text:
POLL: Do Roundabouts Support Traffic Safety?
They're growing in popularity among traffic engineers and the Wisconsin DOT, but not everybody loves this form of intersection control. Vote in our poll and tell us more in the comments.
Traditional American attitudes about traffic roundabouts were probably best summed up in the 1985 film "National Lampoon's European Vacation," when Clark Griswold famously "can't get left."
But in Wisconsin and the United States, roundabouts have been increasingly developed at problem intersections. Wisconsin has more than 200 roundabouts, according to the state Department of Transportation. Three have been added on the Highway 33 construction in Port Washington, and they are sprinkled throughout suburban counties.
Not everyone loves them, of course. Sussex emphatically rejected the idea as part of Main Street reconstruction, with overwhelming community support.
And an accident Wednesday night at the intersection of Highway LL and Sunset Road in Port Washington ignited a debate about safety of that area on Patch, with a fair amount of support for roundabouts. User Angel days wrote:
The great thing about round-abouts though is that it reduces the chance of life threatening injuries because you have to go slower. I agree, people don't know how to use them yet but that is because they are new to most. People will eventually figure that out.
Do you think roundabouts are a good idea, or are they just a crazy mess? ("Look, kids … Parliament.") Vote in our poll and then take part in an online discussion in the comments.
6:48 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They make sense for a one-off seven-way intersection, but are otherwise deployed willy-nilly as a solution in search of a problem. An expensive PIA.
12:56 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
We have experienced round-abouts throughout Europe in small towns and large cities as well as several towns and suburban residential areas in the US. At first the process and etiquette of who has the right of way is very confusing. However, like everything else if folks slow down and think about the traffic flow it actually makes sense. The round-about keeps traffic moving at a steady stream, you don't have stop signs that are often ignored anyway and generally take less space to move traffic through an area. Roundabouts won't work for every situation, however there are many situations where they would make sense for steady traffic flow, slow motorists for safety - drivers would have a hard time using a roundabout and texting.
9:36 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
"However, like everything else if folks slow down and think about the traffic flow it actually makes sense" very hard concept for American drivers; too busy reading, eating, texting to be bothered with someone else's right of way or safety.
9:54 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
@Walker -- there's one more factor distracting drivers, and that is the jacka$$ behind you insisting you get out of his way. We actually had some fool honk his horn at us when we stopped to wait for oncoming traffic while coming out of a parking lot. Imagine if he'd been behind us when we stopped before making a right turn off a roundabout in order to let a pedestrian cross.
catherine bauer
7:25 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The title of the article promises more information on the safety of the roundabouts. The article does not provide this information.
7:41 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
From the WisDOT page:
Reduce wait time and fuel wastage.
Lessen the severity of accidents (low speed sideswipes and rear ending versus high speed t-bones and head ons)
Eliminate energized signals that are costly.
Automatically adjust to improve traffic movement during high or low volumes.
WisDOT has an interactive tutorial that shows how to use roundabouts. Sorry, do not know the site address but it is interesting. Someone else showed it to me.
Get used to them. Local, county and state governments will be installing more to get away from the capital cost of signal equipment and energy usage. Sorry, I didn't write the book on this one. Just the facts.
Scott Ziegler
12:58 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
That's right WISDOT save money on Stop lights but put in 200 signs and 300 Street lights and those cost triple. Makes sense to me. These roundabouts here make no sense. The one at LL & 33 maybe. The two a block apart at Market & Northwoods FAIL! Every time the lights at the I43 ramps cycle the traffic backs up into the roundabouts. I use Northwoods all the time and I sit and wait much longer now than pre-const mess so I guess only some save gas and time. I end up cutting through the Pig parking lot all the time. Bet Walgreens loves that. The places that make any sense for a roundabout are areas like Spring and Sunset or the 5 corners area in Cedarburg. All of the odd angle approaches to the intersections with poor or should I say horrible sight lines. Hey isn't the WISDOT secretary and Port Resident? Whats with the forest of signs? Second FAIL! The LL & Sunset crash is not a good argument for a roundabout. Why should we re-engineer a road because drivers are too stupid or lazy to LOOK both ways for traffic before going past the stop sign? At LL & Sunset you can see at least 4-6 city blocks each way from the sign, and folks 45 MPH is not that fast a rate of closure that the average driver can judge weather it is safe to go or not. What make the magic roundabout make the driver pay attention and follow the rules of the road? Things to consider. Oh BTW I have a friend in the UK that tells me they are ripping out all kinds of roundabout there. HUUMMMM Wonder Why?
Plow Boy
4:48 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The intersections that are up & down stream of the round about will not save any fuel because they will have longer wait times and more accidents.
8:21 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Just a thought.
Many elderly shouldn't be driving in the first place. And snow covers the arrows, the pavement and the road in general. People go off the road on straight sections of the road all the time because they can't distinguish where the road ends and the ditch starts when it snows.
Most county deputies and state patrolmen can attest to this.
Maybe reassess your driving skills if you have a problem with roundabouts?
Just a thought, that's all.
10:51 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I agree about the elderly. Stand outside a Walgreens and watch them back out their cars. A lot of near misses because they can't turn their heads.
11:54 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I totally disagree in general about the elderly. Who do I see going thru red lights, tailgating, speeding, forgetting about turn signals, no not the elderly but rather the 20's, 30 and 40 somethings. also, who is texting and on their cellphones believe me not the elderly. So, before one makes a stupid generalization look at the rest of the picture!
4:46 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Here's a quote:
"By 2025, a quarter of all drivers in the United States will be over the age of 65. Intersections are the single most dangerous traffic environment for drivers of any age with left-hand turns being the single most dangerous traffic maneuver that any of us can make. Forty percent of all crashes that involve drivers over the age of 65 occur at intersections. This is nearly twice the rate of experienced younger drivers. AARP would like to see more roundabouts constructed because of the many safety benefits that they present for drivers of all ages." - Jana Lynott, AARP Public Policy Institute
Bob McBride
8:45 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Out in Waukesha County where I-94 meets Sawyer Road, a simple 4 way intersection that had been controlled by traffic lights and which never had much in the way of traffic was replaced by 4 consecutive roundabouts. Like them or not, that's just plain stupid.
Laura Bierdemann
9:41 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I agree, that intersection was turned into a big mess that has little to no traffic to begin with!
Andy Smith
10:46 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I drive through Sawyer Road @ I-94 all the time. Of course the traffic volume does not YET support the cluster of roundabouts there, but now was the time to build them before the next 80-200 acres of the massive Pabst Farms development of homes, businesses, schools and other institutions is constructed. It cost much less to get them done now than it will five years from now when all that traffic could have been trying to force its way through that already unsafe underpass and on-ramp arrangement. Imagine trying to accomplish reconstruction with multiple-times the traffic volume present. So, it cost less, anticipated near-future dramatic increases in traffic volume and updated a dangerous and outdated design. That's hardly stupid. What's stupid is people who don't "get" roundabouts and because they don't like them and are being forced to learn something new (how lazy we have become) are now writing articles about them, or signing petitions to stop them, or bitching endlessly about them. My adopted father (he'd now be about 100) hated freeways, didn't "get" on and off ramps, drove miles out of his way to travel on traditional roads, refusing to learn new driving skills. History repeats itself, always, if you just wait long enough.
Bob McBride
11:21 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The construction/expansion you mention isn't a given. Pabst Farms hasn't turned out to be the raging success initially anticipated. Building stuff because it might be cheaper to do so now or because some segment of the government wags a pile of cash in front of your face (or threatens to withhold the same) isn't sound governance. In addition, 4 consecutive roundabouts is not the only way to handle traffic, should it increase to those levels. And to suggest its more efficient and safer at this point in time when no one seems to be able to produce empirical data backing that up is as speculative as your take on future costs and future needs.
11:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Try the 4 roundabouts off 9th Street exit from US 41 at Oshkosh during rush hour, it's a true hazard zone!
patti benson
8:55 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I do not like them either. They confuse me and I am not elderly yet.
MaryJo Pogorzelski
8:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I don't think it helps one way or another - you have so much more watching/waiting to do than a stop sign or light.
9:25 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Excellent comment MaryJo. For that reason, accidents are lessened. Too many are on autopilot with their cellphones and the like at signalized intersections. Now we have to be awake, aware and anticipate others intentions rather than assuming at signalized or stop sign controlled intersections that the other person is paying attention. Good comment!
