Why Apple Eventually Lost Me and I'm Switching Back to Windows - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/mark-dalton-photography/why-apple-has-eventually-lost-me-and-im-switching-back-to-windows-17ed90e760f2 <comment><USER3> Just another run off the mill "I'm not getting another mac" complaint article.

1) Introduce myself by explaining how emotionally attached I was to the first Macs I bought

2) Complain about price

3) Complain about price some more

4) Did I mention price?

5) Windows has caught up to MacOS (which assumes Mac was ever ahead of Windows to begin with)

6) I'm an "x", and I do "y". I can do "y" just as well on Windows

7) Since I can "y" on Windows, let me bring up again how Macs are expensive and how I shouldn't have to drop that kinda of money for one

<comment><USER4> Concerning the price I don't think it is a strong argument. I have never been a mac user, but I have friends who had quite old macs that were still performant enough after 8 years for running recent software. They paid more, but it lasted more.

Also for me spending time on a computer _is_ my job, so I don't mind spending some money on this for having good and professional material. I just bought a Dell Precision 5520 — 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM extendable to 32GB, UHD touchscreen, 8-10h battery lifetime, professional series, linux-compatiable [http://dell.com/developer](http://dell.com/developer) — that cost me at least as much as the equivalent by Apple I guess. But with such laptop I can be productive and I'm probably fine for years to come. It is worth investing in your professional tools IMHO.

<comment><USER5> >but I have friends who had quite old macs that were still performant enough after 8 years for running recent software. They paid more, but it lasted more.

The article is about building a desktop, I do not see how building a desktop with latest components and maybe getting double RAM and HDD with the same money you pay for a Mac will last less then the Mac.

Sure buying the cheapest laptop will last less then buying an expensive laptop.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've done it since this summer, going from a 2012 rMBP to a near-maxed out Thinkpad 480s (1 TB SSD, 24GB RAM for USD 2300? hell yeah..).

Let me tell you though that as a mac user going to windows 10 you give up much more than a bit of polish - it's really cutting into your productivity. Just one tiny (but anger inducing) example: You can have either Windows Defender _or_ a hangup-free Windows Explorer, but not both (and I'm talking hangups that sometimes can leave you waiting for minutes until you see your files).

To sum it all up, Windows is (a) way way less responsive to UI inputs and (b) way way less consistent how to get things done, but you _can_ certainly get things done. (a) means a constant but small tax on productivity, (b) means that you waste a lot of time initially until you've figured out all the edge cases.

Whether or not this all justifies the Apple tax, everyone (or their organisation) has to decide, but let me just give this warning as a power user / software dev who did the transition.

<comment><USER7> If you're willing to put up with inconsistency and a time-wasting learning curve, value responsiveness, and have no attachment to Windows software (which seems likely if you're coming from a Mac) - why not Linux?

<comment><USER6> fear of driver issues. I've kept mental tabs on how many people

(a) tell me that everything went smooth but on further inquiries admit that there were actually a number of issues, some of them unresolved

(b) admit (and complain about) issues outright

(c) _actually_ have had everything going smooth

For laptops I've yet to talk to someone in category (c).

<comment><USER8> I've been a Linux user for about 10 years. The only hardware I've had trouble with after setting up dozens of machines for myself and friends has been Wifi devices from RTLink. They were solvable, but requires an actual recompile of drivers after kernel updates.

I've had a couple of experiences in the other direction though, including a Sony Viao laptop where neither the wired or wireless network worked after Window 7 install. With Linux (Kubuntu), everything worked flawlessly. This was not some strange one-off laptop manufacturer.

The other thing won't matter to many, but the install time for Windows was almost three hours, while Linux (and all it's accompanying office software, etc) took about 20 minutes. Updates are similar though, so there is some value there.

Just a few more data points, but I, and many others find that Linux is far easier to use than Windows these days as well.

<comment><USER9> Same here:

For the last 10 years mainstream linux distros has been less hassle than hunting down Windows drivers, removing bundled bloatware etc.

Mac was awesome in this regard, but after I still struggled with alt-tab after 3 years I have up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've been on a linux desktop for several years now. I use a VM for any windows dev I have to do. I should have made the switch sooner. Consider that instead of windows.

<comment><USER11> I'm using Linux on desktop for more then 10 years now. I guess the main reason is that after a few years you just can't leave it - due to the IKEA effect ;) (same with using Emacs) And even if the desktop situation gets worse (so you have to fix something) you just bond more: Catch-22...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect)

<comment><USER12> Huh, I didn't realize that was a thing.

My wife and I continue to buy unassembled products because:

\- price \- we like assembling stuff \- our sedan is enough to buy furniture \- cheaper, unassembled furniture presents less commitment

We've replaced Ikea furniture without any attachment issues that I can detect other than the sunk cost fallacy, but that seems to be more prevalent in our more expensive purchases. I didn't realize that so many people because attached to Ikea stuff.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "Look at the iMac line in 2018 and the specs, tell me if the value is there."

Every time I see one of these posts complaining about the value of Apple machines I want to scream. They are _very_ competitively priced. (one could argue that is a matter of fact, by their success alone)

You can compare common "hard specs" about the processor, ram, video card-- and within that narrow field of vision I bet you _can_ find yourself a "better" PC for the price. But try putting a value on these things and see where that lands you:

\- (decent) Webcam \- High-End 5k display (for iMac, or comparable quality display on the laptops) \- High-end wireless keyboard/mouse or trackpad \- Decent speakers \- Metal construction in a (subjectively) attractive and minimalist package \- Well designed (e.g. folding, portable, detachable extension) power brick

These things more than seal the deal for me, and I am convinced there is no better value out there. Maybe for the photo/video editor one would _need_ to make concessions to afford the extra CPU/GPU/Memory in lieu of some other niceties.

<comment><USER14> I'm constantly met with "you can get a just as good PC for half the price", and when i ask them to prove it they usually come up short. They either find some inferior model, or a similarly specced model which ends up costing the same or more.

Apple also actively works to improve OS X performance on older hardware. They did with Snow Leopard, and they recently did with Mojave. What other operation systems does that ? for free ?

Their support is also seriously great. I have a 27" iMac from 2008 at home, and somewhere around 2012 a manufacturing problem was found in the Seagate drives they originally shipped with, so _4_ years later i could get my harddrive replaced for free. Name me any other hardware manufacturer that does that.

The attention to details with Mac builds are out of this world. Or at least it used to be (haven't bought new a mac in 4 years)

* Every MacBook can be opened with 1 hand. The counterbalance of the metal body vs the resistance of the hinges is matched. This goes for the 15" as well as the 11" Air.

* The sleep light is matched to the frequency of the breath of a sleeping human. Not particularly useful, just fun fact.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Louis Rossmann, a well known advocate for right-to-repair and a repair shop owner has a lot to say about Apple's build quality.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8)

His videos are a great rabbit hole to go down, if you are interested in laptop repair methods. He knows his stuff.

</comment><comment><USER14> I've never been a Windows user.

I mean I've used windows at work for close to 2 decades, and i still hate it every bit as much as the first time i started up Windows 3.1.

I've been using all sorts of operating systems, from OS/2 in the 90s, to BeOS 4 and 5 (on x86), and Linux (Gnome).

Finally i make the switch to Mac around 2005. I've been a Unix user since 1991 (First Linux was Yggdrasil Plug & Play Linux Fall '93). I wanted the beautiful and functional desktop experience of OS X, coupled with the Unix subsystem.

Later on i noticed that Mac applications (official and 3rd party) usually have a much more "finished" feeling to them. Even shareware (is that even a thing anymore ?) felt much more complete on OS X. Linux applications had the technical groundwork in place, but as soon as it became graphical, things started to fall apart.

And here we are, 13 years later, and i'm thinking about buying a ThinkPad instead as a replacement for my MacBook Pro 13" Retina. My wife recently got one from work, and I'd forgotten how great a decent keyboard is to type on. It's been a few years since i last had that on any laptop. Apple appears to be stuck in a loop where everything must become slimmer, functionality be damned.

On the software side OS X is still king. I know evil voices say that eventually OS X will devolve into a an advanced iOS clone, but for now it's very functional, and miles ahead of Gnome on Linux.

As for Windows 10... I'll pass. An operating system that pushes out "free" apps along with reporting everything back to Microsoft, and by default shares my WLAN password with "friends of friends", allowing me to opt out by renaming my WLAN. Whoever thought that was a great idea ?

</comment><comment><USER16> Personal opinion. I've never used MACs before and just two months ago I've been given a brand new 2018 MACBook pro to do work on. Long story short, after giving time to work out differences to Windows and XCFE, I still don't understand what people see in them other than looks:

\- It _crashed_ Virtualbox while a 200GB VM copied files close to max capacity (10 GB free on host). No RAM problems there

\- It stuttered the Settings window for close to 10 seconds while doing some sound configs

\- It does not like and does not show some "nonameish" USB2 flash drives

\- (My) Safari does not like me setting home page other than apple.com

\- The keyboard is crazy flat. I don't feel it at all, and can't touch type on it. There is no HOME or END buttons for command line editing. I've attached a UNICOMP for a change

\- Apple doesn't like non-LLVM compilers and I'm stuck with what homebrew provides.

