I'm a Coastal Elite from the Midwest: The Real Bubble Is Rural America - <AUTHOR> http://www.rollcall.com/im-a-coastal-elite-from-the-midwest-the-real-bubble-is-rural-america <comment><USER2> We have read this piece 1000 times before.

And for the 1000th time, it is necessary to say, "rural America understands that they are not your priority".

The modern left finds it more virtuous to hire a wealthy black man or a wealthy white woman than to hire a poor white man. Rural America knows.

In fact, and more people are coming to terms with the modern left's perverse priorities. Indian people? Indian people don't even exist to these costal elites. Indians are dramatically underrepresented in popular culture, but the left only cares about replacing white people in popular culture with black people.

People like Mr. Thornton would never dare demand that we replace black people with Indian people where black people are overrepresented.

You can keep lecturing poor white people about how backward and toothless and spoiled they are, while never daring to say a negative word about black people. You can keep telling poor white people to stop being tribal, while fomenting tribalism in every other group (except Indians). You can keep claiming to care about representation, while ignoring everyone but the groups that earn them the most virtue points.

My Thornton, everyone is wising up to your priorities and the priorities of those in your wealthy costal social circles.

Yeah, I'm bitter.

<comment><USER3> Reading this comment is a perfect synopsis for this election. The article is about rural america and a bubble and lack of understanding between the 2 circles. Your comment focuses on the virtues of hiring someone black or a white women versus a poor white man. It's an axe to grind about the left rather than anything related to the article. Why is this guy hiring anyone? What does that have to do with anything? When is a wealthy black man or white woman up for the same job as poor white male? What does that comment have to do with anything? Give me one tangible example how your setup happens in the real world.

It's all imagined and fantasy, like somehow liberals have set the world up that this poor white guy from rural America is getting screwed to hire a wealthy black guy or wealthy white woman. Let me guess, Obama is the wealthy black man, Hillary is the wealthy white woman, and Donald Trump is somehow the standin for rural poor white guys everywhere.

And what is with the comments about Indians? Are we talking Indians from India or Native Americans. Who is demanding we replace black people with indian people. Where are they over represented? What the hell are you talking about? It doesn't make any sense, the same way Trump made no sense during the debates.

You really read 1000 articles? Post them 5 of them, let's see them.

You could have spent some time talking about Nafta or free trade or automation or god knows what and made some sense of this election. Michael Moore had a clip about how the free trade and nafta and rural america is hurting and predicted that Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio and Pennsylvania would go for Trump. It's incredible and relevant.

But you didn't. You spent all your time railing against race issues and coastal social elites. And in your effort to rail against those wealthy coastal social elites you elected someone who was wealthy and lived in coastal city.

I'm getting tired of the navel gazing over the post election analysis. I have a family member who voted for Trump because they can't wait till he sends Muslim out of the country and sends Mexicans back to Mexico and builds a wall. Trump said terrible things and people voted for him because he said those terrible things. In all the analysis I've read, not one person has said that.

Here's the Michael Moore clip for the record.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EekI4rBg9_U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EekI4rBg9_U)

<comment><USER4> > Trump said terrible things and people voted for him because he said those > terrible things.

I understand your frustration (I'm right there with you. I felt like a family member died after the election), but I think the statement I quoted is an exaggeration.

Trump had a few groups of people that helped him win the election. I'd break them into these groups:

* Traditional republican voters who didn't like much of what Trump said, but worried about liberal Supreme Court justices.

* White supremacists. Most Trump supporters weren't white supremacists, but most white supremacists were Trump supporters.

* People who feel that Washington is deeply corrupt and want to see the existing system torn down. Trump has pledged to introduce term limits for congress people, along with banning certain government employees from becoming lobbyists for a period of time.

* Working class people who liked Trump's trade policies. He's pledged to renegotiate certain trade deals in an attempt to lessen our trade deficit. That would make it less appealing to outsource jobs, which union workers found appealing.

I voted for Hillary, but I admit that I like his anti-corruption and trade deficit policies. Unfortunately I'm horrified by his policies on muslims, undocumented immigrants, etc.

Quite simply, people who think like you and me lost on Tuesday. We lost badly. We need to take some time to figure out where to go from here, because if we run the next election like this one, we will probably lose again.

We spent a lot of time being upset about the white supremacists who backed Trump. We didn't spend enough time addressing the concerns of union workers, anti-corruption advocates, and republicans who didn't like Trump. It probably cost us the election.

<comment><USER5> > I think the statement I quoted is an exaggeration.

But none of your points explain why. Trump said _terrible_ things, that he would commit war crimes, restrict the first amendment, he won't respect the election if he loses. He's praised dictators, denied climate change, committed charity fraud, stiffed 800+ small businesses, walks in on underage girls changing and brags about it. He _lies_ about something one day and deflects attention away to blame someone else when called out on it.

It's fascinating that he gets a pass on saying and doing these things. "It's an exaggeration." Personally, I think it's because he was a reality TV star. We _expect_ celebrities to say and do ridiculous things, and then roll our eyes at it.

Except he's president now, and he isn't acting.

<comment><USER6> > ... he won't respect the election if he loses.

You mean like all the people protesting against Trump?

<comment><USER7> Don't be obtuse. College students painting banners is a far cry from a presidential candidate refusing to concede an election over imagined vote fraud. And there is a strong chance that's what Trump would have done.

<comment><USER6> Concede? Like how Al Gore conceded? Yes, perhaps Trump would have challenged the results.

However, that won't be necessary, as Trump can now honestly attest that the elections aren't rigged.

<comment><USER8> I'm not sure if we can make that assertion, given the Deep State is safely ensconced regardless of which figurehead is offered up for our worship and ridicule. How does the old chestnut go, something about how if voting made a difference they wouldn't let us...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Ex-midwesterner, different coast. I did not enjoy growing up in the midwest.

I had a similar experience growing up: completely white town, minorities counted on one hand, zero african-americans. Not a single gay person to be found. Not until I attended college did I meet an african-american, or any non-native english speaker. Muslim? What's that? I was raised to believe african-americans, gays, and communists are bad, evil, flawed, un-welcome.

In junior high school, a friend invited me to attend a church social event near a river one night. Some of the guys put together a big, makeshift cross out of lumber they brought with them and planted it in the ground. We had a small bonfire going, and then they lit the cross. Several of the guys in the church put their Sunday robes on...then they pulled hoods over their faces. Yeah, KKK.

I knew a policeman who drove drunk all the time. I knew a teacher who bought high school students liquor many times. I knew a peer in high school sleeping with that teacher. I knew girls pregnant by 11th grade. I knew domestic violence that happened in my house, in my friends' homes, and in the homes of people I barely knew. In a small town, most of my friends and I experienced separated families through divorce.

My experience could be unique, or it could be quite common. At any rate, by the time I finished college, I needed to leave.

The midwest isn't all bad, but I saw some of the worst it has to offer.

<comment><USER10> What year was this? I grew up in a midwest town and when I was young, and there were no black residents, but by the time I left there was. There certainly were other minority racial groups as well as gays as lesbians.

<comment><USER11> I am also a former small town Midwesterner. In the 90s, A gay couple moved in a house on the same block where I lived. Even though my parents told me to stay away (like they did with all people we didn't know, even in our "demo"), I don't think it mattered much because we eventually started mowing their lawn. In a mid-size elementary school, I remember a chinese and a black (maybe mixed) family. Another mixed family moved in next door around 2002 (black part was Jamaican). I didn't have a problem with any of them, and neither did anyone else that I knew. By the time I left for college, there were plenty of Mexicans.

My dad worked in a prison, which meant he spent his day around thieves, drug addicts, gangsters, murderers, sexual predators, and the like. He gave fear of those kinds of people to the family, and suspected _everyone_ of being one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I've lived in both places and each one absolutely has it's bubble. But to say that rural America is a special case is wrong. I've met prolific travelers who have gone up and down each coast but who would never think of visiting the interior--something they are quite proud of. "Real America" is frequently the butt of jokes, and the people there are caricatured or casually dismissed as less important.

This is all really unfortunate. US politics won't evolve past a tug-of-war if the sides don't attempt to sincerely understand each other (and that is almost never the case). The worst part of this election for me was seeing how each side would immediately jump to the least generous interpretation of an ambiguous or unclear statement made by the other. Since language is rife with ambiguity, that virtually guarantees you see your opponent as consistently wrong, stupid, and evil. If that's what people want to see, that's what they'll see no matter the words. Bubble vision.

<comment><USER13> This mutual ignorance is greatly assisted by 'traitors' like the one who wrote this article. He trashes his kith and kin because it increases his status with the low information coastal bigots.

He could promote mutual understanding but he chose not to do so.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The real bubble is the press. Their unsustainable model of patting themselves on the back and getting in bed with the politicians they're supposed to be shedding light on has them in a downward spiral. Case in point: the front page of the NY Times the day after the election.

The false narrative in tfa is another example of denial. How could Trump win unless everyone in the midwest is a racist homophobe?

