Warren Buffett Just Wrote His Best Annual Letter - <AUTHOR> http://www.gatesnotes.com/About-Bill-Gates/Warren-Buffett-Just-Wrote-His-Best-Annual-Letter-Ever <comment><USER2> I love Warren Buffet's quote on hiring:

"Somebody once said that in looking for people to hire, you look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy. And if you don't have the first, the other two will kill you. You think about it; it's true. If you hire somebody without [integrity], you really want them to be dumb and lazy."

Often we tend to focus too much on intelligence and too little on integrity.

[http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/76790-somebody-once-said- tha...](http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/76790-somebody-once-said-that-in- looking-for-people-to-hire)

<comment><USER3> > Often we tend to focus too much on intelligence and > too little on > integrity.

Maybe because integrity is virtually impossible to objectively evaluate for a candidate who you've got limited time to assess (aside from some extreme examples perhaps).

I guess you could incorporate some sort of formal integrity test [1] into your hiring process but my impression is that those are costly and controversial. Do companies actually use them...?

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_integrity_testing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_integrity_testing)

<comment><USER4> Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett.

<comment><USER5> _> Integrity also means different things to Warren Buffett than it does to other people. Ripping someone's face off in a business transaction is a desirable quality to Warren Buffett._

From the letter Gates was talking about (I've read about the 1st 1/3 of it over the last couple of days), integrity would be why Warren Buffett bought a major insurance company on a handshake and a one page document. No pre-audit. No financial review.

He trusted the guy.

In my opinion, that's the same definition of integrity everyone else uses.

<comment><USER4> I don't know which deal you are talking about but Buffett likes quick handshake deals because the longer he waits the more likely the seller will retain professional M&A advice and therefore raise the price (to something more fair for the seller).

One of Buffett's proudest achievements was paying pennies on the dollar for an immigrant's bootstrapped furniture business.

<comment><USER5> That would be National Indemnity and Life, p10.

 _" Let's look first at insurance, Berkshire's core operation. That industry has been the engine that has propelled our expansion since 1967, when we acquired National Indemnity and its sister company, National Fire & Marine, for $8.6 million. Though that purchase had monumental consequences for Berkshire, its execution was simplicity itself.

Jack Ringwalt, a friend of mine who was the controlling shareholder of the two companies, came to my office saying he would like to sell. Fifteen minutes later, we had a deal. Neither of Jack's companies had ever had an audit by a public accounting firm, and I didn't ask for one. My reasoning: (1) Jack was honest and (2) He was also a bit quirky and likely to walk away if the deal became at all complicated.

On pages 128-129, we reproduce the 11⁄2-page purchase agreement we used to finalize the transaction. That contract was homemade: Neither side used a lawyer. Per page, this has to be Berkshire's best deal: National Indemnity today has GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) net worth of $111 billion, which exceeds that of any other insurer in the world."_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I had a chance to read the letter - I went from knowing nothing about Buffet's businesses to knowing a lot, very quickly.

On a related note, I wonder if Gates writing this praise was spurred by something, maybe some news about Buffet. He's relatively senior (84), and has been running Berkshire for a while now. Maybe he's getting ready to give up the reins.

In fact, he builds up the reputation his menagerie of "very experienced people" to run individual businesses - I wonder how they will run things when Warren isn't around.

While you're at it, take some time to check out the Berkshire Hathaway site. It directly services what they're trying to do: provide investor information.

[http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/](http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/)

<comment><USER7> Love it - one of the world's richest people, and his site is built using Word

<comment><USER8> as far as we know, it could be written in emacs org mode.

<comment><USER9> Well, then they've gone to some lengths to make it look like it's not.

> <meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828">

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I find the letter interesting as it contrasts so much with our Tech industry: mature vs. unproven, simple vs. complicated, sound past vs. promising future. It looks like the complete opposite of VC-influenced business.

Even so, I believe there are takeaways. If we're building startups which have yet to prove themselves, it's still good to have a long term view. I'm reminded of Jack Ma's vision to build a company that lasts 99 years. Ma and Buffet's risks are—I believe—not pure chance but well calculated. Something I'm trying to improve personally but have a ways to go…

<comment><USER11> Yes, that was indeed remarkable. The inflated valuations, the self-interest of those that get paid in those transactions - I'd love to read something as insightful as Mr. Buffet has written, only for the tech sector.

<comment><USER12> I don't think they are really comparable to be honest.

If you look at the type of businesses that BH is involved in, it's things that have "book value," in other words tangible assets that can be inventoried, depreciate and are generally considered durable goods. In "Tech" the vast majority of assets are human capital and it is too "fickle" and companies are very easily supplanted for the really long game that BH plays. Notice that the "tech" they do own is in things like IBM

Coke for example is a big asset of BH that falls slightly outside of this because the bulk of what makes Coke - Coke, is it's brand. But even still, it has a massive industrial capacity.

<comment><USER13> Couldn't disagree more. His story about building BH into a powerhouse centered on valuing things at more than just book value (notably, See's Candy, which was one of their first amazing investments, which he was worried about purchasing for 3x net tangible assets, but notes that it was only because he wasn't yet skilled at Munger's investment style yet). One of the durable advantages he looks for is having a strong brand (as he says in the letter) -- Coke is not that atypical an investment for them.

His reason for being largely extremely-low-tech is that he loves to understand the businesses he invests in really, really well (probably his big competitive advantage), and by his own admission, he doesn't really understand tech.

<comment><USER14> That part of the letter seemed unsatisfying to me. Perhaps there's some obvious backstory here I'm unaware of (I never heard of See's Candy), but all the letter says is that it had a big and strong competitive advantage, without bothering to say what that was. Brand? I can't think of many other candidates beyond some amazing one-off deal with suppliers. It's a chocolate company. How powerful can the brand really be? Why would their brand be so much better than any others? And why was it so obvious to Buffet that this brand was great yet apparently not to anyone else? This story doesn't really tell us anything about his investment strategy at all.

<comment><USER15> IIRC, in _Snowball_ , he mentions that the competitive advantage of See's was that it was exceptionally good quality candy. I don't remember the details very well, but it's likely that he realized that with better management and marketing, they could produce far more value than the company cost at the time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The Economist was a bit less convinced:

[http://www.economist.com/news/business/21645746-warren- buffe...](http://www.economist.com/news/business/21645746-warren- buffetts-50th-annual-missive-his-companys-shareholders-obfuscates-rather)

<comment><USER17> > Yet Mr Buffett's 50th letter to shareholders is an exception, serving to > muddy rather than clarify, for two reasons. First, because it does not > tackle the questions that hang over Berkshire's conglomerate model and its > durability. Second, because of the uncharacteristic coyness with which Mr > Buffett and his partner Charlie Munger —respectively aged 84 and 91—discuss > how or when they will give up their jobs.

Did this guy not read the letter? Because Buffet spends a lot of time discussing why he thinks _his version_ of the conglomerate model works and will continue to work. You can disagree with his reasoning, but he certainly discusses it at length.

Second, there have been rumors that Buffet is planning to give up control soon, perhaps at this shareholder meeting. Even if he doesn't, it's not clear that it matters. The final word on asset allocation may come from him, but he is surrounded by people essentially making those decisions for him (as he basically implies in the letter).

Nowhere in this do I get the impression this guy actually read the FULL letter, beyond the first part (meaning beyond page 21).

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Best quote ever: "With the acquisition of Van Tuyl, Berkshire now owns 9.5 companies that would be listed on the Fortune 500 were they independent (Heinz is the 0.5). That leaves 490.5 fish in the sea. Our lines are out."

</comment><comment><USER19> Sounds like the successor will be a woman from the wording in the letter. First Mr. Buffett uses "he" and mentions that it's used to avoid strange sentences. When describing the ideal candidate it switches to "he or she" and and when talking about the fact that they have a successor it switches to "person".

That pattern is pretty typical when talking about women but not wanting to give it away from my experience of playing online warewolf (so yeah huge grain of salt needed there)

Edit: Seems like Mr. Munger mentions Mr. Jain and Mr. Abel, both male. I think I'll stick with my initial impression though :P

<comment><USER20> If it's the 30 year old secretary coordinating the shareholder meeting I'm quitting school and pulling a Chris McCandless.

Otherwise, going to be a very interesting thing to watch. Mr. Buffet's love of economic moats will likely help ensure that his successor will not be in a Ballmer-type position.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I know this is about Warren, but I have a question...

Is it me, or is Bill Gates the coolest person ever after relinquishing his duties at Microsoft?

He seems so at peace with everything (except for his charities and philanthropic efforts of course).

<comment><USER22> Money buys freedom, and freedom buys happiness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> He references "Where Are the Customer's Yachts?"! That's a great fun little book, written in 1940 looking back on the madness leading up to 1929.

<comment><USER24> I believe that's not his book. [http://www.amazon.com/Where-Are-Customers- Yachts-Street/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Where-Are-Customers-Yachts- Street/dp/0471770892)

<comment><USER23> Yes, I didn't imply that it was Warren Buffet's book.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> _Our definition of coverage is pre-tax earnings /interest, not EBITDA/interest, a commonly used measure we view as seriously flawed._

I would love to see a founder tell one of their investors this and watch their head explode.

