A Man Who Saw the Pandemic Coming - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/83/intelligence/the-man-who-saw-the-pandemic-coming <comment><USER2> People are focusing on the "he saw it coming" aspect of the title.

I would encourage folks to read the article with an open mind as the "he saw it coming" is not really the point of most of what is said here.

This is is an expert who understands the realty of zoonotic spillover, and how it is going to become a more prevalent threat over time, and how to deal with that threat.

<comment><USER3> > People are focusing on the "he saw it coming" aspect of the title.

Of course - because it's a silly title. Give an article a silly title, expect silly comments.

<comment><USER4> Only if you hold people to the standard of engaging with an article on the basis of its headline instead of its substance.

We should hold everyone to a higher standard than that.

(At the very least, if the headline isn't enough to get you to read the article, avoid commenting on it.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > I'm stunned by the absolute absence of global dialogue for what is a global > event. In Europe right now, you would never believe that there was a > European Union.

This is my key takeaway. A lot of the damage is in the end self-inflicted. People seem not to be able to act cohesively at an inter-national scale, not even within a country group that is supposedly designed for that.

Whether it's pandemics, global warming or nuclear weapons this lack of cooperation shows up again and again.

<comment><USER6> This is happening on the individual level too. The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn't even taken hold yet is a stark reminder of how utterly selfish some people can be. Sadly the people that will end up with difficulties are the less selfish people who now can't get essential items even when there is zero need for them to be scarce.

Edit: As an example: I would like one bottle of hand sanitiser. That should last quite a while (nobody needs boxes and boxes of the stuff) and it would be very useful. I cannot buy it anywhere either IRL or online. As a last resort I just checked eBay. I found a 500ml approx bottle of Purrell for £17. Insane but given it would be very useful to have I almost bought it. Then I noticed the postage price was £100. The crazy part is that this person has sold quite a few of these according to eBay. You can claim this is the free market and supply/demand etc.etc. all you want but that doesn't make it ok. It's still incredibly selfish behaviour.

Edit 2: Any explanation for the downvotes? I almost self-censored my comment on the free market as I thought it might lead to downvotes - decided to go ahead with it anyway. If you disagree with anything I've said starting a discussion is much more productive than hiding something you don't like.

<comment><USER7> > _The panic buying of items like toilet roll + pasta in places the virus hasn > 't even taken hold yet is a stark reminder of how utterly selfish some > people can be._

I disagree… "before the virus has even taken hold" is the perfect time to do long-term shopping. Avoiding crowded areas (read: THE MALL and the public transports to get to the mall) is key to reducing infection.

Yes, hand sanitizer/face mask markets are ridiculous right now, but that's to be expected. It's not people being selfish, there's clearly genuine needs for it. When there's a fuckton of needs and not enough being produced… how is it people being selfish that you can't find hand sanitizer at a decent price? All those have been bought.

<comment><USER8> If everyone buys only what they need (e.g., if it's a small personal sanitizer bottle, keep 1 in use and 1 in inventory), demand could be spread out and crowds avoided.

The problem appears to combine habitual shopping for long term (not many have a 24/7 convenience store within 3 minutes of walking), panicked distrust in infrastructure reliability, and good old tragedy of the commons.

Some countries fare better on first two, but still have the last one (e.g., Hong Kong).

<comment><USER9> The thing is, normally most people done have ANY hand sanitizer, let alone two, as you describe.... so when suddenly everyone wants to buy them, there isn't enough for everyone to have even two. That doesn't make the people buying them selfish.

<comment><USER10> But that's not what they do, try to buy two or whatever reasonable number. A few people literally fill a shopping cart with toilet paper, water bottles, and hand sanitizer, and it's gone. The problem is one of capacity to match demand within such short time frames.

<comment><USER11> I went to Costco and saw people buying up to the limit on random stuff, and they end up with 6 months of toilet paper, 1 year worth of pasta, etc. I wanted one box of diapers (one lasts over a month), and there were only 4-5 boxes left when there's normally 20+, even when there's a good sale. I have never seen them be out of baby wipes, but they were out when I went (which is a shame because we just ran out). In fact, they had to shut down a local Costco because people are fighting over toilet paper.

COVID-19 isn't going to be some world ending thing, it's just going to put some supply pressure in the short term until production and distribution can ramp back up, but people are treating it like it will be. It's really frustrating.

<comment><USER12> The base problem is that it's Prisoner's Dilemma.

If nobody hoards, everyone is fine.

If a small number of people hoard, there are stock-outs, and everyone else has no access to the thing.

Ergo, the strictly dominant individual move is to hoard ASAP. As it provides coverage against all scenarios.

Limiting quantities is the obvious equitable response to this, so it's been good seeing retailers step up and do so.

<comment><USER8> I believe the implicit assumption here is distrust in reliability of supply, other people's behavior and infrastructure in general. Some cultures are more resistant to this kind of stuff.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It is very tempting to be drawn into these kind of articles. But they are always worth a little caution. Counting successful predictions post hoc is dangerous.

If there had been no pandemic this year, but California had suffered from an overwhelming earthquake, this article would read "A Wo/Man Who Saw the Earthquake Coming." If a catastrophic series of diplomatic failures had led to a nuclear strike: "A Wo/Man Who Saw the Nuclear War Coming." 20 years ago there were plenty of "A Wo/Man Who Saw the Terror Attacks Coming."

And I'm not suggesting these people are crazy or out there on the fringe. Experts working in an area might agree what a worst case situation is, but disagree whether it is likely. If we took every worst case scenario entirely seriously, we would do very little else.

Learning from the past is important. But estimating the probability of things that have occurred is really difficult and counterintuitive.

<comment><USER14> If someone saw it coming, and acted early, there would be no pandemic and the action would have been seen as an overreaction. There were at least two cases during the Cold War which could have caused nuclear war, but some people made the right call.

The article is focused more on future viruses. A bad thing happened now which was preventable.

We've got no nuclear plant meltdowns and no nuclear wars, because we applied security procedures learned from the past to the present. We have less killer quakes because buildings are built to withstand earthquakes now.

Most of these things aren't totally expensive to fix. They're a chain of bad events and all you have to do is break the chain at the weakest point. The Spanish flu was so deadly because people tried to bury it with propaganda and no quarantine measures were in place. At least today, we've panicked and taken action early.

<comment><USER15> > If someone saw it coming, and acted early, there would be no pandemic and > the action would have been seen as an overreaction

Preparing for every crisis that could potentially eventuate would come at the opportunity cost of doing anything else at all.

<comment><USER14> We don't have to focus on _every_ crisis. The context here is zoonotic spillover, which has killed millions of people historically, and it keeps happening again and again.

It's still okay that we didn't listen to experts like this last time. But this serves as a good wake up call. Avian flu didn't wake us. Swine flu didn't wake us. We were distracted when Spanish Flu came around. But let's not have this repeat too many times.

<comment><USER15> This line of reasoning is really just silly for a number of reasons.

For starters, preparing for every crisis that could potentially eventuate, even for just a single category of crisis, would still come at the opportunity cost of doing anything else at all.

Also, what's so special about spillovers? People suffer and die from all sorts of things every day.

Finally, what lessons do you expect people to learn from past spillover events? To not have contact with any non-human organisms? Spillovers happen all the time. Most human viruses come from other animals. Is it reasonable to expect we can predict which infections, out of the millions of spillover infections that occur ever year, are going to cause a crisis? Or predict when a typically self-limiting spillover infection is going to unexpectedly pick up a new transmission route? Or should all sickness be treated as if it were ground zero for the next pandemic until proven otherwise?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> He is not the only one.

I believe it was an Ask Me Anything with Bill Gates on Reddit.

Someone asked Gates about a third world war and he replied he was more sure and worried about a pandemic.

I have no doubt others in the field had the same thoughts.

The most troubling thing is that a lot of leaders dismissed this information.

<comment><USER17> He warned us. We didn't listen.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Af6b_wyiwI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Af6b_wyiwI)

<comment><USER18> I think about a gazillion people identified exactly this type of situation as a problem, and we've had plenty of other outbreaks. It is completely unsurprising. The UK has done a lot of modelling and prepping for such an event, as I'm sure have other governments, but that doesn't give you magic powers when it happens.

<comment><USER19> It's also worth bearing in mind that there's precisely one country which could possibly have done what he suggested and stopped this by preventing the spillover in the first place - China - and, well, good luck with that.

<comment><USER18> I think the problem is that the virus is so mild. You can't spot a lot of cases, so e.g. someone gets on a plane and is not showing symptoms and a few days later in Italy they get sick or infect others without realising they're ill.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's fair to say that a LOT of people saw it coming. Just in recent history we've dealt with Ebola, MERS, SARS so that they are viruses looking to become best buddies with us is not new, and it doesn't require a visionary to notice.

</comment><comment><USER21> If china allows those wet markets again I hope there will be international efforts to sabotage those markets, and even have sanctions on china if they do nothing to fight against those practices.

I've heard those farmers who breed those animals lobbied the chinese government to allow those farms. So in the end, they will not prevent those practices entirely. So it might happen again in a region where the government have less control. That's the scary part.

It's eye-opening that unscientific beliefs are actually endangering lives. It was true for anti-vax, but now we have reached a stage when ignorance reached a new stage of dangerosity.

