Commenting, community deterioration, and Hacker News - <AUTHOR> http://jseliger.com/2012/01/15/commenting-community-deterioration-and-hacker-news/ <comment><USER3> I hadn't looked at the comments on the story about the girl who died till now. I am so embarrassed for this community. I feel like this is the worst I've ever seen people behave on this site.

Here's some general advice: if you find yourself beginning a comment on a thread about someone who has just died with a disclaimer of the form "I hate to be that guy" or "I hate to write this," just don't say it.

<comment><USER4> I'm really very sorry to hear this.

When I joined HN I decided to do an experiment. On reddit and slashdot, I go under a pseudonym except when I need to make an announcement. But on HN I always go by my own name. The result is dramatic: I'm much more careful and considerate on HN. It's a clear verification of Penny Arcade's famous theory (<http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/>).

I think that the elimination of anonymity is ultimately the only thing which can keep HN from the inevitable slide toward 4chan that all comment sites are on.

<comment><USER5> One thing a lack of anonymity forces you to do is to present your entire feelings about a story, instead of the one point that you feel is missing or needs correction. When people present points in isolation, it's easy to get the wrong impression about how they feel.

I didn't comment in the thread under discussion, but if I felt there was one _point_ that needed to be added to the original story, it was the one made by many posters, roughly, "This smells like glurge, and when people are mourning for an inspiring little girl, it's common sense not to take what they say about her at face value." Of course that wouldn't reflect my whole reaction as a human being.

And that's the difference between reacting as a non-anonymous human being, where you are careful to present your _whole_ feelings about a topic, and reacting as a member of a message board, where you're like to dismiss most of what you think and feel as commonplace and not worth mentioning.

Like any problem in communication, it's a problem of readers as well as writers. Reading a message from "asdf1234" or "prgrmrd00d4u" (not real names AFAIK) and reading it as representative of a human being's feelings doesn't make any sense, but it's irresistible for a lot of people. If the nerds on Slashdot and HN can't resist parsing comments that way, I think it's time to give up and accept that as human beings we can only see each other as whole human beings and not merely as contributors to a conversation. So the burden of solving this communication problem is on the writers to act like whole human beings.

The primary psychological resistance -- and believe me, I do rebel against being "human" on a discussion board with every bit of my being -- comes from the fact that most of us would prefer to sound more like scientists than like politicians. Scientists say, "Here is my tiny marginal contribution." Politicians say, "This is who I am." Geeks roll their eyes when a politician answering a question about tax policy in a debate spends all of his allotted time talking about how much he loves his children and then caps it off with half a sentence stating his position on the issue. We hate that and don't want to be like that. We want to hear how he differs from his opponents. We don't want to hear everything he has in common with everyone else. We want the _diff_.

Our humanity is what we have in common, exactly what is excluded when we present ourselves as a diff. If you read the original discussion and read every comment as a diff, then you don't see comments by inhuman people. You see whole human beings whose common humanity was redacted by the diff filter running between their brains and their keyboards.

Maybe the need to relax that diff filter a little bit so we all sound like human beings needs to be part of a FAQ somewhere....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is just the type of blog post that we don't need on HN. People said some mean things in that thread, they basically all got downvoted and the top comment is one admonishing them (so do we need it to be dug up again by this article?). Isn't that the comment system working well? Isn't that the proof of where the balance in the community lies? It's a forum open to anyone, not some elite club; if it were a invite only real-name club the voting would hardly be necessary. If it gets to the point of reddit, where ugly things (often disguised as or put inside jokes) are _upvoted_ , then there'd be a point. But it's not at that point and this article is just moral high horsing, performing moral purity in front of an audience.

I see one annoying meme comment per HN session (so maybe 20 comment threads/2-300 comments), and that's only when I choose to highlight the down- voted text myself usually. In an open pseudonymous/anonymous forum that's a pretty decent signal-to-noise ratio. Use the voting system, ban repeat offenders, keep calm and carry on.

<comment><USER7> I think it's just a matter of numbers. HN links have, on average, always had relatively few comments, so growth is more obvious, even if there were no other difference but numbers. The comment counts number in the dozens to the low hundreds - reading a typical full comment thread doesn't take long.

So if HN doubled in users over the last N months, then even if 95% of the comments are non-abusive, that means the story that used to get 20 comments and have 1 abusive comments now gets 40 comments and 2 abusive comments. And when it comes to mean, shitty stuff like this, 2 seems like a lot more than 1. And that's with 95% good-guys. When a bigger story happens and gets 240 comments, at 95% positive comments, that's 12 worthless or mean or needlessly sarcastic comments. Ugh.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> There is only one possible way to solve this problem that has a shot at working and I'm developing/testing it as quickly as I can.

It requires a combination of crowdsourcing and machine learning (NLP is cool, but optional).

It is part rating, voting, tagging, reputation, recommendation and more.

It sounds complicated, it isnt for users (~2 clicks from ~10% of readers) but is for me to build (3rd week with rails, so relative).

It is mostly still theory at this point but the math checks out and user tests have exceeded expectations but are very early stage.

If you've read this and think I'm crazy, you're right (best to accept it).

If you think I'm naive, it's a possibility that's kept me up many nights over the past year.

If you are interested in learning more on the off chance I'm right, you can reach me at (Mat . Tyndall at gmail).

I am in San Francisco working on this full time after dropping out from grad school.

I will tell you in excruciating detail in person or via Skype how it works and why.

I have not slept very much in the past week so I have no idea if posting this is a good idea but I doubt I'll get even 5 votes or any takers but thanks for reading.

<comment><USER9> I must admit you've made me a bit curious, though I have a feeling that whatever it is you're proposing will probably just go straight over my head anyway.

Since you're in SF though, have you thought about holding a small group discussion about it over at noisebridge sometime? People there are always so insightful, friendly and willing to help, I'm thinking that holding a think- tank at a place like that might help you get the sort of 'back-and-forth' feedback it seems you're looking for.

<comment><USER8> As for the prototype going over your head, first order it looks pretty simple, second, third and fourth, ... Hey, even I'm not sure I've mapped out all the possible dynamics but the possibility is unquestionably there.

Noisebridge is cool, hung out there a few times. I'm super busy now but maybe in a week or two though I am a sucker for coffee chats (hint hint). Basically I suck at writing and would rather connect through any other medium.

Also to add a few details, I'm doing this as a startup (Tagbax, don't mind the landing page, I'm really not trying to drive traffic yet). Community comment moderation isn't necessarily my first choice to apply the tech $ wise (I really ought to drop by disqus one of these days), but it was designed specifically for user-generated content.

<comment><USER10> Before you lose any more nights losing sleep about this idea you have and its third or fourth iteration, maybe you should just release the idea in its original form and see how people react. I'm sure your idea is great, but I worry that it's a perfect solution to an imperfect userbase...meaning people value worthless, soundbite comments more than well thought out responses.

It's kinda like how people complain about how politics are only about soundbites. Sure, it's great to argue that among friends, but who really spends the time understanding the facts about every issue a candidate debates?

<comment><USER8> The solution is to align the interest of the individual with the group. I've run this past hundreds of people, it's pretty solid as theory but coefficients matter so it's gotta be tested.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I have an unfounded theory that SOPA has acted as a tipping point in the trickling in of redditors looking for answers. SOPA is a big deal for the Internet and its communities but I find the discussions on those threads particularly shallow (moreso I think than most political-leaning threads here). Obviously the discussion in the mentioned thread above was far more shallow and outright mean, but I think those are the new extremes in this new environment.

I bring this up because I also have a theory on how to handle it. Temporarily restrict the number of political and hot-topic stories in HN through coordinated flagging. I realize this may be controversial (even borderline xenophobic), but I think it would dissuade those looking for a home here who don't want to adhere to the guidelines. If the hot-ness of the material on the front page decreased for a while, I think it would sufficiently bore those looking for spicy discussions until this SOPA topic fades.

[Disclaimer: I regularly comment on SOPA threads]

</comment><comment><USER12> I believe the primary cause of comment degeneration is celebrity. Which is to say the more 'popular' something is the more likely there will be people saying things just to have said something that they are sure someone else has read.

When I was competing on BattleBots I was amazed at how it magnified people's immaturity in their efforts to 'be on TV'. That really made me stop and look at the folks around me on the other teams, and at the show, and there was a very large difference between people who didn't care that they were possibly going to be on TV, and those who _mostly_ cared that they were possibly on TV.

