text:
Guns, Injuries, Macho Culture Didn't Kill Jovan Belcher's Girlfriend. Jovan Belcher Did.
Were you disgusted by news coverage immediately following the death of Jovan Belcher?
Belcher was a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs who shot his girlfriend - and mother of his three-month-old daughter - dead after an argument. Belcher then drove to the Arrowhead Stadium practice facility to profusely thank general manager Scott Pioli and head coach Romeo Crennel for their roles in his career. He reportedly said, "I love you, bro" before shooting himself.
Fans and sportswriters tried to make sense of the Belcher violence, and with the suicide of San Diego Charger Junior Seau earlier this year in mind, they grasped at common straws that might tie the two acts together. But what separates Belcher from Seau - and other depressed athletes who've struggled with the fallout from a career of hard hits and head injuries - is that Junior's plight didn't end in the barbaric murder of his girlfriend and the orphaning of a three-month-old baby.
Jovan Belcher's suicide might have forced the question as to whether or not football has become too violent and punishing for its player, but killing his girlfriend elevates the action to something that cannot be justified by appeals to celebrity culture and pop psychology.
Or even readily explained by scientific research suggesting traumatic injury causes permanent brain damage and behavioral problems. Killing your girlfriend is not a "behavioral problem", it is a horrific, evil, cowardly act that is morally wrong to try to either explain or excuse through the science of battered brains.
Yet everyone seemed to want to blame Belcher's actions on something else. At CNN, former Democratic congressional candidate and Real World participant Kevin Powell talked about the problems of super-macho culture and the ready availability of guns. Bob Costas lost his nut when he turned the Jovan Belcher tragedy into an anti-gun rant. Costas has fallen further off the rails than Powell if he thinks a gun-free Belcher home would have also shown an absence of violence or murder.
Instead of immediately reaching for our nearest ideological hobby horse, let's stipulate an ugly truth: Sometimes people are bad.
Brain injury did not pull the trigger that blew away both of Zoey Belcher's parents one horrible Saturday morning. Jovan Belcher did, and for that he will rightly be remembered not as a big man, but as a bad man.
Produced by Tracy Oppenheimer. Written by Kennedy, who also hosts, and Nick Gillespie.
About 2:40 minutes.
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Don't be so ridiculous, Kennedy. It's racist to suggest anyone is responsible for their own actions.
I know! This is crazy talk. Us White Trash types aren't gonna be held responsible either.
Everything I do is the fault of the booze, oxy, PTSD, child abuse, and lead paint.
What, no meth? You jest, sir, you jest.
I forgot - blame that one on the pot.
Researchers find area in brain responsible for killing girlfriend in 3, 2, 1, ....
He was a jock, it's not like he was using that brain...
I think they found that part on the ceiling.
fMRI do'nt lie.
You can't hold people responsible for their own actions! Who will you sue?!?
I have no idea whom I'll sue.
Pedants are pedantic.
That makes a LOT of sense! You raise some very good points!
...Real World participant Kevin Powell talked about the problems of super-macho culture and the ready availability of guns.
Like I'm going to listen to a spawn of MTV anyway.
Win. Drop the mike and walk off stage.
*stands, applauds vigorously*
But he was also a former Democratic congressional candidate. A TOP. MAN. I'm sure.
It was a double derp, because, you know, Kennedy.
this kind of thinking that gets people branded as fringe characters and kooks. It's like Kennedy has no concept of what America is anymore, wanting to hold people accountable for things they do. Good grief; what will she suggest next? Something like govt living within its means?
If this poor woman was killed by any abstraction, it was anti-gun sentiment. If she'd been in a position to defend herself we'd still hear the tut-tutting about macho culture, but at least the aggressor would be on ice, not her
"If this poor woman was killed by any abstraction, it was anti-gun sentiment. If she'd been in a position to defend herself we'd still hear the tut-tutting about macho culture, but at least the aggressor would be on ice, not her"
You gotta be shittin' me. You have seriously escaped the bounds of reality if this is what you believe.
You 'Merkin Gun Nuts (tm) think that all gun threats can be met by a well-time draw at a mythical OK Corral, when data shows that, under pressure, the average dumbshit with a gun is likely to panic and shoot his spouse, kid or own goddam foot.
You 'Merkin Gun Nuts (tm) think that all gun threats can be met by a well-time draw at a mythical OK Corral, when data shows that, under pressure, the average dumbshit with a gun is likely to panic and shoot his spouse, kid or own goddam foot.
Uhmm which data would that be? That's right, none. Stupid.
There is ACTUAL data, that pretty much espouses the opposite conclusion. Look up any statistic on CCW, compare them to the general population, the police, whatever.
"Killing your girlfriend is not a "behavioral problem", it is a horrific, evil, cowardly act that is morally wrong to try to either explain or excuse through the science of battered brains."
Evil? Morality? Such quaint notions. Scientists have dissected thousands of corpses but they have never found either of those things in there.
Talking sense on a Friday? Are you mad (in the British sense), Kennedy?
And why isn't Kennedy investigating what this woman did to deserve being shot?
You mean being a woman wasn't enough?
Boy, did I find this article disturbing on a bunch of levels. I'm not quite sure how this guy's teammates were even able to bring themselves to go to his memorial service. Maybe they're still just in such a state of shock and denial that they're not quite thinking straight.
Although, in KC's defense: before last Sunday's game they observed a moment of silence for victims of domestic violence (not for Belcher) and they are not (at least last I heard) going to wear his number on their uniforms.
As a Chiefs fan who has followed this whole fiasco fairly closely, I'll say this: some nuance is required. While what Belcher did clearly was evil, I don't think the man underneath the act was evil. The team remembered Belcher as a good teammate, a hard worker, and a generally friendly person to be around. Reconciling that reality with what he did is a difficult thing. I don't know if you've ever known a murderer(I have, I knew David Attias, the Isla Vista car killer) , but sometimes a person snaps and does something wholly evil and it simply doesn't fit with the person you knew.
This process can be remarkably difficult. You don't approve of what the man did, but you recognize that the man you knew was not the man that did that. Belcher ended up taking his own life probably because he realized what he did and couldn't live with himself (after shooting his gf nine times, he bent over kissed her, apologized, and said he loved her).
Has anybody suggested male post-partum depression yet? I'm pretty sure you can get sympathy even for killing your kids with that one.
Why is it so outlandish to think that long-term brain damage might make people behave less rationally?
the guy was, what, 25 years old? What long term brain damage? Sometimes, bad people are just bad people. The NFL has had some of those, just like every other industry has.
Regular concussions dating back to high school isn't long-term enough for you? I mean, he might have just been naturally crazy, there's no hard evidence either way. But "NFL player commits suicide, autopsy shows him to have the brain of an Alzheimer's patient" is becoming a regular story on ESPN.
it's kind of hard to do an autopsy on the brain when it's splattered all over the ceiling.
Taking drugs for a long time will make people go stupid, that doesn't mean the blame suddenly shifts.
Also, exactly how many concussions did Belcher recieve over the course of his football career? Has the coroner's report shown evidence of permanent brain damage (other than what was caused by the bullet that is)? Was he under treatment for any psychological issues that could be caused by permanent brain damage as a result of concussions?
What's that? We don't know the answers to any of the above questions? Then maybe this is all just idle speculation on the part of a media obsessed with trying to explain every horrific act that someone commits while also pursuing their own pet causes and hobby horses.
The article doesn't dismiss the claims that Belcher's profession made him more prone to brain injury. It just says that rather than being linked to such injury, "Killing your girlfriend ... is a horrific, evil, cowardly act that is morally wrong to try to either explain or excuse through the science of battered brains."
