Why Don't Smartphones Have A "Guest Mode"? - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/04/why-dont-smartphones-have-a-guest-mode/ <comment><USER2> Somewhat related: I've long wondered why ATM cards don't have something similar.

1234 is my regular PIN. 1235 is my help I'm being robbed PIN -- it dispenses the cash, calls the cops, and tags the video.

<comment><USER3> My girlfriend worked at bank that did this. The alert PIN was your PIN backwards. I don't know if they still do this or not.

<comment><USER4> I heard about this before. According to Snopes it's false although it may have been implemented in A few places.

<http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/pinalert.asp>

<http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATM_SafetyPIN_software>

<comment><USER5> Thanks for the wiki article. I've heard about it and was pretty sure it's a hoax (mostly because of the palindromes).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm more bewildered to why no tablets seem to have multi-user functionality. In my experience, tablets get shared far more often than phones.

<comment><USER7> I work for a tablet manufacturer, and I spoke to an Android product manager at I/O last year about this.

According to him, this is a feature that pops up once in awhile, but they have a long list of stuff to do and this is just one of those things that always gets bumped out.

From my perspective as a platform dev, I'd like to get into some of the technical problems with changing this, but I could end up breaking some NDAs or something. I'll just say, when you start mucking around with adding login code, file system changes, and the current dmcrypt encryption, you hit lots of fun design problems.

<comment><USER8> There are two your account and the hidden root account ;)

<comment><USER9> I think the concerns are the interactions between user accounts. I don't think anyone is too worried about the hidden root account having access to your user account data.

<comment><USER10> Hence the winky face.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> wh-uws These guys are kind of working in this: <http://www.famigo.com/>

Their approach is targeted at kids though, I'd love to see someone tackle the general purpose approach.

Sounds like a great project for someone with a lot of free time. I rememeber hearing that the guy who came up with what is currently the ios notification style was hired by Apple after his jailbroken hack.

The void is wide open for someone to solve this well and be rewarded for it

<comment><USER11> I have heard many, many times from parents whose kids play with their iPhones, iPads, etc. that they would like to have this mode where only the current app is active, WiFi is disabled, etc. Kids are quick to figure out how to buy extra stuff from within the app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> "Why Don't Smartphones Have A Guest Mode?"

Because dealing with multiple profiles and/or different profile types is a fucking huge giant pain the ass and a monumental amount of work! Xbox has local, guest, live silver, and live gold accounts. Dealing with all the different profiles and switching between is a nightmare. Urgh, no thanks.

<comment><USER13> At least two of the three most prominent smart phone roms are backed by operating systems that have long histories of (more or less successful) profile switching. It might in fact be a difficult problem, but it's one that has serviceable solutions and has for some time.

<comment><USER14> No, difficult for the _users_ , not the operating systems.

Operating systems have had user switching for years. But I'll bet only a small minority of Mac users even know this is possible, and even fewer have ever used it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The "two PINs" idea would also be great for when a police officer pulls you over and asks you to hand over and unlock your phone. With the proper encryption you could even have plausible deniability.

<comment><USER16> Haven't people suggested this with regards to TrueCrypt's hidden volumes, with "rubber-hose cryptography" being the most common answer, and "yeah, well, prove that this is your REAL phone unlock code" being the second most common.

<comment><USER17> Prove that it isn't, officer.

<comment><USER18> No cellphones are allowed in top secret military locations in the US, because all can be remotely signalled to start recording audio. We know they'll turn a phone into a bug if they need to, so it's foolish to assume they wouldn't be able to get the real PIN.

<comment><USER19> Do you have any evidence that indicates that this is the reason?

A much more likely explanation for the policy involves abuse by the user, either intentionally or unintentionally. Cameras and USB sticks are similarly restricted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is also why any app that handles sensitive information (including, arguably, the photo and video galleries) on a phone should have at least the _option_ to set an in-app PIN that's required before it opens up.

Lots of folks hand their smartphone to their kids to play games and even if there's nothing sensitive on there, they might have things they don't want deleted like treasured photos and videos.

<comment><USER21> Hell, I'd be happy if iOS had a way to lock down the Springboard so my kids can't screw up my home screen every time they get their hands on a device. Does anyone else come back to find all their apps dragged into countless random folders?

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> there are at least a few big companies already doing virtualization with android to separate business and personal modes so that corporate email and other apps can be quarantined off with a secure password, leaving personal email and games to run in a separate environment that may not require as much security to unlock.

presumably the same technology could be used to provide "normal" and guest environments.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydXJjCN2G-A>

</comment><comment><USER23> I'd benefit from a "Driving Mode" on my phone. If John, Rachel, or Stan calls, auto-text them: "I'm driving, can't talk". Everyone else goes straight to voicemail. If they send me a text within 5 minutes of that call (must be serious), make the font huge so I can read it in .5 seconds on my console. Hide all other texts.

I'd like to be truly responsible and just turn my phone off, but I don't to allow for those few times when there actually is something important.

<comment><USER24> Siri is already the "Driving Mode" feature on the iPhone.

Hooking it up to the stereo system makes it feel like it is part of the vehicle. Some day, when I am feeling adventurous, I will wire the otherwise useless OnStar button to trigger it to complete the "factory look."

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> HTC Sense has something called modes - which allow you to put your phone in profiles that switch data off, or the keyboard off, etc. They recently acquired Inquisitive Minds for a "kids mode" ([http://www.androidguys.com/2011/10/18/htc-acquires- inquisiti...](http://www.androidguys.com/2011/10/18/htc-acquires-inquisitive- minds-developer-of-zoodles/)) which is pretty much guest mode.

</comment><comment><USER26> Ironically, Arrington still "writes" for Techcrunch

<https://twitter.com/#!/arrington/status/27763718700>

<comment><USER27> The tweet seems quite old, though: "9:43 PM - 18 Oct 10"

<comment><USER26> that was my point, he tweeted this long ago, while he was _in_ TC, and yet, his voice is echoed...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Web browsers have been around since 92, first usable guest mode [1] on a web browser appeared 2005 or so. Give the phones a little more time, and it will get there too.

[1] mozilla had multiple profile support since forever, but it required you to restart the browser with a command line argument, or requires you to pick a profile _every time_ , and even then it's not "guest" profile -- it's another profile with history and all. When I needed multiple profiles, it was always easier to set up another user on Linux. [On windows, at least in the 2000 days, the new browser would defer to the old one that was already on screen even if they were RunAs different users -- a different "desktop session" was required for separation. bleh]

</comment><comment><USER29> I was going to write a tweak for iOS to do something like this, with behavior similar to that of the built in Camera shortcut from the lockscreen.

1\. You are using an app

2\. You activate 'Guest mode' using a button press, swipe, tap, etc. (configurable)

3\. If the user hits the home button, it redirects to the lockscreen instead of the homescreen (much like the Camera application does in lock-mode)

4\. Instead of the camera icon on the lockscreen when you double tap, it is the icon of the locked-in application. (You can tap it to resume use of the locked-in application)

5\. To disable this guest mode, you simply unlock the device with your passcode.

So, when a friend asks "Hey can I check my email?", you can open Safari, enable this guest mode, and hand the phone to him, no worries.

What do you think?

<comment><USER30> > So, when a friend asks "Hey can I check my email?", you can open Safari, > enable this guest mode, and hand the phone to him, no worries.

can you provide a sandboxed environment? he can't have access to any of my persistent Safari data (autofill/bookmarks/history/cookies/dbs/etc.), and any he creates should be wiped, probably on return to the lockscreen. all other forms of app switching (e.g. open a pdf url, then "open in" iBooks/goodReader/whatever) will need to be blocked as well. will also have to block the app tray, the notification center, pop-up/banner notifications, Siri, and possibly the phone. (could experiment with blocking badges and alerts but not sounds, since that only reveals the fact that an email/text/etc. was received, not any specific information about it.) might conceivably need to block all background app network traffic, tho i'm not sure if that's snoopable from inside safari.

basically os x guest mode

<comment><USER29> That would be the only issue with something like this. The number of system features is finite and they can be disabled each in their own respect, but partitioning a guest from a user's data in an arbitrary application would prove challenging.

<comment><USER30> yeah, by the time i got to the end of the list, it was pretty clear how hard it would be to do it right....

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Yes, yes from a guy who has to nervously hope that as his Dad looks up something on his phone while having family dinner, he doesn't end up in my SMS or Photos app. It'd ruin the dinner. And some.

</comment><comment><USER32> As far as I'm concerned the only 'Guest Mode' I need on my phone is the emergency call screen. I'm totally willing to be the 'weirdo' who won't let someone use his phone.

<comment><USER33> I was thinking of something related to this earlier today. One thing I'd really like from the emergency call screen is to allow me to tag several of my contacts as emergency contacts. That way if my phone is stolen, or I am hurt in an accident, the list of proper people to notify is very apparent.

<comment><USER34> Yeah, the old ICE contact.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> The reason I don't log on someone else's phone is not because they don't want me to, is because I don't want to! Just the same reason why I usually don't log in on an untrusted computer.

Maybe just for browsing the internet it would be allright, but I won't hand over my passwords. Isn't there any keylogger yet for android/ios? You don't even need to go by the store/marketplace, just local, developper stuff and there you go. Do you want to log on my machine?

