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AICN COMICS REVIEWS: GREEN LANTERN! ROCKETEER! JL8! Plus OPINIONS ARE LIKE @$$HOLES: Optimous Douche on the Liefeld Twitter Meltdown!
|Issue #17
|Release Date: 8/22/12
(Click title to go directly to the review)
Advance Review: GREEN LANTERN ANNUAL #1
Advance Review: JUSTICE LEAGUE #12
Opinions Are Like @$$Holes: Optimous Douche on Rob Liefeld!
Advance Review: In stores today!
GREEN LANTERN ANNUAL #1Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Ethan Van Sciver
Publisher: DC Comics
Reviewer: Optimous Douche
What a wonderful tidy bow for the great gift that has been the GREEN LANTERN universe over the past year.
GREEN LANTERN, CORPS and NEW GUARDIANS have been the perfect example of tight continuity without ever forcing an upsell into the other books. Even this annual that touches on all three storylines never confuses or loses readers that choose to only partake in one or some of the GREEN LANTERN titles.
I was one of the first naysayers towards Sinestro getting the green ring at the launch of the New 52. I thought it was a fine and dandy story for longtime fans, but worried whether it would bring new readers into our great comic commune. About three issues in as I reveled in the adventures of Sinestro leading Hal Jordan around the galaxy like a dog on a leash with the puppet ring Sinny created, I decided to say fuck the new readers and just enjoy my reading.
And enjoy I did. And not just GREEN LANTERN. I reveled in Kyle Rayner's tribulations with the other ring wielders in the emotional spectrum aboard the literal Galaxy Class Starship over in NEW GUARDIANS. I truly felt the emotional turmoil in CORPS as Jon Stewart once again killed and Guy Gardner rallied the corps around him. Everything about the GL titles was a seamless transition from old universe to new and continued to build on the deepening darkness of BLACKEST NIGHT, while giving us a brief respite of hope for a brighter tomorrow.
Until I read this annual. Get ready for the Third Army folks; it ain't going to be pretty.
We start a heartbeat after the last issue of GREEN LANTERN, Hal Jordan is back on Earth with Sinestro and Black Hand. Johns is best with emotion, and unless you're a heartless bastard, you will feel literal pain as Black Hand taunts Hal with the possible resurrection of his Father.
In parallel we have the Guardians of the Galaxy continuing their derailing into insanity as they come to the grand epiphany they have been mismanaging the universe for the last Billion years (sorta like Goldman Sachs). The key to control isn't harnessing willpower like they did with the Corps, nor does it lay in creating emotionless droids like the Manhunters. No, the true path to control lies in the abolition of free will and they have a secret weapon in the First Lantern to accomplish this task.
What happens next is kind of gross, kind of creepy and all together bad news for the celestial frontier as we close out 2012. Apparently the Guardians procreate and create new life in much the same fashion I used to combine Play-Do packages until my parents would restock me. That's right the Third Army is the Guardians…or at least the amalgam of their matter fused together and powered by the First Lantern.
Many mysteries are left unanswered after this issue, you know sorta like a serialized story should run. What will happen from the prophecy in the Big Black Book that said Hal Jordan will become the greatest Black Lantern of all time? I should mention Hal and Sinestro meet their "demise" in this tale, but we've been here before I have no doubt Hal will be sporting emerald again in a few months. While the future for Kyle, Guy and John Stewart seems to be steeped in battling the third army and hopefully at last knocking the little Blue Bastard Guardians off of their haughty and high galactic perch.
Oh ya, Ethan Van Sciver simply rules the page, but that's not really news.
Optimous has successfully blackmailed fellow @$$Hole BottleImp into being his artist on Average Joe. Look for Imp's forced labor on Optimous brain child in mid-2012 from COM.X. Friend Optimous on FaceBook to get Average Joe updates and because ceiling cat says it's the right thing to do.
ZORRO RIDES AGAIN #11Writer: Matt Wagner
Artist: John K. Snyder III
Publisher: Dynamite Entertainment
Reviewer: Masked Man
Matt Wagner has really worked hard on building his world of Zorro. After 31 issues and two series we are now one issue away from his departure. He has built up so much material; I'm curious to see how much he can cover in his final issue. Everything about his time on Zorro has been slow and methodical. He took seven issues to tell Zorro's origin and nine issues to get Lady Zorro in costume. Mind you, he does cover more than one plotline per issue, but in some way that just drags things out more. What I do foresee, as I had hoped, is the three way slugfest between Zorro, Lady Zorro and El Galgo.
This issue was one of the better ones of the series. Since Wagner has to start wrapping things up, it was more focused than his usual Zorro comics and moves at a better pace. In it, all of Alta California is trying to deal with the bloody reign of Lady Zorro, who continues to murder soldiers. While most people don't appreciate corrupt law enforcement of the Alcalde, they are even less crazy about the bodies piling up around them. Zorro, of course is getting the blame for all this. So as Zorro works at tracking down the real killer, he has to deal with friends who are now suspect of him. Lady Zorro does have one positive effect for Zorro though. Zorro has been trying to drive the Alcalde crazy with paranoia, and nothing is doing that better than seeing his soldiers slaughtered. Unlike Wagner's former plot lines Zorro catches up to Lady Zorro pretty quickly- rather than stretching it out for six issues. El Galgo then makes a convenient appearance so the final issue can end with a bang!
If you aren't update with Wagner's Sgt. Gonzales, he is no longer the fat comic relief character. Wagner portrays him as a full on thug in uniform. But being defeated and scarred with 'z's many times by Zorro, he has lost his post and his sanity. Dubbing himself El Galgo, he chases Zorro around like a hound- as he is named. Lady Zorro, meanwhile lost her daughter and husband to the Alcalde's corrupt soldiers in issue #1, and has been building up for 'Zorro' inspired revenge ever since.
As with the past five issues, John K. Snyder III's art, greatly enhanced by Mike Malbrough's colors, really drives this issue home. It's a shame Snyder wasn't with Wagner on day one. His figure work is bold and his pages are dynamic and artistic. He also matches Wagner sensible quite well too. Snyder is a great comic book artist; I hope he gets on another regular book soon.
It really seems like these last six issues of Zorro will be Dynamite's best. Shame it took so long to get there.
Advance Review: In stores today!
JUSTICE LEAGUE #12Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Jim Lee
Publisher: DC Comics
Reviewer: Optimous Douche
For the past eleven months I truly thought I had lost my mind as I have been less than thrilled with the best damn selling book all year. Everyone loves this thing and I've felt like a salty old bastard for not feeling the same. It's not that I've hated JUSTICE LEAGUE, I just haven't really cared. The quips from GREEN LANTERN and FLASH have been fun, the fish jokes at AQUAMAN have provided sufficient guffaws, and BATMAN'S surliness was more than appropriate, but that's about it. Again, not bad, but this is JUSTICE LEAGUE damn it, the fulcrum for the promise of the New 52. This should be epic, gut wrenching and its events should shake all books within the DCU in some way, shape or form. Not an "event" per say, but I certainly want to see similar character development and alludes from one book to another. Also, the book is helmed by two of the biggest players in comics, but both Johns and Lee seem to have been giving their B game instead of the A+ goods.
The biggest problem, which I didn't fully realize until this issue, is that the villains have been merely ho-hum. This is JUSTICE LEAGUE damn it, they should be dealing with cataclysms of epic proportions while they ALSO deal with their personal issues. One should never be sacrificed for the other. For anyone that wants to argue I ask how much time did Darkseid get in the first arc? Three panels? One shot of Apokolips? New readers never understood how big and bad this New God truly is and old readers only received an eighth of the badness we've seen from Darkseid before. Likewise, with this arc's villain, Danny Graves, the man who blames the JUSTICE LEAGUE for the death of his family. Danny is a true delta, a man we simply didn't spend enough time with before he turned into the villain who haunts the JUSTICE LEAGUE with the ghosts from their past. Each character in the JUSTICE LEAGUE has their own book to explore their little idiosyncrasies; this book should be more about bad events and the villains who perpetrate those events.
I'm not going to say JUSTICE LEAGUE 12 is a spectacular book, because it's not. It's a transition period. But I will say there were spectacular moments in this book as we build towards Year Two of the New 52, and the upcoming JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA.
Most of the spectacularosity happens after the battle is won and the League saves the day. The Danny Graves story ends, and we move into the League asking, "The Battle's done and we kinda won, so we sing our victory cheer. Oh, where do we go from here?"
Well, I'll tell you. A sacrificial lamb, a love that could never be, and a love that should have been for the past fifty years were Johns' FINEST moments on JUSTICE LEAGUE to date.
Our lamb comes in a shade of emerald. Remember last issue when the League tussled (again)? Well, someone filmed the event and it ran on every network from Al-Jazeera to PBS. Since this iteration of the League was always "unstructured" at best, Hal Jordan decides to bow out. It's a tidy exit that makes sense and leaves him open for impending shit storm of The Third Army in GREEN LANTERN.
Our love that can never be is far from unrequited and this is the first time in eleven issues I felt a tonal harmony with the League version of WONDER WOMAN and the much darker character we see in WONDER WOMAN proper. She has been sort of dippy in this series, kind of like the opening scene of the Mary Tyler Moore show, spinning through the wondrous sights and sounds of the city. While in WONDER WOMAN proper she is a dark dark God slayer. It just didn't match up and the whole five year before excuse never held water with me, sorry. So, as Steve Trevor lies bruised and battered from the fight with Graves, WONDER WOMAN basically comes to the epiphany many heroes have had over the years, my existence puts your mortal ass in danger. Except Johns writes it with an eloquent tenderness and sweetness I just can't convey in paragraph form.
And last, but certainly not least – The Epic Super Kiss! As with real dating, the excitement and anticipation is not the kiss itself, but rather the moments leading up. Atop the Lincoln memorial WONDER WOMAN and SUPERMAN lament the unraveling of the League and both realize if it all falls apart they will lose any real and true connections to other beings. Again, don't let my words water down the moment, Johns expertly prolongs the longing and makes the kiss a more than logical end state.
After one year I can say with solidify critiques I was uncertain on: Five years before was a mistake, whether it was in ideology or execution will never be fully answered, but I'm leaning towards ideology. JUSTICE LEAGUE should have formed organically over time like it did so many years ago. They're joining just felt too damn random in this iteration. Although I will say it was a thousand times better than the last go round, when Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman reformed the League because, you know, there's always been a League.
Again, while I was less than enamored with this iteration, I am very hopeful for the decimation of this league and the rise of JUSTICE LEAGUE of AMERICA coming in 2013. The team looks like a bad ass combo of DC's most brutal players.
JL8Writer: Yale Stewart
Artist: Yale Stewart
Publisher: self-published
Reviewer: Lyzard
When DC launched the New 52, many fans felt betrayed. The alterations to these well-beloved characters were viewed as in-authentic to some loyal readers. This is why I love JL8 (former known as Little League). Instead of changing Batman, Superman, and their fellow Justice League members, Yale Stewart takes a look at their already established characteristics. The unique twist: Stewart goes down the Tiny Toons route. JL8 follows Wonder Woman and the team in grade school.
The comic is presented in strip form, with consistent updates every Monday and Thursday. Along with key figures like Barry Allen, J'onn J'onzz, and Hal Jordan (all of the characters are spoken to by their true identities), side characters such as Alfred Pennyworth are included, and even villains like Lex Luthor and Poison Ivy appear as a group of playground bullies. My favorite cameo, though, has to be Darkseid as the gym teacher.
What makes the strip fun to read is that not only does JL8 stay true to the characters (Bruce's timeout turns into a brooding smorgasbord), but it still allows itself to be parodic, commenting on some of the current incarnations of the Justice League. One arc involved Bruce, Clark, and Hal getting new (non-underwear showing) costumes. But at its heart, JL8 is fun. For those female readers out there (because no matter what the general public thinks, we know that we exist), Bruce using a stuffed robin as a security blanket/diary will no doubt make you (and men in touch with their feelings) go awww.
Despite the cartoony style of the strip, JL8 is aimed to the fans, beyond the obvious younger audience. Stewart's passion for these characters comes through, not just through the content but exemplified by the character design as well. I can imagine that this is how these superheroes might have acted if placed in this setting, but how they would have been portrayed as well.
Find JL8 at on Facebook or at jl8comic.tumbler.com.
Lyzard is actually Lyz Reblin, a senior screenwriting major with an English minor at Chapman University. Along with writing for AICN, she has been published twice on the subject of vampire films.
FABLES #120Writer: Bill Willingham
Art: Mark Buckingham & Shawn McManus
Publisher: DC Vertigo
Reviewer: Henry Higgins is My Homeboy
It Starts To Fall Apart...
Fables has been, with relative ease, one of the most impressive comic book series of the past decade. There's been an immense number of well written and beautifully crafted comics over those ten years, but Fables has always remained at the top of the heap. Deftly blending epic adventures with beautiful interpersonal relationships, Fables does so much almost painfully easy. And one of the series most enticing prospects has been, since the infamous teaser starring Ambrose ages ago, the Cubs. The children of Snow and Bigby have slowly been garnering more and more attention from the title, and the book has been on fire because of it. The frantic search for Dare and Therese is slowed, instead focusing completely on their individual attempts to survive Toy Island. Slowly, the events force both to make terrible choices, but for opposite reasons; it's a wonderful character study, and one of the best issues of Fables released in recent memory.
