The next generation of wall chargers - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/1/30/18203879/gan-chargers-anker-powerport-atom-pd-1-ravpower-45w <comment><USER2> Not seeing UL or CSA approval numbers on those.

That's important for switching power supplies, especially small ones. A switching power supply is always a few milliseconds from being a short circuit across the input. And FETs fail in the ON state. That's why those things are inherently fire risks and need protection circuitry. Really tiny ones make it worse; if they fail, there's not much space to dissipate heat before something blows and opens the circuit.

<comment><USER3> Gosh that's odd; Ravpower has a blog post about UL certification's importance ( [https://blog.ravpower.com/2018/04/usb-charger-safety- certifi...](https://blog.ravpower.com/2018/04/usb-charger-safety- certifications-recalls/) ) but you're right, their RP-PC104 45W GaN USB-C wall charger and its manual don't list UL certification information ( [https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0257/5656/5579/files/RP- PC...](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0257/5656/5579/files/RP- PC104_User_Manual.pdf?23087) , [https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp- pc104-45w-pd-wall-charg...](https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp-pc104-45w-pd- wall-charger) ).

<comment><USER4> I've had the slim 45W RavPower one since June and it's great. It's almost startling how small it is. I much prefer it in the bag for coffee shop trips, etc. I use it with my 15" MBP and I haven't seen any power issues with plenty of Chrome tabs and InDesign/Photoshop running. I usually have the extension cord on the 87W one at home—it's so nice not to have to lug that whole assembly or look for the smaller attachment.

<comment><USER5> I mean, when it works it will work. When it fails ... you'll be depending on the protection circuitry in your laptop. If it goes catastrophic/worst-case, your laptop might be exposed to mains power.

<comment><USER6> Yes, that is the worst case. Almost. But object effected can be something more disconcerting:

[https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/pa5mng/a-16-year-old- has-...](https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/pa5mng/a-16-year-old-has-died- after-being-electrocuted-by-his-headphones)

One time it happened in Australia, who investigated the cause thoroughly:

> We know absolutely that the charger itself failed, and that it arced between > the 240 volt input and the five volt output. So that's definitive," said > Lynelle Collins of NSW Fair Trading. "We've got photos, we've got proof > that's been dismantled, so we know that the charger failed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I got a new laptop this summer I researched what chargers were out there, as I was fed up with carrying the normal assortment of cables and chargers. I settled for another GaN charger - the Innergie Powergear 60c[0] which is a very decent size for 60w and not having a mains lead built into it (still very common on non-mac chargers) makes it a lot more compact.

I travel a lot, often with more than one laptop, so now I'm very happy I can charge all my electronics with this one charger and also with the changeable country tips it's more compact than a travel adaptor.

The only downside I've had with it is the US power tip got bent the first time I used it - I contacted Innergie to see if I could get a replacement, but they never got back to me.

[0] [http://www.myinnergie.com/sg/product/136](http://www.myinnergie.com/sg/product/136)

<comment><USER8> I've got the same one, very pricey, but amazing to travel with compared to the giant macbook charger. It's only 60W but charges almost as fast as the 87W one for 15" macbooks. It's also really nice to be able to charge all my travel gadgets with one small charger, reducing the number of cables and chargers I have to carry.

I'm hoping that giant power bricks and those adapters that power via barrel plugs will disappear soon, as I find them to be unwieldy and dirt magnets. Computer monitors are most guilty of having some of the biggest power bricks, and I'd love to see them replaced with regular power cables (the ones that plug into desktop computers), or the monitor be powered over usb-c so any regular 100W usb-c adapter can power them.

<comment><USER9> > Computer monitors are most guilty of having some of the biggest power > bricks, and I'd love to see them replaced with regular power cables

Dell Monitors have a single power cable (for example this P2418D [1]). Many other manufacturers ship giant power bricks because it allows them to make the screen thinner, and nobody sees the power brick under the table. It comes down to customer preference.

1: [https://snpi.dell.com/snp/images/products/large/210-AMUH- mvi...](https://snpi.dell.com/snp/images/products/large/210-AMUH-mvi5.jpg)

<comment><USER10> I'm fine with a brick for heat dissipation, I just wish OEM bricks came with a label saying which device they're for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I love how no one is talking about how this article is from January of this year... Anker has a newer version that is even smaller now. It may only be 18W and rated for phones, but it matches the size of the original 5W Apple charger. [https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07WRKXQ8W](https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07WRKXQ8W)

</comment><comment><USER12> For Brits and visitors to our shores there's [https://www.themu.co.uk/collections/muone](https://www.themu.co.uk/collections/muone) and [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/muone/mu-two-next- gener...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/muone/mu-two-next- generation-63w-dual-usb-type-c-wall-charger)

<comment><USER13> The Anker box mentioned is £20 on Amazon.co.uk

<comment><USER12> I mentioned the Mu because it has a folding UK plug. Small chargers lose much of their smallness when using a standard UK plug.

<comment><USER14> I've had an older Mu for some time for travelling. There are much cheaper copies, and alternative designs, these days* but I can't vouch for their quality as I've never used them. The Mu seems well-built and after many uses still feels solid.

[*] [https://idaffodil.co.uk/products/slim-foldable-usb- charger-a...](https://idaffodil.co.uk/products/slim-foldable-usb-charger- august-umc301-1-port-for-iphone-ipad-and- android?variant=22651793997888&currency=GBP) to pick one at random from a quick search, or [https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VDJLD1Q/](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07VDJLD1Q/) for C-type though that is only 15W not 45W like the Mu C-type models.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> One of my minor goals for 2020 is to switch all the gear I carry around to being USB-C PD. I've been doing some research on the subject, so just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in (some of this stuff mentioned in other comments).

There's a pretty good site, [https://www.chargerlab.com/](https://www.chargerlab.com/) (see also: [https://twitter.com/chargerlab](https://twitter.com/chargerlab) ) that's dedicated to reviewing charging peripherals.

I started off the year with an Innergie 60C, which has worked great for everything I've thrown at it and is tiny (55mL volume, 88g, 60W USB-C PD). It was on-sale recently, but even at full price has been worth it for me. (Although the newer RavPower PD Pioneer 61W is a good alternative that's almost as small and 1/3 the price.)

I'm looking forward to adding the upcoming Sanho HyperJuice 100W charger (about twice the size, but a bunch more ports) [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/hyperjuice- wo...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/hyperjuice-worlds-first- and-smallest-100w-gan-charger)

Instead of the Anker PD1 18W, for a small charger, I use the Anker PIQ 30W - it's very slim, which actually makes it much easier to carry around. Also, the IMO folding plugs (and extra juice) are definitely worth the extra volume.

Recently, for my Mavic Pro 2, I just got a cheap Cablcc USB-C to Plug Receptacle Charger cable and a RCGEEK car charger that seems to work well as a nice 2-in-1 (it only saves a tiny bit of volume and weight over the wall charging but it also provides car charging).

Also, although I'm unsure of how often I'll need it, I got a 100Wh Zendure Super Tank power bank (which provides USB-C PD 100W charging), since it was discounted heavily for Black Friday (it was only $100 on sale vs $200+ for other similar options).

Also, I travel internationally a lot, and the MOGICS Donut has been my go-to combination power strip and adapter - it's the best/most compact device I've found (and has 2 USB-A chargers built in to handly legacy devices). [https://www.mogics.com/3824-2](https://www.mogics.com/3824-2)

<comment><USER16> I have a bunch of USB-C devices - two laptops, a Switch, a phone, and a pair of headphones. The only one that I regularly charge from a USB-C PD port is the larger laptop. The rest do just fine with USB-A to USB-C cables from a four-port (one PD plus three USB-A) adapter. _Occasionally_ I'll pull out my Atom and corresponding cable to charge another one of those devices more quickly, but that's actually pretty rare and I never need more PD ports than that. Never, and I travel more than most. I wish more people knew that A-to-C cables are a totally sufficient, cheaper, and more compact alternative for many devices.

<comment><USER14> Of course, it depends how much juice your A-ports can provide and how fussy you are about things charging as fast as they can. If most of your A ports provide no more than 1-or-2 amps, maybe 3, at 5V then most (all?) devices that charge via USB-C will charge slower than they could. That won't realistically matter at all for refreshing a phone overnight, or even a chunky laptop, but it'll still matters to some.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> And then there's this thing which is smaller than either and 60W

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GBYVF4Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Fu...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GBYVF4Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Fud5Db6TJ9ZD9)

<comment><USER18> I recommend the RavPower 61W GaN over Innergie. The Innergie is smaller, but it is 3x the cost and, in my experience, less reliable and less ergonomic.

I purchased the Innergie after a previous travel charger failed. Loved it at first, but started experiencing issues pretty quickly. The first issue I encountered was that the plug would fold in frequently while I was trying to plug into outlet. Over the course of a couple months, I started seeing more issues with the reliability of the charger as well. It never completely failed, but I would often have to play around with reversing the cable and the direction of the outlet side usb-c in order to get charging to start. This was a bit concerning to me given that complaint USB-C cables are completely bi- directional.

