Google is buying Chelsea Market building for over $2B - <AUTHOR> https://therealdeal.com/2018/02/06/google-is-buying-chelsea-market-building-for-2b-plus/ <comment><USER2> This is such a fascinating cycle.

Large pensions & sovereign wealth funds are so desperate for yield vs. low treasuries that they have pushed income producing commercial real estate values to all time highs.

As a result these fund managers are then forced to take on larger risks to cover their liabilities by making larger portfolio allocations into public techs like Google, and privates like AirBNB & Uber.

And this dry powder has helped the technology companies get so insanely big and sophisticated that they are hiring away the best fund guys to manage their own treasury desks and drive commercial real estate transactions like this one!

Funds would have KILLED to get a deal with Google locked into a long term lease.

But because Google is taking themselves off the market as a tenant, the funds again have to go and chase riskier yield, like larger allocations in tech . . . the entire macroeconomy is just turning into a bizarre Möbius strip . . .

<comment><USER3> It also means it is a great time to be able to produce value and be in control of its distribution (eg. start your startup and control the equity). People with lots of money are hungry for yields and will push your valuation higher and higher.

See: cryptocurrencies (bitcoin etc) or sharing economy startups (uber, airbnb etc)

<comment><USER4> Yeah, Uber is perfect example of the superiority of startup founders to run later-stage companies. Can't wait to see where Kalanick takes it next.

Edit: Now I'm wondering if I'm being downvoted by those who don't get the sarcasm, or by Kalanick himself.

<comment><USER5> Could you please not post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Google NYC is literally right across the block from Chelsea Market. This transaction would mean that Google will occupy the real estate above the actual market. Chelsea Market is an amazing place with great offerings of food etc. As long as this transaction does not ruin the ecosystem of CM then New Yorkers are OK with this transaction. Lets face it who would not want to sell their real estate to The Google?

<comment><USER7> There are other office occupants though, and it sounds like Google's going to squeeze them out. So the food offerings might stay, but it's going to begin to feel like a Google cafeteria.

<comment><USER8> Do the businesses in Chelsea Market rely heavily on traffic from the office- workers above? Store-fronts in NYC tend to be pretty disconnected from the office/residential spaces above, with a few notable exceptions.

<comment><USER9> Last time I went to Chelsea Market I got the feeling of "Nobody (local) goes here... there are too many tourists and the experience walking around here is miserable" Times Square-esque

<comment><USER10> I live in the neighborhood. It's a nightmare to walk throthere during the day, but fairly quiet in the morning until 10. Also a decent place to pick up dinner after 6:00, especially if you enter through one of the side doors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> NYC Xoogler here.

Speaking from experience, the main office (111 8th/76 9th) is amazing. I think Google's decision to buy that years ago has totally been vindicated. I'm surprised more high cash surplus companies don't do this, just to control their destiny in a way you simply can't as a tenant (eg if you're a large tenant, each floor you rent in the same building is going to get more expensive, being a tenant limits what you can do).

Other posters have pointed out the Chelsea Market is a mishmash of other buildings (4 IIRC). All true. It's a super-annoying building to get around in though. To get from the 6th floor on one side to the 6th floor on the other side you might have to go to the ground floor and find the right elevator (out of like 20 in 12 different locations) that goes to that floor in that building. Some parts are only served by a single elevator. Others have a bank. Honestly I'd hate to work there, particularly if you had to go through the crowds to get to your one blessed elevator.

One outcome of this might be that Google may well fix this situation by combining floors and elevator banks.

I don't think anything will happen to the ground floor of Chelsea Market.

<comment><USER12> I totally agree.

Fun historical note, IBM generated cash in its early days as Google and Apple do today, it bought a _lot_ of real estate all around the world. In the 90's when it seemed liked it was doomed, it "saved itself" by selling off big chunks of that real estate. That gave the company operating capital without having to go to the equity markets or debt markets.

Given the ups and downs of tech, it seems like a much better place to hold your spare cash than t-bills or other cash equivalent securities.

<comment><USER13> >In the 90's when it seemed liked it was doomed, it "saved itself" by selling off big chunks of that real estate.

Wonder if that was during Lou Gerstner's time as CEO at IBM. I had read his book Who says Elephants can't Dance, about what he did to turn IBM around. It was an interesting read.

Don't remember if selling off some of their real estate was part of what they did, though it could have been.

A review of the book by an IBM insider:

[https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/2071.htm...](https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/rational/library/2071.html)

<comment><USER10> The real estate fire sale started in 1992 along with the spin–outs of various divisions (some of which completed, like IBM Federal Systems and Lexmark, others were halted by Gerstner like AdStar (storage systems) and Pennant (big printers).

<comment><USER13> Interesting. I'm reading that book (again) from the Archive, should be worth it.

<comment><USER13> I read some of it.

This is a good part: The Click Heard Round the World.

It's in Chapter 4: Out to the Field (of the PDF of the book).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Between this $2B deal and the $5B Apple Park deal, I start to wonder how companies are justifying these purchases as remote and distributed work becomes more feasible.

They're probably focused on the fact that productivity is still higher in co- located settings and the best talent pools are in major metro areas. But what if, instead, they invested $500M in remote work research and $500M in building a remote work infrastructure for the company. Then they can go ahead and pocket that extra $1-4B in real estate costs, and perhaps another ~$10B long term as they avoid future real estate purchases and scale this across the company. Also, save several hundred million in hiring and retention, as they attract more talent from around the world and retain employees by offering remote work as a benefit.

Could this be a more forward-thinking approach? I'm merely posing the question.

Real estate is super expensive, and most people would consider being able to live anywhere a huge perk. In other words, the only reason talent is so concentrated in New York, is because it has to be right now. But what will happen as more companies offer distributed work? Will people choose to continue living in metro areas with astronomical costs of living (perhaps even away from family or in a climate they don't prefer)? Or will they leave and work from wherever they want? And then what will happen to the value of this real estate? And what will happen to the companies that invested in it?

I find it odd that innovative tech companies seem to not be questioning one of the more non-innovative and dogmatic practices of today - physical office space. Not only that, but they're investing billions into that idea. Why not challenge it?

Or what if you took a hybrid approach? Have a collaborative space in New York that everyone can use to come together, but everyone can also work from home. You may be able to cut down the required space by 3-4x.

<comment><USER15> I don't think working remote has proven itself fully. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

> They're probably focused on the fact that productivity is still higher in > co-located settings and the best talent pools are in major metro areas.

Exactly this.

<comment><USER14> Definitely. But there's also been very little investment into remote work, both from a research and infrastructure perspective.

I just wonder, if they were to take some of this cash and invest it into proving out remote work, would it turn out to be a better long term investment?

In most of the cases that I've observed, companies enter into remote work literally by just letting their employees start working remotely. Maybe they get a nice contract with Zoom and hire a specialized lawyer or two. But what if we were to really try investing in it, in the same way (or even in a fraction of the way) that we're investing in real estate?

<comment><USER16> Another point that I'm not sure gets much attention is that, as these companies build huge campuses and spread out to multiple locations across a region, how co-located are employees anyway? Sure you can move people around to be with primary teams but it's certainly not like everyone can pop over to talk with someone or can depend on a lot of serendipitous hallway conversations.

<comment><USER14> That's a great point. Google tends to collocate teams by product, so that may be their answer to this. But it's true that you'll eventually reach a scale where you're going to have daily remote interactions, regardless of whether those people are in an office or not. Even at the Googleplex, if you're in an office across campus, it's better to connect to the meeting remotely than walk over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I first heard about this deal around Thanksgiving. I am curious how everyone kept the real estate brokers' mouths shut for this long. For New York City, this might be a record.

<comment><USER18> Because it's not really news? Google has been growing in Chelsea for years.

<comment><USER17> > _it 's not really news?_

Yes, it is. It's a large deal for a large plot of land in the centre of a neighborhood legendarily protective of itself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> $1600/ft seems shockingly high for commercial real estate, even in New York. Just because you have lots of money (that theoretically belongs to your shareholders) doesn't mean you should overpay.

<comment><USER20> It's not shockingly high by a long shot. Paying 1.6M for a 1000 sq ft condo in that area is totally feasible.

<comment><USER21> Unless I'm mistaken, isn't commercial real estate usually cheaper than residential?

<comment><USER19> Yes, it is. That was my point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> What is it with Google and food warehouses? Its Chicago HQ used to be a meat cold storage facility.

[https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/2015/03/12/dogs-and- adap...](https://www.chicagoarchitecture.org/2015/03/12/dogs-and-adaptive-re- use-in-a-single-story-but-of-course/)

<comment><USER23> Easy to convert to an open office I guess?

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Wow, they really got a good deal on the 111 Eighth Avenue, they bought it in 2010 by $610/sqft, and now it is probably worth the same as the Chelsea Market, $1600/sqft, a 160% return on the investment.

<comment><USER25> Annually that was "only" 13% which is still great but not 160%-great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> At what point does it become cheaper to buy real estate in cheaper cities and use the excess money to attract talent there?

<comment><USER27> Depends on just what drives the desirability, I think.

Google is covering their bases in terms of both "suburban areas" (Mountain View) and "dense cities." So they can attract people who prefer either style of living.

If there's a significant subset that prefers "cheap" directly, then they're missing out on that group. Otherwise, it might be more cost effective to simply keep offering higher wages in the high-cost areas, if cost and desirability are roughly correlated for most people.

Where I see it breaking down personally is that the expensive areas aren't that bad for 20-something folks who want to rent anyway. Say you throw an extra ten to twenty grand a year at rent, that can be easily covered by a compensation premium. But once you start looking at moving from renter to buyer, down payment requirements make expensive areas a lot rougher. This might be fine at Google-level compensation, but there's a lot of other companies who could have a harder and harder time retaining people as they age.

