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tl;dr - Jump down to the end
OK, I watched a bunch of lectures by Daniel Dennett today and I'm kind of steamed up. Dennett has some of the most astounding insights on the nature of human society, religion and so on but he also has this amazing blind-spot toward his employer, the State.
In one lecture I watched, Dennett speculates on ideas for how atheists might go about replacing religion - or at least the objectionable parts of religion while keeping the good parts - with a credible alternative. At the conclusion of the talk, he holds up the TED conferences as an example of an organization with amazing success in simply spreading truth. My view of the LvMI is every bit as high.
But there's something missing in the LvMI. Its primary focus is academic - which is great as far as it goes. But it doesn't go far enough. What I believe is needed is an organization that reaches out to the masses in a direct form, in the way that churches do by providing regular instruction and community interaction.
In another talk, Dennett discusses folk tunes and words as "undomesticated memes" - they serve no particular purpose except their own existence and they are indifferent to the ends of individual humans. These are different from memes such as religious beliefs which can induce the bearer of the meme to sacrifice his own ends and serve other purposes, much in the same way that a parasitic virus can drive its host to suicidal actions that serve the reproductive purposes of the virus but are detrimental to the survival of the host.
Curiously, Dennett never mentions the parasite par excellence - the State. Unlike the State, churches do not tax you, and those that do always do so with the assistance and cooperation of the State, essentially making them just another organ of the State. Taxation is obviously parasitic and clearly distinguishable from other forms of transactions in which all parties to the transaction willingly agree to enter into it. (We can nitpick over the gray areas of private monopoly privilege and the extent to which that removes the de facto voluntariness but the core issue of what is really voluntary versus involuntary remains crystal clear).
But these are all purely analytical considerations. Part of my interest has to do not only with how we know what is good for us but how we feel it, as well. One of the roles of religion is to act as what Dennett terms a "moral team" - it's a group of people who "believe in" a set of values. In this way, one's value are not only analytically assented to but they are also viscerally felt.
Most people are not moral philosophers, so they do not spend a lot of time reflecting on what constitutes good versus evil. That is, they are not specialists in morality. The decision to belong to any given moral team is largely based on other factors - prior membership of one's family or friends, good PR, reputable and famous teachers, good slogans, and so on. These are the "packaging" on the product. What's inside isn't always what was advertised but the point is that people do not choose their "moral team" on the basis of weighing the product itself so much as the packaging.
Also, I think that we can tend to underestimate the extent to which "gut feeling" is the real determining factor in our choices. Even if you carefully study a menu at a restaurant on one visit, that is no guarantee that you will study it as carefully every time, or that you studied all the menuse of all the available restaurants in the area before making a purchasing decision, and so on. We're always acting on incomplete information and the "gut instinct" plays a role in providing heuristics in that information vacuum that keep us from making really bad mistakes almost all of the time.
The only correct basis for methodical decision-making is individual self-satisfaction. But what satisfies us is not solely or even mostly a function of internal factors within the self. The state of satisfaction itself is completely subjective but the conditions which bring about satisfaction are not solely or even mostly internal. The conditions of satisfaction may be amenable to conscious influence to a degree but the majority of the conditions for satisfaction lie outside of the self. In fact, they reside mostly within the social order itself.
How we expect people to respond to our own actions (versus how they actually do respond) is the single largest component in determining our state of satisfaction. This can be seen to be true by following the preconditions required to eat your breakfast. At every step of the way, you must interact with someone and you must please them well enough that they will render a service to you in exchange - such as the sale of groceries or the writing of a paycheck.
But feeling what is the correct path to attaining one's satisfaction is even more difficult than analyzing it. If you spend enough time analyzing the problem, you will probably come out with pretty decent answers. The only trouble is that the majority of your life will be consumed with such analysis, which is a very high cost to avoid mistakes that could probably be avoided much more cheaply.
One of the primary ways that humans learn is by emulation of their peers. Churches definitely provide this sort of instructional environment. You don't have to study the Bible to get the gist of what kinds of actions are desirable or undesirable for the Christian believer. Even if you were from a culture where there was nothing like organized religion, all you need to do is watch and learn, listen and imitate and you will be up to speed in very short order.
The only problem is that most churches inculcate really bad values - that is to say they inculcate statist value systems. In particular, they teach moral systems that are parasitic memes, moral systems that teach you that your satisfaction is the worst possible basis on which to make decisions - the exact opposite of reality.
Dennett never explicitly identifies the State as a culprit in memetic engineering and I remain perpetually mystified as to why Dennett/Dawkins/etc. lay the blame for wars on religion when it is obvious that the generals and Presidents are the immediate organizers of war.
Another role that these "moral teams" perform is filtration of the wider culture. The vast majority of cultural memes are at best deadweight - they may not be detrimental to you but they are not enhancing to your well-being, either. Organizations like the LvMI help perform this filtration at a scholarly level but we also need filtration of the popular culture and this function is best performed by the laity itself - movies, music, etc. recommendations or un-recommendations.
This is a point that I think a lot of secularists get completely wrong. In their campaign against State censorship, they forget that the vast majority of the media that is produced is deadweight and much of it is toxic and harmful. Ecumenism as a matter of policy is fine but not as a matter of social order. We need a "membrane" that pulls in nutrients and pushes the waste out.
(tl;dr) This brings me to the First Church of Mises. Obviously, the title is facetious but I think a case can be made for an organization which retains some of the attributes of religion - regular moral instruction, singing and community events - and dispenses sound moral instruction. What is sound moral instruction? Basically, the working out of the consequences of Epicurean/Misesean ideas on the only correct basis of decision-making: one's own satisfaction.
This meme - that one's own satisfaction is the only correct basis for decision-making - is to the mainstream moral dogmas of self-sacrifice, obedience and subjugation as the body's T-cells are to a viral infection. That is, it acts as an immune response that confronts and destroys the parasitic memes that drive suicidal (what I term 'self-treacherous') actions within their hosts, such as the enthusiastic payment of taxes or zealous obedience to commands from self-appointed authorities.
But academic instruction or even popular media are not sufficient to really inculcate this meme into the public at large. What is needed are flesh-and-blood organizations - communities - that meet face-to-face and reinforce these values through ordinary social mechanisms so that they are felt as well as realized intellectually.
Clayton -
I actually read this whole post.
Are you a religious person Clayton?
@bloomj: Not any more. I was raised devoutly religious, however.
Clayton, are you familiar with Robert Nisbet? He argued that much of the influence of the state arose from the rise of individualism which broke apart the communities of former times and ultimately resulted in their replacement by statism rather than actual individualism. It seems that you are arguing with him that in order to eliminate the destructive, false community of the state, it is firstly necessary to create healthy communities based on evolving knowledge and customs conducive to well-being. This is also very close to the thought, for example, of Anthony de Jasay. The question is, how is such a community developed?
I've heard of Nisbet and I began reading de Jasay's The State but had to put it down due to time constraints (work, side projects, family life).
I absolutely believe that individualism can be of a virulent, anti-family/anti-community type that breaks down the social fabric and renders the individuals - deprived of the natural safety net of family and genuine friends - vulnerable to systematic predation by the State.
As for the question of how, I think there are two routes, analogous to those being pursued in politics by LvMI on the one hand, and Ron Paul on the other.
The first (high) route would be to found an institute whose stated purpose and goal is to seed such community organizations from scratch. This institute could do facilitative things like creating online Meetup groups, publishing information on how to rent facilities and file for 501(c)3 status (although this potentially has speech-muzzling implications), "ordaining" speakers/activists (reputation network), and so on.
The second route would be to found a "theological LvMI" and simply "infiltrate" existing religious organizations, particularly those that are already liberalized to some extent (e.g. some Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.) As long as this "infiltration" is not covert - ala the Jesuits - it is not insidious. I think the Reconstructionists have pursued this strategy to an extent; I don't know about their level of success but I find their ends to be dubious anyway (sorry Gary North, Rushdoony, et. al.) as they are not so much anti-state as anti-this-state, which is not very remarkable. Probably the closest thing to this kind of anti-statism through a theological/religious-people's movement was that led by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. I think his death is a testament to just how effective this strategy could be in the right hands.