I tend to think of it as the 'celebrity' effect where someone gets their gratification from others noticing them. They troll popular newsgroups (back in the day), they make outrageous comments on community web sites, they seem to be trying desperately to prove somehow, someone, will know they exist. There is a lot of anger there too.

So they come places like here at HN and they comment poorly. They are particularly vocal around topics for which there are no definitive ways of measuring correctness, topics that are more emotion than reason. They are emboldened by anonymity.

Mostly they seem to want to be heard, to know that someone heard them, and ideally to be acknowledged as being heard.

Keeping them isolated, in their brokenness, makes for a better experience the community. But it also makes the broken ones more bitter and angry. I cannot see a way, in an anonymous, or psuedo-anonymous community with little face to face contact, to bring them through their insecurity and into a better place.

It is a problem worth solving though.

</comment><comment><USER13> HN is still the only place where I'll often read the comments first, because they're very likely more valuable than the article. I'd rather have it than my RSS reader.

Having said that, there is some room for anti-jerk improvements. Maybe very high-karma users can downvote further than the general minimum, or they get a special "really, don't do this" double-down-arrow to use in special occasions.

Sadly, people can accumulate pretty high points just because they post articles every hour or two. Therefore, maybe extra superpowers have to be invite-only.

</comment><comment><USER14> HN used to have a common response to one-liners, that was not a counter-attack or put-down, but a gentle challenge that invites and guides:

      Can you elaborate?

<comment><USER15> Interesting- in spirit, though I suppose the danger in having a "standard" response is that by using it consistently in that particular context you're shifting its meaning over time to something like "You're being lame. Did you know that?". Probably better than "standard response" as a phrase, would be a standard response being calm socratic irony- a response that requires some thought and substance on the part of the writer, rather than just a quick "can you elaborate" boxed one liner that becomes a cargo cult.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This story really provoked poor reactions on Slashdot, Hacker News and other supposedly "meritocracy"-oriented communities.

I don't have the evidence to support this, but my educated guess is that a proportion of it is driven by the fact that it was a Pakistani (and presumably Muslim) girl.

The meme pool for Pakistan and Muslims in general is driven by the terrorism / fear narrative; masking one's prejudice and engage in a self-satisfactory public bashing is easy when we also have a competing meme (Microsoft as borg) that can be used to mask the ugly aspects of it.

The other alternative (that people really do hate Microsoft so much that they would make these comments about a dead child) is so childish that I can't bring myself to believe it. It would be morally equivalent to.. well, cheering for people dying without health care. IE: A small group of people so wrapped in a narrative that they can't bring themselves to see how abhorrent their beliefs have become to the majority around them. Are those people us?

<comment><USER11> Pure speculation: I don't get the sense of racism at all. I think the age was the provoking factor. A younger girl who was able to accomplish something (Microsoft Certified Professional) and become noteworthy in a site filled with people (and businesses) trying to become noteworthy. Jealousy.

<comment><USER17> Don't label people "jealous" or some other negative label based on pure speculation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Hacker News has its good days and bad days. It also is going to evolve as the world of technology evolves. For some, that means it gets worse. For others, it gets better.

There will always be people that think it used to be better, because it's easier to remember the good feelings than the bad. This happens on every online community all over the entire Internet and it's been happening since the Internet started.

My only advice for solving the problem is to stop feeding the trolls. Dextorious obviously is trying to get a rise out of people. Ignore it and it goes away. Anything else is just adding fuel to the fire.

</comment><comment><USER19> One site that I think deals with this problem quite well is Metafilter. The comments are full of thoughtful and well reasoned discussions between the readers. Sure, there are problems: sometimes someone posts something that's mean spirited, or there's a few too many one liners in the comments thread, but, on the whole, these problems are rare.

In fact, the quality of the comments are so high that there's even an Ask Metafilter sub-section, where readers post, often very personal, questions and do so without fear of the kind of reaction they'll get.

What's most interesting about the Metafilter model is that there's no up- or down-voting, only favouriting.

So how do they ensure the quality of the comments? Well, to become a member you have to pay a one off $5 charge. It's not much, so almost everyone can afford it, but it seems to be enough to discourage drive-by comments or anyone who's not serious about contributing respectfully and substantively.

There's also the possibility for posts and comments to be deleted, and for an account to be banned completely if someone fails to follow the guidelines. I don't think this happens often.

<http://www.metafilter.com/about.mefi> <http://www.metafilter.com/guidelines.mefi> <http://www.metafilter.com/newuser.mefi>

<comment><USER20> As a MeFite: even the favouriting isn't necessary. It can polarise discussions and turn them into a back and forth where each side tries to get higher scores. I'm hiding those, and idly wish they hadn't been introduced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm jumping in a little late to this discussion, but I'm sort of required to comment here.

First off, as of early last year, I noted [1] that there is in fact quantitative evidence that HN is deteriorating in terms of positivity. I really need to re-run that analysis and bring it up to date, because I believe that we will see a sharp dip in the last 9 months. Between SOPA, Jobs' death, and all the other calamity that's happened, I certainly imagine it is getting darker here lately.

Secondly, I've put forward a few attempts to combat this. One approach is to change the way the karma system works [2], so that it rewards people for consistently being upvoted instead of the sort of lightning-bolt comments that tend to yield an exponential or maybe even bimodal distribution.

Another approach is to detect and flag anyone who is frequently rewarding malicious comments [3]. The system I put forth could be done either by manual flagging or implicitly by looking at co-occurrences. It was originally designed for articles, but as I noted in the post, it is trivial to adapt it to comments.

Now, in all these cases, the articles were on the front page and a lively discussion ensued. Yet nothing. Ever. Changes.

PG explicitly said he was "considering" the honeypot approach. I don't know if he's actually implemented it, since it wouldn't be visible to non-admins. I will guess that, since he's a busy guy and we still have these discussions periodically, he has not. Fine.

Why would you expect things to change course then? Or if you didn't, why are you all acting surprised now?

A site growing at super-linear speed is going to be very prone to these affects. If you do not put forth an effort to combat the influx of lower- quality comments, then you will see your site slip away.

[1] [http://blog.effectcheck.com/2011/05/31/do-social-news- sites-...](http://blog.effectcheck.com/2011/05/31/do-social-news-sites- deteriorate/)

[2] [http://www.nashcoding.com/2011/08/23/how-karma-should-be- mea...](http://www.nashcoding.com/2011/08/23/how-karma-should-be-measured/)

[3] [http://www.nashcoding.com/2011/10/28/hackernews-needs- honeyp...](http://www.nashcoding.com/2011/10/28/hackernews-needs-honeypots/)

<comment><USER22> I think there may be a relatively simple solution to the problem: filter the comments so that the comments of low-karma commenters initially only appear to themselves and _high-karma readers._ As they get upvoted, they gradually appear to lower and lower karma readers. Maybe make them initially visible to the contributor of the post or comment they are responding to as well.

This would create a self-organizing system that would rob trolls of their audience (high-karma readers would likely downvote them without response) while still encouraging newbies to post.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'll get buried for this, but I don't see HN as a community. To me reddit seems to be able to foster a sense of community with meetups, fund raisers, secret santa etc. HN is just a link aggregator with comments.

<comment><USER24> I think you are right that community is the core issue. I don't think reddit is really a community though, there are certainly some communities that communicate using reddit, and the site does engage in 'participation' activities, but I would guess that the majority of the interaction they create ends up being shallow (on the other hand, I'm sure at least some people have made new friends and such...).

I don't really see how any reasonably open group of several thousand people can ever interact as a community (and I wouldn't be surprised if the limit is in the hundreds, e.g. Dunbar's number).

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I would call myself a long time lurker on HN and have recently started commenting on stories. There's no real reason why I started, I think I just finally felt like it.

That said, I have been reading the comments for some time and I think the quality has changed when it comes to items that crack the front page. Beyond the first 30-40 items I think the discussion has remained far more useful than not. That's not to say that discussions worsen as stories move up, I think the volume tends to increase which invariably brings less helpful comments. This is not hard and fast, just my anecdotal observation.

</comment><comment><USER26> I want to be perfectly clear: I'm a relative newcomer here. If you want to stop reading on account of that, go ahead. I won't accuse HN of being reddit or digg. But I do want to give my perspective as someone on the fence about staying "active."

