The problem of game developers receiving abusive messages - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/the-cost-of-doing-business-c09cc5cc8728 <comment><USER2> Up until about five years ago, I've only ever wanted to create and share video games. After a couple years doing it independently and getting my first professional game job, gamer gate happened. It's absolutely terrifying to see the lengths at which people will go to make someone's life a living hell. Every industry friend was affected, and reacted mostly by reducing their online presence, and I've done the same. Some were targeted personally. A few left the industry.

It's hard to want to make games now. The best feeling in the world was watching someone on YouTube play something I'd made. It's different now. Part of it is fear of being targeted, but it's also made me think of why I would put so much effort into something that attracts so much vitriol. I know it's a minority of people, but games take months of hard work to create and these thoughts take a toll over time, especially on bad days.

The more personality a person puts into their game, the more they risk being targeted. It's depressing to have to hide self expression, reduce social media presence, and use pseudonyms when all I really want is to make games for others to have fun with.

<comment><USER3> As someone who heard and read about Gamer Gate, but not more, I'm genuinely curious: What exactly is it that GG did to people working in the industry? My understanding was that the two parties having a fight were female developers and game reviewers on one side and a horde of "young angry white males" on the other (at least if you simplify the whole thing enough).

And from this I understood that it was mostly the life of these females that was made a living hell. So, are you one of those female game developers, or did the mob turn against everyone creating games, regardless of gender?

I hope this doesn't come across stupid - it's just that it seems to be an extremely complex topic and I just want to understand it a bit more.

<comment><USER4> Going by memory here, since most of the search results about the topic are very... polarized.

The genesis of the problem, as with so many problems, is that two people were in a short term sexual relationship. The issue with that is the woman made video games, and the man reviewed video games. His review of her video game "Depression Quest" was glowing - a sentiment most people who played the game didn't feel was warranted. The relationship was uncovered, accusations started flying, and a mob was formed on both sides. Those mobs proceeded to do what mobs do - attack each other.

The biggest impact I saw was that people in the industry were not allowed to be neutral, so they just didn't comment. Why interact with the crowd when you're just going to be pilloried in a highly visible fashion by one side or the other?

<comment><USER5> GamerGate was orchestrated by misogynistic racists on 4chan's /pol/ board. They used "ethics in journalism" as a deliberate excuse to rile people up, and tricked a large crowd of gamers into buying that excuse and thus providing them with cover and additional power. Ultimately it was a disgusting and successful attack against women and people of color.

By repeating the excuse (that it was about a game review, when in fact it was an orchestrated attack, and the supposed review _does not exist_ ), you're perpetuating a mistake (providing cover to a small group of misogynistic racists) that caused a lot of harm. I doubt you did this intentionally, so I suggest you do some more research.

There is a fantastic YouTube series that goes into detail, including investigating the public record of the people behind GamerGate, here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8XgGhXkTQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8XgGhXkTQ)

If you can't watch the whole thing (although it's worth it), this part goes into the origins of GamerGate: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TrKkkVEhs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6TrKkkVEhs) .

<comment><USER4> Hmm. Seems you're correct regarding the review. I must have mistaken the Giant bomb review I read for it. The journalistic impropriety did not include a review, just positive press.

Whomever stirred the pot, honestly, doesn't matter in this context. In the end, both sides used the mobs to their own ends. Both sides were contemptible in the end. It wasn't the mysogynists who attacked Total Biscuit (not to mention his wife and children) over his commentary about the journalistic impropriety angle, who sent him death threats.

<comment><USER5> Your response here bothered me, and it took me a while to figure out why. Ultimately, I think it's the false equivalency ("both 'sides' did terrible things, so they're both equally at fault") and the lack of regret for your mistake.

If you don't see the problem here, I don't think I can convince you otherwise, but I couldn't let this stand unchallenged. It is _not okay_ to blow off a deliberate, well-planned, devastating attack against women and minorities. You spread misinformation that benefited the attackers. That was an understandable mistake. But then you doubled down on that mistake. The original mistake is understandable. The doubling down is not.

People suffered real harm as a result of this. We all have a responsibility as caring humans to do our part to prevent it from happening again. I'm not asking you to go out and volunteer, or send money, or anything hard. Just don't spread misinformation, and don't engage in false equivalencies that benefit aggressors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I had a long phone conversation recently with a game industry friend who had the misfortune of being involved in multiple games that became targets of abuse. I had asked him for advice about potentially making some youtube videos about game design, including f2p game design (which I have substantial expertise in).

He warned me that depending on the approach, even implying that I thought certain types of games or monetization weren't the worst thing since cancer could result in hate mail, doxxing, death threats to myself and my family, etc. He had been through that experience and wanted to warn me against it.

Despite being involved in some very popular f2p mobile games, the worst abuse I've had was someone sending me a DM on Reddit saying I should get cancer.

I don't really know what, if any, the solution here is. I've been able to ignore the worst of what I've taken because it's been pretty mild compared to what's possible. It makes me wonder - if I were the public face of a game that really, really pissed off the trolls, would I be able to emotionally handle the result? I have no idea and I don't want to find out.

<comment><USER7> You just need to not give a fuck. It works for online interaction and it sure work for other parts of life. Care about what you can influence, don't about things you have no control over.

Someone cut in front of you in traffic: good for them. Someone insults you: heh, must be their own insecurities showing.

I think the only threshold for online interaction would be people threatening violence against you. If they do, file a police report then don't sweat it anymore.

Learn to not care about things and you'll endure a lot less stress. Then your life will feel a lot better.

<comment><USER8> Apathy is not a healthy approach to life in general. Forcing yourself to feel "meh" about things you really did enjoy once is soul-crushing in itself.

<comment><USER9> I don't think @arkh is suggesting apathy, quite the opposite in fact. Enjoy your art and don't give the naysayers a second thought.

<comment><USER7> This. Try to see the good parts of things.

Someone is cursing you about your work? First, that's just words on a screen so you can close it to not see it. Two, this person bought your production so hey! your bank account feels better. And last you got a vivid reaction out of someone: isn't creating games and art goal to make people feel something? Sometime it is negative but I think the best works are those who you either love or hate. Not the bland ones.

Seeing some good in most things is not an easy mindset to get to. But you can start by doing it as a joke until it can become natural. "Another rainy day" -> Temperature are 0°C and it's good for the plants so let's enjoy those facts. I totaled my car -> I have an excuse to ask a ride-share with some colleagues I fancy until I get a new one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This sounds like a lot of industries I've worked in, most of which involve IT. I'm sort of amazed how many people think it's okay to hurl abuse at other people in general. Don't like a completely voluntary video game? Don't buy the next one and stop playing the game. Maybe submit some feedback on what is causing you not to continue playing and move on. I'm both a child and a parent and while there were a few years where I was will of spit and vinegar and mouth off at other people, I've never felt it okay to send the types of comments that some people think are acceptable (I've looked in case my memory was rose-colored).

What amazes me more are the people who bring this attitude into the real world. I've had my job threatened, co-workers physically threatened (I'm apparently somewhat imposing so I don't get physical threats often), screamed at, had someone shoot a nail gun at me...It never ceases to amaze me how people can have so little respect for themselves or others. Kindness literally costs you nothing, and yet it can often be so hard to find.

</comment><comment><USER11> The mistake is to take the users' comments at face value, IMHO. They are not that upset about a game; something else in their lives is painful for them and they are taking it out on you. They are unable to deal with their emotions otherwise. That perspective can help in a couple of ways:

First, you know it has nothing to do with you or your game; you are just an object, a mental construction, at which they unload their anger; they might as well be talking to the pin-up poster on their wall (or to the pixels which form an enemy on their screen). Second, if you realize these are troubled people who feel powerless; if you have some empathy for them; they lose their power over how you feel. Here's a recent story about the comedian Sarah Silverman taking that approach and going a step further, with amazing results:

[http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/blog/sarah-silverman-s-response- to...](http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/blog/sarah-silverman-s-response-to-a-twitter- troll-is-a-master-class-in-compassion-1.4471337)

Also, it may be important to ask why so many young males (if that's the demographic) have such emotional problems, why so many can't process their emotions effectively and feel so vulnerable. I think we sort of take it for granted that young males (and to a degree, all males) can't process emotions and act out, but I think that's a mistake.

