I'm 28 and frustrated – can I still have programming career? - <AUTHOR> For past two or three years I have felt very unfulfilled. I have background in video production/editing (Avid, Final Cut, After Effects) with 6+ years of experience, including national TV broadcast. But for past 4 years that I was employed I wasn't feeling very happy, it took energy out of me. I was so unhappy that I quit my current job few months ago and relocated to Canada to clear my head. Now that I'm working as a labourer in construction I realize how easy I had it in my old job (I had own office, good salary, recognized by peers etc).
But I wanna enter IT industry, I've been around computers all my life (started on Commodore 64). Since I was 13 I dabbled with web development and I can set up blogs/static sites pretty easily. In January I started to learn to program in Python which you could say was my first real programming experience (I guess HTML, CSS doesn't count). It's going slow since I do it after work, I don't know anyone now who's a programmer so I go to SO all the time.
Now I'm 28, doing manual labour and dreaming about being a developer. I am just worried that I'm not gonna cut it ... I cannot afford to go study computer science but I have motivation to learn on my own.
I would be SO happy if I could do some entry-level programming. I'd be grateful for all the boring stuff programmers complain about - I'd even take smaller salary just to have experience (but I need to earn to pay for rent).
I just don't know how to do it. I'm feeling kind of scared and depressed about life.
TL;DR I really want to become programmer but I am worried it's too late for me. <comment><USER2> I'm 43. I programmed Basic as a kid on my TSR-80 and tinkered around a bit with things like HTML over the years but didn't consider programming as a career.

I got a degree in an unrelated field, did a lot of different things including manual labor, being a grower on a farm, working on a concrete crew etc. I had a construction contracting business with employees for over 5 years that fed me but eventually went bust. I then got a job as a project manager for a large outfit and was paid fairly well for nearly 10 years. It was extremely stressful with long hours and lots of travel.

I wanted to learn more about programming but just didn't have the time nor discipline. So finally, with a bit of money saved up, I just flat quit about 3 years ago. I started learning Python, Linux, SQL and JavaScript. All day every day. I wrote a bunch of junky projects, found out why they were junky, and did them better next time. I did odds and ends, fixed computers for folks here and there, cut my standard of living back, and kept reading and learning.

I got a break when some people I knew with a mission critical Access business application asked if I could help fix it. I re-wrote it using HTML, Python and Sqlite, set it up on a server, and they could access it from home. They were tickled pink and I got a little more work. It still wasn't enough to pay all the bills though. But I had a number of projects at this point. None on github, but that's not my world. A few weeks ago I saw an ad for a web developer at a large institution here in town (small town...far away from the tech centers) redoing their internal web applications. I went in, talked to the manager (an old perl programmer), gave him links to a few of my projects, (they got a lot better over the years), some sample code and was hired just like that. I start on Monday. I won't make as much initially as I did project managing but hey.... I'm excited. I have the programming bug and it's all I want to do. And I'm an old guy comparatively. So yes, it can be done.....

<comment><USER3> Yeah really an inspiring start you have.

All you need to do is just tweak your mindset and start believing in yourself and then the real magic happens.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You shouldn't worry about it. I worked with a guy that was did construction for at least 10 years before he went into a tech field. If that massive career shift didn't impact him, a few months while you finish up your self study definitely won't. I believe it show initiatives to a potential employer that you're trying to improve yourself and took a pretty hard job in the meantime to pay the bills.

</comment><comment><USER5> Life is long and careers are very short nowadays. While it's true that a CS degree from IV league school and a hacker career in google is probably quite difficult for you I assure you that for the more common jobs it is much more appreciated by employers that you have the skills to learn new material alone. I am now 33. I've been working in the investment industry since I was 17 and only when I was 28 I've changed carrers - to IT. It was very easy for me since (much like yourself) I loved learning alone and was always fascinated by computers. Last year I've changed careers again - this time to tech investments. If employers won't give you a chance, don't give them the opportunity to decline. Be creative. For example, try getting work as QA in start-ups and then move to junior dev inside the company, or take on web projects for free, bid low on Elance etc.

<comment><USER6> How did you do the change? I'm at the same age and want to make a change. Not to programming but some sort of IT, IT management, etc., not working a helpdesk, not programming. I'm currently a professional in an unrelated field (but one that the corporate world would appreciate in an IT professional), but as I've been on computers since the early 90s at age 8, I feel I made a mistake not pursuing my childhood obsession, in what was then a niche hobby, as a career. Is it possible to make this change and go into something like IT project management, architecture etc?

Any advice?

<comment><USER5> Yes, I have some advice, I'll start by telling you what I did. I had my mind set on going into high-tech for the same reasons you've described. I met with a startup that was bootstrapping his BI product at 2008, and convinced them to let me do sales & PS for them - for free, meaning I would only get paid if I sold the product and managed to sell some PS hours. In return they supplied training on their BI tool, naturally I had to learn a whole lot by myself - basic things that were then new for me - DB, sql etc, but I didn't mind since I loved computers since ever. After a few months of not selling almost nothing (wow, great surprise) my funds were running low, but I was already a different person. I knew what is a product, I knew what is a DB and how to connect to it etc, so I've found a junior job at a Qlikview (another BI tool) PS company. I picked up QV very fast and became very good with it, and after one year at the job was already the company's lead on financial BI. After this year I already had the technical expertise to get a job that combined my new career with my old career and became an IT economist, no longer a junior, in charge of migrating the organization's financial systems to SAP and maintaining the existing systems until the change.

My advice - just get in IT. Don't mind starting from the bottom, in the grand scheme of things 2-3 years of reduced salary is nothing. Look for a job in the IT of your field, for example, since I had financial background it was easy for me to get a job in financial BI, but I could get a job in any financial IT system as helpdesk, PS etc. To get this job you might have to get into a course or even learn some new skills at home after work. If you want specific ideas you can write here or email me your experience.

<comment><USER6> Thanks for taking the time to share your story; it's inspirational. I used to do things like what you did -- just approach people out of nowhere and offer to work for free, I guess I've lost that drive as I've gotten a bit older.

Since I'm currently self-employed, but business is a bit slow atm, I may be in a position to do something like that. I've been building sites, scripts, mysql dbs etc on an amateur level since I was 15, so I think I could pick up this stuff quickly.

I will take you up on the offer and email (is it username @gmail?) you as I could definitely use some guidance from someone who's been there. First I'll be doing more research to get caught up so as not to waste your time. Thanks!

<comment><USER5> No problem, it's firstname.lastname@example.com, feel free. I'm sure you can do it, Anyone that reads HN can do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> In a similar position as you, only a year younger. I hear of these 16 year old interns all the time and with a 10 year difference, I am constantly worried I am too far behind the curve. I have no formal CS "schooling" but I love to learn and learning comes naturally to me, so I've picked up quite a bit. To solidify my knowledge, I am thinking of going to one of the bootcamps and make my way into the industry.

That being said, as someone below mentions, I am TERRIFIED that even though I spend most of my free time coding, it will be far less enjoyable as a full- time career. But, on the flip side, I really do enjoy creating and building things with code.

I hate testing, I rather not work with someone else's code, etc. I love building. I would just have to set myself up to work for companies that are in the building stage where I am constantly working on something new. I think that can certainly be done.

Here is what it comes down to for me and why I am heading in this direction and why it is never too late:

\- I have dreams that involve technology (building things, running my own company)

\- If my dreams fail, what profession is going to set my up for long-term success and is going to be sustainable for the next 30 years. And I rather do it now at ~28 than regret not doing it in another 5 years. (Engineering)

\- I want to work in an industry that is moving the world forward with extremely intelligent people. (Goes back to, my job means nothing.)

\- And most importantly, there are examples and inspirations all over the world that show why it is never to late and that you can do what you put your mind to. The human mind and body is an unbelievable specimen. It will be hard, but you just have to decide. Just decide and go do it. Don't waste time because life is pathetically short. And you can be whoever you want to be.