\- Virtualbox with Linux has _unusable_ mouse/keyboard _after_ installing the drivers. Ubuntu 14 is the only one that works as it should.

\- It has only four USB-C and I have a bunch of converters to connect stuff like headphones, keyboard, mouse and eth adapter. Yes, they take up table space.

\- It is above Windows 10 in terms of interface, and looks nice and pleasant to touch (except keyboard)

<comment><USER16> Yes, the high DPI screen is very good!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I use MacOS and Windows at home. I want to switch to Windows exclusively just so I can have more control over the hardware but using my windows machine for the occasional gaming gives me enough reasons not to want to switch completely. No standout problems, it's death by a thousand cuts.

<comment><USER18> The incompatibility between the Windows and *nix filesystems is doing that to me. Running Vagrant or Docker based development on Windows turns quickly to nightmare, not because the tools are bad, but because mapping your dev directory to the vm side is non-trivial.

I've tried the linux subsystem, but the result was also disappointing. The one way I could see it working would be if I switched back from VS Code to vim, and use that inside the linux subsystem. Which means that a Microsoft product is keeping me on the Mac right now.

<comment><USER19> There is a Linux version of VS Code.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> > Over the years I upgraded to a MacBook Pro, then the MacBook Pro touchbar > and in the middle of that I bought a 27inch iMac.

Frankly, the sudden price sensitivity seems odd. Is there something else going on?

> With the work I do on photo/video editing and my love for flight > simulators...

Aye, there's the rub.

> Another reason to bail is the expense in repairs, particularly living in a > country where there is no official Apple store. Apple has these machines > made so that if something breaks you are basically fucked and the only > choice is to take it to get repaired.

Probably the strongest objective statement in the whole post. Until…

> If things break on the custom build I am working on then I can easily fix > without it costing me a fortune.

Except the total cost (price+time) of replacements in a custom build can go UP after just 2–4 years if you didn't buy into the latest spec for a given component, undercutting the value argument.

> Apple once catered to creatives and when I first used a Mac I was amazed by > the creative tool suite they had.

Additionally, the rest of that paragraph is, contextually, a strawman. ———- I've worked on both OSes for 20+ years (graphic design, photo editing, video editing, web development.) Microsoft has closed the gap. So, unfortunately, has Apple. But the view that Windows 10 has changed the game is myopic. Bottom line, the whole Mac vs. PC thing has been tired for well over a decade.

The way I think of it is _similar_ to the idea in photography that a great photographer doesn't require expensive equipment to produce great photographs.

Choose the best tools for your craft that you can afford and be deliberate in making the best possible use of them.

</comment><comment><USER21> \- Linux for all things technical - coding, sysadmin

\- Windows for the office: Mail, documents

\- OS X for a good, imperfect, compromise between the two.

Can't see this changing any time soon. Windows bash etc are an add-on.

Linux sure as hell is better than a Mac for geek stuff, but for simple things like email it completely sucks.

I've spent months recently using a Linux machine for non-work dev. I have tried every email client I could find. I am buying a MacBook Air as soon as apple announce.

I've been helping someone who works on Windows with tech issues. Not going near it.

<comment><USER22> If you are thinking about the MB Air, I would also consider a chromebook (like Google Pixelbook). Lately enabled Linux app support makes it best of both worlds.

<comment><USER21> Hadn't consider that, thank you! I will definitely take a look.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There are many reasons to chose Mac or Windows. I would expect an article about why someone switched to be more nuanced than price.

I mean price is a valid reason too, but not very insightful.

<comment><USER24> I used to balk at the Macbook price. Then I realized I spent nearly 10 hours a day on my laptop, that it was the source of my livelihood, and that I'd lost hours in frustration at the Windows experience.

Price makes sense as a complaint for most people, but for professionals whose job depends on their tools, I'd say it is worth it to splurge for a better experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> What's driving me away from the Mac ecosystem:

Loss of iOS sync from iTunes with no replacement. I used to sync two phones and two iPads through iTunes in order to reduce bandwidth use (Australian internet sucks). I can now use Internet Sharing options, maybe, but I have to plug the iOS device in to the Mac rather than sync over WiFi while the device is charging on my nightstand.

Forcing me to use iCloud for iBooks sync, so my 12GB collections of books (E O Wilson's life on Earth plus dozens of PDFs for things like programming, hardware manuals, standards documents, data sheets) filled the free drive and I get persistent nags about running out of space. Apple basically wants me to rent my library from them.

Removal of MagSafe from laptops. It has only saved my laptop a few dozen times over 8 years but it effectively saved me replacing the laptop a few dozen times.

Switch to USB-C with no USB-A port. Between removal of ports and removal of MagSafe, there is little incentive for me to upgrade from a 2010 11" MBA to the MacBook. The 13" MBA doesn't fit in my camera bags. Copying 16GB of photos to USB disks over USB 2 is painful but at least I can do it without extra dongles.

iBooks randomly deleting books from my devices. Sure, I can redownload from iCloud or the Apple Bookstore, but only if I have internet connectivity (there's a reason the books are on the iPad in the first place rather than using a web browser to read stuff).

The cost is not a barrier for me. Jony Ives' fascination with thinness and lack of holes in the chassis is a barrier for me.

</comment><comment> circles_for-day People have written this article for 25 years. I think it's surprising they keep doing it.

<comment><USER26> If Apple had not had successes like iPod and iPhone, there wasn't much left to write about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> The price, to save you a click

</comment><comment><USER28> The motivation for me to switch in 2007 was living the virus nightmare on Windows, time machine backups and access to really great photo management and video editing software preinstalled given I'd just had kids.

My most recent Mac was a 27" 5k when 4K monitors were on the cusp of being a thing, given the whole Mac was the same price as a high end 4K monitor - <USER2> the monitor - at the time. Love fusion drives as well.

Those were contingent on the times though. Nowadays there are decent software options on Windows, backups are still a pain but there are decent cloud options, I don't know. Up to now the Mac has given me things you couldn't really get on Windows. If that's not the case when my current max expires I might consider Windows again but it would be a wrench to go back.

</comment><comment><USER29> For me it's been the opposite, actually. I use Mac, Windows 10 and Ubuntu for different use cases, and I keep finding Mac more appealing. I have to work around Ubuntu to make some stuff work sometimes. I really like Windows 10, but I have issues occasionally as well. With OS X, most of the stuff I try to do just work.

A few years back, I'd prefer to buy my own hardware, build my own PC and run Windows to save some cash and have a powerful PC. I would need to work a bit to make it work, sure, but I'd save some money. Now, I'd rather get an Mac, which is more expensive, but for which I have to worry about much fewer hardware and software issues.

I wonder if getting one of those Microsoft Surface Laptops would give me a similar experience with Windows 10, though.

</comment><comment><USER30> As far as price, I was looking into getting a 5K iMac in a year specifically because of the price.

It doesn't seem like anyone sells a 5K monitor anymore except for LG and those go for $1300.

$2300 for a decently equipped iMac 5K (16GB of RAM, 256GB SSD) is not bad.

<comment><USER31> I don't get this line of logic (if you want to get a comparable Linux/windows laptop with retinia/5k display, it will cost you just as much as a Mac, so macs are pretty reasonably priced) when justifying Mac purchases. why are you so dead set on getting a 5k display when you can get a comparable 4k display for $600? is the 25% increase in pixel density really that important?

<comment><USER30> The other side of the question, is why wouldn't I spend an extra $600 for something that I'm going to use everyday that can easily last for 5 years?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I only bought a Mac because I like the experience and unix utilities for programming. I still use Windows when I want to game on PC. Presumably this is the case for a lot of developers?

<comment><USER12> Have you tried Steam Play? It has worked quite well for me on Linux, and I know Proton works on macOS (not sure if you still have to build from source), but it could be enough to get you away from dual booting.

I dual boot Windows and Linux, but since I default to Linux, I find myself choosing to do stuff on Linux instead of rebooting (even though rebooting takes ~10s). Only rarely do I get a hankering for a Windows-only game.

I wonder if Valve's initiative will get enough games to work that people increasingly switch to Linux/macOS for gaming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Serious question- is this a famous photographer or otherwise celebrity? I have no idea. I fully support anyone using the computer that works best for them. I even concede that Apple is not making their best stuff right now. I don't understand why people write these types of essays. Are they trying to convince others to make the same decision? Are they looking for validation? I can see how this comes across as snark but I really don't understand the motivation.

<comment><USER34> People define themselves by what they buy. That's part of consumerism. Articles like this are just people expressing themselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I like both types of PC I think apple decided performance was good enough at some point and judging by how well my wife's mac book air works with imovie they were right.. Meanwhile PCs carried on getting faster.. But only the expensive ones. Windows 10 is OK, it has a nice crash screen I see about once a week. Save work often. And enjoy the adds.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have frustrations with Mac and really what I want is a good Unix laptop for my work stuff. Any games that can run are a bonus.

I've tried Linux for 20 years and still have hope.

Windows 10 is my org's basic workstation deployment so I have something that sits on my desk for email and hr forms and stuff. It's a horrible experience as it's slow, needs admin rights for basic user functions (install apps, change screen saver, set notifications, etc).