The fact is, Hillary was such a poor candidate that even Trump was able to defeat her. Just accept it and move on. Accusing people in the midwest of being racists just makes you look like a fool. Take some constructive action like making sure the Democrat party has a less corrupt nominating process.

<comment><USER15> Hillary wasn't a poor candidate by herself, but because of a decades long slander campaign against her. The Democrats clearly underestimated how much people were willing to believe the baseless attacks against her. Nominating her was a display of unjustified trust in the voters' ability and willingness to see through the lies.

That too is part of the bubble. Or the two bubbles, perhaps. Completely different views of what reality is like. In one reality, Hillary is a crook, global warming a hoax, liberals evil, racism not an issue, and Trump a great business man and family man without any scandals. In the other bubble, it's the other way around.

<comment><USER16> Hillary was a poor candidate because she was a neo-liberal who had nothing to offer to the midwestern working class, and quite frankly took them for granted (she visited Wisconsin exactly zero times during the election, apparently she was too busy visiting The Hamptons and Martha's Vineyard).

It's funny that people are raging at the midwest because it's been, for the past few decades, quite blue. Hillary just assumed that they were With Her (even though she clearly wasn't With Them) and now they are at fault for not giving her the votes she felt she was owed.

<comment><USER17> Trump also has nothing to offer the rural midwest. The difference was that he pretended that he had.

Even if manufacturing and coal mining where to increase ten fold, there would be no new jobs for people without a long education, due to automation.

<comment><USER18> Trump understands their fears. He told the Detroit Auto Club that he was going to put a 35% tax on cars from Mexico if Ford moved its plant there. He talked about other manufacturing jobs being outsourced. Doesn't even matter if he can do anything about it but the fact he said it--while Hillary didn't--meant all the difference in the world.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> "They had not seen the Apollo moon lander, nor George Washington's Revolutionary War uniform. And they certainly have not seen the new National Museum of African American History and Culture."

This quote really hit home for me. I spent part of my childhood in rural Texas as a new immigrant to this country. My parents were poor, although not as poor as some around us, and what they lacked in money they more than made up for in love. For this I will be forever grateful.

I had a friend who would frequently have to come over for dinner because her mother was too strung out to pick up groceries. I had another friend who never owned a pair of shoes that fit properly until he enlisted in the Army.

I'm pretty certain both of my friends would have loved to see the Apollo capsule and the assorted museums in DC. They were however, a bit preoccupied in trying to get enough calories throughout the day to maintain a healthy weight.

It's been a while since I read something on the web that made me cry, the condescension displayed in this article has succeeded.

<comment><USER20> I think it's important to view this piece in the context of the recent election, where the median Trump supporter had a higher income than the median Clinton supporter.

Yes, rural poverty is a thing and we should provide compassion and assistance to everyone trying to escape it. But that's not the family described in the article (who clearly did have the resources to visit DC), and it's not what swung the election. Trump got the votes of a huge number of middle-class, older white people, who have had many opportunities to venture out of their bubbles, to get to know their country better, to reach out to immigrants and the vulnerable in their own communities, and have just never bothered.

We should hold ourselves to a higher standard, and work to empathize with the "cultural anxieties" driving rural Trump voters, just as they have never worked to understand the anxieties of their coastal/urban counterparts, let alone those of blacks, Muslims, and other persecuted minorities. But we shouldn't idolize them as "real America". They are a part of it, yes, but the real America is a much bigger, more diverse and welcoming place.

<comment><USER21> I agree with this, mostly. I feel that Trump's campaign has already damaged the country in a very profound way that will take years for us to recover from as a people. But, I don't see Trump suddenly being the adult in the room given how he ran his campaign. At the very least, the tone has made people talking to each other very difficult.

I know people keep turning to hard data to try to explain the election. I think that's generally the right way to look at it. However, I think we all know people who have supported Trump. I feel like we should be sharing what they're thinking respectfully, even though it's feels more than likely many of his supporters would not reciprocate, however true or not true that may be. More viewpoints is better after all, right? They perceive us as aloof and disconnected from their problems. So, what do we do?

I don't want another election like this more than anyone else does, but it will happen again if something doesn't change. I have little faith in the protests ability to change people's minds. The people they need to talk to likely have never even been to the streets they're protesting on. All they're going to hear is that the protests in Oregon were deemed a riot and dispersed, and that will be that.

Within my family, not all voted for Trump, but most did and they come from different economic strata. So, I've seen multiple viewpoints on this. I think in order for me to understand the elections, I've made a separation between: 1.) economics, and 2.) race & culture. The people I know that voted for Trump might have responded to the dog whistling (can it really be called that when it's so unsubtle?). But, in their minds it's about 1. and not 2. I think when it comes to changing hearts, the only thing that matters is how you feel, so it's important to make that distinction. They don't see themselves as fomenting racial anxiety, even though the United States is inevitably becoming a more diverse place. They only care about the economy, and Trump made a point of opposing trade pacts that have hollowed away their traditional place in American society.

At home and at work, I feel like I occupy two totally different worlds that don't interact with each other at all. I come to work, and it's nice. It's a diverse workplace, people are kind, we're making money. It's nice. Then I go home and it's like 2008 is rumbling on. It really does feel to me like people don't humanize people they disagree with anymore because they filter their world through cable news & the internet. Maybe changing that might help change this?

But how do we do talk to them? To them it sounds like we're waiting for them to die off, which is profoundly insulting to them but also not true of us, or at least not of me. We aren't waiting for them to die off. To me, or us, it sounds like they're trying to turn back the clock on the progress we've made for a lot of people who have endured a lot of hurt. But to them, they're trying desperately to preserve a way of life. But the world is just changing around them. We're all uncertain about where we're going to from here.

So how do we talk to them about it? How do we make them not feel threatened? I'm really at a loss. I think it's hard for the left (or at least me) to appreciate how divergent our understanding of what constitutes racist/sexist behavior is from theirs too. What's unacceptable behavior to me is locker room talk or just crude humor to them. It's hard for me to not lose my temper about it. I'm not sure how to shrink the empathy gap between the two sides, but I don't see these conversations taking place, so somebody has to start, right? But how do we do it?

I know this is a difficult pill to swallow because it involves entreating people who frighten or even mean ill to our friends (or ourselves). I happen to be in a position of extreme privilege so this post is a little too easy for me to write. Consulting with people I disagree with presents no threat to me. Others definitely will not have that experience. I don't mean to suggest that people who feel at risk should try it. But I feel like there's not a whole lot of options available to me right now. I don't want my country to tear itself apart in two or four years from now. I'm really at a loss here as to what's the best way forward for everyone, and for the country.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for this. Thanks for humanizing both sides. That's we need right now, not blame and anger.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm tired of the idea that hicks and blue collar workers won the election for Trump. A majority of white male college graduate voters voted for Trump [0]. Clinton won less of the white female college graduate vote than Obama even after all of the Trump scandals.

My take is that, sadly, there are a lot of so-called "elites" that care more about their own self-interest than social issues. In other words, people hate paying any amount of taxes regardless of where the money goes. One of the "dog whistles" that the media didn't pick up on was trump signaling that "hey, I'm rich too, I will lower your taxes if you vote for me".

That being said, I am also sick of articles that say the Democratic party needs some reflection, introspection, etc. , It was an extremely close race. We did well but we didn't win. That is all.

[0] [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-couldnt-win- over...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-couldnt-win-over-white- women/)

<comment><USER23> You didn't do well. Doing well would have been getting 66+ million votes like Obama did in 2008 and 2012. Trump got fewer votes than either Romney or McCain, but still won because Clinton did too. Democrat numbers were down 10% over the last time around, in an era where a 5% margin of victory is considered gigantic. And all this while running against the most immoral, least qualified, and craziest candidate in living memory. If you think this qualifies as doing well, I really wonder what doing poorly would look like.

<comment><USER22> Clinton won the popular vote. I mean short of winning, what else qualifies? I don't subscribe to the idea that the party in an election who received over half the vote is somehow falling apart at the seams.

Pundits do this every time there is an election but in reality it's the swing of the pendulum. The parties and peoples feelings towards them evolve over time and power changes hands between the two parties. Does that mean you need to go cry in a corner and question your reality each time your party loses an election? No it does not.

<comment><USER23> Winning the popular vote by a small margin, against the worst candidate anyone alive has ever seen, and not by enough to actually secure victory, is not "doing well" in my estimation.

If you want to see what "doing well" would look like, see the results of the 2008 or 2012 elections.

And what do you mean "over half the vote"? The current number according to Google has 48% going to Clinton. She got more than Trump, yes, but less than half.

If getting 60 million votes qualifies as "doing well," then how do you describe getting nearly 70 million votes in 2008? Is losing almost 10 million votes in 8 years, while the electorate has grown substantially and demographics have shifted considerably in your favor, a sign that everything is fine?

<comment><USER22> The "worst candidate evah!" is obviously subjective because there are many many people who are very passionate about Trump. Because I see them on my Facebook feed and I saw them leading up to election day waving signs at major intersections.