<comment><USER22> It's more than wet markets, although those are obviously dangerous. It's the continued expansion of human population into rainforests and other wildlife areas:

> Yes. EcoHealth Alliance, an NGO, and others, looked at all reported > outbreaks since 1940. They came to a fairly solid conclusion that we're > looking at an elevation of spillover events two to three times more than > what we saw 40 years earlier. That continues to increase, driven by the huge > increase in the human population and our expansion into wildlife areas. The > single biggest predictor of spillover events is land-use change—more land > going to agriculture and more specifically to livestock production.

This is not going to be fixed easily. Everything from the deforestation of the Brazilian rainforest to Chinese population growth is driving it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I think the most important part in the article is that with the wave of populism and nationalism sweeping the world it's evident that this mindset is incapable of solving any real problem on any scale. Even if the virus goes away and the economy bounces back we've learned nothing and climate change and another wave of pandemics is upon us.

It's clear that market capitalism isn't resilient or robust. Our engine must always run on red and sooner or later it's going to brake down.

<comment><USER24> A car has brakes. An engine breaks down.

Apart from that I agree. We forgot the 'enlightened' self interest part of capitalism. My wealth means nothing if the planet has to die for me to get it.

<comment><USER25> The "enlightened" part was never there. That was always just self- justification.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> "Viruses live on a delicate balance, don't they? They have to be able to thrive without killing their host.

Right. The ones that kill off their host quickly will disappear. With the SARS virus, it's no surprise that killing 10 percent of its host, it wasn't able to establish itself as a pandemic virus on this planet."

<comment><USER27> a virus could kill 100% of its host, as long as it took a long time to do so while the host was still able to go around and infect others.

I don't think the 10% virulence is the reason (or the only reason) that SARS didn't make it to pandemic scale, I think it was everyone working against it and succeeding that time, which of course had the result of people thinking "hah, see it wasn't a problem, all those eggheads overreacting"

on edit: I think my main irritation is with the governments that did not put the proper preparation in the health systems (enough ICU preparation for example) for what was a foreseeable event.

<comment><USER28> If you kill 100% of your hosts, to which other host will you go? 100% means all.

<comment><USER29> Surely aids falls into this category

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I wonder if the end result of informing people that wildlife is swimming in potentially deadly viruses would be the attitude that the wildlife should be exterminated, not preserved.

</comment><comment><USER31> I submitted an article predicting Corona virus pandemic from 2013, but it wasn't upvoted:

The Next Pandemic: Not if, but When:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571607](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22571607)

<comment><USER32> I recon it didn't receive attention, because it's a trite observation, not prediction.

"It's not if, but when there will be another recession."

"It's not if, but when there will be another pandemic."

"It's not if, but when another asteroid hit the Earth."

We live in the real world, things happen more than once.

<comment><USER31> Yes, that's the headline. But the article is specifically about Corona and quite detailed:

> Coronaviruses are a genus of bugs that cause respiratory and > gastrointestinal infections, sometimes mild and sometimes fierce, in humans, > other mammals and birds.

...

> Another reason is that coronaviruses as a group are very changeable, very > protean, because of their high rates of mutation and their proclivity for > recombination: when the viruses replicate, their genetic material is > continually being inaccurately copied — and when two virus strains infect a > single host cell, it is often intermixed. Such rich genetic variation gives > them what one expert has called an "intrinsic evolvability," a capacity to > adapt quickly to new circumstances within new hosts.

...

> Bats, though wondrous and necessary animals, do seem to be > disproportionately implicated as reservoir hosts of new zoonotic viruses...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> from what I've seen, lots of people in many different countries saw it coming.

<comment><USER34> The three major groups of saw it coming are the "saw it coming from China" which only the most rational and steady-minded people were able to achieve, the "saw it coming once it spread to Italy" people (I fell in to this group because I fell prey to the "China is a different planet" fallacy), and the group you have a chance of joining today, the "realized American hospitals were going to get overwhelmed after seeing it happen in two other countries" group.

<comment><USER35> Plenty of us saw this coming as soon as news came out of China - even me [0]. The problem was none of us were able to do anything about it, either on a social or individual level beyond stocking up on food and other essentials in January before the masses panicked.

0\. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156140](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22156140)

<comment><USER36> It's been a very difficult, helpless feeling watching this all happen. A lot of people were watching from afar what occurred in Wuhan, then saw it spread to SK, Japan, and eventually Italy. When Disney and Starbucks shut down in China it was extremely concerning, and when FoxConn shut down it was terrifying.

I've been telling my friends and family that they should be gathering extra food, medications, etc. if for no reason other than the coming supply chain disruptions. At first they laughed, but at this point they seem like they're actually mad at me, and in some senses _blame_ me for the currently bare shelves in supermarkets. It sucks.

<comment><USER35> The feeling I have is like being tied to the railway line and watching the train coming around the bend.

Nobody has started to blame me for the situation, but plenty laughed at me at the time when I tried to warn them what is coming. They have stopped laughing.

<comment><USER37> The problem is probably that they lumped you up with all the doomsday predictors.

I have a certain friend who, for years, have been trying to tell everyone that normal food is bad and imported "superfoods" are the way to go.

Same goes for scaremongering of every other kind. I feel for everyone who warned about the corona virus in January there are 5 or 10 who warned about everything else which turns out to be a significantly smaller problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> _They came to a fairly solid conclusion that we're looking at an elevation of spillover events two to three times more than what we saw 40 years earlier. That continues to increase, driven by the huge increase in the human population and our expansion into wildlife areas. The single biggest predictor of spillover events is land-use change—more land going to agriculture and more specifically to livestock production._

 _It was avian influenza in the 2000s. What you saw with avian influenza was a direct consequence of how much poultry was being produced to feed people_

So meat eating is not only a big driver in climate change and antibiotic resistance but is also dramatically increasing the likelihood of these crossover pandemics. It's time for us to quit our toxic addiction to meat.

<comment><USER39> How does one do so without missing essential nutrients that are only found in meats, if we're requiring realistic quantities for daily consumption, and not an absurd volume of food.

For instance, there are certain things you find in large quantities in meat or fish, where the non meat aubsistute would require completely unrealistic amounts to be consumed to receive anywhere near the same amount.

If this could be concretely addressed, I think that'd convince a lot of people on the fence to switch.

<comment><USER38> The only nutrient that can not be found in plants is B12 which is easily supplemented. The official position of the American Dietetics Association is that diets completely free of animal products are _healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases_ :

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704)

We're killing ourselves and the planet just because we like the way animals taste.

<comment><USER40> We are not killing the planet, but we are putting ecosystems under pressure.

And evolution has given us tastes for things that are highly nutritious but were difficult to come by. Shall we deny ourselves these pleasures because they become problematic at scale? If so, what else should we ban by the same logic?

Perhaps the main problem is that there are too many of us. Or maybe we should be putting more effort into growing meat in vats.

Whatever we end up doing, I doubt it'll end in some kind of sustainable balance. Rather, we'll continue to multiply and consume as much as our technology allows and the environment can bare.

<comment><USER41> Have you tried eating raw pig or cow meat?

What gives meat the taste are the spices and the way we prepare it.

We now have great plant based alternatives (Impossible Food, Beyond Meat, and more coming on the market) that are getting better and better and which are less harmful to our biosphere. But even without those alternatives, there are so many great dishes that don't require meat and they are delicious and nutritious. Just have to have an open mind and explore what's out there.

RE: Shall we deny ourselves these pleasures because they become problematic at scale?

There are so many studies (some of which I posted further above). Science confirms that our current way of life is not sustainable.

So what is more important?

A) That we don't put our ecosystem under immense pressure as we are doing now

B) The pleasure you derive from eating chopped up animals

EDIT: formatting / typos

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> No more batfish soup for you!

</comment><comment><USER43> I started running at this full tilt on Jan 23rd, for the record. Making progress. The main problem was our information systems were taken over, but I fuxxed it pretty good I think. It was all about making the positive feedbacks.

</comment><comment><USER44> Great interview until he talks about the slowly boiling frog analogy : [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog) it's stupid but he lost his credibility for me there ...

<comment><USER45> I think he meant it metaphorically.

<comment><USER46> Obviously. He even calls it an old saw. That's a very strange reason to be put off from the article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I think the appearance of this virus, was only a matter of time. It's not a question of if, but, when.

The virus had existed in bats for millions of years, evolving and stabilizing itself symbiotically with the bat, and it took just the right combination, the right spark, to set off a chain of events that would allow it to eventually hunt down the human race.