Using windows vms for a few projects showed me that most of these annoyances are actually my org's configuration, not really flaws of Windows.

So now I try windows for my main laptop every year or so and give up because Microsoft's consumer distributors is too much of a pain to pare down. And some of the configurations I want, I can only get through a business account (office365 planner, excel forms- stuff I use macOS and google forms for).

It's possible to set up what I want, but I have to be a Microsoft admin for myself (time to renew my MCSE cert).

Comically, I can get a pirate iso that's pretty nice, but it's a hobby to keep it cracked.

I hope Microsoft makes their own "pro" line that have a stripped down distro targeted to developers or local root users with their own hardware.

Until then, I just bought a Mac book pro this Jan because it's the best available for me (sadly with only 16GB memory).

</comment><comment><USER37> Windows 10 on the same hardware as Mac OS X is a revelation. Windows 10 on a Core 2 Duo system is really speedy but Mac OS is very sluggish. In particular, OS X on 2GB is almost grinds to a halt but Win 10 flies. Mac OS X seems to require 2-4x the memory for the same application. E.g. running Firefox.

</comment><comment><USER38> Add to the fact that Microsoft now has a hardware line which can keep up with Apple on design, but running circles around its product line regarding features/price.

Don't believe me? Go try a Surface Pro, Surface Book and/or Surface Studio. They'll blow your mind.

</comment><comment><USER39> I believe Mac is around 9% of revenue for Apple now. And maybe at lower margins than other products. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they tweaked iOS into providing a mediocre desktop/laptop variant and dropped MacOS altogether.

</comment><comment><USER40> I think the other critiques of is article are on point, but there was one quote that did resonate with me (as an Apple user and developer since the ][ ):

"Seriously Apple, what is going on with the QA department there?"

<comment><USER41> > "Seriously Apple, what is going on with the QA department there?"

Oh boy, he is in for a surprise on the Microsoft side of the fence...

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> If you have a powerful desktop you can run osx in vmware with some less than legal patches. It's not as responsive as a native setup but for ios development, it's enough.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'll wait for the next piece in the series where the author trashes Windows and switches back to Mac. Because Windows 10 is absolutely broken.

</comment><comment><USER43> My problem with Windows is that Emacs runs too sluggishly on it.

</comment><comment><USER44> 2 comments:

* Only a mug buys Apple kit new. Same as only a mug buys cars or motorbikes new. (Did you know that the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?)

* Wait 'til he gets a cryptolocker infection. Then we'll see how much he loves Windows.

</comment><comment><USER45> Why I Stopped Caring About Desktop OSes \- Me, circa 2006

</comment><comment><USER46> I have some oldschool hardcore Apple fanboys that did the same in the past couple of years. Who could imagine, 5 to 10 years ago, that such trend would exist today?

<comment><USER47> Whoa there, I get called a 'fanboi' (you appear to have mis-spelled it) _all the time_ , and it's because of my unwavering, steadfast, absolutely doesn't-matter-what-they-do loyalty to Apple. I mean, Tim Cook could murder my dog, I literally do not give a shit.

You can't go calling these weak fools who've switched fanboys. They give us fanbois a bad name!

/s</comment></comment>


JLayout — JavaScript Layout Algorithms - <AUTHOR> http://www.bramstein.com/projects/jlayout/

<comment><USER2> I really didn't find this algorithm to be as good as jQuery Masonry, posted on here a week or so ago:

<http://desandro.com/resources/jquery-masonry/>

Basically, jQuery Masonry does intelligent layout, but JLayout is just doing things which can be done with ordinary floats or even tables. It might seem archaic to use tables for layouts such as this but they work even if JavaScript is turned off. And clever use of floats and min-width and max-width can achieve the same effect as well.

Why use JavaScript for something simple that can be done using CSS?

<comment><USER3> I don't think the point of this library is to provide a best fit layout as Masonry tries to. Instead this is a layout manager in which you could encode any number of layout algorithms including the Masonry algorithm.

This layout manager design pattern, while likely always less efficient than native browser mechanisms, is something we'll probably see more of as the browser takes on a greater role as an application host. Without programmatic layout to complement or override the browser's native layout system we won't get the sorts of visual UI building systems and application layouts you're starting to see in frameworks like Cappuccino and Sproutcore.

<comment><USER4> You hit the nail on the head. The library is meant for applications that can not use CSS layout, because the algorithm they need is not possible in CSS, or because they are rendering to a context that does not have layout management such as Canvas or SVG. Think of projects like Mozilla Bespin (<https://mozillalabs.com/bespin/>) which uses Canvas for drawing its editor. Having standard layout algorithms available would be a great help there.

I was quite hesitant about making the jQuery plugin public because I was fearing reactions such as this. It was meant as a demo, and a nice way to test the layout managers. For a long time I had a message on the jQuery plugin page stating something along the lines of "please, please, consider using CSS before you use this plugin."

The nice thing about programming against a layout manager API is that you can easily write new algorithms while the (DOM) interface remains the same. It would be trivial to write a layout manager that does layout like Masonry. As another example, I'm currently working on a pack layout which can be used to pack small images into a larger one (e.g. CSS sprites,) and a layout manager that implements the CSS box layout module. I was also considering a text layout based on my TeX line breaking work (<http://www.bramstein.com/projects/typeset/.>)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Funny, I built this for a client ten years ago (back when NN6 was still in beta), and every time I think back on it I wonder what I was thinking not simply using the browser's HTML engine to lay things out for me. You end up essentially rewriting the hardest bits of the browser in javascript to get everything to lay out properly.

There were actually a few valid reasons for it back then, but now in the age of layout standards, I don't see it as particularly valuable.</comment>


Improving Your Python Productivity - <AUTHOR> http://ozkatz.github.com/improving-your-python-productivity.html

<comment><USER2> Not a very helpful article. Far from a general "improve your Python productivty", it's more like "here are some minor random Python features that I think are useful".

TLDR:

* Use dict and set comprehensions.

* Use collections.Counter.

* Use json.dumps or the pprint module for pretty printing.

* Create simple web services with Python's XML-RPC library.

* Use open source libraries...

<comment><USER3> As we move toward languages with big standard libraries, productivity becomes more and more about knowing what you don't have to do yourself.

Case in point - even as a Python veteran, I've never seen/used collections.Counter before. It'll save me from writing the same stupid three lines over and over, and is probably implemented faster than I naively do. I'd say that this will improve my productivity.

<comment><USER4> The biggest problem is having to use old LTS distros in production that only have python 2.6 for example. I'm glad that most LTS versions are soon to be using python 2.7.

I know 2.7 has been around for a long time, but so much production software is running on RHEL/Centos systems with 2.6.

<comment><USER5> To make you feel a bit better - some of us are still on RHEL 5 and Python 2.4. Yes it is painful.

<comment><USER6> You can find python26 in EPEL [1] or follow this guide [2] to setup 2.7. This will install 2.6 or 2.7 in parallel, do not set these by default as it will break yum.

[1] <https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Python26>

[2] [http://villaroad.com/2010/10/rolling-python-2-6-2-on- centos-...](http://villaroad.com/2010/10/rolling-python-2-6-2-on-centos-5-3/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Despite the negative comments here, it's always good to be reminded of some of nice built-in things. Reminds me how awesome pythons standard functionality really is.

<comment><USER8> Agreed. I use python a lot and I hadn't seen that dict comprehensions had been back-ported to 2.7. So while the rest of it wasn't super useful to me, that was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> As someone just said on reddt #4 reminds me of python -m SimpleHTTPServer. Very useful, even when you are not coding in Python!

<comment><USER10> #3 is also usable from the shell in a similar way:

        echo '{"foo":1, "bar":[1,2,3]}' | python -m json.tool

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> One single productivity python I'd like to share here is to use 'string foo'.partition(' ') instead of splitting. The reason is the edge cases are better handled with partition: you always get a 3-tuple, no matter what. No need to precheck that the split is here, or to postcheck the length of the splitted list.

<comment><USER12> On the other hand, .split() with no argument splits on any amount of whitespace (\s+, as a regex). That's often quite a useful edge case to have handled for you. You can also do .split(c, 1) to limit it to a single split. It could still split 0 times, though - it just depends which edge cases you want to handle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> After reading a few comments here I'm surprised there's no "Effective Python" book already (given the age of Python itself).

In Java and .NET, that's what we try to do everyday: writing idiomatic Java/C# code (style, architecture, patterns, standard libs, etc).

<comment><USER14> Though I have yet to come across book titled "Effective Python", books like "Python Essential Reference" by David Beazly and "Python Cook Book" covers lot of ares that you mention above.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I was hoping to find some mention of IDE, IDE plugin, or more process oriented stuff, rather than language features.

</comment><comment><USER16> Whitespace as syntax? Really?

<comment><USER17> Yes really. If you have any further questions about the python language specification, you can answer them here: <http://docs.python.org/3/reference/></comment></comment>


Bing Reported as Running on Linux - <AUTHOR> http://dlbates.com/Post/bing-reported-as-running-on-linux/ <comment><USER2> nothing to this. the person mistook akamai servers for msft bing servers.</comment>


Money Doesn't Solve Problems. People Solve Problems - <AUTHOR> https://www.feld.com/archives/2019/01/money-doesnt-solve-problems-people-solve-problems.html <comment><USER2> Often, both are needed.

