text:
How Having a "Tell" Can Give Someone The Impression That You'll Tolerate Their Behaviour Or Issues
When we have low self-esteem and/or we are not being ourselves and even going so far as to misrepresent ourselves, we actually have 'tells', unconscious actions that are perceived to 'betray' an attempted deception or what we're trying to put across about ourselves. We can find ourselves saying, doing and agreeing to things because we think "I can handle it!" or "I want to give the impression that I'm ________" or we don't want to give off any vibes that may scare them off or bugger up the 'relationship deal'. We overestimate our capacity for a relationship, we overestimate our interest and yes, sometimes we overestimate our readiness to date and how over our ex we are and yes, sometimes we exaggerate. Let's be real – some people just talk out of their bottoms.
Like Chris Rock said, when we first start dating someone, it's not the real us that we're sending out but our "representatives". I've said this many times and I'll say it again; people unfold. Unless you're dealing with a skilled con artist, most people including the personality disordered have "tells" that if you'll heed the feedback, you'll be able to get a more realistic picture of who and what you're dealing with.
We communicate messages about ourselves not just in what we say and do but also in what's left unsaid and undone. We also communicate messages about ourselves when our actions and words don't match (the all-important inconsistencies) and we communicate even more when our actions and words take us away from our own values and essentially who we are.
I've had so many readers left perplexed by the question of why somebody felt that they could be or do something around them. The question of what was it about you that gave the impression that you'd tolerate something can keep you awake at night. "Why me?" or "Why him/her and not me?"
An ex colleague actually told me that he didn't talk to me about career opportunities (that didn't exist anyway and were a ruse to get 'dates') because I wasn't "agreeable" enough. That was my 'tell' which prevented him from chatting all the BS to me that he had to so many other women in our office.
If you're wondering why someone did something when you feel that at that point they wouldn't have had the security of knowing how you'd respond, it's highly likely to be because they were chancing their arm which means that they take the risk, not because they've assessed the situation and got a cue from you but more because they're taking a chance and if they get the desired result, happy days and if they don't, they'll go to plan B. Or split. It's like asking you for £100 when you hardly know them. Hopefully you say NO, but you might give it to them, or say "Yes, but I can only manage £50″. The risk has paid off but by giving them the money, however much it is, irregardless of how you think that you should be perceived, they may decide that you're an easy mark for taking advantage. It's the same when people reply those 419 scams or reply to claim their lottery win for the lottery that they never entered. Apparently some people have been scammed by these several times because the criminals figured their first responses made them good 'marks'.
Your 'tell' can be determined by your response or lack of it.
If for instance you have an active assertive response around someone who is passive aggressive or aggressive, they might decide that you're "too much effort". If you have a passive response, that same passive aggressive or aggressive person works out that you'll be more malleable and receptive.
Examples of 'tells':
- Giving them the time of day. Seems so unfair but some people are so aware of who they are and may have already given some subtle or even obvious clues, that they decide that they can be and do certain things with you because you're interested in them.
- Believing their lies or promises even if you hardly know them or they've already given you reasons to distrust them.
- Going from being guarded and even aloof or cool, calm and confident to letting yourself be swept up in Fast Forwarding and even abandoning all of your boundaries or friends and family.
- Apologising and even sucking up to them even when you haven't actually done something wrong.
- Showing eagerness to be with them or to work at the relationship even when there is code amber and red behaviour or it's not a relationship.
- Letting them back into your life after radio silence and no explanation.
- Participating in a virtual / text 'relationship' for a lengthy period of time.
- Disclosing all of your insecurities to them which is a bit like giving them the blueprints to screw you over and even making them promise not to hurt you.
- Staying after disrespect, neglect etc., especially when no remorse is shown.
- Being willing to take the blame for 'everything'.
- Treating them like your power supply and your life source.
- Being a people pleaser.
These actions all unconsciously communicate messages about you that betray any perception of you that you've tried to put across. These 'tells' communicate your vulnerabilities and / or areas of contradiction.
But don't forget that it cuts both ways and that anything that falls into code amber and red behaviour is a "tell" particularly:
- Actions and words not matching.
- Fast Forwarding where intensity is used to speed you through the early stages of dating and blind you. It's not flattering; it's a danger warning.
- Abusive behaviour including even considering someone to be narcissistically inclined and 'chopping'.
- Lack of empathy, lack of morals, not seeming to know or respectright from wrong and telling lies or even dripfeeding lies.
- An unwillingness to accept responsibility, lack of remorse, fake remorse and pressing the Reset Button,
- 'Referring to all of their exes as psychos/stalkers, talking about their ex on the regular or being in touch with them to 'negotiate' getting back together.
- Addictions and anything that affects them being emotionally, spiritually and physically available for a relationship.
- Being willing to talk and meet as well as text, and more.
Anybody who is doing any of this stuff is not giving you their poker face; they're showing you who they are.
Aside from making sure that you conduct yourself in an authentic manner by living by your own values, having boundaries, and essentially being you, plus handling anything that has been a "tell" in the past, it's important to realise that particularly in the discovery phase of getting to know someone, you have to process all of the information and begin to recognise cues that indicate a conflict in values and trouble ahead. Only someone who suffers with Those Who Doth Protest Too Much is going to try to tell you who they are but everybody shows you who they are. The key is to take in all the feedback from the communicated messages (including unsaid and undone) instead of being 'selective' and only focusing on 'good points' or overvaluing something that in the grander scheme of things doesn't mean much if your relationship cannot get off the ground.
It's also important to remember that you can have a good "tell" in the form of your boundaries and also in being assertive by stepping up for you when you need to. These can only communicategood information about you. Having boundaries and being assertive aregood acts of self-care that will keep at bay or keep out those who don't add good to your lifeanyway.
Your thoughts?
Natalie Lue is the founder and writer of Baggage Reclaim and author of the books Mr Unavailable and the Fallback Girl, The Dreamer and the Fantasy Relationship and more. Learn more about her here and you can also follow her on Facebook and Twitter – @baggagereclaim .
Natalie (NML) – who has written 1176 posts on Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue.
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294 Responses to How Having a "Tell" Can Give Someone The Impression That You'll Tolerate Their Behaviour Or Issues
Revolution says:
It's gettin' INTENSE up in here! Thanks for the reminder, Nat. I hope that I'm not one that crosses the line with my comments (meandering though they are), but I am confident that if I am, you will be hard and fast with directing me back over the line. And I will be happy to oblige.
And Freya. I'm not a huge fan of wolves myself. Put a few on their back in my day. Maybe you should rethink the system. Just sayin'.
Grizelda says:
Likewise, Rev –
No more comments from me whenever I'm feeling overstrung. I'm not the kind of woman who rings her best friend at 3.15am to wake her up so I can bawl and bark and whimper and unload when all I have to do is sit tight til daybreak when things look a lot different. No way do I want to do the equivalent of that here on BR. If I ever lose my mind and try it, I trust Natalie will put that phone down on me. I would not be offended.
I still prefer a dose of edginess and controversy though. They can't be shied away from, given the heady mix of the emotive topics at hand as well as — for me, anyway, and I'm sure many others — a tearing down of some of the beliefs instilled in us by our well-meaning parents/guardians etc at an early age about how to handle relationships. Hmm, 'tearing down' or 'upgrading'? 'Rehabbing'? 'De-programming'?
Andrea says:
Boy could I use some advice and/or comments and help! My EUM was someone from high school (I've read Natalie's posts about the return of the childhood sweetheart which are excellent). We have been off and on since mid-July. Once we had gotten together, meaning had sex, he told me that there is another woman in his life. Someone he is waiting on. The thing is, she was in love with a married man. So she also had an EUM! I know that I should've told him where to go at that point, not stuck around. But he's pretty good and telling me things and feeding me lines, that I guess I haven't heard in so long from any man that I just because almost addicted to it. I haven't been in a serious relationship with anyone in over 10 years, have not called anyone my "boyfriend" in all that time. I'm 45 years old. So my EUM came into my life and I've tried to end this. I've "ended" it at least 3 times and guess what happens when I do this. He comes back and persists and wears me down and I fall back into it. This has been going on for 3 months. He's definitely a hot and cold guy, it's very predictable. After reading many posts on this site I can almost pinpoint exactly how he's going to react and/or say and do. I realize that my self-esteem much be pretty darn low to accept this behaviour. The man has come right out and said he's going to be in a relationship with this woman that he's been pining away for in the new year. This also doesn't make that much sense to me, if she really wanted him why does she need to wait until the new year? I then say, if he really wanted ME, he'd pick me now too and not string me along. Seems like it's just one big mess and I don't know how to stop it. I've tried no contact. I've even changed my phone number. He got it out of me and I hate admitting these things because it sounds very weak. This guy was my very first kiss at 14, my first love. I think that this is part of the hold he's got on me. I remember almost every detail of when he dated back then, more so than any of my other high school boyfriends that I spent longer time with. I almost feel like I need addiction counselling because this is what it reminds me of. I'm addicted to him and I don't know how to quit!! And I'm not going to get anything out of this, not long term. I realize this is a huge ego thing for me, as well as it is for him. I really do admire and envy all of you that have been able to break free and move forward. It almost feels like if I lose him I lose something of me??
I would appreciate anyone's comments and suggestions. I'm beyond frustrated and so tired of feeling this up and down and anxiety.
grace says:
You are having casual sex with a liar. Been there. NC him even if it means spending your days weeping into the carpet.
But I suggest you find more productive things to do.
I'm being blunt because I need to cut through the romanticising.
He is not that special.-
Andrea says:
Thank you Grace for your bluntness! I appreciate you saying it how it is, I need to hear that.
P. says:
Grace, all ladies on BR, this is what we should print out in 20 point font even if we are not in a relationship:
- as a reminder/warning/whatever. Enough said.
Grizelda says:
You seem to have all the answers already. In relation to the post, your hunger for a relationship and nostalgia are two big 'tells' — so much so that he was actually comfortable giving you a casual warning (which IMO can only have been calculated to hurt you) that his heart belongs to another woman pretty immediately after he bedded you. After, of course, not before! Naturally. He unfolded then. Like a badly made origami assclown.
The whole story about the woman and the married man and her love and his love and oh the pining and woe the pain and their being unfairly kept apart and the apparent timetable in the new year and his ticket to board the 2013 Love Boat to Paradise (onto which your're very specifically uninvited)… Lies. All lies.
It's a terrible ploy firstly to try to get you to 'feel his hurt' (*snort* sorry that's rude) so you supply him with sex while simultaneously backing off and not hassling him emotionally. Secondly its purpose is to try to show you some kind of paltry 'evidence' that he is capable of love, oh yes he is, oh yes he really really really is, oh he's just so full of love and loyalty and goodness and romantic long-suffering and… oh but sorry, what? Oh no no no, not love for you of course! Hah! Hah hah! That'd be ridiculous wouldn't it! Thirdly, he's frankly daring you to ditch him. Daring you. It's like he's challenged you to a pistol duel at dawn — he's already taken his ten strides, turned around, and is aiming his pistol right at you, and you haven't even taken your pistol out of its box. What are you going to do in your own defense? The audience here are rigid in suspense. If you snap your fingers and go NC, you disappear in a puff of smoke that will not only save your skin but will show him a thing or two about you and the strength you really do have inside.
