The iPad Falls Short as a Creation Tool Without Coding Apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/03/ipad-creation/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29 <comment><USER2> _This could be a simple tool that creates some rudimentary iOS apps (plenty of apps in the App Store would be considered subpar anyway), and purchasing it should include a free developer's license for kids to get started programming._

I can't believe this article _quotes Mark Pilgrim_ and yet inexplicably fails to note the presence of the first-class, top-quality, absolutely free Javascript runtime that is built into every iPad. No license required, and you can built more than just _rudimentary_ tablet apps with JS if you are so inclined. Bonus: They will run on your friends' machines too, even if those machines don't run iOS.

So this article is just a giant pile of fallacy.

And, yes, if you are a young hacker who has exhausted the possibilities of web apps and who wants to develop for iOS you will have to spend money. To wit: you need at least a second-hand Macintosh, and to actually run your apps on a device you need a $99/year developer subscription.

But how soon we forget that to write first-class apps for, say, the Apple II also cost money. One reason that I was a lousy Apple II assembly programmer is that I never owned a real macro assembler [1], because those cost real money:

<http://apple2history.org/history/ah17/#05>

The cheapest commercial assembler in this list, the "four character" Microproducts Assembler, was "inexpensive at only $39.95" in 1980. But $39.95 in 1980 dollars is $102.67 in 2009 dollars.

I didn't know about that assembler back in 1980. Instead I vaguely knew that real programmers used Merlin, but I remember Merlin costing _real_ money. I can't find reference to the original price, but it must have been at least, say, $75 1980 dollars ($193 in 2009) and might have even been several hundred dollars ($400+ in 2009).

What I really wanted to use in the 1980s was Pascal. I taught myself Pascal from a book, circa 1984; I wrote all my code on pieces of paper and never executed it because it was another two years before I got my hands on my first Pascal compiler. The Apple Pascal compiler cost hundreds of dollars. It came out in 1979 at $495. ($1443.88 in 2009 dollars). No way I was going to afford _that_.

Of course, eventually we were all saved when Turbo Pascal came out, and later Turbo C. Turbo Pascal 1.0 was legendary for being inexpensive and accessible: It was only $54.95 (with shipping) in 1984. Of course, that's $112 in 2009 dollars. And you needed to own an IBM PC or a CP/M machine, which I did not, and which could not be bought on Craigslist for a few hundred (2009) bucks the way a second-hand Intel Macintosh can.

Of course, you could pirate Turbo Pascal. If you could find someone else who owned it and was willing to give it to you. In the days before broadband and BitTorrent that was much more difficult: You had to learn about BBSes, and about such esoteric concepts as _leeching_ , and you had to learn to live without the documentation.

The scrounging process is now much easier. Obviously, "piracy" is now simple and fun, but you needn't even resort to that: You can scrounge everything you need for iOS development legally and fairly easily -- schools own Macs, libraries own Macs, xCode can be downloaded for five bucks, and the docs are all free and legal, and even the emulator is free. The only thing you can't fudge is the $99 license to install your apps. But you can find one friend or teacher who has the license and convince them to install your app for you, legally. If there's popular demand for school libraries to own iOS developer licenses we could easily start a charity to donate some.

\---

[1] Though this is just the least embarrassing reason, not the most significant reason.

<comment><USER3> I'm sorry, but you seem to be responding to a strawman. No one is claiming you can't make apps that target an iPad: they are saying there is no rudimentary way to make apps USING an iPad.

The original comment was that people don't need Macs anymore: that kids can just have an iPad. This article claims that that overlooks the importance of programming.

Meanwhile, the points in the article are both about a lack of a development environment /and/ that the input mechanisms available aren't even appropriate for the task.

You can disagree with those points if you want, but you can't just claim "dude: JavaScript", and believe you won some battle. Yeah: there's JavaScript... now what? Can I edit HTML files on the device and load them? No.

An argument you /could/ try to make is that anyone can get an account on EC2 and then use iSSH from the App Store and the bluetooth keyboard to do development, attempting (painfully) to task switch between a browser that barely has a memory cache (and has no disk cache) and an SSH client that is killed if you leave it in the background for longer than a minute. Of course, that's all assuming you manage to get your EC2 server bootstrapped using the web console, which I think might actually be a flash app... I guess there are other hosting companies, right?

<comment><USER4> "JavaScript Anywhere"[1] is a simple & portable development environment for Web Programmer.

\----

[1]: [http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/javascript- anywhere/id3634522...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/javascript- anywhere/id363452277?mt=8)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You can't create a guitar with a guitar either. Programming is only one type of creation, and not every computing device _must_ support programming. The mindset that "computers are for computing" is holding the industry back.

The author makes the argument that if you can't create applications for the iPad with the iPad, youth will experience a disincentive to build programs. I posit two things:

A) That disincentive is offset by the appeal of the iOS platform and the "magic" of a solid touch platform (hardware and software)

B) Not every musician wants to make their own instrument

The author also holds up the rejection of Scratch as proof of his other arguments. I view applications like Scratch as a distinct issue, separate from "professional" application tools on iOS. I understand why Apple doesn't want to allow tools like Scratch -- because they don't want to create loopholes -- but I do find it disappointing that they don't make an exception for educational products. I've not seen a computing device that reaches kids like the iPad does, and it would be great if we could at least introduce them to the concept directly on the iPad.

I believe there is a big opportunity here for web app developers to fill a void. Take a look at CoffeeScript. If someone can re-package Javascript in a way that resembles Ruby, I don't see why that template couldn't be pushed further.

<comment><USER6> The issue with client side Javascript is that innovative code cannot be effectively kept private.

<comment><USER5> This is the case for every website you visit, yet it doesn't seem to be a problem. Technology people often make the mistake of believing that the technology is the product. I believe we've passed the time in computing where that is a requirement. Anyone can grab a text editor and hammer out some code. What makes a product great is the confluence of all the factors that you can't write in code. The application is part of the equation. I'm not arguing that the code can be bad; I'm arguing that you need more.

For example, GitHub is driven by git. This is a tool that anyone can download and use. The entire GitHub interface is HTML/JS. I could run through and rip off every bit of their interface code and I'd be a large portion of the way toward running my own GitHub. There's the issue of the server-side code and scalability, but these are problems I can solve with a reasonable up-front investment and iterative problem-solving, just like everyone else. What I _can't_ clone is the community and spirit of GitHub.

If the success of your organization relies on the inability of your competitors to copy your product, you have a much bigger problem.

<comment><USER6> The argument is that the javascript development is a reasonable substitute for native programming - and in terms of protecting trade secrets it is not.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "As a professional Final Cut Pro videomaker myself, I was personally frustrated that Apple kept making it easier and easier for anyone to replicate my technical skills with much simpler tools."

Sounds like something a tosser would say if you ask me.

<comment><USER8> It's definitely something a Luddite would say.

<comment><USER8> Why the downvotes? The Luddites were skilled artisans objecting to advances in technology taking their jobs away. Doesn't that sound in the _least_ bit familiar here?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> i downloaded tubotax for my ipad, fired it up, realized how much data input i'd be doing and how much of a chore it would be and headed for my desktop...

it's all about the right tools for the job, and i still believe that the ipad is best used for consuming.

programming is inherently a lot of typing, scrolling and adjusting. unless you hook up a real keyboard and/or a mouse or invent some damn elegant ui paradigms ... i'm just not seeing this being a strong tool in the programmers toolkit. reviewing code, perhaps? but the daily grind, not so much. at least not in the near future...

