MacBook Pro with faster performance and new features for pros - <AUTHOR> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/07/apple-updates-macbook-pro-with-faster-performance-and-new-features-for-pros/ <comment><USER2> Biggest new feature they could add would be to not have an additional screen taking up battery life and shining in my face, unable to be dimmed with f.lux.

Maybe instead we could have a row of keys that provide some sort of function, and maybe a key that allows the user to escape. That would be a pretty useful feature that I can guarantee I would use dozens or hundreds of times a day.

I'm considering replacing my MacBook Pro soon, and I might have to drop macOS from my 3 OS lineup. I can't justify an expensive but locked down desktop machine, so if the laptops aren't meeting my needs either then goodbye Apple.

<comment><USER3> I know it's trendy to hate on the touchbar... but for what it's worth, I personally find it more useful than the old function keys.

Most mac apps don't use function keys as shortcuts, so the old keyboard ended up being used for media keys (volume, brightness, play/pause, etc.).

The touch bar gives me a better version of that (I actually get a volume _slider_ ), plus more apps actually make use of that space to provide useful shortcuts now. And the scrub bar for media playback is really great when you have audio playing in the background.

Yes, you lose tactile feedback. But battery life doesn't seem to be a big problem. At least for me, it's been net positive.

<comment><USER4> IMHO the touchbar requires more effort and distraction to control the brightness and volume. What previously was one key-press to dim/brighten or mute/volume - all without me having to take my focus from the screen now requires a multi-stages process with no tactile feedback.

No thanks. Plus the keyboard will likely have the same issues my 2016 version has. I've had keys replaced 4 times already.

<comment><USER5> Just to note because it is non-obvious and not documented - both volume and brightness buttons are one touch. You can just tap and drag up/down to immediately adjust, and you don't have to tap, move over to the slider, tap again, then drag.

<comment><USER6> Your tip only works for _decreasing_ the volume. If it's turned all the way down, and you want to turn it up, you can't tap-and-drag it because the fingerprint sensor gets in the way.

<comment><USER7> Try moving your finger left, then right, without letting go (video: [https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmVacED7iVnDn7JiHuUT7buAL96iSTzqHB7NTZR...](https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmVacED7iVnDn7JiHuUT7buAL96iSTzqHB7NTZRBxrAoDX)).

<comment><USER6> Oh hey, neat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, > but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one > thing. They have a softer, less click-y feel that is a little closer to the > pre-2016 models' chiclet keys. We found the new keyboard to be a little > nicer to type on, but it's not a radical difference. It's unlikely to > convert the detractors, but it's a welcome iteration for those who liked or > didn't mind the previous butterfly keyboards.

I'm going to wait a year, maybe 18 months for feedback before I consider upgrading. Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all.

I just don't get it.

<comment><USER9> They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value.

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.

<comment><USER10> In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?:

> Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new > MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and > test environments easier than before.

What we want is a functional keyboard. They are losing this market-share quickly but you're right maybe they don't care about this market anymore. They must not since they aren't doing anything about it.

<comment><USER11> The niche is not developers themselves; the niche is a (vocal) _sample_ of the developer community. I'm a developer and I like the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard with touchbar.

In particular:

 _What we want is a functional keyboard._

This is your opinion, but it's not necessarily the majority opinion. For example, _I_ would rather Apple focus on other parts of the computer than the keyboard. The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me, and I'm just as productive a developer without whatever platonic ideal of a keyboard Apple could put on the thing.

I think a lot of people vastly overestimate the number of Apple customers who have an opinion about this, because it's relatively easy to see complaints on HN, blogs or tech journalism.

<comment><USER12> > The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me

That's ridiculous. The keyboard is probably the most important feature for someone who codes. You're basically saying, "Whatever Apple sells I will buy, regardless of its qualities." That strikes me as a strange stance to take.

<comment><USER11> You act as though I said I wanted to use something outlandish as a keyboard, like a reprogrammed toaster. The MacBook Pro is a qwerty keyboard. It doesn't have the full function row or numpad, yes, but it's fundamentally a usable keyboard.

I'm not "basically saying whatever Apple sells I will buy", and to think that would indicate you have an unrealistically uncharitable interpretation of my comment. In fact, I explicitly stated elsewhere in this thread that screen real estate matters to me.

If you feel strongly about the keyboard, that's fine. But that's not intrinsic to your capacity as a developer, it's just your opinion about its suitability for your purpose. _Reasonable people can disagree over the importance of a keyboard._

<comment><USER13> There's a fundamental difference between a keyboard whose feel I might not like (travel distance, click feel) and a keyboard which has been reported to fail catastrophically from the smallest bits of dust.

If Apple decided to go for a chiclet, or other variety of keyboard, I probably wouldn't care. I'd deal with that. In this case, though, I pretty much have to expect (based on news and class action lawsuits) that it will stop working correctly, in a matter of months, in a way which directly impacts my productivity. I'll use one at work if I have to, but there's no way I'd buy one for home while the keyboard is that unreliable.

<comment><USER11> To be clear, I'm talking about the design of the thing here. There are two different conversations being had - one is about a dislike of the design, the other is about the hardware reliability of the thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's not possible to buy it without the TouchBar any more :(

I really wanted to like it, and the concept could perhaps eventually be good, but the current implementation is infuriatingly bad:

• I need more than one tap to change the brightness, volume or skip to the next song.

• The buttons are in different locations depending on context, so it's not possible to use it by muscle memory.

• TouchBar automatically goes to sleep, making the previous two points worse.

• It's not even that good for its intended purpose. Previews of things on it are too tiny. Most actions still require multiple taps, and it's in the uncanny valley between direct and indirect manipulation.

Fingerprint sensor is convenient, but the TouchBar ended up being a gimmick, not a pro feature.

<comment> J0-nas I wouldn't care about the touch bar if the esc+(sleep key) were still regular hardware keys. Those are the only ones that I actually use.

But an even bigger problem for me is the price increase. The base TB version costs 200€ more (or 400€ if you'd buy the nTB 128gb version). With ne nTB version not getting the update, the updated MBP is too expensive compared to non Apple machienes.

<comment><USER15> I believe the price increase is purely based on the profit-maximizing strategy. If people will pay that much then Apple has no reason to ask for less. Unfortunately, I can not imagine myself switching to a Windows-based laptop. This is just another example of why monopoly is bad.

<comment><USER16> I agree that this is profit maximization, but the only monopoly Apple has is on sucking less than others at particular things that particular niches care about (privacy, UX, ecosystem integration come to mind).

A non-Apple device will do all the same stuff. It just might not do it the exact way you like out of the box.

I pay the Apple tax (albeit exceedingly infrequently) because I can afford it & it reduces friction in my life, not because I have no other options.

<comment><USER15> Of course you are right, Apple is dominating the market, not behaving monopolistically in the negative sense of the word.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "... so many reports that it can be rendered inoperable by a grain of sand and that is incredibly difficult and expensive to repair or replace. This new third-generation keyboard wasn't designed to solve those issues, Apple says."

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17563640/apple-macbook- pr...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/12/17563640/apple-macbook-pro- touchbar-2018-intel-processor-siri-true-tone)

<comment><USER18> Just wait until you see Apples own instructions for removing the sand.

[https://support.apple.com/en-ca/ht205662](https://support.apple.com/en- ca/ht205662)

<comment><USER19> I don't see the problem? Holding at an angle and using compressed air is the most sensible way to dislodge a small foreign object from under a key.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm glad to see that Apple has finally updated its MacBook Pro line, but it's a little too late for me. After using Macs for nearly 12 years, I bought a Dell XPS 15 9570 a week after WWDC 2018 (I couldn't put off a new computer purchase any longer), and I couldn't be happier. It turns out that Windows 10 really shines on a computer with six processor cores, a 4K display, and a NVMe SSD, a dramatic improvement from the refurbished ThinkPad T430 I used with a spinning hard disk and a 1366x768 display. Windows 10 shines on top-of-the- line hardware, and I've found the experience to be quite competitive to macOS so far for my needs. Granted, I'm still getting used to the Windows ecosystem again after being away from it for 12 years, and there are still some aspects of Windows 10 that annoy me (namely the prevelance of ads), but other than that it's quite an improvement from my Windows XP days.

Anyway, I'm pleased that Apple updated its MacBook Pro lineup today, and I hope that Apple will start regularly updating its Macs again. Competition is very important in the personal computing marketplace. I'm glad that Windows 10 is working well for me, and I hope that Apple will still be a force in computing so that way Microsoft won't get lazy again like they did in the dark ages of Internet Explorer 6. I have a Mac Pro I still use regularly as a desktop at home, and so I still have one foot in the Mac ecosystem.

<comment><USER21> Echoing this sentiment, got a precision 5520 pre-loaded with Ubuntu and it's been a real champ. The build-quality is on-par with Apple and the fact that I still have HDMI/USB-A has been a life-saver a whole bunch of times.

There's one other thing that I like too; it's linux.

If I bought a macbook I'd definitely leave OSX on it, OSX is a decent system but the lack of decent window manager, the fact that I can't navigate with just a keyboard and the fact that I don't have the ability to mount linux-y/windows-y filesystems except fat is an annoyance too. But they're not annoying enough to make a good Mac Laptop a half-decent linux laptop.

<comment><USER22> I have found chunkwm to be an enjoyable window manager for macOS: [https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/](https://koekeishiya.github.io/chunkwm/)

<comment><USER23> When I was still on OSX, I loved Moom: [https://manytricks.com/moom/](https://manytricks.com/moom/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> After ongoing problems and repairs with my gen 2 butterfly, I switched to Linux (Ubuntu). After many months, I'm still a little shocked at how much worse the desktop experience is. 11 year old OS X Leopard is more consistent, intuitive and usable.

Hardware is slightly less polished, but no major complaints there (except for how poor the buying experience was).

Still, keyboard works. It would take something amazing to win me back (like a custom CPU that just completely redefines what we expect from battery life and performance)

<comment><USER25> It is all what you're used to. I switched from a Linux KDE desktop to a Mac 11 years ago. I ended up switching back to Linux & KDE after about 6 months of use, and giving the Mac to my inlaws.