<comment><USER12> I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a default positive correlation between angry or confrontational gamers (writing abuse or not) and games designed around having "stab your enemy in the face" as part of their marketing and gameplay loop.

That said, the article contains some other examples (like Terraria) which don't fit that mold.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I got a glimpse of this working on my open source Minecraft clone, and it's at least half of the reason that game is sitting on the backburner. Gamers can be a pretty entitled group.

I also see this in the rest of my open source work, to a lesser extent. On the whole I probably get slightly fewer "fuck you"s than I get "thank you"s.

<comment><USER14> > Gamers can be a pretty entitled group.

Just like sport fans, moviegoers, fooding enthusiasts or people who buy books. In every circle you'll have a tiny loud minority who behaves like crap, it has nothing to do with gaming. You'd think people who buy books have a better education and behavior? People like J. K. Rowling or Stephen King have had plenty of stalkers and death threats, King wrote plenty of books about on subject.

<comment><USER13> In my experience gamers are a clear outlier.

<comment><USER14> Compared to what? violent hooligans in football?

<comment><USER13> Other online communities. I haven't really met any violent holligans in football so I can't compare to that.

<comment><USER14> Because you think hooligans aren't being mean and hateful online as well? let's not even talk about political circles which have nothing to do with gaming. You are talking from you experience standpoint but you're wrong, there is way worse than gaming communities.

<comment><USER13> A sample can be simultaneously greater than the mean and less than the maximum.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This.

Seriously, I run a bunch of FREE websites and I'm amazed by the stuff that shows up in my inbox. When did it become ok to harass someone running a FREE website?

If you don't like it, hit the frigging back button. And get a life.

<comment><USER16> This reminds me of an article I read a long while back (I don't remember the title..) that basically argued that by lowering the barrier of entry to your content, be it a game, app, etc., you make it such that others have nothing to lose for slinging mud. IIRC the same article did a study on online free-to- play and subscription games and noticed that games with higher barrier of entry, be it with price or even a lottery system, tend to see more civility in their communities, since people have something to lose if they are banned.

It would be great if someone could link that article in or something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> "I want [something] and I want it now."

This is what I hear from reading most of those angry tweets/comments.

Sadly, sometimes they are simply shouting because the game is not what they were hyped about. Maybe we are over-hyping games to get pre-orders in? I remember a time when the first time I heard about a game was when it was actually on the store shelves (good ol' boxes). Now there are dev-blogs and the likes years before a game is actually going to release...

<comment><USER18> The thing is marketing a game does not justify death threats, rape threats, doxxing or even personal insults. Poor user reviews, not buying a game, refunds and civil complaints should be enough to signal that a game isn't good enough. If making a game to the best of your ability, marketing it, and not quite hitting the bar for a subset of gamers justifies abuse then I'd recommend developers stop making games. There are better job options that don't subject people to that level of abuse. If you made abusive comments toward startup founders because the MVP doesn't live up to the hype of the landing page on HN you'd get banned or at least heavily downvoted, I don't see why game developers should tolerate that kind of abuse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I guess it's not just game developers, I work with my team in finance sector on a customer portal and we also get almost similar level of feedback from some people... But we have millions of users. I like to think that at this scale we can't avoid to have some of those guys.

<comment><USER20> I was going to write something insightful but then realized that yeah, people are just being incredibly rude when they provide feedback in that manner, to the point that their comments are not useful as feedback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is just an ugly side of humanity that has always been there, but is magnified by the combination of anonymity, disenfranchisement, and ever more addicting Skinner-box style entertainment.

We are a tribal species; in the past this type of behavior would be socialized out of you or else you would be a recluse. You didn't have the opportunity to sit in your own filth and project your self-loathing onto anyone across the Internet.

As a species we're just not emotionally equipped to deal with the current reality.

<comment><USER22> That's a cop-out. This isn't genetic, this isn't universal, this is a cultural trend.

<comment><USER21> A cop-out? No, it's an explanation. How are you going to reverse the trend? First you have to understand the underlying factors. It's incredibly naive to think this type of impulse never existed before just because it's permanently recorded and visible for the first time.

<comment><USER22> Humans aren't feral, their patterns of behavior are dictated by culture, education, etc, regardless of "impulses". People may have impulses to hurt or steal from others, but those impulses can be controlled and the impacts of those impulses can be diminished on society. Socio-cultural norms and education teach people that there are other ways to get what you want than theft, for example, and provide strong discouragement against engaging in such "anti-social" behavior. On top of that there are legal proscriptions against such behavior. All of this adds together to massively reduce the level of murder, rape, and theft in civilized humans vs. hypothetical feral human populations.

And the same dynamics can occur with individuals hurling abuse online. Those individuals could experience consequences for their actions (from twitter, valve, potentially the criminal justice system in some cases, etc.) from institutions as well as from society as a whole. Telling a game developer "I will rape you!" should be an action that dramatically curtails the perpetrators career options and results in losing friends, but today it doesn't.

Sure, people hold dark impulses inside them routinely, everyone understands that. That doesn't mean they are uncontrollable. This is a recent phenomenon, which itself is proof enough that it is not due to some uncontrollable universal urge.

<comment><USER23> How do you hold people accountable without compromising anonymity, though? And if you compromise anonymity, how do you avoid a chilling effect on those who depend on it for e.g., political activism? Seems like a dilemma to me.

<comment><USER22> Anonymity isn't an issue for some of these things.

For example, when you're interacting in a customer service context on, say, steam, you are not anonymous. Valve can change its TOU to make it so that you forfeit all claims to redress if you use abuse during a customer service interaction, and can further scale that up to include additional consequences (banning you from participation in certain ways or from certain benefits).

Additionally, "in band" consequences don't have to compromise anonymity. On twitter or facebook, for example, you can have abuse reports that are verified result in different levels of account restriction. You can make it so that the account's posts are no longer visible in other people's timelines as replies, for example (e.g. they are only visible to people who specifically follow that user or when specific posts are linked to directly). You can restrict accounts in other ways and even block access to accounts for short periods of time. Or you can ban people forever. All of these techniques have been used for years and years to prevent abusive behavior, the only reason they haven't been used effectively against this particular sort of abuse is because of apathy on the part of most platform owners, but that can change easily.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Well, try to publish an academic paper, and prepare for abuse in the form of reviews. At some point you need to learn to just shrug it off and focus on your work. Same is true for making games, I guess.

<comment><USER25> Do reviews of academic papers typically come in the form of "Hello, FUCK YOU - people do not read this SJW paper, it is retarded and a piece of crap"?

<comment><USER24> Different words are used, but the meaning is sometimes the same

<comment><USER26> " _Hello, FUCK YOU_ " would be an _improvement_ over some of the the passive- aggressive backstabbing I've seen.

It's like, at least you'd know...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> What we need is to take a page from Uber and have user-side ratings along with the producer-side ratings. A forum like steam could let producers or peers downvote gamers and then producers could choose to not sell games to people whose ratings are too low.

<comment><USER28> Something tells me there may be an inherent danger to isolating these people further.

You may be on to something, but perhaps restricting sales is not the best use of user-ratings.

I've often wondered if weighing a producer-side rating against the user-side rating could work (e.g. a user with a low rating can give a 1 star review yet have little effect on the game rating).

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Slight aside, but:

> _Would you sign up for a job where you get screamed at all day, every day? > Why would you go through that, when there are a million other fields where > that doesn't happen?_

The amount of customer service rep/call center jobs we have answers this with a "Yes", I think.

(Not taking into account the reasons people sign up for those jobs though. Probably not because it's their passion...)

<comment><USER30> When I was younger there was a popular line of thinking that the typical highschool job in customer service was where people learned to grow up into the kind of people that wouldn't yell at customer service. It sounded like the kind of thing that could be true, but was certainly the kind of thing you want to be true if you have one of those jobs. I've recently been thinking it has merit.

-Having someone directly in my face yelling at me over a couple of dollars made it a practical necessity to cultivate in myself an industrial-strength version of "you can't control other people, you can only control how you react to them." And that includes calibrating your level of fear to the actual level of risk. Even if all you are is a wimpy teen somehow made shift lead, ya gotta look a scary motherfucker in the eyes and tell them "No," when the only thing you've got to defend yourself is "Get out or we're calling the cops."

