just by talking to them. I thought the point was plain.
Hey YAF members! If you love the wars so much, I know several recruiters who will give you a one-year, all-expenses-paid vacation to Afghanistan where you can demonstrate your commitment to defending our country against foreign enemies!
Bunch of chickenhawks!
Some will, certainly. It is incumbent on us to be ever vigilant against such actions.
No longer are we limited to three channels of pablum generated by the 'powers that be'.
I have read all your posts and they have nothing intelligent in them fuck off troll.
I agree completely. It is not time that determines what is right but it is time that brings facts into focus.
Although 150 years ago, this article shows that the Constitution has been ignored by our leaders when it went against their desired outcome. http://americancivilwar.com/authors/Joseph_Ryan/150-Year-Anniversary/April-1861/What-Happened-in-April-1861.html#writ
cough! cough! Obama?
Understood. My point is that precisely BECAUSE some people cannot through logic, or appeal to humanity, or biological fact, be convinced that prejudice is wrong, legislation has been the most effective remedy.
Sociopaths don't necessarily understand that murder is wrong. Just because you cannot convince them of this does not argue against making it illegal.
But….if their actions, so abhorrent, weren't illegal…for what crimes would they answer?
From nyt article of June 2010 "Afghanistan could be the Saudi Arabia of Lithium"
I hear you brother, we are on the same page. I never said that the legislation is bad or good. Some people can't be changed though, even with the most stringent legislation. I can't wait for the day when we don't have to worry about this, or make legislation that affects everyone just because a few are being ignorant fools. Have a great day.
you're doing exactly what you're accusing people here doing…and you created a twitter account just to post this drivel?…good luck with your "crusade" and your "community:…
Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side…
My God! This is the most disgusting thing that I've ever read in my life! The people at YAF are nothing more than pieces of horse shit. Screw all of them!
Dr. Paul has dedicated his life to exposing these wars for what they are, and they have the nerve to kick him out. INSANITY!!!!!
If the founders were alive today, they would be behind Dr. Paul 100%. All of them were against foreign entanglements, and they would look at these fools with utter disgust.
Anyone else experiencing ads bleeding through the comments?
They are working on it…seems to only be happening in Chrome…
All the right people that love the interpretations of this age and demand others worship them have overlooked the SMALLEST OF POINTS (Spirit) that will soon alter everything and leave those that band together using interpretations humiliated. Get ready for the Wild Ride!
Well, murder, rape, false witness, burning houses, burning crosses on others' private property, raiding middle class black communities and destroying them, placing impediments to the success of black businessmen and farmers by every level of government, etc., etc..
These were already crimes – not made so by the Civil Rights Act. And the institutional racism against black and native peoples is still in effect today. The government that has made racism a thought crime, practices racist policies itself.
I am not saying I support repealing the Civil Rights Act, but I do support open and honest discussion about all the issues that are being used to divide us into easily manipulated opposing groups.
well somebody has to stay back here and make the money, you know those checks won't cash themselves
YAF are a bunch of fascist youth which I've witnessed first hand. Scary bunch, and they're pissed Ron won CPAC again this year. Only good for Ron Paul they "booted" him. Good for RP.
As Jesse Ventura would tell them. "If you're too chicken to put on the uniform and go fight a war that you say is right then rename your org to " Young Chickenhawks for Freedom". I guess these buffoons did not already know that Ron Paul as been against these wars in the middle east since they started because they did not follow the US Constutitional process of filing a "Declaration of War" That is the Constitutional process thats SUPPOSED to be followed. Then again the congressmen/women would have to debate and put their reasons for war on the record in open congressional debates before the public. Something congressmen/women these days don't like to do for such a important issue.
Ron and Rand Paul can't run a whole movement. So to say they "let it happen" is intellectually dishonest. No more than the Democractic party can control the extreme leftists that might come in to their party.
This is old strategy,they're sacrificing those that follow Paul thinking they'll drag the libs away from Obama and set up a GOP win. If Paul runs as Ind. he'll hopefully garner enough of those who think Obama is continuing the wars of W . So you'll see more and more rhetoric that Obama has deserted the left.
Sounds more like Hitler Youth for America.
My, my. Inflammatory words, to be sure. Let's see who really has the power now, and who calls the shot. Methinks this month is proving very educational for the Republican Party.
Where are the moderates in the Republican party? Most of them fled sometime between 2000 and 2010, it would seem. The rallying cry of the teabaggers has been "Kick out the RINOs!" for at least three years now.
So outdated as to be irrelavant. The story does not mention the obvious overtaking by The Koch Bros and Industries, who have commandeered the whole "movement" for their anti regulation, pro-uncontrolled business platform. It is that VERY stance that led to America's demise, its origins in REAGAN'S " trickle down "Voodoo economics." The demographic is still seen as ostly molder, economically well advantaged folks. The "Tea party Express" is an even more extremist enclave of the self centered with even more extremist backlash against anyone who they deem "hostile" to their cause. Racism is still a significant aspect of this group. I still regard them as "TEAdiots. For open minds, "Progressive Dems are the only hope, not Blue dog, not "Moderate" but Progressive. We need to radically overhaul the Democratic party. A tall order, but with TEA Party, I hold no confidence. They're sucking up to lobbyists and the status quo as we speak.
You're sadly mistaken when you say Soros has "co-opted the Leftists and Progressives." Judging from the lack of clear direction, the Leftists and Progressives (all three of them) are too busy debating the finer points of doctrine to respond to your charges, leaving me to do the task for them. As a matter of fact, George Soros has never taken a public position on Progressive/Left issues, and until the right made a huge hoo-ha about him, most of us had never heard of the man. Whereas it's clear that the Koch brothers are using their enormous fortune to create an army of drones that march in lockstep and repeat the exact same talking points. However, those of a politically conservative bent who do not believe billionaires have the right to buy elections are understandably opposed to the Koch talking points, which is why we continue to see dissension among the ranks. I personally support Ron Paul's antiwar stance and find it very enlightening that so many conservatives/Republicans/teabaggers are so threatened by it. "Treason?" That's going a little too far.
Funny because much of what the TEA P espouses was advocated in the anti war 60′s, after all it was "don't trust the Establishment" that prevailed and anti war, anti military.
Where were TEA-ers all during the Bush years? There was no protest even when the administration hocked America to the tune of 700 billion dollars to China to fund the two illegal wars, or when it ramped up the deficit, giving that huge tax break to the rich and still pushed to do so with the GOP push in 2009 to extend the rich tax break. And it was the GOP who gave TARP and the GM bailouts. Obama INHERITED those little gambits from Bush, along with those two nasty wars. and need we mention REAGAN instigated the largest governmental growth, and tax increases in American history, next to Bush's additional largest governmental growth when the Dept of the Fatherland was created. Where were the TEA types then???
