GUI development is broken - <AUTHOR> http://www.charlesetc.com/gui-development-is-broken/ <comment><USER2> The outlined problem in the article has all of the requirements of a full GUI toolkit, yet the only GUI toolkit looked at is discarded as being too much. The proposed alternative is to recreate XUL in JSON. I weep for our industry.

<comment><USER3> What are other suggestions? (I haven't done any searching but it sounds like you had some in mind.)

<comment><USER2> Not an OCaml dev- it looks like wxwidgets has bindings, which is what I'd use for 'minimal'. But a text editor with the type of features he wants is not minimal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > I wanted something reasonably fast, with a simple way of producing graphics.

Use the text widget in tcl/tk. It can display graphics and is powerful enough to build an old HTML 4.01 editor.

> I wanted to draw a horizontal line between the name of the file and its > contents.

Use the text widget in tcl/tk. You can hard-code a base64 encoded gif/jpeg of a horizontal line, store it in memory, and display it wherever you need a horizontal line.

> I wanted to be able to open new instances/windows of this text editor > quickly to fit into my workflow.

Use the text widget in tcl/tk. Tk's design is the old-school multiple- toplevel-window paradigm which is perfect for this use case.

> And I wanted low-level control of how the text was rendered (fonts, syntax > highlighting, and the ability to add vim keybindings.)

Use the text widget in tcl/tk. It allows you to tag particular parts of the text which you can later manipulate. But it is _way_ more lightweight than the DOM.

> I wanted this to be easy.

Then use the text widget in tcl/tk.

<comment><USER5> ...tcl/tk is always being worked on, too. If only the ttk widgets were easier to style and more consistent between the platforms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Everyone complaining about the state of UI development should give Dear Imgui (and similar immediate mode UIs) a whirl. It may not yet be the right solution for all types of UIs, but it makes creating UIs fun again and the productivity is astonishing.

[https://github.com/ocornut/imgui](https://github.com/ocornut/imgui)

Checkout the screenshot threads [https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/issues/1607](https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/issues/1607)

Especially desktop apps like this look interesting: [https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/issues/1607#issuecomment-37...](https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/issues/1607#issuecomment-372018336)

And it's small enough to work well with WebAssembly: [https://floooh.github.io/sokol-html5/wasm/imgui- emsc.html](https://floooh.github.io/sokol-html5/wasm/imgui-emsc.html)

<comment><USER7> Unfortunately usual system-wide settings and accessibility features seem to suffer (be ignored) if those are used, just as with cairo (or SDL). The other methods mentioned in the article seem to be better in those aspects, unless they are explicitly made to be less so.

</comment></comment><comment> dylan-m It's silly to discard GTK as overcomplicated because it is designed for more than "a few buttons and some text". Surely the author's JSON idea would end up in the same place. After all, it's a GUI toolkit that is going to be serving the needs of many different applications; just in the flavour of the month, instead of a shared library. (And as far as GUI toolkits are concerned, GTK generally strikes me as quite modest. It has a lot of widgets, but they aren't terribly redundant, and it doesn't have stuff like an analog clock widget for that one developer who wanted an analog clock. And the odd ones that are there, like the different kinds of buttons, are pretty transparent quality-of- life helpers where it's clear how to make your own if you want).

With that said, nobody cares about GObject Introspection in OCaml. So unless you want to maintain that, you're stuck with an ancient wrapper library for GTK2, which is pretty sad. I definitely would avoid it.

If we're going to discard GTK for a reason that isn't "I probably picked the wrong language", I'd add that it's challenging to target non-"Linux" platforms with it, but then your best option for that is Qt, and if you pick Qt you probably aren't using OCaml…

So I can see where he's coming from, at least for OCaml, but, uh, JSON?

<comment><USER8> It's not obvious to me: why wouldn't someone using OCaml use QT? I see some bindings; is there something that makes QT less appropriate than GTK, e.g. C++ vs. C?

<comment> dylan-m Actually, looking back at it: I've been living under a rock and oblivious to how successful Qt Quick has been :b Before I lost the plot, Qt relied on a lot of C++ particulars (and they used to recommend their own precompiler for some features), so it was trickier to work with it from other languages. Some of that has been improved over the years, and it has a simpler surface nowadays with Qt Quick, so, yes, use Qt!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I got excited about the headline, because I whole-heartedly agree with the statement, but then the author's answer was to reinvent HTML with doodads.

I was hoping this would be a call for a higher order of expression which could be interpreted by lower order frameworks, but alas. I think the author is confusing the technology with the tools. The tools for building interfaces haven't changed a whole lot in the last decade.

</comment><comment><USER10> Why are you open to all manners of options except language option? I don't think you can call GUI development broken when you set your own broken parameters. Consider broadening your options. Now having said that, GUI development is broken, but that Qt isn't even mentioned makes this blog post broken. At least prepend "Cross-Language" or append "in My Language" to the title.

</comment><comment><USER11> >And I wanted to do it in OCaml

He glances over that part...

Also, not sure why he is fixed on JSON. There are plenty of GUI libraries that use XML, why doesn't he use one of those (and therefore not use OCaml).

Misleading, clickbait title and low quality, narrow content. It's a shame.

</comment><comment><USER12> >This afternoon I sat down to write a mini text editor.

i understand reinventing wheels is both fun and educational and grants a deeper understanding of wheels in general, but the way that statement reads is... over confident. the idea that any nontrival standard tool for software developers can be written in an afternoon, presumably from sratch, starting cold, not even done with preliminary researche (as evidenced by the rest of the article), is just silly.

>I wanted this to be easy.

has the author ever programmed anything at all these things are never "easy" just "easier than once thought", which is rare, and "inexplicably more difficult and obtuse, and motivation enough that time is better spent on other projects" or somewhere in between.

</comment><comment><USER13> Was there ever a more productive GUI programming experience than Delphi? It's been more than twelve years since I used it (or developed on Windows for that matter), but it was so powerful and fast.

<comment><USER14> I thought Delphi was mostly dead. I saw a job listing recently and thought it would be kind of cool to go back to it. But when I checked the Tiobe index it's still quite popular at number 11, notably it's above Swift and Objective-C, so apparently it's far from dead.

<comment><USER15> It isn't dead, but it should be: I sometimes support legacy Delphi code.

We use the XE7 version of the IDE, which is excruciatingly slow on a laptop with an i7 7700HQ processor, fast nVME SSD, and 32GB RAM. Oh, the IDE is 32 bit so it runs out of memory. The IDE also crashes a lot (I have never heard of a stable release of any version of Delphi). Our codebase still compiles on Delphi 7 (from 2002) because it is a _better_ developer experience than thier modern versions...

Trying to find good components was easy in 2002, but it can be impossible now. All the good component developers moved on to more profitable targets. You can't find good open source components because no developer can afford the annual costs to get new versions of the compiler and compile components.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I believe it is JSON what is broken.

I do not understand the article at all. We created our own GUI development using Dear IMGUI. It is probably the simplest GUI in the world. For text we use our own rasterizer library.

But it comes at a price: It just continuously draws the screen, 60 times per second, which makes the battery of laptops last very little.

Now our software uses a fork of Dear Imgui that does not update the screen but just when necessary.

Before Dear Imgui, we tried Qt, GTK, Web, Win32. Making your own widgets with hardware accelerated fonts that you control is extremely complicated in those GUIs.

<comment><USER17> Can I ask how your approach deals with accessibility?

<comment><USER18> It doesn't

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> VSCode isn't clunky. So is Atom clunky because webkit or because implementation?

I think you missed the target on dismissing the first option... i.e there's a reason html/css/js is the most popular - as in popularity is a good objective median.

To get to the point, use electron with jsonSchema and a form builder of choice (I suggest Vue) but React and Angular could suffice depending on how much functionality your text editor needs.

Point is, your "answer" is pretty much reinventing jsonSchema in Python.

<comment><USER20> > a form builder of choice (I suggest Vue)

Any particular reasoning for this?

<comment><USER19> OP appears to be a polyglot with a foundation lower in the stack (e.g frameBuffer, X, etc) ... thus (as has been admitted) React et al are too abstracted from what is considered "familiar" web dev.

Vue gives you the binding, flow and components - whilst maintaining a closer relevance to what can be considered "familiar"... and subsequently a good introduction for someone who rejects web at first, yet introduces how a Text Editor can actually he built in a day using the principles shared by all modern web frameworks.

Or something like that... :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> So replace HTML with the JSON?

out({command: "new_text_box", border: "grey", content: "hi there!"})

looks a lot like

hi there!

The browser is complicated, because its an abstraction that runs in almost every modern environment. Once WASM gets document bindings, writing web code will become language agnostics.

Also how are you going to bind interactions with the UI? I see a global event listener, but that would become unmanageable.

<comment><USER22> The real problem with the "browser" is how bad they are at being the same as each other.

<comment><USER23> He didn't say he needed it to work further than on localhost. Especially for the 'simple' use case, the browsers will work close enough to the same.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Sounds like QML, which even looks slightly like JSON if you squint at it right. Bonus (depending on your views) points: you can even use javascript in it.

