AI generated music to improve focus, relaxation and sleep - <AUTHOR> http://brain.fm <comment><USER2> I still can't find anything better to program to than Nujabes. I'm going to give this a genuine shot, but Jun Seba really left his mark on me for life. I find myself listening to his albums and songs at least twice a day.

I think it's because of his repetitive beats, smooth strings and soft instrumentation. There's a reason there are 10 hour 'homework' edits on youtube for almost all of his songs.

Counting Stars: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-tTmSY4m4M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-tTmSY4m4M)

Voice of Autum: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvcQWJaaQDw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvcQWJaaQDw)

Arurian Dance: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6E9WMM0vko](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6E9WMM0vko)

<comment><USER3> While we are at it, the following is a selection of musicians whose work for me is both sedative and promotes focus (an oxymoron?). Ambient music usually garners a few sniggers, "this is what they play in spas" "whale music" etc, however in my experience can be an incredibly rewarding and effective method of relaxation and enjoyment.

Gas (Wolfgang Voigt) - Pop [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-- IkNqI9og](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s--IkNqI9og)

Brian Eno - Discreet Music [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE6nQ0lkLdY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE6nQ0lkLdY)

Willits + Sakamoto - Reticent Reminiscence [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdJdDwi1RS4&list=RDdskvPFt7w...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdJdDwi1RS4&list=RDdskvPFt7wf8&index=2)

Aphex Twin - Stone in Focus [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG16BTj5qT4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG16BTj5qT4)

Bvdub - A Moment's Peace [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr3IAMaLPM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exr3IAMaLPM)

cv313 - Beyond The Clouds [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrRIDd5pSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrRIDd5pSk)

If you enjoy this type of music I thoroughly recommend the Headphone Commute blog. Apologies if a bit off topic.

<comment><USER4> Great list! Listening to "Gas", I thought you might also like

Fennesz - Venice: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWAghDS6s4Q&list=PLKtI6DyKnY...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWAghDS6s4Q&list=PLKtI6DyKnYmNmVOGTz0wTki0kiLHVpdi5)

And while we're at it, just a few of my favorites:

Greg Haines - Slumber Tides: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmMDkZhl_R4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmMDkZhl_R4)

Nest - Retold: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69TiaIE4uo&list=PLaAArUShcY...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69TiaIE4uo&list=PLaAArUShcYEBUb8U_XnpL6vKD2kfp49We)

Murcof - (Ulysses, Martes, Remembranza - all great): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMPaSdC1ncw&list=PLhoTtA1a63...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMPaSdC1ncw&list=PLhoTtA1a639pS0ANW_hJJf4alFgKlQvfY)

Iso 68 - Zwei Engel Korrigiert : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvkPmMHGBI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvkPmMHGBI)

Edit: And thank you for the Headphone Commute link - it looks like a great source!

<comment><USER5> Best list I found in this thread yet. Am I the only one that likes to work to (mostly) instrumental sludge metal and post-rock?

ISIS — Celestial (2000) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8XN-3YZL5Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8XN-3YZL5Y)

<comment><USER6> I work to much of the same type of music, although I tend to group instrumental post-rock/post-punk (e.g. isis, pelican, russian circles, mono) with some electronic (e.g. ratatat) and small amounts of punk (tragedy/hhig, neurosis). Compared to what I usually listen to, the brain.fm focus channel didn't do anything for me.

<comment><USER5> Then we're two at least. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Adam from Brain.fm here! Happy to answer any questions. :)

I've been doing this stuff for a while and I love talking about it.

I've contacted Giovanni, our lead neuroscientist, so hopefully he'll be able to get on soon as well.

I'm a regular of HN and it's wild to see something of mine up here.

<comment><USER8> Do you have any science to back those claims up? What are you basing it on?

<comment><USER9> On the brain.fm they list results, but they are super flimsy. For focus, for example, n=17, and the difference between music vs non-music is much smaller than the standard deviation of either group.

So it's possible this stuff helps you focus, but it doesn't appear to be showing up on these studies.

<comment><USER7> Giovanni responded to the main thread. I asked him to respond to this specifically but he's super busy. This is his response:

"He doesn't know what he is talking about. Means do not have to be a standard deviation away to make the result significant."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I believe taste/preference as the differentiator is missing.

The "intense + focus" music on brain.fm puts me to sleep. My coding music is ASOT weekly series, it's usually couple of hours of house and trance music where I get immersed into coding zone and once finished i take a 10-15min break, repeat.

When I concentrate I don't hear anything that's when I know I'm in the zone. It's my preference and it's surely different from yours, hence why the differentiator is missing.

ASOT Episode 751: [https://www.mixcloud.com/dancecontrol/armin-van-buuren-a- sta...](https://www.mixcloud.com/dancecontrol/armin-van-buuren-a-state-of- trance-asot-751-18-feb-2016/)

<comment><USER11> same. I prefer anything _but_ the relaxing kind of repetitive music they'd suggest. the whole thread above this also has very nice music suggestion, but nothing I'd use to get in the zone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm sure that most of the benefit of using this tool is derived from the fact that the music is consistently low-tempo and relaxing ambient music. Comparing that to an album of ambient music, it might not be so consistent in its style and so could distract from the focus.

Still, the generated music is quite nice. I still feel that I'd rather listen to a real album, though, created with artistic intent and not computer generated. Music (as a listener and creator) is very important to me and I'm not ready to concede its creation to the machines just yet. Perhaps in a few more years...

<comment><USER7> Hey, this Adam from Brain.fm. I created the music "AI" thing.

Glad to have the praise of a musician! My family's very musical, so it took some convincing for them as well.

The thing is, it still takes creativity! It took me half a year to create it, and there's a little piece of my soul in this AI.

A horcrux, programmed in. :) It makes music how I would make music. Well, most of the time.

I had to create the thing because it was taking me a month to create a single session manually, and much of what I had to do was so precise that an algorithm could do it easier. Every note, every beat, has to be perfectly synchronized with the other filters we're applying to the music. So I built some algorithms, but they piled up, had to be constantly re-calibrated based on additions to the music as I kept composing. Keep in mind these are half hour to hour long pieces! And there's no shortcuts - I can't just throw a bunch of music in there, because even the smallest pop/overclip/dissonant moment, could wake someone up, or break their concentration... It just got to a point where something with more working memory than me had to take over.

The music in Brain.fm is very structured and obeys strict rules. There are some genres I can't get right yet - rock, folk, and so on. Although I'm always happy when people like it, and I like to think I did a good job giving the AI decent taste, I definitely don't have any illusions about this replacing humans :)

Did you take a listen to the Focus categories? Most of those are 120bpm. (skip around till you hit the classical one - I fed the AI harpsichord concertos I grew up with. Cool example of how maybe this could help some composers!)

Got a link to your stuff? Love to hear it.

\- Adam

(oh and also there is definitely more than ambient music even in the relaxation sessions. Give it another listen if you have a moment. Skip around. There's indian music, mongolian chants, and the nature sounds are also all AI- generated. Every gust of wind, every raindrop :)

<comment><USER13> What makes you use the word "AI" as opposed to "algorithm"? What kind of AI techniques do you use just broadly speaking (I mean techniques that are described in AI textbooks, AI courses, AI conferences)?

<comment><USER7> Sure! Happy to explain it. Although I have to say I'm not sure what textbooks are saying these days. When I talk to programmers right out of college sometimes there's a bit of confusion as they talk about patterns I know, but using different names. I grew up programming on an 8088. :)

In a podcast called College Info Geek and recently in I did a talk at Northwestern (The Garage) and I called what I'm doing "Emergent" because there are many competing little pieces. Let's see if I can explain it quickly here, though please don't be too hard on me I'm trying my best to answer a lot of questions, but I'm really happy to go more into later after all this dies down :) Conceptually, you could think of it as first creating what I'll call "song- bot", which acts a kind of overlord, and has some instructions from me (like maybe there's some specific chords I want it to use, keys to avoid, tempo, brainwave protocols, genre, etc, etc). This song-bot guy then spawns a bunch of little other bots that compete with each other for the right to play/fade in/or generally be a part of the final result. These little guys have different characteristics, like a "drum-bot" might has different places it "wants" to be placed, and so generally competes with other drums, but not always. Sometimes I'll even have little "bots" for individual notes of a certain instrument. They obey certain rules of course, to form a background, drum line, or a simple melody, and then they pass that information along to subsequent incarnations (there's some learning involved in that process, though I hesitate to give it any textbook term - man, you have me terrified here of defining something wrong! :) ). Through that learning, the pattern the original little guys made has more weight and will tend to repeat. But again, not always.

After a while, a song... emerges. A kind of "emergent intelligence."