Funny because much of what the TEA P espouses was advocated in the anti war 60′s, after all it was "don't trust the Establishment" that prevailed and anti war, anti military. They're recycling ideals promoted 40 years earlier. and, all during the Bush years, there was no protest even when the administration hocked America to the tune of 700 billion dollars to China to fund the two illegal wars, or when it ramped up the deficit, giving that huge tax break to the rich and still pushed to do so with the GOP push in 2009 to extend the rich break. And it was the GOP who gave TARP and the GM bailouts. Obama INHERITED
I'm sorry, but you're confusing law with social policy. While it might be arguable in law that a person's right to enjoyment of their property is as important as a person's right to be free of the invidious results of discrimination, public policy holds that society has an interest in ensuring that all its citizens have at least a semblance of equal rights sufficient to keep them from threatening the cohesiveness of said society. Civil rights are an important aspect of leveling the playing field through use of public policy directives that dictate legal sanctions for behaviours judged to harm such cohesiveness. I would like to hear you explain how a person's right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," considered the most basic of human rights in the constitution, is compatible with the right of an individual to refuse service to another human being who might need it.
I like this: "The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed…" Well, if you ask most of the world, you would find many who would consider these Americans delusional for such a belief. And, are we sure that dropping bombs on people is really the best way to shine that light? Which choices are we giving the world: Death or Democracy? And, just when was the last time that we established a Western-style democracy anywhere in the world? Or, was America too busy propping up dictators for the last few decades that the 'beacon' thing is nothing more than a joke?
You're right. An honest, open discussion is badly needed. We have indeed been sundered by those interests who seek only to perpetuate division.
I hope we're embarking on that endeavor even now–you and I–and will be joined by others of integrity and humane purpose.
Exactly, and as I was part of that back then I was very attracted to the initial stirrings of the Tea Party. But as soon as Cheney found a use for Palin to head the new group, people like me left in droves.
Now, the ideas are still important, and there is new generation coming up who are interested in them. They are not generally in the Tea Party's extremist element, in fact I don't think they are in the Tea Party at all now that is has been destroyed. But let's support these young people, the generation that preceded them is politically comatose in the main. They've had it too good.
Whatever Obama inherited he is more than pleased to continue and extend. Don't let him off the hook so easily. They all work for the War Party, Repubs and Dems – they only tell their voting constituencies different stories to get re-elected, but they all work for the same objectives ultimately.
I, too, agree without reservation. Open-mindedness is crucial for meaningful change to have any chance.
It's good talking with you peeps. In disagreement, I have found your good arguments worthy of serious consideration. (Jaime as well, although I can't find a 'reply' option to express my thanks directly to his latest post.)
Thanks, and happy St. V Day.
Work harder, it's happening in firefox too.
I too come here for that reason. We all have valid concerns and when we dig deep, they are pretty much the same. Hope your day goes well, Peace…
Yes master…
Of course I know the Tea Party has become what you say. Not because it has kept to its ideals, but because it has been distracted from and abandoned them. I am not suggesting anyone support the Tea Party, but to familiarize him or herself with the ideas that propelled it into being in the first place, as Naomi Wolf recommends.
Even those "old" ideas of the 60s revolution have new life despite our having failed back then. Now we know far more about what underlies the economic supports of the MIC and all it has become, we know that the money and banking system is corrupt and is at the root of almost all of the world's political problems. That new context alone gives new life to those old ideas.
Ron Paul is one of the few in government who understand this. When he is able to crack open the secrets of the federal reserve exposing them to the global general public, opportunities will arise to establish a legal and ethical banking system or systems. I don't want to miss out on that.
Well if the Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) feel so strongly about the Iraqi and Afgan Wars they should all go and enlist in the Army or Marines to fulfill their personal position in fighting these wars.
Hey Young Americans for Freedom (YAF) put your lives where your mouths are!
At last control is MINE!
What do you mean? Burning babies generates a lot of light. Think of all that baby fat. ;-)
What was that name again? Young Assholes for Fascism?
I kept trying to remember that name. Hitler Youth indeed. Thanks.
Unfortunately, he HAS deserted the Left. Not that Paul Ron Wilbur or whatever his idiot name is would make a decent replacement.
What do you have against Che Guevara, Adolf?
What, are you one of those idiot Rapturists? Still think the world is flat?
Not in MY Firefox.
They are defunct. But the zombies haven't figured it out yet.
Why are you trying to talk sense into a bunch of maroons?
Nothing actually. It was just painted by Van Gogh standing on a porcupine.
Obama's a Republican. He just ran as a Democrat. Like Bloomberg ran as a Republican despite being a Democrat. It makes perfect sense in 1984 in Bizarro World.
Thats because you're special…
"Talk Talk Talk." That's why it's called a discussion board. As for its usefulness, let me remind you that the pen is mightier than the sword. Take Egypt for example.
It's a term used to demean. Like conspiracy nut. It says nothing about the merits of the evidence or the position. They used to call us commie pinkos. Now we're the fringe. It's what you do when you have no valid argument.
If there really was a god, these young anuses for fascism would be toast.
You left out the Jews, the Illuminati, and the extraterrestrials. Especially the extraterrestrials.
The last true conservative died at Ford's Theater.
Racist? Ok Ben Stein
I would tell you to go fuck yourself, but your head's in the way.
Barack Hussein was a product of what you call beating the streets, and you can see what good that did us. But you're not really serious. This is just some new meme generated by our triliteral. Sorry Bunky, but votin' ain't gonna do it.
Let me guess. Somewhere between zero and one percent?
Look it up where?
They are too far gone. Take my word for it.
Look under any good sized rock.
The fact that Ron Paul and his son have both publicly expressed opposition to the Civil Rights Act speaks volumes to me. And in those numerous newsletters throughout the years (Paul first started his newsletters in 1978), most of the articles were written in the first person–as though Ron Paul had written them himself. And when called on it a few years later, at first Paul claimed the statements made in them were taken out of context; and then later, he claimed not to have written them and was unaware of their content.
"From the June 1992 issue of Ron Paul Political Report, which appeared after the Los Angeles riots: "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began." A newsletter from the previous year offered this headline for a report on racial disturbances in a Washington, D.C., neighborhood: "Animals Take Over the D.C. Zoo." The newsletters also belittled Martin Luther King Jr. — "We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day" — and praised David Duke."
"Paul, through his presidential campaign manager, claimed he didn't write the newsletters and shouldn't be held accountable for what's in them — though many issues bare his signature. "A lot of [the newsletters] he did not see. Most of the incendiary stuff, no," the spokesman said."
