Ask HN: 21-year-old coder recent grad has no idea what to do with his life - <AUTHOR> I am 21-year-old coder who has recently graduated with the highest degree (like it matters), got a job that starts in a few weeks, and I just don't know... I am just sad. I am not sure what to do with my life. I've always wanted and always believed that I would do something special, something interesting, create my own startup or work for one that I truly believed in even if it had only 1 percent chance of making a huge impact. But instead I had to do a reality check and find a job. And this job of mine just does this software for money, nothing special, it's just business... I tried reaching out interesting companies, but I was unsuccessful, because I am terrible at socializing and blew those interviews even though I was successful at technical stuff. I have to feel lucky I got this boring job at all. And I must take this work, who else is going to pay my bills. I've been coding since probably like 12-13 years old, I've created dozens of projects but they were all unsuccessful. Realizing that you are just an average guy who will be just as everyone else, and you'll never ever create something that truly changes the world and has impact on it is fucking scary. I really enjoy implementing my own ideas into software even if I know it'll be most likely unsuccessful, I can spend hours and hours just coding, and I love it. However, I haven't had any unique (at least a little bit) ideas in months, and it's killing me. And now with starting a 40-hours a week job I'll probably be tired to think of anything new or code something for my own pleasure. I just don't know. I am not sure what I am asking here with this terrible non-sequential writing. Maybe for an advice, or maybe I just wanted it to get it off my chest. Ah, life sucks being ordinary. And it's so funny, people elsewhere have real problems, like what to eat for dinner, or how to survive a war, and I'm just sitting here, being privileged pretentious asshole with self-made problems. Omg, I am an idiot. <comment><USER2> See a shrink, that's what they're there for. I promise you the course of your life is not set in stone at 21. It is _perfectly OK_ to just bank money for a year or two while you try to figure out what you would like to to do and mess around with ideas in your spare time. You might meet your future business partner at this job you're about to take up, or any number of other interesting possibilities.

There's no need to be so hard on yourself. You don't go about dismissing other people because they haven't reached the pinnacle of success at 21, do you?

<comment><USER3> This is absolutely spot-on correct. Your life is so far from set in stone at age 21 that you won't believe how different 21 is from even age 25, just a few years down the road. The grass will always seem a bit greener elsewhere, but that's human nature, especially when you've just graduated college. When I graduated, I had a top notch degree (like it matters), but I didn't even have a good job that paid the bills easily. It was what I thought I really wanted to work in, what I thought I should be doing, so I took a huge pay cut to be a low-level researcher. I was so jealous of my friends who graduated and took a "boring job" that paid triple what mine did, who got benefits and bonuses, and did exactly what @anigbrowl said - they banked money for a few years and it set them up for so much success. They fostered their own interests on the side, paid off any debt or loans they had, got cars or houses, and saved up their money. Without fail, all of those friends found jobs they enjoyed far more (some of them through connections at that boring job they didn't like in the first place), jobs that let them have a greater impact on the world, and jobs that were more in line with their interests as they evolved through their 20s. And again without fail, none of them accurately predicted the direction their lives and passions would go from the time they were 21 until now.

I did the same thing, but without the added benefit of making any money like you're doing now. I had such a strong notion of what I wanted to do, and as I spent more time messing around with ideas in my spare time and learning more about what I wanted for myself, those notions changed so radically that I went from stem cell research to IDEs in a matter of years. The thing that helped me the most were the people around me. I was able to talk out all my thoughts and worries and anxieties. I was able to share in other people's interests and passions to see if maybe those were mine too. It made me feel like I wasn't alone, like things weren't hopeless, and like I had the potential to be extraordinary if I wanted to be. Ultimately the things that have truly begun to define my life came from utterly unexpected places, and almost entirely from the cast of friends and family around me.

Hang in there, the path gets clearer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It is a little scary to realize that your life/story may not be uniquely valued by many many people (although it's far to early to conclude that for certain). But that doesn't at all mean that you can't live a life that's valuable to _you_ and be uniquely valued by people you value too.

"There's this primary America of freeways and jet flights and TV and movie spectaculars. And people caught up in this primary America seem to go through huge portions of their lives without much consciousness of what's immediately around them. The media have convinced them that what's right around them is unimportant. And that's why they're lonely. You see it in their faces. First the little flicker of searching, and then when they look at you, you're just a kind of an object. You don't count. You're not what they're looking for. You're not on TV [haven't founded a startup/haven't built a famous app/changed the world].

But in the secondary America we've been through, of back roads, and Chinaman's ditches, and Appaloosa horses, and sweeping mountain ranges, and meditative thoughts, and kids with pinecones and bumblebees and open sky above us mile after mile after mile, all through that, what was real, what was around us dominated. And so there wasn't much feeling of loneliness." \- Pirsig, _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_

<comment><USER5> What a beautiful quote, thank you for sharing it. I recently got the book, but hadn't the time to read it yet. Your comment is a deal breaker!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I know that coding just for business can suck big time.

So, that's called life.

During life you do spend a lot of time wondering what the heck you are doing here after all. Some people say the point is not to find the meaning of life but to make your life meaningful. Others prefer to just enjoy the ride and make the most of it. Your mileage may vary and nobody knows what paths your life will want to take.

But there's one thing that makes life so vivid and that is death.

Without death you would never reach even a partial conclusion of what to do here because you just wouldn't be bothered to and you would be procrastinating instead for your whole life. Death conveniently and equally applies to everyone, and it makes you think about what really matters for you in your life.

The unescapable end of your life may seem like a long way ahead for someone who's 21 years old but when you're older it feels that was just a moment ago when you actually were 21. Years go by quicker than you think, and each year you will be thinking about it more and, most importantly, prioritizing your life accordingly.

Some people see it coming early, and make a better life of theirs after that realization. Some people hit it late, but that's all right too because _eventually you will_ not only merely know but also realize, with all the cells in your body, that you won't be here forever. For real. And why that matters is because you know you can't fool yourself anymore.

And suddenly then some things don't matter anymore and other things really start to matter. You will see for yourself at the time but I'm willing to bet a lot that your career won't be one of your key questions.

Rather, it sounds to me that what you were really worrying about was whether you will "never ever create something that truly changes the world". But that may or may not involve your career: you don't know it yet. Life unfolds in most unexpected ways: if only you go with whatever works for you, you will bump into something that _truly changes your world_.

And it is then you know what you will do with the rest of your life.

<comment><USER7> Very well thought out and expressed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> To be honest, I think you could really benefit from having a good office job. Office work can greatly improve your ability to focus and complete tasks.

Before I took an office job, I could make small projects but couldn't program beyond maybe 1000 lines of code without running into trouble. At my job, I learned to be a great programmer, an engineer and a software architect. I became focused and patient. It is often a necessary right of passage for those 'great engineers' and 'people who change the world' to work in an office. It can take years, but you can become a better engineer than you ever dreamed you could be.

Trust me on this: you might like it a lot more than you think.

<comment><USER9> Building discipline and consistency to do the tasks you don't value but need to be done are a huge skill necessary for any kind of success in any position, startup or otherwise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I know this might seem a little assinine...but...

You are 21. Give yourself a bit of time to ramp up to 'changing the world'. Its going to take time. Its going to take working those 'boring' jobs to make your bones, improve your skillset, develop what you need in order to do that truly impactful stuff.

Highest honors? Great! You know how to code. I can guarantee you though, there are a 1,001 other things that a classical comp sci degree hasn't prepared you for in the business world, while working with teams of other developers. Take the time. Enjoy the time. Learn from other's mistakes, learn from the business mistakes that happen in the companies you work for, and learn from your boss, your leads, etc. In 5-10 years...take on changing the world, with a toolbelt of useful things you have learned, and a much more realistic view of the world around you.

You are just getting started. I know the tech world makes it seem like any of us can just EXPLODE onto the scene, change the world, make millions, but in reality this career path is no more a shortcut to insane riches than any other, and the same rules apply. We have our flukes (Insane purchases from startups) but those are the exception, not the the rule.

Welcome to life, my friend, its a little rough around the edges, its not what we dreamed it would be, but it's the only one we've got.

</comment><comment><USER11> Don't take this the wrong way, but do you have a social life? Maybe go to some programming meetups? Your 40-hour week job doesn't have to define the rest of your life. You could try to expand your interests outside of programming and meet people that are not technically inclined. This is where so many startups begin. You have to engage with new people to be able to know where the problems are before you can solve them.

I've had some luck with meetups.com and going to a couple of them. For example, I recently joined a non-profit that makes/helps maintain other non- profits full stack websites. Even though the programming isn't challenging, I get enjoyment from the idea of helping others. Try to broaden your interests. You (and me) are only 21. We have our entire lives ahead of us. You know a highly marketable skill, so you don't have to worry about getting a job. You can shape your own adventure, make your own life and do stuff that makes your happy.