The resulting song can be quite complex and varied. Of course there's more to it, because songs have sections, but all in all the genres I'm using are very structured. Techno especially, is very easy for the AI. Sometimes I'm tasked with creating a theme in a particularly difficult genre, and that's when it gets really tricky/fun (such as some of the Indian ones, which were labors of love). In these cases, I may have to re-rerun many "generations" of the AI through the same song from beginning to end, with different parameters/instruments, but with the same patterns/learning, because what can happen in these cases is that it starts out simple, and increases in complexity as it goes, so the start can sometimes be a bit boring.

Also keep in mind this is just a conceptual explanation. The code is much less amusing. Thinking of naming processes "bots" though just for fun.

I hope I explained it OK. Listen, I'm not saying it's Watson or anything, it's really just a necessary step I had to take in order to make the computer do what I wanted it to do. I tried out some different ideas, and this one worked the best. I like the result at least :)

<comment><USER13> That's fine and makes sense. I wouldn't call it AI though.

The marketing is just too overhyped and in-your-face for my taste. It reminds me of the startup called "The Grid", which claimed they will build a website- creating AI. It's an often misused term in marketing.

Another cool mystery term is precisely "emergent". Okay I'm not trying to be harsh on you, and I know that marketing is all about exaggeration and wooing people into buying your product and having the right keywords so that tech news portals pick up on you and can produce a clickbaitish title etc. Also it may enhance the placebo effect in such soft areas as this.

Anyway, I do like how it actually sounds and it seems to have worked on me somewhat, but I'm not too sure about that or how much of it is placebo.

<comment><USER7> I didn't make up the term "emergent." AFAIK it's an established type of AI.

[http://chetansurpur.com/blog/2013/08/emergent- intelligence.h...](http://chetansurpur.com/blog/2013/08/emergent- intelligence.html)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Computer_AI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence#Computer_AI)

We're not using that term anywhere in the marketing either.

This is just me talking here man. I'm not a marketer, or even really a good businessman. I did this for 13 years and we're just now taking off. I do music and programming, that's it. :)

But I do think Junaid did a great job on the site. Yeah there's more work to do, always is.

Tough crowd here at HN.

\- Adam

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> After a quick little look through the Terms of Service...

> _IT IS ALSO SOLELY YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO EVALUATE THE ACCURACY, > COMPLETENESS, USEFULNESS OR VALIDITY OF ALL OPINIONS, ADVICE, SERVICE, > PROMOTIONS, ADVERTISEMENTS, AWARDS, PRIZES OR OTHER INFORMATION, AND THE > QUALITY AND MERCHANTABILITY OF ALL SERVICES AND /OR MERCHANDISE, PROVIDED BY > OR THROUGH BRAIN.FM. BRAIN.FM MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS, WARRANTIES OR > ENDORSEMENTS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED AS TO THE ACCURACY, QUALITY, COMPLETENESS, > NON‑INFRINGEMENT, OWNERSHIP, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR > PURPOSE, OR OTHERWISE OF ANY INFORMATION, GOODS OR SERVICES ACCESSED THROUGH > BRAIN.FM._

I guess this is a helpful disclaimer in many ways, because this allows me to presume that all their claims are invented, all their peer reviews are suspect, and that their entire product line is inferior to a generic recording of waves hitting the beach, crickets at night, or a babbling brook.

<comment><USER7> It's just a standard TOS, man.

Here's the Terms Of Service for Yale:

I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING ANY WRITTEN CONFIRMATION STATEMENTS PROVIDED TO ME (ON PAPER OR IN ELECTRONIC FORM) REGARDING ANY INSTRUCTIONS, CHOICES, OR REQUESTS THAT I MAKE THROUGH THIS WEB SITE. I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR REVIEWING FOR INACCURACIES ALL OF THE INFORMATION TRANSMITTED TO ME. IF THERE ARE INACCURACIES, I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR CORRECTING THEM USING THE TOOLS AVAILABLE TO ME ON THE WEB SITE OR BY CONTACTING THE BENEFITS CENTER TO POINT THEM OUT.

Here's Amazon:

AMAZON ATTEMPTS TO BE AS ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE. HOWEVER, AMAZON DOES NOT WARRANT THAT PRODUCT DESCRIPTIONS OR OTHER CONTENT OF ANY AMAZON SERVICE IS ACCURATE, COMPLETE, RELIABLE, CURRENT, OR ERROR-FREE. IF A PRODUCT OFFERED BY AMAZON ITSELF IS NOT AS DESCRIBED, YOUR SOLE REMEDY IS TO RETURN IT IN UNUSED CONDITION.

And here's Pfizer:

PFIZER MAKES NO WARRANTIES OR REPRESENTATIONS OF ANY KIND AS TO THE ACCURACY, CURRENCY, OR COMPLETENESS OF ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED IN SUCH WEB SITES AND SHALL HAVE NO LIABILITY FOR ANY DAMAGES OR INJURIES OF ANY KIND ARISING FROM SUCH CONTENT OR INFORMATION.

I mean, I can talk to my lawyer about changing it if you really think it's that bad. :)

<comment><USER14> Nah I mean I just read it and it basically gives the impression that there's no merit to the claims and any and all results are subject to personal interpretation.

Or, to put it in more simple terms pending peer reviewed, refereed scientific findings, Brain.Fm is the HeadOn of audio.

<comment><USER7> OK fair enough, I'll see if we can get a better one then.

Honest to god we just used a standard one we got over a decade ago, and customized it with our name. We might have even gotten it off of legal zoom or something.

\- The HRV/(stress/anxiety) study is peer-reviewed (and independent, we had no part in it).

\- All our other papers are pending publication.

\- Giovanni's work on acoustic stimulation is peer reviewed, and from Northwestern. Again, we had no part in that.

\- The meta-analysis one of our previous neuroscientists made is also peer reviewed.

\- Dr. Olmstead's paper is peer reviewed, so's the Fatigue one we have up there, and all the other ones in our bibliography: [https://www.brain.fm/pdfs/ResearchLibrary.pdf](https://www.brain.fm/pdfs/ResearchLibrary.pdf)

\- Hell, we're even having our statistical user analysis peer reviewed, the one we have up (before we got popular) and the new one we're making now.

Tryin' our best here :)

\- Adam

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> If you open all of them in different tabs, do you become good at everything?

<comment><USER16> You achieve enlightenment and use up your 7 free sessions

<comment><USER17> You can bypass the 7 free sessions limit by using Chrome Incognito, just open a new tab each time you run out of sessions

<comment><USER18> Rude to put this out there. If anyone here couldn't have figured this out themselves then I'm curious as to how they ended up trawling HN.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I like the way the music sounds but I'm very skeptical of the science and the AI behind it.

<comment><USER19> Dr. Steven Novella on brainwave entrainment, from 2008:

[http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brainwave- entra...](http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brainwave-entrainment- and-marketing-pseudoscience/)

 _" That is generally where the science ends and the pseudoscience begins. A number of companies and individuals have then extrapolated from the phenomenon of entrainment to claim that altering the brain waves changes the actual functioning of the brain. There is no theoretical or empirical basis for this, however. Entrainment is a temporary effect on the synchronization of neuronal firing – it does not improve or increase brain functioning, it does not change the hardwiring, nor does it cure any neurological disorder. There is no compelling evidence for any effect beyond the period of entrainment itself."_

I do like the "Cyberpunk" atmosphere of some of the music. But their other claims require some extraordinary evidence.

For example, does this impart any more benefit than me listening to my favorite working music whilst working? It doesn't seem to. But I haven't had a chance to sift through their supposed "180 studies"

<comment><USER13> Yeah, I'd also like to see a study where they test this magic-AI-music against some generic 10 hours relax/focus music from Youtube (or the Machinarium or Age of Empires 2 soundtrack). Properly randomized and blinded etc.

I'd also like to know what it means that this is produced by an AI. What do they optimize for? I mean it would be really cool if they could do some reinforcement learning with real time EEG feedback and whatnot, but I think there is not much AI going on here. Perhaps even zero.

Also, the UI contains a lot of bullshit frills and wizardry, writing stuff like "generating your brainwave" and shiny animations (It's like how MSN messenger used to write "Loading your friend list..." and other recognizable and understandable things for half the time of its loading screen).

And then after one session it makes us click through a personal survey, where you have to click yes or no, for questions like "are you easily distracted", "do you have problems with concentrating", "do you have issues with personal organization" and similar stuff, do you have anxiety etc etc. It's a bit like they are trying to make you realize that "yeah, kinda, I think I could improve myself in these things, let's click yes". I'm not sure how they call this psychological manipulation technique, but I've read about it somewhere. Basically it's the same idea as some cashiers being instructed to ask you if your shopping was a pleasant experience. You want to be polite and go on with the script, but then you'll still identify with that "yes" answer.

Generally, the site rubs me the wrong way. It seems to be targeted at people who don't know much about science or AI, but like the brand and image of science and AI, as these are cool things nowadays. It also builds upon gamification and all these manipulative things.

