Chromebooks winning in schools, Windows and Apple fight back - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/27/as-chromebook-sales-soar-in-schools-apple-and-microsoft-fight-back/ <comment><USER3> I volunteer in an after-school supplemental program for kiddos in public housing. Three years ago we scared up a grant to buy four iPads to help the kids do their homework.

Then a local teacher intervened and said, no, no, no, get Chromebooks. We did. We got six for the same money. They're compatible with the local school IT systems. They reset themselves when somebody logs off, so we don't have to worry about what the kids install on them.

THEY HAVE KEYBOARDS! Kids can use them to for written-word assignments without futzing around with the onscreen keyboards.

They aren't quite as game-focused as the iPads. That means we get less squabbling over who gets to use them and for what. (I've taken to leaving my iPad at home because it's an attractive nuisance.)

They're cheap enough that it's not the end of the world if one gets damaged.

The chromebooks are a big win for us and the kids we serve.

<comment><USER4> I hope you will find something equally good when Google decide to discontinue the OS.

<comment><USER5> Looks like you're still pissed at Google for shutting down Google Reader.

<comment><USER6> And Fiber rollouts and Wave and XMPP and a whole host [1] of other things it committed to... My favorite unfortunately-named one was Google Keep.

[1] [https://www.gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns](https://www.gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns)

<comment><USER7> As far as I can tell, that article doesn't actually name Google Keep as being shut down, and was in fact written shortly after Keep was released. Which is a relief, since Keep is exactly what I want from a notes app.

<comment><USER8> Yes, as far as I could tell then in 2013 (or now), Keep was alive. Given that it had just been released (and a sarcastic article on it was actually part of my impetus for that analysis), the survival model only gave it a 61% chance of surviving until 2018. As it's almost 2018 now and Keep is alive, that suggests (on purely statistical grounds) it has a better chance of sticking around for a while.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I work in EdTech. I never thought the ipad ever made sense in the classroom and I'm not surprised that a netbook is beating back the tablet.

Input onto a tablet is clumsy at best. It is essentially a passive device. Yes, you can add an aftermarket keyboard and and an after market stand, but now you have a three part hacked together netbook instead of one that's designed with a keyboard and hinge from the get-go.

Further, tablets are a magnet for damage. A laptop screen can take localized damage and still mostly work. A tabket screen shatters. Plus the laptop screen is set back within the monitor component and the overall center of gravity means that a netbook is more likely to land on the keyboard side.

Finally, the software story is best for windows (web and native plus great management features), decent for chromebook, and worst for ipads.

<comment><USER10> Even outside of education, I don't think the iPad is useful for anything other than consumption.

I've seen some creative types using drawing applications on it, which is cool I guess, but for the most part I don't see it replacing a laptop/desktop just yet.

<comment><USER11> My kids school district got iPads for all the students. Then they selected a math textbook that didn't work on the iPad.

I'm pretty convinced that the motivations for providing iPads or laptops for each student are almost entirely political and not educational.

<comment><USER12> Our child has one website that uses flash. I've removed flash from all our other computers except the one computer locked down to use just that.

How a school, and vendor, get away with requiring flash in 2017 is beyond frustrating.

<comment><USER13> School's online systems tend to be woefully behind the times. Usually online portals and e-textbooks are little more than patronizing nods to the students that have come to accept tech in their lives as a necessity rather than any meaningful attempt at bettering education.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> My kids are both in high school right now. My observation is that they are largely platform agnostic. Of course the browser runs on any platform. That's their "terminal" for everything. They use Google Docs on whatever computer they're sitting at, and have figured out its collaborative features.

Just a few years ago it was very important for them to have a computer with the latest version of Office installed on it -- one for every kid in case they both got assignments at the same time -- but the teachers are now largely comfortable with Google Docs or Whatever. That 3-user Office 2010 license is probably my last commercial software purchase ever.

So it seems that the choice of platform is something that the grown ups worry about, but it doesn't affect the kids at all. Their school seems to have gone with Chromebooks.

<comment><USER15> Thank God this finally happened.

About 8 or 10 years ago, my older daughters insisted that OpenOffice wasn't a "real" word processor, since it didn't look like MS Office on XP, and we were then running Ubuntu at home (since switched to OSX, but whatever...). Then one year, the school got "Vistafied", and the whole UI they were used to got scrambled. At that point, their eyes were opened, and they stopped complaining about the system at home being "different", as well as having to pay attention to using a compatible format, since MS graciously made them painfully aware of all that, anyway.

They are now pretty used to doing stuff on the net/cloud, with whatever disposable device/UI is around that year.

<comment><USER16> Sure. But the web app UX is clunky; it wouldn't be acceptable to have a desktop word processor with Google Docs' quality. It's a little sad if this is where the bar is set for kids, all in the name of cross-platform.

<comment><USER14> Indeed, what people are willing to give up in terms of UX, in return for other benefits (including cost), is something that continues to surprise the development community.

From what I've observed, just watching what the kids do, it seems that function trumps form. What Google Docs does for them is provide access to their documents anywhere, and by anybody within their collaborative group. They don't need a lot of the typesetting features provided by MS Office -- if they can't express something in one way, they find another way to express it.

It's only been recently, that we can test whether people are willing to give up UX, because MS Office had the same UX at all of its price tiers. For the same general functionality -- typesetting -- folks weren't willing to put up with the UX of Libre Office, which was clunky in its own way. So I suspect that what Google Docs offers is based on function and not price.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Apple seem to be in the same state of denial now that Microsoft were when Windows 8 came out. They believe touch-screen tablets are the future, and the way computing should be done, and ignore the desktop and laptop paradigm works much better for getting work done for a lot of people.

Microsoft realised their mistake and came out with Windows 10, which works well across both tablets and desktops/laptops. Apple seem to have doubled- down. The future looks prettier for the former.

<comment><USER18> There's just no real replacement for a keyboard and mouse.

And if I'm using those, why wouldn't I want a laptop?

<comment><USER19> The opposite is also true. Keyboards and mice are no replacement for a touch screen. I have a laptop with all three and I love it.

<comment><USER20> Actually mice/touchpad are a direct replacement that doesn't require you to hold your hand up awkwardly or get nasty fingerprints on your screen. The only things touch does better is allow gestures which could be input on your touchpad instead of directly on the screen.

Of course its useful on convertable tablets that can be used in tablet orientation.

<comment><USER21> Have you used a laptop with a touchscreen? Because I thought the same way you seem to until I did. A decade of getting used to touchscreen phones and tablets has made it feel really natural to interact directly with a screen. It's not world changing, but that extra input stream is a very pleasant addition, and sometimes it's just more natural to tap the screen directly.

<comment><USER22> _Have you used a laptop with a touchscreen?_

I have for about 18 months and I never use the touch screen functionality. In fact the only time it ever gets used is when someone else tries to point at something on my screen and of course that causes a click and they awkwardly say, "Sorry, I didn't know it was a touch screen."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm not a kid in school, but a highly paid software engineer and I have gone with a Chromebook. It does what I do, surf the internet and for 10+ hours on a single charge. When I want to do some programming, I just ssh into my several- year-old Linux desktop and use tmux + vim.

If ChromeOS opened up its Linux internals without using the crouton hack, it would destroy every other platform out there.

<comment><USER24> For a little more, you can get a Windows laptop that runs Office, Adobe Suite and a full Ubuntu environment per Windows Subsystem for Linux.

(I am a Mac user, but Windows + WSL would probably be my first choice after a Mac. Especially if Microsoft would stop spying on their users.)

<comment><USER25> And 3 hours of battery life.

There are Windows Laptops with good 10+ hour battery life (e.g. Thinkpads). But they aren't a "little more" they're $1K+. Chromebooks are around $250-400.

<comment><USER26> You haven't looked at Windows laptops in a long time. You can get a 15" 1080p laptop with 8gb of ram and a 256gb SSD that gets 10+ hours of battery life for just north of $500 now.

Here's an example with all that plus a dedicated graphics card for $549: [https://www.amazon.com/Acer-Aspire-E5-575G-53VG-15-6-Inch- Wi...](https://www.amazon.com/Acer-Aspire-E5-575G-53VG-15-6-Inch- Windows/dp/B01DT4A2R4)

Or without the dedicated graphics for $470: [https://m.newegg.com/products/N82E16834315779](https://m.newegg.com/products/N82E16834315779)

<comment><USER27> If its OK to play the "why not double the price" game then at $500 you're getting close to why not get a mac laptop for $1K?

<comment><USER26> It's a direct response to this incorrect claim: "There are Windows Laptops with good 10+ hour battery life (e.g. Thinkpads). But they aren't a "little more" they're $1K+"

They aren't $1k+. They're literally a little more than the $400 Chromebook.

<comment><USER28> You can buy a perfectly usable Chromebook for $170.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B019G7VPTC/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B019G7VPTC/)

<comment><USER26> With a low resolution 720p screen and only 2GB of RAM and less than 10 hours of battery life. You can buy a similarly equipped Windows laptop for $199 or less, or with a more usable 4GB of RAM and 32GB of storage for 30 bucks more. Of course there are both lower end Chromebooks and Windows laptops, but they're really beside the point to what's being discussed.

<comment><USER29> Windows is much slower on such a low spec device than ChromeOS. And if you install anything on your Windows device, god help your loading times.

<comment><USER30> Even low end devices are shipping with SSDs now. The last time Windows 10 was slow for me it was either because it was still on a 5400RPM drive (brand new $900AUD PC from a retailer...) or because Intel had tricked a whole lot of ODMs into thinking the Z series Atoms were desktop processors rather than for mid-range smartphones.

<comment><USER26> In fairness, the low-end $200 laptops have emmc storage, which isn't what consumers think of as SSD. Yes it is solid state and faster than a hard drive. But it's not typical SSD performance like you get on the $400+ laptops.

