What To Learn About Negotiation From Marissa Mayer's Compensation Package - <AUTHOR> http://www.thedailymuse.com/money/negotiating-success-what-to-learn-from-marissa-mayers-compensation-package/

<comment><USER2> "Perhaps just as important as your total compensation are the intangible benefits you'll receive when you take your new position. Those intangibles should include access to and opportunities to join teams or committees that wield real power. A word to the wise: That will typically not include the hiring or diversity committees, both of which can end up being more akin to social work than to business governance.

On the other hand, being appointed to management and finance committees will permit you to take part in making the firm a success. And in return for achieving that, most committee members are well-rewarded monetarily and given positions of even greater power and authority."

Maybe at shitty/big/dumb companies. Not at startups or competent large tech companies.

Hiring at a company like Google or Facebook is clearly one of the most important functions, and even more so at a startup. In contrast, finance (at a software company, or any company without real capex) is probably bullshit/make work for people who need to be on it (CFO, etc.) and idiot climbers without real skills in the line of business. (It likely involves buildings and facilities, maybe headcount as given from other groups, and stupid finance tricks like lines of credit, fundraising, etc.)

Probably the best way to identify the things a company cares about is to find the functions founders handle personally. At Yahoo! for some reason this was "number of servers purchased per project" (which required Filo's signoff), which is probably why Yahoo! is a crappy doomed company. At Facebook, I've read that Zuck takes a deep personal interest in anything involving Newsfeed.</comment>


When does a physical system compute? - <AUTHOR> http://arxiv.org/abs/1309.7979 <comment><USER2> I don't see what this paper is contributing other than the assertion that a physical system needs to functorially agree with the mathematical model that represents it. And that if that model is Turing complete, or represents some useful subset of computational functionality, then the physical system "computes." The fact that a sitting rock does nothing but sit is a perfectly fine, albeit severely limited, computational system (it even satisfies their definition of a computing physical system!). All of this just seems...obvious.

It looks like their definitions are so general that they don't answer their own questions, which by their main motivations (section XI) are fundamentally problems of construction and scale. It's not enough that there exists a theory that proves your physical system computes, you have to know the representation explicitly and be able to scale the system arbitrarily. [Edit:] The problem being that this doesn't show up in their actual definitions.

Maybe I'm reading it too shallowly, though. Can someone who's more well-versed in the background of this paper explain it better? It also doesn't help my confidence that they seem to completely ignore the rest of computer science (mentioning Turing machines only as an aside, and as part of a false assertion about (quantum) Turing machines being the only universal logical systems).

<comment><USER3> _The fact that a sitting rock does nothing but sit is a perfectly fine, albeit severely limited, computational system (it even satisfies their definition of a computing physical system!)._

It does not fit their definition because the whole point of the paper is that a physical system is not computing anything unless an entity is using the system to compute something by encoding the problem into the state of the system and later decoding the answer from the state of the system.

<comment><USER2> I'd like to compute the identity function. Let me denote by 1 the presence of a rock, and 0 the absence of a rock. I'll set up the problem (the input) by placing a rock appropriately, and after ten seconds, I'll check to see the if a rock is present. If so, the output is 1, otherwise it is 0.

This is a theory, a valid interpretation, highly reliable, scales well, and it commutes. Why isn't it a computation by their definition?

<comment><USER3> Now it is a computation because you are the computing entity that encoded a problem into the system and later decoded the answer. They paper essentially establishes the distinction of a system just evolving under the laws of physics and using this evolution to compute something by assigning an interpretation to the state of the system. I could use the same stone to compute something different, for example the boring trajectory of a stone placed on a surface in a gravitational field, but without specifying what you are computing the stone is not computing anything.

<comment><USER2> This seems more philosophical than scientific. How can you use such a distinction to do anything new and useful?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Two somewhat-related-pointers for people who decide that they're curious about these things:

* a light and nice read: [https://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/project.archive/general.arti...](https://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/project.archive/general.articles/1998/SimConEx.98.html) (an oft-cited article)

* the madness of Max Tegmark: [http://arxiv.org/abs/grqc/9704009](http://arxiv.org/abs/grqc/9704009) , [http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646](http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0646) (cliff's notes: "The [...] postulate in this theory is that all structures that exist mathematically exist also physically, by which we mean that in those complex enough to contain self-aware substructures (SASs), these SASs will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically ``real'' world." Which means: take [http://xkcd.com/505/](http://xkcd.com/505/) , and abstract it enough times so that you decide that the rocks themselves _are not needed anymore_.)

-> if anyone has any comments about the MUH, would be interested to hear them. My head is kinda-still-aching from the last time I tried to decide how seriously I should take his ideas.

<comment><USER5> Wow. This is epic. I totally had this exact idea a few years ago -- that every mathematically possible universe physically exists, with some probability distribution. I was thinking maybe the probability of finding yourself in a given universe is related to the length of the computer program that runs that universe. And also, of course, to the probability of intelligent life evolving in that universe (a formalization of the anthropic principle).

It's always neat when you discover you've independently invented an idea proposed by someone famous :)

Although, to be fair to Tegmark, he goes further than I ever did: "The predictions of the theory take the form of probability distributions for the outcome of experiments, which makes it testable." This is a natural consequence of the form of the theory, but I didn't really think in that direction -- but now that Tegmark's pointed it out, it seems like an obvious direction in hindsight.

<comment><USER4> I totally know what you mean!

I've been recommending this book left and right around these parts, but can't hurt to say it again: you should probably read "Permutation City."[1] As far as literature, character development and style goes, there is nothing much to it. As far as (hard-ish) scifi goes, it's a big deal. In a way, what MT calls MUH Egan calls "dust theory" (roughly). It's a very interesting exploration of the whole idea, and it involves cellular automata, etc etc.

There's also a short story of his, "Wang's Carpets" (which you can read online[2]) - it was later incorporated (as a chapter) into his book "Diaspora"[3] (which is _also_ a great read that I've thoroughly enjoyed.)

> _Although, to be fair to Tegmark, he goes further than I ever did: "The > predictions of the theory take the form of probability distributions for the > outcome of experiments, which makes it testable."_

I wonder, though, if this is not a bit of a stretch. I certainly understand what he (and you) mean by probability distributions, but it seems to be there because he _really wants_ to be able to call it a "scientific theory," which requires it to be falsifiable (<=> testable.) But, yeah, it's pretty neat!

> _I was thinking maybe the probability of finding yourself in a given > universe is related to the length of the computer program that runs that > universe._

 _Now_ , can some of those programs run a (say, finite-tape-version-of) Turing machine[4] (can some of them not run it)? Does this have any implications (re: / in relation to the halting problem, for example)? I don't have the faintest idea. Tegmark has a thing to say about mathematically incomplete (in the Godel sense) universes, but again, I'm not sure how much of it is just him having fun. ;) (which is the best way of having fun, as far as I'm concerned.)

...anyway. Good stuff! Let's try and not go insane within our heads with these things. Then again, some insanity is always a _good thing_ , imo.

 _edit_ P.S. there's also [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computation- physicalsystem...](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computation- physicalsystems/)

 _editedit_ P.P.S. if you haven't, maybe also read the (very) short story of Borges, "The Library of Babel."[5] It's basically an articulation of the idea that a "description" of a universe _is_ that universe. And a "description" can very well be thought of as a program. And if you imagine a multidimensional "computational-symbol-space," a "path" to that program/description (first choose this symbol/predicate, then that one..) _is_ that program (and, by extension, "kinda-is" that particular universe.) These ideas are not new in themselves in the very least. e.g. I'm still yet to try and honestly delve into Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason," which actually addresses some of that stuff (in its own very particular vocabulary and context.) Also, lots of stuff to read from the theoretical CS side of things. And mathematics (Yoneda lemma in category theory, and other things which I like to pretend to understand!)

[1]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City)

[2]: [http://bookre.org/reader?file=222997](http://bookre.org/reader?file=222997)

[3]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_(novel)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaspora_\(novel\))

[4]: a good read (and/or rehash) on this: [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing- machine/](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing-machine/)

[5]: [http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.htm...](http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is a question I've wondered myself. I once read a bit about someone using live crabs to perform computations -- a group of crabs behaves deterministically (enough) to make a series of logic gates that can be used for (very slow) computations. Since reading that, this has been a question on my mind.

(source) [http://www.gizmag.com/crab-computer- kobe/22145/](http://www.gizmag.com/crab-computer-kobe/22145/)

<comment><USER6> For me, the next natural question is this:

if a brain can be simulated by any turing-complete system with enough memory, and a bunch of crabs can comprise a turing-complete system...can a bunch of crabs arranged properly into trillions of logic gates produce consciousness?

<comment><USER7> Yes, they can. And they actually do, in a sense. There was recently a thread on HN about lots of ants behaving as a one intelligent entity although a single ant is very dumb: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551)

The discussion 'evolved' into evolution (of systems). It's strange that this paper discusses computation also as evolution, but I'm not sure if they mean the same thing. I also suggested that human brain computes (or thinks) by 'simulating' evolution. In this case, your individual brain cells would be like those bunch of crabs, just doing their business and producing thoughts as a whole.

<comment><USER8> You seem pretty confident about that; how could you possibly know if a collection of crabs produces "consciousness"? That's not even the same sort of thing as ants dropping pheromones, which is trivial to model on a computer.

<comment><USER9> You seem pretty confident that _you_ are conscious, but I've seen no conclusive evidence. How can a person possibly know if a collection of brain cells produces "consciousness"? What brain cells do is definitely not the same sort of thing as the inner life of my experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> In cognitive sciences there is a dispute about the nature of cognition and what scientific tools to apply. Some say cognition is computation, others say its just behavior of a dynamic or connectionist system. A good sumary of aspects can be found in Fresco, Nir, 2012 - The explanatory Role of Computation in Cognitive Science, Minds & Machines, 22, 353-380.