<comment><USER20> Genuinely curious, wouldn't EBIT be a more conservative number than EBITDA? Not that it matters in tech, as I assume Depreciation and Amortization are almost nil.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> > Your venue for shopping will be the 194,300-square-foot hall that adjoins > the meeting and in which products from dozens of Berkshire subsidiaries will > be for sale. If you don't get your shopping done on Friday, slip out while > Charlie's talking on Saturday and binge on our bargains.

I love how Warren and Charlie, at 84 and 91 respectively, still bust each other's chops like they're college roommates.

</comment><comment><USER26> The Acquisition Criteria on page 23 are quite interesting; definitely a stark contrast from most tech acquisitions. I especially like #5: "Simple businesses (if there's lots of technology, we won't understand it)" and #2 "..future projections are of no interest to us.."

</comment><comment><USER27> Wait, haven't we all agreed that everybody above 50 are useless dinosaurs that cannot keep up with the time?

<comment><USER28> I remember everyone saying how his "old thinking" was failing in the late 90s. Having grown up and studied the market as a kid in the 80s, I was on Warren's side (plus he was someone I admired). Sure enough, that "internet economy" blew up.

I eagerly await this next implosion too. Billions for companies that make nothing. Well rich people need to park their money somewhere. Just don't be the last one holding cards.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Buffett owns 6% of IBM

</comment><comment><USER30> I read this letter.

> The fact is that I gave Berkshire stock to the sellers of Dexter rather than > cash, and the shares I used for the purchase are now worth about $5.7 > billion. As a financial disaster, this one deserves a spot in the Guinness > Book of World Records.

Two comments about this: I don't think Buffet has a good concept of financial disaster. Having or not having an extra $5b today makes little difference to the scale of Buffet's and Berkshire Hathaway's wealth. This does not materially change their financial position and cannot have precipitated a crisis situation.

Does Buffet really begrudge the fact that somebody else got rich from a fair deal? Perhaps I am misreading this section, but I feel very disappointed by this.

<comment><USER31> He amassed that fortune by paying that kind of attention to detail. He keeps his fortune by paying that kind of attention to detail. All great artists are great because of attention at the macro- _and_ micro-level. To you it's disappointment. To him it's a missed opportunity because of a bad decision. An opportunity missed, whether great or little, is something the man clearly dislikes.

<comment><USER30> Based on the detail given, I'm not even convinced that this was a bad decision for Buffet.

Somebody else has $5b, but this is not a zero-sum game.

Every decision, including this one, contributed towards Buffet's and Berkshire's position today.

Presumably Buffet took that decision to rather invest the cash in something else - which has apparently done just fine.</comment></comment></comment>


Facebook Container Plugin from Mozilla Isolates Your Facebook Identity - <AUTHOR> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2018/03/27/facebook-container-add-on/ <comment><USER2> Worth noting that Multi Account Containers is a generalisation of this particular add-on (not plug-in) and isn't restricted to Facebook: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15256603](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15256603)

</comment><comment><USER3> The container just asked me for permission to read all of my incoming and outgoing data. Rings an ominous bell

<comment><USER4> No surprise there, given that if it's going to trap Facebook requests, it has to see Facebook requests. It's presumably a WebExtension so you should be able to open it up and read the JavaScript. Containers have been built-in to Firefox for a while now, so it's nice to see this use pop up!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> How is this different/better than just disabling all third-party cookies?

<comment><USER4> Disabling third-party cookies breaks a lot of the web for a lot of people. Expert users are equipped to deal with the fallout of that choice. Less expert users are not. This extension offers less-expert users a way to protect their surfing from Facebook without having to learn about cookies at all.

<comment><USER5> I always disable third-party cookies and I'm actually surprised by how rarely it's an issue. Get your point, but the approach makes me suspicious it's less about protecting users and more about getting them under Mozilla's increasingly-suspect umbrella (see their recent efforts with Cliqz).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Remove the cause and not the symptoms.</comment>


What real-world events would it be useful to receive notifications about? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER3> Tsunamis, nuclear explosions, epidemics, certain keywords received on the police scanner, public transit delays or cancellations, good deals on Ebay for HP 41CX calculators.

</comment><comment><USER4> I would like to know about things that the powers that be specifically don't want me to know about. Laws that are being slipped through under the cover of night. Any changes to civil or human rights issues. Funding connections to politicians. Abuses of power.

Basically, a transparency module. And yes, I know this is what newspapers used to do, and some blogs attempt to. The signal to noise just isn't great and delivery is not very directed.

</comment><comment><USER5> Interesting question. Are there certain constraints or parameters to your question? If not, here are some things that comes to my mind:

1\. Sudden (unexpected) weather changes 2\. Location-relevant deals/coupons (relevant to my interests) 3\. Any breaking news (in a similar manner to how things tend to break on Twitter b4 mainstream news broadcasts it) 4\. If friends/family are within a local proximity

<comment><AUTHOR> No real parameters. Cell phones can be programmed to do tasks based on its sensors (eg. turn on vibrate when face down, go silent when past 10pm) I'm just interested in hearing what kind of tasks or notifications (email, sms etc) would be useful to receive from non-digital devices.

<comment><USER5> I'll continue to think about it. I have been using <http://ifttt.com> for notifications throughout my social apps. I have become obsessed with it because its ease-of-use and quick setup.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> From what's not readily available -- earthquakes in the area, tsunamis, power/phone/cable outages and fire alarms at specific locations (think - <USER2> street block), Amber alerts, public service announcements.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> What about working in things that can be sensed? Motion, sound, temperature, force etc.

</comment><comment><USER7> Pending subway/bus/train departures when near a station.

<comment><USER8> good one -- I need this too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> reply to one's HN comments

<comment><USER10> you can track replies to yours at

<http://hnnotify.com/></comment></comment>


OS X on PC : Getting that pesky cat to run on a PC - <AUTHOR> http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/efi-x-efix-leopard-usb,review-31340.html

<comment><USER2> I'm surprised that so many people dismiss the legality of Psystar. Psystar is:

      - selling PCs

      - selling legal copies of OSX

      - patching copies *for interoperability*

Now, reverse engineering and patching a product for interoperability is not generally believed to be illegal.

Apple has two main arguments, the EULA and copyright infringement. From my European perspective, the EULA argument seems very weak. By EULA, Microsoft tried to prohibit sales of OEM CDs to private customers in Europe, and they got overturned in court. The reasoning was that it is not for a company to dictate what a customer will do with his property.

The copyright argument seems stronger, except that an operating system is not a work of art or literature. You couldn't sell a painting with modifications, unless you have the permission of the artist.

I'm pretty sure, however, that you could take a Mercedes engine, make minor modifications, put it into a BMW and sell the product, provided that the modifications are according to the customer's wishes.

</comment><comment><USER3> an awful interview, but the one quote that stood out for me was:

> Davide: That's what the hardware compatibility list is there for. The EFiX > will work only on what we want it to work. This is to limit the users to > exactly those that we want to use the module.

so apple dictates mac os x can only run on the hardware they choose, then this company comes along and creates a way to run mac os x on... only the specific non-apple hardware that they dictate it can run on? what's the point?

</comment><comment><USER4> Small box connected to USB containing "several gigabytes of dedicated static RAM" that "takes over the low-level functions of the board" does not sound to me as something that is technically possible (and the SRAM part does not even sound reasonable).

In my opinion, if this thing works, it works on some trivial principle, my guess is that it is more or less flash drive with some form of hypervisor, or scam...

</comment><comment><USER5> Since I installed Vista on MacBook Pro, I didn't boot into OS X once.</comment>


Ask HN: How to find job again after career break? - <AUTHOR> Around two years ago I found myself in a deep depression, burnt out, and I quit my job. Luckily, I was in a place financially and personally to be able to take a break from work. I didn't really have a plan, I just knew that something needed to change.
I'm happy to report that I was able to find a way out of my depression, and I would like to resume my fulfilling career as a developer (which was mostly as a frontend developer). But I'm lost as to the best way to do so. I originally got my first job through self teaching and a boot camp. I feel as though I "sold" myself as a self motivated, smart guy who was ready to tackle whatever. That "sale" worked because that is what I was, I'm not a good salesman, I just told the truth. I quickly moved up in pay and responsibility over four and a half years.
Now, however, I struggle with the idea that I seem washed up, and out of practice. I've taken some online courses and done open source work. But my history looks like patchwork (ala Github graph), and I haven't had a real job in two years.
I know the common strategies: build something, write a blog, work as a freelancer, etc. In order to get back into the game. I was able to get myself my first job with no experience, but now I feel like I'm less employable because of my hiatus.
I wasn't sure how this post would come out. It turned out that I used "I feel" a lot. I know the practical steps to get back into my career. Maybe I'm looking for encouragement. For you kind souls who have read this far - if you have any practical advice or personal anecdotes, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thank you. <comment><USER2> > I know the common strategies: build something, write a blog, work as a > freelancer, etc. In order to get back into the game. I was able to get > myself my first job with no experience, but now I feel like I'm less > employable because of my hiatus.