-My sense of how to treat others is based on concepts of shared humanity. When someone is screaming at you, there ain't time or good reason to try and empathize with them. But you can't stoop to their level, either. So peg a bare minimum for behavior as a personal standard, and then try to live up to the standard. -- Consequently, I don't understand the trendy ideas on empathizing that posit I have to cultivate a personal connection before I can determine "oh yeah, it turns out I shouldn't be a prick to this person, either."

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm sure this is worse for game devs but I think it affects anybody that creates customer-facing apps. The culture of rudeness and entitlement among customers today is very deep rooted. It's one of several reasons why it's smarter to build B2B businesses.

</comment><comment><USER7> > Abuse is the cost of doing business.

Reading the article, that's the guy behind Firewatch. I think the problem is not his games but his social media use. I'd wager most of this abuse he received was after he DMCAed pewdiepie after pdp used the word nigga while playing. People don't like devs who have a "stream our game all you want it's free publicity for us" message when launching it and use spurious DMCA claims on people they don't like.

Maybe the problem are people who decided to make the video game industry woke and all about US centric politics. Or maybe the huge difference between the author and his father is "social" media and giving a damn about what is written there.

</comment><comment><USER32> I left the industry because of the entitled behaviour of the community.

</comment><comment><USER33> Do all game devs experience similar types of abuse, or only the devs of games with environments in which the developer's company is attempting to monetize the player as they move through the game?

For example-- there is some beautiful sidescroller game I've seen where the animation looks like old-school Fleischer studio cartoons. Do devs of games like that get abuse from players, too?

<comment><USER34> Yes - look at the tweets in the article. I've played Don't Starve Together and Terraria, and neither of them have any in-game monetization. Those are also both family-friendly games. Don't Starve has a cartoony art style, too.

I can't speak for the other games. Strangely, the tweets don't either. They're not like "I am angry about this particular feature", they're like <word salad of swear words>.

<comment><USER35> Terraria (178k followers) and Don't Starve (63k followers) get this stuff because they have the kind of playerbase size that makes people feel like the devs won't ever see their message anyhow. They tried to ask for stuff, or saw others try and didn't even see evidence that the devs saw the question. So they figure it's fine to just yell at the ocean.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Seems like most of the abuse could be avoided by leaving Twitter.

</comment><comment><USER37> i suppose a couple questions might cause some people to infer otherwise, so to be clear: it's not implying the behavior is "fine" or shouldn't be critically analysed.

ok. so, things like online death threats and other such things get talked about a lot, and i have two main questions:

a) what kind of conversion rate is there - that is, threats being acted upon (how many threats vs how many events)?

b) has there been any analysis that shows these threats are credible and should be considered as demonstrating legitimate danger?

(again, this isn't to meant to excuse such behavior.)

my question stems from the fact that there is a rather long standing "internet gaming culture" which provides a context for hyperbolic aggressive commentary and interpersonal behavior, that some people may not be familiar with. for example, for as long as i can remember (i started with quake 3 over modem) to lose a match was to 'get raped'. to go on a win streak was to be 'fucking raping everyone'.

my thinking is that the vast, overwhelming majority of 'death threats' are hyperbolic and aggressive, but also utterly throwaway comments void of danger. as a consequence, talking about real world fear and even actions (like moving house) doesn't really garner a sympathetic reaction from many in the internet gaming culture, because it (from their perspective) demonstrates either significant naivete and ignorance, or some kind of intellectual dishonesty (given the idea that the threats do not represent an actual danger).

</comment><comment><USER38> I have followed dreams that became unsatisfying. But I can tell you life can survive a dream. And enjoying life doesn't have to be difficult. I did do some indie game work but because of my own incompetence I could not make sense of the business. Fortunately I have gathered skills which had value elsewhere. And you can always have the satisfaction of knowing what the dream really was all about. Sadly most of us never even try.

</comment><comment><USER39> Isn't this just overstimulated people having their gratification loop interrupted? I guess gamers are more likely to be this way. Even the ones that aren't so shrill seem to enjoy watching others act it out for them on twitch.

</comment><comment><USER40> I can't help but wonder how much this is rooted in general distress out in the world. If you feel you can't control your life at all and a game is your escape, controlling that can take on an excess of importance.

</comment><comment><USER41> Four years after Gamergate, how can this be news to anyone?

</comment><comment><USER42> I don't understand what forces devs to participate directly in this public discourse. Barring those so small they can't hire someone to run interference, why precisely are you publicly interacting with your customers?

Anyone who works with the mass public, be they cashiers or physicians, knows damn well that the Public is terrible. Don't give them a hotline into your head.

<comment><USER43> Games have credits. Developers have Twitter accounts. Devs are excited about their work, share what they are working on. The devs are not seeking these interactions at all.

<comment><USER42> All of my patients know my name. It's on a badge, with a picture ID and all. This includes drug seekers, people looking for a suit, a handout, and just a general smattering of crazy folks. Yet they don't manage to find my fb, my Twitter, my LinkedIn.

Part of this is that devs plug deeply into social media, personally and professionally, and have few (or no) firewalls between the two.

Unless you -have- to be the public face of a product, your professional media interactions shouldn't be accessible to the masses. Your private definitely shouldn't be. They need to be heavily firewalled. If I can trivially message the lead dev of my favorite game, he's done something wrong. If I can reach him on a private account he can't just burn or ignore, he's done a lot wrong.

The internet hosts the majority of people on earth: it's a very, very long tail of crazy, poorly socialized, immature, etc. There is no changing that if you are accessible to seven billion people, some tiny percent of that will amount to an overwhelming amount of shit.

The answer is jealously guarding your privacy and communications channels, which isn't something I've seen in these discussions.

Im not trying to victim blame here. I just don't see as fruitful lamenting something that boils down to "dealing with the public en masse sucks." It does, and it will:

<comment><USER43> Think about scale. A good indie game might have hundreds of thousands or millions of players. Is that the same order of magnitude of patients you see?

<comment><USER42> No, of course it isn't.

But then, I'm pseudonymous or anonymous everywhere, and do my level best to keep my pseudonyms unrelated to one another across multiple platforms.

As opposed to letting my patients trivially connect my real name to my various social media channels.

<comment><USER44> > No, of course it isn't.

Then maybe it's time to put down the keyboard and listen to the experiences of the people who have found some level of success.

When you've shipped a title that's moderately successful you're more then welcome to come back here and tell us how were doing it all wrong. Until then I find it hard to listen to the advice of someone who can't empathize with what is happening here.

<comment><USER45> Comments like this are equivalent to saying you cannot criticize a football players performance because you've never won a championship. It's illogical on many levels.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is just something that happens when you put something out into the world. I had a project I worked on reviewed by a major newspaper as, "At best obscure, at worst ridiculous." That (temporarily) stung worse than "CUNT CUNT CUNT CUNT" ever would.

<comment><USER47> The difference is that the newspaper doesn't actively send you their review hundreds of times per hour, or try to discover your personal information and intimidate you with insinuations of what they could do to you directly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Yawn. A lot of professions deal with this. I work in high frequency trading, and i get told I'm the Devil by people multiple times a week including major publications. But i love what i do and nobodys unintelligent abuse is going to change that.

<comment><USER49> You get told to "hang yourself" and told you should "die screaming" or just have someone yelling "cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt" at you multiple times a week?

I used to work for a hedge fund. Mostly people just didn't understand it and were skeptical, but phrased it in a way that gave me an out: "I don't understand how it provides any value to society," or things like that. Nobody ever harassed me online with just "cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt".

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> > The big issue here is that when you speak to players (and I have, a lot), a > large number of them would agree with this statement "There are times when > it's reasonable to send personal abuse to a developer," although they differ > on when those times are.

Seems disingenuous. Without qualifying what those times are, it's logical that almost anyone would agree with that sentiment on some level. Did the developer take a drug-fueled sex tourism jaunt with your Kickstarter donation? Yeah that person probably deserves a little abuse.

> And what will happen when the best established developers and most talented > up-and-comers decide that it's not?

I think that gaming is probably the last industry that will suffer from something like this. There's always going to be a glut of people that want to work on games/in gaming.

I don't think this editorial really _says_ anything. Some people on the Internet are loud assholes. Game developers put themselves on the Internet. Ergo, some people on the Internet are going to be loud assholes to game developers.