It is your choice to wake up with a smile on your face everyday and to put a smile on other's faces. We all have to work to live, but what you do outside of your profession and how you have fun with your profession is what it is all about.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-jwWYX7Jlo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-jwWYX7Jlo)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep that's kind of my deal too. I don't like testing at all but I accept it as a part of the job. What draws me to programming is the creativity and building things. I know that most IT jobs aren't really creative but the experience you gather is great and I can always code in my free time. I really enjoy it so most of the time when I'm learning new stuff, it's fun to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm 32 now and come from a branding/marketing background. I have a degree related to mathematics and accounting (accounting can be interesting, but most part of it is boring). I came to Canada from China. So my previous experience is close to useless here.

I'm building my first app now. And it has been delayed as hell (already cost me one year full time on it, my family live on our previous savings) since I'm the only one to work on it. There are just too many things needed to be done. UI design, information architecture, strategy... The most challenging part is writing code for both ends. I have almost zero knowledge of programming. Even most of the tasks/concepts seems easy, however, there are simply too many to learn and practise. It goes worse when they come together. But I still want to ship my app, because I want to use it and I'm fascinating to test the idea. I want to see the result. Even with the worst result, I'll gain enough skills and cases to start a career in programming.

So just hang in there, no one is able to learn programming for you. If you don't fix question A today, it will be still there tomorrow and get in your way. Little by little, I think you'll see some results in 6 months. It's not a short period. But compared with our life span, it is worth it. Like others said, building something is a good way to have a learning/practice path. Good luck to you and all fellows in the same boat.

<comment><USER9> If you would elaborate what specific challenges you are facing learning, I am sure someone here wouldn't mind giving you advice.

<comment><USER8> I do use google/StackOverflow a lot. Here are some concepts and code I was struggling with:

1\. How server works

2\. Http related concepts

3\. Auth mechanism and password security, which encoding method to go

4\. Database options, neo4j/mongodb/sql

5\. Language options, ruby/js/golang

6\. Framework options, emberjs/flask/martini/rails

7\. Testing

Above are just some challenges I faced. As I mentioned previously, a single part in any field is not difficult to grasp, but to understand X, learners like me probably have to go further to have some idea of prerequisite knowledge. The time and energy on this can not be neglected. It also takes time to have new knowledge fully absorbed (or to a useful level). Before that, things can be chaos in my mind.

Perhaps my way to learn and practise is not very efficient. I did make progress, though. It's just a bit slow. I'm about to finish my client-side coding in a couple of months. Hopefully, I can ship before winter.

[Edit] Format revised

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I am 47 years old now and started to change my profession from Mechanical engineering to IT at the age of 29 years

As a failed entrepreneur in India i came to Singapore as a Mechanical engineer in 2006 and observed that IT was paying far better salary than mechanical and immediately went back to India after i had got my permanent residency for a 3 months study and came back and got a job in IT by telling my Hiring Manager to give me any salary for 3 months and if i am able to deliver give me good salary and was able to deliver.

Once i entered IT field i grew to senior project manager and spent too much time managing other developers and got hit by the start-up bug in 2008.

Unfortunately even though i was very technical, i did not have any programming experience and had to pick up everything by starting again.

If i can pick up again at 41 you can definitely pick up programming at 28.

The addictive part of programming is the problem solving aspect and the boring part is the actual writing (validation, idiot proofing, re-factoring) of good programs.

If you spend more time on the Problem solving aspects of programming, you will be able to learn more faster. Ex. Since you are working in construction, does your company require any useful information to be captured in a database using a website which they are currently doing in excel. Solve these types of problems and your skill will improve.

Find a problem to solve and solve it yourself by programming you will find it is faster and more interesting and you will persevere and ultimately succeed.

The problem gives you focus and solving the problem will give you skill.

</comment><comment><USER11> Short answer: yes, of course. A great many programmers are very young, and so I think our industry tends to get pretty myopic when it comes to career arcs, and even just time in general. There are many, many professional programmers who have less than 5 years training+experience combined. This isn't to say that _more_ experience and training won't open doors, because it will. But what I _am_ saying is that there's no reason to despair.

Consider: if you devoted yourself to reading and working on open-source projects or even some contracting, going to workshops/codeathons, local user groups, and etc., you could built up some expertise and even a pretty decent portfolio of work within a few short years. Give it even just 2-3 years of being disciplined with it, and you could very possibly have more to show for it than some who have been coasting in the industry for far longer. After 3 years, you would be only 31, and you could have a programming career for 20-30 years, if you so desired.

Bottom line: you can do it. But you gotta be ready to work hard and jump into things.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm more or less where you are (even formerly worked at a (local) tv station doing graphics and editing) only ten years older. I decided to take programming seriously because when I was laid off, it was a hobby and really the only other thing I was marginally good at.

The answer is - probably yes. I built a Linkedin profile and taught myself to use Github and created some projects and published some wordpress plugins over a couple of years. Since I also had a graphics degree (apparently worthless), I made some logos and a couple of wordpress sites for people, for pocket change. Nothing much has happened yet - occasional freelance work and I'm interning at a startup but, you know, it's probably never as hopeless as you think.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just to clear things out: I already did Learn Python The Hard Way all the way through and I think I understood like 90 percent of it (the last two exercises were a bit too much for me).

For now, I think I could focus on web development since I can setup Wordpress blogs or static pages and tweak CSS. My goal would be to become mobile app programmer/embedded programmer. So I thought about learning Swift - it's new I know but it feels a bit like Python.

I want to treat my self-teaching as something serious - set aside at least 10h weekly which I think I can do. It's just sad feeling for me ... new city, totally new job. But you all are encouraging while also setting real expectations = I'm determined to do this.

I will try to figure this out without CS degree. Taking a year off of work just to learn programming is something I might be able to do financially, I can just move out of Canada back home where it's 5x less expensive or to South East Asia where it's even less to focus on this.

I think the reason why I fear this is because I have no connection to other programmers. I am not shy, actually quite opposite, I have "cool" hobbies (film making, bmx bikes, music) but smart people are kind of intimidating, even more so when I'd like to discuss my projects with them.

Anyway, so far I programmed this little CLI utility (just to paint you a picture how "far" I've come from non-programming to newbie since Jan) -> [https://pypi.python.org/pypi?name=flashCardStudy&version=1.0...](https://pypi.python.org/pypi?name=flashCardStudy&version=1.0.4&:action=display)

Anyway I want to thank everyone for their input. I discussed how frustrated I am with my life with my girlfriend and she totally supports me - she'd be willing to push me through school = universities are "free" (paid from taxes) in my country so I just need money for rent and food. We have CS programmes where you obtain bachelor degree in three years but it's heavily connected to math which I kinda suck at. We'll see.

<comment><USER13> If you think you suck at maths, you might want to go through the Kahn academy videos. It will refresh anything you did cover and should fill a lot of gaps (of stuff you did but never understood properly). It will then make tackling CS level maths a lot easier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Being a programmer is not everything it is cracked up to be. My work involves much of what is considered to be at the top of the programmer food chain, but I am still unfulfilled and wish that I had been a park ranger or something like that instead.

<comment><USER15> I have the exact same feeling.. I think coding for a hobby and coding for a job is something really different.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Our field is wonderful in the way it encourages and rewards those who, with or without formal training, make things people want.

Learn by doing.

And if you feel now or in the future that you'd like a dash of fundamentals to go with your programming practice, you have options beyond those of traditional education. For example, Udacity has a great Introduction to Computer Science online class:

[https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101](https://www.udacity.com/course/cs101)

The free courseware includes the lectures and auto-graded exercises. It's Python-based, but goes beyond programming languages to touch on foundational CS concepts in general. Recommended.

</comment><comment><USER17> Don't believe anything you hear about a job requiring a 2-4 year CS degree. What's important here is that you know your stuff. Keep teaching yourself programming in your spare time (Python is a good choice, there's a higher dollar amount associated with Python devs compared to some other languages). I don't have a degree at all, and I'm currently working at my second development position making a lot more than I ever could have wished for, even if I had gotten a degree. Just keep on learning, and once you're comfortable, look for some places around you that are hiring, and don't be afraid to apply!

</comment><comment><USER18> If you like your current job, I think you should stay there. You can program in your spare time and try to build a good software.

As you are in a manual job, I think the end of the day you will not be so tired mentally, and you will have more energy to program stuff you like. In a company, probably, and most in the start of you career, you will got more boring stuff to do, and you will cannot choose what you want to do. Have you thought about this?

