Direct Match (YC W15) Aims to Make Bond Trading as Easy as Stock Trading - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/yc-startup-direct-match-aims-to-make-bond-trading-as-easy-as-stock-trading/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29

<comment><USER2> Wow, as a former fixed income trader I find this really interesting. I wonder if they're looking for any help.

There's definitely an issue with getting prices in the FI market. When I was doing it, I used to create a Bloomberg chat with all the likely banks (the usual suspects) and blast them all a message like "EUR 2Y, 1MM/bp, what's your market?". And then wait as some guys were inevitably slower than others, and some people wanted to pull their prices before I got them all. And the more complex the product, the longer it took (swaptions for instance). And of course once you'd picked someone to trade with, everyone wanted to know what price it was. It was a real nightmare.

The question is how exactly this service is going to work. In principle, it's not that hard to distribute prices, especially if they're not actually tradeable like equities (then it gets hard!). I think I've seen at least one service that just gives you an indicative and tells you who to call. These days you could just do a filter with the banks you have docs with, and click and chat with whoever came out on top.

Implementation wise, I'd worry if the banks made it too hard to integrate with them. Even opening a firewall is something that can take time at big shops.

There's also a whole regulatory can of worms. Best execution, and all its consequences.

</comment><comment><USER3> >Unlike the stock market, the bond market doesn't have a centralized system where traders can plainly see the fees involved in the trade. This means traders have to ask each bank, one by one, either by phone or electronically, what they are willing to sell a Treasury bond for.

Mind. Blown. I always just vaguely figured that something as large as fixed income / debt markets, which look to be at least twice as large as equity markets[1], would have massive incentives for fintech to innovate much earlier.

[1] [http://finance.zacks.com/bond-market-size-vs-stock-market- si...](http://finance.zacks.com/bond-market-size-vs-stock-market- size-5863.html)

<comment><USER4> Founder here. I find it crazy that over 50% of transactions in Treasuries and 70-90% in other asset classes are still traded over the phone. Lots of room for new entrants to make an impact in the space.

<comment><USER5> What's the case for small investors to buy bonds?

So I feel barely competent to purchase stocks, because there's honestly a lot of crystal ball holding involved. Is the company going to grow? Is that already priced in? Etc.

It seems like bonds are case where the returns will be paltry or risky, and when risk is involved, the small investor will be least good at measuring that risk.

<comment><USER6> There are 2 ways to read your question.

1) What's the case for small investors to buy bonds, whether by buying them directly or via a bond fund? In this case, I recommend reading up on Modern Portfolio Theory and Asset Allocation or, if you just want practical information, just get a basic book like the Bogleheads guide.

Basically, since stocks are risky, investors typically hold a combination of bonds and stocks. Also, because the returns for bonds and stocks are (somewhat) uncorrelated, a portfolio with a mix of bonds and stocks can have better returns with less risk (variance) than a 100% stock portfolio. Assuming your bond and stock holdings are diversified (e.g. you buy and hold index funds), the main long-term investing decision you have to make is the % you allocate to bonds and stocks.

2) What's the case for small investors to buy individual bonds instead of just investing in a bond index fund? Well, depending on where you are, you can buy government bonds without brokerage fees, so your costs might be lower. But in that case it's harder to invest the coupons by yourself.

Of course bond returns are lower, but the risk is much lower too. In the case of short-term bonds issued by most developed countries, the risk of default is extremely small. The main risk is that unexpected inflation eats your returns.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I spent a few hours with a firm active in this space the other week. I think this is going to be a difficult battle. There are already over a dozen electronic venues for bond trading, some of which are pretty successful and allied with major liquidity providers.

The core problem they are trying to solve is an example of something being broken by design:

>>> "the bond market doesn't have a centralized system where traders can plainly see the fees involved in the trade. This means traders have to ask each bank, one by one, either by phone or electronically, what they are willing to sell a Treasury bond for."

This isn't exactly true - there are plenty of electronic quotes for small size. When you want to trade a lot of bonds - that's another story. The dealers don't want their prices out there electronically for any taker, because fixed income markets are relatively illiquid and the transparency can hurt them.

Not exactly sure how this will be overcome, but my general assumption is to borrow from the dark pool model for equities.

<comment><USER8> Thanks - we chose Treasuries because it's a highly liquid market, and the bonds are easy to value. Even large trades can't move prices by that much since the cash flows of Treasuries are fungible. Also, the current electronic systems for trading aren't necessarily good at accommodating large trades from institutional investors. The entire risk of the trade is owned by one market- maker. If trading platforms could facilitate one-to-many counterparty transactions, the market would be able to price large trades more competitively. Moreover, institutional investors could split up large trades into smaller executions without disclosing their identity to a principal market-maker. That might be more advantageous than executing a single block.

<comment><USER9> > Even large trades can't move prices by that much since the cash flows of > Treasuries are fungible.

Could you elaborate?

<comment><USER8> Sure - if you own a bond maturing in 10yrs and paying a coupon of 2% yearly, what you have is a series of cash flows of 2 2 2 2 2 ... 102. In other words, a treasury bond can be decomposed into a series of zero coupon cash flows (interest payments+principal re-payment). The price of a 'whole bond' is the sum of the prices of the different zero coupon cash flows.

A bond maturing in 30yrs has at least 10yrs of cash flows that line up with the 10yr bond. Since coupon interest payments can be 'stripped' from one bond and 'reconstituted' in another bond through the federal reserve, the price of matched-maturity zero coupon cash flows, even if they are stripped from different bonds, is the same. If they weren't, there would be an arbitrage opportunity to buy the cash flows of one bond and sell the cash flows of another bond, exchange them at the Fed, and lock in an immediate profit. Sometimes arbitrage opportunities like this do exist, but typically it's due to liquidity events where it becomes impossible finance offsetting positions. There's a good article on this called "Notes on Bonds: Liquidity at all Costs in the Great Recession" by Musto, Nini, and Schwarz

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It'll be a tough market to crack, largely due to its fragmented and illiquid nature (not to mention the structure that results from the role of the primary dealers). It _might_ be the right time, with the regulatory restrictions being placed on the big/primary dealers' prop-ish market making activities but if the market does shift in the right direction for Direct Match (i.e. if liquidity shifts away from the primary dealers, if they agree to partake in a CLOB, or if, God forbid, the Treasury forces them to quote electronically, like the European governments do with MTS), I'd expect the existing players like NASDAQ and TradeWeb to be standing ready to jump in.

It's one of these markets that looks simple at first but there are lots of nuances that have caused it to take the shape it currently has. To be successful, I think Direct Match will need to do something a bit different than simply offering a CLOB.

</comment><comment><USER11> >Unlike the stock market, the bond market doesn't have a centralized system where traders can plainly see the fees involved in the trade.

I thought that, that marketplace is the bloomberg chat embedded in the bloomberg terminal, and IMO it's working good enough for big banks, I understand that lowering the barrier entry for FI will bring more liquidity but it's going to be a tough sell for big banks, which have >90% bond trading marketshare .

</comment><comment><USER12> Tangential question, for retailer traders out there, how do you guys buy bonds?

I think the typical way is to buy TLT ETF which is very liquid. But I'm curious if you guys tried any retail brokerage way of buying and holding onto treasuries directly or even if it's worth it.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you deal with cold fingertips when you code? - <AUTHOR> I developed this effect a few years ago, but it didn't bothered me until lately.
Of course it's less noticeable in the hot days, but in general when I go out for long walks my fingers will feel bloated and red-ish. The doctor told me that it's called Raynaud's phenomenon and that I'll have to figure out ways to deal with it.
So far I tried some gloves that I had in my house but even with those my fingers get cold while they are inside the gloves.
Absurdly enough, the room temperature doesn't have much to do with it, because the air condition is working at full throttle and my room is close to 80-82 Fahrenheit most of the time.
Also, if you have it, did you ever had to report it to your manager? Did you tried anything that worked for your workplace? <comment><USER2> Generally cold fingers are from poor circulation. Living in Colorado where a few months of the year we get very cold weather so I have learned a few tricks about cold hands (from Snowboarding to Programming I've experienced cold hands almost everywhere).

One awesome thing my work did for me was brought in a hand massage specialist who taught me several stretching techniques for the hand that help increase blood flow which in turn helps keep them much warmer.

Check out the the following page [1], it has pictures and descriptions that teach great stretches. Not only is it good for circulation it's good to just do this in general to prevent other common problems that stem from lack of stretching.

 _side note_ stretching has been a real game changer for my programming. Not only does it make me feel more energized, the stretching seems to have increased my work ethics by a lot because I feel more energized to be that team player.

[1] [http://www.toc.md/exercises_wristhand.htm](http://www.toc.md/exercises_wristhand.htm)

If this doesn't help just grab a desk USB hand warmer and that should be able to help when your hands aren't feeling so nice (as mentioned by other users in this).

 _edit_ Also wanted to mention after thinking a bit more and the hands, feet, and head are the places you lose the most amount of body heat from. I wear a hat while programming so possibly having one at your desk may also help keep in more heat? Just a thought, doubtful this is the root of the issue for ya though.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for sharing the link! They seem like things I can do on short breaks to keep my fingers, hands, and arms nimble especially during long coding sessions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> [http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Raynauds- phenomenon/Pages/Treat...](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Raynauds- phenomenon/Pages/Treatment.aspx)

Obviously I am not a doctor.