</comment><comment><USER36> Smartphones seem to have mostly sacrificed some of their security for convenience.

Take Windows for example, sure you _can_ setup multiple user accounts with different levels of privilege , access to website and apps etc but how many people outside of a corporate or academic setting actually _use_ this?

Whenever I borrow someones laptop they just use their own login, sometimes I find porn in their Internet history but at the end of the day who cares?

Perhaps this is more of a problem for people with kids who might want to use the internet themselves but when their child uses it they don't want them to have access to certain sites or see that their parent has accessed certain sites.

One issue I have with android is that when I clear the history in the browser and delete all cookie etc etc.

If I hit the back button it still goes _back_ to whatever I visited last , also if I goto google and tap the search bar all my previous searches come up. It's not really very privacy friendly.

Hopefully this problem will pass once everyone has a smartphone so they don't need to borrow someone elses.

<comment><USER37> My girlfriend and I both have logins on each other's laptops, so that we can both have our apps set up the way we like them. With bookmarks and history syncing between them, this makes life much easier.

<comment><USER36> It does, I have multiple logins for my PC including a guest one.

Most people don't seem to really understand the benefit of doing this though, I've seen couples argue because they both keep changing preferences on a shared computer when multiple logins would solve their problems.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Users can, when choosing the right ROM.. hooray for choice!

Guest mode: enable the "Guest Mode" toggle in the panel, and your calls and text messages logs will be hidden, and all installed applications cannot be removed. You may have a try when you need to show your phone to guests or children.

<http://en.miui.com/a-10.html>

</comment><comment><USER39> The guest mode is a great idea. But for now, if you have very private stuff on your Android phone, you can lock down on an app-per-app basis. This could be a little inconvenient, though, and either you always keep them password protected, or you have to remember to protect them before you give the phone to someone.

</comment><comment><USER40> This is something I've wondered quite a bit also. ChromeOS already has this feature -- it's the idea of the device simply acting as a terminal, with all user data stored in the cloud.

Also, I'm a bit afraid implementing full-featured multiple user sessions (similar to a desktop OS) would lead to a lot more bloat.

</comment><comment><USER41> Seems like Apple is planning to implement multi-user mode in iOS with face recognition based login ie a user just enter his PIN, however, the camera detects which account to load. (IMHO, more secure than the current Android implementation) Article talking about related patent: [http://www.cultofmac.com/137393/apple-patent-details- facial-...](http://www.cultofmac.com/137393/apple-patent-details-facial- recognition-plans-for-macs-ios-devices/)

I would imagine at that time, they might support Guest logins.

EDIT: the implementation detail of Face recognition talked above is my own take on how it should be done. Not suggested by the referenced article.

</comment><comment><USER42> VMWare has virtualization working on Android, which supports this in a heavy- weight kind of way. See [http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/vmware-android- handset-vi...](http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/vmware-android-handset- virtualization-hands-on/) and [http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/09/samsung- boosts-...](http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/09/samsung-boosts- vmware-plan-to-virtualize-android-phones-tablets.ars)

The use-case for it usually suggested is one VM for work, one for personal use, but it could be used for this scenario too.

</comment><comment><USER43> [http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/10/07/Robot- Road...](http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/10/07/Robot-Road#p-1)

Quote: Which has revealed a feature that the Tab needs: a button in Gmail called "in strange hands". The device is profoundly shareable, but mine has my Google email, full of threads that are distinctly not for public eyes. So I need to switch to disable that while letting people look at interesting web sites or play games or check stock prices or whatever. End Quote

</comment><comment><USER44> On Android there is an app called "Hide it Pro" [1] (aka Audio Manager) that allows you to hide pictures and videos. The app disguises itself as an audio manager in the app drawer. To access the hidden files you have to type a PIN code. There is also an escape PIN if you get caught hiding files. Clever idea.

[1] [https://market.android.com/details?id=com.smartanuj.hideitpr...](https://market.android.com/details?id=com.smartanuj.hideitpro)

</comment><comment><USER45> i love that almost everything in this thread would be added shortly if we had control of our phones. why isnt there a bigger open hardware phone movement? how about a new GPLv4? GPLed software can only be shipped on GPLed hardware. it can be installed later but the user gets to see an ad explaining what they cannot do with their phone, and possibly alternate carriers that support open hardware.

</comment><comment><USER46> I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Guest account too, but mainly other user accounts. Not for phones but for tablets, these tend to get shared more - there's a way to have multiple user accounts on iPad but this requires jailbreaking, something I'm not too fond of. It'd be nice that each family member can use their own instances of mail and safari etc...

</comment><comment><USER47> The MIUI rom for Android sort of does this. It has a privacy mode which hides calls and text messages and locks down the homescreen.

</comment><comment><USER48> I would take this one step further and have smartphones/tablets with cloud based "login" for your accounts, apps, preferences etc. While you would probably only use it a few times a year it would be great when getting a new phone, swapping phones with friends to try them out or to borrow a phone if you are out of juice.

</comment><comment><USER49> Interesting idea, but I don't see many use cases.

Are people really handing their phones out that often?

I only hand my phone to someone else when:

* I've asked them to take a photo of me.

* They're riding shotgun in my car and need to call a contact or navigate with info readily available on my phone.

Neither situation is risk for people snooping around.

<comment><USER50> It happens to me often enough. Maybe it's just if you have friends who are interested in gadgets, but they will usually say things like, "Oh, you got a new phone? Can I see it?", "Oh, you installed a new ROM? Can I see it?", "Oh, I was wondering how this worked on that phone, can I try it on yours?" All of these are generic requests that just involve tapping around a lot to get a feel for the device, and they're all totally valid requests that one wants to fulfill to help his friends experience more stuff.

Also, some people just don't consider their phones private and don't understand why anyone else would. My parents or siblings sometimes want to flip through Gallery to see the newest pictures of my children, friends, or co-workers.

A couple misplaced photos can be quite the liability in a situation like that...

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Guest Mode has already been requested by many people: <http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=7472>

</comment><comment><USER52> Probably for the same reason a lot of other good features don't get implemented: there are higher more impactful features to be implemented first, a bigger bang for the company's buck.

</comment><comment><USER53> And this is why me and my family get way more use out of a Chromebook rather than our Android tablet.

Please make Android grow multi-user capabilities or give me ChromeOS in a tablet format.

</comment><comment><USER54> ...and this is why developers should never be in charge of usability/design.

simplification enhances usability. the vast majority of smartphone and tablet users are _happy_ that all that complicated IT/nerd stuff went away on their devices.

the complications you would introduce by user switching are big. you need to add UI elements to tell the user at all times in which mode they are, you need new dialogs to switch, etc etc. the android status bar already looks like a badly maintained win xp install with all that crap in it.

built by developers for developers. brrr.

</comment><comment><USER55> The idea sounds awesome... but how many on us even have the guest account enabled on our laptops?

</comment><comment><USER56> Why don't computers have a "party mode"? (locking everything but youtube and spotify).

</comment><comment><USER57> My Mac has a guest mode, but I never use it. Do you?

<comment><USER58> Every time I have guests at the house that want to use the computer for some reason. That's what it's for -- why _not_ use it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Better yet, why hasn't anyone created an app that just _simulates_ a guest mode? A launcher with two sets of home screens would be perfect. _Or_ , you just disable your preferred launcher when handing your phone to a friend, revealing the mostly barren stock screens. It's as simple as hiding icons, since the apps might as well not exist if the icons aren't there (access doesn't actually need to be explicitly forbidden, per se).

Maybe I'm missing something important here, but it seems many apps on the Android market are just a few tweaks away from doing this already?

<comment><USER60> Not all games have a separation of user data. Some games basically only have one save slot, so that starting a new game wipes out the save data.

<comment><USER61> This caused me to be beat upside the head with a Gameboy repeatedly when I was young when I hit "new game" on my cousin's Pokemon Red.

<comment><USER62> If you were my cousin who did that to me, you wouldn't exist today, to put it lightly.

<comment><USER63> This was done to me by cousins and brothers maybe 4-5 times (with very well developed games before each time). I understand the frustration (although what you describe sounds a bit full on) particularly as I'm pretty sure you had to start a new game then save.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Hell, I want a guest mode on my computer. Instead I need to just have netbooks available for when company wants to check their email.

<comment><USER65> What kind of computer do you have that doesn't have a guest mode? Windows, Mac/UNIX and Linux have all been multi-user either from the beginning or for decades.

<comment><USER64> Yeah, but then I have to have a "guest" log-in. My computers are always on, so people never feel bad about asking to use them, and I feel it's unnecessary and unsmooth to log out.

Since I've already been perfectly demanding|whining about a feature I'd like to have, what I _really_ want is to just click a program that boots up a vm with the same OS, but only the browser ready to go with a fresh lack of cookies, history, etc.

IS THAT REALLY SO MUCH TO ASK? </overdramatic>

<comment><USER37> why would you log out?

In Windows you'd hit Windows-L, which would take you to the login screen, and then they'd click "Guest" (or whatever alternate login you've set up). You'd still be logged in, and when they were done (or were giving it back to you for five minutes) you press Windows-L again and choose your own login to switch back to your still-running programs.

