H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy - <AUTHOR> https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it <comment><USER2> In the Netherlands we have had this for years. You login with the tax agency and download a pre-filled tax form. Wages and Income Tax is pre-filled, as are Bank savings and morgages. The pre-filled form is complete for over 90% of people.

The 10% for who it is not can add or correct things that our IRS may not know correctly (i.e. foreign holdings or bitcoins).

You then digitally sign and submit it. It's quite easy to do yourself and I think most people here do (couldn't find a percentage). I could find that 97% is submitted digitally, only 3% is on paper.

We do have commercial offerings, those are used for the more complex scenario's, mostly by accountants and tax professionals

<comment><USER3> Japan is like this, only most regular employees never have to do a thing. Our employers take care of everything and our December pay packets are adjusted so that the correct amount of tax for the year has been paid. Banks also take tax out before paying interest to account holders.

You can also go to a tax office sponsored by your city hall and have a preparer assist you at no extra charge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm surprised the article and comments haven't mentioned CreditKarma's tax solution yet, which is (actually) free. [1] Presumably their strategy is to take the users and data they get from offering free tax filing and use them to advertise lending products. I think that's a sustainable and politically feasible way to get free tax filing, actually; I expect that in ~5 years Credit Karma will have eaten a big part of TurboTax and H&R Block's lunch.

[1] [https://www.creditkarma.com/tax](https://www.creditkarma.com/tax)

<comment><USER5> I have not used CreditKarma's tax product, but I've heard folks say that it calculates some things incorrectly. I think that's understandable for a brand new product, but I'd be cautious about using it this year if you don't (1) have a very simple return, (2) check their work against the IRS forms/instructions and/or (3) check against another product.

(For those who don't want to give TurboTax or H&R money, I've been quite pleased with FreeTaxUSA, which is like $12 for federal and state. It's a bit less user friendly, but plenty good enough if you have some understanding of taxes, and there are way fewer upsells and overpriced crap.)

<comment><USER6> TurboTax found several thousand dollars for me in a fairly complicated tax situation that I was completely not expecting and would never have realized on my own. Even some CPAs I've talked to have said "oh, really?" They've bought some tremendous goodwill from me with that. I'm probably sticking with them forever.

<comment><USER7> This is the exact anecdote for why Intuit would want to keep tax law complicated.

<comment><USER6> How do you think carryover losses of subchapter S corporations should be handled to make them easier?

<comment><USER8> The idea is to make it easier for the average person. Those involved with subchapter S corporations are probably not amateurs and are not the target audience.

<comment><USER9> Taxes are easy for the average person. A basic 1040-A, and certainly 1040-EZ (these two cover most taxpayers), are not difficult to do on paper if you can read and have a little patience.

I'm not defending Intuit here, by the way. But most people don't need what they are selling.

<comment><USER10> You cannot itemize a 1040.

<comment><USER9> True, you need the full 1040 return for that, but most people don't have enough deductions to itemize -- that was my point. The average tax return is a 1040A or 1040EZ with the standard deduction. Those are easy.

<comment><USER11> > _but most people don 't have enough deductions to itemize_

FWIW, $100k in NYC puts your state + city taxes well over the standard deduction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Because of the complexity of tax regulations, I don't think coming up with a competing free/open-source/nonprofit tax preparation service is the right answer to this problem.

Let's consider the positions of all sides:

* The professional tax preparers are worried that they're going to lose business if the government assumes the bulk of the tax preparation work.

* We as taxpayers would prefer that the government pre-fills a return for us, since they already have the information, and lets us file the pre-filled form if we detect no errors. That saves us time and also lets us see what info the government has about our income.

* But we also recognize that it's in the government's interest to maximize the tax we pay, and (ideally) it's in the tax preparers' interest to minimize the tax we pay.

Given all that, if pre-filled returns are unlikely, for political reasons, then perhaps a step up from the current Free File program might work like this:

1) You go to a Free File partner.

2) You authorize the IRS to release all of your tax information to that partner, who pre-fills the forms.

3) The partner walks you through the pre-filled forms, so you can check for accuracy.

4) The partner then does its own checks to discover errors that you might not have picked up on.

5) The partner makes money by selling optional add-ons, such as audit protection services.

This would, at the very least, speed up the Free File process and let you see what info the IRS has. It also ensures (like it or not) that the partners keep getting business (or at least eyeballs to pitch extra services to), and it ensures that your interest in paying the least amount of tax possible is reasonably protected.

<comment><USER13> We (almost) have this in Canada. CRA (our version of IRS) has an Auto-fill [0] option allowing the tax preparation software to import most commonly-used data after authorization. There are some good free tax preparation software, my favourites being SimpleTax (online, web-based) and StudioTax (offline, with option to file digitally or print the completed forms for paper filing). It typically takes me less than 15 minutes to file my taxes.

[0] [https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use- afr](https://help.simpletax.ca/questions/how-to-use-afr)

<comment><USER14> SimpleTax.ca is great. I think they were initially run by just 4 people (Accountant, Designer, Programmer, and Sales).

<comment><USER15> Three of us, actually: product manager/designer, non-practicing tax lawyer, and developer. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> While I am against Intuits efforts, what astounds me most is how LITTLE money is spent lobbying. A few million over a year is peanuts compared to the broader market opportunity. And the implication that Congresspeople are bought off by sums as low as "$32,000" since 2008 seems unlikely. Intuit and H&R may simply contribute to those they know already support their agenda.

<comment><USER17> Members of Congress are amazingly cheap. And this particular issue is one they won't get a lot of trouble over, which makes it even cheaper.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's never wrong for businesses to lobby for their interests. It's wrong when our elected officials bend to those business interest when it goes against the public interest.

<comment><USER17> I completely disagree. It's absolutely wrong for a business to lobby for their interests when it harms others. This is little different from dumping toxic waste into the local reservoir. That would be wrong even if it were legal.

Obviously, a lot of business don't really care about right and wrong, and so they'll still _do_ it. But we can condemn it.

<comment><USER18> I never said we can't condemn the behavior of businesses.

The prime objective for a business is to make money. All the ethics, right/wrongs, etc are things that we expect from the people who run those businesses. But the business is there to make money.

It is up to the people in charge of making choices for society to make the right choices. It's not the responsibility of the business. They have every right to lobby for anything they want.

<comment><USER19> Why is it incumbent on politicians to be moral, "do the right things", but not businesses?

That's a laughably arbitrary choice you're making.

<comment><USER18> Because "morality" is a uniquely human trait, and we elect politicians to enact laws (which are group morality, codified).

We pay businesses for goods and services.

<comment><USER19> So you're just going to pick and choose as it suits you, and then act baffled when people point out the hypocrisy in that course?

Oh.

<comment><USER18> You asked my logic, I gave it to you, you respond and say that I "pick and choose", with sarcasm.

Please stop being a childish.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Filing is always free. _Online_ filing costs money, but you can always mail in a paper form. If everyone did that, the IRS would pretty quickly want to make sure people can file online easily and cheaply.

Stop using HR Block and Turbo Tax. For most people, taxes are not very complicated. The IRS publishes detailed instructions that literally explain what every box means and what should go in it for every form. Just read it, fill it out, mail it in.

<comment><USER21> You underestimate how lazy and unmotivated most people are.

<comment><USER22> You overestimate how easy IRS instructions are. A 1040EZ is easy, but anything beyond that and it becomes very complicated in a hurry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Could we not start a non-profit that builds software as good as H&R block and allows people to file their own taxes?

<comment><USER24> A lot of what H&R Block sells is experience in filing taxes, not just knowledge of how to do it.