Reading through that suggests either you are a normal case and just need to take your fitness seriously (including keeping stress under control) to improve circulation. You could be an abnormal case and need to look at medication - but as you have already seen a doctor I am going to guess that isn't the case.

For fitness I wholeheartedly recommend [https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...](https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommended_routine) (vid: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB3HhP2GYk0&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB3HhP2GYk0&feature=youtu.be) ).

The heater suggestions seem like good ideas to treat the symptoms while you work on the cause.

Reporting it to your manager is an interesting question. Personally I wouldn't do anything formal, but I work quite closely with my manager so he would informally know, I also don't have to get permission to use any personal equipment at work - which isn't the case for everyone.

But again, I am not a doctor.

It sounds like a PITA of a condition. I hope it is benign and treatable for you.

</comment><comment><USER5> Perhaps counter-intuitively, I have found that applying more layers to my core rather than to my fingers/hands tends to keep my fingers warmer.

Of course, this only works if blood can circulate heat from your core to your extremities. Try throwing on a vest and, when coding, make sure your elbows are not bent and your writs are not resting on a pad in such a way as to obstruct blood flow.

Good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> I tried googling for this but got mixed results. Shouldn't the wrists be touching/resting on the desk (the piece of desk between the keyboard and me) or are they suppose to float?

<comment><USER6> They're supposed to float. It's much better ergonomically.

Look for images/videos of professional pianists -- ideal wrist ergonomics for typing are very similar to those for playing piano.

Specifically, your wrists should be loose and relaxed, so that your hands would hang down loosely if the fingers weren't resting on anything. My piano teacher used to spend a few minutes at the beginning of each lesson shaking my forearms until the wrists loosened enough!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I programmed by -30 C outside, (10 C inside), I used a big bowl (2 liters) of tea to heat my fingers. Hands on the bowl, slurp tea, hands on keyboard, repeat. When the bowl, is empty refill it.

But this was before USB, you know, when you had to go uphill in the snow both to and from school. Nowadays you can get something like:

[https://www.amazon.com/USB-Heated-Shawl-Lap- Blanket/dp/B01BH...](https://www.amazon.com/USB-Heated-Shawl-Lap- Blanket/dp/B01BH1P8TI)

And of course, you should be careful in your choice of computing hardware and software. Nowadays, hardware and software are optimised to spare energy usage, processors go to sleep or reduce frequency while you're working, etc. All this doesn't produce much heat, in top-notch computing hardware. Instead, choose cheaper, less "green" hardware, some laptop that heats a lot, and run some background tasks (eg. you may compile the linux kernel in a loop, or have some 3D rendering game running in background), so that the processor is used close to 100% full frequency, and produce more heath. Then you can put your fingers on the hot surfaces or on the air vent exits.

<comment><USER8> I second the tea solution. It also forces you to get up to use the bathroom.

<comment><USER9> Suggestion alternative solutions to the bathroom approach is considered Discussthing and will get the thread locked and loaded.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I have a milder form of the same phenomenon and find that workman's style fingerless gloves (I use DeWalt Technician Fingerless Gloves[0] and can vouch for them.) are enough to reduce it to a tolerable level. They are thick enough to retain warmth and highly durable but leave the fingertips unimpeded for mousing / typing.

In your circumstance, I'd look into USB-powered heated gloves as an option as well, e.g. [1]. If that alone isn't sufficient, some have removable heating elements that you could probably transfer over to the heavier fingerless gloves mentioned above.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/DPG230L-Technicians-Fingerless- Synthe...](https://www.amazon.com/DPG230L-Technicians-Fingerless-Synthetic- Leather/dp/B002FYB01W)

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/GoodBZ-Fingerless-Mittens-Computer- St...](https://www.amazon.com/GoodBZ-Fingerless-Mittens-Computer- Stripes/dp/B00GTPB68K)

</comment><comment><USER11> If it's Raynaud's you might want to ask if treatment is appropriate for your case. You're not just getting cold, you have arterial spasms with Raynaud's if I remember correctly, and mayo clinic suggests I do.

[http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/raynauds- disea...](http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/raynauds- disease/basics/causes/con-20022916)

Check the lifestyle and home remedy part for some advice, but it sounds like you just need to plan more breaks and relax your extremities more.

So I'd continue to be checked. There is likely a more specific underlying cause that can be treated. Cold is a factor but it seems based on the condition that you could be coding in a volcano and still have this happen

Edit cause I bumped submit on tablet too soon.

</comment><comment><USER12> I too have struggled with painfully cold fingers and feet while I code. My hypothesis of what is happening is that when you're resting your arms on the table, you are preventing the free flow of blood in your forearms to your hands. Without warm blood reaching your hands, they get very cold. The same thing applies to your feet as the seat you're sitting in constrains blood flow in your legs.

A good short term solution is to fill a paper cup with hot water and wrap your hands around that. This provides temporary relief but only treats the symptom. The effect wears off quickly.

I have also tried fingerless gloves, but those are completely worthless.

The only real solution is to do some light exercise. Most days after I eat lunch, I will walk around for 30 minutes. This light exercise creates heat in my muscles and thereby heats up my blood. The warm blood can also freely circulate to my hands and feet as nothing is constraining the flow of blood. After about 15 minutes of walking I can feel an internal warmth returning to my hands. The skin is still cold but I know soon enough my hands will be warm again. And the effect lasts the rest of the day.

<comment><USER13> > My hypothesis of what is happening is that when you're resting your arms on > the table, you are preventing the free flow of blood in your forearms to > your hands.

If this is what's happening, perhaps taking up indoor rock climbing would help. I know of no better exercise for improving the body's ability to send blood to the forearms and hands than rock climbing since so much of it depends on grip strength. Failing that, there are grip strength training devices (example...not suggesting this particular one: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HB7V6KS](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HB7V6KS)) that he might keep by his desk to use when he starts getting cold fingers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Maybe, a small space heater for your desk with the airflow pointed towards your keyboard.

I have the small rooms one described here. And it is pretty manageable. [http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-space- heaters/](http://thesweethome.com/reviews/best-space-heaters/)

</comment><comment><USER15> I have a mild case of this...fingerless gloves and keeping the room warm work for me. Notably the circulation shutting down is a response to your body being cold as much as your hands...is the ac blowing on your body?

The US Army has done some research suggesting you can train away the response by (IIRC) keeping your hands in warm water while cooling your body:

[http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/19/science/simple-method- foun...](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/19/science/simple-method-found-to- warm-cold-hands.html)

I've tried this with good results but it may not work as well if you have the issue in warm temperatures.

There are also heated keyboards and mice you could try.

</comment><comment><USER16> Hello, fellow Reynaud Syndrome sufferer!

Lots of unhelpful advice in other posts: gloves don't work, because heat is brought to your hands by blood flow. Blood flow is cut off, which is why they are cold in the first place. Exercise doesn't really help, because it elevates your core temperature which your body dissipates by circulating to your limbs... which isn't happening. People won't understand what it's like to be painfully cold in a perfectly normal room.

For immediate fixes: if your skin goes dead white and you lose feeling, immediately do something to warm it up.

[http://fupjack.tumblr.com/post/108687833029/note-to-self- get...](http://fupjack.tumblr.com/post/108687833029/note-to-self-get-heavier- gloves-before-hiking-in)

Finding a bathroom and running warm water over my hands often fixes it, and certainly feels better - though it can be painful as the numbness wears off. You need an external heat source because your body can't do it on its own.

If your flesh goes blueish-purple, warm it IMMEDIATELY. Extended periods without blood will kill cells and you'll get the equivalent of frostbite and gangrene.

In the long term: It's a spasmodic overreaction to cold, so avoid cold sources. i.e. it can be triggered by air conditioning blowing on you, holding food from the freezer, and so on. I wear a hat into our server room at work for just this reason.

Stress level is related, so exercise may help ... indirectly. I've lost 40 pounds over the past year and a half and walk several miles a day. It has been good for my physical condition and stress, but it doesn't seem to have helped Reynaud's.

It can help to have significantly warm clothing to keep it from triggering; I wear Minus33 undershirts and they help. My wife found a woman who had Reynaud Syndrome who makes her own wool mittens to help, and bought me a pair. (I feel like I have giant fuzzy flippers, but they work.)

I have not tried medication for it; can't tell you if it's worth it.

On the plus side, if you don't like feeling too warm... it may never happen to you again. I felt overheated exactly once this past summer, and my house did not have air conditioning.

</comment><comment><USER17> A close relative of mine suffers from Lupus and with that she has developed Raynauds. She uses blood circulation medication to help get warm blood flowing in her hands and feet. Open fingered gloves are also great for coding because they aren't as restrictive as full gloves. As many others have suggested, a cup of tea or coffee is wonderful too!

I'm sure if you talk to your manager and explain that you have a legitimate medical concern that they will help reach a solution.

</comment><comment><USER18> I friend of mine had the same condition, which made winter activities (skiing, snowshoeing, etc.).