I'd be astounding if Linux didn't have an equivalent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> a phone in guest mode would be totally useless.

case 1: no apps. guest has to install apps. will guest have a itunes/android market account? does he enter his Credit card to buy paid ones he want to use?

case 2: apps with no data from real user. He opens up foursquare/yelp to look for a restaurant... has to create profile

<comment><USER19> Looking at the mocked-up screenshots in the article, he's proposing that the user customize which apps are available. Note "Configure Guest Access" in Settings.app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> For the guy with friends that he doesn't trust. Actually, for the guy who _thinks_ he has friends.

</comment><comment><USER68> Privacy is important. But why not just avoid keeping weird stuff on your phone? Keep it somewhere else. Or say, "hold on let me log out of my bank app" or something.

<comment><USER69> >keep it somewhere else

Where? Keep my naked girlfriend pics in a recipe box? Wtf are you even saying?

I'd rather not turn into a dull prude just because apple is too lazy to implement a guest account on their unix OS.

I'm trying to imagine how dull and colorless your life must be. I took the pictures with my phone. The obvious place to keep them is on my phone.

<comment><USER68> So the civil answer to my question "why not just avoid keeping weird stuff on your phone?"

is: "I keep naked girlfriend pics on my iPhone. I don't think that's weird, but I don't want someone to see them."

I see your point. I apologize for using the word "weird." I assume that's what the downvotes were for.

<comment><USER69> Civil answers are overrated. I'm really sick of corporate leaders (e.g. You) telling me I should change my life to suit them. Their job is to accommodate the customer regardless of how weird my hobbies may be.

<comment><USER68> "corporate leaders (e.g. You)"

I'm honored, and confused, that you would consider me a corporate leader.

Like I said, I see your point. And if you look at my comment, it was in the form of a question, not an imperative.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Reverse Engineering Apple Location Services Protocol - <AUTHOR> https://appelsiini.net/2017/reverse-engineering-location-services/ <comment><USER2> That was at the core of the "locationgate" a few years ago because location of surrounding access point wasn't flushed enough regularly. Hence revealing approximate location to people that can materially access the phone (this was before iOS full disk encryption). See: [http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple- breaks-its-silence-on-l...](http://allthingsd.com/20110427/apple-breaks-its- silence-on-location-gate-plans-to-ship-white-iphone-on-thursday/)

And by today standard I really appreciate Apple approach of doing most of the computation on the phone itself.

</comment><comment><USER3> Huh, apparently this is a rediscovery: [https://github.com/microg/NetworkLocation/blob/master/Networ...](https://github.com/microg/NetworkLocation/blob/master/NetworkLocation/protos- repo/apple_loc.proto)

also I'm wondering, is there a client for that location services protocol that works on linux?

</comment><comment><USER4> Although it looks like all the interesting content is in the protobuf payload, it looks like the header might not be the NUL-delimited/ASCII control char sequence the author inteprets it as.

Unless it's coincidence, each of the string portions is prefixed by its length in bytes. Since they're all so short[1], it's not obvious if they're 1,2 or 4 byte lengths, or if those are just padding or other flag bytes. It smells almost like the binary plist format[2], but doesn't seem to obviously decode.

This is just casual inspection of only the sequences in the article, so might be wildly wrong, and probably irrelevant.

Brute-forcing the protobuf message without the schema surprisingly effective here though. I didn't realise it left as much structure in there.

[1] NPI

[2] [https://synalysis.com/how-to-decode-apple-binary-property- li...](https://synalysis.com/how-to-decode-apple-binary-property-list-files/)

<comment><AUTHOR> You are correct. I have not tested this yet, but they are most likely strings prefixed with their lengths. I was trying to be too smart and assumed they used ASCII control characters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Now I understand the "your location accuracy is improved when turning on WiFi" message! Very interesting.

Does this also mean that location accuracy is NOT improved when no Internet is available and iOS couldn't update its list of known access points around me? This would mean I could save battery while traveling by disabling wifi.

<comment><USER6> If you're traveling to somewhere you've never been before, and you have no internet for 100% of the time, then maybe wifi won't be useful. But if you've been there before, the device may still have info about wifi hotspots stored locally (after locationgate I'm not sure how long those are kept, and whether policies were changed again after ubiquitous FDE), which would allow it to still benefit from having wifi turned on even without internet.

<comment><USER5> Right. But would still be interesting how "far" away the hotspots are downloaded. If I e.g. roadtrip from New York to Chicago with Internet in New York - I wonder how far Wifi Assisted GPS would help me before there isn't any meaningful data anymore.

<comment><USER2> At the time of the location gate I had parsed my personal buffer and I found out that pretty much all Manhattan was included. I hadn't a roaming plan when visiting New-York so I only got randomly access to internet at free hotspots.

So I guess a good rule of thumb would be to turn off while on the road with no wifi, but keep on in cities (where A-GPS is the most efficient) where you gonna stay for awhile with sporadic hotspot access.

Also classical GPS (while slow to kick-in) is often really good enough in countryside where you don't suffer from building shapes interfering with the signal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Wonderful. We need more of this to understand the whole iOS/macOS services stack.

</comment><comment><USER8> Great work! Looking for something similar for AirPlay.</comment>


MAPS.ME users now can edit OpenStreetMap by themselves - <AUTHOR> http://blog.maps.me/2016/04/lets-make-most-detailed-map-together.html <comment><USER2> MAPS.ME is an awesome product, and probably the best alternative to Google Maps: great performances, free and open source and not trying to track you everywhere.

Allowing user to contribute back to OSM makes it even greater.

<comment><USER3> The fact that start and endpoints of calculated routes are uploaded to a server (and until recently unencrypted[1]) doesn't inspire confidence. The app also collects analytic statistics and serves ads by default. If you're interested in a maps application that is not "trying to track you everywhere", OsmAnd[2] is a better choice.

Also, Maps.me is owned by mail.ru which has a similar business model to Google with arguably more lax security practices.

[1][https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/1073](https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/1073) [2][http://osmand.net](http://osmand.net)

<comment><USER4> From the issue referenced it seems like this is only done when the regions needed for routing are not already downloaded to the device. They do admit that the source/destination is sent to the server rather than just the regions, that might have been a reasonable balance. I was able to create a route from my current location to a new location, one I have never search for before going into airplane mode, across multiple regions already on my device.

The app statistics and ad delivery can be easily turned off.

OsmAnd looks pretty nice too.

<comment><USER5> I use OsmAnd and am currently evaluating Maps.Me.

One thing OsmAnd can do is to set multiple waypoints before the destination then plan a route that hits the waypoints before the destination. This is good for planning routes from A to B to C, etc.

I don't think Maps.Me can do this yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is great news for OpenStreetMap. It makes it easy for millions of people to make fixes and additions that will quickly show up in the mapping system that they are using day to day.

</comment><comment><USER7> Maps.me saved my trip to Okinawa where Here and Google had no offline maps available. I would have donated if there were a button.

</comment><comment><USER8> This is a gamechanger, not being able to make changes to OSM easily (and if it's not easy, I don't do it, like the lazy fuck that I am) was the only thing that bugged me about maps.me. Actually it could be fun now to start mapping expeditions to not-so-well covered areas like rural Mongolia.

<comment><USER9> If you are interested in making large contributions to OSM, I still recommend the dedicated tools like JOSM. I think you'll find that significant editing will become very tedious on a mobile device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> How long does it usually take for [http://maps.me/apk/](http://maps.me/apk/) to update?

I like to avoid major app stores when possible, especially for open source apps (I'm not quite ready to build for myself for all the apps I use though), so I've been getting the app direct from the source for previous releases.

For me, this has been one of the key apps in migrating from Google apps to open source.

<comment><USER11> Check out the discussion here:

[https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/85](https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/85)

In summary, Maps.me includes a few binary blob analytics libraries. The F-Droid fork removed them, but they have to sort out how to make sure the fork plays nice with their data servers, or they have to host it on their own.

<comment><USER12> relan, who created the Fdroid fork, unfortunately deleted that fork.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I like very much the Maps.me and I have recomanded it to several people. I would like to know if it's possible to search in London by the postcode or how could I add myself the postcode database (into to my phone).

<comment><USER9> The UK postcode data is not freely available.[0]

[0][http://www.freethepostcode.org/](http://www.freethepostcode.org/)

<comment><USER14> Postcode centroids have been freely available since 2010. freethepostcode was set up before then (as was npemap, a similar site I was involved with: [http://www.npemap.org.uk/FAQ.html#whatIsIt](http://www.npemap.org.uk/FAQ.html#whatIsIt) ).

Postcode boundaries, however, are still not available openly.

<comment><USER15> I wonder how much absolute error there is between the actual boundary and a Voronoi boundary. While I'm sure there's some massive IV postcode for which it wouldn't work, if most postcodes are tiny, then the fact that you're off by under a kilometre isn't so bad for routing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I done some OSM the entry level is low-level (for me). There are quite a bit of rules to OSM to map properly. So I am not entirely sure this is a good thing. I'd be happier with bug-reports and pictures personally.

<comment><USER6> There's billions of buildings to map, millions of POIs, anything that makes the long tail longer is a good thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Maps.me is a cool idea, but the search functionality is unusable.

Is it done entirely based on OSM data or are they referencing some other data set?

<comment><USER18> Searching algorithms were completely redone in this release. Give it a try.