<comment><USER19> Anyone have a good recommendation for a wall charger similar to RavPower mentioned in parent comment but with EU plug?

Additionally, is there a good charger with EU plug that I can use to charge both my MacBook Air 2018 (USB-C) and my iPhone X with at the same time?

<comment><USER20> The Mu One 45W charger comes with UK, EU and US interchangeable plugs. [https://www.themu.co.uk/collections/muone](https://www.themu.co.uk/collections/muone)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I asked a year ago When could we expect GaN to be more widely available and it seems the answer is still true as of today.

GaN mosfet costs 10x more [1] than a silicon one of similar power rating. And the multiples gets wider at 15x for 1K units.

I doubt we will see Apple include a GaN charger as default for quite some time.

[1]: IPAW60R380CEXKSA1 (silicon) costs $1.26, IGT60R190D1SATMA1 (GaN) costs $13.

<comment><USER22> I just got a new 16" MacBook Pro and the power brick is 96W, but the same size as the 60W from a few years ago. I'd say this is likely a GaN unit, but I don't have any proof of that.

<comment><USER23> Lots of people have opened them up already; it's not GaN.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Ironically, the best USB-C charger for something like a phone (laptops come with chargers, anyway) I've found is simply the Raspberry Pi 4 USB-C charger - very cheap ($10), small, plenty power (15W), fixed cable and no fucking blue Anker LED that can illuminate your bedroom.

<comment><USER25> For your bedroom you'd really want an old 5W charger. Why turbo charge and put permanent strain on your battery when anything that takes 6+ hours will do.

<comment><USER26> If it's a good quality charger it shouldn't be feeding the battery enough power to impact its lifetime.

<comment><USER27> A phone will charge as rapidly as it can without _undue_ risk to the battery's longevity. But, it's still a trade-off. If you charged slower, you would decrease risk to longevity.

But when you to bed, your phone doesn't know that rapid charging convenience doesn't matter. So it will still make the same trade-off. If you use a less- powerful charger, you can force it to take its time in charging.

<comment><USER28> > _But when you to bed, your phone doesn 't know that rapid charging > convenience doesn't matter_

iPhones now know that you're going to bed and adjusts the charging to match [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210512](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT210512)

I believe some Android phones have had the same feature for years now, dunno about the base android OS

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> 100w GaN coming from Sanho. They've done good products in the past, so very optimistic about this. Two USB A and two USB C ports.

[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/hyperjuice- wo...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/hyperjuice-worlds-first- and-smallest-100w-gan-charger)

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm still waiting for a USB-C charger with more than two ports. Until then, I'm sticking with USB-A cables for everything except my MacBook Pro. For travel (where outlets are often at a premium), I use a four port USB-A charger on a nightstand to charge 2 iPhones and an Apple Watch (this one: [https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Charger-Foldable-PowerPort- Sams...](https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Charger-Foldable-PowerPort- Samsung/dp/B00VH8G1SY)).

<comment><USER31> Something like this?

[https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000237954145.html](https://m.aliexpress.com/item/4000237954145.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Way back in the 90s aerospace was replacing silicon with gallium arsenide to make more efficient and faster chips.

I'm glad to see it's finally reaching a useful commercial application.

<comment><USER33> Note that this is Gallium Nitride (GaN,) not Gallium Arsenide (GaAs).

<comment><USER32> Right but I believe it is a similar process built in the same R&D.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> How do does gallium nitride stack up against silicon carbide? I heard the latter is responsible for the recent increase in efficiency of EVs.

<comment><USER35> Faster switching speed for the equivalent breakdown, at least from an RF amplifier perspective. SiC was an interim until GaN was developed, and is essentially obsoleted now.

What's interesting is how the DOD heavily invested in GaN technology in 90s and 00s, pushing the USA ahead of Japan in compound semiconductor. Weather that lead will stay; who knows. The Chinese have a GaN fab now. GaN is critical for RADAR and higher power SATCOM, so big defense support that has dual use for civilian wireless comms.

<comment><USER36> > Faster switching speed for the equivalent breakdown, at least from an RF > amplifier perspective. SiC was an interim until GaN was developed, and is > essentially obsoleted now.

Wait wait wait... GaN and SiC have very, very different use profiles, and characteristics. SiC is by no means obsolete, and nor are purpose made silicon switches.

SiC is here to stay because of one very unique trait among all other semiconductors - a very pronounced negative temperature coefficient, and without extreme non-linearity.

Second to that is more or less linear threshold voltage temperature coefficient. GaN has positive threshold voltage temperature coefficient.

Third, SiC can simply operate at higher temperatures, and have known longer lifespan. GaN's current limits are WAY lower.

Fourth, transfer characteristic... Si, GaN, and SiC are all very different. This is one of few measures on which plain silicon beats contenders.

<comment><USER35> I was thinking in terms of RF amps. Cree was making SiC FETs several years ago, but I think it's all GaN on SiC now. There was a SiC fab in CA making RF parts, but I think they went belly-up. All the SiC FETs topped out a 2.5 GHz.

How does the negative temp coefficient help; stability for very high temps? I know the positive temp coefficient was an issue in RF BJT, requiring ballast resistors for stabilization, but those are not needed in any FETs. The positive temp coefficient should be useful for GaN as long as you have temp stabilization in the bias network; all of my amps did.

Good point about the high temp. I know of some oil drill electronics in SiC. I just though SiC was dead for RF.

<comment><USER36> > How does the negative temp coefficient help; stability for very high temps?

You can put multiple switches in parallel, and have them self balance without resorting to active temperature compensation which is completely out of question for any consumer grade device.

For power electronics, GaN is nowhere near as big of a bang as SiC, with its current handling being the primary showstopper. SiC can switch 100A loads at one kilovolt and above with ease, and at very high frequencies. There are simply no equivalent GaN part for this comparison.

Second to that, GaN needs a tricky gate driver, and is normally an n-channel depletion mode device. SiC can still be driven driverless at lo

Second to that, SiC JFETs still have niche uses in audio amps exactly because of their "bad" shallow IV curve.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Still waiting for the next generation of USB-C hubs. Currently, almost all cause Wi-Fi issues, most will have Windows complain about "limited display connection".

<comment><USER35> That's just due to cost cutting (poor shielding). GaN will allow a faster slew rate (higher break down voltage), so emissions will actually become worse.

The FCC needs to enforce emissions regulations. I remember when PCs (even the C64) had cases to meet emissions requirements. Now you see PCs in glass cases. It really sucks doing amateur radio in an urban area due to spectrum pollution.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I'm still shocked at how poorly most plugs are designed for fitting in various outlets and power strips.

<comment><USER39> that's mostly because American domestic outlets are the worst in the world.

<comment><USER40> Do you have an example you'd hold up as the ideal or best case outlet?

<comment><USER41> The UK plug design is generally regarded as the best of the standard ones [https://www.fastcompany.com/3032807/why-england-has-the- best...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3032807/why-england-has-the-best-wall- sockets-on-earth)

From my experience with some amount of traveling, I would agree that its very nice to use in practice and definitely got a lot of things right.

<comment><USER42> Did I understand correctly that outlets contain a switch and are off by default and that the grounding pin switches them on when inserting the plug? That's great.

<comment><USER43> Not an electrical switch. The outlets contain a physical gate over live and neutral that is pushed open by the longer earth pin.

<comment><USER44> Which means you can use a European plug in a UK socket, if you first put something in the earth slot (a key works well).

European travellers are generally impressed when I show them this trick, and sometimes rightly concerned that I'm sticking metal objects into a power outlet. If there's any chance the outlet is wired incorrectly, don't do this unless you can isolate the outlet or the key.

<comment><USER45> Yeah I wouldn't rely on things being wired correctly. When I moved into my current UK house the neutral and earth were physically connected (someone had driven a nail through a cable and "got lucky"). Took a while to find the nail and fix that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Ok, but they're USB-C, meaning there is an 80% chance they implement the spec incorrectly (resulting in weird issues with random devices), and a 10% chance that they are straight up unsafe. Benson is no longer updating his list AFAIK, but that's not because people have learned to do USB-C correctly; they haven't, e.g. [0]

[0]: [https://email@example.com/how-to-design-a-proper- usb-...](https://firstname.lastname@example.com/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-c-power- sink-hint-not-the-way-raspberry-pi-4-did-it-f470d7a5910)

</comment><comment> ur-whale Would anyone knowledgeable care to explaine why GaN based charges are more efficient than Silicon based ones ?

<comment><USER47> This article describes that: [https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/1/18051974/gallium- nitride-...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/1/18051974/gallium-nitride- anker-material-silicon-semiconductor-energy) (link was in the article).

<comment> ur-whale I did read the linked article.

It doesn't really explain anything.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Since people are throwing out chargers they like, here's my current favourite: [https://satechi.net/products/75w-dual-type-c-pd-travel- charg...](https://satechi.net/products/75w-dual-type-c-pd-travel-charger)

It's fantastic for travel. It can charge my laptop (USB-C), Apple Watch + iPhone (USB-A) and power bank (USB-C) all at the same time. It also has a detachable AC cable so you can swap it before you leave instead of carrying an international plug adapter.

