Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet - <AUTHOR> http://www.microsoft.com/surface/ <comment><USER3> I don't understand the "OMG MICROSOFT MADE A TABLET IT IS CLEARLY COPYING THE IPAD" reaction Microsoft's getting here. They're absolutely ahead of the curve with the blending of mobile and desktop operating systems, something which I am extremely happy they are doing, and this is absolutely the logical design choices someone in that position would make.

Yes, it's very similar to the iPad in many ways. But other than some of the marketing, it doesn't seem to fall any closer to Apple than any of the Android tablets we've been seeing for the last year. In fact, the metro UI (extreme minimalism) is pretty drastically different from Apple's style (extreme detail). Apple phased out the bold color designs _years_ ago. (And don't feed me the "Microsoft is just really slow at copying" nonsense - it's clearly as much an original design as any.)

A lot of the arguments against it are the sort of arguments Samsung fought against in its lawsuit with Apple. The result of that was a totally unique product, and an awful one. ([http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/04/the- samsung-galaxy-s...](http://www.androidpolice.com/2012/05/04/the-samsung- galaxy-s-iii-the-first-smartphone-designed-entirely-by-lawyers/))

<comment><USER4> It's pretty obvious where that reaction is coming from.

As recently as last year Microsoft was singing the praises of being able to kinda-sorta-use desktop software on a tablet and pushing the notion that things without desktop operating systems were 'consumption' devices, at best.

So, yes, their sudden reversal on what people want in a tablet is worth noting and easily justifies the same kind of quips and barbs that people lob at Apple over Jobs' similar reversals [1].

And it's pretty easy to be ahead of the curve on blending mobile and desktop operating systems when Microsoft is the only party who sees a problem to be solved in the first place. [2]

Because this entire concept -- that people want both -- comes apart at the seams about a month after you've owned an Apple or Android tablet. [3]

Simply: there's no user-facing problem being solved here.

People use tablets for what they're great at and desktop PCs for what they're great at. And no-one who's ever put their tablet down to use their laptop is looking at that Microsoft Surface tablet and saying "this will mean I don't have to put the tablet down for these tasks anymore". [4]

Microsoft is attempting to solve it's _own_ problem with this blending concept and the degree to which this tablet succeeds, is going to strongly track the degree to which Windows stays out of the Metro experience [5].

[1] "No-one wants a widget." (Smash cut to 18 months later) "Introducing Apple's new iWidget!"

[2] That Windows is irrelevant in a growing computing market.

[3] And I say that as someone who has been pro-tablet for a decade and only grudgingly gave Apple's "big iPod" approach a chance.

[4] At best, the typing-heavy market is saying "I wonder how long it will take someone to make an iPad keyboard case that slick."

[5] Metro _is_ a unique, interesting and a refreshing change from Apple's icon grid. And I've heard far more praise for it from the design folks that get written off as Apple fanboys, than I have from the Windows crowd who generally echoed Microsoft's 'consumption' FUD.

<comment><USER5> At home I use a macbook and an ipad. The ipad is a consumption device- it's great for playing a casual game, looking up a recipe, and better than kindle for reading pdf files. It isn't really usable for programming, writing documentation, or any real work (that I do). It doesn't replace my laptop, it just does some things in a more convenient way.

Microsoft's Surface looks like (for me) it could replace both the ipad and my macbook. It isn't a consumption device- it runs a full operating system. I could remote in to work from anywhere, attach it to a monitor if I wanted to work at home, and easily carry it around. It provides the convenience of a tablet, while allowing real work to be done. It even comes in pretty colors.

Apple wants me to own a phone, a music player, a tablet, and a laptop all to do separate things in separate places. This isn't necessary.

This is not a reversal of Microsoft's position- it's the logical next step.

<comment><USER4> > _"Microsoft's Surface looks like (for me) it could replace both the ipad and > my macbook."_

Things always have a way of looking like what we want them to, before we get a chance to see them. I know how it works; I spent a lot of time waiting, hoping and grumbling about Windows tablets.

And what I see here, is an ARM tablet that has a real shot as a tablet - provided the Windows side stays out of the way.

And a hand-waved x86 tablet that may or may not be notably improved over last year's Windows tablets.

From that, you seem to be hoping the best of the ARM tablet (size/battery/usability) is implicit in the x86 tablet or vice-versa (does the ARM tablet even allow keyboard/mouse style apps from third parties?).

And that's precisely what remains to be seen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> So they're not just going after the iPad, they're also going after the MacBook Air: The Intel version + Touch Cover was repeatedly shown with the regular desktop and apps on it, and generally spun as a sort of light laptop.

Ambitious, and finally makes sense of their Metro/desktop combo OS strategy to a degree. The hardware to go along with it was a missing puzzle piece, and I guess shows just how important it can be.

<comment><USER7> It strikes me as an entirely natural development and something that will appeal to many consumers.

I get the feeling Apple have always wanted iPad to be an extra - an extension to the desktop experience. But the divisions between phone, tablet, "ultralight laptop" and "main laptop" are arbitrary and increasingly opaque. Many people are starting to see tablets and real possible replacements: for light users, it handles 90% of their computer usage (internet browser, video and photo viewing). Even for "serious" computer users, tablets offer many advantages. They are quiet, keep cool, look good, super portable, and last a long time. People seem quite content with the lower processing power if they afforded these big pluses.

This Surface with integrated keyboard and support for regular win 8 apps could take it the extra 10% for a lot of people.

<comment><USER8> I do wonder a bit, how will this blurring of the laptop/tablet line affect their cash cow, Microsoft Office? The business world is trained to believe: they NEED office, and office == productivity. The iPad, long without these apps, challenged this ideal. How would the tablet world spilling into the laptop world affect Office sales...

<comment><USER9> Even my boss and my partner, died-in-the-wool Windows fans, are well aware of OpenOffice. The idea that MS Office is necessary for productivity simply does not exist. Anyone in an office still using Windows has at least considered the possibility of seeing Linux or Mac on their desktop. Maybe not seriously, but the thought has crossed their mind.

<comment><USER10> > The idea that MS Office is necessary for productivity simply does not exist.

If you have thousands of pre-existing spreadsheets in your office, many of them running fairly complex VBA macros, the idea that MS Office is necessary certainly does exist. And I've never worked anywhere where that isn't the case.

And at organizations of this type, the licensing cost of Office per desktop is peanuts. Can't remember what the prices were, but I was shocked how little it costs large organizations.

<comment><USER9> That's probably a bit different. Anyone who writes or manages "fairly complex VBA macros" (and I have consulted for a company that did) is well aware there are many ways to skin that cat. That's not a definition of necessity. That's a definition of percieved cost of change.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> They have a video on the main page. The video is a minute long. They have asked for my attention for a minute.

In that minute, they have not told me anything about what the Surface can do for me, and why I should care about it. I'm absolutely baffled by that.

Yes, I might know what it is, and have some idea about what it can do, but if this was a television commercial, I'd bet money that such a campaign would be a quickly forgotten failure.

<comment><USER12> Successful companies have learned that a (shockingly) large proportion of consumers form impressions and make decisions on a primarily _emotional_ , rather than rational or practical, basis. That's what this video is designed for. It inaugurates the brand, piques the viewer's interest, and plants the seeds of desire.

Trust me, there will be plenty of time in the coming months for in-depth product reviews, spec comparisons, etc. ad nauseam.

<comment><USER13> Really, you think that the video succeeds on that level?

I think there's about 10s worth of content there.

<comment> dorian-graph Don't pretend you're the world.

<comment><USER14> Ok, your argument is that this stuff works for the other 95% but it won't appeal to us hackers. My question to you is, how does Apple make ads that appeal to the rest of the world and something like 75% of the hackers?

When the iPhone first came out, there was no nonsense about the brand and emotion without substance. They made EVERYONE want one.

Microsoft may have chosen not to appeal to us. But Apple has shown that you can do both.

<comment><USER12> > _Ok, your argument is that this stuff works for the other 95% but it won't > appeal to us hackers. My question to you is, how does Apple make ads that > appeal to the rest of the world and something like 75% of the hackers?_

Asking that question is like asking an Olympic sprinter why he can't be as fast as Usain Bolt, or scolding a successful musician for not selling as many records as Lady Gaga.

Compared to Apple, pretty much every company sucks at marketing. So what? Apple is an extreme outlier in its PR success, owing to a number of unique factors other companies cannot realistically replicate.

How would you answer your own question? Do you think there's a simple solution Microsoft hasn't figured out?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm actually a Windows user (although I own an iPad), but you have to be a bit humored by all this. As usual where Apple has used a feather Microsoft have used the whole chicken with keyboards, screws, different versions, the whole enchilada. I'm only surprised there's no stickers. "ClearType display"? really, you felt you had to brand it just to compete with "Retina display".

Despite all this the tablet might actually be good, and seeing another quality tablet contender is always good for competition. I am however getting a bit worried by Microsofts "me too"-attitude and the reek of desperation these days. They could be making awesome stuff but they lack follow-through and the finer points of taste

It's a pity they won't put their chips down on things that actually _were_ original, like the courier or mainstreaming the surface (the table). In the end they didn't have any choice since they couldn't surrender their enterprise tablet/smartphone customers to Apple. The Courier was innovative but perhaps too niche so its not even sure that was a bad call.

I guess I'm just arguing about the finer points about their attitude and execution, with Microsoft I'm always afraid that in-company bureaucracy will manifest itself into some stupid decision on the consumers behalf. Apple are fanatics (and splending assholes in some cases), but atleast you feel they pretty much set the consumer first and have some taste

Having said all this I'm still kinda rooting for MS since they ironically enough seem to be the underdog nowadays, how the tables have turned...