<comment><USER25> QML is amazing.

Every time I make a change in my QML based photo editor I marvel at how easy the toolkit has made it.

<comment><USER26> Every QML application I've tried was comparable to Electron in my eyes so far: slow and full of little usability bugs.

This started to be really noticeable for me in the linux world, where QT is already common, but more and more UIs are converted to QML from QtWidgets.

The difference is staggering for me. QML GUIs are also often styled by the authors, which very often break or replace the system theme, something I hate.

<comment><USER25> I'll admit to completely ignoring the system theme, but that's absolutely standard practice among photo editing software like RawTherapee, darktable, and proprietary ones like Lightroom and Capture One.

As far as slow, no way. Instant startup, instant everything, no memory leaks. I've left my editor running for multiple weeks straight with no issues.

Usability bugs? Yes, there's basically one: scrolling. I've hacked together my own momentum scrolling system but I'm not happy with it. At least it's better than scrolling in KDE Plasma native applications, though.

<comment><USER26> RawTherapee has the option to use the system theme, and I'm quite grateful for that.

darktable on the other hand has basically one dark theme only which _also_ shows stupid UI mistakes as black-overscroll-on-black-background in all lists and fixed font size. If there is ONE setting you have to keep, is the FONT SIZE in the system theme!

You're excluding many more issues from here. Click on a scollbar and drag outside: very often the scrollbar doesn't release when the mouse button is depressed, though styling and custom events play a role. QML is not immune to a _lot_ of quirks in highdpi, most of which are completely absent in QtWidgets. In detail, font rendering (hinting) in QML in GL contextes is basically broken.

The whole UI is perceptibly laggier as a whole. I'm a programmer myself. As a programmer I feel ambivalent, but as an user, I hate it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I remember dabbling with Visual Basic 5.0 as a teenager. It was pure godsend and bliss compared to turbo basic (executables !). I never found glade, xul and other tech stack as easy to use and get into (flash mx 2004 was cool as well but not as much because the web).

</comment><comment><USER28> You mean this:

        do while .t.
                   @ 22,  1 clear to 22, 78
                   @ 22, 26 say 'Ready to Print ? <Y/N> ' get cPType pict '!' ;
                           valid ( cPType = 'Y' .or. cPType = 'N' .or. cPType= 'H')
                   read
                   if cPType = 'N'
                      exit
                   elseif cPType = 'H'
                      jAlert( ';Help on Print Formats - Press :                     ;;' + ;
                              '     Y for normal bill without leaving no blank lines;' + ;
                              '     N for aborting bill print                       ;' + ;
                              ';' + ;
                              '     L for Large bill covering an A4 size paper'
                              )
                      loop
                   endif
                   invoice_print( cPType )
                   exit
        enddo

This piece of code executes linearly, there are no events to listen for and so no callbacks. There are only keyboard events that occur at specific times in the program's execution. No mouse events that'd have generated events that you'll need an asynchronous model of the program to deal with. And this screen is fixed size - 24 lines and 80 columns; it has 16 colors: red, green, blue, yellow, and the rest. The window doesn't resize nor the screen size ever change.

Modern GUI however has events and has to work on devices with all sorts of resolutions, and they support mouse and asynchronous execution. The program model is vastly more complex, and although the good old days were really really nice, they would probably never be back.

<comment><USER29> Is that ... Fortran?

<comment><USER28> It is CA-Clipper (formerly Nantucket Clipper). It falls in the xBase family of 4GL languages. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBase](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XBase)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> The "procedural JSON to screen" sounds like a reinvention of either Display PostScript, or more closely Tcl/Tk.

[https://stackoverflow.com/questions/166231/tcl-tk- examples](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/166231/tcl-tk-examples)

(also, the author hasn't reviewed any of the Windows approaches to this; drawing up a quick GUI in Visual Studio and C# is pretty easy)

</comment><comment><USER30> It's not a lot to look at and I'm deliberately working on it slowly, but if anyone finds my goals compelling and wants to jump in my email is in my profile:

[https://github.com/sircmpwn/chopsui](https://github.com/sircmpwn/chopsui)

I plan on finishing up the boring parts in the next few weeks, then the exciting stuff begins.

</comment><comment><USER31> It amuses me that, for all its "brokenness," OP lists 5 workable solutions and proposes 1 non-solution. The comments here propose at least one other workable solution (Dear ImGui) that's new to me and looks very nice!

I am more enthusiastic about the future of GUI development than ever before. ;-)

<comment><USER32> Everyone should use whatever GlassWire uses. Can't remember now what it was. The creator answered that question here on HN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I mean, sure, if all you want is a couple UI elements and zero control over how they look or their layout, most existing GUI toolkits are _incredibly_ over-complicated.

But you only want those basics for, like, a minute or two. Or to show a couple buttons and nothing else. Then you realize how incredibly restricting that is, and how impossible it is to make something _nice_ and not just _functional_ , and you discover the problem is bigger than you thought it was.

Shoes gets pretty close perhaps? [http://shoesrb.com/](http://shoesrb.com/) But even a tiny glance will show it's _vastly_ more complicated than the proposed API here, because the proposed API is so inadequate you can't even say "put X near Y".

</comment><comment><USER18> GUI development is broken [for ocaml]

A rather disingenuous omission by the author.

<comment><USER34> Why should horrible low-level or platform-specific languages be our only options for building GUIs?

<comment><USER35> What do you call Python, JavaScript, Java, or C#?

<comment><USER34> Python isn't first-class in any GUI framework IIRC (although Qt for Python may change this). JavaScript and C#, with regards to GUI, are single-platform languages (I've never seen a UI built with Node and no browser, and I don't see a good way to build a Linux GUI in C# that is actively maintained). That leaves Java, which I will concede, even though Java isn't first-class on any platform except Android.

<comment><USER36> Mono? Xamarin?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> > I wanted this to be easy.

Famous last words :P

<comment><USER37> Yeah, this is just simple naivete. I do agree with the author's premise that "GUI development is broken" but certainly not because I can't rip out a "text editor" in a couple hours. Things that seem simple tend to have the worst problems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> > What, I've just got to link to C libraries and write the bindings myself? > This seems a bit ridiculous.

I think it's a good scenario: it seems that in most cases available libraries don't expose a C API at all.

I had thoughts similar to the article's conclusion, and even a prototype of a similar GUI (stdin/stdout, s-expressions), but then decided that a subset of HTML (or XUL, as mentioned in another comment, though not sure how reusable libxul is, and it seems pretty close to a full web browser with its scripts and events) would be fine, though didn't get to trying it out. Currently GTK seems usable to me, even if imperfect.

</comment><comment><USER38> You know that GUI programming is fucked -- at least on Linux -- when it's 2018 and the fastest route from zero to working UI is _still_ Tcl/Tk.

<comment><USER39> 20 lines of C looks pretty simple to me: [http://www.levien.com/gimp/hello.html](http://www.levien.com/gimp/hello.html)

If C is too hard maybe you want c#: [http://www.mono- project.com/docs/gui/gtksharp/hello-world/](http://www.mono- project.com/docs/gui/gtksharp/hello-world/)

<comment><USER38> That's not bad. Fair cop: Gtk is pretty okay for a C API.

Here it is in Tcl:

        pack [button .b -text "Hello world" -command {echo "Hello, world!"; exit}]

Now you know what I mean when I said Tcl/Tk was "the fastest" way to get a GUI up. Especially when you consider that wish also functions as a REPL at which you can test your ideas right away with no compile step.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> > By far the most widely used graphics toolkit in history is HTML and CSS. ... > And it's definitely the easiest option. It's the first thing I learned as a > programmer

And this is where we are. A huge number of today developers, maybe even majority, are so accustomed to web programming that it's the first thing that comes to their minds.

<comment><USER41> Because there aren't any alternatives that are as easy to use and understand. QML could be if it was available for any language other than C++. Ditto with Lazarus and Pascal. I hear XAML WPF isn't bad, but it strikes me as having the same limitations Adobe Flex had (performance). People here love to suggest GTK, but I've never used a GTK app that didn't look like a Java swing app straight out of the 90s.

Nuklear looks promising if you don't care about "native look and feel". In this age of "web swallowing the world", I don't think I care about native look and feel. Then again, maybe the native look and feel on windows and linux just sucks. All of the gorgeous, yet still fast apps are for the Mac and iOS ecosystems and it isn't because their tooling or native GUI APIs are so much better than everybody else's.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I love when people try to reinvent stuff like html, but with JSON! Like html somehow would be better with JSON? If he didn't want to use GTK, nor HTML, then he could have just gone with Qt Quick. Qt Quick offers a declarative GUI, it even looks almost like JSON. What a waste of an article.

</comment><comment><USER43> What about termbox, it's a good enough abstraction for coding application for the terminal.

<comment><USER44> the author specifically excluded cli editors for what seamed to be reasonable reasons.

<comment><USER45> I must have missed the reasonable reasons. All I saw was:

1\. Terminal emulators have too many LOC (how many LOC does cairo, Xlib, Chrome, or GTK have?)