She found the rechargeable electric gloves from Columbia to be very useful. Many outdoor equipment/apparel companies are manufacturing similar items now. Perhaps a fingerless pair of gloves would help?

edit: perhaps, something like this:www.heatedmouse.com/Heated-Gloves.html

</comment><comment><USER19> Well, I'm unfamiliar with Raynaud's phenomenon, but from the larger picture you've painted, this doesn't seem to be a temperature issue and quick fixes, while comforting, don't seem to be hitting the core of the issue. I hate to be "that guy" who gets on the gymkata preaching pulpit (and, yes, that's a very old movie reference), but I work in a computer lab and am generally cold, until I work out. Short, quick cardio in the morning (nothing too strenuous) and either more intense cardio with light weight lifting in the afternoon, or heavy weights and light cardio. I know this sounds like the meatheadiest of meathead posts, but it has really helped me out.... also helps me to keep focus a little better and work of a little frustration. Not all of it, but the sharp, acidic edges seem to fade a bit.

</comment><comment><USER20> I have built a tent for my hands and laptop keyboard that works well for me in cooler rooms.

It sounds like room temperature doesn't impact you you, Filthy_casual, much, so I'm not sure how much this will help you. I am posting mainly for others that may be curious.

I've built these tents out of a number of things, but most commonly it's a t-shirt with 2 coffee mugs on either side to prop it a little. Janky? yes. Effective for me? yes.

I dislike typing with gloves, as my accuracy drops quite a bit. Fingerless gloves don't keep my hands warm. I dislike heating the air in a large room to heat my hands, and I have annoying preference for symmetry on my body that is hard to achieve without two heaters.

</comment><comment><USER21> > _Of course it 's less noticeable in the hot days, but in general when I go > out for long walks my fingers will feel bloated and red-ish. So far I tried > some gloves that I had in my house but even with those my fingers get cold > while they are inside the gloves._

Err, maybe I'm missing something, but how about investing in a BETTER pair of gloves?

Doing something with your fingers while walking (keeping them occupied, e.g. with small stretching, etc) will help the blood flow better.

Also, maybe don't go out for "long walks" when it's too cold outside?

</comment><comment><USER22> I've suffered called hands, fingers and wrists which in turn has made them sore, right up my forearms. I tried gloves and stuff - part of it might be that my home office is in the basement and I live in a climate that sees -30C.

Anyways, my fix is to get the heart rate up. I jump on the treadmill at an incline and do some push-ups. 10 minutes is all I need. And no, I'm not a fitness freak.

<comment><AUTHOR> I noticed that in long walks in the city my fingers swell up, so it's definitely the blood circulation. Maybe my thin fingers make it worse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> When I first started my shed business and was building my products personally, I worked through two winters in the cold, and to prevent frostbite, I removed my boots, rolled up my pants, and dipped my feet into our hot-tub to restore circulation. (My business was home-based.) By warming them in this manner, the cold didn't bother them for about 4 hours.

</comment><comment><USER24> Depending on how bad it is, you might have Raynaud syndrome[0]. Ask your doctor if you need calcium blockers.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud_syndrome)

</comment><comment><USER25> I helped start Prague's first internet cafe in the mid-90s. The digs were basic. Basement floor & in the winter that was COLD.

The founder's strategy was to hang french fry heating lamps from the ceiling, just a little over our hands. It worked great!

</comment><comment><USER26> My hands and fingers get cold everyday. We keep our house pretty warm (heat with wood) and we also live in a cold climate.

I wear a hat.

I wear enough clothes to keep my core warm.

When I get up to use the bathroom I also go sit in front of the wood stove for a few minutes and warm my hands up.

</comment><comment><USER27> I switched from a mouse to a magic trackpad and it really helped. Similarly using an ergonomic keyboard that let my arms be less clenched. YMMV but I think these were particularly helpful to me as I'm fairly tall with large hands.

</comment><comment><USER28> [https://gizmodo.com/262981/this-heated-keyboard-is-the- best-...](https://gizmodo.com/262981/this-heated-keyboard-is-the-best-thing- since-the-heated-mouse)

</comment><comment><USER29> It seems you have a specific disease, so probably better to ask a doctor than HN. Also, Google can be your friend.

Anyway, I'd personally try niacin (also known as vitamin B3), which is also used in heat-rub creams.

</comment><comment><USER30> I only experience cold fingers when the room temperature is below ~68°F. In a warm room I don't have such problems. I am young and get plenty of exercise, though.

<comment><USER31> Ironically, i've been in two buildings where this happens and it's always during summer.

I either go outside or go to the bathroom and wash my hands in hot water every hour or two for a reset.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> [http://www.wristies.com/](http://www.wristies.com/)

Probably not as good as fingertip-less gloves but close enough for me.

</comment><comment><USER33> Sweden here. Put on a hat if your hands or feet go cold.

</comment><comment><USER34> Perceived temperature is most closely related to movement, so get up and move around.

</comment><comment><USER35> Really regular workout is the only longterm solution. It's hard to start but be strong and go for team workout classes 3-4 times a week for three months. After you feel the positive changes you won't give up. I'm doing it for three years by now, no cold fingers/feets anymore

</comment><comment><USER36> Standup frequently and wear USB warming gloves. Seriously!

</comment><comment><USER37> I have it too. Relaxation and biofeedback training help.

</comment><comment><USER38> Start an exercise routine. It'll get your blood moving and the problem completely goes away. It's relatively quick too. You'll notice a change in a week.

<comment><USER39> It's Raynaud's, not "poor exercise routine leads to poor circulation and OP just needs a pep talk" itis. Raynaud's is not a disease of the blood not moving due to being sedentary; it arises from arterial spasms that cut off blood flow. To your point, exercise to improve circulation is indeed often prescribed to mitigate the attacks of Raynaud's, but they won't "completely go away," and that's a bummer of a thing to say to someone with a chronic, uncurable disease that you feel you understand.

A _number_ of people doing that in this thread, by the way, not just you. Raynaud's can be quite aggressive, painful, and limiting to the sufferer's quality of life, including the onset of gangrene and the threat of digit loss in particularly extreme cases. I also see people condescendingly do this to those afflicted in my family -- your fingers get cold? That's easy to fix. Come run with me!

Not how Raynaud's works. Exercise? Good suggestion. Will cure the problem in a week? Google Raynaud's.

<comment><USER38> Ah I must have skimmed past that part. I've had on/off cold fingertips and the exercise routine does work for me to keep it at bay.

<comment><USER39> Everybody in this thread seems to have ignored the body of the submission in the excited rush to explain exercise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Some laptops can get really hot...

<comment><USER41> I have often thought that it would be awesome if my laptop CPU could vent around the keyboard keys instead of out the side. That might help keep my fingers toasty (I experience cold fingers, same as the OP)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Type faster, more compression and friction produces heat!

All joking aside, I have the opposite problem. I'm always hot.

</comment><comment><USER43> Take less adderall.

</comment><comment><USER44> live in the tropics

<comment><USER44> not sure why this is being downvoted.

i live in the tropics, used to have cold fingers, now i don't have cold fingers.

seems like an honest solution to me?

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> stand up, walk around for a bit, make some tea

</comment><comment><USER46> Regular exercise at the gym.

</comment><comment><USER47> > Absurdly enough, the room temperature doesn't have much to do with it, > because the air condition is working at full throttle and my room is close > to 80-82 Fahrenheit most of the time.

Airconditioning, open windows, or bad isolation can cause an un undesired airflow.

> The doctor told me that it's called Raynaud's phenomenon and that I'll have > to figure out ways to deal with it.

Wait, your doctor did not tell you how to deal with this? You're not paying anyone here for medical advice.

For people who work behind a desk for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week I recommend the following:

First of all, regular physical exercise. Its obvious but it has to be stated, and its even more so important if you don't do physical labour.

Second, for office work the following advice (in no particular order: based on own experience, pomodoro techninque, plus local laws concerning this type of work): put an alarm on your smartphone or watch or equivalent device, set it to one hour. Every time the alarm goes off, you take a walk and do some stretches, total of min 3 up to 5 min (more will cause drama with coworkers and/or boss). If someone complains, you tell them that smokers get to smoke in the bosses time (thereby having a walk, good for their blood circulation; smoking itself obviously isn't good for blood circulation and if you do quit ASAP; consult your M.D. for aid) and you need a small walk to keep your blood circulation going. (Of course, you could also try to plan meetings or grabbing a coffee together with your walk & stretch, tho I don't recommend 6+ coffee during 8 hours of work.) During this downtime, you can think of whatever comes up in your mind. It is actually rather likely that more often than not you get inspiration during your downtime, but that is a useful byproduct not the main goal (this is called the diffused mode of thinking). Oh, and if someone laughs at you, know that when you're both elder you're the one who's laughing because you cared about your physical health throughout your working career. I mentioned this is partly based on pomodoro technique. Its a variation on it. If you're self employed, I actually recommend the pomodoro technique itself (ie. traditional pomodoro is 25 minutes of focus, with a 5 min break, and after 2 hours, a longer break (there are variations, worth looking into this further)). But if you're working for a boss or in a team then a small break after 25 minutes of focus is frowned upon. I believe its a productivity loss, but this is the way the status quo of work force generally thinks, sadly. There's some excellent pomodoro apps available for macOS, Android, iOS and surely also for other OSes and platforms. Like I said, alarm apps also work.

