Show HN: Monthly subscription airline with SFO-LAX flights starting at $78 - <AUTHOR> http://www.jumpdriveair.com <comment><USER2> Maybe a good idea, but the site does a bad job of selling it.

The front page starts with a big rant about how bad existing airlines are. That's not how you sell things. You should focus on what you do, which is SFO- LAX flights through private terminals on a monthly subscription.

The private terminal is a huge win -- it saves a good hour on travel. But that's buried in the FAQ. You should redesign so that all of the following are on above the fold on the home page:

\- SFO-LAX

\- Monthly subscription $79/6 flights

\- Private terminal

\- Book online last minute

Don't pretend to be a full-service airline except in the fine print it says only SFO-LAX. SFO-LAX is exactly what thousands of people need. For people who need something else, you shouldn't lead them on (but you should let them give you their email address and desired routes so you can let them know when you add them.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the great feedback. This was our site's first draft so we really appreciate your comments. We'll definitely update it and keep your points above the fold on the homepage. We weren't aware that the private terminals are such an appealing feature to people, but that aspect has been a feature that we've been receiving a lot of positive feedback about so we appreciate you pointing it out. Thank you again and we'll make those changes by tomorrow.

<comment><USER3> Minor optimization for the phone image? Have it show the next flight that could reasonably be booked if I had the app installed, rather than one from 2017. As in, if you had this app, you could be on the (it's 2.05 right now) 2:30 pm flight, just press this button. Helps drive the immediacy and ease home.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, great idea. We were actually thinking about an interface like that. Thanks for the feedback

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Does this actually exist, or are you gauging interest?

Don't mean to rain on the parade, but you were basically asking if anyone on HN was interested in helping you build this a month or two ago. [0, 1]

It doesn't seem plausible that you'd be able to arrange terminal space, airplanes, pilots, insurance, etc. so quickly. Would be happy to be wrong though, as I fly this route several times per year. Maybe I'm missing something about how this is all organized.

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15927182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15927182)

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15785691](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15785691)

<comment><USER5> Going to second this comment. I can't find any signs that this company has even been incorporated, which would be necessary for them to sign the contracts related to arranging terminal space, airplanes, etc.

Also of note: the first private terminal in the US opened at LAX in May 2017 and charges $2200/month for membership. The LAX regional terminal is AA only...There are a number of small terminals for regional airlines south of the main terminal which are already fully occupied for exclusive use of the renting regional airline. [edit: Imperial Terminal is available for this type of GA usage. It has no seats and is basically a hangar with space for portable chairs, and does not provide a TSA checkpoint.].

Looks like this is just intended to drum up interest.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This looks pretty cool. If I was foolish enough to live in the Bay area and had reason to visit family in the LA area I _might_ sign up for this. If you have more than two weeks notice you can do better with Southwest though. They've got OAK-to-BUR (and vice versa) at $55-$67 depending on the day of the week.

That said, why LAX and SFO? Why not pick cheaper airports like OAK and BUR? I'd imagine the runway fees would be less too. Plus just driving out of LAX at a reasonable time of day adds an hour to any itinerary.

EDIT: After reading other comments and skimming through the FAQ I think this website needs to be re-done. The landing page should say in bold letters " _Last minute. Private terminal. Zero lines!_ ". Other airlines might match you on price if booked in advance but they can't win on intangibles like skipping the sardine line and government mandated TSA massage.

<comment><USER7> I'm constantly tempted by Surf Air as I've lived as close as 2mi from San Carlos airport (KSQL!) and now live 6mi from it, and my parents live 2 miles from Palomar Airport (KCRQ) which is a good 30 minute drive (in GOOD traffic; their commute traffic often puts the Bay Area to shame). Even with the slower flying time it would save me hours. Unfortunately, I don't "commute", so it's hard to justify a price nearing $2k a month. I like that these options exist, though, in case (god forbid) we find ourselves in a family health situation where regular trips become required.

<comment><USER8> You could get into partial plane ownership and fly yourself for far less than their $1,950/mo fee. The upfront investment is higher since you'll need a pilot's license. :-)

<comment><USER7> I am actually slightly tempted. It's of course not a cheap option, but I think one thing putting me off is my impression that, if I rented a plane, I'd be paying for the rental the entire time it sits on the ground at my destination, which is hard to swallow.

<comment><USER8> That's a common misconception. Plane rental is charged by the time the magnetos are energized which in turn is measured by the Hobbs meter. Having said that, many places often have a minimum number of hours per day to prevent someone taking a plane all weekend for two billable hours.

Flying as a hobby is a lot like boating - the happiest day of your life is when you sell your boat/plane. The second happiest day is when you buy it. It can be woefully expensive because much like a house it's easy to do just one more thing / buy just one more gadget and think well if I just spent a little bit more I could have Y instead of X.

I wouldn't discourage you against taking a discovery flight but I'm saying this in the interest of full disclosure. Back when I learned to fly there was a running joke about the $100 hamburger because unless you had specific goals for your license that's all it was good for - a quick jaunt to the next town over to keep current and have some grub. Considering rental prices these days I guess that's more like a $300 hamburger.

If you learn to fly, you'll pay a rate based on the type of airplane and whether aviation gas is built into the price. After a very quick Google looks like in California prices start at $130+/hr. You need 35-40 hours* just to get the first of your licenses which will let you fly a small plane in good weather. Realistically once you have a ticket any place renting a plane will want you teach you how to fly the model they're renting you, so tack on a few hours more to get signed off in the plane you want.

Once you rack up enough club membership dues or hours in a rented plane you'll start thinking it would just be easier to own. That's when things get really interesting because you have to decide if this is a hobby or a serious hobby.

*When I got my PP-ASEL, you had two choices - a rigorous, structured 35 hour course or a looser 40 hour minimum course. That's 40 hours of flight time and instruction, not total hours in a classroom. Considering you're a hacker news poster I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you have the disposable income, education and predisposition to dedicate a couple of weeks to doing nothing but learning to fly. If you can manage that I recommend the 35 hour course: it's intensive but the cheapest option because you won't be paying by the hour to train and retrain skills that get rusty by only flying once or twice a week. Flying is very much a mechanical skill and it has to become second nature before you can learn to multitask and take care of all the other things you need to do, otherwise you're perpetually "behind the airplane."

Anyway again if you decide to seriously pursue it I'd say try a discovery flight first and then dedicate a chunk of time to knock it out. It is the fastest way to get it done, which means it's the cheapest way to get it done.

<comment><USER9> Also consider that if you want airline-like regularity, you need an IR (Instrument Rating), which is sometimes (usually?) harder and more expensive than the PPL itself. Then you want to consider if you want to fly your family in IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) at night. Many people including me would only want to this is a twin engine aircraft or at least an aircraft equipped with a ballistic parachute (this means a Cirrus SR22 or similar). Anyway, both options is at 2-4x the cost of a the typical $130/h rental.

Not as of a big issue in CA, but in the winter, you also probably want to cruise above the freezing level, so add to this a FIKI (Flight Into Known Ice) certified aircraft. Again, more $$$.

In the end though, flying your own aircraft is an immensely gratifying experience on many levels, and despite all of the caveats above, I wholly recommend getting your PPL.

Yes, with just your PPL in hand, you might have to wait out some weather or choose conditions based on your experience and equipment, but as long as you know those limitations, it's actually not a big deal, especially in California.

<comment><USER8> All excellent points... particularly the part about how gratifying it is to fly. It is amazing.

I just wanted to expand on the part about getting your ticket in 35 hours by doing it via Part 141: if you can hack it then you'll be better prepared for instrument training which (IMHO) is also structured and rigorous. And as you stated requires even more hours, so anything to help reduce costs is (again, IMHO) welcome.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I can't tell if this is a real business or not.[1] The website appears to be a placeholder intended to test the market demand for their product.

[1] Jumpdrive doesn't appear to be incorporated or organized in California or Delaware, which is a necessary predicate of them having signed contracts with regional airlines or with LAX/SFO for private terminal space.

</comment><comment><USER10> I applaud anyone trying to enter the market but the site as-is leaves a lot of questions open to a first time visitor. At first I assumed this was some kind of discounting system on top of the commercial operators. Reading through the comments here it seems they are flying their own planes. Given that they're a company I've never heard of, and flying their own planes, it would be nice to at least see the planes in their livery.

The landing page featuring minimalist text with lots of whitespace might be the popular thing to do for upstart software companies but a company in the business of physically moving people with their own planes shouldn't appear so sterile, IMO. JetSuiteX ([https://www.jetsuitex.com](https://www.jetsuitex.com)) and SurfAir ([https://www.surfair.com/](https://www.surfair.com/)) are in more or less the same market and make me feel much more comfortable about considering their services.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. We're in the process of redesigning the site. Lots of people have pointed this out, so we appreciate the comments.

<comment><USER10> You betcha, sure thing. Like I said, I'm happy to see new entrants into the market and wish you the best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Could we get a title on this that's a little more accurate? It doesn't appear like this is an actual service but an effort to gauge interest which makes the title fraudulent.

</comment><comment><USER12> For folks seeking some context on why LAX-SFO route, here's a list of busiest air routes in the world based on passenger volume :-

1.Jeju-Seoul

2.Melbourne-Sydney

3.Mumbai-Delhi

4.Fukuoka-Tokyo

5.Rio de Janeiro-Sao Paulo

6.Sapporo-Tokyo

7.Los Angeles-San Francisco

8.Brisbane-Sydney

LAX-SFO is the 7th most busiest.