I have complex multi-country taxes to file (Canadian living in Canada, but with some income the IRS says is American income). H&R Block have a guy who has handled this exact kind of tax filing hundreds of times before. If I make any mis-steps in filing, the IRS is going to demand I give them thousands of dollars.

I'm not paying H&R Block $600 (CAD) to fill out a piece of paper, I'm paying for the time and experience of someone who won't screw it up and knows how to fight back if the IRS has a problem with it.

The root cause is that our tax system is overly complex and it doesn't need to be. We need to address _that_ rather than build software to help make the complexity continue.

<comment><USER25> > Canadian living in Canada, but with some income the IRS says is American > income…

So in that case, I'm curious what the penalty is for not paying. Presumably the IRS doesn't have the power to garnish wages from Canadian banks…

<comment><USER24> I'm not really enthusiastic about finding out.

It was RSUs granted in 2012, while I lived in the US, that vested over 4 years (the last of which was 2016). That counts as 'American income'. After this year, I don't have to do this ever again and plan to start doing my own taxes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> For anyone who can program (including spreadsheets!), it's not all that hard to file your own taxes the old-fashioned way. To do it digitally, just use [https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/](https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/) and start with a 1040. Read each line carefully and go from there.

The IRS has tons of great resources, and you can even call them up. Each form has a companion instruction booklet (online PDF), and sometimes those instructions refer to an IRS publication with additional clarification. If you can read a technical blog post and follow a clear procedure, you can file your own taxes.

I've been filing taxes the (new) old-fashioned way for my wife and I for the last 3 years. That includes 330+ days abroad (Federal Earned Income Exclusion), a sole proprietorship, an LLC, an ISO exercise (AMT), 3 separate states, and 5 separate cities.

Each time, it has taken me a full 12-16 hours (a solid day or two on a weekend) for federal, multiple states, and multiple cities. It's not the most fun, but by the end of it, I understand our taxes and finances a lot better. We can arrange our situation better going forward. We can keep more appropriate records to make the next year's filings easier. And most of all, I have the satisfaction of not funding an industry that lobbies against my interests.

<comment><USER27> > it's not all that hard to file your own taxes the old-fashioned way

> Each time, it has taken me a full 12-16 hours

You have a strange definition of "not that hard".

This is exactly my experience trying to do it the old fashioned way. The IRS's documentation is written in accountant speak so deciphering what each means is an effort and all of the time it takes adds up. Who else uses the word "schedule" to mean "form"? And then there are so many places where it talks about "qualifying" this or that without telling you how you know if something qualifies.

And that's before you get to the nightmare if you own stocks. My wife inherited some telecom stocks from her grandmother. Her grandmother got them as part of her paycheck when she worked at AT&T. Unfortunately she didn't keep any of the original documentation for them (my wife had to track down the stock management companies and get them to reprint the certificates). These stocks were then of course split across all of the baby bells and merged and split a ton of different ways over the years. Then one of the companies merges and we get a payout for a fractional amount of a share and have to calculate the strike price of the stock for the sale.

As an average person this seems like an impossible task. We just enter 0 and pay a ton of extra tax because how in the hell are we supposed to do that calculation? As far as I can tell we can never sell these stocks.

<comment><USER26> > You have a strange definition of "not that hard".

That's fair, but by-far the hardest thing about filing taxes for us has been prorating our income based on how long we lived in each part-year municipality. Adding to that, some cities/states give you a credit on the taxes, some deduct from the income, and yet others multiply by the number of business days you were a resident. If it was just a matter of filing a 1040, itemizing deductions, and transferring that same info to state/city taxes, it would probably take me 3-4 hours.

I agree that your situation sounds difficult, but I doubt that TurboTax is really making that easier. You likely need to seek out a true tax preparer/accountant. My comment was specifically targeted at those who are using DIY online software... It's just honestly not that much harder to use forms. (I could have been clearer about who my comment applied to.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Both excel at finding ways to gouge customers too. Doing standardized deductions, but happen to sell one stock? Nope. Gotta upgrade to Premier for $30 more.

<comment><USER29> Or just happen to receive dividends...

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I mean, I feel like we should've seen this coming. They chunked off a significant portion of the market, and now they can try to make tax filing more expensive such that they can make more money. It's disappointing, because I love online tax filing, and I just hope their lobbying efforts don't pay off.

<comment><USER31> > I mean, I feel like we should've seen this coming

I would say so, considering it's not their first time doing this:

[https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels- mil...](https://techcrunch.com/2013/03/27/turbotax-maker-funnels-millions-to- lobby-against-easier-tax-returns/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Every time I read that Intuit is lobbying against making Tax filing free and easy, I feel immensely grateful that Indian tax filing is simple and free. Yes, we might lack in 24x7 electricity or the first world infrastructure, but our tax filing mechanism is simple! I hope that the US makes this change to their tax process.

<comment><USER27> People in India pay their taxes? That's news to me.

<comment><USER32> If you believe them, 1-3% people pay taxes and I'm one of them!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Good luck there is already hundreds of companies that offer free e filing, This is a losing proposition for them, competition has kept this free and there is no reason to use either H&R Block or Intuit. There is also no reason to pay a tax preparer or accountant to do your taxes, since you can easily do it yourself. I can understand for companies, and very wealthy people with tons of stocks, bonds, and IRAs etc. Then pay someone, but for the normal person who just works one job and doesn't do much trading or investing, then go onto the irs web site and choose one of the hundreds of free efile companies each year, they often have a limit of 62,000 anyway in gross income, so it's harder to find a free file if you make more money. They are going to try but this is a state by state issue.

<comment><USER33> I used taxslayer the last time I free filed, but I thought that I remember being more than only 13 companies. I don't want the government to fill anything in for me, however, because there's no way that they know everything about my deductions and credits and all the loopholes that many people want to use, if you just work a 9 to 5 job for one company then that sounds ok. I say keep it how it is now, and they've been lobbying for years, they probably think that they have a chance now because the Republican party is all about helping the private sector and having a small government.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Is there anything we can do to fight back?

<comment><USER35> I would gladly match my tax prep fee with a donation to the counter-lobby, if one existed. Where can I buy tax-complexity-offsets?

<comment><USER36> I work for the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan tax policy think tank. As a 501(c)3 we're not allowed to lobby, but we do work hard to show legislators the benefits of taxes that are simple, transparent, neutral, and stable.

[https://taxfoundation.org/principles/](https://taxfoundation.org/principles/)

<comment><USER37> Thank you for the work you do. I disagree with the principle of neutrality because I support Pigouvian taxation. But we could use a lot more of the other three.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I am not sure if it is true still, but I remember "regular" workers in Japan do not have to file tax. They are deducted from their pays and that's it. I think that will similarly apply to a very large number of population.

I also never liked really to use accountants, as they basically ask the same questions that I have to collect myself. Might as well use an online tool. Especially if most of the "W"s are already at IRS/FRB why do I even have to send the copies of them again. Why don't they just give me the partially filed XML/JSON to me to finish it off.

<comment><USER39> This is how it's done in Mexico, most people have no idea how to declare taxes any other way. You can still deduct some things in an itemization like manner if you want or are self employed but otherwise its automatically deducted from your payroll.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I file my taxes for free, easily, by printing out the forms at home and doing them by hand on paper. The only cost to me is for the envelopes and postage. I've done some pretty complex filings over the years, and have built up the knowledge I need to do it well. Also, if I make a mistake the government is usually pretty good about letting me know and I either cut them a check for the difference or they cut me a check. It's actually not that hard, as long as you go through it line by line and read the instructions.

