Ask HN: How do you process payments? - <AUTHOR> This is how YOU have chosen to do it. Let us know if it is physical or virtual.
I found an old post from 2009 about this, wondering what the answers will be a decade later : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=526517 <comment><USER2> For my consulting business (average invoice size of anywhere from $15k-$125k), we exclusively accept paper checks, ACH (either as a direct credit for larger companies set up to do that,) or QuickBooks Online, which makes ACH relatively trivial, and they charge basically $1 to process it. Can't beat that with a stick.

For our clients, our preference is still Stripe, though we had a client deplatformed by them because their bank had problems with the product. (In our case, specifically, adult toys.) We had spoken with Stripe at length before investing in using them, and confirmed that this would be acceptable, as they had other adult toy companies on their platform, but Wells Fargo, paragons of fucking virtue that they are, decided to step in an try to get extremely and very awkwardly hands on with our specific products. (They tried to dictate what colors we could and couldn't offer, for instance. It was unpleasant, and we recognized we needed to leave immediately.)

We ended up back at a higher-risk merchant service provider, though we're paying typical rates because we fulfill an actual, physical product (not, say, porn), and our chargeback rate is very low. Still a frustrating experience, and yet another reason to hate Wells.

<comment><USER3> > we had a client deplatformed by them because their bank had problems with > the product. (In our case, specifically, adult toys.)

What kind of bank would do that, and why?

I don't comprehend the logic that would drive such a decision.

<comment><USER4> Wait until you hear about what PayPal stops.

<comment><USER5> PayPal isn't a bank and is known for that behaviour. I understand Wells Fargo is a bank.

<comment><USER6> > PayPal isn't a bank

They are:

[https://www.quora.com/How-can-PayPal-function-without-a- bank...](https://www.quora.com/How-can-PayPal-function-without-a-banking- license/answer/Julio-Vittel)

In the EU you either work with a bank or you need to be a bank to do what Paypal does. In the US not (yet).

<comment><USER5> In the US, are PayPal registered as a bank in the same way Wells Fargo are?

<comment><USER6> In EU they are. Dunno about the states. In the beginning they were not, that I know. But by now... I heard that even Google and Apple were interested in becoming banks (not sure if they followed up on that).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Stripe whenever it's possible. However, without PayPal one is missing a bug chunk of people who cannot pay with credit card. Hence, I offer both. Since I implemented both (again) over the last month, here a list of my resources:

\- Stripe Elements [0] + Stripe Webhook [1]

\- Stripe Checkout [2] + Stripe Webhook [1]

\- PayPal Smart Payment Buttons [3]

And one repository:

\- basic Stripe Checkout with Webhook in React + Express [4]

Personally I preferred Stripe Checkout over Elements, because they take care about the look and feel.

\- 0 [https://github.com/stripe/react-stripe- elements](https://github.com/stripe/react-stripe-elements)

\- 1 [https://stripe.com/docs/webhooks](https://stripe.com/docs/webhooks)

\- 2 [https://stripe.com/docs/payments/checkout](https://stripe.com/docs/payments/checkout)

\- 3 [https://developer.paypal.com/docs/checkout/](https://developer.paypal.com/docs/checkout/)

\- 4 [https://github.com/rwieruch/react-express- stripe](https://github.com/rwieruch/react-express-stripe)

<comment><USER8> Could you elaborate a bit for which reasons you prefer Stripe over PayPal and why it makes sense to offer both? I am currently trying to decide on a payment service but having a hard time making a sensible decision. The way I understand it PayPal supports more countries and may thus be accessible to more customers. Fees between Stripe and PayPal seem to be identical for US transactions; for international transactions things tend to get more complicated.

<comment><USER9> Not op, but my 2 cents.

Stripe's developer UX is godly, from api docs to the dashboard it's something all B2B companies that offer APIs should aspire to.

Secondly, with stripe elements it can be styled into the website much nicer than PayPal buttons.

PayPal does support more countries and still has some brand recognition with customers as "a safe way to pay online", but between the bad UX for both business and developer, as well as their tendency to randomly freeze accounts, we try to dissuade clients away from it unless it's a significant revenue stream.

<comment><USER10> > Secondly, with stripe elements it can be styled into the website much nicer > than PayPal buttons.

Seriously, does anybody care about the style used on a website when making a payment?

Also, as a user, I'd rather see a single consistent style so I have some confirmation about what bank I'm dealing with.

<comment><USER9> > Seriously, does anybody care about the style used on a website when making a > payment?

Stakeholders tend to.

Style may have been a poor choice of wording, as I meant the workflow as well as aesthetics. Keeping the user on the site and having complete control of the checkout process can lead to better conversion rates and up-selling than throwing them to a payment provider and maybe getting them sent back.

> as a user, I'd rather see a single consistent style so I have some > confirmation about what bank I'm dealing with

Which is one of the reasons I listed to include PayPal, as the logo is well recognised.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> We use Chargebee backed by Stripe.

We've been quite happy with Chargebee overall and would recommend them. The only downside is their customer support is very bizarre sometimes and a bit frustrating.

For example, they limit API access to my own (events) data to the last N months. I contacted and asked them to remove the restriction, and they said that wasn't possible because the data was "archived". I pointed out that their UI allowed me to see all the data and their page loaded quickly so clearly the data is close at hand. They then said they'd give me access to all my data over the API for one week. I told them I'm not going to build a script that will be broken in a week and instead will just have to scrape their website - they seemed happy with that resolution.

<comment><USER12> What value do you get from a middle man between you and the raw Stripe API? Why recommend them?

From what you describe it just seems like a hassle with them acting as gatekeeper to your own historical transaction records.

<comment><USER13> Customers need invoices, A/R tracking, recurring payments, line items on an invoice, billing for multiple entities, adhoc products/add-ons - a billing system and a way to process payments are separate things.

I believe Stripe does more and more of this stuff, but it isn't cheap and in our experience Chargebee has perfected a lot of that functionality.

<comment><USER11> Exactly. I find myself wondering why Stripe is still in the picture, seems like they're doing the easy part.

We use the above-mentioned things, and they also take care of providing a UI where customers can change their plan, cancel it, download PDF invoices. Upon plan changes, they deal with proration. They send dunning emails for failed charges and cancel the plan after N retries. You can set up coupons, discounts, trials, credit, refunds, welcome emails, etc. through them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I operate a "electronically supplied services" hobby company, [https://webhook.site](https://webhook.site), and I just didn't want to deal with VAT payments to individual EU member countries. So I switched from Stripe to Paddle, who handle all the VAT payments for me, take a fee and give me a lump sum. EU just has way too much bureaucracy for small-medium sized companies. I'm also using Patreon which is similar (they also handle VAT and subscriptions), but it seems most people prefer Paddle to Patreon.

Tangentially, I'd recommend everyone to _stay away from Paypal_. You will lose your money or your account sooner or later. Let someone else (like Paddle) handle Paypal payments and that risk.

<comment><USER15> FastSpring is a similar alternative.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Stripe when possible, but for a recent project I'm using Dwolla, which operates strictly via ACH (which makes it US-only).

The problem with Stripe is they have a large list of prohibited businesses, which mainly is inherited from the credit card networks as I understand it. Even if you're a perfectly legal and legitimate business, if you fall under one of these broad categories you can't use Stripe's platform (even if you only use their ACH product and don't touch credit cards). PayPal has a similar list.

The credit card networks justify it by claiming certain categories of business are riskier (and I'm sure some are). But then you see how a lot of these categories may have come from Operation Chokepoint, chosen by unelected bureaucrats seemingly without any evidence.

Personally it disturbs me that so many legitimate businesses are severely hamstrung from collecting payments online because of extremely opaque decisions by an oligopoly of payment networks.

But about Dwolla - it's not quite as smooth as Stripe; you have to build out your own customer onboarding screens, and production plans are priced through a sales rep rather than a SaaS-y paygo model. But I feel much more in control from the business end of things using them.

</comment><comment><USER17> I've been selling a SaaS product for the last four years. Originally I used Stripe but recently switched to Paddle.

The main reason is that it makes my life a lot easier, they act as a reseller so I effectively sell my product to them, and they sell it on to customers. At the end of each month I just need to enter a single payment into my accounting platform, and they handle all currency conversions (I sell in USD, my accounting is in GBP) and sales taxes. They of course charge more, but for the amounts I'm talking about the cost outweighs the time I was spending dealing with Stripe payments.

They also support PayPal which I've had a lot of people ask for, so that's a win too.

<comment><USER18> While the overall complexity of the integration is less than Stripe, i feel like the whole thing is still in beta stage. There is no real isolated test environment, the suggested way of doing this is to give yourself a refund or work with $0 products.

<comment><USER19> I just have a secret 100% off voucher code for testing. It's not perfect and I'd would prefer a real test environment, but it does the job fine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> We use Stripe to process credit card payments and we're adding support for ACH soon. Recently they made some changes to pricing (charging for Radar and non- US cards) that was surprising but otherwise they've been amazing. Great tooling support, great customer service and overall great platform.

<comment><USER21> >ACH soon

What is your approach to bank account verification? Plaid/Yodlee, a more traditional "deposit x money, ask for verification", or both?

<comment><USER22> We use Cliq.com for ACH for about 3 years now moving lots of transactions. Amounts are from hundred to low single-digit thousands (<$10k) about 200/wk. API is not as mature as Stripe but you can't beat the cost at $0.20 per transaction.

We mostly do outbound so no verifications are done

<comment><USER20> Interesting. Haven't heard of them but I'll check them out. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I have a small side business that makes a physical product. I've used PayPal for years with no issues, touch wood. There are two things that I like:

1\. I don't have to write code or maintain a server to process payments. I realize that I'm an outlier for not wanting an API, but my business web page is completely static, and it's convenient for me to keep it that way.

