text:
What's with the name?
Allow us to explain.
by Alanna Bennett | 3:34 pm, August 30th, 2012
TAGS: fake geek girl | geek girls | geekiness | Idiot Nerd Girl | memes
Thanks for these. It's always slightly frightening when you start to explore the depths of a particular fandom. I only just became obsessed with Harry Potter two years ago and thankfully nobody was overly territorial about it.
It's strange. I've always seen these memes and they instantly make me think of very specific women that I've come across – the kinds of women who will jump from trend to trend because it's convenient for them, because they want to be perceived as cool and interesting, and not because they're seriously interested in it. I think there's a distinct difference between the kind of ignorance that comes from just being introduced to a fandom and making your way through, and the kind of ignorance that is inherent when you do not have a sincere interest in whatever it is that you claim to be exploring. Girls like this frustrate me, because they do make it harder for girls who are sincerely and genuinely interested in geeky things to be accepted. Even just looking at a lot of the memes that are made, I get it. They aren't common missteps people make when first diving into the world of geekiness. And I have, on many unfortunate occasions, come across girls like this, who think and talk exactly like this.
What I don't agree with, and I feel like this should be a given, is being unnecessarily discriminatory against a female geek just because she's female and might not be as knowledgeable on the subject as other people.
But I do stand by the notion that there's a clear difference between someone who needs to be taught, and someone who's putting on a facade to create a greater sense of appeal.
Because a good point is always made with a smug expression and a quip.
needs to be taught? i am so glad i am not a young geek anymore. it sounds perilous.
there's a difference between enjoying banter, quotes, references and delving into things and requiring some kind of degree in geek "canon"(whatever the hell that is) to drop into shark infested high stakes conversation where you can be excommunicated for some nebulous misstep. sheesh.
when did it become frightening to explore? I'm only 40, and when i was young, meeting anyone else who liked anything vaguely geeky was a refuge and pure joy. i don't remember people competing or drawing lines in the sand or policing each other for right knowledge, etc. is this another one of those unintended consequences to the internet?
oh, and lest i forget the subject of the article, back then girls were so rare in geeky circles i don't think it would have occurred to any guy to criticize, monopolize maybe, but not persecute. i'm farely certain i was past my teens before i ever came across a girl who read comics or sci-fi, thought science was fun, or even one who was an obsessive music collector.
I completely agree. I'm a nerdy girl, but there are definite fandoms where I feel completely out of my league. That said, I also know plenty of girls that actually DO fit the "idiot nerd girl" meme…because they're not actually interested in nerdy things. They just think it's cute. Or popular. Or they like nerdy guys (I don't blame them for that – nerdy guys are amazing). But yes, people who discriminate just because a seemingly nerdy person is female? Drives me up the wall…
perhaps it's because I've been a geek since I was a toddler (literally), but I have never seen or witnessed this. I've witnessed and dealt with more Nerd rage and discrimination because I'm a girl than I have heard of people dealing with discrimination because they're entering the geek fandom and don't quite know too much. Maybe the geeks I hang out with are super nice, but I tend to see a greater willingness to share within the geek community than anything else (again, except when sex comes into play).
Okay. You got me with the Dave Sim reference. The first author I knew of to systematically destroy his own creation.
my experience was always that any geeky type was overjoyed if there was something they could bring to the table, or introduce to someone else, not to get snide that someone wasn't hip to something. these days i am not particularly social enough to have much opinion, but i keep coming across articles like these sometimes about girl geeks, sometimes about raging geeks in general. i see it in movie review comment boards, for something like batman–pure rage and possessiveness. i watch people who seem to be in agreement, near as i can tell, tearing each other down with boiling vitriol. total madness. i'd like to see someone make youtube videos, roleplaying/acting out conversations in comment threads to make it super clear how insane it is.
i don't understand the female hostility one bit. seems so counter intuitive.
truth be told, I blame it on the internet. I never see this kind of hyper aggressive behavior in person. It's why whenever I play MMOs, I never reveal whether I'm male or female, it's why on online forums, I choose gender neutral user names so that people cannot make outright blanket judgement based on my perceived gender. It's the anonymity of the entire thing that makes people get hyper aggressive, that allows them to let themselves be irrational in how they handle situations when, in reality, if they met this person face to face, they more than likely would not be as mean and cruel as they are on the internet.
If you go to a Con, there's essentially no tension what so ever, whether you're male or female. You might come across some ignorance, but I have yet to hear of a situation where someone became outright verbally aggressive and violent towards another person purely because of their sex. It's because there's a greater chance of creating a bond, a stronger sense of community when you have a pair of eyes that you're looking at as you speak then just words on a screen.
If we're talking based on what we've seen, then I'd have to disagree with your theory. I've had this *actually happen* to me in face to face conversation with some dudes I used to work with. They definitely didn't get all hostile gate keeper, are-you-really-a-nerd with the guy I was seeing at the time (who also worked with us) — who WASN'T a nerd. When I (who knew things and had the same interests as the dudes in question) tried to contribute to the conversation I was actually literally quizzed on my knowledge. It was a totally gendered thing, there was no enthusiastic sharing, and it really, really sucked.
And unfortunately, you not being familiar with gender-based problems at cons doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'm not a con-goer myself because I hate crowds, but plenty of women have shared their stories about harassment at cons – for example, check out the Con Anti-Harassment Project: http://www.cahp.girl-wonder.org/faq/
(And frankly, feeling threatened or frustrated is no excuse for being a jerk. I don't think you're intentionally suggesting that it is, but it does kind of come across as gatekeeper-jerk-apology.)
I'm not saying that it never happens outside of this kind of situation, and that this is the end all, be all of explanations as to why it happens, I'm simply providing a possible reason.
Also, if you wouldn't mind reading where I said " but I have yet to hear of a situation where someone became outright verbally aggressive and violent towards another person purely because of their sex. ", that would be pretty great.
I would also appreciate it if you did not project any weird twisted perception onto what it is that I'm trying to say. It's kind of tiring how quickly people are to assume that providing a reason for an action inherently means a justification, an A.O.K. A, wellp, what can you do? reaction. Knowing the source of a problem can provide a great opportunity to finding a solution. Perhaps if people were not constantly on edge with the reality that perhaps not everyone does something that's in poor taste, or disrespectful, or mean, because they are evil, but rather because they, too, have problems, this world would make a lot more social progress.
It's really great that today geeks of all genders can be proud. Seriously. I see being a geek as to like a few things a lot, and being a nerd as to like many things a lot and to crave them to their finest detail, and both are intellectual pursuits in depth. It's about passions, about loving and living them.
If modern Western society is open to that, in other words if others who value non-intellectual pursuits more than intellectual ones accept that being a geek/nerd is a thing, and an acceptable one at that, that's awesome. And it comes naturally that this is a non-gendered victory, from being shunned for love of a thing to being respected.
However, this changing mindset comes as a trend, and has attracted what every other trend has: posers. Of either gender. I don't see "Fake geek girl" as a girl first, but really as a "fake geek".
Usually the best thing against a meme is a new, better one. I'm all for a "real geek girl" meme, perhaps using a different picture. But there are posers out there. And there are fake geek guys too. That too could be a meme.
This. All of this.
I don't think that providing a misconstrued response to this meme is a solution. Providing a meme that shows inherent female geek pride, on the other hand, would be pretty great.
That works in theory, but thing is, the "fake geek" stereotype didn't form and doesn't exist in a vacuum. When you're a culture that regularly responds to criticism with rape threats and has a long history of justifying and perpetuating and institutionalizing sexism, explicitly gendering gatekeeping–as this does, and as the "fake geek girl" stuff does–becomes way the hell problematic.
I did read that. My point was: *you* "have yet to hear of a situation where …" and I'm saying that *you* not having heard of it doesn't mean that exactly what you're describing hasn't happened. It has. I'm glad you've never been stuck dealing with it, but your experiences are not universal.
As for the rest, tone comes across different to different people (especially on the internet). My hackles-raised reaction is because I've had tons of people try to explain *away* other folks' jerkdom by just…explaining it. Like understanding why it happens makes it okay or means I shouldn't be mad about it. That wasn't your intention, so I'm sorry for my knee-jerk response, because my anger isn't at you.
For several decades, the acquisition and consumption of sub-cultural or non-mainstream media carried with it an implied experience. If you knew about and could quote from…oh, I don't know, let's say Spectreman, that conveyed a lot of unstated information about you: that you were in high likelihood fairly involved in tape trading or knew someone who was, that you likely had to accumulate other similarly esoteric media from the relatively few sources available, and that you were of a certain personality type and disposition. Mere awareness of a show or quote source meant "you speak my language."
However, the permanence of digital media, the instantaneous nature of the Internet, the advent of reliable search engine technology, and the establishment of various media databases has rendered all of that null and void. Case in point: if you didn't know what I was referring to when I said "Spectreman," the word can be typed into Google and you'll get a Wikipedia page containing information that once could only be possessed from having actually acquired and watched 63 episodes of it. Now available in seconds.
What this means is that the possession of sub-cultural knowledge no longer carries the implications it once did. Indeed, it no longer carries any implications other than perhaps "I am aware of the existence of this media." However, those for whom the implied experience applies, those who operate under the notions of the implied shared experience through awareness, are still present. Several of them are invested enough that they are, for one reason or another, inept at establishing interpersonal connections with those outside of their sphere of interests.
And so it is the proliferation of the notion of "fake" vs "real" in such circles strikes me as an inelegant way for people who are not the most socially versatile to communicate what they are actually trying to say, which is "we don't actually have much in common aside from the fact that we've bot aware of the existence of the same media. Now that I see this is the case, I feel like I've been tricked and do not take kindly to it. I must now find a more stringent method of finding those like-minded to myself."
You are free to assign any number of pejoratives to this behavior: "territorial," "elitist," the ever-popular "patriarchal," and so on. But I believe that's ultimately symptomatic of the greater issue at play here: that "fandom," or "media subculture" if you prefer, is ultimately about locating and establishing connections with like-minded people. In the end, the consumption of the media itself is largely a vector to enable this connection-making activity. Because the emerging audience for this media is substantially larger than the traditional one by virtue of the barriers to access having been removed, I predict that in the future that traditional wing of fandom will create/move on to new interests that by design, cannot be instantly grasped through the use of Google, Wikipedia, Youtube, etc. For just as the "meme" images in this post denote that the new audience for such material is "here to stay," so too is the audience seeking to establish connections with the like-minded.
Because search engines and online databases are limited by concrete connections (example: Battlestar Galactica relates to Knight Rider because…), I predict that the method by which what I describe will come about is through the use of abstract thematic ones combined with obscurity/complexity that cannot be quickly explained or understood. The systems in which they communicate will be similarly opaque to accessibility. We're already starting to see this now.
We could also argue that's part of a larger problem, one not inherent nor exclusive to geek culture.
Yeah, but it's intensified within geek culture, and particularly at the intersection of geek an 'net culture.
I think the point of this coup is that it doesn't really matter if there are "fake" or "real" fans. It's really your prerogative what you do and does it really matter if someone is "faking" it. On the other hand if there are an influx of "wannabes" does it discredit your fandom, but since when is this a contest? If you love something then does it really matter what other people are doing?
This issue continually confounds me. Intellectually I understand that there are people out there that are incapable of dealing with the idea of girl geeks. What I don't understand is why anybody gives a crap about what they have to say.
I don't know anybody that thinks gender has anything to do with geek cred. Anybody that did would never last in any of my circles, on-line or irl.
Yes, there's stupid, ignorant, hateful people on the Internet. Don't associate with them and you don't have to worry about it.
I like it as well :) nice turn of the table.
I saw one of these LOLs last week that I had to respond to. It was a picture of whatsisname who plays Captain America (yeah, I can't even remember his name now; that's how much I was concerned with the actor), shirtless. The caption was, "Admit it, girls/This is the only reason you watched Captain America". Yes, because we "girls" don't care about what's going on in a movie as long as there's a pretty face and nice pecs & abs to look at, right? I fixed it by recaptioning it with "Some girls/actually like comics — and Tommy Lee Jones." Was hoping to get it voted up, but apparently not enough people agreed?
I'm 40 as well, and I remember being the only woman at the gaming store back in the day, depending on the day. It was glorious when a second, then a third came around. We got a lot of crap in my area. Especially when we wanted to play Battletech, or something very strategic. I had one gamer guy outright refuse to play at any table with a woman because that must not be a serious game. It happened. My solution? Not to play at the gaming store, but instead at people's houses where I knew and trusted folks.
…These aren't even funny. Not even in a "stupid, not-making-sense" sort way. I did like the last ones though.
Maybe it's a crowded intersection. One crowded by assholes. And they have an equivalent meme too: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/butthurt-dweller-gordo-granudo
All I want to say is that being a geek is such a great thing in this era, and it can be good for everyone. The culture is what we make it, and we can make it better. I'm all for nuking the meme if it's offensive. I only suggested different tactics (not unlike what's being done with this spin).
The only thing required to be a geek… the ONLY THING REQUIRED: a semi-passionate interest in at least one thing generally considered geeky.
If someone has that, they're a geek. Period.
If a non-geek comes out of "The Avengers" wanting to learn more about the characters and see the other movies: congrats, they're now a geek! They may only have that one geeky interest, but that's all that's needed.
Anyone who would marginalize someone for not being an uber-geek is just a dick.
I think the person who made these is kinda missing the point of the meme. It isn't the fact that she is a girl that makes her laughable. It is the fact that she is pretentious and fake. We aren't saying she isn't passionate or interested in the subculture she claims to be a part of, her actions and attitudes are.
I get what you're trying to say, but we don't give guys this much hatred for doing this. Because we ALWAYS believe guys are interested in those kind of trends, where we only think ugly, fat or slutty girls are the only one who like geek culture. We always thinks girls who find geek culture interesting are trying to get attention. I get it myself, all the time. Always so much hatred, I don't even want to say I like geek stuff because three's always gonna be a guy that thinks I like Guild Wars 2 because I obviously want to get laid and get free items in game.
I have no doubt there are girls like the 'fake geek girl'. The thing is though, why does it need to be gendered? I'm sure there must also be male 'wannabe geeks' who fake interest in a fandom to look cool or fit in. (Um… I might have been done that at times myself, actually.) But as far as I'm aware, there's no online backlash against the 'fake geek guy'. I wouldn't have a problem with the meme if it was just mocking hipster geek wannabes in general; it's the fact that it specifically singles out girls, when guys do it too, that makes it sexist.