As for religiosity itself, I am not atheist. I don't think that atheism is a prerequisite to anti-statism; many of the anti-statists I talk to seem to feel this way. Neither do you need to be anti-religion. In fact, I find anti-religionism puzzling since religion that isn't monopolized by the State is voluntary, even if quirky. You don't even have to be anti-Christian except that a lot of Christian dogma is anti-historical, which is difficult to reconcile with a creed of honest truth-seeking - but there is a long and somewhat suppressed (in Germany, Austria's neighbor) traditional scholarship called the Higher Criticism that was reforming Christian dogma through the application of scholarly historicism. The interpretation of the Higher Criticism as atheistic is mistaken. The founder of the Tubingen School was himself a theologian. Maybe that's just what we need - a Baur Institute... :-P And note that - just like the Austrian School of economics - the Higher Criticism is not dead, it's just been marginalized for a very long time.
In fact, I find anti-religionism puzzling since religion that isn't monopolized by the State is voluntary, even if quirky.
I'm more specifically anti-judaism-islam-christianity, which are harmfully stupid. Voluntary stupidity is not redeeming. "Quirky" is something like drinking juice with several straws.
After watching these Dennett videos you posted, I have to say I'm thoroughly confused. He missed the most important aspect of my relationship with God and that is the awareness and fear of my own mortality. Such a crucial aspect of so many religions in general and my experience of God in particular, I'm amazed he never talked about it once.
Accustom yourself to believing that death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply the capacity for sensation, and death is the privation of all sentience; therefore a correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not by adding to life a limitless time, but by taking away the yearning after immortality. For life has no terrors for him who has thoroughly understood that there are no terrors for him in ceasing to live. Foolish, therefore, is the man who says that he fears death, not because it will pain when it comes, but because it pains in the prospect. Whatever causes no annoyance when it is present, causes only a groundless pain in the expectation. Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not. It is nothing, then, either to the living or to the dead, for with the living it is not and the dead exist no longer.
But in the world, at one time men shun death as the greatest of all evils, and at another time choose it as a respite from the evils in life. The wise man does not deprecate life nor does he fear the cessation of life. The thought of life is no offense to him, nor is the cessation of life regarded as an evil. And even as men choose of food not merely and simply the larger portion, but the more pleasant, so the wise seek to enjoy the time which is most pleasant and not merely that which is longest.
- Epicurus, Letter to Menoeceus ca. 300 BC
That really doesn't answer why he doesn't even talk about it.
He talks about other aspects of religion such as his analogy of the dog barking at the roof.
He missed the most important aspect of my relationship with God and that is the awareness and fear of my own mortality.
Just wait a few more decades for gene therapy.
What is needed are flesh-and-blood organizations - communities - that meet face-to-face and reinforce these values through ordinary social mechanisms so that they are felt as well as realized intellectually.
That is not a novel idea. The problem is getting outsiders into it. But, it does happen at events like LSS and Bureacrash. There are even *gasp* females at such events.
He talks about death a little here:
The foolish man built his house upon the Fed... the foolish man built his house upon the Fed.... the foolish man built his house upon the Fed, and the interest rate came tumbling down.
Oh, the interest came down and the inflation went up...
Most powerful aspect of religions is fertility and demography. You can see it on Mormons, Amish and others who have high fertility and retention rates, they just grow. We really need a Libertarian natalist-movement, that would secure the triumph of liberty.
The foolish man built his house upon the Fed... the foolish man built his house upon the Fed.... the foolish man built his house upon the Fed, and the interest rate came tumbling down. Oh, the interest came down and the inflation went up...
Oh man, that really made me lol - apologies to any of you that didn't go to Sunday School and thus won't get the joke.
In one of those lectures, Dennett talks about the insipid quality of many of the Universal Unitarian hymns which use the old tunes and meters but replace the words with dull, wooden knock-offs.
Probably better would be to pay bands to come and perform but not to "put on a show" so much as to encourage people to sing along and dance. We've all but lost our folk tunes which is a very dangerous place to be in. While the vast majority of music is naturally apolitical, the power of political satire in folk music is astounding:
We really need a Libertarian natalist-movement, that would secure the triumph of liberty.
I've thought about that and I don't think it's true. I think that movements which have something to "push" (namely the duty to engage in proselytization) are not primarily concerned about honesty and truth-seeking. Hence, they actually experience a high attrition-rate as people join and then realize they're being sold a pile of steaming crap. The conscientious strategy of natalism of the Mormons and other religions is driven by the need to maintain a growing "core" of committed "believers." I don't think we need "believers" because we're not asking people to believe (take on faith) anything.
However (I love that word), I think we need to keep the "rugged individualism" of a lot of libertarians in check - it easily becomes erosive to family (and thus, community) order. I think a lot of people who are attracted to libertarianism are attracted precisely because they are more or less alone in the world or wish to be alone (have little to do with their family). Look at Molyneux's horde of adolescent admirers. He's not just teaching liberty, he's their group therapist. I think that's really, really unhealthy. Instead of logging onto YouTube and feeling like someone like Molyneux - who's never even heard or read their name - cares about them and understands their problems, they should be meeting people, building social networks, etc.
(Slightly O/T): I also have developed a philosophical issue with liberty as an end. With liberty, it is possible to say things like "Live Free or Die", a motto which Dennett rightly mocks as just another idea to die for, alongside patriotism or social justice or whatever. This is possible because liberty is something outside of and greater than yourself. It doesn't just mean liberty for yourself, it means liberty for "all people" or all the people in your country, or whatever. But this is precisely the problem: self-sacrificial (what I call self-treacherous) ideas that latch onto their host and drive them into giving up their own satisfaction for that of another. At all points, the only correct basis for methodical decision-making is one's own satisfaction.
What I think is needed instead is satisfactionism. I would say hedonism but that already has another connotation. Perhaps we could reach back into ancient history and call it ataraxism after Epicurus's ataraxia.
The triumph of a "religion of atarxism" is, I think, secured much more easily than the triumph of other kinds of religion (especially the religion of statism). Unlike the parasitic memes of other religions, ataraxism is not fighting gravity. You are born an ataraxist. A lot of what you learn as a child is how and why to abridge your uncompromising commitment to your own satisfaction. A great deal of this learning is absolutely necessary in that it is a higher form of ataraxism.
Consider basic etiquette - please, thank-you, table manners and so on - for example. As a child, these etiquette behaviors are onerous and abridge your natural instinct to self-satisfaction. But, as an adult, you will be glad that you learned them as a child. They are like grease that smooths your movement through the social order in a mostly painless and conflict-free manner. Without it, you would be ground to powder by the constant push-back of your peers offended by your uncouth behavior.
Self-sacrificial religious ideas, especially statism, "free ride" on this already existing mechanism for teaching children to abridge their natural instincts (for greater satisfaction later in life) but, unlike the natural ideas inculcated in youth, they are fundamentally opposed to the well-being of their host. One of the key steps to freeing people of the hold that statism and anti-ataraxic memes have on them is to identify the difference between self-sacrifice for the purpose of attaining greater satisfaction in the long-run, versus self-sacrifice on the behalf of an external beneficiary (parasite).
In fact, the key defense mechanism of all the great anti-ataraxic memes is to scramble the ability of people to think clearly about this very point. We invariably confuse voluntary action on the behalf of another (which is necessarily motivated by self-satisfaction) with the abnegation of self-satisfaction itself (breakdown of purposeful action that renders the individual vulnerable to external parasitism). How can people possibly confuse tax-funded welfare with charity?? The two are in no way related! Yet, the level of confusion surrounding such a basic point is staggering. So, Job #1 of anyone who thinks that anti-ataraxic memes need to go is to directly attack their defense mechanisms.
Returning to the point of natalism, I think that what is needed is instruction in what I'm calling ataraxism, especially for people who are parenting. Any adult is going to have to go through a process of "reversing" the programmed patterns of thought that anti-ataraxic memes have inculcated but we also need parents who know the difference between necessary self-sacrifice for long-run self-satisfaction versus abnegation of one's own satisfaction. We need parents to work to filter the things they teach their children to those which are consistent with their child's long-run ataraxia and shielding them from those which are not. So, there is definitely a role for the development of ideas directly targeted to helping parents educate their children in a healthy manner. I don't think this is a "make or break" issue, though. It's just one more thing that is needed.