"This portrayal might be more believable if extremist views had cropped up in the newsletters only sporadically — or if the newsletters had just been published for a short time…But it is difficult to imagine how Paul could allow material consistently saturated in racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism and conspiracy-mongering to be printed under his name for so long if he did not share these views."
It is interesting to note that David Duke (a prior grand something or other of the KKK) and his followers are big time fans of both Ron Paul and his son, Rand. So I wonder how many Ron Paul supporters that have been literally swarming this site in the last week or two are also David Duke fans?
The issue there correlates back to the fact that the TEA Party was taken over by neocons. Bush is the godfather of the neocon creed, and there's no way that they would ever question one of their most beloved faithful.
Again, the issue here is that you're focusing your attention to the neocon version of the TEA Party. Their overthrow of the movement caused all media attention–left and right–to revolve around them, and not the version that Dr. Paul had created with good and just causes in mind. I'm referring to ideas such as ending the Federal Reserve, ending the wars, returning to sound money, ending American imperialism, etc.
The fact is, Jaimie, is that we already know what they're doing with the money. There are rules in the Reserve's playbook that allow it to send money over seas without having to notify the general public. We know that money is being sent to off-shore corporations. The only thing we have to do now is get that information to the general (but widely ignorant) public.
Well, he has stated he is for all those things. He was one of only a few who voted against the Patriot Act. He has a 30 year history of advocating a humble foreign policy and ending the Fed.
Gotta remember, TEA Party Express =/= Tea Party
The original Tea Party factions that started as 9/11 truth and anti-fed/Military Industrial Complex/Pharmaceutical Industrial Complex/corporatism/et cetra still exist and are still the majority in the movement. Just because a Gaggle of Neocon toadies have stolen the limelight bolstered by the pathetic mouthpiece of the media and then perpetuated by useful idiots on the left in an attempt to undermine credibility and destroy the movement, doesn't mean they've truly been effective.
The racism argument is so baseless that it could induce nausea in someone. What's racist about them? Oh, God forbid that they support states' rights and the 10th amendment. I guess that settles it then: they're bad people. I support the 10th and states' rights, and I would be the last person that you'd ever consider to be racist.
Also, your point about getting rid of safety nets shows just how easily the Welfare State has taken hold of the American psyche. People have been led to believe for so long that the government needs to provide everything for you, that they can't imagine a world where people aren't asking the State for more. Which is sad, especially when you consider the fact that this country has not only gotten along fine without government welfare, it's actually done better.
Take poverty, for example. If you go around and ask people what would happen if the government stopped helping the poor, they would probably tell that there would be an epidemic of homeless people running around. History and moral philosophy has shown us that this is not the case. For example, in his famous work, 'For a New Liberty", Murray Rothbard outlines that the major problem with the Welfare State isn't that is teaches people how to get on it; it's that it teaches people that they need to stay on. People who get on welfare aren't taught to be self-sufficient. They're told that the government will provide everything, and that all they have to do is sit around and accept their welfare check. And, no, this isn't the philosophy of libertarians. I know people on the left who feel the same way as well.
Interestingly enough, private charity has always run circles around the government in getting people of their way and becoming contributing members to society. The Mormons, for example, have an astounding track record of helping people learn the importance of becoming individuals again and providing for themselves. Again, Rothbard outlines this in his master work. I suggest you read it.
Hell, even a free-market health care system would do better than what we have and what the government wants to give us. I hear people constantly say that without medicaid (the system that treats the poor), the poor couldn't get basic health services. Yet, when the system was under the free-market, a poor or homeless individual could walk right into a doctor or hospital office and get treated free of charge. They didn't have to live under the immoral system that we have now, where the government treats them by forcefully taking from others under the theft known as taxation. Hell, Dr. Paul has stated many times in his videos that he once volunteered (or worked) as a church doctor where poor or homeless individuals who had minor issues–hunger, dehydration, etc.–could walk into a community church and get food, water, and a nice, warm bed from the staff for–get ready for it–nothing.
People need to break out of the subjective perception that the government is always going to take care of them. Tom Woods has already outlined in his new book, "Rollback", that by 2030 to 2040, the amount of elderly in this country is going to outnumber the amount of young people in this country. That is an event that has never happened in the history of this nation. Ever. With that in mind, many economists fear that as time moves on, the federal budget will be dominated by nothing but costs for medicare, medicaid, and social security. There will be no money for anything else. No education, no military, no nothing. I would like to know what the left has to say about that.
I don't disagree that it is in a business' best interest to do business with everyone. And that is the point. Let economics and good business practice drive the incentive to do what's in a business' best interest, not government policy. And there is a difference between a private business and a public business. I am talking private business. Public business are regulated completely differently; if they are publicly traded then they have to abide by SEC regulations and therefore private property rights do not come into play. So your IBMs, Microsofts, Walmarts, etc. would be the subject of most of the CRA when it comes to discremination.
Well I was talking in the context of the CRA, which is at the Federal level. So I'm talking Federal government assistance, such as what a big agra farm or an auto manufacturer would take. You are talking about local government assistance, such as police and fire departments — and agreed businesses do take assistance for that, however that's why they pay taxes. It's not as though that assistance comes free.
You are the one who is ignorant to the fact that the government doesn't provide assistance for free. We pay taxes for that. I think you understand that the assistance I'm talking about would be in the form of small business loans, etc.; and there is a price for that — following their rules. But if a private business is not taking assistance and is paying its taxes why do you feel that they don't have a say in who they do business with? I don't think it's in their best interest not to do business with everyone (based on race, religion, handicap, etc), but who am I to tell them that. See my post above regarding economic and best business practice. If you don't business smartly, you wont be in business long.
I know Adam, but how many even access real news and when they do it's too complex – the American public needs it spelled out in simple terms so that we can boot the banksters out. We are not yet a large enough group to get enough of the house and senate on board to take back the fed. We need a much better informed electorate.
The last round of debt instruments sold to the general public, to the institutional bond holders, and to China are 30 year term variable rate, so from here on out we will have tax increases combined with decreases in people services merely to service the exponentially growing debt and its rising interest rates. We're being bankrupted, and concurrently subjected to more and more controls over our behavior. People who have gotten beyond the two party system are suspect, as are those who question 9/11, who are anti-war, who resist the onslaught, investigative journalists who actually investigate, small businesses that oppose the preferential treatment of oligarch owned big corporations. And all this is going on while we argue about racism and welfare, about what the rich owe us, about what responsibility the poor should take for own condition. And all of this is moot compared to the criminal powers of the federal reserve.
How to wake up more people? The young are more open minded, not set in their ways. Any ideas, Adam,
you care to share?