What it came down to for me is that I've been using the same window manager shortcuts since the late 80s, and I can't make them work with OSX. Eg, I use focus-follows mouse, and some strange mouse-button + ALT key combos to move/raise/iconify windows. The loss of focus follows mouse is what really drove me nuts. I was forever deleting emails because I'd move my mouse to a terminal or emacs window and start typing, like I'd done for the last 20+ years, but without a click "random stuff" was happening in Mail, which was still getting the keystrokes.

<comment><USER24> "It is all what you're used to"

I don't think this is true.

Ubuntu is far less consistent with keyboard shortcuts and menu bars from app to app (OSX has this nailed). This is overwhelming my biggest problem. cmd+c, cmd+v for copy and paste across all apps. Not all apps minus terminal. Double click URL portion in firefox, entire url is highlighted, double click url part in other places, only that word/segment is highlight (I guess it's this 8 year old bug? [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=611162](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=611162))

Sublime sometimes opens with the menu shown, sometimes with it hidden (I've tried to script this, doesn't always work). Sometimes the window shows up minimized (scripting this catch 90% of the cases)

On quit, Firefox always restores the DDG and Amazon search options, but not the other ones. Why can't it remember this? (there are other cases of partial configuration amnesia for various apps)

"Ubuntu Software" doesn't list available updates for installed "Add-ons", you have to remove and and re-add when you know one exists. It also doesn't let you "search" installed even if you're on the installed tab.

When my I wake my screen up, there's a brief flash of my unlocked screen (someone could theoretically take a picture) before the lock screen comes up.

In OSX and android I just enter my carriers free wifi settings and it works. In Ubuntu, I'm given a bunch of detailed options, and I've yet to find the magical combination that works.

While on battery, the time remaining can be comically off when waking from sleep (23 hours, really?!). I've also had it say 10 minutes left when it shut down.

There are plenty of apps on extensions.gnome.org (available in "Ubuntu Software") that constantly crash gnome. Go through systemd logs, find which ones are causing the problem, try to fix or uninstall.

The list goes on and on. Correct battery time, configurations that stick, consistency from app to app are polish, not preferences.

<comment><USER26> > _This is overwhelming my biggest problem. cmd+c, cmd+v for copy and paste > across all apps. Not all apps minus terminal._

I really wish one of the major *ix toolkits/desktops would make some effort to attract or accommodate Mac refugees or dual OS users. I just wanna type Ctrl-W to erase a word and GUI-W to close a window — consistently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I have limited eyesight - good enough to work on a bright magnified computer screen. When I bought a new Macbook Pro I couldn't read the Touchbar and of course there's no tactile feedback. It's even worse that the keys can change with context. Due to my eyesight I also often tweak the screen brightness for best readability with the up/down function keys. The slider doesn't work well for incremental adjustments especially when you can't see it clearly.

I returned the Macbook within a week and had to buy a lower model with real function keys.

I tried configuring fixed locations for the most important keys but could not work without the tactile feedback of being centered on a given key. I guess there's some sort of voiceover but it would be annoying and slow. I didn't need voiceover before so why would I want to use it now to accommodate Apples latest gimmick?

Actually I wonder if it would work to add tactile feedback by 3D printing a thin overlay that adds frames around keys configured for fixed location. Or maybe someone could offer a product that is a Touchbar overlay made of clingy silicone?

Edit: Something else I wanted to add: I've tried switching to Windows (several times) but I can't work without Apple's Ctrl + two-finger up/down full screen magnification. Window's magnifier is a poor substitute because it's not full screen. The magnifier can be made the size of the screen but then it's clunky to move the focus of magnifier, and update is jittery. If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, please look at Apple's screen zoom and give your magnifier a mode like that - a full screen infinitely variable zoom that continually centers the focus on the mouse pointer.

<comment><USER28> I am also bad sighte, apple's zoom is very superior. Switched to Windows, Linux, and then back to mac for mainly the accessibilities features -- using an 8 year old macbook for your same reasons (big screen, no touchbar, please)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm looking forward to the very first "real development takes 64GB RAM, 32 just isn't enough" complaints.

Honestly, this looks like a good revision. I've been wanting a quad core 13 inch for a while.

Hopefully the keyboard revision helps with all of the issues people have had.

<comment><USER30> I did too, but the fact that they limit it to touchbar models means I'm out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Looking at the specs on the sales pages:

[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro/15-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch) [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro/13-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/13-inch)

It's interesting to me that they've widened the gap between the 13" and 15" \-- it looks like the 15 has been updated to use DDR4 while the 13 is still on LPDDR3. I get where they're coming from in that the 15 has notably more battery to work with, but it seems surprising that they'd widen that gap between devices.

At this point (assuming no issues with gen3-keyboard) I think a lot of people will find the 15" to be a great pro laptop and the 13" will still be rather disappointing to many. Here's hoping some reviewers do a meaningful comparison between the two.

<comment><USER32> Apple really doesn't seem to grok that small doesn't necessarily equal low-end in customers' minds. People want small laptops and small phones for reasons other than spending less money. They keep making this mistake with the iPhone SE too.

<comment><USER33> I'm not sure it's an issue with them not understanding, but rather straight up physics. It's an engineering marvel to get the components into the 15" as they do. Now try cramming that same tech into 77% of the space. There are going to be compromises. I would guess it's a similar story with the iPhone.

<comment><USER32> They could probably do it with the iPhone if they didn't insist on also making the phone inexpensive. After all, the SE is significantly thicker than the current generation phones.

And they could probably do the same with a variant of the 13" MBP if they were willing to sacrifice a bit of battery life or just go back to the thickness of the 2015 models.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I would pay a lot for a 15 of the current model that did NOT have a touch bar. Everything about the new MBPs I can deal with except that.

Also, the fact that they keep the higher spec-d models with the touch bar and if you want no touch bar you have to get low-spec-d 13s is downright hostile to consumer choice.

Please Apple, you're leaving money on the table here.

</comment><comment><USER35> As a developer the new keyboards have ruined macbooks for me - I find my macbook pro quite comfortable to type on for longer periods when I am away from my desk. I feel like the new keyboards are not practical for real use and it doesn't sound like the new models will greatly improve that which is a shame because I would love an upgrade.

I think those keyboards are great on the smaller more portable macbooks but I don't understand why the 'pro' models are favouring a couple of mm in size over a more practical keyboard designed for 'pro' use.

<comment><USER36> (I assume that you meant uncomfortable instead of comfortable based on context.)

Counterpoint: I'm also a developer, and I love the 2017 MBP keyboard. I'm of course disappointed to hear that they fail so regularly and that the repair process is so absurdly sledgehammery, but I think they feel amazing to type on and the recall replacement program satisfies my failure concerns.

<comment><USER37> Ditto, I work on one most of every day and the overall design is fine and works well for me. The occasional "double press" and having to blow out the keyboard with air, though, annoying. I hope the re-engineering on this new one resolves most of the issues.

<comment><USER38> "... so many reports that it can be rendered inoperable by a grain of sand and that is incredibly difficult and expensive to repair or replace. This new third-generation keyboard wasn't designed to solve those issues, Apple says."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> They need to take a page from "G4 Cube" and kill this entire product _design_ , not tweak it.

Touch Bar adds cost (both money and battery) for a net negative in functionality _and_ has no external-keyboard equivalent. Wrong design, take it out.

Machine is thin enough to cause unwanted trade-offs in capacity and performance. Wrong design, take it out.

"Improved" keyboard means waiting more years to see if it breaks, whereas "reverted 100% to 2013 keyboard" might have created instant customers. Flaky keyboard frought with risk? Wrong design, take it out.

There is nothing about this design that deserves risking spending so much money on it. They haven't truly fixed any of the requests (except maybe maximum RAM).

<comment><USER40> To play devils advocate...

\- I rebound caps lock to ESC, it is noticeably more comfortable to type on.

\- I use Touch ID loads, it makes having a long password much more practical for things like login/1Password.

\- I don't use the Touchbar much, but for volume/screen brightness it's ok. Net positive with the above.

\- I love typing on the keyboard, it's a significant improvement on the 2013 design for me, mine is fairly dusty, no issues. It also now has a 4 year (?) warranty.

\- My battery life is noticeably better than with my 2013 laptop (despite that laptop having a battery in excellent health).

\- It's fast, especially with the PCI-E SSD.

I really found very few trade-offs. It was maybe £150 more than I thought was a reasonable price, but that's < 10%.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> This seems like a pretty unusual/rare step of releasing an upgrade with just a press release; they clearly wanted to get this machine out before some part of the buying cycle rather than waiting for a press event. I know it's still just a spec bump, but it's different enough that it would normally appear at an event.

I don't need to rehash all of the 2015 vs touchbar arguments, the touchbar machine is "good enough" that I like it as my work machine. But as my 2011 Air home "kitchen table" machine (128gb ssd/4gb RAM) is getting infuriatingly slow, I realized I don't have to decide between a Macbook or a Macbook Pro to replace it. Suddenly buying a gently used 2015 Macbook Pro to replace it seems like a killer idea. Not quite as svelte as my work machine, and nowhere near as light as the air, but for a versatile home/travel machine, having the great keyboard, USB ports, and most importantly, CHEAPER than a brand new one, would really sell me.

<comment><USER42> It is not unusual or rare for Apple to announce (what they consider) mere spec bump releases via press release. Apple has a long history of doing this.

<comment><USER43> I don't even think the MacBook has had a keynote reveal since the first one right? Every update has been a small press gathering and press release.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I'm definitively buying this one. Upgraded RAM and processors. Good Graphic card. And 512Gb of SSD is plenty for my line of work.

Now to the issues:

\- The keyboard: I don't know. I say wait and see. I'll probably wait a few months to see if there are any bad news. Worst case scenario, I'll just take extra care.

\- Touchbar: Do not mind this one.

\- Battery life: I'm concerned that the top spec laptop will have poor battery life.

I think this macbook is good given that it is an update not a new re-design. I say wait and see.

<comment><USER19> I have ordered a 15" 2.6Ghz/32GB/1TB model, I am just hoping they have improved the keyboard reliability.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> If only they might restore the escape key in the 15 inch model...

<comment><USER46> Seriously, how do you exit vim insert mode without an ESC key?

<comment><USER47> I'm yet to see a serious VIM user who didn't remap ESC to caps lock yet. Regardless of keyboard configuration.

<comment><USER48> You must found one.