Beyond that, why don't you try to push yourself at work by taking on more work or by creating new work for yourself? There are hundreds of posts about jobs that are boring and how to improve them. Luckily for you, software engineers are often given a lot of freedom to experiment.

<comment><USER12> meetups.com is a great way to network.

When I lived in Brighton I got to meet O'Reilly authors and core devs of popular languages.

It's also great for building confidence (by doing talks) and getting hired.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> You're starting a job? Good, so your education is just beginning. It took about 5 years for me to feel comfortable, and really become proficient at software engineering. The job is not an end.

Years 5 through 12, I developed my skills in project management and people management. Being able to code is one thing, being able to plan out a project takes it to a whole new level. Instead of a 5-10k line of code project you are now working on 100-500k LOC projects.

In my late 30's I am now off on my own, started my own company and I am close to releasing my first product. The keys to making this happen are the extremely valuable experience I acquired by "just being an employee", also I saved about $200k before I quit "working for the man".

Getting a job is not an end, like I said it's the beginning. How much you learn from the experience is up to you. If you really want to eventually do something big focus on making every situation a learning opportunity, also don't get sucked in by the lifer's. Don't waste money on fancy cars, don't buy a house, don't get married. If you tie yourself down with debt and responsibilities you may very well find yourself working for the man until you retire.

</comment><comment><USER14> I think sooner or later it had to happen, there's a time when everyone realizes they're not so special after all and all those idiots working 9-to-5 like drones are actually people like you and me who also thought their life would be an amazing journey, but then reality came knocking and yanked the rug from under their feet. I guess it's good you realized this now instead of later.

</comment><comment><USER15> Act I: The Setup

In this the protagonist discovers he is special, exceptional. He devotes time to thinking and researching career goals and world-changing ideas. Dreaming of reification and being lauded as the (Gauss|Galois|Mozart) of his generation, the present may be bleak, but the future is glorious.

Act II: The Crisis

In this, the protagonist discovers that he is challenged for his position. Others, caught up in the race of life, don't look deeply to see his talent, and communion with the muses is precious only as long as it relates to engineering goals. He is human, suffering financial and relational setbacks, feeling the muses have deserted him and he is fully mortal after all.

Act III: The Resolution

In this, the protagonist discovers he is not alone. Others around him, few to be sure, are equally talented and working to achieve their purpose. Perhaps he's at the 99.9th percentile and realizes there are still 6 million contemporaneous peers. Einstein, Crick, and Jobs all went through this before their breakthroughs. The protagonist finds a passion, gives it his heart and soul, and achieves Movement I of his life story.

</comment><comment><USER16> Nobody expects a 21 year old to have his life figured out and nobody expects 21 year olds to change the world on day one. Do your new job, try to do well, there's tons of skills to be learned in sustained work on the same codebase every day as opposed to the presumably bursty pattern of university projects. Be humble about the fact that getting a good degree is just the beginning, nobody knows everything at 21. Just because you're working a something less than your dream job doesn't mean your dream will never come true. Work on your socialising skills and in 18 months do another round of applications. Or save up some money and go sit on a beach in Thailand for two months. Whatever, you're young. Just don't tie yourself down with car payments, mortgage, wife, kids and golf clubs until you're ready to settle.

</comment><comment><USER17> Everyone is both frenetically copying and making it up as they go along. Nobody really knows anything. Nobody really likes to admit this fully. You are a member of the worlds most delusional species, so don't worry about being an idiot while trying to live up to ridiculous aspirations, this is completely normal. All meaning is invented, don't bother searching for it but feel free to create as much of it as you like. And if you ever think that what you are doing is utterly pointless, don't worry, we might all get wiped out tomorrow by a big rock. Have fun and never follow philosophical advice given out by strangers on the internet.

</comment><comment><USER18> When I was 21, I wasn't able to accomplish anything with massive amounts of free time (probably a good bit less than 40 hours a week spent on college work). When I was 26 and looking for a new career with an infant, working > 40 hours a week at a job I disliked, I was more productive.

It's a huge adjustment, and I still find myself backsliding, but you can train yourself to dedicate that bit of time you have free to working on your own stuff. It won't happen overnight, and you have to be understanding with yourself when you're tired, but a 40 hour a week job doesn't limit what you can do.

<comment><USER19> >you can train yourself to dedicate that bit of time you have free to working on your own stuff. It won't happen overnight, and you have to be understanding with yourself when you're tired, but a 40 hour a week job doesn't limit what you can do.

I find this to be very true. When I started out in the professional world, I rarely wanted to work at all on my own professional development after work. After a year or so, I became much more comfortable with my responsibilities at work and was a much more competent employee.

I found that frustration at work fueled my motivation to rise above the 'average' developer and truly master the technology stack that I currently work in. I started identifying activities that were eating up my time and my productivity (too much web browsing, too many games, etc). I started working on SMALL projects with realistic scope. Completing these small projects motivated me even more and the momentum helped me continue the trend.

Now coding outside of work is fun again, and even though I'm not changing the world, I know it made a noticeable impact to my skills as a developer.

OP, I think a lot of us have been in a similar boat. Making the transition into the real world can be an anxious or even scary time. Don't worry, keep your head up and don't try to focus on all of the unknowns at a once.

Look at your current employment as an opportunity for personal growth. If you are confident about your technical abilities, hone your interpersonal relations instead. Use the time wisely and try to reflect on your progress as objectively as possible. Try to find someone at work that you can get along with and maybe ask for advice from time to time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Keep in mind that when you see stories about people who did something at your age that has wide public recognition (like, say, Mark Zuckerberg with Facebook), those people won the lottery. Not everybody can win the lottery, and you shouldn't set your expectations based on people who have. You have a _lot_ of time; don't rush.

Also, you say you've created dozens of projects but they were all unsuccessful. Why? What caused them to fail? You might be able to use your office job to learn skills that will help you avoid those failure modes in future projects.

(One common failure mode, which pg talks about in many of his essays, is not making something people want. Your office job should at least help you learn how to do that--even if it's making what your boss wants instead of what users want. But that still helps you get over the mental block of thinking that whatever you have coded must be important because you coded it. If you're coding for fun, it's fine to think that way; but if you're trying to make a "successful" project, then you have to face the fact that you don't get to define what success is. Don't feel bad if you have that mental block: most coders do--I certainly do. It's just something you have to learn to deal with, and that takes time.)

</comment><comment><USER21> 1) I second anigbrowl's "see a shrink" comment. Having an adviser, particularly when you are young, is very valuable.

2) Read some Stephen R Covey books. The best thing I ever took from Covey was his statement about life "To live, to love, to learn, to leave a legacy" When I question myself, I ask if I am fulfilling one of those 4 goals.

3) Stay out of debt! Debt will ruin you.

4) Don't wait for tomorrow. It never comes. (To live)

5) Mentor someone (To leave a legacy)

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER22> I'm 24 and my current job (which I started in April 2013) is the only one that I've had that that I fully enjoy. I never went to University, came out of school at 18 to find a barren job market where I couldn't get a job because I had no experience and couldn't get experience because I had no job.

I eventually managed to get a job (onsite IT support) after 9 months of unemployment and held it for 2 years, until I finally got fed up of it and decided to find a job doing web development. I found one working for a design agency and moved out of my parents' house to go work here.

Once again, this was a boring job. I eventually ended up getting fired from this job (due to unrealistic expectations of a junior developer on the employer's part) and was unemployed for 8 months.

After 8 months, I started working at my current place of work, I moved closer to work in February and really enjoy it. Best of all, I get to have an impact on people's lives for the better (education software).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that yes, while we all go through shitty patches, it's those experiences that make us who we are and what we go on to do. If you feel depressed, please go talk to someone.

Working a full work week doesn't mean you have to drop your own projects. I still work on my own projects in my own time and I'm sure many others who work the same amount of hours do too. Don't let a dry patch ruin it for you, you never know when inspiration might strike next. Ideas don't come if you force them, you just have to relax and let them come.

I'm sure I've missed a load of points, but seriously, if you want to talk my email is in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER9> This is perfectly normal.

If you're feeling a moment of "that's it", if that's what you're feeling means you can aim higher.

One of the main things not taught in school is it's not about what your degree makes of you but what you make ofyour degree.

It's important though to appreciate opportunity, be humble, work hard and work on building discipline and consistency in improving what you do.

Learning that we're not special, not because we're not unique, but because everyone's special is a valuable lesson of my 20's.

By saying things aren't right here and now yoy may be implying you are done learning and where are the results. I'd say you have quite a bit more learning and experience gathering to do beyond what the echo chamber of funded startups allows.

Again, this is perfectly normal, and attracts intelligent people to figure out this gap for themselves. This opportunity is the gift. The startup of you is the most valuable startup because it will be present in everything you do, and those things you do, become destinations you stopped off at along the way.