Amy Oechsner
8:57 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I absolutely love them. At first, I was very scared, not sure how to maneuver them, but once I learned how, I saw the true benefit. I no longer have to sit and wait at a red light when there are no cars on the other side, wasting gas and time. I wish every right light would be turned into a traffic circle. We would save so much gas, time, and energy.
Kerry Wirsbinski
10:57 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I love them too. I do think there should be public service announcements or some sort of commercials to teach people how to use them since they are so new.
Me in the Falls
8:57 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Anyone been to Oshkosh lately? What the DOT has done to all the on and off ramp intersections from Hwy 41 is ridiculous! How can something that confusing be safer?
Denise Konkol
3:59 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Oh, amen to that! They have replaced all of their off ramp stoplights with roundabouts. I'm an intelligent person and I'm not rattled by these things, but it took us 2 or 3 tries to get to the restaurant along the frontage road on our way back yesterday. Those are a nightmare. Too many options, and adding more signs won't help a driver who has to make a decision in a very short distance without cutting other drivers off.
9:03 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I didn't like the idea at first, but once they were built and I learned how to use them I think they are much better than stop lights!
9:04 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Hate roundabouts and avoid them whenever possible.
9:06 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They provide continual traffic flow~agreed. Lower amount of accidents at intersections~ thats a given with the design. But what they dont mention is that with the continual traffic spitting out of a roundabout, there is no break in traffic to pull out of driveways and sideroads. Some intersections it does make an improvement, like Good Hope and Townline. But others, i feel it was ridiculous solution.
9:10 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I don't get how people are confused by roundabouts. U come up to it, enter the circle (which always travels counter clockwise), and exit the circle when u need to.
Don Berg
9:11 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Do stop signs or light controlled intersections promote safety?
10:16 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Until someone blows through the light... Then, major accident, ambulances, traffic backup, etc.
9:16 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Not trying to make a political statement here but the reality is that if you want to save on tax dollars, roundabouts are a direct result. Let Walker, Doyle or who ever take the blame/credit but it goes towards the fed funding of our state highway system. Just like the emissions testing for SE WI, that is directly tied to fed highway funds.
Laurie Giese
9:24 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I'm all for them. $$andSense makes a lot of valid points. What's the hurry, people? Slow down, read the signs and proceed. No sitting at red lights and slower speeds make for a reduction in serious or fatal accidents. No traffic standards also reduce the cost of constant maintenance. I'd like to see more roundabouts.
9:25 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Round-abouts are great. They help control traffic while reducing congestion. I used to live in Washington where roundabouts are used frequently. They keep traffic flowing, reducing congestion. However, the drivers there know and understand how to use roundabouts.
The roundabout at the off ramp of I43 and Mooreland is horrible, because it isn't clearly marked, nor does it remind people to slow down. There are several lanes, and little signage.
The problem lies with little exposure to them, and little education about how to use a roundabout. Drivers ED for new drivers should go over how to use roundabouts, as well at the written test. And older drivers should be experienced enough to be able to get the gist of them quickly.
9:29 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Learn how to use them or stop driving. It's your responsibility.
Dan Vitek
9:42 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Big problem with them most are to tight and if you get on them with a smi watch out they will wipe you out . More then once had to take to the shoulder to keep from getting side swiped by them and the big rig drivers dont realy care i
4:49 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
I'm pretty sure most state laws direct motorists to not drive beside semis in modern roundabouts.
Lisa R.
9:47 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Just yesterday there was a 3 car round-about accident at Racine Ave and I 43!
9:53 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I'm not a fan.... Try to avoid them but that's getting more difficult.
Brandon Karpowitz
9:53 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Roundabouts don't CAUSE accidents. Horrible drivers do. This state is filled with people who can't even merge onto a freeway properly, so it's no surprise that these things are baffling to most drivers. And as for semi trucks, why not just give them room when they are going through them? The 3 second you lose, won't mean much.
Laura Bierdemann
10:07 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
At the intersection of 59 and 83 in Genesee, waiting for the semi isn't the problem....they get stuck and tie up the intersection for quite a while. It is not very confusing at all.
3:10 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I agree 100%! There have been too many instances when I have been driving around the roundabout on Drexel near Hwy 100 in Franklin and I've had to come to a stop because people don't obey the Yield sign. As far as I'm concerned, that one was absolutely unnecessary because people drive at least 10 miles over the 35 mph speed limit on that street and most blatantly disregard other drivers. It's only a one lane roundabout, so it's a pain in the arse.
We successfully voted one down in Greendale; it was proposed for the new Grange Ave entrance to Southridge, leading into Northway in the VIllage. Grange is two lanes on either side there, and traffic has never been a problem, even in Southridge's heyday. The stop & go lights serve the propose there. I'm not opposed to them in high traffic areas, such as the two close together on Moorland Rd in New Berlin. Traffic coming on and off the Rock can be heavy due to the Ridge theaters, restaurants, Target, etc.
Gary Tefft
9:54 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Getting through them when there is no other traffic is fine; I love not having to stop for a stop sign when there are no other vehicles in sight. But, under light to moderate traffic, drivers who are too timid to enter the circle slow things down as badly as stop signs. Traffic circles also expose you to drivers who have no lane discipline or are unaware of the way to properly maneuver through the intersection. I'm not confident that this will improve as drivers become familiar with circles. My sense is that average driver skills and habits deteriorate, rather than improve over time. By this, I'm referring to drivers between the ages of 25 and 55, not the elderly. I'm on the road daily as a delivery driver and these are my observations.
Laura Bierdemann
9:55 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
If they are built appropriately they work. If they are one lane like the one on Hwy 59 and Hwy83 in Genesee, the large trucks and 'wide loads' that frequently use those highways cannot make it around. They have tried to lower the inner curb, but it was a big waste of money, it still does not function as a proper roundabout should. Make them large enough to support the type of vehicles that frequent the area.
4:50 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Modern roundabouts are designed for trucks by including the center flat area around the circle. It's not a sidewalk, it's called a truck apron, and it's for trucks to begin a sharp right or end a left or U-turn on. Visit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsCoI7lERGE
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nVzsC2fOQw for examples.
Bob McBride
9:57 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
It would be interesting to see some published data indicating whether or not they actually do increase safety in areas where they were installed. The assumption that certain features inherent in them assure safety is no different than similar assumptions made about other types of intersections - that drivers can/will negotiate them as they should. I've seen the yield signs that are supposed to control entry into the roundabout ignored in much the same fashion they're ignored at other types of intersections.
They do tend to eat up a significantly larger amount of real estate than traditional intersections of two undivided, single lane roads. Obviously that limits their use in urban areas. In some areas I'm familiar with where they've replaced traditional intersections, they occupy, in part, what once was private property.
I'm sure they make sense in a lot of areas. I've definitely seen them installed in areas where they don't.
Robert Schraml
10:00 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
If roundabouts lessen accidents than why are the three worst accident prone areas in Madison roundabouts? Check it out on the DOT website. Madison roundabouts and any other roundabouts are accidents waiting to happen. Upstate New York back in the 70's & 80's went the route of roundabouts and now realize they were a mistake and are removing them due to high accident rates. It seems that Wisconsin is always about 30 yrs. behind when it comes to issues like this.
10:06 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I agree with you 100%. And, especially the statement we are always about 30 yrs.
Gregory Kluck
5:29 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Because in Madison, drivers of Prius' are all orgasmic about the technology of their chosen vehicle they get all twitterpated with it and lose control. Plus the old college profs in their 35 year old VW buses, SAABs and Volvos can't make enough power to get out of the way while listening to NPR. (this is humor, don't flame me0
4:54 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Total crashes is a misleading number. Crash rate only gets at half the issue also. Crash rate compares number of crashes to number of entering vehicles and is expresses as crashes per million entering vehicles. A value more than 1.00 is usually looked into further. Crash severity is most important. fender benders versus injury or fatals.
4:55 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
you're confusing rotaries and traffic circles with modern roundabouts. The first modern roundabout in the US was built in 1990 in Nevada.
10:02 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I don't like them at all. I will avoid them if at all possible. Most of the one's I have seen are not clearly marked as to what the traffic pattern should be. And a lot of drivers do not know what the meaning of YIELD is. Also if you are crossing over the round about, you can sit there for quite awhile before you can get across at intersections with a heavy flow of traffic.