Andrea says:
Hi Grizelda,
Thank you so much for your words and thoughts. I love your comments about the 2013 Love Boat to paradise, I truly did LOL. Apparently she has given up the married man (I'd say more likely he ditched her) and she has decided to "commit" to my EUM. BUT…not until the new year. This is pretty laughable. What's more laughable is he believes this sh*t. I'm definitely drawing strength from reading all the posts on this website and sharing my thoughts and hearing advice like yours makes it a bit easier to not feel so silly that I let myself get suckered in by this very big assclown. Thanks again. I think that NC is my only recourse and once I get past the initial withdrawal of the validation I was getting, I hope to be moving forward and fast!!
Mia says:
I read a book called "Women who love too much". You spoke of feeling addicted and that's exactly what the book speaks of.It helped me alot with my ex eum/boy:-) We all know how it feels to be on an emotional rollercoaster, but when you finally realize you do not need to put up with the foolishness, you GET OFF! You say: It almost feels like if I lose him I lose something of me?? Sorry honey, by staying in that losing situation…you are already losing you(your mind,sleep,prob.cant eat,self worth amongst many others)…TAKE IT ALL BACK!Think of it as a challenge! Many blessings on your journey, you'll get there! Love Peace Happiness!
dancingqueen says:
I hear you Mia but I have to say, I hate, hate, hate using the word "addicted" when talking about these nutty men…we have all been there, done that with these dudes. That is not remotely addiction, we have *chosen* that path.
We have felt addicted…but that is not the same *as* addicted and when we say it, we are choosing to portray ourselves as at the mercy of something that holds us in its sway.
Andrea; let me say it straight…if you get rid of this guy you will not have DT's, you will not start vomiting and cramping, you will not have to be hooked up to an IV to feed you liquids and meds while your body struggles to right itself…stop giving him so much power! So WHAT you kissed him at 14; is that really so terribly important? I kissed someone at 14 too and he is still my alternate password ("Who was your first boyfriend?")that comes up when I use a different laptop to access my bank. He is just a man who eats, farts, sleeps and picks his nose.
Andrea says:
Hi Dancingqueen,
Thank you for your reply! And I totally am with you about my comment, calling it an addiction. That was the wrong word as you are right, I won't have any DT's etc when apart. I guess it's more of an anxious feeling, which isn't nice either but certainly nothing that hopefully just NC will get rid of.-
dancingqueen says:
good for you Andrea; you are right, this is NOT an addiction this is you, for lack of a better phrase, gravitating to romantic junk food of the worst kind; pre-packaged, unimaginative, full of junk that makes you weak and ill. You could be feeding yourself healthy, real food that nourishes you…junk food ( and junk men) be gone:)!
P. says:
After one breakup I was so physically affected I believe it was close to withdrawal symptoms. I could not eat, could not sleep, could not focus, stopped seeing colors (world in black and white = surreal), and eventually got a kidney infection (from not drinking enough?) and had to go to emergency room.
dancingqueen says:
Mia I should have addressed that more to Andrea; you really were not the right person for me to reply to sorry:)!
Andrea says:
Hi Mia,
Thank you for your reply and comments. And you are right, I have lost myself for the past few months since this started. I have slowly started to take things back again. Focusing on him the past few months took my mind off of everything that I loved to do but I'm reining it in again. Thank you for the book recommendation as well!
Lavender says:
Andrea, I have been in a similar situation and really you need to get out of it. The thing is that when I was in that situation it didn't matter what anyone else said, I couldn't give the guy up, I was similarly addicted. It was extremely difficult for me to get over it. In the end he was a terrible person and no matter how many horrible things he did I didn't care. No contact really helps these situations. Even if it didn't help before, try it again and again and again until it does work. For me it took about six goes before I stuck with it. You are better than this situation. Imagine how nice it will be to be with a guy who doesn't tell you he wants to be with someone else.
Andrea says:
Hi Lavender,
Thanks for your thoughts and advice. It seems that NC is the best solution as I've been reading. I am so grateful for this website, not even sure how I came upon it but what great timing and reading all the posts and comments help so much with these situations. I often wonder what is it about me that makes me let these assclowns into my life and do what they do.-
runnergirl says:
Hi Andrea,
"I often wonder what is it about me that makes me let these assclowns into my life and do what they do." I wondered the same thing. Stick with Natalie and BR. The answers to your question are within everyone of Natalie's posts, particularly this one and the comments from the brilliant BR folks. Start with the first 'tell'. And get her books as soon as you can. It took me a while to get a grip, not that I'm fully gripped. While I was working through things, I held firm to not giving AC's the time of day and/or flushing the minute they exhibited AC behavior, like there's another woman. Once you flush early on, then you don't open the door to their AC lines/crap. I don't mean to sound holier than thou by any means. I was a former OW to a married man for two years. So I was dripfed those lines so much so I have them memorized. Flushing at the first hint of AC'ness is like AC repellent or in BR language, a boundary. Boundaries are amazing.
Good luck getting out of that mess. If you lose him, you won't lose a part of you, you will gain you back! You can stop it.-
Andrea says:
Hi Runnergirl,
Thank you for your comments! I've read so many posts and I come to this site daily and so much of it has made me feel better and you always think that you are alone in what you are going through, but it's never the case. I'm certainly not cutting my EUM any slack but I do know that I have let him do what he does, and as I have read and come to know people only treat you how you allow yourself to be treated. I also realize that when people show you who they are, you better believe them! I'm very glad to hear you got rid of your AC!!
Thanks again. Andrea
K_Anon says:
I would like to know if AC's act deliberately or unconsciously? Are their actions, like, pre-meditated, or just part of their nature? It seems to me that it stems from an extreme sense of entitlement, so extreme to be abnormal. But is it done voluntarily or not? Also, it seems: ACs are simply people who are fundamentally NOT relationship people, but come across as ACs when they interact with others in a relationship-like context?
P. says:
I used to wonder about that, too, but now I think it does not matter. So what if they are not doing it "on purpose"? They are still hurting you… If you stop contact with them, maybe they will wonder what happened… not us.
Mymble says:
Well they are not somnambulists so yrs their actions are deliberate. The questionis perhaps more about whether the have a course or plan of action from the outset and do they intend to cause pain? I think the answer is yes and no. Sometimes they are swept away by enthusiasm at the beginning. The AC said to me he felt like he was 17 again, even as infatuated as I was that struck a chill in me. But then the thrill and the high wear off, pretty quick, and I think they justify it as "just not feeling it any more". They aren't up for any self analysis. They mess you about with their half in half out; they don't want a relationship but they don't want to lose the benefits or the potential to get benefits whenever they like. Their exact level of consciousness is hard to say; some (mine) are in denial because they like to think of themselves as a good guy. Others are more upfront with themselves. But, yep, deep down they all know their behaviour is crappy. It's telling (a "tell"!) they don't usually show any surprise when they get
Ultimately though it is a waste of time trying to work out what is going on in their heads and what they meant when they said x,y and z. In relation to any particular remark or action, probably not much, consciously at any rate.
I've spent way to much time trying to figure him out.-
Victorious says:
I think we dated the same guy mymumble! also said he "felt like he was 17 again" and then also said he "just wasn't feeling it any more." followed by a few months of flipflapping. I am sure they have a handbook.
kayakerkathy says:
Thank you ALL for your responses. They're a tremendous help. The more I read them, contemplate them, and rethink the whole experience, the more stuff I'm seeing, remembering, analyzing, and the more I know I did the right thing. Why does it all have to be so fricken hard??? LOL
You guys ROCK.
Vanessa says:
I want to say I have been lurking here for about a year. I finally got rid of my EU guy. We were committed for about 10 months and I spent 1.5 years getting over him. I went NC two weeks ago. He text me last night and I was able to resist texting back! I am so proud of myself. Thank you so much to this site and the comments I read. It really has helped.I appreciate all of you so much!
So I am in the process of rebuilding myself and putting together how to have a healthy relationship. I'm having a hard time understanding what's ok and what's not if that makes sense. I don't want to be disrespected or neglected or anything casual. I'm not that kind of girl and I will bail if I feel like that. but fast forwarding could just be the guys style? And his big dreams? My mom always told me to give benefit of doubt and now I am confused. I am really bad at thinking people are lying. I am just so honest and kind and suggestions here seem so.. harsh.? How do you know? Are there any suggestions/advice? Should I keep reading?
yoghurt says:
Hiya Vanessa
I thought it was harsh when I started reading too, but now that I've gone over to the DARK SIDE, mwahahahaha…Nah, kidding, but I'd keep reading. I think that this http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/youve-got-to-call-it-as-you-see-it-why-you-mustnt-fear-judging-a-situation-or-actions/ helped it click for me (I used to really hate criticising people when they were just-being-themselves-after-all) but when it comes down to it YOUR decisions about YOUR life have to come from YOU, not him, your mum, Mr Smith down the road or the dog.
Do you really, honestly, want to spend your life dancing attendance on someone who makes promises that he feels no obligation to keep (which is what future-faking is) and has no qualms about hassling you and preventing you from getting over him for eighteen months? Would you be able to trust him if he did turn round and change? Really?
He doesn't sound like a good bet. And your life and your choices are too precious to risk throwing away gambling on a three-legged donkey. If you're going to trust someone with your future, make sure it's someone whose behaviour/morals YOU feel comfortable with.
I'd stick with it – keep posting if it helps and good luck x
P. says:
good for you and, please, do NOT listen to your mother. I realized sometimes mother tell us to give men the benefit of the doubt, but what that really means is that they do not give US the benefit of the doubt, i.e., they are invalidating OUR judgment that way. Very difficult to get over that since we are conditioned to love them and trust them.
Changing says:
About you not willing to be a 'BR woman' . Two things. First, if at times you don't care about emotional connection and just want physical why not to go for it? I mean you know what makes you happy this minute, for the next hour or for the next 5 years. Just do what you want;) If you're the one who wants casual and the other person agrees or doesn't care then what's the problem? Second, if you don't want casual and think that you can start off with lack of respect (towards you) bad treatment ( of you) and overall neglect and make your way into a meaningful relationship it prob won't work. Don't you think? Plus the way people treat us is not so much about us. It's who they are. Are you planning to change them too? If you are.. in my experience the only chance these people change is if you treat yourself with respect and absolutely don't allow bad behavior. Why to sell yourself short? People can sense it right away;) like you can judging by your prior post
selkie says:
In the words of Clarissa Pinkola Estes, who wrote Women Who Run With the Wolves;
"Wolves never look more funny than when they have lost the scent and scramble to find it again: they hop in the air; they run in circles; they plow up the ground with their noses; they scratch the ground; then run ahead, then back, then stand stock still. They look as if they have lost their wits. But what they are really doing is picking up all the clues they can find.
Though a woman may look scattered when she has lost touch with the life values most and is running about trying to recapture it, she is gathering information, taking a taste of this, grabbing a paw up at that. Let her be. As soon as she processes all the information from the clues she's gathered, she'll be moving in an intentional manner again."This is many of us here. We are all at different stages of recovery. I identify with the beauty, resilience, and nobility of the wolf. Not the ability it has to sniff out the weak and take them down. It only does so when it has to eat, not to set itself above and apart. I respect your thoughts and your opinions, but in the spirit of the wild wolf in me, disagree with your assessment of us and stand with the BR pack. I find them inspiring. Excuse me while I go howl and hop in the air a little.
Lavender says:
I know exactly what a tell is because I see myself in what Nat wrote above. When I started reading Baggage Reclaim I realised that I had people in my life in all different contexts who treated me similarly, boyfriends, friends, colleagues, family members. There was something about me that they saw and made them think that it was acceptable to treat me poorly. I saw these people treat others well, but when it came to me, they would act in an abusive way. I didn't understand it. I still don't know what it is that makes people think that they can treat me this way, but I do know now that I am better able to spot this behaviour and not accept it myself.
