Facebook is going to use Snopes and other fact checkers to combat fake news - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-will-fact-check-label-fake-news-in-news-feed-2016-12 <comment><USER2> This is terrible. The world is too complicated to fact check.

For example, "thousands lose their jobs due to minimum wage increase". Is this true or not? Well, some schools of economic thought will think its true, and some will not. Some might say the jobs were lost because there was an increase in automation and some might think the increase in automation was caused by the minimum wage. I truly hope that facebook doesn't try to fact check statements like this.

There is inherent bias in the way we look at the world.

i.e. "Assad bombs his own people" vs "Assad continues the fight against ISIS and Al Qaeda" Although an argument could be made that these two statements are not mutually exclusive, they are saying different things. It is quite possible that one will pass through the fact checker and one will not.

Facebook is such a huge source of information, it makes me very concerned when a select few organizations have the ability to discredit information across the entire site.

<comment><USER3> > it makes me very concerned when a select few organizations have the ability > to discredit information across the entire site

One could look at this conversely and say it is concerning when people and oragnizations are able to use Facebook to successfully disseminate misinformation unchecked.

I personally find both sides concerning and see no clear solution.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Looking at the list of fack checkers includes a bunch of political organizations (NGOs) supported by the US government abroad.

An example is a group in Kosovo that supports Serbian separation. Similarly, the group from Serbia is politically attached to a Eurocentrist worldview.

The list includes, for example, an NGO supported by American investors and German and American academics in places like Ukraine.

The promise that these are non-partisan sources is a nice garuntee that it is neither Democrat nor Republican. Unfortunately in many controversial political situations, there are far more opinions and perspectives than those shared by Republicans and Democrats.

Given that Facebook has been accused of being a front for American political imperialism, I don't think this list of "truth deciders" filled with American investors and groups that have American intelligence and State Department support is going to improve things. At the very least it looks bad.

</comment><comment><USER4> The current list of fact checkers:

1\. ABC News (USA) Added Dec. 13th

2\. Africa Check (South Africa, Senegal and Kenya)

3\. Agência Lupa (Brazil)

4\. Agência Pública - Truco (Brazil) Added Sept. 16th

5\. Aos Fatos (Brazil)

6\. AP (USA) Added Dec. 15th

7\. Balkan Investigative Reporting Network Kosovo (Kosovo)

8\. Climate Feedback (USA) Added Dec. 5th

9\. Colombiacheck (Colombia) Added Nov. 11th

10\. Chequeado (Argentina)

11\. Demagog CZ (Czech Republic)

12\. Demagog PL (Poland)

13\. Doğruluk Payı (Turkey)

14\. El Deber Data (Bolivia)

15\. El Mercurio El Poligrafo (Chile)

16\. El Objetivo La Sexta (Spain)

17\. Factcheck.org (USA)

18\. FactCheck Georgia (Georgia)

19\. FactCheck Northern Ireland (UK)

20\. FactCheck-Ukraine (Ukraine)

21\. FactChecker.in (India)

22\. FactsCan (Canada)

23\. Faktabaari (Finland)

24\. Full Fact (UK)

25\. GKillCity.com (Ecuador)

26\. Internews Kosova (Kosovo)

27\. Istinomer (Serbia)

28\. Melu Detektors (Latvia) Added Sept. 26th

29\. Metamorphosis Foundation (Macedonia)

30\. Observador (Portugal)

31\. Ojo Publico (Peru)

32\. Pagella Politica (Italy)

33\. Pesa Check (Kenya)

34\. PolitiFact (USA)

35\. Snopes (USA)

36\. South Asia Check (Nepal)

37\. TheJournal.ie (Ireland)

38\. UY Check (Uruguay)

39\. Valheenpaljastaja (Finland)

40\. VERA Files Fact Check (Philippines) Added Sept. 19th

41\. VoxUkraine (Ukraine)

42\. The Washington Post Fact Checker (USA)

43\. Zašto ne Istinomjer (Bosnia & Herzegovina)

<comment><USER5> Nice to see a good mix of bipartisan sources. /s

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> No fact-checking system will be perfect, but the perfect should not be the enemy of the good. Is there a gray area of what constitutes fake news and what a valid fact-checking body is? Of course, but flags don't stop the discussion, they enable discussion. If someone wants to go ahead and post something knowing it will be flagged, they can also post their argument for why they think it is being wrongly flagged.

I am all for this. I've given up on posting snopes links to posts from friends who either tell me snopes is wrong or outright delete my comment. I live near DC, where a man recently opened fire in a restaurant because he read a fake news story that Hillary Clinton was running a child prostitution ring there. I'm sick of this. We are entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts.

The people in my feed who post fake news tend to be obnoxious and not very bright. It's a good customer service move to make the social network more pleasant. I know that the majority of my thoughtful friends on Facebook will greatly appreciate this.

<comment><USER4> During the Snowden Disclosures Facebook prevented me from posting direct links to the leaked documents and articles detailing their technical content.

I do not trust Facebook as an information steward, and feel that the solution is much more dangerous than the problem. I personally do not face many problems with fake news, but have suffered a great deal from propaganda, surveillance and censorship.

These solutions seem to double down on the costs, without offering a real benefit.

<comment><USER6> If FB outright banned your post and it did not contain graphic content, then that was wrong and an abuse on their part. But this modification isn't taking content down, they are adding a flag to posts identifying the source as suspect and, more importantly, why it is considered suspect. This is a much more transparent solution because we can see what FB is flagging, why it is being flagged, and openly discuss whether the flag is fair or not.

<comment><USER4> Right, now they may possibly allow me to post the Snowden documents or let's say a report from SANA about a successful campaign to save people from terrorist captors.

But it could be marked by a stamp basically telling people: "Don't look at this. Don't take it seriously." People will be trained not to click on the reason for why, and they won't have the context to - as it was the case when the Snowden Documents were first coming out - differentiate "This post was marked fake news because the government engages in 'bulk collection' NOT 'mass surveillance'" from an legitimate reason to pariah the post and poster.

The type of influence this gives Facebook as a provider is one of scale, not one of instance. If large numbers of people are discouraged from engaging with certain ideas while each individual case has to be litigated individually and during a time later when the news and narrative making is already completed and people have moved on, it's a serious problem.

I would criticize China if they intended to put branding marks on reporting, analysis and posts that they don't consider trustworthy or factual.

It is this same criticality that I aim at Facebook and the United States. There are other, better solutions. I looked at the list of 'fact-checkers'. They don't pass the sniff test.

Finally, there's no way Facebook is going to mark its advertising, partnered content and purchased 'likes' as fake. It's just not in the calculation.

I will agree with you however that the abuse of taking down posts or ranking them so that nobody sees them (another issue I've encountered) is 'worse' in its immediate affect. Though I think it's more explicit. I can talk to other people who have had their posts censored and it isn't deniable.

This solution, on the other hand, is extremely deniable.

I don't like having to pick between two poisons. I've had quite enough of that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This would only work if news were a mere presentation of facts.

I'm afraid this will be used not the way its intended, but to silence and discredit any opposition to e.g. government's agenda.

</comment><comment><USER8> Meanwhile, they will continue to saturate your feed with ads for fake _products_... especially counterfeits.

</comment><comment><USER9> Would business insider pass?

</comment><comment><USER10> So the onion will be marked fake correct?</comment>


Ask HN: Managing significant-other relationships as a startup founder. Advice? - <AUTHOR> I know HN is not the place for relationship advice, but I imagine I'm not the only founder who has struggle with the constant balancing act between "what's best for my relationship" vs "whats best for my business" - because I find they are often at odds.<p>At the end of the day, what my girlfriend wants is to feel valued, important and like she comes first. I tell her she comes first, but in reality we both know that's not true. The company comes first and the people I am responsible for as the CEO come first. She comes in at a close second, but in the words of Ricky Bobby "if you're not first, your last" is how I imagine she feels about it at the end of the day. <comment><USER2> I need to preface this with a disclaimer -- my first serious startup (which was very successful from a business point of view) cost me my marriage. The reason was that I worked 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for about 5 years. Very few relationships can withstand that level of neglect.

So, my advice is coming from failure, not success. I can't claim that I know how to do this right, but I've taken away some lessons from that failure, and I have subsequently been able to start and run businesses without damaging my relationships.

First, kudos to you for facing up to this issue right up front. That's more important than you may think. And you're 100% right: your girlfriend -- like literally everybody -- needs to feel valued and important. If you consider that relationship to be important, she really does need to come first! Your business should come second. Do not lose sight of that order of priority.

Your business should be the close second because taking care of your personal life cannot be separated from taking care of your business. If your personal life is struggling then that will inevitably have an adverse impact on your performance at the startup. Also, it's very rare that the business actually has to come first in terms of where you spend your time and energy (as in, making it a close second is unlikely to make a meaningful difference to your business -- but it is very likely to make a meaningful difference to your significant other).

What I do these days is to prioritize a block of time that is exclusively to be used with friends and family -- and especially my significant other. This time doesn't have to be a large percentage, but it has to be inviolable. No matter what else is happening, that time is devoted to my loved ones.