</comment><comment><USER48> End all meat agriculture and urban sprawl globally, and the risks of developing novel pandemics would fall precipitously. They are the major sources and they are entirely deliberately chosen.</comment>


My mom is dying, and my bank account is dry. I need help - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.com/b6pHpWfR TL;DR If anyone has any work for me (strengths are Ruby/Rails, data mining) please email me. email@example.com (will go to my professional email) -- This is in regards to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7214446
If you're in Minnesota and would like to meet with me, let's meet.
Very-long; will read:
I'm posting here so I can vent to people that I would normally talk to in my day-to-day life. My life, however, hasn't felt day-to-day in so long.
It's felt like one, long clusterfuck of a bullet train inside my head.
I'm not popular here or in the startup community (in the larger sense). I haven't worked for any well-known startups nor do I contribute to any open-source projects. I haven't developed any killer libraries and I don't belong to mailing lists.
But I don't let that define me. At all.
There's nothing that I haven't taught myself. I'm very prideful and mostly confident about my abilities, but I don't consider myself an all-star at any one thing. I'm just pretty damn good at a lot of things.
I made a post on the Richard Lynch thread where we were discussing how the healthcare system is failing us because families shouldn't struggle to make ends meet. (and thus, my cover is blown) You have to go to page two to see the comment, and for the lazy: https://news.ycombinator.com/x?fnid=iFI3WthoE1Lln4guTBx4gL
(continued on http://pastebin.com/b6pHpWfR) <comment><USER2> My father was diagnosed with Stage IV colon cancer in 2007. He died in 2010 at the age of 60. I was 25. He too had multiple surgeries, chemo, radiation, etc. While we here in Canada don't pay directly for treatments, there was the cost of missed work, medical supplies, and the like. The following is directly, and deeply, informed by my own very personal experiences with cancer:

Let her die.

Chemo isn't going to save her, and it sure as hell won't improve her quality of life. It will give you maybe an extra year to watch her fade away before your eyes, and will inflict all manner of pain and discomfort on her in the process.

Your mother is going to die, far sooner than either of you would wish. That's unavoidable. What you do have control over is the quality of her life in her last few months, and in the effect that her passing has on the people she cares about. You can control how you spend what time you have left, but you have precious little control over how much of it you have to spend.

I'd suggest reading _How Doctors Die_ [1], a take on how those who have the most experience with cancer and its treatments choose to deal with it. Generally speaking, they don't.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I watched my stepmother tear herself apart refusing to accept the inevitable and pushing for every last available treatment. The extra six months or so that may have afforded him are not a six months I would wish on anyone.

You are going to lose your mother, and it will break both of your hearts. Pumping poison into her and bankrupting your family won't change that. Make your peace, and let her go.

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors- die...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/your-money/how-doctors-die.html)

<comment><USER3> I'm very sorry about your father. My father was just diagnosed with cancer (literally today). Obviously what you wrote is not sound advice for all kinds of cancers. I have two close family relatives who were cured of two different kinds of cancers (yes "cured", as in they lived for a decade plus after being cured and one died from other causes and the other is still alive). There are also people who are cured through these poisons, even of late stage deadly cancers like stage iv pancreatic: [http://www.pancan.org/section_stories/story_details.php?id=1...](http://www.pancan.org/section_stories/story_details.php?id=1902&lang=1#.Uw53gNzXGCY)

Ultimately how you choose to treat cancer depends on the stage, type of tumor, and the advice of your doctors. With that said, there are people who beat even the deadliest cancers, and that very small chance, is one worth thinking about.

<comment><USER2> No, it's not for all types of cancer. My advice relates only to those with terminal, metastatic cancer, and is not an admonition but rather a reflection on what I wish we had done.

>With that said, there are people who beat even the deadliest cancers, and that very small chance, is one worth thinking about.

I vividly recall looking at the 5-year survival rates for people diagnosed with Stage IV colon cancer. <5%. _<_. I don't know if I've ever stared at a single character on a screen for so long. That was about a year or so before he died, and I remember the mental gymnastics I went through trying to rationalize how _he_ would be the exception. At the time, it seemed unthinkable that we would _give up_. Of _course_ we would pursue every option.

I can't say what I would do if I were in that position again; I can only say what I wish I'd done at the time.

I wish the best of luck to you and your father.

<comment><USER3> Thanks I'm 26 and my dad is 59 and it's a serious cancer (not that any are "not serious") so I'm a similar age. I respect your story. I just wanted to point out the flip side of the equation - the real life, completely true, stories of the 5%.

<comment><USER4> Hey WoodenChair ...

no cerebral HN comment here, just a sincere wish: all the best. Details were different, but been there, almost, more than once.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm sorry for your problems, but could you please clarify a few questions for me because there are a lot of problems with what I'm reading:

1) You claim to be 22 years old, but your dad hasn't had a relationship with your mom in 25 years... what does that even mean?

2) You're 22 years old and you accumulated $150k already? What sort of work did you do, and for how long?

3) You claim to be penniless, but you spend you money on Uber all the time because you can't drive in the snow? Can you expand on this? Don't you think that Uber is an expensive choice for someone in your situation?

4) Your credit rating is already "bamboozled" and you're $6k in debt? But didn't you just have $150k 8 months ago? When did your credit rating start taking a hit?

5) Could you expand on the treatments that your mom underwent over the last 4 months that cost $150k?

<comment><USER6> I have to say I find it suspicious that 284 days ago he posted about how he had "no cash to build an MVP" and yet 3 months later he had 150k in savings.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5727255](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5727255)

<comment><USER7> It was more of an open-ended question for discussion, and I was wondering how other people had bootstrapped themselves when they needed to buy product in order to kickstart something.

<comment><USER8> It doesn't sound like this to me.

It seems you were begging for money for a brand-new project of yours. I actually remember it from last year. If you were dishonest about money then, why should we trust you now?

<comment><USER9> Online begging seems increasingly common, and surprisingly effective. This is not the first case I've encountered.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Serious question: Why were these bills paid by the son who would have no financial obligation in the case of his mother's bankruptcy?

America's health care safety net is bankruptcy and the 'cannot refuse critical treatment based on ability to pay' role of emergency rooms.

Seems the right course to take in these situations is to string along the hospitals until it ends up in bankruptcy and only pay out of pocket from the next generation when a deposit is required before care will be given. I don't like it, but that's the way the system works currently.

Edited to add: I'm clearly ignorant of some of the mechanics here, so longer explanations of how things work with illnesses like this would be very much appreciated.

<comment><USER11> Because on-going treatment for a terminally-ill patient is not something the hospital will continue to do without being paid. They would cut her off.

<comment><USER12> No they won't. The people doing the treatment and the billing department don't talk to each other.

She might not be able to be transferred to another hospital if there are outstanding bills, but once inside the hospital they can't refuse to treat.

Plus this is exactly why medicaid exists. She would qualify easily.

<comment><USER13> _Sorry for the extremely long response to such a short statement. The pain medication I 'm now on makes me "speed" and talk a lot. The girlfriend has already told me once this evening "I like you better when you're not talking". :)_

> The people doing the treatment and the billing department don't talk to each > other.

Don't be so sure. While you're almost certainly correct in the literal sense _( "[they] don't talk to each other")_, the medical staff working directly with the patients almost certainly know of your ability to pay.

 _Anecdote_

On October 3rd, I was on the losing end of a (not-at-fault) head-on motorcycle vs. Jeep Cherokee collision. I had insurance on my motorcycle, of course, but did not have health insurance at the time. [0]

Five days in the hospital plus three surgeries quickly added up to roughly $106,000 USD, according to a hospital lien that was filed with the courts -- and that doesn't even include all of the follow-up visits, the ambulance ride (over $3,000 for a couple mile trip across town), the home health nurses, nearly three months of physical and occupational therapy, and so on. I haven't actually added everything up yet, but the total cost is probably somewhere around $150,000.

(Since someone usually asks... Both of my wrists were broken along with the femur in my right leg. Initially, they thought that my nose and ankle were also broken but that turned out to not be the case. I was wheelchair-bound and couldn't walk for about six weeks, couldn't bathe myself, and couldn't perform a few other "self-hygiene" activities that I won't mention (use your imagination -- it's hard to reach certain places when you can't bend your elbows). Side note: the old joke about having a nurse come and give you baths? In reality, it's not nearly as hot or sexy as it might sound. :)

However, on pretty much every form that needed a signature while I was in the hospital, it was noted quite clearly right at the top that I had no health insurance. That said, I have no reason to believe I was treated any differently than if I did have health insurance and I am very satisfied with the level of care that I received. The highly recommended specialist surgeon who operated on my extremely messed up left wrist cleared his calendar for the day and made a two-hour (one-way) trip to perform the surgery after finding out that my injuries were sustained in a motorcycle accident (he is also a biker).

 _Another anecdote_

I have had a sore throat since Saturday which progressively got worse. After becoming completely unable to eat or drink anything due to the extreme pain when swallowing and not being able to sleep at all last (Tuesday) night, I was waiting at the local walk-in clinic before 0800 this morning when the staff arrived.

In under an hour, I had been seen by one of the intake nurses, been checked out by a doctor, diagnosed with an abscess on my tonsils [1], had arrangements made with an ENT specialist (handled completely by the staff, of course) and was on my way across town to see the specialist.

At her office, I was "jumped ahead" in line due to the immense pain I was suffering (as I found out later when I asked just how I managed to get seen so quickly when the waiting room was packed) and was in the exam room talking with the specialist within about 20 minutes of my arrival.

Very quickly, her staff had brought in all the necessary tools she needed, and she went to work spending nearly an hour performing a "needle aspiration" [2] on a patient whose gag reflex was making it extremely difficult. =)

Fortunately, everything went well. I left and picked up several prescriptions at the pharmacy and was feeling wonderful just two hours later. I'm writing this just 10 hours after leaving the specialist's office.