Again, the idea that people unenthusiastically moped down to the polls to cast their vote for a candidate they didn't want just doesn't line up with the facts.

<comment><USER23> Of course it's subjective. If you want an objective measure, how about saying: a candidate who was worse than Romney and McCain, based on the absolute number of voters and the percentage of eligible voters that he ended up winning.

I don't see how a lack of enthusiasm conflicts with the facts. Voter turnout was way down. Democrats won way fewer votes than the last two times around, to the point that they lost the election even though their opponent _also_ did worse than before.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> "If we pin this election on coastal elites, we are excusing white working- class and rural Americans for voting for a man accused of violating the Fair Housing Act by refusing to rent apartments to black people."

This sentence alone illustrates the very membrane at work that holds together the "intelligentia" bubble. Accusing the dummies of immorality while just employing more advanced tools for your deviseveness does make you the bigger bigot.

When your mind starts copy pasting headlines from the "accusational BS by trolls" folder to your personal "trusted facts" folder thats stupidity at work. But if the passing BS is just allowed if its coming from inside your echo chamber that doesn't make you more elevated. It just elevates your ignorance.

<comment><USER25> But Trump did violate the Fair Housing Act:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald- trump-h...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump- housing-race.html?_r=0)

But I guess believing in "facts" means I am part of some out of touch intelligentsia.

<comment><USER24> No reason for sarcasm.

The mental copy pasting that you've done is: Saying Donald Trump is a straight up racist, while your "facts" are headlines, whose actual article's details like

 _" While there is no evidence that Mr. Trump personally set the rental policies at his father's properties..."_

fails to make it into your conscience.

<comment><USER24> _" Despite citing the judge's heritage as a source of the conflict, Mr. Trump said that as president he would have no problem appointing Mexican-American judges.

"I would love to," he said. "I would do it in an instant.""_

Doesn't sound racist to me. Also digging this stuff up in the midst of an election is of course a reason for hyperbole. So did the Clintons with the leaked emails about Wikileaks, Russia or the sitting FBI-director.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> > And rather than embrace it, rural and white working-class Americans are > twisting and turning, fighting it every step of the way. We will never > return to the days where a white man could barely graduate high school and > walk onto a factory floor at 18 and get a well-paying job for life. That > hasn't set in for much of the Midwest.

There's the problem and the bubble people are talking about. White men (or any sex and color really) that can barely finish high school aren't going away anytime soon and they still need jobs. Not everyone is capable of more academic work.

<comment><USER27> They need job skills and few high schools teach them. One of the high schools I went to had a small program with the community college next door for people to learn marketable skills instead of the usual electives. The other had nothing like it.

tl;dr Study beyond high school is not just liberal arts.

<comment><USER28> They have job skills, the jobs disappeared.

It's not their fault.

If outsourcing suddenly produced high quality issue free software for cheap tomorrow then we'd all be just as screwed despite having such great skills.

<comment><USER29> Most job losses were due to automation, not necessarily outsourcing.

And if they have job skills for jobs that don't exist anymore it's as if they don't have job skills at all. But it's certainly not their fault, it's the education system that has to teach job skills, you can't learn that by yourself.

<comment><USER30> _> if they have job skills for jobs that don't exist anymore it's as if they don't have job skills at all._

Exactly this. At the risk of reductio ad absurdum, would anyone consider the ability to write (not compositional writing, just literally the ability to put a pen down on paper and form letters) a "marketable job skill" any more? Not likely, since that skill can be replaced by a $60 printer what doesn't need a salary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> \- I hear a lot from people that issues like gay rights didn't hit home until they became friends with (or realized that they were friends with) a gay person. Similarly with for example Muslims. This article hit home there.

\- The point about jobs seems very spot on - jobs have been drying up throughout the Midwest, particularly steady/long-term low-education (i.e. manufacturing) jobs, and national leadership has not done anything to address it. The economic story of the last 8 years has been a recovery for the wealthy and financial sector only, so it's no wonder the rural midwest see no hope from the Democrats. It sounds like Trump's main plan for this is to create jobs for people that destroy the very environment they live in, which is tragic. Long term, I wonder what feasible plan could address the jobs issue besides a basic income, or massive government hiring for jobs like building infrastructure.

<comment><USER32> > _The economic story of the last 8 years has been a recovery for the wealthy > and financial sector only,_

There's a kernel of insight here, but as stated this is a grossly inaccurate summary.

On the whole the economy is doing radically better than it was during the recession in almost every way. I recommend diving into BLS data yourself if you're curious about particular regions, industries, etc.

<comment><USER33> > as stated this is a grossly inaccurate summary. On the whole the economy is > doing radically better than it was during the recession in almost every way.

Your assuming "the whole economy" is an accurate measurement of how citizens finances are doing. But those two things are often not related in any way.

In my "flyover-Midwest" community, the stronger the economy does, the worse off real people's lives are here. "The economy" rewards companies whose profits go up and expenses go down. But in much of flyover America, "expenses" represents real people's paychecks, and "profits" represent real peoples bills.

Good jobs rarely come here. These folks don't own stocks or bonds. Many don't have retirement plans. Whenever the economy improves, all that _really_ means _here_ is "someone I know got fired today" or "the price of something I buy just got jacked up".

Just one example: Google claims GM's stock price is at it's highest peak for the entire year. Two days ago, GM laid off 2,000 people in Michigan and Ohio. Wealthy citizens (or "coastal elites") got taken care of nicely, but "rural" Americans who actually _work_ for GM just got yet-another kick to the teeth.

> I recommend diving into BLS data yourself if you're curious about particular > regions, industries, etc.

This is where a lot of the "out of touch liberal ivory tower" insults come from. Telling people who work two jobs and still can't afford rent or childcare that "your wrong, my census data proves your doing just fine" is the kind of tone deaf communication that makes people desperate enough to elect a "human Molotov cocktail".

If your a person who's been suffering for years, and the choices are "just me and my neighbors keep getting screwed" or "everybody in the whole nation gets screwed", a lot of people will take that second option. I don't defend that decision, and it's certainly not the vote I cast. But I'm not so out of touch with my neighbors as to pretend it's unfathomable that so many people chose that.

<comment><USER32> Are you suggesting that HN commenter spiritofenter is "people who work two jobs and still can't afford rent or childcare"

Anyhow, inre his original

> _national leadership has not done anything to address it_

Obama and the Democrats have been trying hard to push for more infrastructure spending, improved childcare, more money to bail out struggling state governments, minimum wage increases, more parental leave, continuing fixes to the healthcare system, reduced prescription drug prices, relief for the heavily indebted, etc., but (a) they've faced unprecedented obstructionism and deliberate dysfunction from the GOP (for instance states refusing federal money for medicare expansion and trying to sabotage the ACA), and (b) these are difficult problems which can't be solved by waving a wand and uttering a magic incantation.

The auto industry bailout and stimulus bill and ACA were what they could get passed through congress, not their preferred policy solutions to these problems.

At the state level a number of GOP-controlled states have cut state spending and employment dramatically, closed schools, slashed income taxes for the wealthy and replaced them with sales taxes, undertaken targeted campaigns to destroy local unions (both public and private sector), etc.

<comment><USER31> Thank you for your points and information.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I still live in rural Wisconsin. I wanted to disagree from the title but after reading it I really can't.

And I agree, we're not special. Rural Wisconsin went Obama in 2008. I didn't see a deluge of articles discussing the implications of the rural people. Wisconsin has been pretty close to the US vote, as a whole, for years. If your candidate wants to sway that vote maybe they should travel to the state at least _once_ in the campaign. Well, it's just a thought.

<comment><USER5> As someone also from rural Wisconsin, I can tell you that the ignorance there is more palpable than ever.

I'm not talking about record levels of domestic abuse cases, meth labs, or even leading the nation in DUI's. Rural Wisconsin has always had it's own issues in a charming sort of way.

I'm talking about the sheer gleefulness with which rural Wisconsinites abandoned critical thinking this election. There was always a small spark of anti-intellectualism in rural Wisconsin, but this election was unlike any other in how the misinformation being spread fanned the flames of that rhetoric.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> One technical factor I don't see discussed much is that when someone immigrates, they generally choose a specific location with job opportunities. If you look around you and don't see many immigrants, that should tell you something.

<comment><USER36> There's some truth to that but immigrants also move to cities where people like them already live. To some degree, they also move to cities they have heard of from American TV and movies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> > More Americans need to see more of the United States. They need to shake > hands with a Muslim, or talk soccer with a middle aged lesbian, or attend a > lecture by a female business executive.

First off, why is this site screwing with my clipboard. Ugh.

Anyway, that's all fair. The people who are making decent money living in cities should go out to Michigan and spend some time looking for a factory job or talking to the workers who have been dealing with a shitty situation for decades.