Carving out time for her and her alone (even if it's only an evening per week) tangibly demonstrates that you value her and consider her important. I think that you may also find that the more you demonstrate her importance to you through action, the more she'll be willing to give to help you in your business activities. You may be surprised at how much crap your significant other is willing to put up with so long as she truly knows that she's more important.

Also, (if this is a very serious relationship) she needs to be your partner in your business activities just as with the rest of your life. Not necessarily in a legal sense, but when business-related decisions have to be made that will impact her, you should include her in the decision-making. Act as a team. This will likely give her a greater sense of security.

In the end, try imagining what it would be like to be in her shoes. How would you feel if she were the one in the startup and you were the one affected by it? What would increase your comfort and happiness? How would you like her to behave? The odds are that's pretty close to how she feels. And don't forget that she'll be sacrificing things for you in this endeavor. Make sure that those sacrifices are not a loss to her, but rather are an investment that she'll get returns on.

EDIT: I feel I should add another thing... you should communicate fully, honestly, and continually with her. Tell her what's happening with the business. When things look dire (and they will), resist the urge to hide it from her. When things are looking great (and they will), share that to the same degree. When people have to guess what's going on, they will tend to imagine things that are far worse than the reality -- so make sure she always knows the reality.

<comment><AUTHOR> John...wow. Thank you.

Responses like this, from people like you, who have been in similarly difficult positions are what make the HN community so powerful.

I'm sorry to hear that your first marriage didn't work out, but if it's any consolation, sharing this message and your story has the power to do a tremendous amount of good for people. It already has for me.

In my opinion, I don't think there is enough discourse on this topic amongst the startup community. Just as mental health was 10 years ago, I think this difficulty in balancing personal relationships vs startups is something that bubbles very close the surface for many founders, but is seldom talked about outside of closed circles (if at all).

Regarding your comments specifically, basically everything you said hit home for me. In particular, your point about including her in decision making and treating her like a partner is really excellent. I think that that is a big part of what I have been missing up to this point. I tell her she is my partner and try to treat her us such, but then make business decisions independently of her, which I thought was the right thing to do, but in fact it likely actually undermines and corrodes her feelings of partnership.

Thanks again. I think what you just shared with me above would make for a great essay that many others could benefit from. I worry the wisdom you've shared here will be lost to the depth of HN, never to be seen by those (like me) who need it.

\- Alan

<comment><USER2> I'm so glad that my meager words were of help to you.

I agree, this is an issue that we don't talk about nearly enough. I think this is a very common problem, and hearing other people's experiences handling it, both the good and the bad, can help everybody.</comment></comment></comment>


What happens to a mail-order mattress after you return it - <AUTHOR> https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-happens-to-your-mail-order-mattress-after-you-return-it/ <comment><USER2> I'd thought I'd get around the madness of mattress shopping by using just the technique mentioned in the article here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22377160](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22377160)

At least, until I found something I liked. I purchased a Purple 3, thinking that if I loved it, I'd just stick with it. I _did_ love it, but I couldn't justify spending $2k on a twin(!). I returned it, and purchased from another company for ~$700. I didn't like it as much as the Purple, but when I went to begin the return, I was told that there _was_ no return process, and that I could "move the mattress to a different room, or donate it." Two days later, I received a refund for the full purchase amount. That ended my journey; no awesome mattress at any price beats "decent and free."

As much as I appreciate getting a new mattress for zilch, the experience made me extremely wary. Was my mattress so cheaply-made that the manufacturer could afford to give them away? What was up? So I did some research. It turns out that the mattress industry is a racket. The markups are ludicrous; almost every mattress on the market costs, at most, a few hundred dollars to make. And then it's also impossible to comparison shop because "models" differ based on retailer by one or two small features; that means no price-matching, if you can even tell what you're buying.

These are the kinds of things that make people suspicious of the way the economy is set up. It should be easy to find out what you're purchasing, and then to pay a fair price for it. Instead you have entire manufacturing-retail chains built on obfuscation and able to eat untold amounts in lost product.

<comment><USER3> I didn't read the article but I've worked for one of these companies that was a startup and have a local mattress company as a client. So a little perspective.

These companies are all marketing companies. There is no "science" they literally get rolls of foam from foam makers, throw them on in layers and try to find the right combo. I was there, I've done it myself.

The companies that end up winning have fantastic marketing, like purple, or were early, like Casper.

Markup for foam mattresses in general is close to 2000%. Average foam cost for a king mattress was <$50. The old school mattress companies are close to The same which is why they have stores on every corner.

The industry is dirty as hell and as cut throat as they come.

As far as the returns, a reputable company will send the Salvation Army or local equivalent to pick up the mattress and it becomes a tax write off for the company. Otherwise like others have said they will tell you to keep it. No sense bringing it back to the warehouse and in a lot of places it is illegal to resell a mattress.

AMA if you want. Fascinating industry.

<comment><USER4> How should people buy mattresses, or mattress-like products, to avoid this 2000% markup?

<comment><USER5> IKEA for example sells a lot of mattresses under 150$. Under that you can just by foam pads, but the biggest savings is simply avoiding mattress stores or companies.

If you like pillow tops or those egg shell foam pads you can also just buy them separately.

<comment><USER6> I've slept on a 150 dollar Ikea for years and I've slept on a leesa. Maybe these conspiracy theories are true, but the Leesa is much more comfortable than the cheap Ikea. Ikea also has more expensive substantial mattress options, but it looks like they approach the same price range anyway. So what's your real suggestion then? Sleep on the floor in a sleeping bag?

<comment><USER5> Personal preference does not make any option objectively better. So, my suggestion is to explore your options. I enjoy a 4" foam pad on plywood over several thousand dollar mattresses, but it's not a question of cost just comfort. Water beds are another cheap option that have largely fallen out of favor.

PS: Body weight is a huge part of this. Gain or lose significant weight and your preference is likely to change.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Get a firm or very firm innerspring mattress from IKEA. You can do this for less than $300 and it will fit in the back of a sedan in it's roll-up-package.

Sleep on it for a bit. If you don't like the feel, which you probably won't, add a memory foam mattress topper for ~$50. Use a thicker or thinner topper to suit your needs.

Congrats! Because your mattress is firm, its foam will not break down for a long, long time. Sleep easy knowing you didn't waste stupid amounts of money and that your mattress will last essentially forever.

<comment><USER8> Not sure this is good advice. I like a firm mattress, but IKEA mattresses are absolutely terrible. I also cannot sleep with a foam topper on any bed. They're hot and screw up my back beyond belief.

<comment><USER9> Ikea sells different types of mattress (spring, foam, latex), each with different thicknesses and price points.

I've bought ~10 Ikea mattresses, avoided the cheapest ones of each type, and been pretty happy.

I can understand why a foam topper would feel hot. It's main purpose is to provide a sleeping surface that's the same shape as your body, so of course this means it maximises the amount of contact between you and itself. So no space for air to circulate

But I don't understand how a foam topper can screw up your back, unless your mattress is too soft to begin with. A bad/cheap foam topper will compress pretty easily, and provide no additional support, but I don't see what harm it would do.

<comment><USER10> >I've bought ~10 Ikea mattresses, avoided the cheapest ones of each type, and been pretty happy.

You've bought _ten_ mattresses from them?! In how many years, and for how many people?

I don't think my parents bought ten mattresses in the 20-odd years they had their four kids living at home - and I still sleep on one of them.

Personally I don't trust anything from Ikea anymore. Their quality is such garbage for all their products from furniture to glassware to lamps, I can't give them a dime of my money knowing whatever I buy won't be around next year. Multiply whatever you were going to spend by 1.5 and go to a decent home store, or just go to Target instead.

<comment><USER9> "You've bought ten mattresses from them?! In how many years, and for how many people?"

In ~20 years. Most are still in use. Some were for my parents, for guest rooms and for flats that ended up being rental properties. I bought two mattresses last year, as we moved to the US from China (which has different bed sizes).

"Their quality is such garbage for all their products from furniture to glassware to lamps"

This is an overstatement. I and my family members have several Pax wardrobes that are still going strong after 20 years. And several Malm dressers that have lasted over 10 years. As long you assemble and install the things correctly, and make sure they're straight, then there's no reason they shouldn't last.

There _are_ Ikea dressers which are less sturdy than the Malm, because the drawer runners are weak ball-bearing style ones, instead of the wheely ones on the Malm. (Ball bearing runners can be great, but the ones I've seen on Ikea dressers aren't designed to carry much load.)

<comment><USER11> I've found a couple of patterns with IKEA. They'll often have two virtually identical products, with overall quality and material being the only difference (particleboard vs. real wood, usually). Also, the main drawback is often the loose tolerances that lead to a given piece not always fitting together as well as it should.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> FWIW I had a Leesa and ended up returning it. That went fine and dandy, everything worked as they promised with no frills.

What I actually want to share with you all here is to go to a mom-n-pop mattress store in your local area. Find your local mattress NERD and buy a bed from them. They're going to have all kinds of wild stuff you can try and will do a great job of selling you the right bed for you (and your partner).

My wife and I ended up finding this guy - [https://www.youtube.com/user/MattressToGo](https://www.youtube.com/user/MattressToGo) \- and watching some of his (surprisingly popular) videos you will see he is legitimately a mattress nerd.

