Cloud computing is a trap, says Stallman - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman <comment><USER2> Unintentionally hilarious given the way the FSF worked to make itself irrelevant by ignoring hosted apps for decades. I mailed them in the late 90s asking why it was that running an app on my computer meant I should get the source code but running the exact same app via telnet meant I shouldn't. At the time I was writing a MUD server I wanted to open source, but I was also thinking of websites. The only answer I got was that, yes, the GPL doesn't cover this and they have no interest in extending it to do so.

Stallman can whine about it if he likes, but he can't pretend this is some sudden terrible attack on Free Software - it's been a problem for a long time, and it's been ignored for a long time.

(Yeah, I'm aware of the Affero GPL. AGPLv2 was just bad. AGPLv3 is decent but way late and inexplicably separate from the GPL.)

<comment><USER3> I remember reading some Eben Moglen & i think he mentioned that they didn't hardcode this into GPLv3 because the rights of someone using an ATM are (should be?) different from those of someone owning the machine with the code.

When trying to grok the GPL, it helps to keep rms' MIT printer story in mind. It's on wiki.

<comment><USER4> It's not about open vs. closed source:

 _The 55-year-old New Yorker said that computer users should be keen to keep their information in their own hands, rather than hand it over to a third party._

<comment><USER5> "users should be keen to keep their information in their own hands"

That's Zero Knowledge. Like the recently unfunded fantastic Clipperz library. I can't believe no smart investor found a way to make money with that. It torpedoed my respect for angel investment. Anything "social" gets money, something that can revolutionize the whole Internet experience, zip.

<comment><USER4> I honestly thought that was a Douglas Adam-style parody (from one of the later books). Holding all your passwords in one place (no matter how secure) creates a single point of vulnerability.

I do think that it's (theoretically) possible to safely store (in some respects) your data online, through encryption... but this doesn't protect you from innocent data loss (e.g. act of god, bankruptcy, incompetence, bad luck etc).

Why not store all your data locally _as well_ , so it's distributed git-style, and only use the cloud for crunching/archive? This is the model that Google (google gears) and Adobe are moving towards (though I thought their main motivation was so you could work off-line). HDD are unbelievably cheap, and getting cheaper and cheaper... Gmail gives you 7GB for free - wow, that's so much! - but how much do you have at home already?

There's no shortage; it's just convenience.

That startup's PR connection with Stallman (that they use GPLv3, they talked to Stallman and are concerned about the same problems) seems tenuous and disingenuous to me (though I didn't investigate in depth).

I still think it might be a parody.

<comment><USER5> Please try it before bad mouthing a very clever and working project.

They don't forbid you from storing things things locally. And it isn't just for passwords. This is for anything really. Watch their presentations at least.

<comment><USER4> OK, I just went through their presentation at your request, and I have the same opinion. I'm not the only one, according to their own page here: [http://www.clipperz.com/users/marco/blog/2007/12/24/how_dumb...](http://www.clipperz.com/users/marco/blog/2007/12/24/how_dumb_are_we)

I know something about public/private key encryption (or once did). I'm not criticizing that, but their application of it. In their presentation, they say that they picked passwords as the hardest possible test of their idea (i.e. the one people are least likely to accept). I think this is where the _"parody"_ aspect comes in, with their professed motive of proving a point, rather than picking the most likely candidate for adoption.

I wasn't bad-mouthing them, but listing definite concerns. You might see the Douglas Adams reference as "bad-mouthing", except that what I'm referring to is his fictional idea of storing all your identification/passwords as one - i.e. what these guys are doing. I also don't think it's bad-mouthing to state my opinion that their PR connection to Stallman is tenuous, since they promote online storage in his name - which he appears to oppose (in the very article we are commenting on, I might add).

But of course, they still could change the world through their ideas, ideology or technology - everyone has that chance if only they take it. I strongly believe in encouraging anyone who takes action (so it would be really cool if they proved me wrong - and I'd have something to learn which would be a bonus for me). But I also think it's important to discuss ideas with intellectual honestly. Those two views are at odds sometimes, and I don't always know how to resolve them.

If you disagree with my criticism, you could focus on refuting it instead of labeling it as "bad-mouthing".

<comment><USER5> This is better. You can of course disagree, but the opening line of your previous comment was quite childish and inflammatory, don't you agree?

<comment><USER4> I should add that when I wrote that line:

 _I honestly thought that was a Douglas Adam-style parody (from one of the later books)._

I wasn't trying to put the project down with that, but reporting my reaction to the site - I actually was laughing along with (what I thought was) their parody for a few minutes (it seemed, though maybe shorter). I don't recall when I started to think they might be serious, but it might been when I saw their page "How dumb are we?", and they were defending their position...

It's true that it would have been more diplomatic to conceal my reaction.

Also, I searched around for a reference to the Douglas Adams passage, but couldn't find it (I couldn't find my copy at home - all my books are in boxes). I'm pretty sure it's near the start of "Mostly Harmless", as a product of the "Infinidim" corporation, and something to do with a multi-dimensional bird... I would like you to see it, because then I think then you'd have a clear sense of my point of view (independent of your dis/agreement with it)

Incidentally, labeling a comment as "childish" and "inflammatory" provides little information about the subject, and more about the emotional state of the labeler (I am sorry to have upset you). Giving the reasons for that emotional state are often a more compelling refutation - that is, if you can see the reasons (I find that very hard myself).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've been thinking about this lately - about giving all of your data to a third party and hoping they don't go out of business or erase your account (for whatever reason).

Issues of software freedom aside, I think the key to making people trust the cloud is to make the data contained in the services more transitive. Essentially, creating a standard Import/Export for the web. i.e. - If I decide to switch to vimeo for my web video needs, I'd like to be able to import all of my videos from youtube without much fuss (or make a local backup). That's not a great example, but it's the general idea.

Hmmm...after I think about it, this pretty much boils down to: "let me get at my data in a format that I can read."

<comment><USER7> What's wrong with having the company charge you (and all users) enough to make their service profitable, and having a contract between you that they wont erase your data without sending you a copy first?

Keeping your personal data on a free account might be a bit of a crapshoot, but keeping your company data on a paid for service account shouldn't be.

<comment><USER6> Nothing wrong with that at all - that actually sounds really reasonable. Is anybody doing this? I'm getting to the point where I'd pay for most of the stuff that I'm getting for free now - if I had some sort of contract that would give me some recourse in case things go awry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You can see the trap he's talking about as one possible future on the horizon --I don't think we're there yet, and it will take continuing to be vocal about our concerns to keep the benefits from turning sour.

The 2 main potential problems with your data being in the cloud versus on your own computer seem to be 1) privacy and 2) portability. Privacy long-term seems to be a tough nut to crack, and seems to depend mostly on choosing companies we feel we can trust. Data portability will only win out against walled gardens when users scream for it loud enough rather than go along using whatever service (such as Facebook) despite your data being locked in.

But the benefits we get from using the cloud for storage and computation are going to be difficult to ignore, despite the above concerns, and big brother is going to be constantly creeping in as long as the people continue to be scared into letting him.

I can see this being a problem for consumers long-term. But it doesn't do any good to hear that Larry Ellison has come out strongly in favor of keeping your data in-house.

</comment><comment><USER9> He's kind of like our own modern day Don Quixote. Except he tilts at clouds.

</comment><comment><USER10> I like this article.

Its like saying "Lets not use banks cause they can just take your money, profit from it, and may not even give it back to you." Which, ironically, is true because of the financial crisis.

The solution though is not to "use in-house computers" (or store your money under a mattress). I think it would be to build your own cloud computer services based on a free software model.

<comment><USER11> Easier said than done. Like building your own currency or financial system, it is easy to create a toy and very difficult to scale this out where you have to deal with trust issues, counter-party risk, and transactional overhead. Free software is easy, free hardware and bandwidth is not.