2\. Oh noes, you have to check for control codes in your text. (do you want to use a text editor that doesn't?)

<comment><USER43> 2\. is fixed by termbox

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> > And I wanted to do it in OCaml.

That's interesting. If you decided to use Lazarus instead, you'd have the project finished sooner that you wrote the blog post.

The clickbait title is plain wrong: GUI development can be easy and fun, depending on what toolset you choose.

<comment><USER41> Care to share same examples?

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Sounds like he wants something like Jasonette[0].

[0] [https://jasonette.com/](https://jasonette.com/)

</comment><comment><USER47> GUI development isn't broken, you're just trying to build a skyscraper with sand.

</comment><comment><USER48> If you remove the OCaml requirement, everything described can be done with Lazarus [1] which even comes with a very powerful code editing control/widget. In fact i made a simple IDE [2] for my LIL scripting language [3] using Lazarus in a couple of days (which also supported remote execution for LIL code so i can run and update code while my game engine is running, inspired by an article about how Naughty Dog used Lisp for Jax and Daxter - except i use LIL, which is closer to Tcl, instead of Lisp).

Lazarus doesn't have a simple small framework, if anything it is much bigger than Gtk, but it is very simple to start with and you can ignore most of it. If you want to see how it is to use it, recently i recorded a video making a simple game with it under Linux [4] (there are a few comments in a text editor in the first 6-7 minutes but after that i do not have any sort of comments). If you want something with more GUI controls (the game really uses just a painting control), i also have an older video making a tilemap editor [5].

Now to make a disclaimer: IMO both Lazarus and Free Pascal (the language used by Lazarus) are a bit messy and i'm not presenting them as examples of the perfect development environment. _However_ Lazarus is both very powerful and very simple to use, to the point that i consider it by far the best and easiest way to create GUI desktop applications (the only closest alternative is old versions of Delphi before it became a bloated mess - but even if the new versions weren't bloated, i'd still not recommend them because of their ridiculous price, the fact that VCL only supports Windows and above all the DRM they have - i remember reading complaints from users that they had to use cracks so that they can use their highly expensive software in their own laptop, which is absurd IMO). It has warts but they are well worth it.

My biggest issue with Lazarus is that it seems that the Gtk3 backend is going to become the default one on Linux in the future and as a user i dislike everything about Gtk3 (and Qt5 but to a lesser extent).

[1] [http://www.lazarus-ide.org/](http://www.lazarus-ide.org/)

[2] [https://i.imgur.com/tCd64Wh.png](https://i.imgur.com/tCd64Wh.png)

[3] [http://runtimeterror.com/rep/lil](http://runtimeterror.com/rep/lil)

[4] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_01Xhd2EJM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_01Xhd2EJM)

[5] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3JgeIUo1X0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3JgeIUo1X0)

</comment><comment><USER49> Apple has a pretty good approach.</comment>


An online tool to build simple tables and test SQL statements - <AUTHOR> http://ideone.com/clone/W4ePc

<comment><AUTHOR> <http://bit.ly/13wIW3c> the source and some discussion (stackoverflow.com)</comment>


Andrei Alexandrescu IAMA at reddit - <AUTHOR> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nl9at/i_am_a_member_of_facebooks_hhvm_team_a_c_and_d/

<comment><USER2> So this is interesting:

> Keith Adams has been gracious enough to run a "wc -l" on our main codebases > just now. Fresh data! We're roughly in the 70/30 area for PHP/C++. Both > codebases have grown a lot in absolute numbers since I joined, and most > interestingly the ratio was somewhere like 90/10 four years ago. We've > scaled up a lot since then, hence the increased emphasis on infrastructure.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nl9at/i_am_a_member_o...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nl9at/i_am_a_member_of_facebooks_hhvm_team_a_c_and_d/ccjlvoq)</comment>


Show HN: ReadRatio – Real time web analytics for blogs - <AUTHOR> https://readratio.com/?showhn

<comment><USER2> Congrats and good luck. I thought about building something similar about a year ago. It's an interesting and petty simple test for a bit more accurate tracking of reading. Never thought about trying to monetize it like this, however, so I'll be paying attention to how you do.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nice job on this. This is a feature that expensive enterprise products have, but almost everyone should use something like this. Keep going!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!</comment></comment>


Ancient Lost Continent Discovered in Indian Ocean - <AUTHOR> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/2/130225-microcontinent-earth-mauritius-geology-science/ <comment><AUTHOR> for people interested in reading original paper [https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1971GeoJ...24..437M/abstra...](https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1971GeoJ...24..437M/abstract)

</comment><comment><USER2> discovered seven years ago, to clarify.

also

> estimate that the lost microcontinent [...] was about a quarter of the size > of Madagascar.

that's a wild definition of a continent!

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a piece of a big puzzle. so I believe this is gonna lead to bigger discoveries.

"that's a wild definition of a continent! " even i was wondering</comment></comment>


Chrome user? Want to help out an intrepid young researcher? - <AUTHOR>

So I'm doing a research project on browser usage for a class on designing CS experiments, and I was hoping that if you were so inclined you'd download a Chrome extension (code-named "honeypot") to help collect some usage data for me and help me out. The basic thrust of said research is to look into some of the limitations of the current window/tab paradigm as an imperfect mapping on the way that we try to / would like to use our browsers. While data sources such as Mozilla's test pilot (https://testpilot.mozillalabs.com/) et al. (or even just dumps of Chrome's history) are certainly helpful, they don't quite record the data I'm looking for.
What I'm recording is tab and window usage over time, along with the urls visited and a snapshot of the text on the page (more specifically, the term frequencies of the text) in order to be able to do higher-resolution comparisons (such as cosine similarity) between documents in and across browsing sessions. All this data is anonymized before it's even sent to me, so I don't have any direct way (nor, frankly, any desire :) to figure out who you are.
Link to more info, download instructions, and actual download: http://keegansawesomecs303project.posterous.com/the-chrome-extension-honeypot
tl;dr - I did a Chrome Extension for a project for a CS class, and I'm running a bit behind, so I need help from the Hackernews crowd to bail me out and get me lots of data-- I know a website that could help with that ;). <comment><AUTHOR> Actual download link: [http://keegansawesomecs303project.posterous.com/the- chrome-e...](http://keegansawesomecs303project.posterous.com/the-chrome- extension-honeypot)

Also, if anyone has any suggestions on what I should look into, or other cool data sources please let me know! :)

<comment><USER2> Yeah, suggestion, instead of pussyfooting around (whether you mean to or not), use concrete language about privacy. Yeah, yeah, I don't 'plan' to sell any of my user data either, but nobody (especially the law) cares about my wishy- washy 'plans'.

Tell me in no uncertain terms that you won't ever manually view the urls, won't ever manually view the page snapshots, and won't ever publish that individual data without having all parties involved agree to the same terms.

<comment><AUTHOR> ...ok. Thanks for the suggestion. I certainly don't mean to indicate anything other than being serious about user privacy. I'm sorry that I come across as being cavalier-- I just meant to show both that I will be the only person who ever has control of this data, for all of eternity, and that on top of that it's unclear to me what the magnitude of the absolute worst case scenario is: even assuming it's possible to find out who one of the users actually is (which, as I said earlier, I will be doing under no circumstances), about all I can say is that I know what URLs they visited between yesterday and Friday morning.

But yeah-- I will at no point manually read more than an incidental number of any particular user's history entries and snapshots (by incidental I mean that if I observe some sort of pattern I will probably look at the urls in the pattern, but not even look at the rest of the user's data stream other than via algorithm).

I will update the wording of the blog right now-- thanks for the concern. I don't want people to not download it because they think I'm trying to do something sketchy.</comment></comment></comment>


Gov. Newsom should suspend Assembly Bill 5 amid coronavirus - <AUTHOR> https://www.ocregister.com/2020/03/18/suspend-assembly-bill-5/ <comment><USER2> It is a bad law and should never have been passed. However, the coronavirus has nothing to do with a bad law. It will probably make matters worse. But a bad law should never have been passed in the first place. Maybe we need to live through its consequences to understand the sheer destruction it will cause.</comment>


Building a smart bus booking system similar to taxi - <AUTHOR> https://blog.maddevs.io/building-new-public-transport-habits-in-vietnam-with-godee-f7c4da25efc5 <comment><USER2> That is amazing!!!! We need it so much over here!</comment>


Hasbro Finally Drops Scrabulous Suit - <AUTHOR> http://techdirt.com/articles/20081215/1158293124.shtml <comment><USER2> This is stupid. Hasbro largely did the right thing. They protected their brand, and the right to make money off of it online. There's nothing but speculation here as to Scrabulous moving copies of their real world product, or their "boycott" amounting to anything but a couple dozen boards not sold.

Perhaps they should have licensed Scrabulous rather than trying to build their own, but gaining control over their brand online was the right thing to do.