<comment><USER16> ClearType has been around for a _very_ long time. It's basically subpixel- rendering that improves the visual quality of text (sort of effectively tripling the LCD resolution). Last I checked, Microsoft had patented the hell out of it (and I last checked a few years ago).

I think they're right about touting a technology that effectively triples text-display resolution.

And for your other observation about the whole enchilada, look around you-- do you see people that use external keyboards with their iPad? These would be willing customers for a tablet that is actually is pen+touch+type (ditto with people who try and augment their iPad with screen pens, even on a screen that has trouble with palm touches).

Lastly, I'm skeptical about "companies-with-taste". Steve Jobs certainly had good taste, but I'm not sure the whole of Apple is comparably good. I think, sans Jobs, Microsoft is doing the best they can-- prototyping for months and trying to understand where they fit into a market.

<comment><USER17> I don't know how they're going to make subpixel anti-aliasing work if you can rotate the display. I wouldn't be surprised if they just are re-using the ClearType name and it's not actually sub-pixel anti-aliased, just regular anti-aliased (like the iPad).

<comment><USER18> The OS knows, at some level, the orientation it's displaying the screen in. So in principle, there's no reason it can't use subpixel rendering appropriately. Although it might be hard to achieve - I don't know how the graphics stack works.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I occasionally use a Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad when I feel like firing off a bunch of email from my recliner. The keyboard is on my lap and the iPad is off to the side. It's nice because it's literally the exact same keyboard I use with my laptop and my desktop.

The Surface's attached, floppy keyboard wouldn't work for me at all. If I need to set up at a desk then I'll just pull out my laptop.

The concept of a screen-cover/keyboard is interesting, but I'm not sure how practical it is in real life. Virtually 100% of the time I use my iPad it (or its BT keyboard) is on my lap. (As I type this I'm sitting on a lawn chair on my patio). And if it's not a full stroke keyboard then I don't see it as being very comfortable to use.

I also dislike the 16:9 screen. On a tablet, 16:9 is useless for everything but movies: Too wide to thumb-type in landscape, too narrow and tall in portrait.

I also suppose they'll be able to severely undercut OEM manufacturers on price, especially of this thing stumbles out of the gate. If I were Dell or HP I would seriously question how to move forward.

But ultimately success will depend on the software. Microsoft is going to be ramming Metro down the throats of faithful Windows users in a few short months. If users love it, they'll surely flock to Metro tablets where they can use the apps they've already collected on their desktops, and Surface becomes the quick number 2 tablet. If they hate it, Metro and Surface will be about as popular as Vista and Zune.

<comment><USER20> _If I need to set up at a desk then I'll just pull out my laptop._

Then you're not in the target audience.

 _And if it's not a full stroke keyboard then I don't see it as being very comfortable to use._

Then you're not in the target audience.

 _I also dislike the 16:9 screen._

Then you're not in the target audience.

Remember when Apple went on about the "post-pc world"? This is that. And that is successful. People like it. They can watch a movie in its native aspect ratio at full screen, and also put this at a desk and type, wherever that desk may be.

I was in a meeting with a division of IBM this morning, and one of their engineers pulled out his iPad, propped it up on the folding cover, and proceeded to peck away on the virtual keyboard while taking notes. I asked him to look up specs and pricing for a bit of hardware. He looked at the iPad, then reached down to pull out his Thinkpad to look up the information.

Even if you don't accept that the general market will buy this, you have to admit that a full-featured desktop _Windows_ x86 OS running smoothly on a 10" tablet with an integrated full laptop-style keyboard that also will keep you entertained watching 16:9 movies on the flight back is a pretty appealing concept.

I could see something like this replacing my corporate Thinkpad just for the sheer convenience of being able to pick it up and move it to someone else's desk _while still working_. With HDMI-out, I can drive a second monitor as well. That's pretty spectacular.

<comment><USER21> > Even if you don't accept that the general market will buy this, you have to > admit that a full-featured desktop Windows x86 OS running smoothly on a 10" > tablet with an integrated full laptop-style keyboard that also will keep you > entertained watching 16:9 movies on the flight back is a pretty appealing > concept.

Hold on, where is this fabled device?

<comment><USER22> They have two keyboards available for the Surface. See the "full laptop-style keyboard" from their main marketing site:

[https://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/publishingima...](https://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/publishingimages/new/gallery_4_large.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> After 5 minutes of scanning their site, I still cannot find the display resolution of their offering, but I have found:

 _"Coming Soon."_

 _"Images are design renderings and not photographs."_

 _"1, 2 Actual size and weight of the device may vary due to configuration and manufacturing process"_

Anyone find a better spec sheet than this one?

[http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingasset...](http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingassets/surfacespecsheet.pdf)

Why can't Microsoft present normal details in an accessible manner?

<comment><USER24> Vaporware.

They're trying to pre-empt anyone for capturing the tablet/mobile space by rushing their design concept out before anyone else has a chance to produce product, and force everyone to ape Microsoft's claimed, rather than actual, featureset.

Oh, wait, that was NT, 1992. Scratch all of that.

<comment><USER25> Just "who" is it you think they are trying to rush? Certainly not Apple, and aside from the Fire/Nook Tablet is their an Android tablet that hasn't been dead on arrival (800 dollar Xoom anyone)?

If this was vaporware they were pushing in an attempt to get ahead of the market instead of playing catch up they would have put this out in 2010 instead of halfway through 2012.

If they can price the thing realistically (again, 800 dollar Xoom anyone?) it will have a shot otherwise it will fail (I'd really prefer it to succeed) and they'll try and spin it by saying it's targeting "the enterprise".

<comment><USER26> _is their an Android tablet that hasn't been dead on arrival_

There have been _millions_ of Android tablets sold. In most product spaces that is an incredible success, and it's only relative to the astonishing success of the iPad could that be called "dead on arrival".

And that was the rather terrible phase one. The incomplete Honeycomb, the rather terrible Tegra 2, and toothing pain hardware.

I've noticed my online electronic store absolutely pushing the next wave - <USER2> A700, 7" tablets of all sorts, etc. All of them finally featuring price advantages over the iPad.'

Anyone who buys the Android failed on tablets thing has been misled. It has been an ugly adventure but they're actually doing okay, and have set a pretty good foundation for success going forward.

<comment><USER27> This is true, only if you compare every android tablet across manufacturers. People who like to tout android vs apple love to do this. But the fact is, android tablets have not been a success for a single manufacturer. There's only so long companies will keep dumping money down this rabbit hole hoping to get lucky.

Android tablets have been a success for Google. for everyone else, not so much.

<comment><USER24> They're also arguably a success for those who are interested in building off the platform. While Google certainly counts, I suspect this goes beyond them.

As far as the hardware goes, I suspect it's going to be a very low-margin market. Razors to the blades.

This doesn't make it unsuccessful. At all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> 2012 is the year third party OEMs start to go extinct. First (and always) Apple, now Microsoft, soon Google/Motorola. There may be some niche markets left over for third party OEMs but otherwise I think they're done. No wonder HP wanted out of the PC industry. Maybe they knew something we didn't?

<comment><USER29> HP went through 4 CEOs, bought and dismantled Palm for no reason and at great capital loss, announced and then rescinded their departure from the PC industry. It's well known HP doesn't know anything about anything.

Agreed that OEMs should go away.

<comment><USER30> Why do you want them to go away? I think generally industry consolidation is a bad thing for consumers.

<comment><USER31> Industry consolidation is only a good thing when the competition it provides drives innovation. When all the players in an industry wallow around at the same level of mediocrity, that isn't really market diversity. The current tablet market is not a healthy one. It has apple at one end, and a theoretical other end that doesnt really matter. Squeezing out 15 companies that don't matter to make room for one competitor which has a chance is not a bad thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> As a happy iPad owner, and with knowing next to nothing just from first impressions, I can say this genuinely looks like a very intriguing effort by Microsoft. I love the smart cover with keyboard and it looks to be a perfect platform to showcase Win8 on. Hope this gets some real success, would be great to have some decent competition in the tablet space to keep Apple on their toes (I know there are other tablets, but they suck or are just trying to be ultra cheap etc).

</comment><comment><USER33> Shit website, shit marketing, and shit video aside, I'm seriously intrigued.

Microsoft has five cards to play here:

\- REAL Windows (TM) and Massive Microsoft Developer Mindshare \- Ports, ports, ports! \- REAL Microsoft Office (TM) INCLUDED FREE on the low-end model \- PEN AND KEYBOARD! \- Billions of dollars in cash to burn making this happen

And they have three huge challenges in front of them:

\- Windows 8 critical reception \- Their ability to execute \- They will be shipping these, at best, about two months before iPad 4 ships

Execution is going to be everything. Make this a work-friendly wonderbox that effortlessly supports Exchange, remote management, SharePoint, SkyDrive, SMB, OneNote, and Communicator/Lync? The iPad will blow off conference tables like crepe paper.

Make a fussy little piece of shit that takes the same amount of work to set up as a laptop or otherwise scares off IT? Doom.

<comment><USER34> > Shit website, shit marketing, and shit video aside, I'm seriously intrigued

Given the last statement, it appears the marketing has done something right. It is a 'coming soon' product. All it is a tab running windows 8 so making someone seriously intrigued is a marketing win. At this point they don't want to give you all the facts to make your purchase decision. They want to build interest and excitement.

Personally I think they will have messed up if this is not for sale very soon as interest and excitement are quickly lost.

<comment><USER33> I'm not quite that charitable. Any marketing firm worth their salt can put 60 seconds of good sizzle in a tape. This is classical vapor without pricing, models, specifics, premiere launch titles, retailing partnerships, or even a launch _quarter_.

