Steal This Idea: Thoughts on DabbleDB, Filemaker and Innovation - <AUTHOR> http://stealthisidea.com/articles/dabbledb-thoughts/

<comment><USER2> This article was posted in June 2006. How much innovation has happened since then?

I ask because I've been throwing together a toy django app that lets users manage arbitrary data using a filing cabinet metaphor because I figured some users might find the idea familiar. I'd love to build a product that steals some market share from spreadsheets.

anyone have any thoughts?

<comment><USER3> Since launching, Dabble has added stuff for mapping and creating forms so other people can sanely add data to your database in a way you control, among other things. Certainly Avi Bryant et al have not let DabbleDB rot on the vine.

The best thing about Dabble is its implementation knowingly breaks all the rules about how scalability ought to work.</comment></comment>


Google wants to get rid of URLs but doesn't know what to use instead - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/google-wants-to-get-rid-of-urls-but-doesnt-know-what-to-use-instead/ <comment><USER2> We build websites for small business, many biz owners:

\- Do not know what or where the "address bar" is.

\- To visit their website, they will "google" (the verb) their website address (or biz name) - which leads to newly launched website owners thinking their website isn't accessible/online.

Chrome and other browsers combining the address bar with the search box has only made this situation worse.

<comment><USER3> My side of the phone call (sometimes multiple times with the same customer):

What do you mean "the site isn't coming up"?

OK, I'll take a look right now... yep, it loads just fine.

Can't find it? Just type the domain name in to the address bar...

No, that's the search bar, I mean, you can use that, but it's only been a couple of days and [search engine] probably hasn't indexed it yet.

OK, if you want to look at it right now, then type the name of your website into the text field at the very top.

What do you mean it still isn't coming up? It loaded fine for me.

...It's not in the list of links... OK, that's still [search engine] results. How about this, type the name of your site, plus the dot com, and nothing else. Got it?

OK, now press enter.

Tada!

<comment><USER4> I wonder why you don't adjust your expectations?

<comment><USER2> What would "adjust your expectations" look like exactly? While these clients are the minority, it happens often enough that I'd like to find a solution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It sounds to me like this is more of a problem with the _domain_ system, and the way it embeds into a URL, than a problem with URLs as a whole. Browsers have already largely hacked off the protocol in the front, and even Google couldn't get rid of the path & querystring (though we can continue to work towards hiding more of it from the average user if that is desirable), so it seems likely this is all about the domain, and the difficulty of mapping what domains really mean to what end users think it means.

To boil it down to one example, how do you solve the problem of someone setting up secure.citigroup.accountmanagement.com and have an end-user understand that that's a phishing site? I mean, for goodness' sake, authority in the DNS chain is read _backwards_. How many users are going to read that and see ".com" as the root and technically most important element, rather than "secure"?

I'm not commenting on any possible solution since this article doesn't even sketch one. I'm just trying to apply the principle-of-charity to the article and come up with the most plausible interpretation, and the one most interesting to have a discussion about.

My own commentary is that I'm not sure if there is an answer that's any better than beating on domain names until they work as well as possible. The only other alternative I see is a centralized authority of some sort, and while that is likely to potentially work better than what we have now for maybe about 5 years, the negative consequences after that as the central authority learns to spread its wings and exert control to extract money from people and abuse its authority to push some agenda outweigh the safety.

<comment><USER6> _> My own commentary is that I'm not sure if there is an answer that's any better than beating on domain names until they work as well as possible._

GUId per domain. No hierarchy. Peer-to-peer sharing. Cryptographically signed user-comprehensible metadata that's resolved through some quorum protocol or stored in a blockchain.

URLs are fine, but the idea that identity of a website is embedded into its "location" is silly. Google owns gmail.com, but Steam/valve doesn't own steam.com. How am I supposed to know that as a user?

Really, the usecases for domain names names have completely changed since the time DNS was conceived.

<comment><USER5> "GUId per domain. No hierarchy. Peer-to-peer sharing. Cryptographically signed user-comprehensible metadata that's resolved through some quorum protocol or stored in a blockchain."

That mostly solves technical problems, but technical problems are (probably) not what is driving this effort. Is a user supposed to know that d6998147-a7a2-485a-ac5f-74dddebfe070 is legimately Steam, but d69a2b76-96ca-4d7e-b25c-c5a69848e070 is not? Who verifies the metadata for accuracy? Who says you can't register Bank Of America? Those problems, and the other problems like them, are the hard problems, not cryptographically signing the answers to those hard problems. Crypto is easy by comparison.