Writing: (5/5) Willingham has been consistently amazing with the diverse and varied cast of characters he's created, but it's always a treat to see the series focus instead on specific players. Darian is given much of the issue towards his inner struggle, coming to terms with the choice he knows he has to make but dreads all the same. As Dare limps down the beach, he struggles and plans, trying to find any other way out of his predicament. It's heartbreaking to watch, as he defiantly tries everything he can, giving into hope, and being utterly crushed when it fails to support him. When he finally collapses in grief, fully aware that there's only one option left, it's the first time we've really noticed he's just a child. The severity of their plight has forced the reader, if only momentarily, to forget that these are children, forced to make heavy decisions. Darian finally coming to terms with his fate is full of rightful dread.
It also exposes an interesting parallel between himself and Therese. The events have tried and tested both, and while Therese has faltered under the title of Queen and given into savagery, Darian instead stays true to his position as Pack Leader and makes the hard decisions. Therese instead worries as soon as she learns Dare is on the island, because there simply isn't enough food for both of them. It's a theme reinforced in the short continuation of Buffkins invasion of Oz, in the comparison between The Nome King and Buffkin. Nome King allows a seemingly forgettable event to become an insult, which soon turns into a massacre and an empty show of power. Buffkin instead possesses true, unparalleled power in the form of his golden cap. But instead of using it to become an unparalleled force, he instead keeps a great sense of caution around it.
"I don't want to go mad and drunk with power."
Willingham blends both themes up and around one another, converging all of it on Dare's decision. It's a wonderfully written look at power and the responsibility that comes with it, and how that power can just as easily bring out the best in us as it can the worst.
Art: (4/5) Not giving Buckingham full marks isn't meant to be a slight. Rather, much of the art throughout the issue is very well done. The toys of the island retain their consistently ragged appearance. It's done in just a way that they immediately bring to mind the lost toys of yesteryear and force the reader to sympathize with them. But Buckingham manages to also make them slightly off-putting, just enough to raise suspicions. It's a wonderful design choice, and it conveys a certain degree of malevolence well. Darian's walks across the beach are wonderfully understated, giving Dare and the reader an underlying sense of dread the entire time. There is nothing, nothing else on this beach. Which means there is no help, and there is no help coming. It makes a broad setting feel claustrophobic. If there's really anything wrong, it's just that it doesn't feel like Buckinghams A-Game. Dares vision of an older Ambrose is much more inconsistent than the rest of the book, with beautiful stain glass esque shots next to the muddled Bigby and Snow. It's good art throughout the issue, but some small annoyances crop up. Buckingham still does more with this issue than most other artists can do in a story, but the problems don't go unnoticed. He does blend together seamlessly with Lee Louridge on colour, who is a marvel all their own.
Shawn McManus knocks out the Buffkin chapter, and it looks beautifully stylized and consistent. It's short, but manages to combine a very cartoony and fluid feel with some simply fantastic character cues. Without the dialogue, the story would still move along at the same clip, the feelings and motives of the characters beautifully conveyed.
Best Moment: "The pack leader has responsibility, right?"
Worst Moment: Some of the smaller art beats.
Overall: (4/5) An awesome issue of an ungodly awesome series.
ROCKETEER: CARGO OF DOOM #1Writer: Mark Waid
Artist: Chris Samnee
Publisher: IDW Publishing
Reviewer: Masked Man
It seems that Mark Waid and Chris Samnee are a pretty prefect team. They have been knocking out great issues of Daredevil, and now they've turned to the Rocketeer. It's nice to see IDW taking the plunge with a new Rocketeer series (ok, mini-series), after all the two anthologies. The Rocketeer is such a great icon character by the late Dave Stevens that he deserves to stay in print. And as great as the anthologies stories were, they didn't have the meat that a series can have.
Now how often have you read a first issue and said, "Another boring set-up issue. Well I guess they're all like that." Waid proves that's just BS with this issue. Sure it introduces the cast, setting, and basic plot- but instead of just filling out a list of ingredients like most first issues, Waid builds it more as a story right off the bat. If you want to know how to write a first issue that won't bore your audience, well here it is.
So first we get to meet our heroes and their world. Yes, on some level it's the same old tired cliches of Secord and Betty we've gotten from the anthologies. But Waid goes beyond that with other characters and early subplots, like young Sally and Mr. Feeney- what a creep. Then he jumps right into the villains, giving us a small glimpse at the 'cargo of doom'. A real, "what the hell was that!" moment. Waid even pulls out some lesser known Rocketeer characters like the thug Werner Guptmann. Even if you don't know Guptmann (and seriously why would you) Waid builds an interesting history into him right off the bat. More proof that Waid knows how to write a comic book better than anyone! The issue ends not only with the start of a subplot but the near completion of one as well- see not just a set-up issue. Plus the typical cliff hanger you'd expect from this genre.
Chris Samnee, who is not as polished as I'd like, delivers a good looking book regardless. Samnee's art reminds me of Frank Robbins's early work and Milton Caniff- though not as strong as Caniff's work (unfair comparison I'm sure). Though unlike his Daredevil work, Samnee's pencils seem better suited for the Rocketeer. With a superhero book I expect to see a little more flash than what Samnee's raw pencils have (though I'm not talking as much flash as Liefeld- let's be serious here). But in a more pulp tale, like the Rocketeer an unfinished edge works well. Samnee's storytelling is about prefect here as well.
So for a first issue, I'd say Waid and Samnee crushed this one out of the park. And kudos to Jordie Bellaire coloring for creeping me out with those eyes on page nine!
@robertliefeldWriter: Rob Liefeld
Artist: .jpgs & .gifs
Publisher: Twitter
Reviewer: Optimous Douche
A train wreck occurring at ground zero of Hiroshima is the only way I can describe the cataclysm that was Rob Liefeld's departure from DC last week. I don't know whether it says more about the state of comics or my propensity for Schadenfreude when the most engaging material last week was not AvX or BEFORE WATCHMEN, but rather the ramblings of a petulant man child on Twitter about his "mistreatment' in the one of the greatest jobs ever created. I know the grass is always greener on the other side, but while we all toil away inside cube farms or perform manual labor, the idea of being paid to simply imagine seems infinitely more promising than filling out TPS reports all day or asking if you want an extra shot of espresso in your gigundo mocha latte.
Being a comic creator or any kind or lucrative artist is a gift from the masses. It's an honor to receive the hard earned dollars of consumers simply for your ideas. And while artists have always been allowed to be eccentric or edgy to keep their craft well honed, at the end of the day this is a job. A job that Rob has never taken seriously as exhibited with his departure last week. Yes, he threw out the obligatory one off platitude to Didio to cover his ass, but what followed tells a very different story. In fact, as I scrolled through his tsunami of vitriol 140 characters at a time, I realized he honestly believes we should be thanking him; that corporate structures should bend to his will; and he lives behind a deflector shield from reality larger than the one on the Enterprise E.
Here's some Tweets:
This is the 4th time I quit in the last 4 months. This time it will stick
Very professional and responsible Rob, especially when 10% of America is out of work.
I had at least 20 editorial battles and won 80% but those battles wear you down.
Oh, wait, you mean you disagreed with an authority figure at work? Well, then by all means of course you should walk away from being published and receiving a paycheck. Only a child walks away from adversity especially when that source of adversity feeds your family and pays your mortgage. And 80% is a pretty big win especially when you try to draw figures whose legs look like they were placed on by a cross eyed mongoloid (See cover of GRIFTER for my akimbo proof).
Freelancers, tell your editor he works for you, not the other way around. Routinely fire them to remind then you call the shots.
What the sweet footless pouch laden flying fuck are you talking about? In what publishing model is the editor NOT in charge? In fact, it's the definition of the fucking word. I am going to punch the next editor in the mouth that reads these words and still hires the man. You have been warned.
Protect yourself--don't be a sheep. Remember that YOU make the books - have pride and say enough. You can make more money elsewhere
No Rob, most people can't. I have seen a slew of creators who are immensely more talented living off of Raman noodles. You were given a gift sir and you have proven once again you are not worthy of it. You were incinerated to ashes during the meltdown of the 90s, and some will say you helped push the buttons that launched the missiles of market destruction. Despite this fact, people still followed the words of the bible, "just because a man once bloweth donkeys, allow him to once again pet your donkey, he might not blow it this time." So we all gave you another chance when you were taken under the wing of Robert Kirkman and welcomed with open arms by your old comrade Jim Lee in 2011. After all, 15 or so years should more than enough time to learn the virtues of feet, guns with triggers, backgrounds beyond screen doors, anatomy, a hair style other than the 90's fade, physics, not all outfits come with copious amounts of pouches, mouths have lips, and last but certainly not least…CONTI-FUCKING-NUITY…from panel-to-panel.
Alas, this was not the case. What we received was simply more of the same old Rob from the 90s, minus the pollybagging and chromium covers. Little did I know that those things weren't marketing techniques, but rather shields from crappy material.
Now, obviously Rob is just not my cup of tea, but that's not why I'm here to bitch. I realize style is subjective and I have had direct conversations with people who are genuine fans of his work. While I know the comic erudite generally snigger when his name is mentioned, none of us should assume that all of his 40,000 Twitter followers are there to just make fun of him. I can look past style. I can agree to disagree with those who like their mouths lipless and their dialog written like a 4th graders book report. To each their own. What I am here to attack is Rob Liefeld's complete lack of dedication and professionalism.
Rob is not the only one to trumpet fallacies within DC's hallowed editorial halls. Recently Chris Roberson, George Perez and John Rozum had similar laments. Even personally, I'll admit that all 52 of the new titles were not a good idea. I have published proof where I state the entire universe should have been rebuilt using solely Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman as the fulcrum to create new ancillary characters more reflective of the 21st century. I was wrong though, characters like AQUAMAN who I truly believed was for another time period has been a damn engaging and entertaining read. Sales numbers show that the New 52 is working and creators like Geoff Johns, Scott Snyder, JMS and Brian Azzarello have all been able to create phenomenal content at DC. Why is this? Are they blowing every editor at DC to get their way? Perhaps. Or are their ideas good enough and engaging enough to entice readers? That's how an adult would look at the question and why the adult in me cringes as I read things like this:
As to LOBO, I was specifically directed not to adhere to the biker bad boy look. No leather jacket, no chains, skull, etc. Not my call.
That wasn't the problem with Lobo in DEATHSTROKE. The problem was horrid dialog, characters that looked one way in one panel and then a complete different way in the next panel. You know, the staples of your career. No matter what direction these horrid editors gave you, the problem lieth not in the plot, but the execution.
And in case you are counting, I haven't missed a deadline on a non-ensemble assignment in 4 years. Hit all my marks.
Hitting a date is not hitting a mark. You see, when you have a job to do you're supposed to do it well AND on time.
And you should be able to do it without driving and inking at the same time. For those that haven't seen the YouTube watch as Rob endangers his own life and others in the name of meeting a deadline:
Cool huh?
Even though Rob has no problems with the company he quit 4 times over and he has no issues with other creators, this little gem still found its way on to the Twitter playground.
From Scott Snyder - I can assure you batman doesn't sell the way it does because it's Batman. It sells that way because of me and Greg.
Get over yourself you pretentious prick @Ssnyder1835
Been berated in DM's by @Ssnyder1835 this morning. Excuse me if I don't marvel at your amazing abilities to write Batman. Piss off.
Professionalism and composure at its finest Rob. So Scott sent you a direct PRIVATE message that you then choose to spray all over the world wide Interwebs, Scott still has a job with DC and never had a book cancelled or asked to leave because of slumping sales. Can you say the same?
The last 100 insults go like this "blah, blah, blah - learn to draw feet.." rinse and repeat... You can do better than that!
All right Rob, I'm doing better. I don't care if you ever learn to draw feet, lips, anatomically correct forms or backgrounds. I'm asking you to grow the fuck up. I usually don't directly attack creators, separating the man or woman from the work they do. Just because I hate something, doesn't make the individual a bad person.
However, this is now the second time Liefeld has flipped the industry the bird and did so in a fashion to create controversy. The first time was when he left Marvel in the 90s because the corporate structure wasn't working for him. And now here we are again, fifteen years later repeating the past. Perhaps if Rob just walked away from these titles sans fanfare, I would believe his words of trying to preserve the purity of comics. Instead this all simply reads as the sour grapes of a man who can't recapture his former glory. A man who is basically the Jack Kavorkian of comics, only called in to help when the title is about to breathe its last dying gasp of air. Rob is proud of the fact he was able to tell DEATHSTROKE his way because it sold more than it did before he was on the title. Two times one may be a bigger number Rob, but bigger is not BIG and certainly not a sterling barometer of success.
Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me. Publishers should heed these words as well, lest you be the next target when Rob's books don't sell well.