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, because I had to make a decision as to whether or not to be a part of this "community." Aside from some speech- and-debate oriented forums in high school, I've stayed away from online communities. They just don't seem to have high quality discussions, even at places where tech thrives, like xkcd. I suppose I'm lucky to have a job where I get to work with a lot of stimulating and highly intelligent people, with whom I can have conversations that last several days, so maybe my perspective is somewhat anomalous, but I doubt it. In any case, I stumbled upon paulgraham.com a few months ago, and what I enjoyed most in his essays was the reserved, focused quality, so I figured a forum/news site run by him might be interesting. I've also had an interest in open/accessible science via web- based applications, and becoming a good enough coder to write some of what I do on a Cray machine at work [1]. I am not a hacker. I learned Visual Basic in high school, and can get around basic web design/javascript/rails tutorials and stat scripting languages we use at work like R and Matlab, install Ubuntu and use Vim daily. This seemed like a good place to learn better techniques.

I've learned a lot, and I won't go on about that. Many of the comments have been thoughtful and informative, particularly the ones that point to relevant places to get more information (I've noticed user Joakal does this a lot [2]), or the ones that disagree substantively.

But the most frustrating kind of comment I've encountered on this site isn't meanness, or blatant stupidity, but the Hard-Not-To-UpVote kind. Most people can tell a troll, and most trolls get down-voted to the point of white-out. Most stupid one-line jokes get voted to the bottom of the page as well, or just ignored. Today's discussion[3] was extremely embarrassing, so much so that if I'd seen that discussion first I might never have joined the site, but the meanness was not among the most up-voted comments, and even though there were a some annoying individuals who felt the need to prove how unremarkable someone was, most were rather positive. And the rest of the community rallied around upvoting jaquesm's comment, and downvoting the inappropriate ones to oblivion (though not soon enough).

One unfortunate thing I've noticed: a lot of the very popular comments are sometimes of a "fluffy" quality. I'm a "scientist" and I get to sift through a lot of hype on a daily basis; what I appreciate most are focused rational arguments, even if I ultimately disagree; I don't like fluff, even if I've used it from time to time, and certainly I've fallen for it. I remember reading a few months ago a great passage in a PG essay:

 _The most dangerous thing for the frontpage is stuff that's too easy to upvote. If someone proves a new theorem, it takes some work by the reader to decide whether or not to upvote it. An amusing cartoon takes less. A rant with a rallying cry as the title takes zero, because people vote it up without even reading it.

Hence what I call the Fluff Principle: on a user-voted news site, the links that are easiest to judge will take over unless you take specific measures to prevent it._[4]

I think this applies to some comments I see here (maybe some comments I've made). Quickly shot off, and easy to judge, the ones that make you feel guilty not upticking. I don't know what to do about it - I have upvoted some comments of dubious quality because it's hard not to, but what I appreciate most is substantive disagreement. My favorite things to upvote are comments that disagree with me, even if my mind isn't ultimately changed. Comments I can't stand (and feel guilty for making at times) are the ones that say "great point!" or offer an emotionally charged appeal with nothing interesting or unique. I can't say my perspective is unique here, but I do think it's an unsolved problem.

PG actually submitted an Ask HN several months ago regarding what you mention[5]. I'm curious if anything came of that. I don't know how to make it work. In real life, when people I have discussions with consistently detract from the value, they get left out to some extent, or if I'm in a group where fluffy comments are prioritized, I leave, and eat lunch with other people. I have no idea how to make this work on the internet. This would be sad, because I don't know anywhere else on the internet that has this level of discussion.

[1] <http://beagle.ci.uchicago.edu/> [3] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3466925> [2] [http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=joakal](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=joakal) [4] <http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html> [5] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2403696>

<comment><USER27> I've found similar thing. What surprised and frustrated me sometime is my "shallow" one liner got a lot more upvotes than my longer, more thoughtful comments. It seems people have extreme short attention span and won't bother to read the longer ones.

<comment><USER28> I've noticed this too. Unfortunately, my two most upvoted comments recently have been of the "throwaway" variety. Not mean, not trollish, but a couple of easy-to-agree with quickies that I banged off on the bus ride to work. One[1], perhaps legitimately upvoted so that the response would be more visible, was a simple statement that the submission was a couple years old and it would be interesting to see some newer data. The other[2] was a cheap, throwaway anti- SOPA line.

The danger here is that the easy-to-upvote throwaway comments become a self- fulfilling prophecy. Like it or not, karma is social validation. A long, thought-out reply that gets no upvotes is somewhat depressing; it makes you think that, even at your most thoughtful, your thoughts are unappreciated. Contrast that with a cheap and easy line that gets 40 points, and the social feedback is clear: your considered opinion isn't valued, but your cheap lines are.

It makes me think that the karma system itself might be fatally flawed for its lack of scalability. What works for a small, mostly homogenous community breaks when that community becomes larger and more diverse. We can deny it all we like, but I'm sure most people feel pretty good when they log on and see their karma significantly higher than it was the last time they checked. It's an ego boost, and few people are immune to enjoying that. When playing to the lowest common denominator gives you that fix of social validation, and a more thoughtful comment doesn't, it's pretty strong positive reinforcement for the less-desirable behaviour.

I'm not sure how to combat this in a scalable manner. It's difficult to think of examples of community-moderated forums maintaining quality in the face of rapid expansion. My previous suggestions of weighting the votes of those who consistently upvote quality comments higher than those of people who upvote fluff has met with little traction, and I can see some pretty big potential weaknesses there, myself.

In reviewing this comment, however, I have had a thought of something that seems ridiculously trivial, but might just work: pg has stated before his belief that comment length is a relatively good indicator of quality. I notice, however, that the comment box is relatively tiny. It makes a long, thought-out post appear, _prima facie_ , no more substantive than a 3-liner. I would be interested to see what the result of making the comment box significantly larger would be. Would people, upon seeing that much empty space surrounding a throwaway comment, be likely to reconsider posting it? Are there easy cues like this that can be used to hack the behaviour of commenters? I'd be interested in seeing the results of running an A/B test on a seemingly simple change like this: Make half the users' comment boxes two or three times as long. Leave it that way for a few months, then take a random sample of the resulting comments and see if there's a difference in quality. I wouldn't be surprised if there was.

[1]<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3458644>

[2]<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3462700>

<comment><USER29> I don't know that this social problem has a technical solution, but you're right that the "points" system encourages shallow comments. Unfortunately some people will always see a number as a score, and start gaming the system to increase it.

The problem with many submissions recently has been they are taken directly from reddit, and have content that sits well with reddit but not HN. The "Programming prodigy passes away at 16" story is a good example: it's tragic news, but the fact that someone has died is not necessarily a good HN submission. Although much of the discussion about Erlang and Haskell went right over my head, I think this site did better when those stories were oft- submitted, if only because it tends to push away the people who would prefer fluffy "human interest" stories. I personally have no intention of creating a startup but find pointers to useful technical ideas and tools here - more of those, please

So I think we need to concentrate on the submissions, removing stories of marginal interest to hackers, and being diligent in upvoting good stories and comments, and downvoting crufty comments.

<comment><USER8> I didnt spell it out, but I'm working on a solution, see my comment lower on this page.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Maybe there should be a comment rate limit based on your avg score. The higher your avg score, the more comments within a certain time period you can make.

This depends on current data for avg karma vs rate of comments which is not publicly available (to my knowledge). This also depends on whether users with the highest avg score actually give great constructive comments but I have not been able to find a way to list those users -- [http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/20612/list- users-...](http://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/20612/list-users-by- average-points-on-hackernews)

<comment><USER31> I do not think this would work very well. I can't speak for others' habits, but my posting comes in bursts. Usually I post rather infrequently--just answering some comment or espousing my views on some moderately interesting subject. However, when I find something _really_ interesting (like a Haskell article :)), I am likely to post in rapid succession.

However, I think that my posts on such subjects are the most beneficial for the site--they're the ones where I have a decent amount of knowledge and direct experience; I am much more likely to contribute something insightful on a CS article than on a sociology one, for example. Rate-limiting would make it harder for me to post about my strongest subjects without changing how I post about random articles.

<comment><USER32> Perhaps one that takes into account the categories you do post in and have a high karma for?

<comment><USER31> Then you have the nontrivial problem of trying to categorize all the posts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> "Please don't feed the trolls"

I've always liked that motto. I feel the (well intentioned) linked post is kind of doing that.

It's true that we want to develop a "mature" culture at HN. It's true that there should be guidelines for that. It's true that new people should have some way of "assimilating" into the etiquette (which is very simple and straight forward etiquette).

But.

People who want to, learn by observing. So if we don't feed the trolls (ignore them) and instead simply do our best to write good posts I think we can preserve the culture.

People who just want attention, why, they LOVE whole blogposts dedicated to them.

</comment><comment><USER34> Many people here mention comments. I'm interested in story submissions.

