text:
Specifications & Dimensions
Dimensions and Capacity: | |
Overall Dimensions: | 6 L in. |
Product Overview: | |
Item Weight (lbs.): | 0.47 lbs. |
Warranties & Coverage: | |
General Warranty: | Guaranteed forever |
Ratings & Reviews
Product Description
Professional [TT_Pliers] with a clear, protective coating for increased corrosion-resistance. Ergonomic dual material handle for comfort and grip, with thumb stops and a widened palm grip for control.
- Ergonomic dual material handle for comfort and grip
- Thumb stops and widened palm grips for control
- Improved cutter design for longer wear with heat-treated, hardened steel cutting edges
- Handle grips are chemical resistant to exceed ASME standards for solvents
- Face highlights and high polish finish for a professional appearance
- Exceeds all ASME & ANSI standards
- Available for Gift Wrap
Added on April 15, 2010
Overall, others give this:
Floyds Knobs, IN
Stong, precise, comfortable! These are just a few of the words I could use to describe these pliers. The simple fact is that I love them. They might cost a buck or two more, but I deserve the best. These pliers are the BEST.
Tunkhannock, PA
These are my favorite pair of dikes. I use them for electrical work as well as to pull finishing nails. I use these all the time. I got my pair about 5 years ago and they have turned me onto Craftsman "Professional" line of tools. The best thing is the comfortable handle.
Roselle, IL
I got the pair of cutters cause I need them for work. I bought a pair and they would not cut small wires and cable ties. I told a sales person about the problem and he recommended filing the back side of the cutters to see if that helps. It did I filed the back of the cutters to make them close further and now they cut just about anything that I put in them. I think Craftsman needs to make them so they close all the way when you use them cause there is a gap when they are fully closed.
Beaver Dam, WI
via sears.com
I bought my set of dikes 6 years ago and they are still cutting very well, even though I use them everyday. There are many dikes on the market and most cost more than the Craftsman Professional, but there really isn't a better value out there. I've broken cheaper ones and have outperformed more expensive sets. I will say that they also have made improvements to these cutters. The jaws used to be much larger, and as such they were difficult to get into tight places. Craftsman recognized this and made improvements. Good work Craftsman!!
Barrington, NH
via sears.com
The pliers slice wire, nails, staples, etc as if it is butter. The handles are comfortable for my small hands. I can use them for an extended period of time, and my hands never cramp up. Very please w/ this line of pliers and will be purchasing more from this line as the need arises.
Kent, WA
via sears.com
I bought these cutters about one year ago. They have proven themselves to be reliable and useful. I work as an instrumentation and electrical specialist at a cement plant. Nice grip has held up and still like new. I have had no problems with any function of this tool. I would recommend the set these are included in with needle nose, strippers, and linesmans. I bought them all seperate costing a little more.
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Tucson >
Food & Dining > El ParaisoNeighborhoods: Keeling, Ward 3
Excellent authentic food and very nice atmosphere!!! – The service here is excellent. They make sure your glasses are full and you have plenty of chips and salsa. The albondigas are simply delicious..plenty of meatballs and lots of vegetables. Prices are a little high but well worth it.
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Algeta for investors
Algeta aims to be an attractive investment for its shareholders through consistent performance and information.
Algeta is working to extend and improve cancer patients' lives by developing targeted therapies to fulfil unmet medical needs.
Algeta is an oncology company seeking to bring novel targeted medicines to patients through its leadership in alpha-pharmaceuticals.
Algeta was founded in 1997 and listed on the Oslo Stock Exchange in 2007 (ticker: ALGETA). Since then Algeta has developed expert capabilities in its operational areas of research and development, manufacturing, clinical, and commercial. With global clinical operations, it has also established a subsidiary in the US to carry out the co-promotion of its lead product Xofigo (radium Ra 223 dichloride), as part of its 2009 agreement with Bayer.
"Our goal is to develop cancer therapies where there are clear, unmet medical needs"
Algeta aims to be an attractive investment for its shareholders through consistent performance and information.
Combining expertise in radiochemistry, nuclear medicine, and medical oncology, Algeta is at the forefront of alpha-pharmaceutical research.
If you'd like to know more about Algeta and our research, please do get in touch – we'd love to hear from you.
You are now leaving www.algeta.com. Links to sites outside of Algeta are provided as a resource to the viewer. Algeta accepts no responsibility for the content of linked sites.


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- Home >
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Bill Jacobs BMW/Mini
Ask for Internet Sales 866-550-9101New Car Pricing2495 Aurora AveDealership Reviews
Naperville IL 60540
(301.65 miles away)
Flow Mini
5600 Capital Blvd
Raleigh NC 27616
(960.01 miles away)
Motorwerks BMW Mini
1300 American Blvd W, Bloomington, MN 55420
(53.11 miles away)
Zimbrick Mini of Madison
310 W Beltline Hwy, Madison, WI 53713
(206.1 miles away)
Bergstrom Mini of Fox Valley
2986 N Victory Ln, Appleton, WI 54913
(236.58 miles away)
Dealers in Nearby Cities
View thousands of cars, trucks, and SUVs for sale online from Owatonna MINI dealers. Sort automobile listings a couple of different ways. Group the vehicles by their MSRP price, MPG numbers, year, manufacturer, or location. Find MINI dealers in Owatonna with ease. Purchasing a vehicle is quite a large investment. A prudent shopper will conduct some thorough investigation. See the inventory Owatonna MINI dealers currently have on-hand.
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Get much more than just automobile sales at a MINI dealer Owatonna. Owatonna MINI dealerships should have a leasing branch too. Or if you need a stock part, a Owatonna MINI dealer will have a dedicated parts and accessories department. Free maintenance is offered on some new car purchases. And most MINI dealers in Owatonna will service your automobile for free if covered. In the event that your vehicle breaks down and the warranty has already expired; you can get repairs done at various Owatonna MINI dealers. A MINI dealer Owatonna can provide so much more including service coupons, special maintenance offers, incentives, and rebates.
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CCAModerator: Team Cub
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Group 1 Battery
Specifications Weight: 33 pounds Length: 8.88 inches Width: 6.88 inches Height: 8.75 inches Cranking Amps: 720 Cold Cranking Amps: 575 Voltage: 6 Termination: A Young man for work, old man for advice
I also bought an Optima Battery about 5 years ago for my pickup and as WKPoor says you cannot beat them for starting power and durability. I paid $135.00 for it and dont regret the expense as I figure it will outlast 3 lead-acid batteries. Also there is never any battery post corrosion with these Gel-Cell types. I did not know they made them in the 6-volt version, I will have to check into that for my next tractor battery.
Then came Bronson
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ASUR Announces Corrected Date For Shareholders' Meeting
MEXICO CITY, Nov. 15, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Grupo Aeroportuario del Sureste, S.A.B. de C.V. (NYSE: ASR; BMV: ASUR) (ASUR), the first privatized airport group in Mexico and operator of Cancun Airport and eight other airports in southeast Mexico, as well as a 50% JV partner in Aerostar Airport Holdings, LLC, operator of the Luis Munoz Marin International Airport in San Juan, Puerto Rico, today announced that the date of the Ordinary General Shareholders' Meeting is now December 19, 2013 and not December 23, 2013 as previously stated in its news release issued on November 13, 2013. The date on which the Company Shareholder Register will be closed for registration is now December 16, 2013 and not December 18, 2013.