^Paul was not saying that he supports a repeal of the Civil Rights act. What he was saying, my friend, is that he simply doesn't believe that the government has any business telling a business what to do. And, by the laws of property property and the constitutional limitations, he's right. What you do with your private property is your choice. No external force–religion, church, etc.–can tell you otherwise. Thus, if someone who owns property A, for example, says that he doesn't want to serve people of a certain ethnicity–aka, Latino–then he has the right to do that with his property. The thing, however, is that by making such a stupid mistake, he is taking risk of going against the consumer, the most powerful force on the free-market, and putting his business in the lines of being shutdown.
Think about it: do we think in this day and age, in most advanced and major cities where people have IQs above 60, that a business stupid enough to put a sign outside their door that says I don't serve people because of the color of their skin would actually survive a day? I wouldn't eat in a place like that, and neither would you. Hell, I don't anyone here would. It's stupid, it's wrong, and it's morally bankrupt.
What Rand was saying with that comment wasn't that he supports racism, what he was trying to showcase is the power that we as consumers and morally, virituous people have in getting rid of such things.
That, my friend, is part of the libertarian creed. You should try learning about it.
Fully aware of the dirty opps our government plays around with and with what they have been willing to do a la Patriot Act, phone tapping, torture, etc. etc. etc. We saw what they did to folks back in the 60′s too.
My point is: Lay off the conspiracy stuff and focus on the Dr.'s message and you will get a bigger following. The public is generally wary of conspiracy type stuff and focus on actual problems that need to be solved. Claiming every little message board post that is anti-Paul is some paid covert opp. is baseless. Has he been smeared in past campaigns? Sure…just as it does to every other politico running for office.
"…and abandoned the citizens of the world…" (The citizens of the world? As in, like, the NWO maybe? Last time I checked there was no nation called "the word", thus I ask again, so who are these "citizens of the world"? I have to agree with Ron Paul, on this one, it's not up to the USA to be policeman for the world! We need to do a better job of defending our own borders, and keep terrorists and gangs from creeping in and violating our laws, and less time trying to be the worlds watchdog! Ron Paul gets that; and, that why he will probably never be elected as the president of the USA.
Maybe you grew up in Alabama, or Mississippi, where they teach that the Civil War (what southerners of a certain persuasion and age call to this day 'The War Between The States') wasn't about slavery at all, but rather was fought over "states rights".
What they don't like to discuss is the state's right they were primarily concerned with was the right to own people, and treat those people however they wished. You can fool yourself all you want, but revisionism of an ugly history does not change the facts.
(Me: Honors History major, in part)
And you think it'd be better to deregulate, so that fraudulent investment bankers can do whatever they want; wipe out Grandma's savings, and the equity she built over a lifetime in her single biggest investment–her home, and forget about social safety nets like Social Security? Never mind that people have paid into the fund for their whole lives.
Adam, you've been duped; played for a complete fool by the wealthy, who have taken every advantage and handout. Yet you'd deny the same bennies to those not so fortunate.
What else is government for, if not the betterment of all?
Are you rich, or simply self-loathing? Would you like to return to the days when old people without means were left to starve and die in the gutter? When states were free to discriminate if the wealthy, controlling masters of that state so deemed it desirable for their own ends? Because that's our past; our history. You seem to pine mightily for it, and that bespeaks a pitiful, mean-spirited sort of person.
What do you suppose happens to unemployment-check money? It doesn't get put into savings accounts. It buys food. It pays for rent. It buys medicine. It goes right back into the economy, acting as a stimulus. The true waste of resource is the vast profits made off the backs of the working class that gets hoarded by the wealthy, who need not expend every last penny they have simply to survive.
It wasn't poor people that ruined our economy and got bailed out time after time after time.
Give a thought to your fellow man. Or is that not a sound capitalist ideal?
I think it's hilarious that the morons that are part of the YAF see America as a beacon of hope and freedom for other nations. Apparently, these geniuses are completely clueless about Operation Ajax, the creation and funding of the Taliban and other Middle-Eastern terrorist groups during the Soviet-Afghan war, and Operation Gladios. No, none of those things matter, because no of those things fit in with their subjective views. If the truth behind those operations ever became mainstream, neocons like Cheney and Rumsfield would have no credibility left.
The marketplace, as we have seen, is not infallible. It requires regulation to function properly. But what you've overlooked is the assumption that a "marketplace" has equitable rules. That means everyone has the same right to play.
I find it staggeringly appalling that in the year 2011, you're arguing for the right to discriminate based on intrinsic characteristics. Dood–not cool at all. Seriously, listen to yourself.
And…..see frantaylor's comment, below.
Are you still talking? Christ. Can't you be stupid somewhere else?
So, owning property, I should be able to dump as much toxic sludge as I wish, irrespective of who is downstream?
I should be able to shoot my rifle whenever I want? And play my music as loud and as long as I wish? I can sell whatever defective, dangerous product I choose to, let the buyer beware?
What about if I run a day-care center? Can I diddle with the kiddies because it's MY business? Can I feed them lead-laced milk products? Can I teach them that killing people they don't like is fine n' dandy? Can I enlist them in the violent overthrow of the government? Can I tie them up if they annoy me?
In our past, people of a like mind lived in the same area, and sought to keep those they mistrusted, those who weren't like them racially, or culturally, out of that area. They would refuse to sell them food, clothing, refuse them medical care, refuse to bury them, refuse to sell them homes. And they did just fine, as long as there were enough similar redneck-ish peeps around them to insulate their economic situation.
That's what you're arguing in favor of? Seriously?
I don't want to live in your world. I'll fight against it with my last breath.
Bend-over, if you want to shill the right way, don't post quite so much, and try not to sound like you've gone off your meds, because you need to learn how to pretend to be a troll to bust up a message board right, and you aren't ready for all that yet. Good luck in your new job shilly-shillin'…
Wow this YAF group really is a bunch of wackos. I don't know any other word to describe them (is this article real??). So lets take what they say about Ron Paul and use the opposite words– they must support opposite of Ron Paul. They don't support Ron Paul because of his ""delusional and disturbing alliance with the fringe Anti-War movement." So then we should support the YAF because of their "believable and comforting alliance with the fringe War movement." So there you go, the YAF are for war, so they are terrorists.
The funniest part from the YAF state "God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children." We hear a lot of terrorist make very similar claims that God tells them things (if God blessed our country surely he told this group or how else would they know). YAF you are delusional and very disturbing.
Well statements like "Claiming every little message board post that is anti-Paul is some paid covert opp.." is a bit of a straw man attack. I didn't make the original remarks, but I was defending the person who made them. I fully understand why someone would suspect that there are people, who work for people like Aaron Barr (in this case CPAC), that would be on a website as popular as RawStory, trying to discredit Paul and slow his momentum. Seeing Cheney jeered must have surely signified how far out of their hands things are getting.