Source : [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/world- s-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-08/world-s-busiest- air-routes-tiny-island-beats-london-new-york)

<comment><USER13> Interesting, I hadn't realized it's that scale.

And a good reason for California to invest in high-speed rail, in my own opinion.

<comment><USER14> I took the opportunity to go from San Francisco to Los Angeles via the Coast Starlight train (and then from Los Angeles to San Diego via the Pacific Surfliner) and it was an amazing trip. I obviously could've saved so much more time flying, but I had a day to kill, and taking the train in a private sleeper roomette seemed like the best way to do it. I would definitely make that trip again (and the included meals were great).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I could see Aviato moving into this space...

</comment><comment><USER16> Hmmm, so after reading the FAQ and the comments, I don't really see what the advantage here is over just flying one of the major carriers.

Changing the pricing model is useful, but only really for people who cannot predict their schedule enough to get the lower rates from the commercial carriers. It seems to me that people who fall into that class, and yet are willing to subscribe to a few flights a month might not be super common. Particularly once the service starts to fill up, and you can't guarantee a seat at the last minute.

The private terminal thing might be helpful, but frequent travelers are going to have already bribed the government to skip the full security line. Last time I was in SFO the precheck line only took me about 2 minutes. If I had checked in early, and only had carry on luggage, I could probably have gotten to the airport when boarding started and still made my flight (haven't went through LAX security in a few years can't comment there).

So, while the GA/private terminal would be enticing if it were operated like a charter plane (aka no TSA to worry about at all), and the flights were small enough they would be willing to hold it if I was running 5 mins late, but it doesn't appear to be the case. The regional jets are much to large for that kind of behavior, and given that its not a business jet, the seating is going to be as miserable as it is on the larger carriers.

To me it sounds like they are trying to reinvent the SW airlines of the 1970's which operated more like a traditional bus service (lots of frequent flights, last minute ticketing, etc) but without the huge profit margins on tickets that SW was competing against.

So I would expect that to really lure people they need something closer to the full charter experience (business class seating at a minimum). For that, I suspect people might be willing to spring for a few extra dollars (bus class tickets are probably easier to compete with given they still tend to have larger margins). Large corps that like to fly their plebs in economy seats probably aren't going to spring for the extra ticket price (besides getting into the booking system might be challenging).

Anyway, good luck...

</comment><comment><USER17> Any plans on allowing "plus one" guests? For example, a subscriber may use the service for $WORK most of the time, but occasionally the SO may tag along by paying a one-time ticket, perhaps at a slight premium.

</comment><comment><USER18> I applaud the audacity of starting an airline from scratch, considering it's way up there in terms of capital requirements and regulatory burden, and the industry has been losing money in the US, collectively, since the Carter administration.

But it needs to be said that SFO<->LAX is, at just 300 miles, and with the high demand shown by such startups, a perfect example of everything that is wrong with transportation in the US.

Compare Berlin<->Munich which happens to be almost exactly the same distance: even with some political compromises requiring the trains to stop in towns along the route that planners would rather have avoided, total travel time is only 3 1/2 hours. Train stations are also in the middle of each city, saving you about an hour of time on each end. And you can just hop onto any train without booking in advance, without going through security, without discarding your bottle of water, without the yoga-like contortions of economy class, and without the existential threat of not having internet for two hours.

That even an environmentally friendly US state such as California can't get its act together, and instead "solves" its traffic needs in the most resource- intensive ways available, is a scathing indictment of the US' lost faith in the power of government to solve collective action problems.

<comment><USER19> I'm a fan of rail in general, and the German system is fantastic. But the LA and SF Bay Areas consist mostly of sprawl and don't have good transit to begin with. You need to drive to get somewhere fast. In those circumstances, taking off from the burbs is a feature, not a bug.

<comment><USER20> But this service wants to fly from LAX which is not really in the suburbs and not always easy to get to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It doesn't show a sample flight schedule. I want to sign up, but want to know what times/days flights usually are.

<comment><AUTHOR> We're planning on flying Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. And we'll have about 6 flights a day departing from each location. This is just the schedule we'll start out with and we'll add more days and times as we grow.

<comment><USER22> I think a lot of commuter workers tend to fly Thursdays and work remote on Fridays. I'm surprised that's not a higher value day than one of the weekend days for your target.

<comment><AUTHOR> Friday is actually the day most business travelers fly. Thursday evening has demand as well so we're looking into possibly offering some times Thursday evening too. Thanks for your feedback.

<comment><USER23> I was a consultant who flew every week for 3 years. All consultants fly out on Thursday late afternoons and early evenings. If you want to attract those travelers, you need to fly out on Thursdays.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Will your schedule support working day trips? Meaning, a flight leaving early enough to be wheels down by 9 AM at the destination, then a flight out around 4-5 PM on the same day? Do you have plans for working with a rental car service at the private terminal?

</comment><comment><USER25> Who flies the planes themselves - do you contract with the same airlines who run regional flights for the national carriers? (What's the planes' livery?)

Part of why I'm curious is that I've noticed that the national carriers in the US have an _extremely_ safe record of late - I believe there has been one death from 2002-present from the national carriers (Southwest 1248 slid off a snowy runway in Chicago, hit two cars, and killed one child), but there have been a many fatal accidents with regional or private carriers, so I'd like to know who the actual operating carrier is and what their safety record is.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, we contract with regional part 121 airlines that fly and operate the flights. Skywest, Express Jet, etc. These are the same airlines that partner with Delta, United, and American Airlines to run their regional routes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> The stuff on the homepage is not consumer content. That is stuff for pitch decks and Powerpoints to investors. Tell the consumer what you are offering and after digging, you guys actually seem to have a great offering.

</comment><comment><USER27> At first glance this sounded like the rebirth of the proposed restructuring of the commercial airline industry as covered in the book "Free Flight: Inventing the Future of Travel"[0], by James Fallows (2001). Back then the business model was to marry a fleet of very cheap passenger jets[1] with the huge number of little used airports dispersed around big cities. The book mentions two companies as leading the industry, Cirrus Design[2] and Eclipse Aviation[3]. The startup collapsed during the financial crisis. I remember reading an analysis of the difficulty of scheduling individual pickups to thousands of small airports, essentially a full blown traveling salesman problem that had to be updated in real time with each new reservation. The promise was to cut an hour or so off the total travel time by using small airports near the customer's home and destination.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/Free-Flight-Inventing-Future- Travel/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Free-Flight-Inventing-Future- Travel/dp/1586481401)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_light_jet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_light_jet)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Aircraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Aircraft)

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Aviation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_Aviation)

</comment><comment><USER28> It blows my mind that there's market for this kind of frequent air travel when we have such a climate crisis on our hands.

<comment><USER29> ALL transport accounts for only 14% of emissions; beef and electricity generation are where the big gains are. We already have the technology to produce electricity without greenhouse gasses, we do not have the technology to physically move as fast and as far as airplanes without burning fossil fuels.

People can choose to take some personal responsibility and sacrifice air travel (and more importantly beef!) for the sake of the environment but we have so much ground to gain at a systematic level that I don't think we need to be too overzealous about behavior change at this stage in the problem.

Voting for politicians that will speed up the transition away from coal to renewables will have a far greater impact on the environment than personal lifestyle choices ever will.

[https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas- emiss...](https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions- data)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I imagine balance will be tricky. Too few flights and customers get frustrated because they can't get seats or decent times. Too many flights and you lose money. This is probably why other airlines have peak/offpeak pricing in the first place to solve the load problem.

Whats the minimum number of months to subscribe for?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, balance is very tricky, which is why airlines utilize dynamic pricing. We are working on a model that balances supply/demand.

No minimum number of months to subscribe for.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> It's nice to see an aviation startup that's not just Uber For Airplanes.

<comment><AUTHOR> Uber for planes seems pretty impossible :)

<comment><USER32> Depends on how comfortable it needs to be.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to- air_recovery...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulton_surface-to- air_recovery_system)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hahaha

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I don't really see how the economics would work out - planes have a certain cost to fly and the cost per passenger cost is that divided by the number of passengers on the flight. Discount airlines like Ryanair work by selling some seats very cheap to fill the plane and some expensive like last minute and peak time flights to make a profit. If you charge a flat lowish amount the popular times will be full and the less popular empty leading to poor utilisation and a higher average cost and you'll lose money.

Dunno if I'm missing something here?

</comment><comment> d--b Meanwhile, there are 3 flights from Paris to Rome on easyjet for tomorrow all priced at 100 euros. Yeah, maybe you get some extra fees, but the subscription model is pretty constraining as well.

</comment><comment><USER34> Looks cool - I'd probably use this if I still lived in LA.

Found a typo on your FAQ:

"Our fares our much lower than a private plane service." \- that second "our" should be an "are"

</comment><comment><USER35> It doesn't say what type of aircraft guests would fly on.

<comment><USER36> It does, but it's hidden at the bottom of the FAQ [1] page. I agree with the other comments about how they could do a better job of surfacing this kind of information.