</comment><comment><USER10> This problem probably won't be solved by Apple, but it will be solved by others who are working on browser-based IDEs right now.

There are several browser-based programming sites such as <http://www.playmycode.com/>, cloud9, <http://jsdo.it>, jsfiddle, etc. Even Eclipse is coming out with a browser-based version soon (project orion). Now, some of these don't work on mobile or tablet devices yet (broken contenteditable in the browser), but they will. See for example the codemirror 2 editor, which does work on an ipad, albeit not perfectly: <http://codemirror.net/2/>

A related issue is what the author talks about - it's harder and slower to type on an ipad or smart phone than a device with a regular keyboard. I don't know of a solution to that yet. Perhaps it will involve better touch-driven keyboards (sort of like swype and related options - but tailored for programming), or perhaps using voice or the camera (gesture recognition) for input, or perhaps we'll just adapt and get used to the current on screen keyboards - kids aren't really complaining about them, and are pretty fast at using them, but there's a difference between typing a text message and programming with all the special symbols and indenting used (a pain without a regular keyboard). Or perhaps more scratch-like programming environments will gain popularity (program by dragging and dropping blocks instead of typing). See my post: [http://edtechdev.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/contentnoteditable...](http://edtechdev.wordpress.com/2011/03/03/contentnoteditable- what-the-death-of-the-mouse-and-keyboard-mean-for-content-creators/)

</comment><comment><USER11> Kids will be growing up with desktop computers for a long time to come, and now they have a fun and lucrative platform they can write programs for. It's a great time to be a budding hacker.

That said, a sort of elementary tool to make toy apps or games on the iPad would be a good gateway drug.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm quite lucky to be working with and developing on Apple hardware because while I paid for my MacBook, iPhone, iPad and ADC account my parents were paying for my access to university and I live with my parents.

But a lot of people don't have that, I hope Apple follows the line of MSDN Academic Alliance and partners with all walks of educational institutions to open up the Apple development platform to students for free. I don't mean give them a free iPad but give them Xcode 4 and a non-commercial ADC license for free.

With the continued growth of Apple Stores maybe they could run introduction to the Objective C and Cocoa frameworks for those who wouldn't normally have access to it?

</comment><comment><USER13> Dear programmer.

You are not the ipad's target demographic.

The end.

<comment><USER13> Its like a sports car enthusiast getting into a generic 'coupe' with an Automatic gearbox and whining about the lack of a stick shift.

It just doesn't make any sense, and these kinds of posts show that our community really doesn't understand exactly why the ipad is the success that it is.

<comment><USER14> Approving Scratch would've killed the iPad? Are you serious?

Apple is worried that Netflix or Amazon will stream movies and ebooks through Scracth Apps and bypass the 30% cut or what?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Can't you just use a remote desktop app if you want to program using your ipad?

<comment><USER7> Can't you just record a movie of yourself dictating your code line by line to camera and email that to India where it can be transcribed into XCode for you?</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best Linux/dev laptop as of October 2015? - <AUTHOR> I want to replace my macbook air 11 by something light, quiet and running linux. Is it possible now? <comment><USER2> It'd be hard for us to make this decision for you. Some people feel like they really need a huge screen, some don't. You have lots of personal preferences that we don't know.

Here's a process you can follow to decide, though:

1\. Find a laptop you like that's in your price range.

2\. Buy the laptop, making sure it has a no-questions-asked return policy with no restocking fee (Amazon, Microsoft, and certain OEMs all have this). I think the Dell XPS 13/15 are good places to start, as Dell officially supports Linux on these.

3\. Try your favorite Linux distro by booting "live" from a USB drive. Ubuntu is a good option for laptops because you can usually Google "ubuntu [insert problem] [insert laptop]" and find a forum post about it.

4\. If Linux doesn't work well enough for you, return the laptop and start again at step 1. I haven't so far had any more issues with Ubuntu on a laptop than I have on a desktop, so I don't know that you'd have to do this many times. To be honest, though, the problems on both laptops and desktops were too great, and I finally switched back to Windows after 5 years. Your mileage will vary, I'm sure.

<comment><USER3> Just a reminder regarding the Dell XPS. Dell officially supports Linux on these _only_ on the developer editions. The Windows versions differ in things like the Wi-Fi module and are not recommended if you plan to use Linux.

<comment><USER2> > Windows versions differ in things like the Wi-Fi module

Really? That's odd. Is there a parts sheet that lets you check which module the Windows version uses?

<comment><USER3> According to ArchWiki[1] the Windows version and Developer editions use Dell DW1560 and Intel 7265 respectively.

[1] [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_13_(2015)#Mode...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Dell_XPS_13_\(2015\)#Model_differences)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been using a Samsung Series 9 ([http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082PZ1JU](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0082PZ1JU)) with Linux for about three years and I've been very happy with the laptop.

All the special function keys work, battery life is good, sleep works, etc. The only imperfection is that after I close the lid and it goes to sleep, when I reopen it, it forgets that I've disabled the trackpad, so I have to press the function button that disables the trackpad each time it comes back from sleep (I use an external mouse).

<comment><AUTHOR> Which linux do you use? I really like how samsung series 9 looks like, and I suggested my friend to buy it three years ago. He also like the laptop, but he told me that he has some performance problems in ubuntu.

<comment><USER4> I use ubuntu, and haven't noticed any performance issues. What sorts of things did your friend report?

Edit: I have a model with 8GB RAM and SSD, but some models have less RAM and solid-state drives.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I am a big fan of the Asus Zenbook Core M ([http://www.ultrabookreview.com/5868-asus-zenbook- ux305-revie...](http://www.ultrabookreview.com/5868-asus-zenbook- ux305-review/)).

Low power CPU, plenty of RAM, large enough SSD, 1080p, and a matte screen. As I spend most of my time in remote SSH terminals, the Core M doesn't bother me. It is lightweight and fast enough.

I am looking forward to the updated Zenbook, supposed to be released this quarter.

Also, the price is right on.

</comment><comment><USER6> I have a Thinkpad T450S and it is working amazingly with Fedora 22.

It is very lightweight and battery life / support is good in Linux Kernel 4.x

<comment><USER7> Yep, was about to recommend this.

My configuration is about the same[ _] with SSD, and I 'm super happy with this for my Linux/Virtualization development environment.

[_] I'm using T440s, by the time I got this last year in OCT-2014, the T450s, which is reverted to the sensible clickpad (with "two right and left clickers"[1]), wasn't released yet.

[1] [http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/04/lenovo- thinkpad-x1-carbon...](http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/04/lenovo- thinkpad-x1-carbon-2015/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I decided on a touchscreen Chromebook. flashed firmware, and installed gentoo. Runs like a dream. battery lasts for about 5 hours in KDE/Plasma 5. 3D is good enough to play minecraft at 50fps with high settings. Stick a bigger hard drive in if you care, in this era of cloud computing and flash storage.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Is it hard to flash it? Which one do you use?

<comment><USER8> (CTRL-ALT-T to get a terminal in chrome, then type "shell") copy-paste the rom download script from johnlewis.ie, backup your firmware from the menu, then flash the firmware and boot your favorite LiveUSB of choice. I use KaOS[0] as my preferred LiveCD while I install arch (with OpenRC) or Gentoo.