</comment><comment><USER3> I am blatantly not a lawyer but from my understanding you can not patent rules to a game. So the clever thing to do would be implementing a "word game engine" which allows users to upload their rules to it and share those rules, if they happen to be scrabble-esque..? Are you responsible for all user content in that situation? (serious question)

<comment><USER4> It's sort of a big legal crazy gray area full of pitfalls and madness. I am far from a laywer, but it appears that if you intentionally turn a blind eye towards the user generated content UNTIL there is a complaint, ract with an immediate and complete takedown, then it seems OK. Maybe? Who knows?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Let's hope this never happens again... Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children.</comment>


Laptop explodes while charging at Letchworth business - <AUTHOR> http://www.thecomet.net/news/moment-laptop-explodes-while-charging-in-letchworth-1-5447963 <comment><USER2> > _Now Steve wants to warn the public about the dangers of LiPo batteries if > left on charge for a substantial amount of time._

I've also occasionally heard recommendations from people to not leave devices charging because it may potentially wear out the battery prematurely. This may be a myth. But I always wonder -- why would the charging circuit not moderate the charging and mitigate such risks? Why should I as a user be responsible for providing just the right amount of charging?

<comment><USER3> > the dangers of LiPo batteries

I think it's Li-Ion batteries in laptops, not LiPo.

LiPos have a tendency to degas/explode unexpectedly even when the charger is good.

Multicopter/drones use LiPo batteries and there are multiple horror stories of pilots having their house destroyed. We have now learned to store them in special fireproof bags/containers even when not charging, never charge them unattended, always have a fire extinguisher near the charging station, etc.

BTW I see a phantom hanging on the wall... Maybe he tried to charge the laptop battery with the LiPo charger?

<comment><USER4> I absolutely loathe the degree to which manufacturers will embed LiPo's into just about everything including wearables without disclosing the fact. If you're clever about this sort of stuff and see a certain form factor coupled with larger than expected operating times you can infer the presence of LiPo's with some accuracy but your average consumer doesn't stand a chance and has no idea what the difference between all these different battery chemistries is in the first place and what the implications are.

<comment><USER5> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery) or LiFePO4 has much better safety properties. Any device sold to consumers should be required to have temperature monitoring, over voltage and over current protection. If it fails any onboard safety check it should render itself inoperable.

<comment><USER4> That sounds like a good development. I'm especially concerned about stuff worn against the body (earbuds, sports wearables, watches, cellphones). Laptops and tablets are also potentially dangerous but it's not as if every fuck up will immediately lead to injury.

<comment><USER6> I review flashlights and headlamps as a hobby. Many modern high-powered ones use removable Li-ion cells, most commonly 18650 size.

Temperature monitoring has become very common. The primary heat source is almost always the LED, not the battery, but it would be sufficient to detect a battery nearing thermal runaway. Low-voltage protection is common, but sometimes only a warning blink rather than a hard cutoff based on the idea that leaving the user in the dark might be worse than damaging a battery.

Some models have onboard charging, most often through MicroUSB. Correctly charging a single Li-ion cell is not difficult, and I haven't seen one get it seriously wrong yet.

LiFePO4 has seen a little use, but is not popular due to its much lower energy density. I suspect this has kept it out of other portable devices as well since users always seem to want longer runtime in ever smaller devices.

<comment><USER7> It was popular for pro power tools for a while. Those get a lot of abuse, and people are constantly changing battery packs so they max out on charging cycles. DeWalt used LiFePO4 from A123 Systems. But they seem to have given that up.

<comment><USER8> I honestly wonder why. I developed a portable small-quantity project a few years ago and designed in a 20AH LiFePO4 battery pack; it seemed like the only sane choice. The cost was slightly higher and density was slightly lower, but the difference was less than 10%. Not having to be concerned with battery failure modes was a huge advantage. But those factors must be different at larger scales; the largest scale I can think of where density matters would be for a commercial electric 18-wheeler tractor; what chemistry do those use?

<comment><USER7> Price. Ordinary lithium-ion batteries have dropped in price due to volume production and competition. LiFePO4, not so much.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> How often does this happen? This is the first time I've ever heard of it, and apparently it's uncommon enough to make the news and subsequently the HN front page.

Not battery fires in general, like I've heard/seen enough Youtube videos about quadcopter LiPos, and the Samsung Note 7 or whatever it was, but laptop batteries specifically. There's enough space to build safety in, and they don't fly around at high speeds like quadcopters.

The owner of course gives the advice of always unplugging laptops when you're not there and stuff, but I'd say the same if it was my office which burned down (hindsight bias). It's beneficial for battery makers to be slim on safety margins because then you can squeeze more juice into it, but as far as I know there's still lots of safety features on modern Li-ion/LiPo batteries, and this seems like either a one-in-a-billion or a (factory) defect.

<comment><USER10> Most thicker laptops run on 18650 cells, which are mechanically quite resilient. They almost always use unprotected cells with a Uchiya cutoff and a dedicated BMS with some fusing and thermal, voltage and current monitors.

No external mechanisms can help with issues originating within a cell (mechanical damage etc.), which methinks is a more common cause of catastrophic failures.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I don't know if having it off the charger will necessarily prevent issues. I had an old ~2010 Macbook Pro battery pack that stopped taking a charge, but which I decided to keep around because I thought I might see if it was possible to replace the cells. Kind of forgot about it, so it sat on a desktop for maybe a year, and then I tossed it in a closet maybe a year ago. While cleaning in there recently, I found this:

[https://my.mixtape.moe/kceuko.jpg](https://my.mixtape.moe/kceuko.jpg) [https://my.mixtape.moe/zbvjdu.jpg](https://my.mixtape.moe/zbvjdu.jpg)

It was in a closed ziploc bag, which showed no evidence of high heat, but kind of disturbing in that I assumed after a year of sitting it would have fully discharged.

<comment><USER12> This is not unexpected for LiPo batteries. The anode in LiPo battery packs degrades overtime and outgasses oxygen which is why the packs puff up. This by itself won't cause an explosion but if you puncture the pack and expose it to water or flame you might get some fireworks.

<comment><USER11> That's interesting, I assumed the reaction was rapid but I didn't see it happen. It's not obvious in the pics, but 2 stacked cells in the pack swelled, so I assumed it involved an electrical issue.

Related question - best way to safely dispose of old LiPo batteries? I don't want to just toss it in the regular trash (for one thing, might ignite in there.)

<comment><USER13> I.r.o. the latter question, ask the local recycling company.

Batteries are a fire hazard and a heavy pollutant if thrown in the regular trash, but most of the raw materials can be recycled if disposed of properly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> A friend was the chief fire marshall for a very large (1.8 million inhabitants) European city. At night he would go through all the rooms and unplug each and every charger.

He's seen so many fires and has gone to the root cause of them that he sees chargers and batteries as incendiary devices, not consumer electronics.

I'll send this video to him, not that he needs more examples but it is quite striking how fast this goes from 'laptop charging on a desk' to 'office on fire' and what little if any warning there was that this was about to happen.

<comment><USER14> Then, be extra super wary about any batteries near christmas trees.

(Like, if you pick _one_ takeaway from this and change _one_ thing about your life, maybe that one?)

<comment><USER15> That's why artificial christmas trees are legitimately safer. If people insist on a real tree then keep it well watered until you throw it away, the dry trees catch fire easier and faster.

I purchased an artificial in no small part for the safety aspect. I do miss the smell though.

<comment><USER16> "Easier and faster" is an understatement: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u5jCPHmevE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u5jCPHmevE)

That comparison video was by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, from not long before Trump neutered them ([http://thehill.com/opinion/white- house/375273-trump-is-decim...](http://thehill.com/opinion/white- house/375273-trump-is-decimating-the-consumer-product-safety-commission)).

<comment><USER17> Holy crap, wow! The difference between dry and wet trees is incredibly stark.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > _" He only decided to leave it on charge when he unplugged it and it turned > off immediately."_

Sounds like the first warning sign that something was going wrong; if it wasn't dead prior, I would have been wary of keeping it on charge...20/20 I guess

<comment><USER19> Indeed. The battery was bad and wouldn't hold charge, but the charging circuitry probably would still try and charge the battery and it eventually, catastrophically failed. Owner is lucky they were not sitting there at the time.

If your battery doesn't hold a charge anymore, don't keep it plugged in. There should probably be a PSA for battery handling at this point.

<comment><USER20> Thanks for this! My partner's laptop has started giving battery-related warnings and I - even as someone vaguely technical - hadn't really considered it might become actively dangerous.

If I'm totally honest, I simply and somewhat cynically figured it was a ruse by the manufacturer to bilk some money from us on an unneeded replacement, given its software's likely counting daysSincePurchase!

<comment><USER21> Modern lithium-ion batteries have a really nice voltage regulator and smart charger embedded within which can estimate cell wear, count charge/discharge cycles, and tell you how much absolute charge is remaining.

It's at least possible for the manufacturer to be using this information instead of simply counting the hours.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLUD41f15U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwLUD41f15U)

Lithium dendrite growth, the (mostly not understood) cause of the battery catching fire.

</comment><comment><USER23> This isn't really a surprise. Most modern battery tech has a hell of a lot of energy in it which is what we desire to support long run times. It only takes a manufacturing error or some physical damage to let all that out pretty sharpish. This is usually a violent incendiary process on LiPo cells.

