Mark Shuttleworth says some free software folk are 'deeply anti-social' - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/04/10/mark_shuttleworth_says_some_free_software_contributors_are_deeply_anti_social/ <comment><USER2> The problem with Mir, Unity and all the convergence ideas was that they were poorly communicated.

They didn't really engage with the community and kept all the discussions and development behind closed doors, releasing dumps of code once in a while once they reached a milestone that they were satisfied with.

That's what Google does with Android, for example, and that would be okay... but only if they were able to take on such ambitious plans.

You can't expect the community to welcome you when you blindly follow your ideas and you can't even produce anything in quality. And when I mean in quality, I mean something that justifies going your own way, not just another "GNOME clone" without any added features.

I'm pretty sure they had amazing ideias in mind and that they had reasons on why they avoided going to Wayland but... is anyone able to point out any public mailing list, or public blog discussions, where they discuss all of this? I really tried to follow all Ubuntu/Mir/Unity/Phone/Convergence project but all the information I found was poor and outdated. Even working Ubuntu Phone images for the Nexus 5 was hard to find.

<comment><USER3> _> You can't expect the community to welcome you when you blindly follow your ideas and you can't even produce anything in quality._

So you'd rather destroy a promising program just because you weren't _asked about your opinion_? Doesn't this effectively mean that we stopped caring about open source, the only thing that actually matters now is the perception of broad community support? It doesn't seem to be about users anymore either, it's all about the approval of gatekeepers now.

It used to be anyone, a guy in a garage, or even a huge company, could make something, share the source code, and we'd be happy for their contribution. Now that's apparently shifted to "don't start anything new, just fall in line with the existing stuff". What company or individual would want to publish anything new in this kind of environment?

<comment><USER4> Nobody is destroying anything. But people can refuse to adopt or support your project/program

<comment><USER3> _> Nobody is destroying anything. But people can refuse to adopt or support your project/program_

There is a difference between ignoring a piece of software you don't like and actively campaigning against it.

<comment><USER5> It's not like Mir wasn't campaigning actively against Wayland.

No project exist in a vacuum. I like it that way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Mark & the gang thought they could build something better and so they went for it. Their ideas may be wrong, but they took a stab. Most of those criticizing Mir never go beyond mere talk. That's the main difference to me.

<comment><USER7> That's a nice change of history. Canonical was behind Wayland. They secretly (for 6-9 months) started working on Mir. This while they said they'd do various amount of work on Wayland. Up to that point they publicly said Wayland is the next thing.

After 6-9 they revealed what they worked upon and made loads of incorrect statements about Wayland. Obviously this resulted in pretty harsh response.

Wayland is quite usable in Fedora as well as various other distributions, so your "never go beyond talk": eh? This while Canonical delayed Wayland by not announcing they wouldn't help out with Wayland anymore.

<comment><USER8> The Qt-based phone OSes (Sailfish, LuneOS, Tizen, Plasma Mobile) all seem to have adopted Wayland. So the claim that Wayland was unsuitable for mobile seems hollow 4 years on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> _And when Canonical went mainstream, it became the focus of irrational hatred too._

Never hated them. I do however think they made themselves a huge disfavour by abandoning a proven recipe that people loved. I mean even I used Ubuntu because of its almost perfect Gnome, and I was traditionally a KDE person.

Summarized: they built a userbase of people who loved their flavour of Gnome, then suddenly swapped that for something completely unproven that _might_ be better but was very different - and expected us to continue to be fans just because they were Canonical.

Suddenly it turned out we weren't so much Canonical fans as fans of a polished free desktop that worked well.

</comment><comment><USER3> Among all the desktop distros, Ubuntu/Unity came closest to making me switch away from macOS. While I'm a programmer, my interests in the desktop are that of a simple user: I want stuff to work without me having to spend time actively keeping it alive, and I want some amount of polish and UX.

I also firmly believe in order to accomplish something, you sometimes have to be a pioneer and charge ahead in a direction the majority doesn't deem worthwhile, even if that means making mistakes and incurring aggressive dissent. Not everything can advance by committee or mass consensus.

Ubuntu de facto cancelling their desktop program to focus on the cloud sounds to me like the premature death of something that worked pretty well, at least for my use cases. I really hope that decision was not entirely based on petty open source community squabbling. I love Brian Lunduke (he has a pretty good open source podcast by the way), but I really find it hard to get behind his long-standing criticisms of Mir and Unity.

Among the arguments against Mir and Unity, I find the one based on _duplication of effort_ the hardest to swallow. Innovation is an exploratory process. Sometimes that means many people coming up with many solutions. In other areas of open source development this doesn't seem to be perceived as a problem. In fact, it's celebrated as a marker of freedom for giving the user a lot of choices.

But somehow, Ubuntu lost all of its public support, for no reason I can (as an outsider) readily identify. If this is symptomatic of the future of open source, it's a bad precedent.

<comment><USER10> > But somehow, Ubuntu lost all of its public support […]

That seems hyperbolic. Ubuntu is popular and pretty mainstream for a Linux distribution. That will always attract hate and virulent nay-saying, as well as valid and constructive criticism.

<comment><USER3> _> That seems hyperbolic._

I disagree. While it's probably impossible to come to an objective consensus about any matter of public discussion, at least the _vocal_ people all fall over themselves celebrating the death of Mir and Unity. It also seems to me the hatred toward these software packages prompted Ubuntu to abandon them in the first place, and mind you these were integral pieces that set the Ubuntu desktop apart from every other distro.

So, no, I don't think it's hyperbolic at all to come to this conclusion since we're talking about losing public support to the point of Canonical outright canceling two of their most distinguished programs.

<comment><USER9> _at least the vocal people all fall over themselves celebrating the death of Mir and Unity_

I'm close to celebrating the death of Unity but won't because:

1\. the damage is done. Ubuntu and Linux already lost a whole lot of momentum. We had a really nice desktop. We were selling it everywhere, looking forward to be able to justify paid support agreements.

2\. Some people actually seems to like Unity and while I really cannot see myself using it I think it would be offensive toward those if I celebrated loudly

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I assume Canonical wants to have some influence with Gnome and Wayland going forward. The nature of open source, and just working with groups of people for that matter, is that you have to build consensus before trying to push changes, especially big and visible changes.

Why would a volunteer coordinator (or paid contributor at a different company) even look at a contribution from another team that just called him anti-social if the code isn't perfectly in line with his goals.

Even if Mark is 100% right, his 'anti-social' shots are not a good way to build in-roads with the projects Canonical will be relying on.

</comment><comment><USER12> Some of the critical points raised against Canonical regarding Mir can be seen here:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(software)#Controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_\(software\)#Controversy)

This isn't a hate parade, it's the community speaking out against something they didn't want. Mostly related to licensing.

<comment><USER13> _Here is all of the stuff, filtered through Wikipedia 's editorial process that is intended to eliminate unfounded personal opinion, stuff from unidentifiable sources, nonsense, and bias. Look, it isn't a hate parade; therefore there is no hate parade as M. Shuttleworth claimed._ is a rather flawed argument, note.

<comment><USER12> > Here is all of the stuff, filtered through Wikipedia's editorial process > that is intended to eliminate unfounded personal opinion, stuff from > unidentifiable sources, nonsense, and bias. Look, it isn't a hate parade; > therefore there is no hate parade as M. Shuttleworth claimed.

Actually, that Wikipedia link is not meant as evidence against Shutterworth's comments or in defense of my own. It's provided merely as context to those who are just now hearing about this situation.