<comment><USER28> They haven't covered rural. I don't think they are even close.

I know people in multiple states who like to shoot rifles (AR-15 style) and shotguns in their yards. One hunts pigs in his backyard. A different one can hunt turkey.

I can't really imagine that in Mountain View or San Francisco or Manhattan.

And yes, those people are tech talent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Interesting to see that Chelsea Market Google My Business listing isn't claimed yet.

</comment><comment><USER30> I wonder if this has anything to do with the Cyber NYC effort? [https://www.nycedc.com/opportunity/cyber-nyc- rfp](https://www.nycedc.com/opportunity/cyber-nyc-rfp)

One of the stated objectives is to actually build out a Cyber Center in NYC as part of the jobs program. This could potentially align with Alphabet's recent "Chronicle" business being launched? I looked thru the NYCEDC Suppliers/bidders, didn't see anything resembling alphabet or chronicle though.

<comment><USER31> Doubt it. It most likely has to deal with Google continuing to expand its NYC office, and thus needing more office space.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I visited Chelsea Market Google offices by mistake. I was at the market, and not knowing so much about it, I though that was small. So me and a friend got into the elevator to go to the next floor.

The elevator just opens and there it is. It was Google´s offices with a big green Android figure. I took a picture and just went back to the market using the elevator.

As it was a weekend, I was on vacation, there was no one.

So "suddenly Google" is one of my memories to my travel to New York.

</comment><comment><USER33> I wonder if this will be used for Google NYC HQ, or is Google attempting to get into the co-working game?

<comment><USER31> This area already is our NYC HQ, and we own the much bigger 111 8th Ave building next door too. We've got many thousands of employees here already; no speculation is needed as to its status.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> "Peter Thiel comment about Google not having good ideas for how to spend their money"

<comment><USER35> What's wrong with expanding / not leasing a long term office ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Google has largely ruined Boulder, CO after building a huge new sprawling thing and effectively dictating to locals and politicians exactly how they want the neighborhood and city to be structured going forward. Everyone who isn't a googler hates them and wishes we hadn't allowed that, much less given them massive amounts of corporate welfare.

Resist googlers if you can, they destroy communities.

<comment><USER37> The real answer is for cities to be built up so much that even a Google-sized company is a drop in the bucket. Google NYC right now is about one city block (111 8th), expanding to two. That's a tiny part of Manhattan, which isn't even all of NYC.

My old church is located under the old Citigroup Center skyscraper at 601 Lexington, which is also an entire block; Citigroup used to have both that building and the block across the street, 399 Park, for a couple of decades. When they moved out of those buildings to another neighborhood in Manhattan, that caused a drop in noon mass attendance but that was really about it. Their presence didn't destroy the neighborhood, let alone the city, and their move didn't destroy it either.

The fact that NYC is capable of handling Citigroup-sized companies and Google- sized companies moving in and barely even noticing is one of the deep reasons I like living in NYC. I wish more other cities would do the same, because I don't think there's anything unique to NYC about the ability to do this. Maybe population - although the Denver-Aurora-Bolder metropolitan area, at 3M, isn't _that much_ smaller than NYC (8.5M). The internet is telling me the Google Boulder office can support up to 1,500 employees. You shouldn't give them corporate welfare, but also you should just be able to accommodate them without that, they're not that big. It should just be a building, and you should have lots of those.

<comment><USER38> >The real answer is for cities to be built up so much that even a Google-sized company is a drop in the bucket.

That's a repulsive suggestion to many people who live in Boulder. Living in a city of <250k people is a feature, not a bug. Boulder is not cheap, if people wanted density they could already move to Denver for the same price and climate.

<comment><USER39> Boulder can't have it both ways: you can't ask for blockbuster skyline employers _and_ low density; or, you can, but as you can see from SFBA, the result is inhumane.

If Boulder wants to be Ann Arbor of the Mountains, that's fine. But I suspect that's not what Boulder really wants; people who live in Boulder want to have a competitive employment market with multiple options for where to work and little risk of being forced to relocate out of town if their job doesn't work out. That's a basket of benefits that you can't humanely get while holding density constant.

<comment><USER38> Boulder doesn't 'want things' as an entity. The people that will be hurt by Google moving in were not the people clamoring for large employers for well- off people in the first place.

So it's not a case of wanting things both ways, it's a case of the city choosing economic expansion over the subset of people that want to keep things affordable and uncrowded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Excellent. instead of hiring some poor chaps to remove some of the spam, lets give more money to the poor chap who owns whatever building.

</comment><comment><USER41> Nooooooo! I love the Chelsea Market :/

<comment><USER42> It's not like CM first level is going to change. The other floors are just offices, perhaps a majority of it already allocated to Google.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> So Google is buying the real estate for office use. I guess it is not something like Amazon buying Whole Foods, right?</comment>


Russian who buried himself alive dies by mistake - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13623938 <comment><USER2> That was somehow sorted out by the Mythbusters (Season 1, Episode 8). Or is news of Russians burying themselves a meta-urban myth?</comment>


"I would dial the 300 baud dial-up number, and scream the carrier tone." - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2011/11/11/10235970.aspx <comment><USER2> I have a very low voice and enjoy singing or humming along with the bass line in music some times. While I was singing along with a song, all of a sudden my monitor started to go a bit nuts and wave. When I stopped singing (or changed notes) it stopped.

I turned to my roommate, "Can you see that?"

"Nope."

It turned out that if I sang a note at the same frequency as my monitor's refresh rate, the image on the screen would start to modulate up and down in a wavy sort of way. But to my eyes alone. Must have been something with the motion of my eyes or my head matching the refreshing of the screen.

<comment><USER3> I think that's exactly right. Try chewing crackers or chips (the crunchier the better) while looking at an LED clock (like a microwave). Most work, depends on refresh rate. There's a good chance you'll see the same sort of waviness.

<comment><USER4> blowing a raspberry achieves the same effect.

<comment><USER5> And now my screen has tiny specs of spit on it.

Well played sir, well played.

<comment><USER4> it really does work with things like alarm clocks.

<comment><USER5> Yeah, it does. Tried it with my alarm clock and got it to work. Just thought I'd remind people to think before trying it on their computers. ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I used to pulse dial a phone using the hook switch to get free calls. There was a phone in the bar in my college that only accepted incoming calls. It did this by having no dial. Of course, that didn't stop you from tapping out the phone number if you could get the beat right.

The other stupid phone that I hacked around was a pay phone in a flat that I rented where you'd pick up the handset and get a dial tone but the keypad was inoperative unless you put in money. Hello DTMF pocket dialer.

It's not unreasonable to think that someone could emulate the carrier tone with their voice. After all the modem had to work inside the frequency range used for voice communications.

<comment><USER7> I think I read somewhere that the system was designed specifically for this kind of attack. It uses two tones of widely different frequencies.

Of course, if you had a friend....

<comment><USER8> The tones used in DTMF were chosen to minimize _accidental_ talk-off. They're relatively widely separated, with no harmonic relationship between any given pair.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> When I was a kid, I'd load executables into a text editor or hex editor to see what was inside. I quickly figured out how to identify uncompressed graphics and audio data by sight, and to identify various opcodes by their ASCII interpretation. It made ripping and patching a lot quicker since I could eyeball it first before deep diving, and made it trivial to find encrypted portions in the executable.

I still do it sometimes.

Another, less useful skill (now) was the ability to detect a failing floppy disk by resting my hand on top of the drive while it was reading. I also resurrected a couple of seized hard drives by opening the case and spinning up the platter with my finger, much to the shock and dismay of onlookers.

<comment><USER10> >> I also resurrected a couple of seized hard drives by opening the case and spinning up the platter with my finger.

Cool. So the speed of the spinning does not need to be some constant?

<comment><USER9> You just need to get the drive spinning. The motor will set it to a constant speed, but when the drive has seized, it can't start the platter spinning to begin with.

However, once you open the drive, you have VERY limited time to copy the data off since it's designed to run in clean room conditions (internally).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I could hear the extremely high-pitched capacitor singing in many CRTs, allowing me to determine before I walked in a room if there was a TV or computer monitor on.

It was awesome. Felt like my very own mutant power.

<comment><USER12> I think a lot of children can do this. I remember in middle school the entire class complaining that the TV was on, with a blank screen, and the teacher having no idea how we knew.

<comment><USER13> It has to do with how hearing degrades as a person ages. Some places use this to their advantage and install devices that emit high pitches so as to stop teenagers from loitering there. I know the Ikea in Brooklyn has it, for example.

<comment><USER14> Problem is, as I aged, all the CRTs disappeared. So which is it?!@!1!?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> When I was a kid, I took apart an old VHS deck. One of the huge ones, from when they first came out. Not sure what I thought I was doing, but I proceeded to attach the output of the transformer into the transmitting portion of an old rotary phone I had also disassembled. Our phone line went dead. According to our neighbors, our subdivision's entire phone network went down too. Not sure if that's true or not, but I am definitely surprised I didn't burn down the house that day.

<comment><USER16> If I am not mistaken this was the essence of the (fictional) 'blotto box'. The recipe entailed hooking a power generator into a phone trunk line and taking out the majority of a subdivisions phone circuits. I was written up in many of the phreaker/anarchy text mags that were popular at the time, but I never heard of anyone actually trying it. I'm also pretty sure the authors were not aware of things like fuses...

Brings back fond memories though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Order a pizza from the campus online computer, crash computer, call inquiring about the status of said pizza, receive many apologies and a free pizza. Not proud of it anymore though.