See my comment below: the problem with the meme is that there are pretentious and fake geek guys too, but no one mocks them. Apparently guys are allowed to spout bullshit about things we don't really know about; it's only when a girl does it that the Internet gets mad about it.
No one's saying that guys like this don't exist. However, personally, girls like this are more of a detriment to the geek girl culture and population then geek guys who do this. Why? Because "geek" girls who do it to be cool are, in turn, only solidifying the idea that girls who are into geek culture are doing it for A.) attention or B.) Attention. When in reality, that's not the case. It's easy to demand more variety when situations like this don't directly effect you, but at the end of the day, I will continue to be annoy by girls like this because it continues to make ME look bad.
So thanks, you've essentially answered your own question.
And as I've stated very clearly in my original post – This is not to say it is a fact, or inherently true. It is based purely on my own experience, so please, try again.
I've essentially answered the same thing to someone else but:
No one's saying that guys like this don't exist. However, personally, girls like this are more of a detriment to the geek girl culture and population then geek guys who do this. Why? Because "geek" girls who do it to be cool are, in turn, only solidifying the idea that girls who are into geek culture are doing it for A.) attention or B.) Attention. When in reality, that's not the case. It's easy to demand more variety when situations like this don't directly effect you, but at the end of the day, I will continue to be annoy by girls like this because it continues to make ME look bad.So thanks, you've essentially answered your own question.
I'm glad that someone else understands.
It's hard to be accepting of a group that is part of the reason why you're perceived so negatively.
Girls don't do it to guys, I will give you that. But have you even seen guys bug, tease, or pick on another guy that they think doesn't fit in/live up to the expectations? I think it's just as harsh, if not a LOT moreso… doesn't excuse it in any way, but just don't think it's guys picking on 'poseur geek girls'… guys are assholes and will pick on anyone that's a bit different than them…
I don't think the point of the meme is to make fun of these girls based on the level of interest. I think the point of the meme is to call out those who are insincere in their interests, and only show 'interest' to be perceived as cool/get tail/etc.etc.etc.
I don't quite follow what this has to do with what I said.
Also, I don't think Ass hole-dom and douchebaggery as defined by ostracizing and picking on those who are different is something strictly applied to guys.
was a reply to Dark_Hollow… and you're right, it most certainly doesn't just apply to guys. I was trying to point out that guys may be mean to 'poseur geek girls' but they are down-right evil to 'poseur geek guys'
Ah, for some reason it showed as a response to me.
Here's the thing:
Geek Guys are not under fire because they're seen, as a collective whole, as being fake, and only doing it for attention. Geek Guys, as a whole, are seen as the default. They are seen as the real thing. This is how our society and culture views them.
Geek Girls, on the other hand, are dealing with a lot of flack, a lot of which is just not okay and cool. Part of this IS because of the number of girls who are trying to put on a ruse of interest in order to get people interested in them. They are part of the reason why Geek Girls are seen as: A.) Slutty B.) Fake C.) Insincere D.) Ignorant E.) All of the above
It sucks, but Fake Geek Guys get less flack because Geek Guys as a whole don't have to worry about their image in that respect. Fake Geek Girls, however, do not have that same sense of leisure.
Let me get this straight:
1. TheMarySue posts an article about a phenomenon wherein girl geeks are assumed to be "fake" and just in it for the attention, and thereby treated with hostility. 2. You say "Nope, never seen anyone treated that way." 3. Other people say "Well, I have." 4. You say "I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I haven't seen it." (Repeatedly, and as rudely as possible.)
What, may I ask, is your point? When I see a picture of an elephant on the internet, I don't comment to say I've never seen an elephant in real life. You're just derailing the discussion.
Funnily enough I too have been quizzed by my fellow nerd friends when I attempted to contribute to a conversation based around nerd culture. Hell when I told my now best friend I beat Resident Evil 4 the first thing he ever said to me was "Oh yeah, who's the last boss?" I don't think it's a gender thing so much as I think it's just a way for them to deem you worthy of nerdom.
It's an elitist tactic that doesn't just apply to women, as plenty of male and female nerds have used this "test your knowledge" tactic on males and females. It's just an attempt to see whether or not the nerd in question is in fact a 100% honest nerd or just a poseur attempting to assimilate themselves into a group and culture they know nothing about. The intent of the meme is to parody poseurs who claim they're something they're not; which a lot of girls tend to do. I'm not defending the inherent sexism of the meme but I don't think it was created with that in mind.
I would give you a hug right now if I could.
Thanks :)
Honey, No. Just no.
The perceived interpretation of the Meme is that it has to do with Geek Girls in their entirity, when in reality, it isn't. It's about insincere geek girls who are doing it for attention and with no actual genuine interest in the culture and what composes the culture – Whatever level of interest you'd like to apply to said definition of geekery is neither here nor there. The final point is that there is no genuine interest what so ever. It is a method of being perceived as apart of a culture that is believed to be cool to add extra points to your life book. My initial reply was to state this point and this point alone, and all replies otherwise are branched off in response to other trains of thought that people had that were triggered by other things.
I do not believe that this meme is targeting all nerd girls, and is trying to belittle all nerd girls. If you don't want to take it then that's fine, but please do not jump into an off shoot of a conversation that is essentially over and try to assume that there was no point that was initially made.
To also try to state that I am the only one with a rude tone is enough to make me chuckle as I only respond in a tone to mirror whoever I'm replying to. The bigger question is, what is THEIR point if I am not only going out of my way to make it clear that I am not denying it's existence, but also making it very clear from the get go that I am speaking from my experience and my experience alone? Outright pointing out the fact that there very well may be flaws in my theory, and that nothing that I'm stating is the end all, be all of the issue?
So if you don't like it, don't read it. It's not going to make a change in my day.
Wow. Could you please not explain to me how I'm wrong about events I experienced, which you were not there to witness, and thus have no idea what happened other than what I actually said? Because guess what: I actually know both men and women get quizzed on stuff. I think it's pretty dickish to do that to anyone of any gender. But that incident I mentioned? It was nasty, mean spirited, and incredibly gendered. You know how I know that it was about sexism specifically and not just generally about people being jerks? Because *I was actually there and experienced it*.
I call BS on that statement. I've seen plenty of pretentious fake geek guys get mocked, sometimes worse than the pretentious fake geek girl. It may be more prevalent in certain parts of geek culture that a woman is mocked before the man. But geek culture is an elitist place and you can bet your bottom dollar that the fake nerd guy in question will be mocked and called out just as soon as the fake nerd girl. Just because there isn't an "Idiot Nerd Boy" meme doesn't implicate that fake male nerds are free to play poseur. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Especially when the only evidence you have to support a claim like "no one mocks them" is a single internet meme.
I didn't tell you that you were wrong in the events you experienced. What I did say was that it can swing both ways. The purpose of my comment was to give a counter to your implying that nerd elitism is gendered. Not once did I say you were wrong about your experiences so I apologize that my wording made it seem like I was telling you that you were wrong; that wasn't my intent.
Yes what happened to you was gendered and I completely disagree with the way they acted, especially since Not Nerd Guy wasn't given their elitist quiz. I also agree that it's dickish to do that to anyone of any gender.
Mmm. I'm just loving all the men jumping on here to give their two cents on a problem they don't personally know, much less understand and empathize with, but are vehement enough to claim facts on.
Whenever I start thinking TheMarySue is a safe space for open discussions and confessions about sexism, I'm politely proven wrong. Thanks, dudes. Keep the 'you're too sensitive!!!' and 'male geeks get hurt too!!!' and 'the real definition of sexism is…' comments coming.
I'm loving the "HASN'T READ ALL 900 ISSUES OF BATMAN: NEITHER HAVE YOU", myself.
Posting on here for the same reason. And let's see how many people circulating this meme can actually catch that one.
…shit, does that make me a geek hipster?
Maybe this issue confounds you because you insist on approaching it 'intellectually'. Try emotionally, because these things really hurt after a while.
Women are consistently given shit, for one reason or another, by trying to enter what was traditionally founded as a man's territory. People are hurt and frustrated by this. This happens enough that it's worth drawing attention to. What is there to be so confused about? That people feel?
'Don't associate with them' is the equivalent of saying 'get out while you still can'. This stuff is everywhere, subtly and blatantly. Instead of telling us to 'stop associating with them', can we instead switch that to 'hey, guys, stop being assholes'?
You hit the nail on the head.
So why am I automatically given flak and insulted by women when I have an interest in cultures that are predominately theirs? Both sides don't seem to be very welcoming of the opposite gender when it comes to their sub-cultures.
This whole thing is just odd, but perhaps I'm simply seeing it from an older nerd girl perspective. I simply don't care to prove if i'm 100% nerd or not, because I'm into things for my enjoyment, not some weird preceived status thing from guys (or girls). I adore some things, like HG Wells, a few comuter games, some manga, plenty of comics etc I don't feel the need to buy heaps of merch or quizz people on their knowledge on what happened on page 34 of The Island of Doctor Moreau. geekdom/nerdom is about how much you are in love with something, something that changes your world in wonderful ways. Finding others to talk to about it shoud be awesome, not a chance to cut them to peices. If someone start quizzing you, or demanding to know if you have action figure #34 of the big bang theory or what not simply find somneone else to talk to, who will delight you with their view on things and perhaps even introduce you to a new and shiny fan thing to love. The demanding others are just a waste of time bent on a personal powertrip in a realm that simply shouldn't matter to you.
Because, judging by your comments on here, your interest extends to derailing conversations about sexism with 'but men face discrimination too!!!!!' and 'you don't understand what sexism really is, it actually is-', while sugarcoating it with 'oh but sexism is bad yes yes I agree'.
There's a few reasons right there as to why you'd get flack.
And people have shown they are so good at reading a person's soul and telling when they're sincere.
We only hear about how idiotic the policing is when someone's stupid enough to say a famous name is fake.
Ugh, I think my response got eaten when I tried to edit it. Anyways, tl;dr version is that my wife's had the same problem as this in the all-female fandoms she's participated in (read: so no misogyny from male nerds, and another important point I'll mention later) where there ends up being that same disconnect between her and the other people that are identifying as fans but end up actually having nothing in common because they are missing that assumed shared knowledge. Our angle on it is that part of this is from the gendered nature of fanworks and how female fans are much more prominent in stuff like fanfiction/fanart/cosplay/roleplays than male fans (see the post here from a few months ago about the PBS special on fanfic), so a question like "Should I play this game?" might be answered based on like someone's headcannon or favorite AU fanfic, making that discussion impossible and pointless.
And again… be it anime, gaming, comics, sci-fi, or whatever, I've never been part of a geek community that would tolerate such behavior. My personal reality conflicts with the assertion that the Internet is so chock full of misogynistic man-children that girl geeks can't find a place they feel welcome.
I've never been in a guild where the GM cares more about gender than DPS numbers.
I've never been in a M:TG tournament where the players were concerned about any "tracts of land" beyond the ones on the playing field.
I'm not part of any message board community that has a "No Girlz Allowde" policy or know anybody that would assume that somebody doesn't know what they're talking about because they are a girl.
And you can walk into my LCS tomorrow, start a pull list, and nobody will bat an eye.
So what conclusion should I draw here? That I just happened to find every group of enlightened nerds on the Internet?
2 cents:Badly done fake geek ads are a different story, but: 1: Guys do ask girls to prove their geek creds, and can be real jerks about it until you do. Much worse than to other guys. 2. Are you INSANE? A girl is hanging around trying to be interested in geek stuff because she thinks it is cool and you are driving her away? Are you sure she is insincere or just decides not to run the gauntlet? And then you whine when 6 months later she is in total cosplay black widow kicking your @$$ with her 12th level monk assassin? The window to prove you ARE cool and not a sexist jerk is narrow, and there are plenty of very cool geeks of both genders who are cool to noobs of any gender.
"If someone start quizzing you, or demanding to know if you have action figure #34 of the big bang theory or what not simply find somneone else to talk to, who will delight you with their view on things and perhaps even introduce you to a new and shiny fan thing to love. The demanding others are just a waste of time bent on a personal powertrip in a realm that simply shouldn't matter to you."
I got for down votes for saying the same damn thing. :(
Is the third one in a direct reference to Dave Sim, or have others actually babbled about light and voids?
Instead of answering my question through sarcasm and levying criticism at me -by completely missing the point- in an attempt to make me and anything I've said invalid. You could have actually given an answer or done what I intended and discuss the issue further by analyzing the seeming nature of our species to segregate those that are different to us.
The point of my comments have only been to open up a dialogue that focuses not on the issue of the one but rather the issues of both. I do not attempt to derail conversations about sexism by asserting that men are discriminated too. I'm only of the belief that in order to focus on a problem such as sexism we cannot only focus on the one side. I am not sugarcoating my claims nor have I attempted to. My stance is that sexism be looked at equally on both ends hence the reason I stated "both sides don't seem to be very welcoming of the opposite gender when it comes to their sub-cultures." I wasn't intending to invalidate your statements.
Being an idiot is not an exclusively female trait, it is a HUMAN trait, women just happen to be a part of the human race.
Men also use their interests in order to be perceived as cool and interesting.
Who says genuine geeky girls care to be accepted by territorial geeky men?
Blaming the victim is not the answer.
I think what it takes to be truly geeky over something is passion, pursuit, and period of time.
You need to become passionate about a certain something geeky. You don't know why exactly, but this certain something tickles your fancy, and all you want it some more! This passion will drive you to actively pursue this geekery. You become ravenous about anything and everything about that certain thing. It will drive you to the interwebs, books, forums, random strangers, comic con, but even if you don't have anyone to discuss your new found interest with, you still pursue it because it enriches your very soul.You hunt it down because you love every bit of it! And finally, the length of time your love for this certain geekery lasts. Does it still play a part in your life today? Do you regret that tattoo? It should still make you giddy, still make you smile, and you would still reach for those dvd's/books/comics/games if there was a fire!
A good thing to remember is, everyone is a newbie geek at some point, and if you are, just be honest. I can honesty say I am not a Batman geek, I really enjoy Batman related things, and I know what a batarang is, but I am not actively throwing myself into the Batman universe to learn more. But Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Arrested Devlopment, Greek Mythology, yes, I can say, I am a big geek for.
Why? Because I loved them when they were new to me, and I still love them when they are not.
That wasn't sarcasm. You said all these things along this thread and I was letting you know those are probably the reasons you get such negative responses in return.