If nothing else, people having to chase money are left unable to solve problems.</comment>


Why Julia's DataFrames Are Still Slow - <AUTHOR> http://www.johnmyleswhite.com/notebook/2015/11/28/why-julias-dataframes-are-still-slow/ <comment><USER2> Relevant video from juliacon on the type system core: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUP3cSKb8sI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUP3cSKb8sI)

Julia's type system is geared towards JIT compilation. Methods are compiled when they are first called. Then, of course, full type information for the arguments is available. That's quite enough for Matlab-style code with the occasional JITted method. But Julia has one glaring disadvantage for everything beyond that: The return type of methods cannot be specified / enforced.

1) With "black box" methods (where the return type cannot be inferred as in this DataFrames article) the code becomes horribly slow. And you have to dig into the internal method representations to become aware of the type inference results.

2) It hurts the ability of Julia to produce binary executables. When the types are not 100% inferrable, the entire JIT infrastructure needs to be dragged along.

3) Types are not only an aid for the compiler, but also an aid for the programmer. With SIUnits [1] and method return types, Julia could even tell when the physics represented in the code is flawed!!

If Julia's type system were stronger, it could become a prime platform to develop Computer Algebra Systems (CAS). That could lead to a great unification of symbolic and numerical "computation platforms". However, current Julia is unable to represent the mathematics encoded in the type system of open source CAS like Axiom [2]. Also note the github issue on Julia and dependent typing [3].

Imho, there is still a great potential for the Julia type system without breaking existing code.

[1] [https://github.com/Keno/SIUnits.jl](https://github.com/Keno/SIUnits.jl)

[2] [http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.27....](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.27.2331&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

[3] [https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/6113](https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/6113)

<comment><USER3> > The return type of methods cannot be specified / enforced.

That's true in one sense - typed functions aren't really a thing yet (functor types are, but they're more clumsy to use in a lot of cases).

With regards to your first point, you can actually specify the types of returned values by utilizing assertions:

      julia> h{T}(x::T) = f(g(x))::Complex{T}
      h (generic function with 1 method)

Type inference should totally pick up on the return type declared here, and an error is thrown if `f(x)` does not return something of type `Complex{T}`.

Assertions obviously don't address all of the concerns you listed, but I find they still help a lot to address type inference "failures" in some places, and seem to be underutilized in a few cases.

This doesn't help any memory boxing/slowness inherent to `f` or `g`, but downstream methods (e.g. callers of `h`) can definitely benefit from the explicit information.

<comment><USER3> > if `f(x)` does not return something of type `Complex{T}`

Sorry, meant to say "if `f(g(x)` does not return something of type `Complex{T}`"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Is there no way to take advantage of the fact that most columns, most of the time, are filled with doubles? This is both the expected case and the thing we want to go faster. I don't know compiler design, which is why I ask.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't see how this could be done without putting information about the internal representation of DataFrames into the compiler. Such an approach would seem to require breaking important abstraction barriers and would couple the language to a specific back-end for data representation that might need to be replaced in the future to handle things like out-of-core data frames.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> One thing I would really like to see happen is out of core data and statistics in Julia just like SAS. Not possible in either R or Python.

<comment><USER6> If I understand you, this is indeed possible and has been recently implemented in Python. Take a look at dask: [http://dask.pydata.org/en/latest/](http://dask.pydata.org/en/latest/)

> Users interact with dask either by making graphs directly or through the > dask collections which provide larger-than-memory counterparts to existing > popular libraries:

<comment><USER7> Just to clarify, OP statement of "out of the core" means concurrent processes?

<comment><USER8> I think he means operating on data that doesn't fit in memory, and as mentioned I think R and Python both have packages for that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Is there any good alternative library to DataFrames?</comment>


The Grand C++ Error Explosion Competition - <AUTHOR> https://tgceec.tumblr.com/post/74534916370/results-of-the-grand-c-error-explosion/ <comment><USER2> One of my main complaints about C++ metaprogramming is that its evaluation can be as complex as the runtime behavior of a normal program, but AFAIK no compiler provides metaprogram _debugging tools_. E.g., execution tracing or single-step debugging of metaprogram execution.

Anyone know of good tools of this nature for gcc and/or clang?

<comment><USER3> Yes, Templite and Templar: [https://baptiste-wicht.com/posts/2016/02/use- templight-and-t...](https://baptiste-wicht.com/posts/2016/02/use-templight- and-templar-to-debug-cpp-templates.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > We also tested this with Clang, which detects correctly the missing > semicolon, after which it anyway tries to evaluate the infinite template > recursion and eventually segfaults

When you break the compiler with a list of errors, you've successfully hung the programmer out to dry.

</comment><comment><USER5> I really hope the first thing Automattic do when they acquire Tumblr is to kill that ridiculous OAuth splash screen.

<comment><USER6> So if it annoys you, why do you still surf their site? I shift my attenton to sites which treat me fairly (and so I do with them. tit for tat).

<comment><USER5> I don't - and it seems millions more people have turned away too, given the precipitous drop in their audience and valuation. It was just in this case I didn't notice the link was to tumblr before I clicked on it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If you like this sort of thing, you'll probably enjoy The International Obfuscated C Code Contest. [https://www.ioccc.org](https://www.ioccc.org)

Winning entries: [https://www.ioccc.org/years.html](https://www.ioccc.org/years.html)

I quite like self-generating progs, eg: [https://www.ioccc.org/1990/scjones.c](https://www.ioccc.org/1990/scjones.c) [https://www.ioccc.org/2000/dhyang.c](https://www.ioccc.org/2000/dhyang.c)

</comment><comment><USER8> Worth noting that the preprocessor made this so easy that they had to create a separate division, and templates made it easy for most of the rest. Future language designers, take note.

</comment><comment><USER9> Sort of hilarious here, given the premise of the competition (that C++ has outrageously long error messages), that the winner is exploiting the preprocessor and not C++ at all.

</comment><comment><USER10> _Extra credit for using Perl, which is the only language less readable than C++ templates._

<comment><USER11> I almost burst into laughter reading that!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Rust Futures: hold my beer.

</comment><comment><USER13> I suppose the fact they stopped doing this 4 years ago says something good about current c++.

<comment><USER14> Color template errors are the greatest leap in the history of computer science. No longer do I need to scan megabytes of output to find the unexpected |unsigned| in the fifth level of a template expansion.

[https://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html](https://clang.llvm.org/diagnostics.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> _Creative Computing_ magazine had a competition like this in the 1970's: provoke the most compiler diagnostics with the least code type of thing.

</comment><comment><USER16> (2014)

Fascinating stuff!

</comment><comment><USER17> When I did more C++ i found it weirdly satisfying to get a few hundred or thousands of errors during build and then fixing all of them with only a few changes.

<comment><USER18> When I was in college people would come to me to help them with their C++ compilation errors. My secret? Most of them would start trying to fix the reported errors bottom up. I would start top down and be done with probably one missing semicolon or something simple as that.

<comment><USER19> I wish tools defaulted to only showing the first error.

<comment><USER20> In my experience, having a list to work through is much faster to remedy than fixing one bug at a time, and then recompiling for the next bug. VB drove me nuts for this simple reason.

<comment><USER17> Agreed. Maybe errors should get displayed in reverse order so you can work your way up through the console window.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


In High-Tech Japan, the Fax Machines Roll On - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/world/asia/in-japan-the-fax-machine-is-anything-but-a-relic.html

<comment><USER2> I feel that the United States hasn't given up on fax machines either, with doctors offices and businesses still using them daily...</comment>


Ask HN: What's your plan for 2016 or What tech you are looking forward - <AUTHOR> A coworker and I were talking about what we wanted to do, and I thought that was a good topic to discuss.<p>I'm looking for a job in a bigger city, and I'm really thinking about learn Go or Elixr. <comment><USER2> I need to find regular work, and justify the CS and graphic design degrees I now have to pay off.

I'm currently working on rebuilding my personal site, hosting my portfolio (currently split between Behance.net and Linkedin) and resume, dusting off various aborted projects and hosting them on my site as resume filler, and trying my best to make a four year gap in employment while I was going to school and only taking short-term and freelance projects not look radioactive.

I'm not planning on learning any new tech, but I need to brush up on my art and writing skills, and actually finish a game project that isn't terrible, so i'm planning on doing the 1 game a month challenge just to prod myself. I might wind up trying and giving up on Clojure again.

<comment><USER3> Pretty sure finishing school is not considered a gap of employment. Also, Could put Self Employed/Finished Degree then list the 4 years and list the projects as bullets underneath. Similar to what I did.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, i'm probably unnecessarily paranoid about it but it does still bother me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I had a project idea recently. It's pretty ambitious, but if I can just find the time and drive to complete it, I think it would be profitable. I think my new year's resolution, such as it may be, will be to actually launch the thing. We'll see.

</comment><comment><USER5> Starting a new blog. Should I go for free hosting? or buy a domain?