<comment><USER6> The problem with DNS is that it mixes a lot of almost unrelated problems together. Here are some things domain names solve:

1\. Aliasing/abstraction of IP addresses. Being able to change physical location or server of a service without reconfiguring everything.

2\. Mnemonics for getting to a particular server.

3\. Indicator that a server belongs to a particular organization or company.

4\. Grouping services together so they can share resources (like cookies).

DNS solves all of those problems, but not particularly well.

#1: You need to deal with a lot of BS when all you need is stable identifier.

#2: There is a lot of contention around domain names. Users prefer to use search instead of typing long domains. There is no particular reason why my mnemonics should be the same as for everyone else.

#3: Similar-looking domain names used for phishing. Users don't understand DNS hierarchy. Expiration. Hijacking. A tree structure isn't enough anymore. And so on. This one is particularly bad. Like you said, it's not just a technical problem.

#4: Just look at HTTP security headers and all the iframe issues.

The problem #3 can be solved separately from the rest. The rest are relatively simple technical problems if you consider them in isolation and we could solve them much better than DNS does.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Whatever Google comes up with I'm pretty confident that I will disagree heavily with. URLs is fantastic, solves the problem well and basically has little to no issues. There is no need to fix something that is not broken.

Thanks, but could you please stop trying to control the web Google?

<comment><USER4> It's not about getting rid of URLs, it's about not displaying them to most users. From the Wired article Ars probably based their writeup on (Ars links it):

 _" People have a really hard time understanding URLs," says Adrienne Porter Felt, Chrome's engineering manager. "They're hard to read, it's hard to know which part of them is supposed to be trusted, and in general I don't think URLs are working as a good way to convey site identity. So we want to move toward a place where web identity is understandable by everyone—they know who they're talking to when they're using a website and they can reason about whether they can trust them. But this will mean big changes in how and when Chrome displays URLs. We want to challenge how URLs should be displayed and question it as we're figuring out the right way to convey identity."_

<comment><USER8> > It's not about getting rid of URLs, it's about not displaying them to most > users.

And one of their incentives in doing so is that Google is an alternative to URLs. Already many users Google 'facebook' and click on the first link rather than just typing 'facebook.com' (or 'face' TAB ENTER).

Although I don't believe I saw it in the article, it's in Google's interest to mediate all access to the Internet for consumers — this isn't fundamentally different from Facebook's VPN. It's not in users' interest, of course.

If they cared about security they could do something like display the domain & the path separately, maybe on different lines (with maybe colour used to distinguish HTTPs vice HTTP):

       news.ycombinator.com
       reply?id=…

<comment><USER9> People searching 'facebook.com' on google seems like an indication that urls are already broken.

<comment><USER10> People searching 'facebook.com' on google seems like a user education problem to me.

In fact, if I was Google (and I was less scrupulous), that's the kind of behavior I would encourage: train users to type destinations into Google, serve up the results using AMP, obfuscate the whole thing by eliminating URLs, then users will just stay in Google's ecosystem and never leave.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Maybe instead we can have little badges called "Googs" that'll direct you to the AMP version of a website. Obviously, you'll need to pay the Google for this privilege. They'll make the design open source, but since their browser and Firefox will only support the official "Googs" implementation, oss versions will be dead from the start.

Letting a commercial company define a breaking web standard change won't have any repercussions whatsoever.

<comment><USER12> Sounds like the 2018 equivalent to "Would you like to know more? Just enter AOL Keyword: BAD IDEA"

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Similar to the Google push for AMP pages:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17920720](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17920720) [https://www.polemicdigital.com/google-amp-go-to- hell/](https://www.polemicdigital.com/google-amp-go-to-hell/)

There's a great comment about the link between these two over there:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17923156](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17923156)

</comment><comment><USER14> Arstechnica isn't helping, the title and the article makes it seem like google owns the web and is in charge of the standards.

</comment><comment><USER15> Do we really need to change the url system? What if we make it super-easy to register a TLD?

What if there is an alternative system to verify that a website is owned by someone? For example, what if the icon needs to be registered with some kind of trademark-like entity, and the browsers made the icon more prominent?

<comment><USER16> It is super easy to register a tld. Type in the name, add to cart, purchase.

Using it is more difficult.

<comment><USER17> That's for second/third-level domains (depending on the scheme of the TLD they're under). To run a TLD you have to apply to ICANN and provide evidence that you will actually be able to run the registry.

<comment><USER16> Oh, you're right, I wasn't paying attention.