I've only read through half the OP. I'll have to finish it when I have time. That said, I LOVE where you are going with this (I say this as a non-religious atheist).
Sorry Clayton for my short answer, I will mostly comment your first paragraph. Writing in English is not my best skills.
It doesn't have to be as strong movement as Mormons or other religious groups. Libertarians generally don't understand how important factor demography is in defining future of societies, and some little "movement" might open their eyes. It seems to me that many libertarians just want to live "free" without family etc. and if they do something, it's promotin liberty by participating L-party-activities or making Ron Paul signs after workday. This works to some extend, but it's not fully efficient. I think it's have been debated quite a lot about changing public opinion - yes, even though it's needed, it's pretty hard and time consuming. I think that having a family is another good strategy. Political opinions tend to be inherited, so you don't have to brainwash your children or to do anything like that. Kids love to imitate their parents, so if you use your leisure to campaing for Ron Paul, read Mises etc. after few years you have your own little army of Misesians following you.
I'm not saying that we must go all-in, I just say that natalism is underrated.
I think Dennett is wrong on the meaning of 'Live Free or Die', as much as I like him (I studied evolutionary theory long before economics and have a familiarity with his work on this topic). It does not refer to one laying down his life for a greater cause, as in Patrick Henry's 'give me liberty or give me death'. What it means is that living in a general state of slavery could be so unpleasant that one would favour death than to continue the pain of such an existence. Thus, live free or suffer. See the USSR for some examples of this...
On the issue of modern precepts towards the attainment of eudaimonia and ataraxia (which in Epicureanism are the same end), I think that Harry Browne's How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World is the most important work on this topic and deserves to be much better known than it currently is. This could be the germ of the Free Community. Link - http://www.bazkhani.com/wp-content/uploads/freedom_in_an_unfree_world.pdf
As a classicist, I was an Epicurean long before I became interested in economics. It's interesting how things all fit together.
I agree - I have noticed that some frequenters of this and other boards still haven't shaken the need to belong to a "greater purpose" and I think they ascribe to a kind of collectivist-libertarianism.... either we're all free or we need to be prepared to die. Libertarianism as a "cause greater than oneself" is a mistaken view. Liberty, too, is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is simply the freedom of the will so that it can act to bring about its chosen ends. I think we can state it this way: wherever there is individual satisfaction, there must liberty (else people could not have acted to attain their satisfaction). But it always remains satisfaction/happiness/ataraxia/whatever-you-want-to-call-it which is the final end, the end which is never a means to any other end, the end-in-itself.
I've read the first couple chapters and skimmed the rest of that book. I love the idea of the book but I do have gripes with its execution: he gets a tad preachy in places, he can be a bit myopic on his conceptions of what constitutes the ideal lifestyle, and the latter sections of the book come across as advice-you-didn't-ask-for.
But we definitely need a science of right-living that doesn't just sketch out broad principles but attempts to provide some kind of specific moral advice that is persuasive on the basis of its methodology and humility. But I think we don't even have a credible methodology yet - as David Friedman says:
A … reason to use practical rather than ethical arguments is that I know a great deal more about what works than about what is just… I think more is known about the consequences of institutions than about what is or is not just–that economics is a much better developed science than moral philosophy. (MoF)
I think that the Renaissance was onto something big - I think that the methodology of moral science has to center around an obsession with man himself, and its communication must be immersive (humanities, culture itself). I am of the opinion that a healthy love even of the human form, for example, must characterize true moral science.
Physical science is characterized by a love of the physical world, love of the Earth and all life within it. This is fine as far as it goes but I believe its dominance has given us a religion of the Earth (environmentalism) that has become twisted around into misanthropy. I believe there is a causal connection.
Without a deep-rooted love of humanity, would-be moral scientists are not equipped with the necessary character and virtues required to actually do it. It's like being a scientist who is more interested in science-fiction worlds than the real world... not a very motivating basis for investigation of the natural world with integrity and a commitment to honesty and truth. Just like Dennett sees himself as a slayer of bad reasoning, dishonesty and factual errors motivated by his love of physical science, so the moral scientist has to be someone who is a slayer of misanthropy, motivated by his love of man.
It was the other way around for me. What is astounding to me is how absolutely ancient these ideas are and yet how little they have managed to spread despite their manifest truth. This is part of why I'm interested in the memetics thing and Dennett's ideas on it because I think there must have been an "unconscious selection" within the meme population that has been going on for a very long time against the ideas of Epicurus and related ideas. Maybe all that is needed is a little bit of "memetic engineering" to package the ideas of Epicurus, Mises, et. al. into a form that is more vigorously self-propagating and resistant to being supplanted by other memes.
I'm an engineer for one of the largest tech corporations in the world. One of the things I learned very quickly is that it's not enough to be right. If you're right and you want to change people's minds, you have to think about who is going to try to stop you from changing their minds, how they're going to try to stop you, why they're going to try to stop you and what you have to do to get around their impedance. Unfortunately, it is really easy to fall into an end-justifies-the-means mentality once you start thinking this way. This goes back to the character issue. We need people with the character to both think about how to defeat bad ideas and at the same time not fall into the abyss of postmodern "lie, cheat, steal, whatever-it-takes to make your point and destroy the point of your opponents".
</interminable rambling>
In the world of ideas it doesn't even seem necessary to be right. It seems like it's more important to sell the idea well; to connect with the audience.
The real challenge for the Church of Mises is finding a way to take a set of ideas that might sound truly awful to some people and yet find a way to make them relatable. To focus on aesthetics as well as fundamentals.
On its face libertarianism can sound incredibly harsh and indifferent. That's why I like Walter Block. He's very rabbinical and his charm takes the edge off the ideas for me. The opposite is true of Tom Woods for me. I like his sense of humor but I hate his stupid fat face so I can't watch a video of the guy.
Dennett basically looks like Santa and he's easygoing and actually quite funny so I am able to watch these videos without too much trouble.
Are you familiar with any of Jasay's writings on justice and the presumption of liberty? I know I keep bringing Jasay up but I think he's one of the most important to read, especially since he comes at the problems - both political and economic - from a different angle than that, for example, of Mises and Rothbard. When I turned to his works I found in them many ideas that I had in a basic form, just articulated better by Jasay and with a more solid logical reasoning.
Clayton: I agree - I have noticed that some frequenters of this and other boards still haven't shaken the need to belong to a "greater purpose" and I think they ascribe to a kind of collectivist-libertarianism.... either we're all free or we need to be prepared to die. Libertarianism as a "cause greater than oneself" is a mistaken view. Liberty, too, is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It is simply the freedom of the will so that it can act to bring about its chosen ends. I think we can state it this way: wherever there is individual satisfaction, there must liberty (else people could not have acted to attain their satisfaction). But it always remains satisfaction/happiness/ataraxia/whatever-you-want-to-call-it which is the final end, the end which is never a means to any other end, the end-in-itself.
I kind of have a problem like this. I realize that liberty rightly understood is a means to an end of a happier life. I try to argue for it because it's opponents seem to me to be incorrect. I still have misgivings about the general end though, which is the free-market paradise.
What happens to you when you live in Libertopia? If it were to be achieved I don't really know what I would do with myself as it would seem like the historical struggle would be over, the struggle against the state that is. This probably stems from an unwarranted sense of self-importance or maybe self-destruction but what would life be without a good struggle? What would be the frontier? Wouldn't we just sink into materialistic complacent lifestyles?
The literature coming from Russia in the 19th Century is reflective of a fucked up society. Their thinking was born of a certain suffering. Hemingway's writing too was born of a certain suffering. Perhaps this doesn't have to do with the progressive eradication of struggle but something else. I don't know what I'm talking about.
bloomj: The opposite is true of Tom Woods for me. I like his sense of humor but I hate his stupid fat face so I can't watch a video of the guy.