When asked about health insurance upon my arrival at both the walk-in clinic and the specialist's office, I told the receptionists that I was a "self-pay" and offered to pay up front. Both times I was told, in effect, "we'll have to wait until afterwards because we don't know what all will need to be done". They made a note on the paper work which was passed around between the nurses and doctors but I wasn't treated any differently in the least (at the specialist's, "self-pay -- will pay balance at end of visit" was written in red ink at the top of the first page; it clearly stood out). At the time I was seen and treated, no one had any idea whether I actually had the ability to pay a single penny. Despite that, the specialist had already explained that they were prepared to quickly perform a tonsillectomy (which would, obviously, have been a much, much more expensive procedure) if the needle aspiration was not successful.

Before leaving each of the offices, I wrote a personal check to cover the costs of the exams and procedures (in full). I have no evidence to cite but, based upon personal knowledge, I would wager that the average uninsured U.S. resident is not in a position to do so, financially. I am confident, however, that they would not have been treated any differently. (I was told up front at the specialist's that I would need to pay at least $35 today but I was not required or even asked to pay it prior to any services being rendered.) Keep in mind that this is the same hospital system where I currently have an outstanding balance of $150,000 or so (although this is more of an issue between the two insurance companies and not really "my problem" and the hospital is aware of that).

Again, during the five-day hospitalization after the crash and during my visits today, I do not feel that I was in any way treated differently because I do not have health insurance. Perhaps my experiences are anecdotal, but I simply do not feel that it is correct that ...

> The people doing the treatment and the billing department don't talk to each > other.

I should make it clear that I am absolutely _NOT_ a fan of the health care system in the U.S. and I likely wouldn't even believe what I have written above had I not experienced it firsthand myself.

 _Side note:_ I called up an ex-girlfriend while typing up this novel of a comment. She's an MSN and the charge nurse in the cardiac department at the largest local hospital (the same one where I spent five days recently). According to her, there are some "extras" that a person without health insurance might not receive (think "fringe benefits" or "above and beyond") but an individual's insurance coverage/ability to pay (or lack thereof) "isn't even something that we pay attention to. Insurance info is usually on the paperwork if they are an existing patient but in my department the patients are often well into their recovery or have died by the time we would even know anything about their insurance. If you come onto my floor my first priority is treating you and doing everything in my power to save your life. Whether or not you can pay the bill is not an exception to the oath [3] that I took. Personally, I don't give a shit. That's up to billing to deal with later." (I quoted here but I'm paraphrasing.)

[0]: After leaving my previous job, I maintained COBRA for 18 months but it had since elapsed and I had not gotten around to signing up with my current employer's health insurance plan (and still haven't, actually. Note to self.).

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peritonsillar_abscess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peritonsillar_abscess)

[2]: using a large needle to puncture the abscess and withdraw the built-up pus and blood

[3]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath)

<comment><USER14> Some random thoughts, as a recent hospital patient and EMT/paramedic.

\- You think your bill for $150,000 is bad for your car-bike MVA? I had a kidney stone and walked away with a bill for $58,000 (thankfully I had insurance).

\- I don't work (you didn't claim I did) for an ambulance service that performs "wallet biopsies" on scene. Never heard of that term until The Sopranos came along. Interesting fact - in most states, ambulance costs, private or otherwise, are regulated, and must be registered - and approved - by the DOH EMS and Trauma department. This is due to the fact that very many, if not most, of the people who receive this service have only "implicitly consented" to it.

\- you're right, we don't care about insurance - nor do the docs we work with.

\- Your ex-gf swore the Hippocratic Oath? Out of curiosity, at what school? Mainly because it's generally the Declaration of Geneva these days... only 2% of medical schools use the Oath... fun fact, the Oath forbids the use of the knife on flesh, which might be ... problematic ... for surgeons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Will it take every single voting age person in America having a first-hand experience like this to change health care?

How can any sane person prefer this over the alternative offered by Developed countries?

<comment><USER16> Main reason I never want to live in America is health care. Just knowing that no matter what I'll be admitted to the hospital and treated is something I never want to live without. *2nd reason would be gun violence.

<comment><USER17> You seem to be mistaken on both counts.

First, a federal law called EMTALA requires hospitals to provide emergency treatment regardless of citizenship or ability to pay.

Second, there is more violence in the UK (about 2.5x-3x times as much per capita -- 993 violent crimes/100K vs. 399 violent crimes/100K) than the United States. And more pro-2A decisions from courts have led to a trend of reduction in US gun violence, including DC murders falling below triple digits post- Heller for the first time since 1963. (Of course it's possible that you live in a very peaceful society and view the UK as also having an unacceptable level of violence.)

Now you may or may not choose to ever live in the United States; I don't care and it doesn't affect me either way. But you may want to educate yourself first.

<comment><USER18> Those violent crimes in the UK don't tend to involve guns and/or becoming dead.

UK homicide rate: 1.2 per 100,000 persons US homicide rate: 4.7 per 100,000 persons

You are more than twice as likely to get beaten up in the UK than the US. You are around 4 times as likely to be murdered in the US than the UK.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

The UK has a violence problem, probably at least in part due to the drinking. I feel less safe in London than LA. But it is crazy to deny that US gun violence isn't a thing.

<comment><USER17> Nobody is saying that gun violence doesn't exist (though I wonder how much is limited to inner cities in areas none of us want to live in if we have a choice).

But we're talking at cross purposes. The first post talked about violence. The second talked about violence. The third in the sequence, yours, switched the discussion to talk about _homicides_. Not all violent crimes are homicides.

<comment><USER18> Quoting the first post

"*2nd reason would be gun violence."

The frequency of violence in the US is lower, but the death rate due to violence is much higher. Violence seems to be much more lethal in the US, for some reason.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's a fucking embarrassment that there isn't an obvious person to call for help here.

I wish there was an organization that would help people navigate their healthcare. Like a medical concierge/social worker. Someone is an expert on The System and acts entirely on your behalf.

The would oversee your entire healthcare. They book your appointments, remind you to go, handle most billing issues, make sure you're up to date on prescriptions, and even provide emotional support. They involve themselves _deeply_ with your medical care the way an old loyal family doctor might. All you do is be the patient.

You would have to hire and train amazingly great people, but I think there's enough good people in the world that would find the work so fulfilling you could make it work.

Medical problems can be incredibly sad, lonely, scary and it's the one place where procrastination literally kills. Regardless of how crazily you could spend a project like this it would _still_ probably pay for itself based on early detection, better outcomes, etc.

<comment><USER20> [http://minnesotahelp.info/Public/default.aspx?se=healthcare](http://minnesotahelp.info/Public/default.aspx?se=healthcare)

<comment><USER19> Looks like a reasonably useful resource but there's no where there he can call to get the service I just described.

<comment><USER20> Sure, it would be nice if there was a single point of contact. Minnesota appears to do things at a county level:

[http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_DYNAMI...](http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_DYNAMIC_CONVERSION&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&dDocName=id_000297#)

(that's a couple of clicks from my other link)

The point is, there are resources to access. Hopefully they have been looked into already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> American health care is one of the biggest worries in my life. I don't hold my breath about it being fixed though.

</comment><comment><USER22> > Does my family qualify for assistance? No. Plain and simple.

Can you elaborate on this?

Prestigious, well-endowed, non-profit hospitals - typically major university medical centers - usually have the most robust financial assistance programs available. Most of them will simply write off the cost of your treatment if you really can't afford it.

I can't say for sure how it works for terminally ill cancer patients, but, I haven't seen anything to indicate disqualification or lack of coverage would take place. I'm sure it depends on the hospital though.

If she's currently receiving treatment from a for-profit hospital without deep pockets, then it's a safe bet their financial assistance program(s) are probably bullshit.

<comment><USER23> From what I have read, the for-profit hospitals spend the same or more resources on helping financially strapped patients compared to their non- profit counterparts.[1]

[1] [http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/76xx...](http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/76xx/doc7695/12-06-nonprofit.pdf)

<comment><USER22> Sorry, I should have made it more clear I was speaking in context of coverage for exorbitantly expensive, state-of-the-art cancer treatment. Interesting paper, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Have you considered moving her for treatment to another country, like in France or Germany? I don't think they'll rip you off as much, and they'll treat you much better.

[http://blogs.reuters.com/anya-schiffrin/2014/02/12/the- frenc...](http://blogs.reuters.com/anya-schiffrin/2014/02/12/the-french-way- of-cancer-treatment/)

</comment><comment><USER25> I have been seeing this a bit on HN... To the OP and anyone else dealing with a situation similar:

This is going to be the worst time of your life. God forbid you have to go through it multiple times. You can't "save" people. Their misfortune is not your fault. You support, as much as you fucking can, you pay bills, you sacrifice, you love, you care, you show up! But at the end of the day, try to feel the love and not the anger and depression.

It won't "save" your loved ones, but you can save yourself from letting their sickness eat you as well. I feel so bad for this kid, real or not. I was just their in December and lost my second parent. I too share the burden of debt and stress and nightmares, all of which are immense. I hope she makes it, and if she does, give her the time with her son that she probably deserves. If she doesn't, you should first focus on just breathing, the rest of your future is dictated by letting your emotions go the course and not regretting supporting your loved one through the fight.

It's kind of like being a boat with your loved one and it's sinking. Everyone is watching it sink. You scream and yell all you want, but everyone knows its going down. Soon you sink and it stills shocks you, even though you also knew it was going to happen. Don't try to breath underwater.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm 22. I'm stressed. Everything's fucked up. My mom is dying. I need help.