Proofs, co-edits & common sense provided by Sleazy G
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Readers Talkbackcomments powered by Disqus
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Aug. 29, 2012, 8:31 a.m. CST
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 8:32 a.m. CST
Damn, can't even escape it when I don't review the damn thing - Foiled again by AUTO
by optimous_douche
Aug. 29, 2012, 8:32 a.m. CST
Rob will be okay as long as he keeps his feet on the ground
by Autodidact
Or, obscured within a foot-cloud.
Aug. 29, 2012, 8:33 a.m. CST
If I ever interviewed Liefeld one of the questions I'd ask is "How many teeth does the average person have?"
by Autodidact
I bet his answer would be like seventy.
Aug. 29, 2012, 8:35 a.m. CST
The fuck happened to Jim Lee
by Autodidact
No lie, I looked at that cover with Aquaman in thumbnail form and thought at first glance "ho hum another guy who learned to draw by looking at his Jim Lee X-Men comics." And then it's Jim Lee.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:01 a.m. CST
Jim lee is a wonderful artisit
by eric haislar
It's just that everything he draws looks like a cover. Which is a cool style I suppose. But like everything is a pose of a pose. Like I bet if he where to draw Batman opening his fridge. It would be Batman bulging muscles in the dark with only the light of the fridge lighting him, his cape blowing in the wind that comes from nowhere. Drinking Milk from the carton with a death grip. Again he is a fine artist. But he is like the Micheal Bay of Comic Book artists.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:02 a.m. CST
well said about Justice League, Douche.
by Poptard_JD
This was the best issue of the series so far. I enjoyed this second storyline 10 times more than the first story. Still, this isn't Jim's best work. It feels rushed, which is a shame, since I generally love what he does. It's understandable though, since Jim is doing MANY other things besides drawing at this point. I'm looking forward to them putting Reis on the title. I'm confused about the hoopla regarding Superman/Wonder Woman. It just makes too much sense NOT to happen, and I'm really excited to see this play out.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:03 a.m. CST
Also, this week's Avenging Spider-Man:
by Poptard_JD
Yup, I'm a grown man, and I got a little teary in my comic shop while reading it. Wells does a great job with the relationship between Aunt May and Peter and looking back on Pete's biggest regret. Excellent work, if you see it guys, pick it up.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:05 a.m. CST
I can't believe you're still reading Justice League
by Joenathan
Turrible. Just Turrible
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:09 a.m. CST
This is the funniest "review" of Dark Knight Rises EVER. Has anyone read this?
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:09 a.m. CST
The hoopla
by Joenathan
The hoopla about Superman and Wonder Woman is, to the non-reader world, Superman and Lois Lane is as normal and consistant as Batman and Robin. One just goes with the other. C-3PO and R2-D2. They've been "together" for decades, so the news that he's with Wonder Woman--while a much more natural pick--is a jarring one.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:09 a.m. CST
HA! @erichaislar....POINT!
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:21 a.m. CST
by Joenathan
and true
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:34 a.m. CST
Justice League
by fuxkinski
I couldn't believe how BORING the book was and stopped after issue 3. I never expected to enjoy the book artwise (I know Jim Lee is THE most popular artist doing work in the mainstream - but, like for any other 90s superstars - I don't get it...the artwork always looks like it was done for commission for somone to pin on a wall (or a fridge) - but what really stymied me was that Geoff Johns delivered scripts so utterly meaningless and soulless that reading was a chore - and I prefer to read for enjoyment, so - off the shopping list it went. About that S/WW Kiss - this is SO BIG, it even was in Germany bestselling newspaper BILD - (nothing I would be proud of as BILD is a mix made up of lies, hate, bad journalism and titties).
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:39 a.m. CST
Superman and Wonder Woman - Here's why it's a bad idea
by Joenathan
With Superman, the important part was that he was always putting the "man" before the "super". His parents raised him that way. It's what makes him relatable despite all the god-like things he can do. He was always "clark" even in costume, whenever he was KAl-el he seemed to be losing his way and he would need to be reminded of his connection with his adopted world. Lois is a part of that. She is the manifestation of his love for his adopted home. Through her, he has married in. Their relationship makes him human. Superfucking Wonder Woman in the clouds is a step toward losing that... but then, maybe that's the point of the story. Wonder Woman is a first, but ultimately wrong relationship, and a step toward learning a lesson about his humanity
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:45 a.m. CST
I Think The Kiss Has Been in the Works Since New 52 Launch
by optimous_douche
And here's why... Who the fuck is Lois Lane, says the deluge of new readers that came in post 52. Think about it, what's she done. She's just this chick at the office who is kind of a bitch to Clark. Anything we all know about her (because I assume anyone who comes here has been reading longer than a year), comes from pre-history. So while I once again find your words full of wisdom Joen (truly I do), you're carrying baggage to reach that conclusion.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:45 a.m. CST
No Scalped 60?
by v1cious
Come on man, seriously?
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:47 a.m. CST
V1cious - SCALPED
by optimous_douche
We discussed it briefly in yesterday's podcast. 1
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:47 a.m. CST
by Poptard_JD
I raved about it and the series as a whole on this week's PopTards Podcast, it was posted on AICN yesterday: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/57977
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:54 a.m. CST
Man, Liefeld was really spraying wide near the end
by Laserhead
Just basically insulting anybody who crossed his path. Whatta maroon. Ask him what would Jesus do?
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:56 a.m. CST
by Laserhead
I always loved how he thought showing himself inking while driving was proof of professionalism. His books don't sell. They really don't. And 25k followers on twitter isn't much for a public creator, and most of those followers sure don't buy his books.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:01 a.m. CST
Liefeld being an @$$ is not news...
by Tom
How the f-ck he got to write three comics is! The bigger issue to me is DC's editorial plan (seriously the though of Liefeld writing three books being part of a plan is insane in my book). Now I'm not going to say editor are always wrong, but DC is starting to have a long history of not knowing what they want and creators getting screwed because of it. Remember Dwayne McDuffie's Justice League? With the new 52 things appear to have gotten worst. Sure losing Liefeld is no big loss, but losing guys like George Perez is. Whatever DC's big plan is, I hope it's worth it. Right now for me, a long time reader- not so much. For the most part their best books are by creators who appear to be allowed to do what they want- the so called architects of the New 52. The one comment from Liefeld that was most telling to me, was how he mentioned an editor complained to him about the indy talent DC was starting to use, and how they couldn't handle editorial changes. And Liefeld shot back, no the problem is you. When have you ever heard Liefeld defend anyone, aside from himself?
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:02 a.m. CST
Love that Cracked review of DKR
by Laserhead
The entire thing is totally quotable and SPOT ON. DKR was a bloated, even more nonsensical version of Rocky 3.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:03 a.m. CST
Leifeld has at least provided us with entertainment outside his comic books even when people could find none within...
by Greg Nielsen
That is called selfless dedication. I'm more worried he's about to screw up the Extreme relaunch. Between Glory and Prophet, he had the best relaunch of the year. Oh and he had a new Alan Moore book too. He's got the skills necessary to shoot himself in the face in amazing ways.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:04 a.m. CST
by CuervoJones
Scott Snyder is a damn good writer. Liefeld is the Michael Bay of comics.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:05 a.m. CST
Poor Nolan...Cronenberg makes fun of him once and all of a sudden we all point out his flaws...
by Greg Nielsen
Seriously, I almost want to like him now that everyone has come around to my side. It's depressing the level of group think. Oh and Cronenberg calling anything immature is a joke. The man has made a career of shock value. But yeah that Cracked review was hilarious
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:32 a.m. CST
I will say in Liefeld's defense, as someone who does creative contract work and has run into some problem "editors", it's entirely possible that he might be truly frustrated and driven nuts by them
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:38 a.m. CST
yorgo; selfless dedication?
by Autodidact
More like senseless defecation amirite
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:42 a.m. CST
yorgo: what is "your side"? I'm confused. Nolan is a great director, there are just some issues storywise with DKR
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:43 a.m. CST
of course he's "truly frustrated"!! haha I don't think that's the problem here
by Poptard_JD
It's no secret that people are having problems with DC Editorial, it's how he chose to go about addressing it that I think is the problem.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:49 a.m. CST
I Deal With Editors All Day
by optimous_douche
And not once have I publicly bashed them. Privately no doubt, but JD is right. It's not the frustration, it's the handling.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:51 a.m. CST
I'm not really defending him, just saying I would agree with others who say DC editorial might have their heads up their asses
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:52 a.m. CST
Uh, I said DKR was awful the day it opened
by Laserhead
It's just a bad, bad movie. Has nothing to do with Cronenburg or any backlash against Nolan. I never thought Nolan was any kind of genius anyway. Good filmmaker, sure, but some untouchable apostle of art, he ain't.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:56 a.m. CST
I deal with studio execs and major publishing editors
by Laserhead
And apparently that's all a lot easier and more amiable than, uh, working on comics. The real point, however fucked DC's editorial is, is that BEING ROB LIEFELD is a problem, because of the way Rob Liefeld views himself, others, and the state of his 'art.' Someone who can't come to any kind of semi-authentic relationship to reality is going to have major trouble no matter where they go or what they do.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10:58 a.m. CST
In the Cracked review, I keep hearing Bane's voice as Sylvester the Cat
by Laserhead
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:01 a.m. CST
I actually have really disliked Nolan for a really long time...
by Greg Nielsen
I think his movies are silly and childish. Inception is a movie about suicide but to avoid constant suicide imagery he sets up rules to make an action movie. He then sets up rules to minimize dream imagery too. It's cause he isn't very imaginative. He drives me up a wall with all his casting choices. It's like no one is going to bad mouth you cause you have that cast cause it'd be too unpopular. I mean honestly...when has DiCaprio ever really been a good actor? When was Liam Neeson ever really a believable ninja with a whispy beard? I can appreciate that other people get more out of it than me. I just don't like watching massive group think shifts. Honestly...Dark Knight Rises isn't really that different from Dark Knight. It's just missing Heath Ledger who decided not to listen to Nolan and play the part the way he wanted.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:02 a.m. CST
by Joenathan
Yes, it's Pre-new 52 baggage, but that is why there is a hoopla. It's an ingrained relationship in the world's psyche. Now, that's not to say that I think they HAVE TO do it going forward with the New 52, however, cutting Supes off from her doesn't help to make an already pretty unrelatable character MORE relatable.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:05 a.m. CST
Don't Disagree Joen
by optimous_douche
And you're right about the relationship being ingrained, but at the end of the day it's all PR spin. Being a PR guy is like Neo living in the Matrix, you see the code way too easily.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:06 a.m. CST
Btw...on a less me being a pretensious butthole moment...Phantom Lady and Doll Man is out today!!!!
by Greg Nielsen
I can't wait. I know it probably won't be so great but The Freedom Fighters get me every time. They're so lame they are awesome. Not sure how I feel about a covered up Phantom Lady...she's like Cloak from Cloak and Dagger combined with Bettie Page...but I'm willing to give it a chance.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:07 a.m. CST
I think Leifeld is coincidence
by Joenathan
I think he's flaming out at DC because he's a douche, but it just so happens that he's flaming out at the same time others are ditching too and those others seem to be ditching because of a huge behind the scenes problem. I'll be interested to see what happens with DC in the near future. I mean, shit, even Judd Winnick is leaving and as we all saw on Real World San Franciso he's a total nice guy who is sometimes a passive aggressive weiner, so it's not like he could be that tough to work with, plus he's been DC loyal for awhile now.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:09 a.m. CST
Oh yeah
by Joenathan
It is certainly the right target, if you're looking for splash. Three huge names. A big change. An easily marketed new thing. I can see why they would, but I think it's also a hallmark of the bad story ideas coming out of DC right now, no long term thought.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:14 a.m. CST
Winnick is rumored to have passed on writing Green Arrow again...
by Greg Nielsen
I don't blame him after the stupid JLA announcement.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:15 a.m. CST
Perhaps The Departures Are Merely Saving Face
by optimous_douche
I've seen it a million times in corporate America. Someone is sucking monkey balls at their job, but they are in a high level position or prominently known in the company. So, instead of simply shit canning the person, they are brought into a quiet room, told they suck monkey balls, and the company is gracious enough to let them step down instead of booting them. All the guys that have left - all of their books sold for shit. Coincidence?
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:16 a.m. CST
BTW the new Justice League America team is the dumbest team I've seen so far...
by Greg Nielsen
I seriously can't fathom why this is here. The team makes no sense. It's stupid. Katana instead of Black Canary? No Captain Atom? I approve of Vibe from a complete and total absurdest point but that's it.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:19 a.m. CST
Optimous just won most likely on the saving face bit...
by Greg Nielsen
Quite proving you're more mature than us you Douche!
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:21 a.m. CST
Just read Phantom Lady...it was...ok
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:26 a.m. CST
Lyzard was right...JL8 is AWESOME!! Anyone else go read that strip?
by Poptard_JD
I immediately clicked over and read the strips from the beginning...this strip is soSOSOSoso Good!
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:27 a.m. CST
Lyz and I will be doing an interview with the creator, so heads up
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:28 a.m. CST
who the hell is Vibe?
