Show HN: Emoji Homepage: Find your Emoji –  fast and  simple - <AUTHOR> http://emojihomepage.com/ <comment><USER2> I guess I will surprise _everyone_ when I say Emacs has something similar built in already (with the super-intuitive C-x 8 <RET>)? :)

<comment><USER3> ಠ_ಠ

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> For the record. The UI is based on the latest Vue 2.3.3. That's really a nice and easy to work with lib/framework. It was easier to understand and use it compared to when I tried React (half a year ago).

<comment><AUTHOR> p.s. I can't get it why this post is not showing in the "Show" section O_o

<comment><AUTHOR> p.p.s. maybe someone had to approve it. Thanks to whoever did that ^_^

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Reminds me of [http://charcod.es](http://charcod.es). Except charcod.es does fuzzy search on all characters. They even have a duckduckgo bang (!char).

</comment><comment><USER5> Instagram engineering did a blog post a while back on implementing emoji hashtags explaining (among other things) how some are represented by >1 unicode character. Pretty interesting read [0].

[0] [https://engineering.instagram.com/emojineering-part-ii- imple...](https://engineering.instagram.com/emojineering-part-ii-implementing- hashtag-emoji-7b653b221c82)

</comment><comment><USER6> Good work!

Only thing I see is when using a small screen, due to the "inline-block" property of the emoji, although it is responsive, the padding of the "emojis- wrapper" isn't equal both sides, so the emojis aren't centered. You could try forcing that for a super small improvement

</comment><comment><USER7> Searching 'cry' find the 'joy' emoji, but not the 'joy cat' emoji. Also, I feel that searching for 'droplet', should find all the emojis, that have a droplet in it ('joy', 'cry', 'sleep', and so on)

<comment><AUTHOR> I will definitely work on that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is there an API for this. I'm developing an application that is an Emoji journaling application. [https://emojilog.surge.sh](https://emojilog.surge.sh) This would help out with text-to-emoji parsing.

</comment><comment><USER9> Looks nice but I find it more convenient using ⌃ + ⌘ + Space on OSX.

<comment><USER10> I just turned on the "Show keyboard and emoji viewers in menu bar" option in preferences so I have the icon I can click in the top right of my screen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's pretty choppy in Firefox (no fault of your own, truth be told), but it is really slick in Safari. Nice work.

<comment><USER12> On Linux Ubuntu Chrome 60.0.3095.5 is pretty choppy, while Firefox 54.0a2 is smooth

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It doesn't show the diversified emoji, are you working on that?

Like the speed and search by the way, faster than emojipedia.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup, I have some ideas. Thanks for the kind words!

<comment><USER13> Works fine on Safari on iOS and Safari on MacOS by the way

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is there an emoji for :/ smilies? I couldn't find one the other day on Android and don't know what to search for but it's easily my most used smilie.

<comment><USER15> This[0] is meant to be :/

[0][http://emojipedia.org/confused-face/](http://emojipedia.org/confused- face/)

edit: HN strips out emoji. Not surprised in hindsight.

<comment><USER14> Oh, too bad it's so different. Thanks for the link though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> hate emoji, my gf is using HTC, I'm using iPhone and ... When she send me a kiss I'm seeing something different!!!

[http://emojipedia.org/kiss/](http://emojipedia.org/kiss/)

<comment><USER17> That's HTC's fault. The kissing lips emoji is different.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I wish emojipedia worked like this. Great job,

</comment><comment><USER19> Looks nice!

<comment><AUTHOR> Cheers, mate!</comment></comment>


There is no Keylogger in Samsung Laptops - <AUTHOR> http://ankitaggarwal.me/in-the-news/there-is-no-keylogger-in-samsung-laptops/

<comment><USER2> To me, the bigger question is:

How and why do so many supposedly tech-savvy people go about using black-box binaries they can't check out to see what they are doing?

I haven't had to worry about this sort of thing in ages.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's depressing how quickly the the rumour spread with nothing backing it up except for a single guy's poorly tested claims.</comment>


Building a text editor (Part 1): a wxHaskell tutorial - <AUTHOR> http://wewantarock.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/building-a-text-editor-part-1/

<comment><USER2> Does anyone have much experience with Haskell gui programming? I've noticed there are a bundle of different gui libraries, and was wondering which is generally considered the best (i) for getting real world stuff done and (ii) in terms of conceptual/theoretical merits, even if they are still a bit rough around the edges in terms of implementation.

<comment><USER3> None of them are very satisfying. I've used Gtk2Hs a fair amount, and it is solid. Conceptually it's very similar to the wxHaskell bindings (directly inspired by, if I'm not mistaken.) Of the three major cross-platform toolkits, Gtk+ is the most compatible with Haskell on account of it's C roots. Gtk can be used in a very procedural, not very OO kind of way. Since subclassing in C is such a bitch, Gtk+ is fairly easy to use without doing so: create some widgets, set their callbacks and go. Works fine from the IO monad, and using lambdas for the callbacks makes it actually quite enjoyable to use compared to C or C++ (as I imagine it is from OCaml, Lisp or any other such language.)

Qt on the other hand is very OO. You define the behavior of your widgets by subclassing. There are signals and slots, which are basically callbacks and thus very FP-friendly, but there are many things for which Qt doesn't use them (e.g., input) instead relying on C++ virtual methods. I'm looking over the qtHaskell docs now (which is just a wall-o-type-signatures) and it appears to have some kind of setHandler function for these virtual functions. I have no idea how this is supposed to work. AFAIK qtHaskell is just a one-man project, so it's understandably less mature than Gtk2Hs, considering the huge impedance mismatch between functional/imperative Haskell and OO C++.

As for wxWidgets, I have not used it, but as I understand it's mostly history. The Gtk2Hs team is large, active and contains many luminaries of the Haskell community, so that is where the action is at. Unfortunately though, it's Gtk+, so your "real world" better not have any Windows or Mac users in it.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you find freelance work? - <AUTHOR> I'm a software engineer with a full-time job, but I have lots of spare time in my off hours. I'd like to monetize this time, but finding freelance work has been extremely daunting.
I don't have a ton of networking skills, so I don't have a network I can tap for opportunities. I don't really know how to find opportunities otherwise. I have the approvals I need from my full-time job to do this, but it's still not something where I want to splash my name all over the place. I also don't have a lot of public code, so no big portfolio I can point people to.
I'm not looking for massive pay, just something to occupy my time and some side money. But I want to leverage my skills, not do mechanical turk work.
How do you find freelance work? <comment><USER2> > I'm a software engineer with a full-time job, but I have lots of spare time > in my off hours. I'd like to monetize this time

> I'm not looking for massive pay, just something to occupy my time and some > side money.

This opinion will change. I 100% guarantee it. A few years ago, I had the exact same reasoning for starting freelancing on the side. I even justified my desire for more paid work as "I'd be programming on personal things anyway."

So, I took a freelance job. I thought it'd take about 6mo of weekend work. And I took it at 40% of my normal day-job rate because, it was "friend" work, and, again, "I'd be programming anyway."

It took two years.

That was two years of nights and weekends that did not belong to me. Two years of not being able to devote time to exploring other technologies, learning new things, or just goofing off. I took vacations from my day job to work on my side project because I was so desperate to get it done and have freedom again.

The opportunity costs involved are absolutely massive and should be heavily weighed before deciding to take on more work.

<comment><USER3> It sounds like the issue here is more an issue of work conditions and rates, rather than a problem with the actual work.

A counter-anecdote: A couple years ago I decided to freelance on the side, but went the other way - I charged triple my day rate, and set a simple rule: no stress allowed. If the client had tight deadlines or a stressful personality, I didn't pursue them.

It's been a massively fun few years, and I've been able to pad my bank account while working when and if I want. It was hard to turn down some great opportunities that would have been stressful, but the biggest enemy isn't free time: it's burnout.

High rates and optimizing for lack of stress don't guarantee lack of burn out, but they go a long way.

<comment><USER4> You've got this figured out. Hoping for some additional tips, though my work is a different field.

I do freelance writing, like resume editing and copy for business websites. I have mostly worked when and as much as I wanted on projects I liked, but at low pay through a service where I can't build a portfolio because I am a ghost writer.

I am trying to figure out how to move away from that. Any thoughts on how to learn how to find clients, set rates, etc? I am struggling with this transition. I think I know a fair amount at this point about creating good writing for certain kinds of things, but I seriously lack business acumen when it comes to some of these specifics. And it's a serious barrier to closing deals.

<comment><USER3> Always more to learn, but I've been happy with the results so far.

My rule when I was unhappy with my rates was simple:

1\. Double my rates.

2\. If the client mentions my rates, but still agrees, then I haven't increased them enough. Go back to step 1.

3\. If the client says no because of my rates, I move on (this can be a good sign - if no one is turned away because your prices are too high, you don't have too high of prices). If enough potential clients say no because of my rates (50% lower conversion rate is break even when you've doubled your rates, so # of clients must more than half), then I lower my rates. I quickly climbed from $20/hour to my current rate using this strategy.

There's a nice effect here where higher rates suggest higher quality, which in turn attracts the right types of clients and makes them more willing to pay. I've also found that I want to give them $X/hour quality work, so I'm more focused and the quality increases as a result. Lots of happy feedback loops.