I have a C720P. There are two versions. should you have the older version (cyapa touchpad module), any modern kernel will work. If you have a Elan touchpad (i.e. touchpad doesn't work on boot), you'll have to patch a kernel driver. I could create a full overlay for my gentoo modifications, but I doubt anyone would want to use it. :)

0\. [http://kaosx.us](http://kaosx.us)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I have been using a System 76 Gazelle Pro since 2012 running either Ubuntu or Mint and I love it. They are solid laptops. The help center is very friendly and knowledgeable. I had one problem when I first got my machine and they handled it in about 10 minutes with a link to a new linux kernel.

</comment><comment><USER10> If you don't need the newest and fastest, I recommend a ThinkPad X201 (upgrade the LCD to an AFFS one if you like a little DIY), or you can go really hard and get an X61.

Debian has worked great on both.

<comment><USER11> I'd say that since X201 go so cheap nowadays, you might as well add $20 to that and get a X220 instead for better hinges, trackpad and CPU juice.

<comment><USER10> Disagreed - the X220 top lid is flimsy and cracks easily, and the resolution is impressively terrible (WXGA! In 2015!). I do appreciate its moderate battery improvements, but I'd prefer an X201 in just about any other way.

EDIT: I almost forgot that the X220 front bezel warps outwards in even the slightest cast of sunlight on a nice day. It's pretty alarming when it's not expected.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I dig my x220, nicest laptop I've ever owned and completely repairable. I've replaced a few minor things and the screen with relative ease. I've seen a few macbook pros die bought before and after my x220 with things that just weren't repairable... forget that. If you want to buy something that lasts longer than the warranty without major hassles, get something repairable.

</comment><comment><USER13> I recommend Lenovo X1 carbon 3rd gen. At 2.8 pounds, it is lighter than the Macbook Air but with a bigger 14 inch screen. I run Ubuntu on it and am pretty happy with it.

</comment><comment><USER14> I would recommend Lenovo Z70 loaded with 16GB RAM, 1TB HDD and Core i7. Its sleek, bit wide but correctly priced at $800. Also it comes with Basic NVIDIA GPU.

</comment><comment><USER15> My vote goes for the x250.

Great keyboard, nice 1080p display, trackpoint, (hot)swappable batteries and several storage options.

The trackpad sucks and RAM runs on single channel though.

<comment><USER16> I have this laptop. The 8gb ram is a real issue for me (due to VM usage), so I'm looking to switch away from it.

That said, aside from the memory issue.. I love this laptop.

<comment><USER15> You could always get one of those new 16gb modules.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Ubuntu 14 worked after changing some EFI garbage in the BIOS on my 2015 Lenovo Carbon X1

</comment><comment><USER18> I got a macbook pro back in July and I just use homebrew to install the linux equivalents I need. I have a few VPS machines running Ubuntu 14.04 and all my code works fine between both environments

<comment><USER19> I got a MacBook Pro too. Couldn't find a linux laptop that was equivalent tbh

<comment><USER18> I really did want a real linux box, but the resolution and integration of the hardware and software on osx is really nice. I was using a asus netbook prior to this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Thinkpad T450S</comment>


Google Trends: Javascript Frameworks - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5&q=angular.js%20%2B%20angularjs%20%2B%20%22angular%20js%22%2C%20ext.js%20%2B%20%20extjs%2B%20%22ext%20js%22%2C%20backbone.js%20%2B%20%20backbonejs%20%2B%20%22backbone%20js%22%2C%20ember.js%20%2B%20emberjs%20%2B%20%22ember%20js%22%2C%20knockout.js%20%2B%20knockoutjs%20%2B%20%22knockout%20js%22&cmpt=q

<comment><USER2> I feel like these numbers may be skewed due to Ext's miserable documentation and inconsistent behavior. There simply isn't much good ext related info out there once you want to do anything complex (and thus one using Ext spends more time entering queries). I feel like >50% of my Ext related searches end up fruitless and I'm stuck banging on it till I can determine how it actually works (vs. how the docs might make you think it works).

Or maybe I'm dense.

<comment><USER3> It's not just you. Ext has grown into a gui toolkit unlike something like Smartclient which was born from gui toolkit experience. The Smartclient api makes WAY more sense in everyway and every method is where you expect it to be, unlike Ext which makes bizarre infruriating choices and results in you buying a cookbook in order to be anywhere near productive with it.

I bet you we could fund a kickstarter with angry ex-Ext users.

<comment><USER2> At least form a support group?

It's nice to hear that someone else finds Ext's choices hard to understand at times, I'm the only guy around here who needs to work with it so it can be hard to know when it is me and when it is something fishy.

Don't get me started about the almost completely undocumented "Sencha Architect" which overwrites any changes you make to code in another editor when you re open a project....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> KnockoutJS for me, its such a nice solution for the presentation view management. It also has some neat extension libraries, including external template engine, which loads rendering templates and caches them on demand. I use Jquery dependent SammyJS for navigation management. I have shell that manages loading view model/ views based on Sammy's intercepts...pretty happy, though I hear good things about angularJS, but it came along just a little too late for me to properly evaluate.

<comment><USER5> Second that. The recently updated Visual Studio Tools come with new MVC templates for single page apps using Durandal, which is based on Knockout and Sammy. There is also a node.js package and skeleton of Durandal. Durandal adds the missing parts to knockout and Sammy to make it compete in this field. If you add the "durandal" search term to the knockout chart line, it climbs above ember, deservedly.

<comment><USER4> I basically wrote a custom "durandal" to plug the missing infrastructure gap, however I must investigate durandal itself, i am sure it will add a little more sugar than my effort.

Basically I built a dal access layer based on promises for delegating to from my viewmodels. I also built a view transition manager into my app shell also, part of my core SPA framework.

I also added a bespoke option piece for hydrating routes. I have this api for my SPA called /public/routing and user/{id}/routing which returns the json config for API's for either anonymous or authenticated users. it is key on the Sammy Hash intercepts and provides me with the glue, i.e. what external view template should I transition too, what view Model should I load for this, also what API and Verbs are supported for the users role! its great, because my site admin can added routes on the fly, and its totally modular from a dev point of view, so if a new route can not be found, I just load the Empty View Template Placeholder (in development environment of course ).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6>
      Compare to category

Makes everything normalised to the searches related to the category "Computers and Electronics".

<comment><USER7> Interesting when putting in programming languages and checking Compare to category

[http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=scala,...](http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=scala,+java,+ruby,+python,+clojure&cmpt=q)

Then go and check by city instead of region

I find it overwhelmingly eye opening

<comment><AUTHOR> Very interesting. Clojure seems to be extremely popular.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Yeeeeaaah, this doesn't really indicate much of anything. All it reflects is number of searches for a specific term or combination of terms. Why do people do Google searches? They're looking for something or they're curious about something. One way to read the results is that Angular is difficult to learn-- thus all the searches (for help, tutorials, documentation, etc.). Plus, if you add or subtract minor details like "js" or categories you get totally different results. And Backbone doesn't look remotely right. Relying on these trend graphs for anything is laughable at best. They're not even that interesting because they could literally mean anything depending on the framework. Some frameworks might incite a lot of curiousity but but easy to learn with great documentation (that reduces the need to Google for relevant material); Other frameworks might be difficult to use, difficult to learn, and have poor documentation...and thus require lots of Google usage.