I really have to say that after my last dodgy relationship I read a lot of things on relationships and people and nothing helped me as much as baggage reclaim has. I don't think I would have initiated no contact with the last dodgy guy and then been able to get over him if it wasn't for the things I read on this site. The process of understanding that I was putting up with terrible behaviour not just from him, but from a lot of people wasn't simple and it wasn't easy, but coming out the other side, it was definitely worth it.
I just feel sad that it took me so long to get it. Sad that I wasted so much time putting up with bad behaviour and sad that I made myself such a low priority in my life. I can't believe how naive I was. I wonder if others feel this way too. The last dodgy guy repeatedly told me I was really naive and he was right.
I'm trying to use these newly found skills in my every day life so that I can live a healthier and happier life emotionally and only surround myself with people who care about me. It sounds basic, but it was difficult for me to learn.
P. says:
Yes, I had the same experience. I saw this type of treatment from many people in my life, including professional contacts. It is difficult to deal with because I might need a reference from them. I am polite, but otherwise am NC with them, with family members who do this, as well. My social life shrunk but I feel better. Maybe over time I will have other people to relate to.
Sumumu says:
This is a great article. I have been reading your articles pretty faithfully for 2 years now and they continue to help me in my journey towards becoming self aware. I started this process at 34 as my epiphany 'relationship' fell apart and I stumbled onto your blog in a moment of 'google answer desperation', and I can honestly say the last two years of reading your blog, thinking and learning to look at events for what they are and not what i would like them to be or what is (temporarily) easier to swallow, have done more to prepare me for the rest of my 'relationship life' than the past fifteen years of actual experiences. With regards to this specific article, I have over this time learnt that the poor 'relationships' or interactions I have had with men are largely due to aspects of my own behavior and self esteem issues (many of which have escalated over time due to these same poor relationships) that I have to take responsibility for and work on. What BR has taught me is to be introspective and think about what I may have done to contribute to the situation. When asking myself as I often do at low moments 'why did person x,y,z.. choose me to engage in AC behaviour with?', it had previously occured to me that maybe it could be that the person I know (from numerous comments from friends, men, acquaintances over the years) I (unintentionally) portray to others at first encounter is very self contained and almost aloof, and for many men, especially arrogant men, men with something to prove, or men without positive values, this represents a challenge to 'break' me and prove that no matter my outward appearance, I can be 'gotten'. However, what I have accepted is that they would quickly discover after giving me a little attention, that the person I appear to be on the outside is not who I am on the inside, as I would respond very positively and almost instantly to a little aggressive attention, future faking and fast forwarding, probably in a manner that may be surprising to them and encourage them to continue that behaviour as it was obviously so effective in their pursuit of me. This of course would only cause me great distress and pain when I would finally realise that it was done to get what they want (after which they would simply disappear or start blowing hot and cold until I got frustrated and walked away), and not from any real or sustainable desire to have a meaningful relationship with me. So thank you Natalie for couching and concretising the fleeting realisation I had already come to in this manner, I love the concept of a "tell" and I will continue to work on myself and understanding what 'tells' I may be showing, not just to suppress them but to also eliminate the reason I may have the tell in the first place. When I read articles like these and realise that I have come such a long way, I really look forward to the day when I will be ready to show this wonderful new me to the right man. Thanks again for your tireless efforts. You really are a special person.
LetsDoItAgain says:
This will sound radical, but at its core all of these problems many women here are lamenting over are rooted in SEX. Simply, we must change the way we think about sex. Because the problem is not sex itself, after all sex is natural, but the emotion we have been taught to force ourselves to assign to it does nothing but make women vulnerable to men. For women, we are taught that sex and relationships are inseparable entities, and that we must obtain the relationship after the sex or we have lost, or that we should ensure we are in the relationship before "we give it up" to keep from losing.
This has women going to all types of desperate lengths and accepting all types of crummy behavior in order to get the relationship (and the pleasure of sex). Or it has a woman fooling herself into believing anything is a relationship/commitment in order to feel ok about having sex, but setting her up for disappointment once the curtains are drawn.
The problem is that sex is much more fleeting and quick as opposed to a relationship, so women give men the upper hand in that aspect right off the bat. Women have 'control' over the occurrence of something that will last 15 minutes, men has 'control' over the occurrence of something that is supposed to last for years. This is why we see this drastic imbalance, and why so many women here express this ever present feeling of helplessness. Why wouldn't they? The part of the interactions they feel they control is quite literally equivalent to 15 minutes of fame!
I for one, do not believe that sex is naturally something any more meaningful to women than it is men. I think this is a lie that has been perpetuated by society for centuries in order to keep women under thumb and easily hurt and manipulated by men. The idea that we must consider any man we find sexually attractive boyfriend material is wrought with problems. Many women find themselves trying to forge relationships with complete assholes they are sexually attracted to but whom, if they were taught its ok to separate the two things, wouldn't even spit on if they were on fire in terms of a relationship because their personalities and sense of entitlement are so bad. Yet somehow these women find themselves begging HIM to waste years of their own romantic lives with!
Just think about it. If some of you women engaged these men whom you must have been physically attracted to at some level, but kept it at ONLY that level, what amount of pain would you be feeling right now? By all intents and purposes, the descriptions of these men's job prospects, habits, and even personalities have been pretty wretched, or at the very most nothing to write home about. But instead of doing what would be smart, which would be to 'value' him for what he was worth and nothing more, we often see all these seemingly intelligent women desperately trying to create something more with losers. Why? Not every man you find attractive or realize can provide you decent company in the time being until you find the right guy deserves your emotions.
But women aren't told this. The only defense women are given is to get rid of the guy if he's not a long term prospect. Problem is, this only serves to make the woman lonely and set her up for either more desperation to cure that loneliness, or depression, since being alone is not ideal for humans. There is essentially no in between advised for women, and it really keeps us under foot.
Sorry for my rambling, but this has been a theory of mine for awhile. And reading the posts from the women here really got me to start imagining the BS women could forgo if we approached sex, love, and relationships this way. It would be hard for older women I know, but imagine the heartache this approach could save younger women?
Mymble says:
If you can do casual sex and be okay with keeping it on a physical level, then that's fine for you. Personally men who are merely physically attractive are of no interest to me in any sense. For me it is the "whole package" mind and body. Good sex isn't usually instant, it gets better over time as you get to know someone, and i don't want to invest that amount of energy in someone who doesn't interest me.
The MM I was foolish enough to fall for
was good-looking, but was also amusing, interesting, smart and – I thought – caring.
As an older woman, it isnt difficult to get sex, if that's all you want. But the thought of a lot of meaningless bedhopping is depressing. I did some of that when I was younger. I can't change the past so regrets are pointless but I feel now that my time could have been better spent on other things.
For me – if you like them, you want a relationship; and if I don't like them, why would I bother? Sex takes place between the ears, not below the waist!-
Mymble says:
I would add that men too get hurt sometimes when they want more than just the sex. Perhaps they don't blog about it here so much but it happens – I've had "casual" situations where the guy fell in love with me. The trouble with casual is that there is usually a driver, (who may engage in misleading, deceptive behaviour-future faking) and a passenger who is hoping for more.
sushi says:
I presume from your post that you would like a mutual relationship and I understand where you are coming from, but I don`t agree.
If what you truly want is a mutual, real relationship and you engage in casual ones to fill the time till you find THE one you just end up lowering your own expectations to start with, and by doing so you do end up accepting crumbs, even though you claim that is what you are trying to avoid.I think you might be also underestimating the fact, that if a real relationship is what you want you are in danger of developing feelings for your casual partners anyway, it`s human. I think that your theory is dependant on being able to switch into EU and EA mode at will and that just doesn`t sound healthy, not to mention authentic. That is what many people on here describe with " why was he such an AC with me and now he is in a commited relationship with someone else" What would you be saying to the people you are in those transitional relationships with? Would you be clear to all involved that all you want is casual? Would you spend time with them, get to know them ect? It would have to be so controlled, otherwise human instinct will come into play and someone might involve their emotions. As for loneliness….it`s just more straightforward to have friends and have a full life rather than be dependant on a man to provide you with your life. As for the younger and older women bit- I`m in the older category…but you would be amazed how fast the time flies. -
Teddie says:
I think such a casual attitude towards sex is the fuel that drives this epidemic expansion od AC-ry. There's never been a greater abundance of sex, if this is what one wants. In fact, these are golden times for men, it's never been easier for them to get their supply of sex, considering that many women practically throw it at them. Do you really think this is a way to female empowerment?
yoghurt says:
I'll be honest, I don't think that that's a radical viewpoint. In fact it's a viewpoint that I've been hearing on a very regular basis since adolescence. Women shouldn't confuse sex and love. Women should be able to engage in casual sex without any kind of emotional engagement. Sex doesn't mean love. Men use women so women should use men. Etc etc. And I tried living by it for a long time, told myself off if I did develop any feelings of attachment, or worthlessness, or whatever else. I ended up in a mess.
Fundamentally, I think, I disagree with you on this:
"I for one, do not believe that sex is naturally something any more meaningful to women than it is men. I think this is a lie that has been perpetuated by society for centuries in order to keep women under thumb and easily hurt and manipulated by men."I'm not enough of a scientist to be able to deliver a conclusive lecture on oxytocin and bonding hormones and the like, but I HAVE discovered that the following are true, through bitter experience:
a) Sex leads to pregnancy. Less so now than in the days before there was effective contraception (although that isn't failproof, as I found out). Ergo, any woman who has sex with a man is effectively risking a massive change in the course of her entire life, and if he isn't going to be supportive then (believe me) it's likely to be a difficult change, whichever course of action she chooses.
b) Sex generally involves showing yourself to someone in a state of abandonment, not to mention your cellulite. It is a deeply personal experience, and I tend to think that rejection afterwards is also likely to feel deeply personal.And I'm not even going to go into STDs, cultural mores, physical vulnerability or the 'symbolism of penetration', mostly because it'd make this way too long.
Either way, it stands to reason for me that sex is going to have an emotional impact, purely on the basis of the nature of it, if nothing else. Seems pretty logical to me.
I spent years and years and years thinking that there was something wrong with me because I couldn't not take it personally when a bloke shagged me and blew me off, or shagged me and then laughed about it with his mates, or shagged me, got me pregnant and then carried on messing me around. I honestly genuinely believed that there was something inherently wrong with my emotional make-up because I wasn't being a Cosmo woman about it.
Nowadays, I think that the emotional impact of sex is rather wonderful – one day, when I meet a good caring man it'll be wonderful and I'll be sincerely glad of it, so I'm not going to attempt to suppress it in the meantime for the sake of a quick rattle with some loser. Celibacy in the meantime isn't what I'd choose but it's not the end of the world and it's CERTAINLY not the massive deprivation and annihilation of my human rights that some people believe it to be.
yoghurt says:
Sorry – to clarify…
If you're happy having no-strings sex and you feel no emotional impact then go for it.
However, I think that it would be disastrous if that rule was applied to everyone and I know this because to an extent it is applied to everyone and it was disastrous for me.
Your emotional response to anything is your emotional response. Obviously there are sensible and not-sensible ways of dealing with it and it isn't always advisable to act on your emotions, but tbh how you feel and how you initially react to anything isn't something that you should seek to change. Your emotions are there for a reason.