I do get your point. But one thing I want to mention is that, in 2011, it is the conspiracy (merely the act of conspiring) theory stuff that is often more credible than the "it's just an isolated incident" point of view. If you read the Greenwald piece I linked you'd likely agree.
This class act thinks that MY posts have nothing intelligent in them. Was the post above supposed to be one sentence? Did you ever go to school?
No, I call it as I see it when an illiterate spews ill-thought-out bullshit. It's the old story: people DO judge you by the way you dress, speak, write, etc.
You're right, actually. It would be much more satisfying to see them go out in a long-drawn out, humiliating way!
Just remember, listening to a Ron Paul speech may be bad for your health.
You might find yourself actually believing in liberty, which would make your social life problematic.
It's much easier to be part of the crowd and simply spew liberal dogma that is ultimately predicated on violent theft since it makes you sound like a caring person.
For example: I care about the poor, therefore I support using weapons against those who produce to relieve them of their property in order to make the life of poor people more enjoyable.
I care about old people, therefore I support using weapons against the working youth in order to force them to pay into a Ponzi retirement system.
Yes, that would be satisfying.
"WE"?? "WE can win…"?? You're CANADIAN, remember? You can't even frigging VOTE for your beloved Ron Paul.
Your opinions don't count for diddly down here. You see, "we" don't have universal, single-payer health care. "YOU" do, you miserable hypocrite.
Get lost, eh?
Thanks for the links. My take:
Link 1. Hypothetical question of do you think the government should shut down? Well, it's a 44 second sound bite where you don't here all of Paul's hypothetical answer of yes. The truth is he doesn't want to shut down the gov. any more than you do; he does however want to get rid of certain agencies. The artical goes on to say that in 1995 Newt Gingrich orchestrated a four week shutdown of the government. I don't like Gingrich but as Speaker he only can stop certain monies from going out (the House is responsible for the budget), but he doesn't have the power to shut down the gov. I doubt the president can do it either. I was working for the military in 1995 and trust me they didn't shut down. Neither did the CIA, FBI, FAA, SEC, congress, or any other essential agency. NASA didn't shut down either; they wouldn't abandon astronauts in space. That's why they do continuing resolutions when there are differences on the budget and it can't get passed.
Link 2. This is about Paul's long standing position that there are parts (one paragraph in particular, don't remember which) of the CRA 1964 which violate personal property rights. Paul has said he would like to see that part removed. And no, disagreeing with certain aspects of the CRA doesn't make you a racist. He is interpreting it from a Constitutionalist/Libertarian point of view. Here is a speech he gave before Congress where he talks about his position (agree or disagree): http://ronpaulpresident.blogspot.com/2010/05/trouble-with-64-civil-rights-act.html. BTW, it was the southern Democrats (Dixicrats), many of who were members of the KKK, which almost caused the CRA to not be passed. They didn't get along with northern democrats, so some started their own party, others left to join the republicans in the 70s. That was the start of the republican party swing from being champions of equal rights (think Lincoln) to a party of religious right neo-cons. As a libertarian I would like to see Paul leave the republican party; but the truth is that even though he has a lot of ideological differences with the neo-cons, an independent can't get elected to anything in this country, and you can thank the Dem-Rep duopoly for that. So Paul chooses to change from within.
Link 3. Youth opt out of government services. I don't have a problem with that. As long as you pay your taxes, you should be allowed to opt out. I would like to opt out and not pay into social security, but the government says I have to. Apparently, they think they can invest my money for me better than I can. I disagree. Social security is on course to be broke by 2037, at the time I'll be retiring. So what will it get me?
Link 4. Wow, talk about a rehash of old news. I thought this stuff had been put to bed. Ron Paul has claimed, and no evidence to support otherwise, that he didn't write the newsletters. He has taken responsibility for allowing his name to be published on a newsletter and not paying attention to what was in it. Austin NAACP president Nelson Linder who has known Paul for over 20 years came to his defense and said that he didn't believe Paul would write those, and he has never known Paul to be a racist.
Just because you may have ideological differences with someone doesn't mean you have to assume the worst in that person.
This young enthusiast should join up to defend this great country of ours against the evil doers who surround us. He'd have to drop some poundage, but he obviously has the commitment to sweat for Old Glory. He might cry the first time he's bitch-slapped in basic, but he'll rise to the occasion, dry those tears and chant those fond chants. Like…there's the school where the children play, I pull out my Uzi and begin to spray…Kill Kill You Know I Will.
In fact, why don't we all demand that his proud patriot strap it on and shake it up? Perhaps some undercover IVAW members could recruit him!
No, I'm not confused. Our government HAS enacted social policy into law. That is the crux of the argument. I guess my view comes from my suspicion that the government doesn't have my best interest in mind. The fact is they don't create an equal playing field. With every law, there is a lobbyist or fat cat willing to pay the government for favors or to look the other way. Our whole government way of doing business revolves around it. Everyday there is at least one story about a celebrity or rich person getting away with something. If I did half of what Lindsay Lohan or Charlie Sheen did they would lock me up and throw away the key because I have neither fame nor fortune. And these are the same celebrity types that preach equal rights, unless of course it's them. A poor black man wouldn't be afforded the same treatment.
I may not agree with someone refusing service or to do business with someone because of their predjudice, but in a free society as long as you are not harming someone you should have the right to choose.
Wow, still rehashing the old stuff. Again, I refer you to statements by Nelson Linder who has known Ron Paul much better than you for over 20 years; and he speaks volumns over any newsletters of dubious origins.
And now you resort to guilt by association. So because Louis Farrakhan, a known Islamic fundamentalist and anti-semite, was a huge Obama supporter I can draw the conclusion that Obama is an anti-semite? I think not.
Yeah. And when the Republicans won control of the House in 2010 they said, "We can't afford all these domestic programs, some asshole ran up the debt".
P.S. When you add up the costs of all the wars and other Bush adventures, it amounts to several TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS. And, the reason the Bush deficits weren't bigger, is because, he left the cost of the war "off the books" for other generations to deal with it, – Obama.
Well, that's because you took it out of context. The discussion was Civil Rights Act 1964, so I was talking in terms of Federal assistance, such as a federally subsidized small business loan, etc. The government assistance you refer to is local. Yes everyone is a recipient of assitance by police, fire, etc. But it's not free, it was paid for by the business through their taxes, just as it is for you and me. So we are not "taking" anything, we have paid for that assistance. It is possible for people to own a small business and not be "taking" assistance that wasn't paid for through taxes. So why should the govenment tell me who I can or cannot do business with? It really comes down to contracts; and the Fed gov. is supposed to enforce contracts, not create them.
So call me stupid if you want. Sticks and stones. But you can't tell the difference between federal assistance programs and local government services paid through taxes.