The discussion is quite interesting, because computation is very hard to define. Understanding what makes a system compute can yield useful insight for understanding cognition.

<comment><USER11> I think people like Jerry Fodor define computation as the manipulation of logical symbols by some algorithm. The idea is that you use a standard functionalist analysis (see someone like Putnam 67) to analyze the inputs(X) and outputs(Y) of a cognitive system. So you have (schematically) something like: X->?->Y. Where the "?" defines the project of cognitive neuroscience (i.e. figuring out the physical instantiation of the manipulation of intercalated proteins & neurotransmitter). So, in this picture cognition is not a "state" that needs to be defined a priori but a "black-box" process that needs to be spelled out empirically. At bottom, stuff is continuous, not discrete.

But too much ink gets spilled over this philosophical issue. It seems much more fruitful to analyze the mind as a Turing machine (contentious) and apply computational complexity theory to define limits on human computation based on the hierarchy-- my two cents.

<comment><USER4> Re: Fodor, Folk Psychology, and the Language of Thought hypothesis, obligatory link to Paul Churchland's retort :)

"Eliminative Materialism and the Propositional Attitudes": [http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/08/Chu...](http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/08/Churchland-Eliminative-Materialism-and-Propositional- Attitudes.pdf)

Basically, a critique of the approach of formalizing thought processes as (first predicate, or multipredicate, or whatever kind of) logical computation (of symbols.) It's a good read even if one thinks that the overall debate is pretty fruitless.

<comment><USER10> Thanks, I'll give it a read! I don't have a definite stance on the topic but I am aware that a lot of people are making a lot of points on this - indeed - very philosophical topic. I often lean back and enjoy the discourse, it is very good entertainment :) I am far away from pointing it out as fruitless but I can definitely understand why many cog-sci folk would thinks so (often depending on their background, really). I particularly liked what Tim van Gelder wrote on dynamicism, although I don't agree with it and he appears to have a poor view on the connectionist perspective.

<comment><USER4> Hmm, maybe it's high time I gave an honest re-read of [http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/connectionism/](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/connectionism/) \- last time I glanced at it, it gave many sparks and inspiration to delve deeper into things. And lots of good pointers. So I guess I can recommend doing the same thing. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm surprised the authors didn't cite the (in)famous "Do Dogs Know Calculus?" article [1] when they ask whether a "dog catching a stick" is an example of computation.

[1] PDF link: [http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/Q550](http://www.indiana.edu/~jkkteach/Q550)

<comment><USER2> I was surprised to click on a "PDF link" and get the ugliest, most retina- scalding HTML page I have ever seen.

<comment><USER13> You've been 'fuchsiarolled'. That really does hurt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> My question:

When does a physical system reach a "halting state"?

This question has led me to some confusion when considering the possible isomorphism between physical systems and turing machines.

<comment><USER15> The halting problem is solvable for a program which is known to use finite memory. It's only unsolvable on a Turing machine because Turing machines have infinite memory.

<comment><USER14> Right, but how do you define the halting state for a physical system? A stable state? No free energy left? Is it arbitrary?

<comment><USER16> It is up to the person claiming that the system can be interpreted as a Turing machine.

"If we view these parts of the beach as the tape, and all crabs being in a state described by these rules as corresponds to halting, then this crab population can be seen as a Turing machine!"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Furthermore, is time quantized? If it's not quantized, are universal changes atomic? Or do they dopple? (At the speed of light?) This would mean that a clock cycle of universal change takes (length of universe) / (speed of light)

I think that time being quantized, would beg the question, are universal changes atomic locally, or globally?

Our perceptions are clearly operating on universal change, so our sense of time is as well. These are quite deep questions.

</comment><comment><USER18> Can't we define the universe as the computing system, the state of the universe at t=0 as the encoding of the problem into the computing system, and the state of the universe now as the decoding step? As far as I understand it, the framework presented doesn't explicitly permit the computing entity to be inside the computation.

</comment><comment><USER19> I've thought this for a while now. The only reasonable definition of computation is in relation to other systems. It's good to see this popping up other places than inside my head :)</comment>


Java on Visual Studio Code Update – August 2020 - <AUTHOR> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/java-on-visual-studio-code-update-august-2020/ <comment><AUTHOR> Welcome back to the August update of Java on Visual Studio Code. In this update, we will focus on performance improvements and project management. On to the update.</comment>


Ask HN: Would you accept a distant interview with no travel reimbursement? - <AUTHOR> I've spoken to a couple recruiters today who say it's uncommon for companies to reimburse applicants for travel, even if they have to get a flight from another state.
It's always been my personal policy that if they don't pay for travel, I decline the interview. These recruiters are ever so slightly making me wonder if I'm being entitled, although I don't really think I am.
What's your position on it? <comment><USER2> If they want to pay you a decent salary, travel reimbursement is within the single digits percentage range of that. If they are not willing to pay <10%, what shows you they are willing to pay 100% of a decent salary?

edit: additionally, by displaying that you are willing to foot the bill for travel, you are showing that you are desperate, which is something they can further leverage in your negotiations _IF_ they ever even consider you.

<comment><USER3> This is exactly right. You don't want to signal that you consider this even remotely acceptable (unless you have no other options—in which case I'd suggest maybe you're underselling yourself).

Source: hired dozens of engineers, interviewed hundreds of engineers

<comment><USER4> As Marx put it, "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

<comment><USER2> Seems there's a lot of animosity directed towards Groucho on HN..!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Those recruiters are actually telling you "this is a company you don't want to work for". I had this happen once after grad school. Guy wanted me to drive 10 hours one way, pay for a hotel ("isn't there someone you can stay with?" There wasn't), and drive back all in my dime. It's not normal, it's not reasonable, and you should just end the conversation right there. It will only get worse.

Let's go down this hypothetical route where you accept to do something so ridiculous. You drive a ways or fly in, you get the hotel and you go back, all in your own dime. You've effectively just invested hundreds of dollars into this _interview_. They might already be planning to fill the position with an internal candidate, who knows? Maybe they're just feeling it out. Or maybe they want you, and maybe they know they have a garbage offer. Well now that you're emotionally committed to this on some level because of the money you spent, you're more likely to commit more than you otherwise would have. In poker I think they call it "pot committed" when you have a weak hand but you've already put so much into the pot that you feel compelled to "win back" what you've already lost, so you bet more. Same principle. This is really, reallt shitty psychological manipulation.

I don't think I need to say more. If that isn't enough to convince you then I'm afraid you might need some coaching for how to stand up for yourself ;)

</comment><comment><USER6> > I've spoken to a couple recruiters today who say it's uncommon for companies > to reimburse applicants for travel

I mean, that's just a lie.

Even before you consider whether they do it or not, everyone else in this industry does so they're just lying.

If they company won't do something as simple as cover your travel costs, and the recruiters are lying to your face, then unless you have no other option I would block these people and forget they exist.

<comment><USER7> He is right that it is rare that companies will reimburse because typically there is no reimbursing to do; that is, they book all of the accommodations similar to how they would for employee travel and relocation assistance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> _I 've spoken to a couple recruiters today who say it's uncommon for companies to reimburse applicants for travel, even if they have to get a flight from another state._

That does not jibe with my experience at all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's more common for a company that expects you to fly, to buy the ticket for you up-front.

And as others have said: if a company expects you to pay for your own travel for a long distance interview, they're just outing themselves as a company that you _don 't_ want to work for anyway.

Personally, unless in an actual situation of pure desperation, I'd skip on pursuing any "opportunities" with companies that behave this way.

<comment><USER9> Exactly. If a company won't pay for travel, they are indicating they aim for the most desperate, thus in general the less capable and less well established. They do not aim for excellence but tend towards indentureship.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Over 10 years ago I had a similar offer - I was one state away (~500 miles) and the company did not want to pay for travel. They were interested, and I was interested, and I had other travel taking me to the region, so about a month later I showed up and we did the interview. Several months later I was given an offer and accepted - but I had exactly your reaction, "if you (employer) can't pony up $120 for a plane ticket....". in the end it worked for me, but I still take that as a major red flag, if the employer will not pay for travel to interview, then they have not properly vetted and phone screened you to determine they want to take any time to seriously consider you.

When I conduct interviews as an employer today - I do assessment on location because fit ends up being very important. Where a person is coming from, what social networks they have, interest in the climate and region play huge in long term retention and it is often much easier to take the time to hire locally if possible to increase quality of fit in the organization. in many cases this is not possible - and you have to import as you don't have excess talent (at your price point) in the region.

<comment><AUTHOR> > interest in the climate and region play huge in long term retention

You're a smart guy. In my experience very few people consider this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I don't expect reimbursement, I expect the company to buy the tickets and pay for the hotel room upfront. Ground transportation and meals are negotiable, I suppose.

<comment><USER12> I'd be fine paying for the small stuff, but if they're unwilling to pay for a significant chunk of the costs, that means they're taking no risk at all on this interview, while you're carrying all the risk. You're fully committed, they have no commitment at all.

They can afford to invite you on a whim and then not hire you, and it costs them only the time of the interview, while you're paying the full cost as well as a full day or more of your time. A more equal division of those costs would be more reasonable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> > I've spoken to a couple recruiters today who say it's uncommon for companies > to reimburse applicants for travel

I've literally never paid out of pocket to travel more than an hour for an interview.

</comment><comment><USER14> I've been on a few interviews in my life where it required flying from my home state. The companies always paid for a plane ticket up front. I've even had interviews that required a few hours of driving and they paid for parking, gas and even a hotel room once I provided receipts.