Imo, it's perfectly logical (although not obligatory!) to have an emotional response to sex and I get a bit tired of hearing people describe this as a culturally-devised and inconvenient piece of freakishness.
yoghurt says:
Wow – Rant-o-matic!
Sorry, letsdoitagain, I think that one's been building up for a while!
Sadder but Wiser says:
Yoghurt, I'm with you. I've had some thoughts of this very subject recently that I wanted to share, because I think Cosmo era young women have been sold a bill of goods. This is just my opinion and I know that I certainly don't speak for everyone. But I think there are some valid points to consider.
It's no mystery to me why most women cannot handle casual sex. It's not casual at all.
Sex is a powerful experience, with profound psychic, spiritual and emotional dimensions. It is NOT on par with other fun recreational activities such as "well, we can go to a movie or go bike riding or go have sex." It is a serious activity that can result in creating another life. It is an activity that is meant to bond people at the deepest emotional level. It is an activity that I think for women involves allowing another to see us at our most unguarded and exposed state.Think about it. Women don't show their genital area to other women (except for doctors – even that can be uncomfortable). I can't remember the last time any other woman saw me naked. We're very private about this. Men let it all hang out at public urinals, they don't care who sees what. It doesn't bother them, because that is not where their privacy lies. For a woman, the act of sex is generally deeply personal and deeply intimate. She is allowing another person to actually enter her body in a place that is enormously private. The amount of trust and vulnerability needed to do this can be huge. It is an "allowing" and an opening into not just her body but her Being itself. She is letting down all the barriers. When men open themselves and are unguarded and let down their barriers, I think the vulnerable opening for them is an emotional, not physical one. This really is a huge difference, which can't be underestimated. I think this is why some men can have sex and it doesn't touch their heart or their emotions. This is where women can get terribly hurt, because "how could we have both shared the same experience and it doesn't mean anything to you????"
This modern Cosmo world has done some wonderful things for women – but there is a dark side too. To turn sex into just a pleasurable frolic is to trivialize it. And when some women feel guilty that they can't "get with the program," because sex engages their feelings after all (surprise!) that's a tragedy.
Just my two cents…
LetsDoItAgain says:
In short, it sounds strange to say, but a lot of women need to temper their expectations in relationships with men. Not in the way of lowering yourself in the way you want to be treated by them, but simply not expecting a person you've known for all of 3 months (hell sometimes for all of 3 weeks or days), has the characteristics of a person you'd want to spend the rest of your life with.
Whether the women here want to accept it or not, a great deal of having that outlook will probably come with not viewing sex as some inner window to your soul and a reflection of you as a whole person, to the point where you are clinically depressed if you have it with a guy and wedding bells are not the result. Side note: Honestly it still surprises me that so many women view their vagina as a reflection of their self worth. Perhaps men are seeing you and treating you exactly as you see yourself if that is the case. If you consider one of the most important things about you to be the flesh between your legs, well…
Anyway thanks to all the ladies who responded and gave their thoughts on my theory. Again, I admit my its a little radical for this crowd considering our difference in age, but its definitely a theory I pray more women look into as they raise their daughters.
Look forward to hearing more responses if you have them
Mymble says:
You arelooking for comments, and the somewhat offensive way some of yor opinions are couched make me wonder if you are not actually a troll, and a man. Referring to your vagina as a piece of flesh suggests somone who doesnt have one themselves, and who dislikes those who do.
However, assuming you are genuine I would pick up on one or two things you said.
Firstly, you referto science that "proves" that women don't really have feelings for those they sleep with and that have merely been condtioned to believe thy do. Where is this science? Can you direct me to any such research at proves any such thing? My understanding is that science is now coming to the conclusion that our minds, bodies and emotions are inextricably linked, and that what is going on in one ofthose areas will affect the others. To imagine tha you can treat your body as something separate and "other" than yourself is a misconception. For example, we all know we can be grumpy and say things we don't mean when we are hungry. Even knowing this doesn't prevent these emotions. Your mind isn't separate from your body, it i physical entity located in your physical brain. Sex is making yourself vulnerable, in every way, physically and emotionally. That in't an opinion, it is a fact.The risks of extrme consequences – of rape, assault, STD's, pregnancy are all there and our emotional responses are there to protect us from harm, to ensure that we don't put our trust in men who do not have our best interests at heart.
Secondly, you mention your marriage. You are right, it doesn't make you an authority. Unfortunately it is all to easy for two ninnies to march up the aisle, been there and done that myself. The ink is barely dry on your certificate. You can come back in 50 years and tell us how you got on with the challenges of children, bereavement, illness, redundancy and other hardships. If you survive all that and are still happily wed, then that may make you an authority.
You mention that your husband chased you. Do you think that proves something aboutyou? Do you think that because a man pursues, it must mean you are healthy emotionally, and desireable? Do you find it validating? That seems alittle traditional for someone so keen to overthrow the status quo. Some men chase women like dogs chase cars; as soon as the car stops, and they "catch" it, they run off and chase another. Because it is all about them and their desire to chase, not about the desirability of the car. Many of us, myself included were chased hard and and hot by the ACs we got involved with. It says absolutely zilch about you. Why did you refuse him first time round? Were you enjoying the chase dynamic so much that you wanted to prolong it? Did it validate you? That would indicate a lack of self worth and self esteem, and an imbalanced relationship.
Finally, it has been said by others, but your ideas are a load of old crock that was being peddled around in my mothers generation in the 60′s. She laughs about how men used it as a way to get a quick shag without commitment or even respectful behaviour. After all, you didn't want to be accused of being uptight, clingy, or oldfashioned. (Which is the accusation you are bandying around). What women found, then as now, is that falling for that line is a short cut to getting shat upon.
Again, this makes me think you must be a man who is getting pissy with women with all their unreasonable demands and "expectations".-
LetsDoItAgain says:
"You arelooking for comments, and the somewhat offensive way some of yor opinions are couched make me wonder if you are not actually a troll, and a man. Referring to your vagina as a piece of flesh suggests somone who doesnt have one themselves, and who dislikes those who do."
I'm not a man and I'm not troll. And yes it is a piece of flesh. As are many other parts of my body and yours. It is valuable to me, but it is not the greatest part of me, nor do I believe what I do with it is any automatic statement about who I am as a person or my character, both of which I find to be much more important than the happenings of my vagina.
"My understanding is that science is now coming to the conclusion that our minds, bodies and emotions are inextricably linked, and that what is going on in one ofthose areas will affect the others."
No, science isn't doing that. I can tell you because I work in the field. But you are creating a straw man argument I never set up anyway. Your mind, body, and emotions being connected is not the same as developing feelings and attaching yourself to someone after knowing them for very little time. Many women do this, and almost all of them end up heartbroken for it. I am advocating against that. Women approaching every interaction with men with hopes of a long term endeavor is harmful and renders them easy prey to abusers. This is my belief, period. Hearing the stories of my friends as well as surveys and research reinforce my belief. But of course, I never said it had to be yours, I just shared.
"To imagine tha you can treat your body as something separate and "other" than yourself is a misconception. For example, we all know we can be grumpy and say things we don't mean when we are hungry. Even knowing this doesn't prevent these emotions. Your mind isn't separate from your body, it i physical entity located in your physical brain. Sex is making yourself vulnerable, in every way, physically and emotionally. That in't an opinion, it is a fact.The risks of extrme consequences – of rape, assault, STD's, pregnancy are all there and our emotional responses are there to protect us from harm, to ensure that we don't put our trust in men who do not have our best interests at heart."
You are not an animal any more than the ACs who try to excuse themselves of their sociopathic behavior by claiming momentitis. You have a choice to not engage or to temper your emotions. You have a choice to change your thinking to guard yourself and you have a choice to change your approach so as to not be easy prey.The reason I originally focused on sex is simply because most women are not going to be fully able to (or even want to) completely give up sexual intercourse or swear off any intimate communication with the opposite sex until they find the man who is willing to propose. Therefore, I am advising that if a woman is going to engage, she will save herself a lot of heartache by not looking at the action as the Holy Grail, key to her soul that she has been taught it is. That way if it doesn't end with her walking down the aisle, she is not destroyed because she thinks she gave "her whole self" away by engaging. I likened it to the argument of people who promote abstinence vs people who promote condom usage. Both want the same thing, safety, but one is just a little more sensitive to the current realities of the world, and bases their approach on that. Finally, I only brought up my own personal situation so as to share my experience the same way every other woman has, and provide more reasoning as to why I think the theory is valid (because of how it has positively effected my life thus far).
And no, none of what you said is fact. While your mind is not separate from your body and your emotions are a part of your make up (no scientist would argue otherwise, and I myself have not even hinted to) you are in control of yourself. Your example is not a good one, because it is entirely possible to stop yourself from saying cruel things when you are hungry. Especially if you know full well that, for instance, the person whom you might say the cruel things to could smack you and scar you with a pain that lasts for months, even years.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post, because it is clear that your emotions have gotten the best of you. I never once attacked any woman on here, and I am not going to counteract you offenses and begin to now. In addition, I never denied the possibility of anyone else's viewpoint, I simply presented new ones that I've drawn from my life, the work I do every day, the woman around me and the stories of the women on here, and hypotheses that are currently being researched.
But since you seem to have such a resistance to the plausibility of something that has been proven over a century ago in regards to conditioning, I'll leave you with one word: Pavlov. Or any studies done on classical conditioning. If a so-called natural, "reflexive" response can be elicited in weeks of work, what more can years of socialization before puberty and all day every day thereafter do? Something to think about. You are more in control than you know.
yoghurt says:
I apologise – I know that I said that I wouldn't reply again but I do feel that it's important to address two of the misconceptions and assumptions in your post.
If you're puzzled as to the number of rather irritable responses, here's one reason – the idea that ALL women (apart from yourgoodself of course) are slathering after men, rolling at their feet and blindly accepting the idea that, because most people have husbands, they should too.
I have NEVER (even in my darkest days) 'approached all interactions with men with hopes of a long-term endeavour' – quite the opposite, in fact. Your assumption that we're all in 'this mess' because of some subconscious Pavlovian response to centuries of social conditioning and not as a direct consequence of a) our choices and b) other people's (sometimes nefarious) actions indicates that you don't have a great insight into the behavioural patterns addressed on this site.
It also, I'm sorry to say, implies that you are something of a modern miracle, given that you and only you have been intelligent enough to recognise and break free from this subliminal conditioning. The rest of us are just sitting there and scratching our fleas, of course.
"The reason I originally focused on sex is simply because most women are not going to be fully able to (or even want to) completely give up sexual intercourse or swear off any intimate communication with the opposite sex until they find the man who is willing to propose."
Why not? Last time I looked, all of us were rational and able to control our actions and our choices – the ability to do so is imo one of our greatest gifts. And embracing that ability to choose is incredibly empowering. This is why I dislike it when I read the suggestion that we somehow CAN'T embrace it and aren't fully in control of ourselves.
Choosing not to engage sexually with someone who ISN'T going to respect the fact that you are going to essentially put yourself in a vulnerable position for them (a factor that you haven't yet addressed btw), not to mention gifting them of your precious time and attention seems sensible to me. I'm not saying that a proposal should be the goal, but surely a degree of commitment is sensible?
Fwiw, I do agree with you that having had sex with someone is no reason to stick with them through appalling behaviour. However, I disagree with you that the way to address this tendency is to work to suppress and deny what are, to my mind, perfectly natural reactions, even if they do only arise from the logistical implications of the act (ie a sense of trust, a willingness to place oneself in a vulnerable position etc). To my mind, the way to address that tendency is to accept that it exists and modify behaviour accordingly.