I used caps lock all the time for its intended function (shocking!), so remapping it is just not an option.

<comment><USER49> This is interesting - what are the typical use cases where you need to write more than 2-4 letters (e.g. "FBI" or "NASA" or something like that) in all caps ? It seems like quite unusual domain of writing - is it legal documents or something like that?

<comment><USER48> The hardware registers in our designs are all defined and used in upper case.

The file names in our code base have a lot of upper case in them as well.

But the real reason is tbat I learned speed typing in high school on an IBM Selectrix typewriter. I use CAPS LOCK even for FBI and NASA. It comes totally natural to me.

<comment><USER50> Also, if you ever use SQL with the all-caps convention for commands; my right pinky hurts thinking about using shift for all of this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I wonder why the marginal price of more SSD storage is positive, non linear

      +512GB | 0.78 / GB
      +1.5TB | 1.56 / GB
      +3.5TB | 1.79 / GB

Maybe the costs of getting denser chips is higher or maybe there's just enough consumer demand at those capacities to warrant the price.

</comment><comment><USER52> The keyboard and the touch bar are deal breakers for me. For the first time in a while I've been considering buying a new laptop, but the touch bar is basically zero utility and the keyboard is negative utility. I can't spend $2400+ on a laptop and feel good about it.

<comment><USER53> I can tell you from personal experience that the touch bar is more useful than the function keys it replaces. You will not miss them after a few weeks. They keyboard is solid too. I cringe if I have to type on the old pro keyboard with its soft keys.

<comment><USER54> > I cringe if I have to type on the old pro keyboard with its soft keys.

The soft keys are quiet while the new keyboard is noticeably louder.

<comment><USER55> True story: The other day I was in the living room and I hear this _crunch crunch crunch_ sound from the kitchen. I call over to my SO "what are you eating?" Her response was "I'm not eating, I'm typing." I use a 2013 MBP and she uses a 2017 MB.

<comment><USER54> I still dont understand how could anyone at Apple approve this change in loudness. Its not subjective, you can literally measure it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> The touch bar is an ergonomic nightmare.

Apple's soul truly died back in 2011 with the loss of Steve Jobs.

Their computers are now appropriate funeral attire. Lifeless, fragile and gaunt. The operating system, a pale reflection of the past, reminds me of disney movies and EA games these days -- forumlaic, unimaginative, designed to take your money. iTunes sucks the soul right out of you. It's Apple's laboratory and you're the experiment. Welcome to an homogenous, sterile prison of an operating system. You're no longer unique, nor empowered with an Apple computer. When the shallow keyboards make your fingers sore, when you need to replace the $600 display of your 12" macbook because you pinched the screen for the first time, you'll lose your love for Apple. Something like this will happen to you

<comment><USER57> > The touch bar is an ergonomic nightmare. > > Apple's soul truly died back in > 2011 with the loss of Steve Jobs.

Hilariously, the TB was in the works _way_ before Job's disappearance (according to a tweet by Bret Victor I can't find right now).

<comment><USER26> Long ago, Apple sold keyboards that are regarded as some of the best ever made (up with the IBM M, but quiet).

' _I asked [Jobs] if he would sign my Apple Extended Keyboard. He burst out: "This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It's a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No." And with his car keys he pried it right off. "How about this F2 key?" Off they all went. "I'm changing the world, one keyboard at a time," he concluded in a calmer voice._ ' — Steve Jurvetson at [https://web.archive.org/web/20111007191749/http://www.busine...](https://web.archive.org/web/20111007191749/http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/steve- jurvetson-on-steve-jobs-10062011.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Lol that main image showing the laptop with a USBC -> display dongle... at least they are being representative.

<comment><USER58> damn OP changing the link.. here's the original article linked, completed with the utter fail of marketing image

[https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples- new-2018-macb...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples- new-2018-macbook-pros-are-now-available-and-the-top-specs-are-much-faster/)

<comment><USER43> Like they said, Apple are being representative, and also what else could they do? There aren't any HDMI -> USB-C cables as far as I'm aware.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> I hear all the complaints about keyboard and touchbar, but we use these with external keyboards and never use the touchbar.

32GB DDR4 Ram and 6 Core processors honestly is making this a no-brainer here. We have been waiting on the ram for years. Price is the big question. At this time, the Select on the apple store is disabled so no idea what this will cost.

<comment><USER60> Why not just get an iMac if you're not going to use it as a laptop?

<comment><USER59> Identical desk setups at home and work. Carry it back and forth. Awesome setup actually.

<comment><USER29> What you really need is one of these fashionable carrying bags for the 27 inch iMac.

[https://www.amazon.com/Lavolta-Carrying-Case- Apple-27-inch/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Lavolta-Carrying-Case- Apple-27-inch/dp/B01DYHDQNI)

<comment><USER61> This is the first comment to make me laugh on Hacker News in quite a while.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> The most interesting thing here is that Apple previously did not ship 32gb ram in laptops because it was not available as a LPDDR3 single chip. Here you see the 15 inch models now use DDR4 (not LP - low power).

Basically Phil Schiller relented and said, meh, fuck it, lets give them what they want and put the more power hungry DDR4 in there. I wonder why the chip manufacturers couldn't make LPDDR4 or 32gb LPDDR3 modules after all this time.

<comment><USER63> Well, it's a limitation of Intel's processors. Either you use LPDDR3 which maxes out at 16GB or you go with DDR4, which is more power hungry, but allows more than 16GB.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> I don't mind about touchbar being there or not, just make escape key physical again :-(

It's not that hard, I mean, esc takes half the size of a regular key. Right below it in old Macbooks we have a full sized key just for ~` they could make the space of this full sized key contain instead two half sized keys.

The top would be esc, the bottom would be ~`. If you notice the Macbook already has this, for the up/down arrows. They are two half sized keys taking the footprint of a single full sized key.

<comment><USER65> You can remap caps lockto ESC iin System preferences / keyboard. Took me under thirty minutes to get used to.

The split key thing is an intriguing idea, but I don't think ESC is something you want to accidentally trigger.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> 32gb MAX ram is a nice change, and the true-tone display is a positive. Really wish Apple were in the nVidia camp instead of the ATI camp.

<comment><USER67> yeah... nice alternative for deep learning: [https://lambdal.com/raw- configurator?product=tensorbook](https://lambdal.com/raw- configurator?product=tensorbook)

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Apple have improved (and probably fixed) the keyboard and increased maximum RAM top 32GB for the 15-inch. These resolving two of the most common complaints seen here previously. Apple have also improved the display, added Siri, better system security and much faster CPUs. The leather sleeves are nice too - wildly expensive but lovely.

It's sad therefore to read so many complaints here - but I suspect many people have silently purchased one.

<comment><USER69> My previous job (80+ devs shop) provided laptops as primary machines, and we were free to choose size and mac or linux.

I knew 3 people who choose 15", and about 15~20 people choose linux. We were all devs working with a set of VMs.

Getting 32G only on the 15" puts most of us in a corner. The 4x4 matrix becomes two choices only:

\- 15" 32G mac \- 13" 32G linux

That's a really tough choice, I wish Apple just gave 32G to the 13".

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Doubling down on the Meme Bar. Yikes. Did they at least add some kind of haptic response for the new generation touch bar?

<comment><USER71> If they ever do decide to kill the touch bar, I'd expect it to occur along with a more significant rev where the whole design gets updated. This is more of an interim spec update -- not even announced at a keynote!

<comment><USER72> It's not that minor though, given they dropped LPDDR3 and switched to DDR4.

Oddly they still advertise 30 days standby.

<comment><USER73> Dropped LPDDR3 on the 15" model.

The new 13" models still have LPDDR3, and thus are limited to 16GB

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> I would advise folks to hold off on this. I've a base configuration iMac Pro. There is an issue with either the video card, T2 chip or some combination of the 2.(or maybe something entirely different) There is a kernel panic issue that has yet to be solved, even though there is a very long thread going on the apple support community. Ive been contacted by apple engineers based on my participation in the thread, so I believe they are on the verge of officially acknowledging a problem here. So far those affected have done everything from re-imaging, replacing and returning their iMac Pros and nothing has fixed this issue. I want to upgrade my macbook pro, but until they fix this, Im not buying any more macs...

</comment><comment><USER75> Not a MacBook user, but being in a US university campus for almost 5 years now there is one change that I noticed with the latest crop of Macbooks. Everyone seems to carry their chargers. 2-3 years ago really I don't remember any Mac user carrying a charger.

<comment><USER76> The new laptops have much worse battery life under load. I have the 13" non- touchbar (best battery life) and, with light work, I can get about 7 hours. However, if I'm doing anything CPU-intensive that goes down to 3 or 4. I think it's even worse with the dedicated GPUs.

<comment><USER75> I guess that unpredictable battery life is way worse than short battery life, in terms of battery anxiety.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> I just switched to Mac for work 2 months ago... Before that I was using a 2016 Razer Blade Stealth (which I loved)...

Touchbar is worse than useless for me because I am constantly accidentally grazing the esc key on the touch bar with my ring finger... infuriating. Keyboard is pretty bad also... I needed to take my macbook to the apple store (thunderbolt issue) and so I had to use a loaner for a week... I got the last macbook before the 2017 one... SO much better! First of all having a variety of ports is awesome... keyboard is awesome... Why did they just not add 2 thunderbolt ports and a 4k screen to that one (and upgrade CPU etc)?

</comment><comment><USER78> This hardware should have been here in the previous iteration. Also, I've yet to meet a single person who fancies the touch bar. It's now just something that's tolerated. Bring back the hard keys, shorten the oversized track pad, and add a shorter touch bar to the top if you really want to keep it.

</comment><comment><USER79> (All prices Canadian)

\- A $2400 entry price for a quad-core 13" Macbook Pro. \- Minimum $3675 spend for a Macbook with 32GB of memory (and still only comes with 256GB of storage). \- Non-touchbar Macbook Pro stagnating with 7th-gen dual-core at the same exact price.

Looks like I'll be holding on to my 2014 model like grim death.

</comment><comment><USER80> The 32GB RAM bump is huge. This will be the first MacBook that has greater than 16GB of RAM since 2012. That's a 6 year plateau where MacBook RAM was capped at 16GB.