Google Trends graphs without substantial analysis are just noise.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> It is interesting that ExtJs is so much searched for than any other of the most popular frameworks. Specially since you don't hear much about ExtJs lately. AngulaJs though is getting close.

<comment><USER9> I hear a lot about ExtJs actually. I've been using their framework for complex Javascript systems for a while now and it keeps getting better and better. I can see they invest a lot of resources in it. Its not popular with the 'gimme it for free' crowd though. I agree its not for everyone though its a commercial project (albeit free with GPL licence for open source projects), but then again you do get what you pay for here - nothing else that I've seen so far (and I've seen a lot) even comes close in terms of polish. Another common extjs deterrent is that its a complete framework with all batteries included, and requires an investment in a new mindset as far as how to develop single page browser apps. I found it more similar to Java Swing apps or other Desktop tool kits than any other JavaScript framework.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I agree. I use extjs for our product (iKnode), but lately we have been moving towards AngularJs.

But I agree, extjs needs a considerable amount of investment in time and mindshare, because of the way it is built. I actually like it very much. Hey I built my product based on it.

But lately I have seen extjs as old, and in need of love. AngularJs for example is easily lovable and easy to learn.

<comment><USER10> I felt that ExtJS4s MVC concept was easier to grasp than Angular. But I had to replace parts of it with DeftJS to get it to do what I wanted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> JS frameworks are such a funny thing.

I never knew that Ext was as popular as the trend graphs suggest. Then reading through the comments there seem to be a number of people using them and enjoy using them (of course there are people on the other side, commenting against it).

Posts about JS frameworks on HB appear quite frequent and each time there is a healthy does of people saying that they LOVE it and then another group saying they don't like it.

Though some tools receives lots of hype, it just goes to show that there is no one solution here. At the very high level, all the frameworks are trying to achieve the same thing.

Ask the end-user if they are what frameworks are used - of course they don't! There's definitely more than one way to skin the cat.

I've tried a number of frameworks purely out of the hype and though learning them is useful, I think it makes sense to pick the right tool for you and not worry too much about what other people are doing.

</comment><comment><USER12> I wonder how they compare to Meteor and Derby, but they usually aren't called Derby.js or Meteor.js.

</comment><comment><USER13> It's exciting to see AngularJS's growth. I think there is a lot of hopefully merited hype out there for Angular as "the one we have been waiting for".

My company has been transitioning away from Flex, and first we tried ExtJS. It worked well as a good direct translation from Flex, but none of us were fans of the heavily generated HTML. It felt to me very much like a plugin, built for dumping thick-app designs into a web framework. Our designers hated it.

AngularJS seems to give the best of both worlds, freeing designers to write pure HTML, while allowing developers to work at a level of abstraction away from the DOM.

</comment><comment><USER14> [fixed] [http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5&q=angular.j...](http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5&q=angular.js%20%2B%20angularjs%20%2B%20%22angular%20js%22%2C%20ext.js%20%2B%20%20extjs%2B%20%22ext%20js%22%2C%20backbone.js%20%2B%20%20backbonejs%20%2B%20%22backbone%20js%22%2C%20jquery.js%20%2B%20emberjs%20%2B%20%22jquery%22%2C%20knockout.js%20%2B%20knockoutjs%20%2B%20%22knockout%20js%22&cmpt=q)

</comment><comment><USER15> A slightly different view - removed 'js', limit to 'programming' category and in the last 12 month.

Then trend with Angular is quite amazing. [http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=knocko...](http://www.google.com/trends/explore#cat=0-5-31&q=knockout%2C%20angular%2C%20ember%2C%20backbone&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q)

</comment><comment><USER16> Leading sourcesof queries for these frameworks

Embers: USA

Angularjs: India

Extjs: Cuba, china and then India

Knockoutjs: India

Backbonejs: India

My hypothesis is that this graphs shows what people want to learn, perhaps not what they are using. Although, Cuba just looks out of place.

</comment><comment><USER17> I often search on "backbone" - docs are the first result. Same with "angular" and "ember".

</comment><comment><USER18> Any idea why most of the world is completely blank on that map? Is there really nearly-zero javascript work done in South America, or do they just use a different search engine?

<comment><USER19> extjs seems to be very popular on Cuba compared to the rest of the world. huh?

if these graphs were about to mean anything or be relevant, it could possibly that the rest of the world is not that keen on instantly jumping into the next hot technology of the day. usually it takes time until the silicon valley hotness gets abroad. not judging, just sayin'.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Side note: Try "javascript" vs "jquery". It seems they're equal now and soon probably the latter will be searched more.

<comment><USER21> Hopefully not. Knowing jQuery is no substitute for knowing Javascript, and you can see this problem with many developers who ask "How can I do x in jQuery" when all they need is JS. Bigger frameworks may hinder this development, because to use them, you need a better grasp of JS than for jquery. But I am already seeing "how can I do x in angular", so this may just be wishful thinking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> of course this could be an indicator of non-obvious documentation that forces you to constantly google "angularjs how in hell's name do I ..."

</comment><comment><USER23> Why was jQuery left out?

</comment><comment><USER24> remove one of the terms and throw in jquery.js + jquery it pretty much squashes every other search term</comment>


The Pmarca Guide to Startups, part 4: The only thing that matters - <AUTHOR> http://web.archive.org/web/20070701074943/http://blog.pmarca.com/2007/06/the-pmarca-gu-2.html

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought this would be interesting since it provides a different perspective on what is important in a startup. Currently, the dogma is the team is the most important, but this post present an argument for the market.</comment>


The Japanese Man Who Saved 6,000 Jews with His Handwriting - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/opinion/sugihara-moral-heroism-refugees.html <comment><USER2> Like Shindler's story, in these times of cynism and selfishness, these stories make me a little at peace with humanity.

Even with all the flaws that these men had, they did something extraordinary good.

<comment><USER3> A great majority of people would never do this, fearing for personal safety or personal well-being-- and that's okay, that makes sense to me. But the few who risk themselves in this way are more than you think, it's just that we don't hear of them because the true heroes don't consider themselves heroes. Also keep in mind that most people sacrifice themselves daily in order to keep their loved ones happy in small ways, and that's just as inspiring.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Not in the article: there is a statue memorializing him in Los Angeles's Little Tokyo.

Statue "Chiune Sugihara" 192 S Central Ave, Los Angeles, CA 90012, USA [https://maps.google.com/?cid=6956489423621816135](https://maps.google.com/?cid=6956489423621816135)</comment>


Show HN: Web News Bot, text mining the news - <AUTHOR> http://www.webnewsbot.com

<comment><AUTHOR> I made this site to analyze and compare the readability of popular news sites. Every two hours, it scrapes articles from the RSS feeds of eight news sites with high circulation. I'm working on adding a few more sites into the mix.

It's all Perl, with Mojolicious, DBIx::Class, and PostgreSQL. I also wrote a CPAN module (Lingua::EN::Clarity) specifically for use in tandem with this project.