The idea that you should modify your emotional response before you modify your behaviour is, I think, unrealistic, dangerous and essentially denies folk the right to their own sense of judgement. That's what I find worrying about your posts.
yoghurt says:
AND (would you believe there's more?)…
…the fact that you're writing off people's emotional reactions as some sort of Pavlovian brain-washing doesn't show a great deal of respect for their ability to assess and judge whether or not a situation is right for THEM.
As the inability to do this is one of the main reasons why so many people on this site have fallen prey to sexual and emotional predators, this is also unlikely to go down well.
Mymble says:
Yeah. I was thinking that it was exactly this thinking that kept me in a bad situation instead of getting out, and it made it much worse for me. I thought, "Well it probably isn't going to lead to a proper LTR but I like him sooo much, and enjoy his company, that I can just enjoy it for what it is, and don't allow myself to get upset."
If only there were an on/off switch for your emotions, how easy it would be.
This never happened to me when I was younger and I was thinking about why that was. The only thing that was different was that I was much less in control of my fiery temper. If the man wasnt treating me well then there would very soon have bern an explosion and they would be running for their lives! It wasn't really better self-esteem or insight. But it did mean that bad "relationshits" didn't drag on.
The better self control I have now is good in so many ways, as a parent
and an employee, but unfortunately it did allow me to remain for far too long in something wrong and unhealthy and consequently the damage was more severe.
Mymble says:
I expect everyone else is getting tired of this…
So this is the last I'll say.
If Pavlov is the best you can come up with, that's pretty lame. As far as i know he did no work on human sexual behaviour. There are some emotional responses that are innate, e.g. attachment to children and parents, grief on bereavement etc, and Pavlov's work on salivating dogs doesn't prove anything one way or the other. You are indeed entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but don't dress it up as science when you cannot substantiate it.
I agree that behaviour can be controlled; and i would say that is what this site is about. Emotions not so much. The answer, for most of us, is to avoid the bahaviours that produce the emotions, rather than trying to suppress the emotions. i.e. avoid the sex until you can trust the man.
You presented your own courtship and marriage as evidence of how and why your theory "worked". If you do that you must expect people to pass comment. My point was simply that being chased by a man /married a short time says nothing much of and by itself. Maybe your relationship is great and will stand up to the rigours of life, I don't know. But persistent "chasing" is a behaviour in men that rings alarm bells, for me.
And finally – I love my vagina, and I intend to treat it with more respect in future, not less! No more random guys there, thankyou very much. Others can do what they like with theirs.
yoghurt says:
Your reference to medical science fails to prove anything, unless you can find a woman (anywhere in the world, ever) who says "Yes, I destroyed my emotional health and wellbeing over a man because I read a scientific study that said that I should because of oxytocin".
"Honestly it still surprises me that so many women view their vagina as a reflection of their self worth. Perhaps men are seeing you and treating you exactly as you see yourself if that is the case. If you consider one of the most important things about you to be the flesh between your legs, well…"
Pardon? I don't consider my vagina a reflection of my self-worth, thanks. I consider my privacy, safety, life choices and health to be fairly essential to its maintainance though. That's why I don't sleep with strange men.
I'll say it again, this is not a radical viewpoint. You are essentially suggesting that we should allow men an easy ride (pun intended) and simultaneously stop holding them accountable for any of their rubbish behaviour. Wow! That's a fantastic way of preventing patriarchal exploitation of women… oh wait, hang on…
I'm not appalled, by the way, I just think that your argument is rather silly and that you don't seem to know or understand a great deal about the people that you're talking to, their viewpoints or their experiences. Consequently you come across as rather patronising and unaware, I'm afraid.
I'm mindful that this isn't a forum and that this is rather a tangent from the blog post, so thanks to Natalie if you publish it but I won't be replying again. You haven't said anything to change my mind on this one though, I'm afraid.
Revolution says:
I totally agree, Sadder. Well said. Cosmo is only fit for one function, in my opinion. Well…maybe not even that, as those glossy pages may cause chafing on the derriere.
LetsDoItAgain says:
I'm glad you brought up science, because its misinformation that fuels a lot of the seeming "appall" towards my comment. Oxycotin is also released in large doses by men during and after sex. In addition, prolactin, the so-called detachment hormone is released in great number after sex in women, yet it is never spoken about. There is a reason for this. It might be hard for you to believe, but as science begins to turn the page on finally researching women's sexuality and biological make up, its showing there are other things at play affecting these things originally thought to be natural responses.
And honestly, if you subscribe to sexual science as it is laid out throughout history, you should have no wonder or any qualms with the way you've been 'shagged and blown off', you should expect it. Because science indeed has gone out of its way to protect and promote male promiscuity and deny women the same sexual consideration, if not ignore our hormones completely.
I am not saying that everybody should go around screwing everyone willy nilly, there is obviously the threat of STDs and pregnancy, but the mere fact that women approach every interaction with every male as a potential long term commitment IS problematic. Decry against it as you like, but your own heartbroken experiences merely highlight this fact. A lot of women simply go into interactions with expectations they have no business having. Just for the sake and hope of obtaining a relationship. My point is that knowing this left me asking why a relationship is even treated as the ultimate goal in the first place at every stage in our lives, and how this happens.
My answer is society. All these reasonable and intelligent women aren't chasing after losers begging them for commitment because of hormones or whatever your old science books taught you. Its because even they can't escape the constant pressure that having a man committed to you validates you like nothing else can. This is what keeps you under thumb, believe it or not.
And I will say just for the record, and not to be snooty because I don't think it makes me better or even more knowledgeable than anyone here, but I am married. I'm not saying it makes my advice more valid, but I just wanted to share my own personal experience as other women have. I did not find my husband by expecting something, anything, everything out of every interaction I had with men. I was only heartbroken once and it was the very FIRST TIME I had sex. In all my dealings with men I knew my worth and it reflected in my interactions with them. In the end, my husband chased ME and it was not until the second time that he proposed that I accepted and we got hitched last year.
There is something about having confidence, knowing you have other options and not being afraid to let your mate know or let him go/downgrade him that attracts mates for men and women. They will know they have something and will want to lock you down more than if you are sniveling behind them giving them total control over your emotions. My point is that the key to having the attitude mentioned above comes with not having such a deterministic outlook on all of your relationships, and approaching them more from a lax perspective.
P. says:
Mymble and Yoghurt above have already answered your repetitive posts, LDIA. Yes, what you call "science" or "radical" is a bunch of chewed up stuff from the 60s, nothing new. If you are looking for something actually new, try Naomi Wolf: Vagina: A Biography, which is well-researched and supported by actual new scientific research. Otherwise, as Mymble said, if you do not have arguments to illustrate what you said, there is really no discussion to be had here. I was going to say something rude,but won't.
P.S. If a student submitted an essay like this (and they do say these exact words: "My answer is society," as you said,) I would recommend further reading.
P.P.S. It is true there is a hook-up culture on university campuses, but most students are not very happy with it, and some of them are male.-
LetsDoItAgain says:
Yes, I am familiar with this book. I read it already. I'll spare you my personal critiques on it and just say it does not have anything to do with what I'm speaking about unfortunately. And if held to test, it would oppose far more than it agrees.
And yes, again, the answer is indeed society. We give little girls little ovens and life sized baby dolls to take care of when they are babies themselves, and by the time they are in middle school they are searching for "love" and giving boys whom are told nothing even similar, if not completely opposite, control over their emotions. Rinse and repeat for 15 years, and in some women's cases, far more. Men, knowing the goal in mind, can sit back and pull the strings, selling women whatever dreams necessary to get what they want and still stay in control even through horrible treatment just because he knows like she knows, she wants the relationship
bad.You don't think changing this type of thinking and the priorities of little girl's would be a teeny bit helpful in preventing some of the issues discussed on this blog?
P. says:
I am quite familiar with feminist theories on patriarchy etc., even though I am not a feminist theorist per se. I do not see anything that I said that changing people's thinking would be not desirable; to the contrary I have been arguing macro-structutralist perspectives here before.
I have not finished Wolf's book for various reasons, but it seemed well researched and innovative. Yes, it absolutely has to do with the discussion here.
I do know about socialization into gender roles, and I teach about it, but this is not the place to debate it.
Where I do have an issue is that you generalize and assume without knowing, for example I have not been brought up in this country and the concept of easy bake oven meant nothing for me. My toys were not gendered for the most part, and in my family women had more professional jobs, on average, than men. I might be an outlier or an anecdotal case, but that does not absolve you of not considering such cases given that women from many countries contribute here, especially if you are a scientist.
I also consider it condescending to assume that older women (what does that mean older, anyway?) are not familiar with knowledge or science you are familiar with, because, well, who do you think wrote your textbooks and who publishes in those journals? Some are younger and some are older. It is difficult to argue when you are mixing emotions and family socialization (micro) with "society" (macro) as they are connected and contingent in ways we cannot cover here. The "nurture" theory that you seem to support has its place, but, alas, essentializing the behavior of a specific self-selected sample of women on a blog site will not move your argument forward. Further, I do not believe most or majority of women on this site have the attitude you describe, and you got responses more eloquent than mine that show that. Has it crossed your mind that maybe the issues we write about are a reduction of what life is for us, even though they could be put into forefront at times. I am glad you are enthusiastic about gender equality, and, believe me, we "get" you, it's just not what we are discussing here. Many, many have posted about casual sex and being OK with it, but, again, this is not the topic here… BTW, many "older" women I know are a lot more "radical" than women generations younger, but, again, that is not the point.
Revolution says:
Hello Letsdoitagain,
Thank you for your comments. I can appreciate your thoughts, even while having a varied opinion on most of them. Still, you've expressed yourself respectfully, and that gets you points in my playbook.
Having said that, the one thing in particular that I want to comment on is this: Something that strikes me in your comments is the sense(backed by your outright statement, in at least one case)that you are looking at the male/female dynamic from the standpoint of control, or trade, rather than of love. Love means two people coming together to merge and have true (emotional, not just physical) intimacy because they BOTH want to, and from clear (and not pistol-whipped) motivations. Maybe my statement sounds naive to you, but this is how I view a healthy "as-meant" love relationship between a man and a woman. By contrast, it seems that you're approaching it from the perspective of a vigilante trying to spy out the enemy camp so as to have some sort of advantage over them. To have them "under your thumb," or at least do your damndest not to BE the one under thumb. While there is something to that viewpoint (and the ladies of BR can attest to my refusal to be an "under-thumb-dweller"), I don't think that that is the same as seeking to forge a love relationship with someone. Here's the simple difference: Love seeks to merge. Power plays seek to dominate, whether from the perspective of wanting control over another or from not wanting to be the one on the bottom. This perspective, though, does the opposite of merging. It creates struggle and separation.
I think the problem, maybe, in this (mis?)communication between the other commenters and yourself is a matter of definitions. It's possible that you are speaking of a very different "goal" than they are: you are viewing love, not as a way to pursue peace and (healthy) compromise and merge with another human (mentally, emotionally, physically). Instead, you view it as keeping the status quo (the ace up your sleeve) so as to have the "power" in the relationship.
Love and power are two very, very different things. And they are nervous bed buddies.
So what does think, Letsdoitagain? Do I have your perspective right or am I totally off base?
Revolution says:
I also wanted to mention, in case you draw me into a discussion about "generations," that I am a 35-year old woman. So if anyone here "should" be touting a sexual free-for-all sans emotion, then (demographically), it would be me. But I'm not.