I doubt the battery in question was overcharged or this was because it was left on charge, but because it was faulty or damaged.

This one is a relatively small one: [https://youtu.be/bqcX1AjdxSw](https://youtu.be/bqcX1AjdxSw)

</comment><comment><USER24> Looks like my general policy of never charging batteries _on_ something flammable is going to have to be modified to not charging batteries _near_ something flammable.

Like, what the heck, there were long jets of burning stuff spurting out of the battery. It was like it was designed to light the place on fire on a failure.

<comment><USER25> I was helping my mom deal with her phone that was injured in a crushing accident and treated the damn thing like a hazard (stuck it outside on the driveway in a water resistant container to wait to go to the store the next day).

I was quite surprised that the employees didn't think anything of the potential for a damaged battery.

<comment><USER26> my 2 cents: they never had to deal with battery venting into fire. when that happens to you once, you don't even think twice about precautions

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Wow, with video and everything. This was a lot scarier than I expected.

</comment><comment><USER28> There's a lot of paper underneath that charging laptop.

<comment><USER29> I also didn't see a sprinkler on the roof go off. I thought that was common in most offices... I could be wrong.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Hm. I'm keen to get an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) so that I can self- host more services from home, but I'm extremely worried about the fire-risk.

I'm afraid I know little about battery construction to know whether this is a valid concern, or what specifications/designs to look for. Do any of the battery experts of this thread have any advice?

<comment><USER31> All UPS'es (unless things have changed) use sealed lead-acid batteries.

Not the same battery chemistry, so much reduced (if nearly zero) fire risk from a UPS.

<comment><USER32> There are some out there, but not at the commercial/industrial level. Like you said, higher risk along with added shipping cost keeps them out of the mainstream. Also the need for lightweight UPS systems for servers is pretty low. One bad thing if a lead battery is involved in a fire is the spreading of lead contamination, that's not cheap to clean up, but it's low probability.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I came into work about two weeks ago and my HP laptop felt and smelled like it was on fire(it wasn't). It wouldn't turn on though, completely fried. I wonder if something similar would have happened if I hadn't showed up at that time.

</comment><comment><USER34> I have a Toshiba laptop that has the uptime of an average server. It was part of their Qosmio line, the gaming laptops of their day, and weighed about ten pounds making it difficult to lug, so the thing has pretty much been on and plugged in nonstop since 2010 or so. It reboots maybe once every two months to complete Windows 7 updates.

Never had a problem with it. Not sure if batteries are just getting worse or if it's a result of the trend of trying to make things thinner-and-lighter such that there's not room for the battery to expand as it's likely to do over time without exploding.

</comment><comment><USER35> There are various products that protect against this.

Search for "battery explosion fire containment bag"

</comment><comment><USER36> It's funny that it's an HP (they have a history of over-heating). However, while batteries combusting are never nice, this is hardly an explosion.

<comment><USER9> > they have a history of over-heating

Do you know of any laptop brand with products <$1k which never had an overheating problem?

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Crap. I have a 2018 HP Envy x360 the battery is very small only 43Wh it seems like it always needs to be charged that just ups the risk.

</comment><comment><USER38> A fire, not a bomb.

<comment><USER4> Check the video. It starts off as a fire, then there is a significant bang and pieces spray all over the room.

<comment><USER39> That's still deflagration and not detonation. Don't get me wrong, understand that rapid thermal decomposition of a battery strongly resembles an explosion, but it isn't one. Scary, dangerous, but only in terms of burns and shrapnel, no shockwave is produced.

<comment><USER4> I am fairly sure the distinction is lost on the general public, and I am also fairly sure that to all intents and purposes it will not make a difference. When people plug in a laptop and it goes _bang_ and sprays burning pieces all over the room they will be more than happy to call it an explosion (see title of TFA) even if the scientist in you does not see one.

Also, I did not see a barometer in the footage and if expanding gas did not propel those pieces of shrapnel outwards I wonder what did. So maybe there was a shockwave, just not a very large one and that was probably mostly due to the confinement of the battery not being very strong.

If there is one way to turn a small bang into a bigger one it is by confining the gas a little longer by using a stronger package.

<comment><USER40> First I just want to say that I agree with you, that was an explosion; explosion and detonation aren't necessarily the same thing. Loud noise and rapidly expanding gas = explosion. One correction though, which is that a shockwave is supersonic, and just judging by the fact that burning fragments were on the floor and not punching through the wall, I'll guess it wasn't supersonic.

Still an explosion!

<comment><USER4> Ah I wasn't aware of that distinction, I thought a shockwave was any sudden rise and subsequent fall in pressure. Learn a new thing every day, thank you!

<comment><USER40> My pleasure, and by the way, I really enjoy your blog. You have an interesting perspective and you write very well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> That HP laptop has an apple on it.

<comment><USER42> No, it does not, that's an HP logo.

<comment><USER43> Right, something like [https://brain-images- ssl.cdn.dixons.com/6/3/10169036/u_10169...](https://brain-images- ssl.cdn.dixons.com/6/3/10169036/u_10169036.jpg)

<comment><USER41> Oh, that was stupid :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> IT tech here. I recently had a Dell laptop I unboxed, plugged in CAT5 and power then turned on. Walked away for 5 mins. Came back into my office and smoke was billowing out from the center of the keyboard! I yanked out the power adapter and kicked the fucker into a plastic box and RAN it to the bathroom where I threw it into a sink and waited. It didn't full on combust but the keyboard was melted and so was the bottom. Dell didn't want to hear ANY of it. They immediately wanted it sent to them. Manager made me just send it back without complaining further. They replaced the keys and mobo and SENT THE FUCKER back to use. Still singed an all. I should note that we open 10 or 15 new Latitudes a month. THis was the only firebomb we've had.

</comment><comment><USER45> Isn't there slight hint of insurance fraud odor in this story?

</comment><comment><USER46> I bet they turned on some chrome://flags ;)

</comment><comment><USER47> Initially I saw an Apple logo and was genuinely surprised, but after realizing it was an HP logo I was much less so.

It would be really interesting to see what each company does to protect the health of batteries. I bet there's a huge difference between them.

<comment><USER48> Given the age of the laptop, 2014, I would be very surprised if this was the original battery. And, if replaced, surprised if it was not the cheapest option off eBay. OEM batteries are surprisingly difficult to source for many laptops after a few years (sometimes if you don't order it with the laptop upfront, you're sol), not to mention priced 3-5x higher than no-name replacements.

That being said, I have bought a lot of no-names over the years and haven't had even so much as an abnormally hot one yet. More often they just perform at 3/4ish capacity of the new "real" one.

<comment><USER21> I've stopped buying OEM batteries from anyone but the manufacturer because of the sheer quantity of counterfeits I've gotten off of Amazon.

<comment><USER49> Agreed, same for eBay. The useless rubbish they push is just insane. I now look for OEM from reputable vendors or Anker if they make it for the device.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Anyone else getting calendar spam? - <AUTHOR> I haven't seen this before and started getting events being automatically added to my Gmail calendar without receiving any associated emails that contain them.
Screenshots here https://www.dropbox.com/s/5wrb0f1du6gbpcw/Screenshot%202016-11-25%2016.27.21.png?dl=0 and https://www.dropbox.com/s/syc0ivruqmo3ifg/File%20Nov%2025%2C%204%2030%2000%20PM.png?dl=0.
Calendar item details here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0f22kbxjlgje5d8/File%20Nov%2025%2C%204%2034%2043%20PM.png?dl=0
I'm on macOS Sierra and iOS. <comment><USER2> I've gotten this too. Google iCloud calendar spam. I'm guessing your Gmail calendar is linked to your Apple calendar and it's being updated that way.

<comment><AUTHOR> Found this [https://plus.google.com/+RonnieBincer/posts/ec3aZmhNMwg](https://plus.google.com/+RonnieBincer/posts/ec3aZmhNMwg).

Apparently not a new issue.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Edit:

I guess this isn't a new thing but is the first time I've ever seen it. You can change a setting in the Gmail calendar not to automatically accept calendar invites: [https://plus.google.com/+RonnieBincer/posts/ec3aZmhNMwg](https://plus.google.com/+RonnieBincer/posts/ec3aZmhNMwg)

<comment><USER3> I'm getting mine thru iCloud.

Pity there's no way to just delete an event in Calendar, without accepting/declining. Both of those send a notification to the sender.

<comment><USER4> If you create a dummy calendar, you can move the event into it and then delete the calendar as a whole, which doesn't send responses to the originator.

[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/technology/personaltech...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/25/technology/personaltech/fighting- ios-calendar-spam.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I just started getting these as well! For Ray-Ban sunglasses and other nonsense. Happened while I was coding, it's VERY distracting to see event invites pop up. I've disabled calendar syncing to my phone from my gmail for now.