<comment><USER30> True - and it's really hard to judge eMMC performance because of high variability between models/brands.

<comment><USER26> eMMC 5.1 (introduced in Jan 2015) has read speeds up to 250 MB/s and write speeds up to 125 MB/s. They're _much_ faster than the earlier eMMC chips, as well as laptop hard drives. Sadly, the early slow chips kind of gave them a bad reputation. They're perfectly workable now for a low-end machine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I am actually sad how schools are going to locked down, consumption based hardware. How many people here got their start in computers by messing with school computers to make them do new things? Now, the computer is just a "magic" locked black box to do homework on.

<comment><USER32> Nothing makes teenagers want to do something so badly as being told they can't. Attempting to bypass school computer security was one of my earliest forays into understanding computers.

<comment><USER24> _Nothing makes teenagers want to do something so badly as being told they can 't._

Not only teenagers. I was 7 or 8 (~1990) when my dad told me not to use our home PC without his supervision and under no circumstances should I start Norton Commander. The next day when he was at work, I booted the PC, started Norton Commander (I observed that he typed 'nc'), and tried every possible function that I could find ;).

<comment><USER33> same. we had a lot of content restrictions on my home network growing up, so i learned about tor and isolinux to get past them. tor was actually overkill in this case, but it was still fun.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I have 2 iPads that I inherited. They are used 99% for watching videos. Expensive portable streaming TVs. My daughter practices typing and coding on her Chromebook. Paid $180 >2 years ago and it works perfectly.

<comment><USER35> Have you installed crouton? Check it out if not. Allows you to run a linux distro on a browser tab. Super useful.

<comment><USER36> It also defeats the very purpose of a Chromebook, which is practically bulletproof, worry-free security.

If you really need a full-fledged Unix system (as I do), IMO it's best to run that on dedicated hardware and SSH in from a secure Chromebook. But I'm not sure what a student like the parent's daughter would gain from putting their Chromebook into developer mode, aside from a newfound susceptibility to malware.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Apple had an amazing product for schools and was dominating one-to-one laptop programs with their highly-repairable white plastic macbooks. And then they discontinued them to push iPads and the far-pricier macbook pros. Apple willingly jettisoned the school market to focus on consumers

<comment><USER38> Well, that was what we saw from outside. I'm partial to the notion that they actually believed they were going to have a broader appeal with iPads.

However, as a parent and as a long-time Apple user, I think they are completely incompetent at multi-user scenarios in general - Classroom 2.0 is "cute" but impractical in the few times I tried to help teachers to use it, iPad multi-user is nowhere to be seen in practice, and the price points are completely outrageous (my kids' school uses iPads).

To add insult to injury, parental control is also MIA (tangent, I know, but relevant in the overall picture).

Chromebooks walk all over that - they're cheaper, have pretty decent unified management (not really business-grade, but straightforward and effective enough for K12, for instance), and they have real keyboards.

Things start flaking out a bit upmarket (when you're in college, a Chromebook and Google services might not be the best computer/environment to use depending on your major, for a lot of reasons), but in general, and from what I picked up during a deep dive into the education segment a couple of months ago, I'm not surprised they're popular.

What I _am_ surprised (and then again, not much, really) is that Google and their hardware partners don't seem to tackle European markets in earnest. I had to buy a Chromebook in the US for my own use, and if I were to replace it today I would probably have to have something shipped from the US again - <USER2> are nowhere to be found in retail in my neck of the woods, and European online retailers only seem to stock a few outdated models.

So I guess the scenario the article describes is going to remain US-only for a long while.

<comment><USER24> _they are nowhere to be found in retail in my neck of the woods_

For a brief timeframe, our local Saturn in Germany had quite some models. But now they seem to have all but disappeared. They used to sell them on the German Google Store as well, but now they are not offer there either.

I have only been in Germany a couple of years, but there seems to be a quite strong anti-cloud/Google sentiment. (For good reasons.)

<comment><USER38> Well, I'm in Portugal. I've actually just bought some accessories off Amazon DE and they do stock a few Acer models, but they're not the newest fare (and I couldn't use one with a German keyboard).

Localisation and market size are factors, obviously...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> open-source-ux This is an unpopular opinion here, but I'll voice it anyway. There are serious privacy implications of using Chromebooks, particularly in schools where young students may not understand the degree and extent of online tracking going on in ChromeOS.

Since you cannot use a Chromebook fully without signing in, everything you do in the operating system is tracked and recorded by Google and tied to your identity. Why is this even considered remotely acceptable?

The amount of data that Google captures about students must simply be staggering.

It's simply not enough to say that the data is "anonymised" (a meaningless term when you have so much data about a user's online habits), or only viewed in aggregated form. This still means the data can be interrogated and mined for information in ways we can't begin to imagine.

It remains baffling why the tech industry is so silent on this important subject.

<comment><USER39> Isn't this the same with Apple and iOS? To download any app, you need an Apple ID which requires your name and address.

<comment><USER40> _Someone_ needs an Apple ID. It doesn't necessarily have to be the student. In fact, most educational deployments probably have the device locked down to keep students from downloading apps.

Even then -- creating an Apple ID is quite a different matter from (potential) ongoing tracking of a user's online activity.

<comment><USER41> You could say the same for Chromebooks. It does not need to be the ID from student, the school can create a throwaway account and give the password for the student.

If the problem is privacy, the only acceptable option would be a Linux distro properly optimized for school kids. The problem is, it needs to have a nice dashboard for administration since Chromebooks are popular in schools thanks to the ease of administration (most schools can't afford to maintain seasoned SysOps). AFAIK, nobody is working in this kind of product right now, so Linux distros are not the answer either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I had two chromebooks and I loved them. I could get done everything I need on daily basis except for printing. Printing is a bitch on chromebooks. I tried all Google cloud print, wifi print and all other things but printing was inconvenient so when my business picked up and I had to print shipping labels and packing slips I went ahead and purchased a Surface Book. Now the business grew and we have a separate warehouse with a windows pc there for printing purposes im stuck with this 1400 dollar Surface book, its great hardware but I hate Microsoft Software, honestly, I just dont think Microsoft is good with software. Other than their office suite everything else MS makes is subprime at best. I had to use the media player than comes preinstalled on windows 10 yesterday and once again I told mysel, MS software sucks. I cant wait for Google to work out the bugs in Android apps running on Chromebooks. Hoping to switch back to chromebook soon.

<comment> forgot-my-pw Printing's gone better nowadays. My Chromebook is able to recognize the network printer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Chromebooks plus google classroom are all I see in my kids elementary school. Reminds me of the early days of Apple. Kind of funny that you can get a $200 chromebook and it has a touch screen. My $2,500 macbook pro only has a touchbar.

<comment><USER44> Why would you want a touch screen on your Macbook? Touching the display will leave grease stains on the glossy display, you will move the angle of the display, and you have to raise and extend your whole arm instead of just moving your hand. It doesn't make sense to have a touch screen on a Macbook because the form factor is totally different from tablets.

<comment><USER45> People don't seem to have a problem touching the screen on their phone why is touching a laptop screen any different? I suggest you try out a touchscreen laptop for an extended period if you haven't already.

<comment><USER46> Phone screens are different. Because Steve told us to touch them. Praise Him; RIP.

<comment><USER47> Steve also told us no one wanted 5-inch(!) "Hummer" phones. To test our faith, he also said 7-inch tablets were _too small_ and would require users to file down their fingers to use them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> What I've heard from a school library: they have iPads and Chromebooks, and the kids all want the Chromebooks because keyboard. Now consider that the iPads cost twice as much.

<comment><USER49> I observed a similar pattern in my kids, who gave the impression that using laptops make someone look smarter or more capable (less limited) than someone who uses tablets or iPads. In other words, someone "graduates" from using tablets to using laptops.

I had thought that the convenient form factor of lighter, less frills tablets would make them continually more appealing to kids or less technical adults regardless of where the device is used. But that does not seem to be the preferred case in a school setting, especially as a student gets older. I think it reflects a desire to be taken more seriously, and the appearance of the tools being used matters a lot, even if the same type or quality of work could be done using a Chromebook or iPad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I wouldn't be surprised to hear this is also the case for small businesses (excluding software devs).

We provision all new employees at our small manufacturing company with Chromebooks.

</comment><comment><USER51> So, some of this is about mode, input. But, a big factor in Chromebook adoption in schools has to do with the ease of enterprise deployment and management. Apple is far behind the curve here, and the amount of work to manage a school/class deployment (esp in the early days) was huge.

</comment><comment><USER52> I work in a school where we have a bunch of iPads that get passed around from classroom to classroom. They are terrible. I wish they'd purchased Chromebooks instead but iPads are more impressive on a list of school features.

</comment><comment><USER53> It should be noted this is an US phenomenon.

Here in Europe Windows still reigns supreme.

I am yet to see any Chromebook on sale besides a few discounters trying to get rid of them. Some of which already returned by customers, being sold with heavy discounts.

<comment><USER54> The article mentions poor wifi infrastructure, but I'm surprised (or not? This is TechCrunch?) they didn't mention privacy. At parent-teacher meetings, reps from my local school board have said that they can't use google apps because of privacy concerns, what with student data being stored on servers in the US.

Is google addressing this? I'd love to see chromebooks used here but the privacy issue is real and if kids' personal or school data is being harvested on a US server, it's tough to advocate for them.

<comment><USER55> Schools in UK seem to have pretty good WiFi, the ones I work at have Cisco WLCs.

[https://support.google.com/googlecloud/answer/6056694?hl=en](https://support.google.com/googlecloud/answer/6056694?hl=en) for EU compliance stuff, they have all the answers you'd expect

<comment><USER56> We have Cisco WLCs too … from 2009.