I'm interested because Windows has an avalanche of great software, and I think it might be great having Windows In Glass With A Pen And A Keyboard.

The biggest problem with everything presented today is that it's going to spend its first product cycle competing against iPad 4 running iOS 6. And I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that Apple has an equivalent Keyboard Cover all ready to go if the winds start blowing that direction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> So, to recap, no price, no demo of what it can actually do or why I would want one, two models with different processor architectures and significantly varying weights (1.5 and 2 lbs), awkward portrait 16:9 aspect ratio, no mention of battery life or availability, vents and cooling fans, two keyboards that look miserable to type on, but I'll reserve judgement until I've used one myself, and an admittedly useful kickstand.

This strikes me as a reactionary announcement from Microsoft. The surface is trying to be all things to all people. An iPad killer it is not. Still, I can't fault them for trying; their future rests on sales of Office and Windows.

<comment><USER20> _why I would want one_

I think that should be obvious. It's a computer.

 _two models with different processor architectures and significantly varying weights_

God forbid they release models for the two processors they support. You'd _never_ see Apple making different models with different processor architectures and different weights.

 _awkward portrait 16:9 aspect ratio_

Sort of like every laptop on the market right now. They're all really awkward.

 _no mention of... vents and cooling fans_

Perimeter venting. See [1] and search for "venting". They did mention this.

 _This strikes me as a reactionary announcement_

Reactionary announcements tend not to be well-planned or thought out months or years ahead of time. A product with this tight of tolerances can't be rushed in a defensive move. Is it a reaction to the changing world of computing? Yes. It is a reactionary move as in immediately defensive? No.

 _The surface is trying to be all things to all people._

That's been Microsoft's mantra since day one. A computer in every home, on every desk. Running Windows.

[1] [http://www.trustedreviews.com/microsoft-surface-tablet- for-w...](http://www.trustedreviews.com/microsoft-surface-tablet-for- windows-8_Tablet_review)

<comment><USER35> But is it a computer?

Take a look at these press shots: <http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx>

While it may look like a handy tablet that's able to convert into a thin and light laptop computer through the use of one of their keyboard covers, it's not by any means. A kickstand doesn't rest on someone's thighs with any acceptable measure of stability. So what does that make the Surface then if it's not a notebook computer, a desktop? Okay, let's run with that. Prop this thing on your desk with this case maneuver every time you'd want to use it as a desktop computer. Is a 10.7 inch display really acceptable when you're sitting at a desk and farther away from the display than you would be if it were on your lap? I don't know about you, but this seems like a nonstarter for anything but a Metro app. Would anyone want to use either one of those keyboards? Microsoft hasn't even made any mention of their size. Are they full-sized keyboards like the one found on the 11.6" MacBook Air, or is it scaled down like those finger-hating netbook keyboards?

This is the crux of the problem with the Surface: it's a mediocre computer, and a mediocre tablet. Microsoft should have shot for making a great tablet, or a great notebook. I'm taking the liberty of calling it a mediocre tablet based on the heft and size of the thing. You mention 16:9 being on every laptop in the market, which is fine, since nobody turns their laptop on their side and views anything in portrait mode like they do on a tablet. 16:9 tablets in portrait look insanely tall.

Also, by having two different architectures, consumers will run into the problem of not being able to run apps that work on the Surface for Microsoft Windows 8 on Intel on their Surface for Microsoft Windows RT (these names roll off the tongue, for people who browse HN and Reddit I'm sure we can handle it, but someone like my sister, girlfriend, dad? Not a chance).

Why no pricing or availability? By announcing something 4-5 months in advance, Microsoft risks the public forgetting and/or not caring about Surface tablet when it's actually released. It has a vaporware vibe to it when there isn't a hard release date or window. Say what you will about Apple but when they announce a new product, they almost always give it price and release date so you can actually walk into a store and buy their product. Microsoft isn't showing a lot of confidence by saying it will be priced competitively with other tablets and having no availability.

I'm still not sure if it includes cooling fans, if it's just a vent then that's a non-issue.

You're right about Microsoft's mantra, but that was before they made their own hardware. When they just licensed software, they wanted Windows everywhere. On your desktop, notebook, smartphone, kiosk, etc. Now that they're in the computer hardware game, they need to sell these Surface tablets at a profit (obviously), and I don't see them doing that when the Surface doesn't excel at any one function as well as a full-blown desktop computer or an iPad.

One last thing, Microsoft making PC hardware puts their OEM partners in a really awkward position. Think of it, they have to pay Microsoft a license fee to run Windows on their hardware in order to compete with Microsoft? That blows my mind, I can only guess some of these partners will move to Android which is (kind of) free.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I think the case is what is most interesting. Keyboard + trackpad.

Good bet by Microsoft. They are trying to shift the tablet market away from "a bigger smartphone" and back into their bread & butter desktop environment. They hope to leverage their ecosystem of apps on Windows and couldn't really do that with just a touch interface.

I'm excited to see what it feels like when it is released. I'll be honest, I'm not convinced that I'll be able to deal with the context switching between traditional and metro UI's (+ touch and trackpad input methods), but I'll certainly give it shot. Best of both worlds if Microsoft pulls it off.

</comment><comment><USER37> If this lives up to the promise, it will definitely replace my netbook. This looks like something that will perform well as a tablet for apps and light internet usage, and is an easy form-factor to take to a coffeeshop for some hacking or writing as a netbook replacement.

EDIT: Why downvote ?? I don't care about the points, just curious if you are MS haters or something.

<comment><USER38> Don't worry, it's made by Microsoft, so it will suck.

<comment><USER39> Xbox is a good product.

<comment><USER40> If you ignore the RROD

<comment><USER20> In which the return was handled pretty well. It was a fairly painless procedure when I turned mine in, call them up, spend 5 minutes on the phone, they send you a box with free shipping and another one is dispatched to you as soon as they receive the one you sent. They then redesigned it to prevent the issue happening again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I just flashed back to Ballmer mocking the MacBook Air 4 years ago. I guess he did want one after all.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYcxvEfUikg>

<comment><USER42> As someone who considers the current MacBook Air to be "the computer", enough to have made it my primary and only machine, the MacBook Air from four years ago was horrible: I laughed at my friends that got it, and I laughed all the harder when they didn't use it for months and then got a usable laptop. The 2010 Air is honestly barely the same device as the one from 2008.

My point: pulling statements from four years ago and attempting to claim that they were wrong because the same words said today are silly or hypocritical is a little dishonest. (The classic example of this: the original iPhone running the original iPhone OS was actually not very good. Yet, people now make fun of people who claimed that, as some newer iPhone running the latest iOS is finally amazing.)

<comment><USER43> How was it horrible? Compared to other ultraportables at the time it was exceptionally good (I bought a FSC Q2010 just before the iPad came out.)

<comment><USER42> To start with, the 13" model (the only one available in 2008) isn't even _that_ (ultra)portable; it is sure thin, but in comparison to that FSC Q2010 it is a monster: it is 50% heavier with an additional inch of width and half an inch of depth.

In exchange for being more consistent in its thickness (despite having almost identical thickest points), the FSC Q2010 ends up with a plethora of ports: in addition to an ethernet port (although one that requires an adapter), you had ExpressCard, an SD card slot, an external microphone jack, and two USB ports.

Now, looking back to the Air, one of the interesting design choices they went with in 2008 was to get rid of the ethernet port entirely. This is not as much of a problem with the later Airs, and not for the reason you might think... (it isn't just that WiFi became more plentiful).

Instead, the MacBook Air 2010/2011 came with two USB ports, and the 2012 model _adds_ a thunderbolt port: it is totally fine to use an adapter on a random extra port. Instead, the 2008 MacBook Air had a _single_ USB port; this, combined with the mini display port, was the only extensibility on the device.

In essence, everything you could possibly attach to this device but the monitor had to go in to the one port, so if you wanted 1) cellular or wired internet and 2) an iPod/iPhone, you couldn't do it. I had a friend that was travelling and ended up sitting outside of a hotel in his car trying to steal enough WiFi just to upgrade his phone to the latest firmware.

However, it isn't just these external inconveniences that defined this device; to get an idea of just how spartan the 2008 MacBook Air was, you have to realize that they didn't even manage to get stereo speakers into it: yes, the thing had only one mono speaker. This was fixed in the 2010 versions. ;P

While the RAM configuration on the 2008 MacBook Air trounces your FSC Q2010 (a device that, despite its name, seems to have been sold in 2006?), it still couldn't go past 2GB, which even at the time (the contemporary MacBook Pro took 4GB) limited your options as a developer, or even a browser of many websites. In 2010 they upped it to 4GB maximum.

Looking at the 2006 specifications for this FSC Q2010, it is ludicrous just how much stuff they stuck in it.... I mean, you had a 2G cellular radio... the people I know who travelled with the Air had to carry around a massive USB dongle to accomplish that (as in 2008, phone tethering wasn't yet that common or convenient).

In essence, no: I'd argue that the MacBook Air, in 2008, was a horrible device that was mostly based on some kind of weird design fetish of "how thin can I make a computer housed in a metal case". It was not really attempting to be a usable system: it was at best a proof-of-concept for what, after two years of re-engineering effort, they might be able to make into an awesome machine.

The result at the time was then large (width/depth), underpowered (RAM/CPU), under-featured (mono speakers), and unextensible (a single port); this is even in comparison to computers that had come out years earlier (the 2006 FSC Q2010) that were significantly lighter (2.2lbs vs. 3.0lbs).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> So, let me see if I got this right. From the live blog:

 _Surface for Windows RT coming in 32GB and 64GB models. Priced "like comparable tablets based on ARM."_

This is the one that won't run Windows programs. Right now, there are little to no apps that are made for it. It's also the one without full HD screen. And they'll still try to sell them for $400-$600.