So far, it only calculates the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level, but I'm building some more advanced functionality. I haven't written too many tests for it, so it's hardly secure or optimized, but I'm hoping to have it reasonably solid by the weekend.</comment>


Becoming a contractor programmer in the UK - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/tadast/switching-to-contracting-uk/tree/formationsfactory <comment><USER3>
        > You should have savings to cover at least 4 months of
        > your usual expenses. You will spend some money
        > establishing a company. It may take several weeks to
        > find your first contract.

If you wanted to be extra safe, sure. I made the switch when I was heavily in debt, and it helped me get out of debt, so YMMV.

        > A service like www.formationsfactory.co.uk will make the
        > incorporation process easy.

Actually it's super easy online using the UK government sites now. I set up a company (again) about ~14 months ago, and it took about an hour of filling in .gov.uk forms online. I would recommend just doing it yourself.

Setting up a bank account is pretty easy too, and I'm not sure why you'd use a third party for it. 15 minutes of filling out HSBC forms did it for me.

        > Finding your first client might be hard.

Sure. Most permanent jobs have a 4 week notice period, and you can find contractor roles happy for you to start in 4 weeks. Line one up before you quit, and there's no 2-3 week mad rushing around trying to find a contract.

If you're just getting in to it, start with a recruiter. They'll eat in to your contract rate, for sure, but they'll also have a far better visibility of the market than you, they'll get better feedback from clients than you, and they'll help chase your invoices and so on. I worked as a contractor for a long time and never had a bad experience with a recruiter, where the OP seems to have had a dreadful time...

        > rates

Go look on jobsite. For Central London, a developer should be asking for £300-£600/pd depending on seniority and what they're doing.

        > IR35

In addition to IR35, they're about to massively change how dividend tax works. You might be better off looking at an umbrella company like Giant, who'll save you a lot of accounting hassles...

<comment><USER4> _> Most permanent jobs have a 4 week notice period_

Really? In experienced level dev jobs? Most of the people I know are on two months notice. Three months, which is what I'm tied to, doesn't seem uncommon for senior devs/DBAs/similar.

<comment> tom-lord It's also worth noting that (at least in the UK) such notice periods are not legally binding.

You can only be forced to give a notice period up to your payroll pay frequency. So for example, if you get paid monthly then you cannot be sued for failing to give > 1 month's notice!

... But of course, most people will still honour their company's "3 month notice" (or whatever) period out of good faith, as it's generally a good idea not to burn bridges.

<comment><USER5> Are you sure about that? There is a statutory notice period of one or two weeks depending on how long your employment has been, but this appears to be trumped by contractual agreements:

[https://www.gov.uk/handing-in-your-notice-resigning- leaving-...](https://www.gov.uk/handing-in-your-notice-resigning-leaving-job)

<comment><USER4> The statuary period sets the _minimum_ that an employee and an employer must give. Unless otherwise agreed this is the only value to care about. A longer notice period can be arranged via contract. A shorter period can not be agreed (well it can, anything can be agreed really, but it will not be legally enforceable).

IIRC the statutory rules are as follows:

* After one month of employment the minimum period is one week

* After two year's of employment the minimum period becomes two weeks

* Each year after the first two one further week is added, up to a maximum of twelve (so because of how long I've been here the three months dictated by my current contract is pretty much aligned with the statutory minimum notice period).

While there is some room for ignoring a contract with unfair terms, unless the notice requirements set out in what you have signed are rather egregious you will be expected to honour them unless you successfully negotiate otherwise at the time. People can and sometimes do ignore this though because the costs and time involved in taking you to court for breach of contract are high enough that it just isn't worthwhile to most employers, but this is a risky stance to take as you could create a reputation for yourself that travels around your industry fairly quickly and may stick around for some time (and, of course, such action is morally wrong: if you signed a reasonable contract in good faith you should stick to it just as you would expect the other party to). If your contract (that part or all of it) can be declared void because it is not enforceable (you can't sign away the statutory minimum) this becomes moot. It can also become a moot point due to some other significant breach by either party then (well by the letter of the law it doesn't, but "you could take me to court but you don't really want the whole truth being a matter of public record do you?" can be a powerful argument in dissuading the other party from taking action).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> As others have noted, the 4 months of living expenses requirement can be quite excessive. I've seen similar advice in the past and can't help but recall my personal anecdote of starting a company with barely enough money for one month of expenses. What is far more vital to one's success as a solo contractor is not having savings, but having guaranteed future revenue generation – clients with signed contracts.

As the author notes, the legal business entity and business infrastructure should be set up in advance. This enables one to acquire clients and do business before putting in a two-week notice at your full time job. I no longer operate my company, but had I abided by the 4 month of living expenses rule I would have never gotten off the ground. Within 4 months I was earning slightly more than double my previous salary. Don't shackle yourself to rigid startup rules. If you have clients and believe in what you're offering, go do it.

<comment><USER7> Generally a client can end your contract pretty much at any time without recourse. If you're client doesn't have mutability of obligation clause, that allows this irregardless of notice period, you probably fall under ir35.

So this advice is based on that, but obviously if you're good and marketable, you'll probably be OK. I myself really became a contractor after a relationship breakup when I was in about over £3000 O/D, a mortgage to pay and about £4300 credit limit.

Discussed this with agent, they agreed to pay me the day they were paid and I drove 400 miles for a contract which wasn't actually signed by the client yet. Luckily, they were happy to see me on the Monday, and I got paid at about £4200 into that limit.

This was 2 years ago. Now I probably earn 5+ times my highest perm salary, so in my case the gamble was super worth it, but if you're not somewhat charismatic and decent at your job with a marketable skill, it could go the other way.

<comment><USER6> Agreed.

To shed some more light on my strategy:

* I planned to exit the company months in advance.

* Signed two clients

* I was a director of a small development team. I architected much of the company's critical infrastructure (most importantly, credit card/payment processing) and knew that I could leverage my knowledge to negotiate an advisory contract.

* Put in my notice

* Signed ex employer as my third client with _weekly_ payment and a two month minimum. They obviously could have broken the minimum agreement, but kept me on until I severed the contract several months later. Weekly payment was key.

A little strategy can go a long way, but obviously it could have turned out much differently for me. And as noted, this is purely anecdotal. While four months buffer is generally wise, it is not de facto necessary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Contrary to the advice, you do not need an accountant, especially if you are able to ignore another part of the advice and not register for VAT (if your turnover is below the registration threshold of £82,000) which simplifies the accounting greatly. Your duties are then mainly as follows:

Use HMRC PAYE Tools to report each salary payment you make, and pay any National Insurance if applicable (which it won't be if you keep you salary below £671 a month).

Use the same tool to report any expense payments each May (form P11D).

Use Companies House WebFiling to submit your annual return (a short submission confirming some details about your company's directors and shareholdings etc.) each company year end.

Use HRMC's Online services to submit your corporation tax and accounts nine months after each year end. I pay £45 each year for collection of Excel templates from [http://www.diyaccounting.co.uk/](http://www.diyaccounting.co.uk/) to record my accounts which produces a mockup of the HMRC web form with the fields filled in.

Pay yourself a dividend one or twice a year and find a Word template to print out a record of the payment and the board meeting you had to decide on it.

Finally, use HMRC Online Self Assessment to submit your personal tax return each January, which you may already be doing anyway.