<comment><USER55> They still seem to work great, cheaper things available now at the same level though

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> The really scary part, to me, is the way a Google account is now effectively mandatory for a large section of US children. Sure, it's a "school account", but that doesn't stop them from being data mined or advertised to. I do not think such practises should be normalised at an early age, or sanctioned in an official capacity.

<comment><USER58> > that doesn't stop them from being data mined or advertised to

you are misinformed. as per Google's G Suite for Education FAQs:

> For all EDU domains, ads are turned off in G Suite for Education services > and K–12 G Suite for Education users don't see ads when they use Google > Search and are signed in to their G Suite for Education accounts.

and

> G Suite for Education services don't collect or use student data for > advertising purposes or to create ad profiles.

and

> Like many email providers, we do scanning in Gmail to keep our customers > secure and to improve their product experience. In Gmail for G Suite for > Education, this includes virus and spam protection, spell check, relevant > search results and features like Priority Inbox and auto-detection of > calendar events. Scanning to provide product features is done on all > incoming emails and is 100% automated. We do NOT scan G Suite for Education > emails for advertising purposes.

via [https://support.google.com/a/answer/139019?hl=en](https://support.google.com/a/answer/139019?hl=en)

edited to include URL.

<comment><USER59> [https://www.eff.org/press/releases/google-deceptively- tracks...](https://www.eff.org/press/releases/google-deceptively-tracks- students-internet-browsing-eff-says-complaint-federal-trade)

<comment><USER60> I'm a big fan of the EFF, but for every good thing they do they seem to follow it up with some baseless paranoia. Nowhere in that article do they actually back up their claim that google "data-mines" student's browsing history.

Chrome sync is enabled by default, which sends browsing history through google servers. Google says they don't use that data for advertising purposes. The EFF's position here seems to be that it is literally impossible for the data to exist on Google's servers without it being used for advertising purposes.

<comment><USER57> data mined != data mined "for advertising purposes". Google is always very careful to specify the latter when issuing its suspiciously specific denials. The EFF, in turn, specifically calls them out on this:

[https://www.eff.org/issues/student-privacy/faq#faq-What- data...](https://www.eff.org/issues/student-privacy/faq#faq-What-data-does- Google-collect-about-students)?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> "I think the iPad is still the best device, especially if you want to do real work ... While the Google apps are very powerful, you're limited in what you can do in a web browser."

Every platform has limitations. Windows and Mac seem to have the least. But does "real work" just mean whatever device you like best?

<comment><USER19> > But does "real work" just mean whatever device you like best?

I would say it's whatever device allows you to perform your job functions in the way that best suits your lifestyle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> My kids' school system starts students on Google Docs in 3rd grade (running on OS X/macOS), and almost all of the other classes that require special applications use browser-based apps. We got my daughter a $300 Acer Chromebook when she reached 8th grade and one of the best things about it is I almost never have to provide technical support.

The exception is setting up printing -- Google Cloud Print, printer companies, and wifi router manufacturers leave a lot to be desired when it comes to setting up wireless printing.

<comment><USER63> Epson and HP now have direct access on ChromeOS for certain printers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Back in the 80's we had computer labs full of Apple II's, which were used for educational (for the most part) games like Number Munchers, Carmen San Diego, and Oregon Trail. Then maybe some Print Shop, teaching typing, and using the computers to write reports for other classes.

They did the job perfectly well - why aren't today's computers being used for the same things? You don't even need books. Class, take out your device and open Wikipedia to the article on volcanoes...

<comment><USER55> What makes you think they're not?

Also audio and video editing, art, a lot of researching topics to write essays, working together building models in minecraft to learn about volcanos. And I consider the school all that happens in to be not that advanced in their usage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> I got an Asus flip recently and to be honest, it is a delight. Cheap enough, Crouton, fast enough and just a nice thing. Battery life is now the biggest issue on any device, at least for me, and the only device that solves that is the openpandora (and pyra as well hopefully) so they are my main travel devices, but the Flip when I have the space and after that the x220 for normal days. Which brings me to; X220 is old but long battery life (15-17 hours with the 9 cell & ubuntu with i3) and I can bring a spare battery and besides gaming it is fast for most things I do besides neural nets, but that's all cloud anyway for me. What is more worrying is that they (I have got many of them from a company throwing them away) behave far better than my 2015 macbook pro; overall faster, overall better battery, overall less slowdowns (the coloured wheel of horror on mac).

</comment><comment><USER66> Who here is old enough to remember Larry Ellison's Network Computer? Chromebook is the realization of Larry Ellison's vision.

Back in the mid 90's Larry Ellison said, "we need computers that do less, not more". He was widely ridiculed at that time. Now we know he was right.

<comment><USER67> I don't think it's given that he's right or wrong. Apple has chosen a very different path (powerful devices with local apps) and they're also extremely successful.

The real lesson, I think, is that most people don't want to _manage_ devices. They don't want to deal with backups, they don't want to manage disks, filesystems and drivers, and if you can take all of that away they'll be happy to store all their documents in your cloud.

<comment><USER68> For home and personal devices, Apple's approach is fine. But for business and education, central management is essential.

<comment><USER69> >But for business and education, central management is essential.

For business, it depends.

I think my company is fairly typical in that we offer fully managed systems but don't require that people go that route. (But you're more or less on your own for support if you choose to self-manage.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> We looked at using Chromebooks (or really just browser based OSs) several years ago (7+) but couldn't do it because of one fact; the network infrastructure just wasn't good enough. However, next year we are going with Chromebooks and I'm not worried about the network at all. In the last several years our Internet access speed has increased 10 fold and we have a nice WiFi mesh that reaches every part of the campus. In the coming months|years we are going to be moving to Google Fiber and that will remove another road-block. Google is hitting all the right buttons and is where Apple once stood.

</comment><comment><USER71> I'm also interested but a bit worried of the hardware support of different operating systems. Do you have any model to suggest that won't complain if I wipe its OS to install Debian? Last time I checked compatibility varied from model to model: no wireless here, slow graphics there or no audio etc. I already have a netbook that gives me huge battery life and a i5 laptop which is fast enough for everything, but whose battery life stinks badly. A chromebook would be the right in between, but what about debianizing it?

</comment><comment><USER72> One thing that surprises/concerns me about chromebooks is the lack of ethernet ports. Surely something so internet reliant can't be expected to use wifi only.

<comment><USER73> USB-to-Ethernet adapters work — at least, ones with Linux kernel support. All you risk is ending up with the same twisty-little-maze-of-dongles-all- different as with Apple laptops. Disclaimer: I used to work on ChromeOS. Semi- claimer: we had Linksys ethernet adapters IIRC, but I'm sure many others work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> As the article itself points out more than once, the situation described in the title is strictly related to the US.

I have studied at several educational institutions in Europe, Indonesia and Australia, and I never had anything else than a Windows device (either laptop or desktop PC) (except in cases where the arrangement was BYOD).

EDIT: spelling

</comment><comment><USER75> I suspect Apple will release a low cost (iPad priced) ARM based MacBook soon. iPad sales just aren't good enough for it to continue being Apple's only mass market 'future of computing' device. There is clearly a big market for good low cost computers.

</comment><comment><USER76> An opinion I hear often expressed on HN is that JavaScript is a horrible abomination, and native apps are fundamentally superior.

Could one of those folks explain why they think Chromebooks are succeeding so well, if the apps are vastly inferior?

<comment><USER77> Because the people making the purchasing decisions in schools are not the teachers or the pupils using the machines?

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> We need more proper Linux in schools, not ChromeOS.

</comment><comment><USER79> Is there a version of ChromeOS which is optimized for older people? Is there anything out there that can help with elderly parent IT?

<comment><USER80> This is a great question and should be an "Ask HN" feature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER81> Is there any evidence of kids with iPads getting better results than kids with Chromebooks? I do not see any mention of this metric.

<comment><USER82> To extend on that, is there any evidence that more technology provides better education results?

<comment><USER83> Even Socrates knew books are detrimental to our memorization abilities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> You're totally right, it'd be just like your iPhone being covered in grease stains because you're touching the screen with your fingers all day.

Disgusting! Germs! Monoculture!

<comment><USER44> The difference is that you passively wipe the phone screen inside your pockets or its sleeve. I have seen some very, very disgusting laptop screens.

<comment><USER84> >The difference is that you passively wipe the phone screen inside your pockets or its sleeve

This is some of the worst grasping at straws I've ever seen on HN. Just admit that you are wrong here, you're being completely ridiculous. Cleaning a laptop screen isn't a big deal, and in fact you should be regularly cleaning any Macbook Pro retina display if you care about it's longevity. Oils from the keyboard are regularly transferred to the screen every time you close your macbook, and MBP retina screens are susceptible to staining when the anti- reflective coating wears off.

<comment><USER44> > Oils from the keyboard are regularly transferred to the screen every time > you close your macbook

This is false. If the keyboard continuously touches the screen, it will get damaged eventually. If this happens to your MBP all the time, you should think about handling your MBP differently and protect the lid from outside pressure.

> and MBP retina screens are susceptible to staining when the anti-reflective > coating wears off.

So you should touch and clean it even more? Who is the ridiculous one here?

Did you even use a touch screen laptop that does not fold in a 180° angle? I did and it sucks. It really, really sucks. Your arm gets tired after 30 minutes, the display will look like grease city in typical fluorescent office light, and due to the interface changes to make buttons clickable with your fingers, you lose like 50% of your screen space.

<comment><USER85> Did you guys really have a flamewar about cleaning laptop screens?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


One Simple Trick Could Disable a City's 4G Phone Network - <AUTHOR> http://www.technologyreview.com/news/507381/one-simple-trick-could-disable-a-citys-4g-phone-network/ <comment><USER2> > High-speed LTE networks could be felled by a $650 piece of gear, says a new > study.

Oooh, ooh, I know that one! Everyone who was an AT&T customer during 2008 knows that one!

