Show HN: NomadList – The best cities to live and work remotely in - <AUTHOR> http://nomadlist.io/?hn <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk :)

Firstly, it's crowdsourced from this spreadsheet [http://nomadlist.io/edit/](http://nomadlist.io/edit/) so it might not be 100% accurate.

Secondly, NomadCost != cost of living. NomadCost is based on short-term staying in a hostel, hotel or apartment in the center, working in a coworking space and having a basic meal three times a day. That's the average digital nomad's lifestyle. They move around every few months, so they can't rent long- term. So NomadCost will be way more expensive than cost of living for a resident.

I'd like to monetize this by selling city specific nomad guides on how to set up in each place and letting people find jobs remotely. Hope this helps! I think this is the future of work, so I'm very happy to help push this.

P.S. this is part of my goal to launch 12 startups in 12 months (see [http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months](http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months))

<comment><USER4> > P.S. this is part of my goal to launch 12 startups in 12 months (see > [http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months](http://levels.io/12-startups-12-months))

Not to be mean, but is this one really a startup? What's the business model?

<comment><USER5> I love what Pieter's doing! There may not be a business model at the moment, but getting these products out of the door is a first step. After 12 months, he'll have a good idea of which ideas work, which don't, and what to pursue next. Good luck!

<comment><USER4> Well I mean this product as it currently stands will give him an idea about traffic to a crowdsourced comparison site and little else. What'll be the business, putting on ads or allowing cities to pay to become "featured" nomad hubs?

You can say that lessons learned from launching 12 sites will help pivot into one that works as a business, but that's one company with 12 products, not 12 companies.

<comment><USER6> > _Well I mean this product as it currently stands will give him an idea about > traffic to a crowdsourced comparison site and little else. What 'll be the > business, putting on ads or allowing cities to pay to become "featured" > nomad hubs?_

For one, ads are not a bad idea. Startups are not just for $5 billion buyouts -- they can also be $500/month side projets.

Second, he already said he has an idea about selling guides for how to setup business in each of those places.

<comment><USER7> monetising a website by putting ads or affiliate links on it does not qualify as a "startup" in my opinion. It bugs me how the hacker community throws the word startup around willy nilly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Great concept. One feature request: Better calculations for cities with Bi- modal price distributions.

Certain cities have a extremely bi-modal distributions of pricing. I.e. they can support both the "broke artist" lifestyle, and the "upper middle class" lifestyle. Two separate cost distributions. If you try to take the mean or median of these cities, you'll end up either arbitrarily landing on one of the distributions, or a nonsense number in the middle.

A good example is Manhattan. For example, pizza can actually be cheaper in Manhattan than Sofia. In Manhattan, the broke artist lifestyle of living with multiple roommates who barely know each other, all sharing a rent controlled apartment for a few hundred dollars a month is more socially acceptable and much more common. Just taking prices from the realtor-controlled apartment websites is a poor reflection of reality. Almost no one except the richer consultants bothers with a full-time coworking desk in either city. In this case, Manhattan can actually cost less than Sofia.

So, I think the "broke artist" price distributions would better reflect what a remote working nomad would be looking for, instead of the "upper middle class" prices.

<comment><USER9> May I ask where do you recommend in Sofia for cheap pizza?

<comment><USER10> most street corners in sofia have a slice for ~ 1$ (1.2lv up to 2 lv) i've heard friends recommend the pizza around NDK & Vitosha buss stop but i haven't tried it personally

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> You need to include visa situation, because Bangkok is 3rd, but unless you're planning to start a Thailand-based business via the BOI, you're working there illegally if you don't have a work permit, and they're cracking down on all sorts of visa irregularities at the moment.

<comment><USER12> Assuming that you're working remotely for clients who are outside of Thailand, is this actually a problem?

I've worked from various places while traveling, and never worried about this, though obviously it would be an issue if you wanted to pick up _local_ clients.

<comment><USER11> It is _absolutely_ a problem if you're working remotely for clients who are outside Thailand.

Will you get caught? Probably not.

Will you get caught if you keep showing up at co-working spaces now the government is cracking down on visas? Are you feeling lucky?

<comment><USER12> Is there a time constraint?

E.g., before I had kids I spent a few months traveling from Western Europe down to Turkey, working along the way -- probably in about 10 different countries; countries don't reasonable expect you to file taxes if you happen to do some remote work in them for a week, do they?

Obviously this will vary per-country, but I'm curious if you know how it would play out in Thailand, at least, if you did everything by the book.

<comment><USER11> Tax and work permit are different. In Thailand you need to be there more than half the year before you need to declare income.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't know if I'm the first one to say this, but I have discovered that Sebastapol, CA, which is an 1.5 hours north of San Francisco, has fiber internet, and a significantly lower cost of living. Its also in a fairly beautiful and wooded part of Northern CA. O' Reilly Associates is based there.

I'm surprised it isn't more jam packed with start ups.

Oh yeah ... there is nothing to do there. So you will have to just admire nature and work. And then commute to SF for your meetings.

If this explodes in popularity, I hope someone will credit me for leaking the secret.

<comment><USER14> Real estate prices in Sebastapol are still 3+ times higher than in most of the United States.

<comment><USER13> You are right. It probably only seems reasonable to my eyes because I live in San Francisco.

Perhaps Kansas City, with its Google Fiber and relatively mild climate, is a better option overall.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> You need way more data points. I would add crime statistics to this for example or probability of getting arrested and beaten by the local police, and the average cost of bribing officials/administrative workers.

For example, Sofia is #5, but, having lived there for a few years, it is absolutely not the #5 best choice, by far. That said, it's not a _bad_ choice, it works for Telerik after all.

<comment><USER16> "probability of getting arrested and beaten by the local police, and the average cost of bribing officials/administrative workers" \- I don't know where this is coming from. I've lived in Sofia for 6 years, never been arrested or beaten or bribed anyone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> As a Tunisian I feel obliged to put my 2 cents.

The cost of life is pretty cheap around here ($500/month is the average salary for a teacher, the minimum income is around $200/m), and its getting cheaper with the decline of the tunisian dinar Vs $ & €

I live near the cities of Sousse & Monastir, and i can share few thoughts:

\- rent for a decent apartement is about $300/m in the city and less than $200 outside

\- food is relatively cheap around here, with a wide variety of fresh fish

\- Monastir is a beatiful city, good climate, excellent beaches, the travel to the aeroport cost less than15 min and 50 cent , with weekly/biweekly flights to major european cities.

\- Tunisia is actually very safe and stable, major touristic destinations(hammamat, sousse, monastir, djerba (which btw is a very decent destination) are given more attention by the Interior minister.

\- internet quality is not on par with the 1st world, 8Mb cost around $40/ m

\- french is widely spoken, english is understood especially by youth

\- wikitravel have some good ( and accurate) articles about tunisia & tunisian cities

<comment><USER18> Would you say that Tunisia is safer than Morocco? I visited Morocco a few years back and loved it; I wanted to extend my trip to Tunisia, but I was told by a few people that I wouldn't be as safe there as the larger cities aren't as focused on tourism as, say, Marakesch, Tangier, etc.

<comment><USER17> I dont see any reason why you wouldnt be safe. USA lifted the travel alert for Tunisia 2014. More than 6 million tourist entered Tunisia in 2013 (compared to 10M in morroco), the number is expected to be higher in 2014.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Ho Chi Minh is almost twice as expensive as Hanoi? I didn't make it to Hanoi, but everyone told me it was the more expensive of the two. HCM is really cheap everywhere you go if you just stay out of the financial sector.

Keep in mind AirBNB doesn't seem to get sites below the $15 range, and a lot of hotels that are in this range don't list on internet exchanges either. For example in Ho Chi Minh there's a few decent airconditioned hotels next to Bui Vien for $10 a night but you wont find them online. Also in Southeast Asia I've found you can rent most everywhere for 30 days at a time, which in my mind is short term when I consider all the minimum 12 month leases I had to get in the US.

Good job though, I like that you're scraping other sites. This should be good to use in conjunction with Numbeo, which has its own biases.

<comment><USER20> It's also very easy to find a room to rent for a month for $300 or less in HCMC, even right in the center of District 1. I'm doing just that right now, in fact, and have a serviced room in a very good location. It's been my experience that Hanoi is generally more expensive in just about every respect but I haven't spent as much time there.

Personally if I'm going to put up with the hassles of living as a nomad I want to reap more of the benefits so I prefer to stay in cleaner, quieter beach towns and enjoy the slower pace of life but some people like city life I guess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm curious where the data comes from? I see that it's a spreadsheet but how is it verified?

For example, I don't know what the _average_ price of a co-working space is in Tokyo but I do know that "The Terminal" in Harajuku is only $150 a month. It's open from 11am to 11pm and includes free drinks (soda, coffee, tea).

Co-ba, has more than one location, the one in Shibuya is $160 a month and is open 24 hours.

The Open Source Cafe in Shimokitazawa is tiny but also similarly priced as is one I visited in Koenji (sorry, I forgot the name).

So, I'm curious where that $444 a month estimate comes from.