<comment><USER20> > "I'm not sure how they call this psychological manipulation technique"

You could see this personal survey as a way for the site to make you doubt or question yourself subconsciously. For you to even read the question, you have to process that question introspectively. The more questions you answer, the more likely you'll find something you'll want to improve. Then miraculously this site is the silver bullet. Buy more sessions here [enter credit card info].

Another way you could see this product, the survey, and the upsell could be through the perspective of NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming). The two concepts to focus on would be pacing and leading. You listen to the relaxing ambient music and you become calm. (Pacing) Afterwards the survey pops up when you're in a more docile state. You answer these questions. Each of which is ever so slightly leading you to the conclusion that this product is the solution to the problems you've clicked "Yes" to.

<comment><USER21> Are you saying that the site uses specially crafted music to trick you into believing that specially crafted music can modify your mind?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I just worked on something similar at a hackathon this weekend with the Muse Headband, it was really fun. We used a support vector machine to maximize the "calmness" output of the band, which is some weighted sum of gamma and beta waves I believe.

<comment><USER23> Is the Muse easy to hack? I was thinking of buying one to play with.

<comment><USER22> The hardest part of the weekend was getting real-time data through OSC. It's been done in Python and node before, but none of us were super proficient in getting data from the local server the scripts pushed to. This is the matlab library we eventually settled on: [https://github.com/MuSAELab/muse_osc](https://github.com/MuSAELab/muse_osc)

I'd say it was pretty easy compared to Myo, but I wouldn't pay $300 for one. I'd use it again though if it was available for a weekend.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Sounds like typical "drone" or "space" electronic music, which is arguably a subcategory of "ambient" music. (Not my cup of tea, but it is what it is.) Also recently discovered [http://mynoise.net](http://mynoise.net) they have some interesting soundscapes.

</comment><comment><USER25> My startup built basically the same thing, but if you had an eeg it would also learn your preferances and iterativly improve. We called it BrainBeats:

[http://synaptitude.me/blog/brainbeats-your-new-music- player/](http://synaptitude.me/blog/brainbeats-your-new-music-player/)

Startup: [http://synaptitude.me](http://synaptitude.me)

</comment><comment><USER26> White noise helped me cope with exam stress at undergrad. Here's my favourite....

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzjWIxXBs_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzjWIxXBs_s)

</comment><comment><USER27> It doesn't seem as good as [http://musicforprogramming.net/](http://musicforprogramming.net/)

<comment><USER28> I concur - although that may be because I've been a huge fan of musicforpgramming.net for years, and find it an immensely valuable tool.

That said, this HN thread has an awesome resource of other new music to listen to ..

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> >17 subject were tested to measure effects of a Brain.fm focus session

</comment><comment><USER30> :( no mention of JM Jarre. Here are some oldies but goodies

Oxygene [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE9jShG9sD0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE9jShG9sD0)

Magnetic fields [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyzXZ_NFVrg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyzXZ_NFVrg)

</comment><comment><USER31> I don't mind to try this new one... my favourite is [http://musicforprogramming.net](http://musicforprogramming.net), all tracks are available as podcasts on iOS devices too.

<comment><USER32> I use these for coding/studying all the time. If you download all of them and put them on shuffle you basically have ~40 hours of music to jump into at any given moment.

<comment><USER33> Here is a script to download all of them : )

[https://gist.github.com/anonymous/62574c1f8161744395e4](https://gist.github.com/anonymous/62574c1f8161744395e4)

[edit] Previous gist only had 34 of the tracks, updated one has all 38.

<comment><USER31> love it :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I subscribe to [https://www.focusatwill.com/](https://www.focusatwill.com/) I would like to see a comparison of the two to understand the pros and cons of each.

<comment><USER35> Oooo..

would love for you try brain.fm vs focusatwill and hear your review!

here's '$25 for life' deal to brain.fm: [https://brain.fm/hackernews](https://brain.fm/hackernews)

junaid

cofounder, brain.fm

<comment><USER34> I've used both a few times today, but it is really hard for me to judge how "focused" I was. Did I get work done with them? Yes... but I also get work done without either of them.

I like how you have a lot of the science information on the site that explains it. Plus the sleep mode is intriguing, as F@W says it is for focus at work and reading only (via their whitepaper [https://www.focusatwill.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/04/White...](https://www.focusatwill.com/wp- firstname.lastname@example.com)).

I'd like to hear a third party opinion that objectively compares the science behind both of them.

Thanks for the discount, I'd probably keep using so I went ahead and paid the $25. Even though I have been burned a few times by the "for life" purchases, I don't expect it to last for more than 1 or 2 years ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> As the primary goal is to listen to the music, I do really appreciate the fact that the webpage stops its graphics animations when it loses the focus.

It is great to improve my focus as I am not disturbed by my waving cpu meter.

Great work, love it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a ton!

<comment><USER37> Would appreciate a checkbox so I could disable the CPU-saturating visualization without having to hide the page.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Curious about the tech/science behind this. Is it mostly binaural beats?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi there, we don't use binaural beats. Or isochronic tones.

Our CTO (Adam Hewett) is the founder of Transparent Corp. His older software is used to create the vast majority of isochronic tones, and all those videos you see on youtube, etc.

 _Any_ rhythmic audio stimulus will entrain the brain. Actually, the very first research on audio brainwave stimulation used simple clicks. As another example if you had a drummer that could be precise enough, drums could also stimulate the brain.

But, neither clicks nor binaural beats nor isochronic tones sound very good. Yes, you can get used to them. Adam used them for a decade. But he spent all of that decade finding a better way.

And what he found is that if you embed rhythmic modulations into the music in a natural way - disguising it as natural vibrations or vibrato or tremolo - not only is it more pleasant, it is _more effective_. MUCH more effective. The intensity levels we can get using this method are much higher than what we can get with older methods and still be comfortable for the user.

So in 2005 Adam created a system that could single out instruments in a recording and add natural-sounding "vibrations". He has been perfecting it ever since.

There's a lot more to Brain.fm as well! We've perfected MIT's HRTF technology to create a kind of "3D audio". And that's the real reason we suggest using headphones for the full effect of Brain.fm. It is a vital part. We spatially place sound around you to enhance your goal (for focus it is in front of you, for sleep it mimics the rocking of a hammock, cradle, etc). And then there's the algorithmic AI-generated music. Believe it or not, all the music in Brain.fm is produced by an algorithm that Adam spent a very long time.

The benefit? Imagine a rain sound for a second. Hundreds of thousands of drops! Imagine now that each and every drop is synchronized to the purpose of the stimulation. Now imagine a symphony... That is Brain.fm.

I'll have Adam hop in the thread soon so we can answer any further questions!

<comment><USER39> Can you provide evidence of the effectiveness of your methods? Are there peer reviewed studies that sustain your statements? Spot checking the site, there isn't much convincing evidence (a double blind trial with very few subjects that you sponsored is not really convincing).

<comment><USER40> As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> So, tried it and was enjoying it a lot, helped me to focus writing (finally) on a particular chapter of a book I've been dreading for some reason.

So, I get in the zone and then click! internet error. Had to refresh, and now it demands I complete a survey and register... grumble grumble. :/

Cool site though, good luck.

<comment><USER7> Sorry about that! We're under heavy load right now, and there's just a few of us :)

Registration is free though! Then you get more free sessions.

I hear we're planning on creating a longer trial program soon. But until then, I hope you'll give it another try.

For the record I don't really mind if people use it incognito, BUT it will keep giving you the same sessions over and over. So you're not getting but a fraction of the experience. We just need the survey so we can better adapt to you, and for benchmarks later on. It really doesn't take long. Also if you have an account it will adapt to you using ratings and other metrics, like if you skip a song consistently, etc.

\- Adam from Brain.fm

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Is there any real science to this? Can someone provide legitimate references? I tried this last time it was on HN. It felt like a hoax; I was less focused because the sounds were less calming than the air conditioning in the office, and because the trial repeats after about 10 minutes.

<comment><USER8> My first thought was Lumosity [1]. I'd love for these claims to be real, but I'm just not willing to believe claims like these until I see a significant result in a randomized controlled trial.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumosity#Effectiveness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumosity#Effectiveness)

<comment><USER7> We did a randomized controlled trial :)

[https://www.brain.fm/pdfs/EEGFocusAnalysis.pdf](https://www.brain.fm/pdfs/EEGFocusAnalysis.pdf)

It's pending publication, but it'll get there. And now we have enough info to start a double blind. Sleep one is also pending publication.

The HRV (stress/anxiety) trial is already published, and was completely independent. We didn't even know about it until it was published. There's more in the science section too.

I remember when that Lumosity BS came out. We'd been around for 4 years already at that point. Now that it's finally us taking off, we're pouring everything into the science. We're going to do this right.

(oh, sorry, I just realized I'd already replied to you above. I'll leave this here though, for anyone who's interested)

<comment><USER43> Hi Adam, I love that you did an RCT. What journal did this get published in?