No, my comment regarding the lack of a hate parade is supported only by common sense. A position easily taken once one digs a bit deeper into this subject. You should click through some of the actual references mentioned in (and outside of) that Wikipedia article:

Matthew Garrett's comments, [http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/25376.html](http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/25376.html)

Bradley Kuhn's comments, [http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/07/07/harmony- harmful.html](http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2011/07/07/harmony-harmful.html)

Jonathan Riddell's comments, [https://blogs.kde.org/2013/06/26/kubuntu-wont- be-switching-m...](https://blogs.kde.org/2013/06/26/kubuntu-wont-be-switching- mir-or-xmir)

Aaron Seigo's comments, [https://plus.google.com/+AaronSeigo/posts/76Nd9RSTZWp](https://plus.google.com/+AaronSeigo/posts/76Nd9RSTZWp)

Then, tell me if these opinions or the community comments they generated actually seem hateful.

In fact, the only substantial hate generated by this debacle was really in response to Canonical's unfounded swipe at Wayland, which was later retracted, and Shutterworth branding of opponents as "The Open Source Tea Party". And even that level of grandstanding only generated a modicum of hate from the community in comparison to things like systemd or SELinux.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The "grab some popcorn" mentality is offensive. It's actually a symptom of this problem - people aren't taking critical discussion seriously. Everyone suffers because of this.

<comment><USER15> Privately finding a public spat amusing does not hurt anyone. It's a very human response. The problem is thinking that you are above it and looking down on people who are more in touch with their emotional responses. People who are not in touch with the unsavory parts of themselves set themselves up for depression and worse.

<comment><USER14> Sure, but this isn't private.

<comment><USER15> Being unable to even talk about it without someone calling it out drives it underground with the same bad effects.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> When canonical announced Mir, i was excited and thought let's try how this display server differs to X window system, in case if it didn't work to my taste, you can always switch back or try other ubuntu derivatives. Why need to hate it? It's free, you can try it or leave it.

When it comes to Open Source Software, hate is not the option, you use it or take the Source Code to change according to your needs, but if you are a common user just change the distro or change your opinion.

This is why you should Love Linux or any Open Source/Free Software : [https://goo.gl/eP6sy](https://goo.gl/eP6sy)

<comment><USER17> Could someone post the unshortened link?

<comment><USER18> Always good to remember for things like this:

        curl -s --head https://goo.gl/eP6sy | grep '^Location:'

<comment><USER17> Thanks, that's a pretty cool trick!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> He's talking about people complaining that Canonical are developing their own display server Mir, rather than using standards like Wayland. But people have a reason to be suspicious when a company doesn't want to play ball with others. Yes, they might have a great idea that nobody else has thought of, but rather more likely they have some plan for vendor lock-in.

<comment><USER20> At the time Mir was started, Wayland was not the standard (and lets be honest, still isn't - X is still the standard).

"Use the standard" doesn't ring true when there is none - and having multiple projects do the same thing is not a bad thing - they can learn from each other and try different approaches.

<comment><USER7> A few years before Mir started Canonical said Wayland would be the next thing. That was agreed upon across desktop environments, distributions, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Open source does not depend on financial rewards but emotional ones. Thus, I can somewhat relate why people become very emotional about software.

</comment><comment><USER22> Ubuntu has sizable market share in the Linux community. You can look no further than the Linux games available on Steam/GOG to see that many of them are offered _specifically_ for Ubuntu, not Linux.

The fact that Canonical was switching to Mir was of great concern, particularly to gamers, who were worried that AMD or NVIDIA would start pushing Mir-only graphical/driver patches at the expense of Xorg/Wayland patches, resulting in gamers being "locked in" to Ubuntu.

</comment><comment><USER23> Hate is a strong word. People can be very critical at times, myself included, but this isn't the same thing. People often vent frustrations and justify their own personal choices by criticising. It might often be a tad anti-social but I don't believe it is generally "hate". Personally I am sad to see less competition for the GNOME technology stack.

<comment><USER24> Couldn't it also be a very cultural thing:

For example I (German) have to deal with east European mathematicians in my job (they are actually really nice people). The kind of strictness that they treat people who present mathematical bullshit (they are typically right in their mathematical reasoning) is sometimes on the borderline of what is considered as impolite in Germany (and in the US probably even more).

I also went climbing with former Russians. I just say: What in their culture is considered as normal language is in Germany already considered as sexist (and US citizens would be deeply horrified :-) ).

TLDR: What is perfectly acceptable behavior can be deeply different in cultures.

<comment><USER25> Agreed, I have to remember myself that the hugging and kissing and close personal contact that is normal in Spain is considered offensive, sexual approach in north Europe or USA normally after some awkward situation.

This culture disagreements combines with only text communications in which people can't see the body language and tone of voice of others.

You add to it that people don't care about what they say on Internet like they care on reality. Specially after "text only" communication would require orders of magnitude more effort to express yourself without misunderstandings and most people only have limited time for it.

As a result you get an ugly thing.

<comment><USER24> > You add to it that people don't care about what they say on Internet like > they care on reality.

My impression about this is different.

My personal hypothesis (which might also be wrong) rather is that the internet is a mouthpiece for people who have strong opinions about some topic (which does not imply that they are wrong here) that few people in the "real world" care about. Since few people in the real world will be interested in this topic, these people often appear as nice people in the "real world", since hardly any discussions about the "heated" topic will accidentally happen there. The same happens if these people discuss about different topics in the internet. The main difference is in the internet there _are_ enough people that care about this exotic topic deeply enough to give contra (whether they have good points or not - at least they have a similar level of opionatedness). This leads to the impression that these people are toxic, etc.

TLDR: I believe the difference is not about how you say things in internet vs. real life, but about how you talk about your "opinionated topic" vs. something different _both in internet and real life_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The hatred for Ubuntu, Mir, Unity is increasingly irrational and difficult to understand.

Unity seems to be one of the more polished Linux desktops and there are many options, even if one doesn't like Unity or Mir there is zero compulsion to use them. Surely people investing their own time, effort and money to build free software and attract users is good thing?

But what then explains the hoarde of angry 'self appointed community spokespeople' singling out Ubuntu in every online discussion for NIH and duplication of effort.

By the same logic these community spokespeople should be accusing Flatpak of duplication of effort and NIH and haranguing Flatpak developers to join hands with the Snap project which precedes Flatpak. But all quiet on that end. This is a bit too hypocritical and seems to be more about some Redhat supporters seeking control than anything sincere.

How many Redhat, Gnome or Freedesktop projects are being targeted for NIH and duplication of effort the way Ubuntu's projects are.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> If there is one thing for which Canonical deserves some criticism is its insularity.

Many things Ubuntu end up being Ubuntu-only, sometimes for historical reasons, sometimes because a solution solves the problems Canonical has better and sometimes because things are done and few people know about them. Sometimes it's because Canonical is seen as an aggressive competitor. Launchpad is wonderful, but Github won. Bzr is not bad, but Git won. Unity is great for small screens, but Gnome 3 is an incredibly polished desktop environment and is clearly the future. Ubuntu phone is interesting, but Android clearly is unstoppable (and that has been clear for some time now).

It's really hard to compete with a whole industry by yourself.

Their software is good. They do awesome things but far too often they do it by themselves, without any help.

</comment><comment><USER27> Ubuntu was my first distro, and it was a great way to learn. I'm still enough of a n00b that I mostly use Debian stable. But when I need the latest versions of packages, I generally go for Ubuntu over Debian testing. However, I use Ubuntu server, and add my own desktop environment. Unity is just too much of a resource hog. I really can't afford to give more than 1GB RAM to a VM, because I use so many VMs.

</comment><comment><USER28> They did not want to work with community and community decided not to work with them. It is simple. Now what Mark do is name calling and anti social.

</comment><comment> a-smith I guess Shuttleworth deliberately wants to piss-off the Free Open Source project developers and users. Seems like a rather twisted, bipolar Trump like goal which if succeeds would server to Ghost Ubuntu. Perhaps mark Shuttleworth is having one of those Donald J. Trump 'bad hair' days. That doesn't however excuse such crass demonetization of a major Ubuntu userbase.

</comment><comment><USER29> Some non-free software folk are as well. In fact, I've heard that some non- software people are too!