Please, which submissions have you made that you felt deserved more upvotes? And which do you feel got too much attention?

I was surprised that "Invention of Waterloo (Canada tech triangle) got over 100 votes.

(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3440469>)

I was gently surprised that some of my other stories got no up votes at all. The Electronic Landscape in 1986 - while being really poorly formatted for HN, would have been interesting to people born after that era; "Wait, what? You had these online communities who were not part of the Internet? Who were trying to compete with the Internet? And then they offer Internet access as a bonus feature?"

(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3087928>)

On topic: I comment too much, and I'm reigning it back. ANd I'm trying to increase the signal.

</comment><comment><USER35> I think you are being a bigger jerk than dextorious. You are just angry because he called you a hipster.

I checked his history and he is far from being a troll. You on the other hand wrote a content-free rant full of self-praise ("I try to comment when I have useful, unique, original, or non-standard things to say") and then posted it to HN too.

<comment><USER36> My impression also - this was just somebody taking his grudge from a discussion here to his blog, and then back here. Just couldn't let go.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> \- Herding people seems to be a very difficult problem, but on the other hand i am not aware of scientific approaches to it. There's only assumptions that things like karma, upvotes, reputation increase the likelihood of a comment being useful. Can anyone point to relevant literature?

\- In the end, i don't think it's possible to stop people from commenting, people just feel the need add a comment when they have read an interesting post (Just like this very comment in fact). Having a rule that says not to means nothing. Having your comment under an interesting topic is a modern way to say _"Hey that caught my interest and i think i should participate in the group that discusses this topic, even though i don't have anything insightful to say"_. It's mostly an emotional reaction.

\- As this is a threaded discussion, many people will post just to start a conversation (because they want to spark that conversation), or even start an argument.

\- IMHO, the quality of the comments is directly related to the quality of the frontpage links. HN frontpage is heavily moderated that's why it's (for me at least) the best internet frontpage for technically-minded people. Not having a financial incentive is a big plus as administrators dont have to worry about readership.

\- As a consequence of the frontpage quality, people who want to waste time don't stay long enough to add comments. Otherwise, i don't think there's anything special about the comment section here.

<comment><USER38> True about the threaded discussions, i always felt threaded conversations lead to worse quality discussions. Mostly because of the "argument"-thing. I don't think people intentionally want to start an argument many times but since you are always replying directly to someone it can easily be perceived as offensive or defensive even if you are just adding another neutral fact into the conversation.

Actually "conversation" sounds wrong, because there is no conversation or even common red-line of discussion, just replies to individual comments changing order several times per day based on some rating instead of time. Try returning to a threaded conversation a day after you first read it, you will have to reread almost everything again to get back into the loop again.

Flat comment system can also deteriorate quickly when you reach enough users and everything is just lost into a stream of junk like on youtube. I think stackoverflow has a good model with only one level of threading, not sure how well it would work on a discussion forum without strictly right or wrong answers though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Hmm. There's a lot to unpack here.

First, I'm still on the fence in regards to the quality of discussion here. I think there's a tendency for familiarity to breed contempt (the more familiar you become with HN, the more aware you are of things like mean discussions, and the more rose-colored your glasses will be when considering what it was like "before"). There have been a few attempts to objectively measure any degradation of the site, and so far they haven't found anything conclusive, as far as I know. So, it might not be as bad as you think.

Second, you start out with a really general point, but then halfway-through fall mostly into a single example. If that's the example that got you thinking about this, then you've let yourself turn a wasted moment reading a pointless comment into quite a large waste of your time. The friendliest way I can think of to respond to that is that it is a very silly thing to do. :-)

What are you even doing online, anyway? I mean, for me, at least, being online makes me feel pretty miserable afterward, especially compared to anything else I could be doing. I'll look at my threads page sometimes and the older my most recent comment is, the happier I am with myself. That means I've been spending time on better things -- and anything other than commenting on a website is a better thing. I don't want to chase you off, but at the same time, sometimes I sit back and think about all the time wasted worldwide since the invention of the online forum, and _how little real positive impact there has been from all of that_ , and it kinda bums me out. I must've blown entire months on Slashdot way back when, and all I remember from that now is ... uhm ... Hellmouth? ... and ... hmm. I forget the second thing. I am literally a happier, better person, for every moment that I'm not online.

Thirdly, although your intentions are good, you are criticizing behavior which leads naturally from the design of the site. How much thoughtful discussion is really possible on a site like this one, where most threads come and go after just a few hours, never to be read again? Hell, I wrote about this 9 months ago (<http://robsheldon.com/conversations-online>), submitted it to HN (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2423975>), where it got a little bit of discussion, and then that was it.

Forums like this one are _designed_ to be topical, not thoughtful. With the invention of internet points -- yay, karma, and all that other nonsense -- people have had more incentive than ever to quickly bang out a single-line joke, get a point for every chuckle, and move on. (One of the things which has gotten me the most yummy internet points was a joke -- <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1102126> \-- and, although it was pretty funny, it wasn't nearly as meaningful to me as, say, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3132576>).

HN is _not_ a good place for thoughtful, meaningful discussion. It maybe says it wants to be, but the most important things about its design say otherwise. So at some point, you have to ask yourself, "What am I doing here?"

...Every time that I look at this comment for the next few days, I will be ashamed of myself, because I will know that I wasted 15 minutes writing a thing which would be read by a few people for a few hours and then never again, and I could have played a good game of Go instead.

<comment><USER40> I don't think that forming part of an online discussion is a bad use of time per se. In fact if done well it can be enlightening and stimulating to people beside yourself. It is in pursuit of this standard of excellent conversation that people join certain communities (like HN). If the standard falls they will leave. Many comments are not worth making, but that does not mean that we shouldn't strive to write comments that are.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Like crcsmnky [1], I've been reading HN for a while now but have contributed little. The extant comments from domain adepts generally precludes my ability to add anything constructive to these discussions.

I too have noticed a shift in the timbre here lately. The degradation of civil and apropos discourse is marked. Criticism based on logic and rhetoric (ad hominem, straw-man, etcetera) has lost some ground to internet-acronyms (IANAL, IIRC, and such) Since culling sources takes work, this warrants addressing for risk of losing this relevance.

I've been thinking about this problem recently in the face of web searches that yield forum discussions. I'm begun to avoid forum results, due to endless threads that lack a solution to the specific problem (even sometimes incorrectly marked [Solved]).

Curated Q&A sites [2] address this successfully by putting the correct answer above the fold. But community discussions don't have a correct answer, so the problem here is not quite the same. I don't have a solution, but even revising sort order might do. I'd hazard to suggest an additional degree of community- based voting and editing should be added.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469618>

[2] <http://www.question2answer.org/>

[edit] formatting

</comment><comment><USER42> One of the things I've learned on HN is that if a comment can be misunderstood, it will be. So if you post insightful, brief comment A, you can count on getting replies B,C,E,E, and F that completely miss the point.

This leads me to believe that some -- perhaps not the majority, but some -- of the comments here that we consider snarky or noise might actually be pretty good comments, we just misread them. And then respond.

In my own experience I have found when I am tired or not mentally functioning very well I tend to misread the intention of comments. Assuming this holds true in the larger community, there may not be a way to fix the extra problem I bring up. Or any of these related problems, for that matter.

I mention that to say this: _the community can only go so far talking about a topic in any direction without a lot of emotional push-back starting up, and emotions win over logic_. So if the subject is "businesses that sell to poor people," at some point, somebody is going to start making a case that businesses shouldn't be allowed to "exploit" poor people. Those folks are not being snarky; to them they are simply making a stand that needs to be made when the subject has gone off the rails. Likewise, if the subject is "writing your own OS to make a fortune," at some point somebody is going to start beating the F/OSS drums. If somebody posts yet another "Young inventor conquers known universe" stories, somebody is going to point out the trope.

These folks are not trying to be snarky or trolling. They are simply trying to provide useful feedback. But comments like this have a tendency to snowball. Once you let one comment in that says something like "enough with the young kid inventor stories that are overhyped!" then the next commenter feels like he has to out-do the first. And a lousy thread is born. If you do not let these comments in, then you are saying you want a board where people must react to content in a completely non-emotional fashion. That's not going to work either. In the terrible example of the deceased programmer, probably 2 or 3 percent of the audience did not feel sympathy for the story. Out of that bunch, maybe only 2 or 3 percent felt the need (?) to express criticism. But in a community the size of HN, that's enough. Once those comments were put out, the rest of those folks who felt little sympathy were empowered to go along with the thread, drawing in fence-sitters in the process. After all, they were simply being dispassionate! That's what we ask for when we deride most bad comments, right?