Beside of all of this, you need to choose what do you really like to do, if everything goes wrong, you can change again. Your experience will never be lost. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER19> Never give up. Start learning the languages you want to work with. The resources are out there and the community is more than supportive.

I'm 31 and just started to learn, I do get a little frustrated at times, but ultimately I know I'm good enough to get to the level of getting hired somewhere. The more you work on little side projects and ask questions, the more you realize that it is within reach.

When I was in grad school, I was 21, most of my colleagues were 30 and a couple in their 40s, who wanted to be professors. Just go after what you want and have fun while doing it.

</comment><comment><USER20> Have you considered going along to a couple of meetups around the sort of technology you're interested in working with? There are a lot of wordpress meetups around the world, for example. Or maybe even going along to a hackathon, if you'd like to try something a bit more deep tech? Those are both pretty low risk ways of meeting some other people who are into programming, see if you feel comfortable with the sort of work that gets done? It's also a good way of getting yourself known (leading to possible job offers).

</comment><comment><USER21> Not very helpful but personally I'm in a very similar situation - I've always worked on programming since I was a kid but never had the opportunity to get a degree and every single programming job in my area requires at minimum a 2 year CS degree, so I took a job as an industrial electrician which unfortunately means throwing out almost all of the knowledge that I've worked my entire life for.

I'd be very interested to see what others have to say about this, I doubt if it is a very uncommon problem at the moment.

<comment><USER22> tl;dr just go for it, don't care for the requirements, impress them.

Why i'm saying this? well ...

I don't have a CS degree, matter of fact i dropped out of university, i got hired three times as a developer in three different companies with a very good salary (compared to Palestine standards, since i live in Palestine), i switched jobs because i hated working for someone, so the last job i quit i decided to start my own startup, and now i am into a lot of programming projects.

I program in Ruby, JavaScript, PHP, C#, ActionScript, Java, and i play with other languages, i taught my self all that, so my friend you can do this and even do better, jut believe in your skills.

<comment><AUTHOR> Read your whole answer, thanks. I decided I'm gonna go for it no matter what.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Didn't start programming professionally until my early 30s. Quit my job to do it. Spent 9 months with no job teaching myself before landing my first job in software.

</comment><comment><USER24> I taught myself ( and continue to teach myself) programming by displacing my audio background which is similar to yours ( just replace all the video suite applications you mentioned with audio daw's like Pro Tools, Logic etc) and I learned JavaScript in parallel with the web audio api. I would suggest it might benefit you to you possibly follow the same path but learn the video-esk api's like Web RTC.

</comment><comment><USER25> I recently hired a 30 year old Rails developer who had completed a 3 month Rails crash course in London. He was an archeologist beforehand with no prior programming experience.

I'm so impressed with how it has turned out, I'm looking to make my next hire from the next batch of recruits.

If you can't afford a crash course like the one I mentioned, try Code Academy and Treehouse.

It is definitely not too late for you!

</comment><comment><USER22> I commented on a comment in this thread, but anyways, i just want to tell you, go for it! it's NEVER too late.

</comment><comment><USER26> Wow, this is so cool to read!

It reminds of exactly how I felt two years ago, before I quit my job chopping up bloody cows at a meatworks and "became" a programmer. If I can do it, so can you!

Like you, I thought my lack of connections or programming friends was the biggest hurdle. I came up with the following plan to get started:

1\. Build five small apps that I can put on my resume, and are built for some specific end-user (or group). 2\. Regularly contribute to an open source project I believe in 3\. Attend programming meetups to be around "programming people" (I attended Python and Functional Programming meetups)

I did not spend time on stackoverflow or blogging about code because they weren't the biggest thing I could do to get business. They were part of my plan originally but someone pointed this out and I took them off.

To build my resume I would build demos for small job adverts on Elance. I wouldn't apply for the job, only slowly complete it and put it on my resume so I appeared valuable. Later, I earned $1,350 over 5 months, before a small startup in Australia found my resume, liked the look of it, and asked me to join their team (earning more money that I've earned in my whole life!).

I didn't make any friends at the meetups but I'm 100% SURE you could. The groups were sponsored by local software companies, who provided office space and pizza in return for advertising their job openings. Other attendees would let everyone know about openings at their own company etc. The friendly, honest vibe will give you a much better chance than an interview, where there's a ton of pressure on the interviewer to pick a good person.

Read this, it's a great discussion about getting hired without "on the job experience": [http://www.quora.com/Computer-Programming/If-programmers- are...](http://www.quora.com/Computer-Programming/If-programmers-are-in-such- demand-why-are-companies-not-hiring-people-with-skills-that-lack-on-the-job- experience)

Also read this, don't get scared by the high level answers: [http://www.quora.com/Programming-Interviews/Whats-the- best-w...](http://www.quora.com/Programming-Interviews/Whats-the-best-way-to- prepare-for-a-software-engineering-job-interview) \- While you should definitely try learn as much as you can, at your stage you should concentrate on demonstrating your creativity, problem solving, willingness to work hard and ability to get results. Those questions are for programmers with high salaries on the line (but definitely read them)

Ramit Sethi's Earn1K course also helped. It taught me to communicate, sell my skills and find freelance work: [http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/announcing-the- ear...](http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/announcing-the-earn-your- first-1000-on-the-side-course/) (It paid for itself in 3 months)

The funnest way I've ever seen to do this (but expensive) is to completely immerse yourself during a programming bootcamp and surround yourself with the industry and like-minded people for a few weeks. Check out the following thread and scroll down to "Physical Academies": [http://www.quora.com/Learning-to-Program/What-are-the- best-w...](http://www.quora.com/Learning-to-Program/What-are-the-best-ways- for-a-complete-beginner-to-learn-programming)

Edit: If you've got time for a podcast, here's the story of a hollywood filmmaker (Jesse Lawler) who quit his job during the recession, became a programmer, and now runs a successful development agency: [http://www.tropicalmba.com/distributed/](http://www.tropicalmba.com/distributed/) (I liked the interview so much that I emailed him my "plan" back when I started. He gave me great advice and helped me refine my three steps above :)

Wow, sorry I babbled quite a bit, but I hope I shared at least one new and helpful thing with you!

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow thanks for all the input. I already decided I want to do this. What do you think of Python Group meetups? What are they like?

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> check out HackReactor.com which is the CS degree for the 21st century

<comment><USER28> Computer Science not detected.</comment></comment>


Hacker News clone - <AUTHOR> http://vuejs.github.io/vue-hackernews/ <comment><USER2> Nice, I also appreciate the collapsible threads!

Any chance you can add ordering of comments by date? That way it's easier to see new comments added since your last page view.</comment>


Now that Mozilla no longer updates Thunderbird, which email client should I use? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> What do you want to be done to Thundebird? There are still security updates, aren't there? If they continue to update Thunderbird, maybe they make many changes that are controversial and a step backwards?

e.g. here: [http://web.archive.org/web/20110904002532/http://weblogs.moz...](http://web.archive.org/web/20110904002532/http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2011/07/primary_thunderbird.html)

""It may turn out to be very difficult to support all three layouts (classic, wide, and vertical) without making each of them diverge further from each other, which is just an extra maintenance burden."

Then I propose dropping one or two of them and making the remaining one or two work as well as is humanely possible."

</comment><comment> mike-cardwell I'm a long time Thunderbird user but recently started using Evolution. I've tried it a few times in the past but didn't find the interface very appealing. It seems to have come a long way recently though and is being actively developed (1).

It worked out of the box with PGP. It worked out of the box with my LDAP based address book (both read _and_ write unlike Thunderbird). It also seems much faster to me.

(1) <https://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/>

</comment><comment><USER3> Why not keep using Thunderbird? It's not like the client or the numerous extensions are suddenly going to stop working.

That said, if you are on Linux, Geary (<http://www.yorba.org/projects/geary/>) is great open source email client, that's built ground up for conversation style mail.

</comment><comment><USER4> I've been using Postbox, which is some kind of fork of Thunderbird, for a while now and don't hate it.

<comment><USER5> "I don't hate it" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> GNUemacs.