<comment><USER41> As someone who does their own taxes, aren't you in favor of the IRS pre- filling your forms with the information they already know?

<comment><USER40> Yeah absolutely. I'd love a free online solution from the government as it would make my life easier. So far, I haven't been willing to pay out to Intuit or HRBlock for a slight time/convenience savings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Even without the lobbying the public choice aspects of this are bad. I'd like easier tax filing but I wouldn't vote for a politician who I disagreed with about immigration if they supported it. On the other hand I'd bet that most of employees of H&R Block, Intuit, etc would consider tax reform a huge threat to their livelihoods and would rank this as their top priority in choosing who to vote for.

</comment><comment><USER43> They've been doing this for years. When I grumble about capitalism this is the sort of thing that annoys me. People say government is bad because it doesn't have competition and is a van intrinsically violent monopoly, but here we see an example of private actors spending money to make government unresponsive or outright antagonistic to people's needs so as to profit by serving those needs. The argument goes on that it's government's fault for allowing itself to be influenced, but that rests on an increasingly common fallacy of composition as if government were a monolithic entity, which (especially in the United States) is so far from being the truth as to be a lie. The fact is that many actors in government have been corrupted by campaign donations, and that the mechanistic application of an unlimited first-amendment concept of political speech Does Not Work.

A basic problem particular to the United States, in my view, if that while the Constitution treats of both law and equity, law has gained primacy and some parties are heavily invested in keeping it that way, arguing that the courts should be no more than mechanistic deciders rather than moral agents in their own right, most often summarized as 'we're a nation of laws!' \- a curious statement from people who pledge allegiance to the idea of a Republic with _liberty and justice_ for all, as if there could never be any such thing as unjust laws.

It would be interesting to see which members of Congress are most heavily influenced by lobbyists, and examine their public statements to see whether this correlates with hostility towards the judicial branch that checks their 'work.'

<comment><USER44> * When I grumble about capitalism this is the sort of thing that annoys me.*

Is this a problem with capitalism or government? If a company tries to get the gov't to block competition, the correct response is "piss off".

<comment><USER43> If it wasn't clear, I think the problem is capitalism because the would-be monopolist can simply rent a politician to antagonize whoever is in charge until either the policy or the policymakers are changed. Money is not all that talks in elections, but it's a huge factor.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I've been using TurboTax for years, and I think I'm ready to move on if they are going to continue lobbying. What are some other alternatives? I don't mind paying, but I want to make sure it's a service people trust.

</comment><comment><USER46> For three years, one of the departments I worked in had to suffer through massive, monthly paper report distributions. Because the petty-tyrant manager would not let us convert to electronic reporting. Because it would shrink his personal turf.

From business and legal aspects through to recent news on scientific "protectionism", no matter the "professionalism" and "objectivity" attached to the domain, they remain run by _humans._ With all their human traits and foibles -- which tend to come _before_ the "objective."

One reason -- a primary one -- I see for guaranteeing people a basic quality of life, e.g. health care and an at least tolerable retirement. So that they -- maybe -- don't fear change so much. Feel, even, that they get to take part in the change, even when it is not at their own initiative and patent.

</comment><comment><USER47> This was already discussed here in [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150) little more than a week ago.

</comment><comment><USER48> Doesn't surprise me.

That's what happens when companies are legally obliged to provide profit for shareholders.

That's why I highly respect Kickstarter (among many others) who decided to reincorporate at _Public Benefit Company_.

</comment><comment><USER49> > But the legislation would also permanently bar the IRS from offering its own > free alternative.

Why should we as citizens of this great country be forced to give up the right to form a public option? Not quite 1:1 but the analogies to health care do come to mind.

<comment><USER50> What's going to happen to all of the nice employees maintaining HR Block and Intuit's tax filling products?

Should they go become used car salespeople and McDonald's fry cooks?

<comment><USER51> The same thing that happened to the workers who were displaced by the cotton gin, the assembly line and the plow.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Automating inefficient/complex systems is just going to make the same problems happen faster.

Seems to me the first step should be to simplify the tax code. AMT and deductions seem like a good first pass.

</comment><comment><USER53> There is already more than enough bureaucracy involved in paying taxes, creating an ecosystem to make more of that bureaucracy... for a profit.... is not my idea of a good idea.

</comment><comment><USER29> I feel like this comes up every March :)

</comment><comment><USER54> Such bullshit. Can't believe they've gotten away with this for so long.

</comment><comment><USER55> The government would actually love this. Most people are ignorant of tax laws and would just sign a piece of paper to get all of their taxes done. It would be an instant pay raise because most people would never even know if they could write something off. It would also allow them to easily remove the ability to write anything off, without too many people complaining.

What many people don't like to talk about is that yes, places like Sweden have much simpler tax code. But they also removed most ways to actually reduce your tax burden and grow your business (this applies to personal taxes too). You are also required to have a special black box on any credit card transactions, which sends everything straight to the government. This smacks of authoritarianism.

Simplicity might seem better, but it gives us less control over our own taxes.

It's also not really that difficult now. Everyone I know has been doing their own 1040-EZ form since they started to work. It's usually only one or two forms to fill out. If this is too complicated for our society, we truly have problems.

<comment><USER56> Have you ever actually done your taxes by hand? The 1040EZ is supposed to take 7 hours. Back when I did paper taxes and couldn't do the 1040EZ, the 1040 long form took me about 20 hours to do, slightly beating the IRS estimate of 22 hours.

The government has all the information about me. Why do I have to gather it all up and tell them again?

A friend in Finland tells me it takes him 10 minutes to approve the tax documents prepared for him on a Finnish government website. Why can't we do the same here?

<comment><USER57> The 1040EZ is a single page and has only 2 pages of instructions. How does it take 7 hours? [http://datechguyblog.com/2011/04/15/7-hours-for- form-1040ez-...](http://datechguyblog.com/2011/04/15/7-hours-for-form-1040ez- thats-just-not-true/) (Link from 2011 but I don't remember it being much different lately.)

Edit: the IRS now says it takes 3 hours to fill out and submit the form, and 2 hours to collect the relevant paperwork, for 5 total. [https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i1040gi/ar03.html](https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i1040gi/ar03.html)

<comment><USER29> "1040EZ" is an eaaasssy version of 1040. He is specifially talking about filling "1040".

<comment><USER57> The part I'm responding to: "The 1040EZ is supposed to take 7 hours."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Is lobbying just a cute alternative word for "corruption"?

</comment><comment><USER59> In this alternative solution, the government does your taxes, so instead of paying a company/accountant to do it, our taxes / the deficit will pay for it. Someone has to do the work, and if it's not these companies, it will be the IRS. I'd be in favor of simplifying the tax code so everyone could file their own return with confidence!

<comment><USER17> The work is already being done. Try putting some incorrect numbers into your tax return this year. Sometime after you file, you'll probably get a letter informing you of the mistake, telling you how much your actual tax liability differs from what you filed, and either a check or a bill for the difference.

<comment><USER60> IRS checks your math and makes sure all the reports (your copy vs employer/bank/vendor copy) match. They won't tell you which deductions you are supposed to take.

<comment><USER61> > They won't tell you which deductions you are supposed to take.