<comment><USER12> It is not necessary to use open source software to be able to protect your data (provided the applications have an API or some method of exporting your data in a parsable format). It's also not difficult to build your own secure, replicable network in the Cloud. Get a Linode and a Slicehost, install a Notes server on them both, keep your data locally and in two secure, encrypted automated backups in the Cloud. Whenever you don't have access to your local Notes, you can even have elected to make all or just portions of your data available via a browser and https.

addendum: Forgot to mention, total cost for the Notes client and server licenses: about $150 for 1 user but any number of servers. And Notes will run on Windows, Linux, OS X, ...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Unfortunately they're using the term "Cloud computing" when they really mean "Software as a service". I could be wrong, but I think RMS would have no problem with people using open-source software to manage their data on a rented slice at Slicehost or Amazon.

<comment><USER14> > I think RMS would have no problem with people using open-source software ...

... as long as they made sure to call it _free software_ , of course.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> It really just depends on if there will be market competition or not. Desktop processing could suffer the same closed system-high-price fate if there weren't any competition in the hardware market (IE: Intel vs. AMD). The question isn't really cloud vs. clientside, it's Company A's cloud Vs. company B or C or D. As he said, it's mostly branding and the underlying technology exists and is pretty freely available so my sense is that cloud computing could be a more competition-rich marketplace than clientside processing is today since it's pretty dang tough to build chips.

</comment><comment><USER16> He's generalizing. Cloud computing _must_ involve locking away files in the cloud? Depends entirely on the company/organization you're doing business with. There's no reason a cloud app can't provide export features as well as a local Gears-like presence. There could even be an open source app operating in the cloud (like a free App Engine app) with full data dumps to your local computer.

</comment><comment><USER17> _His comments echo those made last week by Larry Ellison, the founder of Oracle, who criticised the rash of cloud computing announcements as "fashion- driven" and "complete gibberish"._

I _never_ expected Richard Stallman and Larry Ellison to agree on something involving the software industry.

Granted they agree for very different reasons.

</comment><comment><USER18> The majority of users out there do not have the computer savvy that Richard Stallman has. What about my mother who's hard drive is always on the brink of failure and doesn't care to know what's involved in properly backing up her photos or documents? I encourage her to use services like flickr and Gdocs for this reason. The benefits far outweigh the drawbacks like privacy or portability. Anything that is so sensitive or important is on paper and in a fireproof safe like it should be. Don't get me started on Privacy.. what are you people doing that's so sensitive??

Until every computer user has sys-admin capabilities, making use of the "cloud" makes perfect sense in my opinion. That being said, I think its important to pick services you trust and who make it easy to export your data at will.

<comment><USER19> data loss and temporary outages at those big companies are not unheard of.

using flickr to share your photos with everyone is not the same as using google docs to store all of your personal and private documents.

but why not simply set your mother up with an automatic online backup system to store a copy of her files in the cloud instead of requiring that the master copies be there? that way she retains privacy (assuming the encryption of the provider is trusted) but gains portability by having a copy available online. something like dropbox comes to mind here.

<comment><USER18> Should we also home-school our children, keep our money under our mattress, grow our own food, give ourselves medical exams? There are companies/service providers out there who we outsource those things to because we don't have the time or the expertise. Seriously people have been using web-based email for over a decade. I've yet to hear of any doomsday failures but I do know I've had a couple hard drive failures during that time span.

<comment><USER20> > Should we also home-school our children, keep our money under our mattress, > grow our own food, give ourselves medical exams? There are companies/service > providers out there

grow some salad greens and tomatoes and eat those instead of McDonalds?

self check for breast or testicular cancer (whichever applies)?

take an active role in your child's education? I should hope so.

I'll give you the money under the mattress point. No return on investment. However you should be managing it yourself in some form.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I don't see a problem with applications in the cloud not giving source, as long as the data is portable and there are still desktop equivalents.

Gmail going down for good isn't gonna affect me much if I have my email backed up locally and desktop clients still exist.

</comment><comment><USER22> Well... it is impossible to deny that the whole 2.0 social/sharing/blabla is possible with resident applications, distributed by definition in users PCs, faster, without javascript magics.

<comment><USER11> It is equally impossible to deny the fact that it is much harder to get a user to download and install software than it is to offer the same features and services via the browser. Unless you are interacting with the user/OS/hardware in a way that cannot be duplicated via the browser a web-based solution will always have a larger audience than a resident application.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I don't see a problem with cloud computing, as long as the software that runs the cloud is Free. That way, when my provider dies, I can easily host it myself or get another provider.

</comment><comment><USER24> What is Richard Stallman's stance on the electric utilities?

<comment><USER25> Electricity is a commodity. There's no inherent "freedom" lost in paying someone to give it to you, any more than there is for buying your bread from a market instead of growing your own wheat.

The proper analogy would be not to electricity in general, but to (in the US) 220V 60Hz two-phase alternating current. What if you could only buy that power format from one vendor, who then decided to increase the price or change the format such that you'd have to replace all your existing electrical hardware or be at their mercy? Then you might feel that your freedom to operate your equipment was being infringed, no?

<comment><USER24> Ya, the vendors of alternating current are the electrical utilities. And the issues your talking about happened in the 1880s, between Edison's DC vs Teslas's AC. Obviously 110V AC won (not 220V) and market forces and regulation have kept that standard and the price stable.

The point is that if we feel okay paying for electricity as a service, why not computing? Data ownership and security is one reasonable concern but they're not show stoppers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Seriously, is that a bird in his hair?

</comment><comment><USER27> Stallman is a commie crackpot and everybody knows it. No respectable business person of note takes him seriously.

You can't have Falstaff, and have him thin.

Meaning, you can't have superior computing power like the "cloud" provides and expect to retain total transparency/privacy. Something has to give. I think it is inevitable in the long run that business will decide that the help to their bottom line that the cheap resources of the "cloud" provides offsets any theoretical leftist concern about transparency, privacy, etc.

Asking everyone to do their own computing is like going back to an agrarian culture where everyone grows their own food. Seem to recall Pol-Pot tried that, and I don't think history looks upon him too favorably. 'Nuff said.

<comment><USER28> _you can't have superior computing power like the "cloud" provides and expect to retain total transparency/privacy. Something has to give._

Sure, but some people would prefer to give on price rather than privacy. Hopefully the market will continue to offer that choice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> "But Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation and creator of the computer operating system GNU ..."

Huh ? "creator of the computer operating system GNU"

Can somebody explain what that means ?

<comment><USER30> _GNU is a computer operating system composed entirely of free software._ ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU> ).

It is a common misconception to call Linux-based systems "Linux". Linux is the kernel, the piece that manages devices, processes, and memory. GNU is a collection of tools (GNU ls, GNU Bash, GNU C Compiler, etc.).

What the user sees is the set of GNU and non-GNU tools running on top of the Linux kernel. This is the reason why rms insists on people calling their system "GNU/Linux" and not only "Linux".

RMS started GNU in 83-84: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU#History>

<comment><USER31> The Linux kernel is not the entire environment. The set of GNU licensed tools and applications is not the entire environment. Gnu + Linux is not the entire environment.

Those who care are aware of the distinction between "Linux" the kernel and "Linux" the environment built upon a Linux kernel. Those who don't are unlikely to be aware of the derivation or importance of either term. Of those who care few are willing to use his terminology.

This is not what I would consider a "misconception."

In my opinion Stallman does his cause damage by tilting at this particular windmill.

<comment><USER32> The same personality traits that cause him to spend inordinate amounts of time focusing on pedantic bits of terminology are the same ones that allow him to persevere in hammering home the same basic message over and over for 25 years in the face of setback after setback.

<comment><USER31> You're probably right. But it makes me uncomfortable that this is the FSF's official line, not just Stallman's private rant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Stallman is a jackass, says rest of the world.

Seriously, what a drama queen. This week it's cloud computing.