So why is "brain damage might have caused Belcher's actions" a pet cause and hobby horse that his no place in the discussion, but "brain damage definitely did not contribute to Belcher's actions" fine and dandy?
There's NO FUCKING PROOF that "brain damage made him do it". That's what I said: it's all just speculation at this point. Until it is proven that he had permanent brain damage, I'm going with the simplest explanation, which is usually the best and most likely explanation for these kinds of things: Javon Belcher was an angry asshole who was just good at hiding it.
Hell, even if it does turn out that he had multiple concussions over the course of his career that caused some kind of permanent damage, there's no way to know for sure what set him off, so the simplest explanation is still the more likely. People need to just stop trying so fucking hard to explain away shit like this and just accept the truth. Sometimes people do bad things. Shit happens.
Loki, a better, more reasoned, approach would be to ask if there was a propensity towards violence on the part of the many, many other football players who have suffered concussions.
There is. Look at all the suicides of NFL players, pro-wrestlers, hockey players, soldiers serving in iraq/afghanistan (brain injury from explosions). Suicidality is homocidality turned inward.
There is so much evidence linking long-term mild repetitive brain injury and violent/erratic behavior, to deny it is ridiculous. What the fuck is your guys's argument, exactly?
This is all complicated and hard to think about though, so lets just call them evil. Also, climate change doesn't exist.
Well, I'd expect such an argument from a Believer.
Where is the control of big, burly men who grow flowers for a living and their incidence of depression. In other words, those people prone to "rough trades" and the a priori mental reasons for it. It's not too difficult to suppose that people who go in for football and wrestling and such will also be violent people in other situations. You have not addressed that in any way.
Choctaw, what is the "so much evidence", exactly? You heard it through the grapevine? It makes lots of sense to you?
The argument here is that there is really no compelling evidence linking long term brain injury and violent behaviour, to ASSERT it is ridiculous.
What can be gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied. -
I'm not sure who said concussions definitely led to Belcher's murder-suicide, but it wasn't me. You're complete right, we have no idea whether he had significant brain damage, and since he shot himself in the head it will almost certainly remain a mystery.
What I take issue with is Kennedy's statement that even if we knew for a fact that he was brain-damaged, it would still be "morally wrong" to link that to the killings, so it has no place in the discussion at all, regardless of the pattern of brain-damaged NFL players committing suicide.
Since plenty of players suffer such damage but DON'T murder their wives and kids, yes it's wrong to link it to the killings.
Plenty of schizophrenics don't kill anybody. Ergo, the ones that do turn violent are EVIL.
And plenty of people murder their wives and kids with perfectly healthy brains. And they don't need guns to do it.
An NFL linebacker is quite capable of killing with his bare hands.
And plenty of people murder their wives and kids with perfectly healthy brains. And they don't need guns to do it.
An NFL linebacker is quite capable of killing with his bare hands.
And plenty of people murder their wives and kids with perfectly healthy brains. And they don't need guns to do it.
An NFL linebacker is quite capable of killing with his bare hands.
And plenty of people murder their wives and kids with perfectly healthy brains. And they don't need guns to do it.
An NFL linebacker is quite capable of killing with his bare hands.
Also, does Kennedy believe that the insanity defense should be abolished, or that we should execute mentally incompetent defendants? I'm curious how far this "no amount of brain malfunction excuses murder" stance goes.
So it does make murder ok? Good to know.
Get it through your fucking right-wing unthinking brain: UNDERSTANDING THIS SHIT, REGARDLESS OF ITS EFFECTS ON YOUR PRECIOUS WORLDVIEW, WILL LESSEN ITS INCIDENCE IN THE FUTURE.
Because if people arent strictly rational, the whole "free minds and free markets" paradigm gets covered in icky nuance.
"Man, if people don't agree I'm really REALLY tall, they they must just not understand the nuance of my ickiness."
Yeah, cause that means we then need the strictly rational TOP.MEN to manage everything for people.
No, but it does mean that you can't always assume voluntary exchange necessitates both parties are better off.
No, but it does mean that you can't always assume voluntary exchange necessitates both parties are better off.
That assumption isn't made by libertarians.
Fascination with Utopian outcomes (and belief, or at least argument, that they are possible) is pretty much the hallmark of leftists.
Who ever said they were? The issue is do they THINK they will be better off making the trade or not. No one has ever said they may not be remorseful for the trade a day or a year or a decade afterward. The idea is whether a supposed know-it-all gets to interfere for everyone, everywhere based on THEIR own value judgments so as to make things, on net, better. That is simply an impossibility on the face of it. But the Believers believe and they set about trying to be mother to everyone. And when failure to have an affect reveals itself, they just redouble their efforts and try and gain more access to the right to program people to think the right way and so make correct choices. And all they do is create more problems than existed before and do little to nothing about the original problem.
Long story short, freedom is a double edge sword and it can be good or bad. Only time can tell. And those self appointed who deem to be able to use offensive Force to interfere don't have the prescience they think they have. They're just lashing out due to their own superstitions just like any other fear laden Statist sap.
Bob Costas suffers from guilty white liberal syndrome. he has to protect his 'property'. after seeing him fist bump Hines on the NBC set in the Superdome, he's not going to bite the hands that feeds, young dumb black kids, so he blames the gun, not the shooter.
Or he could just be a liberal douche.
Or he could be brave enough to talk the truth.
And it's you gun-fetishing fktards who can't seem to get around your love of killing things.
What's the boogerman that you guntards are so afraid of?
Is he hiding in the closet? Coming over the border? Looking to rape yer wymynfolk? -
Shut the fuck up Kennedy. Just shut the fuck up. You don't know anything about anything and your mouth diarrhea is stinking up the place.
Shut the fuck up Warren. Just shut the fuck up. You don't know anything about anything and your mouth diarrhea is stinking up the place.
I don't think anybody could have put it better than you darius.
I'm not saying that concussions played any role in this; I don't have any facts on that one way or the other. However, I have seen dramatic changes in personality, usually becoming short tempered and more violent, in guys who sustained traumatic brain injuries (i.e. severe concussions) from IEDs in Iraq. Throw in a little PTSD, and some of these guys were like sweaty dynamite. One guy in particular that I remember was so laid back before his TBI that you would have thought he was on benzos. Nothing riled him. Afterwards, he was always pissed off, and would start a fight if he thought you looked at him sideways.
I've known some people who have joined the military and became assholes without seeing any hot action whatsoever. It's part of the experience. My own brother, who was home on leave before being sent to Germany, was a substantially different person and that was just being stateside in the first two years of his four year hitch.
People are simply over thinking a lot of this. Men being men being programmed to be violent tend to be violent. It doesn't take being hit the head a lot, making it an organic thing. A lot of it is simply programming.
O....kay, Warren.
Costas is a pompous ass and self-proclaimed gatekeeper. Dude still rails against blogs I bet. I won't take anything away from his excellent skills, but he should stick to that.
I remember back in 1996 when Donovan Bailey won the 100 m dash. But Costas called Michael Johnson 'the fastest man alive' after winning the 200. Up until that point, the fastest man alive was always considered to be the 100 winner. Suddenly, Costas switches. Maybe because Bailey was Canadian, who knows? Now it's reverted back. No one would suggest Usain Bolt ain't the fastest guy on limbs.
Costas had nothing to back him up then and he certainly is skating on specious ground here. I just don't understand the mindset. O'Reilly cleverly got him to admit that if given the choice between being armed and protecting himself and hiding under a chair hoping and praiyng, Costas would go with the latter.