> If we pin this election on coastal elites, we are excusing white working- > class and rural Americans for voting for a man accused of violating the Fair > Housing Act by refusing to rent apartments to black people. If we pin this > election on coastal elites, we are excusing white working-class and rural > Americans for voting for a man who called Mexicans rapists, drug dealers and > criminals. If we pin this election on coastal elites, we are excusing white > working-class and rural Americans for voting for a man who called for a > complete ban on Muslim immigration.

Yes, people did vote for a man who said/did all those things. We can choose to believe these people are just racists/sexists/too dumb to do anything else, or we can ask them why and see what the response is.

You can also ask why the democratic voters just didn't feel bothered to show up. Was this just arrogance? Was it apathy?

> We will never return to the days where a white man could barely graduate > high school and walk onto a factory floor at 18 and get a well-paying job > for life. That hasn't set in for much of the Midwest.

The problem isn't the 18 year old who's upset about a factory job he can't get. It's the 50 year old who's job is gone, or under constant threat. It's about the 35 year old who's life hasn't really gone anywhere, because he got caught in the whole thing falling apart.

You tell someone who is living the good life on the coast that it's time to "make america great again!" and they will wonder what wrong with it. Say it to someone in Michigan and they will remember that Detroit used to have the highest per capita income in the country.

<comment><USER37> Pretty sane compared to some of the posts here.

It seems like people are completely ignoring that all age groups are involved. It's very easy to say make America great again and capture: the 80 year old that has had there retirement plan disappear from a company going to rust, to capture the 50 year old that wants to help their children through college (but instead needs help themselves), it's pretty easy to capture the people who watch a plant/factory finally get off shored (after its third try of doing so, this time with the only apparent difference of NAFTA).

It's also pretty easy to see the opposite candidate 'playing dirty' against the person who would have been a great help to their child, having secret meetings with the 'type of people'(financial) that helped create a region called the rust belt (that's bigger than all but a handful of countries), and it's pretty easy to see a candidate so unversed with dealing with people unlike her that she can't even properly shame them (while I imagine most people can't shame Trump, better is expected of a candidate. The last one isn't my words).

Likewise grew up in Wisconsin (now in VA), even voted against the nightmare that is Trump. But a lot of people here are lacking perspectives on other parts of the country. they are a lot more similar to their rainbow workforce (perspective, daily problems, expectations, fortune, humor) than they think they are, even if they do differ culturally.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Many countries, such as Singapore, South Korea, and Vietnam, require all males to serve ~2 years of military service (usually not in the field, just training and drills). While there are ways for the most privileged to get out of it, the people who I've talked to have described meeting people from parts of their country that they had no idea about.

I wonder if this idea could be applied to the US, making everyone 18-25 go 6-18 months of basic training and drills. You would certainly get to meet a lot of people you would not have otherwise.

<comment><USER39> Sure it is possible, and it was there, but the U.S. got rid of the draft after Vietnam war.

And meeting _everyone_ of your age cohort in the army conscription service is a revealing experience, I can assure you. More so than elementary school, because schools are like the areas where the pupils live; there is less diversity. To meet _everyone_ is an experience.

On the other hand, nowadays countries with conscription (like where I live, Finland) are not quite the same. The army here is more picky that before, so you actually don't see _everyone_. For instance, when I entered service (1986), only 2-3 % entered the alternative civilian service and 1-2 % were disqualified. Now 7 % go to civilian service and 2-3 % are disqualified (for medical reasons, etc).

Thus, you have less pacifists in the army, and drug users and career criminals are excluded. The same would surely apply in the U.S. even if it had conscription.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> keep telling middle america how wrong they all are. When they rise up against you at the ballot box, keep telling them how wrong they all are. It'll work eventually!

<comment><USER41> Popular and right are orthogonal values.

In addition, just like Brexit, I see a lot of people who appear to have completely ignored the concrete results of their actions.

For example, me to Trump voter: "You do realize that you voted to throw your own daughter and my mother off of healthcare? Your daughter couldn't get coverage before Obamacare because she has mild sleep apnea while being middle- aged. My mother couldn't get healthcare before the ACA because she is a breast cancer survivor." Trump voter: "Well, I didn't really want that."

What am I supposed to say at that point?

Please tell me which platform plank of yours is more important than your own daughter receiving healthcare?

Please tell me which platform plank of yours is more important than my mother receiving healthcare?

Really, I want to know this.

And, when you give me your answer about god, guns, gays, mexicans, emails, Benghazi or any other stupid thing that doesn't impact our lives one iota other than to serve as a propaganda vehicle, don't be surprised when I tell you how _FUCKING WRONG_ you are.

Thanks.

<comment><USER42> There was a category of people [not me, fwiw] for which abortion was the singular issue that made them vote for what they considered a deeply flawed candidate. Everything else paled in comparison.

<comment><USER43> Abortion also doesn't affect anyone other than the woman that chooses to exercise the right. Thus also a pretty shit reason to vote for someone.

<comment><USER44> From the pro-life point of view, it also affects the unborn child who is murdered. For many of them, abortion is _literally the same thing_ as letting people kill their toddlers because they decided that they don't want them for whatever reason. This is the divide.

(I realize that there are other pregnancy complications that don't literally equate to having an inconvenient toddler, and pro-lifers aren't as consistent on how they view those cases, but those are a small minority of abortions.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> While I agree that travel is a great mind expander, telling people that they need to travel is about as effective as just telling people directly that they need to expand their minds. Which is to say, maybe a good nudge for people who were already leaning that way, but otherwise ineffective.

I hope the lesson we all learn from this election is that if we have ideas we want to spread in the near term, the only effective thing to do is engage with people who disagree and respectfully make our case to them and listen to what they have to say.

</comment><comment><USER46> Travelling is such an important way for people to grow, but it's so hard to appreciate its value without actually doing it. It's shocking how many people have only left their state to visit Disney Land.

<comment><USER47> Travel is great, but it's an expensive luxury especially for families with multiple children. Sometimes that one trip to Disneyland is all they can afford.

<comment><USER32> Even poor families with multiple children can manage to travel on a limited budget, if they really want to.

The bigger impediment is profound lack of interest/curiosity about other places. Take George W. Bush as an example; he certainly didn't lack for resources. [http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/102900a.html](http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/102900a.html)

<comment><USER48> > Even poor families with multiple children can manage to travel on a limited > budget, if they really want to.

You mean with all that paid vacation time they don't have, after using all 5-10 days of it (if there's any at all) to stay home with sick kids, or holding it in reserve to do same later in the year? Hell, that's a problem for most families period, poor or not. Vacation time is very scarce for most people and will continue to be until some significant minimum is required by law.

<comment><USER32> Sorry, that was inelegantly stated. Obviously there are folks having a hard time just getting by, and taking long vacations to jet around the world for months at a time is infeasible.

I'm not suggesting that anyone struggling to survive should prioritize travel over eating.

But I know plenty of people who grew up in dirt poor families who managed to take occasional long road trips in their childhood. And I know people who grew up in extremely wealthy families who barely ever left their hometown.

My point was just that means aren't everything; attitude is also important.

<comment><USER48> OK, cool, point makes sense. Just wanted to make sure no one was blaming a large portion of the country for having effectively zero _actual_ vacation time, whatever their attitude toward travel might be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> It's curious that in America, the peoples of the coast demand our inland citizens tolerate and accept other nations inland people's beliefs.

The United States is far and away one of the most multiethnic nations in the world, yet we still insist on crying "not good enough!"

Yet the coastal elite have had little compunction sending the same middle Americans they so revile out into the world as agents of American imperialism to foist upon others like middle-Afghanis and middle-Veitnamese the parts of Americana that the coast likes -- consumerism, secularism, universal suffrage etc.

And guess what? Generally these middle-* people dislike being told that their way of life is wrong, and it typically hardens their resolve -- yielding Daesh and Republican Presidents.

So no, sir, the coast is wrong, and frankly, most of the world is growing tired getting belittled by "tolerant" people.

<comment><USER50> "Yet the coastal elite have had little compunction sending the same middle Americans they so revile out into the world as agents of American imperialism to foist upon others like middle-Afghanis and middle-Veitnamese the parts of Americana that the coast likes -"

What?!? The coasts have been more strongly anti-war than middle America for a long time.

<comment><USER51> The anti-war voices of both the Right and the Left have been marginalized by the Center for a very long time. Do you really believe that Mrs. Clinton is anti-war? Or even Mr. Obama (Nobel Peace Prize notwithstanding)?

You are correct, however, that middle America tends to be more honest about their perspectives on aggressive US foreign policy. Many liberals would say "yes, the US should get out of the Middle East" but then they pull the lever for a rather hawkish presidential candidate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> The author may be right about the cultural factors he talks about, but the economic issues, which I suspect are much more significant in the midwest's decision on Tuesday, are being seriously understated.

One sentence only, and a major understatement at that: "Change has not been kind to the Midwest and rural America."

</comment><comment><USER53> I live in a big urban area in the midde-west. I don't care about poor white people sadness or coastal elite arrogance. To me both of those are ignorant extremes in isolated bubbles.