The following is the corrected complete text of the call for the shareholders' meeting:
By resolution of the Board of Directors adopted at the meeting held on November 12, 2013 and pursuant to the provisions of Articles 36, 37 and other provisions of the by-laws of Grupo Aeroportuario del Sureste, S.A.B. de C.V. (the "Company") and Articles 180 and 183 of the General Corporations Law ("Ley General de Sociedades Mercantiles"), the Company's shareholders are hereby called to attend the Ordinary General Shareholders' Meeting (the "Meeting"), which will take place at 10:00 am on December 19, 2013, at the Company's offices in Bosque de Alisos No. 47-A 4th floor, Colonia Bosque de las Lomas, 05120, Mexico City, Mexico, to discuss the following matters:
I. Presentation and, if applicable, approval of the following:
Proposal by the Board of Directors to pay an extraordinary net dividend in cash from accumulated retained earnings in the amount of $4.40 (four pesos and forty cents Mexican legal tender) for each of the ordinary "B" and "BB" Series shares. Resolutions thereon; and
II. Appointment of delegates in order to enact the resolutions adopted at the Meeting and, if applicable, to formalize such resolutions. Resolutions thereon.
Subject to the provisions of the paragraph immediately following this one, in order to have the right to attend the Meeting, the shareholders shall (i) be registered on the Company Shareholder Register, which will be closed for registration three days prior to the date set for the Meeting, that is, on the December 16, 2013; and (ii) have obtained their admission pass.
In order to have the right to attend the Meeting, on the last business day before the Meeting at the latest, (i) the shareholders shall deposit at the Company's offices, with S.D. Indeval, S.A. de C.V., Institucion para el Deposito de Valores ("Indeval") or with any national or foreign financial credit institution, their share certificates or the receipts or other proof of deposit issued by any such institutions, and (ii) the brokerage houses and the other depositaries at Indeval shall present a list containing the names, addresses, nationalities and number of shares of the shareholders that they will represent at the Meeting. Upon receipt of such documents, the Company shall issue an admission pass to shareholders and/or deliver the forms that they may use in order to be duly represented at the Meeting pursuant to subsection III of Article 49 of the Securities Market Law. In order to attend the Meeting, shareholders shall present the corresponding admission pass and/or form.
The shares deposited at the Company by shareholders for the purposes of attending the Meeting shall be returned when the Meeting has ended, upon delivery of the deposit receipts issued to the shareholder or the shareholder's attorney-in-fact for such shares.
Shareholders may either attend the Meeting personally or be represented by a person or persons duly authorised through a power of attorney signed by two witnesses, through an application in terms of Article 49 subsection III of the Securities Market Law or by any other form of representation granted pursuant to the law.
Furthermore, please be advised that the supporting documentation for the adoption of the resolutions of the Meeting hereby convened, and the previously-mentioned application, shall be available for review by shareholders at the Company's offices fifteen days prior to the date of the Meeting.
Mexico City, November 14, 2013
Rafael Robles Miaja
Secretary of the Board of Directors
About ASUR:
Grupo Aeroportuario del Sureste, S.A.B. de C.V. (ASUR) is a Mexican airport operator with concessions to operate, maintain and develop the airports of Cancun, Merida, Cozumel, Villahermosa, Oaxaca, Veracruz, Huatulco, Tapachula and Minatitlan in the southeast of Mexico. ASUR is a 50% JV partner in Aerostar Airport Holdings, LLC, operator of the Luis Munoz Marin International Airport in San Juan, Puerto Rico. The Company is listed both on the Mexican Bolsa, where it trades under the symbol ASUR, and on the NYSE in the U.S., where it trades under the symbol ASR. One ADS represents ten (10) series B shares.
SOURCE Grupo Aeroportuario del Sureste, S.A.B. de C.V.
More by this Source
ASUR Calls For A Shareholders' Meeting
Mar 07, 2014, 09:20 ET
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Big Bang Theory - Others Are Stupid Shirt
Item # BBT063
In stock
Average Customer Rating:
Meet Jay. He is 5' 8" tall and weighs 170 pounds. He is wearing size L.
Full Description
Sheldon Cooper t-shirt. This Others Are Stupid t-shirt from the Big Bang Theory features the quote "I cry because others are stupid... and that makes me sad" with a sad face emoticon.
Color: | Heather blue |
Material: | 50% Cotton/50% Polyester |
Tag: | Tagless |
Softness: | Medium |
Fit: | True To Size |


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Rugged Ridge Jeep JK 07-12 Rear Cargo Area Storage Tub
Brand: Rugged Ridge Product Code(s): 13122.01 UPC: 804314216733 Shipping Weight: 2.00 lbs Shipping Dimensions: 25.00 x 10.00 x 4.00 Availability: In Stock |
Price: $39.95 $29.95
Protect your carpet from moisture, dirt, and grease with the exclusive Rugged Ridge storage bin for 07-10 Wrangler. This custom fit storage bin fits perfectly in the rear cargo area storage compartment providing protection and an easy to use removable tote. Molded from rigid and durable ABS plastic for a perfect contoured fi t and long life. The unique chevron pattern matches the look of the All Terrain Floor and Cargo liners. Each bin features integrated handles for ease of removal and cleaning. Installation Requires (< 1 Hour):
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Affordable Housing Needs: A Report to Congress on the Significant Need for Housing
In 1990, the U.S. Senate Appropriations Committee directed HUD to "resume the annual compilation of a worst case housing needs survey of the United States ... [to estimate] the number of families and individuals whose incomes fall 50 percent below an area's median income, who either pay 50 percent or more of their monthly income for rent, or who live in substandard housing."Download Info
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Paper provided by HUD USER, Economic Development in its series Economic Development Publications with number 39114.Length: 103 pages
Date of creation: Dec 2005
Date of revision:
Handle: RePEc:hud:wpaper:39114
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Back to Winter '13 Force.com Platform Release
Winter '13 Force.com Platform Release
Force.com Canvas (Pilot)
Instead of redesigning and reintegrating your external applications, you can now use these tools to integrate your technology within Force.com Canvas. Force.com Canvas includes tools that handle:
- Authentication—If your application requires authorization, you can implement it by using a signed request or OAuth 2.0.
- Cross-Domain XHR—JavaScript support for cross-domain XML HTTP requests back to the Salesforce domain.
- Context—API support that enables you to retrieve context information about the environment in which the canvas app is running.


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Wednesday, April 09, 2008
RE: Nine Improvements Needed in KDE, by Bruce Byfield
Thanks for trying KDE 4.0.x and then writing about it. It's always great when people try something for a while and then give their honest opinion on things. I'd like to address some of the issues you raise, so let's start where you started:
"A more customizable panel": the issues you note, from resizing and moving to not covering the toolbox, are already addressed in svn with the exception of autohiding which is currently partially working in a WIP patch. So this set of issues is more past tense than anything at this point. There remain some burrs to work out, such as not all widgets accommodating really small panels very well still or easy moving of applets.
"A better menu": This one is less clear. You state that it seems to be based on the XP/Vista menus, yet other than having a header and a footer I really don't see many overt similarities. Vista introduced integrated search, but that's a no-brainer. Kickoff isn't a two-pane model, it has tabs .. I could go on. Certainly they are more similar with each other than, say, the MacOS alternatives and Kickoff, but that's a bit broad. In any case case, kickoff concepts were usability tested. There's always room for improvement, however.
The sliding menus thing is indeed one of those areas I'm not happy with; the rest is a marked improvement. It seems you agree. It also seems you agree with me that the old style menu sucks even more. ;) An approach I've started on to improve the menu navigation is to provide a breadcrumb control to the top of the menus. Hopefully I'll have it completed for 4.1, but I think it will largely take care of the issues you note about quick subnavigation.
But let's get really serious here: trolling through their installed apps randomly is hardly something most people do on a regular basis. If they are, we should ask ourselves "why?" because it certainly isn't what most people are wanting to do. Therefore it isn't what one should be optimizing for; indeed we should be offering better ways of getting at those things. Integrated search, favourites, and krunner's flexible searching (and not just by name, either) are all parts of the answer here.