</comment><comment><USER49> I wonder why they didn't include the RAVPower 61w GaN charger. It is smaller than the "Slim" model and has folding prongs. [https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp-pc112-gan- tech-61w-wall...](https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp-pc112-gan- tech-61w-wall-charger)

</comment><comment><USER36> A man in OEM manufacturing here. Not an electronics engineer professionally, but more or less involuntary having to deal with it.

First, I will say that GaN is not a make or break deal yet now. There are very high performance silicon switches that can produce equal gains for use cases in consumer electronic. In absolute comparison GaN is of course winning over Si, but use case wise, not so much.

GaN's main appeal is that you can retrofit it into simplest buck topologies, and get instant gains without any extra hassle.

GaN works best for low current, low voltage applications you normally see in consumer electronics. Everywhere else besides RF, it's not a clear improvement over silicon.

For long time GaN existed in a narrow niche of high frequency circuits, where people were OK with n channel depletion mode device with a lot of tricky sides. Its use as a power switch is relatively novel.

Enhancement mode devices are now on the market, but there is a catch. Because p-GaN is nowhere near as good as n-GaN, pure GaN enhancement mode devices are nowhere near as good as depletion mode devices. For this reason, some companies are trying a an approach with hybridised GaN-Si device to overcome that. Again, that is way more tricky and expensive than a single material device.

Now, back to chargers. It is _easily possible_ to make more compact chargers without any exotic switches GaNfets included for as long as you put just a little bit more brains to engineering by going to better topologies.

What a lot of charger makers do these days to go along with the trend for smaller chargers is to turn up their switching frequencies as much as possible without melting the charger. They still do miscalculations about that, and you now have a lot of molten/burnt chargers as a result.

They are being misguided by the switching speed narrative, and completely miss that point that size of passive components has to do with way more things than just switching speed.

First, they can throw away the standalone rectification, gaining some efficiency in the process. Second, they should either go with some advanced flat transformer setup with appropriate resonant topology. Or they can throw away transformer altogether and use piezo transformer, or capacitive isolation. Third, a separate buck for last stage DC-DC can also be thrown away if you use multitap transformer and some electronic switching.

Transformers are by far biggest contributors to charger volume, and weight, and are bigger than capacitors in some cases. Throwing them away will provide way more space savings, along with other extraneous components.

So think twice about going the GaN route before considering things above first. Switching performance in a typical AC-DC is by far not the biggest of your problems.

</comment><comment><USER50> Good discussion of SiC vs GaN for EV applications:

[https://chargedevs.com/features/opinion-sic-vs-gan- semicondu...](https://chargedevs.com/features/opinion-sic-vs-gan- semiconductors-for-ev-power-converters/)

</comment><comment><USER51> I think GaN transistors are a major thing in the next decade. Designed a GaN FET based small vehicle motor controller few years ago and similar size/speed/efficiency is currently not achievable with any other _mass produced_ transistor type. There used to be only small players on the field (GaN Systems and EPC) but now Panasonic and Infineon have started offering their versions. Expecting the prices to go down and volumes go up.

</comment><comment><USER52> Any of these fancy GaN chargers have USB-IF certification?

</comment><comment><USER50> There are PC power supplies with Ga-N transistors these days, but seems they are so far used only for the very top end.

[https://www.anandtech.com/show/12645/the-corsair- ax1600i-psu...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/12645/the-corsair-ax1600i-psu- review-unparalleled-performance)

</comment><comment><USER53> Are these chargers UL certified? I would be wary of using higher wattage chargers that have no been properly tested.

</comment><comment><USER54> Is this a mains frequency thing?

I saw the GaN stuff on US Amazon but cost and specs seemed worse than the uk ones.

eg the uk Anker 60W ones cost less look about the same size can do 30W PD and has another 5 ports too

I just don't see the value proposition of these GaN ones

</comment><comment><USER55> This is an area we needed Jony Ive to dedicate some time to improving. An Apple Pro charger for road warriors designed by Jony would be an awesome parting gift to the world.

</comment><comment><USER56> > It's not perfect yet: Anker's 30W Atom PD 1 struggles to power something as > large as a 13-inch MacBook Pro

Umm wot, maybe older MacBooks, maybe when gaming or rendering. For writing code and browsing on a 15incher I'm averaging 20watts. Cheap 12v cigarette lighter one that does 24w is enough (but barely) to keep things running for me. If I turn off most of apps I get as low 6watts on a hexacore device. I use iStat menus to monitor my power use which is quite exciting.

<comment><USER57> Apple's recommended charger for a 13inch MBP is a 61W adapter, for the 15 inch is an 87W and for the 16 inch is a 96W.

Although you can use an under-specced adapter it probably won't be enough to power and charge the system while fully using the CPU, GPU, and screen.

<comment><USER56> Basically you just repeated what I just said...

I am actually considering buying 30W one for it's portability.

But then again I am not a YouTube influencer that occasionally games and cuts videos (you know, the person that Apple designs it's computers nowadays for).

<comment><USER28> > _the person that Apple designs it 's computers nowadays for_

I develop software in Apple's programming language using Apple's frameworks and Apple's own IDE, and power usage is through the roof. 50W while typing (and auto-complete is doing it's job) and 80W while building.

I think it's odd and quite rude that you dismiss anyone who has higher computing than just typing some basic text and browsing the web to be "a YouTube influencer". If all you need is the computing power of an Eee PC then yeah, I don't think you are Apple's target market.

<comment><USER56> I use WebStorm and IntelliJ. From what I know Apple's IDE is one of the most appalling one while IntelliJ is one of the best. Yes they are both using quite a bit of resources. Nope, neither of them are compiling code using GPU and via super accurate colour gamut.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> My levono comes with a 65w charger that's not much bigger than the 45 w charger shown here... What's the big deal?

</comment><comment><USER59> Uninformed basic question: Would these charge my phone faster than the standard ones?

<comment><USER60> Unfortunately, it depends. There are various standards that devices use to negotiate how much power to send over the USB cable. These chargers tend to support all the popular standards so they'll charge your phone at the fastest possible speed (unless you have a OnePlus or OPPO phone). If you have a midrange or higher Android phone, the included charger likely charges at max speed. If you have an iPhone with the 5W adapter, any of these adapters will charge faster than that.

<comment><USER59> Thanks!

My Pixel 4 charges at 18W, and I'm probably good as is.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> N mention of the innergie 60c Which is 60w, changeable us/EU/uk

</comment><comment><USER62> Does this breakthrough apply to other things like inverters?

</comment><comment><USER63> If I built a new house today I'd wire 12 volts DC in addition to 110VAC. Safe for kids and fewer unsightly wall warts.

<comment><USER64> Also impractical due to I^2R losses.

<comment><USER63> Not if you has an in-wall supply in each room.

<comment><USER64> I'll stick with the AC thanks. Having a house full of switchers is going to be hell.

<comment><USER63> I already have a house full of switchers, with all the wall warts! I've got at least 15 that are always plugged in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Are there any wireless charging pads or surfaces that I can buy/use with a phone case that has a thick backing?

<comment><USER66> A dirt cheap one still works with an otter box for me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> WOW... This is a horribly misleading article and discussion. The silicon of the switching circuit PALES in comparison to the real magic here.

The wattage capability and size of these chargers is only possible because of US "power delivery". These chargers are NOT hitting 30+ watts at 5V traditional USB voltage. Yes, there is another power and ground wire pair in the cable, but iirc they got smaller in diameter.

These devices are small and cool there because your device can charge at up to 20V now.

GAN didn't outright make that happen on the source or sink side. It didn't hurt, it's cool, but the difference is smaller than they are implying by comparing a 5V device to a 20V device.

An article that goes on about fast charging and never says "20V" once is not telling you the full story.

<comment><USER68> I believe the point was that GaN semiconductors make these chargers more compact, cooler, and lighter than their silicon competitors.

<comment><USER67> But that isn't really the case. These chargers wouldn't be pushing 30+W to device at this size if they weren't also at 20V. One way before the other!

Lock it down to 5V and the size goes way up. The comparison to Apple's 5V and 5W from like 2008 is at best misleading.

Are these smaller because of better silicon, yes, are they marginally smaller and the real difference is USB pd, also yes.

<comment><USER69> No, the real difference isn't PD2. They have models with identical specs where size difference is not the PD but material.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> I know that "silicion" isn't just pure silicon given dopings but I can't help but ponder the environmental and toxicological differences between the two. Gallium nitride seems loke it might be more toxic and gives me a sneaking suspicion they will be a "compact floreacent tube" solution that is a flash in the pan decade standard that gets replaced by something far less toxic anyway (LEDs). However I know that I don't know the details so I cannot judge only raise concerns which I hope were already addressed.

I understand the logistics issues involved in standardization of repeatably used sockets but USB chargers are so very "unhygenic" from a security perspective. Proper design from the data end shouldn't allow any unexpected changes but that is error prone in practice. It is sort of like sharing cups - in theory the immune system should take care of any pathogens but in practice it is a needless risk.