He had invested so much pseudo-intellectual energy building to that conclusion O'Reilly forced him to expose how utterly degenerate it really was.
If O'Reilly actually managed to corner him... Well that sure does say something.
This is super easy for pop culture to figure out if he doesn't kill himself. Then, he's Ray Carruth. Easy to find the right recycling bin on that one. But then he goes and kills himself, and suddenly, it's tragic. You're right about one thing, Kennedy. Actually two things. The sweater is a good look, almost as iconic as the jacket. But the other thing is that he's just a bad guy. And we don't have any recycling bins for bad guys. I guess they just get put out with regular trash.
I think that saying "It's just because he's evil" is every bit as simplistic as saying "Guns or macho attitude made him do it." There's probably a culmination of a lot of things that happened along the way that we can never know or understand.
I'd love to see you guys react to late-stage dementia patients who cuss, punch, kick, scream, throw their feces and do horrible shit all the time. They're just bad people right? Can't blame brain damage at all.
I know, two people are dead and you want blood, but if we could understand concussions/brain injury better, we could maybe prevent this shit from happening in the first place. Branding someone with a scarlet E for EVIL because they did an EVIL THING guarantees this'll happen again.
So Michael Vick is evil because he engaged in dog fighting, but Belcher shoots and kills the mother of his baby, and he's just had too many concussions.
I dont recall Phil Hartmans wife playing football or most of the murder suicides that happen every year. Sometimes people are just broken, evil, bad or whatever label you choose. Shit happens move on and quit looking for someone to blame.
Is she evil?
People kill people with guns in this country because they can.
Guns didn't force Belcher to kill his girlfriend, but they picked up the primary assist.
The day 'Merkins admit that guns are your country's curable cancer is the day you grow up. Until then, enjoy killing each other. And then spending time on comment boards fapfapfapping about how guns aren't to blame. -
As if a 250 lb NFL player lacks any other way of killing his 120 lb girlfriend...
Hello Mary Stack of Forth Worth, Texas. So nice to see you back again.
Dallas Cowboy Jerry Brown was recently killed when the car he was riding in, driven by his drunk teammate, crashed. The driver, Josh Brent, was arrested for intoxicated manslaughter. What gets the "primary assist" on this one? The car? The alcohol? Football? Concussions? Alcohol is America's curable canc-, oh wait, Fast cars are America's curable canc-, no, wait, Winding roads are America's curable canc.......blah blah blah.
thank you
More crap from Reason. Everyone is individually responsible for their actions. There is no such thing as "culture." It is a collectivist notion. Everyone behaves in their own self-intrest. Either that or they are "evil." Real scientific a term, there, Reason? The man was raised in a culture where "becoming a man" was code for "kicking the shit out of someone." That didn't affect him at all? Because if you criticize their culutre(I say "their" because almost everyone here is a white nerd), your a "socon."
Topic aside, that SWEATER just triggers all kinds of memories of growing up in the mid-west in the 80s...
Wow - I though I'd lost all those memories! +1 for sweaters on cute and intelligent women!
The biggest thing that stood out for me with regard to Costas was that he(and Whitlock) said the GF would still be alive if not for a gun. First, that is pure speculation meant to push a leftist anti-gun agenda. Second, I'm fairly positive people were murdered long before guns and football. Third, guns are inanimate objects. They do NOTHING unless activated by a user. Do we blame the camera for child pornography? A gun does not a murderer make.
The latest around town is that they were arguing over paternity of little Zoey.


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Source: Industry and Higher Education, Volume 26, Number 1, February 2012 , pp. 71-72(2)
Publisher: IP Publishing Ltd
Document Type: Miscellaneous
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.5367/ihe.2012.0084
Publication date: February 1, 2012
Industry and Higher Education, published six times a year, is dedicated to all aspects of the relationship and interaction between higher education institutions and business and industry. With a strong emphasis on practical experience, this peer-reviewed journal covers strategic, organizational, economic, political, legal, and social issues relating to the developments in education-industry collaboration. Topics such as knowledge transfer, regional development and entrepreneurship education are key concerns. For more details, see www.ippublishing.com.
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Anyone emotionally invested in a Democratic Congressional takeover might want to consider making a financial investment too. (All those opposed, click here.) That's because the Washington Post is reporting that Republican incumbents in the most competitive races hold a 2-to-1 cash-on-hand advantage over their Democratic challengers, with an average disparity of nearly half a million bucks. As Michael Crowley points out over at TNR, those dollars may well erode gaudy Democratic poll numbers, and may mean the home stretch is a lot tighter than it looks today, three weeks out.
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Definition of surplus value in English:
surplus value
Line breaks: sur|plus valuenoun
- (In Marxist theory) the excess of value produced by the labour of workers over the wages they are paid.More example sentences
- At a certain point it is confronted with the fact that it is a claim on surplus value and this surplus value has to be actually extracted from the working class.
- Out of the growing mass of surplus value, capitalist governments were able to finance social welfare spending and other concessions to the working class.
- Surplus labour creates surplus value, and on Marx's analysis, surplus value is the source of all profit.


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Tue, 14 January 2014
Tim Karr explains what today's DC court ruling against Net Neutrality means. The Nicole Sandler Show on RadioOrNot.com
Direct download: 1-14-14_Tim_Karr_with_Nicole_Sandler_on_Net_Neutrality_ruling.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 6:14 PM |
Tue, 4 June 2013
Jacob Dean and Skeptical Scott fill in for Nicole and speak with David Pakman on the David Pakman Show on FSTV. Plus Founder of Occupy Democrats Omar Rivero and much more! Recorded on 6/4/2013 |
Wed, 6 February 2013
Nicole gets the story on the Filibuster from Gregory Koger (author of "Filibustering"). Amy Simon tells about inspiring women, including Malala, and Crooks & Liars' John Amato talks about drones and more
Direct download: 20130206_Nicole_Sandler_Show_-_Drones__Filibusters.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 5:39 PM |
Thu, 31 January 2013
Nicole recaps yesterday's Senate hearing on gun violence with some help from Cliff Schecter. Plus, Current TV's John Fugelsang weighs in on the season of hearings in DC and guns too.
Direct download: 20130131_Nicole_Sandler_Show_-_guns_in_the_news_again.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 5:25 PM |
Mon, 14 May 2012
Nicole talks about 50 Shades of Grey, Mitt Romney and more. Guests are NC primary winner/Congressional candidate Patsy Keever and Crooks & Liars' Nicole Belle |
Thu, 26 April 2012
Nicole speaks with The Nation's Antonia Jujasz about her stunning report on the health concerns from the BP spill, two years later. Also, Aaron Krager on yesterday's protest at the GE shareholders meeting, and Tim Karr of Savetheinternet.com on CISPA.
Direct download: 20120426_Nicole_Sandler_Show_-BP_Toxicity.mp3
Category:general -- posted at: 4:40 PM |
Tue, 3 January 2012
Nicole speaks with Kenneth Quinnell about the Iowa Caucuses happening tonight; John Fleinbatt - Mayor Bloomberg's Chief Policy Advisor - about their investigation into online gun sales; and GottaLaff of The Political Carnival on the news |
Wed, 12 October 2011
Nicole speaks with emptywheel.com's Marcy Wheeler and Crooks & Liars' John Amato. Plus Ted Rall from DC's #Oct6 rally and Nicole's thoughts on the for profit health insurance industry (NSFW) |
Mon, 26 September 2011
Nicole talks about #OccupyWallStreet, and this weekend's show of brutality by the NYPD. Guests are Carrie Stone, who's walking from WV to DC for the October2011.org protests, Karl Frisch and C&L's Nicole Belle |
Wed, 14 September 2011


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President: Allison Cegla
Originally from St. Louis Park Minnesota, Allison is majoring in organizational communication and minoring in web design and development. She is currently the PR & Marketing intern with Big Brothers Big Sisters of Northwestern Wisconsin. Allison hopes to have a great year with CJO and hopes to increase membership!


