What is Happening in Istanbul? - <AUTHOR> http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/ <comment><USER2> CNN STORY (with images): [http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/turkey- protests/i...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/turkey- protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

It's now a full blown anti-government riot. The park issue was just the last straw that set it off.

The original poster was telling the truth now stop arguing about shopping malls.

<comment><USER3> When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?*

*Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.

<comment><USER4> Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States...

Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the world.

<comment><USER5> Here are the rules by US state: <http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html>

<comment><USER6> Do riot police arbitrarily make these rules up on the fly?

13+ years since WTO Battle in Seattle? Melissa Kaplan still cannot find Washington State wearing gas mask code/regulations?

What is it about Evergreen(Evergray?) Washington State?

Last updated January 13, 2013

State Codes Related To Wearing Masks

Compiled by Melissa Kaplan Need to wear an air filtration mask when you go out to avoid the effects of fragrances, chemicals, pollens and more?

You may be breaking the law.

Each state has its own code relating to masks (though some states may have no such code) and/or disguises. In some, you may be okay wearing a filtration or surgical mask; in others, you may be required to carry a note from your physician stating that you need to wear the mask for health reasons.

If you find the code section for your state and send me a copy of the section and language, I will add it to this listing.

.......................

The only thing I could find:

Seattle municipal court judge dismisses WTO gas mask case on February 17, 2000.

On February 17, 2000, a municipal court judge dismisses criminal charges against a man accused of violating the emergency order prohibiting the possession of "devices commonly known as gas masks" during the period of unrest surrounding the World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting which occurred in late November and early December, 1999, in Seattle.

Mayor Paul Schell had issued an emergency order prohibiting the possession of gas masks in Seattle except by military and police on December 1, 1999. Later that day, journalists were allowed to possess gas masks, but the ban did not extend to firefighters.

Justin Reed of Seattle was arrested at City Hall on the day the ban was signed when he attempted to attend a City Council hearing called to discuss and ratify the mayor's order. The judge ruled that prosecutors did not prove that Reed knew of the ban when he was arrested. The charges were dismissed "with prejudice" meaning that Reed could not be charged again with the same crime.

As of February 17, 2000, only 24 persons out of more than 600 arrested during WTO protests were still charged with crimes, including four accused of violating the gas mask ban.

[http://www.historylink.org/_content/education/index.cfm?Disp...](http://www.historylink.org/_content/education/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=2145)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Via wiki's list of turkish newspapers (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Turkey>):

<http://www.zaman.com.tr/> Democratic, Islamic, Liberal ENGLISH: <http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

<http://www.posta.com.tr/> Populism

<http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/anasayfa/> Nationalism, Kemalist, Centre-Right ENGLISH: <http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

<http://www.sabah.com.tr/> Liberal Conservatism, Center-Right

<http://www.sozcu.com.tr/> Nationalism, Kemalism, Secular

<http://www.milliyet.com.tr/AnaSayfa/> Kemalist, Nationalist, Secular, Center- Left

<http://www.haberturk.com/> Nationalism, Conservatism, Right-Wing

<http://www.turkiyegazetesi.com/> Conservatism, Right-Wing

<http://www.stargazete.com/> Liberal Conservatism, Center-Right

<http://www.gazetevatan.com/root.asp> Kemalist, Nationalist, Secular

<http://www.bugun.com.tr/> Conservative-Democrat, Nationalism, Center-Right

<http://www.takvim.com.tr/> Center-Right

<http://www.aksam.com.tr/> Center-Left

<http://yenisafak.com.tr> Islamism, Conservatism, Right-Wing

edit: added some English links above. Also <http://www.goodmorningturkey.com/>

<comment><USER8> What is the significance of being Kemalist?

<comment><USER7> {I just shuffled wiki's labels around and claim no special knowledge of Turkey. I'd guess Kemalists, despite their nationalism, would generally identify more with secular and democratic protestors than with the Islamist government}

<comment><USER8> That's roughly where I am, but that's why I asked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Loath as I am to cite Buzzfeed, but: the images of the people on the bridge are not from these protests. They are from the 2012 Istanbul Marathon. [http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most- popula...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-popular- photos-from-the-protests-in-turkey-i)

<comment><USER10> I did not find a replica of the bridge posted.

Perhaps it is a popular crossing that gets filled up whenever major events are happening?

<comment><USER11> No, it is a major highway. Pedestrian traffic is are not allowed. Getting on the bridge as a group of people is very rare and requires significant critical mass to pull off.

<comment><USER12> Like a major protest?

<comment><USER11> The go-to location for major protests is the Taksim Square, which is four miles from the bridge by foot. The protests need to be really widespread and populous to spread to the bridge. I don't remember that happening in my recent memory (except for a local soccer thing).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I just went to Youtube, and on the first page there was this video of a protester overrun by a police tank: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbYQ_dzFniY>

EDIT: it looks to me that at the beginning of the video you can spot the feet of another person behind him.

<comment><USER14> I don't think they saw him though. And the shield hopefully saved him.

<comment><USER13> I looked at the video again. If you look it in slow motion, you can see that there is another man crouching in the back. Although the man in the front might not be visible to the tank driver, the one behind should be and has no shield. Also, just before the impact the tank fires the water cannon in the exact direction of the two. Might be a coincidence or a proof they saw them.

But even in the event they did not see them, you just don't drive a tank against a barrier where you don't know if there are people or not.

<comment><USER15> > If you look it in slow motion,

There is slow motion on youtube?

<comment><USER16> Enable HTML5 trial <http://www.youtube.com/html5> and then on some videos (non-VEVO etc.) you can control the speed.

<comment><USER15> Interesting. I see the speed setting on some videos now. But clicking on them has no effect. For example when I click on 0.25x the video keeps playing at normal speed. Im using Iceweasel on Debian 7.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The police are basically treating this like war. Remember this the next time someone says we should treat the police with respect because they're 'just doing their job'. It's not a stick with a worker at both ends, it a stick with a worker at one end and the state at the other.

<comment><USER18> It's becoming a civil war.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Looking at it from a class perspective:

"Erdogan's vision of Turkey is one full of citizens who piously pray in the country's ubiquitous mosques and then go shopping at one of its equally ubiquitous malls, which are frantically being built in urban areas.

As long as the imports, credit card, and debt-driven Turkish economic bubble remains intact, the government will continue to pursue these and other neoliberal policies to the great praise of western think-thanks, private equity firms, and politicians who all repeat the fallacy of the 'Turkish [success] model'.

Notwithstanding these neoliberal economic policies, Erdogan is still extremely popular among Turkey's poor and working people in both urban and rural areas. Most western observers have missed this crucial fact and are, therefore, quick to enthusiastically compare the Gezi Park protests with the 'Arab Spring'.

One has only to speak with blue-collar workers in Turkey to understand popular attitudes toward the government. Whenever I am in Istanbul, I engage in political small talk with people from various walks of life, including waiters, construction workers, and young men working on the ferries crossing the Bosporus. I also frequently visit my family members, who are from a poor Anatolian background.

In my conversations with these people, I have heard nothing but firm support for Erdogan. When asked about Turkey's unemployment rate or the Prime Minister's nepotism, most of these individuals do not hesitate to say, "I know that Erdogan is also 'siphoning the cash' (hortumluyorlar). But good for him (helal olsun). At least he is leaving us some crumbs. The previous bastards never gave us everything." Memories of many decades of economic and political oppression by secular elites are still fresh for many Turks. Because of the AKP, these people now have access to things like privatized health care, credit card use, and unprecedented infrastructure development."

[http://muftah.org/why-the-gezi-park-protests-do-not- herald-a...](http://muftah.org/why-the-gezi-park-protests-do-not-herald-a- turkish-spring-yet/)

</comment><comment><USER20> I recommend - <http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/>

What puzzle me the most, is the voluntary cooperation of the media with the government. Even if the media does not support this event, how they not cover it at all? sad, I always thought of Turkey as the most successful example of a Muslim democratic state.

<comment><USER21> > Muslim democratic state.

There are very, very few religious democracies, and if you only consider those both officially and effectively religious, I won't be able to name a single one.

<comment><USER22> > I won't be able to name a single one.

UK?

<comment><USER23> officially religious but not effectively.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Another explanation, with more detail "on the ground":

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_conf...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_confused_can_someone_provide_a_clear_cut/caaggt6)

<comment><USER25> and others on quora, [http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi- Park...](http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi- Park%C4%B1-in-Taksim-Istanbul)

<comment><USER26> [http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi- Park...](http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-Parkı-in- Taksim-Istanbul?share=1)

Append "?share=1", and the dumbass registration wall goes away.

<comment><USER27> System hacking detected! Querystrings are our last defense!

<comment><USER26> It's such a weird thing to implement on top of a registration wall.

