Ask HN: I made a ridiculous amount of money and feel "depressed" - <AUTHOR> Hi HN: couple of years ago I made decision to work a ton and make a lot of money. I'm currently making over $380k in a very well funded startup and live remote in a no income state. I'm in my 20s and everyday, I wake up, work, play games, look at my investments and sleep. I'm pretty introverted and read a ton of books on investments and don't go out much. I'm not an unsocial person per se, but I'm in a small town and it's hard to make friends here. I thought about moving back to Bay Area but the 12% income tax and $2k rents goes against every frugality principal I was brought up in (I currently pay $500 for rent and 0% state income tax).
Having said that, this lifestyle has been taking a huge toll on me. I won't say I'm depressed, but I'm becoming so disillusioned with life. I've so much goddam wealth that literally everything comes easy. I've travel oversea frequently in a hope to feel alive - and for a short time I do. Drugs, women, crazy adventures. Then I come back to this small town and it seems like there's nothing to strive for. I have everything I want in life. Nothing is a challenge anymore.  The other day I randomly bought a house for $45k in cash so I can rent it out, but i kinda lost motivation after the first week
Anyone feel like that? I feel completely directionless. I tried going to meetups and everything but I can't connect with anyone because our interests are so different. <comment><USER2> I had a very similar experience to this a few years ago. I made an app called Face Juggler which was one of the first face swap apps (before snapchat started doing it for free). I made it just for a bit of fun but it somehow went to the top of the charts with zero effort or publicity and I made a similar amount of money to you. And I also got really down about it.

Apparently this is pretty common. We aren't that good at predicting things that will make us happy or sad. There's a great TED talk about this [https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy/...](https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy/up- next)

I think the problem I had was that when you have very little you are quite care free. You take chances and don't worry about the consequences because you have little to lose and lots to gain. This feels good! But once you actually get somewhere you start to worry about stuff. What if I lose this money? What if I do the wrong thing and it all goes wrong. What should be a great position becomes scary and unstable.

Now would be a great time for some proper reflection about what you want from life that isn't just about owning and buying stuff. You've bought your way out of that game now and it's time to think about what's really important to you. I also think Tony Robins is a genius for his ideas in this stuff.

<comment><USER3> Can you point me to some of the Tony Robbins stuff that is good for this in particular? I find myself worrying more and more about losing what I am gaining.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> First of all 12% tax, really, that is your reason for living there? Get a grip, 12% is nothing to pay to be somewhere you want to be or that feels like home.

Secondly, you have lost what the Japanese call "reason for getting out of bed in the morning", which is when you start to die, no matter what your age is.

The longer you live like you are the less you will have to connect with anyone about.

Worry less about the money and more about doing something that you feel has some purpose. It doesn't have to be some feel good save the planet/whales/children, just something that you believe in and needs doing.

Don't throw away the advantages you have built/won/stumbled into, just take them and use them.

Lastly back to the taxes, they pay for schools, hospitals, roads, immunisation programs, disaster preparedness etc etc - given they are not exhorbitant, just pay them and feel like you are contributing to the greater good.

</comment><comment><USER5> First, congratulations on gaining so much wealth at such a young age. I would recommend looking into turning that into a million or more before you hit 30 to insure your future is good to go (retirement age, when you cannot or just do not want to work anymore).

In terms of keeping active, I would recommend moving closer to a major metro area, this could be on the outside of the beltway so you possibly drive or take a ride in to reduce your rent/mortgage. Remember, it is hard to keep the mind busy when you live in a place with little to no activity.

Have you tried spending time working on your other hobbies, looking into things you would like get involved in (learning the ins and outs of cars, setting up a home datacenter, getting more in-depth knowledge about your favorite music genres, designing your own clothes, car mods etc.). If you do not want to move have you looked into ways to enhance your local community to bring some life into it, create jobs, get to know the locals better, conduct local hackathons, and start small conferences to get others interested into what you do, etc.?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, I got my money invested in some quality companies and don't plan on touching them for a while.

As for hobbies, I actually have a few. The problem is that many of them are more of a lone activity, and that makes me feel even more isolated

As for the local stuff, that's why I bought that house in the first place. Wanted to get more involved in the community

<comment><USER6> Buy or adopt a dog. Your solitude will vanish instantly and perhaps you will interact with your community in dimensions unrelated to work or career (like meeting other dog owners when walking your dog or being sued by your neighbor because of her barking).

<comment><USER7> This is bad advice. Dog is a daily commitment for a decade or more, not something to be taken lightly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I can see how you'd be terribly bored. Since you already have a pile of money (congrats) why not deposit it with some reputable wealth management firm and save yourself the time reading the investment books? It sounds like you're optimizing for its own sake - investments, videogames, whatever it is you do at work, and as you say accumulating more is not a satisfying challenge.

But I'm sure you can think of something worth learning that you do for its own sake rather than as part of an overall gameplan, whether that's playing violin or teaching wolves to play backgammon. Since you're suffering from anomie I challenge you to identify 3 things that you would actually find difficult to accomplish and which would have value for other people (not necessarily altruistic, but in terms of being recognized by others as difficult to accomplish).

</comment><comment><USER9> > I made a ridiculous amount of money and feel "depressed"

A lot of people are going to read that and think - how the hell is that even possible?

It does not seem to matter how many times it is said, or what studies show, but people don't seem to get it into their heads that how much money you have and how happy you are are completely unrelated _once a certain level of income is attained_. Or, putting it another way, happiness is mostly unrelated to the amount of money you have in your bank account.

I was once £150K in debt, and people don't believe it when I tell them they were actually some of the happiest years of my life!

So what to do?

I would talk to someone first off. I would suggest a _good_ life coach as a starting point - Tim Brownson at A Daring Adventure (just google 'A daring adventure') is a stand up guy (known him for years) and a fellow Brit! He might help you find some focus on a new direction. He's lived in American for about ten years now I think so maybe his accent is decipherable now and he doesn't sound like a mad Australian.

So what kinds of things affect happiness?

\- exercise / health \- relationship \- friends \- purpose \- contribution

and that special little thing a lot of workaholic Americans forget all about:

FUN!

</comment><comment><USER10> First, you should internalize that your happiness is far more important than how much money you make. If you could give all your money away to be happy forever, you certainly should, even though it means you are broke and homeless.

With that in mind, the most important thing for you to do is to find a great community. You should really move to somewhere where people have similar interests with you so you can bond with them and form great relationships. You could maybe have long distance friendships, but they will never be the same as living within minutes of people you really love and want to spend time with. It's OK to spend a lot of money making that happen, because this will most likely increase your happiness more than anything else you can do.

Finding a "direction" or purpose is probably very important to your wellbeing as well (this is supported by evidence-- people who say they feel like they have a purpose in life are subjectively happier on the average). What do you really care about? What do you think is important in the world? Find a way to spend time moving that forward. For example, I like spending time on lots of different things-- coding, making art, making music, cooking, etc etc. but I need to decide how to spend each minute of my life so I just picked a metric I wanted to optimize for-- the net happiness on earth. Now if I feel directionless I just ask "Well what would help make the most people the most happy" and I can start heading in some kind of direction. It works well because the metric is really exciting and important to me. Another way would be to ask yourself "In 100 years, how do I want to be remembered?" or something of that sort. Just find a way to answer the question "what is my purpose in life" and you should be set for a while.

Those 2 big things are worth trying. But there's also lots of little things. For me exercise has a huge influence on how happy I feel on a given day-- if I exercised in the morning or the day before, I'm usually much happier. Eating good food has a significant impact for me as well. Talking to friends and spending time in nature are some more. Try out a bunch of that sort of day-to- day happiness/well-being advice and pay attention to what makes you feel good and make sure to do that often, ideally daily or weekly.