2\. They are unified with USPS for shipping, which has the best rates and service for packages that weigh just a few ounces. I can click on a button in PayPal and it spits out a USPS shipping label for me.

I greatly prefer not having to handle any of my customers data. The only info I ever see is their shipping address and whatever e-mail address they signed up to PayPal with.

</comment><comment><USER24> We[1] use Stripe[2], Braintree[3], Coinbase Commerce[4], and GitHub Marketplace[5].

We built our own quote logic including prorating, etc. then apply that as recurring subscription using Braintree if customer wants to pay with PayPal, or Stripe if customer wants to pay with credit/debit card.

Breakdown by processor:

73% Stripe

26% Braintree/PayPal

0.7% GitHub Marketplace

0.3% Coinbase Commerce

[1]: [https://wakatime.com/](https://wakatime.com/)

[2]: [https://stripe.com/](https://stripe.com/)

[3]: [https://www.braintreepayments.com/](https://www.braintreepayments.com/)

[4]: [https://commerce.coinbase.com/](https://commerce.coinbase.com/)

[5]: [https://github.com/marketplace](https://github.com/marketplace)

<comment><USER25> Is there any use policy restriction on Stripe, Molly and/or Braintree that would prevent one to dynamically select one or another payment provider depending on the quoted fee for a given customer (card type, country, currency...)?

<comment><USER24> Not sure, but I know other companies use multiple payment providers too usually for redundancy. We would use Stripe for everything, except Stripe doesn't have the ability to accept BTC or PayPal.

For the same reasons as rwieruch's comment above, some international customers prefer PayPal: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22178646](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22178646)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Our company is based out of India selling online courses for Data Science community and we use two payment providers: Instamojo and Paypal. Instamojo is for Indian cards and Paypal is for international payments. We could have used Instamojo for all payments but many customers like using Paypal as they don't have to worry about saving credit card information with some random payment provider.

Stripe just came out of private beta in India but their processing fees are pretty high. We are looking at two providers as they are promising better fees. Razorpay and Payu:

\- Razorpay is pretty much Stripe of India with the documentation and UI similar to Stripe.

\- Payu is an old dog in Indian Payment Industry with good sales team but bad integration and overall product.

<comment><USER27> Rajorpay customer support is pathetic. I tried to open an account with them and their replies are automatic emails.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I use Paddle, because they handle the intricacies of international VAT which is getting more and more complicated. I'd love to use Stripe, but I'd have to use something like Taxamo in combination with it. Since I was one of their first B2B customers I managed to negotiate a good rate with them, otherwise they'd be reasonably expensive. I've been generally happy with them.

</comment><comment><USER29> I use Stripe and PayPal. PayPal accounts for about 30% of my revenue. As another data point, I get easily 10x more requests for Stripe integration on [https://divjoy.com](https://divjoy.com) than all other payment options combined. Devs overwhelming want to use Stripe.

</comment><comment><USER30> Pin Payments, for cards.

They have an Australian focus but global capability. If you use a scheme card for Fastmail, you probably paid via Pin Payments.

Pin have a Stripe-like API but a small-team feel during contact i.e. we know one another by name, and when escalating a technical query I've had dialogue directly with a dev lead. I've even received hand-written Christmas cards from them.

I live in mortal terror of Pin being bought by Stripe, or (worse) an Australian financial institution, with all the consequences for competence and customer service level that follow.

We also handle bulk/large payments via CS2 (the Aus equivalent of ACH, for Usonian readers), with handling fee.

<comment><USER31> I've been using Pin since very early days. Dev experience is great, the API is well thought out and documented.

Your fear about Pin being bought by an Australian financial institution may be unfounded (or it's already happened depending on your perspective). Back in the early days, it was fairly well known that National Australia Bank was a part owner in Pin, but I can't find anything to support that now. NAB is listed first on their partners page ([https://pinpayments.com/company/partners](https://pinpayments.com/company/partners)) and their Terms of Service ([https://pinpayments.com/terms/national-australia- bank](https://pinpayments.com/terms/national-australia-bank)) are a 3 way agreement between NAB, Pin and yourself.

I'm sure it would be worse if Pin was fully absorbed into NAB though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Authorize.Net is what we've used for online payments and our internal subscription processing for over a decade. API is easy to use. Never really had any downtime. Rates are competitive. No one has come along and given us much of a reason to change.

<comment><USER33> Authorize.net is OLLLLLLLLD school. Its the primary merchant service that is recommended/resold by banks.

I ended up choosing stripe but only because Stripe has better branding and was 'cooler' to use.

<comment><USER34> When stripe first came out my initial thought on the API was "these guys got tired of Authorize.Net"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> The FDA/DEA have waged war on the kratom industry in extralegal fashion; I've had my personal bank accounts and credit cards shut down without explanation via [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point).

With Operation Chokepoint over, the DEA/FDA still have colluded to prevent the kratom industry from processing credit cards. For my website www.getkratom.com, we take checks, echecks, and cryptocurrency. Sales are about 1/3 of what they were when we were able to take credit cards.

<comment><USER34> If you created a obfuscated company name GTKTM, INC and created a Stripe account and a front as some legit SAAS/products but really ran through the charges for your Katom product sales... wonder how long you could fly under the radar.

<comment><USER35> There are high risk merchant processors that specialize in enabling things like this but it isn't happening, visa/mastercard have really colluded under pressure from the feds to try really hard to make sure that no kratom merchants have credit card processing under any circumstances whatsoever.

At my sales volume I can't reasonably fly under the radar this way; I'm sure a tiny or start up operation could for at least a little while but it's not sustainable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I use [https://pinpayments.com/](https://pinpayments.com/) to accept credit/debit cards. My target market is 100% Australian so it was an easy option for me, but it won't be suitable for most people here.

<comment><USER37> I use them too, and have been extremely happy with the service I've received so far. I'm based in Australia but sell mostly to overseas customers and bill in USD. They take a 4% cut this way, but don't hit you with a currency conversion fee like PayPal do.

I used to use Stripe, but had an issue where my account was flagged as fraudulent by their ML model for God knows what reason. They sent me a link to click on to provide more information and escalate the issue, but the link went to a 404 page. I forwarded the email to their support but never heard back from them. Tried to call them, no dice. That's when I realised my business was relying on a service which could go down at any moment and didn't provide adequate phone support. Cancelled the account and signed up with PIN Payments on the spot. The few times I've spoken to them, I've received a response from a real person that actually knew what they were talking about. Couldn't recommend them more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> 100% PayPal, despite the horror stories. Why? Micropayment account alongside regular account. A majority of payments are less than US$12, many are US$1 and on the latter I save 23c per transaction over typical rates (PayPal or other processors).

Customers from Turkey, Pakistan and a few other places are not happy (PayPal banned in their territories), but for the most part, few complaints. Ancient key/value pair API continues to work, which is nice.

Hate their website, hate the lack of ways to get reports, particularly on subscriptions.

Could be done so much better (and likely is), but the micropayment account saves me thousands of dollars a year.

</comment><comment><USER39> Stripe for credit cards, run own nodes for cryptocurrency because customer privacy is important in certain scenarios for me.

</comment><comment><USER40> I am also interested in this question but would also love to know the average percentage people are paying. It's always been interesting to me how stripe (and the like) are basically a premium over less polished tools like Authorize.net but are able to charge as much as a percentage point more for basically the same thing.

I've built payment integrations my entire 20 year career and have always appreciated how ease of use relates to cost, e.g. it's hard to build tools as easy to use as stripe or Braintree, but I've wondered how these features play out when it's so close to the actual money itself.

<comment><USER41> Is Authorize.net not also 2.9% + 30 cents? ([https://www.authorize.net/sign- up/pricing/](https://www.authorize.net/sign-up/pricing/))

<comment><USER42> I believe that is for the all-in-one option. And I do not believe Authorize.net offered that a decade back. Anyways, if you already have your merchant account, it is only 10cents a transaction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I'm actually implementing our Stripe integration as we speak. Super straightforward to get it done, with tons of documentation and example, and the Elixir library is fantastic.

</comment><comment><USER44> Exclusively Paypal. I've had nothing but extremely positive experiences, but form what I hear, when it goes bad, it goes really really bad. I'm looking into other options

<comment><USER45> It's actually easy to understand when PayPal 'Goes Bad'

1) When you collect money long before a user might file a chargeback - like if you're selling tickets for an event that will happen in 5 months, or if you're selling a product that you'll be shipping much later.

2) When your 'pattern' changes dramatically. eg, you've made 5k/month worth of sales for the past 2 years and this month you've suddenly sold 20k.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> We use both Paypal and Stripe for international (worldwide) payments. Most customers seem to prefer Paypal, and Paypal is set up so that we don't have to do anything - we just receive an email on purchase, while we need a server in the middle for Stripe.

Paypal is significantly more expensive. Recurring subscriptions are really bad (the "vintage" UI is stuck circa 1999).

But what's really bad is that at some point, after 5 or 6 years of significant usage, someone calls us once at 4.30 PM, gets no answer, and flags us as "suspicious". At that point, we could not retrieve any money for the account, could not call anyone (you cannot contact the fraud team - we'll call you back), and it started a lengthy (like, a couple of months) process where we were asked a lot of previous information in order to unlock the account. I mean, I understand you may want/need more information, but you talk to us first and then, if you do not receive good answers, you lock the account. Our bank charges per year way less than PayPal and gives us an account who knows who we are, comes visit yearly, and whose mobile number I have.

So, even if we still use Paypal by popular demand, I'd rather not.