You people seriously need to join the military, live in foreign country for more than a year, or go shake a stranger's hand. Seriously... the level of ignorance and isolation demonstrated in some of these comments is dumbfounding. It college is your solution to "shaking it up" you are probably still really isolated.

</comment><comment><USER54> I grew up in Ames Iowa and my sister was born there. An adoptee and I were the only Asian kids in our class. There were a total of three in the entire school. I had at most two incidents related to race. Two is a lot fewer than the number of incidents I've dealt with in coastal cities.

</comment><comment><USER55> This about rural America sitting in a time bubble, isolated from the rest of the world? This is true.

Our dear values, the Aaron Sorkin kind of shows we love, are meaningless to a population that have always understood the city as a thing to visit one of these days, where multiculturalism is an impossible luxury, and where making do with tthe clothes from 5 years ago is necessary because the factory has been closed since that guy from NY bought it, dismantled it, and started importing the pieces from elsewhere.

They are in the past, because that's what they have, and none of this media we tout and eulogize means anything to them, isolated from the world and only receiving messages from the usual populists messengers.

</comment><comment><USER56> The Trump victory looks a lot like Occupy Wall Street, I think, but the mainstream version.

</comment><comment><USER57> While this thread is on the topic of stereotyping, I'd just like to point out that the entire Midwest is not on this rapid decline.

If you look at Metro Detroit, the area's still one of the richest in the country and is thriving. In fact, the metropolitan areas in Michigan were the only parts that went blue.

I appreciate that the author specifically mentioned he/she was from the rural Midwest. It seems like we need to establish more metropolitan areas in the Midwest (also better define the boundaries of that region) so that service jobs can be created there.

Manufacturing allowed factories to be built anywhere. As it currently stands, it seems like service jobs require a large urban area.

</comment><comment><USER58> "I'm from the Midwest, and I love the Midwest, but it's not representative of modern America"

This is your political bigotry.

BTW - the issue regarding 'Coastal Elites' not being 'true Americans' is not so much where they live - it's the fact that NYC, LA, SF etc. are highly transient cities - without multigenerational communities - they import culture, or create little bits of fleeting culture on their own.

Large American cities are a new phenom in the West. Even in Frankfurt, Germany, it's still walkabout and people live near their families etc..

<comment><USER58> Sorry, by 'political bigotry' I meant the assumption that 'The Coasts' represent what is 'modern' or in any way ideal.

<comment><USER28> > I meant the assumption that 'The Coasts' represent what is 'modern'

They do though. Multicultural, global trade centers, high tech industry.

They are the modern world. That's a big part of the problem, there are places that haven't adapted and as a result are suffering.

For a lot of people (say, the vast number of americans who live there) they are closer to the ideal than living in a town in wyoming or wherever. Same thing is true the other way.

<comment><USER58> "They do though. Multicultural, global trade centers, high tech industry."

No they don't.

They represent a specific vision of the future.

There are many people living very high standards of living all around Bavaria, Stwitzerland, Netherlands, Scandinavia - that are not part of 'city centres, multiculturalism, or high tech'.

The future is whatever we want to make it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Totally accurate IMO as I have relatives from the midwest but I can't imagine them reading this type of stuff, let alone agreeing with this. I have this hope the federal government will increase the power of states to have much more autonomy in their own laws so the ones pulling their own weight can do so unencumered. Let the other ones be better or worse off on their own accord and see where people move to as things get more extreme. Maybe that's a nice idea for a simulation.

<comment><USER48> > I have this hope the federal government will increase the power of states to > have much more autonomy in their own laws so the ones pulling their own > weight can do so unencumered.

A lot of really nice things that already exist (at least somewhere) or may soon exist, like single-payer healthcare or universal basic income, don't work very well if you can't control borders and imports, which states can't do. Without _actual_ sovereignty they'll still be subject to many of the same problems that make it effectively impossible for voluntary associations to address all sorts of important issues.

<comment><USER59> I hate that I can't fix my misspelling of "unencumbered" as I wrote it around 2 AM... but to further explain my imagined and laymen view point in terms of politics, the federal government would be responsible for things like borders and constitutional rights etc. but step back on things the state legalizes that do not infringe on those basic freedom's such as weed for example and money toward scientific research or a carbon tax, etc, that the state's themselves can decide on. Even Roe vs. Wade and Gay Marriage can be up for grabs. The places that are backwards cannot force people to live there and CA and other progressive states will get all the good people anyway. The country cannot have a black and white approach, one-size fits all, obviously as it is so divided as the author describes. How can you have people living in the past dictating our future? It is dead weight. Try telling someone in the backwoods they have to have more restrictions on their guns from a perspective of being in a crowded city. It doesn't make sense to have the same laws everywhere although I still think the gays and women's rights are fundamental but that doesn't seem to be the consensus on the red states.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I have traveled the world and not just "shaking hands with a Muslim" but lived in Muslim countries. I have studied Q'ran in order to understand it and have friends there.

When you travel to another country at first you get in love with the new culture but after some months you also start understanding the "not so good things".

If you believe you know about Muslims because you shake hands with one you are totally wrong. This Muslim is totally surrounded by a foreign culture and he has to adapt. It is a completely different thing when you(as Christian or worse atheist) are the one who has to adapt to theirs(atheism is punished in most Muslim countries, Christianism means you are at best second class citizen).

Most of you Americans live in a bubble(all of you, not just the MidWest) because you are at least 5000 miles away from EuroAsia (and Africa and SouthAmerica) where 5 billion of the 7 billion people on Earth live. You speak just one language and have a tremendously homogeneous culture and population. In other countries just for survival you need to speak several languages and understand-respect several cultures, not just shaking hands with isolated members of them.

This makes extremely easy for media to manipulate you. If you hear Putin talk, you are never going to understand what he says and make your own opinion, you can't talk with actual people living in Ukraine, or India or China, or just go there(in China for example most people do not speak English), you have to trust others that have, and these people have their best own interest in mind, not yours.

For example, we know from wikileaks mail leaks that France invades Lybia for two main reasons: First to steal their gas and oil, second because Gaddafy is saving an enormous amount of gold and silver and wants to create an African currency backed by precious metals.

Was the American public aware of those interests? Of course not, they believe it is about freedom and democracy, as if people enjoyed having their country devastated by war by foreign powers, their family members die or be raped, to loose all their possessions.

Is the American public aware of the deal(of an American oil company with contractors and other countries) to make a pipeline over Syria to transport the natural gas of Qatar to Europe? Agreement done without the support of Assad of course, which meant the civil war for his country.

Of course not, people buy whatever they watch on tv, war is a racket and it has always been.

I am not American and do not like Trump, but I'm glad Hillary is out as she was the main responsible of direct Russia confrontation, as she wanted to repeat the Cold war as having most of the population scared and frightened of a new nuclear world war is the best way for people not to oppose the militarization of the USA and it is a great excuse to control the media when the final debt bubble makes the financial system implode(Remember it was Bill Clinton who remove the Steagal Act and created all the derivatives mess).

If you want to get out of the bubble you need to get out of America for a while. It is certainly going to make you go out of your comfort zone, but then it will become easy as you will discover a world and opportunities you didn't know existed.

<comment><USER61> I think the excellent first half of your post was rather undermined by the suggestion that France intervened in the Libyan Revolution because they were worried by a desperately-fighting-to-stay-in-power Gadaffi's longstanding plan to introduce a gold dinar.

If nothing else, it's a reminder that worldliness is no innoculation against the tendency to be able to draw some very strange conclusions from selective, agenda-driven news reporting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Did anyone else make up BS answers to the questions they asked before you can read the article - what a waste of time.

</comment><comment><USER54> Trump supporters have have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing misogyny. They're bringing homophobia. They're racists. And some, I assume, are good people.

</comment><comment><USER63> As Bill Clinton once said (ironically enough): it's the economy, stupid.

Mid-westerners accurately saw this election as a way to do away with job killing trade deals.

If coastal elites were really serious about bridging the divide instead of talking down to unemployed midwesterners about gay rights they'd educate themselves about the TTIP, NAFTA & TPP and stop pretending that "a robot is going to steal those jobs" is anything more than an article of faith.

Edit: kind of figured this would get no coherent response and more downvotes than upvotes :)

</comment><comment><USER64> It's not because you met Dave. It's because you're an elite from the midwest that moved to the coast.

How many of your small town friends moved out and went to college? The smart people move out of small towns for better opportunities abroad. What's left is a group of people struggling to make ends meet. About the only opportunity they have left is the electoral college.

</comment><comment><USER65> Finally someone had the guts to speak truth

</comment><comment><USER66> I am amazed that this will be the first comment on this page that includes the word RELIGION.

</comment><comment><USER67> > people who choose to develop a substance abuse problem

Are you really this naive?

<comment><USER68> You should consider reading the HN guidelines.

 _When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."_

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

In your case, "Are you really this naive?" can be shortened to "".