</comment><comment> saiko-chriskun gmail.com

<comment><USER7> Right? I'm not sure what the allure of desktop email clients is. I could understand maybe if you found yourself offline a lot but what could you really accomplish without internet anyway? No new mail is coming in. You could compose messages but they wouldn't be sent. Just type up your message in text file and paste it into gmail once your connectivity is restored.

I guess I've just really missed the point of email clients or something cause people still make them and people still use them.

<comment><USER8> Well for me, I am going back to POP, actually. This is the only real way that I can be sure my 26+gb of 14 years of e-mail is safe. On my machine + backups.

You might say that is a lot of mail, an extreme case, but when you help people, have clients, customers, sell stuff, etc all communication should be saved in case.

<comment><USER7> Do you mean safe as in from corruption/deletion? Or safe from prying eyes?

If I had something digital that I really couldn't afford to lose, the first place I would turn is to Google. Same goes for security. They may have their AI bots peruse through my stuff so they can advertise to me but overall I would think data is probably safer in their hands than my own.

I know that's just my opinion. But they don't have a long record of losing data/being hacked.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Off-Facebook activity - <AUTHOR> https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/ <comment><USER2> Clearly I need to step it up. I was (unsurprisingly) surprised at what I've observed they've managed to correlate. I run standard pi-hole, resist fingerprinting, and normally go through a VPN (mainly because I'm on public wifi half the time when travelling). I haven't logged into facebook in about four years, just did it for the first time today to see what's been correlated.

Aside the mountain of irrelevant notifications, here's what I've observed in this report that's concerning.

1\. Albeit some data has been correlated properly (banking applications which is scary on it's own part it's sending data to facebook, imgur, Xbox, my telco provider, and a few misc blogs I've visited a handful of times per year), it's correlated a significant amount of data that may not belong to me (good thing, I suppose?)

2\. Why the heck are banking applications sending data to Facebook as "CUSTOM", with no context? For example, RBC bank in Canada sends "CUSTOM" data (haven't been with them for over two years, but all interacts labelled CUSTOM) and Facebook will not give any more context on the _exact_ data it received. Little scummy, Facebook.

Well, time to sweep this up and resist tracking more. Let's see how it works this time round.

<comment><USER3> You will want to use Firefox containers in order to isolate the Facebook cookie into a container to limit this.

<comment><USER4> Unfortunately there are no good answers for this on mobile.

<comment><USER5> if you're using android you can get add-ons for firefox. Also, you can use a firewall app like Netguard [1] to prevent apps from calling FB (graph.facebook.com)... I see most apps attempting to do this, and it's often the first thing they do.

There's similar setups on iOS, I am just not very familiar with the app names.

[1] [https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard](https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My off-facebook activity was empty. That's encouraging, because it looks like my countermeasures have been working:

\- Fingerprinting resistance in Firefox (privacy.resistFingerprinting = true)

\- First-party isolation in Firefox (privacy.firstparty.isolate = true)

\- Blocking third-party cookies in Firefox (network.cookie.cookieBehavior = 1)

\- Firefox container when I need to login to ad/tracking companies (Facebook, Google)

\- uBlock Origin

\- Cookie AutoDelete

\- PiHole on my home network

<comment><USER7> How do you cope with constant reCAPTCHA prompts? I get prompted by Google when using search, because it thinks I'm a bot if I'm anonymous enough.

<comment><USER8> There should be an extension to automatically filter the reCAPTCHA-using sites out of the results of the search engines.

<comment><USER9> I think GP is saying that Google itself is presenting the captchas, not the Google results they click. I've had it happen a couple of times when using VPNs before.

<comment><USER8> reCAPTCHA is a Google product, but the owner site needs to actually integrate it, so it's a conscientious decision

<comment><USER9> I might not have been clear; sometimes when using a VPN, you can't even load Google search results until you submit a captcha. If you go to "google.com", it will make you enter a captcha before you can search anything.

<comment><USER8> Ah that's fair, Google captchas VPN users, but I don't think it's recaptcha, it doesn't look exactly the same.

Having done this in a previous life, they do this because they fight against scrapping their search results.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> To me the thing that bothered me most was that a mental health site (Psychologytoday.com) that I used to find a therapist was passing the information on my searches to Facebook, presumably to aid in targeted advertising.

Honestly, I think that health-related searches that are directly tied to a specific individual (especially without informed consent - I didn't log in or receive any notice this was being done) should be covered by HIPPA just like any other personally identifiable health record.

The other weird one was the huge amount of data my bank was sending. 20+ requests per session. I have no idea why they would do that.

<comment><USER11> This needs to be brought to the attention of legislators. Our digital health data needs to be protected like it is in a real world setting.

I wonder what Google is doing with all those health related searches I'm making...

<comment><USER10> I think a solution would be for people to own their own personally identifiable information, in much the same way that a celebrity can own their "likeness".

Unauthorized copying or use of this information could be simple copyright infringement, which is apparently criminal enough to involve the FBI if you are a movie studio with enough money spend on political donations.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Wow that's creepy. It lists apps where a) I didn't use FB login/signup and b) used a different email address to sign up. How do they cross-reference that to me? Hand how can I prevent that outside of their tools (which I assume still violate my privacy)?

<comment><USER13> What you can do to prevent this is:

1) Install [https://www.eff.org/privacybadger](https://www.eff.org/privacybadger) to prevent trackers from being loaded

2) Install [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie- autode...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autodelete/) to delete any cookies you might have accepted after a week time or so, which prevents the infinite gobbling-up of your data after innocently accepting a cookie once

3) Install the Google, Facebook, Twitter and Amazon containers to "separate" your browsing with these sites from the rest of your browsing. Links: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/facebook- cont...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/facebook-container/) [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/twitter- conta...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/twitter-container/) [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google- contai...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-container/) [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/amazon- contai...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/amazon-container/)

Also, if you are creeped out by this, just imagine the amount of data Google has on you. I'm convinced they have way more, just by virtue of every website having Google Analytics installed.

<comment><USER14> Those are good, but they don't work for what the GP is talking about. I'm seeing games/apps associated with my FB account even though I never logged in to FB with them or gave them any info. I literally just opened the app and that activity was associated with my FB account.

I have no idea how they're doing this, since they didn't even request storage access (or I didn't give it). Can any Android developer here chime in on how an app can figure out my Facebook ID even though I don't even have Facebook installed on my phone and didn't give any sort of credential or access to the app?

<comment><USER15> I think they cross-reference Android Advertising ID in their SDK. Have you ever logged to Facebook from your phone?

[https://developers.facebook.com/docs/app- ads/targeting/mobil...](https://developers.facebook.com/docs/app- ads/targeting/mobile-advertiser-ids/)

<comment><USER14> I have, either in the browser or in Swipe (a third-party app). I've never logged in to or installed the Facebook app or Messenger.

<comment><USER15> Try to opt out of Advertising ID (Settings -> Google -> ads) and see if apps continue to be associated with your facebook account. I suspect Swipe sent both your account ad advertising id during login.

<comment><USER14> I opted out of Google advertising a long time ago, I think in the end it was Instagram/WhatsApp that did the dirtywork.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In my profile, they managed to obtain a `PURCHASE` event from Macy's -- for an _in-person purchase at a physical store_. Macy's has my email address and certainly linked it to my credit card number, but this is nonetheless seriously creepy.

I just tried to change my email address on Facebook and discovered that they canonicalize plus and dot variations in gmail.com addresses, and thus claim that the new email address is already associated with an account. Ended up having to create a completely new email alias on my own domain.

<comment><USER17> >, they managed to obtain a `PURCHASE` event from Macy's

interesting.. they could use that to predict earnings..

<comment><USER18> You don't even necessarily have to predict earnings. If you've ever connected to your financial account via a service like Plaid or it's ilk, that service has an API endpoint[1] they can call to neatly package up your income information. Sometimes it seems innocuous and unassuming for a one time use like identity verification, or to set up automated payments, or a one off transfer/disbursement. Other times it's for stuff like getting a consolidated view of your personal finance (i.e. a transaction aggregator such as Mint). But if you authenticate for anything, that service has access to everything.

And unless you rotate your financial passwords on a frequent basis, that access continues pretty much indefinitely[2].