</comment><comment><USER47> Stripe and an in-house Bitcoin backend

Funny thing is that I'm working on debugging an issue with the Stripe API right now (or the library I'm using)

</comment><comment><USER48> Elavon for direct card (they supported 3DSecure early back in the day), PayPal, and Bitcoin. We used to support Western Union, but we got blocked after a random amount of funds was received, their support was not able to help.

Business is for digital goods.

Would like to support worldwide bank transfers if it can be safe and quick for both sender and receiver, anyone got any tips?

</comment><comment><USER49> For Nordic/European customers, you should check out Mondido, which provide local payments and a lot for smart added value.

</comment><comment><USER50> We use Stripe for usage-based billing of our video calls API.

We wrote a blog post about how we built on top of Stripe's "subscriptions" API: [https://www.daily.co/blog/implementing-api-billing-with- stri...](https://www.daily.co/blog/implementing-api-billing-with-stripe)

</comment><comment><USER51> Multiple businesses but most common is direct wire transfer/bank transfer. The smaller business: generate invoices, send them to the customer, customer has a few choices, the only international ones are IBAN or PayPal (adds fees). Most common used is direct bank transfer. AVG transaction: €2500. Larger business: mostly commerce payments, over 90% is iDEAL (Dutch native payment system - does instant wire transfers between Dutch banks), the rest is either Apple Pay or by invoice/manual bank transfer. Some sub-0.1% uses Credit Cards but it almost costs more to keep it available than the revenue it generates. In all cases we use native banking APIs, no middlemen/broker/processors, except Credit Card. AVG transaction: €50.

</comment><comment><USER52> Has anyone used Payfort (now an Amazon subsidiary), which is a payment processor for GCC (and MENA?) countries? I've never used them, but their terms of service seem to explicitly prohibit being used for software sales. I was wondering what else is available in the GCC countries that permits software subscriptions. For example, Chargebee seems to support transactions in AED, but it is not clear whether they can be used, for example, by an UAE-based LLC.

</comment><comment><USER53> Bitcoin.

<comment><USER54> How many payments have you processed? I thought Bitcoin died as a payment medium.

People have figured out that the overhead is only about $0.50 if you're willing to wait, but most consumer apps don't make it easy to default to the lower fee.

(I haven't looked into this for some time, so that last paragraph is a bit dated.)

<comment><USER55> It is worth mentioning that today "you're willing to wait" actually means just some minutes.

I've actually started using BitCoin to pay for things recently and I was surprised to find out how easy and quick this actually is. This really is a no-bullshit electronic cash. No registration, no verification, no borders, quick and easy. I hope more goods and services are going to be offered for cryptocurrencies in future.

<comment><USER56> How do you deal with the price volatility?

<comment><USER57> I use CryptoWoo plugin for BTC payments and I use KyberSwap WooCommerce plugin for erc20 payments, you can select if you want to convert to DAI at checkout. BTC I just take the risk and believe it will keep appreciating in value over time.

We've processed over $200k in orders with over $100k being in BTC and ETH payments since 2017. Crypto merchandise website.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> At our price range (most invoices are $10k-$50k and in the US), we generate and send invoices from Xero, our accounting software. Customers can pay via check, wire, ACH or Credit Card, and they typically do checks or ACH. For additional context: we automate customer service for ecommerce companies in the 50-500 employee range. Payment methods vary depending on the company size, localization, sector, payment size, etc.

</comment><comment><USER59> Stripe.

Love the developer friendly aspect, and their customer service is awesome.

Due to a misunderstanding[1], they believed our service violated their TOS. Stripe offered us a week to migrate AND suggested a competitor that allows those types of Txns.

Luckily, with a message to Customer Support (via Twitter) we resolved the misunderstanding and never had to migrate.

Also worth noting, the issue was addressed on a Saturday.

1: Stripe mistakenly thought we were doing online prescriptions.

<comment><USER60> Did you have to escalate via twitter or did you try other options first?

I'm asking because if twitter was the first escalation and it worked, Great!

If twitter was another resort after unsuccessful support.... not so great.

<comment><USER59> I first went through their online support, but quickly followed up over twitter (which IIRC they handle support issues as well).

I felt satisfied with the level of effort I had to put in to resolve the issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> We used GoCardless to set up Direct Debits. We were taking large-ish recurring payments (£100s) and GoCardless was the cheapest as they cap at £2 a transaction.

Their service was great and was trivial to interact with. We were working only in the UK, and Direct Debit isn't available everywhere but GoCardless offers some equivalent in a lot of countries.

</comment><comment><USER62> We use MangoPay.

The customer service or tech support isn't as great as Stripe but they have a really intuitive model for marketplaces

<comment><USER63> Yes, it's a really great service. If you want to see how it can be implemented, please have a look at [https://sellcodes.com](https://sellcodes.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Several of my hospitality clients have started with Square. The CC fees are straight forward <= %4.

There are third-party partners who extend on the platform. (I'm looking for a simple option for invoices-statements without trying to compete as Online Bookkeeping service.)

</comment><comment><USER65> I'm in the process of starting up a side business for my wife, making and selling physical goods. I'm in Sweden, and the go-to here is Klarna. They have their issues, but integration with WooCommerce was a breeze and people have come to expect Klarna as the default way to pay online.

<comment><USER66> There's also Billogram (in Sweden), I like them

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> I'm a complete dinosaur using Paypal. It emails me when there's a payment and I manually respond to the customer. They have to wait until I check my email since I don't even get notifications. Sorry customers. Paypal is a nightmare of course. Don't be like me.

</comment><comment><USER68> At my current company we use Spreedly to integrate with the payment gateway. Idea is to have multiple payment providers in the background, which is fairly simple with Spreedly (they offer a single API, while large nr of supported psps in the background).

We also vaulting the cards there.

</comment><comment><USER69> Stripe

</comment><comment><USER70> We used both stripe and paypal. Now we have consolidated everything to stripe. Larger payments we use paper checks and wire transfers. Pricing wise both paypal and stripe are not very different.if you process large amounts you can get discounts from both

</comment><comment><USER71> Chargify. JUST DON'T DO IT! It's very limiting, the api sucks, and it's expensive. We got locked in by a dev before I was a part of things and I think before Stripe (maybe not.) Either way; just don't.

<comment><USER72> 1000% this. We started using chargify before Stripe when there were very few options and they were cheap.

They increased pricing and added a bunch of features we dont use, plus our payment processor (DPS now Windcave) refuse to export our customer card data.

So for the past few years we are slowly migrating people away as they update their card details, but its been a frustrating experience.

Don't use Chargify or DPS/Windcave

</comment></comment><comment><USER73> I own my own payment processing company and gateway, so I use that. I do sometime recommend Stripe and Square to Clients but Stripe for most people is a no go in Canada because of the 7 day deposit delay.

</comment><comment><USER74> I create invoices using invoiceninja, which are payed via banktransfers mostly and via mollie payments for the smaller amounts.

This is usually an ideal payment in .nl, and various other payment methods in other european countries.

</comment><comment><USER75> We use Stripe, Braintree (just for paypal billing agreements) and Mollie for certain EU payments. Mollie we only do annual payments since they are mostly non recurring payment options.

</comment><comment><USER76> Services work invoiced through Bonsai, typically paid via ACH with some credit cards mixed in. Stripe handles the ultimate money movement.

SaaS - mostly Stripe credit cards, with a tiny percent in PayPal.

</comment><comment><USER77> Paypal. Never had issues with them. Only problem is there are a few customers that are dishonest but they are just a couple of them Every year. Average transaction is 15usd

<comment><USER67> I dare you to try doing a withdrawl while overseas. You may have to prove you're not where you are before they'll reinstate your account.

<comment><USER78> This happened to me too. They thought it was suspicious that I was in Vietnam, so they brilliantly called my Canadian landline to verify that it was really me that was connecting from Vietnam (???). Of course, I was unable to answer...

PayPal is utter trash.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> Every client pays via CC except one by check and one by ACH. We use WePay which is connected to Freshbooks. We eat the 3% charge or whatever it is. Avg order size of $2,000.

</comment><comment><USER80> We use Paystand for Credit Cards (2.49% + 30¢), ACH and eCheck 25¢ 0%. Services business. Import transactions into Xero. Monthly fee $299. We pass the CC fee to customers.

</comment><comment><USER81> We use Stripe. Will be adding PayPal integration later this year. Many of our customers are in europe and they don't have credit cards. PayPal works best for them.

</comment><comment><USER82> Nobody have experience with 2checkout? I'm considering using it for a SaaS (they handle taxes, payout to latam), but the lack of references feels odd

</comment><comment><USER83> Braintree, planning to switch to stripe. Still looking for a good EU-compliant (Poland) solution for invoicing, having to do it myself right now.

</comment><comment><USER84> A mix of Stripe and Shopify's own billing system.

</comment><comment><USER85> Stripe's Payment Intent API

All done via serverless functions, for both initialisation and confirmation(via Stripe's webhooks).

</comment><comment><USER86> Ebanx, for the Latin America market.

<comment><USER87> +1 for EBANX! Though after talking with them and talking with Stripe I'm not sure we lose out on as many credit cards as Ebanx made it seem like we would when processing with Stripe in LATAM.

<comment><USER88> Do you do any processing in Mexico? If so - how do you deal with facturas?

<comment><USER89> Second this question. Live and work in Mexico.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> Adyen is a large player. Not quite as slick as Stripe but better rates.

<comment><USER91> Better rates if you do enough volume yes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> Oh, what about sales tax for SAAS in USA? Currently driving me mad.

