CyanogenMod Installer Application Removed from Play Store - <AUTHOR> http://www.cyanogenmod.org/blog/cyanogenmod-installer-application-removed-from-play-store <comment><USER3> With the CM Installer in the play store many lay-people started using it, rendering their phones unusable[1] when any little issue cropped up.

Also the process wasn't foolproof even for people capable of dealing with technical issues[2].

It isn't polished enough to go in the play store IMO. I don't know WTF the cyanogenmod team was thinking, non-technical people messing with CM will just lead to negative press.

1: [http://www.reddit.com/r/nexus4/comments/1qkfaw/cannot_uninst...](http://www.reddit.com/r/nexus4/comments/1qkfaw/cannot_uninstall_cm_version_from_the_play_store/)

2: [http://www.reddit.com/r/nexus4/comments/1qi5lw/official_cyan...](http://www.reddit.com/r/nexus4/comments/1qi5lw/official_cyanogenmod_installer_released_our_phone/cdd8bfg)

<comment><USER4> But that is only one person whose phone is rendered unusable and not many as you insinuate. Same thing happened with PS4 launch when people reported issues, but statistic turned out to be <1%. This app is exactly for the non- technical people to stop messing around. [http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/11/android-roms-the- easy...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/11/android-roms-the-easy-way- testing-the-new-cyanogenmod-installer/)

<comment><USER5> If an app bricks one phone in ten thousand, that's too much for the Play store. That doesn't mean the package can't exist outside of the Play store.

In fact, the ability to install something outside of the Play store framework seems like one good test for whether someone is ready to make the jump.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It seems like no matter how blatantly Google carries out it's updated "Microsoft from the 1990's" act there will be a coterie of apologists on HN explaining away it's actions. The Cold War provided an appropriate label for this crowd: "useful idiots".

<comment><USER7> CM phones home by default. There's a word for software like that: Malware. The Play Store shouldn't have malware.

<comment><USER8> Seriously? You realize how many apps on the market use Google Analytics or some other form of Analytics? Nearly all of them, including Google's Apps. Nearly all of them give absolutely no way to opt out either short of host blocking. However, CM gives you an option to under device settings.

<comment><USER7> So that's the standard we want to hold them to? Just a little better than Google?

Why isn't it opt-in?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I view this move as hypocritical of Google, it does feel like it's in their customers' best interest.

Think about it from a less technical perspective: I can install an app from the official Google Play store that _voids my warranty_.

They can't have that on their public facing store. Google wants users to install apps, they don't want them to be afraid of voiding their warranty.

It's interesting to see how things played out over the last few years.

Google has been moving towards a more controlled environment, from something that was initially billed as open.

Apple started completely locked down with a strong customer focus, and has cautiously been making their policies more developer friendly.

I personally prefer Apple's approach, as it was always about the end user — but as a developer I was sometimes envious of Google's lenient policy. Google's assertion of control now makes me more interested in developing for their platform.

<comment><USER10> Always about the end user?

Like when Apple said that all Apps needed to be originally written in their crappy language, and that you could not cross-compile to it?

That had literally nothing to do with the end user, and everything to do with trying to enforce a monopoly.

<comment><USER11> > _That had literally nothing to do with the end user, and everything to do > with trying to enforce a monopoly._

That word, monopoly. I don't think it means what you think it means.

What they were trying to enforce was a common programming language for all apps that they could improve in tandem with the OS, so they wouldn't be held hostage in the future to be backwards compatible to some popular runtime (like Flash once threatened to be for the Web).

P.S And "crappy language", really? As far as pragmatic languages lean on resources for native coding go, Objective-C is up there with the best of them. Not to mention the breadth and the maturity of the Cocoa libs.

<comment><USER12> Objective C is so good that no one ever chooses to use it outside of Apple world.

<comment><USER13> This is the same as criticizing C# because nobody uses it outside of Microsoft world - or Java on mobile because nobody uses it outside of Android.

<comment><USER14> err.. I think there are lot of mono software written in c# that runs on Ubuntu .. and Java not used outside of Android? ROFL

<comment><USER11> > _I think there are lot of mono software written in c# that runs on Ubuntu_

Not as much as you think. Mono is a niche product too.

> _and Java not used outside of Android? ROFL_

He said "Java on mobile". Perhaps try to understand what you read before rolling on the floor?

Java mobile (or "end user" apps in general) are Android, some crapplets, and that is mainly.

If it weren't for development tools for Java devs (Eclipse, NetBeans, etc) and some internal enterprise monstrocities people are forced to use, there wouldn't be any Java desktop adoption either.

<comment><USER12> You're really reaching if you are trying to argue that Java isn't popular.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> At this point it really looks like Google have zero interest in seeing Android improve, beyond ensuring it stays superficially in line with iOS or Windows Phone, and will use whatever means necessary to ensure no one else does it while desperately trying to shoe horn irrelevant features into Chrome in an effort to reach feature parity.

The clause about no forking with the SDK is probably going to rear its head in anger soon.

<comment><USER16> This is complete bullshit, they've improved the runtime and performance in the most recent version among other things.

It's not at all surprising that this application was removed would you expect to see an install Ubuntu application in the Mac or Windows app stores?

<comment><USER17> The most recent version... that I cannot install in my Galaxy Nexus, which is barely two years old.

I've been an Apple hater all my life, but this, Google, this is epic bullshit.

<comment><USER11> > _I 've been an Apple hater all my life_

Isn't that a sad thing to be?