TL;DR If anyone has any work for me (strengths are Ruby/Rails, data mining) please email me. firstname.lastname@example.com (will go to my professional email) -- This is in regards to [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7214446](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7214446)

If you're in Minnesota and would like to meet with me, let's meet.

Very-long; will read:

I'm posting here so I can vent to people that I would normally talk to in my day-to-day life. My life, however, hasn't felt day-to-day in so long.

It's felt like one, long clusterfuck of a bullet train inside my head.

I'm not popular here or in the startup community (in the larger sense). I haven't worked for any well-known startups nor do I contribute to any open- source projects. I haven't developed any killer libraries and I don't belong to mailing lists.

But I don't let that define me. At all.

There's nothing that I haven't taught myself. I'm very prideful and mostly confident about my abilities, but I don't consider myself an all-star at any one thing. I'm just pretty damn good at a lot of things.

I made a post on the Richard Lynch thread where we were discussing how the healthcare system is failing us because families shouldn't struggle to make ends meet. (and thus, my cover is blown) You have to go to page two to see the comment, and for the lazy: [https://news.ycombinator.com/x?fnid=iFI3WthoE1Lln4guTBx4gL](https://news.ycombinator.com/x?fnid=iFI3WthoE1Lln4guTBx4gL)

My mom isn't well. While her tumor is shrinking (it was originally the size of a baseball), her doctors continuously insist on more and more treatment to get it as small as possible, even though it's stage-IV. Her treatments are so fucking specialized that even after the insurance company does their thing, we're still out five-figures per treatment. It's insane, and criminal. When asked if there were any alternatives, the reply is always, "this is what we have to treat her with. There's nothing around it."

While I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm confident in saying that someone is getting paid. Guess what? It's not my mom.

There was news today, however, that with four more months of what she's doing with her treatments, she might have bought herself another year to live. If everything goes to plan, she'd able to pump the brakes on all these hardcore treatments.

In August of 2013, I had in excess of $150k in my savings. This was from good client relationships, an acquisition, some domains I sold, a lucky lotto ticket, and always being thrifty. (and not spending money on clothes, though I desperately need some)

When it was confirmed she was very ill in late October of 2013, I moved back home. I packed up all my stuff, said cheers to my startup fam on the coast (which I was going to do anyway), and began a frivolous job hunt. I sold my car, and everything I could, because I knew what was about to come.

My bank account is nearly dry. It's currently sitting at $10. Yes, just $10. My checking account is at $1.26, and there are no pending checks, or wires, coming my way.

Where did the money go? 97% of it went to my mom's bills: 4 months of treatments, drugs, hospital visits, seeing specialists…

My father, who is a good man some of the time, hasn't had a relationship with my mother for 25 years. How they popped out three kids is beyond me. (it's funny because if you look at our birthdays, our dates of conception are all holidays!) There are politics behind that which I don't care to go into but will if asked.

Sometimes he's a good father, particularly to my brother -- why? I don't know. He does nothing special, and has an assortment of issues (violence, anger). My sister, being the only girl of two generations on my father's side, is of course spoiled endlessly.

My sister, while we're on the subject: She's my best friend, and she sticks up for me whenever my family (" ") decides to talk shit about me -- because I've been so removed for so long, and still misunderstood, my mother/father/brother assume the things that happened so many years ago and applies them now. My sister will plead with them in tears in her eyes, begging for them to just get the facts straight.

What does my word mean? Very little to them. To my sister? Everything.

Here's a picture. [http://i.imgur.com/EZNKdI0.png](http://i.imgur.com/EZNKdI0.png) Yes, she is beautiful.

My father is able to provide the basics, but not able to assist in the bigger picture of things for reasons I'm not cleared to know. He was taken back by me taking control up until this point, but now the future is up in the air. Will she get her treatments? That depends if it becomes classified as "emergency" by the hospital. I've spoken with the Patient Advocate Foundation and this is unfortunately the news I got.

Does my family qualify for assistance? No. Plain and simple.

Will my father step in? He didn't for his own mother who he was close to, so I'm just going to assume he'll continue to be negligent.

I can't take out a loan because my credit is bamboozled. I'm already in about $6k in debt and it's not fun.

I'm desperate to do what I can for my mom. I haven't always been the best of son, but that doesn't mean that I'm not trying to be now. I am doing what I would do for anyone, and because it's my mom, it's all that more dear to my heart.

I have a (mostly) full-time job right now, co-founding a startup that we're bootstrapping. I'm yet to get a paycheck after almost 2 months of work because my co-founder hit a snag with some investors from a previous gig. I'm OK with this because in the long-run things will be golden. While those checks would be nice, they don't cover much unfortunately. Thankfully, though, I have a lot of what I need to do done, so I'm able to look for other work to fill the gaps.

I'd get a full-time job but I don't have a car and I live in the deep suburbs of Minneapolis. I'm also terrified of driving in the snow (PTSD). I Uber everywhere (I won some monthly credit on my account a while ago).

If anyone has any work they can kick off their hands / can put me to use for, I'd be gracious to take it. I know my ways with Ruby and I do love Rails. Lately I've whipped up some SaaS platforms, written APIs, conquered APIs, mined iTunes/Play Stores, built my mom an app to keep track of her meds, stuff like that. I'll email a portfolio / linkedin / whatever when we talk.

To all of you, "Be Content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you."

<comment><USER26> To me it sounds like you never had a long-term plan for the treatment or your own future. You jumped in, blew your savings, and now you're stuck.

It's too late for "could-have, should-have", but if you somehow manage to procure more money, at least consider alternatives such as slower treatment schedules or flying your mother to a country where such treatments are cheaper (India comes to mind as a potential option)[0]. Also, consider a second opinion to understand whether continued treatments will make a fundamental difference.

>I'm also terrified of driving in the snow (PTSD). I Uber everywhere

I've heard of PTSD from rape or war, but this is totally new to me. What happened?

>I'm yet to get a paycheck after almost 2 months of work because my co-founder hit a snag with some investors from a previous gig. I'm OK with this because in the long-run things will be golden.

That sounds very strange to me. If my family was in need, I personally would jump on a first job with a stable paycheck that I could get so I could (slowly but surely) provide money. This seems like poor timing to bet on a lottery ticket (which, as HN reminds us, most startups are).

[0] - inb4/none of these are an option because reasons

<comment><USER27> >To me it sounds like you never had a long-term plan for the treatment or your own future. You jumped in, blew your savings, and now you're stuck.

You think that the OP is to blame for not having a long-term plan for a scenario in which one's very close family member is diagnosed with a previously unknown disease and $150k is not enough to take care of that?

You think this is an instance of _poor planning_ on the OP's fault?

<comment><USER26> I do.

Cancer kills quickly, but not "tomorrow" quickly. This gives an opportunity to consider the big picture and how you'll navigate this challenge. The OP himself writes that his savings lasted for 4+ months. I was surprised that, in this timeframe, zero thought appears to have been given to the question: "What happens when my money runs out?".

The final outcome may have been the same (asking for donations online), but you'd be starting out early instead of with your back against the wall. Same as with startup funding: if you look for funding only when you're out of runway, you'll have a next-to-impossible time of securing it (or securing it on good terms).

<comment><USER27> Okay! Scenario time! Same thing happens to you, or your family. A family member has cancer. It's going to cost $50k and a few months. What do you do?

Oh wait. Instead of $50k, it's more like $75k. Actually, make that $125k. But it's going to be $125k and no more.

Just kidding. In fact, because I'm playing the role of Life + Healthcare in this scenario, I'm going to lob a little bit more at you. In fact, it's going to be $1M. (Think this is implausible? Sorry, it's not. [1]) What are you going to do? Also, I may up that number a little bit more, just for kicks. What are your plans?

[1] [http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/02/tim_a...](http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/02/tim_armstrong_blames_distressed_babies_for_aol_benefit_cuts_he_s_talking.html)

<comment><USER26> Your post may be more convincing if you outlined your actual point instead of relying on hypothetical scenarios. My only guess at what you're saying is: "Healthcare costs can be unpredictable." That's a fair assumption, but it fails to negate my previous point in any way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'm always astonished on how BAD the situation with Health care actually _is_ over there. Surely the best, you just need to be rich. It's just disgusting.

</comment><comment><USER29> Sorry to hear about this. Do you have a portfolio/github where I can check your ruby on rails previous code?

<comment><USER7> I don't, I actually have everything with Beanstalk (private repos)

inb4 someone says "that's $$$ that you could be spending on yo momma" \-- I used to sleep with one of their execs and put me the plan they give their employees.

<comment><USER30> Clone some things over to a public repo – even just some stuff you think showcases your skills.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Thank you for reading my story and hearing me out.

<comment><USER31> Do you have a way people can send money?

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I still wish that instead of some massive, problematic bill, we had got something that would stop disasters like this.

I really wish a simple fee[1] had been added to insurance plans, paid to the government, to cover a "catastrophic care" insurance to pick up all bills over $50K or maybe $75K. It would have save everyone on premiums[2] and stopped the destruction of a family by one event. Instead we got targeted, issue-based freebees.

1) Government should just add all the uninsured

2) having a max payout on an incident of care makes for some interesting changes to risk

</comment><comment><USER33> I lost my Mom to cancer in September. Cancer is a nightmare. My heart goes out to you.

They didn't catch my Mom's cancer until it was already Stage 4 and the size of an orange to grapefruit. She developed massive ascites which caused her to gain 30+lbs of fluid. People don't know how bad cancer is until you live it first-hand.