</comment><comment><USER9> Have long hair, shove them into the hair, sit there in the thinker-pose.</comment>


Ask HN: Is it possible to monetize a chat app? - <AUTHOR> It seems like the answer should be an obvious yes, but nobody I know (myself included) has ever paid for one. I think I've got a great idea for a chat app, but I really can't see anyone paying for it when there are great alternatives that are free. It seems like even if my app were to go viral, the endgame would be to either get acquired (like WhatsApp) or become an entire platform (like Snapchat).<p>Has anyone here had any success monetizing a messaging/chat app? <comment><USER2> Telegram sure thinks so haha</comment>


Take any circle: There are two points opposite each other at equal temperatures - <AUTHOR> http://hippomath.blogspot.com/2011/06/equal-temperatures-at-two-opposite.html#more <comment><USER2> This is just a (very intriguing) application of the intermediate value theorem - i think that's what it's called - which basically says that if you have a continuous function that starts and ends at the same place, then there are two points along that function that have the same value.

You could draw whatever shape you want - circle, square, squiggle, as long as it starts and ends in the same place, and the dependent variable is continuous as well (e.g. temperature, pressure, etc)

IVT says if I climb up a mountain from sea level to 10', then I was at exactly 5' elevation at least once on the journey. So if I climb up AND down a mountain from sea level to 10', I was at exactly 5' at least twice.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's more than that, because this is talking about getting two points exactly opposite each other.

Yes, you still use the IVT, but there's slightly more you need to do. Specifically, something like taking the angle from 0 to 180, and then computing the difference between f(x) and f(x+180). That lets you use the IVT to show that there has to be a zero, and there's your result.

Or something.</comment></comment>


Introducing React Native Ubuntu - <AUTHOR> https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/blog/2016/08/05/introducing-react-native-ubuntu/ <comment><USER2> Much discussion about this here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12216594](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12216594)</comment>


Voynich manuscript decoded using AI - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mysterious-manuscript-decoded-computer-scientists-ai-a8180951.html <comment><USER2> > Professor Koppel confirmed that it was not a coherent sentence in Hebrew.

The problem with the human mind/brain is that it is looking for patterns all the time, and it is so good at what it does it sometimes - surprisingly often? - finds patterns where there is no underlying regularity.

The AI, like its human creators, is made to look for patterns. I would be very surprised if an AI was immune to the same kind of fallacy.

That being said, I feel like a six year-old on Christmas Eve! Plus it's my birthday! If they have actually found the key to decipher it, that would so extremely cool!</comment>


3-D printed plastic objects that can communicate with WiFi devices - <AUTHOR> http://www.washington.edu/news/2017/12/05/in-first-3-d-printed-objects-connect-to-wifi-without-electronics/ <comment><USER2> > Imagine a bottle of laundry detergent that can sense when you're running low > on soap — and automatically connect to the internet to place an order for > more.

Why. Why why why do all IoT-related articles always use awful consumer goods examples like this. Nobody, or next-to-nobody, would want to have that. There are so many good ideas and existing uses of IoT tech outside of the consumer goods sector, and pretty much every application _in_ the consumer goods sector is hot garbage, and consumers know it.

<comment><USER3> > There are so many good ideas and existing uses of IoT tech

Could you give some examples? I've yet to hear a single IoT thing I'd be willing to pay money for.

<comment><USER4> Just yesterday, it occurred to me that an IoT thermostat would be nice ( _if and only if_ it doesn't mean that a server failure results in me freezing). Right now, I have the choice of heating the house all day (thus wasting heat = energy = money while I'm not home), or coming back to a cold house, turning up the thermostat and then having to wait 1-2 hours until the room is pleasantly warm. (My apartment is understaffed in the heater department and I cannot change that easily since I'm renting.)

<comment><USER5> It's quite easy and cheap to make a wifi-connected thermostat yourself. I did it, it's great.

I made a web interface so that I can control it with my phone when I'm not at home.

It is based off an ESP8266 placed in the boiler which controls a relay to tell the boiler whether to heat or not, and an ESP8266 in my office that has a temperature probe and a rudimentary user interface, and runs a web server to allow remote temperature inputs, and controls the ESP8266-relay over WiFi.

The 3d-printed enclosure is rather coarse, but does the job: [https://img.jes.xxx/1585](https://img.jes.xxx/1585)

EDIT: Failure of the system could result in you freezing, but that's true of anything that controls your heating, and at least this is a device you understand are in control of, and it doesn't rely on anything outside your house. If it fails and you're freezing, just short the terminals of the relay while you debug it.

<comment><USER6> If you are in Europe, you can also buy the ESP8266 from Olimex with relay, box and eventual lipo plug. You then just have to flash your code on it. Only downside is they are not properly shielded electromagnetically so they can only be sold as Kit for experienced users (as certification costs would dominate the price). Also, if your house happens to burn, you can be pretty sure the insurance companies will pin it on your uncertified DIY appliances.

<comment><USER7> > _Also, if your house happens to burn, you can be pretty sure the insurance > companies will pin it on your uncertified DIY appliances._

This is one thing that's constantly on my mind when toying with long-lived electronics projects. Do we know of an actual precedent here?

<comment><USER6> I don't know of actual precedent, but there are numerous examples of lipo house fires (which aren't fully covered). And semi related personal one- datapoint anecdote I've experienced water damage and robberies in the past and they were a lot more prompt to try to find loopholes to not have to pay. I can't afford to set a precedent, so I stick to fused low voltage off the shelf products.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "connect to WiFi" is not remotely accurate. It should be: "Reflect wifi signals in a predictable pattern." This technique, while impressive, requires custom hardware/software to detect and interpret (presumably via filtering and a fourier transform) the back-scatter signal.

<comment><USER9> Yup, only plastic is also misleading since they need some conductive antenna. It's still very interesting and impressive, but somebody please fix the title.

<comment><USER8> This is really just a form of passive radar. It's using ambient signals instead of an active beam, but the analysis techniques used are essentially equivalent. It's like stealth technology in reverse. You are intentionally creating a recognizable radar signature.

<comment><USER10> All this to replace a slip of paper (aka "shopping list"). We have gone barking mad.

<comment><USER11> Ha, your cell phone is sort of like that. All that to replace, just waiting until you get home to make the call.

To be fair, this 3D trick also replaces remembering, driving, buying, restocking.

<comment><USER12> _driving, buying, restocking_

How so? You can already order online. All this devices replaces is the clicks it takes to do that.

A cellphone means you don't have to choose between receiving calls or going out. It's incomparable in its utility.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Anyone that finds this interest should look at how "The Thing" (1945) worked: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_\(listening_device\))

EDIT: Here are some diagrams of how it works:

[https://hackaday.com/2015/12/08/theremins- bug/](https://hackaday.com/2015/12/08/theremins-bug/)

<comment><USER14> You should submit this as a HN link, really interesting story. Thanks.

<comment><USER15> 2 months ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15498685](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15498685)

11 previous submissions: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=listening%20thing&sort=byPopul...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=listening%20thing&sort=byPopularity)

5 more: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=theremin%20soviet](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=theremin%20soviet)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is a truly awesome technology. But ITT an abundance of nit-pickiness on how this isn't _exactly_ what the title says it is or how it could be presented better.

Yes, the nitpicks are correct. But wouldn't it be more inspiring to talk about how it could be used?

<comment><USER17> It's not that awesome. Miniature, WIFI-capable components with batteries that would last years already cost very, very little. This is a strange use of a low-tech approach, seems to fall under the "We can, but why would we?" category.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> "Without electronics" except for the computer devices that have to be dedicated to monitoring for the back-scatter created by the 3-D printed objects and translate it into something meaningful.

<comment><USER16> "Dedicated"? Can't the devices that is already nearby, like a router or your smartphone, query it when needed?

<comment><USER19> They can't query it, they have to be listening when it broadcasts.

<comment><USER16> Yeah ok I understand that it doesn't have a memory. But you can still sort of "query" the current state of a device that is always broadcasting, like a flow or speed sensor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a surprisingly simple solution to the problem: Make the working "device" (3D printed object) do as little work as possible - just enough to be detectable by the surrounding devices that are "real" computers anyway.

<comment><USER21> It's a bit like it sending out an audio signal (which would be another option I think) that can be interpreted by a receiver.

<comment><USER22> This has been done - there are modules that detect and decode audio (which sounds a bit like R2D2). The manufacturer provides clips of this audio, which you could play from an app, allowing a phone to control something without it having to be on a network.

Unfortunately, AFAIK the technology doesn't have a searchable name, so I can't find anything about it now.

Of course, being able to listen for an arbitrary audio signal would be even more useful.

<comment><USER7> Here's a stupid idea I have (I'm pretty sure it's patented 'till kingdom come, but if not, then this is prior art and I want this to be public domain):

      (side view)

            +</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+
        +---+  BUTTON     +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--+
        |   |             |                                |
        |   +</comment><comment></comment><comment>-+                                |
       -+ <-- valve                                        |
        |  +</comment><comment>--  </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+
        |  |           flute          x x x x x x x x x x        <-- sounds comes
        |  +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-----+         out here
        +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--+

                                      x - a hole with an externally accessible
                                          lever that can be used to open or close it

Basically, you press the button, which pushes air through a flute, thus making a sound. The sound is configurable through pluggable holes (marked with x). In the diagram above there are 10 of them, giving you 1024 possible sound frequency combinations to listen for with your central IoT device.