They will for the most basic personal deductions. I have gotten a correction on a 1040EZ where my deduction was corrected upwards and the refund increased. It is impossible for the IRS or your tax preparer to know things like what kind of automobile deductions you can take for your sole-proprietorship business. This is an impossible problem to solve - every change to the deductions allowed is going to make some people pay taxes on what should be business expenses/losses and/or allow other people to claim legal-but-bogus or just plain fraudulent deductions.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google misses deadline for L.A. city e-mail system - <AUTHOR> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-google-la-20100724,0,4379217.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fbusiness%2Fsmallbusiness+%28Los+Angeles+Times+-+Small+Business%29 <comment><USER2> Does anybody have details on what security requirements remain to be met? I've always thought of Google as being pretty good with data security

<comment><USER3> Not sure, but these two articles do a quite good job of explaining the intricacies of the City of LA's contracts with both Google and CSC. This has been a very high profile contract and I wouldn't be surprised if the issue was primarily that not all of the right people on both sides had a good enough understanding of the current architecture and capabilities of Google/Apps going in, and someone was surprised. It could have been something simple, like the fact that Google doesn't encrypt user data (it obfuscates it), or that they can't guarantee US citizenship of support staff, even if the data is stored within the contiguous 48.

[http://www.infolawgroup.com/2010/05/articles/cloud- computing...](http://www.infolawgroup.com/2010/05/articles/cloud- computing-1/whats-in-googles-saas-contract-with-the-city-of-los-angeles-part- one/)

[http://www.infolawgroup.com/2010/06/articles/cloud- computing...](http://www.infolawgroup.com/2010/06/articles/cloud- computing-1/whats-in-googles-saas-contract-with-the-city-of-los-angeles-part- two/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Huh? [http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/introducing-google- ap...](http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/introducing-google-apps-for- government.html)

One month late does not seem overly drastic in the world of government mandates.

<comment><USER5> Having recently bid on a project for a notorious government agency (cough cough POSTAL SERVICE) you can be assured that _your_ work has to be done and submitted before the deadline and not a millisecond later... but they can take their own sweet millenium in getting back to you (if ever). That's just the way it works.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Distancing.party – Send love and happiness to others around the world - <AUTHOR> https://distancing.party <comment><AUTHOR> Hi all! With all that's going on in the world I thought I'd make a fun little project to make the world feel more connected! It's basically a map with an overlay that allows you to send love and happiness to others :)

I also embedded the lofi hip hop radio to make the site more chill (but can hide it if you want).

Thanks!</comment>


Scientist suing website for whistle-blowers - <AUTHOR> http://news.sciencemag.org/scientific-community/2014/10/researcher-files-lawsuit-over-anonymous-pubpeer-comments

<comment><AUTHOR> FYI, here is a link to a list of the scientist's manuscripts and comments posted about his work.

      https://pubpeer.com/search?q=sarkar&sessionid=D22576A13D18340AA731&adv=true</comment>


The Rise of Contextual User Interfaces - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/the_rise_of_contextual_user_interfaces.php <comment><USER2> One ugly thing rarely mentioned about this "rise of contextual user interfaces" is the decline of providing alternatives for non-javascript users. Try disabling JS and clicking the contextual menu arrow at the book site mention in the article, <http://www.shelfari.com>.

Oh, don't have Javascript enabled?! Forget using all those convenient options! In fact, there's not much of anything you _can_ do on the site w/o JS on and you can especially forget _all_ the contextual menus, which do not seem to have non-JS counterparts at all!

This is an alarming trend, at least to me. Yes, there are times when you can make some convenience functionality in JS and not have to worry about when users don't have it on. But to base an entire menu structure on it, menus that can be accessed no other way? That's sort of a step backwards, isn't it?

They also kind of ripped off the bookshelf design from Delicious Library, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.

<comment><USER3> This is pure ignorance on my part but why do you disable javascript? I can only think of two reasons: a) safety concerns and b) old browser. Both of these can be taken care of pretty easily. Are there other reasons?

<comment><USER2> Many lesser mobile browsers still have limited/no Javascript support. I know quite a few people who disable both JS and Flash because they don't want crazy crap flying around the screen and so forth. Some people are security nuts as well.

It's not a matter of coming up with a lot of reasons, though. The fact is that as a web developer, even today, we cannot safely assume that Javascript will be enabled or available. For some the need for JS far outweighs the consequences of not having it. Take for example an app suite like Zoho or Zimbra. However, even GMail has an HTML version.

Javascript also causes usability and accessibility concerns, especially for those using screen readers, CLI browsers (like lynx), and other non-typical devices to browse the web. There are countless books and essays and blog posts on the subject of Javascript's destruction of usability and accessibility when not used in a progressively-enhancing way.

Personally, I never disable Javascript. I disabled it on that site in order to confirm my suspicion that their entire navigation structure depends on it. However, I do recommend turning off Javascript for a day while browsing the web and visiting your favorite sites. It is truly an eye-opener.

<comment><USER4> I'm sure it's an eye-opener just as browsing with Netscape 4 would be, but I don't think it really means anything.

I gave up on caring about what a site does without JS a long time ago. It's not worth my time to do it just like it's not worth designing cars for people without legs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Office is a completely different kind of application from iTunes and video players. The interface will therefore be different as well. Comparing a product 8 years old to something 8 months old isn't fair, anyway.

Plenty of Microsoft products support contextual user interfaces - all the windows and tabs in Visual Studio can be set to auto-hide and placed on the margins of the window so that mousing over them exposes them (like in IntelliJ IDEA). It works especially well for doing demos and working on low-resolution displays like laptops, but I use it that way anyway because I love the relatively minimalist feel it has (I disable the menu bar, scroll bar, and tool bar in Emacs, too).

Beyond that, observing that Apple pays more attention to the user interface than Microsoft is trite.

</comment><comment><USER6> Amazing how the craptacular iTunes is used as an example of a 'good' UI from Apple. Apple makes some great UI's and software, iTunes is not one of them.

<comment><USER7> How so? I've read some people saying that itunes is crap but have never found a software that was this convenient for managing my music.... So care to explain more in details why you think it's crap? And what other software you would recommend me?</comment></comment>


The Oregon Trail Generation: Life Before and After Mainstream Tech - <AUTHOR> http://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/ <comment><USER2> Something is a bit off by that description.

I was born before 'the tail end of the 70s and the start of the 80s', so by rights I am supposed to be "feeling slightly alienated from [computers] the way Gen X did".

This is because "Gen X individuals were already fully-formed teens or young adults when computers became mainstream."

But that's not true. The 1977 introduction of the Commodore PET, TRS-80 and Apple II marks the start of the home computer generation. I had a computer starting when I was 12, as did many others in the neighborhood. By 1982 and the Commodore price wars, a home computer cost ~$200, which is under $500 in 2015 dollars. I remember reading magazines directed towards schoolchildren which include BASIC programs to type in and run. So I'm pretty sure that computer were "mainstream" before I even became a teen.

Also, Oregon Trail was first written in 1971. But the specific characterization is:

> If you can distinctly recall the excitement of walking into your weekly > computer lab session and seeing a room full of Apple 2Es displaying the > start screen of Oregon Trail

The Apple //e came out in January 1983. By definition, anyone born in 1969 would be a teenager when it came out. But it would lose a period cachet to say this was simply "Apple //" generation. And for some reason the sort of people who write about their early involvement with computer prefer to talk about Oregon Trail, even though "Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego" from the same era made Brøderbund tens of millions per year.

Quoting from [http://www.filfre.net/2014/08/apple-carmen-sandiego-and- the-...](http://www.filfre.net/2014/08/apple-carmen-sandiego-and-the-rise-of- edutainment/) :

> Together Oregon and Carmen became the twin icons of 1980s edutainment, still > today an inescapable shared memory for virtually everyone who darkened a > grade or middle school door in the United States between about 1985 and > 1995.