The article seems to confuse software freedom with control over personal information --- two distinctly different concerns. The latter actually relevant.</comment>


Java Forever: "Dad, why do we always use .Net?" - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZfmF7hfVSE

<comment><USER2> Yeah, you can't do any tuning in .NET whatsoever... right.</comment>


Anxiety nightmare comes true for pianist at competition - who-knows https://www.inquirer.com/news/curtis-institute-music-20190721.html <comment><AUTHOR> I was on the drill team in ROTC and in the middle of one of our maneuvers where we needed to make some adjustments to the rifle strap, my buddy's just completely fell to the ground in about 3-4 pieces. It made a huge clatter. He stood there stone faced and unmoving, at attention while the rest of the platoon finished the maneuver. The judges, three intense USMC gunnery sergeants, just stared at my friend.

When the rest of the team was done, our commander calmly said "MIDN X, fix yourself." He bent down precisely, threaded the strap and snapped back to attention.

Then we moved forward with the drill card. We got first place among 150+ teams.

It's what happens amidst the unexpected that defines success.

<comment><USER2> But this is surely not the optimal behavior during a battle, right?

<comment><AUTHOR> The military term is called "bearing" and what its intended to teach is to "keep your head" even in the midst of the unexpected (which pretty much defines combat). Instead of freaking out, take stock of what's happening around you and make a decision that accomplishes the strategic directive. In close order drill, it's maintaining discipline and conformity. In the fluidity of the battlefield, it may be different, but the mindset is the same.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The classical example of expecting another piece is when Maria Joao Pires performed in Amsterdam and only during the orchestra introduction figured out her mistake. See her reaction on Youtube [1]. As opposed to the article above, she hadn't performed this piece in over a year.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS64pb0XnbI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS64pb0XnbI)

<comment><USER4> I'm amused that she still looks like she's feeling despair even while she is seemingly crushing it.

Perhaps I'm missing some nuance though.

<comment><USER3> It's a long piece, so she's probably afraid she'll forget a passage later on.

<comment><USER5> It's super impressive that people can play music like that form memory, I mean there's got to be thousands or tens of thousands of notes in there.

<comment><USER6> You can remember music like that too. Take any song you've listened to many times - I'm pretty sure if someone changed one note, or one word, you'd notice immediately.

Of course, actually _playing_ those notes while you remember them is harder...

<comment><USER7> Eventually, it becomes muscle memory. At least for me, I start memorizing pieces from high-level to bottom, but eventually once I played it from memory too many times, I struggle to remember or recall high-level concepts and phrases and other things about the piece. But once I sit down and put my hands on the keyboard, it all comes back as I play through muscle memory.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The article initially makes it sound like the pianist was caught completely off-guard when the band started playing a different song to what he had rehearsed.

If you read further, however, you discover that the pianist had actually prepared to play both songs, but that their order had been switched, which is a significantly less dramatic story.

<comment><USER9> Agreed - the title of "Anxiety nightmare" also isn't accurate based on the actual story they outline.

I know that clickbait sells and all, but even "Wrong song played for pianist..." would be better and mostly accurate.

<comment><USER10> Without reading the article you would assume this is about a pianist that forgot their pants and only realized about it when in front of the audience.

<comment><USER11> I thought it would be about walking out on stage and realising he wasn't wearing any trousers

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The detail that this article misses is that the unuxpected piece has about 1 second of orchestral warning before the pianist comes in with a dramatic entrance. So Tianxu had about that long to figure out what to do, in contrast to Maria Joao Pires, who had a minute to calm her nerves before playing the wrong Mozart concerto.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYXtZ26cOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYXtZ26cOk)

</comment><comment><USER13> When I was in junior high, I found out an hour before my percussion auditon that I'd been told to prepare the wrong piece. It ended up being fine (they agreed to judge me on the piece I had prepared, and I even won a seat), but for an eleven-year-old at his first major auditon, it did seem like quite an anxiety nightmare.

<comment><USER14> When in high school I was part of a 3-student team to compete in local economy olympics. The competition was public and 3-person teams represented respective school in a public venue.

Only a day before the competition we were told a mistake was made and it actually was "ecology" competinion and not about economy at all.

We still beat most schools in the region and finished third, including beating a school that had a class specialized in ecology.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Can't have been that bad... At least he was wearing pants!

<comment><USER16> Yeah that's what I was thinking of.

<comment><USER17> Why is that what you were thinking of? I know a guy who put on his socks and shoes to get to piano practice, wondering why his mom and sister were laughing during the whole car ride...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I was expecting some kind of "has a stroke, suddenly forgets the connection of piano keys to music notes" story. Thankfully the real story was less anxiety- inducing :)

</comment><comment><USER19> Is there any chance that this was done on purpose?</comment>


Cold fusion rears its head as 'E-Cat' research promises to change the world - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/06/e-cat-cold-fusion <comment><USER2> The article mentions an analysis by Nyteknik, a Swedish science periodical. That analysis (in English) is at [http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article32...](http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece) . It's easy to see that it was not a detailed analysis, and it concludes "Ny Teknik's conclusions disclose no hard scientific evidence, but should be viewed as a summary of our preliminary observations."

The comment by "popeye" shows how incomplete the analysis is.

Even more information is available from <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer>

</comment><comment><USER3> This is so dumb! I stopped reading after they mentioned this e-cat worked with hydrogen.

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is not available in nature and has to be produced with .... power.

<comment><USER2> I'll translate that into something a bit more correct: "Hydrogen gas is not an abundant energy source. While there are some (rare) natural sources of hydrogen, it's usually made artificially, which takes energy. The energy cost in production is therefore more than the gain in burning it."

That is, however, moot, since hydrogen fusion turns hydrogen into helium. (Note that there was nothing in the article showing a detectable trace of helium trace; that being a key data point in the Fleischmann and Pons paper which was eventually tracked down to coming from another lab in the same building.)

Fusion consumes hydrogen, and gives off a lot more energy than needed to disassociate hydrogen from water. This hydrogen can then be used as feed for the fusion step.</comment></comment>


New SkyDrive - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdhB2u2mOLM&feature=player_embedded

<comment><USER2> This looks great, but Microsoft really needs to get focused on marketing this to the public. I never would have thought to use skydrive (even though I have a wp7) until I saw this video, but it won't appeal to the average user.</comment>


The Wikipedia of Long Tail Programming Questions - <AUTHOR> http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/01/the-wikipedia-of-long-tail-programming-questions/

<comment><USER2> Off topic, but to me personal, what has become an even bigger annoyance is floods of newbies (< 10 reputation points) that ask a question and _never_ come back to tick off the correct answer. Some of them even write a comment to thank the poster of a particular answer, but still they won't give them the credit they deserve. I wonder if that's because they're so new that they don't know they're supposed to mark the correct answer, of if they just don't care.

It happened to me once or twice, but I've seen the pattern in other threads, too. Of course SO should be a platform that welcomes beginners, but if that problem persists, I fear that competent people will hesitate investing the time and effort to answer questions for which they may never be rewarded.

<comment><USER3> There's an easy solution here - don't answer newbie questions.

Their questions are typically less complex, which means some other newbie trying to amass points will take care of it.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, that's what it boils down to - but I have to say deep down I don't really like that idea.

Often times, the questions asked by people new to SO are legitimate questions, and not necessarily your typical "newbie question" à la _How do I run a compiler?_ So I'm not talking about 101 or RTFM questions.

We all started out as newbies at some point, but also, just because someone hasn't got a lot of reputation points on SO doesn't necessarily mean that they're a newbie programmer.

I believe that SO should be a place where everyone can ask a question whether you're new to programming or an old-timer. If it's a thorough question it deserves a thorough answer. But then that answer deserves due credit, too - whether it's me or someone else answering.

<comment><USER3> Send me a list of your orphaned answers and I'll upvote em (subject to quality review).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> They're not being entirely consistent on this. [http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/11/dr-strangedupe-or- how-...](http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/11/dr-strangedupe-or-how-i- learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-duplication/)

Jeff in November: _"Having one "perfect" form of a question that contains every possible answer to every slight variation of that question is a myth at best and actively harmful at worst"_

Joel, this month: _"Don't answer questions that have already been answered elsewhere"_

<comment><USER5> I think it's clear that there's a sweet spot that's not at either extreme. There's naturally going to be discussion about where exactly it lies.