<comment><USER19> Still are very, very bad.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> As an OSM data consumer I hope this gets more people adding nodes, particularly house numbers for geocoding.</comment>


An Exciting Day in IT - <AUTHOR> http://www.thetechscoop.net/2011/10/07/an-exciting-day-in-it/ <comment><USER2> Sorry, doesn't hold a candle to wa-wa-wa-windows-386.

<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239>

<comment><USER3> wow. the only thing that could make that worse is imagining it screened in front of an audience of suits, clapping and head-bobbing to her rap.</comment></comment>


Linux vs. Linux Users - <AUTHOR> http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=20339

<comment><USER3> Google Cache [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.sh...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=20339)

</comment><comment><USER4> You didnt meet upon Linux users, I doubt that highly, it seems the comments you got were from people who had a wish to use Linux or perhaps tried it out as a LiveCD/Wubi installation and felt they were on top of the world. Some kind of teenager fanboys.

Of all the quite many Linux users I know none would be interested in your, quite funny, article. Its just no on the radar to be interested in such articles if youve been using Linux for more than two-three months.

The problem is this fanboism and making choice of OS some kind of life-style choice and then we have flamewars like in Month Pythons Life of Brian when "Peoples Liberation party and "party for Peoples Liberation" fight.

<comment><USER5> That's a whole lot of _" No True Scottsman"_. Just because _you_ don't know individuals like this personally doesn't mean they're not part of the community.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Quote from cached version of OA

 _" Windows 8 is a mess and while Windows 7 is pretty spiffy, it's also a hundred dollars. Given the shape of the economy right now, lots of people would probably be willing to endure a bit of a learning curve to save that kind of money."_

The _economic_ advantages of Linux/BSD based operating systems include the ability to use older hardware for longer and free/libre application software that may be adequate depending on use cases as well as the operating system itself. I would estimate significant savings over the years even though I have donated several times the cost of an OEM Windows 7 DVD to Ubuntu and other projects.

Of course, 'lots of people' _will_ be using non-Windows systems as they move to [tablets|chrome-book like laptops|Android based desktops when available] over the next few years. Based on a colleague fluidly demonstrating her Samsung Galaxy Tab the other day, they won't need much hand-holding!

Negative comments on blogs? Perhaps not a surprise [1]

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect)

<comment><USER7> > The economic advantages of Linux/BSD based operating systems include the > ability to use older hardware for longer

Totally untrue in my experience, unless you want to use something as minimal as gentoo/archlinux, and that's not for everyone (and even then, low-level stuff like sub-optimal drivers might byte you).

Windows XP is still the champ here, and I believe in many cases 7 does as least as good a job as most popular distros (Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora/...).

<comment><USER8> If you compare XP to the latest Ubuntu, then yeah you'd have a point. But you're also comparing a decade old OS against one of the latest compositing desktop environments sat on top of one of the most bloated Linux distros; which is hardly a fair comparison.

Plus as time moves on, fewer and fewer software will support XP. Where as distros like Puppy will support all the latest browsers, have the latest security fixes _and still_ have a lower hardware footprint (disk space, RAM, CPU, etc).

<comment><USER7> I'm not comparing XP to Ubuntu. A few years ago I experimented with a Pentium 3. XP beat "mid-level" Linux distributions handily. Mid-level distributions would be something like [http://www.zenwalk.org/](http://www.zenwalk.org/), typically using user friendly but lightweight software (like XFCE). Note how they advertise for speed on the front page.

I also owned a first-generation netbook, and there XP was better than Puppy, Slax, etc...

<comment><USER8> _> "I'm not comparing XP to Ubuntu. A few years ago I experimented with a Pentium 3. XP beat "mid-level" Linux distributions handily. Mid-level distributions would be something like [http://www.zenwalk.org/](http://www.zenwalk.org/), typically using user friendly but lightweight software (like XFCE). Note how they advertise for speed on the front page."_

The problem here is you're just quoting anecdotal evidence - which is pretty much worthless. There's nothing to say what the specs of the systems were, what your usage was, nor any post-install optimisations (eg since you're familiar with Windows I'd wager that you weren't running a vanilla install of XP - instead disabling themes and such like to streamline the OS. But you were probably still running a vanilla build of stripping XP down to it's minimal components while running a vanilla versions of those other Linux distros).

To further prove how useless anecdotal evidence is, I wiped my wife's old laptop and installed Xubuntu and saw some marked speed improvements - <USER2> Xubuntu having desktop compositing and such like enabled (which wasn't enabled in Windows). I've also replaced two offices full of Windows CE thin clients with Linux - same hardware, but instead of WinCE (which is as minimal as Windows gets), it's running ArchLinux with LXDE.

So we can all quote the "upgrades" that we've done, but without offering any real details such stories are worthless (and the results would be mostly down to whichever OS your most familiar with anyway - as you'll know how to tweak it's performance). Which is why the majority of my point was about the age of XP (and the issues that gives in terms of security and support) vs running the latest version of Linux. At lest with that, we can evidence our arguments.

 _> "typically using user friendly but lightweight software (like XFCE)"_

XFCE isn't actually _that_ lightweight. I mean, it's often used as a lightweight alternative to KDE, GNOME and such like, but they're pretty beefy / bloated desktop environments. If you wanted something lightweight then you would have been better off with LXDE, E17 or any of the numerous window managers. But this goes back to my point about it being easier to for you to run a low footprint version of Windows because you're more familiar with that - and thus how worthless anecdotal evidence is because of that bias.

 _> "I also owned a first-generation netbook, and there XP was better than Puppy, Slax, etc..."_

Well that's definitely not true because the 1st generation netbooks were ASUS EeePCs and they were all Linux (Xandros to be precise). XP wouldn't even run on the netbooks originally. Microsoft had to push through changes to XP's code and licences after the netbook market started to take off out of worry that Linux might grab a chunk of Windows's market. And I remember this vividly because not only does my wife have a 1st generation EeePC, but I remember the Linux fanboys proclaiming that netbooks marked the "year of the Linux desktop" (which sadly never happened due to Microsoft subsidising Windows so massively that Linux netbooks actually worked out more expensive in comparison).

<comment><USER7> Well, it is anecdotal, never claimed otherwise. I did not do particular optimizations on XP however. I was just much more responsive out of the box.

I also agree XFCE isn't really lightweight - but it's included in a helluva lot of things that describe themselves as lightweight and target older machines.

Maybe we can say the netbook was second generation then. It was an Acer Aspire One. I think you could choose between a weird crippled Linux or a Windows install. Or maybe it was dual-boot? I installed a fresh copy to get rid of the crapware anyway.

<comment><USER8> _> "I also agree XFCE isn't really lightweight - but it's included in a helluva lot of things that describe themselves as lightweight and target older machines."_

It's a matter of context. XFCE is usually shipped as a lightweight yet highly configurable alternative to the feature-rich desktop environments (DE) such as KDE and GNOME. Which it is. But that's only relative to the resources that it's peers consume. However in the last 5 or 6 years LXDE has come on the scene - which is even even more stripped down than XFCE was and as LXDE has a strong focus on modularization, it's even easier to run a low-footprint LXDE desktop. But as it's a relatively recent DE, it's not been a distro default- choice until recently.

There's also E17 (enlightenment) which has been around for donkey's years yet oddly seems to draw very little attention despite it's impressive performance. Not sure why that is, but if I had to guess - it might be because it's aesthetics is a little more individual so switching between different toolkits in E17 can be a touch more jarring and harder to unify.

However if you want really low footprint, then you need to run purely window manager instead of a full desktop environment. But they're less intuitive, less pretty and just generally another class of UI.

So there's a reason why XFCE is (or was) the low footprint DE of choice.

 _> "Maybe we can say the netbook was second generation then. It was an Acer Aspire One. I think you could choose between a weird crippled Linux or a Windows install. Or maybe it was dual-boot? I installed a fresh copy to get rid of the crapware anyway._"

You might have a 1st generation Acer netbook then. But Acer weren't the first to market with netbooks. I think they were a full year behind ASUS's EeePCs (and even further behind similar devices aimed at different markets - such as the OLPC).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What does he expect? He clearly thinks Windows is a better operating system, and it shows.

Okay, I'm kidding. I've tried some comedy stuff as a hobby and quickly realized that no matter how obvious to you think the jokes are -- hell, you probably think you're making it _too blindingly obvious_ \-- someone won't get it. They simply aren't your target audience. Maybe if you filled them with memes or rage comics it would communicate "hey there doofus, this is a joke!" But you'd lose the very people you're trying to target.

The people that appreciate a slight turn of phrase or subtle, dry wit don't much cross over with the those who find least common denominator humor funny. Oh well.

</comment><comment><USER10> I seem to remember something about trolls trolling trolls.

</comment><comment><USER11> You get these kind of cranks for anything. Unless he's compared with a control article where he's equally dumb about a different subject I wouldn't read anything into it.

<comment><USER8> He did compare it to a "control article". A few in fact. And his article in question wasn't "dumb" \- it was just satire which a bunch of kids misinterpreted as being "dumb".

In fact your post is somewhat ironic because the article was about exactly that kind of negative knee-jerk reaction where commenters are quick to jump on the offensive without stopping to think about what they just read.

<comment><USER11> >He did compare it to a "control article". A few in fact.

Were any of those he compared to ones where he was deliberately being dumb and wrong about something?