The opposite is true of Tom Woods for me. I like his sense of humor but I hate his stupid fat face so I can't watch a video of the guy.
The Anarch is to the Anarchist what the Monarch is to the Monarchist. -Ernst Jünger
Jasay's writings on justice and the presumption of liberty?
I've only read parts of The State and I was thoroughly impressed. Any links are appreciated.
Justice and its Surroundings - http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=1306&Itemid=27
If you have JSTOR, his articles 'Freedom from a Mainly Logical Perspective' and 'Property and its Enemies' are available on it.
Some articles of his here (they are mainly about the European economy, but see 'Property and its Enemies' parts 1-3 and 'Your Dog Owns Your House'): http://www.econlib.org/library/Browse/articlearchivebyauthor_J.html
Political Philosophy, Clearly (2010) is a collection of essays dealing with justice, liberty, and their self-enforcement through custom. $14.50 on Amazon.
Chyd3nius: Most powerful aspect of religions is fertility and demography. You can see it on Mormons, Amish and others who have high fertility and retention rates, they just grow. We really need a Libertarian natalist-movement, that would secure the triumph of liberty. Seconded. There no better way to spread you memes (and genes!) that good old parenting. It should be an easy enough strategy in the decrepit, below-replacement-rates societies of the west. The Regression theorem is a memetic equivalent of the Theory of Evolution. To say that the former precludes the free emergence of fiat currencies makes no more sense that to hold that the latter precludes the natural emergence of multicellular organisms. | Post Points: 20
Seconded. There no better way to spread you memes (and genes!) that good old parenting. It should be an easy enough strategy in the decrepit, below-replacement-rates societies of the west.
There no better way to spread you memes (and genes!) that good old parenting.
I think that effect is undeniable but I also think the whole subject deserves more study. The State has an erosive effect on family solidarity and I'm not convinced that there isn't a link between this fact and the fact that the State exists at all. To put it bluntly, the State is the beneficiary of memes which induce people to forsake their families and sacrifice their well-being on behalf of genetic strangers instead (almost a kind of willing self-cuckoldry). Perhaps it is the greater efficiency of the State in propagating these memes than families are in propagating pro-family, pro-self/kin-interest memes that is responsible for this fact.
Clayton: [...] But academic instruction or even popular media are not sufficient to really inculcate this meme into the public at large. What is needed are flesh-and-blood organizations - communities - that meet face-to-face and reinforce these values through ordinary social mechanisms so that they are felt as well as realized intellectually. Clayton -
Home schooling would be a great avenue to introducing kids to the message. However, you can't give Human Action scholar's edition to 5 year-old; we need to produce pop-up books and short books with great art work. iPad apps would be great too; might as well gamify the learning experience.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
I'm having trouble finding a good scholarly discussion of memes online. Here's a pretty good article. He makes a crucially important observation that I don't hear from Dennett and other experts on memes:
or memes that describe methods or procedures for doing something, their practical effectiveness is apparently most important. When someone invents a new method for producing some chemical and publishes it, the meme becomes widespread if the method has benefits like producing better quality, being cheaper, etc. This is one of the key areas of that part of human behavior that can be called rational.
He mentions that there are other animals that have memes - birds with bird songs, for example (Dennett mentions beavers with their dams; not all of the knowledge of dam-building is innate). I can imagine a scenario where memes became common in our ancestors along-side the evolution of our ability to manipulate the world (there is a book to this effect, essentially claiming that the entirety of human culture is down to the particular evolved shape and capabilities of the hand).
Anyway, my point is that the fitness of memes is only locally determined by their "rehearsal fitness", that is, their amenability to being rehearsed in our own mind and repeated by word-of-mouth to others. From a global view, physical resources still matter. A dead person cannot propagate a meme. From the global view, the suitability of a meme to enabling its "infected" population is related to its effect on their material wealth. A poor person is closer to starvation than a rich person. Memes that make people poor make them closer to starvation. In order to survive and flourish, such a meme must be increasing its propagation through some means that is more effective than the word-of-mouth that has been lost as a result of the privation it has brought on its hosts.
For example, imagine a meme that says that self-sacrifice to build the Great Temple of the gods is rewarded by eternal life. In fact, it is rewarded by privation as the energy of the infected hosts that could have gone to sustaining themselves and their genetic offspring is instead devoted to the building of the Great Temple which does not give any perceptible material benefit to those making such sacrifice. As a result, people who host this meme are less wealthy and healthy, die younger, have fewer children and are thus less fit to propagate any meme by word-of-mouth, including this one.
But the temple and the priesthood themselves are a meme-representation. They propagate the very meme which is creating them and they do so very efficiently. One man may spread his faith in the Great Temple to a few of his friends and associates. But his ability to transmit a meme is very localized. A massive temple and impressive priesthood, on the other hand, can propagate the very same meme to thousands, even millions of people. It is so much more effective at transmitting the meme that the reduced meme-transmitting potential of its hosts - brought on by the privation that it inflicts on them - is more than made up, thus ensuring the meme's survival.
And I think this is the key issue - memes have transcended the genetic propagation mechanism that limits other viruses to messing with DNA. Memes can be vectored from art, songs, books, architecture, armies (just the assembly of a large group of people is itself a meme-representation), and so on. The difference between the efficiency of these meme-mega-representations versus the efficiency of simple word-of-mouth transmission by individual hosts is, I believe, partly responsible for the widespread existence of parasitic social structures.
But just like we can clearly identify parasites as a pathology of their hosts that natural immunity seeks to protect against, we can identify these parasitic memes as pathologies of the human condition. It's not "just how it is", it is really not good for us, both individually and as a species. The development of new ideas that grant immunity to these meme mega-vectors (Hollywood, architecture, social status, space programs, etc. etc.) have the potential to restore homeostasis both to individuals and to human society as a whole. Perhaps it would be a good investment of resources aimed at increasing human liberty for us to pitch in to building a giant, novel, attention-getting monument to the ideas of Ludwig von Mises. This could act as a memetic vector, attracting people to come see it and be infected with the ideas it represents. We need to build "meme-generating machines" that can produce memes as effectively as those of our opposition without enslaving people.
Along these lines, I once had a cool idea of building a gigantic monument in the desert - something to rival the Great Pyramid of Giza - but built entirely from sponsored bricks. Such a monument could be a testament to man and Nature, dedicated to preserving in stone the greatest ideas which human beings have ever devised, particularly the ideas of social science and economics which made the building of such a magnificent structure through completely voluntary means possible. If the GreatPyramid is a testament to the glories of Keynesian economics and central-planning (note that Egypt virtually collapsed after they were built), this would be like the "anti-Pyramid". Anyway, just another one of my crazy ideas.
I think Hayek, having been the first (to my knowledge) to bring the idea of memes to the field of libertarian analysis, deserves to be considered. Though I now see that, by Dawkins' standard Hayek's theory of cultural evolution would be classed as a 'group section' theory, hence incomplete at best. A revision of the Hayekian paradigm along the lines of the Evolutionary Stable Strategies would be of great help, I think.
To return to the main theme of the thread (by the way, great threat Clayton!), I'm must add two points:
1) We should be careful in classifying certain social structures as parasitic. Perhaps the state is parasitic by our standards, but I believe that it still is a far less parasitic structure in comparison with those that it supplanted.
2) I do not believe in the conversion power of church-like organizations, not for libertarian ends, at least. I think that churches step in when families fail to provide the child with any kind of cultural education. Having a kid who'd otherwise end up as thief or beggar in the streets receive some sort of culture by a large organization is a clear improvement. But this just will not compete against a normal education in the nuclear family.
So, if some church or school-like libertarian organization ever succeeds in attaining a church-like influence by church-like means, this by definition will mean that its adherents will be people of a scant cultural education, and bearing large emotional scars. Not the kind of people you'd like in a free society. Molineux's followers where mentioned here as an example. I may add the Objectivist circles. I, for one, would be scared to live in a society made up of these two groups.
So, I myself insist on the virtues of a nuclear family transmitting liberation memes, and of libertarian originations as 'mere' intellectual clubs where grown libertarians can communicate with each-other. That is a far cry for ma modern church or mass school.