And for most people mostly stemming out of reverse hipsterism, nonetheless...

<comment><USER18> That's not a sad thing to be, at least recently. Apple is one of the major enemies of personal computing freedom.

<comment><USER11> I don't know, I seen to have a free compiler on my Apple laptop.

And a handheld mobile OS with unprecedented capabilities people would be dreaming of just a decade ago -- that I can code for by spending like $100, including the ability to release my apps to half a billion with credit cards at the ready.

Perhaps if you're young enough to only remember the "everything must be FOSS" times, and not the times we paid $100-$300 for a proprietary compiler this seems very restrictive.

<comment><USER18> I guess you can download the LLVM source but that has nothing to do with Apple.

> that I can code for by spending like $100

Odd that you think that's freedom, because I can put my own apps on my own phone for actual free. I can put other people's apps on my own phone without signing up for an app store and without a third party's permission. I can send my apps to anyone I want and charge them via my own payment processor if I want.

I agree we now have a "handheld mobile OS with unprecedented capabilities" and that iOS and the App Store were incredibly innovative a few years ago. But the problem is not whether or not I am allowed to develop an app, the problem is whether or not I am allowed to use my device on my terms. I couldn't even add a caller blacklist on iOS.

Also let's say I without any argument accept the idea that the past was less free. That still doesn't make what Apple are doing now free in any shape or form, that's just a flat-out logical fallacy. If you have to appeal to a worse past to explain how you are relatively free you have basically conceded the argument.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I think this is completely reasonable. If people want to sideload the app then by all means go for it. The Play Store shouldn't allow apps that can potentially damage your device (or void your warranty).

<comment><USER20> It's reasonable and not. The installer is a tool for assisted rooting. Yes, that's dangerous and voids warranties. But just search for "root" on the Play Store and you'll find _thousands_ of apps designed to exploit and utilize that status. These are great features, and Google clearly allows them...

That said, part of me is chuckling internally that CM got caught being unable to distribute their proprietary (windows-only!) "installer" solution through Google's proprietary distribution channel. There are open source paths to a solution here, and CM didn't even try...

<comment><USER21> An application that only runs if your warranty is already voided, and an application that actually voids your warranty are two very different things.

You've got to remember google's position here - for the majority of phones sold, they aren't the manufacturer or the warranty provider. If they allow cyanogen in the play store and it creates a huge warranty headache for Samsung or Sony or any other OEM that includes the play store by default, it jeopardizes google's ability to distribute the Play Store.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Android isn't open. It's Google's and they want to keep it this way. iOS isn't open. It's Apple's and they want to keep it that way.

The open spiel was pure marketing to gain market share. Now that they have it, they are locking things down to maintain control. Threatening decertification, requiring google play services, certification by a private party,...

Now that the open argument no longer works, people are defending it as pro consumer. Hogwash.

Edit: [http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/18/cyanogen- mod-7m-benchmark/](http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/18/cyanogen- mod-7m-benchmark/)

Cyanogen has basically become a competitor to Google

</comment><comment><USER23> The new CM installer nearly bricked my phone! This would be a warrenty/customer support nightmare for Verizon/ATT/Samsung/HTC/whoever.

Preface: I consider myself a fairly advanced power user on linux as a hobby, and I'm a computer technician/sysadmin [Windows] by day. I've had two Android phones over the past two years.

I have a Verizon Galaxy Nexus and was pissed that Verizon decided that phone was not to get 4.3 let alone Google decided no 4.4 for the Galaxy Nexus...(Each iteration of Android broke more things like speech to text.) Rather than wait for the never coming updates I started studying how to flash Cyanogenmod onto this. It looked a bit convoluted even compared to flashing firmware onto micro-contollers. Then the app hit the Play store and I figured I would give it a shot.

The app showed you what settings needed changed (like enable USB debugging) and how to do them, even to the point of opening the settings screens for you. A casual user would never even be able to find the settings again after that first opening. It would be akin to going straight to the Computer Management console in Windows or loading up fstab in Linux without telling a casual end user how to get there! My install process did not go smooth. The first thing it had wrong was the connection mode, said to use Camera Mode PTP instead of MTP. That is flat out wrong for this phone and it won't connect. Then during the bootloader/rooting process, which the installer fully automatically does for you(!) a critical USB driver failed to install and it locked the phone up. The soft power button does not respond here and luckily I was able to pull the battery to reset. If this was a Nexus 4 or 5...I would have been praying that once the battery died I could still power it up for a recharge; a very good possibility it would have been bricked. Now that the software is installed I have no Photosphere in the camera and I can no longer connect to my work exchange calendar. I also managed to lose a few stored contacts somehow. I knew to backup my pictures/docs/data but a typical user would not.

Now imagine a typical consumer has just purchased a Galaxy S4 on contract for $199. They flash CM onto it and now best case they call Verizon/ATT/Samsung wanting to know why feature X isn't working or why they lost the phone numbers of their friends/family – or worse their baby pictures/movies. Now that company either says 'Go fly a kite' or reflashes and they still have data loss. If the phone bricks they will be shocked to learn they will need to pony up $650 to replace it replace it!

</comment><comment><USER24> Understandable. If people don't know how to enable developer mode, Adb debugging, sideload apps, etc..., they shouldn't be messing around with modding their phone. It really doesn't belong in the Play store.

</comment><comment><USER25> Good old Googlesoft.

