Linus Torvalds Has Changed His Mind About Gnome 3 - <AUTHOR> https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dqYoR

<comment> old-gregg Ignore the blogspam, here's the original Linus post: [https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dq...](https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dqYoR)

<comment><USER2> ? The link above goes right to the google plus post also. (Did it originally not?)

<comment> old-gregg No, the original link was to a shady fake "news" site with zero original content which basically contained copy&pasted Linus post peppered with a ton of ads. The green clowns below probably have something to do with it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm the odd man out because I use Gnome 3 daily (on Debian unstable) and I haven't noticed any decrease in productivity... There are certainly some areas to improve, but it's nice, works well and it looks pretty. That said, I do look forward to the extensions...

</comment><comment><USER4> I just tried gnome-shell and so far I liked it. With xorg-edgers ppa and bleeding nouveau drivers, it is smooth and fast on my aging laptop.

Granted, I spend most of my time in terminal and use GUI to launch Chrome, Thunderbird and GIMP (mostly via Alt-F1 and typing name of app), but still, I like it so far.

On a new laptop I plan to try again KDE (after 1 year working in gnome) just to see how far it went, but I strongly advise anyone on Ubuntu 11.10 at least try gnome-shell - it is so easy, so you will not waste much time if you not like it.

<comment><USER5> I prefer super key the Alt+F*, less labor, and faster and easy to notice the input area than KDE Alt+F2 like.

I have used to move mouse on screen up-left corner to see the windows thumbnails view. then the windows became hard to distinquish. On KDE, they have diffrent size or shape, and icons over the thumbnails.GNOME has the same size and shape, and the window's name is too small to read.

the sidebar, the dock whatever, useless to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't know why people even bother with environments like KDE or GNOME. Go for something like Xfce or LXDE and you'll have a DE that gets the job done and won't suddenly decide one day to change everything. Any sort of productivity gained from the new "desktop paradigms" is lost to the bikeshedding that inevitably accompanies these changes.

</comment><comment><USER7> That page had a 100% crash rate for me when scrolling down in safari iPhone ios5 - impressive!

<comment><USER8> I wonder if Safari on iOS could recognize Google+ URLs just like it does with YouTube, and open them in the native app.

<comment><USER9> The Google+ app could register it's own url scheme, and then the Google+ website can UA-sniff for iOS and redirect to the special url scheme.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> That's not "changed his mind", that's "found ways to route around the braindamage with unofficial things the GNOME 3 'designers' won't accept".

<comment><USER8> Ah, yes, that must be why GNOME hosts an extensions gallery for the shell: <https://extensions.gnome.org/>

Also, nice calling the work of others "brain damage" when they really try to improve the state of desktop usability. Granted, not every of the concepts is brilliant, but if you don't try, we'll be stuck in Windows 95 concepts forever

<comment><USER11> The problem is that Gnome authors didn't gave a chance to try -- they've just made a beta version lacking most functionality of the previous incarnations and shipped it along with all problems of fresh version of Gtk and systemd saying "Look how we've made Gnome better!". No wonder almost everybody hated this almost instantly.

<comment><USER12> systemd is not part of GNOME

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Guess I'm just not ready to leave the task bar behind.

<comment><USER14> I'm waiting for alt+tab to be changed to window-based (without application grouping).

<comment><USER15> Install gnome-shell-extension-alternate-tab.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> nothing beats Window Maker.</comment>


Skimping on sleep makes your brain crave sweets - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/10/here-s-how-skimping-sleep-can-change-your-appetite <comment><USER2> I wondered if there was a connection between sleep and sweet food. I've had trouble sleeping for over a decade and also have a craving for sweet foods. I try to avoid them but I just feel even more tired.</comment>


At Home in the Liminal World - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/30/identity/at-home-in-the-liminal-world-rp <comment><USER2> interesting read. resonates with a lot of experiences i've had recently.</comment>


Apple files motion to intervene in Lodsys case - <AUTHOR> http://moconews.net/article/419-apple-wants-to-take-the-bite-out-of-lodsys-suit/

<comment><USER2> Article based on [http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/apple-enters-fray- ag...](http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/06/apple-enters-fray-against- lodsys-files.html) already submitted by Florian as <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2640134>

</comment><comment><USER3> The lord of the manor defends the serfs. That has always been the deal.

Good to see Apple stepping up into the role they've defined for themselves.

<comment><USER4> The lord of the manor defends his fiefdom, or else his knights, retainers, and vassals start wondering if he's cut out for the job.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This seems like very good news. Apple should throw a few tens of millions at this. Think of it; if Apple could somehow manage to kill patent trolling and deter it in the future, that could be of as much benefit to the computing world as iCloud, iOS and the iPad put together.

<comment><USER6> You know there's something wrong with your perspective when you think that iCloud, iOS and the iPad put together are more beneficial to the computing world than eliminating patent trolling.

<comment><USER7> I don't know why this was greyed out so I am lending my support for it here.

Patent trolling is a massive issue and stifles innovation as we can clearly see.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Apple's position is quite compelling, considering the amount of control they exert on app developers, the iOS ecosystem, and the app approval process.

<comment><USER9> It actually makes sense for them to defend the developers: after all, would you work in an ecosystem where you can get sued at any time without being protected by said ecosystem's owner?

<comment><USER10> That's a little to generic. You can still be sued for infringing on a patent in your software and Apple won't care at all. The reason Apple cares here is that developers are being sued for using _Apple's_ APIs and developers have no choice but to use those.

If Apple doesn't succeed in the courtroom, I can't imagine them having any choice but to lay down a significant amount of money to either get a license that covers the app developers or to buy Lodsys outright.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The patent in question[1] is far from a clear case of infringement. The closest thing is Apple's app-rating system. And even in that case, there are clear cases where the patent's claims do not hold water (Claims #5, #6, etc)

That said, I'm glad Apple is moving in. There's no way a small indie developer can even begin to mount a defense.

[1] ([http://www.google.com/patents/about/7222078_Methods_and_syst...](http://www.google.com/patents/about/7222078_Methods_and_systems_for_gatherin.html?id=nA2AAAAAEBAJ))</comment>


CouchDB retrospective - <AUTHOR> http://groups.google.com/group/tumbolia/browse_thread/thread/4a5e8ed2cf064b7b

<comment><USER2> The Steward concept is pertinent to the discussion around HN's current growing pains</comment>


Sweden To Charge TV Tax For Anyone With A Computer or Tablet - <AUTHOR> http://www.arcticstartup.com/2013/01/23/sweden-to-charge-tv-tax-for-anyone-with-a-computer-or-tablet <comment><USER2> Norwegian here, our National Broadcaster is planning to introduce the same here. Here's a story from today about it (in Norwegian): [http://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Norge-vurderer-TV- lisens-p...](http://www.aftenposten.no/digital/Norge-vurderer-TV-lisens-pa- mobiler-og-PC-er-7099723.html)

I'm fine with a TV-license fee, but if they're going to charge it for everyone who owns either a tablet, cellphone, computer or TV (which is basically 99,9% of households) they might just abandon their massive fee bureacracy and get the money through the government budget instead. It'll save a lot of money, especially if everyone is basically forced into paying it (regardless if they actually own a television set or not) anyway.

<comment> chestnut-tree How do Norwegians feel about the cost of their licence fee? Are people generally happy with the quality of output and services provided by the publicly-funded broadcaster?

I'm in the UK, and the BBC licence fee is approx 175 euros. Germany, Norway, Sweden and Denmark all have more expensive license fees. Obviously, the UK has a much larger population than Norway, Sweden or Denmark so the BBC gets more revenue.

Generally speaking, there is broad support for the BBC license fee. Given the BBC's long history, many people in the UK see them as a cultural institution rather just a broadcaster - which may sound strange to people outside the UK. Of course there are plenty of people who dislike the BBC in the UK. And then there are lots of people who like the BBC but are irritated by many of its programmes or behaviour.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Germany had this for some years. The fee is almost the same as in Sweden. I feel ripped off by this, its a remainder of a time when TV-Broadcasting was still so expensive that only public founded institutions could provide it. These ages are long gone. Until beginning of this year it was actually relatively easy to avoid paying it. You just did never answer one of their letters and took care who you opened the door. Now its tax-like for every household. What disgusts me most there is almost no control over the budgets they just collect whatever they want. The politicians that are assigned to the advisory board do nothing, cause they fear bad publicity by the channels (and also want to secure some well paying jobs for friends).

<comment><USER4> We also have it hear in Denmark. It's called »medielicens« and technically not a tax, but a licence fee (BBC subscribers will understand). It is also required even if you do not use any of DR's services (DR being 'Danish Broadcasting'), but own any form of media device. Most people I know do not pay it, however.

<comment><USER5> Wait what? How do you not pay it? Just throw out the bills they send you?

<comment><USER4> Since they are not the government, they cannot legally gain entrance to your property (actually, neither can the government without a warrant, but they _cannot_ get a warrant either). They send you a letter, asking you to sign up to pay the media licence or sign a declaration that you own no such devices.

The declaration - however - is legally binding and there are huge fines for breaking such a declaration. However, they must be able to prove that you _do_ actually have such devices, by entering your property. In most cases, they don't really bother, though.