Getting into engineer dreams, an ideal design would involve readily apparent subsets between charge and data pins even if they occupy the same socket. So any charger honeypots to plant or extract data would be obviously untrustworthy.

<comment><USER71> There's no need to ponder the toxicity of gallium nitride and worry about your "sneaking suspicion" that it's toxic. It's in the "may cause skin irritation" level of toxicity, so really not worth worrying about. [https://www.ltschem.com/msds/GaN.pdf](https://www.ltschem.com/msds/GaN.pdf)

<comment><USER70> That is good to hear. I remembered the mercury resemblance and recalled it as a "mercury lite" toxic. Turns out even pure gallium is pretty mild.

<comment><USER72> > Turns out even pure gallium is pretty mild

It's pretty mild unless it contacts something made of aluminum. Then it's fairly impressively destructive.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


CleverCSV: A Drop-In Replacement for Python's CSV Module - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/alan-turing-institute/CleverCSV <comment><USER2> > standardize Convert a CSV file to one that conforms to RFC-4180.

Very glad to see this here, hopefully it'll help with increasing adoption of the RFC.

I find one of the biggest pains of working with CSV is that all too often, someone gets Excel involved, and then Excel absolutely butchers the file. Off the top of my head: It strips leading 0's (even if quoted), converts big numbers to scientific notation, sometimes interprets non-date values as dates, and when saving, keeps the mangled values, doesn't preserve quotes, and uses regional settings -- to the point in some locales, it becomes a "semi-colon separated file"! Even just opening and then saving a .csv (without editing) can totally mangle it to the point it's unusable. Sometimes Excel can't even open a file _saved by Excel_ without mangling it even more.

[1] [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180)

<comment><USER3> At a previous company, someone decided to experiment with putting a comma in a text field submitted to an internal service that for some godforsaken reason spat out CSV files that a lot of other teams consumed. I forget the exact entry in the field but it was something like "I wonder, how does this handle commas".

Turns out it didn't handle them well. It didn't escape them or anything. Out spits this line in the csv format that has more columns than expected and everything from the that field onwards was off by one. Most teams were lucky, their code barfed when presented with a line with too many fields. Some teams were unlucky and it didn't. How unlucky _they_ were was somewhat varied based on how much data validation they did.

That caused a big headache for a lot of people trying to recover from the actions of the genius who thought doing that against the production endpoint vs the test endpoint.

That incident pretty much solidified my reputation in the team as some kind of weird voodoo type of chaos monkey, because my shifts _always_ had a significantly higher sev2 rate caused by things failing that I'd not touched or had any influence over.

<comment><USER4> Better an issue raised by a engineer then that same issue caused by an end user :shrug:

<comment><USER3> The engineer technically was an end user. It was a service that could get called as an indirect result of customer action, but without any customer supplied information passed along, which is part of the reason it didn't do any input clean-up (at least according to the post-incident report). They assumed they could trust people not to screw things up.

To be fair, it had been running for a long time that way without anyone doing that to them.

<comment><USER4> All good, I hope my comment didn't come off as snarky because I have 110% been in similar environments!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This seems kind of philosophically similar to FTFY, [https://github.com/LuminosoInsight/python- ftfy](https://github.com/LuminosoInsight/python-ftfy), except for CSV files instead of botched text strings.

<comment><USER6> I knew of ftfy already but I would love some more examples of these kinds of data cleanup libraries; it's always super useful.

<comment><USER7> Not in any particular order, but here is a list of really useful text butchering utilities, that I keep in the same grab-bag as ftfy: csvclean[1], unidecode[2], transliterate[3], charset-normalizer[4], cchardet[5], phonenumbers[6][7], iconv[8], enca/enconv[9].

[1] [https://csvkit.readthedocs.io/en/1.0.3/scripts/csvclean.html](https://csvkit.readthedocs.io/en/1.0.3/scripts/csvclean.html)

[2] [https://pypi.org/project/Unidecode/](https://pypi.org/project/Unidecode/)

[3] [https://pypi.org/project/transliterate/](https://pypi.org/project/transliterate/)

[4] [https://pypi.org/project/charset- normalizer/](https://pypi.org/project/charset-normalizer/)

[5] [https://pypi.org/project/cchardet/](https://pypi.org/project/cchardet/)

[6] [https://pypi.org/project/phonenumbers/](https://pypi.org/project/phonenumbers/)

[7] which is a python port of Google's libphonenumber: [https://github.com/google/libphonenumber](https://github.com/google/libphonenumber)

[8] [https://linux.die.net/man/1/iconv](https://linux.die.net/man/1/iconv)

[9] [https://linux.die.net/man/1/enca](https://linux.die.net/man/1/enca)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I learnt a while ago about a way to provide a schema for CSV files. If you publish CSV data, may be useful to provide a schema for it [1].

Sounds like CleverCSV could determine and generate a schema automatically given a CSV file.

1: [https://github.com/theodi/csvlint.rb#json-table-schema- suppo...](https://github.com/theodi/csvlint.rb#json-table-schema-support)

</comment><comment><USER9> The problem mostly with CSV beyond the lack of standards, character encodings, and lack of compression, inability to efficiently write or read, and problems handling multiline freeform text, is that ultimately the structure is inband with the data, which is what makes all problems probable.

<comment><USER10> > The problem mostly with CSV... is that ultimately the structure is inband > with the data

I wonder if for 90% of users this seems like a critical UI feature!

</comment></comment><comment> fake-name The only issue I've ever had with python's CSV module is that it's _slow_. Is this any faster?

<comment><USER11> Hi, I'm the author of CleverCSV. Although the package was initially written to mainly improve the accuracy of automated dialect detection, we ended up changing some aspects of the C parser as well (most notably increasing the look-ahead to two characters). This has made the parsing somewhat faster than the builtin csv package (around 10-20%).

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> TSV --> Problem Solved! Has anyone ever stumbled upon a cell entry that needed to contain an actual tab character? No!!! The tab character's entire raison-d'etre is to separate fields, whereas the comma separates words. Technically the "C" in CSV denotes "Character" but with TSV the intent is 100% clear. The MIME type is explicit: "Note that fields that contain tabs are not allowable in this encoding." This is a vanishingly small price to pay for a parser a simple as split("\t")...

[1] [http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/tab- separat...](http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/text/tab-separated- values)

<comment><USER13> What problem is solved, exactly? How do you parse the messy CSV file you've been handed, in order to convert it to TSV?

<comment><USER12> My point is simply that TSVs are just as straightforward as CSVs but suffer none of the issues. So why are we not making TSVs to begin with?

<comment><USER13> Nobody (or very few people) processing CSVs is doing it because they like them. You do it because that's how someone else created the data - someone you don't have any control over, like a government agency, financial institution, piece of obscure software, whatever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> How does this compare to Pandas?

<comment><USER15> Pandas uses the Python csv module under the hood. Most of the code in the read_csv method is used to get the data from the csv file and load it into data frames.

<comment><USER16> Are you sure? Wes McKinney rewrote the Pandas CSV parser way back in late 2012 because the batteries-included version was slow and memory-hungry. Did Python upstream his version later on, or replace it with something faster (I'd be surprised if they did either, but I'd be curious to know)

<comment><USER17> It's configurable. The default parser is written in C, but it's possible to use a parser based on the csv module if you needs things like separators specified by a regex.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Developer risk profiles: why you won't find a technical co-founder - <AUTHOR> https://hackernoon.com/developer-risk-profiles-why-you-wont-find-a-technical-co-founder-514381d9ad09#.nq8hunwng <comment><USER2> In addition to the points that this author makes connecting risk profiles to work options available to potential technical co-founders, let me add an orthogonal issue that impedes people from signing on to the high risk proposition of building the 'great idea' that someone else has generated.

For someone with a technical background it feels really hard to judge whether the other person, the one with the business vision has the combination of sales, marketing skills together with hustle and perseverance to really pull off the customer acquisition side of the equation.

This is the technical co-founder's fear that he/she will build something really great that meets the vision but the whole business development side of the equation will suffer. In various corporate settings I have met too many sales people who talked a good game but ultimately had more excuses than results. In a start-up I don't have the luxury of a sales team that is big enough to take up the slack and gradually weed out the people who cannot deliver.</comment>


When Patents Attack – Part Two - <AUTHOR> http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/496/when-patents-attackpart-two

<comment><USER2> I just heard this on the radio and it's definitely worth listening to, but the podcast will only be available on Sunday evening.

The story follows a software patent that was bought by Intellectual Ventures (Nathan Myhrvold's patent troll company) and subsequently used to sue a number of tech companies. Most of the companies settled, but two of the companies fought back and... I don't want to spoil the ending for you.

The first part of the story is a repeat of a segment that originally aired in 2011, but left a lot of questions unanswered. The second half ties up the loose ends. The current episode is called "Part Two", but actually includes both parts.