Coincidentally we lived about an hour from his brick and mortar location so we drove out to check out the showroom and ended up buying a mattress on the spot. It took a few days to arrive but it's without a doubt my favorite mattress.

I love the convenience afforded by these modern startup companies but there is really something to be said for going to someone who has made one thing their entire life's misson and letting them help you out.

<comment><USER13> I have a Leesa and don't love it, but I've had it over a year now, so can't return it. I didn't realize "mom-n-pop mattress stores" existed -- how would one find one?

I ended up with an online-mattress purchase because of a poor experience with both a Mattress Firm store (pushy salespeople) and most obnoxiously with a specific manufacturer, Simmons. I stayed at an AirBnB in SF years ago and the bed was noticeably the most comfortable bed I've ever slept on. I messaged the host _years_ later and asked him what type of bed it was, and to my surprise and delight, he messaged me back with text and images of the tags on the mattress. When I tried contacting Simmons by phone, email, and even Facebook Message, telling them I would BUY that mattress, no matter the cost, if they could point me in the right direction, I got nowhere and was made to feel like I was a bother. So while it's easy for me to believe that these online mattress companies are marketing companies glueing foam together, maybe this is what we needed to make an outdated industry improve.

<comment><USER14> > how would one find one?

Mattress Underground's explanation of local manufacturers is a good start: [https://www.themattressunderground.com/the- industry/manufact...](https://www.themattressunderground.com/the- industry/manufacturers/local.html). Their forum also has Q&A about specific cities.

The rest of their tutorials are as good as any online: [https://www.themattressunderground.com/the- industry/industry...](https://www.themattressunderground.com/the- industry/industry.html), [https://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/mattress.h...](https://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/mattress.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Returns on bulky items are a mess.

I ordered a fridge and dishwasher from Costco. They were scuffed up during delivery.

Costco asked me to bear with them... send pictures... write up a report...

Once Costco was able to stick the delivery company for the bill, they sent me a new set. They didn't care about the original set.

At one point a guy showed up in a pickup. No uniform. Not in a delivery van, or truck. Just a guy with a dolly and a beat-up F150. He said, "I'm here for the old fridge."

When he saw they were new appliances, he was like, "Yeah, {the original delivery company} told me to take them to the dump... let me sell them, I'll come back with a U-Haul." And he kept texting and setting times and not showing. I had a Fridge and Dishwasher in my living room for over a month.

I asked Costco what was up... I asked them to get it take care of ASAP... they were like, "Uh... I mean, I guess we can... or you can just sell them..."

In the end I sold them to a neighbor, for half what I paid... he called the brand repair place and ordered a new door. Which is all I was expecting anyone to do in the first place.

</comment><comment><USER16> I never liked the space a bed takes up so I decided to look into alternatives some years ago when it started to offer less support.

I always had a futon so I immediately switched to that. I also bought a cheap hammock and built some hammock stands to use it indoors.

I didn't have any problems adjusting to the futon; that's what I sleep on most of the time today. I'm also pretty sure I'd have no problems with a japanese style roll up beds either (it's basically like a futon anyway).

Hammocking, though, took a bit longer. I really wanted to make it work too. To make a long story short, my initial hammock was too short and now I do have a hammock I can sleep soundly in (which I do every now and then).

I was also initially interested on trying to train myself to sleep on a flat floor... but, ummm, that did not go well and I've never returned to trying. Maybe...

<comment><USER17> I slept on a hammock for years indoors slung between two huge hooks I screwed into my walls.

It took a couple weeks before I fully adjusted. One nice thing is that when I went camping or on a three month bike trip, I had my every-night bed with me! It felt so luxurious!

I loved it, and if I was single, I'd still be sleeping in a hammock every night.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> This isn't exclusive to mail order mattresses.

I went to a big-name department store just last week and bought a mattress. For the first time, I chose a "memory foam" mattress because I liked how it felt in the store. (Thought the traditional spring mattress felt more familiar and "right," there's something about the foam that was nice.)

When the giant delivery truck arrived three days later, there was the usual box spring, which I guess is what necessitated the truck, but then the delivery guys brought in a small box the size of a chair and that's what contained the shrunken mattress.

I asked what happens to the mattress if I decide that memory foam isn't for me after all, and they said it depends on the brand. Some go to charity, some go to an exporter for resale overseas, and some get shredded and made into new mattresses.

<comment><USER19> Be careful with brick and mortar mattress stores (although you said department store). Many will have "restocking" type fees for returning a mattress.

<comment><USER18> I asked about that. The only thing I would have to pay is the same delivery fee again for the truck to pick up the old mattress set (reasonable, IMO), and the price difference if I chose to replace it with a more expensive set.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> _"In California, a lot of charities can't accept a used mattress,"_

So those in need of mattresses don't get them and more likely to go to landfill... regardless of condition.

Are used mattresses really that risky? Are charities themselves not able to make a reasonable judgement call on what they accept?

<comment><USER21> It's risky for the charity. For instance, if the mattress has bedbugs, it stands a good chance of contaminating everything they've got in storage, requiring them to purge their entire inventory, sanitize, and build up from scratch again.

<comment><USER22> Can't they set up an offsite hotbox to get rid of the bedbugs before it gets onsite? Surely someone could set up a mobile truck that can come, park, and heat up 15 mattresses for the few hours it takes to kill or drive off the bedbugs, no?

<comment><USER23> > Can't they set up an offsite hotbox to get rid of the bedbugs before it gets > onsite? I am not sure if you are serious or not, maybe you think charities > have huge amounts of money to throw at all problems like Google does?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I bought a Purple mattress a few years ago. It was debilitatingly uncomfortable. After three nights I gave up and called them for a return. Their customer service spent quite a long time trying to convince me to keep trying: their pitch/theory was that their mattress is so extremely comfortable and all other mattresses are so extremely uncomfortable that the body gets used to that discomfort and it will take a few weeks or more to switch over to accepting the comfort of Purple. After repeatedly saying no thank you and eventually having to explain to them quite bluntly that their theory was complete horseshit, they processed the return... the "return" was a Salvation Army truck, which, when it arrived, already had two brand new Casper mattresses in it. I asked the guys in the truck if this was normal and they said "yeah, we get at least 1-2 of these every day".

FWIW, I bought an IKEA foam mattress + memory foam topper for about 1/3rd of what the Purple cost and it's been very comfortable for a few years now.

</comment><comment><USER25> I bought a foam mattress off amazon canada.

Decided to return it.

Surprisingly amazon.ca doesnt offer large item pickup like USA, and expected to return a king size expanded 10" thick foam mattress to the local post office.

I called them asking wtf, how am I supposed to return it.

They gave a me refund, and told me donate destroy it myself or even just keep it.

I decided to keep it

</comment><comment><USER26> Online shopping is not that sustainable. Current concerns are returns. First you have the carbon emissions of the first package delivery then the return package carbon emissions plus the waste. The waste comes that is more expensive to handle return products than to simply throw them.

What I mean it's more eco friendly to have big batch shipments to stores than individual small packages sent by post.

A normal physical store is usually more environmentally friendly than online shopping.

<comment><USER27> No, driving the SUV to the store usually uses more fuel than the entire supply chain to get to the store.

<comment><USER28> ... unless you choose two day shipping. Or so I've read.

(Two day often involves air freight instead of trucks)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I like companies like Sharetown, they help prevent things from just ending up in a landfill and they make money doing it. There's a computer recycling company near me that does pretty well reselling equipment sent to them for recycling. They destroy drives when instructed to, but will wipe the rest and resell intact running servers and workstations.

It's nice working with them because I know the equipment will most likely find a home.

</comment><comment><USER30> I bought one of these over a decade ago from Costco. It had a defect in it but I never really pursued returning it. I had no clue how I'd get it out of my house by myself. Use a chainsaw or machete to cut it into blocks and then toss it out the window and then take it to the dump? It was really heavy. Much heavier than normal mattresses. At least it seemed much more flexible to bend around corners.

<comment><USER31> I once had a loveseat that I couldn't get out of a studio apartment without moving almost everything. Since I was a bit bored at the time, I slowly carved up the entire thing with a Swiss Army knife w/ the saw & scissors extensions. Was actually kind of fun.

<comment><USER32> In Edinburgh, Scotland, in the 1970s, a friend of mine inherited a flat and contents but no money. It was an extremely cold winter and he ended up chopping half the furniture to pieces (it was the typical hideous stuff you got in flats in Edinburgh back then) and burning it in the fire-place to keep warm.

<comment><USER33> Probably mostly natural materials.

That'd be risky now.

<comment> dan-robertson At least in Europe most furniture uses fire retardant materials. But the chipboard that lots of things are made of will burn ok if you get it hot enough

<comment><USER33> I'm thinking plastics in everything: foams, fabrics, coverings, resins, glues. Even fasteners and structure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Abuse of these mattress return policies is also incentivized when new online mattress companies are popping up every month.

