Light Table Is On Kickstarter - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/light-table

<comment><AUTHOR> Just added this update:

EDIT: Also, these changes will take effect for everyone who has already pledged at these levels. Though if you could, please switch - if the old ones have 0 pledges I can delete them.

Unfortunately I can't change the pricing structure in place, but based on the feedback we've gotten so far I've added a set of new rewards - all of which are better than their previous ones. :)

$15 - A license and acknowledgement on the contributor list

$50 - A license and early beta access

$100 - A license, early beta access, and participation in feedback rounds

$200 - Two licenses, pre-beta access, and participation in feedback rounds

All the higher rewards will also of course include participation in the feedback rounds. Ultimately, this should address people's concerns of buying something before it exists, but providing the opportunity to be a part of it at a lower price point.

<comment><USER2> Awesome, you sir have just gotten a new pledge! I am much more confident knowing that you'll listen to feedback.

<comment><USER3> Just a thought that popped into my head. Assuming that the product issued in the end is going to be the same for everybody. And assume that the highest contributor that gets to put in the feedback generally improves the software. This creates a free loading problem for those who contributed less (myself included) for the same product. Even if it's a positive externality for the general backers, I wonder if there is a way for Kickstarter to properly compensate for such externality.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the kickstarter page could be improved.

More details about the money and why you need it, what our donation will accomplish aside from the vague message about how more people get things done faster. How much are you paying yourself? How many other people?

More information about the end product (people are asking about OS for example), the timeline, and you and your qualifications to run the project. I gather you have been programming for a long time and work at Microsoft, but that doesn't prove you'll be able to deliver. For all I know you're a famous hacker, but not knowing that, not knowing if I can use the end product or when I will get it, and not being given a simple, compelling argument (rather than a detailed description of the idea) makes me less interested in participating.

That said I love the idea and really hope you are successful!

<comment><AUTHOR> I just added this:

And why should we believe you can deliver?

I've been programming professionally for 8 years, during which I've built websites large and small (puma.com, newbalance.com, etc), helped design the future of Visual Studio, and released numerous open source libraries and frameworks. While at Microsoft I was the Program Manager for the C# and VB IDE where I spent countless hours behind a one way mirror learning how people develop things. Since then I've steeped myself in the world of startups and OSS. I worked with the guys at ReadyForZero to build readyforzero.com, created the Noir web framework, built the SQL abstraction layer Korma, and released a host of ClojureScript libraries to make client side development a breeze - many of which are now featured in the canonical books for Clojure. Even more recently, I built Bret Victor's live game editor after watching his inspiring "Inventing on Principle" talk. I have a history of building useful software and a hunger for making developers more efficient, as well as experience leading and shaping the the future of a billion dollar project.

<comment><USER5> FYI I personally found your experience on the MS Visual Studio team the most convincing credential, may I humbly suggest that you lead with that whenever possible.

PS. Good luck.

<comment><USER6> I agree, this makes me the most confident in the final product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I really want to back this but $100 is pretty steep for beta access. Even $50 is a little pricey for a tool that I like the goals of, but find it unlikely that I'll use it for a commercial product anytime soon. Any chance you could move around the reward tiers?

Maybe I'm just spoiled from spending $15-$20 on Kickstarter games and getting beta access, but as long as Light Table looks like an awesome toy instead of something I can build commercial software with it's hard to justify dropping $100 on it. That said I'll probably throw in $50.

<comment><USER8> For developer tools you use every day, I think $100 is a relatively small amount and in line with what a lot of text editors and IDEs charge for (and less than many of them).

<comment><USER9> For a real product, yes. For a product that doesn't exist yet, may turn to vaporware, may be buggy, may end up poorly designed, may be unusably slow, might not be able to operate as well as described, etc etc, $100 might seem a bit steep.

<comment><USER10> People spend $2 a day for coffee. Two movie tickets in NYC can cost $30, or more. I think $50 is pretty cheap. Even $100 is not that bad. If it saves you an hour a month, it has already paid for itself. The coffee, well, not really.

<comment><USER11> You say that, but would you forsake coffee for 50 days for an IDE?

<comment><USER10> It's only 25 days if you can wait until after the beta. :-)

It's only $100 so there's no need to forsake anything. I bought a personal license for IntelliJ IDEA, for example, and I upgrade to every new version. I believe in buying software that makes me more productive.

I find it kind of strange that people in the software business have such a hard time paying for software. I hope this doesn't rub off on the general population.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> So the product will be open source, but you need a license to download it? So its open source, but not "free". Are there any well known licenses that support this?

I take it that it also means that the license will not allow for you to copy / redistribute Light Table? Does it still really qualify as open source then?

Will they allow for contributors to the core of the product and if so, what rights do contributors need to sign away?

That said, I think its an awesome project!

<comment><USER13> In some ways it sounds like the Microsoft "Shared Source" where you are able to view the code for some of their commercial products for debugging purposes but not redistribute it.

One concern is they mention that it will make use of existing open source software; presumably they mean more BSD-style code or LGPL code rather than GPL code since the license they are proposing seems incompatible with the GPL.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The strength of his past contributions alone is enough to convince me to donate. You can't throw a football in Clojure land without hitting a high- quality contribution of his.

</comment><comment><USER15> Does anyone else find it awkward to back a project where the person running the project has never backed another project? I'm stoked about this project, It's just a feeling I've noticed consistently when looking at Kickstarter campaigns.

<comment><USER16> kickstarters are not the sole way people contribute to projects and communities. ibdknox has created some very popular (in the clojure community anyway) software (noir, korma etc) that a lot of people build on top of. Surely this should count for something.

<comment><USER15> Oh for sure, I was just curious about people and the platform. It's the only listed metric below a creators name, so if you didn't know who he was, it would be hard to verify. That being said, I've already donated to this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just added this to the description:

If we hit $300k, Python will be the third language to be supported out of the gate.

<comment><USER7> What would you have to raise to promise Lua support ;)? I imagine Ruby would come in at $400K-$500K.

<comment><USER17> +1 for Lua

I'd donate $500 right now if Lua support will be available in v1.

Edit: $500 (originally $100)

<comment> Tuna-Fish I rather doubt there will be that much point in that. Based on what he has spoken of the architecture, doing 3rd-party language support should be extraordinarily easy. Putting more languages into v1 will really only push it back -- the actual lua support should probably be done by someone with experience hacking lua.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm not upset that higher pledge tiers don't include the rewards of previous tiers. This is not always cost effective, especially when you factor in T-shirt production and whatnot. I do believe however that the higher levels should give more value to the backer, where value can be reasonable calculated. Specifically, I take issue with the higher of these two tiers:

> PLEDGE $1,000 OR MORE - 10 licenses of Light Table and acknowledgement as a > backer of the project.

> PLEDGE $5,000 OR MORE - 25 licenses of Light Table and acknowledgement as a > sponsor of the project.

How can a pledging 5x the amount of the previous tier give you only 2.5x the value?

<comment><USER19> Well, you get your logo on the home page for a year, which could be very good advertising if the project becomes big. However, I have no clue how much the advertising would actually be valued for a typical company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'd like to know what he plans to do with $200,000. Is he staffing up a company?

<comment><AUTHOR> It'll take more than just me. It'll be a team effort.

<comment><USER21> $200k feels like a pretty random number -- and maybe even a bit high. Draw people into your story and elaborate on where the $200k will go. What kind of a team are you going to put together? A team of 8? A team of 2? Water-front office space? Time share private helicopter?

This is the moment to really create momentum for the project -- if I were in your shoes, I'd spend a bunch of time today really refining the project details on Kickstarter. (Other successful Kickstarter projects might provide some great ideas.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Without disagreeing with the prevailing opinions on the reward rankings, may I observe that it's interesting how Kickstarter has transformed donations for innovation into a shopping cart experience?

So many folks in this thread, myself included, have adopted a stance of "I don't know if pledging this much is worth it!"

Well, we don't have to, right? We can just pledge $1 if we like it and want to help a bit.

Except we're talking about this product as though it is on sale and priced too high.

[edit]: Cleared up language.

<comment><USER23> _it's interesting how Kickstarter has transformed donations for innovation into a shopping cart experience_

I've been going back and forth about this, and I think the phrasing of the particular Kickstarter project controls whether it's more a donation or shopping cart experience. Think about the conversation like this:

\- "Hey, can you chip in some money so I can spend a bunch of time making a really cool piece of software?" \- "Sure, I'd love to! I can spare $25. When do I get to play with your build?" \- "Oh, $25 isn't enough for you to access the software. That's just a donation. But you can buy a copy when it comes out." \- "..."

If the pitch is "chip in what you can, and we'll make a cool thing for everyone," then you set the stage for donations for innovation. If the pitch is "pay enough, and we'll give you a license to our cool thing," then you're offering a shopping cart experience. Which is _fine_ , I use shopping carts all the time, but it's a different and less exciting thing.