For your specific situation - do you have many repeat customers? One trick that worked well for me is to price my first project with a client at an introductory rate 20% lower than what I actually want to earn (positioned as a "first project discount"). When that project goes well and they come back for more work, the introductory rate doesn't apply, and you've earned yourself a 20%/hour bonus.

<comment><USER4> Thank you for the reply.

I have had repeat customers through the service I work for. It's a completely different ecosystem and doesn't translate to external clients. I like working for the service and I don't plan to leave it, but I want to also develop outside clientele.

Assume that trying to get clients outside that platform is a recent effort that I haven't pursued too hard, in part because I don't know how.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "I don't have a ton of networking skills"

Work on this. I have built my consultancy over the past 6 years and it started with me doing freelance and now we do over $1m/year in revenue.

I attribute the majority of success to networking. Here are some of the things I did early on (and still continue to some extent).

1\. Local meetups. Great place to show off, hear about leads, etc...

2\. Find influencers / networkers in your area and buy them coffee. Ask tons of questions and end with "Who else do you think I should be talking to?"

3\. Build stuff - I decided I wanted our team to be known locally for doing crypto dev, so I just started building cool stuff and showing it off at the local dev meetups. Now we have tons of crypt contracts!

Whatever you do, come at it with the attitude of wanting to contribute to the community using your gifts/skills. The work will follow.

Best of luck!

<comment><USER6> _I have built my consultancy over the past 6 years and it started with me doing freelance and now we do over $1m /year in revenue._

How many employees does your consultancy have including yourself?

 _Find influencers / networkers in your area and buy them coffee. Ask tons of questions and end with "Who else do you think I should be talking to?"_

I feel like something is missing here. The sales part, I imagine. Otherwise how does _simply_ asking people questions translate to business?

<comment><USER5> We have a mix of employees / contractors but usually hover around 9-10.

As far as asking questions, it's about the long game. I aim to build relationships with people and establish myself/my team as an authority on software dev.

Almost none of my meetings are "sales" meetings, in fact we never do advertising at all. All leads come from people who eventually want work or refer their colleagues. Some meetings pan out and others don't.

<comment><USER7> This a thousand times over.

Never sell yourself the first time you're meeting someone. Explain what you do and turn the conversation back the person you're talking to. People love hearing their own voice, so let them talk. Take a genuine interest in what they do and they'll remember you as a good person.

If you can help them, reach out the next day with the whole "I was thinking about X. We do Y, perhaps we could help." If you can connect them to someone who can solve their problem that isn't you, do that as well.

As the parent says, people remember and refer / think of you first when you're needed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> 1\. Identify a skill that you have, and other people want. The more succinctly you can describe it, the better. Programmer == bad. C# developer == better.

2\. Identify where people who need that skill spend time (meetups, clubs, slack groups, podcasts, discussion websites, mailing lists, etc).

3\. Spend time at these places, delivering value, and pitching your wares. If you can get on stage to present, even better. A strong effort in a few places will usually beat a weak effort in many places.

4\. Tell people you know that you are looking for gigs in your specific niche area.

5\. Find agencies, others who do this work and let them know you're available if they get too much work, or get clients that aren't a great fit.

6\. Most importantly, never be anonymous. This post is an example of a missed opportunity. Who knows, someone might have needed exactly what you're able to offer.

<comment><USER9> Programmer == bad. C# developer == better.

I am a full time job person at present so I am by no means an expert but this seems wrong to me. Aren't the majority of people who do the hiring for freelancers non-technical? As such pushing a particular tech seems like a bad idea. (I am always pretty skeptical of people who rant about how a particular tech will solve the problem rather than how to actually solve the problem. Heard "relational databases don't scale" too many time by people who have relatively small data sets).

<comment><USER10> A client that doesn't know what he wants is a bad client. Those kinds of people often have unrealistic expectations like "I want a website like Facebook for $500". Don't work for such people.

That leaves people who do know what they want. So let's look at it from their perspective.

Let's say they need a Windows desktop app.

Two people apply for the job.

You say "I'm a great programmer, here's a website I wrote".

The other guy says: "I'm an experienced C# programmer. In the past I've developed 3 Windows desktop applications in C#/WinForms and I can do the same for you".

If you were hiring, who would get the job.

This is not about pushing C# technology but a best match between what the client wants and what your skills are.

It's also not about C#.

What the OP meant is that if you have a specific skillset, you should market that skillset specifically. Both ruby backend programmer and an iOS mobile programmers are programmers, but when a client is looking for iOS mobile programmer, he'll pick someone marketing his "iOS programming skills" over someone marketing his "programming skills".

<comment><USER11> > A client that doesn't know what he wants is a bad client.

I disagree completely. A prospect who doesn't know what they want is an opportunity for the freelancer to _provide more value_ by finding a solution for them.

You're conflating "unrealistic expectations" with "I know I have a problem but I don't know what the solution is." The former is something to avoid. The latter should make cash-register sounds in your head because it's an opportunity to provide more value and charge accordingly.

<comment><USER12> I believe his main point is that a client that doesn't know what he wants also doesn't know how much to spend, _and sure doesn 't want to over-spend._

If you find someone that doesn't know what they want but is throwing cash around, sure, be the expert that leads them to digital nirvana.

Generally though, if they don't know what they want, they don't realize how hard it is and so will be in for some serious shell-shock when you tell them the price tag. At which point you're either lowering your rate to still do the work or you've wasted a lot of time talking to them (which they generally don't expect to pay for unless your forte isn't writing code but "being the expert that tells you what you want").

<comment><USER13> This is where you quickly educate the customer. It's no different than you calling a plumber, only to find out that what you thought would be a $50 job is really a $500 job.

If they seem like the type who doesn't understand the cost, you tell them "from your description you're already well into 5-figure development cost." Or "$500 is typically what you'd expect to pay for minor website content updates."

This ballpark pricing shouldn't take more than a few minutes to figure out. And it puts the ball back in their court to do more research and figure out if they can really afford the going rates.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Rate and job funnel is a function of portfolio strength.

1/ Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): [http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/](http://www.hyperfiddle- consulting.com/) (it can be a github markdown gist, host images on imgur or github might even let you copy/paste images into markdown now). You do not want to be coding javascript and html here. It needs to iterate fast. And it needs to be done yesterday. Use markdown. Or a google doc.

2/ your portfolio will suck at first, but now that it exists, you _feel_ that it sucks and now there is a driver function making you want to optimize it.

3/ post in the monthly HN freelancer thread, for example: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16495148](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16495148) . If you don't get gigs, iterate your copy. Say you'll do it for a low rate if it gives you open source commits. -> feeds into portfolio

4/ get screenshots of whatever gigs you can (if for example it is a public site, or you can embed stuff into a company github readme for example [https://github.com/wingspan/wingspan-forms#screenshots- from-...](https://github.com/wingspan/wingspan-forms#screenshots-from-large- real-world-project)) -> feeds into portfolio

5/ company doesn't do open source? Offer to open source some library or utility in your free time. I polished wingspan-forms over thanksgiving and christmas break 2013. It's a shitty library, nobody uses it. But it feeds into portfolio!

6/ spend at least one weekend a month writing a blog post, tips and trick for whatever javascript framework, or something -> feeds into portfolio

7/ go to a lot of local meetups, at least 1 a month, offer talks, your blog is the starting point for talks, speak at least twice a year -> feeds into portfolio

Freelancing is more work up front than wage slaving. But the sky is the limit as to how much you can make. Oh and cut the silly bullcrap about not good at networking blah blah whatever. Read a howto social skills book and show up at meetups.

<comment><USER15> > Right now, tonight, go make a portfolio like this one (mine): > [http://www.hyperfiddle-consulting.com/](http://www.hyperfiddle- > consulting.com/)

I see that you are a 2-person "shop" \- would you still have a "foo- consulting.com" personality if you were going solo? I'm kinda torn between the two.

<comment><USER16> I have a similar issue.

On any portfolio site I've attempted to build, I really dislike using the word "I" (e.g. "I can help you build a website!").. but using "we" seems disingenuious. (e.g. "We can help you with your programming woes!").

Recently though, I'm leaning towards "we" because it's better business-speak, the "we" seems less risky, and it may not be factually incorrect if you ever outsource any work.

Generally, I tend to avoid writing copy that uses pronouns altogether.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> What works best for me:

1) Local meetups and conferences linked to my niche

For example: I like to give talks at the local Python meetups. The sponsors tend to be companies that use or have some interest in Python.

First advice I give for new freelancers is to specialize. A newbie mistake is to think you may be restricting your options by choosing a door but believe me, behind that door is a hallway with hundreds of doors.

2) Stackoverflow careers

I respond to "help wanted" ads that allow remote - top quality leads. I'm not affiliated with stackoverflow (but I 30k+ rep there).

3) I blog about what my secret sauces

Some times I receive leads from my audience. It is also a good way to keep in touch with people I met at #1 as they are interested in the same subjects.

</comment><comment><USER18> 1\. You can try cold emailing the cofounders or department chiefs (CTO, VP of Growth, etc.) of small to mid-size companies with a product that requires dev work.

For example, you can try targeting startups who just raised a recent round (= more aggressive growth goals) to pick up some dev/engineering slack on a project basis as they scale quickly.