Rent is also iffy. It currently says $70 a day but rent varies widely depending on your standards and how far out of the center you're willing to live. I know people that have had a large 3bd apt for $1200 a month only 2 stops out various main lines on the express. (which might be like 12 local stops). Whereas downtown it might be $1200 for a studio but then again it depends on the quality. I know guys living in Nishi-Azabu for $600 a month.

<comment><USER22> Hey there! I'm moving to Tokyo in September (from Australia) and I'm after any tips that I can get :)

Mind if I comment hi-jack and ask if you know of any particularly good areas that I should be looking to rent in? I'll be working close to Shinjuku station.

Also, I will be working a day-job, but I hope to work on some side-projects too. Where is a good quiet place to go and work?

Co-ba at $160/month is tempting, but I'm not sure that I'll be there often enough to justify that cost. I was hoping that I'd be able to find cafes that would fit the bill.

Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> As a nomad who wouldn't mind settling down, I'm actually more interested in a place where I can register my company with prospects of becoming full-fledged citizen in the future, preferably in somewhat colder regions of the planet. I'm not entirely happy with my current passport, and working out of off-shores doesn't do much good for that.

<comment><USER24> Derek Sivers (founder of CDBaby) created an amazing project that caters to these needs: [https://woodegg.com/](https://woodegg.com/)

<comment><USER4> Not exactly colder regions of the planet, that...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Anyone listen to the "Travel Like A Boss" podcast? It's done by a guy living in Chang Mai Thailand. He mainly interviews dropship entrepreneurs. It's crazy because they are making $1500/month running these crappy little niche dropshipping stores but living like someone making $10000/month or more in San Francisco. They have maid service, live in full service buildings with rooftop pools, eat out all the time. It's crazy how cheap things are over there.

<comment><USER26> > It's crazy because they are making $1500/month running these crappy little > niche dropshipping stores but living like someone making $10000/month or > more in San Francisco.

Sounds like they're living better than people making $10,000/month in SF.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Pleased to find my city - Bucharest - at the top of bandwidth and pretty decent with regard to living cost, but 1312 EUR/month is absurd. I'd estimate the living cost to $250 rent, $200 food, $20 internet and $20 mobile voice+data = about $500/month. That is, if you rent a flat, buy food at supermarkets, not if you spend all day in coffee shops and eat only at restaurants.

<comment> anton-107 Is this rent price for an apartment in the center that you can find within one week? Most european cities' centers are significantly more expensive than suburbs/country side.

$250 is suspiciously cheap

<comment><USER28> If you want to live in the city center (i.e. 1km radius), then an apartment will probably cost a bit more. But I'd say that withing a 3-5km radius $250 is normal for longer term rent and probably $300-320 for something super quick.

But most of the people renting don't sign any contracts anyway so you can just say that you'll stay for 1 year and pack your bags after 1-2-3 months, or as long as you paid the deposit for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> What if you prefer colder climates? Not sure why the city should be penalized for it. High temperatures make me less productive.

<comment><USER30> Not to mention some people are 'digital nomads' in order to explicitly pursue other things in life like snow sports, mountaineering, etc., which tend to be found in colder climates.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Hey guys I'm also building a similar service to this site, but more focused on the qualitative than the quantitative:

[http://www.istorical.com](http://www.istorical.com)

</comment><comment><USER32> Ok. The idea is great, but as other have also said, the figures seem way off. Just two examples:

Basel being cheaper than Berlin? I have a hard time believing that.

But:

Hong Kong being cheaper than Leipzig? That just can't be true.

<comment><USER33> The price for Hong Kong looks weird, NomadCost per month in HK is roughly 350 EUR lower than the monthly rental costs. This is probably due to the very low listed price of the hostel and budget hotel rooms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I get that this is made for short-term stays, and being truly nomadic. But I think many of us who work remotely do it to allow us to leave the cities. Building permanent roots in a small town is way cheaper and simpler, but that isn't really covered here.

Also, one's own goals and personality have a lot more to do with the "best" place to work from than the crunchable data does.

So I like the idea of compiling a list of great places to work remotely, but I'm not sure this particular execution of that idea has a ton of value for me.

<comment><USER20> I'm a smaller city guy myself. Vietnam has a number of beach towns with very good quality of life and low living costs. It does help a lot to learn a bit of the language though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I like the concept for getting some new ideas, but it needs significantly more information to be useful downstream. Having been nomading around for the past year, there are things that are important to me (accomodation, gym, coworking, good food) that are made easier/harder by various factors (proximity to each other, cost, contract length, quality, etc.). There's no tool for that yet (albeit excellent blog posts, not everything has to be made into an app I guess).

</comment><comment><USER36> Love this! But I'm surprised not to see main Spanish cities on here. I took a short trip to Seville and was amazed how cheap everything was (I live in London).

There was an abundance of Airbnb accommodation, eating out was cheap and you could get a bucket of beers for 5 euros in many places. About the same as a pint in London.

I'd make this list a little more interactive, perhaps have a forum/comments behind each city. Could become a really useful resource.

</comment><comment><USER37> Those european rent prices seem like a complete fantasy in some cases. Sure you get all kinds of outliers in every city but rents in Paris, Dublin and Berlin are certainly not the same. Paris is twice as expensive as Berlin, and Dublin is somewhere in the middle.

This site has much more realistic numbers: [http://www.numbeo.com/common/](http://www.numbeo.com/common/)

</comment><comment><USER38> I find it confusing that 1°C is displayed in red, but 31°C is displayed in green (instead of bold red).

The temperature should be checked against an upper limit.

<comment><AUTHOR> I previously had it opposite, but I wanted to show that green was good and red was bed, also in terms of internet speed etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I live in Chiang Mai, which is listed #1 on the list - and yeah I'm here because I love it.

But the picture you included is the White Temple in Chiang Rai. It's not in Chiang Mai. Might as well put a picture of Chiang Mai there, particularly if it's on the #1 spot. Not like Chiang Mai doesn't have any temples, there's hundreds and hundreds of them ;)

</comment><comment><USER40> Milan?!

Yuck. Worst city in Italy: it's expensive, polluted, crowded, and has little of what makes Italy so nice in many other places.

Italians move there because it's the business capital of the country, and there are jobs and money. But if you can live anywhere with a decent connection... that's the last place I'd go.

<comment><USER41> That's about the general feeling Italians have about Milan (I'm Italian, I've been living there all my life), nevertheless they keep coming here :-)

If you can work and get your customers remotely you don't want to be in Milan, but be careful about bad ADSLs in rural areas, which unfortunately are the ones where you want to be. You might aim to one of the many medium sized cities that are pretty everywhere. Look for one close to an airport, an high speed train station, sea or mountains depending on your tastes.

By the way, Internet speed in Milan is 100 Mb/s download / 10 Mb/s upload if you have fiber, or something up to 20 Mb/s with ADSL. Fiber really give you those speeds, with ADSL it's up to your luck.

<comment><USER40> I live in Padova, and it's nice, although I think if someone isn't going to spend a long time in Italy, and wants "the Italian experience", I'd go with somewhere like Perugia, even if it's harder to get to. It is a beautiful area, things work pretty well compared to farther south, the people are friendly, and it's not too touristy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> You should also add "Visa" field. E.g. any american can live in Europe up to 3 months, but in Thailand it's just 1 m.

I lived in Bangkok for about a year, thought I love that city, now their visa policy got stupid, and I would't recommend to settle there for long period (>3 months).

</comment><comment><USER43> To those in this thread saying you need an appropriate working visa to work in these countries:

Have you ever worked for a company in Country A and been sent on a business trip to Country B? Most likely your company didn't need a Country B working visa for you, just for a business trip.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see how the digital nomad lifestyle is any different. If you're just spending short amounts of time in these countries, legally how is this any different from going on a business trip since your company and salary will be paid in the origin country.

I'm sure there's a cut off point, like once you go over a certain amount of time it becomes harder to justify your trip as a short term business trip... but what's that line?

<comment><USER44> You aren't a lawyer, and clearly don't have (much) practical experience as a foreign worker, and yet you still give out legal advice.

a) Some countries _do_ require a specific visa even just for a "business meeting". Often getting that visa will require documentation or an official letter from a company either in your home/resident country or the country you are visiting.

b) Some countries _do_ differentiate between a visit for "business" (such as meetings) and a visit for "work" (as in actually _doing_ something)

<comment><USER43> > You aren't a lawyer, and clearly don't have (much) practical experience as a > foreign worker, and yet you still give out legal advice.

Ah hate to pull this card, but I've been an expat now for almost 14 years :) worked in Japan and Singapore (legally, with correct working visa etc etc), and just for this last year I've been a nomad flitting from country to country.

You mention "some countries" \- sure some are stricter than others, but are any of the countries you're talking about on this list?

It would be _insane_ for a country in Asia (except the ones still developing) to have such requirements. It is entirely routine for folks from companies in (for example) Singapore, to travel regionally for business on an extremely frequent basis.

I normally frown upon making assumptions of people :) but since you assumed I didn't have much practical experience as a foreign worker, I'm going to also assume you haven't done much business in Southeast Asia.