I, for one, would be scared to live in a society made up of these two groups.
Hmm, I think that's a bit Luddite. I agree with you that one function of churches is to act as social scavengers or "cultural charities" that fill the cultural void where family has broken down. However, I think that there is a circular relationship between the spiritual* health of society and the spiritual health of the family (and the spiritual health of the individual). They have to be healed together because the health of each is dependent to one degree or another on the health of the others.
There are hundreds of millions (billions?) of families on the planet. Obviously, you cannot visit each one, explain to them why they would benefit from strong family cohesion and then expect the world to change. Some kind of force-multiplication or leverage must be used. This is properly the role of cultural leaders and I think we need to go back to a social structure where families are bound together by (ideally non-binding) social leadership which, in turn, is bound together by its own meta-leadership, and so on. This is how many clan/tribal cultures are organized - the Somalis, the Afghans, etc. Say what you want about their abject poverty, their social structures have proven to be all but nuclear-bomb-proof.
I think we are victims of the power of modern meme-representations (books, electronic transmission, recording, even architecture, etc.) to uniformitize. In the process, what is lost is that the leaders are simply leading too many people - they don't know their names and individual circumstances in enough detail to possibly be able to provide leadership that is in any way useful to those being lead. There is a knowledge vacuum at the top combined with a pretense of knowledge (h/t Hayek) being projected by the memetic regularization of society. It appears that our leaders know what they are doing. After all, we all listen to the same music, watch the same TV shows and ride the same yellow school buses yet the sky has not come crashing down. In fact, they haven't got a clue what they are doing because they can't possibly know the relevant information regarding the consequences of their leadership decisions and because those they lead are given little choice regarding who they are led by and (thus) how they are led. The slaveowner is not a social leader.
I do believe that religions/clan leaders/chiefs/medicine-men/etc. played this social leadership role in a healthy way, at least prior to the advent of the State and imperialistic religion. I'm speaking of "wild" religions, to borrow Dennett's terminology... religions that haven't yet been turned to use by the priestly class and the State. This is why I believe the way forward must lie through secession and political/cultural localization combined with the emergence of a credible global marketplace in law, language, commerce, and so on. Order (central-planning) in the small and chaos (marketplace, "invisible hand") in the large. This, I believe, is the only healthy future for human society and human flourishing. Social leaders who actually know a lot of the people they are leading by name would be a big improvement.
The critics of such a path will call it "feudalism" but I think that is mistaken. If a world of small, politically and culturally diverse communities is "feudalism" then the modern nation-state is simply mega-feudalism. What I want to see is a reversal in the trend of political aggregation into ever-larger political units and a revival of political disintegration until we reach social structures whose size lends some reason to believe that they may actually be good for the individual people who comprise them. I don't want to sharply disagree with you but there is nothing non-parasitic about Washington, DC.
*I use this term advisedly to refer to that part of human well-being that cannot be measured with a medical test
Clayton: This is why I believe the way forward must lie through secession and political/cultural localization combined with the emergence of a credible global marketplace in law, language, commerce, and so on. Order (central-planning) in the small and chaos (marketplace, "invisible hand") in the large. This, I believe, is the only healthy future for human society and human flourishing. Social leaders who actually know a lot of the people they are leading by name would be a big improvement.
This is why I believe the way forward must lie through secession and political/cultural localization combined with the emergence of a credible global marketplace in law, language, commerce, and so on. Order (central-planning) in the small and chaos (marketplace, "invisible hand") in the large. This, I believe, is the only healthy future for human society and human flourishing. Social leaders who actually know a lot of the people they are leading by name would be a big improvement.
Clayton: Hmm, I think that's a bit Luddite. I agree with you that one function of churches is to act as social scavengers or "cultural charities" that fill the cultural void where family has broken down. However, I think that there is a circular relationship between the spiritual* health of society and the spiritual health of the family (and the spiritual health of the individual). They have to be healed together because the health of each is dependent to one degree or another on the health of the others.
It probably is somewhat luddite. But my idea is that you discover libertarians, you do not make them. You can make libertarians of you kinds and of them alone, everyone else has had his 'political' paradigm firmly drilled into his head by the time you get to debate with them (Molineux got this right).
This is why I see no use for a libertarian institution as a conversion base. Just a place when people can go to discover they are libertarians, and help each-other in intellectual and/or practical stuff. I always saw the LvMI as just such an institution, which gave me back in the day the intellectual munitions to accept I was a libertarian. Truth be told, Molineux might be doing much of the same, although he's also doing some other things which are of no interest to us.
In time, we can only out-grow statist, you cannot convert them.
iPad apps would be great too; might as well gamify the learning experience.
Speaking of which, I've laid out design ideas for a few types of games. I don't have the coding knowledge at this time to finish something on my own. I need a CGI artist and hardware API coder. I'm also working on a TV series. We're aiming to starting shooting this summer.
You seriously crack me up.
However (I love that word), I think we need to keep the "rugged individualism" of a lot of libertarians in check - it easily becomes erosive to family (and thus, community) order. I think a lot of people who are attracted to libertarianism are attracted precisely because they are more or less alone in the world or wish to be alone (have little to do with their family).
You may have cause and effect mixed up a bit there. For progress to be made someone must stick his neck out against prevalent group think. We can't all be choir boys. If by "family" you mean the Christian system, no can do señor, that is anti-ataraxic for me.
Regarding the Dennett talk, he makes a mistake. There is a good reason that there are no churchy things in other types of organizations. Those things are cognitively associated with the negative emotions toward the bad aspects of traditional churches. If you used a symbol similar to the Swastika and a brown-black-red color scheme for your organization you would have problems. I've always used pipe organs heavily in my music because I think it's the best sounding natural instrument. I sent one of my early compositions to a girl. She said, "I hate it. It sounds like church music." Anyway, I already write churchy sounding philosophical songs. I wrote a libertarian rap years ago and I recently started doing lyrics for my new conventional music.
Merlin: Clayton: This is why I believe the way forward must lie through secession and political/cultural localization combined with the emergence of a credible global marketplace in law, language, commerce, and so on. Order (central-planning) in the small and chaos (marketplace, "invisible hand") in the large. This, I believe, is the only healthy future for human society and human flourishing. Social leaders who actually know a lot of the people they are leading by name would be a big improvement. Several-folded
Beyond Democracy, an excellent little book (I know, plug #6 or so here) also comes to the similar conclusion. I think the path to freedom and against parasitism could be distilled to a juxtaposition of political localization against political globalizaiton. After all is said and done, the size of the structure may be all that matters.
I agree on cultural localization and secession. Long-term plan would be regional clusterization, natalism within this group and producing/consuming libertarian influenced culture. This isn't against "meme-generator", both strategies can live in harmony and support each other. Free State Project combined with natalism would be one of the best things that could happen to liberty in our century. This is the main reason why I hate F4M, he makes very bad press for FSP...
Long-term plan
I have a mild allergy to the word "plan"... I think it's more of an issue of what social order is "realizable" and understanding what are the conditions under which such a social order can develop. What we are really trying to do is set off a chain-reaction or seed fertile ground. Society itself will take care of the rest.
I do not believe that our goal is to create a society of libertarians or even a majority of libertarians. Rather, we need to stop the ideological/memetic pre-conditions of the material plunder of the masses by the Elites. This plunder is made possible only by the complicity of the masses in their own despoilation (de Boetie). In order to reverse this, we must spread the - very natural and healthy and, most importantly, true - idea that one's own satisfaction is his highest end or purpose.
Most people have really unhealthy ideas about the moral status of frankly pursuing their self-interest, confusing this with selfishness, miserliness, anti-community and a host of other vicious attitudes. The memes responsible for this confusion use it as a shield or defense mechanism against dispassionate arguments that explain the fact that self-interest is the necessary precondition to any action. Self-ownership is self-interest. The only way to rid yourself of self-interest is to become the property of someone else, which is arguably not even possible.
As healthy ideas about the actual role of self-interest in decision-making spread, the power of the self-sacrifice/slavery memes automatically begins to be sapped. As people become less complicit in their own exploitation, there are fewer resources available to the central transmitters of the self-sacrifice/slavery memes. These memes become less efficient at self-replication, further reducing the resistance to the healthy ideas regarding the natural role of satisfaction in decision-making.