Looking at all this now it seems like a lot, but it's not as bad it sounds. I suppose you've got to have something of an interest in learning how a business is run to justify it. On the other hand you can save your company a tidy sum, plus as a company director you're legally responsible for the accuracy of the various submissions anyway, whether an accountant does it all for you or not, so you may as well have a sound understanding of it all I say. Also, I don't know whether this is the really the case or not but I've a theory that the more you run your operation like a proper business the less likely you're going to come a cropper of an IR45 disguised employment judgement, which could be severely financially damaging.

Running your own operation like this will put you in a better position for trying out any side projects I believe, and of course it will all stand you in good stead when you finally hit on the world changing idea you've been waiting for and your one man band blossoms into a large corporation (although do then get some accountants - but at least you'll have some idea what they're up to).

<comment><USER9> Even VAT is fairly straightforward if you sign up for the VAT Flat Rate Scheme (assuming you're eligible). You'd probably need to pay for something like FreeAgent to help you with your VAT filings, but amount of money the Flat Rate Scheme would save you would easily pay for the cost of the bookkeeping application.

<comment><USER10> +1 for Freeagent. We've been using it for 6 years now and still love it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The old discussion is now closed.

You should be aware that there is no obligation for limited companies to have a business bank account. However, it is usually a good idea to have one.

Furthermore, you don't need to be a UK resident to open a business bank account but most banks will not deal with you due to higher costs and fraud concerns.

P.S. your company does not require a UK-based bank account. You can open a business bank account in your country in the name of your LTD company in the UK. You will need to have your company documents (Certificate of Incorporation and Memorandum & Articles of Association) apostilled.

<comment><USER12> Very true.

Also the advice about marketing yourself is crap. Recruiters are the #1 way of landing contracts. They're finders and you're paying a finders fee for that service. They have the big guys with oodles of cash to get hold of.

If you can't get a gig through a recruiter then you either don't have skills that are in demand or don't come across as someone who they'd want to sell.

If you don't go through the recruiters, you end up being left with the cheap arse companies that won't pay up anyway. If you're sneaky about it, you and the recruiter can get the client to pay the finder's fee.

Once you're in the system, build up a network of contacts and then move through that rather than using the recruiters. I'm doing that at the moment and ended up taking a perm position that was better paid than the contract rates were (without all the hassle of IR35, rolling a Ltd etc)

<comment><USER13> > If you don't go through the recruiters, you end up being left with the cheap > arse companies that won't pay up anyway.

I've never used a recruiter, the companies I work for paid pretty good and I had _one_ unpaid bill in a couple of decades.

Building your own network and getting rid of recruiters as your main source of income is very important to new contract programmers.

For one they take a cut and for another they will sell those parties where they can take the largest cut first.

I'm not saying they don't have a function but recruiters goals and the recruited goals are not 100% aligned and you should be very much aware of that when using one.

One way to side-step recruiters is to build up (large) number of contacts with people in the industry who may get to know someone that needs your particular skillset.

The more peculiar your skills the harder it will be for recruiters to place you and so more of the acquisition part will have to be done by yourself.

Think of using recruiters as 'outsourcing acquisition', it has all the upsides _and_ the downsides associated with all other forms of outsourcing.

Another danger with outsourcing your acquisition to recruiters is that you are handing the keys to one of the most important parts of your business to another party, who can then either cut you off at will, replace you and retain their contact with the company you were placed in and so on.

The sales department (which you've essentially outsourced) is a _very_ important (if not the most important) element in any company, even a small one.

You may be able to make your life a little easier by not doing that work, especially if you're an introvert but in the longer term you're setting yourself up in a very dangerous position.

So, use recruiters if you have to but be wary and make sure you have alternative channels to being hired under your own control. Never let a single recruiter get you all of your jobs or even a majority of your jobs.

<comment><USER12> You're right on all the points there.

I did find that you can play recruiters off against each other quite easily to negotiate a higher rate. Also when you sign, you sign with the company not the recruiter and have a solid contract in place. Never work for sharecropper recruiters like some of the bigger ones.

If they want to get rid of you after 2 weeks, make sure there's an exit fee. That is usually 100% for me if under 6 months of contract left. I did 2 weeks at a company on a 3 monther at £550 a day and completed the work but was paid for the 3 months.

The particular sector I worked in was finance and that is still heavily recruiter driven unfortunately.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The previous discussion - [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9726182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9726182) \- should be read alongside this page. It had a number of glaring errors, including some very bad advice about tax.

</comment><comment><USER15> Great article, very thoughtful.

But my biggest question is _where_ do you find a client ?

Is there a website (like a jobs website) for contract work, besides elance and the like ? Yeah, I can google it, but it's usually just a waste of time.

Is there any serious place where an experienced developer can meet serious clients ? I mean clients willing to pay for quality work so I can make a living similar to a corporate job ?

<comment><USER16> As a very young programmer looking to make some money along his studies in the UK, I want to know where I can find clients, or even start a portfolio that's more than a few open source projects on GitHub.

<comment><USER17> I posted an offer to HN to build their app for £100. Monetary value is obviously very little, but it's a token gesture that technically gives you freelance experience.

It was great to build my portfolio up; I'd recommend it if possible. It's much easier to land gigs with a freelance portfolio.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6382405](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6382405)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9726182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9726182)

</comment><comment><USER13> I wrote a whole series of pages on this subject condensing the last 30 years or so:

[http://jacquesmattheij.com/be-consultant/](http://jacquesmattheij.com/be- consultant/)

The idea was to one day bind this all together and make it a book.

<comment><USER3> Contracting in a UK sense is really very different from consulting or freelancing. It's essentially just a 9-5 short-term job, usually on-site, with more money and some extra accountancy perks.

<comment><USER13> I see more things in common than differences between those and I know people in the UK that use contract work to supplement their income when their consulting/freelancing gigs are not plentiful enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> One important thing to note is that your accountant gets a kickback from setting up a bank account. You should instead aim to search for the best bank account you can find with the best deal and the faster payments service; my bank account with Cater Allen still does not support this for example.

I'd also highly highly recommend freeagent which is so good it makes you wonder what your accountant does. It has been right where my accountant has often been wrong!! Here's a referral link:

[http://fre.ag/34atijdc](http://fre.ag/34atijdc)

<comment><USER20> Freeagent looks interesting. What's their customer support like? My accountant is about 90 GBP per month but I get extremely prompt responses from them on technical issues so I'm inclined to think they're worth it.

<comment><USER19> Freeagent have always responded pretty immediately but it's best to get an accountant [1] that supports Freeagent and you are then effectively paying for support. They use Get Satisfaction which is community and vendor run support [2].

It makes the accountants life a lot easier too (they get a slightly restricted login).

[1] [http://www.freeagent.com/find-an- accountant](http://www.freeagent.com/find-an-accountant)

[2] [http://community.freeagent.com/freeagent](http://community.freeagent.com/freeagent)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> (my background is freelancing on sites like odesk.com and elance.com)

Could someone explain what kind of contracting work is talked about here? With examples of products, type of work, technologies, etc?

How much of it applicable to US?

</comment><comment><USER22> Excellent article. I was a contractor in the UK for ten years and this hits all the most important points. Thanks for posting.

Once you have a 6m+ contract under your belt, look at recruiters again. As distasteful as they are (and they are), 90%+ of the most valuable contracts go through them. I would love for these parasitic fucks to be disintermediated, but if that was going to happen it would have happened by now, so live with it.