<http://www.apple.com/iphone/></comment>


Popcorn Time 4.0 - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn-desktop <comment><USER2> I'm a huge fan of swing manouche (jazz style developed during the '40s). I can't find albums in legal sources that I can instead find in Nicotine++ (a Linux version of the old Soulseek). What should I do? Accept that I won't find it?

I remember once writing to an Aussie record label asking for a copy of an old album of Brett Garsed. They told me I wouldn't find it here in Europe nor they had the means to send it to me. Should I just accept it? Once again, I could find it in Nicotine++.

I can't find many movies I like in original language in Netflix, HBO and Amazon, all services I have legal accounts for. Again, should I just accept I won't watch them knowing that I might find them in other channels?

I live in Spain, country where I pay a compensation copyright tax for every pen drive, computer, hard drive, TV set, etc, I purchase just in case I download something "illegally".

It turns out I'm lazy/I choose not to spend the required time and I accept not enjoying albums and movies I otherwise would.

Well, let me tell you I applaud Popcorn Time.

<comment><USER3> I'm going to be honest with all of you. You all are doing something that is ethically and morally wrong and statements like this are only way too human attempts to justify the actions of things you know are clearly wrong. You can't find legal sources of swing manouche just like you can't find legal sources of the Mona Lisa by Leonardo da vinci. What are you going to do? make a counterfeit copy of the Mona Lisa then buy tickets to the art museum to absolve you of all crimes?

That being said I use popcorn time and stremio and torrents regularly. The difference is, I don't justify my crimes. I'm aware of what I'm doing, I don't need to live in a universe that is a self created moral illusion. I likely will do something unethical if I could hide it and it made economic sense. I am human and, morally, I am imperfect, but unlike most of you, morally, I am aware of my imperfections and I don't try to construct logical scaffolding to lie to myself and others. I can pirate because most people pay for the things I pirate, such a model is only sustainable if most people don't do what I do. Things like popcorn time threaten to change the balance.

If you want to save the world or do better for the world, do not assume that the world is as described by our parent poster pachico. It's not intelligent to assume that people are going to use popcorn time then purchase Netflix to offset some of that guilt (still a crime btw). Assume the world is made out of people who are as pachico really is.. people who are morally grey but make up lies and illusions to comfort themselves into thinking they are justified in their crimes.

I stopped pirating games 10 years ago when my salary crossed a threshold where it wasn't worth my time anymore to pirate a game vs. the convenience to buy it from steam. The way to combat piracy is to create systems that appeal to the previous aforementioned logic.

Spotify was a step in the right direction but it eliminated much of the huge profits made by the music industry. Perhaps those profits were ludicrously too large anyway. Either way, the way forward isn't trying to justify your crimes. It's admitting that hey, we are victims of the tragedy of the commons, we use popcorn time because it's free and easy to use... to combat this situation you either need to take steps to destroy this product or come up with something way better.

<comment><USER2> For the sake of argument, I'm contemplating the idea of counterfeiting Mona Lisa, as you say. I can't see anything wrong with it if it's for my own personal pleasure and I'm not hurting anyone.

Don't forget copyright is a human construct and is far from being perfect. Also the amount of years after which art becomes public is human made and totally arbitrary. Why not 2 years? Why not 500 years? Ethics are not in the game here, I'm afraid. I'd like you to reply but please, restrain yourself from insults this time. Thanks

<comment><USER3> Ok it's not wrong from a very technical sense for the mona lisa. I obviously meant forgery, where you claim the painting is an actual mona lisa... but Who cares? That's not my point.

My point is what you're doing is wrong and you know it on some level.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Say what you will about stealing, illegality, unsavouriness.

If the film industry would collectively take their head out of their arses and provide such a simple interface and wide catalogue to the masses, they would make hundreds of billions.

I would literally pay $50 a month for an official and legal version of this.

The end users don't really care that it is not possible because "legal reasons". This app proves otherwise and I wholeheartedly approve of their mission.

EDIT: if I would pay $50 a month, why am I not buying/renting movies on iTunes or Amazon for the same amount? For the same reason Spotify or Apple Music are making a killing. Give me a flat rate and let me watch _everything_, it's hard to decide if that new movie just out is worth spending $15 on. Might be crap.

<comment><USER5> An official and legal version of this wouldn't be $50/month, it would be more like $200/month. It includes movies from every major company, and films while they are still in the cinema.

<comment><USER6> To me, $50 seems more realistic because of data caps. You simply cannot stream enough content nowadays without forking over more money to ISPs. Pricing would become a balancing act. It's an interesting thought experiment to wonder how those two giants would battle out the responsibility of bandwidth.

<comment><USER5> If you can get up-to-date movies still in the cinema, you would pay $50 just to take a family to the cinema once.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've tried many times to purchase/stream films online, cash in hand, only to be denied because of various BS reasons. This is all that needs to be said about the industry and piracy.

<comment><USER8> sometimes i CAN'T buy/watch films online because they are not available in my country.

so i would have to buy the film in physical form so i can watch it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Anyone knows what is the difference between this project and [https://getpopcorntime.is](https://getpopcorntime.is) ?

<comment><USER2> I know that at least one of those projects were spyware (not the original but one of its copies). I can't tell now which one was it.

<comment><USER10> [https://twitter.com/popcorntimetv/status/729597989581406208](https://twitter.com/popcorntimetv/status/729597989581406208)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I downloaded the 64bit Linux build and it has a strange executable called "payload". I moved it out of precautio and still launched the app, and it seems to work fine without this executable. What is this "payload"? Anyone know? A quick search didn't find anything relevant.

<comment><USER12> You're not the first one to notice something odd [0]

Added to the fact that you need a boatload of stuff to even build it [1], and you get an interesting cocktail of mass-exploitation.

0: [https://old.reddit.com/r/mealtimevideos/comments/dulvpz/subs...](https://old.reddit.com/r/mealtimevideos/comments/dulvpz/subscription_services_scott_the_woz_1425/f77pmeo/?context=3)

1: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22614247](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22614247)

This doesn't look good:

[https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/flcqsd/trojan_...](https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/flcqsd/trojan_script_located_in_popcorntime_downloaded/)

[https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/fknfnm/is_this...](https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/fknfnm/is_this_still_the_real_popcorntime_or_is_the/)

[https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/fluait/the_vpn...](https://old.reddit.com/r/PopCornTime/comments/fluait/the_vpn_integration_in_40_is_way_too_obnoxious/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Anyone actually tried this update?

 _1\. It deletes your favorites folder

2\. An obnoxious blinking icon in the main page and a label while the stream is being prepared is trying to nudge you into buying a VPN service

3\. The option to load subtitles is botched_

Here if you want the old(0.3.x) version: [https://get.popcorntime.app/repo/build/](https://get.popcorntime.app/repo/build/)

</comment><comment><USER14> Why 4.0 in title when it's actually v0.4.0?

[https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/releases...](https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/releases/tag/v0.4.0)

</comment><comment><USER15> It's rather suspicious that the macOS binaries are distributed as pkg files requiring root permissions...

Edit: the binaries inside seem OK. I assume it's to bypass the Gatekeeper lockdown when a user downloads an app file.

</comment><comment><USER16> Just in time for the coronavirus lockdown that has the major ISPs throttling torrents to nothing due to network congestion.

<comment><USER17> I am not really sure if it is the ISPs' conspiracy or that there is simply a lot more demand than supply. E.g. limited seeding a lot of leeching. Last night I wasn't able to open any of the two bittorrent catalogs that I use (PBay and rarbg).

<comment><USER16> Oh I don't think it's a conspiracy; I think it's just network congestion. Torrent traffic has been QoSed to hell for a long time (as it should be tbh), so when there's congestion it's the first thing to get dropped.

FWIW I'm getting a lot of frameskips from my video chats, so I think it's legitimately congested.

<comment><USER18> > as it should be tbh

Absolutely not. There are very legal reasons torrents are used (its great for releasing large datasets). Isps should treat all data the same.

<comment><USER16> Anyone with the "all data is the same!" mindset hasn't worked in a carrier- scale network. QoS with packet prioritization is an absolute must from an ops standpoint; otherwise your DNS queries would be prioritized at the same rate as someone streaming Netflix. Drop Netflix packets and the video quality degrades a little; drop DNS packets and you effectively have a total outage and customers are burning up your phone lines. DNS and SYN/ACK are probably the highest priority, but there are other tiers for things like VoIP, online games, etc. that have good reasons to go above "bulk" traffic.

It's more about latency sensitivity than anything; but with asymmetric connections (which many ISPs, particularly cable, are forced into for very good technical reasons) Torrents in particular can have a disproportionate impact on available upstream bandwidth. For that reason, most ISPs will crush Torrent downstream to limit upstream data rates (which they can't QoS as easily). I can't say it's the wrong call; and it has nothing to do with the legality of whatever people are downloading.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> What did they change?

<comment><USER20> They likely have a release notes...

<comment><USER21> Changelog hasn't been updated in 3 years. :/

[https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/blob/v0....](https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/blob/v0.4.0/CHANGELOG.md)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> CHANGELOG.md's last entry is

0.3.10 Beta - Popcorn Is Love - 31 October 2016

No info anywhere. Did it actually change?

<comment><USER23> Quite a bit: [https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/compare/...](https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop/compare/v0.3.9-flatpak0-a...v0.4.0)

No write-up I can find though.

</comment></comment><comment> globular-toast What effect is this going to have on torrent swarms? It seems to me that if everyone downloaded blocks in order it would defeat the purpose of bittorrent and mean the beginning would be seeded much better than the end.

</comment><comment><USER24> When I download it, it's blocked by Windows Defender. Does anyone know why?

<comment><USER25> Windows blocks it because the app is not digitally signed with a Code Signing Certificate ($200+/year). You can still install it if you press in the "Show more" button and then "Run anyway".