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:34 a.m. CST
Vibe is the guy crouching behind Catwoman in the promo pic on the far left of Martian Manhunter...
by Greg Nielsen
He's got a full on Generation X outfit! It's so bad it's amazing. I hope they set the whole thing in Detroit.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:41 a.m. CST
No, I mean...i SEE Vibe. But I've never heard of him before
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:45 a.m. CST
This is such the problem with peoples attitudes today, and kids are getting worse.
by Taragor
I understand that in general we are all frustrated as a society. Big corporations...the "man keeping us down"...but we are such petty entitled little cunts these days. We don't want to conform, or follow the rules, or work within the context of professionalism. Twitter and FB have made us deities in our own minds, and thus we feel free to take that power and lament others. I looooved seeing the Olympic idiots get throw from their teams for their rants on FB and Twitter. Here is the deal in life...you have freedom of speech...we have the freedom to listen...or not. And you should NEVER think that your right to say it doesn't have consequences....tell that to the Dixie Chicks after their rant about Bush..."oh poor us, no one wants to buy our records. We're not popular anymore. Boo hoo we just said what we felt". Yes you did, and the country and your "fans" responded as such. Tough lesson. Dipshits. Ok ok, back to indoctrinating the youth.... I try to get this idea through their head all.day.long.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:50 a.m. CST
by NightArrows
And as for Liefeld, ugh, just ugh. He always seems to address the smallest of the criticisms against him. The whole feet issue is passé and rather tiny (get it?) compared to the artistic Black Hole he creates with every stroke of his pencil. And the video of him "inking while driving" is just fucking insane.
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:55 a.m. CST
by NightArrows
Name one movie that you actually liked. I don't recall much positivity from you regarding most topics...
Aug. 29, 2012, 11:59 a.m. CST
He kinda looks coked out in the driving while inking video
by Autodidact
That would explain things even further.
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:09 p.m. CST
Stop Liefeld TODAY - Share this MEME
by optimous_douche
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:32 p.m. CST
Do we really want to stop Liefeld though?
by Greg Nielsen
Who will always be that one step below the crappy creator we enjoy? Who will come up with ideas that become awesome once he stops writing them and everyone forgets that he came up with them? Who will pick random fights with random people? Who will put exclamation points at the end of everything? Who will look like Bob's Big Boy on crack while wearing Levi's jeans?
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:37 p.m. CST
Here's the thing about Liefield that none of you seem to be getting, which is VERY frustrating.
by Jaka
Why?! <p> Why do you care? <p> Why are you wasting time writing and reading about him? <p> Why did you give two shits about his "new books" or his "opinions"? <p> Why are you even THINKING about the guy in ANY WAY? <p> I ask all this because, from what I've gathered in my THIRTY YEARS of comic book reading, as well as my many years of reading this @$$hole columns, NOBODY likes the guy! Everybody knows the part he played in the crash. Everybody already had an opinion on his shit "art". I just don't get it. WHY are so many of you putting so much energy into this guy?
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:39 p.m. CST
What I DO wonder, is...
by Jaka
What were the people who hired him thinking?! Did they OWE him something? Did he have something on them that they didn't want going public? Did they WANT to destroy their OWN relaunch and re-branding? Because he's the same guy he's always been. Nothing he does or says should come as a surprise to ANYONE.
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:44 p.m. CST
Fables is the bomb, yo!
by Jaka
No, seriously. The consistently high level of quality on that book is approaching a longevity record. Very few books go over 100 issues without driving through a serious valley of mediocrity, if not just completely driving off the road into a ditch. This book rides high on decade long plateau of "damn! that was great!" The 70 or so spin-off issues are damn fine as well. Making it almost 200 issues of pure quality.
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:48 p.m. CST
When you look at Liefeld's track record it's spotty but has some bright spots...
by Greg Nielsen
Man came up with Cable and Deadpool. He brought Alan Moore back to comics which gave us the Supreme run and sowed the seeds for ABC. His new relaunch was going pretty well until he started to mess with it. I'm not saying the guy is gold but Cable and Deadpool make a ton of money. Alan Moore's Supreme and ABC work are considered pretty impressive. The Extreme Relaunch in my opinion was pretty great as long as his concepts were being handled by other people. It's still not enough to get me past a life time of suck. Bob Harras and Jim Lee and Geoff Johns felt differently.
Aug. 29, 2012, 12:52 p.m. CST
by Tom
I agree with you about Liefeld, but the fact that DC actually hired the guy to write three books at one time(!?) That makes it hard to ignore him- again I blame the DC editors :p
Aug. 29, 2012, 1:08 p.m. CST
by Joenathan
Maybe it's coincidence, but honestly, besides Johns and Morrison, who did they hire for this thing that had an amazing track record to begin with? "I can't believe Leifeld didn't sell a ton of quality books! Shocking? What a change from the norm!"
Aug. 29, 2012, 1:54 p.m. CST
Read JL 12 AND THEN READ JLI Annual 1
by BlueLando
DC has a plan here that involves Supes/WW. It's more than a mere romance!
Aug. 29, 2012, 2:44 p.m. CST
by Laserhead
You must be thinking of someone else, guy. I wouldn't know where to begin to 'name a movie I liked'; which is a bit like naming a day I enjoyed from my entire life. Most recent movie-at-the-cinema I liked a lot was 'Killer Joe'. For the purposes of this conversation, I'll say I loved 'The Dark Knight' and liked 'Batman Begins' quite a bit. And I've made the point before that I'm very glad this trilogy exists, if for no other reason than to wash the Schumacher out of everybody's mouth, but Dark Knight Rises is not in any way a good film, either by 'superhero movie' standards or plain old solid adult entertainment standards.
Aug. 29, 2012, 2:46 p.m. CST
We need to keep Liefeld around as a cautionary tale
by Laserhead
He'll be the objective correlative to comics' collective idea of "The Bottom." People like Chuck Austen and JT Krul will say, 'Hey, at least I'm not Liefeld.'
Aug. 29, 2012, 2:57 p.m. CST
Chuck Austen cannot say I'm not Liefeld...
by Greg Nielsen
Seriously...he's one of the few people that makes my blood boil with comic book geek rage. I didn't even buy those stupid books of his. I read them through a friend and almost burned his copies to the ground!
Aug. 29, 2012, 3:03 p.m. CST
True. I took it too far with Chuck Austen.
by Laserhead
Aug. 29, 2012, 3:10 p.m. CST
Liefeld is above Chuck Austen in that Liefeld at least came up with concepts that don't make me want to punch myself in the face...
by Greg Nielsen
X-Force dumb but fun Prophet dumb but awesome under Brandon Graham Glory dumb but amazing under Joe Keatinge and Ross Campbell Bloodstrike dumb but fun under Tim Seeley Youngblood asinine but fun under Alan Moore Deadpool idiotic but fun under Rick Remender Name one thing Chuck Austen ever did that didn't continue to suck long after he left. Everything that man did was stupid. It was so bad under him that I think he went back to porn comics.
Aug. 29, 2012, 3:19 p.m. CST
Chuck Austen probably sucks at porn too...
by Greg Nielsen
I refuse to find out though
Aug. 29, 2012, 3:37 p.m. CST
I feel sorry for liefield...
by Norman Colson
This guys art was amazing. I remember back in high school when image was first formed, him, mcfarlane, jim lee... wow. it was impressive. This man has a gift, but he is eccentric, selfish and spoiled and has no idea what it means to be blessed. No one said dealing with the outside world and editors was easy. you suck it up and deal with it. Could have been head of pixar, if he played his cards right. or had his own film studio by now if he just played the game. I mean look at jim lee, head of DC, mcfarlane is a millionaire, does figure scultping. I mean and liefield, goddamn it...
Aug. 29, 2012, 3:59 p.m. CST
Justice League #12- just more crap
by Tom
Seriously, I'm done with this title. I can't believe how idiotic and uninspiring it was. 1st- Graves one of the lamest villains ever, his villain's journey makes about as much sense as the nut job who shot-up the movie theater: There's no logic to identify with. 2nd- The Justice League actually questioned their acts of saving Grave's family. Seriously? So if I save a guy from drowning, and he dies from drinking something in the water it's my fault?! Are these moral questions for 4 year olds? 3rd- Wonder Woman and Superman k-i-ss-i-n-g, no build up to this at all (John Byrne, when he did it, spent over a year building up to it, so it made sense when it happened). And I assume WW is just playing Superman, since she wants to distance herself from Steve Trevor. 4th- The two teaser pages, none of that looks interesting to me. It all looks like scenes from a bad movie trailer. And one minor thing that continues to annoy me, Wonder Woman's sword- seriously why the fu-k does she have that thing? Even when she was totally ticked off at Graves for hurting Steve, she still just punched him in the face (in a giant splash). Can that sword doing anything better (aside from cutting cheese) better than her fist? Answer- no- so why does she have it!? At least a handgun could give her a ranged attack. Finally there is no building block for a brighter future for the League with those teaser images. Apparently, DC wanted a Justice League of illogical miscreants, well they got it. I can't believe I was actually looking forward to this title a year ago. I don't know when I'll ever buy a Justice League again- but I do know DC doesn't care because the books a hit.
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:02 p.m. CST
by Norman Colson
Why does that sound familiar?
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:06 p.m. CST
Geoff Johns and Jim Lee's problem is that they want to work at Marvel...
by Greg Nielsen
So now they turn everything into Marvel style d-bags being d-bags.
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:11 p.m. CST
I turned in my work on time
by Laserhead
Is like saying "I showed up." Hung by his own twit-rope, the same way Lfeld thinks inking while driving is a sign of professionalism, rather than a display of contempt for the task (two tasks, actually). The dude seems to have no relationship to an even halfway objective reality.
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:12 p.m. CST
I forgot to be worried about 'Prophet'. Now I am.
by Laserhead
I guess I'll always wonder where Brandon Graham would've taken it...
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:27 p.m. CST
The problem with JL..
by xsikal
...has not been the villains, although I understand why you feel that way. The problem has been that Johns writes the members as immature, childish assholes. Sure, maybe better villains would give the JL a better chance to come off as heroic by contrast, but the JL are all such unrelenting dicks in this iteration that I'm not sure it would really help. Also, I love Jim Lee, but this series has not been his best work. This issue in particular came off as rushed to me, but that's felt like an ongoing problem since #2.
Aug. 29, 2012, 4:52 p.m. CST
I personally pay attention to Liefeld because he's unique in so many ways. He's like a walking lesson: "look kids, this is what happens when you're blessed with a modicum of talent and never try to develop it for an entire career!"
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 5:30 p.m. CST
Liefeld, Austen, Superman, Wonder Woman
by Homer Sexual
Liefeld,,, well I can say I had the first New Mutants he drew and I sold it for some decent cash. His art was interesting for the briefest of times... Then Pink posted a link to the most hilarious review of Hawk and Dove, with the villain's costume honestly changing dramatically from panel to panel. Creating Cable is like creating a biological weapon. Worst. Character. Ever. Deadpool doesn't even make up for it. Austen did a few really good stories in Exiles. He did King Hyperion and I looove that story. Superman and Wonder Woman, eh... as Ive said I hope it doesn't mess up WW's regular book, because it's a fave, but I think it will. And I think it's a good point that "our" Superman would never date WW. Alternate reality Supermen do it all the time, but those guys are evil half the time. It is true that having him date WW, while she could take it, is against the character... not that I personally care all that much. And did I see that Catwoman is going to be in JLA? That is going to far. But it is very Marvel, as in Sabretooth once became a hero and Venom as well. Popular villain? Well, then, make him a hero. BOOOOO!!! I like Catwoman straddling the fence, and JLA isn't exactly a grey area. I do like teams full of "second-tier" characters, though. It always makes more sense that they would be on a team. I am one of those geeks that never really likes Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman on a team because it seems out of character. Maybe that's one reason I tend to like the X books, only one of them has his own book... ok five zillion books, but he's the exception. All of JL except one has his/her own book already.
Aug. 29, 2012, 5:31 p.m. CST
Oh, and I don't mind Liefeld badmouthing editorial
by Homer Sexual
Why shouldn't he? He is actually able to do so, and I know if I had financial independence I would do what I wanted and not bow to editorial mandate.
Aug. 29, 2012, 6:20 p.m. CST
^ Can you post that link to the Hawk & Dove review? BTW I have the original Hawk & Dove miniseries from the 80s, Liefeld's first professional work I think.
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 6:38 p.m. CST
by 3774
http://tinyurl.com/7bcbe7o I drew attention to the driving video a while back also because it baffles me how successful he's become. Just a total tool, right up there with Lee, but without the professional sheen.
Aug. 29, 2012, 6:41 p.m. CST
Nevermind I found it.
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 6:43 p.m. CST
..Amazing. His art changed slightly between the 1987 Hawk & Dove and Youngblood #1. Since then it has not changed, although he appears to have actually gotten lazier!