Mike Knight
10:16 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Based on Clark Griswold's experience I feel that Roundabouts could be a nightmare for many motorists in the heart of rush hour traffic.
10:58 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Based on Wisconsin drivers' chronic refusal to let a person merge right, I agree with you.
4:55 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Many people confuse older styles of circular intersections with modern roundabouts. East coast rotaries are not modern roundabouts. Large multi-lane traffic circles (Arc D'Triumph) are not modern roundabouts. European Vacation was not a modern roundabout. New Jersey/Europe are not removing modern roundabouts. Visit www.k-state.edu to see the differences. www.fhwa.dot.gov has a video about modern roundabouts that is mostly accurate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHzly_6lWM ).
10:33 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Roundabouts have made Moorland & I-43 more efficient and safer. Even with the theater as one exit, which brings many infrequent travelers to the area. And the morning/afternoon commute is much more efficient and safer, with fewer close calls, no one blowing through the red lights.
83 from 59 to Mukwonago is much less putty with the addition of roundabouts.
I have witnessed one too many major accidents and waited at too many empty intersections for a green light not to appreciate roundabouts.
Robert Schraml
10:38 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Most of the roundabouts that are being built in Wisconsin are toyabouts. If anyone has been out east and encountered a major roundabout they are 3 or 4 lanes wide. When you get into the circle you may go around at least 3 times before you are able to get over to exit.
At Cabelas 3 roundabouts in a row and they are toyabouts. What was the thought process there? The only sensible roundabout that I have seen so far is the one on hwy. 74 in the Lannon/Sussex area. That one is very effective due to the off setting intersection connections.
Putting a toy roundabout at a normal intersection is STUPID!
John T. Pokrandt
10:49 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I hate roundabouts, they are expensive to build, confusing for drivers and take up more space. I especially dislike the roundabouts planned for Discovery Parkway that make an already too wide road even more invasive.
4:56 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
The first cost of any two choices is a poor way to compare. Life-cycle cost is the best (present value of future costs, a.k.a. net present value). When comparing modern roundabouts to signals for a 20-year life cycle (the standard period), modern roundabouts usually cost us much less. Costs to compare include: first cost (design/land/construction), operation and maintenance (electricity, re-striping, etc.), crash reduction, daily delay (what's your time worth?), daily fuel consumption, pollution (generated), area insurance rates (this costs more where it is less safe to drive). Each of these things, and others, can be estimated for any two choices and everyone near or using the project area will pay some portion of all of these costs.
More info: http://tinyurl.com/739pu3d
10:56 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
As we've recently seen, roundabouts are not safer for pedestrians, who already have enough problems in 'suburban' areas where drivers aren't expecting pedestrian traffic in the first place. At least with a light, cars have to stop sometimes. Some traffic lights will even have a pedestrian button to give you a fighting chance against the left turners. At a roundabout, drivers tend to be more worried about the cars behind them than the pedestrian in the crosswalk.
4:57 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
The safety of a pedestrian crossing any road, regardless of the intersection control, can be enhanced in many different ways. Signing and marking the crossing is usually the first step. Shortening the crossing distance is another. The safest shortening method is a median that permits pedestrians to cross one direction of traffic at a time (two-phase). This is particularly helpful for the youngest and oldest pedestrians. Enhanced markings include advance stop bars where any half of the crossing has more than one lane. This helps reduce the double-threat collisions. Raised crossings slow traffic right were pedestrians cross. If emergency access is a concern, placement of speed cushions in advance of the crossing are a solution. Electronic warnings, like rapid flash beacons, increase motorists' awareness of pedestrian activity. Hybrid beacons (with a red indication) or full signals are usually reserved for locations with the busiest traffic or pedestrian uses (due to cost). One advantage of beacons is they usually rest in off, so auto traffic is only delayed when pedestrians need the extra help crossing. With a menu of ways to improve crossing safety, choosing the best one depends on local conditions. However, each of these options is moot if there are not laws in place, or enforced, to clearly identify who has the right of way to begin with.
Muskego Citizen
11:11 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Love! Love! Love! them. People tend to fear and dislike the unknown and change. Yield the person on the left. When you have room, go. Do not stop or slow down while driving through one. It's that simple. Any haters need to become familiar and comfortable with them. Once they do, they will most likely, at the very least, like them too.
MFalls Girl
11:12 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
when we were in Poland they had a roundabout It was a very busy town and we had to wait a long time before we could enter the roundabout and then we had to pull into it fairly fast so we could get on
. In low traffic areas they are OK but busy places they don't make sense.
11:32 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I wasn't sold on them at first... but I think they make a lot of sense at some intersections. I enjoy not getting held up continuously by stop lights and they DO, without question, prevent severe crashes. Look no further than Racine Ave. and Kelsey Dr. in Muskego, where very serious / fatal accidents were happenning several times a year. I don't think there has been one traumatic accident there since the roundabout was constructed. Definately not possible with stop lights. Saves on energy costs / maintenance over the long run too.
Robert Zilske
11:36 am on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Unless we actually start enforcing the 15 MPH spped limit in roundabouts, we will see more and more accidennts
As well, where we have two lane roundabouts on one lane roads (as in Barker at North in Brookfield) speeders will use them to pass and go even faster than the straight road speed.
Properly regulated as to speed, they are fine. Since we don't seem to regulate them, they are more dangerous than a set of street lights.
Tom Plechaty
12:03 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They save lives, gas and time. End of story. They are basically simple. Cars to your left have the right of way. Cars to your right have to bow to you. Love them!
Dave Koven
12:10 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They're not what we're used to, but with practice, we'll get better at them. Switching from inner to outer lanes rapidly so you can access an off ramp, is what bothers people the most.
12:19 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They are too small. Semi drivers cannot help but cross over intot the next lane. It's physics!
Don't really like or dislike. Either way they are a pia!
Jay Sykes
12:19 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Now that everyone has masted the Sawyer Road Slalom we can move-on to bigger and better roadway challenges. The counter-flow or 'magic' roundabout has, well, um, er..... just look at the diagram link and the photograph link.
Skirnir Hamilton
12:32 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I have to say they proposed one near my sons school a few years ago and I was opposed. Why? One, he and I walked to school regularly, and while something needed to be done with the intersection, having a roundabout near two elementary schools and a college, just didn't seem to be a good idea. I have no idea how pedestrians are supposed to navigate a roundabout when the point is to not stop traffic. How does a pedestrian cross then? Two, there is also a high school within 1/2 a mile of the intersection. When we went to the public meeting, the engineer who was there admitted that having a roundabout near a high school, where drivers tend to drive too fast can be a bad idea. In the end the roundabout was denied and they put in a traffic light. The traffic light has really helped cut down on accidents. I guess traffic circles in areas that have a decent amount of traffic and no pedestrians might be okay, but not in an area with kids walking to and from school, downtown, or new young drivers, IMO.
4:58 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
US schools with modern roundabouts nearby:
Ladera Ranch Middle/Elementary School, Ladera Ranch, CA
Pine Lake Elementary, Issaquah, WA
Sunset Elementary, Bellevue, WA
Cotton Elementary, San Antonio, TX
Skyview Elementary, Clearwater, FL
Sunflower Elementary, Lawrence, KS
Fruitville Elementary, Venice, FL
First Ward Elementary, Charlotte, NC
Cherokee Elementary, Cincinnati, OH
Truscott Elementary, Loveland, CO
1:02 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I don't see why we can't give ourselves time to get used to them, since they do in fact save money and wait time. Yes, they can be confusing at first, but give it a chance. People complain they will cause more accidents because people don't know when to go and when to yield (yield signs? hello?), but even if someone goes at the wrong time, they can't be going more than 25-30 mph around a circle, so there's no way it can be as risky as the idiots flying through red lights at 60 mph. I think people are just too afraid of change and need to give them a chance.
samantha brojanac
1:19 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
all the comments are for traffic. what about the safety of our kids riding their bikes or walking to a friends house. The roundabouts are very pedestrian unfriendly
4:11 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
If the kids are riding their bikes on the roads, wouldn't they just follow the same rules as the vehicles? And couldn't walkers just stay away from the road a bit? I guess I just don't understand why it's so drastically different or dangerous for pedestrians or bikers.
5:01 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
You'll have to do better than express fear to sway me. You're talking about crossing any road, but putting the roundabout label on your fear. Modern roundabouts have medians so pedestrians only have to focus on one direction at a time. This is of great benefit to our youngest and oldest pedestrians.