<comment><USER44> The country I have specific knowledge of is Thailand, which expressly states visa-exemption entries are for tourism only, a business visa is required for business trips (e.g. meetings) and a work permit (which also requires a business visa) is required to work in the country legally. (There are different laws covering the many labourers from neighbouring countries)

Please keep in mind I didn't say that every businessman/woman GETS a business visa for meetings etc, I said thats what the law says they should do. Your comment was about the "difference legally" between a business trip and a foreign worker. Legally there is a difference between them, and legally neither should be doing it on a tourism visa exemption.

I apologise for the assumption, as it turns out we were both wrong - I have lived in Thailand coming up on 2 years. To work here legally I created a Thai company. I have clients back in Australia and in Singapore.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Taipei is my top choice. The healthcare is excellent (and free) if you are a Taiwan resident.

<comment><USER46> It is very inexpensive compared to the U.S., but it's not free.

<comment><USER47> I think it's like $10 a month? Plus all the services are super cheap. I went to visit my family there, and went to a dentist for a cavity filling. It was very clean and professional, as much as any dentist I've been to in the US. The cost was $6.

At those prices it feels pretty much free. You no longer view health expenses as this weird financial burden in your life; instead, it just financially feels like buying a burrito or fixing your bike.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Bucharest ~ $1800 is exaggerated, honestly, if you live alone $500 are more than enough.

<comment><USER49> I can say the same for Lisbon (€1368 on the list). I'm more of a resident here but I spend under €400/mo (<$530) and live just fine (my own rented apt, centrally located).

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> It misses Bangalore, India. You could live a good life for $750.00 a month. For an additional $35 a month, you can get a 60MBps internet connection. Weather is pretty pleasant throughout the year. You could sample quite an assortment of cuisines too. Meetups are fairly active as well. Negatives: Traffic is terrible, but I stay indoors most of the time. Vendors do not speak English, but the number of non-Indians is high and the one can speak in English in any mid-sized shop. Disclaimer: I am an Indian, but am not a native of Bangalore. I was initially resentful of having to stay in Bangalore, but of late have started liking the city.

<comment><USER51> There's a button to "Add your city"

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Anyone heard of Cluj, Romania? Probably not.

What if I told you it's the capital of Transylvania? Located 500 km from Budapest, Belgrade, or Bucharest plus direct flights all over Europe. 20 km from the western Carpathians (hence the lowest level of air pollution in Europe) and some of the fastest bandwidth speeds on the planet. Not sure what else you need for remote work.

Check out: [http://www.bestcityineurope.com/](http://www.bestcityineurope.com/) <USER2>
[http://ilovecluj.ro/2014/07/16-reasons-cluj-is-the-ideal- cit...](http://ilovecluj.ro/2014/07/16-reasons-cluj-is-the-ideal-city-for-a- new-start/)

</comment><comment><USER53> A lot of these cities are only good if you are a local, for example in Hong Kong it is almost impossible to get a working visa that allows you to work for a remote company. I image in Japan it would probably be even harder.

<comment><AUTHOR> Many nomads are actually registered with a Ltd in HK for tax purposes.

<comment><USER53> Being registered is one thing, getting an actual visa is quite difficult. (If you are applying for your own visa that is)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I've lived in Bangkok the last 7 months and I spend approximately half the stated sum.

I am by no chance saying that the sum is invalid, it is probably pretty damn accurate (from what I've heard elsewhere).

Just mentioning that it is not the minimum. Not even I am at the minimum because I have a /relatively/ expensive apartment. And I don't live on breadcrumbs or anything like that :)

EDIT: As the reply posted by OP saying

> NomadCost is based on short-term staying in a hostel, hotel or apartment in > the center, working in a coworking space and having a basic meal three times > a day.

(I am not really close to that actual lifestyle)

</comment><comment><USER55> Small bug:

I'm not able to switch the currency, it just shows pounds even though I selected Euro in the dropdown menu at the top ([http://nomadlist.io/?l=eu](http://nomadlist.io/?l=eu))

<comment><AUTHOR> Should be fixed now! I tried to make it static but that failed :)

<comment><USER55> That was quick. It's working as expected now!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Great idea, but I can't find any information about healthcare?

It might be great to live in Thailand where you have to spent just a little for living but what happens if we compare this with their healthcare system?

<comment><USER57> I was going to suggest the same feature: healthcare and more generally public services are a very important factor when deciding to settle somewhere. Too bad most of these websites seem to think cost of living is the #1 factor.

<comment><USER58> I was thinking the same at first, but when you think about, the defining feature of a digital nomad is that he moves from place to place and doesn't permanently settle somewhere, so I can see how this isn't quite as important as cost of living.

After all, if you don't like it in a place (or you're not happy with the public services) you can just up and leave.

Having said that, it'd still be nice and make the data inherently more useful to have additional data such as the quality of/access to healthcare (though I'm not sure how easy it is to quantify that) or crime rates.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> For working remotely, another factor which should be considered is time zone. It is very difficult to have a fruitful arrangement if you are always trying to scramble for times in the wee hours..

<comment><USER60> Great point that makes a big difference to people looking to work with US states. I can only imagine trying to find good internet at 2am for an issue if it's business hours in the US.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> Local main language should be included?

<comment><USER62> Or to be more practical for the anglo-centric HN audience, the percentage of population which can speak English.

<comment><USER61> well it's nice to know the lang.. mebbe ill take it or know it or have a cousin that speaks it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> This comment will probably get overlooked, but how do you get into the "digital nomad" lifestyle? Basically, what kind of work allows you operate 100% remotely? Thanks.

<comment><USER64> Anything where you just need a laptop & internet should work. Indie software development is one option. Back when shareware was the big thing there were a few nomads, Trygve Inda springs to mind and got a mention in a CNN article:

[http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138820/index.htm?postversion=2007080610)

Some folks do it with blogging (lots of bloggers do it funded by ads & e-book sales), mobile app development, web design & admin, content development, even some online consulting (bonus points if you're prepared to fly to meet clients).

If you're lucky you can even talk your employer into it. There are some enlightened ones who allow remote work. But being a 100% Digital Nomad is probably too extreme for an employment situation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Bucharest is way undervalued. The internet speed can easily be 1Gb/s for around 15$ I think, while the montly costs for living should be around 1000$ at most in my opionion.

<comment><USER28> Renting a decent 1 bedroom apartment is about 350 dollars. 1Gbps costs 20 dollars, and it includes TV subscription (I think it includes HBO too), a fixed phone line and a 3G SIM card and/or USB stick.

The cost of living is definitely less than 1000 dollars. After all the average salary in Bucharest is probably less than 1000 dollars per month, so we wouldn't be able to live here if it cost more, would we? :)

<comment><USER66> Bucharest confuses me. Walking around the city you see more luxury cars (mostly BMWs) per capita than almost any other European capital. But the median wage is 1000 Euros. None of the locals I've asked (friends, family, etc.) ever have a solid answer, so maybe the internet can help.

<comment><USER67> The cars are stolen. They've been brought in from more western parts of Europe.

<comment><USER28> Not all of them. I'd say that the majority are just second hand purchases.

Of course, they can't afford to really maintain them, so once a major component breaks down... they're probably out of luck and have to sell the car for parts or something.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> This is a great idea. I've been working from Sardegna (an island off the coast of Italy/Spain) and have barely been able to hold a skype connection to my office in NYC, even from most big cities.

I would have loved if someone went through and found great internet spots in each city (and even out in the country in some tourist-y spots) in advance so I could follow in their footsteps!!

Even at the least - letting me know that Vodafone is the best connectivity in the South, but sketchy in the northeast.

<comment><USER69> May be expand this hotel wifi speed ranking to local spots? [https://www.hotelwifitest.com/](https://www.hotelwifitest.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Why would being in the center of the city be important? I would think average anywhere in the city would be more reasonable.

I would also like to see the costs of a 2 bedroom apartment. I'd personally rather have an office in my apartment than a co-op space.

What would the price of a small house be within 10 miles of the city? (question that could be added)

How is the NomadCost calculated? These numbers don't add up: [http://nomadlist.io/?hn](http://nomadlist.io/?hn)

<comment><USER24> Most digital nomads I met in years prefer to stay close to where things are happening. Namely, where they have convenient access to food, coffee shops, gyms, coworking spaces, public transport, meeting other like minded people etc. and lastly to not lose tons of valuable time due to long commute to places of interest. I think that's what the project is aiming at. Cost of living for those "edge cases" vary even more than what's discussed in this thread and it'd be damn hard to find common ground. But to answer your question: costs for a setup like you suggest/prefer may literally be half of what city center life would be.

<comment><USER70> How do people deal with moving costs? I have a lot of random stuff that I "need" or would like to have but at the same time I'd be very interested in traveling and working remotely for a year or two.

It would be nice if you also had a "dog friendly/accessible" metric, that's part of the reason why living in a city center isn't reasonable for me personally, I need green spaces rather than tall buildings.

<comment><USER71> I've been working remotely and traveling around the world for the last 5 years. I found I don't really need that much stuff and travel quite often. I'm finally settling in Seattle but still will be moving around often. Not having "stuff" helps a lot.