</comment><comment><USER11> This seems like very much not the place to be asking. Mental health is a serious issue, with dedicated professionals available. I suspect that here you'll get a lot of well-meaning anecdote, some of which may well be helpful. Nonetheless, there are professionals out there ready to help and your mental health isn't something you can bash at like a python script.

Double-check with a professional that there isn't some physical disorder going on, and see a mental health professional.

</comment><comment><USER12> Just take the hit and move back to the city. You have a better chance of meeting interesting people and pursuing hobbies.

You are currently trading happiness for money. You won't get this time back, but you have the rest of your life to work and make money.

<comment><USER13> The reason it is a low cost and zero tax place is because a lot of people do not want to live there. You pay for what you get. So a bit of tax and expenses will get you living in a more vibrant, stimulating place. That is why lots of people prefer to the cities.

Being frugal is a trap. You don't want to be Scrooge McDuck. Better to have a bit less money and far more fun.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Find a cause or project that you really believe in, and put your effort into that.

The book "Smartcuts" by Shane Snow address the issue of wealthy people feeling depressed. Its a great book!

</comment><comment><USER15> You sound like you are well on your way to financial independence. I'd suggest stopping by /r/financialindependence you may well find others in a similar position.

<comment><AUTHOR> Already a long time member! That's actually what prompted me into all this extreme frugality in the first place :)

<comment><USER16> Last two years I followed r/fi obsessedly like it's a life philosophy. Holy hell did it work well.

As a result of it, I did extremely well financially even with my very little income as a grad student. I've achieved my saving goals for the year 4 months in. But I've grew to much pride, lost my sanity, became numb, lost my sense of enjoying life. Perhaps that was part of the reason my wonderful girlfriend broke up with me. By the way, I lived in a small Midwest town. I lived frugally and minimally and I'm not really obsessed with things in the first place, so saving 50% of my income being single wasn't hard. I woke up everyday checking my investments and saw it growing but felt no joy. Sometimes I would stay in bed for the whole day and sleep. I wasn't rich but I was so financially stable that I was going to be alright no matter what happens.

Thanks to several changes in life, I now do feel joy again. I don't know what exactly went right, but I did the following:

\- Not obsessedly following the r/fire community anymore. I now spend more money to buy gifts and experiences for people I love (not superficial ones, the kind of I would have to think twice buying for myself). I come up short financially but ahead in my sense of self worthiness. I feel I'm not a money obsessed scumbag anymore. You might find having a better time doing this because I don't have a big income. But anyway, try to make other people who are important in your life happy for what you can provide: money, time, experiences and you won't regret it.

\- I started working out hardcore first because the girlfriend that dragged me to the gym. FYI, I am a typical computer nerd, who was massively unfit (underweight) and has never played a sport in my life. Nowadays, I try to work out once or twice a week. Just having a trainer train you for the first week so you know what is what is enough for you to get started.

\- I moved to the coast, not that I planned to. I live in a much nicer place with more freedom and amenities. There is a huge difference in living in an intellectual and welcoming town compared to the middle of nowhere, homophobic town.

\- I quit social media cold turkey. I don't have Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, almost anything that allows me to peek into the others' lives anymore. I probably won't ever come back to Facebook.

\- I started to think positively about others: seeing what they were able to achieve given the situation, not how inferior they are to me. And I told everything to them to make them feel they share with a friend.

\- I watched the highest rated movies on imdb. Perhaps the two that resonated the most with me (those were rewatches!) were sunset blvd and groundhog day. Especially groundhog day. You are in a loop and everyday is the damn same. It changes when you see it differently that kind of stuff. I have never found watching fictional movies and books useful or joyful before. I have always been a nonfictional person.

\- I started to be more bold, adventurous and reached out and collaborate with people I admire. We work and talk about projects that makes us no money. But I can't say how much I love seeing a personal email from people telling me about new things they're planning to do.

I know not everything I said will be applicable for you, but I hope at least some of those you might find something useful. Good luck and I hope you feel better for the new year!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Maybe you are depressed so go for a talking therapy or maybe just a lifecoach (I know a former tech entrepreneur who went through a breakdown and now is a lifecoach, I can introduce you). Also help others. Is there any field you are interested in? Animals? Volunteer at a local homeless shelter? Work on creating a start-up that may help others (that what I do and it is great)?

<comment><USER18> I am not a doctor. Just reading thru OP answers I think OP may have symptoms of depression and should see therapist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Recursive, you have everything you want. but if you have, how the hell you want? to have and to want will never be the same, cause to want is to work for a new objective. and to have is to rest by the previous objective completed.

if you dont want to go to "the moon" maybe you dont want anything more. just to rest.

</comment><comment><USER20> Move.

It would be hard to replace the job you have, but you can find many places to live in the U.S. with better amenities than your spot, but much lower cost of living than the Bay Area.

New Hampshire, for instance, has no income tax and a vibrant scene around Manchester. Nobody ever picks up litter on the side of the highways and the winters are tough but you are 50 mi from the beach, from some prominent mountains, Boston, etc.

You might accept some income tax (less than SF) and get warmer weather and move to the Raleigh-Durham area in North Carolina where there are many smart people doing interesting things.

If you like to ski there is Salt lake City.

Work out the factors that matter to you, pick a place, and move there. Give it a six months or a year or so and move to someplace else if you hate it.

</comment><comment><USER21> How is your health / fitness level? I felt a bit like that when I was up at around 260 lbs (I'm 5' 11" tall). I started watching what I ate (I used a food tracking app to monitor caloris in and out and come up with a realistic plan to get to my supposed "ideal" weight which is 185-190 lbs and started some exercise - first walking around the block, eventually jogging and some exercise DVDs in my living room. As I shed lbs, I started to feel better and better, my interest in various things perked up, and I feel like I'm even more social now. Maybe this would help you too? Just a thought.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, that's an interesting idea. I do take very frequently walks but nothing intense. I might try that

<comment><USER22> With success I think it's easy to fall into a pattern of comfort and avoidance.

Whether it's exercise, going to meetups, gatherings, or any sort of public place, trying new hobbies as you've done with the house, etc., I'd suggest finding at least _one_ thing to do each day that forces you out of your comfort zone, and see if you don't notice a difference in your feelings and outlook.

If you're walking, speed it up a bit or even try a short sprint to force a recovery, and note any physical and mental difference as the body does its thing.

Can you approach it that way? "I haven't done my 'one thing' yet today--I need to get out/hit the floor/call a friend/whatever." Go to the library, hardware store, mall, church, something different, even seemingly mundane.

And yeah, maybe move if you need to. Sometimes a change can be beneficial in and of itself, and you don't have to go to the extreme Bay-end of the COL spectrum to find more opportunities--there's a range of options between there and remote small town.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Start giving talks on how you accumulated such wealth in a young age -- people always love to listen and learn from stories that inspire them to gain more in life.

Once that happens, you will feel a sense of satisfaction that will self-drive -- the more you help others out, the more you would want to continue. And since you are helping people out in the thing you are really good at, you will have to keep doing that thing to continue to inspire people and stay ahead.

Though, you will notice that starting out will be really tough -- your body and mind will find every excuse to not do it, simply because it is not your comfort zone.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't have much to say besides "I got lucky." Not really a motivating person tbh

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'd consider moving to the bay area. Sounds like you live in nowheresville and its boring as hell. Remember money is your slave not vice versa, and its OK to spend a bit to make you happier.

<comment><USER25> At the very least in the Bay Area his money will be gone in no time.

Moving to a more interesting place is good advice though as is considering money a means rather than an end to itself.

<comment><USER24> On his stated income I presume he won't be left destitute and can still save some money and invest too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Start reading something else. You focused too much on money and little on anything else. I was asking myself days ago how some people make so much money and I dont. But I forgot what I have and others dont. I'm your complementary. I started 10 years ago when I dropped out and started travelling and reading everything. I know everything I wanted to know. But we cant have everything. At least one thing you can do now is to pay someone you choose to give you what you lack.