This is maybe different with physical products -- if there's a cost per product, there obviously needs to be a minimum donation to get one. But with a virtual product, the reason you set a high donation threshold to get a copy is that you're selling a product rather than asking for a donation. Again, that's totally reasonable, but it's not as exciting to be part of.

As I keep thinking about it, I think there might be an uncanny valley effect here. If a software company I really like, like the Omni Group or Macromates, said they were doing presales of a revolutionary new product and needed me to buy in so it could get made, I would be psyched to do it. But this is halfway in between -- it's neither "donate to my cool project" nor "pre-order my cool product," but "donate to my cool product." I think that's where our gears start grinding a little.

I'm still up in the air about whether to donate to/purchase this one or not. Interesting stuff.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Clarification on the closed source plugins:

That bit of text was misleading, the plugins that would be closed source are not the ones that would result immediately from this project, but instead domain specific plugins that wouldn't have broad appeal. All the language plugins will be open.

<comment><USER24> I really think you should clarify the expected terms of the license.

I would gladly throw $50 to you if you released this under a MIT (or similar) license. Even if I never switch from vim, I feel my $50 would be well-spent bringing a (hopefully) awesome _free_ IDE into the world.

If this isn't actually free software but only open source, I still might purchase a license for myself, but I think it's fair that this is mentioned upfront.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I think the $50 mark to get a license is a little steep.

Besides that, the video quality on the Kickstart home page is quite bad; I tried to see what was going on so I put it in full-screen mode and couldn't read anything properly.

</comment><comment><USER26> I'll happily chip in some money, but having read recently about how Star Command's money burnt down ([http://www.1up.com/news/star-command-kickstarter- funding-qui...](http://www.1up.com/news/star-command-kickstarter-funding- quickly-disappear)) I suspect you might have shot yourself in the foot a bit by offering the t-shirts at such a cheap rate.

Either way, I've put some cash in the pot :).

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm confused about what Kickstarter will accept for software projects and which ones they won't. My latest project was rejected, but it was also a developer app. What is the guideline for what they will accept?

</comment><comment><USER28> I was hoping it'd be open sourced. On the other hand, maybe Chris will do amazing things if he has the ability to work full time on light table.

<comment><USER29> _ahem_

        Will it be open source?

        I'm a firm believer in open source software and open
        source technologies. I can guarantee you that Light Table
        will be built on top of the technologies that are freely
        available to us today. As such, I believe it only fair
        that the core of Light Table be open sourced once it is
        launched, while some of the plugins may remained closed
        source. At some level, this is an experiment in how open
        source and business can mix - it will be educational for
        us all.

<comment><USER30> Yes, but the rewards also mention a license, that will apparently be based on 'pay what you think it's worth'. It all seems very vague to me and I'm not sure how it all will work. Might just be me though.

<comment><USER31> This is what investing is like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I hate when pledges don't include the lower rewards. How can I get a t-shirt and a license?

<comment><USER33> A few recent vets have indicated the issues with having rollups of previous tiers

See [http://zefrank.tumblr.com/post/20122841731/kickstarter- post-...](http://zefrank.tumblr.com/post/20122841731/kickstarter-post-mortem)

"Be careful with waterfalling rewards (having each category include all previous ones) — We had t-shirts in too many tiers; and they ended up being one of the most expensive rewards"

<comment><AUTHOR> This was the thing I was worried about. Both in terms of the cost in time, shipping, and materials. That being said, if people really want t-shirts we'll find another, better way to make that happen :D

<comment><USER34> Doing tshirts seems like a simple way to raise cash or reward people, until you've done tshirts for the first time. Making sure you have a quality product, handling inventory and fulfillment, if you've never managed physical products before, it can be overwhelming, and I've seen that bite people in the ass.

I pre-sold tshirts to fund a music news website about ten years ago. I only sold about 35 shirts, but given that I was in school and working two part time jobs in addition to keeping my site going as a hobby, I found even fulfilling just those 35 shirts to be way more work than I really wanted, and I haven't bothered selling shirts since.

Although after everything was mailed off, I did make enough to cover hosting for pretty decent amount of time.

<comment><USER35> Of course, selling t-shirts for $30 should make a lot of that pain acceptable.

<comment><USER36> After subtracting the cost of the shirt, shipping, and your time, that leaves you with what, $10 each?

It's not terrible, but it's nowhere near as efficient as selling digital goods.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Should put something like "if we pass the X goal, then it will be truly _free_ , no licensing holding progress back".

Then I would be excited to donate :)

<comment><USER38> I don't mind paying for the software. If it ends up being as cool as it looks, I'll happily part with the cash.

But I would love the promise of open source and not open core. Especially since the current description is so vague.

"some of the plugins may remained [sic] closed source"

What kinds of plugins? Every supported language is a plugin -- will Python or Ruby end up closed? Or the inline HTML rendering?

If Chris promised a true commitment to keeping this open, I'd promise to pay up. With Kickstarter, I could even prove it.

How about a KS reward that would give me the access to all everything Light Table related that the team builds?

Also note that even GPL allows you to sell the software _and_ sell the code separately. Ditto for other licenses. I'd pay for the code. Not sure how viable that actually is, but it's something to consider.

Lastly, how's the development going to look like? Are the open source parts going to be done in the open (as most successful open source projects do) or will it be Android-like code dump on the release date?

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I might have overlooked it, but it doesn't seem to say which OS Light Table will run on?

I would back it up for Linux, for example, but a Windows version wouldn't be useful for me.

<comment><AUTHOR> It'll support windows/linux/mac

<comment><USER40> This is too much. I've never seen an editor that runs well on the 3 of them. If you had said Mac or just Linux, I could believe you. I am really interested, but I am afraid of this becoming vaporware.

<comment><USER26> Ignoring the usual "vim", "emacs" etc., do try Sublime Text 2, if all you're after is an editor. So far it's proved unfailingly excellent for me :).

FWIW Chris stated in a previous post that Lighttable would be built on embedding CodeMirror, which, being web-based, should make creating cross- platform builds much easier.

<comment><USER41> Hear, hear on ST2. I don't have to do anything more than let people see me use it before they switch.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Chris: Just wanted to say "Good luck!"

Also, I saw you mentioned a patched Clojure compiler for column information. Did you use my patch? :-) Let me know how I can help with Clojure and ClojureScript contributions. I find working on the compilers to be a lot of fun.

</comment><comment><USER30> I feel the part about it being open source is either misleading or your description is just really vague, even after the update. First you mention the core is open source, then you mention we need a license for which we can pay as much as we'd like. Now that last part doesn't seem very open source to me.

Fair enough if you want to make money with this, that's your right and I don't think anyone will try to stop you. But don't say it's open source when it's not.

Could you explain, if Light Table is released, what will I have to do to obtain a copy? If payment is involved, please explain to me how it is open source. What license will be used (MIT, GPL etc, if you roll your own, please outline the major parts)?

<comment><USER24> I was confused by this at first also. Open source means you can look at the source code. Sometimes it means more than that (often depending on who is using the term).

GNU's criticism of open source: [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source- misses-the-point.h...](http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the- point.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is no open source.

When I saw the Light Table demo, I wanted to build it for CoffeeScript, and I could do it.

This morning I found this, I got excited because I could use your interface and create a plugin for CoffeeScript. I was hoping I would be able to simply clone it and start working.

Instead I'm asked to pay X dollars to only get access to early beta?

> I'm a firm believer in open source

Yeah? Then make it open source. Develop it publicly on GitHub. Let people contribute. Don't make them pay.

> As such, I believe it only fair that the core of Light Table be open sourced > once it is launched.

I believe I just gave you hundred dollars. Can I have the beta access now?

<comment><USER26> Developing things in the open can be a drag for a product first getting off the ground. People pull in different directions, want different things, and fork the project (and the community) in doing so. I'm a strong believer in free (as in speech) software, but the practicalities of doing so too soon in a product's lifecycle can kill it.

Personally, I'm more than happy for them to get the core done properly, and open-source later.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> $10,000 for a logo (and link?) from the front page of a popular project like this could be pretty cheap SEO.

I know Apache (the foundation, not the software) used to have a problem with sponsors who were basically buying links. Apparently sponsoring Apache was cheaper than trying to buy links on comparatively ranked sites.

It looks like there could be at least one company on <http://www.apache.org/foundation/thanks.html> at the moment that still falls into that category.

</comment><comment><USER45> I just pledged $50. I did it for the license. As I did so, I realized: this must mean Light Table isn't going to be free software. Presumably I'm getting it at a discount for being an investor. Does it adequately compensate me for the risk of buying a nonexistent product? Shouldn't I get some percentage of its profits, if it's not going to be free software after an injection of more than $200K? Does the license give me lifetime upgrades, or only the first version?

These were my thoughts as I clicked through the Amazon payment buttons.

<comment><USER2> The problem is that it appears that $50 is not a discount on the final price at all, so you really get no added value by pledging money to help him make this a reality more than a year before you'll ever see anything.

<comment><USER45> He's now added a $15 license option, so I changed my pledge. He hasn't responded about the longevity of the license.