Thanks for that link. In case anyone else is interested, here are his "official guidelines":

1\. Having one "perfect" form of a question that contains every possible answer to every slight variation of that question is a myth at best and actively harmful at worst.

2\. Having dozens and dozens of variations of the same question is clearly bad.

3\. What we want is on the order of 4 or 5 similar-but-not-quite-the-same duplicates to cover all possible search terms and common permutations of the question. It is also OK for these duplicates to have their own answers so people who find them don't have to click yet again to get to a good answer.

<comment><USER4> I'm happy to keep duplicate questions in the system, even if it means I repeat myself when I answer them.

But question askers need to show that they've done a little research first: if I can type a few words from the OP's question into Google and get a reasonable response, then the question's a candidate for closing.

(One phenomenon I've seen is "I don't believe it unless I see it on Stack Overflow". Somehow a Stack Overflow answer is better than the same information posted elsewhere...)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _Don't answer questions that have already been answered elsewhere. Yeah, you might earn a couple of points of reputation, but..._

Doesn't this just suggest that the reputation points system needs tweaking.

<comment><USER3> Maybe.

There isn't necessarily a points-based incentive system that will achieve the desired goal here, at least without breaking something else.

You can consider points and social norms as combining to form a global incentive system that is more robust (but less well defined) than a strictly points-based system.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Does anyone know whether from an SEO perspective it's better to have fewer pages with more content on each or more pages? As a user I prefer more content on one page so I'm glad Stackoverflow is approaching this problem from a wiki standpoint.

</comment><comment><USER7> Solving this problem has been a pet project of mine for some time.

There's some solution space between a forum and a wiki. You need a question- based navigation, with common questions pulled out, multiple answers and viewpoints, and all of it rated and commented on.

To put that structure in a forum involves too much overhead. to put that information in the structure of a wiki involves too much editorializing.

I've seen many attempts at coming at this from a strict UI standpoint, as mentioned in the article, but I have never felt that they worked that well. There's also the issue of whether a question is an actual duplicate or is different, or if the difference really matters. All of this is pointed out in the article.

I know I got tired of folks asking about book recommendations on HN and finally wrote an app that keeps track of what hackers recommend to each other. I tried to base the entire site of navigating from common questions to books that help answer those questions. I'm not entirely happy with the solution, but I find that trying to write a solution in code many times helps with the problem more than just talking/writing about it.

Looking forward to hearing more about this as the community continues to engage the problem.

<comment><USER8> > I've seen many attempts at coming at this from a strict UI standpoint, as > mentioned in the article, but I have never felt that they worked that well.

What is the problem with UI approaches, do you think?

<comment><USER7> I _think_ there is a tension between the user's desire for simplicity and the underlying complexity of the data involved.

So the user thinks: "I want to know how to fix X". But it's never really what they want to know. It's always something different.

This is the same problem software development teams face when asked to fix something. Simply because you can state it in a sentence does not mean you are communicating to me all I need to know to help you.

<comment><USER9> Very much so. This problem only gets bigger as people get more technically sophisticated. Most people are satisficers (when the first idea pops up that could even remotely fix the problem they stop thinking about more solutions) and they tend to force that on others as well. It's rare for people to be able step back and state their problem in a pure form, instead people like to state their problem in the form of an unimplemented solution (thinking that makes it easier).

Developers who aren't skilled in recognizing or dealing with this sort of thing are at a significant disadvantage. If you naively implement all of the random satisficed solutions people submit to you as "problems" you end up with an incoherent and conflicting mess.

<comment><USER7> Agreed.

From painful experience I'm happier with the idea of providing a reading list to somebody than simply trying to come up with some kind of immediate quick answer to a loosely-worded question.

A book author sets the table: he provides background, vocabulary help, and a context. Inside of all of that, he can discuss the issue from multiple angles and provide advice. There's depth: you take time to understand where the author is coming from. In return he provides you in-depth advice in the area you are interested in. More than that: good authors teach you how to _think_ about solving problems in a particular area.

Instead of that format, on the net we have hit-and-run McDonalds sagacity. Questioners don't have time for a book. They have some random problem and Google is their friend. As a responder, I'm just some schmuck on the internet, busy doing other things and mostly distracted. I'm taking all of 30 seconds to guess what the person's problem might be, then fitting it all into some random mood and context I brought along with me. No matter how smart I am, it's just not the same. It's useful at times, no doubt, but it's not the same. I don't think the social networking paradigm translates over well to advice-giving. Heck, even with book authors I find that the quality varies quite a bit, and that's folks that take months to address an issue.

Again, I'm not saying these sites aren't valuable: I use them all the time. I just think we may put too much stock into the first returns from a Google or SO search. Trying to add structure to the process isn't going to necessarily make it better. If voting and friends work for sharing jokes and links, and they work for forming a community, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are the bedrock for creating a valuable structure to answer repeat questions. When we discuss this we might be like the guy who has a hammer and can do anything -- as long as all the problems are nails. (In other words we know the answer is going to be a tweet or a quick reply reused from a previous question, we just are trying to figure out how big of a hammer/format/magic we need to make it all work)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Does Stack Overflow give points to users who follow these guidelines?

</comment><comment><USER11> Discoverability.

Discoverability, discoverability, discoverability.</comment>


Ask HN: Web development business workflow? - <AUTHOR> Hi,
I am student/beginner in web development (PHP, JS, HTML, CSS, WordPress), and I want to ask here some experienced developers (freelance and agency guys) about 'business workflow' in web development; primary about web site development.
How do you price projects? How do you get clients? Do you buy WordPress templates from marketplaces (like Themeforest) and use them on projects? How do you price SEO and maintenance?
Pardon me for ignorance and bad English. <comment><USER2> 1\. Take who the client is, think about how much I like the job, how technically hard it is, how long I'd be at it and the deadline they want and a few other variables then pick a figure from the air that seems good.

2\. Word of mouth or chatting to people in person.

3\. Fuck no. Faster for me to build a custom site than to wrangle with someone's theme that's been built for the lowest common denominator.

4\. A good SEO setup is included in the cost, but I don't write the headlines, meta desc, etc. If I am, that's extra.

Agency for 2 years, Freelance for about 5 in total.

<comment><USER3> My process is very similar. With 4) I charge a yearly maintenance/managed service fee.

<comment><USER4> How do you figure how much to charge? Do you give them x amount of hours a year, use it or lose it? Or structure it some other way?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hi, i´m a freelance web developer, small agency owner and instructor for six years now. Here´s my experience:

How do you get clients? (Comes before How do you price projects) \- Usually from connections from previous work. Any kind of work. I´m a instructor, for example. Some student's ask for my work if they can´t do it. Or old clients recommends my work. Friends usually indicates my work too. \- Internet Marketing myself and my business on Google Adwords and SEO.

How do you price projects? \- That´s hard. Too many ways. None is the RIGHT way, i think. Usually i charge R$75,00 to R$100,00 hour (like US$35.00/hour). It´s even harder to predict how much time will be spent in a project. Experience helps a lot here.

Do you buy WordPress template? \- Yes, for small projects or projects that don´t demands much customization. \- No, for bigger projects (because i can spend money with my team (i have a frontend designer, a backend coder and a marketing assistant). For projects that´s demand too much customization (startups, business ideas and like) it´s better to code your theme from scratch.

How do you price SEO and maintenance? \- The client indicates his monthly budget for the task (site maintenance, for example). My team works X hours according to their budget and our hour rate.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for answer; Do you charge clients upfront or?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Your English is fine and learning is an important part of Hacker News.