I'm not going to make any predictions because predictions are dangerous but I do believe we've actually witnessed a small taste of the potential for a collapse of the Establishment's memes with the 2012 Ron Paul campaign. The energy level has just increased and increased. It is conceivable that we could witness a kind of raging, ideological prairie fire sweep across the globe. It's happened before - what do you think the Protest Reformation was? It happened so fast - ideas that had been long-standing for centuries in Catholicized Europe began to collapse virtually overnight. The printing press clearly played a role in this collapse but how much more awesome is the power of the Internet in transmitting unauthorized ideas than the printing press.
The moment I post this to the Mises website, it becomes viewable from almost anywhere in the globe and can be accessed in a few hundred milliseconds. The ideas and information of the Ron Paul/End The Fed/Tenth Amendment/Etc. movements are already spreading like wildfire. But for all the successes that liberty has had in the last few years, my hope is that we are just seeing the first few embers of an ideological conflagration that exceeds our ability to imagine.
If historians allow us any say in the matter, I would like to call it Mises's Revenge.
I'm highly sceptical about an overnight change. Yes, Internet has changed rules like it did with printing press - libertarianism has exploded since 90's, especially Austrians who rose virtually from nothing. I agree that the amount of libertarians will rise more, but still I'm sceptical and see this as a more uncertain "plan". Natalist/segregationist "plan" is more secure and certain, but slower. I see it as a sort of backup. Maybe it's too slow for the technological development, who knows. But I'm not trying to put these "plans" against each other, they work best if they're combined. Think about if most of libertarians in US would move to the New Hampshire, to the specific towns - it would be indeed be Mises's Revenge.
I am skeptical of any movement that claims to be about liberty yet entails making any kind of "sacrifice". Moving to NH for anything other than economic and/or lifestyle reasons is a bad choice, in my opinion. For those who feel so strongly about the FSP that they choose to move, that's fine, it's their choice. But I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it.
As far as natalism goes, I think that FSP is small potatoes - it's a failure to really think at the correct scale. One of the social roles performed by churches (in my opinion, there's really no scholarly research to back this up AFAIK) is to act as "reproductive clubs" - it's much safer to marry your daughter off within the confines of a church congregation than to let her try to make her own way through the "singles scene." But the certification of suitors through the auspices of religion has never been a completely face-to-face system. People send out letters saying, basically, "I am a young man looking to marry and would like to visit your church to see if it is God's will that I marry one of the young women in your church." They still do this, by the way, a fact little known outside fundamentalist Christian churches. Often, they will ask their Pastor to either sign the letter or to write a generic referral letter to go along with it, certifying that they are upstanding members of the church and perhaps some special recommendation if they are especially well known to be virtuous and so on. I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions.
This goes right back to my OP. Rather than asking people to move to a specific geographical location for the purposes of constructing libertarian families, perhaps a better solution is to set up an institute that helps people begin building a socio-cultural network whose primary purposes mirror those of traditional reigions (without pretending to be a continuation of any particular traditional religion): moral instruction, community events, officiation of festivals and holidays and general reputation networks, especially with respect to business and marriage.
Here are some proposed tenets:
- Religious belief is a personal matter. Equivocation of different religious beliefs, however, is insulting and condescending. Hence, this organization is not secular but neither does it espouse any particular set of religious beliefs.
- I know a lot more about what is good for my neighborhood and my community than what is good for people who live thousands of miles away and may speak a different language. Hence, I should not impose my ideas about what makes a good neighborhood or community on those who live far away from me or who live in a significantly different culture from my own.
- Those who hold political power are human beings like anyone else and they, too, know a lot more about is good for their immediate neighborhood and community than about what is good for people who live thousands of miles away or are very different from them. I should not ask those who hold political power to impose their ideas or my ideas about what makes a good neighborhood or community onto those who are very different from us.
- Real leadership is based on recognition of excellence, not imposed authority. Hence, this organization does not seek to influence society through the political apparatus. Rather, as an organization that seeks to identify, develop and facilitate social leaders, the focus is on understanding what the essential attributes of leadership are and helping people to recognize those among them with the gift of leadership.
- Changes to the law often have unpredictable consequences or, even worse, predictably negative consequences. For this reason, I should be hesitant to advocate for drastic alterations of the law. There are many problems in every legal system in the world and these need to be identified in a careful, reasoned manner so that they can be changed in a responsible and measured way rather than through violence and revolution.
- Social leadership touches every aspect of the human condition. Fostering the social ties of local membership through community activities helps to reinforce social bonds, create reputation and referral networks, social safety nets and provide a context for the enjoyment of life with friends and family.
That's the sketch outline of what I'm thinking. I don't think you need to meet once every weekend in a brick building and play the organ. In fact, that would probably conflict with many people's existing religious commitments. Yes, there are lots of unsolved problems but I still think the core idea is sound.
Very good, Clayton. At its core though the community has to have some recognition of justice (which is essentially the NAP) as its central value. Essentially the purpose is to rebuild on a more solid basis the important community aspects that have atrophied due to the growth of the state.
Also, what actual activities do you see this group engaging in apart from general gatherings? Charity (including fund-raising), running classes? Which existing organisations can we pilfer ideas from? The Freemasons, the boy scouts?


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Savi SAVI-MELODY100-2 Melody 12V Pool and Spa Light (Two) with 100' Cord and One Intermatic 100W TransformerSKU #: SAVI-MELODY100-2 |
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Fundraiser for homeless a real sleeper
On Thursday, Nov. 15, business and community leaders participated in Attention Homes' inaugural Sleep Out for Homeless Youth event. The Sleep Out was geared toward raising awareness of homeless youth in our community and was part of Homeless and Runaway Youth Awareness Month.
Through the Sleep Out participants and their supporters, Attention Homes received more than 600 donations and raised almost $50,000 to support its Runaway & Homeless Youth program.
Participants who slept out under the stars were Joe Agne, Amanda Boyle, Kat Brand, Pat Bruns, Mary Estill Buchanan, Andrew Clurman, Larry Dennis, Tina Di Scipio, Steve Disbrow, Jon Dorn, Clay Evans, Jeff Foltz, Deb Gardner, Ann Goldman, Reeder Goldman, Sharone Goldman, Katie Green, Jim Hayes, Josie Heath, Kevin Kelley, Rusty McCoy, Jim McMaster, Gavin McMillan, Chris Nelson, Rachel Overton, Lee Penner, Shoshana Pollack, Ashley Quinn, Jim Rianoshek, Morgan Rogers McMillan, John Sheldon, Paul Smith, Mark Spiegel, Don Stensrud, Melissa Stratman, Rachael Stratman, Alice Swett, John Tayer, Will Toor and Ryan Van Duzer.
More information on the Sleep Out event is online at www.attentionhomes.org/sleepout/.
Boulder-based Zeal Optics Inc., originator of the GPS ski goggle, has signed Olympian and 11-time Winter X games participant Jussi Oksanen to its athletic team, joining fellow snowboarders Kimmy Fasani and Austen Sweetin. Oksanen will be sporting the new Zeal HD camera goggle this winter.
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Backpacker Magazine – April 2008
The year's best packs, boots, tents, jackets, and sleeping bags. Period. Plus, a never-die headlamp, a life-saving beacon, a back-saving ultralight chair, and more innovative, trail-tested gear.
SPOT Satellite Messenger
Now you can call in a rescue–or simply send the OK signal–from anywhere.
First, the problem: Wilderness adventurers have always faced a dilemma when choosing how to call in help. Cell phones are useless in remote locations without reception. Satellite phones are generally reliable, but heavy and expensive. Personal locator beacons (PLBs) are lightweight and reliable, but they can only send one message–an emergency rescue alert, even if you just have an ankle sprain.