<comment><USER49> "I've been working remotely and traveling around the world for the last 5 years. I found I don't really need that much stuff and travel quite often." x2

Being minimalist helps, of course. Major items: Clothes and computer. The rest is minor/small.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Kek, since when Israel is in Europe?

<comment><USER4> 1991, at least as far as UEFA is concerned

<comment><USER73> If you take your geographical advice from football federations; Australia is in Asia.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> Very cool. To broaden the appeal I would consider expanding to include things like recreational opportunities. I spent some time road tripping around the us rock climbing and working remotely and know others who have done the same.

Knowing which small towns near climbing areas (or ski areas, or whitewater rivers, or national parks, or whatever) have reasonable coffee shops, hostels, camping etc would have been very valuable.

I guess some of this could be done by integrating a wiki or something.

<comment><USER75> Agree. Cost of living is important. But things like recreation, food and community are really what make a location special. A walkability factor would be nice as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> As someone a bit further up the snakes and ladders board than a lot of younger nomadic types, I woudo like to see a specialised house swapping community around remote workers. This woudo be houses with necessary workspaces, connections and the like. I would happily swap for periods of time during the year, but with dependents in tow. This type of thing woudo be excellent for relocating into time zones suitable for specific projects.

</comment><comment><USER77> Next step is to take some input about user preferences and generate a personalized ranking of places to go. Here's a quick stab at building a 'personalized' desirability index: [https://docs.google.com/a/splitforce.com/spreadsheets/d/1u-6...](https://docs.google.com/a/splitforce.com/spreadsheets/d/1u-6ux3bTytFlaBliXTKu5kWyKzEnVhmB9Ph2DC9n2NA/edit#gid=0)

</comment><comment><USER78> Nice! I have some reservations about some of the data though; f.ex. I have a hard time to believe that SF has only slightly higher costs of living than Berlin.

<comment><AUTHOR> It really depends, the NomadCost is based on staying there for a month, and not being able to rent long-term. So you'll be staying in private rooms in hostels, low-end hotels and CL/AirBnB apts.

Finding a cheap place in East Berlin for a long-term is definitely a viable option. But not if you move around as fast as digital nomads do.

<comment><USER79> All true, but 90 Euros for a private hostel room strikes me as way too much - a quick search on hostels.com ([http://www.hostels.com/berlin/germany?dateFrom=2014-07-31&da...](http://www.hostels.com/berlin/germany?dateFrom=2014-07-31&dateTo=2014-08-03&guestCount=1&homepageSearchType=dropdown#roomTypes=single)) indicates something like 55,- Euros as the median prize. Mind, that's absolute high season right now.

Have you thought about crowdsourcing the data entry?

<comment><USER80> It looks like the prices for Berlin are a bit more reasonable on the spreadsheet now (but not the site yet), but yeah, considering there were 1000+ <€30/night listings just on AirBnB when I was looking last month... it seems like there needs to be a better way to sample/get prices that's more representative. The methodology/approach is somewhat flawed (I also just spent a couple months in Tokyo earlier this year there's some discrepancies there that others have pointed out as well).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> I love the idea.

I notice that the only factors used don't seem to mention any political unrest. For example, the top rated city seems to be in Thailand... which has experienced a lot of political unrest recently: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand#2013.E2.80.932014_poli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thailand#2013.E2.80.932014_political_crisis)

<comment><USER82> The political unrest doesn't really effect day to day living at all for Thailand.

You can read up about it, the latest round actually has a lot of online posts talking about how "tourist friendly" the military was (no joke).

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> Great initiative, but I would add more smaller cities. Also temperature should have some sort of average. Surely it's not great to live in a scorching heat all the time.

That said, I dream one day to work remotely from a live aboard sailboat. Connectivity could be somewhat a problem, but 3G covers a lot of globe and if you are smart enough, living aboard can be very cheap.

</comment><comment><USER84> Anyone interested in joining a startup in Chiang Mai, we are based there and connect developers / designers / business folks to others in the area as well. [http://tropicaldev.com/jobs/](http://tropicaldev.com/jobs/). We are always hiring!

PM if curious about the area, or if you want intros to others here

</comment><comment><USER85> Good idea! But you have to add a visa information for each country.

For example, I like Hong Kong, but you can't stay there more than 2 weeks (if you want stay more, you have to get work permit/get married/have business there etc).

But Thailand afaik is easy country for living for a long time without work permit.

<comment><USER20> Thailand has been clamping down on tourist visa abuse lately and working there in any capacity, even if your business is entirely online and outside Thailand is illegal. You might get away with it but you're definitely taking your chances. Getting a proper work permit there is quite expensive and difficult.

Cambodia and Vietnam are much laxer in this regard but also don't offer the same standard of living.

<comment><USER86> Eh, it is pretty common to Visa runs inside and outside of Thailand, the same day. Pain in the ass, but not a problem. Maybe 5 or 6th time they might get a bit uptight about it. But you could just spend some extra time in Malaysia or Laos or Vietnam.

<comment><USER20> I'm seeing reports of people getting denied with only two previous re-entries:

[http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744129-denied-entry- at-k...](http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744129-denied-entry-at-krabi- airport/)

Hua Hin authorities also just declared that foreigners must carry _original_ passports at all times. I definitely don't like the way this recent visa crackdown has been going and have canceled my own plans to visit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> I honestly cannot imagine how you may end up spending 2000$/month to live in budapest.

I got by with 400€ for years.

</comment><comment><USER88> I would think crime rate should factor into this as well. It's at least as important as weather.

<comment><USER42> +1, wouldn't recommend Brazil if you love your life

<comment><USER89> I live at Sao Paulo (damn expensive) but it is not that dangerous - like many other big cities, there are places you should avoid to walk alone at night.

<comment><USER42> i was in Sao Paulo few days ago, well, comparing to Singapore it's like 100 times more dangerous

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> This is great! Request - could you add the ability to choose your city and normalize the others? Example, I live in NYC, and I want to consider a move, how much cheaper is it? So if NYC cost is normalized to 1, then I can quickly understand the relationship to other places.

</comment><comment><USER86> Vang Vieng in Laos was the cheapest place I lived. Less than A$10 a day for hotel with my own room, internet, food and drinks. And it was a really beautiful place. All the restaurants had wifi, so you could sit and work there all day, overlooking amazing limestone cliffs.

<comment><USER71> A lot easier now without all the crazy tubing I'm sure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> Added Phnom Penh to your list.

If you're a remote worker it's great place. In the city most people speak English, huge expat community, USD is the main currency, stable internet, a few co-working spaces, amazingly cheap to live, and a business visa is no problem.

<comment><USER20> I spent four months in Phnom Penh over the last year or so and overall I'd agree it's not a bad place at all. Downsides are stinky trash everywhere, pedestrian-unfriendly streets, and a generally dodgy and unsafe vibe later at night. I think if I go back to Cambodia for another extended stay I'll try Siem Riep.

Personally I prefer Vietnam but Cambodia is definitely a good option too.

<comment><USER92> If you like the quiet life Battambang is very pleasant. As for Siem Reap, I guess if you stayed for long enough the hawkers would start to recognise you.

<comment><USER20> Haven't been to Battambang but it's on my list of places to check out. I'd be quicker to explore places like that if I spoke some Khmer. I prefer traveling in Vietnam generally because I can speak the language well enough now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> Awesome project! I've passed by many of the cities mentioned in Asia and I have to agree with most of what is up on top of the list. Specially Chiang Mai. I spent a 2 weeks up there and enjoyed it a lot. Met a lot of great people as well.

</comment><comment><USER94> I am not able to add a city - I can open the spreadsheet but it's not editable.

</comment><comment><USER95> There have been some suggestions to add more about visas... the true nomad really should be getting that information as directly as possible and not relying on a website like this, however helpful and handy it is.

</comment><comment><USER96> Bookmarked. You may not see this comment, but I'm planning to travel and work remotely for a couple years after I graduate at the end of the year, and I think something like this will help a lot. Thank you!

</comment><comment><USER97> Sidenote: [http://teleport.org/](http://teleport.org/) Try to do something like that, but not crowdsourced. It's from Sten Tamkivi a16z entrepreneur in residence.

</comment><comment><USER98> Great work. How can people act on the info on specific cities ? There should be a way to balance wrong/right/... for variables that are subjective (weather, friendliness to foreigners, ....)

<comment><AUTHOR> Right now it's crowdsourced from an open Google spreadsheet at [http://nomadlist.io/edit/](http://nomadlist.io/edit/)

Later I'd like to implement so that it uses baseline values from multiple inputs (e.g. like Numbeo does)

</comment></comment><comment><USER99> Some of the text is so low-contrast that I can't read it.

<comment><USER100> This could be even more problematic for vision-impaired readers. Low contrast text should be avoided out of consideration for those with less than perfect sight, even if it looks "cool".

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> Very nice :) Hopefully packing up in a months time and starting to work remotely so a list like this will certainly come in handy when investigating the next stop!

</comment><comment><USER102> I'm not sure where the data is coming from but I'm not convinced Bangkok is worthy of 5/5 stars for safety at the moment.