>And his article in question wasn't "dumb" \- it was just satire which a bunch of kids misinterpreted as being "dumb".

Shrug. Poe's law. Or, as 4chan puts it, "ironic shitposting is still shitposting".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Seems to be down. Mirror?

<comment><USER8> It's essentially just a rant at OS fanboys who post knee-jerk reactions without stopping to think about the context of the post they're irritated by.

I feel for the author, I really do. He posted some rather obvious satire about Windows vs Linux and then faced the wrath of the brain-dead as numerous zealots took to site -and e-mail- to send profanities. But what the author misses is that this tribal behavior happens with all OSs and has been the case for many years. Sadly this is nothing new nor unique to his incident.

While it's easier said than done, sometimes it's better to just ignore the hate and silently moderate the worst comments (or better yet, close the comments on that article and let the haters have their flamewars somewhere else)</comment></comment>


Less Wrong Q&A with Eliezer Yudkowsky: Video Answers - <AUTHOR> http://lesswrong.com/lw/1lq/less_wrong_qa_with_eliezer_yudkowsky_video_answers/

<comment><USER2> I am interested in this, but I don't understand the reason for the video format. Is there a transcript available?</comment>


String of Positives Leads Wall Street To Good Friday - <AUTHOR> http://mast-economy.blogspot.com/2009/04/thursdays-string-of-positives-leads.html <comment><AUTHOR> now this six week rally has stocks up 30%+ since their lows</comment>


Show HN: Blook – Helping US and Foreign entrepreneurs setup their U.S. company - <AUTHOR> https://blook.io <comment><AUTHOR> Hi Everyone,

Yesterday was our official go-live for Blook ([https://blook.io](https://blook.io))!

After working on the product and iterating from customer feedback, finally happy to say we're out there and ready to help global entrepreneurs register their business in the U.S. (LLC or C-Corp).

Blook is a company dedicated to offering Domestic and International tech entrepreneurs a quick and easy way to setup their company in the U.S.

Our setup process takes less than 5 minutes (and you can do it from your phone!) and provides us with everything we need to get to work establishing your new company in the U.S. so you can focus on building your business.

I'd love any feedback or recommendations! :) Have a great day and new years everyone!

<comment><USER2> It would be great if you can integrate features of clerky with international tax law/accounting advicr. US tax laws are notoriously complex. You won't be able to differentiate from e.g. Stripe Atlas with just the current set of features alone.</comment></comment>


WhatsApp database dumper for Metasploit - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/rapid7/metasploit-framework/pull/3039

<comment><USER2> meterpreter is a rootkit is it not?

Doesn't that mean all data is comprimised, not just Whatsapp, since the root account has full access to the /data/data folder?

This is similar to the Metasploit script that searches for bitcoin wallet.dat files. Just a minor post-hacking automation script.

</comment><comment><USER3> it depends if it can exploit a root vulnerability or not. but for this db dumper the device doesn't have to be rooted. check the codes from here [http://goo.gl/oOpJmr](http://goo.gl/oOpJmr)</comment>


Missing bitcoins on Coinbase - <AUTHOR>

It has been two days now since I have seen my bitcoins. This isn't because of a delayed confirmation, or someone hacked my account. My ledger displays perfectly that I should have bitcoins in my account. But I don't. I've tried to contact Coinbase by email and their twitter account and have received no response.
So here I am, knowing they are a ycombinator backed company, posting here, to find out what the heck is going on? I perused twitter to see if maybe other people are having this same problem.
Looks like I am not alone!
"@brian_armstrong @coinbase Still no response on my support request. I'm still missing 9.6 BTC. Can you tell me what's going on?" https://twitter.com/thomrburg/status/303870208102248448
"@coinbase Day 3 of missing BTC. Imagine if your bank suddenly took your cash from your account." https://twitter.com/aginanon/status/303653952162000897
"Balance says 0 when I should have around 80btc?! Heard @coinbase was having some issues but that they had been resolved.. whats the dealio?" https://twitter.com/jacobparrish/status/303642200707854336
"@jacobparrish @coinbase I'm still having the same problem too! Really nerve-racking." https://twitter.com/nsillik/status/303650076549591040
It is time to come clean. What happened to our money? Why haven't you responded to anyone in 48 hours about this? <comment><USER2> We had a display bug introduced over the weekend which showed incorrect cached balance amounts. Definitely frustrating, and my deepest apologies for that. We are working through support requests and should have a fix out for your account by end of day. Thank you for bearing with us!

<comment><USER3> Brian, could you respond why Coinbase has shifted from a clusterfuck pay-a- withdrawal-with-the-global-pool-of-coins to pay-a-withdrawal-with-the- user's-coins?

I noticed Coinbase credits users even without transaction confirmations. Then I noticed withdrawals used the same inputs from the deposits the user receives.

This could be bad and good:

1) (good) User is immediately notified when Coinbase is breached. It's the moment when they notice their deposit address is sending coins to a address that is not their's.

2) (bad) There is one chance to protect the coins. If you even think the private keys are compromised, you would have to be safe and broadcast the move of coins to new addresses. This will be really messy.

3) (bad) Anonymity reduction. The user can't launder coins in the network. Withdrawing deposited coins will appear to be a direct transaction from:

A -> B (deposit) then B -> C (withdrawal)

instead of:

A -> B (deposit) then Z (other user's coins) -> C

Also, is Coinbase moving to a client-sided wallet approach?

<comment><USER2> Part of doing the secure offline storage is that we need to use a hot wallet. [http://blog.coinbase.com/post/33197656699/coinbase-now- stori...](http://blog.coinbase.com/post/33197656699/coinbase-now- storing-87-of-customer-funds-offline)

It's definitely not perfect yet, but the security benefits are important. We posted an update on the payouts via unconfirmed transactions as well: [http://blog.coinbase.com/post/43285532179/unconfirmed- transa...](http://blog.coinbase.com/post/43285532179/unconfirmed-transactions)

Just generally, we are going through hyper growth right now, so this tends to magnify small problems. Thank you for bearing with us!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I understand the frustration, but _"It is time to come clean. What happened to our money?"_ sounds very accusatory – as if you've already made your mind up that you've been duped, which is unlikely to be the case.

Fair play for posting on HN, but Coinbase is a great company and Brian's a top guy – I think it's better to give him the benefit of the doubt. I've been humbled in the past by jumping to conclusions or venting too early.

This is at worst a technical issue combined with a minor customer support mishap (i.e. not being available when needed).

<comment><USER5> I think that would apply if this weren't money-related. When your money mysteriously goes missing and nobody's telling you why, I think that's cause for concern.

<comment><USER4> Cause for concern, sure, but my problem with it was the jumping to conclusions, as I noted with the quotation from the post.

<comment><USER5> How is that jumping to conclusions? He's not saying that he thinks they stole it. He just wants a clear explanation of what happened. I don't see pitchforks, just a demand for a response.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Just checked and my balance was ok. But it did freak me out that I couldn't see my balance before I agreed to a new user agreement which included me waiving my rights to join a class action lawsuit.

<comment><USER7> That raises a good point. If you don't agree to the new EULA, is there a way to withdraw your money?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I am trying to send a verification email so that I can verify my account. But it will not show up. I have tried multiple times with 2 different email accounts, and I have checked the spam folders on both accounts, but I am not receiving the verification email. Can someone in administration please tell me what to do or send me the verification to email@example.com.

Thanks,

-Peter

</comment><comment><USER9> I'm missing over 40 btc from coinbase account too! They were even there previously but now it says they're gone! There is no trail of them disappearing through transactions though!

<comment><USER9> I posted this about 20 minutes after I sent them an email about it. I just checked my account right now and the missing coins are back in the account. thanks for the fast response coinbase. Hopefully that doesn't happen again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> There are replies to the tweets <https://twitter.com/nsillik/status/303650076549591040>

@teevers @jacobparrish yup. It was fixed for me at about 4pm pacific yesterday.

</comment><comment><USER11> Make a transaction and they'll reappear. At least, they did for me.

<comment><AUTHOR> Can't, I have 0 balance error when I try.

<comment> w-ll Maybe send 0.00000001 Satoshis</comment></comment></comment>


Hulu is kicking Youtube's Ass - <AUTHOR> http://www.blogmaverick.com/2008/06/16/hulu-is-kicking-youtubes-ass/

<comment><USER2> The YouTube acquisition wasn't just about buying a streaming video company. It's not about losing money on every sale and making it up in volume. The YouTube acquisition was about getting Google's engineers a huge dataset of video to start running search on. Google's all about trying to do things with huge datasets.

<comment><USER3> You don't spend $1.65 billion on a dataset. You spend it on eyeballs.

Eyeballs they got, though they haven't been able to turn them into money.

<comment><USER4> Does everything have to be mutually exclusive?!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is a bit of a stretch; they don't even really compete with each other all that much. Hulu only has TV shows; it doesn't have huge volumes of user- generated content. People don't use Hulu to the exclusion of Youtube or vice versa.

<comment><USER6> Thank you for pointing that out. I felt like I was losing my mind as I was reading Cuban's blog. Can someone direct me to the place on Hulu where I can upload my kid's gymnastics video so I can send it to my folks living overseas? Oh yeah, that place doesn't exist.