<comment><USER93> I use taxcloud, and would be hesitant to recommend then. In the past they have made some mistakes (such as missing a filling) that resulted in a lot of headache to clear up. They have very poor customer service. It's been ok the last couple years, and I have not switched because it would be very painful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER94> Stripe/paypal

</comment><comment><USER95> Elavon

</comment><comment><USER96> Java:

public class PaymentRequest{}

public class PaymentResponse{}

Golang:

type PaymentRequest struct {}

type PaymentResponse struct {}

Kotlin:

data class PaymentRequest("")

data class PaymentResponse("")</comment>


Does Windows Phone 7 Have a Data Transmission Bug? - <AUTHOR> http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/01/03/1558244/Does-Windows-Phone-7-Have-a-Data-Transmission-Bug

<comment><USER2> [http://www.winsupersite.com/article/mailbag/Mailbag- January-...](http://www.winsupersite.com/article/mailbag/Mailbag- January-2-2011.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER3> I'd love to see a packet capture substantiating this claim.</comment>


Chin strap makes electricity from chewing - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29209200

<comment><AUTHOR> Saw this and thought "you can charge your phone over lunch"</comment>


Why C Students Are More Successful After Graduation - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/life-learning/10-reasons-why-c-students-are-more-successful-after-graduation-e5287760525f#.1uqt7k1jo <comment><USER2> This piece appears to beg the question - is there any evidence that C students _are_ more successful after graduation? Or that students who get a C grade are doing any of the things he talks about? Or is this a weak justification for why his own grades were poor and perhaps the average C student is actually a stressed out kid who is working a minimum wage job to help pay expenses and following every rule they can find/spending 40 hours a week drinking and watching football?

<comment><USER3> I think there's a certain category. I was an A and C student depending on how useful I expected a course to be. I also took much harder courses than my peers and social engineered my way into honors classes (I sucked at calculus, but this journal filled with abstract algebra I did for funsies says I can probably do honors analysis of algorithms). I think my in-major GPA ended up over a full point higher than my general GPA.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> From the article: The world doesn't need obedient and compliant factory workers anymore. The world needs artists, creatives, hackers, and innovators. We're done with apathetically living out our lives in school and at our 9-to-5 jobs. We're sick of it. We're done with it.

IMO, this is why our software is riddled with bugs, slow and generally low quality. Seriously, use the latest Facebook app on the latest iPhone 6s device over a gigabit wifi connection and watch how it lags and bugs out in multiple tiny ways. Software engineering has forgotten the engineering part. Our software should be as solid as the golden gate bridge, sturdy and solid for a 100 years. I believe it's the rigid 9 to 5 discipline that brings that sort of reliability, instead of treating devs like art college students.

<comment><USER5> >IMO, this is why our software is riddled with bugs, slow and generally low quality. Seriously, use the latest Facebook app on the latest iPhone 6s device over a gigabit wifi connection and watch how it lags and bugs out in multiple tiny ways. Software engineering has forgotten the engineering part. Our software should be as solid as the golden gate bridge, sturdy and solid for a 100 years. I believe it's the rigid 9 to 5 discipline that brings that sort of reliability, instead of treating devs like art college students.

Sounds like a lot of BS to justify your existence. People built bridges before they had the knowledge of physics to understand why they didn't fall over. Software hasn't even existed 100 years. Get over yourself.

<comment><USER6> They built bridges, sure, but they were usually over-engineered stone behemoths over relatively small rivers that didn't exactly require a structural engineer to calculate loads on. Pile on some rocks, arrange them in non-stupid way that won't fall apart under stress, throw some mud in the cracks between the rocks -- it's a bridge!

Anyone can build a bridge that stands. The trick is in building a bridge that barely stands, or suspension bridge that spans over a mile on strands of steel, with known tolerances to earthquakes and storms. You can't build the Golden Gate bridge without physics.

Anyone can throw together some software, put it on the Internet, and keep throwing more AWS money at it as needed. But software engineering is about constantly finding better ways, running simulations to model loads, using clever properties of math and information theory to reduce required resources and building code to do what's required of it as efficiently as possible.</comment></comment></comment>


Who to host with (domain names, web space, SSL, DNS) - <AUTHOR> http://benwerd.com/blog/2012/12/04/who-to-host-with-domain-names-web-space-ssl-dns/

<comment><USER2> I see where you're coming from about a VPS, but for most people, a $15/year VPS would be perfect for their needs. Granted, it only has 128MB-256MB RAM, the 10GB space and 500GB bandwidth per month is fine for a few thousand visitors per day.

I used to dabble in this sort of stuff when i was an early teen. Back then i'd be using free hosts such as 110MB (how the mighty have fallen) and free .co.nr domains. I found all talk about web hosting, servers and domains interesting, but eventually stopped messing about with scripts.

Fast forward a few years and i have some cash saved up from working part time. I manage to buy a few domains (some personal, some jokes and some for future plans) and some shared hosting with Dreamhost (it was $95 off). Even though i'm only serving some gifs and html, with a bit of Wordpress on another domain, i'm seriously happy about it.

Thanks for posting this. Also, your first link to Namecheap is broken.

</comment><comment><USER3> Cloudflare is the no-brainer for DDoS mitigation on the cheap, too. $0-200/mo vs. someone like Prolexic for ...$150k/mo, or building out your own redundant PoPs (1-3 good engineers, half time engineer to operate, maybe $200-300k in capex, and a baseline opex...but it does give you savings on bandwidth overall, so at scale it makes sense.)

</comment><comment><USER4> Namecheap link (the referral one) is broken. Extra _a href_ in there.</comment>


Employee error to blame for data leak, Wyze says - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/12/surveillance-camera-company-wyze-confirms-leak-of-user-data/ <comment><AUTHOR> > _Height, weight, gender, bone density, bone nass, daily protein intake, and > other health information for a subset of users_

According to a Lifehacker article, these biometric stats were also leaked. Why would Wyze need this data, and why would users provide it?

<comment><USER2> Here's whey they answer that thoroughly: [https://forums.wyzecam.com/t/updated-12-30-19-data- leak-12-2...](https://forums.wyzecam.com/t/updated-12-30-19-data- leak-12-26-2019/79046)</comment></comment>


Find a co-founder with this new MeetUp - <AUTHOR> http://www.meetup.com/Co-Founders-Wanted-Meetup/

<comment><USER2> I'm always skeptical of these gatherings that pair up potential co-founders, because I see it as trying to match up singles at a bar. The quality of the people tends to be lower, and the relationships very rarely turn into marriage.

And when you're working on a startup, your co-founder is very much your spouse, both personally and legally. The thought of going to a cafe to look for my future spouse feels rather grim.

<comment><AUTHOR> Bars don't ask for resumes when you come in.

Trust the organizers of the MeetUp to try to come up with a [slightly] better process...

<comment><USER3> But not a better venue, sadly.

Snarkiness aside, constructive criticism:

Somewhere accessible by train _and_ car would be ideal. Downtown PA has, at best, mediocre freeway access and parking.

Somewhere quieter than a bar or pool hall might be more conducive to conversation.

As much as I'm ashamed to admit it, the "trendy" impression I have of Blue Chalk is a personal turn-off. Besides, I'd want my potential co-founder to be frugal enough to avoid such an establishment pre-funding.

Perhaps something like the Hacker Dojo?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point. We'll probably change the venue to something very quiet, once we find a better host. I asked Sun. Hacker Dojo is a good idea too, but we'd need to find a host (otherwise it's $100/month to be a member?).

<comment><USER4> Hacker Dojo is probably ideal. I hate having "real" discussions at Blue Chalk. It's decently quiet around 1pm, but it gets pretty loud around 5pm and later. So unless you guys hold it at a decently quiet venue, i probably won't bother attending.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I just created this MeetUp based on my experience with <http://FairSoftware.net> and the Founder Institute: everyone who has a great idea also needs great co-founders.

But finding co-founders is tough. Doing it in person is a good way to go, hence this MeetUp.

Feel free to pass around to everyone who's interested.

Also, a discussion on how you met your co-founders would be great.

</comment><comment><USER5> It would be awesome if YC set up a cofounder "matching" service. Not anything they would have to manage, just a way to share what you bring as a cofounder, what you are looking for in a cofounder, and ideas you might have. It seems like a lot of these meetups end up being filled with "Social Media Experts" "Consultants" and "Idea Guys". A filter could ensure that hackers, designers, and other people who can contribute at an early stage could meet up.

I submitted some ideas to HN as a post a month back and met a lot of awesome people. Some way to help make connections (without having to resubmit ideas/info) would be great. Might also be a way to strengthen the applicant pool for YC too.

<comment><USER6> The problem is that YC doesn't think that is a good way to find a cofounder. Founder disputes are a top way for companies to die and are more likely the less well you know your cofounder. Maybe a cofounder from the internet is better than no one, but the best cofounder is someone you've known for years and trust.

<comment><USER5> I know YC is all about long term relationships between cofounders. I'm thinking something that would help start that relationship. People could find others with shared goals and similar interests and over time form partnerships. would be a long term project, but could pay off.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Brilliant. I've always liked Jobnob's "find people to help with your startup for free" events, where the participants can preview the companies and see which ones they would like to work for as well. I think it would also facilitate things if we had some kind of public wiki with which to display companies and/or individual's backgrounds.

</comment><comment><USER8> Here's a better venue: <http://superhappydevhouse.org/SuperHappyDevHouse35>

I've met my current and previous startup founders at these series of events. However, I've never gone there with the intention of finding a co-founder.

</comment><comment><USER9> Interesting idea, Silicon Valley is probably the only place where the ratio of business guys to coders might be slightly better than 90:10.

Are you going to do the TechMeetup style 2-sentence intro round the room? Organising hack-together sessions may also be worthwhile...

</comment><comment><USER10> Find a co-founder ... for a startup in 5 years' time. Because someone you just met is not likely to be marriage or co-founder material until you take the time to get to know them. At least judging by what I've read here.

<comment><AUTHOR> True. I believe in references. If a friend of a friend can vouch for you, then we should get to know each other.