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Volunteer Opportunities
volunteer ambassadors needed United Community AIDS Network need volunteers to represent the organization in participating restaurants during Dining Out for Life on April 26. Volunteers will greet and thank diners, and answer questions about the event. They will also hand out donation and door prize envelopes to diners. Mandatory training sessions are set for April 5 and 12 at UCAN, 317 Fourth Ave. E., Olympia; volunteers must attend one training. Go to diningoutforlife.com/tacoma/volunteer for more information.
RETIRED & SENIOR VOLUNTEER PROGRAM (RSVP) places volunteers older than 55 in a variety of positions throughout Thurston, Mason and Lewis counties. Current opportunities include: project developer and homebound meal driver for Senior Services for South Sound; Homework Club volunteer for Mercy Housing Northwest; Greeter for Volunteer Chore Services, Catholic Community Services; farm crew member, Left Foot Organics; and mentor for Big Brothers/Big Sisters. Assignments can be short projects or on-going. Contact Jennifer Thompson at 360-943-2773, ext. 21, or go to unitedway-thurston.org, and select RSVP.
Olympia farmers market needs volunteers to help the public with recycling and composting at its waste centers. No handling or lifting is expected. Individuals, groups and organizations are welcome. Training is provided. Volunteers are needed anytime between 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. Thursdays-Sundays. Call Spencer Orman, 360-753-8752, or email firstname.lastname@example.com for more information. Learn more at olympiawa.gov/employment-and-volunteering.aspx.
tumwater farmers market needs volunteers to help organize and promote events as well as serve on the planning board. The Tumwater Farmers Market operates mid-day every Wednesday, June through October. Call 360-464-5879 to help out.
sound learning in Shelton provides alternative education opportunities for adults in both basic skills (reading, writing, math and GED prep) and English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL). There are many opportunities to get involved, including as an adult education tutor, a children's program volunteer, or a general volunteer to help with special projects and/or office administration. Call 360-426-9733, or go to soundlearning.com for an application.
the ywca of olympia needs volunteers to fill the following openings: day center hostess, serving homeless women for two-hour shifts during the winter months; office volunteers for four-hour shifts; and volunteers to stock the shelves of The Other Bank on Tuesdays. In addition, the YWCA always accepts donations of hygiene items such as shampoo and dish soap. Call Bree Lafreniere at 360-352-0593 to volunteer or donate.
GIRL SCOUTS OF WESTERN WASHINGTON We have many girls in Thurston County interested in Girl Scouts and we need adult volunteers. We are looking for adults to work with Brownie Girl Scouts in grades 2-3. Other age levels are also available. Call 253-798-5015, or log on to the web site and complete a Volunteer Application: GirlScoutsWW.org Click "Volunteer" then "Apply Today".
aarp tax-aide program needs volunteer tax counselors to provide free income tax assistance and counseling to low- and middle-income taxpayers, particularly those age 60 and older. Volunteers will be trained during December and January. Computer skills are required. Volunteers of all ages and backgrounds are welcome. Counselors are expected to work a minimum of four hours per week. The program also is recruiting technical people who have a computer hardware or software background as well as front desk staff. To register, call 888-687-2277 or go to aarp.org/taxaide.
boots to shoes foundation is a nonprofit organization founded by two Washington businessmen to show their appreciation to military service members. Volunteer mentors attend a free mentoring workshop, then are paired with a veteran who they meet with twice a month. Mentors provide insight into the civilian workforce and discuss career goals and job search strategies. Go to bootstoshoes.org.
The Center for natural lands management needs volunteers for Tuesdays and the second Saturday of each month to gather at a South Puget Sound prairie preserve to do critical environmental restoration work. Activities range from burning brush piles and planting native wildflowers and grasses, to native plant seed collection and cleaning. Call 360-570-0762 or email firstname.lastname@example.com to volunteer.
friends of paul grudis needs volunteers to purchase and deliver nutritious snacks for the homework club at Evergreen Vista. Also needed are donations of housewares, bedding, towels and kitchen wares. Several volunteers are needed each month. Call Lindsay at 360-352-1315.
Dispute Resolution Center needs volunteers to help people resolve their conflicts with friends, neighbors, families, co-workers, landlords or businesses. Learn how to be a neutral listener for four hours per week. Call 360-956-1155.
kokua needs volunteers to "Be a Buddy" to an adult with disabilities. Volunteers are partnered with an individual with similar interests to go on outings or visit in the client's home. Must be age 18 or older and pass a background check. Contact Randi Miller at 360-705-4665, ext. 120.
The Olympia-Lacey-Tumwater Visitor & Convention Bureau needs volunteers to staff the visitor center on the Capitol Campus. Volunteers will work shifts between 10 a.m.-5 p.m. and must enjoy greeting visitors and helping them find information about the Campus and Thurston County. Contact Cathy Mah at 360-704-7544 or firstname.lastname@example.com.
Providence St. Peter Hospital needs volunteer gift shop workers. Profits from the gift shops fund equipment for the hospital. Call volunteer services at 360-493-7482.
THE CRISIS CLINIC OF THURSTON AND MASON COUNTIES needs volunteers for its Crisis Line and Youth Help Line. Volunteers, after receiving 60 hours of training, offer free, anonymous, confidential, and nonjudgmental crisis intervention over the phone 24 hours a day, seven days a week. For details about the training call David at 360-586-2888 ext. 103, or log on to: crisis-clinic.org. The Crisis Clinic also needs volunteers for its working board.
The North Olympia Fire Department needs volunteers to create websites, maintain vehicles, promote life safety education or work with teen fire cadets. Contact Lt. Derek Hall at 360-705-0234 or email@example.com.
The American Red Cross Mount Rainier Chapter needs volunteers to support military service members and military families with emergency communications and casework services. Call 360-352-8575.
Friend to Friend needs volunteers to visit with residents in nursing, assisted-living and retirement homes throughout Thurston County. Call 888-383-7818.
Rosie's Place which serves homeless and high-risk youth and their families, has a variety of volunteer opportunities. Contact Susan Alexander at firstname.lastname@example.com or 360-943-0780, ext. 116.
City of Olympia Safe & Sober Driving needs volunteers who have been injured or have had a loved one injured or killed by a drunken driver to share their stories with the DUI Victim Impact Panel. Call 360-753-8284.


text:
London - Arsenal squandered a golden opportunity to get back in the Premier League title race as Wigan scored three times in the last 10 minutes to clinch a remarkable 3-2 win at the DW Stadium on Sunday.
Goals from Theo Walcott and Mikael Silvestre had given Arsene Wenger's side a 2-0 lead by the 48th minute, but Ben Watson reduced the deficit in the 80th minute to spark a stunning meltdown from the Gunners.
A horrific mistake by Arsenal goalkeeper Lukasz Fabianski gifted Wigan an equaliser in the 89th minute as the Pole dropped a corner onto Titus Bramble for the defender to head home.
Then in stoppage time, winger Charles N'Zogbia cut across the edge of the Arsenal penalty area and curled a superb shot past Fabianski to shatter Wenger's men.
The defeat - Arsenal's third in a row - leaves the north London club six points behind leaders Chelsea with only three games to play and effectively ends their title bid.