I was my Mom's full-time caregiver. It was hard. But now that I can look back, I feel privileged to have been able to be with her.

Do you know what the word "diaper" is spelled the other way around? Repaid.

</comment><comment><USER34> Post on ruby.mn, with a link to a github account with some code samples, preferably with a unit test.

Minnesota is an outstanding place that has programs in place for these sorts of things, and plenty of work. The winters are brutal, but the people are well read & kind.

In fact I referred a PHP transplant from DC to 4 startups today, I'll email you for your deets and get the ball rolling.

[UPDATE] Meeting at Spyhouse NE to get him sorted @7 we'll be the ones dressed as nerds by accident instead of on purpose.

</comment><comment><USER35> Have you thought about applying for medicaid? As far as I understand they cover all your medical expenses, as long as you're making below a certain amount per year?

<comment><USER7> My father makes too much. :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> That's a tough read, wish I could help. Shame on the other readers who want to lecture you and quiz you instead.

Seems to me many people don't realize that the uninsured only have access to emergency room treatment only, and cancer therapy is not provided by the ER. If you're not insured and you can't pay then you don't get therapy, it's sadly that simple.

</comment><comment><USER37> Some advice..

He needs to consult with a patient advocate that knows Medicaid procedures. IT will be frustrating..more so since he needed to do it in the fall of 2013.

[http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program- Information/By...](http://www.medicaid.gov/Medicaid-CHIP-Program- Information/By-State/minnesota.html)

</comment><comment><USER38> To be honest I am not sure this is US only fail.

In Europe cancer is treated for free. But there is barrier which prevents doctors from puring money into terminal patients. Some special procedures available in US are not on the list (not accredited yet). Some others have priority queue and person over 50 would not have a chance to qualify.

</comment><comment><USER39> Horrible to hear. My mother died when I was at a similar age. Although there was little support from my family either, I live in Germany, so the state pays for Health care and there is welfare for people who cannot work.

And still the stress seemed overwhelming. But in comparison I really can't complain...

<comment><USER40> Same here. I've been 17 when my mother died of cancer. Reading this, I'm happy to live in Germany.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> What is the 'max out of pocket' on your mother's insurance plan? With many plans I've seen, once you've paid out of pocket X thousands of dollars for the year, the insurance picks up 100% of the cost, as long as you are seeking treatment at an in-network provider.

</comment><comment><USER42> Can you let us know your paypal account where ppl can send money or any other way to send money to you?

</comment><comment><USER43> Sorry to hear this. Do you have an account where we can donate money?

<comment><USER7> It's hard for me to accept handmeouts, but if anyone decides to be insisting, I'll vow to pay it forward (I always do) and even start a blog about the course of the treatments (with pictures of paid bills, etc.) I'm a big believer in full-disclosure.

I made the account under firstname.lastname@example.com and I'll follow up with you with pictures of the paid invoices. I know there are trolls that do this, but for all that I have, I'm not one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> one consequence of the US system is that treatment ends up on the bills.

How can children have confidential access to a doctor when that doctor visit will appear onthe bill?

This prevents young people from seeking help for a range of problems including sexual health and self harm.

</comment><comment><USER45> "I feel sorry for you but your mom should have worked harder to get a better job that had better insurance. If we just give people free healthcare, it will breed laziness"

-typical HN libertarian. They'll show up, just wait.</comment>


Bladderwort - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utricularia <comment><AUTHOR> "All _Utricularia_ are carnivorous and capture small organisms by means of bladder-like traps. ... [These] are recognized as one of the most sophisticated structures in the plant kingdom."</comment>


10 Product Management Hacks for Times when you're strapped for Resources - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/what-i-learned-today/638668b88c6c

<comment><AUTHOR> Please let me know if you have any product management hacks of your own.</comment>


What If the Kindle Succeeds?  - <AUTHOR> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/08/kindle <comment><USER2> I'm surprised (and pleased) that the author doesn't try to rail at the DRM in the kindle, but does praise the benefits the kindle brings to the market as a whole.

He happily accepts that DRM will inevitably fail in books, as it has in music. I absolutely agree that DRM is bad, but I also admire his ability to let the issue slide at this early stage in the market.

<comment><USER3> "Early stage"?

e-books are far older than mp3s and avis. Baen Books has been selling speculative fiction in non-DRMed e-book formats for years and (disregarding the fact that almost all of their stuff is shit) it's done very well for them. Cory Doctorow gives away all his books for free, and it's increasingly a tactic adopted by others in the speculative fiction business; four of the five nominees for the Hugo Award this year were released in DRM-free format (for FREE, even) so Hugo voters could have a better chance of reading them.

So, if this is the early stage of e-books, I wonder what it'll look like when the market is mature.

<comment><USER4> "Early stage" of the market. That does not necessarily equal in the technology.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The ease of readability is what will ultimately make or break ebook readers. If the display is large enough and easy on the eyes and the interface simple and intuitive I can imagine a device capturing a certain following. Other things like price of the unit, prices and restrictions on books, and portability will be addressed if the market is there.

I remember reading ebooks on my Palm several years ago and finding it a less- than-enjoyable experience. Though I've never actually used a Kindle it seems to be a large step in the right direction.

<comment><USER6> Interactivity will become increasingly important as well. I think we'll eventually see ways to interact with books that no one had thought of before. E-ink displays like the Kindle and the Sony Reader will therefore go the way of the dinosaur. They are great for daylight readability and low power use, but they are too slow!

<comment><USER7> It would be cool if e-books made it easier to read in foreign languages. In a language that I mostly but not entirely comprehend, I very often want a translation or explanation of a word or passage. Reading a real-world book with a dictionary at hand is a huge pain.

<comment><USER6> What about a "translation mode" where every time you pointed at a word, there would be a pop-up definition. Probably also enable swipe-highlighting a passage and getting a translation as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> One interesting idea is that of printing every book you want, on demand. Using <http://www.lulu.com/> you can get prices of $8 per copy plus $8 postage, and you provide a PDF (around 250 pages is ideal). It's $16 per item too - no need for an order of say 30 books. Multiply that into $300 and that's quite a few books you can stack on the shelf.

</comment><comment><USER9> Killer feature: Make the kindle completely waterproof. It's so obvious.

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't think the Kindle is in any danger of shutting down the ink-and-paper presses yet. 10% of sales, on Amazon, of books available electronically is a vanishingly small percentage of the market.

Now if you could rent books via the Kindle in the style of O'Reilly Safari, that could be a game-changer.

<comment><USER6> Reference books would be great for something like Kindle but with a more interactive interface. Being able to search and flip back and forth quickly between bookmarks would be great for reference. And the great thing about lots of kinds of reference? People will pay subscriptions for the kind that gets updated often! People will pay just to have information at their fingertips and not have to carry 3 or 4 thick volumes around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> What seems odd is that Amazon seems to be trying to avoid a game change.

They want to make reading /book ownership & retail different with as little effect on what goes on further up the value chain as possible. Prices are more or less the same, for one.

That doesn't seem to make sense.

<comment><USER11> Actually, it makes tons of sense.

Amazon is the king of online book sales. They're connected to the world's publishers and authors and they're really enjoying their position above everyone else.

If the way we view eBooks were to change, if eBook prices were to reflect their true costs, the entire online book industry would be shaken.... it most likely will happen, sooner or later, but Amazon (smartly) doesn't want to be the one to instigate such an upheaval that would leave them in a risky situation.

It's very likely that should such an event occur, they would adapt and remain the kings of online media sales - but it's a risk that they don't _have_ to take - they're already at the top so it's nothing to gain and everything to lose.

They're trying to shape the emerging market by their own hands in their own way, a step at a time, to ensure that they'll always be safe.

<comment><USER4> If what collapses the current industry structure is apple's device, they'll probably come out in a decent position.

If that's what's going to happen anyway, isn't it better to lead? Especially if there's a chance of locking users in to a device with DRM. And it seems impossible that there won't be a change. The whole economics of printing is built on the realities of.. printing. How long can they keep pretending that books are being printed?

But I guess you're right. It's not 'no sense' it's 'no cojones'.</comment></comment></comment>


Indian army man learns to code at age of 65 and now have 110 customers - <AUTHOR> https://www.linkedin.com/hp/update/6261057287436230656 <comment> happy-go-lucky > Yesterday I met this amazing guy Kuldeep Sahni, he is a retired lieutenant > colonel of Indian Army. At the age of 65, he started learning to code. In > less than 6 months he built his hospital management system especially for > Army hospitals from scratch. Now his hospital management system is used by > more than 125 hospitals across India. He is 68 now and still has the passion > for learning. No wonder, age is just a number. He is such an inspiration to > young generation and entrepreneurs. A big salute to this man.

> He is looking for .NET freelancers to scale his initiative, if anyone in my > network is interested please let me know.

For those who have no LinkedIn account, that's all of the article. I googled for the army man, found no relevant info. With so many customers, they must have a website. Seems to be a click bait :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, He is not on LinkedIn. He has only Army hospitals as customers and he has a standalone application/Software. All the customers he got were from word of mouth and personal connections so did not bother to create the website.

Plus he is not doing that for money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> In 2000, I taught an unaccredited programming course at my local community college. It was once a week for four hours on Saturdays. The language, Perl, was an elective. The choice of language and scheduling guaranteed a rather diverse group of students.