There are tons of email finders (hunter.io, voilanorbert.com) that let you enter someone's full name and company name to find their email or their company's email format.

2\. Keep your cold email short and frame hiring you as a way to launch and scale experiments, product test features, etc. on a project basis without needing to hire an additional full-time employee .

3\. Briefly provide 2 examples of how you used your engineering skills to achieve an important business goal or solve a problem for companies you've worked for. Provide 1-2 reference quotes vouching for your work and reliability with links to their Linkedin profiles.

4\. Offer to work on a project basis and offer to start on a small project with a defined deliverable to show them what you can achieve and how you'd be like working for you.

5\. A/B test different email approaches. For example, you can also try asking the prospect "What are your top 3 roadblocks that require dev work? I can provide you insights on the most time efficient solutions that take up less people resources" to open the conversation and demonstrate your expertise.

6\. Ask your current and previous colleagues to leave testimonials on your Linkedin profile to further show you're legit and skilled.

<comment><USER19> Have you done these things?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Toptal[1]

If you're a really good engineer (like I strongly believed I was) and don't have the network to find gigs (I live in Pakistan) freelance market places are great ideas on paper but never work out... Until I joined Toptal. They screened me to ensure I was a good developer (high quality supply of developers) and then worked with me to find a client that would be a good fit.

Since not everyone can get into the marketplace, it isn't a race to the lowest rate and they have the best clients I've ever worked with. At one point an old client emailed asking me to temporarily move to Australia for a project (although I declined)

You can work full-time, part-time, or even hourly. It's exactly what you're looking for!

Full disclosure: I later joined Toptal as an editor for their engineering publication [2] so I technically work there but this was all based on my experience as a freelancer there

[1]: referral link - topt.al/cppg [2]: [https://www.toptal.com/developers/blog#contract-just- respect...](https://www.toptal.com/developers/blog#contract-just-respected- software-architects)

<comment><USER21> As a counterpoint, I found their interview process so frustrating and disorganized that I gave up on them and told them I was no longer interested...

They do both an online programming test, and an in person "code in front of us" test + whatever else. They don't make it clear up front what the interview process is, and often drop the ball... miss appointments etc.

<comment><USER22> I found the exact same thing. I found the staff rude, slow and like they thought I was beneath them. I consider myself a skilled developer with a long, happy client list filled with some pretty big names. I also felt like they didn't respect my time with regards to my timezone. The guys at gun.io have been pretty nice but I haven't worked with them yet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Focus on a niche and become the go to person in that field. In my case, I work specifically with non-profit organizations that focus on Native American/First Nation issues. By narrowing down my target, I have been able to build a profitable network because I have specialized in that specific niche.

Once you have narrowed down your niche, its just a matter of being in the same room as your potential clients. For me, it was attending conferences and networking. But you could also hang out in subreddits, facebook groups, linkedin groups, forums etc if you are an introvert.

<comment><USER24> Curious to know what do you do for non profits?

<comment><USER23> Apologies on delay in response. I usually focus on website design/maintenance, as well as marketing materials for their events and other initiatives.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I understand you said you don't have networking skills. I too find networking pretty awkward and tedious. But in my experience the best kind is the kind that does not feel like networking at all.

You could go to relevant meetups for your skillset and find people who could use your help there, but this still feels like networking. (it can be awkward to talk to random strangers there)

However, there are other kinds of 'meetups' where it's just developers having beers together and discussing our trade or whatever else. If you go to these you'll become acquainted and maybe just make friends with some of them. This does not feel like networking at all! Work will naturally come your way after that.

Another good source of work is people you have already worked with in the past. Drop them an email or invite them to lunch, it feels pretty natural to just keep in touch (not awkward at all).

Anyway, these are just the ways I find work as someone who dislikes networking and recently became a full-time freelance developer.

</comment><comment><USER26> The truth is is that you don't need a network to land freelance gigs. Going to meetups is nice, but you can skip that step.

There are remote projects posted all the time on job boards, Slack channels, Discord, Twitter, Facebook Groups, and many other places that aren't UpWork.

I freelanced for 4 years completely remotely as a front-end developer always finding my clients in this way on various places and reaching out directly with email.

It's always about consistently reaching out to keep your freelance pipeline full, showing clients you have the technical skills by your showing previous projects in your email cover letter, and that you can be reliable by consistently emailing back quickly.

P.S. - I started [https://remoteleads.io/](https://remoteleads.io/) to solve this problem of finding remote work for myself and it turns out many others needed this too and now we're growing at a pretty consistent pace.

</comment><comment><USER27> A bit off-topic, but after reading "software engineer with a full-time job, but I have lots of spare time in my off hours" I find myself contemplating if I'm alone in wondering how anyone can have free time with a full-time software job. I work full-time in software and it is an all-consuming, life-eating thing. Perhaps (hopefully) I'm just "doing it wrong" and there is hope out there for a life beyond work... :-)

<comment><USER28> IMO, if I'm _thinking_ about work more than 8hrs/day, I'm doing it wrong. That's just me though. I love my job, and I love not worrying about it when I leave.

Different employers can have pretty different expectations about this. I always try to let potential employers know it's important to me when looking for a job. Usually it's as simple as "Work life balance is important to me. Can you describe how your company handles that?"

<comment><USER27> Sounds very sensible. I plan to make it a point of emphasis during my next job search.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I've used Upwork to varying degrees of success. Here are few of the pros and cons

Pros: \- It's easy to get started, you can just create a profile and get rolling. \- Lots of people on the other end of the spectrum, lots of potential clients which can later help with networking.

Cons: \- Lots of competition, when you're just starting you have to work really hard to build a reputable profile.

\- Upwork has lots of restrictions, so make sure you read the TOS. My first account was deleted because of a TOS violation, don't let that happen to you. \- 80% of potential clients either aren't serious or are clueless, this was the major reason I stopped using the platfrom.

I did see some success and I still have clients that contact me for work that I met through Upwork but I just can't stand the potential clients anymore and have pivoted to my own startup.

<comment><USER30> Also, be wary of the scammers; Upwork has a lot of them. I was taken in by one or two that sounded legitimate, and now I'm super careful.

They typically try sucker you in with an almost-real sounding job, then try to get you to accept a check via email (photo deposit) and then pay for some equipment within 24 hours before the check clears. Or they find some other way to obtain your financial details or login credentials. These people are clever and evil, and Upwork apparently doesn't seem overly concerned about getting rid of them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> [https://moonlightwork.com](https://moonlightwork.com)

<comment><USER32> I'm the co-founder of Moonlight! I used to freelance full-time (and still do it part-time). I had trouble finding gigs that matched my skills and interests, e.g. optimization algorithms in Julia. Other sites were mainly web development, but it seemed tough to justify a high hourly rate while doing less specialized work.

So, I started Moonlight, where we match you based on skills. People are hiring for things right now ranging from machine learning to Elm web development to PCB design. The average hourly rate is over $100US/hr.

We are still in our early days and small (as a team of 2), but I'm making it my full-time job to help you get quality freelance projects! I want to keep jobs specialized and at a high hourly rate as we grow, and not sacrifice quality.

Feel free to reach out to me with any questions! (philip@).

<comment><USER33> Hey, I checked you site, great work!

Only issue for me is that you only support stripe for payments and is not available in my country, Uruguay.

Why is that? Why not leave the payment chanel free? Or use paypal or something else?

<comment><USER32> I was in Colonia last weekend - Uruguay is great!

At this point, it's a question of time to build in additional systems. Stripe Connect let me (the solo engineer) build a marketplace quickly. However, it doesn't have great international support.

We are looking at other options, such as Payoneer. The main priority right now is on growing the client side of the market. However, after that, we will likely return to the contractor side to work on some projects such as expanding payment options.

<comment><USER33> Glad you like it :)

I understand, thanks for the answer

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I do AI/ML/data science freelancing, (usually around cyber security), but also do a lot of Devops / systems work.

The AI/ML stuff is harder to find, save through networking, but for the DevOps/cloud/sysadmin - I favor weworkremotely.com and workingnomads.com. Their email notifications are pretty handy as well.

As someone else mentioned - upwork works, but it's very very competitive, and I much preferred their Elance platform in the day.

<comment><USER35> > workingnomads.com

Is that URL correct? I'm trying it and I'm seeing what appears to be an error page in… Dutch. I'm gonna guess Dutch.

<comment><USER36> They meant [https://www.workingnomads.co/jobs](https://www.workingnomads.co/jobs)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Be careful about taking on too many obligations. If you're single and your day job is not too demanding, you might make it work, but if you have a family, it can be tough.

I recently found some work through one of the freelance websites but had to back out. I'm a full time software engineer but I am also a full time dad and husband, and between shopping, cooking (I work from home so these tasks tend to fall to me), going to dance and music recitals etc., it was just too much.

Regarding networking, if your employer sends you to technical conferences, it's a great way to practice. Quite often I strike up a conversation over the breakfast buffet. People are usually quite relaxed and willing to chat while sugaring their coffee and grabbing a pastry. Everyone is in the same boat as yourself; they all want to network, build up useful contacts and potential business partners etc., so they will eagerly tell you about themselves, exchange cards etc. After you have been doing it for a while, networking can become natural and fun, and it's very worthwhile to cultivate a friendly and outgoing manner. You never know but it may result in your next job offer. Good luck!

