Ask HN: What is the best chair for developers? - <AUTHOR> I'm sitting for 10+ hours a day, what should I be sitting in ? <comment><USER2> 10 days ago, 157 points, over 130 comments: "Ask HN: Best office chair for home office work?"

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095)

</comment><comment><USER3> Anecdata: I have had good results with the Steelcase Leap. It's not cheap, but as you note, you're going to be spending a lot of time in it so this is probably not the place to economize.

I do wish there were more comparative literature on this subject, as it's difficult to find good objective ways to compare chairs.

Here are the Wirecutter's recommendations: [https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-office- chair/](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-office-chair/)

<comment><USER4> Comparative literature? Meh.

I wish there were someplace where I could go and actually _try_ high-end office chairs. Chair preference is going to vary from person to person (which makes written reviews and comparisons kind of useless), but office supply stores like Staples or Office Depot only stock the low end (which may work for some, but don't have the adjustability or durability of higher-end chairs). I'd like someplace I can go to actually try out and compare a few models of, say, Steelcase, Herman Miller, and Humanscale chairs before I commit to spending the $800+ on one.

<comment><USER5> I've been wanting a shop like that in Paris for years.

If you want to try and buy a Steelcase here you have to make an appointment with a sales rep outside the city. I get that basically they don't want to deal with general population but it's kind of infuriating.

<comment><USER6> Same here.

Herman Miller dealers are everywhere, but I hate their chairs. The closest Steelcase dealer is an hour away, but it is worth the trip.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've used an Aeron for close to 10 years, and it's the most comfortable and flexible chair for me. That being said, sitting down for 10 hours in any chair is not healthy.

I added a standing desk to my arsenal, and the routine of moving up and down every 40 minutes or so. Taking brisk 10-15 minute walks at least every 1.5-2 hours is crucial as well.

Core strength and flexibility have become so important to my fitness routine that if I go several days without exercising or stretching properly, I get pretty severe lower back pain.

</comment><comment><USER8> I think your question should be, "should I be sitting so long?"

There's ample evidence that extended sitting, especially relative to the amount of standing and walking, is detrimental to health (especially including weight).

I spent years on the popular Herman Miller Aeron chairs, but eventually I developed lower back problems in my early 30s! So when I left my job and started working from home, I tried the standing desk thing...

Indeed it takes time to get used to standing a lot, but I've been doing it now for the better part of 13 years. Even without proper (or consistent) exercise, I'm more fit than most of my peers. And when I pushed and pushed my finance company to get adjustable height desks, many of the naysayer employees eventually started standing for as much as half of their days.

It's especially good after lunch when you're full and your body wants to just shut down and sleep.

Ikea makes a great, cheap, manual adjustment standing desk. Keep a chair or stool nearby for when you do really get tired. But give standing a try (for more than a few days). Also, get a good padded mat to stand on. You can get a good one for $30.

You back, heart, legs, and mind will thank you.

<comment><USER9> I think that even standing a lot is A Bad Idea. You're trading one mobility problem (sitting with little/no motion) for another (standing with little/no motion).

Moving is better, all the way around. I'm biased I admit... but I think a walking treadmill (like the ones that LifeSpan Fitness makes) is the best all the way around.

<comment><USER8> A treadmill might be ok. I wouldn't object to trying it, but it definitely increases the cost and complexity of a standing workspace.

When I stand, I very rarely just stand still. I shift my weight from side to side, roll slightly onto my toes and back to my heels, and sometimes elevate one foot on a stool under the desk. So my position is never static.

<comment><USER9> I'm not trying to make it sound easy. It definitely took some getting used to. It took me about a month.

Now, I can't imagine going without it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Steelcase Leap. Similar to the HM Aeron, but has cushion instead of mesh, and offers a bit more adjustment. It comes down to a matter of personal preference, but many prefer the comfort of the cushion. Personally, I sometimes sit with a leg crossed under me, or sideways in the chair, just because I like moving around, and the Leap is comfortable in all positions. Before I purchased it, I was having horrible wrist and shoulder pain, but it vanished once I swapped to the Leap. I've owned mine for a few years and it still looks pristine.

I also bought it on Craigslist for $200 brand new, which was quite a steal.

The Leap and Aeron are among the best in class, and it's hard to go wrong with either. Go to an office store and try both for yourself.

<comment><USER11> Most Steelcase chairs are over $1,000 but Wallmart has the V2 for $400.

I wonder if this model is as good as the others, or if it isn't really the same thing.

<comment><USER12> You're likely seeing that from a third-party seller, similar to Amazon's marketplace or ebay. At the least, I wouldn't expect the chair to be brand new at that price.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> In 2011, I went on a search for the "perfect" chair. Want to know what it is? :-) There is not one!

Of course I bought the Aeron because the internet told me to. In less than 8 hours I was really hurting and had to return it. Today, I use something from neutralposture.com. However, what is "best" for you depends on your body type. The most correct answer is "change your chair, sit and stand, move around" throughout the day, weeks, and years of your life. The desk is super important too. I use a very flat desk. I wished it could raise and lower on demand.

Today, I need to change my chair because I've had it for so long. I think you'll only find the perfect chair if you make it yourself. I really wanted a combo of the Aeron and the Neutral Posture 8500 _for my body type and work habits._

I wish I had, but did not, explore all of these options. I wished I had tried the Humanscale. Please do and tell me how it works out for you. Options: Herman Miller, Nuertral Posture, Steelcase, Humanscale.

<comment><USER14> While browsing neutralposture.com's products, I noticed this bullet proof chair. [http://neutralposture.com/_site/guardian.php](http://neutralposture.com/_site/guardian.php)

That's a criterion I hadn't considered.

<comment><USER15> Hah! That's great. In what kind of bulletproof-vest requiring situation is being strapped to a chair an advantage?!

<comment><USER11> You aren't stuck to the chair, the bullet proof vest comes off the chair and so you can take it with you.

Perfect for teachers in a school shooting situation where they can use the chair to block the door and protect the whole class, or put on the vest as they escort their class outside.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The complete question is how to achieve the ideal seated posture and/or maintain it. I like the idea of height adjustable desks for the simple reason that it can be lowered/raised to the exact height that's correct for your build. For ideal posture, your thighs should be parallel to the ground, your back should be straight, and your arms slightly lower than parallel to the ground when you're typing. Ideally your monitor should be at eye level to avoid getting "tech neck" which all suggest having height adjustable monitors and desks, and your chair able to adjust height and offer optimal back support.

It's a really long way of saying that even if there is an ideal, perfect chair for you there's no way that can be a universal recommendation.

<comment><USER17> Ikea sells desk legs that can be adjusted to the right height when you install them, but don't have all the machinery needed to adjust it's height while using it. If all you want is a desk that suits you body, grab a set of Olov legs from Ikea for $15 each and take what you saved and put it towards other ergonomic equipment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I belive chairs are like shoes, everyone fits them differently.

There are great Aeron chairs out there I like. I work from home a lot and I've got a $100 ikea chair that I find plenty comfortable.

Keep an eye out for places that resell used office furniture if you're buying, you can save good money that way.

</comment><comment><USER19> I've been using the same Aeron chair for 17 years. It is robust, comfortable, and fine for long sessions in front of the computer. The value proposition remains quite positive.

</comment><comment><USER20> One of those $10 gym balls from Walmart. It'll make you move around and get stronger. After a couple of weeks you'll be comfortable and a new chair only costs $10.

</comment><comment><USER21> Took me a while to figure it out, but Varier balans by Peter Opsvik is the best for me. It is a bit pricey, at $400 or so, but well worth it in my mind. Already I have purchased three, one for home, one for the office, and one for my father who enjoys it a lot. I am in a chair in front of the computer for most of the day, too. As a dancer, body positioning is important to me, and the varier balans forces me to use good form, one simply cannot slouch in it.

<comment><USER22> I love the Wing balans version. [https://varierchairs.com/product/wing- balans/](https://varierchairs.com/product/wing-balans/)

It's even more expensive, but worth every penny to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Our team has been using Ideon's SitOnIt TR2 task chair for many years and it's a great chair. Before we moved to this chair, I'd been sitting on Herman Miller chairs and I had significant back pain. It's been much better since we moved to the TR2. The mid-back version is what we use. We get the multi- function add-on for it as well (seat back tilt, tension control, back height adjustment).

[https://chairbuilder.sitonit.net//#Task/TR2/_/config](https://chairbuilder.sitonit.net//#Task/TR2/_/config)

The prices listed on their website are much higher than you'll pay if you buy through a store that offers workplace design services. Finding a place that sells them was way harder to figure out then it needed to be, but we finally figured out that the best way to do it was to contact the sales rep for our region. You can find the rep for your region on this page and they'll point you to a retailer.

[https://www.sitonit.net/contact/replocate.html](https://www.sitonit.net/contact/replocate.html)

</comment><comment><USER24> Whatever costs 100 dollars less than an Aeron, allocating what you saved on a gym membership for a year. That's the best use of your money.

<comment><USER25> The best use of his money is spending $100 on a gym membership where he's only going to go once anyway (like almost everybody does)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm a self admitted chair-o-holic.

I have personally owned an Aaron, Embody, Steelcase Leather Leap.

In a nutshell, I found the Aeron the most uncomfortable chair of just about every office chair I've had the pleasure of sitting in personally and at work. It was the right size and it was fully loaded with every top option. I gladly and quickly sold it.