Why would making that easy be a good thing, though? Seems like it would just lead to tld squatting and poor performance .

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It makes a lot of sense to me to redesign how we display URLs. Right now, we show them as a singular identifier, where the only thing we can tell the user is to search for things inside that string of characters (look for https, or look for bankname.com). We don't need to show the whole string of characters.

It seems very sensible to me to take the URL for what it is and communicate that back to the user:

\- The protocol doesn't matter much to most people, except the implications it has, so maybe show "encrypted" or "not encrypted" (and fallback to protocol name for FTP and the like, most people won't ever touch that without knowing what it is)

\- The domain is interesting: there's the TLD, which doesn't _really_ matter, and the second level name, which matters a lot. Subdomains matter less. How about we show it as a much more prominent "[ domain.com ]" with a less obvious subdomain.

\- Paths are pretty generic all around: incrementally deeper descriptors separated by forward slashes. Could definitely show that as a breadcrumbs- style thing (might also make people care more about readable paths, which is nice).

\- The query string should probably be shown as "tags" with a key and value, since that's what they are.

\- The hash is a bit icky, but it might be enough to highlight that you're linking to a place in the page.

Could be displayed as something like this: [https://i.imgur.com/RfJoP23.png](https://i.imgur.com/RfJoP23.png)

</comment><comment><USER19> Welp, time to be afraid then. Google does not wait to find a replacement when they don't like something. They destroy first, and then never get around to coming up with anything to replace it. So get ready to embrace a future with no address bar and with Google search being the only way to find and navigate to pages. Just look at what they did with vertical side tabs in Chrome for a perfect example. Google said they "didn't like how it looked" and "wanted to find a better solution" so, despite the option being a hidden setting you had to dig to even find and enable, they ripped it out of the browser. And to this day, years later, there is no solution at all to having lots of tabs open. The browser just rapidly fills the bar with tabs, shrinking them to utter uselessness.

But at least Google doesn't have to tolerate something they find aesthetically displeasing.

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm a bit late to the party here, and the following doesn't address a lot of the concerns in the article (nor does it actually get rid of URLs), but for anyone interested in alternatives to horribly long URLs or incredibly opaque URL shorteners I made a fun little tool [0].

It's called ShortestSearch and in essence could be looked at as a reverse Google in that you give Google search terms and it gives you a list of websites, but for ShortestSearch you give it a website and it gives you a list of search terms. All with the aim to perfect the art of "It should be the first result if you Google 'x y z' ".

Also found the part of the article where it describes its own URL strangely enjoyable.

[0] [https://oisinmoran.com/ShortestSearch/](https://oisinmoran.com/ShortestSearch/)

</comment><comment><USER6> _> "Some URLs are good for sharing, others aren't."_

This is one of the things that definitely can be improved on. Having something either in the URL or in page metadata to say "this is linkable". This doesn't warrant a replacement, however.

</comment><comment><USER21> Navigation is the problem.

Maybe go back to lists and hierarchies of lists like the old days. With `UUID` behind it. Lists are at least navigatable.

So every URL would be part of at least one list and `URLs` point to lists. Or something like that.

Example: Sites-I-Use List can be shown in the address-bar instead of the url as green while a site I never used before can be shown as red. That's not even taking organization into account, or all the other myriad of useful usecases.

<comment><USER22> whoa there, let's not talk about sense

<comment><USER21> So its a bad idea? Well, at least its mine.

Anyway how often have you used URLs list-like?! And how often have you used Google(which offers List by Search)?

<comment><USER22> I should have added an /s

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> It's a bit disingenuous ars technica ledes with a screenshot of a homograph attack that Chrome mitigated in March 2017, and really doesn't relate to the article. [https://www.xudongz.com/blog/2017/idn- phishing/](https://www.xudongz.com/blog/2017/idn-phishing/)

</comment><comment><USER24> The "World Wide Web" was based on only three concepts. A document markup language, an document "universal resource location" (URL), and a tool that could use the URL to retrieve the document and render the markup.

Breaking/obfuscating/demoting the URL is so fundamental I am shocked it would even be suggested.

</comment><comment><USER25> Given Google hasn't laid out any particular solution and they're still being criticized, it seems to me that HN is so cynical of large tech companies exercising their monopoly power (because of past practices) that they're afraid of any effort to rethink the fundamentals of the web.

Which on one level makes sense. It's good to protect things that have made the web great. However, it's also good to maintain a spirit of innovation and willingness to question those things that people assume has to work a certain way just because it's always worked that way.