You want to open up more dialogue? Here you go: your stance, your 'belief', is wrong. You don't live in a perfect world where sexism is an issue that can be looked at with 'equal measure on both ends': it disproportionately affects women, just like prejudice disproportionately affects gays and lesbians and not straights, and systemic racism disproportionately affects blacks and asians and hispanics, not whites. I would side-eye someone out of the room if they insisted I looked at the opposite ends of those issues, too.
In a perfect world, you could pull that 'it should be looked at equally on both ends'. But we don't live there. We live in a world where an Equal Pay Act bill for women was blocked. We live in a world where some women are forbid by law to drive cars or have jobs. We live in a world that actually came up with the term 'legitimate rape'.
And right now we're looking at an industry that overwhelmingly favors men and consistently excludes, mocks and sexualizes women at every point and turn. An industry that breeds an environment and culture that is, oftentimes, uncomfortable, and sometimes, downright scary for women.
So, no. That 'both sides' argument does not and cannot work.
All you did here was distract conversations in favor of a hopeful fallacy that is contradicted by hundreds of years of history. If you 'don't attempt to derail conversations about sexism', then I'd attempt a little harder, because this is exactly what you're doing.
All right, then. It's good you aren't actively participating in misogynistic spaces. Fantastic. I'm not disputing or dissenting over that.
But, and I will be frank with you: you're a man. And you acted rather typically by asserting your very pleasant reality over the combined frustrations and pains of many, many women.
Sexism isn't always as lovingly blatant as 'NO GIRLZ ALLOWDE" or "TITS OR GTFO". It crops up in slurs. It rears its head in nosy questions, and interrogations. It manifests in singling-out, and clamming up, and entitled flirting, and interruptions, and, yeah, sometimes the aforementioned 'lol girls suck'.
It shows up in a variety of ways, but since this is not your hell to live in, you're not going to be as quick to recognize it. That's the nature of privilege.
Hear, hear.
Really I don't recall telling anyone that they don't know what sexism is nor did I sugarcoat with 'sexism is bad yes I agree.' My question was why am I given a negative response from women when I show interest in something they like? That has nothing to do with statements on sexism or the matter; therefore that isn't really a viable answer to that question as enjoying musicals -the thing I enjoy that many women do- and getting treated in a similar manner that women have been treated in geek culture.
Um yes it can. Double standard is a big one. Women laugh at the abuse and mutilation of man (read: wife cuts husbands penis off/discussion on The Talk), male suffering is often considered non-existent or is just laughed at because the man is weak, male rape isn't taken seriously as well, or is considered an impossibility, male genital mutilation is a societal norm and expected upon birth, the percentage of male rape is nearly as high as female -not counting prison rape because that's male to male rape-, a man is more likely to get a stricter sentence for the same crime as a woman, a man's word is also not taken into account regardless of innocence if a female cries rape or assault. And if a woman commits domestic abuse against a male be it physically or mentally it is either ignored or she is cheered on because he "obviously deserved it." So I would say that you can focus on the issues of both ends.
There's a difference between the opposite issues of gay rights to someone who is straight because there aren't inequalities affecting both just the one. Same with racial issues so those points don't really work there. When two sides have pretty equal issues one should not be taken over the other, regardless of how much you wanna make claim that it's more important or prevalent.
Also the industry excludes, mocks and sexualizes women? You mean the community -at least what you've seen of it- because the industry itself doesn't really do that.
That's history, the "fallacy" doesn't contradict much of the inequality that affects both genders today, provided you actually don't play bias and look at more than your side of the coin.
Yes, because as we all know, women are all the time lying about themselves and suppressing their interests to impress nerds.
I saw something on some site once that was "The Five Types of Women You'll See at The Avengers", like "the mom" and "the suffering girlfriend", and thankfully, almost every comment was "What the hell, why is there no 'the girl who wants to see the avengers'?"
I like the idea of reclaiming this stupid meme. And I mean stupid in its purest form: it's completely unintelligent and needlessly specific.
Because there absolutely are males who do this sort of thing. I see keyboard warriors commenting on some subject with pretentions of knowledge about a subject, when all they've done is skimmed Wikipedia so it sounds like they're far more knowledgeable than they actually are. There isn't really much difference: both are perceived to engage in this deception in order to gain the approval of the opposite gender, and to assert their superiority over members of their own. Hence the "glorified booth babe" phenomenon.
A "male version" of the phenomenon wouldn't really be much different, to tell you the truth: the difference is the myth of inherent male intellectual superiority means it's more likely that a girl would be presented as an incompetent phony than a male.
Ah well. Carry on, folks.
I agree with all of this here.
I love the derailing of this meme. So hard!
I first saw someone on Manboobz.com's forums who made a handful of versions, and that was fun, but I thought that was the end of it. While I'm not familiar with Rachel Edidin's work, I'm currently raising my cup of piping hot tea in her honour. It only takes a small change like derailing a stupid, stupid meme to start something big, now if only someone will do it with that bloody STUPID sandwich joke, which insists on not dying!
While poser-geek guys exist, they get called out in small circles, no one has a humiliating and stupid meme about them. It's almost like a virtual wide free pass. It most certainly is gender specific when the meme's picture and caption is usually made to sound like it's a teenage girl. I find it ridiculous and frankly shameless that anyone can attempt to argue this being just about fake geeks when it's clearly gender specific.
Also, this idea that girls pretending to be geeks for attention is something I find to be very juvenile. Okay, I can concede that there are people (men and women) pretending to be geeks, but, at least in the UK, it's something which dies out around the age of 17 or 18. And, many people that age, girls and boys, crave attention. So let them do it until it wears off, who cares if they're insincere? They wont cary it on in their twenties and thirties. Let the baby have their bottle. It only bothers you if you let it.
Women have a much harder time when trying to show that they're enthusiastic for something typically thought of as guys'. This whole "glorified booth babe" attitude is pretty sickening. It's as if some guys think that "DA WOMENZ HAVE INFILTRATED THE CLUBHOUSE! OH NOES!"
Argh! Well, rant over.
That is an incredibly ignorant response and I suggest you educate your self further before you continue in these discussions.
Regarding your concerns about rape, this should shed some light. http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/rape-culture-101/ No one is arguing that is ONLY effects women, but is does effect women disproportionately. Your statistics are wrong.
The industry certainly sexualizes and excludes women. There are very few games that treat women with the same level of respect as the male characters. Female characters are routinely sexualized. Even in Mass Effect, a game lorded for including a female Shepard whole command is never questioned, the other female characters are all given revealing, ineffective, skin tight armour while the male characters are portrayed as strong and powerful rather than sexual.
Women in games are too often portrayed as prizes, as characters who only serve to cater to male gaze. So of course that excludes women. Games like that aren't made with women in mind, and while of course we still play them and can genuinely enjoy them, it's problematic and indicative of a trend in the industry that does not value women as customers.
That's… not at all I what I was saying. Please, re read.
You're right. geek girls everywhere should collectively be cool with the group of insincere geek girls who are doing it for attention even though they're part of the reason why we're viewed so negatively.
I totally see the light, now.
… Yeah, not at all what I was talking about.
I don't believe anyone stated it was restrictive to women.
no one said fake geek guys don't get mocked or criticized. The point of my statement was that the perception of male geek culture is not something that is so weak and shaky that the existence of fake geek guys will negatively effect everyone's view of them.
However, have a fake geek girl toting around, the world only views them as an example as to how insincere geek girls are, and how shallow their interests run.
So yeah. please do not read "less flack" as "no flack", as there's no indication of a percentage, but rather a source of relativity in relationship to the flack that not only fake geek girls receive, but geek girls as a whole.
I have educated myself, perhaps you should actually educated yourself before you attempt to refute my statistics with biased ranting. I also stated that male rape is nearly as high, thus that it is disproportionate.
I will also say that many of the over sexualized female characters were created by females. The adolescent male fantasy Bayonetta, she was the work of a female. Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3 (while still modest looking) was pushed to look sexier by the female developers on the dev team. I must also ask, did you play Mass Effect? Every character in those games wears skin tight armor, the males included. The female characters are also given strong personalities, I've only played the first myself but Ashley was a strong woman, willing to fight who could hold her own with the men and often proved a much more reliable soldier on the battlefield than the male character Kaiden. Liara is highly intelligent and something of a recluse based on the crews distrust of her for her relation to Benezia. And those are just surface elements. Just because they're wearing skin tight armor doesn't automatically mean that they are sexualized and not portrayed as human and as important characters. That especially goes for Liara as I didn't find her sexualized at all, what drew me to her as a character was her calm detachment and her intellect. Each character is portrayed with strengths and weaknesses, including the male characters. The only male portrayed as powerful and not sexualized would have to be Wrex and maybe Garrus, and Garrus himself remains a love interest.
I'm not denying that women aren't sexualized, especially in the gaming community. They are the DOA series is proof of that. I will also agree that the community doesn't value women as customers as majority of their products are intended for male audiences, hence much of the inherent sexuality. I thought the implication was that the industry itself ignores women -as in job wise- which I've found to be not true. But I won't argue the point that they don't value women as customers.
Sorry my comment was to Alasdair and I actually agreed with what you said earlier about the fake geek girl and the world view of her and it's correlation to geek girls. Sorry about that.
The question at hand: how to stop fake geek girls from reflecting so negatively on geek girls?
I completely agree. While I see it as a parody of geek insincerity and I don't think it was created with sexism it ultimately became as such. The assertion that females are more often the phonies when it comes to geek culture is itself a sexist generalization. And whether or not the meme or it's creator intended it to be sexist the end result gives that implication.
There's no quick fix way to stop that, unfortunately. The problem has to be solved from the geek community as a whole by actually learning to be more accepting of it's female members. The effect gets belittle the more accepted we become in this group because currently, a lot of people just want a reason to belittle and ostracize female geeks, and fake geek girls only give them fuel.
No, no. Apologies on me. This new commenting system is quite out of whack.
I can only assume it'll be a lengthy process but if there's a way to make these younger geeks and members of my generation grow up and actually learn something called tolerance and acceptance and the ability to differentiate fake from genuine than I'm up to do it.
Of course. Change doesn't happen over night, and history has shown that acceptance takes a great deal of time.
You're right. There's no better way to promote discussion than to ostracize the other half of the population, as well as those who think differently from you as a means of creating a safe haven harbored on the same exact mentality.
You're so right.
This site would be so much better if people who thought differently weren't on it and providing their perspective, thus eliminating any chance of even providing a discussion in which those who do not know better can actually learn and understand the stance of the other side.
So right.
I don't think anyone on here is trying to state that all those who are new to the geek community are trying to perpetuate an imagery of insincere interest. Getting sucked into something as big as geek culture can be intimidating, and people should be more accepting and understanding of this. However, I believe that people, however, are trying to make it clear that people out there who have insincere interests DO exist, and ARE an issue, especially in relationship to geek girls and their perception within the community.
Just because you're a girl doesn't automatically mean that you're excused from acts of insincerity. And it's frustrating to a lot of geek girls (such as I), to think that we're meant to accept these fake geek girls because they're part of the reason why we're perceived so negatively.
Holy shit bro, are you missing the point or what!
I'm sorry, do you have a problem understanding how basic things like "don't act like you know what groups that you're not a part of go through" work?
I feel like everyone who thinks this meme is an attack on geek girls are missing the point. So it appears as though you're not the only one who thinks someone has it backwards.
Oh shit. Sorry. I didn't realize I was suddenly not a girl. I guess my 34Fs and vagina must have been misplaced today.
I guess you also must have misplaced your reading comprehension when you missed:
'thus eliminating any chance of even providing a discussion in which those who do not know better can actually learn and understand the stance of the other side."
That's exactly what the original meme is. It perpetuates the idea that "geek girls" are fake. If you can't see that then maybe you need to take a longer look at the situation around you, a longer look at how much shit women encounter when they enter a fandom that's predominantly male (like almost everything).
I wasn't saying "you" weren't part of the group… I was saying that you do not understand what Ashe said.
No-one's hushing anyone here… although I would if I could because there's some grade-a shitlordery going on in this here "discussion". What Ashe said was that men come here trying to explain things to women, something they have absolutely no business doing. The only reason they do that is because
a) men are too used to having their opinion matter everywhere, and b) to derail the conversation
Mansplaining assholes add nothing to the discussion and only help to keep it off topic lest the status quo gets challenged.
(Not to say that only men do this… it's also exactly what you're doing here, acting like you know wtf you're talking about. After all, having "34Fs and a vagina" does not give you the sudden ability to speak for all womankind, and to invalidate other women's opinions and feelings.)
Honey, No.
The original meme is about girls who fain interest in geek things as a means of being perceived as cool.
Hints that you receive from the image itself: -The heavily evident "Hipster" attire and look that is often associated with people who do things -to be cool-.
-The unnecessary use of the word "Nerd" written on her hand, insinuating that there's a belief that, to them, there's a need to make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that they are a nerd, that it is something that needs to be known, far and wide. Many people would consider this to be attention seeking, and from there, can be perceived as an attempt at perceived as "cool".
I'm going to repeat what I've stated to someone else because people NEED to understand this about the current situation:
Geek Guys are not under fire because they're seen, as a collective whole, as being fake, and only doing it for attention. Geek Guys, as a whole, are seen as the default. They are seen as the real thing. This is how our society and culture views them.Geek Girls, on the other hand, are dealing with a lot of flack, a lot of which is just not okay and cool. Part of this IS because of the number of girls who are trying to put on a ruse of interest in order to get people interested in them. They are part of the reason why Geek Girls are seen as: A.) Slutty B.) Fake C.) Insincere D.) Ignorant E.) All of the aboveIt sucks, but Fake Geek Guys get less flack because Geek Guys as a whole don't have to worry about their image in that respect. Fake Geek Girls, however, do not have that same sense of leisure.
This is not a meme targeting geek girls. This is a meme targeting FAKE geek girls.
For the love of god, would people understand that? Also, please, could you work on your comprehension skills AGAIN. As my stating that I am a WOMAN does not mean that I am trying to speak for ALL women. I'm speaking MY opinion, and it is YOU and OTHERS that are trying to bring sex into this as a means of creating a correlation to the validity of one's statement.
"Men shouldn't reply to this because they don't know what's going on"
Well I'm replying to this, providing a different perspective, and am not a man. Suddenly because I am not in agreement, my opinion is no longer valid, despite the fact that sex is being made a prerequisite for people to even take the time to read what's being said.
I'm sorry, but you're a bloody hypocrite, and there's literally no reason for me to take anything you're saying seriously anymore. If you can't comprehend that my making it clear that I'm a woman is my making it clear that it's NOT JUST MEN who feel like THIS IS NOT TARGETING ALL FEMALE GAMERS then you're about as dense as a plank of wood.