You can find someone complaining about anything:

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23applesucks&src=typd](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23applesucks&src=typd)

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nycsucks&src=typd](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23nycsucks&src=typd)

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23berniesucks&src=typd](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23berniesucks&src=typd)

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23catssuck&src=typd](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23catssuck&src=typd)

[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23rainbowssuck&src=typd](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23rainbowssuck&src=typd)

This has been a problem for decades, and probably ages before that:

[https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19](https://www.penny- arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19)

Loud, angry, vocal minorities tend to drown out the majority. If you can't ignore that, you'll never succeed.

</comment><comment><USER51> I've seen a few indie developers actively antagonize so called gamers.

I've seen abusive companies like EA get rightfully called out.

So Im skeptical of the depth of the claims, but I believe there are a few crazies.

I've ran a few foreign tax information websites, and I got extraordinary death threats very graphic and very detailed.

I think the internet really allows the mentally ill to scream for the attention they desperately want.

<comment><USER6> Do you think the type of abuse that EA received was appropriate?

The answer is: Absolutely not. Remember when Mass Effect: Andromeda came out and the facial animation system was broken? Some enterprising players looked through the game credits, found a woman they thought was responsible for said animations, and personally harassed her about it.

If you think this abuse is limited to complaining about loot boxes, you're wrong; it isn't.</comment></comment>


Mathematicians Urge Colleagues To Refuse To Work For The NSA  - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/06/05/mathematicians-urge-colleagues-to-refuse-to-work-for-the-nsa/ <comment><USER2> I don't understand why a real mathematician would want to work for the NSA. Suppose you had some amazing insight into a problem. Your work would almost certainly be classified, and you would be forbidden from sharing your achievements with the rest of the world. Worse, someone else could reinvent that same idea taking credit for it.

A beautiful equation or elegantly simple proof can only be realized when shared with the world. I would hope that a real mathematician would realize this before deciding to work for an intelligence agency.</comment>


Ask HN: How do I start an analytics consulting company? - <AUTHOR> My background is in business intelligence and analytics. I've worked at both large corporations and small companies.
However, I'm itching to start an analytics consulting company and am wondering how do I begin? First, is analytics consulting even in demand? I have decent programming skills and thought about starting a web development agency but it seems like there's a ton of people out there already doing it.
Any ideas on how to begin or get started? <comment><USER2> There is definitely some demand for consulting, but it depends on a lot of factors.

Caveat: I work at an analytics company, and have interacted with lots of consultants and agencies.

Agencies are by far more common than individual freelance consultants.

The freelance consultants I've interacted with are hyper focused on some specific niche like Google Analytics and/or Adwords.

All the niche focused people tend to have niche certifications, like GA or Omniture. These certifications are good if you only want to target specific customers/tools, but worse than that, in my experience people with these certifications refuse to work outside of the box they are trained in.

Freelance people tend to take a different approach of being the jack-of-all- trades who makes all things better. Improve SEO, improve landing page conversion, improve retention etc... using lots of tools and being quantitative.

I do not know how they market themselves to others, but the few I've interacted with have pretty solid blogs and have built a corpus of what appears to be knowledge of the field.

To external people looking to hire a freelancer this probably looks pretty good.

So, depending on which route you want to go, focused on some specific thing (whether it's the tool, or the vertical), or broader "make everything good" approach, you'll want to do different things.

Your best bet is to find a friend/colleague who needs this service, and offer it to them at a very low rate to let you test the waters, and to validate you. Once you have this, you an start building case studies and showcasing how your work has helped others.

<comment><AUTHOR> For the agencies that you guys engage with, what do you hire them for?

Thanks for your great ideas. I love what you guys are doing at Heap Analytics and personally, I think it's a genius product. The problems are something I face on a daily basis with our current analytics setup at work.

<comment><USER2> We don't hire them. They approach us. At the end of the day, they charge their clients a premium on top of our sticker price. If they bring enough business in, we'll offer a discount on our sticker price to increase their margins.

As of today, that is about a 15% discount, if you are using us, let me know, I'm more than happy to work with you on pricing to make sure you and your clients get the best value. (I'm email@example.com) – thanks for the kind words! Feel free to ping me if you want to chat further.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Step 1 is to find a client. Talk to the large and small companies you've worked for, and see if there are any large problems that they haven't been able to solve.

You only need 1 client to get started, and you can use them to springboard you to more. The demand doesn't matter if you can't find one client.

Do this first, and then worry about client 2 after you get client 1.</comment>


I have 23 keybase.io invites emails in the comments if you want em - <AUTHOR> I have 23 keybase.io invites emails in the comments if you want em. <comment><USER2> That would be great.

I've been in line for a couple of years...

mhm5000 [[a]] gmail [[dot]] com

</comment><comment><USER3> I would appreciate one if you still have, thanks in advance.

\u0063\u0069\u0078\u0074\u006f\u0072\u0064\u0073 [at] gmail.com

</comment><comment><USER4> I'd like to have one as well. Thanks in advance. nayaeunho (at) hotmail.com

</comment><comment><USER5> Looks there are some invites left. Can you pleas send me one to my yahoo.es email: inigo_vlog

Thanks

</comment><comment><USER6> Would love to have one :) Please send it to shubham.bhawsinka (at) gmail.com

<comment><AUTHOR> sent

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Howdy sir! Would you mind sharing one with soulus (at) gmail.com ? Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER8> I would like one, if possible: firstname.lastname@example.com Thanks!

<comment><USER9> sent :)

<comment><USER8> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Hi Tigew, can you share one with firstname.lastname@example.com? Thanks.

<comment><USER9> received. (don't waste your invitation on my email)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Please sent one to connor (at) froggy.com.au thanks

<comment><AUTHOR> Sent, 19 left

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Please send one to frank1214 (at) gmail.com

</comment><comment><USER12> Send me to x0rm3r(at)area3.org. Thanks

<comment><AUTHOR> sent, 20 left

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Hello,

Send 1 to satanslittlehelper (AT) operamail.com

<comment><AUTHOR> sent, 22 Left.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hi mate: email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER15> would absolutely love one, you're the man, me [at] hayespotter.com

</comment><comment><USER16> cool! Can you send one to pabloacuna88 (gmail) please? Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER17> hello, do you mind sending one to borkopolo (at] gmail . com

</comment><comment><USER18> would love one please and thank you :) firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER19> hey, please forward an invite to kb (at) mackjoel.com

<comment><AUTHOR> sent, 21 left.

<comment><USER19> thx!!!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> one for me too,

shiva [at] shivakaushal.me</comment>


Show HN: Goal achievement just got easy with Dittit.com (feedback wanted) - <AUTHOR>

Hi, we're dittit.com, a startup that enables people to achieve any personal goal by automating accountability, incentives and disincentives to modify the economics of daily behavior.
The way it works is you publicly declare your goal and get friends/family to sponsor you financially. You also commit to a weekly set of commitments to get to your goal.  Then you submit proofs using our mobile app or any 3rd party tracking app (Runkeeper for example) which are certified by other members of the dittit community.
When you miss a commitment we get your friends and family to help you out via Twitter and Facebook.  And, to provide that little extra Pavlovian sting, we donate some of your money to charity.  When you achieve your goal, the money you raise from sponsors also is donated to charity.  (yes we plan to raise lots of money for charity)
Anyway, check out our site, dittit.com.  We're in private beta now so we'd love to get people's thoughts and feedback as we finalize our v1 (mvp).  In particular we're interested in knowing what sorts of goals you'd use Dittit for, what the most successful motivators are in your life, and generic thoughts on our particular solution.
Thanks!
The Dittit Team <comment><USER2> Very nice to see this come out of Startupbootcamp in Madrid.

Congratulations to the team. And a shout out to Luis, Alex and Jose for making Madrid an entrepreneur friendly city.

Keep it up guys!

</comment><comment><USER3> Checking out the site right now! (although you'd think with a username like mine I wouldn't need to, HA!)