<comment><USER37> I can't agree with you enough on this :) It's indeed hard to build a freelancing career between a day job and life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I built something to help HN users network together. I can't promise it'll bring you work, but it'll help you connect with other members of this community without much effort on your part.

[https://findkismet.com](https://findkismet.com)

<comment><USER39> I have been a kismet user since they launched recently. I can say that a large number of my "matches" either don't fill out what they "need help with" or "can offer help with" and even more than that don't reply at all after I make initial contact.

I was talking with another kismet user and they too said out of their matches I was the only one that ever reached out to say hi.

I hope it gains popularity because I think the idea is great. I wouldn't count on it though to find a job.

<comment><USER4> I've had multiple conversations with people, though, granted, it hasn't gotten any specific concrete result yet. But I'm not expecting overnight results.

Experience is going to vary.

<comment><USER39> Cool. Here is to hoping, I have had a few e-mails of people that seem amazing to talk to.

<comment><USER38> As the creator of Kismet I'm a user just like everybody else and your experiences echo mine. I did recently release an update to match users with empty profiles only against each other, so that should help. Measuring responsiveness would require me to "get in the middle" of the conversation a la AngelList or CoFoundersLab, which I don't like for privacy reasons.

I compare it to real-life networking events: the majority of people you talk to aren't that interesting or helpful, but you have to talk to them to find out. Kismet just lets you do it without leaving the house :)

<comment><USER39> I agree with also that you don't need to measure responsiveness.

However, one thought I have is if the user doesn't fill out pros and cons, what good is making the match? They either don't need anything or have nothing to offer. Perhaps match with other users that also put nothing?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> > I'm not looking for massive pay, just something to occupy my time and some > side money.

You have two options. Start working on a side project which you find interesting. Apply any new technologies you'd wanted to learn. You can either profit from it, or worst case, you learned something new from that. I don't want to glorify failure, but the most important thing is to ship it.

The less risky option is to build your brand/credibility in a niche area, like offering a lot of value in form of blog posts, free e-books etc. This is more organic, takes time, but builds the trust which makes it easier to find clients.

Both options involve a combination of various skills other than pure technical competence like marketing and project management.

</comment><comment><USER40> Are consultant brokers/agent only a thing in the Nordic countries? I started my own consultancy firm last year and just sent my profile to a bunch of brokers. They all got in touch and presented assignments they had. I selected one, went on 1 interview (!!) and bam - six month assignment. The broker gets 10% of what I make. It's super convenient and saves me a bunch of stress and time hunting assignments so the 10% is really worth it.

<comment><USER41> 10% seems quite a lot, I'm wondering if your hour rate is so high that the 10% doesn't matter.

<comment><USER42> If you think about opportunity cost, it might not be as much as you think. Sometimes there's a fee for getting to the next stage quicker than doing it yourself. You'll have to decide if the fee is worth it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> __Do: __

1\. Get out of the building. That means finding other people 's problems.

2\. Show up. After work, offer to take a coffee with the CEO, or an the exec of a company you know, just to talk about their problems and challenges they are facing, and if applicable, tell them you could help them with that. The simple fact of showing up often in a place will give the impression to people that you are available for some work.

3\. Know your value in the market. Unless you know your value, you won't make a significant amount of money to justify the time you put in. Which leads me to point #4:

4\. If you still don't find anything to do for profit, try offering your skills to a non-profit organization that would benefit a lot from your skills. For their website, or an internal app. These projects are sometimes fun to do and you can get some valuable experience in an interesting tech you like, in a project that you know will be useful and meaningful to others.

 __Don 't: __

1\. ...say yes too often.

2\. ...under-estimate the time it would take to finish up the project.

3\. ...ignore your gut feeling when starting a relationship with people. Bad people don't look that bad on first impression.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER4> Once a month on the first, HN does a piece called "Freelancer / Seeking Freelancer." You could post to that and/or check it for "Seeking Freelancer" comments.

<comment><USER35> Unfortunately, the "Freelancer" posts outweigh the "Seeking Freelancer" posts by ten to one or so. I tried posting in the last thread, and the only response I got was from someone asking me to work on a project which involved helping people buy a certain substance which is still illegal in my state. Didn't wanna touch it.

<comment><USER17> Answering job board ads is a numbers game - I can't get better than 20:1 even being very selective.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I've been in the freelance game for the last five years.

If you're based in the US or Europe I wouldn't waste my time with Freelancer.com or Upwork. The competition for jobs on these platforms is usually too high.

Here are my best resources for finding freelance jobs:

1\. And Co's gig list And Co is a true life saver for me as a freelancer. Their app is 100% free and does everything I need: invoicing, contracts, payments, time tracking, etc.

They send out a weekly newsletter with lots of opportunities from all over the internet. It's kind of a hidden gem. Lots of value >> [https://www.and.co/gig- list](https://www.and.co/gig-list)

2\. Angel List

3\. Remote.io

However, there are lots and lots of other platforms. I recommend you look at this article [https://www.and.co/freelance-jobs](https://www.and.co/freelance- jobs)

</comment><comment><USER45> Be helpful, polite, and talk to people. This can be on an online forum, group chat, or in person. If you are genuinely helpful and polite, you will form relationships, which can eventually lead to jobs.

It's precisely when you're not trying to find work that the wildest opportunities will come to you.

</comment><comment><USER46> No network? No incoming leads from LinkedIn/Website/Github?

Go direct. You ask. Find the VP/CEO/Senior engineer, and ask them.

<comment><USER47> I can vouch, this works!

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I am in the exact opposite situation right now : how do I find a C system freelancer ?

<comment><USER49> The freelancer thread can work, and hopefully you have a network you can ask.

Please, though, tell us more about it! What's the project in a nutshell? What kind of developer skills do you need? Rough ideas of time investment and compensation?

<comment><USER48> Work to be done includes pixel format conversion, creating multi threaded encoding queue, documenting existing code / reorganizing the files, creating a little parser for command lines generation. 3 Months minimum

<comment><USER39> I have a lot of experience here and have worked on a large graphic application that you may know about if you are in the industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I'm actually in need of a react native developer, if anyone is interested, drop me a line at: email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER51> Consider volunteering for relevant work at a non-profit you care about (especially if the executives, volunteers or Board members are connected to organizations that interest you).

<comment> 52-6F-62 There's also the United Nations Online Volunteers.

They have an internal postings board for non-profit and charity organizations all around the world that have applied for volunteer technical help. There's a lot of need out there.

[https://www.onlinevolunteering.org/en](https://www.onlinevolunteering.org/en)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Start by turning all those "I don'ts" into "I do's."

</comment><comment><USER11> See: [https://www.gkogan.co/blog/how-i-learned-to-get- consulting-l...](https://www.gkogan.co/blog/how-i-learned-to-get-consulting- leads/)

TL;DR - I tried out networking but it didn't work for me. Instead what's worked very well is writing educational content about the topic I'm an expert in. People often search for a solution to a problem before they decide to hire someone else to just do it for them. If they find your instructions for solving that problem, they might think "Why don't I just pay this person to do it for me? They'll probably do it better and faster."

<comment><USER52> Thanks, I really like your article. I have some follow up questions:

\- When you're blogging, do you have a method to figure out what to write about? Are there "types" of posts that are more successful for you than others?

\- You said that most of your work comes from referrals now. What do you think about people trying to get in the game and start making free tools for a specific industry like (i.e. construction) to generate leads? I know some startups use this as a marketing tactic, like HubSpot's website grader. Then just freely promoting that tool in a group of LinkedIn construction executives.

<comment><USER11> I pay attention to the questions my clients ask and the pain they're feeling, then write about that because I assume other potential clients have the same pain. Occasionally I write about something just because it's been on my mind. I specifically the strong urge to write for other people like myself (that is, other marketers), because they're never going to become my clients.

I like the idea of having a tool that acts as a lead generator, so long as it doesn't take too much time to make, because there's no guarantee it will work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> But the question is what website beside the upwork and frelance you can use to find jobs related to network/system administration ?

</comment><comment><USER54> Mostly referrals. Though now I'm looking for something more stable and am expanding my searches through Linked In, Gunio & Stack Overflow career this weekend.

(10 years doing iOS, Android, React, Javascript, Ruby and more recently Erlang + Smart Contract programming, if any of this interests you/your corp reply with a contact page!)

</comment><comment><USER55> I'm a full-time freelancer and I'm super specific on my niche, new music technology. I find that works pretty well. Sometimes I'm applying for gigs, sometimes folks just cold email me, and sometimes people refer others my way. But being a specialist seems to be the one thing that works best for me.

</comment><comment><USER56> I have a FT job, but I've maintained a website on S3 for a client for a few years now.

I charged quite a bit up front, and now charge a yearly maintenance fee.

Honestly, its best to focus on your FT job and not spread yourself too thin. Enjoy your time off or contribute to open source with your free time.

</comment><comment><USER57> I find that meeting my clients face to face before engaging goes a long way for both of us.

In the times I haven't made time to do this, I feel like a robot receiving endless requests. I don't think they remember I'm a real person.

Eye contact and a handshake go a long way.