<comment><USER5> Seems like this could get me in trouble. Also I don't remember signing any document I just started receiving the bills. I live in a dormitory so maybe that somehow affects the issue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> You don't want to watch TV ?

We don't care. We will make you, whether you want it or not.

And we will charge you for the privilege - having to subsidize the things you dislike, what a cool idea.

(I guess I would have to give up my computers if I lived in Sweden)

EDIT: Downvoted already? Whatever. I will not willingly subsidize government propaganda.

<comment><USER7> There are those who really believe that because something is funded by taxes, that it will be impartial. By this thinking, the old Radio Moscow was perfectly legit. After all, it was free of corporate influence, and the need to cater to advertisers. I wouldn't doubt that some of the same people would like Pravda-style, government-funded newspapers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's not a tax. It's a fee, required to pay by law to fund independent channels of opinion free from government and/or private funded influence.

200 eur a year is quite cheap for what you get.

<http://www.radiotjanst.se/en/Radio-and-TV-fee/>

<comment><USER9> Unless you have no interest in watching the programs. Then it's horribly expensive

<comment><USER10> The point is that you in theory (!!!) get media this way that do not depend on advertisement and are thus more independent from industry influence. This in turn leads to you being able to profit from this _even_ if you do not watch the programs and/or listen to the radio, simply because this injects a different kind of media into the media landscape which in turn other media interact with (newspapers, websites, blogs etc. etc.).

Whether this works in _practise_ is up for debate and subject to opinion, but I do think that the general idea is commendable.

<comment><USER11> > The point is that you in theory (!!!) get media this way that do not depend > on advertisement and are thus more independent from industry influence.

Instead you get a media-station which is entirely dependent on continued blessing from the government. So much better.

That severely limits how impartial it gets to be, and the similar system we have in Norway has consistently proven to provide media-coverage leaning further to the left than the general population does.

It's not a disaster by any means, but I wouldn't argue it's "impartial" either. And I can definitely see why some people would chose not to fund it if given the option.

<comment><USER10> Again, I see the overall goal as having a balanced _media system_. I wrote in a reply further down about the same thing. A balanced system does not mean each element has to be balanced (or "impartial"). A government-funded media station still counteracts a commercially funded media outlet on a much more fundamental functional basis than just political ideology.

Both public and private media are in my opinion necessary parts of an overall functioning and thus independent media system. This system, like _every_ complex system, is only able to achieve "impartiality" from a certain point of observation, in this case that of the comparing listener/reader/viewer basing judgement on multiple outlets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> We have this tax in Germany as well. They just don't call it a tax, but every household and company has to pay 216 Euro/year.

They used to bind it to having a computer/radio/tv/mobile phone (with radio/internet) but now you even have to pay if you don't own any of those.

<comment><USER13> Same here in Italy. Here they tax for any apparatus that is meant or adaptable to receive tv or radio signals. So basically anything with a graphical display.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think it is only a matter of time before the UK moves to something like this. We have TV licensees to fund the BBC but with more and more of the content that they produce being available on-line though iPlayer things will have to change. I believe the BBC's charter is up for renegotiation in about four years and it would be the perfect time to make the change.

<comment><USER15> I actually think this is pretty reasonable - everybody I know consumes BBC content in some form (most of them without paying the license fee) and it's a small price to pay for the presence of an impartial news source.

<comment><USER16> I'd have to agree.

We don't watch live to air anymore, but we do use the heck out of iPlayer.

When it came around to renewing the license a few months ago, we made the conscious decision to renew it, even though we legally didn't need to (no sat receiver, no aerial).

I know a lot of people will call us stupid for doing so, but I'm also convinced that the BBC will lobby (or whatever they need to do) for changes to the licensing laws once the UK officially is out of the economic danger zone.

<comment><USER17> > I know a lot of people will call us stupid for doing so, but I'm also > convinced that the BBC will lobby (or whatever they need to do) for changes > to the licensing laws once the UK officially is out of the economic danger > zone.

I'm not entirely sure where you've got this idea from, but you do realise that the bulk of the BBC's funding comes from the licence fee[1], and that TVL (the organisation that sends nasty letters through the post if you don't have TV[2]) is part of the BBC[3], right?

[1] - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_Uni...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom#Licence_fee_expenditure)

[2] - <http://www.bbctvlicence.com/>

[3] - <http://www.televisionlicence.info/tvl/who>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> You must pay for the right to receive electromagnetic waves which are passing through your body 24/7, whether you like it or not.

Seems legit.

<comment><USER19> Swede here.

The money goes towards radio and television that is free from political influence, and also free from ads. It is like a tax for something most people benefit greatly from. It has nothing to do with the medium it is broadcasted through.

<comment><USER20> > The money goes towards radio and television that is free from political > influence [...]

The public TV stations depend more on politicians than any commercial media company, because it's the politicians that write the laws that dictate how much money they get, or if they should even receive any money in the first place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Welcome to the club, dear Swedes!

The average German household will pay 215,76 Euro (~290 USD) for "receiving" (whether you have a device or not) government-run TV and radio programs.

In contrast, the same household will pay 786,56 Euro (~1050 USD) for National Defence.

Obviously watching football (the real one, my American friends) is almost as important as living in a free country

<comment><USER22> > football (the real one, my American friends _[1]_ )

[1] <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4msKdfMtGY>

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> The Swiss do the same ("Billag") to the tune of 460 CHF per year for radio and tv. I basically see it as a tax for a public system as there seems absolutely no way of wiggling your way out of it. E.g even if you don't have kids, you will also pay for public schooling.

</comment><comment><USER24> Just a sidenote. The fact that it's a fee instead of tax means that the government cannot change how much money SVT should receive. This means that journalists are not controlled by neither politicians or companies. This means that we have real journalism and free media. And I find that awesome =)

<comment><USER20> > The fact that it's a fee instead of tax means that the government cannot > change how much money SVT should receive.

What do you mean? Politicians can change any law they wish. Unless it's in violation of the constitution. And I don't think withdrawing mandatory financial support to public broadcasting is prohibited in many constitutions.

<comment><USER24> They cannot do that during one period. They can only suggest such change and then the next elected government can approve it. This way the people will always be able to vote against such government. And I really doubt any party would suggest any drastic change on this topic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Sweden: socialism. Check!

</comment><comment><USER26> How is the tax actually/to be charged though?

<comment><USER27> If I'm understanding it correctly, there's already a TV license in place that households pay. This update just means if your house doesn't have a TV, and instead consumes all media on a tablet or similar device, you still need to pay the fee, where as before you could argue you didn't need to pay it for lack of a TV.

<comment><USER28> Correct. Communism at its finest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Does this not turn it into a poll tax?

</comment><comment><USER30> You are forced to fund a propaganda box. Dear god. And some people consider this a norm(and even a good thing).

Of course entity that is dependent on public funding will protect its image, will fight for its long lasting survivability and lobby to enforce its funding by law.

ze irony.

<comment><USER31> On the other hand: TV programs break off every 15 minutes (or more) for various corporations to assault your eyes and ears with messages crafted to make you want to buy their rubbish. And many people consider this a norm.

Of course, an entity that is dependent on these commercial interests won't want to upset them too much, in case they take their advertising elsewhere.

Brit here: having a publicly funded broadcaster (that's required to act impartially) _in addition_ to commercial media is very much a good thing.

<comment><USER7> All of that advertising still boils down to choice. I can refuse to purchase the goods that they're constantly peddling. The system is voluntary. Meanwhile, I cannot refuse the taxes/fees that the government decides to levy. In my own country (Canada), I am taxed for CBC whether I wish to watch/listen or not.

<comment><USER30> Essentially it boils down to "we as a government can't trust you, so we have to enforce these laws and you must comply or else you will face our enforcers".

Sadly, choice of 3 men overwrites choice of 3 million.

Trust is lacking, not only between governing body and sheep, but between sheep also, when sheep will start trusting each other, it will reflect on governing body.

<comment><USER7> >Essentially it boils down to "we as a government can't trust you, so we have to enforce these laws and you must comply or else you will face our enforcers".

That's really the essence of everything that the government does.

>Trust is lacking, not only between governing body and sheep, but between sheep also, when sheep will start trusting each other, it will reflect on governing body.

I think that people still tend to trust their governing body, though it obviously never trusts its own population. In countries with elections, the sacrament of voting is still observed by large numbers of people. But I think that apathy and pessimism is growing, but I see that as a good thing; you can see there is a concern, when governments begin to discuss or even enact mandatory voting laws. Then the sacrament becomes more than "duty", it becomes another act of coercion, like most of what government does.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Enjoy your taxes Sweden. I hope it's worth it.</comment>


Mystery of Black Holes "Solved" - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7574255.stm

<comment><USER2> Am I the only one who laments the days when BBC headlines weren't as overstated as the average tabloid?

<comment><USER3> The actual headline:

Black hole star mystery 'solved'</comment></comment>


Google acquires drawElements - <AUTHOR> http://drawelements.com/ <comment><USER2> All I see is the Cobra MK III that constitute their logo.</comment>


Ask HN: Software/technology Startup lawyers in San Diego - <AUTHOR>

I've recently moved to San Diego and I am looking for startup lawyers in the area to work with. My co-founders and I are looking to incorporate in the near future. It will be a fairly standard incorporation package but I'm truly starting from scratch with relationships down here.<p>Thanks in advance for any references, advice, or information. <comment><USER2> One of the best tech minds and lawyers I know: [http://bradykrissesq.com/](http://bradykrissesq.com/)

Don't be thrown by the references to MA, she's been in CA for the past couple years and is within a couple hours of you, I believe, so wouldn't be horrible to meet in the middle for a face-to-face if need be.