Now, the solution: SPOT, an internet tracking beacon that weighs less than 8 ounces and uses GPS to determine your location, then transmits it along with your safety status (see below) to your pre-selected contacts via email or text message. The waterproof, floatable, soap bar-size SPOT has three key functions:
911: Push this button and GEOS Alliance, a global rescue coordination company, contacts local authorities (24 hours a day) and directs them to your location. The signal repeats itself every five minutes. You can also cancel any distress call. Optional rescue insurance is available (see below).
Help: If you're stranded but not in any immediate danger, push this button and up to four people you pre-selected will receive an email with a link to Google Maps showing your location. This is useful if, for example, you've just got a twisted ankle or are lost but not injured, in which which case friends or rangers can find and help you. If they choose to alert authorities, rescuers will know the situation is serious but not dire, and can respond appropriately.
OK: This feature gives your anxious spouse, mom, or envious friends the peace of mind that you're safe, prevents them from initiating premature search-and-rescue efforts should you merely be overdue, and also lets them follow your trip with a Google Map link showing your location. Your contacts can log in to your account and check your progress at any time; you don't need to do a thing.
During six weeks of sending test messages from canyons, timbered ravines, and alpine cirques, the SPOT reliably broadcast "OK" reports anywhere we had a decent view of the sky (such as a canyon with a 30-degree arc of view overhead). Check the SPOT website for coverage details. Like a GPS, it needs time to orient, and should be left on for at least 30 minutes–ideally, stationary and face up–when transmitting. In risky situations, simply leave it on. Two AA lithium batteries last long enough for 1,000 to 1,200 OK messages, or several weeks of continuous tracking. 7.3 oz; $159 plus the basic subscription of $99/year. Options: Tracking for $50/year; rescue insurance for $8/year (pays up to $100,000 in SAR fees). (866) 651-7768; findmespot.com.
We bought and used the new SPOT messenger last week while crossing the Sierra Nevadas on an eight day backpacking trip and it is terrible! We sent ~20 messages to family and friends across 8 days to let them know we were okay in a dangeruous storm, and TWO went through. Family and friends were worried. The worst part is that we came close to using the SOS/911 button and I now don't think it would go through. My brother spoke with the search ane rescue folks at the park when he did not hear from us and they confirmed that the SPOT devices are unreliable and not safe. I'm sending mine back today and cancelling the subscription. REI shouldn't even carry a safety device that is this poor.
Not sure why people have issues with the SPOT, I'm on my 2nd year using mine and love it. I use mine in the Montana Rockies in varying weather, rough terrain, valleys, peaks, etc. The device just has the same limitations as a GPS. The OK and Help features work well, I've been able to send both reliably. The Tracking feature is the only one with variable success. Unlike Help/Ok/911 a tracking message only gets sent once, regardless of success, they may not get through. You will also have to keep the SPOT on the outside of the pack to get tracking to work well. This is all so tracking doesn't run the batter down. I recently used tracking on a week long trip and the batteries (lithium) are barely used.
Pack your brain and your SPOT and help out your local SAR when they need to find you.
Doug Ward: Do you have the "SPOT" I will be traveling to COSTA RICA and was looking at getting this, if you have it does it work?
I always go to the Editor's Choice section FIRST!!! It has saved me countless hours at the local REI trying to figure out what's what. So Thank You Backpacker for being there and helping those of us who are not "self - proclaimed" gear experts. I have always found your advice to be right on track. Thanks Again
The MSR debate is really frustrating. I tend to post about products that have failed in the field as compared to raving about expensive gear that worked as advertised. I hate to think MSR money created this award. I have to believe that the MSR award was based on that product working. However it is wrong of BP to use a single filter for the test given the history. At least ten filters need to be field tested - preferably 30. The thing has been strongly panned by folks that had issues. The issue significantly is that it stopped filtering almost immediately and could not be cleaned.
Yo Ron, Just an fyi. The EC testing trip is only for the final elimination and discussion of EC candidate stuff. The whole process runs about 5 months, beginning when new products are rolled out at the Summer Outdoor Retailer show in August, and continuing until the very last deadlines (In the case of 09 EC, that was about two weeks ago).
So, that being said, yeah, I've been through Sonoran thornscrub (not a fan of the thorns, though the Sonoran is definitely cool), and your offer sounds intriguing...I'll follow up.
Colorado's Great Sand Dunes National Park and Sangre de Cristo Range in November, what kind of testing grounds are these for equipment? You might as well test equipment in the parking lot of Wal Mart. Steve Howe has obviously not been to the thornscrub in the Sierra Madre of Sonora. We are leaving March 16th to look for jaguars, if you are interested Steve. Leave behind your equipment endorsements, all of them, as we will pay your way.
I have a SPOT and it seems to work great. Even on the dash of the car it will track and works without a problem. I do agree the blinking light user interface is a bit lacking, but it does work as I expected-- especially when there was no cell service.
I purchased the Baltoro 70 because of the recommendation from BP and it is by far the best pack I have ever owned. I actually returned an Atmos 65 because it was uncomfortable and bought the Baltoro 70. I just got back from a trip that I carried around 35 lbs over about 8 miles and it seriously felt like I wasn't carrying anything at all. Great recommendation Backpacker!!
I'm not sure what standards you use for editors choice awards, but I can't believe the MSR Hyperflow would make it. I used this on part of the Sierra High Route in clean, silt free water and it was totally USELESS after a few liters of water. I followed their instructions on back-flushing to no avail, I was fortunate that I was in the high Sierras and I didn't really need to filter my water anyways. Fortunately I bought this at REI and they took this piece of c*** back. Don't waste your money!!!
Methinks Mr. Reason needs to have his lithium dose adjusted.
If there is one thing I can count on Backpacker for it is their complete disregard for product testing. SPOT is a a piece of JUNK (!!!)...except....if you're standing in an open meadow with nothing overhead. Oh yeah, make sure you hold it horizontally and not on your belt vertically as the antenna is meant to work horizontally. Since Backpacker can't seem to do a valid test, read any number of online tests which claim this technology is simply not worth the $150 for the unit, $150 for the service, the weight, and the what, 50% chance (at best) that it will work for you. I don't even want to mention the poor functionality, the lack of clear functions (blink little light, blink!), etc.
One other thing about Backpacker, GOOD GOD GUYS, figure out what light and ultralight actually means and break your habit of reporting about nothing other than the mainstream vendors (The North Face, Mountain Headwear, Kelty, etc.) as there are plenty of great cottage industry manufacturers out there who make better and lighter stuff (i.e. Backpackinglight.com, gossamergear.com, titaniumgoat.com, ula-equipment.com, mountainlaureldesigns.com, owareusa.com, etc.). SHEESH!
Hey Hector, I've been thinking about visiting El Junque for years (Trailside did a show there way back when). I'll propose it for upcoming editorial. Thanks for the reminder. And Feliz Navidad hombre!
When are you guys going to include el Yunque National Park. The rainforest @ Puerto Rico in your articles. Some countries go through endless summers and this place is one of them. Right now is 79 degrees F. Thanks a lot for your support.
For the -50 sleeping bag I agree, go for a Wiggys bag, made in the USA and guaranteed for LIFE. Plus their -50 bag is really two bags; a summer 40+ overbag that fits over the winter bag of your choice. I like mine a lot, but it's only a 0 degree.
People, people, people. Some of us have taken a negative turn or are at least a bit spoiled. I, for one, have grown to appreciate the Editor's Picks. There is a ton of gear out there, some good, some poor and some great and BP helps weed through it. Back in the dinosaur ages when I started backpacking in scouts (I'm 44), a waterbottle was a metal canteen or bota bag. High tech was when my younger brother spent an entire weeks worth of lawn mowing to buy a plastic waterbottle. It left a bad aftertaste, but was the cutting edge. Things have come a long way in a short while. In the space of a few years, the quality ON ALL FRONTS is much better. The rising tide floats all boats. Backpacker has helped encourage the improvements in quality. Of course, if a product does well their marketing department will sell the manufacturer add space. How else could a magazine stay in business. Now, I appreciate that they have people of different shapes, sizes and geography test the products. But the real test -- as far as I am concerned -- is when I use ANY product in the field or even at home. If I go back to it time and time again, it is a winner. I bet the editors of BP expect you to understand that these are their recommendations, not commandments. Oh by the way, you can now find a better waterbottle in EVERY convenience store and pop machine for the price of the soft drink, vitamin water or gatorade and they don't leak. Also, I'm not a novice. I have proven Editor's picks for myself on my successful Rainier climb, Mt. Hood, Northern Michigan, Honduras and the ultimate test of fixing the plumbing with the aid of a great headlamp.