</comment><comment><USER58> I used to be a freelancer, work as a remote contractor for a US based company.

The conventional and shortcut way is to find jobs on upwork, freelancer.com etc, the difficult but rewarding route is to introduce yourself as an authority for the thing you want to be hired. The best way to do is to put profile online and write SEO optimized blog posts.

<shameless_plug> I wrote a blog post on this matter which you can read here: [http://blog.adnansiddiqi.me/5-ways-developers-can-have- multi...](http://blog.adnansiddiqi.me/5-ways-developers-can-have-multiple- income-streams/) </shameless_plug>

</comment><comment><USER59> Folks hate on Upwork.com but I have used it to secure and build good long-term relationships. Once the relationships grew we could take it offline to a more formal relationship. Because I started my career as an accountant, I have been able to start 2 of these relationships as an accountant and move over to data analysis.

A good note to include is I do this part-time while working full-time and don't think I could simply expand this contract deal flow to fill a full time schedule if I needed to. I also have ruined a relationship early on by not respecting the part-time work enough and slowing down the folk's timeline.

<comment><USER60> Thats illegal, you had signed contract with upwork.

<comment><USER61> Assuming the parent is talking about completing a contract on Upwork, then setting up future contracts outside of Upwork: it's not illegal, it's just against their TOS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> > I'm a software engineer with a full-time job, but I have lots of spare time > in my off hours.

You are a SE, you are in the best position ever to work on your own projects, create your own startup, implementing your own ideas.

<comment><USER63> I think you overestimate the capabilities of a software engineer. I'm a backend developer. I can design and implement the backend of enterprise level systems (APIs, Service Bus, Scheduled Jobs, Automation of operations, etc).

But you still need a front end designer, a front end developer to write the clients users actually interact with and a domain expert who understands the needs of the people the software is being made for.

Sure, some people can probably do all of those things. But I haven't yet met someone who could do them all as well as a specialist.

Only opportunity I've had to work in startups, is when I'm working with a domain expert and a front end developer who happens to know enough about design to be the UX designer as well.

Best case scenario, that person is also a domain expert, or I am. Either way that still involves me finding someone else with the drive, passion, time and energy to pursue a startup.

Oh and that's ignoring all the legal crap you have to deal with in a startup.

Freelance = Let them deal with all the bullshit and take their money to solve a problem you can solve well.

Startup = You have a team of people with a common vision. Or one person with the capital to hire them all... which has been my most common experience (they usually are domain expert too). Maybe you get rich, maybe you lose all your invested time/money, maybe you get screwed due to not understanding the legal documents you signed.

Startups are hard. Hell I had a group of guys that each had complementary skillsets and we considered starting a company that consulted for startups (helping them understand what to do, and guiding them through the process). Unfortunately two of them passed away :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Agree with taprun. It is easier to communicate when you are specific. What do you build or like to build? Lots of people would like to work with an engineer like you on projects, myself being one.

</comment><comment><USER65> Reading your question makes me wonder if you're tackling the correct issue.

\- Why do you feel the need to work on the side to "leverage your skills" ? Your fulltime job should give you this opportunity.

\- Why do you want to work with computers on your spare time ? Spare time is also a way to broaden your horizon. Go try new things, meet new people from different fields, etc. The fact that you describe yourself as having poor networking skills makes me wonder if you haven't spent a bit too much time alone in a front of a computer already.

</comment><comment><USER66> Find opportunities to plug what you have in places that are relevant. Every so often HN has threads where I talk about my experience with web design at www.beaver.digital, and it always lands me tons of work. I'd recommend just hanging out in internet communities that are interesting to you and that potentially have people that can hire you, like this one. I'm secretly terrible at networking, but that surprisingly has not been an issue whatsoever.

</comment><comment><USER67> Here's the method I used to build myself a consultancy business: buy a 9.90€ suit jacket at h&m, a 0.80€ pen and a moleskine notebook.

Wake up at 7 the next day, start knocking doors and sell your services to every business in town; the trick is that you can't go home and eat until you have at least a prospect client.

Don't cold call, don't send emails, don't print business cards. Knock doors while looking professional and competent, you'll get clients soon.

<comment><USER68> Isn't that exactly what cold calling is?

<comment><USER67> Maybe it's because I'm not a native english speaker, but isn't there a huge difference between looking up numbers and showing up in person in a business (casual) attire?

I don't understand the downvotes, the above strategy worked really well for me and I'm a very shy person with no sales background.

<comment><USER69> Cold calling got it's name from that but generally people think of it as reaching out to someone to sell them something with no prior introduction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> As other have said, I initially found clients through work. And eventually, I found more through reputation, and word of mouth.

Initially, I billed at about twice my salary, to account for overhead. But I eventually realized that even that was less than half of typical consulting rates. So I gradually increased my billing rate, and redefined my old rate as that for established clients. And then I gradually ratcheted that up as well. But I did lose some old clients.

</comment><comment><USER71> When I do freelance (which is never these days), Codementor (affiliate link): [https://www.codementor.io/i/3tiesmnbt9](https://www.codementor.io/i/3tiesmnbt9)

HackHands is pretty fun too ([https://hackhands.com](https://hackhands.com)) but very short term stuff and very low volume. If you have spare time it's nice though.

</comment><comment><USER72> Let the work find you. One method is to turn on the "notify recruiters you are open" on LinkedIn (a toggle under Jobs) and write a note saying you want contract work. The setting is about a year old, and it notifies recruiters that are searching for candidates that you are open to listening.

You can also set filters for location, contract vs perm, size of company, and set a personal note on what you are open to.

</comment><comment><USER73> >> I'm a software engineer with a full-time job, but I have lots of spare time in my off hours

I have a contract in my current workplace which lets me bill off-hours (they also pay for my taxi costs when I work late, they also pay double during holidays) so I am happily not taking any side jobs. Your day job can become your night job if you can produce more work off-hours for them.

</comment><comment><USER74> There's a job channel for React on the Reactiflux Discord server. I think there's also one on the Apollo slack community, and I've seen them in other places too. I don't know how effective they are because I'm trying to get my project further along before posting to them.

</comment><comment><USER75> It's an excellent question.

I'm learning that now.

Basically it boils down to either

1\. Using job boards / LinkedIn and going through recruiters, many of whom have a contract department.

Here's the problem. Many recruiters misrepresent to YOU what the client requirement is. I found myself in situations where the client was interested but all along they wanted a temp-to-hire / contract-to-hire (do NOT do this on principle even if you are gunning for full time work!), while I seek pure contracts / long-term contracts.

Here's the bigger problem. Recruiters / agencies take a __huge __cut. We 're talking 40-60% or more. So if you want 120 bucks an hour, the client would see a bill for 180 an hour.

Let's take a step back and think about that. If the client is ready to pay close to 180 or a bit below, that means that you can charge a much higher rate than 120. You can charge, say, 140, and still the client is happy with the cost.

But it's very difficult because this requires relationships with senior people in companies. This brings me to number 2.

2\. Networking. I don't think here we're talking about going to a Meetup or a tech conference and flashing business cards. Maybe that'll work (please tell me it worked for someone and I'll do it). What it REALLY means is all those managers of your past, those people you really got along with in those jobs you had in the past (and you DID have a bunch of jobs in the past, right, hopefully not just one!), those people are potential sources of contract. Some hiring managers can convince their managers they need a contractor -- I did it as a hiring manager once, and one of my ex-bosses did it to re-hire me.

I think LinkedIn is the Facebook of the business world for that. While in Facebook you have to suffer people's baby pics and food pictures so that friends and family don't forget your exist, in LinkedIn you suffer platitudes about hard work and Leadership and Important Thoughts -- so that your ex co- workers and employers don't forget you exist.

I tried using HN and people I knew personally for tiny, one-off, small projects and it was a total nightmare. Inconsistent, cheap, and a lot of overhead. There's so much talking and meeting and phone calls and such for which I never billed, for work that never materialized or (might still/will) materialize.

Networking is key and I'd love to hear some tips here!

</comment><comment><USER76> finding freelance work is easy, depends how much and what kind of work you want to do. fiver to upwork & freelance... but you will miss exploring new stuff. but side project will turn you into a machine, if you don't find something interesting or aligning with your interests. Must charge more than normal day time. I do it just for fun and don't charge much but i only do it to buy stuff online as my bank account doesn't support buying books, games & apps online. (i don't take more than an hour work)

</comment><comment><USER77> I Work alone and make sure I do awesome work for a reasonable fee. Working alone keeps costs low. Awesome work keeps referrals high. Reasonable fee keeps repeat business coming in.

</comment><comment><USER78> 100% through people I've worked with before. (Finding work is not hard if you have a good reputation but very hard before you've built one.)

</comment><comment><USER79> UpWork, given your situation. And start building up your Github, LinkedIn or Blog to boost your online presence.

</comment><comment><USER80> Get involved in your local community (politics). You should get a lot of IT jobs, where you can make a name for yourself. Also, you can attribute to linux, by fixing and helping with the bugs and the kernel. When being a freelancer, you should be a bit more high profile than you are now?

</comment><comment><USER81> If you're curious, I wrote a post[0] quite some time ago that covers a few things you could do to start a successful freelance business without any prior network.