Wigan's fightback means Roberto Martinez's team are now seven points away from the relegation zone and virtually guaranteed to stay up.
Later on Sunday, already-relegated Portsmouth host Aston Villa, who retain an outside chance of winning a place in the Champions League via a top-four finish.
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text:
Dec 22, 2011 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: Daily Mail
To some, the crisis over the Falklands may sound like the plot of an Ealing comedy, with no place in the real world of the 21st century.
"Progressive liberal politic" Since: Sep 11 4,781 Location hidden |
Judged: 4 2 2 |
Brecon, UK |
Judged: 3 2 2 |
"Fly low, fly fast." Since: Apr 07 14,646 East Midlands, UK |
Judged: 3 3 1 |
Judged: 5 3 3 Since, some sort of elected council has been rushed through (but political parties are banned!) that in principle advises the chief executive still nominated by the British government. In spite of what is said, democracy doesn't flourish in the Falklands, and the Islanders - in theory British - have no right of abode on mainland, nor do they have representation in Parliament. The Falklands are no better than Hong Kong was. So, the Argentine are at least correct when they say it's still a British colony: it's run as such. |
"Progressive liberal politic" Since: Sep 11 4,781 Location hidden |
Judged: 2 2 1 If UK see Falklands as "colony" and not as equal UK-land and equal UK-citizens, then is sure that at the future will loose them. For the same reason, destroyed the British Empire. Because all "colonies" was colonies and not equal, and for this reason wanted be independent. |
Spain |
Judged: 4 2 1 |
Camberley, UK |
Judged: 3 1 1 Nope. The falklands is in international waters and has only ever been populated by brits. Nobody else should deserve anything since they havent contributed anything. |
"The Three Legged Man" Since: Jul 11 1,178 UK |
Judged: 4 2 1 Funny sort of logic you have. The Falklands are British, they're staying British, and you don't have to like it, Pedro. |
Colonialism does have a destructive impact on indigenous culture,Spain in the New World eg.Spain's goals were Religious conversion and trade[gold and silver]Indigenous religious items, sculpture, jewelry were melted down and art destroyed.
Judged: 1 1 1 |
Judged: 4 2 2 Yeah, the Falklands maybe called British, but their inhabitants are second-class British citizen: they aren't even allowed to vote or live in Britain! As far as I am concerned, Argentina could have the place. This 2 islands have cost the British taxpayers a fortune to defend and protect, and we will never get any benefit from them. An amicable agreement with Argentina to transfer the sovereignty to them step by step would have been a wise move; instead of what it did cost lives and millions of pounds to defend. It's funny to consider that Westminster wouldn't move a finger to stop Scotland splitting with the Union, but we go and shed blood for 2 desolate islands far away from here. |
Judged: 4 2 2 Why do you think they are called MALVINAS, or Iles Malouines then? The first settlers were French fishermen from St Malo. |
Judged: 1 1 1 |
"The Three Legged Man" Since: Jul 11 1,178 UK |
Judged: 2 2 1 If they're not allowed to vote or live in this country then that's a separate issue that should be addressed on its own. The fact stands that Falkland Islanders are Brits, the Falkland Islands belong to Britain, and they shouldn't be abandoned to Argentina. If people aren't important to you, then think of the oil there. Or are profits only a concern to you when they provide an excuse to shit on white Brits? |
Judged: 3 2 1 The Falklands were 'acquired' in a very suspicious way, to say the least, at the time when Spain was relinquishing its sovereignty over Argentina. That the Falklands Islands became British owes more to gunboat diplomacy than to inherent rights. Argentina had indeed a very strong case in international law until it blotted its copybook by invading them. No, the people living there shouldn't be forgotten, but for the moment, they are unashamedely used by Britain to pursue its claim. Bring enough people to a place you previously invade, to claim it as your own. Sounds very imperialistic to me; not my taste at all. How long will you believe that you need to control a place to have access to its resources? If oil is found around the Falklands, it will get on the oil market, and oil companies, British and else could help exploit it and market it too. After all, we buy oil and gas from our enemies, and we even help them exploiting it! So, cooperation in the exploitation of resources is more important than ownership. Why couldn't a Argentino-British consortium exploit energy from the Falklands (if there is any), it works well in other places. My point is that the present British stance on the Falklands cannot be maintained in the long run, and that a 'face-saving' compromise is better than loosing them in the distant future, when a British government will consider that the price of defending them is exhorbitant. |
"Fly low, fly fast." Since: Apr 07 14,646 East Midlands, UK |
Judged: 3 1 1 Perhaps now is the time for all the South American nations to launch a strike against the islands, overwhelm the four Typhoons based there and give the great British empire a damn good, well deserved thrashing. |
Judged: 2 1 1 I will never advocate for Argentina to take possession of the Falkland Islands by force, like Britain did more than a century ago. Two wrongs don't make one right. But the British capability to defend its cherished possession in the South Atlantic is increasingly diminishing, and that should be obvious around the negotiation table at the next round of talks. Argentina has just to sit tightly and wait. Britain will slowly loose interest in these islands, I believe, but the subject is still too vivid in the collective memory to make a decision about them. |
Brighton, UK |
Judged: 2 2 1 lol..They would need to join together as only 28 Royal Marines or so and some islanders held off the invasion last time before the governor told them to surrender...pmsl.. Only one sub is enough to sink troop ships, and to try and parachute in now a fortified island would be plain stupid.,maybe if the Diego's considered giving what is Argentina back to the indians just maybe then,but even then there were no indiginous inhabitants. |
Judged: 4 2 2 |
Slough, UK |
Judged: 2 1 1 We have the second largest navy in the world. They can come and fight for it if they want. I would sign up straight away.......... without a doubt. Beats fighting for americas colonial intrests. Argentina only want it now we have discovered plenty of oil and gas their. http://www.fogl.com/fogl/en/home Them f gots can kiss my ass if they think we are giving them anything. If they fight then we should slaughter every one of them. |
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Hello Everyone! I was wondering if anyone has tried the Quick Service Dining Plan (with just quick service meals) and if so, how did you like it? Do you feel like you missed out not doing any sit down meals? We thought about trying it one time, but I love the sit down meals SO MUCH that I am afraid I will be disappointed. Please share your experience with me.
Hi TJ, No, my family has not done just the QS of the DDP, we have done the plan that includes QS & TS. For us yrs ago we found the DDP a benefit, but really not now. The only thing is your food is prepaid for, now keep in mind that once you select the plan and you have days you were not able to use you will loose them. I suggest looking on the internet and researching the menus ( I think allears) has them. look at the selections and then based on that I would do a comparison on what the DDP for QS will cost and see if you are really saving any $$$. hope that gives you some help.
Hi there, we had never opted for the DDP before last year and we only took it because it was included in the price. We got the QS, there is only the 2 of us, myself and hubbie. I found it to be a saving in general as mentioned already the cost of meals are already paid for, however because we did other parks during our stay we didn't really save that much had we had to buy the DDP. At the end of the vacation we still had loads of credits left. We got our breakfast each morning at the resort and then had a QS lunch at whatever WDW park we were are that day and then maybe had a wee snack at night if we fancied. I guess it depends on how you are planning your stay on how you would use the package.
We would never be able to do just the quick service. We have our TS places that are must hits each time we go. I know that we would be disappointed with only the QS plan.