<comment><USER26> Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

<comment><USER27> It's a nice attempt at being pithy but in this case it's more Open, Embrace, Moderate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is less a matter of Google being evil or hypocritical. Google is just being dumb. CyanogenMod is an important part of the Android ecosystem, and should be an even more important part of that ecosystem.

Google should encourage aftermarket Android distributions. They serve the customers who want a truly open source Android and they serve the orphaned devices users.

It you RTFA, you see that the app has a very simple function and mostly serves to enable discovery of CyanogenMod. The actual installation requires a Windows PC.

</comment><comment><USER29> Customers buy a phone. That phone is loaded with terrible, awful, software and unpleasant branding. Customers want to remove that software and that branding.

One way is to use scary software like Cyanogenmod.

There is not other way.

Maybe Google and customers need to start pressuring carriers to stop loading phones with this awful software?

<comment><USER30> Maybe customers should stop buying awful software? There are plenty of offerings, including Google's own phone. What more can Google do? Close off Android to crapware providers and they'll have the wrath of the community donning their pitchforks. This thread alone should be an example of how irrational some folks are, crying fowl at Google for not wanting brickware in their store.

<comment><USER31> Selling their own phone in more countries would be a good start. Even in the countries where they do sell the phone, they often only sell it via their web store, so user's who don't research phones beyond walking into a phone shop don't know it exists.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> This entire fiasco with the Android ecosystem stems from locked down bootloaders. How many people have bricked their PC's by installing a different OS on them? Why can we not have the same model for phones: If you brick it, some tiny bit of ROM can be invoked which connects to the Internet, downloads, verifies, and installs the latest carrier approved OS. This simple fail safe means that it is impossible to brick a phone and I bet instructions for how to initiate this reset could be made very simple. Instead, it seems that the OS and the bootloader are tightly coupled and the OS can actually screw up the bootloader, which is the root of all Android evil.

</comment><comment><USER33> I have just download CyanogenMod Installer from Google Play Store and still have it in my now Android KitKat-running Nexus 4.

I intended to install CyanogenMod 10.1.3 which is based on Android Jelly Bean 4.2.2, on my nexus 4. I have not done so.

\---

I also have the intention to install the stock Android Jelly Bean 4.3 on the same nexus 4; downgrading from Android KitKat 4.4.

I found that Android KitKat on Nexus 4 (and Nexus 5) now redirect tethering network traffic to the carrier login page, specifically T-Mobile USA. Strangely, I had no problems using the built-in tethering (Nexus 4 - <USER2> KitKat combo) with AT&T network.

<comment><USER34> This can be disabled, just google it.

<comment><USER33> I know how to do that and it generally requires roting the device or buying an app.

It really bothers me to find out that Google is taking away a feature specifically to appease T-Mobile. Pure Android experience no more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> If Google knowingly allowed their app store to host software that harms carrier-supported devices, they might easily be in breach of contract with those carriers. This is a defensive move.

</comment><comment><USER36> I like how [http://www.cyanogenmod.org/](http://www.cyanogenmod.org/) doesn't really tell you what it is or why I would want it.

<comment><USER37> [http://i.imgur.com/EEmBXsq.png](http://i.imgur.com/EEmBXsq.png)

<comment><USER36> Documentation is for if I already want it, not for figuring out what the thing is. And if you follow the link to [http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/CyanogenMod_Installer](http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/CyanogenMod_Installer) you still don't find any reason to use it (whatever "it" is)

This question is the closest, lets hope people click on it too: >Why flash CyanogenMod? >There are many reasons to consider for flashing your device. Check out our Why Mod? page for more info!

[http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/Why_Mod%3F](http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/Why_Mod%3F)

Then goes on to talk about moding (I guess CyanogenMod is a "mod", but it doesn't explicitly say so right off the bat) and goes on to talk about the cons and pros of modding, but doesn't actually tell you why I would want CyanogenMod until I scroll more than a page down to a bunch of similar screenshots.

So three links deep hidden in the bottom half of a wiki page is a (even complete?) feature set of CyanogenMod. Again cyanogenmod flat out fails to tell new users what they do and why I might want it on the main page. I wonder what the bounce rate on the main page is.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> A better compromise would have been to just enforce a modal warning message in the play store, such as:

"Warning! This app can brick your device. Google is not responsible for its damages, and you may loose other warranties, too!"

Regarding kids, that would overlook the warning, they still have to download the PC software. So the procedure isn't significantly more simplified than going directly to the website.

</comment><comment><USER39> Unlike appstore where most accounts is password protected on download because of credit card associated with their account. Most android phone user don't set such restriction, and what truth is most kids just download whatever they saw on playstore. Google did the right thing to remove a dangerous app with potential to break your device.

</comment><comment><USER40> When Google is saying CyanogenMod is voiding warranties, are they talking about warranties from the hardware manufacturers? It feels like the OS is open, but the Hardware is not.

<comment><USER41> Yes. So have fun spending 800 dollars to replace your phone when it is bricked, but as expected many here instantly jumped on the google hate train.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> _Fortunately, Android is open enough_

Well, make CyanogenMod Installer Application open enough and put it onto F-droid.

Don't wan't to? Well, neither GOOG ...so much about openness PR.

</comment><comment><USER43> Well there are other ways in which you can crack an android phone, cyanogen was just a noob friendly way to do so...

</comment><comment><USER44> Windows only? Are you joking around?

</comment><comment><USER45> put it on fdroid

</comment><comment><USER46> Google is a new Apple?