I agree with essentially most of this, but people who underestimate the kind of power these people have don't quite realize how much it sucks to be already seen negatively, and then have people perpetuate that stereotype. When you have people gunning against you, and already have people who have this very specific idea of you in their mind, and they keep coming across people, though they may be a minority, who enforce that perspective, all it's going to do is make it significantly more difficult for progress to be made.
I'm a strong believer that change needs to happen within the community first. That people need to learn how to be more understanding and accepting of each other. But stereotypes don't exactly make it easier. And to say this kind of thing stops at your teen years is not exactly true. Teenagers are not the only ones who crave attention. Everyone everywhere does. It's just that we're not all willing to sacrifice our sense of self to get that attention that we seek. Insecurity is not restrictive to your teen years.
Well, I was speaking from the perspective of a UKer.
I've never seen anyone over the age of 18 which pretended to be a geek. Even at university, which was a pretty large place.
And you don't have the sudden ability to speak for all mankind either, seriously you are making a massive generalisation here. It's not that "men are too used to having their opinion matter everywhere" it's that jumped up arrogant dicks exist, saying that the majority of me are like this is just as much a gross generalisation as saying women have to prove their geek cred.
"….acting like you know wtf you're talking about."
This point is moot because everyone thinks they know what they are talking abut all the time, including you right now.
There are people who've taken it so far as to include all geek girls but the original intent of the meme itself is not to poke jabs at all geek girls, but "poser" geek girls. Dicks and assholes exist absolutely everywhere, it doesn't, however, mean that this is the intent of the original creator. I don't know exactly how far it is to say the entire meme is terrible if not all those who participate are trying to be sexist and discriminatory against women (kind of like how not all women should be perceived as fake because of a select few who are).
But yes, even being in my mid-20s, I still see people who try to put on airs just to be perceived as more appealing. Peacocking doesn't stop after the teen years.
I don't believe the meme's original intent is bad. But to me, and I admit it's a fairly narrow view, only the sexist shit survives. So, quite frankly, send it to hades! Kill it! Usurp! Twist it! Bend it any which way!
It's like people who STILL try to make that sandwich joke to be "ironic". It may have been ironic, once upon a time. But it's become so corrupted that it really only has one meaning. So, fuck it. Twist them both up, and keep doing it, I say.
I'm not overly romantic about memes' origins or feel much sadness when people do things they like to them. If an apple turns rotten, throw it in the trash.
I agree and disagree. It's not because I'm romantic over it's origins, but because I think that's not addressing the real issue – sexism in the actual geek community. You can keep throwing out the apples that go bad, but they're always going to keep going bad. Eventually you're going to end up in a corner where nothing can be said anymore, because things are going to keep going sour, and keep going bad, and keep going rotten.
I'm a bigger picture kind of person, where I think it's more important to deal with the root of the problem – making sure the community in and of itself becomes more accepting so that you see things like this happening in less frequency.
" only show 'interest' to be perceived as cool/get tail/etc.etc.etc."
Yeah, you still should re-read it if you think that I'm talking about women as a collective, or even implying that it's only women who do this.
Sooooo… try again.
I didn't say you were, but you are aware that we're talking about the geek girl meme right now?
I have no idea what your point is at all in your initial statement anymore.
Okay. This meme here, that we're talking about, is about women who pretend to be nerds. You said it's about people pretending to be what they're not in order to be popular/have sex. I derisively noted the unlikelihood of that in this scenario. See?
@ Brian. The point you are missing is " …to call out those…" which means, to suggest that a certain percentage of the population of geek girls are insincere. If you honestly think this is referring to ALL WOMEN you are either tragically stupid or you are missing the very clearly presented distinction on purpose.
Yeah, you might want to work on your grammar then.
Regardless, your statement doesn't provide any kind of a counter argument to what was presented, sarcasm poorly attempted and all. If you read what I stated, the initial counter point is that it's not targeting newbie geek girls who are not as knowledgeable as those who have been within the culture for significantly longer. What you're doing is picking at semantics, and also trying to insinuate that I'm making some kind of sweeping generalization. Not only that but to try and deny that no woman makes any attempt at changing who they are or how they present themselves to be perceived as cooler or more appealing to the opposite/same sex is laughable.
so yeah,
I don't know why you bothered replying.
Duckface + hipster attire + sharpie on hand = juvenile attention seeker
I fail to understand why that is so hard to understand.
All the other points about there being misogamy in fandom circles or wider society Are valid, but this meme isn't targeting anyone unless they take photos with duckface & try to come off as a cool 13-year-old because they think it's cool to act nerdy as a 13 year old.
Genuine geek women in many circles are put through a situation their male counterparts don't face, and I'm not disputing that. But how many genuine geek women decide to write the word nerd on their hand and take a self-portrait of it?
The community does need to have a honest discussion about misogamy, but using an image of a juvenile that has to write nerd on their hand isn't a good example… unless it actually works to have that discussion, so carry on?
I'm starting to understand that there's an issue with selective reading.
I'm going to jump back in, WAY against my better judgment because I suspect we will just never agree or see eye to eye on this. Which is fine, by the the way, since my feeling is that we just look at this meme in very different ways. So here's my perspective, from my experience.
You say that this meme targets fake geek girls and you see hints of what makes them fake in the image itself. But look, here's a photo of me, circa age 23: http://ow.ly/i/TBSG/original Hipster glasses, showing off a box of Nerds. (Written on my hand? No. But why do you think my friend snapped a photo of me with the candy box?)
When I look at this meme, I see that I could very well have been the face on this meme. And I was treated like I was. People — to be frank, geeky men — treated me like I was fake, insincere, and ignorant. (As for slutty, there is way too much to unpack in that word alone to get into here.) And you know what? I wasn't any of those things. But they assumed I was, and used that assumption as a license to be dismissive of me.
So you say having fake geek girls around reflects badly on you. I say… well, two things.
1) Why does what other people think bother you so much? You know that you are not fake. You don't need other people to validate that. Which is easier to say than it is to internalize — I know that from experience, because I went through ages of being defensive and hating anything that might have made people think I was a poser. Including other girls. But I finally got over that when I realized that no, I don't need the validation of people who I barely know, and who in that short time showed themselves to be jerks. I'm much more secure in who I am and what I like now, and if there are posers out there? That's sad *for them*, and I hope they eventually find hobbies and interests that they can genuinely enjoy. But their existence does not threaten me, and people who are jerks to me *because of someone else's existence* are not people I want to know anyway.
2) Even though *I* think this meme is gendered and sexist and does reflect seriously dickish attitudes towards female geeks as a whole and NOT just posers — something you disagree with, and like I said, we can agree to disagree — even if the butt of this joke is ONLY meant to be posers… I still think it's harmful to ACTUAL female geeks.
It creates and reinforces the idea that it's okay to judge who is and isn't sincere, that it's okay to dismiss people who aren't as knowledgeable, that it's okay to be jerks when you just don't like someone and want them out of your circle. Those attitudes lead to a meme like this. The meme reinforces them. And EVEN IF the only INTENDED target of that attitude is posers, considering how many people assumed that I was a poser, that my friends are posers, that many of the women I know are posers… clearly there is a problem here for actual geeky women. Being a geek and being female is enough for people to assume you are a poser.
That sucks, and it makes women less likely to get involved in geek circles and geek culture, and that's why it's a problem for EVERYONE who cares about geekiness.
This is the problem that people don't seem to realize, and a lot of this is getting into a different topic all together because it's more to do with hipster culture than anything else, but in the same line of breath, still is connected. It's unfortunate for you, but hipsters had/have a bad reputation and a negative image attached to them (sound familiar?). This isn't to say that all hipsters who are apart of this group are:
A.) Insincere B.) Shallow C.) Superficial D.) All of the above
However, the unfortunate part is that those who tend to speak up the loudest, and boast this title the most -are- defined by any if not all of the words listed above (also sound familiar?).
My break down of the Meme itself and the imagery used isn't to say that all people who are apart of the hipster sub culture are this way (Hence my stating "often associated"), but alas, this is the image that Hipster culture has built itself on. The name in and of itself has an implication that it is all about what's "Hip", i.e. what's cool. So for them to even -try- to change their perception as a whole is going to be significantly more difficult.
As for your questions:
1.) This is not about validation, this is not about other people defining me as I am. However, when you can't even go online and play an MMO and outright say that you're a girl without fear of dealing with a slew of misogynistic and sexist behavior, that means there IS an issue that needs to be dealt with, and so long as there's fears like this, there's no reason to be dismissive over it. People should be allowed to live in peace, and the fact that something as basic as the pairing of chromosomes you have, something that you cannot help or change, let alone choose, is something so significant as to trigger hyper aggressive behavior from those who are not apart of your group is not okay. I am completely secure in who I am and my level of geekdom. I was essentially born into the culture, and it's a part of myself that I'm very proud of and no matter how many times I may have to deal with hyper aggerssive behavior, it's not something I'm going to change.
However, again, this does not mean that it's not an issue that should be changed.
It's more than just being perceived as "fake" (which in and of itself, if you deal with on a daily basis can be frustrating, especially if caught on a bad day. To have your credibility questioned because you do not have a penis is not okay), but the idea that you are willing to put out, that you are promiscuous, that you are doing this to get attention and to have guys oogle me, THAT'S not okay. Even if I WERE promiscuous, it is still my decision to make and is not something that a man, geek or not, has the choice to make for me, and if I'm not willing to "put out" as it were, I shouldn't have to deal with a massive backlash because they feel a sens of entitlement to this.
For the most part, the geeks I'm surrounded by are very cool, and very understanding, and the geeks I've come across offline are equally as receptive and genuine (I've already got a very positive in with the Tech guys in my company. weirdly enough it's as if they were able to sniff out that I'm a total geek even though I do not, by any definition of the term, look like your typical geek) and I am very lucky in that respect. But that's not to mean that it's not an issue.
2.) My perspective is different, because I believe the acceptance of those who are insincere is inherently detrimental to geek girl culture as a whole. Why? Because by geek girl culture is constantly under attack BECAUSE people think it is inherently insincere. For us to outright accept those who are not sincere as being any kind of a positive representation of the community as a whole does nothing but enforce it.
Obviously how you are dressed is not a valid way to dictate who is not sincere and who is (for obvious reasons), but in one's rhetoric, which is what a lot of these memes have to do with, you can very, very easily tell. I think the issue is more to do with people often times mixing up a lack of sincerity with just not knowing as much which IS a difference that people should make the effort to acknowledge. If someone makes a mistake in answering a question, it does not inherently mean that they are insincere. People should be more willing to have discussions, and actually allow new comers to be knowledgeable otherwise the culture in and of itself will suffocate and die.
Like I've said previously, the original intent of this meme isn't to target all geek girls, but those are insincere (which I still am not object to), but to try and say that it is because it's expanded because those who are sexist and misogynistic have turned it into a hyper aggressive attack on all geek girls is not okay. We can't constantly try to shut down something because people take an opportunity and use it to their advantage. What SHOULD be done is making a stronger attempt at dealing with sexism in the geek community in general. Things are always going to go sour because we are not effectively learning to deal with the root of the problem. Instead we are getting fixated on the details, and removing those details, but the problem is that at the end of the day, NEW details are going to replace those old ones, and it will continue to be a vicious cycle until no one can say anything or do anything for fear of it being skewed horribly.
Insincere seems to be a new way of saying "other" without seeming close minded. A way of pretending you're fine with difference, but only if the difference is 'sincere'. If difference makes you uncomfortable, it's much easier to say 'insincere' 'fake', rather than speak to the truth of concerns.
Yeah, No. I appreciate you taking the time to read into what I'm stating, but I'm going to hold issues with people who choose to perpetuate a stereotype when I, and many other people apart of the culture, are going to take flack for no reason what so ever, and deal with the backlash of their decision.
@ Ashe Many women are just as sexist as men. The difference is that sexist women feel entitled to be sexist due the the sexism they have received from men.
This attitude, while understandable, is actually hurting the continuing struggle for equality that all women around the world face.
In order for sexism to stop someone needs to stop using it. Women have it in their power to stop using sexism as a tool and as a weapon. They do not have it in their power to force sexist men to do the same. Given that fact, the choice, I would think, would be clear.
The reason I mention this, Ashe, is because I am detecting more than a little venom in the way you have phrased your words.
If you truly want to win your battles (both short term and long) then you must seek to understand your perceived enemy before you seek for them to understand you and the causes you champion.
Seek to understand different types of male sexism and the various sources for it. Religion, for example, is a massive source of divinely sponsored and endorsed sexism, (you are all gonna have to conquer that beast eventually if you really want to be truly free… just sayin.)
Family upbringing is another major factor. Understand who in the family does it come from, and why.
The behavior of certain groups of women is another major factor. I would say other women are almost your own worst enemy. (to prove my point here, go to any high school and ask the popular girls to stop dressing in a super revealing manner, and see what their reaction is.)
Media gets hammered on an awful lot as a source of sexism but I would have to disagree. I am not and have never been a sexist, though I have been keenly aware of it and have had many "free passes" handed to me by various women in my life, I never felt the need to get on that train. I see images in the media but they do not make me sexist any more than a Greek female nude sculpture in an art museum makes me sexist. I find the suggestion absurd. No one that I know who is sexist, is sexist because of the media. They are all, to a man, sexist because Religion tells them that the can be and should be. Think about that for a minute.
(I'm aware that not a full 100% of sexist men are sexist due to religion, and that the number of guys I know who are, is in no way an accurate sample size for the entire population. I am suggesting that the number of guys who are sexist thanks to religion is truly alarming.)
I mention all this because I am a proponent of understanding. Without understanding, you have no hope of winning. Bigotry cannot be conquered with emotion, it can only be overcome with simple, reasonable arguments formulated by logic and informed through understanding.
While I understand that is it often quite hard to set aside your emotions, (and no, I am not making a zing at women with this) it is absolutely critical that you learn to do so, if you want to be taken seriously by the guys that it most matters for you to influence, namely sexist men. Every single emotion fueled outburst a woman has can be guaranteed to prove to sexist men that women are not yet ready for equality, "after all, if she cant even control her emotions…"
I will say in closing, this is not an attack of any kind on women. I am strongly and actively in support of women finding equality in the eyes of men. I am writing this because I see an awful lot of self sabotage that women do that ultimately hurts their cause, and it makes me sad, because it is so preventable and so unnecessary.