The Steelcase (Leather) Leap is probably my favorite. The Embody is a close though. The Leap I have is leather, so it's very easy to keep clean. The best part about the leap though is not only is the build quality top notch and feels like a tank (and weighs it), is how configurable it is. The sweetest part though is that instead of rocking back like probably most chairs, it actually reclines keeping your rear end in the same place. It's excessively comfortable.

All my friends ended up getting a Leap after trying mine. I got the embody out of curiosity, again I topped it out with every option to make sure it was the best model. It's far superior to the Aeron for me and close to the Leap in terms of comfort, but I do think the Leap wins, especially for longer days or when you just have one-of-those-days.

At work, I had a Mirra, it was pretty nice also, which looking at it, surprised me. Much better than the Aeron in my opinion for just pure comfort. I've had a number of there chairs, from the $50 Staples specials to other big brands. The Leap and Embody are still by far my two favorites.

I kept the Embody and Leap because I couldn't part with either. I let my dad swap back and forth with me since he is now retired and does a lot of Ham Radio contests now sitting at his desk.

Anytime any asks about office chairs and the mention of Aeron comes up though (what would be an office chair discussion without the Aeron mentioned?), I always think of this: [https://dack.com/misc/aeron.html](https://dack.com/misc/aeron.html)

</comment><comment><USER27> I created a thread 10 days ago for this question. Some great responses.

Ask HN: Best office chair for home office work? [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095)

<comment><USER11> Did you buy a new chair based on the recommendations? If you have a new chair what are your thoughts?

<comment><USER27> I have not yet. I'm monitoring craigslist, local yard sales and the facebook marketplace.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> An exercise ball! Maybe it's called a "yoga ball" too?

I say this as a person that has used a ~$400 chair with mesh on the seat and back.

I've had several bouts of sciatica over the last few years, even with a moderately soft chair.

A registered massage therapist recommended an "exercise ball" and I got a Trideer brand from Amazon.

It makes for more small movement, and less/no soreness at the end of the day.

</comment><comment><USER28> This is a highly personal preference, but since you asked...

I've been sitting on a yoga ball for about 5 years and it has relieved a lot of back pain I used to have from sitting long periods programming. I alternate to standing and using a portable laptop platform, it was about $25 on amazon. Not the most sturdy, but it's fine and I don't leave the laptop on it when walking away.

</comment><comment><USER29> I have this:

[https://www.profim.eu/products/category/task- chairs/veris/sw...](https://www.profim.eu/products/category/task- chairs/veris/swivel)

had the same model in the office for two years and was happy enough with it to purchase one for myself. €400 give or take.

</comment><comment><USER30> I like having a standing desk with a tall stool. This way I can alternate between standing and sitting without any obstacles, and my stool forces me to have good posture while sitting. My stool isn't very comfortable (though not uncomfortable), so I actually end up standing.

It's not for everyone, but I like it.

</comment><comment><USER31> I love my DXRacer King Zero. Supremely comfortable.

[https://www.dxracer.com/au/en-au/product/1/gaming- chair/king...](https://www.dxracer.com/au/en-au/product/1/gaming-chair/king- series/oh-kf00-nr-zero/)

</comment><comment><USER32> [https://www.neseda.com/en/](https://www.neseda.com/en/)

Chair re-invented by true IT&Health hackers (freaks) for themselves. Got one, has tooo many features for me to use :) but I love it.

<comment><USER32> [https://www.neseda.com/en/story/](https://www.neseda.com/en/story/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I have a Herman Miller Mirra 2 at home and don't regret the price I paid to get it. I bought it new so I could customize the colors to match my home office. It's a bit cheaper than an Aeron and actually better in my opinion.

<comment><USER34> Same here. I went to a high end office furniture store that seemed to have all of the popular expensive office chairs I've heard of and more. I talked to a salesman (who had a similar build to mine), walked into his office ... and saw a Mirra 2 behind his desk. So I bought it. That was about a year ago and I still love it.

My favorite feature is its ability to let me lean forward into the keyboard but the back follows along and gives full support. Worst problem: it has adjustable arm rests but the side-to-side motion won't lock in place.

I had worried that I'd regret spending so much money on a chair. But it lets me work far more comfortably and longer without losing focus. And since my back doesn't feel torqued when I go to bed I sleep better. It's one of my better investments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> [https://www.neseda.com/en/](https://www.neseda.com/en/)

Chair re-invented by true IT&Health hackers (freaks) for themselves.

Got one, has tooo many features for me to use :) but I love it.

</comment><comment> et-al btw, there was similar Ask HN discussion on home office chairs just 10 days ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20371095)

</comment><comment><USER35> Tbh check out some of the good gaming/racing chairs. They're quite cost effective vs aerons or steelcase and tend to be fairly durable (as gamers tend to sit as much or more than programmers)

</comment><comment><USER36> I use a Steelcase leap, it's great.

I wouldn't recommend buying any expensive office chair without testing them out and making sure it feels comfortable for you.

</comment><comment><USER37> If you want cheap options the Alera Elusion is pretty great and I know a lot of developers who use those gaming chairs that look like car seats.

</comment><comment><USER38> Herman Miller Aeron with a standing desk - I have both at home and at the office. Best chair I've ever owned, and extremely durable.

</comment><comment> V-2 I've been using a kneeling chair for about 3 years now, and I find it great, even though it does take a while to get used to it.

</comment><comment><USER39> Ikea markus works well for me.

</comment><comment><USER40> Obligatory caveat -- everyone is different and different bodies work better with different chairs. With that said, I've had a Secretlab Titan for about a year now and I've really enjoyed it. It's a larger chair with good head/neck support, which was somewhat difficult for me to find as a decently sized person (6'2"). Good padding and very adjustable -- it reclines backwards which is especially nice because I tend to be a sloucher, but reclining a bit satisfies my slouching instinct while keeping my back in a better position. Just my $0.02 though -- you spend almost a third of your life in the chair, it's worth trying different options to see what works for you.

[https://secretlab.co/collections/titan- series](https://secretlab.co/collections/titan-series)

</comment><comment><USER41> Herman Miller Aeron

<comment><USER42> This is the right answer. I got mine for $250 on Craigslist. Some office was closing, so they were selling all of their office furniture. You can find good deals out there. I wouldn't buy new.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Negate poor posture by improving core strength.

Try Kettlebells.

</comment><comment><USER44> Lax-E-boy recliner with lift.

</comment><comment><USER45> Herman Miller Aeron

</comment><comment><USER46> Steelcase Leap V2.

</comment><comment><USER47> An Iron Throne

</comment><comment><USER48> VITRA</comment>


Nasa's Dawn throws light on giant bright spots on Ceres - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/dec/09/nasas-dawn-throws-light-giant-bright-spots-ceres-dwarf-planet <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10709140](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10709140)</comment>


Show HN: Journi, a free travel journal iPhone app - <AUTHOR> https://www.journiapp.com

<comment><USER2> Congratulations on having it available, good luck!

I haven't tried it yet but I've read the site. How are you going to monetise it?

Bug report: FAQ text on Windows with Chrome: [http://imgur.com/bnJYG4V](http://imgur.com/bnJYG4V) (the font is very small and it's not a good type for Chrome in Windows)

<comment><USER3> > How are you going to monetise it?

Also my immediate question. I am willing to pay for a service like this to continue (I love traveling and have been looking for a good app to function as a journal). My first thought was basically, "A travel journal is _really_ important to me now and will increasingly become more important to me. How can I guarantee this work/time/life invested will continue for 40 years?"

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. It's great to hear that you're willing to pay for such a service. If you're interested i put you on our list of testers for freemium?!

<comment><USER3> I'd be happy to test—though my traveling will be limited in the near future (I just finished a summer of traveling).

Edit: just noticed you were located in Wien. Ironically, I spent three weeks there this summer (mostly in Pötzleinsdorf area).

<comment><AUTHOR> We are from Wien that's right. :) Hope you had a great time there! At the moment we are in San Francisco. At least until October.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This looks terrific! I was looking for something exactly like this not too long ago. At that time my parents were about to embark on a round-the-world journey, and it was so difficult to find a simple travel blogging app or service for my mom. In the end I set her up with an account on Medium, but even Medium's carefully designed UX was still too awkward, and she never felt completely comfortable with it.

Note to UX designers: if you want to subject your designs to some serious blast testing, make sure to recruit a few 60 to 80 year olds for your user studies!

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally get your point! Thanks will pass on the UI/UX credits to bbusetti. she is responsible for the design. In fact we really tasted a lot with older people. My parents now use it a lot, as they can also follow via web and email.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wonder how many verticals can be built upon facebook's core concept of sharing thoughts and photos just by carving out a niche and doubling down on it.

I guess this is another instance of the higher level arc of use-case unbundling in the mobile space.

Another recent example would be Product Hunt as unbundled 'show hn'. Food for thought.

<comment><AUTHOR> no doubt, journi is a niche product, as I built it for people on the go. What I saw on FB is that users are tired of people over-spamming their timeline with vacation photos. And other users don't want to share certain things on facebook because the data might be too private or too spammy for others. And last but not least, it's hard to recover important moments on facebook. Moments easily get lost in your timeline or your friends streams and stay there unnoticed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I haven't tried out the app yet but by looking at the landing page it looks like there isn't a way to journal video entries? I've been trying to find a travel journal app that can let me take short snaps and short video updates as I travel.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's right. For the early version we decided not to support video entries. But we are counting every request. And it is on our radar. I like the idea of videos as well. I'd like to know what kind of videos you want to share? How long are the videos you currently make?