</comment><comment><USER7> As long as CM phones home, it shouldn't be in the Play Store.</comment>


WebKit: 3D Transforms - <AUTHOR> http://webkit.org/blog/386/3d-transforms/ <comment><USER2> This is great stuff--bringing OS X's Core Animation technology to web apps.

Apple is betting both on the desktop and on the (open standards) web, and letting both compete freely.

Microsoft seems to want to cripple IE to prevent web apps from overtaking the desktop (or else they've got some other wierd motivation that cripples its forward motion in areas like CSS standards, 2d/3d canvas, Javascript features/performance; or perhaps they're hoping to make their proprietary Silverlight the chosen method for delivering desktop-like apps.)

(Sorry, don't mean to be a fanboi--lots to criticize about Apple's overall behavior, but at least in this area they seem to be thinking right.)

<comment><USER3> Now we must hope that Microsoft's market share won't force these new features to remain niche. As long as IE retains a lot of market share while not including these new features, the web can only go forward so far.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Compared to authoring 3-D any other way, turning parts of the DOM to 3-D is just smart. Built-in textures, text, it's really 5x easier to author this than anything before it.

</comment><comment><USER5> This will only be interesting if Mozilla and Opera pick it up (which _might_ force MS to pick it up, but nobody can bet on that happening).

I don't buy the cloud computing hype, but following browser technology is always fun. Oh, and it's WebKit, so free upvote.

</comment><comment><USER6> Does anyone else worry that these animations are going to get seriously misused? I know they look pretty cool, but I can definitely see them becoming the post-Web-2.0 blink and marquee tags

Also, shouldn't animation be part of Javascript rather than CSS as it's more to do with behaviour rather than presentation?

<comment><USER7> I'd argue that most simple UI animations are in fact presentational, not behavioral.

One of the nice things about defining animations declaratively in CSS instead of procedurally in Javascript is that browsers will have control over the implementation. Your browser could easily have a "no animations" mode, or selectively disable certain animation types. Browsers can implement animations much more efficiently if they don't have to call Javascript every frame, and they can also separate animation from whatever else the page is doing; animations could be slowed or stopped in background tabs or low-battery situations while the page's Javascript continues running.

<comment><USER8> Not to mention that it'll do wonders for keeping pages accessible where we'd otherwise risk people making them a mess of javascript...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Fwiw the demo runs great on the iPhone 3GS. Looks like it's at least running at 15fps.

<comment><USER10> Here's an older CoverFlow iPhone demo: [http://css- vfx.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/examples/zflow_snow....](http://css- vfx.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/examples/zflow_snow.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Sweet, animated d-20's.

</comment><comment><USER12> Oooh, the beautiful web.

I've seen it, and it is beautiful!

</comment><comment><USER13> So, Webkit reinvents DirectAnimation and DXImageTransform?</comment>


Scientists confirm that parts of earliest genetic material may have come from the stars - <AUTHOR> http://www.thinkgene.com/scientists-confirm-that-parts-of-earliest-genetic-material-may-have-come-from-the-stars/

<comment><USER2> Off topic, but this story was added a day ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=216861>

Usually HN filters out repeats, but not this time. Very strange and interesting.

<comment><USER3> Yup, but on a different site; it's a press release. I find funny that in my submission people were complaining that I removed the 'may' part of the title; in this one, people are complaining of the opposite ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Is anyone else bothered by the use of "confirm" and "may" in the same sentence? If it's confirmed, it _is_ , not _may be_ , right?

<comment><AUTHOR> _Personally_ , yes. But this is standard scientific nomenclature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> We are aliens?</comment>


50 Things Every Startup Should Know - <AUTHOR> http://davidcummings.org/2010/09/05/50-things-every-startup-should-know/

<comment><USER2> "Just do it"? Stop it. Please.</comment>


Mini-Deadmau5 costume video...hilarious - <AUTHOR>

http://vimeo.com/16520938 <comment><USER2> And the award for best dad goes to...

<comment><USER2> do you think the kid liked Deadmau5's costume or idolized his music? With kids these days hitting puberty earlier and earlier you never know...</comment></comment>


How would you improve Hacker News? - <AUTHOR> http://branch.com/b/how-would-you-improve-hacker-news <comment><USER3> Decide once and for all whether you think this is, or want this to be, a single community.

If not, then allow users to have different "front pages" according to their interests.

If so, then define clearly the policies and police them properly.

HN is currently sinking under a morass of links trying to reflect the ever widening spread of interests of an undifferentiated mass of users. Any given individual will find it harder and harder to find links that match their interests, and the site will become more and more bland, culminating in a race to the bottom.

Retaining the level of politeness is a noble aim, but in the end, strongly technical people will find nothing of value here and will leave.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's almost impossible to get some self-balancing system of karma incentives to work out exactly right. But we don't _need_ to do that. There are lots of smart, thoughtful humans here who will work for free or cheap in good faith to keep things right. Why do we refuse to enlist their service?

Basically, just straight up steal the Metafilter model of non-shitty content.

\- Five bucks for an account. Maybe ten.

\- Tell the mods to actually moderate discussion _(instead of spending their time changing good post titles to terrible post titles.)_ If there aren't enough mods, then ask for more. There needs to be someone keeping discussion on-topic and civil.

\- Self-links are OK only if they are really good. If someone sits around posting every post on their blog to HN (or having their buddy do it) ban them. We need less borderline-spam content on the "New" page.