With empathy and compassion, Groovy.
Then I think our disagreement comes from this:
I don't think it's okay to be dismissive of a woman who's expressed interest in geek culture because of how you perceive her motives. Or, for that matter, because of what her motives actually are, whether or not I agree with them or happen to find them extremely distasteful.
You think motives are important and that someone who isn't in geek culture for the right reasons is a problem.
And since I sincerely doubt either of us will change our minds, and our views are fundamentally incompatible, I shall bow out. Ta.
Essentially. Intention in actions are everything, and I am not one to defend intentions that I do not agree with.
I'm trying to understand what you're saying. Did you mean "a part", rather than apart as in separate to? Many, if not all contributors to the reclaim the meme movement are part of nerd/geek culture and have suffered from 'faker' stuff. Are you referring more specifically to a backlash going on in reddit? I think 'fake geek' girls are less of a problem than 'fake geek' boys – and generally it's not 'fake' but some other terminology specific to them (arrogant, inexperienced, patronizing)… and frankly I think the number of girls who do geeky stuff but stay closeted because they don't want to be attacked or associated with ugly parts of geek culture is more of a problem.
@facebook-658295430:disqus Geek guys may or may not have a disrespectful meme targeting them (im not gonna waste an hour looking for a picture on the net to prove you wrong, you can look for it if you want to) but they do get beat up at school and they also get beat up when not at school. When not getting beat up, they get picked on by almost everybody who is not part of their immediate group. Geek guys get plenty of abuse, I assure you.
After all this abuse, where do you think it is going to go? Hmm, well usually abuse travels in the direction of from strongest to weakest, so the abuse will either go into the family pet or out onto the interwebs to accost those who cannot directly fight back (which is everybody on the internet). Sometimes this will be in the form of griefing in World of Warcraft, sometime it will be in the form of a stupid internet meme. Either way, the purpose is the same, to make them feel superior to someone.
The pattern and the problem is not unique to geek culture.
I mean, in some ways it sounds like you're blaming 'fake geek girls' for sexual objectification, devaluation of women and patriarchy. I think your placement of blame is a little off. I know the way some women participate in geek culture or general culture makes me feel uncomfortable. I worry about internalized misogyny, about playing into expectations, all sorts of things. That doesn't make any of them fake. It doesn't mean that we have to be BFFs. But I don't think finding some 'fake geek girl' scape goats are going to get rid of the problems women in geek-dom can experience around bigotry, siliencing and invalidation.
@ Calum Syers Go to Camden Town and you will see plenty of over 18 attention seeking.
Also, the sandwich meme is meant to put all women down. Don't think it is the exclusive domain of geek girls to be insulted and abused.
Criticizing geek elitism by making an obscure comics reference: that's beating 'em at their own game.
Indeed. I just wish it didn't y'know.
Um no, if you'd read the rest of our discussion I haven't at all. The meme and its original intent was to parody poseurs of a community. It wasn't aimed at women altogether but fakes who attempt to assimilate themselves into a culture they have no actual interest in. The fact that the meme implies it is only females that can be the dishonest nerds is what makes it sexist and completely dismantles its entire purpose. It is not a reflection of every single woman regardless of how genuine they are.
I don't think your claim about rape statistics is accurate. I would like to see your source for these numbers. Here's the source that I refer to:
Various places on the web. But regardless I will get back in my place because those statistics are actually… well statistics.
They are. And I would posit that the link that @Sarah gave you was not a "rant", but rather an explanation of what the term "rape culture" means. It does contain a statistic, one of the same ones that I provided in my link, only without attribution.
Rape culture is a culture that dismisses or minimizes the seriousness of rape and sexual assault – for both male and female victims. The victims of rape are by no means exclusively women, but women do make up a disproportionate amount of victims. This doesn't make male victims less important – indeed, the idea of rape culture attributes the causes and motivations for the rape of men and women to be inextricably linked. To stop one, you must stop the other. I.e., rape needs to stop.
I know what it was but it kind of went on forever and was a little repetitive thus I called it a rant.
I know what rape culture is. The point I've been trying to get across, with some of my broken statistics was that the male focus of inequality and sexism isn't any less important than a females. Not because I'm male and I'm trying to shut women up by saying "well it happens to us too, thus you're invalidated". But because I think when focusing on issues of sexism and gender inequality that both sides must be looked at equally. Criticism should be levied at both ends both against their opposite sex but also against their own sex. The thing is a girl geek won't be taken as seriously by members of her own sex either. Much as a geek boy won't be taken seriously by his own sex. Especially in high school.
What I want is equality, understanding and not putting your sides problems over the others. That's a big reason I'm not a fan of the MRA because they choose to focus on the ills of their half rather than the ills of the whole.
All of this, agreed. Also that picture of you is shockingly similar to the picture on the meme.
That you're not a fan of the MRA movement makes me slightly more willing to hear what you have to say, since I was wary that you brought up some of their popular talking points in your reply to @Sarah, including their non-factual "statistics" about rape.
But I don't agree with this:
But because I think when focusing on issues of sexism and gender inequality that both sides must be looked at equally. Criticism should be levied at both ends both against their opposite sex but also against their own sex.
It is not always appropriate to attribute fault equally. Gender inequality means by definition that men and women are not treated equally. We're not on a level playing field, here. Women should not be immune from criticism, from men or other women, but neither should women be exclusively criticized, which is what this meme does. It's sexist in its application because it targets only women and implies that only women might want to pretend an interest for some sort of gain. This issue cannot be "looked at equally" because there is not a meme/campaign out there that criticizes geek men for the same thing.
No that's not what brought up my talking points. I've heard what they have to say and frankly I find it misogynistic and according their whole thing I'm an emasculated loser who needs to get my balls back from mommy.
Looking at it that way I actually have to agree with you. I haven't ever even attempted to think of the whole thing like that and the ironic thing is my use of the word inequality was the word itself sitting directly in front of me the whole time that ultimately disproved much of my stance. I'm too that neither should be immune to or from criticism .
I also agree with what it implies and have actually stated that a couple times on this forum. But because of that and the lack of another male counterpart to this meme I must realize that as you said it cannot be looked at equally.
Although my ultimate reasoning behind equality first started when Ashe attempted to shut a male poster down by basically saying his "privilege" makes it to where he cannot understand thus not comment on the matter in any way regardless of what his experiences have taught him. It didn't really connect to the meme at the time but that's ultimately where I went with my whole thing without actually taking a step back and thinking a little more logically.
This has to be the lamest attempt to create a meme I've ever seen.
I'm glad that you are willing to see it that way.
But to expand on this:
Ashe attempted to shut a male poster down by basically saying his "privilege" makes it to where he cannot understand thus not comment on the matter in any way regardless of what his experiences have taught him
Can you see that a person living in our society as a man and a person living in our society as a woman would have some fundamentally different experiences? A man is not likely to be affected by the same kind of sexism that generally affects women. So when he says that he doesn't think that sexism is a big problem, or makes recommendations on how to handle it, he is not operating with the same kind of knowledge and experience that a woman would have. This doesn't mean that his experiences are invalid. But it does mean that they are not more valid than anyone else's.
As a white person, I can say that I have never experienced racial discrimination in getting employment, housing, or services. Would it be fair for me to therefore say that racial discrimination isn't a big deal? My experience is valid for me, but it doesn't invalidate the experience of a person of color, who has likely experienced such discrimination.
I don't think that @Ashe was trying to shut someone down just because he is a man – I think @Ashe was trying to point out that this kind of sexism doesn't have the same impact on him than it does on geek women.
Perhaps you're right. My views were a little narrow. I didn't mean to suggest that geek girls get it when guys don't. After all, I was that geek guy getting bullied at school. Luckily, I was never beaten up, nor was anyone in my immediate circle. So we were lucky.
I still think it's a narrower think in the UK, despite places like Camden. I still have no problem with posers, since they're not harming me personally and I choose not to let it affect me. But, I agree with a lot of what you said.
I still have absolutely no problem with the meme being usurped, as I think this is natural for a lot of memes which have been around for a while, and it displays creativity not to stick to the meme's rigid rules.
But still,
My problem was the fact that it seemed Ashe was asserting that his multiple experiences wherein he has witnessed no acts of discrimination or sexism against other female players in his groups and other places he's played at are invalid. Solely based on the fact that he is a male. But he's never claimed to understand nor given any recommendations beyond "ignore it". Which I've always seen as a simple answer to a stronger problem, I didn't look into his answer as coming from privilege because there are plenty of males and women who would cite the same solution. But I can see where there is an inherent degree of privilege in that solution because he having not seen it nor experienced it does not realize that you can't just ignore it. Regardless I thought Ashe was a little harsh and sensed some venom in the responses to him, mostly because all it seemed like Ashe was saying was "you're male, no matter what you are not credible because you have a penis."
But then again I tend to get a bit of a reaction when someone says "you are a man and you can never understand." Regardless of whether a male cannot understand I still always feel it a bit sexist to imply that, especially considering men can get the same treatment in female circles, hence the reason I asked why I get treated in essentially the same manner when I show interest in female circles. That does however not alter that fact that there is still a level of not understanding. I just don't think people should be invalidated is all, provided they -if having no experience with the issue, don't attempt to understand but as he did attempt to give insight to what he has seen in his own circles.
I will however agree that his saying that it's basically unimportant and people shouldn't "give a crap what the big mean douches have to say" is a bunch of crap. Ignoring a problem and not caring about it just makes the problem worse. You don't ignore the fire on the stove, you try to put it out.
Looking at it though though I could've approached Ashe differently and instead tried to see the intent and for that if you are reading this; Ashe I apologize for having a knee jerk reaction over what you said.
I feel the need to say that I'm not going to be around for the next three days so I won't be able to reply.
^ That was me, BTW. I was trying to highlight a section with the drop down menu up. Herp-Derp computer wiz right here, HYUK! HYUK!
The only thing I would add to that is this:
The commenter that @Ashe was responding to probably isn't Superman. What I mean by that is that he doesn't have super-hearing or X-Ray vision, or any kind of enhanced senses. So, even though his experience of not having witnessed any examples of sexism in his own geeky circumstances is completely valid – it doesn't necessarily follow that there were actually no instances of sexism.
I don't like trying to speak for @Ashe, but if I were replying in the same context as @Ashe, I would say that because men and women are impacted differently by sexism, men might not be as adept at noticing when it does occur. And since their experience in that area will usually be different from the average woman's experience, they might not see sexism in the same way, and therefore might not recognize it as such.
So, the same way you have an unpleasant reaction to the phrase "You're a man and you'll never understand", I have an unpleasant reaction to the phrase "Well, I've never seen it happen."
I don't think there's a problem with hatred of marriage in fandom circles. But then I don't think misogamy is a problem, I'm a misogamist myself. I think the misogyny in the "fake geek girl" meme is a problem though.
no, the reason "real" geek girls are viewed negatively is because machista asshole geek dudes with an inferiority complex are giant sexists. how are you going to blame other women for what a bunch of man-children are doing?
I like your theory, but I don't think you're accounting for the resentment that is especially directed at women 'pretenders' trying to enter male spaces.
I'd press a little more at your suspicion that these geeks struggle with social interaction (with women especially) and are fiercely protective of the niche they've carved out for themselves.
There's a definite whiff of misogyny here, an instinct to lash out when they feel their space is being encroached on by the normals. Feeling they've been 'rejected' by the mainstream for failing to conform to the ideal masculinity that is rewarded there, and having a certain view of women as a result – all big factors underlying the ugly + misogynistic atmosphere certain fan communities are struggling with at the moment. You're maybe aware of what's been going down in the gaming community the last few months. Again, women getting a lot of nasty push back whenever they try and have a voice in that space. Male fans really don't want to hear it. Same in the comic book community, same in comedy, same in the scientific atheist community.
These boy clubs which have a history of attracting social outcast dudes. They don't want women coming in and pretending to know about it, these women have no inkling of what these guys have suffered through, the rejections, the bullying, the mockery. 'The Geek' is still the butt of the joke, still largely seen as the unpopular spotty plump kid with glasses who reads sci-fi and can't get a date. They see 'their' culture being taken away from them and exploited by the pretty and popular who have never been bullied or been through what they've been through, utterly miserably high school experience, day after day, with only Tolkien and Asimov and co. for company.
I'd say it comes down to suffering and that shared experience of humiliation, bullying, thwarted masculinity – all tied with a bow of anxiety and resentment towards women. THAT'S the shared 'personality type and disposition', that's the 'language' of common experience they share. And boy do they hate women trying to get in on that.
I don't think this is restricted to sci-fi or comic books or gaming – any field will have experts who want to talk down to new-comers or people who in their view don't know enough or aren't authentic or whatever. It's a mark of insecurity, they need to assert themselves over other people.
In geek communities, where guys have already experienced a life-time of being shunned by the pretty + popular mainstream, they're going to be fiercely protective of their turf. I well understand what Steven's saying – going into a new fandom can be so much fun, but there are always THOSE people who want to make it very clear they are the 'real' fans.
Yes indeed, well said. All I'd add is that a woman can expect to be treated with a lot of resentment for trying to enter these kinds of exclusive male spaces, while I don't think it's correct to say a man entering a female-dominated space (e.g. the Twilight fandom, say), can expect the exact same type of shunning.
Groups separated by gender will behave differently when a member from the 'other side' arrives in their midst – men of course have their own specific struggles when trying to get into female-dominated spaces. But the history of women trying to be taken seriously politically, in the sciences, etc., really needs to be taken into account in this discussion. I do like the equalising spirit behind what you're saying: 'both genders have idiot poser types in their ranks', but the slapping down women get is not identical to that which men encounter. It's a privilege issue.
Damn right!
well said. thorough and detailed.
I think that's the best view to have. Unfortunately, it can feel pretty crushing when the bulk of the community creates an unfriendly atmosphere for women and makes it clear it doesn't want to hear what the female fans think about, say, the depiction of women in that fandom.
What's happening in the comic book, gaming and atheist/sceptic communities at the moment are good examples of this. 'Ignore the bad apples and seek out welcoming people' is great, but what if the whole tone of the community as set by bad apples who do not want women encroaching on their special sacred escape-from-reality dude space?
i can picture that with gaming club/store people. it's sad. and baffling. again, when i was younger, we spent half our time lamenting the deep down knowledge that we had zero social currency when it came to the opposite sex.
i do wonder where so much toxicity and hostility comes from
'being a nerd as to like many things a lot and to crave them to their finest detail, and both are intellectual pursuits in depth. It's about passions, about loving and living them.'