Good luck!</comment>


I was wrong - Snowden is no traitor - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-edward-snowden-is-no-traitor/2013/10/21/f9d2ae5a-3a74-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html

<comment><USER2> we can only ask the author of this article if he has ever heard of Halliburton and if so, why he would have ever gone down the Cheney garden path in the first place</comment>


Show HN: Jargonaut – get your team speaking the same language - <AUTHOR> https://app.jargonaut.net <comment><AUTHOR> After noticing that the growing number of people at my day job seemed to be using our internal jargon differently, I decided to write a team glossary using confluence. The experience left me wanting. No crosslinking of terms, no enforcement of structure/format. Ugly/outdated styling.

I thought there had to be a better way, but I couldn't find one so I built Jargonaut. It helps you build a nice, crosslinked list of terms/definitions, and provides simple slack integrations to allow you to pull in a definition into slack.

I have lots of ideas to add more value, but I want to get a feeling from others on whether you would use such a specialized tool instead of your bog standard wiki. Would you consider parting with money for it for your team?</comment>


Ramanujan graphs in cryptography [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/593.pdf <comment><USER2> While far from the current state of the art of practical cryptography, I have a very soft spot for "theoretically constructed" cryptographic hash functions.

I've encountered SWIFFT (which uses a lattice SVP), and some based on classic number theoretic functions (DLP).

Walks on expander graphs for cryptographic hashes are new for me. I'd seen them for applications in randomness extraction, but their application to cryptographic hashing really, really beautifully links well known graph problems (cycle finding and path finding) to collision and pre-image attacks.

This isn't exactly what the paper is about (just the introductory material)... but something I felt moved to say. Hopefully someday we find very efficient expander graph constructs, because of how incredibly useful they continue to be in the theory.</comment>


Show HN: CronToday write, save, and read later anything - <AUTHOR> CronToday is an easy way to write, save, and read later anything. It can send a daily email to help you write more.
The origin I all began when Paul Graham sent a tweet:
@paulg. Jan 13:
"Is there an easy way to build, or a startup that offers, something that will email you once a day asking 'What's happening?' and then accumulate the replies?
We once funded a startup that did this, and it left a hole in my life when it shut down."
At first, I thought: that is interesting. I could build that. But in a few minutes, there were a lot of people that make suggestions for other products that could do something similar. So, probably the problem is already solved and forgot about it.
But in the next days, I keep on thinking about that. I would like to use a site like the one that Paul Graham described. So, I went back to that tweet and checked all the solutions that the people gave. Most of them were not exactly what Paul Graham explained and what I need. All of them were quite complicated and I did not like the look and feel. So, I decided to build it for myself.
More details at www.CronToday.com/about
Tell me more how this app can help you better. Be part of the building process: firstname.lastname@example.com
https://www.CronToday.com <comment><USER2> Posts without URLs get penalized, so you'd be better off posting this with a link, then adding your text as a first comment in the new thread. Good luck!

(Also, please use "Show HN" rather than "Launch HN".)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you dang. Sorry, I am new here. I am very open to any suggestion. Thank you.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: what do you do when you're unstimulated at work? - <AUTHOR>

Say, for instance, you feel unchallenged at work, and there isn't much in the way of new feature or project work? <comment><USER2> One of my favorite things is to automate something. I feel like I'm giving away a personal productivity secret here. I suspect many people do this but not to the extent I do.

I can spend, for example, an hour automating something that would take ten minutes to do manually. To some people who don't think it through, this would seem like a waste. But that ten minute task might get repeated, so it's often a net win.

But taking a devil's advocate position, let's say the task only gets repeated three times, ever. So (ignoring off by one errors in my accounting) let's say when all is said and done I end up spending 30 more minutes, total, over the course of my lifetime, on that task. Sounds like a losing proposition, right?

I would argue even if the tasks are never repeated enough times to make up the time spent automating them (though many are), this expenditure of time is still worth it in a whole-picture assessment because at the end I have:

\- New code snippets I can use for other things

\- Increased understanding of the problem space and how to model it.

\- Learned and refreshed knowledge of some coding techniques.

\- A new tool under my control, which I can tweak and extend in any way I want.

\- A good productive feeling and a clear conscience about my time.

\- Fewer mistakes, and no learning curve, when I repeat the task.

And then... if not that, there's always refactoring legacy code ;-).

<comment><AUTHOR> Great idea, especially since everyone always seems too busy to fix an easily automatible task!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I would develop skills, or look for opportunities to gain additional training.

</comment><comment><USER4> I try and solve a problem or two on Project Euler.

</comment><comment><USER5> Have you heard of this thing called the Internet?</comment>


P4: a high-level language for programming protocol-independent packet processors - <AUTHOR> http://p4.org/?hn <comment><USER2> P4 has been really interesting for a while. Barefoot networks is where the author of the paper went, and they've been working on an ASIC for some time.

People are also building compilers for P4 that are targeting other runtimes like BPF. Recently, there's been an effort to run a subset of BPF on hardware (NPF?).

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought 'perforce' when I saw the headline. Perforce is something I'm stuck with at my current job, unfortunately.

<comment><USER4> Agreed. P4 is synonymous for Perforce. Did the project authors not do a cursory google first?

As for "unfortunately", what don't you like about it, apart from it not being what you're used to from elsewhere? I've used Visual Sourcesafe, Perforce and git, and Perforce seems like a perfectly decent source control system.

However, I won't deny that it would be nice to be able to manage multiple revisions locally so that I can explore different approaches and easily backtrack without having to commit to the central server.

<comment><USER3> The company I work at has Perforce tied to a homegrown code review tool that really makes it painful to use and in reality that's my main gripe with having to use it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This looks really cool. Has anyone here done anything with it?

<comment><USER6> It's pretty cool. I built a lexer/parser for the p4 language in Lua, with the intention of then building a "runtime" for it out of the Snabb networking toolkit (amusingly, I also finished most of a p4 lexer/parser in Elixir before switching to Lua).

I don't think be able to build a full p4 implementation with Snabb running as a substrate (although it's been 6 months since I last worked on it, and am blanking at the moment why not), but I think it could get pretty close. But it will be a ton of work if I get around to it, plus I don't have much experience doing networking programming at this low of a level. I got a bit distracted with work and other obligations, but I hope to pick it back up soon, particularly if p4 is finally starting to get some well-deserved attention.

p4 is an awesome idea, and solves a lot of the problems OpenFlow was running into with having to constantly update the spec for new network protocols. With p4, that's just a software update, not a protocol update. It has some other neat features as well, but unfortunately it doesn't seem as though p4 has yet caught on like OpenFlow did, even though it has many of the same people behind it as OpenFlow.

Some of the cool things that people have done with p4:

[https://2016p4workshop.sched.org/info](https://2016p4workshop.sched.org/info)

<comment><USER7> I'm hesitant to pick up another network protocol after OpenFlow. Lots of vendors claimed to support it, but only a handful took an honest shot at a decent implementation.

<comment><USER6> Just to be clear, p4 isn't actually a network protocol. It's a programming language, a DSL for programming network protocols. Small but significant difference between the two. But you're correct that it will require native support among router/switch vendors to be worth using.

Actually, p4 is aimed a solving a lot of the problems with OpenFlow that led to the situation you describe: incomplete support by vendors of all the different versions of OpenFlow. That's because each individual network protocol supported had to be written into the OpenFlow spec, thus the proliferation of versions. Whereas with p4, the vendors basically just provide a hardware runtime for the p4 language, and you install whichever protocols you wish to support (or write it yourself, if it's custom or new). It also has the potential to work very well with a scaled-down version of OpenFlow.

I'm not an SDN expert and am probably not doing justice to p4 with my description above, but it is important to realize this isn't just another network protocol. It would be like describing the Python or JS as just another program (the interpreter), and not as a program capable of running other programs.

<comment><USER7> Yes, thanks for the corrections you are absolutely correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Does this support IPTables as a target?

</comment><comment><USER9> I'd love to write my IPTables config like that!

</comment><comment><USER10> mininet, which this project uses, appears to be written only for linux?

is this project linux only?

<comment><USER11> To be fair, I can't think of another OS that directly supports the things Mininet wants to do. To make it work on other platforms, they'd first have to implement those from scratch there.

Does FreeBSD nowadays provide some form of network isolation like it is available with Linux network namespaces? Nothing relevant shows up in the likely places, so I don't think it does.