I imagine it's something friends, VCs, and the tech press were told about, but the rest of us aren't supposed to use.

<comment><USER28> No, everybody was told about it. It's an official feature. Because Quora power users keep bitching up a storm about the registration wall.

It is still a weird thing, though. The Quora management swears that forcing people to log up makes things better somehow, although they've never been particularly clear on how that works.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> @Brown_Moses (<https://twitter.com/brown_moses>) is one of the best people to follow on these subjects.

Eliot is an interesting example of one a single well-connected individual can accomplish in the digital age: [http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-brown- moses-blog/x/255...](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-brown-moses- blog/x/2550379).

His feed is a bit of a firehose feed, so I recommend you only follow him, whenever you need to immerse yourself in an ongoing story.

The things going on in Turkey are so insane, they have to be seen to be believed.

EDIT: His YouTube playlist with videos of the clashes: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUktDH- OBM&list=PLPC0Ude...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUktDH- OBM&list=PLPC0Udeof3T6EQfTPPnuyek1gNRCTiulH&index=1).

</comment><comment><USER30> "These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no «hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government, for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to attack Syria against its people's will.

On top of all that, the government control over its people's personal lives has become unbearable as of late. The state, under its conservative agenda passed many laws and regulations concerning abortion, cesarean birth, sale and use of alcohol and even the color of lipstick worn by the airline stewardesses."

It sounds as if the protestors, if the author is genuine, are protesting something I call "Singaporification." It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi- fascist rule with capitalism-- a kind of socially conservative, often (but not always) religious conservative, but economically neo-liberal state of affairs. On the surface it sometimes looks theocratic, but in reality it's more of a dictatorship of gentrification. Religious morality (or sometimes secularized versions thereof) is used as a facade to condemn any form of social deviancy and especially to mentally control the lower classes by manipulating their religious faiths.

(We see the latter in America with the "culture war," which is a way of distracting the largely-religious working classes while their future is sold out from under them.)

In conversations with fellow techies, it's disturbed me to what extent many seem to tacitly support this kind of thing. I've been in many conversations explicitly praising Singapore -- a country that permits death sentences for minor infractions -- as a viable model of the future.

The thing that makes Singaporification scary is that it works. The scariest dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on. Who would want to emulate North Korea? But seductive dystopias are dangerous because they _can_ catch on. Who wouldn't want low crime, clean streets, and a wonderfully healthy economy? In that sense I find Singapore to be the scariest dystopia in the world today.

Historical precursors include Franco's Spain. Think of Singaporification as a gentler, less overtly violent form of Spanish fascism. But as we see if you openly challenge it, the gloves rapidly come off and your shiny clean utopia busts out the tanks, tear gas, and death penalty sentences.

Edit: on second thought, it also represents a fusion of liberal nanny-statism, conservative social authoritarianism, and neo-liberal economics. Government by and for the uptight, culturally xenophobic urban professional.

As Benjamin Franklin said: those who sacrifice liberty for security and prosperity deserve neither.

Worth watching: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066434/>

"Buy, and be happy."

If action flicks are more your thing, this is a fun and a bit underrated riff on the same theme: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/>

<comment><USER31> Wow.

I am speechless.

As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long periods of time, let me say very clearly: _you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about._

Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any shape or form. There may be a _few_ surface-level parallels, but that's where the similarities end.

I am stunned however that a person who very likely has never even visited either place (much less lived in them) has the gall to call what Turkey is going through "Singaporification." I mean, it's not like I haven't noticed the anti-Singaporean sentiments on HN lately - they don't surprise me, since a lot of HN folks are white middle/upper-middle class and lean libertarian[1], which is the exact opposite of Singapore. But using the events in Istanbul as an opportunity to bash Singapore is just... petty and shameless.

I would love to give you a detailed breakdown of the differences between Singapore and Turkey, but that would be an essay. I'll highlight a few important ones.

Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government. That's part of the reason why the protests started: the contractor that was going to build the mall on top of Gezi Park has ties to the Prime Minister, who was going to profit from it. That's just ONE example.

Singapore is extremely diverse culturally. There are several religions and languages. As a result, there are often no culturally accepted behaviors. In a sense, Singapore does not really fit the traditional definition of a nation, and instead has been called a society in transition. In contrast, Turkey has a very strong cultural identity rooted deeply in the country's history and predominant religion, Islam.

The two country's governments are also extremely different. Singapore is a de- facto one-party state; the dominant party, the PAP, has won every single general election since the first one. In contrast, Turkey is a multi-party system, which creates very complex dynamics in the political landscape.

I can go on, but you get the idea. Hopefully.

[1]Table 10 in <http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa580.pdf>

<comment><USER32> You know, actually the US isn't that much freer in practice compared to Singapore. In theory, perhaps. And the reason has less to do with the decline of rugged individualism amongst soccer moms than the existence of a constant low-level background threat, whether from terrorism, a sizable underclass, law enforcement, or (this might be embarassing for some) alcoholism. They don't check IDs for alcohol in Singapore. If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe. However, if you say that it is the US which makes sacrifices to provide those freedoms, I will actually agree with you. For the record, I was born and raised in Singapore and have lived in the US for the last decade.

EDIT: all these debates have the political reek of programming language wars... US <-> Lisp; Singapore <-> C++.

<comment><USER33> _If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe._

You have to go where?

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1009...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine- Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html)

I think if you want to see practical examples of freedom, you can conquer your own island and start inventing them. No modern nation is going to tolerate very much of it.

<comment><USER34> For all its faults the USA has very strong 1st Amendment protections.

I also find it strange that most western European countries outlaw the Nazi party and denying the holocaust. I suspect this only serves to give them more legitimacy in the eyes of society's downtrodden. The American model of dealing with these groups just seems more sustainable. Give them enough room to say all kinds of stupid things.

Le Pen is an ignorant racist. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give her every opportunity to say all the stupid shit she wants to say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I have sympathy for the protesters but I do wish they had protested just as vehemently when the government began to silence the Press. A Free Press does not guarantee democracy but it does bark loudly and fiercely when it senses danger to the democracy.

<comment><USER36> I wish they had protested when the government started imprisoning generals, although admittedly it is harder to get worked up about the army than it is about the press.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Similar thing happened in Yerevan, Armenia last year, but in a smaller scale. Group of people protected a park from construction of boutiques. It took around 2 months and the government finally gave up. There is a wikipedia article covering the story: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashtots_Park_Movement>

</comment><comment><USER38> What is currently going on in Turkey is the Islamist ruling party pushing hard to make the country much more conservative instead of secular, all the while pushing their way back into the Arab world to regain their clout and power.

The youths are protesting because what was once a fairly liberal set of standards is rapidly being removed.

Ironically, it was the military that protected this set of freedoms.

<comment><USER39> There's nothing ironic about that. The military in Turkey have styled themselves the defenders of Ataturk's constitution, which enshrined certain "Kemalist" values like secularism, republicanism, and populism. They've engaged in military coups several times in the history of Turkey in order to (ostensibly) protect the constitution. In the past they've removed any leader that was deemed too politically religious.

Erdogan's big accomplishment was to be moderate enough in his political Islamism that he didn't trigger a military coup. Further, the European Union disapproved of Turkey's history of military coups, making it clear that they weren't going to admit a country that relied on military coups to defend its constitution from democracy. So the military did not remove Erdogan, despite the AKP's moderate Islamic agenda.

The military is a conservative force in Turkish society insofar as it defends an interpretation of the constitution and politics rooted in Ataturk's ideology from the 1920s. But it is not a conservative force in the socially conservative political Islam sense. You should not be surprised that secular urban youth and the Turkish military end up on the same side.

<comment><USER40> Good stuff. Though, it is better to say military used to be like that, as currently, all the generals including the leading general 3 years ago have been jailed, so indeed military is very powerless now. It is not only that AKP did not trigger the coup, it is that they learned from the mistakes of their political ancestors, and this time, crushed the military before moving on to their real Islamist plans.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Live cam from Taksim, Istanbul <http://rt.com/on-air/turkey-protest-istanbul- park/>

<comment><USER42> Error 404 now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is disgusting, the "right" to profit/property is the _least_ important thing, it should _never_ trump people's well-being or the environment.

<comment><USER21> Yet a democratically-elected government made a decision in the name of the people to replace this park with a shopping mall. People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal interests.

This is a general problem I have with such active counter-protests, be they to stop a station from being built (Stuttgart 21, [0]) or to block a legitimate demonstration of right-wing idiots. The rights to free speech, to assemble and to demonstrate are important, but in my opinion the right to demonstrate/protest _in a specific location_ does not trump the right of the majority to implement a democratically made decision or the right of a minority to voice their opinion.

That said, there are obviously cases were a small minority has the right to (even violently) protest a decision made by the majority[1], but building a shopping mall in a park is not one of them.