Meanwhile that whole time RAM prices dropped and servers and desktops have been packed with more and more and more RAM. Not every workload needs that much but I have certainly hit limits when doing large heap dump analysis, local processing of large data sets, running many many local services to try to debug. I'm very happy with the change.

</comment><comment><USER81> Ports, dammit! I have a project of capturing old videos from VHS tapes -- via an ElGato EyeTV box WITH USB-3 OUTPUT -- and saving the captured videos onto an external 3GB hard drive WITH USB-3 I/O. I can plug these to the opposite sides of my 2013-era MBP and off we go, smooth as butter.

New MBP? Either buy an RGB video capture device with thunderbolt output (which I don't think exists) and a new enclosure for the HD, or interpose an extra dock thing.

<comment><USER63> Or you simply buy two USB-A-to-USB-C-Adapters for a few cents and put them permanently onto the ends of the cables. Makes the plugs a bit longer, but just works.

</comment></comment><comment><USER82> Finally we've up to data CPUs but now it's even more overpriced.

Guess Dell just won a new customer, the XPS line is really good in specs and price.

3.846,71 euros ~= 4500 USD for 4 Tb of SSD storage? Long live Hackintosh, macOs is good but the price isn't just there.

<comment><USER83> I'm with you but not because of price. It is still under $4K with a 1TB SSD, which is right in line with my other MPBs. I'd expect to spend about the same on the now inevitable Dell.

<comment><USER82> LOL

3.846,71 euros ~= is ONLY for the 4 Tb SSD.

If I buy the cheapest 15 inch and only upgrade the SSD I have to pay: 6.986,98 € ~= 8.200,00 USD

Prices in Europe are always higher than the states. On time I found out that I would save 100 euros If I took a flight to New York, stayed there for and maximum of 2 days to buy it :D

The prices are just INSANE, I built a Hackintosh for 800 euros and it is faster than the latest iMac 2017 with the maximum specs. Damn, I'm even using an Haswell CPU (i7 4790k) not the latest ones.

I get that Apple is making it's own hardware and it's good enough to rival top brands, example: Apple SSDs are in line with Samsung 970 Pro M.2 in terms of performance. Also the industrial design is second to none but it's just a terrible investment even for programmers.

With iPhone 8: same story, if you drop it and you're unlucky to break the screen and the back plate: It is cheaper to buy a new iPhone :D

<comment><USER83> Ah, yes: eight grand is a lot for a laptop. I can't imagine jumping through hoops for an OS I'll mostly experience as a browser and a command line, but if you're set on it I'd definitely hold out for a NYC trip in the Fall when the weather is nicer ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> The bump in specs is very much welcome, but I'm considerably irked by the continuation of USB-C only connectivity. I'm not joking with this. I would like, at least on the 15-inch model:

\- An HDMI port

\- Two mini-display ports

\- At least two standard USB 3 compatible ports

\- A mag-safe power connector to avoid damage to the machine, and the connector itself, if somebody (like me!) trips over the power cable

\- At least they haven't got rid of the headphone socket but I'd also like the line in back, please: makes recording on the fly much more convenient, which is something I need to do reasonably regularly

Overall these additions would make the machine much more convenient and versatile when travelling because it means I don't have to carry (and find space for) a bunch of dongles that will inevitably suffer periodic loss and replacement. I know this will make the machine cost more but I JUST DON'T CARE.

Seriously Apple, the clue is in the name: Macbook _Pro_. Please: wake up - stop building toys and start building tools! You used to be really good at this and I don't really understand why you chose to stop.

<comment><USER85> I definitely recommend you check out the Dell XPS 15. I just picked one up and it has plenty of ports, an excellent display, and it's super fast. As an added bonus, the one I got (core i9, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) was $1100 cheaper than the equivalent MacBook Pro.

<comment><USER19> I am using a 9570 also (same specs as yours) but have an annoying audio issue with crackling/static at random times. Also some coil whine. tbh I don't expect this on a £2000+ machine. I have already had one replacement and I have ordered a new MBP as I don't think I can deal with another replacement from Dell.

Have you had any issues with your 9570?

<comment><USER85> No issues whatsoever, except the fans get loud when I'm pushing it hard. I blame the i9. Other than that, no problems.

<comment><USER19> I am jealous tbh. I have isses with coil whine and audio interference (crackling/popping) in audio.

<comment><USER85> Update: I stuck my ear next to the keyboard and I do hear coil whine on it. I actually hadn't heard it before because the fans are usually pushing hard on it (I sit in the Adobe suite most of my day) and I also have it off to the side, on a stand, with an external keyboard/monitor/mouse.

I'm not sure if this is something that will bother me in the future. I am sensitive to sound and have misophonia, but I can't hear it unless I literally stick my ear on the keyboard. So this one is still TBD for me, though I appreciate your comment, as it made me check it out more closely.

I haven't noticed the audio issues, but there again, I have it using a USB DAC to a receiver with bookshelf speakers, so I really haven't used the speakers at all. And rarely would I--if I'm out and about with it, I have noise- cancelling headphones I take everywhere.

<comment><USER19> Well I hope it doesn't get to the point where it bothers you. I also have a hatred of some noises with coil whine being one of them.

In my on-going saga with this XPS 15 the space bar has now developed a wobble and is not picking up presses except directly in the centre of the spacebar.

I have had enough of this thing. I can't wait to return it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> Good to see improvements in the keyboard, surprising they didn't just go back to the pre 2015 version which has no issues at all though

<comment><USER32> They can't because the body is too shallow for it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> It has a new keyboard, which means Apple recognized the problem with the old keyboard months, maybe a the better part of a year before the recently announced new warranty on keyboard + body replacement, long enough to design a replacement.

That's a pretty shitty thing to do to keep denying the problem and collecting repair fees from their customers in the mean time.

</comment><comment><USER88> Ars said they didn't know the status of a 15-inch without Touch Bar. I take it we'll never see a 15-inch without it?

<comment><USER89> I wouldn't say never, but they haven't given up on it yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> I clicked on the link hoping that there would be an option with no emoji bar. Unfortunately this is another generation of disappointing MacBooks I will pass on.

</comment><comment><USER91> For all the talk about the keyboard and Touch Bar, isn't this the first MBP to offer 32gb of ram and an i9 processor? I can live with the keyboard, I don't care about the touch bar, but the ram and processor are the main reasons I've been holding out buying a new one.

</comment><comment><USER92> I really hope they don't retire 2015 models anytime soon. Those were the last usable MacBook Pros.

<comment><USER93> They did

<comment><USER60> I ended up buying a used mid-2012 model, hopefully the 16GB RAM upgrade I got makes it nice and snappy. Kicking myself for giving away my 2014 Air.

<comment><USER94> I was using a late 2011 that I had outfitted with 16GB of ram and a larger SSD, save for the screen, it performs comparatively to the latest models. Now, its graphics just went bad and Apple now considers it "vintage" and won't fix it. I assume the 2012 models will suffer form that fate soon as well.

<comment><USER60> Send it to Louis. Could just be the backlight.

[https://www.rossmanngroup.com/](https://www.rossmanngroup.com/)

One of the things I think and hope is going to start happening is an aftermarket parts economy springing up around these particular Macs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER95> I was waiting for this new update, hoping for a Pro Model without touchbar. Apple lost a customer in me now.

Time to look for new alternatives, the HUAWEI MateBook X Pro is something that I am excited to give a try. I just hope that the Linux support for it will become a bit better.

</comment><comment><USER96> But they waited so long to do this upgrade that a year from now I'm already going to start complaining that it doesn't have 64 GB of RAM. They're just catching up to what is an acceptable development machine at this point.

</comment><comment><USER97> Maybe I'm just not picky enough but as someone running whatever the current Macbook Pro is as my daily work driver, I haven't had any issues with the Esc key not being physical. I'd love to hear issues that users are having since I haven't really been exposed to the discussion around it.

On a side note, I agree the touchbar is useless on its own but BetterTouchTool + some python scripts has made it a neat feature for me. Personally, I use mine to display our on call roster from Pagerduty + the number of open incidents (if any)

Oh, I should mention I do use neovim somewhat lightly and it works alright.

USB C only can be a pain in the butt too

</comment><comment><USER98> The 32GB memory option is using DDR4 memory as opposed to LPDDR3 for the older models. That's because the current Intel core i CPUS don't support more than 16GB of LPDDR. How is that going to affect the battery life?

</comment><comment><USER99> At least there's some movement but this upgrade still falls far short of what I'm hoping for. The 13" model is still limited to 16 GB. And the model without touch bar only has 2 USB-C ports. Why, Apple, why?!

<comment><USER100> I was so sad to see that too! I'm still waiting on a 13" 32Gb macbook.

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> I really can't stand the keyboard. Been using it the last year and a half and it is definitely causing joint pain. I ended up buying an external keyboard to use with it most the time. Also, I want my escape key back. Not having tactile feedback is annoying and frustrating, especially given how much I'm in vim everyday. Just go back to the old keyboard please, you can even keep the touch bar if you must but I will not buy another until the keyboard is made useable and not just flat for no reason beyond making the computer slightly thinner, which is of no value to me.

</comment><comment><USER102> Sounds like another iteration of 'touchbar my way or the highway.'

</comment><comment><USER103> I'm disappointed: no USB ports that I can use (I don't have a single peripheral that plugs into USB-C and it's unlikely that any of my peripherals will be "updated"), useless touchbar instead of the function key row, the same "ultra-thin" form factor sacrificing battery life and keyboard for "thinness" (which I don't need), and keyboard which is still an unknown.

I wish Apple had serious competition. As in: competition that makes an integrated hardware/OS combination that is comparable to what Apple makes.

<comment><USER104> > I wish Apple had serious competition. As in: competition that makes an > integrated hardware/OS combination that is comparable to what Apple makes.

Microsoft and their Surface line comes to mind. I've read nothing but good things about the Surface Book 2.

</comment></comment><comment><USER105> What use is updating the specs if they're going to keep that god damn touchbar? Apple is sabotaging themselves and I can't feel sorry for them because at this point they're literally ignoring their customers.

Glad I sold my Macbook Pro. Not only is it exorbitantly overpriced, it's an inferior laptop due to entirely preventable idiotic design decisions. They had something fantastic with the 2015 model, but they've thrown it away for this atrocious touchbar and uncomfortable keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER106> Not recent, but last time I bought a new MacBook Pro, it was $1800. Now starting price is $2400. Is there similar inflation for other laptop manufacturers or it's just Apple?