Have you been applying to jobs? Asking former coworkers for any job leads?

You're overthinking it. Just start applying and interviewing everywhere. Don't get hung up on rejection. Don't wait until you have side projects or GitHub commits or blog posts. You can do those in parallel as a bonus if you really want to.

Get out there and apply for every single potentially interesting job that comes up. Practice LeetCode and HackerRank to refresh your knowledge and prep for any possible coding interviews in parallel with your job search. Start tonight. An hour a day of practice and applying goes a long way. No excuses to delay.

<comment><AUTHOR> No I haven't been applying or asking for leads. This is the sort of kick in the ass advice I think I needed. Thank you. You are correct no excuses to delay.

<comment><USER2> You've got this. Go get it. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> We hired a guy in your situation. (Worse, actually - he'd been out of coding for 10 years.)

We weren't sure if he could still do it. So we offered him a three-month contract at a low rate, with the understanding that, if he panned out, we would hire him at a normal salary. He panned out. So we hired him.

This approach meant that we didn't have to guess whether he could still do the work. He got to show us. And if he couldn't, well, we weren't out that much. And if he could, he wasn't out that much.

<comment><AUTHOR> That is very encouraging to hear. Did he propose the 3 month trial contract or you guys? I thought of offering such a thing but not sure if it seems too desperate. Thank you for your comment.

<comment><USER3> I _think_ we did, but I have no direct knowledge.

In your shoes, I wouldn't be afraid to propose it - but only to a potential employer that you think is serious, but the work gap is a real issue for them.

<comment><USER4> I disagree with this advice.

If I was on the fence about hiring someone because I wasn't sure they would do the job and they offered to drop the price it would make me think that person is also not confident that they could do the job.

As a hiring manager, there is more on the line than the employee's salary. Making a bad hire can hurt morale, reduce productivity, and hurt the hiring manager's reputation. Having that extra money in your budget won't outweigh the potential damage that could be done.

During a job search you need to make those risks seem as small as possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> In addition to the advice given by the others, I would suggest to maybe participate in the Advent-of-code ([https://adventofcode.com/](https://adventofcode.com/)). It started a few days ago but you should be able to quickly catch up.

You might do it to get back into coding, put it on a resume or just for fun (my reason to do it).

But the community around it ([https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/](https://www.reddit.com/r/adventofcode/)) is really great and it's a lot of fun!

It also provides as a specific daily purpose, in contrast to some random code test online.

Best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, I'll check that out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> As someone who recently quit your question sounds like you just returned from a re-education camp. I'm neither depressed nor have I found working on a development team to be fulfilling in years. Well, ever since I figured out the whole thing was about making myself an obedient tool for someone else.

I don't have any advice for you to get back into programming. I doubt sitting in a chair in a silent room doing what someone else tells you all day is going to help your depression.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey there. I'm sorry that whatever situation you find yourself in has you in such a negative state of mind. You too can make changes to turn around your perspective. Best of luck!</comment></comment>


Rentalic.com: Rent out your household items - <AUTHOR> http://consumerist.com/2010/01/rent-out-your-household-items-for-fun-and-profit.html

<comment><USER2> I tried to start a similar sort of service in my village, but there are problems. What if the item gets broken? What if the item gets lost? What if the person using it hurts themselves with it? What if they simply don't give it back?

It would be interesting to see how this service plans to answer these questions.

<comment><USER3> Per the FAQ: There can be security deposits for damage and loss.

They are conspicuously silent on the missing question:

 _I lopped my arm off with this negligently maintained chainsaw, who do I sue?_

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Actual site: <http://www.rentalic.com/>

(I would have submitted that directly, but if you are like me and your zipcode is empty, it's easier to figure out what it does from the consumerist article)

</comment><comment><USER4> Hi Frossie,

What do you mean by your zip code was empty?

<comment><AUTHOR> Don't panic, I just meant there was nothing for rent on my nearby zipcodes so it was quicker to read about the site than to try it out, being that I couldn't remember any of the major metropolitan zipcodes (which presumably would have had some kind of listings).

I'm in rural Hawaii so I often have this problem - I am thinking I should memorise some Silicon Valley zipcode just so I can use it to try out websites :-)</comment></comment>


List of Cool Apps on Mac - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/mac-osx-toolbelt/226593bed5b5

<comment><USER2> "that's free" This should be "that are free". Cool list though.</comment>


3 mistakes I made validating my idea earlier in 2016 - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@arjunpatel_37657/3-mistakes-i-made-when-validating-my-idea-640c626672eb#.hzd7y89ur <comment><USER2> "Never measure page view or sign ups to validate your product/market fit."

Well, not always valid. Depending on your intent, these matrics, especially sign ups, might be proportional with your market fit.

<comment><AUTHOR> Valid point!</comment></comment>


Blue wine is finally coming to the US - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/30/blue-wine-is-finally-coming-to-the-us.html <comment><USER2> It is utterly repulsive. Should do famously well in the US</comment>


Tesla Model S floats well enough to act as a boat, according to Elon Musk - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/20/tesla-model-s-electric-car-floats-water-boat-elon-musk <comment><USER2> Related VW Beetle floating: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qB0lb401ZU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qB0lb401ZU)

</comment><comment><USER3> People are always trying to pick apart things that a wrong with Tesla's. Like the fact a tesla crashing makes the news. It's just a car, like all the others, but a bit more advanced.

</comment><comment><USER4> "Most internal combustion engine cars are sunk in water when the exhaust becomes flooded, which is why serious off-roaders have big exhaust scoops leading to the roof."

I don't even....

<comment><USER5> You don't even what?

<comment><USER6> From Reddit:

"Internal Combustion cars don't stall because their exhaust floods. They stall because they suck up water into their intake. There is no such thing as an "exhaust scoop""

<comment><USER7> 4v4's that do serious water duty have exhaust snorkels also e.g. [http://imgur.com/SWSbe28](http://imgur.com/SWSbe28)

The air intake snorkel on many 4v4's a lot of time is really there just for cosmetics (as the air intake system is fairly capable on it's own) or often has a compressor in it to cool the intake air to allow the engine to work in more extreme thermal conditions.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


When Noise Helps: Stochastic Resonance and ADHD - <AUTHOR> http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2007/09/when_noise_helps_stochastic_re_1.php

<comment><USER2> I don't like the implication that children with ADHD are unhealthy.

I think the problem is that people perceive them to be (because they are different).

Mis-diagnosis of ADD and ADHD is common at young ages too. I am most likely bi-polar more than ADD even though I was diagnosed with the latter not the former.

<comment><USER3> It isn't something in the brain you can point at like a tumor - it (seems to be) an difference in the development of structures or the concentration of neurotransmitters that everyone has - so a diagnosis can only be made based on whether these differences are impeding in some way. That's why it doesn't really make sense to say it isn't a problem when how problematic it is is one of the diagnostic criteria.

<comment><USER2> It's not diagnosis that concerns me per say (although it does in kids). The problem is over medication. I was on ritalin for so long as a kind my body became resistant. And now I've been told I may have been mis-diagnosed.

I don't think I had a problem other than school was boring, and I was always ahead of the curve. I wasn't like the rest so I had a problem and they had to try making me conform.

It's this need for us all to be more or less like everyone else that is the problem.

There has been some speculation by people that public school (and probably even non public) exists but to drain the individuality, creativeness, independantness, etc, from us to make use perfect obedient corporate drones. When school fails they push prescriptions.</comment></comment></comment>


Microsoft open-sources Graph Engine - <AUTHOR> https://www.graphengine.io <comment><USER2> I find that very abstract software packages like this are difficult to visualize without an example. This page does not offer one, but TFM does -- see [1]. Also note that TFM describes the fact that this is Windows-only. That makes it substantially less interesting, IMO.

[1] [https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/index.html#what-is- ge](https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/index.html#what-is-ge)

<comment> v-yadli Dev here. Cross-platform for Linux/BSD is on the way, and it's already in the repo now.

<comment><USER3> That's great! You should definitely add that to the docs. I just went to the same page and was extremely disappointed when I saw that it required Windows. A benchmark comparing it with similar solutions (esp. Neo4j) would be much welcome.

<comment> v-yadli Sure we'll definitely update the docs! Or better to work out one way to put the docs on GitHub and keep it synchronized with the site (they're markdown anyway)

<comment><USER4> While you are at it, can you guys also do a feature comparison between Graph Engine vs Neo4J vs JanusGraph (vs Apache Giraph)?

Thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> At this rate, are we going to see Windows open-sourced?

MS is on a roll. My bias since 1996 is being eroded with each OSS release they have, and multi-platform targeted support.

I started using VSCode regularly as my main Rust IDE, and I feel dirty for liking it. It's seemless across macOS and Linux.

<comment><USER6> Not yet. Their next strategy is to try and use ARM (again) to shove UWP down your throat.

I love Windows but I seriously will not touch UWP until they loosen up the sandbox restrictions so that I can do regular IPC with a win32 desktop app. You can't even send an HTTP request to a little node.js Web server running on your desktop right now. Fuck that. I'm not buying into it.