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/unintended-perk-of-the- online-m...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/unintended-perk-of-the-online- mattress-boom-never-ending-free-trials-11575474415)

</comment><comment><USER35> Forgive me if this is off-topic. I am currently in the market for a queen size mattress in a box. The last one that I bought on Amazon was perfect, it cost about $300. [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F8NNL8X](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07F8NNL8X) It is no longer available. Now it seems that you can get a decent one for under $250. Here are some that I found:

Ashley: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0777K9RGX](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0777K9RGX)

Vibe: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074NDQ143](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074NDQ143)

PrimaSleep: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075T6BNC2](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075T6BNC2)

Anyone here have any suggestions?

<comment><USER36> I have the AmazonBasics mattress: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07C49ZPQG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07C49ZPQG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

It's my guest room mattress but I do sleep in the guest room occasionally, and when I do I sleep better than my normal mattress. That said, the edge support isn't great. Being close to the edge makes it feel almost like you're at a slight slope. Still, no regrets for $250.

Edit: I'm 6ft / 165 lb. It's possible that it would be less supportive for heavier weights.

<comment><USER19> I agree with the edge support and foam mattresses. A friend of mine asked me about whether he should recommend a foam mattress for his grandparents. I specifically said no because of the edge support. I fear someone with mobility issues might not be able to support themselves if they were to sit on the corner.

<comment><USER36> FWIW, my main mattress is also foam (Leesa) and seems to have good edge support. But the Leesa was a lot more expensive than the Amazon mattress, and I wanted to spend less since it was a guest room.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I know this is about mail-order mattress companies. I have always thought that one of these Mattress store chains are going to be busted for being involved in a drug ring or something like that. There are way more locations than there needs to be. Especially with all of these online mattress brands popping up. There always seems to be 1 guy working and no one in the stores, ever. At any of these locations. I don't understand how a business model like that can last. But they're still kickin'

<comment><USER38> At least around the salt lake Utah area those stores go out of business all the time.

<comment><USER39> Why are they started in the first place? Where do people get the capital to start a type of business that's observably likely to fail?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> It feels like there might be other possibly uses of old or unwanted foam mattresses. Perhaps they can be cut down to standard sizes for home insulation batting? As insulation between raised garden bed containers and the ground? Insulation between the ground and a fish tank in an aquaponics setup?

While there might be better solutions for all of those things, if these materials are going to end up in the landfill and can be provided for almost no cost, it seems like a waste to not utilize the resource.

<comment><USER41> Although it's a bit of work to cut the foam layers into hundreds of little blocks, you can turn an unwanted foam mattress into a decent bean bag.

<comment><USER42> I wonder if you could get the same result by throwing it in a woodchipper and bagging the mattress-mulch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> The Guardian recently had a long-ish article [1] on the state of mattress recycling and the economics of buying online. Its a fairly depressing read: these things are super-hard to recycle effectively and just get dumped like toxic waste:

 _" The mattresses these criminals can't resell, they fly-tip – Circom has had mattresses dumped outside its warehouse – or dump in landfill. In some cases, fraudsters have been known to rent a shed from an unsuspecting landlord, fill it to the brim with mattresses – and scarper. "There are loads of fake companies out there filling up sheds," agrees Ray Bagnall, of Matt UK, another mattress recycler. "Dumping them on farms in Sussex or Essex." He was recently called to clear out a shed full of thousands of mattresses in Snowdonia."_

It would be nice to think that a vendor making low environmental impact mattresses would effectively disrupt the market, but it just doesn't seem likely.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/mattress...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/12/mattress- landfill-crisis-recycling-nightmare)

</comment><comment><USER44> In some countries, you get the mattress inside an airtight/watertight packaging, and you only get a refund if you return it (yourself or for some shipping cost) while still in that packaging.

This means you can only get a feel for the softness/hardness but not breathability (due to the packaging). On the other hand, it means prices are sane.

Personally, I prefer this system to the US one, where the ethical purchasers subsidize the unethical purchasers and unethical, greedy sellers. YMMV.

</comment><comment><USER45> Being thoughtful about the environment is important. It's important to mention that some bed in a box realtors aren't doing the best they can. Gotta Sleep uses bio foam which is made with soy based oils and donates all returned mattresses. [https://gottasleep.com/products/omg- mattress](https://gottasleep.com/products/omg-mattress)

</comment><comment><USER46> I love this. I've always thought their guarantee was meaningless because almost nobody is going to actually mail back a mattress.

<comment><USER47> Some of the guarantees, at least when I looked a few years ago, include pickup for return. Presumably (cf article) not to original location; but still, hard to image something more zero risk than this.

With something like a 120 day no-questions asked, no risk return I think they are more relying on you getting used to it in that amount of time. And huge markup means they can eat quite a few too, I suppose.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> "Cheap" spring mattress + foam pad + down/pillow-top layer is the best mattress purchase decision you can make. My queen set is under $300 and more comfortable than ~20 other fancy mattresses I tried, some as high as $2500. And it's "upgradable" and adjustable without needed to toss the whole thing.

</comment><comment><USER49> Presumably the return policies will change once there are no more brick and mortar local mattress stores to buy from.

At that point, you'll _only_ be able to buy online, and they won't need to offer returns. You have no choice but to have _something_ delivered, or go without a mattress (my personal preference).

<comment><USER50> what's your sleeping situation like w/o a mattress?

(I'm waiting for someone to invent & sell some sort of sleeping pod that provides a perfect environment, and keeps me in ideal position for the maximum sleep benefit)

<comment><USER49> I mostly just sleep on an area rug with a head pillow and blankets, sleeping on anything significantly more compliant just bothers my neck and back.

You can achieve very similar results with a more elaborate arrangement by going traditional Japanese style, check out tatami mats if curious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Now I can finally feel like a smug eco-warrior by sleeping on the same queen mattress I used as a teenager.

In all seriousness though, these companies should make it easier to put their mattresses back in their box, especially if it means they could avoid something like this. I seem to recall my old air mattress could easily be deflated by running the pump in reverse, fitting in a tiny bag. Would it be too hard to have a re-compression pump that could be shipped back for a rebate with shipping included if you decide to keep the mattress? Re-compressing the mattresses would probably also make it easier to cram a bunch of them into some sort of extreme-temperature vault so any bedbugs or other pests could be exterminated before re-use.

<comment><USER52> It appears to take a fairly substantial press/vacuum sealer to squash these down, get them into their plastic bag so they don't explode, and roll them into a tight cylinder.

[https://sleepdelivered.com/bed-in-a-box-mattresses- packing/](https://sleepdelivered.com/bed-in-a-box-mattresses-packing/)

This machine looks pretty elaborate -- not sure that you are going to get a consumer version.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I bought a firm mattress from IKEA and it's been great. These companies doing trials and returns sound like a scam to rope in people who like 'free' stuff.

The mattress market is a pure scam.

</comment><comment><USER54> If you ever need one of these mattresses, lemme know. I contract to pick them up.

</comment><comment><USER54> If you ever want one of these open box returns, lemme know. I can hook you up.

</comment><comment><USER55> A mail-order mattress company advertises via fivethirtyeight so I wonder if this out-of-place piece is partly fuelled by that advertising effort.

</comment><comment><USER56> At the returns department of the company I work for they use the returned mattresses to clean the floor. The put the forklift prongs inside the mattress and drive around to clean up the warehouse.

</comment><comment><USER57> Mattress shopping is almost as bad as car shopping. I'll buy a used car to get around the sleazy car sales people, but the wife absolutely won't go for a used matresss.

I'm sure the mattress markup is astronomical, and I'm sure most brands come from the same factories.

<comment><USER58> I'm also somewhat suspicious that foam mattresses are quite bad for your health, not necessarily from a sleep mechanics perspective, but from an air quality one. I mean you are literally sleeping on a piece of plastic that is optimized for surface area. You then squish it constantly while using it and inhale those aerosolized plastic particles for about 8 hours per day.

<comment><USER59> There are latex foam mattresses. I've purchased two from Sleep on Latex (sleeponlatex.com, or Pure Green on Amazon).

That said, whether latex, polyurethane, or whatever, with foam mattresses you're supposed to use a mattress protector to prevent sweat and accidents from soiling the foam. Alternatively or in addition to that, Sleep on Latex uses a wool topper, as I'm sure many other brands do. And then on top of that most people use sheets. I would think all of that covering would trap any particles so they can conveniently be washed out to sea with all the other microplastics from the laundry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I gotta admit, there's one tiny bit of this that I think is kinda cool: the secondary "Sharetown" ecosystem does sound like an "afterburner" of sorts for unused product, and I much rather see products be up-or-re-cycled than tossed in landfill. I think there is a much larger market for this, especially as TFA says about the huge increase in returns.

</comment><comment><USER61> It's amazing anyone buys used mattresses. The likelihood of getting bedbugs and pounds of a stranger's skin flakes is very high. Gross!

<comment><USER62> A hotel is basically a gigantic used mattress store with massive churn.

<comment><USER63> Hehe, true, but supposedly _the room_ is somewhat sanitized.

There's an old Dutch saying "in de aap gelogeerd zijn". It means you got got scammed / got tricked / are in trouble. Literally, it means you "stayed at the ape".