<comment><USER12> there are vnet jails that behave similarly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> totally off the subject: when I saw that logo, this was all I could think of:

[http://bignum.sourceforge.net/primebear.html](http://bignum.sourceforge.net/primebear.html)</comment>


Content scraper (based on Readability) in Python - <AUTHOR> http://www.lispcast.com/projects/content-scraper-based-on-readability-in-python/

<comment><USER2> Not tried that script but this should be cool. Would be nice to make some program based on this script to fetch full content of news posted on ycombinator :)</comment>


Logitech keyboards and mice vulnerable to extensive cyber attacks - <AUTHOR> https://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Logitech-keyboards-and-mice-vulnerable-to-extensive-cyber-attacks-4464533.html <comment><USER2> > CVE-2019-13053, an attacker can inject any keyboard input into the encrypted > radio traffic of the Unifying keyboards without knowing the crypto key used. > To do this, the attacker only needs to have temporary access to the keyboard > in order to press some keys.

or you know, ask the nice bank lady to type this "magic key combination" for you. Yes darling my name is little bobby tables.

>CVE-2019-13052 is not being addressed either. The attacker can decrypt the encrypted communication between the input devices if he has recorded the pairing process.

Oh dear, did the keyboard I am currently jamming stopped working? I have same model! my son/nephew told me you need to pair them. Ill just sit here patiently while you do that.

<comment><USER3> > CVE-2019-13053

Is there a word for this type of exploit: I wrap a bicycle in wrapping paper. You don't need to take off the wrapping paper to know that what it covered was a bike.

That's pretty much what this exploit is, no? You press a key on a keyboard, it sends a radio signal. If I know what key you pressed, I can associate that key press with the "shape" of the signal.

<comment><USER2> known plaintext attack

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is actually interesting from the perspective of fairness in e-sports. It's been rumoured that professional players could "cheat on LAN" by side- loading cheat software through modified hardware supplying custom 'drivers'.

If the hardware itself has vulnerabilities it could be used to mask the cheat loading and make it harder for the host PCs to detect if any of that side- loading is happening.

</comment><comment><USER5> Anybody know of secure alternatives?

It seems these wireless keyboards are all made as cheaply as possible. Microsoft advertises "AES security" for their wireless keyboards and mice, with a pre-paried USB dongle. But since they run on 27 MHz via a custom USB dongle I assume it's a proprietary protocol (and therefore likely quite insecure). Bluetooth might be a bit better but still has limited range for conference-room use.

</comment><comment><USER6> Requiring physical access to the keyboard by the attacker first, makes this less impactful.

With physical access the they keyboard/computer, they could plant any other number of devices/bugs or extract information.

<comment><USER7> Once you are at physical access, you can go to town. Optical surveillance and even recording the sound of the keys being stroked to calibrate[0] an acoustic cryptoanalysis algorithm.[1]

[0] [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/09/snooping_on_t...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/09/snooping_on_tex.html) [new algorithms require less time]

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_cryptanalysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_cryptanalysis)</comment></comment>


Amazon employee attempted suicide after being put on improvement plan - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employee-attempted-suicide-from-12-story-building-at-seattle-headquarters-2016-11 <comment><USER2> You can also try this [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/korean-mock- funerals_us_...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/korean-mock- funerals_us_566eda18e4b0e292150e73d2)

</comment><comment><USER3> I think Foxconn has some building nets for sale.</comment>


Forget Epsilon, Fear the Angry Bird - <AUTHOR> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/forget-epsilon-fear-angry-bird-042611

<comment><USER2> If you read the details on the WSJ site, it doesn't sound nearly as nefarious as the author of this article seems to think. For example, Angry Birds (<http://blogs.wsj.com/wtk-mobile/2010/12/17/angry-birds/>):

"User allowed the app to transmit a username/password for the Crystal game network to Crystal; allowed app to see location; and allowed app to search contacts for friends."

It doesn't sound as though any of this is happening without the explicit permission of the user.

<comment><USER3> Analytics packages generally rely on either the application's terms of service or the platform's overarching terms of service, so I wouldn't say 'explicit permission' in all cases. The user likely 'agreed' without reading it.

That said, there's a complete difference between what's actually done with this sort of data and what this guy (or the WSJ) thinks is being done with the data.

In the case of analytics software, things like the phone's location and language settings are used to produce an aggregated breakdown of usage by country, useful for localizing your content and staffing customer support. The phone ID, after being run through a one-way hashing function, is used to provide an aggregated unique user number - since the correlation between downloads and actual active users is pretty weak. There's no user-level records and best practices around data retention are followed.

Oh, the horror.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agreed. There is also a difference between security conscious people like us giving "explicit permission" and common user (who greatly outnumber us) handing out permissions like they're going out of style.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I installed the firewall app from the Cydia store on my jailbroken iPhone. It is pretty impressive just how many apps want to contact various parties to report would-be irrelevant info on your phone. Assault on privacy indeed.

I did notice that Angry Birds, and offline game, sure wanted to send a lot of data out for no apparent reason.

It seems like there is a new business model reflected by a subset of the app store catalog that just intends to serve as a cheap/free distraction for the user, with the real goal of raiding as much data as possible.

<comment><USER5>
        It seems like there is a new business model reflected by a subset of the app store catalog that just intends to serve as a cheap/free distraction for the user, with the real goal of raiding as much data as possible.

Otherwise known as the facebook app business model.</comment></comment>


My advice after interviewing 100 software engineers - <AUTHOR> https://firstname.lastname@example.com/my-advice-after-interviewing-100-software-engineers-e34bc3cbc669 <comment> Pick-A-Hill2019 [Edit to say. My bad, should have checked the submission history of submitter prior to commenting but will leave comment up as per the unspoken rules of editing a comment since my initial reaction was as below].

After reading [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24164470](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24164470) (about a GPT-3 created blog article reaching the front page of HN) and reading the submitted article (and trying to parse some of it) I'm genuinely not certain if I'm playing 'Where's Waldo' or if the various at times awkward phrasing is simply a case of E.S.L (English as Second Language) or lack of proof-reading.

Not a dig, I am 100% uncertain if GPT-3 generated this article or not.</comment>


DeepMind Achieves Human Level Performance in Quake III Arena Capture the Flag - <AUTHOR> https://deepmind.com/blog/capture-the-flag-science/ <comment><USER2> This is pretty amazing. One thing I wondered is if this is a glorified aim bot, but it's a "tag" version of CTF so that's less of a factor plus they reduced the reaction time of bots. It also takes raw pixel input so it's not gaining an advantage by having an altered game model. However, sounds like the bots didn't receive sound input, which could be a human advantage (e.g. hearing footsteps of a non-visible player behind a wall).

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054150](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20054150)</comment>


Comparing GTD, "Never read email in the morning" and "The 4-hour work week" - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/magazine/17-01/mf_self_help

<comment><USER2> dupe <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=407674></comment>


Ask HN: My laptop has a bios level keylogger my security is at threat help - <AUTHOR>

I have the following laptop - http://www8.hp.com/in/en/ad/ultrabooks/intel.html
I have been encountering suspicious activities and private data getting out.
It has been informed to me that,its either a bios level keylogger or a virus that catches your camera is creating trouble for me.
I searched the net, could not help myself. I formatted the laptop, scanned bios still things are not safe.
Please help! <comment><USER2> Note: The title of this article is most likely misleading.

Please post some detailed analyiys of what's going on here. What data gets out? What type of suspicious activities?

\- Have you tried package-capturing with wireshark on the internet connections your laptop makes?

\- Are you sure that there's no other attack point in your network that could be more easily infected than a BIOS?

\- Have you checked your phone for instance?

\- Have you checked the Master Boot Record of your harddrive?

\- Have you checked your router?

\- Have you tried unhackme (rootkit scanner) ?

A BIOS is _very_ device specific, which would mean that either somebody finds you _very_ interesting on a level that's NSA-tech worthy, or China hackers just leveled up.

I have a hard time just believing this, and there's a ton of attack angles that would be much more efficient to bug someone.

Also. Since when was hacker news downgraded to a personal helpdesk?

<comment><AUTHOR> Please post some detailed analyiys of what's going on here. What data gets out? What type of suspicious activities?

        They know my gmail passwords.

\- Have you tried package-capturing with wireshark on the internet connections your laptop makes?

        Yes.

\- Are you sure that there's no other attack point in your network that could be more easily infected than a BIOS?

        Can be.

\- Have you checked your phone for instance?

        Downgraded the phone.

\- Have you checked the Master Boot Record of your harddrive?

        Yes.

\- Have you checked your router?

        Don't have access.

\- Have you tried unhackme (rootkit scanner) ?

        Yes.

A BIOS is very device specific, which would mean that either somebody finds you very interesting on a level that's NSA-tech worthy, or China hackers just leveled up.

I have a hard time just believing this, and there's a ton of attack angles that would be much more efficient to bug someone.

         I am facing it.

Also. Since when was hacker news downgraded to a personal helpdesk?

        Where else shall I go to resolve the crisis?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Tech here:

What did you scan your bios with?

How did you format your laptop?

What system are you running? Windows 8 or 7?

How did you activate your windows OS?

What is the exact model number of your laptop?

answer as much as possible so I can help

<comment><AUTHOR> avast antivirus.

and [http://www.malwarebytes.org/](http://www.malwarebytes.org/)

usb device.

win 8, i had a genuine iso file and keys.

Model - 41113TU Product - C7D86PA#ACJ

<comment><USER3> If you already formatted your laptop those viruses should be gone but if you think you have a rootkit

Scan with this tool called kaspersky anti rootkit TDSSKiller

[http://support.kaspersky.com/us/5350#block1](http://support.kaspersky.com/us/5350#block1)

If you find something delete it.