The YAF is almost an oxymoron. They're a bunch of old neo-cons; not sure how many young ones are in it.
While I would like to see Paul go independent, it would not be in his best interest. The Dem-Rep duopoly has such a hold on this country that independents can't get any footing. They don't allow them in the debates and an independent will get no press. The only way Paul can be seen on the national stage is by being in one of the major parties. Ross Perot was the last independent to get on the national stage — and he had to buy his way on.
"The United States is the world's leader – a beacon of light for the wretched and the oppressed," YAF National Chairman Michael Jones added. "God has blessed the United States with liberty and the strength and heart to spread that liberty to all of his children. Rep. Paul has abandoned this mission, abandoned the United States' citizens, and abandoned the citizens of the world in their quest for their God-given natural right"
I lol'd.
If anyone was duped, it would be those of us who count ourselves as Conservative Democrats. We were deceived into voting for a Liberal Nazi Bigot like Obama. Now we merely count ourselves as Blue-Dog refugees.
Never before have I known of a "Commander and Chief" to be held in such distain by the vast majority of those he is supposed to command, as this pompous self-servient poser.
As for the joke organization YAF and its leader Marx, it is they who are betraying our troops by supporting a war, which has come to stand for the opposite of everything we are putting our lives on the line to defend.
If they truly want to know if we should still be in this war, let them try asking it of us before they dare claim to speak on our behalf.
If history has taught us anything, it would be this, if you truly want to know if a war is just in its cause, ask those who have the courage to fight it, not those who have only the courage to start it or perpetuate it, all the while avoiding the sacrifices that arise from it.
Perhaps they could explain to our brothers and sisters in harm's way, why we are dying for a war that remains just only for the gutless wonders of YAF, those who themselves are too cowardly to fight it.
They might as well tell us of what oath of duty they have taken, less they sacrifice their right to judge as piers those who have sworn themselves to the duty of service. It is easy to denounce the honor of another, when one fails to possess such a thing as honor with-in themselves.
Wars are not fought with hollow meaningless words as those being spewed forth by the cowards of YAF; nor are they what is spilt upon the battlefield. Such instruments of failed political ignorance are what cause Wars, and never serve to end them. Only those willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice are capable of such a feat.
It is one thing to fight a war upon the moral grounds of liberty and freedom for all; it is entirely another thing to fight a war on the immoral grounds of the special interest of a self-anointed few.
When liberty and freedom no longer stand as our just cause, then every honored life sacrificed; both friend and foe, before and after, shall have been in vain. When war renders itself to any cause other than that of liberty and freedom, then that war must end, less it be deemed surrendered to defeat.
Ron Paul is one of the few Americans in DC with the guts and the backbone to stand-up to speak for the majority among us, for we are required by our oath of duty to surrender our right to openly voice our dissent.
Our votes go uncounted by intent, while our voices of truth are dutifully silenced from all but those among ourselves. Thus, it is those with the courage to stand and speak against all odds as Ron Paul that we the majority chooses to support, and those such as YAF we deem to be our traitorous enemy.
I am not saying that there are no conspiracies, just that a lot of people like to jump right to that conclusion instead of exploring other explanations as well. And I am an avid Greenwald reader as he is probably the last of the great civil libertarian reporters in the (semi) mainstream. Guess I'm sensitive because I went out and voted for the doc in the '08 primary and then watched him get tarred and feathered as a racist for having his name on something Rockwell apparently wrote. Party over right there. Now I just want him to get some legit support and not have everything he says or does associated with "wackos" as is opponents like to label them.
Finally. Somebody nails it out of the park by saying Coulter, Horowitz, Palin, etc. (etc. being Michelle Malkin, Bill Kristol, Newt Gingrich and the rest of the war-mongering, global warming hoax proliferating Neo-CONS). Seems to me that Ron Paul has gone from "Kook" to mainstream. Seriously, how can anyone call less taxes, less debt-finance-spending, less war, less foreign intervention, no federal reserve manipulating the markets, and less government interference in our lives "kooky?" I don't get it.
Correct. Even though Rand Paul says the Tea Party movement hasn't been co-opted, I have to disagree. As long as Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Bill Kristol, and Newt Gingrich continue to use the Tea Party to get in power…it's a co-opted movement. I think many of the band wagon Tea Partiers are old school Bush Republicans who are disenfranchised with our government but can't think for themselves. When they see people like Palin, Beck, etc. ingratiate themselves with the Tea Party movement, they believe these people really care. It gets magnified when Fox, CNN, etc. glamorize it. It's like a bait and switch.
I wonder how many of these young americans for freedom have actually enlisted in their military. Yap may be a more appropriate acronym. Young americans for propaganda. My advice would be to join the IDF. Far less exposure to DU munitions and lots more unarmed civilians to target.
iRead, If you aren't getting the distinction between freedom of speech and personally infringing upon someone else's rights by now, then you probably aren't going to. I can say that I don't want to serve someone, on the grounds of their race or creed, because of the freedom of speech, it may not be morally or socially acceptable, but I am afforded that by the Bill of Rights. Every example you used in your reply to Adam, except for the one about teaching, is an example of physically infringing upon someone else, and is therefore illegal. If i choose to tell a child, or my child, that he can kill people that he doesn't like, then that's my right, and it is not technically illegal. It is morally reprehensible and I , or you I'm sure, wouldn't do that because it is so, but legally I do have that right! Now if I force that child to act upon that, and they or I actually hurt or kill someone else because of those beliefs, then that is obviously illegal. You really should 'iRead', and properly interpret, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, it would do you a world of good. Can I claim that I want to, or am going to, dump toxic waste? Or claim that I want to, or am going to, shoot my rifle whenever I want and play my music at full volume? Or even claim that I'm going to sell defective products to people? I most certainly can! It is when I actually undertake these things that i am infringing upon others, and it is at that point that they become illegal, morality and social acceptability notwithstanding. This is EXACTLY what Ron Paul and (I hope) Adam, were referring to, and if you would take the time to read more about Mr. Paul's motives and his agenda, you'd realize this. He is trying to adhere to the Constitution and, likewise, to the Bill of Rights. After all, the United States was not founded as a democracy, where 50.1% can tell 49.9% what to do, it was founded as a constitutional republic, where everyone is supposed to have a voice and decide what is best for themselves, as long as it doesn't infringe on others, of course. Now I'm not trying to insult you, and if you feel that I have done so I most graciously apologize. And I do understand, and appreciate, your passion on the subject. It's just that you're missing the point on this issue. I don't feel that Adam did a very good job explaining the entirety of his stance in his post, but I feel his basic intent was correct. And I also look forward to an exchange of ideas, and personal beliefs, with you in the future. But this is supposed to be the law of the land, like it or not!