The amazing thing is that in Silicon Valley, it's not 6 degrees of separation, it's more like 2. You and I probably have a friend in common! It helps to establish a co-founder relationship.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I typically plug www.hndir.com when I see this stuff (a directory of hacker news readers sorted by school). This will instantly tell you just about everything you'd find out from a 30-60 minute conversation in person. "What projects did you work on? What type of stuff interests you? Which languages do you prefer?" etc etc.

If you're outside the United States and you e-mail me your school's TLD, I'll manually add it. There are message boards and easy ways of identifying YC alum within. Notifications are a bit lacking at the moment.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sounds like a good idea, but your registration process is messed up. At least I'm not smart enough to figure it out :-)

I'm getting an "email required" when I click on "create account".

<comment><USER11> there are two sections: login and register. make sure you type your school e-mail into the last box on the page. sorry if this part is confusing, may change this soon.

<comment><USER12> your registration process sucks. i've seen so many complaints about it, including ones from me. i don't even know if my university email is still active. adding complexity doesn't add legitimacy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Are there 2-23 interesting entrepenurial people who want to grab a beer @ my modest office in SF financial district/northbeach to shoot the shit and talk ideas next Thursday or Friday afternoon, 4-6 PM? I have a couple cold cases that need drinking.

Drop me a line w/your preferred date and a bit about you and I'll get it together if there is interest - firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER14> I have something somewhat similar for people in LA: <http://www.meetup.com/hacker-codejam/>

It's more of a mixer/pair programming thing to test other people to see if they're compatible with you.

</comment><comment><USER15> I like Hackathon events better because you get an opportunity to work with other devs.

Google Campout and Startup Weekend are good hackathon events.

On a related note, who's going to DataCampSF next weekend?

</comment><comment><USER16> did these people read the latest essay from PG? (<http://www.paulgraham.com/really.html>)

you'll want your co-founder to be someone you know from some time before trying to found anything with him/her. you'll be a couple (or a threesome, or...) and a serious, long-lasting relationship can't be built on a blind date.

<comment><USER17> That's correct, but you're putting yourself in a place with other like-minded people and by meeting them in person in that context it gives you an opportunity to get an initial feel for someone to see if you want to continue the relationship further - maybe lunch to share ideas or working on a small project together - pretty soon you're building a real relationship. These meetings would be a starting point not an end point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Excellent idea - now if someone could just do it in Austin...

<comment><USER17> You could do it in Austin.</comment></comment>


East India Company -- The First LLC - <AUTHOR> http://history.howstuffworks.com/european-history/east-india-company-influence.htm/printable was responsible for several wars, started 2 soverign nations, had a huge private army and was the world's largest drug dealer at the time <comment><USER2> The first to offer public stock was its Dutch counterpart, the VOC, which in turn engendered the first stock exchange on 'Damrak' in Amsterdam in the same year (1602).</comment>


I'm being blocked by BT - <AUTHOR>

Hello all,
I found out that the Open Rights Group released a tool to check if your website is being blocked in the UK.
https://www.blocked.org.uk/
I'm a front end web developer and I put my portfolio in there. It turns out I'm blocked by BT.
After you check you have the option to look at a list of possible blocking reasons, and the only one I could think of was Hacking (coding and computer skills).
I find this extremely infuriating and I'm posting this to warn you guys to test your site and your clients' sites against it.
Thanks. <comment><USER2> Thanks for the tip, and I feel your pain in being blocked. Does the Open Rights Group have any advice on what to do in this case? I wonder if there's a reasonably low cost/effort legal avenue you could pursue against BT?

My feeling is that bad blocking behaviour can be challenged if we make it expensive enough for them to make mistakes like this, so we (and affected organisations with bigger budgets) should do everything we can to make their lives difficult.

Paul</comment>


When to Mock - <AUTHOR> https://enterprisecraftsmanship.com/posts/when-to-mock/ <comment><USER2> What bothers me about this article is that it doesn't really present alternatives or real-world examples of how to do what the author is saying.

> Use real instances of managed dependencies in tests.

Is the author suggesting I should spin up an entire instance of Oracle to run a single 50ms unit test? Because I often want to run my unit tests very frequently as I develop, ensuring I'm still green, etc. And my code may depend on an large, complex database. I could have a continually running instance just for my unit tests, but that's expensive (time, money, hosts, etc) and means I can't run my unit tests if the wifi goes down.

If we're talking about large, complete systems running very large suites of system tests as part of a CI/CD pipeline, then sure, I'm on board. Let's use a real database. But there's lots of other small, simple tests that absolutely don't need anything more than a mock while I work on business logic bugs.

And no, I'd not like to get into a debate of "you shouldn't bother to write small unit tests". I find them very useful.

<comment><USER3> Writing unit tests is debatable?

<comment><USER4> Unit tests are code, and all code has a cost. Writing unit tests without any benefit is harmful behaviour. Real world example: testing dumb getters/setters.

<comment><USER5> Writing getters and setters is harmf... - okay, I will stop before things escalate in here!

<comment><USER4> If you live in OOP land and have a natural aversion to directly accessing the data then by all means, write all the getters and setters you want. But testing that "int getX() { return X;}" actually returns X is pathological behaviour. It's harmful because 1) it costs to write 2) it costs to read 3) it takes up space, distracting from more important tests 4) it costs to run 5) prevents you from easily making changes (it's a brittle test). Can't really see any benefits; if you manage to screw up writing a dumb getter, how do you trust yourself that the test code isn't wrong as well?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For a long time, we ran our Django test suite against an in-memory SQLite DB. It was super fast, which encouraged more tests to be written and a CI/CD process that allowed everyone to confidently ship code often.

Our production database is postgres.

We kept bumping against things we wanted to do in the application code that worked well with postgres, but would fail in sqlite. We limited our development so that we could keep running the tests. We knew that we could run them against a postgres db, but the development time to rewrite our CI test runner to spin up a fresh database was not worth it.

Recently we migrated from github + Jenkins to gitlab + our own gitlab-runners in AWS. During that switch, we prioritized testing against a Postgres DB and got it all running in a containerized way that spins up at fresh DB for every test run. The tests are slower but the runners scale horizontally so we don't mind queueing up as many merge requests as we need to and deployments through Gitlab environments are a big improvement over our Jenkins deployment job, so we still ship as often as we want.

Now our biggest testing issue is keeping fixtures up to date.

<comment><USER7> if you keep using sqlite for tests it forces Your database logic to be universal. You could confidently switch to other db like mysql any time.

<comment><USER8> It also means that you have to stick to the lowest common denominator, which is approximately equivalent to the state of the art as of a quarter century ago.

Every benefit has a cost. The benefit doesn't always justify the cost.

edit: To add to that - I've seen more than a couple major database engine migrations in my day, so it's not to say that that isn't a concern. But none of them has ever been from one SQL RDBMS to another. More common is migrating among different classes of database. MySQL to Mongo, Oracle to BigTable, Couch to Cassandra, something like that. MS Access to MS SQL Server a couple times, but even those are different enough that it was never going to be as simple as changing the connection string and having a carefree life.

The speculative future proofing that you do almost never manages to work for the future you end up actually living.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Panic closed the tab when a giant form popup appeared asking for my email. Hate to add noise to the discussion, but I hope the author sees this and understands the market doesn't want this and reduces readership.

<comment><USER10> These kind of CTAs are everywhere these days and it's rather frustrating. Wish there was some solution to filter out sites that use completely not-ignorable (like in the corner) CTAs.

<comment><USER11> > Wish there was some solution to filter out sites that use completely not- > ignorable (like in the corner) CTAs.

uBlock Origin, if the default filter lists don't catch it just right-click and block the element.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So, disclaimer: I'm about to focus on the finger instead of where it's pointing. Because that's what I feel like jabbering about right now. TFA isn't just about databases; it makes some interesting points on test practice in general, and is well worth a read.

Anyway,

A story I've seen all too often when mocking the database: A large development effort goes into creating test infrastructure. And then there end up being scads of bugs that weren't caught by the unit tests, because the test doubles for the database don't accurately emulate important behaviors and semantics of the real database.

This isn't just a problem with mocking, mind - it's also a problem I've seen (albeit less often) when using some other DBMS during testing because it's designed to operate in-memory.

Nowadays it's not too hard to configure a RAM disk for the DBMS to use. Especially if your test stack runs it in Docker. If you're having performance problems with your test suite, start there. You might never achieve the same run times as you could with mocking, but, if there's one thing they hammered on in my Six Sigma training that I wholeheartedly agree with, it's that you shouldn't sacrifice quality or correctness for the sake of speed.

It's also not too difficult (not any more difficult than going hog-wild with mocks, anyway) to set up a mechanism that uses transactions or cleanup scripts or similar to ensure test isolation, so I don't find that complaint to be particularly compelling. You can even parallelize your tests if you can set things up so that each test is isolated to its own database or schema.

<comment><USER12> > scads of bugs that weren't caught by the unit tests

Which is fine! Unit tests will never catch all the bugs - neither will type safety. Neither will code reviews. Neither will manual testing. But unit tests do catch the kinds of bugs that unit tests are good at catching, which eases the burden on the manual testers.

<comment><USER13> > because the test doubles for the database don't accurately emulate important > behaviors and semantics of the real database.

Commenter implies that bugs occurred in code that was assumed to be tested and correct (according to the test specs) because it did have tests. Which is decidedly Not Fine.

Now, would I consider them to be "unit tests" in this case? Probably not. But the label you decide to slap on the test doesn't change the fact that a spec was written and code was tested against it and passed (falsely) due to mocking the db.

<comment><USER8> Whether, in practice, I would consider them to be unit tests probably depends on what my colleagues want to call them, and little else.