\- Is this supposed to be "Hacker News" or "News"? If the former, actually enforce it. Kill flamebait posts, political posts, recent dupe posts, and non- tech/startup-related posts on sight. If someone does nothing but post crappy, off-topic articles, ban them.

How do you prevent the abuse and evasion of all these vague rules? Easy. You retain good moderators with community transparency of moderator decisions to keep them honest. It works.

<comment><USER5> "Self-links are OK only if they are really good. If someone sits around posting every post on their blog to HN (or having their buddy do it) "

Along those lines I'm wondering why a few words by the OP on this subject simply asking a question and offering nothing more deserves to be on the front page.

The OP is Josh Miller (by handle) who works at branch.com where the simplistic post appears.

This essentially appears to be publicity for branch.com.

<comment><USER6> I think you're right about the publicity thing and I'm torn as to whether it's okay or not. On the one hand we're all here to support each other in building things and all that plus this really was a good way to show the HN crowd how Branch is used/useful which I know would appeal to a lot of us. There's no doubt having a guy from Branch post a Branch here is a great way to get people using it and talking about it. But then again it also feels a bit sneaky and just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If we give him the benefit of the doubt we can assume that because he's involved with Branch he uses it and also wanted to pose a question to HN so in the end his use of Branch would seem just this side of innocent. If we don't give him the benefit of the doubt then I'm not sure it was right. I do give the benefit of the doubt though, personally.

As to whether it belongs on the front page... Well technically the front page is a reflection of this community. If its on the front page then it belongs there because it was voted onto it. You don't have to look any further than the front page to tell how HN is changing for better or worse. But I do know what you mean when you say "deserves" and yeah, I'm right there with you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The problem I have with HN at the moment has nothing to do with what is on the front page but everything to do with the tone of some of the comments - <USER2> has, as far as I can see, a rise in quite openly hostile and blatantly _rude_ responses which I really don't remember seeing in the past.

NB One thing to note is that I'm _not_ talking about sw007's experiences but comments containing lines like:

"So slow clap for writing some useless crap. Sorry for the vitriol, but this shit is just dumb."

</comment><comment><USER8> unlike most people I think that HN is pretty great. Sure the site has some problems with being overly basic and not having anything that helps foster/grow good discussion[1] but overall it's good. The problem HN has is just like every other social site: people. People change; everyone is different. HN is shaped by the people here and as they evolve so does the site. What HN needs is:

1\. Proper guidelines about what is and what isn't appropriate here. Types of content, subject matters and how to approach commenting. Systems to support how much HN is growing, (eg: subreddit style system for show hn, ask hn, jobs, new content types as they arise, like recently the blog posts responding to another HN blog post)

2\. Active and transparent moderation. Submissions that don't meet the guidelines should be removed, as should comments, but it should be done transparently so that the community can see what is and what isn't acceptable. If a comment doesn't provide value to a thread it should be removed and if someone is consistently posting poor quality comments or comments that don't fit with the guidelines they should be removed.

HN is becoming diluted, but with a proper structure that is well enforced the site will be able to handle it. It's hard to force a social site to remain the same forever, but it's possible and in the case of HN I think it would be the right choice.

The most important thing to remember: you can't solve people problems with programming.

[1] To address this problem I would have a reddit style notifications system and the ability to subscribe to favourite users.

</comment><comment><USER9> OK, I'll bite: how about a system where down-votes can be optionally associated with descriptive tags like "dismissive", "mean", "irrelevant", "false", or "disagree". The tag counts are hidden from everyone except the comment's author.

</comment><comment><USER6> As much as we all know HN has lost enough of its luster that it's worth mentioning, I really do think at this point, unfortunately, the damage is done and there is no going back. HN is old enough an large enough now that for a while it'll still be awesome and beloved by many but soon enough it'll go one of two ways: it'll either die, become lame, and it's only inhabitants will be those it sought to keep away for so long or it'll continue to be high quality but become more like StackOverflow or certain subreddits - having great discussions and people but with everyone who knew HN it's prime knowing that it doesn't hold a candle to what it once was.

That's the thing about subcultures which I think HN most definitely is in that it is supposed to attract the most intelligent, entrepreneurial, techiest people. When it's new it's great because it makes you feel like you're part of not just a club but an elite club. Inevitably others who find out about your club want to join because they feel they deserve to be part of the elite club. Oh yes, they have all the makings of a genius and need to be part of it. This kind of self selection sucks and what's happening to HN happens to everything on the web that can be considered cool. RIP HN. We can bury its remains in the same plot as MySpace, Digg, and soon enough Facebook.

Although I would've hated it when I created my original account, I wonder if having an invite process would've helped like Dribbble and Forrst have.

</comment><comment><USER10> 1.Making the front page should be based on a black box score comprised of upvotes and comments. This would avoid the piling on effect.

2.Throttle user's ability to submit content based on their karma score. Users should participate and add meaningful comments in order to be able to submit content. HN is more than an SEO best practice.

3\. If its not your content, you don't deserve the karma. Users should be rewarded for submitting their own content (URLs would need to be added to profiles). I think HN overcompensates content submission from a karma perspective.

</comment><comment><USER11> I don't think there's a technical way. I think the problem is (mostly) social / cultural, and I wrote about it here: [http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/comment-when-you- ha...](http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/comment-when-you-have- something-to-say/) .