<comment><USER6> It's not something I've done but it's something I could see myself doing while travelling more if there was a more seamless way to share/aggregate/organize them. I was thinking more along the lines of candid short videos like "Hey guys we just had a crazy 8 hour ride on a Jeepney from Manila to Banaue and here we are amongst the breath-taking rice fields. Take a look!".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Love the UI and UX, everything is pretty & intuitive.

Is it possible to tag friends who were with me, at each entry? Either through Facebook or Twitter tags? That would allow me to share the moment with friends who experienced it as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! design credits go to bbusetti! Tagging is not possible in this version. But we already started looking into that, as we are working on a feature to collaborate with two or more people on the same trip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Just wanted to say thank you for creating such an app! I hope to use it in upcoming trips!

<comment><AUTHOR> Glad you like it! If you have any feedback then let me know!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> i've been using this! great service!</comment>


Webslug: The hot or not of website performance tools - <AUTHOR> http://webslug.info

<comment><USER2> It's weird that the color for the winner is red and looser green. It's kinda counter intuitive from what we are used to (ex: traffic lights).

<comment><USER3> It just happened to be that the page on the left would always be green, the page on the right would always be red... It doesn't look dependent on winner or loser.

<comment><USER2> Oh, I guess I was unlucky... Still an odd behavior.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Is the submitter the author, or do they post here?

<comment><USER5> I'm the author. I just found out about ycombinator by finding my site on it. So I didn't submit it.

Glad to see it got so much interest. There were literally tens of thousands of people trying it out just a few hours ago.

<comment><USER4> I'm writing a hosted load testing solution at <http://testomatix.com>. It might be nice to cross promote at some point. Maybe something like I recommend your site to see how you stack up to competitors, and you suggest mine for load testing. Drop me a line with your email if you're interested. I'm ebeland on gmail.</comment></comment></comment>


Converting atmospheric carbon dioxide into carbon nanotubes for use in batteries - <AUTHOR> http://www.kurzweilai.net/converting-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide-into-carbon-nanotubes-for-use-in-batteries <comment><USER2> Let's not put asbestos like fibers in everything please: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon- nanotube-d...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-nanotube- danger/)

<comment><USER3> Asbestos is only a problem if you inhale a reasonably large amount of it.

<comment><USER4> There are _two_ (main) kinds of asbestos, what you write is true for _one_ of those two, the other kind you should not be exposed to at all if it is airborne, it is super dangerous (the other is dangerous as well but not nearly as much).

Never ever grind/saw/sand/drill anything made with asbestos in it, just take it apart gently while wearing respiration gear and pack it in plastic, then deliver to a facility set up to handle it (where I live that is the municipality).

If you're dealing with sprayed on asbestos then let a professional company do the demolition, it is not worth lungcancer to save a few bucks and those people will have all the right equipment and will be able to remove it without releasing it into the environment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Why would you use atmospheric carbon? It's incredibly energy-intensive to do so, and there are plenty of far saner sources available.

<comment><USER6> It's for carbon capture and storage, as a mechanism for slowing climate change.

<comment><USER5> A mechanism, maybe, but one so expensive, ineffective, and impractical as to be fantastic.

Splitting CO2 will _always_ require more energy than was released in making it. Where does that energy come from? They say solar panels. Because of course they do. But why would you burn fossil fuels to make energy, then use solar panels to turn CO2 into batteries? Why not just use solar panels in the first place? It would be _far_ more efficient.

Also, we put about 10 Gigatons of CO2 into the atmosphere each year. 2.7Gt of that is carbon. Just how many batteries are you planning on making from that? Does each person on Earth need half a ton of batteries?

Who's absorbing the astronomical costs of making batteries with atmospheric CO2, rather than with any of the sane carbon sources just lying around?

This plan is nonsensical. It's like solar roadways. It's stupidly expensive, and it just won't work. It's another bogus project dreamed up to make use of green tech research grants that will never see the light of day.

<comment><USER7> I suppose you've read James Hansen or Kevin Anderson's latest work on climate change, right?

<comment><USER8> Please illuminate us.

<comment><USER7> They represent their research better than I can. Just search for the names followed by "2016" and pick your favorite source...

The basic idea is that we are well beyond reasonable co2 levels and that geological time is just catching up. But again, I'm no substitute for these well regarded scientists so it's best to read their research. There's a science based show named radio ecoshock if you're interested.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> When we get the political consensus to put a price on atmospheric carbon, it will give a subsidy to anyone who can make a solid material out of carbon. What will be the most economical way to get those subsidies? I don't think it will be making carbon nanotubes. That requires an extremely pure source of carbon. I think the biggest application will be construction materials:

Mine CaO, use atmospheric CO2 to convert it to CaCO3 this use that as feeder stock for making limestone-like and marble-like construction materials. These could be premium materials -- I could easily see Salesforce paying a premium to cover the floors of Salesforce tower in 'reclaimed atmospheric marble' to advertise their green creds -- or a down market material -- just mix it in to drywall to get the CO2 credits. Either way, this process would be much less fussy about the purity of the CO2 source.

</comment><comment><USER10> If we ever do clean up the CO2 produced from consumption of oil the energy cost will be greater than the power gained from the initial consumption. I.e. Every watt of energy paid with oil must be paid with another form of energy plus interest.

<comment><USER11> Mostly, yes... You don't necessarilly need to turn CO2 back to hydrocarbon, there may be less expensive ways to capture and store that carbon. Still, you're correct that the costs will be gigantic.

<comment><USER12> Why do the costs need to be gigantic? Trees (and other plants) already do it for free, and they cost next to nothing to plant and maintain.

<comment><USER11> It depends on the timescale you want to operate with.

Also, you'd need to reverse the topsoil destruction and the spread of agricultural exploitation, which is not going to be easy when the population keeps on growing.

<comment><USER13> Check your assumptions.

Population frequently finds itself checked, one way or another.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Carbon Nanotubes are the next "leaded gasoline"

<comment><USER15> They're asbestos after a week long meth binge. They treat your lungs like a paper target of Bernie at a Texas gun range.

<comment><USER10> Any source on that?

<comment><USER16> He huffed some nanotubes before writing that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> How can this powerplant idea work? You get the binding energy from carbo hydrates, then you need to add back more thsn that energy to capture and convert all CO2 back to nanotubes and oxygen. The excess energy comes from solar? Fine, may make sense, but that's not going to be an electrical powerplant anymore. It's a battery factory.

<comment><USER10> A solar battery factory would be great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> If you can cost effectively extract large quantities of CO2 from the atmosphere, the oil industry would be very interested. CO2 flood is one of the most effective enhanced oil recovery (EOR) methods. The problem is a lack of sources convenient to the oil fields. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_flooding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_flooding)

</comment><comment><USER19> How much CO2 does a square meter of this remove from the atmosphere compared to a square meter of the most efficient plants?

<comment><USER20> Take for example moringa. It uses CO2, of course, _and_ its leaves have tons of digestible nutrients. If an animal eats them, it can help maintain good health (separate measurement). If an animal who plants these trees eats them to maintain good health, then you would need to measure many more factors about that animal's life and other interconnected lives to understand the long-term emergent dynamics of healthy life and its effects on CO2.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Do carbon nanotubes biodegrade?

<comment><USER22> It's graphite basically

I would say it does

<comment><USER23> About as quickly as a lump of coal. There aren't many things that feed on raw carbon.

<comment><USER24> We need bacteria that does</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Review my startup idea, is this a dud? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
In a nutshell I am developing a web-service that will allow the creators of user generated content to view a range of metrics relating to that content so that they can evaluate its performance. This is something I find is missing on a lot of websites & I often wonder about.
An example where this could be used is on a classifieds website, when a user posts an ad my software would track the number of impressions that ad receives, most popular days / times it is viewed, its search results ranking on that classifieds website, how it ranks in relation to other ads, offer keyword suggestions, an external / links pointing to their ad.
The customer of this product would be the website owner, it would be free initially but I eventually would like to charge  based a pay-per-use model.
I have more advanced ideas for other services it could provide but they are for later versions.
A lot of people recently have been telling me they think this is a really bad idea, that it would not really be useful to users.
Just wanted to reach out and get some wider opinions - do you think I am wasting my time or would you find this a useful service? <comment><USER2> As I understand it, you're basically talking about stats for the creator of the content who is creating it on another site,

I think there might be potential for something like that.

However, you would just have to nail down your market better, check competitors and survey some medium-size user generated content sites on what they would want. Talk to them. Ask them, get free feedback, enlist them for a beta. Make contacts, then they will be potential customers later.

</comment><comment><USER3> Sounds a bit vague and similar to what I am working on. Is this basically analytics but not just on the content creator's site but any other site where the content appears?

<comment><AUTHOR> Its targeted towards websites that have a large number of independent content creators such as a forum, auction or classifieds website.

Within the users admin panel on those websites, users will be able to view metrics, kind of like Google Analytics, showing statistical performance for each of their listings on that website - so they know how they are performing. It will also inform them of any external websites, tweets or other web content that contains a link back to their listing.

Right now, analytical packages seem to be focused on providing statistics back to the owners of websites, but there is not much focused on providing feedback to the individual content creators.