<comment><USER2> Yes, I've now pledged at the $50 level now that he added beta access to that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I am considering contributing but I don't have a sense of how long my vision needs to be. Do you have any sense of when a working alpha would ship?

<comment><USER12> From the pledge section:

$50 gets you access in May 2013 $100 gets you access in December 2012 $200 gets you access in October 2012 $500 gets you access in August 2012 $1000+ gets you access in May

<comment><USER46> Ok, I will probably hold off on contributing then. I had alpha access for Sublime Text 2 for $60, and that seems reasonable to me. A $50 400 day pre- order is a little more than I can handle.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I signed up on Kickstarter just for Light Table. Now I can't wait until December!

</comment><comment><USER48> I pledged $500. The only reason I'm being public about it is because I see people in here complaining about the cost of a license and wanting their dollars to translate into something more than this project simply becoming a reality.

I don't have a barrel full of money by any stretch of the imagination, but given all of the lispers and schemers on Hacker News, pg's essays, and so on, I find it surprising that there would be as much hesitation as there is about paying $50 for some of smalltalk's greatest hits coupled with an environment that lowers the barrier to entry for people to dig into the best modern lisp around.

I'm donating because I want to live in a better place, not because I want a license. The cost of _not_ funding a project that could mainstream so many lost and forgotten great ideas while simultaneously promoting some of the best new ones, seems sort of like a crime against the craft of programming in general.

I mean no offense, just an observation.

</comment><comment><USER49> Why is the first tangible reward a t-shirt and not the product?

If I was going to fund something, I would want to know my money is going to the product and not merchandise.

I don't think a YC pitch would go well if they said "And with the first $10k we're going to send out t-shirts to the first 1000 subscribers on the mailing list."

</comment><comment><USER50> If it's written in Javascript based on code mirrorand the only thing closed source are a few plugins not related to the actual language plugins, then it should be fairly easy to roll a package with chromium or Firefox built around it. I expect a few show HN posts. I also hope for hosted solutions, and licensing for students. This seems like an excellent way to learn a language.

I think we will see done aspects turned into plugins and add ons for existing IDEs but that is not the same as building this intentionally from the ground up. If you can have function reference lookup, for example, and if it's built in Javascript, you can probably build in other forms of reference already on the Web. Pervasive passive information that you would normally have to search for.

</comment><comment><USER51> Just backed and looking forward to trying this out!

I just have one question/suggestion just in case it makes sense. My main hesitation with using a browser-based IDE is that with native apps, I can use standard quick-keys to navigate documents very quickly using just the keyboard, such as flipping between documents, jumping my cursor to the beginning or end of a line/document and shift-arrowing/tabbing to make a selection. These are very basic and simple things, but without them, I would have to painfully use my trackpad/mouse to make selections, navigate the cursor around, or switch between documents. Just wondering if you're considering this type of functionality that will let me perform quick and simple actions through keyboard commands.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm a huge vim guy, and killed me to use the mouse as much as I did in the video. The real thing will be shortcuttable to your heart's content :) And all the standard things you would expect to work (like the ones you describe) will definitely be there before the end.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Was going to pledge the project, but saw "it is browser-based, it will packaged in a webview of some kind so that it feels like a normal app". Nothing wrong with browser-based editor, but I am comfortable with native app. That's my personal preference.

</comment><comment><USER53> If closure is one of the first languages, how easy would it be to support java?

<comment><USER33> I am looking forward to Java support as well. I will be backing this project even if it isn't included, but the value in my workflow would be tackling Java.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> $50 is way too much, especially since I don't use javascript or clojure and I don't see myself switching... ever. If there was C support or even python, then it would much much less of a risk for my money.

<comment><AUTHOR> Python will come in at $300k, but one thing to keep in mind is that it is a highly extensible and completely open platform. There's no reason we have to be the ones to add support for all languages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Just in case it's useful to anyone else, an HD version of the video (where the code is legible) is available on vimeo here: <http://vimeo.com/40281991>

</comment><comment><USER56> T-shirt printing, packing, and delivery appears to be an unfilled niche.

</comment><comment><USER2> I was really anticipating this Kickstarter campaign to start, but the pledge levels are a real downer. I don't mind paying $50 to get the licensee, but I should get beta access for that. This project looks really cool, but essentially preordering something over a year in advance (and lets face it, these timelines never actually get met) for the same price or more than you would pay when it is actually released without even getting beta access is somewhat insulting. What incentive do I have to pledge right now?

</comment><comment><USER53> Where can I read more about the implementation details. I'm particularly interested in how well it will work on an "enterprise" app, e.g. 500K loc with some ugly dependencies.

</comment><comment><USER57> Just a thought; when I read the title and started reading the description, I thought you were actually selling a giant drafting-table sized LCD.

If you wanted to integrate the IDE well with one particular piece of really nice kit, and then tell people that if they donate more than $BIGNUM, they get a nice workstation, all setup and integrated.

(just a silly idea. That's probably more of a distraction than you want. But it could be showy.)

</comment><comment><USER58> Not trying to add one more "VIM IS BETTER" comment like happens on every thread about editors, but I have an actual, for-real question: who wants to help make a Vim workalike version of this? Because I would donate to that (in time, meager Vimscript skills, money) in a heartbeat.

<comment><USER59> I'd be very interested in pursuing this. I have some of this functionality already via numerous vim plugins, but not all of it. If I get a free moment in the next couple weeks I'll start writing something up about what already exists and what is missing.

Want to mention I think Light Table looks fantastic, but now that I have internalized vim's key bindings I am very hesitant to switch. That said, I still pledged on kickstarter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Anyone have insight into how the tool that shows variables as it passed through functions would work in an extensible "port over the language of your choice" way? Is this reliant on stack tracing/debug tools or more rudimentary methods?

</comment><comment><USER61> Thanks for making the change. I just pledged $15 for a license. I'll make good on my promise and spread the word around my networks, and hope others who pledged the least for a license payback in similar ways too.

All the best Chris.

</comment><comment><USER62> Very cool, but I had to ask the question: Is this similar to / also based around the Iguana translator? Thread here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3856159>

</comment><comment><USER63> If the guy is so excited about this concept, has he tried prototyping in as an (emacs/vim/eclipse/etc.) plugin? And if not, why? It seems that at least a few of those features could be shown off before he goes asking for $200K.

<comment><USER30> Yes, he has a working prototype, check the video.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> I'd pledge the full $200K if they would take on C++ immediately. I am so sick and tired of IDEs that suck at delivering solid C++ coding environment. The best tool I've found for the job, to date, is Source Insight.

</comment><comment><USER41> I've thrown some of mine into the pot. As a Clojure apprentice, I'm eager to see the beta. However, I honestly doubt that some of the desired languages are even possible - C, really? Even JS seems dubious.

<comment><USER65> the javascript console in most browsers and JSLint already do this to some degree, Light Table just has to automate it. same goes for Ruby (IRB and ruby -S)

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> I was hoping for an open source project rather than a $200,000 product, but that's just me… Besides, Javascript being the main supported language is a put off to be honest. But there goes my $1.

</comment><comment><USER67> mmm....if i contribute 10 bucks, i would expect at least a copy of the software. Plus, the UI is not too exciting and their expecation for investment might be abit high IMO

</comment><comment><USER68> one of those times when continually clicking "refresh" is fun.

<comment><USER69> Woaha, that's a see-to-believe it. From $800 to $2 000+ in the time it took me to skim a couple of HN comments.

<comment><USER68> I am super excited, I have been doing backend development with rails and been kind of intimidated moving into doing more front-end stuff. I think LT is the answer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> So will this be a native app or will it need to be run inside the browser? I'm guessing the prototype was a web app but the final product will be native?

<comment><USER71> He has said it will run on top of the browser.

<comment><USER70> "In order to download the distributions, you'll need a license." Dosen't sound like a web app to me.

<comment><USER71> I understood it as a piece of software that runs in a browser, not necessarily a webapp. Could be local code that runs in your average browser, could be a stripped down browser that only runs this app, or it could be a native app that includes a webview as it's main interface.

<comment><USER70> So I guess we don't quite know yet. Will be interesting to see how he implements it! I just can't see myself using something browser-based as an ide but I suppose if it runs in an embedded "webview" that could be best of both worlds.

<comment><USER72> The FAQ on the kickstarter page says: "While it is browser-based, it will packaged in a webview of some kind so that it feels like a normal app."

<comment><USER73> I really hope they decide to move away from a browser based solution. I have personally toyed with the idea of making a web based IDE for front-end development, and had came across so many issues in my "experiments" that I decided it wasn't worth it.

Lets talk about editors..

CodeMirror/Ace as an editor.

While both Code Mirror and Ace ( A spin off from Mozilla's Bespin editor ) Have done a very good job, as Marijn Haverbeke ( Code Mirror author ) puts it, of "In-browser code editing made bearable". Neither are smooth / fluid / responsive enough for every/all day coding. If you read

<http://codemirror.net/doc/internals.html>

You will get a good sense of why the browser is a very harsh environment for a code editor to adapt to.