I've been using Brain.FM since yesterday, first with speakers in another room, then with speakers in my office and separated by about 2m, and finally today with Bose noise canceling headphones (I can kind of hear the 3d effect, but it is vastly outweighed by my ears overheating in the headphones). I liked #2 the best; some tracks the 3d effect was pronounced. I tend to like the percussion tracks a lot more --- going back to the webpage to skip etc is a pain. Why not provide a list of effects that you can select from and if I hate violin (bad example) then I can exclude tracks that use it.

In the past I've used rain / thunderstorm recordings. I have a Marpac noise machine with a actual mechanical fan inside. I found that machine great for sleep - but then I had a baby and she confiscated it for her own use :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> For the productivity obsessed on HN making negative comments, I'm surprised more haven't tried this kind of stuff out.

I have used white noise or waves for a long time to drown out outdoor noise around me.

My initial start with this kind of stuff was listening to various stations on somafm.

I like finding music that fits well in the background, isn't too engaging or something I'm familiar with, and hopefully devoid of vocals so I kept looking and came across a few instrumental tracks on itunes.

There's maybe a reason babies benefit from wave/sleep machines. White noise does have an effect that can aid in focus and concentration, science, placebo, or otherwise, I'm happy for the sustained productivity boost I've been able to have for several years.

I did buy brain.fm on a whim a while back it has replaced simplynoise or more to that point. If there was a bit more information published on how it was put together I'd be interested, and if not, I'd probably keep using it.

Would like it to be a downloadable or app that I could keep with me. Some things aren't for those who can't put themselves in other people's shoes, or imagine something may work for others that doesn't seem to be imaginable or work for them.

<comment><USER37> Also would be interested in an iOS app version of this.

<comment><USER35> iOS + Android coming very soon! Internally beta testing mobile apps now.

For now! You can visit [https://brain.fm](https://brain.fm) on your phone's browser (chrome, firefox) and it will work fine :)

<comment><USER44> I didn't know I could log in from my mobile browser. Hopefully the sound works in the background, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I set this to "intense focus" and the result is almost exactly the same as the opening track to Tangerine Dream's 1983 album Hyperborea, "No Man's Land". Funnily enough, I've always found that an amazing album to listen to when in need of concentration or relaxation.

</comment><comment><USER46> I don't know why, but this makes me feel smart. Placebo++

<comment><USER47> Hey, placebo effect is good enough. The placebo effect works even if you know it's a placebo.

<comment><USER48> If you send me £30 I'll give you some of my double-strength placebo. Really powerful stuff, not available on the general market.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> 3 suggestions:

"Library Background Noise for Relaxation"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTm2oQRsISk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTm2oQRsISk)

"DISTANT TRAINS ECHOING IN THE RAIN.. Relaxing SoundScape to help Sleep, Study & Meditate"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXoxV- MFMo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXoxV-MFMo)

"One Hour of HQ Coffee Shop Background Noise"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOdLmxy06H0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOdLmxy06H0)

brain.fm is great, too!

But honestly, silence + just getting into the groove works best. Minimizing distractions is key. Unfortunately, nothing beats late nights at meeting these criteria.

<comment><USER7> Those are great!

And glad you like Brain.fm as well :)

To my great surprise, silence is actually the _worst_ performer in our research and for other researchers I've talked to. check out our focus study, and also if you hit the "more" button you can see a kind of bibliography (that we need to organize better).

Silence can be a distraction in itself. Counter-intuitive, I know. I actually think I remember an article about this popping up in my news feed recently, trying to explain why. I was in a hurry so couldn't really read it, but I'll try to find it again after all this craziness dies down :)

But anyway, everyone's different, and different situations call for different tools. When the noise level is just too high for me (like, construction outside, vacuuming, etc) I use those crazy earmuffs meant for gun ranges. A shopvac could be right next to your ear and you wouldn't notice hah

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> As someone who experiences asmr I was expecting a somewhat similar experience while listening to the 'sleep' module/mode. But I don't think this does anything for me, in fact the sound set me a bit on edge for no apparent reason.

<comment><USER51> Not me, I'm listening to the Calm -> Guide Meditation one and wow is it relaxing. Not quite getting asmr symptoms, but one average I feel quite relaxed and content. I agree on the on edge quality, for me it's subtle though and probably why I'm not getting full blown asmr bliss.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Similar service which I really like (no AI, but you can calibrate the sounds to match your hearing curve) [https://mynoise.net/](https://mynoise.net/)

</comment><comment><USER40> Brainwave entrainment is pseudoscience. The placebo effect is powerful.

<comment><USER53> Ambient sound has a tremendous capacity to alter one's mood.

Causal explanations in terms of brainwaves, etc, are invariably psuedoscience, but that does not mean that the placebo effect is the only thing going on here.

<comment><USER40> That's great, music having effects on the brain is pretty widely accepted as true ("This is your brain on music"), but claiming that playing slightly offset frequencies into different ears causes "brainwaves" to synchronize with the difference in frequencies is where a lot of people are skeptical. I've done a fair bit of dabbling in the DIY EEG realm while hacking my own sleep, so I've seen (the absence of) these effects first hand.

Now that I read their website, the authors of this new-fangled music generator are also denouncing binaural beat brainwave entrainment, which would ordinarily be the stance I'd recommend anyone take who builds such a product.

I remember BWG (Brainwave Generator), a shareware binaural beat audio synthesizer software from the 90s-00s, having "presets" for inducing such phenomena as out-of-body experiences and lucid dreams. They even extolled the weight loss and smoking cessation benefits of brainwave entrainment. That software came up every so often on the LD4ALL lucid dreaming forum.

Art Bell would be proud.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Related: [http://mtcb.pwop.com/](http://mtcb.pwop.com/)

This is by Carl Franklin of the .NET Rocks! podcast. Definitely helps me focus.

</comment><comment><USER55> Been using Brain.fm for a few months now. Incredibly boosted performance programming on my end.

<comment><USER7> That's what we like to hear :)

\- Adam from Brain.fm

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> I have to say, I tried this as something that has always piqued my interest - using sounds and music to make me a more efficient human. I was skeptical, I put it to the test while coding.

Within 10 minutes I felt a strange calm hum in my head and have now been using it for 2 hours with no sign of dropoff. Very cool, going to keep using. If this continues like it did tonight, I could see this becoming part of my daily work routine.

</comment><comment><USER57> While everyone is giving their favorites I thought I would throw mine in. Two sites -- pandora.com and coffitivity.com

On pandora -- their baroque classical station

On coffitivity -- University undertones.

You have to fiddle with the volumes a bit to get them balanced, but once you do it is a great passive sound for concentration and focus.

Also a good one that I picked up from my college roommate -- drum and bass techno. Anything with lyrics gets me thinking about the lyrics.

</comment><comment><USER58> I got intrigued by your post and I searched deeper to find tested solutions for relaxation trough music

Can anyone tell me if they tried these products: \- Schumann Meditation [https://www.mental-waves-for- happiness.com/product/secrets-o...](https://www.mental-waves-for- happiness.com/product/secrets-of-schumann-meditation-7-83-hz) \- Zen meditation music [https://www.mental-waves-for- happiness.com/product/secrets-o...](https://www.mental-waves-for- happiness.com/product/secrets-of-zen-meditation-zen-music) \- Mental Waves to overcome insomnia [https://www.mental-waves-for-happiness.com/product/how-to- ov...](https://www.mental-waves-for-happiness.com/product/how-to-overcome- insomnia)

Your advices are very appreciated.

</comment><comment><USER59> Put on intense focus and promptly fell straight to sleep at my desk.

</comment><comment><USER60> I'm sure there are huge personal differences. I have tried a lot of different sounds until now, but I cannot imagine listening to one type of sound over a period more than two weeks.

Variety works for me and keeps me happy at work which is as important as being productive alone. Productivity will not last long without happiness.

Variety works for me.

<comment><USER7> Completely agree! Did you register for an account? If you do, it'll notice which ones you've listened to before and give you more variety. Also you can go to "Explore" and pick something you want. There's techno, classical, irish, spacey-ambient, electronic-symphonic combos, bunch of different nature sounds, indian music, mongolian chants, etc... I'll be adding a lot more music soon too. :)

We definitely need to work on the barrier-to-entry that the survey creates. Sorry about that. Working on it.

\- Adam from Brain.fm

<comment><USER60> I didn't, just read about it. I will definitely give it a try when I'm back home!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> So there are already tons of apps on App Store or Play store featuring auto- generated beats for working and sleeping. Is there any clinical studies saying that this service is better than any of those? If the effects are the same, why choosing this over others?

</comment><comment><USER62> I found the intense focus music (and the "white noise"/hissing in it) to be really, really grating and kinda put me on-edge while listening.

I also found the repetitiveness/predictability of the rhythm to be troubling - I'd end up focusing on the noise and thinking about "what was coming next" to be ultra-distracting.

Kinda like when you have a noisy neighbor at night and you are just trying to get to sleep, but all you can focus on is the noise coming from your neighbor. You cant switch off - all you can do is focus on the noise.