All abstractions are leaky, and language is very slippery. With tens of thousands of readers, written comments and articles simply are too leaky to scale.

So we have yet another terrible example of HNers performing poorly. I don't have an answer. What we see is mob behavior at work, the human social animal. Written communication is much different than vocal communication, but we naturally try to use them both the same way. We are performing as designed. It's probably a feature, not a bug. :)

EDIT: Please don't take this as an apologia for poor commenting or what happened yesterday, just my attempt at explanation. One of the worst comments I ever made was in reply to a long-time HN'er who was basically asking "Why are you loading up my HN feed with this useless obituary crap?" when somebody posted about a somewhat famous person passing away. I told them to shut their pie-hole. And I'd write that comment again in a heartbeat.

</comment><comment><USER43> The guidelines state that "HN is becoming reddit" is a subject that should be avoided unless you have something really interesting to say. This article has something interesting to say and, I suppose, there has been other similar interesting threads in the past.

Aside from this article, what are the other past submissions that are worth reading to see how _community deterioration_ has been felt through the years?

</comment><comment><USER44> In the age before the Internet, the exact same thing happened to music subcultures - hippies, punks, ravers etc started out as small groups of pioneers, consciously trying to do something new. Over time those scenes became flooded with posers and wannabes, most of whom had no idea that what they were doing was counter to the original principles. The original pioneers moved on to something new.

The same lifecycle seems to be a property of online communities, except at a much faster rate. The phenomenon even has a name (Eternal September), named for Usenet's annual flooding with college freshmen who did not understand the rules or culture of the community. Eventually the irregular floods became a torrent as Usenet opened up (via AOL and Google Groups), and the community died.

Are online communities destined to have a limited lifecycle, either stagnating or collapsing under the weight of their own popularity? What can (or should) be done to maximize valuable conversations?

</comment><comment><USER45> The problem is simple: cynical, jaded, unemphatic disrespectful people _like cool things just like the rest of us._

Hacker News is cool. It's full of enriching discussion and useful links and insight into the industry. It's a great web page to surf to and it doesn't bother you with adverts or anything like that. Unfortunately, this means it's now attracting those users we'd rather not have to deal with.

I don't think there's a solution to this problem, except maybe somehow make the sight less user-friendly and less familiar to users of SlashDot etc., so that those people who don't value maturity get fed up and leave.

Hacker News used to stand out as being so much more mature than other sites on the internet... that has definitely started to slip I think. Possibly the endless climate of political contentiousness is also contributing to it (SOPA, healthcare, the 1%, financial crisis etc).

</comment><comment><USER46> What HN is an ignore list.

Let the trollers post whatever they want, anonymously. But each HN reader can have their own ignore list, and eventually no one will even read the troll's comments. He can troll to his heart's content, but he will be ignored. The problem with downvoting is that the troll gets the pleasure of knowing he pissed off X number of people.

With an ignore list, it's passive, and the troll gets no feedback. A growing number of people will stop reading his posts, and when the troll gets no more responses, he'll leave. He can change pseudonyms, but the same effect will occur, and he'll get bored. It's pretty much as simple as that. It's the equivalent to the NYC subway system painting over graffiti as soon as it's painted. After a while, the vandals get frustrated, and they stop doing it.

</comment><comment><USER47> This seems to be an issue in every online community, whether news-oriented or not.

I'd like to try an experiment with a less open online geek news community. Social trust-based. Very hard to get an account that can write comments. Must be invited or voted to have that privilege. Very easy to get perma-banned. Though, to avoid appearing as Skull and Bones or some other private club, all comments would still be public. Even as a lurker, the insightful comments are often the most valuable thing on a site like this.

There are successful examples of these communities as simply forums in other fields like video game programming, cars, medicine. I'm a member of one for video game developers and one for car computer tuning. There ought to be a good way to apply it to peer-voted news.

</comment><comment><USER48> What if you disallowed people from upvoting until they had received X upvotes? Would that force people to assimilate the culture before being allowed to affect it?

Alternatively, or additionally, has any thought been given (maybe something like it is already in place) to weighted voting? By which I mean more power is given to the upvotes and downvotes of community members who have been upvoted a large number of times. If a trusted member recommends something should it be given more weight than a recommendation by a newcomer?

Just a couple thoughts by a relative newcomer who has nonetheless observed and participated in online discussion for years and is interested in the problem of scaling a valuable community...

</comment><comment><USER49> I run a much less successful site than this and have dealt with and thought a lot about comment issues. HN does a brilliant job, for the most part, in handling comments. I would say that some people are unfairly hell banned (I see dead people) or slow banned, but it's for the greater good of the community and you can always get a new account.

My one possible suggestion would be to make HN more social. That way all the people who like to be trolls can troll each other and people not interested can unfollow, etc... Although, the Google+ Hacker News Circle has basically done this for me, and I like it a lot.

</comment><comment><USER50> I don't understand this post at all. If I read the comments on the thread about Arfa, I see mostly positive, interesting and insightful comments. A few comments were bad and were downvoted.

In any thread, it would be surprising to get no bad comments at all. They'll always be there and you can do nothing but ignore them, even when they get upvoted. Just keeping adding your own insightful comments, ignore the other ones and I wonder whether things will deteriorate much further.

</comment><comment><USER51> Interesting post, and certainly a valid issue to discuss; however, although I can see where you're coming from and needing examples to draw on, the way it is written hard to read it without feeling like it's specifically bashing certain users. That's not to say I don't agree with the point you're trying to make, but maybe it would be more effective not to list user names specifically in the post.

</comment><comment><USER52> I agree with the problem analysis and I've read similar sentiments before here on HN for a while. However, I have yet to find an article that methodically explores the solution space, or even just suggests practically achievable improvements.

It would be said if we start to sound like Karl Marx, who provided well founded criticism of capitalism but was never able to come up with anything better.

</comment><comment><USER53> I read Hacker News on a delay so that the best comments have had time to be posted and to be floated to the top. It used to work well -- mean comments have generally floated to the bottom. But on this story the mean comments have floated to the top: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3469927>

</comment><comment><USER54> Pratical approach: How about adding a link to the Guidelines from the "new comment" page? And maybe putting the most important part right next to the submit / reply button, like "Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation" or "If you have nothing of value to say, don't say anything"?

<comment><USER54> (making this into a separate comment since it's a different, related idea)

How about having a "flag" link for comments with a drop-down list of points from the guidelines that the comment violates?

It would reduce the noise from other replying to the comment stating why they think it's inappropriate, and would still let the commenter know what they did wrong while burrying the comment.

<comment><USER55> There is a spanish Digg-like site, Menéame [1], which offers this same option. I think it works pretty well as it keeps the site clean of news which don't obey the rules. Despite that, people will still reply explaining why they flagged the comment (and I think this is the correct way to behave: you should explain why the comment is wrong and how to improve it in order to improve the community)

[1] <http://www.meneame.net>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> One of the most powerful things that HN enjoys is a vital, continuous and active meta-discussion about the quality of HN.

I'm going to take a different approach to this. If you look at the comments in the thread in question, there's really only one person who's behavior is lamentable, and it's clear by his continuous statements in the topic that he isn't even aware of it...Dunning–Kruger is spot on. I was even so pissed I took the bait and fed the troll when I probably should have thought better of it.

However, looking back at the thread a day later, I see that the community policing _worked_. That vast majority of the really despicable comments were downvoted into negative territory. The poster's statements were tossed out into the trash they were.

The truth is, we shouldn't extrapolate the behavior of one attention starved malcontent to the entire community. I'm personally _impressed_ with the community. To me at least, the community worked hard to keep the discussion appropriate and positive, elbowing out the bad sort of folks who shouldn't be participating in a forum like this.

Yeah sure, there were a few other questionable top level posts, but nothing entirely inappropriate, most of the ugliness centered around one person (I'm including myself regrettably as a participant in responding to this troll). So it's no the community that necessarily behaved badly, in fact the community behaved quite well.

 _edit_ Something I thought I'd add after reading through a few more comments discussing how the quality of discussion here appears to be going down. I have to disagree. I'd say that the comments and discussions here are extremely strong, better than they were about a year ago (or whenever pg turned off comment voting). At that time, HN seemed to be suffering from an outrageous echo chamber where a select group of superstars were automatically the top comment in every thread they participated in, the cult of Apple was going through all kinds of absurd egocentric narcissism, a Haskell and a Daring Fireball post was guaranteed to be on the front page, and any comments pointing this out were mercilessly downvoted and their users flagged - <USER2> comments supporting the echo chamber group think were guaranteed karma earners.