Unfortunately, geeks are used to being a downtrodden subculture of social rejects – and talking about comic books, sci-fi, fantasy, D&D, etc. – geeks have traditionally been characterised as males who perhaps had a hard time socially in high school with being bullied, they maybe don't conform to what mainstream culture feels a desirable archetype of masculinity is, and they struggle with social interaction (with women particularly).
So the geek issue IS gendered, because of what geeks have been traditionally thought of – bullied outcasts, males, specialist interests, awkward with females. A 'fake geek' who is a conventionally attractive jock-type guy encroaching on geek culture and usurping it is bad. A fake geek female is about ten times worse and more threatening. An ATTRACTIVE fake geek female is basically the worst conceivable offence – because she is the ultimate representation of the pretty popular mainstream which has made geek life (and sex life) absolute hell.
A 'poser geek' who is a conventionally attractive jock-type guy encroaching on geek culture and usurping it is BAD.
A poser geek female is about ten times worse and more threatening.
An ATTRACTIVE poser geek female is basically the worst conceivable offence – because she is the ultimate representation of the pretty popular mainstream which has made geek life (and sex life) absolute hell.
i totally get that. and i can picture (and probably was, back in my youth) being competitive with other guys (face it, it is, on any playing field, the only way men have to demonstrate masculinity or viability or acceptability–thats drummed into us pretty young). i just don't get why guys would be so uninviting/hostile/beliggerent/mysoginistic to the girls. especially a newly curious, or "novice" geek girl. a huge opportunity to show off, look knowledgable or "cool"; to have the social currency of possessing something someone wants.
an example: when i was a teen, if a girl came up and told me she was totally into british comedy (which was geeky back then) because she had liked a monty python movie she saw, would i choose to:
impress her with my knowledge of british comedies and invite her over to watch recordings of flying circus epsiodes, blackadder and the goodies
berate and mock her for being a poser and not knowing anything about real british comedy beyond a popular movie. and then accuse her of being a fake or pulling a fast one on me before summarily dismissing her.
'a huge opportunity to show off, look knowledgable or "cool"; to have the social currency of possessing something someone wants.'
They are showing off. To other guys in their group. That's who they want respect from, those are the people they value and esteem.
Your novice geek girl – especially if she's conventionally attractive – is a potent symbol of the mainstream to many of these guys. The mainstream that rejected them (on precisely the grounds you're talking about – performance of masculinity). They don't want to introduce the girl to 'their space' and make them at home – it's THEIR space, their retreat, their escape. It's the one place they don't get judged for being a nerd, the reverse, they score points putting n00bs in their place and flaunting their specialist knowledge.
What you describe is the desire to have a human connection with the 'novice geek girl' – these guys want her OUT. They don't see her as a geek, she is a female first off, and the only females they like are masturbatory aids in their comic books or video games. This is a grouping of guys who do not know how to talk to real-life women, and I think struggle to see them first as human beings.
You know many guys who do duckface?
Ah, you made the no-no of tell women not to get upset about it.
Well said.
'My personal reality conflicts with the assertion that…'
Ah, if I had a penny for every time a white/straight/cis dude said this while non-white/male/straight/cis people were talking about THEIR experience of reality.
what a sad reality. it makes me think of my nephew. he's about 20, and unfortunately a perfect stereotype of the sort of nerd that is made fun of–he's a computer genius, a junkie level online gamer, grotesquely overweight, pasty grey, lives in a basement, survives on soda and pizza and is slightly cross-eyed with coke bottle glasses.
now, i understand his liking the gaming world where he excels and can be anyone–anyone other than his physical meat self. the thing is, he is like you describe–seems to despise women and thinks of them as inferior and cummbersome in his gaming world.
unfortunately he overlooks that these girls are into things that he has valuable attributes in.
a couple of years ago, i went to an anime club. i was significantly older than most of the folk, so i felt a bit like an anthropologist/fly on the wall. these people were not the competative, out trivia you kind. they were just very enthused about anime. more than half were women, and in general, i would have to say, the guys seemed a lot dorkier than the gals. and yet they enjoyed a circle of friends and popularity based on the valued, shared attribute of enjoying anime to the degree of learning a bit of japanese language and culture and watching obscure shows. it was heartwarming.
in my early twenties, i had long drifted from my biggest geek obsession, which was comics. i moved into a house with 5 or 6 other people. there were the two attractive kind of post-punk girls who were all about comics, and their biggest thing was Sandman (which was contemporary at the time). i drifted from comics for several reasons, but one of them was they were not conducive to being able to go to the movies with a girl. at all– i never once met a girl who read comics when i was young. so this experience was profound. to this day i think of neil gaiman of helping geeky things out of the closet and for attracting more women. i still remember at that point in time, being aware of this change beginning in culture and feeling it was going to be so much easier and funner to be a geek and a geek guy for young people than it had been for me. part of that came true–most geeky things are very mainstream. i never would have imagined this clannishness or gender hostility that seems relatively common. there must be something that has gone terribly wrong with us as a culture
I feel for your nephew, it's a really easy thing to slip into that, especially with immersive online games like WoW, you can build up a powerful sense of identity, playing offers a lot of pay-offs for your investment (emotional, time, money), it creates a pretty powerful prosthetic for face-to-face interaction, which is scary, particularly for someone with body image issues.
Seems to be the nature of bullying that often the person bullied will pile their frustrations and resentment onto a particular figure that they may feel is the REAL cause of their problems, and they become the bully. I think it's understandable, but like you say, it's only hurting them more, and making women feel unwelcome, and it could be a different scenario if these guys felt more secure in themselves.
With anime fandom – I think there is quite a different dynamic at play in female-dominated fandoms or communities where women have really flooded in and it's reached an equal balance. I think it's definitely an identity issue, and it's about spaces where insecure guys have flourished and found a voice, and they do not want that disrupted or taken away from them, the don't want it to become like the rest of the outside mainstream world where they where bottom of the heap. I do understand why they're so fiercely protective, I do have a lot of sympathy in terms of the pressure men are under from a young age to be something, and the shit they get when they don't conform to that. Shutting women out isn't the answer though.
I don't know why it's automatically assumed she is being teased because she is female. There are stupid women who try too hard, same as there are stupid men who try too hard. That's all this is. This article is the result of oversensitivity IMHO. Women are discriminated against in "nerdy" cultures, but this is not an example of it.
Sounds like those guys who think they own everything should be under fire then, not newcomers of either gender. It seems like begging acceptance to attack your enemy's enemy. Why would you want to be taken seriously by such people, without tackling their illusions first?
The "fake geek girl" label thing is kinda like McCarthyism, isn't it?
What, are we going to denounce women who don't have the geek cred as "traitors" or "fifth columnists" next?
Your ability to discern people's motivations and intent is truly a gift. If only more people had this skill, we would be able to heap scorn upon deserving people much more effectively.
I love how every comment that disagrees is voted down. This is such a good example of proper discourse. [/sarcasm]
I have news for all of you. The "persisting idea that tells people it's ok to nastily call women out for not being 'authentically geeky' enough", as you put it, doesn't exist. Females who try to hang out with the geek crowd will be accepted whether they're geeks or not.
See also: dead unicorn trope.
I'm curious, are you a woman?
You get voted up on just about every other website, sweetheart, don't feel too hard done by.
Personally, I think guys who take issue with women in geek culture are acting out of the same insecurity I share myself, which is that I often doubt I will ever meet the woman who regards the intensity of my commitment to filmmaking and my success in the field as irresistibly sexy. Nor the tabletop role-playing games I've written. Nor the science-fiction web series I created.
I'm sure there is an urgent biological demand to know that the things we do will lead to reproduction, because otherwise natural selection would have fallen apart long before now. Living outside that safety net probably has a detrimental effect on my sanity (and yours, gentlemen)…
…but we do, and controlling the women in geek culture does not solve the problem. In fact, MORE women in geek culture is the only thing that will help! If you find that you are deceived by a woman in a sexy X-men costume, then you are probably having the same problem in other areas of your life. You're asking geek culture to be a more controlled environment, where the deck is stacked in your favor.
And it is. Geeks like some of the same things you do. Sometimes. As geeks, a loosely-defined common interest is the only thing that defines us. In that fact alone, your odds of meeting someone you can relate with are improved. In all other ways, geek culture has always promised to be about acceptance.
Guys, the need to control is a totally ineffective reaction to fear. To make my point I will invoke the wisdom of Bruce Lee, manly problem-solver: "Be like water."
Offer no resistance. Flow over, around, and between. As the river does, do not attempt to move the boulder. Simply let it be, allow it to adjust you without thought or conflict, and you will find the ocean.
If you tried to move the boulder, the river would stop.
All throughout high school, I wished there were more girls who thought Star Wars was cool. Now there are! My own work has since cannibalized and repurposed my fandom – but if I were still into collecting Star Wars action figures and stalking White Wolf at GenCon, there would be no stopping me from introducing myself to every bubbly Dr. Who fan I meet. Why wouldn't you? What jerk has a problem with a cute girl who only needs a flintlock pistol and a parasol to feel happy?
And what idiot thinks that girl isn't a geek? How is that different from me and the spaceman helmet I used to hide in when I was a kid?
And by the way, most of them would tell me I'm a goofball. Most of them would not be interested. That's not a new phenomenon to geek culture, guys. And it's not unfair, and it's not a problem exclusive to nerds. That's LIFE. Rejection is part of the process. It just is.
No amount of fascist culture policing will change that, gents. If you want to improve your chances of success, there's only two things you can do: Improve yourself, and meet more girls.
This is a cultural shift that allows you to do both. For this reason alone, you should accept it without reservation.
And certainly without resistance.
Let's be honest, here. All this to-do is about gender control, and gender control is always about the fear that other men will take "your" women. Guys, they are not "your" women. They never were.
The last time I was at a convention and I saw a pretty girl I liked, I bought her a nice set of 8 sided dice and asked her to come and play my game. No agenda, no passive aggression… just a gift that I knew from the get-go was a little goofy and far too earnest, so I played it that way. And you know what? She smiled.
It made my fucking day.
I NEVER would have gotten away with that ten years ago. Now, that girl is one of my best friends.
Dudes, Bruce Lee knows how to get shit done. The Way of the Dragon will not fail you, but you must give yourself to it completely. Be like water, and everything will work out as it should.
I believe Robin Scherbatsky expresses my emotions on your helpful suggestion best:
I think you've all completely misunderstood this meme. The idea isn't that "All girls should stop trying to be geeks/nerds because we know they never can be". That's not how it is at all. It's about the girls who actually do fake their "geek" ways to try and appear attractive. Idiot Nerd Girl is a parody of girls who are faking their way around as if they are nerds, not about any girl who wants to be one.
Come on, stop looking for reasons to call sexism, and start reading further into these things. First, it was all about how we couldn't use the word "black" without being called racist, now we can't apply the same jokes to females as we can to males because it makes us sexist. Ironically, it would actually be sexist if we only made jokes about men – or would that be ok?
No one's absolving the responsibility of the men in the geek community who go out of their way to be sexist, oppressive and abusive. But the issue at hand has to do with female geek imagery, and when you have people going out of their way to play a stereotype, the world is going to be focused on those stereotypes. So please pay more attention to "Part of the reason". You could even, you know, go through my other posts that outright state that the core of the problem is sexism within the community, but I guess it's easier to just disregard those little tidbits of information, too, huh?
This is what you are doing. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain
FYI – you can be a feminist and still dress revealing; although I'll admit that women are big perpetrators of slut shaming, which must stop. But the statement that the media has not encouraged or caused sexism… wow you couldn't be more wrong.
You sound like me when I was 16.
I am so glad I am not 16 anymore.
Geeks' getting beat up at school (mostly by other guys!) has nothing to do with targeted sexism. Entirely separate issue/problem.
It's not the "geek" part that is the problem for geek-girl haters, it's the "girl" part. I have never seen and will probably never see a meme about a "fake geek guy." What even is that?
Right. And you sound like me when I was a hyper-entitled self-righteous child.
I'm so glad that I'm not a hyper-entitled self-righteous child anymore.
I just wanted pop in and give you a giant kudos for everything you posted. It's nice to see someone being logical here, instead of throwing a hissy fit over what is essentially a joke.
And before someone goes and assumes that I'm a man too, I'm not. And it's pretty sad that I even have to bring it up, because shooting down someone's opinion because of their sex is, you know, sexist.
No Pascale, Im not wrong. Sexism started much earlier than mass media can possibly be blamed for. Wake up, its called religion.
lol. you chicks are you're maturity level and ability to have a discussion like adults. its precious.
This is what you are doing. #3 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lalala
Yeah, there always has been a problem with selective reading and selective listening when dealing with those who don't want to give up their narrow view of the world, as it might require them to admit that they were wrong, give up being self righteously bigoted and other fun things that go along with gaining maturity.
On a side note, I have greatly enjoyed reading what you have had to say on here. I think you are the only person here who is actually awake and paying attention to the whole and total issue, as opposed to the convenient, one dimensional feminist party line that most on here seem to regurgitate.
It cracks me up how much your comments have been down rated. It just proves to me how unwilling feminists are to look at all sides of the issue or heaven forbid take any responsibility.
Well, every feminist I have ever spoken too wasn't interested in discussion, they were interested in cramming their rhetoric down my throat. (and every one else in earshot, which is usually about a quarter mile)
I'm really not surprised that most actual discussion on here is squashed.
I'm sorry that was too long and / or hard to understand. Here is the easy version.
Take responsibility.
No it is directly the same problem. Abuse is abuse, it changes form as it passes through people. The geek guy who got beat up cannot pass abuse back to the bigger and stronger guy who beat him up, so he must channel that pain into another outlet. Sexism is an easy, easy outlet. Think about it, seriously. This is a very real phenomenon. Pain does not stop until you (you/ me / everybody) stop passing it along.
Also, all you people on here are getting hung up on the meme. The meme is trivial. The issue that creates the sentiment that makes someone want to create a mean picture is the real core problem. Focus on what is important.
I love this comment, clear, eloquent, to the point and as far as experience has taught me, true.
What I love more is how much it is down rated. Heaven forbid we have clear and rational thought muddy the waters of our little hive-mind.
The victim shares responsibility and thus has a responsibility to mitigate the outcome.
(an unpopular concept in today's victim coddling society, I know, but that does not make it any less true. Argue against it all you like, the universe always wins.)