<comment><USER2> I would say buy a domain. It's not that expensive nowadays, and if you're concerned about SEO, better to have a good domain and not use it than let someone else get to it first.</comment></comment>


Darksearch – Search engine for hidden material - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/vlall/darksearch <comment><USER2> Doesn't seem to support querying for phrases surrounded by quotes. "Bruce Springsteen" and "java code" didn't hit anything matching the phrase directly.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, definitely need to add that. The search feature in general needs work.

<comment><AUTHOR> Fixed this! I need to index more sites...</comment></comment></comment>


Dear Marissa Mayer - <AUTHOR>

Please put your suggestions for Marissa in the comments below.  Maybe someone who knows her will share HN's suggestions with her. <comment><AUTHOR> Please create a simple, universal login for all Yahoo services and move toward a standardized UX for this and login status indication. It seems whenever I try to do things that require a login (managing domains, etc.) I have to use google to find the appropriate login page on yahoo.com.

</comment><comment><USER2> Please make Yahoo Checkout more usable from start to finish. To feel the pain, purchase _ANYTHING_ from a store using the Yahoo Checkout system.

</comment><comment><USER3> Yahoo social reader on Facebook? Just say no.

</comment><comment><USER4> Please pull Flickr out from the sphincter of irrelevance.</comment>


Show HN: Language breakdown for February "Who is hiring?" post - <AUTHOR> http://kanecohen.github.io/hn-jobs-langs.html

<comment><USER2> You could combine the two graphs to show you the onsite percentage per language.

<comment><USER3> It looks pretty much the same with remote jobs removed:

[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/135901/whos_hiring_pie/B...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/135901/whos_hiring_pie/Benchmarks%20%20Laravel%205%20vs%20Laravel%204%20vs%20Symfony%202.6.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Was it purposeful to assign C# developer jobs to N/A or are they included at all? I only ask because I see at least as many C# posts, as posts for Haskell.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not really, I think I just missed it when parsing text. I've also missed .NET.

EDIT: Scraped data second time. Added more jobs and more languages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The d3 script link points to the http version which stops chrome from loading it if you're visiting the page via https. (e.g. enforced by https everywhere)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you. Fixed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Just a quick note, you forgot to change the title of your post from your previous entry

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I should spend some time on something like Jekyll - to generate structure instead of messing with html.</comment></comment>


Mobile Waterfalls - <AUTHOR> http://www.stevesouders.com/blog/2013/03/26/mobile-waterfalls/

<comment><USER2> MobileSafari has fantastic debugging support when paired with Safari 6 on a Mac, and I think there's a similar feature available for Chrome on Android. Here's MobileSafari's waterfall for stevesouders.com: <http://rpetri.ch/db/stevesouders.png>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> It's probably worth noting that Network Link Conditioner (on OS X) could probably be used as a substitute for a hardware mobile hotspot, if you want to simulate 'poor' connections.</comment>


Try(), try() again in Rails - <AUTHOR> http://everydayrails.com/2011/04/28/rails-try-method.html <comment><USER2> My preferred solution for a safe navigation operator in ruby is the andand gem

<http://andand.rubyforge.org/>

To translate one of the example from the OP:

        <%= @product.manufacturer.andand.name %>

          <% if current_user.andand.is_admin? %>
            <%= link_to 'Edit', edit_product_path(@product) %>
          <% end %>

This syntax is simpler and more readable, even if there is more voodoo involved. Since when did we as rails devs care about that?

<comment><USER3> I'm not sure I agree on the syntax being simpler/more readable... try() seems pretty clear-cut to me.

<comment><USER4> I prefer the implementation of Mongoid's #do_or_do_not, which checks for the method's existence rather than the object's

([http://rubydoc.info/github/mongoid/mongoid/master/Mongoid/Ex...](http://rubydoc.info/github/mongoid/mongoid/master/Mongoid/Extensions/Object/Yoda))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > I know I sometimes forget about it, and I've looked at enough code from > other developers to know that I'm not the only one.

I think by and large, most people don't use it not out of forgetfulness, but out of disdain for willy nilly calling methods on objects without knowing what might happen.

</comment><comment><USER6> On the subject of try() chaining, there's always Ick, which implements (among other things) a kind of Maybe monad for Ruby. This acts as a self-propagating nil guard, so you're able to write things like:

      maybe(Person.find("geoff")) { |person| person.manager.authority_level.permissions }

without worrying about chaining things yourself. I've not used it in production code yet, as I haven't really had a chance to do due diligence on it - be interested to hear if anyone else has used it in anger...

<http://ick.rubyforge.org/>

<comment><USER7> There's a solution in Smalltalk that I'm wondering why no one's brought to Ruby. In applications where this pattern is useful, there's a class, Null, with the singleton null (in contrast to UndefinedObject and its singleton nil). nil raises an exception, but null simply eats all messages sent to it, much like the maybe monad you listed.

This makes it really easy to mix and match the two paradigms in your code: in places where it's okay for the object to just eat messages, you return null. In places where no value is a real error, you return nil. Either value can be converted to the other with a one-line statement, and to existing code, null looks like nil when queried (i.e., isNil returns true, ifNil: and ifNotNil: and friends behave as if null were nil, etc.).

Seems as if writing a similar tool for Ruby would be trivial.

<comment><USER6> But then don't you have to make your choice about whether no-value is an error when you return the value, rather than when you make the call?

With #try et al it's made obvious at the point the message is sent whether it'll be swallowed by nil (and that you're fine with this). To me this seems safer than having two classes of entities knocking round, one swallowing messages and one not, and no way to tell at a glance which is which.

(I've not used Smalltalk btw, so apologies if I've misunderstood...)

<comment><USER7> You can use it either way. I usually employ it at return time, because usually there are classes (little-case C) of return types that I'm fine with being ignored. A list of objects that need to be signaled on an event, for example: it's fine with me if that's not initialized, so it's okay to return null there.

Sometimes, you want to do what you're saying, and have a brief snippet where you switch to message-eating null. That's easy enough using the built-in ifNil: message:

        (foo ifNil: [ null ]) baz quux frob: bar.

If this is common, it'd be easy to add a method "try" to Object that returned self, and one to UndefinedObject that returned null, at which point you could do the same thing as Ruby:

        foo try baz quux frob: bar.

So either way, really.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Sane Thinking About Mental Health Problems - <AUTHOR> https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/sane-thinking-about-mental-problems/ <comment><USER2> Wow, this article describes all the things I've been thinking about for a very long time, and how hard it is to properly talk to someone about anything because any discussion just goes to "everyone should see a professional and we can't talk to people".

We made mental issues this unusual thing that only happens to "special" people, rather than something that may very well be part of the human condition and should be dealt with collectively.

Also the issue that getting well seems "odd" in that people get suspicious when a previously ill person gets well and thinks they were never ill.

> She became an evangelical Christian because those were the only people on > campus who were actually nice to her.

Oh my, I can so relate to this...

Religion likely used to serve as mental health for many people for a long time, all its issues notwithstanding, but when we did away with it in the secular world, we just replaced it with cold callousness and nihilism, it seems.

<comment><USER3> One long term solution to this problem could be the normalization of preventative mental health treatment, analogous to a yearly "physical" doctor's visit.

Many mental health issues are (at least in part) a result of reactions to events in everyday life. Sometimes they happen suddenly, or are exacerbated by a biological condition, but in the general population they often exist over time and never rise to a level that requires intervention on their own.

If we could catch potential problems at this early phase, we might be able to address some number of serious issues before they become emergent.

Imagine if insurance covered a yearly mental health checkup. If such a service were available, commonplace, cheap, and considered part of preventative care, we might start to destigmatize mental health care and treatment, addressing little problems early while flagging more serious ones. People who go to their "physical" general practitioner every year aren't usually considered "sick" by their friends. It would take time, of course.

Physical or mental, when the machine's broken you do something to get it fixed. There should never be shame in that. Perhaps we should also do more preventive maintenance.

<comment><USER4> I think the point of this article is kinda "we should be caring for people in our communities" rather than "we should treat mental health as strictly a problem for specialists".

<comment><USER3> I agree, but destigmatization makes both approaches easier. Preventative physical health works the same way.

Also, if many people had mental health checkups every year, they would probably be better equipped to help others as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > They are teaching kids not to be kind to sad friends, but to report them to > the authorities instead.

I've heard that this is a particularly American attitude, that the mentally ill should be isolated with a clinician before doing anything else in life. Can any non-Americans say what their cultural attitude is? I've also heard that Indian culture is pretty much the opposite in this respect.

<comment><USER6> I am an Indian immigrant living in America. I think what you said is very true.

There is even more stigma about "mental health" issues in India so we might not label many things as mental issues, but people are generally more supportive and social, even a little intrusive into others lives. When a friend is having issues, their social group will actively try to get them to socialize, talk about stuff and cheer them up. They will insist that you don't go under the radar and disappear.

The American attitude of extreme individuality, personal limits seems kind of ridiculous to me at times. Like I don't even understand what the hell a friend is supposed to be if you can't be honest with them when you're down. Someone to share some good times with is a fair-weather friend, but not at all the same thing as a genuine friend. Sometimes it feels like you have to constantly live with a mask on, even with friends and family. And then when you get lonely and tired of the mask, you are supposed to find a soulmate who will be the sole person you are allowed to be honest and seek help from.. sometimes its not enough.