[0] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21>

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution> , e.g. Art. 20.4 of the German Basic Law – does the Turkish constitution have a similar provision?

<comment><USER44> > People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e. > stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in > order to protect their personal interests.

I think this is getting at the heart of _civil disobedience_ : the violation of laws or decrees considered unjust.

I know nothing about the Turkish protests, but another example of civil disobedience is Martin Luther King, Jr. He committed crimes, technically, as he protested. But I don't think that it makes sense to say that MLK's protesting == overturning democracy in America. By analogy, it's hard to imagine civil disobedience in Turkey to be overthrowing democracy there.

<comment><USER21> First let me clarify that instead of 'overturn', 'ignore', 'overrule' or 'disregard' might have been better, as I wanted to say that such protests overrule one particular democratic decision and not necessarily the whole form of government.

Then, as I said, the matter is difficult – essentially you have to weigh the predictable functioning of the democratic process against the damage that can be done to people if this process 'goes wrong'. Unfortunately, this has a whole bunch of problems:

\- we do not have a universal definition of when a democratic decision is so wrong it is acceptable for someone to stand up against it

\- that someone has to judge objectively whether his rights were violated in such a way that he is justified to stand up against the democratic will

\- in many cases, we do not know what the majority 'really' wants

\- even if a given system/constitution has securities that allow people to stand up against democratically made decisions, these might be seen as either too lax or too restrictive.

For example, the German constitution would allow the people to overthrow a democratic government that wants to cut back on social security in such a way as to violate article 20 of the Basic Law[0] – in the US, on the other hand, people apparently sometimes feel obliged to oppose a government that wants to introduce such social security. If even two relatively similar western societies cannot agree on when it is acceptable to overrule a democratic decision, how can we expect to find universal rules for that on a global scale?

In essence, it is a philosophical discussion on how much you respect democratic decisions as compared to the rights of individuals, and whether or not you only accept positive law or also include some 'natural' law in your decision-making.

I tend to like both democracy and positive law, but YMMV, of course. :)

[0] It defines Germany as a 'social federal state', does not allow to change that definition, and allows everyone to take up arms against those trying to change it, provided that all other means have been exhausted.

<comment><USER44> I don't really see cause for surprise that the US and Germany are politically different. Without commenting on the merits of either, you described Germany as a social federal state, while the US is not that (and is known for staunch proponents of individuality). In that framework I don't find it surprising that people protest on opposite sides of an issue in the two countries. (This is meant to be something of a logical statement, not a political one.)

I don't think that the nature of civil disobedience is disregarding laws. To the contrary, I think it can be found in regarding laws very carefully and choosing when and how to break such laws for maximum impact; then, by freely suffering the consequences for even greater impact. (This is a general point; I do not mean to imply that the Turkish protests are civil disobedience; I don't know enough yet to judge.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> One of the more hackernews relevant aspects of this event is the role of the media. Turkey has a very robust media, with dozens of TV stations and newspapers, yet there are no laws preventing the media from participating other commercial activities, or owning both newspapers and TV stations, etc. In fact, most of the media is owned by large corporations. Add to this the large role the government plays in the economy, it's almost inevitable that media is corrupt and avoids going against the government.

Even with that background, the reporting by the mainstream media about the events of the last couple of days has been a disgrace, and social media is filling the void.

The following is the most insightful analysis I've seen on this topic "Is there a Social-Media Fueled Protest Style? An Analysis From #jan25 to #geziparki "<http://technosociology.org/?p=1255>

<comment><USER36> Turkey does not (currently) have a robust media. It has a very high rate of incarceration of journalists.

<comment><USER45> Not really what I refer to by robust media. I'd say 200+ private TV stations, hundreds of radio stations, 40+ national daily papers qualify to call it "robust". IMO high number of incarcerated journalists is more reflection on the government that ,though democratically elected, does not seem to understand you can't really have democracy without respecting individual rights and freedoms.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46>
      "There is now a menace which is called Twitter," Erdogan
      said. "The best examples of lies can be found there. To me,
      social media is the worst menace to society."

I've been surprised by the amount of control the government has over the media. I always thought of Turkey as being more liberal.

<comment><USER27> People (and countries) can change, especially when people who are interested in changing a country gravitate to power. The only guarantee of our freedoms in a modern civil society is our continued vigilance and active participation in it.

<comment><USER47> When he was doing his first campaign, Erdogan portrayed himself a liberal. Even after he became president he distanced himself from his old fundamentalist islam friends and followed relatively liberal politics.

Oh, also he had portrayed himself as a victim. This is the achilles heel of Turkish people. They love you unconditionally if they think you are victim. (I am Turkish)

AFAIK, general population is no more or no less liberal compared to 10 years ago. Honestly they weren't/aren't quite liberal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Hürriyet, a left-leaning English-language daily, is covering the protests (and Erdoğan's response, the resulting politicking, and so on): <http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

I should note that Hürriyet is historically quite unfriendly to Erdoğan; in particular (IIRC) it raised quite a bit of noise when Doğan Holdings, which owns Hürriyet, underwent tax fraud investigations that may have been politically motivated.

</comment><comment><USER49> Can someone perhaps comment on the alleged use of agent orange? [1] From my limited knowledge of chemical weapons ( in lack of a better word), it is an deforestation chemical, and has no direct use for riot control. So currently my take is, that this is a rumor, since its use would better fit into the narrative than into a plausible police strategy.

[1] for example: [http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_conf...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_confused_can_someone_provide_a_clear_cut/caaggt6)

(from saurik's comment)

<comment><USER50> I'd find Agent Orange hard to believe, given that it did a bit more than deforestation in Vietnam. The Redditor describes it as "a derivative of the Vietnam era deforestation chemical Agent Orange. It is incredibly toxic and forbidden by the UN after the horrific effects it had on both the Vietnamese and Americans exposed to it.", but derived from could mean anything really.

I'd find it hard to believe that anything closely resembling it is used by any sane police force, that seems like it would be classified as chemical warfare?

<comment><USER51> my memory is a bit hazy but wasn't the most dangerous part of agent orange the fact that it was contaminated with very toxic dioxins rather than the toxic properties of 'clean' agent orange?

Why would Turkey resort to chemical warfare when they don't have to, why risk the wrath of the international community when you can 'just' use tear gas and such?

<comment><USER52> Yes, you are correct. The active ingredient in Agent Orange is routinely in use for weed control.

> > It is incredibly toxic and forbidden by the UN after the horrific effects > it had on both the Vietnamese and Americans exposed to it.

It's not forbidden by the UN, the active ingredient is 2,4-D and is the 3rd most used herbicide in america.

The other ingredient 2,4,5-T is non toxic, but making it commonly contaminates it with the very toxic 2,3,7,8.

<comment><USER50> Thanks for the explanation, I wasn't aware of that. When they say it's a derivative, they probably mean closer to that herbicide then?

I still haven't heard anything about it actually being used there, but would that seem at all reasonable to you? A police force that uses tear gas and don't want to kill people, would they plausibly use such a derivative for the same purpose?

<comment><USER53> "When they say it's a derivative, they probably mean closer to that herbicide then?"

When they say it's a derivative, they most probably mean that they saw something orange, and that is why they call it Agent Orange. Unfortunately, the average person seeing teargas is fairly ignorant about chemistry and biology. It makes no sense to spread a herbicide in a demonstration. It is harmful in the long term but has no impact on people in the short term, thus is just no use in that situation.

Agent Orange was called AO because the containers it came in had an orange strip. The substance itself is colourless, just like the same herbicides today. And is not particularly toxic to humans, the problem in Vietnam was trace amounts of dioxin in manufacturing the 2,4,5-T component.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Tear gas and Water cannons are the best non-lethal methods for crowd control available... honestly I think the turkish police are doing a good a job at controlling this as possible.

All the media and reddit pictures are from the side of the protesters, a few pictures of people who get knocked in the head with a tear gas container != cops beating and shooting innocent people as they would have you believe.

Also from empirical evidence as an American who spent two weeks in Istanbul last year I've found the city and police to be totally welcoming and open ... to include bar crawls around taksim, walking 20 miles on foot through every nieghborhood in the city, to visiting some of the holiest artifacts in Islam at topkapi palace.

I'd like to see the other side of this... I understand the government has been culling the ranks of the top military to weaken their influence and push the Islamist agenda.. I do, but that said, turkey is not syria or iraq, it is a large cosmopolitan and wonderful country I would hate to see it destroyed.

Edit: I'll add for reference if it matters I'm a large, shaved headed and tattooed, obviously american man, who was a solo traveler.