Funny enough and sort of messed up, _but_ , I went on a local interview earlier this year where I drove 30 mins to meet the person for coffee. I paid for coffee because the company credit card declined and that was his only form of payment. They offered me a 60 hour a week coding job for $30,000/year because they felt the work wasn't complicated and didn't require my c++ skills even thought their current code base was c++. They wanted to make no changes to the c++ code and start adding functionality using Python as "most college kids learn Python" and "would be happy to accept such a great job". I declined. I received a call from the CEO asking me why, they were really impressed. I said the salary was an insult and it was advertised as a $90,000/year job. He replied that he only takes $40,000 as a salary and the $90,000 figure was to attract interest, hoping to find someone who believed in the companies goals and would work for less money with the future hope of more. I suddenly had someone knocking at my door...

</comment><comment><USER15> I wouldn't accept a distant interview I had to pay for at all, much less one I wouldn't be reimbursed for. That's the interviewing company's responsibility, open and shut.

</comment><comment><USER16> I've been flown to interviews at least a half dozen times over the years, mix of startups and big companies, every time travel (flight+hotel+meals) was covered as a matter of course. I would absolutely turn down an interview where they weren't paying for travel, it suggests they are not serious about the process.

</comment><comment><USER17> No reimbursement, no deal.

In general, I avoid situations where the other party has nothing to lose when/if they waste your time. Example: Online tests before you even talk to a manager.

</comment><comment><USER18> I paid for my own travel for an interview once. I wasn't happy about it but I thought it would be a good excuse to visit a new city for the weekend. I'll never do that again.

The cheapskates that wouldn't pay for travel offered me a job but the salary was so low it wasn't even worth negotiating.

</comment><comment><USER19> Even fresh out of college with very little to offer (in a different industry than tech) I was not asked to do this. It sounds like you're dealing with some shady recruiters, and that's a shame because there are some good ones out there. I only got my start in tech because a recruiter advocated for me to get an entry level gig. That gig was several states away and a series of online interviews plus several code examples sufficed.

</comment><comment><USER20> Here in town, I'll drive, and I won't charge for the gas. Ditto for the next town over (40 miles).

Plane travel? On _my_ dime? For something where they can decide on a whim not to hire me? Absolutely not. Forget _that_ noise. Ditto the hotel, and meals while I'm there.

I've flown out for job interviews a few times. I have _never_ paid. If I had to, well, no thank you. I'll look for a different job.

</comment><comment><USER21> No. That's ridiculous. If they want to hire you remotely they can interview you remotely. Unemployment is at an all time low, so employers are competing for the best. If they can't afford a an interview I imagine there may be more issues at hand

</comment><comment><USER22> I've never had to pay for transportation to an interview - even rideshare/cabs are typically paid for. I would outright reject any company that tried to make me pay for my own airfare and lodging for an onsite interview.

</comment><comment><USER23> That's just lying. I received reimbursement for every single interview I've had. Some companies might also give you a small stipend for spending or meal reimbursements while away from home, but at least reimbursing the cost of traveling should be included. I've also had a company that's literally ten miles away from where I live willing to reimburse me for Lyft rides to and from the office.

That said, I've only ever interviewed for companies in the tech industry and the financial industry. It's possible that companies in other industries are different.

</comment><comment><USER24> Remember recruiters work for the employer. That said, do you live in a place where you are likely to find a job? I ask because there is possibly some nuance here. In general I would interpret this signal as others here are saying and agree with their reasoning. Well not 100% as I would think it would be a stupid company that spends excessively traveling candidates they haven't interviewed via video conference first. But say I chose to live in the sticks several states away, I would not then expect every employer to cover travel for my interviews.

</comment><comment><USER25> I had a company try to hire me internationally. This was on the strength of a close friend's internal reference and persistence over months. I wasn't looking. After some phone calls with their senior management I finally agreed to travel to an interview and they agree verbally to pay travel expenses. When I was half-way there - having put substantial money down to fly internationally with a family of three - they cancelled the interview and backed out. No apology. Killed the friendship.

</comment><comment><USER26> Not unless I had plans to go to that area that week and somehow felt like doing an interview in the middle of my holiday (not likely).

Of course, given I'm in a major capital city where all the jobs in this country are located (London), the only interview that would require traveling to a distant location would either be one in a foreign country that required a visa or be a bad choice to take up anyway. So yeah, unlikely it'd come up.

</comment><comment><USER27> Nah don't do it. When people were far away, I interviewed them remotely, multiple phone interviews and video conference. That's enough to hire someone. If I needed you to see you in person, then I would eat the cost if I'm the one that approached you, unless you were the one who approached me for a job that I posted locally.

Those recruiters don't care about you, they only care about their commission.

</comment><comment><USER28> It makes sense if the position was advertised for local candidates only. In that case, you'll have to do what it takes to be similar to a local.

Otherwise, that's just crazy. For a position that is offered to non-local candidates, the company should pay for travel and lodging at minimum. Food would be nice too.

</comment><comment><USER29> No. If a company does not think you are worth paying for travel then they do not think you are worth it at all.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm happy to pay if I have an offer in hand and it's up to me to decide whether to finalize the paperwork (e.g. onboarding interview), but not for something that isn't guaranteed. If they aren't satisfied with a video or phone interview, they had better pay to have me come out.

</comment><comment><USER31> No; maybe if I was a junior who was really desperate and could afford the expense, but not at this stage.

</comment><comment><USER32> Self respect. Why spend hundreds of dollars for a company you shouldn't wanna work in?

</comment><comment><USER33> Those recruiters are incorrect - if a company doesn't want to pay for travel, they will/should do a hirevue/skype interview remotely instead. If they want you to be there in person, they'll pay for you to be there.

</comment><comment><USER34> Nope. I suppose if I really wanted to move to a particular place and they could group them together with a lot others I'd consider it.

</comment><comment><USER35> No way, those are scumbag lowball recruiters.

</comment><comment><USER36> Also, find better recruiters.

</comment><comment><USER37> Sounds like a scam.

<comment><USER38> Honestly, it sounds like the "recruiter" may not even be arranging an interview with an interested company. Perhaps they are trying to get gullible clients to fly in on their own dime to interview with _the recruiter_? As other commenters have noted in large numbers, this is not normal operating procedure for any real company, and thus my intuition is they are not offering an interview with a real company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Nope.

</comment><comment><USER40> No</comment>


All it takes to steal your face is a special pair of glasses - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/823820/carnegie-mellon-made-a-special-pair-of-glasses-that-lets-you-steal-a-digital-identity/ <comment><USER2> Shouldn't this be called, "All it takes to _protect your face from theft_ is a special pair of glasses" ?</comment>


Microsoft needs a new CEO who probably doesn't exist - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/microsoft-needs-a-new-ceo-who-probably-doesnt-exist/ <comment><USER2> That person exists and he works for Microsoft, he is Qi Lu. He took on Google in many fronts in a short amount of time: technology, product, infrastructure, and people. Was it the right thing for Microsoft to do? Who knows, but he successfully executed on a project that most reasonable people (myself included) considered almost completely impossible -- which happens to be exactly what people expect out of companies like Microsoft.

</comment><comment><USER3> "... the consumer space and enterprise space are connected and become more so. Microsoft needs to be strong in the consumer space to remain strong in the enterprise."

Not at all true. Cisco, Juniper, Oracle, EMC, Netapp are strong in the enterprise with virtually zero consumer presence. Or am I missing something?

<comment><USER4> Microsoft has a positive feedback loop running between its enterprise and consumer operations. Kill one side and the other becomes irrelevant.

<comment><USER5> Close. Not exactly irrelevant, but the profit margins will suffer as the failure of overlapping lockin schemes force Microsoft to actually invest and innovate in the area they don't abandon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I agree with the article that Ballmer probably loved Microsoft too much. That extreme enthusiasm is likely behind famously awkward moments like screaming on stage, or laughing at the iPhone.

To manage for innovation, one has to be willing to say "wow, compared to that new thing, our stuff sucks." It just never seemed like Ballmer thought that way. He seems like the type of guy who perceive a thought like that as disloyalty or something.

<comment><USER7> The thing is, most of their stuff don't actually suck.

Take Windows Phone. It's a great OS. The only problem is that it came too late and had poor marketing (and was associated with the uncool Windows brand). Technically, it's awesome and in the same league as Android and iOS.

The same is true for Xbox, Windows 8, C#, SQL Server, ASP.NET MVC/API, Azure, etc.

Google or Apple would build the exact same products, and people would probably love them.

So no, I don't believe that Ballmer's love for Microsoft (especially recently) was unjustified. He simply failed to account for the negative popular perception of Microsoft and its brands.

<comment><USER5> While the OS may be good, it's lack of software and accessories ecosystem require Microsoft to make it more compelling than either iOS or Android - which it isn't (it's about par).

The same inertia that keeps Windows popular is preventing Windows Phone from gaining significant marketshare.

You would think that, of all companies, Microsoft, the abuser of platform lockin, would grok this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'd like to imagine Scott Forstall in this role. Wicked smart. Architect of an os that completely revolutionized the mobile market, a space that microsoft hasn't even made a dent in, despite having a massive head start in (Windows CE anyone?)

If Mayer could be plucked from Google to engineer a revolution at Yahoo, and Forstall was in the running to be Apple CEO ... I think its worth a thought, the question is ... would he accept?

<comment><USER9> Forstall was never in the running to become CEO after Steve.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> What about David Sacks?