Personally nothing beats rainymood.com for focus for me, but thanks for sharing. I guess I am different as everyone else seems to think this is effective.

<comment><USER63> Rainymood is excellent! I typically combine it with "Midnight Radio" by Bohren & Der Club of Gore - They mix perfectly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Does this music ever repeat ? I can't tell if it is a play list of previously AI generated music or continuously novel AI generated music.

I stopped listening to focusatwill.com because the repetition was too distracting even with a paid subscription.

<comment><USER44> I have been using this the past few months, there is some repetition but not enough to notice. It seems brain.fm is keeping track of what it does and doesn't play for me and asks me for feedback if I liked a track or not.

I used focusatwill for a bit too, I liked the mobile aspect of it. brain.fm captured me as a customer with a lifetime offer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> My cat is totally mesmerized by the "Intense Focus" stream. He's laying here in an absolute trance state .. haven't seen him like this.. He enjoys music a lot and often sits near the speaker and listens to music, but this stream seems to be doing something to him, because he's really tripped out :).

I also enjoy it , so you've definitely have something there.

Great stuff ! I'd really like a mac app though - maybe it's just me, but I really dislike listening to music from the browser - I like my music app to be distinct and accessible from the OS.

@Adam from Brain.fm: I could give a helping hand with the Mac app if you're interested ?

</comment><comment><USER66> Marconi union has always worked very well for me. The weightless album in particular: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKsEqFgKhoA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKsEqFgKhoA)

</comment><comment><USER67> been using this for months and enjoying it a lot while hacking. i definitely get into flow more quickly and stay in it more easily

<comment><USER44> Me as well. Some of the tracks (or rather the instruments that seem to show up regularly) are starting to build some muscle memory to at least trigger my brain to start focussing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Sometimes super down,down tempo is the way to go for working: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVnLon8TvXk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVnLon8TvXk)

</comment><comment><USER69> I listen to soma.fm groove salad while programming. ([https://somafm.com/groovesalad/](https://somafm.com/groovesalad/))

I've discovered some great artists on there. Jens Buchert for instance. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GomA...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GomAbBP9IaU)

<comment><USER70> I like beatblender or poptron depending on my mood.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Hey all! cofounder of brain.fm here.

Wowza :O

We had zero clue that we would hit front page of hn (the spike! [https://imgur.com/RpUvpiH.png](https://imgur.com/RpUvpiH.png)). Thanks for the upvote love!

Here's some deets on brain.fm:

==

MOST COMMON USE CASE -

Background music while focussing (i.e. coding, working, studying, creative work)

==

SCIENCE -

We actively study the relationship between music and the brain via our lead neuroscientist at Northwestern University (2 pilot studies via EEGs on brain.fm, on focus: [https://goo.gl/t2qPPb](https://goo.gl/t2qPPb), on sleep: [https://goo.gl/i324Zj](https://goo.gl/i324Zj)).

We're also working the with the Team USA Olympic wresting team (via coach Matt Lindland). Hoping to have the research case study live soon :)

==

REVIEWS -

"It feels like your headphones are giving you a mild dose of Ritalin."

^ Hustle ([https://goo.gl/Quzwsd](https://goo.gl/Quzwsd))

"Brain.fm has had a radical effect on my focus and mental clarity."

^ AppSumo ( __ _check out 290+ reviews_ __[https://appsumo.com/brainfm](https://appsumo.com/brainfm))

"One of the cool things about Brain.fm is that you can try it for a few minutes and immediately reap the benefits."

^ Product hunt (see: [https://producthunt.com/tech/brain- fm](https://producthunt.com/tech/brain-fm) \+ [https://goo.gl/6aYiDK](https://goo.gl/6aYiDK))

"I press play, my brain switches into super focus mode. It genuinely feels like I've taken a double-dose of my ADHD meds at times."

^ Smart girls with ADHD (see: [https://goo.gl/VQx3XT](https://goo.gl/VQx3XT))

Reddit discussion thread ^ see: [https://reddit.com/3s0sq1](https://reddit.com/3s0sq1)

==

SPECIAL OFFER :)

I'd like to share the hn community a '$25 for life' deal. (usually it's $149 for lifetime, $7 for monthly and yearly for $48). Link: [https://brain.fm/hackernews](https://brain.fm/hackernews)

==

Happy to answer any questions!

Junaid

</comment><comment><USER71> Really like the intense focus music. Seems to work really well for me. However I am not a fan of the nature based ones. The nature sounds comes of as too artificial. I might consider buying something like this, but not sure if I think a monthly subscription is worth it. Could there be a market for making an "album" with 10 generated songs in a category?

</comment><comment><USER72> Currently listening to intense focus. I've been casually looking for background music like this for a while. Thank you.

</comment><comment><USER73> The customization popup seems a bit too aggressive. The first sound I tried was cool, but I want to hear two or three different example programs before I invest any amount of time into the site. I like the concepts of generated music and brainwave entrainment, but I want to hear at least one sample from each category.

</comment><comment><USER74> I use this service for a few days and I can say that Intense Focus helped me to concentrate. Might be placebo effect, but as long as it works, I don't really care. I'll definitely use it.

Now thinking about buying sleepphones to try sleep sound. I don't have problems with sleep, but everything could be perfected.

</comment><comment><USER75> I have a background in music composition, so ANY music I listen to...no matter what, distracts me, since part of me is decomposing it.

It's taken several years, but I've conditioned myself to enter high focus mode by listening to white noise. Self conditioning is, I think, the key part for me at least.

<comment> atom-morgan I play drums. I can't listen to any music I know well otherwise I start drumming along.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> I have been using this for a couple of months to stay focused while I'm coding and it is very effective.

</comment><comment><USER77> Some awesome suggestions on here.

Also wanted to note:

[http://raining.fm](http://raining.fm)

[http://www.power85.com/](http://www.power85.com/)

[http://poolside.fm/](http://poolside.fm/)

</comment><comment><USER78> I know you probably have more important things on your roadmap about now :), but any plans to support media keys (Pause, Skip etc...)? Perhaps using something like [http://www.sway.fm/api](http://www.sway.fm/api)

</comment><comment><USER79> I like the White Noise Meditation albums. Some tracks are literally just white noise or pink noise. It is much more relaxing than it sounds! :)

[http://whitenoisemeditation.bandcamp.com/](http://whitenoisemeditation.bandcamp.com/)

</comment><comment><USER80> I'so bookmarking this thread :)

I use to listen Digitally Imported streams. It offers very fine granularity in electronic styles, like (ambient, lounge, chillout dreams, space dreams). Very nice for background music doing stuff. Also, Amethystium is very nice for relaxing.

</comment><comment><USER81> This is awesome. I was using [https://rain.simplynoise.com/](https://rain.simplynoise.com/) as a whitenoise generator, and some Spotify focus playlists.

Been using brain.fm for 1h now, and I'm loving it :) Thanks !

</comment><comment><USER82> "Those who fit into any of the above categories, _whether knowingly or not_ , should not use this application." (Emphasis mine)

Doesn't that "or not" invalidates all the disclaimer? How could they enforce that clause in a court?

</comment><comment><USER83> Would love to understand how this tool overcomes sensory gating [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_gating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_gating)

</comment><comment><USER84> I just tried this and really liked it. However the sign up process seems totally broken.

Each screen of the process asks 3 questions and seems to completely freeze up the entire browser tab (latest chrome) for about 30 seconds.

</comment><comment><USER85> Hi, Adam (ahewett).

I tried getting in touch via the website's "Contact Us" link. But apparently the form is broken due to your email server verifying DMARC records.

Please, get in touch with me via firstname.lastname@example.com.

</comment><comment><USER86> I signed up for lifetime :-) It would be cool if I can Chromecast this. (A little easier to connect headphones to my sound receiver than sleeping right next to my PC...)

</comment><comment><USER87> I like this a lot but, in my opinion, the pricing is way too high and keeps me from giving you money.

I'd buy it as a $5 app, for sure.

<comment><USER88> really? If it works for you then isn't this worth an incredible amount of money (i.e. if you can focus for longer and get more productive work out of the same hours)? If it doesn't work then its worth $0.

My guess is that they need to price it low enough not to scare ppl away, but if it works, then ppl will pay a lot.

<comment><USER87> > really? If it works for you then isn't this worth an incredible amount of > money

No.

> If it doesn't work then its worth $0.

No, it's worth about $5 to me.

I was providing _my perspective_ as a would-be customer interested in the product, nothing more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> Any promo codes for Hacker News denizens? :-)

<comment><USER35> yes! here's a '$25 for life' deal:

[https://brain.fm/hackernews](https://brain.fm/hackernews)

:)

junaid

cofounder, brain.fm

<comment><USER90> Hey, on clicking on the link it takes to the home page and nothing happens, am I missing something here?