Kitty Hill
1:43 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I see the logic in safety factors and municipal budget savings, and I agree it's just a matter of getting used to it. However, I just survived a TRIPLE-ROUNDABOUT in Green Bay where they replaced the traditional 3-lane major artery Mason St./Hwy. 54 bridge over Hwy. 41, a big pain-in-the-butt that felt never ending. How are semis going to maneuver this major thoroughfare in winter? Some roundabouts defy reason.
4:07 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I do agree that it's sillier for major intersections. It can be done, but it's not necessarily better than a light in that case. But for smaller intersections I just can't see the notable downsides.
Tishia Lynch
2:05 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I hate roundabouts, they are confusing and irritating with too many people moving all at once, making the possibility of an accident much higher!!
4:08 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
People are going to be driving a lot slower through a roundabout, though. Even if people can't figure out what to do and get in an accident, it's a drastically different situation than someone running a red light at 60 mph.
2:16 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I have driven from one end of Ireland to the other and roundabouts are everywhere. If I can drive on the 'wrong' side of the road, on the 'wrong' side of a car, in a strange country and not make a single wrong turn, handling them here should be (and is) a piece of cake. They make people slow down and think. You also can't just go plowing through the intersection.
2:30 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Poll: Does anyone FULLY stop at a 4 way intersection?
MFalls Girl
3:33 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I am one of those ELDERLY (70) and I stop FULLY it is the young people who are terrible drivers especially young women on their cell phones
9:15 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Yes, the vast majority of folks, young or old, FULLY stop (if not always for the full recommended three seconds, in addition to looking both ways) at four way intersections (and stop signs in general), at least from what I've seen.
One of the big advantages of roundabouts is that, in most cases, the entry points are signed as yield (to traffic), meaning you don't have to fully stop if you can see that no traffic is coming from the left.
5:03 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
While it depends on the time of day and how heavy traffic is, in the few locations I've had counted, the stopping rate is 20%-40%. Sounds more like an all-way yield to me.
Bob Kosharek
3:17 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Best thing on the intersections. Keeps the traffic moving. You have to be alert, and drive slow.
Scandihovian Lady
3:22 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
In general, people don't like change. When we were fifteen and first learning how to drive, we had to learn new skills. This is just another new skill that has to be learned and down the road, no pun intended, ina few years when roundabouts are commonplace around the country, they will be second nature to our driving skill set and no one will give them a thought And by the way, stop picking on the elderly folks because you'll be one someday and clinging to your independence like these folks.
3:57 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I've had first and most experience with roundabouts in Great Britain. My issue is my instinct makes me want to head into them going left. People in the UK, Europe, etc. learn to drive with them and here people are used to the most simplistic instruction. Add any level of sophistication and many become confused and frightened.
A great way to avoid traffic issues is mass transit! ; )
10:23 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
My only concern would be any impact on walking over crosswalks.
Yeah, I stopped using mass transit after ten years of missed transfers (first bus 5 mintues late, second bus 5 minutes early about 40% of the time), 30 minute waits exposed to severe weather, and overall trip times often the same as if I walked the whole distance.
Try keeping a job when the bus doesn't get you there at least one every day week, unless you have the time to leave 90 minutes early so you can afford a bus just not showing up, and missing a transfer. MCTS is the transportation of last resort for good reason. In certain niches it does work, though, like when there happen to be bus stops very nearby both your origin and destination, and you can take one bus in a straight shot. They falsely hold up the exceptions as the rule in all their marketing, though.
9:29 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Only if you have the sort of job that lets you leave precisely at quitting time and that quitting time is earlier than the last bus. I've never had one of those.
I agree, jbw -- my sole experience with taking the bus was enough to sour me on it for good. A trip across Waukesha from the university campus that took fifteen minutes by car lasted an hour and a half, with two fifteen minute waits in the cold and a very circuitous route. If you don't have a car or a schedule to keep, the bus is fine.
Bill Mack
4:44 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Stupid idea, very uncomfortable trying to get through them. I don't think they are safe.
6:01 pm on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
So you slow down when going through them? Sounds like they're working.
Plow Boy
4:44 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Another problem a roundabout creates is the intersections away from it. A stop sign or traffic light creates gaps in traffic were a vehicle can safely cross the road that is away from the round about controlled intersection. Try crossing HWY 164 north of highway Q on the south end of Washington County during peak traffic times were once there were no backups at away intersections from the four way stop and now there is more accidents and backups away from the intersection with the roundabout.
By the way recent data from the state is will not be used for the round about for at least 2 years untill traffic gets to learns how to use round abouts.
The DOT or Muncipality must conduct a local public hearing prior to construction and not automatically insert a roundabout into a reconstruction plan with real answers and statistics not what is good for communitees with less traffic flow.
7:38 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
"If aThe DOT or Muncipality must conduct a local public hearing prior to construction and not automatically insert a roundabout into a reconstruction plan with real answers and statistics not what is good for communitees with less traffic flow."
Public hearings are only required if state or fed monies are being spent on a road project. They are always posted in the media. Those who want to bitch after the fact, well, sucks to not pay attention where, when and how your tax dollars are spent. Snooze = lose.
a quiet conservative
4:50 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
This is the stupidest quote...
The great thing about round-abouts though is that it reduces the chance of life threatening injuries because you have to go slower. I agree, people don't know how to use them yet but that is because they are new to most. People will eventually figure that out.
Because most people are trying to figure it out while IN THE ROUNDABOUT.
Burton Robertson
4:53 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I personally don't like them but understand how they save fuel and reduce
bad accidents, I find it hard to believe it is reducing overall accident numbers... What I find the real problem is when the design of them creates a problem cases in point is semi's trying to get through the one south of I-43 on moorland .. it is not possible for them to negotiate the intersection and stay in just one lane, if when a bad accident occurs who will be liable, The truck driver for failing to stay in the lane or the state for bad design?? another example is on Hwy 20 & 45 just north of Union Grove.. the roundabout here and it's design has forced some farmers to drive a mile or two just o get to there farm fields because their machinery can not go through the round about without removing signs and light posts... Lastly A similar problem was adverted due to the smart Firefighters in Franklin, when designing them there to be in front of the Target store on Drexel avenue, the original sign would have made it impossible for the department's Ladder truck unable to through it without crashing, Chalk another one up for the Firefighters saving someone else's behind!
a quiet conservative
4:58 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
As for the whole "They work in Europe" talking point that doesn't work because they are converting cobblestone walkways into a driving path and need to maximize.
In Caledonia they want to destroy a business (DeRango's Pizza/Restaurant) to help mergre two different intersections and five points of traffic.
I heard a recent interview with the head of the DOT and he won't challenge his staff to do better.
7:22 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
quiet conservative
You are referring to one Mark Gottlieb, appointed to lead WisDOT by one Scott Walker, Govenor of WI. Mr. Gottlieb was a municipal engineer (Grafton) and mayor (Port Washington) in Ozaukee County prior to becoming a duly elected state representative on the conservative Republican party ticket before his appointment as secretary of WisDOT. Now you don't like his directive with roundabouts?
a quiet conservative
8:46 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The problem and small minded, not advancing circular thinking at WisDOT has been there for decades. Roundabouts have been in Europe for decades and have limited success outside of Europe.
This isn't about the current head being taking to task for old decisions. He needs to take charge now...if you have driven in Downtown Milwaukee and changes to the ramp to get onto 794 and making it into ONE lane. If he can fix that poor decision then there is quality change going on there.
Don't make it partisian since the REST of DOT was put in over the past 20 years.
Yo $$..it's not about $$ it's about smart decision making
9:27 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
quiet conservative
"I heard a recent interview with the head of the DOT and he won't challenge his staff to do better."
And Gottlieb's job is to stand by and let the 20 years status quo continue? Then he is useless. May as well have been appointed by Dolye.
"Yo $$..it's not about $$ it's about smart decision making"
So what is all the Walkerisms about saving money? Do you see your conflict here?
So you are giving Gottlieb a pass? Management's job is to turn it around. There is no more union with WisDOT. And you are buying into this? A conservative my butt!
Mike B
5:02 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Rounds work perfectly fine when people know how to use them, IF the round about is constructed well. Many round abouts are too made too small so it's hard to know when to go or not because by the time you figure out if the car on your left is turning or not, it's right on top of you. Larger round abouts work great and help with traffic flow.