[1] [https://plaid.com/products/income/](https://plaid.com/products/income/)

[2] Not true for 100% of cases, but a general rule of thumb that's applicable to the majority of institutions they log into with your credentials.

<comment><USER10> By "they" I assumed the GP was talking about Facebook being able to predict Macy's earnings before they were publicly announced. That would be pretty interesting to see :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> My first reaction to this was to be creeped out. Even being in the industry how did all of these sites (560) have data about me that they were willingly sending to Facebook without my permission. And while I have a Facebook account, I am not a Facebook user – as in I've logged in twice in the last year to see a neighborhood post or the like.

But then I went from creeped out to oh shit as sites I run were on the list. The way Facebook puts it, these businesses are actively sharing data with Facebook for the businesses benefit. But as a developer who has been asked to put a pixel on a site many times, I have to rethink the data exchange here. Obviously the sites are not getting the benefit that Facebook is receiving from everyone piping in data – often unknowingly.

<comment><USER20> > Obviously the sites are not getting the benefit

How is that obvious?

Surely sites would eventually stop going through the extra effort to maintain trackers if they didn't get a benefit?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I realize this is an unpopular opinion around here... but can anyone explain how they have actually been harmed by this? Like for real not in abstract notions of "creepiness" or whatever. I, for one with Facebook actually figured how to do something useful with that data and not be that raw sewage stream that basically led to stop logging in.

<comment><USER22> The harm is that Facebook gains control over prediction markets that they then sell to the rich and powerful to nudge enough of the population to their points of view. These points of view are often not in the general public interest.

<comment><USER23> Agree here; Given the insane hours that people spend in FB, the feed becomes part of their reality and better nudges affect their outlook on the world, their spending decisions and their political directions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Hmm. I have no website activity listed - but seemingly every single Android game and a few other apps is sending "activity" to FB, despite me never using any feature to associate the two. This sounds like: [https://privacyinternational.org/report/2647/how-apps- androi...](https://privacyinternational.org/report/2647/how-apps-android- share-data-facebook-report)

Any sensible way of stopping this?

<comment><USER25> Blocking the entire Facebook ASN at the firewall/network level stops this. Google is a bit more tricky as they also have GCP so you can't block their ASN without also blocking innocent services.

<comment><USER26> How does one do this?

<comment><USER24> Specifically, how do you do it on a normal Android device? Is it even possible to do this on an iOS device that's on 4G or someone else's wifi? Do iOS devices have the same "leak"?

<comment><USER27> > Is it even possible to do this on an iOS device that's on 4G

No.

> Is it even possible to do this on an iOS device that's on [...] someone > else's wifi

Yes, since you can do it on your device, and do not have to do it on the router. Drawback is you have to do it for each Wifi network anew.

> Do iOS devices have the same "leak"

Yes, there is nothing that prevents apps from phoning home (or phoning every one of a dozen data collection "partners")

<comment><USER28> >> Is it even possible to do this on an iOS device that's on 4G

> No.

If it is a DNS server change on 4G/LTE, it can be done by using FOSS apps like DNSCloak on iOS. [1]

[1]: [http://github.com/s-s/dnscloak](http://github.com/s-s/dnscloak)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I was surprised to see that Plex is sharing a bunch of interactions with Facebook despite me only signing in with email. They seem to just blindly correlate the email address with whatever Facebook account it points to. There is no mention of Facebook on their privacy page[1]. As a lifetime Plex Pass holder this has damaged my credibility with them.

One of their employees says this is in error[2] so hopefully it will be fixed.

I guess signing in with email is pretty much equivalent to contacting Facebook if this is possible to do.

Besides that there are physical retailers that send data to Facebook even though I don't recall giving them any idea identifying info. I feel powerless since I rely on Messenger for communication with friends, who I've tried and failed to convince to switch elsewhere.

[1] [https://www.plex.tv/about/privacy-legal/privacy- preferences/](https://www.plex.tv/about/privacy-legal/privacy-preferences/)

[2] [https://forums.plex.tv/t/why-is-plex-sharing-my- activities-w...](https://forums.plex.tv/t/why-is-plex-sharing-my-activities- with-facebook/534222/5)

<comment><USER30> Yeah, I was really surprised to see Plex in my friend's off-FB-activity list. I've been wanting to switch to Emby, but I already have a Plex lifetime membership, and it would be difficult to get friends to make the switch. I'm not liking Plex's direction with getting into the streaming business, along with this FB spyware mishap.

<comment><USER31> > it would be difficult to get friends to make the switch

Could you elaborate on why this is an issue? Plex doesn't really have network effects and is usually only managed by 1 person.

Maybe you give your friends access to your instance? In which case it seems like they are in no position to complain.

<comment><USER32> Emby doesn't have good apps for as many platforms as plex does. I use plex on my PS4 where Emby doesn't have an app.

<comment><USER30> Yeah, this is probably the main reason. I know two friends who use Plex exclusively on their PS4.

I'm also not the only one in my group maintaining a Plex server, so they'd incur a transitioning cost as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Deliveroo has evidently been sending them all my orders. Or at least, there are as many 'interactions' as I have made orders. I don't log in via my Facebook so that is an unwelcome surprise.

<comment><USER34> Same here. I had to recollect if I even signed up with Facebook. After checking my Deliveroo settings, it seems that my FB account isn't even connected. This is insane...

<comment><USER35> Do you use the same e-mail address for both Deliveroo and Facebook?

If so, that could be how they matched you. Facebook lets businesses create custom retargeting audiences[1] from existing customers, and you can (obviously) include interaction data in order to segment e.g. frequent customers from occasional customers.

1\. [https://www.facebook.com/business/help/1472206006327390](https://www.facebook.com/business/help/1472206006327390)

<comment><USER33> I suppose that would explain it. I can't see what Deliveroo get out of it though, and how they might expect Facebook to have a better handle on what sort of food I would order and how often as opposed to Deliveroo themselves, who know. I wonder if they have plans for service expansion into "Deliveroo but for X" and want to see what their customers are into. Or perhaps they want to see if I am two-timing them with Just Eat!

Funny, I now remember reading a post from someone claiming that if they ordered an online grocery shop off a company that was not their usual, like magic a voucher would appear from their original company. I assumed this was coincidence, but this is the exact mechanism that such a thing could happen.

Of course this could also just be a manifestation of the trend of companies desiring data for data's sake, and a load of deliveroo managers are sitting in a meeting somewhere looking at a graph showing an intersection of people who are into retro computing and also like burritos and trying to brainstorm some strategy off such trivia.

<comment><USER35> > how they might expect Facebook to have a better handle on what sort of food > I would order and how often as opposed to Deliveroo themselves

That's not really the idea - they're just trying to serve you ads wherever they think you might see them. Retargeting (whether it's through Facebook ads or AdWords or what have you) is one more engagement lever alongside push notifications, emails, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I had a few - all of them from my Android apps and via Facebook business tools i.e. the vendors are actively pushing my data to Facebook. One utility app that I'm not surprised about, one that I'm a bit more surprised about but the interesting bit was G-Shock Connect (for the watch).

I installed their app once, figured it doesn't properly do the only thing I needed it for (show battery charge level), and I went to uninstall it. How did it find itself on Facebook?

The app wasn't given any permissions and I did not enter any personal information. The TOS did require giving consent to sending app and watch usage data but I didn't tick allowing that for marketing purposes nor was personal information mentioned, just identification data from the phone itself, operating system etc.

The app must have obtained my phone number or email from the phone's personal data. Apparently that's possible even if I declined all explicit permissions. They might be able to find my Google email by using Android's AccountManager apis. Phone number might be possible but slightly tricky and I think I disconnected my phone number from Facebook way before installing their app.

Interesting stuff - looks like everything should run in an anonymous container by default on phones, too. I hope we'll get there soon. Still, a lot of this is based on trust rather than technical countermeasures. Will you trust the vendor or not?

</comment><comment><USER37> Allegedly, I ditched my Facebook account years ago. Not just deactivated but delete, though I don't really believe it. Is there anyway to see what's in this (or to see if my account really is gone) without accidentally re-upping?

<comment><USER38> I had deactivated my account about a year ago. I tried logging in to view this page, and it reactivated everything immediately. Also, it has clearly been linking a vast quantity of off-facebook activity despite my account being deactivated.