Personally, I do prefer a more classicist definition, because I believe that's the more pragmatic one. But I also believe that arguing over the definition of the term "Unit test" is one of the most wasteful possible examples of bikeshedding. Like you imply, the only thing that really matters is the extent to which your test suite gives you confidence that the software behaves correctly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> UK-Al05 Most of the reason for 'mocking' databases is because of performance reasons. If you have 8000 tests, having a fake database drastically increases performance.

One trick I use is that I write a in-memory version. I use that in unit tests.

I then write integration tests, that check behaviour of the InMemory and RealVersion are exactly the same. I inject either version into the same tests. They also check I haven't broken any code in the RealVersion which isn't been covered by unit tests mostly because its just external interaction in there.

If you have to verify inter-service interactions, use contract tests.

</comment><comment><USER14> Our trick is to use SQLite to completely side-step the concern of maintaining any sort of central testing database. Each developer can clone a fresh copy, load the .sln, hit F5, and every database required by the application is immediately available within the same process. There is absolutely no other software required to be installed.

This also makes it infinitely easier to coordinate complex schema changes. Each developer can sort it all out on their local branch before we even know about it. If we had to share some common test database, this would become a much more painful process.

Also, I do not believe in using mock layers for the database interactions. Our service implementations are tightly-coupled with their backing datastore. This is the only way we are able to make SQLite a viable storage medium for a high- throughput business application. As a consequence, testing our services in absence of their concrete datastores would be an extremely disingenuous endeavor for us.

<comment><USER15> Are you using SQLite as your main production datastore or you're using sqlite as a standin for something else? It sounds like production. One db file or several? How big? Can you summarise the non-test benefits and costs?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> > Retrieving data from the database is an incoming interaction — it doesn't > result in a side effect.

Unless you count the time taken to retrieve the data as a side effect. If you are implementing a cache with a well specified behavior then you might want to test incoming interactions.

Anyway, this just shows that having a side effect can be a matter of perspective.

</comment><comment><USER17> You should never mock anything. Test against the same dependencies that exist in production.

If that's impossible (i.e. you get charged for the backends or you are controlling physical objects), then generalize the program to support alternative backends and frequently test only those that can work in the test environment, using some more ad-hoc methodologies for the others.

Also, in general, if you need to change your tests for valid changes in the implementation, then your approach to testing is completely broken. An example are dumb testing strategies where you check that the code produces specific SQL queries instead of checking that the code returns correct results.

<comment><USER18> > Test against the same dependencies that exist in production.

Interesting. I said this at my work recently and I got a condescending explanation about how production things are _production_ , we don't touch them. If we need stuff for development, those are dev things.

I now think that whether this is or isn't a good idea depends on specifics. Most often than not, I think it makes sense.

<comment><USER19> I think parent means test against the same code, not against the same instance as production. Tests don't get to talk to the production database, but should use the same database software, deployed as similarly as possible, as production does. Against test/demo versions of APIs if possible. ...

<comment><USER20> With an identical schema to boot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> If your database is mutable then you have a third party network resource, essentially you can't test it because you have no stable basis in time and no means of dealing in values

All you have is a shared place, mocking is essentially putting up a fence around it to prevent testing into that boundary

If your database is immutable and is indexed for time travel, you can rewind or fast-forward your database into your desired state, if your database supports speculative writes you can even build up a non-committable state

I'm sure Rich Hickey will have a talk on this in relation to databases

</comment><comment><USER22> This article uses the Mock/Stub distinction exactly reversed from how I've always heard it. Naming things is hard.

<comment><USER23> The article uses a Mock/Stub distinction very close to the famous _Mocks Aren 't Stubs_ article by Martin Fowler [https://martinfowler.com/articles/mocksArentStubs.html](https://martinfowler.com/articles/mocksArentStubs.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> There are cases in which this is nearly impossible, especially when you rely on products/services delivered by other teams/companies. That said, whenever mocking can be avoided, should be avoided at all cost. I've been a witness of the "but it works on my computer" situation precisely because of that(and subsequently suffered from it immensely). Especially during the development phase(even if that means pulling 6-7-8 containers, do it): Someone misread the documentation and instead of "package_signature" used camel case in their code and used that. Of course it works on your local... Now could you give us back the 3 hours trying to solve it, please?

</comment><comment><USER25> This is one of the reason I don't like to put application logic directly in the database.

It makes everything harder: caching, testing, abstracting, balancing, etc.

<comment><USER4> Where do you draw the line between a query and application logic? Does a join or aggregate function count as application logic?

On another note, a few hours/days spent implementing application code can save you 5 minutes of writing SQL.</comment></comment>


How Microsoft Made the Right Bets on Azure - alok-g http://www.drdobbs.com/cloud/doing-it-right-how-microsoft-made-the-ri/240163573

<comment><AUTHOR> Azure has greatly improved over the past 12 mos. Only good news for us developers the more that AWS and Azure compete with each other.</comment>


Wikipedia Turns 15 - <AUTHOR> https://15.wikipedia.org/ <comment><USER3> I was talking to a friend the other day and came up with a term to sorta quantify what I consider perhaps the most important revolution of my lifetime: TTK or Time To Knowledge.

The example I always use, the occasion when it first occurred to me, was a couple years ago when, for some reason, I decided I wanted to make a foam for a cocktail. Within 5 minutes, I had found a video on Youtube illustrating how, not to mention a dozen other sites documenting various techniques.

I imagined being back in the 1980s or 90s and confronting the same wild impulse. How would I have figured this out? Asked a couple people perhaps. Contemplate a trip to my local library. Maybe make a mental note to chat with a bartender next time I found myself at a cocktail bar. Probably just give up on the idea and go back to watching the A-Team.

This is a rather trivial example. But then consider the ease and dramatically lowered TTK where programming knowledge (via StackOverflow) or general knowledge (Wikipedia) is concerned. The internet itself cut the lag. But it was first Google, then Wikipedia, that turned TT#$&!%&@ (Time To me cursing that I have access to all this potentially useful information that I can't quite seem to reach) to TTK, Time To (real meaningful well-organized) Knowledge.

<comment><USER4> All magic comes at a price.

You could have learnt other tricks of the trade, could have made new friends talking to that human bartender.

Talking to someone who is a master at something is far more valuable than asking the internet specific questions - how do you know what questions to ask...

<comment><USER5> The internet's supply of masters is much larger and more accessible. Is there a reason to think the video or other sources he found are from someone inferior in expertise to a local? Does that reason apply even for people who live outside major urban centers?

Also, that line of thinking is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remember the most likely outcome before was recognizing the cost of acquiring the knowledge exceeded the benefit of having it; there would have been no learning at all.

<comment><USER6> Most online videos are made by people good at making videos. There not the same people that are good at making drinks or whatever.

<comment><USER7> I'm subscribed to YouTube channels devoted to crafts such as woodworking, cooking, metalworking, development, sewing, drink mixing, and others, and very few of them use professional equipment or editing software. Some of the most entertaining ones do, of course, but mostly because they started small and were able to grow their audience enough to turn it into a career, over the course of which they picked up the skills to improve the quality of the videos.

Those other skills form the foundation of successful online video channels, with the video skills following suit.

<comment><USER6> Yea, there are plenty of people worth following out there. But, a few minutes of random searching is probably not going to show you one of the gems. Unless, I am just bad at finding videos.

<comment><USER8> Consider then finding an on-line community of enthusiasts first. Like, in case of woodworking, /r/woodworking and some of the other subreddits listed in the sidebar there. Spend few minutes there, and you'll know where to find the best 5% of woodworking sources _available to mankind_.

Let me emphasize it - thanks to the Internet, you have access to the best knowledge and experience _entire humanity_ has produced. All it takes is some experience with using the Internet and spending little time on filtering links.

<comment><USER6> I think your vastly overstating what videos people put online.

I think woodworking is hard to qualify. So, let's simplify.

1) A master craftsman video demonstrating how to make an Italian style flat bread oven from someone that spent ~15+ years learning and building them.

2) One of those small but highly accurate mechanical clocks that's accurate enough for navigation at sea.

3) A European ed: (English) style saddle made by a craftsman, as in someone that made and sold 100 others before it.

I am sure there are at least a few hundred people with those skills world wide, but actually finding a detailed video made by one of them online seems much harder. As in something that's good enough to learn from not just advertising or a 'how it's made' video showing some highlights.

It's 3:30 EST on Friday. Let's give it 24 hours. ;)

<comment><USER7> Moving the goalposts to the furthest conceivable distance isn't going to prove anything to anybody. Nobody claimed you could completely master a trade skill just from watching YouTube videos.

<comment><USER6> The parent post (TeMPOraL) said:

 _have access to the best knowledge and experience entire humanity has produced_

Sure, you can find plenty of videos on how make a hard boiled egg, apply tile, or do a card trick... But, that statement seems way over the top.

PS: Though, this is one case where I would haply be proved wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I pay monthly to wikipedia, I use it tens of times a day, it is a fantastic unparalleled resource - a real public good.

Wikipedia is a proof of a utopian vision that infused the early web - <USER2> public rights wins public contribution.

Humanities collective knowledge is better distributed because of Wikipedia, a true wonder of the modern world.

IMHO, we must treasure wikipedia as it is not clear it could happen again and it embiggens us all.

<comment><USER10> I feel like wikipedia killed the web in a way. Anytime you search for something 95% of the time wikipedia is the first result and thus 99% of the time it is I go to it for information. What websites or innovations have we missed out on because of this?

<comment><USER11> Indeed, it's too bad that libraries were created as well. Just think of how many other knowledge sharing techniques would have been developed in its place. I know some of the other contenders were "smoke signals", "bird whistles", the list would be longer but I refuse to accept readily accessible, free sources of knowledge. And the smoke signals have been strangely quiet as of late.