</comment><comment><USER12> 3 things would improve hacker news:

Better dedup

Report suspected PR (the Atlantic, for one, is hitting HN big now that reddit banned them)

Removing submission abilities from the newest of users, and of users who get flagged above a certain amount.

</comment><comment><USER13> Stories should be able to be tagged using an arbitrary set of tags similar to stack overflow. Possibly only people with a certain karma should be able to tag stories. Then let people filter stories by the tags it has. This would alleviate the concern of "too many YC posts" because they can be all tagged 'YC' and I can filter those out.

<comment><USER3> I refer my learned colleague to the following ancient poll and discussion:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2367949>

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> More startup focus, less general cool hacker stuff.

I've haven't been here as long as others, but I've definitely noticed the signal to noise ratio respective to startup threads changing.

If it could be tagged and have both, it would be nice. Such features might border on the beauty and simplicity of this site, though.

</comment><comment><USER15> How about we improve this post by making it "Ask HN:" :) Not sure why this is linking to branch

</comment><comment><USER16> If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

<comment><USER3> You really think it "aint broke"?

<comment><USER17> I agree with this. Hating on HN is the new meme, but it still is an excellent community IMHO.

My main gripe with HN is the influx of snarky/obstinate people. I've come to expect a certain feeling of frustration/resignation after posting a comment. "Great, soon I will have to read 3 snarky comments nitpicking over my wording and enumerating every possible objection to my argument, no matter how far- fetched."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Make viewing points optional. If I want to see them, let me see them. If I don't, don't. Points viewable only by logged in users, perhaps.

</comment><comment><USER19> Any reason why this discussion should not be held inside of hacker news instead of on a third party website?

<comment><USER3> Yes.

There are several recent items about this question here on HN, the threads are long, the same points made over and over again, very little insight, and nothing will happen.

More, threads about HN have a tendency to disappear without trace, because meta is usually frowned upon. There are a few exceptions, but if you want to go all meta, it's better to do it somewhere else and have a semblance of control.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Have a private message system which mods can use to send warnings and such to obnoxious users.

</comment><comment><USER20> My mind often wanders over a 'laundry list' of possible interface innovations to improve social news site interactions. A few of the items:

(1) _2-dimensional comment rating_. The 1-dimensional upvote/downvote conflates 'advances the discussion' and 'agree': there's no simple way to register, "good comment but I disagree" (other than another written comment). This makes some simple disagreements earn downvotes, and because downvotes have a connotation of censure (and even censorship as the comment descends in visibility), increases negative/adversarial feelings. Hiding the net comment scores has helped a bit (with other costs), but adding a 2nd-dimension -- a little compass-rose -- to ratings would let up/down be "worthwhile/unworthy" while left-right could be "agree/disagree". And, the separate agree/disagree counts could be shown, the give a sense of magnitudes rather than just net differences. My theory is that by providing an outlet for non-suppressive disagreement, fewer full replies would be necessary. Everyone could 'weigh in' without so much of a corrosive sense of status-retaliation/tribalism.

(2) _separate parallel stream per-item (or per-comment) for 'carping'/correction comments_. Often a headline sucks. Or an article or comment has blatant logical, factual, or grammatical errors. The community can't resist racing to point these out... and to some extent that's necessary, and can result in an headline/article/comment improvement for clarity/correctness. But it's also somewhat distracting and low-value, especially if the carps persist after a correction makes them redundant, or the carps become more prominent that substantive points. So give them their own tab. By convention, corrective/meta comments should go there, and moderators (or community votes) could also move misplaced comments there. My theory is this would retain their corrective value (especially for those most interested in that sort of precision) without clogging the 'main' thread with their bulk and hypercritical mindset.

(3) _community rewritten/ranked headlines_. Abusive headlines often waste readers time, create unnecessary discussion tangents based on misconceptions, and bias talk in a more adversarial direction. But corrections by moderators are inconsistent (and themselves often controversial). So maybe let the community propose alternate headlines, and vote on which is best. Only the top headline, presumably improved by group action, appears on the summary list views... the alternative proposals on the detail page.

(4) _subheads (aka 'dek' or blurb/tease)_. Allow a second-line in submissions for display in list/summary views, as is common in many journalistic presentations. More context can help save time/attention. Because writing these can be as challenging (and subject to the same abuses as headlines), if the headlines can be community-corrected per the above, the subheads should as well.

(5) _event/topic clustering (a la Techmeme)_. Interleaving 10 stories about some attention-grabbing new release or controversy with 20 stories about other things heightens a false sense of novelty/urgency but doesn't lead to more coherent evaluation/discussion. All the stores about "Company X releases Y" (and similar) could be grouped as a contiguous block. The block might rise/fall on total votes to all stories; the relative prominence of the stories within the block could be based on their individual votes. They'd have one comment thread, avoiding redundant comments (and comments like, "as I mentioned in the other thread"). The groupings could be moderator-controlled, algorithmically-controlled, or even community-influenced.

(6) _ignore 'sunk time' in ratings decay_. Consider story A, submitted at an inopportune time, say time 0. It starts with one vote. Over the next 6 hours, 4 more votes/resubmissions trickle in. It never hits the front-page and quickly leaves the 'new. Now, at hour 6, elsewhere on the net, story A gets more attention. It's wrapped/aggregated as story B, which is also submitted. In the next 15 minutes, say that A gets another 25 upvotes, while B gets 20 upvotes. I have the strong impression that B will shoot up to the front page -- 20 votes in 15 minutes! - while A will still languish in obscurity -- merely 30 votes over 6 hours. And yet, for the overlapping, recent 15 minute period, story A got more votes. I suggest it ought not be penalized for the prior hours it spent in the doldrums, before it really 'broke' more widely. The right decay function (looking back from now rather than forward from submission time) could make this work. My theory is that removing this extreme recency bias would mean some slow-building stories, from more foundational sources, would get better treatment than well-timed later sensationalizing/oversimplifying rewrites.