If I could tell myself something at 21, it would be to shut up like I did, be thankful for any opportunity, learn twice as fast to get half the respect, become four times as good to get equal respect to folks twice my age, and then become eight times as good to get ahead of where I want to be.

No one said an extraordinary life doesn't take extraordinary effort in the right ways. Being aware of what you just wrote is really important.

Feel free to get in touch if you like, I have a similar story to yours plus some things that I got lucky with.

</comment><comment><USER23> > got a job that starts in a few weeks

I don't mean to be harsh, but there are recent grads like me don't have a job yet...I did spent a few months just sitting home and think hard about what projects I want to work on. But getting a job by passing interviews has proven to be difficult for me...

> However, I haven't had any unique (at least a little bit) ideas in months, > and it's killing me.

Everyone have ideas. I have tons of start-up ideas and cool open source project ideas. I think the main problem I have is I am bad with front-end. But I am starting to implementing some of them by just writing the backend first.

But you will benefit from having a job. Trust me. I will love to have a job because there are always some problems to solve, instead of sitting by myself all day. Personally, I like making tools. So whether i work in a startup or not, there are always chances I can launch a new tool to improve the existing procedure. Writing internal tools MAY not be my main job in the future, but it can be a hobby and a way to promotion and recognition. It can even be open- sourced :).

Don't be so nervous :) I hope the best for you.

</comment><comment><USER24> You are anything but ordinary. You have a coveted credential, a coveted job, and coveted skills. You can do pretty much anything you want with a large margin for error.

What I wish I'd have been able to do at your age is learn the stuff I'm learning now. Design patterns, how to refactor. Test-driven and Behavior- driven development. But that's just me, your problems might be different and need a different approach.

If you don't have any ideas, learn more about the world. That will give you ideas about what you can do in the world. Just go with your gut. Do you feel like learning new programming techniques? Take your first paycheck and buy a bunch of books. Do you need problems to solve? Get out and meet some people. If there's one thing about 'people' that's remarkably consistent it's that they all have problems. Do you just want to have more fun? Try a local bar or save up some cash and travel.

There are tons of directions to go in the world. All you have to do to feel fulfilled is to pick one and start moving.

</comment><comment><USER25> > _Ah, life sucks being ordinary._

One day you'll cherish the day you realized you were ordinary.

Think about all the people who run, run, run, all their lives, chasing some fantastic dream of success (whatever that means), only to retire _slightly_ wealthy and die of a stroke 2 weeks later. They never got that insight, and they lost their entire lives for it.

</comment><comment><USER26> I think if you talked to a counselor that might help, the problem you express is not a-typical, you are treating life as a series of objectives and that isn't what life is about.

So stop achieving objectives and start answering questions. Pick a question, any question, and answer it. If you need a starter question ask this one "What is the difference between a life well spent, and one that is wasted?" There are a number of written works where the authors have talked about the answer. read at least six if them, do you agree with any of them? all of them? What do you disagree with? Why? Answer that question. Continue until you die.

</comment><comment><USER27> "Realizing that you are just an average guy who will be just as everyone else, and you'll never ever create something that truly changes the world and has impact on it is fucking scary." First, get that idea out of your head. Second, you seem to recognize that you are a)unhappy and b)unsure of what question exactly you are asking or need to ask. The good news is that a skilled therapist can help you with both of these things. Go to work, invest time in therapy, and when you're ready you can get back to pursuing the things that interest and excite you. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER28> You're not an idiot and everyone reaches this moment. The shock of the post- school world will fade; don't worry about it. Everyone who achieves great things experiences it too.

* Move fast and break things.[1]

To learn what you like, what suits you, what you are good at and what you aren't, the only option is to try things and fail, as much as possible. You can't read about your life in books, you can't find out from Hacker News, and you certainly can't rely on your friends or family to tell you. The only real option is try-fail-try-fail-try-fail. If you aren't failing hard, you aren't trying hard. (In both careers and relationships.) Now you can afford to take these risks, before big commitments take priority (mortgages, employees, family depending on your financial and emotional stability, etc. etc.).

The most important thing to learn is about yourself. 5-10 years from now, you'll need to make life-long decisions: Marriage, career, etc. You'll need to know yourself well enough to promise someone, at 29, that you'll still love them at 69. Knowing yourself is crucial to choosing things that will make you happy, and 90% of your life will be spent with your spouse and at work -- getting them right enables you to live up to the commitments you make to all those people (spouse, children, business partners, etc.), and can feel like more joy than any human deserves. If you don't know yourself, how can you make a promise to anyone else?

Finally, believe in yourself. No matter what you do, there always will be idiots telling you that you are doing it wrong. Smile and ignore them, feeling sorry for their limitations. Like stopped clocks, they will be correct occasionally in a literal sense (that you will fail) but wrong in every way that matters (that you are moving forward with each failure while they stand still, the managing of risk, etc.). Everyone is doubted, from Einstein to Jobs (remember that he was fired) to Lincoln to MLK to prophets to saints. You won't be any different.

Embrace the adventure! Life is what's happening now.

[1] There are many analogies. e.g., use the Agile to work out your life; Waterfall just doesn't work -- you can't possibly know enough ahead of time.

</comment><comment><USER29> _How to Do What You Love_

"Whichever route you take, expect a struggle. Finding work you love is very difficult. Most people fail. Even if you succeed, it's rare to be free to work on what you want till your thirties or forties. But if you have the destination in sight you'll be more likely to arrive at it. If you know you can love work, you're in the home stretch, and if you know what work you love, you're practically there." \- [http://paulgraham.com/love.html](http://paulgraham.com/love.html)

</comment><comment><USER30> Please, try to communicate clearly. You just put a wall of text which is really difficult to read. I'm sure you'll get more useful insights since people will be able to read your text more easy.

</comment><comment><USER5> Dude, you're 21 yo (like me), don't be so hard on yourself. Looks like a quarter life crisis; if you need a mail-pal to talk about it or brainstorm ideas, feel free to contact me. :)

</comment><comment><USER31> The very things that you think are holding you back, is an opportunity to do something, make things better.

Recommend reading Ryan Holiday's the Obstacle is The Way, good food for thought for anyone facing difficulty. Here's a podcast interview> [http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/04/26/art-of-manliness- po...](http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/04/26/art-of-manliness- podcast-65-the-obstacle-is-the-way-with-ryan-holiday/)

</comment><comment><USER32> When I was 21, I started working for my first job and during those years when I had a steady job I made sure to take a trip out of the country every year. Now fast forward years later, I am doing a start-up and I was happy that I took the time to travel when I was younger.

My 2 cents to you is to do good work at your job, but if you work for corporate don't let it define you. Take some time to travel and take up some hobbies outside of work. You never know when inspiration strikes.

</comment><comment><USER33> Since you're fairly young, you should observe your older coworkers.

Find mentors at various stages of life. Talk to them, figure out what worked for them and what didn't. And why they're there.

If you don't like what you're hearing, take a counter-strategy. At a previous job, I noticed most of my coworkers were out of shape, divorced, and unhappy. Also completely out of touch with technology.

I did the opposite and I got out after a year or so.

Hope this advice helps in some fashion.

</comment><comment><USER34> Use the shitty job as a learning exercise. You'll meet people - socialise with them. You'll see people doing stuff that could be made easier with a simple template or script or spreadsheet - create the template, set up a tiny website and SEO it with some ads. Learn the language used in offices. Save money. Plan.

It feels like it sucks but you're in a good position now.

</comment><comment><USER35> I don't mean this in a way of discrediting what you're saying, but I shared similar feelings to you & thought this article was hilarious & accurate.

[http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies- are-u...](http://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-generation-y-yuppies-are- unhappy.html)

</comment><comment><USER36> I currently work 40 hours per week (underpaid) and recently was offered a position that pays reasonably well. I still have time to have a social life, work on open source projects, etc.

Don't take your 40-hours a week job as a death sentence. Take it as a way to make ends meet while you plot your course.

</comment><comment><USER37> I'd recommend listening to this talk by Tina Seelig (head of the entrepreneurship program at Stanford):

[http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=1549](http://ecorner.stanford.edu/authorMaterialInfo.html?mid=1549)

</comment><comment><USER38> At the risk of sounding old (I'm 34): at 21 you're still scratching your arse and bumping into things.

You still have a great deal to learn and you will be learning for the rest of your life. Doing technical work at any organisation, even a 'boring' one will provide you with opportunities to learn and grow:

1) You may be a brilliant coder but you admit that you lack social ability. Do not view this as a permanent handicap but rather a skill to be developed just as you would a new programming language or methodology. Working as part of a team in a professional environment will teach you to communicate and provide opportunities to build your confidence.

2) You also admit that you have 'created dozens of projects but they were all unsuccessful'. One of the key tenents of building a "change the world" startup like the one that you hope to create some day is to build something that people want and will pay for, (see the notes from Peter Theil's CS183 for more on this: [http://blakemasters.com/peter-thiels- cs183-startup](http://blakemasters.com/peter-thiels-cs183-startup)). Working in a real company will teach you the importance of building great products which customers want to buy. It might also teach you how you might convince customers that your product is great and that they want to buy.