</comment><comment><USER18> I used to be able to tell which of the long row of Model 33 TTY's was left on at the college computer center by whistling the 300 baud carrier and modulating it a little. The ones that were on would start typing gibberish.

</comment><comment><USER19> Some of us radio hams still whistle up a repeater station instead of sending the (normally) 1750hz tone to activate it!

</comment><comment><USER20> A friend would call with his computer out of the blue. I'd hear the tone, and whistle the matching tone back to keep it happy until I could get my own computer up and running to link up.

</comment><comment><USER21> Back in my phreaking days, I was grounded so often that out of sheer boredom I learned to whistle DTMF tones. I could dial a number simply by whistling it.

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought the key word in "DTMF" was "Dual"? How do you whistle two frequencies at once? Or was the receiving end just very forgiving?

<comment><USER22> Mongolian throat singing.

<comment><USER23> You can't generate DTMF tones with throat singing. I do some throat singing, and a better name for it is overtone singing. You're not producing two different fundamental tones as DTMF would require, you're producing one fundamental tone and then emphasizing and suppressing various harmonics (overtones).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I used to run a BBS in my teens (USR 2.400 -> USR 56k modems -> ISDN) and can still hear exactly where in the handshake a connection fails.

It's my only super power :(

<comment><USER25> I also used to run a BBS. We had a small enough userbase (a couple hundred folks, with maybe 30-40 real diehards) and modem tones were unique enough above 14.4K that I could tell with reasonable certainty whom was calling in at any given time. I don't know if this would scale but it was pretty handy for freaking out anyone who happened to be hanging out in the computer room.

Also, at no point did I abuse my local console access powers to cause people to fly into heavily fortified sectors in Trade Wars. That would be mean.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> From the comments:

"I used to be able to tell whether a CRT monitor or TV was on or off being in a different room. I guess I could hear the 50Hz?"

I am able to do this as well and usually attribute that to the fact that I grew up in a household without a TV. I could enter a house and immediately tell whether someone watched TV in the basement. Now, the question I have that I never got around asking:

Is this due to most people just not being able to hear those frequencies or just the fact that this sound is so common that most people just don't notice it anymore?

<comment><USER27> I could too but dont think I can anymore as have got older, though hard to find a crt to check. Suspect a lot of people just could never hear that high.

Though curiously I grew up without a tv too...

<comment><USER28> I grew up with TVs and still can hear most of the CRT sets. It's because, IIRC, the horizontal sync frequency is around 15KHz which is higher than what most people hear. The sound gets significantly louder when the TV loses signal. The same happens with NTSC/PAL frequency computer monitors (I restore and collect vintage computers, so I have a healthy collection of those).

Oddly, some higher resolution screens (XGA and above) also emit a high pitch noise. Unless there is some frequency multiplication going on, they shouldn't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I've done this, too. Only I would whistle. Start low and gradually rise. Eventually I'd hit the right frequency.

The application was when I answered the phone and heard nothing. Sometimes it was a spurious call from a modem. Maybe a wrong number. Maybe a friend thinking I'd be available for a chat (houses usually had just one phone line back then).

BTW, I'm not sure I quite believe the story from the post. If my memory serves me correctly, it is the _answering_ modem that would produce a tone first.

</comment><comment><USER30> Yep. I did that too.

I was younger and my voice hadn't changed so it wasn't so much of a scream, more of a loud "Eeeeeeeeee...". Though I doubt it was any less annoying to the adults around.

</comment><comment><USER31> I can make a fairly accurate guess of what type of scan an MRI scanner is running by the noise it makes. T2, PDFS, T1, types of gradient echoes etc. I'm not alone in this and know a fair few people who can. I have managed to tell when a scan is badly set up with this technique too, really surprises people!

</comment><comment><USER32> I used to live in a small village with a "party line".[1]

People would know if you just picked up the handset, but you could put the phone on a bowl to listen in on other people's calls.

[1] (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_line_(telephony)>)

</comment><comment><USER33> I could - and still can - make a pretty damn good estimation of a CRT monitor's refresh rate. I can distinguish between 60Hz, 80Hz and 100Hz with reasonable accuracy (in steps of about 20Hz). Also, anything below 80Hz gives me terrible headaches.

</comment><comment><USER34> I badly want to hear a recording of this.

</comment><comment><USER35> I spent hours as a young phone phreak trying to sieze an international (phone) trunk by whistling 2600hz like cap'n crunch did to sieze 800 trunks in the US and get free phone calls. It never worked because to sieze an international CCITT5 trunk you'd use a combo of 2400/2600hz. But I did it anyway when I was bored and tried to modulate a bit of 2400hz in there - figured one day I'd get lucky.

</comment><comment><USER36> In the early 90's I used an old VCR tuner (over the air) to listen to telephone conversations people were making. I lived in an extremely rural area and had few neighbors.

<comment><USER37> I did something similar to this. I found that if I held down the talk button on a walkie-talkie and crossed its antenna with that of a portable TV, I was able to tune into analog cellular calls. I would adjust the frequency on the (analog, nondiscrete) TV tuner to listen to different calls.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I can ballpark the RGB components of any color. :)</comment>


A Google Tour Through 'The Underground', a Russian Novel Set in the Moscow Metro - <AUTHOR> http://lithub.com/a-google-tour-through-the-underground/ <comment><USER2> I though this was about Metro 2033.

It certainly made me think differently about that novel until I realised it was a totally different book.

</comment><comment><USER3> It might also be mentioned in this context that Russia is ripe with vampirism:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_(2004_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_\(2004_film\))

Watch your step down there.</comment>


Ask HN: What product or service do you forsea dead in 10 years? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Home phone service...I haven't used a landline phone at home for at least a decade, and if it weren't for my cable company bundling it for free with internet and TV I wouldn't have one now. Mobile devices are more convenient and calling minutes are irrelevant these days.

Fax machines...I'm baffled that these are still around, especially with internet and camera phones being more convenient for sharing documents. If you need something more professional, there should be an internet connected version of a fax that supports email or mms.

Broadcast TV (other than news or live events)...it's been a decade since I tuned in live to watch a TV show. DVR was the norm for a time, but on demand like Netflix or amazon are more convenient.</comment>


Waterproof, credit card sized computer laughs at the Raspberry Pi - <AUTHOR> http://www.redferret.net/?p=40524

<comment><USER2> _The price for all this luxurious state of the art tech starts at around $300, which makes it affordable, but not really Raspberry Pi cheap by any stretch._

The Raspberry Pi laughs at a product touting marginal superiority at 12x the price.

</comment><comment><USER3> At $300 this is a tough price point, for $50 more I could get a fully functional laptop, sort of this system with a hard disk, monitor, keyboard and CD-ROM.

On the other hand, for $300 I could get 8 Raspberry Pi B's.

So while it's cool and all, not sure how it well sell at that price.

<comment><USER4> Yes I felt the same way once I read the price. For $300 dlls you can basically buy this: [http://bit.ly/1fFIAlI](http://bit.ly/1fFIAlI)

Honestly just for the added form factory and the water proof feature I would buy the laptop.

I think the biggest feature of the Raspberry pi is that it is cheap enough that you can give it away to show your software. Additionally you can scale your apps horizontally and basically create a grid without going bankrupt.</comment></comment>


Generalized Language Models - <AUTHOR> https://lilianweng.github.io/lil-log/2019/01/31/generalized-language-models.html <comment><USER2> Just came to post this link as well. Progress in machine translation has truly been amazing. Also check out the recent work from Google on Transformer-XL

[https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/01/transformer-xl- unleashing-...](https://ai.googleblog.com/2019/01/transformer-xl-unleashing- potential-of.html)

And for deep background, these recent sets of notes from Stanford's Deep Learning NLP class:

[http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs224n/](http://web.stanford.edu/class/cs224n/)

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3FW7Lu3i5Jsnh1rnUwq_...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3FW7Lu3i5Jsnh1rnUwq_TcylNr7EkRe6)

</comment><comment><USER3> Hmm, the article's summary table showed "only the top task layer(s)" for BERT fine-tuning. Is that correct?

The original paper [1] wrote:

"All of the parameters of BERT and W are fine-tuned jointly to maximize the log-probability of the correct label."

[1]: [https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805](https://arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805)

<comment><USER4> thanks! my text should be correct but the table is wrong. just fixed.</comment></comment>


A Colombian I.T. Guy Helped U.S. Authorities Take Down El Chapo - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/nyregion/el-chapo-trial.html <comment><USER2> Didn't we talk about this 6 days ago?[1]

[1] - [https://gizmodo.com/the-feds-cracked-el-chapos-encrypted- com...](https://gizmodo.com/the-feds-cracked-el-chapos-encrypted- communications-net-1831595734)

<comment><USER3> Yes, here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18866729](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18866729).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > _The I.T. specialist, Christian Rodriguez, had recently developed an > extraordinary product: an encrypted communications system for Joaquín Guzmán > Loera, the Mexican drug lord known as El Chapo_

Interesting they decided to roll their own instead of _e.g._ piggybacking on Signal. (Or something open source and Tor-based.)

<comment><USER5> They built their own gorilla cell network at one point.

<comment><USER6> Small correction of what I'm guessing is a typo, it's guerilla rather than gorilla. Sorry for my pedantry.

<comment><USER5> I used the incorrect version of a similar word. Get over it. I could edit but now won't even bother.

<comment><USER7> They were trying to be helpful. Is there any wording of this kind of correction that you would have graciously accepted?

<comment><USER5> Nope, they were just trying to be right over a trivial spelling mistake on the internet. People that do that are the same people that others avoid at dinner parties.

<comment><USER7> I get that most spelling corrections on internet discussion boards are like that, but I don't think that's the case here.