 _Pro coming in 64GB and 128GB models, will be priced on par with Ultrabook- class PCs._

That's the Intel Core tablet, which needs vents. Priced at $900-1100. More expensive than any other tablet on the market. Needs the thicker keyboard cover, but will run Windows programs.

<comment><USER45> If the enterprise market is happy with the functionality, they won't care about the price differential since it's not too far off a decent notebook. But the consumer market will not buy this if it's priced the same as an iPad. Look at the dismal sales of the Lumia phones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I think it's pretty safe to say that this is Microsoft going all in on the consumer market.

1\. Video doesn't really show anything but it is admittedly well made. 2\. You have to actually download the tech specs. 3\. The tech specs have little meaning. (At first glance what is ClearType HD Display, some sort of Retina?)

It's like they took the apple philosophy even further.

Not sure how I feel about this but I guess now finally all the windows people have what the metro really is made for.

Oh and a little detail.

2100 Likes so far and not a single tweet (which obviously can't be true for reasons I am not yet aware of.)

<comment><USER47> >some sort of Retina?

The power of Apple's marketing cannot be overstated here. You're referring to a Microsoft screen by an Apple trademark.

<comment><USER46> Heh yeah well. First mover advantage I guess.

And apple of course had it right. If you want to bring something new to the table, call it something new. Don't mix unrelated terms in a monster called ClearType HD Display.

<comment><USER48> Something new, and meaningful too. Retina is a specific reference to the limits of the human eye, it tells you pretty directly what DPI a display should have at a given viewing distance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> From a marketing perspective, the video on the site is terrible compared to Apple's iPad site. If you go here:

<http://www.apple.com/ipad/>

You see someone using an iPad, how big it is, how simple it is to use, what it's capable of doing, and you can immediately think the possibilities.

Microsoft's video shows some dark crumbling rocks and dust, and this strange tablet device with different colored keyboards. There is some shaking and wind blowing and hammering. It barely scratches the surface (ha ha) of what the device can do.

I can't impute any desirable value here except from what I can derive from other Windows devices, which is that the thing will probably require Norton AntiVirus and will blue screen on occasion.

<comment><USER50> I think they just wanted to get some excitement going, and it looks like they've met that goal.

<comment><USER49> Yeah I can see that. The Surface might even be a superior product, but my point is the marketing fails to demonstrate that.

<comment><USER49> Here's an article describing hands-on use: [http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/18/technology/microsoft- surface...](http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/18/technology/microsoft-surface- tablet/index.htm)

FTFA:

Microsoft on Monday unveiled one of the most imaginative and intelligently designed PCs the world has ever seen. Or: Microsoft unveiled yet another iPad copycat, only with fewer apps and a lower screen resolution.

Which one is it? It's impossible to know. That's because it's not clear yet what Surface, Microsoft's self-designed tablet PC, truly wants to be.

This is problematic from a marketing _and_ a product perspective. If you can't project the value of the device even when someone's using it, then it's hard to generate desire for it, and that spells trouble.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I don't see a sticker telling me what kind of processor is in inside, nor do I see a sticker telling me which version of Windows this is. I'm a bit confused.

<comment><USER52> Windows 8, Ivy Bridge i5. They are just doing the conference now so that may be why the details aren't up yet.

<comment><USER53> Heh, I think he was referencing the fact that nearly all consumer Windows devices are plastered with silly stickers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Microsoft is trying to straddle two models and risks failing at both. The Surface will apparently be both a touch based device but also a more traditional desktop. The problem will be when buyers expect desktop performance out of a lower power device. For applications that are designed for a touch interface from the start, it's comparatively easy to optimize for performance, or at least the appearance of performance and responsiveness. But load up something huge with a heavy footprint (Office/Outlook etc) and it's a different kettle of fish.

If MS can pull this off, while still hitting battery life and price points, hats off to them.

</comment><comment><USER54> "Unexpected error occurred." at <http://www.microsoft.com/surface/>

Not a good omen. (Edit: they fixed it.)

Without having seen the product, I'd say that its fortunes will be based largely on its price point. They need to have a compelling offering in the $499 range, or this is going to be a blip on the iPad/Kindle Fire market.

<comment><USER55> They would still have a chance in the business market.

<comment><USER54> That's what RIM thought. It's not clear that there's a "business tablet" market separate from the "consumer tablet" market.

Similarly, there was at one point a vibrant "business mobile phone" market as distinct from the "consumer mobile phone" market. That distinction has been erased, killing RIM in the process. The jury is out as to whether there will be a viable business tablet market. My money says no, that at a significantly higher price point than the iPad, business users will continue to buy laptops.

<comment><USER55> Execution is the thing.

<comment><USER54> I think we agree on that.

But this is also, of course, why I posted about the site crashing during the launch in the first place.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> While a horrible launch approach (no price, no availability, no info on cpu or ram) I will be keeping my eye on this, and looking for a chance to test drive in a brick/mortar.

This could become an amazing travel device, but not holding my breath.

<comment><USER57> I don't buy the complaint about CPU or RAM - featuring specs is not the way things are done anymore.

<comment><USER58> Waving shiny gadgets in the air without announcing price and (imminent) availabiilty is also not the way things are done anymore. And we _do_ have Apple to thank for that.

<comment><USER59> Exactly - I'm trying to think of a recent Apple product launch where they _didn't_ give the price up-front. Both the iPad and the iPhone, which were announced several months before they were launched, were given prices at the keynotes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Microsoft has a big event, announces new hardware and doesn't announce price or availability?

<comment><USER61> This is why I'm very skeptical about this.

They probably won't ship until the end of this year.

HP & Microsoft announced the Windows Slate tablet back in 2010 & it never made it to market.

[http://gizmodo.com/5442200/hps-windows-7-slate-device- reveal...](http://gizmodo.com/5442200/hps-windows-7-slate-device-revealed-by- steve-ballmer)

<comment><USER48> Huh? I've used an HP slate, I have a friend who owns one, you can buy one right here:

<http://www.amazon.com/HP-Slate-500-8-9-Black/dp/B00465QM6Q>

<comment><USER62> They are pretty terrible, and a dead end in terms of Windows 8 support based on my experience.

<comment><USER48> Sure, but they exist. Using them as an argument that the Surface is merely vaporware is a non-starter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> People will bitch and whine, but you've got to hand it to Microsoft the Surface tablet is pretty appealing and I say that without any bias or affiliation with Microsoft. The video was a bit cheesy and very motion graphics oriented which is completely different to their regular style of low- budget looking ameteur product videos.

I won't contribute to the Microsoft is trying to compete with the Apple iPad debate but I will say you'd have to be an idiot to not at least try and challenge Apple's dominance in the tablet market which Microsoft is doing and is probably one of the only company that has the potential to succeed in doing so.

If the price is right, I'll definitely buy one of these. Using my heavy laptop on the train just isn't viable any more and I can't code on an iPad because it doesn't have a keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER55> Compare and contrast the the top thread here with the one on reddit. Obviously two different perspectives.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/v8yrl/microsoft_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/v8yrl/microsoft_announces_surface_tablet/)

The questions are:

        - Is the keyboard any good?
        - Is the stylus any good?
        - Is the integration any good?
        - Is the experience any good?

If Microsoft can get to yes for all 4 of those in a timely fashion, then they will at least have a business niche machine. Price will be less of a factor for machines that come out of the company budget.

Even if the app ecosystem doesn't take off immediately, Microsoft could strategically pick the right dozen apps to hold things down until then.

<comment><USER64> The technology discussion on reddit is almost always anti-Apple to the point where I would consider them obsessed. Coupled with the memes and jokes, there's just no comparison to HN discussion when new tech is announced.

<comment><USER27> Compared to the anti-MS sentiment thats oozing out of these comments?

<comment><USER64> The top comment is pro-MS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> This is seriously one of the most heavy handed, almost laughable attempts at being hip and cool I've ever seen. I thought it was a parody for a second.

Honestly could they scream any louder 'We are absolutely terrified of Apple. Please love us again.'

<comment><USER66> The fields on their specs page are killer.

"OS, Light, Thin, Clear, Energized, Connected, Productive, Practical, Configurable" Fire your marketing department. All of it.

<comment><USER67> I thought you were kidding. Talk about cheesy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Apple was smart to release the iPad 2 with a design that practically "had to have" a special cover. This allowed them to legally advertise the iPad's price at one amount even though the majority of their customers would really be paying more (i.e. $549 after shelling out for a $50 cover, instead of only the base $499 amount).

Microsoft probably has the same plan here. A cover that contains a keyboard can be even more expensive (say, $100 each instead of $50) and they can use profits from covers to mask the true cost of tablets.

Then again, they've said nothing about the price...

<comment><USER69> This is from the about page (<http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx>): "Surface comes with an integrated kickstand and a revolutionary, 3mm thin, pressure sensitive cover that doubles as a fully functioning keyboard and trackpad". If I had to guess they will probably charge somewhere around the $50-$100 amount for the "Type cover" which will probably be more preferable to use over the "Touch cover".

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> My client has started outfitting their sales reps with ipads complete with covers that double as a stand. After a few weeks, they wanted keyboards, after keyboards they wanted a stylus.

Personally, I think MS nailed it. This could be just a tablet to some people, but it can be a whole lot more to the enterprise.

Now to see the pricing...