<comment><USER91> Click through the Listen link and the pricing is applied when you get to that stage

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER92> I've been using music for years to improve my focus, relaxation, sleep, happyness, sadness, social relations and many more. Music make us feel things, we all know that. For me it's out of question that it can make you better, speaking broadly.

Now, having brain.fm picking the music so I can feel X seems like a step backwards. I already can do that but much better just using the wonderful universe of existing recorded music.

I don't see the value for me here.

</comment><comment><USER93> Mozart's music sounds like AI generated. Not sure about the focus/relax/sleep parts though.

</comment><comment><USER94> This might sound hilarious, but I've always used Frank Ocean's Channel Orange as coding music.

</comment><comment><USER95> Makes rather tired than focused

</comment><comment> bad-joke Just curious: why is this program not recommended for people using a pacemaker?

</comment><comment><USER96> AI generated "music" to improve focus, relaxation and sleep

there, fixed that for you

<comment><USER97> How do you define music, then?

</comment></comment><comment><USER98> I dig it. I'm creating an SSB pinned to my menubar for this right now.

</comment><comment><USER99> My name is Giovanni Santostasi. I have a PhD in Physics and I work in the field of neuroscience of sleep at Northwestern University, in particular I'm interested in slow wave sleep. I'm also the leading neuroscientist at brain.fm. Slow wave sleep is the deepest stage of sleep and it is fundamental for learning and cognition (and several other physiological functions like getting rid of toxins in the brain, metabolism and hormonal regulation). Slow wave sleep is one of the most regular rhythmic brain state. It is easy to recognize using an EEG system because it produces very regular bursts of large amplitude and relatively slow oscillations, called slow waves (with a frequency of about 1 Hz). This is one of the most active fields in neuroscience right now. Many experiments in labs around the world have shown that the amplitude of these oscillations are strongly correlated with learning activity during the day. Also performance on cognitive tasks in particular related to memory are strongly correlated with the amplitude of the slow waves. Scientists tried to understand if slow waves were just an epiphenomenon, i.e. if they were the indicators of a fundamental physiological principle or they had a causative role, i.e. if by generating slow waves the brain caused physiological changes that helped the process of memory consolidation in the brain (making memory long stable over long term). Therefore in the last 10 years scientists tried to modify the slow waves using external stimulation. The used initially transcranial direct current stimulation tDCs and obtain amazing results. By creating currents that oscillated at a frequency close to the typical frequency of slow waves (about 1 Hz) they were able to enhance the amplitude of the waves. What was even more amazing that the enhancement in amplitude changed the memory performance of the study participants in a standard memory tests relatively to a sham condition. The change were not just statistical significant but quite dramatic (they enhanced by 20-30 percent the natural benefit in memory due to sleep alone). The results were published in Nature, the most prestigious science journal. In our lab we reproduced and in fact improved these results using acoustic stimulation (using short burst of pink noise synchronized with the brain oscillations during sleep). This and many other experiments repeated in many labs around the world show clearly that the relationship between mental states and brain rhythms is bidirectional, brain states create brain rhythms, but brain rhythms bring the brain to particular brain states. The field of brain stimulation is relatively new in neuroscience as a very active, promising and in fact revolutionary area of research. Sleep is just one area but people are exploring using rhythmic brain stimulation how to increase attention, information processing, improve mood and cognition in older people, helping with ADD. It is unfortunate that in the last decades the idea of using brain waves to enhance brain function has been appropriated by charlatans and new agers. But right now brain rhythms are making a huge come back as a legit scientific study that is bringing break throughs almost on a daily basis. At brain.fm we are simply using the knowledge of this new field of science to improve people well being. We are moving the knowledge from the lab to people daily life. We are not claiming to have a magical tool to enhance focus, attention, sleep. We are doing what good scientists do. Experimenting, trying different things and using the scientific method and an evidence based approach to determine what works and what doesn't work. I believe we are doing much better than most companies in the industry of neuroscience commercial applications because we are focused on testing with scientific means our technology and prove ourselves wrong before we make any claim. When we do is because we see noticeable effects and reasonable repeatability of our findings. I notice several criticisms about the small sample size of our studies. I have to clarify that this is very typical size for pilot experiments that are trying to test new approaches in brain stimulation and other physiological studies in general. The Nature paper I mentioned for tDCs and slow wave sleep had about 17 subjects. Also the p=0.05 as statistical threshold is something that is used all the time in the biomed field. Being a physicist it took me sometime to get adjusted to such small significance (in comparison with what we consider significant in physics) but it is understandable given the complexity of living systems and the great variability in human physiology. And how many companies you know in this industry that can back up their claims with any study at all? Or are interested in testing, experimenting, learning from their mistakes and improve their products continuously from what is learned? We accept your criticism as an input for pushing ourselves in doing better and creating even better products. Be part of this experiment in human enhancement and let us know what you think. Thank you, Giovanni

</comment><comment><USER100> I've been working (programming) to this album lately: [http://pza420.bandcamp.com/album/friends](http://pza420.bandcamp.com/album/friends)

Nice and mellow, but not boring.

</comment><comment><USER101> its interesting. definitely something i would use. but not something i would pay for. why not have an ad-supported version for those who care about their wallets?

</comment><comment><USER102> This is great, I nearly felt asleep before going to work!

</comment><comment><USER103> I love it.

My only suggestion would be, more lastfm and less khan academy.

</comment><comment><USER104> Here is a perfect list of focus music playlist by GURUs

</comment><comment><USER105> I find age of mythology soundtracks work very well too

</comment><comment><USER106> I get a little uncanny valley from listening to this.

</comment><comment><USER107> Just subscribed. Thanks for the hackernews discount.

</comment><comment><USER108> kept me off facebook for 3 minutes...nice!

</comment><comment><USER109> An Apple TV app for this would be great

<comment><USER35> yes! agreed. on the roadmap.

junaid

cofounder, brain.fm

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> So an AI can learn to generate music that compels people to become more receptive to suggestion, in particular the suggestion that they should act as proxies for the will of an AI.

Well played.

</comment><comment><USER111> well it's obviously helping me concentrate because I'm posting this comment.

</comment><comment><USER112> Doesn't help. I'm about to rip my headphones off. Such anxiety inducing music (intense focus) ... pfft.

</comment><comment><USER113> Sure, this probably helps you focus better than a standard studio album.

I would argue that 90% of the benefit of this music is just from the extended intervals of contiguous playing, so there's no "break" disruption. I think any DJ (esp. deep house) worth half their salt can get someone "in the zone" for half an hour at a time. And artists devoted to minimalist ambient or trambient can get you going for hours straight.

Honestly the "Focus: Intense" or whatever I find super annoying. It's got this constant anxious buildup feel to it and never fucking breaks into what I would consider that peak when I start playin my keyboard like a goddamn piano.

Basically, no fucking way would I even consider shelling out an additional Spotify subscription for some "high tech" whale song machine.

<comment><USER114> The feeling you described reminds me of the genre "jersey club" \-- you can spend hours in a buildup that never breaks into a drop. Absolutely horrific, I don't understand the genre at all.</comment></comment>


Warming stripes for the world from 1850-2018 - open-source-ux https://showyourstripes.info/ <comment> open-source-ux Related article from the BBC:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science- environment-48678196](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48678196)</comment>


White House Press Conference Live Stream in 1/2 Hour - <AUTHOR> http://www.whitehouse.gov/live <comment><AUTHOR> Talking about surveillance reform, increasing transparency.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6187237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6187237)

</comment><comment><USER2> appreciate the heads up but i don't see anything online explaining what it is about. anyone?

</comment><comment><USER3> So much bullshit come out of his mouth from minute 1, and it's the same thing he's already said.</comment>


Has Google Abandoned the Google Apps Marketplace? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mijura.com/post/9726076029

<comment><USER2> Why are you asking? Google has announced that they will terminate a few services but I didn´t see anything related to the Goole Apps Marketplace. Have you got any information?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yea I saw that list, I was asking because we're trying to list our app and haven't received any response from their support email, google group or official blog. They seem a bit under resourced or neglected.</comment></comment>


Google's reCAPTCHA briefly cracked - <AUTHOR> http://www.h-online.com/security/news/item/Google-s-reCAPTCHA-briefly-cracked-1586689.html

<comment> jack-r-abbit I always assumed that when given the option to hear the CAPTCHA it was going to just read me the muddled words I see. Using just 58 different spoken words doesn't seem anywhere near as secure as the text images... which I guess is why it was cracked.

<comment><USER2> The idea behind reCAPTCHA is that it occasionally throws in a word (or street sign, or occasional fragment of total garbage) that it doesn't know. Hence, not really possible to just text-to-speech the visual part of the captcha to generate an audio one, as often the visual captcha contains an unknown.

However, if they're sampling radio programs to use as background noise, reCAPTCHA could become a learning tool for radio programs as well.

A reliable algorithm for splitting a source stream into high-probability individual-word portions would need to be devised - then, just like the visual version, combine one known word and one unknown word, combine with the background distortion, and this brand of attack is essentially defeated.