<comment><USER3> Their download links are numbered by episode and usually available right away even if the website isn't updated:

<http://podcast.thisamericanlife.org/podcast/496.mp3>

<comment><USER4> It is not very polite to post direct links to the unpublished MP3s.

<comment><USER5> If the browser says GET, and the server says 200 - OK, you can assume that someone will do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Mule Radio (I work there, you may know us as home of John Gruber's The Talk Show) donated $1000 to the EFF to help fight this patent. You can, too.

<https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/05/help-save-podcasting>

On another note, it's nice to see Nathan Myhrvold getting called out as the patent troll he so clearly is, despite the bogus persona of a modern renaissance man he so carefully cultivates.

<comment><USER7> Well, he's actually both. I've been a critic of Myhrvold for almost as long as Intellectual Vultures... ahem, Ventures, has existed and I am very against software patents but there is no denying he is very smart, very talented and quite adept as a practitioner of quite a few activities. Him being a patent troll, as distasteful as I find that, doesn't negate the other stuff.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> 100 new software patents a day...

Someone owns a patent for public wifi and is sueing coffee shops. They aren't going after private individuals yet.

Basically, now that people found out how profitable it is being in the patent troll business, it has gotten even bigger.

</comment><comment><USER9> This issue needs more mainstream coverage like this. Get the word out!

I never really bought Intellectual Ventures argument that they aren't a patent troll, but after hearing about the shell company they set up and the 90% cut IV gets of any settlements, it's shameful.

</comment><comment><USER10> I love NPR. Thank you U.S. Citizens and companies for making contributions to this important part of society.

When I have enough money I'm going to make a donation. From Australia.

<comment><USER11> I believe TAL is from Public Radio Intl. but you can also just donate to TAL. I slip them a little bit every couple years. You can also buy the app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Laura has been out interviewing people in the Bay Area regarding software patents, I'd be willing to bet there will be a part three soon! :-X

Edit: Nvm there I am, at 51:34!

</comment><comment><USER13> Streaming now on KUOW

<http://shoutcast.kuow.org:8002/></comment>


Israeli researchers develop revolutionary alternative fuel process - <AUTHOR> http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-researchers-develop-revolutionary-alternative-fuel-process/

<comment><USER2> It is very energy intensive to get Hydrogen into a usable form, especially when not just deriving from existing Hydrocarbons. [1] They do at least acknowledge this in the article.

If they manage to crack that problem, there will be a lot more promising technologies than combing Hydrogen and CO2 to make a Petroleum-replacement- fuel.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production)

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you think they attacked the wrong problem?

<comment><USER3> It's a perfect example of getting caught up in the implications of the solution of a hard problem before you've got it solved. Why if we only had access to limitless cheap hydrogen we could...

There's _endless_ neat energy things we could do with limitless cheap hydrogen once we have it. This one isn't even that interesting, just academic pipe- dreaming.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I keep dreaming of the day where I'll travel with a keg of water in my trunk.

</comment><comment><USER5> RIP Stan Meyer</comment>


Ask HN: What do you expect Hacker News to look like in 5 years? - <AUTHOR> Personally, I expect to see the the same orange banner on top and all the simplicity of the current design. Maybe a few functionality tweaks here and there, but the overall appearance will stay the same in my opinion.<p>To let you know, I'm looking for answers that describe the atmosphere and functionality of Hacker News in addition to the appearance. <comment><USER2> HN was launched in Feb 07. The complaints that it had jumped the shark began about a year later, when we got a sudden influx of new users after Arrington wrote about us. To measure any possible decline I created an alternative version of the frontpage that only counted the votes of users who signed up in the first year:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/classic>

As you can see, it's still not much different from the regular frontpage, which is encouraging.

The median comment is probably not as good as it was several years ago, nor as civil, but things aren't dramatically worse, partly because the sorting of comments (which I've tweaked a fair amount) means the lame ones are less visible.

HN traffic roughly doubles each year. That growth rate shows no sign of decreasing. If it continued we'd have 32x the traffic in 5 years. We currently get a bit over 80k unique visitors on a typical weekday. 32x that is 2.6 million. It seems overoptimistic to expect the site could grow to that size and still be bearable to use. So probably either the growth rate is going to have to decrease, or HN will be destroyed. I'll do my best to make sure it's not the latter.

<comment><USER3> Would you ever consider implementing subreddits? The reddit team has said that they were implemented in order to help the site scale without losing the small community feel, and that certainly holds true for some of the smaller, more focused subreddits.

Alternatively, would you take steps to limit new membership? HN these days is often mentioned in the same breath as Twitter, Reddit, and Digg by many bloggers. I don't see that trend stopping any time soon, so if you didn't plan on implementing subreddits, then something like this might be necessary.

The Eternal September phenomenon has always been fascinating to me, not least because it is one of the Internet's oldest problems, yet it remains unsolved. I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on how a community can protect itself from dilution in this manner. Beyond the ideas expressed in the following link, did you have any other thoughts? Has anything changed your mind in the past year?

<http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I fully expect that in 5 years a good portion of members who are active on Hacker News today will still not have launched any startups, there will be plenty of debate over which frameworks/languages are the best, lots of discussions about how to handle scaling problems, and plenty of threads about whether it's better to stick with a six-figure job or go the startup route.

</comment><comment><USER5> If the atmosphere and functionality are to continue coping effectively with the ongoing growth, I think new ground will have to be broken in how to manage large online communities. The human brain only deals effectively with a community size of about 150 persons. More than that causes issues (strife). Most online communities only have somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% to 30% of members as "active users" to some degree. I don't remember the statistics as well as I used to, but I think (typically) about 20% are "regular" posters and another 10% are one-time or very rare posters. I have in the past found that this meant that a forum with more than about 700 members would be effectively bumping the ceiling on that 150 person "community" mark. What I have seen is that this tended to cause spin-offs in some fashion or another.

My thought is that older cultures tend to be more formal as a means to effectively cope with the larger-than-150 community size of developed cities. I don't know how to apply that to the culture of an online community but I think that is where there is hope for effectively coping with the size of HN. This is the largest forum I have ever participated in. I know there are some other large forums out there, but I don't know how they compare, size/traffic- wise, to HN. In terms of culture, my general understanding is they tend to be less polite.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't see much change in terms of appearance over the next five years. It's unlikely there'll be a need.

Where I think HN will need to change significantly is in the way submissions are handled. Currently you need a score of about 4 - 7 in the first hour to make the front page, as the number of users increase, the score threshold increases with it. HN is at the higher end in terms of front page quality, but there's already a lot of good stuff that gets missed. Ultimately that will be compounded as things go on unless something is done to cope with it.

</comment><comment><USER7> HN is a great reference library as well as a news source and a community. The 'front page' is great for keeping your finger on the pulse, but what about more tools for finding and keeping up with subsets of the astronomical amount of information.

For example, what if you could look at all postings that have at least 10 but fewer than 30 ups? What if you could look at the posts with the most ups of all time? A data-mining point of view might accentuate the depth of the knowledge represented here.

</comment><comment><USER8> Given the current trends in migration from other communities, I wouldn't be surprised if Paul is pressured into adding a "tl;dr" link to the header. ;)</comment>


Wirecard CEO exits as search for missing billions hits dead end in Asia - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-wirecard-accounts/wirecard-ceo-quits-as-search-for-missing-billions-hits-dead-end-in-asia-idUSKBN23Q0YA <comment> sneeze-slayer NPR's Invisibilia did a really interesting show/podcast on one of the biggest short sellers of Wirecard and how he has been harassed for the past few years. I highly recommend people listen to if if they are interested in this crazy Wirecard tale! It's titled "Trust Fall"

[https://www.npr.org/transcripts/868001948](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/868001948)

<comment><USER2> "Never threaten to cost someone more than it would cost to have you killed." is a reasonable rule to live by.

<comment><USER3> With the important caveats of 1) the _implicit_ costs of murder-for-hire are probably pretty high (risk of going to jail, e.g.) and 2) killing someone doesn't necessarily make the lawsuit go away—though that doesn't help the person being killed.

So the utility formula is something like:

      (p[c] * c[f] + c[a]) ÷ p[l] > c[l]

      where:
      p[c] = probability of getting caught
      p[l] = probability of the lawsuit being dropped
      c[f] = value of your freedom
      c[a] = cost of an assassin
      c[l] = cost of losing the lawsuit

You can layer in additional probabilities—like the probability of the assassination being successful, or the probability of winning the case. This is just fun to talk about the utility formula of assassinations on HN.

But it's probably true that as c[l] increases, c[f] increases as well, and p[l] drops. So it's rarely (never?) worth this trade-off.

<comment><USER4> You forgot _' probability that your opponent reasons matters like this out rationally'_, which is a big one I think.

<comment><USER3> Which, if you want to get pedantic—and yes! let's get pedantic!—probably correlates with a lower probability that the assassination isn't successful. Because if they're irrational, they're going to end up meeting an undercover cop in the parking lot of the local K-Mart or something.

See also: _Tiger King_. Which is probably the best citation and the best thing I'll type all day.