<comment><USER12> In a library you get Bill O'Reilly and Howard Zinn and everyone in between. But on Wikipedia, you get the loudest and most obsessive voice.

<comment><USER13> Yeah.. Wiki's systemic culture problems have chased off a number of editors. The own admins don't even follow the site's rules when its convenient for them not to.

This is not a matter of opinion. One such rule is that there is a procedure to go through for deleting pages - I've personally been victim to a now-ex admin who killed a page I was working on, completely bypassing the checks and balances that are supposed to be in place. (Said admin was later kicked off the site for bot editing without approval, but not for ignoring deletion procedure.)

The site's still quite valuable as long as you avoid politically charged topics (and run, don't walk, from the talk pages), but they are open to being forked if this continues.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Whoa - Wikipedia has been around more than half my life already?

Good on them! It's one of the best things humanity has ever created. Hopefully they'll find a funding strategy that doesn't make them constantly feel like panhandlers. They provide uncountably huge value, yet I suspect with their current marketing, even very heavy readers rarely donate.

EDIT: Sounds like they are working on it: [https://15.wikipedia.org/endowment.html](https://15.wikipedia.org/endowment.html)

<comment><USER15> I find their campaigns rather effective. I have the impression they do a big surge once a year with banners everywhere on the site. I find it very effective at reminding you how wikipedia bring you value everytime you use it. At least it made me donate at each occasions and I don't consider myself as a heavy user (hardly one consultation / week), and I think it is the only project I have donated multiple times.

<comment><USER16> Is it really only once a year? I feel like I saw it several times last year.

<comment><USER17> It should be. There are sometimes banners for other things, though, like to announce the Wikimania conference: <[https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Calendar](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/CentralNotice/Calendar) >. There are apparently also smaller fundraisers aimed at different languages/countries at different times of the year, so maybe you remember one of them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Wikipedia isn't without its problems, but there's no doubt it's been a very positive force on the internet. I'm not sure there's been anything like it in human history, where most people can have such easy access to such a wide variety of encyclopedic topics for free. It's an equalizer for sure in education.

For casual readers like myself it's also a real pleasure to occasionally just dive into a section of history, follow the links around, and learn about the world. Same goes for various other topics but that's the one that came to mind.

Here's to hoping Wikipedia sticks around for a long time to come.

</comment><comment><USER19> Congratulations, Wikipedia! I found it tremendously useful over the years. I have one suggestion for them. I wouldn't mind making micro-donations for articles of particular quality and relevance to me. Say I find something useful and click on a '2c' donation button. The system doesn't trigger an immediate payment transaction because I would not have time to do it but instead waits until I accumulate $1+ in 'spend' and then displays another button 'Pay'. This way micropayments are easy for me as the reader and at the same time Wikipedia's transaction costs are minimized. Besides, I like to be able to pay later.

<comment><USER20> I think in that case I would somehow expect part of the money go towards the authors. By giving to Wikipedia as whole, it's easier to accept that I'm supporting the infrastructure and not the content.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> In the age of Unicorns, Wikipedia is truly the rare beast. Nothing is perfect, but Wikipedia has managed to not screw up one of the most impressive collections of information the world has ever seen. They haven't sold out (like say, Mozilla) and manage to fund one of the world's most popular web sites with an annual pledge drive. Bravo!

</comment><comment><USER22> Wikipedians are hosting free events across the world for "Wikipedia Day" this weekend.

* San Francisco (Saturday): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/San_Francisco...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/San_Francisco/Wikipedia_Day_2016)

* New York City (Saturday): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia_Day_2016)

* Boston (Saturday): [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/Boston](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/Boston)

* Bangalore (Sunday): [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/Bangalor...](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/Bangalore)

* London (Sunday): [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/London/101](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/London/101)

* Portland, Seattle, Vancouver (Saturday, meet Ward Cunnigham!): [https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/West_Coa...](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_15/Events/West_Coast)

New York will feature a talk about Wikidata, how to query it with SPARQL, and how we are integrating it with Wikipedia and pushing forward the Semantic Web. Other NYC talks include things like "Git-flow approach to collaborative editing", "Copyright and plot summaries", and "Automated prevention of spam, vandalism and abuse". We will be linking up with San Francisco and likely some other cities for a global teleconference at 4:00 - 5:00 PM ET (21:00 UTC).

If you're interested, sign up and stop by!

</comment><comment><USER23> I remember the announcement of the beginning of the project, probably on Slashdot. There was the call for participants.

I felt certain they would fail to achieve critical mass in order to become the large scale success that they have.

Glad to be proven wrong! And congrats.

I have contributed too. Here's hoping they solve the latest set of challenges with the insider community.

</comment><comment><USER24> The page is 2.5mb and took 18 seconds to fully load. Is that why they've been badgering us for donations for donations recently?

(I am being facetious; I bloody love Wikipedia and do donate, but you think they'd be more careful about this sort of thing)

<comment><USER25> It's true, though I think it's being hugged by HN right now. So that means slow transfers. It took ~10 seconds to get to 115KB. The good part is that the text loaded after the first 615B, so I was able to read it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I've always wondered if Wikipedia could come up with alternate revenue streams because of the huge amounts of people they touch, the mammoth cross section of content they have. And the kinds of traffic analysis they could do... Targeted ads? Analytics for companies (a medical, tech or other company could learn what their stakeholders are interested in), recommendation engines, content classification engines for media and news orgs (or even SEO or UX navigation conscious web devs) etc.. They could do these thighs gracefully. What do you think?

<comment><USER17> I for one sure hope that Wikipedia never falls so low as to have to run ads. :)

Which doesn't mean that there aren't any alternative revenue streams for the Wikimedia Foundation. But it's a very touchy topic here. Ideas I've heard is finding/accepting more large grants (rather rare now, since it affects the independence of the organization), collaborating with companies wishing to crawl the content (like search engines; nothing that isn't public, just easier access) or hosting MediaWiki wiki instances (many people want to run "their own Wikipedia" and there aren't very many good providers now).

Not that anyone is planning to switch to one of these models, as far as I know. But it's an alternative in case people stop donating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I was thinking just yesterday whether wikipedia will ever change its design or if it is timeless (unless devices change radically). I don't remember any major changes, I guess there were gradual that I didn't notice?

<comment><USER28> There have been design changes. The most noticeable one happened in 2010.[1]

[1]: [http://www.technorms.com/326/the-new-wikipedia-wikimedia- fou...](http://www.technorms.com/326/the-new-wikipedia-wikimedia-foundation- is-getting-ready-to-roll-out-design-changes)

<comment><USER29> In my entirely unqualified opinion, that's a very well done redesign; it looks the same, only better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I first encountered Jimbo back in the 80's when he ran the Moderated Discussion of Objectivist Philosophy (MDOP), an Objectivist mailing list that featured brilliant philosophical discussions among the stars of the Objectivist community. Jimbo's contributions were consistently excellent as well. [Anyone know if there's an archive anywhere?]

It was quite a surprise when he turned up years later in an entirely different context as a founder of Wikipedia - though I'm not surprised he did something big. His charisma showed in his MDOP contributions and he always seemed destined for something big. Congrats Jimbo, and all the other people who have made Wikipedia, for this amazing asset to humanity.

</comment><comment><USER31> I love wikipedia, and contribute when I can, it does a great service to us all. Where it fails though is regarding controversial subjects. It would be a thesis paper to get into the meat of the issue, but thats its weakpoint.

Which is why I love they have shared their system open source so others can use it.

The real issue boils down to a filter bubble problem, and google isnt helping avoid this. Its that people use wikipedia as a panacea and forgoe actually following sources far too often.

Shades of trusting trust but instead of compilers its editors and censorship.

</comment><comment><USER32> Pretty much the more important site on the internet. I make a small automatic monthly donation; you can set it up in a few clicks via [https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Ways_to_Give](https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Ways_to_Give)

</comment><comment><USER33> Use it occasionally and donate to it annually, happy anniversary Wikipedia!

</comment><comment><USER34> I support Wikipedia's efforts and would gladly donate once they sort out the NPOV issues on the site. A lot of power users think NPOV is their POV and revert anything they don't agree with.

</comment><comment><USER35> The grid is no grid on chrome. The boxes are beyond each other.

<comment><USER36> It's a grid in my Chrome, but only after loading js for another 15 years. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> "Wikipedia is no banners at the top of the page"

</comment><comment><USER38> They celebrated by sending spam email to past donors.</comment>


WordPress › WordPress 3.2 now available - <AUTHOR> http://wordpress.org/news/2011/07/gershwin/ <comment><USER2> Zen Mode in WordPress 3.2 deals a huge blow to Artsy Editor[0].

[0] <http://artsyeditor.com>

</comment><comment><USER3> I completely do not understand the mysql upgrade requirement.

They are not using any queries that are not supported on mysql 4.1 and for myisam use, 4.1 is faster than all later versions of mysql until version 5.5 (which is not available yet on many control panel based servers like cpanel).

<comment><USER4> The idea was to bump the requirements at the same time, to reduce the number of times a host would need to update their older systems.

The decision not to change any queries was made early on, 3.3 will bring a few query changes, There are queries which have been wanting MySQL 5 optimizations for awhile now, ultimately, this is going to bring performance improvements to (currently) 98%+ of users, with the remaining 2% likely to never update to 3.2+ or (based on your statement that 5 is slower than 4.1) slightly slower performance than previously,

Also, The WordPress stats[1] indicate that 2.7% of installs were on MySQL 4.1 (with 0.2% on 4.0, which was last supported on WordPress 2.8) - MySQL 4.1.2 has been required since WordPress 2.9.