<comment><USER107> It's not just laptops. You could get an entry-level Power Mac G4 in 2003, or Power Mac G5 in 2004, for $1499 (~$2000 in today's dollars). Today the Mac Pro starts at $2999.

The cost of entry to the Apple world has gone down, but the cost of entry to the Apple _pro_ world has gone up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> "Hey Siri" is available because a T2 chip is included.

We're slowly crawling towards Voice as a User Interface on the personal computer.

Hope this happens in my lifetime. I've been waiting several decades.

<comment><USER109> > We're slowly crawling towards Voice as a User Interface on the personal > computer.

> Hope this happens in my lifetime. I've been waiting several decades.

Can I ask why? I find voice interfaces basically useless. They're too awkward to use in public, too unreliable to use in general, and almost never quicker than just typing or mousing anyway.

I can see how it's great for accessibility (e.g. for blind people), but that's about it

<comment><USER108> "Too unreliable "

"Faster to type"

You're doing that thing where you take the current implementation that isn't very good and ignore that it will greatly improve.

For example, people say electric vehicles don't work for them because they only go 300 miles on a charge with today's battery technology.

Anyway, at some point, someone will get it right then you'll wonder how you lived without it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER110> My most recent personal laptop (after having been a MacBook user for a while) is a ThinkPad with ArchLinux. For a fraction of the price, I have a much more powerful laptop with a much better battery life. I no longer have to worry about things like the best _older_ version to buy to avoid things like only having 2 ports or the infamous TouchBar. Still calling these machines "MacBook Pros" is an insult.

<comment> focal-point Apple fanbois downvotin you

</comment></comment><comment><USER111> Will the non-touchbar MBPs continue to ship with the prior version of the keyboard?

I can see why Apple wouldn't go around trumpeting that the old models are getting upgraded, since it could dampen sales for the high-end models. At the same time, it would be pretty lousy to ship new units with keyboards that they've basically admitted are borderline defective (by offering a 4-year replacement program).

</comment><comment><USER112> So, let's bet; everyone will be having the same keyboard issues as the last two models.

I'm sad to see it's 'not a radical difference'.

</comment><comment><USER113> I own a touchbar MPB and the last model without one. I use both and I wish I could fuse the best elements of the two together. I would GLADLY trade a smaller touchpad for an extra row of keys on the keyboard. The touchbar would be a fine addition if it didn't replace the function keys. My biggest complaint by far is not having hardcoded volume buttons and an escape key.

</comment><comment><USER114> All the keyboard talk is kinda lost on me as I still hate typing on any laptop keyboard and drag one of these around with my laptop: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/)

It seems silly but I'm more worried about typing.

It might be something to consider for those with keyboard issues.

<comment><USER115> You are not alone. My laptop travels from work to home in my backpack and is immediately plugged into a dock connected to my Kinesis keyboard, mouse and monitor where I do all my serious work. I guess I mostly use my laptop like it's a desktop.

I think the touch bar is dumb, but I must admit I do like the fingerprint sensor, and it's cool I can use it to unlock 1Password now. The built-in keyboard is mostly fine for the light typing I do on it taking notes in a meeting or something.

<comment><USER114> Fingerprint sensors are one of those things I was all "naw I don't need that" until I got one ;)

I'm the same, in my bag basically a mini docking station with usb hub, keyboard and mouse travel with me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER116> If you fix the keyboard, I'll buy a new MBP. If you don't fix it, I won't. I have zero interest in any other changes.

<comment><USER117> Apparantly these have their new "3rd Generation" butterfly keyboard, whatever that means.

<comment><USER118> Presumably not the "costing us a bunch of money in Applecare repairs" version.

<comment><USER119> Yeah it almost feels like incentives are aligned, huh. I'm a big fan of the new keyboards, just not the being broken part.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER120> Looks like they incrementally improved the three biggest gripes about the last generation. You can now have up to 32GB RAM, the keyboard is better, and battery life is slightly better.

Apple seems to have a "tick-tock" release cadence these days, at least with laptops. If you want the best machine maybe wait for the "tock?"

<comment><USER121> Only the 15" can go to 32GB ram. The 13" cannot which is a bummer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER122> The first line of this press release should say:

"We have done a thorough review of the keyboard issues people have been experiencing and have made a series of significant improvements..."

That's literally all I care about. As I sit here typing on my MacBook Pro with a second keyboard sitting on top of the completely unusable built-in keyboard.

<comment><USER123> Most people who are considering buying this computer have never heard about any keyboard issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER124> Does anyone have any thoughts on this other than the keyboard?

I thought most people use their MacBook the same way I do — docked to a full size keyboard and big monitor 95% of the time.

So I don't really care much about the keyboard. I almost never use it.

What do you guys thing about the other upgrades? Would you get this assuming you didn't care about the keyboard?

<comment><USER125> Why not use a desktop w/ Linux then? Or a cloud machine? I do the same as you but I'm beginning wonder if a light MacBook & beefy Desktop is a better model.

</comment></comment><comment><USER126> I'm looking for a path forward, and I haven't found one; I'd appreciate anyone's insight.

My actual work could be done on a Chromebook, but in my free time I do a lot of music recording, which requires me to have an SD card reader and USB ports for the myriad synthesizers and interfaces I use.

I've been getting by on a 2012 MacBook Pro, but it won't hold up forever. I've looked at Hackintoshes, but none of them seem reliable. I'm used to UNIX, I like using UNIX, and I don't trust Microsoft (after realizing that messages I was sending over Skype to a Chinese friend were being sent back to the Chinese government without notifying me). Linux would work, except there's no usable digital audio workstation.

Am I screwed? Do I have to buy a $250 dock for each room I work in as well as a $3000 machine? Seriously, what should I do?

<comment><USER82> I've been using an Hackintosh for the last 14 months and I even sold my macbook pro. The performance per dollar is amazing, you can get 32 Gb of RAM when you want, a hexacore cpu, a Samsung 970 pro M.2, etc.

In the beginning i was a little bit anxious because I read that it is unstable but it's not true, it took me around 1 month to figure out the limitations and find my own setup. My next computer is going to be an Hackintosh, I keep a 13 inch macbook pro late 2013 with a mere intel i5 dual core and 8 gigs of RAM just to do light tasks and get out of the office.

For 800 euros I built an hackintosh faster than an iMac 2018 with the maximum specs, if you live in the states, computer parts are even cheaper than in Europe.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> So, who's actually buying it?

I'd like to upgrade my 2013 MBPro because the built-in camera has died and I could definitely use the speed bump in both CPU and GPU for my work.

But I'm wondering if there is a much more significant upgrade coming within 6-12 months, since Apple is not making a big deal of this upgrade?

<comment><USER128> I wouldn't expect anything new for about the next year. [https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro](https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Retina_MacBook_Pro)

<comment><USER127> ok. Bought :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER129> This release finally ends my relationship with Apple laptops. I was hoping for a more capable non-touchbar version with a fixed keyboard. I won't spend that much for a machine that has a feature I dislike. Time to move on for me. Also the price for a 32gb/1TB model is a bit much.

</comment><comment><USER130> Is this the only x86 laptop where disk encryption keys are not vulnerable to Spectre attacks, since they are on T2 Arm processor that doesn't support speculative execution? Or, if T2 does support speculative execution, it only runs trusted code?

<comment><USER131> OPAL-certified drives running in OPAL mode are not vulnerable to Spectre attacks, as the encryption happens on-disk and not in the OS or application processor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER132> So, they didn't seem to have fixed the horrible keyboard problems that all their newer model of laptops have.

Why would anyone spend this much money on a laptop, with 2 class actions in the going and Apple not even seriously acknowledging the problem?

</comment><comment><USER133> No 15 inch pre-touchbar model: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro/15-inch](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch)

<comment><USER92> No! Nooo God No! No! :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER134> They updated the keyboard (Yay!) but max RAM for the 13" models is still 16GB (Boo!)

[edited]

<comment><USER135> Did you... read the link... at all?

Right at the very top of the article:

> Now Featuring Up to 6-Core Processors and 32GB of Memory, True Tone Display > and the Apple T2 Chip

<comment><USER134> Ha! Sorry, I glossed over the 15" models, and looked at the 13" models, which are still stuck at 16GB.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER136> > The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, > but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one > thing. They have a softer, less click-y feel that is a little closer to the > pre-2016 models' chiclet keys. We found the new keyboard to be a little > nicer to type on, but it's not a radical difference. It's unlikely to > convert the detractors, but it's a welcome iteration for those who liked or > didn't mind the previous butterfly keyboards.

So, I guess this is the fix we've been waiting for huh?

</comment><comment><USER121> Really disappointing to see a 16GB RAM on 13" MBP continue to be the max.

HP and Lenovo have no problem offering 32 Gb in a similarly sized machine.

It seems Apple is more interested in forcing people up to the 15" for 32 GB - it might just be time to look at windows again for development / vm purposes. There is zero practicality in lugging around a 15" laptop compared to a 13" after having owned both.

While 32GB of ram makes sense for a 15" discrete GPU laptop, 16G will limit the number of vms or services that can run locally.

+1 for CPU updates

</comment><comment> non-nil The machines released today were obviously in the pipeline long before the most recent wave of Mac backlash, so it's probably a mistake to call them a response in any way.

Still, when Apple spec out their base configs like this, at these prices? I find it hard not to get the message.

The entire line is under-specced by about 50%, or $500 too expensive. Fix that, and I'd still mutter about the Touch Bar, but I'd do it carrying it out of the store. Now? I'll hold off upgrading for at least a few more years.

<comment><USER137> I agree with your first statement, but apple products have always been too expensive. Eventually you just learn to live with it.

<comment> non-nil Absolutely, and I have been happy to pay that premium. Still am for some product categories (iPad). But a mid-2018 laptop for $2400 that comes with 256GB of storage?

Given what a small piece of the pie Mac sales now represent, their company wide profit margins would be infinitesimally affected by equipping their flagship laptop with at least a 512 GB stick.