<comment><USER6> Yep, I got the rayban one yesterday.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Yes:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5etop4/calendar_even...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5etop4/calendar_event_spam/)

</comment><comment><USER8> OSXDaily has an article about it too. seems they've been getting a bunch. almost all of them 'ray ban' and 'oakley' and random chinese characters.

[http://osxdaily.com/2016/11/26/icloud-calendar-spam- invite-s...](http://osxdaily.com/2016/11/26/icloud-calendar-spam-invite-stop/)

spam email is annoying enough. but something like this? ugh.

</comment><comment><USER9> Same here, just noticed today. The iCal event was sent to a bunch of permutations of my email address

</comment><comment><USER10> I've been getting Photos sharing albums spam. Someone sends me requests to accept a shared album and the title of the album is in chinese. Happened twice already.

</comment><comment><USER11> There are settings in most mail and calendar apps to disable auto-adding events from email to your calendar if you don't explicitly accept the invitation.

</comment><comment><USER12> I recently got spam that looked very similar, through a shared iPhoto album invitation. Seems some spammer have gotten quite inventive recently.

</comment><comment><USER6> I just got an alert like this yesterday, did not understand what it was until I saw this.

</comment><comment><USER13> Me too. Ray-Ban ads confirmed

<comment><USER14> Same thing here. From msyeui.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Yep, sunglasses ads

</comment><comment><USER16> yeah, i got it on my iCloud account a couple weeks back.</comment>


One-third of SF Bay Area residents hope to leave soon, poll finds - <AUTHOR> http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_29837065/one-third-bay-area-residents-hope-leave-soon <comment><USER2> I'm one of those in the 1/3rd, currently in the process of moving to the Denver/Boulder area.

I knew on paper the housing would be cheaper, but what's stood out to me is how much less crowded it is:

You can go to stores and find parking, and not wait 15 minutes at the cashier.

You can go to restaurants and actually get a table.

You can make unprotected left turns.

Things are busy during rush hour, but outside of that it's really not bad, and overall it doesn't perpetually feel like the infrastructure is about to collapse under the weight of being so far over-capacity.

There are some things I will miss, but I keep reminding myself that I can fly back to SF cheaply (or anywhere in the US from DEN, really) and hit all of my favorite spots. I am a little afraid I won't be able to find the same quality fruits and vegetables.

When I moved out to the bay area, I thought it would be great to have so many job opportunities and career flexibility. But now as I'm leaving I feel like that wasn't all it's built up to be. Having some options if your employment situation goes south is important, but I don't really need to change jobs every 18 months, or have 5 cold calls from recruiters in my inbox every week. I'd truly rather find a company where I am a good fit and just stay put for a few years.

I also think that is in some ways healthier too: having a bit higher switching cost forces you to learn how to work out some disagreements with your employer and boss, instead of just leaving at the drop of a hat.

<comment><USER3> What does "you can make unprotected left turns" mean?

I'm from the UK so I guess this is the US equivalent of turning right at a set of traffic lights... but what significance does "unprotected" have?

<comment><USER4> Unprotected means there is no traffic light.

Typically it will look like this...

      =             (end)
      </comment></comment></comment><comment>=====     ^  </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>===
             <<       |                 <<
      -   -   -   -   ^   -   -   -   -   -  -
         <<           |                     <<
      </comment><comment></comment><comment>    |  </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>===
       (start)-->->---^  </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>===
           >>                 >>          >>
      -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -
        >>             >>    >>         >>
      </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>====

<comment><USER5> Nice ASCII work! :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm sure the fact that there's an increasing trend of empty Chinese investment properties isn't helping. I grew up in Cupertino, and when I visit my parents there, I'm rather shocked at how downhill the neighborhood has gone in parts. It's crazy that these old 70's tract homes go for 1.5 million. Even more insane is that they're bought and then left empty to go downhill. Literally broken windows and paint falling off. I never used to see that.

Part of the problem with building more housing (outside of SF where transit is decent) is that it means even more people. Lack of effective mass transit means those additional people need to drive everywhere, and there's no space for more roads/freeways. So the roads will just get even more clogged.

Cupertino recently had a developer proposal for 4 large high-density housing developments (condos & some apartments), and of course they were to go into areas that already had ridiculous traffic, and there was no way to facilitate even more drivers.

Until the South Bay gets serious about mass transit, merely adding more housing is only going to make the traffic pain worse.

<comment><USER7> > "I'm sure the fact that there's an increasing trend of empty Chinese > investment properties isn't helping."

This. This. This.

A couple of years ago, I found myself utterly shocked by the price of homes in San Francisco. In a fit of frustration, I fired off a few emails a few random real estate firms in SF, asking one simple question:

"Who the BLEEP can afford these homes?"

You see, I was frustrated. I have a great job, great pay, and yet I can't even come close to buying a home in the city I live in.

The responses I got were jaw dropping, if not infuriating. The #1 purchaser at 2 of the 3 firms I emailed, were foreign investments. Unused, speculative, investments.

I am shocked that land isn't more protected in this state. It seems strange to me, that someone living thousands of miles away, can buy a piece of land with a home on it, thereby shrinking the available market, and driving up the price of housing. This means people who live in, work in, and contribute to, their local community, can't even afford to buy a home there.

The fact that this isn't seen as a full on crisis, confuses and saddens me.

<comment><USER8> What would make it a less interesting investment is if there were a credible threat to add enough supply to devalue it.

That's generally how markets keep prices regulated: if they go up enough, more people jump in to producing the good.

That mechanism is severely broken in the Bay Area, among other popular places in the US.

<comment><USER9> Alternatively, repealing Prop 13, so that property taxes rise with the value. Or increasing property taxes as you get more homes. Both of these would decrease housing prices significantly.

<comment><USER10> Given that the supply of land cannot be increased (the huge omission in GP's argument), repealing Prop 13 is indeed a large part of the solution.

<comment><USER8> Thanks to technology, the supply of land is not really the constraint on housing supply in most of San Francisco, and _especially_ not in most of the Bay Area.

<comment><USER10> What technology are you referring to?

<comment><USER8> At the extreme, these things can hold a lot of people without too much land:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyscraper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyscraper)

But you don't really need those in most places. Simply building 'in' more and up 2/3/4 stories would add a ton of housing in much of the bay area.

<comment><USER10> Those are _very_ expensive to build, approaching $1000/sqft. Also require utilities, transit, and other city services (schools, police, fire, etc).

<comment><USER11> There isn't a cheap way out of SF's situation.

> Also require utilities, transit, and other city services (schools, police, > fire, etc).

High rises don't require those things. _People_ require those things.

<comment><USER12> For some of them, the requirements (for the same number of people and the same overall outcomes) increase with density, so, in a sense, high-rises (or other arrangements which increase density) do require them.

<comment><USER11> I didn't state my point well enough; people are the driving factor here. The density is caused by people wanting to move to SF. High rises are a way to deal with the reality, not providing housing isn't going to solve the problem in any way people are going to be happy with.

<comment><USER12> > The density is caused by people wanting to move to SF. High rises are a way > to deal with the reality, not providing housing isn't going to solve the > problem in any way people are going to be happy with.

Quite likely, just as many (if not more, in both absolute and proportional terms) people in SF will be unhappy with adoption of high-rises as the solution; the lack of availability under the current regime constrains some of the problems because it limits the ability of people to move in regardless of their desire to do so; relieving that constraint -- especially if the problems besides finding places to store the bodies aren't addressed -- just makes all the other problems of density worse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Makes sense. I wrote a piece called "Do millennials have a future in Seattle? Do millennials have a future in any superstar cities?" ([http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a- futu...](http://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in- seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities/)) that focuses on Seattle, but the problems in SF are even worse.

We're seeing decades of parochial land use policies turn into affordability crises in SF and similar cities. Which is why so many people are moving to Texas: [http://time.com/80005/why-texas-is-our- future](http://time.com/80005/why-texas-is-our-future), despite some of Texas's other challenges (like travel and inadequate mass transit).

<comment><USER14> You can have good mass transit or affordable housing, but not both. This sucks.

<comment><USER15> >> "...but not both."

What about Chicago. Way cheaper than New York, and has the second best train system in the country.

<comment><USER16> You can have affordable housing, good mass transit, and jobs. Pick two.

<comment><USER17> Chicago has all three. It just has a really shitty climate and is surrounded by...corn fields

<comment><USER18> And Lake Michigan.

<comment><USER17> Ah Lake Michigan. How I hated you in the winter when your freezing winds suck the life out of me, but how I loved your cold cold waters come summer

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> After living in the SF Bay Area for 5 years, (1 in a crappy apt in Belmont, 4 in a modest home in Hayward), I have very mixed views of the place. I love the progressive politics, diversity, high concentration of smart and interesting people. I hate the traffic, over-crowded trains and the vast wealth inequality --especially since I feel that a large portion of the wealth has been retained due to tax loop holes and that if it were taxed fairly, we could solve a lot of the referenced infrastructure problems.

<comment><USER20> Do you also feel that you should decide how wealth should be retained? If people work for something (income) what makes you feel you are entitled to decide what to do with their work's result? I love socialists, they care more about other people's money than their own lives. They fight for equal poverty for all, too, but they never mind their own business.