Moreover, plasma provides the flexibility for alternatives to appear rather easily. We already have two menus in kdebase, which is one more than in kde3, with Lancelot in extragear and other experiments underway elsewhere.
"Remove the mini-icons": Ah, the infamous "call for removal". This has got to be one of my personal pet peeves. The answer to "could be better" is not "get rid of it"; well, unless one is completely happy with never improving or innovating. Since we're in the hi-tech industry, which has been all about radically changing the world for the last 50 odd years, the answer to that should be pretty obvious. So rather than "toss it", let's look at your issues and see what might be done about things.
"these mini-icons are not supported equally by all icon themes in every distro": Yep, many icon themes suck. Improve the themes. It's absolutely daft to suggest that even though we have working solutions (e.g. Oxygen, to name but one) that we should therefore tiptoe about and ensure our software sucks in other ways. The whole "must work in every possible contrived scenario" thinking is just not something that jives with the real world; with Free software there are too many scenarios, particularly contrived ones, and I'm not satisfied with being held back by the failings of others (e.g. incomplete or outmoded icon themes). This is one reason companies like Apple continue to shine in areas we don't: they control everything so can create optimal scenarios; we need to find the happy medium between "control everything" (uck!) and "let the mediocrity that comes with 'allow everything' set the height of the bar". No, set a bar and let others rise to it. That's a recipe for improvement.
"they can be hard to pinpoint with a mouse-click" That I agree with. We're actually going to be looking at how to re-work the applet handles this week at Tokamak, the first international Plasma developer sprint being held in Milan. I'll keep you posted. ;)
"add an appearance of complexity that may intimidate new users": If one makes usability statements, it's best to match them with testing (which isn't surveying, btw) or research others have done in relevant areas. The "may do $BAD_THING" is just so impossible to discuss because of the "may" and lack of any supporting data. I will note that it's one aspect that we haven't had any negative feedback on during user testing or in our issue tracker. Neat.
"redundant when each icon already has a right-click menu with the same choices.": So tell me which finger is right click on a touch screen? ;) Context menus are also "hidden" functionality: people learn to try and right click on things to see if it brings up anything useful. This is daft. Context menus should be there to house less used or more difficult options; hover interfaces make things obvious and discoverable. They also work with out a multi-button input device. Such as a stylus.
"They serve no useful purpose, and wouldn't be missed if eliminated." You may not think so, but others would differ. I'd also humbly suggest that clicking on and manipulating a resize button is more intuitive and "feels better" than "right click, select resize, move the mouse about, $DO_SOMETHING (click?) when done".
Let's move on ...
"A preview for images in the file manager": There's a Preview button in the toolbar, apparently ou missed it or it was missing for some odd reason in the build you installed. But it's there, and in 4.1 it's even nicer with cute little frames around them.
"Improved accessibility": I'm really, really disappointed in this section. Why? Because an insane amount of effort went into making sure that Qt4 works with with AT/SPI. Trolltech invested in a stack of tools to make working with D-Bus painless (and then some!) and then used those tools to create a backend for QAccessible on X11. You can read about it here on Trolltech's docs website. This was not a small amount of work and it was done because we believe in accessibility (a11y) so much.
KDE and Qt have both been very actively involved in a11y efforts for a number of years now. We hosted an a11y summit at Akademy in Ludwigsberg, Germany some 4 years ago, we've worked closely with the FSG a11y group, attended conferences around the world, adopted specs such as the X11 a11y key controls and wrote UIs for them, included numerous tools in KDE to work with these things and also taken the position that rather than duplicate every tool just because it isn't written in Qt to try and add new tools that are missing so the entire count of Free software tools by genre increases. Top this off with the work to bring a11y support on X11 up to par with what we've had on Windows and Mac in Qt for years ... it's significant.
So given both our long term interest and long term efforts that have impressive real world results .. I'm not sure a lecture on the importance of a11y, or misleading the public who reads your column to think KDE doesn't do much in the area of a11y, was warranted.
"What it lacks is an extensive screen reader like GNOME's Orca": Do you really think our time is best spent spending time reimplementing Orca just so we have something in Qt? Maybe someday someone will, but right now we have better things to do. This kind of mentality of "my toolkit or DIE!" is a disease. It makes us waste more effort and time when it isn't specifically needed. In this case, just use Orca with KDE4 apps. That's why there is AT-SPI: the bridge these gaps between Gtk+, Java, OO.o, Qt, KDE, etc...
"Drag and drop between menus, the desktop, and the panel": This is already done in svn, and not just limited to files. Rejoice! =)
That's a significant point as well, because the whole "desktop is a place to shove icons representing files" is limiting and largely redundant. What if I want to show more than one directory on my desktop? What if I want that directory to change depending on what I'm doing? Icons are demoted in Plasma to being just like any other widget, and in 4.1 we're about to replace the "desktop icons" with a simple yet much more common (and flexible) folder view.
"A broader selection of widgets": I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, other than to point out that a widget system that is only a few months old has fewer add-ons that one that is years old. I should hope so, otherwise the years old one is a complete and utter disaster. I also don't see the point of the comparison to tomboy which is rather out of scope.
That said, I currently count nearly 60 useful widget (so not counting test widgets or Hello World style widgets) in my Plasma install, and I don't have all of them. Then there is SuperKaramba which has dozens and dozens of its own. In 4.1 there are also the MacOS Dashboard widgets. So this really starts to look a bit silly =)
I'd also suggest comparing what does exist, such as the Twitter Plasma widget versus what's available elsewhere. Even though just released a couple months ago it's already nicer than what I've seen elsewhere. In fact, I know one person who switched to KDE4 from another system specifically because of that.
"KDE 4's one innovation is to permit larger version of widgets that fit on to panels on the desktop." I think that sells the rest of KDE4 short. I mean, I look at what I see in Phonon or Marble or Dolphin's nepomuk integration or ... Perhaps you are confusing "KDE 4" with "the desktop shell". Even then, I hadn't seen the desktop grid effect anywhere (to name one) not even in Compiz before KWin4.
That said, if we do want to focus just on Plasma, let's look at the pervasive scripting, the division between data provision and visualization, the inclusion of a plugin based "UI command line" with the default desktop command dialog, Containments, the use of SVG for the desktop, a properly composite aware free software shell, the ability to easily slide the same interfaces between devices of radically different scale ... I won't even mention things we don't have more fully realized such as zooming and activity-centric layouts, though that brings me to:
"why clutter your desktop with minor applications that you only occasionally want?" Well, Bruce, the answer is you don't have to. You can have nothing on your desktop whatsoever. For those who would like to build sets of tools that aid in the task they are currently working on (remember you can pull then forward by pressing Ctrl-F12 as well), it means the world. As more task oriented widgets becomes available for things like IM and presence integration, the folder listing I mentioned earlier, sharable (i.e. zeroconf aware) regions, more online data agregators ... This becomes more and more compelling.
Or we could talk about the "media center" concept. I hear it's getting pretty popular. ;) Plasma provides a way to have a widget assembly that can come and go and provide access to exactly that set of features and functionality. Yes, you may only occasionally want to skip through your film and video collection, but having the ability to call up that interface with a couple clicks is exactly what most people want to be able to do these days.
So I think you not only got the conclusion wrong, but your whole premise ("clutter your desktop ... minor applications") is askew.
"Better organized configuration tools": I'm not sure how you installed KDE 4.0, but your description of the layout of things is not what I have here. Odd. As for palm pilot and mobile phones being applications rather than control panels, that's always been the case; those are interactive tasks rather than simple configuration issues. For syncing, I'd like to see a Grand Unified panel one day, and I do agree that there is room for improvement in the ordering of things in System Settings yet. I just don't find what I'm looking at here, as a from-source install of KDE4, matching up with what you're describing.