[http://www.fastcompany.com/3007336/creative- conversations/wh...](http://www.fastcompany.com/3007336/creative- conversations/what-microsoft-ceo-steve-ballmer-told-yammer-cofounder-david- sacks)

<comment><USER11> When Jason Calacanis interviewed him at Launch Fest in March, Jason suggested David could & should be Ballmer's successor, ASAP. David politely dismissed the idea, but it seemed to me that the notion wasn't completely foreign to him or that he wouldn't be interested in such a thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> There is one CEO that has extensive experience and a proven history of effectiveness in Microsoft's type of business. He is called Bill Gates. MS only has to find the right enticement that will bring him back; one always exists. I am sure a returning Bill G. would do for MS what a returning Steve J. did for Apple.

<comment><USER13> Bill Gates is loving his half-retired half-philanthropist life and has all the money he would ever need. I don't believe there is a single thing that would entice him to return to Microsoft. And I'm not even sure he would be the right guy for the job.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Call me pessimistic but I am not actually sure a CEO can do anything. The face is that taking on a corporate culture in a place like Microsoft is a big and long-term task. It takes not only vision and talent but a light touch with the whip and a heavy hand with the spade.

<comment><USER15> In warfare, they say that the same army can behave radically differently under different types of leadership. The philosophy tends to percolate down the hierarchy pretty fast. I'm reminded of how Orson Scott Card said that part of _Ender 's Game_ was inspired by the struggle to find a general who could lead the Union army during the civil war (not sure why I mentioned that -- it felt relevant).

<comment><USER14> I am not sure that armies and corporations are that similar in this regard. I was working at Microsoft as a blue badge when Gates retired from the position of CEO and there was effectively no change in corporate culture.

To the extent they are similar, I think there is something to be said about faith in leadership. If the workers don't trust the leaders and vice versa, that has an immediate impact in this sort of thing, but beyond that, it is the interpersonal connections that have developed that define corporate culture.

<comment><USER16> I too was a blue badge during that time, but I think there were three changes that happened when Gates slowly faded out of the company. The company lost focus on Windows desktop applications, the culture pivoted towards business strategy instead of engineering strategy, and quality of both the people and the products declined.

As to losing focus, part of this is because the re-orgs and company policy changes accelerated. At least every two years in the last decade there has been a major shift in branding or focus. This is something decided by the management team, and Ballmer was directly responsible for these constant shifts in direction.

Second, the role of SDE and senior SDE was even more marginalized. I am sure this had been going on, but for a data point note that BillG reviews were run by PMs. The engineering culture was gone and replaced by a business culture. PMs and MBAs ruled every org; they talked about their resources and looked at the SDE-L and SDE-M as line managers whose were there to make their designs reality. This served to push out the more motivated engineers.

And speaking of BillG reviews, these were real and helpful. After a review, we would talk about it for days. Products would be re-aligned, schedules would change, and we would be focused on shipping a great product. When these were gone, Ballmer's business strategy approach failed to motivate or align the teams and that had a drastic affect on quality.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> >A better route might be to look for another Steve Ballmer, but without that salesman's overconfidence.

This reminds me when I mentioned on HN that "I wonder what would be good professional management that is as close to general purpose as the old MBAs."

</comment><comment><USER18> My bet is that MSFT buys Nokia and Stephen Elop becomes CEO.

</comment><comment><USER19> They probably don't want me, else they would have Microsoft Linux, totally open and free, the paid version of course would offer more.

</comment><comment><USER20> He does exist. His name is Gabe Newell. He just doesn't want the job as his happy running his small little company: Valve.

<comment><USER21> I was thinking Simon Peyton Jones. He just doesn't want the job as he is happy working for MSR.

<comment><USER22> SPJ doesn't work for MSR anymore and I'm having a hard time imagining him being happy running a company like Microsoft.

<comment><USER23> > SPJ doesn't work for MSR anymore

Interesting. Where is he now? His MSR page hasn't been updated - [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/people/simonpj/](http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/simonpj/)

I thought only Simon Marlow left recently.

<comment><USER22> Oh blah, you're right. Bloody Simons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The Ars comments mentions two co-CEOs as a solution.

<comment><USER5> So something like RIM? Oh, wait, they ditched the idea. Or like SAP? Nope - same thing.

The co-CEO idea is great in theory, but obviously lacks real-world backing, for obvious reasons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm available.

</comment><comment><USER25> They're reorganizing to hire Steve Jobs (they never got the memo).

</comment><comment><USER26> I dunno, but I think I'd make a great CEO at Microsoft. Lots of things they do could be great products if someone would actually pay attention to the details and implement a forced eating their own dog food policy.

<comment><USER27> Actually I think the eating your own dog food policy is actually holding Microsoft back as internal products no longer need to compete with external ones which increases developer and project manager myopia around what is and isn't important to end users.

<comment><USER27> A good example is how similar TFS is to internal product like source depot and has failed to provide many of the features of other version control systems or project management systems.

There's more to life than feature parity but really TFS lacks some basic should haves and almost no one realizes this at Microsoft because they've never used any of the alternatives.

For a fun time try suggesting the team use Git or an Atlassian product and see how far things get. *this might almost actually work on the entertainment division. Most other divisions probably not.</comment></comment></comment>


Wasabi Launches the Industry's First "Unlimited Free Egress" Cloud Storage - <AUTHOR> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/wasabi-launches-the-industrys-first-unlimited-free-egress-pricing-plan-300616512.html <comment><USER2> So, what happens with highly disproportionate egress per amount of storage (think public image hosting/video hosting services). I personally ran a service with only 500GiB of data which would push 10TiB+ of egress per month. Would they get suspended? I actually don't like this change since it makes me distrust wasabi (they no longer seem to be able to guarantee a sustainable pricing model)

<comment><USER3> Their minimum charge is for 1TB ($4.99/month per TB). Their pricing FAQ says: "Wasabi's hot cloud storage service is not designed to be used to serve up (for example) web pages at a rate where the downloaded data far exceeds the stored data or any other use case where a small amount of data is served up a large amount of times." See point 3 in the following page: [https://wasabi.com/pricing/pricing-faqs/](https://wasabi.com/pricing/pricing- faqs/)</comment></comment>


Visual Studio for Mac - <AUTHOR> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/mt790182.aspx <comment><USER2> Since this was an accidental post (now removed) in advance of the actual announcement and release, we've buried this story. That way we can avoid treating the actual announcement as a duplicate when it happens.

</comment><comment><USER3> So Microsoft is treating the Mac more seriously as a professional platform while Apple is treating it less seriously? I'm not saying this in a snarky way; I mean it literally as a change of corporate strategies in both companies. Microsoft seems to be saying, If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work, we want to do a better job of empowering you, and Apple seems to be saying, If you are a pro mainly using the Mac for professional work, you need to get used to the idea that we are deemphasizing your market-- no hard feelings.

<comment><USER4> Meanwhile, a "pro" user who's _actually used_ the new Macbook Pro weighs in:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one- prof...](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/thomas-grove-carter/one- professionals-look-at_b_12894856.html)

Spoiler alert: he doesn't agree with the assessment of HN users who haven't actually used it.

<comment><USER5> That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody." and your post is a good example for the no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _really_ used it dislikes it."

All I really know about this is how I feel about it and I must admit that I am going to go back to the PC world when the time comes to replace my current MBP. The offerings in the PC world are not perfect for me but they suit me better. I bought my MBP because at the time it was actually the cheapest machine offering all those features at a high build quality. I didn't get into a dependency on OSX and am pretty confident that I can just migrate fully to Linux. So I guess I'm not _really_ a professional Mac user.

<comment><USER4> _That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody."_

99.9%+ of criticism of the new MBP has been of the form "Without ever interacting with one, I can tell it is unsuitable for me and therefore is unsuitable for anyone, anywhere, in any professional purpose, ever".

 _no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _really_ used it dislikes it."_

More like "people are pre-emptively concluding, without ever having so much as been in the same room as a new MBP, that it is the antithesis of everything they need from a computer".

Which is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. I've suggested in the past that this feels less like "I have legitimate criticism of this product" and more like "I hate the manufacturer, always have hated and always will hate the manufacturer, and see this as a convenient cover for venting my hatred of the manufacturer". Notice how much of the criticism veers quickly away from specific aspects of the product and into "this is classic Apple", "this is how Apple treats users", "this is what's wrong with Apple", "Apple abandoning a key segment again", etc.

<comment><USER6> I don't care about the touch bar and while I'm miffed about the magsafe I can deal with shelling out extra for accidental damage insurance. Personally my disappointment is with the specs which no time with the machine will change.

The mac I'm currently using was purchased 3 years with 16GB of RAM and if I replace it I will be stuck with the same capacity. I imagine there are a lot of "Pro" market segments that are well served by 16GB or less though. I'm hoping the next revision gets a >16GB capacity and it's released before I need to replace this one.

<comment><USER7> I've spent the last 4 years doing development from a 2012 macbook air with 8 gigs of ram. Its been totally fine, except when I've got a million chrome tabs open. (Declaring bankrupcy and closing them all at once feels great though.)

The posted article is about a mac version of visual studio. Coincidentally, visual studio only runs in 32 bit mode and hence can only make use of 4 gigs of ram total: [https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ricom/2015/12/29/revisiting...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/ricom/2015/12/29/revisiting-64-bit- ness-in-visual-studio-and-elsewhere/)

The article is worth reading. They (correctly) have kept asking "why _does_ VS need more ram than that?" and just optimize the code when the footprint grows bigger.