> We fly the beautiful Bombardier CRJ Series and Embraer ERJ Series. These are > regional planes with 50 to 100 passenger seats. These planes are the same > planes that are used by United Express, Delta Connection, and American > Airlines.

[1] - [https://www.jumpdriveair.com/faq-1](https://www.jumpdriveair.com/faq-1)

<comment><USER37> Adding a photo of the actual aircraft would also be nice. From the website it's hard to tell whether this is a real business that's currently in operation, or just a site mock-up. Have you actually started flying yet? I can't tell.

<comment><USER38> And they should just come straight out and explain how the flights are operated. Sublease of the aircraft? Block-booking of seats on scheduled commercial services? Commercial charters?

The more they hide the less confidence people will have in them.

The contact name in the WHOIS appears to be an attorney.

I don't see any entry for JumpDriveAir or variations thereof in the ICAO operating agency list ( Doc 8585 ) so I assume they're not the carrier themselves.

<comment><USER39> I'd wager that at this moment they've not done much more than ideation and (I pray dearly) feasibility studies.

We won't even be able to start arguing whether this idea has wings until the first wheels leave the tarmac.

<comment><AUTHOR> We're in the process of finalizing arrangements with our regional airline partners to operate the flights. We'll have our first flights within the next few months.

<comment><USER11> > We're in the process of finalizing arrangements...

I find it a bit misleading that you don't state this more clearly upfront.

> We'll have our first flights within the next few months.

... if everything goes as expected, if not then you'll be liable with a whole bunch of angry first customers.

<comment><USER40> Huh? We're signing up to be notified, we're not handing over cash. They'd be useful if they worked out, so I threw a disposable e-mail address in the hat.

If I get an e-mail in a couple of months that this works, awesome, I'll give them a spin. If not, oh well. But why would their customers be _angry_? It's pretty clear it's not an existing service yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Why would you not offer an 8 flights per month plan? I imagine the most popular use case is people who need to fly in Monday morning and out Friday evening.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's correct about the use case. We're thinking about offering 8 flights/month but didn't think there would be that much demand for that option. Could be wrong though

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Question in my mind as a user of LAX: WHERE is the private terminal and does it get me out of the nightmare of LAX evening traffic? That would be a strong point in your favor. And also, does rideshare pick up there smoothly? Will you be working with Uber/Lyft to make sure that they are fully aware of the location? What about rental car services, are any accessible from the private terminal?

</comment><comment><USER43> The screenshot shows 55 minute travel times, is that real? Current airlines generally schedule 1h25 to 1h45.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, that's real. SFO to LAX takes about 55 minutes in the air. We have faster turn around than major airlines when we're on the ground because of the private terminals

<comment><USER43> So the times are from takeoff to landing, not door closing to door opening? And where is there space at SFO for a new private terminal? :)

Edit: Ohh I didn't realize that Delta just stopped their shuttle [1] ... are you just using those gates?

[1] [https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/Routes-End-of-Delta- We...](https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/Routes-End-of-Delta-West-Coast- shuttles-12460635.php)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I'd love a service like this if it came up to pdx. Quite a few lax-pdx flights every day so there should be demand too. Probably only a fraction of sfo-lax but if you add in seattle there's quite a bunch I'd imagine.

</comment><comment><USER45> So its Part 121, but with private TSA screening and boarding on the General Aviation side of the airports? Are you operating the planes, or is SkyWest of someone like them operating the planes?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, that's correct.

We're not operating the planes. We have part 121 regional airline partners that are operating the planes. We're providing them with the schedule and they operate the flights. We act as an agent for the passengers.

<comment><USER45> Do the planes have your own livery, or that of your regional partners?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Do unused flight credits roll over?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, they don't roll over. But we're working on a feature where users can transfer unused flight credits to family and friends.

<comment><USER47> That's a major win against traditional airlines if you could transfer your flights to someone else.

I think you wanted to make sure the best price option is in the middle but it threw me off a bit. Consider putting them left to right, from worst deal to best? Also, consider using numbers instead of words: 2 flights, 4 flights, 6 flights?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> UI Design: Why is there a blog link at the top that isn't clickable?

</comment><comment><USER49> You want to change the airline industry? Let's talk. That's my plan.

</comment><comment><USER50> This could be a nice way for a parked plane to help pay for itself in part.

</comment><comment><USER51> lol SFO - LAX flights are OFTEN cheaper than that or as cheap.

Unless.... are these roundtrips? I want to assume so but that would be a bad assumption to get wrong!

Fix the site.

<comment><AUTHOR> These are one-way flights. Flights between SFO-LAX are sometimes cheaper if you book weeks in advance. The point of Jumpdrive is you still get a cheap fare without booking weeks in advance. We're working on redoing the site.

<comment><USER52> Do you think the cheap fare is the value proposition? Or is the private terminals and fast service? That sounds very appealing. I mean, it can be both - save money AND time.

All the TSA experience is awful (business travelers in the US have the pre- screen and stuff of course, but they're probably not your target).

<comment><AUTHOR> I think the value prop is cheap fares without booking weeks in advance and fast checkins at the private terminals.

I agree, TSA is awful, so hopefully our solution will be more resolve this issue.

<comment><USER40> As somebody who's interested in the service: The "cheap" fare is not the value. I fly that damn route often enough that I have frequent flyer status - and so I can just afford to keep things booked 4 weeks in advance, and take advantage of the free cancellations that comes with status. (Not to mention that even on two weeks notice, I can book roundtrip at ~ your price. Alaska in two weeks right now: $160)

The main value is in a private terminal & fast checkins.

That is, btw, a likely factor that might keep people from using your service: if you do on average 3 round trips a month, that's enough to get you to e.g. Gold status on Alaska. Unless LAX<->SFO is the only route I need to take, that's a pretty large incentive to stay with a regular airline. (Because status means no cancellation fees and easy upgrades)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> This is sad. Flight is the most contaminating form of transportation.

<comment><USER7> Enjoy your 12 hour train ride.

<comment><USER54> You can get a ride with under 2 hours, if you do an actual express train.... see the ICE Sprinter Berlin-Munich, which has more stops than necessary, and does not even drive at the seed we have the technology for.

<comment><USER7> I'm familiar with trains, I'm just saying the option between SF and LA is... not really any option.

<comment><USER53> Well sure, but a high speed train could be built, right?

In Spain (not really a high-tech country overall) there are trains connecting the country corner to corner with trains that go at like 300 KM/Hour average. Considering that train stations are central, plus there is no need to be there like 2 hours before, plus you can easily work there, etc. it is way _faster_ and more _convenient_ than flight, and of course way more ecological.

I'm sure a little of all that VC money can be used to build such infrastructure... I got lots of downvotes for my original comment, but really, the amount of CO2 emitted by air travel is appalling. I understand it is hard to avoid in many situations, but at least let me feel sad about it.

<comment><USER55> That's generally my experience in Germany and Switzerland as well. Unless there are multiple hops involved e.g. Zurich-Würzburg with long waits in places like Stuttgart. If you have a non-stop connection it's great to work on a modern ice train with internet access.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How Many of You Are Like Me? - <AUTHOR> I've ready every HN post for the past few years, but have only commented on less than 10.  This is also my first submission.  I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago.
So the question is?  How many of you soak up all this knowledge like it's nicotine but don't comment much or post at all?
I suppose if you're really like me, you actually won't comment on this thread at all, LOL. It's a paradoxical enigma, or something like that... <comment><USER2> Active reader here, but I avoid commenting.

Whenever I do, I seem to find myself caring too much about the responses. This leads me to returning again and again to a thread I've already learned from and replying to responses in an attempt to clarify my position. Before I know it, a half-hour has passed to no benefit.

Since arrows tend to be clicked to reflect a worldview which conforms to a reader's own and not to promote posts of substance, I find the result is more poking a hive-mind than learning through discussion. That agitates me far more than it should and, for myself, it's best by far to simply lurk.

<comment><USER3> I agree about getting too involved in the responses. We are strange creatures. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> lol - you're not alone ;]. see, i'm here for 800 days now but stopped commenting on most of the threads long ago when I realized that my views are somewhat diametrically different and would not be accepted easily by those so more wise and better connected than my dumb self. they installed a nice feedback mechanism that effectively limits my input - whenever I post something I must fear ridiculous downvoting by those higher priviledged clergy folks. I guess that keeps the platform at a common standard, unfortunately I have not much to say at that point.. and I know some more people that do not post a single response, people much brighter than me. Not everybody communicates at the same rate, though.

<comment><USER5> You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the reader in an organized manner. In your comment history, other posts have it worse, and your writing style and mannerisms make you seem like a nut-case. If your comments were written using normal sentences, that would not be the case. However, if you're talking about "higher privileged clergy folks" downvoting you, writing style won't help much on that front.

<comment><USER6> > You'd have better success if you showed some respect for your readers by > capitalizing and writing your posts in a normal style. Starting off with > "lol" and an emoticon marks you as somebody who hasn't thought about what he > is about to write, and who doesn't care to present his thoughts to the > reader in an organized manner.

That is the biggest pile of bs I have ever read. Just because he starts his posts with a lol, and a smiley mean NOTHING. It angers and disgusts me to think that 17 other people happen to agree with you.

You guys (and I mean the HN "elite") try to avoid group thinking like its the plague, you believe you operate like the intelligent guys of the web but your reaction to that comment was disgusting and evident that your guilty of the same underlying thread that fuels racism and prejudice - difference.