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm going to use Dittit.com to help me write blogposts for the next six weeks

</comment><comment><USER5> Great work guys! Definitely worth check it! I definitely need it to help me focus with either Aikido or my own startup ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey abarrera, using for your own startup is a great idea, and one that we have been using @ dittit for the last month. Have to eat your own dog food!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Amazing team from Startupbootcamp Madrid 2011, I might be biased but they are definitely worth checking out ;)

</comment><comment><USER7> one more from startupbootcamp .. Go Go Go</comment>


Ask HN: Possible ways to transition into AI? - <AUTHOR> I've become very interested in working on AI and am trying to find out the best way to transition into it (or maybe decide I shouldn't).
Background: I'm single in my low 20s, studied enough CS to get a degree in it at a top-ish school in the US, though I don't think I'm that particularly gifted technically (no math/cs competition background, was ~average among my classmates; just smart enough to ace the SATs). I have a full-time commitment now in a completely different field (which I was drawn to more than what I imagined a software engineering job to realistically be like), but recently, I've lost complete interest in it because I've somehow convinced myself that AI is really the only problem worth working on.
Questions: 1) Having no evidence of technical brilliance / experience at a famous tech company, is it even possible for me to end up working in a meaningful AI job? Every AI firm I've heard of only hires truly exceptionally talented people (IMO winners etc), or at least people who were "tracked" into AI (top phd program in related field).
2) If it is possible, what is the optimal way to transition? Do I try to work on side projects outside of my full-time commitment, or should I quit first? What do I have to achieve on my own for people to take me seriously? I feel like taking some MOOC and showing off some toy project is somehow insufficient. <comment><USER2> Start. Just start. Pick a MOOC and do one. Then do another.

Not because they'll make you look good, but because you'll learn that "AI" can "sound" fascinating, but it's really quite a specialised field and honestly, not everyone who "likes coding" will automatically enjoy it.

Get your skills up by diving into some learning. As you go deeper, interesting side projects WILL come up that will allow you to demonstrate expertise to employers. Or help you discover that AI isn't really your thing.</comment>


Show HN: Mapping 11M points with Tile38 – Mapbox/Geonames - <AUTHOR> https://geonames.tile38.com <comment><USER3> I was having a conversation with a coworker and was looking for exactly what Tile38 is, telling them the amazing kinds of realtime-GIS things available out there, and I remember seeing this a while back but didn't remember the name. Thanks for jogging my memory.

I'd love to see a writeup on how you efficiently did this (I'm assuming protobufs?). I'm constantly telling one of my clients (gov) that it's no longer a big deal to show even 10,000 points on a map thanks to Mapbox GL etc in a performant way, without relying on GeoJSON. Now I can show this proof of concept.

<comment><USER4> I have used Tile38 for a couple of internal demo experiments this year and hoping to push the projects into production next year (budget allowing).

If you are looking for a realtime-GIS with geofencing support out of the box - it is an ideal match.

Docs really are great. Its very easy to get quick demos up and use. The code base is a joy to work with. It is a really really good project.

Would also love to see a write up of the 11 million points with Tile 38 - <USER2> is a really nice demo.

<comment><USER3> Good to hear! I'll definitely play with it when I have some free time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The tile38 docs ([https://github.com/tidwall/tile38](https://github.com/tidwall/tile38)) are really good.

Lots of animated GIFs combined with great structured text that really helps quickly explain all the complex things that a geospatial index can do.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> well, points for this

      This package provides an in-memory R-Tree implementation for Go, useful as a
      spatial data structure.
      It has support for 1-20 dimensions, and can store and search multidimensions
      interchangably in the same tree.

      Authors
      </comment><comment>-
      * 1983 Original algorithm and test code by Antonin Guttman and Michael
        Stonebraker, UC Berkely
      * 1994 ANCI C ported from original test code by Melinda Green
      * 1995 Sphere volume fix for degeneracy problem submitted by Paul Brook
      * 2004 Templated C++ port by Greg Douglas
      * 2016 Go port by Josh Baker

      License
      </comment><comment>-
      RTree source code is available under the MIT License.

</comment><comment><USER7> I've been using Tile38 for over a year now. It is amazing.

</comment><comment><USER8> This is super impressive. Do you have a write up on the datasets used and the process you went through?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. It was a team effort. We're working on a medium article. The dataset is Geonames.

<comment><USER9> Can't wait to read this. Well done

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is super impressive! Nice work.</comment>


How NLP can help cure cancer? [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://people.csail.mit.edu/regina/talks/CNLP.pdf <comment><USER2> So, I worked at a startup in the early 00s trying to do exactly this — detect disease trends from medical chart data. We had an advantage in that all the data came from a nationalized health care system, so it was relatively consistent.

We were using slightly different NLP techniques (and were actually a leader in the NLP space), but ultimately NLP wasn't really our restriction: we learned that we couldn't trust the doctors to enter the data consistently. The data came in like 8 different versions of HL7 per hospital, and we had to fix our parsers every time some department decided to upgrade their records systems. The notes contained so much jargon (that was different in every department and often using the same acronyms with different meanings in context) that we ended up pivoting the tech to another industry.

Medical chart data sucks. HL7 sucks. Pretty much everything about doing deep learning on medical data sucks. Everything about working and selling in the hospital EMR space sucks. There _might_ be something there, but have fun building a profitable company around it.

<comment><USER3> I did that data curation and analysis in the mid 2000s, before it was all hip and well paid, and the CS group employed data curators because you need and experimented human being, to analyze the data in a peer-reviewed paper, and compare it to the authors' conclusion. Half the time it doesn't.

Finding reproducible or reproduced experiments happens at an even lower rate.

Then, context matter, and we know very little about each of our cell, even less about each one behaves in an ensemble.

So no amount of NLP will cure cancer, currently. It's a simple garbage-in 101 case. It will hopefully change...

However, there is a good chance that traditional approaches to science will have worked well enough for most cancers, and NLP will just be a tool to validate after the fact, build comprehensive database and assist with incremental update to a treatment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Great work. At Lawrence Berkeley National Lab in the biosciences (formerly life sciences) division, headed by Mina Bissell[1], one of the leading researchers of breast cancer, we developed NLP-based vector space modeling (embedding) in 2002 to augment genomic research in breast cancer, the extracellular matrix and aging. That was about 2 years after the first human genome was sequenced. The Lab patented[2] some of our methods and it helped pave the way for approaches like word2vec and a few others. There's a lot of great work yet to be in this area and we continue to make slow and steady progress defined by generating new insights, hypotheses and sometimes discoveries using approaches in NLP/NLU. We've recently been applying vector space modeling in NLU to LET radiation research (DNA damage repair) associated to space biosciences[3] which is exciting for extending and protecting human lifespan for space travel. Interdisciplinary aspects are key.

[1] [https://www2.lbl.gov/LBL- Programs/lifesciences/BissellLab/ma...](https://www2.lbl.gov/LBL- Programs/lifesciences/BissellLab/main.html)

[2] [http://www.google.com/patents/US7987191](http://www.google.com/patents/US7987191)

[3] [https://www.nasa.gov/ames/research/space-biosciences/for- res...](https://www.nasa.gov/ames/research/space-biosciences/for-researchers)

</comment><comment><USER5> This looks very interesting, I wonder if anyone has a link to the video version of these talk slides.

I couldn't find it, but here is the same professor, Regina Barzilay, on the same topic (but a different talk).

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=424zoKmpZvg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=424zoKmpZvg)

</comment><comment><USER6> Slide 12/13 talk about how these areas are "devoid of Computer Scientists". In traditional areas like Biology and Chemistry, there is an acceptance that Computer Science is "not a science". They still view CS as IT (service / software). There are amazing broad applications of advanced computational techniques like Natural Language Processing, Probabilistic Learning Approach and Machine Learning within the space but if there's no acceptance of it, we will hinder progress.

<comment><USER7> For what it's worth, I've been working for a few years in CS + bio at the NIH, and while demand for CS as IT exists, there's also now a pretty strong and broad demand for computer scientists for scientific research. Between all of our institutes there must be a couple dozen labs with projects in the areas you mention. One of the biggest things holding us back is just finding enough people with a CS background and interest in bio problems! From what I gather at conferences, there's a lot of work being done by many groups in the CS/bio/biostatistics space, and likely more to come.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I heard the author's keynote speech at NAACL a few years ago, basically the material in this paper. I found it inspirational, especially when mixed in her own story on fighting cancer and disappointments in how much potentially useful data is "siloed." An AI system is proposed that can read and understand all research, lab notes, etc., etc. This may be only achieved in the distant future, but I believe we will get there.