It was a substantive error in the use of a whole word/phrase, and the commenter was trying to do you a favour by relieving you from that misconception for the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I really hope they are keeping his family safe. The cartels are pretty nasty. Just watch Narcos, Narcos: Mexico ("Season 2" of Narcos) and El Chapo on Netflix (both in mostly Spanish, especially El Chapo) and see all the crazy history.

<comment><USER9> I've never been to South America and I have only a couple friends from there, but I've watched these shows and they definitely look like exaggerated propaganda. Same way my country and my nation is always portrayed by Hollywood: grumpy blood thirsty villains dreaming of killing all people in the world. So I don't really believe it.

<comment><USER10> They look exaggerated but aren't. The true extent of Cartel violence is far, far worse than what these series show, and it got worse in the past couple decades than it ever was in the 80s. The propaganda is mostly about the role of America in the region.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I guess you need to be selective about who your clients are. Just because they can pay you very well and buy any equipment or service you suggest, doesn't mean you should have them as a client. You don't want a client who will hunt you down and kill you if the network goes down. :(

</comment><comment><USER12> The ongoing travails of the unnecessary drug war.

<comment><USER13> Except now the cartels have expanded into smuggling people (and the attendant unsavory side businesses), and may make more money from that than drugs. It may seem unnecessary, but there's a lot of real human suffering directly arising from cartel activities. I certainly think there are better approaches to stopping them than what we've been doing for the last 30 years though.

<comment><USER6> _Except now the cartels have expanded into smuggling people (and the attendant unsavory side businesses), and may make more money from that than drugs. It may seem unnecessary, but there 's a lot of real human suffering directly arising from cartel activities. I certainly think there are better approaches to stopping them than what we've been doing for the last 30 years though._

Untangling the "war on drugs" from the issue of human trafficking and other ills has to be desirable for everyone involved except the cartels. If you want a war on human trafficking, I don't think you'd get much pushback, but let's stop conflating that with drugs. Remember that almost 2/3rds of the drugs coming through is pot, which is a ridiculous thing even just from a trade- balance perspective.

At any rate, if smuggling drugs becomes unprofitable, cartels will still be forced to massively downsize. That will impact their whole operational space, human trafficking included.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Great! Let's put it all over the news!

<comment><USER15> You can't stop what happens in the courts from becoming public (which is how this information got out). It helps put scrutiny on police tactics anyway, which then helps the average person defend themselves against abuse of power.

Law enforcement will always have an advantage over criminals anyway. Even if we know their tactics, they still have full access to phones, networks, business databases, they can coerce people to turn informant, etc, etc, etc. They'll still win.

Law enforcement information control is overrated in its utility. Not to mention 99.9% of criminals make dumb mistakes (which is all it takes to get caught, one minor mistake).

<comment><USER16> I think you're misreading the concern. It's the difference between public knowledge and common knowledge.

The cartel in question would already know about this IT guy, they don't need the media to mention it because it's already _public_ knowledge. But without the media mentioning, it wouldn't be _common_ knowledge. The difference is important to criminals concerned with reputation. If the IT guy was public knowledge but not common knowledge, the cartel would almost certainly be interested in his assassination, to send a message that they're not to be crossed. But with the IT guy being _common_ knowledge, the value of assassinating him skyrockets. Bringing the IT guy into common knowledge could encourage more members of the public to believe the cartel is weak enough to be betrayed. This is obviously good for the authorities, who want more people to betray cartels, but bad for the cartels who control people through fear. The remedy for the cartel is to devote even more manpower to tracking down the IT guy and killing him.

These sort of news articles are good for the general public, but dangerous for the individual IT guy.</comment></comment></comment>


The Australian Business Register now supports IE 5.0 and Netscape 6.0 - <AUTHOR> https://abr.gov.au/

<comment><USER2> Also, in the "Technical troubleshooting" page ([http://help.abr.gov.au/content.asp?sid=42&doc=/content/1...](http://help.abr.gov.au/content.asp?sid=42&doc=/content/17885.htm&usertype=BC)) Problem: "Screen not displaying properly", Solution: Your display is not set to 800 x 600 pixels. Haha.

What's even more pathetic is that the page also talks about using OS X Lion even though it still displays that message!</comment>


Why we are the biggest obstacles to our own growth - <AUTHOR> http://weblog.raganwald.com/2008/04/why-we-are-biggest-obstacle-to-our-own.html

<comment><USER2> Summary for this: Be open minded because close minded people are assholes.</comment>


Chromium Blog: Does Your Browser Behave? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/03/does-your-browser-behave.html <comment><USER2> I really wish standards bodies would create validation tests like this so that implementers can better ensure that they are compliant. It seems that reference implementations and test suites would improve standards compliance immensely.

<comment><USER3> I believe that such test suites would rival the complexity of the practical implementations. Reference implementations sound nice, and may work well for small things, but become large engineering efforts where they are really needed.

What would a reference implementation of a Linux distribution look like, for example?

<comment><USER4> Perhaps something like this? <http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Now we need something like this for CSS/html to test _all_ the standards as opposed to some of the standards that most benchmarks do (AFAIK).

<comment><USER5> There are official test suits to go with CSS available from the W3C - here's the latest snapshot of the one for CSS2.1:

<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS2.1/20100127/>

This version currently has 8777 tests, covers most areas of the spec but isn't complete.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> <http://sputnik.googlelabs.com/compare>

I'm surprised to see Opera 10.50 beat out Chrome and Firefox.</comment>


Ask HN: What ever happened to Slide (Max Levchin)? - <AUTHOR>

A year or two ago this startup was all the rage.  Does anyone know how it's doing? <comment><USER2> Slide has 15M monthly users on Facebook (Zynga has 222M).

Slide missed the whole gaming trend, which was a serious mistake. Games seem to be the only sustainable app model on Facebook.</comment>


OpenBSD overhauls OpenSSL with new LibreSSL project - <AUTHOR> http://www.sdtimes.com/OPENBSD_TO_PATCH_HEARTBLEED_WITH_LIBRESSL/By_Rob_Marvin/About_HEARTBLEED_and_OPENBSD_and_OPENSSL_and_LIBRESSL/70105

<comment><USER2> It would have been more accurate to say "OpenBSD plans to overhaul ...". Given the complexity of the original code, it's risky to speak in the past tense before creating a replacement.</comment>


Meeker: Latest Slides on Internet Trends/Data - <AUTHOR> http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/06/meeker_latest_s.html

<comment><USER2> 53 pages slides! that's huge, good stuff! these are what i capture from page 1 to 10, need to get back to work.

mobile internet: 86 mil subscribers of iphone/itouch alone. more than desktop internet devices. smartphones > pcs. more powerful processors & greater 3g penetration. # i ask myself, can the telco deliver all these data to all its subscribers?

mobile usage: 43% search, followed by social networking, news, etc. avg 47 apps downloaded on iphone/itouch from 200k app pool. android has 50k app pool, avg 22 app downloaded. # 86 mil iphone/itouch users and only 200k app, there are still quite a lot of opportunities for growth. wonder how many android handsets are there in the market now?</comment>


Ask HN: Freelancers, what do you use to for time management and invoicing? - <AUTHOR> I'm doing more and more freelance work and need a better way of invoicing with time tracking + expenses. One that takes an online payment from a client would be great, but not required. <comment><USER2> For time tracking, I've been using mite by quirky German company Yolk: [http://mite.yo.lk/](http://mite.yo.lk/)

Weird name but the product has a great UX and a no-frills approach with focus on just the essential features including an API. At 5 EUR per user per month it's reasonably priced as well.

For invoicing I use a plain and simple LibreOffice spreadsheet template and email.

I do my expense tracking in Evernote.

</comment><comment><USER3> Check out Cushion App: [http://cushionapp.com/](http://cushionapp.com/). I don't use it, but I follow his blog and he has some very thoughtful posts on design.

</comment><comment><USER4> I like invoiceninja. No connection, just a happy user.

It's been going a few years, open source, free (paid option for no branding), payment gateways and so far has been reliable. You can also set scheduled recurring invoices, even on the free tier.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, I'll take a look.</comment></comment>


Show HN: My 15 minute project: PimpMySalary.com - <AUTHOR> http://pimpmysalary.com/

<comment><USER2> The site provides no useful information for people who are entering information of suspect reliability.

Your user is faced with nothing of value other than your assurance (in repeated caps) that things should remain anonymous.

Why not give a better picture of what on earth is going on, otherwise it's just a form to submit some numbers, and an email.

<comment><USER3> "City, State, Country" doesn't work well for those folks not residing in the USA. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

"What industry" might also be rather unclear. What if I'm writing a web page for Exxon? Is my industry "Software Development?" "Web Development?" "Oil?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> A currency would be useful.

<comment><AUTHOR> I was figuring I'd just determine the currency based on location but I've added a note into the form to include AUD, USD, GBP etc. in the yearly salary figure. Also I'm sure people will include the currency figure (eg. a euro symbol, dollar sign) if nothing else so I should be able to tell.</comment></comment>


Why Geographic Clusters Are Impossible to Prove - <AUTHOR> http://www.newsweek.com/2016/07/29/geographic-cancer-clusters-industrial-polluters-481423.html <comment><AUTHOR> I read this and was struck by this paragraph:

 _According to an inventory Duke Energy filed with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) for 2010, the [Coal power] plant released more than 800,000 pounds of toxic pollutants into the air, as well as 32,000 pounds of arsenic, 7,333 pounds of chromium, 4,000 pounds of cobalt and other toxic heavy metals into the pond, all of which residents worry is seeping into the groundwater. This is especially significant in Belews Creek, where many locals rely on wells for their drinking water._

And think, _this_ is the preferable to nuclear power? Of course it isn't, but people don't often get thrown in their face just how damaging coal fired plants are to their environment _when properly operated!_

<comment><USER2> Coal is one of the nastiest, polluting, disgusting ways to produce electricity. Often, it's even the case that burning coal leaves a radioactive slag (because of materials that came with the coal while mining) so that a coal powerplant has radioactive waste too!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> >A 2007 study by University of Michigan researchers seemed to back Gesell up, showing those living within 2 miles of the Field Laboratory were 60 percent more likely to be stricken with cancers of the thyroid, upper digestive tract, bladder, blood and lymph tissue than those who lived more than 5 miles away.