And I'm genuinely confused by all these people complaining about 16 gigs of ram not being enough. If you have a laptop today with 16 gigs of ram, have a look. Do you actually run out of ram while working? (And if so, what on earth are you running?). It looks like its genuinely hard to fill 16 gigs without chrome or slack running. Look at all the stuff you can fit in that much ram: [https://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=6355](https://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=6355)

I'm also a big fan of pushing app developers to fix their cruft. Maybe in 2016 its not ok to have apps that suck up as much ram as possible. Maybe app developers shouldn't write super inefficient software just because next year we'll have bigger computers anyway. Maybe if you're writing software (any kind of software) that really does need more than 16 gigs of ram to work effectively you should fix your shitty code instead of demanding everyone buy new computers. The atari 2600 had 128 _bytes_ of RAM, and played all sorts of cool games. The original X-Box had 64MB of ram and ran Halo. Maybe its not apple's fault that your fancy 3d graphics program can't work properly in 'only' 16 _gigabytes_ of ram. (Especially given there's 2 gigabytes/second of SSD bandwidth available on those new machines. Yummy!)

I love the fact that the new machines are small and portable. The hardware is more than capable of doing everything I need it to do. The only barrier to all day battery life now is crappy software.

<comment><USER8> Talking about VS for Windows, that's the maximum footprint of the VS main process. If you use one of the WP8/W10M/Android emulators, then you need an additional 1/2/3 GB for the VM (plus overhead). Throw in some browser tabs, git (in VS15 it will be in its own process instead of eating up the main process' memory), some .NET Native/LLVM, the OS itself and you'll find that having 16 GB will give you quite some comfort

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Page has gone. Other people (buried in the comments) have posted the google cache of it, but here is it again for visibility:

[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-9psscJ:https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/magazine/mt790182.aspx)

Maybe a Feature Request for HN, would be for a 'alt' link (that mods update) as part of the clickables under the post title?

<comment><USER10> Since popular HN submissions will often hug the site to death, a nice feature would be to automatically check the top 3 caches (archive.org, Coral, Google) immediately on submission, _before_ the page goes live on HN. If the cache doesn't 404, the content could be quickly parsed to check it matches the submission and, if so, automatically include the cache link at the top of the submission page.

This would save people manually posting these all the time and would, in many cases prevent the case where it becomes impossible to retrieve a cache, because nobody thought to access one before the slashdot effect occurs. Or, as in this case it seems, the article is pulled.

It would also be nice if, 24-48 hours after submission, the only cache link remaining is archive.org (if they have the page), so the content is retained permanently as-submitted. It's rare, but sometimes a page will be updated so the comments no longer make sense.

It would also be nice to include a link history in the same area (have requested this before), in case the original submission is changed by the mod. Usually when this happens the notice is the top comment, but sometimes it isn't and the discussion can be quite confusing as a result.

<comment><USER11> Or, they could just have a live link AND a cache link and let people click what they want. A story with a cache link is likely to be upvoted more, encouraging people to do it.

<comment><USER10> I wasn't suggesting only displaying the cache link, but rather providing a list of alternate links (if available - not all sites allow archival, or the cache might be stale) so they are always there at the top of the page.

It's not exactly clear what is best netiquette regarding linking because larger sites that rely on advertising and can handle the traffic will welcome more clicks, but smaller sites would rather be cached. Better for HN not to encourage or discourage either, but give both options and let the readers decide.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> So as for now it is the rebranded and polished Xamarin Studio - hopefully, they have improved it's usability as in the past it was pretty lacking compared to VS 2013/2015

<comment><USER13> As I understand it, Visual Studio for Mac is simply a re-branded Xamarin Studio and will continue to be. It includes the improvements they had planned for the next release but I doubt they will do a rewrite.

I actually prefer Xamarin Studio over Visual Studio (on Windows) in some respects. For example, the Xamarin.Forms XAML previewer is much better. Looking forward to a full designer.

P.S. I've got a four part blog post series this week on Xamarin.Forms. Starting with this today: [https://unop.uk/cross-platform-native-mobile-app- development...](https://unop.uk/cross-platform-native-mobile-app-development- options)

<comment><USER14> I just started looking into Xamarin Forms and couldn't figure if it was just blindly typing xaml or there was a way to preview it. Thanks for the posts.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, for now you have to type the XAML but a designer is coming. There is a preview of a previewer but I couldn't get the one in VS to do anything. The XS previewer did work for me though. Make sure Android Studio / ADK is updated if only iOS is working.

<comment><USER15> I've only tried in VS so far. I'll check XS. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm glad to see more Microsoft dev tools on other platforms but don't lose sight of why this is happening. Microsoft is shifting their business to the cloud. They make their money off Azure and other services. In other words, they are making their money mainly off of developers now and its in their best interest to get on the good side of devs which is why they suddenly have a vested interest in open sourcing tools and helping Mac/Linux. Given the love and lavish praise I see heaped on Microsoft in every thread they do something it's clearly working. I'm not saying don't praise them when they do something good but don't be deceived into thinking they are doing it out of good faith.

<comment><USER17> > don't lose sight of why this is happening. Microsoft is shifting their > business to the cloud.

Why is this a bad thing? Microsoft is a company, they exist to make money. A huge new market for them is 'Cloud' and they're doing everything they can to make that as appealing as possible.

<comment><USER18> If you want to be the tallest tree in the forest, you can take in the most water and sunlight to be taller than everyone else, or you can chop down all the other trees so you're the only one standing.

Back when they made money from selling operating systems, they were definitely doing some tree chopping with some of their practices.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Most interesting part for me:

"""For the functional programmers among you, it includes excellent F# support, powered by the same F# compiler used in Visual Studio."""

I've heard that F# is great from multiple people I trust a lot (and a quick cross check showed it does indeed look very cool) so I might give it a try once this is released.

I do some C# development (Unity Engine stuff) on my Powerbook so this is also good news (MonoDevelop is fine but I'll obviously test VS for Mac)

<comment><USER20> F# is well supported by Visual Studio Code (with the Ionide plugin) too if you want to try it sooner.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Interesting, but I can also see some risks with their approach. Now they have three different Visual Studios with completely different technology stacks.

1) Visual Studio for Windows (C++, I assume?)

2) Visual Studio Code (Javascript, Atom)

3) Visual Studio for Mac (C#)

<comment><USER22> Hmm I have been googling for the last 15 minutes to find the difference between visual studio and visual studio code and cant seem to find a concrete answer. I thought yours was actually a hint at what it is aimed for but when you go to:

[http://code.visualstudio.com/](http://code.visualstudio.com/)

it actually says it supports c++,c#... I still dont get what the difference is..

Having only ever developed on linux I am actually slightly excited to use an IDE like visual studio after seeing some people at work use it..

<comment><USER8> Visual Studio and Visual Studio for Mac are IDEs written in C# and they support C#, C++, VB.Net and many other languages.

Visual Studio Code is a text editor built in TypeScript and based on Electron. It supports a broad range of languages, but it's an advanced text editor, not a full fledged IDE

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I can't recognise this new Microsoft. It's basically as if this was a new company wrt. Open Source and competing.

<comment><USER24> They now want to be Oracle in place of ORCL.

<comment><USER25> Except if rather deal with MS's software... Everytime I touch anything from Oracle, I plan on a week of frustration...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is great news! I _was_ a c# developer for many years and absolutely loved it. But then I gave up the Microsoft ecosystem 7 years back just because it felt like a lock-in and also a bit backward compared to non-MS tech.

But in the past one year, Microsoft has got me in again: a. Moved to TypeScript from JavaScript (including my hobby projects) b. Moved to VSCode from Sublime c. C# is a great language and I just hate Java. Hope this and more steps make it easy to use C# and deploy in non-MS environments.

<comment><USER27> C# is a lot different today than it was 7 years ago. You might be in for a shock. The nice thing is you can develop it today as you did 7 years ago, but with heavy use of lambdas and var, it reads almost like another language.

<comment><USER28> 7 years ago was 2009. var, lambdas, and linq were already in pretty heavy use by then. The biggest change since then is the dynamic language runtime, but I don't really see that used much in c#.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This is nice of course, but without C++ support it has very little appeal to me.

I don't want to learn C# to write iOS apps. I might learn it just for fun, but I will continue writing the iOS apps with Swift/Objective-C and C++.

C++ support is the weak spot of Xcode and so far I haven't found a suitable IDE for C++, except maybe Qt Creator and several IntelliJ-based IDEs, which are ok but not on par with Visual Studio on Windows.

I keep a windows machine around mainly for writing C++ code (and games!).

<comment><USER30> Why don't you want to learn c# for iOS / Android development?

<comment><USER31> It's not iOS / Android development, it's Xamarin development. Not really the same thing.

<comment><USER30> It's still c#...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Microsoft just continues to amaze. Never thought I'd see this...

</comment><comment><USER33> Where's the download for Preview? It's not in [https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads/](https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Probably won't be available before the Connect conference next week (November 16-18).

 _> At Connect(); in November, Microsoft is launching a preview of Visual Studio for Mac._

<comment><USER34> Ouch. Sounds likely, but I went looking too :(

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> > _At its heart, Visual Studio for Mac is a macOS counterpart of the Windows > version of Visual Studio._

Does it have a monolithic install and update process that's essentially a slow, bloated black box? That's my main turn-off with Visual Studio on Windows, and even more so with Windows itself.

As soon as Microsoft figures out efficient installation and updates via CLI without the need to reboot, they'll dominate the developer space (and perhaps server market, where reboots are even more problematic).

<comment><USER36> A smaller and componentized install was a major focus for Visual Studio 2017. There's some more detail here: [https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2016/08/22/vis...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2016/08/22/visual- studio-15-preview-4/)

Smallest install is 500MB

.NET/C# install is ~3GB

I also believe you won't have to reboot with most installs.