Carmen is more strongly tied to that specific generation than Oregon Trail, no?</comment>


Dean Allen, R.I.P. - <AUTHOR> https://om.co/2018/01/18/dean-allen-rest-in-peace/ <comment><USER2> I suspect a lot of HN folks don't know who Dean Allen is (was), which is a little unfortunate. He was an early and strong advocate of, well, making the web readable and beautiful -- and of keeping in mind that those two things aren't mutually exclusive, something we've occasionally lost sight of in the years since.

He created Textile, a Markdown-like "lightweight markup" language that actually predates Markdown (and is, by some measures, more powerful). He went on to create Textpattern, a blogging system that, like WordPress, bloomed into a lightweight CMS -- but unlike WordPress, TXP (as its fans call it) has a _much_ better template and extension system. And, Allen created TextDrive, an early shared hosting service that, at least until its unfortunate-in- retrospect merger with Joyent, was a power user dream. (No offense to the folks at Joyent -- well, not much -- but TextDrive became their transparently unloved "low end" brand surprisingly quickly.)

<comment><USER3> The Joyent/TextDrive situation was more difficult than most people dream of. [I worked at Joyent from early 2010 till 2014 or so... post merger, and on into several attempted revivals of TextDrive...]

Dean was much loved by his fans and seen as intractable and 'difficult' by others.

Still - one deserves to rest in peace and not be spoken ill of. Good bye, Dean, and thanks for what you did, and what the space you helped build, has done for several internet communities (textile, textpattern, early Rails, early javascript-on-the-server...) that will yet live on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> dean allen never got the respect or the credit he deserved.

where most people are trying to "monetize" the web, his focus was on making it more "humane". it's still not too late to see that he was right.

</comment><comment><USER5> Textpattern user here.

The upcoming Textpattern 4.7.0 will be released in memory of Dean Allen.

Cheers, Dean.

[https://github.com/textpattern/textpattern/commit/7d41b1ada4...](https://github.com/textpattern/textpattern/commit/7d41b1ada4c48f5eed8b15e3ba5c1e9c4a12f823)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> John Gruber wrote a tribute to Allen as well:

[https://daringfireball.net/2018/01/dean_allen](https://daringfireball.net/2018/01/dean_allen)

</comment><comment><USER6> Bummer. I was a fan. Just went back to look at my welcome email for TextDrive from May 31, 2005.</comment>


Linux Foundation director runs Mac OS? [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f8FPnAsIJ4 <comment><USER2> I am Red Hat's EMEA Evangelist. I do my work on a Lenovo X1 Carbon running Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I also use a privately owned Macbook for video editing and an iPad to watch movies when flying.

There's a good tool for every job. For most of my day to day stuff Linux is an excellent choice. But for some tasks it just is too poor compared to other solutions.

As I must make choices on what to spend my precious time, it will always be in favour of an Open Source solution _where the invested time is worth it_ but sometimes also the pragmatic decision to use something else.

I have always been open about this and I have been attacked, also by Bryan, who blocks me almost everywhere for that.

So be it. I will always happily sit down with developers to explain why I am not (yet) using their solution and I will always listen to their explanations on why I might be having wrong expectations. IMHO especially on the desktop it's a process to get to better solutions, not a binary switch.

Attacking people for not complying with your criteria is simply wrong and messed up. You win by convincing, not by shouting down. Simple.

</comment><comment><USER3> There's probably good reasons why he wasn't running Linux. I'd imagine for things someone in his position would need a Mac would make sense, with better software for making presentations, Office compatibility and video conferencing compatibility, as well as battery life. It's embarrassing, but understandable.

What this really signifies though is how little the Linux desktop means. The Linux desktop does not compete with macOS or Windows - at least not in a business sense. If the Linux desktop suddenly had a dramatic uptick in usage, it's not obvious to me who would suddenly earn more money. Canonical has shifted to focus on servers after bleeding money and AFAIK does not make significant money on the Ubuntu desktop, which is easily the most popular desktop distro. Many developers do not run it on their own desktops, but exclusively use Linux based tech on servers.

As a part time Linux desktop user it has become my impression that the Linux desktop is a community driven (i.e. not profit-driven) project. The only desktops with significant corporate backing (GNOME and KDE) have this backing because their major backers (Red Hat and SUSE) do make some small amount of money selling desktop software, but exclusively in corporate environments (users of RHEL or SLED workstations don't usually have a choice) to companies that also adopt their server products. But it's a small thing for both of them. The Linux Desktop only seems to exist as the result of a gesture of kindness - big companies continuing to put money into a marginal product, and a lot of community effort - and using it also tends to feel that way [1].

Making money with Linux is what the Linux Foundation is about. It's the trade association of people making money with Linux. And that's on infrastructure, not the desktop. The Linux desktop is not part of making money with Linux. The desktop apparently matters so little in this picture, not even the director feels like he should dogfood it.

[1]: Critically: the amount of end users directly paying for their Linux desktop user experience is close to zero. It's a miracle some desktops are as nice as they are, given that.

<comment><USER4> And why would any company want to invest in desktop Linux when it's a bit of a toxic community? Even Apple is not really investing in the desktop anymore. The die hard Mac users are desperate for updated hardware and software these days.

<comment><USER5> > The die hard Mac users are desperate for updated hardware and software these > days.

[Citation needed]

<comment><USER4> Just listen to the podcasts (Accidental Tech Podcast, etc.) that talk a lot about the Mac, they all want updated Mac pros, and before the 2016 MBP, MacBook pros. Not to mention the poor old Mac mini with Haswell CPUs.

<comment><USER5> So your argument is basically "before they updated the macs we wanted new macs".

Apple have released or announced updates to every product line bar the Mac mini.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For the last 10 years at all Linux events the number one laptop is a Mac. How are we to have nice things on Linux Desktop if people don't even know what it feels like.

<comment><USER7> Whoa whoa whoa, your painting with really broad strokes here! Slow your roll a bit there, Mac laptops are definitely not the number one laptop at all Linux events.

From personal experience, I saw very few Macs at SeaGL, there were more at LFNW, but most people were running some Linux distro on their laptop.

<comment><USER8> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the Mac laptops one sees at such events are actually running a Linux desktop. Apart from EFI quirks, Macs (especially older Macs) tend to be Linux friendly which extends their life far beyond Apple's official support lifecycle. You can even keep a PPC Mac alive and useful thanks to Linux support.

I've got a 2006 era Mac mini that is only officially supported to 10.6 Snow Leopard; I've managed to install 10.7 Lion via an installer hack, but it's slow and unstable. Meanwhile the most recent releases of Slackware, Debian, and Ubuntu all run fine and in Slackware's case, blazing fast on that old piece of kit.

<comment><USER6> Linux runs pretty poorly on Apple Hardware. I have tried 2 times and the rule of thumb is 2 generations back has the best support since it takes a while to iron out the bugs. I laugh at people when they say they use Linux on their new Macbooks and they say they have a partition but don't really use it due to something.

Macbook 2016-2017 Not Working

\- Input and Output Sound - Doesn't Work

\- Suspend - Doesn't Work

\- Bluetooth - Doesn't Work

\- Touch Id - Doesn't Work (Not surprising)

\- Wifi on 13.2.and 13.3; 14.2 and 14.3 - Doesn't Work

[https://gist.github.com/roadrunner2/1289542a748d9a104e7baec6...](https://gist.github.com/roadrunner2/1289542a748d9a104e7baec6a92f9cd7)

[https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

<comment><USER8> _" the rule of thumb is 2 generations back has the best support "_

That's exactly what I said, older Macs (as in those no longer supported by Apple) are great candidates for Linux.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Plausible reason: required productivity or meeting software. As a director, he may need to regularly interface with people who don't run Linux friendly software. At work, I was one of the last Linux hold outs. I still had to have a Windows client to connect to many meetings because that software only worked with Windows or Mac. Eventually I gave in and now use a Mac like everyone else at my work.