[1]: <http://wordpress.org/about/stats/>

<comment><USER5> Kudos for making a sensible decision. It's much better idea to force your users to go through the pain of upgrading once rather than hitting them again with a MySQL upgrade in a version's time.

Genuinely glad to hear that WP has this foresight in their roadmap.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Zen Mode is amazing. I still don't like the blue theme (too light IMO), but the new dashboard is pretty great too. Haven't used it enough to tell the speed differences yet, but this seems like a very stable release. Good job WP team and all you contributors.

</comment><comment><USER7> I've been using QuietWrite[1] for awhile which already has the awesome quiet writing mode as default. Really polished UI. Par excellence webapp, that. One of the best things about it is its ability to publish to your Wordpress blog as well. I recommend anyone who has a Wordpress blog or just wants a no- clutter, awesome, developing writing environment to check it out.

[1]: <http://www.quietwrite.com/>

</comment><comment><USER8> The only issue now is their PHP 5.2.4 requirement which will keep from 15-20% of the users unable to update it:

[http://blog.sucuri.net/2011/07/wordpress-3-2-and-php- support...](http://blog.sucuri.net/2011/07/wordpress-3-2-and-php-support- security-effect.html)

<comment><USER9> The only way to get people to bug their hosts about upgrading PHP is to release popular software that requires it.. Without the demand to upgrade to higher versions, no host is going to bother.

<comment><USER10> My grief with this requirement is CentOS 5 only comes with php 5.1.6 without some hackery of special repos or self-compile... That affects a TON of hosting companies... especially with CentOS 6 still a few days away (which is a different challenge).

<comment><USER11> It was released in 2006, sure some hosting companies want to stay of the bleeding edge for fear of causing problems with the apps customers are running but if they haven't upgraded from that it's just laziness on their part.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I can't update my site (shared hosting) from 3.1.4 to 2.3 because it requires PHP 5.2.4 and MySQL 5.0. Hope the Wordpress team keeps releasing updates for the 3.1.x branch.

<comment><USER4> Please contact your host and get them to upgrade to something released in the last... 5 years or so?

However, 3.1.x is not going to be "officially supported" as a legacy branch AFAIK, If any security issues arrise in the coming months and the fix can be applied to both the 3.2 and 3.1 branches, you'll see those patches be applied to the 3.1 branch as well most likely \- So when 3.2.1 comes out, or 3.2.2, etc take a closer read of the announcement post and/or ask the question if a update is available for 3.1. Chances are, the SVN branch will already have the fixes applied: <http://core.svn.wordpress.org/branches/3.1/>

<comment><USER13> _Please contact your host and get them to upgrade to something released in the last... 5 years or so?_

As noted above: CentOS 5.6 was released less than 3 months ago, and CentOS 6 isn't even out yet.

Similarly for Red Hat. RHEL 5.6 was released less than 6 months ago, will continue to be fully-supported for another 3 years, and Red Hat can provide "critical impact security fixes" for another 3 years _after that_.

 _3.1.x is not going to be "officially supported" as a legacy branch_

WordPress.org have just screwed a lot of people.

Every RHEL 5 shop is now stuck between Scylla and Charybdis, trying to evaluate whether it is better to run with a web app that is unsupported, or an operating system with key, network-accessible components that are unsupported. And RHEL 6 shops are wondering which path they'll take in a couple of years time when PHP 6 become a requirement.

Any CentOS shop with seperate dev and ops teams is going to hate jumping onto the "now and forever you will have to recompile and reinstall PHP every month" bandwagon. There's a reason these folks are running a binary distribution, and they really don't have secret Gentoo-envy.

Also remember that installing a new PHP release is incredibly risky from an ops perspective. PHP has an awful track record of backwards compatibility, regularly changing APIs between _point releases_ , and every upgrade has a very real chance of breaking custom code which may not even have a development team any more.

<comment><USER4> Just because a Linux Distribution releases a release with an old version of PHP, it doesnt make it a current-generation PHP release.

Yes, It might have extra security patches applied to it[PHP], but Security is not the reason behind applications increasing their PHP version requirements.

Looking at the centos site, it seems that CentOs currently ships with PHP 5.1.6 (The latest in the 5.1 branch). 5.1.6 was released in August 2006, that's 6 years ago. _CentOs currently ships with 6 year old software?_

Ultimately, only 3.3% of all current WordPress installs are on 5.1.6, and i'd be willing to bet that most of those are sysadmins who are not willing to put the time into testing the PHP 5.2 packages that are available. WordPress has to do what's best in the communities interest, and if that's supporting somethin which 95%+ of hosts use, and the rest _have available to them in some form_ , then WordPress needs to move forward and that few percent will have to do something about it.

The same can be said about IE6, The WordPress Admin does NOT work in IE6 anymore (Well it does, but it looks even worse than 3.1 did). Many corporations run IE6 due to not wanting to update,

 _People need to bite the bullet and invest in their infrastructure and software environments_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> the concept is very good.

</comment><comment><USER15> <http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_3.2>

> ...the write page now loads XYZ% faster and paging through comments is ZYX% > faster

Wow, what an improvement!

<comment><USER16> If X and Z are both non-zero, that is actually pretty good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I hope the Onswipe theme got killed off in this release.

<comment><USER4> WordPress.com != WordPress.org Project.</comment></comment>


How I Went from "No-Idea" to "Profitable" in 15 Hours (including 6h of sleep) - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@jibly/how-producthunt-helped-me-go-from-no-idea-to-profitable-in-15-hours-including-6-hours-of-sleep-9398ff0bc55d

<comment><USER2> So you just started and somehow can give me advice on how to grow my business?

<comment><AUTHOR> luckily its not my first venture :) and its not about some magical advice, like explained on the site, it's about continuous experimentation to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

To grow your company you don't need magic. you need discipline. That's what Traction.vc is about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The best way to make money on photography/forex is to start offering photography/forex coaching. I guess this works for start-ups as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> that is indeed a very good tactic. Not only does it help you make some money, you get key insights into your clients mind. the words they use, the benefits they want etc. Which, if you would turn it into a startup, are extremely helpful, because then you want to scale it up on a large scale, so using the right words and speaking to the customer in a way he/she feels connected with your pitch is important.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> here's the product: [http://www.traction.vc](http://www.traction.vc) hope the story helps/inspires some people.</comment>


Not Everyone in Tech Cheers Visa Program for Foreign Workers - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/business/h-1b-visa-tech-cheers-for-foreign-workers.html <comment><AUTHOR> "Lawrence F. Katz, a prominent labor economist at Harvard, said companies like the H-1B visa program because it expands the pool of applicants. That means having to pay less in salary and retaining more control over employees.

"From the point of view of an economist, there are two big winners," he added. "The workers who come here with H-1B visas and the companies that employ them.""

</comment><comment><USER2> Wasn't designed as a way to lower wages.

<comment><USER3> Come come, we're all adults here! Surely as Americans we all believe in the Laws of Supply and Demand. It's quite simple: increase the supply and prices go down. Decrease supply, or increase demand, and prices go up. Basic free market economics.

No matter what official rationale for H-1B visas exists, the primary purpose is to increase supply and lower wages. And it's worked marvelously! Unfortunately, it's not Pareto Efficient, so there will be complaints.

<comment><USER2> It was for gaps in the free market. Raising the minimum will help with it's abuse.

The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States.

[https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm](https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/h1b.htm)

<comment><USER3> I don't believe your statement of intent, by the way. No matter what rationale for H-1B visas exists, the primary purpose is to increase supply and lower wages. And it's worked marvelously! Unfortunately, it's not Pareto Efficient, so there will be complaints.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


A surveillance drone that never needs to land - <AUTHOR> http://www.technologyreview.com/news/543196/this-surveillance-drone-never-needs-to-land/ <comment><USER2> Whats new in this? there are quite a few tethered surveillance platforms out there, even rotor based[0].

Heck we had a run away blip just a like a week ago that one is also a tethered platform in most cases and that actually doesn't need to land because motor powered tethered platforms usually need to land every X amount of hours / days just to let the engines cool down (some might have paired engines that can be spun up and down in order to maintain altitude while one of the paired engines is idling).

These platforms allow you to usually have much more powerful engines that can maintain the altitude of a much heavier payload but ofc are much less maneuverable, they are often used as very tactical surveillance platforms for various events sport games and other such venues, political rallies, news coverage and venue broadcasting (Elistair's[1] solution for example mainly sold for commercial broadcasting proposed and not homeland/border security) and critical infrastructure protection.

These aren't the type of drones one would use however for wide area persistent surveillance for those purposes Google's and Facebook's internet providing drones would probably be a better platform and ofc military extreme long endurance platforms like Global Hawk[2](which can be now also autonomously perform air refueling) were kinda designed for it

[0][http://www.uasvision.com/2015/05/14/iai-and-sky-sapience- par...](http://www.uasvision.com/2015/05/14/iai-and-sky-sapience-partner-on- tethered-hovering-aerial-systems/)

[1][http://elistair.com/](http://elistair.com/)

[2][http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2012/10/05.aspx](http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Releases/2012/10/05.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER3> I hope that technologists are also students of history. You do understand where all this is going don't you? What are you doing now to safeguard the future?

"Not my problem, won't happen in my lifetime" \- yes it will.

<comment><USER4> >I hope that technologists are also students of history.

Not in the good ol' USA they aren't. This is precisely why I cringe every time I hear the usual anti-intellectual rant about how STEM fields are the only thing worth funding.

If you're serious about creating benevolent technology, you must necessarily be in favor of funding the humanities.

<comment><USER5> Very good point, I think it's very telling that they seem to have minimal appreciation for those fields. These techies hate the Wall Street types but are quickly becoming them, like the nerds who became jocks.</comment></comment></comment>