<comment><USER35> Nice, I totally wasn't aware of that. It's good to see VS finally headed down the right path in that regard.

<comment><USER37> At a presentation at NDC or something Scott Hanselman did a bit where he pretended that he'd forgotten to install VS. Then he proceeded to install it live in the presentation, in less than a minute I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> It is based on Xamarin Studio. I work with XS on OSX last 3 years. Unfortunatelly, Xamarin Studio has a lot of issues with performance, refactoring, it crashes from time to time.

I think it will be better to wait for release of Project Rider. At least EAP is already available

<comment><USER37> Waiting for it to bring core support then I'll be trying it

<comment><USER39> Core support (ASP.net Core) was added more than year ago in the form of addin.

Other project types were added recently and I haven't tried them yet, so I would not like to speculate.

[https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/magazine/mt790182.aspx](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/magazine/mt790182.aspx)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> For a moment I got all excited and thought they had ported WPF to OS/X.

<comment><USER41> I get the impression that WPF is pretty much on life support.

<comment><USER42> It is my belief that Windows Forms will outlive WPF and/or XAML. Currently WPF is still the "modern" way to doing Windows applications, but at some point Microsoft will come up with some new scheme, and all the WPF developer will jump onto that.

The developers that have still not abandoned WinForms will not jump shit when the next thing hits either. To keep the huge group of WinForms developers happy, Microsoft will continue to support and develop Winforms. For many, WinForms are still the fasted way to develop simple applications.

So if you want develop for the Windows (desktop) platform, WinForms will be a clear winner for many many years into the future.

<comment><USER43> Except that WinForms doesn't work on UWP applications other than via Project Centipede and is officially on support as it was communicated at BUILD 2014.

<comment><USER42> Of cause. My point is that so many business applications are Windows Forms, and will continue to be so for many years to come.

Removing WinForms will disenfranchise a large group of developers, that for one reason or another, it could just be stubbornness, won't switch. Microsoft will sooner kill of WPF than WinForms, to not lose those developers. At least that's my belief.

But we're talking for desktop applications only.

<comment><USER43> I only use Windows Forms for legacy applications.

As for the official statement, here is the InfoQ overview of BUILD 2014.

[https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF- QA](https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF-QA)

"Windows Forms is continuing to be supported, but in maintenance mode. They will fix bugs as they are discovered, but new functionality is off the table. Oh, they stress that it isn't called "WinForms"."

As I don't have time to search for the video on Channel 9.

The Roadmap for WPF

[https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2014/11/12/the- roadm...](https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/dotnet/2014/11/12/the-roadmap-for- wpf/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> It's a rebranded Xamarin Studio (MonoDevelop).

I wonder if it will continue to support Android, or if there will be a Linux release.

</comment><comment><USER45> Visual Studio for python is really great. Any hints the Python tools will be ported/compatible with the Mac version ?

<comment><USER46> I'm curious if you've tried Visual Studio Code for Python on Mac?

I've heard good things about it, and just this past weekend tried it out, but couldn't even get a simple Hello World working on it for Python.

I installed the common Python extension for it (Don Jayamanne's), but seems like it couldn't Link with the Python toolset. Ie, I could edit scripts with Python highlighting and autocomplete, but couldn't get them to execute. I gave up after an hour of trying and went back to pycharm.

I'd be interested in giving it another go, but worried if I'm needing to bang my head just for a Hello World, how bad it might get later on.

<comment><USER47> I first tried VS Code for Python programming on the Mac last weekend, made it my main Python editor/ide by now. I found it extremely straightforward to set up, esp. the debugger is usable in a very intuitive way.

Have you set the configuration setting for the python executable?

      "python.pythonPath": "/usr/bin/python",

[https://github.com/DonJayamanne/pythonVSCode/wiki/Python- Pat...](https://github.com/DonJayamanne/pythonVSCode/wiki/Python-Path-and- Version#manual-configuration)

<comment><USER47> Another way to set the Python interpreter is described here: [https://github.com/DonJayamanne/pythonVSCode/wiki/Miscellane...](https://github.com/DonJayamanne/pythonVSCode/wiki/Miscellaneous#select- an-interpreter)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Did the hell just froze over? That is one thing I never expected.

.NET open source and officialy supported on *nix, some version of SQL Server on Linux, cross platform Visual Studio Code editor, now Visual Studio for macOS...

</comment><comment><USER49> Its a shame the UI is not Cocoa but GTK. =(

<comment><USER50> It is also quite funny, think about it, in some situation maybe Microsoft will end up contributing directly to Gtk !

Unbelievable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> This is absolutely amazing. C# has always been a great language, except the .NET ecosystem (sans Mono) has always revolved around Windows only.

Next up, when is VS for Linux?

<comment><USER52> Indeed. I've been using XS on Mac and VS on PC to build a cross-platform product - with shared code for 'core' calculations + view model stuff and dedicated GUI pieces for each platform - for a couple of years now, and I've been sometimes very frustrated by the restrictions of XS compared to VS; it made the Mac side of things much slower to develop. This, and other recent moves by Microsoft with respect to Xamarin, have made me happy (and, yes, somewhat relieved), that I 'bet the company' on this kind of architecture.

There doesn't appear to much demand for our product on Linux - it's targeted towards quite a conservative and on-tech market - but Linux support would also be very welcome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Great News. The only thing missing is Linux support, then I'm sold on VS (again).

<comment><USER54> Since it's based on MonoDevelop/Xamarin you should expect it soon.

<comment><USER8> I wouldn't hold my breath

<comment><USER55> because...?

<comment><USER8> This is mostly focused on Xamarin (IMHO they're phasing out Xamarin Studio), and Visual Studio Code already offers a good .NET Core developer experience

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Interesting move.

I wonder how this will affect Rider (the new jetbrains C# IDE based on intellij, currently in EAP) and if they will continue to invest in Resharper for multiple platforms, or focus effort on bringing the resharper functionality into Rider.

...I also can't help but think this sort of indicates that the C# tooling in visual studio code is being reconsidered; which seems reasonable, I was always disappointed by it.

</comment><comment><USER57> The big question is - can I use it with Intel Fortran? (I am, sadly, 100% serious.)

<comment><USER39> Monodevelop/Xamarin.Studio have really simple addin system and writing addin to support anything shouldn't be big problem.

It is a lot easier than Visual Studio Extensibility system.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Good news and great timing!

I had a four part blog post series on Xamarin.Forms and .NET on a Mac planned for this week. Starting with this introductory post today: [https://unop.uk/cross-platform-native-mobile-app- development...](https://unop.uk/cross-platform-native-mobile-app-development- options)

</comment><comment><USER58> That would be great news if the Microsoft c++ compiler was also part of it. Microsoft has added some amazing, in terms of performance, extensions to c++ lately, like coroutines support, that are not yet part of GCC or clang.

</comment><comment><USER59> This is very good in general. Now if they only could make a version for Linux and get rid of this whole "application barrier" thinking. Microsoft would probably be the only company right now who could fight the walled garden, developer lock-in approach that continues to destroy personal computing.

But if the past holds any indication for the future, then I'm not holding my breath for it. They'll probably just use the Mac version to introduce slight incompatibilities or make the Mac versions of existing products kind of slower and buggier than the Windows versions. :(

</comment><comment><USER33> I will definitely consider it as long as it's not vendor locked.

<comment><USER39> I believe MS claims they are "open source 1st" right now.

Everything made by Xamarin was opensourced in 2016-04/2016-05 under MIT license, so it cannot be vendor locked anymore.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Anyone else reminded of Visual C++ for Macintosh circa early 1990s?

<comment><USER61> Indeed. _smiles wryly_

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> No word on VB.net. I presume MS is trying to quietly phase it out.

<comment><USER8> They said it's based on Roslyn, so it should support VB.net. In the current release of Xamarin Studio for Mac, VB is supported in GTK and console applications, while Xamarin targets only support C# and F#

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> This is a huge step forward, as this means I don't have to buy a new laptop just to work with C# (I've been waiting for Black Friday just for this).

I wonder if this means SQL Server Express is coming as well, but that doesn't matter as much to me since I think Entity Framework takes care of working with a different database engine

</comment><comment><USER64> No C++ support, I suppose.

<comment><USER65> I was really excited until I realized that. A C# IDE on macOS is cool, but damn I would kill for a better C++ experience on Apple. Xcode is ok, but it's code completion is buggy and there is no refactoring support... I've heard CLion is cool but I'm kind of poor and don't have the spare cash for it.

<comment><USER66> CLion is like $8/month. That is the price of a couple of coffees. I think it is worth that IMHO.

<comment><USER67> Pricing for developer tools tend to look more reasonable when you amortize it over the year and put it in Starbucks terms. Same thing for hardware upgrades. There's no real excuse for not investing in good tools.

<comment><USER66> Indeed. Even the full JetBrains package is good value even for a hobbyist programmer. People spend thousands on fishing rods and golf clubs for their hobbies yet when it comes to software they scoff at anything over £30.

Having said that I think a community edition of CLion will be needed in the not too distant future as the competition in the C++ IDE space is improving with VS now free and Qt Creator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> So will it be possible to develop cross platform GUI App using visual studio / ms native frameworks?

<comment><USER69> Let's put this in context. At the moment the main thing that's happened is Xamarin Studio got rebranded as Visual Studio for Mac. If you look up the features of Xamarin Studio you'll have your answer, at least based on the current features.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Wow, i would've loved to see the look on people's faces if in, say, 2002, they could've glimpsed this headline from the future. Nobody would've believed it. How things change!

</comment><comment><USER71> As a lover of VB.Net I am perennially disappointed with how little they seem to care about porting it solidly to other platforms or in general for that matter.