But just to be extra safe re flash your bios/ update it and then scan afterwards to see if anything pops up.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you have pointers on flashing the bios.

Had tried that TDSSKiller earlier.

<comment><USER3> Yea you can download it from this link and then follow the instructions

[http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?sof...](http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?softwareitem=ob-115172-1&cc=us&dlc=en&lc=en&os=4132&product=5375658&sw_lang=)

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks, worked like a charm.

So having flashed the BIOS and upgrading it, should I be secure that there is no rootkit inside the machine?

<comment><USER3> Yup.

Just ugh try not downloading random cracked programs and open up any spam emails.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> psycho-geek Get rid of Windows 8 and the TPM2 crap. Your machine is no longer yours. It is spied upon and owned by Microsoft. They have FULL control over your machine. I have caught Windows 8.1 uploading my data to Microsoft. They encrypt the communications, but I was monitoring Windows and what files it was accessing and what communications it was performing over the Internet. When I blocked the ip addresses, it evaded my blocks by using a different set. All ip addresses were owned by Microsoft.

<comment><AUTHOR> How were you monitoring communications?

Is it possible for me to monitor any communication that is going at BIOS level?

<comment> psycho-geek I used Wireshark ([http://www.wireshark.org/](http://www.wireshark.org/)). I was actually diagnosing a different issue, until I noticed that my Win8 machine was especially chatty. When I looked more into it, I was horrified as to how much data was being uploaded to Microsoft. I used many different techniques, including Man in the Middle in order to see what info was actually being sent. It was especially creepy to see that the Win8 box took evasive actions as I tried to spy on its communications. I wonder exactly what Microsoft has to hide regarding this communication and has to encrypt it and be evasive.

I am not aware of any easy way of monitoring BIOS level communications. If you are afraid that the BIOS has been compromised by a virus then I would suggest that you update the BIOS with an update from the vendor's web site. Even if it the same version that's installed.

If you are worried that the machine's vendor has somehow added spying routines into the BIOS, then for safety's sake don't use the machine for work, or for any secure info. Use it only play.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Maybe reflash your bios? Have you considered that it might be your network?

<comment><AUTHOR> Does reflashing it guarantees removal of keyloggers or laptop camera mismanagement?

<comment><USER4> No, but it's better than being paranoid and not doing anything about it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> get a mac

<comment><AUTHOR> no money!

<comment><USER6> install linux then.

<comment><AUTHOR> BIOS is still there, right?

<comment><USER7> Reflash the BIOS from a different machine, install linux.

<comment><AUTHOR> any pointers how to go about?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Aroma: Using ML for Code Recommendation - <AUTHOR> https://code.fb.com/developer-tools/aroma/ <comment><USER2> Discussion from 4 days ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606794](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606794)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Same article but different URL, so Algolia didn't find it. Should have used keywords I guess!</comment></comment>


I Walked Out to Protect My Identity - <AUTHOR> https://www.secframe.com/blog/a-walkout-to-protect-my-identity <comment><USER2> Mr. Rowe is far more trusting than I am. I would have simply walked out of the dealership.</comment>


No hope of a quiet life in the age of disruption - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.com/content/ad4188dc-872d-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade <comment><USER2> Paywall</comment>


Ask HN: How to decide on the pricing model for SaaS? - <AUTHOR> I am building a SaaS app(editor for screenwriters), and trying to figure out what is a good pricing model.
Should I use monthly subscription or one-time payment? How much should I charge?
Can you share some general advice on what is the best way to decide or what to avoid? <comment><USER2> Well, being a screenwriter is not necessarily a stable business on of itself. Therefore I would rather go with a one-time payment than staring on their monthly expenses horror show. OTOH you will have to support them endlessly, than again, this won't be that much more of a trouble; I am assuming.

The general advice is: testing. Drive traffic to your landing pages and see which one converts the best. With that I mean: which source of traffic coverts best AND which landing page design works best. HINT: hire a professional copywriter, he will work wonders for you there.

In any case, test and thus find the best performing combo.

You should put some effort into the presentation of your company. Why should anyone trust you with their data? This is a very big question, that you MUST address. (Minor nitpick: I've come across websites of small firms and they didn't even bother to tell in which city they reside. This is of course a form of mindlessness, which told me everything I needed to know to not do business with them. Details matter.)

</comment><comment><USER3> one-time payment is forever, and forever is a very long time for a SaaS. You have monthly cost. In ten years you will have monthly cost for the users that pay today $5.

I suggest to make a monthly plan, with an option to pay annually with a 1 or 2 month discount.

How much are other similar projects charging? Don't put a very low price.

Read some advice from patio11: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13843743](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13843743) (The whole discussion may be useful [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13840282](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13840282) )</comment>


Look at what two years on Mars did to the Curiosity Rover - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/20/6046609/its-hard-out-there-for-an-interplanetary-robot

<comment><USER2> Fantastic detailed images of wear and tear on the materials. This gives us great data to use for creating the next Mars robots.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yea Emily Lakdawalla has an interesting blog article on the nature of the damage to Curiosity's wheels and the implication for NASA's 2020 mission: [http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily- lakdawalla/2014/0819063...](http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily- lakdawalla/2014/08190630-curiosity-wheel-damage.html)</comment></comment>


Ask HN:  What to do when your code is stolen? - <AUTHOR>

I did something dumb.  I was "hired" by one of those awful property management companies as a temp worker -- a secretary for one who was on vacation.  During the 2 weeks I was an employee, I built the company a website to showcase this townhome community it is developing. Multi-million dollars, right?  Some people within the company stole my credit, removed the link to my site, and basically stole my code.<p>We all know most real estate people are Evil, but this really bothers me.  I wrote this whole website from scratch, had my credit taken off and am kind of at a loss as to what to do.  Just because they paid me some amount of money, does this give them a right to erase a signature from a painting?  Help! <comment><USER2> OK, there's more emerging as we delve deeper.

Firstly, it appears that you worked on this web site only outside of the hours you were being paid for. Is that right?

Secondly, you were doing this work in the time allocated to your own company as an opportunity to show what was possible. Is this right?

Thirdly, during the time you were being paid for, you worked only and exclusively on what you were asked to do. Is this right?

If so, then so far so good. Now the problems start.

Fourthly, at some point you demonstrated the web site you'd developed running on your own server. Is that right?

Fifthly, you were specifically requested to transfer the web site to a server they had control of. Is that right?

Sixthly, you did so, without mentioning payment or issues of ownership. Is that right?

Why should they think it wasn't theirs? Did you ever say to them that it was yours, not theirs, and that you were going to offer it in exchange for payment?

What seems clear is that there is scope for confusion. From what you've been saying it seems completely reasonable that they think they own it. If you think otherwise then you must explain not your point of view, but their point of view.

Consider. They were paying you. You produced this. What did you do or say to make it clear that the two things aren't related?

EDIT: If it comes to some sort of arbitration - what evidence do you have that the work is yours?

</comment><comment><USER2> IANAL ...

Generally, default contracts (those in effect if you don't explicitly have one) state that anything you do or produce while working for a company belongs to the company.

Sucks, doesn't it.

If that's the case where you are (and it varies from region to region, country to country) then you have no rights. What you produced is theirs, and they can do what they like with it. Whether this really does extend to removing your copyright statement or not I don't know, but you're not going to find out cheaply.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to chalk it up to experience. In two weeks you built something you could be proud of. Looking at it another way, you've lost only two weeks of your time, been paid, and learned a valuable lesson.

Don't produce something unless you know who has the rights, who's paying, and how much.

The only other advice I can give is to write a letter "more in sorrow than anger" expressing your disappointment that they have appropriated your work, removed the credit, and have failed to acknowledge the effort you put into it. You could include a comment that it's been an eye-opener, and experience that you intend to pass on to others. See what response that gets. Be careful not to make threats. Be "saddened" by the incident.

Remember, these are comments from someone without a stake in it, and any action you take is your own. I still suggest you simply walk away, taking the lesson.

<comment><USER3> This is good advice. I worry that you've already put up barriers with your ex- boss, but if there's any way you can salvage the relationship, perhaps they could at least reinstate the credit to you on the site. You aren't going to win this one, but at least you could put the site on your resume.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> _During the 2 weeks I was an employee, I built the company a website to showcase this townhome community it is developing._

Ok, so... during the time that you were an employee, you were told to do work; you did it; and your employer owns the work you did.

What did you think was going to happen?

<comment><AUTHOR> Are you actually endorsing property management companies?

I worked as a temp secretary under "employee" status. I built the website on my own time, under my company status. Two separate things.

<comment><USER2> You don't understand employment law. This is nothing to do with property management companies, it's everything to do with the fact that you were employed by them at the time you built this.

Whether or not you did it on your own time is largely irrelevant. It's related to their business, you were employed by them (under default contract) and hence, by law, it probably belongs to them.

You goofed, it seems to be your fault, and you won't get any more advice or comment if you rant and shout at us for telling you the truth.

<comment><USER5> In California, companies don't automatically get everything you do on your own time.

However, it appears he already handed it over, so I don't think there's a lot that can be done, and especially not without talking to a laywer. Never deliver stuff without a contract.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Talk to a lawyer? Not much else to say - only a lawyer will be able to look at your contract, examine the situation, and tell you if you have grounds to do anything.