<comment><USER4> I agree, I would have never guess English wasn't your first language if you didn't mention it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> 1\. For projects pricing time and your hourly rate. 2. Getting projects try elance.com/freelancer.com/guru.com 3. Depending on your clients.</comment>


Namesake Is The Match.com For Professional Opportunities - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/27/namesake-is-the-match-com-for-professional-opportunities/

<comment><USER2> Interesting idea, it was only a matter of time before someone applied the "Social Graph + foo" idea to jobs.

The jobs space is pretty crowded & competitive though, we already have:

       - obvious places like LinkedIn or craigslist
       - freelance sites like odesk or elancer
       - Q&A sites like stackexchange
       - portfolio sites are getting in (github)
       - expert/consultant sites like Gerson Lehrman
       - a ton of "job referral" sites that have failed or suck

And I can't imagine it would take much for LinkedIn to compete on any features they roll out.

That said, it's a big money industry. They're just going to need a massive marketing push to get people to actually use it.</comment>


Pivot.js - <AUTHOR> http://rjackson.github.io/pivot.js/ JavaScript pivot table lib I just used for a project: works fine. <comment><USER2> For me, with a maximized Firefox window in Ubuntu on my 1680x1050 laptop, the page is just _exactly_ the right length that when I get to the bottom of the page the subnav becomes sticky, and it's got margin bugs whereby it _doesn 't fill up the space where it was_ ( _surely_ Bootstrap got that right? Apparently not), which shortens the page length, causing it to come unsticky again... end result: I can't access the summary row at the bottom of the table.

<comment><USER3> Ditto, cannot scroll down the page.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> PivotTable.js [https://github.com/nicolaskruchten/pivottable](https://github.com/nicolaskruchten/pivottable) looks cool too.

</comment><comment><USER5> Nice work, it's very lightweight. I have a heavy pure javascript implementation exactly like excel at

webpivottable.com

bi2.io

If you want more functionality that Pivot.js in your web application, you can give it a try.</comment>


Every 10 days, I send out 1 inspiring startup story you can read in 60 seconds - <AUTHOR> http://for-starters.com/?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=hn-post-221117 <comment><USER2> great idea!

</comment><comment><USER3> love it!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!</comment></comment>


Anyone interested in saving lives by making a cheap/tiny one of these machines? - <AUTHOR> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-05/mc-mcc050211.php

<comment><USER2> In my experience, capnography is usually an accessory output available on a lot of commercial (and relatively expenseive) pulse oximetry machines. In a resuscitation scenario, the lack of a pulse doesn't necessarily mean the heart isn't working. A minimal level of end tidal CO2 concentration of expired air can indicate that exchange is in fact taking place in the lungs/pulmonary vasculature regardless of the presence of a pulse. This CO2 level has been used to predict outcome and help decide when to terminate resuscitation in such events.

Like pulse oximetry, capnography typically works by detecting infrared energy absorption at a specific wavelength compared to a reference energy source. One difficulty with the idea of making a cheap device that one might, for example, plug into a smart phone, is that unlike a pulse oximeter, you don't simply slip the energy source/detector over someone's fingertip - the capnographic sensor is usually adapted or otherwise attached to the endotracheal tube with which the person in extremis is intubated.

<comment><USER3> I don't follow the logic here.

Who is going to use this? If they drive a Big White Truck, an ordinary capnograph won't make it any bigger. Otherwise, they're not even trained to check for a pulse, because history shows they'll stuff it up in real life. (Real life refers to the first aider - it's most likely real death for the patient, no matter who treats them.)

<comment><AUTHOR> We don't want first-responders to have to open up the patient to know if the patient is dead or just mostly dead, and moving the patient into an emergency medical vehicle may not be the best first move. This would be particularly true for field medics in combat situations.

Ideally, a portable/cheap capnograph would be one part of a 21st century first-aid scenario, while the other parts might include automatic defibrillators and freezing blankets.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: I need a non-cryptic open source software license - <AUTHOR>

I'm searching for a software license that will allow any kind of derivative work only if it is released under the same license and only if attribution is given to the author (me).<p>I'm sure a license like this exists, however the cryptic nature of the majority of the licenses really turn me off and make it very hard for me to understand exactly what people can do with my code. <comment><USER2> Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike

<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/>

* Allowed to remix (create derivative works)

* Allowed to share (copy and distribute the work)

* Share alike (distribution must be under the same license)

* Attribution is required

<comment><AUTHOR> CC says you shouldn't release any code or software under their license.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3>
      http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category
      http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html

I believe you want an MIT license.

<http://www.opensource.org/licenses/MIT>

<comment><USER4> The MIT license doesn't require that derivative works also be released under the same license; you need a copyleft license for that kind of requirement.

<comment><USER3> You know, the boilerplate I used for MIT was a copyleft derivative and I never really glanced at the original.

<http://snk.tuxfamily.org/log/copyleft-mit-license.html>

contains the license I've used, but, is not the source where I grabbed the text. I should re-evaluate that. Thanks for the reminder.</comment></comment></comment>


UK Government response to "Repeal the new Surveillance laws" - <AUTHOR> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/173199? <comment><USER2> Brexit planted the seed, this pushed me over the edge. I'm done with this country, the amount of work required just for me to get on the property ladder even when I'm doing better than most people I know in the city is ridiculous and for what?

<comment><USER3> But where is there to go?

<comment><USER4> One of many UK expats in the Netherlands here, definitely recommend joining us. You don't even need to know Dutch before you move here (some people never learn it).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13035996](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13035996)

This is just to have a chance to read the response.</comment>


Coronavirus: Russian hackers target Covid-19 vaccine research - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53429506 <comment><USER2> It's hard to take those cries of "Russian hackers" seriously. It feels like a joke.

<comment><USER3> Which part? This is a report identifying breaches from a specific group (APT29) and the relevant signatures to detect them. They are releasing this to warn private companies of breaches.

I don't see how it's a "joke" to release a report that could benefit the security posture of an organization. Isn't that what our governments' cyber security groups should be doing?

<comment><USER4> Can we change the title to "Hacker group APT29 targets ..."?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's the full advisory [https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/Advisory- APT29-targets-COVID-1...](https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/Advisory- APT29-targets-COVID-19-vaccine-development.pdf)

<comment><USER6> To me this whole report basically translates to "Someone did a nmap/nessus scan of some IPs and some people received phishing e-mails". And I really hope we won't ever have an actual real war over some Citrix admins not updating their internet facing systems and some employees clicking some spam e-mail...

<comment><USER5> ?

The point of the report is to provide the IOCs for the WellMail malware, which has never been reported before

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> As long as they only spy without actually disrupting the whole process, I don't really perceive it as a bad action from the ethical point of view. Legally, of course, it's a completely different issue.

<comment><USER8> >Legally, of course, it's a completely different issue

You mean vaccinate your population at a price every Russian can afford, or buy it at western prices?

<comment><USER7> Yes, I think it would be a perfect example of an action that is both illegal and at the same morally positive.

<comment><USER8> Nice...on the same line!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> When did hackernews become a cheap news site?

<comment><USER10> This site also includes things of general interest; as far as it goes here; remove that and everyone would just harp about the "why we sleep" book or some common trope that's so stereotypical without the rest of this stuff.

It would be all about that book, and a few other stereotypes, or cliches, if it weren't for certain of this other things.

So this is stimulating. That story is 'current,' by the way, whichever way we swing it. So whatever; enjoy the show.</comment></comment>


Elon Musk's highflying 2018: What 150,000 miles in a private jet reveal - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/elon-musks-highflying-2018-what-150000-miles-in-a-private-jet-reveal-about-his-excruciating-year/2019/01/29/83b5604e-20ee-11e9-8b59-0a28f2191131_story.html <comment><USER2> "a glimpse at the wild life of America's most polarizing tech superstar, underscoring the chaos of a year in which he savaged his enemies as idiots and pedophiles, smoked weed during a live interview and got sued by federal authorities accusing him of misleading investors"

 _makes popcorn_

 _watches fanboys ' heads explode_

</comment><comment><USER3> garbage</comment>


"I love shitty code that just gets the job done. This job probably isn't for me" - <AUTHOR> http://tomblah.posterous.com/i-love-shitty-code-that-just-gets-the-job-don

<comment><USER2> This old debate again? I suppose it's been a while since I've argued it, so I might as well jump in. :-)

It's incredibly naive to say that crappy code that gets the job done is generally good. Ok, sure. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves and write an ugly hack to get the job done. But if you keep it up, you spend more time maintaining the ugly hacks than you do coding new stuff.