</comment><comment><USER72> Can this cross-compile (and perhaps remote debug) win32 and wpf applications, for example targeting a windows VM? That would be pretty awesome!

<comment><USER8> I don't think so, it's still a MonoDevelop fork

<comment><USER72> Ah ok. So now there are three (four?) completely different products branded as "Visual Studio"? 1. The original, real Visual Studio for Windows, 2. Visual Studio Code (a fork of atom?), 3. Visual Studio for Mac, (4. Visual Studio Express?)

<comment><USER25> VS Code uses electron, but is not a fork of atom... It's actually very fast and fairly nice.. the ui started similar to atom, though I wish I could take back my request for tabs support and go back to the non tabs ui.

This Mac version is a rebadge of Xamerin Studio, with some redesign and tooling improvements.

VS Express is really a stripped down version of VS, and the community edition is usually a better option.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> What is happening? Seriously. Microsoft releasing software to aid Mac users and Apple releasing hardware to hinder Mac users.

</comment><comment><USER74> Now only if they release a Linux version! All the existing IDEs and Editors are not even close to Visual Studio there IMO.

</comment><comment><USER43> This feels like traveling back in time.

I might have still some magazine lost somewhere about Visual Studion and MFC for Mac OS.

</comment><comment><USER75> Soooo... the link was working, now it's not, someone from Microsoft jumped the gun on posting this?

</comment><comment><USER76> They already have Xamarin Studio.

</comment><comment><USER77> So it's an updated version of Xamarin Studio... Not impressed.

</comment><comment><USER78> Ignoring the Apple vs MS thread:

Can Mac users download this or not?

<comment><USER8> Not yet, wait for this wednesday

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> ... and hell froze

</comment><comment><USER80> I'm getting page cannot be found..

</comment><comment><USER81> Broken Link

<comment><USER82> Cached version: [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-9psscJ:https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/magazine/mt790182.aspx+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> Sooner than expected

</comment><comment><USER84> oh wow.

</comment><comment><USER85> Is it just me or did this article disappear?

<comment><USER86> Same here. I get

> We're sorry, the page you requested cannot be found.

<comment><USER85> Same feeling I used to get when the recorded voice on the phone line said "We're sorry". The feeling that no one was actually sorry, except the person getting the message.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> We're sorry, the page you requested cannot be found. :(

<comment><USER88> Same issue here, even on their "Downloads" page [1] it isn't shown available for Mac.

[1]: [https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads](https://www.visualstudio.com/downloads)

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> The posted link is now returning a 404 (as of 7:30AM EDT).

"We're sorry, the page you requested cannot be found."

</comment><comment><USER90> Is anyone else getting "the page you requested cannot be found"?

</comment><comment><USER91> link seems to be down - "We're sorry, the page you requested cannot be found"

<comment><USER92> I think it was an accidental post ahead of official announcement at Connect(); event on 19 November.

Google cached version: [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vk2On-9psscJ:https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/magazine/mt790182.aspx)

<comment><USER91> cool. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> Broken link</comment>


How does Facebook compare to Search? - <AUTHOR> http://boalt.com/blog/2008/10/how-does-facebook-compare-to-search.html

<comment><USER2> We have been using Facebook in our interactive campaigns... and it has been consistently performing well on the post-clicks. And since, this is one of the few sites that offers CPC model, it turns out to be quite cost-effective at the end of the day. So, it still makes a lot of sense to include Facebook in the campaign portfolio (if we look at it from a slightly different angle).

We have tasted higher degrees of success when we tried using Facebook for Branded Application. It has been great channel for promoting advocacy. I guess the most critical success factor is how well we can ingrain the marketing message with the essence of the platform!

(Basis the experience on working for interactive marketing in India and HK)</comment>


Ask HN: Is there an HN style news site for non-tech topics? If not, why not? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Reddit is the obvious one, especially as if you sign up you can get rid of the sub-Reddits that don't interest you or are too noisy (e.g. atheism, politics, world news, videos) and subscribe to only those that suit your tastes.

If you want something a bit more high-brow and substantial out of the gate, however, MetaFilter is a classic example: <http://www.metafilter.com/>

</comment><comment><USER3> Have you tried reddit?</comment>


Genetic Algorithm Explorer - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/nk1tz/explore-genetic-algorithm <comment><USER2> Link to interactive demo, [http://nk1tz.com/explore-genetic- algorithm/](http://nk1tz.com/explore-genetic-algorithm/)

If it meets the guidelines, this might make a good 'Show HN'. Show HN guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)</comment>


Free Office Furniture in Berkeley - Very Solid - <AUTHOR> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/147719/furniture.jpg

<comment><AUTHOR> Our company moved into a larger office and threw a bunch of furniture away. There are a number of great desks and some chairs. Just come and pick it up. Location: <http://bit.ly/cx4jkM>

<comment><USER2> I wish you guys had mentioned this yesterday, we could have planned ahead a bit. Pretty much stuck in Marin for the rest of the day.

<comment><AUTHOR> Didn't know about it. The stuff will be there until tomorrow.

<comment><USER2> Oh cool, will try to stop by then. Thanks.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The very first official United States coin was "Mind Your Business - <AUTHOR> http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/26/mind-your-business <comment><USER2> The reverse of the Fugio Cent shows Benjamin Franklin's design chops: [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Fu...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Fugio_cent_reverse.png/220px- Fugio_cent_reverse.png)</comment>


Ask HN: How Do You Stop Your Mind From Racing - <AUTHOR>

Hi hackernews ever since I was a kid my mind has always been racing.Wherever I go I am thinking about things,physics mainly. It has gotten to the point where I am unable to enjoy anything. I can't relax,I can't sleep, I can't even enjoy a simple conversation. Any suggestions on how to stop my mind from racing. I have been taking Ritalin LA since I was 5 but it has been less than helpful in that area. My doctor had me try strattera and adderal before but it didn't work. No workout only school and programming. I am attempting to meditate on a daily basis, which I have been failing at miserably. <comment><USER2> Work out much? Ride a bike, run, rock climb, lift weights... its a great way to get yourself to meditate while exhausting yourself to sleep better. If I find myself anxious and thinking too much, this is my first answer.

If working out doesn't work, I end up taking a couple of days for myself to build or study whatever it is that had been on my mind.

</comment><comment><USER3> Exercise has been suggested numerous times, and I agree. I'd also add to choose a sport where you have to focus your mind (i.e. not go to the gym or jogging).

I have been doing downhill/freeride mountainbiking and enjoy bouldering right now. Both sports don't allow your mind to wander off - you need to be 100% focused on your body. In case of mountainbiking, a lot of adrenaline was involved because of the risk. I felt that when the mind realizes there are serious consequences from not focusing completely on the task at hand (e.g. when you are racing through trees), it will focus automatically. This hasn't happened to me when going jogging or so - my mind would still be able to wander off.

YMMV, as always. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER4> Given that you're taking Ritalin, the first step would be to bring these symptoms to your doctor's attention. You may need your dosage adjusted, or a need to try a new drug, or try some other treatment (or even stop taking meds entirely, though don't do this without talking to your doctor first). The important thing is to work with your doctor until you've got a solution that works for you; this may take several visits.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks I will try that and exercise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> My non-medical opinion would be to stop taking amphetamines and any caffeine and get more sleep.

</comment><comment><USER6> Rather than meditate (at this stage) listen to brainwave entrainment tracks (Neuro-Programmer 3). That will eventually calm your mind if you just keep playing it.

Also try 1g Niacin, 1g Vitamin C, and 500mg Pantothenic Acid before bed.

Taper off the pharmaceutical drugs if you can.

(I'm curious if this will work for you, so if you try it out, then it would be nice if you post a reply telling me what your results were.)

</comment><comment><USER7> Go get a job, a warehouse job will force you to focus on things other than physics but any job is good. Also go to the gym, it won't help with your mind racing per se, but it will make everything else better.

I don't want to sound snarky, but I think I ought to mention that this actually works.

</comment><comment><USER8> It's less about your mind racing and more about learning how to stop thinking. Being present to the moment. Start guided/mindful meditation. Read eastern texts Tao, ect.

Thinking is important but learning when to get outside your head and be present is much more important.

Read Eckhart Tolle

</comment><comment><USER9> Some kind of meditation practice might be helpful.

</comment><comment><USER10> Ditch doctors (at least the majority), and medication. Read about glutene intolerance and possible connections. Take omega-3 supplements and stop glutene+dairy. Possible that it's just bullshit and won't work, otherwise effects after 30days. Worst case you just become slim and fit.

</comment><comment><USER11> Meditation. Try the Art of Living course, it's amazing.

</comment><comment><USER12> How old are you?

</comment><comment><USER13> What everybody else said.

Personally, I have a series of large Rubiks-style cubes, up to 7x7x7. Scrambling and solving these has become a kind of mental exercise for me that gets me off of the train of thought that I'm on, and it's useful for disrupting constant repetition.

Another thing is rubber ducking ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging> ) which works really well for taking large rambling thoughts and condensing them into small, simple, focused ideas. Don't ramble at the duck. Try to explain to the duck in a way that you feel resembles real communication, instead of ranting.

And yes, exercise.

</comment><comment><USER14> Learn to quiet your mind not by denying but by embracing what's going on. You can become an observer in your own head instead of being caught up by discoursive thoughts… see them as weather.

My #1 go-to recommendation is the AUDIO book (not the written version) of When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. Don't worry if you're not going through what sounds like a crisis… the audiobook is accessible for even minor issues, like "being a human."

[http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart- Difficult/dp/15...](http://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart- Difficult/dp/1590305450)</comment>


10 Ways I'm Going to Improve in 2012 - <AUTHOR> http://startupruminations.com/2011/12/10-ways-im-going-to-improve-in-2012/

<comment><USER2> Oh, do go on.