</comment><comment><USER9> I would like to see the meningof the acronyms in the title. Natural language processing ? Nonlinear programming? Neuro-linguistic programming?

<comment><USER10> If there were a Neuro-Linguistic Programming Language, its definitive textbook would be called "The Structure and Interpretation of Magic".

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/964154.The_Structure_of_...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/964154.The_Structure_of_Magic_I)

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43713.Structure_and_Inte...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43713.Structure_and_Interpretation_of_Computer_Programs)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The title made me afraid it was about Neuro-Linguistic Programming (a New Age "psycho-religion") instead of Natural Language Processing:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro- linguistic_programming#A...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro- linguistic_programming#Alternative_medicine)

Alternative medicine

NLP has been promoted with claims it can be used to treat a variety of diseases including Parkinson's disease, HIV/AIDS and cancer.[62] Such claims have no supporting medical evidence.[62] People who use NLP as a form of treatment risk serious adverse health consequences as it can delay the provision of effective medical care.[62]

[62] Russell J; Rovere A, eds. (2009). "Neuro-linguistic programming". American Cancer Society Complete Guide to Complementary and Alternative Cancer Therapies (2nd ed.). American Cancer Society. pp. 120–122. ISBN 9780944235713.

<comment><USER11> Thats sad. NLP started off as a more scientific take on Hypnosis, as california required certification for hypno, but none for other, identical processes, hence the name change. However the 'inventors' left it in the hands of people who made it a sketchy MLM pyramid of trainers trainings. There IS some good insight, but most of it ia just rehashed lessons from Milton H Erickson retold by Richard Bandler. Then came the pickup artist trend, also latching on to similar techniques. That said, most 'Neuro Linguistic Programming' published in the last 20 years is mostly crap.

<comment><USER10> Sad they were eventually exposed and debunked? Nope. I'm just sad it took so long.

The inventors, Richard Bandler and John Grinder, were greedy bickering charlatans, both just trying to make a buck from the very start. It was pure crap from day one.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro- linguistic_programming#I...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro- linguistic_programming#Intellectual_property_disputes)

>On this matter Stollznow (2010)[18] comments, "[i]ronically, Bandler and Grinder feuded in the 1980s over trademark and theory disputes. Tellingly, none of their myriad of NLP models, pillars, and principles helped these founders to resolve their personal and professional conflicts."

>[...] In 2009, a British television presenter was able to register his pet cat as a member of the British Board of Neuro Linguistic Programming (BBNLP), which subsequently claimed that it existed only to provide benefits to its members and not to certify credentials.

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8303126.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8303126.stm)

[https://neurobollocks.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/neuro- linguis...](https://neurobollocks.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/neuro-linguistic- programming-the-1970s-neurobollocks-that-just-refuses-to-die/)

>Despite being nearly 40 years old, and a ridiculous, facile hodge-podge of concepts from psychology, philosophy, linguistics and new-age twaddle with absolutely no support from any reputable sources, amazingly, NLP is still very much alive and kicking. Bandler has kept on developing (and ruthlessly trademarking) a load of new techniques including 'Design Human Engineering™', or 'Charisma Enhancement™'. A lot of his recent work also appears to include hypnosis. His website is essentially one big advertisement for his books, CDs and speaking gigs; and there are literally thousands of individuals, businesses, and 'institutes' offering NLP training for a bewildering variety of purposes and people. Bandler has even latterly jumped on the 'Brain training' trend with a new company called 'QDreams' ('Quantum brain training!'; 'Success at the speed of thought!' FFS…). Searching on Twitter turns up many, many people earnestly tweeting away about the benefits of NLP. Why is it so persistent? Partly this is because of Bandler's clear talent for slick marketing, re-invention and dedication to innovative bull-shittery, and partly because NLP was never really clearly defined in the first place, which makes it highly malleable and adaptable to any pseudo-scientific new-age trends that come along. Despite a hiccup in the mid-90s (when Bandler tried to sue Grinder for ninety million dollars) it seems to be as popular as ever, and to be attracting new adherents all the time.

>In my opinion the real stroke of genius in NLP, and perhaps the reason why it's been so successful, is simply the name. These days we're used to putting the 'neuro-' prefix in front of everything, but back in the '70s, this was way ahead of its time. Obviously there's nothing remotely 'neuro' about it, though. Plus the 'programming' bit has a deliciously Orwellian appeal; promising the potential to effect change in oneself or others, if you just know the right techniques.

[http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html](http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html)

>"For example, I believe it was very useful that neither one of us were qualified in the field we first went after - psychology and in particular, its therapeutic application; this being one of the conditions which Kuhn identified in his historical study of paradigm shifts. Who knows what Bandler was thinking?" -John Grinder

>postscript: On a more cheerful note, Bandler has sued Grinder for millions of dollars. Apparently, the two great communicators and paradigm innovators couldn't follow their own advice or perhaps they are modeling their behavior after so many other great Americans who have found that the most lucrative way to communicate is by suing someone with deep pockets. NLP is big on metaphors and I doubt whether this nasty lawsuit is the kind of metaphor they want to be remembered by. Is Bandler's action of putting a trademark on half a dozen expressions a sign of a man who is simply protecting the integrity of NLP or is it a sign of a greedy megalomaniac?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> What could also help cure cancer is to have anonymized medical records on Kaggle. However, I'm pessimistic that this will ever happen.

</comment><comment><USER13> I've wondered - what if Facebook for example found a typing pattern that predicted something like Alzheimers in 95% of cases, but couldn't tell any users because of GDPR, or GDPR prevented these typing patterns from being analyzed for this purpose in the first place?

</comment><comment><USER14> I would personally expect how NLP can help detect cancer as being more rewarding - and cynically speaking that Obama quote in the presentation about America being the country to cure cancer, hell America it seems can't even cure measels. Maybe I'm just having a bad day though.</comment>


Pandora Suit May Upend Century-Old Royalty Plan - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/14/business/media/pandora-suit-may-upend-century-old-royalty-plan.html

<comment><USER2> What I don't understand is why the music companies license their entire catalogs to the likes of Spotify and Google All Access, which is a direct replacement for buying music, but want to drive true Internet Radio like Pandora and indie stations out of business. It makes no sense.

<comment><USER3> I went to a talk at Pandora couple weeks ago and Tim Westergren said that 90% of Americans still use (traditional) radio every week. I doubt music companies are trying to get the indie stations to go out of business -- they go out of business because they don't play the hits (thus it's harder to gain a huge user base + monetize).

<comment><USER4> CD101 (CD1025) in Columbus is as indie as they come. Independently owned and operated, playing indie and alt rock. They are doing awesome and are a true jewel for the city. If indie radio can make it in Ohio why are so many other stations having so much trouble?

<comment><USER3> I'm not saying correlation == causation, however, there are something like 55k college students who are probably more of the target demographic for that particular genre making up a big portion of the listening audience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > record companies ... only ... to publishers

Aren't those two the same thing?

<comment><USER6> Often, but not always.

A record company can be just the label the music is marketed under. Or it can be both the label and the publisher of the music (with the publisher typically holding the copyrights).

For example, in 1995 Jay-Z created Roc-A-Fella Records as his label, and then Priority handled distribution for him (and later Def Jam).

Sometimes large stars will own a record company that holds their music rights, while having someone like Warner for distribution purposes.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best place to buy and sell sites & domains? - <AUTHOR>

Hello HN,
I was wondering what is the best place that you have experience with for buying and selling websites?
I'm aware of 'flippa', but don't have any experience with it, but there must be more out there.
Bad experiences, good experiences ? <comment><USER2> My first Flippa auction is ending soon...I definitely won't use it again anytime soon. The fees are just too high, and I think fraud is rampant. It's $19 to list, but without any of the upgrades, my auction didn't get any traffic. The prices for the upgrades are $29 for a home page listing, $5-$15 for borders, screenshots, highlighting, or bold, $50 to tweet it to @Flippa followers. You could easily spend $150 just to list your site, in addition to a 5% success fee if it actually sells.

I suspect that some of the sales on Flippa are the same people selling the same sites to each other to inflate the price. I've seen sever suspicious cases that look like accomplice 1 sells a site to accomplice 2 with accomplices 3-5 bidding up the auction. Accomplice 2 then does the same thing a few months later to sell to 3, and so on. The site (originally worthless), sells for $2000, $3000, $4000 among the scammers before being sold to a sucker for $5000.