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 7:13 p.m. CST
I've always been a Geoff Darrow, Brian Bolland, Dave Gibbons, Art Adams guy.
by Autodidact
I like a LOT of precise detail in the art. The more, the better.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:20 p.m. CST
Or 1000 other guys, but it's obvious when somebody is being lazy, or just isn't very good
by Jaka
Because there's a huge variation in style and quality amongst the precise detail guys, the reality and photo-realism guys, the thick line guys, the anime influenced guys, the cartoon influenced guys, the traditional guys, the "current" guys, the old school guys, the experimental guys, the computer assisted guys, etc. etc. etc. Whatever schools of comic book art you like, or even tolerate (because sometimes that's what we do for a good story), WITHIN each of those categories there is still variation in style and quality. <p> Spend even a short amount of time reading comic books and it's pretty easy to differentiate good from bad, or even average. Sure, sometimes there's just somebody you like because their art frosts your pickle. But deep in your geek heart you probably know that they aren't all that (if they were, you wouldn't constantly be defending them). What I don't understand is how some of these guys KEEP. GETTING. WORK. More, how does someone like Liefeld keep getting high profile jobs with OTHER COMPANIES? I mean, it's not like the guy is screwing up his own books and his own company. No, he's already done that. Now he's doing it to freakin' DC. *sigh* Anyway, there I go spending time and energy on that douchenozzle. Blech.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:22 p.m. CST
Can I ask what the hell was the point of your first paragraph there Jaka?
by Autodidact
ZZzz so boring and pointless.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:23 p.m. CST
Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld
by Sean
Attempting to have this make sense. Jim Lee is bar none, my favourite comic artist ever and my biggest inspiration in illustration. I would normally collect ANYTHING done by the guy and have done for years. Normally too thankfully, i would get a cool story to come with the art so, while i was getting great visuals, it wouldn't be a hollow experience. Though i like Superman and love Batman, the best i can do is scan over Justice League in the newsstands. Writing looks bland and scary as it is to say...for the first time ever, Jim isn't bringing his best work. Maybe the poster earlier was right...it is rushed? Half hearted? The whole product seems...bleh. Given a number of years ago before going to DC, Jim had a period of NO drawing because he had to run the company but since then he's done Hush and all sorts of great work. I hope he doesn't over commit himself and the art suffers because i can't believe i'm finally having a criticism against a hero. It is strange how you can be so militant to defend the things you love, including things of nostalgia against other people's criticisms and how that changes as you grow up and because more subjective. You look back on things from childhood, like the He-Man cartoon and Knight Rider...which geeks like us adored. Nowadays we look back more with the thought of "awesome concept but poor execution". I was one of those guys that would block my ears and argue when someone rubbished The Phantom Menace because...its Star Wars, that which is impervious to flaws and negativity! But you grow older as an appreciator of art (in its many mediums) and just because you discover flaws in Phantom Menace, (for example) you can man up about those but still enjoy the many other things it does right and not let the memory and experience be tainted. So, its a milestone, Jim Lee has, after 20+ years of brilliance, churned out something not all that impressive. It's disappointing...but it isn't like my childhood has been raped. As for Liefeld...i liked his work during the genesis of Image because i also admired his peers, Lee, McFarlane, Silvestri, etc. I for one, (despite the legacy of his look) like Cable and love Deadpool. Credit to him for that. But, i also began to wake up and notice all of the errors in Liefeld's style, the bad anatomy, the repetition, copying other artists and infantile nature of his stories and characters. I've been anti-Liefeld for a long while now and also not to defend him and what i feel is unprofessional conduct on Twitter...if you are getting the short straw, finding yourself compromised, regardless of what industry you are in...it does take courage and heart to want for something better and to look for an exit, or appreciate the exit if even it has been given to you. A lot of us would give our left nutsack to be working in comics as opposed to most 9-5 jobs that people do. No doubt. But, and i hate to say it...the comics industry isn't going to be free of its own politics and issues. It isn't a slap in the face to those of us that would love to be earning a great income from being creative...if it is no longer comfortable or right for you to be there. If it isn't right for you, it isn't right for you. I recently quit my job, which was unconventional and in an industry i deeply love...martial arts. I like love the martial arts and the organisation i am in. But things were not right within it and it was mentally killing me. I got out 6 weeks ago. Some may, on the surface think i was nuts to walk away from something cooler or stimulating than a 9-5er. But, it was my time to leave. Ironically, part of why i left was because my other equal passions in art were getting neglected and i wanted to rededicate my focus into illustration and film making...so i can break into comics and directing. The same realms that Liefeld is bitching about! While we don't know ALL the details involved...yes, throw scorn on Liefeld for people unprofessional but don't rubbish on or guilt someone into feeling bad if they have pride and standards and beliefs about what is right for them and walking away from an opportunity that would usually been seen by us as a blessing and a gift. His void just creates a new opportunity for one of us guys here that may think we can do better anyway. I'm not trying to romanticise the notion of the artist that says "fuck you" to 'the man'. Because we all want to make ends meet and live well. Living off noodles is NOT ideal whatsoever. BUT...artistic integrity (ironic that integrity is being used here with Liefeld) is important for creative people. If you and your work become compromised, if you are being supressed or mistreated...anywhere...it eats and you, it kills you in some way, slowly. It, is no way to live. Sometimes tough choices need to be made and new directions (however unpredictable and murky) taken.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:26 p.m. CST
autodidact, no, you can't
by Jaka
You can pull your head out, put down the video game controller and read it again. Maybe then it will make sense. If not, please go bang your head against the wall into you learn how to have an intelligent, respectful conversation.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:28 p.m. CST
Apologies on some spelling errors but i hope i made sense and got my points across.
by Sean
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:28 p.m. CST
Further, don't act like you're special because you're part of a column that a couple hundred people (tops!) might look at
by Jaka
I've forgotten more about comic books than you'll ever know. Does it make you feel big and powerful to be able to insult people here in anonymity? Because from where I'm sitting it just makes you look like one of a million other tired ass internet bullies.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:30 p.m. CST
Good luck, Taylor
by Jaka
I'm sure you're about to get insulted for having the audacity to write something long than two sentences. Because actually having to read, process and THINK about anything is beyond most of the people in these talkbacks.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:31 p.m. CST
You've forgotten more than I will ever know? Are you sure about that? I seriously doubt it. Do you have any more examples of comic book genres to list? Is that what you were doing, some kind of memory exercise?
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:34 p.m. CST
This is an anonymous forum. People are going to be rude here. If I wanted to have a civil conversation bounded by the constraints of a real identity, I would do so.
by Autodidact
Now take a Midol for fuck's sake and try to have a point when you make a comment.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:35 p.m. CST
.. do so elsewhere, I should say.
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:37 p.m. CST
Supes and WW
by Hedgehog000
I kinda of like it because it's someone other than Lois Lane and it's logical. I do think a Supes/WW relationship will have long term relatability problems. So I think I would have liked it if Supes hooked up with some other superheroine more. How about Vixen - that would set the world aflutter? Or maybe Black Canary so we could have some angry Green Arrow. The best thing I think Bendis ever did on USM was having Peter Parker get together with Kitty Pryde. Normally, I don't think much of Bendis' plotting but that was an inspired idea. The best thing that could come out of this Spidermen series is if when 616 Peter Parker get home, he calls up Kitty and asks her out.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:37 p.m. CST
Jaka don't try to act like your comment was on the same level as Taylor Kitsch's Anal Leprosy's comment.
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:37 p.m. CST
My point was clear you mannerless twit
by Jaka
You don't impress me and you don't scare me. You're just a dick for the sake of being a dick. Instead of actually trying to process what I said and formulate an opinion, you toss off insults and pat yourself on the back, "Haha! That was a good one! That'll show 'em!" Nah, it won't. The only thing it shows anybody is that you have a brain but you're too lazy to use it for anything other than selfish, hateful bullshit. Talk all the shit you want about me, it rolls right off, because trolls like you don't matter. You never have and you never will.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:38 p.m. CST
Oh, it's an anonymous forum, that means I supposed to be rude. Derrrr,
by Jaka
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:40 p.m. CST
autodidact, even if I knew what the hell your last comment was referencing, I wouldn't care
by Jaka
Your comments mean nothing. You're powerless. Think otherwise? Watch as I never respond to you again, for as long as were both here. Later.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:41 p.m. CST
No, it wasn't. Why don't you calm down and take a deep breath?
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:42 p.m. CST
I'm not trying to impress you or scare you. Don't be scared okay?
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:44 p.m. CST
It just seemed to me like you felt it necessary to point out that there is variety in art styles. That's just about the most obvious thing that doesn't need pointing out
by Autodidact
and then you ATTACK and BERATE me for making a sincere inquiry into the meaning and intent of your communication. NOW who's the bully!?!?!?
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:44 p.m. CST
by Hedgehog000
I don't have a dog in this fight to be honest. I never really liked the guy's work back in the Image days and haven't followed him since. I'm kind of curious though why people who don't like him are so passionate about him rather than just ignoring him like so many other artists we don't like. I also wonder if a Bendis or a Geoff Johns stormed out of Marvel or DC respectively and put out the exact same rant, whether they would be getting a similar reaction? Or is it just something about this particular person that sets everyone off?
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:45 p.m. CST
Oh no I feel so powerless, when just a moment ago I had been surging with the power of some hamster losing his shit over a comment I took six seconds to toss over my shoulder waiting for BF3 to change levels
by Autodidact
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:57 p.m. CST
It's because he's so successful. Let me think up a metaphor within the comment box
by Autodidact
Imagine if in the 1988 Olympics some young kid had gotten up on the parallell bars and while he was actually flipping around and stuff, there was runny diarrhea shit spraying out the sides of his shorts and flinging off of his toes, accelerated into the crowd by the centrifugal forces he was generating. He wins no medals but gains massive notoriety and becomes a millionaire through endorsements and licensing of his buttplug designs. Flash forward to 2012 and this motherfucker is still getting into the Olympics every four years, spraying people with the diarrhea from his incontinence, losing badly, and coming out richer for it. Then imagine you've been doing your own ring exercises since you were ten years old, and you haven't flung or sprayed any diarrhea on anybody since like the third time. And it's more than twenty years later. You'd be totally fascinated by this guy's success and lack of self-awareness.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:59 p.m. CST
I liked King Hyperion too
by Hedgehog000
Evil Supeman, yeah. Too bad once they brought him to 616 universe they turned him into a pussy.
Aug. 29, 2012, 9:59 p.m. CST
hedgehog000, to be honest, they would probably be taken seriously
by Jaka
Instead of getting beaten about the head and shoulders like Liefeld. The point is, he's earned this ranker. He's earned it and he wears it like a badge of honor. I think that's part of why people are so passionate about their dislike for the guy. He seems to know what he's done wrong and what people dislike about him (as a person AND an artist), but he keeps doing it anyway, rubbing it in people's faces every chance he gets. <p> I totally agree with the stance that we should be ignoring him as much as possible. I said as much earlier and I'm still getting caught up thinking about it (twenty years later, because I hated the shit he did back in the 90s, as an artist AND a "businessman"). It's pretty clear that ignoring him won't make him go away. Particularly in the age of the internet when the guys fucking TWEETS are cause for the entire comic book world to get their panties in a bunch.
Aug. 29, 2012, 10 p.m. CST
by Jaka
Stoopud speling.
Aug. 30, 2012, 12:48 a.m. CST
Let me just say one thing, and then include a metaphor within the comment box
by Jaka
No, I do not believe I've forgotten more about comic books than ANYBODY else. That was a dumb thing to write and as soon as I hit the 'Post' button I was like, 'ugh'. But here's the thing... <p> Sometimes there's a fly buzzing around, totally annoying you. You get really tired of the fly, because it's acting like all flies act. Landing, puking, landing, puking. Generally being a nuisance. So you swat at the fly but it doesn't leave. Landing, puking. Then, out of frustration, even though you know you're going to look like an idiot to the other people in the room, you let out a series of strange noises and swing wildly at the pest. <p> Yeah... anyway...
Aug. 30, 2012, 7:14 a.m. CST
You left forgetting to take your Midol out of that metaphor
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 7:33 a.m. CST
Taylor, good luck. Just remember one thing
by Autodidact
Nobody breaks into directing without directing a movie first. If you want to be a director, direct a movie.
Aug. 30, 2012, 8:37 a.m. CST
Austen didn't come up with King Hyperion...
by Greg Nielsen
He started out as a villain to fight the Avengers and then later Mark Gruenwald made the awesome Squadron Supreme series where it turns out they were all brain washed but generally cool dudes and then they did Watchmen and The Authority before Ellis, Moore, and Miller even had an inkling about going out there and making every superhero into a dick. Oh and on top of it, Gruenwald painted them all as good people who just made mistakes, didn't plan all the way through, or made questionable decisions in attempts to make the world better. So, they were even dicks like Ellis, Moore and Miller would make every superhero out to be. So, Gruenwald, he was a real artist who worked within the medium and even loved it which is more than can be said of the current group of guys that just say nerd power to get us to buy their crap while they sit back and wait for TV and movie deals. All that to say Chuck Austen doing Hyperion = cheapening of the source material.
Aug. 30, 2012, 8:37 a.m. CST
Also GO BEFORE WATCHMEN!!!
by Greg Nielsen
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:14 a.m. CST
^ Marketing victim
by Autodidact
Like there aren't better things to work on. Let's just keep revisiting the same material over and over.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:14 a.m. CST
Both metaphors made me laugh out loud! Very well done, fellas. (the metaphors, not the fighting, natch)
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:16 a.m. CST
Anytime I get into it with someone in the talkbacks, I'm filled with shame.
by Poptard_JD
I try so hard not to do it, but then I get all wrapped up in it for a second and spend the rest of my day feeling like I got caught masturbating by the genuine friends I have on this board!