<comment><USER71> So your client gave its its sales reps iPads when they needed laptops? :)

<comment><USER70> No, they had laptops. The problem that Microsoft will solve is that people want to have a low powered device that can be a laptop sometimes and a tablet other times.

<comment><USER72> The place where this could do well is people who want tablet computers but also need something that integrates nicely with active directory and the rest of the corporate Windows infrastructure.

The problem I have with all in one type devices is that they are competing with just buying one of each, at a time when hardware prices seem to be tumbling.

If your top sales guys ask for a tablet and a laptop maybe you just give them one of each, rather than worrying about whether you can save a couple of hundred $ with some all in one device that does neither especially well.

Also a lot of corporate workers do their work primarily using one or two bespoke corporate apps which may be either web apps or some .Net (or even VB6) app. In this case they want to roll out a lot of cheap devices but they may not really care about portability because they don't want the devices taken out of the building.

The other thing I wonder about is how good the paradigm of a keyboard plus a touchscreen really is without a mouse, especially considering how cheap a basic mouse is. One of the companies I do a lot of work for uses PCs that have touch screens in addition to mice, but in reality the touch screen is almost never used. I imagine this is mainly because the amount of arm movement required to move your right hand over to the mouse is significantly less than it is to raise it to a screen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> The Win8Pro version has about the same 42 W-h battery size as in the new iPad. I doubt it can manage the same battery life, especially if it has to have vents.

<comment><USER73> On the flip side, as it runs full Windows, it's also your laptop.

For reference, I can get ~6hrs out of my 13" MBA, which packs a 50Wh battery. Going to guess the Surface Pro is running a lower-clocked part (as the 11" does, presumably for heat reasons), so with good power-management software at least 6-7hrs doing tablet-y things is definitely plausible. Obviously, opening Visual Studio or Photoshop will constrain that a bit, but these are things one can't do on an iPad.

<comment><USER74> Most consumers don't use Photoshop or Visual Studio.

What do MOST consumers need full Windows for these days?

Office? Most consumers could get by on iWork.

I guess if they want to use their favorite virus scanner or anti-malware program they would now be able to do that.

Windows dominates the market for consumer PCs because it's cheap and because of games. These same games will not work well on tablets. iOS already has enough games, Windows is at a severe disadvantage in terms of touch friendly games.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Good to see MS trying to compete with the iPad. Not sure that they'll have any more success than the Android based systems, but at least they're not ceding the market to Apple.

I'll be very interested to see how the OEM partners view this.

The key will be in pricing. If it's $499 for the base version, it might have a chance. Pricing it "on par with Ultrabook-class PCs" will leave it Zuned.

I'm also surprised that Microsoft was able to keep this under wraps for this long.

</comment><comment><USER75> Video requires Silverlight. Here is the Youtube version. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dpzu3HM2CIo)

</comment><comment><USER76> As a loyal Microsoft user/apologist for decades now, I have to say that i'm cringing pretty hard after watching the coverage of this. This falls into pretty much the same form factor as the failed netbook, with no discernible distinction. Watching Microsoft throw itself off a cliff with everything from Win 8 to this tablet is very difficult to watch.

</comment><comment><USER77> One word : Fail.

They have gotten better at presentation, but they missed one key point of Apple presentations.

Apple has learned that "Ships Today" is as important as the technology being sold.

So who cares what it CAN do, its not available now. Its not even available tomorrow, its available soon. All they did was give Apple a bigger opportunity to undercut their buzz.

<comment><USER78> If you're marketing only to consumers. Corporations who tend to purchase this sort of thing typically plan their purchasing months in advance. I can almost guarantee many companies who might have been thinking about laptop purchases are going to wait a few months.

Also the release date for the device is tied to Windows 8, which is looking like October, and then the pro version will follow 3 months after.

Since product lifecycles are somewhat lengthy, this doesn't really give any competitor an advantage aside from using the products they already had in their pipeline.

<comment><USER79> Two issues:

Firstly most corporations are just finishing up their multi-year Windows 7 rollouts so will probably be sitting out Windows 8. Given that corporate IT likes to do evaluations, certifications and such you are probably looking at least 12-18 months from now before any of these tablets are deployed on a large scale.

Secondly a lot of corporations are scaling back from providing anything more than the basic desktop or laptop and embracing BYOD for everything else. Even if its a knock out product its going to be difficult to justify spending money to roll it out especially given the other potential upgrades required (new monitors etc).

If they had announced and launched this 2 years ago I think a lot of corporations would have sat up and taken note. Announcing it now and with it not shipping for up to six months it's too little too late.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER80> Why not offer video options, instead of shoving silverlight in our throat.

</comment><comment><USER81> Just noticed from the Win8Pro version, _"Pen with Palm Block"_ a nice innovation Apple hasn't bothered with yet. Question I want to know is, _"can you develop"_ applications for the tablet, on the tablet?

<comment><USER48> The answer has to be yes, at least for the intel version. It runs full Windows 8 Pro on an x64 cpu. There's no reason you won't be able to fire up Visual Studio on that sucker (other than perhaps performance considerations).

<comment><USER81> beaut, I see the distinction b/w RT & 8 Pro here ~ [http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface- tablets...](http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-surface-tablets-the- differences-between-rt-and-window/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> The keynote talk ([http://cdn-smooth.ms- studiosmedia.com/news/mp4_mq/06182012_S...](http://cdn-smooth.ms- studiosmedia.com/news/mp4_mq/06182012_Surface_750k.mp4)) is informative. At about minute 14, the demonstrator tries to show how IExplorer works on the tablet. It fails. He keeps clicking here and there to try to restart it, then he clues in that folks can see him doing this and he points it to his chest, card-player style. Then he sprints to the podium to get another machine. I felt for the poor guy.

</comment><comment><USER83> I was pretty excited about this device as well. Until I downloaded and played with Windows 8. Windows 8's inconsistent and confusing UI blows. The Metro integration into Windows 8 looked like a last minute decision because most apps still have the Aero interface.

Microsoft has realized that the hardware to software integration is crucial to a great user experience. However, they spent so much time on the hardware of this tablet that I'm wondering if the Windows 8 software can match.

That said if this tablet is under $600, it will sell like hotcakes.

</comment><comment><USER84> Microsoft couldn't choose between ARM and x86 and this will be a huge problem for them. It's emblematic of the terrible position that they're in, trying not to be left behind while trying to refresh and extend their aging desktop OS monopoly. These products do nothing well. A stylus? That's a bullet on a PowerPoint, not a compelling feature. I felt sad watching them retell their passionless internal talking points while giving a more pathetic version of an Apple launch.

<comment><USER20> Why choose? Apple doesn't choose, they use both. The two architectures are used for completely different purposes; they both have significant advantages and significant disadvantages. The consumer can choose which one has the better featureset for their use case.

An active digitizer stylus which allows graphic designers and note takers to write on the screen while rejecting finger input _is_ a compelling feature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> Xbox Live integration is still the trojan horse on this device.

<comment><USER86> It's really been more of a trojan donkey on Windows Phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> Yuck, it looks like you can't use it w/o a table top so it's useless on a plane, or train , or couch. It's like a half ass competitor to both iPad and MacBook Air.

<comment><USER88> I don't think it was meant to be a competitor to the Air, although we'll have to wait on the pricing to see what Microsoft is actually trying to do here. But in all probability this is an iPad competitor, and iPads fall short in the exact same way in all those situations as well.

Also, planes generally have trays, and reclining in a couch puts your waist at about hands level, so both of those aren't really that gimped by this setup. Living in America I can't speak much for train travel but I would think they'd have some kind of tray, but I could be wrong.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> The good: 1\. the magnesium body is tough and very weather resistant. Similar to Nikons current camera line. 2\. stand and keyboard built in make this a machine you can do very serious work on 3\. 600 dpi sample rate for drawing means serious design work can be done as well. 4\. Like the Xbox, Zune HD, natural keyboard, arc mouse, and their live cams: When Microsoft decides to design it usually is awesome.

the bad: 1\. They said how much they believe in their partners yet only one application was shown off (lightroom). No special hardware or software partnerships. 2\. No discussion on ports, actual cpu speed, ram, bus speed, or video capability. 3\. no discussion of pricing. 4\. The names are confusing for consumers: windows rt, surface, etc. they should have just said its all windows 8. Windows 8 for arm and windows 8 for intel. easy. 5\. It was not available the day of the anouncement.

The BIGGEST problem: They did not show how this device is worth buying as part of your Micosoft ecosystem of experience and devices. How does it work with windows phone? they did not show it doing tricks with xbox and smartglass. They did not show how this device should be important to you.

</comment><comment><USER90> Ignoring all the judgement we're passing on this product, a good engineering effort deserves praise. Looking at this segment of the presentation (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ#t=41m32s>), with my extremely limited understanding of manufacturing and physics, I am truly surprised how they managed to fit so much functionality into 3mm.

</comment><comment><USER91> Nice, keyboard built into the cover (with trackpad).

</comment><comment><USER92> The Windows button is oriented horizontally. That's an interesting choice. Is metro not really designed to be used on vertical orientation?

<comment><USER93> Both [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- US/library/windows/apps/hh46542...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- US/library/windows/apps/hh465427#decide_how_to_layout_your_app)

> Decide how to lay out your app in each view. Windows 8 supports landscape, > portrait, snapped, and fill views. Users can put your app in any of these > views at any time, and you want your app to look and work great in each one.