<comment><USER26> The problem likely isn't the money, but rather it would paint a big red target on their back with a legal entity to sue. And it wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft would easily revoke a certificate, even without any legal judgment.

That's the problem with code signing. It's just an attempt to graft the status quo monkeysphere onto the digital realm - you "know" the author of the code, so therefore you trust it completely, because you can sue them post-hoc if they harm you. This doesn't scale to the digital world, but that hasn't stopped these unimaginative power-hungry companies from trying to force us into it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Torrents are terrible for streaming unless you get invited to a private tracker, and then you end up having to share a bunch too making yourself a bigger target.

</comment><comment><USER28> The timing is juste perfect

</comment><comment><USER17> Or ghettoflix as we call it :D

Is this the same repo that is in Archlinux AUR?

<comment><USER29> Yes: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604114](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22604114)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Wow, you need npm, bower, yarn, and gulp to build and run this thing. Pretty cool, though...

<comment><USER31> Or you can just download the appropriate binary for your system.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> If it's not on Netflix or any streaming provider, I have no choice but to pirate it. Plain and simple. Most media content is still outside the main providers.

<comment><USER33> Pro-tip: You can now digitally rent basically every movie from Youtube or Amazon.

Services like [https://www.justwatch.com/](https://www.justwatch.com/) make it easy to not break the law. I used to use Popcorn time all the time, but honestly it kinda feels good to not steal /shrug

<comment><USER34> I don't have an ethical problem with illegally pirating content either, but it does grind my gears when people make that kind argument. Nothing is forcing anyone to illegally download Westworld. Digital content isn't essential for your well-being, so I find always find it very odd when people try to justify stealing it.

<comment><USER35> > Digital content isn't essential for your well-being

It is essential for one's erudition, which historically has been considered important for an informed citizenry that knows the good and the beautiful.

Take the mid-20th century canon of films, works by directors like Ozu, Kurosawa, Godard, Truffaut, Antonioni, etc. These are recognized as classics of film art and part of our general cultural heritage now. However, due to changes in legislation in the years since they were made, they are still under copyright, and so a person would have to spend thousands of dollars to legally obtain a cultural education that, in this day and age, ought to be available to anyone regardless of their means. A person pirating such films is not necessarily doing it for daft entertainment (because often these classics are not particularly fun and entertaining), but simply to learn and be familiar with the canon.

And before you say that one can turn to the library instead of torrenting: many countries around the world never had well-stocked libraries to begin with. In fact, in some of these same countries it can be less than straightforward to purchase the content even if one has the money to spend.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Best news of 2020. Literally.

</comment><comment><USER37> Serious question about torrents: How is this not stealing? I'm not trying to be judgemental. I certainly don't have any room to do so as I used Napster and the likes back in the day. Now with the advent of Amazon Prime, Hulu, Netflix, etc, I'm genuinely curious to know the moral argument for using services and platforms that utilize torrents to distribute media other creators are actually trying to sell?

Edit: Apparently this question has upset a good number of people. It was a genuine inquiry. It would have been nice to see your thoughts in written form instead of the downvotes.

To those that did answer--thanks! Really incredible how complicated the licensing arrangements are across the world.

<comment><USER38> We were fine for a while. Netflix killed film/series piracy for me - for a while it literally made no sense.

Then, every copyright owner realized they want a slice of the streaming cake - (HBO, Disney+, all the cable networks...) and started making their content exclusive on their platforms. Now, instead of a single Netflix (or anyone else, really) subscription I would have to pay for a dozen, that I would rarely use for more than one series/film. Or I can't even get it at all, because it's not available in my country. Or only available with subtitles in a language I don't understand. Or I can't watch it on the hardware I want to.

The music industry got their shit together and even the most copyright- paranoid artists are on Spotify, or on Bandcamp (which is subscription-free). When the film industry does the same I'll gladly start paying them money again.

<comment><USER39> In that case, what is the maximum amount of subscription fee that you are willing to shell out before resorting to piracy?

<comment><USER40> You already know that answer is going to be different for everyone, so I don't know why you bother asking it.

A better question is when are film studios going to stop profiteering with their license fees and allow their works to be available on any platform (instead of meticulously negotiating with one platform and moving around every couple months).

<comment><USER39> The question opens up other questions exactly like you mentioned. For eg: If it was never about the price point, and more about it being available on a single platform, would you be fine with paying a very high subscription fee for a platform which holds all the catalogues?

Let me be clear, I torrent things too, but I've never really had an answer to the piracy question. I wouldnt just want to blame it on all the studios seperating out the catalogues into their own service.

<comment><USER41> I'd at least like to see what a more fair & open content market would look like. So far it's just anti-competitive, anti-consumer bullshit for TV & Movies. I haven't pirated a game after Steam got big. I haven't pirated any music after Spotify came around. Clearly the model works.

<comment><USER42> Literally Youtube. If google actually seriously got into the media business by buying up some smaller film catalogs worldwide(i'm sure AMC/criterion/some other country specific catalog collections will be easily purchasable for them as a starter), we could see streaming services go under overnight.

I think anti-trust litigation from old lawmakers is the only thing stopping them

<comment><USER43> Kind of an interesting angle. YouTube is limited in how it can compete against the film monopoly/oligopoly due to broader anti-trust concerns at Google

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I wonder to what degree piracy serves as marketing ie someone pirates the film then tells three non-pirates what a good film it was, and they pay for it.

</comment><comment><USER45> Popcorn Time or Stremio?</comment>


Sway: i3-compatible Wayland compositor – 1.0-beta.1 released - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/swaywm/sway/releases/tag/1.0-beta.1 <comment><USER2> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265793](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265793)

</comment><comment><USER3> "Experimental Nvidia support has been deprecated since its inception, and has now been removed entirely. Please use nouveau and consider future purchases from GPU vendors that support open source. Other proprietary drivers are also unsupported."

How is nouveau doing this days compared to the proprietary drivers of NVidia ?

<comment><USER4> Imagine a world where Gnome doesn't support any proprietary card drivers, where VLC can't read non open codecs, where libre office can't open doc* files...

Does that seems like a world where FOSS can be successful in ?

<comment><USER5>
        if (nvidia) {
            // thousands of lines of code
        } else {
            // thousands of lines of code
        }

I refuse to add this to my code. The nouveau driver is good enough for most people who aren't buying new cards, and if you're buying a new card you should give your money to a company that cares about FOSS.

<comment><USER6> As much as I'd love to do that, I _need_ CuDNN for my work. It's okay, though; X11 still works. I have no real reason to want Wayland.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I know this is about sway, but I feel I can't pass up this opportunity to profess my undying love for i3. The learning curve is relatively minor for such a slim powerful system I'm truly amazed. I really can't thank the original author(s) enough.

RE: Sway, I'm glad they hit this milestone, I have a friend who is using it and he claims it's almost as good, (although he hasn't found a way to do -gaps yet..).

Last time I used Wayland/Sway I couldn't get decent font rendering. Has the situation improved?

<comment><USER8> i3 really is just incredible and simple - and not at all opinionated about what other components you use (statusbar, menu, notification system, screen locker, etc).

<comment><USER9> And also its documentation is excellent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Sway is great -- for my purposes (which are mostly arranging terminal emulators) it's been indistinguishable from i3 for well over a year. Unfortunately some of the systems I use are burdened with Nvidia cards, which don't seem to work well with Wayland no matter which driver I use. (It's even worse with Gnome!) Anywhere I have AMD or Intel graphics, I use Sway very happily.

</comment><comment><USER11> Another interesting project which is similar to awesome: [http://way- cooler.org/](http://way-cooler.org/)

</comment><comment><USER12> Congrats to the sway developers on this milestone. i3 is one of the 'killer apps' of the linux ecosystem and the developers of sway are doing god's work by translating i3 for the wayland compositor.

Excited to use this soon if it lands in Debian 10 Buster.

</comment><comment><USER13> I am really looking forward to using Sway. I briefly tried the beta and it worked very nicely. However, one problem that prevents me from switching completely is that with 2x scaling, XWayland apps are scaled up from a lower DPI, resulting in very blurry rendering.

As far as I understand, this is a problem in XWayland and GNOME uses a hack to make XWayland applications render without scaling (since X11 Qt/Gtk+ applications use their own scaling). But it makes using Firefox et al. way more convenient to use.

<comment><USER14> Same for me.

Though there is a wayland version of firefox, which I plan on trying out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Am I seeing this right? Third party screen capture? Practically the only reason I'm still on i3 instead of sway is sharing my screen (as I work from home and do a few video calls a week).

edit: spelling. I am apparently terrible at leaving comments from my phone.

<comment><USER5> We implemented our half of the equation, but the other half (clients) is still poorly supported. However, you can share Xwayland windows in Chromium.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> My current setup is to run xmonad as my window manager within an otherwise normal Gnome session. Is there a way to do this with Sway, possibly with some other desktop environment if I had to?

<comment><USER5> No, this is not currently possible, but it's something we're working on. It requires buy-in from e.g. Gnome, which is hard to get. KDE is more amenable to this.

By the way, check out waymonad, it's based on the same wlroots library as sway:

[https://github.com/waymonad/waymonad](https://github.com/waymonad/waymonad)

</comment></comment><comment> red-tea I use i3 currently. I might remove the old nvidia card from my box and purge the nvidia drivers from my system. The Intel graphics will be good enough. I run Gentoo but I don't want my graphical stuff to be high maintenance. Can anyone comment on whether it's worth it to move to wayland/sway?

<comment><USER5> Whether it's worth it depends on the user. Try it, it's free!</comment></comment>


Adventures with IMAP: building for third party APIs - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/bcoe/groundhogday/blob/master/blog_post.md

<comment><USER2> Check out context.io, it solves most if not allIMAP problems when building on top of email.

Disclaimer: I'm an advisor.