Pros:

\- No electricity needed.

\- Fully configurable, open source.

\- 3D-printable maybe? Still, can be entirely plastic, so even more dirt-cheap to manufacture than the backscatter thingie.

\- Less chance of interference - it's easier to keep the sound contained within your apartment than it is to keep radio waves.

<comment><USER23> That's not quite how flutes work. Two open tone holes in the same air column do not produce two distinct tones. They combine to change the effective length of the air column, which then provides a resonance for one tone, the frequency of which is determined by the length and the speed of sound, which in turn is mostly determined by temperature, and partly by the humidity. You still need a reed to produce the initial vibration.

I think what you are aiming for is more on the order of a disk siren. The rotation speed could be adjusted to produce a different base frequency, and one siren disk can support tone production from several air streams, each aimed at a different radius of the disk. Blocking off or opening the individual air streams can produce different chords based on the base tone.

If you have twelve speeds and six air streams, you can make 767 different chords. The same rotor can turn the siren disk and a fan to move the air. You press the button, the disk spins, and a pre-programmed chord plays.

<comment><USER7> Thanks for clarification. I never thought hard about how flutes work.

Still, based on your explanation, I feel that a fully-mechanical device that has hundreds of configurable tones and is operated through pressing a button should be feasible for easy mass-production and/or even 3D-printing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Actually, I wonder how much those devices would interfere with the normal wifi, like "when the wind starts to move at higher speeds, my movie stops playing" ;-)

</comment><comment><USER25> It's a clever idea, but without a 1:1 connection between an object and a network, it seems too dumb to be useful.

How is my WiFi network supposed to know that the interference in the signal came from my detergent bottle - not my neighbor's, and not from some other random object passing by? Do I have to do some sort of pairing every time I buy a new detergent brand to teach my network about it?

<comment><USER26> If pairing became an issue, amazon could associate a new bottle with your account before they ship it to you, and automagically register the device with your router. As an added bonus you could get a real confirmation that the box arrived when it is delivered.

This is a really interesting idea for IOT. I'm really excited by the possibilities it could open up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Curious to see the impact this would have on wifi performance. Wouldn't this cause all of the really fun stuff making WiFi fast (beamforming, channel hopping, etc.) a lot less effective? Would be curious to see more information.

I imagine this would be really good for things like weather sensors or even security systems... but I have serious doubts of the efficacy of what they are doing.

</comment><comment><USER28> Interesting tech but the consumer products example is broken to me because I don't want to be throwing out even more plastic.

<comment><USER7> It's a potential alternative to some IoT ideas, which have you wasting plastics _and_ metals _and_ powerful microcontrollers just to transmit a button press...

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> So my WiFi should easily be able to detect if my (all metal) garage door is open or closed? I would like this. I run dd-wrt. Is there an all-software solution to this? Or does this research rely on fairly specialized hardware? (sorry, didn't have time to read the whole article)

<comment><USER12> It requires a custom 3D-printed "device" on the door, which would modulate the Wi-Fi waves being scattered around (by your router, laptop, etc) into a signal that would indicate "open" or "closed".

<comment><USER30> I think the point was that the large moving metal object (garage door) itself would mess with the signal enough to detect the state without any additional device…

<comment><USER31> I guess a first good experimental step would be to point a directional Wifi antenna in the direction of the door and monitor what it receives at what strength.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> While rather impressive it sounds like a huge security problem to me.

With machine learning someone could probably train models that know what you are doing in your home.

<comment><USER33> Look at the other 3d sensing systems using Wifi by the University of Washington. It already is possible to form 3d pictures using microwave backscatter from ambient emissions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Imagine 50 years from now inheriting a vase from your deceased relative that has been an undetected malware portal for decades! How exciting!

<comment><USER12> How can you hack something without software, electronics, and memory?

<comment><USER35> Since you worded that as a challenge... by maliciously modifying the CAD files that will be fed to the 3D printer.

...or by building an otherwise identical object that manipulates flaws in how the Wi-fi reads the signals and then replacing the original object with the malicious one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I am reminded of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_\(listening_device\))

This development will probably lead to a new combination of something like RFID, WiFi and electromagnetic power delivery (AM radio).

</comment><comment><USER36> Ignore the soap example and just focus on the underlying Wi-Fi backscatter technology. There are many applications in extreme low power or no power devices. Most are missing the point.

More details here. [http://iotwifi.cs.washington.edu/](http://iotwifi.cs.washington.edu/)

</comment><comment><USER37> So what it is: mechanically modulated, very low frequency, passive microwave transmitter. No wifi anywhere there

</comment><comment><USER38> How can this _possibly_ work? You can't make a connection to Wifi or implement any of the protocols that run over by passively reflecting some signals. All of them require some processing and two way communication. The article just makes no sense at all. It is 1st April?

<comment><USER39> It's explained in the article, although the title is inaccurate. The 3D printed devices do not, themselves, connect to WiFi. The backscatter is picked up by a WiFi receiver which is connected to the WiFi. But if you're going to comment, why not take the time to understand the article instead?

<comment><USER38> I read and understood the article fully thank you. Wifi does not work like that and this cannot possibly work.

<comment><USER40> "this cannot possibly work" \-- are you claiming that the working prototype depicted in the video is a fraud? That's a very serious allegation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Cool idea, I'd like to see how much distortion this causes on the Wifi channels though. They are already overflowing.

</comment><comment><USER42> As landfills pile up with wifi-reflecting garbage we will truly be realizing the dream of the IoS (Internet of Shit).

</comment><comment><USER43> I'd imagine with conductive filament and a cheap microprocessor or bluetooth radio you can so the same or much more.

<comment><USER11> Its called an RFID tag

<comment><USER44> Which we technically call transponders, and while they do have EEPROM, they don't normally have CPUs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> >In first, 3-D printed objects connect to WiFi without electronics

No.

</comment><comment><USER46> Aww I remembered seeing this being presented in Siggraph Asia this year. Cool to see it popping up on HN now!

</comment><comment><USER47> over-engineered stuff that does not really connect to anything! but needs a special device to permanently listen to signals from the 3d printed toy.

</comment><comment><USER48> so, malware on my phone can fake these signals and order 200 gallons of laundry detergent for me?

<comment><USER11> Not sure at all how that would work. Can your phone generate arbitrary backscatter waveforms? I don't think it can.

<comment><USER7> If the malware could access and modify the radio driver then why not? Also, TX-capable SDRs are getting cheaper and cheaper :).

<comment><USER11> Radios are largely hardware in the TX component. Not a lot you can do but point them at data. I'm not sure ANY data pattern looks like backscatter?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Zero security though.

</comment><comment><USER37> Deceptive headline, please rename

You renamed it, but it is still does not indicate that the thing does 0 actual wifi protocol communication.</comment>


Turing Crackpottery - Good Math, Bad Math - <AUTHOR> http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/09/08/1069/

<comment><AUTHOR> I probably should have submitted this one first - here is a more general discussion of The Halting Problem he wrote a few days later - [http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/09/12/the- halting-...](http://scientopia.org/blogs/goodmath/2010/09/12/the-halting- problem/)</comment>


Show HN: Cupper – A specialty coffee guide curated by experts - <AUTHOR> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cupper-find-specialty-coffee/id1014894569?ls=1&mt=8 <comment><USER2> This seems like a copy of CUPS to me -> [https://cupsapp.com/](https://cupsapp.com/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Couple of key differences. CUPS is serving mainly as a platform to help you order coffee at a cafe. We use a certified Q Grader to grade every drink and cafe that shows up in the app. As far as I can tell, CUPS does not rate the cafes or drinks, simply acts as a portal to buy drinks.

You can learn more about us here: [https://blog.cupperapp.com/what-is- cupper-b3f496d0097c#.mbns...](https://blog.cupperapp.com/what-is- cupper-b3f496d0097c#.mbnsjcbk7)</comment></comment>


Show HN: Surge Pricing as a Service - <AUTHOR> http://surgepricing.appspot.com/

<comment><USER2> What type of products / scenarios could you see this delighting the users?

My first thought is that variable pricing on many items, would do more harm than good -- I would much rather pick a higher price up-front, and miss out on some buyers, than confuse my audience with fluctuating prices on when they aren't expecting it.

I would hate two friends to realize they both bought tickets to the same thing, one whom paid twice what the other paid

<comment><AUTHOR> Firstly, this type of practice is fairly common in certain markets, hotels and airlines being key. We believe there are more scenarios to which it could be extended.

Secondly, it's a matter of perspective. Each person has a price they're willing to buy at, and that generally reflects an individual's willingness and ability to spend. Yes, you may hate paying more, but your decision to purchase it anyway means you valued that item enough to buy it at what we offered it to you at. Theoretically if we surged too high, people would stop purchases and the price would go down.</comment></comment>


How a Legal Journalist Got Fired for a Non-Compete - <AUTHOR> https://bol.bna.com/how-a-legal-journalist-got-fired-for-a-non-compete/ <comment><USER2> Very sad. I recently gave my 3 page (really 2.5 pages) client services contract to a client and they came back with their own 9 page "standard contract" for contractors. (I'm a developer.)

I couldn't believe how overreaching their contract was. The most egregious paragraph stated that if I introduced a bug I would be liable for not just what they paid me - I would be liable for their _estimated loss of profits_ !!!