<comment><USER7> > I love Windows but I seriously will not touch UWP until they loosen up the > sandbox restrictions so that I can do regular IPC with a win32 desktop app.

The whole reason for the UWP sandboxing is to make it so that users can confidently install UWP applications with some assurances that it isn't spyware/malware/blackmailware that will take over their PC or steal their personal information.

UWP is Microsoft's answer to years of criticism they received for the way process permissions work on Windows. They aren't going to just dump it all because you and a few others find the priviledge model inconvenient.

> You can't even send an HTTP request to a little node.js Web server running > on your desktop right now.

If your node.js web server was network accessible you could. But, no, it won't allow unchecked IPC as that directly defeats the whole point of sandboxing to begin with.

Personally I haven't used UWP much either, but that has nothing to do with sandboxing and everything to do with poor performance and UI issues (e.g. window controls, built in UI elements, etc). I still find the Windows 10 UWP Calculator horrible to use, it was a MASSIVE downgrade over the old one.

<comment><USER8> Honestly, this particular complaint reminds me a lot of UAC. After _decades_ of people complaining that Windows account security was too lax, they implement the graphical popup equivalent of `sudo`. Then proceed to get skewered in public opinion for having done it.

Yes, proper security means you will be inconvenienced. In the same way that you would be inconvenienced if your bank called you to confirm that $10000 wire you didn't initiate. It's inconvenient that you have to take a call and resolve the issue, but it's a hell of a lot better than finding out at some indeterminate point in the future that $10000 is missing from your account.

<comment><USER9> If only. sudo, as configured out-of-the-box on Ubuntu, gets out of your way and lets you work (Except if you haven't properly authenticated in the last 15 minutes); polkit is similarly out-of-your-way.

Sudo is also (relatively) easy to configure: "this command line can be run under sudo by anybody", "this command must not be run under sudo even if they know their password", etc.

UAC is always-in-your-face about everything, often unexpectedly - it hijacks your desktops at inopportune times, and there's no way to tell it "Yes, this software can do this again for the next 15 minutes without asking me again".

UAC is very, very far from being the graphical popup equivalent of sudo. If it had been, people would not have complained as much. (Someone always complains. But in the case of UAC, most of the complaints are justified)

<comment><USER7> While what you say was true about Vista, in Windows 7, 8, 8.1, and 10 UAC prompts are suppressed when they're the direct result of user interactions within the OS itself. Each OS reduced the number of UAC prompts a user experiences.

<comment><USER10> They also broke the security on the default configuration because now you can just interact with the system components to bypass UAC, see e.g. [0]. This is officially not a security vulnerability because UAC isn't actually a security barrier unless you set it to "Always prompt", but just a feature to make applications play nice. But note that it's not on "Always prompt" by default...

[0] [https://github.com/hfiref0x/UACME](https://github.com/hfiref0x/UACME)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Interesting - Linux Foundation with IBM, Google and others announced last week JanusGraph [0]. Janus provides optional persistent storage option also.

What are the good use cases for these ?

[0] [http://janusgraph.org/](http://janusgraph.org/)

<comment><USER12> Old-school AI maybe, fraud detection, social network analysis, recommendation engines, deanonymization, surveillance and tracking...

<comment><USER11> I am using a time-series db where each metric measurement requires some static context information to be included, e.g. Event 1 happened in Device A at Node B, Location C. These static entities (A, B, C) are perfect for graph vertices. But, when I am persisting the graph on disk - I store all the data statically, No links just columns - the static entities become dimensional data.

Is there a better way to this ?

Ideally, we should persist the Object Graph directly without any data conversion. I see a difference in - How we compute and How we store data.

<comment><USER13> Not specific to GraphEngine, but you could store all meta-data about the device separate from the time-series itself. The composite metric name (key?) would then include the measurement name and the entity name (device name in this case).

<comment><USER11> That is one possible solution. But, for queries we will need some kind of JOIN at runtime.

I do store the entity data separately in a transactional row store.

For analytical queries, we use a column store. For this, I have to include the entity data (context) for each fired event.

The whole Compute & Storage semantics are different.

If only, we had a persistent data-aware compute & storage graph engine that supported transactional & analytical workloads.

<comment><USER13> Storing time-series in a columnar format (blobs o time-values) and entity data in row format sounds good to me.

If you look at data historians (PI et al), that's how they lay out the data: metrics storage is separate from the asset store, or Asset Framework as it's called.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> For a noob like me, what are the applications of this framework? What are the use cases? What current tools do this?

</comment><comment><USER15> This era of open source from MS is great, but my reaction is always "OK, here's the Microsoft version of something I've been using for a couple of years already".

I'd like to see the Spanner+Cyc GIS-capable global distributed real-time graph engine with FPGA accelerated OLAP support MS Research is probably sitting on, because we can almost / pretty-much hack that together with OSS now.

</comment><comment><USER16> Microsoft of 2017 makes me forget about Microsoft of 1997. It's insane how a shakeup of CEO and new cultural shift can seemingly add another major boost to it's brand.

I welcome open source, eventually, I believe that it will eat commercial software, if the right economic incentives are in place. Microsoft may be signaling this to the market.

<comment><USER17> _> Microsoft of 2017 makes me forget about Microsoft of 1997._

Never Forget.

<comment><USER18> If I may paraphrase: "Never forget that large monopolies can wield disgusting influence, but don't let hate for past monopolies blind you to modern monopolies either" :-)

<comment><USER17> _> don't let hate for past monopolies blind you to modern monopolies either_

Just because Microsoft is no longer the monopoly-du-jour, doesn't mean they aren't still a monopoly...

Just because they have been making (successful) forays into open-source, does not mean they won't still fiercely protect (with whatever means at their disposal) their monopoly cash cows (Windows and Office).

The "standartization" of Office Open XML wasn't all that long ago, after all (ECMA in 2006, ISO in 2008).

<comment><USER19> Windows is a legitimate cash cow, but because of server installs. Office makes a lot of money; SQL Server and other datacenter products make much more.

<comment><USER17> _> Windows is a legitimate cash cow, but because of server installs. Office makes a lot of money; SQL Server and other datacenter products make much more._

And yet on the server Microsoft does not have a monopoly.

Consider that the main reason Microsoft _has_ a profitable business selling server software is _because_ of their desktop monopolies through many diverse paths.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Seems to be just a marketing page with no link to source code or even mention of open source?

Here is the github page:

[https://github.com/Microsoft/GraphEngine](https://github.com/Microsoft/GraphEngine)

<comment><USER21> The repository is linked on the Download page.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Am I the only one getting SSL cert authority invalid error

<comment><USER23> Nope, I am as well.

<comment><USER24> But I'm pretty sure you two are the only ones.

<comment><USER25> Nope. Same here. However, it's just Chrome on Android that doesn't recognize the CA, even the native android browser is okay. Bizarre, may be coz they have an incomplete cert chain [https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.graphengi...](https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.graphengine.io) and chrome on android has had issues with that

<comment><USER24> I was being sarcastic :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I've been running into the idea of computational graphs a lot recently. It's at the core of Tensorflow (and NN in general) but it also comes up for example in Apple's AVFoundation where all audio processing happens in a graph of audio units. Does anyone know what's the theoretical foundation of computational graphs?

EDIT: I've created a wiki page for computational graphs. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_Graph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_Graph). Add your input.

<comment><USER27> There is the biological analogue, which has inspired neural networks:

> Recall that in our general definition a feed-forward neural network is a > _computational graph_ whose _nodes are computing units_ and whose directed > edges _transmit numerical information from node to node._

> Each computing unit is capable of evaluating a single primitive function of > its input. In fact the network represents a chain of function compositions > which transfor m an input to an output vector (called a pattern).

From: [https://page.mi.fu- berlin.de/rojas/neural/chapter/K7.pdf](https://page.mi.fu- berlin.de/rojas/neural/chapter/K7.pdf) (1996)

Another ancestor would be the Data-Flow paradigm:

> .. programming paradigm that internally represents applications as a > _directed graph_ , similarly to a dataflow diagram. Applications are > represented as a set of nodes (also called blocks) with input and/or output > ports in them. These nodes can either be sources, sinks or processing blocks > to the information flowing in the system. _Nodes are connected by directed > edges that define the flow of information between them_.

From: [https://paginas.fe.up.pt/~prodei/dsie12/papers/paper_17.pdf](https://paginas.fe.up.pt/~prodei/dsie12/papers/paper_17.pdf) (2012)

<comment><USER26> > There is the biological analogue, which has inspired neural network

I'm somewhat aware but it seems like the idea of a computational graph is the most generic computational idea I can think of and I'm surprised it's not more explored.

> Another ancestor would be the Data-Flow paradigm:

Oh yeah, data flow is definitely another one.

<comment><USER28> Functional programming can be represented as a graph, where calls are directed edges. Flow control is often analyzed in graph form in real compilers:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow_graph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow_graph)

<comment><USER26> It's not just functional programming (but I do agree that it's better in functional programming). All the reverse engineering tools have some feature to represent assembly as a CFG which is super helpful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Does Microsoft use this for anything in production?