<comment><USER7> cuban's point is still valid, while youtube accepts user-generated content like your kid's gymnastics video, they will never be able to sell any ads against it, because no one other than you and your family will want to see that video, no offense.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I watched Heroes last night on Hulu. It was more convenient than kicking off a torrent. That is huge.

I'd like it to be HD with no Ads - and I'd love to integrate Tipjoy to give money voluntarily to my favorite shows. I'd also love to be able to download the videos.

<comment><USER9> I'm not sure a tipping model would generate enough for Hollywood.

Along the same idea of avoiding the ads, I'd rather pay a subscription for a piecemeal selection of HD episodes with no ads.

<comment><USER8> I think there is room for both, but Hollywood will want a sale.

Tipjoy is going to support any distribution model people want - we're just starting out with voluntary tipping. We're building a general purpose micropayments engine.

<comment><USER10> i know you gotta sell, sell, sell Tipjoy, but to HN?

<comment><USER8> Are you saying that I mention my startup and our plans too often on HackerNews? I like hearing about other YC companies here, so I presume others feel the same about me.

<comment><USER10> True, I actually really like what Tipjoy is doing and imagine you have a few things up your sleeves that your working on, but ...

that last comment felt like you were trying to sell the HN community on what Tipjoy is doing, when I don't think you need that validation.

Maybe I'm just noticing your Tipjoy input more after the whole spiel with that guy writing the blog post saying you guys were floundering.

<comment><USER8> There is a lot of debate about the future of content monetization, and I thought Tipjoy was really relevant here. I'm not looking for validation, though I'm interested in hearing the different opinions on the topic.

We were a day from releasing a major new feature that got techcrunched when the "floundering" post came up. Clearly he knew nothing.

<comment><USER10> _We're building a general purpose micropayments engine._

 _That_ is what we want to hear about. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Similarly, watermelons are totally kicking lemon's asses - they're bigger, so you're more satisfied if you eat a a melon than a lemon. They're also sweeter, so they taste better.

Give me a break. Hulu is doing completely different things from YouTube, just like blip.tv is doing completely different things from both of them. Each one of them does well what they were intended for. The right question to be asking, if any,is which one of them will replace television as we know it, and although it's impossible to know for sure, my best would be against Hulu.

<comment><USER10> Eric Schmidt has gone on record saying Google has almost no idea what to do with YouTube. That's not a particularly good thing, and the fact Mark points out about YouTube not being able to monetize the majority of their videos is pretty alarming. It's not a charity.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> "Kicking ass" doesn't even make sense in this context.

It controls its media. Ok, good.

I visited YouTube about a dozen times today. Hulu, erm, zero.

Ass kicking? Hardly.

<comment><USER3> It's not often I agree with Cuban, but did you even read the post?

<comment><USER12> I did. It was very linkbaity.

<comment><USER10> because he pointed out that Hulu probably already makes as much, if not more, money than YouTube?

At the end of the day, YouTube has to make something its customers (advertisers, not users) want, and so far it has failed to do so.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> By that definition, my website is also kicking YouTube's ass. It made 400€ in revenue last year.

</comment><comment><USER4> Hulu only works in the US :/

<comment><USER14> I came here just to say that. Youtube works everywhere, Hulu doesn't and probably won't for a long time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> For everyone complaining about the post, he says lots of times that Hulu doesn't have more videos and doesn't let you share videos. He is looking at it solely from a business perspective.

</comment><comment><USER16> i started watching Family Guy on there but it had ADVERTISING! i don't mind ads around the player, but interrupting the actual content is worse than a popup for me. of course, it's not as much advertising as on TV, but it's something i don't expect on the internet

i'd rather download the torrent, though i guess that's not the sort of thing Hulu is for. it seems more like a replacement for TV

</comment><comment><USER9> there is value in keeping certain acquisitions out of competitors hands.

</comment><comment><USER17> YouTube is no Broadcast.com, that's for sure.</comment>


Drumbi Answers "Why the hell is HE calling?" - <AUTHOR> http://tech.li/2011/11/drumbi-answers-why-the-hell-is-he-calling/

<comment><USER2> Drumbi (<http://www.drumbi.com>) requires both parties to install the app and requires callers to use the app to dial...how would this ever catch on?

Even worse, the benefit would seem to be more to the callee than the caller. The callee is the one who gets to decide whether to take the call, redirect it, or give canned answers (if I'm getting the demo). Why would someone who makes calls want to install an app that makes it more likely that they won't get through by phone? Wouldn't it make more sense to send an email or text?</comment>


Startup Battles – Your battles, your stories - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/startup-battles <comment><AUTHOR> If you're keen to contribute, get in touch: twitter.com/mahringer_a

<comment><USER2> Email?

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure: firstname.lastname@example.com

Looking forward to hearing from you! :)</comment></comment></comment>


Banned in Cupertino - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10127333-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 <comment><USER2> I'm surprised apple haven't found a better way of dealing with the plethora of content/apps people want to add to the store in a better way.

The "mature" rating seems like something they would have had from the start, ala iTunes. It seems like there are plenty of violent or not-quite pornography materials that would make Apple and the developers plenty of money from consenting adults.

Think of the filth that springs from the mouths of rappers. I can't think of much literature I've read that tops that for sexual content, violence and misogyny.

</comment><comment><USER3> So any book that contains the word "fuck" is banned? There goes pretty much every Michael Crichton book.

<comment><USER4> Well, fiddlesticks.

Seriously, though: I understand that the App Store is Apple's garden to wall, but what do they gain by doing things like this? If they ban every book with swearing in it, then they're left with damn few books. People that want to sell books to read on an iPhone will do it somewhere else, like with an ebook reader app and separate book sales that Apple doesn't get a cut of. What's their game here?

<comment><USER5> As best I can tell:

Point 1) Normal people (people you and I know but aren't) buy iPhones because they're "cool", or they look neat, or they are known to be easy to use.

Point 2) There is essentially no competition on all three of the attributes in #1 -- every competitor falls down in at least one major way: The Series 60 brand is in too many devices for any one of them to have substantial mindshare, Windows mobile is a kludgy UI mess, the Blackberry browser is atrocious, Android is still too boutique, etc. Apple has a clear story anyone can understand: "Buy our [one] phone. You can use [all of] the features it has." Nobody else can really say that.

Point 3) As neat as the App Store is, it's a geek/gee whiz feature. The iPhone sold incredibly well with 1.0 software, and the app store seemed almost like a grudging concession to geeks (remember "the browser is great! you should just use web apps!"? ). People that buy iPhones go "oh, that's cool too" and buy $0.99 applications that show glasses of beer that tip when the phone is rotated -- things that are not reasons to buy or not buy a phone. The app store isn't key to the iPhone story.

Point 4) Apple would get a lot of bad (general) press for certain categories of application, but will only get a negligible amount of bad technical press for swatting applications, even arbitrarily. Of that bad technical press, half of the people will write it off as Apple haters having their way, regardless of the merits.

Point 5) Sometimes it's hard to see the world-changing effects of an application. It's easy to imagine how an application might jeapordize #1 or #2.

Point 4 authorizes heavy moderating. Points 1 and 2 serve to protect Apple's top line revenue from same. Point 5 supports capricious moderating. Point 3 isn't enough to prevent them from doing so.

Until there's real, compelling competition (meaning at the OS level, point 1, and at the device level, point 2), I would expect this to continue.</comment></comment></comment>


Doctors' Association Sees Harm in Insurance Mergers - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/08/business/doctors-association-sees-harm-in-insurance-mergers.html

<comment><USER2> It's my understanding that the larger the insurance company is the better able they are to negotiate lower prices for health care. I can see why doctors might be opposed to that.</comment>


Swift LispKit - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/objecthub/swift-lispkit <comment><USER2> > LispKit is based on the R7RS standard for Scheme.

I think that it should be called SchemeKit, since it's based on Scheme rather than Lisp.

It does look pretty neat. It's extremely odd that lists are immutable (but cons cells are mutable — are lists not conses‽), but maybe that's okay in the Scheme world nowadays?

Edit: LispPad[0] is a really interesting-looking Scheme IDE from the same author.

0: [http://lisppad.objecthub.net/](http://lisppad.objecthub.net/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Call it only Lisp, if it is actually compatible with Lisp. Otherwise you will confuse people. Scheme compatible languages usually have Scheme in their name (if at all): MitScheme, Macscheme, Chicken Scheme, DRScheme, ...

See [http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq- standards#implem...](http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq- standards#implementations)

There are also already Lisp and Scheme implementations called Lispkit...

<comment><USER4> What does "compatible with Lisp" mean? Compatible with the Lisp 1.5 meta interpreter? Compatible with Emacs Lisp? Compatible with Common Lisp?

People generally refer to "Lisp", unqualified, as referring to the family of languages inclusive of all of the above.

<comment><USER3> It means somehow compatible with the Lisp 1.5 implementtion. Which is an interpreter/compiler, and a base library. It's the first widely used Lisp implementation. This implies cons cell based lists, s-expressions, and a whole bunch of basic control structures and facilities. The first Scheme dialects were quite similar to that, but deviated and extended this in their own direction with a series of language standards RNRS.

If a langage is a Scheme dialect, call it Scheme.