Apparently, they've been brainwashed by the Dick Cheney neocons and have no idea of what a real "conservative" is. My suggestion for them is to change their name to something more fitting their organization like "Young Americans for Facism"
I like your ideas but, with one exception – organized political parties will never get us what we want and need. What is needed is for a revolt like what is happening in the Middle East and to some extent in Europe but, didn't go far enough.
By the time ANY political party gains national prominence it is always infiltrated by the "Ruling Elite" to sway them toward THEIR goals, which are to screw the Middle Class and to blame the wrong people for their dilemma.
Look at the Tea Party. They say "I Want My Country Back". What does that mean? Obama was in office only three months when they began saying things like that. They were blaming Obama for the deficit, for turning the country into a fascist state, for all the unemployment, and for creating "death panels" as part of his health care reform bill. THE TEA PARTY ARE A BUNCH OF ASSHOLES, but they don't know it. That's how good the manipulators are. They can turn ANYTHING around to suit their needs.
The ONLY thing that will work in this country is for the general population to revolt against the subtle tyranny that is seen in the news media, our representatives who pretend to care, and for the Ruling Elite on Wall Street who are the true rulers in this country. The White House, both houses of Congress, the CIA, the NSA, etc., all take their marching orders from the Wall Street crowd. Nothing short of a general revolt will work – and they KNOW IT!!
The Democrats and Republicans are in the "back pocket" of the Lobbyists and Wall Street. And, what the Tea Party represents is a "safety valve", of sorts, that lets the people "blow off a little steam" to help assuage their fears. The Communists in Russia used the same tactics. They actually encouraged a few demonstrations as a way of relieving pressure from all the frustration the Communist system produced. Only after the Soviet Union started going broke did the people actually rise up and DEMAND CHANGE! That is what we need hear and will happen hear. But, first we have to stop listening to their lies and bullshit and STOP ORGANIZING POLITICAL PARTIES. That is EXACTLY what the Ruling Class want us to do. A general revolt against the Ruling Class is what brought down Mubarak and Ben Ali in Tunisia, not a political party.
P.S. What I mean by the "Wall Street crowd" also includes the banks and insurance companies like AIG. That's where the "Sub-Prime" fiasco started – not within Fanny and Freddy Mac. And, don't blame Barny Frank. He is small potatoes when compared with the real Movers and Shakers on "Wall Street".
Please, someone, tell Rand Paul to get rid of that rug. It looks ridiculous and seems to be alive.
Your comment deserves a "Duh".
If any entrepreneur decides to open an establishment to serve the public, that establishment should be required, by law, to serve anyone who is orderly, law abiding, respectful of others and has the money to pay for services rendered. That's what Civil Rights is all about.
If you own a PRIVATE club NOT open to public enrollment, then, you have a right to select who can join your club. Public and private fall under different laws that govern human behavior.
The problem with Rand Paul is, I think the glue he uses to fasten his hair piece is affecting his brain.
P.S. To Rand Paul: Is that thing alive?
Every time I see the "Avatar" you use I always think of the same thing. The Saudi King is saying; More tongue.
i wonder how many YAF's are enlisting in our military to keep our country and national interests safe ???
Apparently, yvonneo, frantaylor, benway, and iRead don't know the difference between government assistance and government services — I'll get to that in a moment.
My original post was to point out that Paul has an ideological problem with a portion of CRA1964, that being that it violates individual property rights, which was foundation for the Constitution. He doesn't disagree on other CRA titles such as voting rights, desegregation, nondiscrimination of federally assisted programs, etc.
Posters here see having an ideological difference with CRA as being racist, although it covers a lot more than race.
This is my attempt to put a little more thought into my post and be more clear. I don't profess to be an expert on the matter, and I'm sure I don't explain my position as well as I could. I don't think people will understand where Paul is coming from until they understand individual property rights. I don't expect any of you to change your views based on what I post, just try to understand that opposing views aren't always rooted in racism as many of you seem to believe.
So I refer you to UCLA Emeritus Professor of Economics Armen Alchian who explains property rights in this article:
I don't like how the word racism has been thrown about, especially for anyone who disagrees with our first black president. Agreed, that some of it is warrented, but the majority is not. Unfortunately is cheapens and deminishes real acts of racism, where steps should be taken to rectify. It is possible to have philosophical and ideological differences without being a racist.
A politician not supporting CRA doesn't make him/her a racist, were you aware that JFK didn't vote for CRA1957, which laid the groundwork for CRA1964? There are many reasons politicians will or wont vote for a piece of legislation. Sometimes it is just one paragraph which is a dealbreaker. In JFK's case it was to appease southern democrats, whom he thought he would need their vote.
Differences between government assistance and government services. My original argument included a statement about government assistance which some of you interpret as government service.
Government services are those provided by local (city/county), state, and federal governments. They are mostly paid for by property taxes, sales taxes, taxes/fees on your phone and utility bills, etc. Those services would include police, fire, road work, public transportation, etc.
Government assistance is a wide range of programs to aid individuals, groups, businesses, and even local and state governments. Welfare and foodstamps would be considered individual assistance programs. Monies could be given to non-profits, etc. for groups that do work the government considers beneficial to society. Federal assistance to businesses is wide ranging. From subsidizing farmers for crops the government feels it is necessary to have, to giving tax-free money to small businesses in areas deemed to be part of a redevelopment plan. This is what I am refering to.
I also refer you to these additional articles about property rights and the Constitution.
And for those of you who resort to name calling, you show your true colors — that you can't come up with anything constructive or thought provoking to add. I suggest you try to think for yourself. Whatever you think of my opinions at least I'm trying to add to the discussion.
I trust this thread will soon be dead. Good day.
I understand the concept of libertarianism as explained by old-timer Vietnamese:
The Kingdom's power ends at the Province, the Province's power ends at the Village, the Village's power ends at the Hamlet, and the Hamlet's power ends at the door.
I like that.
But it kind of assumes people's mutual good-intent and care. And as we see today, as long as a practice is not illegal and may potentially be lucrative despite harm done to others' air, water, etc. (the public commons), well…a corporation's gonna damned well do it. Fracking and cyanide leaching of ores are examples that spring immediately to mind. (Paper mills, meat-packing plants, hog farms, tanneries, etc. You get the idea.) They all generate harmful emissions/effluents/sludge. Either it has to be contained before it gets into, oh…ground-water, garden/farm soil, streams, etc., or it has to be treated. Because the harm it does to environmental productivity and, therefore/obviously human health has a quantifiable cost, and someone–or else all of us–pay the cost. (Health costs, increase in food prices from sub-optimal water/soil, blah, blah.) So…someone has to know how much of what is unhealthy and/or dangerous, and we as a society agree to not exceed the limits we understand. (No back-yard nuclear weapons testing. I know….dang.) Public responsibility and all that happy horseshit.