Bill it to marketing if it helps, but Jesus, throw us a fucking bone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER138> I have a 2015 15-inch MBP, 16gb RAM, 512gb SSD. I dropped it going through TSA and dented in the side. It still works. Case is bent, etc.

Last week I bought a 13-inch MBP, 16gb, 512gb, non-touchbar model.

With the upgrades to the 15-inch MBP and DDR4, True Tone display. I am seriously thinking about returning the new 13-inch and buying a new 15-inch. I waited 10 days for Apple to deliver the 13-inch and if I order today with 32gb RAM they are shipping July 23-25. Still another 10 day wait.

</comment><comment><USER139> __UPDATE: I over looked the spec part with their Intel chips... however I presume they tie directly into the T2 chip, and will probably leave them altogether in an iteration or two.

As I predicted in a former post on why they haven't updated their hardware line up... "using their T2 chip..."

This is them leaving their dependency and insecurity of Intel and AMD.

Good luck to them. I do remember a time when their ARM G series CPU's out performed x86 cpus on all things creative.

</comment><comment><USER140> This is so frustrating. I'm a longtime/loyal Apple customer, but they refuse to make any hardware lately I'm willing to buy. I don't want a laptop with a touchbar. They don't make any desktop computers: Their last Mac Pro was a disaster, the Mac Mini hasn't been updated in many years, and the iMac Pro is just a (powerful) laptop on a desk. I need to upgrade my home computer and I guess I'm switching to Linux?

<comment><USER123> The iMac Pro is absolutely nothing close to "a powerful laptop on a desk". You're fooling yourself with your narrative.

<comment><USER140> By laptop-on-a-desk I mean it's non-upgradeable with an integrated monitor. It's not a desktop machine.

<comment><USER141> It uses Xeon processors, AMD Vega GPUs, has incredibly fast PCIE NVMe SSD storage, and obviously contains a 27" 5k display...just because you can't take out the hard drive doesn't mean it's not a desktop machine. This is a weird statement to make. Companies using these machines are not interested in physically upgrading them...they use them as long as they can, then buy the newer, faster version.

<comment><USER140> What you're saying is: "I define 'desktop machine' different than you do, therefore you're wrong".

Give me that hardware in a box that I could upgrade, and don't make me buy a monitor I don't want or need, and I'd probably buy that machine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER142> I loathe the new keyboards, touchbar included, but I'm happy they're decoupling upgrading the internal specs from finishing the promised keyboard changes.

</comment><comment><USER93> Interested in trying out the new Black Magic eGPU. I freaking love Black Magic products and the price of this is very reasonable, like most of their products.

</comment><comment><USER143> 2 USB ports on the 13" version. Really? I don't get how this isn't the stupidest idea ever.

1 external monitor, and a charger.

A charger and USB ethernet card.

1 external monitor and USB ethernet card.

Pick one!

<comment><USER144> There are plenty of hubs with charging, ethernet and monitor built in. Of course more USB ports would be nice, but that probably comes with a price tag, as an extra Thunderbolt controller would have to be added.

</comment></comment><comment><USER145> This is great news for me personally as it means that I will never have to see anybody complain about how you can only get 16gb RAM in Apple laptops.

</comment><comment><USER146> 32GB RAM only for 15" :-(.

</comment><comment><USER147> Why is Apple's approach on introducing new things so punishing?

iPhone X - introduce Face ID AND remove Touch ID

Macbook - introduce Touch Bar AND remove physical function keys

I'm sure there are other examples but I don't follow Apple's hardware close enough to know. It doesn't have to be this way. In both cases above, both items could easily have been kept to maximize user choice AND maximize innovation at the same time.

<comment><USER43> Having both Face ID and Touch ID at the same time doesn't make sense and would just be confusing.

Having both the Touch Bar and a function key row makes even less sense. It's a replacement not an addition.

<comment><USER147> Confusing? Is having a pin code and a fingerprint reader confusing? You just pick the one you want to use.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER148> I like mechanical keyboards, and they pretty much all use regular USB. Last year my employer gave me a new Pro, so I bought some adapters to plug in my mech. Somehow I kept losing them. I've got multiple keyboards, other computers that don't need the adapters, and with all the shuffling around they just disappeared one after another.

New Pro looks nice but I don't think I want to do that again.

</comment><comment><USER149> >"With the option to add up to 32GB of memory on the 15-inch MacBook Pro, users can run more apps simultaneously or load larger files into memory."

So the 13 inch models are stuck with 16 Gigs. Is there a technical reason why they couldn't put 32 Gigs of RAM in the 13 inch model?

I feel like the 13 inch is the workhorse for most devs and by extension a significant portion of the 13 inc MBP user base no?

</comment><comment><USER150> Faster CPU and more memory while still running OSX? My only complaint is it doesn't come with a GPU upgrade.

I love the touchpad, the os, and the thunderbolt ports. The 10% of the time I have my computer undocked the keyboard doesn't bother me and interacting with the touchbar never was a problem. I'll buy one with the i9 and 2TB SSD within the next 72 hours to replace my 2016 MBP.

</comment><comment><USER151> As much as I agree with detractors comments here, this could be close enough. Use capslock for esc rather than ctrl and maybe someday the touch bar will have a use for me. The alternative of using Linux on another brand is fine too, so for me might just come down to configured pricing. The only minor downside is no Xcode for iOS apps. I tend to use flutter now anyway.

</comment><comment><USER152> Deciding between with/without touchbar. Is there a real difference between both? I'm really bad comparing hardware. Here the main difference I've notice:

Non-touchbar:

• Up to 2.5GHz dual-core Intel Core i7, with 64MB of eDRAM

• 2 USB-c ports

• Intel Iris Plus Graphics 640

With-touchbar:

• Up to 2.7GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 with 128MB of eDRAM

• Intel Iris Plus Graphics 655

• 4 USB-c ports

As a developer point of view, it looks like the non-touch bar is a good option, and there is not a big gap between both?

<comment><USER93> The non-touchbar model didn't get any updates, its the 2017 model with the 7th gen processors.

<comment><USER153> This. There is supposedly a large difference in performance between these CPU generations.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> It is telling that there is not a mention of this on the front page of Apple.com . So much for caring about the Mac!

<comment><USER154> Um, maybe it wasn't update when you looked but the entire homepage is dedicated to: The MacBook Pro, The iMac Pro, and Mojave in that order. There is no reference to iPhone/iPad anywhere other than the top nav bar.

<comment><USER42> It certainly looks very different now! I stand corrected!

<comment><USER154> Sorry, didn't mean to sound condescending. I re-read my comment and I'm sure it wasn't updated at the time you looked. My bad.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER155> I really hope there's going to be a 15' MacBook Pro without Touch Bar.

edit: clarify I was talking about the 15' model.

<comment><USER156> There wont't be one :(

<comment><USER155> Ars says: "We don't know the status of the 15-inch without the Touch Bar at the time of this writing." So I'm still holding out hope.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER157> So... still no USB-A or SD card port, still with the Touch Bar no one needs, even THINNER than before so likely the keyboard is shit, and the touchpad probably as oversized as on the current model. And I don't want to know the battery life of a 6-core CPU with so little space left for an actual battery.

Jeez, Apple.

</comment><comment><USER158> It's 2018 and we still can't get a decent video card in $3k-$4k+ Apple laptop? The new MBP will still be horrible at delivering a high-ish end gaming experience and I'll continue to be forced to perform all of my GPU-based machine/deep learning work on a separate machine (or eGPU).

</comment><comment><USER159> Related question: Anyone that has tried an eGPU for a MacBook Pro and care to share their experiences if it is worth it?

I am looking for something to make my workstation high performance for handling multiple monitors while I have the flexibility of just grabbing the computer and run into a meeting with it.

<comment><USER59> I run the mid 2016 15" with two dell 27" 4k monitors over thunderbolt 3. Also use the mbp monitor open so really 3 monitors. Use a dock that break them out to display port.

Works absolutely fantastic. Not a gamer, developer though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER160> I want a thicker laptop.

Apple is oblivious that Pros want _more_ functionality, not less. Editions that would frustrate their supply line but be incredible:

\- MBP Engineer: 32GB+ RAM, 2+ NVMe SSD, 10gbe, dedicated real A12 ARM chip for simulating iOS

\- MBP Scientist: 32GB+ RAM, an FPGA with fun Apple SDK, dedicated GPU

\- MBP Video: 4 SDI ports (integrated BMD DeckLink Duo 2), timecode BNC, dedicated GPU, 10gbe

\- MBP Audio: MADI and AES50 ports, 8 mini TRS inputs and outputs designed by Lynx or Apogee

Across board: fast SD card reader, HDMI even if mini.

Releasing even one of these sure would indicate that they're with the times. I'll admit to being an odd user though, my dream laptop would have a 16x PCIe slot exposed on one side.

aside: It's good to see Blackmagic Design get such a loud shout-out from Apple. Since dabbling in the live production world I've been consistently impressed by their FPGA and industrial design chops. possible acquisition? [https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HM8Y2VC/A/blackmagic- egpu](https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HM8Y2VC/A/blackmagic-egpu)

<comment><USER161> An edition with an Nvidia GPU would certainly be appreciated, even after years of Apple exclusively pushing AMD GPUs there's still a non-trivial amount of software that doesn't work on them.

There's been a mass-defection from Mac to Windows in the motion graphics industry just because they want/need Nvidia GPUs to run their preferred renderers.

<comment><USER160> Completely agree. Nvidia's typical performance is also way ahead of the GPUs Apple is integrating.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER162> Just having 32GB is enough to make me consider upgrading. But man, why can't they ship an LTE modem?

<comment><USER163> Maybe because they have a dispute with Qualcomm…?

<comment><USER162> Yes, I do think it must have something to do with that. There is no good technical reason why they would not have one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER164> I used to post rants about how I wanted a laptop that only focused about battery life, crispy graphics and Linux friendliness. Now I find myself wishing I could buy a laptop without CPU vulnerabilities. The hardware market is definitely at it's lowest point ever right now.

</comment><comment><USER165> Apple have surpassed themselves with wallet-gouging markup on SSD and RAM upgrades. £360 for an extra 16GB RAM (£160 retail) and £360 for an extra 500GB SSD (£95 retail). This locking down every component is big business. Nothing like hacking-off your pro customer base.