As the story goes, the original meaning is that there was a hotel in Amsterdam (at Zeedijk 1) which was called "'t Aepjen" (old Dutch for "the ape"), where you stayed. Because Dutch East India Company (VOC) seamen couldn't pay their bills they paid with an ape. So if someone who was scratching themselves, the question was raised: "did you stay in 't Aepjen" (or in Dutch "ben je in de aap gelogeerd?").

Another version is that it was a pub (the oldest one in Amsterdam) where drunks met, and recruiters took advantage of this to get people to sign contracts (to subscribe for VOC).

[1] [https://historiek.net/in-de-aap-gelogeerd- zijn/60549/](https://historiek.net/in-de-aap-gelogeerd-zijn/60549/)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Review my startup: Hipstaroid: Retro Photos for Facebook - <AUTHOR>

http://hipstaroid.com/ Why?
Inspired by a lot of the retro photos I see being posted from iPhones I decided to enable retro photos for existing Facebook photos. Uses the Facebook photo tags to tag the 'polaroid' with sharpie.
API? Yes, there is an API if you want to use this for other things. I'm planning on making a non-Facebook interface. Anyway for the API use the following:

  http://hipstaroid.com/hipstaroid?img=<url>&caption=<your caption>
 <comment><USER2> Interesting idea! A couple things to think about...

1) The image on your front page has some pretty bad compression artifacts, which is kind of a turn off.

2) It would be cool to allow color effects, like sepia or black and white.

3) Simple design is great. You may want to add a little more to your design, though, to make this feel like a more solid app.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I turned the jpeg quality down to 30 to save bandwidth will definitely crank it up to 60 now.

Yeah design needs some work, started writing this on Friday.

Thanks for the heads up on those issues.

<comment><USER3> Imho, your product are these generate pictures. Don't save on them. Deliver these picture on high quality!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Link: <http://hipstaroid.com/></comment>


Helium Raises $17 Million, Lays Off 30 Percent of Employees - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/10/27/helium-raises-17-million-lays-off-30-percent-of-employees/

<comment><USER2> "The best articles are voted to the top by the community, but in a way that makes it difficult to game the system. Instead of being able to vote up your own articles or those written by your friends, readers are given a random sample of articles and asked to compare them in pairs. This A-B approach filters the best articles to the homepage."

This is cool; variations are used by recaptcha, etc. I wonder if this could be used by digg? Increasing the quality/reducing gaming of community-based ranking seems like a very good idea.</comment>


Facebook prevents 104-year-old woman from revealing her age - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57570522-71/facebook-prevents-104-year-old-woman-from-revealing-her-age/ <comment><USER2> If the Facebook infra doesn't know about this problem, then it is a serious bug, If FB does it intentionally then it's just stupid.

<comment><AUTHOR> >>However, now that the publicity machine has cranked up enough noise to reach Facebook's ears, the company issued a statement: 'We've recently discovered an issue whereby some Facebook users may be unable to enter a birthday before 1910. We are working on a fix for this and we apologize for the inconvenience.'

I believe Facebook is just going to do exactly nothing about it. It's not going to affect their bottom line at all.</comment></comment>


George Clinton: Life lessons from a funked-up superstar - <AUTHOR> http://www.huckmagazine.com/art-and-culture/music-2/life-lessons-george-clinton-pioneer-interview-parliament-funkadelic/ <comment><USER2> Just going to leave this here. I've watched it at least five times at this point and it never ceases to astonish me.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aHD5ruSZ0](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5aHD5ruSZ0)

<comment><USER3> Aw man so many good moments here. Love the groove starting at 26:31. Eddie Hazel RIP. I view funk in the 1970s as a natural extension of big band jazz, and Parliament Funkadelic was _the_ epitome of that. Jazz is the teacher, and funk is the preacher. Thanks for sharing this!

<comment><USER2> What I love about that video is how much fun they seem to be having. The music is amazing. The costumes and act are crazy. And they make it look so effortless. The album versions of these songs don't quite approach the energy of this concert.

This video gets removed from YouTube from time to time I guess due to copyright but someone always puts it back up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Thank you for this.

Maybe some people will find it off-topic. But, talk about hacking the music scene...

Somewhat OT and different genre, but a couple of years ago, archive.org put effort into onlining especially early Hip Hop recordings.

[https://archive.org/details/hiphopmixtapes](https://archive.org/details/hiphopmixtapes)

My (white, suburban) roommate was into this, big time. I didn't get it, although funk just reached down inside me and grabbed something, when I heard it.

Years, decades later, the story is finally getting to me without the contemporary cultural reprobation. (I've come to find the reprobation and its sources perhaps more false and damaging, than the [choose your own pejorative adjectives] genre and culture, itself.)

</comment><comment><USER5> I was so happy to see the "mothership" in the first room of the music section in the amazing Smithsonian National Museum of African American History & Culture. Make my funk the P-Funk!

</comment><comment><USER6> I hold Parliament quite high in my musical universe. Am very happy to see this on the front page.

It sounds childlike crazy but the subtle and deep groove these guys delivered is of a rare grade.

</comment><comment><USER7> I love Parliament-Funkadelic. My faves are _Mothership Connection_ , _Maggot Brain_ (Eddie Hazel's guitar playing is amazing), and _One Nation Under a Groove_.

I also had _Motor Booty Affair_ on vinyl, and the photo of the back cover reminds me of staring at that album sleeve while listening to the record and thinking, "OK, only drugs could have inspired that."

</comment><comment><USER8> >> He had an ability to arrange things in his mind exactly as he wanted. To me, that made him easy to work with.

This was nice to read.

<comment> mark-r Prince was amazing. Unfortunately even though I live 3 miles from Paisley Park I never met him.

I did work with someone who bumped into George Clinton once when he was in town to see Prince. He had nothing but good things to say about the encounter, but it was long enough ago that I can't remember any particulars.

Our company mascot was the Atomic Dog.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is my favorite George Clinton track.

Ain't That Peculiar feat. Sly Stone, El Debarge & the P-Funk All Stars

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5vu9eNMKgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5vu9eNMKgQ)

<comment><USER10> That's a fun Marvin Gaye cover, but doesn't have a ton of personality compared to the classic 70s Parliament/Funkadelic records, wouldn't you say?

<comment><USER9> To my ears, it's got a serious groove. Certainly very understated compared to Parliament/Funkadelic, but that's part of the charm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > The closest thing to a rule was not letting talent outta the room!

What a powerful and simple rule. I wonder how it works at scale, but makes so much sense in that industry.

</comment><comment><USER12> I saw them once in concert. They played like, 4 hours long. Unbelieveable. They were rotating some musicians during the show!</comment>


Henri Bergson, Celebrity - <AUTHOR> https://aeon.co/essays/henri-bergson-the-philosopher-damned-for-his-female-fans <comment><USER2> I found this very illuminating. I had never heard of Bergson until a few weeks ago, when I read Naguib Mahfouz's trilogy about family life in Cairo in the first half of the 20th century. These novels feature a (male) character who studies and writes about Bergson, and I wondered whether he was supposed to be a widely recognised subject of the time. Although Bergson appears to be popularly a sort of anti-rationalist, for the character in the novels his philosophy is a gateway away from the family's traditional Islam toward a rationalist view which distances him from the people around him. There is a mirror between these books and this article, in that the books are written from a masculine perspective and are ostensibly about a patriarch, but it is the women in the books who motivate much of the action.

<comment><USER3> > These novels feature a (male) character who studies and writes about > Bergson, and I wondered whether he was supposed to be a widely recognised > subject of the time.

He kind of was pretty popular in the 1920s and the 1930s, at least in francophile countries and on the European continent generally speaking (I suppose Egypt's intelligentsia from back in the day was heavily influenced by what was popular in mainland Europe). For example Emil Cioran [1] had his graduation thesis on Bergson.

I'm mentioning Cioran because I myself am Romanian and whenever I visit any bookstores outside of the country I usually check the philosophy shelves for Cioran's books, because I'm curious about his reception. Well, he's basically considered as one of their own in France, he's also pretty popular in Spain and in Italy (I mean, as popular as a guy writing about nothingness can be), I think I also found his books in Austria, but in London he is virtually unknown. I remember reading an interview in the Financial Times with a French billionaire, with the billionaire citing Cioran and with the interviewer (I suppose he was British) asking who that was.

What I'm trying to say it's that I find very interesting this distinction between mainland Europe vs UK + USA when it comes to books and the so-called "high culture". You'd think that 70+ years of mass consumption and Western mono-culture would have totally erased any differences by now but there are still some hold-outs.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Cioran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Cioran)

<comment><USER4> >Well, he's basically considered as one of their own in France

He's just as French as Chopin :)

>What I'm trying to say it's that I find very interesting this distinction between mainland Europe vs UK + USA when it comes to books and the so-called "high culture". You'd think that 70+ years of mass consumption and Western mono-culture would have totally erased any differences by now but there are still some hold-outs.