</comment><comment><USER30> There are so many of those that love to hate, can't think which he is referring to.

<comment><USER31> Exactly, this has nothing to do with free software. Most people are so messed up mentally and emotionally these days that they react like injured animals to any kind of outside stimuli. In the end I'm pretty sure they hate themselves more than anything. Expressing anger over the obvious injustice in this shit world is one thing, flaming any one who threatens to rock your boat another.

<comment><USER32> There is this joke that there are two kinds of people, those that divide the world into two kinds and those that don't. Is this some kind of elaborate riff on that theme?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I blame (in part) the linux popularization approach that turned to drama to create a more compelling narrative. The now defunked linux action show for example. Having an opinion is cheap. People who have never contributed a line of code or donated a cent to a project think that by being super opinionated about systemd vs upstart or Mir vs wayland, that they can virtue signal how "l33t" they are. Then they justify their strong opinions with arguments about "fracturing and redundancy" but never anything technical because they actually know nothing. Telling those people to GTFO is both cathartic and better for the FOSS community. Right on Mark!

</comment><comment><USER34> That's funny, because Canonical's business model is based on anti-social behavior.

</comment><comment><USER35> And Mark is not even a dev in the `systemd` project...

EDIT: Noticed how I'm wasting karma point to be proven right by the ones that this article is all about: people that 'love to hate'.

<comment><USER36> Yeah, I can't imagine that to be a fun job either...

<comment><USER13> I believe that jbmorgado is making a more specific comparison than that, Lennart Poettering having in the past expressed similar sentiments to Mark Shuttleworth's here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> He's probably just angry that so many people went from Ubuntu to Linux Mint and his daydreams about becoming a kind of open source Bill Gates didn't really turn out as planned, even though Ubuntu is doing fine as distro.

He needs to chill out and listen more to the people who do the real work.

<comment><USER36> Or he's angry that people were all celebratory for him to _stop_ an investment that he'd done in good faith to improve things.</comment></comment>


Prioritising Features: Who'll Use It & How Often? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.intercom.io/prioritising-features-wholl-use-it-how-often/ <comment><USER2> I generally agree, except the caution points on the graph. It is possible "few people use all the time" is a big time-waster for you.

Or it is a break-point between tiers and you've really identified power users that you can charge more.</comment>


PyPy v5.9 Released - <AUTHOR> https://morepypy.blogspot.com/2017/10/pypy-v59-released-now-supports-pandas.html <comment><USER2> This is amazing -- we have a small mountain of Cython code, and almost everything is working out of the box!

Tests failing:

* [https://github.com/explosion/spaCy](https://github.com/explosion/spaCy)

Confirmed working:

* [https://github.com/explosion/thinc](https://github.com/explosion/thinc)

* [https://github.com/explosion/preshed](https://github.com/explosion/preshed)

* [https://github.com/explosion/cymem](https://github.com/explosion/cymem)

* [https://github.com/explosion/murmurhash](https://github.com/explosion/murmurhash)

I doubt spaCy will ever be faster on PyPy (the neural network library Thinc is currently 50% slower). It'd still be really great to get it running, so people who benefit from PyPy for other parts of their stack don't have to manage two Python environments.

<comment><USER3> Just keep rewriting C as Python. I still remember the day I switched from Numpy and CPython to array.array on PyPy for a 60x boost in benchmarks. (Only a 20x speedup on actual running code; this was for geometry generation in a networked video game server.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is great. Can't wait until Python 3.5 support is out of beta.

Just out of curiosity, I'd love to hear from others who've used PyPy for their web apps. Are there any issues to look out for? I remember that a few years ago, packages like psycopg2 were not compatible, which made the migration somewhat difficult. Would love to hear real-world experiences here.

<comment><USER5> I use PyPy almost exclusively. I like the availability of their precompiled binaries, and other peoples' benchmarking criticisms aside it's orders of magnitude faster than standard Python in all of my actual applications.

psycopg2cffi fixed the psycopg2 issue some time ago.

I've run into compatibility issues with packages that reference math-centric libs (matplotlib?) but aside from that I've been quite happy with it.

<comment><USER6> What kind of applications are you using it for?

Coincidentally I tried PyPy today for my shell, which is around 14K lines of completely unoptimized Python code [1]. I have never used PyPy before, despite being a long-time Python programmer.

I didn't expect PyPy to speed it up, just based on my impressions of the kind of workloads PyPy excels at.

In my first test case (parsing a 976 line shell script), PyPy took 2.0 seconds and Cpython took 1.0. And that 2x slower number held up for other a couple other tests.

I will probably try running the benchmark in a loop to see if PyPy's JIT warms up (does it do that?). But I wasn't really expecting to use PyPy -- I just wanted to see how it does, because there aren't many ways to speed up my code without rewriting a good portion of it.

My impression is that JITs don't work well in general for certain workloads, not just PyPy. IIRC LuaJIT is actually slower than Lua for string-processing workloads. It makes a lot of sense in say machine learning applications which are all floating point calculations. But string processing is probably dominated by allocations and locality, and the JIT doesn't do very much there, whether it's LuaJIT or PyPy.

[1] [http://www.oilshell.org/](http://www.oilshell.org/)

<comment><USER7> I'd love to see a benchmark on which LuaJIT is significantly slower than Lua, if you have a link.

<comment><USER6> I probably overstated... I don't think JITs including LuaJIT do much for string manipulation, but that would mean it's on par with Lua.

Off the top of my head I think of Lua/Python as 10-100x slower than C, but LuaJIT might get you within 2x for some numerical workloads. But it will not get you within 2x for string workloads -- it's still in the 10x or worse category.

Someone reported a slower benchmark here but the maintainer argued that is invalid. But he says all the time is within C functions, which is what I was getting at.

[https://www.freelists.org/post/luajit/Luajit-string- concaten...](https://www.freelists.org/post/luajit/Luajit-string- concatenation-performance,10)

A couple people mention string performance here, without many details:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12573981](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12573981)

I think the bottom line is that the semantics of Lua strings are completely different than how you manage strings in C, so there's a limit to how much you can optimize the program, even if you have a lot of time to (which the JIT does not.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The original title emphasises that NumPy and Pandas now are functional on PyPy.

The PyPy JIT cannot look inside C code, and crossing the python-c interface is slow, but give it a chance and you may be pleasantly surprised how fast your pure python code can run.

<comment><USER9> So do you think it is worth switching if you are using pandas and numpy heavily?

<comment><USER10> It depends: we are heavily invested in making both numpy and pandas faster, so next releases will improve that. That said, you are quite likely to find your program slower (but it really depends on what you do). It's a good time to experiment, but definitely not to fully switch just yet

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wonder if this will run apistar: [https://github.com/encode/apistar](https://github.com/encode/apistar) which is currently the fastest (python 3.6 generally) python web framework out there.

<comment><USER12> In my experience, the answer is nearly always "yes" for pure python code. Now that with the last few PyPy releases support the C API via emulation, the answer is probably still yes for any python package.

EDIT: apparently it does work [1] though not officially supported until/unless it can be tested on Travis CI.

[1] [https://github.com/encode/apistar/issues/130#issuecomment-29...](https://github.com/encode/apistar/issues/130#issuecomment-298233451)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> As I do with every PyPy release, I would like to point out that the PyPy official benchmarks for comparison against CPython[0] continue to misleadingly compare their latest and greatest with CPython 2.7.2 (released in 2011), as opposed to the modern CPython 2.7.13 or 3.5.3 versions for which they target API compatibility.

[0][http://speed.pypy.org](http://speed.pypy.org)

<comment><USER10> Hi

We should indeed compare PyPy3.5 vs CPython 3.5.3, but having a benchmark suite that works on both continuous to be a problem.

Regarding 2.7.13 - you might find it surprising, but it's actually SLOWER than 2.7.2, there has been no speed improvements and quite a few speed decreases, so we decided to keep the faster one.