Now, if you have private property and don't use any public accommodations like water & sewer, stormdrains, etc. paid for out of common tax revenues (local, state, or federal) then as long as you're not directly harming anyone else…hey, do whatever you want. Serve whomever you choose to, or choose not to. People do alla time. They call 'em 'private clubs'. (Actually, they even do this within city jurisdictions some places, using publicly financed infrastructure, and I got no beef with 'em.)
And freedom of speech, as far as I'm concerned, should be pretty much unimpeded altogether (except for the usual 'yelling fire in a crowded theater' proscriptions)…in public spaces, media, academia, government, military, police, secret-agent boogie men…..er, people. All of 'em, flatly, without reservation, save that the message/messenger can't intrude in your personal or private space w/o consent. (You know…as long as it can't be called assault or invasion.) And "news" has to be sourced fact, not breathless twaddle. And corporations are NOT people. (I dream.)
My examples were all facetious. My inner cynic. Stated as examples of plainly foolish, but possibly not illegal, activities. Most of us know better, and care, and wanna do good things vs. bad things. But there are gazillions of us. All of us with opinions and egos and bad days. Some of us with really, really fucked-up childhoods. A few with major give-a-shit deficits. And every once in a while someone with all that shit and a really ill attitude. Like you said–can't tell 'em shit, and they don't care who they fuck with or piss off.
It's because of those, who statistically constitute a whole lot of people in any sizeable city, that we all gotta have regs. And not just that, but even more so because there ARE gazillions of us…here, there, all over the goddamned place, that we have to be kinda' careful that we do most of what we do responsibly. If not for ourselves, for everyone else who inevitably has to fix/clean/pay for…or just does not profit from…whatever negative externality. It does all boil down to common sense. And common sense says you hafta' regulate a lot of common sense. Not our fault you say?
No, it isn't our fault. There's too much stuff that really is common sense that hardly ANYONE has any time to think about or understand. (Analogy: You didn't know electricity could kill you until someone told you. And you wouldn't drink drain cleaner–even if it smells nice and refreshing–not because you tried it, but because someone took the time to understand precisely how corrosive it is. You may not know that stockpiling animal waste on your property for future use as fertilizer can sicken or kill you or your neighbors, but it's true.) Since not everyone can personally verify everything, we have to have standards by which we judge public safety, and public welfare. And apparently, to look at the Exxons, BPs, Union Carbides, Monsantos, Narus's, and their ilk, we have to vigorously enforce them.
Or, that's kind of the point I've been trying like hell to beat all the way into the ground, anyway:
Just like for the old-timey Vietnamese (and early USA-type Americans; homesteaders, etc.) the Hamlet's power stopped at the door, libertarianism has to ultimately end at shared responsibility.
My understanding was that our country was constituted as a Federal Republic…certainly a Federal Republic set forth BY and UNDER a constitution. (The Federalist Papers were so long ago…brain hurts. Damn you, Publius!)
And you're right about the 50.1 v 49.9%; the "Tyranny of Majority" of which Jefferson, et. al warned. The bi-cameral legislature and Supremes were supposed to be our firewall. Oops.
(Proportional voting, anyone?)
Dooood, you in no way insult me by speaking your mind. We're supposed to be able to "argue" in the classical sense, without anger; without tearing each other apart. And when I'm misinformed/uninformed, or being idiot/asshole, I expect to hear about it. No apologies necessary.
And the law of the land is like the river of which Heraclitus spoke so long ago: "Upon those who step into the same rivers, different and again different waters flow." Or at least there is a tension to it, such that it is ever pulling back and forth from conservative to liberal.
Keep thinking. Keep writing.
I wonder how many tea party members and republicans (I repeat myself) realize that the FINANCIAL COST of a war, notwithstanding the DRAIN ON THE INTERIOR, is not traceable? How many trillions disappear into a SECRET MILITARY BUDGET, walled off from audit? And they want THAT defended?
By the way, 60% of Wall Street now belongs to the Germans. It's the ONLY money maker left in America. The crash is coming… big time.
Weren't they called "Brown Shirts" back in the day?
Right out of the text book…
"YAF are a bunch of fascist youth which I've witnessed first hand. Scary bunch…" If that is true – and I believe you are right – question is… Why was RP working with them in the first place?
Are you marooned?
The "hollow names with false faces" will probably be voting for your next president (if you are American). And besides, What are you actually arguing and talking about yourself – are you against ppl who are doing what you are doing?
More fuel to my fire my friend. – http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/16/uncovered-fox-news-deceptively-used-old-cpac-footage-to-smear-ron-paul/
I wasnt wishing anybody to be murdered – I was simply saying that for someone to call Ron Paul Treasonus because he does not support the war – that those people, who have never fired a weapon in anger towards anyone, should go sign up for the military….oh, why am I explaining this?
Sorry, I misunderstood. Read it too fast, I guess.
So the KKK wants to book your restaurant dining hall for their next big meet: they promise to conduct themselves civilly.
The YAF are interminably corrupted by Neo-conservative warmongering ideology. Genuine conservatives deplore such despicable and sinistrous ideology.
There is no resemblance whatsoever between Jordan Marks' stated position and the ideas and ideals of the U.S. Constitution. Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are war criminals who have run roughshod over the Constitution and international humanitarian law. Real American partiots should have nothing to do with these people except to denounce them for the traitors that they are.
The YAF are interminably corrupted by Neo-conservative warmongering ideology. Genuine conservatives deplore such despicable and sinistrous ideology.
I see no resemblance between Jordan Marks' statements and the ideas and ideals of the U.S. Constitution. Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are war criminals who have run roughshod over the Constitution and international humanitarian law. Real American partiots should have nothing to do with these people except to denounce them for the traitors that they are.
Here's some more scary stuff – http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/18/revealed-air-force-ordered-software-to-manage-army-of-fake-virtual-people/
No but there is a pattern of bullshit and it follows all the same discredited arguments..
No, no racism, here..just bullshit by you.
Well you are going to be stuck with the bullshit you have now so people like you should not complain if you vote for anyone else.
That constitution is goofy huh..
Actually you are wrong, he supports soldiers who fought for us, stop listening to Sorros media like Huffington post.
no no its true, my government does it in Canada, China does it..many corporations do.
FUCK YOU you obsessed little freak, like I said before, what affects you people affects us..so fuck you.
days late, dollars short
btw, you add nothing to the conversation, and your moniker is absurd;
Ron Paul is human. Human strengths, human weaknesses. As soon as he says anything incorrect (as all of us on occasion do) your moniker makes you the ultimate rube/FAIL.
go back ta sleep
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