What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one of the popular guys - and a kid reluctantly comes up to you one day, and says "Hey, I'm pretty shy around here because I feel I don't fit in." Your response was "well, of course you don't kid, look at you, you dress like an idiot and you stink" - then you and your cronies all laugh.

I used to really like HN, I used to enjoy the comments more than I did the articles at one point. But this has just become a place where people can split hairs, argue semantics, stroke their own ego's and do their best to feel self- important. Your comment is the epitome of my point.

I can't believe you just grilled that dude because of how he types. I've met plenty of very, very wealthy and successful individuals to know that how you type has absolutely no connection to how much respect you give readers, and how much they think about their responses.

The barrier to entry of participating on HN is not how you word, or begin your point - but the value you add.

<comment><USER7> > What you've done is no different to this scenario - your at school, your one > of the popular guys

But this is exactly the kind of thing he's referring to, sloppy writing and sloppy grammar generally mean sloppy thinking.

If _you're_ going to take the time to write something, you must want it to be read; have respect for _your_ reader and use proper capitalization, punctuation, and correct contractions. There are a lot of people who won't even read what you have to say if the writing is lazy and disrespectful to the reader.

<comment><USER8> fred wilson never capitalizes or uses periods on hacker news

<comment><USER9> The rest of us are not Fred Wilson.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I try to comment when I have something of value to add, that has not already been contributed. Mostly information. To a self-imposed limited extend, a bit of anecdote and/or humor. [1] The latter usually only in accompaniment to information.

I support the original attitude that pervaded HN, that karma is about surfacing interesting information. It's not personal, nor should it be.

Personal relationships do develop here, but not as a direct function of karma (I'm sure karma plays some role, inevitably, due to visibility and so discovery.)

In short, what would the other person want to know? (That's "want", not "should", the latter being a slippery slope.) Keeping in mind the composition and goals of the community, this makes participating pretty straight forward.

\--

1 Maybe I've been veering too far in this direction, lately.

<comment><USER11> I agree. If I feel I can add something of value to the discussion, including occasional humor, I'll chime in.

I call it the Mr. Ed principle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Sometimes I don't comment because the other comments seems so well-thought-out and expertly laid out. Level of knowledge of some HN commenters is almost intimidating sometimes.

<comment><USER13> Same -- it's taken me almost two years of reading HN before actually signing up, because everything I feel like saying has normaly already been said much better than I could.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I used to comment but found that I got dragged into heated "discussions" that were big time sink. I then tried short responses/comments, attempting to leave the investigation part as homework for the interested readers, but I was called as troll and asked to clarify things in long posts again. Also similar to frevd's case, my points of view don't usually align with the mainstream trends in HN. I just rather get my stuff done than spending time arguing with people online.

</comment><comment><USER15> Its my first post here - still I am a very active reader.

</comment><comment><USER16> I comment more than I should, and soak up an enormous amount of intellectual capital I now employ.

Thanks, great minds!

</comment><comment><USER17> Same here. I almost never comment or post. I learn/read a lot here and mostly don't think of a contribution worth posting.

I actually think that most comments add more noise than information, and therefore decrease the value of a thread as a whole. This get worse as commenting gets easier, because easier posting means more comments, but most people don't actually have something interesting to say/write. Information gets diluted and less accessible/visible.

In fact, this applies to the whole Internet and I sometimes wonder how much time it would have taken to learn the same things I learned while browsing through tech-related blogs by, for example, reading books (which are, often, denser in terms of information).

</comment><comment><USER18> I've been on here for the past few years as well but more recently started this account and in the past three days (literally speaking) have been trying to make an effort to comment and help out as much as possible to the HN community. I haven't posted anything yet but may soon sometime in the near future when I have something of value to provide. I know a few others that don't even have accounts that just come on here to read. It's not uncommon.

<comment><USER19> Last figure I heard was 80K unique visitors a day. I doubt there are anywhere near that many accounts and certainly not anywhere near that many accounts routinely posting. So 'not uncommon' is probably a vast understatement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I lurked for about a year before I posted. Don't do it :) It's very addictive once you start amassing bits of attention.

Chicago has an excellent reputation!

</comment><comment><USER21> I consider myself technical but I can't comment here about that kind of thing since I will not be knowledgeable enough to hold my own... I feel like I'm just about intelligent enough for other non-technical discussions.

I actually agree, I find it a lot easier to learn here than I did at University. I think it's because I'm mixing with people that care about knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER22> I only comment occasionally. I comment even less on other sites I frequent, like reddit (before I quit), lesswrong and ribbonfarm. I normally only comment when I have a point I really want to make, and no-one else has made that point already.

I'd guess there's a lot of people like you - most online communities have a very disproportionate amount of lurkers.

</comment><comment><USER23> I almost never comment - it takes time and I am busy. I am doing another startup after having been on vacation for 8 years. How the world has changed! 8 years since I sold my last business and I am learning all over. HN is a faucet of knowledge on turned on full boar. I have been reading and learning like crazy!

<comment><USER24> Would be interesting to know what your last business was about. Must have had a happy ending for you to have spent the last 8 years vacationing?

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm like you: I've been an active reader for the past couple years, but I rarely comment.

Sometimes I have stuff to say, but I'm afraid I'll spend the rest of the day coming back to HN and hope for acknowledgment and responses. This could be selfish, I know, especially when I really know something about a topic, but I can't help it.

</comment><comment><USER26> > How many of you soak up all this knowledge like it's nicotine but don't > comment much or post at all?

That perfectly describes my relationship with Hacker News.

As another first time commentor but long time lurker, I'd like to thank those of you who do comment. You've created a truly great resource.

<comment><USER27> My relationship with Hacker News is also much like this.

I have made exactly three comments before this one, and they were almost a year ago. If not for those, I might not have even created an account here. I just have the type of personality that enjoys taking in knowledge more than discussing it.

My account at Less Wrong is similarly neglected. I often wonder how many others (on both sites) do what I do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I am in the exact same boat. I visit HN 10 times a day, but this is my very first comment here.

</comment><comment><USER29> I've been on HN for years and read it daily, but I comment very rarely. I can't answer your question but I suspect there are a lot of others like us. Perhaps some traffic stats would shed light on the number of lurkers vs contributors.

</comment><comment><USER30> I know exactly how you feel, I'm sort of embarrassed by the fact that I only (somewhat) recently signed up because of it. I'm trying to change and start commenting more, so here I am.

</comment><comment><USER31> I comment, but add no value, does that count? We're all leeches! :p

<comment><USER32> Guess the questions is, what determines if you've "added value". Certainly there is value in adding to information (said article talks about Y, but you might also want to consider Z depending on your application), but there is also value in adding entertainment (at least the RIAA and MPAA think so), and even a well executed troll or Meme addition can be of some value to some people.

So I wouldn't presume that you are not adding value unless you just enjoy putting yourself down (in which case you are still adding value to some folks I am sure). :-)

<comment><USER4> Given the topic of this discussion any type of answer counts, right?

But by the way, interesting concept of anti-value. I'm sure Information Theory has got something to say about creation ex nihilo.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I think there is a lot of people who just lurk around and read everything, that is ok, but if you participate in discussion I think you will definitely learn a lot more.

Google cone of learning.

<comment><USER34> "Google cone of learning." I am not familiar with this phrase. Can someone explain?

<comment><USER32> On the off chance you're serious (and I know folks sometimes have a hard time differentiating between very subtle sarcasm and true newbiehood):

You are being directed to go to Google (or other search engine of choice) and enter the phrase "Cone of Learning".

You should get a result similar to the following: [http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8...](http://www.google.com/search?q=cone+of+learning&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en- US:official&client=firefox-a)

<comment><USER35> To be fair it is possible to parse google as a noun in that sentence. It reads a bit like an item in an RPG.

Google Cone of Haste +3

<comment><USER36> > Google Cone of Haste +3

Parsing it as a verb, I followed your instructions and this comment is already the top hit for "Cone of Haste" on Google.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Hey Sean. Are you in San Francisco? Do you want to start a company? I will be moving to San Jose in a couple of weeks. Maybe we could just hang out. I could use some friends.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi there and thanks for the shout out! Unfortunately, I'm knee deep in my own startup these days but would love to chat offline anytime and throw ideas around. You can link through to my profile, feel free to shoot me an email.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I have only recently discovered HN, and it has quickly become the most useful site I frequent. Up to now, however, I have not yet commented.

</comment><comment><USER39> I rarely comment because I'm just a student, and I'm not even going to go in to start ups. I don't feel like I can add much useful here.

</comment><comment><USER40> Your first submission has garnered nearly as many karma points than I've accumulated since I joined HN 3 years (and 1 day) ago.

</comment><comment><USER41> OK, I read HN a lot, comment and post a bit more than 'some'.

But lately I was thinking about this quote.

Information is not knowledge. ~Einstein

</comment><comment><USER42> i won't comment

<comment><USER16> "One of us tells the truth, and one of us always lies."

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> One of the first posts I've commented on even though I read too many posts here. :)

</comment><comment><USER44> I haven't be scammed of $100,000 yet so I guess I'm not completely like you :p

</comment><comment><USER45> first comment. What I like about this place is the various constructive points of view from the community on top of the conversation, information and URL provided. The votes/points help in my digestion too.