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> When you live in the country, you are less likely to bump into, well, anyone. This is only exacerbated for minorities.

<comment><USER70> Although, if you live in the country, and you were born there, then there is a good chance you know everybody in the community, and are possibly related to a good chunk of them.

<comment><USER69> So imagine the confirmation bias at play when those same people try to imagine policies or politicians that can help all Americans.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> If you want the opinion of a fairly educated european white male, we see the rural US as a bunch of Cletus Spucklers. No offense. Trump's victory seems to be only the confirmation to this. I hope I am wrong.

<comment><USER72> "fairly educated european white male". IYI

And no, "we" do not all see rural US as Cletus Spucklers. You certainly do.

<comment><USER73> I suppose "IYI" here means "Intellectual Yet Idiot"? That's not the level at which we lead discussions on this site.

Save for the people who've actually been to rural America, people's opinion here of rural Americans certainly is very undifferentiated.

<comment><USER72> "we see the rural US as a bunch of Cletus Spucklers"

but that is a level you are happy with?

<comment><USER71> No. I believe that we have globalization but basically we don't know much about culture from other parts of the world, or what worries they have. We swim in a sea of misconceptions and archetypes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> Pure ignorant writing.

Do we live in a country of immigration laws or not? This author seems to think it's a one world government.

<comment> grey-area Try to engage reasonably with other views, even if you really disagree. For example if you expanded on your first sentence and deleted the first bit 'pure ignorant writing' you're far more likely to have a meaningful conversation with someone, maybe even change their mind.

<comment><USER74> The author was intentionally writing around the fact that these "undocumented immigrants" are illegal. When someone purposefully obfuscates an issue, I'll call a spade, a spade, and say the writing is pure ignorance.</comment></comment></comment>


Find out interesting facts about your name (fixed) - <AUTHOR> http://whatsinmyname.prokta.com/

<comment><USER2> My surname is "D'israeli", with the apostrophe. When I try to submit, it just generates a new captcha and says to try again. If I drop the apostrophe, it works fine.

Articles appear fairly regularly about names and assumptions thereof, and as someone doing stats on surnames, I would have hoped that a little punctuation would have been handled just fine....

</comment><comment><USER3> The data for this for uncommon names seems really off.

My last name is uncommon, so the most popular first names shows 10 names, each at 10%, and my name is nowhere on the list. Searching on Google for my last name shows many results about a minor celebrity whose first name is also missing from the list.

On popular names this probably evens out, but for uncommon names I appear to not exist here.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, I wonder about the data itself. A similar site shows that there are 230 people in the US with my last name, and I'm the only one here with my first/last name combo (there is apparently one in Canada). Also my last name is strongly Irish, and it showed no percentage of people in Ireland with my last name, but a lot in GB.

<comment><AUTHOR> Its based on the analysis of 45 million names on social networks so it can be biased towards people who predominantly are present on social networks.

<comment><USER3> I am present and public on most social networks and my name is still not in this data set.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> You can read about why we developed the app here: [http://www.beevolve.com/whats-in-my-name/](http://www.beevolve.com/whats-in- my-name/)

</comment><comment><USER5> Heat map of population? Are these figures per-capita (Josephs per citizen instead of totals)

<comment><AUTHOR> Its percentage of Josephs in each country. Is that what you are asking?</comment></comment>


Megaupload 2.0 Will Link File Transfers to Bitcoin Transactions - <AUTHOR> https://torrentfreak.com/megaupload-2-0-will-link-file-transfers-bitcoin-transactions-160805/ <comment><USER2> Isn't this what got Megaupload in trouble in the first place?

Also doesn't Kim Dotcom not own the Mega trademark anymore?</comment>


Shots fired at MIT - report of an active shooter near Bldg. 32 (Stata) - <AUTHOR> http://emergency.mit.net/ <comment><USER2> Breakdown of what is happening on this reddit thread [1]. You can listen to the police scanner here [2]. Live steaming video here [3]. For those listening on the scanner this is the area/streets they are talking about [4].

[1] [http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1cnwms/mods_removed_th...](http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/1cnwms/mods_removed_thread_live_updates_of_boston/)

[2] [http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS- Scanner-s...](http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS- Scanner-s146109/)

[3] <http://www1.whdh.com/video/7newslive>

[4] [https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=100+talcott&hl=en&ll=4...](https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=100+talcott&hl=en&ll=42.363142,-71.162395&spn=0.003413,0.008256&sll=42.363142,-71.16342&sspn=0.003413,0.0103&hq=100+talcott&t=m&z=18)

<comment><USER3> The most accurate information may be gleaned from police scanners. News cameras may give you pictures of the amount of police officers at the scene, but they cannot get close enough to give you video of what's actually happening. The irony is that of those three sources of information (Web site, radio, news camera), the best source of "real time" information is the oldest. Yes, it's true that the scanner is being broadcast over the internet, but you could listen to the police scanner with amateur radio equipment decades ago.

EDIT: I find that it is much easier to listen to the police scanner than a news station, because the SNR ratio is much higher. When there is a break in the action, news reporters fill the air time with speculation or repeat the same old information. On the police scanner, when they have no new information, they are silent.

Having said that, I still find it cool to hear an officer ask the dispatcher (on the radio) to tell an overhead helicopter to point a searchlight at a certain location, and moments later see on television a helicopter flying overhead with its searchlight on.

<comment><USER4> Maybe it's the fact that I spent my youth growing up around HAM radio and then did several years of EMS dispatching, but I much prefer listening to the scanner than the news. It can be chaotic at times, garbled at others, but if you're used to sorting it out, it's the best way to get accurate information.

<comment><USER5> There are a lot of people listening. I think perhaps the best way of learning information now is to follow the info posted in #bostonbombing on Freenode, they are live-updating what they hear on the scanners + a lot of other sources.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> An MIT police officer was killed.

 _A university police officer has died after being shot on the Massachusetts Institute of Technology campus in Cambridge late Thursday, according to state police._

[http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/cambridge- gunshots/index.ht...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/18/us/cambridge- gunshots/index.html)

<comment><USER7> It may or may not be connected, but police in Boston have surrounded two men who are exchanging automatic gunfire them and have thrown grenades, another officer down. The grenades have been mentioned repeatedly, it's not 'I think I heard.'

<http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web> via Reddit.

:-/

<comment><USER8> That's in Watertown not Cambridge, so it sounds unrelated. All this stuff happening around Boston at the same time jeez

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10002469/Boston- marathon-bombs-live.html)

<comment><USER9> Watertown is the next town over, and just up the road from where they filled up with fuel after carjacking... so, yeah, looks like it might be very related.

<comment><USER10> I heard the carjacking reported on scanner while the MIT standoff was still going on, and there was a pretty short time between police at the MIT incident switching channels and some frantic-sounding talk from police following up on LoJack's report that the stolen car was in Watertown. So I'm inclined to believe these are two separate things.

<comment><USER9> Here's a helpful map of the events that happened so far that show the proximity of the various events:

[https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200082141349599835237.0...](https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200082141349599835237.0004daaf434ba5147dce8&msa=0&iwloc=A)

<comment><USER10> The carjacking victim reported that they'd been driving around for about half an hour before he escaped at a gas station. Time's arrow beats proximity.

<comment><USER11> Occam's razor beats "time's arrow".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Don't wish to make light of this at all, but I do wonder- how often does this happen? After all, "shots fired" is not an uncommon thing in many cities in the US.

I just wonder whether we will look back in 12 months time at the "week of hell" and realise that it was actually just a week in which we found all the things that usually go on _every week_ that we don't hear about.

<comment><USER13> Having never lived in the US, I find it astounding that you could make a comment like that and get so many nods.

I've never even heard a gunshot, and I don't know anyone who ever has.

<comment><USER14> When I used to live in Philadelphia, summer holiday nights used to be very unnerving. Previously I had thought that firing guns wildly into the air in some form of celebration was something that was only done in underdeveloped countries... I grew up in a very rural area where there were lots of guns, but nobody was that irresponsible with them.

<comment><USER15> > I had thought that firing guns wildly into the air in some form of > celebration was something that was only done in underdeveloped countries...

...it is.

<comment><USER16> And the hate America first crowd rolls on.

<comment><USER15> no, no, no, you're looking at it all wrong.

The crowd is not "Hate America".

The Crowd is "America needs to get better". The first step to fixing problems in to acknowledge they exist.

I don't know about you, I strive for constant improvement in my life.

<comment><USER16> Listen to the uncle of the bombers, he has more sense than you.

<comment><USER14> At the very least, in the specific case of people firing their guns wildly into the air on holidays, I think it is fair to say that there is plenty of room for improvement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> "Second officer down, hand grenades and automatic gunfire."

In Watertown, Spruce and Lincoln.

<http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web>

<comment><USER17> The feed is no longer working for me, maybe too much traffic? Does anyone know of a live transcript?