So here's my advice:

1\. Stop. _Breathe_.

2\. Think about what you're doing before you do it.

3\. Do it.

This has worked wonders for me. It's incredible how easy it is to not write crappy code, and it pays off. And for the record, I'm one of the biggest instant gratification junkies I know. I'm not saying one needs to write good code because I don't want to get things done.

</comment><comment><USER3> Pride in what you produce is sometimes worth the extra effort :-)

</comment><comment><USER4> You may be confusing "shitty code" with prototyping.

<comment><USER5> Agreed. The minute you know the feature _does_ have traction and won't go away any time soon is the minute you clean or rewrite that code.

This may be semantics at some level, but I think it's important to not imply you just don't care about the quality of your code. Prototyping intentionally sacrifices some quality to prove a point quickly, but once the point is proven, you throw it away and rewrite with your normal, high standards.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think a lot of people in the "I hate crappy code" camp tend to spend too much time trying to fix seemingly crappy code, time that arguably would better be spent fixing other, more important bugs.

</comment><comment><USER7> "We'll do a rewrite later on ...", nope!</comment>


Emotion semantics show both cultural variation and universal structure - <AUTHOR> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6472/1517.abstract <comment><USER2> Interesting, but it doesn't get at the more important question of whether or not the same meanings can be communicated in different languages, whether with one word or several.

It seems to me that every language must be able to, for instance, convey that a situation is such that harm may occur. Perhaps it has one word like "danger" that covers all such situations, or different words for different types of harm that may occur, but the basic meaning is the same.</comment>


CLI tool to get corona data in the terminal - <AUTHOR> https://www.combatnerd.com/news/building-cli-tool-get-corona-data-terminal/ <comment><USER2> This does not look healthy

</comment><comment><USER3> Numbers for my country (Iceland) are incorrect.

</comment><comment><USER4> Luke Smith video?

<comment><USER5> I was literally just about to say the same thing. This is almost exactly a rip off of it

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> curl [https://corona-stats.online/](https://corona-stats.online/)

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm going to try that</comment>


IaaS provider positioning & Gartner Magic Quadrant - <AUTHOR> http://my-inner-voice.blogspot.com/2011/01/part-2-getting-out-of-trough-of.html

<comment><USER2> I'd say for Amazon having so much 'completeness of vision' they are pretty low on the ability to execute on Gartner's crappy chart.

Seriously, AWS is _crushing_ it: [http://venturebeat.com/2010/08/03/amazon- web-services-genera...](http://venturebeat.com/2010/08/03/amazon-web-services- generating-an-estimated-500m-in-revenue-thanks-in-part-to-growth-of-social- games/)

</comment><comment> luca-giovanni I very much enjoyed this post. Personally I don't particularly rate Gartner's 'Magic Quadrant' stuff but this non-Gartner blog post was a useful read for gaining a better understanding of what some of the real differences are between different IaaS providers.</comment>


IRC notifications via SSH and libnotify - <AUTHOR> http://mlomnicki.com/ruby/linux/2011/02/09/irc-notifications.html <comment><USER2> If you happen to be running ZNC for a persistent connection, another option would be to use my ZNC to Notifo module to send highlights and PMs to your mobile device and/or desktop:

<http://github.com/jreese/znc-notifo#readme>

<comment><USER3> ZNC is awesome. I have it setup to retain the last 200 lines of text on each channel and dump them out when I connect to the bouncer.

<comment><USER2> I use it to allow me to simultaneously run a persistent Irssi session and connect from AndChat on my phone, and they share a single IRC presence on the servers I use. It's a fantastic way to seamless move discussions between clients so that users on the other end don't have to deal with multiple nicks or interruptions as I move about.

With my ZNC module for Notifo, I have the client_count_less_than condition set to 2. This means that it will only send notifications if my phone isn't connected, even though my Irssi client always is. I haven't found any other method that's smart enough to allow me to do this.

<comment><USER3> I also use AndChat from my phone to hit the ZNC and carry conversations as I move between locations if needed. Good tips, thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> <https://awesome.naquadah.org/wiki/Irssi_tips>

(also: "/set beep_when_window_active ON" "/set beep_when_away ON")

I use irssi bell on message combined with tmux's status bar notification on bell from a panel. When I get a message, irssi sends a bell to the tmux panel, and the tmux status bar at the bottom signifies I should go check the window/panel irssi is running in. (tmux is a slightly more user friendly and horizontal/vertical split alternative to screen)

<comment><USER5> There's a Notifo script for irssi, too: <https://github.com/donnex/notifonotify>

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I used to do this with dzen, via:

<http://dzen.geekmode.org/dwiki/doku.php?id=dzen:irssi-notify>

Then I started using a combination of perl scripts to detect when my screen session was detached, and if I got a new message while my screen session was detached to send an SMS to my phone through email. These days however, I'm satisfied with simply logging all my notifications in a separate split irssi window and checking them when I feel like it.

</comment><comment><USER7> I do something similar. I run screen within screen; my top level screens are all separate remote hosts I connect to, each themselves running screen locally. On one remote host I run irssi and use screen's 'M'onitor feature to alert me when people are talking. I also 'M'onitor the hosts screen for activity. This is somewhat convoluted but works for me.

<comment><USER8> 'M' feature looks amazing. Thanks for the tip!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Neat! I've taken up using bip <http://bip.milkypond.org/> on my server and connecting with circe, an emacs irc client.

</comment><comment><USER10> i just have "urxvt.urgentOnBell: true" in my .Xdefaults so it raises the urgent hint of my window manager when someone says my name. never had the urge to get other notifications. cool solution, though.</comment>


Ask HN: What information do you consider before investing in a stock? - <AUTHOR> My startup is in the finance space and we're wondering what information is important to individual investors.
We have identified the first three aspects our tool will analyze: the quality of a stock's balance sheet, its history of generating cash and the amount of cash it generates compared to the amount it invests. We use proven value investing standards to grade each aspect.
What other information do you consider before investing in a stock? <comment><USER2> I do work as an analyst with a value approach.

Besides what you have listed above, I like to do a lot of comparisons to peers in the rest of their industry. So when I see an insurance company trading at 1/2 their shareholders' equity and the industry average is 1x, that is interesting.

I also like to see figures such as returns on invested capital (EBIT/NWC+PP&E), ROE, ROA, and things such as gross margins vs operating margins.

I like when I can get both EBIT and EBITDA relatively quickly as well.

I really really like to see how the numbers have developed and changed over time. If you go onto Morningstar you can get data on key figures over a 10 year period. You can find some really useful trends by looking at that data.

I do a lot of quick math when looking at a stock too. Such as calculating FCF and seeing what it versus the stock price (so P/FCF or FCF/P for yield).

<comment><AUTHOR> Jakarta, thanks for the feedback!

Our tool also calculates how much your stock is worth, so to be able to combine that with a relative value approach would be pretty powerful. We're adding it to the list!

We calculate Cash ROIC, not ROIC, because we believe cash is king. We'll take a look at ROE & ROA, but we also calculate FCF yield. When comparing gross to operating, what insight are you seeking to gain?

Yeah, Morningstar has solid data like that. We're planning to analyze how shareholders' equity & free cash flow have grown (or shrank) over the past 10 years.