<comment><USER10> But if you absolutely need to be using a Mac or Windows to do stuff like that, and cant function at that level on Linux, how can it be the 'Year Of The Linux Desktop'?

I'm all for the right tool for the right job, but giving a presentation on the Linux desktop from a Mac is a bit odd. I can see how it could happen though. Maybe he got a Mac a few years ago when he thought the Linux desktop wasn't ready for prime time, now he thinks it is but his personal device update cycle means he's still using the Mac on momentum.

<comment><USER11> This is the year of the Linux desktop? I thought that was 2002. With KDE3 and GNOME 2, for the first time you could mail your elderly relatives unsolicited stacks of CD-Rs and they were running Linux in no time!

On Reddit, someone else with a longer memory thinks it was 1998. [1]

Sadly, I think we're past the peak unless some major new development shakes things up. And, since major new desktop UI developments are more likely to come from Microsoft or Apple than from Linux developers, they are more likely to put desktop Linux further behind rather than breath new life into it.

[1] [https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3038d4/when_was_the_first_year_of_the_linux_desktop/)

<comment><USER12> I don't think anyone here is seriously calling it 'the year of the linux desktop'. They're more calling out the hypocrisy that this is what Jim was actually saying at the time.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1r3Osu1Kg&t=3m26s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x1r3Osu1Kg&t=3m26s)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> meh... I'm a Linux Ops person, and I shift between Linux/Mac/Windows all the time, depending on what I'm doing at that moment. Sometimes Linux is a PITA (ever tried setting up Bluetooth on it?) so I end up using my macbook and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I still love my Linux though.

There's plenty of space for all OSs to fit in this ecosystem. I thought we were over the 'linux rulz, windows/mac sucks' debate. Guess not.

<comment><USER12> I didn't read this as "linux rulz", but more a reminder of "optics" when you place yourself in a position to represent .. anything.

If Tim Cook had absolutely no idea what the competition were doing, you'd start to wonder if that were negligent. But if he showed up for his keynote wearing an Android Wear watch, you'd start to wonder what was wrong with the dogfood.

This is the conflicting signals they're complaining about. If you proclaim that this is "the year of the linux desktop", and do so from an iPad, I think it's fair for me to question why you thought an iPad was the best tool for the job.

(aside: Please let "the year of the linux desktop" die. It's a running joke that's nearly 20 years old now.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Clickbait in my HN?

I advocate open source. I build systems with open source for clients, saving them tons of money. I run Mac OS at work. My personal laptop runs Fedora though.

I use KVM as a hypervisor. I run Turris Omnia for wifi at home. I've made my own OpenBSD router at home.

I'm not a director. I'm a techie-nerd. I still run Mac OS.

This video is complete BS.

<comment><AUTHOR> I actually wrote the link title differently, as I didn't like the clickbait question mark. It was edited by a mod, to be the actual title of the video which is fair, but I can see why it would irk you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is one of the lesser reasons why the Linux Foundation is terrible. The Linux Foundation as a whole couldn't give less of a shit about free and open source software. They welcome companies that violate Linux contributors copyright with open arms.

</comment><comment><USER16> When Alan Mulally took the reins at Ford, he famously kept driving his Lexus at first [1]. It delivered a message - maybe not one that Ford employees _wanted_ to hear, but probably one they _needed_ to hear.

Of course Linux devs aren't employees and the director of the Linux Foundation isn't their CEO. Nonetheless, perhaps there is a challenging but important message here that one could reflect upon quietly rather than ranting about.

1\. [http://www.leftlanenews.com/new-ford-ceo-drives-a- lexus.html](http://www.leftlanenews.com/new-ford-ceo-drives-a-lexus.html)

</comment><comment><USER17> Linux is used by these members of the Linux Foundation [1] because they earn money with it and not because the world is going to be a better place. Among these significant members do you see any company that is building products or services around the Linux desktop and is having a major success with it?

There is no money to make with the Linux desktop and therefore the director of the Linux foundation does not need to promote desktop Linux by using it himself. Just who is going to build the next AWS or Cloudfare with Linux just because he saw the latest Gnome/KDE on some dude's laptop?

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation#Members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Foundation#Members)

</comment><comment><USER18> Can't find a link right now, but Steve Jobs, when he was acting as Interim CEO at Apple, used a NeXT computer for his own desktop -- it was a significant event (maybe the Power Mac G4 Cube?) when Steve changed over to running OS X for his own use.

Perhaps the twelve Platinum Members could donate 1 engineer each (for a team of 12 - [https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/](https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/) ) to spend a year focusing on the issues (Codecs? Desktop tweaks? Interoperability?) to get people like the CEO able to function with 100% Linux. I wonder if SuSE would be functional for the job.

</comment><comment><USER19> The kind of extremist religious zeal exhibited in this video is the worst aspect of the Linux community.

<comment><USER20> extreme zeal is the worst aspect? ok, great.

<comment><USER7> If you don't feel supportive of that zeal, or are on the wrong end of it, extreme zeal can be quite off putting.

That being said, it is far from the worst part of the community, that is by far reserved for the bullshit that some community members have pulled on those of us that are female. I've seen talking down to active Ubuntu Local Community heads at conferences and local happenings put on by said Ubuntu LoCos and it is HORRIBLE. Why the fuck do certain people feel the need to repeatedly harass a volunteer?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I appreciate the call out's intent, but I don't agree that having an OS preference is a negative, even in this case. At work I am required to use Windows even though I have a strong Linux preference. The cross platform experience makes me all the more aware of the differences in use and productivity.

Anyhow, my $0.02

<comment><USER22> He's... the director of the _Linux Foundation_. It's like saying Nadia uses a Mac or Cook uses a Windows machine. I mean, the Linux Foundation is hardly a respected entity, but they could at least try to appear legitimate on the surface!

<comment><USER23> In a way, there is a similarity with Tim Cook. Anything he demos that has a backend server (iCloud, etc) is running on Linux.

Though the "optics" is less of an issue since it's not visible.

<comment><USER24> iCloud is running Linux?

<comment><USER23> Yes, Apple appears to be using Linux as their standard server for anything on the back end.

Here's an iCloud engineer job posting.

[https://jobs.apple.com/us/search?#&ss=Linux&t=1&so=&lo=0*USA...](https://jobs.apple.com/us/search?#&ss=Linux&t=1&so=&lo=0*USA&pN=0&openJobId=58243185)

Edit: Or perhaps you meant the errant typo where I should have said "on Linux"? Fixed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Mac is really the only choice for someone that has to be able to develop and test for everything because Apple products can only be developed and tested on Apple hardware and software, everything else can be run in VMs or dual booted.

</comment><comment><USER26> Wel at least he wasn't running a windows machine....</comment>


A year after launch, Oculus says Quest is starting a VR revolution - <AUTHOR> https://www.protocol.com/oculus-quest-games <comment><USER2> > People in the VR industry sometimes sound like members of a messianic cult. > They have seen the future, and they want you to see it, too. Just put this > headset on.

I don't know if any of it is actually true but that's some fantastic writing, which feels like a breath of fresh air in today's informational overload world.</comment>


RenderMan v19 will have a free license - <AUTHOR> http://renderman.pixar.com/view/DP25849

<comment><USER2> This is a very nice development, but people need to be aware that Renderman doesn't actually render computer graphic images -- it manages the animation process and calls external renderers to create the actual images. You still need a compatible image renderer to make the system work.