You know a major component in many mental illnesses is letting people isolate themselves. And mental illnesses have been around forever, but they were dealt with by help from society around you. This is an innate, human thing. There is an epidemic of loneliness and isolation in western societies because of the extreme individualism everywhere.

Finally, its fucking ridiculous the amount of trust people have in "authorities". "No we won't talk to you about your mental issues because fuck you, but hey why don't you go pay to talk to a stranger instead"? What? Why is that better? Isn't a friend/family member much better positioned to understand your problems and offer some perspective?

Of course, the Indian way has some problems too. One, a shit-ton of stigma and judgement by broader society if they find out. And at some point you're supposed to just "man up and get your shit together". And mental health doctors are still not trusted at all. Although, given the recent state of psych studies and the replication failures, they might just be right.

/rant

Sorry this is a little hostile.. I obviously don't have a full picture of everything, this is just my biased but honest opinion.

<comment><USER7> I can't and don't want to judge American/Western/whatever attitude towards these serious problem, but I've 2 cents to add:

> Isn't a friend/family member much better positioned to understand your > problems and offer some perspective?

While full support from your social environment is important, seeking good _professional_ help is even more important. The more serious the mental issue, the less friendliness can substitute proper therapy.

<comment><USER8> Do we have evidence that "professional" help results in better outcomes than otherwise? I've not seen such evidence, so if someone has hard evidence I'd love to see it.

I'm sure many psychiatrists _assert_ this to be true (pay us, don't use free resources!), but an RCT would be great.

<comment> wu-ikkyu I too share your doubt, however psychology is a "soft science"[1], so you will not find much "hard evidence".

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_science)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I personally think that mental illness is the rule and not the exception for human beings. It's just functioning mental illness which is validated vs. dysfunctional mental illness which is not validated. Most people, if not every single person, is mentally ill in some way. It's just when they start being dysfunctional that we call it out as mental illness and then they have to do a whole ritual to try to get rid of it or figure out ways to diminish its effects on the person.

And often it's the environment that makes people mentally ill. It's not even the person. So how can you treat the effect without changing the cause? You can't.

Dave Chapelle here is talking about mental illness caused by Hollywood, he says calling someone mentally ill is dismissive, it's not the people ... but the environment. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzqsfO8F4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzqsfO8F4U)

<comment><USER10> "It's just functioning mental illness which is validated vs dysrunctional mental illness which is not validated"

To be fair, this is the very thing that makes mental illness ... mental illness. It isn't that normal folks don't have some abnormalities and illnesses, but the fact that it _affects their lives_ and _prevents, to some extent, them taking part in a normal life_. Sometimes it plagues folks.

In a way, it is kind of like blood pressure. Everyone has blood pressure, some higher than others. A few people that run a little high don't need to do anything. Some people take meds, and some do diet and exercise and such things. This all depends on what their blood pressure responds to and what the cause is - some folks get it genetically, others through diet and lack of exercise.

Edit: It is an easy example only, not trying to minimize mental health issues.

<comment><USER11> >To be fair, this is the very thing that makes mental illness ... mental illness

True, but the use of the word "illness" is troubling. I had relatives who kept pushing for me to go for a diagnosis. I refused for years as I did not want treatment. My condition may have its downsides, but it has its upsides that make me perform better than others. People only see the downsides.

Mostly, though, I think it was because they want to justifiably apply a label to me, and I was not willing to oblige them ;-)

<comment><USER10> I go back and forth on the "illness" thing. I don't have a better term for it: In a way, it is the best term, despite folks using it as a label and way out.

"My condition may have its downsides, but it has its upsides that make me perform better than others."

This is often true and a normal feeling, from what I've read - which is why I think the best course of treatment is sometimes none at all outside of working to strengthen the positives and minimize the negatives. It really just depends on the flavor of the two and your lifestyle.

Sidenote: I hope you were able to keep some of the upsides even if you got treatment - or at least are otherwise happy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> > The mantra taught to young people today is "If you're having trouble, get > professional help."

This is the same thing you often hear in my country. You're always told to seek help, but talking to professionals is almost entirely useless due to some sort of total societal inhibition. As in, the media and lobby groups will push a message that "we all find it hard to talk about mental health, so if you have an issue, go to a pro"....but it seems like pros find it just as hard. They almost definitely will not prescribe medicine, public waiting lists for therapists are long, the private costs for professionals with medical qualifications are prohibitive, and people can call themselves counsellors with almost no qualifications leading to a poor array of options.

Unless you're afflicted to the point that you've already committed a crime, you're probably not going to get much satisfaction from doctors.

</comment><comment><USER13> I grew up with major depression and a major mood disorder. My doctor thought I was autistic but when she gave me an IQ test I was high functioning and in 1975 they didn't discover high functioning autism until later in the 1990s. So I was diagnosed(misdiagnosed) as depressed. I was picked on by bullies, physical, mental, emotional abuse, etc. Just because I was different in some way, called an Oddball because of X or Y, that is something the other kids didn't have.

I managed to graduate high school and college and was working a good job until I developed schizoaffective disorder in 2001. It is like bipolar with schizophrenic cycles. Less than 0.5% of the population suffers from it and it is very rare so not everyone knows about it.

In 2003 I ended up on disability as I could not find a job, and could not hide that I was mentally ill. ADA says one cannot be discriminated against because of a mental disability or mental illness, but I was called overqualified or any other reason to reject me. As I grew older I also have age discrimination.

I wish I can say it gets better, but it is like fighting with demons in your head to keep the negative thoughts away. The thought that say you are worthless, or that you will fail, nobody likes you anymore, you are past your prime, etc. The medicine helps treat a chemical imbalance but not all mental illnesses are due to chemical imbalances. Getting a good doctor is hard as well.

I'm 48 and have been suicidal about 14 times in my life. I'm still alive to talk about it, so I survived somehow.

Generation-X is called the suicide generation because of so many of my generation killing themselves or getting suicidal. It is like life is so hard to live, you are on expert mode and struggling just to wake up in the morning and get ready for work, and by the time you get to work you used up most if not all of your mental energy to get up and get ready.

[http://boingboing.net/2016/12/11/insiders-americas- largest-c...](http://boingboing.net/2016/12/11/insiders-americas- largest-c.html)

Mental Hospitals as shown in that above link, are not always for helping mentally ill people and some are run like prisons and they keep you there until your insurance runs out to maximize their profits.

A mental illness is an invisible disability, when companies think of disabled people, they think of someone in a wheel chair, a deaf person, a blind person, someone missing body parts, etc. They never consider a mentally ill person or accommodating them. If the stress is too much and it is making you sick, other employees will do things to you to see how angry they can make you. Just because you can't smile due to flat effect paralyzing your face muscles, some employees think you might be up to something because you have a 'poker face' and didn't wave back to them when you walked in during the morning because you are too busy fighting demons in your head to see people wave at you.

There is no cure, no magic, it does not go away, you just try to learn skills to cope with it and find ways to screen out negative thoughts and maybe try a different medicine and see if it works better.

I am not 100% recovered, but I am making progress and trying to get back into programming. I am writing this to let people know that there is no magic bullet to kill the mental illnesses, and that we are not all violent like those public shooters they call mentally ill but they are sociopaths and most of us are not, we are just dysfunctional in some way.

<comment><USER14> This is why I don't seek professional help. In the US we treat depression as a clinical disease, but more a massive weakness. If you get diagnosed, it's hard to keep living a normal life. The State comes in and never leaves. You can never get back to normal. They will say your depression is in regression.

I know how you feel. I'd rather preserve my right to kill myself than have it medicated, occasionally by force, by the State.

<comment><USER15> I have a number of friends with serious, diagnosed mental health issues, and it has not been my experience with any of them that the State has come in at all, let alone refused to leave. What in your experience suggests otherwise?

<comment><USER16> > and it has not been my experience with any of them that the State has come > in at all, let alone refused to leave.

My friend got trapped with a court order for treatment - see my comment history. Most of the drugs her psychiatrists force her to take actually cause the conditions they supposedly treat. The doctors pretend that her condition was not caused by the street pharmacy, or by her efforts to counteract the akathisia (restlessness caused by neuroleptics aka tranquilizers aka "anti- psychotics").

[http://www.psychrights.org](http://www.psychrights.org) is a great resource for those who are concerned about being stripped of the right to refuse ineffective medical care.

<comment><USER17> I believe you. That said, my friend just tried to kill herself because she couldn't get anyone, including the State, to help her with BPD.

There's also a TON of literature about how the inability to voluntarily commit family members is horrific for everyone around them, including innocent bystanders. This is probably the most moving:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy- fat...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/magazine/when-my-crazy-father- actually-lost-his-mind.html)

<comment><USER15> The acute mental health care system in the US is a travesty, something I believe we'll look back on in 50 years with horror. I don't doubt it has some effectiveness and that it ultimately helps many people, but I wouldn't want to be the person mounting the argument that it is blameless or unfairly maligned; it isn't maligned enough.

But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture.