EDIT: part of the problem is that comparing PyPy 2 vs CPython 3 is apples vs oranges, but PyPy3 is not ready yet (unicode improvements I'm working on right now are missing)

<comment><USER13> > Regarding 2.7.13 - you might find it surprising, but it's actually SLOWER > than 2.7.2, there has been no speed improvements and quite a few speed > decreases, so we decided to keep the faster one.

I don't find it that surprising, but do find it disappointing that you would run benchmarks against the current version, but not post them online for perusal, nor provide any sort of explanation for the use of the older version in head-to-head comparisons. For me, at least, it produces the impression that PyPy has something to hide, and I doubt I'm the only one.

<comment><USER10> Yes, I'm really sorry.

This is the usual case of budget - if I had budget to have anyone improve the website, improve the buildbot, improve the benchmark comparison, trust me I would do it. Right now there are no volunteers and the benchmark side is sort of lingering on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is there a list of well-known c-extensions for which PyPy is known to work or for which there are well-maintained cpyext ports ?

Update: found it at [https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home](https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home)

</comment><comment><USER15> Was surprised to see Cython support on this list. Can somebody elaborate on the relationship between the two? I had always viewed them as alternatives.

<comment><USER16> Cython is a way of writing compiled code that links against Python in a way that's easier than than using the Python.h API directly.

There are two things you can do with this. The first is you can write your performance-sensitive code directly in Cython, in which case, yes, that's a direct competitor to PyPy. (So is writing your performance-sensitive code directly in C and using Python.h to expose it to Python as a native-code module.)

The second is that you can write bindings to existing C (or C-ABI-compatible, really) code in Cython, instead of using C and Python.h to write those bindings. In that case, it's not quite that you care about the performance of your C code, but that it already exists, and you just need to call into it somehow. Having PyPy be able to use these existing codebases is valuable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Is PyPy _ideally_ plug'n'play, i.e. is it supposed to be able to seamlessly replace the CPython interpreter ( _ideally_ in that it may not factually be completely compatible, but is it aimed to be completely compatible)?

<comment><USER3> No. There's a documented list of things that are different. [0] That said, you likely don't have many of these issues in your code, if any. The ideal is for folks who write portable pure Python without relying on implementation- specific details to be able to run on PyPy and CPython without any hacks.

[0] [http://pypy.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cpython_differences.htm...](http://pypy.readthedocs.io/en/latest/cpython_differences.html)

<comment><USER17> Thanks for the link!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Thanks @fijal and team for all the effort! This is awesome.

The last update on the Pypy+Pandas wiki[0] is from this August, and it mentions that there are still 15 outstanding failing tests. Does this release mean that 5.9 is now at 100% parity? What does the same metric look like for Pypy+Numpy, and where can that one be tracked if not 100% yet?

I am looking forward to migrating some pipelines over to 5.9 soon.

[0] [https://bitbucket.org/pypy/pypy/wiki/cpyext_2_-_cython_and_p...](https://bitbucket.org/pypy/pypy/wiki/cpyext_2_-_cython_and_pandas)

<comment><USER8> As you point out there are still a few failing tests. The The number of failing tests on both is very low but not zero. The PyPy team has had good collaboration with Pandas and NumPy, but there are some deeper issues with these packages depending on refcount semantics in some edge cases, IMO rarely seen in real world scenarios. For numpy this means using an out keyword argument can be tricky, and for Pandas it means some galse positives in determining when a dataframe is being held by another reference, making it read-only

Of course if your workflow depends on those features, they are critical. We are working on full compatibility and also on increasing speed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I am glad to hear it!</comment>


Why We Forget Most of the Books We Read - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/01/what-was-this-article-about-again/551603/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> Our brains are built to forget so anything that's considered unimportant is likely to be forgotten. A perfect example is why we can enjoy the same TV shows many many times, not just once. With video or film, we are saturated with information, there's no way we can capture everything we see and hear and even what's capture is quickly forgotten since it's mostly unimportant. With books, most of us read books at a very comfortable place and pace. Also, we read at relatively fast pace vs our ability to analyze so we understand but don't send the knowledge to our long-term memory. At best we can give a fast summary of what was read, something like a 300 pg book into a few paragraphs- even if we re-read a book. So, in essence, we read for entertainment, not education or recall.

The only way to fight forgetfulness is to slow down and analyze, summarise and recall. Start thinking in terms of book reports. Another possibility is to read many books on the same subject but even then you have to fight the urge to ignore something because you think you know it.

Reading for education and recall is not a given you have to work at it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> In "Binge-Reading Disorder," an article for The Morning News, Nikkitha Bakshani analyzes the meaning of this statistic. "Reading is a nuanced word," she writes, "but the most common kind of reading is likely reading as consumption: where we read, especially on the internet, merely to acquire information. Information that stands no chance of becoming knowledge unless it 'sticks.'"

Or, as Horvath puts it: "It's the momentary giggle and then you want another giggle. It's not about actually learning anything. It's about getting a momentary experience to feel as though you've learned something."</comment>


Jennifer Widom's db-class Retrospective: From 100 Students to 100,000 - <AUTHOR> http://wp.sigmod.org/?p=165

<comment><USER2> I really like the idea of having more varied, interactive lectures in person. Some of my recent cs classes have been like that, and I found them much more interesting.

It's nice when the entire lecture involves students and when the lectures are not afraid to cover things outside the exams: for example, for my AI class, we had the lead scientist from IBM's Watson team give a talk and then spent several lectures just learning about the cool sorts of things you can do with AI in the real world (autonomous helicopters :)). This was a great finish to the class: it showed where and how the techniques we learned are actually used in a very interesting way.

</comment><comment><USER3> I took the class and completed it - (but was not of the elite who achieved perfect scores). It was a well structured class with great presentation and had the best interactive exercises I have seen for a tech course.

Dr. Widom and her team did a tremendous job.

<comment><USER4> Absolutely agree, it is a perfect example of how an online class should be executed. The amazing Dr. Widom had shown how it needs to be done.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's nice to read the it was a rewarding experience for professor Widom as well. I attended the course and thought it was excellent - I wrote about it here: [http://henrikwarne.com/2011/12/18/introduction-to- databases-...](http://henrikwarne.com/2011/12/18/introduction-to-databases-on- line-learning-done-well/)</comment>


Ask HN: What smartphone to get right now? - <AUTHOR> I am currently on an AT&T family plan in the US. I currently do not have a smartphone, and it is annoying because as a tech person, I feel like I am falling behind the curve. However, I have been hearing all kinds of disappointments with new phones lately, so I ask: if you were to buy a phone today, which would you buy? Or would it be worth waiting for a little while to see how other phones pan out?<p>Extra info:<p>-I run linux, not sure if this is a problem for iphone<p>-I want to become familiar with the technologies that will help me understand the capabilities and limitations of smart phone apps today. Not sure if iphone is significantly more important in this regard than android right now<p>-I would like to stay on AT&T but can leave if necessary <comment> old-gregg Nexus One. I'm surprised you're even asking. Fully Linux-friendly, hackable, powerful and doesn't have any crapware from carriers or hardware manufacturers. Buy it at full price and sign up for a $59/mo month-to-month plan from T-Mobile. Enjoy built-in tethering and guaranteed upgrade to the latest version of Android.

I own N1 and iPhone 4 and I believe that N1 is a superior phone. It doesn't need to be plugged to a computer for everything and as a phone it works much better on TMobile than iPhone does on AT&T: the reception is worse on the iPhone, it wouldn't accept MMS or SMS with non-English characters in 2010. WTF. The software (Android) is totally in a different league too: integration with Google calendars, maps and contacts is truly amazing, and you quickly get used to your phone automatically recognizing phone numbers and addresses in arbitrary text.

Another huge thing is Google Voice: you can dial any number straight from your address book without even worrying which country you're calling to, that's mind blowing to me (and I use it daily).