"One of the advantages that KDE Classic had over GNOME was an initial wizard that allowed you to choose in a matter of seconds how much eye candy you wanted to run.": Interestingly, the majority of the user data we culled, including from "commercial" sources such as distributions, implied that this wizard was rather hated. It had other technical issues inherent to it, but really the first thing someone wants to do when they log in is perhaps set up their email/IM and get some work done; it's generally the tweakers (and reviewers tend to fall into tweaker mode, btw, even if they aren't tweakers in real life) who fall into the "let me tweak configuration values first!"
"font anti-aliasing, is not nearly optimal," Fonts are a difficult point right now. If you wish to wag fingers over fonts, go talk to the Free OS vendors who can't seem to get a consistent set of fonts between them, or a consistent set of font management capabilities for that matter. We are still at the mercy of the final system integrator when delivered as binaries for a given OS while we deal with a system of multiple moving targets on the source code front. It's not pretty, and I don't think the gains are to be made at the application level but in the infrastructure and OS vendor levels.
"Improved interface word choices" Here we agree; there's lots of room for improvement here, though things are already pretty decent. However, I think your examples were really poor.
You mention "sub-pixel rendering" as if that was out in the open somewhere. Instead, you can only find it once you go into the Fonts control panel (the integrated search there is nice, isn't it?), select "Enabled" instead of the default setting of "System defaults" (meaning "Let the people who knew what they were doing define what it should look like") and then click on the Configure button that becomes active next to it. Trotting that out as an example is a little inane, don't you think? I'd also ask you what you think a better term for that feature would be.
The "Setup Samba relisa and the ioslaves" is a good one, though I had to search for it a bit. It's a heading in the Sharing control panel in "Network & Connectivity" where the main tab says "Windows shares". I doubt that phrase therefore actually stumped anyone, but it's certainly odd and out of place. Thanks for pointing that one out, I'll commit a fix for that as soon as I'm done with the blog entry. (See, who need a bugzilla? These days we have the power of blogs ;-p )
Then you say: "the new KDE insists on calling its new applets "widget" -- a term that will sound vague to lay users, and inaccurate to developers for whom a widget is part of a graphical interface." Let me point you to "Apple Dashboard Widgets" or "Yahoo Widgets" or "Vista Widgets" or "Opera Widgets" ... I could go on, or diversify with entries like or "Google Gadgets", but you get the point. Widget has become a term that refers to exactly what we're doing. "Applet" may be known terminology to Java developers and KDE/GNOME users from years past, but Wiget has far more broad traction especially for this class of items.
As for "inaccurate to developers" perhaps you can find the developers who got confused or even care about it. Maybe Apple, Yahoo, Opera and Microsoft would like to know about those people too.
Moving on:
"KDE's habit of referring to both an application and its function in the menu": .. which is why we separated them very clearly in kickoff.
But all quibbles aside, you close with:
"All the same, mentioning what needs to be improved remains worthwhile. Improvements are more likely to be made if people are urging them ..."
I agree. Let's just not fall into the "therefore I need to be overtly negative at every turn, and screw the whole factual accuracy thing" trap in the process. I also hope you don't mind, Bruce, having your list of possible improvements dissected and reviewed in turn with equal voracity
I do also agree when you say:
"the question should not be why it needs so many improvements so much as how developers managed to make so many changes all at once"
It constantly amazes me as well. My answer to the question would be: a bit of daring, a measure of guts, an awesome community and a whole lot of freedom. =)
Finally, you say:
"Still, until KDE 4 settles down, potential users should be aware that it continues to be a work in progress, with a large share of unfinished features."
This is well in line with our guidance for 4.0 and somethine we've tried to make clear, so thanks for getting the word out. Until 4.1 (or 4.2 for certain use cases) arrives, there's always KDE3 which is still alive, kicking and a great work horse. For those who are early tech adopters or software developers, 4.0 is a great entry point, but it's certainly not for everyone at this point.
Again, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on things, and hopefully those reading this will now have a bit more of the whole story as well.
Aaron Seigo.
40 comments:
- Golem said...
Well, there is one thing that I've discovered in OO extensions, that makes me think that would be wonderful to have integrated in Kde instead of OO.
SVN integration: I'm very surprised, because it is very simple to use and is much more effective than the versioning control in MSOffice ... and I'd really like to have it for all my documents on my desktop. - 9/4/08 10:57
Wow, I detected so much hostility in there however a thoughtful and considered response on the whole.
He's right about the menu, it is suprising that, that was usability tested (unless I just don't function like the majority of others - which is possible but I have mentioned my feelings on that matter before) but I do like your point that there are many alternatives in the works (because the tools to assist have already been created) so swapping it out should only be a hand full of clicks away and I'm sure the distributions will do their own tests and select a considered default.
I do disagree with him about the mini-icons sure at the moment they are of little use (spinning and resizing icons) but when they are replaced with contextual actions it'd be hard to deny that was an inspired choice.
Wow there are a heck of a lot of Apple widgets (4452 if the category's don't allow for duplications between sections) I'm certain even me the most critical of the widget world wouldn't find something of use in there.
I am impressed by your mention of Plasma service discovery (Zeroconf which I have set up on my home network and works so well but I hope you can seamlessly integrate upnp and smb share discovery in there (sure I announce smb shares through zeroconf but it is effort to get it set up)).
Service menues in Konqueror - when will they be available? Will we be able to use existing 3rd party ones?
thanks, - 9/4/08 12:21
- Rui Tiago said...
Great effort on that shift key Aaron ;-)
Rui - 9/4/08 12:31
I agree with some things Bruce said and I agree with some things you said.
- A better menu. We all agree. Furthermore, I want a right-click menu on the desktop like the one KDE3/*box have.
- Remove the mini icons. I always vote for innovation but in this case I agree with him. Just like the apple motto says, just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to. Like I said, I appreciate innovation but at least include an option to hide them or to configure them if you plan to use a touchscreen, depends on what target you are aiming at, for me they're redundant.
-Preview for images. In my case it doesn't work but I already seen the snapshots with the frame so nothing to say here.
Not much else to add except for this:
"Until 4.1 (or 4.2 for certain use cases) arrives, there's always KDE3 which is still alive"
I must confess that seeing 4.2 for the first time was honestly a little disturbing...is there something you want to tell us about 4.1...? ;). I'm simply making numbers, if 4.1 for the masses will be released on late July, what about 4.2? - 9/4/08 13:00
I use KDE4 from trunk and think Aaron meant that 4.1 will be great for 95-99% of the users, because it will have most of the features of 3.5 and many additional more. There may be a few features that will not get into 4.1 but will be in 4.2 which will surpass 3.5 in any point.
I like 4.1 from trunk very much and the only thinks I miss are automatic panel hiding, mac-like menu bar and easy icon moving on the panel, but I think these are all on the 4.1 TODO - 9/4/08 13:53
There is one thing which surprised me a bit, Aaron:
Do you really think our time is best spent spending time reimplementing Orca just so we have something in Qt? Maybe someday someone will, but right now we have better things to do. This kind of mentality of "my toolkit or DIE!" is a disease. It makes us waste more effort and time when it isn't specifically needed. In this case, just use Orca with KDE4 apps. That's why there is AT-SPI: the bridge these gaps between Gtk+, Java, OO.o, Qt, KDE, etc...