<comment><USER92> Yeah, I thought I read that it works both ways. This device is clearly meant to be used in a horizontal orientation though based on the ports, the cameras and the Windows button. I guess it's positioned as more of a laptop replacement than a tablet, so it kinda makes sense. It's an interesting choice though. I don't own any tablets, but I was under the impression that most people use them in a vertical orientation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER94> I think this is a step forward for Microsoft, and besides, end-users will benefit form the Microsoft-Apple competition. They innovate and we get better devices :)

Im an Apple user, but earn my living as a system admin for windows and linux servers. I get all my work done from my hackintosh , and if nothing changes probably will not go back on using windows anytime soon. I truly hate windows, especially Vista which made me turn to Mac OS and never look back.

Despite all this I will never become so narrow minded as most apple fanboys and dismiss everything new.

I'm tired of reading/hearing: "Apple has already done this, Microsoft stoled their ideea", "Apple knows the right way to make a product", "This will never work for Microsoft", "Microsoft failed again", "OMG look at the product page, Its crap so the product must be a pile of dong too!"

Common people, what is wrong with you?

I say good job Microsoft, finaly something promising. How well it would do in the real world remains to be seen, but I think there is a huge market for this device.

</comment><comment><USER95> Have seen a pre-production device in Bangalore manufactured by Samsung.

I expect Pricing and distribution would be announced by Samsung in a seperate event .

The tablet app I saw looked good but it had touch responsiveness issue, and internet access was slow, saw the app crash and restart , but not sure if that was hardware related as it was a beta app.

<comment><USER96> Are you sure you're not thinking of the BUILD tablet, running the Developer Preview (roughly akin to an alpha)? Unless I'm mistaken, the Surface is a Microsoft Hardware product, distributed by Microsoft under the Microsoft brand.

</comment></comment><comment><USER97> This device doesn't look like it will work well in my lap. I use a 5 year old laptop that I'm pretty happy with. I have a tablet that I never use but that's mostly because I don't like touchscreen interfaces, except on phones where they are lesser of 2 evils (the other evil being super-tiny keyboards).

<comment><USER98> Unless you have a very short lap, why can't you do this?

        +  +
        |ta|
        |kb|
        ----

Where the +s are your knees, "ta" is tablet, "kb" is keyboard, and the ---- is your waist.

<comment><USER73> There's no solid hinge to keep the screen at a comfortable angle. Even with the kickstand, if you move your knees, the kickstand falls out of place.

<comment><USER99> It's astonishing to me how little discussion there has been of this. One of the primary places people use a laptop is, well, in their lap, and this doesn't look to be usable for that. I can't imagine that not being hugely frustrating.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER100> My wife has a bad back, and even carrying a 13" laptop around for and extended time causes her a lot of pain. She would kill for a tablet with a keyboard that she could use for work while traveling (mostly, power point, word and a bit of Excel).

Now, if only her company (60k+ employees) would upgrade from XP...

</comment><comment><USER101> The problem is that you never know how long Microsoft will stand behind any of their hardware products. They held firm with Xbox, they surrendered with everything else. Last year, they canned their tablet plans. This year, they come back with a new tablet plan. Etc.

Hysterical or desperate? I do not know.

</comment><comment><USER102> The only reason to announce hardware more than 6 months prior to availability is to deter people from buying iPads and Macbook Airs in the meanwhile.

I've played with Win8 running on an Atom tablet and while the hardware sucked, the idea of being able to do real work on legacy apps (Photoshop, 3DS Max, video editing etc) on it is nice. The x86 Surface is definitely a laptop replacement.

Not convinced about Metro yet though - depends on the apps we'll see on it I guess.

I also have an iPad with the Logitech Ultra Thin BT keyboard cover and I really like it. If only iOS had CMD/TAB keyboard shortcut for swapping between apps and more open file system I could do a fair bit of web dev work on it. My 13" Macbook Pro feels like a brick compared to the iPad+keyboard cover.

Still can't do Photoshop/3D/etc work on the iPad though.

</comment><comment><USER66> I'm not sure how I feel about this. I feel like there's nothing "new" here. Can someone prove me wrong?

<comment><USER103> The smartcover-with-keyboard thing is pretty impressive.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's what I thought at first and then thought 'I bet that feels like typing on a microfiber cloth, and the keys can't have much travel, if any at all.

<comment><USER104> Can't imagine it being worse than typing on a glass plate where the virtual keyboard takes up screen real estate. However the real question is how well using the touchscreen works while in upright mode, perhaps it's not that stable and touching it will wobble/move it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER105> It looks cool but what is with Microsoft's naming conventions. Apparently the official name for this product is "Surface for Windows RT," as it is referenced here:

<http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx>

<comment><USER106> i just don't understand why they named the OS after the API it's restricted to, something consumers will never encounter. the end result of WinRT is just Metro, something marketable and relatable. why the hell don't you just call it Windows Metro, Microsoft?

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> Can anyone explain the timing and placement for this announcement? Why now and why outside of a major conference and on such short notice?

Is it supposed to be a hip marketing ploy or is there something else happening they wanted to announce ahead of?

<comment><USER79> I'm wondering this as well. The only thing I can come up with is Google IO is next week. Maybe Microsoft got wind of something and wanted to get this out ahead as a spoiler.

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> Silverlight video. Ugh.

<comment><USER109> The video played in Flash, via YouTube for me.

I don't have Silverlight installed, maybe it fellback to Youtube?

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> All well and good. But the UI divide between Metro and Win 7 is just there.. I see no attempt to change any aspects of the traditional windows UI. Metro still seems to be a shell unable to hide the real UI underneath.

</comment><comment><USER45> Does anyone know if Windows 8 (or whatever is powering the Pro version) is resolution independent? Or will developers have to compile a version for the Surface Pro, and a different version for the x86 desktop market?

</comment><comment><USER111> At first glance I thought it was a dual screen (MS Courier's big brother) with the lower screen as the keyboard.

I liked the Courier concept I wish Microsoft released it, the Courier would have be a perfect match with Windows 8.

</comment><comment><USER112> Microsoft Surface == enterprise manageable tablets. IT organizations familiar with managing fleets of ubiquitous Windows workstations (desktop or notebook) will be able to now manage cheaper Windows convertibles.

Similar to how Apple (and Microsoft, and Google) would drop machines in schools to indoctrinate the next generation, Microsoft is going after users where they use computers the most: in the office.

Those that do not get "Surface" per se, will at least be familiar with it in a few years, after they have been exposed to other Windows 8 profiles at work (or on new home computers).

</comment><comment><USER113> i can't believe they've got the windows logo on the front bezel. super ugly and distracting. even apple, who loves its logo as much as any corporation, kept the front of the ipad logo-free.

<comment><USER114> It looks to be some sort of "Home" button. I suspect the icon is intended to match the "Windows Key".

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> I think what is great about the Surface line is that now other OEMs will have to design and produce even better hardware to compete. This is very good news for the consumer.

</comment><comment><USER116> I'm really hopeful for a tablet (read: something light with a decent interface) where I can do general-purpose computing (read: install my own stuff and have reasonable processing power) so I really hope this succeeds on these levels. Some of the ideas at least are very worthy.

Having said that, there is nowhere near enough detail to make an informed judgement on anything yet (except the PR strategy - which is [pretty laughably] a poor imitation of what Apple does).

Still. We live in hope.

</comment><comment><USER117> Quite promising from someone who has bean dead* for at least 5 years. :)

* <http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html>

</comment><comment><USER118> Using the Surface name is a total sleazy Microsoft move. The table has nothing whatsoever to do with the "Surface" technology they developed unless the screen can magically detect the specially coded or shaped components that a Surface table can detect.

And if Apple released a new product with the joke of a website and spec sheet that MS just did they'd be scorn of anyone that knows how to type.

<comment><USER119> The web-site is bad; but you have to give Microsoft credit where it is due: the new device is something new and does push what it means to be a tablet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER120> Does anyone know the estimated retail price for it?

<comment><USER121> Probably in the iPad range, I can't imagine a successful tablet being more expensive than the iPad.

<comment><USER86> I'd expect to see at least the pro variant in the ipad-laptop price range, since it fills the role of both a laptop and a tablet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER122> Funny that the spec sheet is a PDF, which none of Microsoft's shipping operating systems or browsers have native support for.

</comment><comment><USER123> How you can tell they don't get it in one sentence (tucked in the bottom right corner):

"Images are design renderings and not photographs."

<comment><USER96> Oh come on. That is possibly the most absurd criticism I've ever heard. They "don't get it" because their marketing team used a design rendering instead of a photograph? Clearly, a product shouldn't be judged on features, user experience, price, reliability, performance, or potential for changing the market. It should be judged on whether the little glossy pictures on the website were photos that were 'shopped until they might as well be faked or CGI renderings that are pretty much good enough to be real.

<comment><USER123> It's not absurd. It's premature on their behalf. What was preventing them from waiting until they had a physical prototype to show off? Nothing. In this light, it looks like an idea that _may_ exist, not something consumers can actually get their hands on. Further, no, it should be judged on more than just the pictures. I fully agree with all of the others comments that elicit disappointment for a lack of feature/spec lists and pricing. The whole thing is botched.

<comment><USER96> They showed off a working physical prototype at the press conference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER124> I just see how ad designers for that picture/video prepare their creatives on their macs and fill dirty for selling their souls to M$.

That also brought me another memory: Zune. So much hype and so poor results.

Microsoft should stick with desktop/business software and keep milking it. MS is not capable of doing anything else profitably anymore.

<comment><USER125> Keep in mind they've sold a lot of Xbox 360s and Kinects. Not sure how much profit they've made, but it shows MS can make commercially successful, desirable hardware.

<comment><USER124> Microsoft invested way more in gaming division than it made.

I doubt Microsoft would ever recover that investment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER126> Pros: Keyboard as cover USB

Cons: Thicker (and probably heavier) than the iPad

I have to say, Windows 8 is looking pretty good for touchscreen devices.