</comment><comment><USER46> I thought this was a parody of /r/DoesAnybodyElse at first.

</comment><comment><USER47> Is an MBA really that raw of a deal??

<comment><USER48> If you don't put it to good use. I just graduated college myself and put off any thoughts of going back for a year or two to see what I can make of my free time. 4 months later and I'm almost a CISSP in the security field. Now I feel as though I need to get back in touch with the HN community and maybe start networking better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> sorry. but I just registered myself here. so, I kinda like yourself

</comment><comment><USER50> i have shattered the paradox

</comment><comment><USER51> Are you _serious_?

"I've learned more from the community than I did during my $100,000 MBA from the University of Chicago."

You weren't out meeting people and making awesome connections?

You didn't build relationships with the brilliant professors?

I am _shocked_ by the content of your post.

What have you learned on Hacker News? And then what did you learn at Booth?

I would pay to read that write-up.

<comment><USER52> Not everybody gets the most out of being at an Elite university.

My family comes from an ethnically Catholic background, you know, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian, many of the people who came to the U.S. fleeing the aftermath of WWII, members of the surplus humanity whose livelihood was destroyed by the mechanization of agriculture in the early half of the twentieth century.

In the 1960's and 1970's, in a time when it became unfashionable to attack blacks and indigenous persons, academics such as Mark Granovetter and Edward C. Banfield were writing treatises about the inferiority of traditionally Catholic ethnic groups. And I'll just say that in graduate school, people from these backgrounds find there is no organization for their "national advancement" or "anti-defamation" and they'll be left to their own devices to understand why certain doors just aren't quite open to them.

[Disclaimer: the author of this post has no relationship to the Catholic Church other than having many family and friends who are members, and in fact, is a pagan]

<comment><USER53> I don't know if this is still the case, but Catholics were the single largest religious group at the University of Chicago when I was there in the late 90's.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I've started using HN on an increasing basis recently, having been lurking for a while having, eventually got round to joining and starting to participate in the discussions.

Although, I do have to agree that there is a great amount of information on here, especially in the Ask HN type threads.

</comment><comment><USER55> I feel I add value. But gravity here loves me much. Happy V-day HN.

</comment><comment><USER56> info sponge here too. plus agree think you can acquire edu approx equiv to an MBA via all the free and cheap info and resources avail on the web and in libraries.

key is to put it all to use!

</comment><comment><USER57> seanMeverette..

What Chicago startup did you end founding or joining?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've founded a few, would be happy to chat more about it and what you're working on offline :)</comment></comment>


Most app developers make less than $500 a month (chart) — Tech News and Analysis - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/2012/10/04/most-app-developers-make-less-than-500-a-month-chart/ <comment><USER2> Nothing new, it's just a pyramid setup, a few big hits raking in tons, and a whole lot of apps that are downloaded twice or make 2 dollars a month with advertising.

<comment><USER3> Except $20k per month is a pretty low threshold for "big hits". We were making significantly more than that in the Palm/WinMo hey days and weren't the exception to the rule.</comment></comment>


What startups are hiring in Sales? - <AUTHOR>

What are some solid startups hiring Sales Rep/Managers, etc? Most only look for developers, etc. Who/what is driving sales? <comment><USER2> We are! [https://angel.co/sokikom/jobs/34262-k12-field-sales- represen...](https://angel.co/sokikom/jobs/34262-k12-field-sales- representative)

</comment><comment><USER3> We aren't hiring just yet, but shoot me an email email@example.com</comment>


justin.tv as a way to interview people for jobs - <AUTHOR>

<comment><AUTHOR> Would you broadcast your life for a chance at getting a job?

From an employer's perspective, this would be an excellent opportunity to really know employee candidates. The employer will see what they are like on a day to day basis -- both on professional and personal levels.

Moreover, the broadcast could include what's on the candidate's computer screen. This would be a good way to evaluate their coding ability and see how easily they get distracted by email, social apps, etc. for example.

Such a life broadcast might be an open-ended job interview with no particular employer in mind.

</comment><comment><USER2> Sounds great for the employer... not for the potential employee. Even in the role of an employer...

I don't want to know that much detail about someone. Day to day things about whether they get distracted or how they code isn't as important as week to week things... how well do they deliver on what they say they will. I could care less if someone was on mySpace most of the time, if they managed to get business taken care of, great.</comment>


Ask HN: How much taxes do you pay on Bitcoin earnings as a US resident? - <AUTHOR> <comment><AUTHOR> A lot of information here, but wondering if anybody has a more recent point of view: [http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-transactions-and- ameri...](http://www.nasdaq.com/article/bitcoin-transactions-and-american- taxation-an-interview-with-daniel-winters-cpa-cm712172)</comment>


Spires and Gyres: on Jakarta - <AUTHOR> https://placesjournal.org/article/spires-and-gyres/ <comment> michel-slm As someone originally from Jakarta, thank you for sharing this! Some of it resonates with my experience (esp. the rejection of colonial buildings) and some of the observations never occurred to me before.

Tidbit: "Pancasila" actually means "Five principles" so "The Five Pancasilas" sounds to me like Hugh Grant pointing out "The La Trattoria" in Mickey Blue Eyes.</comment>


PyCaribbean Call to Proposals is open - <AUTHOR> Hi everyone!
We want to invite you all to PyCaribbean on February 18-19, 2017, in Bayamón, Puerto Rico. If you ever wanted to talk Python and be with an awesome community in a tropical getaway this is your chance.
We are currently accepting talk proposals and have our early bird tickets up. Join us at http://pycaribbean.com
For any addition information you can contact us at any of the following, we would love to hear from you.
firstname.lastname@example.com Twitter: @pycaribbean Slack: http://slack.pycaribbean.com <comment><USER2> I was a speaker at the inaugural PyCaribbean 2015 earlier this year in Santo Domingo - I gave a talk on doing the first and only Google Transit implementation in the Caribbean (in Kingston, Jamaica).

It was a great conference - Lots of camaraderie, talks available in English and Spanish, ranging from Python's type system to one guy's experience teaching Python in rural Argentina. Johnny Gill (a real character!) from Bermuda showed me a system using Raspberry Pis to collect weather data. Unfortunately, I missed Allen B Downey's talk, but caught Brandon Rhodes' (opening) and Jacob Kaplan-Moss' (closing) keynotes.

If you're anywhere near the region, come on out! It's tropical nerdery at its finest :)

@skfroi - It's Oswald, from Jamaica.

<comment><USER3> Hey Oswald!

I saw that PyCon Jamaica is a go for November, that's awesome.

Hope to see you again in PyCaribbean come February.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> What's the cost of a ticket? I hit the tickets button but it asked me to enter an access code.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for mentioning the issue with the tickets. It's now fixed.

There's currently early birds tickets available for $100. Regular price will be $150.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> PyCaribbean organizer here. Feel free to ask us any questions.</comment>


Remembering Freeman Dyson - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/remembering-freeman-dyson/ <comment><USER2> > Most famously, he classified leading physicists and mathematicians as either > birds or frogs. For him, Einstein was the archetypal bird—flying high, > surveying broad vistas out to the horizon—while Dyson regarded himself as a > frog, hopping from one problem to another. He allowed few exceptions to his > categories, but he did concede that his friend Richard Feynman was "a frog > who wanted to be a bird."

In case anyone wants to read his essay:

[https://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200212p.pdf](https://www.ams.org/notices/200902/rtx090200212p.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> I didn't know much about him before he died. I've been watching some interviews he gave on YouTube. Very interesting dude.

</comment><comment><USER4> _Dyson's imagination ventured far beyond physics. In the latter part of his career, he brought an unconventional perspective to the life sciences. This often landed him in trouble with leading experts, notably when he repeatedly dismissed computer models of the Earth's climate and the growing consensus that climate change was a crisis for humanity._

<comment><USER5> He was an expert as much as anyone.

From his wiki:

"Around 1979 Dyson worked with the Institute for Energy Analysis on climate studies. This group, under Alvin Weinberg's direction, pioneered multidisciplinary climate studies, including a strong biology group. Also during the 1970s, Dyson worked on climate studies conducted by the JASON defense advisory group.[26]"

He held the view that CO2 was mostly beneficial to the biosphere and that anthropogenic warming was much milder than has been estimated.

You can watch his interview on the subject of you're curious. He explains his position quite coherently: [https://youtu.be/BiKfWdXXfIs](https://youtu.be/BiKfWdXXfIs)

<comment><USER6> > He was an expert as much as anyone.

Did he ever make that claim for himself? I certainly remember him saying the opposite.

<comment><USER5> Dyson was a rather self-deprecating genius.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> [https://youtu.be/vL00KEB1H50](https://youtu.be/vL00KEB1H50) \- Freeman Dyson's theory of the origin of life, as explained by him.

</comment><comment><USER8> His name was Freeman Dyson</comment>


Show HN: Web Audio DSP Playground - <AUTHOR> https://acarabott.github.io/audio-dsp-playground/ <comment><USER2> Audio Worklet [https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2017/12/audio- work...](https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2017/12/audio-worklet) is way, way cooler than these demos imply, as it actually gives you a high- priority digital signal processing thread separate from the UI thread. And because it can benefit from WebAssembly, it's only a matter of time before the power of native audio applications is ported to the browser.