<comment><USER5> Ah yes, Tiger King, a well balanced documentary that presents an in-depth look at the practices of murder for hire, and not a lurid tale of entertainment so Netflix can make more money. Popular media, especially shows like CSI and Law and Order, have an incentive to show the rich white folk how resolute the government is, and just how much no one could ever get away with murder. The reality's a bit different, and as recent events have shown, the police aren't above murder anyway. They protect their own and accept murderers in their ranks. So, an ex-cop or current cop is probably the _best_ person to properly incentivize to commit murder.

For them, `p[c] = probability of getting caught` expands to a[c] = probability of getting caught a[b] = probability of there being no repercussions despite getting caught.

But if we're gonna base today's lesson on how to get away with murder on the show _Tiger King_ , the two step lesson it teaches is: 1. own a tiger sanctuary. 2. feed your husband to the tigers for lunch.

<comment><USER4> One of them was convicted, and the other wasn't. Sure that's not _proof_ of anything, but it's more than just the netflix documentary that says he did it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A very good thread summarizing what happened in this massive fraud:

[https://mobile.twitter.com/DonutShorts/status/12736903626080...](https://mobile.twitter.com/DonutShorts/status/1273690362608078848)

Expect more revelations in the coming year or so:

> "Only when the tide goes out you find out who has been swimming naked" \- > Warren Buffet

> "The fraud cycle follows the business cycle" \- Jim Chanos

<comment><USER7> Are there _any_ honest, reputable operators in the financial industry?

Between Enron, S&L, Lehman, WorldCom, AIG, Wirecard, Madoff, VW, gold price fixing, 1MDB, and all the "lost" BTC stories - among so many others - it seems like a question that needs to be asked.

<comment><USER8> There are degrees of this issue; any business handling money is going to attract fraud, the question is how well the internal controls deal with it and whether management are in on it.

At one end is Lehman, which was incredibly over-leveraged and only slightly fraudulent ( [https://www.accountancyage.com/2010/12/21/ey-sued-over- lehma...](https://www.accountancyage.com/2010/12/21/ey-sued-over-lehmans- audit/) ), but set out to be a legit investment bank. AIG is in a roughly similar category. There was some fraud: [https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-gen-re-aig- trial-0...](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-gen-re-aig- trial-012709-2009jan27-story.html) \- but the collapse was due to leverage.

At the other end are Madoff and 1MDB, which were intentionally fraudulent from the beginning.

The "lost" BTC stories are just off in outer space; the bitcoin ecosystem doesn't acknowledge fraud or accounting control as a concept, because that goes against "code is law" and transaction irreversability.

<comment><USER7> Real people lost a lot of BTC on Mt Gox, so I'm not sure how the BTC stories are in outer space.

Apart from that, the second half of your first sentence is exactly the question - is fraud _endemic_ to this industry, and actually central to its operation?

The popular perception is that the industry is somehow fundamentally honest with a few bad-actor exceptions.

Considering how regularly fraud happens, how damaging it is, and how rarely it's flagged by auditors and regulators, I think it would be useful to question that view.

Or to invert the polarity - how many significant potential frauds have been prevented by auditors and regulators, or by paperwork theatre like KYC?

Are there any? If so, how do the numbers compare with the number of frauds that blow up into real financial and reputational damage?

<comment><USER9> >Real people lost a lot of BTC on Mt Gox, so I'm not sure how the BTC stories are in outer space.

That was the fault of Mt. Gox, not bitcoin. Also the fault of uneducated users, don't leave your bitcoin sitting at an exchange.

<comment><USER8> ^ This is what I meant by the bitcoin community defining fraud as "not fraud, also your fault"

<comment><USER9> You clearly don't understand how bitcoin works.

Saying Bitcoin is flawed because Mt. Gox got hacked, is like blaming the manufacturer of your car because it was stolen when you left it in parking garage with no attendant, and left the keys in the ignition with the window down.

There was no technological flaw with bitcoin itself, there was plenty of technical flaws with Mt. Gox web site.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Wirecard's massive fraud has been documented for over a decade, but the German financial oversight group BAFIN refused to do their job and investigate the fraud claims: [https://valueandopportunity.com/2020/06/19/wirecard-the- germ...](https://valueandopportunity.com/2020/06/19/wirecard-the-german-enron- a-very-personal-history-2008-2020/)

There are some real lessons here about journalism, efficient markets, govt oversight, and truth prevailing in the very long run.

<comment><USER7> It's tempting to wonder if perhaps elements in the German political and financial establishments were profiting from this, and the CEO will be the fall guy.

It seems extremely organised and well-protected for alleged fraud.

Usually fraud relies on personal/corporate reputation. But when you have both lawyers and hackers being employed to take down critics and investigators, it's reasonable to ask questions about regulator collusion and political influence.

<comment><USER11> I call Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

The problem was that German politicians were extremely desperate for at least one large-scale German "new tech business" success story, and Wirecard seemed to be the only candidate that on the face of it appeared to fit the bill. That blinded them to the obvious and made them see an anglo-saxon conspiracy to keep German tech down behind every reasonable story about Wirecard.

In my opinion, it shows the dangers when national protectionism and picking winners intrudes in the supposedly neutral business of regulating critical businesses.

<comment><USER12> You should also never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by greed.

<comment><USER13> There is also a saying usually when discussing stock trading: "Gier frisst Hirn". Greed eats brains.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> As I mentioned in another submitted story: SoftBank really knows how to pick them. It invested 1 billion about a year ago [1].

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-23/softbank-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-23/softbank-..).

<comment><USER15> But not directly. WSJ wrote "Funding came from personal accounts of a group of SoftBank employees and an outside investor."

Doesn't make it better, does it?

<comment><USER16> It's definitely better for SoftBank.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> What a strange situation. WireCard immediately looked dubious when I did some research about it last year (as a regular stock investor) and I often stumbled over opinions like this one [https://www.deraktionaer.de/artikel/aktien/markus-krall- luft...](https://www.deraktionaer.de/artikel/aktien/markus-krall-lufthansa- oder-wirecard-halte-mich-an-warren-buffett-20202608.html) (German, sorry) where somewhat reputable people said they would never consider investing into WireCard, without giving a specific reason. The business model of a payment provider is straightforward and ought to be hard to get completely wrong, "what's there to be afraid of that nobody wants to speak about?", I was wondering. In hindsight it's like everybody knew or had a gut feeling something was fishy but decided not to talk about it.

</comment><comment><USER18> Not much recent HN discussion on this. Some here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23438323](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23438323).

But this, from a year ago, reads interestingly now: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19737344](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19737344).

<comment><USER19> Looks like the fraud was even worse than what last year's FT investigation was suggesting.

Originally it was just a few million transferred between multiple subsidiaries to fake sales figures to meet quarterly projections. Now actually "losing" billions of dollars sounds much worse.

I guess where there's smoke there's often fire.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Wirecard has been accused before of fraud by so called "short sellers". The document published (2 years ago?) showed a tremendous, extraordinary complex network of international corporations. Such complex setups have a very limited purpose. It can basically be only tax "optimization", hide fraud or hide ownership (UBO). After having seen this PDF I would not touch the Wirecard stock.

By the way, I think Alibaba is opening two new corporations. Per day. You may also want to read at Bronte Capital about Alibaba.

<comment><USER21> Can you remember any keywords to find that pdf or link with the multiple company set up about this?

Thanks for the alibaba tip.

<comment><USER20> No I dont. Wirecard went very aggressively against the accusations. The discussion board where it was discussed removed the link since Wirecard were suing everybody.

Could have been this one, but I am not sure. Just peaked into it and did not see the page with all the interrelated companies.

[https://www.scribd.com/document/301557004/Wirecard- pdf](https://www.scribd.com/document/301557004/Wirecard-pdf)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> And there's Masayoshi Son and SoftBank, plowing $1 billion into Wirecard a year ago, for a 5.6% stake.

Mr. Enabler seems to have secured a prime seat for many of the big frauds & scandals in tech from the past few years.

At this point regulators should just be tracking SoftBank to watch where they've stuffed the Saudi money (or in this case, it's a very unusual UAE & SoftBank financing arrangement).

Bloomberg story out right now:

"The meltdown at Wirecard AG is raising questions about the company's complicated relationship with the troubled SoftBank Group Corp."

[http://archive.is/ipWck](http://archive.is/ipWck)

<comment><USER23> My favourite SoftBank investment was the automated pizza van thing.

I can only hope SoftBank had shares in a failing robotics company that it needed to funnel money to

<comment><USER24> The pizza van guy was active here on hacker news right? I remember seeing posts from a robot pizza guy. Shame they got caught up with softbank.

<comment><USER23> I don't think being caught up with SoftBank is the issue. More that SoftBank have a subset of very negative indicators in their selection process

<comment><USER25> It seems that lack of a remotely viable businesses model and trying to scale things that don't are are common SoftBank flaws. Like WeWork and the countless scooter and ride share at a loss companies with little true barrier to entry and can hardly pay for themselves while infamously underpaying their workforce.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> There are 1.9 billion EUR missing, not sure if the implication is that they were stolen or never existed in the first place. I also can't really think of any possible explanation for this to go so far when the banks in question say that the account never existed at all. It doesn't seem believable that anyone seriously investigated the potential fraud in the last months or years, and the scandal has been public for a while now.