<comment><USER55> Tear gas canisters are "non-lethal", perhaps, but that's not the bar I think should be set. An example of the kind of thing that can happen:

[http://gothamist.com/2010/06/01/cooper_union_student_loses_e...](http://gothamist.com/2010/06/01/cooper_union_student_loses_eye_in_w.php)

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> The folk need your support right now, may be tomorrow will be late. 30 minutes ago the president Erdogan gave a spech in television. He calling twitter "a piece of shit", because the folk organizing, talking about him and reality in twitter (for sure there is fake news also but if he did not bought the turkish media than we won't need twitter, twitter is only option for now), even his voters commenting on twitter, the politics people are unbelievable.

How to help: Even sending a picture, with your city name and a support message (even only a support message) may be will change his mind. Please send your tweet with support message and #direngeziparki #direnturkiye or #direnankara hash tags. (which means in order "resist gezi park", "resist turkey", "resist ankara". gezi park is the start point of the protest, Ankara is (the captial) city where cops hitting people right now)

Even writing in your language will help us to reach more people. You could write whatever you think about "fascism". For sure he got 50% vote, but it does not mean he will not listen the other 50%.

</comment><comment><USER57> Darth Vader entering the war zone: [https://twitter.com/yigitkilinc7/status/341139175782891520/p...](https://twitter.com/yigitkilinc7/status/341139175782891520/photo/1)

</comment><comment><USER58> The New York Times reporting on Istanbul [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/despite- prote...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/despite-protests- turkey-vows-to-push-ahead-with-plans-for- square.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&ref=global-home&pagewanted=all)

</comment><comment><USER59> I've been following the events since the beginning (in fact I was there at the solitary meeting in Chicago yesterday: [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi- local-...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-local- demonstration-supports-turkey-protests-20130601,0,5732219.story)), so let me summarize what's been going on. However, if you have time to read just a single post, read this (<http://technosociology.org/?p=1255>) spot on analysis instead of my comment.

First, it's not an Istanbul thing anymore, many Turkish cities, especially Izmir and Ankara witnessed large protests and clashes with the police in the past couple of days.

On paper, this started with a small group of protesters sitting in the park to stop its demolition and cutting down the trees on Monday. That evening and at 5am on Tuesday morning they were violently attacked by the police. The attacks continued on Wednesday. The appalling police brutality unfortunately is nothing new in Turkey but this time it triggered an unexpected reaction from a wide swath of people.

People's discontent with AKP has been rising for some time, although they have provided a stable economy for the past 10 years. Some of the recent events have really notched it up, though, e.g.:

* The fact that government made no official plans to celebrate the May 19th holiday, which is an important day in the creation of the Turkish Republic (mirroring their approach to the October 29th holiday, which is like July 4th for Turkey)

* Lack of adequate response from PM Erdogan to the bombing in Reyhanli. Rather than cancel his visit to the US to visit the town, he went with his original plan. A lot of people thought that he brought such terrorist activities on Turkey due to his agressive rhetoric on Essad and his strong support of the dissidents there.

* The recent ban on the sale of alcohol between 10pm and 6am ([http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/turkey-alcohol-l...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/turkey-alcohol-laws-istanbul-nightlife)). This was an unheard-of move that angered a lot of people, not because Turkey consumes a lot of alcohol but it was interpreted as a step to the Islamic Law.

What really surprised me (and I witnessed many a protest and a few military coups there) was the exponential growth of the protest and its apolitical nature. Before, people used to write the usual leftist slogans on the walls, this time there were a lot of funny graffiti about Erdogan, the police and the pepper gas (examples at [https://eksisozluk.com/gezi-parki-isgali-duvar- yazilari--385...](https://eksisozluk.com/gezi-parki-isgali-duvar-yazilari-- 3858340), for Turkish readers).

Due to the wide use of social media there were some disinfomation as expected, spread around by excited people, e.g. that the police was using Agent Orange. This was due to the China-like complacency of the Turkish media. In fact, when CNN International was transmitting live from the riots in Istanbul CNN Turk was running a documentary about penguins! The reason for this is two-fold: the intimidation of reporters in the past 2-3 years (e.g. see the OdaTV case, where the owner of a TV station and reporters were swiftly jailed with scant evidence when they criticized the government: [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/europe/soner- yalcin-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/europe/soner-yalcin-owner- and-editor-of-odatv-freed-from-prison.html?_r=0)). The other reason is the financial blackmail that the government exercises over large media conglomerates, e.g. when the Dogan group got a colossal $2.3B tax fine in 2009.

<comment><USER60> I read, listened hundreds of things about events, but honestly, all I see is vague hand wavy things about the real cause. "Lack of adequate response.. No official plans to celebrate May 19.. No alcohol sale after 10pm.." Seriously? I maen really?, To me this this whole mess seems to be reduced to "Hey police pepper sprayed my friend yesterday, and btw I also hate this government and PM. I am going in." reaction.

<comment><USER61> Let me give you a quick chronology of what happened. It was a peaceful sit in in May 27th to 30th. On the 30th at 5am, police walked in and tear gassed protestors and burned their tents. Strike #1.

People gathered back at 1pm, and did yet another peaceful sit in. Protestors red eachother and the police books, sang songs. Police attacked them yet again with tear gas and pressurized water. Strike #2.

They kept doing do over and over again for the next few days even though the protestors STILL were not causing damage. Strike #3.

They, "unknown" civilian groups were photographed, carrying sticks and beating people while the police is holding them. Police beating people. Police aiming with tear gas guns at people and hitting them with it at close range (can cause severe trauma by the sheer speed of the canister), and then dancing afterwards in joy. Strike #4.

Also, you seem to be a Turkish speaker, so you know the significance of all those things that you're saying "Seriously?" to. Trivializing it won't help.

<comment><USER60> I am not trivializing, I am away from the country for long time, I am really trying to understand. So from what you wrote I think that you agree with me, they are mainly rioting because police is using excessive force to rioters?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> One of the most challenging aspects of learning about important, under- reported events is correcting for the biases of individuals who are reporting on it

For example, while there are no doubt many shopping malls in Istanbul, I doubt there is "at least one in every neighborhood!" (unless that word is better translated as something more like a suburb)

This makes it harder to trust all of the details of the more serious accounts of police aggression, or the simplifed context of things like "The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government". As another commenter has pointed out, even photos can end up being from unrelated events.

This is not to say that this person's perspective is not extremely important, or that the Turkish state is not committing indefensible acts of aggression. It's just harder for outsiders to piece together a full and accurate picture of what is happening. Fortunately, multiple individual perspectives can help corroborate and enhance the picture to quite a degree.

Edit: Certainly media has biases too, although there are at least in theory standards for verifying reported facts, and the bias is (often) more about what they choose not report or what context is not given.

Edit: good points by buro as well. This account and others may well be very reliable, I'm more speaking from experience with past events that were reported in similar ways where key important facts turned out to be wrong or missing. (I know, that happens sometimes in traditional media too)

<comment><USER63> Sure but some things are quite easily researchable online. You doubt that there is a mall in every neighbourhood, but a quick look on Google Maps: [http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&...](http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&ll=41.041556,29.036007&spn=0.13012,0.098705&sll=41.041556,29.00322&sspn=0.13012,0.164108&hq=shopping+mall&t=m&z=13)

And yup, there are a phenomenal number of shopping malls, some only a couple of hundred meters from another.

I did spot check quite a few, looked at a few of the websites, and they are all multi-level, large shopping malls.

In fact this one is a mere 300m from Gezi Park: <http://www.demirorenistiklal.com/>

The great thing about the internet is that it is possible to get a sense of whether a claim is true or not very swiftly.

On the one fact you doubt and then use as an example to undermine the rest of the argument, a quick search verifies that claim. (Should you revisit the doubt you extended to the rest of the argument in light of some evidence to the claims that you used to undermine it?)

Of course there is emotion in there too (the government selling the nation to corporations), but we're mostly rational and will spot that surely.

The fundamental question is whether or not the reports in general speak of a true event, and overwhelmingly they do appear so. The level of consistency in the very many reports and sources is too much to be attributable and dismissed as any individual being emotional... of course they are emotional; some of their friends, family and fellow citizens are dead, others are in hospital or jail.

<comment><USER64> Just because you can type them into google doesn't mean they're 'easily researchable'. How many shopping malls in NYC?

[https://maps.google.com/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&l...](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&ll=40.730348,-73.993092&spn=0.074277,0.119648&sll=40.714476,-74.005966&sspn=0.074295,0.119648&gl=us&hq=shopping+mall&t=m&z=13)

These results seem pretty lousy and not particularly different from those from Istanbul.

<comment><USER65> Well, I've been to both cities for two weeks and I didn't find any mall in NYC (I'm sure there must be some, I just didn't find them) while in Istanbul they are really everywhere, you cannot ignore them if not only because they are usually guarded by security people with riffles. Here's a list: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Istan...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Istanbul)

They are usually huge. I was very surprise because in my home country, Portugal, we used to believe we had a lot of malls (we do) but Istanbul is just unbelievable.