</comment><comment><USER103> Could you, please, add option to change temperature view to Celsius and integrate option to recalculate $ to several major currencies?

</comment><comment><USER104> The differentiation between [click to view larger photo] and [click text to go to city's page] threw me off for a few minutes.

</comment><comment><USER105> Costs of living are definitely way off, I live in Wroclaw, you can easily live comfortably for $1000, probably even less

<comment><USER106> I think this site calculates the cost of living as a transient; staying in short-term accommodation, eating meals out, etc. The spread sheet specifically asks for the costs of meals and hotel rooms, which is probably why it skews high.

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> I was wondering when you have time to work, most of the time you travel and seeking hotels, internet, startups, ...

</comment><comment><USER108> Awesome idea -- Tim Ferris would love it.

</comment><comment><USER109> Nice, I like the grid presentation. Looks Bootstrap responsive table? What are you using for the column sort?

</comment><comment><USER110> Chiang Mai? You clearly haven't been there! It's nice for a holiday but not for living.

<comment><USER24> Chiang Mai can be one of the best locations to bootstrap a biz by many many factors. There are hundreds of entrepreneurs in varying stages at any given time. I've met ex-Googlers, ex-Applers, developers, consultants, writers, artists etc. etc.. It's a cheap and convenient place to live and focus. Depending on your budget, you can have whatever you please as far as standards go. A quick search on Google will show you that even mass media picked up on CM as a location for digital nomads.

<comment><USER111> I spent some time in Thailand, including Chiang Mai, and it didn't strike me as a haven for driven individuals. Most expats I met there were more interested in prostitutes and beers than starting businesses or work. There are also huge inequalities between the people living there. Overall, I found Chiang Mai more depressing than stimulating.

But maybe things are different when you really settle down.

<comment><USER39> You must have been to the wrong places, dude. The "sexpat" scene here is very small really - you'd have to go to Pattaya or Phuket for that. And also these people don't exactly follow you around, you find them in certain areas - <USER2> you'll never meet them outside those areas.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER112> Damn dude, nice work, I've been following your developments on /r/digitalnomads

<comment><USER113> Tried to head over to /r/digitalnomads and it's banned?

<comment><USER114> [http://www.reddit.com/r/digitalnomad](http://www.reddit.com/r/digitalnomad)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER115> What are the important cultural differences between Chiang Mai and, say New York?

</comment><comment><USER116> The HackerNews logo in the footer is also really pretty, did you also make that?

</comment><comment><USER117> nicee pieterhg 3 days ago | link

Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk :) pieterhg 3 days ago | link

Hi HN! I made this. Here's some info on the data before everyone goes berzerk :)

</comment><comment><USER118> Nice. Although I'd write the first four off on temperature alone...

</comment><comment><USER119> You can live in Buenos Aires for half the price in the nomad list.

<comment><USER120> I think what he did was take the official exchange rate. I live on that amount (or a bit more), but i've got two kids in private school, a house with a pool, house keeper, etc.. It's important to use the real exchange rate not the official one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER121> SF is 3/5 for safety? Where's that metric coming from.

</comment><comment><USER122> I'm calling nonsense on Omaha costing more than Tokyo.

</comment><comment><USER123> Anybody can vouch for Philippines? Which city is the best?

<comment><USER124> I like Cebu City but the internet is not always as stable as what you might find in the US.

</comment></comment><comment><USER125> super useful resource I'm sure, and I'd like to chat ideas to monetize, or at least capitalize on the knowledge too.

Is it cool to share this?

@motormanwrithes MANILA - LONDON - <USER3>

</comment><comment><USER126> I knew that Chiang Mai would've been there surely.

</comment><comment><USER127> What do the points in the left-most column represent?

</comment><comment><USER128> How is Omaha more expensive than Tokyo?

</comment><comment><USER129> This is going to be so useful!

</comment><comment><USER130> Fahrenheit, seriously?:(

Good concept though.

</comment><comment><USER131> I'm sorry but 2950 for living in Amsterdam for a month, that's insane.

</comment><comment><USER132> Thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER133> Using Fahrenheit (the degrees column for each city) as a measurement isn't very _international_.

</comment><comment><USER134> Are there any good resources in getting the appropriate visa/permit to work in foreign countries? I just got the go-ahead to work remote and I'm looking into working abroad, but information on remote working and the appropriate visas seem few and far in between.

To those that have done it, where do you look/who do you ask when looking for this type of information? Do you just get ahold of someone at the appropriate embassy/consulate or is there some service you can pay for to assist with the process?

<comment><USER100> This is a really broad question, and it depends largely on where you're from, where you want to go, and what you want to do. Can you elaborate? If you just want to have a good time for a while I'd check out whether your country has working holiday visa arrangements with any other countries.

<comment><USER134> For me personally, I'm looking at Europe. I'm coming from America so I could possibly get away with 3 month stints on a Schengen visa, but I've been looking for long-term 6-12 months.

I'm just starting to look into this though, so general tips/resources/strategies for getting the proper permits is always a plus.

As an aside, I'd never heard the term "Working Holiday" before so that in and of itself is a new avenue of approach.

<comment><USER100> I've begun work on something for someone just like you, because that was me two years ago. [http://www.pond-crosser.com/](http://www.pond-crosser.com/). It's not much at the moment but I hope it becomes a useful resource. You might find the following interesting:

Irish Working Holiday Program Dutch American Friendship Treaty German Blue Card (Need a job in Germany, but those are supposed to be easy to get and the Blue Card gives you freedom to live and work in the EU after only three years).

Also, it's true you can bounce between Schengen and non-Schengen Europe, but I wouldn't assume immigration officers will always be delighted with you. Drop me a line at the email address in my profile if you want to talk more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER135> I don't see this as very useful. People are different, so are countries. Internet is very relative. Can be extremely slow and extremely fast in one city. Beijing 20 MBPS? Really? Maybe when you are torrenting or using Baidu. The Eardex Index [http://flyingdutchman.co/cost-living-world-wide- county/](http://flyingdutchman.co/cost-living-world-wide-county/) provides more info. But even this is like selecting you girl friend based on numbers.

<comment><USER136> > Internet is very relative. Can be extremely slow and extremely fast in one > city.

My experience has been the same. Maybe it could hook into [https://www.hotelwifitest.com/](https://www.hotelwifitest.com/), but even that isn't too accurate.

The hotel I'm staying in at the moment (well known business brand) provides 2Mbps, but I can get 50Mbps over 4G. The only issue is that data is very expensive here, so I can blow $40 worth of data in 2 minutes at that speed :D For coding that's fine, but if you are doing video editing or such you'll probably want something faster and more data.

</comment></comment><comment><USER137> Cost of living by city:

[http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of- living/rankings_current.jsp](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of- living/rankings_current.jsp)

</comment><comment><USER138> Those numbers are all made up.</comment>


Prediction 1957: Pneumatic Tube Roadways - <AUTHOR> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/future-that-never-was-pneumatic-tube-roadways#slide-38

<comment><USER2> The proposed Hyperloop's operation is quite different from a pneumatic tube, which forces objects through with air pressure. The design document explicitly describes the limitations of pneumatic tubes:

"At one extreme of the potential solutions is some enlarged version of the old pneumatic tubes used to send mail and packages within and between buildings. You could, in principle, use very powerful fans to push air at high speed through a tube and propel people-sized pods all the way from LA to San Francisco. However, the friction of a 350 mile long column of air moving at anywhere near sonic velocity against the inside of the tube is so stupendously high that this is impossible for all practical purposes."

<comment> Joe-Z Even if it's not the same as the hyperloop I still find it very interesting to see that similar ideas have already appeared in the 1950's and obviously not been executed.

I saw this talk a while back by Peter Thiel ("You're not a lottery ticket")* where he specifically mentions the decline of big infrastructure projects, beginning around the 50's-60's. (I don't know how true this claim is though, since I haven't really studied the development of infrastructure in the USA in the 2nd half of the 20th century).

I often wonder if Elon Musk could be more than just a guy making money off of awesome ideas but also a catalyzer for bigger societal changes as far as optimism in big infrastructure and future investments is concerned.

*[http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&ut...](http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/29931127?utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=29931127&utm_medium=social)

<comment><USER3> We probably had to pick between big infrastructure projects that benefited ordinary people (e.g. bridge maintenance, universal health care) and big infrastructure projects for the military industrial complex (e.g. a bewildering variety of fortified / mobile / densely packed / widely spaced ICBM launchers, enormous early warning systems, fleets of bombers capable of flying high or low, fast or slow around the world and back with multiple thermonuclear weapons, enough aircraft carriers to control the world's oceans and rotate for maintenance and shore leave, an even larger number of nuclear submarines to launch ICBMs, hunt rival submarines, perform covert intelligence-gathering missions in "enemy" waters, and protect the aforementioned aircraft carriers, SDI, etc.).

You can only spend more money on the military than the rest of the world combined and undertake so many other projects.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Predictions of technology from long ago just aren't interesting, since it's trivial to fantasize about technologies without having to think about implementation.