<comment><USER16> > But: acute mental health care happens for a pretty short period of time, and > then, from what I can tell, "the State" gets completely out of the picture.

This is not what I've observed. If you have a court order for outpatient treatment and miss your appointments, they'll issue an arrest warrant, for example.

<comment><USER17> I really, really wish that was true. I have done a ton of work with the homeless, and so many have very serious mental health issues. Where I worked, we had a holistic approach with therapists, case workers, social workers (for benefits and housing), and sometimes the police - it did basically nothing. In the thousands of people I worked with, I never once saw what you described, despite the pro bono effort of high-power Manhattan lawyers.

People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency with things like mandated medication.

<comment><USER18> > People who are not acting under their own volition can be dangerous, and > it's a travesty that there's no functioning mechanism to return their agency > with things like mandated medication.

I think there is a bit of an ethical quandary here. Perhaps the person prefers their unmedicated state and although their life is a mess from your perspective, they are in fact acting under their own volition.

The act of feeding someone pills against their will because you're sure it's better for them is...ethically treacherous.

<comment><USER15> It is treacherous, but really you're just capturing something basic about mental illness and the extent to which it disrupts our sense of agency. Rescuing someone from suicidality also involves intervening against a patient's agency, but we generally don't feel alarmed about that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I agree that it's more productive to advise students to be wary than to express outrage at an institution. This should be read by all incoming college freshmen.</comment>


Tesla is enlisting workers from all over the company in push to build cars - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/31/tesla-using-workers-from-out-of-state-solar-division-to-build-cars.html <comment><USER2> This is the troubling quote:

"Tesla acknowledged the practice, and said it has also done this in the past, especially in big production pushes near the ends of quarters."

This is like trying to shoot a winning 3-pointer at the buzzer.

Tesla (and any other company out there) should be pushing their production all quarter long to satisfy customers, not Wall Street. Take care of your customers and Wall Street will respond accordingly.

</comment><comment><USER3> "Tesla counters this impression, and told CNBC that moving to work in the factory temporarily is purely voluntary and that declining the request would never impact a worker's performance review." Sure sure sure.</comment>


Bitmaker Labs Programming College Shut Down After Global And Mail Article - <AUTHOR> http://www.coderslexicon.com/bitmaker-labs-programming-college-shut-down-after-global-and-mail-article/

<comment><USER2> I think if someone is smart/talented, it doesn't matter that they don't know a lot of things yet, they'll pick them up. On the flip side, if someone just doesn't have the right capabilities it doesn't matter how many degrees they have.

</comment><comment><USER3> Global and Mail? It's Globe and Mail. And AFAIK, they've reopened so this is old news.

<comment><AUTHOR> No actually as of this very minute their website is posting the letter saying they have closed their doors. And yes, the Globe and Mail, typo in the title. Thanks! :)</comment></comment>


Facebook Sued by Investors Over Voter-Profile Harvesting - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/facebook-sued-by-investors-over-voter-profile-harvesting <comment><USER2> _"...defendants made false or misleading statements and failed to disclose that Facebook violated its own data privacy policies by allowing third parties access to personal data of millions of Facebook users without their consent..."_

The "without their consent" part is BS, as is this lawsuit. When you use Facebook platform apps, you have to consent to the disclosure of your information to the developer, and have to agree to allow whatever special permissions the developer is asking for. As for friend data that apps may have access to, when you sign up for and use Facebook, you agree to the terms and conditions, which allow this behavior.

Investors had the opportunity to view both the developer platform policies and Facebook TOS long before they ever bought shares. If they didn't like the possible implications of them, they should not have invested. My guess is that this case will go nowhere.

<comment><USER3> I am a developer of an app that makes use of Facebook friend permissions and have seen the various API changes they have made since 2014.

Applications using Facebook Graph 2.+ (which is the only option since Spring 2015 or so) who access friend data may only access data of friends who have also given consent to your app. So if A and C log into a Facebook app, and A is friends with B and C, the app can only be aware that A and C exist. This is true of legacy and new Facebook applications. It used to be possible to get basically everything about B (name, age, gender, photo, etc), but that all got shut down when Graph API 1.0 was discontinued. If this is somehow not the case for some Facebook apps that got special permission or there is a hack to get at the data, that would be a huge breach of trust.

<comment><USER4> They haven't got around that, it's just that this data "breach" happened before 2015 when the old API was removed.

<comment><USER5> Is this correct? Because all this time I was wondering about this scandal: apparently, this all started because someone had some app or website which got downloaded by a few hundred thousand FB users (who gave access to their info), and somehow they turned that into data of 50M users. And I also am well aware the current FB API doesn't allow you to get info about your friends if only you give permissions to an app. That this "breach" happened some time ago, when API permissions were different, would make a lot of sense to me.

<comment><USER4> TL;DR (which someone _never_ gets reported):

Before 2015 Facebook apps could access the data of your friends if you gave it permission. Your friends didn't need to give explicit permission (though there were never-used settings to block access).

Some academic dude made a personality test app that harvested the data from all of the friends of people who used it. He paid lots of people (almost all American) on Amazon's Mechanical Turk to use it and harvested their data _and the data of their friends_.

He sold that data to Cambridge Analytica. This was in 2012 I think. Facebook removed that version of the Friends API in 2015 so this is no longer possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I find it remarkable that when Obama did something similar in 2012, it was hailed as a major strength of his campaign and nobody had any problems with FB.

<comment><USER7> I find it remarkable that people don't understand there's a non-subtle difference between signing up voluntarily on the Obama website using Facebook and consenting to the information collection vs. signing up for a quiz from an unrelated company and having that data used by the Trump campaign.

If you don't understand the difference, it is the same difference between having consensual sex with your girlfriend and raping your neighbor girlfriend because she consented to have sex with him...

Now, this metaphor is imperfect, but from what we could see the Obama campaign was within the boundary allowed by Facebook TOS and what disclosed to the user. Did they push this to the limit? Yes. To the point that FB didn't think it was feasible. But legit according to the rule. Maybe having consensual extreme BSDM sex with your girlfriend vs. raping your neighbor's GF? Quiz, which one is legal and which one is not?

<comment><USER8> The world would be a much better place if people weren't so utterly ignorant of their personal bias.

<comment><USER9> I fail to see how this comment is at all constructive to the situation at hand. What personal bias are you talking about here? Would it really be that hard to elaborate? Instead of acting like you're better than the grandparent poster, it would be far better to either a) engage him in a conversation or b) not comment at all.

<comment><USER8> Constructive conversation on certain topics is sometimes not possible when in a forum that leans too far to the right or the left. There is a common mentality among many people where they _know_ they are right, such that no response to differing opinions is even necessary, a downvote will do (which is doubly useful, because it censors the downvoted person for some period of time). And if you do not support the narrative, you _will_ be downvoted. Respect is a two way street, or at least it used to be.

I'm happy to engage in a debate any time, finding someone else willing to participate is a problem when everyone is only interested in discussing the nuances of how they agree with each other.

I'll also disagree that it's not better to comment at all - voices of dissent are valuable in a democracy, silencing them is the actually dangerous path to take, but that seems to be the path that's been chosen, so we'll see how it works out.

<comment><USER9> I agree that constructive conversation is sometimes very very difficult depending on biases in participants. You make a good point that people sometimes simply dismiss differing ideas because "they're wrong" with little basis -- these kind of shortcuts are generally necessary in life (you'd never get anything done if you didn't sometimes use heuristics to assess the value of an argument) but also reinforce biases since your heuristics tend to favor arguments with which you agree.

However, I'd just like to say that your previous comment didn't give me much of an impression that you're happy to engage in a debate -- how on earth can I participate in a conversation with you when your comment is 18 words, and I have no clue what you're trying to express? That is why I responded: because I had no clue what you were trying to say, but I was curious.

My point about "not commenting at all" wasn't so much in regard to democracy (on a political platform, most discussion is good, because you need to consider the needs of many different people), but rather just a guide to good behaviour, a la "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." I think HN is made a better place by dissenting opinions (I dislike echo chambers in general) but one-off dismissive comments do not a constructive conversation make. You need to give reasoning and explain your arguments.

I also noticed that you seem a little preoccupied with downvotes. Personally, I don't think you should sweat them too much, as long as you feel like you're having constructive conversations and behaving civilly (in this comment thread, I'm happy to report that you made a lot of good points, and did a lot better than that first comment I responded to). If somebody downvotes you simply for having a different opinion, they're breaking HN rules. Downvotes, as far as I know, are supposed to be used for limiting the visibility of off- topic/poor quality comments. So if you get downvoted, your comments might be poor quality... or you might just be off topic. This thread is awfully off- topic, but I personally believe it's good quality discussion, so if it gets downvoted, I don't mind much: I still benefited, but it might get hidden from general readers. That's OK.

Anyway, thank you for responding to my (probably slightly-too-critical) comment in a reasonable way where you explained your thoughts. I apologize for misjudging you based on your previous comment.

<comment><USER8> > You make a good point that people sometimes simply dismiss differing ideas > because "they're wrong" with little basis -- these kind of shortcuts are > generally necessary in life (you'd never get anything done if you didn't > sometimes use heuristics to assess the value of an argument)

YES! The problem is, who besides you and I realize this, nowadays? As far as I can tell, and believe me I'm sincerely looking for it, I feel like people are falling into some sort of a zombie state. Reddit has been like this for quite some time now, I honestly think it is spreading to HN now, at least on any topic that has a non-technical, non-purely-objective component.