<comment><USER3> Ah that does sound like a dud business wise. It would be nice to see more extensive stats for each site I use, like digg, forums, HN, etc.. but most sites and users could do without it. The user won't be paying for these stats, so the site owner needs to benefit a lot for the hassle. These stats are being collected one way or another but there is a lot of variation from one site to the next. Could it turn into a big hassle for some sites?

A site owner might put extensive stats to use to design a better community site. You could make some summary visualization of the user into their profile icon, so others know who they're dealing with. Sites like digg, quora, HN already have a lot of stats on individual users and it wouldn't be a big deal for them to create a visualization for a user. More recent companies like Etsy probably have some sales stats users can see. It's a small feature on many sites, most users don't need super detailed analytics.

Too many stats are confusing, many users who use 3rd party sites like ebay, etsy, don't want the hassle of what site owners go through, like looking at referrers. Some simplified online popularity graph might get adopted by site owners, but many users won't even understand that.

With that said, developing the idea itself further wouldn't hurt. I'm sure there are more market fits for analytics. An analytics social network where people compare their stats to their friends seems like a pre-requisite for this idea. Otherwise 'normal people' won't understand what the stats mean, there won't be a competitive or psychological incentive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> Also maybe look to see if you can write it somehow to interface with Google Analytics api -- a lot of sites use that for their own backend stats.</comment>


Ask HN: Which Google research papers are considered? - <AUTHOR> Google publishes lots of research papers. Which ones are considered landmark papers? I currently have Google File System, MapReduce, and BigTable papers on my list. Which other papers do fellow HNers recommend? <comment><USER2> Dremel ([https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub36632](https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub36632)), Flume ([https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub35650](https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub35650)), Sibyl (not published, but there is [https://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~niejiazhong/slides/chandra.pdf](https://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~niejiazhong/slides/chandra.pdf) most people outside google don't appreciate how important sibyl was for google, pre-tensorflow).

And the single most important paper I have ever read about machine learning, written by the team that built SmartASS: "Machine Learning: The High Interest Credit Card of Technical Debt" [https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub43146](https://ai.google/research/pubs/pub43146)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you. Added these to the reading list.</comment></comment>


My idea is *not* just another business - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/p/935f0a06cbf

<comment><USER2> "Where are the good old days, when it was all about learning, and being something people aspire to, instead of just being a business entity that gets funded by all the big names in the VC arena, and goes on to make a profit, but not really do something awesome?"

The problem is that money and profit are the life-blood of your company. Many things of value are difficult to turn into a profitable business.

I think of how to make a profit..and then build something of value around it. My current company has been profitable from day one because it started with the business model. I don't even choose to work ideas that don't have a business model.

<comment><AUTHOR> I see. Honestly, I never thought of that. Now that I dwell on it, makes a lot of sense.

Guess the one good thing that came about of this rant was your take on it!</comment></comment>


The Abject Failure of Weak Typing - <AUTHOR> http://techblog.realestate.com.au/the-abject-failure-of-weak-typing

<comment><USER2> [https://hn.algolia.com/?q=abject+weak+typing#!/story/forever...](https://hn.algolia.com/?q=abject+weak+typing#!/story/forever/0/abject%20weak%20typing)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, thanks! Can we get that normalized by the system? If not, is there a preferred form?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> > Treat your types as the only real documentation.

Types are good. Let's make more of them!</comment>


Ask HN: Cheap places to stay in the Bay Area? - <AUTHOR>

I am part of an Irish start-up and I am going to be in the Bay Area for a number of meetings with my co-founder from the 14th until the 27th of June. We have teamed up with another start-up, another 2 guys and are looking to find cheap places to stay for the duration of the trip. Our current best option is hostels in downtown San Fran for around $40 a night. Anyone have any ideas or offers? We are an open and easy going bunch. <comment><USER2> Hotels near the airport are cheaper than in the city. BART from the airport to SF is pretty convenient. You might be able to save some money that way but be more comfortable than a hostel. Some hotels include breakfast in the price which can also help.

Alternatively, look on AirBnB or Craigslist for someplace big enough for all of you to share. It might work out about the same as a hostel but would probably be more comfortable. Just be sure to check what part of the city they're in and what your transit options will be from there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, I will definitely have a look at these options. Especially the airport one!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Camping? You could camp out at McDonald County Park, if you bought a couple of cheap tents and gear from Walmart. Convenient for Sand Hill Road, but not really convenient for SF. You'd need a car.

Otherwise, I'd second the AirBNB apartment idea - I think you could probably skip the "hacker houses" and just look for something where you could get a 2 bedroom apartment.

</comment><comment><USER4> If you decide to go with a hostel I'd recommend [http://www.adelaidehostel.com/mb/](http://www.adelaidehostel.com/mb/) very clean and safe with good wifi and free breakfast.

</comment><comment><USER5> Can't you rent a nice apt through Airbnb for $160-200 a night? You can probably negotiate a discount as well, if you're staying for 2 weeks.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have been looking on airbnb and there seems to be some good options, however a lot of them are very expensive. There are some nice hacker houses. I messaged them and I am waiting to hear back from them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Have you tried couchsurfing.com ?

<comment><AUTHOR> I had forgotten about couchsurfing,not sure my profile still works. I will give it a try. Thanks.</comment></comment>


Analyse Asia 64: Spotify in Asia with Sunita Kaur - <AUTHOR> http://analyse.asia/2015/10/06/episode-64-spotify-in-asia-with-sunita-kaur/ <comment><AUTHOR> Episode Synopsis: Sunita Kaur, managing director, Asia from Spotify joined us for a conversation to discuss the music streaming service and its footprint in Asia. We discuss the current state of Spotify and its value proposition to the customers and the artistes, the specific challenges that Spotify faced to expand their footprint in Asia, and how the service has to localise and customise their service for the Asian markets from Japan to Hong Kong. Last but not least, we reflected on how digital media has evolved over the past decade and why digital text, audio and video content have evolved differently with different business models.</comment>


Ask HN: What's it like to fire someone at a startup? - <AUTHOR>

Can someone who's fired or been fired talk about the experience? Do these scenes often turn ugly? What's the best way to go about it? What does it feel like for both sides? <comment><USER2> I've been on both sides.

1\. Understand that if you're in a situation where you have to fire someone, _as the manager, it is and was your fault._ Your fault for not seeing at the beginning that it wasn't a fit, or your fault for taking someone who had potential and then alienating/de-motivating them along the way. Only with this mindset can you learn not to repeat the same mistake. It's all too easy to just chalk things up to "they were a bad employee" - there are certainly cases where it's not your fault, but I think people tend to vastly underestimate the number of cases where you actually could have changed the outcome.

2\. Whether or not the situation turns ugly is up to you.

Fire someone unexpectedly and without serious efforts to try to help him/her = possibly ugly. Diplomatically try and help someone work through their issues and only then after a few weeks bring up to issue of them leaving = possibly not ugly.

Fire someone who has a 1 year equity cliff after 9 months on the job and give them nothing = ugly. Fire someone who has a 1 year equity cliff after 9 months and give them 9 months of equity + $$ severance in return for signing a release (talk to your lawyer) = much less ugly.

3\. Feelings vary and I don't have much to say about them.

<comment><AUTHOR> What about the current mantras of "fire fast", and "culture fit" as the most important quality of an employee. It seems like that doesn't lend itself to working through problems in a deliberate way or taking much responsibilty for the hiring process. To me, honestly, it sounds like throw a bunch of shit at the wall as fast you can as see what sticks.

Trendy bullshit advice or truth to it?

<comment><USER2> How is that inconsistent with any of my advice? The fastest way to get someone out the door cleanly is to offer a generous severance package.

Culture fit is something you should have selected against when hiring them in the first place.</comment></comment></comment>


Jonathan Blow – How to program independent games - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjDsP5n2kSM <comment><USER2> I love that he is a member of _Giving What We Can_ : [https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/about- us/members/](https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/about-us/members/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Wow, he's the guy behind the game The Witness- [0] [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0)</comment>


Is your new technology crappy enough? - <AUTHOR> http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/02/is-your-new-technology-crappy-enough.html

<comment><AUTHOR> If you are wondering why this was submitted twice, it's because I was testing a theory I have about time of day and voting patterns on HN.

<comment><USER2> The time-of-day/voting pattern is something that occurred to me too. But the scientifically sound way of verifying this would be to look at the ratio of successful items and the submission rate for different times of the day.

This attempt with a single post might falsify our hunch (ie, it might attract the same no of votes later in the day), but chances are that that would be because it wasn't your best post ever...</comment></comment>


Set server timezones to UTC - <AUTHOR> http://yellerapp.com/posts/2015-01-12-the-worst-server-setup-you-can-make.html <comment><USER2> Why not use TAI? You get all the same benefits of UTC, but never have to deal with leap seconds.

TAI: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time)

<comment><USER3> Converting between TAI and UTC requires tables that must be periodically updated and distributed to any system that converts between the two. Smooth UTC is a good alternative for most computing applications.

<comment><USER4> I always assumed you need such a table anyway to know when leap seconds happen...