Your problem with recruiters is that you are having 'friendly conversations' with them. This identifies you as a mark whom the recruiter can place into a £400/day contact and pay you £200. This happens ALL THE TIME and is the bread and butter of many recruiters.

The thing to remember about recruiters is that they have no clue about the industry they're recruiting for. If they did, they would be working in it, not recruiting for it. So, the only real clue they have of how good you are is how good you SAY you are.

So do not be friendly to recruiters - treat them was what they are - <USER2> middlemen who need you. As you say, not signing anything with them is good. Another good strategy is to contemptuously dismiss the first contract a recruiter mentions. "This small-time crap? Sorry, I though you guys were top- drawer."

Recruitment is HELLISHLY competitive and the churn is savage. Recruiters are sharks, and they think like sharks. But they NEED you. They will absolutely fight over you if they think you are worth fighting over.

Don't bother until you have a contract under your belt. But once you have, start treating recruiters badly and see what happens. :)

</comment><comment><USER23> This is the easy bit. Finding quality, well paid work, that's the hard bit. It renders all the rest of it a bit irrelevant.

<comment><USER3> My experience (and that of many coworkers I've had) - unless you've really pissed in the pool, there is an unending supply of good contracts in London.

<comment><USER24> Anyone know what the market's like for embedded s/w development these days? ~ 15 years ago (ouch) recall we were using a lot of contractors for protracted periods & had to keep them sweet for fear they might just skip off to another job.

Didn't make the transition then. Always wondered ..

<comment><USER25> Embedded contracting in the UK is dead atm. I found that in the field, most contract vacancies from agents are fake. As for the few hw startups, they're mostly unfunded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Despite me not generally being a fan of agencies, they do have there advantages. So long as they're reputable, one big advantage which not many people take into account is that a good one is giving you free invoice factoring and debt collection. This means you would normally get paid on-time even if the client hasn't paid the invoice yet. This is a pretty major thing for those starting out, particularly if you are touting for small clients, who may run into cash flow issues, or very large clients who mostly take forever to pay invoices.

Chasing clients for money is, particularly when starting out, something that you feel hesitant to do in case you adversely affect your relationship with the client, as you don't think you have much leverage and are risking a good contract. It's a confidence thing though, these days I'd have no problem putting my foot down and walking away from a non-paying customer's contract.

Of course, all you're really doing is moving the risk of non-payment on to the agency but, so far having worked with about 8 agencies, I've not had any trouble being paid on-time in 12 years. Working directly I've run into non- payment issues several times with non-payment periods upto almost a year (though I'd long moved on to another contract). But then I've got a friend who's been ripped-off by a recruitment agency, having folded with a couple of months pay due. So you do still need to chase them too and ensure you maintain an adequate pot of savings for breaks between contracts and covering non- payment issues.

Having been in the position of working directly for clients and being owed large amounts of money for long periods of time, I'd recommend finding a reputable (sic) recruitment agent until you are up and running for a good few months or even a couple of years. That all said, you do have to put up with the barrage of appalling sales pitches for unsuitable positions and a lack of technical knowledge while dealing with most of them.

</comment><comment><USER27> Is there an Australian version of this somewhere?

I wish people would replicate this for as many countries as possible.

<comment><USER28> The IR35 related laws in the UK make independent contracting much easier and therefore more common there than in Australia. As I understand it, many UK contractors would be considered employees under Australian law.

Having run my business in Australia and then the UK, I asked the founder of Crunch in the UK (Accounting support for contractors) if he planned to expand to Australia because I loved their service. While open to it at some point, iirc he said there just wasn't the volume of potential clients down under to justify the legislation and recruitment investment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Pretty good and brief summary about UK specific details, thanks for sharing :)

</comment><comment><USER30> Adding my two cents. I have been a contractor for almost 3 years now. My personal opinion:

\- Contracting pays a lot more than a perm role.

\- You do not deal with politics, which is a major plus for me.

\- You do not hear about you not getting your promised y% bonus because company did not do x% business.

\- You are not worried about 'changing the world', the way you would in a startup.

\- working 4-6 years your asses off at a startup may be equivalent to working as a contractor for that time. That is a big may be, your skills, confidence, market everything plays a big role.

\- Always get a good accountant, go for ltd company, enroll your wife and PAY YOUR TAXES!

\- I started when i had about a month's savings, and it worked out well.

\- Day rates depend on your skill set. 350 is the minimum i guess for any role, max is your imagination! 800? 1000? but getting 500-550 should be the target at least.

\- Getting a contract is tricky: use linkedin, recruiters, friends and whatever else. All are necessary. I would not worry too much about a recruiter getting a cut as long as i get what i had asked for.

\- Get a contract before quitting your perm role. Mostly companies looking for a contractor wait for 2 weeks, if you are good and your skills are in demand they would wait for 3-4 weeks.

\- Always plan your vacation at times when everyone else is on holiday. December/January and April are good times.

\- HMRC website is good enough to register a company, 15 pounds and 20-30 mins.

\- Getting 450 a day is always better than siting idle waiting for that 550-600 a day contract.

\- There is lot of competition, be prepared for that.

\- Prepared for some level of stress (specially when you are out of work), it is still worth it.

\- Do not worry too much about your utilization in a contract, it is the client's worry. You are paid for your skills and not your time. Do put reasonable time, but that is not the criteria you were hired with.

\- 'Doing/Completing my time' is a BS. I have had several contracts and none of the clients ever had problems with my timings. And i am particularly bad at working normal hours. Sometimes i get at work at 10 and leave at 5. At times i work whole nights.

\- Recruiters are lairs, don't give too much info. Ask for a job spec and day rate before giving any info. I would help you, after you get me a contract!

\- Send your CV to all who asks for it. Keeps you in the market.

\- You will not necessarily get a higher day rate if you went directly with a client. Your day rate depends on your skills and negotiating skills only. If you do not ask for a good day rate, chances are, you wont get it.

\- Sometimes, leave it on Luck. We can be the smartest asses on the planet, but at times need luck.

Hope this helps.

<comment><USER31> Good list. I would also add:

\- don't trust agents \- don't trust agents One more thing: \- don't trust agents

If you find a half-honest one work with them as much as you can. They'll still try and screw you over but they might decide to be straight once in a while.

I don't blame them in a way - the competition is fierce and matching client and contractor for happy outcomes is hard. But too many of them are willing to try and renegotiate your rate down after an offer is made - 'they like you, but not at your original rate' \- 99/100 this is a ruse to keep some pounds in their pocket. Learn to be firm with agents.

Find out who makes the decisions on hiring and who has budget within a company and get to know them personally. They're the ones signing your pay.

I contracted for nearly 10 years in a variety of places. It's a great life but you do have to keep an eye on your career as your skill set might start to get old, and it's hard to move onto the next thing because you don't get the chance to practice it. But I have friends who have been doing it for 20 years now, and they have made a great life out of it.

<comment><USER32> I always used agents over 3.5 years and never had any problems.

They are sales people though, and obviously there are bad ones. However they are providing a service to you, (and their client), often contractors that go direct are on a worse rate, get paid a lot less frequently (3 months after each month, vs weekly in some cases) and have to deal with tedious internal HR processes.

Some times after you get used to the industry you have enough contacts to go direct, but initially an agent can really help you out.

<comment><USER31> Yes, use them by all means - it's very difficult to get started unless you do. But don't trust them. Don't take their word for anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> What are the benefits of incorporating an Ltd vs being a sole trader?