3) You are fortunate that you will be able to earn a professional salary at such a young age. As mentioned in previous comments, this will allow you to enjoy life but also to put some money aside. If you want the flexibility to do great things, being financially independent is a huge plus, (Jimmy Wales talk about this here: [http://www.quora.com/What-advice-would-Jimmy-Wales-give- to-t...](http://www.quora.com/What-advice-would-Jimmy-Wales-give-to-the-young- generation)).

4) You already have a qualification. With a couple of years of proven experience, some open source projects and a little money up your sleeve you will be in a great position to make your next move. That would be a great time to do some serious travelling or even temporarily migrate to another country. Nothing will improve your perspective more than seeing the world and the many ways in which its citizens live their lives.

Hold on to your passion for doing great things. Don't become encumbered by consumerism + debt. Remind yourself every day of all of the things for which you are grateful. And above all don't fear the path you're on: the road is long and there are still so many forks to come.

</comment><comment><USER39> happiness is not obtained by achievement, its acquired by consciousness and awareness. read way of the peaceful warrior by dan millman if you get a chance. stumbling upon happiness is another great book, good to know how your mind works, allows you to be aware of why you think the way you do and act accordingly. if your bad at socializing, practice, its gets easier, just like coding.

live a little, sounds like your already burnt out. pick up some hobbies, learn new things. inspiration comes from strange places.

oh, and there is no need for self deprecation. everyone's got issues... accept them, work on bettering the ones that bother you the most.

</comment><comment><USER40> It sounds like you're burned out. Possibly, from spending way too much time in front of your computer. You need to find some other interests, there is more to life than writing code.

</comment><comment><USER41> Just a few years ahead of you... I certainly haven't figured everything out, but I'd be happy to chat with you about your situation. Email in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER42> [http://youtu.be/ArKPZyfZUFs](http://youtu.be/ArKPZyfZUFs)

</comment><comment><USER43> You're special. Just like the rest of us.

The 1% club can't be inclusive, that's just how it works.

</comment><comment><USER44> How old are you? Get drunk and get laid. You'll be old one day if you're lucky.

</comment><comment><USER45> You are only 21 years old, you have all your life to become more than an average guy.

</comment><comment><USER46> Time to chop wood and carry water.

</comment><comment><USER47> is the highest degree a phd?

</comment><comment><USER48> It's nice seeing other people feel this way -- because at least I'm not alone! Although my story's different, we're in the same boat.

I graduated last month, 2nd in my class for computer science. I previously interviewed with Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Twitter -- all rejections! It was super depressing. One of my only friends at school landed a job at Twitter and his GPA was much lower than mine, he didn't work as hard, and now he gets paid 50% more than I do. Yes, 50% more, no exaggerations. Fuck me, right? haha

So what am I doing now? I started my first full-time software engineer job last Tuesday with the same Fortune 500 retailer I did internships and co-ops with in the past. I code business applications for the company, it's fun but not super interesting. I'm making good money -- not top dollar, but a fair salary (maybe a little lower than I expected for having 4 internships before graduation, but still.)

The real world is boring and no matter what work you're doing, it's probably not going to be super interesting. Think of it this way, even Google needs teams to do their boring work... I'm sure there are bored people at Google getting paid much much more than me (and you)!

Needless to say, I'm not excited about my job. I'm excited about getting paid, but work is work. I'm working with the frameworks and languages that I want and I think that's all that really matters in the end.

The last thing you need to keep in mind is that the work you're going to do, as a programmer/engineer, will most likely NOT change the world. Company's taglines like "Come Change The World With Us" \-- shit like this -- is used so you think their company is doing great things, but they really aren't doing anything great. They use these strategies to attract top talent. It's the same reason Target and Coke use the color 'Red' to sell their products via their label (red means cheap!) Honestly, if you really want to change the world, change professions... and remember, becoming rich != changing the world -- you could own a sweet startup that does nothing more than sends "Yo!" to a friend on your friends list, but this doesn't change the world.

So what can you do now that you're bored and you're fortunate enough to have a job in this economy? My suggestion is to work on something you really care about on the side. Make a project for yourself or work on an open source project that you think is helpful or "world changing". Live your life day by day and every now and then think about "how can I make my life easier" \-- and build something that does make it easier.

Transitioning from school to the real world is really weird. I've done it 4 separate times before graduation (internships and co-ops) and I've always loved work way more than school. We all have high hopes for graduation and when we don't get what we want, we can dwell on it for some time. Your best bet is to take things slow and take action on ideas when they come to you in your free time. Work on open source projects or make something for yourself. Be happy that you have a job and can pay off loans (if you have them)

Sorry this response was so long, but I hope it helps in some way :)

<comment><USER49> I think it may have just been your experience, but there are definitely tons of fulfilling and impacting jobs out there.

<comment><USER48> Every job is fulfilling and impacting on some level. One project I worked on generates $150 million in revenue for the company I work for -- essentially saving a huge portion of the business. That's fulfilling for me and that impacts a major corporation and the lives of people who work for this company. But as engineers, we finish one thing and start another. There's no time to bask in our 'glory' and honestly, no one gives two shits about who made a feature work -- all that matters is that it works.

What we think is 'impacting' and 'fulfilling' is all relative. What I'm trying to get across here is that most jobs aren't super exciting. If you're not happy in your current situation, keep looking for a job that IS exciting/fulfilling/impacting and don't complain, because you already know what you want and that's not what you currently have. Of course there are jobs that actually impact the world directly, there's just a smaller number of these jobs available. The Google Search team is a team that changes the world, but good luck joining them.

Go help with the government health care crisis if you want to change the world. Health care systems are in a terrible state for the future.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just trying to show you that the real world isn't what you've imagined throughout your college career, that's all and it's all good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Welcome to real life!

</comment><comment><USER51> Listen.

One of the best little essays on life and growing up was written, and spoken, by Laz Buhrmann. You can find the text of it here: [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich- su...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-sunscreen- column-column.html)

> _Don 't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life. > The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do > with their lives. Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still > don't._

...and this is true.

It is human nature to compare ourselves to others. That is how we measure our own progress. We don't measure it in absolute terms -- we do not tend to say, "I have four more units of happy this year than I had last year," instead we tend to say, "those other people get to take vacations all around the world, and I don't."

And so we strive to have what other people have.

This effect can be especially poisonous in environments like HN, where you see so many examples of bright, young, successful people, especially those that are more successful than you. And so you look at yourself and you think, "all I have is this uninspiring, unimportant job, and those people are making a difference, and that's what I want to do, but I don't know how."

It is a cruel unspoken truth of reality that a major part of success and difference-making is based on no small amount of luck. Sometimes -- maybe most of the time, maybe even all of the time -- making a difference, or becoming wildly successful, is a matter of simply doing the right thing when you are in the right place at the right time.

It certainly cannot be forced, despite what a few notable examples might lead you to believe.

So if you love coding, then code, and if you ever stop loving coding, then stop coding and try to find your next life ([http://www.smbc- comics.com/?id=2722#comic](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722#comic)). I have done this a few times, and it scares the piss out of me every time, and every time I love it and I would never go back and choose not to do it. I have met the most amazing people because I did something unexpected.

And if you are lucky, you will find sufficient happiness in coding and stability and you will have a comfortable life and you will find your rewards in yearly vacations, hobbies, and maybe family. Or, if you are lucky, you will look inside yourself and realize that you could never be happy enough having just all of that, and you will strike out into a more frightening and unknown future; maybe you will try your hand at your own startup, maybe you will fail, maybe you'll try again, and maybe as a result of all of that you'll never get those vacations or that family, but at least you will have tried and that will make you happy.

If you are unlucky, then you will do one when you should have done the other. Try not to do that.

But most importantly, and I want to say this with all of the conviction that I can muster:

 _Do not be in a hurry._

I can very nearly promise that if you wait until you are 25 to start something of your own, you will be just as happy with the result as you would have been at 21. The four years from 21 to 25 seems significant at 21, and utterly insignificant at 30. By the time you are 50, you'll find it funny how much pressure young people place on themselves to grow up more quickly.

Do not dismiss your own troubles, they are as important to you as finding dinner is to other people. You are, again, comparing yourself to others.

</comment><comment><USER52> Your new job will bring other opportunities, even if you think it's not something you will enjoy. Stick with it for awhile.

You can always work on interesting things in your free time.

</comment><comment><USER21> Run Forest Run!</comment>


Communication? Check - <AUTHOR> http://braythwayt.com/2013/12/01/communication-check.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Another observation that got cut from the post: "Programmers love construction checklists. We call them unit tests."

<comment><USER2> I'm not sure I understand the point of the post.