What's the likelihood that a randomly selected geographic point in the U.S. will yield that same contrast of 60%?

</comment><comment><USER4> The difficulty of analyzing clusters suggests a strategy for polluters. You could estimate, for any given area, how much increased cancer risk would be hard to distinguish from confounding factors. Areas with distinctive socioeconomic or racial groups, or pre-existing polluters, or elevated background radiation have obvious confounds so it'll be harder in the future to show a causal link from any particular polluter's operations. Also, areas with transient populations or with a cultural aversion to health care make it difficult to prove that pollution causes problems.

I think it's already true that US polluters tend to operate in such regions. Do people know if the above theory is known and applied, or if they operate in such regions just because land and labor is cheap?

<comment><USER5> Naively, the poorest people are the least able to uproot and move somewhere else, so if you put a NIMBY like a coal power plant near them, everyone who can afford to leave will move away, leaving only the poorest.

Furthermore, the presence of the power plant will drive property values down, placing it higher on the afforability list for people that are poor and in the market for property.

Give some time for these two factors to play out, and you'll only have poor people living next to a power plant even if it didn't always start off that way.

<comment><USER6> Which is still sort of outrageous in a quite empty place like the US. The people consuming the energy should be paying for a nice setback from the power plant.

I guess a complicating factor is that access to water makes it easier to run a power plant and is also something desirable for residential areas. I'm sitting about 2 miles from a now shuttered coal plant. So is about 1/3 of the population of the county, because the towns developed by the water, before electrification.</comment></comment></comment>


Modding MacBook Air SuperDrive to Work with Other PCs - <AUTHOR> http://tnkgrl.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/macbook-air-superdrive-for-all/

<comment><USER2> It would be interesting if tnkgrl would measure the current on the power lines during a burn. That device is spec'd at about twice the USB power limit. (5.25w v. 2.5w).

So it may work for you, but it also may not depending on your USB host hardware and how serious it is about protecting itself from overcurrent loads.

Wandering further from topic, I noticed the new USB micro combined A/B connectors have higher current limits. Perhaps the standards group is considering a USB "higher power" variant. With the increasing use of USB as battery charger it could help.

<comment><USER2> There are people claiming the drive only draws 500mA based on the fact that it shows up when plugged into mortal computers and claims 500mA. I think this is poor reasoning. There is no way for it to legally ask for more than 500mA in the USB protocol, so it asks for all it can and then uses some secondary mechanism to decide if it can really run.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Very nice hack. I didn't realise the external MacBook Air drive was incompatible with other devices, it strikes me as another one of those unnecessary "shame on you, Apple" decisions that keep me on the fence about their products.</comment>


U.S. Targets Buyers of China-Bound Luxury Cars - <AUTHOR> http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/dealbook/2014/02/11/u-s-targets-buyers-of-china-bound-luxury-cars/?nl=business&emc=edit_dlbkam_20140212 <comment><USER2> That's where the EU is actually great.

Car manufacturers (notably VW and BMW) where punished with 100s M Euro fines for enforcing that their Italian dealerships do not sell to Swiss customers, even though Switzerland is not part of the EU.

The situation is, of course, exactly the opposite in that Swiss customers profited from cheaper Italian prices.

The EU commission takes a very dim view on attempts to subvert the free market by manufacturers.

This seems exactly the opposite from the US, where big business is protected, but not the customer.

<comment><USER3> >> subvert the free market by manufacturers

Whatever people (in this case, manufacturers) do IS free market. Regulation is subversion.

<comment><USER4> Well, by that token regulation is also the free market, by virtue of regulatory capture, and words cease to mean anything at all.

Fact is, as his high holiness Milton Friedman himself argued, business is not a friend of the free market:

 _Almost every businessman is in favor of free enterprise for everybody else, but special privilege and special government protection for himself. As a result, they have been a major force in undermining the free enterprise system. Stop kidding yourself into thinking you can use the business community as a way to promote free enterprise. Unfortunately, most of them are not our friends in that respect._

[http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/06/milton-friedman-on-the- diff...](http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/06/milton-friedman-on-the-difference- between-being-pro-free-enterprise-from-being-pro-business/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I know of several businesses here (Europe) that specialize in importing cars from the USA. It is ridiculous how much more expensive a similar Mercedes Benz or a BMW is, compared to the USA. What they do is buy cars that have a couple of thousand miles on them and are ~6 months old. This makes them "second hand" and not new so they fall under different legislation. The cars are shipped inside containers on ships and even after all taxes are paid they still cost much less than the same car (similar mileage and age) bought from here. The only problem these companies face is legalizing the cars in Europe - e.g. blinkers here must be yellow. However, this is also relatively easy to fix by buying the needed parts here and installing them on the cars before registration.

The car manufacturers need to understand that we live in a global economy and what they experience now is something that film distributors already went through more than 10 years ago with DVD region codes. If its profitable to ship something from another part of the world where it is legally bought then people are going to do it.

<comment><USER6> That doesn't make any sense. BMW and MB are much cheaper in Germany than the US, if you exclude VAT. I know this because some friends stationed near Bitburger bought 2 5-series, had them prepped with NTSB bumpers and lights. Then shipped them, on the Air Force's dime, to the US. 2 years later, they sold them for more than they paid. Duty was 1.5%, sales tax was 4.5%

Unless the cars were built in the US, like the X5, there is no logical way to make it less expensive to re-import into the EU.

Car manufacturers are way ahead of film distributors in the global economy. Outside of luxury cars, most are manufactured in the country they are destined for. Or they setup a bilateral trade agreement (like Mazda and Ford) where carA is made in CountryA, carB is made in CountryB and both cars are sold in both markets.

> If its profitable to ship something from another part of the world where it > is legally bought then people are going to do it.

You've never had your cargo held up in customs I assume. Airports don't count.

<comment><USER7> Well, BMW/MB might be cheaper in Europe if you get cheaper models and trim levels that aren't available in the US.

As for being cost effective enough to overcome 30% depreciation in two years, frankly it sounds like a bit of a tall tale and I'd like to hear the specifics.

<comment><USER6> No, euro models have even better trim.

I just checked the BMW site, 535i starts at 57000euros TTC, and $60000 without sales tax; Germany and US, respectively. Remove 20% VAT and its 45000 euros ($60000). Take it to a location where almost new, luxury cars with low mileage are a rare breed (like an airbase in North Dakota, Alaska, etc.) and 30% depreciation isn't a factor.

If there is any tall tale reselling a car back in its export market is one. Containers cost money, shipping a car costs a lot of money, duties and taxes costs lots of money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I really don't have any expertise on these things but it sounds to me like there are some funky facts missing from this article.

 _" Once in China, the cars, which typically retail for $55,000 to $75,000 in the United States, can be resold for as much as three times those prices."_

That doesn't add up, not without some more explaining. Maybe there are import quotas that these guys are using up & limiting the manufacturers ability to import into China. The auto industries tend to have the most thorough history of trade "regulation" and there are complicated vestiges of old import/export policies, WTO penalties & such. It can be hairy.

I get that this is the NYTimes _blog_ , but this is where a journalist (or blogger, why not?) should be contacting neutral knowledgeable people. An economist and/or lawyer familiar with the auto industry trade stuff. Where's the meat?!

<comment><USER9> My understanding from reading about the issue of car prices in China earlier when the Tesla story about its China price came up ([http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/fair- price](http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/fair-price)) was that luxury car manufacturers have managed to create a market in china where they can sell their cars at largely marked up prices (relative to U.S. for instance) and profit from most of that price increase.

These luxury cars being by definition a luxury good, fall into they type of luxury good known as a Veblen good, in which the exclusivity associated with the high price is part of what makes these cars desirable. While this is seen in most markets for these cars, apparently early auto manufacturers selling luxury cars in China decided to go for a higher price point in China than in other markets. This created a market where new manufacturers who entered would be forced to choose between selling their luxury cars at lower prices (relative to the established luxury cars) therefore less exclusive and less desirable (sometimes even considered of lower quality) or selling them at similar mark ups and making extra money.

<comment><USER8> As I said, I'm no expert. But, I doubt these price discrepancies can be fully explained in this way. Rolls Royces (a common example) is a common example, but these are pretty supply limited being hand built cars. A unique situation. I can't imagine that manufacturers genuinely get away with a >50% profit margin. It also doesn't explain why export is being limited (presumably from other countries, not just the US).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't understand this.

Why would the manufactures not just directly send those cars over to china and sell them?

Why is it illegal to export them other than undercutting prices of a dealer in China (but that would be dealt with by restrictions on import)?

That Americans would be deprived of owning such cars because there was a shortage is a load of crap. Car manufactures are in the business to make money that's it.

Also why are we wasting tax payer money on this?

<comment><USER11> Nothing to understand here legally as it's simply a money-grab by automakers who are quite obviously lobbying the feds to crack down on a business that is eating into their profits.

And you're right, not a single person in the US is having a hard time finding or buying a Mercedes, Land Rover or any other luxury automobile. I can't believe there are government officials wasting time pursuing this so called _crime_.