The TL;DR is to goto local meetups and talk to people in the street while avoiding freelancing marketplaces like the plague. That's how I mostly started freelancing 20 years ago and it's what I still do today.

You don't need a portfolio or anything to start getting clients.

[0]: [https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful- fre...](https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/how-to-start-a-successful-freelance- business-as-a-software-developer)

</comment><comment><USER82> Easy, send us an email: email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER83> you might want to try Upwork if you haven't.

</comment><comment><USER84> CodeMentor.io FreeeUp.com Upwork.com Fiverrr.com (not just $5 gigs) Codeable.io

Do you need more?

<comment><USER47> Ergh... Probably the worst places to find work. A saturated market of freelancers that will accept any price to do any work. OP you're better than this!

<comment><USER85> I've been a mentor on Codementor for almost a year now, and it's the opposite of what you're suggesting. I have very professional mentoring sessions solving interesting problems, and getting payed really good money.</comment></comment></comment>


Apple Event sandboxing in macOS Mojave lacks essential APIs - <AUTHOR> https://www.felix-schwarz.org/blog/2018/06/apple-event-sandboxing-in-macos-mojave <comment><USER2> I can see a few problems here (launching the app seems a little carzy, but there's gotta be a good reason for it, right?), but the inability to 'whiltelist' an app is _not_ one IMHO. Requiring explicit permissions for each app receving events is a great thing, and would make it to trust an app like RemoteBuddy.

Here's the thing, if Apple allows whitelisting an app, then every developer will just request that level of access rather than per-app permissions even if they don't need it "just in case". Eventually we wind up where we are today with everything having permission to send apple events to everything.

Even if my dystopian whitelist fears aren't realized, those apps that do regularly get whitelisted (or claim to require it) will become targets and potential vectors for attack, as they are the most privileged apps on your mac.

 __PS - and to the author, no need to exaggerate things. Just because your app _can_ control 100+ apps doesn't mean your users are all using it to do that. It seems perfectly reasonable to request approval for each app as they are enabled/configured - if you're asking for apprval for all apps upfront that's on you.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd like to clarify and elaborate on a few points:

1) I've made the argument that whitelisting apps should be possible. But not that apps should be able to prompt for it like they do for a single app.

2) The existence of a whitelist option doesn't mean one needs to use it. Approving target apps individually would still be possible.

3) Script Editor and Automator are "whitelisted" via private entitlements to send Apple Events to any target without prompting.

Both apps (also thanks to entitlements) can also access the address book, calendars and reminders without prompting.

As far as I can see, these privileges can't be stripped from the apps by the user.

If an attacker were to look for apps worth targeting, why would he target anything else but these two apps, made for executing code, with all their (non-removable) permissions?

(Source: screenshots in [https://twitter.com/felix_schwarz/status/1012291010863468544](https://twitter.com/felix_schwarz/status/1012291010863468544) )

4) macOS Mojave adds an "Application Data" category to whitelist apps to access all of the users files.

Including files that apps can't even prompt for access and are otherwise off limits. Like f.ex. browser cookies.

It's another (needed) whitelist option that is far more permissive than an Apple Event whitelist option would ever be.

5) I don't think I exaggerate things. I used "up to" in front of that number to acknowledge that number as the upper limit, not the rule.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Your assertion that "these apps are a reason to keep buying Macs" is very true, at least in my case. Along with MagSafe and USB iPhone syncing, it's one of the things keeping me on the platform.

I taught myself AppleScript at age 13, to download text and put it on my iPod as 1000 character noted. I remember when URL Access Scripting was removed, and I started using curl instead.

I've also written many other scripts, such as diagonal selection in Excel, or slide layout in PowerPoint.

I use a lot of Apple Events apps as well, such as BetterTouchTool.

Is there an alternative to AppleScript for Linux?</comment>


Google Ventures Launches $10,000 Startup Referral Program For Employees - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/18/google-ventures-launches-10000-startup-referral-program-for-employees/ <comment><USER2> Wow, the ones on HN are going to make a killing.

<comment><USER3> Well, they're supposed to know the startup beyond the i-saw-you-on-hacker-news level. Be able to argue why it's a good startup and be able to introduce them...

But yeah.. I can see a bunch of Googlers bending the rules and reaching out to unknown startups they happen to see in HN. After all, there are incentives for both the startup and the Googler.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I had a dream last night (after reading this article) where I met a Google employee (who happened to look a lot like Agent Frank Lundy from Dexter, it was weird) and I was trying to give him a demo of my project. For some reason my laptop was running really slowly and stuff kept popping up and messing up my demo, it was awful!

I blame this article on my dream last night.

So...any Google employees want to become fast friends? I like Python, Django, Android, Git, and long walks on the beach.

</comment><comment> bjelkeman-again If I truly believed in a startup, then how about try joining it and making a real killing when it flips. ;)

</comment><comment><USER5> So.. where do I pitch a googler ?</comment>


Tesla Doesn't Even Have a Model 3 Beta Prototype Yet - <AUTHOR> http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-doesnt-even-have-a-model-3-beta-prototype-yet/ <comment><USER2> obscenely click baity, but the idea the article eventually gets around to is that the car is the beta.

it is rather curious that consumers seem to have embraced this.</comment>


Valve pays to harass me, or how Valve steals Microsoft's intellectual property - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@redgpu/valve-pays-to-harass-me-or-how-valve-steals-microsofts-intellectual-property-4c9c536b9ec7 <comment><AUTHOR> Also available to read here: [https://github.com/redgpu/redgpu/blob/master/Blog/2020_09_09...](https://github.com/redgpu/redgpu/blob/master/Blog/2020_09_09/Valve_pays_to_harass_me_or_how_Valve_steals_Microsofts_intellectual_property.md)</comment>


Atlanta Airport Blackout Exposes a Flaw in Backup Power Systems - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/atlanta-airport-blackout-exposes-a-flaw-in-backup-power-systems-1513638388 <comment><AUTHOR> "There is no excuse for lack of workable redundant power source. None!" wrote former U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx on twitter. He was stuck on a Delta flight on the tarmac for about five hours, he tweeted.

</comment><comment><USER2> fascinating how in the 21st century we still don't learn from past mistakes and from published industry best practice. What's so difficult? Pride of owning some unique solution, knowledge management of past learnings, or building for profit margins ?</comment>


Tell the UK Home Office to Protect Encryption - <AUTHOR> https://action.openrightsgroup.org/tell-home-office-protect-encryption <comment><USER3> I'm surprised they're not using the WannaCry situation with this - surely it's the perfect, relevant example here? A government promises to have complete control over something, and assign their _best_ people to work on it - <USER2> still it ends up in the real world, damaging the people it's meant to protect.

<comment><USER4> There are foreign powers licking their lips for the total collapse of the British empire. I can see the headlines 2018, literally all British information compromised. Banking, Gov't, everything.</comment></comment>


1984 Lee Iacocca Chrysler commercial - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppKMomMP-4

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been reading Lee Iacocca's autobiography recently and found his business story pretty interesting. This made me look up these old commercials. I'm posting it here mostly to see if anyone else has been reading up on old Lee and what they think.</comment>


Microsoft upgrades Xbox Live with live TV, and Kinect voice control - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/04/microsoft-upgrades-xbox-live-with-40-entertainment-services-live-tv-and-kinect-voice-control/ <comment><USER2> But will they do away the stupid points/currency system? I have found myself using the Xbox Zune more than iTunes but hate the stupid points/currency they use. Can I just see what I am buying in dollars?!

<comment><USER3> Points * 1.25 / 100 = Dollars.

Assuming retail price for points purchased.

<comment><USER4> why not just use dollars or cents directly?

<comment><USER5> they don't want you to directly associate points with dollars. the dissociation allows you to spend points more freely than you would dollars

<comment><USER6> I'm pretty sure I actually spend less on Xbox Live than I would if everything were done with straight money transactions because it is virtually impossible to buy enough points to cover things you want to buy without having leftover unspent points, the existence of which (even if temporary) makes me feel wasteful.

eg. Ok, I would like to buy this indie game for XXX points, but I need to buy points in blocks of YYY dollars which means after I buy this I'll have 200 unused points sitting in my account for who knows how long... screw it, I didn't really want that indie game that bad anyway.

Granted this is just one view of the situation and I may be an anomaly, but for me the whole point<->money system causes me to think too much which pretty much kills off any potential for impulse purchases.

Straight up dollar values and a click-to-buy system as streamlined as Amazon one click is what gets my money.

YMMV.

<comment><USER5> i'm the same way, but i'm guessing most people don't think like you and i.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I feel like the Xbox 360 is doing to console gaming what XP did to the OS market. Which is only making me more leery about investing in their future consoles. The Xbox 360 will not go away any time soon, but could this also hurt their future console? Will it be able to stay up to date when the next greatest thing comes out?

</comment><comment><USER8> ABC iView access later this month in Australia! Seriously great news, since I don't have access to live television where I am.

</comment><comment><USER4> this is microsoft's trojan horse that analysts aren't paying that much attention to in the living room wars (google/apple/etc)

</comment><comment><USER9> Fails to mention that you need gold subscription for any of those, including Netflix.