However, when it comes to pedestrian safety, I think round abouts have major issues. People learn that they only need to look left when entering a round about which makes pedestrians likely to not be seen. Also since cars are constantly moving, pedestrians don't have a clear cut time to cross.
One of the main reasons they were shot down on Main St in Sussex is that Main St is a huge street for kids and families to walk and bike along and round abouts don't work well in either of those circumstances.
Eventually people will become more and more familiar with how they work, and the people building them will learn what does and doesn't work when building them, and everyone will eventually accept them.
Vicki Bennett
5:36 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
It costs more money to put in a roundabout than to put up a stop sign. I don't know how many of you have visited in the Washington D.C. area where roundabouts are quite common. They are a nightmare! No one is courteous enough to take his/her turn merging into the roundabout. Isn't it too bad that fads seem to dictate our safety on our streets and highways. Of course, we don't have to worry in Shorewood as most of our streets are in complete disrepair without any plans to repair them in the near future. Let's hope that the roundabout fad is gone by the time that the village board sees fit to allocate money to fix them or we'll have to play dodge car too.
5:05 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Modern roundabouts or traffic cirlces? name an intersection so we can check. Know what you're talking about before you speak.
11:13 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
I used to live just outside of DC and drove in the city a lot. The problems encountered had less to do with roundabouts and more to do with tourists getting underfoot (so to speak).
Gregory Kluck
5:37 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I find roundabouts awesome. At night, they make great skid pads for testing the adhesion rates of new performance tires.....uh, just kidding.
5:50 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I hate roundabouts. The two things I have learned from the one on Drexel Ave. in Franklin, it's too small and the most aggressive driver goes through first!
Ronald Peter
6:25 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They are an obnoxious pain in the rear. When I was stationed in Italy 43 years ago, I thought they were stupid, I still do. I've noticed then, and now, that a lot of drivers just do what they want to do at the these intersections.
Steve W
6:35 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Stop it with the cell phone, someone's texting argument. That is irrelevant here. Roundabouts just suck. Period. Someone in the DOT thought they could save a few bucks and jammed these down our throats. Can't wait to see the bill to remove them and go back to stop lights.
6:57 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Sorry Steve, you get what you vote for. WisDOT is a state agency. You wanted less taxes, this is the result.
9:21 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Ever since I first experienced roundabouts driving in a nearby state where they are used relatively frequently, I've found myself frustrated waiting at an old-style intersection with stop lights, twiddling my thumbs waiting for the lights to change with no traffic in sight.
Daniel S.
6:37 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I believe the "real" key here is the saved money in the long run. The thinking may also be that it will save fuel waste and be better for the environment. This might be true, if as mentioned by many: People knew how to effectively navigate them and there were no disrespectful and law breaking drivers out there.
Ronald Peter
6:47 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
People don't care, they just plow im and do what they want to do on these redicilous pieces of wasted money.
7:47 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Anybody try the 5 in a row that are up by Cabela's in Richfield? I get dizzy going 'round in circles and always miss my "exit" and have to try it all over again. Hate them!
Mark Hochschild
8:24 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
if memory serves me right, the first full year the roundabouts at I43 and Moorland Rd were in place they led New Berlin in traffic mishap occurrences
Mark Hochschild
8:26 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I once had a concrete truck come at me the wrong way in a roundabout at the one on 25 and Canal just west of the casino.
8:33 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
All you need to remember when going thru a roundabout is yield to the traffice from the left, just that simple. Not rocket science, real easy.
8:39 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I don't mind them, except for the morons on hwy 38 and K that can't figure out when to yield and then I have to stop for them even though I have the right of way.
Matthew Schroeder
8:58 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
Love the conversation on this ... the first time I drove roundabouts was in Boston about 10 years ago. Everybody was going 45 mph through them and it scared the snot out of me. But I got out in one piece.
nicholle rogers
9:22 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
They might not be a horrible idea in SOME spots but the places they are deciding to put them are just ridiculous. We have one right in our area with two little dead end roads on either side and one through road with very little traffic at all. The grass is completely overgrown in the middle. How is this safer then a stop sign?
Rees Roberts
10:02 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
I'm totally convinced there is no subject we all can agree on.
Are we all still in agreement that we should still use cars? Let's go back to horses. Let's have a poll on that. I promise you there would be people who would want to use em instead of cars.
I'm just saying the human condition is not one which takes to change very well. No one likes change.
Take away all things new. I'M KIDDING. LOL
Daniel S.
11:47 pm on Sunday, August 19, 2012
The thought isn't really that way out Rees, look at all those who ride bicycles today. Some would rather ride a horse than a bicycle, they are better equipped for snowy weather, and have a sense to detect bad weather, unlike humans. Yep, a horse is actually a pretty darn good mode of transportation and it works as an engine for the pickup when you need it or the wagon when you want to go camping.
9:23 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
They are indeed, except for the pollution ( pulverized horse manure was the bane of cities at the beginning of the Twentieth Century) and the unpredictable nature of the horse. Bicycles hardly ever take fright and run away at a high rate of speed. They also tend not to stay where you park them. I speak from experience.
Dave Mickler
12:42 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
I travel and have been exposed to round abouts out east for years - they are the greatest and cheapest way to move traffic thru intersections - the only downside is they take more land - another advantage to east coast driving is the limited access to major roads like Bluemound. - Frontage roads move traffic in one direction with access to businesses from the frontage roads
Johnny Paycheck
1:25 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
The lack of roundabouts was one of the main things making American roads superior to those in Europe. The drive I took across Germany last year was truly dizzying, where I drove for an hour straight through towns and villages without stopping, but constantly spinning around the roundabouts. I hope it does not end up like that here...
4:43 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
I am sure that the roundabout on Barker and North improves the traffic flow. What worries me is when I see our neighborhood children having to run across the street at the designated crosswalks to avoid being hit by a car. Pedestrians and busy roundabouts just don't mix.
9:18 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
That used to be a horrible intersection. However, my original point was that roundabouts are even less pedestrian friendly than stoplights. At least with a stoplight, cars are obliged to stop sometimes. It's very easy to overlook a pedestrian in a 'yield' crosswalk,especially when you're not expecting him or her to be there. As the recent accident at the Barker/North roundabout taught us.
Tom Kamenick
6:28 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
1) Of course they increase safety. That doesn't make them a good idea. We could save a LOT of lives by reducing the speed limits on highways to 25 MPH.
2) They sort of make sense for efficiency when people come from all 4 directions roughly equally. But where you have much heavier flow in two parallel directions, those two directions block up the people coming from the perpendicular streets, who have to sit and wait for an opening.
3) Roundabouts are AWFUL for pedestrian and bicycle traffic.
4) You can blame Jim Doyle's DOT for all of these.
10:45 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
You are funny. As a lawyer you should love the lawsuits they could generate. And you can also blame President Lincoln for the racial issues of today. Twit.
Tom Kamenick
6:30 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Oh and 5) I'm sick and tired of having to cater to the lowest common denominator. Why is so much of our traffic engineering centered around trying to make it easier for people who suck at driving?
Bob McBride
7:08 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Because they're driving over a ton of metal that can
become an out-of-control projectile in the time it takes to grope around for the french fry that fell between their thighs.
Evonne Zalewski
7:25 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
They make all the sense in the world. Greendale should have them at every intersection on Grange Avenue (except Loomis or 76th), at the south end of Broad, every intersection on 51st, almost every residential intersection that has 4 way stop now.
7:48 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Most European roads I have been on do not have such large semi trucks like one finds in the U.S.
8:39 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
I have been through many roundabouts here in southeastern wisconsin. Muskego, Waukesha, New Berlin, Racine, Milwaukee, even up in Oshkosh and I still don't get why people have such a hard time with them. I have even been through the 4 consecutive ones and I LOVE them, they get me where I want to go safely, quickly and without problem. Way better than sitting at a light. How are they confusing? The ones IN the circle have the right of way, be in the left lane to continue past an exit and the right lane to exit at the next opportunity. So simple and yet so many people can't do it. I am thinking most people view them as something they can continue to fly into and past instead of taking the time to slow down, accomodate someone's wish to change lanes and navigate properly. There is such a thing as taking turns in traffic scenarios! That is probably why some don't like them, they have to actually let someone else go first when all they want to do is cut people off and go, go, go. Heavily driven areas with high traffic volumes may be a different scenario, but I have yet to come upon a roundabout that could not be easily and safely navigated.