I bought both because we're doing software development for both, but I'm not proficient enough to comment on their APIs and programming environments. I do prefer Objective-C to Java though

<comment><USER6> The choice of Java is one of the most mind-boggling things to me. There must be so many developers turned off of the platform because of it.

Luckily, you can now distribute Python scripts as APKs ([http://code.google.com/p/android- scripting/wiki/SharingScrip...](http://code.google.com/p/android- scripting/wiki/SharingScripts#Scripts_as_APK)).

<comment><USER7> Java isn't ideal, but I much prefer it to ObjC. You can also "in theory" use any language that compiles to the JVM, like Scala: [http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/scala- ide/Developing_for_A...](http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/scala- ide/Developing_for_Android)

Thanks for the Python APK link, last time I checked you couldn't deploy standalone Python apps but now I can play with it.

<comment><USER8> I submit that if you take the time to learn Objective-C you'll feel quite differently.

I've learned many languages in my years, while neither Java nor Objective-C is my favorite language right now (erlang is, though I haven't used it for awhile) they both were at different points in my life.

I hated Objective-C for the first week or two, then came to understand it, and saw how it was so much better than Java.

Of course, Java means both the language syntax and the frameworks, and half of what makes Objective-C so great is the frameworks.

Don't let syntax hang you up... you have to get over the syntax hassle to really understand a language. If you want "bad" syntax, look at erlang. That was tough, I had to force myself to learn it, but once I did, the syntax became a non-issue.

Objective-C has every advantage Java does, but the converse is not the case.

<comment><USER7> _I submit that if you take the time to learn Objective-C you'll feel quite differently._

I've used ObjC for many years and released several Cocoa apps. The syntax isn't the problem; I actually rather like the brackets.

 _Objective-C has every advantage Java does, but the converse is not the case._

No garbage collection (on iOS at least), inherently unsafe, primitive types requiring silly [NSNumber numberWithInt:x] contortions, header files, no namespaces...

<comment><USER9> Ya, managing memory in objective-c (again, on iOS) is a colossal pain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> No one is mentioning the HTC Evo (which you would want to mod to r00ted Android 2.2), which I totally love.

The screen is HUGE, to the point that it almost becomes a tablet - yet it is still a phone. The screen makes the phone a little big, but given that the screen goes practically up to the edge of the phone on all sides, it's efficiently proportioned. And I find I can get v productive on it - <USER2> longer emails, reading ebooks, etc.

I get all the benefit of Android (see elsewhere in this thread), Sprint (which is actually v good coverage in SF and other metros), 4G coming soon and unlimited plans for $59. Wifi tethering is free if you r00t the phone.

You won't have any problems with running linux with it (for a start you don't really have to connect it to a computer for anything unlike the iPhone) whereas it's practically impossible to run iPhone + linux effectively (via Wine basically, urghh)

<comment><USER11> Agreed i used my friend's EVO and she laughed saying your iPhone 3G looks like a Palm Treo circa 2005. Which I agreed. The EVO's screen is awesome; better then the iPhone 4.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Get an N900. I've had an iPod touch for close to a year and a BB curve 8900 for 1.5 year. I still use the former for music, but no longer for browsing or apps and I've entirely replaced the latter. As a developer there are just layers and layers of goodies to be found. Hint: forget about the Ovi and Maemo Select pointers pre-packaged on the phone and go straight to maemo.org for apps, that's where the interesting stuff for a techie is. The only caveat here that you have to be aware is that Nokia has folded all Maemo efforts into MeeGo (a merge with Intel's Moblin.) So to an extent there seems to be an evolutionary disconnect, but keep in mind that the N900 is THE device used by MeeGo dev teams (a slew of people from Intel and Nokia).

Android is still very much on my radar but for purely professional reasons. The fact of the matter is that having used Linux since '95 there is nothing in that environment that even closely resembles a Linux environment, despite it using the Linux kernel (i.e. the user-space has nothing to do with a classic Linux user-space.) In addition, while their platform is "open", their development process isn't. IOW, you get code-drops every so often with no possibility of participating and/or looking into the bleeding edge. Meego, on the other hand, has been engineered with that in mind.

<comment><USER13> The N900 is an interesting beast.

If my father called, and asked me what smartphone to get, I'd suggest an Android device.

If an old friend called, who happened to be familiar with Linux, I'd advise the N900 with no reservations. The N900 is more open than Android in that it uses the traditional APIs used on the Linux desktop. You can install pidgin, irssi, otr, asterisk, and just about everything else that is popular with Linux. It even comes with an xterm app by default.

The N900 also has incredible integration with Skype, including video. It also supports adding SIP accounts. Both Skype and SIP work very well over 3G on T-Mobile US.

<comment><USER14> > Both Skype and SIP work very well over 3G on T-Mobile US.

Interesting, where? I have an N900 on T-Mobile in Boston and it's been very disappointing. I had visions of a "data only" relationship with the phone, but neither Skype nor SIP over 3G are of acceptable quality. Over wifi, works pretty well, though.

How have you set yours up? I tried Google Voice -> Gizmo5, buying a skype number, and some other things and nothing worked. For instance, the phone can't seem to handle an incoming SIP call and phone call at the same time -- so I couldn't forward my Google Voice number to both my actual cell number and SIP, and answer with either depending on the situation.

Then, I have general issues with the phone -- no good maps solution (the Nokia program is terrible, and can't use Google Maps), email is painfully slow to open and inconsistent about polling every 5 minutes like I want it to, I've hung up on incoming calls several times because the "Answer" button gets replaced by the "Hang up and send a text message" button when I'm taking it out of my pocket, etc.

All in all, I've been somewhat disappointed with the phone.

<comment><USER13> I'm currently in Northwest Arkansas. Skype calls work just about as well as SIP calls over 3G, which is to say the same quality as regular calls over GSM. I've used my old Gizmo account with SIP, as well as Callcentric and Skype. No issues.

With respect to maps and email, you have a point. The N900 is not up to speed there.

It's a good geek phone, but not something I'd recommend to my parents.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> What a coincidence, today, several years after using several high end, cutting edge smart phones of many kinds (Symbian/RIM/Android), I simply took my SIM card and insert it into an old Nokia 3110c ( <http://www.google.com/images?q=nokia%203110> ), I have found in my drawer.

It just a lightweight phone which easy to use as a phone (dial, read/write text messages).

Let us face it. Anywhere I am (home or office) I have at least 4 different ways to connect to the web and waste my time over there [;-)].

<comment><USER16> Until about five months ago, I had been using the legendary Motorola F3 ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_FONE_F3> ) for something like two years. Amazing phone, just the absolute basics: even SMS messaging was somewhat difficult. Due to it's e-ink display the battery lasts almost a week. It was a great conversation piece too.

 _Let us face it. Anywhere I am (home or office) I have at least 4 different ways to connect to the web and waste my time over there [;-)]._

Actually, it was for this reason that I moved on to a blackberry, I was constantly spending time checking my email. Naturally, by the time you open your browser you go on to check other things etc etc. Now I write (personal) emails almost exclusively from my blackberry and it has made me much more productive.

I would have gotten and Android if there had been a model with physical keyboard which I could have gotten, but alas it was not the case.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Given that you're satisfied with AT&T, I'd recommend the iPhone 4. However, Linux support is non-existent. You can use iTunes via WINE, but experiences have been varied.

Luckily, you don't really need iTunes all that much. You only really need iTunes for activation, and that can be done for you at the Apple Store. Media and app purchases can all be done on the phone itself. As for synchronization of data: I recommend Google's services, which integrate nicely with the iPhone --- Apple's MobileMe works best on Mac and Windows.

If you decide to go for Android, I'd recommend the Samsung Galaxy S, which on AT&T is called Samsung Captivate. It's the closest thing out there to an iPhone 4.