</comment><comment><USER27> You'd still feel that way without the money. Don't blow your money.

The way you feel just comes from being in your 20's and sorting out your feelings.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really goddam hope so. 20's is a really shitty decade

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Been there, done that... the best thing that happened to me is I met my wife and we started a family... having kids will change your focus from being selfish to actually care for someone... she literary saved my life, because I would have probably died from the rock 'n roll life style I was living (as some of my friends actually died)

</comment><comment><USER29> I feel like this song might apply: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slox9-f-nSA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slox9-f-nSA)

We all need something to strive for and always want more, but it seems you're having issues finding what you want.

</comment><comment><USER30> Organize a neighborhood bbq, if you want to stay there.

The people who come, won't have the same interests, but at least you'll know some people.

Ps. You have too little on your hands, this will also fix that for some time.

</comment><comment><USER31> You need new friends, new stimulants, a renewed sense of purpose.

</comment><comment><USER32> How do you make almost half a mil a year in tech?

Are you a dev or a cofounder?

</comment><comment><USER33> Winter depression linked to low light levels?

</comment><comment><USER34> Move to Europe

</comment><comment><USER35> Do some volunteer work?

<comment><USER36> Seriously this and there is science behind it.

[https://www.nationalservice.gov/pdf/07_0506_hbr.pdf](https://www.nationalservice.gov/pdf/07_0506_hbr.pdf)

"Over the past two decades we have seen a growing body of research that indicates volunteering provides individual health benefits in addition to social benefits. This research has established a strong relationship between volunteering and health: those who volunteer have lower mortality rates, greater functional ability, and lower rates of depression later in life than those who do not volunteer"</comment></comment>


How Poverty Changes Kids' Brains - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/blog/how-poverty-changes-kids-brains <comment><USER2> As someone who grew up poor (but not in utter poverty thanks to food stamps and free school lunches) and is now making good money in tech, I'm actually more concerned about the effects of HIGH income on kids' brains.

Unlike the overall negative tone of this study, I feel like poor kids actually have an advantage because they have a natural instinct to try harder to survive. Of course, there will always be those who simply give up because they think their station in life is set. It's probably more likely society and culture that keeps them down, not brain development.

On the other, rich kids have a skewed sense of need versus want, as well as effort versus reward. If everything comes easy, I'd argue rich kids are more developmentally challenged, possess less problem solving skills—especially under pressure—less able to deal with failure and less creative. Hence the "spoiled rich kid" stereotype. Whereas society constantly reminds poor kids all the things they can't do, rich kids are constantly reminded that they can do anything they want. Even well-meaning efforts like the "privilege" comic strip a while back reinforces this meme. I think that's where the real advantage comes from, and why the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.

This is something very top of mind right now as I start to plan to have kids.

<comment><USER3> You may want to check the research on this. The book escapes me, but I remember there being mounting research that says in general, long term stressors make you weaker, not stronger.

_What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Weaker_

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight- therapy/201008/...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight- therapy/201008/what-doesnt-kill-you-makes-you-weaker)

"Developmental research has shown convincingly that traumatized children are more, not less, likely to be traumatized again. Kids who grow up in a tough neighborhood become weaker, not stronger. They are more, not less likely to struggle in the world."

You're probably successful in spite of, not because of, the circumstances of your upbringing.

<comment><USER4> On the other hand suffering builds resilience and character.

[https://ptgi.uncc.edu/files/2015/01/Positive-outcomes- follow...](https://ptgi.uncc.edu/files/2015/01/Positive-outcomes-following- bereavement.pdf)

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023034961045755602...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303496104575560261828332840)

[https://webfiles.uci.edu/rsilver/Seery,%20Holman,%20&%20Silv...](https://webfiles.uci.edu/rsilver/Seery,%20Holman,%20&%20Silver%202010%20JPSP.pdf)

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the- darkness/201111...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/out-the- darkness/201111/can-suffering-make-us-stronger)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> When I was going to become a father, this became a subject of great interest for me. I want my children to grow up in an environment associated with the highest-possible IQs. In my research, I learned that President Nixon created the social welfare program WIC because the science of the time overwhelmingly indicated that malnutrition and childhood stress was causing children to grow up to become a burden on society. If society spends the money on social welfare programs to alleviate that stress in childhood, we save money on having to incarcerate or support adults who are incapable of contributing to society.

That said, this article is extremely light on the science and history of how and why we know what we know. I've written an essay on the history and hard- science behind why we have social welfare and how we know why poverty influences IQ if anyone is interested in learning more about it:

[https://medium.com/@ideonexus/the-scientific-imperative- for-...](https://medium.com/@ideonexus/the-scientific-imperative-for-social- welfare-809a49171f2d)

This is not new information. We have known about this correlation--and more importantly the causation--for decades. I wish it would become common knowledge so we can stop rediscovering it and debating it each time it comes up.

<comment><USER6> "But the $X cost I can ignore now looks better on the books rather than 20 years down the line with $1000x cost it will cost to fix."

/kicking cans

<comment><USER7> 20 years later, do we have any evidence of a 1000x benefit, or even a 2x benefit?

<comment><USER6> Better question is "Do we have the measurements to be able to say what kind of losses/gains are done by differing policy?"

I'm going by logic that Ben Franklin said, "An ounce of prevention is equal to a pound of cure." However I admit that I accept this by experience, and not by scientific study.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Socioeconomic status is simply a proxy for the amount of engagement parents have with their children in the first 1000 days of a child's life. This is pretty well studied and documented by the Stanford infant learning lab:

[https://web.stanford.edu/group/langlearninglab/cgi- bin/publi...](https://web.stanford.edu/group/langlearninglab/cgi- bin/publications.php)

[http://www.versame.com/research/](http://www.versame.com/research/)

EDIT: Point being, lower socioeconomic households can speak more to their children for free, and the brain development would much greater match those in higher SES.

<comment><USER9> The authors were asked about potential reasons, and responded with:

 _There are many pathways potentially linking family economic circumstances and brain structure and function, and we are very interested in two of them. The first is the investment, or "what money can buy," pathway. Parents with more resources can buy more books and toys, afford better child-care experiences, provide housing in better neighborhoods, and provide better learning opportunities inside and outside the home.

The second possibility is the family-stress pathway: Families facing economic strain often deal with stressors that are associated with less responsive and less warm parenting. If the parents are very worried about how to keep the lights on, or they have to work that third job, they're less able to be present with their kids._

I suspect it's a combination of the two.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Is it poverty or the culture and actions of the parents that raise these children?

I grew up poor, yet my family stressed education (I had a library card at 6 and checked out books every week for 10+ growing up). Myself and my 3 brothers all went to college and have somewhat successful careers. My dad is uneducated and grew up so poor, he couldn't even afford clothes.

Friends that I had that were poor didn't have that push in education and never went to college and are still in the same place they were when we used to hang out 15 years ago (minimum wage job..living paycheck to paycheck)

There are TONS of resources to get ahead and now with free Internet at pretty much every library in the US, you can get educated on many topics without paying a dime.

Have they looked at the children of immigrants that came to the US 30+ years ago? Many of these children went on to have successful careers and grew up in abject poverty.

A friend of mine works as a teacher in one of the poorest school districts in the US. She has heart-breaking stories about how no matter how much a child learns in the classroom, it's all negated when they get home because the parents either don't care, can't help (many don't have educations beyond elementary school).

The problem with articles like this is that it gives this false impression that there is no way to succeed in life if you are poor. It's doing a disservice to all of the people really do have a chance.

Money will always give you some sort of advantage in life, but that doesn't mean you can't overcome it with education (which is power).

Too many people are unwilling to sacrifice and do what it takes to succeed.