One fellow in his late 40s was a security guard at the college, and so classes were inexpensive for him. He was particularly drawn to my class because there were a number of Perl related jobs in the area at the time.

During my office hour after the class, we sometime chatted and I discovered that he had been working at a local manufacturing facility for almost 20 years. That facility had shut down some years earlier and all of the jobs moved overseas. (1)

He was a pretty bright guy, and though he had almost no technical background before he started taking classes a year earlier, he was passing my class.

I asked him about his hundred of ex-coworkers that had also been laid off. Few if any were making as much progress as he was toward building a new career from scratch in the second half of their lives.

Some people can learn radically different, technical skills later in life. I'm now in the second half of my life and I'm learning new things every week, though I've been deep in technology since I was 10 years old.

A better question is this: of the hundreds of people laid off from that factory, and the thousands laid off in that particular region, how many would be able to find tech jobs if even half managed to get the proper training?

1) The building lay idle for a couple of years, and then was bought by a large multinational company based in the area, and turned into its primary Information Systems location. [https://www.google.com/maps/place/David+Glass+Technology+Cen...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/David+Glass+Technology+Center,+Bentonville,+AR+72712)

That's where 90% of the tech jobs in the area were, so over the next 9 years I would occasionally look up his name to see if he'd hired on. Once he finished his training I was going to surprise him at his desk! Alas, his name never came up. Not surprising in retrospect, since most of our positions wanted some experience.

<comment><USER3> >One fellow in his late 40s was a security guard at the college, and so classes were inexpensive for him. He was particularly drawn to my class because there were a number of Perl related jobs in the area at the time.

>During my office hour after the class, we sometime chatted and I discovered that he had been working at a local manufacturing facility for almost 20 years. That facility had shut down some years earlier and all of the jobs moved overseas.

There is a concierge in my building who was the lead engineer in a textile factory for about 20 years back in Poland. When he immigrated to Canada, he was unable to transfer credentials and had to take the concierge job to make ends meet. He once said to me, "This job has turned out to be a lot less temporary than I hoped." He was only half-joking.

Seems like I meet a lot of middle-to-senior aged people in security in the same boat as him, which I find both fascinating and distressing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> My dad is a farmer, and he spends most his remaining years in front of a TV. How i wished i could teach him coding.. his body is almost done for when it comes to movement- but coding, that could be possible.

The problem is not the teaching- i could do that- its bringing someone back from a defeatist mindset. Whatever I do - the bank & robbers always win. How do you get that out of someones head?

</comment><comment><USER5> Once a primary school teacher of mine said, "If you are excellent in one language, you will be good in any other".

And being an Army guy already imparts a plenty of good qualities / habit. No matter they can learn anything they wish to.

</comment><comment><USER6> Forced sign up to Linkedin to read article.

Use archive.is

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey sorry, did not know about this. I will keep this in mind for future posts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Good to know there's still hope :)</comment>


Ask HN: Closed beta or release the product now? - <AUTHOR>

I'm working on a community generated media (images) website for a particular niche, that's almost ready for release (or beta testing). I've never launched a website which relies so  much on the creation of a very active community.
My current thought is that it would make sense to have a closed beta to begin with and actively recruit people who may be interested in participating, and then allow each  beta tester to invite a specified number of other people to the website.
There of course will be very little content and community interaction to begin with, and by making it a closed beta I'm thinking that early users won't be put off by that fact, as they understand it hasn't been released to the public and that they can have a role in shaping the community and the website. If I just release the thing now with little content and no community then it could just look like a failed website to anyone visiting.
Also, it seems that users would be more likely to invite others if it's a closed beta because it's a bit more exclusive.
Does this sound logical, or would it make more sense to release the website to the public right away? <comment><USER2> If you have no beta testers currently, I think it's unadvisable to open it up fully. Have a closed beta, get 50-100 people in there and get some feedback ASAP. Fix outstanding issues and then think about launching openly.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you think you have a great product and will surely hit the roof with traffic, an invite only service is recommended. Else, you might as well open it up now and see what happens.

</comment><comment><USER4> _If I just release the thing now with little content and no community then it could just look like a failed website..._

To paraphrase Twain [1], which would you rather do? Launch an open version of your website and let people _think_ that its userbase is too small? Or deliberately limit the size of the userbase and remove all doubt?

If the site is really not ready, you should recruit a handful of testers -- only five or six are necessary to tell you what you need to know. Otherwise you should just launch the darn thing. Actively recruiting people to help fill it up is still a good idea, but don't put some up some stupid barrier that prevents these people from inviting their friends, their friends' friends, and anyone else in the world. Don't worry, if (while?) the site sucks most people won't ever see it anyway.

[1]: <http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1098>

</comment><comment><USER5> I just went through this same questioning for a free tool for analyzing press releases (<http://www.pressreleasegrader.com>)

Based on this recent experience (and past experience), I generally lean towards just getting it out there and then iterating like hell.

Closed betas are nice to "control the flow", but most products don't have a "flood of traffic" problem, but a "nobody cares" problem.

Make it easy for people to try it out and give feedback, and respond swiftly to the feedback.

</comment><comment><USER6> Limiting te number of people each tester can invite seems silly if part of the goal is to generate content. You could even add a beta signup page so people could get in without an invite. They'd still understand that you were still building content that way.

</comment><comment><USER7> Closed releases seem to give you 2 chances at publicity (closed release, open release) to at least an immediate circle, which can't hurt</comment>


Lovefield – A relational database for web apps - <AUTHOR> https://google.github.io/lovefield/ <comment><USER2> From the first 1 minute and 15 seconds of the video:

> "With WebSQL being deprecated, and IndexedDB not providing structured > queries, web developers need a tool to satisfy their structured query > needs."

> "Web app developers need structured queries to work in the mobile world."

> "With IndexedDB ... there's a steeeep learning curve to make it useful for > your app. Moreover, IndexedDB does not provide structured queries."

> "IndexedDB does not offer structured query features, such as sorting by > multiple columns, or joining the results of multiple tables."

As someone that looked forward to WebSQL, this is painful to hear. Many of us realized the above from the beginning. Yet, some in the standards committee found a way to shoot down WebSQL, w/vague rationale such as "we don't feel it's the best path for the web".

Well, thank you. Instead of giving us one of the most well tested SQL implementations (SQL Lite) that addresses all of the above, and much more, we were shoved a harder to use, more verbose, and less powerful alternative (IndexedDB). And as a result, we're having to implement our own relational databases. In JavaScript. 4-5 years later.

No offense to Lovefield, but it represents everything wrong w/the decision to deprecate WebSQL and implement IndexedDB instead. It was also the single-most decision that made me lose faith in the standards committee.

<comment><USER3> > It was also the single-most decision that made me lose faith in the > standards committee.

When I try to think of any product or service born of a standards committee that has been wildly successful, I can't think of any.

Standards committees are useful if the goal is to bring consensus-driven stagnation (and standards), so that things can evolve around a group of products/services rather than just individual products/services. But, there have been extremely complicated standards like some of those from OASIS: [https://www.oasis-open.org/](https://www.oasis-open.org/) that made developers waste countless hours trying to adhere when a high level of complexity wasn't necessary. And even well-used standards like SQL have not moved quickly enough with the times, e.g. if you look at the differences between the major databases (PostgreSQL, Oracle, SQL Server, etc.), there are still many DB-specific features that could be standardized.

> Instead of giving us one of the most well tested SQL implementations (SQL > Lite) that addresses all of the above, and much more

I wish embedding PostgreSQL would get to the point that people would think of it before SQLite, especially in situations like this that are generic, because there is so much more that could be done with it. Here's one recent effort in Java: [https://github.com/yandex-qatools/postgresql- embedded](https://github.com/yandex-qatools/postgresql-embedded) and a slidedeck from a few years ago from the postgres lead at VMWare with that team's experience: [http://www.slideshare.net/jkshah/pg-conf- eu2013embedded](http://www.slideshare.net/jkshah/pg-conf-eu2013embedded)

<comment><USER4> > _When I try to think of any product or service born of a standards committee > that has been wildly successful, I can 't think of any._

He says in a post submitted over _HTTP_ , using _DNS_ for name lookup, _TCP_ for _OSI_ layer 3 transport, implemented in client software via _POSIX_ socket APIs, encapsulated in _IEEE 802.2_ frames traveling across _IEEE 802.3_ and _IEEE 802.11_ -defined physical mediums, routed by _BGP_ and maybe even some _OSPF_.

Come on. You really can't think of any?

<comment><USER5> Are _any_ of those except maybe 802.11 _born_ of a standards committee?

off the top of my head: HTTP came from CERN and w3c was years later; TCP is the _alternative_ to the stillborn OSI standard; POSIX is a relatively recent AT&T UNIX-clone standardization effort; Ethernet was from Xerox PARC (although most of a modern implementation is from the IEEE era)

<comment><USER4> What qualifies as "born"?

 _Successful_ standards committees are just a group of implementing industry members. WebSQL, for example, was edited by Ian Hickson.

The work almost _always_ predates the standards committee -- also just like WebSQL.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Another database which has similar characteristics (although not quite sql- like api's) that I've had a lot of luck with is [https://github.com/tonsky/datascript](https://github.com/tonsky/datascript). Bit of a tangent, but anyone looking for this kind of functionality might be interested.