Established erudite culture, for lack of a better term, is less permeable to pop-culture. Strong cultural institutions are a good bulwark against acculturation. Churches played that role for a long time.</comment></comment></comment>


Infinite Gangnam Style - <AUTHOR> http://static.echonest.com/InfiniteGangnamStyle/ <comment><USER2> This is really awesome. They cut the entire song into one-beat segments of sound and video, and then categorized each beat by similarity to other beats in the song, and then after each beat there's a random chance that, instead of playing the next beat, the playback will transition to a different but similar-sounding beat from elsewhere in the song.

More info at the author's blogpost: <http://musicmachinery.com/2012/10/28/infinite-gangnam-style/>

<comment><USER3> Nice! If you want to explore the structure, you can control-click on a beat and it will only play the related beats.

From what I can tell, the color indicates the number of beats in the jump set. Black: 1, Blue: 2, and then more the redder it gets.

I can't figure out how to get out of that mode, though, other than to stop and restart it.

<comment><USER4> Just press the right arrow key once, and it will start playback again. Similarly, pressing the left arrow key will cause it to play beats in "reverse", which sounds like a totally different song in some sections.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is a very clever hack and I adore it for that, but it's also a sneaky statement about meaning, and I adore that too. It's like the literature world's cut-up/exquisite corpse work: if you can disassemble an original like this and put it back together in a way that we humans are inclined to extract meaning from, does that change the meaning that you perceive in the original work?

<comment><USER6> What's unique about Gangnam Style is that it's a cultural meme in America that isn't in English. It would be really interesting to see what sort of different sentiment this project would inspire if applied to a song where Americans could actually understand the lyrics and cultural references, or if it was shown to a South Korean audience.

<comment><USER7> >cultural meme in America that isn't in English

Yep, it would be interesting to read about things we miss - lyrics, and meaning of obvious references we don't get. For example, I think that dude in the elevator is an actor I saw in some movie, but I don't know if I'm correct. Obviously scene in sauna has some humorous meaning, but, again without lyrics it's unclear.

<comment><USER8> This blog[0] provides excellent context for the song, including subtitles for the song (overlaid on still shots) -- the last several seconds of the video will give you the names of the famous people with cameos.

[0] [http://mydearkorea.blogspot.ca/2012/08/korean-music-psys- gan...](http://mydearkorea.blogspot.ca/2012/08/korean-music-psys-gangnam- style-and.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> <http://static.echonest.com/InfiniteGangnamStyle/faq.html>

_Infinite Gangnam Style - Frequently Asked Questions_

 _What is this?_

\- Infinite Gangnam Style is a web app that dynamically generates an ever changing and never ending version of the song 'Gangnam Style' by Psy.

 _It never stops?_

\- That's right. It will play forever.

 _How does it work?_

\- We use the Echo Nest analyzer to break the song into beats. We play the song beat by beat, but at every beat there's a chance that we will jump to a different part of song that happens to sound very similar to the current beat. For beat similarity we look at pitch, timbre, loudness, duration and the position of the beat within a bar.

 _How come this doesn't work in my browser?_

The app requires the web audio APIs which are currently best supported in Chrome and Safari

 _What does Psy think about this?_

I don't know. I hope he doesn't mind that we are using his music and images. We hope you check out his official video and his web site too (but really you probably already have).

 _Who made this?_

Paul Lamere at Music Hack Day Reykyavik on October 28, 2012

</comment><comment><USER10> Infinite Gangnam Style was built this weekend at Music Hack Day Reykjavik in Iceland. Check out the full list of hacks here:

[http://wiki.musichackday.org/index.php?title=Reykjav%C3%ADk_...](http://wiki.musichackday.org/index.php?title=Reykjav%C3%ADk_Hacks_2012)

</comment><comment><USER11> I would be interested to see what happens when you do this to other types of music.

<comment><USER12> Markov models work well for almost every genre-- recompositions of classical or modal jazz tunes are particularly awesome.

<comment><USER13> This isn't exactly a Markov model, although I reckon you could draw a mathematical connection.

<comment><USER14> It seems to me that it is. Please explain how the markov property is violated?

<comment><USER15> I'd guess each section is unique so there is no frequency analysis; the next section is picked at random instead of saying "Whoop whoop" is followed by "gundam style" 20% of the time, by "hey sexy lady" 50% of the time and by another "whoop whoop" 20% of the time.

<comment><USER16> Surely in a Markov process the next state _is_ picked at random with some probability distribution, which may be uniform.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, thinking about it some more, that seems to be correct. It isn't what people usually think about when they think about Markov models, but it qualifies.

Actually, I think this kind of Markov model might be a better introduction than some of the others I've seen, since it's extremely simple to understand.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Madlibs for music. Peter Langston, whom I met at Sun while he was consulting on the *7 project, did an interesting paper in infinite music [1]. We built something akin to the Casio "smart beats" feature from their all-in-one keyboard products into the application so that we'd always have musical accompaniment in the UI. Of course that was before we realized that many (most?) people insanely hate UIs that make ambient noise :-)

The Echonest stuff, done over the selected works of an artist could make for some interesting mashups of their work.

[1] <http://www.langston.com/Papers/amc.pdf>

</comment><comment><USER18> My 4 year old sat and watched and sung along with this in delight for about 30 minutes (when we turned it off, cause like, enough already...)

Someone should analyze _why_ this song is so catchy.

<comment><USER19> Actually, this is a fairly unusual song, in music theoretical terms. Almost all pop songs use the I, ii, IV, V, and VI chords, with popular progressions including I-IV-V, ii-V-I, and I-V-VI-IV. Since this is tonal music, it obviously includes the I chord. It does use only four chords, but they are uncommon. Most of the song uses the I chord (G major in this case), but during the buildup, it uses an surprising I-II-III-I-II-vii progression. The II and III chords aren't strictly in the key of the rest of the song, although they still blend well with the in-key chords. vii is just F# minor here, but it is not in the key of the rest of the song either. vii is not often seen in pop/rock/classical music; you often see vii° instead, since it is in-key. I can't argue with Psy's choices, though, since that little riff builds a lot of tension.

<comment><USER20> You're close but not quite there. The build up is VI-natural VII-I-VI-natural VII-V7b9. So you have the chords right but the root note wrong.

The major I for the third chord is the really key piece of that chord progression. Shifting up and down chords by step is pretty common in pop music, but shifting into major I the first time then the flat 9 dominant the second time (especially with the natural 7 right before it!) is a powerful harmonic one-two punch.

I don't want to be 'that guy', but the other guy responding to you has it totally wrong. Try to plunk out chords on the piano with the music and see for yourself.

<comment><USER21> Your build up progression is exactly the same as mine, only I interpret it as based on the major key III. I agree we're not talking about modulation in the usual sense, but I think it makes sense to think of it as a key change. It reminds my ears of the common IV-V-vi progression, only with a suprising major VI.

<comment><USER20> I have to disagree again... I don't think a III chord is anywhere in the entire song. The build up is in the parallel major.

<comment><USER21> Right, the key III _is_ the parallel major. I'm shifting the base of the notation for this passage. When I say III ends the build up, I mean III in the parallel major key, i.e. V(7) in the original key.

<comment><USER20> III is the relative major. I is the parallel major. As I said, I believe there is no III anywhere in the song.

<comment><USER21> You're absolutely right. In my native language, the relative key is called the parallel key. Sorry for causing confusion.

So, to clarify, I'm not claiming there is a III in the original key, I'm referring to the III chord of the _relative_ major key.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I know it's a bit borderline, but thinking about how this was done was pretty interesting for me, and I thought others might appreciate it too.

I also like the helpful visualization below that shows which part of the song it is currently using.

</comment><comment><USER22> No one else noticed that this doesn't work on Firefox?

      Sorry, this app needs advanced web audio. Your browser doesn't support it. Try the latest version of Chrome

<comment><USER23> Yup that's normal. They even explain why. That's normal for tech demos using bleeding edge APIs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Clever. I wonder if the illusion is broken if you actually speak Korean. I would definitely notice if someone chopped and reassembled random words in English.

<comment><USER25> I have trouble when I'm in American and I order water. I need to soften the t to a d, and drawl the word.

I almost always understand Americans, apart from a few movies where they speak rapidly with background noise.

Here's an example of what it's like: (<http://youtu.be/q-cAnFbEXY0>) - it's almost recognisable, but not quite.

So, mashing together sounds to create fake words can create something tantalisingly close to what I'm expecting to hear. Mashing a bunch of random words together usually doesn't work, but putting a Markov chain in the again creates something that gives the initial feeling of "this is not nonsense".

And for most songs you probably could sting random words together without so many people noticing; random sentences would probably be fine.

<comment><USER26> > _I have trouble when I'm in American and I order water. I need to soften the > t to a d, and drawl the word._

Where are you from? (i.e. What kind of accent do you have?) I find it strange that you'd have to enunciate _less_ to be understood ordering water. If you pronounce "water" with a British accent (<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/water#English>), Americans should generally not have trouble understanding you.

<comment><USER25> I'm English, with a reasonable English accent.

I'm not kidding, "water" is never understood, across a lot of California.

<comment><USER26> Interesting. I've never seen that before, but I can't imagine why you'd make something like that up, so this must just be a gap in my experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I have a habit of listening to a single song over and over again. I am able to do so for about 3 hours. Using such randomizer technology, this time will be dramatically prolonged...