When there's a specific proposal, and if that proposal is a bad one, attack it on the merits. But there are real problems of security and user friendliness when it comes to URLs and I don't see anybody else working on it. Does anybody really think that it's impossible to improve and the way we do things now is exactly the way we should be doing it 100 years from now?

</comment><comment><USER26> "...go to www dot COMPANY dot com, or AOL keyword COMPANY..."

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm not sure URLs have any major downsides. The full complexity is beyond most people but most people don't need to understand anything more than how to type www.something.com, it is the web application owner who has to understand them and where most security problems live. Security is only a problem if the server or web application have not been setup correctly.

It's no different than visiting a shop or a house where you should be able to expect certain regulations to be met (insurance, building codes etc) and I can see more countries starting to enforce country-wide codes for web sites, annual checks, registrations, whatever for people to be allowed to trade in that country.

</comment><comment><USER28> Is the implication that they want us all to use AMP?

</comment><comment><USER29> Half-baked idea: replace it with the x509 subject?

The route could be displayed less prominently to the right.

Preserve normal omnibar behavior for input.

</comment><comment><USER30> Browsers should only reable URLs, that means GET parameters shouldn't work.

</comment><comment><USER31> RealPaths (TM)

(ref to Real Names, for those not old enough to remember)

</comment><comment><USER32> so, lets see..

we'll need a protocol. and a port. and a host. and then a resource on that host. and to combine them together.

how about:

foo.html\80:net.host\\\:http

totally cool!

<comment><USER33> That's innovative! I don't know why we haven't been doing this before! \s

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> So how can I even link someone to content if this were the case?...

<comment><USER35> You'll have to use their "new" version of a URL.

Sounds like Google is becoming a bully ;p. They shouldn't reset standards of World Wide Web.</comment></comment>


What is the oldest continuously operating electronic computer, and where is it? - <AUTHOR> https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-oldest-continuously-operating-electronic-computer-and-where-is-it?share=1 <comment><USER2> _"This would be Voyager 1 Computer Command System turned on in July, 1977"_

Is that correct? Voyager 2 launched before Voyager 1 (August 20 versus September 5, 1977. The numbering was chosen because Voyager 2 overtook Voyager 1), so it might have been switched on earlier, too.

Also ([https://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch6-2.html](https://history.nasa.gov/computers/Ch6-2.html)):

 _"Although both CCSs are always powered, rarely are both Flight Data Systems running, and both attitude control computers are never turned on at the same time."_

Can these systems be powered, but not running? [https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/voyager-mission- annive...](https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/voyager-mission-anniversary- computers-command-data-attitude-control/) leaves that option open:

 _"The CCS typically remained on at all times, but the FDS would usually only operate one at a time, and the AACS would only ever operate one at a time. The idea was that regular dormancy of computer systems not actively in use would help maintain the lifespan of the systems."_

</comment><comment><USER3> Interesting</comment>


A VC's Personal List of Consumer Startup Ideas - <AUTHOR> http://www.mahesh-vc.com/blog/a-vcs-personal-list-of-startup-ideas <comment><USER2> I think the facebook rooms app is similar to the mobile community he mentioned</comment>


Android apps on F-Droid will eventually lose access to Google Play purchases - <AUTHOR> https://www.xda-developers.com/f-droid-android-apps-google-play-purchases/ <comment><USER2> Headline as posted to HN:

 _Android apps on F-Droid will eventually lose access to Google Play purchases_

Actual headline:

 _Some Android apps on F-Droid will eventually lose access to Google Play purchases_</comment>


LinkedIn announces Global Women's hackday event in Mountain View and New Delhi - <AUTHOR> http://blog.linkedin.com/2012/06/22/developher-hackday/

<comment><USER2> If we keep telling women that they need a "women's hack day", a such and such women's event, etc, all we are doing is creating a bigger gender disparity.

I start to think of these events as pure PR stunts, rather than Linkedin et al. tackling any underlying gender issues.

<comment><USER3> I think you need to back up your reasoning for how this creates a bigger gender gap. The aim of this event is not to create cliques of female programmers who only work at 100% female companies and only attend womens' events, which would do as you say, but to try and encourage more females to enter/stay in the industry, which would reduce gender disparity by moving the proportion of male to female members towards 0.5.

<comment><USER2> gender disparity isn't about equaling ratios (i.e. volume), it's about aptitude and ability. That is exactly what I mean by "bigger gender gap".

Awareness should focus on abilities and not about "lets get a 50/50 gender balance for the sake of equality". Creating a gender biased event only promotes the wrong reasons why women should go into software development (or any other industry).