You are right of course that creating an Orca clone in KDE/Qt would be reinventing the wheel/Not Invented Here, but using Orca would obviously require including it's dependencies on GNOME/GTK+ if I'm correct, right? That would require more packages, more disk space, more memory because Orca needs extra dependencies vs. a KDE/Qt app which could use kdelibs/qt which are already loaded in the memory. And Orca would probably never integrate as well in KDE as a "native" KDE app. Using Orca would be a disadvantage for KDE only distro's who'd need to include Orca's dependencies, and it would negatively affect performance (be it by a very small margin though). - 9/4/08 14:22
- Tomasz said...
16 lines about the 'new-menu-matters' in KDE4 and no mention of Raptor? It was considered to be a default menu in version 4.1 and there's been no news of it (including KDE Commit-Digests) since a couple of weeks. Could KDE developers had resigned that notion? It would be a pity. I believe Raptor could be much better solution than Kickoff and gain classic-kde-menu followers also...
- 9/4/08 14:31
- Sergiy said...
@ Dave Taylor
>He's right about the menu, it is
>suprising that, that was usability
>tested ...
Please go to
(the home of Kickoff menu)
and get familiar with menu usability study and results.
Serhiy - 9/4/08 14:35
I sometimes test kde-4 applications in my kde3-environment, and there is one reason, why I can't use these apps (and so kde4): the GUI response is too low, for example scrolling is very unsmooth/slow. I experienced this in apps like dolphin/konqueror/gwenview. I wonder if noone has such problems? (although I have an old radeon graphics card). the same kde3-applications are very responsive and smooth.
Will it be easy in kde4 to switch to an old kde3-style kmenu? kicker will never be a solution for me.. - 9/4/08 14:56
- Tomasz said...
>anonymous said:
>Will it be easy in kde4 to switch
>to an old kde3-style kmenu? kicker
>will never be a solution for me..
Yes, you can switch to kde3-style menu on KDE4! Just choose 'Application Launcher Menu - Traditonal menu...' from Plasma applets and another K-button with traditional menu shows up. Then you can drop the new button on the panel and delete the old one. In KDE from svn there's easier way to switch by right-clicking on the K-button... - 9/4/08 15:23
I really really like the kde3 initial configuration wizard. And I find it hard to believe that it was hated .. how can a one time run irritate anyone?
May I remind you that it served also other purposes than setting the desktop theme like language settings and other localization settings? It was the quickest way to introduce user to KDE's spirit. I vote for the wizard to come back. How about some poll or more serious usability research in this area?
Best Regards,
Rsh - 9/4/08 15:41
Tomasz :
i dont know about raptor, (7 weeks with no updates).
lancelot will be a short term better solution.
(any news about raptor?)
sorry my english. - 9/4/08 15:42
- Henning Schröder said...
You said:
hover interfaces make things obvious and discoverable.
So tell me which finger is hover on a touch screen? ;)
On my N800 I often get annoyed by these web pages and interfaces which change on hover. Right click is normally emulated by tap-and-hold which works great. - 9/4/08 16:02
> An approach I've started on to improve the menu navigation is to provide a breadcrumb control to the top of the menus.
I'd like to know what your view on nested menus are (i.e. the ones that kmenu used to use). These are also used in most applications on the menu bar. Should these use a breadcrumb control too?
I have only a few extra things installed on my kubuntu install. I can easily and quickly find things in kmenu. It's easy to guess what heading an application might be under. I might guess wrong once, but to undo it I just flick the mouse to the left and look in the next category. The kickoff back navigation really slows me down and is very irritating. Kickoff has the whole screen to use but instead constrains itself to this tiny box in the bottom-left of the screen with slow navigation.
At one point you say this:
> But let's get really serious here: trolling through their installed apps randomly is hardly something most people do on a regular basis. If they are, we should ask ourselves "why?" because it certainly isn't what most people are wanting to do. Therefore it isn't what one should be optimizing for;
Then you say this:
> "redundant when each icon already has a right-click menu with the same choices.": So tell me which finger is right click on a touch screen? ;)
Surely touch screens are not the most common use case? We should optimise for the most common use case, like you say, which is using a mouse here. Yes, it would be great if everything was discoverable but you need to consider interface clutter and other issues too. Most touch-screens have press and hold interfaces to right-click anyway. - 9/4/08 16:05
- nanday said...
Thank you for your detailed response, and for taking my comments in the spirit of open discussion in which they were intended. We don't agree on all points, but what I really wanted was to encourage public evaluation of the experiments that KDE 4 represents. After all, whenever so many changes are implemented all at once, some are going to be more successful than others.
I also want to mention that, contrary to what one commenter suggests, there was no hostility in my remarks. For the record, I'm extremely impressed by KDE 4, and I'm stepping up my use of the desktop, because I want to keep a closer eye on how it develops. Despite some rough edges, it's a major advance in the desktop by any standards.
All the best,
Bruce Byfield - 9/4/08 17:06
- cHJpemlkZW50QGphYmJlci5ydQ== said...
Why don't you mention Tastymenu? For me (and I believe for many other users) it has perfect usability. I'm still waiting for kde4 port of tastymenu, coz I can't use a DE without tastymenu
- 9/4/08 18:12
Bruce, the hostility wasn't in your article it was Aaron's reply but I should mention that hostility was the wrong word and it was more Aaron's expression of frustration in his reply that gave me that impression but I suppose I shouldn't comment given I have little understanding of what redesigning common interfaces feels like in the face of constant criticism. I'm sure Aaron expected no less as change seems to always go disliked until folk get used and then if it is right it will be loved - just human nature no matter how obscure it is to the natural world.
- 9/4/08 18:18
- Aaron J. Seigo said...
@golem: yes, i'd like to see that too.
@dave taylor: "detected so much hostility"
there is certainly a level of disappointment inspired by poor journalism, and a resentment of the public myths such pieces create (such as "KDE doesn't do a11y").
this wasn't a journalistic piece as there was obviously no fact checking and it was full of opinion; but if one is going to write opinion pieces it helps to be knowledgeable on the topic. now, i could really care less how it reflects on Bruce (though probably he'll get away with it) but i do care very much that people will think Bruce is being accurate and take away some very wrong messages.
"(spinning and resizing icons"
well, widgets.
as for spinning, consider using it on a flat surface with people gathered around. it's an interesting use case.
"there are a heck of a lot of Apple widgets"
yes, there are. and we can just as easily tap the worlds of yahoo, google, opera and vista widgets.
plasma can become a real canvas: put what you want on it.
"Plasma service discovery"
we will go much further than just discovering services that exist, but also allowing publish/subscribe to widgets on the network on other devices.
think of holding a business meeting where you'd like to share files, contacts or other information .. or think of a media center where you can "dislocate" the controls from the t.v. onto your handheld and walk out of the room with the controls.
and that's really still just scratching the surface, imho.
@anonymous: yes, servicemenus are back in 4.1 exactly as they were in 3.x. hopefully we'll have the chance to extend them a little for 4.1 as well, but certainly for 4.2 if that fails.
@kapri: "I want a right-click menu on the desktop like the one KDE3/*box have."
what i don't want is to have that as the only possibility and therefore make plasma useless for other devices. nor do i want every containment to duplicate code over and over. there's a solution for this, but it needed to wait until the containment/corona relationship settled in.
if you have to choose between fast and right, i'd like to be able to pick right
"just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to."
so then it's a good thing we aren't doing it just because we can.
"at least include an option to hide them or to configure them"
easy answer, wrong answer. honestly, i believe we'll end up with a containment that mimics all the behaviour of yesterday's desktops to satisfy those who are comfortable/stuck with their ways. over time it will fall into greater and greater disuse.
but i'm not interested in damaging the default experience for everyone else.
"if you plan to use a touchscreen, depends on what target you are aiming at, for me they're redundant."
so don't use them. but things like resizing are really not intuitive via context menus.