<comment><USER18> [http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS- Scanner-s...](http://tunein.com/radio/Boston-Police-Fire-and-EMS- Scanner-s146109/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "There was a shooting at 32 Vassar St... No suspect description... No direction of flight..." MIT officer was shot and weapon stolen, I think they said the weapon was recovered. Officer is at MGH. Witness in lobby of Stata saw man in cowboy hat.

(All that on the police scanner in the last minute or so)

<comment><AUTHOR> Live stream of police scanner: <http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web>

<comment><USER19> Thanks for this.

Kinda feels weird sitting in Jamaica listening to the police scanner around MIT.

Kinda awesome too - I know the tech is simple...but actually experiencing it, gives you this "world is small" feeling.

<comment><USER20> I would dearly love to be able to listen to the Jamaican police scanner!

<comment><USER19> Hrmmm....now that I think about it...so would I!

I wonder how that could be arranged.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Anyone else get the feeling we are we making HN become like every news/forum site now? Reporting every and any shot fired anywhere in the world?

<comment><USER22> I would imagine that MIT is particularly close to the hearts of many on this site.

<comment><USER21> Sigh. That justifies spamming HN?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> via the Atlantic Wire: [http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/theres- shoot...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/theres-shooter- loose-and-officer-down-mit/64379/)

MIT issued an emergency alert at 10:48 on Monay night reporting shots fired on the university campus. The school newspaper reports, "Shots fired near 32 Vassar St (Stata Center), police officer down. Please stay inside." For now, details are scarce, but the suspect is on the loose and considered armed and extremely dangerous.

This is a developing story. We'll update you as new information comes in.

</comment><comment><USER23> The MIT shooter was one of the marathon bombing terrorists according to CNN if I got it correctly

<http://bit.ly/11pohgx>

> The search followed a violent night in which authorities say the men > allegedly hurled explosives at pursuers after killing a university police > officer, robbing a convenience store and hijacking a car.

> ...Soon after, in Cambridge, across the Charles River from Boston, a > Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer was fatally shot while > he sat in his car, the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office said in > statement. Police believe the bombing suspects were responsible for the > shooting.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> One marathon suspect has been captured, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation.

Another remains on the loose in Watertown after a firefight with police. Authorities have established a 20-block perimeter as they search for him.

Via Boston Globe: [http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/18/mit-police- offic...](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/18/mit-police-officer-hit- gunfire-cambridge-police-dispatcher-says/4UeCClOVeLr8PHLvDa99zK/story.html)

Does this source seem accurate? Remember that the globe AND CNN previously claimed an arrest in the marathon bombings had been made and it was incredibly embarrassing.

<comment><USER24> The article has been updated to clarify that this is merely speculative:

> Authorities would not comment on whether the events were connected to > Monday's Boston Marathon bombings. At least one of the suspects in Watertown > appeared to be a man in his 20s.

However, the first paragraph still says basically what it said when you posted.

> One suspect in Monday's Boston Marathon bombings has been captured

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> "MIT officer was shot and firearm was stolen. No suspect description, no direction of flight, happened about 45 minutes ago, was an MIT officer, is at Mass General now."

Manually transcribed from police scanner: <http://www.broadcastify.com/listen/feed/6254/web>

</comment><comment><USER25> On the police scanner, I'm hearing shots fired, grenades, and explosives. Wow. This is not going well.

EDIT: And officer down. That's been confirmed again.

EDIT 2: Two suspects down, one sent to hospital.

<comment><USER26> "definitely hand grenades and automatic gunfire, and a second officer down".

Holy shit... WTF is going on up there?!?

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> RT @NBCConnecticut: #Breaking : Mass State Police confirm #MIT officer wounded in shooting has died.

</comment><comment><USER28> Apparently the shooters carjacked a Mercedes and headed towards Watertown (~7mi away) and are throwing explosives

Update: One suspect in custody

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> "All units retreat."

Sounds like there are explosives...

REMEMBER this is a chase that went from MIT to Watertown. This is NOT at MIT...far away now.

</comment><comment><USER29> Edit again. Much better collection of pics

<https://twitter.com/JoeXu/status/325086354176364545/photo/1>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> "The MIT officer, a member of the Cambridge Police Department, died from his wounds just before midnight."

<comment><USER30> Please link to the source for quotations like that (or cite it if it's not a webpage).

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> They are advising all officers to power down their cell phones for fear of explosion. This is bad.

They're talking about robots on the scene with "devices". It sounds like there are some suspicious devices, potentially explosives. Yikes.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> 1st suspect had explosive object on his person that detonated when he was caught - possibly what killed him.

They need to be incredibly careful with the 2nd suspect if we want any conclusive answers to why all of this happened.

</comment><comment><USER32> MIT Emergency Update: "MIT Police have determined that the suspect in this evening's shooting is no longer on campus. It is now safe to resume normal activities. Please remain vigilant in the coming hours"

</comment><comment><USER33> Possibly related carjacking after the shooting: <https://twitter.com/NewsBreaker/status/325105581968994306>

</comment><comment><USER34> Another unfortunate incident in Boston. MIT Police is bringing things under control. MIT has reported one MIT officer killed and have again requested everyone to be indoors.

Hope Boston becomes normal soon

</comment><comment><USER35> Set up <http://fastlane.grasswire.com> to follow it - hopefully the aggregate of all social media can be of some help

<comment><USER36> I have an exam at 7am tomorrow, please don't crash it again guys. Thanks!!

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I find it very interesting, that there are such websites. I wonder whether it works, but I guess that if only one life is saved by a notice on a website, that is enough

<comment><USER38> Well if you truly meant one life saved fair enough.

So you'd have to deducted the people killed in making sites like these first. So a web site is possibly $40,000. A humans life in the US is probably worth around $2,000,000. So it might cost one 50th of a humans life to create a site like this.

I'd guess not, but the figures are complicated, the site is used for other things for starters.

I'd suspect a suicide help line would be better money spent. Don't drink and drive campaigns, healthy eating, quitting smoking help all far better returns I'd guess.

<comment><USER39> Are you kidding us?

You cannot compare 'human lives' by comparing dollars. And surely, the site does not "cost" one 50th of "a" human life.

<comment><USER40> Economists figure these things out by looking at how much people value their own lives (e.g. how much of a salary increase people expect for high risk jobs). The figures calculated are surprisingly low (IIRC ~$300,000 for an Australian in the late 90s). You need to do this kind of analysis to do cost/benefit analysis -- e.g. should we spend money on making a road safer or building a new hospital?

According to Wikipedia -- $6-7M per life in the US.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life>

<comment><USER41> Not to be a dick, but is an MIT student life valued higher than an average US citizen? I ask this in terms of average production value.

I wonder if someone would be brave enough to even predict these figures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Explosives detonated according to the MIT newspaper, The Tech: <https://www.facebook.com/themittech>

</comment><comment><USER43> Am I crazy or does the person in this photo sort of resemble one of the people in the marathon suspect pictures released by the FBI? [http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/759765692....](http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/759765692.jpg)

I was wrong. But news outlets are reporting the people responsible for this tragedy are the same people suspected for the Boston Marathon bombing.

</comment><comment><USER26> Police are being asked to power down their cellphones to avoid possibly detonating some explosive devices.

"multiple locations of devices"... Damn.

</comment><comment><USER44> I'm mapping stuff from the reddit thread here - <http://goo.gl/maps/uz6kt>

Anyone can edit.

</comment><comment><USER9> An intense twitter feed on the shootout: <https://twitter.com/akitz>

</comment><comment><USER45> I see from the report that they are urging people to stay away from 32 specifically. Can anyone clarify if they have someone trapped inside the building, or are they just trying to keep people away from the police net?

<comment><USER17> It sounds like the suspect fled in an unknown direction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> 25 shots fired in Watertown.

[http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/theres- shoot...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/theres-shooter- loose-and-officer-down-mit/64379/)

</comment><comment><USER47> Hope everyone stays safe!

</comment><comment><USER48> [http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area- violence/index....](http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/19/us/boston-area- violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)

</comment><comment><USER49> Marathon Bomber's Twitter Account: <https://twitter.com/J_tsar> #conversationswithothersuspects

</comment><comment><USER26> Sounds like things are still pretty sketchy up there. Lots of shouting about possibly another active shooter on the loose. Wow, just wow...

</comment><comment><USER50> Stay safe everyone.

</comment><comment><USER51> Police scanner warns of "explosive object on his person" for the one suspect at large 1:33a pst.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: Removing info about suspicious MIT package since it has been verified as harmless.

</comment><comment><USER52> cambridge police on twitter. I live here. Its a somewhat automated system, but the sometime respond to questions.

<https://twitter.com/CambridgePolice>

</comment><comment><USER53> They are telling that the shooting is related to the marathon bombing.

</comment><comment><USER54> a good police scanner feed from the area: <http://scanner.wickedlocal.com/metro/cambridge.php>

</comment><comment><USER55> It seems one suspect (at least) connected to the shootings (as heard on the BPD scanner) was identified by reddit user yesterday ID'ed the brown male guy - Sunil Tripathi. Wow!