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately, the guy who hired me _is_ a lawyer. I thought he was trustworthy, but when he discovered my disgust with the real estate industry, he went all out to attack me. And there is no contract. . . hello being taken advantage of yet again!

<comment><USER5> > Unfortunately, the guy who hired me is a lawyer.

"Talk to a lawyer" means "enquire with a lawyer about the possibility of them taking on your case". Presumably not the one that you feel owes you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What RiderOfGiraffes said so far is what I also know about the subject. To summarize:

\- Worked produced while employed as a programmer belongs to the employer. "Signature from a painting" doesn't apply: they have not only ownership but authorship, too.

You have two ways to beat this, and both depend on the specific law where you worked and the specific employment contract you signed:

\- First, whether you were hired as a programmer or not. This could be a big deal, but you need to dig into the text of the law or talk to a (specialized) lawyer.

\- Second, whether work done outside official working hours is yours or theirs. It could be either way, but it's definitely written somewhere (law and/or contract).

You're not the first to stumble on this issue, but unfortunately here you'll find mostly hackers, less lawyers. When you look for a lawyer though make sure he knows about IP and employment law.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm extremely talented and adaptable. As "secretary" I endured the pain of answering telephones and routing calls. Whether or not I worked on this web site in or out of official "work hours" is irrelevant. I did work on this site mostly away from my official "work hours," answering the damn telephone.

The entire site was developed on my personal server, before being exposed to this Evil property management company, and my site is entirely wholesome. The changed link is not so much. I'm still begging for help; how much do I have to beg?

<comment><USER2>
      > I'm extremely talented and adaptable.

I have no reason to doubt that.

      > As "secretary" I endured the pain of answering
      > telephones and routing calls.

As a technical person who has occasionally been called upon to do this sort of work, I know how difficult it can be, especially when dealing with the general public.

      > Whether or not I worked on this web site in
      > or out of official "work hours" is irrelevant.

Sadly, I think you'll find that the law takes a different point of view, and if you _did_ do _any_ of this work during the time being paid for, you are on very, very difficult ground.

      > I did work on this site mostly away from my
      > official "work hours,"

"Mostly" is unlikely to be good enough.

      > The entire site was developed on my personal server,
      > before being exposed to this Evil property management
      > company, and my site is entirely wholesome.

So the question remains, how has it ended up under their control? Did they wget and upload a copy? Can you prove that? Does the site contain anything that you can prove is yours?

      > I'm still begging for help;
      > how much do I have to beg?

I suspect you've been given the best advice you're going to get from here. You have two basic options. Either take your lumps and walk away having learned something about employment law, evil employers, and not giving things away before you've discussed and agreed payment terms, or ...

Get yourself a lawyer. Do lots of homework, compile your evidence, read about employment law in your area, then take advantage of the free hour initial consultation that many of them offer. Make a compelling case. If you can't convince them then you'll have to walk away. Otherwise you will have some professional advice on your side.

Alternatively, what help do you want us to give?

<comment><USER7> IANAL....

A few bits and pieces of information to collect before you talk to the lawyer. _This list is far from complete._ Someone with more knowledge can add to this list of fix it, just a way to get your started.

Do you have any correspondence with them? Does any of it show/indicate/imply that they "stole" you work.

How were you employed? Do you have any sort of contract? Do you have a copy of it? Any follow up questions to the contract asked via email?

How were you being paid? Was it by the hour, by the day, a lump sum for the two weeks? If it was by the hour, did you work on the website during the time you were working as a secretary? If it was by the day or lump sum, was there anything in a contract that specified the number of hours or the times you would be working each day? If so, did you work on the website during those hours?

Did they ever ask you to work on the website? Why did you even do it? Were you just bored during work and decided to give it a shot?

When they asked you to transfer it to their server, what did they say? Anything in email? Can you get your hands on the email (legally!)?

Do you still have the server with your original work? Can you show that it predates the website that went up? How similar is it to the one on your server (aside from the missing signature)? Side note: I'd suggest not touching the work on your server till you talk to a lawyer. Any change on the timestamps might suggest foul play... even if you can show its not I would think its best not to do anything.

Also, I would not suggest putting the answers to these questions up on HN. I don't know if it will hurt or not, but if you put stuff up in public, it might lead to further problems.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Been there, done that, lived with the mistake. Would all the stress, emotion and distraction of pushing further be worth it in the end? I'd just call it a learning experience (and a loss), toss the whole thing into history and move on with more interesting things.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> <http://www.willowvillagesquare.com> is the site I developed from scratch. My company name has been removed and replaced with "Radio Homes, LLC". . .

</comment><comment><USER9> Get a lawyer. Good luck!

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Sexism. That's what this basically boils down to. . . Evil Sexism. Hire the girl as a secretary, rape her of her talents, and steal her credit. WTF.

<comment><USER10> you know, i can understand that you are upset. but blaming this on 'sexism' is pretty laughable. i suspect that there isn't a single one of us male tech workers who hasn't been screwed over once or twice. especially those of us who have been around the block a time or two.

part of dealing with adversity is managing your own feelings. yours have gotten away from you right now, and it's causing you to act irrationally. first you had only one problem: some company you were working for didn't act in good faith. now you've got an additional problem: your emotions are clouding your judgement. if you keep acting like this, you could easily make this a _far_ worse problem than it already is.

you don't have much control over how the people at the realty company behave. but you have _absolute_ control over your own feelings. that's the _first_ thing you should be working on.</comment></comment>


How Standing Desks Can Help Students Focus in the Classroom - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/10/how-standing-desks-can-help-students-focus-in-the-classroom/ <comment><USER3> Ikea has recently begun offering a pair of electrically adjusting sit/stand desks:

[http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S19022530/](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S19022530/)

[http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49022270/](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49022270/)

<comment><USER4> They're ~$500 and ~$600...

Anyone know where I can get a standing desk (don't care if it's adjustable) that isn't insanely expensive?

<comment><USER5> $500-$600 is actually cheap! I haven't been able to find a motorized sit stand desk for less than $1200.

<comment><USER6> I don't know why the GP poster is being downvoted. For most of the world's population, $500 is not cheap.

I find it difficult to categorize the desk, a tool for productivity, as a luxury. I know that's just personal bias speaking, though.

The market supplies alternatives of varying degrees of quality, functionality, and design for ordinary desks. I wish there was equal demand for standing desks. Nothing ever seems to bring down the prices for them.

<comment><USER3> For $100k/year workers (the main HN audience), it's cheap. Especially considering it, along with a chair and a computer, is by far the most important tools for said audience.

<comment><USER7> > For $100k/year workers (the main HN audience), it's cheap

So you don't believe the tale that the primary audience for Hacker News are actually working on startups?

If someone can't afford US$500, they can make a desk out of a plank of wood on top of some bricks or old furniture. A standup desk is a minor modification. One can then put a bunk bed for sleeping above the desk, and thus share the room with co-founders. Co-founders can then take turns sleeping in the car.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Speaking as a parent: do you know how you help students focus in the classroom?

Stop preventing them from socializing during lunch. Allow them to get outside for more than 15 minutes so they can work off some of that excess energy, both physical and mental. Stop helicoptering around them on the playground and _let them be kids._

Everything else (aside from diagnosed learning disabilities) is just treating the damn symptoms caused by "experts" attempting to "fix" what hasn't been broken in schools for decades.

But don't take _my_ word for it. Talk to a few involved parents of elementary school children. Are the kids forced to be quiet during their 15-20 minute lunch break? Have some traditional recess games such as tag been banned? Are troublesome students punished by being kept in during recess?

<comment><USER9> I agree completely: It isn't standing desks that are needed, it is more actual movement and breaks from sitting. I'll admit I would have used it some as a student, but I'd have been just as happy with a space on the floor I could move about on. Recess and down time is important, not just movement, which the article tends to overlook. Finland does this already - less lecture and breaks more often and have had fantastic results.

In fact, recess and free time are something I noticed quickly after moving from the US to Norway. The nearby elementary almost always has children outside playing. Actually playing. In wet sand, in puddles, climbing, running, soccer... so many things kids do that they would forbidden to do in the states.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Remember how Agile invented the "standup meeting" specifically to leverage the fact that no one wants to stand still for over 15 minutes?

Maybe the problem is that demanding students focus in the classroom for 5 hours of lecture per day is a stupid goal.

</comment><comment><USER11> No...

When I was in 5th grade, we did not have chairs or anything for our violin class. It wasn't fun, we had to stand for the entire class (which to 5th grade me was very annoying.) We got to sit down for 30 seconds in the middle of class as a "rest period"

That didn't make me want to go to the class. If this gets implemented you might end up making kids dislike the classroom even more.

<comment><USER12> If you pair a tall shop stool with a standing desk, like the Stand2Learn desk and stool shown in the article, you don't have to stand 100% of the time and the desk doesn't have to be adjustable between a sitting and standing position.

I had this kind of setup in a drafting class in high school and a few art classes in college, and now I've spent the last 5 months with a similar setup for computer use at work and home. I probably stand 2/3 of the time and sit 1/3 of the time, and sometimes I hop up and down to really get the blood flowing or pace around when I'm frustrated with something or trying to wrap my head around an abstract concept. I feel significantly healthier these days than I did when I was sitting in a desk chair 11-14 hours a day (combined work and home).