I can predict today of future flying cars, teleporters, mind-controlled interfaces, Turing-test AIs, electrically powered autonomous airplanes, giant tubes that go through the center of the Earth and take me directly to China, a massive spaceship that takes all of Earth's 20 billion people to a new galaxy in the year 2380, etc. etc.

Doesn't mean that I know anything.

<comment><USER5> We are scheduled to have flying cars by 2015 according to "Back to The Future Part 2." I'm sure the car companies will announce something in the next year to get us ready for it. I would just be happy with a hover board.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The Victorians had pneumatic railways powered by power stations generating a vacuum. If it wasn't for the perishability of leather we might still be using them:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_railway)

</comment><comment><USER7> The original 1957 article referred to is available beginning at [1], with the drawing on the following page; the specific paragraph about pneumatic tubes is on p206 [2].

And two paragraphs later:

      Contents of the world's greatest libraries and schools will be
      available to anyone over special television services. From an
      armchair, it will be possible to call for any information by
      coded request.

[1] [http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100](http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100) [2] [http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260](http://books.google.com/books?id=JuEDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA260)

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm guessing the department store vacuum tube systems used to send items to different areas of the store was the inspiration for this.

</comment><comment><USER9> New York had it in 1873. Well, they _tried_ to have it.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit)

</comment><comment><USER10> What do you call predictions whose sum is not predictive?

<comment><USER11> Speculation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hyperloop simulates stratospheric flight.

But its electric jet engine doesn't propel, but prevents syringe-like air build-up.

</comment><comment><USER13> should I mention futurama?

</comment><comment><USER14> With all due respect to Elon Musk (and he deserves a lot of respect) and acknowledging the truly positive and altruistic motivations (those I assume) -- his idea is good, but not new. It's fine with me if he has resurrected the notion of a "pneumatic" vehicle. Perhaps it's simply a fact that now is finally the time to do this.

<comment><USER15> Musk's design is neither a pneumatic, nor a vacuum tube system. It's more like an enclosed high altitude system.

<comment><USER16> Sort of a Concorde-railgun, if you will...</comment></comment></comment>


Sony fights spread of stolen data by using "bad seed" attack on torrents - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/sony-fights-spread-of-stolen-data-by-using-bad-seed-attack-on-torrents/ <comment><USER2> It proves once more that it's time to ditch SHA1 in favour of more secure options.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is the moral of the story that Sony condones denial of service attacks?</comment>


Ask HN: Is it okay to resign in six months? - <AUTHOR> Hello,
I joined a YC company 2 months ago. Currently, there are around 400 people working here. People over here are good as well but I got an offer from Facebook on yesterday. I think so it can be a good opportunity for me. Not just in terms of money but in terms of career growth, people, work, learning, tech, etc. My job profile is a Software Developer.
I am 24 years old. Graduated six months ago. After a year or two, I am also thinking to do MBA/MS from a top 20 universities. I think so Facebook's tag will also help me to get the admission at a good university.
I need the help of HN community to guide me a little bit over here :)
Sorry, but I can not provide you more details about myself because many people from my current company are on Hackernews.
Thank you. <comment><USER3> Since you've given enough details to identify yourself, I would go ahead and pull the trigger on the Facebook offer as promptly as possible.

After you leave your current job, people will look at your empty chair for several weeks and shrug. After 3 weeks, there will be someone new sitting there. After 6 weeks, you won't be mentioned. After 6 months you won't be remembered. After 6 years, you won't remember them either.

<comment><USER4> I just had lunch with folks that I last worked with twelve years ago. We seemed to remember each other.

<comment><USER5> But did you have any contact with them outside of your work within the past 12 years?

<comment><USER6> This. Also did they work with them for only 2 months in at least a 400 person company.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Take the FB offer if you want it. There is nothing wrong with doing so. The startup you are at should be fairly far along given it is at 400 people, but face it even with FB on your resume you'll become more attractive to other startups later. Take the cash, save some money up.

Given you have only been at the YC company 2 months you stand little to no chance of negotiating a higher wage immediately, so even if they do entertain it I'd say they would make it a future agreement. e.g. you do x, y and z then they will increase you to a new salary etc.

In general, don't go to any existing employer with another offer and say I am leaving unless. That is a bad move and makes you look bad and leaves a sour taste with people about you. Instead if you like your current employer and want to stay, go to them and say hey, I feel I am worth more and try and negotiate the increase. If they say no, then explain you understand but feel differently. Tell them it may change whether you can stay at that point because you have X goal, but don't say another offer. If they still don't budge then that tells you what they think of you or the companies health. If instead you do it with the job offer as an ultimatum what happens is they may temporarily give you an increase, but now consider you disloyal and will be putting you and every action you take, or day off you take under a microscope and will replace you in short order. If they instead gave you a raise because you negotiated it without putting them over a barrel with another offer then they won't have that same feeling. Also, sometimes when you approach an employer, as I have suggested, they'll ask if you have other offers already, I wouldn't lie, I'd say yes but I am not here trying to back you into a corner, however I have certain goals I want to achieve and needed to see if my opinion on my value would be validated in the market, as they were I was hoping to stay here but be compensated with T....

<comment><USER8> Having another offer in hand gives you leverage. It signals to your current employer that the market is willing to pay more than your employer pays now. I would not dismiss using it to get more compensation. Just don't present it as a threat. Just be straight forward to your manager. Tell him/her that the offer makes it very hard for you to justify to stay and if they can do something about the compensation to make it worth your while.

An employer that doesn't understand that an employee would leave over a significantly better offer is an employer that you don't want to work for to begin with.

<comment><USER9> I would personally never do this. If you stay, it will be different. Everyone, especially your boss will think of you as someone who is about to leave. That's not a good thing.

It's ironic, because anyone could leave for a better job at any time. But actually going through the negotiation/threatening to leave makes it more real.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't even understand the question. You can resign whenever you want. It's customary to give 2 weeks notice.

<comment><USER11> Two weeks notice? I wish. My current employer requires three months.

<comment><USER12> I would assume/hope this means you have a senior role and are well paid. This is not uncommon for members of a leadership team etc to ensure reasonable transition times and stability. Also most employers will show flexibility here in my experience. E.g. A couple of jobs back an employee just requested I be on call for a couple months for the new person should they need help and kept paying my salary just to be available.

That said, if you're a lowly paid shit kicker that would seem wrong as typically a new junior job they want to to start ASAP and wouldn't wait for 3 months. So that could hurt your ability to find new work.

<comment><USER11> I'm not in a senior role. I do enjoy my job but I'm basically a sole Rails dev - I develop an app that the company offers to clients, which I suspect plays into the long notice period - I suspect they'd have a fair amount of difficulty replacing me.

But yes I suspect that's part of why they have such a long notice period - when I've spoken to recruiters / hiring managers elsewhere they're interested right until the point where they discover I have a three month notice period.

<comment><USER12> Then I'd suggest ensure you have some savings together to cover a 'just in case' prolonged search then talk to your employer that you need a better notice period as you keen for something new. Pitch it as this gives to time to find the right job rather than rush off. They might be reasonable. You might even end up with a counter offer that makes you want to stay.

If they won't change, quit on the spot. Then you've got 3 months to find a job.

Edit: Added the pitch it as.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's a bad look to be leaving jobs every 6-18 months repeatedly, but one or two incidences won't tank your career.

The FB offer looks like a great opportunity, but if you only stay there a year, you're designing a resume that will get you labeled as a job hopper and screened out of a lot of future roles at the resume stage.

Whichever you choose - the current job or FB - I suggest you make sure you stay there for at least 2 full years before making your next move, whether to grad school or another company.

<comment><USER14> Anecdata: I jumped jobs every 3-5 months for the first 2 years of my career and went from 50k - 250k with a 20-50k raise every time.

I've been at my current gig almost two years now.

<comment><USER15> When was that? With comp being much higher these days, companies are being more selective. Well, non-FAANGs are.

<comment><USER16> shouldn't it be the other way around? by being more selective, companies shrink the pool of candidates that are already limited. That results in them having to pay even more comp!

<comment><USER15> Selective about the job hoppers, I mean. They do give solid comp but if you get a 100k signing bonus with a 1 year clawback you aren't keeping that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I _happily_ resigned from a big four consulting company after three weeks. They misrepresented the location and hours I'd be working during the interview process.

I don't doubt I have a black line through my name at the company, and I don't give a damn.

Is it okay for me to have resigned after only three weeks? For me, it certainly was.

<comment><USER18> Absolutely. It's better to resign after 2 months than 6 months.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I left a job after 2 months because I got the offer of a lifetime (leadership opportunity at a fledging startup). I felt really bad about the situation, but at the end of the day it hasn't affected me negatively. It was a huge boost to my career and I'm way ahead as a result.

</comment><comment><USER20> the thing is you are getting nervous over this. it is understandable as you only graduated six months ago, and this is clearly your first job.

however, leaving your current job for a better opportunity is an everyday affair in the private sector. we are all accustomed to it.

There is nothing wrong with this. Your colleagues should be happy for you.

</comment><comment><USER21> You will be fine whichever you decide. There are always consequences to any path of action. In this case, let yourself be calmed by knowing that none will cause your ship to spring critical leaks. I have back to back <6 months full time positions on my resume. I was hired by a YC company directly after those.