Alternatively you can have a play with any one of the tools, that use Code Mirror and Ace.

Try to use them for an extended period of time and you will see what I mean.

        http://jsbin.com ( Code Mirror )
        http://c9.io ( Ace Editor )

I love the concept, and I'm going to be making a donation either way. I just hope that they move away from the idea of a browser based editor. Before investing a huge amount of time and energy into it, and end up with an inferior product, largely attributed to the platform it's running on.

As a front-end developer, I'm all for making as much as I can browser based / cross platform, and pushing the limits of the browser. But from personal experience the browser isn't the place to be writing the code to do it.

<comment><USER5> IMO it's a shame they stopped development on Bespin. It felt so smooth and fluid to code on because it used canvas. You totally forgot you were coding in a browser. Ace is great but it just doesn't feel the same eh.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> For a change, I wish this wasn't web-based, but based on Chromium and really fast.

(And with a great plugin system).

<comment><AUTHOR> It is all of those things :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> May 2013? I can't wait for so long.

</comment><comment><USER76> Will it have any support for popular JS modularisation libraries like require.js?

</comment><comment><USER77> $200k seems like an awful lot to me. I don't see why you need a massive team to make an IDE. It's not like you're making a game, where you need artists, programmers, composers, etc. All this is is programming.

</comment><comment><USER78> so the software is opensource, but they are providing official binaries for a Fee. Hmm..very similar to what XChat did a while ago

</comment><comment><USER79> With the new early beta access for $50, I'm in.

</comment><comment><USER80> I don't get it. This proposal sounds like Eclipse that exists today plus a couple of small new plugin for the more aspirational bits.

</comment><comment><USER81> The current pricing structure is discouraging backers, in my opinion. You tell us that when it's released it will most likely be pay-what-you-want, but if we pay early and support the project we are pushed into $50. I can guarantee you that if you do pay-what-you-want, your average isn't going to be $50.

I don't know what percentage of backers are the kind that do it merely to "support" a project, but I would guess it's not more than 10-15% of all backers for a given project.

The rest want some value for their money beyond feeling good about backing. You state you chose $50 for a license because that is what you think it is worth. I think you'll find out that what you think people will pay you for something and what they are willing to pay differs by a factor of 2-3.

So most of the people that want what you are going to make, even a little, probably don't want to spend more than $20 or $25. The difference between that and $50 is made up from goodwill, but that's really asking a lot of people.

I would recommend making some more tiers between $5 and $50, where everything above $20 gets a license. This way you capture the people that just want the product, and give others the ability to show their goodwill as well.

This isn't the kind of project that really needs swag. Nobody really wants a t-shirt. If you do something like promise to list backers (and their associated tiers) in the "credits" of the app, that would probably be great for most people.

edit: typos, and wording

<comment><USER82> Agreed. $50 for a license it too high. Lowering it to $15 for a license would put it in impulse buy territory for most people, and you'd likely get a _lot_ more backers and receive more money. Personally, I don't know you at all, so I have no reason to trust that you will produce something good, and so I don't want to gamble $50 on it. But, I would gamble $15 on it.

The other software kickstarters I've backed have included a copy of the product for the lowest tier (usually $15), and then added swag like t-shirts at the higher tiers.

Something like this:

$15: Light Table license

$30: Light Table license and included in the list of contributors

$50: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, and early access to beta

$100: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, early access to betas, and t-shirt

Lowering the early access will get you more beta testers, and raising the t-shirt higher will make you have to ship less t-shirts.

<comment><AUTHOR> I couldn't change them even if I wanted to now that money is involved. But I think looking at this as buying something is also inaccurate. Ultimately kickstarter is a way of helping things turn into a reality - not a place to shop. It's basically a form of donation, that just happens to have some reward associated to it.

<comment><USER47> I love how the top-voted comments on HN are always "the price is too high!" And yet, Light Table has already raised $22k in 4 hours-not a bad start.

<comment><USER83> I actually think the amount would be much higher had the $50 included beta.

<comment><USER47> What data are you basing this off of? Have you ever tried selling products at significantly different prices and measuring revenue/profit? I have-as one example, I've sold the same PDFs at $.99, $9.99, and $49.99. The $.99 and $9.99 price points got about the same revenue, with $9.99 getting much higher profit due to transaction costs. But $49.99 got much, much more revenue and profit than either of the lower-priced options. And I've seen this over and over again, with a variety of products.

<comment><USER83> What you said is confirmation of my guessing. I'm saying if $50 includes beta (currently only $100 [EDIT: just saw $50 for beta added, thanks for listening to HNers ibdnox! Oh, wait, that access is much later than the $100 price point..]), then the amount he may be getting may be higher than the current amount.

FYI, no data to base off, just guessing, hence the words "think", "would" in my post you're replying to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> The main thing holding me back is the supported languages. I don't use Clojure and I'm not a big enough Javascript fan. Suggestion: Add more languages if you reach enough backing

$200k: JS and Clojure

$250k: JS, Clojure and C

$300k: JS, Clojure, C and ...

<comment><USER53> C would be INCREDIBLE

<comment><USER85> C development in this manner isn't a particularly trivial matter. C header compilation and decleration alone complicates this.

<comment><USER86> libclang could help a lot here, as it gives access to the internals of a C/C++ compiler all the way from tokenizing to code generation. It also has built-in support for all kinds of IDE features such as code completion and fixit hints.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Sentient: Classified artificial brain being developed by US intelligence - ajay-d https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/31/20746926/sentient-national-reconnaissance-office-spy-satellites-artificial-intelligence-ai <comment><AUTHOR> Everyone involved in this article has an incentive to overstate its abilities. The creators will say it is better than it is to get more work. Defense to create a deterrent. Journalists to get clicks.

Given the baseline for government understanding of AI is poor, my prior on how impressive this thing is in reality (as some sort of AGI pathway breakthrough) is pretty low.

I would bet they have some large database and some good, but mostly conventional IT around it.

<comment><USER2> Having worked in the intel community (long ago), I suspect the practical purpose of Sentient is to replicate the mind of the intel analyst -- to select and fuse multiple intelligence sources into a coherent story that suggests an underlying human activity that would be of interest to investigate further or classify as actionable and then pass it along to an operational group like law enforcement or the military.

Another possibility, of course, is FUD. Promote a project as being more impactful than it really is so that your political critics are distracted by it and thus overlook your other projects that are more important, short-term, and real.

You do have to wonder. Why would a secrecy-driven org like NRO employ a meaningful and daunting project name like "Sentient" unless you _want_ outsiders to become take an interest in the program? When you want a program to fly under the public radar, you name it something meaningless and innocuous like "BranMuffin" or "Spatula", not meaningful and fearful like "KillerFlyingRobots".

<comment><USER3> I mean, this is the same NRO that made the infamous NROL-39 mission patch, with a sinister looking octopus reaching across the planet, caption reading "Nothing Is Beyond Our Reach."

Link for the unfamiliar: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA-247#/media/File%3ANrol-3...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA-247#/media/File%3ANrol-39.jpg)

<comment><USER4> I guess I see why it's controversial but that is a bodacious looking patch.

<comment><USER3> it's really good. I've seen people wearing it in ironic/punk way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It sounds like a new version of SIOP, the Cold War program to produce a plan for nuclear war based on computer simulations incorporating data on assets, capabilities, etc. of both sides. It was the inspiration for WOPR from _WarGames_ , though the real plan required humans to actually run the simulations and make command decisions.

That name is stupid. It's like aspirational marketing. It reminds me of the artificial intelligence from _Team America: World Police_ , called INTELLIGENCE.

<comment><USER6> SIOP was a plan though - originally it didn't even have any conditionality:

 _" During the briefings, Marine Corps commandant David Shoup (the service with the most marginal nuclear responsibilities) saw a chart that showed that the initial attack would kill tens of millions of Chinese. At the closing meeting, General Shoup asked General Power what would happen if Beijing was not fighting; was there an option to leave Chinese targets out of the attack plan? Power was reported to have said that he hoped no one would think of that "because it would really screw up the plan"\--that is, the plan was supposed to be executed as a whole. Apparently Shoup then observed that "any plan that kills millions of Chinese when it isn't even their war is not a good plan. This is not the American way."_

<comment><USER7> "Killing millions of Chinese... is not the American way"?

He must have avoided many history books to come to that conclusion.

<comment><USER8> Is there some China - America war that I missed?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Reminder: Way back when the AT&T 'secret rooms' that enabled the NSA to tap all traffic were revealed, we learned that the NSA relies heavily upon an extremely questionable legal opinion written by their own lawyers which says that communications do not count as 'collected' or 'intercepted' until a HUMAN operator reads the plaintext. That means no amount of automated processing, machine learning, statistical analysis, filtering, profiling, etc run on your communications or its metadata amounts to your communications being 'intercepted' as far as they are concerned. They know this legal opinion is dicey, and they will do absolutely anything, including dropping cases entirely, to avoid having it tested in court.