Nevertheless, this is quite a change in the animation business -- RenderMan has for some time been regarded as the ultimate animation tool.</comment>


A Decentralized, Peer to Peer Search Engine, hard to stop, censor or corrupt - <AUTHOR> http://yacy.net/en/index.html

<comment><USER2> This is the main reason I would support this search engine. Because it's anti- censorship and hard to stop. They would still need to make it great, but I'm listening.</comment>


App Maker, Google's low-code tool for building business apps, comes out of beta - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/14/app-maker-googles-low-code-tool-for-building-business-apps-comes-out-of-beta/ <comment><USER2> During my first job after university, I spent a bunch of time developing apps using Lotus Notes. Because all of the company's 2000+ employees already used Lotus Notes for email and calendering, deploying these apps was easy.

And in many cases I was able to develop the basic functionality of a workflow app whilst I was talking with the main user to gather requirements. And, although the platform supported a proper programming language (LotusScript, with almost the same syntax as VB), I was often able to build what I needed with just the GUI tools and a few formulae (roughly equivalent to formulae in Excel).

There are a lot of Lotus Notes haters. I think the majority were put off by the email experience, which is very different from other systems.

But the ease of developing, deploying, updating and using internal-only workflow applications was truly awesome.

I hope App Maker is as easy to set up, for simple use cases at least.

<comment><USER3> Hi, I am the guy that came in a few years later and had to reimplement a bunch of custom (undocumented) Lotus Notes applications in order to move actual documents to a proper document management system (with access profiles and searchability) integrating the apps in an intranet portal, allow them to talk with other applications and finally put everything under SSO.

Thank you for the experience.

<comment><USER4> I have also found that when I enter a new workplace, everything done before me was a mess of unwieldy, poorly documented and unstructured code. Worse it uses an old, archaic platform that is long overdue for a complete overhaul.

Then when I arrive, I make everything logical, nice, structured and proper.

After I leave, once again the place falls prey to disorganized minds who take my work and mess it up for flashy new technologies that are not as reliable as what I had done.

For some reason, this keeps happening.

edit: corrected word thanks to @brlewis

<comment><USER5> You are also the people before and after you

<comment><USER6> That's the joke.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I started this as my 20% project many, many years ago. I since moved on to the Dart and now Polymer teams, but I'm very, very happy to see the project launch.

App Maker has been a huge force multiplier internally at Google. Hundreds of smaller internal apps, many catering to very specific business and HR tasks were created by non-engineers, often times by the owners of the process themselves. This self-determinism in custom software - not having to find and convince engineers to build something for you - is really important as software becomes critical to the long tail of business processes that have still been powered by paper, spreadsheets, emails, chat, etc...

<comment><USER8> Congratulations on starting a great project!. I've been experimenting with App Maker for an internal Edu project and it looks great. I noticed that Drive Tables are gone; did they not scale well?

<comment><USER7> Thanks!

Drive Tables is a feature that came and went since I left the team, so I'm not sure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> After more than two decades in the industry, you start getting cynical towards these kind of "programming for non-programmers" tools. All of them are trying to abstract away the complex parts of the programming problem. Guess what, it doesn't matter how many layers of abstraction you pile up, you never abstract away the need for consistent logic. You end up requiring the same kind of people that have the brain skills to actually program.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's all relative. One can argue that "true" programmers program in Assembly and languages like Python or Javascript are just high-level abstractions over Assembly. SQL is another type of abstraction which was originally intended to be used by business users (hence the English-like syntax) yet developers are happy with it now.

There is a need for wide variety of programming tools, ranging from very low- level to very high-level. Any of them is a trade-off in terms of flexibility / cost of development. Picking the right tool for the right job will always be a problem to solve, but having more tools to choose from would never hurt.

<comment><USER10> For a good programmer, the language is just a tool to make what you've just thought out. To me, programming isn't about how to code, but about what to code. What makes somebody a good programmer is the thought process before a single character of code is written.

Someone who assembles an Ikea cabinet isn't necessarily a master furniture maker (altough they could be!). If all you need is a cheap, cookie cutter coffee table it'll not only do, but it'll be the fastest and cheapest option. However, if you're looking for a bespoke cabinet with dovetails, you're going to need a furniture maker.

<comment><AUTHOR> >For a good programmer, the language is just a tool to make what you've just thought out.To me, programming isn't about how to code, but about what to code. What makes somebody a good programmer is the thought process before a single character of code is written.

I tend to agree with it but there is a bit of idealization here. How to code does matter. It helps to not care about RAM barriers, CPU registers, memory pointers, etc. The span of human attention is only so much broad. Constantly dealing with low-level details obstructs seeing a bigger picture. Assembly coders don't think much in terms of type classes or lazy evaluation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I suspect Google App Maker will end up effectively abandoned like Google Web Designer: [https://www.google.com/webdesigner/](https://www.google.com/webdesigner/)

Google dabbles in these tools, but the business case isn't really there. If anything Web Designer should have been more likely to succeed because it had a direct application — designing rich ads — that would benefit Google's primary moneymaker.

<comment><USER12> It's a tool for businesses to get a web site presence so they can pay Google money to promote their sites.

If it makes money, they will keep it. Think about it, Google is paying $300-$400k per engineer, if they have 10 people working on this that's $3-$4 mil per year plus the cost of infrastructure. If the experiment doesn't pan out after a few years, they will kill it.

It's strange to me that HN is a crowd that embraces the idea of "experiment often and toss it if it doesn't work" but then is shocked when Google does the same.

<comment><USER13> > It's a tool for businesses to get a web site presence so they can pay Google > money to promote their sites.

It's designed to make internal tools, read the freaking description.

<comment><USER14> From what I read the applications go beyond just making internal applications, who's stopping anyone publishing the random little tool they made?

By the way, "read the freeking description" is against HN guidelines and a little unnecessary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I look forward to the consulting revenue I'll be making rebuilding the apps created by App Maker in about 3 years, when Google shuts it down.

<comment><USER16> It's a G Suite product, they aren't going to treat it like Allo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I for one am quite excited about app maker. Finally a CRUD tool that links to just about any data source (including spreadsheets), does not require desktop software, generates properly responsive applications, needs no maintenance or upgrades to be secure and will presumably be compatible with Google forms.

<comment><USER18> I think Microsoft PowerApps does all that you described, and has been around for a while now.

<comment><USER19> I recently started learning PowerApps due to work and yeah, this seems like Google's "answer" for lack of a better term. I feel like one of the main draws for PA is that it's got a lot of integration with O365 and the rest of the MS suite, but does Google have the same sort of enterprise presence to make this a realistic competitor for market space?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> In the past years Google has deprecated more than 100 services, so I will never trust them to build any software using their proprietary stack.

<comment><USER21> [citation needed]

<comment><USER20> 24 deprecated services in 2018 alone (in just 6 months...)

<comment><USER22> I'm not seeing 24 products in 2018, but just 1 - Encrypted Search.

I just realized you're counting the Others section and incorrectly lumping them into 2018.

It would seem you also neglected to read Wikipedia's banner above the Other section that stated:

 _This section is missing information about the discontinuation date of each product in this section. Please expand the section to include this information. Further details may exist on the talk page. (October 2013)_

<comment><USER20> but still more than 100 discontinued services...

<comment><USER22> What does that have anything to do with your original comment? You incorrectly stated there were 24 in 2018 when in actuality there was only 1.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> > any other database that supports JDBC

Did they implement the JDBC p̶r̶o̶t̶o̶c̶o̶l̶ API in JavaScript?!