> However, I'd just like to say that your previous comment didn't give me much > of an impression that you're happy to engage in a debate -- how on earth can > I participate in a conversation with you when your comment is 18 words, and > I have no clue what you're trying to express? That is why I responded: > because I had no clue what you were trying to say, but I was curious.

That's me lashing out at you due to my frustration with the new culture of close-mindedness around here. 100% wrong on my part no doubt, but being reasonable doesn't do shit so might as well join the party and get an adrenalin shot I guess is my thinking.

> If somebody downvotes you simply for having a different opinion, they're > breaking HN rules

That didn't used to be true, because there have been discussions about just that. Currently, it's not even mentioned in Guidelines or FAQ afaict. (I've been breaking a few of these lately tbh.)

> So if you get downvoted, your comments might be poor quality

My main frustration is, you can post a substantive, reasoned comment, and rather than a reasoned disagreement, just downvotes. And _fast_. That by itself is not so big a deal, it's the intellectual swagger (my interpretation, of course) that so many people carry, but can't piece together a decent argument. Again, this is pretty much what reddit has become, but it's sad to see even HN isn't immune.

> I apologize for misjudging you based on your previous comment.

I can be a jerk from time to time.

Thanks for replying by the way, encountering someone who actually thinks, even if it's differently than me (not that it's the case here), helps restore my faith in humanity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This happens any time a public company's stock goes down because of unexpected news. Investors sue for breach of fiduciary duty in an attempt to recover losses in the share price as a result of alleged negative, material information being withheld from the public by the company's management.

That being said - this should be particularly interesting given the topic. Securities fraud cases are usually boring, but this lawsuit may bring to light more details on exactly what FB didn't disclose.

</comment><comment><USER11> Remember, you can do pretty much whatever you want just as long as you don't screw over rich people.

Probably wouldn't be seeing this headline if it weren't the investors that were upset.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'll truly never understand the people who defend Facebook to the death on here.

<comment><USER13> It's part of the startup mythos: lone wolf (nerdy dev in a hoodie no less), builds a CRUD app, becomes stupidly rich via nothing but the hustle. Attacks on that weaken the foundation of belief.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Can any lawyers summarize the actual lawsuit?

What do these investors want exactly, more money?

The stock price went up by any measure, from Feb 3, 2017 to Mar 19, 2018, so it can't be compensation for that. Unless they are willing to give those gains back?

<comment><USER15> Facebook has lost almost $60 billion in value since the CA story broke. If you're an investor, and this information wasn't publicly available to you, you might feel aggrieved and want to seek compensation.

<comment><USER16> Should investors be able to sue a company anytime its stock goes down?

<comment><USER17> Facebook is a public company. They have strict rules related to informing stock owners and insider trading.

Investors should be able to win a lawsuit if they can prove that company did not immediately disclsee important information, falsified information or that some owners were privy to insider information when they traded (Zuk sold his shares in suspicious time).

<comment><USER18> > (Zuk sold his shares in suspicious time).

It's more interesting than that:

> Zuckerberg has sold more Facebook stock in the last 3 months than any > insider at any other company

Given that there were indications that he knew well before today, there may be a case.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/zuckerbergs-facebook- stock-s...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/zuckerbergs-facebook-stock- selling-dwarfs-all-other-insiders.html)

<comment><USER19> If you read the article a bit further, you might find the explanation:

 _> Zuckerberg's sales accounted for the most, by far. He announced plans in September to sell 35 million to 75 million shares over the next 18 months to fund philanthropic efforts._

It's not new and was announced in September 2017.

From the same article:

 _> CEO Mark Zuckerberg sold 1.14 million shares as part of regularly scheduled programs._

<comment> wu-ikkyu If I were insider trading thats what I would say too. It is tax deductible.

<comment><USER20> I think you have to give it away before you declare it on your taxes.

<comment> wu-ikkyu It's a convenient loophole to "give it away" to your own organization.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> ...and here come the lawyer vultures (full disclosure, I'm a lawyer).

<comment><USER15> Lying to your investors is securities fraud.

Enthusiastic about what the discovery process uncovers.

<comment><USER22> What material fact did Facebook lie to their investors about?

<comment><USER23> From the article,

> "defendants made false or misleading statements and failed to disclose that > Facebook violated its own data privacy policies by allowing third parties > access to personal data of millions of Facebook users without their > consent," according to the complaint.

<comment><USER16> Users did consent when they approved CA's app. The only argument that can be made is that they didn't fully know what they were consenting to.

<comment><USER24> Users that used the 'CA' mydigitallife app did consent, but the millions of other profiles that they were able to scrape in definitely didn't consent.

<comment><USER16> This gets to the debate around if you can consent when giving up information about your friends. For example, is it OK for someone to give a company access to their phone's address book when the people in it haven't consented themselves?

<comment><USER25> Reminds me of Facebook and LinkedIn shadow profiles.

<comment><USER24> (which have been deemed illegal in some countries)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> So when is everybody going to band together to bury Facebook and all these other insidious tech companies?

<comment><USER27> Dunno. I just deleted mine, was sort of annoying not being able to find mobile phone numbers or emails for people I'd like to stay in touch with. I think that it'd be good to have a script that scrapes facebook id's, names, mobile numbers etc from your friends list, or some automation to prepare for deleting your account.

<comment><USER28> This?

How can I download a copy of my Facebook data?

[https://www.facebook.com/help/302796099745838](https://www.facebook.com/help/302796099745838)

<comment><USER27> I clicked that yesterday and got a notification telling me that it would take a while to get the copy of the data. Still waiting. In the meantime, a user who clicks that button has to guess whether it's safe to delete their facebook while facebook is getting the data.

However, the facebook data isn't good enough because I found that most of my friends didn't put in their contact information. So whether you download a copy of the facebook data or not, you're going to lose contacts (you decide whether it matters) and the rest you're going to need to call friends of friends and find the contact info you need, or ask people directly on facebook for their information.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> wu-ikkyu Does anyone know the percentage of Zuck's total FB stock that he has sold in the past year? It looks like a lot but have not been able to find a precise percentage change.

</comment><comment><USER29> There should be also the class action lawsuit filled by owners of harvested profiles. Hope to see that soon and celebrate the beginning of the end of Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER30> The media discusses voter-profile harvesting mostly in a past context of Brexit and US elections. These countries are politically stable. A far more dangerous picture paints itself in emerging and poor economies.

For example FB recently announced it would roll out job-posts[1] for low- income workers.

In poor parts of Europe like Croatia, Serbia, BiH & Balkans (where I chose to live and work as a foreigner), many people use Facebook to find work and network w/ colleagues. In these locations facebook _is_ the Internet. Often you usually accept a friend request before you are able to discuss a job.

FB job market will lock in users from those regions even further. These economies don't stand a chance and are already bled dry thanks to facebook & Co not paying their taxes. These locations already suffering a huge braindrain of local talent.

Their local society / governments are becoming increasingly corrupt[2] because and honest work opportunities are so scarce some people (like nurses or occupational therapists helping the elderly and disabled) even work for free[3] (I know several people who have the choice of working for free or not be able to graduate).

So many people just leave to the North where they find themselves in slave- labor like conditions in Germany[4]. (sorry for switching focus to Germany for a second I'm trying to show some causality). It's not limited to healthcare. Literally any industry has setups where shady middle-man benefit from Germanys "Arbeitnehmerüberlassungsgesetz" (yes that's a word) which is Germany's outsourcing law (a law criticized for creating a dual class workforce) and they are making a killing thanks to the many loopholes present to exploit foreigners/minorities.

When facebook rolls out it's job postings for low-skilled and low-paid jobs it's targeting the most vulnerable minorities in politically volatile regions.

One takeaway from the facebook/CA election meddling is that because majority of people in Balkans are already depending on facebook, it's even easier to spread disinformation and rig elections. And it's giving powers to local crime gangs which usually influence 100% of the electorate[5]. Ask yourself what data harvesting means in these regions, who benefits and what effects this might have 3-5 years from now.

[1] [https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/28/facebook-job- posts/](https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/28/facebook-job-posts/)

[2] [https://euobserver.com/political/136664](https://euobserver.com/political/136664)

[3] [http://www.etf.europa.eu/pubmgmt.nsf/%28getAttachment%29/760...](http://www.etf.europa.eu/pubmgmt.nsf/%28getAttachment%29/760B6259DCF4BE41C125766600572DC8/$File/NOTE7XJLM2.pdf)

[4] [http://www.dw.com/en/foreign-nurses-exploited-by-unfair- priv...](http://www.dw.com/en/foreign-nurses-exploited-by-unfair-private- contracts/a-17728464)

[5] [https://www.amazon.com/McMafia-Journey-Through-Criminal- Unde...](https://www.amazon.com/McMafia-Journey-Through-Criminal- Underworld/dp/1400095123)

</comment><comment><USER31> facebook and other giant sites, they have more information about us then our friends.</comment>