<comment><USER3> There are significant tax savings, and theoretically limited liability. The significant tax savings will change next tax year with changes in dividend taxes and NIC contributions. No-one is really sure of the actual impact at this point.

<comment><USER34> 7.5% on your dividends. About 3k a year for a 100k earner... Nothing to go permie about.

<comment><USER3> I had thought the jury was still out on this - I do hope it ends up being only that amount though.

<comment><USER26> The rates for dividend payments are set but because of the triple changes of the budget - dividends, employment allowance and travel/subsistence expenses, it could affect some contractors a lot worse than others. Though it's mostly those who rack up large commuting/accommodation expenses chasing high paid work in London while not living anywhere near there. The travel/subsistence rules haven't been set yet but it's likely HMRC will crack down on them quite hard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I moved from web dev perm jobs in the west mids, down to London and started contracting around 6 years ago. It's singlehandedly the best decision I ever made, tripling my salary. And bar a few of months after I went to Asia for a year (paid for by contracting), I've never had much trouble landing a new contract.

You can easily earn over 100k if you're any good in your field.

I was thinking about writing a post about the ins and outs of the London contract market.

</comment><comment><USER33> Compared to full-time positions of equivalent scope, what skill level and experience is needed to work as a contractor? How do the working conditions differ?

<comment><USER31> In my experience, sometimes they wanted more skill and experience for a permanent role than they did for a contractor. I worked as a contractor and had to fill headcount, and the process was different for a contractor and a permanent. Contractors are much simpler to get rid of if they don't turn out, so hiring decisions were made faster. Permanent people being hired had to be of a higher standard.

This doesn't mean that you can get away with being a junior in a senior role, but it might mean there is more of a focus on technical skills rather than university qualifications, that type of thing.

There are some crap contractors floating about the system and some crap permanent employees. And vice versa.

The working conditions are almost identical, except that in a downturn the contractors will be first out the door. They also get to avoid 'company building' meetings and crap like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> There are legal firms in the city who will review your contract for IR35 compliance. If you don't know what you're looking for I highly recommend using them. Do not be afraid of amending a contract and pushing back on the client.

Being IR35 compliant is one of the biggest benefits of being a contractor(at least that was true before they changed the dividends rule), so it's important to get this right.

</comment><comment><USER37> "Am I ready?"

Are you a programmer? Yes? You are ready.

Seriously in the current market you don't need to be a very confident programmer to be contractor in the UK. Quit your stressful jobs and get into contracting NOW. Money is 3x better. Hours are better, employers are more flexible with contractors believe it or not. And when shit hits fans, just bail and go find another contract.

<comment><USER38> Easier said than done and a bit short-sighted. I would argue that over the long run, the stress of having to track down and find new projects while maintaining a steady stream of income produces much higher stress levels than a 9-5 job. Some people can deal with that, others not so much. You will also have periods where you are flush with cash and periods where you may go months on end without income. Again, some people can handle this, others not so much. Are your hours really better when you factor in all of the business administration and marketing of yourself that you will need to do? Probably not. So, are you really ready? That's a much deeper question and not so easily answered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> >> _You should have savings to cover at least 4 months of your usual expenses._

12, better 24 months for peace of mind.

>> _It may take several weeks to find your first contract._

More likely, several months. It depends on the match between your skills and market demand.

In general, most companies will not commission you directly. There's always a company between you and your end customer.

</comment><comment><USER40> Apologies for the ignorance.....As a barbaric American, Don't you still have to pay taxes if you are a US citizen unless you renounce it? Or does incorporation create a shelter (much like most US companies are doing)? Some relatives of mine took contracts in Canada and ended up having to pay triple taxes (two in Canada, one in USA)

<comment><USER41> Yes, that's true. Americans can be taxed for income earned outside the country.

I'm not an expert on this subject, but I don't think that income earned by an incorporation would be taxed if it's incorporated outside the United States. However, the incorporation would have to pay its employee, and that employee's income would be subject to taxation if the employee is a US citizen.

It's not quite as bad as it sounds though. The first $93000 of income earned abroad is not subject to taxation. Many countries (such as Canada and Germany) have reciprocal income tax treaties with the United States that keep citizens from being double-taxed. A US citizen in Germany, for example, wouldn't have to pay any US income tax on income earned in Germany as long as that income was subjected to German income taxes.

Other income such as stock dividends and capital gains is another matter. I'm not entirely certain if that is double taxed or not.

The IRS has a web page listing income tax treaties with various countries: [http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International- Businesses/Unite...](http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International- Businesses/United-States-Income-Tax-Treaties---A-to-Z)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I think regardless of the tax benefits discussed in this thread, even with an equal playing field you will earn significantly more than your permie peers.

You can get 50k if you're lucky in London, but you can earn 500 a day as a contractor.

500 * 230 conservative work days per year = 115,000 NET

<comment><USER42> 230 work days aren't "conservative", that's 4.5 days/week. Given the legal minimum of 28 days holiday per year for permanent employees (28 includes bank holidays, often you'll find vacation quoted as 20 days which doesn't include the bank holidays), that's close to 100% "found work" rate.

<comment><USER43> Ten weeks holiday and still earning over 100k contracting a year at £500 a day. Obviously not everyone has a contract all the time but from my friends that do contract they almost always are working (and they are outside the market hungry center that is London)

<comment><USER44> Speaking about holidays, what's the employers' attitude towards days off say on a 3 or 6 months contract? Can you take a week or two off during a 3 month contract or you are generally expected to work the full contract time?

<comment><USER45> You can take as much holiday as you want, between contracts. I know a few who regularly head off for 1-3 months at a time, between working.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> What's the situation in Dublin? From what i can see, just bunch of recruiters hiring for a few companies; any info which one is approachable directly? Im in .net

</comment><comment><USER47> wasn't this here only a few days ago already?

fwiw i've jumped into this sort of work before without any savings or backup plans... it was much more 'exciting'. XD

</comment><comment><USER48> Good info. Does anyone have info or experience in seting up your ltd company overseas together with an overseas bank account.

</comment><comment><USER49> Anybody have similar advice for the US?

</comment><comment><USER50> Can anybody rate the Headhunter family? They are aggressive and expensive. GB does'nt really suit as far as big companies are concerned because IBM experience is required which is lacking in GB Portfolios. Good luck to the Indians - I think they have got it right excluding German language.

</comment><comment> enjoy-your-stay Don't forget to setup a pension and pay into it regularly.

<comment><USER51> This is a good advice. Any links/advice where to start looking?

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Crunch are aces.

<comment><USER53> I've found their webapp to be pretty good, but trying to get actual financial advice was a struggle since you have to go through your account manager rather than talk directly to a real accountant.

<comment><USER7> I use Maslins who provide freeagent. They respond emails within the hour usually.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> What does everyone do with the cash in their ltd company? My acct advises leaving the cash in the company but HMRC seem arsey about investing directly rather than moving it into an ISA which obviously then incurs an income tax hit.

<comment><USER55> Generally you would start a Business Account, Barclays are good. You then pay yourself from your company but at a much lower rate than your company gets paid say an annual salary of £10,000. This will cause money to build up in your company account which you pay to yourself as dividends which are more tax efficient to get your money out. This is why most contractor use an accountant to manage the payroll etc</comment></comment>