In a lot of cases, it looks like people are buying seasoned domains with high page rank and putting up a quickie site. These are likely to lose all of their page rank as soon as the domain is transfered, so be careful.

Definitely do your homework before buying or selling on any of these domain/site flipping sites.

</comment><comment><USER3> flippa.com, do your research on the site. sedo.com (for domain buy-sell), buydomains (for domain buy), snapnames (for domain buy),</comment>


The Anti-Mac Interface - <AUTHOR> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/anti-mac-interface/ <comment><USER2> From 1996.

<comment><AUTHOR> Whoa.. but still seems relevant as the modern desktop interface hasn't changed</comment></comment>


Doordash and Thousands of Other Companies Passively Send Your Data to Facebook - <AUTHOR> https://onezero.medium.com/doordash-and-thousands-of-other-companies-passively-send-your-data-to-facebook-4ebe851e710 <comment><USER2> This, incidentally, is why I strongly resist installing apps onto my phone. Because once you let an app run on your phone, you really don't know what it's doing. At least with a browser, it's _somewhat_ sandboxed/limited. I don't have nearly as much confidence that I've correctly twiddled whatever settings I needed to, to limit data sharing for an app, and even if I did, I don't have any confidence the company didn't find some way to get around those settings.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I mean, not only did deleting the FB iOS app years ago actually mess up my phone and necessitate a full system restore (super sketchy IMO), I'm pretty suspicious of how hard some sites pressure you into installing their mobile app (Reddit is a definite offender here). Considering, no, actually just looking at this one search result on a page in the browser I'm already in is _definitely easier and more convenient_, it is not "best in the app!!111"

<comment><USER4> Reddit is SO irritating with it's constant push to have you download their app. There's nothing on the site that requires it—Reddit is just listed content of text, video, images, and links. They also limit what you can post from their mobile site which I believe is just further pressure to get you into their unnecessary app.

But my god, they are SO pushy.

<comment><USER5> If you're on iOS, try Apollo. It's a third party Reddit app and it's outstanding. Top-notch user experience and an engaged and friendly developer.

More on topic: I'm curious why we tolerate these horrible experiences on the web. Technically savvy people can't be the only ones infuriated by these dark patterns, yet I don't often see my non-tech friends complaining about it.

I also don't understanding the motive on Reddit's part. Let's broadly categorize users into two buckets: those who actively don't want to use the app, and those that do.

In most cases a native app experience "feels" better than a web app experience, so your average user is probably happy to see the "please use our app instead" popup. Those users will probably click it on the first try, and never have to deal with it again on the web.

The remainder who specifically want to use the browser version are doing so probably for technical reasons: don't want to be tracked, etc. Those people are never going to click to download the app, no matter how many times Reddit nags at them to do it. So why continue to force-feed the popup? All it's doing is creating ill will from the people who see it every time, and those people are arguably the more technically savvy and know it's intentionally being annoying. It's just making technical people dislike the platform and the company.

I guess I'm missing where the benefit of trying to force people into the app is. Is the disdain from techies worth the tiny amount of people who initially click no and then eventually click yes?

<comment><USER6> I'd also suggest Baconreader premium.

Its fast and lightweight. A superb third party reddit client.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> >When I made the purchase, I expected that my little indulgence would remain between me and Doordash

This is where they went wrong, as unfortunate as it is. Aside from the massive amount of third party analytics and tracking and so on, there's many more out- of-band ways that others will find out about what they did, for example by purchasing credit card transaction history (Google, many other institutions), reading and automatically parsing your receipts sent via email (Google), making generalizations about your Internet activity (phone/Internet provider) and many others.

<comment><USER8> > reading and automatically parsing your receipts sent via email (Google)

I love it when companies exclude this info from email and make me log in to see the details, but then run a bunch of trackers themselves.

I wonder if the tracking companies pay more if you exclude the info from emails, which I generally find annoying.

<comment><USER9> I thought google stopped mining emails with the advent of GDPR

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Imagine how many of these companies send 'EVENT' data to Facebook on the backend as opposed to directly from your client. Just like any illegal activity, corporate data privacy violations will keep happening but be pushed further into the shadows.

</comment><comment><USER11> Does anyone have any clue what Doordash is paid by Facebook to do this? (Or other sites?)

Is it a straight-up cash transaction, or is it a discount Facebook gives Doordash on its ad spend, or something else?

Or is it just a side effect of using Facebook Analytics, that most companies aren't even aware that they're sharing data that gets used for advertising too? So they're getting free analytics software but that's it?

Just very curious what the business deal structure here is.

<comment><USER12> DoorDash and others pay Facebook to acquire users and drive specific customer behaviors. This data sharing allows them to optimize and measure the results of their marketing campaigns.

This data is used to create a feedback loop for ML models powering FB's ad auction and delivery. Marketing campaigns all have objectives that can be monitored via this data. FB will adapt auction dynamics to maximize the value for all parties, and this data helps FB properly set the auction bids or artificially inflate/deflate the price for individual users based on the predicted likelihood of a campaign objective being met.

It's used for campaign measurement - DoorDash reports an action in their app, and FB says "that person saw or clicked on a FB ad before taking that action. give us credit for it!" Facebook is effectively grading their own homework here and ignores other marketing campaigns that may have contributed to the action, but there is a deeper science around interpreting this measurement (marketing mix modeling) and third-parties who can help validate.

The data can also be used to create Facebook campaign audiences. "Show this promotion to customers who ordered from DoorDash 4 times last month." "Show this promotion to those customers' FB friends who do not have the app installed." "Show this promotion to users who have installed the app, but haven't placed an order yet."

So no money is being exchanged for the data, but both parties are able to maximize their partnership value from it.

<comment><USER13> This is correct. Nothing overtly nefarious is happening here (above the baseline level of telling FB who your customers are in order to figure out how much ROI your campaign had).

> Facebook is effectively grading their own homework here and ignores other > marketing campaigns that may have contributed to the action

One thing I'd add is that FB is _still_ incentivized to accurately attribute actions. Over-attribution (and thus over-estimation of ROI) would give FB more spend in the short term, but would hurt them in the long term by causing auction inefficiencies.

This is the reason direct action campaigns on Google are perceived to be low(er) value: last click attribution disproportionately favors AdWords.

<comment><USER14> Just reading this and the parent post it is still amazing to me how much effort we expend to attempt to force a sale/advertise. We're even calling it "pay to acquire users", you don't earn your users anymore, you buy them. Entire, very wealthy, industries exist around this one concept that users don't want but businesses just love. Ranting yes, but interesting still.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I blame bad developers for this. Marketers will always pull this shit, but a conscientious developer will ensure the browser's "Do Not Track" setting is respected.

Take note, developers; it's as simple as this:

        if (!navigator.doNotTrack) { // Tracking code }

<comment><USER16> Yeah, except enough websites poisoned that particular well for this to not be a thing anymore.

<comment><USER2> The takeaway I got from DNT is: "It doesn't work, and it just makes it easier to fingerprint you." So I used to do it, but now I don't bother and turn/leave it off.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Half of HN personally responsible for doing exactly this kind of thing for a living, shifting in their chair uncomfortably... I umm... just doing my job...

<comment><USER15> That's not really an excuse. A developer might be asked to implement Facebook tracking code, but a conscientious developer will ensure the browser's "Do Not Track" setting is respected.

It's as simple as:

        if (!navigator.doNotTrack) { // Tracking code }

<comment><USER18> It's not this simple when managements explicitly asks you not to do this, and takes it as sabotage if you still do it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> "To keep reading this story, get the free app or log in" (Facebook is an option). Oh the irony

<comment><USER20> Clear cookies and cache for medium.com . And anything *.medium.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I could imagine a browser plugin which tells you if a company shares data with facebook (and other ad networks) before you sign up, make a purchase, etc. It could have crowdsourced data based upon these kinds of requests.

I've wanted for some time to see a couple of variations of things like the Fair Tax Mark ([https://fairtaxmark.net/](https://fairtaxmark.net/) \- a cert that a company isn't using tax evasion tactics), especially one for privacy. FTM is trademarked and therefore able to police its logo's usage, a Privacy Mark could do the same, and enhance the market for privacy respecting services.