Just as an aside, if you're going to stand and read a book or use a tablet or phone, you'll want an angled platform to avoid neck strain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I think a better solution is one of the several pedal desks available today[0]. Kids who are tired can relax without disrupting class or their learning, and those who have energy to get out can pedal all day.

Standing in class all day would be a nightmare. I'm transitioning to a personal standing desk right now, but I would NEVER want to use one in class - school is physically tension-inducing and uncomfortable for a myriad of reasons and forcing students to stand up would only exacerbate that problem.

[0] [http://www.gophersport.com/item/kinesthetic-classroom- pedal-...](http://www.gophersport.com/item/kinesthetic-classroom-pedal-desks)

<comment><USER14> Off the main topic, but perhaps relevant.... based on personal experience, exercises like biking (esp stationary) and rowing (leg part) can cause piriformis syndrome[1] if not complemented with a set of actions targeting orthogonal actions/muscle movement.

During the winter I knew I would not go to the gym, so I purchased an exercise bike and used it religiously every two days. I was exercising but there was a pain in the buttocks and it was getting worse and I finally had to stop. Sitting at work caused pain after 1 hr, then 30 minutes, then 15. Driving to work caused pain. Stopping the bike did not help alleviate the problem. Went to the Dr who referred me to a physio. None of the exercises given to me helped. It took me a while to diagnose what I was experiencing - <USER2> symptoms finally led me to a set of exercises that has helped incredibly. I am not fixed yet; I have to do the exercises ideally twice a day or at a minimum once every two days. It is much much better but it was torture when undiagnosed.

So if you have pain in the "middle of each or both buttocks" when sitting for a small amount of time, consider piriformis syndrome. If you feel you are constantly clenching your buttocks read up on it as well. The exercises to get relief are very simple, can be done lying down, and start showing promise after about 2 days. The exercises I do are on Youtube.

Which reminds me... I need to call my physio and let her know... hopefully this information helps someone else.

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piriformis_syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piriformis_syndrome)

<comment><USER15> Can you link the exercises? That would probably be the most helpful information.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In the latter part of high school, I began standing in the classes where I both knew the teacher fairly well and didn't think I would bother anyone else by doing so. Since there weren't any standing desks, I would either stand myself near a wall or an unused desk I could lean on and carry a clipboard, or I would occasionally grab a music stand or an unused lectern. I had never felt particularly uncomfortable in a normal desk before, but for the first time I really felt unconstrained by my environment. I'm naturally somewhat fidgety, and gaining the ability to readjust my body comfortably without bothering anyone and to pace around the classroom (even in a very small area) really allowed me to get my blood flowing more easily and prevented me from being distracted from any discomfort I had in a desk built for people who were both smaller than I was at the time and who were not left-handed. Talking to the teacher (or even to other students) feels much more intimate, as your vision isn't obstructed by the back of someone's head. Something I didn't expect was that when participating in class discussions, I felt more expressive, as I tend to move my hands and arms when I speak, something I couldn't do easily in a sitting desk.

I wonder, though, whether or not some of both the student's and my improvements were caused by being on a different plane from the rest of the class. I also wonder what effect having some standing students in a classroom would have on the seated children. I was once told that I was somewhat intimidating when I was the only one standing in the classroom.

I don't know whether standing desks are the best option for everyone, but they're certainly a better option for some, and I'm glad to see standing desks being given greater consideration nowadays.

</comment><comment><USER17> Is there any reason we need to buy a special desk just so kids can stand? IMO you could get the same result by allowing kids to stand up if they need to or even better: stop killing recess, defunding gym, and banning dodgeball. Besides that, I don't think I would like the standing desk thing. I'd want to sit sometimes and lean back in a chair.

</comment><comment><USER18> I used to get trouble in school for standing at my desk rather than sitting... They thought that I wasn't paying attention because of some behavioral problem.

It turns out that I was finishing/understanding my work early and getting bored.

I think that the standing desk with bar stool combination that someone else mentioned would be a great idea for schools!

</comment><comment><USER19> I use a standing desk for work, the majority of the time I sit on my chair. But around 2:30pm, the ability to stand up for the rest of the day is a life saver. I know if I had a standing desk thorough high school, my 5th & 6th block classes would have been much easier to stay awake through.</comment>


Why are so many Americans single? - <AUTHOR> http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/04/16/120416crbo_books_heller?currentPage=all

<comment><USER2> Human beings are a noisy, quarrelsome lot and many people want peace and quiet. The U.S. is large, fairly wealthy, and mobile so most adults can afford to live on their own. If Aunt Sally keeps tormenting us about getting married, we can move 4000 miles away from Aunt Sally.

</comment><comment><USER3> We discussed this in communication theory during my sophmore year in college. American and Europe are becoming individualistic culture compared to the collectivist culture most of the world lives in. As much as we want to believe people should just get some courage and walk up to someone to have a conversation this is not how people interact. We rely on getting introductions in order to make social connections with new people. The more you live along the worst this become as you become self obsessed, and your social skills to connect with other begin to deteriorate.</comment>


Is Hainan the new "blockchain island?" Meet the contenders - <AUTHOR> https://decrypt.co/12887/is-hainan-the-new-blockchain-island-meet-the-contenders <comment><USER2> My money is always on China.</comment>


Where Will Everyone Go? Modeling How Climate Refugees Move Across Continents - <AUTHOR> https://features.propublica.org/climate-migration/model-how-climate-refugees-move-across-continents/ <comment><USER2> I was a little frustrated to see that only the America's were modelled. Are we saying the main equator region is going to become too hot to live (I imagine with warming that's logical). Would prefer to see a looser model looking at the equator band worldwide and guessing as to where people might obviously head. Considering geography and politics I think there's enough there to get a crude logical idea of what might happen.

</comment><comment><USER3> The PNAS article[1] may be more appropriate for this audience than the popular news media treatment. The first two charts are food for thought.

[1] [https://www.pnas.org/content/117/21/11350](https://www.pnas.org/content/117/21/11350)

</comment><comment><USER4> Again, ideologically motivated pseudoscience: they make a bunch of dubious assumptions, focus on Central America to arrive at the inevitable subject of migration to the USA. Due to their assumptions, the outcome of their model is predetermined and they've "proven" we can either choose to accept climate alarmism or billions of refugees in our countries.</comment>


Parachuting for Charity: A 5-year audit (1999) - <AUTHOR> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10476298 <comment><USER2> Some years ago I organized some bridge* events for charity. It was as simple as selecting a worthy cause (a children's hospital), signing an agreement that we were going to turn over the funds, collecting the funds, and handing them over.

These were a minuscule success, and I later thought that a "fun run" would be a good way to raise some money. I asked around about how to organize such things, and I was connected to a firm that organized these things as a service.

They took me to a nice lunch, which I thought was a bad sign. "Never buy anything in a room with a chandelier," is the old saying, and while there was no chandelier in the restaurant, the metaphor was nevertheless on point.

When I finally got the actual details of how the run would operate, I realized that the firm's fees would greatly exceed the amount of money that would end up going to the charity.

I speculate that the "market" for these services are people who want to buy some respectability. Had I gone though with the deal and the run was a success, everyone would think I was a nice person doing nice things for people in need, even if the actual numbers would show that I was a nice person doing nice things for a service company's revenues.

N=1, of course, but I have had an extremely cynical view of charity events ever since. There appears to be an entire industry built around siphoning away 90%-99% of every dollar adjacent to charity.

———

* Bridge the card game, not the BASE-jumping location.

<comment><USER3> I've participated in many such charity fun runs and see no problem with this type of arrangement. It takes a lot of work and experience to host successful running events: registration, insurance, web site development, course marking, permits, aid stations, timing, t-shirts, clean up, etc. It's worth paying an event management company to ensure everything runs smoothly. Shop around and you might find a smaller local company willing to do it for a lower price.

In the end the charity still gets more money than they had before and the runners get some exercise: win / win. Plus you've raised awareness of the cause and some participants will go on the become regular donors.

<comment><USER4> But people think they are donating money to a charity, not purchasing an experience from an event company. It's misleading at best.

<comment><USER3> There's no need to mislead potential participants. Just post information on the event web site showing where their registration fees go and let them decide.

<comment><USER4> I don't think it's the participants who are being mislead the most, though. It's the donors. The people who "sponsor" the participants.

<comment><USER3> Arrangements vary by event and production company but typically participant registration fees cover the management company's charges. Any additional donations from sponsors go directly to the charity, minus a small processing fee. Of course you might be able to find exceptions to that rule.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This study was published in 1999 and while it is a wonderful example of incentives gone awry, it's also dated.

Per the article, "All charity parachuting in our study was apparently done by static line methods from 2500± 3000 feet." [1] Static line parachuting means the participant jumps solo and a cord automatically opens the parachute for them when they exit the plane. It's very different than skydiving tandem, which is far more common these days and much safer.