</comment><comment><USER21> The submitted article (blog post) has an interesting factual claim with which I disagree, but that leads to a technical suggestion that I find intriguing.

"I'll start: for me, the main problem with HN is that it's extremely hard for new links to reach the front page, or even get more than one or two upvotes."

I disagree that it's extremely hard for new links to reach the front page. Most newly submitted links don't deserve to get to the front page, and too many of the links that reach the front page are still not the best links that were submitted on the same day. (For the record, each time I visit the front page, which is several times a day if I am interspersing breaks into working in my home office, as I am right now, I then go to the new page. So I am scanning the new page often to look for good new links to upvote. I upvote them if I see them. Some of them make it to the front page, but many do not. Many worse links receive no upvotes at all, not from me and not from anyone else, but some worse links, for example links with linkbait titles from low- quality sources, nonetheless make it to the front page.) Every link has some shot at making it to the front page. The front page will best reflect community consensus about what belongs on the front page if all experienced users who have reviewed the site guidelines

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

(which were recently updated) take turns scanning the new page from time to time to look for the good stuff.

While I disagree with what the main problem identified above is, the suggestion in the submitted blog post about what to do about it is not half bad:

"One way to solve this might be to reward people who "discover" promising new links, i.e. give them their first couple upvotes. For example, if you're one of the first 5 people to upvote a post that eventually goes on to earn more than 20 upvotes, you get extra karma."

What this helps deal with is the first-past-the-post problem in submitting articles, which is that some people are all too aware that they get NIL karma from a submission unless they are the very first to submit that link, so they use RSS feeds and scan titles (without fully reading articles) to decide what to submit. That often results in submission of inferior articles and especially it results in submission of noncanonical URLs that mess up the operation of HN's duplicate detector software. So I would not be against implementing this idea, which would put the community on notice that everyone can take time to READ articles before deciding what to submit, and indeed everyone has something to gain from promoting a good article from the new page to the front page.

On the other hand, if I were directly answering the question "How would you improve Hacker News?" with a focus on software and interface tweaks, I would put a prominent link to the site guidelines, or perhaps even a snippet of key guidelines in every submission form and every comment form, and I would implement pg's idea and my follow-up to that

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4397542>

of looking at how users use their comment upvotes as a signal of which users are most determined to uphold the community guidelines here, adjusting their voting influence accordingly. In general, I think that most good stuff submitted to HN, either as article submissions or as comments posted to other people's submissions, gets too few upvotes. Look for good stuff and upvote it early and often is my approach to improving the community.

<comment><USER5> "which is that some people are all too aware that they get NIL karma from a submission unless they are the very first to submit that link"

As a side note to this if you submit a link that has already been submitted you bump up the karma on that by one point. So even if you submit a link first (by the method you describe) and it doesn't make it to the front page or get "organic" upvotes the mere fact that someone else has the same idea, but was a minute late, gives you an extra karma point.

Added: So the conclusion is that if you are trying to get karma it pays to spend time adding the obvious suspects rather than the outliers (say a story from the NYT or Techcrunch that others will do the same.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I would disclose who is upvoting/downvoting whose comments. There are cliques on every social news site. Some of those cliques are genuine communities of technology enthusiasts, but others are like little armies of trolls which have been set up by aggresive PR firms and marketing departments of large tech companies. I have never on any social news site seen a system that gives you insight into whether upvoting/downvoting is honest-grassroots or organized by some PR firm for the benefit of some corporate entity.</comment>


I built a $18,000/month content writing productized service - <AUTHOR> https://productizedstartups.com/growing-an-18000-month-content-productized-service/ <comment><USER2> Link to the product being spoken about: [https://www.scribly.io/](https://www.scribly.io/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Only 20 clients? Does that seem low to anybody else?

<comment><AUTHOR> Her packages are between $500 to $3500/month so she got to that MRR only with a handful of customers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm missing something. Are they selling blog posts? What's the content source?

<comment><USER5> Yeah, like, I know "productized content marketing service" must mean something to someone, but every time I try to parse it, it just seems like a buzzword Ouroboros, endlessly devouring its own tail.

<comment><USER4> That's exactly what I experienced trying to figure it out!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> [deleted]

<comment><AUTHOR> I reached out individually to every single productized service entrepreneur featured in those interviews and made sure they go in-depth with their answers. Not sure how that qualifies as webspam?

<comment><USER7> I think GP meant the product itself is a webspam factory, not your interview.

Since we don't see the actual product, we don't know if it's worthwhile or low-value filler content.</comment></comment></comment>


Perl Command-Line Arguments - <AUTHOR> https://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/PERL/node161.html

<comment><AUTHOR> My favorite, that I didn't even know about until today:

      -x
         This option will let you extract a Perl script from the middle
         of a file. This feature comes in handy when someone has sent
         you a script via e-mail. Perl will scan the input file looking
         for a #! line that contains the word perl. When it is found,
         it will execute the script until the __END__ token is found.
         If a directory name is specified after the -x option, Perl
         will switch to that directory before executing the script.</comment>


Apple Slashes iPhone Production, Says Chip Analyst - <AUTHOR> http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/11/apple-slashes-iphone-production-says-chip-analyst-aapl-

<comment><USER2> the key here is 'say chip analyst'... but what about the rest of the component makers?