<comment><USER30> From the Readme, it seems they do:

> LIKQ is powering Academic Graph Search API, which is part of Microsoft > Cognitive Services.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Funny how Microsoft has been rocking hard with their OS releases lately (and good on them for doing so), but there's still a pervasive feeling in the dev community about their true eventual motives and strategy.

"Fool me once..." I guess, or as we say in France "Cold water scares the scalded cat".

</comment><comment><USER32> Is this in the same space as Storm, Flink, or Spark?

Does it do streaming data such as Flink or Storm? Or is it batch-optimized?

What languages does the compute engine support?

</comment><comment><USER33> I still like the neat Pajek. Nifty little piece of software, unknown by most, but really powerful! Especially if you are into social network analysis. Who else uses it?

[http://mrvar.fdv.uni-lj.si/pajek/](http://mrvar.fdv.uni-lj.si/pajek/)

<comment><USER17> Never heard of it before, and wow, that page is _seriously_ old-school.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> [http://www.frankmcsherry.org/graph/scalability/cost/2015/01/...](http://www.frankmcsherry.org/graph/scalability/cost/2015/01/15/COST.html)

</comment><comment><USER35> Does this have a python interface?

<comment><USER36> It provides a RESTful API for getting the data out.

<comment><USER37> Do you have a link to the docs on that? I didn't spot it.

<comment><USER36> [https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/index.html#query- serv...](https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/index.html#query-serving)

EDIT: Slightly more useful link - [https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/TSL/MPProtocol.html#h...](https://www.graphengine.io/docs/manual/TSL/MPProtocol.html#http- protocols)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> MIT License, for those curious:

[https://github.com/Microsoft/GraphEngine/blob/master/LICENSE...](https://github.com/Microsoft/GraphEngine/blob/master/LICENSE.md)

</comment><comment><USER39> I see that the source code "os.h" file has directives to handle Linux and Apple. Has anyone managed to build it and use it in the even most trivial way?

<comment> v-yadli At the current state you could link Trinity.C with a custom Mono host and then execute your GE assemblies/Trinity.Core. Check out CMakeFile.txt for details. :) We're working to interface Trinity with CoreCLR. .NET standard 2.0 would make this much easier.

</comment></comment><comment> purple-dragon I'm a little confused. Is this competitive to something like Spark?

</comment><comment><USER40> I am confused, how is it different from spark graphx?

</comment><comment><USER41> How is this different to D-Graph?

</comment><comment><USER42> Although astroturfing doesn't seem to be a problem on HN, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't do it.

<comment><USER43> Since you've done this repeatedly and ignored our request to stop, we've banned your account.

Actual astroturfing, when it occurs, is an abuse of HN that we crack down hard on. Defending this community against gaming and abuse is a huge priority for us. Any user who thinks they might be seeing it happen on HN should email us right away (firstname.lastname@example.com) so we can investigate.

Imaginary astroturfing—the bug that causes some users to be certain that those who disagree with them can only be nefarious shills because otherwise the pure reason of their own point of view would be fully accepted—is also an abuse of HN. This one is orders of magnitude more common, and it is poison. It eats away the heart of civil, substantive discourse, the assumption of good faith on the part of others.

Therefore we ban astroturfers, and we also ban users who accuse others of astroturfing or shilling without evidence. An opposing view does not count as evidence, and playing this card as a rhetorical device in an argument breaks the HN guidelines.

We detached this subthread from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13607640](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13607640) and marked it off-topic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> How the hell does this story have so many upvotes?

HN really needs to do something about Microsoft's vote manipulation - it's becoming quite blatant at this point.

<comment><USER45> Please don't post baseless accusations of shillage. See more here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13610097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13610097).

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is not a cuddly new Microsoft. First comes the embrace (look at all this stuff on our github!), then comes the extend (run your Linux stack on Windows and never have to give up Visual Studio!), I'm sure you know what comes next. Hint: PC manufacturers no longer have to give you the option to disable Secure Boot.

<comment><USER47> >PC manufacturers no longer have to give you the option to disable Secure Boot.

Then don't buy from those people. Simple</comment></comment>


Took a break from my startup to start a startup - <AUTHOR> http://nateclark.com/articles/2007/09/12/took-a-break-from-my-startup-to-start-a-startup

<comment><USER2> Very nice. I like the clean page design and dead-simple UI.

On Wamily, a subjective opinion: make the front page fit horizontally in the browser window with no scrolling (I am viewing this on a non-widescreen laptop with 1024 x 768 resolution) and maybe reconsider the color scheme. Orange on blue is not pleasing to my eyeballs' palette.

</comment><comment><USER3> Good job. At-least you did better than me. I wanted to start a new project for the long weekend and met a couple of interested people - and at the end of the first day, after we had divied up the work, one of them said "it's too hot to work today - i can't concentrate" .. :)

Maybe I should have gone at it alone as well...</comment>


DigitalOcean Layoffs (No Official Announcement Yet) - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/thinkshiv/status/1217942597739646982 <comment><USER2> And there won't be any official announcement either. 50+ people lost their job yesterday.

<comment><USER3> Really? Is there any other info you can share about groups affected?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> [Little] more on this:

[https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/17/digitalocean- layoffs/](https://techcrunch.com/2020/01/17/digitalocean-layoffs/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Interesting. Hot on the heels of Mozilla. I wonder if this is a sign of feels like a pending recession (and maybe tech recession?).</comment>


Left behind: can anyone save the towns the economy forgot? - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.com/content/b6dbf34e-c987-11e7-aa33-c63fdc9b8c6c <comment><USER2> Why do they need to be saved?

Update: In particular, should we worry about restoring Gordium to its former glory? Is the current configuration of cities, towns, villages etc the best ever so that we must worry about preserving this state eternally?</comment>


Ask HN: List of frequently used UI notifications texts - <AUTHOR> Hi guys,<p>Clear, accurate, and concise text makes interfaces more usable and builds trust. Is there some list of the most frequently used notification texts used in UI of the web sites? What's better? "Item has been saved" or "Item saved" and so on ... <comment><USER2> Especially as a non-native English speaker, I often rely on the Material Design guidelines as my source for UI writing style.

[https://material.google.com/style/writing.html](https://material.google.com/style/writing.html)

I see you first sentence was taken directly from this, so I guess you already know about it :)

<comment><AUTHOR> No :) First sentence is from here [https://uxplanet.org/effective-writing-for- your-ui-things-to...](https://uxplanet.org/effective-writing-for-your-ui- things-to-avoid-f6084e94e009#.t5kox5xxk)

Thanks for your link it's exactly what I was looking for.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Not actually a list of texts, but if you have a few minutes, this might give you right idea how to write them: [https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/07/getting- practical-w...](https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2016/07/getting-practical- with-microcopy/)

</comment><comment><USER4> I recommend the Elements of Style, 3rd ed. [https://amzn.com/0205191584](https://amzn.com/0205191584)

(I flipped through the 4th edition, and the examples and stuff seemed overmodernized. It felt diluted.)</comment>


Vy – A Vim-like in Python made from scratch - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/iogf/vy <comment><USER2> Curious, want to try it yourself before you flame it to death for being in python 2 or claiming to be remotely plausible as a vim substitute?

      git clone https://github.com/iogf/vy
      cd vy
      virtualenv .
      ./bin/pip install untwisted pygments
      ./bin/python setup.py install

You'll probably want to edit /vyapp/plugins/toggle_mode.py to use a KeyPress binding that is valid for your platform at this point, or you'll get:

        _tkinter.TclError: bad event type or keysym "Apostrophe"

...and finally,

        ./bin/vy

Right, now you can start playing wading your way through [https://github.com/iogf/vy/blob/master/INTRO.md](https://github.com/iogf/vy/blob/master/INTRO.md) and try to understand the command syntax.

Good luck!

Vim clones are a dime a dozen; this is actually an entirely different thing, and although I can't imagine actually using it for anything... it's interesting to see people work on different approaches to text editors.

A simple hackable python text editor may not be useful in the long term for anything (for all the reasons about distributing python and python performance limitations), but its certainly viable for prototyping interesting features.

<comment><USER3> Tell me again about those "python performance limitations".

<comment><USER4> Devil's advocate: relative to C (which vim is written in), Python 2 is considerably slower, especially with CPython as its interpreter. Optimization is also tougher.

Personally, I admit I'm not sure that the difference is significant for this particular project.

<comment><USER5> Honestly, python might perform better overall. Not because C is slower than python (ha), but because python probably outperforms vim script. Especially likely because vim plug-ins can be fairly complex.

<comment><USER6> The actual operations on text buffers are going to be the hardest part to implement in python performantly.

<comment><USER7> They're the bits you could push down to C and/or use one of many jiting options.

<comment><USER2> Realistically this is like saying you could rewrite git in python and just push the hard bits down into C; the problem is that you end up writing a significant portion of both the core, and plugins, in C.

When you're writing all of the main parts of the editor in C, at this point, why are you using python at all?