Uncle D
9:09 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
The Round-A-Bouts are just fine. It's the asses that bully their way through them that are the problem. I've found myself waiting a very long time to get on one because of the steady stream of traffic winding through them at 35-40mph. My God, you should have a window open and listen to the rubber squealing. It's universally 15 mph people!
Barbara Walters
9:26 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
We went to Denmark and England this summer an had to use roundabouts many many times, even going the opposite direction in England, and we had no problems. Signage is important and we had a GPS telling us step-by-step what to do but even in a foreign language we loved them. I don't understand all the controversy. Learn to use them and enjoy!
Bob McBride
9:54 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Those that like them seem to like them under ideal conditions: sparse traffic and everyone follows the rules. Under those conditions, almost any type of intersection is workable.
Based on what I see on a daily basis, a good number of drivers treat stop signs like yield signs and yield signs as uncontrolled intersections (or as an indication that they should gun it to get through the intersection because traffic coming to it from the left or right is unlikely to slow down). That they do little or nothing to control entry into a roundabout shouldn't really surprise anyone.
In terms of safety, any intersection where people follow the rules is more like to be a safe one as opposed to one where people don't. Likewise, any intersection that requires a hard stop, by it's nature, is probably going to be safer than one where people are able to just roll out into uncontrolled oncoming traffic, based on whether or not they think they can do so safely.
Nick Schweitzer
10:03 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
One of the features that I think most people don't take into account is that a Round About is not necessarily supposed to decrease the NUMBER of accidents, but to change the TYPE of accidents. If you look at it from a pure "number of accidents" standpoint, you'll likely see no change, or maybe even a slight increase.
The important part is that you turn potentially deadly head on or T-Bone style accidents into much less dangerous glancing type accidents, and at much lower speeds.
Tom Kamenick
10:10 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Sure. Let's drop highway speed limits to 25MPH, too, that'll decrease the severity of accidents!
10:10 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Again, even a low-speed hit in a crosswalk can kill or seriously injure a pedestrian or cyclist.
Steve ®
10:13 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Thank you socialist liberal democrats for trying to make us look like Europe. A country we left for more land and freedom. You and your car speed trains and roundabouts are a case study in failure and an abomination of spending.
Stop with the freaking roundabouts!
11:29 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Must we make this political? I really see nothing socialist versus capitalist when it comes to the choice between stoplights and roundabouts. I actually prefer stoplights that change from red to flashing amber late at night when traffic is sparse.
10:52 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Steve the Job Creator, I hope you will recall that our freeway system is the result of Eisenhower viewing the Autobahn. Our system is flawed because the Germans tested and understood driver fatigue and designed some driving environment shifts (curves, etc.) to ensure alertness. So if you and your employees drive on the freeway, don't forget to thank a European! ; )
Jill Lane
10:35 am on Monday, August 20, 2012
Yield upon entering roundabout and choose your exit. It's not complicated. (If you're in the roundabout you should not be stopping to let people in.)
5:08 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Modern Roundabouts have only four rules: 1. Slow down, 2. Yield to pedestrians, 3. yield to drivers already in the circular roadway, 4. signal your exit (keeps things moving). Signaling left until you're ready to exit might help some motorists not jump in front. At a multi-lane modern roundabout, like any other multi-lane intersection, motorists should watch for the lane use signs that tell you which lane to be in based on where you want to go. Like other complex intersections, sometimes only the left lane can turn left, sometimes it can turn left and go through, and some times it can go left, through or right. A lot simpler than signals and modern roundabouts work the same even when the power is out.
12:27 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Do Not Like Them. The ones on Moorland are horrible! Not an improvement. The one on Grange (west of Hwy 100) serves no purpose. It was never a busy area to begin with and 2 stop signs always did the job if you were turning onto grange. Instead of spending the money on Roundabouts why not use the funds to better staff the DOT? Get stoplights timed better? Replace missing street signs in the county (there are many that need it!). There is always work that needs attention....and ANYthing is better than putting more money towards roundabouts.
2:51 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Whether or not roundabouts are safer is not a matter of "belief" as the poll states. It's a matter of fact, according to multiple real world studies. Properly designed roundabouts virtually eliminate the possibility of a head-on collision or a T-bone. Studies show a decrease in fatal accidents at intersections of between 76% and 100%. They do a better job of managing traffic flow in busy areas, reducing wait times associated with stoplights. Frankly, every significant intersection that has the space to do so should be converted to a roundabout.
The roundabout solution would be particularly ideal for the Pilgrim - Appleton - Menomonee intersection. That is one huge problem, and I can't count how many times I have driven past crumpled cars (and one very unfortunate cyclist) there. What are the collision stats on that intersection? There is plenty of space to put one in, and the center island could be a great 'gateway' to the downtown area.
Tom Kamenick
2:56 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Agreed that this poll is poorly worded. They either are safer or they are not (although any study that finds a 100% decrease did not have a large enough sample size).
But a better question is whether or not you believe the increased safety is worth their downsides. As I've pointed out before, you could drastically reduce the number of highway deaths by making the speed limit 25 MPH.
Lisa D
3:06 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
I honestly think they should put one in downtown waukesha at the 5 points. That interscetion is crazy any time of day and at main and whiterock ave. You dont know how many times i have avoided being hit by moreons that dont stop and let the trafic from main turn on to whiterock.
Nancy Hall
3:48 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
I just returned from a week in New England...mostly Maine. I encountered a couple of roundabouts (or rotaries as they're called in NE) in Augusta that weren't bad, although the signage was strange. Each route number was accompanied by a diagram showing which lane to use and the pattern of travel. These little squiggles were way too complex for somebody approaching the rotary for the first time and attempting to travel through with traffic.
I also had to do some Boston driving. I drove through a couple of rotaries including one, the Bell Rotary near Logan, that was bisected by a road that went straight through. This one had traffic lights, thereby defeating the original purpose of the rotary. They stopped the rotary traffic so people on the straight road could drive through. It really defied logic.
I've done a lot of Boston driving. The rotaries there are treacherous. Some of the most dangerous intersections in Boston involve rotaries. There may be advantages to controlling intersections with rotaries, but safety is not among them.
4:50 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
so they want to put a roundabout in at 31 +32, however if you take those two intersections and the roudabout on K the last fatal accident was on K!
4:51 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
Modern roundabouts are the safest form of intersection in the world. Search IIHS for FAQs and safety facts.
NCHRP 572 was the most recent evaluation report.
Terryann Longo
11:49 pm on Monday, August 20, 2012
I believe modern roundabouts are safer once you get used to them :') At least someone is not going to hit you while they are speeding through a yellow light!\
5:37 am on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
It really depends. In some cases, they make perfect sense such as the one at North and Barker. That has made a huge positive impact on traffic there, especially in the morning. In other cases, it does nothing for traffic flow. Lastly, there are areas where they create a dangerous and problematic traffic situation such as I43 and Moreland. A thoughtful and reasoned approach is necessary when making the decision to build one.
Lex Parsimoniae
9:14 am on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
What local government (as well as Federal gvt.) seems to not understand, is that we ARE NOT Europe. It's not the roundabout, per se, it is the simple fact that any, and every, idiot with $400 in their pocket can (and usually does) have a car (or four). Maybe 10% of the population can handle situations, that are out of the ordinalry, without having to stop and assess what it is they are trying to accomplish. If everyone could handle the simple concept of a roundabout, they would be spectacular...but most Americans can't handle a straight road if it's raining, or snowing, or the sun is too bright. BTW, roundabouts and pedestrian crossings simply cannot coexist...they are the antithesis of each other.
T Van Parys
6:39 pm on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
I love the roundabouts...vastly more efficient than stupid, miss-timed stoplights. They'll run smoother once our slow-witted neighbors get them figured out.
7:00 pm on Tuesday, August 21, 2012
Born in England so grew up with these roundabouts, like most people say keeps traffic moving and just a side note if you are a tree hugger you should love these with no electricity being used and can even plant a garden in the middle.
Next thing Americans need to understand you use your directional signal when going around these roundabouts. Left directional signal, you show you are going around and the right signal when leaving the roundabout.