</comment><comment><USER3> 10 ways we don't give a fuck what you'll do in 2012.</comment>


A Hacker's Introduction to Partial Evaluation - <AUTHOR> http://wry.me/misc/peval.html

<comment><USER2> Great article! Shows how you can get your compiler to be "smart enough" on demand. Illustrates some of the power of lisp and macros.</comment>


Expert Networks: A Secret World of $500 per Hour Consultations - <AUTHOR> https://highestpayinggigs.com/gig/expert-networks <comment><USER2> Hey, that's me, might as well answer questions here.

I[1] do performance tuning for Microsoft SQL Server. The licensing costs on MSSQL Enterprise Edition are $7K USD per CPU core, so a typical single high- performance server costs $250K-$500K. Factor in hardware, multiple replicas (high availability, disaster recovery, scale-out reads) and it's not unusual for a company to have spent millions of dollars on their database server. (I know, I know, you think you can get a 4-core MySQL VM to perform the same. Let's set that aside for now and just focus on the article & the work.)

My basic sales pitch is that in 2 days, I can tell you why your queries aren't going as quickly as you want, and how to make them go faster. It's $5K USD done during the week, $15K weekends. Aside from the Christmas & New Year's weeks, I'm booked out until mid-January (with a couple of weekend gigs already scheduled.) For my clients, $5K is an irrelevant rounding error compared to how much they're spend on software, hardware, staffing, and how much revenue they're losing when their web site or enterprise app goes down.

I don't subcontract, I don't wear suits, I don't network with executives. I just have a very clearly defined product, sample deliverables online, a blog with a couple thousand posts dating back to 2002, and a very active community presence: I present at a lot of conferences. (I'm speaking at Data Saturday Holland this weekend.)

The linked post talks a lot about short calls and canceled gigs, but that's easily avoidable in this market: just require nonrefundable prepayment. In this high-value tier, clients tend to understand that they're buying a specific window on your calendar. If they don't show, I lost that time and can't get it back any other way, so to lock that day down, they have to prepay.

The best resource for this kind of work is the book Secrets of Consulting by Gerald Weinburg. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Feel free to ask any questions you want - I'm really transparent about the business. I'm on vacation in Amsterdam this week so my answers will be a little delayed during the day.

[1]: [https://www.BrentOzar.com](https://www.BrentOzar.com)

<comment><USER3> Do you think it would be cheaper for these clients to build their applications on a cloud, rather than buying hardware?

That's not to say that they wouldn't have optimization problems if they moved to the cloud. But I'm stuck wondering why any company would make the decision to run their own db servers?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I don't do this anymore, due to my employer looking unfavorably towards it, but I was charging between $600-900 an hour for my industry advice on spaces I'd worked in. I could have charged less and done more hours, but I found there was a lot of cancellation and rescheduling and misunderstanding at lower rates, and charging more just limited things to high intent clients.

It was never a significant percentage of my income, but it was a nice low 5-digit uplift a year. Separately I met a guy who advised on a very narrow sector of the energy market and charged $1800/hour a couple of hours a week. The more niche your expertise, the more you are worth.

<comment><USER5> Damn, what segments did you work in? The firm I'm working with maxes out at like $100 an hour.

<comment><USER6> $100/hr is really low in the bay area; most SWE generalist contractors can walk in and get $150 no questions asked, anywhere. $200 if you're more experienced in the specific area and $250+ if you "have a name for yourself" online.

Rule of thumb at least around here is take your base salary in thousands per year, and that's your hourly rate. If you're getting $200K base, charge $200/hr for your contracting time. The extra that yields is to help you offset the fact you won't always have work and the extra you have to do to keep your pipeline full. Many startups pay $150K for senior engineers so have no problem paying $150/hr for contractors.

<comment><USER7> I'm always curious how contractors get hired by startups. Most of my work has been one-off jobs with non-tech companies, and I feel like I rarely see contractor gigs for solid technical startups.

<comment><USER6> Usually through network. Frequently it's people you've worked with in the past that end up at startups, have worked with you before and need your help on something. That'll get you through the door. Management often looks at it as a potential "contract-to-hire" opportunity and if they like you will try and sell you on full-time employment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've frequently been paid $1k/hour regularly for insights on expert networks on how to grow companies, manufacturing know-how that's inherently rare based on my specialty, and more.

I've had companies reach out from all over the world, but I'll tell you, when I first moved to San Francisco, I lived in my car for ~2 months, then in a bunk bed in a run down hacker house, and was more than ecstatic to make 30 USD/hour. This post would be incomplete without mentioning that sometimes it takes many failures in a niche to develop great depth in it.

One area of expertise that regularly has been paying me for 1-2 hours every month for the past few months is new manufacturing plant startups or relocations. I'm one of a handful of engineers with know how and experience in material flows and operations research.

I had one company buy 10 hours of my time and flew me out of the country to help them navigate a facility location based on an ever modulating set of market variables.

When I studied polymer-textile-fiber engineering and operations research though, it was never exotic, I didn't want to work in the middle of nowhere, but was utterly fascinated with the subject matter.

I'm thankful for expert networks, my one qualm is that some networks like GLG etc ask for resumes, but I think that's the wrong approach. I really love sites like clarity.fm where you can just o-auth quickly and tell your story.

Generally, "game knows game" is something I believe in, I also believe marketing and brand don't always correlate with substance. I love finding people with performant dark horse talent who should be paid 1k/hour on expert networks but never pass the "branded" corporate filter of the sites themselves.

</comment><comment><USER9> The actual world of super-high paid consultant would be interesting to hear about. This is either a niche-within-a-niche or a scam, depending on whether you believe the page.

The thing is, maybe there are circumstances when someone who's just quite well informed about an otherwise boring industry can get an "information download" gig as described but I'd also guess those are very occasional - only so many investors need those so often. I suspect most super high paid consultant gigs are even more boring - just super well dressed, super connected, super confident, speaking the language of the ultra rich and describing pretty dull and predictable things, mostly management/investment techniques but communicating the right way to the right people and having some level of connection to them. An alternative is a similar someone except a someone who will to tell the super-rich they're wrong and having enough prestige themselves so these rich don't feel like they've been insulted too badly.

<comment><USER10> "Information download" is a genius term. In the right industry a company can save years of failure by paying the right person for X amount of hours to glean a ton of knowledge very quickly, assuming they can't just outright hire them.

<comment><AUTHOR> Mathematically this probably could never be justified as a permanent hire. Not enough steady demand.

<comment><USER11> It can be justified in the context of hiring that person keeps that knowledge resource from competitors. Then it makes a lot of sense to pay them enough to stay, as it allows you to outpace competition in the marketplace.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> One man's expert consultation is another man's industrial espionage.

</comment><comment><USER13> I've gotten messages on LinkedIn a few times for things like this. One of the biggest companies in this space is GLG ([https://glg.it/](https://glg.it/))

Usually the client is like a hedge fund or private equity fund, and they are trying to get info on an industry/sector to make an investment decision.

</comment><comment><USER14> A family friend was a lawyer and economics professor specializing in competition law and was fully booked at $800/hr. He owned a dozen luxury condos all over the world but had No wife, no kids, and didn't tell his clients when he had cancer, he worked right up to the end.

</comment><comment><USER15> Not to be inflammatory, but this article reads like a clickbait ad. I would take it with a grain of salt...

If it seems too good to be true it often is.

<comment><USER16> Not only that.. if you click on their link to 'expert networks' to talk to.. one of them is apparently completely staffed by 20-somethings that look fresh out of college. Doesn't inspire the idea of expertise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> My firm specializes in MnA IT diligence work. We have so many PE firm relationships and consultants with industry specializations that what we do sounds like a long term version of this. The rates tend to stay up there on through post-close transaction work as well.

</comment><comment><USER18> [https://getwisdomapp.com](https://getwisdomapp.com) is a more user friendly expert network designed for experts if anyone is interested in monetizing their spare time

</comment><comment><USER19> I am finding myself reminded of a lawsuit in Hong Kong over a divorcing couple who were paying their _dance instructor_ millions and millions of dollars. We're talking above ten. Why? because this power couple wanted to rock the world of their elite friends with their chassée turn and tango style.

There are seriously people out there who want what is in somebody's head, legally, and even though you or I might do "wait..what?" the price can go north, if they want it bad enough.

</comment><comment><USER20> I used to get those requests all the time, however I thought they were just advanced sales techniques to seed you with ideas on products or to make you say flattering things about products, followed by a sales guy contacting you.

</comment><comment><USER14> >By the third call I was in beast mode, nailing every question

Was beast mode from doom 2 or quake ? Love it when people Let these little things slip that tell you a bit more about them.

</comment><comment><USER21> Why is this post flagged?

Knowing better ways of earning (more) money is one of the most important things anybody should learn.

This thread deserves a good discussion, and if not that at least criticism.

</comment><comment><USER22> When you get bored with $500/hr:

[https://jonathanstark.com/hbin](https://jonathanstark.com/hbin)

<comment><USER23> [http://www.clickhereyouidiot.com/](http://www.clickhereyouidiot.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> This seems like a brand-new site with only 3 pages so far. Unfortunate.

</comment><comment><USER25> Interesting little niche market.

</comment><comment><USER26> That website though!

<comment><USER27> I like the website. It's simple and loads fast.</comment></comment>


A "Hacker News" for Education - <AUTHOR> http://www.hackeducation.com/2010/08/26/a-hacker-news-for-education/

<comment><USER2> This really appears to be spam for a blog and gradebook software.</comment>