</comment><comment><USER10> Everyone in this thread is talking about how it's fake, but this does have an actual implication for the dangers of AGI. If every world government is scrambling to pretend to have it, nobody will be able to tell when someone actually invents it.

<comment><USER11> That's entering conspiracy territory. A government is just as likely to hide a massive revolution in AI as it would space flight with "alien technology", which means extremely unlikely.

The simple fact is they'd need the best minds of the world working on it and as we saw with the Manhattan project the people working on it tended to have the best grasp of the implications and wouldn't keep it secret for long. Plus it'd turn whatever country had it into an economic powerhouse which is way more valuable than some classified intelligence product.

<comment><USER12> Stuxnet.

<comment><USER11> What about it?

<comment><USER13> I think the idea is that there won't necessarily be any whistleblowers even if the secret project has dubious or even scary implications.

I'm not sure the Manhattan Project is a great example either; who leaked that into the public domain? Or did you mean in some other sense?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> My understanding is that the world's preeminent ML researchers are refusing to contribute to the defense industry, are extremely well compensated in the private sector, and prefer to publish their work over hiding it as a trade or national secret. Given this, how are we to believe that the NRO has developed the world's most capable ML system, somehow years ahead of a field that is already perhaps the most dynamic field of research in science, utilizing, at best, second rate talent? Mark me a skeptic.

<comment><USER15> > second rate talent

Not saying this is true - or even workable - but maybe they've figured out a way to apply so-called "second rate talent" to create "first rate results"?

For instance, have you ever researched how machining and machine tools came to be?

That is, how it was possible to create a machine capable of tolerances within say, 10-thousandths of an inch (that is, a really, really small amount, regardless of the units) - when the machines and tooling prior to that were no where near capable of doing that work?

In other words - how were we able to make more accurate machines using less accurate machines?

Maybe the same principles are being utilized by the NRO for this project...

<comment><USER14> I'm a mechanical engineer and I have literally no idea what you're getting at here. We can machine to 10mil because we have precision motors and measurement equipment. For $25 you can get a micrometer off Amazon which is accurate to .0001.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I had assumed from the title it was about AI rather than a proxy brain, but as someone with a damaged meat bag and miserable QOL as a result, I long for a transfer into an artificial body/brain where once can repair/replace parts and be as good as new. I don't imagine its possible at all really, let alone in the short time I have left, but one can dream.

<comment><USER17> I hope I am not being rude asking about this, apologies in advance: because I have two friends with MS I have wondered if consumer VR gear (Oculus Quest, etc.) could improve quality of life as they get reduced mobility. Have you used VR to augment your life experiences? I have tried a few VR experiences that are very good and it seems likely that really high quality VR with haptics could both help people with physical problems and in the future, provide fun experiences if we get downloaded to an artificial body/brain. Do you have any opinions on this?

<comment><USER16> Not rude at all and happy to give input, however my circumstances are different than those with MS/ALS etc so not sure how relevant it will be. I can still "technically" walk, move, appear fairly normal outwardly, I am just in severe pain all the time, have ongoing damage to joints and nerves from surgery that caused this, and my endurance and mental state has gone with it. It's a slowly creeping degeneration after a massive initial decrease, and isn't at all like those mentioned neurodegenerative issues where brain function is failing rapidly. I have some other physical issues as well that compound this.

From a philosophical point of view for ME personally, VR/AR/the internet/gaming etc isn't an adequate substitute for "real life" and I personally don't derive enough from substitutes to feel my quality of life is good, it's more just clinging to SOME interaction as I do here on HN. However I am sure for some people it is enough to make a significant impact and I find it a worthy avenue to pursue.

From a physical point of view, my circumstances make even the above things worse as I have some visual issues that cause headaches/eyestrain etc severely with most modern display types for some yet undetermined reason. It's none of the obvious once like PWM/blue light etc. So I am in a really corner case spot with tech and clinging to a super old device or two that aren't long for the world. I also have monovision and severe amblyopia so VR headsets don't work even if I could stand the display tech. I can stand a few min here and there to post a comment. But I cannot spend hours online or on screen anymore. A perfect ironic hit since that was about the only earning potential left and its already cost me the one real shot I have had in years. So often people are facing multiple disabilities from multiple angles.

I hope its helpful although I doubt I said much of substance.

<comment><USER17> That was useful, thanks for your response!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> tl;dr It's an automated image classification system ("Tank division identified"), with some ability to identify and predict movement of said objects ("Tank division likely moving east"). Not sure how the Verge author jumped from predictive defense analytics to "it's a brain!."

I'm also highly skeptical of this system's predictive abilities. I recall a similar system (also described as "modeled after the human brain," whatever that means) from my time at a major defense contractor. It tried to predict the movements of the enemy and feelings of the non-combatant population via scrapings of news sites, social media, and other online sources. Never mind that the target battlefield was Afghanistan, where Internet adoption isn't quite 100%.

<comment><USER2> Agreed. Consider the year of Sentient's inception: 2013. That's one year after Krizhevsky, Sutskever and Hinton first revealed the power of CNNs to classify images -- something the NRO cares about a great deal since their primary product is satellite imagery.

</comment></comment><comment> vincent-toups The US Government can barely develop a fighter jet or a elevator without fucking it up. One wonders about their prospects for a brain.

<comment><USER19> Technically, the gov doesn't really build all that much. It's the private contractors and private firms they hire to do it.

But theres a fun thing about some hundred or so Marines got greenlit to buy 3d printers and start building a wide range of stuff for themselves. After making new crayon flavors, they went on and built extremely cheap gear delivery drones of some 700lbs capacity and a whole slew of other stuff without red tape. It's actually impressive.

<comment><USER20> Link? I'm down to my last few crayons

<comment><USER19> So I read it in an army or marine magazine a few years ago. But here's a link that lightly goes over it [https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/mcsc-trains-us- marines-t...](https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/mcsc-trains-us-marines-to- use-3d-printing-157813/)

Google marine 3d print, cool articles and stories.

Lookup marine plywood drone. They had to do it with a firm due to gov contracting laws. But from what I understand it's mostly designed/built by marines (word of mouth). There are more and more stories like this that are popping up. Sad part, big contractors cry foul of marines making repair parts and their own gear. From what I understand, that's why they need other firms to "take ownership" on projects.

Theres a cool 3d print barracks project you can Google too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Keep in mind that America does not reveal such things until she has already invented the next generation, typically. I would assume that since this is out, they've got their next version up-and-running already.

</comment><comment><USER22> If I were the editor of this publication, I'd argue that, while titles like this:

"IT'S SENTIENT Meet the classified artificial brain being developed by US intelligence programs"

Might get short term attention they are bad for the long term credibility of the publication. "SENTIENT" is a clever code name for the project, but I didn't see anything to suggest that the program in question had anything to do with sentience. It seems like it's a program to synthesize and present data from a wide array of sources, and that's neat, but why try to pitch it as something that it's clearly not.

Warren Buffett once said you can have a ballet and that's fine. You can have a rock concert and that's fine. But don't have a ballet and market it as a rock concert. If you want to write a story about software that presents data insights, please label it as such and I'll be interested in reading it. Don't label it as a story about artificial brain sentience because then I'll complain in the comments.

<comment><USER23> I have to agree with you on this one. I too thought they were trying to sell us on a computer being sentient. But sentient is just code name for their "brain" they are building. Clickbaity almost.

<comment><USER24> The most successful clickbait is the clickbait you aren't quite comfortable to label as such but it's really close to the line. So, mission accomplished for the publisher I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> What could go wrong?

<comment><USER26> Read the 1966 cold war novel, Colossus. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_(novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_\(novel\))

Or watch the 1970 film based on the novel, Colossus: The Forbin Project. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus%3A_The_Forbin_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus%3A_The_Forbin_Project)

TLDR: World peace enforced by computers and resisted by their creators.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> What could go wrong?

</comment><comment> blaser-waffle Do you want Ghost In the Shell?

Because this is how you end up with Ghost In the Shell.

</comment><comment><USER28> >Until now, Sentient has been treated as a government secret, except for vague allusions in a few speeches and presentations.

So we can be certain the Chinese have a complete copy of all the relevant software and files.</comment>


Workplace loneliness is a real problem. For 45 hours a week I feel isolated - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/loneliness-at-work-introvert-sadness-bereft-in-bustling-office <comment><USER2> > One expert advises breaking the ice each morning with a "Hi!", as if that is > a relationship builder, rather than something done by all but the most > sociopathic.

Exactly. Starting a casual chat with strangers (or half-strangers that happen to be colleagues) is not an easy thing for an introvert, who to have a chat needs to have a topic to talk about, otherwise he stays silent. It's a chicken-and-egg problem: no common topic leads to no chat, which leads to not getting to know those strangers, which leads back to no common topic with them.