I quoted that part of the contract and wrote back:

"Nice try but yeah, no."

I had my lawyer go over it and take out all the stupid stuff and we came to an agreement.

Lesson: Read the contract. If you find that the contract is unduly unfair, ask if you can cross out the parts you don't like. If they say yes, turn it over to your lawyer.

Lesson: There is no "standard contract".

Lesson: If they say "It's a formality that we'll never enforce." Cross it out. ("Then you won't mind if I cross it out.")

Lesson for contracts [my lawyer taught me this]: If you put something egregiously one sided in your contracts you will break trust with the other party. In my case it triggered a "Whoa, where else are they trying to screw me?" response which triggers the "this is job for my lawyer" response.

If the contract is for your enemies, do whatever you want. If it is designed for parties that you want to work _with_ , it's sending the message that you can't be trusted is not a good way to start the relationship.

<comment><USER3> Do you (or anyone else) have advice for people who are employees? What do I do if Large Company X wants to hire me and they hand me their standard contract -- with me being a mid-level engineer of no note (and thus no real leverage).

<comment><USER4> Good luck. I've tried crossing out undesirable terms in the past at several Large Company Xs. The response is always "WTF is this? Sign the contract unmodified, or there's the door!" Of course, I was not looking forward to another 6 month job search, so I signed it.

<comment><USER5> You need to view the terms of the contract as part of the _pay / benefits / conditions_ package that you consider before you take a job.

Very few people would accept a job before they found out what salary was on offer, and so you shouldn't accept a job before you've read the contract. It's all part of the same thing: "We will give you _this much money_ , in return for you doing these things ..."

If you've been looking for work for a while and you've only received 1 offer then you'll probably accept it even if it pays less than you were hoping for, or if the contract has clauses you don't like. You take the best that you can get.

But if you've got a number of offers (or reasonably expect to have a number of offers) then you are probably willing to turn down a job (or negotiate) over salary, and you should do the same over contractual clauses.

If someone verbally offers you a job with a salary you're happy to take, it's perfectly reasonable to say "That all sounds fine, and I'll be happy to respond formally once I've had a chance to read a copy of the contract", but don't accept the job until you've received and read the contract, because _that_ is the thing that you're actually agreeing to.

<comment><USER2> The last paragraph is gold. It's easy to forget to make acceptance conditional on seeing the contract in the excitement of getting hired.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is the general problem when you have two parties with an asymmetry of power enter into an agreement with each other.

The more powerful entity will spend time iterating over the process and identify every possible way they can be threatened. They will write contractual language that errs on the side of protecting the company.

The less powerful entity will not argue any of this language for fear of no longer being allowed to engage the more powerful one. They don't know what to look out for anyway because they are inexperienced at entering in to these kinds of contracts.

This is a problem for more than just employment contracts. We expect individuals to have to negotiate against highly-paid professional negotiators for even the most essential activities in our lives.

<comment><USER7> The good news is that most employers don't actually try to enforce non- competes unless the violation is egregious (like poaching clients).

This particular case might be a cynical and calculated action to, as the article says, "send a message" to other young employees looking to move on. It could be the aggressor here has been suffering from a brain drain and this is how they've decided to deal with it.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, I realize that many non-competes don't get enforced, but the fact is that those companies will continue to demand them because the non-compete protects them in a small percentage of cases (regardless of its impact on their employees). The companies have zero downside from the NC but it can significantly affect workers who may feel they have no choice but to sign it if they want a job. Hell, many of the non-competes are likely unenforceable, but so few people ever push back on them their legality is never tested.

<comment><USER8> Exactly, and most employees are never going to be in a position to push back, especially in a field like journalism, where people are happy just to have a job

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "We are confident that our employment practices comply with all applicable laws, and we remain committed to maintaining the highest standards in our ethical, journalistic and employment practices."

Oh, please. The overly broad non-compete demonstrates a complete lack of ethical standards in your employment process. You're really just trying to say you are just as scummy, but no more scummy, than the prevailing standard for employment practices in the U.S. Which is a standard largely devoid of any ethical considerations whatsoever.

<comment><USER10> "We are dedicated to conducting business according to all applicable local and international laws and regulations, including, but not limited to, the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, and with the highest professional and ethical standards." \- Enron Code of Ethics

[http://www.agsm.edu.au/bobm/teaching/BE/Cases_pdf/enron- code...](http://www.agsm.edu.au/bobm/teaching/BE/Cases_pdf/enron-code.pdf)

<comment><USER11> When somebody states so strongly that they are following the law, you should be really suspicious that something is up. Like how if a hotel strongly advertises "our rooms are really, really clean," run away.

<comment><USER12> " _The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws._ "

\- (Extremely liberal paraphrase of) Tacitus

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> One important thing to note is that often, when you leave a company, they will offer you a severance package in return for signing an agreement. This may happen if you are fired, or also if you leave on your own accord.

IANAL, but I've dealt with this situation and my key takeaways are as follows:

1\. Pay a lawyer to read the document for you and provide advice.

2\. There are major differences in state law, and jurisdiction is important. For example, if you worked for Google in NY[0], and your contract was a NY- based contract, and there was a harsh noncompete in it[1], and you subsequently took a job in California that violated the terms of the non- compete, it doesn't matter that your new job is in California and Google's HQ is in California and Alphabet is domiciled in Delaware. You signed, and are potentially in violation of, a contract whose potential violation would be adjudicated in New York.

3\. Upon receiving advice from your lawyer, and bearing in mind the importance of state jurisdiction, ask your former employer to make changes to the agreement as you see fit, especially if there is an aggressively worded non- compete.

4\. Don't believe them when they say "this is just a formality". Read the fine print and understand what it means.

[0]: Has already been mentioned a couple times in this thread, but California is a much more employee-friendly state than NY. Non-competes are essentially unenforceable, as are non-poach agreements. It's my understanding that disparagement clauses are also a lot harder to enforce in CA, but IANAL.

[1]: To be clear, I am not sure whether this would be the case at Google specifically, just using a well-known California-based company as an example.

<comment><USER14> Worth noting that in the UK it is pretty standard for your _employer_ to pay for your lawyer ( _not_ their lawyer) to review your "compromise agreement" \- there is a standard fee of £500 or so for this which a decent employment lawyer will be able to get a decent amount of work done even if their hourly rate is much higher.

I left my previous employer a couple of years ago and it ended up with a fair bit of negotiation and it was all covered under the standard fee. The particularly nice thing is that they bill your employer, not you!

<comment><USER15> Interesting. In the US, I would almost never use a lawyer paid for by someone else. I'd always assume the lawyer's client is whoever is paying them.

<comment><USER16> You pick the lawyer yourself - they just send their invoice to your ex- employer, after they've advised you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've worked for several startups (US and UK) where the contracts contained very broad restrictions like this non-compete. Fortunately my wife is a lawyer and has helped me to read and red-line them, and then push back and get these sections rewritten. This is something I would NEVER have thought to do by myself, and I don't know many other tech people who do this either. I don't know the legality of these clauses, but my impression is that the companies don't really care - it's easy to put overly restrictive language into their contracts because they have little to lose out of it, as an employee is unlikely to undergo expensive future litigation to sue over it.

Bottom line - there needs to be (a) some low cost support mechanism for people to be able to check whether their contracts contain anything overly broad that could hurt them later, and (b) some way of educating potential employees that they should read contracts in detail, and that they can challenge contracts and push for changes before signing them, and not to treat them as a binary sign as-is/no-sign decision.

<comment><USER18> > _some way of educating potential employees that they should read contracts > in detail_

I don't mean to sound overly dismissive, but isn't this just part of being an adult? Meaning, don't sign legally binding contracts that you haven't read. Don't lock yourself into a potential course of action, or waive rights to certain things (e.g. arbitration agreements), without understanding the ramifications should something go pear-shaped in the future.

Some of these are sign as is or don't sign, unfortunately. My wife and I were about to buy a car maybe three months ago, and throughout the process we're signing paper documents for everything. Most of it printed off a dot matrix printer, if you can believe that.

Then we get to the arbitration agreement. Handed an iPad with the agreement on it, no ability to change anything, and a signature pad to sign. I put up a fuss and said that we weren't going to sign the agreement, but eventually we had to walk away from the deal because they would not proceed without it and would not provide a paper copy we could red line at the desk.

<comment><USER19> >Meaning, don't sign legally binding contracts that you haven't read.

If we required this to be an adult that the world would be full of children. Granted, I personally want this. I would like to make 'I didn't read/understand the contract' valid reason to break a contract unless the other party could prove with clear and convincing evidence you read and understood the contract... but I realize this would bring our society to a halt and would require a significant rework to fix. We live in a society that abuses consent and to swap to one that doesn't will not be an easy task.

<comment><USER20> ... Your signature is _exactly_ supposed to be the "clear and convincing evidence" that you read and agreed to the contract. Now understood it, that's a different matter entirely and is generally governed by contractual capacity, which adults by default have. I'm not even sure how you would prove contractual capacity, short of proving that they can read and understand the words on the page... Which is basically just the opposite of proving that someone is _not_ capable due to mental illness or impairment. Considering that it's much more likely that someone is capable than not, it seems like assuming capability and proving the lack thereof is a reasonable stance.