<comment><USER21> Actually the term "loophole" refers not to a dispute over how wealth _should_ be redistributed, but to a discrepancy between the expected amount and the measured amount.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wonder what the percentage is in other areas around the country. It would be nice to know to have a better sense of how much is a reasonable baseline and how much is Bay Area specific.

<comment><USER23> Also,

The high cost of housing here is often presented as Bay Area specific phenomena whereas it's phenomena that's appeared many urban areas, especially the most desirable ones that Bay Area residents might consider moving to.

<comment><USER24> Increasing urban unaffordability is a theme throughout the US, yes, but let's not pretend that the Bay Area has experienced this to a degree not seen anywhere else - even in New York.

While unaffordability and its many causes needs to be addressed everywhere, SF does seem like the odd one out of the bunch.

<comment><USER23> Well, the increase in cost of housing has been very patchy - each instance it is very mediated by local conditions but still not simply a local phenomena.

As a Bay Area resident, I'm eager to escape to places _like the Bay_ but with a lower cost of living and scanning craigslist for such places, I have consistently found the differences less than I'd imagine.

A variety of things seem to have come together.

On the demand side, the job market today seems to favor certain of the young and the educated. The social consensus has become that no one, especially not the young and educated, wants to live in America's vast expanse of suburban developments - and investors are equally shy about investing her.

But also on the supply side, investment in any and all stores of value has gone up all along with the process of the Fed printing money aggressively with investment rental property going with that; the Blackstone group is now one of the nations' largest landlords. And of course a array of Home-value protectors in the form of Nimbyists, prevents construction and a lack of land central cities naturally restricts supply as well.

But still, I think it's reasonably to say you have a national phenomena which simply manifests locally in different ways.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Please don't come to Austin. I moved from SF to Austin a little over two years ago, and I want to make it clear that it's terrible. The food is bad, the people are lame, and all the musicians are out of tune. I hear Chicago is where it's at, so please go there. Or New York. Or anywhere else, really. Just don't come to Austin.

<comment><USER26> I'm going to clarify that I'm not picking on you, but I loathe this attitude. I see it in Denver constantly. I moved here, but now we're full up. Ironically, it mostly comes from people that are transplants themselves. It's rather elitist to tell people where they can and can't live especially with the "forget you, I got mine" dynamic going on from the transplants themselves.

<comment><USER27> I think that the OP's intent at humor just wooshed right by you. The OP author was poking fun at the situation, by making up things about Austin so that people don't rush there like they did San Francisco.

<comment><USER26> >by making up things about Austin so that people don't rush there like they did San Francisco.

No this is exactly what I thought OP meant and is just a softer way of telling people to not move somewhere.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> The results of that poll reminded me of this:

[http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us- comm...](http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us-commuters- favor-public-tra-1434)

Stated intent is different than actual intent. I think it's interesting to note that employment is going up, while people state that they will leave in a few years. What does a few years mean - 2 years? 5 years? Wouldn't ones actual move correlate more with economic outlook than stated intent to move?

</comment><comment><USER29> Is the Bay Area no longer a good place to start a career? I'm close to finishing up my PhD, and my original plan was to apply to work at the tech companies that I find most interesting. For the most part, these are located in the Bay Area — although some are in New York, Austin, Boston, Seattle, Raleigh, and Atlanta.

I figured I would stay there 2-4 years tops though, since my family and girlfriend live in the southeast. I don't mind living in a box-sized apartment for a while, but if there's no longer a career benefit to doing this, then perhaps I should focus my job search efforts on other cities?

<comment><USER30> I'm slightly older than you (my college friends finished their PhDs 2 years ago), grew up in SV and still work here.

With respect to cost of living, I think it is fine to start a career here. A PhD starting salary at most (big) places will cover a 1 bed room in a good area with decent transit options like San Mateo just fine. You won't live like a king but you won't like like a miser either. That being said looking for places while still being Tennessee will be hard, so you might get a sublet for 2 months and look for a more permanent place after you arrive.

Where it gets really hard is when you start looking for homes to buy when you start a family, and care about school districts. If you're open to moving out to the South East after getting established in your field (not sure if you want to stay in chemistry/pharma or head towards purely data oriented roles), you would be able to mitigate this [1] One thing I'd consider is how feasible moving across the country will actually be.

Anyways, happy to answer questions over email. Contact is in profile.

[1] you should definitely look at Cambridge/Boston if you want to stay in pharma/chem.

<comment><USER29> Thanks for the advice. I'll check out the Boston area too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> What's the number of people that want to move to the Bay Area though?

<comment><USER32> I'm thinking about moving to either Bay Area or Los Angeles with a family, from Prague. I have a 7 years old kid. I am not sure if that's the right thing. We're doing it for the climate. It's really difficult to find a warm English-speaking country where you won't be culturally isolated from the rest of the world. I can work pretty much from anywhere, however I am not a magnate. Things definitely to be missed:

\- Prague's ultra-affordability (avg. salary is about $1,000/mo, so if you're selling to global market you can live with luxury) \- travel opportunities-- I'm in the middle of everything \- proximity to relatives \- great British school--very liberal, easy international atmosphere, we're lucky \- overall "easygoingness" \- full decriminalization (no problem in CA) \- economically uniform society, although sometimes it's a double-edged sword \- no requirement for pretending being a patriot

Things I will not miss: \- very short summer, always feeling cold, gloomy skies \- crappy food, although it's improving fast lately.

Am I crazy? Where would you move if you'd want a good weather? I enjoy Berlin immensely, but it's too cold. I'd move to London, but it's cold. I hate being cold.

<comment><USER33> There are some other American cities with "good enough" climates and tech hubs if you're not looking to be in the Valley specifically. Austin and Atlanta are two that would be southern enough that it probably meet the rest of your criteria. It may not be as nice as the Valley per se, but still perhaps nicer than what you're used to. If you're not particularly worried about being in a tech hub because you work remotely and intend to continue to do so, a whole lot of other areas of interest open up too, both in and out of the US.

<comment><USER32> Yes, they're both on to-explore list. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Among the people who voted, this is the number for Taxable household income for 2016

More than $150,000 16% Prefer not to respond 11% Rest of the % are all under $150,000.

Good senior engineer/product people make way more than that. I don't think any of those people are leaving. They are the critical-mass who will make/break good technical companies and power the innovation cycle. SV is in no trouble. There is no real scare of brain-drain.

<comment><USER34> I admit this comment might be insensitive and will probably ruffle the feathers of many but I was purely thinking from the point of view of economic impact and who drive(s) the innovation engine here. VCs, People who made it in tech, hungry (for success) people who want to make it in tech, and senior product and engineering people who can build solid products (not charlatans or imposters) have no reason to leave SV. They are all doing well money wise except probably hungry ones who are motivated to make a lot of impact or money or both.

I am interested to hear what other people have to say about this.

<comment><USER35> Zoom out - you're missing the huge demographic risk. The next generation of people who will become top engineers, founders, etc. are facing tougher tradeoffs between standard of living and access to SV's social and business networks. It's not only the risk that the current drivers will leave but that the new drivers will just go elsewhere.

<comment><USER34> For 2015/16, new college grads at good companies total comp is in the range $120-180K, and they definitely have access to good social networks within the company and outside. Is there a large group of next generation people I am missing?

<comment><USER36> Considering how few 2015/2016 college grads will actually get one of those jobs at good companies, I think your large group is, well, any graduating class. If the Bay Area becomes unattractive for the kids who _can 't_ score $120k+, or for seniors like me who can't score the $200k+ jobs, it won't survive at the level it has been going on for.

In that sense, the distribution of salaries attached to the answers is telling. How do the startups and non-elite companies survive if nobody they can actually afford wants to come or stay? The area can't just be a playground for the elite megacompanies that can pay the salaries you state.

<comment><USER35> Actually, maybe it can? If we can ignore the somewhat tasteless aspect of this, what if the Bay Area was just a playground for kids who get 6-figure salaries at graduation, and then stay at high-paying jobs there?

It becomes extremely elitist, with all the costs and benefits of that. The benefit is that everyone who can afford to live there is implicitly vetted by a rich employer or investor, so there could be extremely high serendipity. The costs are massive insularity, risk of the next big thing coming from elsewhere, and hugely inflated costs for basic service labor.

But, if the vetting is good enough, maybe those costs are worth it?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I may be missing some nuance here, but wouldn't increasing sales tax (as the Silicon Valley Leadership Group is advocating) further disproportionately punish lower-income residents? The article doesn't make clear whether moving towards a "Manhattan-like megalopolis" would be a positive or negative trend, but this would push it further down that road.

<comment><USER38> From my limited understanding of economics: yes. The reason is that lower income people spend more of their money on necessities, whereas richer people spend more money on luxury goods (things they don't need), and they could hence respond more to an increase in sales tax (that is, spend less as a fraction of their income). To reiterate, the lower income people can't spend less (they're buying necessities), so the increase will cause them to spend a greater total fraction of their wages. So, when compared to an increase in income tax, an increase in sales tax is theoretically far more regressive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Anyone wondering where to move? [https://teleport.org/cities](https://teleport.org/cities) Compare life quality data, costs of living, salaries...