<comment><USER3> Yes, but if the machine clock is synchronized to UTC the machine itself doesn't need the table, and you only have to distribute the table to a small number of NTP servers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't think the article points this out, but another strong point in favor of using UTC (or anyways some timezone that (by _definition_) doesn't have DST) is that then you won't have discontinuities in your monitoring timeseries. It's just lovely when you have two datapoints for "cpu usage at 1:30am", similarly it's just lovely when your alerts fire because there's a 1h gap in your timeseries when the clocks jump forward.

<comment><USER6> The OP sort of touched on this with the point about "some jobs going missing" at the transition points. It's roughly the same issue I guess. Anyway will certainly join in the chant of UTC, UTC, UTC. Not long ago I had to manage some boxes at different colo datacenters where I had some on pacific time, some on central. It's a huge pain figuring out when things actually happened.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I agree with the author on having servers using UTC. The most annoying pain point for me is trying to read a log file and having to perform lots of mental arithmetic to compare it to the local time when I know the local time for an event.

I wrote a simple tool to translate timestamps between timezones on the fly when viewing files, although I've only used it personally, so I am sure there are plenty of bugs. Might be useful to someone else (or roll your own improved version).

[https://github.com/billhathaway/catz](https://github.com/billhathaway/catz)

</comment><comment><USER8> Hahaha I loved this! I actually like the short style of this post. Normally I'd argue that consistency is what matters really, but I actually had not thought about daylight savings time... Short and sweet!

</comment><comment><USER9> My servers in SF UTC-08:00 Some guy at UTC+02:00 set his event to 2pm on 2016-07-20

But I need to use moment.js to display the correct time with UTC. Is there a way to handle multi timezone users without external library?

<comment><USER10> I'd personally just keep using Moment. The pain of working with JS Date objects isn't worth saving a few tens of KiB/a few ms of parsing time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Use "unixtime" ints anywhere you deal with times programmatically and set the TZ to whatever you like...imho the TZ setting is for human benefit, so humans should feel free to change it.

<comment><USER12> This is of course the right solution in theory, but in practice, tools you don't have much control over use local time, not UTC, when interacting with the user.

Cron is one example. It isn't trivial or intuitive to set up your crontabs in UTC; it should be, because that makes the most sense on a server (especially during DST transitions), but since it isn't, you either have to set your system time to UTC (as the article suggests), hack around it (changing the cron program on all machines you care about), or be aware of the pitfalls (like DST transitions).

<comment><USER13> From the ISC crontab(5) man page:

 _The CRON_TZ specifies the time zone specific for the cron table. User type into the chosen table times in the time of the specified time zone. The time into log is taken from local time zone, where is the daemon running._

I use this all the time to set job times relative to a specific timezone while the server time is in UTC. It is trivial and makes setting the times largely intuitive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So, is it true that Google for a very long time set their servers to PDT?

<comment><USER15> Don't they still?

I see headers like this in GMail:

        Received: … Sat, 16 Jul 2016 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT)

which gives me two calculations to get to my own timezone, rather than just one.

The same offset is in headers from Facebook and Microsoft, though Oracle have UTC.

<comment><USER14> That doesn't say anything about the servers timezones. SMTP is a service on top of those.

<comment><USER15> It seems unlikely that the SMTP process would run in a timezone different to the server. What benefit would that give?

<comment><USER14> They would operate a virtual machine-type layer on top of their actual linux machines. In the upper layer they could be doing whatever..

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> My first VPS is still alive but I made the mistake of setting the timezone to that of my own.

Does anyone have experience with changing timezone of a server?

The only time I have seen time related errors when I extracting a tar file that had a future timestamp.

<comment><USER17> You need to put appropriate (binary) file to /etc/timezone, or historically, a symlink to a file under /usr/share/zoneinfo/.

<comment><USER18> "Historically"? You mean symlinks are discouraged/deprecated nowadays?

I only heard about the early-boot issue wish separate /usr partition. Is there anything else?

As for early-boot issue - I'd say it's uncommon to have /usr on separate partition from / nowadays, and those who do this must know what they're doing. Less likely to happen than ad-hoc manual (non-packaged) tzdata update not catching up.

<comment><USER17> > "Historically"? You mean symlinks are discouraged/deprecated nowadays?

I saw somewhere a comment from a distribution (it was Red Hat, I believe) saying that _some_ programs could have trouble with a symlink. I've never encountered such a program and I could easily live with a symlink, but Debian (my current main distro) went with a file copy, so I didn't bother.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Also, if the user sets a date in the frontend, make sure it gets saved in the right timezone so that the date never changes when viewing it from a browser running in another timezone.

<comment><USER12> Or, just translate the date from the user's local time to UTC as it is entered and stored, and display it in the local time of whoever is looking at it (or use UTC if the user wants to see it in UTC), so you don't have any confusion.

<comment><USER20> For events in the future, the mapping between local wall time and UTC is not fixed (consider that Egypt recently cancelled DST on three days' notice), so if the time that matters is local wall time, you should not store your days as a UTC time stamp, you should store it as the local wall time with a zone or location identifier (generally use an Olson TZ if possible).

If you're storing time stamps (i.e. you care about how many seconds have elapsed / will elapse since / until the event), your strategy is the right way to go.

<comment><USER12> This thread was about changing timezones though.

Of course, if the time you are storing is local, and doesn't need to change time zones, store it as local...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> My place uses GMT+4. It fvcks with us every fall.

</comment><comment><USER22> Saving you the click:

> Setting the timezone to anything other than UTC

</comment><comment><USER23> All of the arguments in this post supporting UTC could be applied to _any_ timezone without daylight saving.

If your company is entirely located in California or some other Pacific Time location, consider putting your servers on Arizona time. There's no daylight saving, and for most of the year, the server time will match your wristwatch. In the winter, when California is on PST, the servers will only be off by an hour.

I find that much more tolerable than the hassles of UTC servers, where you can't instantly translate between server time and wall time in your head, and server midnight rolls over in the middle of the California day, and thus datestamped logfiles don't match up at all with your wall calendar.

Edit: If you're going to downvote, please post a comment explaining why, so that readers can learn something.

<comment><USER24> What if Arizona decides to adopt DST?

<comment><USER25> It's unlikely to. Residents of a state where summer temperatures get well over 100° regularly don't want summer days to be even longer. The few attempts to do so (for no good reason) have always failed spectacularly, and most Arizona residents are very pleased with it the way it is.

<comment><USER26> DST had no effect on day length. It has an effect on which actual hours of the day are outside of conventional working hours.

<comment><USER25> Exactly, and my point still stands. Arizonans want the sun to set sooner after work so they can enjoy a cooler evening and have the hot hours over earlier relative to getting out of work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> While it's decent advice, I don't think the reasoning here is particularly helpful.

> DST is different in different timezones, and at some points the overlap will > cause a bug when interacting with other systems

That's mostly just an argument for using the same timezone in all of your systems.

> I have (in the past), seen servers where the system timezone is set to PST, > but the database is set to UTC

Same deal.

> There are thousands of bugs out there that are caused by timezones

A google search for any other word + bug is going to give you plenty of hits too.

> UTC assuming code interacting with non UTC assuming code can, and has caused > silent data corruption

This is an argument for non-naive datetimes. Also is the same regardless of the two timezones involved.

> migrating later than the start of the infrastructure can be really painful, > because of your app getting coupled to the timezone it's in.

That's an argument for not changing timezones, rather than using UTC.

The other couple arguments are similarly moot.

While UTC is good, I think the key is really using consistent date handling. The most important bit is how you store them in the database, and in that regard I'm a fan of fully-non-ambiguous storage. That means either unix timestamps, or timezone-aware datetimes. Ambiguity by assuming a datetime everywhere from a data perspective is where you'll create confusion.

<comment><USER5> > > DST is different in different timezones, and at some points the overlap > will cause a bug when interacting with other systems

> That's mostly just an argument for using the same timezone in all of your > systems.

The TZ database is not static. Governments have a habit of monkeying with DST definitions to suit their whims. Several of your systems may have TZ updates come out at different times. Debian/java/erlang/windows have different rollouts for the TZ database that you have to coordinate somehow if you want all your systems to agree on the time/date.

Just use UTC.

<comment><USER27> I do think you should use UTC everywhere. I just don't think the article makes the best argument for it.</comment></comment></comment>


Study says women are better at crowdfunding - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fintech-crowdfunding-idUSKBN19Z2H5 <comment><USER2> Here you go: [http://bfy.tw/CrF0](http://bfy.tw/CrF0)</comment>


On Day Care, Google Makes a Rare Fumble - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/05/business/05nocera.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=login&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1215254818-59OmZCQO0HIy0VGdQlO4Ug <comment><USER2> The big issue that Google has (incidentally the same issue that MS went through) is the two classes of employees that they now have and the resentment and disconnect between the two groups. The two groups, of course, are those who are millionaires and are 'fully vested' and those new googlers who are not millionaires (and probably never will become millionaires). The latter group relies on a salary to live in a very expensive area and they count on every perk as a way to reduce their bills so they can make the ends meet each month. One site recently showed that average salary at Google is around $110K. In the valley, that's not a lot when you factor in the cost of living. So this increase in daycare is not a big deal to all those millionaires and yet it is a huge increase to those that can't afford it.

As Google matures and they start cutting even more of these perks, the two groups will start growing even further apart. It's a serious organizational issue and Google will need to tackle it quickly.