Simple "hi" is not nearly enough to have a chat. It is a first step, but there are dozens following that are still needed. It's like saying that writing a sentence leads to a writing book. It's necessary, but it's not enough on its own.</comment>


Cyber security: Queen to open centre to protect against attacks - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38964996 <comment><USER2> Will Adam Lambert be participating?</comment>


Lab-grown food will soon destroy farming – and save the planet - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/08/lab-grown-food-destroy-farming-save-planet <comment><USER2> This worries me a lot. When depressed I would supplement with zinc and magnesium. It helped a bit. Until I learned that one can get it from seafood. It helped a bit. Learning about anti nutrients and how they block the absorption of nutrients was the biggest thing that turned my life around. .. Scientists making flour might just copy from nature but what is it they are making?

</comment><comment><USER3> food contains many trace elements and things we need that we dont fully understand.

Even slightly changing the natural feed of an animal we eat dramatically changes the quality and nutritional value.

thinking that you can so dramatically change the production (and only produce one part of a food - one of the proteins) all the other elements we need are lost.

It sounds like a recipe for malnutrition.</comment>


PyGameZine issue0 launches. The zine by pygame developers. - <AUTHOR> http://www.pygamezine.com/

<comment><USER2> Recommended improvements: \- Preview of the current magazine. I would never buy before I knew what it was. \- The site design takes me back to my first website in the early nineties. If you don't know how to design, then just use something like Twitter Bootstrap. \- And most important, why should I buy this? This should be explained succinctly on the site.

<comment><USER3> Agreed. A sample page or two would help me decide if I'd buy this. As of right now, however, I wouldn't spend a dime on it as nearly everything on the page is useless to a Python newbie who's interested in game programming like me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It seems like a pretty interesting time to be a game dev. Lot's of game competition, stuff like Humble bundle coming up on HN this past year, not to mention rise of all the app stores. I really liked the store that rolls out with Ubuntu(aka software center), it has some pretty neat Indie games that you can buy. Some of them you might already know from the humble bundles.

I'm trying to build a dribble for game devs. If any game devs are interested, they can sign up at <http://metroia.com>

Here's the original reddit post that inspired me to start working on it on the side: [http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/l9wdv/ask_gamedev_i...](http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/l9wdv/ask_gamedev_is_there_any_interest_in_a_site_like/)</comment>


Forcing Microsoft to reverse DRM will harm the games industry  - <AUTHOR> http://square-go.com/forcing-microsoft-reverse-decision-bad-games-industry/

<comment><USER3> There is nothing in this article to convince me of Microsoft's DRM model as leading us into any sort of growth in the games industry.

If anything, it was entirely a step in the opposite direction. We would have had to relinquish control of our physical purchases to Microsoft's 24-hour scrutiny. They would have unfairly taken a cut of used game sales, in direct violation of First Sale Doctrine.

They would like to try to convince you that all of the great features related to their DRM were completely dependent upon the DRM scheme, but there are still alternatives. Games sharing can still work, if they concede that a small amount of so-called abuse is acceptable.

I've also seen absolutely nothing from Microsoft that would lead me to believe that any of their plans would reduce the costs of games. Every time they mention DRM it's in the context of preventing piracy, which they say drives game prices up. If they had unleashed a DRM scheme and had enough confidence in its efficacy, they could also have announced new pricing schemes as a result, which would have placated the majority of gamers.

<comment><USER4> > Games sharing can still work, if they concede that a small amount of so- > called abuse is acceptable.

Publishers would never allow this.

<comment><USER3> That's where the real change in gaming needs to take place, with the publishers.

It's been well-proven by Steam et al. that if you price correctly and use an unobtrusive (or even nonexistent in the case of GOG) DRM scheme, people would much rather buy and support their favorite games developers (and publishers) than go through the effort of pirating a title.

That's why games sharing would work with only minimal abuse. Not because it wouldn't be technically feasible for the consumer to abuse the system, but because the barrier to actually owning the games they want to play would be so low that it would become the new path of least resistance.

The sky's the limit if the industry can learn to treat their customers with respect.

Edit: By the way, a version of games sharing already exists on the PS3. If you purchase a game digitally on PSN you can install and play it simultaneously on multiple PS3s as long as your account is on each of them, I believe up to a limit of 5 PS3s.

<comment><USER5> _" The sky's the limit if the industry can learn to treat their customers with respect."_

Fucking shame it is then that the customers do not extend the same courtesy.

Are you familiar with the phrase "pearls before swine"?

<comment><USER3> If you'd like to cite any examples of gamers needlessly disrespecting the games industry, in whole or in part, I'm all ears.

As for this particular instance, the DRM scheme proposed was clearly anti- consumer in nature. The disrespect the gaming community showed Microsoft as a result of it was entirely justified.

It will be some time before Microsoft regains the respect of the majority of gamers, if at all.

<comment><USER5> Sure.

First, consider how many gamers can articulate the difference between developers and publishers, and who they get angry at when games don't go according to plan.

In my own home town, Timegate Studios just shuddered from the debacle of Aliens: Colonial Marines--and was widely blamed by ignorant gamers despite a history of solid games and expansions.

Gamers bitched to no end about Steam when it was required for CS 1.6, even though it was the future. Look at all the complaints about CS:GO from the hardcore players (one memorable thread involved a HUD tweak driving some clan rabid because it screwed up their grenade-throwing technique). Others complain about Valve doing nothing since Episode 2, ignoring Left 4 Dead and Team Fortress 2 and DOTA and whatnot.

Look at the way gamers and reviewers panned Duke Nukem Forever, ignoring the fact that dozens of people poured _over a decade of their lives_ into that thing.

Look at the flooding of gamers over to free-to-play and ad-driven titles, pushing the race-to-the-bottom of devs only to then give angry reviews on the app store.

Look at how every online game reviewer and game poster crows and white knights about the portrayl of women and gender roles in games, and yet look at how they actually spend their dollar vote.

Look at how the gamers mocked Doom3 for having a pretty solid and amazing lighting engine and pushing shadow tech to the limits of its time.

Look how gamers today complain about older titles that don't hold their hands with navigation and lots of simple mission objectives--and then bitch about how games today are too linear.

Gamers are the worst sort of customer after dollar web-hosting ones.

<comment><USER6> It depends on who you're talking about. There are many different types of gamers out there. The biggest violator of this is what I'd call the `en masse` gamers - Those that play only the most marketed titles that 'all their friends' are playing. 95% of their library include games like CoD/Modern Warfare, League of Legends, and Diablo III.

The second violators of this are what I'd call the `On-the-Go` gamers - <USER2> who play games that don't take a ton of involvement or time to get going into them. Their library typically includes games like Angry Birds, Bejeweled, Sim City, and Nintendoland.

Coincidentally, it seems to be that the biggest names out there seem to focus their marketing on these two archetypes the most. I partially think it is because they're the least interested in all the crap and drama that goes on in the games industry, and secondly, they're the most impressionable when it comes to marketing. Make things big, gritty, and loud to attract `en masse` gamers - Make things colorful, shiny, and quick for `On-the-Go` gamers. Easy money.

It is quite a bit more difficult to reach the `core` gamers (of which there are many sub-types). These people care less about games being easy to consume, and more about the quality and depth of a title. These gamers have no problem with voting with their dollar and will often prefer games they know and love if the newest game doesn't look up to par. Unfortunately these types have been slowly getting outnumbered as easy to consume games bring in new customers that don't really care about the differences between developers or publishers.

Regular gamers can be great customers, but slowly it seems like games are being marketed toward gamers who don't care about the games they're consuming and who won't complain when 50kg of DRM and ads are tacked onto their game.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _> The online and DRM policies were designed to drive the industry forward toward a digital future._

If the article attempted to justify this statement, and then attempted to demonstrate that those policies would have the effects they were designed to have, and then finally shown how these effects would benefit the games industry, it would have fulfilled the promise of its title.

</comment><comment><USER8> I don't get why it has to be such a big, all-or-nothing deal. Offer the same new games as downloads with the new terms and as discs.

If you want the more modern terms with their conveniences and downsides, buy it online through the console and have it tied to your account.

If you want to buy a disc, you follow the old rules. You must have the disc to play, but you can also loan it to friends or play it offline.

It has worked that way with the existing Xbox 360, except you can't find the newest games online.

</comment><comment><USER9> you dont need 24 hour drm to go all digital, steam does it without that, why cant microsoft?

Also I dont think that "the future of video games" is a future anyone would want where consumers have to ask Microsoft's permission to play our games, or where developers must go by Microsofts rules (such as indies can't self publish, or microsoft taking a cut of used game sales).

Giving Microsoft that much power and control over peoples digital libraries is foolish, and I dont see in any way possible that the game sharing feature (which is the only standout one) would be allowed at all by publishers, or that it would work as they led people to believe. Do you really think publishers or microsoft themselves would allow friend networks to share games with everyone? That would harm profits for them and publishers much more than piracy ever would.

</comment><comment><USER10> I call bullshit. DRM has never been good.

<comment><USER5> Which is why Steam has been such a fail...oh wait, no it hasn't. Maybe, perhaps, DRM can be done in a way that satisfies all stakeholders.