</comment><comment><USER40> The "hope" part discourages me. It means that despite the wishes to leave, the jobs elsewhere (or telecommuting opportunities) may simply not be there.

</comment><comment><USER41> Errr, so now i'm wondering why everyone stopped caring about cost of living in 2015? :)

It looks like they may have been super-concerned about water running out instead?

</comment><comment><USER42> I moved to the area a few months ago for my career, and while I wouldn't say I hope to leave soon, I don't plan on putting down roots. My hope is to save up some money and buy a cheap house in cash where the cost of real estate and living is cheap, then move there. I suspect that there are a lot of other people that are looking to do the same.

</comment><comment><USER43> Nobody moves there anymore, it's too crowded.

<comment><USER10> Also

Nobody buys houses there anymore, because the bidding wars have gotten out of hand.

Nobody drives to work there anymore, the commute traffic is just too bad.

Nobody wants to work there anymore, there are just too many jobs producing competition for scarce housing and transit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> 12,000 people moved to SF in 2014. 4,000 new homes were added. I think we need more homes. [https://medium.com/@TomPJacobs/what-housing- crisis-3c0568a5d...](https://medium.com/@TomPJacobs/what-housing- crisis-3c0568a5dd44)

<comment><USER10> The link seems to advocate/facilitate increasing occupancy, which is indeed one solution. With 12k people and 4k homes, that's a ratio of 3 which is very close to the average occupancy of around 2.5 that most cities have.

<comment><USER45> Except that looking at a single year doesn't tell you much about why even a ratio of 3 isn't good in SF. After a quick google search I came across this set of charts that do a pretty good job of covering the history of population and housing in SF.[0] For the period 2010-2013, population rose 32,500 and housing expanded 7,500 - a sustained ratio of 4.33. The decade prior to that saw a much gentler ratio just a little over 1, but that may have been catching up to the booming growth of the '90s and the dotcom bubble. The thing that really caught my eye though was the tidbit of information in the first chart - nearly half of the existing housing in SF was built prior to 1940. The original report (linked in the article) provides a much more grim outlook for 2010-2015 predicting a total population growth of 60,000 with a housing increase of 12,000 - a ratio of 5.[1]

0 - [http://sf.curbed.com/2015/2/4/9995388/sfs-population-is- grow...](http://sf.curbed.com/2015/2/4/9995388/sfs-population-is-growing-way- faster-than-its-housing-stock)

1 - [http://www.paragon- re.com/San_Francisco_Real_Estate_Feb_2015](http://www.paragon- re.com/San_Francisco_Real_Estate_Feb_2015)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Come check out troy, new york. Growing startup scene and lots of awesome shops and cafe's.

<comment><USER47> Is there really a lot to offer there? I currently live farther upstate (north of the Adirondacks) and have been considering moving down to the capital region.

<comment><USER46> yeah its a really fun time. Along with all of the shops, microbreweries and bars that opened up within the last four years, there is a makerspace called the center of gravity which opened fairly recently [1]. It's got 3D printers and all that jazz. The city has done a nice job reinventing itself.

[1]: [http://www.tvcog.net](http://www.tvcog.net)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I never thought I would say that LA is cheaper than San Francisco. The average one bedroom apartment is around $3k. I'm not sure how people can afford to live here anymore. I live in Marin and commute to Silicon Valley...

</comment><comment><USER49> I already left! In Boston currently, but looking to go back to SoCal soon! (Really wonder why there isn't a bigger startup scene in LA/SD than in the Bay Area, it's such a sweet location..)

<comment><USER50> There's been a good size biotech startup scene in SD for some time.

<comment><USER49> Yes you are correct! Very interesting phenomenon how similar industries will cluster in/around the same location.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I'm pretty sure that the tech kids didn't plan to stay there for more than a few years anyway. They're making big salaries, but the rent is so high that they can't save any money. What they can do is drag that fancy resume back to the Indiana suburb they came from, and buy a nice house with a 20 minute commute to the industrial park that they work in. Or a nice condo in downtown Boise, a five-minute bike ride from their CTO job at some newspaper, or the gas company.

Not necessarily a bad outcome...

</comment><comment><USER52> I've been saying that for about 15 years now, yet I'm still here. I've certainly looked around, visited a few places, went on some job interviews out of the area, but haven't been able to find anyplace that I felt I could call "home".

</comment><comment><USER53> What is the telos of man? (ultimate goal, end) The best thing for you is impossible, and that's for you to have never been (here) The next best thing is to die soon (or leave)

The wisdom of Silenus applies to life in the San Francisco

</comment><comment><USER54> My advice: find a nice town with really good Internet and lots of people you think you would enjoy being around. Programmers can work from anywhere. Take advantage of that fact (if you are a programmer).

</comment><comment><USER55> Has this number gone up or down compared to other years ? It is completely conceivable though that people would want to move, given the difficulty in procuring homes.

</comment><comment><USER56> It's a cycle. Waves of people come to and leave from the Bay Area over time. The last exodus was the 2008. The one before was the dotcom bust.

</comment><comment><USER57> Great, we'll have 1/3 less traffic and more housing space soon!

</comment><comment><USER58> And 1/3 just got there. The cycle continues.

</comment><comment><USER59> Seattle is good!

<comment><USER60> No it's not. I'm trudging through mud and oppressive rain right this moment.

<comment><USER61> More like "my apartment is 90 degrees and it's not even June"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Don't look at Denver, it's all stoners from the green wave and Tebow fans now. Maybe Austin?

</comment><comment><USER63> bye felicia. lower rents for all!

</comment><comment><USER64> The question is will people use this signal to change course (better transit, sane housing density, walkability, etc) or to perpetuate the wrong course (more tract housing in Antioch, wider freeways, etc).

</comment><comment><USER65> Please don't come to New York. I moved from Amherst to New York a little over four years ago, and I want to make it clear that it's terrible. The food is bad, the people are lame, and all the musicians are out of tune. I hear Chicago is where it's at, so please go there. Or Seattle. Or anywhere else, really. Just don't come to New York.

</comment><comment><USER66> Hope too, in 20 years, retire to Latin America :) Until that, I have to work, and BA is the only place where a programmer can work.

<comment><USER67> > and BA is the only place where a programmer can work.

Yes, in exactly none of the big cities in the USA there is programming being done, let alone medium cities.

Nothing in NYC, nothing in Chicago, Seattle, Boston, Austin, DFW, Minneapolis, Portland, etc

Only on SFBA

Sure

<comment><USER66> Haven't tried myself, yet huge crowds of incoming people can't be that wrong :)

In particular i think only CA has non-recognition of non-competes (and moonlighting protection too if i remember right) while the rest of US - doesn't.

<comment><USER17> Yeah because the herd mentality has shown to be correct so often.

C'mon you know what you are saying is wrong. I worked in SV/SF and now live in NYC and I much prefer the tech scene here. In fact there's a massive shortage of programmers so you could actually make more money in NYC.

But you don't even need to live there. You can work remote. Programming is one of the _only_ jobs you can do literally from anywhere.

<comment><USER66> >Programming is one of the only jobs you can do literally from anywhere

you're putting theory ahead of practice. We're talking right now inside of one more thread where programmers discuss how hard it is to live in BA - don't you feel any contradiction between that fact and your statement?

You with your theory reminded me about that joke yesterday in Prairie Home Companion : "People of Galveston can look in the eye of reality and dismiss it" :)

<comment><USER17> You are clearly a troll, albeit a funny one as I've never seen someone refer to PHC on HN before.

Go the Who's Hiring thread today and there's plenty of remote options. I worked remote for a few years. I also worked in _gasp_ the flyover states for a bit too. You really can program anywhere.

Or you can keep drinking the BA kool aid. I spent some time there, not for me, pretty awful place really. But apparently the programming job I work at now outside of the BA doesn't exist according to you?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Deskzero – Find inspiring spots to work remotely with wifi and coffee - <AUTHOR> http://deskzero.co

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN! I and a friend of mine made this in our spare time just for fun and because we need it.

The whole website is powered by WordPress that seemed to us the easiest solution to do things quickly and ship this MVP in less time. Right now we only cover London (we live there) but we plan to unlock new cities soon with the help of local editors that are already getting in contact with us, such as Los Angeles, Vancouver, Amsterdam, Milan (feel free to drop us a line if you would like to help us! :) ). If you know cool spots in your own city, please let us know using the link on the top right corner of Deskzero. Much appreciated!

Our core future at the moment is that you can invite someone to meet you in a place right from Deskzero. You type the name and email of your guest, pick up a time and we send an email invitation for you with all the info (time, venue name and address and eventually your message).

We have couple of ideas to monetise this, among which creating beautiful city maps of the spots we cover and offering a subscription to nomads for perks in these venues (what benefits would you like the most?).

We'd really like to have your feedback from a technical, business and user perspective (we're not sensitive but be gentle, this is still a side project so it does have bugs!! :)). Thanks!</comment>