Since the simple switch to turn off comment points, this trend seems to have dissipated. Superstars no longer squat at the top of the mountain, Haskell no longer dominates the front page, we still love Apple, but only as a product company that makes cool stuff, not as a cult, and dissenting opinions and reasonable debate seems to have returned. The front page is dominated by tech tips and business ideas most days, even in the shadow of SOPA. In short HN has returned with a vengeance.

</comment><comment><USER57> So.. person A annoyed person B. Person B made a blog post about it and tied it into how the HN community is declining as a whole. Person A makes a few comments in the thread, and makes own blog post about the initial blog post.

I thought high school was over.

</comment><comment><USER58> Maybe a "report abuse" link next to each comment (with its attendant functionality) would be useful.

</comment><comment><USER59> You could have made an awesome point but you ruined it. I agree that there's been a decline but the examples you pull out to support it don't help you much. The comments on the young girl who died were deplorable but I think that's a very rare case and I wouldn't say that happens often around here. But even that doesn't hurt your point as much as going after Dextorious like you did. You make a good case for him being a great example of the problem but this article comes off as you being disgruntled by him and going off on a personal attack. I don't think it's right to name names like that unless the person being named has a certain degree of notoriety. You could have left his name out of this, still used the quotes, maybe pull out some more quotes from other users exhibiting the same pattern and then this article would look far more like the commentary I'm sure you meant it to be rather than Mr. Siegler getting pissed off at and attacking someone. I'm disappointed. I'm not disappointed in your opinion, because there's a lot of truth to it but I'm disappointed in the way you approached it. Hopefully most of us will see past the flaws and really dig deeper into your real point. Other than that, I thought you were right on.

</comment><comment><USER60> Which comes first, the troll, or the heavy-handed mod (or community downvote waterfall, in the case of HN)? I've often found that the least moderated forums yield the strongest communities, which is somewhat counterintuitive.

I think the author of this blog post was simply combative in his own responses to the offensive commenter, and could have been far more engaging in a way that builds community. This blog post strikes me as a sort of passive- aggressive way to win a silly Internet argument and get validation.

(yes, I realize that the above paragraph itself seems combative, but really, I think you could have done a better job handling the situation)

</comment><comment><USER15> To throw a couple of ideas into the "tech solutions" pile, I wonder what would happen to the quality of comments in a community if a mandatory 1 minute delay was put in before the text area would appear. This would I think have two benefits: 1. it would for commenters to think about what they were saying for at least a minute. 2. It would raise the barrier of entry to the point that posting a worthless one liner doesn't seem worthwhile or satisfying.</comment>


The days of .dev domains for testing code are over - <AUTHOR> https://medium.engineering/use-a-dev-domain-not-anymore-95219778e6fd <comment><USER3> OK, so after a few pages of unnecessary history, the story is that Google bought the .dev TLD and uses it only for internal purposes.

<comment><USER4> Thanks Chrome. I use _.dev_ quite a lot. Looks like I'll be using FFox for development from here on, until they also decide to usurp their position! And then I'll just use lynx.

Of course, I could change my ways and start using a different naming system: I notice a lot of development shops using _.local_ , albeit for _same machine_ dev & testing.

Edit: lol. tried to use 'star'.dev, but it came out in italics!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> While this is an interesting exploration of the history of the Internet, gTLDs, HSTS, and various other things, the story boils down to this: never make up an unregistered domain/TLD and assume it won't exist in the future; always use a reserved test domain/TLD from RFC 2606 ([https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2606](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2606)) or the updated RFC 6761 ([https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6761](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6761)): .test, .invalid, .example, or .localhost, depending on what semantics you need.

<comment><USER6> to be fair, before icann introduced the gtld program, it was a fair assumption that there wouldn't be a .dev tld.

<comment><USER7> But also, the folks at medium made that assumption long after RFC 2606 had established a "right answer" for which tld to use when testing.

<comment><USER6> i think i wasn't being clear with my initial comment. it's a "fair assumption" in the same way that it's a fair assumption that emails can be validated with the regex

        [a-zA-Z0-9\.]+@[a-zA-Z0-9]+\.[a-zA-Z0-9]+

sure, it breaks for gmail aliases (with +), isn't RFC compliant, and the proper regex is a google search away, but it's understandable why that was chosen. same with .dev domains. yeah, you probably should have looked for a reserved tld, but why do that when .dev already didn't exist, and it didn't look like icann was going to delegate that any time soon?

see also: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=falsehoods%20programmers%20bel...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=falsehoods%20programmers%20believe%20about%20&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

<comment><USER8> These don't strike me as comparable scenarios.

In the case of .dev, it didn't even appear in the weeds of usage when the DNS root servers were measured for traffic to identify potential new TLDs usage conflicts in the real world (e.g. [https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/name- collision-0...](https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/name- collision-02aug13-en.pdf) p22). Even if .dev were in significant usage, that traffic was not reaching the domain name system. The complaint seems to be fundamentally to be about the pre-loaded configuration of Chrome, not the DNS.

In the case of your regex, it would breaks millions of production domains in used today and fail in a wide variety of scenarios. It is only understandable in the context of someone who hasn't done any cursory research into the topic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > _The other option is to change your .dev domain and never look back. But > what domain could we migrate to? With the gTLD gold rush, is anything safe?_

Just buy medium-devel.com or something and make it resolve to 127.0.0.1 in internal DNS. This gets you a couple of benefits:

\- No one will ever take it from you

\- You can configure it in external DNS if you'd like

\- You can get a real, publicly-trusted SSL certificate for it, for free, because Let's Encrypt can resolve DNS challenges against it

(By the way, you want to get an SSL certificate for internal development, because of the policy - Chrome-initiated but now followed by the HTML standards folks in general - to require HTTPS for fancy new features like geolocation and service workers: [https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium- security/prefer-secur...](https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium- security/prefer-secure-origins-for-powerful-new-features) If you don't have HTTPS of some sort, you can't test these features locally.)

<comment><USER10> This is exactly what I've been doing for years and got my current workplace doing.

We set up `*.l.example.com` (where example.com is our company's domain) to all resolve to 127.0.0.1. I personally have nginx set up to map `project.client.l.example.com` to `/path/to/webroot/client/project/`.

All of our infrastructure has hostnames under our domain and references other pieces of infrastructure using those hostnames.

Why is everyone putting so much effort into trying to operate outside of the established domain name system? To avoid paying the $10/yr?

<comment><USER9> If your public website has access to sensitive credentials, and you tend to be logged in on your development machine (imagine you're amazon.com, or google.com, or something), I would recommend using a separate domain registration instead of a subdomain of your production domain, just so that vulnerabilities in your development site don't risk exposure of production cookies or other credentials. As you say, it's <$10/year. It also lets you buy a wildcard cert for *.contoso-dev.com and make the private key readable to the entire company and not have to think about whether this is a security risk.

If your public-facing website is just a static landing page (e.g., you're a B2B company or a design agency or a hedge fund or whatever), then yeah, using .dev.contoso.com works.

(By the way, the same analysis applies to running internal services at out-of- date-wiki.corp.contoso.com - consider whether you'd be happier hosting them at out-of-date-wiki.contoso-corp.com instead, and having contoso-corp.com not exist in external DNS.)

<comment><USER10> Good points and appreciate the advice - I hadn't considered that. Thankfully our public-facing site is essentially static.

Even in the static-site case where the risk may be minimal, there's certainly no harm in moving these sorts of things to a separate domain - especially for anyone looking at this as a new setup due to .dev issues.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I absolutely hate this gTLD crap. The fact that companies can pick up any TLD on the global namespace is absurd. Even worse, the internet community never had a chance to object to these sales.

Something that pisses me off even more is that a few months back there was an IETF draft to specify the .home TLD to only resolve local network requests. It seemed pretty reasonable, but there was pushback and it was changed to home.arpa, since the .arpa TLD is already restricted. So big companies can pick up any TLD they want, but regular users will forever be forced to type in extra characters.

<comment><USER8> Never had a chance? The rules that would allow this kind of allocation were debated publicly and strenuously for many years in Internet governance circles, with many iterations of drafts and public comment periods. Some of those rules specifically governed which domains should be disallowed because they would have impact on existing utilization, as well as those that needed to be reserved for technical reasons.

<comment><USER12> "There's no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it now."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I had no idea you could buy gTLDs for internal company use. That's outrageous, and ICANN should have rejected the application. I don't mind the idea behind gTLDs, but the while thing has been handled pretty poorly.