I like the idea of submittal checklists, indeed this is a part of our business that maps very literally to what our users need to do: complete a list of tasks before submitting an electronic bill.

However, equating submittal checklists to something including stand ups seems weird to me. Would you really have a checklist saying "Did stand up meeting today." and if so, why?

The point of a checklist is to put knowledge of what needs to be done for a task in the world instead of keeping it in the head (I've borrowed this idea from The Design of Everyday Things). Checklists are for complicated things, like the aircraft checklist you mention, that require every step to be checked otherwise people may die.

I'm a fan of small checklists for software development that determine when a user story is completed. In Tracker there's tasks you can add to a story that can be used as acceptance criteria, for example.

But what good is a communication checklist? Is it really a desire to have a checklist that includes items such as "had standup meeting?" And if so, why?

<comment><AUTHOR> You are describing a construction checklist. Things to be done, like run unit tests before deploying, implement feature 12345, or weld a brace plate over the bolted supports.

Construction checklists are objective and empirical.

Whereas a submittal checklist contains communication tasks. For example, "Obtain signoff on requirements changes." In a narrow sense, there's a measurable outcome: Did the customer sign? But the real purpose of such an activity is to avoid a major misunderstanding. It's about communication and synchronizing knowledge, not measuring the progress of the project towards "done-ness."

To that extent, a stand-up serves the same purpose. Not that you have a checklist saying "hold standup on Monday, December 2nd," but rather that they are different paths to the same objective.

If your checklist exists to codify things you know at the time you compose the checklist, it's a construction checklist. Unit tests are another way to accomplish the same thing.

But if the purpose of your checklist is to make sure that Alice talks to Bob about the idea that Carol wants to pitch to Dave, that's a submittal checklist.

If that still isn't making sense to you, read the book before dismissing the idea just because I'm not explaining it persuasively.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I used to work at a shop that used Gerrit[1] to manage our master branch. Pushes directly to master were rejected, and all commits had to be signed off by a developer other than the author, confirming that a) the tests passed and b) the functionality had changed as advertised.

Motivation to review started low but got quite high once developers wanted their own code merged. Motivation to merge other things without checking started high, but got low extremely quickly once the merger had to fix the tests if they merged a failure.

I sometimes wonder if it's somehow possible to get either one of those (extremely positive) trends in a "modern" github-based workflow.

1: [https://code.google.com/p/gerrit/](https://code.google.com/p/gerrit/)

<comment><AUTHOR> I work in an environment like this now, and it's fine, because we have a review culture. I don't think that technology can every impose a cultural shift by itself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Gawande is one of my favorite non-fiction authors; I've learned a ton from his books and articles. I second (and would third and fourth if I could) the recommendation for The Checklist Manifesto here.</comment>


Lecture 4: Building Product, Talking to Users, and Growing - <AUTHOR> http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec04/# <comment><USER2> I feel that this lecture generated less comments (maybe less upvotes too) than the previous lectures. I would guess that this is because we might think we are "so over all of this". I mean, we all think we already know this "get out of the building" and "talk to your customers". We think "c'mon, this is so basic, we are more sophisticated than that". And I think this is a mistake.

Underestimating this initial process, taking it for granted, we create the perfect environment to trick ourselves in not doing it. We might tell ourselves that our product is a SaaS for a very specific crown that we can only find online, and there is no street fair or postal office where we can find them. We might tell ourselves that a $100 Facebook Ads campaign is good for testing our assumptions. Or that is not necessary to get really immersed on our industry, because we already know what is wrong and how to solve.

These are all little lies that convince ourselves that our particular context is different. Sure it is. Sure you might not find your customers on the streets, but that is no excuse to not talk online to your customers, be constant presence on a forum, and arrange meetings with those who happens to be on your city.

Most of advice for startups out there are for those who already have some traction, a few employees. So people might skip the skills and attitude necessary to go from 0 to 100 users or customers. This is the perfect lecture for this crowd.

<comment><USER3> this lecture definitely has the most practical advice so far (not that the others weren't good as well).

adora also spoke at the female founders conference ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eP3-ra8nZY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eP3-ra8nZY)) and her story about her and her brother's persistence in systematically climbing the learning curve of product/market fit was one of the most memorable. you can tell that she was speaking from real, hard-earned experience for each of the lessons she related in this lecture.

and i love that she threw in a basketball reference, even though you don't usually just throw the ball around. =)

<comment><USER4> agree on the basketball reference, the analogy definitely made it easy to understand

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> 30 Quotes from the Adora Cheung's lecture here: [https://medium.com/how-to- start-a-startup/30-quotes-from-ado...](https://medium.com/how-to-start-a- startup/30-quotes-from-adora-cheung-on-building-product-talking-to-users-and- growing-99be820b6ad7)

One reason why I think this lecture probably hasn't generated as many comments/upvotes is because there may have been too many topics put into just 1 lecture. I think it may have been more effective if the content was split out into maybe 2 or 3 separate lectures that went into a bit more depth like.. -Building a product (covering the MVP, the decision process around what features are most important and what's not, etc) \- Customer Development/talking to users (the environment to interview them, types of questions to ask them, types not to ask,etc) \- Growth (different types of growth, what Homejoy focused on at each stage, potential challenges they went through etc)

I recognize that since it's a Stanford course, they are probably capped with the amount of time they have during the semester as well.

</comment><comment><USER5> Timestamped notes: [https://timelined.com/how-to-start-a- startup/lecture-4-how-t...](https://timelined.com/how-to-start-a- startup/lecture-4-how-to-start-a-startup)

</comment><comment><USER6> The interesting thing to me is that the "n00b approach" is basically what Peter Thiel, Elon Musk and friends did at Paypal.

 _1\. build product in secret

2\. exclusive press launch

3\. wait for users

4\. buy users

5\. give up_

They built the product in secret and raised money. They did a huge press launch "beaming" money from PDA to PDA. They waited for users, expecting Palm Pilots to be huge only to see they weren't. They decided to focus on eBay sellers and literally _bought_ users for $20 each. The difference is they didn't give up.

Palantir and Space X also started by building products in secret, press launches and then lengthy sales cycles to get users. Ditto for Apple's "restart" in the late 90s and early 2000s. Maybe a relentless n00b approach is the way to build more transformative products and companies.

</comment><comment><USER7> Notes: [http://jonalmeida.com/posts/2014/10/01/htsas- lec04/](http://jonalmeida.com/posts/2014/10/01/htsas-lec04/)

</comment><comment><USER8> I would love to know how many sign-ups and customer appointments did Homejoy get after this lecture, across the 5 countries it covers. Am sure the ROI on this 50 minutes lecture will give more sign-ups than any FB or google ad campaign :-). What a cunning way to grow!

</comment><comment><USER9> Adora's talk was very well done. Her use of metrics and graphs to explain various parts of a startup's life was valuable. Frankly, each type of company she discussed (B2B, consumer, etc) could be expanded into their own talks.

One point that rang true was when she said that you may hit a point where the economics of a specific business don't make sense. IME, the economics of a business often look one way before you start, but become increasingly real as you gain early experience with the business. I'm not sure if she was trying to hint that a pivot discussion needs to happen after the real economics of an idea become known, but that's what I got from this point.

</comment><comment><USER10> The reasoning behind the ad campaign is that if the ad price multiplied by conversion is below LTV, it's worth it.

This seems to be fine in a market with few other competitors, but in heavily contested categories (e.g., SaaS) shouldn't you be multiplying that by customer churn? Seems a bit presumptions to assume that once a customer signs up, they're going to spend 100% of assumed LTV with you and you only.

<comment><USER11> LTV normally incorporates churn as part of the calculation. If it didn't then unless you have a time-value-of-money discount in there, the LTV of a customer would be infinite. Perhaps you're positing that the LTV refers to the actual physical Lifetime of a customer - but, statistically, that just turns into a churnrate too (sad to say, even 100% of a consumer's lifetime is more than a 0.5% churn rate spread across the whole population).

<comment><USER10> Thanks for the clarification, makes sense.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I finally got around to watching the fourth lecture and I have to say, this has been the best of the lot so far! The preceding classes have come across to me as a collection of (humorous) soundbites. This class felt much more relatable and, as much as a lot of it could be cast as common sense, it was a fantastic synopsis of what works in reality.

Definitely going to rewatch this lecture soon!

</comment><comment><USER13> Loving these lectures so far. Anyone involved in or thinking about a startup should watch them. The recommended reading is also excellent.

MOOCs are notorious for fast drop-off in the size of their engaged audience. It will be interesting to see if the same applies to this lecture series (I realise it's not a MOOC!). Perhaps this explains the reduced number of comments.