<comment><USER11> You can't really compare Steam's DRM to what Microsoft was proposing. Steam doesn't have the online checks and it isn't your only option if you want to buy PC games. A lot of the DRM Microsoft was going to implement simply didn't make sense for a platform that was supposedly closed to begin with.

<comment><USER5> Steam phones homes given the opportunity--Microsoft saying, hey, once a day the box phones home is completely reasonable, especially if it enables certain other features as it seems it would.

<comment><USER11> I had a time where I suddenly didn't have access to internet for 3 weeks, and I didn't get the chance to put steam properly in offline mode or anything, however it still worked completely fine during this time and didn't feel the need to phone home.

If I had an xbox one, I wouldn't be able to play my single player games after at most 24 hours.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is such bullshit. People have been buying and selling used games for the last thirty years. If it is such a detriment to the game industry how come the combined annual gross sales have exceeded Hollywood movies over the last few years?

</comment><comment><USER13> In summary: "the current state of our industry sucks so we should do everything we can to alienate our most passionate customers because, well, ITS TIME TO PANIC and casual gamers are a bunch of sheep anyway".

</comment><comment><USER14> There's no doubt about it. Wish they had stuck to their decision.

</comment><comment><USER15> What I can't understand is why publishers didn't speak up before the reversal, if this is so import to them and such as good deal to customers (lower initial purchase cost.)

</comment><comment><USER16> All these brave pro DRM articles after microsoft drops it...</comment>


The perfect Django setup. - <AUTHOR> http://blog.stochastictechnologies.com/the-perfect-django-setup

<comment><USER2> Nice article, although I would like to point 2 things:

1) The line for creating virtualenv is really missing. Also, you would probably like to point out that it should be create with "--no-site-packages" (at least that's the way I prefer to do it).

2) Why there is Varnish in front of nginx? I see this mistake repeated again and again...

<comment><AUTHOR> 1) pip creates the virtualenv if it doesn't exist, and uses --no-site-packages by default (as far as I know, anyway).

2) Why not? Varnish is awesome. Is nginx as flexible as Varnish when it comes to caching?

<comment><USER2> 1) Sorry, my bad... Usually I've got only setuptools and virtualenv globally installed, so pip is not available outside of virtualenv.

2) I know that Varnish is awesome, don't get me wrong. But for the most use cases putting Varnish in front of nginx _doesn't_ add any benefits... nginx on its own can handle pretty much all standard caching use cases, so Varnish is adding only a little of per-request overhead. Of course YMMV ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree, varnish in front of nginx might be a bit overkill. We use varnish because we run apache, and I'm so infatuated with it that I recommend it to everyone. I've seen it pull off thousands of requests a second without breaking a sweat, then again nginx is no sloth either.

We are considering switching from apache, but the current setup works so well that we don't want to mess with it :)

<comment><USER2> Well, if your setup (Varnish+Apache) works for you then there is no need to change it (unless you really need to).

However, recommending this (Varnish+nginx) just leads to more people repeating the same mistake.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Do you need to modify your manage.py?

      source /usr/bin/local/virtualenvwrapper.sh
      workon yoursitevirtualenv
      ./manage.py migrate

Virtualenv changes the current environment variables to use the correct python version. So the shebang in manage.py (/usr/bin/env python) will use the right version and installed packages.

The upside is you can change your python version & packages without changing hard coded paths to the virtual environment you want to use.

<comment><AUTHOR> You don't, if you need to change envs for a single project. Otherwise, there's no reason why you need to type two(/three) commands when one will do...

<comment><USER3> Something for your fabfile (for pushing to production and migrating):

      def with_virtualenv(command):
          "Executes a command in this project's virtual environment."
          run('source /usr/local/bin/virtualenvwrapper.sh && workon %s && %s' % (env.virtualenvname, command), pty=True)

e.g. usage: with_virtualenv('python manage.py migrate')

For your local development, throw the virtualenv wrapper initialization into your bashrc (Only need to do this once.)

      echo "source /usr/bin/local/virtualenvwrapper.sh" >> ~/.bashrc

When you're developing, always start by activating your virtual environment.

<comment><AUTHOR> Why would I need to do that? I can just change the shebang line in manage.py and never ever need to activate the virtualenv...

<comment><USER3> One of the big benefits of using virtualenv is that you can change the environment your code is running within. For example, if I want to test a new version of a package (or a new version of python altogether), I can create another virtual environment and "workon [newenvname]", ./manage.py runserver..., and test away.

It also follows the principal of least surprise. As a developer, if I run a python file, I generally expect it to use the python version in my environment, not some hard coded path. This is exactly why manage.py references python in the environment (/usr/bin/_env_) and not a direct path to the python executable.

It's easy to switch virtual environments and unexpected that I'd have to change code.

I could be wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Thank you for posting these. I just started a small project with Django this weekend, and this neatly answers a few of my niggling questions (like "how should I actually migrate data if syncdb doesn't modify tables?" and "how do I manage virtualenvs in deployment?"

:)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, I'm glad you found it useful!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Please let me know if we've forgotten something, we'd love to add some more info.

<comment><USER5> So are you versioning the env/ directory (which as I understand it is located under your project folder), or just dependencies.txt?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, I should clarify. The env dir is not versioned, since its entire state should be in dependencies.txt. Thank you for that observation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> These articles always seem to leave out the biggest question: "how can I reload my code without having root access and restarting the web server".

<comment><AUTHOR> If you use mod_wsgi, you can just touch the .wsgi file. I think uwsgi supports reloading when the code files change, too.

<comment><USER7> I think the mod_wsgi thing might only work in daemon mode.

If you're in sufficiently dire straits, remember that switching to Linode and becoming root yourself is always an option.</comment></comment></comment>


XRIT Decoder for GOES Satellite - brian-armstrong https://usa-satcom.com/xrit-decoder-for-goes-satellite/ <comment><AUTHOR> Skip to the end: > The streamers, actual GUI application, including the ingestor and supporting libraries are free, however the core DSP is not and must be licensed. The cost is $100 USD for this license.

... well, okay then.</comment>


Ask HN: Any good books on graphing/charting/visualization? - <AUTHOR> My day job has me working on a project that has vast amounts of data available in tabular form, but no way to analyze the data except to search it and display it in more tables. Pages and pages of tables.
I'd love to build a way to query the data and display the results visually, and I'm looking for books that demonstrate various techniques for visualizing data that (in many cases) is quite complex. Right now, my experience doesn't really extend beyond basic pie/bar/scatter graphs.
I've heard amazing things about Tufte, but looking at the previews of his books on Amazon they seem mostly focused on artistic presentations of information - something a marketer or analyst would create manually, not dynamic charts generated from terabytes of data. Is that the case? Does it still have useful information for the sort of thing I'm doing, or can anyone recommend something more suitable? <comment><USER2> Edward Tufte's book The Visual Display of Quantitative Information is a monumental book. He writes not about how to make your graphs look pretty, but how to display vast quantities of data and distill them down into useful graphics that communicate themselves effectively.

He provides examples of good and bad graphs, but more importantly, explains what exactly it is that makes those examples good and bad, and further generalizes it so you understand how to make good visualizations. If you don't want to shell out the money for it, it's probably at your library (remember those?).

Additionally, if I were you, I'd stay way from statistical approaches to displaying information unless you have some background or are willing to learn about it -- it tends to be highly technical and is probably too complex for what you're trying to do. Basic stats might help you, but not as much as Tufte will.

<comment><USER3> > Edward Tufte's book The Visual Display of Quantitative Information is a > monumental book.

Agreed, its absolutely excellent. Thanks to Y Combinator for listing it in the book list.

> Additionally, if I were you, I'd stay way from statistical approaches to > displaying information...

Not agreed. In my opinion you might have missed what I felt was a main point of that book: Always learn the appropriate statistics required to understand the data, choose a correct visualization method to communicate those statistics effectively, and once you've understood it fully, confirmed the results, and removed all the cruft, then publish it.

<comment><USER2> What I meant was to shy away from approaches that are PURELY based on statistics if you have no background in it, because it can get overwhelming quickly.

Of course, if it's worth it to invest the time required to have a fundamental understanding of statistics, by all means do so -- but if this is a one-time or a short-term project, I'm not sure the time commitment is worth it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hm... In my experience, that's the best part of projects, is being able to learn something new while doing them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I do a lot of charting for financial services software. The best practical book that I've found is _The Wall Street Journal Guide to Information Graphics: The Dos and Don'ts of Presenting Data, Facts, and Figures_. Simple but practical guidelines for displaying pie/line/area graphs.

But for your situation, check out some of these sites which focus on more complicated graphing techniques:

<http://www.perceptualedge.com/examples.php>

[http://blogof.francescomugnai.com/2009/04/50-great- examples-...](http://blogof.francescomugnai.com/2009/04/50-great-examples-of- infographics/)

<http://interface.fh-potsdam.de/infodesignpatterns/news.php>

<http://patternbrowser.org/>

[http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/15-stunning- examples-...](http://webdesignledger.com/inspiration/15-stunning-examples-of- data-visualization)

<http://www.tableausoftware.com/public/>

</comment><comment><USER5> I would highly recommend learning R (<http://www.r-project.org/>). It is very easy to directly query databases and R has many visualisation packages, including the awesome ggplot2 (<http://had.co.nz/ggplot2/>) based on the grammar of graphics. I'm writing an R graphs cookbook and my startup's visualisation product is also built on R (see profile and feel free to email me if you need any help).