To person who wants -50 degree sleeping bag. Look into Wiggy's. It doesn't pack down. But it will keep your ass warm. literally.
Wanted...A 50-degrees below zero sleeping bag?! Any help...
Anyone know where I can get a new set of knees-free?
I have the SPOT and the EL-8 everlite and they both rock. Next on my list is the Baltoro 70.


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Highlights from the Oral Argument in Halliburton v. Erica P. John Fund
Is Punishment Dead in America?
Bill on Bankruptcy: Detroit Falls Short on Good-Faith Test
Bill on Bankruptcy: Madoff Victims Rooting for Stanford Victory
Bill on Bankruptcy: Listening in the Dark at the NCBJ
Health Care Antitrust & the Supreme Court – Interview with Bruce Sokler, Member, Mintz Levin
Bill on Bankruptcy: Detroit Shows Need for Amending Bankruptcy Law
Bill on Bankruptcy: Detroit Judge Might Lose Grip on the Case
PennDOT to Increase Number of Pennsylvania Bridges with Weight Restrictions
Harvey Miller: Detroit Will Be In Bankruptcy "For A Long Time"
Grayson: Only 1 Agency Should Regulate Wall Street
Bill on Bankruptcy: Supreme Court Cases Will Have Wide Impact
Coyle: Robert's SCOTUS Doesn't Respect Congress
Goldstein: Expect More Litigation in Wake of Myriad Gene Patent Decision
What's So Funny About The U.S. Constitution? Colin Quinn's Unconstitutional: Off-Broadway
S&C's Cohen: Brown-Vitter Punishes Banks For Being Big
Cohen: Cyprus Is Not A Template For Future Restructurings
Can You Patent Human Genes? ACLU Says No
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In This Issue: - FEDERAL HEALTH CARE LEGISLATION UPDATE by Cynthia A. Moore, Member - MICHIGAN SENATE PASSES HEALTH INSURANCE CLAIMS ASSESSMENT LEGISLATION - TENNESSEE REVISES CAPTIVE INSURANCE LAW by John E....more
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Ocean 50 SS
horsepower. Twin 825 hp MTU Series 60 engines lift her effortlessly from the hole and to top speed in about 18 seconds. Engine options up to 1,015 hp each are available.
Her steering is responsive ... and one aft. As a result, the engines look lost in the abundant engineroom space. There is 29 inches ...
October 3, 2007 - 4:11pm
Light Heavyweight
is equipped with Landeweer's current engines of choice, twin MTU 12V2000s. With a two-thirds load of fuel ... , but access is acceptable. Reflective material on the overhead allows inspection of the top of the engines ... problem arise, the saloon sole incorporates three large hatches through which the engines are installed ...
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W Westerbeke sits abaft the starboard engine. Abaft on centerline is the Cruisair chilled water air-conditioning system. While it is possible to get outboard around the front of the engines, rear access is blocked ... her on one engine at low idle to settle in at 6.5 knots. With both engines at low idle, the GPS read 7 ...
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was within 40 pounds of the engineer's estimate.
They have learned to pay special attention ... Hyer, the engineer whose team designed the 81.5.
Sea Force's stringer system stiffens the bottom ... . Stout engine beds of inch-thick steel on foam stringers capped with aluminum are stiff enough to let ...
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Bertram 630
The MTU 16V2000s are massive engines; just the same, the 630's machinery space accommodates them comfortably with standing headroom. There are a variety of engine options. While I like the MTUs ... estimates the 630 will hit a cruising speed of 33 knots and a top speed of 36 knots with these engines ...
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Ocean Yachts 57 Odyssey
out to accept multiple displays, and the engine gauges are easily viewed. Plus, 360-degree visibility ... . Servicing the 57 will be absolutely no problem. Space around the engines and generator is plentiful ...
October 3, 2007 - 4:11pm
Hatteras 77
in sound shields are abaft the engines. Auxiliary systems, including chilled-water air-conditioning and a 1,200-gallon-per-day watermaker, are located forward and outboard of the engines respectively. As is the case ...
December 10, 2008 - 12:56pm
Bertram 700
market. Even with her hearty dose of horsepower, there is room to move about the engines, although access ...
October 3, 2007 - 4:11pm
Bertram 670
are also placed for easy service and spot checks. Access to the twin 23kW generators abaft the engines ...
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Colorado Wind Activities
This page summarizes wind activities in Colorado.
Wind Working Group
State Wind Working Groups form strategic alliances to communicate wind's benefits and challenges to state stakeholders.
Anemometer Loan Program
Anemometer data can help businesses, farmers, homeowners, and municipalities determine whether there is enough wind energy at a site to make a wind turbine investment economically feasible. Such data can also aid windfarm developers in determining whether an area is suitable for developing a large, utility-scale wind plant.
80-Meter Wind Map
The wind map can be used as a guide to identify regions for commercial wind development.
Small Wind Consumer's Guide
This guide provides consumers with information to help them determine whether a small wind electric system can provide all or a portion of the energy they need for their home or business based on their wind resource, energy needs, and economics.
Featured Resources
- Strategic Transmission and Renewables: A Vision of Colorado's Electric Power Sector to the Year 2050
- Economic Development Impacts of Colorado's First 1,000 Megawatts of Wind Energy
- Connecting Colorado's Renewable Resources to the Markets
- Colorado Incentives and Policies for Renewables and Efficiency (DSIRE Database)
More Wind Activities in Colorado
Links to websites such as state programs.
Lists upcoming events.
Past Events
List of Stakeholder Engagement and Outreach initiative-related past events.
School Wind Projects
Colorado has some schools with wind projects.
- Black Hawk, Colorado State University - Gilpin County Extension
- Burlington, Burlington High School
- Fairplay, South Park High School
- Flagler, Flagler High School
- Florence, Florence High School
- Fort Collins, Colorado Wind Application Center (Colorado State University)
- Franktown, Cherry Valley Elementary School
- Grand Junction, District 51 Career Center
- Kit Carson, Kit Carson Junior/Senior High School
- Nederland, Nederland Middle/High School
- Parker, Ponderosa High School
- Stratton, Stratton High/Middle School
- Walsenburg, John Mall High School
- Walsh, Walsh High School
- Wellington, Wellington Middle School
- Wray, Wray School District
Educational Programs
Colorado has some schools with educational programs or trainings.
- Aurora, Ecotech Institute
- Boulder, University of Colorado - Boulder (Renewable and Sustainable Energy Institute)
- Broomfield, Redstone College Wind Energy Technology Program
- Carbondale, Solar Energy International
- Fort Collins, Colorado Wind Application Center (Colorado State University)
- Golden, Colorado School of Mines
- Golden, Wind Energy Applications Training Symposium
- Lakewood, Red Rocks Community College
- Paonia, Solar Energy International
- Sterling, Northeastern Junior College
- Westminster, Front Range Community College
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9/1/2001 | CO | Publication |
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Colorado Public Utility Commission's Xcel Wind Decision [..More] | |||
4/5/2001 | CO | News |
Blowin' in the Wind: An alternative source of energy finally takes off [..More] | ||||
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Small Wind Electric Systems: A Colorado Consumer's Guide [..More] |


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San Francisco 49ers Gear
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Game day or not, you can't help but to exude 49ers spirit, so make sure you don't leave the house without it when you don this Fleck full zip hoodie. It features a speckled body with a fuzzy team-colored Sherpa lining and other vibrant team-colored accents, an embroidered team logo on the left chest, a league logo on the right sleeve and an embroidered appliqué team name across the back. No matter if you're coming or going, this hoodie makes sure to show off your San Francisco pride from all angles.
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This Genoa Middle School sweatshirt offers maximum versatility with full zip detailing. The full athletic cut gives freedom of movement and the colorfast fabric keeps your Cogwheels colors true wash after wash.
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