</comment><comment><USER14> This girl seems like a cool person. I originally didn't watch this because she wasn't "famous". But personally I found this one of the more inspiring talks after watching it.</comment>


Ask HN: Moving, but want to keep my job - <AUTHOR> I'm a software engineer and I recently started a new job in February, but I have to move to a new city in August. I love my new job - compared to my last one, things are much better here and I could see myself staying for the next 3+ years if I had it my way (or more, who knows). Background: - 2 internships + 2 co-ops before graduation (~1.5 years of related experience) - Graduated magna cum laude with a bachelors in CS last year - Been working full-time since graduation (~8 months)
The company has a team that works offshore and we have some remote sales folks, but none of our engineers are "full remote". Working from the office isn't necessary and, even from the interview process, I know this company is flexible with where we work from.
So I'm reaching out to the community to see what you all think my chances of keeping my job are. I'll be moving ~10 hours drive away (1.5 hour flight), but my commute to the office would be ~1/month at most (depending on costs: rental car, hotel, flights, etc.) I want to talk to my employer ASAP, but I also don't want to be laid off between now and August in case they want to replace me.. so waiting might be better.
- Have you had an employer allow you to move and work remotely?
- If so, when did you let them know? Months in advance? Weeks in advance?
- How did you enjoy working remotely in a new location?
- How often did they need you to commute to the office and for how long was your visit?
I'm mainly trying to decide when I should let my employer know so they and I can both be prepared for what might be involved in looking for new work down the road.
Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> Maybe you should reach out to your boss, rather than us? I mean, we're mostly ok with it:-)

Perhaps you could find some good arguments for keeping your job here? [http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Office-Required-Jason-Fried- ebo...](http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Office-Required-Jason-Fried- ebook/dp/B00C0ALZ0W?tag=dedasys-20)

</comment><comment><USER3> It sounds like you're looking for advice on this nebulous idea of having your cake and eating it too. I actually did something similar last year - I had a good job but was moving out of state for other reasons. The simplest (and only) approach was to be honest with my boss. I opened a discussion of how we could make it happen.

You have to think about the company's point of view: is it worthwhile to keep you on, regardless of whatever difficulties arise? You need to make it a win- win for them.

<comment><USER4> I did this once many years ago. I had been working with the company for several years. I told them I was going to move, and would love to keep working for them. We agreed on telecommuting and it worked great.

<comment><AUTHOR> Excellent, thats great news :)

Thanks for the feedback

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Ask for a trial basis - see if you can work from home for a few weeks. Prove to your boss that you can be at least as productive, if not more.

<comment><USER6> This is huge. In my experience, I'd say the biggest hurdle to convincing management to let you work remote is the _perceived_ effect it will have on your productivity. Most of the management I've run into and worked for tend to see remote workers as too lacking in "team communication" for the team to benefit from the relationship, and there are still quite a few people out there that think remote workers are very much less productive than people who come to an actual office. If you have no remote workers at your office currently, this is probably going to be an uphill battle, unless you also work in a place where good ideas win, no matter where they come from. Then you might have a shot. But anyways, this advice is best, a trial run before you move. Good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> ^ I totally agree, I'll try and see if a 'trial basis' would work in their favor in case they're iffy about it.

Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> \- In 2008 I moved from DC to SF and kept my job.

\- I started thinking about moving in May, near the end of June I brought it up as a possibility and to see if there was any possible chance it would work for my employer. In late July we worked out the details which really amounted to not much of anything other than "work". And in early September I drove to SF and set up shop.

\- I was in SF with my future wife working on a pretty slow moving government contract. It worked for me at the time and allowed me to transition to a new city/life without the hassle/stress of finding a new job. The work was fine, but I was thrust into the center of the startup universe, so it was obvious how much was out there to learn and do.

\- I was "supposed" to commute back east quarterly, but it was never really needed, so I only did it once officially (though I was back for a few days for a funeral at one point as well).

Basically, if you are a well respected and valued contributor to the team and the team has experience with other people working remotely then I'd say your chances are pretty good. But I'd start talking to them now. You know you have to move. You know you want to keep the job. But if they are going to telly you it isn't going to work you want to know sooner rather than later so you can find a new job in your new location ASAP.

<comment><AUTHOR> This definitely makes sense and thank you for sharing your experience. From what I've noticed, most people say to talk about this early on, so I think I'm going to bring it up very soon.

As you said, the more time I give, the more time I have to look for a new job, etc.

Thanks again!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> \- Have you had an employer allow you to move and work remotely? Yes, we have remote employees from acquisitions but it was a challenge to convince my manager's manager that I could work remotely. I was surprised there was resistance in asking because my team is spread out globally so in theory we are all remote workers. When I did become remote, it was more like a trial/probation to see if it works out.

\- If so, when did you let them know? Months in advance? Weeks in advance? I started the process in Fall and told them I would be moving in Summer. My manager's manager dragged their feet on making a decision until I told my team I would be putting in my 2 weeks notice in Summer. My coworkers sent emails to their managers that it would be a huge loss for the team if I had to quit. I didn't plan on using this as leverage but it worked out.

\- How did you enjoy working remotely in a new location? I am a very social person, but I love working remotely as I get more done than in an office. The local office was an open office design so noise would force me to put headphones on. Now I can play music out loud and not be distracted by side conversations.

You need to define a space that is your office and have rules with your family, e.g. if the door is shut do not disturb me. You need set working hours too. I rarely have to sign in at night to assist with global team members.

\- How often did they need you to commute to the office and for how long was your visit? I usually visit the office twice a year or more if I am in town visiting old friends. Usually I visit when other team members are visiting the office.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great feedback, thanks so much for the incite into your experience!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've done remote like this for the last little while. I was pleasantly surprised that my employer was okay with it. Turns out, if you are competent, employers usually don't want to lose you.

Bigger question ... do you want to work like this? I work a lot more/harder than I used to. I have to remember to take breaks. There are no water cooler chats in my life any more ... no chance to grab coffee with a work colleague. I try to go to meetups but it is not the same.

Suggestions: 1) Build a sweet work office. I was working with my laptop for ages and it was tough. Buy a nice printer, external monitor setup, get unlimited Internet.

2) Make sure you have buddies in the home office who can help you if something urgent comes up. VPN/connectivity issues can happen.

There are big questions I have around growth (salary, responsibility are the big ones; technical growth is okay since I put in many hours to study up).

Working from home - if you have a spouse, they need to understand you are working. Home office is best but a separate room may not be feasible.

Don't sweat talking to your boss. I did sweat - turns out it wasn't necessary. You can propose a 3-6 month trial run.

Best of luck

<comment><AUTHOR> Great advice and thank you very much for posting. Luckily I've had the privilege of work from home since I started my career, so I've adapted a lot to not being in the office, but you're right - get a sweet office, separate space, and remind myself to take regular breaks.

Thanks again!

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I actually just did this. Started a new job in June last year, ended up moving across the country in Dec, but really liked my job and wanted to keep it and work remote full time.

Here's what I did:

1) In the months leading up to my move I worked my ass off and always volunteered to help out wherever my boss needed me most. This gave me experience on a lot of our different projects and made me less replaceable.

2) I told my employer one month before my move, and made sure they knew how much I enjoyed working for the company and how I really wanted to continue working for them remotely. However, I also made it clear that I was fully committed to moving with or without my job (in fact the following weekend I was flying out to find an apt).

It seems somewhat selfish and counter intuitive, but I believe that it's better to give less notice time than more. This creates more of a sense of urgency for your employer. A friend of mine tried the same thing but gave five months notice and was told that he couldn't work remote, but "come talk to us in five months before doing anything drastic (aka quitting)".

However, regardless of when you tell your employer, the most important thing is that you must be 100% committed to your move and willing to lose your job and start over in your new location.

To answer your other two questions: Working remotely has it's pros and cons, which I won't go into detail on, since this post is already getting rather long :) But you can find lots of info in other places about this. Overall though, it has worked out very well for both me and my employer.

So far in four months of working remote I haven't been back to the office yet (it's a four hour flight). But from what we've discussed I'll probably be back in the office for one week per year.

Best of luck to you!

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow this is great and thanks for sharing. I had the same feeling that if I let them know too early, it might not work out in my favor; however, I won't know until I try.

As for moving and sticking to it, that's definitely my plan. This move is actually out of my control, so at least when I let them know I'm moving, there's nothing that'll change my mind and I'll make sure they know that.

Thanks again, this really helped.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> You have my permission to work remotely. Thanks for asking.

In all seriousness, yes this can be done and happens all the time, even in large institutions. A friend of mine moved from Boston to CO, yet kept his Boston University job as a software developer. Just ask. Preferably your boss, not the internet.

<comment><AUTHOR> Most definitely, just looking for people's experiences, thanks for the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > If so, when did you let them know? Months in advance? Weeks in advance?

Timing is everything. Three months out is a fair time window. Meanwhile, you'll have grown more seasoned and useful to the team. And your moving plans will become more concrete. Pitch your boss the Work Remote idea as pilot project for 6 months, subject to periodic review. Start reading up on best practices for remote working. You'll want to assure him you have a game plan to make this a smooth, seamless transition. Move on Friday, plug-in on Monday situation normal.