<comment><USER3> Mountain View is indeed expensive but $110K is $50K more than the average household income in the Bay Area. Aside from packing 3 people to a cube, Google pampers its employees above and beyond almost any other company in the area. There is free food, health insurance, free gym, free laundry, free haircuts and so forth. Taking this into account, a Google employee doesn't have to spend much money on anything other than rent, transportation and food for the kid. Even if renting a $3000/m apartment and leasing a Lexus a Google employee making $110K a year would still have $50K a year left over. "Making ends meet" perhaps isn't the most accurate way to describe the situation these people face.

<comment><USER4> But Google day care is said to now cost $57,000 for two kids in post-tax money (which means closer to $80,000 of pre-tax money). right?

<comment><USER3> Yes. It does seem absurd that Google day care costs more per year than attending Harvard. A full time nanny can be hired for half that. Someone with a $110K salary and a working significant other has plenty of options for child care. If they are truly struggling to make ends meet, they are simply mismanaging their finances.

I'm assuming the other person works too, which is why they need child care. Thus, their actual combined income is over $110K, which is an enviable position for any household, even in the Bay Area.

<comment><USER5> Then hire a nanny?

People get too used to what they have. Try leaving and seeing how much better plan B is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The problem with flat organizations like Google is that they aren't really flat at all; all that happens is the org chart is hidden rather than out in the open. This story is nothing to do with daycare per se; it's to do with the crackpot ideological ideas of one individual who is very powerful on the hidden org chart, and is abusing her position to further her own social engineering experiments.

<comment><USER7> I think it also gives a clear example of out how brittle "don't be evil" truly is, when administered by a "management committee" consisting of people who are mostly multimillionaires.

Perhaps a more equitable and user-responsive way to provide day care would be to let local offices or workgroups organize their own childcare groups, with some degree of corporate subsidy and other support.

<comment><USER6> You know, Marie Antoinette is famous for saying "then let them eat cake" when told that the poor of Paris had no bread. That wasn't her being cruel; she had been raised in such luxury that she simply couldn't comprehend that there was no food at all to be had outside of her cloistered world. The pre-IPO Googlers have all the characteristics of an aristocracy now...

<comment><USER8> I don't think that's true ...

I believe that the original source of that quote was Rousseau, referring to an unnamed princess, some 20 years before Marie Antoinette was even born.

There is some speculation that he may have been referring to Maria Theresa of Spain, but even that is doubtful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> From the article:

"Meanwhile, someone at Google woke up one day and realized that the company was subsidizing each child to the tune of $37,000 a year — which nobody had noticed up until then — compared with the $12,000-a-year average subsidy of other big Silicon Valley companies like Cisco Systems and Oracle."

It seems that Google was quite generous over the years and finally realized that given the difficult economic times that they as a company must do something to bring their internal spending in line to a more realistic range. I don't see why Google should be penalized for such a move.

Unfortunately for Google, the fact that this is a move that affects children and families such a story becomes even more sensitive. Google is a business like any other business out there. Why are they being treated as though they are something other than a business?

<comment><USER10> It seems that google was generous in the way a company is generous by having a policy to pay for traveling employees' hotel stays at the Ritz, and when it learns that they are paying 4x more than competitors who have employees stay at the Marriot, changes its policy by having employees stay at the Ritz but charging them to cover some of the subsidy, instead of changing their policy and paying for employees to stay at a lower priced hotel. Apologies for the looong sentence.

<comment><USER11> Exactly! The "evil" part about this isn't that Google wants to reduce their subsidy from 37k to 12k it's that Google wants to reduce the subsidy w/o lowering costs.

That said no one is forcing the parents to use Google child care and they could presumably band together and go to the company that ran the original lower cost care service and have them open a cost effective center near by, or something to that effect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I know one shouldn't question orthodoxy, but it seems insane to me to have children and then dump them all day, from a young age, with strangers. What's the point of having them if you're not raising them?

<comment><USER13> As the parent of a 2 month old, it's a difficult question we're facing right now. Who? How? When? Should my wife, with a doctorate in biochemistry, abandon her career completely and stay home? Should I? I'm not enthusiastic about those options. Should we hire someone? Not wild about that either. I think the best would be to kind of try and switch off, but it's going to require a lot of flexibility, and perhaps earning less money. The second is probably ok, depending on wherever it is we settle, the second may not be forthcoming from many employers. _Sigh_...

<comment><USER14> With all due respect, did it never occur to you to get this all figured out BEFORE you had kids?

<comment><USER13> Wow, I don't think I've ever been so offended by something on this site. Your implication that I haven't thought about the future of my daughter is... something I hope you never say to any other parent.

We've done our best to think about the future, but it's unknowable.

<comment><USER15> I don't think he meant to be so offensive. He may just not realize how hard this problem is.

The fact is, finding a perfect solution for taking care of small children in an industrial society is probably an insoluble problem. And if so it's not one you can solve before having kids, or after them.

<comment><USER13> > I don't think he meant to be so offensive.

Looking at it again, I hope that he wrote quickly without really thinking about what his words meant.

<comment><USER16> You still haven't thought about what his words meant.

You said you were facing a certain problem "now", 2 months after the child was born.

You could have made your decision about how to handle it prior to the child being born. If you'd done that, you would not be facing the problem now, it would be decided. But you didn't.

He asked about why you didn't decide in advance. You got offended by the implication that you hadn't decided in advance. That was something you said yourself, so it's unreasonable to be offended by it, or to blame him for noticing you said it.

<comment><USER17> Do you have any kids? Do you realize how unpredictable it is to plan things for your child, for example, how sick the child is going to be, or how well- tempered?

<comment><USER16> My post is simply about logic and who said what. Nothing more. Why can't you read it rationally?

And, BTW, if you and other parents can't read it rationally, why should I believe you handle parenting matters rationally? Parenting matters are more difficult and more emotional than reading a simple forum post.

<comment><USER15> Here is the rational answer you seem to want. (a) This problem is so hard you can probably never solve it satisfactorily, and (b) you can't know what it's going to be like to have kids before you have them, or what your kids will be like. So however much thought you expend on the question before having kids, you're still going to be working on it afterward.

<comment><USER18> Society has a response to (a) and (b). It is called a social net, based on solidarity: it works like insurance schemes should (not speaking of fraudulent market schemes, e.g. the US health insurance). I think the biggest problem is, that you despise pooling resources into social systems purportedly designed to help in (a) and (b). "Old" Europe has suffered enough in WWII to recognize the importance of it, and erect such a system, which is frowned upon by "risk tolerant entrepreneurship" (they have enough personal wealth to fall back on). This social net you are missing is being therefore dismantled in the EU as well, since it is regarded as uncompetitive compared to the US or China. It is a race to the bottom (if you compete with slaves, you become a slave*), of which the GOOG kindergarten is just a sign.

<http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Norbert_Wiener>

<comment><USER13> We live in Europe, and no, handouts not really the answer we're looking for. We're aiming at a flexible schedule for both of us in order to both have time with our daughter. The safety net stuff is nice in some ways, but it's not really what we're after.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> _Parents who had been paying $1,425 a month for infant care would see their costs rise to nearly $2,500_

"$1,425" was the subsidized price? If someone told me day care cost that much, I'd fall on the floor, but that's the _good_ price. A woman where I work pays 30 dollars a day, and that's far, far too much. Unbelievable waste. Absolutely unbelievable. $1,425 is more than my total monthly expenses. I could theoretically make my living by watching _one child_. Clearly, this is an industry just waiting for its Sam Walton.

<comment><USER17> Unfortunately, this industry isn't very scaleable: how many children should one overseer watch, and still provide quality childcare? 2-7, IMHO, depending on the age of the children...

<comment><USER20> > Unfortunately, this industry isn't very scaleable

Clearly, you haven't seen my latest web-app...

<comment><USER17> Can I be a private beta tester?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm saddened, but not shocked, that very smart people think you need to spend $40k/year in daycare for children. Misplaced parental guilt?

<comment><USER22> If you are a young couple with an infant in the Bay Area you don't have much of a choice. A friend of mine and his wife decided that they would be better off if she quit her job and took care of their two kids for a few years, as her take-home salary wasn't enough to pay for day care.

<comment><USER21> Is the limiting factor good quality observers/teachers? Why don't they open their own daycare? It's a lot of work, but if a parent has quit their job any ways, what's a few more kids?

<comment><USER23> Quite simply: it's insurance and state-mandated minimum child-provider ratios! The least we ever paid for childcare was $820/month and that was a very good preschool that had extremely low staff turnover -- we were lucky. When my son was younger, the costs were higher: infants cost over $1000/month.

That said, many people here in MN do in-home daycare which is usually much less expensive. Usually it's a parent who has decided to stay home with her baby and gets the training and insurance to care for other children as well to cover the cost of her leaving her job. However, as you get to the preschool years, the quality varies radically. They may give good childcare, but the learning experiences can be slim to none. My son entered Kindergarten extremely well prepared and immediately outdistanced most of the other kids. Odds are that in-home daycare would not have prepared him for school as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> _Don't Be Evil_ seems a bit like a levee system. Its easy when your town is small to keep it surrounded by levees and the flood waters at bay, but there comes a point when the town is just too big, a weak spot inevitably occurs and the flood waters come roaring in.

</comment><comment><USER25> Why is daycare so expensive? Seems to me you need a room and two to three people to watch over the children. If you have 10 children in the room, and everyone costs 40000$, that would mean it costs 400000$ per year to rent a room and pay the salary for three people?

It seems child nurses earn a LOT more than the average IT person?