<comment><USER127> The RT (ARM) version is slightly thinner than the iPad. 9.3mm vs the iPad's 9.4mm. It is about 25g heavier, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER128> Anyone happen to know if it uses their new ultra-responsive (1ms) touchscreen technology? I remember being pretty excited about that when they demoed it, but it seemed like it wouldn't be rolled out for a while.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4>

</comment><comment><USER129> I didn't see anywhere a way to adjust the angle of the stand. I constantly change the angle of my laptop monitor, and sometimes even the one at work.

Now this device would want me to adjust myself to stand at the right angle looking it. Hopefully it would be still readable from other angles, but then how would you touch it?

</comment><comment><USER130> Watched the video. It appears MS is making a magnetic keyboard! ...And you get some sort of a tablet with it.

</comment><comment><USER131> Is there some visual distortion going on or is that tablet really thick? Reminds me of the newton.

[http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/publishingimag...](http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/publishingimages/new/gallery_3_large.jpg)

<comment><USER132> It's .2mm thinner than the iPad.

<comment><USER133> Only if you don't count all the important bits they've crammed into the "cover" (e.g., the accelerometer).

<comment><USER134> The fact that the cover has an accelerometer shouldn't be interpreted to assume that the tablet doesn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER135> Can I install Linux?

<comment><USER136> On the x86 one, sure. On the ARM one, no. OEMs are not allowed to enable user key enrollment on ARM devices.

<comment><USER137> Um, not necessarily with UFEI and firmware locking. I'd say until someone gets their hands on one, that it's a big unknown.

<comment><USER136> The UEFI spec calls for allowing user enrollment of keys, or at the very least disabling the checks. It can be done, this has been discussed to death here already.

<http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html>

edit: recoiledsnake makes an interesting point above.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER138> The keyboard on the cover looks very cool. Definitely attacking iPad and Air at the same time.

</comment><comment><USER139> "Hands off entertainme"? Who designed the mobile version of the Surface website? [https://twitter.com/designdaisuki/status/214878299669790720/...](https://twitter.com/designdaisuki/status/214878299669790720/photo/1)

</comment><comment><USER140> On the homepage: "Images are design renderings and not photographs."

they are far from releasing it.

<comment><USER48> They demoed a working one at the press conference. I would be shocked if this didn't release the same day as Windows 8.

<comment><USER140> Oh ok, what did you think of it?

<comment><USER48> I was pretty impressed. It's a huge indication that MS is taking the evolution of the computer very seriously and are making a very strong response.

For myself, I'm interested in the device and I may end up buying one, it looks like it could suit my needs very well. However, what's good for me may not be good for MS. I fear that Windows 8 may not be enough of a seamless, hassle- free experience for the average user as the iPad seems to be. If MS only gets the high-end power users in the tablet and PC market I think they have a very real risk of get squeezed out of the market between android, apple, and linux. This is a strong move, and they're still at the top of the market, but the market has been disrupted and they need _several_ strong moves to keep on the top of the game.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER141> Anyone knows how the cover keyboard is built ? is this a 'fake' dumb plastic molded keyboard using a capacitive layer underneath ? I wish it is, so that the whole keyboard could be an analog sensing surface if needed.

</comment><comment><USER142> "Unexpected error occured." ?

</comment><comment><USER143> The tablet looks nice, but the keyboard looks as if it will be one of the worst keyboards in the history of the universe. As someone who loves the idea of a convertible tablet, I really do hope that I'm wrong.

</comment><comment><USER144> Their launch video is almost as tacky as the Asus Padphone's... where's the taste these days?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqjoRMHyYQc>

</comment><comment> el-mapache Did they run out of money to design the back or something? They can't have Jony Ive but was there no one else they could hire to approximate 60s era Braun? Like a 4th year design student?

<comment><USER145> I know - I opened the site and my first thought was, oh it looks quite nice. Then went to gallery and my heart sank that no-one had bothered to look at the thing side-on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER146> Let's talk a little about 'kickstand'.

Am I wrong in believing this hasn't got adjustable angle and is useless if the device isn't on an actual desk?

Seems like the Achilles' heel of the entire device to me.

<comment><USER147> That seems to be true. It also seems to lack the ability to lay flat on a slightly elevated angle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER148> Some future popularity could come down to how flexible they are with that USB port. Can you plug in a thumbdrive and watch videos or play music? Extract or back-up photos?

<comment><USER93> It's Windows. Of course you can plug in a thumb drive. Everything you can do on Windows, you'll still be able to do on Windows.

</comment></comment><comment><USER149> After reading several reviews, and looking at MS Surface website, I am still not clear what this is. Is it going to run full featured Windows OS? Whats the price point going to be? Is 10.2 inch keyboard really going to make it possible for me to type things fast? (Remember those notebook keyboards? I could not really type on it). Is Microsoft going to build hardware for this? If no, who is building it? When is it going to be available on the market? Oh common give me something. All I get it, is Microsoft now has a tablet, which has a keyboard. thats it... cmon. I need bit more details than that.

<comment><USER150> If you read "several reviews" and still don't know that it will run Windows 8 then you have issues beyond what tablet to buy next.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Can't wait to see how well the Pro version runs with Norton or McAfee burning up cpu cycles. Hope that's not the "desktop" experience they're aiming for.

<comment><USER151> Win8 comes with built-in antivirus. But of course you can buy Norton or McAfee if you like. In which case you have bigger problems than your CPU cycles.

<comment><USER45> And if the corporate world is a large target for the Surface, then it'll be expected to run with A/V software from the big vendors, regardless of what MS bundles with it. I have to run McAfee on each and everyone of my RHEL servers, despite the majority of them not having unfettered access to the Internet nor an email client.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER152> _off-topic, meta_ In my brief survey of the home page, this is the only article with more comments than points. I wonder how often that happens.

</comment><comment><USER122> Actually the "ClearType Display" makes sense if they cannot provide Retina- like screens at reasonable price and have to settle for subpixel rendering…

<comment><USER99> If so, then either you can't use it in portrait mode or text looks significantly worse when you do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER153> Watched the video - what struck me most is that it felt just like TopGear - when they introduce a new supercar and they have a minute or so intro.

</comment><comment><USER154> Seems really interesting, I'm just hoping we can get at least a little bit of the 'spirit' of the courier on the design of the Microsoft "surface"

</comment><comment><USER155> I'm curious what J. Allard (MS Courier) is thinking about this piece of technology. Especially about the one with the pen.

Hello enterprise ready tablets!

</comment><comment><USER156> Honestly... as much as this might sound interesting, I don't understand Microsoft's decision to not announce availability OR pricing.

</comment><comment><USER157> that video was hilarious. Microsoft really outdid themselves this time. And what was with the weird dimensions of the video player?

<comment><USER158> Who cares!?! It's world's first dubstep tablet!

<comment><USER159> nah, I'm wating for the drum and bass remix...

edit: googled "dubstep tablet", first link [http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-surface-tablet-on- video...](http://www.neowin.net/news/microsoft-surface-tablet-on-video- complete-with-dubstep)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER160> Wow that thing looks almost exactly like a iPad with a smartcover. I thought they would have at least tried something different.

</comment><comment><USER161> As the price point is a deciding factor, do you think Microsoft will subsidize the Surface as they did with the XBox?

</comment><comment><USER162> Microsoft had the touch-surface interface back like a year before the iphone came out. But they rolled it out as a $10000 restuarant/menu interface instead of a computing/consumer device one. Classic good tech/bad customer targeting failure. [http://www.microsoft.com/en- us/news/press/2007/may07/05-29ms...](http://www.microsoft.com/en- us/news/press/2007/may07/05-29mssurfacepr.aspx)

<comment><USER163> That Surface, the table thing, was based on multiple IR cameras tracking finger interactions. It was never miniaturizable to a portable device.

Not good tech, wrong market -- totally different tech, niche market.

(also it debuted 5 months after the original iPhone, for whatever that's worth)

<comment><USER73> I believe the current round of e-readers actually use IR-based touch sensors. Still wouldn't compete on a phone for marketing reasons (thanks to the need for a sunken-in screen), but definitely shrinkable.

<comment><USER163> They do! But those IR touch screens are actually different technology again from the quite literally cameras that the Surface used.

IR touch screens like the ones the Sony reader and Kindle use have been around for ages in POS machines and the like.

On the other hand the Surface (table) was using computer vision algorithms on realtime near-IR images of the table surface to recognize multiple touches and gestures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER164> I'm impressed. Good looking hardware, and you can do actual work on it. I hope it's priced competitively too.

</comment><comment><USER165> Does the color of the windows and background changes to the color of the keyboard as soon as we attach it ?

</comment><comment><USER166> Simply having a full-sized keyboard gives this product the edge over Asus Transformer series.

</comment><comment><USER167> 'Looks nice. I bet it's expensive. If price were a feature, they would have mentioned it.

</comment><comment><USER168> Does it do landscape only? I can't find an image displaying the device in portrait.

</comment><comment><USER169> Twitt? Do people say that? (On the right, in the grey, between the two Microsofts.)

</comment><comment><USER170> thinking as an average consumer I can only look at this as a marginally uglier (looks like it's lower quality) and thicker tablet. if isn't significantly cheaper than the ipad why should i buy it?

</comment><comment><USER171> I wonder if Microsoft's new keyboard will work with my iPad.

<comment><USER172> It is easier to carry two flat objects around when they have the same dimensions and can be "stacked up" against each other, but this cover cannot have anything close to the same dimensions as an iPad because they have drastically different aspect ratios (what looks like 16:9 versus the 4:3 of the iPad).