<comment><USER3> You're assuming that the only reason that women do not enter the industry is because they do not have the aptitude or ability, which is just plain false. This event isn't about saying, girls do this because we need more of you, it's saying, girls do this, because society suffers as a result of gender stereotypes. Having an event to counter society's flaws is not the same as having an event to artificially manipulate the perceived quality of the attendees.

Also, your second paragraph makes little to no sense. The event is not going to persuade women to enter the software development industry because of some irrational reason (maybe you could actually say what reasons you think the event promotes?), it's there to reduce the effect of our culture on people who want to get into software development. No one is handing people who attend this a free pass to getting a job in the industry; ability does still matter.

And also, I did not say that .5 is the goal, but moving towards that would be a step in the right direction. I looked up the male to female ratio of a random university course (UCL Computer Science). The ratio there was 77:23 male:female. That's quite a long way off 0.5. And before you say I am putting equality before ability, ability doesn't come from nowhere. While software development continues to be so male dominated, or at least, seen as a male career by society at large, we will exclude god knows how many brilliant people from the youngest ages. Having outreach programs is _not_ a bad thing, and to think otherwise is to be ignorant of one's privilege.

<comment><USER2> no, that is not what I'm saying. do not imply that i'm being sexist in any way, which i'm not.

the labour market, when it comes to comparing gender ratios, is a zero sum game. there are dozens of other well respected industries which are female dominated, and as far as i know, there are no men groups organizing men only events in those female dominated industries/jobs.

you are right on one thing: "Having outreach programs is _not_ a bad thing" what is morally wrong and ironic is the fact that an outreach effort excludes 50% of the population.

<comment><USER4> >what is morally wrong and ironic is the fact that an outreach effort excludes 50% of the population.

Pure nonsense. In the (apparently) hostile to women environment that is tech, it makes perfect sense to have women-centric meetups so that women can feel comfortable exploring technology and develop bonds with other women that can help them counteract bias.

What you should be questioning is why there is a need for a women centric event. Dismissing these issues and turning it around to ask why its excluding _you_ (lets be honest here, this is exactly what you're doing) is the only thing morally wrong here.

<comment><USER2> >Dismissing these issues and turning it around to ask why its excluding you (lets be honest here, this is exactly what you're doing)

No, it is excluding part of the problem.

But hey, if your approach is to teach _women_ "don't get raped" rather than tell _society_ "don't rape", be my guest.

<comment><USER4> Your response has absolutely no connection to anything I said. It's rather impressive in its unrelatedness, actually.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Just wondering, if there was an Men's hackday, would that be look upon as a sexist event?

<comment><USER4> I would hope the readership around here could elevate the discussion beyond trite little quips such as this. Again I come away disappointed.

For future reference: these "reverse the roles" arguments are about as shallow and ignorant as one can get. The context is completely different for the "reversed" roles, rendering the comparison not even meaningless, but downright hostile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Really excited to see what comes out of this!

<comment><AUTHOR> I believe this is the first of its kind. Both women-centric and international. Props to the Slideshare team for coming up with the idea and putting it together!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> awesome. looking forward to this and more in the future.</comment>


Can 'Star Wars' get back on track after 22 years of crap? - <AUTHOR> https://www.timeline.com/stories/how-the-star-wars-films-were-made <comment><USER2> Nope because the world and society has changed. The world and society in 1977 was vastly different than it is today. They expect different stuff from movies now.

The classic characters are there to pass the torch on to the new characters for younger viewers. Disney took over and gave it the Miley Cyrus treatment, JJ Abrams sort of recycled Episode IV a New Hope script to make Episode VII The Force Awakens. Just changed names and roles.

I expect those who didn't see the episodes 4, 5, and 6 will like it. Those who did will see that there are elements they recycled from the original trilogy.

It is like the Star Trek reboots in a way, written for a younger generation and a new world.

If you are expecting to go back to 1977, you will be disappointed.

It is sort of like expecting Classic Rock to come back when most people want Pop or Rap. Like expecting the Beatles and Elvis to make new songs, but they are long gone.

<comment><AUTHOR> Some will argue that recycling elements of Episodes 4, 5, and 6 is exactly what they wanted and what's going to make the series good again.

<comment><USER2> What made the original trilogy good is that it was something we didn't see before. Like Lightsabers, Deathstars, Blasters, Droids, Jedis, Siths, a whole lot of aliens, space ships with hyperspace.