<comment><USER7> I'm not necessarily defending the rewrite here, but writing something like git in Python, profiling then optimising the parts that are slow doesn't sound like a bad idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > [..] on top of tkinter which is one of the most productive graphical > toolkits.

> ..

> [..] on top of Tkinter that is such a great graphical toolkit.

Right. About as great as pulling teeth. Not that there's many alternatives, of course...

<comment><USER9> Tkinter actually isn't _that_ bad. I've written several fairly large applications with it. You have to re-invent the wheel for several things due to its limited number of "widgets". It used to look very non-native, but that's been largely fixed. Other than that, though, it has a worse reputation than it deserves.

Sure, I'd rather use Qt for something large, but honestly, for a quick-and- dirty gui, it's hard to beat Tk. You can get something reasonably nice looking (at least with recent versions) and reasonably cross-platform very quickly.

<comment><USER10> What sorts of widgets are missing that you are wishing (no pun intended) for.

<comment><USER9> Yay, puns! :)

The first thing that comes to mind are help tooltips (a.k.a. balloons). There are a few third-party libraries, but none of them that I'm aware of get it quite right (especially for tooltips on menu items).

There are couple of other common widgets as well, but I'm having trouble thinking of them at the moment.

At any rate, there aren't too many (and ttk helps immensely in this regard), but it's something you miss coming from Qt.

On the other hand, being able to put a minimal, but very usable gui together with just a few lines of code is a real strength of Tcl/Tk. (Though I usually use Python+Tkinter as I tend to write scientific applications.) There's a lot to be said for the right level simplicity vs batteries-included.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > The source code of the syntax highlighting plugin is about 80 lines of code.

Which is not that big of an achievement considering it depends on pygments for syntax highlighting...

</comment><comment><USER12> I don't believe Bram said it would replace vim I think he took something out of context.

</comment><comment><USER13> "I'm working on a ncurses based library with a symmetrical archicture to python tkinter". That sounds nice.

I'd suggest don't work trying to replace vim in the future. Work to learn and to fix any necessity that by some reason vim is not fulfilling for you. Then the world will say...

The project has a good architecture (plugins seem interesting). But it could use some tidying up.

<comment><USER14>
        > it could use some tidying up.

Yes..

        def beta(area):
            print 'shit'
            area.chmode('BETA')

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Looks interesting but why not Python 3.x?

<comment><USER3> Because there is no good reason to use 3.x and 2.x is the natural choice that makes perfect sense?

<comment><USER16> Why is 2.x the "natural choice"? I'm not saying it's a bad choice, but you seem to be treating it as a given.

<comment><USER17> Enormous install base.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14>
        > a great chance to substitute vim in the future.

Why? What's the advantage over vim?

<comment><USER18> Presumably because of its modularity and extensibility. He was probably right, just look at Neovim.

<comment><USER14> Hm, maybe. I quite like the look of 'plugins', even the vi-ness is handled by one. But it seems a strange thing to say in the readme - it's clearly a long way off being close to a contender.

<comment><USER19> Sometimes, to attract attention, you need to say things that will get people riled up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Interesting project. Vim is riddled with issues and we badly need a replacement (coming from a dedicated Vim user). Currently VimR and NeoVim are in the lead for tackling some of the hard problems (async calls, a real plugin system, obvious features like fuzzy finder with good UI integration, etc).

I found this part amusing: "What did Bram Moolenaar say". After using Vim for a few years, and seeing his design choices, I wouldn't personally be interested in his opinion of an editor!

</comment><comment><USER21> Hm, why do most of his files end with 10 to 15 blank lines of whitespace? Is that a thing or was he just sloppy?

<comment><USER22> I don't think it's "common", but people do it so they can scroll to the last line and have it appear near the top of the page. It's a matter of personal preference. Some editors allow you to scroll that far without the extra lines, many don't.

<comment><USER23> What editors don't do that? I'm only familiar with Emacs and Sublime which do. I'd hate to use an editor that didn't. Hopefully he added that functionality to Vy :)

<comment><USER14> Vim does by default, which he seems to use judging by the .swp files present in git..

<comment><USER24> .swp files in git is further evidence of sloppiness though.

<comment><USER14> Yes, I absolutely agree. I'm sure I've been guilty of it (I'd rid them if I noticed of course) but it's a pretty sloppy-looking project. Not holding my breath for it to replace vim.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Am I wrong in thinking that this is a Tk Text widget (or possibly several), with a selection of functions atop? Plugins for the most part are just key press callbacks which manipulate this Text widget and associated state?

I know every project must start somewhere but this doesn't seem to have considerable substance for a purported next gen vi(m), and given its heavy reliance on pre-made tools (like text areas), without much abstraction, it seems like it would be hard to get over the hump to make it competitive with existing editors.

</comment><comment><USER26> Looks similar to [http://www.vixn.org/](http://www.vixn.org/)

</comment><comment><USER27> Some of the cleanest code I've seen! Pretty fun skimming through files and functions.

<comment><USER25> There's lots of field mutation in the assortment of classes and functions with no documentation. Also lots of stuff that resembles this:

        for ind in chain:
            val = execute(ind, event)

            if val == True:    opt = True
            elif val == False: opt = False

        return opt

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> pyvim ([https://github.com/jonathanslenders/pyvim](https://github.com/jonathanslenders/pyvim)) is also a pretty slick vim clone in python that uses the python prompt toolkit ([https://github.com/jonathanslenders/python-prompt- toolkit](https://github.com/jonathanslenders/python-prompt-toolkit))

<comment><USER29>
      Q
        Why Python?
      A
        The only alternative would be Haskell, but I still have to learn that.

That's... interesting. Would be nice if there was a reason given for that.

<comment><USER30> relevant: [https://github.com/yi-editor/yi](https://github.com/yi-editor/yi)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> this is cool. [https://youtu.be/HXvjh1p7gSY](https://youtu.be/HXvjh1p7gSY)</comment>


RCA student radically improves the UK plug - <AUTHOR> http://www.iconeye.com/news/rca-student-radically-improves-the-uk-plug

<comment><USER2> Nice design. However that article leaves me with a few questions. Does it work? Is it safe? Where's the fuse?</comment>


Threewords.me is up for private auction - <AUTHOR> http://sale.threewords.me/

<comment><USER2> If anyone ever questions the value of the idea versus the value of execution, use this as a cuationary tale. Here's my post outlining this very idea from 2 years ago:

<http://www.manyniches.com/n00b-notes/my3words/>

2 years. I even registered the domain my3words.com.

What did I do with it? Not much. I have no idea if Mark saw my post or not. I kind of hope he did, so that I can feel a little better about not executing. That maybe I inspired him.

However, that doesn't change the bottom line. He executed. Worth-ful. I had the idea, but didn't execute. Worthless.

Hats off to Mark.

<comment><USER3> The whole "ideas are worth nothing" never made a lot of sense.

<comment><USER4> I never got the hacker obsession with idea vs execution. It seems fairly obvious to me that you need both to succeed?

<comment><USER5> Most of us have plenty of ideas and not enough time to execute most of them. So we're more impressed when someone shows us something cool that's actually usable rather than another article about how someone had a vague idea for a cool thing that's supposed to become practical in another 10 years, but which we doubt will ever actually get produced.

In short, it's a lot easier to come up with an idea when you don't have to actually do the work to make it feasible. See also: "I have an idea, I just need a programmer or two."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Have you considered going to a larger company/brand like Dove and getting them to buy it? Your audience seems right in line with their audience and they probably already have a budget for "social media marketing". A good way to reach them might be a big-brand social media consultant like VaynerMedia.com. They could facilitate the sale and make a commission on the amount. I know someone who knows Gary over at Vayner so if you're interested, I could try to make the connection.

Alternatively, I can connect you with an investment banker who specializes in selling internet based businesses, though I'm not sure if he'll be interested since he typically deals in the 7-figures range... but I could run it by him if you want.

I just think having a simple private auction without attracting the right parties to the table might not get you the maximum the site could get. Just my thought.

Anyway, congrats on the success so far and good luck with things. My email is in my profile.

<comment><USER7> Hey Melvin — thanks for the suggestions! The only thing I'm not sure about is why a general brand would want a threewords.me-like property under them. What's a brand's motive for acquiring properties such as mine?

Yeah, probably true that it's not the best exposure. TechCrunch just picked it up ([http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/17/weeks-after-going-viral- thr...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/17/weeks-after-going-viral-threewords- me-is-up-for-sale/)) but selling in a simple private auction is only one step up from Flippa. And maybe one sideways.

Thanks for your help, man - will shoot you an email.

<comment><USER8> It proves to someone's bosses that they get this whole social media thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Glad to see this already submitted :)

Yeah, I'm working on way too much stuff, and threewords.me started up as a side project that I didn't have any interest in continuing it long-term (more interested in developing <http://supportbreeze.com> and others).

The press curve has slowed, but a lot of users are still hitting the site (new and returning) — every new feature I get is hugely adopted within minutes.

<comment><USER9> Hey, one quick thing I noticed about supportbreeze. I noticed a lack of clear confirmation when hovering the button "Get started for free" I can tell a faint color change however there is no clear indication of my selection.