</comment><comment><USER10> Interesting. The problem with Xbox is that every time I turn mine on, it has to do an update. By the time it's done updating, I've forgotten why I turned it on. It is also louder than many commercial aircraft, drowning out whatever you might be doing on it.

So for TV, I just use a tiny computer under my TV, which can download stuff from Usenet and play it without requiring updates or nine billion cubic feet of air per minute.

<comment><USER11> Do you only turn your Xbox on every 6 months? Dashboard updates are very infrequent.

<comment><USER2> Agreed, I use my Xbox several times a week and I think it has updated 3 times total in the last 2 years.</comment></comment></comment>


On Atwood's Please Don't Learn to Code - <AUTHOR> https://gist.github.com/0f61db65bbd2d2cb681a

<comment><USER2> Can I do this? Am I within HN etiquette to paste my post in another story? original here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3976688>

=====

Please learn to code. Also, learn to change your oil and maybe your spark plugs; learn to cook; learn to replace buttons on your shirts; learn to fix your leaky sink and plunge your toilet; learn to plant flowers and tomatoes; milk a cow; shovel some dirt; experience driving a tractor, both the kind in a field and the kind that pull tons of cargo down the expressway ...

Get out of your comfort zone, live for a minute in someone else's shoes and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn to respect the work that other people do and be willing to pay them for it - they deserve to be paid for their Work. Yes, sitting behind a desk all day bringing brainpower to bear on saving the company money is Work. Driving 11 hours a day is Work. Grilling that steak and walking it to your table is Work. It's all Work because it takes us away from our families, because it's so well regulated that it adds stress, because we'd rather be doing other things but the bills have to be paid (i.e. we have to pay other people for the Work they do keeping our lights on, our Internet connected and our water reasonably clean.)

So, please, learn to program. Then, when you need software built, you'll know why you hired me for "so much" and how much trouble I'm saving you.

<comment><USER3> The problem is that the list of things you should learn, as you imply, is endless. There's a reasonable case for learning literally thousands of skills to allow you to improve your life, understand what is possible or why something is non-trivial and there simply isn't the time to learn all of these things.

As people who have embraced technology we all see the benefits of it and it's foremost in our minds as to how useful it would be if others did the same but how many of us have really weighed up the benefits of someone spending 20 hours learning basic coding against 20 hours learning to cook, or plumb, or speak a foreign language, or understand physiology, or how to listen, or a safe driving course, or plastering, or gardening, or understanding statistics, or history, or spending that time with a friend.

It feels to me to be a gross generalisation - it's really useful to me therefore it's really useful - but without knowing more about the person in question, their life, their issues, how they think, that's really all it is.

<comment> DanI-S I think everybody should learn the fundamentals of programming for the same reason that we learn the fundamentals of physics - not because we're going to be reproducing Newton's experiments at home, but because we live in a world powered by physics, and life is easier and less frightening if you know a little about it.

<comment><USER4> No. Everybody should learn about computers, how to turn them on, how to browse the internet, etc. Not knowing the fundamentals of programming does not prevent a person from achieving any of the above.

<comment><USER5> I'd venture that people are psychologically better off compared to the time when people had no idea how cars worked, and they would hang bulbs of garlic under the hood. (Which happened when the Ford Model T came out.)

<comment><USER6> People do have no idea how cars work.

<comment><USER5> They now know enough to know the garlic bulbs won't work.

<comment><USER3> They don't know that, they just didn't like the smell.

<comment><USER5> Actually, hanging something under the hood of a running car can be something of an engineering exercise in itself. (But more people back then could tie knots and had good rope or twine sitting around.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The best part about the general population attempting to learn to code is that there may be fewer people who think programming is magic.

<comment><USER8> Exactly. This. <arbitrary Internet jargon indicating agreement>.

This article is the best-articulated explanation of why programming should be a core part of the college, and even K-12 curriculum I have ever seen. I just can't agree more.

An anecdote.

When my girlfriend was still in school she needed to collect a great deal of data for a project. It was available for sale from industry groups and such, but she didn't have tens of thousands of dollars for a membership. So she resigned herself to harvesting it manually.

When I noticed what she was doing I pointed out that I could make this process easier for her by writing a small computer program. A few lines of Javascript and Python later she had her data, and in a small fraction of the time it would have taken her otherwise.

I explained, in general terms, what was going on in the program and why it worked the way it did, and explained some of the changes I could make if she needed it to work differently. The programming involved here was not in _any way_ difficult or clever. The interesting thing was that she had never even considered the fact that her problem could be solved using computer programming.

She commented to me a couple months later, after I'd helped her with a couple other small problems in the same vein, that she had started to see problems that could be solved easily with a little bit of code everywhere she went. I didn't coach this response out of her, she was honestly amazed at what could be accomplished and she continues to view the world differently because of this exposure.

Now, she certainly hasn't become a "computer programmer" since (and she likely never will). But gaining a basic understanding of what can be accomplished using programming tools has actually changed the way she views problems.

Edit: I noticed people are concerned that having too many people with just enough knowledge to screw things up might be a bad thing. In my girlfriend's case the opposite has been true. She hasn't all of a sudden decided she can solve every problem by writing some code (or convincing someone else to write code).

On the contrary, she actually has a better appreciation for how computer programs work and why writing a new one may not be a good idea in all cases. For example, she understands why a custom application requires maintenance, and that maintenance isn't just some trivial thing that you hire an intern to take care of. In fact, she has actually talked her boss _out of_ having new applications created because she realized that the projects would likely end in failure.

<comment><USER4> You have missed the point. Your girlfriend did not need to learn to program in order to discover what can be achieved with a basic program.

For the common woman or man the revelation of computing comes from seeing what can be achieved, not how it is achieved.

<comment><USER9> You cannot in good faith separate the what from the how when passing on the "revelation of computing". To do so promotes ignorance among the populace.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This point seems to make the same assumption I've been seeing across HN that programming is somehow more _special_ than other fields/creative outlets. All of his points are the same for people who lack a deep understanding of physics, which quite frankly is far more relevant to our every day world.

I don't think you should ever discourage someone who _wants_ to program, I just don't think it's knowledge that everyone needs. Getting a general understanding of the way computers work (high level) would be far more useful to the vast majority of people.

<comment><AUTHOR> I like this point. It is an important distinction and a good comparison to a related area, physics. Two thoughts, though, that I'd like to hear your thoughts on:

1\. Don't we all learn physics? At least basically in school we learn about inertia and atoms and velocity. Sure we don't learn the hard stuff and our understanding is woefully incomplete. But the analogy would be "the physics we learn in school" and "things like conditionals, sets, graphs, types". 2\. The utility curve of physics is a little different than that of programming. Both contextualize the world and give you richer understandings of it in a similar fashion. However, physics stops solving everyday problems sooner than programming does. I have never whipped out alternative spacetime topologies to solve an everyday problem. I have written tons of bots and things to automate my life.

Dunno, just some thoughts.

<comment><USER11> You also end up getting an intuitive understanding of basic physics by doing everyday things like throwing a ball or riding a bicycle.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right, and this is a barrier to learning digital domains. There is no physicalization of many digital ideas but, precisely by being digital, they do not map onto physical things. I can't run into a lambda on the street or have to fix a leaky loop in my roof. Sure, everyday things touch code but there's a reason why our instinct is to "blow on the cartridge" and not "fire up the debugger"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This author makes the point that general problem solving and programming are, in fact, the same thing, and you can't have one without the other.[1] I call foul on this: I bet programmers think in terms of loops, but because that's how they think. There are other ways to solve problems as well.

And many of the problems the author outlines really aren't problems. My Android app crashes, or my form doesn't submit. Yes, there's code underlying those problems, but SO WHAT. Why should a layman care about memory management?

Anyway, I find this a supremely short-sighted argument. But I think the crux of this whole series of discussions is around one question: Where on the spectrum of "things everyone should know" does "programming" fall?

We all agree that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of things about programming on that list. Reading, arithmetic, critical thinking, civil rights, personal finance, health, history, etc. And in a world where many people are illiterate, in debt, oppressed, and so forth, shouldn't we focus on those problems first?

[1] "If you don't know how to program, you filter out all parts of the world that involve programming. You miss the loops and divide-and-conquers of everyday life."

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, yes. You are absolutely right that I pooched the Android memory example. Laymen might not care and it might not help them. I think a better example might be someone copying information off a website. I've seen this happen a lot. Someone will have to print off name tags for an event but there's only 10 people per page. Copy. Next page. Etc. If they understood, say, the idea of scraping, they'd see a simple batch scrape and save hours if not days.

As you your other point though, about general problem solving, I think I was unclear. When I said you miss the loops and divide-and-conquers of everyday life, I was just trying -- perhaps too lyrically for my own good -- that you are unable to categorize the world into categories you do not know and cannot recognize. You can't see that the operation you do for every page could be abstracted into a loop, exectuable by a computer. You don't see that you don't need to compare all of your friends to arrange them by height, say for a sweet picture, but you can quicksort them. (Ok this is about as contrived as you can get but programmers have a hard time thinking of places most people don't see programming but we do. Because we see it everywhere).

Finally, sure we should focus on illiteracy, debt, oppression etc. We are working, though, on a lot of these problems programmatically.

<comment><USER12> It sounds to me like you're arguing less for programming and more for a) a basic algorithms class, b) an understanding of technology applicability to real-world problems, and c) the need for better tools to automate daily tasks.