<comment><USER18> Without iTunes you will have no way to backup or apply system updates. It's not worth it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I was fortunate enough to be given a Nexus One at a Google developer day and really love it (not just because it was free). My wife now uses my iPhone 3G and, playing with that handset from time to time, I wouldn't go back to it. If you're in the UK, I know Vodafone supply them. Or, if you're in the US, you can just buy one as an unlocked developer phone: [http://android- developers.blogspot.com/2010/08/nexus-one-dev...](http://android- developers.blogspot.com/2010/08/nexus-one-developer-phone.html)

</comment><comment><USER20> Samsung Captivate. It has similar quality display with iphone's display and has the best mobile graphics at right now. It doesn't have a front camera, though.

I would wait until November/December until some Android 3.0 phones come out with better UI, next generation dual core CPU's, better graphics, higher resolution, 1 GB RAM, etc

</comment><comment><USER21> There's no one-size-fits-all solution. Since both Android and iOS have parity for basic functionality either would be a good choice. For third party apps most of the interesting stuff is still happening on the iPhone. There may be equivalent Android apps (ports or clones) but in my opinion it's still a second class platform. Especially when you get into multimedia apps, creative apps, games, etc. On the hardware side the iPhone has probably the best display out there and one of the best cameras. Availability of regular software updates are worth considering too. If you want the wild-west experience there's a pretty healthy selection via JailBreak.

If you can wait a few months it may be worth seeing which phones are going to get Android 3.0. The N1 probably will but all bets are off with HTC and Samsung. I'd say most of their phones sold today will get it eventually but who knows when. Both HTC and Samsung totally dropped the ball on the 1.x->2.x transition. Motorola hasn't experienced a major OS update yet so it's not clear if they will be better prepared. The gimping of 2.2 features for the original Droid is not an encouraging sign. I would suggest a Super AMOLED screen if you want to use your phone outdoors. Maybe wait for the next device Google adopts as a developer reference platform?

<comment><USER22> Just pointing out that the N1 is HTC.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I was in the exact situation about four month ago and i decided to go with the N900, my considerations were:

1\. I wanted a phone that is not Completely closed

2\. I don't care about the eye candy

3\. I run Linux - Anything that is not 100% compatible is out of the question

4\. I Wanted a real keyboard - i just can't get used to those on-screen keyboards

5\. I wanted Skype support out of the box

6\. REAL multitasking

So I obviously ruled the IPhone out first. Other than eye-candy and hype i couldn't find any good reason to actually want to own one. I have to say - <USER3> is a beautiful phone, but I'm the kinda guy that want something practical.

My two real contenders were the N1 (the best android phone at the time) and the N900. The N900 won eventually since:

1\. the keyboard is one of the best i had used.

2\. It is a Nokia which in my opinion means a better build than HTC.

3\. It's almost a Full Linux box - I could take almost any application i have on my box and recompile it with minimal effort for the N900 (it can use either GTK or QT)

4\. For some odd reason i really like resistive screens (once you get used to pushing a little ,it feels a lot more accurate than capacitives)

With all that said, for anyone thats not a total Linux geek like me - <USER4> android phone will be the phone i recommend to anyone who asks. its obviously the place to go now.

The community behind android is growing rapidly, which means it will progress faster and become more polished with every release.

<comment><USER24> All good points and the same reason I went with the N900. My only complaints being the screen isn't the best (res is fine but brightness and saturation aren't as nice as htc desire or iphone)

It really is the ultimate geek phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Get an iPhone 4. You're already on AT&T, and you'd like to stay there.

I love my iPhone 4. Nothing out there is nearly as good, especially when you're looking at the screen on this thing!

</comment><comment><USER26> iPhone 4, if like me, you think user experience and ease of use are the most important factors in a device you use 20-30 time a day while on the go.

Droid 2 on verizon (out in about a month I believe) if you have philosophical objections to Apple or want freedom from syncing with your laptop. The original droid is still a great phone and was pretty well designed. Droid 2 will have better hardware and battery life than the original while keeping the same design.

<comment><USER27> >Droid 2 on verizon (out in about a month I believe) if you have philosophical objections to Apple

...or if you want a professionally functional notification system, or widgets, or strong universal voice support, or...

Seriously, whenever someone starts in with "philosophical objection" they're propping up a garbage strawman. I choose Android because, in a hundred and one ways, it provides me a more usable, more powerful, more useful device.

<comment><USER26> Having used both in real life and for development my OPINION is that iPhone if far and away the best device on the market.

A lot of people I associate with who own Android phones agree with me yet they tell me they refuse support Apple's policies and are voting with their dollar. And I completely understand their view point. Do you?

<comment><USER27> >Having used both in real life and for development my OPINION is that iPhone if far and away the best device on the market.

And, having used both devices in real life and for development, the Nexus One is the best device on the market (if the Galaxy S Pro had 2.2, I'd easily choose it as the market leader). In fact after using an Android device for a while, and trying to go back to an iPhone 4 for a while, the completely gimped notification system (which, to me, is the #1 requirement of a smartphone), and the lack of widgets, made it feel absolutely crippled.

So where does that leave us? Sounds like a couple of people with opinions.

Saying that the iPhone is the best and people who choose otherwise do so for philosophical reasons is absolute _garbage_ , and you're just messaging your own ego and choices, betraying a fundamental insecurity. I choose Android because it's, "far and away", the best platform in my opinion.

<comment><USER28> You called the original poster out on making an absolute statement, and he clarified it was his experience, gathered from the people he knew. The first sentence in your final paragraph seems to deliberately disregard what he said to maintain outrage.

<comment><USER27> >You called the original poster out on making an absolute statement

No, I didn't. I called them out for stereotyping why someone would choose something other than the iPhone.

It's akin to saying "The Nexus One is the best device, but I can understand that if you're gay, a follower, or strongly susceptible to marketing pressure, the iPhone might be a better device for you". (You know, instead of finding it to be the right device for them)

The outrage is about the strawman.

<comment><USER28> In this context, I don't see how "making an absolute statement" is significantly different from stereotyping someone. He owned up to it and clarified where he felt his point applied.

I now understand that he meant to say that among the people he knows, they consider the iPhone the better choice objectively, but some choose Android for ethical reasons. I don't see why you don't see that as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I just got an iPhone4 so obviously that would be my recommendation. I don't think you could go wrong with it or one of the new Android phones.

Since you're already on AT&T and don't mind staying I wonder if you could buy one phone and try it out for a couple weeks and then take it back and try another. That's the only way to really find out about each (Android vs. iOS) since most discussion on the internet about them has reached emacs vs. vi level.

<comment><USER30> If he's running Linux I'd be hesitant to recommend an iPhone 4, but I've never tried. I suspect lack of iTunes would be annoying. Is there a good iTunes substitute on Linux now?

<comment><USER31> I'm an iPhone user & Linux-only person for the last 2 years and my experience with the iPhone has been great.

<comment><USER30> What do you use to put music and movies on?

<comment><USER31> I don't watch movies on it, but I get music from iTunes (on the phone), my NPR radio app, and Pandora.

<comment><USER32> Is it possible to move your own mp3's to the phone?

<comment><USER31> Not that I'm aware of.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I have an HTC Desire and I'm really happy with it.

Recently, the Google Maps Navigation has been activated here in Italy (with voice search, which I thought was available exclusively on the Nexus One).

Last week HTC released an OTA update with android 2.2, which also added an app for tethering over wifi (tethering via USB was already available) and 720p video recording.

<comment><USER34> I'm with you on this. It's basically the Nexus One hardware, with some quite minor differences and some HTC-specific Android customizations. It was already pretty darn good, but with last week's OTA-upgrade to Froyo, i'd say it's an excellent smartphone.

<comment><USER35> The main hardware differnce is that the Desire has real buttons (back, home, menu etc) wheres the Nexus One has soft buttons without the same level of touch feedback.

<comment><USER36> can't Desire do haptic feedback like EVO 4G? (if you're looking for a feedback)

for me the problem is rather with soft buttons being inadvertently activated when using the device in landscape mode, not the feedback.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> If you don't want your photos tagged with your phone's S/N# and don't want your text input logged, Android may be the choice for you.