<comment><USER15> You cannot believe how sophisticated fraud can be. There was an amazing fraud scheme in Germany in the 1990s by a company called FlowTex. Their business was selling drilling machines for the oil and gas industry.

The amazing part about the fraud was that they sold 3000 drilling machines, but only about 300 actually existed. You would think it should be easy to simply count the existing drilling machines, but they changed the serial number plates and presented the same machines over and over again to investors and auditors. Just unbelievable that this worked for a few years.

<comment><USER27> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlowTex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlowTex) Saw a documentary with the founder the other day, served 7 of a 12 year prison sentence.

<comment><USER28> Interesting here is a documentary on this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ5m0Gv- xKM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ5m0Gv-xKM)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Wirecard is issuer of most crypto debit cards

[https://cointelegraph- com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/cointelegra...](https://cointelegraph- com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/cointelegraph.com/news/major-crypto-debit-card- issuer-reportedly-missing-21b-in-cash/amp)

</comment><comment><USER23> Slightly awkward tweet from him:

> We are overachievers. Wirecard's business is going strong into the future > and we are very much looking forward to a successful year.

[https://mobile.twitter.com/_MarkusBraun/status/1228257269567...](https://mobile.twitter.com/_MarkusBraun/status/1228257269567119361)

<comment><USER30> Old tweet

<comment><USER23> Feb this year. Not old.

<comment><USER31> Well, he said pretty much the same thing today: [https://mobile.twitter.com/_MarkusBraun/status/1273974132531...](https://mobile.twitter.com/_MarkusBraun/status/1273974132531658754)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Can someone please explain to me how 1.9B can go missing? I'm probably too naive, but I really don't how that much money can get "lost".

<comment><USER33> Bloomberg article from yesterday[1] phrased it as _" [..] auditors couldn't find about 1.9 billion euros ($2.1 billion) in cash [..]"_ and _" [..] were unable to find accounts [..]"_

I, too, was wondering what to think. How can I imagine to be unable to find an account?

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-18/wirecard-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-18/wirecard- drops-in-early-trading-before-delayed-financial-results)

<comment><USER15> As I understand it Wirecard had a written confirmation by two Phillipine banks that there is 2 biion in desposits. E&Y got suspicious, because the confirmations arrived really fast, much faster thank banks usually take to issue these papers. So they sent a guy in the Phillipines to the banks to investigate. The banks claimed that there are no deposits and the documents were issues by an employee without authorization.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Anyone remember L&H, the famous computer translation company that went bankrupt in 2001? At one point they had a whopping market capitalization of almost 10 billion US$!

IIRC they also claimed that a large sum of money somehow got missing in Asia (South Korea I think). But given that the management actually went to jail, it seems the fraud actually originated in their headquaters in Belgium.

<comment><USER23> I didn't when you wrote L&H, but on searching and finding it was

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernout_%26_Hauspie](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernout_%26_Hauspie)

I do indeed remember them and their software.

<comment><USER34> I didn't remember them by name but after reading the wikipedia page, I remember they are the company which acquired Drangon systems in liu of a large number of stocks.

<comment><USER33> If I remember the story correctly the founders of Dragon Systems sued the bank that handled the acquisition. They claimed the bank convinced them to take stock and not cash at a point in time when the same bank already had been preparing for the inevitable bankruptcy of L&H. They lost because M&A was considered a different branch of the bank and not supposed to know about the imminent bankruptcy.

BTW: The founders of Dragon Systems are a married couple with an interesting bio too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> It's a shame that this company is part of the DAX, Germany's large cap index of its 30 largest companies. I hope they get expelled soon

<comment><USER6> They already are, their participation drives down with the market cap :D

On a more serious note - Merkel will have to do some serious firing and locking up in prison. At least I hope she does that, if not frauds will only multiply.

<comment><USER13> Merkels party CDU is very much the political arm of the corrupt old boys network. E.g. her former minister of finance, now head of the Bundestag, Schäuble, was deeply involved in a corruption scandal. Currently that same network seems to rear its head in the Amthor scandal.

Therefore I doubt very much that a lot of firing and locking up will happen, just some token amount with a sprinkling of shuffling positions and failing upwards...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> We really do need some process where by the accounts of large companies are reconciled with reality. I understand completely that this is not possible for all the numbers investors want to see (Profit is made up after all). But there should be a requirement to report certain hard numbers (cash revenues and cash held for instance) that should be audited and correct to the penny on a given day. If a business claims to have received 1m $/£/E in cash sales, they should be able to show their accountant credit transactions for that amount and 0.1% of those should be checked by calling the customer and confirming they paid the money. The same applies for cash on hand on a historic day.

Nothing will make fraud impossible, but right now it's just so easy...

<comment><USER37> Which is exactly the usual audit procedure - a sample of account balances and turnover is tested (i.e., confirmed) with the counterparty as part of testing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Can anyone recommend a good overview read of this whole thing? I seem to have missed it all.

<comment><USER39> There is none yet, but there is enough material for a Netflix mini-series.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> The article didn't have more details on it but it seems like EY didn't sign off on accounts after KPMG report indicated fraud. Shouldn't the blame lie on EY as well, as they failed in their job as an auditor, shouldn't they have been the ones to found as they had all the internal info while auditing.

</comment><comment><USER41> Sorry for my ignorance, according to the source, Wirecard hired KPMG last year to conduct an independent audit to address allegations by FT.

Why would anyone who run the fraud hired an auditor to expose their fraud? Do they think they can get away with it? Why not just ignore the allegations?

</comment><comment><USER42> As reported by the German press:

[https://m.dw.com/en/wirecard-ceo-markus-braun- resigns/a-5387...](https://m.dw.com/en/wirecard-ceo-markus-braun- resigns/a-53870101)

</comment><comment><USER43> Centralization and scale are amazingly efficient but when things go wrong it similarly scales all the way. But hey, at least it wasn't 2.3 trillion this time.

</comment><comment><USER44> 2 Billion? Isn't that just a regular burn rate for a fintech startup? I'll assume this company just gets some funding then continues on its way.

<comment><USER45> Who's gonna fund a company that just exposed itself as having fraudulent accounting?

<comment><USER46> SoftBank

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> When people think about a billion dollar exit for a startup founder, not exactly this picture comes up :-)

</comment><comment><USER48> Ah, crypto and fraud, peas in a pod.

</comment><comment><USER49> Someone explain to me why MS was forced to allow competing browsers and today Apple forces you to use their own browser engine?

Isn't that a double standard?

<comment><USER50> I mean, I can, but this is probably the wrong thread.

You're also slightly off about "allowing" competing browsers. MS never limited other browsers in Windows; you were always free to download another (and there were others). It just gave IE an absurd inside track by including it FREE with Windows and making it the default, which was hugely damaging to Netscape (which, at the time, was charging money for a browser; yes, this sounds bananas today).

This was a textbook example of monopolistic behavior, since at the time Microsoft OWNED computing. There wasn't another viable platform. The Mac was, at the time, circling the drain. Desktop Linux didn't exist. If you wanted a computer, you ran Windows, full stop. MSFT was leveraging their enormous monopoly power to give them a monopoly in _another_ market (browsers), and that's a big anti-trust no-no.

Apple has nowhere near that kind of market power. The iPhone is a _minority player_ in a huge market -- much bigger than the PC market Microsoft dominated in the 90s. Android holds a majority position there.

This means Apple doesn't have a monopoly. You can, and people do, buy something else that allows you do configure basically whatever you want. Apple isn't distorting or damaging the phone/mobile market with their behavior, as MSFT was.

Apple definitely DOES have enormous influence and power in mobile computing. That's very true. But because they are a minority player, they don't _control_ the market. And so there's no real legal argument on antitrust grounds to compel them to do anything differently.

<comment><USER51> Was this an issue just because Netscape charged for their browser?

Microsoft includes a lot of stuff with the OS, from calculator, file manager, rudimentary word processor, ... How is a browser any different? I understand now we know that the ads and search engine control became vital but I doubt it was predicted at the time. Maybe the regulators believed MS was trying to get Netscape out of the business only to start charging a premium for IE.

<comment><USER50> Partly, because MSFT deliberately included a competing product in the OS for free to destroy Netscape's business, and doing this from a position of near- total control of the ENTIRE personal computing market is literally the definition of monopolistic behavior.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


4chan warnings about more school shootings aren't "satire" - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/2015/10/05/the_beta_rebellion_has_begun_4chan_warnings_about_more_school_shootings_arent_satire_theyre_sick/ <comment> vezzy-fnord It's a slow news day when one's identity-charged tripe diatribe after having spent a few minutes on /r9k/, is published as a major column.