I say this because in one of your comments, you referred to perhaps a difference in age from most BR women. I'm not sure you mentioned how old you are (I may have missed it), but I really don't think this is a matter of age or generation at all. Anyway, that's my two cents. Please take them in the manner they were given: respecfully and with peaceful intentions.
Mymble says:
Two references actually to the "older women" one to the effect that this "radical new approach" would be harder on the older women. (not clear exactly what was meant by that, as you said it doesn't really seem to me to be a generational issue) and secondly to the fact that older women might find it difficult to understand this
radical new concept.-
LetsDoItAgain says:
I never said a thing about it being hard for older women to understand, merely harder for them to adjust. If you've lived your life a certain way for a number of years well into your adulthood, its not exactly the easiest thing in the world to basically about face on. I was merely considering that.Of course you can say that there's no generational issue whatsoever, but the references to Cosmo I've already seen and what its supposedly telling the younger generation of women to do make me want to beg to differ.
LetsDoItAgain says:
Thank you so much for your respectful response! I didn't know I was going to get so much hate for saying what I did, but I'm glad at least one person did not take it as some personal affront to them or their viewpoints (because that is never what I intended).
"Something that strikes me in your comments is the sense(backed by your outright statement, in at least one case)that you are looking at the male/female dynamic from the standpoint of control, or trade, rather than of love. Love means two people coming together to merge and have true (emotional, not just physical) intimacy because they BOTH want to, and from clear (and not pistol-whipped) motivations. Maybe my statement sounds naive to you, but this is how I view a healthy "as-meant" love relationship between a man and a woman."I can see how you might read it that way, and in ways I agree. That kind of is my viewpoint. But the caveat to that is: I do not see that it needs to be this way for the entire relationship!! I am merely talking about the starting point, which is the point where I think the majority of women invest way too much, then don't want to leave a horse they already bet so much on (prematurely) instead of looking at it from the standpoint of a sunk cost.
Perhaps it comes off scientific and calculating (no surprise there, its my job) but I think its necessary. Your comment does not sound naïve to me, it sounds ideal, I would love if things could be that way. The problem is that you are only one side of the equation in a relationship. If by all intents and purposes the other person whom is supposed to complete the equation is looking at it from the opposite end of the spectrum, don't you feel you need to do something to at least protect yourself from hurt?
" It's possible that you are speaking of a very different "goal" than they are: you are viewing love, not as a way to pursue peace and (healthy) compromise and merge with another human (mentally, emotionally, physically). Instead, you view it as keeping the status quo (the ace up your sleeve) so as to have the "power" in the relationship."
No, not even close. I am very much in love with my husband and he I. It's not about power, because power struggles are exhausting and I see no reason why I'd sign up for one for the rest of my life. The "goal" I am referring to is just the same as the one you claim the other commenters and yourself want. The difference is the execution. I do not believe that you can go into a situation with your nose wide open thinking of love, peace, and compromise with a person you've never even had that conversation with before. Or been with for more than a couple of months to observe them and their behavior without some forced attachment clouding your judgment of their characteristics.
I know that with that last sentence some commenters will rush in to tell me how thoroughly they vetted their AC and he still turned out to be one so my approach doesn't work. I won't argue with anyone's experience. But I will say in 90% of the one's I've observed, especially when the female ends up devastated by just how short of the end of the stick she got, she attached too fast, went in with too lofty of expectations of the relationship, and got burned by a guy who manipulated those emotions she really had no business having in the first place.
If you know how big of a risk is there, why do you resist making yourself less susceptible to it in favor of idealism?
It seems many women are advocating to approach relationships from an idealistic, if the world was perfect standpoint. I just can't get with that, but perhaps I'm being too solutions oriented? I mean, it doesn't seem that society is in any rush to put pressure on men to not find masculinity in using and discarding women, so methinks its up to women to change their outlook so as to not get burned. I do not realistically see women as a whole just up and stopping having sex , since it's not like we only do it for men, so the next step would be to modify the way we approach intimate (see: not just physical) interactions with them.
runnergirl says:
Totally loved this thread. Thank you Natalie for allowing the comments and thank you all for commenting. Lots and lots of good stuff here. I'm paying close attention to my tells and paying close attention to his tells too. It's going to be a while before I use the "r" word (certainly more than a month) and a bit longer before I have sex (way longer than a month!). Nicely done ladies.
Revolution says:
Thank you for the clarification of your thoughts. I 100% understand your position, though I still disagree that casual sex can be engaged in without repercussion. There are too many women in a heap at the bottom of that slippery slope to say otherwise. I DO, however, agree with you that women need to protect themselves and their self-respect by not engaging in a sexual relationship with the thinking that it is a definite precursor to commitment. My answer to this, though, is radically different than yours. I, personally, choose to forgo the sexual experience until I'm in a committed relationship because I (and most women I know) cannot engage in sex without being effected emotionally and psychologically. If you or anyone else here can, then mazel tov.
This is the last comment I'll make in this thread. I feel, in my periphery, Natalie about to say to all of us, "Don't MAKE me stop this car!" because we're wildly off-topic. Natalie, thanks for your patience. I'm done and dusted.
dancingqueen says:
"By contrast, it seems that you're approaching it from the perspective of a vigilante trying to spy out the enemy camp so as to have some sort of advantage over them."
well said and fanned:)
runnergirl says:
You crack me up Grace. You are on BR. The best site ever and it just keeps getting better!
dancingqueen says:
"And I will say just for the record, and not to be snooty because I don't think it makes me better or even more knowledgeable than anyone here, but I am married. I'm not saying it makes my advice more valid"
erm uh yes you are saying that lol! And you are right, it doesn't make you better. In fact, it makes me wonder… Look, you are obviously not that happy in your relationship if you have so much time to complain on here about not getting your "enlightened" point across.
Letsdoitagain, your own straw man argument is that somehow you are dealing with all these "older" and unmarried ladies, well no offense but maybe some of us are a bit more mature, not just age-wise but emotionally.
How you live your life is your business but for those of us, myself included, who tried to detach our emotions from sex at *your age* and were failures at it, I love being picky now. I have not slept with one man in years that I have not been in a full on relationship with and I can tell you for a fact that that beats that slutty, confused time in my 20′s when I acted as you advocated; sorry, way too picky now to change and no I have zero interest in being what you think a woman needs to be to bag a man.
Whatever. Really, if you are so happy why try so hard to force your ideas on others? Why not just accept that some women are happier having standards and not getting laid, than lowering their standards and getting laid, and also btw, actually I can pretty much go without sex for a while till I meet someone. It doesn't bother me at all; I miss great conversation with a smart, sexy man actually more than I miss sex.-
Freya says:
I like you LetsDoItAgain. You are a woman after my own heart. I have had lots of sex with men I did not love, and knew I was never going to love them. I have had lots of sex and not gotten attached in any way to the man I did it with.
I am living proof that women can separate their sexual urges and desires from their emotions.
The greatest emotional bonds I have had with men were not formed in the bedroom at all. In fact, we bonded over conversation and we bonded over being there for each other in times of need. Nothing to do with sex at all.
I for one despise that I keep being told that having sex with someone I don't love makes me slutty, or that I should feel like a victim, or disrespected, or "bad". I also don't like being told that I should want a relationship BECAUSE I had sex with someone. I resent, even, being told that I should want a relationship at all! I know what I want and I know how to get it. How does that make me wrong?
Before anyone starts getting in an uproar over what sounds like casual sex let me assure you = I do not think sex is casual at all. Its a gift, beautiful and magical. Unless its done with the wrong person. Then its kind of boring.
Thank you LetsDoItAgain for validating my position. I feel 100% better about being me. I will never again let someone else tell me that I am victim.
Mymble says:
Hi Freya
I too have done the sex with men I don't care about, and yep it is boring, and unsatisfying, so I don't do it any more. Why bother?Sorry to hear that you have been called slutty and a
victim. That's appalling. I am wondering who would say such things, was it the men you slept with, friends or acquaintances? -
Sadder but Wiser says:
This is a fascinating thread! Thanks Natalie for allowing it. Freya, I actually get what you're saying and I even envy the ability to have a positive sexual experience without having the "relationship" tagged on. This is the viewpoint I had when I decided to have sex with a man I didn't know very well but we worked together, I was comfortable with him, and had a developed a crush on him that morphed into an incredible passion. I was thrilled I felt anything after being in the desert for many years. I remember the conversation I had with myself: I'm in my 50s for heaven's sake! I'm a modern woman, aren't I? I should be able to have a mature, enjoyable sexual experience, get some of my needs for affection met and not get all hung up emotionally about it, right? I have physical needs, right? Do I have to be celibate the rest of my life even if I never have a full-blown relationship again? Dammit, I want this and I'm going to have it!
Ah yes… but somehow that nasty emotional entanglement snuck in. That need for real, not pretend intimacy. I even wrote about this previously on BR, I made the mistake of trying to turn a wonderful sexual experience into a "relationship." My trying ruined all of it. I wish I could have done otherwise. I couldn't, partly I think for the reasons I wrote earlier on this thread.
yoghurt says:
Hiya Freya
"I am living proof that women can separate their sexual urges and desires from their emotions."If you can then go for it, and I'm sorry that you've been made to feel slutty, like a victim or 'bad'. I can't, but ftr I don't think that that makes me better or worse than you in any sense – or indeed more or less radical, uptight or intelligent.
I'm sure that it IS very annoying to be constantly boxed in by other people's viewpoints on your behaviour.
At the same time, though, I hope that you can see that for someone who can't/doesn't want to separate sex and emotion, it is equally tiresome to be constantly told that it's because you're prudish, a game-player, frigid, uptight, desperate, and oh by the way that's why men treat you badly so you should change yourself and your reactions.
I've gone to town a bit defending my personal decision to put boundaries on my sex life (and I apologise if I've made you feel bad about your viewpoint in doing so). But that's purely because, frankly, we've ALL come under enough pressure from EU men and the like to question our own judgements, reactions and emotions to disown our choices without needing to get it from other women as well. Or on here.
sushi says:
Can I just say something simple and unscientific here, LetsDoItAgain:
This site is about people (not just ones with vaginas) learning to get insight and self respect to avoid bad relationship and to enable them to function in good ones. Because they want good relationships. It`s not about changing or lowering their expectations to CASUAL. A healthy person will live by their values and will not switch what they want at will. You and the majority of people on this site obviouly want different things. This is why this discussion reminds me of pointless conversations with my ex AC. We can`t agree because we want different things.-
selkie says:
I agree and was thinking the same thing. I stand beside my values and respect people standing by theirs. But… there has been a tone of, 'here let me tell you how clueless you are for your own good' that I found lurking under the surface. I'm not clueless, so I just let it roll off. Who cares what someone else thinks, I'm not forced to agree. I just need to be sure of myself and my own choices. What works for me and what doesn't.
dancingqueen says:
Freya, no one is telling you you can't enjoy sex with as many people as you want. However, telling other women that they should divorce their emotions from sex and sleep around is pretty much as arrogant and disrespectful as calling someone a slut. And in my opinion, "slut" is not about how many people you sleep with, it is about your attitude. Slutty for me is when I was told, as a younger woman, by people like LDIA that something was wrong with me that I could not just have sex for "fun" and I proceeded to try to do that…with disastrous results. Some of us are different; is it that hard to understand here? Slutty is when women pretend to be okay with casual sex when they are not…if you are okay with it great, but then there is no need to go on about how other women,who are not, are repressed and also oddly add in some ageist comments for added absurdity. Who you sleep with is you business, who I don't sleep with is mine and no one has the right to lecture me on the path that I chose for myself, especially with some of the women on this blog, myself included, being more than educated enough to debate gender issues. I am not haul out my Judith Butler now but it is in my drawer somewhere…
FX says:
LDIA, I think there is a kernel of truth in your argument for SOME women, but your simplistic view and patronizing tone are not helpful even to those here for whom it may be food for thought. I am assuming you are fairly young to not see this? Also, why are you on this site if you are so enlightened that you have not allowed yourself to be compromised in a relationship and are happily married?
kayakerkathy says:
Mr. One Month just doesn't get it. Here is the email trail:
My response: "Tim,
I believe in taking things slow and getting to know someone, way before jumping into bed with them, rolling around on the couch with them and having them compliment my breasts, after only two dates. Yes, I went into your house, invited you into mine, and willingly messed around. I got caught up in the moment and take full responsibility for that. I am not blaming you for my lack of judgement. I understand your 'a guy', but there are some women out there who don't appreciate someone they barely know attempting to rush into something after one month. Yes, I'm an introvert and yes I've been hurt, that is life. Everyone has. But it hasn't kept me from living a life full of passion and getting to know people. I have lots of people in my life, from all walks of life. Being introverted does not mean being anti-social or someone who shuns human contact. Extroverted people get their energy from other people and social situations, introverted people get theirs from within, they need to recharge their batteries in occasional solitude. It does not mean introverts are hermits. This is what I mean by needing to take things slow and getting to know someone.