[http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/2553828,CST-NWS- iphone01....](http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/2553828,CST-NWS- iphone01.article?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+hackernewsyc+%28Hacker+News+YC%29)

</comment><comment><USER38> Android on the carrier of your choice, hands down. My wife and I recently switched from a pair of iPhones to a Droid and HTC Incredible, respectively. Using our phones (and integrated Google Voice) is like a breath of fresh air. Between leaving AT&T, the customizability of the OS that my wife likes, and the developer freedom that I like, I can't imagine us making a better choice.

</comment><comment><USER39> I was in the same situation and went with the Captivate (and Im in a pizza place posting from it right now). Its a really nice device. Its my first smartphone so I cant fully compare but I can say why I chose it.

1\. The Galaxy S is going to be a big device on many carriers. 2\. Reviews said the battery life is the best around for android. 3\. I wanted background apps.

The display isnt quite as sharp as the iPhone for text but it is a joy to use. Im not so thrilled with the apps I cant uninstall but Ill probably root the device to take care of that. Oh and the touch mechanism is really good. Ive never written something as long as this post before and Ive only had 4 mistaps.

I cant compare it to other experiences but Im very happy with it.

</comment><comment><USER40> I've been an iPhone fanboy (I admit it) since the first generation. I even waited in line for 13 hours for the iPhone 3g. I've spent over $1000 on iPhones and accessories now (I've probably made most of it back considering I sell the old one when I get a new one). I was completely dedicated to Apple and its magical phone. But one day I got a little curious. A friend of mine got the Droid and was in love with it. I figured that I should at least give the Android platform a shot so as soon as Google announced the Nexus One for AT&T I had it ordered and in my hands the next day. I must admit at first I was incredibly angry with the UI, it felt very clunky. Also the touchscreen keyboard was awful and wasn't even close to the accuracy of the iPhone's keyboard. After the first two days with the phone I was a little depressed that I had really just shelled out $500 for this junk.

I stuck with it though, and the Nexus One eventually grew on me. What I started to realize was that it was a phone that wasn't built to be pretty or cute but rather useful. For example, all alerts that came in I would know about via the trackball lighting up a particular color (I had red=text or missed call, green=email, blue=twitter @reply). The status bar also made it very easy to see what was happening on my phone without ever having to actually unlock it. Finally I didn't constantly have to unlock my phone, go to app X and see what just came in. Because the marketplace is so lenient, I found everything I could ever want in regards to apps. Wifi Hotspot creator, LED Flashlight app, NES emulator, eBook readers, etc. It's all there and the majority are free. I never paid for one app on my Nexus One and it did so much more than any iPhone I ever owned. Sure, the apps are never quite as polished but you get over it and start appreciating the functionality. On top of that, being allowed to put whatever I want on my phone by simply mounting the SD card is amazing. Not having to deal with iTunes BS was so liberating.

Unfortunately, Jobs did an amazing job of hyping the iPhone4 and I switched back over. I've never been more disappointed in my life. I dropped maybe 2 calls the entire time I had the Nexus One. Literally the first call I made on my new iPhone4 was dropped within a minute. The antenna problem was real, and it almost ended my current relationship. My girlfriend stopped talking to me on the phone and resorted to texts only. Thanks Steve! After being spoiled by the usefulness of Android the iPhone feels like such a toy. You can only see one push notification at a time, if another notification comes in the last one is erased, I feel like they force me to be using the phone at all times or else I'm going to miss something. I can't even switch back because I sold my Nexus One to my roommate, who rubs it in every chance he gets.

At least my free bumper came in yesterday. Oh did I mention with the new bumper I can't use any standard 1/8" headphone jack other than Apple's ear buds? So every time I want to listen to music I have to take the bumper off...awesome.

<comment><USER41> I second your opinion - I switched from 3GS to Samsung Galaxy S. Completely correct that it's not polished like the iPhone, but being able to mount the phone as your choice of device is just, as you said, liberating. Have an AVI movie? No problem, just drop it on the device, it plays. Oh, it's in MPEG? No problem.

Swype is cool too, I now can't live without it -- in fact, I stopped using my native tongue in SMS form because it's THAT much easier to type in English.

Oh, now I also have an SFTP client, an SSH client, turn-by-turn navigation, WiFi analyzer -- all for free. Pretty soon, I will get tethering. The only downside to my particular phone is the AT&T crapware you can't get rid of, and it infuriates me that I have to root the phone to delete it. But even that is better than having to deal with iTunes.

<comment><USER9> +1 for swype. It's actually the thing that absolutely keeps me from considering an iPhone going forward (at least until Apple adopts it). I'm 3x faster than I ever was even on a physical keyboard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> gfr, are you writing a book or something? you've done 8 Ask HN's and only ever posted 2 comments...

<comment><USER42> i'm going to guess you work for some company (hopefully htc, samsung, lg, or apple) and i'll tell you exactly what i want from a smartphone and why it's a bad time to buy one right now.

first of all it seems like every month two new "iphone killers" are released. they all have the same functionality, they are all the same size, and they all require you purchase the same one of five service choices. until that changes, what's the point of upgrading.

in the recent past, the netbooks, then the kindle and then the ipad appeared and it made people realize that their smartphone was not everything they wanted out of their devices. so now there's a slew of new features entering smartphones and will be for the next 6-12 months.

but what i want is simple. it's not some way to turn a phone into a tablet and it's not some way to turn a laptop into a tablet and it's certainly not some way to turn a laptop into a phone. i want 3 devices that all sync:

(1) a laptop for development, storage, and other processing power needs (i have this one)

(2) a tablet that's smaller than the ipad but bigger than the iphone (dell streak?) it needs to fit in my pocket (barely) but not have to load the mobile version of many webpages

(3) a watch phone with very limited apps (phone, text, stopwatch, notes, etc) because i don't want my smartphone at the beach, on a hike, on a bikeride etc, but i DO want a phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Samsung G phones, using the android OS, are available on all carriers...

I'm with Verizon and their version, Samsung Fascinate is expected sooon, likely after the launch of the Droid 2

</comment><comment><USER44> I have had excellent luck with my Nokia E72. It does not have iphone app capabilities, nor android, but it makes an excellent smartphone, and I love the hardware.

</comment><comment><USER45> Iphone UI is a little bit better. Android is open and google products works very well on these phones. Regarding development it's easier to develop apps for andorid. Only problem is fragmentation. Different screen sizes and os versions can make lot of troubles.

<comment><USER46> Another problem is the set of countries you can buy programs from Android market, and even smaller set where you are able to sell your own.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I just spent some time with the Samsung Galaxy S (T Mobile) last night. I was very impressed. The lightest smart phone I have played with at that size. The screen is great, not as good as iPhone 4 but still one of the better ones. It came preloaded with Avatar in HD. Tt's not the best selling point but a good way to demo the phone and I was impressed by the quality once again.

Now the most impressive part was Swype keyboard. First time using it after seeing it 2 years ago at Techcrunch 50. Basically, once you use that keyboard pattern its tough to go back. I think you should be able to install that on any Android device.

I use iPhone 4 day to day. Pretty happy with it, apart from the service.

</comment><comment><USER48> Personally I've been using Blackberry handsets for years, including currently the Bold 9700 since it came out.

I use email a huge amount so that's a large factor for me, but I've actually not had any complaints in other areas. Browser isn't exactly amazing, but is easily good enough for what I need it for... I use twitter a fair bit and have a great app for that... I don't want to play games / watch films / read books on it... and all round it's just a really nice phone.

</comment><comment><USER49> personally I went for a Samsung Galaxy S, (A8 processor, Android, 4" AMOLED screen) this was more of a leveraged bet on Android, and a decent processor, than anything else, 3G network in the UK.