</comment></comment><comment><USER173> when you can't beat them, join them.

</comment><comment><USER174> Touchscreen MacBook Air anyone?

</comment><comment><USER175> Yes please.

</comment><comment><USER176> 'Coming soon'

Doesn't count unless you ship.

</comment><comment><USER177> [OT] 40K likes and 0 tweets? Something seems wrong here.

</comment><comment><USER178> Is the OS for this Windows 8 or modified Windows Phone?

<comment><USER179> Windows 8. They plan to ship two models: one to run full Win 8 Pro on Intel with Metro and traditional UI, and another ARM-based with Windows 8 RT.

</comment></comment><comment><USER180> is this a joke? their gallery page images link directly to the images in the most unprofessional way. could've at least lightboxed it.

<comment><USER181> Whatever was serving their .js files seemed to be down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER182> Microsoft invented the iPad!

</comment><comment><USER183> I generally hate Microsoft stuff (including Windows 8), but this is a refreshingly original and good design (personal opinion, of course.) Since Zune and XBox, Microsoft seem to have sharpened their game to the point where they are capable of delivering small, compact, and useful hardware which functions well. Some people mocked the Microsoft Mouse in the initial stages of the presentation, but come to think of it, most people I know prefer Microsoft's ergonomic laptop mice to Apple's Mighty Mouse, which, quite frankly, is rubbish.

Priced at the right point, this could take aim at a number of different devices, which it seems to fit at the smooth spot between:

\- Stylus-capable tablets you can actually write on (IBM x series)

\- Small media-capable tablets like the iPad/Kindle Fire (for consuming eBooks, media and the Web).

\- eBook readers like the standard Kindle. I don't know what digital Ink capable means, but if it goes any way towards making eBooks more readable than they are on the Fire/iPad, consumers will buy this device just so they don't have to buy different things for watching videos and reading books with lesser eyestrain.

I bet that both this and the Lumia and other Windows phones are going to be massive in markets like India, which know Microsoft and Nokia well, and have never seen much of Apple tech.

</comment><comment><USER136> [http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingasset...](http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingassets/surfacespecsheet.pdf)

WinRT (ARM) and a Intel version. Multitouch keyboard. Full HD on the Intel tablet on 10.6 inch screen (nearly the same density as the MBP Retina)

Also, funny the comments here, the iPad edges are tapered, but the RT version is 9.3mm and Apple says the iPad is 9.4mm deep.

Why oh why are they pushing Silverlight to show the video?

<comment><USER184> _WinRT (ARM) and a Intel version_

The dual CPU thing still worries me. I think it's going to cause a ton confusion for consumers when Windows 8 comes out. These two tablets look the same, they're named the same, they use the same accessories. One will cost more than the other. They look like a 13" MacBook Air vs 13" MacBook Pro.

But it _won't_ be, because they run completely different OSes. The ARM one won't run your old software. It won't run the windows desktop you're used to. Some big game comes out? I wonder if it will run on WinRT. Since all the devices will have lower specs, will AAA titles be available?

You could buy the more expensive one. I bet it has lower battery life. It won't come with Office, so not only do you have to pay $200 more for the device (random guess), but you also have to pay $100-$500 for a copy of Office on top just to match what's on the ARM tablet.

The tablets are clearly quite different. They should be positioned differently, they should look physically different.

I really want to see how consumers take to Intel vs. ARM. I can't help but think it's going to be a disaster.

As for these tablets? The cover looks great, and MS does know how to make hardware (I've _loved_ my Natural keyboards since '95 or '96). It's great to know there will be one device on the market that (should be) well made and not crazily under-specced for cost reasons.

But does all this make third parties very nervous. Are these "demo" units to start the market, or the first wave of MS competing directly?

<comment><USER20> Microsoft said on their technet blog that their ARM devices will be clearly labeled and marketed as not being able to run traditional Windows software.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER136> I'm intensely curious how one sits on the couch and uses this with the keyboard. I'm afraid it's not going to work...

<comment><USER99> Yep. There will be people buying them to replace laptops only to find that they can't use them in their laps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER185> The cover-with-keyboard looks like a great idea. Can't wait to give it a try.

</comment><comment><USER186> Zunepad

</comment><comment><USER118> How'd this get to #1 post so fast?

<comment><USER187> Are you suggesting this isn't newsworthy?

The company behind the most used OS by the mass market on the planet is announcing their own hardware for the next version of their OS. Their own hardware for their own OS is something they haven't done in their ~30 year history. How is this not major news?

<comment><USER188> Because "Their own hardware" is still just the same crap that all the other manufacturers would have come up with, (and did come up with) for Microsoft to put their badge on. It's not a technological leap forward nor does it drastically alter the user interface paradigm.

Worth seeing, Yes, but definitely not a top of the list worthy post.

<comment><USER94> I disagree with you, it is their customized hardware, I cant see them fitting standard computer components into a enclosure that thin. Almost everything is custom an for Microsoft it's a big technolohical leap because they've never done this before.

<comment><USER159> Before I read this I thought it was just some design and people going "WHOA" or "wtf" about it. But your comment made me understand. Sad that it's bottom of the list. There should have been something about the thickness consideration in the link description.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Junk science is putting innocent people in jail - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21615622-junk-science-putting-innocent-people-jail-two-towers

<comment><USER2> The defense lawyer was pretty incompetent. Even if the defendant was in the same park as the victim at the time of the murder, that's hardly proof beyond a reasonable doubt that she committed the murder.

And there's no excuse for a prosecutor trying to pressure an innocent victim into pleading guilty - they sent an innocent person to prison and possibly allowed the real murderer to keep on killing people. Unfortunately, this happens all the time.

<comment><USER3> The prosecutor doesn't know if the person is guilty or not. They believe they have enough evidence to prosecute. At that point, they're minimizing the public expense of prosecuting, by getting a guilty plea.

The problem is when the junk science makes everyone convinced of guilt. Once that happens, nothing good is going to happen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the fault is in the whole idea of giving reduced sentence for confessing. I understand that a confession is easier and there should be some incentive to make one, but it seems like the police coerce defendants into making confessions by threatening the longer sentence if there is no confession. While this may result in true confessions sometimes, it also inevitably results in some false confessions. It is just too easy for a prosecutor to make their evidence sound very strong in the absence of a judge and jury to scare the defendant into a confession.

<comment><USER5> The sadder thing is that the accused typically has so little faith in the justice system that they'll accept a "deal" rather than take their chances with a judge / jury.

That cynicism translates back into broader society and causes antipathy if not hostility in the general public towards the police. The whole thing creates much more harm than good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have been called for Jury duty probably seven times. The prosecution and the defense both have a limited number of potential jurers that can be rejected, and each time I ended up being passed over. Once, just after my company was sold, I was called while unemployeed and was selected to be on the jury.

We were instructed to not speak to the other jurors during the trial, but I had already decided that a stern looking oil and gas attorney on the jury would end up being a law-and-order throw-the-book-at-them type. Once we got into the jury room to decide the sentence I realized how wrong I was. Our first vote was 2 for acquittal (me and the attorney) and the rest leaning towards guilty.

The trial wasn't complicated, but I was alarmed that most of the jury had a very poor understanding of the evidence presented. I heard reasoning such as the following: "Well, I'm a Mom and I'm just very very against drunk driving." OK, but what the hell has that got to do with the evidence we heard? There were serious problems with the evidence presented and it took a couple of hours of discussion before it we eventually settled on not guilty.

Years later a lawyer here explained to me why the compositions of the juries is so frightening. The juror pool used to come from local property tax records. This was decided to be unrepresentative of the population and they moved to pools based on driving license records. Anyone with a driving license can end up as a juror. Many of the people that don't come up with excuses for why they shouldn't take a week away from work are those that you wouldn't trust with any kind of important decision.

I don't know how to fix this.

<comment><USER7> > The prosecution and the defense both have a limited number of potential > jurers that can be rejected

Well, an unlimited number can be dismissed for cause, and the prosecution and the defense have, on top of that, a limited number that each can unilaterally dismiss without cause (peremptory challenges.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Sounds like the blame is on the defence there for not challenging obviously flawed conclusions that any expert witness could have debunked TBFH - not to mention that being near a murder isn't enough for a conviction either.

</comment><comment><USER9> This very issue came up in this case: [http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/friends- for-life/](http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/friends-for-life/)

Worth watching

</comment><comment><USER10> Not paywalled for me. Running disconnect and ghostery?

<comment><USER8> Not paywalled for me either, and I _am_ running Disconnect, ABE, Privacy Badger, etc.

Edit: I think it's because I blocked cookies from them a while back when I got paywalled before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Paywall. Please consider only linking to accessible content.

<comment><USER12> as with all of these: google the link + access the page that way.

<comment><USER13> Opening in a private window also works for me.</comment></comment></comment>


Water purifier that creates electricity with no external power source - <AUTHOR> http://awareness-time.com/teenager-invents-water-purifier-that-creates-electricity-with-no-external-power-source/

<comment><USER2> The article has very few information. The original science project page (linked in the article) explains the details: [https://www.googlesciencefair.com/projects/en/2014/77b0af7d7...](https://www.googlesciencefair.com/projects/en/2014/77b0af7d78199d72bb8b7b077459fcc0c443cabde6ec353188e8c08dd551cb83)

Also, the electricity generation part still doesn't work, unless you put hydrogen in the device:

> _After the conduction of repetitive experiments, unfortunately there was not > an obvious electricity yield observed no matter which solution was used. > [...] As to prove that a significant amount of energy can be generate > through hydrogen fuel cell, an electrolyzer was prepared to generate > hydrogen._</comment>