You told me that I was the one who needed to put on the brakes. That's what I did. Because it's what I believe in doing. I simply believe that sex is a sacred thing between two people, two people who know each other well and love each other, it's not an act to be taken lightly or casually. Telling me the first night you were over at my place that you were going to get some condoms to put in my bathroom for when "I'm ready" is not the way into my heart. Maybe for some women it is. It seems that no, it was never meant to be and that we simply have different values. As far as I'm concerned, we moved too fast. At the party you specifically told me you wanted casual, taking things slow and having fun, seeing where it goes. I was fine with that. Then barely two weeks go by, we'd been on only two dates and had barley seen each other, and you were telling me you had feelings for me. How is that possible? For me, feelings like this take a long time to grow. It doesn't happen overnight. Two people need to get to know one another before these feelings blossom, if they do at all. We didn't know anything about each other. It goes beyond the physical, at least it does for me. But, like I said, not all women are like me. You need to find someone that matches your values. I don't.
I wish you well in your search, and I do still want to be friends. You are a great guy, for the right girl. I'm sure we'll run into each other somewhere."
His response: " Hey I am sorry. I did not mean that you were not social and frigid. I know you are very active and social. I know you wanted to take things slow. I just thought we were father along then just having a couple dates. It felt like you just slammed on the brakes and came to a screacing halt just has we were getting up to speed. It hurt. I also believe sex is sacred and I did not mean for you to feel presseured into anything. I did not expect sex Friday. After not talking all week then briefly talking Thurs and your email saying you wanted to be single it felt like you did not want anything to do with me at all. I still not really sure what you want to be honest.
I would like to take back what I said about us not hanging out together just the two us, that was stupid. I would still like to go on a hike or go kayaking sometime. That is if you think you can keep your hands off of me JK
And I still would like to take you for a ride on the bike.
Please call me sometime! I hate this email crap. :)"
My response yet one more time: " "I wish you well in your search, and I do still want to be friends. You are a great guy, for the right girl." This is honest. I want to you continue looking for someone. I want to be single. I just don't want to date.
I apologize for hurting you, that was not my intention."
How do these guys not get the hint?? And how much more honest can I be?? Not one mention in his response about his actions towards me, not one mention about how different our values are, and if he REALLY thought sex was sacred he wouldn't have fast forwarded. It's like he only got out of my response what he wanted, then tried to switch it to being all about my fault again. You can bet your sweet molasses I'm not going to call him. I don't know how much more honest I can be. Sheezuz.
Magnolia says:
You didn't just hint, you laid it out. Responding to him in such detail was more than was necessary after your encounter with him. YOU are the one who noticed that he didn't get it when you were with him, it shouldn't surprise you that he continues not to get it.
What I get is that he doesn't care about a relationship, maybe never did, and doesn't care much that you took the time to lay it out. He knows what you wanted and is now just retelling the story so as not to look like a complete jerk.
My dense ex, the DAY after a tearful 3-hour breakup that came after months of his disrespect and boundary-busting, was all like, hey, we can still go for a hike or a ride, right? How about this afternoon?
They don't get it / do totally get it but don't care and it's not worth wasting your breath on telling them that they don't / in fact do.
runnergirl says:
There are so many tells in his response like "getting up to speed" and "I would still like to go on a hike or go kayaking sometime. That is if you think you can keep your hands off of me JK" Oh dear lord. Pleeeze. Lots of drama for one month.
Now you get the opportunity to have your actions match your words. "Your 'tell' can be determined by your response or lack of it." Flush, block, delete, and move on. You didn't tolerate his shody behavior and it only took a month…wahoo for you!
D says:
How do you get rid of the impulse to chase once they start exhibiting the signs of being EUM or AC? That's my problem..it's that I feel like I have to make them like me and I take it extremely personally when they are acting like that..I need to know WHY when I shouldn't even bother with them further.
searcher says:
That's always been my problem, needing to know WHY their behavior has changed, from being in hot pursuit of me to being indifferent. It's true that once we lose that attention, we want it more than we did before it went away. It's almost as if it triggers this desperate side of me that needs to know what I did wrong and how I can bring back that attentive, sweet guy that I fell for.
What we are failing to realize in these scenarios, if we in fact did not do something crazy to push them away, is that we fell for the impression of the guy, not the guy himself. And as Natalie has so elegantly pointed out before:
"From when you meet a person on day zero, they begin to unfold. Anything you think they are initially is an impression, not who they are, because who someone is, is based on experience of them."
So the guy butters up himself in the beginning to get you to fall for him, but at some point, for whatever reason, he'll decide that he's indecisive about you and that's your cue to exit. It's hard not getting an explanation as to why they are behaving like an AC and an EUM and treating you like you don't mean much to them anymore, but in knowing that it's not you, it's about them and their issues, and that you're not the first nor will you be the last to deal with this BS, take some comfort that you have finally met the real them and it is not something you'll tolerate, regardless of how long you've been with the guy. It's especially hard when you've been with him for a good amount of time and you thought that you knew him. Regardless, never allow a guy to exhibit that behavior with you. He will continue to do so until you show him you mean business.
searcher says:
And to answer your question, you just have to realize that you should never feel like you HAVE to make someone like you. If they did at first and then decided against it, that's their loss. The best thing to do when they are exhibiting signs of being EUM/AC is to leave them be. Chasing after these losers only makes you seem desperate and clingy, which is never attractive. I have found that showing that you don't give a damn is the best revenge, because they usually expect the woman to care and come running after them, to further inflate their egos. And when they come running back after you've given them no attention whatsoever, you continue to not give a damn, showing that you have boundaries, and respect and love yourself too much to let anyone treat you like you're not good enough for them.
La Pintura Bella says:
Ahhh…that ("How do I get rid of the impulse to chase?")is the real crux of this entire problem. This is why YOU have to dig into YOUR part in these relationships, this is why YOU have to work on YOUR issues. Because you chasing after him and trying to "get him" to like you or "convince him" why he should pick you is YOUR UNhealthy portion of this entire dynamic.
Solve that old baggage and you are home free! For me, I have a narcissistic father whose "love (if he even knows what love is) is entirely CONDITIONAL. In other words, I was literally conditioned to chase for love, to jump through hoops, to dance to whatever tune he chose. If I didn't, there was MAJOR emotional (and sometimes) physical abuse to suffer. That is MY issue to solve, because while this worked to help me survive MY childhood, it serves no good purpose at all now that I'm an adult.
Hope this helps and answered your question. You will lose the impulse to chase after these jerks once you deal with and heal your old wounds and start giving the love and validation you crave to yourself.
Then the right guy is just icing on the cake. YOU are the cake!
K says:
One of your posts above really struck a cord with me when you were discussing your ex and his looking crestfallen, telling you that he doesn't know why he does this, blah blah blah. I haven't read any of the posts after yours yet, but I would like to share that that is a heaping pile of steaming bullshit he gave you.
Here's why: If they do this REPEATEDLY, they know EXACTLY what they are doing and they know EXACTLY how it affects you. That sad puppy dog look has been used by many personality disordered men, those who lack conscience and empathy, in order to illicit YOUR sympathy and it worked! Over and over again as it did for MOST of us. All we need to do is share with our partners ONCE that something they do is HURTFUL. If they do it again, FLUSH!
This men are simple crap is just that, crap! Men know this too and the more disordered ones understand how to use this as an excuse for their behavior now too. I can't recall the name of the poster now, above, because your post caught my attention, but some idiot teaching women how men feel? Something like that? Anyway, that dude is a SICKO!!!! MY GOD!! It is SO EASY to see the DISORDER in these men, re: LACK OF EMPATHY! There is NO EXCUSE for a lack of empathy, although if we don't feel good about ourselves or have any self respect or boundaries, we will provide an excuse for them and for ourselves to remain in something incredibly toxic!!! All of that IS toxic. A healthy man and a healthy relationship will NOT create confusion! It will not create cognitive dissonance. It will not make you feel like you've got the spins!
I personally think online dating sites are very dangerous and a perfect place for predators to scout out new prey. I'd never, EVER do it. I've seen too many women hurt by disordered men online. It's sad to me that our society is less communicative in PERSON than we are online, text, email. I think technology makes it easy for AC's and EUM's to get away with what they do. They have the ability to create a FANTASY in your MIND online before you ever MEET them. It's harder to have boundaries online than even in person! It's easier for people to be vulnerable because it somehow feels "safer" online, but that's bullshit! Boundaries are even MORE essential and critical ONLINE. My ex psychopath caught many victims with ONLINE dating. It was AMAZING how easy this was for him. UGH!
Anyway, I'm in agreement that the men are simple line is an excuse to act in SHADY ways. My ex used this as well, "I'm simple, babe, why you wanna complicate things?"
See how that works? If you don't have boundaries, and you do not respect yourself, this line will do what it did to me over and over, make me feel that it was ME that was complicating the situation and in a way I was, by telling myself that anything that man said was close to the truth.
K says:
There is a great book called "Women Who Love Psychopaths" by Sandra Brown, M.A. EXCELLENT reading and for women who have been involved with AC's and EUM's, it's very important reading material! It will help you understand yourself better too as women who become involved with predators have what Sandra refers to as "Super Traits". There are not necessarily negative, but are explained in detail and in summary explained well to me why we need boundaries so we can protect the wonderful character traits we all have.
It's my opinion that healthy women do not get involved with unhealthy men and if they happen to be lured by one, it doesn't take them long to flush. Boundaries and self respect, as well as being aware of our vulnerabilities is a key line of defense in protecting ourselves and our lives.
Peace again and thanks Nat! LOVE your blog!
genie says:
I am currently in a relationship, where my lover continues to make promises and doesn't fufill them. The empty promises are beginning to bug me and i have never called upon them, for fear that I might come across as petty or greedy.
Freya says:
Um, how does calling someone on bad behavior make you petty or greedy?