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately IMAP is a pretty core part of our infrastructure. Taking a peek at context.io's pricing: we'd fall comfortably in the $30,000 a month range, and wouldn't have all of the realtime processing functionality that we need.</comment></comment>


Finding an Idea Worth Coding - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@mattmoravec/finding-an-idea-worth-coding-9518b4e195e8 <comment><USER2> There's a kernel of a good idea in this article that I want to know more about.

> I realized that my idea needs to be seriously reconfigured. I learned this > through pitching ... I wish I had realized how valuable this step would be > earlier on.

The author says they learned a series of lessons, but doesn't elaborate on them beyond some bullet points.

If you're on here Matt - please, more info!

</comment><comment><USER3> great read, I like that the author realises that he needs to get feedback as fast as possible!</comment>


Ask HN: Should board members also be investors/shareholders? - <AUTHOR> It seems that when a major investor provides cash they also put a director on the board.
Does this create a conflict of interest?
e.g. This HBR article alludes to Enron's board still buying shares at the time of Enron's demise: https://hbr.org/2002/09/what-makes-great-boards-great
Should you have board members without any investment?  Does this help with their role as an independent source of advice & direction, or does it end up with them being disassociated and uninterested?
Is it an expectation that board members, when appointed, should be provided with stock opportunities?
What's your experience been? I would like to hear the viewpoints of both founders, investors and board members. Do you have any good articles, books or reference material on this subject? <comment><USER2> Yes. It's called having skin in the game. It aligns financial incentives with other shareholders.</comment>


Ask HN: Top Searches "Burger King, Whopper, Lincoln Navigator, Samsung Galaxy" - <AUTHOR> Hi, I'm designing a dataset related to trending terms on Google. Are there other kinds of ways to acquire data on trending terms? I'm actually quite surprised and skeptical that the terms in the title are the world most popular search terms being searched for at this moment in time. <comment><USER2> I think trending in that context means 'traffic for these terms is much higher than usual' rather than 'these are the most popular search terms'.

At a guess, the most searched for terms will be dominated by perennial brand keywords like 'Facebook' and 'CNN', so rarely change.</comment>


Show HN: Interactive timeline of Covid-19 outbreak in WA - jake-low https://observablehq.com/@jake-low/covid-19-in-washington-state <comment> jake-low Hi HN. I built this over the weekend to visualize the spread of COVID-19 infections in my home state of Washington.

I was frustrated that the DOH data and SeattleTimes maps only showed the current point in time, which made it difficult to answer the question "is social distancing working?". So I scraped previous days' published tables from the Internet Archive, set up a script to scrape new data from the DOH website as soon as it's published, and built a visualization that lets you scrub back and forth along the timeline to see the extent of the outbreak.

Code is available in the page (it's an Observable notebook) and data is available on GitHub [0]. Let me know if you're interested in using the data and I'll be happy to help you get started; there are other data tables in the archived HTML pages that I haven't scraped and converted to CSV yet, but in theory they too could be extracted and visualized.

[0]: [https://github.com/jake-low/covid-19-wa-data](https://github.com/jake- low/covid-19-wa-data)</comment>


Adobe Launches "Adobe Edge" - HTML5 Animation Tool - <AUTHOR> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/?v=2 <comment><USER2> It's important to keep in mind that when push comes to shove that Adobe isn't afraid to eat their own — as someone who had a shop focused on Director and Lingo I watched then adopt Flash and really shift gears overnight even though they invested a great deal in Shockwave. I'll grant you that was a long tome ago, but they still may have the will to adopt in their DNA...

<comment><USER3> That would have been Macromedia eating its own children, not Adobe.

Speaking of eating its own children, can anyone explain why Adobe still sells Premier AND AfterEffects? Why hasn't one eaten the other? Who needs two different video editing programs?

The only explanations I've heard from Adobe apologists and marketers is that one is a blah blah blah tool, and the other is a blee blee blee tool. But users need to both blah blah blah and blee blee blee blee, and there's no reason to switch between two different programs, or that one program can't both blah blah blah and blee blee blee.

I think the real reason is that Adobe makes more money with selling two different products instead of one.

Adobe should eat more of their children.

<comment><USER4> I'm sorry, one product IS a blah blah blah tool and the other IS a blee blee blee tool. Some users do in fact need blah blah blah blah and blee blee blee blee at the same time but not everyone needs both, hence two separate products.

Yes, Adobe does make more money on two separate products but that's not necessarily the reason for doing so. I guess Adobe makes more money by not implementing Photoshop features into Dreamweaver as well.

<comment><USER2> Actually shockwave and flash did the same thing, except at the time shockwave (Director) was actually more full featured with a programming language called Lingo (this was well before actionscript).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> After seeing the demo I thought this was being done in canvas, but no, it's actually using css transforms applied to DOM elements. SVG is far more suited to this task.

Also despite it's vector look, all of the lines are in fact pngs [http://wwwimages.adobe.com/labs.adobe.com/cdn/technologies/e...](http://wwwimages.adobe.com/labs.adobe.com/cdn/technologies/edge/resources/ferriswheel/images/Ferris- Wheel2.png) . Disappointing.

<comment><USER6> Shameless plug -- I'm making a HTML5 animation tool called Radi that outputs to canvas for realtime rendering. It also supports the <video> tag, so you can seamlessly mix vector graphics and pre-rendered video.

It's available as a free beta (currently Mac-only): <http://radiapp.com>

<comment><USER5> Looks very interesting, it would be great if you could put a video of the app in action on that page. I don't have a Mac so I can't try it out myself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Here's a company doing something similar: <http://www.tumultco.com/hype/>

Seeing as how Adobe has interests in the prolongation of Flash, I'm not sure I'd trust their HTML5 app...

<comment><USER8> Adobe makes money from its Flash editing tools, so they probably do not care if Flash is replaced with HTML5 as long as their editing tools for HTML5 become the standard. In fact, Adobe may even be relieved that it looks like they may be able to drop Flash as a primary platform soon, because they obviously have difficult maintaining the plugin.

There's still an opening for Adobe to make themselves the standard HTML5 IDE (as they are the standard photography "IDE") and still reap as much money as they were making from Flash, but without the overhead of maintaining the runtime.

<comment><USER9> It'll be interesting to see how this compares to Sencha. What else is there?

<comment><USER10> Genuine question: What does Sencha (a JS UI lib) have to do with Edge (an IDE) ?

<comment><USER11> Sencha have a product called Sencha Animator: <http://www.sencha.com/products/animator/>

<comment><USER10> Thanks !

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> demo: [http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/resources/ferriswhee...](http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/resources/ferriswheel/Wheel.html)

<comment><USER13> Thank you. That was all I wanted to see on Adobe's site, but it just provided more bullet points. Why not advertise what your advertising with your advertisement?

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Anyone remember Macromedia Fireworks v1.0? For a preview version, this is a good start. Try to extrapolate to when this might be in Adobe CS and include support for Actions macro recording and seamless roundtrip Illustrator asset embedding.

I believe the power of Adobe is in the Creative Suite integration and ecosystem. This is just a standalone technology preview...

</comment><comment><USER15> "Download and install the Edge Preview"

This is so pre internet.

<comment><USER16> No, this is: [on clicking the "Download" link]

 _Please log in with your Adobe ID or create a new account to download the Adobe® Edge Preview._

WTF?

<comment><USER17> I immediately closed the window. I spent a few seconds looking for a "skip" link though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Here's one area where Adobe can really innovate in standards-compliant animation tools: Automate preloading.

Every "look at this doodad made in HTML 5!" demo I've seen betrays its technology in the loading. Bits appear here and there, images load one by one; no matter how solid the execution may be, it _feels_ brittle watching it load in, unlike a Flash app that loads first, then executes.

There's no reason Adobe can't build in a simple loading spinner that hides the DOM construction as a piece of dynamic markup loads. It would go a long way toward making the content that Edge generates feel robust.

</comment><comment><USER19> Mac download: [http://trials.adobe.com/pub/esd/labs/edge/edge_p1_install_ma...](http://trials.adobe.com/pub/esd/labs/edge/edge_p1_install_mac_080111.dmg)

</comment><comment><USER20> The demo works well on the iPhone4 <http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/resources/>

</comment><comment><USER21> cool thing is that it looks like the animation is pretty much generated from a json object (likely generated from the program). not that there's many other ways to do it, but still a nice simple implementation.

[http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/resources/ferriswhee...](http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/resources/ferriswheel/Wheel_edge.js)

<comment><USER22> Was it only in my browser the train was going faster on the inclines than on declines?

<comment><USER23> I think this is because (as samwillis pointed out) the rollercoaster is actually going backwards, so the inclines are really the declines and vice versa. Why they are running the animation backwards is another question, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Good work Adobe, it's important to prepare for the future. Sucks they couldn't make it a web app, then it could run on my iPad.

</comment><comment><USER25> CSS3 is hardware accelerated on iDevices. AFAIK, it's the only way to get smooth animations on paltry hardware like this 3G iPhone. And those demos sure look smooth here.

</comment><comment><USER26> Tim Langdell will not be pleased.

<comment><USER27> Thankfully he has crawled back under his stone since the MobiGames debacle.

Or has he resurfaced and I've missed it?

<comment><USER28> This is getting somewhat off-topic but he's back.

[http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-28-langdell- judge-...](http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-07-28-langdell-judge-made- almost-100-errors)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> That's pretty cool. I'm a programmer and have 0 clue about animation and design - but the UI makes it pretty straight format for me to create some primitive animations. (Which I can then include into my Mac app via a Webkit view).

</comment><comment><USER30> Oh dear lord no. This is a bad move.

<comment><USER31> Explain?

And if your only answer is 'ads and crappy splash screens' then think a bit more deeply before you respond. People round here'd like a little bit more insight than a simple kneejerk reaction.

<comment><USER32> I'll bite.