<comment><USER56> [deleted]

<comment><USER55> The suspect although brown is a US national brought up in Bryn Mawr, PA.

<https://twitter.com/MichaelSkolnik/status/325144306698567680>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Photo (some gore):

<http://static.dnaindia.com/images/cache/1824279.jpg>

Brief video:

<https://vine.co/v/bUigVwhlIhq>

</comment><comment><USER58> Boston is not having a good week.

<comment><USER59> FWIW there have been other shootings in Boston since the marathon. They've just been in places like Dudley Square that the national media don't care about. At least five people were shot in Boston on Wednesday night. [http://www.universalhub.com/crime/20130417-night- bloodshed-t...](http://www.universalhub.com/crime/20130417-night-bloodshed- two-shot-woodrow-avenue-dorchester.html)

There is something a bit perverse about the disparity in the media attention given to violence that occurs north of the Mass Pike versus south of the Pike.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Family of missing Brown university student Sunil Tripathi has taken down the Facebook page dedicated to him.

Source:

[http://gawker.com/5995034/active-shooter-incident-at-mit- mit...](http://gawker.com/5995034/active-shooter-incident-at-mit-mit-police- officer-shot)

Cached version of FB page :

[http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=help+us+find+sunil+tripathi...](http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=help+us+find+sunil+tripathi&d=4800958371725771&mkt=en- US&setlang=en-US&w=nld1_cZ9TIaHOQiAMeSeWxqLMiqIiDje)

Twitter account :

<https://twitter.com/findingsunny>

ABC News segment from March 30, 2013:

[http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/sunil-tripathi-video- missing...](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/sunil-tripathi-video-missing-ivy- league-student-case-18845408)

Police scanner identifies the names of Boston marathon suspects.

Suspect 1: Mike Mulugeta

Suspect 2: Sunil Tripathi

Source(s) :

<https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/325141259515752448>

<https://twitter.com/Salon/status/325152165305937920>

<https://twitter.com/YourAnonNews/status/325141840561074176>

UPDATE 1:

Middlesex DA: One suspect ( donning a black hat in previously released FBI images ) is dead, second suspect is at large, and is believed to be armed and dangerous.

Source:

<http://twitpic.com/ckd6xd>

UPDATE 2:

Boston PD releases picture of Suspect 2 retrieved earlier from the 7-Eleven convenience store, possibly the site of the carjacking.

Source:

[https://twitter.com/Boston_Police/status/325161511549009921/...](https://twitter.com/Boston_Police/status/325161511549009921/photo/1)

UPDATE 3:

Home video footage from a street in Watertown where the exchange of gunfire took place earlier in the night, during which Suspect 1 may have been killed.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSlRHJv1nnA>

UPDATE 4:

Photo of billboard displaying a missing person alert for Sunil Tripathi

[http://riehlworldview.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/04/missing...](http://riehlworldview.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/04/missing-bilboard-for-bad-guy.jpg)

<comment><USER57> UPDATE 6:

      08.49: The names Sunil or Sunny have been heard on the
      Boston police scanner tonight referring to Suspect No 2,
      the man who is still on the run. Sunil Tripathi, a
      philosophy major at Brown University has been missing for
      a month. Local press reports say that Boston police have
      identified him as a suspect.

      Mr Tripathi is described as a left-wing Marxist of
      Indian Brahmin descent, whose father is a successful
      software developer. His family set up a Twitter account
      and a Facebook page last month to help the search for
      him. Mr Tripathi was first identified as a suspect in a
      crowdsleuthing exercise on the Reddit website.

      The other suspect, who was wearing the black hat, has
      been named as Mike Mulugeta. He is thought to have died
      in hospital after a shoot-out with police.

      Their identities have not been officially confirmed.

Source:

[http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article374...](http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article3743697.ece)

<comment><USER60> "Brahmin"!? His caste is relevant, how, exactly? Only a British (or worse, Indian) newspaper would find the necessity to point out the caste of some person being tried by a public mob based on things heard on a police scanner.

<comment><USER61> I have never read an Indian newspaper making reference to someone's caste unless it was somewhat related to the story.

<comment><USER60> You are right - Indian newspapers usually refer to it only when it is at least tangentially relevant - eg. usually they'll refer to some politician's caste. I consider this to be just as bad because it continues to put caste front and center as a factor to be considered when evaluating a political.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Best Buy To Talk You Out Of Verizon iPhone (Which They Won't Have) - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/19/best-buy-verizon-iphone/ <comment><USER2> Color me shocked that Best Buy would try and get you to buy something they _do_ sell rather than something they _don't_ sell. Those greedy fucks.

<comment><USER3> Edit: Nevermind, my sarcasm detection clearly needs some work.

<comment><USER4> I think mrkurt was employing sarcasm.

<comment><USER3> Hrm... Upon a second reading I can see it now. I'm just so used to people's knee-jerk reactions that I failed to assume he might actually not be serious.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Apple will let you port Google Chrome extensions to Safari - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2020/06/25/apple-will-let-you-port-google-chrome-extensions-to-safari/ <comment><USER2> Clever. Let's them announce a new feature which is basically u locking access to the hard work done by others and further by putting a better user experience into how they privacy sandbox extensions they get to further highlight the the safety and privacy you get by sticking with apple products. All important brand position messages as Apple positions itself to be the future of where you should store your sensitive health data.</comment>


Groupon responds to superbowl ad criticism  - <AUTHOR> http://www.groupon.com/blog/cities/our-super-bowl-ads-and-how-were-helping-these-causes

<comment><USER2> The comments catch what Groupon missed. Worth more than the blog entry itself.</comment>


HipChat Acquires Blue Jimp and Jitsi.org - <AUTHOR> https://blog.hipchat.com/2015/04/21/hipchat-acquires-blue-jimp-jitsi-org/

<comment><USER2> The main blog post image is broken due to referencing extranet.atlassian.com.

> The best way to keep Jitsi innovative is keeping it open and in the hands of > those who created it in the first place: the open source community.

Jitsi has seemed pretty impressive each time I've seen it, and the developers seem to be pretty active in the related open standards communities, so I really hope Atlassian does a better job than other acquisitions and sticks to their pledge here to keep things open.</comment>


Ask HN: How much rent do you pay per month and where? - <AUTHOR> Would like to know how much my salary would be worth in that state. This site http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ gives absurd values unless its actually true.<p>I pay $2000 for 2bd 1.5bath apartment in Brookline, Boston MA <comment><USER2> 10000/month in NYC (Manhattan) for mortgage + common charges for two bedroom + home office in full–service doorman building.

<comment><USER3> What do you do that makes $10K/month seem like a reasonable cost of living?

<comment><USER4> It's not effectively $10K/month because mortgage interest is tax deductible and the percentage of the cost used for the home office can be deducted as a business expense. Also, he's building equity in his investment which he'll get back when he sells the apartment. Once the mortgage is paid off, he owns the unit and all that's left of the monthly expense is maintenance charges (and real estate tax).

Also, Manhattan is currently a pretty healthy real estate market, so he's likely to make a profit when he sells the apartment. So it's hard to compare this number to a simple rent payment.

<comment><USER2> Mortgage interest is deductible to a point, it starts to phase out at certain income levels, and if you're in alternative-minimum-tax land it's diminished even more.

R/E tax is also deductible.

We "extracted" enough from sales of two previous apartments to give us close to 65% equity in our current apartment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You could set this up as an anonymous google spreadsheet for people to add their information to, like the salary one that went around recently</comment>


Shopping Tips for Men - <AUTHOR> http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/shopping_tips_for_men/

<comment><USER2> This seems to be more indicative of bad relationships, where the shopper is imposing on their partner. This is especially true if platitudes and not opinions are requested. Selfish, selfish selfish. Couple's outfits are a good reason to shop together. Judging her work outfits, which you see for 15 minutes a day, are not.

But, for common ground most guys should read _Put This On_ and try to stay fashionable, even if it's Chucks, chinos and a decent t-shirt. (Comfortable to work in, too.) Purposeful clothes shopping is much more enjoyable than going to the local JC Penny's and buying 30 copies of the same, shitty outfit. This is especially true if you and your partner have at least one working hobby/moonlight in common, and would be seen together at an industry outing.

I don't know. I'm attracted to blunt, angry women who are self-confident, my opinion be damned.

</comment><comment><USER3> In total honesty, people have partners who do this? Really. REALLY?

Why not just say "I don't like helping you with shopping. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, and in addition, you don't need my help. You always know what to wear and how to look good, I'd just get in the way".

And/Or don't date co-dependent people who need you there for "emotional support" AT THE SHOPPING CENTER.

Man, you breeders are _crazy_ :P

</comment><comment><USER4> Part of me thinks, "Maybe if I send a link of this to my wife, she'll finally understand why I hate shopping so much." Then another part of my brain reaches over and smacks the first part upside the head and says, "Are you nuts? If she reads it then you won't be able to use that clever liver question to get out of a bind!"</comment>