Basic rule: use the nearest (!) language name, one is compatible with. This strives to be a R7RS Scheme. Thus name it Schwme. Then the Scheme literature and the Scheme source libraries apply. If it is a Scheme, I would best get myself a Scheme tutorial to learn using it - reading the Lisp literature is of less direct help.

For example typically Common Lisp implementations have 'Common Lisp' or 'CL' its name, and are not called SchemeSomething. SBCL, CCL, GCl, Allegro Cl, MCL, ECL, ... Exceptions are CLISP or the product LispWorks.

To avoid confusion a language should call itself Lisp, when it is practically (syntactically) a Lisp, not just in the unspecified family of 'Lisp': Logo, Scheme, Clojure, MDL, Dylan, SKILL, ...

<comment><USER4> Scheme most certainly is a Lisp. I agree that the OP should have called it SchemeKit or some such, but I would not agree on a categorization that excludes schemes from the category of "Lisp".

<comment><USER3> It's a Lisp which is now called Scheme and not Lisp anymore. Scheme has now its own name and family.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lispkit_Lisp](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lispkit_Lisp)</comment>


Creator of Facebook iPhone app leaves to build mobile and HTML5 creative tools - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/creator_of_facebook_iphone_app_leaves_to_build_mob.php <comment><USER2> Joe Hewitt : I'm an indie developer now.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2522961></comment>


We don't need a ternary operator - <AUTHOR> https://mortoray.com/2018/09/05/we-dont-need-a-ternary-operator/ <comment><USER2> The ternary operator is a hack due to C distinguishing between statements & expressions. A better language would just use if:

        (setf thing (if (< a b) foo bar))

The above sets THING to FOO if A is less than B, otherwise it sets THING to BAR.</comment>


Disabilities vs. DRM: The World Cup Edition - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/disabilities-vs-drm-world-cup-edition <comment><USER2> Streaming matches through unofficial channels is a huge, huge thing. Near everybody does it and there is a big streaming links community with specialized software. The top Reddit community has a quarter of a million subscribers, and from anecdotal evidence a large number of non registered people visit to get the links.

Surely this is DRM free? I get that the EFF wants to make a point about DRM (and a good one at that) but the sheer quantity and accessibility (+ if you're lucky, quality) of these streams means that in reality these fans are not left in the cold.</comment>


What is the truth behind "9 out of 10 startups fail"? - wh-uws http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-truth-behind-9-out-of-10-startups-fail <comment><AUTHOR> SBA statistics and so on are meaningless, because startups are such a small proportion of small businesses generally.

I have no idea where the rule of thumb that 9 out of 10 startups fail comes from, but it doesn't sound too far off. IIRC about a third of companies that raise series A from VC funds fail, and most startups that fail do it before getting VC funding, not after.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, it seems that a lot of these statistics refer to _establishments_ \- to me, an establishment is a startup that has gotten far enough to incorporate, get funding, and so on, and I don't think that equates to startups in general.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The first answer atm is terrible, switching failure rates to success rates within one paragraph.

I've said it here a few time, the 9/10 number is total nonsense propagated because people like to think they're special for lasting.

It's never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever been that high, it was made up in a NYT article 10 years ago and been repeated without any challenge in startup circles for far too long.

Worse still 'failure' rates often include people who have sold their business for massive profits or have shut the business down after making profit, neither failures, in fact successes.

So while you are pretty special for starting a business, you're not that special for still being in business in 5 years time. It's actually pretty common.

<comment><USER4>
      > it was made up in a NYT article 10 years ago

I think it's older than that, though it may have been worded as, "9 out of 10 small businesses fail."

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The best answer is the one from Christoph Möller, who points out it's really that roughly speaking for every 10 startups, roughly:

A) 3 will fail outright

B) 3 will return less than the invested capital

C) 3 will return the investied capital

D) 1 will be highly successful and make investing in all 10 startups highly worth while.

I've heard slightly different breakdowns about categories C and D. which are sometimes called the "living dead", and point out of the 1 (or sometimes 2) that actually have a successful exit, only 1 in 100 have an amazingly successful exit such as Google.

The bottom line is that success or failure metrics vary greatly whether you are talking about it from the perspective of the VC, the founder, or the employees who just want to have food with their meals.

The employees might not consider a "living dead" outcome to be a failure, and depending on the founder's motivations if the "living dead" startup is providing some great service and he or she is more passionate about providing that service as opposed to becoming rich beyond the dreams of all avarice, a founder might not mind all that much either. A good example of this is Cygnus Support, which was technically in the "living dead" category for a decade before the Red Hat acquisition.

<comment><USER6> Is this list geared towards Venture Capital backed businesses?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I can see how a statistic like that could apply to someone's first business, where they don't know what they're doing. After a while you learn to suck less at running a business, hopefully before the money runs out.

When I first started I hated sales, hated salespeople, hated marketing. That is not healthy for a business person looking to succeed. I had to become the salesguy and the marketing guy early on. Later I had learn how to manage people and conflicts (internal and external). If this is something you can't or don't want to do, then maybe starting a business isn't for you. If working long hours, not necessarily getting paid, having a fairly stressful job and worrying about being able to pay the mortgage in the beginning don't phase you then ignore the phrase completely and go for it.

</comment><comment><USER8> I would be more curious to know the number of successful bootstrapped businesses vs. VC-funded ones...

</comment><comment><USER9> Because self-reported failure data is trustworthy.

</comment><comment><USER10> I believe it.

Especially since many of the startups I see these days are not long-term businesses. Their only hope for success is to be bought out by a bigger company, which doesn't happen very often.

</comment><comment><USER11> Doesn't matter.

</comment><comment><USER12> If you are scared to fail, go maintain Home Depot's website and iPhone app. It's ok not to be an entrepreneur.

<comment><USER12> Do the down-voters care to add any actual constructive criticism of my claim?

<comment><USER13> Yes: your contemptuous tone is not appreciated. From the guidelines:

 _Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation._

Would you say your exact sentence to someone who works at a big company or a research lab, someone who chose not to do a startup?

<comment><USER12> "Would you say your exact sentence to someone who works at a big company or a research lab, someone who chose not to do a startup?"

Absolutely. Wynkoop Brewery (Denver, CO), every Friday happy hour (well, ~85% of the time).</comment></comment></comment></comment>


my 30 minutes project datetimenow.org - <AUTHOR> http://datetimenow.org

<comment><USER2> what's wrong with typing in the place name followed by 'time' in google?

<comment><USER3> Btw. is there some way to ask google "when it is 10am in new york, what time is it in tokyo?".

<comment><USER4> It'll just bring back some results that _may_ be useful. However, Wolfram Alpha does this pretty well..

[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=when+it+is+10am+in+new+...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=when+it+is+10am+in+new+york,+what+time+is+it+in+tokyo%3F)

It doesn't understand the question exactly, but still shows the current times, and quick math could tell you what it would be at 10am. Some playing with the query and adding "timezone" into it gets you closer to the actual answer you're asking though

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Contains too much text which is unnecessary.

All the explanation about UTC, GMT, DST doesn't need to be on the page where I come to see the time. The page for a timezone need to display only the local date and time and the offset from UTC.

The left side bar is unnecessary if the search bar at the top works as intended.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't get it. I suspect it doesn't work on Chrome/Win7 because there's a blank spot on the page, and I don't see anything that shows time, no matter what I click on.

</comment><comment><USER7> sorry, useless..

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> is there anyway to convert a address to its timezone?

say Lyon in France, there is only one timezone in France which is Europe/Paris, but how to convert a city like Lyon or even a small town into its timezone?

cause there might be multiple timezones in a country...

<comment><USER8> [http://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&q=Lyon+time](http://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&q=Lyon+time)

<comment><AUTHOR> how about le rabot? a small town in france

[http://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&q=le+rabot+time](http://www.google.com/search?&hl=en&q=le+rabot+time)

just need a way to find out local time, that's all</comment></comment></comment>


Sean Parker's cancer research consortium to develop new immunotherapeutics - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/04/13/250-million-300-scientists-and-40-labs-sean-parkers-revolutionary-project-to-solve-cancer/ <comment><AUTHOR> On paper this looks really interesting, and I really hope it does well. Immunotherapy is one of the most promising recent success stories of cancer therapy. However I remain skeptical of any efforts to get academic researchers to work together, because (a) the pressure to publish-or-perish is so great that I can see them retreating back into their silos, and (b) academic researchers just aren't used to collaborating. The closest they get is to meet up once every few months to discuss each research group's progress. For this to work, they'll have to find new ways to share their progress, which can become part of their working culture.

<comment><USER2> Academics do respond to money. If Sean makes some tough rules and enforces them and gives the money to scientists young enough to care then it will work.</comment></comment>


The Reddit world map – How to map out online social networks - <AUTHOR> http://www.randalolson.com/2014/10/27/the-reddit-world-map/ <comment><USER2> I'd really like to see this kind of map for scientific publications. That is, instead of users linked by likes and such, a map of publications linked by citations. It seems this would make it easy to find the big papers in a given subject. I've looked and it seems like there are a few attempts at this out there, for example by IEEE, and Reuters (behind a paywall?), but the ones I've seen don't quite get it right. Maybe I've missed it, or maybe it's more difficult to do than it sounds?

A world map of science publications. I think it could be an awesome visualization, but more importantly, it would be really useful.