Like you I had delayed, but in the end I went with Android because of the rapid iteration model of the platform as opposed to the curated nature of the Apple Product/Service. Not to mention the hackability of the Android platform. YMMV

<comment><USER50> Been quite happy with my Galaxy S as well. I was actually going to get an iPhone 4 but the local carrier kept giving "dunno" as the availability date and number of units expected; at this point I am glad I opted out.

The UI/UX is not _quite_ as good as i4 and the market is not yet comparable to the AppStore but I cannot really complain too much about either fact. Froyo update should arrive sometime in the next month or two though the 2.1 is usually snappy enough already.

Someone also mentioned the U.S. (rebranded?) version does not have a front camera - my phone does. I am not sure if this is the case, but might pay special attention to that if it is important.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Ubuntu 10.04 Lucid Lynx supports the iPhone 4 out of the box: <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PortableDevices/iPhone>

</comment><comment><USER52> I was in a similar situation about a month ago -- no smartphone, felt like I was falling behind.

I ended up getting an iPhone, because it's what people have now, and there's probably a bigger market for contract work on it right now. I also have a Mac, though. Longer-term, I'm betting on Android to overtake the other platforms (mostly as a matter of cost), but it's still in the stage where startups and early-adopter types are the main users, as opposed to the very mainstream iPhone.

</comment><comment><USER53> Samsung Galaxy i9000 currently best smartphone on the market. 4 inch super amoled display. 16 GB of built in storage. Supports up to 32GB micro SD.

Also runs on android so you are safe from Steve craziness and Steve tax (unlocked costs half of iPhone 4 16GB).

Most powerful GPU. Runs Quake 3 like a charm: [http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/50507-galaxy-s- thra...](http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/50507-galaxy-s-thrashes- nexus-one-in-quake-3-duel)

</comment><comment><USER54> got an iPhone to test it for a week, and the first thing I did was to msg my friends, got some replies, and some SPAM. If I needed to delete the spam, I had to press the msg line to get into the msg, then 'Edit' to edit the conversation, then touch the msg then 'delete' button below. Still the conversation albeit empty, stood there. Usability sucks.... I did all these with two clicks in my N72 Nokia, and the Nexus or HTC Evo is far better for me to use than iPhone. I love the way iPhone handles things, its fonts, its colorfulness, and the easier input (size and accuracy of touch space) but I would give it to a girl who needs them to be 'cute' pets rather than a work horse and easy to manage organizer/'get your work done fast' device a nerd like me would need. Android anyday, but then iPhone is the mother of all smartphones since they were the reason the smartphones entered mainstream, and we are having this conversation. Apple is the best for 'cute/beautiful' UI, usability?? - <USER5>

</comment><comment><USER55> I think you should wait and have a look at Dell Streak. The word is that it would be around $500 without a contract

</comment><comment><USER56> My wife just got a Droid X, I've got the IPhone 4 and I am very jealous. Her phone is amazing.

</comment><comment><USER57> The site I'm working on doesn't address your linux constraint, but it exists to help you make exactly this type of decision:

<http://www.measy.com/quiz/category/smartphones>

</comment><comment><USER58> Do you like to tweak things? If so get some variety of Android. If you don't get an iPhone. The iPhone will "just work" but it won't do nearly as much as Android.

I have had both (+ win mobile) and prefer android by a long shot.

</comment><comment><USER59> Sony Ericsson Xperia X10 mini pro. Small enough to comfortably fit in any pocket while still offering all the smartphone and android goodness you want. Plus it has a real hardware keyboard for easy text entry.

</comment><comment><USER60> I've had an HTC Wildfire for a couple of months and love it. It's basically a smaller version of the Desire. I develop on it too. It works fine. Best phone I've ever had by some margin.

</comment><comment><USER61> I bought a HTC Hero thinking that it would be more open and Linux friendly as an Android device. It's not. I can't even update the firmware to 2.1 to get the cool new Google apps.

</comment><comment><USER62> None?

Verizon LTE is supposedly launching in a few months and then you'll want an Android phone that works w/ LTE. Of course, we don't know where you live, so LTE may not be available in your area.

</comment><comment><USER63> HTC Aria. Fast, fits in your pocket, and runs Android. I've been very happy with it so far. Also since you're on AT&T, this is a no-brainer.

</comment><comment><USER64> I've heard recommendations of the Samsung Galaxy S, as well as Nexus One (I only know the N1 and love it).

</comment><comment><USER65> nokia n900

<comment><USER66> I even used the SIM card from my iPhone in my N900, it doesnt get 3G (only 2.5G, due to At&t's lame network) but that doesn't matter to me since I use bandwidth intensive programs on WiFi anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> You should take a look at the Samsung Captivate which is a Galaxy S Android phone for AT&T, if you want to move to Verizon the Droid 2 should be released later this month (I'm planning on getting the European version of that, Milestone 2 I assume they'll call it)

<comment><USER68> I am concerned, based on a friend's experience with a Behold II that Samsung will abandon the device and not provide software updates.

In the case of the Behold II, Samsung promised an update to Android 2.0 when it became available. After it did, Samsung claimed that it wasn't compatible with the device. Third-party developers succeeded in running 2.1 on it, but, lacking drivers, many hardware features did not work.

<comment><USER67> In this case there is already an early beta firmware of Android 2.2 floating around to prove that they are working on it, plus they've open sourced the drivers: [http://www.androidguys.com/2010/07/30/samsung-open- sources-c...](http://www.androidguys.com/2010/07/30/samsung-open-sources- captivate-sghi897-code/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> I wonder what people think about the non-screened applications for Android, and that many applications have (retro-actively) been pulled because they send private information to douchebags? I'm imagining with Androids popularity, it's going to end up being a world similar to the PC world, where you have Windows cheezoid OS with some antivirus/antiphishig app having to overlook all your applications and make sure they behave properly. Personally I still think the Apple way of pre screening is healthier, as long as it doesn't get draconian. Which poison do you pick?

<comment><USER27> >Personally I still think the Apple way of pre screening is healthier

That's because you're stunningly ignorant, not only about Android's security model, but also about Apple's inability to catch anything but the superficial.

<comment><USER8> Shame on anyone who upmods a comment like yours which consists of nothing but calling someone a name and then telling two lies.

<comment><USER27> It isn't "calling someone a name". It's pointing out a fact. They are clearly ignorant about the Android security model, and they're ignorant about the checks that Apple does.

Your claim that they are lies is humorous, however. Ignorance casts a wide shadow.

<comment><USER70> You can do a lot better and explain yourself instead of name calling which it is. You are not pointing out a fact, you are stroking your ego.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Is Start Up School Down? - <AUTHOR> Is startupschool.org down for anyone else? <comment><USER2> There's an update

> You may have gotten an email a few minutes ago saying we're missing your > update for this week. That was totally my bad, we do have your update, I > just pulled an over-broad email list for Kevin to send his reminder. Sorry > about that, won't happen again! :(

</comment><comment><USER3> Yes, it is. Plus I received an email saying I didn't sent my weekly update (which I did)

Should be resolved soon :)

<comment><USER4> I got the same email about not submitting my weekly update, which I had.

This sounds like an email that should have only gone out to a handful of people went out to everyone. And those people, rightfully concerned that SUS didn't think they had submitted their weekly update, are now taking the server down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> [https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/startupschool.com.html](https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/startupschool.com.html) It's down for everyone

</comment><comment><USER6> The site appears to be back online!

An oddly worded email regarding weekly status reports got sent-out earlier, but then another from Kyle Corbitt said that it was a mistake and all has been resolved.

<comment><USER7> Nothing wrong with a personal tone, it has clearly made a lot of people read it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very true!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's down for me :/

<comment><AUTHOR> Just making sure I'm not crazy!</comment></comment>


Interviewing Product Managers - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.io/blog/interviewing-product-managers/ <comment><USER2> find the overlap in custom work and future roadmap. pit the custom work against the needs of a customer advisory board.</comment>