I suspect that spoken-word digitization is at least a potential future plan, although I also suspect the audio version of captchas are requested infrequently enough that learning new words might take a long time.

<comment><USER3> > The idea behind reCAPTCHA is that it occasionally throws in a word (or > street sign, or occasional fragment of total garbage) that it doesn't know.

Yes, but you don't have to input those. Try it for yourself and see. (I _never_ input them.)

When you do input them, it helps Google digitize books, street numbers, etc.-- sort of like a "Mechanical Turk"--but it's completely optional. So you could devise a text-to-speech algorithm, but only for the word Google's CAPTCHA actually knows. (It's probably in the works as we speak.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I find it always amusing that stuff gets "cracked for a moment". You know, as if the vulnerability wasn't there before, then popped up and boom fixed!

No. The reality is: the vulnerability has been _public_ for a brief moment. And that's true for all the software in the world. Sometimes really good exploits stay secret for years and years. Sometimes (often?) they get fixed by a side effect before even going public, after a year or two.

So not. You're not secure.

</comment><comment><USER5> Very impressive stuff. For what it's worth, I played around with the new audio reCAPTCHA a bit.

        - I heard 50+ distinct words, plus the numbers 1-9
        - Numbers are not written out anymore (e.g. "nine" does not work, it must be "9")
        - You must get 9 out of 10 words correct to complete the CAPTCHA

So they're still working with a very small dictionary of words, and with a little practice it's not hard to nail these consistently (as a human). The extra noise makes it a little more difficult to split the samples, but that's a solvable problem. I bet they can re-break it with their existing program and not too much additional effort to retrain the system.

</comment><comment><USER6> This is just another example that image CAPTCHA's are a weak spam deterrent and they are great example of dark UI patterns.

The benefits of using this kind of system are shrouded in the user's cost.

<comment> jack-r-abbit I won't argue that the benefits are at the user's cost since I pretty much always have to request a new set of images as the ones I get tend to be so distorted I can't make out a letter.

But how is _this_ (cracking _audio_ CAPTCHA) an example of how _image_ CAPTCHA is a weak spam deterrent? I don't see the connection.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> What happens if you train a neural network too much?

<comment><USER8> There is always the tank story/myth <http://neil.fraser.name/writing/tank/>. Of course, that is more about how a neural network might not be training itself in the way you expect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I think it's impressive that an algorithm can crack the CAPTCHAs. I get them wrong most of the time.

<comment><USER4> We get to a point where programs actually sometimes guess it right more often than the user. I do get recaptcha wrong about 50% of the time and I guess I'm not the only one.

It's sad that I'm not exaggerating. I get the captcha on YT everyday because apparently my subnet attacks YT a lot.

Now, It's not Google's fault, but the whole captcha thing is getting more and more broken.

<comment> jack-r-abbit I don't usually get it wrong.. but that is because I usually request new images if I'm not pretty sure I have it right. Sometimes the distortion is absolutely ridiculous.</comment></comment></comment>


First Quantum Computer With Quantum CPU And Separate Quantum RAM - <AUTHOR> http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27183/

<comment><USER2> Linkbait.....post... Exaggerated title designed to make people click.. damn, i don't have downvote privileges.

<comment><USER3> No one can downvote stories. You can only flag them, which isn't really the same thing.

<comment><USER2> Oh.. i had no idea, I just assumed a model similar to stackexchange. I would be surprised if that has not been proposed/discussed yet.

<comment><USER3> At the bottom of the page, you can see a "Feature Requests" link that goes to <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=363> but almost none of the requested features have ever been implemented.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Also there -> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3007817> (an article from spectrum.ieee.org) with some more details.

</comment><comment><USER5> Does it mean "there will be one qc computer on everyone's desk" in several decades?

<comment><USER6> You mean like this: <http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u94712/corequu_0.png>

No.</comment></comment>


Can't solve a quintic? Galois Theory in 1500 words - <AUTHOR> http://www.lisazhang.ca/2011/12/galois-theory-in-1500-words.html <comment><USER2> The background story of Évariste Galois is phenomenal. He was expelled from school twice, fought in a revolutionary unit, was imprisoned for threatening the life of the king and revolutionised mathematics forever. He died in a duel over a woman at the age of 20! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Évariste_Galois>

Imagine what he would have done if he had lived to 40? There were some really fascinating characters in the mathematics in the 19th century. A very far stretch from the world's stereotypes of a repressed, bespectacled geek or the boring image of mathematics given by high school classes.

<comment><USER3> > _Imagine what he would have done if he had lived to 40?_

Sorry, can't. Marriage alone is a major productivity killer, then there are also kids and general life problems. There was a study that basically built a histogram of mathematicians' (?) productivity vs age. The peak was around 25 years old, followed by a very steep decline.

<comment><USER4> _Marriage alone is a major productivity killer, then there are also kids and general life problems._

Leonhard Euler managed to be a productive mathematician for decades.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonhard_Euler>

He had children and grandchildren, and that didn't stop him from working on mathematics even in their presence. Blindness didn't stop him either.

<comment><USER3> Sure, but that's a sample of one.

<comment><USER5> The "rock stars" of mathematics are all mostly romanticized youth, but its bedrock is mostly gray-matter tucked under grayer hair.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Pro-tip for self-taught mathos: It's pronounced "Gal-wah theory". Also, "Lee groups", "Paul Erdish", "Kurt Gurdle", "Leonhard 'Oiler'", etc.

<comment><USER6> Don't forget Lebayg integration.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I was learning Galois Theory, I found Keith Conrad's notes really helpful for understanding the details -- <http://www.math.uconn.edu/~kconrad/blurbs/>. The subject of this post is mostly covered by the paper titled "Galois correspondence" (For anyone whose interests were piqued by this post.)

</comment><comment><USER8> Mark Kac and Stanislaw Ulam explained these concepts pretty intuitively in their beautiful book Mathematics and Logic. But, who was the first person who thought that mathematics could be explained without diagrams? Or equations?

Edit: In particular they showed on pages 58-60, without using jargon, how the idea of permutations leads to Cardano's formulas for the cubic.

<comment><USER9> Thanks!

For reference: [http://www.amazon.com/reader/0486670856?_encoding=UTF8&q...](http://www.amazon.com/reader/0486670856?_encoding=UTF8&query=cardano#reader_0486670856)

Search for "Consider the cubic"

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Does anyone have any insight into _how_ Galois made the mental leap to his solution? Everything I've read says (or implies) that his solution came completely out of left-field--i.e. it wasn't really related to anything that had come before him.

And along those lines, does anyone know of an English translation of Galois' paper?

<comment><USER11> Samuel Johnson: ''Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging'' Or in Galois case a duel.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I recently started reading now algebra book with a goal of understanding the Galois theoretical proof of his understanding unsolvability of the Quintic. This is generally considered the capstone of a complete 2-semester undergraduate study of algebra for a math major who is not pursuing graduate level pure math.

The interesting part IMO is the analysis of those normal subgroup chains and understanding the isomorphism to splitting fields.

Definitions and theorems without proofs or examples or illustrations is like the box without the gift inside. That post built up a pile of terminology but then ended before showing any content. It shows where to look out find the solutions at least.

</comment><comment><USER13> Nice text, but _"This is a very limited set of operations, and certainly not all real numbers can be written this way -- π clearly can't be written this way."_ caught my attention. I know it is true, if that is 'clear', one can just as well claim "clearly, quintics cannot be solved" and be done with it.

<comment> eric-hu yes. The proof that pi is transcendental is hardly trivial. This was one of the three major milestones for my Galois Theory class.

Even proving that it's irrational is nontrivial

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Just remember: the Galois extension of a Galois extension is not necessarily Galois.

(Never took number theory myself, but that was the one thing I learned from those who did.)</comment>


Ask HN: How would you use technology to stop an armyworm outbreak? - <AUTHOR> Looking for ideas. There's an outbreak in Africa and farmers could lose up to 50% of their produce. This will lead to an acute food shortage.<p>CRISPR related ideas are welcome too. <comment><USER2> Wikipedia link for the lazy [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_armyworm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_armyworm)

</comment><comment><USER3> The obvious thing to do:

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYBamOW7YFc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MYBamOW7YFc)

Good luck with that.</comment>


The Internet of Things That Talk About You Behind Your Back - <AUTHOR> http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-internet-of-things-that-talk-about-you-behind-your-back <comment><USER2> I have a home automation system that only has one route to talk to the outside world: A serial connection to my computer. I control the devices in my home automation system with code written in Visual Basic .NET (Yes, I know.)

My home automation system doesn't spy on me. Any device I add to my system must be able to be controlled by some Visual Basic .NET code, locally. No API services welcome.