</comment><comment><USER11> "As neuroscientists, we believe that nothing could be further from the truth. We know that the developing brain is very malleable. We believe that the differences we reported are largely the result of experience, and have every reason to believe that by changing those experiences—through preventive measures or interventions—we can change children's trajectories for the better"

That's an awful lot of belief and very little inquiry concerning the genetics behind results as reported.

<comment><USER12> Neuroscientists also believe that all mental behavior can be correlated with physical processes, but you will not see this belief justified every time it is brought up. In research level geometry you will not see the definition of manifold in the preamble of every paper, nor will you see a reference for each standard theorem used. All domain experts have knowledge which they do not attempt to justify to other domain experts, and someone on the outside looking in cannot readily discern what is widely-held and justified knowledge and what is widely-held but unjustified knowledge.

It gets even worse actually. Every scientific discipline has "folklore": Results commonly known by experts but not organized for pedagogical purposes anywhere. Unpublished theses, coffee table discussions, lecture notes that are distributed in private, etc. So even if one knows where to look in the literature to find evidence for a claim, it might not even be there. One may have to talk to an expert directly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Is there a link to the source article?

I see "Ursache, A. and Noble, K.G. (under review). Socioeconomic Status, White Matter Development, and Executive Function." from the Lab's website.

It's not clear that poverty is causing the changes, but are merely correlated.

There could be many problems with the methods which need to be examined closely to see if the assertion that poverty is causing the changes is true and not something like poor parenting.

</comment><comment><USER14> no attempt to understand the role genetics might play in all of this.

<comment><USER15> It's sad because that's an obvious hypotheses (IQ correlates to income and is hereditary) and they don't even put it an the table, at best for fear of being treated like pariahs, at worst because they have internalized the absence of genetic effect on intelligence and poverty as some indisputable axiom.

<comment><USER16> Denying the heritability of IQ and its attendant effect on class is just perpetuating the state they bemoan. Intelligence is heritable. Most people desire wealth. The more intelligence you have, the more able you are to achieve your desires. Smarter people, on average, will tend to become wealthier than less-inteligent people. Though regression to the mean certainly exists, even accounting for this their children will tend to be smarter than average, which will be caused by differences in brain structure. Obviously this is neither fair nor good. But natural selection is a lecherous Lovecraftian horror - we should not expect it to be fair. It's up to us to fix it. Sticking our heads in the sand an pretending everyone is equally intelligent isn't going to fix anything.

If IQ is hereditary (which the evidence really does support) improving the lives of impoverished children is an engineering problem - nothing some pretty doable advances in embryo selection won't fix, basic embryo selection gives you about a standard deviation per generation, iterated embryo selection takes you to the edge of human capability in one conventional generation. The fact that IQ is heritable and increases human productivity is reason for hope. Biology is mutable, society is fixed:[http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed- biolog...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biology-is- mutable/)

<comment><USER15> Mostly agreeing, but your numbers on embryo selection assume we have a reliable model for predicting IQ from genome, which AFAIK we don't have. How much of the variance of the IQ can we currently explain out of a genome?

<comment><USER16> Yes. I should specify, we don't have it now but are likely to have it very soon. Today embryo selection for intelligence isn't possible. I think the higher 80%+ estimates are correct once controlling for reasonable nutrition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Its been said a few times already but I'd like to add in my own experience in this area. I grew up in an environment just above what could be considered the poverty line in Australia. Tiny house, no real toys, books, daycare etc. and with parents who had both worked in shops or sales their entire lives. Adding to this my father left when I was around 3 and didn't provide any support making things a little more difficult. When I was old enough to appreciate them my mum got me interested in books and technology, I couldn't get access to a computer but I went to the library and the local school a lot which had some basic tools I could use. This got me a good start in my love of technology and an enjoyment of learning that kept me going through school even when compared to my much better off cohort who were able to do things like powerpoint presentations in class etc. In the long run it didn't hurt me too badly, by the time I was getting to the end of high school I had put in enough part time work to get my own computer and sort of bootstrapped my own learning from that, going from programming to website creation and building from there, that has in a few short years taken me from the absolute bear minimum existence to quite a comfortable life as a 20-something working for a respected financial institution and attending uni. From that I absolutely feel that my experiences of living as I did drove me to want better and to work for my goals, I feel like my drive gave ma an absolute edge against my better-off peers, although I can't say I'm a picture of absolute mental health, I feel like I became a well rounded person despite my origin. With motivation, you can overcome disadvantages like being poor, although there are other things I was lucky to live without like abusive or totally unsupportive and unmotivated parents, against which I feel I would have a much lesser outlook and possibilities.

</comment><comment><USER18> There's been a good bit of research into this at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Neuroscience & Society. Here's an overview:

[http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~mfarah/research/socioeconomic- st...](http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~mfarah/research/socioeconomic-status-and- brain/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER19> "Might some people see the data about poor kids' brains as proof that these kids' fates are set, and that they'll never amount to much?

As neuroscientists, we believe that nothing could be further from the truth. We know that the developing brain is very malleable. We believe that the differences we reported are largely the result of experience, and have every reason to believe that by changing those experiences—through preventive measures or interventions—we can change children's trajectories for the better."

Or how not to answer the question. Sure if the study is right it may be possible to apply preventive measures and avoid that, but that was not the question!

The question is: do you think that by growing poor, these kids are now "worthless". As in, is there no way to go back for the _current_ poor children, not the ones in the blue sky future.

<comment><USER20> Isn't that was the term "poor" feels like when you use it? When you think it about somebody you see?

There is a class of person in this world who were made slightly broken, and whose lives and conditions embody every aspect of the term we use to describe them: poor. Poorness in ability and work ethic, or else they would have earned wealth. Poorness in morals, because we all know poor are more disposed toward crime. Poorness in learning, or they would see how uncultured the way they live and behave is. Poorness in character, since they can't muster the resolve to elevate themselves from their state. Poorness in foresight and planning, since any money they get they squander. They are poor because they are poorly.

In so many ways, they are like children that need the scolding and guidance of those who have made something of their lives, or, at the very least, our mercy and pity for lacking what the rest of us have. When you do consistently poorly in school, you are not promoted to the grade for your failures. In the same way, poor people should not be elevated from their class except by their own means and efforts. And when their failures compound, though they resist, taking their children to be raised in better homes is a kindness that saves a life that might been ruined by their parents' poorness.

If any part of either of these passages rubs you the wrong way, why is it that you don't you do your shopping on that side of town or worry whether your doors are locked in some places more than other?

I know people exceptionally biased against those in poverty, who draw a broad line between "them" and "us", without being aware. And despite years of volunteerism, until I read "Poor Economics" by Banerjee and Duflo ([http://www.pooreconomics.com/](http://www.pooreconomics.com/)), I didn't really understand much about how poverty worked at any scale, and I'm glad for the excellent and sometimes damning research into its effects.

Children currently in poverty are not doomed, but resource scarcity is a tremendous drain on their ability to engage in risky but impactful changes. I think this complication is reinforced by mores on respecting elders and authority, who may command that children not value academic educations over the teachings of their family or religion or else risk punishment or conflict. Parents who didn't receive education can also be dismissive of its value, and prideful authoritarians can resent children who outgrow them too quickly. A good question, then, is, how do cultures and societies survive new information?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I feel this is unethical: "In this study, we'll recruit 1,000 low-income families across the country at the time of their children's birth. Half of the families will receive a large monthly income supplement, and half will receive a nominal monthly income supplement."

<comment><USER22> How is it different from giving half the test subjects a potential cure for cancer and the other half placebo? Scientist do that kind of thing all the time.

<comment><USER23> Actually, I can recall reading about a few double-blind medical studies that were terminated early, because of this very reason. The efficacy of the treatment was so overwhelmingly positive in the variable group, that it was deemed unethical to not give the treatment to the control group. I don't have a citation right this second, but if you want one, I can do some searching. If anyone remembers a particular case of this happening, I would appreciate a citation.