<comment><USER39> Facebook provides two different options, one is deactivation and the other one is deleting. They are not the same thing. If you merely deactivated it, then your account never was deleted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> If you want to disable facebook tracking out of facebook in the future, it's possible on this link: [https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/future_activi...](https://www.facebook.com/off_facebook_activity/future_activity)

EDIT: the link doesn't seem to work, so you can click on "Manage Future Activity" => "Manage Future Activity" in the popup => Disable "Future Off- Facebook Activity"

<comment><USER41> One warning it gives me:

> We will still receive future activities from companies and organisations you > visit. These might be used for analytics and to improve our advertising > systems, but will not be connected to your account.

(Translated from Dutch because for some reason Facebook figured I'd want this particular message in Dutch.)

<comment><USER42> Extrapolation: "Account" here means the Facebook account created by you and visible to you; probably distinct from "Profile" in their lingo, which is all the data they have on you, of which most is invisible to you. If this is true, that's not an opt-out for data collection, just a choice to keep that info from showing in your account while merrily continuing to build your profile.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Man I feel hopeless.

I have not connected my Facebook account for over 90% of these sites/apps but they still sent my data to Facebook.

<comment><USER44> They probably just have a Like button on their website, which passes on data even if you don't click it. Use a request blocker like uBlock Origin.

<comment><USER45> You don't need anything on your frontend to share data with Facebook. Facebook doesn't acquire information like what shirt you bought by putting a like button a page. Your clothing retailer is willfully sharing that information for marketing benefits.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Is it just me, or is there no way to download activity details? I click on an activity, then there's a few examples and a link to download, but this leads to a generic "Download your information" page and I cannot see an entry for the app or off-facebook specifically...

How can I block it? some apps are on my iPhone, but I don't have the Facebook app on it (I do have messenger), and only used the apps on the phone. Aren't they isolated in some way?

<comment><USER47> For downloading the data there is an option to download "Ads and Businesses" under "Information About You". I just downloaded it, and it includes all data that was shared.

However, the data only shows the source, timestamp and activity ID. The actual event data is not included..

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I deleted my Facebook a couple months ago. Now I wish I would have kept it just a little longer to see what they had on me.

But in the end I still would have deleted it. Facebook clearly can't be trusted with my data. Idc what connections it gives me. They have shown time and time again that they will exploit the tiniest things to predict and manipulate your behavior.

And apparently companies desperate for even slight up ticks in conversion rates will upload everything they know about you.

No wonder Cambridge Analytica, AggregateIQ, and Robert Mercer had such an easy time compiling psychological profiles and categories of Americans and Brits.

In the end, it's real simple. The human brain adjusts based on the environment and events around it. Id rather not have Zuckerberg, Dorsey, or anyone else they deem worthy, intentionally or otherwise playing around in my head.

<comment><USER49> It's still there.

Try logging in. You might have to reset your password, but the bastard's haven't really deleted it.

<comment><USER50> I tried this, but it only gives me the option to sign up. I think I deleted my account around two years ago, and it's seemingly really gone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I feel like this stuff actually creeps me out more since I deleted my Facebook account. I didn't deactivate, I completely deleted.

I'm near 100% sure they're still trying to track & sell me, but without an account I can't even see it.

<comment><USER52> Back when I got rid of my account there wasn't an option to immediately delete an account. It first had to be deactivated, and would supposedly be deleted after a two-week cool-down period.

<comment><USER51> Yes I went through that too. It was about 2 years ago.

They sent me all the warnings that they were deleting anything.

Do I believe them at all? Not really?

<comment><USER36> I know people who have left Facebook and then much later come back, setting up a new account with new credentials and Facebook could still begin to suggest old friends and interests.

<comment><USER23> Isn't that because they can still match the friends side to the new data? They still have half of the matches and once you give them your half they will suggest the same stuff.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> I was asked to "sign in" to "facebook" therefore I have no idea what this post is about.

(seriously, concerned citizens should consider browsing fb incognito and never stay signed-in)

<comment><USER54> I agree with this advice. I treat facebook.com like a warez site from the 90s: actively hostile. So far only off-site activity tracking came from AirBnB.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> The linked page displays nothing but "You must log in to continue" if you don't have a Facebook account. I searched around and found this news page that explains it: [https://about.fb.com/news/2019/08/off-facebook- activity/](https://about.fb.com/news/2019/08/off-facebook-activity/)

</comment><comment><USER56> A bit weird that my Monzo seems to be sending data to Facebook?

<comment><USER57> Hmm, that feels incident worthy.

My bank should send precisely zero things to advertising / marketing companies.

Have you raised it with their Help team? You should.

Unfortunately I cannot as I do not have a facebook account so cannot determine whether or not facebook hold data on me without creating an account.

<comment><USER20> You might (justifiably) not like it, and it might inspire you to boycott the business or plead for regulatory relief, but it's not an "incident" _from their perspective_ to be intentionally doing what they do to run their business.

<comment><USER57> This is a bank, and they are regulated. Depending on the information shared, this may be a breach of that regulatory code.

I do not have access to see what the data is, but would certainly in their shoes investigate with high priority, and Would raise a security incident to do so. If it turns out to be empty and of no concern, then great. But ignoring such things is seldom wise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Apparently my website is complicit in this... I'm disgusted with and ashamed of myself.

[https://i.imgur.com/Wz7O8HU.png](https://i.imgur.com/Wz7O8HU.png)

Edit: typo complacenet to complicit, thanks Zarel.

<comment><USER59> You mean you didn't know _this_ would happen by adding something (script, tracker, pixel, etc.) to your site, or you don't have a root cause as to why your own site is sending data to FB?

<comment><USER58> I didn't assume that Facebook would explicitly connect this information with the visitors in this way. I don't remember WHY I added the pixel but I did add it. I need to get rid of these things, and Disqus.

I was probably trying to do some research on visitor demographics, which presumably failed.

<comment><USER60> > I need to get rid of these things, and Disqus

There're open source track free comments:

[https://www.discourse.org/](https://www.discourse.org/)

[https://commento.io/](https://commento.io/)

[https://www.talkyard.io/blog-comments](https://www.talkyard.io/blog-comments)

All of them are equally ads and tracking free, and have optional paid hosting services (if you don't want to self host). I'm developing the last one, Talkyard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Apparently Blind made the list. So much for 'anonymous'

</comment><comment><USER62> Anyone else thrown off that "Download Activity Details" (which seems to be the only way you can find out _what_ interaction was sent) leads to the main Download Your Information page, and not to anything specific to that app or that interaction?

</comment><comment><USER63> Revolut is sending data to them, too. 202 interactions for my account.

<comment><USER64> And the last date they received information about me according to Facebook is the last date I used the app. Revolut mentions "Analytics providers" in their privacy policy as companies they are sharing my data with.

<comment><USER63> For me it seems there is a 3-day difference between the last time I've used the app (today) and the last time they shared data with facebook.

<comment><USER65> >The summary doesn't contain your most recent activity. It may take a few days for your activity to show in your off-Facebook activity. The dates in your activity summary are when we received the activity.

[https://www.facebook.com/help/2207256696182627](https://www.facebook.com/help/2207256696182627)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> If Google and Facebook is ready to "show" these data, I wonder what and how much data they are hiding.

<comment><USER67> Good point. I also wonder what the motivation behind this tool is.

Furthermore, I don't understand how any of this is GDPR-compliant.

<comment><USER68> > Good point. I also wonder what the motivation behind this tool is.

Probably to tell regulators and politicians that "transparency is in our dna" we design tools to help users know who is interacting with their data

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> There's a little note saying that the list may not be complete. If you click that, they pop up an explanation, one of the bullet points in which says this:

> We receive more details and activity than what appears here. For technical > and accuracy reasons, this list doesn't show all of the activity that we've > received. Activity that is not shown includes information that we've > received when you're not logged in to Facebook, or when we can't confirm > that you've previously used Facebook on that device. It also includes > details such as the item that you added to your shopping basket.

It seems to me that this gives them carte blanche to omit _anything_ they feel like omitting.

</comment><comment><USER70> Real nice that there is no bulk turn-off feature. Giant pain to click through a few hundred sites to block future activity. But I suppose that's the point, right? To make it as difficult as possible for users to block this kind of oh- shit creepy behavior.