Back to Istanbul, in Levent (near the financial district) you can have three right next to each other. On one of my stays there my hotel was actually around the corner from one of this malls.

<comment><USER64> I don't have any trouble believing there are many malls in Istanbul. I do have some trouble believing you can reasonably answer whether they are too many by just checking on the internet. In fact, as you point out, it's possible to visit NYC and not notice how many there are.

I also have some difficulty with the idea that people are heading out to the streets, risking life and limb, in multiple cities across Turkey just because of a mall in Istanbul.

The notion that we can figure this out just by hitting google maps seems obviously wrong.

<comment><USER66> Well, this exact crisis has been on Reddit for a couple of days and I even saw it on BBC News's online front page last night. I can't tell you exactly why people are doing it but it certainly sounds like a demonstration against a shopping mall was the spark.

<comment><USER64> Oh that part seems plausible. The bit that seems like over-reaching is that we can easily and quickly gain some insight into the situation by hitting google maps. Mohamed Bouazizi's suicide sparked popular protests in Tunisia and subsequently, across the middle east. Is there a lot we can learn about the Arab Spring by googling 'street vendors, Ben Arous'? Probably not.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> The funniest thing is that US is _worried_ about protest. Ahem, someone should remind Administration about Occupy Wall Street and violent moves by Obama Administration.

<comment><USER53> I don't there's anything funny. You may think that the Turkish government is your enemy, but your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend.

Take the Arab Spring: is there more liberty, better law, better civil rights in the countries where the dictators were overthrown? I'm unclear on that, and certainly some places have moved from secular, predictable dictatorship to a very unpredictable, unstable situation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Let's shift the conversation _away from_ Singapore and towards what's happening in Turkey (not just Istanbul anymore, in fact, there have been many protests abroad in support).

The original protest was about the ruling party abusing their majority at the polls in such a way that they didn't feel bothered to listen to any opposing view or legitimate concern.

After the unjust and extremely heavy-handed police response, the original protest turned into something much larger, with new support from concerned regular citizens. In fact, since the police response has not become any better, some of the people that voted for the ruling party seem to have changed their positions in support of the protesters.

As a result, I think the Turkish PM lost whatever credibility he had abroad, along with his perceived role as a mediator for the Syrian conflict. I hope these demonstrations conclude in a peaceful way and cause Erdogan to rethink his (obviously limited) understanding of how democracy should work. If not, I'm afraid the country may not be able to hold off the fraction of the Turkish military that would want to step in and take over once again.

</comment><comment><USER69> Coincidentally, I've noticed the same thing happening in Szczecin, Poland as per the shopping mall phenomenon. I lived there from 2005-2008, and there were a few shopping malls, nothing crazy. Every 1-2 years I've gone back, there has been at least one or two new major shopping malls put up, and that's just in the few places I frequent around the city center.

Besides the philosophical question of whether it's a good thing for a city, I just don't understand the economics of it. How do all these places coexist? Where does the demand and up-front money come from? Is there actually real demand at all, or is it just completely manufactured/delusional (build it and they will come!)? When I lived there, people's shopping needs seemed fulfilled, and the population has flatlined since then [1]. I heard tell of some EU grants involved. Overall, it just doesn't seem sustainable from an economic perspective, even in the short-term.

[1] [http://www.citypopulation.de/php/poland- zachodniopomorskie.p...](http://www.citypopulation.de/php/poland- zachodniopomorskie.php?cityid=3262011)

<comment><USER70> What if it's just corruption? Maybe a political person having one built by a construction company he has financial ties to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> main cause: block the destruction of a historical park

Thousands of people of all ages gathered without any formal notice, just by friend to friend, neighbour to neighbour; didn't allow provocation; resisted days of assault; assured the security of the park; almost all of the other big cities supported by protesting; protesters cleaned up their own mass, junks collected;

I guess this is a simple description without political adds.

</comment><comment><USER72> There are a number of defended buildings & complexes near Taksim. Consulates galore; a military hospital on Inonu Caddessi that has a bunch of sandbagged positions on it, along w/ more conventional guardposts; etc. And there's a military museum on the edge of the park, right next to where dozens of cats happily live.

Any of those places reporting troubles? Or is it all in the streets and park itself?

<comment><USER12> Not really, there was a video of police showing up at a military guarded position that tried to order them around and force them to let them have access. They told the guards that they will be forced to shoot tear gas at them if they don't comply and the military told them we have things we can shoot at you too and then the police left. The military is not really taking any action and the protests are not upset with the military as the military has been the secular force in Turkey for a long time and has staged coups before to keep it so.

<comment><USER72> Sounds consistent with other reports I've seen -- the protests haven't morphed into a general riot. cf. the photos of protesters cleaning up Istiklal Street when they finish. (Istiklal is the premier historical consulate/shopping street of central Istanbul, ending in Taksim Square. A bit disappointing to tourist on, actually, but a big deal even so.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> Here are some links that may help you see what is happening in Istanbul... Turkey is turning into a viloent police state... Thats whats happening!

 __* Evidence collection site for police violence:<http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/>

 __* Police and pro-government militia attacking innocent people:<http://pic.twitter.com/QTunT6irOF>

[http://f.cl.ly/items/263f2A3T0b093I2D0r2G/alsancak%2002.06.2...](http://f.cl.ly/items/263f2A3T0b093I2D0r2G/alsancak%2002.06.2013.mp4)

[http://24.media.tumblr.com/339ecfc6a17e0d372896dcf1065672b6/...](http://24.media.tumblr.com/339ecfc6a17e0d372896dcf1065672b6/tumblr_mns0nrMBPQ1su2tnjo1_500.jpg)

 __* Streets and residential areas indiscriminately turned into gas chambers:<http://youtu.be/WaDT1KPEuB8>

<http://pic.twitter.com/0RogcpOIUV>

<comment><USER47> * Photos: <http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/>

* More photos: <http://geziyardim.com/>

* [Turkish] Live feeds: <http://www.geziparkicanli.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> A friend of mine who's currently honeymooning in Istanbul says the riots are mostly regarding the laws against the sale and use of alcohol........

Him and his wife were caught in the midst of a riot and teargassed. They saw tons of public urination and most of the protestors are 25 or younger and drunk + smashing beer glasses all over...

<comment><USER75> Here is video of very well-behaved protesters from a Turkish inland city, Eskişehir: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enHoMtf_2g8>

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> There is a lot of misguided information floating around. I think this is the most objective article I've read so far. [http://www.al- monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/istanbul-p...](http://www.al- monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/istanbul-protests-who-are-protesters- turkey.html)

</comment><comment><USER77> > The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to > attack Syria against its people's will.

Wait, I thought Syria/Assad is the bad guy. The Turkish people support Assad but the Turkish government doesn't? Now I'm confused.

<comment><USER52> The internal factions and politics in that part of the world a not easy to understand from little snippets you read on the internet.

And the "people" don't always support things that a western person would agree with. People always assume that if there is a popular revolt it would always be in the direction of democracy and secularism - it's not so at all.

Don't support a popular revolt just because it's by the populace. Support it if you think it's right. And if you don't understand the situation then reserve judgment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> Ok. So how's about this. Istanbul is, and always has been, the most secular city in Turkey. Not Erdogan's base of power at all. Erdogan proposes to tear down a park near a location the inhabitants of Istanbul consider to be central to their identity as secular westerners (Taksim square). Revolt ensues, police reaction is excessive. Awful, of course, but hardly an event that will change the course of Turkish history.

Isn't this what is going on? Terrible if you're a native of Istanbul, but hardly something to worry about if you're one of the 50 million Turks that doesn't live in Istanbul and doesn't share that city's liberal standards?

</comment><comment><USER79> So many questions...

How does a NIMBY protest turn into Tiananmen Square? Does someone in government actually say, "They don't want malls? THEN GIVE THEM TANKS!!!"

Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale of lipstick and alcohol?

<comment><USER80> > Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale > of lipstick and alcohol?

Governments are groups of people that are at least partially restrained by the wills and opinions of other, much larger groups of people. People are very complex. If you are expecting the government to have rules that it follows 100% of the time, you will be disappointed.

A rule such as restricting lipstick sales is something that is mostly inconsequential that the government can still point to and say "See, we don't just blindly do what megacorps tell us to!"

<comment><USER81> >A rule such as restricting lipstick sales is something that is mostly inconsequential that the government can still point to and say "See, we don't just blindly do what megacorps tell us to!"

What it really does is to keep the government in power by pandering to extremists. Rational and well-informed people don't respond well to the imposition of corporate oligarchy. If that's what you intend to do, you've lost the support of those people. Now you need the support of someone else. Religious extremists fit the bill nicely, because although hardly anyone will actually prefer corporate oligarchy, there are people who place more value on "conservative values" than they do on economics, so you ban some lipstick and you restrict abortions and those people support you no matter what else you do.