"Preview for images. In my case it doesn't work"
blame whoever made your packages then.
"seeing 4.2 for the first time was honestly a little disturbing...is there something you want to tell us about 4.1...? ;)."
kontact won't have native akonadi support until 4.2, and with that comes things like better scalability, nepomuk integration, exchange support, etc. i'm giving the mac style menubar a 50-50 chance of making 4.1 at this point.
and i'm sure someone will discover some other pet peeve in 4.1. (people are reliable that way)
4.1 will fill in most of the gaps, however.
"I'm simply making numbers, if 4.1 for the masses will be released on late July, what about 4.2?"
4.2 is probably in december/january.
@anonymous: "the GUI response is too low, for example scrolling is very unsmooth/slow. I experienced this in apps like dolphin/konqueror/gwenview."
the reason for each of these tends to be a bitter different. well, dolphin/konq is the same set of issues, several of which have been addressed for 4.1. i think 4.2 will be even better as qt 4.5 is going to be mostly a performance and stability devel cycle from what i've heard.
i really don't see any difference right now between 3.x and 4.1 apps, though.
"Will it be easy in kde4 to switch to an old kde3-style kmenu? kicker will never be a solution for me.."
it's already possible to switch in 4.0, and it's dead easy in 4.1: right click on the "K" button, switch.
@henning schroeder: "Right click is normally emulated by tap-and-hold which works great."
we'll just have to disagree on this point then.
there's a reason the microwave oven is so popular, and it's not because it's slow or difficult to use.
@anonymous: "but using Orca would obviously require including it's dependencies on GNOME/GTK+ if I'm correct, right?"
"That would require more packages, more disk space, more memory"
minimal in today's world.
"And Orca would probably never integrate as well in KDE as a "native" KDE app. Using Orca would be a disadvantage for KDE only distro's who'd need to include Orca's dependencies, and it would negatively affect performance (be it by a very small margin though)."
yes, it's not a perfect solution. but we don't live in a perfect world. we don't have infinite manpower; in fact, we have very limited amounts of it. so we have to choose our battles wisely.
so we could take time away from filling in feature gaps you can't fill with any free software application satisfactorily, or we can spend time instead playing NIH. which choice benefits free software the most?
in this case the audience for orca is not huge, it's not a trivial application to write properly and it already exists. it's not like there aren't unique kde a11y, btw. to get a really nicely accessible free desktop you need both sets of toolkits and libraries.
i think reimplementing amarok or kalzium in gtk+ just because they use Qt/KDE (yes, there's actually such projects) is insane for very similar reasons. i've blogged about this in detail previously, btw.
@tomasz: "It was considered to be a default menu in version 4.1"
nope. it was always a "when it arrives, we'll examine it". raptor itself has changed radically since it's initial pre-4.0 conceptions and 3.5 predecessor, which hasn't made that any easier either =)
"and there's been no news of it (including KDE Commit-Digests) since a couple of weeks."
that would be because the people who were working on it haven't been. i personally am not involved with raptor.
"Could KDE developers had resigned that notion?"
no, if/when it arrives it will be evaluated. until then ...
"I believe Raptor could be much better solution than Kickoff and gain classic-kde-menu followers also"
perhaps; maybe there are people who will read that and get inspired to work on the ideas.
@anonymous: "how can a one time run irritate anyone?"
when it's a multi-step process that stands in the way of actually using the system you want filled with issues that are to most people irrelevant, it will annoy most people.
"purposes than setting the desktop theme like language settings and other localization settings"
desktop theme switching stuff will happen via another much less irritating solution.
localization really ought to be settable in kdm imho. once you have logged in it's already too late.
"How about some poll or more serious usability research in this area?"
... and keep repeating until we agree with you? ;)
or ... instead of trying to force a broken solution, come up with something better. there are much less irritating approaches. if you're wondering what they could be, stay tuned they'll land in svn eventually.
@anonymous: "view on nested menus are (i.e. the ones that kmenu used to use). These are also used in most applications on the menu bar."
application menus are supposed to be kept to one submenu deep, two in extreme situations. they are also meant to contain a single topic and kept to 6-8 items if at all possible.
the classic kmenu is different in each of these regards so there is no parallel.
"I can easily and quickly find things in kmenu."
the classic menu still exists for you.
"Surely touch screens are not the most common use case? We should optimise for the most common use case, like you say, which is using a mouse here."
if you're going to draw an argument, don't draw a conclusion i make on one topic and then apply it blindly to another. problem solving doesn't work quite like that.
now... as for touch screens not being the most common use case, let me just say two things:
a) for how much longer?
b) the reason they aren't more common is in part because our desktop interfaces are anchored to the desktop.
a universal interface that travels from device to device and behaves similarly everywhere can radically change how we think of computing and interact with systems (desktop, handheld, web, etc)
what i'm suggesting is that by ignoring everything but the current desktop form factor, we both limit in a most bizarre way what is possible and quite likely limit the usefulness and therefore longevity of the desktop.
"it would be great if everything was discoverable but you need to consider interface clutter and other issues too."
you say that like i haven't. let me try this method of discussion: you really ought to wear your underwear under you pants.
"Most touch-screens have press and hold interfaces to right-click anyway."
which requires people to read a manual to figure it and is inherently slower than move, move, touch. there's huge amounts of research on such interaction paradigms; i can't help it that the current crop of touch screen devices don't take it into consideration or are in general crappier than they need to be.
@nanday (aka Bruce Byfield =): "for taking my comments in the spirit of open discussion in which they were intended."
likewise =)
"We don't agree on all points,"
the beauty of being thinking human beings: we get to disagree, too ;)
"but what I really wanted was to encourage public evaluation of the experiments that KDE 4 represents."
and thanks for doing that =)
"Despite some rough edges, it's a major advance in the desktop by any standards."
thanks (on behalf of the hundreds who have worked on it =) - 9/4/08 18:27
- nanday said...
About accessibility: My point was less about what might happen in the future and what is happening now. It was based on some interviews I've done recently about people involved in GNOME accessibility as both contributors and users.
What really stood out for me was
1.) The degree to which accessibility-testing is becoming standard in official GNOME apps.
2. The frustration that several users who are dependent on Orca to use a computer at all have with Qt apps, which they can't use. As someone who has always mixed and matched apps, no matter what desktop I'musing, this reduction in choice really struck home for me. - 9/4/08 18:53
- Quintesse said...
"i think reimplementing amarok or kalzium in gtk+ just because they use Qt/KDE is insane for very similar reasons"
I agree with you that doing a completely new implementation is insane, but on the other hand it irritates me a lot when programs written for Gnome don't integrate well with my desktop. Especially the Gnome file requester drivers me mad. So I imagine it's the same for the Gnomies among us: they want something that integrates nicely with their desktop.
"trolling through their installed apps randomly is hardly something most people do on a regular basis"
Well... actually I do, of course not the same amount of time I would spend looking for my regular apps, but one if the beaties of Linux is that you've got this really enourmous amount of reeally interesting software, a lot of which gets installed by default by most modern distros. In fact here are so many I have no idea what they all do. So I love browsing around to see what is available. The new menu makes that quite a bit more diffilcult, it's just not fun anymore to just go looking around because a) it suddenly takes time (all the animating stuff) and b) there no global overview anymore (all "submenus" replace their "parent").
Just to give you a "why" from one user :) - 9/4/08 19:04
- Iuri Fiedoruk said...