B.a. Liberski
12:03 pm on Wednesday, August 22, 2012
Roundabouts are a bad idea. Horse and buggy days they were pretty in old france, a hundred years ago. Now they waste time, signs like crazy, road paint that is worn off quickly and invisible during the winter. On the plus side they are better than what the DOT did with the Michel interchange. You have to go right to go left, left to go right and if the traffic is snarled you end up in the wrong lane and 20 minutes get added to your commute. Billions wasted. Chicago sucks but it is now better than here. Milwaukee will have road destruction forever, just like Chicago.
1:36 pm on Thursday, August 23, 2012
If they are about safery at dangerous intersections why are thee three consecutive round abouts just outside Milton one of which is not even an intersection. That's right, just a round about no other road going into it. Even if they build another road leading into it how do they know it's going to be dangerous? As far has traffic flow I've had to stop numerous times at them to allow cars from the left to go by, so the idea that you don't have to stop at them is not really true. Maybe they're worthwhile at some intersections, but I think some communites are going overboard.
7:57 pm on Saturday, August 25, 2012
go to Oshkosh - two on one side of the freeway at 9th avenue and 3 on the other side - try having time to determine what lane you need to be in to get on the freeway


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You could easily spend months in Rajasthan. The state's southwestern corner centers on Udaipur, a hilly town of palaces and artificial lakes, with the nearby hill station of Mount Abu, while central Rajasthan is anchored by Jodhpur, home to a glorious fort and the eye-catching blue houses of the Brahmin caste. Jaipur, the state capital, is in the east, toward Delhi. Western Rajasthan, largely given over to the Thar Desert, can best be explored via camel or jeep from the golden city of Jaisalmer. In the northeast, between Jaipur and Delhi, the Shekhawati region is home to lovely painted havelis, the mansions of prosperous merchants. The southern and eastern regions also have a number of good wildlife parks.
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In Whatever Works, out on DVD this week, Patricia Clarkson plays Marietta, mother to the 21-year-old Melodie (Evan Rachel Wood) who marries the curmudgeonly Boris (Larry David). Clarkson's character comes to New York intent on ending her daughter's marriage ... and then makes a radical lifestyle change.
Whatever Works is Clarkson's second appearance in a Woody Allen movie, having played an unhappily married housewife in 2008's Vicky Cristina Barcelona. On the next Secret's Out, Clarkson talks with Leonard Maltin about how she got started working with Allen.
Tune in for the Secret's Out premiere on Friday, December 11, at 6:30 PM ET/ 3:30 PM PT. Or catch one of its encore showings.
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UPDATED Opinions differ on evidence in Jeffrey Pyne trial
Differing opinions on evidence were brought to the forefront of the Jeffrey Pyne trial during testimony Thursday morning.
A tense exchange between Pyne's defense attorney, James Champion, and Oakland County Sheriff's Detective David Hendrick, led to Hendrick agreeing with Champion that there is no specific evidence that directly links Pyne to the murder of his mother, Ruth Pyne.
Champion asked a question along those lines three times.
"I would say the evidence there links someone to this crime, yes," Hendrick first said in response to the question.
Champion continued to press Hendrick for a specific answer on evidence that directly links someone to the crime, and Hendrick eventually agreed that there was not a specific piece of evidence to directly link anyone to Ruth Pyne's death.
In subsequent questioning from Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor John Skrzynski, Hendrick explained why the evidence points to Jeffrey Pyne, noting, specifically, the condition of the home following the death.
"The home is secure (when emergency responders arrive)," Hendrick said.
"The front door is deadbolted closed. All the other entry points are closed. There is no sign of forced entry."
That means anyone without a key to the home would have had to leave through the pedestrian garage door, Hendrick said. Ruth Pyne's 10-year-old daughter opened that door over Ruth Pyne's bloody hand when she discovered her around 2:30 p.m. May 27, 2011, and the door remained over her hand, midway up her forearm, when emergency responders arrived.
"I don't believe that door was ever opened prior to (Ruth Pyne's) hand being dry," Hendrick said, adding that blood on her hand would have been smeared or wiped off if someone had opened the door shortly after killing her. Continued...
"The killer would have had to exit through the other doors in the home, which were locked and secured," Hendrick said.
"The only other person who was in the home at the time, by his own admission, was Jeff."
Hendrick also said that, in his experience, "a random act doesn't involve an excessive amount of injuries."
After a break for lunch, testimony focused primarily on DNA extracted from hairs found on Ruth Pyne's hand and taken from her head.
Mitotyping Technologies, based in State College, Pa., performed Mitochondrial DNA testing on the hairs.
Investigators submitted 42 hairs for testing, but with a testing cost of about $2,500 per hair, lab technicians selected a few hairs to be tested.
Mitochondrial DNA testing shows results only along maternal lines. Results showed that neither Ruth Pyne nor Jeffrey Pyne could be excluded as donors, nor could any of Ruth Pyne's relatives who share her maternal line of DNA. Testing showed 99.94 percent of North Americans would not have that DNA profile.
Sheriff's Office Detective Jerry DeRosia, who performed forensic testing on cell phones belonging to the Pynes, was the final witness of the day.
DeRosia said Jeffrey Pyne's call log showed no incoming calls, something DeRosia described as very unusual.
"I don't remember ever seeing phones without any information on those logs," DeRosia said. Continued...
"It's highly suspecting, in my opinion."
The trial will resume at 8:30 a.m. Friday in front of Oakland County Circuit Judge Leo Bowman.
Contact staff writer Dave Phillips at 248-745-4631 or firstname.lastname@example.com. Follow him on Twitter @dave_phillips1.
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Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions (Read 271 times)
Mickey Yarber
Posts: 1370
Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Dec 23
, 2012, 10:45pm
Southwest Championship Wrestling
December 25, 1982
HemisFair Arena, San Antonio TX
Sanctioned by the AWA
Steve Stack stood center ring to welcome everyone to tonight's show, and said the three quarterfinal matches in the Southwest Tag Team Title Tournament will begin things.
Match 1:
The Fabulous Blondes vs. Ricky Romero & Al Perez.....winner faces Jose Lothario and Tully Blanchard in the semi-finals
The Blondes were their usual cocky selves, and as a team that has been together for a while, they displayed great tag wrestling. The experience of Romero, and the youth and fire of Perez though kept them in the match. It was a miscue by the good guys that led to their downfall though, as Romero missed a dropkick that allowed Timbs to capitalize and nail him with a knee drop to the throat while he was down. From there, the Blondes worked him over and finished him with a rocket launcher with Embry being pressed from the top rope by Timbs onto Romero for the pin at 14:29.
Match 2:
The Fantastics vs. Johnny Mantell & The Hangman
Mantell and Hangman were bent on trying every dirty trick in the book, but The Fantastics are a solid young team, and weathered the storm and finished off The Hangman with a double dropkick for the pin at 15:32. After the match, Mantell tried to hand Rogers with the bullrope, but Bobby Fulton saved him from any real damage.
Match 3:
The Galaxians vs. Hector & Mando Guerrero
The quick Galaxians, Alpha and Beta proved to be quite the test for the seasoned Guerreros as they matched them move for move, and hold for hold. It was quite an aerial duel too as both teams utilized several top rope moves. In the end though, Hector caught Beta with a flying head scissors that put him in perfect position for Mando to nail him with his back flip body press from the top rope at 13:03.
Match 4: TV Title Contenders Battle Royal
- The final two men will meet on tv next week to determine the champion. The entrants are:
"Mr. Wonderful" Paul Orndorff, Magic Dragon, Charlie Cook, Pat Rose, Tito Santana, "Outlaw" Butch Beckler, Gary Young, Killer Karl Krupp, RT Tyler, Tiger Conway Jr., "King" Carl Fergie, Al Greene, Roberto Soto, Mil Mascaras, and Manny Fernandez
The action, as you can imagine, was fast paced as all 15 men really want the chance at the tv title. It was wild and hard to call, but when the eliminations started, they came fast and furious. Order of eliminations:
1. Butch Beckler, courtesy of Charlie Cook
2. Roberto Soto by Paul Orndorff
3. Magic Dragon by Tito Santana
4. RT Tyler by Pat Rose
5. Pat Rose by Mil Mascaras
6. Al Greene by Paul Orndorff
7. Gary Young by Manny Fernandez
8. Killer Karl Krupp by Manny Fernandez
9. Charlie Cook by Carl Fergie
10. Mil Mascaras by Orndorff & Fergie
11. Manny Fernandez by Tito and Conway
At the 10 minute mark, we were down to the final four of Orndorff, Tito, Fergie, and Conway. They paired off in opposite corners and were going at it. Conway had Fergie on the verge of elimination on one side, while Orndorff and Tito had each other close to elimination on the other side. Tito tossed Orndorff out and went to help Conway. Orndorff landed on the floor on a side of the ring where there was no referee, so he quickly slid back into the ring. Tito and Conway got Fergie out to the floor, and thought the match was over and both raised their hands. Orndorff charged in behind Tito and drilled him with a knee to the back that put Tito up and over to the floor. The referee's called for the bell, signaling that Orndorff and Conway are the last two men remaining. When Tito realized what was happening, he pleaded his case to the referees that Orndorff had already been eliminated, but they wouldn't change their decision. A livid Tito got at Orndorff in the ring, and the two of them engaged in a pull apart until Conway and several referees got control of the situation. Total time of match was 12:34.