text:
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text:
On the Beach
Fiction, Male/Female
Author's infos
Gender: Male Age: Secret Location: Australia
Posted: 2013-12-07
A man more than enjoys his jog on the beach
On the Beach
The storm had just past, waves washed swiftly against the shore as the glow of the moon illuminated across the glassy water. The smell of rain and salt hung heavily in the air. The beach sand was damp, as his feet slapped against its firmness. He had been jogging for about three kilometers and had now decided to stop. It was warm the air had an electric feel to it, like it was about to have another round of thunder and lighting. He figured he would be home by then, showered and rested after his evening run. He leaned forward pressing his hands against his feet. His muscled legs stretched, all of him was well muscled, not to steroid extremes but more to a finely tuned state. He was wearing a tight grey sweet shirt and a pair of long running pants, the attire added to his athletic body, even in the slight moon light. As he went through a variety of stretches, from the dunes someone watched him with interest.
Sitting against the small dune face, she observed this stranger, he lived near by and she had noted him on occasion at the local shops as well as running about working his toned body into a sweet. It was as he ran that she had first noticed him, his strong frame and tear drop shaped legs that powered his sexy body as he ran down the road or along the beach. She was short, with a slender young body, she had often roused mens attention as she bathed at the beach in a provacative two piece. She hoped she would arose his interests.
" Hello, I didn't see you there" He said snapping her out of her daze.
" Oh hi...have a good run ?" she asked as he walked over to her. The wind carried his musky sweaty scent. It smelt of after-shave and the spice of his sexy body odour. He wiped his brow.
" Yeah, I thought Id take in the scenery. It only seems to get better though." He said smiling.
" Why thank you, my name is Krystal by the way, I live not to far from you." she added enjoying his smile and warm eyes.
The pair spoke for several long minutes, when the conversation was disrupted by a loud thunder clap. Moments later rain pelted down stinging them with its coolness.
Krstal raised the blanket and offered him to join her in the slight shelter as the pair made their way towards a wooden shelter only a few meters away along the beach.
His body was hot against hers, at this close proximity he smelt delicious she thought. They made it to the shelter, while it was raining the storm had ensured that it was not cold. So the pair were not to concerned about running to more enclosed shelter.
" I guess I am having my shower here at the beach now" He joked.
" I can't complain about the company." He added, she smiled back a devilish glimmer in her eyes. He was sitting next to her, their shoulders rubbed, both were gazing at the waves. He offered small talk, but it always ended gently with a slight lull of silence.
She turned to him, not saying anything she acted on a strange impulse. She had to have him...the storm and the exotic nature of the situation strengthed her passion. Their lips pressed into one another's, at first he did not respond. After a long second he kissed her back. Slowly tongues met and danced within the hot confines of their mouths. His hands rubbed her shoulders as he tilted his head slightly adding more intensity to the kiss. Her hand dropped to his lap, escalating the strange unexpected coupling. She rubbed his growing erection through his pants he groaned as she did this. Boldly she reached under and slid her hand into his pants, her small hands grasped his hot shaft head. It felt large and defined. All the while the pair kissed. He reached behind her and cupped her back massaging her smoothly as she wrapped her fingers tighter around his round cock-head. He broke the kiss and looked at her briefly, he then moved his lips to her neck where he started planting small and delicate kisses, slowly up her neck and back down to her chest. Her breathing increased as outside the lightning flickered.
She sighed as he cupped her left breast, his tumb pressing into its nipple. His other hand was wrapped under her shoulder and rubbed her back. He had now gone back to kissing her, his lips bit down on hers, his mouth tasted sweet. Like fresh rain water. His breathe was hot.
He stepped back, he was now standing and she sitting looking at him hungrily, biting her lower lip. He raised her shirt above her head, she was wearing no bra. His eyes drank in the pert firmness of her breasts, they were enough to fill his hands. He lowered him self kneeling between her open thighs. His mouth engulfed one breast at a time as his tongue swirled teasing the nipple. They were hard, he bit down on them gently, his hands went between her thighs under her skirt to her hot center as his mouth devoured her breasts. With one hand her rubbed her through her now very damp silky thong, she shuddered as he did this, he found her clit and brushed against it nicely. He now kissed between her breasts, she arched her head back as he traced kisses down to her stomach and then under her skirt.
She had now parted her thighs far enough as to allow his head complete access between her legs and under her short skirt. She held his head as she felt his tongue slide over the material covering her burning mound. He teased her with his mouth as he blew hot air against her only to follow it up with his cool tongue. Around them the waves began to crash into the beach as the lightning lit up the night sky.
Pulling her saturated thong down her legs he layed her onto the bench and found her naked mound with his mouth. He rubbed her upper legs as he worked over her clitoris with his tongue, occasionaly he would bite it not hard, but enough to make her jolt in pleasure. The moment had now caught up with her as her body began to react to his intensifying actions, like the storm around her she was ready to explode. A loud thunder burst shook them both, it was enough to send her over the rift. She screamed, her body twisted in delight as his mouth and hands continued their probings into her. Her shriek of ecstasy was drowned out by the storm.
Kissing her lightly he looked up at her heaving chest, his groin was now a sizeable land mark on his rippled and hard body. She noticed it, still breathing heavily she stood up. Kissing him hard, she reached down and stroked his mast, un-knowingly the pair stumbled into the open. Rain splashed across them as they continued their hot passionate motions. Falling to the wet sand she parted her legs, he entered her with one long thrust that seemed in time with a bolt of lighting.
His now naked butt arched high as he slid his hardness deep into her, the rain soaked their bodies, it no longer stung it was more of a soothing splashing. Reaching under her lower back he griped her flesh, pulling her up onto him she now had her legs over his hips. She rolled her hips over him feeling him slide into her. With his strong legs he pulled himself up and had her resting on him as he raised her up and down. He was standing in the rain with her wrapped around him clutching him as they furiously joined.
She bit into his neck as she felt herself cum, this one felt more intense, her legs tightened as the waves of pleasure swept over her. As she tightened he fell back onto the sand. He too was feeling the inevitable, his balls tightened and jetisoned their hot contents deep into her. She could feel her insides awash with his hot liquid. She felt full and complete. Her orgasm subsided as he continued sliding into her.
He carried her to the shelter, her dress soaked, he too was damp and covered in sand. It was worth it they thought. He placed her onto the bench and laid her back against the wall. He smiled as he knelt between her legs. His tongue slid deep into her, she watched on. He lapped up his cum and her juices, she could see his thick white load slide down her leg, but his tongue darted out and cleaned it from her. He kissed and licked for some time, giving her a smaller orgasm.
After kissing for some while and enjoying the now calming scenery the pair dressed. He offered to drive her home as his car was not that far. The pair walked passed an old man fishing, he threw his line out into the water as he stood waist high in the salty water. The storm continued far in the distance, the night was again bright.
" Caught anything ?" Krystal asked the man as he looked over straining to see the pair.
" Not yet, but I hope to net something tonight just as well as you did." He smiled.
They pair blushed, back at her house, they showered. That though is a whole nother story.
Oct 2001 un-edited
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- ... http://www.perlmonks.org/?node=424075 ... There s a huge cost to learn a new language to the point of being able to think differently. Why not learn howMar 29 2:11 PMView SourceDavid Wheeler writes:
> It seems to me that if you know nothing about logic programming, then
> you can't really think that way in Perl.
> If you learn Haskell, it can then help you to think new ways in
There's a huge cost to learn a new language to the point of being able
> Perl.
to think differently. Why not learn how to use Perl more effectively?
> You learn new languages to think different Perl.
It seems to me that you are saying: You have to learn German to
understand psychology well. Jung and Freud were German, but the world
of psychology has grown, and now, I would argue, it is more important
to know English (another evolutionary language :-) than German to
understand psychology.