<comment><USER24> Circumcision to prevent HIV infection is one example.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_HIV](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_HIV)

This strongly anti-circumcision site has some more info, but the ranting gets a bit much: [http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV- SA.html](http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Is this somehow connected with Big Money influence on adult brains?

</comment><comment><USER26> So on one hand we have a scientific study, and on the other some guy on the internet with a pet theory.

<comment><USER27> Your point? You know any studies disproving his theory?

<comment><USER28> The one who's article we're commenting on right now?

<comment><USER27> The article doesn't talk about rich kids.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm rather tired of hearing that people are a product of their environment. "Its not your fault you dont do anything with your life, its what you were born into" is dumb as hell.

Also, this study doesn't look remotely thorough. Correlation does not imply causation. Explain the test parameters better, etc, etc.

People are responsible for their own actions and own lives, not their environments. Lets move on

<comment><USER30> But... It _does_ matter. I'm personally pretty tired of hearing this "personal responsibility" line. While I agree adults have certain responsibilities, the idea that the cycle of poverty and crime are purely personal responsibility failings on enormous groups of people is not only scientifically wrong, but also terribly laden with consequences.

<comment><USER31> Yes. The "let's move on" bit is a tell. It doesn't mean, "this is so obvious that everybody will agree once they think about it." It's a plea to stop thinking about it so as not to disturb his gut-level conclusion.

I can forgive that on some topics. We all have things we'd rather not think about, biases we're inclined to protect. But when the basic line of argument is, "I want to indulge my just-world bias [1] so please let's let young kids continue to live in misery" it seems monstrous to me.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just- world_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> If this article were tackling extreme poverty, like in the families that literally wonders how tomorrow will be, I would probably agree with the finding that this scenario greatly affects the brain structure.

But implying that brain development is directly affected by the family income, without any other cultural aspect whatsoever, that's bullshit.

Brain development is not a money problem.

<comment><USER33> It's not ignorance on the part of the journalists. They did not claim causation. In fact they outlined possible root causes.

The problem is how you are reading the article.

<comment><USER32> "Families facing economic strain often deal with stressors that are associated with less responsive and less warm parenting."

"economy strain" -> poverty

"often deal with stressors" -> causes

"less responsive and less warm parenting" -> bad parenting

How come this quote doesn't read as implying causation? There's no further explanation of such correlation other than "parents are worried on how to keep the lights on". And that's a very simplistic and narrow attempt of an explanation. In other words, _that 's bullshit_.

<comment><USER34> "Associated with" means correlation, not causation. They're being quite careful in how they word it.

<comment><USER32> What about the article title? ("How Poverty Changes Kids' Brains")

There's absolute no answer on "How", only a couple of poor blind guess.

"Family Income Changes Kids' Brains" would be more honest, since this is precisely what they found.

<comment><USER33> You're misreading that too. The 'how' mentioned is indicating the measured changes in the brain as opposed to the way in which they came about. "How did the brain change?" "Measured surface area was reduced by 20% in the low-income sample."

A grammatically similar statement might be "How bananas are changed when you cut them in half," followed by a treatment of the measured effects of different kinds of knife.

Sure, it's somewhat confusing, but the article makes it clear.

<comment><USER32> Even if that's the case, I still think it's a poorly written article.

Scientists have reached a very interesting finding. You can either write an article about how such finding was made(actual experiments, data collected, curiosities along the work, oppositions against common sense, etc) or what such finding means (what I already made a point).

If the article is about the finding (and not what it means), as I believe it's what you're saying, note that there is nothing meaningful about the research at all, just the conclusion.

Great articles tackles both points. Good articles tackles one. This article tackles none.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Startup Trends to Watch in 2020 - <AUTHOR> https://www.atrium.co/blog/startup-trends-2020/ <comment><USER2> I'm always vary of these articles in blogs that are clearly aimed at bringing traffic to someone's company. But this was a pretty curious analysis and a worthy read. I genuinely hope that #4 is going to be a trend for a while. Healthier diets are easier than ever these days and with more innovation and variety they'll just keep getting more accessible.

</comment><comment><USER3> A side note, the cited "first 1000 days" diet and newborn brain development article in item #4 worth checking.

</comment><comment><USER4> Is the bit on freelancer stats even ballpark accurate? If so, that's a major surprise to me.</comment>


Show HN: Startup idea valuator - <AUTHOR> http://ideatolaunch.co/ideavaluator/

<comment><USER2> This is utter nonsense for so many reasons.

Startups are valuable when they make money, and they don't make money because of the idea. They're all about the people: the founders and their relationships to the target market.

That's not to mention how often ideas change. Sometimes the target market changes completely as well.

You can make detailed, elaborate models all you want, but it's not going to tell you anything about the value of a startup. It's the belief that ideas are important that lead so many first-time founders to fail.

<comment><AUTHOR> Did you try it out? I think you will feel differently when you get to the end :)

<comment><USER2> Wow. My foot is in my mouth. I absolutely love this tool!

(Should have guessed how your algorithm works based on the "companies you want to be like" section...)

Definitely sharing this!

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha - I thought you might enjoy the end. Thanks for taking a look!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think it's broken. My mom said shirt collars as a service was a million dollar idea.</comment>


Submarine Cable Map - <AUTHOR> http://www.submarinecablemap.com/

<comment><USER2> Perfect occasion to point to the absolutely wonderful article "Mother Earth Mother Board" in which 'the hacker tourist ventures forth across the wide and wondrous meatspace of three continents, chronicling the laying of the longest wire on Earth' \- Neal Stephenson.

[http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html](http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffglass.html)

(Quite a long read though: over 40k words.)

<comment><USER2> And this should be the cable project that Neal Stephenson described: [http://www.submarinecablemap.com/#/submarine-cable/flag- euro...](http://www.submarinecablemap.com/#/submarine-cable/flag-europe-asia- fea)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Related: Submarine Cable Taps [http://lifewinning.com/submarine-cable- taps/](http://lifewinning.com/submarine-cable-taps/) (Source: [https://github.com/lifewinning/submarine-cable- taps](https://github.com/lifewinning/submarine-cable-taps))

</comment><comment><USER4> To anyone visiting the UK who finds this sort of thing interesting, I recommend Porthcurno Telegraph Museum. [http://www.porthcurno.org.uk](http://www.porthcurno.org.uk)

<comment><USER5> My partner used to work there and did research in their archives as part of her PhD research. It's well worth a trip since you have the astonishing Minack Theatre [1] and a very beautiful beach within walking distance [2].

It's not often you see Cornwall on HN :)

[1] [https://www.visitcornwall.com/sites/default/files/styles/pro...](https://www.visitcornwall.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_image/public/Minack02.jpg?itok=klfRUvgB)

[2] [https://www.visitcornwall.com/sites/default/files/styles/pro...](https://www.visitcornwall.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_image/public/PorthcurnoPW.jpg?itok=6ilofe1N)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Do the gray wires mean anything special? There are a lot going to the north pole.

Also I see no one has bothered hooking up Antarctica. (I always thought that would be a good place for a data center in light of free cooling.)

<comment><USER7> It's very impractical to put anything in Antarctica. The continent is very far from any place where substantial numbers of people live. The northern hemisphere has much more habitation in the arctic and sub-arctic areas. Moreover, the northern hemisphere in general is wealthier and more populous than southern, so it makes sense to put data centers to the North.

Tierra del Fuego, the southernmost part of South America, lies at 55°S. There's nobody living further to the south than that. Very few people live even at 50°S.