EDIT: Apparently they did exactly that, [https://developers.google.com/apps- script/reference/jdbc/](https://developers.google.com/apps- script/reference/jdbc/)

<comment><USER24> JDBC is not a protocol, so they probably just created a binding between Java/JDBC and whatever AppMaker uses

<comment><USER23> Yeah, I express myself badly, still they fully replicated the API in JavaScript.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> How will this not become hell on earth for software developers, al-la Microsoft Access, Oracle APEX, etc.. ??

<comment><USER26> If it doesn't lock in data access like MS Access did, it could be seen as just an interface designer. Whatever data it gets fed, could be migrated from a simple database to a proper backend if such need arises. It could even coexist with other front-ends. As long as it doesn't let too much business logic to be programed into it without a simple way to extract it, it shouldn't be a problem.

<comment><USER27> The problem isn't that Access locked in data, it was that people stuck with MS JET engine instead of hooking ODBC server properly - then Access became a funky, useful UI tool for databases.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Isn't Google scripts, forms, tables and drive already a Google App maker?

<comment><USER28> Google is a huge company. You might wonder what that has to do with anything, but ... after years of frustration let me just state with absolute certainty:

With VERY few exceptions (like, say, the build system or some backend infrastructure) EVERY Google project has essentially it's own private structure, base libraries, framework and things that look extremely close ... aren't really. Also, even components of the same app don't use the same framework throughout. It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't just the case that Docs and Sheets aren't written in the same language but that the drawings you can embed in both are implemented in yet another language.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Don't want to sound overly negative but for some reason this makes me think of SharePoint. I'm sure it's nothing like it though :)

<comment><USER28> This is Google. We know it'll be one of two things :

1) it'll be convoluted like you wouldn't believe, and enforce an entire nonsensical 20-tier architecture on you. It'll be forced on everyone for decades and grow and grow and grow, with 20 different versions deployed which all support and/or require seemingly random combinations of those 20 tiers (ie. android)

2) It'll be great, fantastic, simple and work ! Oh, and it'll be canceled before sundown.

And of course there will be absolutely no-one who ever answers a single question about it, ever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> In many ways I think this is what Microsoft Access should've been.

<comment><USER31> Well, its more like what Sharepoint tries to be.

<comment><USER32> It's what SharePoint _is_. Except that by the time you've fought through the awful tooling, horrible performance and useless documentation just to do simple things you've forgotten (or no longer care) about what the original problem you were trying to solve was.

This looks much better. Hopefully it's not a Wave-esque Google hobby.

<comment><USER31> I agree with you entirely. The awful tooling and and useless documentation are exactly why it is trying yet failing.

The whole thing feels like some kind of amateur hobbyist bit of software where people have kinda-sorta implemented a feature, then got bored and wandered off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I've built a production app internally with app maker and it's quite nice, but you do need to know more than the bare basics of SQL/JS to really be effective with it.

</comment><comment><USER33> Says it supports CloudSQL? Does it support Cloud Datastore / Firestore or are they on the road map does anyone know?

</comment><comment><USER34> I wonder if Google will deliberately feed the App Maker backlog with features that enable building functionalities from apps that are hosted on Google Cloud? That could undercut some of their customers to the benefit of other customers.

</comment><comment><USER24> My first IT job was building apps with Oracle Forms. To this day I miss the ease of creating a UI and some simple database tables with it.

Sadly this requires a GSuite accounts, so it is hard to try out.

<comment><USER35> You'd like Salesforce

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Quick Base has been running its no code platform for almost 2 decades and does not tie you to an information or vendor silo - happy to integrate with many cloud and data integrations.

</comment><comment><USER37> This seems to be a big similarity to Zoho with their Zoho Creator software

</comment><comment><USER38> Tired of having the services and products you like deprecated and abandoned? Now you can build your own services on a _platform_ that will end up deprecated and abandoned!

</comment><comment><USER39> Another iteration of the _" managers creating programs by connecting boxes"_ pipe dream.

I pity the engineers in advance, whose job will be rewriting the horrendous "enterprise apps" this tool will leave behind at the end of its life.

Time is a flat circle.

</comment><comment><USER40> Yay, another product Google will pull out few months after businesses start using (depending on) it.</comment>


Japanese Web Design: Why You So 2003? - <AUTHOR> http://www.tofugu.com/2012/05/15/japanese-web-design-why-you-so-2003/

<comment><USER2> Seems the text heavy, chaos, crowded design mirrors the Japanese life-style? crowded cities, most of the people in metros. May be, that is why it seems acceptable. And also having lot of content, avoids page-refreshes on tiny mobile devices where the web-adoption was more in previous years.</comment>


Redbus.in acquired for $138M - <AUTHOR> http://www.nextbigwhat.com/redbus-naspers-acquisition-details-297/ <comment><USER2> Redbus is a fantastic company and a true example to Indian entrepreneurs. I remember being at a meeting with Phanindra Sama (the CEO) and when asked why he didn't ask bus operators to sign an exclusive agreement with him, he replied that even if he had that in hand, if he didn't provide value, things would break down. Imagine if craigslist was run this way!

He had also mentioned car rental and hotels as potential future markets 5-10 years down the line, and I hope this acquisition enables him to pursue those fragmented markets!

</comment><comment><USER3> As a regular user of Redbus.in at my small firm, I have been a huge fan of what they've managed to accomplish with what is essentially a chaotic delivery layer. Big ups to the team at Redbus. Keep on truckin' :)

</comment><comment><USER4> For those that don't know, Naspers also owns 35% of Tencent. They are heavily investing in internet companies in emerging markets.

</comment><comment><USER5> This is good startup story for India. Exits in India are rare but not unheard of, as claimed by article. There are some Indian company products acquired without creating much buzz here. For example, Pramati's Qontext acquired by Autodesk. Yasu acquired by SAP. UserRules acquired by some company(not sure)

</comment><comment><USER6> Congrats to the Redbus guys. They were the team that got selected for the TiE EAP program in 2008 where I had pitched my idea too. Amazing to see that in 5 years, they've built a company that's worth 138M. Awesome stuff!

</comment><comment><USER7> congrats to redbus, seems like a big exit for a Indian firm. Though relatively to Flupkart, the presence of redbus, hasn't been felt till now. Lets hope it changes.

</comment><comment><USER8> thats good news.hope they will continue delivering quality bus booking service.

</comment><comment><USER9> From what is being divulged, and from the fact that Phani is suddenly a former CEO, not 'current until', during the time of _the deal_ this seems more like a _distress_ sale or a _forced one_. Hope this is not true, but so it seems.

Redbus was a splendid initiative and I have experienced bus ticketing on it myself. Must congratulate the team that brought it so far... it's not an easy journey given the thick and thin of internet in India.

<comment><USER10> Seeing how they were rumored to be raising money at a lower valuation than this 3 months ago[1], it's hard to see how this could be a distressed sale.

[1] [http://www.business-standard.com/article/finance/redbus- in-b...](http://www.business-standard.com/article/finance/redbus-in-being- valued-at-110-mn-113032700140_1.html)</comment></comment>


NASA publishes photos that prove we landed on the moon - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14813043

<comment><USER2> There will never be enough proof for those that rather have a conspiracy.</comment>


How One Site Dealt With SQL Injection Attack - <AUTHOR> http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-one-site-dealt-with-sql-injection.html Ellen Messmer writes on NetworkWorld: The massive wave of SQL injection attacks that started striking Microsoft-based Web sites around the world more than a week ago claimed as one of its victims Autoweb, a U.K.-based advertising and marketing site. … <comment><USER2> NO BLOG SPAM, please. Directly link to the article: <http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/050108-autoweb.html></comment>