This is lobbying to protect business interests at it's purest.

Edit: I just realized my comment was basically re-stating/agreeing with yours without adding too much to the conversation and for that I apologize. I think your observation was spot on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> What happened to first sale doctrine?

That student who was charged for reselling books he bought overseas was eventually vindicated: [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai- student-prot...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student- protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/)

<comment><USER13> The textbook case was about first sale doctrine, which is a copyright concept. This is about import/export restrictions. You do not, in general, have a right to ship whatever you want in and out of the country. Once something crosses the U.S. border, it becomes the subject of U.S. customs and trade regulations. It's very different than buying something within the U.S. and reselling it within the U.S., or validly importing something from abroad and reselling within the U.S.

I happen to think these particular regulations are stupid, but I also don't know the rationale behind them. They could very well be something we conceded to Germany (we won't let people reexport cars imported into the U.S. from Germany) in return for them conceding something else in a trade agreement. It's easy to blame "lobbying by industry <X>" for anything and everything, but think about it: what the hell do we care about profits that wind up in Germany anyway? Germany is the government with the strong interest in BMW/Mercedes/Audi's profits, not the U.S.

<comment><USER12> Thanks for clarifying.

So, when tourists enter the US, do they need permission to leave with souvenirs?

I was (falsely?) under the impression that once you purchased something you were able to do with it what you please. So the manufacturer of an item wouldn't be able to stop you from reselling it, domestically or otherwise.

<comment><USER14> _So, when tourists enter the US, do they need permission to leave with souvenirs?_

It depends on the export restrictions. A couple of decades ago, if your "souvenir" was a device capable of encrypting data with a key larger than a few dozen bits, yes, you would need permission to leave with it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is either the result of bored prosecutors or outright corruption. Either way, these prosecutors need to find a new line of work. They are using US taxpayer resources to protect price discrepancies for foreign auto manufacturers in foreign countries. I have seen rather transparent attempts to use our laws to enforce the will of large corporations before (SOPA etc) but this seems to take it to new extremes.

Car manufacturers cannot impose restrictions on what we do with cars once we own them. We purchase them - there is no car license agreement. It is not fraud to buy a car and then choose to sell it a few days later, and we have no legal obligation to tell the dealer what we plan to do with the car. I cannot imagine that the government would actually prevail at trial on any of these cases. They may get a few intimidation-based guilty pleas, but I don't see these cases having a ton of legal merit.

</comment><comment><USER16> This is stupid. I had my car imported to Poland from the US, and paid at least $20,000 less than I would here for a brand new Land Rover Discovery 3 V8. That's including all taxes,import duties and legalization for European roads. If Land Rover wants to sell more cars outside the US, then they should offer similar prices - I find car companies trying to control the market through the government to be disgusting.

<comment><USER17> What kind of mpg or kmpg do you get with that thing?

<comment><USER16> roughly 17-20l per 100km so 11.7MPG(US gallons).

<comment><USER18> Wow. And I thought my Tundra with a 5.7 V8 had bad mileage (15 city/18 highway).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If they really want to stop this, they should double the US price of the cars, and compensate the price hike with a mail-in rebate. This is how it seems to work with electronics: many newegg deals posted on slickdeals involve small mail-in rebates, which I presume are there to prevent the retailer from selling them abroad in bulk.

That said, I don't believe the car companies have a right to separate markets in this way. It's much simpler with services (e.g. child vs. adult cinema tickets), but if you're really selling goods you shouldn't expect to be able to maintain such large price discrimination, and certainly shouldn't expect government support for it.

</comment><comment><USER20> Lol this is the market correcting itself and what do the Americans do when they see this happening? They make it illegal.

Typical American double standard the market will take care of itself but we won't allow it to correct itself it it's not in America.

Unsurprisingly this bares a remarking similarity to the problem copyright holders of movies, books and the like are complaining about when they make it more expensive or inaccessible in certain countries only in their case it just gets pirated and they get none of the money.

<comment><USER21> American's are not making it illegal, they are on both sides of this issue. Some are buying up the vehicles and exporting them, others are attempting to corrupt the right of personal property by prosecuting them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think the real news here is we are selling something to China for a change, which I have never heard of.

Half the parts in those cars or at least their raw materials probably came from China.

<comment><USER23> [http://www.census.gov/foreign- trade/balance/c5700.html](http://www.census.gov/foreign- trade/balance/c5700.html)

Billions of dollars of exports to China, month after month after month after month.

<comment><USER22> I was going to guess that most of that is food and fuel, heavily subsidized industries in the USA (ie. indirect taxpayer assistance to China).

This article claims there is more:

[http://www.ibtimes.com/us-exports-china-have- grown-294-over-...](http://www.ibtimes.com/us-exports-china-have- grown-294-over-past-decade-1338693)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This is what our civil courts are for -- not our criminal courts, which send people to prisons with gulag conditions.

Typical big business/big government regulatory capture.

</comment><comment><USER25> this is similar to the case brought in the UK against CDWOW [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6471863.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6471863.stm)

Isn't free trade and globalisation great (as long as you're a multi-billion dollar corporation)

</comment><comment><USER21> I find this an extremely chilling story. It speaks to the erosion of personal property rights in the US. It is horrible to see the complicity of the US in the outright rent seeking on the part of foreign auto manufacturers is stunning.

One telling statement is the articles is made by US prosecutor for the case. He remarks that his persecution of this business is justified because its practitioners are simply out to make a quick buck. However where in the law is it the goal of the government to determine the economic value of the distribution of luxury goods on the international market? Why is it even a question anyone in the federal government is considering?

</comment><comment><USER26> What part of this is 'illegal', exactly? Is it a violation of the export law, or what? Or is it just that you get to say what the law is in the US if you have enough money?

</comment><comment><USER27> Soon enough you will not own the car you buy, but just a license to use it in limited ways.

<comment><USER14> This already exists: It's called a lease and it's how about a quarter of American cars are 'sold'.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> > ... auto manufacturers like Mercedes-Benz and BMW, which try to keep tight > control over sales to domestic dealers and to foreign countries.

The Law of One Price strikes again!

</comment><comment><USER29> Isn't this sort of protectionism that caused GM to slack and become non- competitive over the long haul, the first time around, too? Why repeat the mistake?

</comment><comment><USER30> Excellent use of my taxes.</comment>


In High-Tech Japan, the Fax Machines Roll On (2013) - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/world/asia/in-japan-the-fax-machine-is-anything-but-a-relic.html?pagewanted=all <comment><USER2> > Experts say government offices prefer faxes because they generate paperwork > onto which bureaucrats can affix their stamps of approval, called hanko.

This is likely a much more key point to the article than it lets on. In much of Japan's society, the physical personalized stamp is used in the same way the West uses signatures, and not just within the bureaucracy.

More information: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqeuM3vo3GU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqeuM3vo3GU)

<comment><USER3> Same in Germany. Letters sent by fax legally count as "written" correspondence while email does not. I am 23 and I can remember times, when I (theoretically) had to cryptographically sign a PDF to send even an invoice by email.

In private homes fax machines are the exception but in businesses of every size, they are still pretty common.

Our chancellor famously said in 2013 "The internet is new land for all of us." [0]

We keep inventing technologies like De-Mail [1] or the chip on our ID card [2] to authenticates you online - if you could only find a services that implements the protocol and you would have the required card reader. I guess most of this audience would not even understand the need for an offline ID card …

Focus on security is a good thing - especially when I read stories about how criminals claim refunds from other people's IRS accounts in the US, but email is in no way easier hackable for the average person than postal letters are. And postal addresses will not give you unique identification either.

I also love when I ask the German version of the IRS a quick question by email and get the answer back by postal letter with my email printed and attached to it. Gives me the warm feeling, that you can count on some things to stay the same. :D

[0]: [http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/neuland](http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/neuland)

[1]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Mail](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De- Mail)

[2]: [http://www.personalausweisportal.de/EN/Citizens/Electronic-I...](http://www.personalausweisportal.de/EN/Citizens/Electronic- Identification/Electronic-Identification_node.html)

<comment><USER4> I'm a bit surprised that you don't seem to have an equivalent of the Handysignatur [0] (eID based on mobile phone) we have in Austria. It's getting more and more popular here, I guess because all you need is a mobile phone (who has a card reader after all?).

I find it incredibly convenient as it gives you immediate access to a growing list of e-government services [1], as well as signing PDFs and even things like a service for cancelling subscriptions online [2].

[0]: [https://www.handy- signatur.at/hs2/home.aspx?language=en](https://www.handy- signatur.at/hs2/home.aspx?language=en)

[1]: [https://www.handy- signatur.at/hs2/?site=infos/applications](https://www.handy- signatur.at/hs2/?site=infos/applications)

[2]: [http://www.online-kuendigen.at/](http://www.online-kuendigen.at/)

<comment><USER3> Correct me if I am wrong, but these services seem to be designed by the private sector for people to use, while the government implements it, where it makes sense. Meanwhile in Germany these services are designed by the government and implemented by the private sector and are therefore hopelessly outdated and bureaucratic.

Handy-signatur.at seems very convenient. You know, something must be wrong, when even Austria is moving faster than you ;-) I guess our most realistic bet to get something like this to work here is to count on the European Integration and wait for other systems to take over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My feeling is that high tech Japan is a myth of the past, that never truly realized itself. Part of the myth probably originated from the futuristic anime that it produced in the 80s and 90s.

If you look at Japan today, there is quite a bit of pretense of high-tech that I suspect to be nothing but pseudo-science and marketing crap to drive consumerism (Phiten for its "health" accessories, and a bunch of well-known brands like Panasonic jumping on the alkaline water bandwagon).