I think the "fear" is that once a non-web weary designer get's going with this there will be absolutely no regard for performance impact since it will render fine on what ever pimped up work station is in use.

Meanwhile on platforms with lesser hardware where the browser does not have a full hardware render pipeline the performance will likely be even worse then flash.

In fact, with the ferris wheel demo Safari eats 10% CPU time, Chrome 30%, Firefox 50% on a single core. System: OS X 10.6.8, GF 9400M.

Next thing to happen: "Disable javascript / css to save battery life on your device". :)</comment></comment></comment>


YouTube is down - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/?down=down <comment><USER2> "YouTube" is so distributed I don't think it can be "down" anywhere but briefly in a single geographic area.

</comment><comment><USER3> Been working here all day (East Coast US). Would be helpful to know where in the country it's down when posting this.

<comment><USER4> Had problems around 10AM (East Coast Canada) for about half an hour. Videos wouldn't load or the page would load halfway

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It was down for around 10 mins around 12 PM today EST

</comment><comment><USER6> All Right here (South of the Brazil)

</comment><comment><USER7> Works for me.

</comment><comment><USER8> nope</comment>


Apple's Siri learns Shanghainese as voice assistants race to cover languages - <AUTHOR> http://reuters.com/article/idUSKBN16G0H3 <comment><AUTHOR> It's interesting how manual everything is, at least near the beginning:

> At Apple, the company starts working on a new language by bringing in humans > to read passages in a range of accents and dialects, which are then > transcribed by hand so the computer has an exact representation of the > spoken text to learn from, said Alex Acero, head of the speech team at > Apple. Apple also captures a range of sounds in a variety of voices. From > there, a language model is built that tries to predict words sequences.

Then Apple deploys "dictation mode," its text-to-speech translator, in the new language, Acero said. When customers use dictation mode, Apple captures a small percentage of the audio recordings and makes them anonymous. The recordings, complete with background noise and mumbled words, are transcribed by humans, a process that helps cut the speech recognition error rate in half.</comment>


Scene stealer: The aXXo files - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/features/scene-stealer-the-axxo-files-1214699.html

<comment><USER2> Had a little smile on my face reading this line: "If you already know his name, chances are you've been doing something illegal."</comment>


The Great App Bubble  - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcompany.com/1684020/the-great-app-bubble

<comment><USER2> Right after a giant real estate bubble everyone thinks they know what bubbles are and can spot them. A bubble is defined by the existence of debt fueled poor investments in the more capital intensive higher orders of production. The consumer good industries suffer side effects of bubbles and their eventual busts but I can't think of a bubble that was created in the consumer good industry. It's just not capital intensive enough for that.

I don't see why people trying to start companies based on developing higher quality apps could ever be a bubble. If those companies don't end up serving consumers they'll go out of business which is not abnormal at all. It's part of life.

<comment><USER3> I define a bubble like this to myself: too much is invested into something compared to the revenue it will generate in the future. Now if we assume that 'developer time' is an investment from the developer, then we can discuss whether apps are a bubble or not. I don't know the answer, because I don't know the numbers. We should sum up all the revenues generated by apps and divide it by the sum of all develoment time invested into apps. If this number is very low then we may speak about some kind of bubble. If we assume that users will buy even less apps in the future, then we can speak about a bubble even more.

<comment><USER4> For me, I know it's a bubble when everyone from my neighbors, mom, coworkers, etc. start talking about investing in it or when there are "reality" shows and late night infomercials about it. That's when it's time to get out.

<comment><USER5> Yeah, I'm waiting for my family to start talking about buying gold so I can short it :-)

<comment><USER6> You mean they are not? I thought gold is the perennial "hedge against economic downturn" and non-financial specialists treat it as such.

I hear friends and family talk about gold whenever the economy is sour.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I find it interesting that he compares the value of phone apps to the value of the mobile web. There are thousands more apps than the user can process, and the majority of apps that the user downloads will be abandoned/forgotten within a few hours/days.

It sounds a lot like the internet in general, to the extent that App stores could be considered a transient analogue to a gated internet. Thousands of apps/sites all struggling to attract the attention of users.

</comment><comment><USER8> I generally agree with his arguments. But, perhaps naive, I believe games can be immune to a lot of this. Gamers always have room for one more game if it's good. There is a sizable chunk of iOS users who pretty much use it as a game platform (toucharcade.com's forums are a good testament to that).

But at the same time, I've come across many excellent, well developed, beautiful games in the app store that 3 people have downloaded. So games for sure are not a magic bullet.

<comment><USER9> Care to share the names of some of these games? Always looking for well- produced indie games. Also, how do you find them? Serendipity or scrolling endlessly?

I really only find games by word of mouth, the top listings, or keyword searching.

<comment><USER8> I recently bought an iPad so browsing the app store and downloading pretty much everything that is free has become a hobby of mine :)

My favorite is LinKing (iPhone and iPad). It's by a German game company (they have 180 employees and pump out a lot of games) so they're not quite "indie"; but the game's sole review is from me (I reviewed both the lite and pay versions), and no one has rated it. It's a well done puzzle game with a really nice interface. It's my current favorite iPad game.

Just Deliver It (iPad) is a really polished game from a Japanese developer. Great music, graphics and interface. IMO the game itself is not so great, but it may be other people's cup of tea. It's also a puzzle game. It has 13 ratings and no reviews, so I'm sure the developer is not seeing a return on investment.

Brainstory (iPhone) is surprisingly polished for such an obscure little entry tucked away in the app store. It's got great graphics. But the whole thing is just really weird, and I think that turns people off. It's a pretty standard puzzle game ala columns or dr. mario.

Ninja Block (iPhone) is a strange beast. Also from a small Japanese team. It has beautiful graphics (their artist is awesome), strange canned music, engrish galore :), and the game itself is mindlessly stupid. You have to stack blocks on top of each other as high as you can. The engrish, bad music and slightly raw feel the game has is a turn off. Some things just aren't very polished, it could have used another week of dev time. But I actually think if they could have polished it up just a tad more (and hired someone who speaks english well), they would have had a good entry in the very popular "super simple games that only shoot for a high score" that totally dominate iOS.

ESP Galuda II (iPhone) is from Cave, a very successful long time player in the shmup genre (huge in Japan). ESP Galuda II is by no means ignored (63 ratings and 27 reviews), but since it's from Cave (they are just a fantastic company), it's disappointing. iOS users, you were given caviar and you ignore it! :)

<comment><USER9> Love Ninja Block. Thanks for the recommendations!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I hope the bubble bubble is about to burst.

</comment><comment><USER10> So this man thinks that because he only uses 5 apps other people will only use 5 apps.

This reminds me to the web "bubble". The same way not every web page about cars or cats made millions to their creators, not every fart app is going to make you millionaire.

You can use the same arguments for web too: 1)web don't generate profit for their developers(using his per capita metrics). 2)web is not profitable for MS, Apple, IBM... ... But the web is very good thing with or without profit. It gives you just the profit opportunity. Is not going to give you money just by standing up waiting for the money to come.

This is only the start of a new paradigm: Using touch with your computer, and like the first "visual" apps, they look like toys compared to the serious precedent(were is Lotus 1-2-3?). Easy to look down on, some people could loose the train if they don't jump.

</comment><comment><USER11> Pick any of his arguments and you can flatten it in seconds.

I've seen the nonsense 'avg cost to develop app' metric before, put it in context, there are a huge number of apps that use the same code with different data.

Also claiming that apple doesn't value the actual apps is ludicrous given their app specific advertising campaigns of 'There's an app for that'.

<comment><USER12> there are also a huge number of free apps that simply should not be counted, and that would push the average return-on-app much higher.

<comment><USER13> Indeed 36K seems a little high for all the cheap free apps on the market.

As for using the mobile browser instead of the app. I'm curious why people aren't just making apps that load up their site. They will have a universal platform for app development and get to say, "We now have an app on X that allows you to use our product."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The bubble has already burst, as evidenced by the lack of value-generating apps (run once and never touched again) and the bottom falling out on prices. Apps are either free or 99 cents, with the exception a few proprietary platforms (or protocols) that won't easily allow competition (Slingbox, etc).

</comment><comment><USER15> The only apps I have purchased for a real amounts of money are from Rock or Cydia. Most of them were $10+ and to be honest I use them everyday. Apps such MyWi 4.0, My3g, IntelliScreen, Wifi Sync, and many others get daily use from me and and I am more than happy with what I paid. Granted, AT&T and Apple aren't likely huge fans of these types of Apps, but I think that is a huge mistake on their part. Android too is hamstrung by Verizon with what they are allowed to give developers access to on their phones. If these restrictions weren't in place I really believe that there would be so many more unique and USEFUL Apps than there are now. The really useful (jailbroken) Apps go beyond porting websites to cocoa.

</comment><comment><USER16> The subject has already much discussed on HN. I don't see how making the association with the bubble sheds new light to the App phenomena. I doubt the comparison even applies, or if it applies you could put the label "bubble" to anything trendy (and many that is what is going on... the bubble of using the word "bubble"). Apps can only be traded one way, you can't sell them back to someone else.

At least the target market for the iPhone apps is growing and a stepping stone to the iPad or any other device to come that will adopt IOS.

The author doesn't use many apps on your phone. I can bet he is not using many apps on his PC either. There are tons of things people buy or offer that remain never used.

</comment><comment><USER17> There is one app which is worth of hundred euros to me: a local public transportation app (ReittiGPS in Finland). 3 euros for an app which I use almost daily and which has saved me hours is pretty low.

On other hand I have dozens of little apps which I use very seldomly. But I guess I will be wasting money for those apps, since one or two of them has been pretty useful to me (and games of course).

And I still use much more money for beer than apps :)

</comment><comment><USER18> Another example of lying with statistics. The author takes the number of apps / revenue to paint an unrealistic average. What's really going on is a few apps are making millions, and the rest almost nothing.