55°N lies Copenhagen, Newcastle upon Tyne, Moscow, Kazan and Chelyabinsk. Cities like Glasgow, Oslo, Gothenburg, Stockholm, Kaliningrad, Helsinki, Tallinn and St. Petersburg are further to the north. Population gets more sparse north of 60°N (I think about 20-25 million people live north of that, a quarter of them Finns) but even when you are looking for cool surroundings, it makes sense to put data centers in places where you have people and infrastructure like stable energy and connectivity.

<comment><USER8> Ars Technica did a good article on this very thing. While the cooling is nice in some aspects, down there it's a bit too much, as components become brittle and easily damaged at temperatures that low. Static electricity is a larger concern with air that dry. (moisture is frozen out, and Antarctica is literally a desert.) Not the place to simply set your PC outside and go for the overclocking record.

[http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/04/coolest-jobs-in- tech...](http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/04/coolest-jobs-in-tech- literally-running-a-south-pole-data-center/)

<comment><USER7> That as well. You don't think of it that way, but the place is arid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Also interesting is the Level 3 Network Map: [http://maps.level3.com/default/](http://maps.level3.com/default/)

</comment><comment><USER10> In case anybody else wonders the routes are stylised and not the physical route and landing points are not the exact location.

<comment><USER11> And there is also more stylised version, with medieval style:

[http://submarine-cable-map-2015.telegeography.com/](http://submarine-cable- map-2015.telegeography.com/)

[https://www.telegeography.com/telecom-maps/submarine- cable-m...](https://www.telegeography.com/telecom-maps/submarine-cable- map/index.html)

<comment><USER10> Nice rendering and the additional information on latency from Great Britain as the pseudo-scale and changes in lit fibre all nice additions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm curious why none of the cables go through the Gulf of Mexico into Texas (or somewhere around there)? There are many datacenters around Texas, I'd think it would make sense to have some cables going there to speed things up, or maybe I'm wrong?

<comment><USER13> seems like the design minimizes the runs that are underwater. The gulf is VERY deep at the center, and the distance saved is probably negligible compared to the easier to maintain overland routes. Just my guess though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> [http://subtelforum.com/articles/products/submarine-cable- alm...](http://subtelforum.com/articles/products/submarine-cable-almanac/) is another great resource for submarine cable aficionados.

</comment><comment><USER15> Great display of one of the reasons why GCHQ and the NSA can intercept so much.

</comment><comment><USER16> What costs less, laying and operating cable underwater or over mountains? That is, what are the relative costs of land and submarine cables for long distances?

Looking at the runs that follow the coasts of South America, SE Asia, and northern Canada, I wonder why some of them weren't run over land. (Obviously very many cables do run over land; this map only shows submarine cables.)

In my imagination, it seems easier to drop a cable from big spool on a ship than to run it over mountains, for example, but I really have no idea.

</comment><comment><USER17> Is there a way to sort this by capacity, completion date, and other metrics? I'd love to see a timeline view of how submarine cable capacity has changed over the last decade.

<comment><USER18> Yes, that would be fascinating. Nice research project for you. Please report back :)

Edit: You could probably find some info here

[https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-327090A2.p...](https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-327090A2.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> There's also a project that attempts to map which AWS region is closest to a country via undersea cable information: [https://github.com/turnkeylinux/aws- datacenters](https://github.com/turnkeylinux/aws-datacenters)

</comment><comment><USER20> I'd love it if someone made a Mini-Metro-like game, but instead of building a subway in a city, you're trying to wire a planet.

[http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/](http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/)

</comment><comment><USER21> Is this data open? If so, I wonder if it can be added to OpenStreetMap?

<comment><USER22> FCC regulates them in the US, "Submarine Cable License", they don't just pop out of any document system though. The one I did find:

[http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=9...](http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=947070)

Uses Google data to show the locations, along with the lat/long (using the textual lat longs should be fine from a copyright/data license perspective, though I think lots of OSM people would hem and haw about it being in the same document as Google data).

A lot of the filings are ownership updates to existing cables and don't contain any information about the locations of the cables.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Old news, but it is also worth pointing to Greg's Cable Map: [http://www.cablemap.info](http://www.cablemap.info)

</comment><comment><USER24> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8242448](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8242448)

</comment><comment><USER25> I was actually just getting a kick learning where all the "major" cities were up in North Canada.</comment>


What Google Looks For in Potential Acquisitions - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/what_google_looks_for_in_acquisitions.php <comment><USER2> I suspect the one major thing Google is looking for in acquisitions is "will this product help me to collect more data". Off the top of my head I can't think of a Google acquisition without that property very high on the list of perks.

<comment><AUTHOR> One can make an argument that buying Zenter and Writely didn't have this property.

Unless, they are doing evil and scanning said docs.

<comment><USER2> If they are scanning emails, why wouldn't they scan docs? I think they would only consider it evil to publish the results of their analysis, internal use is probably fine. With Zenter and Writely they also learn about business relations between people.

<comment><AUTHOR> By that definition, you can say all web apps have that property.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Intel's Python distribution turbocharges data science - <AUTHOR> http://www.infoworld.com/article/3117239/data-science/intels-python-distribution-turbocharges-data-science.html <comment><USER2> In Anaconda versions 2.5 and later, MKL is freely available by default in Anaconda any difference between Intel version? [https://www.continuum.io/blog/developer- blog/anaconda-25-rel...](https://www.continuum.io/blog/developer- blog/anaconda-25-release-now-mkl-optimizations)

<comment><USER3> I believe it's the same version. Continuum got a license from Intel to be able to distribute the MKL for free, and allow users to redistribute the MKL packages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Benchmarks or it did not happen.</comment>


EU cripples Net-Neutrality by proposing fast-lanes - <AUTHOR> http://www.ft.com/fastft/352281/europe-end-mobile-roaming-charges

<comment><USER2> Repeat after me: Regulatory Capture</comment>


Google confirms Nexus Q not supported in latest version of Play Music - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/16/google-confirms-nexus-q-not-supported-in-play-music/

<comment><USER2> From the comments:

"I reached out to play support via email, and here is the response I got: "We're aware of a streaming issue with the Google Play All Access app and the Nexus Q and are working on a fix""

</comment><comment><USER3> So much for Made in America.

Seriously though, the Q wasn't a bad idea. I would've gladly purchased a Google-branded audio player if it weren't so ridiculously overpriced.

</comment><comment><USER4> I guess I have a collector's item then :-/

</comment><comment><USER5> Nexus Q was barely a commercial product for like a few days. And didn't they gave them away for free in the end? Hardly anyone will cry over this.

That being said, I wish they kept the name, and relaunch it as a completely different product, as an Android-based console with the latest chip, more RAM, more storage, and so on, for $200, as a competitor to OUYA.

<comment><USER6> Give it passthru HDMI support a la Google-TV and I'm sold, even at $300 or $400.

Especially if it had DVR functionality (even through a third party app).

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why?! I just don't get it.

<comment><USER8> ...said every person who read the product description, ever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Were there any real owners of Q? Was it ever sold?

<comment><USER10> Rumored to have less than 1,000 pre-orders, then they just gave them to all those people for free and called it a dev product. So it cost them a couple hundred thousand and saved a good amount of future support of the device. Plus it was an unusual decision which got them some good press and might encourage people to preorder in the future just in case something like this happens again.</comment></comment>


Faecal Bacteria 'in Ice in Costa, Starbucks and Caffe Nero' - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40426228 <comment><USER2> I presume it is infected from store workers unwashed hands therefore one can assume probably this would translate to 70% of all food preparation shops would have a similar problem.. erk</comment>


The Delivery Guy Who Saw Jeremy Lin Coming  - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577225562995441868.html?mod=rss_Today%27s_Most_Popular

<comment><AUTHOR> Thread of the original write-up here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3579562>

Interesting HN effect aside: I'm pretty sure the story of this prediction "broke" here on HN (I submitted after a fellow hoop-head and stats hobbyist pointed it out on 2/11/12) and it's interesting to see how the press and have social media spread & pursued it.</comment>


You Could Almost Do Anything Part II - <AUTHOR> http://www.elischiff.com/blog/2016/4/20/do-almost-anything-ii <comment><USER2> Can't stand when logos and icons fail to illustrate anything. Take for example this [1] Moving Brand's mock from a Mojo Networks redesign. The icons don't tell you a thing. Two circles for connectivity? 4 half circles for WLAN? Plain text would be less cluttered and less confusing.