Rob - ... Wait. That sounds like Rob .... ;c) (kidding) ... Wait. That *also* sounds like Rob ... ... (not kidding!)Apr 8, 2005View SourceGreg C wrote:
Wait. That sounds like Rob ....
> Consider: projects A and B have identical goals. In project A, you
> have free
> rein in your choice of software and hardware tools. However, the
> manager sets
> arbitrary deadlines, likes to stand behind people and criticize their
> code as
> they type,
;c) (kidding)
> On project B, the choice of langauge and hardware are made for you and
Wait. That *also* sounds like Rob ...
> there's
> only one computer per two programmers. On the other hand, the manager
> sees his
> people as people, negotiates requirements and schedules on a realistic
> basis,
> trusts his people, follows a set of best practices (be it XP or some
> other) and
> chases everyone out of the office at 5:30.
(not kidding!)


text:
Click on a label to read posts from that part of the world.
Top American Destinations To Avoid In 2013
Here's the thing, though: I'm a pretty open-minded traveler. I've had plenty of unpleasant run-ins, transportation failures and otherwise terrible experiences – it comes with the territory. But I'm also not one to throw an entire city into the negative category. Instead, I took the most complained about places and looked into why they have a stigma, and conversely, wrote about what might make the social media users change their minds. Maybe the bad taste in these travelers' mouths will never go away, but hopefully this will end up changing some perceptions.
Complaint: "just plain depressing"
The Point: Once one of America's most prosperous cities, today Detroit seems more like a post-industrial ruin. Corrupt city officials, economic decline and budget mismanagement have caused law and order to break down in the city. In October, the Detroit Police Officers union went so far as to warn visitors to enter the city "at their own risk," and ALT (Alternative Luxury Travel) travel agency called Detroit the "Most Dangerous U.S. City to Visit for Gay Travelers" because of its increase in crime and the shuttering of a high number of landmark gay bars.
The Counterpoint: If you're looking for trouble in Detroit, you can easily find it – but that doesn't mean it will find you. The city still has a thriving music, art and theater scene, drawing creatives from around the country and world to live and visit here. And if you like cars, you can visit museums dedicated to both Ford and Chrysler, take a tour of the former estates of auto barons, or check out one of the many automobile-related annual events. There is still a lot of hope for this city, and earlier this year Gadling even wrote about it as a sustainable city to watch.
Reno, Nevada
Complaint: "ZERO attempt at a culture"
The Point: Reno makes the list of cities to avoid because, as one Twitter user put it, "it felt like where old gamblers go to die." It bills itself as the second largest tourist town in Nevada, and can't seem to shake the runner-up epithet of a tame, rundown version of Las Vegas. Most people sell the city by pointing out how close it is to Tahoe, which isn't really a reason to stay in Reno at all.
The Counterpoint: If you don't like casinos – Reno's number one tourist attraction – it might seem you are in trouble. The truth is, this city has the same good eats, music, nightlife and boutiques you find in any other major metropolitan areas – you just have to search a little harder to find the gems. The Nevada Museum of Art also has a surprisingly prestigious collection and is well worth a visit (even if it's just to kill some time during your layover to another destination). Yes, the pace of life is slower here than other major metropolitan areas, but many visitors might find that a redeeming quality instead of a negative one.
Daytona Beach, Florida
Complaint: "dodging trucks that were allowed to drive on the beach"
The Point: When you imagine a day along the shore, you probably don't conjure images of laying your beach towel next to cars and trucks. On parts of Daytona Beach, automobiles are allowed to park in the sand during select hours of the day, making the beach vibe turn from tropical to tailgating party.
The Counterpoint: Here's the thing: Daytona Beach is the home of NASCAR, so if you're visiting for a racing event, you probably don't mind a few cars on the beach. In fact, you might even enjoy the novelty of it. If you're not into it, that's OK too: there are plenty of other stretches of sand in for you to discover.
Salt Lake City, Utah
Complaint: "boring and flat"
The Point: Salt Lake City doesn't top many travel bucket lists, mostly because the local culture isn't too supportive of those who like to imbibe. Just a few years ago, the capital of Utah lifted a prohibition that limited the number of bars on each city block to two, but the city can't seem to escape the conservative stigma.
The Counterpoint: Fostered in part by the Sundance Film Festival, Salt Lake City has a growing film and art scene. Summer visitors can watch live bands outdoors during the annual Twilight Concert Series, and those who come in winter should know that the city is known for its close proximity to the slopes – 14 ski resorts are within an hour of Salt Lake City. Year round, the city has many small businesses worth seeking out, which makes it a great destination for those looking to skip chain restaurants and big box stores. And if your complaint is that the city is flat, take a trip to the nearby Bonneville Salt Flats, and you might be surprised to find out how beautiful a flat landscape can be.
Los Angeles, California
Complaint: "smoggy and snooty"
The Point: Los Angeles is notorious for its smog, a haze produced by millions of vehicles operating in a low basin surrounded by mountains. It's also an expensive place to visit, and the people who live there have a reputation as struggling actors, models and rock stars who will do anything to get ahead.
The Counterpoint: Multiple California government agencies have been working to reduce smog. It's still a major problem, but it's not a reason to avoid the city's numerous landmarks and other attractions. Besides, the nearly 4 million people who live there don't seem to be too turned off by it. And that sheer number of people discredits the "snooty" point. Choose your company wisely and you can avoid self-important people with stars in their eyes – or at least learn to roll your own eyes and walk away.
Do you echo these social media users' sentiments, or can you get behind one of the cities above? Similarly, if you had a bad experience in a U.S. city and think it should be on the list, let Gadling readers know in the comments below.
Editor's note: In an earlier version of this article, the population of Los Angeles was incorrectly identified. The article has been updated to accurately reflect the current population of the city.
[Photo credit: Flickr user Ben Amstutz]
Filed under: Arts and Culture, History, Learning, Skiing, Surfing, Festivals and Events, Food and Drink, North America, United States
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Reader Comments (Page 8 of 11)
Patrick Rafferty Jan 8th 2013 9:09PM
I moved from a small town in West Texas to LA 3 years ago and have NEVER experienced any snooty people. In fact, most of the people I've met have been very good at making me feel welcomed.
And as far as the alleged smog, I have zero complaints. It's no worse than any other big city.
Jay Jan 8th 2013 10:19PM
Soooo, Libby, You must be a fat girl huh? I've lived in the daytona bch. area all my life, met tourists from all over the world, walked between millions of cars & trucks getting to & from the water, But I don't ever recall having to dodge anything , pedestrians have the right of way(thats law) And having your car or truck within sprinting distance,is a true asset, with your valuables safely locked up. no carrying stuff hundreds of yards, & leave the car where you can't see it. No contest lady Much more relaxed than that. You should visit again, I think maybe you missed something . Oh-- And-- Libby? Tommorow--at my house, the sun will be shining,the breeze will be blowing the temps will be in the low 80s, the waves will be breaking off the getties,the gulls will be hovering over,the wine will be chilled,the beer will be ice cold,and the beach at daytona will be alive.
cindy Jan 9th 2013 2:36AM
I tend to agree about all of these. Carson City is similar to Reno and not a good place to be if you're down and out, especially down. I think Utah is well worth seeing but then alcohol is not a big priority with me when i'm visiting a place. I can't imagine putting that so far first that you wouldn't appreciate all there is to see. That's awful about Daytona beach and I probably wouldn't enjoy a swim there.
jak Jan 8th 2013 9:41PM
I totally agree with everything you said about each of the Forget 'Em cities...wastelands, bottom of the American cultural barrel...if they aren't poverty stricken and hopeless to rise, they're superficially materialistic ugly miles of strip malls, the inmates driven solely by the car they drive, the label they wear, or the Kardashian they worship. Pathetic examples of America 2013.