You sound like a bright kid. You'll figure something out that works well for you. Remember that your own judgment is the signal in all of this tech hype chatter noise and you'll be just fine.

</comment><comment><USER22> I would take the FB offer. More money and more opportunity for future jobs.

Also, for reasons I don't understand many startups have a loyalty test for their devs that you may have failed by interviewing with other companies. I didn't believe that was actually a thing until it happened to my brother two months ago. Your manager may already be looking to replace you... even if you do stick around.

</comment><comment><USER23> FAANG jobs are more or less corporate jobs deluxe unless you are going to work in some r&d team doing interesting stuff.

Evaluate following:

Does money matter to you ? If so go with FB. Does stability matter to you ? Go for FB.

The thing is if you go with FB you will become much more risk averse thanks to the lifestyle it is going to provide for you. Steady stream of $ and a relative stability will make you too comfortable.

Although money never hurts.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've done it before. The job wasn't at all what I expected, and I didn't see myself growing the way I wanted while there. It sucked to do as it was a very small team and a non profit, but it was the right choice for myself. I have no regrets.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think it's really interesting seeing how companies ranging from a small startup shop to massive multinational conglomerates have managed to instill their workers with a sense of loyalty and duty.

I've worked at tech companies with 10, 100, and thousand of employees and every time it was the same. Eventually I'd feel like I've stagnated, stopped learning, and it was time to move on into a new position for my own personal growth. However, after spending years with a group of people there's an unmistakable camaraderie so even if you don't feel duty-bound to do right by the intangible entity that is the company, and why would you, you may still feel that you gotta do right by your colleagues, people with whom you've spent heaps of time in the 'trenches'. Every time I felt that I had to do right by them and not leave them hanging.

I dunno if this is due to me having empathy or just a result of my inflated ego, maybe I'd like to feel like they'll crush-n-burn without me and I wanna feel magnanimous? In any case, I've experienced this over and over and each time while I'd eventually leave I'd make my intentions known several months in advance and try to be as accommodating as possible.

I wonder if any of you have struggled with this conundrum and if so how you managed it cause I'd like to stop experiencing this moral whirlwind every time I feel like I'm ready to switch jobs :).

</comment><comment><USER26> One thing to keep in mind, you don't owe your current company anything. (Well assuming you don't have a signing bonus or something) Somehow we got a culture where it is ok for a company to fire people in a heartbeat but it isn't ok for them to leave in a heartbeat. Do what is right for you. This isn't something we can answer. Is the compensation significantly better? Do you like the people you are working with, what you are working on, where you are working? What is the work life balance like? How is your current commute?

Finally I'm not sure why you want an MBA, but i don't think having Facebook on your resume is going to help you get into an MBA anymore than any other job.

</comment><comment><USER27> Leaving what sounds like a reasonably good gig, just so you can tag yourself with "Facebook developer" for getting into a school only 1-2 years from now sounds short-sighted.

</comment><comment><USER28> Don't make the mistake of humanizing a company. A company is not a person: it has no loyalty or sense of decency, and no moral obligation towards your wellbeing. You are a worker: you provide work for money. If you were a farmer selling lettuce to a supermarket and a new supermarket came along offering more, would you sell your lettuce to the old or the new customer? The new one, of course. Same here. Because the supermarket won't think twice about ditching you when it finds cheaper lettuce elsewhere.

This said, your manager will have feelings about it, so you want to deal with that. Just be frank with him and manage his expectations: "Obviously I'll help the transition as much as I can and I'll always be grateful for the chance, and let's stay in touch in case you need anything when I'm not here anymore." Talk to the man, not the company. The company doesn't care.

Take the chance dude, some boats only pass once. After you have "those" names on a CV, more doors will open.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot for it. Your words are really helping me to take the decision. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> As a hiring manager that has been in similar situation with employees - <USER2> what is best for yourself, but be aware that your current manager won't feel good about this situation and will try to move on as fast as possible as well. If you go to FB try not to leave in the next 2 years, because hiring managers don't like job hoppers these days. Ideally, don't even include your 6 months tenure in your resume.

<comment><USER30> Isn't job hopping _expected_ for somebody this young? An entire career of job hopping I could understand but somebody in their twenties is going to benefit from different experiences, no? Seems like working at a few different places would be more helpful to a potential company than somebody whose only experience is one place for five years.

<comment><AUTHOR> OP is here. Totally agree with you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I would say take the Facebook offer esp. if you are considering MBA/MS in next 1-2 years. That brand will help immensely. One thing is not clear. You joined this company 2 months ago and graduated 6 months ago. Is this your second job? If yes then by the time you apply for MBA in 1-2 years with 2 job changes that may cause issue but am not sure in which schools.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your advice.

Actually, I was waiting for my visa :-) I studied somewhere else and now working in Amsterdam. I guess I can simply hide my current job in my resume or I can say it didn't work out. What do you think about that?

<comment><USER32> > I guess I can simply hide my current job in my resume or I can say it didn't > work out. What do you think about that?

Leave off your resume. If it's brought up in the future, simply explain an opportunity you couldn't pass up presented yourself, and you took it. You're not leaving it off your resume to misrepresent your situation, you're leaving it off your resume because it doesn't accurately represent your work history.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> FROM AUTHOR EDIT 1:

Thank you very much guys for awesome guidance. I also have one more doubt. How should I talk to my manager about it? My manager put some serious efforts(time and company's money) to get me there. I am feeling bad about my manager. I don't want to disturb my relations with my manager.

<comment><USER33> It is your managers job to build their team, so the time and money put in to bring you on board is their problem, not yours. Maybe your departure will be a lesson learned for your manager. And maybe they will try to avoid hiring short-timers in the future. So you helped them learn a lesson, and contributed for 6 months. And they paid you for your time. That is a fair business transaction.

Also, 5 years from now, if you do go on to Facebook and higher degrees, and other things... you may barely remember the names of the people from this job. Your current situation has a far larger place in your mind than it will in the bigger picture of your career and your life, once you have more experience under your belt.

I had this discussion, frankly, with my manager the last time I left a job. It was a startup, with struggles, but a promising future. It was a good place. But I didn't want to follow them to an office farther from my home. So I told him that while it seemed like leaving would be a big thing, that in reality, 6 months later, it would make no difference to them or me. And that was true - they hired other devs, I got a different job, everyone is doing fine.

In short, you just need to make this decision for yourself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Give the YC company a chance to match the offer. If they decline, take the FB offer.

Unless that YC company turns into a unicorn, that FB experience on your resume will open many many doors for you in the future.

<comment><AUTHOR> That company will go for an IPO in 2023 most likely. They might become a unicorn company in 2023 but still, I am not sure about that.

I have to stay up to 3-4 years at least in the current company to get all the rewards. This is my first job actually.

<comment><USER33> Every startup hopes they'll be a unicorn in 3-5 years. A couple actually will. Most of them won't. Many of them won't even be around.

Don't make job decisions based on the internal hype of where a startup hopes to be in the future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> yes its ok.

don't overthink.

</comment><comment><USER36> FB is the only company I wouldn't accept an offer for, I'd still apply but only use any offers submitted for leverage.

I'm surprised no other commenter has brought this up yet but you do realize that short of working for the NSA Facebook is the most unethical job I can think of for a Dev.

Every other week they're being blasted on HN for another ethical violation and everyone comments on how their devs must have known what they were doing when "they did X fucked up thing to Y users", etc...

I'd take the offer to your current employer or literally anyone else you might be interviewing with and tell Facebook to suck a lemon.

<comment><USER37> What is unethical about working for the NSA as a dev?

<comment><USER38> You're willingly assisting an organization with very unethical goals. It doesn't matter whether you're a cryptographer, janitor, developer, or whatever.

<comment><USER37> >unethical goals What are their goals that you think are unethical? Is gathering intelligence for maintaining the security of the US unethical?

<comment><USER39> Mass surveillance and reducing the security of the US by undermining cryptographic standards (eg Dual-EC DRBG) are unethical.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Lessons from a 'local food' scam artist - <AUTHOR> http://narrative.ly/foodie-fables-and-foibles/lessons-from-a-local-food-scam-artist <comment><USER2> ""I wait every year for the real Jersey tomatoes. You can't get that country flavor in the city!" They couldn't get it here, either: These were New Mexican beefsteaks."

I used to work on a tomato farm (Florida) and I live in New Mexico. I've been all over the state. They grow lots of chilies here. And some corn, onions melons. They don't grow tomatoes on any scale that I've ever seen in New Mexico.

It was an entertaining article but I think some "artistic license" was taken.

<comment><USER3> Good to know, thanks. I was tempted to look up why they would be growing tomatoes in the desert.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> People need to keep in mind that buying local food isn't necessarily better for the environment. Sometimes local produce production produces far more greenhouse gases than imported produce: [http://www.salon.com/2008/06/24/food_miles/](http://www.salon.com/2008/06/24/food_miles/)

<comment><USER5> That's quite true. To me the important thing to note is that while people in SF or Portland can feel smug about sourcing locally --I mean, it's great, it's nice to have fresh fruit and vegetables, I enjoy them myself living in this fecund area, the implicit bias or even superiority, is that they are better for having natural resources nearby than are people who live in metropolises which are far from the fruit of the earth.