1: [http://www.movingbrands.com/wp- content/uploads/2016/01/Movin...](http://www.movingbrands.com/wp- content/uploads/2016/01/MovingBrands_Mojo_results3_7082.jpg)

<comment><USER3> I'm not a designer and I mostly fail to have a designer's eye for such things. But here the icons seem really clear:

security - a stylized lock. connectivity - linked members of a chain, which are _connected_. WLAN - expanding circes of a radiowave login - a human head on an upper body

All which exist as icons for decades in other UI. In this case there seems to be a design constraint of only using circles, semicircles and quartercircles. That fails most in case of the Wifi Symbol which needs concentric rings. Here those are just simulated. And the metaphor of chain links for connectivity strains. But that was also the case when it stands for hyperlink.

<comment><USER2> That is fair, I probably sold the design short when I said they didn't illustrate anything. I guess my negative reaction comes the work I have to do as a user--it took some amount of time for me to look at the icons and discern their meaning. I didn't get that immediate "4 semi-circles = WLAN" recognition that most icons provide.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I have been inspired to change my company logo to a 64x63px transparent png.

The 64 pixel height represents technology.

The 63 pixel width demonstrates that there's always one more pixel to go.

Transparent because said company does not actually exist, except as bits on a computer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Funny response: [https://twitter.com/mwichary/status/722972408613761024](https://twitter.com/mwichary/status/722972408613761024)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Part 1: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11482081](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11482081)

</comment><comment><USER6> how to design minimalist logos.

</comment><comment><USER7> satire is alive and well in the brand design world.</comment>


IndexedDB: An Introduction to the JavaScript API - <AUTHOR> http://mikewest.org/2010/12/intro-to-indexeddb

<comment><USER2> You can play around with the API here - [http://nparashuram.com/trialtool/index.html#example=/ttd/fir...](http://nparashuram.com/trialtool/index.html#example=/ttd/firefox/moz_indexedDB.html)</comment>


Alibaba vs. IBM: Fighting for Third Place in Cloud - <AUTHOR> https://interconnected.blog/alibaba-ibm-fighting-for-third-place-in-cloud/ <comment><USER2> I think fourth place actually, Google is the stronger 3rd player. These two belong with DO, Cisco, and the like</comment>


Ask HN: What's the founding story of your startup? - <AUTHOR> Where did the idea come from?  Who built the first version of your product? How did the founding team come together?  Did you raise money or are you bootstrapped?  If investors, how did you get the money and how much?  What pitfalls and potholes have you experienced?  What have been your greatest triumphs? <comment><USER2> Where did the idea come from? Watching Splunk dashboards of network traffic all day long.

Who built the first version of your product? I did while I was recovering from major surgery.

How did the founding team come together? We joined forces to collaborate and share our threat intelligence data.

Did you raise money or are you bootstrapped? Bootstrapped.

What have been your greatest triumphs? Seeing our work featured in the The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Forbes, Krebs on Security, and many other major publications. And co-authoring a peer-reviewed academic research paper, "A first look at browser-based cryptojacking."

</comment><comment><USER3> Seems to me this would be a great blog or website idea if you can collect enough stories!</comment>


Better SQL strings in io.js - <AUTHOR> http://ivc.com/blog/better-sql-strings-in-node-js/ <comment><USER2> I don't get the point. I have always had a "sql" directory in my project with named `.sql` files for all my queries. Then just load them up with a `require.extensions["sql"]` override, or another mechanism. You should be using sql parameters anyway, formatting/interpolation shouldn't even be a consideration.

Plus, keeping queries in their own files makes the change history nicer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey you do you a middleware you use for this? I'd be interested in trying it out for cases where I have large, semi-static queries and want the entire file to be sql-language and not mixed with node code.

Also, how do you handle queries that are not pre-defined? I have a lot of screens where the user can select 'categories' (a collect of join-statements basically) and pick their own columns (including creating formulas so I can't just select *), sort, group-by clauses, and "pivot" (using CTEs or the crosstab feature) dynamically.

<comment><USER3> In clojure, I define any queries that are semi-complicated in their own .sql files with simple ? parameters (using yesql to load them and send them across parameterized). The really dynamic stuff (off an open-ended HTTP API for example) tends to get built out on top of a SQL abstraction layer (not quite an ORM, but close) called HoneySQL that turns data structures (easy to manipulate) into SQL. Doing a similar thing with Python using SQLalchemy (the other language I write DB code in sometimes) for the highly dynamic queries is reasonable. I don't write db queries in other languages to be familiar enough with their database libraries, but you should be able to accomplish something similar.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Template strings will be awesome for lots of purposes, but the given example is poorly conceived. The template in the original is separated from the bound columns in all manners except for order (e.g. change the name of your num_array variable and the SQL doesn't change at all). The second approach creates a tight coupling between the query and the source of the values (i.e. change a variable name and you must change the SQL source as well). If you imagine a more mature system where the SQL is either generated (or stored separately in hand-tuned files, or) you can see why this coupling is problematic.

The specific gripe of "What if you want a new parameter near the beginning?" is not an new problem: it has been addressed in SQL clients by implementing named parameters. There is not a universal standard sadly but competent solutions exist for node and postgres (cf. [https://github.com/bwestergard/node-postgres- named](https://github.com/bwestergard/node-postgres-named)).

</comment><comment><USER5> Cool! Does it automatically escape variables if a prepared statement cannot be used such as variables within the SELECT clause?

A similar library which implements Postgres format() for Node: [https://github.com/datalanche/node-pg- format](https://github.com/datalanche/node-pg-format)

Disclaimer: I wrote it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey nice I actually looked at this library when I started. I really like the sql identifier escaping, where most just do literals.

I'd thought about:

"select * from %I${my_table} where ..."

I think I'd probably feel more comfortable having a whitelist of allowed words rather than just a blacklist, as there are probably ways around it. Either new syntaxes in future Postgres versions, or mid-sql comments. Take this for example:

 _Edit_ : sorry the * before the word "comment" below is being escaped by hacker news. There is probably some hackernews-injection to get around this:}

select/ _comment_ / * from foo;

if "select/ _comment_ /" was the identifier, that's valid sql, but:

function isReserved(value) { if (reservedMap[value.toUpperCase()]) {

does a comparison on an exact match, not contains.

[https://github.com/datalanche/node-pg- format/blob/master/lib...](https://github.com/datalanche/node-pg- format/blob/master/lib/index.js)

<comment><USER5> I like the whitelist idea. If you have time, maybe you could create an issue or PR which goes into more detail on your thoughts.

As for your specific example, I am not sure I understand the issue. The SQL keyword list (reserved list) is only used to determine if the identifier needs to be quoted. So if your identifier is 'select', the library will quote that because you can use SQL keywords as identifiers as long as they are quoted. Your specific example produces this:

JS: format('%I * from foo;', 'select/comment/')

SQL: "select/comment/" * from foo;

Alternatively I could add an option to quote all identifiers regardless. I might do that. :)

EDIT:

I didn't see your comment edit before responding. I would appreciate it you created a Github issue where you can get the SQL formatting right. If the library is doing something wrong, I want to fix it.