<comment><USER28> I recoil at the thought of that—how can you stand it? Is there something behind it that would make you want to prolong it even further?

<comment><USER29> As someone that does the same I think it's to do with "ignoring" the music. I can _listen_ to the same song for ~3 days at a time (and the same artist for longer, up to a week) but I will often find myself not realising I have music on or be sitting in silence and not notice.

For example from October 20th to October 22nd I listened to Kanye West 200 times in a row and I've listened to "Bob Dylan – All Along The Watchtower" 717 times in total. Music directly reflects my mood so if I'm happy for 6 hours and find a song that I find to be happy then I have no problem with it on for that entire time.

Here's a graph of my listening habits from lastgraph[1] that will show big patches of a specific artist: [http://lastgraph3.aeracode.org/static/graphs/graph_228708.pd...](http://lastgraph3.aeracode.org/static/graphs/graph_228708.pdf)

[1] <http://lastgraph3.aeracode.org>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Sort of relevant to the HN crowd, MIT Gangnam Style: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJtHNEDnrnY>

</comment><comment><USER31> I'm a native speaker of Korean, and the song doesn't sound bizarre.

</comment><comment><USER32> Seems like we're going back to "Built for Internet Explorer" days.

<comment><USER33> Why would you say that? The author said them self that this works best in Safari and Chrome.

<http://static.echonest.com/InfiniteGangnamStyle/faq.html>

<comment><USER25> People used to build websites and tweak them for a particular browser. They'd use tags that only worked with one browser, or attributes that worked better with one browser than another.

They'd then stick a little graphic on the page saying "This site works best in [Browser name]"; often with a download link.

When Nux says "Seems like we're going back to "Built for Internet Explorer" days." I guess they're saying "It seems that we're going back to a time when people tweaked their websites to work with a particular browser, rather than concentrating on standards compliant code and cross browser compatibility".

<comment><USER34> Well, these days, I write a website using web standards, it works great in Chrome, Firefox, and IE10, except for one CSS style that IE doesn't support, ruining it for IE10 users. And so I unintentionally end up creating something only usable in Chrome or Firefox.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Done with bigger squares and optimized for a tablet, this would be a compelling UI for a live DJ performance.

<comment><USER36> This is how Ableton Live works (and Renoise introduced a similar live view a while ago), although of course it doesn't take any random audio file but rather your own compositions, written in Ableton.

<comment><USER37> you can use any audio in Ableton. a big draw is it's time warping tools which makes it easy to manipulate songs like this.

the real difference is Ableton doesn't have the ability to automatically chop the song into logical parts. Maschine can do this, but it doesn't automatically play subsequent parts based on properties on the current one.

<comment><USER38> Celemony Melodyne does some interesting things with audio as well. Ableton Live 9 has some nifty features where it converts Audio to Midi, which you can then assign to any other sound. Nifty

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> On Chrome 22.0.1229.94 m on Windows 7 64-bit, it freezes then crashes the tab instantly, every time I open it. I can't play it.

<comment><USER40> Check your extensions. It works here on 22.0.1229.94 m Windows 7 64-bit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Love the Web Audio API! [https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw- file/tip/webaudio/specifica...](https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw- file/tip/webaudio/specification.html)

</comment><comment><USER42> Anybody else hate these jumps in commercials to fit the 30s or whatever budget they have? Always makes me wonder if they think noone would notice? Duh, of course people do! :)

Btw, quick bug report: doesn't work for me if open in non-active tab in Chrome 22.0.1229.94 on Mac OS X 10.8.

Good fun and now do an automated version where ppl can paste their youtube links. Greetings, lx

<comment><USER43> _doesn't work for me if open in non-active tab in Chrome 22.0.1229.94 on Mac OS X 10.8_

I can confirm this bug too.

<comment><USER44> That's just because Chrome throttles JS execution in background tabs to a crawl.

<comment><USER43> Thanks. Is there a fix?

<comment><USER45> Just drag the tab out to its own window. Then you can minimize it and Chrome doesn't consider it to be in the background.

Random aside: I just noticed that after you drag the Gangnam tab out to its own window, then you can open other tabs in that same window, and it doesn't put the Gangnam tab in the background anymore. But if you put the tab/window back in the original set of Chrome tabs, then it will.

<comment><USER43> Man, this is more complicated than Google Wave!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> When I minimize the window, the music becomes choppy. Anyone else has this?

<comment><USER47> If you focus another tab in Chrome/Linux yes (not on minimize).

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Imagine this being done not with one song, but with an entire library of electronic music.

You would have to improve the program a little bit, but this concept being realized with a vast music library?

Sounds quite interesting...

</comment><comment><USER48> The audio becomes very laggy when I switch to other tab in chrome. It is fine if I switch to other application so I guess it's chrome itself throttling the background tabs.

Anyone else experiencing this?

<comment><USER49> Browsers slow down background javascript execution.

<comment><USER48> Si it's probably the constant switching of audio clips that is causing the stutter. My first thought was that the audio itself was laggy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> So I guess this works best because most of us can't understand the lyrics so if we did this with an english song or any song the native listener understands you might end up with nonsense lyrics. It doesn't sound like it's jump around making nonsense sounds, but it might string words together that are really bizarre as it bounces around the lyrics.

</comment><comment><USER51> I took some time and transliterated the lyrics into English, but also to match the video and what goes on in it. This is almost as fantastic as that.

Warning: if you watch it, the lyrics will get stuck in your head. <http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10101449851143489>

</comment><comment><USER52> It bugs and you can get trapped int the 40 boxes segment loop over and over again. (the last straight)

<comment><USER46> You can "escape" the loop the by clicking on any of the cubes if you get sick of the segment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Ah some more chrome only stuff :)

</comment><comment><USER54> My favourite thing about this is that you can basically make your own remix by clicking about the squares below, and you get an amusing chopped up video for free.

</comment><comment><USER55> Hm... do they have a way to automatically do this to any song?

<comment><USER56> Yes: you can use Echo Nest Remix in python or do what paul did and pre-load the analysis and do the playback via webaudio. Remix takes care of the chopping at the right bits for you: <http://echonest.github.com/remix/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Interesting, that site crashed safari on my iPod.

</comment><comment><USER58> cf. "You've been watching this for 0:00:37. Have another beer!" <http://lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala.com></comment>


Ask HN: Can Twitter determine your client via api calls made? - <AUTHOR>

I'm using twitter as an example, but I'd like to know more generally as well.
From twitters end how do they tell the difference between: 1) API call made from a user on the website 2) API call made from a user on the mac client 3) API call made from a user on the ios app 4) API call made from a an application I have built
Cheers. <comment><USER2> Each application - their website included - uses its own set of API credentials to make calls, thus identifying a client is trivial.

Pedantic edit: version 1 of the API supported _some_ anonymous calls, but that version is very close to being dropped. All API calls to version 1.1, though, _must_ be authenticated.</comment>


Apple brings ad-blocker extensions to Safari on iPhones - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34173732

<comment><AUTHOR> If extensions like this became ubiquitous, I wonder what Google's response would be? Would they refuse to run their apps on iOS like they do on Windows Phone, or would they still have a sufficient revenue stream to not see this as an attack against them?

How would web site operators respond to this?</comment>


Google says controversial AI voice calling system will identify itself to humans - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/10/17342414/google-duplex-ai-assistant-voice-calling-identify-itself-update <comment><USER2> Seems like backpedalling based on the outcry, would have been a very obvious thing to disclose during the presentation</comment>


'Devastating' bug pops secure doors at airports, hospitals - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/04/devastating_bug_pops_secure_doors_at_airports_hospitals/ <comment><USER2> HID is up there with RSA on my list of big companies whose products should not be used.

Let's see.

\- IIRC, many (most? half? not really sure) HID devices use no crypto whatsoever. The tags simply tell the reader their serial number.

\- A bunch that do use crypto use a homebrewed algorithm that's entirely broken. (See, for example, [http://www.openpcd.org/HID_iClass_demystified](http://www.openpcd.org/HID_iClass_demystified)).

\- AFAICT, HID doesn't like to talk about their actual protocols. That rules them out for serious use in my book.

IMO the right way to do keyless entry is to use SIA OSDP Transparent Mode [1] readers and some very simple software to authenticate something like a Yubikey NEO or a Mifare DESfire at the other end. (The high-end DESfire devices are cheap and use real crypto.)

(Of course, big customers still use HID and RSA, because no one ever got fired for using an expensive product from a well-known big-name supplier.)

[1] A fancy name for an open protocol that lets you _gasp_ exchange plain ol' APDUs with a card via a reader that speaks the protocol. Of course, this is so amazingly brilliant that HID's parent company claims to have patented it. Someone should file for ex parte review. (The patents are, AFAICT, [https://www.google.com/patents/US6575360](https://www.google.com/patents/US6575360) and [https://www.google.com/patents/US7853789](https://www.google.com/patents/US7853789). These are IMO about as obvious as patents get.)

<comment><USER3> If you don't mind my asking, what other companies are on your list?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> > Lawshae says the attacks, which can open every door in a building, are > possible because of a command injection vulnerability in a LED blinking > lights service.