<comment><USER21> If "contractual capacity" means that you have a legally robust understanding of the meaning of all of the clauses in a contract, then I'd posit that maybe 1% of the population have that, even for common consumer contracts such as with Telcos.

I'd guess that only a small minority of the population have a sound idea of what arbitration or indemnification are for example.

<comment><USER20> "Contractual capacity" means you have the capacity to enter legally-binding contracts. It is generally understood that if you willingly enter into a contract that you agreed to the terms. Not willingly entering the contract is signing under duress and would result in a voided contract. Not understanding the terms is not a valid defense, unless you were not capable of understanding them, in which case you would be ruled contractually incapable and any contracts voided. If you were capable of understanding the terms and simply chose not to before signing, that is on you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Where I worked years ago, I told my employer flat out that I wouldn't sign the non-compete that he handed me. He asked me again two weeks later to sign it. I refused, explaining how it would essentially give me no bargaining power and could keep me from getting future work. That was the last I heard about it.

I continued working with some awesome people (my employer included) for another two years.

</comment><comment> at-fates-hands As someone who worked at West Publishing and then Thompson West and its current iteration Thompson Reuters, I have some insight into why this happened.

Many of Reuters businesses are starting to face more serious competition. There was a time when Reuters owned the media business. Now smaller, more nimble companies are coming in and giving them a LOT of competition.

Legal reporting is one of these areas, and Law360 has been eating into their market share in several regions. As such, Thompson goes out of its way to try and hire their help. It gives them more of an insight into what the company is doing. For years, Thompson West used to hire Lexis sales people just to find out what they were doing. Reuters still does the same thing. None of the information is confidential, but it gives Reuters a lot of information into how they train their people, the areas of law they focus on, how many reporters are on a certain beat, etc. Any kind of information they can get, they do. Of course this isn't done in a formal way, it's more off the cuff stuff you hear around the lunch table, or during an training session.

Law360 probably realized this and called in their ace card - the NDA. Tie it up in court, or just hamper the reporter in trying to get a new gig and their problem is solved. This is why Law360 sent out the letter about having "critical and sensitive confidential and proprietary information".

Simply out, this is a resource war, Reuters is getting beat and uses employees from other companies to gain a competitive advantage. She just got caught in the middle is all.

</comment><comment><USER23> Something I don't understand -- a non compete is between an individual and their (previous) employer. The new company hiring the employee has NO contractual or legal obligations to the former employer -- so why the tendency towards firing? And if the former employer contacted the new one, making legal threats in order to get a person fired, isn't that itself illegal? (Wrongful interference with Employment Relationship).

<comment><USER24> I am not a lawyer but I believe this is because there is a tort for inducing someone to break their contract with a third party. Therefore as the new employer they'd be on the hook.

<comment><USER12> Even when the new employer has not been sued, there are cases where they have paid the previous employer to settle the non-compete, as was the case with a CEO Nortel hired from Motorola:

" _The two companies were involved in a brief legal dispute last year after Nortel announced it had chosen Motorola 's former chief operating officer, Mike Zafirovski, as its next CEO. Citing non-compete agreements, Motorola sued Zafirovski in October. The dispute was settled a few days later when Nortel agreed to pay $11.5 million to end the matter.

Under the terms of that October settlement, Zafirovski and Nortel agreed not to recruit Motorola employees._"

(Not trying to say this case is anything like that of a much lower-level journalist as described in the article. That seems unfair and harsh)

[http://www.infoworld.com/article/2674269/networking/nortel-a...](http://www.infoworld.com/article/2674269/networking/nortel- appoints-ex-motorola-exec-as-operations-chief.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I can see non-competes as valuable for people who know business details that would be considered trade secrets (and only for a limited period of time). But for people further down the ladder, this seems like an extremely high burden.

<comment><USER26> That conversation should take place before you sign something.

After you sign something, it's not important if it's reasonable or not: you have to uphold it.

<comment><USER27> > After you sign something, it's not important if it's reasonable or not: you > have to uphold it.

This may be your personal moral preference, but it very much is not an accurate reflection of contract law (at least, not in any US jurisdiction.)

<comment><USER28> No it has to be "justicabale" even if you sign a contract that signs away for statutory rights that clause would be void.

You cant sell yourself into slavery for example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I see a lot of advice here to never sign a non-compete form. Sounds reasonable, but I have another possibly simpler suggestion.

I've been asked to sign 3 non-compete agreements in the course of my career, in spite of working the entirety of it in California, where they're useless. When I got the first one, I consulted a lawyer who told me as much and suggested I sign it with all of the non-compete language redlined out.

I've done that with all 3 of them, and have never once gotten so much as a comment about it from my employers. The hiring manager is happy to get al his paperwork, HR is apparently happy to have a bunch of stuff to file away, and I'm pretty sure legal either knew I was in the right or they never even looked at it.

<comment><USER4> You got lucky. Lots of places will insist that you either sign their documents unmodified or GTFO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> When I was a freelancer working on my own, a few companies would include a non compete clause. I challenged them on this always and they were all very happy to alter the wording. It's about the wording mostly, and about definition of competition. For example if I am working for a web agency shop that does e-commerce websites for sports and I am just working on a site for a surf shop, I would alter the clause to read "in the realm of surf shops" rather than competition in general. They were happy to change it because it kept the spirit of the agreement, what they actually meant there. Yeah, I was fine not making directly competing in a specific domain, but I wasn't going to be limited by contract in competing in a general sense. It was also clear that reducing from 12 months to 6 months is usually acceptable also.

Now. The worst clause in a permanent contract is the other works / open source projects etc. They sometimes want to own all your code even the things you do in your spare time. They will ask for a list of all projects you contribute to before working, and if you want to contribute to something new in your spare time you will need approval from management. Now, I think this is very unreasonable, and I've pushed back on this so much that I've rejected job offers because of it. What I do in my own time is my business.

</comment><comment><USER31> Blanket non-competes undermine the creative destruction process in modern economies. They will end up hurting the companies using them by making it harder for successful firms to expand quickly and keeping less successful firms afloat longer. The problem is individual companies lose little in the short run by putting them on their own employees.

The answer is to make non-competes unenforceable across the US in the way they are in California, which makes them generally unforceable but adds reasonable exceptions for situations like selling a company to an acquirer.

<comment><USER32> I have been asked to sign non-compete agreements by a couple of employers.

One of them was just a legally worded agreement to not poach customers or go to work for a customer within 18 months of ending employment. That made sense to me and I agreed to it.

I wouldn't sign a non-compete that forbade me from going to work for a competitor.

<comment><USER31> Same here. Unfortunately most people either don't take the time to think through the consequences or do not have a choice about work that allows them to push back.

I have similar feelings about binding arbitration, another area where corporate lawyers have gone crazy in recent years.

<comment><USER32> In one case, I needed the job and a non compete was a condition of employment.

Instead of signing, I wrote in cursive "Won't Agree" on the signature line.

It may not hold up in court but it was enough to satisfy my personal ethics. If I decided to do something that was contrary to the agreement, I wouldn't be violating my own code of honor.

<comment><USER33> [http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2010/09/10/what-was-alan- turi...](http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2010/09/10/what-was-alan-turing-like/)

> 1942, age 30. [Alan] Turing joined the Home Guard so he could learn to > shoot. "[Turing] had to complete a form, and one of the questions on this > form was: 'Do you understand that by enrolling in the Home Guard you place > yourself liable to military law?' Well, Turing, absolutely > characteristically, said: There can be no conceivable advantage in answering > this question 'Yes' and therefore he answered it 'No.' … And … he was duly > enrolled, because people only look to see that these things are signed at > the bottom." He learned to shoot, but he refused to attend parades, and the > apoplectic chief officer confronted him, and Turing said, "You know, I > rather thought this sort of situation could arise…If you look at my form you > will see that I protected myself against this situation." He'd decided on > the "optimal strategy if you had to complete a form of this kind. So much > like the man all the way through."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> How is a non-compete legal anyway? You're basically saying that a person can't get a job with a competitor in the same industry, how is anyone with any decent skillset supposed to get a new job without somewhat violating a noncompete?

<comment><USER18> Disregarding their use in tech or journalism, there are uses for them.

My wife and I own a gym (in addition to our full-time jobs) that has several salaried trainers on staff. They sign a non-compete that for 1 year from the date of termination, they cannot take a trainer job at any gym within a 5 mile radius from our location, and they cannot own more than 20% of any gym located within a 10 mile radius.

This prevents them from opening up shop across the street and taking half the clients with them. It prevents them from doing the same with a nearby competitor.

It is limited by time, has a specific geographic area, and is only for a specific job. They can do whatever they want beyond a 10 mile radius on day 1, or they can open up a gym on day 366 anywhere in the world.

We've never had to litigate it because it's never come up, and if someone wasn't happy and really wanted to get a job at a Gold's two miles down the road, we would probably let them provided they didn't spend their last week giving our clients their new business cards or something.

<comment><USER35> > and taking half the clients with them

I think there is a big difference here between non-compete and no-poaching agreements. At least yours is tailored to a radius, but I don't know that your narrow definition of non-compete is really the same.