Whereas hovering other links gives a visual mouse indication and a visual indication over the link.

Is that by design?

<comment><USER10> It would be better to add _cursor:pointer;_ to _a#mk2_gs_ selector.

<comment><USER7> Ah, great point. I'll have to do that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> How can you sell something with no terms and conditions mentioned that he is selling, "Sale includes data, domain, brand."

And then continue to say, "We promise we won't spam" on the signup page?

How does that work then?

<comment><USER12> Well, I take it that /he's/ promising not to spam. The same that I can promise that no crimes will happen in my home- it's only as good as long as it's _my_ home, not someone else's, and I can reasonably manage things.

Even with a friendly-reading T&C he'd be free to break it any time, as would any future purchaser. I'm not a laywer but I'd believe T&Cs exist more to protect a site than its users, presenting the general terms and conditions the users can expect a site to be presented under, not a guarantee of of the same.

<comment><USER13> Pre-existing contracts may be binding on someone who purchases a business. So the buyer of a web site might be bound by the TOS. Thus, a promise to customers could survive the company changing hands. (I can't speak to the particulars of this case, though.)

The flip side is that TOSs typically have some provision for amendment. Such provisions might be invoked by a company's new management. However, the management has to be careful even then, because of this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract>

Again, I'm not suggesting that any of this would necessarily apply to threewords.me. This is just my understanding of how it works in general.

BTW, I couldn't find a link to the TOS for threewords.me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Very smart move this, rather than to figure out how to monetize it monetize it by selling it while the growth curve is still exponential.

Also, looking at alexa it seems as though the period of hyper fast growth is already a bit past:

<http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/threewords.me>

Still, it should fetch a pretty penny and to the right party it might be worth quite a lot of money.

<comment><USER15> I'm genuinely curious why you suggest the growth curve on this is exponential at this point? I saw this thread on HN when he originally posted it, and while it wasn't something I would personally be interested in I imagined it might fit a certain demographic. The question for me was always the staying power with a quick hit site like this.

Now having seen a wider window of stats on the site from quantcast, all arrows are pointing down and to the right. I agree that he's smart to try to sell it, but only because the longer he holds onto it the less opportunity there will be to capitalize on the original spike.

<comment><USER14> > I'm genuinely curious why you suggest the growth curve on this is > exponential at this point?

I didn't suggest that.

I did add this bit after writing that first sentence when I thought of checking to see if that was still the case, and it wasn't:

> Also, looking at alexa it seems as though the period of hyper fast growth is > already a bit past:

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> If I was a digital agency/consultancy, I'd snap this up. I think it would be fairly easy to fork and customize for big brands that want to do Facebook promotions, reviews, focus groups, etc.

"Tell us your 3 favorite items at Applebee's ..."

"Thanks for trying the new filet mignon chalupa at Taco Bell. Describe it in 3 words ... "

"What 3 things are most important when choosing your next car? ..."

(I'm sure someone more creative could do better, but you get the idea)

<comment><USER7> Good ideas. Some brands and celebrities have a threewords.me with cool results, like Smashing Magazine: <http://threewords.me/smashingmag>

Also celebrities (thanks to @Mazy) like Young Money's Lil Twist - <http://threewords.me/liltwist>

I also did a test for using sentiment analysis as a monetization point, using the Amazon Kindle (question was, "What do you think of the Amazon Kindle?") which was displayed on top of the dashboard for all users, and it got something like 7,000 responses. The responses weren't amazing, but it is possible to improve them. There was zero targeting on whether or not the "sponsored listing" was displayed, whereas Smashing Mag's results are clean since the only people submitting words are people that know what Smashing Magazine is.

<comment><USER17> I only see spams from most of the msg. I think you are doing a right thing trying to capitalize while the hype is there. Based on alexa, it is dying out already.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Did you get any bids yet?

Not asking the offer price, just the number of bids (from HN).

<comment><USER7> I've gotten three or four.

<comment><USER19> Lost count already?

<comment><USER20> I have a friend who once talking about how he had "one or two" one night stands in his life.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> How much revenue is generated from Threewords.me? Is it even profitable?

Also, I'm wondering how the process of transferring the actual website would go? Will the buyer usually take over the servers which the seller has setup?

<comment><USER22> Haha, hey everyone this guy thinks profitability with this matters! Everyone point and laugh!

I highly doubt even Mark thinks this product has legs with monetisation, it's a fad at best. He's clever for cashing in now, it'll be dead soon unless the new owner works out how to expand.

<comment><USER23> Twitter is a pretty silly concept, and their valuation is non-comical.

<comment><USER22> Twitter isn't a silly concept, it's a global SMS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Does anyone know how much the 253,000 email addresses (userbase of threewords) could be worth to a company that runs another social platform?

I imagine that, regardless of whether threewords continues to grow, a related service (like formspring) could add threewords functionality to their own service, then email the threewords userbase letting them know what's up, and re-engaging them..

Is the response rate for those kind of emails pretty good, or would that not be a huge factor in the sale price?

</comment><comment><USER25> Making the bids public would definitely be a good idea (one person bids x, person 2 bids x+500, etc).

<comment><USER14> No, it would not be a good idea at all.

Let's just for a second pretend that I'd be an interested party (I won't be bidding).

I would assume that most of the people bidding are not 'players', I'd assume that they would just try to get it for a song and a bit, the equivalent of buying Manhattan from the Indians because they're not aware of what it's worth.

Mark is a smart guy so he won't be going for that.

The second group of potential buyers would be more savvy and would bid higher, they'd be outbidding each other bit by bit, probably in increments of 1,000 $US until they ran out of steam.

With the last moment of the bidding already announced the real players would wait until the very last moment and would then bid based on what the highest of the second group has bid using that as a way to guide their decision, in the hope that nobody else would be bidding a similar amount.

In a 'blind' bid like this, assuming a party _really_ wants to get their hands on it they will have to decide what it's worth to them to get it, rather than to let the market do their valuation work for them. This may very well lead to substantially higher bids.

If I were Mark I'd add two things (if he decides to make the bidding public, which I would not advise him to do):

\- Extend the bidding with 15 or 30 minutes after every new highest bid

\- keep the identity of the bidders secret, just show the highest bid

Since he's already under way and it is difficult to change the rules once the game has started I don't think that is a viable option any longer anyway.

<comment><USER26> Sure, he could just run it like Swoopo.com and charge people for each bid they make

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> OMG. Don't sell work it!! Work on it. You've gotten people to tag other people. Think of the possibilities.

So much better than a support system (done and done) IMHO.

Of course, if you have no interest in working with social space stuff, then okay, I can't argue with that. But the fact you launched this product means there's something there you want to do.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'm not sure of how big the bids are so far but have you thought of open sourcing it?! The traffic is exhibiting decay as time goes by and only would be a while before it hits the graveyard. Might as well give others a chance to learn something from this project and tweak it to their ideas and relaunch it in some form.

just my 0.02$

</comment><comment><USER29> I understand you have time constraints and other things on your plate, but it seems to me that you created an entirely new form of social interaction. I think your site is in the same league as <http://formspring.me> (which has $24m in funding).

I would hate for you to sell for 5 figures only to see a much higher valuation in only a couple of years.

Your concept is well executed and if you have traffic, you should be able to monetize without being too innovative. I like the idea of surveys or branded pages.

Good luck though, with whatever you decide!

<comment><USER7> Thanks for your thoughts! I can't really say I'm having second thoughts, but more like 1.5nd thoughts... I just don't know where to expand from here. The concept is great and the virality is really cool, but... something just isn't there.

<comment><USER29> Something just isn't there, but only because you haven't added it yet...Your idea works as a concept, it just needs to be tweaked.

If you don't get a price you like, keep the site, add advertisements and collect data. As people's profiles fill up with qualities, you may be able to determine what kind of ads people are likely to click on.

I also like the idea of selling companies a spot where people can comment on their brand or different ideas. The site could evolve into a kind of instant survey for concepts and ideas (from brands). I.E. They post an image of a new design and the users can describe in 3 words what they think. It would allow a company to get instant feedback and know if they have a homerun or not before something is produced or fully developed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I wish the publication logos lit up when you mouse over'd on them. Just me?

<comment><USER7> Me too, but I only had 30 minutes to make that page. Ton of work today.

<comment><USER31> Please don't take offense to this, Mark, but if you only have 30 minutes to work on this, then your priorities are _very much_ in the wrong place.

You're talking about doing something that could make you real-world money that goes in the bank. Spend _all_ of your time selling threewords, then use the money from that to fund your other ideas. Being "too busy" means that you're doing something wrong.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> It's hard to estimate a reasonable price for this if you don't have any revenues. Whereas you could usually discount future cash flows, in this case you would need to estimate the goodwill - which probably means what you're willing to pay for maintaining this site as a hobby.

BTW. does this page still get a lot of hits? I've seen on my past projects (albeit on a much smaller scale) that those services usually spike for a few days and then quickly die off - what are the current usage statistics?

</comment><comment><USER33> Why not sell through Flippa?