<comment><USER3> I actually spent a few months putting one together a few years ago using PLOS, and it was actually fun.

Unfortunately outside of PLOS and arXiv, the APIs for building the graphs just don't exist.

Here's one of the better graphs I generated: [https://github.com/drewbuschhorn/DoctorMoon/raw/gh- pages/Scr...](https://github.com/drewbuschhorn/DoctorMoon/raw/gh- pages/Screenshot.png)

[https://github.com/drewbuschhorn/DoctorMoon](https://github.com/drewbuschhorn/DoctorMoon)

which is a graph centered from Why Most Published Research Findings Are False - PLoS - Ioannidis JPA

Which was a great center case to work from since his name is misspelled often in the literature, and he's done lots of work in PLOS.

Never could get anyone interested in it, but email me at drewbuschhorn @ gmail.com if anyone has any questions.

<comment><USER4> The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System[0] has an API[1], though I am not sure it has all the information one would need to create such a graph.

[0] [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/](http://adsabs.harvard.edu/)

[1] [https://github.com/adsabs/adsabs-dev- api](https://github.com/adsabs/adsabs-dev-api)

<comment><USER3> Thanks! I had seen the main site, which I had used lightly in analyzing arxiv papers, but I'd completely missed that they had a library on github.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> MIT Immersion does something very similar for your email. [https://immersion.media.mit.edu/](https://immersion.media.mit.edu/)

<comment><USER6> Sounds cool. Unfortunately their video did not play for me.</comment></comment>


Dependency graphs of Go web frameworks - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/groob/goviz-frameworks <comment><USER3> Just want to highlight a couple points of caution/clarification by groob from the reddit discussion[1].

In response to "What conclusion should I draw from this?":

> _I don 't think the lesson here is to judge these frameworks. The graph > alone is not an indication of quality, there are other things to consider. I > think the lesson is that goviz is awesome and you should run it against your > own projects, where you know the code well. Having tightly coupled code > should be avoided. A dependency graph can pinpoint areas of your application > that are in need of refactoring, as well as code that is either easy or hard > to remove._

In response to "what's the deal with net/http?"

> _Please don 't draw the wrong conclusion from these graphs. Vault is a > complex, production ready application which does much more than your typical > CRUD app. I find the vault http code to be of good quality, and written in > an idiomatic style. If I was learning how to wrote APIs in Go today, I'd > look at the vault http package to learn from._

[1]: [https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/50uni1/dependency_g...](https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/50uni1/dependency_graphs_of_go_web_frameworks/)

</comment><comment><USER4> It would be interesting to see graph on different authors (or people with publishing and committing rights), to see what sort of attack vector we are seeing in here.

E.g. Beego there seems to rely only on astaxie's own packages (and Go packages).

That was my primary take away from NPM debacle, injecting malicious code on one repository from hundreds of authors of small packackges is risk, whereas it's not as big with few dependency authors.

</comment><comment><USER5> _Checks dependency graph in his isomorphic React web framework_

This is gonna take a while. Maybe I'll learn Go while my cluster processes the tree...

<comment><USER6> Guess that's impossible without Spark or Hadoop.

<comment><USER7> Then try to analyze the dependencies of Hadoop.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It would be interesting to see this kind of graph created for other languages like Python, Node.js, etc. to see how they all compare. It would be neat to visualise which language/framework has the worst case of dependency hell

Edit: Spelling

<comment><USER9> Two months ago, someone made one for Servo, in Rust: [https://dirkjan.ochtman.nl/files/servo- graph.svg](https://dirkjan.ochtman.nl/files/servo-graph.svg)

[https://crates.io/crates/cargo-graph](https://crates.io/crates/cargo-graph) can be used to produce them easily.

Rust is somewhere between Ruby and Node here: leaning towards small modules (one of my crates is in this graph, and it exports four functions), but not to the same level.

      > It would be neat to visualise which language/framework has
      > the worst case of dependency hell

So, one thing I've come to realize is that different people have different opinions on what "dependency hell" even means. If you have a lot of dependencies, but your tooling reliably makes it easy to get them, build them, and upgrade them, is that hell?

<comment><USER10> There are a number of objective measures of cyclomatic complexity in software. These metrics show that the higher the complexity, the lower the cohesion of the code[1].

Code that is complex, and has low cohesion, is harder to understand, and therefore harder to change. It's the elephant you have to push on every time you want your program to do something new[2].

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomatic_complexity
      [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI8tNMsozo0

"Dependency hell" might be subjective, but tools that reduce the upfront cost of increased dependencies don't remove the other burdens from you, the developer. In fact they often allow you to produce an impenetrable, unrecoverable tangle more quickly than doing without them.

Edit: Just realized who I responded to... "But, you knew all that."

<comment><USER9>
      > Edit

<3

So, what's interesting is, I would often consider many small bits to have a _lower_ cyclomatic complexity number. That is, whenever I've used tools that measure this kind of thing, the solution is always to take the big things and break them up into many, smaller bits. It's possible that this is bias in the tooling, though.

I think some of this comes down to individual preference as well. It's like that joke, would you rather fight one horse-sized duck or 100 duck-sized horses? In this admittedly very stretched metaphor, the former are relatively monolithic codebases, and the latter are relatively modular ones. I know that I used to prefer one hundred-line class to ten ten-line classes, but now, much much prefer the latter. My experience talking to people about this is that people fall somewhere on this line, often in different places, and that makes it harder to understand. The action that I'm taking to reduce complexity can often be perceived as increasing complexity, depending on where the other person falls on that line.

<comment><USER10> Lots-of-little-ones (LOLO? LOLO) is the right answer in a number of cases. One big god service? No; microservices (lots-of-little-ones). Large many-lined functions with copious branching and conditionals? No, LOLO. Big teams with multi-hour status meetings? No... LOLO. One big integration at the end of the project? No...

That dependency diagram for Servo actually looked relatively clean. You can clearly see which elements are library or utility code. The visualization would probably be better as a three-dimensional model with weighting.

For OO practice, state of the art is SOLID (with a sprinkling of RAII if you happen to be using C++). SOLID leads you straight down the path of LOLO. Small increments FTW.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> That's really great! I went to 'ThoughtWorks On The Beach' in Cologne, Germany, and there was this really nice idea to just print a dependency graph of your project to see if you can still grasp it or if it is getting out of hand.

<comment><USER12> Why is this even a concern? We have tools to walk that graph for us, they're called compilers and linkers. A small codebase can be buggy too.

If you have success with a toolkit and it has good testing and community support, don't walk away because the graph looks weird.

Take all those frameworks and inline them directly into your main package...now your graph collapses....are you better off?

<comment><USER13> Agree. As long as your dependencies are good so you don't need to open the hood then don't worry about it.

I just accept it: I'm not an artist or an F1 driver, elegance and unparalleled performance in the code shouldn't be my concern as long as it is solid and works. I'm in the business of solving business problems, not at scale, not in realtime but on a shoestring budget.

<comment><USER14> Elegance is the quality in code that makes it easy to understand, easy to extend and easy to maintain. It is what makes code solid. Code is art.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Could someone tell me what sort of useful information I can distill out of those graphs?

I'm really not sure at the package level what conclusions we can draw outside of "many circular dependencies - bad".

I don't think the graphs would be very difference in Node for example - <USER2> unless you're doing something like chunked code bundling I don't understand why this information is meaningful.

<comment><USER12> Go doesn't allow circular dependencies so rest easy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> r/golang discussion:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/50uni1/dependency_g...](https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/50uni1/dependency_graphs_of_go_web_frameworks/)

Also relevant: [https://talks.godoc.org/github.com/broady/talks/web- framewor...](https://talks.godoc.org/github.com/broady/talks/web-frameworks- gophercon.slide#1)

</comment><comment><USER17> Go and Node's problem is the dependency hell. Caddy, a simple HTTP 2 webserver, pulled N packages to build. There are Node packages depending on trivial things (remember left-pad?). Too much modularity and relying on others' work sucks. Go's problem is solved by static linking, and Node's by installing all the required libraries in the node_modules directory.

<comment><USER18> > Go and Node's problem is the dependency hell.

Just these two languages? No other languages or systems have problems with dependencies?

> Caddy, a simple HTTP 2 webserver

Caddy is simple to use, but is not a "simple" server. This is a simple server:

      package main

      import "net/http"

      func main() {
          panic(http.ListenAndServe(":8080", http.FileServer(http.Dir("./"))))
      }

> Too much modularity and relying on others' work sucks

One of the things caddy implements is automatic ssl support by depending on a library that implements the acme protocol. This type of thing is not exactly simple or something you really want to be writing from scratch if you don't have to.

The problem with node is that there is no such thing as a javascript standard library and javascript tooling is not great at dead code elimination. This results in many trivial libraries that each contain a single function. Once the tooling gets better at dead code elimination there should be fewer larger libraries.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> What's up with Revel? That's crazy!

<comment><USER20> Syscall package for fsnotify. It's not that weird.

<comment><USER21> Thinking of fsnotify, know that it is configured to only be able to handle a given amount of notifications at a time. I ran into an issue where the number of monitored files exceeded that, and it silently ignored new files that were being created. Learned the hard way: check your OS for how to configure it and make sure you operate within its bounds. Or, said a different way, know your tools before you rely on them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> vhost- No gorilla mux?</comment>