Per

</comment><comment><USER19> Where did they come up with $35k to develop an app?? That's craziness. Where do I find people willing to pay me that much?

<comment><USER20> In new york city - contract through a digital agency.

Every rich company wants an iphone app and they have no idea why, but $35K is a drop in the bucket for them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> "What's needed are apps tied to real business models that have real ROI. And,companies should build apps with their eyes open about what they should realistically expect to accomplish with what they develop. Having an app for an app's sake is not enough."

That pretty much summarizes the entire story

</comment><comment><USER22> In the terms of the classic trinity - Innovators, Imitators, Idiots, the term bubble could be defined as a rush of third ones. Blogs, SEO, and community- created-content sites already in that stage.

</comment><comment><USER23> Honestly I think that the first comment made more sense than the article itself.</comment>


News from The Pirate Bay Press Conference - <AUTHOR> http://torrentfreak.com/news-from-the-pirate-bay-press-conference-090215/ <comment><USER2> When I was 15, I used to think the Pirate Bay guys were heroes. Not anymore.

Encouraging piracy and then acting like you're martyrs is not the best way to combat RIAA/MPAA. I really appreciate services like Jamendo, which might not be as effective as straight out theft TPB-style but are actual vehicles which "free" the information that, presumably, wants to be free.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I download torrents from TPB. I know it's wrong, but they don't air _Lost_ , _Scrubs_ , _South Park_ or any of my favorite shows in India so I have no choice. If they'd air it on TV, I'd be more than happy to pay my DTH provider an extra amount to get those channels. Heck, I'd even purchase episodes from an online retailer if only it didn't have that nasty DRM. (BTW, does anyone know if the iTunes store works in India now?)

<comment><AUTHOR> Someone has to take and defend the most extreme points of view. I don't agree with most of the viewpoints of (the real) rms, but I'm glad he is out there fighting the good fight.

<comment><USER2> Well, you're right. But in his fight for what he considers right, he is actually producing something of value (ie, the GNU software suite). RMS and the FSF are well regarded not only because they're fighting towards making technology more open and more accessible, but because they're producing a bunch of great software to prove that they are right. What they said was, basically, this: "You think only large corporations with multi-million research budgets can produce good software? Here, take this compiler, this OS, this text editor and all these cool utilities. We built this in our spare time.", and people went: "Hell, the guy's got a point.". TPB, on the other hand, goes: "Hey! Your business practices are flawed. We'll just steal your stuff until you give up.", and people go: "Yeah! You show them who's boss!".

People seem to love Robin Hood. I prefer John Galt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The discussion is old and tiring because this problem is like drugs. You can't solve it by fighting against the "torrent".

Pirate bay or no pirate bay, p2p filesharing is here to stay and any truly effective measures to stop it will do more harm than good. So instead of battling it, accept it and find ways to minimize the damage.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=442314></comment>


Gray Hat Python Programming for Hackers and Reverse Engineers - <AUTHOR> http://hackerarticles.com/gray-hat-python-programming-for-hackers-and-reverse-engineers/ Read and download the Gray Hat Python Programming for Hackers and Reverse Engineers book free <comment><USER2> Can't view link (no permission).</comment>


Have you ever experienced a flight delay like this ? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@msrivas/once-upon-a-time-there-was-a-spanish-airline-in-rome-b43ac6559070#.7vg8ij2ao <comment><AUTHOR> A melodramatic flight delay experience with Veuling Airlines at Rome airport.</comment>


72% of iPad users do not own an iPhone - <AUTHOR> http://www.fabcapo.com/2011/04/72-of-ipad-users-do-not-own-iphone.html

<comment><USER2> I have an iPhone and an iPad and I don't even bother to sync my music to my iPad - why would I when I always have the iPhone with me anyway, and I have Pandora on the iPad as a backup? It just eats up space I could be using for movies and other things more appropriate to the iPad.

Frankly, I also don't bother to sync my iTunes to my work laptop (which is where I spent the most time sitting around) and I notice that people at the office don't seem to any more either, they just use their phones. It's partially because it's not really any easier to listen to music on your computer any more than an iPhone or Android phone.

Feel like there's an assumption here that an iPad is a giant iPhone and I think that's as faulty as considering it a tiny laptop and evaluating it on that basis. Just not the same.

<comment><USER3> Just FYI: You are able to play music from your iPhone through iTunes without having any music on your laptop.

Just plug it in, but don't sync it (apart from the initial 1-step sync), open the iPhone in the iTunes sidebar, and you should be able to play your music right away including playlists (some authorisation might be needed). Works very well for me.

<comment><USER2> Thanks, but when I'm at work I use headphones (as I assume most folks do.) It's easiest to just plug them into my iPhone. (I do keep a power cord around for the phone.)

Has the additional side benefit that my play counts stay more accurate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Nice opportunity for Apple to use the iPad as an entry-point for customers. It worked for the iPod, which I think made a lot of people more comfortable with the idea of using Apple products; and probably prompted many people's first MacBook purchases.

<comment><USER5> I agree with this. I have a nexus one and an ipad and if apple gets multitasking correctly when I decide to change phone I'll probably go with an iPhone.

<comment><USER6> What's wrong with their current multitasking solution?

<comment><USER7> Technically I prefer Apple's approach. Android devices will always, sooner or later, reach a point that you have to manually kill off some apps.

But the app switch interface in iOS is less than desirable, it'll quickly clutter up even if you do not feel the lag, you'd wanna X everything off just so you don't have to scroll to the left 6 times to reach the app you intended for.

<comment><USER8> Speak for yourself re Android - I never have to kill off apps in my Nexus One running 2.3.

<comment><USER5> I don't kill anything either.

What I meant by my original comment is that for me it doesn't work as I'd like. It may be an issue with the apps I use or iOS's way of doing multi- tasking.

I listen to 5by5 podcasts (atomic web browser) and follow the discussions on irc (Colloquy for iPad).

I someone posts a link on the irc and I follow it when I come back to colloquy I don't get any of the messages sent while I wasn't looking...

When I use the AndChat in my Nexus One I can happily go watch a lolcat and when I get back I can read all of the I can haz messages everyone sent while I was looking at the site.

That use case is the one I consider broken in iOS, maybe Apple doesn't care about people who still use irc or maybe it's Colloquy that's broken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> That's got to be a tough number to swallow for RIM since they're making the Playbook somewhat dependent on having a BB as well.

</comment><comment><USER10> I find myself using both devices in very different ways — for example I'll listen to an audio book on my iPhone but read an eBook on my iPad. I realize that both formats are "mobile devices" but in many ways they each feel like their own category in terms of usability. I also notice that I use the iPhone for very quick tasks while I'm standing and on the go (i.e. multitasking) — while the iPad is best if you want to ignore everything else around you.

<comment><USER11> iPhone is for utilities, iPad for immersion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Scratching my head how they collected this data. The comScore MobiLens[1] site doesn't seem to be any more forthcoming than the report[2] itself.

Anecdotally I don't know anyone who owns an iPad that doesn't own an iPhone. Not saying they don't exist but it does make the report a little hard to swallow when there is no insight into their research methods.

[1] <http://comscore.com/Products_Services/Product_Index/MobiLens>

[2] [http://www.comscore.com/Press_Events/Press_Releases/2011/4/A...](http://www.comscore.com/Press_Events/Press_Releases/2011/4/Apple_iOS_Platform_Outreaches_Android_by_59_Percent_in_U.S)

<comment><USER13> Counter-anecdotally: I know a handful of people who decided that they wanted both an iPhone and an iPad in the last few months, but can only afford one, and go with the iPad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I am a long time iPhone user who just picked up an iPad 2. I still find myself consistently reaching for my phone when the iPad is just as close by. Possibly habit, but I definitely think these products are very different and don't "need" each other at all. Not something I think I "got" until having them both around and letting my brain decide between them.

<comment><USER15> I do agree that the devices are not dependent, but I disagree with the first part.

You reach for the iPhone instead of the iPad because the devices are _the same_, and the iPhone is already satisfying whatever task that you're doing.

I had an iPad for the longest time, and couldn't figure out what to do with it. I always had the iPhone with me, and so I was used to using it for all the same tasks as the iPad. Finally, I just gave it to my mom, who uses it around the house and does not own an iPhone

<comment><USER16> In a way they're very similar, but I think of the situation similarly to my main computer: an 11" laptop with a 27" display that it spends about half the time attached to. Sure, the ultimate would be something that could fit into my pocket but fold out to wall-sized... but until that's available, I'll continue to want devices of varying sizes and levels of portability.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The author seems to be assuming that all iPad owners have or will soon have a smartphone. I don't know that this is the case: my mom got my grandmother an iPad, but there's no way she needs a smartphone for anything.

<comment><USER18> Just because you don't _need_ a smartphone doesn't mean you won't get one. Come contract renewal, she'll probably get an Android phone whether she wants to or not (in the U.S., it may take another contract cycle, but here in Europe, everyone is giving out entry-level Android phones from ZTE, Sony Ericsson etc as freephones)

<comment><USER19> I believe there's a relation between handset price and advanced use. People with cheapo smartphones often don't even realize that they can send emails, browse the web, and use apps with their phone. The vast majority of Nexus S and iPhone owners use at least some of the smartphone features that their device offers.

I mention this because I think GP was talking about people using smartphones, not simply owning one. I know plenty of folks who own Nokia and LG smartphones but have never downloaded an app, visited a website on their phone, or synced their phone to a computer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I bought an iPad2 the other day, the apple shop girl seemed pretty shocked that I had never owned an apple device before and even more so that I had never used iTunes. I might have showed her my £10 phone but that might have been too much for her.

As far as putting music on the iPad, I am not sure if I will even bother. There are plenty of cheap mp3 players which don't require converting wma files and itunes hastle.</comment>