Shoot me an email. It's in my profile. Or tweet @vurudotco . Your feedback would be great as we move forward!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Giving away all my secrets here, but anyway:

\- rate of stockholder's equity growth, over 10 years

\- a graph that projects that growth over the next 10 years, assuming I buy 1 share at today's price; plotted with a projection of the same dollar investment in an index fund (projected from its long-term return).

BONUS: do the same for earnings (I don't actually do this, but I should - because shareholder's equity is artificially influenced by things like 'goodwill' from acquisitions; and employees exercising bonus options. Earnings is closer to what a business actually does; I just really like stockholder's equity for its apparent simplicity).

<comment><USER4> Your secret is to pretend the next 10 years will be the same as the last 10 years?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> You've probably put this on your list already, but the beta value always works for me when just looking at price alone.

But for value investing, I try to do as much analysis of the business model, recent initiatives and the top execs as possible. Businesses don't make decisions, key people within businesses make decisions. This is a little wishy-washy, if you will, though -- it is Warren Buffet 101 on the other hand. Maybe you could develop some sort of quantification of top talent via some checklist or tiers of achievement.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback!

We're actually looking at ways of measuring management performance. If we can do it, it'll be great for Buffett fans everywhere, myself included!

Sign up on our website (<http://www.vuru.co>) or follow us on twitter @vurudotco to stay up to date as we move forward!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like to see _improvement_ in the company's fundamentals. For example, a decrease in net debt or an increase in economic value added.

Additional information is comparison to other stocks, such as within a related index (use GICS or similar codes). So how does the balance sheet compare to competitors?

As for other investment metrics, take a look at the Piotroski score:

[http://www.grahaminvestor.com/articles/quantitative- tools/th...](http://www.grahaminvestor.com/articles/quantitative-tools/the- piotroski-score/)

</comment><comment><USER7> I find most of my investments through 2 methods: general news as an indicator of future growth prospects, and through industry stalking. I am primarily interested in high capital growth and mostly invest in an industry peripherally related to my own work which I can keep tabs on through industry contacts (i.e. who's hot, who's not).

In both cases those methods yield potential investments which I then look at financials as a basic check - does this company's balance sheet and P&L indicate anything obviously dodgy? More importantly, do their accounts offer any insight as to how their business is actually going; in many cases I find this is not the case as through sufficient accounting manipulation little reflection of reality is left in the reported figures.

In terms of your service what I would like to see is some sort of graph of executive management & directors and their histories. I have a personal blacklist of individuals based on their ability to ruin companies, and I also have a few folks that I basically would invest in anything they do. This is largely industry specific though not always the case as there are folks from finance & legal backgrounds who end up being chairmen or directors across a wide variety of industries; this can be good for finding investments in new industries.

Another thing is the company's history, particularly (but not limited to) the balance sheet. In some cases future prospects look great but the company has burnt existing investors through heavily dilutive raisings (as an example). These holders will suppress any rise in price so for me that is a reason to stay clear despite everything else.

You asked about "before" but on-going is also important. For the small (speculative) companies that I invest in I try to stalk most of their staff; in particular I want to know if key members of staff leave (not necessarily executives); or if there is unusually high turnover. Tools like LinkedIn and Twitter have made this a lot easier but it would be great if it could be automated.

</comment><comment><USER8> I buy on the growth story in an industry I understand.

</comment><comment><USER9> I am very much a value investor too. I find a lot of the value investing techniques attempts to predict the probable price evolution of a stock and make a projection on its business performance. All these projections are based on the historical data and the assumption that it will continue to make money. But often the past did not equal the future, and most companies cannot continue to make the same 20% growth year on year.

Plus it also can't evaluate its management and internal business decisions such as M/A. And with the large cap these hedge funds are holding these days, they are quite capable of manipulating the stock prices for their gain.

What's also important is to understand the risk appetite of each individuals and have an investing plan? i.e. a value investor with a large risk appetite might be looking at citibank, make some assessment on its valuation and take a 5 yr plan on it with definite exit and cut loss prices.

</comment><comment><USER10> Indexes of technical analysis indicators for bullishness/bearishness. This should be done over multiple time periods, to evaluate whether the trend of a few hours or days is just a temporary pullback in a longer weeks-to-months progression. Technical analysis gives important information for timing position entries and exits - and if you screen on both the fundamentals and technicals, you have more tools to narrow things to a few top picks.

An example set of signals I might use to find a bullish stock: Upward-trending SMA-20 and SMA-50, 14-period RSI > 50, MACD 12-26-9 signal line under value line. If trading actively, enter when all signals are ready, exit as soon as one breaks. (haven't actually tried that particular system, but I know for a fact that similar systems work.)

</comment><comment><USER11> -Projected growth relative to peers

-Relevant industry multiple relative to peers

-Insider trades (Executive or board of director trades)

-Value catalysts such as M&A, restructuring, spin-offs, etc.

Other stuff really depends on specific industry, feel free to ask any follow- up questions

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback!

We're planning to provide a projected growth rate, but to be able to compare that to pgr of peers is a pretty cool idea.

Hmm, how would you measure value catalysts?

Shoot me an email. It's in my profile. Or tweet @vurudotco . Your feedback would be great as we move forward!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I consider how predictable the dividend is.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really like this idea.

What in particular would you like to know? If its steady or if its been growing over a number of years?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> OK, a bit late to the party but here's what I look at:

1) Calculate cash flow (EBITD) 2) Calculate total market value of the company (equity + debt - net cash) 3) Calculate price/cash flow. 4) Look at consensus growth rates for earnings/cash flow for the next 5-10 years. 5) Multiply by 100 6) Calculate Price/cashflow divided by 5 above. 7) My buy targets are values of 6) above of 0.7 or less. Sell target is above 1.0.

</comment><comment><USER14> I don't know if this fits with your startup, but something I'd really like to see is: given this set of transactions (basically, stock, date & time, buy/sell, price), here is a graph of the value of the portfolio over time. Ideally, you'd even include things like dividend pay outs, margin fees, etc.

This would make trying out different investment strategies and portfolio allocations much easier.

<comment><AUTHOR> We have a portfolio tracker that allows you to do exactly what you said. We don't (yet!) include dividend payouts and the like. We hope to add this in the future. The only hitch is that users aren't able to have several different portfolios (yet!), so you could try out one approach and then delete it and try another. I know it's tedious.. but we're bootstrapped!

Thanks for your feedback! And follow us on twitter @vurudotco

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry>

</comment><comment><USER16> I use an enhancement on the PE ratio where I take the average earnings over the past X years (between 5 and 7 usually) instead of just the most recent. That can accommodate short term fluctuations in an otherwise stable business.

Also the rate at which the dividend changes is important.

</comment><comment><USER17> Going by Value investing

\- Understand the competitive advantage of the business

\- See if it has a "moat" built around it

\- See its PE ratio and EPS. A company with a high EPS and a low P/E is always worth looking into.

\- How much cash the company has on its balance sheet, its a good idea to go for cash rich companies

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> And, just in case you're interested, sign up to be notified when we launch into private beta (<http://www.vuru.co>).

</comment><comment><USER18> Do you love the product or service? Google, Apple, ING..

Not all of them will be growth, but very stable investments. Starbucks, Costco, Southwest, ..

</comment><comment><USER19> I ask myself if the symbol is AAPL.

</comment><comment><USER20> There have been several studies/tests reported online where a parrot or a blind choice and then letting that investment sit outperformed "professional" traders so I guess all kinds of obscure analyzing methods can only get you so far.

At the end of the day you are always looking at historic data and from there you are trying to predict the future...</comment>


Using "and" and "or" in Ruby - <AUTHOR> http://avdi.org/devblog/2010/08/02/using-and-and-or-in-ruby/ <comment><USER2> I use this a lot. I dislike side effects in the subject clause of an if statement, so I used to rewrite:

        if user = User.find(...)
          ...
        end

as:

        user = User.find(...)
        if user
          ...
        end

I then got into the habit of using and:

        user = User.find(...) and begin
          ...
        end

It just seems to resemble something I'd say to a colleague: "user becomes blah blah blah and then we do this with it..." Likewise:

        user = User.find(...) or begin
          user = User.create(...)
          SecurityTheatre.starring(user)
        end

This looks to me like it says "find the user or create the user." The precedence of the words "or" and "and" seems obvious when you think of them as words rather than as operators, while the precedence of operators naturally seems higher/tighter.