</comment><comment><USER13> Currently working my second stint in China for my Australian company, first stint was 15 months although this one will be much shorter.

You really need to talk to your boss, you'll probably find them to be a bit more open minded than you think. If they realise they can't really stop you from going they'll likely see more value in keeping you remote than losing you entirely.

You might need to make some compromises, possibly even pay related, but there's a good chance you can meet somewhere in the middle and everyone can be happy.

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome feedback and thank you. It's nice to see this isn't as big of a deal as I was expecting :)

Always good to hear other people's experiences. Thanks again!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> And I appreciate the responses. I'm mainly looking for advice based on people's experiences -- Yes, I need to talk to my boss, but I'm trying to figure out 'when' to do this.

</comment><comment><USER14> I would talk to your boss asap about this. It will likely take some time for them to run it up the flagpole to get approval if they are on board, etc...

Good luck with the job and the move.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, I accidentally posted this wrong earlier and I've updated my post.</comment>


HTTPS is not a magic bullet for Web security - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/07/https-is-not-a-magic-bullet-for-web-security/ <comment><AUTHOR> tldr: HTTPS provides false sense of security and is difficult to implement.

<comment><USER2> I don't see why people thing HTTPS is difficult to implement. Pre Let's Encrypt it only took me a few minutes to setup an SSL cert for 9 bucks (cheaper than the domain renewal). With LE, it's now so simple, it's my default process.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks to Let's Encrypt, it is easy for someone running their own server.

But I think for regular folk running on a hosted service, who aren't comfortable with command line and who won't even have the necessary permission, they are going to be stuck with what they have, and probably have their domain held hostage, so will be forced to pay for some crappy cert if they even wanted https.</comment></comment></comment>


Bitcoin Cash Blockchain Length Passes Bitcoin - <AUTHOR> https://cash.coin.dance/blocks <comment><AUTHOR> Support for Bitcoin Cash continues to grow, currently over 42% [0] of the combined hashing power of the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash networks is dedicated to Bitcoin Cash mining.

Meanwhile the Bitcoin mempool (pending transactions) is approaching all-time highs [1] (over 90k KB of transactions -- which will take over 90 blocks to process if no additional transactions are sent, which could take several days to process at current hashrates [2].

[0] [http://fork.lol/pow/hashrate](http://fork.lol/pow/hashrate)

[1] [https://blockchain.info/charts/mempool- size](https://blockchain.info/charts/mempool-size)

[2] [https://blockchain.info/](https://blockchain.info/) \-- Blocks are being found approximately every 30 minutes, this slow pace will continue until the next Bitcoin difficulty adjustment occurs, which won't be for another 210 blocks or 1.5 days [3].

[3] [https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty](https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty)

Edit: Additional information comparing the two blocks.

</comment><comment><USER2> Sure, but they're all empty blocks

<comment><AUTHOR> You prefer the "stuffed to the gills" flavor of blocks eh?</comment></comment>


"Marriage promotion" is a destructive cargo cult - <AUTHOR> http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/4938.html <comment><USER2> This may be the sleep deprivation talking, but the wiki page for "marriage promotion" is damn near incomprehensible, the article is even worse, and furthermore the article seems to assume background on both it and some recent discussion that has apparently been taking place over it.

As far as I can divine, it is some sort of idea about giving extra welfare benefits to married people, or withholding them from single people?

Is this currently happening? Is anybody that is advocating it anybody that I should care about? Am I missing something that makes this a HN-worthy topic (if it's just general intellectual interest stuff, that's fine, but I can't tell if that is the angle here or not)?

<comment><USER3> Yeah, this is bad. Great political commentary, but god-awful HN fodder.

We pay people to have babies, so people have babies. We create a financial reward for people not to marry, so they don't marry. Film at 11. This entire discussion is just regurgitated political arguments from the 60s, and not much has changed, frankly, except the destruction of the family unit and social fabric in poor families.

This author wants to make the case that society is to blame (Gee, never saw that one coming) and that we should all strive to be more compassionate and understanding. He does so by some weird idea that marriage is a contract and that by looking at statistics the other side is confusing correlation with causality. Then he rambles into the idea that promoting marriage for stability is getting things ass-backwards. You can draw your own conclusions here looking at 2 thousand years of history.

So there's not much here except for a long apologia for programs that never worked, but it's definitely damned long-winded.

All part of a larger narrative in the states regarding income inequality and the poor, which is how the left plans to split the country, continue the divisiveness, and get their guys elected for the next few years or so.

So really just more of the same stuff you can find on any politics site. I have no idea why it's reached such prominence on HN.

<comment><USER4> _not much has changed, frankly, except the destruction of the family unit and social fabric in poor families_

Are those things _not_ big deals?

<comment> guard-of-terra Maybe (s)he expected positive changes for a change?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is an unpopularly conservative concept, but I think the mainstream view of social welfare ignores the importance of family structures in maintaining social order in poor societies. Its hard not to look around here in Wilmington and not see the gang prevalence as being connected to the power vacuum that results from crumbling family authority.

Also, I've begun to resent people who say single parenthood is just as good. Single parents shouldn't bear the social stigma they have in the past, but going as far to say that having one parent is just as good as two both ignores the empirical evidence and common sense. If I left my wife tomorrow, my daughter would have the same outcomes? Really?

<comment><USER6> What does "crumbling family authority" result from? And are you positive that is an accurately described root cause and not a symptom?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My housemate works as a marriage registrar.

I just asked him what percentage of marriages in our local area are primarily for visa exchange purposes. He said "a majority".

I think this article makes an assumption that it's normal/preferable to get married. It misses the fact that there are now very few reasons for a happy, two-earner household with children to actually get married. Marriage papers are in no way a required part of a stable and loving relationship.

People don't often get married today unless there's some real political benefit to them: inheritance is becoming less important and free movement of labour is now one of the major motivators.

<comment><USER8> Until your significant other gets injured and you try to show up at the hospital to make the decisions any married couple is allowed to make. That is _one_ of the issues you will face as an unmarried "partnership."

This is also the reason why those uppity gays are not content with the crumbs of "social unions." Non-married couples do not have the same rights as married couples.

 __of course this is US-centric __

<comment><USER9> Why can't non-married couples give each other power-of-attorney for those things? I ask this not rhetorically.

<comment><USER10> They can. It's expensive and often doesn't work when you need it most. Lots and lots of long-term gay couples can attest to the expense, complication and ineffectiveness of trying to replicate marriage through contract law and other civil deeds.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Not entirely unrelated to the discussion, it's the usual time of year where I get furious about the large financial penalty that I pay the government for being single and without child.

I want to punch any public figure in the face who thinks "promoting marriage" is a good idea because "promoting marriage" is already a cultural institution signed into law.

I've already worked out the math: If I could manage a cheap enough birth or adoption, I would save a significant amount of money by having a crotchfruit. Of course the former requires a willing co-conspirator.

I used to work with a guy who made $14/hr and his wife didn't work and they had 7 kids. For years I couldn't understand how he could possibly make ends meet until I looked at the tax credits he was getting and understood that "economies of scale" kind of works for feeding and clothing children.

Edit: Rayiner, since it won't let me reply to you on a dead topic. Married people can and do cheat on their taxes all the time. I know at least a dozen married couples where both file as single and only one claims the dependents. As for social security, the future there is looking pretty grim and the intergenerational continuity concept breaks down (and already has) when an unusually large older generations' votes and financial means allow them to skew the balance in their favor. This idea that I'm selfish because I haven't had kids yet is one that makes me angry and the linked article actually touches on many of the reasons...to the effect of: "because you were born poor and haven't been able to become successful enough to be desirable to mate with, you deserve to continue to be poor."

<comment><USER12> _Married people can and do cheat on their taxes all the time. I know at least a dozen married couples where both file as single and only one claims the dependents._

Married people are allowed to file separately, and the law is that only one can claim each dependent. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your statement, but I'm not sure how that's cheating on taxes.

 _the intergenerational continuity concept breaks down (and already has) when an unusually large older generations ' votes and financial means allow them to skew the balance in their favor._

How does that break down intergenerational continuity?

 _This idea that I 'm selfish because I haven't had kids yet_

You seem to be making this very personal. I'm not sure where you get that from the official sources. Simply put, having a younger generation is beneficial to society. It's also a strain on those families that decide to have children. As a society we subsidize them because they provide a long-term benefit.

 _I 've already worked out the math: If I could manage a cheap enough birth or adoption, I would save a significant amount of money by having a crotchfruit. Of course the former requires a willing co-conspirator._

I suspect you are _vastly_ underestimating the actual costs of children. For example, the cost of daycare (unless you want to forego one of your incomes) is ~$1000/month where I live. Additionally, the requirements for certain jobs are not longer acceptable, which limits opportunities to some degree. If you are needed to help raise children at home, working for a startup that requires long hours or a job that has you away from home for significant time most likely won't work out well for either your personal or professional life, take your pick.