</comment><comment><USER3> This anthropomorphising is a good way to deliver the message:

The devices and applications are not any more simple tools, like a hammer or axe, that we operate - they are more controlled remotely by their creators then by their users.</comment>


Concern grows over GCHQ Prism spying allegations - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22813893

<comment><USER2> Fascinating. I'm amazed that people aren't pointing out the consequences to the USA of _GCHQ had access to data covertly gathered from leading internet firms in the US._

Under US law, US investigators are not allowed to follow trails into this data that go to US citizens without a warrant. According to leaked training materials, they follow that rule. This is part of why they claim that this data collection is not an issue for Americans.

But if the data is shared with other intelligence services, who CAN legally follow those trails, then that's a pretty serious loophole. I'm reminded of the early Bush policy of turning over prisoners of interest to police in non- US jails where torture could be used and then the resulting intelligence reports shared back with the US.

Also the American investigators are told to report all times that they followed a trail to a US citizen. Were those trails shared as well? If so, then it gets worse still.

<comment><USER3> FWIW, under both English and Scots law evidence gathered by such means cannot be used in a court of law; though, certainly, it can be used by police (and often has been in NI to great success) as a means to observe crimes being planned (where you don't have evidence to prosecute, typically for conspiracy to murder in the NI case) and then have police ready to act to thwart the crime (thus the number of IRA bombers caught on their bomb run, at police checkpoints set up at the last minute).

<comment><USER2> But can such evidence be used to establish the grounds for a warrant?

That is a common trick in the USA. Data obtained in ways that would not be admissible in court can be used to get a warrant, and then data collected under the warrant can be used in court.

<comment><USER3> Grounds for a warrant is a matter for a court, and as it cannot be presented in court, no.

The typical behaviour in the days of IRA activity was that an attack being planned would be discovered through espionage (be it wiretaps, double agents, etc.) but no action would be taken (though several crimes have already been committed: membership of a terrorist organisation, conspiracy to murder, and often various other more minor offences) until they had the bomb with them, on their way to the attack, as until that point they didn't have evidence they could use in court. Typically a road block was set up, quickly (the bomb was normally transported by two cars, about a mile apart, the first one there to spot any police to abort it, so the roadblock could only be set up after this had past), by police and army. Obviously this relies on the people wanting to get out alive (I.e., not willing to blow it up with themselves in hope of getting arresting officer), but while they'd often put up a fight, they normally knew when it was over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Given this is being driven by Keith Vaz a well known and documented politician of debatable integrity (corruption, bribes, lies etc) then I wonder why this is being driven.

This is after all knee-jerk news or FOTM too some. No new evidence has been presented, no insight and yet more Britons personal details are violated by the hollywood law changes that the goverment has instigated.

It is not new that the UK and USA are buddies, we share data, we don't like criminals and like to catch them, nothing changed there.

Heck given BBC has a department called BBC monitoring that is located in a secure building and who's job is to monitor all the news Worldwide and on the floor above is a office run by a USA agency, then if anything one could question anything the BBC says.

Like most, I'm more shocked at the rabble rabble, OMG I had no idea this was happening mentality of many than I am about this old cold-war legacy exchange of information comming to light, albiet no new evididence has actualy come to light and it is just Mr Vaz jumping on another bandwaggon for personal gains.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz) Would you trust him

<comment><USER5> Oh, so now we play the man and not the ball?

Is this:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and- order/1010650...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and- order/10106507/GCHQ-has-been-accessing-intelligence-through-internet- firms.html)

non BBC, non leftie source good enough for you?

<comment><USER4> WHAT!

Please don't like sites that make AV flash up red with warnings (probably some hijacked advert).

Also lacks details about context of said reports, proof said reports happened and again, general says nothing. As said before UK and USA work together, nothing new there, 197 seems rather low and when not measured against results is futile in discussing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What astonishes me about PRISM is the motive behind it. It appears the purpose of PRISM is to keep the government and it's politicians in operation only. It has nothing to do with protecting the citizens of the United States or otherwise.

For instance: if we presume PRISM is as omnipotent as described, and I do believe it is as sinister as it was chronicled. One has to ask this: if the "purpose" is to "protect" American/British citizens from harm then imagine how many child molesters, child pornographers, cartel bosses, under-ground arms dealers, etc. etc. are tacitly allowed to do business.

In other words their raison d'etre "to protect us" is bullshit for more people are harmed from all of the above or even in car accidents then from the sinister people they want to "protect us" from.

Perhaps they want to "protect themselves" from we the citizens?</comment>


Crystal 0.24.1 released - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/crystal-lang/crystal/releases/tag/v0.24.1 <comment><USER2> I really like initiatives like Crystal and Nim, in that they appeal to users of popular languages like Ruby and Python yet are much faster.

But I fear that the problem they solve isn't big enough. For desktop/mobile apps, they need a UI framework so I suppose they're targeted at web or network/system programming mostly. However, "Faster Ruby" or "Faster Python" is, in practice, solved by faster hardware as well. At the same time, for web apps to truly scale you need more than just a constant factor increase in speed - you need to handle parallelism better. This is what Go and Erlang/Elixir do with green threads, or Rust with its borrow checker.

This is why I've been surprised that a well thought out and polished initiative like Crystal doesn't do anything in this area, and makes me fear that its popularity might not last. Nim was all over HN a few years ago and now not seen that much anymore - Crystal is obviously different from Nim but they tackle many of the same problems in similar enough ways.

I fear/hope that, because of this, languages like Pony[0] will stick around longer - it seems to combine the best ideas from Crystal, Erlang and Rust in an ergonomic way.

[0] [https://playground.ponylang.org/](https://playground.ponylang.org/)

<comment><USER3> Disclaimer: I'm a core Nim dev.

To be honest I am unsure what Pony provides that Nim doesn't. Perhaps I just haven't looked closely enough at it.

One thing I do know is that from my years of using Nim I never had any trouble with parallelism. There are no green threads, but there is a solid thread pool implementation[1] and a mechanism that ensures memory isn't shared between threads without a lock or a channel (GC safety)[2].

Maybe you could give me a TL;DR of what Pony does better? :)

1 - [https://nim-lang.org/docs/threadpool.html](https://nim- lang.org/docs/threadpool.html)

2 - [https://nim-lang.org/docs/manual.html#threads-gc-safety](https://nim- lang.org/docs/manual.html#threads-gc-safety)

<comment><USER4> Pony has an Actor as a language-level concept, which significantly reduces the amount of "thinking about mechanism" that a programmer needs to do to build safe, highly-concurrent programs.

Quick read: [https://tutorial.ponylang.org/types/actors.html](https://tutorial.ponylang.org/types/actors.html)

I think one could implement a similar system in Nim using the primitives that you posted, plus some kind of channel, but:

1\. Such a system is not included in the standard library (?)

2\. Even if a package containing such a system outside the stdlib were available, it would not receive the same application and usage by the Nim community, as Pony actors will in the Pony community

3\. So, Pony is better suited to foster a community for highly concurrent programming

<comment><USER5> Does an actor system need to be part of the language? In the Scala world, there's the akka library to provide actors (but of course you could use a totally different actor system instead). Alternatively in Elixir, actors (Processes) with their send/receive functionality is built into the language and each module can essentially be an actor.

I guess the trade off is that if it's a part of the language, you get it standard and built in as a language construct. But if it's in an external library, you can use different actor systems and benchmark them accordingly.

<comment><USER6> one benefit is that you can effectively embed the concept directly into the type system, allowing for ergonomic expression of actor model code. i'm not sure to what extent pony does this, though i believe it's capability typing was designed with actors in mind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Crystal stacks up pretty nicely in our crowd-sourced feature table, for statically compiled languages:

[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BAiJR026ih1U8HoRw__n...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BAiJR026ih1U8HoRw__nzbCSFnnHicWrjxpW5l6-O3w/edit#gid=0)

... providing light-weight threads, and possibly going to support M:N coroutine:thread multiplexing(?). Let's hope.

</comment><comment><USER8> Crystal is a programming language. [https://crystal- lang.org/](https://crystal-lang.org/) Crystal's syntax is heavily inspired by Ruby's, so it feels natural to read and easy to write, and has the added benefit of a lower learning curve for experienced Ruby devs.

</comment><comment><USER9> I feel like Crystal has been alpha for 4 years.

<comment><USER10> That may be, but it's really quite stable for pre-1.0. I have Crystal apps running in production without problems and great success. I'd say, in some scenarios, Crystal is more stable in alpha than some post-alpha language releases I've worked with in the past.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think Crystal follows the Ruby path too tightly. Ruby also never found its place in the UI framework world. The popularity of web apps during the rise of current rich interfaces and the boom of SaaS consumer products didn't give Ruby and reason for its contributor base to expand successfully. Times have changed again and we are back to being interested in standalone apps. I really like Crystal and hope some of the UI focused community from Rust will bleed over.

</comment><comment><USER12> Great to see progress, and exciting news on the possibility of swapping the GC. Thank you to all maintainers and contributors, here's to a big multi- threaded 2018! :)</comment>