You see the same thing with the Republican party in the US.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> One from new yorker : [http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/occupy-...](http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/occupy- taksim-police-against-protesters-in-istanbul.html)

</comment><comment><USER83> I was curious to learn the current status, so I looked through Turkish news sites. According to Hurriyet Daily News, the project to demolish the park has been suspended:

"Court suspends planned Artillery Barracks project to replace Gezi Park. An administrative court has suspended the conversion project in the lung of Istanbul."

[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/court-suspends-planned- arti...](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/court-suspends-planned-artillery- barracks-project-to-replace-gezi-park.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48006&NewsCatID=341)

<comment><USER12> Too late, the protest is no longer about the park.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

<comment><USER22> It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors.

Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or property in the vicinity.

<comment><USER8> No, this is a coward's excuse.

The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot shops. You are always ultimately responsible for you own actions, and you're also responsible for being associated with bad actions if you stand by quietly when they are going on.

<comment><USER22> > No..

What are you disagreeing with? I didn't state a position on the matter, or at least didn't intend to.

> The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot > shops.

Yes of course; I never stated that it was.

That behavior however, is a predictable occurrence when there is enough anger in a mob and herd mentality kicks in.

<comment><USER8> > It didn't start that way. It started peacefully.

OK. But as it did not end peacefully, not really relevant.

> The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful > protestors.

How is this relevant except to excuse the behaviour? The protesters didn't respond to the escalation by consolidating their resolve and standing their ground, they started destroying random people's property.

> Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion > will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or > property in the vicinity.

You indicate that the government bear the responsibility for this "bad shit" happening. They might _trigger_ it, in the same way a big row _triggers_ that someone hits someone else.

Edit: I'm pretty sure that what's going on isn't that random peaceful protesters turned violent, but rather that this protest, like most other protests bound to clash with the police, is "anarchist" catnip. These troublemakers will turn up under the guise of being part of a legitimate, peaceful protest, and at the first sliver of police yielding power, they'll let go and start their regular regiment of vandalism and violence. I'm no sure what the best response is for the legitimate peaceful protesters in this case, though.

<comment><USER85> Or the government sneaked in their people to delegitimize the protesters. This is a well known way police or covert agencies work.

Usually if protesters are well versed in such tactics the ring of strongest forms the ring around rest of the mass to protect them from interlopers that would give police a provocation they needed to attack the protesters or to delegimitize them.

<comment><USER8> How very convenient. Hand-wave it away: Maybe the police did it.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

<comment><USER85> I know it second hand from an acquaintance that studied Philosophy in Belgrade, Serbia. According to him it was spoken by Dragoljub Micunovic during the student protest in Belgrade during the 90-ties. This is something Milosevic was fond of doing to discredit the student protest.

I know this acquaintance had no reason to lie to me, it came up in regular conversation. I don't have any archive material to corroborate but I could try to find something.

<comment><USER8> Oh, I'm sure it's happened in many places. But that doesn't make it an any less extraordinary claim that that explains what happened in Gezi, given the spontaneous nature of the protests. Also, by all accounts, police moved in on peaceful (if illegally congregated) protesters. The point of instigating is that you can paint the protest as violent _before_ you move in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> I also jotted down a couple words on the background to these protests if anyone is interested.

<http://duruk.net/turkish-protests-of-2013/>

</comment><comment><USER87> The situation is really unfortunate because its such a beautiful country and the young generation is pretty incredible. People are usually blown away by how beautiful Istanbul is, along with many other parts of the country.

What's worst is that Erdogan is a strong-arm leader who most likely won't be going away anytime soon. The best hope for these protesters is that the opposition party gets their act together, which I see no evidence of; they've had the same idiot running against Erdogan for as long as I can remember.

</comment><comment><USER88> "Twitter is the biggest headache of societies" ~Recep Tayyip Erdogan

</comment><comment><USER89> Some images: [http://onedio.com/haber/gezi-parki-eyleminden-dehset- veren-f...](http://onedio.com/haber/gezi-parki-eyleminden-dehset-veren- fotograflar-116604)

</comment><comment><USER90> I am impressed by the arrogance of some of the commenters here, who seem to believe that they understand the totality and diversity of human nature and cultures.

</comment><comment><USER91> Stop lie about Turkey <https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLwbtR7CUAASWSe.jpg:large>

</comment><comment><USER92> This is ridiculous. These synthetic news making to top of HN. Let me wrap up the situation very shortly: You know Ingress? That alternate reality game, yes. Scribbles like this are alternate reality too, so they have tie-ins with reality. But unlike Ingress, they are so far off from reality and so illogical; they are neither compelling nor fun! BTW, I'm writing this from the peaceful Turkey :)

</comment><comment><USER93> Watch this : <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIiWHMnM94>

</comment><comment><USER94> Very less covered in India too - I see only firstpost having a story on this. Even the largest paper - TOI has not even mentioned turky on their homepage.

[http://www.firstpost.com/world/protesters-defiant-as- turkey-...](http://www.firstpost.com/world/protesters-defiant-as-turkey- unrest-goes-into-third-day-834053.html)

<comment><USER21> In comparison, Die Zeit[0] (liberal) has a number of articles currently in slot three of the homepage (slot one is describing floods), Die Süddeutsche[1] (liberal/left) in slot four (they're based in Munich, so the most important bit is apparently football) and FAZ[2] (conservative) around slot three, too, where slot one is about education. No idea what their printed edition looked like (SZ and FAZ are daily newspapers, Die Zeit is a weekly one). The German word for Turkey is Türkei.

[0] <http://www.zeit.de/index>

[1] <http://www.sueddeutsche.de/>

[2] <http://www.faz.net/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER95> Two of the Facebook pages with continuous updates:

<https://www.facebook.com/geziparkidirenisi> (330,000 Likes in less than 72 hours)

<https://www.facebook.com/OccupyGezi>

</comment><comment><USER57> <http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com>

[https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.459147254177879.10...](https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.459147254177879.1073741824.100002478261619&type=1)

</comment><comment><USER96> I just hope Turkey doesn't end like another country where the people die in the hand of the government while the international community watch with their hands folded because it's on their best interest to destroy another muslin country - like Syria.

</comment><comment><USER97> Who specifically is responsible for the government's actions? What can we do to assist?

</comment><comment><USER98> Aljezera has had this story in their line-up for a couple f days now, not sure what they said about it because I wasn't overly concerned. Nothing on BBC though. So atleast one international news organisation is getting the word out.

<comment><USER99> Nothing?

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744728> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744895> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22740506> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20028295> <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22740038>

Why would you say something so absolute with out even checking? Are you one of those weirdo instant BBC haters?

<comment><USER98> It wasn't in the news, atleast that I saw. It wasn't a headlining on TV

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER100> To follow along, there's also Flickr and a search for "Istanbul" and "Gezi" : [https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=istanbul+gezi&s=rec](https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=istanbul+gezi&s=rec)

</comment><comment><USER101> Thanks for filling me in. I was walking down Market Street yesterday and about 100 people were protesting with signs. I couldn't understand what they were saying nor could I read their signs as most weren't in English.

</comment><comment><USER18> It's civil unrest, with an upgrade to civil war, revolution possible.

</comment><comment><USER67> By the way, can anyone tell me how a _Revolution_ or occupation anywhere in the world has any link with _Hacking_ that the news featured on HN?

<comment><USER102> What? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Might want to edit it to make it clearer.

Anyway, I think you are wondering why this news is on Hackernews. I'd say it's because there are a lot of politically conscience people here, who care about what's going on in the world.

One point I think people miss is that the content of this site does not necessarily have to be related to tech (though usually is). I personally come here for the discussion that results from the submissions, and world news like this is important to me. And I'd like to be able to discuss the news/situation with other people of similar educations, vocations and mindsets.

<comment><USER67> Hackers are Humans as I know so they have interest in other stuff as well, does this mean we will be expecting posts about Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga in near future?

<comment><USER103> If they have the certain je ne sais quoi to attract enough views and upvotes, sure. For what it's worth, not every non-tech related political, financial, or social news article hits the front page. Certainly at most times there may be one to three non-tech focused news story on the front page, but that's usually the limit. And this particular story is at least tangentially related to tech, what with the prominent role social media is playing in the ongoing events.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER104> <http://showdiscontent.com> \--- here is some pictures about what happening..

</comment><comment><USER105> Why don't people identify the policemen and make their social life (outside of their police duty) a living hell. Bully their kids in school, boycott their spouses, refuse to do any kind of business with them (no groceries, no milk, etc.)

At some point people have to be held personally responsible for their wrong doings. They shouldn't be absolved of personal responsibility just because they're in the police force, which is being commanded by some nutcrack dictator.