<comment><USER14> > for internal company use.

There are no gTLDs intended only for _internal_ company use. There are many that are intended for only a single companyto use them, though externally.

For example, the .americanexpress gtld ([https://www.nic.americanexpress/](https://www.nic.americanexpress/)) will only provide domains to entities affiliated with american express.

Same with .dodge, and .google, and many many others.

ICANN handled this quite well -- they let others object to applications, let anyone who may have a trademark or reason to claim the word was generic come forwards, left time for comments, etc etc.

If you're objecting to this now, not back when the program was being formed, you clearly handled this poorly by not being involved in something you care about.

If you don't care and weren't involved, you also don't have the full picture and your outrage very well might be misplaced.

<comment><USER15> > If you're objecting to this now, not back when the program was being formed, > you clearly handled this poorly by not being involved in something you care > about.

> If you don't care and weren't involved, you also don't have the full picture > and your outrage very well might be misplaced.

That's an unhelpful and unreasonable response. You shouldn't blame people for not being attuned to the activities an obscure bureaucracy (the gTLD process), just because they might be affected by it. The gTLD process has a problem, not the people negatively affected by it.

There really ought to be a long post-implementation objection period for gTLDs, and the existing process should be changed to allow for that. The top goal of the DNS system right now should be to not break stuff, and that should override any entity's desire to buy a gTLD for $$$.

<comment><USER16> You can't un-delegate TLDs once they've been delegated. That breaks the Internet. The creation of a TLD is thus irreversible, and deleting a TLD would cause a lot more harm than it would prevent.

What you _can_ do is transfer the TLD to a different operator, and/or change its registration policies, though all of the existing domains on the TLD need to remain with their existing owners, as domain names are legally treated as property and cannot be confiscated except through due process (like a court seizure following a ruling on illegal activities).

<comment><USER15> > as domain names are legally treated as property and cannot be confiscated > except through due process (like a court seizure following a ruling on > illegal activities).

That's just current convention, though. If better governance means being less private-property absolutism, I'm for it. ICANN or whoever could just update the terms of their contract to allow revocation of the TLD (with a refund), if there's too much weeping and gnashing of teeth over it's issuance. People would just need to understand domains on a new TLD aren't going to be as ironclad as ones on more established TLDs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Having read [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6761](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6761), I have a use-case which I've seen often but doesn't seem to be covered: What TLD should I use for internal, production domains? ie. names that are only resolvable within my network, but are definitely not "test" domains and calling them .test would generate confusion.

Mostly I tend to see companies either inventing an unregistered TLD, often using their own company name, or they use ".local", which can cause issues - some systems treat this name specially.

A third option would be putting all internal names under an "internal.yourcompany.com", but that's long and annoying.

Ideally I'd like to see a ".private" or ".internal" TLD recognised as special- use under the same semantics as ".test". Does anyone have any better option?

<comment><USER17> > What TLD should I use for internal, production domains?

The currently safe way is to use a public domain that you own (you could use a distinct subdomain for this, which is not publicly exposed but which is in DNS on your internal network; e.g., intranet.example.com if you own example.com); as you note, this gives a long full domain.

> Mostly I tend to see companies either inventing an unregistered TLD, often > using their own company name, or they use ".local", which can cause issues - > some systems treat this name specially.

".local" is a reserved domain with special semantics, see RFC 6762.

> Ideally I'd like to see a ".private" or ".internal" TLD recognised as > special-use under the same semantics as ".test".

I'm kind of surprised that we haven't seen an RFC gain acceptance for this already, but I expect something like this will happen and be registered with the IANA special use domains registry.

<comment><USER16> My colleague has written a draft RFC for this very use case, in fact: [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wkumari-dnsop- interna...](https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wkumari-dnsop-internal/)

It's still very much in the early stages though.

Even then, though, you can end up with all sorts of problems during mergers/acquisitions when previously separate intranets end up getting joined, exposing naming conflicts. Ultimately you always need to use a globally unique namespace, so either use a real domain name (guaranteed unique) or do something unique on top of .internal, e.g. .yourcompanyname.internal (still not guaranteed unique, but better).

See also: [https://jdebp.eu/FGA/dns-use-domain-names-that-you- own.html](https://jdebp.eu/FGA/dns-use-domain-names-that-you-own.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> tl;dr - Google bought the .dev gTLD, specified it for internal use, and pushed changes in Chrome to require HTTPS.

Is that monopolistic behaviour?

<comment><USER19> Thanks for the tl;dr, but why buy a tld for internal use only? Just so nobody else would? (Maybe it's in TFA; I'll admit I didn't read it)

<comment> vertex-four To ensure that nobody else does. Google uses .dev pervasively for projects - if someone were to buy .dev and sell domains in it on the global DNS infrastructure, then myfancynewproject.dev would resolve to something entirely different from within Google than from outside it.

<comment><USER15> > To ensure that nobody else does. Google uses .dev pervasively for projects - > if someone were to buy .dev and sell domains in it on the global DNS > infrastructure, then myfancynewproject.dev would resolve to something > entirely different from within Google than from outside it.

So basically Google decided to break everyone else, because they were afraid someone would break them. They should be more considerate of other developers who use .dev internally like them.

<comment><USER20> _They should be more considerate of other developers who use .dev internally like them._

Why? What do they owe anyone?

<comment><USER15> >> They should be more considerate of other developers who use .dev internally like them.

> Why? What do they owe anyone?

Your attitude is the root cause of _so many_ problems.

The have a moral obligation to not be jerks. If you're not aware, one of the things jerks are known for is acting selfishly with no concern for how their actions affect others.

Google shouldn't have been allowed to buy a gTLD like dev in the first place. But, since it has and Google only plans on using it internally, it should only use it in ways that don't break existing usages.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Is this a real problem? Usually when I need a testing domain I make a subdomain on an address I or my company owns. dev.kluny.com. Easy.

<comment><USER22> It was a really bad practice that, for some reason, got really _really_ popular - so especially in the Ruby community and it's derived branches - <USER2> it was still always a bad idea to make up your own domains for testing.

So it isn't exactly a _shock_ that this bad practice is going to bite its users. I think the reason it's getting headlines is _why_ it's biting those users now, all at once.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> The article outlines two options. There is a third.

Lobby google through petitions and collective developer action to surrender their .dev TLD and create an RFC that makes it reserved for developer used, similarly to .example and .test.

<comment><USER24> I'm not sure a strong case can be made that Google should be obliged to do that. There already exist TLD suffixes reserved for testing. ".dev" just isn't one of them.

<comment><USER23> I would beg to differ. As you've mentioned, there exists an official TLD suffix. However, de facto, .dev is the testing TLD. I've never seen .example or .invalid in real life. I've seen a tiny bit of .test. At every job that had a test dev, we used .dev. In many cases that decision was made by other developers. Judging by the comments here, and the article, it seems that many people have been using it.

A case can be made. How strong it will be remains to be seen. I hope Google can see the greater good in this. They have a lot of good will to win amongst the developer community.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I really enjoyed this piece. We don't use .dev on my team so it allowed me to read it as purely educational. And it really was informative and surprisingly entertaining!

</comment><comment><USER26> On a blog hosted at .engineering. Let's just move away from all of these novelty Tlds.

</comment><comment><USER27> Typical jerk move. This is not only taking the ball with you but closing the field and locking it requiring keys that only you have.

Not only is this problematic but so is HSTS, and the push for increasing reliance on CAs and in effect making self signed certs pointless.

The great concern for SSL by many people is simply ad supporting behavior masquerading as concern for privacy and state actors. Apparently ssl which is routinely mitm'd by small time corporations can protect privacy. Accept that with straight face while mitm vendors interests are paid attention to in standards meetings.

And Mozilla, the so called 'defender' cashing in on the public good will whenever it suits them conveniently caves in to Google at every opportunity.

</comment><comment><USER28> Google will be buying up the 127.x.x.x ip range before you know it /sarcasm

<comment><USER6> i'm sure that icann can be persuaded to reassign ownership of that subnet if google paid enough money. it's not like there's much people using anything other than 127.0.0.1, so why not sell 127.128.0.0/9 for some quick bucks? the only thing stopping them is the billions of legacy devices around that can't route to that address.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Wow, is it so hard to use a self-signed in your local dev config for nginx/whatever? I have a bash script that auto-spins up a new dev environment ala: ng create something.dev apps/php/laravel/app/public -- auto makes a self- signed cert, reloads nginx, and should still work in new chrome, since it uses https.