This thread [https://forum.juce.com/t/juce-plugins-in- webassembly/25255](https://forum.juce.com/t/juce-plugins-in-webassembly/25255) , particularly the demo here [https://webaudiomodules.org/demos/wasm/dexed.html](https://webaudiomodules.org/demos/wasm/dexed.html) (try using the ZXCV row on your keyboard) are incredibly promising, as they're straightforward ports of real synthesizers.

Other comments have mentioned that this is coming to Firefox as well; core contributors on the media team have been discussing how it's a priority as recently as two days ago: [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1062849](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1062849)

Really exciting times for the web audio space!

</comment><comment><USER3> This is pretty sweet. It'd be cool to have more examples though like square wave, triangle wave, etc. and maybe some simple effects like tremolo.

<comment><USER4>
        let amp = 0;
        const maxamp = 0.5;
        const freq = 880;

        function loop(numFrames, outL, outR, sampleRate) {
            const steps = sampleRate / freq;
            const delta = maxamp/steps;

            for (let i = 0; i < numFrames; i++) {
                amp += delta;
                outL[i] = amp;
                outR[i] = amp;

                if (amp > maxamp) amp = 0.0;
             }
        }

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Would be a cool addition to let users upload an mp3 and then act on it with the AudioWorklet to do stuff like bit crushing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great idea! Have implemented it, refresh and check it out.

<comment><USER6> Could you also try adding a polyfill for non-Chrome browsers? e.g. [https://github.com/jariseon/audioworklet- polyfill](https://github.com/jariseon/audioworklet-polyfill)

<comment><AUTHOR> Had a crack at it but it throws NotSupportedException in both Firefox and Safari. There are also some parts that don't conform to the spec and break. Filing an issue...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Only available on Chrome and only versions 66 and up.

<comment><USER8> For cutting edge html5 we have no choice but the latest chrome. Audio worklets? Webmidi? Even though I prefer Firefox they're not moving at the same rate as chrome, no one is when it comes to things like audio worklets.

<comment><USER9> Apparently there is no issue when it is Google doing it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Getting an error of "The AudioContext was not allowed to start. It must be resume (or created) after a user gesture on the page. [https://goo.gl/7K7WLu"](https://goo.gl/7K7WLu").

<comment><AUTHOR> Strange, as this is accounted for: [https://github.com/acarabott/audio-dsp- playground/blob/maste...](https://github.com/acarabott/audio-dsp- playground/blob/master/livecode.js#L87)

OS / Chrome version? Were you clicking the start button or using the key command?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is awesome. Sounds quite in tune at 440 Hz (A4). Could be the beginning of a DAW for Chrome ;)

<comment><USER12> Why for Chrome? Why not for _the web_?

Let's not walk into the old MSIE trap all over again.

<comment><USER13> Need to convince the remaining browsers to implement more audio APIs.

<comment><USER12> Firefox plans to implement it last I checked[1].

[1] [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1062849](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1062849)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Only available in Chrome 66+, and why do you submit it twice in a week?</comment>


Samsung Exynos-5422 Octa-Core Servers - <AUTHOR> https://www.hetzner.de/gb/hosting/produktmatrix/rootserver-produktmatrix-ax <comment><USER2> Well, its nice that ARM servers are coming available, even if they don't seem quite that desirable as they are. Could be nice for ARM build CI server.

I wonder how the performance compares to say the scaleway[0] offerings, I would guess the SD card storage doesn't compare favourably.

Given that there are 6eur/mo one core intel dedis[1][2] and 16eur/mo 8core with 8gig ram and vastly more disk space[3], these seem a bit expensive.

[0] [https://www.scaleway.com/pricing/](https://www.scaleway.com/pricing/) [1] [http://www.kimsufi.com/fr/index.xml](http://www.kimsufi.com/fr/index.xml) [2] [http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedibox- scg2](http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedibox-scg2) [3] [http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedibox- xc](http://www.online.net/en/dedicated-server/dedibox-xc)

<comment><USER3> Anything with SD card storage will perform very poorly. Anything that uses USB 2.0 as a system bus will perform like dogshit.

Using real SSDs on a real SATA channel makes an immense difference, not just in performance but also in system stability. SD cards are meant to be linearly loaded up with files, dumped to disk, then erased. They do not handle highly random write loads with sectors of extreme write intensity very well, their wear levelling is very minimal and sooner or later you will burn them out if you're not careful. The typical way around this is using a write-protected SD card for bootstrapping (if necessary). You load a minimal driver stub, and then you either boot from a USB stick or you do a PXE boot from an image on the network.

USB 2.0 is way too limited to handle your entire system disk+network traffic+data disk load. You want USB 3.0 at a minimum if your computer is set up like that.

If you just want something real minimal maybe the SD card options are OK, but I highly, highly recommend a SSD-based system if you can swing it at all. If you're not going to see a ton of traffic, maybe you could build it out once and run it on your corporate network? That could be more appealing than a hosted or colo'd solution, depending on the task.

<comment><USER4> ODROIDs come with eMMC storage, and they recommend using it over the SD card for this reason. (I haven't tried it, since the workloads I'm using it with tend to be CPU bound and SD cards are so much easier to find, so I don't know how much of an improvement it is.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> What exactly is stopping ARM boards to have high IO?

Just allow people to use a normal 2.5" SSD or even m2 and you have a really nice machine!

For example, the latest Raspberry Pi 2 has a quad-core CPU which is faster than my 1st machine (and maybe even my 2nd and 3rd) but is severly handicaped by the IO speed which is limited to USB (plus, all the USB ports and Ethernet using the same controller for extra slowness).

A quad-core ARM with a RAM slot supporting at least 8GB, a giga Ethernet port, 4 separate USB ports and a SATA connection would be glorious.

<comment><USER6> For 32 bit ARM, it seems to be shortcuts in the SoC design a.k.a there's a reason some boards cost under $50.

There exist some designs with real SATA (eg. Cubietruck) but those have poor CPUs (A7), and there exist many designs with SATA-via-USB which is never going to be fast. Also micro SD cards have abysmal performance for the sort of random I/O that operating system root filesystems have.

Luckily the situation in 64 bit ARM server land is much better. The APM Mustang and AMD designs have a combination of fast cores and properly engineered I/O subsystems. Real SATA, multiple 10gigE and 1gigE interfaces, PCIe, etc.

<comment><USER7> I would say it is not so much shortcuts as the fact that the 32-bit SoCs are generally designed for mobile. The only way to get a cheap devboard is to use an SoC which is being produced in high volume, so it doesn't have a prohibitive cost. That means you get the peripherals that a mobile phone or tablet wants, and not the ones that it doesn't, typically. If you insist on using an SoC custom designed for a devboard then the board is probably going to be tens of thousands of dollars.

64-bit is better because there are SoCs directly targeting server usecases which therefore have the kind of peripherals you'd prefer to see in devboards.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The 11.88 € option has an Exynos 5422 + 2 GB RAM + 32 GB MicroSD card -- those are guts of a Galaxy S5 or Galaxy Note 3 smartphone. Interesting choice for a server.

<comment><USER6> I think by "interesting" you meant to write "terrible". I'm wondering who on earth is the market for this? 32 bit ARM (even A15) is not a great server platform.

If it had been 64 bit ARM with a real amount of RAM and an SSD then it might be more interesting. Even there (and I say this as someone who has an APM Mustang under my desk), it's more likely of benefit to people hosting web servers at scale than for VPS.

<comment><USER9> > _I 'm wondering who on earth is the market for this?_

People whose web pages generate a lot of traffic (10TB allowed) with low CPU usage, i.e. static pages and similar.

<comment><USER10> >People whose web pages generate a lot of traffic (10TB allowed) with low CPU usage, i.e. static pages and similar.

Surely such cases are better served by offloading to a CDN. As much as I hate centralizing to one company, CloudFlare nails this pretty damn well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is a [http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php](http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php) ODroid XU4 if you are wondering, I have one of their ODroid C boards and find it quite useful.

<comment><USER4> Seconding this. I use an ODROID XU3 (the earlier model) for testing Servo on multicore ARM and it's surprisingly fast, especially if your workload parallelizes. It's amazing how much CPU/GPU power you can get for $75, and since it's both parallel, cheap, and based on a mainstream consumer SoC I would love for it to be a harbinger of things to come :)

What holds it back is the I/O (though I haven't tried using eMMC, which is probably a huge improvement) and driver issues, especially around graphics (the never-ending problem with ARM SoCs).

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Horrible price for the hardware. I mean, as a proof of concept it is OK, but the power these deliver is laughable for the price they have.

</comment><comment><USER13> Too little RAM and too little I/O for the price if you compare to VPS servers.

</comment><comment><USER14> Everyone who says this is a bad price for the hardware, please link me to any other bare metal server for rent at 16e/mo. I haven't seen it, not at Hetzner, nor anywhere else.

You can hate on it all you want, but this is simply a unique offering.

<comment><USER15> For what application is bare metal server rental particularly useful? (as opposed to either own colo or low end VPS)

<comment><USER14> There's security, basically there's two vectors a Hetzner compromise can be used against us, either they reboot a machine and get our data through rescue mode, or they gain physical access. VPS'es can be hacked fully digitally and transparently (i.e. if you have access to the hypervisor you're in).