<comment><USER106> Did their children do any wrong? Since when did you start to punish other people instead? You'll also want to "mark their houses" at some point...

Please think before you write such things. That's not outright hate speech but it sure leads to hateful actions.

<comment><USER105> The idea was not to advocate hate crime, but social boycott. The idea is to make people personally responsible for the organizations that they work for. Is there any other solution for this mess?

In the end it's people from within the society that join governmental organizations and inflict torture / injustice on rest of the society.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER107> This article is grossly misleading. Papers and televisions are showing what is going on, one can read from internet, and express his opinion. Turkey is a democracy with multi party system similar to France since 1946. Unfortunately the minority group who held the power in Turkey for decades lost their control of most of the government and state after years of corruption with 2002 elections. In 2001 Turkish economy experienced a similar economic meltdown after a "soft" coup of the people who support and make the current demonstrations. The economic repercussions was so deep it effected almost everyone similar to what has been going on in Greece and Spain. Since then the new government handled economy and democratic process so well, even in the current terrible economic situation of the world Turkey managed to become the fastest growing economy in Europe. Turkey has made the last debt payment to IMF couple of weeks ago. For the first time her existence Turkish economy's credit rating became investment grade by Moody's on May 17th this year[1]. Most importantly the clash with the Kurdish minority ended with a new peace process. This is by far the most important achievement of the current government given the 30 years of history of violence in South Easy of Turkey. Over 40K people have died since it started in 1980.

The person who wrote this article and those demonstrators are hoping to show their anger towards the government akin to Egypt's Tahrir Square demonstrations. However this is all reading it backwards. Current government is popularly supported by the people and the support has increased with each consecutive poll since 2002, leading to 50% [3] of the popular vote the last time. This government is leading a commission and effort to write a new constituition to raise the standards of human rights in Turkey. This is one of the biggest selling point to end the Kurdish violence since they now feel their rights will be protected better in the future. Current constitution is put together in 1980 by the people who engineered the last "hard" coup in Turkey [5], a coup literally executed with brute force, guns and tanks. With this government the efforts to get into EU increased tremendously [6] and actually it has been their strategy to balance the power in Turkey against Military's long standing anti-democratic ambitions and practices.

Recent demonstrations at a park in Istanbul got bigger by exploiting the grossly wrong police brutality. Unfortunately where there is demonstration be it in US [7], Spain [8] or Greece [9], in any country the police is very heavy handed. Otherwise the park that is in middle of the city is part of project [10] that will transform the area and close all the motor vehicle traffic and allow only pedestrians. This is going to be done by diverting traffic to underground roads that will be build as part of the project. Decision for the project taken by the people who was elected including members both from ruling and opposition party, and was voted unanimously.

Author of this article and those demonstrators are supporting the old regime. A regime that dictates certain ideology build around a cult leader like the ones in former Soviet Union, China and North Korea. Ours is Ataturk. You have to think like them, act like them, speak like them, live like them. During my mandatory military service I was forced to memorize who is Ataturk which was a list of 10 items that goes like this: 1) Ataturk was the best person in the world 2) Ataturk was best statesman in the world 3) Ataturk is the best military leader in the world. And thise list goes on and on...

Let me give you an example of what this people againts. Can you buy liquor after certain hours in States? Can you walk with an open beer can, alcohol bottle? No, because in States, varying by state, shops can not sell alcohol after 10pm or 2am. For example in England even places where liquor served as part of the service has to close by 1am. When this government made a similar, banning sale of alchol from 10pm to 6am, these people made a big noise. This is one of the arguments they have been telling during these demonstrations.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to- in...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-investment- grade-by-moody-s-on-debt-cuts.html) [2] [http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central- ku...](http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-kurdish- peace-process) [3] <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13740147> [4] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s- kurtulmus-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-kurtulmus- sets-july-deadline-for-new-constitution.html) [5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%C3%A9tat> [6] <http://www.cfr.org/turkey/turkeys-eu-bid/p8939> [7] [http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper- spraye...](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-sprayed- students-settle-3896116.php) [8] [http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot- polic...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-police) [9] <http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-police-brutality-2011-6> [10] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opean5HeR-8>

<comment><USER92> This wraps up the 'real' situation perfectly. Well put, sir. As a Turkish citizen, thank you for speaking the truth!

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> Turkey doesn't fluoridate their water. Just sayin'. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country>

<comment><USER109> Neither does Portland: [http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/22/4355312/portland- residents...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/22/4355312/portland-residents- reject-bid-to-fluoridate-city)

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> Who says city planning isn't a big deal?

</comment><comment><USER111> > Control over the decisions I make concerning my on my body

It's nice to see that the fight against heroin prohibition is being fought in Turkey too!

</comment><comment><USER112> nice

</comment><comment><USER113> > Two young people were run over by the tanks and were killed.

That is extremely serious. My condolences with those who lost their lives, and best wishes for your friend to recover from her injury.

While we all discuss and throw ourselves around when a dying industry (read Hollywood) misbehaves and tries to screw with our Internet freedoms, free speech etc. I wonder what would when happen when the same fate, and it is coming, falls on the Governments of the world.

A dying model of Governance could take things to a rather unprecedented level of nastiness and cruelty.

<comment><USER8> "We" don't really do anything consistently. When it's Hollywood or SOPA or NSLs or wiretaps "we" are passionately anti-government, when it's AirBnB or Uber flaunting local restrictions, "we" are very skeptical and when it's Google not paying enough tax, "we" are government cheerleaders.

That said:

> A dying model of Governance could take things to a rather unprecedented > level of nastiness and cruelty.

You haven't paid much attention these last 250 years?

<comment><USER114> Doesn't that just sound like "we're" pro citizen?

<comment><USER8> Any half-competent political hack can spin anything so it's "pro citizen". A staggering proportion of citizens are in favour for the privacy/security trade off, it's just that We Know Better(tm). Of course Google and Apple should pay their fair share, I just can't get excited about it, I don't see how adding more money to the same semi-corrupt deeply immoral special interests buffet that brought you SOPA, and simultaneously distracting from the ongoing scandals of the political system, benefits anyone but the politicians.

<comment><USER114> you don't think government spending benefits anyone but politicians? So for instance, medicare only benefits politicians?

<comment><USER8> Well, Medicare is underfunded to the tune of $38T. If all of Google and Apple was liquified at current market cap and put towards funding that liability, it would be underfunded by at little more than $37T. Retroactively cancelling the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would give you cash to knock the number down to $36T.

Of course people benefiting from Medicare benefits from Medicare, but "championing" Medicare benefits only politicians, because they know better than anyone else that it's going to go away, soon, but they'll happily lie about it in order to get reelected while they wait for it to happen.

<comment><USER114> By the same token wouldn't farming be worthless because we know the sun will explode in the future?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER115> The tearing down of trees for commercial and residential areas is happening here too. It's called urban sprawl. Land developers wipe out natural habitats like forests and leave sterile, artificial suburbs and plazas in its stead.

Most citizens never hear about it until it's too late because it's not easy to find out about the latest zonings. Trying to have a say in the process? Well, that's a whole new level of obfuscation.

The process is confusing for a reason: to keep concerned citizens like you and me out.

What is happening in Istanbul is happening here too.

<comment><USER116> This isn't urban sprawl, this isn't the tearing down of forests. This is removing a park in the middle of the city. Imaging if they came in and bulldozed Central Park.

<comment><USER117> You actually raise an interesting parallel: poor communities and planning organizations had railed against the bulldozers of Robert Moses for decades, but in the media he could do no wrong. That was before he tried to build in Central Park. When his policies finally threatened a beloved playground to build private parking, a group well-to-do mothers on the Upper West Side stood up and it triggered the beginning of his downfall.

<comment><USER118> while trying to build a parking lot in central park is part of moses' downfall, the picture painted here is not really accurate to my knowledge. for one, a lot of stuff was built in central park during moses' reign as parks commissioner, particularly early on: something like 20 playgrounds, including the demolition of the casino restaurant for rumsey playground; a ton of ball fields; tavern on the green; major changes to the central park zoo. more to the point, characterizing residents of the UWS in the 60s as well-to-do is particularly odd. Like the residents of greenwich village more commonly associated with Moses' downfall, I would think that middle class is the far more accurate description.

<comment><USER117> Yes, Moses built many things in the park. But more to the point, the many famous and well-heeled mothers and residents of west 67th street involved in the protest listed at the beginning of chapter 42 of "The Power Broker" makes your comment particularly odd.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER119> Im confused by the use of the occupy lingo. Is occupy just a meme now for any protest?

<comment><USER22> What's confusing about it? They were calling for protestors to "occupy" the park to prevent it being bulldozed.

Or at least that's how it started.