Such demagoguery is by now well known to be the least productive thing to do after a mass shooting.</comment>


How to move $50B in bad debt off the balance sheet (Lehman report) - <AUTHOR> http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202446146932&src=EMC-Email&et=editorial&bu=Law.com&pt=Law.com%20Newswire%20Update&cn=LAWCOM_NewswireUpdate_20100312&kw=Unwanted%20Attention%3A%20Linklaters%20Nabs%20Starring%20Role%20in%20the%20Lehman%20Report

<comment><USER2> If it is classified as a "sale" rather than financing, shouldn't the bank have to pay sales tax (which would amount to billions)?

<comment><USER3> The rules are different for purely financial transactions. It doesn't make sense for someone to pay an 8% sales tax on buying a 90-day T-bill with a .14% yield.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I don't get it. If it was "blessed" by an English law firm that indicated that the transaction was only valid under English law, then how does it still apply under American law? It sounds like they broke the rules, they just made it look like they weren't to anyone who wasn't paying close enough attention.

<comment><USER5> The "blessing", to my knowledge, concerned compliance with accounting rules and therefore depends on the accounting standards Lehman used, which are internationally accepted ones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> That should be fraud, the entire purpose was to mislead.

I wonder who else has done this, or continues to do this. Seems like a major loophole for banks to exploit.

<comment><USER7> Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, do you have anything remotely insightful to add?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If Lehman did it, is it not reasonable to assume that others did it as well?

What lies beneath TARP/TALF/TANF etc. I wonder ... ?</comment>


Why are so many people in Silicon Valley arrogant? - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/Silicon-Valley/Why-are-so-many-people-in-Silicon-Valley-arrogant

<comment><USER2> Because they are young and not yet humbled by bad things happening in life.</comment>


Honey: Chrome Extension that Automatically Finds Coupon Codes - <AUTHOR> http://joinhoney.com/

<comment><USER2> I don't have a problem with this extension per se, but I have a feeling that browser extensions really start to go the same route browser toolbars went.

I want my browser to be fast, I don't want a bunch of stuff in the background.

</comment><comment><USER3> "Patent pending"? jeeze.. you can't be serious. There are so many existing and well-known extensions doing exactly that and even I made one myself ages ago.. nothing newsworthy (especially HN) in this promo post.

</comment><comment><USER4> Q: What browsers does the Honey browser extension support?

Honey's browser plugin currently works on Chrome and Firefox. Support for other browsers is coming soon.</comment>


NodeBox: an app that lets you create 2D visuals using Python - <AUTHOR> http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Home <comment><AUTHOR> I post this in part because a colleague recommended it and says it's brilliant, and partly to ask if there's a non-Mac equivalent.

Anyone?

<comment><USER2> The non-mac equivalent that I've used is matplotlib: <http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/gallery.html></comment></comment>


Coase's Penguin, Or, Linux and the Nature of the Firm - <AUTHOR> http://www.yalelawjournal.org/article/coases-penguin-or-linux-and-the-nature-of-the-firm <comment><USER2> Date: 2002

Link to a regular pdf: [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9238/534e7836ce094b2498b358...](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9238/534e7836ce094b2498b3587b10c89b733afe.pdf)</comment>


China Spent $29B on Foreign Intellectual Property Rights - <AUTHOR> http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-11/06/c_137586065.htm <comment><USER2> Thus proving the real problem. China is just doing too well. I can't wait for them to put the last nail in democratic society.</comment>


Finally a way to mark your Github project as abandoned - <AUTHOR> http://jeffkreeftmeijer.com/2010/finally-a-way-to-mark-your-github-project-as-abandoned/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+jeffkreeftmeijer+(Jeff+Kreeftmeijer)

<comment><USER2> Dup: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1951310>

The URL there doesn't have all the feedburner crap ...

<comment><AUTHOR> Aww. I'll pay more attention next time.</comment></comment>


Extracting a 19 Year Old Code Execution from WinRAR - <AUTHOR> https://research.checkpoint.com/extracting-code-execution-from-winrar/ <comment><USER2> Note, if you need to extract files you might be interested in the "pure python 3" module:

[https://pypi.org/project/acefile/](https://pypi.org/project/acefile/)

(I'm posting this in the different threads in case anyone hits them during a search.)</comment>


Getting root access on a Tesla Model S - <AUTHOR> http://www.su-tesla.space/ <comment><USER2> If he's talking about getting root on that big screen in the middle, it's been done before:

[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/let-the-hacking- begi...](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/let-the-hacking-begin-model- s-parts-on-the-bench.58951/)

However, the guy who did it before told everyone exactly how he did it, without any "secret script sorry :^)".

<comment> Hemera- wk57 got direct access to the CID by unsoldering the ROM from a salvaged screen. I honestly wouldn't have the guts to do that.

<comment><USER3> This is an easy way to go if you are good at soldering under a microscope to put it back together. I've considered doing it this way but I'd prefer to figure out the software route...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> "This goes through a secret process that eventually gets me connected to the CID (touchscreen) with root privileges."

give me back my 2 mins, please.

<comment><USER5> I'm pretty sure that wasn't disclosed as lots of dangerous things could be done in the wrong hands.

<comment><USER6> Like... um.... what, exactly? People could take control of their own vehicles and exercise the privileges that ought to come with ownership?

The ability to jailbreak a Tesla is the only thing that might make me interested in owning one.

<comment><USER7> It seems like the new car that you just created should have to be checked out and approved as street legal. How do you know that the changes you have made still meet safety regulations and the like?

<comment><USER6> One could reasonably propose that things ought to work that way, but that is not, in fact, the way things have ever worked, at least not in the USA. People routinely make very substantial alterations to their cars and continue driving them on the street with no legal process involved. "Street legal" is not an exacting standard and no inspections are required for an altered vehicle (so far as I know, anyway) beyond whatever routine process your state requires as part of the registration process. (Here in Washington state, that's just an emissions test.)

I used to be part of a 4x4 club; we routinely rebuilt our trucks' suspensions, changed out the gearing, replaced wheels and tires with bigger ones, installed power steering systems adapted from some other type of vehicle, swapped our engines or axles out for bigger, tougher ones, swapped out entire drivetrains - you name the component, somebody in the club probably modified or replaced it.

We weren't even doing anything unusual by recreational offroading standards, much less hot-rodding standards. We weren't building tube frames, and most of us didn't modify our frames at all. Nobody had ripped off all the sheet metal on their truck and replaced it all with a molded fiberglass replica; none of us installed superchargers or nitrous injection or anything like that. I'd guess no more than half of us even knew how to weld.

Modified cars are on the road all the time; you've seen thousands of them whether you realize it or not. If this were a big safety problem, there would have been a moral panic about it decades ago. Tweaking the software in a Tesla is completely insignificant by comparison. No, it doesn't need to be checked out and approved.

<comment><USER7> Tweaking the software in autopilot could cause it to kill you and anyone else on the road. For example, you might accidentally make it not return control to the driver when it can no longer navigate or cause it to accelerate out of control. It isn't clear to me that increasing horsepower or changing the wheels is as significant. There are a bunch of common modifications that are outright illegal like high/low-riding changes, emissions, lighting, etc. though it is on a state by state basis in the US.

[http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2012/07/the- top-5-ille...](http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2012/07/the- top-5-illegal-car-modifications.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> URL should probably point to article itself, and not blog's homepage.

[http://www.su-tesla.space/2016/04/hack-s.html](http://www.su- tesla.space/2016/04/hack-s.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> As a tech and automotive geek, I find this interesting and would be interested in a deeper investigation into the legal implications between the manufacturer and hacker (software licensing, etc.) as well as how, if any, existing motor vehicle laws apply.

For context, I drive an old Jeep that has various modifications (AKA lifted, with various accommodations due to that fact) and I've given little thought to any legal ramifications. That said, I do live in state (Colorado) that, legally, has little to nothing to say regarding such modifications, or only addresses them broadly. In contrast, Utah has a number of very specific regulations on such modifications.

</comment><comment><USER10> since I was (for some reason) wanting more details, [https://blog.lookout.com/blog/2015/08/07/hacking-a- tesla/](https://blog.lookout.com/blog/2015/08/07/hacking-a-tesla/) is something I came across

</comment><comment><USER11> Would love to hear how the IC-connected network was setup.

> _disconnect the cable from the IC and plug my earlier cable in to it. This > allowed me to make a special REST call to the CID_

So the cable from the side panel connects to the above network via VPN? Interesting approach :)

</comment><comment><USER12> There was something about this recently where someone connected in to their Tesla. Then their phone rang and it was Tesla engineers telling them to stop. Did you get a phone call?

<comment><USER13> I'm not sure that actually happened. Recently Jason Hughes (wk057) released some info he found in firmware (P100D) and Tesla engineers rolled back his firmware remotely, but no one called him AFAIK.

<comment><USER14> And Tesla said they didn't do it or it was not done in retaliation but rather to resolve an issue with the firmware version wk057 was running. I think it eventually got reverted but can't be sure of that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hm, now wait for what could happen next:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11255160](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11255160)

</comment><comment><USER16> bugcrowd.com/tesla

</comment><comment><USER17> sure would like to take a look at that script

<comment><USER18> It is ubuntu....

#!/bin/bash sudo su</comment></comment>