There's performance concerns as well, but those don't really apply for ARM as obviously you can do better.</comment></comment></comment>


Dear hn, today i resign & risk it all to follow my heart. wish me luck. - <AUTHOR>

working for the man in this cubicle for 5 years has crushed my spirit. i learned to program and today i put in my 2 weeks. time to discover how to make a living off the internet and leave my mark on history. <comment><USER2> First of all, good luck on your new life. I quit my job last year to do music (sounds crazy, and it actually is a bit) so I know your feeling.

Here's some advice though. Asking to wish you luck sounds like you're not entirely confident about your decision. Furthermore, posting here on HN makes it look you've already achieved something, but it's really just the beginning.

Whenever I intent to do something important, I never tell anyone in advance. It's not about fearing to be looked at as a failure in other's eyes. It's about not considering taking a decision as an achievement. It's like when someone decides to work out to lose some pounds and tell everyone 'Hey, I just bought a new running outfit, check it out!' thinking 'Wow, I've done it!' when they actually haven't done anything yet.

I care about what I've done, not about what I've said I would do. So I keep things to myself until I've got something concrete to show.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, especially when I don't know anything about your situation. I just wanted to say to stay focused, and to find motivation within yourself first and foremost. Your decision is a great one, but it's just the start.

<comment><USER3> Great advice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> First of all: congrats on your decision! Now I don't want to sound asinine, but have you thought this through well enough? I mean, from what I read you have two weeks to discover how you're going to make money, build something, and actually make money off of it. That might be a bit ambitious... Wouldn't it be better to keep working at a job, and build something awesome in your spare time? Or do you have some cash to get you through the first n months or so? Regardless of your decision, keep us posted! Good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks for the insight. i am not starting entirely from scratch but i have no actual product/users to speak of. just a few ideas, a few months worth of savings, and a good bit of boilerplate code from my training projects.

<comment><USER5> Why not start a project part-time at night while you still have a job? With out a few months savings you could find yourself without a viable product and with zero money pretty shortly.

Best of luck to you either way!

<comment><AUTHOR> ya, this was my plan back in january when i convinced my employer to let me take thursdays & fridays off to work on my own projects.

2 days a week is not much to educate myself, map out a site, design it, and program it. i am 10 months into this task and the site is at maybe 70%.

my wife and son are demanding more of my time and attention and since this job has turned into little more than a means to pay for the car i need to get there, it's making sense to sell the car, finish this project, and see what comes of it.

Thanks for the advice.

<comment><USER5> Awesome... Go for it! A wife and son are pretty good inspiration to get it in gear! :)

Be sure to post your project here once you launch.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> First of all, good luck.

I also work on a boring job that drain all my energy, and in some way I envy you. I would like to have your courage. But as my current job is still bearable, I'm working on my own product on the spare time. But I'm working as a software developer only for 3 years, so I don't know if I could do it in your your situation.

</comment><comment><USER7> Not to pee on your parade, but you should've really started discovering that while still employed as a cubicle dweller. That removes heck of a lot of uncertainty compared to jumping off the cliff, blindfolded.

Good luck though, this still beats sitting in a cubicle.

</comment><comment><USER8> I have been in that position many times. But with a family and a visa to worry about, I could never just quit. I work on my project(s) on the side. I launched one app in my spare time (in ~10 months) and I am working on my second app (hoping to launch within the next 5 months). These side projects also help me keep my sanity at my day job.

Keep in mind that your family is the most important thing in this world. Do whatever is needed to keep their future secure. So for now, I have decided to keep my dilbert day job, until the US decides that I can work for myself without any strings attached.

</comment><comment><USER9> Good luck!

I did the same thing in the fall of 2008, except that I taught myself to program _after_ quitting my job. I went into freelance consulting with Ruby on Rails and have been doing that ever since.

<comment><USER10> Consulting is a path I am interested in. Do you mind describing how you got to where you are? (Email would be fine if you prefer)

<comment><USER11> People are unlikely to just hand over their strategies, the good ones anyways. It creates competition. That's why most of the blog posts you see contain mostly generic information. It's pretty rare to see specific, repeatable steps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I highly recommend Cal Newport's (e)book, So Good They Can't Ignore You, which tackles the issue that passion is not always enough to succeed. I think it would help you make your mark.

<comment><USER3> Just bought it. Thanks for the recommendation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> "cubicle for 5 years has crushed my spirit"

I envy you that 5 years was enough for you to take this step. I am still trying to do it after almost 9 years even though technically I am a contractor but still got the 9-5 cubicle work.

Now, good luck, work hard, don't get demoralized easily and associate with people who are better than you in aspects that you care about.

<comment><USER14> What's keeping you?

<comment><USER13> Laziness to be completely honest. I have an idea, the background, the tools and eerything else ready. Heck, I even taught myself enough Python, Flask framework and HTML/CSS to build a CRUD site myself. Done a few exercises already but have not put together the pieces to be able to do a "Show HN" yet. Talk about misery.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I wish you all the best!!! There are going to be times when you might think that you didn't make the right choice but keep your head up and trust yourself and always have a vision of success and success will come to you.

</comment><comment><USER3> Good luck! I'm sure it will be a huge learning/growing experience. Feel free to send me an email if you want someone to bounce ideas off of or just free thoughts on marketing any of your ideas.

</comment><comment><USER14> Hi methochris, I wish you much success. Let's meet again at the end of 2012 and tell us how you've done. Can you give us a hint of what you'll be doing?

</comment><comment><USER16> Best of luck! A months down the road, don't forget why you left and all the momentum you had when you left! Never stop learning! :)

</comment><comment><USER17> Good luck!! Remember to tell your story in order for more people to follow your footsteps.

</comment><comment><USER18> work smart, work very hard. you'll either find it fulfilling and rewarding, or learn that you're might actually enjoy working for a good company (it's possible you just weren't a good fit at your current job too.)

</comment><comment><USER19> Best of luck. Stay healthy and dedicate time away from your workstation. :-)

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm 18 months from doing the same thing... I hope you succeed.

<comment><USER21> Just curious, why 18 months?

<comment><USER5> Was going to ask the same thing... saving up?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Good luck, hope to hear of whatever product you work on

</comment><comment><USER23> Best of luck! I am some time away from doing the same.

</comment><comment><USER24> Good luck! Please post updates if you can.

</comment><comment><USER25> Good luck man, I wish I could do the same.

</comment><comment><USER26> Good luck to you!

</comment><comment><USER27> Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER28> good luck! also, these posts on HN are the equivalent of birthdays on Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER29> good luck!</comment>


Ask HN: Humour - <AUTHOR>

I've found it very difficult to find things that are generally humourous nowadays, and I think humour is very important for good psychological health. So I want to know where do you guys get your daily doses of humour? <comment><USER2> <http://www.collegehumor.com/> <http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/> <http://www.colbertnation.com/video>

</comment><comment><USER3> <http://www.reddit.com/r/funny>

</comment><comment><USER4> Rather than an IV drop of LOLCats or other Internet stuff, I try to find the humor in every day life. It is one thing to make a co-worker laugh, a better thing if they can make you laugh. I think funny stories do not affect me as much as hearing about something that happened to someone I know. Going to a movie is an exception, but I really think we can entertain ourselves by tapping into the people we know. Sharing instead of just consuming.

</comment><comment><USER5> For me, Eddie Izzard always fits the bill. Search youtube and you will have a lot of stuff to watch.

Old stand up, even when I know the punch lines, I still laugh my ass off (I'm talking RIchard Pryor, Cosby, Woody Allen, etc).</comment>


Ask HN: Is this the end of geek? - <AUTHOR>

I'm watching language corruption in action...
I remember seeing and hearing an increasing number of people referring to themselves as nerds back during the first .com bubble. Eager to associate themselves with the massive IPO valuations for companies built by genuine nerds, of course they seemed to stop that self labeling when the bubble burst. But now it seems that geek is the new "hotness".
http://geekadvancement.com/ and the twitter tag #iamageek is now making everyone who has seen the new star trek film proudly proclaim "I AM A GEEK". I know i sound like some old geezer but it seems to me like the "social media mavens" are actively using the word to described themselves so some of the facebook,google,twitter magic rubs off on them.
Hacker of course had its definition troubles but it seems to of somewhat come back to its original meaning. My Question is this: Is this the end of geek as we know it? <comment><USER2> I have never been comfortable advertising myself as a geek because to me there's no way to distinguish oneself using that word without coming across as a wannabe or fanboy. You don't crown yourself smart. When somebody today tells me they're a geek my private reaction is "what specifically are you a geek of?" If it's "social media" then I'm starting to lose interest because there are no skills involved. I'm thinking "for chrissakes Shaquille O'Neil is on Twitter." If these people want tech cred they've got to lose the "Hi, I'm Bob. I am a big social media geek." Although I suppose today that gets you more female admirers than "Hi I'm __, I'm a hacker working on a project that __."

Words evolve. Language corruption is a well-documented phenomenon in linguistics. The word _geek_ is a good example. Geek started off dodgy then it turned edgy and now that it has become so popular its connotation bares little resemblance to the original. Another example is the word _awesome_ which used to be reserved only for truly magnificent, spectacular things; over time the edge dulled and we now refer to things as common as potato salad as "awesome."