</comment><comment><USER7> What is a browser database and what is it good for? Would you use one instead of a back-end DB or in conjunction with one? How? Why? Why is this on 1st page - what is cool about it?

I'm clearly missing something, but I can't be bothered to watch the videos - can someone TL;DR it for me, please.

<comment><USER8> It's like having PouchDB -> CouchDB but with SQL not NoSQL

For me I'd like to:

Firebase as backend. Sync user data to browser. Query user data elegantly in browser using select statements.

<comment><USER9> Better way to describe it was "like SQLite"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> What happens when the user opens two tabs, both of which try to access the same local database?

<comment><USER11> Disclosure: I'm the author of a competing JavaScript database ([http://gunDB.io/](http://gunDB.io/)).

Unfortunately concurrency is typically the last thing that people think about. Concurrency is the first thing we deal with in our database, because you are right, without it data gets corrupted.

<comment><USER10> So would it be possible to communicate between the two tabs, via the database? In an event-driven way?

<comment><USER11> Yes, although right now I am doing that with websockets which is silly for local stuff. We are wanting to add WebRTC as well, but we could also add what you are talking about - make an issue for it on the github (although it will probably be low priority)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Interesting. At first I was thinking this might be part of their cross- platform (iOS/Android/web) architecture that they use for Inbox, Sheets, and a few other things.

E.g. they assert that, despite having pure-native views (e.g. no Swing-style "one UI for all platforms"), they share ~70% of the client-side code across iOS/Android/web.

Which to me insinuates the reused code is probably things like the domain models, validation rules, and also online/offline data storage/sync logic.

E.g. maybe Lovefield was part of that cross-platform client-side storage architecture. But probably not since it's Javascript. (Which is fine, Google is a big place/lots of different apps/needs.)

<comment><USER13> iOS/Android have SQLLite, LoveField is kind of like an SQL-lite for the Web.

Your speculation isn't that far off.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is good for people used to sql but I personally find the way that IndexDB stores data to be superior. You just have to get used to the NoSQL way of persisting objects. Making one technology look like another is never efficient for an app.

</comment><comment><USER15> Would be interesting to compare it to AlaSQL ([https://github.com/agershun/alasql](https://github.com/agershun/alasql)).

</comment><comment><USER16> The api style looks very similar to JOOQ's one.

1: [http://www.jooq.org/doc/3.6/manual/sql-building/sql- statemen...](http://www.jooq.org/doc/3.6/manual/sql-building/sql- statements/dsl-and-non-dsl/)

</comment><comment><USER17> The whole saga is very sad. WebSQL was the right move all along. NoSQL turned out to be a fad and people really just want to use SQL to build real apps. Especially newbies, learning SQL is a lot easier than learning how to reimplement it's features on top of a document store.

</comment><comment><USER18> Lovefield is still relatively new and immature. When I tried to use it I ran into some strange errors. The situation might have improved now but I personally would still recommend PouchDB instead.

</comment><comment><USER19> Niiice... last time I tried to get something done with IndexedDB it was total pita. If this manages to take away even 20% of IndexedDB's pain, it's sure worth taking a look at!

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm not a web developer, but this looks great, I want to learn how SQL things work, maybe this is a good start for beginner ? BTW, speaker's face is too serious.

<comment><USER21> I would think you'd want to use a more mature/complete SQL database, with broader documentation and a larger community, to learn about SQL. MySQL or PostgreSQL, would be the obvious free choices. Unless you specifically want to learn about client-side browser-based SQL databases (which is a pretty specific niche of SQL database), in which case this would be interesting, but possibly not extremely relevant to development work you'd be doing _today_ , since it is so new.

<comment><USER20> But a more mature/complete SQL database mostly write in c/c++, and the old design is very complex and hard to change.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Then why did they killed websql in chrome packaged apps?

<comment><USER23> probably because websql was not accepted as a w3c standard. Browser vendors should not add tech that works only on their browser and are not on the path to standardization.

<comment><USER24> Yeah, that was a bummer situation.

The problem was that browser APIs require independent implementations to become standard. Chrome used SQLite for their WebSQL, which left Firefox without a good option. (Implementing a SQLite clone isn't feasible with their budget.) So, the standard was dropped.

It's a shame, because SQLite is a great tech.

<comment><USER25> Why couldn't Firefox use SQLite?

<comment><USER24> There's a W3C rule, that each browser needs their own implementation. If everybody uses the same code, it's considered a Monoculture security risk [1].

1\. [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/software_mono...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/software_monocu.html)

<comment><USER26> I wonder then how come so many browsers are allowed to be Webkit based

<comment><USER27> Browsers are "allowed" to do whatever they want, but the W3C is very unlikely to endorse some feature as a standard if Webkit is the only codebase that intends to implement it. Which is basically what happened with WebSQL.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> wow, the landing page of this web is really fast...

</comment><comment><USER29> This just goes to prove that what developers really want out of browsers is not a document viewer but a deployment platform. To go to these lengths, someone has to be very concerned about getting one set of code to run on practically any device. You don't otherwise end up with something like this.

This wouldn't have been possible without the work the Chromium team has done to achieve such complete compatibility between desktop and mobile versions. But unfortunately the browser is still stuck in the mentality that it's just a document viewer. I think we really need to wake up and make the browser into a proper deployment platform. I applaud efforts like this, even if I don't immediately have a need for such a thing, because they are doing the necessary work to push on browser developers to release the right features towards that goal.</comment>


Ask HN: College doesn't allow purchasing items with Sales Tax? - gjsman-1000 I am part of a Student Life club at a Community College, and proposed and won funding for a project. After winning funding, however, I learned that the school does not allow clubs to purchase anything that has sales tax on it. As far as I know the school is tax-exempt, but not even having the option to pay sales tax on an item?<p>Anyway, I am still working on the project, but am now concerned about finding places where I can buy parts without sales tax. Does anyone know what this might be about? <comment><AUTHOR> Ask if you can use the college's tax-exemption number for your purchases.</comment>


Interact with R from Python - <AUTHOR> http://www.daimi.au.dk/~besen/TBiB2007/lecture-notes/rpy.html <comment><USER2> This is cute, RPy is " _the simplest thing that can possibly work_ " (and it does!), and most of all, it's awesome to see an R story high on the front page of YC.news.

But I would encourage readers (of this article and of YC news) to try playing with R interactively, just like you should try using iPython+SciPy interactively, to realize the truly awesome power of the libraries+language in each case. Then you will know what can and cannot be done easily in each, and can use your code in the other (or C, or _shudder_ maybe even Java if necessary) to chink the gap. Both languages can play nice with C and Java, incidentally. But that's not the point -- let's look at an everyday situation.

For example -- I might like to do some dimensionality reduction on a high- dimensional dataset which is information-starved along some of the features that interest me (until I collapse it a little). Obviously, I'd like to read in the data (in as rich a form as possible), look at the combinations of dimensions that are most informative (probably via principal components analysis, aka PCA, but maybe I'd try some other techniques as well), plot them as predictors, and then perhaps use a bunch of resources on the Web to do some further annotation or testing and see how useful my pile of predictors is for various tasks. Off the top of my head, here is what I'd think of doing:

1) depending on the nature of the data, parse it in either R or Python, and bind it into a dataframe (sort of a fancy matrix) or list of dataframes so I can manipulate it in R.

2) almost certainly I'd do the PCA and other EDA in R, due to the sheer power and variety of packages available for this sort of task in the R environment. There are lots of libraries available for this sort of thing in Python, too, but if you have a wild hair up your ass to try some revolutionary technique that you saw in _Bioinformatics_ or _Genetic Epi_ (or whatever), yesterday, odds are that it was released as an R package.

3) Most likely I'd plot the correspondences for each predictor with responses I care about in R, maybe with GGobi if I had to deal with time series or high- dimensional plots. Not that Python can't do an awesome job, but hey, we're already in R so let's get this over with, shall we?

4) I'd probably want to use the results in Python for web- or database-backed inquiries, because R's DBI packages sort of suck. Maybe I'd save entire dataframes to MySQL or SQLite or what have you, and then retrieve them in Python to monkey around with the results (or use a stripped-down algorithm based on my R results to implement the 'app' version in Python, because eventually I'll bet we put this behind Django anyways...). But Python for sure if it's ever going to talk to Windows or the Web. Like, duh, _rite_?

So the point here is that it pays to have a couple of sharp tools lying around when your interesting problem shows up and starts flopping around on your desk. Don't be like the RDBMS guys who try and drive every damned screw with a filigreed hammer!

Hope this gets one or a few people to try R (on its own) and then stick it in their utility belt for later use.</comment>


Microsoft Vulnerability group (MSVR) in Google Hall-of-Fame for bug55745 - <AUTHOR> http://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/hall-of-fame

<comment><USER2> Unsurprising; both companies are heavily invested in web infrastructure security, both companies have many tens of full-time people working on vulnerability research.

kuzzcc, wushi, and Sergey Glazunov though; man, those guys must be machines.</comment>


Snapchat is building the same kind of API that just got Facebook into trouble - <AUTHOR> https://www.recode.net/2018/3/27/17170552/snapchat-api-data-sharing-facebook <comment><USER2> Just an assumption, but based on Snap's core product and business model, this is probably more of a SSO "sign in with Snapchat" kinda situation.</comment>