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:18 a.m. CST
King Hyperion is a story not a character
by Homer Sexual
I actually loved Squadrom Supreme and I don't think most of those characters were dicks. Oh and btw it also dos the Superman and WW romance decades ago. But King Hyperion is an Exiles story Austen wrote and it was really good. He led an evil group that included his wan, evil Ms Marvel. Illyana was an Exile who betrayed her team to hook up with Hyperion and them he killed her
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:24 a.m. CST
I bet I've forgotten more about comics than lots of people who consider themselves "geeks" know.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:27 a.m. CST
@Homer: I will give this King Hyperion story a try even though it is Chuck Austen...
by Greg Nielsen
I'm doing it for you Homer... I hope this doesn't turn into one of those times where I really regret doing something for a stranger on the internet.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:27 a.m. CST
revisiting the same material over and over again
by Laserhead
That's what superhero comics do. 'Material' is a little too broad a word anyway; 'character' is better. And as far as I know this is the first time anyone has revisited the airless, flat world of Watchmen (where the world's smartest man enacts the world's dumbest plan, and every character is a cliche of an 80s TV movie). Points to Yorgo for citing Gruenwald and Squadron Supreme. I concur. Ellis is really the guy who can't seem to write characters that aren't dicks. Every one of his heroes is the smarmiest, most misanthropic ass, who nevertheless just cares so damn much he has to save people in his own hard-ass, misanthropic way. I can't remember the last time I paid for an Ellis book. Oh yea-- Planetary.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:28 a.m. CST
I feel shame in general about how much time I waste on AICN talking about this shit. Honestly, been coming to this site every day for more than 15 years. It's one of the most stable fixtures in my life.
by Autodidact
That is in many ways sad, and in some ways kind of awesome.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:28 a.m. CST
Not a marketting victim. I'm just tired of Alan Moore...
by Greg Nielsen
He hates comics and he hates comics fans. He was ashamed of writing comics and did everything in his power to demean them. Even his supposedly cheerful work is filled with everything vile for the sake of shock. I keep going back solely cause it's like a car wreck. I will refine my statement...I'm tried of the blind Alan Moore worship and his attitude. But yeah also his writing style.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:29 a.m. CST
by Laserhead
I know that feeling. And sometimes you're watching people you respect and enjoy on the board, teetering on the brink of a shitfit of a fight, thinking, '....C'mon, man... Don't do it... Don't...'
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:35 a.m. CST
Accidentally walking in on you is awkward, but not life-scarring, JD...
by 3774
...life-scarring is walking in on all of you guys standing around in a circle doing it, with a pile of money in the center. I have no idea what was going on, and don't want to know. It's either that, or an interesting debate. I never know what's going to be behind the door when I open it.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:37 a.m. CST
Yeah it is the first time and it should not have happened.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:38 a.m. CST
I hate comics fans too.
by Autodidact
You are the reason for BEFORE WATCHMEN after all.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:39 a.m. CST
But I don't worship Alan Moore (although I am a fan). I "worship" the singular material that is the 12 issue miniseries WATCHMEN. It's perfect, singular, and now it's been used and brought low and made common and about 80% of people I talk to about this c
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:43 a.m. CST
80% of people I talk to about this conflate my reasons for opposing BEFORE WATCHMEN.
by Autodidact
It's got nothing to do with Alan Moore worship. It's about there having been this one perfect thing that was self-contained and sort of sealed under a glass jar. Now a mob has kicked over the glass jar and gang-spunked all over the perfect and singular object and everyone seems pleased as punch about it.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:44 a.m. CST
Watchmen isn't PERFECT!!!...
by Greg Nielsen
Alan Moore helped make freaking D&D RPGs for the stupid thing. If anything this is just God's punishment of a man who has singularly abused so many people's creations that it's finally happening to him.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:44 a.m. CST
You should really be comic worshipping Squadron Supreme...
by Greg Nielsen
now there was a good book
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:46 a.m. CST
In less metaphorical terms they've taken ART and reduced it to COMMERCE
by Autodidact
And don't go "informing" me that the WATCHMEN series was a commercial product in the first place. I know that you cunts.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:53 a.m. CST
Laser: yeah...that's why almost every argument I have on here ends with me going...
by Poptard_JD
"you know what? you're right.", when I realize that the argument means absolutely nothing to my life, haha
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:56 a.m. CST
Which Squadron Supreme should I be worshipping..there have been a bunch, right?
by Poptard_JD
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:56 a.m. CST
I just felt like Auto needed to attack Before Watchmen again instead of geek knowledge...
by Greg Nielsen
Oh and as someone who learned a thing or two from Andy Warhol, Commerce is art!
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:57 a.m. CST
It is about Moore's voice though. Let's not get that part twisted. It's like someone has sung three amazing verses of a song that they wrote, and then someone hip-checks them off the stage and performs a fucking incompetent and unoriginal and amateurish i
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:58 a.m. CST
@JD: Only the Gruenwald Squadron Supreme cause the JMS one is filled with Alan Moore dickholes...
by Greg Nielsen
Seriously I don't know why that series got so much praise. I can sorta understand The Twelve but Supreme Power was everything that is wrong with comics. It's taking a good idea and infusing it with Liefeldisms and Alan Moore hate. Then again JMS is another one of those losers that only writes jerks.
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:58 a.m. CST
Yeah it's like hip-checking Michael Jackson off the stage after a standing ovation for THRILLER and Bobby Brown is like "Here's my fourth verse of thriller. Did you know that it's not zombies but crackheaads! And one of the crackheads sucked off JFK. I ca
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 9:58 a.m. CST
It is kinda funny thought to see someone get hip checked and then do something stupid...
by Greg Nielsen
Thankfully Before Watchmen isn't that bad.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:01 a.m. CST
WATCHMEN is like a delicous steak enjoyed by my generation of comic kids 25 years ago. Take a minute and guess how I'm going to describe BEFORE WATCHMEN inside the comment box!
by Autodidact
BEFORE WATCHMEN is the festering shit-log that my generation of comics kids, now grown up and "creating" their own comics, has shat out all over it's own face and the face of up-and-coming generations.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:02 a.m. CST
Nom nom nom catch those derivative little turds as they cascade
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:03 a.m. CST
Hell, derivative would be an improvement. How do you describe a bolus of feces that is not even pretending to have an original thought mashed inside?
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:06 a.m. CST
I've changed my mind...I should've let Auto rage on us instead...
by Greg Nielsen
Should've been a divider and not a uniter
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:12 a.m. CST
Is DR MANHATTAN any good though?
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:16 a.m. CST
Dr. Manhattan is tolerable...
by Greg Nielsen
Really good Adam Hughes drawings. Auto...you'd hate it. It messes around with the original plot more than any of the other books.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:24 a.m. CST
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:26 a.m. CST
Watchmen's far from any kind of perfection
by Laserhead
I most admire Gibbons' art, more than anything in it, nowadays. Flat characterization and insipid, 80s-soap-opera-style plotting, with a story that's about as logical as the Tea Party. Just the standard Alan Moore 80s cash-grab.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:38 a.m. CST
Dr. Manhattan
by optimous_douche
Or does it mess with his origin? Had a little conversation with JMS the other day J. MIchael Straczynski Thanks for the great rreview. It's off to a good start, and gets deeper into the philosophical tall grass with each issue. It was great fun to write. 18 hours ago · Like · 1 Robert T Patey III It shows and it was my pleasure. I want the people to thank me when their books are awful. :-) 17 hours ago · Like J. MIchael Straczynski Some folks are jumping all over the book yelling "He changed the future and we know he can't do that!" which shows they're not actually paying attention to what's being said in the book itself. Did he change things, or is that what it looks like from one perspective? It's far more subtle than it appears, doesn't in any way contradict what's established about his abilities, and all of the clues to solve it are right there in the first issue, if one is paying attention. 17 hours ago · Like Robert T Patey III There are times I fear the hive mind, and I know as a reviewer I'm a direct contributor to the learning malaise it produces via the Intertubes. I hope that my reviews are supplemental, that you take time to absorb the source and THEN head out to the cacophony highway to view other perspectives. Sadly the truth is that people either move too fast through the material so they can sound off on something they barely understand or they simply rely on the ultimate cliff notes of www. 17 hours ago · Edited · Like Robert T Patey III The complaint that truly concerns me is people expecting the moments of these books to be more epic than the source material. They can't get through their mind that WATCHMEN proper was the pinnacle of these characters' existence. BEFORE WATCHMEN is the inch wide mile deep moments before...they are quieter times than WATCHMEN. Now, quieter certainly doesn't mean quiet...it simply is not the most horrifying or heroic moments of their existence. And meant what I said in the review, you have given us the most perplexing prequel of all, it was very refreshing to not jump right into a linear narrative. 17 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1 J. MIchael Straczynski That's a very valid point.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:42 a.m. CST
Flat characterization? LOL
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:42 a.m. CST
Can you explain what in the fuck you mean by soap opera plot?
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:44 a.m. CST
@Optimous: Ok well yeah Dr. Manhattan might not have but there is the whole I changed the paper to Silk Spectre bit that wasn't in the original...
by Greg Nielsen
At least last time I read it wasn't in there. I don't dislike it. I personally enjoyed it. I meant tolerable for Auto. Although, I realize Auto tolerates nothing
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:45 a.m. CST
Watchmen did have enough rape to be a Soap Opera...
by Greg Nielsen
Oh and lots of mustache twirling.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:47 a.m. CST
by Laserhead
The middle-aged man who's lost his fire and can barely remember his all-star days, impotent and pudgy, in need of a mid-life reawakening. The sexy, headstrong young woman with arch mommy issues who finds out- shocker -her father is her worst enemy! Travis Bickle with red hair. The omnipotent superman in danger of losing touch with his humanity, if there's even any there to lose. The street vigilante who's a sadistic mysoginist and sociopath. And the smartest man in the world. Who, again, enacts the dumbest plan in the world. That shit was old hat in '85, and hacky at that. Take the Charlton characters and give each of them the "mature" personality of an American daytime soap opera character. Brilliant. One of the reasons for Watchmen's populism, why it has so many fans who don't normally read comic books, is because it's a litany of comforting, middle-of-the-road cliches.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:48 a.m. CST
I just explained what the fuck I meant
by Laserhead
See my list of characters. If you think that's not flat characterization, you must really love 80s comics and daytime TV.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:52 a.m. CST
I wish Watchmen was more like a Telenovella...
by Greg Nielsen
Are there any not hot women on Telenovellas? I can't stop watching Rosa Diamante and Corazon Valiente. They make me laugh and remember that there are wonderful things in the world.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:56 a.m. CST
You fail to prove or illustrate how the characterization is "flat". I also disagree that most of what you've listed had been done before or was old hat.
by Autodidact
Fail all around.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:57 a.m. CST
Ozymandias' plan actually worked. His goal was to keep the world from nuking itself.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:58 a.m. CST
Soap opera plotting
by Laserhead
Your daddy is really the man you hate! (Laurie) The most reasonable and overtly heroic man is actually the most diabolical! (Veidt) Just when I needed a mid-life pick-me-up, my old buddy from high school came by, which led to me getting reunited with that hot cheerleader from our school days! (Dan) How's this for a foolproof plan-- despite an infinity of potential alternatives, including convincing Manhattan to turn all thermonuclear fission material into daisies --I'm gonna try to convince the world that it's under attack by Cthulu. Surely this will unite the various nations, and no one will look too closely at the results. Definitely worth killing NYC. I just love the world so damn much (World's Smartest Man) Ohmygosh, are our actions the consequence of fate or free will? Is there a difference? Are we thirteen and stoned for the first time, so that this seems like profound philosophical conversation? Or is it the kind of pop-philosophy found in lowest-common-denominator entertainment? (Mars) That's all I say about that. Gobble the hairbag's balls all you want, but beyond age eighteen, the only thing I find impressive about Watchmen is Dave Gibbons' masterful draftsmanship.
Aug. 30, 2012, 10:59 a.m. CST
I know his plan worked. Because Alan Moore made it work.
by Laserhead
It's the dumbest goddamn plan ever conceived. See my above post.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11 a.m. CST
The characterization in WATCHMEN is flat compared to what? What imaginary comics were you reading in the 80s had characters so richly explored that they made Owl Man look "flat"?