<comment><USER6> Consider any school. They have teachers, sure. And they have caterers, and cleaners, and contractors to maintain the infrastructure... There are a lot more people involved than just the direct service providers.

<comment><USER26> Caterers: preparing food for ten children isn't a big job, all they need is sandwiches and drink boxes which can be prepared in advance and taken out of the fridge.

Cleaners: It's only a room, it only needs to be cleaned once a day. Shouldn't be that expensive either.

Contractors to maintain the infrastructure: again, it's only a room, maintenance really shouldn't be that difficult.

It's obvious that there's a lot of money flowing into childcare, and it's not obvious where it's all going. It's certainly not going to the people who are doing the caring -- they make almost no money at all. Is it all going to into insurance and compliance with various regulations?

<comment><USER6> Read the article - Google's daycare has fancy organic food.

<comment><USER26> Can I just take this opportunity to say that the term "organic foods" bugs me? I mean, of course it's organic -- it's food! With the possible exceptions of water and salt (one could argue about whether they're really food) surely all food is organic.

<comment><USER27> True, but can you think of a better single word (not a phrase) to convey non- industrial-as-currently-practiced? "Natural" has the same weakness you identify, so that's out also.

It's a bummer that there's no commonly accepted definition for organic, but it's probably because at least for now, the fight is _against_ current practices (which explains the many alternatives that have sprung up), instead of being _for_ a particular practice, which could be named more accurately and concisely.

<comment><USER6> "Organic" can also mean "does not require external assistance".

For example, the Marines describe a unit as "organic" if it can operate without assistance from the other services (e.g. this is why the Marines have their own aviation and don't rely on the Air Force the way the Army do)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> There's really not much here. Reads like a political hit piece, with "anonymous sources" relaying embarrassing quotes from Sergey Bin. I usually expect a lot better from NYTimes.

</comment><comment><USER29> Hangon, so let me get this right...

Not only have Google basically doubled the cost of their childcare, but they're also charging people for the priveledge to be on the waiting list for that childcare?

They dont think this is a strange move at all?

</comment><comment><USER30> I've always paid for our day care. But this is a bad idea because googlers would be more comfortable and spend more time working if day care were right there at work. Near work or near home are the two most convenient places. I'm told Mountain View is a cluster fuck for day care.

Of course they are missing a bigger opportunity in improving education here. Like universities, google should be experimenting with different kinds of education. They could make a big difference.

<comment><USER6> _google should be experimenting with different kinds of education_

Not quite true; Google is legally obligated to act in the best interests of its shareholders, and _only_ that. That's true for any public company, and the board can go to jail if they aren't seen to be doing that. With great riches comes great responsibility...

<comment><USER30> It's a huge business opportunity.

<comment><USER6> If Google entered the education business its shareholders would (rightly) wonder what its competitive advantage in that market would be, and whether the margins (return on capital) would be more or less than its existing businesses. Seriously, what could Google bring to the table here?

<comment><USER30> Education has followed an industrial/factory model for many decades, with few exceptions. The founds of Google went through one of the exceptions: Montessori.

We need to update education, and a tech company is the right place to start. A simple example: build a natural language query system to allow a child to get any question answered immediately. May as well call it 411-GOOG 2.0

These issues are very much related to how google makes money today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I have a 7-month-old, and I believe that my wife has found the ideal care situation. She works, from home, part time. Hours are flexible, she can stay home with our daughter, and get most of her work done during naps or after I get home.

I believe as time goes on, this is going to become more and more common as there are more women in the workforce who are uninterested in waiting until their late 30s to have children and telecommuting gets to be more common.

It's constant hard work for her, but she would never trade her time with our daughter for the extra money from being full-time, even if that extra pay covered the child-care (which it wouldn't).

</comment><comment><USER32> I note that it was a website banned here that first broke that story.

<comment><USER33> Why yes, indeedy:

6/13 [http://valleywag.com/5016355/google-daycare-now-a-luxury- for...](http://valleywag.com/5016355/google-daycare-now-a-luxury-for-larry- and-sergeys-inner-circle)

6/16 [http://valleywag.com/5016952/googles-daycare-debacle-the- kin...](http://valleywag.com/5016952/googles-daycare-debacle-the-kinderplex- memos)

A broken clock's at least right twice a day, eh?

<comment><USER34> Let's give them twice a year. And by reading here instead of there, I get it all filtered for free.

Edit: I went and looked at them. They're very similar to the NYT piece, only shorter. Perhaps HN should ban the NYT? :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> There are two elephants in the room here:

1\. The exorbitant cost of the Bay Area (and other places like NYC, Boston, D.C., etc.) - there's a reason the Bay Area has the lowest ratio of children to overall population in the country. It's just not an affordable place to raise a family. It's essentially a giant suburbs without the traditional cost advantage of a suburb. You can live in Mountain View, Palo Alto, etc. for the price of living in a world class city like Chicago. You make that choice. Good for you.

2\. Where are the grandparents? As someone from a more traditional culture, I don't quite understand the desire for couples to go it alone. Why not live near your parents or have them move to live near you? Grandparent-grandchild interaction is extremely valuable. It helps transmit your family values to your children while allowing your parents to stay mentally active and it also keeps them happy. It also significantly reduces childcare costs.

I'm not married yet and probably won't have kids for a few years but I really think this is the correct AND affordable approach:

*Evaluate where you are in life. There's no point waiting for the perfect time. Adversity is good for kids - it prevents them from growing up to be spoiled brats. I grew up in a Third World country and the only things my parents weren't cheap on were my health/nutrition, safety, and education. That's all that really matters. Have kids before you're too old.

A) If you have a lot of capital or high salary, stay where you are, and have one spouse work part time (can alternate), and suck it up till the kids are in school. Mix in a few days of daycare per week to allow for part-time.

B) If you don't have a lot of capital or a high salary, move somewhere cheap. Your spouse and you can both work full-time and afford daycare a few days a week.

In both situations, have the grandparents around! If you're an only child, it's easy - your parents will be there in a heartbeat. If you and your spouse are one of 2 kids, then your parents can alternate. If you and your spouse are one of 3 or more kids, live near your siblings. Raise your kids around your family.

</comment><comment><USER36> "employer-provided day care, at affordable prices, ought to be like health insurance, a benefit that every company provides as a matter of course."

If only this were true in more companies nowadays.

</comment><comment><USER37> It's expensive to raise a family in the United States. The economics and the culture are against it. Add to that the cost of raising a family with someone who turns out to be the wrong person: your expected income after marriage must be reduced by the probability of divorce times the cost of divorce. Children necessarily complicate matters.

The problem would be alleviated somewhat if more and more people owned their own businesses, instead of the situation we currently have, of numerous workers employed by a wealthy class. At some point, these workers should simply refuse to work for anyone substantially more wealthy than they are. The value to an employer of having a large pool of interchangeable labor is calculable. Who created that value? Not the employer: the people. And it is the people who should and who must demand that value they created for themselves.

</comment><comment><USER38> as a side note why do I have to click through two pages of ads to see the 2nd page of the article? (I didn't hit 'print article' because I figured it was another click to see the whole page anyways)

These msm companies online (forbes, NYT, et. al) really have not figured it out yet.

</comment><comment><USER39> Someone mentioned 2-7 kids per "overseer". Where I went to kindergarden, ratio was 20-30:1. Even later in elementary/high school, the ratio was 25-35 kids per teacher.

<comment><USER40> There are guidelines and laws about child/caretaker ratios. Infants need a lot more one-on-one time than older children.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I work at Google and this article has a few statements that make it clear the author's sources aren't credible (At least on this issue).

I wouldn't take this too seriously and I'm surprised that the Times:

1\. Thought Google's daycare policy was worthy of the front page

2\. Couldn't find a credible source who actual understands how and why the decision was made.

<comment><USER37> The Times is usually scrupulous about fact checking--except when it comes to supporting Imperial adventures and warmongering.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Didn't anyone learn anything from Bubble 1?

</comment><comment><USER43> Today Google Preschool, tomorrow Google K through 12. :)

</comment><comment><USER44> Further evidence that Google is NOT all that it is cracked up to be. The days of Google subsidizing child care would seem to be gone. Not that any other organization is much better at this particular problem, unfortunately.

</comment><comment><USER45> I'm going to comment on a micropoint, since the main issues seem pretty well covered at this point.

<i>Having discovered that Google is not, in fact, the promised land, a number of Googlers have left recently to join start-ups, hotter companies like Facebook — and even Microsoft.</i>

Wait a second... Facebook is "hotter"? That seems unreal. It's not that Facebook is a bad company, per se, but I'd much rather work at Google. I can't imagine top-talent wanting to have Mark Zuckerberg, an arrogant 24-year-old, as a boss. I can't speak for tip-top talent, but even still I'd rather gargle a fistful of nuts and bolts.</comment>


Not quite ready to go all the way? Be a catalyst. - <AUTHOR> http://blog.buildv1.com/article/22/not-quite-ready-to-go-all-the-way-be-a-catalyst <comment><USER2> Nice. I think a lot of us are inspired by PG's writings because he comes across as someone who perhaps was not "born" an entrepreneur, and yet managed to be successful. I know I identify far more with "hacker" than businessperson, so trying to make a go of being the latter is tough. It's always good to keep an eye out for what else you could do well.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm a catalyst. And ready.</comment>


Ephemeral chat, no messages stored, no sign up - <AUTHOR> https://flyktig.chat/ <comment><USER2> interesting - was this inspired by this post the other day on HN? looks good though! [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23746445](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23746445) / [https://tmpch.at/](https://tmpch.at/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!