Certainly right! In fact, asshole girls will do things like down rate perfectly valid comments and arguments that they find distasteful or that are currently unpopular. :p
@FrayedMachine:disqus Wow this is beautifully said! You are right on here! I believe that the anonymity of the internet as well as the youth of the perpetrators plays a large hand in discrimination towards geek women in particular. There definitely exists the sense of emasculation that you spoke of, where a particularly immature guy feels deeply threatened by being shown up at an activity that he feels is his domain by a girl.
I have experienced this both personally (thankfully when I was much younger, and not anymore, or I would be in constant pain as my wife pwns me in pvp. :P ) as well as witnessed other guys doing it.
Its way more than a theory. It is definitely fact, and definitely true. Of course, not true for all cases, but I shouldn't need to specify that, oh wait…(looks around the page at other comments) … but sadly I do.
Being a woman is an inherent trait that you can't [entirely] hide. Being a geek is a social phenomenon and what defines what a geek is can change over time. Geeks are perceived as being physically weaker, while women actually are, and this trait is exploited. And even if people magically stop harassing geeks, you think that all of a sudden people, geeks or not, will stop harassing women in turn? Laughs!
And hello, the fact that the meme exists only illustrates that the problem also exists. So yes, the meme is a problem.
@allreb:disqus and in fact @99% of the women on this site.
"…And frankly, feeling threatened or frustrated is no excuse for being a jerk…"
What is this crap? I see this everywhere on this site. Why do you women keep saying this and that is no excuse?!
Who the hell said anything about using anything as an excuse!!
It isn't about excuses. It is providing YOU an understanding of the point of view opposite your own. Ya know, the point of view you claim you want to get through to!
You cannot seriously expect to spit at someones opposing point of view, (no matter how much you disagree with it) and then demand that your point of view be heard! This is absurdity.
Wow. Could you please properly read peoples comments before you jump down their throats?
Awesome reply.
lol at 12 downratings for saying thanks. Petty girls ftw.
lol this is just all too funny. I came here to show support, but now I have popcorn and am enjoying the show.
In this corner, FrayedMachine, the only woman on here with a good view of the big picture and a keen ability to formulate coherent and rational arguments.
In the other corner, the bubble-gum-feminist-club with their canned, tired dogma and their favorite catch phrase "If it ain't popular, we wont hear it!"
Let the games begin!
@allreb:disqus So clearly, "have yet to hear of a situation where …" = "never ever ever ever happens anywhere in the universe! EVER!"
You're perceptive super-powers are finely tuned.
This is fantastic! Cheers!
lol. clear argument is rude? More like, taking a stand contrary to the popular opinion is rude. Never mind that you obviously haven't even been reading and comprehending (It doesn't count if you fail at the second part) what FrayedMachine has been saying. What is her point? Like I said, not even reading.
lol, don't worry, she didn't read it to being with.
Just for the record, I do consider myself a feminist. I just don't believe that title means that I'm required to defend something that I see as bullshit, whether done by men or women. Bullshit and dumbshit doesn't exactly make progress happen. I guess things aren't so easily black and white for me. heh.
Man, You're so right. Because what I'm saying is that everyone should have to do a test to dictate the level of sincerity in their actions to prove whether they're a real geek or not.
oh wait, no.
No, no that's not at all what my point was. To try and state that because you cannot outright PROVE someone's attentions, you should, in turn, accept everything is about the laziest thing I've ever heard. Progress doesn't happen by saying absolutely everything is okay. This is how slippery slopes are formed.
Sincere interest is great! Let's teach those who are truly trying to get into the community, who truly have any sincere and genuine level of interest in anything geek related.
This does not, however, mean that it should automatically be condoned when people are not sincere in their interests. A lot of the times, those who are insincere are pretty transparent in that respect.
Greatly appreciated.
Again, just saying that I am a feminist, I just don't support bullshit because a vagina and a pair of tits are attached to it. I'm not going to try and argue that what I'm saying is fact or that everyone should and has to agree with me. Though, yes, I will admit that my more neutral comments (like about how change does not occur over night) getting down voted are absolutely baffling to me. It just opens up yet a new gate way for people to be passive aggressive and ostracizing someone for being different. It's not different than guys who harass girl gamers on the internet, to be perfectly honest -shrugs-
Except the meme is not about all geek girls but those insincere and fake in their interests as a means of catching more attention. Those who take this meme and turn it into a sexist meme by targeting ALL geek girls are the problem.
This isn't about newcomers, and this is not about dismissing the responsibility of the men in the geek community who are sexist. I really, really, really wish people would stop assuming that by acknowledging the issue with fake geek girls is not, at all, being dismissive of the greater issue. It's acknowledging another facet to the problem. That. Is. All.
You really don't get it. This would never happen with a guy. There is no "fake geek guy" meme. What would that even look like? The kind of subculture where men are expelled and/or targeted for shaming as part of the culture itself just doesn't exist. Do your self a favor and look up shaming as part of sexism.
So back when I was 16 when stuff like this came up I thought women were just bitching and ignoring the "real" issue. Hence my "you sound like me when I was 16″ comment. But women's being targets IS the real issue here. Not geek culture and who's fake about it. Hell, take sports. Do you know how many female sports fans have to PROVE that they are real sports fans and not just trying to "be one of the bros"? Same shit, different culture.
Not going to bother retyping this.
Ill attack this from another direction with an example for you, Nicole. Your dad comes home from a hard day and snaps at you, verbally. This irritates you. Your little brother comes home and you snap at him, because you are still feeling irritated by what happened earlier with your dad. This is the same phenomenon that I am talking about above, albeit on a much smaller scale, and it is something that I feel confident enough to say that we have all experienced in some form or another, probably every day.
My point is, until people stop and say, "hey, dad just snapped at me for no reason. I wonder what the cause of his irritation is?" (IE. seek understanding) rather than "hey, screw you dad for snapping at me for no reason!" (IE. becoming defensive), we will not make any progress in combating abuse, regardless of the flavor.
The meme is a trivial SYMPTOM of a larger PROBLEM. The meme, in and of itself, is therefore trivial.
Is it not possible to gain understanding and first hand knowledge through close observation, empathy and vicarious experience?
I apologize for the blanket "every feminist", so allow me to amend and clarify my statement.
"…the great majority of feminists…"
Well, I think you first need to decide how you plan to gain understanding. Is it first hand, or vicarious experience? It can't be both. And it is completely possible to pay close attention, exercise empathy and listen to other people's experiences. I think that it's very advantageous to do so when you want to more fully understand what those experiences are, and how they shape perceptions and attitudes.
But it is impossible to really live someone else's experience, because we are all different people. Those differences are partly comprised of different attributes, and people with those different attributes will be treated differently by society. It's not fair. It's not just. But that is the reality we live in. So, just as I will never know what it's like to live life as a person of color, so too will cis-men never understand what it's like to live life as a cis-woman. This inability is a kind of limitation that we cannot overcome – we simply have to do our best with our empathy, compassion and values.
Thank you
Ah, lecturing women about taking responsibility for something they have directly experienced over their entire lives, and YOU HAVE NOT.
Have you ever considered the possibility that the first seemingly obvious idea that pops into your head ISN'T always the Absolute Rational Truth? Seriously. Your penis won't drop off if you try listening first and at least CONSIDERING the perspectives of people who have more experience of this than you, instead of immediately jumping in and attempting to dominate the conversation.
Pascale didn't say 'sexism started with the mass media', s/he said that it encourages it and causes incidents of it.
When I was at school in the 90s (before the internet had really caught on) I was into Star Trek and B5 and Final Fantasy and didn't really care about my appearance. I didn't have any female friends and got severely bullied by girls for my nerdiness. The geek boys in my class were my friends. Even though they weren't interested in me as a girlfriend, they accepted me for my interests and never questioned whether I was 'fake' or not.
Eventually I got to uni and found some girl friends I had something in common with, but before that I'd got the impression that male geeks were my friends and allies. It's so upsetting to me now to see the hostility that so much of online geek culture has towards girls just for being female.
No, that was a textbook mansplain. Lecturing women about things they BY DEFINITION have more experience of than you.
But the trouble is, girls tend to be assumed to be insincere until they prove otherwise which is not the case for the male geeks, and are held to MUCH higher standards of 'authenticity'
Really, I'm not seeing any patronizing statements in what Groovy said. What I am seeing is a lot of common sense, intelligence and truthful statements given with honesty and compassion. All I'm seeing from you is what Groovy said you're doing, going "lalala". But whatever, ignoring strong realities apparently isn't popular opinion and would ultimately point the mirror at the woman as well. Ironic that sexism and vitriol aimed at men from women is deemed acceptable. I thought feminism was about equality, I fail to see the equality in essentially ignoring the sexism of women, including sexism aimed at women from women, but the moment a man even so much as acts mildly sexist it's the end of the world.
And any man or who even brings to light the inherent sexism of women is shot down, ignored and are themselves considered sexist.
I dunno, men are often displayed as unintelligent apes who lack any emotion save for being in love with cars, tools and beer and are generally displayed as horny morons. While women are very often displayed as intelligent, independent, much more capable and socially adept than the male. Also isn't that inherently misandric that men have to have the man's diet soda? I mean the Bic "For Her" pens are deemed sexist but a diet soda that doesn't emasculate a male is still misogynistic, how does that work?
What do pens and soda have to do with anything?
And you won't grow a penis if you at least listen and consider the perspective of an outside source. Especially if that someone brings up as many valid points as he did. All you're doing is jumping someone's throat just because you don't want to hear what they have to say. If anyone is "immediately jumping in and attempting to dominate the conversation" it's you.
Agree with this totally, and I think part of the problem is the prescriptive gender norms that get foisted on us. I think there is a huge amount of frustration and resentment in these guys, towards women especially, because often they fail to live up to the archetype of masculinity that society pushes on them.
(Please bear in mind this is not to discount or in any way detract from the unique pressures that girls and women are under, rather I think examining the underlying causes of this misogyny online usually tends to lead back to formative years, the daily reality of being bullied in high school for failing to tick the masculinity boxes)
I think Groovy touches on something important in terms of the 'food chain' of lashing out at weaker people and othering them to bolster up and reinforce your own insecure identity. These guys bullying women online and making sandwich jokes are compensating because they feel their special escape place of online-dudedom is being encroached on. The identity they've managed to put together outside of the mainstream is, in their eyes, under threat from the 'norms' (i.e. women – who in their view define the masculinity they couldn't perform)
Woops. No, I'm afraid this is wrong. You can't tell a historically oppressed group to calm down and 'show compassion' and everything will magically get better – particularly if you are a member of the group that has been doing, and continues to do, the oppressing.
Sometimes people have been put through so much and for so long, they need to be angry, they need to shout, they need to cry. You can't then come in at tell them to be quiet and be the bigger person and reach out to the group still making their lives hell. I see where you're coming from (I think), in the sense that passing hate on is poisonous (not what Ashe's comment was doing in any case), and forgiveness is healing, but you can't put that burden on to the oppressed group.
People in positions of power over others do not have much incentive to listen, and more often than not they, a) honestly can't see what the oppressed are complaining about because the status quo has always benefitted THEM, so they are privilege blind, or b) they refuse to admit there has been any wrong-doing, because they want to maintain power.
'at least listen and consider the perspective of an outside source.'
Oh right, you mean what women have to do basically every day. Look, boys are taught from a young age to speak up and be assertive because as males (white, rich, cis, straight males in particular), their thoughts and opinions count the most-est. Female spaces like this are rare online, where women can talk about their experiences of sexism and not get dogpiled by dudes blustering in to tell them all the ways their account of their daily lived experience (markedly different from a man's daily lived experience) is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
And it's impossible for hypothetical dad to just be an asshole? And for sexist geeks to just be sexist? You are assuming that this meme was created by someone as a direct result of abuse they've received. Unless you are psychic, you have no right to make that claim. Maybe the creator is just. sexist. And maybe geek culture is a boys' club.
" Geek Guys are not under fire because they're seen, as a collective whole, as being fake, and only doing it for attention. Geek Guys, as a whole, are seen as the default. They are seen as the real thing. This is how our society and culture views them.Geek Girls, on the other hand, are dealing with a lot of flack, a lot of which is just not okay and cool. Part of this IS because of the number of girls who are trying to put on a ruse of interest in order to get people interested in them. They are part of the reason why Geek Girls are seen as: A.) Slutty B.) Fake C.) Insincere D.) Ignorant E.) All of the aboveIt sucks, but Fake Geek Guys get less flack because Geek Guys as a whole don't have to worry about their image in that respect. Fake Geek Girls, however, do not have that same sense of leisure."
I should just make a macros for this.
> that it's okay to dismiss people who aren't as knowledgeable OH WOOPS LOOKS LIKE WHAT YOU WERE DOING
High five. THIS so much. Because, even if women experience sexism, we totes don't know that it's not really and all these dudes seen to know better. *SARCASM* But seriously, why can't we have spaces on the interwebs to talk about girly geek stuff without some patronizing dudes telling us we're wrong because, despite then never experiencing sexism like women do, they just tell us to shut up anyway.
Explain how there is any logic in what your saying, until then you look like an average redditor.
Srsly? Women criticizing a meme with a sexist outlook on women. Lol, you so classy. Never give up on looking like a privileged sexist asshole on the internet. You make life inherently more entertaining by telling women who experience sexism moreso than you that that never experience it because you, an man, say so. Shine on you paragon of wit and understanding.
Internet high five.
Lol, did you just try to blame/shame women for "asking for it" in a goddamn meme?
LOL wrong poster.
How the hell? Look, THIS IS A SITE FOR WOMEN. LADIES. THE EMVAGINA'ED, THE 2 XX's, FEMALES. PEOPLE OF THE GIRL PERSUASION. Considering how women have been constantly ostracized for sharing or even having opinions, your stupid-ass argument is bullshit. Your "perspective" is the societal norm, and widely embraced, and you will never know what it's like to be female. We face social and societal pressure, scrutiny and harassment that you will probably never face.
LOL you're a lady AND you mansplain. Nvm, enjoy your ignorance.
Nevermind that you don't get that the meme rolls in slutshaming in implying that geek girls are only geeky to get guys. Or that girls can't understand geekery or geek culture. But you seem to think being a slut isn't okay.