<comment><USER11> "cheat" as in "eliminate marriage's tax burden" in response to the parent commenter's assertion. Single childless people get maximum tax penalties always.

Yes, in many ways it's personal but likely not for the ones you think.

As for "vastly underestimating costs of children", not at all. My brother is quite poor and has a teenaged child and I've been managing his family & business finances for well over the past decade. Yes they file separately for a significant tax savings. I know exactly what it costs and I will tell you that the costs for a middle class family and a poor family are quite different. If you are living in California, working for startups and can even _consider_ daycare then you are in a vastly different situation from where I live, where teen moms and being poor are the norm. Full-time, year-round employment is rare here. But of course, the tax penalties & benefits are the same for your filing status no matter what the actual situation is.

Over here, often it's grandma taking care of the kids and the $3000 refund check the typically-single mother gets go to drugs and tattoos.

So here I am, working my butt off, not having kids I can't take care of...and even in the years where I have 0 withholding exemptions, the government decides that they need more money from me than they've taken and there's no wiggle room or options for me to do anything about it.

I'm working class and marriage and raising kids aren't even a reasonable thing to consider. I'd love more than anything to have a family. My only solution is to find a way to earn more money.

I wish it could be properly explained to white middle-class folks that in most cases "born poor stays poor"

<comment><USER12> _If you are living in California, working for startups and can even _consider_ daycare then you are in a vastly different situation from where I live, where teen moms and being poor are the norm._

In which, depending on the state, they probably qualify for subsidized daycare.

 _Over here, often it 's grandma taking care of the kids and the $3000 refund check the typically-single mother gets go to drugs and tattoos._

If you are going to say stuff like that, make a real assertion and back it up, or leave it out. I have no idea what "often" means to you, and I have no clue the veracity of your claim.

 _I 'm working class and marriage and raising kids aren't even a reasonable thing to consider. I'd love more than anything to have a family. My only solution is to find a way to earn more money._

Didn't you earlier say it saved money?

 _I wish it could be properly explained to white middle-class folks that in most cases "born poor stays poor"_

I agree with you wholeheartedly here. _But what does that have to do with what we are talking about?_

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It is typically more efficient to share spaces like a kitchen than for each to have their own.

<comment><USER14> Carried to its logical extreme you end up with some kind of polyamorous tribe. Not that I'm complaining.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> It surprises me that such a logical author thinks that good marriages have much (if anything) to do with picking the "right person" so to speak. It seems to me that:

1) Its damn near impossible to guess at what a person will be like 10-50 years from now. On some level its a crap shoot, and marriage is about learning to love whom they become. Hopefully that plays out on both sides of the coin (each spouse continues to love whom the other becomes). 2) "Good" and "Bad" marriage mostly has to do with how people fight/interact (see stuff by John Gottman). People will always fight over money, kids, laundry duties etc, but their satisfaction in the relationship will have more to do with how they fight, than what they fight over. 3) Individuals have total control over whom they fall in love with. IIRC the cascading brain chemicals involved with love that override logic from occurring properly: [http://www.mikelee.org/the- science-of-love-chemicals-and-rom...](http://www.mikelee.org/the-science-of- love-chemicals-and-romance.html) .

</comment><comment><USER16> The thing is, that marriage (Marriage 1.0) of say 50 years ago, is not the same as marriage today (Marriage 2.0). The laws and societal norms are different.

So it is not clear then, if the incentives to be married have changed (I think they have, based on my observation); if some part of the "math" is different, then, that would explain why the marriage rates are different.

</comment><comment><USER17> Thus post seems to be arguing against programs that would push people into marriages they'd otherwise avoid via financial or other incentives.

I read the "marriage promotion" agenda more charitably: Marriage is hard. Financial pressures make it harder. Reduce those pressures and more marriages are likely to be successful. And while I can't cite research here, the author himself acknowledges that a successful marriage is a desirable state for many people. He emphasizes the additional risks involved — What if your inlaws get sick? — but the addition of an earner/caretaker/constant companion also provides a hedge against a variety of existing economic, health and social risks.

<comment><USER6> Why is it more important to subsidize successful marriages than successful lives in general?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> A friend of mine has a great idea about how to approach marriage: don't unless you've dated for several years AND want to have (or already have) kids. If either condition fails, don't. Just don't.

<comment><USER19> That's pretty common in my social circles. Could just be a Scandinavian thing, but mostly people get married when some legally relevant change in their lives is coming up. The two most common are having kids, or moving to another country where visa issues might be more complex if you're unmarried. It's not the _only_ time people get married, and I do know married couples who don't have kids and don't plan to move abroad. But most of the couples I know who don't fall into those categories (including some who've been together for many years) haven't gotten married. To be honest even a number with kids haven't gotten married, despite still being together and raising the kids together.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I agree that statistical correlations of marriage with various outcomes are very weak evidence of a causal effect.

However, I hope that people will apply this logic to ideas that come from both the left and right, e.g. the NYC ad campaign against teen pregnancy.

The same applies to the general principal that the government should not promote particular lifestyle. If girls want to get pregnant at 18, how is that any more the government's business than if they want to not get married?

</comment><comment><USER21> The comments on that article are definitely worth reading.

</comment><comment><USER22> Take this discussion to MumsNet or something?

I don't see how it's befitting Hacker News.

</comment><comment><USER23> Marriage is an anachronism - a form of oppression at odds with the consumer society that we worship.

Hey - time for my Soma!</comment>


Ferrari Made a $94,000 Profit on Each Car It Sold in 2019: Study - <AUTHOR> https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ferrari-made-a-dollar94000-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019-study/ar-BB12slvJ <comment><USER2> Ferrari is an amazing company in terms of return on equity, profit margin and brand. Bummer it's a very expensive stock in the 35P/E range</comment>


Sharing a collection of email templates for reaching out to investors, press - <AUTHOR> https://www.producthunt.com/posts/cold-email-template-cc <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN! Long time lurker and thought I should join in on the fun

I have been raising seed funding for a new startup, and found it challenging whenever I need to reach out to a new person by email (investor, press, potential advisor...etc.). Drafting these emails always take me waaay too long. So I started collecting samples and templates from various sources for cold emailing people.

I thought others might find it useful to have a central place where they can find these email templates, filtered by tags (audience, usage, attributes...etc.), so I put together a microsite to host the content (at [https://coldemailtemplate.cc/](https://coldemailtemplate.cc/)). I am planning to add more email copies to it so please let me know if there are any resources you'd suggest!

Also submitted this to ProductHunt today ([https://www.producthunt.com/posts/cold-email-template- cc](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/cold-email-template-cc)) - I'd appreciate an upvote if you are on ProductHunt and find it useful Thanks all!</comment>


You Can't Trust What Cops About Automated License Plate Readers - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/03/heres-why-you-cant-trust-what-cops-and-companies-claim-about-automated-license <comment><USER2> The actual title is "Here's Why You Can't Trust What Cops and Companies Claim About Automated License Plate Readers".

The title currently shown above is a bit of a non-sequitur.</comment>


Patricia Tree - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Patricia-Tree <comment><USER2> I looked up the origin of the name "Patricia Tree":

 _" Donald R. Morrison first described what he called "Patricia trees" in 1968; the name comes from the acronym PATRICIA, which stands for "Practical Algorithm To Retrieve Information Coded In Alphanumeric". Gernot Gwehenberger independently invented and described the data structure at about the same time. PATRICIA tries are radix tries with radix equals 2, which means that each bit of the key is compared individually and each node is a two-way (i.e., left versus right) branch."_

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_tree#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_tree#History)</comment>


Why Do Python Make  Data Science Complicated? - <AUTHOR> There are a lot articles about which language  is  better for data analysis. I have been using python for many things web development, data analysis etc. But I started learning R. It is easy. Anything  that I  would do with python for data analysis now I would just do it in one liners. Why do Python Make Data Science so complicated? <comment><USER2> For the same reason why web development would be complicated using R. Python was designed as a general purpose programming language and can be used for a lot of things where as R was designed for data science.

<comment><USER3> If you already know Python and you need to explore some aspect of data science then Python based tools are very practical. Once you confirm your initial hypothesis, then you will probably use R for the production versions of your analysis.

Python is becoming the Swiss Army Knife of computing, lots of great tools that work with it, but for heavy duty use you will choose the most appropriate tool. The SWK might have a saw like blade, but you'd probably reach for the Black and Decker when wanting to cut some lumber. It is certainly going to be quicker and result in less sweating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> R was made specifically for statistical computing.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have been using sklearn to do basic regression on linear models. It would take more than 10 lines that is importing helper libraries like pandas to read csv's. But just a few days ago I tried R. Just two lines.</comment></comment>