<comment><USER36> In principle, I agree with you. However, in practice, a lot of what drives non-competes is concerns about poaching. I don't know if non-competes are particularly prevalent in service industries but I'm probably most aware of examples from consulting. I'm not going to defend non-competes but I suspect one of the reasons that they exist is that poaching clients and use of inside knowledge from a former employer are difficult to prove if they're not blatant whereas working for a competitor is pretty straightforward.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> How do you sign something first and then complain when it gets enforced? Even if she wouldn't get fired from her next job, her getting another job in a field covered by non-compete already shows that she didn't pay attention to her obligations and easily violated them.

I have been in this situation myself: a company that wanted to hire me presented me with a non-compete agreement. I naively think that I should expect contracts and obligations that I sign to actually be upheld by all involved parties, including myself. If I signed it, nobody would fire me from another position — because I don't violate contracts that I sign, and I wouldn't apply for another position in the same field.

Instead, I declined to sign it in the current form, explained my problems with it to an HR, and one day later got an edited agreement that had a non-compete with a reduced scope (only companies making similar products).

<comment><USER23> The problem happens when you accept a job offer, quit your previous job, then during new hire orientation you are given a stack of "standard HR forms" to sign. You are never told "Take these home and have your lawyer look them over" (how many of us even have a lawyer?), and are given the impression that everything is boilerplate.

<comment><USER11> People really need to learn that there's no such thing as a boilerplate contract, everything is up for negotiation, and when somebody tells you to sign something and not worry about it because "we never enforce that anyway" then they're either bullshitting you or they're complete idiots.

This sort of thing ought to be taught in high school, along with other basic adult concepts like how to get a bank account, how credit cards work, how to vote, and how to pay taxes.

It's bizarre how such important things are left to each person to learn on their own on an ad hoc basis.

<comment><USER37> I don't think I really gained a good understanding of contracts until my first employer out of university sent me on a 3 day course on contracts.

The fact that a contract is very much a legally binding document that you can't easily walk away from is not given nearly enough emphasis in the UK school system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I was faced with a non compete clause that would have barred me from working in the same industry for 2 years. I said I wasn't ok with. They said 'it isn't usually enforced'. I said 'then it shouldn't be in there'. I was told 'they don't usually allow any changes' (and this was a big company).

The result was that they did change it and send me a new contract.

Companies make a huge play for legal rights with contracts. Usually you have wasted a lot of time to get to that point since they haven't sent you a template in the first place. Suddenly there is an unreasonable amount that you are giving up for the privilege of working for someone. Selective enforcement is bullshit. Anything in the contract can be used as leverage against you if the company doesn't like the position they are in at any particular moment.

</comment><comment><USER39> I find that even corporate lawyers are frequently ignorant of the laws applicable to post-employment restrictions. In NY these covenants are enforceable only to the extent that they protect the "legitimate business interests" of the employer, under BDO Seidman v Hirshberg. Those interests do not include preventing employees from practicing their trade, though some sleazier employers seem to think that is part of the game. In this case, it sounds like the employer is threatening some sort of trade secrets misappropriation claim, which would not be surprising as this usually accompanies any noncompete claim. However, it's hard to imagine what protectable trade secrets a "content" author would learn. I mean, how to write content is not a trade secret, it's a skill of the trade.

<comment><USER40> You can read about that here...at Law360!

[http://www.law360.com/articles/558083/bdo-seidman- continues-...](http://www.law360.com/articles/558083/bdo-seidman-continues-to- rule-ny-restrictive-covenants)

<comment><USER39> Typical of products and services marketed toward lawyers, law360 requires a silly subscription to read content that is largely already public info. Maybe the trade secrets that the Reuters journalist stole have something to do with the secret of convincing people to cross the paywall of this obnoxious publication! Anyway, here's a Google Scholar link to the opinion, which is self-explanatory:

[https://goo.gl/Vzq0XG](https://goo.gl/Vzq0XG)

<comment><USER40> You can read the article in full if you google the title and click the result link.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Anybody find it weird that Law360 had the journalist sign the Non-Compete on her first day along with other HR forms?

Every time I've had job offers that included a Non-Compete, the contract was always to be signed at the same time as the offer.

</comment><comment><USER42> I am curious, given the length of time she was employed at her new employer and her statement saying her editors were aware of this, whether this was just the HR compliant reason she was let go.

<comment><USER5> There's some confusing language in the article that might make you think that she worked at Reuters (the new employer) for a long time. In fact she was only there for a few weeks:

 _... who Thomson Reuters fired within weeks after hiring her in September_

The bit that confuses it is this:

 _I also later found out that every editor in my section at Reuters had been well aware of the non-compete for years_

What I think she's saying is that the editors at her new employer were well aware (and had been "for years") that Law360 (her old employer) used these non-competes, and (by implication) that she'd be subject to one.

It gives the impression that she _worked there_ for years, but that seems to just be an unintended consequence of the phrasing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Perks of a right-to-work state: broad non-competes are unenforceable for exactly this reason. You have to have specific and reasonably defined scope in order for it to be viable.

</comment><comment><USER44> The internet has completely changed contracting for me. The contract is the email thread up to the point at which we have an agreement. If the counter- party suggests that we sign another document than that, he is a liar and a cheater, and I will not do business with him.

In those circumstances, non-compete clauses will have been discussed during the mail thread. If we discussed and we agreed to them, they are valid. Otherwise, they are not.

I do not understand that anybody would still agree to sign a contract document drafted solely by someone else. If it was not drafted together, it is bound to be abusive, and it is always the party who did not participate in its drafting who will be abused.

I have always imposed my will or else walked out of bad deals, regardless of whether the counter-party is an individual or a large company. What difference does it make?

</comment><comment><USER45> What's the situation in New York, do you have give cause? Or it it at will and you can fire for no reason?

Interesting here is that it's the new employer firing an employee for non compete rather than the previous employer trying to enforce it against the signator.

<comment><USER46> > What's the situation in New York, do you have give cause? Or it it at will > and you can fire for no reason?

Generally, New York is 'at-will', though it depends on the circumstances of employment: [http://www.ag.ny.gov/labor/can-you-be- fired](http://www.ag.ny.gov/labor/can-you-be-fired)

Note that New York City _also_ has a some additional protections that are not present state-wide[0]. I'm not sure if any of those come into play here.

[0] For example, discrimination against gender identity is protected in NYC and Long Island, but not state-wide. IIRC New York also protected against discrimination for sexual orientation before SONDA (state-wide law) was passed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I worked at a place once that had a not only non-compete, but barred me from buying anything from a supplier the company used (including Walmart). I objected and crossed it out before signing. Never came up again. A lot of these agreements are legally useless but often put in just in case it might be useful later.

</comment><comment><USER48> Outside of selling your company why do we have these and why are they enforceable? Well I know why we have them, but why are they allowed to exist? What is even worse are companies forcing noon compete on essentially unskilled workers

</comment><comment><USER49> Meanwhile, the HR flackey at Law360 who incompetent advise her still has their job:

 _When I signed the agreement, the HR representative who conducted my orientation called it a formality and told me it just meant I couldn't freelance for a competing site while still working there._

<comment><USER50> > who incompetent advise her

That was very competent advice from the point of the company -- the HR person convinced her to sign the provision the company wanted her to sign, the company didn't have to face a choice between agreeing to strike the non- compete or letting her walk, and there was no record of the misleading "sales pitch" the HR representative used (which might have served as evidence of conflicting intentions, allowing a court to strike the non-compete provision on the grounds that the parties didn't intend it to be binding, or even caused future liability for the company if the HR rep's description of the non- compete crossed the line between legal sales techniques "oh that's not important, you don't want to think too hard about this part of the thing, everybody signs it" and illegal fraudulent misrepresentation "it says X" when it clearly it actually says Y which is totally different).

It sounds like the HR person did their job competently.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> "I also later found out that every editor in my section at Reuters had been well aware of the non-compete for years."

I thought she'd only been there for a month. What am I missing here?

<comment><USER8> I later found out that other reporters had run into trouble when moving from Law360 to Reuters, but those were before my time. Law360 has had a non-compete since around 2011.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Fwiw, non-competes are unenforceable in California.

<comment><USER27> Non-competes are _mostly_ unenforceable in California. But you _definitely_ shouldn't just sign one and assume it won't be enforceable in your case.

<comment><USER53> Assuming one did such a thing, would it be possible to take them to court and get a summary judgement that the clause of the contract is unenforceable and to be removed, so they can't use that as pressure against your new company as in the instance in the article?

<comment><USER27> It might be possible to commence a legal action for a _declaratory_ judgement (a summary judgement is a different thing) on the matter (declaratory judgement rules vary by jurisdiction.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Never _ever_ sign a non-compete, _ever_.

<comment><USER55> For certain industries, that statement is equivalent to "never get a job."

<comment><USER56> Which is why the law needs to change to ban them completely. This isn't something the free market is going to fix.

<comment><USER57> Sure it is. If the employer wants you, and you refuse to sign, they'll still hire you. If you can't find an employer who wants you badly enough, then work in another industry.

You don't have to read very far on this page to find an example of someone who refused to sign an NC and was still hired.

<comment><USER56> No it won't. And there are anecdotes, that's it. There are just as many of people who felt they would be fired if they refused to sign.

The free market will not fix this problem while the majority of employers hold the majority of the power in this situation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Non-competes are immoral, and anyone who uses them deserves to be ruined so bad they have to live under a bridge. I hope her employer gets sued into oblivion.</comment>