There seems to have been a small bit of buzz in chip circles that Apple is looking to become a chip producer (or at least designer), and that could be reflected here.

</comment><comment><USER3> I would buy one if the offer from T-Mobile Germany was better. But prices for mobile internet are falling quickly, and in 24 months I would definitely feel like a fool if I was still paying the T-Mobile rates.

Come on, Apple, unlock it already.</comment>


For Halloween, you can tweet an electric shock to one of the Si team - <AUTHOR> http://sidigital.co/halloween <comment><USER2> Congratulations to the team on marketing idea and technical implementation. It's really cool and fun.

On the other side, I don't like the kind of message you're trying to get across which is in a nutshell: "these are our monkey engineers, have fun with them". It's a little bit too self-deprecating and demeaning. I get that it's made in fun, but it buzzed me the wrong way.

<comment><USER3> Aw man we are pretty much all devs here, didn't mean it to come across like that :(

<comment><USER2> Hey, I like the idea from marketing and tech side, kudos on that :)

But I said what I said because I work in the agency and in my opinion we have created an atmosphere that is not working towards our advantage.

* Designers are expected to present their work in advance and the best team will win

* Developers are often considered as coders only and their input is not valued, even after they have solved an impossible taks

This kind of self-deprecating humor does not help and I'm pretty sure you would not see managers and sales people putting themselves in this situation, because it will not help in their jobs.

<comment><USER3> Sorry to hear about your work situation but I can assure it is not like that here.

Our own MD is hooked up too, as is the designer. We don't have that divide here everyone's opinion is as important as the next.

<comment><USER2> It's not my situation, but I've seen it too many times and I cringe whenever I see any action that _could_ be turned against engineers. Even if I completely misunderstand the situation and make a fuss out of it when it's not needed :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I have often wished for this exact feature when using software of poor quality. E.g. years ago when I still used Microsoft Windows, I often had the thought that it would be appropriate if I could press a button to buzz the developers responsible for a particular part of the system. Very happy to see that a similar idea has been implemented, and I hope it catches on. =)

<comment><USER5> I believe there is a Microsoft April Fools video with this exact theme.

<comment><USER6> Windows WSYP Project -- [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-c0YSsF_O0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-c0YSsF_O0)

Such a good video... even this many years later.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Seriously? Giving people electric shocks for fun? I don't even wanna try that...

<comment><USER8> There are toys and games that give people mild electric shocks. Did you never grab an electric fence when you were a kid?

<comment><USER7> I did, but it was all but comfortable.

<comment><USER8> I grabbed a few sheep fences, and they weren't pleasant but not horrible. I grabbed a few cow fences, and they were _not fun_.

I never made the mistake of peeing on one.

<comment><USER9> the further out in the fields the less the fence hurts, we would get a couple city cousins to grab them way out in the field, see they were safe. Then back closer to where the line started, just tell them to go pee on the corner fence post.... its safe...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think your server is misconfigured. I'm seeing php code.

</comment><comment><USER11> These are the ideas that make you truly appreciate what you do and could achieve with our skills! Great work guys and A+ for creativity! :)

</comment><comment><USER12> According to the out of office thing, at 8:10 AM EDT these guys have lunch, and a 4 hour and 50 minute one at that. I wonder when they have breakfast.

<comment><USER3> Haha it's definitely lunch here. But our lunch is being spent spinning up more servers and load balancers! Traffic has been a little crazy...

<comment><USER12> Have you guys had a problem with people scripting tweets? I know there are some command line twitter clients like TTYter.

<comment><USER3> We expected abuse from the beginning so we built in a 30minute cooldown on accounts. Hopefully someone doesn't have an army of accounts out there though!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Funny and sadomasochistic, whats not to love? Maybe you should pretend a heart attack or something like that so you can scare the shocker back

</comment><comment><USER14> Is today April Fools or Halloween?

</comment><comment><USER15> This is marketing spam and doesn't belong on HN.

<comment><USER3> I didn't submit this link but I'm from this agency. Fair enough if you think it is, but we thought you might be interested in the tech at the bottom and the way we hacked some toy shock lighters to produce this!

<comment><USER16> Even if we leave the tech aside, this is a good example of PR hacking, which I think is pretty relevant to a lot of people here. Congratulations to you and your team for spotting an opportunity and exploiting it.

edit : typo

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Sigh. A 2005 parody of new-media bro idiocy, come to life: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06AS8SiY3rw#t=54](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06AS8SiY3rw#t=54)

</comment><comment><USER18> Seems like nobody has read up on Halloween for a while. The Wikipedia page is a good place to start. I don't think there is an event on the calendar that is so far lost-the-plot as Halloween. Nobody knows the slightest thing about the origins of it and this stunt is just a million miles away.

<comment><USER19> What particular interpretation and stopping point in history do you think is probably the correct one?

From what I see people have a party, which harkens back to the whole harvest festival thing.</comment></comment>


List of people who disappeared mysteriously - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_disappeared_mysteriously

<comment><USER2> Should this be a list of _famous_ people who disappeared mysteriously?

I know 2 people from my college that have disappeared mysteriously, and they're not on this list.</comment>