<comment><AUTHOR> An example of extending your reserved list would be the world "lateral" (new type of join in 9.4). I'll do a PR if I get that far:}

RE: comments, yes it would be quoted and that would cause an error.

select/ _comment_ / 1; ?column? \</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment>---- 1 (1 row)

# "select/ _comment_ /" 1; ERROR: syntax error at or near ""select/ _comment_ /"" LINE 1: "select/ _comment_ /" 1;

That's probably a silly example, and I was just trying to think through 'what could go wrong with this?' before implementing. Thinking about it further, thats probably not something you want the library to be responsible for handling. I'd want to try out newline chars too since thats more common.

<comment><USER5> Yeah I do need to go through the list of supported SQL keywords for 9.4 and update the library. Thanks for the reminder.

The main goal of the library is to behave like Postgres format() plus some JS sugar like handling an array of identifiers. If the library behaviour deviates from Postgres format() then it is a bug.

BTW I personally like the %I${var} syntax you mentioned earlier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'd still recommend using something like [http://knexjs.org/](http://knexjs.org/) for prepared statements and the like.

Still, being able to `yield` queries was the motivation to use generators + harmony for me.

<comment><USER7> Nice. Looks like sqalchemy for js !

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> You really should use stored procedures to provide a layer of abstraction between the code and database - you can't easily refactor the db schema + keep your application online when your application access tables directly.

<comment><USER9> I think you and I are probably spoiled by SQL Server :)

Postgre, MySQL and Oracle all have severely limited stored procedure capabilities compared to SQL Server. Postgre can't even return multiple result sets from a procedure or use transactions.

<comment><USER10> Honestly, PostgreSQL is probably a bit more flexible for most use cases than MS-SQL... and with plv8, even more so... I usually use the database as relatively dumb storage anyways, so very rarely will create a view or proc when needed.

Some bits in MS-SQL are somewhat painful... powerful, but painful.. dealing with XML types is particularly nasty. I can't really compare that on PostgreSQL's side... What gets me with MS-SQL is that I can setup and run with very little need for digging into advanced configuration options. Replication is relatively simple, and easy to do (though expensive).

On the other side, having played with PostgreSQL + plv8, it's _NICE_ ... if I could get a full node environment inside PostgreSQL (node modules as function libries), that would be amazing.

<comment><AUTHOR> You can actually load libraries in plv8. Its cumbersome, and not a simple:

var _ = require('lodash');

but it works. Part of the reason is plv8 is a _trusted_ language, meaning it cannot read code from the file system. Basically, the libraries are loaded as text into a table, and then evaluated by v8 using the library loader. Someone could make a gulp task to make that a quick command line tool if they did it often enough....

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Is it just me or does the author ignore that his approach is vulnerable to SQL injection unless the parameters are sanitized/ escaped?

Most SQL libraries in other languages that have interpolation seem to offer a named param option where parameters can be passed as a hash, which gets around the indexed-parameter issue while still properly escaping values.

That said, I'm thrilled that ES6 is finally getting string interpolation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey yes, sorry if not clear, but I definitely output a prepared statement and do not homebrew any escaping! I'll take a look at adding a "TL;DR" section at the top to point that out before the second page where I actually go through how it works:

[http://ivc.com/blog/better-sql-strings-in-io-js-nodejs- part-...](http://ivc.com/blog/better-sql-strings-in-io-js-nodejs-part-2/)

<comment><USER12> Huh, wow. I hadn't realized template strings can be used that way in ES6. Here I was ready to snark about sql injection. Instead I ended up learning that you can really tweak how these template strings get compiled into code, in such a way that you totally end up actually emitting $1 $2 stuff.

That's pretty awesome - I am using a SQL generation library (knex.js), which I'm admittedly happy with, but primarily because I don't like dealing with $1 $2 $3 in my own code.

Now if you had a way to programmatically expand an array (for an IN ($1 $2 $3) type of query where the array length isn't known ahead of time), I really wouldn't need to use knex.

<comment><AUTHOR> RE: expand array for in-clause, its definitely not supported automatically by node-postgres:

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10720420/node-postgres- ho...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10720420/node-postgres-how-to- execute-where-col-in-dynamic-value-list-query) [https://github.com/brianc/node- postgres/issues/431](https://github.com/brianc/node-postgres/issues/431)

which I confirmed:

promise catch err: { [error: invalid input syntax for integer: "{"45","56","33"}"]

but I can make this work by altering my 'sql' tagged template string function, and inspect for typeof <var> array and automatically expand. I wonder if there are there other purposes for arrays other than the in-clause syntax that I should check for.

<comment><AUTHOR> Followup on this. To avoid the in/not-in <array> expansion, the trick is actually to use:

foo=any($1)

where $1 is an array instead of in ($1, $2, etc.). != any($1) is the same as 'not in'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I know it's a hack, but I always wrote multi-line strings as a function with a comment. Super simple case:

var multiline = (function() {/*

I am

a multi-

line string.

*/}).toString().slice(16, -4);

Couple this with a proper parser for the syntax and a template library and it has served me well enough.

</comment><comment><USER14> I wouldn't call that better. I'd much rather have a self escaping sql literal, something like:

        var query = "select id, name from table where id = #{id:int}"

<comment><USER15> That won't use a parametrised query, though.

<comment><USER14> Why not, I'm talking about a construct that doesn't exist. A SQL literal string can be stored and auto parameterized prior to interpolation. You see the :int isn't the name, it's the parameter/type safeyness that any good dev would want.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I was really hoping that the new string templates could clean up SQL from js, but I hadn't researched it yet. This looks great.

</comment><comment><USER17> Looks just like heredocs[0] in every other language. Any difference? How does the implementation change from other node heredoc libs[1]? Syntax-level support?

[0] [http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/here- docs.html](http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/here-docs.html)

[1] [https://github.com/jden/heredoc](https://github.com/jden/heredoc)

<comment><USER18> This is _not_ string interpolation. ES6 template strings can be used for multiline strings and string interpolation but that's just the basic case. What this article uses is "tagged template strings" \- template strings where the interpolation is handled by a custom function. This way you can write sql`where name = ${name}` and the name parameter can be automatically escaped/sanitized.

<comment><USER19> Which seems only one step removed from calling a function with the heredoc/template string as a parameter (namely a standard way to extract template values).

Not saying that this isn't nice, I've always appreciated long string support that in Perl/Python/Ruby.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> What about backtick collisions with a SQL statement like the following?

sql` insert into `example table`...

<comment><AUTHOR> That is invalid in javascript, just like this is invalid:

var foo = "string "with quotes" done."

You can escape the inner backquotes \\` but then its just a backquote character in the string. It doesn't do anything special like call the template string again.

<comment><USER21> Backticks are used around names that aren't valid SQL identifiers. In GP's example, he has a table with a space in the name ("example table") so it needs the backticks around it. It's not his intention to have the string be templatized twice.

<comment><USER19> Only in MySQL, as far as I know. And doesn't even that support the standard way of using regular quotation marks?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Are stored procedures not something that people are using any more?

<comment><USER23> I used to work on a system that require a stored procedure for every database call - it became very annoying. I understand that stored procedures used to be the only way to ensure a query was optimised, but that isn't the case these days.

<comment><USER24> Don't most database libraries convert parameterized queries into stored procedures at runtime? None of the overhead of manually managing stored procedures, but all of the safety benefits.

<comment><USER25> And the query stays in your version control instead of the server.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> just [http://knexjs.org/](http://knexjs.org/)

<comment><AUTHOR> I really like knex, and have projects that use it too!

Sometimes, and especially on an intranet/admin tool thats not meant for widespread consumption, I start with a sql query (or an analyst hands me one) and it just needs to be a report/chart on a web page and isn't mean to be part of a product's API and flexible. Converting it to knex, and especially if the analyst changes their mind and gives me a brand new sql query, isn't really worth the effort (opportunity cost of working on that code vs something more fruitful).</comment></comment>