</comment><comment><USER166> I'm at the point where I still greatly prefer MacOS, but Windows hardware.

Unless things have changed dramatically, my 2017 MBP will be my last when it's time for a replacement. Hundreds of dollars in add-ons to make it functional and a terrible keyboard are too much to live with.

</comment><comment><USER128> This seems like an actual upgrade for users still on 2013/14 hardware. Going from dual core to quad core for the 13" users sounds like it might actually be time to upgrade. The benefits of the 15" sound very compelling compared to the 13" tho!

</comment><comment><USER167> Apple really dropped the ball. Wow. They must have been thinking, "Let's pretend XR, VR, AR don't exist and maybe we'll be able to extend our relevance with people who know nothing about computers." Otherwise, I can't even.

</comment><comment><USER168> I'm hesitant to get this because the touchpad looks huge compared to my 2014 MacBook Pro. I'm looking at where I rest my hands and I think I would be constantly touching on the touchpad while typing. Does anyone have this issue?

<comment><USER169> I was afraid of this as well, but in practice it has never been an issue for me. Apple did a really good job making it ignore your palms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER170> Notice no pictures of the horribly unreliable keyboard, useless touch bar, and ridiculously over-sized track pad in the marketing release.

I hope my personal MBP 2013 never dies... it's still a better machine than anything Apple has done since.

</comment><comment><USER171> It's 2018 and in the MacBook lineup, Apple is still selling laptops with:

\- 480p webcam (MB) \- NonRetina displays (MBA) \- Huge display bezels (all) \- inconsistent keyboards (MBA vs all others)

I guess it take "courage" to no longer innovate the Mac laptop line.

<comment><USER123> The $999 MBA is Apple's best selling computer. It would be ridiculous for them to discontinue it without another laptop at that price point to replace it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER172> I wish I could get the non-Touch Bar 13" with the maxed out processor and RAM

</comment><comment><USER173> Does anyone know if Apple has any policy in place for those customers who recently purchased a Macbook Pro without these new upgraded specs? Can they be turned in for these newer models with an upgrade fee of some kind?

<comment><USER135> You can return it within 14 days, no questions asked.

<comment><USER174> Is anyone aware of any upgrade options for a machine that's older but still quite new (end of Jan this year) - highest MBP spec at the time?

I did see one Apple trade-in programme, but it seems oriented towards much older models with a max trade-in value to match.

<comment><USER135> No there aren't any

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER175> Please give me back the escape key. I have a 2012 Macbook Pro it is very good.

<comment><USER53> If the 2012 MacBook is still good, then you should keep using it. When you're ready to upgrade, you will see that the new touch bar is just as good as the function keys, if not better. I used them every day.

<comment><USER175> I have a newer MacBook too (work issued) so I have some experience using the touchbar. Two things I dislike about it -- the cannot mindlessly adjust the volume, I have to use the slider. Also as aforementioned, pressing the touchbar esc key is unsatisfying. Makes escaping in vim feel perilous.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER176> I'm surprised there's only 2 top level comments on this article here.

The price point for an indie developer is quite steep. $1800 for a base level 2018 13" is the price to develop apps for the Apple ecosystem. iMac and Mac Mini are out because they're not portables. MacBook Air is pointless as it's so out of date.

At least throw in 16GB at that price point. Selling it with 8GB/256GB just hurts. I'm currently on a 2014 13" that I was able to pick up brand new for $1100 a month after release and I just can't convince myself that the new TouchID models are worth $700 more. The non-TouchID model will be around as a low priced Pro entry, but why would you want to buy last year's model with an even less performance gain (compared to the 2014 model)?

</comment><comment><USER177> Has anyone here bought or used the Thinkpad Retro? I'm curious about what people think who have used it for awhile. This iteration of the MBP still doesn't seem to be what I'm looking for.

</comment><comment><USER178> No refresh on the non touch bar model. I guess a new Macbook Air is coming.

</comment><comment><USER179> I thought this was a top post because they were removing the touch bar :(

</comment><comment><USER180> I was hoping for this refresh to have powerful not-touchbar models.

</comment><comment><USER181> Does anyone know when the store will update? Here in Germany it says on the sales page 8th generation Intel chips, and when I go to the sales page it is all still 7th generation.

</comment><comment><USER182> The price point just doesn't make sense any more. The 15 inch model starts out at $2800. You can get a much better machine, hardware wise, from competitors at the same price.

</comment><comment><USER183> All this power and whizbang stuff doesn't impress me... I got a $4,000 MBP for work and it's really full of itself...

Anyone else dying for a fresh mac book air? That's all I need!

</comment><comment><USER184> Too late, just got a refurbished 2015 model instead. Looks like a step in the right direction, but quite how Apple justify those prices for the hard drive upgrades is beyond me!

</comment><comment><USER185> What people on HN don't seem to understand is that developers are a tiny fraction of the professionals who use a MacBook Pro.

The "Pro" doesn't mean "developer."

</comment><comment><USER186> Meh, doesn't solve any of my current problems (eg. reverting the touch bar would be one fix). Had they offered a 17" version, I would have been all over it.

</comment><comment><USER187> Wonder why they wont put the xeon in there with ECC. Lenovo P50/P51 are still my choice.. 2x nvme, ECC, 4k color corrected, undeniably superior keyboard

<comment><USER188> Because 99.99% of laptop users have no need for ECC.

<comment><USER187> It doesn't really hurt anything, especially with Apple's purchasing power. The "pro" in there means something to a lot of people, if you are doing a live DJ set and your laptop crashes it can be catastrophic for instance. Rare, maybe, but yes studies confirm bit flips are real and at 32GB you are going to see them a few times a year. A DJ isn't going to necessarily know that adding $50 to the BOM and $100 to the purchase price is worthwhile, but a company like Apple is one of the few that can make good design decisions like this for their users.

Also the caches and data buses in the very same computer are all ECC protected. This is basically intel propagating ignorance, and Apple not stepping up. They whiffed on APFS and data checksums too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER189> What amazing timing! I'm expecting to receive a shiny new Dell XPS today, and switch back to Linux after ~8 years on a MacBook Pro running MacOS...

</comment><comment><USER190> The biggest performance boost I have had is going from an HD to an SSD. I don't think I need that much RAM anymore because of that.

</comment><comment><USER191> Of course what would be really cool is Face ID and the consequent minority report style gestures that would be possible... eventually!

</comment><comment><USER192> I wonder if the previous model keyboard repairs will get the third gen keyboard at some point (didn't see any info about this)?

</comment><comment><USER193> I wonder how's the battery life with an i9.

<comment><USER194> According to the article it's the same as 2017, thanks to a bigger battery.

<comment><USER195> Battery life with a 2017 model is horrible, especially if you are using anything that requires using the discrete graphics card.

Not expecting anything great from the new models on this front.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER196> For external 4K displays is it the same as before with the 13" supporting 2 at 60Hz with the 15" supporting 4 at 60hz?

</comment><comment><USER197> I am simply glad to see the T2 chip move into more lines as the promise of more secure storage appeals to me and likely others.

</comment><comment><USER198> The New 15inch maxed out ram and cpu + the blackmagic eGPU + the new ultrawide from LG at 5k2k and you have a perfect setup.

</comment><comment><USER199> With the amount of repairs needed on the keyboard it's unbelievablee they didn't even mention that issue.

 _written on my mbp_

<comment><USER200> Mention it in what way? They mention it is a new 3rd gen keyboard. They aren't going to mention anything negative in a marketing page.

</comment></comment><comment><USER201> Unless they release a video depicting how the new keyboard has improved, I see fewer people trusting Apple on this one.

</comment><comment><USER202> In the world outside of Macs how much would £2,699.00 get me and what would be worth getting? For development work.

<comment><USER203> Dell Precision 5530 looking like a killer machine at that price point.

<comment><USER204> It definitely looks like a nice machine and probably the best competitor to the 15" rMBP right now (alongside it's twin the XPS 9570) but do a search for all of the QC issues on the Precision 5510/5520/5530 and XPS 9550/9560/9570 and you will quickly see that there are a huge number of problems with this computer. That said, you can configure it with Dell's "Next Business Day" international onsite service (which is more like service in 2-3 days, at least based on my anecdotal experience) which is a nice touch.

I've spent a very long time researching 15" mobile workstations for the last year or two since I will eventually need a replacement to my 2015 15" rMBP and I have come to the conclusion that pretty much every one of them has some sort of huge deal breaker for me. At this point I'm just hoping that my 2015 15" rMBP can last for another couple of years while we await some design refreshes from Lenovo, Dell, and Apple.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER205> None of the pictures shows the "pro" keyboard.

I going to venture a guess why: lack of a real keyboard row for esc + function keys.

</comment><comment> brian-armstrong My predicition for the next MBP:

* No headphone port

* Entire keyboard replaced with a touch screen

* Comes with one thunderbolt port (standard), second port is +$800

</comment><comment><USER206> 6 cores!!! Third gen butterfly keyboard — not great but hey. 4tb ssd top cpu and 32GB ram is almost 7k though...

</comment><comment><USER207> What's a "pro", anyway? The category of people who use computers for work is a comprehensive one.

<comment><USER208> According to Apple, someone who can afford to spend $1300-$6000 on a laptop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER209> Any advice on getting my lemon 2017 (multiple faults) replaced with a new model rather than another 2017?

<comment><USER210> Apple will swap a device for the latest model if it fails and is repaired for the same reason 3 times . It's called "crewing" (or maybe "cruing"?) I don't know the spelling. You have to get it repaired by Apple 3 times though.

<comment><USER211> CRU-ing. Customer Replacement Unit.

There's no hard and fast 'three repairs' rule, but that's _generally_ the rule of thumb that employees stick by.

<comment><USER212> Has anyone gotten this done at a Authorized Repair partner or is this an Apple Store thing only? How about via mail-in to Apple?

Nearest Apple Store is 4 hours away...

<comment><USER211> Apple can definitely do this over the phone. I believe they will require a deposit to be held on a credit card though to cover the cost of the machine in case you don't send back your old one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER213> > Also new to MacBook Pro is the Apple T2 chip, first introduced in iMac Pro. > With the Apple T2 chip, MacBook Pro now delivers enhanced system security > with support for secure boot and on-the-fly encrypted storage, and also > brings "Hey Siri" to the Mac for the first time.