JM2C...

<comment><USER3> I like your find-or-begin pattern, and I've used the or operator to pun that way before as well.

But just a note, the if x = ... is not a side effect unless the variable "x" already exists. There's not problem using that as a pun to get rid of lots of if nesting. Similarly if x &&= ... is very good for avoiding an if-cascade, albeit more obscure and perhaps less performant.

It's too bad there isn't a beautiful way to do monads or the thrush operator in Ruby.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> As per Tim Bray ([http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/06/29/No- Default...](http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2010/06/29/No-Defaults)), remembering this kind of nonsense is a waste of a perfectly good brain. Just don't bother.

<comment><USER5> I agree with you, but I always wonder if we discount memorization too much that it impedes learning a language. We can't expect all of a language to be "logical". There will be always quirks that have to be remembered. If we discount those parts that have to be remembered then have we shortchanged ourselves in mastery of a language? Warts and all?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Also see this blog post: _Logical operators in Perl and Ruby_ [http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/06/02/logical-operators- in...](http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2007/06/02/logical-operators-in-perl-and- ruby/)

</comment><comment><USER7> I knew this, but I always find it a rather disappointing choice in the language design, as I think its capacity for inspiring bugs rather outweighs its usefulness (which extends as far as making some parentheses unnecessary).

In a nutshell: there are two forms of the AND and OR operators, with different precedences; in many contexts, you can use them interchangeably; but in some, they'll behave differently, and could bite you.

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm slow this morning. That took me a couple of minutes to get the example.

'foo = 42 and foo / 2'

I was expecting an undefined variable since foo was never set because I was thinking of it as foo = (42 and foo / 2)

Basically I would write the example as this in 2 lines to avoid confusion and not use 'and':

foo = 42

foo / 2

Maybe another example in the article would have been better to show the power of 'and'.

<comment><USER9> Writing it in two lines would defeat the purpose of demonstrating the difference between && and 'and'.

<comment><USER10> Yep, that's an important point: you should probably have chosen a different example. The one you used will either make people say "it's a lot better to write it in two lines" or "oh, cool, I can write one liners like that".

Your post is explaining and demonstrating the use of "and" and "or", whose purpose is to allow idioms which rely on short-circuiting logic to control side effects, but that particular example didn't involve side effects _after_ the operator (which is the whole point).

Perhaps it would be a good idea to replace that example with one that shows what would happen if you used "and" in an "if". It would serve the same purpose as the one you have currently -- show the unintended effects of using the wrong flavor of operator -- without confusing people or unintentionally teaching bad practices.

<comment><USER11> I agree that the numeric example in the blog post was a bad one. The use of 'and' just looks confusing in that situation. You might try something like "foo = open_connection() and send_data()" instead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This seems like a kind of hack-y laziness, specifically in the form of a poor man's exception. It's no more "magic" than an if statement or any other kind of block. I would probably use this plenty if I were to use Ruby (Haskell has spoiled me for strict evaluation forever), but it definitely smells like language bloat -- you wouldn't need to tell me it's Perl-inspired for me to strongly suspect it.

</comment><comment><USER13> Yeah I've looked briefly at and before and not gotten it's use, this is awesome.

In a similar vein it's possible to just hang on a rescue at the end, very practical and easy to read, like in a view:

<% percent = (count /total.to_f * 100 ).round_with_precision(2) rescue 0 %>

</comment><comment><USER14> There's just too much semantic overload on those two operators. I myself have misread these before. When I use these operators, I always follow with "raise" or "begin". This customary usage is not going to cause confusion and covers 99% of their usage anyways.

</comment><comment><USER15> It works exactly the same in PHP, another twisted offspring of Perl.

</comment><comment><USER16> If you're relying on obscure not well known operator precedence rules, you are writing less maintainable code. It's as bad or worse than using meaningless variable or function names. Use parentheses so your code communicates your intention.

<comment><USER3> Except that it's not obscure at all. "and" and "or" exist specifically to facilitate this kind of code. That's their primary purpose.

And it's not like that's exactly unusual in the ruby language. Post- conditionals have a similar low precedence.

<comment><USER17> Is "this kind of code" worth it? It certainly is aesthetically pleasing and somewhat terse compared to a parenthesis jungle. But that does outweigh the fact non-experts don't know exactly what the statement is doing?

<comment><USER18> To anyone who learns the idiom, this code is fine, and perfectly readable. I don't even know Ruby yet, and it took me less than a minute to become fully comfortable with this kind of code. This isn't a huge barrier to "non- experts".

<comment><USER17> Of course it took under a minute, you were reading a nice blog post on the topic. The problem is not every instance of 'and' will include that information. And so I worry that if I drop 'and' into some minor glue script I write - it becomes less self documenting to my coworkers. It's a minor point, but it can become a slippery slope (see: perl)

<comment><USER3> This entire argument is moot. No one cares how obscure a language looks to someone who is not familiar with it. Do you regularly sit down and decide, "I am going to use a language I don't know to accomplish something essential and immediate?" And even if the answer is yes, then do you still not know the language at the end of that exercise?

This is a very simple, easily understandable and easily readable feature of Ruby. It's not obscure, complex, or even that unusual. Precedence is something every competent programmer needs to understand, and it should be part of every programmer's research to learn a new language. After all, this is a conversation about the existence of "and" & "or", not their abuse.

<comment><USER19> I used to be competent, but now I guess I avoid writing stuff that relies on _any_ knowledge of operator precedence.

I try to learn what I can of such precedence in the language of the day, since I will have to maintain other people's "code" (cypher?), but I try to write obvious "programs" (who is in this play, what are the acts?).

I've been at this over 2 decades, and it's much easier to read something that uses a few parentheses, a well named intermediate variable or two, or even a few functions, than it is to read bunch of multiple operators on the same line gobble-de-gook. Watching somebody else generate a hundred thousand dollars of wasted product in a manufacturing preparation process a few years back, due to such a run-on if-statement being fouled up, was also a good confirmation of this bias. I'm sure my current job in finance offers similar opportunities for expensive blunders.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Wow, honestly this article helped :), I really did think it was a synonym and did not realize the precedence implications.

</comment><comment><USER21> The logic for and/or vs. &&/|| is borrowed directly from Perl. It makes sense once you use them for a bit.

<comment><USER22> Maybe I'm not good at the context-switching between parsing things as operators versus as English, but I find them confusing in Perl except in some very simple idiomatic cases, where they're fine because I read them as boilerplate. The common _do_thing or die "error"_ idiom is perfectly readable, but anything more complex and I start explicitly reasoning about short-circuit semantics.

It's possible I have that reaction due to the strong negative consensus about using short-circuiting as control flow in C being hammered into my head at an early age, though.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to evaluate COTS software? - <AUTHOR> Any advice on how to do this critically, effectively and efficiently across distributed test teams? <comment><USER2> Here are a few things I would do (not exhaustive):

Before you or team members get "sold" on a particular vendor or product, write down (on a wiki, IM such as Slack, or other internally accessible spot) what your requirements are. For example, it must cost less than $x/user. or, we need features x, y and z, but feature a would be a nice-to-have. Also list any show-stoppers. (If it doesn't do z then the answer is "no", etc.)

Be aware that a cheaper/better product may not always get approval from the powers-that-be. Being able to show in terms that _matter to the powers-that- be_ why your pick is the best certainly helpful.

Use the criteria to help you narrow down the products you wish to trial (maybe the top 2-4). It is important to try out the product in the environment you intend to use it. Especially, if the cost of the software is high.

Schedule time to try out products.

 _Actually_ try out the product.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much! All very helpful</comment></comment>