Match 5: Tournament Semi-Final
Jose Lothario & Tully Blanchard vs. The Fabulous Blondes
Much like on tv, the team of Lothario and Blanchard never seemed on the same page. Tully was in for a little while early on, but The Blondes managed to isolate Lothario and work him over for a great while. Lothario got his second wind and battled back. Tully begged for the tag, but Lothario was on fire. He didn't go for the tag and went for the win with a Thesz press on Embry, but Timbs came off the top rope with a knee across the back of Lothario. Embry rolled over on top of him for the three count at 15:38.
Tully was livid after the match, and wanted to know why Jose didn't tag him. Lothario still seemed dazed. Tully gave up his case and helped Lothario up and started helping him out of the ring, but suddenly leveled Jose with a clothesline. He then picked up Jose and delivered his slingshot suplex to his partner. The crowd was stunned, but quickly started booing as Tully left the ring alone.
Match 6: Tournament Semi-Final:
The Fantastics vs. The Guerreros
It was a mat classic, as both baby face teams wrestled a scientific match. The end came when Mando went for his back flip press, but Fulton rolled out of the way and Mando crashed hard on the mat. Fulton quickly gave him an Oklahoma roll and cradled him for the pin at 13:18.
Match 7:
Abdullah the Butcher vs. Bruiser Brody
The two men engaged in a wild brawl that ended in a double countout at 7:28 when both men were fighting on the floor. The fight didn't end with the bell though, as they continued to battle their way all the way back to the locker room.
Match 8: Southwest Heavyweight Title Match
Blackjack Mulligan vs. The Spoiler
Mulligan and Spoiler fought each other to a stand still mostly, with BJM barely having an advantage. It went back and forth until Mulligan finally got the upper hand. He worked over Spoiler, and got in position for his lariat. He delivered it with such force, that it knocked Spoiler back in to the referee who took a hard bump, and the momentum of BJM carried him out through the ropes to the floor. The ref was down, Spoiler was down, and BJM was down on the floor. When BJM started getting back up, Tully Blanchard came to ringside and started verbally abusing him for giving up the tag team belts. He slapped BLM! Mulligan was stunned, but Tully picked him up, and ran him head first into the ring post! BJM was busted open. Tully then rammed him into the post again to knock him out. He then lifted up BJM's limp body and rolled him into the ring. Spoiler came around, and saw Mulligan laying there, so he went over and applied his brain claw. The referee revived and crawled over and counted Mulligan's shoulders down for the winning pinfall at 19:40. The Spoiler is the new Southwest Heavyweight Champion.
While Mulligan was still down, Tully came into the ring with the house microphone and cut a promo on BJM saying that he was a selfish hog, that BJM didn't know what friendship was. He said that Mulligan cost him his tag team titles, so now he has cost Mulligan the Southwest belt. He threw the mic down and spit on a prone BJM before leaving to a huge chorus of boos.
Match 9: Southwest Tag Team Titles - Tournament Final
The Fabulous Blondes vs. The Fantastics
The Blondes were very cocky as they faced the younger Fantastics. While the Blondes employed a lot of great tag wrestling, the Fantastics have been together for a while and are no slouches either, and dished out a lot of quick tags and double team moves themselves. The match was back and forth for a while, but The Blondes slowly turned the tide in their favor. First, they worked over Fulton for a while, but he managed to escape their corner and make the tag, but Rogers faired no better as the Blondes punished him for an extended period too. The former champs seemed ready to claim the belts again. They started show boating and taking their time setting up their moves and taunting the fans. Timbs picked up Rogers for a body slam and paraded around the ring before planting him. He applauded himself, and got set to do it again. This time while carrying him around the ring, Bobby Fulton rushed in and dropkicked his own partner in the back and caused him to land on top of Timbs in a pinning predicament! Rogers hooked Timbs leg, and Fulton held off Embry just long enough for Rogers to get the pinfall out of no where at 35:17 for the tag team titles! The fans came unglued and poped big time for the win! The Blondes were in disbelief as the Fantastics celebrated on the floor with the belts and the fans. Winners and new Southwest Tag Team Champions, The Fantastics!
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Southwest Championship Wrestling presents The Texas Cup tournament, May 4th & 5th 1983 in Galveston TX and San Antonio TX. Watch SCW TV on the USA Network or a station near you for details!
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Posts: 2914
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #1 -
Dec 24
, 2012, 11:23am
Great card! The night Tully went bad was probably the headline in the sports section...Congrats to the Fantastics and Spoiler.
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Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience!
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Mickey Yarber
Posts: 1370
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #2 -
Dec 24
, 2012, 11:49am
After reading the World Class and PNW Christmas shows and commenting that the right people went over up and down their cards, I realized something about my own show. Christmas night may not have been the best time to turn one of the top baby faces heel and have him beat up their beloved Jose Lothario and cost BJM the title. Probably left a very sour taste in their mouths on what should be a joyous and happy occassion. Hopefully the Fantastics claiming the belts at the end of the night saved things, I don't know.
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Southwest Championship Wrestling presents The Texas Cup tournament, May 4th & 5th 1983 in Galveston TX and San Antonio TX. Watch SCW TV on the USA Network or a station near you for details!
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Watts fan
Posts: 1001
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #3 -
Dec 24
, 2012, 12:46pm
Terrific card. Tully turning on Jose is one Christmas the fans won't forget.
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Posts: 7860
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #4 -
Dec 24
, 2012, 1:19pm
I always think the deal is what are the fans talking about as they walk back to the cars. Did they get their money's worth or do they feel cheated? The fans will remember what happened, as being the might the true Tully shone through. They will be back to see him get throtled. By Mulligan or Lothario, it doesn't matter. I feel sorry for Tito but I want to yell hooray for Tiger. Kudos to The Fantastics.
Great stuff.
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Posts: 1223
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #5 -
Dec 25
, 2012, 8:30pm
Great tournament with some top notch tag team talent. I would have loved Muligan and the Spoiler, two of my all time favorites.
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Posts: 478
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #6 -
Dec 26
, 2012, 4:03pm
Great work, a good card with the Fantastics making things right. As far as Tully & Lothario goes, heck, I set my clock on that as soon as the Tully/BJM thing started! Christmas being the date is good for the shock factor being bigger IMO.
And, good switching gears with the TV and TT drama overlapping well. I enjoy visiting the land of the armadillos - you do very well at making some surprising guys feel very competitive. Fergie AND Tiger Jr. in the final BR four worked as an example. Keeps me very interested.
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Check your local television listings and tune in to Maple Leaf Wrestling's "Superstars of Wrestling" every week
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psycho hillbilly
Posts: 861
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #7 -
Dec 26
, 2012, 8:31pm
Tully as a face was the only negative in an otherwise outstanding promotion. Blanchard was one of the great heel and it's tough for most of us to see him as anything else.
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The artist formerly known as Grigs.
THIS is the ultimate test of a fantasy wrestling writer, you have been thrown the ultimate monkey wrench, now go forth, my son, and BOOK!
-El Topo
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Posts: 1629
Re: Southwest Christmas Night Show New Champions
Reply #8 -
Dec 27
, 2012, 4:47pm
Tully as the spoiled brat heel against his dad is gold. Sure that Mr. Yarber will take said fastball and knock it over the fence.
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"Johnny Ace probally shows Vince McMahon how to ride a skateboard and if Triple H ever saw it he'd want to come to the ring with one and Vince would push for John Cena to ride one to the ring and get a cheap pop" Cornette on Johnny Ace
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