<comment><USER71> There is not turn-off at all. If you read carefully you will see that they will still collect the data, just that they "promise" won't assign it to you. Yeah right :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Blind app send interactions to Facebook. This defies the whole point of blind app. This is so wrong on so many levels.

<comment><USER73> This was the most shocking for me. How is Blind getting my FB info from the app? Is there a way to prevent this on Android?

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> I don't use Facebook, but I do use Messenger as I have a couple of close family members who refuse to use anything else. I've just logged into Facebook (which has no history as I've purged it[1]), and still there are 5 apps sharing my activity with Facebook. These 5 apps are all on my phone, so I guess Messenger is also sharing back to FB. :( \---

[1] Shameless plug: [https://github.com/Jaruzel/DeleteFacebookActivity](https://github.com/Jaruzel/DeleteFacebookActivity)

 _[Cross-posted from the other thread]_

</comment><comment><USER75> That's so funny that they come up with this page these days.

"We receive Jane's off-Facebook activity and we save it with her Facebook account. The activity is saved as "visited the Clothes and Shoes website" and "made a purchase"."

I downloaded my data before, and never have I seen what exactly the listed companies sent to FB.

I have a list of just a few companies (mainly by using a different email address for FB only) but still, I have no idea what these companies sent to FB about me.

Edit: I found the data now - it's now available for export.

</comment><comment><USER76> NETFLIX. The regular "payment" records don't concern me but the "custom" records (as recent as last night) do. Is that viewing data or what is this? I've also got "custom" records from HULU, but the last one was in December.

This isn't necessarily sinister... but it certainly raises some questions on what these streaming video companies are telling Facebook on a regular basis.

</comment><comment><USER77> Be sure to find both settings: the one to clear activity up to now, and the _separate_ one to ensure that future activity is not tracked either.

</comment><comment><USER78> ... wow.

You know, you hear about tracking cookies but it's a whole other thing to see it staring you in the face. What's the most shocking is how _small_ so many of these entries are. Like, there's a local children's day-camp and sports facility that I send my kids to on P.A. days on the list. And a local politician's page.

</comment><comment><USER79> There is nothing on this page I was not aware of and intentionally linked (e.g. Strava).

So does this mean I am successfully stopping them from tracking websites I visit via tracking pixels / IP mapping / whatever other nefarious shit they do, or are they just not showing this information here?

</comment><comment><USER80> One thing I'm not clear on - when I click on Coinbase (just one example) I see the following under 'What you can do';

\- View coinbase.com

\- Turn off future activity from coinbase.com

\- Give feedback about this activity

Does 'turn off' mean they won't share this information again, or that I won't be told about it again?

<comment><USER81> I believe the vague wording is intentional, so they can just stop displaying it to you, while continuing to collect the data. It's like how "delete account" works.

<comment><USER71> It's not that vague, if you do click to disable you are taken to page that words it quite directly.

<comment><USER81> OK, maybe "misleading" is more suitable.. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> >We receive more details and activity than what appears here. For technical and accuracy reasons, this list doesn't show all the activity that we've received. Activity that is not shown includes information we've received when you're not logged into Facebook, or when we can't confirm that you've previously used Facebook on that device.

So, basically all the information they have on me? I don't log in to facebook all that often. By not helping them survive me, they'll coyly pretend like they have less surveillance data tied to my account in their database than they do. I doubt they're going to purge those surveillance records "technical and accuracy" reasons.

</comment><comment><USER83> "just must log in to read this"

Can someone please share it?

<comment><USER84> It's a page for people with an account at FB that lists the 3rd party websites that have given information to FB.

> _Off-Facebook activity includes information that businesses and > organisations share with us about your interactions with them, such as > visiting their apps or websites._

It's creepy.

> _We receive more details and activity than what appears here. For technical > and accuracy reasons, this list doesn 't show all of the activity that we've > received. Activity that is not shown includes information that we've > received when you're not logged in to Facebook, or when we can't confirm > that you've previously used Facebook on that device. It also includes > details such as the item that you added to your shopping basket._

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> I can't believe that this stuff is acceptible, or even legal. The fact that you're tracked off-Facebook (for instance), even if you're not logged in or on Facebook is not just creepy, but borderline abusive.

<comment><USER21> Congratulations, of all the people who have responded with outrage on this thread, you are the only person I've found that has a website listed that DOESN'T run Google Analytics or some other third party analytics platform.

<comment><USER85> Thanks, but what value does your appeal to people's hypocracy bring to this discussion?

<comment><USER21> [https://xkcd.com/386/](https://xkcd.com/386/)

<comment><USER85> Point is, though, someone being hypocritical doesn't make their argument wrong - claiming that it does is a fallacy [0].

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> Now we need a one click delete all data in account button, without 'deleting' the account, because 'deleting' your facebook account doesn't delete any of the data inside of it.

</comment><comment><USER59> Interestingly, _none_ of the other "big brother" companies show up on my activity feed, even though I do use them. No Apple. No Amazon. No Google. No Netflix. Not even Microsoft.

Anyone else??

Wow, this is beyond creepy.

</comment><comment><USER87> Clearly they've come to the realization that they either do this voluntarily or future regulation will force them to do it. The beginning of the end of hyper-targeted online advertising has started.

</comment><comment><USER88> Nowhere to hide.

Just a few days ago I wanted to research some nasty disease and I used brave on TOR to watch some stuff about it on YT.

First thing after I opened FB was a clinical laboratory tests adv.

</comment><comment><USER89> The fact that they have information about apps that I specifically chose to not link to facebook for variety of reasons...

Including one specific app that they have 356 interactions from that I really do not want associated with my facebook account.

Looks like I am going to be spending the next couple of days digging through the report I just generated.

When this is all server side is the only option to make an email that is only for facebook and hope they can't link data any other way?

<comment><USER25> The fault is half on Facebook but also half on the providers & services sending the data to Facebook. The Facebook SDK or tracking pixel doesn't magically embed itself into apps or websites, it's still up to the developer to include this.

I suggest stopping doing business with that vendor and letting them know why.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> It would be good to name and shame every vendor that shares data with Facebook and have them in a searchable list, so people can check before engaging with them.

</comment><comment><USER90> What are the best ways to protect against this kind of tracking? I would argue it's probably better to keep a Facebook account so you can see what they're tracking and work to prevent it.

In my browser I'm running uBlock Origin, HTTPS Everywhere, and Privacy Badger. I'm guessing those will help quite a lot. However on an iPhone what can I do (as that's where a lot of this data seems to be coming from)?

<comment><USER6> Keep in mind that Facebook probably has a few unique identifiers from you apart from browser cookies:

\- Email address

\- Cell phone number (even if you only used it for 2FA)

\- Credit card number (if you ever made a donation via Facebook or bought digital currency in a Facebook game)

\- Advertising ID of your mobile device (can be reset in Android as well as iOS)

In order to avoid tracking, you have to make sure that none of these are known to Facebook and to other companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> I removed my Facebook info from my browser and phone, changed the info I had on there to be basically anonymized (except to people who know me), and then logged in with a different browser on both desktop and phone dedicated to just Facebook. Now they can't tell what websites I'm going to and don't have direct access to my photos and files etc.

</comment><comment><USER92> Kinda surprised how many interactions I've had tracked from my visits to Home Depot, I've only recently started stopping by there in the past year or so. What data could they have possibly even used? Sell me more cardboard moving boxes? Plant supplies?

<comment><USER59> You'd be surprised... Both are multi-billion-dollar industries:

[https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry- analysis/cardboar...](https://www.grandviewresearch.com/industry- analysis/cardboard-box-container-market)

[https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/market-research- repo...](https://www.ibisworld.com/united-states/market-research- reports/nursery-garden-stores-industry/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> ... html/js allowing requests to domains other than the one in my URL bar was a mistake.

</comment><comment><USER93> Weirdly, FB thinks I've had dealings with Home Depot, which I've never visited (virtually or IRL). Nothing else, but then I use Ublock Origin, Privacy Badger, disconnect.me etc. as well as FB Purity. I also don't have a smartphone.

</comment><comment><USER94> > You must log in to continue.