> "A command injection vulnerability exists in this function due to a lack of > any sanitisation on the user-supplied input that is fed to the system() > call," Lawshae says.

This looks like the latest in "internet of things" idiocy. Things that were once simple, but which now inexplicably run Linux.

This is how you get critical security failures from an "LED blinking lights service" or a home thermostat that bricks itself one morning after an auto update.

Its also how you get cars that can be crashed by a 4chan troll 1000 miles away, over the network, because of a bug in the entertainment system.

[http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep- high...](http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/)

Just Say No to needless complexity. Just because you can give your fridge an IP address doesnt mean you should.

<comment><USER4> Agreed. After seeing cars rooted and controlled remotely I'd rather have a car with no software at all. It's time for a new Luddism.

<comment><USER5> Among the many reasons why I drive stick, this ranks near the top.

The clutch serves as a wonderful dead man's switch.

<comment><USER3> I'd be willing to bet a significant percentage of HN's readers drive stick.

<comment><USER6> Except for those of us who drive hybrid eCVTs or electric. Owning an automatic was one of the most expensive decisions of my life... One I wouldn't repeat if I could avoid it.

<comment><USER7> Just curious as to why owning an automatic was one of the most expensive decisions of your life?

Just for reference I own an automatic and I'm quite happy with it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's a surprisingly simple way to leave yourself a "backdoor" with almost any these electronically controlled magnetic locks: tape a paperclip to the magnet.

The paperclip creates enough of a gap to weaken the magnetic hold such that if you put your shoulder into it, you can pop the door open.

This backdoor is virtually undetectable, because the door still operates normally, and no one thinks to look directly at the magnet (except for me, which is how I discovered this trick).

<comment><USER9> Wow, that's a pretty easy attack, and one that a baddy could pull casually while scoping out an office or some other target during business hours.

<comment><USER10> I know a guy who had to break into his own office, he popped a ceiling panel and disconnected the door's power supply, switching off the magnetic lock

<comment><USER11> I've done that before to get in to the server room during an outage in the middle of the night. For some reason my keycard wasn't working. Servers were on battery backup but the door locks weren't. Killed power via the master switch to the building long enough to get in the door, fix the outage and get out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> So you need to be on the door controller network to exploit it... and the network is behind the door.

As opposed to paying a pickpocket $50 to swipe a HID card from any of a thousand employees. Or, I dunno, using a passive reader to clone any of them from across the parking lot. Both of which are less traceable than, say, a spear-phishing malware attack.

<comment><USER13> [http://www.exfiltrated.com/queryport.php?Port=4070](http://www.exfiltrated.com/queryport.php?Port=4070)

All those IPs are on networks behind doors.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Why is a door lock running a full Linux, with command line tools?

<comment><USER15> Most privilege.

<comment><USER16> Everyone gets root :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> no inhouse security network like this should be connected to the internet. in house security personel are on site to monitor control and manage</comment>


Netflix Crushes Estimates, Renewing Faith After July Letdown - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/netflix-crushes-estimates-renewing-faith-after-july-letdown?srnd=premium <comment><AUTHOR> There's an interesting chart (two paragraphs in) that basically shows how heavily-speculative NTFLX stock still is</comment>


Ask HN: Where should my startup open its first bank account? (U.S. based) - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Quickbooks Online w/Payroll + Any major bank.</comment>


Hackers sell access to over 3400 servers in India: Kapersky - <AUTHOR> http://m.gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/hackers-sell-access-to-over-3400-servers-in-india-kaspersky-850215 <comment><AUTHOR> That's a heck of a lot cheaper than I was imagining(it said $6 per server - I'm guessing buy rate). I had imagined more available though.</comment>


Facebook's Free Basics: More Open, Better Security, but Still a Walled Garden - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/09/facebooks-free-basics-more-open-better-security-still-walled-garden <comment><USER2> "Facebook has committed not to inspect the traffic passing through its proxy server while it's temporarily decrypted, and to log only data that could be seen even if the traffic truly were end-to-end encrypted: namely the domain (but not the rest of the URL) and the amount of data transferred."

Committed in what way? To who? And for how long?

I _really_ don't trust such blanket statements. It's basically a TOS that says "Go on, trust me."

Encryption is meant to provide some level of assurance that _I don 't need to trust you_.

Having a point in the communication chain where things aren't encrypted is the definition of a weak link. This is completely ignoring things such as National Security Letters.

</comment><comment><USER3> It would be nice to see this program die, but it seems likely to succeed. Zuckerberg seems determined to see this through, Prime Minister Modi is a big fan and people appear to have lost interest in fighting this.

</comment><comment><USER4> facebook = AOL-2.0.1

myspace = Friendster-2.0

and the list goes on...</comment>


Cicada: A Bash-like Unix shell written in Rust - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/mitnk/cicada <comment><USER2> Interesting. Having the core terminal/language down is a good start. An important part of any terminal will be it's support for plugins/extensions or otherwise natively replacing them the way Fish tries to do.

I've recently started using [https://elv.sh/](https://elv.sh/) as my primary terminal after testing it out on/off for 2yrs and slowly porting old ZSH aliases/scripts into the Elvish language (very similar to Go which it runs on), coming from a decade on ZSH. There's a lot of opportunity in this space.

ZSH with the full suite of packages with autosuggestions and various other plugins (which I've grown fully dependent on) can get very slow on initial terminal loads, even with tracing and optimization.

Smaller tools like ripgrep and exa both written in rust help speed up common terminal commands: [https://github.com/ogham/exa](https://github.com/ogham/exa)

<comment><USER3> can you share these zsh to elvish ports?

<comment><USER2> Yes, I intend to publish them soon when I'm more comfortable with it. I've only switched over this month and it's changing often.

I released a vim plugin in the meantime: [https://github.com/dmix/elvish.vim](https://github.com/dmix/elvish.vim)

And zzamboni on github has some good starting dot-files which I forked initially. [https://github.com/zzamboni/dot- elvish](https://github.com/zzamboni/dot-elvish)

Otherwise I'm interested in creating an oh-my-elvish type library in the future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Discussed in 2017: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14675431](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14675431)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I submited once on HN about this project two years ago. Since then quite a few new features have been added and some improvements are made. So it's time to expand the user base a bit :)

Now cicada shell is still have some issues, but overall it's quite usable. I hope it could be useful for people who are seeking simplicity and speed in daily use of the shell.

<comment><USER4> It's fine to repost after that much time has gone by. This is in the FAQ: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html).

<comment><USER5> But the link back to the earlier post is also nice to have, thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6>
      cicada> echo -e '#!/bin/sh\necho works' > /bin/1
      cicada> chmod +x /bin/1
      cicada> 1
      1

      bash> 1
      works

      cicada> touch a b; echo "$(echo "$(echo "$(ls)")")"
      $(echo $(echo a
      b

      bash> echo "$(echo "$(echo "$(ls)")")"
      a
      b

<comment><AUTHOR> For `touch a b; echo "$(echo "$(echo "$(ls)")")"`, I'll think about it.

It looks like a bad command to me (nested $ and nested `"` do not smell good). Probably I would mark this a wont-fix. But if I found I does make sense (useful in some meaningful places) - I'll consider to update cicada to align with Bash. Thanks for reporting.

<comment><USER7> Nested $() is fine, and not uncommon (though 3 levels like here is rarely used). All the nested "" present here are required, as removing any of them would cause a change in behavior (caused by word splitting).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > Math arithmetic directly in the shell![1]

Killer feature right there.

[1]: [https://github.com/mitnk/cicada#math-arithmetic-directly- in-...](https://github.com/mitnk/cicada#math-arithmetic-directly-in-the-shell)

</comment><comment><USER9> I was looking for something actually bringing a net positive... but the FAQ has answered my question

> Why another shell?

> Because we can. :)

It doesn't do anything exciting that I can tell.

This post would be more useful if it were titled as a 'learn how to write a shell in Rust'.

</comment><comment><USER10> Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. \-- Henry Spencer

Yay! Non-portable Unix tools! Just what everyone wants.

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h This isn't reinventing Unix, this is a (cut down part of) Unix. (Unix the family, not the original Bell Labs OS, of course).

And "non-portable" because it's only portable to Unix? That's... Approximately everything. Linux family and Darwin naively, NT via WSL/cygwin/etc., BSDs obviously, Android sorta-natively or via Termux, Chrome OS via Termux, crouton, or crostani(sp?). What is Unix not portable to?

<comment><USER11> It's probably the usual complaint of Rust not being able to run on an obscure 1965-era calculator.

<comment><USER12> I can't run C on a 8-bit calculator either. At least not using GCC or Clang or any other mainstream compiler. Sure, I could use some toy compiler for that, but then 99% of the libraries I'd like to use won't work there anyways, due to a variety of issues.

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h I was about to object, but actually it looks like you're right; tigcc appears to only target the TI-89 et al. which run on the 16-bit Motorola 68000 series. A quick search doesn't give me any C compiler for the TI-84 after all.

Your _actual_ point, of course, is valid regardless:)

EDIT: Oops, actually [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Device_C_Compiler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Device_C_Compiler) ... but then you're right about getting pretty obscure.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>