<comment><USER120> What's confusing is: in the USA, the term "occupy" has been taken as a practical trademark for a series of organized political protests. Look up "Occupy Wall Street" as the first and primary instance.

<comment><USER22> Hard to ignore the stereotype of the American who knows little of what happens beyond their borders :(

The Occupy Movement was a global one, with protests in over 80 countries. It started there, but it wasn't just a Wall St. thing.

<comment><USER120> 'scuze me for not keeping up on the happenings in each of ~200 countries, and assuming not everyone everywhere is keeping up on the latest in my sphere of awareness.

Yes, Occupy was global. I don't know who from where knows how much about it. I was answering a question about why someone might be confused by usage of the term "occupy" when it was unclear whether it was an "Occupy"-brand event vs "hey let's go occupy this space to save it". I referenced the Wall St. thing precisely because that's where Occupy started.

Besides, <http://xkcd.com/1053/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER121> This was a posted by a friend on Facebook:

Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP.

Turkey was ruled by ultra-nationalist ultra-secular militarist groups for decades. The military overthrow several elected governments and jailed politicians. Torture, extra-judicial killings, suppression, and corruption were widespread. The laws that people often object to are from that area and the constitution written by Turkish military, including insulting Turkishness being a crime. These groups who are sometimes referred to as Kemalists had the control of military, judicatory, academia, media, etc. Yet, they couldn't tolerate even the government being in the hands of people they didn't like. The large majority of Turks who are practicing Muslims were excluded. It was illegal to wear a head-scarf in universities and government departments in a country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf. Essentially these women were banned from attending university. Public officials and even university professors would be thrown out and even jailed if they showed any sign of nonsecular tendency. Writers and intellects were jailed for expressing opinions against Kemalist ideology. Erdogan, the current prime minister was jailed and banned from politics for 10 years for reading an old poem while he was the mayor of Istanbul. The existence of Kurds who are around 20 percent of Turkey's population were completely denied (not a joke)! Speaking or reading in Kurdish was banned and the popular Turkish singer Ahmad Kaya was forced to exile for saying that he will record an album in Kurdish. Popular political parties were closed regularly even when they won elections decisively. The news of corruption in police and politics was a regular daily routine as was the news of human rights violations.

In the years before AKP there were several short-lived governments by parties both on the left and on the right. Inflation was very high (hyperinflation), unemployment was high, governments were unstable. The value of Turkish lira dropped to a third in one night. Nightly interest rates tripled to completely ridiculous amount of 139%. You can look at Greece these days to have an idea of Turkey of that time. Turkish foreign policy was essentially dictated by the US government. There was a very harsh IMF imposed economic program so Turkey could pay its debts and a technocrat from world bank was imposed as the economy minister on the Turkish government to make sure they will implement what IMF wanted. The government and the country were in such a bad shape that it is almost unimaginable today after 12 years of AKP.

AKP was formed at that time. Erdogan was still under the ban from politics as well as many prominent politicians from his previous party. But some other politicians from the party were not under the ban. They created a new party: AKP (Justice and Development Party). Its members were moderate and pragmatist politicians from the banned party plus several other pragmatist and moderates from other right of the center parties. The current Turkish President Gul became the head of the party though Erdogan was significantly involved behind the senses. The party won a landslide election and has been continuously doing so for over a decade, increasing its share of votes in every election. You have to know that the length of Turkish governments before AKP to get a feeling of its significance: a few months!

Over a decade AKP has modernized Turkey, removed many of the laws that EU objected to, fought corruption in police and politics, improved the economy to its current amazing state, forced military out of politics, ... Until Syrian crises it had perfect relations with its neighbors. It followed what I would consider an awesome independent foreign policy. It is trying to find a political solution to the Kurdish "problem" and the right of Kurds have improved significantly under AKP. The list of AKP's achievements can go on.

So what is the problem? The problem is that the support base of AKP is not the western oriented seculars, it is the conservative majority who didn't have a voice in politics for decades (the silent majority) as the Kemalist and what Turks call "Deep Government" didn't allow the political parties supported by them. In all elections AKP has lost in the touristic Mediterranean coastal cities and European parts. You can find the map of the last general election results here:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_2011>

Yellow is AKP, red is CHP, and light green is MHP. The south eastern parts are Kurdish areas where independent Kurdish politicians won.

The protests that you see these days are by this secular minority who has been voting for CHP (around 25%, significant, but still a minority).

Now, what are these alternative parties?

MHP is an ultra-nationalist racist conservative far-right party. Look up Wikipedia if you want to know more about them.

CHP is the party of the founder of the Turkey, ruled Turkey for decades in a one-party system, is a Kemalist party. It had strong relations with Turkish military, right now it is essentially the party supported by the elite who ruled Turkey before AKP and their supporters. The elite tried to topple AKP government undemocratically. Try to see if they objected to continuous serious violations of human rights before AKP.

Obviously I don't agree with everything that AKP and Erdogan do. However, AKP (and Erdogan) is definitely the best thing that has happened to Turkey over many decades, and Turks know it. That is the reason AKP keeps increasing its share of vote in elections. They are creating a strong developed democratic lawful independent Turkey. When you hear about protests in Turkey against AKP and Erdogan being authoritarian it is good to remember this context.

One final thing: AKP is often criticized for ignoring secular Turkish citizens who have not voted for AKP. Watch Erdogan's victory speech after winning the last election in which AKP further increased its share of votes. His attitude was completely humble and reconciliatory.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is not Erdogan and AKP being arrogant and authoritarian, but rather the secular minority demanding more than their fair share. I mean they objected to the removal of the ban on head-scarves for students attending university and consider it Islamization of Turkey (a country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf).

<comment><USER122> Where does the 70% came from? Do you have a source for this? It would be better to check how many "scarf-wearers" are going to universities, this percentage would be meaningful. My opinion is that universities should be religion-free as science doesn't play well with religion.

I think that the problem might be that the (nonsecular) east wants to rule the (secular) west and viceversa.

<comment> mc-lovin "religion-free" is a highly ambiguous term. Can you clarify?

I think that a person has a right to wear whatever clothing they feel appropriate, assuming they aren't committing indecent exposure and they don't have giant spikes protruding from their clothing that could endanger others.

Can you clarify what individual rights you think exist on university campuses, and how these interact with your goal of keeping universities "religion-free"?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER123> Is Facebook the one blocking the occupygezi pages or is it the government somehow?

<comment><USER113> Yes unlike Google, Facebook seemingly easily bends over to censor free speech and citizen pages when the local Government asks them to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Another _sponsored_ revolution.

<comment><USER124> That comment merits an explanation.

<comment><USER125> Some people find it deeply unsettling that someone could hold different political views sincerely. They cope with it by assuming the others are compensated in some form for their abnormal behavior.

When I protested in my homeland I heard accusations of being paid to do this, even the price was specified ($20). Twenty bucks to go into a harsh cold night to be assaulted by police and possibly imprisoned on terrorism charges, what a deal :)

<comment><USER124> Strange kneejerk reaction since the commenter is from Pakistan. If he has some actual reason to believe this I'd like to hear it for discussion's sake.

<comment><USER67> Not knee jerk reaction, my mistake I did not expain at first place as I wrongly assumed readers would like to make attempts to learn facts.

<comment><USER124> Clearly from my comments you would see that I am interested in learning facts so don't act so wounded. However, so far all you have presented is the idea that if the US sponsors some protests against an Islamic government, all protests against Islamic governments are created by US sponsorship. It's not very convincing without evidence.

<comment><USER67> Evidence. So far many things world believed didn't have any evidence, for instance WMD.

Coming to your main Question, If you look how Egypt Spring started, it was all to getrid of Mobarak, US, the former ally of Mobarak left em all alone as did it in past.

I could share articles like this([http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/50553/wikileaks-u-s- governme...](http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/50553/wikileaks-u-s-government- behind-egypt-revolution/)) one but I left you upto you to figure out.

Point is, every _revolution_ got started turned against US; be it Tunisia, Egypt and now Turkey.

Those who are protesting will be crying out loud if some stern Islamic leader comes all of sudden and rule upon them.

<comment><USER27> I understand you're from a part of the world where a lot of people are not fond of America (for both valid and invalid reasons, in my opinion). The same thing these people in Turkey are fighting against is going on all over the world, INCLUDING the US.

I hope you understand that like pretty much everywhere, there are "good and decent" people and some "bad" people. Unfortunately, the "bad" people always seem to be the sorts who want to force other people to live their way, while the "good" people mostly want to live their lives the way they want and not force other people. It's as true of America as it is of Pakistan.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


DIY Cyborg - man implants chip into his arm - <AUTHOR> http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-diy-cyborg

<comment><USER2> Love this! Have an magnetic implant on my own and it's totally exciting where these guys are taking BodyMod! Awesome!</comment>