You have to be a pretty good programmer to write a multi-page scraping script fast enough that it beats the tradeoff of just doing it by hand. Or you need to solve the problem another way. I guess that's what I'm getting at... the problems you're highlighting are real, but I don't think the solution is "learning about programming."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I actually like Atwood's example program:

10 PRINT "I AM THE MAYOR"

20 GOTO 10

If everybody on the planet could write and understand that program, the average level understanding of computer science on the planet would have increased exponentially.

</comment><comment><USER13> How does that old saying go, 'If you have to ask, then the answer is probably no'. It's shocking the number of people that show up on this site and ask, 'Should I quit my job and create a startup?'. Probably not. Should you drop out of college? Don't. Should you learn to code? Not really.

The amount of learning resources we have in this day and age due to the Internet makes the question 'Should I learn (blank)' egregious. If curiosity hasn't compelled you to look up an intro tutorial/book, then just forget about it. The first question you ask on the internet should not be 'Should I learn to code?', it should be 'Why won't my hello-world program run?'.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I wanted to add this to my original post because I think it sums up my point nicely:

"That which interests us in a given situation, that which we are likely to grasp in it first, is the side by which it can respond to a tendency or a need. But a need goes straight to the resemblance or quality; it cares little for individual differences. To this discernment of the useful we may surmise that the perception of animals is, in most cases, confined." \- Bergson from Matter and Memory

Constraints on what we broadly know and understand are constraints on our contact and perception of the world. We can't live in a digital world and be blind to the recursions and graphs in the furniture.

</comment><comment><USER14> I would venture to guess that there are at least a couple dozen skills which would do the average person more good than learning to code: playing a musical instrument, learning to do order-of-magnitude estimations, operate a few power tools, basic carpentry, basic calculus, et so many cetera.

Hell, just learning to _spell_ better than the average HNer.

<comment><USER11> Not sure I agree, how many jobs are there apart from musician or carpenter where these skills would be especially useful?

Now think how many monotonous office jobs are there that could be at least partly automated by a few lines of script?

Also when I was at school we had compulsory music classes as well as compulsory design/technology classes that involved using power tools.

<comment><USER6> It's got nothing to do with learning skills for jobs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> everyone should have a programming class in school. Bio, chem, history, algebra, programming, geometry... Fits in nicely.

</comment><comment><USER16> He wants to know if there are Knuth posters. There are. See this one: <http://laager.firedrake.org/wardrobe/nils_knuth.jpg>

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha, that's awesome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> > If you don't know how to program, you filter out all parts of the world that > involve programming. You miss the loops and divide-and-conquers of everyday > life.

decomposing large problems into smaller ones is math. we all took 10 years of math in high school and college.

a broad education is good. coding, in particular, may or may not be relevant, but certainly more and more schools include a year or two of programming in high school or college. that's probably plenty. no need to get all worked up about this.

<comment><USER11> The problem is that most people don't really learn much math at school. Most people will learn to add , subtract and do multiplication, some will even cram their brains with equations to pass a math exam and then promptly forget it all afterwards.

Programming provides a practical hands on may to introduce logical problem solving. It's something that could be used to supplement Math class.

I find it much easier to understand Mathematical stuff if I have written a program that implements it.

<comment><USER18> You have practical experiments in physics and chemistry but most people don't seem to remember much of them either.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Depressing. Another HN attention grab. The original article was interesting. This one's just words for the sake of it. The most depressing part is that I've now validated it with a comment.</comment>


Ask HN: Can the location of a company help avoid patent disputes? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Patents are territorial. By this I mean that you get a patent to cover a territory e.g. the US or EU. If you have, say, a US patent and someone disputes it in the US then your being located somewhere else doesn't help you any.

<comment><AUTHOR> So, say Big Corp. in the US calls out a company located in another country for patent infringement in their SaaS that is being used by US users, where Big Corp have their territory patent. Are you saying the international company can be sued by the US company? Where would they even sue them since they are not US based and other countries commonly don't acknowledge other countries' IP and laws?

<comment><USER2> If Big Corp has a US patent and Inter Corp is infringing in the US then Big Corp can take them to a US court. If they win then either Inter desists in the US or pays a licence fee (or whatever the court decides).

The fact that Inter Corp is incorporated somewhere else is irrelevant as it's its operation in the US that will be brought to book. Outside of the US it's a different matter and will depend on what international patents Big Corp has, where Inter Corp is infringing etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> try getting a patent in Singapore. it's a neutral country and it is the international arbitration court. even if you can't win, you can put the entity infringing on your patent into a caveat for any jurisdiction in the world.</comment>


Chinese government dropping phone calls if forbidden words are said - <AUTHOR> http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2011/03/china-cuts-off-calls-for-prote.html

<comment><USER2> I was under the impression that running realtime voice-recognition on all the open phone lines at any one moment would require so much computing power that there would be no way you could hide it?

You'd need datacentre after datacentre after datacentre, surely?

Also, state of the art voice recognition is still flakey in a silent, echo free room using a condenser mic. Imagine how flakey its going to be going over chinese copper and GSM codecs. False positives ahoy! Even the chinese govt. has a maximum acceptable false positive rate for this kind of thing.

I haven't believed in this rumour all my life so far when it's been the US govt. claimed to have been doing it, and I don't believe it now that its switched to being the chinese govt. Not without some evidence.

It doesn't even make logical sense. Assuming you could actually do this, why cut the calls off? Why not record them as part of wider evidence gathering?

<comment><USER3> You could do fairly accurate real time voice recognition in 2000 on a home PC. Accuracy was and is an issue, but you only need to tag interesting conversations / people not perfectly transcribe everything. Now finding the lowest cost per FLOP is complex but to be safe let's say 1k of computing can decode 10 phone calls or 100$ / call. Now the amount of time people spend on the phone varies a lot, but let's call it 5% of the time on average to be safe. Edit: each call uses 2 people. Thus somewhere around 1 billion people * .05 / 2 * 100$ = 2.5 billion you could buy the hardware to transcribe everyone's phone calls in china. As to hiding things you could keep the computers anywhere so it would be fairly easy to hide.

PS: I would assume you could probably do it for a lot less but these numbers where just to show it's possible. Doing something like this in the US for ~750 million is going to be vary tempting, but I think the manpower costs for false positives may be the real issue.

<comment><USER2> My point wasn't that it isn't possible. I mean, who's gonna make that bet, especially on this website.

It was more that it would be impossible to do without it being flamboyantly obvious that you're doing it. I was referring to 'hiding' in terms of infosec as opposed to 'hiding' in terms of physically stashing away the boxes.

If they were doing it, we'd have heard from an engineer involved somewhere along the line, as opposed to rumours originating from paranoid citizens.

<comment><USER4> >If they were doing it, we'd have heard from an engineer involved somewhere along the line,

If they were doing it in the US, sure. In China? I have my doubts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I live in China, so I did a quick test with my coworkers. 4 people. Two phone calls each. Each conversation we dropped the word 'protest' in both English and Chinese. No magical dropped calls for us.

<comment><USER6> Thank you. Actual data... it's a powerful thing.

<comment><USER7> Yes, a sample size of two is certainly significant... If you want data it's going to take more than that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think AT&T has this same policy. I'm not sure why 'Hello' is a forbidden word, though.

</comment><comment><USER9> If this actually is true: silly bureaucrats, don't they know that this month's word for protest is obedience?

</comment><comment><USER10> Dear Chinese Government (and other petty dictatorships):

Your time is coming to an end. You can try to initimidate, and beat down dissent all you want. But in the end, freedom will prevail. But to hell with it, Neo said it better:

"I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you."

</comment><comment><USER11> This would be pretty useless, even if true.

"We're having the happy fun obedience rally at six PM."

</comment><comment><USER12> MYTH <http://shanghaiscrap.com/?p=6481>

</comment><comment><USER13> Who writes the software that enables phones to be tapped into? Even the U.S taps into phones, how is this feature protected? I imagine code has to be written to allow someone to listen in your convo, is that IN the droid OS or iOS?

<comment><USER2> Wiretapping isn't done in the handset. As the name suggests, it happens on the wire. At the exchange, in actuality.

<comment><USER14> See also: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2348156>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The british arrested scholars for acquiring al qaeda literature. Cutting a phone call is quite child play in comparison but there's no sense of western ethical superiority mocking the british so it's less fun.

</comment><comment><USER16> There must be a way to overload the system. A protest named like verb maybe?

</comment><comment><USER14> tl;dr:

A->B: "pickles is the new word for f-r-e-e s-p-e-e-c-h. free speech."

<forbidden word detected: free speech. call terminated>

B->A: "So, we were talking about pickles... "

</comment><comment><USER17> From the article, I can't tell whether the word "protest" is filtered, or Shakespeare is filtered - two anecdotes don't make a conclusive evidence.

</comment><comment><USER18> I have a question..

In the Middle East forbidden words and topics get their own 2nd secret language to avoid censorship.

I assume that in China the same cultural effect is in play so what idiot would use the full non allowed words?

The story sounds somewhat questionable..

That is why in the Middle East class are recorded and not dropped as everyone is using a 2nd secret language to talk about forbidden subjects.</comment>