<comment><USER6> I don't think it was a myth based on anime or otherwise. Japan did seem genuinely high-tech when I first arrived here 20 years ago. Talking elevators and high-tech toilets. Consumer electronics that were at least two years ahead of what was available in the US. Car navigation and mobile phones were way more advanced than in other countries at the time.

<comment><USER7> The great question is: why did this stop?

<comment><USER6> Two trends come to mind: 1) Japan has been mired in an economic malaise for nealy 20 years, and 2) much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator.

<comment><USER8>
        much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware
        to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator.

This one. East Asia badly lacks in software.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Representative anecdote of the day: Shibuya ward in Tokyo became the first city in Japan to approve registered civil (same-sex) partnerships last week. They received over 1,000 complaints from all around the country... most of them by fax.

[http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20150331-00000535-san- soci](http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20150331-00000535-san-soci) (sorry, Japanese only)

</comment><comment><USER10> I think every society has their own style of 'fixation', like in US, you can pay with a 'signed check' at a coffee shop, even if it's a 3.5$ bill.

Then the shop owner collects those checks and go to the bank on the next day, I am not sure what happens if a check gets dishonoured though.

<comment><USER11> Nobody pays at a cafe with checks anymore, and I expect most cafes won't actually accept them.

We use paper checks to pay things like rent and the gas bill, or for person- to-person payments, because the banks refuse to provide a better system for that kind of payment. ACH exists but it's very difficult to use: it involves filling out forms and signing wavers.

<comment><USER12> [https://www.clearxchange.com/payments/](https://www.clearxchange.com/payments/)

[https://www.bankofamerica.com/onlinebanking/education/how- to...](https://www.bankofamerica.com/onlinebanking/education/how-to-send- money-online.go)

[https://www.wellsfargo.com/online- banking/transfers/surepay/](https://www.wellsfargo.com/online- banking/transfers/surepay/)

[https://www.chase.com/online-banking/quickpay](https://www.chase.com/online- banking/quickpay)

<comment><USER13> Most of these gracefully (?) degrade to sending a paper cheque in the mail, if the recipient isn't a party to their payment system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> "There is still something in Japanese culture that demands the warm, personal feelings that you get with a handwritten fax," said Mr. Sugahara, 43. A quote from the article. Never in my life have I imagined nostalgia power of the fax machine.

</comment><comment><USER15> Previously: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5232823](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5232823)

</comment><comment><USER16> (2013)

<comment><USER17> Thanks, added.</comment></comment>


New website dutchstartupjobs.com helps startups find talent - <AUTHOR> http://startupjuncture.com/2013/05/15/new-website-dutchstartupjobs-com-helps-startups-find-talent/

<comment><USER2> There's a reason why the vast majority of "jobs" on this site are either for interns or co-founders (with the "co" part being actually making stuff).

There's no money in Dutch startups, very little investment.

So with some very rare exceptions, most startups pay way less than traditional IT, and you can shout all you want about only wanting young an hungry talent willing to work for equity (also quite relative, very few Dutch startups flip or go IPO), this is seriously hampering their potential for attracting talent.

Especially in a country that may be less risk-averse than most European countries, but still way more than the US.

<comment><USER3> Indeed. It seems like the smaller the company here, the lower the pay, as simple as that. That's what I've experienced so far. I'd love to work for an innovative Dutch startup but so far I end up working for larger and larger companies, because I just can't afford to take the kind of rates or salary smaller companies offer.

<comment><USER2> And it's stupid too, because they pretty much get what they pay for. Peanuts, monkeys and such.

So small companies that could afford decent salaries have 3 underpaid devs and some interns doing the work one good developer can do for half the money. And do a better job too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> One of the big mistakes startups here in the Netherlands (and the rest of europe)make is that the try to copy the Silicon Valley eco system, which will not work here. For a hole lot of reasons like history, culturel difference, political system etc.

For instance, one mistake a lot of startups make is offering Dutch people shares while their productivity wont be higher. Giving them a higher salary or more freedom on where and when they work motivates them much more and is often enough reason to leave a big boring corp.

It's true that there is less money here then in SV but it doesn't mean there are no jobs. But most of these job postings won't be on a site like the above. I even think the problem here is more on the supply side and not demand. I can name a few startups that are looking for talent right now, including us, willing to pay a great salary but simple can't find the right talent. Take a look at the type of open positions, cto, technical co founder, developer intern etc. I think that's the biggest problem we have to solve here first...

</comment><comment><USER5> While I welcome the idea, I do find it strange that they just focus on Dutch startups, when if you have the right to work in the EU you can work anywhere. Another one that I came across this week, out of Scotland, is <http://www.upstartjobs.com/>

<comment><USER6> It's often really smart to niche. It's easy to position yourself as _the_ job board for Dutch startups.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Amazed that Booking.com isn't on that site yet, the amount of recruiters that approach me on LinkedIn asking if I'm interested working there is shocking. I've had about 4 requests the past month I think for them alone..

<comment><USER2> Booking.com is the reason why the rest of us have such a hard time finding people...

OTOH, they're very generous in their relocation support and most expats get tired of the job before they get tired of Amsterdam, so they do help to fill the pool for the rest of us.

<comment><USER8> Mind telling if the salary is ok with them?

Having lived in NL before, I would fancy coming back, but salaries/taxes make it prohibiting to move back at my current lifestyle. Is booking offering above market pay?

<comment><USER2> I have no idea, but given they effort they put into bringing people in from outside NL I doubt they skimp on salary. The don't have a rep for being cheapskates in general.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Another (Wordpress) website failing horribly under load after receiving the attention they so desperately desired.

And the failure just dumps the MySQL error on the front page.

Not terribly inspiring.

</comment><comment><USER10> Bookmarked for when the error is resolved.

Some IT jobs posted in other places just omit the location, assuming everyone lives in SF. Really looking forward to find out what's going on in my homeland.

Cached version: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dutchstartupjobs.com%2F&aq=f&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.dutchstartupjobs.com%2F&aqs=chrome.0.57j58.2732j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

<comment><USER11> It's rather focused on the Randstad.

<comment><USER12> Presumable because that's where the jobs are... (it's a barren wasteland on the startup front here in the south)

<comment><USER13> It's telling how little tech startup activity there is around Eindhoven, despite the massive amount of PR going out that this is going to be the country/continent's next silicon valley.

<comment><USER14> AFAIK there's quite some startup activity going on, but only a handful of 'traditional' internet startups. (including my <http://betali.st/>)

<comment><USER13> Hmm yeah, true - there's heavy machinery startups like SoLayTec, is that the kind of stuff you mean?

Btw, I hadn't heard of betalist, and that's now officially the only 'traditional' internet startup in this area that I know of. Any more?

<comment><USER14> I'm not really familiar with the specifics of what's going on at the high tech campus, but I know there's a lot of stuff happening there.

Some other startups based in Eindhoven:

\- <http://www.filedropme.com/>

\- <http://www.redefinestudio.nl/>

\- <https://www.jibr.com/>

\- <http://www.studyportals.eu/>

\- <http://www.izooble.com/>

And of course Shapeways[1] which recently raised $30M from Andreessen Horowitz amongst others [2]. Although their HQ is now in NYC they started out in Eindhoven and still have an office here. Their BV is also still located in Eindhoven.

[1] <http://shapeways.com/>

[2] [http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases-test/shapeways- annou...](http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases-test/shapeways- announces-30m-round-led-by-andreessen-horowitz-204268491.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> My personal opinion it can be improved to be easier to skim through for job descriptions. There is too much information on the page, the number of jobs per page is small and it looks like there is no focus on jobs itself. I find this website <http://www.workinstartups.com/> for the startup jobs in the UK way easier to use for job search.

</comment><comment><USER16> Very good initiative not just to help find people, but also to improve the visibility of startups in the wider economy. Do similar job boards exist in other countries?

<comment><USER8> There is one for Berlin: <http://berlinstartupjobs.com>

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, seems to work pretty well there. Hope the Dutch version will be as successful!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Ugh. When I read this on my smartphone that social media share thing on the left was placed all over the content. Couldn't read a thing. So freaking annoying.

</comment><comment><USER18> We post about startup jobs in Stockholm regularly here (<http://swedishstartuspace.com>)

<comment><USER19> Broken link, typo I guess. It should be <http://www.swedishstartupspace.com/>.

I'm so sick of the usage of the word "space" in the startup space, it's not even funny when I try.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I always wonder why prominent startup boards don't just clone their site and make one for every country in the world.

</comment><comment><USER21> well it's 2 weeks old and an MVP so time is needed.

</comment><comment><USER22> the site is giving me a mysql error :(</comment>


New CC0 Stock Photo Website - <AUTHOR> http://alana.io <comment><USER2> "New CC0 Stock Photo Website" with a member login and a /shopping cart/? And you want my email address before I download a photo?

How about "New Stock Photo Website using CC0 photos to gain an audience, impending expansion into the pay-for-stock-photos market"

Try these real sites that won't try to take your money: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) [http://unsplash.com/](http://unsplash.com/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi,

Sorry for confusion; we ask for emails because we send you a copy to that email address. But you are correct; in the near future there will be a box that lets people either download immediately or have it sent to email instead.

All images are currently free and the plan is for it to remain so. Regarding the cart, that's a good point: its a hint on the additional features we have planned for the future, some of which may require a small payment.

<comment><USER3> Why would you send an email with the photo?

At best that's unnecessary and at worst that's shady.

By failing to deny the suspicions about payments and emails, you've only served to confirm them.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. The reason the email box is there is we built this on Wordpress using Easy digital download and the plugin to offer the free download is built with the email box. We hear you that it is more inconvenient and will work on putting a pop up box that offers the choice for a free instant download or send to email.