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:01 a.m. CST
Laserhead I'm just gonna place you in the "dumbshit, ignore" column.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:01 a.m. CST
Sure. Fail. Hah.
by Laserhead
Have you ever seen a TV show made between 1970-1985? Ever read any books written before 1985? It had all been done, and done much better. The Twilight Zone had more depth to its characters. I did in fact demonstrate the flatness of the characters by showing how their entire personalities could be summed up in a cliched slug line. Look, swallow Moore's load, nobody's stopping you, it's just real fucking sad, that's all.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:03 a.m. CST
So you are stating that this is reflective of soap opera plotting?: "Ohmygosh, are our actions the consequence of fate or free will? Is there a difference?"
by Autodidact
Again, what soap operas are you watching? What a dumb argument to make.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:05 a.m. CST
First we're talking about comics, not TV shows. Second, you're saying things that are simply not true.
by Autodidact
Make all the broad, untrue assertions you want. I haven't heard you cite any examples of comics with better characterization or plotting from the same era.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:06 a.m. CST
I can hardly think of a single fictional character that can't be summed up that way. You've proved nothing except for your own logical incoherence.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:07 a.m. CST
If you think that was incoherent, then you don't know how to read
by Laserhead
Which explains your worship of Watchmen.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:08 a.m. CST
Yeah, that Comedian. What a simple and one-note flat character that is seen all the time in comics.
by Autodidact
You fucking clown.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:09 a.m. CST
I can't hear you with Moore's dick in your mouth
by Laserhead
Try to swallow, come up for air, then reframe your argument.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:09 a.m. CST
If it was a telenovella...Veidt would've dressed in drag and tried to hit someone with a car or shoot them...
by Greg Nielsen
Also, like Rorschach would probably be a hot lady. A cowboy hat would be in there somewhere. It'd be pretty cool.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:10 a.m. CST
Have I said anything about Alan Moore? Not in like thirty comments. Another strawman response.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:10 a.m. CST
@Laser: We all know you can hear Auto cause Moore's dick is tiny...
by Greg Nielsen
like his mind.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:12 a.m. CST
I didn't say "incoherent." I said you proved/illustrated nothing, cited no examples, and utterly failed to back up your false assertions. Don't try to act like you've said anything that would take thought to comprehend.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:15 a.m. CST
I'm still waiting for a single example from you of:
by Autodidact
A) Characters more vivid than the ones in WATCHMEN, in comics, from around the same era B) Plotting in comics that is more well-structured and masterfully delivered than WATCHMEN from around the same era and I care much less about C) Clear examples of any of the "tired, old hat" characters you describe appearing in comics before WATCHMEN. Be aware that your bullshit comes across as weak trolling and is not dazzling or impressive in the least.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:17 a.m. CST
Quote: "You've proved nothing except for your own logical incoherence."
by Laserhead
It's right there in the comment header. "Incoherence." If you think I've displayed logical incoherence, then you don't know what thinking is, or logical coherence, for that matter. Everything I cited was a bona-fide example, and I backed up every one of my true assertions with illustrative evidence taken from the work itself. Which is why you need peel your face out of Moore's ass and focus.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:18 a.m. CST
Dark Knight Returns and Squadron Supreme are from around the same time and put Watchmen to shame...
by Greg Nielsen
Watchmen had the best publicity and the British accents helped a ton. It's easy to have a unique perspective on a place you've never been too and are irrationally afraid of cause you're a dick. Besides Warren Ellis did Watchmen better with The Authority and even managed to reach the heights of Squadron Supreme. It's a shame his run came to an end.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:19 a.m. CST
I don't even think you know what a FLAT CHARACTER is. It's in the writing... not the description.
by Autodidact
"The most boring guy in the world" can be summed up in one line and would probably be a fascinating character. Did I just blow your little pea brain?
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:20 a.m. CST
Be aware that your opinions aren't definitive
by Laserhead
and that your sanctimony and hysterionics come off as fapper foot-stomping between fistfuls of cheetoes.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:20 a.m. CST
Here's a little exercise for you, Laserhead. Try to take more than a few sentences to describe Macbeth. Or Walter White.
by Autodidact
You mental midget.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:22 a.m. CST
BREAKING BAD is so TRITE AND TIRED AND OLD HAT
by Autodidact
Geeze, guy finds out he's going to die and worries about leaving money to his family. What an old, worn out soap-opera plot!
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:22 a.m. CST
I liked Liefield back in the X-Force day, but...
by YO MOM'S GOAT
I dropped Hawk and Dove before it was cancelled and while I really actually enjoyed Deathstroke under its initial creative team, I dropped it too after two issues written and drawn by Mr. Liefield. Changing looks from panel to panel? How about changing the tone, motivation, style of speech, thought and action from one issue to the next? I will not mourn his departure this time.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:22 a.m. CST
I'm not saying my opinions are definitive. I'm asking you to offer any kind of actual backup for your broad assertions which are not even presented as opinion.
by Autodidact
You dog fucker.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:25 a.m. CST
Your logic is incoherent. Not your statements.
by Autodidact
This may seem like parsing, but hey sometimes you have to look at what someone's actually saying and not pretend that being an obtuse fuckwit will win you the argument.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:31 a.m. CST
Let's look at what incoherent means
by Autodidact
It means I can't see where your supporting statements are meant to connect to the argument. As pointed out, listing a bunch of short character descriptions and saying that the characters are flat because they can be summed up is logically fallacious and furthermore as mentioned previous shows that you don't even know what is meant by FLAT CHARACTER. etc. man I am procrastinating hard. I'm going to close this window now.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:34 a.m. CST
I wouldn't say that slug line of Walter White is accurate
by Laserhead
Talk about Breaking Bad some more, speaking of straw arguments. At the time, '85, I think British comics in general, like all Pat Mills' stuff, anything by Grant Morrison, Dark Knight Returns, Squadron Supreme, anything by mid-80s Brendan McCarthy, and hell, probably anything by Steve Gerber would have more complexity in its character than Watchmen. For examples in comics of the government-sanctioned fascist hero, look at any strip in 2000 AD, which had been making them for a long, long time before Watchmen. But I never said "Moore wasn't the first to do this in comics" I just said it had the depth and facility and style of a mid-80s soap opera. Flat characters are characters that have one of two overarching traits that completely define them. That's not to say a flat character can't be dynamic-- Shakespeare and Dickens wrote lots of dynamic flat characters (though I wouldn't say MacBeth is flat; Iago is flat, but dynamic). What they don't have is complexity, and neither does anyone in Watchmen. It is not that I describe the characters with a slug line; I describe the characters accurately, and also their whole arc in their slug lines, which displays how limited they are as creations. Steven Engleheart used to do that kind of 'free will/fate' philosophy in all his 70s work, and if your 1985 comic is basically aping the type of philosophical issues tackled by 'Star Trek' in the 60s, it's not brilliant. You haven't explained how Veidt's plan isn't the stupidest goddamn thing in the world. Nor have you shown that the characters in Watchmen aren't flat. Nor have you shown that the 'plot twists' aren't facile and cliched, even for '85. Because, of course, you're choking on Moore's chode.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:34 a.m. CST
Why is this turning into a TV tropes thread?
by Greg Nielsen
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:36 a.m. CST
@Laserhead: You sir mentioned Pat Mills and Brendan McCarthy...
by Greg Nielsen
I got your back from now on. CREDO!!!
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:38 a.m. CST
None of your descriptions are "complete"
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:40 a.m. CST
I wouldn't know where to start to prove that the plot is not like a soap opera, and come to think of it I might not deny that certain parts of it are soap opera-esque but then again the same can be said about every fictional story so fail again there on y
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:41 a.m. CST
The soap opera aspects are very well-executed, is how I'd defend it. They add to the particularly savoury and satisfying gumbo that is WATCHMEN.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:49 a.m. CST
Gee, I suppose it's been a morning of failures for me.
by Laserhead
With all that failed, I'll go fail in the privacy of my own home for awhile, then maybe take a walk and fail around Los Angeles a few hours, come back home, fail some more, then fail to go to sleep, and by extension, fail to wake up. Great.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:49 a.m. CST
BREAKING BAD - such flat characters
by Autodidact
Walter White - Man who sacrificed career for family is faced with a terminal illness and makes serious plans for most effective use of his remaining time. (just like Michael Keaton in MY LIFE or those old fucks in Bucket List, etc.) Skyler White - Annoying, harried, competent wife. (uhhmm hello Tony Soprano's wife) Jesse Pinkman - Potential-squandering junkie with a spark of intelligence. (that big-nose guy on the Sopranos) Gus Fring - Criminal mastermind cloaked in a fastidious exterior. (OMG didn't we see enough of this character before)
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:51 a.m. CST
The preceeding post was parody
by Autodidact
Just in case anyone thinks I don't understand what is meant by the term FLAT CHARACTER.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:53 a.m. CST
Actually I'm going to have to admit that Skyler is a flat character
by Autodidact
Even when they're supposed to be revealing something new about her, the way she's written and acted is fairly described as "flat". Maybe Jesse, too. I like his character but also find him kinda flat now that I think about it. I love whenever he calls someone "bitch" though because you know he'll get his ass handed to him every time.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:55 a.m. CST
Yes, Skylar's flat
by Laserhead
And, I'm thinking, dead as a doornail pretty soon. Which is fine. I've never forgiven her for that inexcusable hand-job on Walt's birthday during the pilot. What a swell wife. Anyways, back to failing.
Aug. 30, 2012, 11:58 a.m. CST
No spoilers pls. I'm on Netflix which means no season 5 for a while.
by Autodidact
Aug. 30, 2012, 12:15 p.m. CST
Squadron Supreme
by Hedgehog000
Once again, Yorgo name checks a book I really liked. The Gruenwald Squadron book came out about the same time as a lot of other milestone books in the 80s and was unfairly overlooked. What made it unique, is that it had more realistic heroes but retained the silver age traditions of comic books. Many of those other books decided the idea of a superhero was just plain wrong and threw out the baby with the bath water so to speak (don't get me wrong, I liked a number of those series). BTW - King Hyperion is not the Hyperion from the Gruenwald series or the Avengers/Thor books that proceded it. He is from an alternate universe, he was pure evil and he seemed to be much, much more powerful than any Marvel hero - almost on the level of silver age Superman. It was a lot of fun - but when they brought him to 616 Marvel they couldn't have him beating the crap out of "our universes" heroes so he became a wuss - a shame really.
Aug. 30, 2012, 12:26 p.m. CST
Watchmen and Zombies
by Hedgehog000
I not very excited about a Watchmen prequel, because I too liked the original and don't think a prequel would add anything - and I don't like prequels. However, the amount of sturm and drag over this seems beyond over the top. Not long ago, somebody decided to rewrite Pride and Prejudice because they thought it needed zombies. Now, most non-comic fans, meaning most people would consider Pride and Prejudice a more significant book then Watchmen. Yet, I haven't heard of many people screaming about the rape of Jane Austen. Girls in glasses and tweed skirts haven't rioted. Nobody's called for boycotts. If that example doesn't work for you, there have been at least a couple of forgettable sequels to Gone With The Wind. Some overrated hack has made a ton of money both in print and Broadway by totally redoing Baum's version of Oz (a far greater desecration to Baum's vision than anything being done to Watchmen). And of course every cutting edge visionary out there feels totally free to take Shakespeare's work and screw with it any way they wish. Yet most normal people ignore or enjoy these altered versions as they wish. I'm sorry but as for these new version of Watchmen, I will ignore them, but I'm not going nuts over their mere existense.
Aug. 30, 2012, 12:28 p.m. CST
@Hedgehog000: Yeah sorry not trying to name check so much as point out it's awesome...
by Greg Nielsen
It's before Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. It's actually telling mature story in a different way without attacking the conventions of comicbooks out of some misplaced shame. Dave Gibbons seems to enjoy comics. It's why Watchmen works because he gives us something within it that was done out of love and a genuine affection for the medium. Squadron Supreme is superior to Watchmen in that the artist and the writer are not trying to undermine a medium and attack the intended audience. Squadron Supreme is the thing we should have be celebrating instead of Watchmen. It's sad that the industry is so self loathing as to embrace that which hates it over that which loves it. But you, Sir Hedgehog000 are man of taste. Always good to see you.
Aug. 30, 2012, 12:49 p.m. CST
by Laserhead
I totally agree on SS. I'm not even hugely down on the original Watchmen-- I like it fine for what it is; I just say it's far from perfection and definitely not high art, then offer my reasons why. But what really seems asinine to me is the amount of outraged noise a vocal contingent of fanboys is making. All this over a man who has made AN ENTIRE CAREER off of writing the characters and ideas of other creators. Moore said "Nobody wrote a sequel to Moby Dick." a) Watchmen ain't Moby Dick, and it's laughable narcissism that he feels comfortable comparing them; b) Someone did write a sequel to Moby Dick, lots of someones, the most recent, I think, being called 'Ahab's Wife'. As you said, notice the pronounced lack of vocal outrage. Because anybody knows that 'Ahab's Wife' cannot diminish 'Moby Dick'; c) Moore fucking put Ishmael in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. So a lot of the energy I exhibit in my criticism of Watchmen is powered by the urge to deflate its supposed icon-status and the sainting of Al Moore.
Aug. 30, 2012, 2:03 p.m. CST
Fave mid-80s comics--
by Laserhead
Cerebus was great back then, and seemingly intent on exploring every foundation of civilized existence. American Flagg! (actually gets better as time goes by). I recently read these again, and there must have been a brief window in time where Baron and Rude's Nexus was the best English-language comic on the planet. I've got fond memories of Jon Sable, but a recent perusal of an omnibus read like old Magnum P.I. These are not fighting words. I'm just talking comics.