Handsomish Jan 8th 2013 9:47PM
It's not Angeleno's that are watching the Kardasians. Don't blame us for them, and the other Honey Boo Boo's of the world.
Handsomish Jan 8th 2013 9:42PM
Having lived in Los Angeles most of the last 30 years, I've experienced it's highs and lows. The smog claims are so distorted. Basically memories of the 70's. I've encountered worse air all over the country at times. Sure there are phonies here, as there are everywhere, but unfortunately, we seem to attract those that once resided next door to wherever you live. But there are a lot of genuine people here, and probably the most diverse population in the nation. There are many cultural opportunities available here, from cuisine to art. We have some wonderful museums, and our outdoor experiences are varied, and close. You can snow ski in the morning, and surf at night. As well as excellent mountain biking/hiking available within 15 minutes from any point in the city/county. Other than the Santa Monica Mountains, we lack a National Park System presence.
As to Salt Lake City, I don't believe we should have to include the number of establishments that you can imbibe alcohol, to make it a fun city. There isn't enough alcohol in the state of Utah to make SLC fun. All I ever get there is treated like an outsider. Maybe I don't have that secret Mormon appearence that earns me a friendly greeting. I've tried multiple times, and have only had miserable experiences there. If you want to visit the great National Parks, and other sites in Utah, I highly recommend going up to Ogden. That is an extremely friendly city, with great food, and a short distance to SLC if you really feel you need to visit. And going out to Bonneville Salt Flats is a must.
Reno isn't very exciting anymore. As you drive around you see many once notable casinos boarded up. It's close to becoming a ghost town. The notable exceptions are some good basque food, and the Harrahs Automotive Museum.
Detroit shouldn't be at the top of anyones list, but I have had good times there, and there are certainly many good museums, and points of historical interest.
If I were to pick a city to avoid in Florida, it's pretty much a pick-em. Unless you have a large wallet and kids, avoid Orlando. And again the large wallet is pretty much necessary for Miami as well. Culturally Daytona Beach only has Nascar, and the beach. But is a reasonable cost vacation to the seaside at times, but not much else. Especially for good food. It's all chains, and bland local food. At least you can get some good Cuban food in Miami.
Jennifer Pierce Jan 8th 2013 9:52PM
I was born and raised in Detroit and I definitely feel the pain of what has happened to my hometown. I do however get back every year and I can tell you that Downtown Detroit is alive and kickin'.
Greektown is amazing and I was shocked and amazed at how crowded the streets were; and forget about the food; it's amazing. Then there's always a little gambling at any one of 3 casinos that are bustling at all hours. If that's not good enough, you can always go across the bridge to Windsor and go to Ceasars. And I totally forgot about Hamtamck which is the latest trendy hotspot. Oh, and don't forget all the great places along Lake St. Clair.
Detroit is not dead; it's been on life support but it is making a miraculous recovery because the people of Detroit will not give up on it. You can't keep a city like Detroit down forever.
Greta Jan 8th 2013 9:59PM
Salt Lake City is a great place to visit. Stay downtown at the Grand America. Do some shopping at the Gateway or the other super cool new outdoor mall. Eat at Lamb's Grille. I go once a year and love it. I always have fun and the people are pleasant.
Jim Jan 8th 2013 10:15PM
Why avoid Los Angeles? It is one of the best cities in the US to visit. Absolutely fantastic weather, with an unlimited number of things to see and do.
Smoggy and snooty? Expensive to visit? Has the writer ever been to NYC?
Smoggy, snooty, arrogance beyond imagination, filthy, congested and VERY expensive to stay anywhere decent.
Seven Stillmore Jan 8th 2013 11:35PM
these lists are always generated in NYC, and always include LA. Its called jealousy. ILOVELA.
Seven Stillmore Jan 8th 2013 10:44PM
LA will make the top 5 list of anything, always. Its the place everyone loves to hate. As a fifth generation Angelino, I can always tell when someone is hating on my town, and never been here, or we gobbled you up and spit you out. Right Naomi? This is where the pebble hits the pond. How on earth do you have a list that includes, SLC, Reno, Detroit, and Daytona Beach? You could fit every one of those towns in the Valley without touching Burbank.
JamesBryson Culp Jan 8th 2013 11:44PM
Chicago was a good place in the 1940s and until about 1956. Since then, not so good. Winds still blow the same tho. Cold windy city. Some graces are the museums. Trajedy was destroying the Meigs Airfield, where my father flew in and landed the General's plane a twin Beech to come see me born at Chicago Cook County Lying In Hospital of Univ of Chicago during WWII 1943. .
sheenaschmidt Jan 9th 2013 12:02AM
Daytona Beach just got back from their lived their for nine years ,it has everything from new board walk, race car driving, bike week, gambling,largest flea market, grey hound dog track, deep sea fishing, great food, my problem was to many things to do, and which ones to do first,hotels range in price, a family can live on the beach in a nice suit for 500 dollars a week,and as for the cars on the beach they have lines where they must drive and park, they make it sound like they are driving over you, report is so wrong
Marbux Jan 9th 2013 1:11AM
I'm from So California. I grew up, did my schoolin' there and worked if the medical field until I moved in '97. I've only been back twice, the latest time was a year ago.
Downside: The traffic is horrendous (gasoline was expensive) as is the smog and it's crowded. It's also expensive (tickets to the Queen Mary and the Long Beach Aquarium were outrageously high so, we skipped them) and many of the people are rude. Even DIsneyland seemed to be less "happy".
The smog is often so bad you can't see the mountains that make it a basin nor see Santa Catalina Island that is only 26 miles from shore. It no longer seemed like home and I doubt very much I will return anytime soon.
Upside: Many good places to eat (I do miss the food). There are a lot of things to do, if you have the money. You can go to the ocean, the mountains and the desert all in one day. The beaches, at least Newport Beach was clean. We even saw seals off of the pier. That was cool.
If you go...plan, plan, plan. Consider driving time, expenses and crowds.
Donna Jan 9th 2013 1:06AM
I disagree about LA being snooty. Maybe I just didn't go to the snooty areas but I found people to be quite friendly, surprisingly so. Near the beaches people spoke to me as I walked down the streets as though they had known me for years. Everywhere I remember going people were very friendly. I even went out to a club one night and a young man in a wheel chair asked me to dance after eyeing me on the dance floor. Now if he felt comfortable enough to ask me to dance and he was from LA, I feel he was example of the good naturedness of most people who reside there.
Angelophile Jan 9th 2013 1:01AM
Libby,on behalf of Los Angeles,we would love it if you never came back.
You had a bad time here because you had to come with you. Bummer.
Donna Jan 9th 2013 1:19AM
I agree, you get what you give. If you have a bad attitude to start with, people will feel your spirit and be turned off to you too. I always smile at strangers to let them know without a word spoken that I appreciate just being there and having the opportunity to enjoy their city or their home. It's just like being a guest in some ones home.
Joe Jan 9th 2013 1:33AM
Detroit? Really? That city has no one to blame but themselves. You let a bunch of unions suck the life out of your once great city. They wouldn't give up their entitlements and thus killed the goose that laid the golden egg. It's a microcosm of the United States.
Jerome Jan 9th 2013 1:35AM
The city of Los Angeles does not have 25 million people. The netire state has 37 million. in 2000, it was less than 4 million, I am not sure whay it is now, but the CITY of LA, is not even close.