Boring security stuff, boring security stuff, oh, and Hey Siri Support! Now that is really what the world has waited for.

</comment><comment><USER214> And they will keep making the default HDD smaller so that you will subscribe to icloud for storage

</comment><comment><USER215> This is such a golden opportunity served to Google on a platter. Even MS realized that they can get more sales by putting linux (wsl) on windows, and yet chromeos which is linux had no aspirations other than showing ads on chrome. At least they are trying to change that with crostini. Hopefully, they'll have some sensible hardware options in the future.

</comment><comment><USER216> YES!...YES!...YES!..."MBP's with the touch bar" _close window_ Fuck that.

</comment><comment><USER217> The 13" model does not offer 32gb of RAM as an option.

I guess I'll have to continue waiting...

</comment><comment><USER218> The price says it all - totally not worth it. There are a lot better options available.

</comment><comment><USER219> Anyone here knows if we can upgrade existing post 2017 MacBook Pro's from 16gb to 32gb?

<comment><USER172> No

</comment></comment><comment><USER220> It'd be better if the OS wasn't garbage to be honest. Sierra and High Sierra, either through poor design or planned obsolescence has entirely soured my organization to the benefits of the MBP. Between that and the incessantly bad consumer garbage they push out with the OS, it's just not worth it.

</comment><comment><USER67> So much for holding out for a CUDA compatible GPU to do machine learning on...

<comment><USER221> Isn't CUDA Nvidia only? Apple and Nvidia are not in good terms, I believe.

<comment><USER67> Ya I was hoping they would come to an agreement ;(

<comment><USER163> Didn't you know about that time when Apple got screwed over by Nvidia when their chips failed? Had to provide out of warranty repairs for quite a few MBPs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER222> mehhh... 32GB of RAM might have been interesting in my laptop 5 years ago, but with cheap and nearly infinite VPS instances at the execution of a script, large amounts of local memory is hardly a requirement for developers anymore.

For creative professionals it will help; but as a software professional I see no reason to be interested in Macs anymore.

I'm sure the top tier model will push nearly $4000. frankly Apple lost me to Fedora/Gnome-Shell about 4 years ago with slow or no updates to their core software applications (Terminal.app... really?), less than impressive hardware when compared against Dells or Thinkpads, and a vertically integrated walled garden model that I just didn't want to be part of anymore.

But.... hey look, more clock cycles. Wooohooo, I guess

</comment><comment><USER83> Radeon, so still no CUDA.

</comment><comment><USER223> do y'all think, as a programmer as well as an adobe user (photoshop, lightroom, premiere pro, etc), that upgrading ram, storage, or processor on a 15" is best?

<comment><USER224> I'd upgrade RAM if you anticipate using such resource heavy applications. The processors are pretty close in speed, I would anticipate RAM being more helpful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER225> And still no ports, so you get to buy apple approved hub.

</comment><comment><USER226> I don't understand why they don't have the same CPU/RAM spec for both models. The 13" is the perfect size and it's not like they can't make it happen. dumb.

</comment><comment><USER227> Nice update but SSD 1TB to 2TB upgrade $700 ???

</comment><comment><USER228> Apparently I had twins in 2013, as I'm not giving up my 2013 MBP in the same way that I'm not giving up my son.

Can I please buy a 15" macbook without the touch bar? Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER229> hey Apple, this is how Hacker News' MacBook Pros pain looks like:

search "keyboard" on this page ... 166 entries right now

</comment><comment><USER230> The TouchBar models have much worse Linux compatibility. That's my make-or- break feature. :(

I won't be buying a MacBook that can't play audio through its speakers.

</comment><comment><USER231> Wake me up when it has control-alt-delete.

</comment><comment><USER232> I like the keyboard design but think it's also important to fix the reliability issues. Going back to the old design feels like the wrong thing to do.

</comment><comment><USER233> Let's call it the MacBook Pro Pro

</comment><comment><USER234> Am I the only one excited by the True Tone display?

I think my eyes are my main concern, and seeing Apple making a real push to preserve it is reassuring.

</comment><comment><USER235> Insane prices as always, bravo apple

</comment><comment><USER236> too late (waited a few years for a apple laptop with proper specs). Dell XPS sounds much better.

</comment><comment><USER237> We need a version without the touch bar. Please. We are begging it.

</comment><comment><USER238> all this talk about the specs and no mention whatsoever about ports. people. cpu speed has basically reached a plateau. its the least relevant thing to talk about.

<comment><USER72> It's an internals change, the case itself has not changed, what would be the point of mentioning that the connectivity is the exact same?

They also didn't mention RAM on the 13", because the 13" remains on LPDDR3 and thus there was no change to the possible configurations set.

<comment><USER238> ah ok, well thats disappointing. still, glad to see larger ssds. its taking a very long time (years and years) for their capacities to grow

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER239> Shoot. Isn't there a new model of 14"?

</comment><comment><USER240> > ever

</comment><comment><USER241> Ctrl+F keyboard

Good

</comment><comment><USER242> 3600 with 32GB ram and 1TB ssd.

I'd probably get one, but I don't use it for work and my 2013 is still trucking along just fine.

Actually I could probably get a decent chunk of money for it and then use that to help finance a new one. hmmm

I'll wait and see if the keyboards are still crap.

</comment><comment><USER243> Those bezels look real ugly compared to Huawei Matebook X Pro and other innovative companies like Dell.

I guess it comes down to if developers keep wanting MacOS. New MacBook is faster and supports 32 gb of memory if you want to pay astronomical sums of money.

</comment><comment><USER244> Pros need an escape key.

<comment><USER245> I was with you until I remapped caps lock to esc. It's really an enhanced, bigger, easier access esc key now. And I don't miss caps lock.

</comment></comment><comment><USER246> x86 has been obsolete since it was born, and putting the silicone under the keyboard today is absurd. The portable workstation is not the machine that should be doing the hard work (builds/tests). They have it wrong almost the whole way, except maybe for a nice screen.

</comment><comment><USER247> Wait, 6 cores is a 70% speedup but 4 cores is a 2x speedup? What?

</comment><comment><USER248> Every time Apple releases a new product, these comments are the same. "blah blah, apple sucks, I am totally thinking about switching to the Microsoft <insert latest failed product here> and let me tell you all about it". This year it is the "WSL totally makes development easy on windows now" garbage.

The fact is that the competitors are garbage. Dell makes crappy, low quality computers, windows has the design of a sleezy casino, and programming on windows is still a massive compromise. The same with Android. Samsung s9+, note 8, etc are not even remotely competitive with the iPhone. Android and Windows serve different markets and every attempt to break in the high-end market since the history of time have failed.

Personally, I think that macbook's are kind of old fashioned. When I went into the Apple store a few months ago, the iPad Pro seemed like a much better mobile computer. The fact is that you don't spend all day on a laptop. If you do, then you need to go see a physiotherapist and start your treatment now. Whether the keyboard is perfect or not really isn't that important. Nothing about a laptop is anywhere near perfect. The processor is lower powered, the screen is smaller, the ergonomics are terrible, etc.

It makes much more sense for a lot of these tech companies to start issuing iMacs and macbooks or iMacs and ipad pros. That is what Apple themselves seem to do, and the majority of the people I know who work from home do. You can't even buy a screen as good as the one in the iMac 5k for the same price separately. Text looks much better on a retina screen, you get much more power, more storage, etc.

People say "well you have to sync between work and home". These people must be an extreme minority because how many people work at home one day, work at work the next and keep rotating like that so that syncing becomes an actual problem? Further, you can just ssh into your own machine.

Anyway, that is what I think. Everyone seems to be moving to iMacs instead of laptop + external screen. You get more power, no need to charge as much, a retina screen, and it is all at a very very competitive price.

</comment><comment> Sean-P Yet Apple leaves severe bugs in their terminal, which causes every open terminal to crash, unfixed for years after the bug has been reported. Yet Apple requires 3rd party applications for basic window management: [http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/](http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/), [https://manytricks.com/witch/](https://manytricks.com/witch/). Yet Apple presents a macOS API so crippled, that sending a window to the back isn't even directly possible: [https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/233687/how-can- i-s...](https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/233687/how-can-i-send-the- currently-active-window-to-the-back).

<comment><USER249> I've used Terminal almost every day for the past 10 years and it's not crashed even one time. I can understand why sending a screen to the back wouldn't be a part of the API for security reasons alone. I think you're digging at some pretty niche edge cases.

</comment></comment><comment><USER250> Still has a Touch Bar? With no option to get rid of that unwanted nuisance and gimmick? Does nobody at Apple use an ESCAPE key or function keys?

Pass.

</comment><comment><USER251> But did they fix the keyboard? I have a new MB Pro for work and two weeks of using the flat keys actually gave me horrible wrist pain. Now I use an external keyboard.

I use a 2015 MacBook Air at home that I can type on for hours without any wrist pain.

<comment><USER252> The keyboard still has the same design. It's just a third revision of the same basic flat design. They are not going to be making a completely different keyboard design unless they change the design of the computer itself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER253> Apple's failure to retire the novelty keyboard has entirely vindicated my decision 2 weeks ago to replace my 2013 MB Pro with a Dell XPS 15. The transition to Windows has been moderately painful, but Apple now doesn't offer any laptop hardware that even makes it onto my longlist.

Were I to consider their silly current line, an equivalent MBP to my fully- spec'd XPS (6 core 2.9+, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) would cost a ludicrous AUD$5860, compared to the $3500 I paid. My new machine has ports, a real keyboard, is very speedy, and has all the software availability one could wish for.

Macs are needed to develop for iOS and macOS, but other than that, in 2018, they seem like a pointless corporate affectation, a kind of high-priced technological suit & tie.

</comment><comment><USER254> Still only 16GB of memory. Keyboard, this and lack of ports means I'm going to switch to a Thinkpad T480s for at least a year.

<comment><USER32> 32 GB available on the 15" touchbar model.

Personally holding out for a 32GB 13", if my 2012 makes it that long.

<comment><USER254> Do you have a link? Haven't spotted that yet.

<comment><USER255> You can upgrade to 32 on the 15" models: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy- mac/macbook-pro?product=MR932...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MR932LL/A&step=config#)

<comment><USER254> Thanks!</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>