That still doesn't mean that skydiving for charity makes any sense financially. It strikes me as absurd that people who want to skydive collect money from friends under the expectation that a small percentage of the donated funds make their way to a charity —- £30 per jump for the NHS, though apparently more for other organizations. [2]

But then this comes from a country that is trying to convince the rest of the world that wearing a clown nose for a day is a charitable act. [3]

Y'all can't just give for the sake of giving? ;-)

[1] [https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1999-lee.pdf](https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1999-lee.pdf)

[2] [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224643/Why-tell- ch...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224643/Why-tell-charity- skydivers-running-JUMP-Good-causes-fraction-cash-NHS-pay-injuries.html)

[3] [https://rednoseday.org/](https://rednoseday.org/)

<comment><USER6> I have never understood this either. It might seem a bit cynical but it often feels a bit like someone trying to:

1\. Do something cool they always wanted to

2\. Get someone else to pay for it

3\. Get some feel-good story to tell their friends in the process

Perhaps it's not the case, and that most people are well intentioned, don't think about it this way and aren't trying to do anything nefarious. But it's hard to shake the idea once it's in your head :-/

<comment><USER7> My uncle once asked me to sponsor him to do a charity marathon. I contacted the charity and found out that at most 50% of my donation would go to the charity and the rest would pay for him training and event fees.

I did sponsor him but I kept thinking it would have been better to send 100% of my donation directly to the charity in my uncle's name. Of course that would have been a lot less fun for my uncle.

<comment><USER8> I think the question is - would you have donated, to any cause, without your Uncle?

I'm not asking to be combative - it's a legitimate question millions have to ask themselves. My friends and I participated in the ice-bucket challenge. We would not have done what we did w/o such a ridiculous, yet fun, method of virality.

To me, it is about 'effective' money. With your uncle + the organization, was the money more effective with or without?

There is an interesting TED talk from 2013 that highlights a semi- counterintuitive problem - if you can't pay top dollar, you can't get top dollar talent except in extremely narrow cases[0].

My interpretation is, we would love 100% of our charitable donations to reach the village who needs water or a toilet, but the reality is, people who run the org need to get paid as well.

Measuring a charity by how stingy it is might actually be less effective overall.

Anecdote: Bill and Melinda Gates foundation absolutely pays top dollar (of charities) to gain some of the smartest former execs in the industry. They're wildly effective.

[0] [https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_abou...](https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_about_charity_is_dead_wrong/transcript?language=en)

<comment><USER7> I certainly would not have known about this particular charity without my uncle. However, had he told me it was an important cause to him and simply asked me to join him in donating, I would have.

I guess another question is whether my uncle would have made that effort without the marathon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > The injury rate in charity-parachutists was 11%

That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?

<comment><USER10> At first I was thinking no big deal, it probably includes things like minor scrapes and bruises from the landing, but then I saw this:

>Sixty-three percent of casualties who were charity-parachutists required hospital admission, representing a serious injury rate of 7%

Can any skydivers give insight on this?

<comment><USER11> I'll bite. Assuming those charity parachutists were doing solo jumps using the static line system, it makes sense. The static line exit isn't dangerous per se, but the landing can be... challenging. For example, the old style round parachute couldn't be slowed down on landing, it had a constant rate of descent. On landing,you had to hit the ground and do a PLF [1].

The square canopy (or the ram-air canopy) can indeed be slowed down. It's also a lot more manoeuvrable, and can go quite fast. A novice might not be able to correctly judge the speed/altitude/wind direction - and if not handled properly, a square canopy can land you on your face or break a leg.

[1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_landing_fall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_landing_fall)

EDIT: spelling and added a link

<comment><USER12> "For example, the old style round parachute couldn't be slowed down on landing"

In the late 90s, wouldn't they have been using the ones that you can fly like a wing? And I don't know how widespread it was, but possibly a radio to give you instructions, when to flare.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have always found the premise of "run for charity" or "jump for charity" weird. If I thought a cause was worthwhile, I would donate to it. Why does someone running or jumping have anything to do with me donating?

<comment><USER14> Ditto for all the dozens or maybe even hundreds of new charities that are formed each week (at least in the United States).

It seems like instead of having a hundred thousand micro-charities, it would be better if the money were just sent directly to a large charity that already operates at scale and can use the money more efficiently.

Sending $100 to Doctors Without Borders is far more effective than giving $100 to The Dr. Steffy McStethoscope Memorial Fund For People Who Want To Make Themselves Feel Good.

It's like "raising awareness." It doesn't help anyone but the people trying to make themselves feel better about themselves.

<comment><USER15> _> It seems like instead of having a hundred thousand micro-charities, it would be better if the money were just sent directly to a large charity that already operates at scale and can use the money more efficiently._

We could call it "taxes".

<comment><USER14> Except that (again in the United States which I point out because the article is UK-focused), governments at all levels have been offloading their responsibilities for the common welfare onto private entities, often for- profit entities. And in many places simultaneously making it harder for charities to do their work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In other news, programs like Product (RED) cost much more in marketing and advertising than they raise.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20070624105650/http://www.africo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20070624105650/http://www.africomnet.org/news/mustreads/read03081.php)

The question, I suppose, is whether it's better for charity that it collects a few dollars that it might have not received anyway.

The example in the OP is particularly egregious because it suggests that society is paying a high cost for a few dollars donated to charity.

</comment><comment><USER17> This brings back memories.

Used to work for an NHS hospital trust.

The chief executive made a rather rash, very public announcement (under peer pressure) that he was going to do a skydive for the hospital charity.

Lots of jokes etc.

But he was going to do it.

Until our chief medical director took him aside and told him about the injury rate and how they actually cost the NHS more.

Though a few people from the charity brought it up, it was politely forgotten about. And he did a walk around the peak district instead

</comment><comment><USER18> To be honest, many charity events cost more to organise and run than they collect in money.

A bit of a (related) tangent...

As a parent this is really obvious for almost all events that schools run. Of course, an argument in those cases is that they have educational value, but I think that teaching to do the maths and to be effective beyond the immediate desire to "help and do something" also has educational value.

Sometimes we, parents, have to spend £20 to get the child ready for the event where they are asked to donate £1 for the chosen charity...

</comment><comment><USER19> Makes me think of this one time. It was me, and a first timer who'd been convinced by his gf it might cure his fear of heights.

Yada yada yada, he broke both his legs. Something tells me it didn't help much.

</comment><comment><USER20> This is 1999 and popping "parachute jump for NHS" into Google yields many results and let's not forget the ADsense promoted ones as well.

So a known issue and one perpetuated still today for profit. But this is a pattern we see play out over and over again and alas without some media drama incident of say a charity parachutist landing on a child in a playground with fatalities - nothing will change. Heck - look at bigger issues like climate change and how long that's been known about and how long it drags out.

Which makes you wonder why governments who have departments for everything, lack one for common sense education as many sound messages get lost in the void of nothingness.

</comment><comment><USER21> After a local epidemic of chuggers ("charity muggers") here there was a good newspaper article on some disreputable charities.

A bit of web searching took me here:

[https://thedevilcorp.wordpress.com/](https://thedevilcorp.wordpress.com/)

It's very enlightening and alarming!

</comment><comment><USER22> Published in 1999.

</comment><comment><USER23> I've not heard of parachute jumps for charity in the USA. Is it more popular in the UK?

And if so, is it possible the existence of the NHS – making participants & charities somewhat more indifferent to the medical costs – is what's helping the popularity (& resource waste) here, in a classic 'moral hazard' situation?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard)

Have UK charities just figured out a way, via a slight nudge to wannabe parachuters, to siphon off some of the value of NHS coverage into their own program funds?

</comment><comment><USER24> if you start from the assumption that each of us has a finite amount of money we will give to charity and that - one way or another - we will give that amount, then giving to things like fun runs and fancy balls ([https://leukemiaball.org/](https://leukemiaball.org/)) makes no sense at all (the donation pie is fixed). If, however, these activities increase the pie of actual donations, then holding them makes sense, so long as the increase in the size of the giving pie is not exceeded by the expense of holding these activities.

</comment><comment><USER25> 3 questions

        * at what cost
        * compared to what
        * with what hard evidence

At least they figured out the first eventually.

</comment><comment><USER26> 11% injury rate with 60% of those admitted to the hospital! Cost is not the main issue with this!

</comment><comment><USER27> What better way to show someone the value of a hospital system than to have them admitted and treated by it!

<comment><USER12> New doctors have to practice on someone...

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> > "...and places a significant burden on health resources."

How can 174 people place significant burden on NHS? I understand their concern but certainly there are bigger fish to fry.

Also, more importantly, the analysis is completely flawed. Their ROI is based on the injuried, not all who donated and dived.

<comment><USER29> _Parachute jumping for charity is not cost-effective in raising money, as the cost of treatment of the 11% who are injured is far in excess of any money raised by the rest._

There analysis is correct. They looked across all charity parachutists, the medical costs for those injured versus total amount raised.

How can it put a burden on the NHS?

 _Of 105 patients admitted to hospital, 66 (63%) required operative intervention._

Can you imagine the 1 or 2 hospitals dealing with this? The system overall can deal with it, but not the local providers.

<comment><USER28> Where does it mention the total universe of donors/jumpers? It says the average donation was 30 quid. That said, 30 to jump is not the same as 30 per donated.

Too many loose ends here, or a sloppy job at communication.

<comment><USER29> It's in the open access article. They calculated the "net" donation after costs.</comment></comment></comment></comment>