Just to offer support. I tried to join a tabletop gaming group last week, and because I was kidding around with my friend at the table, I was an "idiot nerd girl" for being unfamiliar with the rules specific to that game (It was GURPS, and I've always played D&D). I was told my elven rogue was too slutty for wearing light, scant clothing to move around in silence, and was eventually told the leave because I didn't "get" that the game was serious and that I should play with a girls only group so "my character could have hookups and not ruin the game with romance." Yet that was never my intention? Just because I was play-flirting with the girl who I came with's character I was "not focused on the story." I flirted *once* during the duration of the game (with le-friend's dwarf fighter for interspecies lulz), and made jokes with said friend as I was at the table. I was told I made players uncomfortable with the "sexy" jokes I told, yet the dudes next to me made rape jokes and dick jokes with each other, and no one batted an eyelash.
I was labelled a "poser" for being girly and casual at a table with a longtime friend, who I felt comfortable with. I tried not to be to rude with my jokes and to break the ice, what do I get.
Jack, of the shit persuasion. And a dose of sexism.
Try reading feminist blogs and TALKING TO US IRL. Why, god why do you and the chronically uninformed like you even believe that all feminists "r bad guiez." Just, please, do some good with your interbutts connection and read about feminism (in it's infinite flavors.) What's most amusing is in every discussion I've had with people like you, I'm told how evil women are and how sexism is over. Also that I don't know jack about anything and should shut up. But do I? No, because I give shits about women.
No, that *is* what it's about. Clearly someone has never been to reddit.
Lolz so witty.
He missed the point so bad he landed on mars.
Everyday? This isn't the 50s anymore hun, it's the 21st century so I'm failing to see how women are so oppressed that they are forced to listen to everyone else while having no say. You're playing victim like most other modern feminists and I find it quite annoying. Since you mention that I'll also mention that females are taught from a young age that their problems and issues take precedence and to cry out for help when they need it while males are taught to tough it out and handle it on their own and that their voice isn't important, what is important is whether or not they are physically capable. Also you're reversing that, women are taught that from when they are young, that's part of the teaching that their problems are more important, Females are also very often held in higher regard then men; men are disposable, they're often portrayed as slobs, morons, incapable of thought, with no etiquette and with a short attention span. Also I haven't seen any comments on here from any male implying or stating that your experiences are wrong. You're just using that as a blanket attempt to invalidate any posts from males on this site as blithering nonsense. Many of their points stand you just don't want to listen and want to read their comments your way so you can eschew further debate by pointing the finger and shouting "they're the bad guys, they're against us we!" It's like arguing with a religious bigot, no matter what they're always right and everyone else that disagrees even just a little bit is wrong. There's no point.
And you know how? You're a female and as many women on this site seem to point out when arguing with men; men cannot note misogynistic behavior as easily as men. Men aren't raped… really? Also honor killing; you wanna complain about that then go fight in the countries that it happens in, not on a website dedicated to geeky stuff. There's also plenty of harassment directed towards men, hell go to a local high school, find the group of geeks and see how many females harass them, even being sexual just to shame them even more. Or any group of 20 something women, see how much they harass men and women. You want female equality, then go fight for it where it's needed.
How is there no logic? That's what's happening and you're just playing along. Ashe I've noticed has oftentimes displayed a level of misandry even at men who aren't acting hostile or telling her "how it is" as everyone seems to imply. Oftentimes she's telling them "how it is" so tell me how am I wrong when I state that female sexism is ignored, even when aimed at fellow females and that many feminists in this day and age don't like it when the mirror is aimed in their direction and when they have to face criticism they shut everyone up and say they're "mansplaining".
Men aren't raped!? MEN AREN'T RAPED?!? Tell me then, why have I experienced rape and sexual harassment on several occasions?
I was trying to make a point. That it's misogynistic that Bic makes pens specifically for women, yet it's not misandric but still misogynistic when Dr. Pepper makes a diet soda that doesn't make a man feel like less of a man. I'm seeing to many people implying there's no two ways, everything no matter what is apparently always against women.
Agreed, besides FrayedMachine, Sarah and mythbri I'v seen nothing but hate and vitriol aimed at any man no matter how civil. Shutting him down solely because he has a penis and silencing any woman who might agree with him. All I see is hypocrisy and sexism. Sexism isn't over, it's just now women are excused for being so and are defended while men whether, sexist or not is, still sexist which conveniently silences him. Reminds me of the part in Shutter Island; something like 'someone accused of being insane who says they're not is only proven to be insane.' So I guess I'm done here because no matter what I'm wrong because I am man, unless I bow down, agree with everything and do as I'm told. Enjoy the SCUM Manifesto, I hear it's a good one.
I am a dude.
I think this is awesome. #2 is my fave.
Dude, you are so right. I'm really glad you're dropping these little wisdom nuggets into our sheltered, lady lives or else we'd just keep being angry and then we really wouldn't deserve equality.
You know what's ALSO a big problem? Racism against white people!! How come nobody talks about that?
The negative effects of patriarchy on men isn't misandry.
….what about mtf transgender? Are they not allowed here…?
A meme is sort of a running gag…it's not to be taken seriously. I'm African American and you don't see many of us raging over the "Black Dancing Chicken Man" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYfeSHgfK5s&feature=player_embedded) or per say the fact I am dyslexic…I'd link to the plethora of dyslexic Joke sites but that would be a waste of time since simply googling dyslexic will yield a vast number of results. I know it's the "It happens to everyone" Argument, but it's just a waste of your time to go after silly jokes when there are so many meaningful fights not yet had in the real world.
The pen yields a mightier blow then the sword, The pen is silent and can be ignored, The sword however?..Is a brute and much less rational then the pen.
As enraged as I am that some people don't see the inherent sexism of this particular meme (prominently featuring a girl, let's start with that) there are plenty of people many of whom are geeky dudes who get it (possibly because they have interacted with real living women before). Society is not hopeless. And btw, for those of you derailing the conversation by talking about male geeks being bullied, a lot of those incidents can be traced back to rather homophobic intents because male bullies like to invalidate other guys' masculinity which brings us full circle to sexism (femininity seen as inferior).It is a societal problem rather than just one gender's issue. As we can see plenty of women are willing to ostracize others to fit in to some super exclusive geek club using the same bs argument that NOM uses against queer folks: you're not valid and how you express yourself is obviously detrimental to my life. This is not to say sexism is women's fault and that we should "be nice" when talking about it or "just take responsibility" because it's all on us (that's asinine).
Clearly, the more appropriate response when someone does something you don't like is shunning and mockery.
Maybe if others in the community would LISTEN to girls instead of just assuming they're fake based on minimal information.
Butthurt Dweller. Look it up people.
Butthurt dweller. Look it up before you act like men have no derogatory memes about them. Also see bad luck BRIAN, scumbag STEVE, and foul BACHELOR frog.
But if you want male focused memes about an idiot, look at net noob. It shows a guy thats is just as if not more oblivious than the person represented in the idiot nerd girl meme.
Men and Women face DIFFERENT KINDS of societal pressure, scrutiny and harassment. Just because you're not familiar with the pressures that a man might face does not mean that your woes are more terrible than anyone else's. We face different but EQUAL pressures on both sides, so there's no need to overemphasize.
One thing is for sure, men have NEVER found the need to support each other in order to spite women as a COLLECTIVE identity. (though I hope for argument's sake that you might come up with an example to prove otherwise) A man is just as willing to spite another man as he is another woman as long as it serves to solidify his individual SECURITY.and enable him to take care of his responsibilities. Thus when males in a geek culture mock a female, they are JUST AS LIKELY to mock a guy who makes the same mistakes. The MAIN difference however, is that the male geek taking fire DOES NOT expect special treatment for being whatever he is whether he's online or OFFLINE. The fact of the matter is, the internet (and the world in general) is a HARSH place. And we're gonna have to ACCEPT that making people feel guilty for things they did not commit will NOT make the world more "pleasant".
Going further into internet culture specifically, it is no secret that males constitute the MAJORITY of internet culture and most of its content is perpetrated by male effort. So, again trying to appeal to a majority to be more lenient requires an understanding of the majority's values and motives. Otherwise, you might as well convince more women to get into geek culture to even the odds. (Good luck with that.) OR might I suggest NOT calling anyone who slams your opinion "ignorant"? I'm sure that would help you get more neutral treatment.
WRONG In the past, tradition would dictate that men should have more power over public affairs, while women consequently controlled men's private affairs. In modern times, these roles have become interchangeable. But the overall power balance has NOT changed, only the TYPES of power have changed. Men and women have always held equal power over each other. And today human beings are just as violent to each other as they have always been, except nowadays people can be violent to each other REGARDLESS of their victim's sex. Of course men and women are equally likely to be violent, except they each have different TYPES of violence depending on their strengths and weaknesses. Indeed, they are as they have always been >> DIFFERENT:
A man might stab you in the back with a knife, a woman might poison your drink. A man tells a whole BUNCH of small lies, a woman would tell a few BIG lies. A man would use brute force where a woman would use deceit.
If there's one thing men and women can be equal at, that thing would be EVIL. So let us embrace evil, for it is all that unites us and brings feminism to its long due extinction.
Women have the luxury of not having to care about a man's feelings, whereas men MUST understand women's feelings, which is something men would never have had to go through if they did not actually ADMIT that they need women. Men are forced to admit because to do otherwise would be insensitive of them, and subject THEM to ridicule. Ironically, it hurts them either way, and they would ultimately accept that, but not without protest! naturally
It is just as difficult for you to accept men as it is for men to UNDERSTAND women.
Notice how I made my point without needing to be aggressive, or using sexual references? If this is what it's like to (God forbid) MANSPLAIN, then I stand guilty and I'm proud of it. Do your worst, I'll enjoy deflecting your misdirected anger.
Let "feminism" reveal its true face: a politicized expression of anger. How do you expect to be taken seriously?
The men posting here are hilarious. Keep it up, you're dead stupid as it is.
I hate to break it to you, but I have heard some of the most hateful, misogynistic stuff coming from female mouths, not male. Some women who consider themselves "geeky" can be very hard on other women whom they perceive as "faking it". What this gets them, I haven't a clue… it's all pretty ridiculous.
So I take it this whole "Social Justice" thing is about countering empty assertions and assumptions with equally empty assertions and assumptions without seeing the irony?
Sad thing is this chick in the picture screams Hipster, and those fuckers of Both genders are Fake Geeks.
Personally I have less issue with fake she-geeks than fake-he geeks, there is a slim chance that I may get some action or at least they will direct the hipster faux he-geeks long enough until this geek-chic crap blows over.
Male hipster faux-geeks just douche about and compete with us for the real geekettes and are usually such monstro douches they drive any non-geek chicks who would date geeks away…
All the girls commenting on this page crack me up. I was into The Mary Sue *way* before you posers were.
There are fake geek girls, they don't get put off because they don't actually care. You won't see many true nerds unless they have friends to go with.
Hah, Dave Sim cutdown
oh, good comeback. ugh.
Women saved the Star Trek franchise by publishing fanzines and organizing the very first conventions after the original show was cancelled. Decades later, men still argue about whether women can be as dedicated as they are to a franchise.
That's okay. Women all over the world will continue to contribute to "nerd culture" by supporting–and creating–franchises with strong fandoms. Unless someone out there can prove that world famous female fantasy and comic creators, such as Madeleine L'Engle, Ursula K. LeGuin, Keiko Takemiya, Anne Rice, Moto Hagio, K. A. Applegate, Anne Rice, Rumiko Takahashi, J. K. Rowling, Hiromu Arakawa, Yellow Tanabe, Gail Simone, Etc. are all "poseurs".
claiming insider knowledge that can't be articulated into words is condescending and does not add to debate, it negates it. Being a person with a vulva does not make you knowledgable on the subject. In this case it makes you fucking annoying. Like you think that being a woman is the most important thing you have ever done. You myopic nerdgirls are goddamned predictable. I know this because I am a post-leftist, and I am immune to your victimist bullshit and the pussy-whipped male feminists that you emply to do most of your arguing.
Listen, flaming leftist internet feminists, and their male pussy-whipped equivalent. I think a lot of these guys are reacting against booth girls, that are models that are paid to wear hot costumes, and couldnt give a fuck about the things we care about. Doesn't that mean that they actually exist? Go and tell them how they are regressive or something. You bunch of fucking joykills.
You know … I still don't get how one can be a fake geek girl. Nor why one would bother, really. I think this business of creds and proving that one is really a geek is ridiculous. If I don't do X and Y but I do Z, does that mean that my geeky status is invalidated?
Yes. Because fake glasses and bragging about "playing Halo on my Nintendo all night, I'm such a nerd! LOL!!" definitely qualifies you as being part of what is essentially an ancient and powerful subculture that now controls the world.
its true
I know your comment is old, but I just read it today. I knew someone once who was a fake furrie . . . I couldn't understand why someone would want to pretend to be a furrie. And yet, there he was, posing away. We just waited for the phase to pass it's course. I think the reasoning is because they see it as something that is unique and separate from main stream culture and and therefor, pretending to be one makes them unique and in turn, more desirable because they are different.
I see people talking *about* this problem 900% more often than anyone citing examples of it happening in real life.
anyone with a brain can see this girl is a poser any true nerdy/geeky/gamer girl would not feel the need to pose like that and take a picture…i underswtand girls still have to prove their credentials but for those complaining about the morons who are trying to target all girls with this and not just the posers then just laugh at the stupidity of the creator….like I said anyone with a brain would see that the girl in the picture does not represent true nerdy/geeky/gamer girls.
I do not find these memes offensive because I do not view it as targeting ALL girls just the few that are fakes. Its about perception…….
"Hasn't read all 900 issues of Batman and neither have you"? That's because there are only 713 issues, and I HAVE read them all…. I've also read all the Detective Comics issues about Batman as well and a shitload of related characters comics too.
Like how you just tried to invalidate sexism because it happens to be aimed at males? Seriously, you sound pretty damn stupid.
I think the core of this problem comes from the weird cliquey subculture that 'nerd' has become and the kind of people who are attracted to identifying with brands, as if that fucking means something. You see this same thing in any music scene when so called 'fake punks' start coming to shows. To be honest, I completley removed myself from this world because of the weird hierarchy of sad people trying to use a prefered form of media or content therein as an excuse to be exclusive.
I don't think this is a discussion about whether or not some people are initially drawn to certain fandom because of the novelty attached to it's image. I know some people are initially interested in being the only girl in a comic store or being little Enid Coleslaws. I just don't for the life of me see why that's something to give a flying fuck about. I only got into comics because my older sister and brother read them a lot and left them laying around the house, I idolized them so I listened to the bands they liked and read the comics they did… is that non legit fandom? Did I discover this particular brand of escapsim incorrectly?
Six video game couples that have stuck with me over the years, each representing a different sort of love.
For the few weeks every two years when we care about sports.