Maybe it is time to start on efforts like these. Who'd be interested?

</comment><comment><USER22> Blown away by how much they're collecting? Please. We've known about Facebook's fetish for collecting everything they possibly can for years.

What should be shocking is how many people dismiss such information because "I have nothing to hide," or "but Facebook connects me with friends and family."

Saying that drugs make you feel good doesn't make it less bad that the pushers want you to get addicted.

<comment><USER23> > Blown away by how much they're collecting? Please. We've known about > Facebook's fetish for collecting everything they possibly can for years.

Fair, everyone has an approximate idea of how much FB is sucking down about you, but I still get surprised now and then by some of the stuff they do. Like I've always avoided using FB login for anything for obvious reasons, but I never knew that just the act of including a facebook SDK in your app was enough to phone home to that company every time I use it.

<comment><USER24> FYI if you browse to any web page that integrates with FB web SDK, it does the same and has been publicly known for the.

<comment><USER23> I have uBlock, Facebook Container, and pihole set up so I _should_ be good for any FB tracking on my desktop (heavy emphasis on the word "should" there), but my phone always finds ways to surprise me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Maybe a stupid question, but is this sort of data still shared (with Facebook) if you're not a Facebook user...?

<comment><USER26> Yes. They send names, e-mails, phone numbers and sometimes more information regardless of whether you have an account or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Was Doordash one of the apps that broke due to Facebook's SDK failure recently?

<comment><USER28> Evidently, they were: [https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/7/21250689/facebook- sdk-bug-...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/7/21250689/facebook-sdk-bug-ios- app-crash-apple-spotify-venmo-tiktok-tinder)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> One more reason to use nextdns on iOS or adaway/nextdns on Android.

<comment><USER30> This won't work if data are shared from the back end, though.

<comment><USER29> True. However, it blocks everything clientside which I better than nothing at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> "The Age of Privacy Is Over" \- Zuckerberg [1] Privacy is now a commodity, whether is a valuable commodity is up to you.

[1] [https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/external/readwri...](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/external/readwriteweb/2010/01/10/10readwriteweb- facebooks-zuckerberg-says-the-age-of-privac-82963.html)

<comment><USER32> Is it though ?

Privacy has relied on the good-nature of service-providers for so long, that we don't know half the things that shady operators were upto (fingerprinting etc.).

Apple appears to pushing industry in a direction that's going to change things for the better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> DoorDash and others pay Facebook to acquire users and drive specific customer behaviors. This data sharing allows them to optimize and measure the results of their marketing campaigns. This data is used to create a feedback loop for ML models powering FB's ad auction and delivery. Marketing campaigns all have objectives that can be monitored via this data. FB will adapt auction dynamics to maximize the value for all parties, and this data helps FB properly set the auction bids or artificially inflate/deflate the price for individual users based on the predicted likelihood of a campaign objective being met.

It's used for campaign measurement - DoorDash reports an action in their app, and FB says "that person saw or clicked on a FB ad before taking that action. give us credit for it!" Facebook is effectively grading their own homework here and ignores other marketing campaigns that may have contributed to the action, but there is a deeper science around interpreting this measurement (marketing mix modeling) and third-parties who can help validate.

The data can also be used to create Facebook campaign audiences. "Show this promotion to customers who ordered from DoorDash 4 times last month." "Show this promotion to those customers' FB friends who do not have the app installed." "Show this promotion to users who have installed the app, but haven't placed an order yet."

So no money is being exchanged for the data, but both parties are able to maximize their partnership value from it.

</comment><comment><USER33> Coincidentally Sleep Cycle iOS app crashed once (can't remember ever crashing before from over 5 years of using it almost every day/night) within the approximate 3 hour time frame with other major apps crashing caused by Facebook SDK.

</comment><comment><USER32> How does facebook accomplish this ? Third-party cookies ? Facebook can't be using this anymore now that Safari (and soon Firefox) are enforcing strict rules regarding tracker cookies.

<comment><USER20> Doordash sends it to facebook from their own servers. You can't control it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I have to ask, what is in this for Doordash, exactly? What incentive does Facebook give for this stuff?

<comment><USER34> Money. What else?

<comment><USER21> I suppose really I was asking about the mechanism by which one turns such things as a record of a purchase of bubble tea into money.

<comment><USER34> Step 1: Build a website that sells things. Step 2: Sell the data about those transactions to anyone and everyone willing to buy it.

After that, who cares what is done with it? Best not think about those things lest it bother your conscious.

Your question probably is more along the lines of why would someone want to buy that data? You add that info to the buyer's enormous trove of data profile. This person bought an Apple device = they have lots of disposable income (send them ads on other superfluous crap). This person bought a baby crib = send this person lots of adds about diapers, formula, toys, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> How about Firefox's Facebook Container? Does it stop this.

<comment><USER21> No, some of the data could be sent via the company's back end.

<comment><USER15> It could be, but in this case it's not, and thankfully the majority of these event integrations are dont via the front-end (via JavaScript) and as such can be blocked using something like DuckDuckGo Privacy Essentials, Privacy Badger, uMatrix etc.

<comment><USER36> For now. Somebody's going to come up with a library that proxies those requests through the first party's site or CDN, and privacy badger / umatrix won't be able to distinguish them from regular traffic.

The reason they don't do it yet is it's more expensive to host that traffic. The good news is, I don't think enough people will ever use privacy extensions to ever make it profitable for the DoorDashes of the world to go this far.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Reasons not to use Uber - <AUTHOR> https://stallman.org/uber.html <comment><USER2> He's not wrong, but why oh why must he use the term 'Guber'? It's childish & unprofessional to call those one disagrees with names.</comment>


Krispy Kreme tells student to stop donut reselling service in Minnesota - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/krispy-kreme-tells-student-to-stop-donut-reselling-service-in-minnesota/ <comment><USER2> Is there anything that could've been done to actually stop him if he didn't comply short of refusing to sell to him at the stores he visited?</comment>


Show HN:A mount like web app for Dropbox, box & GDrive - <AUTHOR> https://www.addfs.com/addfs/page/welcome

<comment><USER2> Looks interesting, It would be great to get a description of what the app does and what the benefits are...

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your comment here is what the app does:

addfs.com is inspired by the mount command in Unix OS. Just as mount command enables the ability of accessing multiple external devices using the same API i.e. Unix File System, addfs.com enables users to access multiple cloud storage (Box, Dropbox and Google Drive) through the same interface (HTML and Rest).

<comment><USER2> Totally understood, seems like there must have been a lot of backend / technical work to get this far - did it come from a personal need/itch?

As you are asking for permission to access to people's personal / private files I think it's really important that the site comes across as very professional so that potential users feel they can trust the site with connecting the different services. Not sure if you are explicitely asking for feedback and ideas but this definitely the area I would work on - creating a polished feel, particularly on the landing page.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion. It is done in two weeks by of us. So a lot can be improved. This is an app that came from a personal need. The need was to see where my files are in one view. Also, we were seeing that just for backing up we are uploading same file twice in two different storage (like Dropbox and GDrive).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nice app. Would like to be able to add multiple google drive and box accounts

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point. It's already in our todo list will do it.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Who do you use for Microtasks in multiple languages? - <AUTHOR>

I need to source some data that is in multiple different languages.<p>We tried MTurk but the lack of bilingual workers meant our requests had a 90%+ failure rate. <comment><USER2> I've given this about 45 seconds thought, in the spirit of an interesting problem that's not my problem.

If I had this problem, one thing I would try would be to find language schools or teachers in the target language, located in your current country (for ease of logistics). For languages that can't be helped in your country, I would look for English schools or teachers (or whatever your target language is, if not English), in countries that use those missing languages. The more developed the country the better.

No clue on how to set payment, but I guess that depends in part on whether/how much you expect to make from your project, or more vaguely how important your project is to you.</comment>


Microsoft files patent for switching visuals on the fly in game remakes - <AUTHOR> http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=18&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=(20130627.PD.%20AND%20Microsoft.AS.)&OS=PD/20130627%20AND%20AN/Microsoft&RS=(PD/20130627%20AND%20AN/Microsoft)

<comment><USER2> Surely any first person shooter with a "map" mode would count as prior art? DOOM springs to mind.</comment>