This one was inspired by the need of having quick conversations without sharing a personal Skype, Telegram, WhatsUp, etc.

Also, to get myself familiar with SignalR and Blazor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The name is good

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, aliswe!</comment></comment>


Rules for Good Code - c-rack http://hintjens.com/blog:96 <comment><AUTHOR> This may suit the author's style and that's great. But I strongly disagree with several of these. Calling them "rules for good code" just seems like a lot of hubris.

> 0\. Use Git and Github. I'm not going to dignify this with a non-zero > number. If you aren't using git and github.com then you are already making > excuses for doing it wrong

Okay? I'm glad you found a tool that works for you, but there are plenty of others. And he's not saying "use source control". He's literally saying that no other tool is good enough.

> 2\. Make it Open Source

I don't wanna. Doesn't make my code bad.

> 3\. Always Be Making APIs

This is extremely web centric. For web specifically there's a case to be made here, but he certainly didn't make it

> 4\. Don't Document the Code

I guess don't ever work on a team of more than two then.

> 6\. Better is the Enemy of the Good [...] Do not optimize your code. Aim for > "OK" and then stop

That may work for your project, and maybe every project you've worked on. But it won't work for an airplane's safety systems.

> 9\. Make Portable Code [...] Your code should run on every box there is

Why? Everything else he's talking about is very web-centric, so let's assume that. Don't you control your whole stack from metal to OS then? Why bother making it super portable when you know everything about the system that will be running the code? You have all of the same upsides of programming for a game console. You're in one of the few environments where you can use _all_ of your platform's features. Use them!

> 10\. Lie to Your Management [...] When they demand schedules, plannings, > designs, and architectures, lie to them

I don't even know where to start here.

<comment><USER2> Yes, this is a terrible list. Part of it is the delivery. Most points need more explanation than just "because I say so". If your point is to educate, then don't use aggressive language like "you are already making excuses for doing it wrong"; otherwise, you're just saying "you're doing it wrong, dummy", which by itself is nonconstructive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> "0\. Use Git and Github

I'm not going to dignify this with a non-zero number. If you aren't using git and github.com then you are already making excuses for doing it wrong. It is not about fashion or groupthink. Github (the company) know how to make Good Code, and their tools reflect this."

I stopped reading there, and shed a single tear for all the enormously talented people through history who thought they had made anything even remotely worthwhile pre-github.

:,(

Github is great, but it's not a prerequisite of Good Code for crying out loud. This article is not Good Writing.</comment>


S3st: Stream data from multiple S3 objects directly into your terminal - <AUTHOR> https://www.npmjs.com/package/s3st <comment><USER2> You can also acomplish this with shell:

export BUCKET=____; aws s3 ls "$BUCKET" | tail -n+2 | awk '{print $4}' | while read k; do aws s3 cp "s3://$BUCKET/$k" -; done

<comment><AUTHOR> I especially like the "done" (!) at end :) Thanks for this one-liner!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Cool. I had a similar use case and created a tool to stream colorized logs from CloudWatch to your terminal that is a little more ergonomic to use than this:

[https://github.com/TylerBrock/saw](https://github.com/TylerBrock/saw)

<comment><AUTHOR> I didn't know saw! It looks very very cool, and it's written in go! Thanks for (making and) sharing this!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> One thing to be careful of with this is the Data Transfer (egress) cost you will incur streaming data out from S3.

If you're just wanting to do a 'grep' style action on an S3 prefix, might be worth looking into "S3 Select"for your use case instead

<comment><AUTHOR> Very good point, this is probably worth mentioning in the README. I'll add a note there for sure!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Pretty neat. I'm working on a product that relies heavily on S3 buckets and tagged files.

Does s3st support tags or other ways of identifying which files to stream other than filtering by the content of the files? Asking because I didn't see this feature in the demo.

<comment><AUTHOR> It doesn't. It only supports a prefix to filter out objects. I am happy to get PRs for this kind of features if you have a use case!

<comment><USER5> Copy that. I'll take a look.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What are the advantages of this over a shell pipeline with aws-cli?

<comment><USER7> Or, what is the advantage over mounting the s3 bucket as a local filesystem with s3fs[1] or rclone mount[2] ?

[1] [https://github.com/s3fs-fuse/s3fs-fuse](https://github.com/s3fs- fuse/s3fs-fuse)

[2] [https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_mount/](https://rclone.org/commands/rclone_mount/)

<comment><USER8> If your s3 bucket is huge, that's probably not a good idea. Most likely, the use case here is streaming and search for tagged data within a very large s3 dataset.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> We have a large s3 bucket 2 billions objects and we start thinking about cleaning it a bit. Is anyone had done such things or any tools on :

\- categorising what's inside

\- checking what's used or not

Thanks!

<comment><USER10> The first step would be figuring out what's in there, so maybe look at Glue[1] and see if it can determine your existing schema.

But usually you need to run run arbitrary code against the contents of a large S3 bucket, and that gets tricky. The main problem is tracking what you've done vs. what you need to do, because if you haven't categorized your data yet, you can expect that code processing it will break.

One technique is queues in SQS:

1\. Keys to process

2\. Keys that succeeded

3\. Keys that failed

(Regular queues, FIFO queues probably won't be useful. A queue can have an unlimited backlog, but the maximum message timeout is two weeks. That's probably more than enough time to iterate over some code in Lambda.)

Your initial lambda should be triggered by KeysToProcess, which you can initiate off a developer machine and just run ListBucket and create a pile of messages.

When the lambda is done, it passes its information to KeysThatSucceeded. (Or possibly another S3 bucket, or Dynamo, or a database, or just drop its key if you determine you don't need it.)

Point your dead letter queue to KeysThatFailed. Let the messages pile up in there until you've figured out the errors and are ready to try again.

And then you can trigger off KeysThatFailed, point the dead letter queue at a new KeysThatFailed2, rinse, repeat until you're satisfied it's correct.

[1]: [https://aws.amazon.com/glue/](https://aws.amazon.com/glue/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> What are the potential use cases?

<comment><AUTHOR> There's one in the example (streaming from multiple cloudtrail files and grepping on the resulting stream)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why do companies care about their own valuation? - <AUTHOR> As far as I understand company IPO allows to raise huge amount of money. Once they raised this money why do they care about share value on a daily basis? This valuation is different than cash flow and considering it too much deeply impact long-term strategy, no? <comment><USER2> Since equity based compensation is a large part of many equity packages, if the stock price was falling or at least not rising, that would be a reduction in salary. Companies like equity based compensation because of tax benefits and it generally seems cheaper since they can always issue more stock.

</comment><comment><USER3> Loans,future investment loss, dividend loss to shareholders,C suite bonus and job performance is measured by this,etc...

You wouldn't want to give business to a company that has been losing value continually right?

</comment><comment><USER4> Imagine if you're the CEO of the company and you own 100000 shares of it. Then your net-worth between 100$/share and 120$/share will differ by $2 million. Quite a difference, isn't? And I think most board members hold certain amount of company's stock, and usually most people want their net-worth to grow as much as possible, so they try to do certain things to increase the stock price.

That's one of negative things about stocks in general in my opinion, because people quite often have short-term (lasting a quarter or two) outlook.

<comment><USER5> > That's one of negative things about stocks in general in my opinion, because > people quite often have short-term (lasting a quarter or two) outlook.

That could be easily fixed by requiring all executive and board members' stock to be held for, say, 3 years after vesting before selling.

<comment><USER6> Has it really vested at that point then?

Or is it just a longer vesting period?

<comment><USER7> I guess that depends on your understanding of "vesting" \- and my understanding may be faulty.

As I understand it, if I leave the business before the vesting I get nothing. When the stock vests it becomes mine.

A lock down of the stock then means I can't trade it, but it remains mine (regardless of whether I stay or leave.) Once the lock is lifted I could sell it.

So in that sense there's a difference, yes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The main reasons have already been mentioned.. compensation, feedback to the CEO, etc.. but an interesting one that I just saw, and I don't know if it's possible, appeared on the TV Show Succession (HBO) where the family's stock in the company (which they control but not by much) secures a loan that the lender can call if the stock drops below a certain price.

</comment><comment><USER9> Another angle to think about is the opportunity the company has to raise additional capital after IPO. All things equal, if the share price offered by the market is higher, it is cheaper for the company to raise additional capital by selling additional equity. The company will usually also have an alternative way of raising capital by taking on debt rather than selling equity.

</comment><comment><USER10> Shareholders care deeply about valuation because it puts money in their pocket when the valuation rises.

Shareholders are the CEO's boss.

</comment><comment><USER11> It's a feedback to the CEO how good their company is. Buy putting a price on it (valuation), she/he gets feedback on how she/he is contributing to value increase.

in theory this factors in all aspects, e.g. more than just revenue, because it's a comparison with other companies as well.

reality IMHO: it's bullshit to manage short term valuation only.

</comment><comment><USER12> Same thing with stock market, I couldn't understand that people swapping stock amongst themselves. No money going into productive use

<comment><USER4> You buy a portion of the business. Why wouldn't you want to do that if you have some cash and see a nice deal? It's a beautiful system.</comment></comment>