Am I missing something or are they whining over nothing? I would get a little perturbed if only .dev domains show up if you're on a google ip or something, but for now, using https is totally do-able.

</comment><comment><USER30> If Google is only using .dev internally, and there won't be any public .dev domains, then who cares? As long as my hosts file routes .dev to the proper localhost nooks and crannies, nothing changes.

Unless you've bound yourself to Big G's browser. We only use that for last- minute rendering tests because management doesn't trust it not to leak info back to Mountain View.

Also, does Medium have a minimum word requirement? For some reason Medium articles always seem unnecessarily extra large.

</comment><comment><USER31> Rather than maintaining a list of HSTS websites which isn't cross-browser, why is there not an optional HSTS flag attached to the DNS response? I don't know anything about DNS requests, so changing the protocol in a backwards compatible way might be impossible, but that seems like a much better way to maintain that information than with a separate list.

<comment><USER12> That would need to be combined with DNSSEC to be useful for security, but with that caveat that sounds like a good idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Just use lacolhost.com: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13749515](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13749515)

</comment><comment><USER33> In my job we use our hostname.ourdomainname.com for internal things, so I don't see this problem as much. And it wont be accessible externally anyway.

</comment><comment><USER34> We still have a huge number of the dev environments running on .dev, needless to say we were pretty pissed off when Google were able to buy the TLD to use as they wish. Anyway, not much we can do about it now other than start the process of setting up a new subdomain and reconfiguring all our CI/CD, Apps, Docs etc... I know we should have done it ages ago, there's a ticket there for it... but resourcing.... _sigh_

</comment><comment><USER35> _Looks at ` /etc/hosts`_

:(

</comment><comment><USER36> isn't this solved by using Firefox instead?

<comment><USER15> No. If you waded through the history lesson, you'd eventually learn that Google maintains the list of domains requiring HTTPS that all the other browsers use. Unless something changes, Firefox will eventually pick it up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Hmm. I have never seen this done or heard of it being done.

</comment><comment><USER38> "Like a small child, your operating system believes in "stranger danger" and doesn't trust self-signed certificates."

[ ] True [x] False

First, is it the OS that distrusts certificates, or is it the HTTP client?

Second, CA certificates such as the ones trusted by HTTP clients (contained in "browsers") are self-signed certificates.

Pre-installed CA certificates in corporate HTTP clients (e.g., Chrome, etc.) and CA certificates in downloadbale "bundles" available from corporations (e.g., Mozilla) are self-signed.

</comment><comment><USER39> As much as I agree with not using a public TLD as a dev environment, why the fuck was google allowed to register and privately secure not one but several domains for their own private use? Fuck them. That shouldn't have been allowed, especially for a TLD that's well known to be heavily used.

I really dislike allowing domains to be used in such a way. It seems extremely short sighted.

<comment><USER40> Anyone is allowed to buy any gTLD for any use. As a result, Google was allowed to buy .dev. They then chose to use it for internal use only.

Unfortunately, the time to oppose this was long ago when gTLDs were first being debated...

<comment><USER39> So I'm not allowed to disagree with something just because it happened a while ago? I was against it then because of exactly this kind of thing happening. My opinion hasn't changed. But, I guess it should because you say so right?

I see this kind of attitude a lot when it comes to technology "Oh it's already happened just accept it" Or "It's the way everything is so just go along with it"

I'm getting fairly sick of being told I shouldn't disagree with or be against something because"that's the way it is"

Since when has technology ever been about accepting things the way they are? The whole reason we even have an internet is because people decided the way things were weren't good enough.

<comment><USER40> Of course you're allowed to disagree! Without exception, any person is allowed to disagree with any thing at any time. It's a basic human right.

Whether or not that disagreement can be reasonably expected to have meaningful impact on what many others regard as a decision long made is a different question, and the one to which I was speaking.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Raising my rates as an offshore dev - <AUTHOR>

I'm a brazilian resident, and I just got offered a job as a contractor for a NY company. Looking at some recent posts about salaries, the $35/hour they offered me pales in comparison with the $100+/year I've been seeing. I did some independent research, and it's not hard to find people charging $120+/hour. I suspect I'm being lowballed specifically because I'm not based in the US.
I like to think I have a good experience. I'm a Ruby/PHP/JS developer with 6 years of solid professional experience, plus 2 years studying before I got my first real job. Worked remotely at least at some capacity this entire time. I did a very technical interview with this company, and they seemed very impressed (as in "we do not see this all the time").
So my question is: how do I get better rates as an offshore dev? I'd rather not move to the US right now (Brazil is very cheap outside the capitals, and I'm saving money to move to Europe next year), but that's not completely out of the question. I've seen people suggesting to bill by the week instead of hourly, should I try that? I have some projects on my portfolio (I'm adding a couple of personal projects to that list this month), but I don't have much open source code, maybe I should work a little bit on that? Or are my rates already average based in my experience? I have difficulties evaluating my own skills, so maybe I'm asking too much.
Thanks in advance for your input! <comment><USER2> First, make yourself provably valuable. As in, have a bunch of things that you can point to and say "I built these, and I can build the thing you need too". It can be a startup, a live website from one of your old gigs, or (far less impressive to employers) open source stuff. More stuff is more better. Be the guy who built "x", as seen on the cover of "kickass engineer" magazine.

At the same time, make sure you're not putting anybody off with your communication style. You want to be able to pass for a Silicon Valley startup employee both over email and on the phone. Communication is seriously overlooked by most developers, and I'd say it's a big factor in why some guys can negotiate $200/hr contract gigs and others have trouble finding a job at all. Just a few little red-flag type errors in your email style can drop you right back into the "$10/hr guy from India or someplace, I think" pile.

Good job, by the way, being born in New York. That's your timezone, so it might as well be where people think you're from. No need to say so in as many words, but next time somebody asks, you're on "East Coast Time". You can be in Brazil again once you're in the door and delivering results.

So that's it, really. Get good at what you do, make sure people know it, and that if they don't know it yet they will after a quick email back and forth. Take that $35/hr gig if it's all that's on offer now. Execute well and make sure everybody knows you did so, then ramp up your rate for the next gig. Repeat as necessary.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> I'd say if the $35 is a fair wage in your home country than use this job as a starting point. If it was me and that was at least a reasonable wage in Brazil, then I would use this company to gain some credibility and negotiate with them not for more money, but for the opportunity to use them as a US based reference for more work. Doing this will help you secure additional work and let you increase yours rates as you go.

I have this argument with a lot of people in the US, where I am at. They feel because San Francisco based contractors charge $225/hr or more sometimes, that it should be the same in their area. Generally they use the argument that the contractor out there is no smarter or better than they are. Frankly, it goes based off what the market will bare in the area you are working and the area the company is located combined. That is why you don't see large contracting firms with one standard rate, they tailor it based on location, service and perceived corporate value.

Also, you asked about charging by the week instead. I am a huge fan of this, charge by the week, agree to a reasonable deliverable each week and then you control your hours significantly more. It also stops the extra scrutiny of your invoices where many times the accounting group will push projects to shave fractions of an hour to save themselves cash. A flat fixed weekly rate is easy for them to budget, pay and removes most of that extra scrutiny. Lastly, if you switch to weekly, just remember that if you make a promise for that week, you have to deliver no matter what the hours you work are; and if that isn't going to be possible, you need to communicate the issue as far in advance of that week as possible with specifics to realign expectations.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's not so much about technical ability as it is the ability to sell. Build up your brand and you increase your value in the eyes of others. The best paying clients may not even know what Ruby/PHP/JS is.

One of your disadvantages right now is that you can't meet people face to face in the U.S. That doesn't mean you can't charge good rates, but this removes a certain group of clients who require this.

In some cases you have little choice but to charge $100+ per hour. If you live in Sydney, Los Angeles, New York and any other crazy expensive city, then charging these rates would be expected because everything else is crazy expensive also. People know how much it costs to live in that city.

However, it still comes down to sales. Always be networking. Always be looking for new clients. Always be raising your rates as you keep the sales machine going. You mentioned only one client, try landing a bunch more.

</comment><comment><USER5> You've got to be wary of the cheapskate. In my experience, its traditional for american headquartered companies to view non-american workers as second class.

You are worth what someone is willing to pay and you will find someone whom is less ridiculous with a starting rate.

</comment><comment><USER6> working with offshore devs is really hard. You might be as smart as somebody that is worth a $100, but your being so far away is going to make you less effective hence worth less money. Or offer to come to the US on a visa that is really hard to get and work the first 3 months from their office before you go back home.</comment>