<comment><USER34> He always has the option to go to Flippa later if he doesn't get the value he wants here. From my limited experience, Flippa is kind of a liquidation market more than a source for competitive bids. Your mileage may vary.

<comment><USER7> This, exactly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Knowing the rate of page views would be good as well; having total page views is a bit misleading.

</comment><comment><USER36> I think this is a great way to monetize your cool idea. Your site went viral in a few days and still has this potential. Please let us know how this went. We all have to think about monetizing our ideas this or other ways.

</comment><comment><USER37> I am impressed by the amount of press coverage Mark got :)

<comment><USER38> He deserved it because its difficult to generate that many page views in such a short span of time. Plus its a great app!

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Any thoughts on possible monetization strategies/revenue model?</comment>


Kendo UI Core - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/telerik/kendo-ui-core

<comment><USER2> The previous GPLv3 was the complete package.

This change actually removes features that the GPLv3 had. In particular, the main one and the reason most companies would want to buy a commercial license now is the Grid component. I understand their complete package will have ASP.NET MVC bindings but those aren't necessary.

So, in a way, this is really bad news for open source projects as it effectively takes away a component that is at the heart of why Kendo UI may be used instead of jQuery UI.

They have in effect basically screwed over completely open source projects. For them the only change is that they lose functionality.

But, Telerik is a for-proit company and they've always struggled with the licensing for this as they didn't know how it would fit with their commercial goals. I don't think they've got it right now.

Personally, I see no reason to use this even now. jQuery UI is not maintained by a commercial company and is just as good. I can be confident that the license for jQuery UI isn't going to be messed around with based on new corporate goals. The Kendo UI versus jQuery UI site does a good job of doing the comparison but without the grid component, its a hard sell.

EDIT: I do want to add that overall this is great news. I'm pointing out the nuances of this decision. For people already using this and don't need the other components or can find substitutes, it makes sense to continue to use it and not have to buy licenses. Also, I hope Telerik somehow addresses this and not ignore it.

<comment><USER3> I prefer a library with Apache2 over GPLv3 even with less features, because I can use it everywhere. More use --> more contributions.

Commercial interest in a library makes it more appealing for me, because it means there is money for long term development/maintenance, and I think it's much more likely that it will be not abandoned compared to an alternative open source project without commercial interest in it. Ok, jquery UI is huge and it will not go away, but if I want to go with a library similar to Kendo, I would choose Kendo over that!

<comment><USER4> I can't even wrap my head around why someone would care about fully permissive licenses over GPL for front end JavaScript libraries, everyone gets access to your source when you serve it to them anyway.

<comment><USER5> Not necessarily. There are many rich client applications (say, for instance, an in-browser multimedia editor or webmail client) whose JS code might be nontrivial and distributed only in minified/obfuscated form, for the company to maintain a competitive advantage over imitators. In that case, those companies would not want to use GPL'ed JS libraries, since they would then be required to provide the JS source code of the entire rest of their client in unminified form.

Also, there are statements like these, from the primary developer of Ext.js which went GPL for a while a few years ago:

> Suppose you have an index.php that includes Ext JS. According to the FSF, in > that case index.php would be also under GPL since it is using ext. Since it > must be GPL, it's source must be distributed. Since it is GPL, the "viral" > effect of GPL is now in effect and any thing that uses index.php (if > anything) on the serverside would also fall under the GPL. (Note: Note this > is a pretty gray area)

However, this is the exact opposite of what the FSF's FAQ on the GPL _actually_ says.

> A company is running a modified version of a GPL'ed program on a web site. > Does the GPL say they must release their modified sources? (#UnreleasedMods)

> The GPL permits anyone to make a modified version and use it without ever > distributing it to others. What this company is doing is a special case of > that. Therefore, the company does not have to release the modified sources. > It is essential for people to have the freedom to make modifications and use > them privately, without ever publishing those modifications. However, > putting the program on a server machine for the public to talk to is hardly > "private" use, so it would be legitimate to require release of the source > code in that special case. Developers who wish to address this might want to > use the GNU Affero GPL for programs designed for network server use.

Now, if I took these two passages to my corporate lawyer and asked him whether we should use Ext.js with closed-source _server-side_ software even if it might open us up to a lawsuit from Ext.js due to their interpretation of the contract, he would take one look at me and smack me on the head for suggesting that we open ourselves up to something like that.

EDIT: Sources.

[https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- faq.html#UnreleasedMods](https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- faq.html#UnreleasedMods)

[http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthread.php?33096-License- Cha...](http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthread.php?33096-License- Change/page3&p=156236#post156236)

<comment><USER6> I think I will shoot the EFF an email asking for an update on that now that GPL3 is trying to accomplish the same thing as the Affero license (anti- Tivoization). That '#UnreleasedMods' section appears to have been written for GPL2.

<comment><USER5> Please let HN know if you learn anything! There's so much FUD in this space, it's very difficult to know what one can use safely.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Although not all features are included in Kendo UI Core. Official Telerik press release can be found here: [http://www.telerik.com/company/press- releases/2014/04/16/tel...](http://www.telerik.com/company/press- releases/2014/04/16/telerik-open-sources-world-s-largest-library-of-ui-tools- and-javascript-framework-features-with-telerik-kendo-ui-core)

<comment><USER7> Disclaimer: - ex-teleriker here.

Awesome news. I think I read 40+ widgets somewhere this morning and in this press-release it's 38+. Anyways, it's still great.

I hope they will transfer in the OSS packet the grid and the treeview, soon. (nice tripwire :P)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> First Kendo impression: Unnecessarily verbose docs, completely bloated @ 1.4MB of js minified, super-monolithic, probably a royal pain to use with angular or ember.

No way in hell I'm using this.

</comment><comment><USER9> I'm sort of confused on pricing.

[http://www.telerik.com/purchase.aspx](http://www.telerik.com/purchase.aspx)

Is the pro widgets like the editor and tree view available at the $699 price point ?

<comment><USER2> Yes, that's right.

The UI for XXXX which start at $999 are for the ASP.NET MVC, PHP, JSP, etc. bindings.

I would suspect most of the money that Telerik makes are from the binding licences (Microsoft likely the biggest).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I love their Kendo UI Web widgets, especially the Grid, quite powerful: [http://demos.telerik.com/kendo- ui/web/grid/index.html](http://demos.telerik.com/kendo-ui/web/grid/index.html)

<comment><USER11> [https://datatables.net/](https://datatables.net/) I am not sure if this is the original base for Kendo UI's Grid. But this is great.

<comment><USER12> This has always been my go-to for data grids</comment></comment></comment>


The History of Ketchup - <AUTHOR> https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2019/01/the-history-of-ketchup/ <comment><USER2> > Ketchup was not invented in the United States. It began as a fermented fish > sauce — sans tomatoes — in early China. British sailors bought the sauce, > called ke-tsiap or ke-tchup by 17th-century Chinese and Indonesian traders, > to provide relief from the dry and mundane hardtack and salt pork they ate > aboard ship. Over the next couple of centuries, ketchup spread throughout > the British Empire, traveling around the world with the navy.

Supposedly Asian fish sauces are similar to both Worcestershire sauce [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce) and the ancient Roman _garum_ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum) . Some say that _Colatura di alici_ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_Alici](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_Alici) from Cetara in Italy is the best of them all.

<comment><USER3> The (surely apocryphal) origin story I heard for Worcestershire sauce was that it was a (failed) attempt to replicate an Indian tamarind chutney, which was abandonded, left to ferment in barrels, and rediscovered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been eating ketchup for 40 years. I've never kept it in the fridge. I hate putting a thick cold sauce on hot food. I've always assumed that the vinegar and preservatives were enough to make it last for the short time a bottle of ketchup lasts in my house.

<comment><USER5> Same, no problems yet. A hypothesis I found while looking into it: shelf life of condiments nowadays might be less than it used to be due to manufacturers cutting sugar and salt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The history of ketchup is covered in the first 15 minutes or so of this talk:

[https://youtu.be/R7RP9rMDnBE](https://youtu.be/R7RP9rMDnBE)

</comment><comment><USER7> Malcolm Gladwell wrote an excellent piece in the New Yorker 15 years ago on this topic. Worth a read.

[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup- co...](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-conundrum/)

</comment><comment><USER8> This guy does a pretty good version, I tried it, not bad at all

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks&t=311s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29u_FejNuks&t=311s)

</comment><comment><USER9> So what's the difference between ketchup and catsup?

<comment><USER9> > Is there a difference between ketchup and catsup?

> No. (Rest easy, Mr. Burns.) Both are names for a sauce that once was made > using a variety of ingredients, including mushrooms and walnuts, and is now > primarily made using tomatoes.[0]

[0] [http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/04/22/ketchup_vs_ca...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/04/22/ketchup_vs_catsup_differences_none_at_all_video.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I once made my own ketchup. After nearly 2 hours of work the result tasted pretty much like a really cheap and not very good commercial ketchup. Before you add sugar and vinegar, it tastes like a delicious Indian tomato sauce, though.

</comment><comment><USER11> Mushroom version: [https://youtu.be/29u_FejNuks](https://youtu.be/29u_FejNuks)</comment>