For an interesting lecture on language evolution listen to John McWhorter: [http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/142733/Audio/Lectures/Story%20of%...](http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/142733/Audio/Lectures/Story%20of%20Human%20Language%20-%20John%20McWhorter/03%20How%20Language%20Changes%20-%20Sound%20Change.mp3)

</comment><comment><USER3> Out goes the geek and in comes the hacker.</comment>


Ask HN: Can this way we support publishers and readers, and also get rid of ads? - <AUTHOR> People use  adblockers as they hate ads or don't want to see it. But if this continues the day is not away when publishers will die due to this. So how can we solve this problem?
A browser plugin where people say pay monthly 10$ and can view 5000 articles. Now whichever site they visit their (who are partner with this program) will be given some revenue. Say 2$ for 1000 readers. This way they can earn money and also will not need to have any ads on their site.
And users also will not need to pay individual blogger or author.
What do you guys think about it?
Edit: Just found Google is working on similar approach: https://www.google.com/contributor/welcome/ <comment><USER2> I think this is a great idea and I agree with you that it eliminates the problems mentioned in other comments. I like it even better than whatever google is probably doing unless google is making it possible for people to use theirs without signing up for a google account. (I haven't looked into it but I'd be astonished if that were the case.) Contrary to another comment, paying a lump sum in one place would seem clearly more convenient to me than paying individual fees to every web site I visit, especially if I visit them infrequently or just once. Furthermore, I don't think it needs a revolution to get this going. You could start small by offering it to web publishers in addition to their existing ad revenue streams. The only thing that would deter me from using this plugin would be the privacy issue. Even though this would be the simplest way to implement it, I don't want a cookie that uniquely identifies me to every web site so that you the plugin developer know which account to debit. Maybe some smart person could figure out a better solution.

</comment><comment><USER3> For me, the problem isn't directly the ads. I started tuning them out long ago, well before the time of ad blockers. I really don't care what the ads look like.

The problems are: \- Some ads are very intrusive \- Some ads are malicious

Those are problems because the content owners are usually hands-off when it comes to displaying ads. They say things like "I can plug in this javascript from site x and I'll get paid!" Sure, you can, but if you're not curating the ads in the same way you're curating your content, something isn't going to align.

People will view content (and advertising) if it's valuable to them. Interesting, engaging, technically relevant, etc. That should apply to everything on your page, including ads.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah but dont you think solution I have suggested will solve that problem?

<comment><USER3> If I'm willing to pay for content, why wouldn't I just pay the content owner directly? I already pay for WSJ, NYTimes and others.

There could be an opportunity to enable content owners to more easily accept payments, but is the opportunity large enough (and the costs to the content owner low enough) to justify it?

What's the model look like for that? Are there enough content owners/creators that would pay (or revenue share) someone else to monitize their content in a more meaningful way for users? Let's say "Blogger XYZ" decides to charge $1USD per article (likely a VERY high number). Is he/she going to give up 30% to someone else to handle the payment/settlement?

Don't companies like Wordpress already have plug-ins for PayPal or Stripe to accept payments too?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The problem isn't the ads themselves. It's what they do to the experience of browsing. Increase loading times, reduce responsiveness, use up metered data (important on mobile), spy on you, install malware.

There are too many bad actors out there using ads Networks for malicious things or just don't care to pay attention to the user experience. So it just makes good sense to by default turn off the features that are being misused rather than give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

The solution of using micro transactions doesn't address the issue of bad actors ruining the system for everyone else. So I think it might be killed faster than ads.

<comment><AUTHOR> well using this plugin there will be no ads served. So dont you think this will solve problems a lot?

<comment><USER4> Only if the plugin blocks ads/trackers etc.

Otherwise users are not only seeing ads, getting spied on and running up their data but also paying for the privilege. So in effect then users will have another thing block or ignore.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just found google is testing something similar: [https://www.google.com/contributor/welcome/](https://www.google.com/contributor/welcome/)</comment>


Ask HN: Good habits to learn more during work - <AUTHOR> I hope the title is quite self-explanatory. I am the only junior developer at my first job (they normally don't hire fresh grads) surrounded by medium-high experienced developers. I learnt quite a bit (code structure, architecture, migration struggles, etc.) throughout my time but think that I could make more of my time during work.
I am especially curious about some habits that I could try start doing in order to learn more from my surroundings. I do occasionally take time to read through the commits of my colleagues.
Any tips (even the smallest) would be much appreciated. <comment><USER2> Always be looking for the "why" behind everything. And I mean everything:

Why is marketing requesting this feature? Why was this meeting scheduled? Why was this pattern used in the code here? Why was a different pattern used over here? Why was this release successful? Why was this one late? Why did this production problem happen?

If you don't understand something, ask.

Building software systems is a complex process. Millions of decisions are made, from big items like what language and frameworks to use, to smaller choices like how a specific input is validated, or how logic is split into functions.

As you learn through experience, you build intuition--you start making intentional decisions automatically because you know it's a good idea. These are often not captured in specs or requirements docs, but are very important to the project.

Understanding "why" will help you build your own intuition.

As a follow up: a lot of things are done intentionally, but at least as many are not. Were the imports in this file ordered this way on purpose? Why is this a separate method if its only called from one place? If nobody on the team knows "why" something was done a specific way, it was usually unintentional.

The intentional things are what you want to build your intuition around. You will start to see the effects of those decisions appear as the project continues.

For the unintentional things, try to identify consequences (both good and bad). Was this a happy accident? Did this cause a bunch of pain? Or was it really inconsequential.

This will help you know where to focus--which decisions would benefit from additional time and scrutiny and which should be done as quickly as possible-- when developing yourself.

EDIT: Forgot the conclusion....</comment>


Cops' massive salaries are robbing taxpayers blind - <AUTHOR> http://nypost.com/2017/09/13/cops-massive-salaries-are-robbing-taxpayers-blind/ <comment><USER2> It's hard for me to get bent out of shape about salaries for public employees. Most of them do shit work, at shit pay, for many years -- and if a few of them accrue enough overtime and holiday pay to make very good money in their last few years of employment, and therefore secure a good pension, then I'm not about to argue it should be taken away from them. Lord knows that if you broke down the budget of NYC (~ $85 billion annually) what these guys are making probably barely puts a dent in it.

In general, I hate this crabs-in-a-bucket mentality to how we fund (or don't) public services and the social safety net. Every teacher, police officer, paramedic, and sanitation worker -- the people who keep society functional and healthy -- _should_ be getting this kind of money! And if you look at it jealously because your private-sector job (perhaps as a NY Post hack?) would never get you nearly that much, then maybe you, too, should unionize and agitate for better pay. I mean, you should probably do that anyway, regardless of what teachers and cops get paid, but that's for another thread.

If it costs the government more money to pay these salaries, with increased taxes to go along with that, then I'm fine with that. These services are available to anyone and everyone, for everyone's benefit. This (from my experience, especially but not only American) need to moan and complain about every dollar of tax paid, or (if you're rich enough) pay accountants and lawyers enormous sums so you don't have to pay any taxes at all -- is, frankly, unethical and contributes to the ongoing breakdown of American civil society that I have been watching for my entire life.

<comment><USER3> Don't you think, though, that there are probably hundreds of people who would be eagerly lining up to do that job for half the price?

It's not clear how many of those are as qualified as the guys discussed in the article but, if there are any, isn't it the job of your town to get you the best deal it can when hiring a police force?

<comment><USER4> This could lead to an opposite problem - where I am from(Poland) police bribery is _still_ an issue despite years of fighting against it, and I have no doubts one of the main reasons for it is the low pay of policemen. Someone with 10 years of experience in the force takes home about $800/month. So if they are offered $200 to forgive a fine, that's like a week-worth of money for doing less work.

<comment><USER3> What would you guess is the median monthly income there, counting people of all professions?

<comment><USER5> Median net worth (not net income, and not average) in Poland in 2016 was $9,484 USD.

So, assuming a cop is at the 50th percentile of society, a $200 bribe would be 2% of his life savings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> So, do they use that officer's unpaid vacation time that he cashed in during his last year when calculating his pension?

The article seems to imply that, but does not say it directly.

</comment><comment><USER7> >including one officer who pulled down $442,000, a new report shows.

Is that considered a lot for a senior wage for a skilled worker in the US? Sounds pretty tight, even with dramatically lower taxes than most European countries.

<comment><USER5> That would be considered a fabulous sum of money in any city here.

You are getting into the realm of surgeon/athlete money when you are talking 442k.

There are some cops who only make maybe 40-70k.

I've heard lofty cops in rich towns are making 100-200k.

It's not exactly a tough job.

<comment><USER8> >>It's not exactly a tough job.

I agree with everything you said, but this. It betrays a profound lack of understanding of what police actually do.

<comment><USER5> I'll admit that I have a bias here, and I know that many cops in specific areas have truly dangerous jobs.

HOWEVER.

The above is not true for many, many jurisdictions. These cops are armed, well paid, and operating in very very normal and safe neighborhoods.

In many dangerous neighborhoods, police don't even go in.

Regardless, the question is also about price. Police are valuable, but at what price? Ask the property tax payers in that neighborhood what they feel is the right salary. People will move if they don't like it.

Just look at South Side Chicago and Detroit.

First responders are often not showing up to calls within an hour. Gunshot victims are being turned away from hospitals.</comment></comment></comment></comment>