The site is very much a work in progress...in the meantime if you don't feel comfortable putting your email in, perhaps you can wait for us to fix this and come back at a later date. thanks again!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> A lot of photos from unsplash, is this just an aggregator?

</comment><comment><USER5> First thoughts in my head after seeing the title: "What's CC0? Some C compiler? Why 0? Why are there stock photos of it"...

<comment><AUTHOR> cc0 = creative common 0 which means its part of public domain. Here's an explanation: [https://creativecommons.org/about/cc0](https://creativecommons.org/about/cc0)

<comment><USER6> tldr; it is free to use for personal and commercial use without attribution (per my understanding)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This looks neat but the loading time needs improvement.

<comment><AUTHOR> and I just wrote post about speed. How embarrassing....[http://alana.io/speed- speed-and-more-speed/](http://alana.io/speed-speed-and-more-speed/)</comment></comment>


LulzSec: 50 Days of Lulz statement - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.com/1znEGmHa

<comment><USER3> Considering they'd even earlier today advertised a Monday booty release, I suspect that, rather than abandoning the Lulzsec facade after 50 days, it's that the fuzz is a little too hot on their trail for comfort.

<comment><USER4> I'd have to agree. Even now I think that with time they will all be outed - <USER2> they've not already. Some of these 'raids' have just been too daring to expect to get away with forever.

<comment><USER5> Really though, if all of your traffic is going through TOR to a vpn in eastern europe, the chances of being tracked down are slim to nil. Sure, there are _theoretical_ weaknesses in TOR, but you'd need to control quite a few exit nodes to even begin to have a chance of pinpointing the endpoints. Combine that with a compromised wifi as a last resort (which you erase the logs of regularly), and you're pretty damned safe. All of the people who were arrested for hacking the CIA or DoD were caught many years ago, when anonymization tools weren't nearly so well developed, and the need for anonymization wasn't so clearly recognized. I'd like to see a modern story of the authorities finding someone who was hidden by TOR + vpn. I just don't see it happening any time soon.

<comment><USER6> How do they use Tor for such large projects? I tried using that thing like 5-6 yrs ago and it was slower than 56k...

<comment><USER7> What do you mean by large projects? The size of the files they transfer?

Your machine -> TOR -> hacked home user or server -> your target.

This way you only transfer the files between the target and the hacked server, and from there on to a torrent, and heck, why not let that machine seed it too.

Chances are that they even used a chain of hacked machines to get to their target. It gets pretty complicated pretty quickly if you (as in FBI et al) have to raid several companies to get your hands on machines to do forensics on.

I doubt these files (or much of anything else) ever touched the criminal's physical machine. Unless, of course, they fucked up by, say, posting to pastebin or a tweet or something else that is seemingly insignificant (at the time) using their own IP.

Most tend to.

<comment><USER5> This mirrors an idea that I had. TOR is a military project, and you know at least some of the exit nodes are controlled by the US gov't. Why not replicate TOR with a botnet? Bounce your communications around a plethora of average joes and you have yourself a more stable tor. If you spread the botnet without a CnC server and have the infected machines bounce random traffic around, it would be damned difficult to break. TOR is open source, so it shouldn't be too hard to modify it to work on a private network. The nice thing about it is that if you attract to much heat you can always ditch the network and start a new one.

<comment><USER8> > you know at least some of the exit nodes are controlled by the US gov't

[http://www.google.com/search?q=high+traffic+colluding+tor+ro...](http://www.google.com/search?q=high+traffic+colluding+tor+routers)

<comment><USER5> [http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/17/report_hightraffic_c.ht...](http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/17/report_hightraffic_c.html)

<comment><USER8> Oh, neat. I didn't realise the issue had been resolved. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Damn, the AT&T-release is especially juicy. It contains a lot of highly confidential information about technology and strategy that their competitors would love to get their hands on.

I'm a quite technical guy and I barely understand a thing. No wonders AT&T are having troubles with fixing their network troubles, it looks like a massive, massive beast of technology.

I found the frequency chart fascinating. It's available publicly here: <http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf>

<comment><USER10> Given the juiciness of this, I'm surprised that more companies don't have corp espionage groups to carry out little lulsec attacks.

<comment><USER11> Because if they ever got caught the company would be sued out of existence (probably bought by competitors at that point). They have too much to lose in most cases.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> What about analyzing their writing? They release quite a bit of text...somebody likes to write. Considering there are efforts to identify people by typing patterns, I wonder if this is how they'll get caught: [http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final8Chairunn...](http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final8Chairunnanda.pdf)

<comment><USER13> Unfortunately given the scope of that paper, it doesn't sound like typing patterns can be used just yet. A sample size of 36 participants doesn't handle the scale involved when going against 'The Internet'.

Also, the paper collected timestamps of each keystroke, something that'd need to done on suspects; however, if they are already suspecting you, they probably have other ways to identify you.

Finally, how in the world does a paper like this get away with having 'nowadays' in it? I know its a legit word, but, just seems awkward.

<comment><USER14> Was it written by an ESL speaker? Sometimes non-English speakers feel insecure starting a point without "However", "Because of this", and other conjunctions. If you don't need a conjunctions, you can say "Nowadays", but you don't need it. It's like the "auto" keyword in C. Because ESL speakers cram a lot of grammar into a few years, rather than spending years making simple sentences, they often use advanced patterns when simpler ones would suffice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> NATO press release about the break in to their ebookstore by LulzSec:

[http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-40BE0A99-F4F5EB32/natolive/ne...](http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-40BE0A99-F4F5EB32/natolive/news_75729.htm)

<comment><USER16> NATO has an ebook store? What are the hell?

<comment><USER17> That's also what strikes me in this story. Anyone can explain this?

<comment><USER16> After thinking about it for a few moments, I would guess that they largely sell books and research papers and suchlike on subjects that are of interest to those in member militaries, but aren't of sufficient general interest to make it to Amazon or otherwise.

 _EDIT_ : or, I could've spent a single moment to read the contents of the aforementioned link.

<comment><USER17> My question was badly phrased. I'm not that surprised that there are books/documents produced by NATO. I'm surprised they sell them. I think everything (public) produced by NATO should be freely accessible to everyone. This was so obvious to me that I'm surprised it's not the case, another little reminder of the world we live in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The torrent appears to contain hacked personal data from:

* EA (Battlefield Heroes) * Hackforums.net * Nato-bookshop.org * Misc other forums

The first of these purports to be 200K+ users.

<comment><USER19> The Battlefield Heroes passwords are unsalted MD5. Way to go EA.

<comment><USER20> Hm, are you sure? I have a couple accounts there (and they are appearing in the dump) and they are not simply md5(password). Of course they were long, random passwords and I don't play this game anymore, but I'm curious. Where did you read that?

<comment><USER19> I didn't read it anywhere. I downloaded the database and checked all my friends against a known password database. They're plain md5(password).

<comment><USER20> Then the dump must be old. I have changed my password months ago and the hash does not match my current password.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It seems that there are better people out there that got angrier

[http://www.gamemarshal.com/features/20110622113313/lulzsec-h...](http://www.gamemarshal.com/features/20110622113313/lulzsec- hacked-by-rival-hackers.html)

</comment><comment><USER22> Quitting or rebranding is the question I find myself asking.

<comment><USER23> Like a wave they will again become sea, only to rise later as a different wave.

Or to put my high school poetics into plain English:

They will want to blend in with the Anonymous masses, until they deem it safe to once again to craft new identities for themselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Odds that one of the crew is commenting on this thread?

</comment><comment><USER25> Looks like they were a getting a bit anxious that they were going to be outed, which will ultimately still happen anyway. Regardless, it was a fun reading their Pastebins and Twitter feeds every few days making a mockery of multiple corporations information security.

</comment><comment><USER26> How is it possible to register a .com domain in an anonymous way?

<comment><USER27> prepaid visa or just get someone who doesn't know you very well to do it

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Yup, fuzz on their tails..

Not too smart either why include the number of Lulzsec members?

<comment><USER29> 1.) What useful information does "there are six of them" convey?

2.) What makes you think that they're not lying?

<comment><USER5> 1.) What information does the number of columns in a MySQL database convey? It's not just that there are six of them, but that records could be poured over for various irc servers in an attempt to link the 6 accounts that interacted with eachother the most. It allows for deeper inspection, and perhaps more information. However,

2.) They almost certainly are. I could see them saying how many people they actually had almost as a bluff, but more than likely they're just throwing out misinformation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I was trying to search web cache on who used the words lulz and security together before Lulzsec ... and then this final release :|

</comment><comment><USER31> Who is LulzSec?

<comment><USER5> I was going to say something snarky, but I checked your comment history and it seems you are on here seldom enough to explain an honest lack of knowledge about them. Basically, LulzSec is a hacking group that has been attacking _many_ targets _very_ publicly over the past 2 months. They've been all over HN, /., reddit, etc. They've even earned some mentions in the MSM.

Basically, they're notable for a) the number of targets they've hit, b) how brazen they are about it (hitting the FBI, CIA, and other law enforcement agencies), and c) how vigorously they court publicity (270k followers on Twitter).

<comment><USER31> I was being sarcastic :-)

<comment><USER5> And here I was, sparing you my snark. You've made me re-evaluate humanity, sir, and I'm not impressed with the results.

<comment><USER32> I appreciated your brief synopsis. I only know a little bit about LulzSec, and the added information helped. So your efforts were not entirely lost...

<comment><USER5> I appreciate your appreciation. If you want to learn more, the wikipedia article on them [1] is pretty decent.

[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lulzsec></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>