Aug. 30, 2012, 3:26 p.m. CST
Watchmen is important, not perfect, because of what it did to comic books and superhero stereotypes
by Jaka
It deconstructed them, turned on a bright light and showed you their cracks, their flaws. By the time Watchmen was done, the way superhero books would be written was changed forever. That's why it's important. Not because it's "perfect", or because Moore invented some new, fabulous characters. We all know he didn't at this point. What he did was show us a new way to look at those characters. Something he's done repeatedly within his other works.
Aug. 30, 2012, 3:41 p.m. CST
*high fives* laserhead
by Jaka
Cerebus was great for, really, 75% of it's 300 issue run. Dave admittedly went off the tracks a few times, but he always got things going in the right direction soon enough. <p> In fact, I might go so far as to say I enjoyed Cerebus more in the 90s than I did in the 80s. The 80s were funnier, sure, but in the 90s he and Ger were consistently turning out beautifully drawn and written novels, twenty pages at a time. What they did with story structure and page layouts has yet to be approached by anyone else over such a long haul (although JH Williams stuff is pretty amazing with the page layouts these days - looking forward to seeing what he does with Sandman). I think that's something that's missed with the phone books, where you're getting hundreds of pages at a time. When you picked up Cerebus as a monthly, you never knew exactly what you were going to get (even if it was another twenty pages in that damn bar) and it rarely looked, or read, like anything else. <p> I honestly think his biggest failing was cutting off the outside world and no longer listening to what people had to say (until after the run was over, anyway). The removal of the letter column from that book was a sad day for me.
Aug. 30, 2012, 4:35 p.m. CST
Minutemen 3 SPOILERS kind of
by Homer Sexual
So I really enjoyed the most recent issue of Minutemen, but there was one thing that bothered me. The scene with Comedian calling out Nelson and Hangman was really good, but I don't think the Hangman/Comedian scene was believable. It was a huge change from the Watchmen portrayal and reminded me of Deathstroke taking out the whole JLA. Silhouettee and Nite Owl, great characterization. Comedian as well, but he was just TOO tough.
Aug. 30, 2012, 4:39 p.m. CST
Squadron Supreme was the deconstuction before Watchmen...
by Greg Nielsen
Watchmen is just PR and the hot wind of a greasy fart. I still like it.
Aug. 30, 2012, 4:43 p.m. CST
@Homer: Glad I'm not alone on Minutemen 3...
by Greg Nielsen
It didn't really make sense. Also, is it just me or are all the Minutemen coming off like crap now? Also, they never really explained what happened at the end of issue 2...or is it just crap we found a dead kid? I'm now ok with Minutemen. I didn't like it all that much at first. It was off putting to me at first but I'm enjoying it more and more. The Comedian is rather oddly portrayed from issue to issue. The Comedian in Ozymandias is a very different character there. Much more crazy and menacing. Minutemen, he's a bit more of a goof. Comedian, he's like a character from The Shield or The Wire. Well either way things go. I'm at least enjoying it.
Aug. 30, 2012, 4:51 p.m. CST
Awesome points, and I'm jumping in...
by Homer Sexual
Cause other people are now referencing King Hyperion and I brought him up. So yay me! I didn't even know that version of Hyperion was ever brought into the 616. They didn't actually call him "King Hyperion" did they? Cause that was the title of the story not the character. And I am going to get berated for these examples of characters as complex as Watchmen from the 80's, cause they're so mainstream. First, Moore's own characters Abby and Alec from his Swamp Thing. Second, was Sandman around then? Im not saying Morpheus as much as pretty much every character besides him. And John Constantine. And.... well, Hank Pym... re-reading the Trial of Yellowjacket and they really develop Hank Pym in this one. And Tigra from her brief Avengers and longer West Coast Avengers. Those had terrible art (giant tea cups, anyone) but I was in college and my female friends loooved WCA because of Tigra and her conflicts with her "Slutty cat nature" banging every guy in WCA. Also, why aren't the Civil War devotees (who appear to be legion) up in arms about Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter... But OTOH I have always hated what Bendis did to Scarlet Witch in Disassembled and his response was "you can still re-read all your old Avengers with her before this happened" and I didn't really like that response. PS: Even the people at my LCS think Rorschach has always been a very generic character.
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:08 p.m. CST
Sandman was a couple years after Watchmen and it didn't really get going until the second arc
by Jaka
But yeah, that's another game changer, for sure. Vertigo has existed for nearly twenty years, basically, because Sandman was selling such huge numbers to adults. You'll get no argument from me regarding the brilliance, complexity or influence of that book (seeing as how it's my second favorite after Cerebus).
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:13 p.m. CST
OK, I'll be right up front about this, I can't really join the conversation...
by Jaka
...because I've never read a single issue of Squadron Supreme. However, in reading the Squadron Supreme wiki page I can tell you that it sounds nothing like Watchmen. It sounds like another long-running spandex book set firmly within the Marvel comic book universe. Again, I can't fairly compare them because I've only read Watchmen. But from reading about it, they sound nothing alike. With just 12 issues, Watchmen changed the foundation of modern comics. If Squadron Supreme had done that, I'm pretty sure I would have heard more about it in the last thirty years.
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:20 p.m. CST
Swamp Thing
by Jaka
Yeah, Moore's work on Swamp Thing was years before Watchmen, and while he did reinvent characters and use them in a way different from what had come before, they were still not so far out of the box as to be unheard of, or unique. <p> Swamp Thing did become an adult themed book before pretty much anything else that was considered mainstream, though (eventually landing on Vertigo, itself). Before Watchmen and Sandman.
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:35 p.m. CST
One more thing regarding the influence of Watchmen
by Jaka
I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should love, or even appreciate Watchmen. That's not at all the point I'm trying to make. What I'm trying to get across is that it's INFLUENCE is undeniable, and that history, hindsight and personal opinions on the writer of the book interfere with how people feel about it today. And then there's the contrarians, who will hate it just because it gets talked about so much. <p> The best comparison I can make is Nivana's 'Nevermind'. I know people now who hate that album. Even people who liked it then, or who like that kind of music. Now, twenty years later, they can't discuss it with the freshness of it's initial impact. I also know many people of younger generations listen to it and they just don't get it. It's not of this time and our modern day musical and pop culture resembles it not ONE BIT. But if you lived through it, and are able to process it's influence objectively, there is before Nevermind and after Nevermind. Both the popular and underground musical landscape were forever changed by that album. <p> Watchmen had that affect on comic books. There was bands doing what Nirvana was doing before then, so I'm sure there was other comic books living in the same realm as Watchmen. But it was Watchmen that kicked the door down, sat on the couch and made itself comfortable.
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:42 p.m. CST
Squadron Supreme's wiki page doesn't really explain it right...
by Greg Nielsen
The original mini is essentially the JLA deciding to take over the world because things are going right. Some people disagree. Things eventually lead to a confrontation. It does all the same deconstruction as Watchmen. You got sexual deviants with Dr. Spectrum(Green Lantern) Alienation with Zarda and Hyperion Political stances with a libertarian NightHawk and a totalitarian Hyperion Questions of who is really moral when the villains and heroes are teaming up to take down the Squadron together. The Watchmen format of a few issues of actual plot and way more devoted to characters is also in Squadron Supreme. About 8 issues are devoted to a single character and their reactions to the world around them. The rest are actual plot with character moments interspersed. The whole thing is done like a Bronze or Silver age comic and because of that I think a lot of people ignore it. It doesn't make a huge show of itself like Watchmen and it seems much more like a curio because it's a JLA knock off team from Marvel. It's honestly though the key to the modern age. It came out 10 years or so before Watchmen. It's the groundwork in my opinion. I could be wrong though. I've only been reading comics for around 5 years. So, alien eyes and all. Something tells me though that this thing is honestly the unspoken industry influencer. Kinda like how there are movies that film makers love and are influenced by that the public doesn't care for or thinks is stupid and they like it that way cause it's their secret.
Aug. 30, 2012, 5:43 p.m. CST
I will find King Hyperion cause Homer is cool....
by Greg Nielsen
Homer seriously...you seem like a cool dude. Oh and Tigra is awesome. You can put that nugget in your chicken bucket.
Aug. 30, 2012, 6:22 p.m. CST
OK, I'm taking a look and I'm not sure which Squadron Supreme books I should be checking out
by Jaka
If you can give me some direction in that regard I'll give them a try.
Aug. 30, 2012, 6:23 p.m. CST
The original Squadron Supreme by Mark Gruenwald...
by Greg Nielsen
Stay far away from JMS... here's an amazon link http://www.amazon.com/Squadron-Supreme-Mark-Gruenwald/dp/078510576X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346368984&sr=8-1&keywords=squadron+supreme
Aug. 30, 2012, 8:33 p.m. CST
People don't like Nevermind??
by Homer Sexual
OMG! Ok, I prefer unplugged. But I can't believe some people don't like Nevermind. I always thought/think I was sooo cool because I listened to it for months before it really hit big. But it's a good example and the dark style of Watchmen was really influential. That hits the nail on the head, fo sho. While I actually do enjoy SS more, it was much more traditionally presented. To me, that makes it more subversive, with the Spandex set crossing a lot of lines. And the characters are much more likable. But the art especially is very traditional. Thanks yorgo, you made my day!
Aug. 31, 2012, 10:35 a.m. CST
80s comics
by Laserhead
On reflection, I'd actually say that anybody in ElfQuest had more complexity and depth than anybody in Watchmen. Better plotting, too. Moore and I agree that Pat Mills' 'Charley's War' is the greatest comic ever made. Nexus Nexus Nexus!
Aug. 31, 2012, 10:55 a.m. CST
by Hedgehog000
I actually liked JMS original 18 issue Squadron series. Sure it was decompressed beyond all belief and was totally separate from all earlier versions of the Squadron but it was an interesting take on superheroes in the "real" world. It was kind of like an Earth1 type series but far better than what he did in Earth 1. The Squadron appeared in several Avengers series that you can probably find in Essentials. Some of those appearances are entertaining, just keep in mind that the point was to show the Avengers beating up the JLA, so JLA fans will find it biased. Gruenwald's series springs out of some of those early Avengers stories and really does make a good book. They never really did much with that iteration except the periodic appearance as also rans in the Avengers. The King Hyperion in the Exiles basically eventually wound up on 616 Earth where he got taken down by someone I'd never heard of and brought into the Thunderbolts where he got taken down again.
Aug. 31, 2012, 10:58 a.m. CST
Yeah and what does the art in Elfquest look like?
by Autodidact
Like a guy still learning to draw, that's what. Also, you came up with one example. Have you taken any statistics? Your one example doesn't exactly shunt WATCHMEN down the complexity/depth continuum into the trite/old-hat/flat region. It's still a couple deviations right of centre.
Aug. 31, 2012, 11:19 a.m. CST
I came up with several examples
by Laserhead
See above. The art in Elfquest is very good-- not Dave Gibbons good, but much better than what was happening in mainstream comics. Anyways, here's those mid-80s examples of better, deeper characterization than Watchmeh (again). Cerebus. Nexus. Zenith by Grant Morrison. Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. Daredevil by Frank Miller. Anything coming out of Britain, especially anything by Pat Mills or Bendan McCarthy. American Flagg! by Howard Chaykin (best comic of the 80s, period). Jon Sable by Mike Grell. Spider-Man by Roger Stern and Ron Frenz... These are just off the top of my head. I was like, 9, and didn't exactly read everything that was published at the time. The best thing Moore's ever done with superheroes is Marvelman. Everything super-hero he's done after that has just been a variation on the one-trick deconstruction he used so well in that series.
Aug. 31, 2012, 11:21 a.m. CST
Now it's time for you to defend your assertations
by Laserhead
Explain to me how Adrian Veidt's plan isn't the dumbest, most inane and absurdly stupid plan ever devised. You can't say 'But it worked!' No, that's just a story. Talk about how the smartest man in the world came up with the most idiotic, bullshit plan to "save the world" ever. EVER.
Aug. 31, 2012, 2:34 p.m. CST
I beg to differ on the art in Elfquest
by Autodidact
Aug. 31, 2012, 2:42 p.m. CST
I'm not sure how I can prove that it isn't dumb if the fact that it worked out exactly as planned isn't enough to support the notion that it was not a dumb plan.
by Autodidact
A dumb plan would have been to trick the world into unity by having the AMERICAN superweapon simultaneously destroy cities around the world. That would have been stupid. Killing the biggest city in the world to create an illusion startling enough to save the rest of the world is, I'm sorry, genius. Diabolical, but genius.
Aug. 31, 2012, 2:46 p.m. CST
I have read about 3/4 of what you list and would disagree about the Frank Miller stuff being deeper or having less flat characters than WATCHMEN.
by Autodidact
And you keep trying to place things in context of Moore's career. I don't care how much he stole and how much of a hypocrite he is. WATCHMEN was perfect and self-contained, and now it's tainted by all the stupid hacks and dimwit marketing victims who glom onto his legacy while shit-talking him.
Aug. 31, 2012, 2:47 p.m. CST
Cerebus is a shit comic. Yeah, I said it. Dave Sim is a crazy fuck to boot.
by Autodidact
Aug. 31, 2012, 2:51 p.m. CST
Some of your other examples might very well have better character or plotting (doubtful) but I don't think any were singular or self-contained the way WATCHMEN had been.
by Autodidact
I laugh at the idea of WATCHMEN being old hat in 1987.
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