My points about your reply to him:
- mini-icons: yes, you like that Aaron, but still they suck. :)
Why not use something like mouse gestures to avoid them? Why should I click in the mini-resize icon if I can simply click holding mouse button for a second, mouse pointer changes from regultar to resize and I change size by moving mouse? Yes, I know there would be a problem for rotation, let's say for now, hold ctrl or alt altogether. I hope you get this suggestion to Milan :D
- If one makes usability statements, it's best to match them with testing: OK, this was a bad answer. Sorry but looks like a child saying: If I'm wrong prove me. No one is the owner of truth, he was giving a opinion, and I agree with him, it's intimidating and confusing.
- "They serve no useful purpose, and wouldn't be missed if eliminated": I do agree, what they do, can be done without the mini-icons. Why removing them must kill what they do? Just find a better way to do the work.
(you seem to passionate about this mini-icons stuff, hehehehe, but no problem, your work, I respect it).
- What it lacks is an extensive screen reader like GNOME's Orca": Do you really think our time is best spent spending time reimplementing Orca just so we have something in Qt?
So.. why is there khtml if gecko is way better? :D
- "Drag and drop between menus, the desktop, and the panel": Could you clarify if at last we can move itens in the menu? (like moving gimp from graphics to office)
- "A broader selection of widgets": you said you have 60 plasmoids, rmember, he is testing 4.0. There are very few plasmoids for KDE 4.0 currently, and yes, it will improva a lot in 4.1. Just a observation.
- "Improved interface word choices": Yep, less geek is better. We could, for example, stop using "device", "USB Mass Storage" for example, why not use what people talk, pendrive is a good word :)
Aside tose, agreed with your answers, well pondered.
Looks like we are all maturing in the road to KDE 4 (I mean, the true KDE4 = KDE 4.1, heheheheh)
Reguards! - 9/4/08 19:39
- DanaKil said...
well, the only real thing that prevent me from switching to KDE4 is... that I can't change desktop using the scroll wheel on the desktop :)
Otherwise, it's great... and a great reply Aaron
Cheers - 9/4/08 21:40
Can you, please give us some news about the Media Center?
An article talking about it would be fantastic, but at least some news in a comment would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance and congratulations for the great job done!
Poldark - 9/4/08 21:48
- Aaron J. Seigo said...
@nanday: "My point was less about what might happen in the future and what is happening now."
my point was not about what happened in the far past, but what has already happened in the recent (e.g. KDE and Qt 4)
"It was based on some interviews I've done recently about people involved in GNOME accessibility as both contributors and users."
Not to be too rough about it, but I find that the GNOME community is often less than informed about what is happening outside their realm. I run into this pretty consistently. =/
"The frustration that several users who are dependent on Orca to use a computer at all have with Qt apps, which they can't use."
Qt3 or Qt4? I'd be very surprised if it was Qt4, but if so, please let me know where the sticking points are. I'm guessing it's Qt3 based apps, however. - 9/4/08 22:27
- Aaron J. Seigo said...
@quintesse: "when programs written for Gnome don't integrate well with my desktop"
talk to the GNOME people about this. KDE is actually far, far more progressive when it comes to these issues than pretty much anyone else out there.
"actually I do,"
yes, i understand your POV. but you are not most users. i wish i could wave a magic wand and change that but i can't.
@iuri: "Why not use something like mouse gestures"
because those are even less discoverable than context menus. they also require a lot more pointer dexterity. i understand you are a power user with great mouse control, but you do not represent humanity. in fact, you are the exception.
"Sorry but looks like a child saying: If I'm wrong prove me."
there's a thing called "the scientific method". the way it works is through evidence and repeatable experiments attempted to disprove or uphold theory.
so if you think what i said there is like a child, then dismiss the rest of science as well.
"No one is the owner of truth,"
i'm not asking for truth, or saying i hold truth. i'm asking for evidence and data. if that is too much to ask, you have no business being anywhere near development.
" he was giving a opinion, and I agree with him, it's intimidating and confusing."
i can find all sorts of people who think that astrology is meaningful and even a few who hold the opinion the earth is actually flat. opinion is meaningless.
"why is there khtml if gecko is way better"
because khtml predates gecko.
because khtml/webkit actually has far more penetration in most markets than gecko (mac, mobile, ..)
because kthml/webkit addresses a very different user profile than gecko: light weight, easily embedable.
"Could you clarify if at last we can move itens in the menu?"
it's called 'kmenuedit'. enjoy.
"There are very few plasmoids for KDE 4.0 currently"
there are few plasmoids in kdebase and that is purposeful. the goal is to provide a core set of tools in kdebase, and provide the rest either in extragear, with their host applications or via GHNS. - 9/4/08 22:37
- Quintesse said...
"but you are not most users. i wish i could wave a magic wand and change that but i can't."
What? You wish to make me like most users? I'd rather wish you didn't, I like the way I am ;)
Anyway, I'm not sure I agree, I think it's pretty important if software is "discoverable". This works for single programs as well as entire DEs: it should be possible to explore your environment and discover for yourself what it's possibilities are. Of course even better if this is obvious from the start, but I think it's obvious that it is impossible to do that in all cases (like it's equally unlikely that you can make users read the manual first before using a program).
I just think that the new menu makes this discovery process more cumbersome thereby making it less likely that people will explore on their own what their distro installed for them.
Of course there might be other ways to "explore" that don't use the menu and leave it the way it is. A "tour" of your system comes to mind, but it should somehow adjust automatically to the programs installed. - 9/4/08 22:52
"we will go much further than just discovering services that exist, but also allowing publish/subscribe to widgets on the network on other devices."
There are so many fantastic possibilities that I had never thought of. I really did like the idea where you suggested widgets could be embedded in to web pages!
I'm thinking I've placed a bid on ebay and would like to track its progress so in a world where plasma apps were available on all major desktops ebay could have the 'your bidding on' section as a widget that you could just drag and drop on to your desktop. Or even the news section of BBC's homepage dragged and dropped on to the desktop. Obviously such major sites wouldn't adopt such technology without it being the mainstream but of course it would still be possible with the sites that already have the buy in like dot news. Truly inspiring thought, infact it seems such a fascinating idea why haven't flash done this yet boggles the mind!
My other thought is maybe Aaron's vision is truly inspired genius and it took me way too long to consider the possibilities.
before I big up Aaron too much he is still so incredibly wrong about kickoff, you can polish a turd as hard as you like but at the end of the day it's still just shit. - 9/4/08 23:03
Some one mentioned "Tastymenu". I think Linuxmint has the best implementation of it. I strongly suggest making it the default menu. It just needs a little more polishing and refinement to give both the old cascading menu features and usability minus all the gripes I read about the new Kickoff menu.
- 9/4/08 23:06
- Aaron J. Seigo said...
> he is still so incredibly wrong about
> kickoff,
dude, i hate application browsers in general. i think kickoff has real issues, at least on the applications page. which is why i've changed it somewhat in 4.1. unfortunately do to my whole "i hate application browsers in general" thing i have a hard time motivating myself to think about full on replacements for the menu.
i'm hoping/wishing/dreaming someone else who does care about them (e.g. uses them, relies on them and thinks they are a great idea) will come up with something great.
at the same time, i'm not going to stand idly by while people poke randomly at kickoff. there are high points to it, and there are probably solutions that don't suck to the Applications page.
and yes, please, take this turd off my hands and work on it or a solid replacement ;) - 9/4/08 23:26
Just yanking your crank at the end there, I apologise that was somewhat rude. I wished I could think of a superior alternative to the traditional K-menu, apart from the traditional k-menu with tabs out of kickoff 'hybrid' but I was wondering if that sort of thing would suit the needs of others and yes I know some do such as Hans Chen so I hope you don't mind me using your blog but would the 'hybrid' menu suit enough others to make the project worthwhile? Please people comment and let me in on your thoughts...
- 10/4/08 01:50
Ok lets all count to 10 and relax.