Nah, I will pass.

<comment><USER95> I couldn't open the link either. I have only the URL to go on, but the irony is... glaring.

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> Four days before the UK general election, Facebook apparently "received activity" relating to me from an anonymous, icon-less organisation with a cryptic name, who appear to be completely un-googleable.

Well, that's reassuring.

<comment><USER97> Nice FUD there.

> icon-less organisation with a cryptic name

Oh my god what if they're foreign? Isn't it terrifying to think about foreigners? Better take that fear into the voting booth with you.

<comment><USER96> Er, what? Where did I mention anything about them being foreign?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> "You have no available activity to show at this time."

Qubes OS with disposable VMs helps!

</comment><comment><USER99> I apparently have no records of off-Facebook activity. This is probably because of blocking all 3rd-party cookies and enabling the blocking of social media trackers in both uBlock as well as that built into Firefox.

</comment><comment><USER100> Seems like most of my data they got from apps on my Android phone, there was even an app that I just installed, opened and uninstalled in less then a minute without even logging in or anything.

How can I block them in the future?

<comment><USER101> set the "limit ad tracking" feature on your phone at the os level and the advertising id will become unavailable to everything. On Android this is Settings > Privacy > Advanced > Opt out

</comment></comment><comment><USER102> I am in Europe, so by law (GDPR) I have the right to make them delete all of this data.

How do I do so?

Also, I never consented to this being collected. How can their practice of collecting this type of data be GDPR compliant?

<comment><USER64> You can disable to storage of this data on the linked page.

But I'd recommend going to the source: Read the privacy policy of each party delivering data and check if they mention it. I already sent a mail to the DPO of an app provider which shows up in this list and doesn't mentions Facebook in their privacy policy.

<comment><USER102> Even if the app had it in their privacy policy, that would not mean it is legal to send your data to Facebook.

GDPR requires the users _consent_ to do so. Having a statement in a privacy policy is imho not enough to qualify as consent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER103> In case of Facebook, one has to wonder, is this a move towards consumer privacy, or a way for Facebook to clear cache so they could build a more up to date profile of you.

</comment><comment><USER104> These apps are from my phone which does not have the facebook app installed. They must be harvesting stuff on me from the Instagram and/or Whatapp permissions.

</comment><comment><USER105> Literally the first result in the list of companies that shared data about me with FB is my pharmacy. My pharmacy! That's just... wrong.

</comment><comment><USER106> When is Facebook's next investor call? The number of newly active users (who showed up for this) is going through the roof!

</comment><comment><USER107> I clicked the link and was told I needed to log into Facebook to continue.

Is it necessary to have a FB account in order to read TFA?

<comment><USER108> It's not an article, it's a link to an overview of all the "off-facebook activity" data that facebook has gathered on your (the logged in) profile

</comment></comment><comment><USER109> What is this? I only get a login prompt. I don't have a fb account.

Would s/o mind explaining what this is all about.

</comment><comment><USER110> Emirates NBD Bank app and CAREEM app are sharing info with Facebook.

It was very surprising to see ENBD in the list.

</comment><comment><USER111> never installed facebook app on a phone, but multiple 3rd party apps on the phone report to facebook. For some reported apps i've never been logged in.

looks like facebook knows my phone's "hardware id" from somewhere

edit: good to know that uBlock blocked all web activity

</comment><comment><USER72> Now imagine what google has on you.

</comment><comment><USER112> Ah, so disappointing that I need a Facebook account to read this. The joy of missing out.

</comment><comment><USER113> My payroll and accounting systems are talking to Facebook about me. Why? I have no idea.

<comment><USER25> Is it FreeAgent by any chance? I use it (but can't check as I don't have a Facebook account) and if it is that one then I will definitely be looking to switch away as this is unacceptable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER114> Is there a way to tell how Facebook is tracking you if you deleted your account?

</comment><comment><USER115> Can someone post a screenshot for those of us with out Facebook accounts?

<comment><USER116> [https://snipboard.io/H1KQ2r.jpg](https://snipboard.io/H1KQ2r.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER117> Did they take this down? It just goes to my Facebook home page

</comment><comment><USER118> Can someone tell us non-Facebook users what this looks like?

<comment><USER119> From what I can gather (I'm in the same boat), it seems Facebook launched a portal for users to see what third-party services/activities they know about. One user here mentions an offline, in-store Macy's transaction appearing in that data; others mention streaming service data (Netflix, Hulu); one even mentions a reference to Blind, but not much detail on what type of data.

Surely, Facebook must be collecting this on non-users as well who obviously have not agreed to their terms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER120> 390 connected apps. And i never use facebook login

</comment><comment><USER65> Is there an equivalent Off-Facebook for Google?

<comment><USER121> There is, and it's equally creepy: [https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity](https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity)

<comment><USER65> This is only information related to Google services or approved third-party apps, no? I was hoping there was a service showing what apps communicated with my Goolge account without any explicit notification or permission.

<comment><USER20> Here's what Google says. Ask your lawyer if you want to know what it _means_.

[https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068?p=web_app_...](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/54068?p=web_app_activity)

When Web & App Activity is on, you can include additional activity like:

* Sites and apps that partner with Google to show ads

* Sites and apps that use Google services, including data that apps share with Google

* Your Chrome browsing history

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> s-skl fu __ing unbelievable that my photo to scan app on the phone is sending activity to Facebook!

</comment><comment><USER122> Also check [https://www.facebook.com/ads/preferences/?entry_product=info...](https://www.facebook.com/ads/preferences/?entry_product=information_about_you&section_id=interacted#interacted) to see who has uploaded lists including your email or phone number to to facebook. Wonder what GDPR say about uploading this type of lists

</comment><comment><USER123> So is there any way to find out what information FB has on you if you don't have an account?

</comment><comment><USER124> I don't understand.

It says I completed a registration for a company I never signed up to.

I did visit that company's restaurant that day, but I did not purchase anything.

Are some companies auto-registering you?</comment>


Ask YC: Why Did Your Company's 20th Employee Join? - <AUTHOR>

Peter Thiel is the first outside investor in Facebook, the guy who sold PayPal to eBay for billions, and a Founders Fund partner. He told today's Ice Ideas conference audience that there is one question he asks entrepreneur looking to begin a startup. He asks: Why will employee number 20 join your company?
Thiel says it's easy to figure out why someone wants to be a CEO or another very early employee in a startup; they'd like to run a company and get rich doing it.
He says its also easy to know why employee number 1,000 joins; the company is clearly on its way to growing into something huge, and will provide a nice, stable living.
Employee number 20, he says, will have to join for different reasons.
By then, the big equity stakes will have already been handed out.
Also, a company with only 19 employees won't have "made it" yet; it won't be a place someone looking for a stable income will join. So what's the right answer?
According to Thiel: for the only companies worth starting – perhaps the only companies he'd invest in – the right answer is that employee number 20 will join because you are doing something nobody else has done – "something fundamentally new, fundamentally different."
Via: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-important-question-peter-thiel-asks-any-startup-looking-for-money-2011-7 <comment><USER2> There is so much wrong with Thiel's logic it's not even worth commenting on. It's soundbite material, nothing more.

<comment><USER3> His point is that joining as the 20th employee is often an suboptimal position economically. There's a lot of stability in joining a thriving company that's not going to go bankrupt (e.g, Dropbox). There's a lot of financial upside in being an early employee at a company that becomes successful.

Joining as the 20th employee is what Thiel thinks is the worst risk-adjusted financial outcome for an employee -- so what other reasons are you creating for people to join you?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The best reason for being employee #20 is the chance to grow with the organization and take on a leadership role in a company early on so you can be sitting pretty when the company is a 1000 people (assuming you are competent enough to grow with the company). Small growing companies provide more vertical mobility than a 1000 person company (unless that 1000 person company is growing the same % YoY as the small company, but this is unlikely, since the % YoY growth typically slows as a company grows.)

</comment><comment><USER5> Well, I don't think question is dumb ...I don't agree with answer though.

</comment><comment><USER6> Because they find the quality of the work/environment/people attractive.

</comment><comment><USER7> Dumb question. Dumb answer.

<comment><USER8> Dumb responder.</comment></comment>