Also, look at Ben Fry's Processing books (<http://benfry.com/>). Here's an introductory tutorial - [http://blog.blprnt.com/blog/blprnt/your-random- numbers-getti...](http://blog.blprnt.com/blog/blprnt/your-random-numbers- getting-started-with-processing-and-data-visualization)).

If you're familiar with Python, check out Matplotlib (<https://www.packtpub.com/matplotlib-python-development/book>).

<comment><AUTHOR> Any experience with Incanter? Supposedly it's a port of R to Clojure, and since I love Clojure and everything else is already running on the JVM I'd lean towards using it as opposed to another standalone program if it's any good.

<comment><USER6> I have used it, but as a warning I'm not an expert user of R, Clojure, or Incanter. Incanter is very pleasant to use, because I personally much prefer coding in Clojure to R. The R language is powerful, but I don't find it obvious at all. You can also use Processing from Clojure if you need to roll your own charts, in addition to the very capable charting library that's already there to handle most routine visualization.

That said, Incanter is immature compared to R. If Incanter does what you need, it might be a great fit, but R has a huge community and list of libraries right now. There's an R to Clojure bridge, but if you don't yet know R I'm not sure it's very helpful.

Finally, Incanter is developing at a break-neck pace. Even if it doesn't do what you want today, it might tomorrow. Literally. I'd love to see the user base grow, because Clojure seems like a perfect fit for statistical computing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Tufte is great, but he's extremely heavy and a bit dated. He is about 80% brilliant 20% completely missing the point. It's very strange.

If you are looking for a smaller book I've found the WSJ Guide to Information Graphics by Dona Wong to be pretty decent and pretty straight forward, and it's about 100 pages. It's not too focused on finance either, although that's what I got it for (I do front end development for financial analysis company - lots of charting).

[http://www.amazon.com/Street-Journal-Guide-Information- Graph...](http://www.amazon.com/Street-Journal-Guide-Information- Graphics/dp/0393072959)

<comment><USER8> I second this. I found his books interesting, but a sizable portion of the content is opinion rather than facts that are demonstrated via studies and the like. They're fun to look at, and there's a few important principles in them, but they're more of a coffee table book than a real reference.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I would check out Visualizing Data - <http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514556>

Also, I enjoy this site <http://flowingdata.com>.

<comment><USER10> Visualizing Data is a good choice, but I would also suggest you note the recent string of critiques of content-free visualization on flowingdata and start out with Tufte if you are new to the field.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've read The Visual Display of Quantitative Information by Tufte, and I think it would benefit you even though you are not talking about manually generating charts. For example, he talks about how it's easy to be misleading with a chart based on how you calibrate the axes, which is something you'd still need to do even with dynamically generated visualizations.

</comment><comment> j-g-faustus The Tufte books are brilliant. For dynamic charts, his first book (The Visual Display of Quantitative Information) is the most relevant, it covers the theory - how to tell a good representation from a bad one - and the basics.

Readings in Information Visualization ( [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Readings- Information-Visualization-I...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Readings-Information- Visualization-Interactive- Technologies/dp/1558605339/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271259347&sr=8-1) ) is a collection of papers covering a wide range of techniques for a wide range of tasks.

Apart from that, it's mostly a matter of picking up interesting ideas wherever you find them. flowingdata.com is nice, same with <http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/>

<comment><USER7> Information is Beautiful is great for fun stuff, but there are a ton of bad practices on that site, it's not for serious infographics. Be careful copying from it unless you are really able to tell where he's having fun and where his charts are serious (because he's very capable of both).

<comment> j-g-faustus Agreed. I was assuming that you have read your Tufte :) and can tell informative visuals from those that are primarily pretty or entertaining.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Leland Wilkinson's "The Grammar of Graphics" [http://www.amazon.com/Grammar- Graphics-Leland-Wilkinson/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Graphics- Leland-Wilkinson/dp/0387987746) is also excellent and fully implemented in the R programming language/statistics package ( [http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data- Analysis...](http://www.amazon.com/ggplot2-Elegant-Graphics-Data- Analysis/dp/0387981403/) )

</comment><comment><USER13> If you're big on visualization check out Harvard's www.CS171.org. I'm enrolled in the class right now and it's been very enriching. I think it is also available as opencourseware.

Books: <http://www.cs171.org/syllabus.html>

Resources <http://www.cs171.org/resources.html>

</comment><comment><USER14> Most of these (rather good) suggestions revolve around learning the theory of representing data. But how does one practically accomplish these visualization tasks?

I have been delving in this area for the past couple months, and even though I am still learning, I will give my practical suggestions to the programmer:

1) First accept that there is no silver bullet to data visualization. You pick the tool that makes the most sense. Sometimes you have to write a Java program, sometimes a Python program, and yes, even sometimes an Excel spreadsheet. Don't be picky--just get it done.

2) Programmatically speaking, there are ways to represent truly massive terabyte datasets.

\- You can learn Processing (used by Ben Fry in Visualizing Data) which is based on Java and pretty simple to learn. My caveat is that you can't run these scripts server-side, that is, it doesn't generate jpgs or pngs on demand due to headless mode constraints.

\- You can use Beautiful Soup in Python to easily modify XML data for SVG graphics. Check out this: [http://flowingdata.com/2009/11/12/how-to-make-a-us- county-th...](http://flowingdata.com/2009/11/12/how-to-make-a-us-county- thematic-map-using-free-tools/)

\- You can learn Java's image library (I haven't done this so I can't really give any advice, but this is what Processing simplifies I think)

\- You can use Excel to easily pump out bar/pie/line graphs

\- You can use the Google Chart API

\- You can use Flash. Check out AmCharts for that Mint-y goodness.

3) Learn statistics. Browse the Netflix Prize forums. Struggle with MatLab or R or Octave. You need to learn how to efficiently handle large datasets in memory to better sift through the essential information you need. For very very large sets that absolutely cannot be handled in memory, you'll want to check out Hadoop + MapReduce. Check out Cloudera's distribution for Hadoop. Handling data is every bit as important as visualizing it.

</comment><comment><USER15> I had a similar situation except that I wasn't as smart as you to consider books in the first place.

But, I did use some really good tools. I highly recommend using Prefuse (yes, it's java but it ships with great examples and it's open source). If you like prefuse, then try flare (actionscript based). As far I know, prefuse supports querying from tables (my data backend was postgres). Here's prefuse: <http://prefuse.org/> Here's flare:<http://flare.prefuse.org/>

And for a dash of inspiration and more ideas: <http://www.visualcomplexity.com/vc/>

</comment><comment><USER16> Fun fact - Tufte's in Arlington giving a talk and we're taking a 15 minute break right now. Compelling speaker and thrilling read (he's giving away four of his books to every attendee).

<comment><USER17> I attended a one-day seminar of Tufte's one time and agree that it was pretty good. But he was by no means "giving away" his books; they were built into the (considerable) price of the event. I also recall being amazed at how many people showed up. This was in a large hotel ballroom in SF and we were _jam packed_ in there.

Another fun fact: when he couldn't get his first book (VDQI) published the way he wanted, he mortgaged his house and published it himself. Respect.

<comment><USER18> FWIW, compared to similar seminars I thought the price of Tufte's was very reasonable - IIRC, shy of $400, and includes $160 worth of books. I also thought the class was quite good, BTW.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If you are considering using Python, Beginning Python Visualization ([http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Python-Visualization- Transfo...](http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-Python-Visualization- Transformation-Professionals/dp/1430218436) ) seems quite good to me. It is of course a niche product targetting though who intend to use Python though. If you are looking for a more broad based grounding in visualization it is probably not your best choice.

</comment><comment><USER20> To me it sounds like you want to be using a tool like Matlab or matplotlib in python to automatically generate various types of plots from your data. There are a wide variety of books about Matlab, and I don't really know one better than the rest. For python, there's "Beginning Python Visualization" by Vaingast. It's pretty introductory, but provides good starting points. The matplotlib web site also provides a gallery of example plots with code.

</comment><comment><USER21> Please keep in mind color blind people. I'm red/green blind and about 1/3 of the charts I run across are meaningless to me. Here are a couple sites with info: <http://wearecolorblind.com/> <http://www.vischeck.com/>

</comment><comment><USER22> A colleague says great things about Cleveland's "The Elements of Graphing Data." It talks about how to leverage the way people perceive graphs in order to convey information. I've flipped through it, and it's on my to-read list. Sorry I can't say more about it.

</comment><comment><USER23> Has anyone had a chance to check out "Beautiful Visualization: Looking at Data through the Eyes of Experts"

(<http://j.mp/9SxXza>)?

It was just published today according to Amazon.</comment>