It's at time a kind of virulent elitist bias in that they feel that they are naturally better --they are better for the fate of the planet than are people who rely on long distance transportation for their foodstuffs. to be clear, it's not many people who feel that way, but you can feel the vibe in the way they talk about it. It's very latent, but the feeling is there.

Afterall, few people can be like René Redzepi and source locally in areas not known for a cornucopia of harvests.

[edited out 'a kind of racism' for virulent elitist bias, at another poster's suggestion --I still think it's racism just not based on 'race']

<comment><USER6> Instead of "racism," how about "prejudice," "bias," or "elitism," or "bigotry?" Human races are already a cultural construct, no point in misusing a term by applying it to something that doesn't even have anything to do with ancestry.

<comment><USER5> I've edited the word 'race' out --but want to make the point that race is not based on ancestry. Its meaning can shift quite a bit. Recall the English thought German immigrants were an 'inferior race'. But as conceptualized in today's English, white Germans and white English are today considered the same 'race'. In vernacular speech 'racism' is equivalent to bigotry and also intolerance.

<comment><USER6> In your example, the English had a problem with Germans and people of German descent, that is, their ancestry. _Nobody_ calls San Franciscans, Californians, "coastal people" (vs. Middle Americans), or "city folk" (vs. "country folk"), a race.

Understanding vernacular English is how I knew what you meant, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to poorly use a word that has a more specific meaning when there are plenty of more general words to convey your point.

I also have a problem with prejudice against muslims being called "racist" so using it to refer to San Franciscan localvore attitudes about the rest of the country didn't stand a chance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is a good article but that modal popup for the newsletter has to go.

<comment><USER8> I surf the internet with Firefox's NoScript plugin. I haven't seen a modal popup in years.

<comment><USER9> You _are_ almost certainly seeing increasing numbers of CSS flyover, pop-up, modal, and other tricks, however.

I've been tweaking my default CSS to kill those, though with considerable collateral damage.

Hint to Web designers: do _not_ use any of those names for elements you actually want people to see. And don't hide stuff under legit-sounding elements either.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> In which the author learns that some real douchey people can occasionally be found in New York and New Jersey...

<comment><USER11> You can see this anywhere. My mom discovered I like expensive third-wave coffee...and shelled out for a box of Starbucks Via instant for Christmas (thanks, Mom). It all tastes the same to her. Meanwhile I'm sure someone is scoffing at my plebian mainstream Blue Bottle preferences... and the farmer who grew the beans has never had coffee at all but is happy to grow it and sell it to the weird foreigners...

I believe authenticity, like confidence, winds up being something you have rather than attain. My Chinese-from-China family and I will happily eat Panda Express orange chicken...because it tastes good.

In the end, if people are happy, why not let them be? They're only being douches if you believe authenticity itself has any value.

<comment><USER10> > Meanwhile I'm sure someone is scoffing at my plebian mainstream Blue Bottle > preferences...

Haha. That person would be me. Gotta roast your own bro :) (Plus, $5 a cup??)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is kind of the lesson for any kind of connoisseur. A lot of it is pretense and the rest is just learned behavior --finessing it and narrowing preferences ever more for mostly narcissistic reasons. We know that for the most part all tastes are acquired tastes. Even for spoiled wines, or the ones with the most natural adjectives. Their chemistry and effect on the body are quite similar.

So yeah, most of it is in people's minds -- which is why even professionals fail blind taste tests of characteristics the have been amassing expertise for over years....

It's such a self-scam. It's not even other people scamming us. We willingly participate in an elaborate social scam of a game.

If you want to know what tastes good or bad, ask a two or three year old -- before they learn the socially imposed preferences.

[edit] There was a time when people used to exalt at the freshness of the fish at their local sushi (sashimi) bar. "It tastes like they just fished it from the ocean." The received preference now to love 'tasty' sashimi --it takes fish a few days[1] in the fridge or freezer to acquire a more mature taste, whereas fish out of the water have almost no taste.

[1][https://tasteoftravelroge.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/fish- to-a...](https://tasteoftravelroge.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/fish-to-age-or- not-to-age/)

</comment><comment><USER12> The only reason to buy local is for a lower price, otherwise what's the point? Everything is local to somewhere.

Very nice article though!

<comment><USER13> Because maybe you want your money to pay for the food and not the global transportation networks that brought you the food?

Do you really believe the only reason to buy one thing over another is the price?

<comment><USER14> > Because maybe you want your money to pay for the food and not the global > transportation networks that brought you the food?

Sure, okay, but...why? Better for the environment? Doesn't seem to be the case. Tighter-nit community? Idealogical opposition to roads? Protectionism?

Serious question. Why?</comment></comment></comment>


Webpack v2 is officially released - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/webpack/webpack-2-2-the-final-release-76c3d43bf144 <comment><USER2> The article says version 2.2. Is the headline wrong, or is there some kind of weird back story in which versions 2.0 and 2.1 met some strange fate preventing them from being "officially released"?

<comment><USER3> The headline is not wrong, it is 2.2.0.

The reason is there was apparently an earlier attempt some time ago to release a v2, but it didn't go through at the time: [https://twitter.com/TheLarkInn/status/821451320137748481](https://twitter.com/TheLarkInn/status/821451320137748481)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Can anyone suggest a good resource for getting started with webpack? I've tried messing around with it before in the past and never figured it out.

<comment><USER5> Sure! webpack.js.org/concepts

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Any improvements coming for faster hoy module reloading? I get 2s + most of the time

<comment><USER7> Try tweaking your source map configuration

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Any big reason to upgrade?

<comment><USER9> They added support for lazy loading React modules. Helpful for large SPA-style apps. [https://webpack.js.org/guides/lazy-load- react/](https://webpack.js.org/guides/lazy-load-react/)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Anyone else having YouTube remove private videos? - <AUTHOR> I upload home videos to YouTube as a backup to my local storage. They are marked as private videos.
In the last week, YouTube has flagged for deletion 2 of the videos as being against their community guidelines. Since they have my children in the videos, I assume this is fallout from elsagate.
I appealed the first flagging since I couldn't tell what was wrong with it. It seems this is an automated process since none of my questions in the appeal were answered.
The removals do not cause a negative effect on your account.
A couple of questions:
1) Has anyone else had private videos removed from YouTube?
2) Is there a way to contact support at YouTube for a specific reason as to why the video was removed?
Thanks. <comment> ng-user From what I've heard/read the process is very opaque and you may never truly know why it was removed, or flagged.

Why not back them up to some physical storage you're able to control rather than letting a 3rd party delete your backups on a whim?

</comment><comment><USER2> Yes I have too but it was a while back. I had an unlisted video with no views in like 2 years suddenly get flagged. My kids were dancing to the music during the credits at the end of a movie. You couldn't even see the tv screen.</comment>


Ask HN: Is the concept of the "next big tech hub" silly? - <AUTHOR> In the sense that something can rival the tech hubs of the West Coast, even Seattle? <comment><USER2> The center of the tech universe will always be the point of least resistance (to new ideas, cultures, mixing, lifestyles, etc).

For now, that's San Francisco (apparently) but for how much longer is anyone's guess.

Unless the necessary environment changes (i.e. tolerance is no longer a requirement) it will remain in SF or a place like it.

If tolerance and acceptance is somehow no longer necessary for a tech hub to bloom, it might end up anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER3> Germany has as many as 10 Silicon Valleys, or regions that use Silicon on their name to aim for that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Silicon_Valley](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Silicon_Valley)

To be honest when I read another article comparing a German city with the Bay Area or another video titles "Could X become the next Silicon Valley" I tune out.

London - following in Silicon Valley's footsteps? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH5FbRixBYs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH5FbRixBYs)

This City in Siberia Could Become the Next Silicon Valley [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66MJEzkU8HE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66MJEzkU8HE)

Is Israel the next Silicon Valley? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5dF8lSlnFs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5dF8lSlnFs)

Detroit: The next Silicon Valley? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-C9iuYCedY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-C9iuYCedY)

Is Sweden the New Silicon Valley? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuE38_CHKfg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuE38_CHKfg)

Is Phoenix the Next Silicon Valley? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9DG372oZzk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9DG372oZzk)

Why Vietnam could be the world's next Silicon Valley [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6nsTK_AHM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6nsTK_AHM)

Can Australia become the next Silicon Valley? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ins4AgOSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-ins4AgOSE)

The Next Silicon Valley? Head to France [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ijMtau5dw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ijMtau5dw)

</comment><comment><USER4> This isn't really an answer, but I've noticed that the people most prone to declare the next great hub fall into one of two main camps:

1.) Journalists.

2.) Regional economic development types.

</comment><comment><USER5> I imagine it'll happen eventually. Maybe not to the same extent, but not everyone wants to pay exorbitant costs or live on the west coast...

I'd gladly take less money and continue to live / set up a business in Chicago.

</comment><comment><USER2> The cen</comment>