I understand we all have a lot of personal ego invested in our beliefs and projects but these strongly worded thoughts and rebuttals are shaving years off my life.
More time thinking over statements and relaxing and less gut laden rebutals will do us all well.
No need to embarrass our selfs in the permanent stores of the internet. - 10/4/08 07:46
- Iuri Fiedoruk said...
Ok, I admit the part about being childish was harsh, but your answers proved my points.
Clarify to me how clicking on a mini-icon THEN moving the mouse requires LESS control over the mouse than simply holding the mouse over the icon (larger area) and then moving the mouse.
Mouse gestures can be fairy easier than your idea of mini-icons, but it seems like those mini-icons are really your baby-ego talking, so looks like someone will have to come with a patch to override it, because you won't hear the void of reason. Too sad.
And about user not being able to find how to do it, ask about mac users that have to drop icons on the trashcan to uninstall, or apps in the desktop to install it. Just because you throw something in the user face, it does not mean it's easier man.
Your answers about khtml are all valid to a implementation of Orca in Qt, but you seems to use two measures too often Aaron.
>it's called 'kmenuedit'. enjoy.
It's been years sinse kde USERS ask about drag&drop in the menu, looks like kde DEVELOPERS are not able to implement it, sad, but true.
Scientific method heh?
Hundrends, or thousands of users telling you that is a bad idea is not scientific? Of, what do you want, a black hole in your code?
Are you trying to show you are smarter than me showing that you went to classes and learned the scientific method? Pathetic!
You did your agressive answer, now it's my turn.
The sad thing is that overall (exept the mini-icons part) I had agreed with you, but looks like we can't touch in that mini-icons issue without someone coming in fure, can we? :) - 10/4/08 13:08
- notanavragelosr said...
I read this blog post before I checked out the actual article. So, when I checked that out, I skimmed through it at best.
Did he mention how he was using KDE4? Was it distro packages? Did he build it himself?
If it was distro packages... eesh. I was running the stable branch on my openSUSE box. At first it was nice, but their package nomenclature kept changing, and they introduced regressions between releases. 4.0.3 was the last thing I got from the build service, and that was a huge step back. Didn't know if it was SUSE's fault or the developers, so I tried /TRUNK.
It's a huge improvement. More features and more stable. Love it.
But now I see where one of Bruce's complaint might have come from. Just following the guide on t.k.o, there aren't that many plasma widgets installed by default. And it's not painfully obvious as to how to install a bunch more at once (see openSUSE's "extragear-plasma" rpm). Actually, it's fairly ambiguous as to how to install anything that's not specifically addressed in the build guide on t.k.o. - 10/4/08 16:40
Appreciating the interaction ...
About the menu. Probably there is no one size that fits all and thus options are good.
Most of the OS menu concepts are unfortunately designed to save space rather than clicks or time. They are generally inefficient and frustrating to spacial thinkers (those which are first to turn off the auto-hide option for seldom used menu items on Windows and in MS Office).
As one such spatially oriented person, I have yet to find a menu that I really like (on any OS). My dream menu is resizable -- though I would keep it at its fullscreen size. Even more importantly all my programs would fit on it and so all be accessible in one click. Semi-transparent color backgrounds would separate the programs by category (and of course the shortcuts and their icons would be easily draggable and remember their position). A secondary tab or special icon would open the settings version of the menu which would display all of the settings related options in a like manner.
At least we can all dream, eh?
A big thanks to the KDE developers for all their effort,
P.S.: For similar argumentation with respect to visual memory (though implementation is still somewhat non-ideal in my view) see: http://www.vistastartmenu.com/cognition.html - 10/4/08 17:36
- Jakob Petsovits said...
The major problem with Kickoff's Applications tab is, imho, the lack of overview. The traditional menu has its weaknesses, but one of its strengths was that you can see the contents of multiple menu levels at once, and thus quickly browse through a lot of menus, which is needed when you don't know an app's name or location in the menu.
I wonder if the left/right list would be better off if it's transformed into a unfoldable treeview. - 11/4/08 04:47
- Leo S said...
>> If one makes usability statements, it's best to match them with testing (which isn't surveying, btw)
Well that's not entirely true. Conducting a survey is a perfectly valid and common methodology in software engineering. The problem is just that people think asking their friends is a survey.
>>there's a reason the microwave oven is so popular, and it's not because it's slow or difficult to use.
It also has nothing to do with its interface. It's popular because it makes food hot quickly. Most microwave interfaces aren't exactly awesome. And henning brings up an excellent point, which is that touch screens can't use hover interfaces at all.
>> now... as for touch screens not being the most common use case, let me just say two things:
>> a) for how much longer?
A very long time, if not forever. Touch screens have been around for ages, and yet people quickly realize that interacting with computers with your hand is only good for about 15 minutes before it gets tiring.
But anyway, I have no problems with mini icons or much else in plasma. 4.0 had a lot of issues, but now that debian has dropped it in favour of trunk, it is far, far improved. Painting speed has increased dramatically. Not perfect yet, but very good. - 11/4/08 05:53
- Janne said...
"A very long time, if not forever. Touch screens have been around for ages, and yet people quickly realize that interacting with computers with your hand is only good for about 15 minutes before it gets tiring."
You need to think outside the box for a while. When you think of "computers", you think of desktops and laptops. What about devices like the iPhone and the iPod touch? Those are, for all intents and purposes, computers as well.
And about 99% of all interaction with computers are done with hands. Touchscreen is just a tool, just like mouse and keyboard is. But in each case, we are using our hands. - 11/4/08 11:36
- Leo S said...
>> You need to think outside the box for a while. When you think of "computers", you think of desktops and laptops. What about devices like the iPhone and the iPod touch? Those are, for all intents and purposes, computers as well.
Of course they are also computers, but they are not even close to the majority and never will be. Yes small devices are increasing in usage, but they are not replacing desktop/laptops. There is nothing to replace the computers we work on 8 hours a day.
>> And about 99% of all interaction with computers are done with hands. Touchscreen is just a tool, just like mouse and keyboard is. But in each case, we are using our hands.
You deliberately misunderstand me. There is a huge difference between operating a mouse/keyboard and operating a touchscreen. Use a touchscreen instead of a mouse for an hour and you will immediately realize this. - 11/4/08 19:06
- dgoemans said...
I'm ultra impressed with KDE 4.03. Last night I somehow screwed up some stuff in my KDE 3 on the Asus EEE, so I logged into KDE 4, and was impressed with the stability and speed at which I could do things! On another note, one thing that holds me back from moving over fully is that I would have to re import my settings. For example, my Kopete config is setup for KDE 3, and I do want to use the new kopete, but am too lazy to redo my settings. Is there any project underway for this sort of thing. Is there any demand ( ie, worth me looking into it? ). Thanks again, KDE 4 is awesome!!!
- 15/4/08 08:51


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Home > News > Too Tiny for Trouble? Scientists Take a Look November 29th, 2005 Too Tiny for Trouble? Scientists Take a Look Abstract: Source:
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EOD Roundup
EOD Roundup: Barack Who? It's All About Thom Browne
7:00 pm, January 21st | by Sarah Devlin
In today's EOD roundup, Thom Browne is the hottest designer in town after Michelle Obama wore one of his coats today. Oh, and President Obama got inaugurated and stuff, we guess. [HuffPost Style]
If you're a woman who wants to make movies, the indie route is the way to go. [The Mary Sue]
Michelle Obama isn't above rolling her eyes at John Boehner, making her just like all of Congress and most of the country. [Mediaite]
Nigella Lawson won't let Anthony Bourdain get away with saying she's a great drinker. Huh? [The Braiser]
James Franco wrote a poem for the inauguration, so you should set phasers to LOL before clicking on this video, probably. [Jezebel]