Freya says:
Mymble, Yoghurt – typically it is the women in my life that give me grief for having relations with men I don't love or have a relationship with. They comment that I should have more respect for myself, or will snottily say that it's my business if I decide to have sex with someone I haven't known for X amount of time. I also get comments that I am obviously being used by these men and I should have boundaries, or I must have self esteem issues.
It has also been the women in my life that have tried to convince me that I am a victim of men. For awhile I started believing what I was being told and went into a deep depression where I could not even talk to a man, let alone let one get near me physically. I became afraid of the reaction I have toward men, a very very powerful physical reaction btw.
The way I see it these are all situations I CHOSE to put myself into. Every situation is different and there have been times where I wanted sex to turn into a relationship and it didn't. It certainly disappointed me, and occasionally hurt me. Usually the situations where I was hurt I had all kinds of fantasies about how it was going to turn out – so many fantasies, in fact, that I could not even see the guy for who he really was; which was usually no good for me. Ha ha.
It will come as no surprise that the men are generally in favor of sex whenever I offer it. Actually, I have had quite a few men tell me much later that they felt the sex was casual and they did not really like having casual sex. It made them feel used. It really surprised me to get this feedback. It was these comments from men that led me down a very long road of self discovery and experimentation within relationships of both sexes (not sexual experimentation btw). During this time I discovered how sensitive men are. It's very cute. Their emotions are just as powerful as women's are. Most of the time, however, they have a great capacity to control their emotions.
There have been a few men that put me down for being promiscuous. They will not usually say so outright like the women do though. Instead they resort to talking behind my back and encouraging other men to try to have sex with me to prove to themselves that I am not worthy of their respect. Or they will get very pushy and forceful. I find that kind of behavior very hurtful. Thankfully it does not happen often, and I am not afraid to put these men in their place by calling them out on their bad behavior.
I completely respect anyone who makes a choice. After all it is our choices that reflect who we are as a person, what we believe about ourselves, and the world around us. I figure if it feels good, do it. If it feels bad, don't. I would never tell someone that they should live their life the way I live mine. There are some very serious benefits to being fiercely independent, however. I love to hear about other peoples stories and why they made the choices they did. I love hearing from people with different viewpoints because it helps me to expand my own views; it keeps me from becoming to rigid in my own beliefs.
I think BR has a real good group of women and have immensely enjoyed the discourse. It is important to me, and I think to other women as well, to feel a part of a community. Especially one in which women can talk openly about women's issues. I don't really have any strong women in my life and find it difficult to find help in answering some of the tougher questions that women are faced with. Kudos to Natalie for allowing this precious exchange to take place. Hopefully we have learned a little something we can take with us into the future.
sushi says:
Hi Freya, enjoyed your post.
I do find that to have the choice is paramount and value people who are honest with their outlook and intentions, whatever they might be because that in turn allows you to make a choice.
All the different reactions you are having from men who are all up for having sex and then will critise you or put you down- well, they are not honest with themselves to atart with, or with you.
And there is the men(and women) for whom casual sex, no strings and emotions is not enough: they want you crazy in love about them and playing to their tune as well as the sex and offer pathetic crumbs in retur. They are the ego vampires and I think it`s that sort that brings most women on here. -
LetsDoItAgain says:
Glad my comments were read without anger or bias by at least a couple of people. Thank you for sharing your experience Freya, it is the experience of a growing number of women, and they should not be shamed for approaching things from a practical standpoint, by man or woman. With your comment: "Before anyone starts getting in an uproar over what sounds like casual sex let me assure you = I do not think sex is casual at all. Its a gift, beautiful and magical. Unless its done with the wrong person." You said a mouthful. The very idea that the act of sex itself is more policed than the person is mind boggling to me, but this is what I am seeing here.
The funny thing is, women are hurling insults at me and claiming I am telling them to have sex with everybody with no strings attached when I couldn't be saying anything further from that. It is simply the act of allowing it to cloud your better judgment that is problematic. I'm sure most people would agree with that, but because I framed the same comment in a way that said it'd be helpful to decrease the importance put on the act itself and thereby make it much harder to cloud your better judgment, I have offended the blog masses. Yet the act of sex itself is not causing any physical harm to the body, it's the emotion that one makes sex the gateway to that cuts the deepest. Honestly, I don't even think sex itself is the issue, I merely brought it up because it is such a sticking point for so many women. The actual crux of the issue is the controlling of the emotions and the refocusing of one's perspective on what their interactions with the opposite sex should be (or, simply put, the fallacy of chasing a relationship with every guy you meet).
I find it counterproductive and illogical to preach discernment about a woman's sexual partners more so than about whom they give their emotions to. Or to allow a woman to wallow in the thought that she has no control over her emotions (as many here have perpetuated), so that she takes even less of command over her own romantic life (leaving room for someone else to control it for her, for better or worse). And yes, emotions and sex are discernible, just like emotions and work are discernible and so on and so forth. Control of emotions in certain settings is something that we learn as kids, it is not some unattainable dream. The irony is that, the deepest, strongest loves you will ever experience in life happen WITH NO SEXUAL CONTACT WHATSOEVER. You can live your entire life and love your mother/father/sister/brother/daughter/son with every bone in your being without ever having to have sex with them. So to pretend as if emotions and sex are inseparable because you are too stuck in your ways to even consider anything else is what it is, but don't frame it as the inevitable. That thought process just reeks of the thought pattern of someone who is either too lazy or too "comfortable" with their victimhood to even consider what might help them in some way.
The final piece of evidence would be to ask these types if they found themselves in similar heartbroken situations even when they did not have any sexual contact with the person. Chances are that person has so little self-control in regards to their emotions that they will give away their heart even without the sex, making it clear that controlling for when it happens is not even the root of their problem. But of course, people will keep saying how it's simply in their nature to be reckless with their own emotions. Fine, do as you wish. But to me that excuse is no more acceptable than the "in the moment" and "boys will be boys" nonsense we can all agree is just that, nonsense.
Michelle says:
My dad actually emailed you thanking you because I talk about you and your site and how it has helped me in my present situation. It's literally such a bad situation I'm in.i moved to another country to be with my boyfriend(met him in college while he was in america) and to start a life,future etc and turns out he not what I thought he was. We live under the same roof right now. It's a damn mess. He has lied, he does sketchy inappropriate things on fb/internet. He shuns me and runs away in another room and locks himself in another room when I try to confront him on the bullshit he does. He shuns me completely.I mean one time we were in a fight/argument Because he crossed my boundaries.well we tried to talk about it via phone Bec at the time I was downtown and he was on the other side of downtown but basically he called all these girls in past and dragged whoever or tied to pawn me off or get me to meet up with a girl I met once that he graduated with in hs. Really.no. So that was a mess. I'm not okay wih him
Doing that. Anyways since that all happend and we were at our worst he throws my boundaries/standards out the door. That whole weekend was a mess.I mean he stayed out till 5 am twice. Ha omg this is ridic. One evening he come to me as were still on the fight of that weekend it was a sat evening and he was like "look I am just going to go clear my head and meditate,read a book and be alone, i need the think. I need time to myself. So what does he do.He left the house at like 6pm, goes out till later like 5am (like i said earlier) All of what he told me with the "i want to be alone,clear my mind" BULLSHIT. It was a lie and he actually simultaneously was texting this other girl while texint me telling me hes alone and im at the house and called her and met up with her while I was at home,depressed alone sad. I mean come on! Right. So like he just doesn't have his priorities or shit right in his brain. He is clueless. I mean I'm pretty sure were broken up Bec I told him In done and I am.. Like just recently again he crossed my boundaries while I was away getting a visa renewal this past weekend/Sun.Since he's lied about stupid shit I have his passwords to his fb and what not. Which I think is fine. If have nothing to hide it shouldt matter. I saw all this ridiculous shit on his fb. Innapropriate stuff. He's going out of his way to have these conversations with these girls in America (where I'm from) and they tell him how much they miss him blah blah and then even one girl dedicated a status to him saying how " just talked to my longlost/BFF (his name) he said he's going to conquer Bangkok haha. Miss the old days xoxoxo" Like who is this person. its just weird. Like im sorry but I don't want to see that crap! Oh and the only way I even found out he was casually chatting it up with her was Bec her status to him popped in his newsfeed. He deleted it. He did more sketchy shit that I saw too. Ya,I know I get it it's fb but you know what it's a respect issue and in person/life or on Internet this is the crap he does and he is clueless and yet continues this crap. Ugh. Sigh. I am alone here ,I moved here and I mean you might at well say we're practically married, we live under the same roof. He avoids me. After this shit most recent argument boundaries argument .. He just for ex. he went out didn't tell me, just goes out on koh San rd(party backpacker street)till 4 am while I'm at the house. The next day I write Notes I re explain my self and shit and yes I read the one about girls talking and thinking too much. I know I know. I don't deserve this its crap. We don't even sleep in the same room oh btw we r living at his parents house for the time being.We had these plans we were going to get our own place bec he got the job over here and well basically i dont believe in the whole Living in two diff countries long distance thing. so we decided that its best if i move to be with him and i was finishing my degree(almost done online) so it was a good idea and i was fine with that but when i came here this is the shit i am getting ya know. Sorry this is all over the place. But yea he literally is clueless and thinks he has done literally nothing wrong. Like today I was in process of leaving to go to my hair app. Oh I didn't mention my birthday is in three days:( I'm turning 24) but as I was leaving he's asking me like nothing of his shit has happend "where r u going? I just ignored him and was basically like thinking to myself uh well you know you dont even tell me where ur going and after what u do and what I see u avoid me and say its all me and that I have done this and then u go out to party street till 3am with out me while im just at home studying. Well, I just rolled my eyes and just walked out the door to the hair place. I think I just need to book a ticket back to home and not be with a man child. I don't deserve this. I really think its ambiguous behavior. I don't do any or half the crap he has done. I respect him, i love him and honor him an i would never do anything to make him feel insecure or to led him to belive other men/guys come before him. I dont have guys messaging me on fb telling me how much they miss me xoxo. I mean of its on his wall and in public wishing him well or us well then okay,thats fine but when it's statuses dedicated to him and xoxox this in that then going out not giving a f about my feelings or boundaries and continuing to involve these petty past girl shit crap in his life. Oh and honestly i would never lie to him tell him im goign to go et fresh air clear my mind when were in a rock bottem argument and then call and text some dude and then meet up with him. WHAT A JOKE. This person still is consantly texting him and just im so over this crap. I am not okay with that. I feel betrayed and really disrespected.basically in my notes and things I do say/said or what I last said on paper Bec he's not concerned .. Was you need to really figure out wich is more worh it to you, all this bullshit crossing my boundaries these petty stupid past girl relationships in your past or being in a committed relationship with me and not losing me. He doesnt seem to still get it..hes downstairs, on his computer not talking to me about any of this, Liek literally and im up in my room alone. Like what hell! i want someone who is dedicated who is concerned not someone who is a man/child and doesnt talk to me about my feelings or the sketchy shit he does and thinks its completly fine or normal in a relationship. HE should respect my boundaries. I am doing that to him but hes not giving it to me in return. You know whats funny if i was doign any of this crap he would flip out and be like f off probably. HE is liek a one way street with a DEADEND. and Ugh I am so alone and lost right now. I want to curl up in a ball and cry. I wish I had ur phone number so u could give me personal advice and you seem like such a wonderful nice lady. Please help me as this is a really confusing,upsetting time I'm going through. Anyone please help or just anything..any thoughts would help. Thank you. Michelle -
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