It was Luke Skywaler going on a journey to become a Jedi Knight and find out what happened to his father.

The prequels were about Anakin Skywalker, but they wrote them more like a soap opera and added Jar Jar for comedic relief. It was about Anakin going from slave to Jedi Knight and then on to the dark side to become Darth Vader. It was about the fall of the Republic and the rise of The Empire. But for some reason it flopped due to holes in the plot and other stuff. It wasn't as well written as episodes 4, 5, 6.

In fact due to a lot of books and movies just recycling stuff, I got into writing books to come up with original stories and characters. But I come to find out people don't want original stuff they want the recycled stuff. So people who recycle other books into their own books get best sellers while mine don't sell. They even get made into movies. Hunger Games was a recycled Battleground from Japan. Harry Potter was a recycled King Arthur but a Wizard instead of a Knight.

So I guess this current generation wants recycled stories? While I myself want original stories.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Transitioning to Restrictive Environments - <AUTHOR> I recently got a new job in this pandemic. I am so grateful that i got a new job with a good salary.   I am a devops engineer where in the past i had full access to all AWS environments and had my own laptop where I could install vagrant , virtualbox docker.   However, this new company is a fintech company and as such the security is very high on the laptop.  Basicaly my laptop is a dumb terminal to connect to a Windows remote desktop where I can't even install stuff.  so as such it is hard to make much progress.  Specially administering linux and kubernetes clusters. using Windows putty :(   .   Have any of you faced a similar transition and how were you able to handle this change. <comment><USER2> I'd look for a new job. There are so many DevOps jobs at $150k+ that are more inspiring and looking for you to be making the tech calls that will enable their future.

Hit up recruiters on LinkedIn, they will do all the work for you.</comment>


Researchers gave AI curiosity and it played video games all day - <AUTHOR> https://thenextweb.com/artificial-intelligence/2018/08/23/researchers-gave-ai-curiosity-and-it-played-video-games-all-day/ <comment><USER2> "It's not all good in the artificially intelligent neighborhood however – curious machines suffer from the same kind of problems that curious people do: They're easily distracted. When researchers pitted two curious Pong-playing bots against one another they forewent the match and decided to see how many volleys they could achieve together."</comment>


Show HN: Building Postman Collection Viewer with Vuejs Open Source - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/gopalkildoliya/postman-collection-viewer <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN, I am trying to build a documentation viewer for Postman collections. Here is the first view of it. It's open-source on git hub and demo is installed here [https://postman-collection- viewer.herokuapp.com](https://postman-collection-viewer.herokuapp.com)

So what do you think about it?

</comment><comment><USER2> Hey I just want to say I like the idea of this. Great stuff. The image in the repo is great for giving an idea on how it will look.

Perhaps you can load the Heroku demo with an example collection? This will allow mobile users to see how it functions withough having to load a collection themselves

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for suggestion. I'll add an example collection for default.</comment></comment>


Letter to an Aspiring Doctor - <AUTHOR> https://www.firstthings.com/article/2018/12/letter-to-an-aspiring-doctor <comment><USER2> This is a great letter. I do want to pause on this, though, about doctors prescribing opiates:

"The epidemic would have been avoidable if doctors as a whole had adopted a more critical and thoughtful approach"

He could be totally right about causes of that problem in that time. Currently, though, drug companies offer all kinds of financial incentives anyone that will increase drugs use in ways ranging from BS studies to incorrect info in textbooks to actual prescriptions. I've also read they give free samples.

Examples I found in quick DuckDuckGo:

[https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/04/11/medical- resea...](https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/04/11/medical-research- financial-conflicts-interest-matter/FfGc04GpdBXztO6m3kcT1I/story.html)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/27/us/medical-marketing- trea...](https://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/27/us/medical-marketing-treatment- incentive-doctor-writes-prescription-drug-company.html)

[http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1883449,0...](http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1883449,00.html)

This stuff could've been going on a long time. Maybe back when the push to use addictive drugs started. Or maybe that was just bad science like author says with the _current_ push involving massive amounts of corruption. I say don't forget what's going on in any current debate about drugs, though.

<comment><USER3> No, we didn't get free opioid samples. I can't imagine many docs got paid, either (I certainly got neither, nor would I have accepted them). What we actually got was a tsunami of alleged literature that said we should be doing more about non-malignant pain and that addiction was a minor risk. And, well, most of us bought it. Of course, look at who turned out to be behind it.

<comment><USER4> respectfully, what remotely well-trained doctor _didn't_ realize that part about an opiate being only a minor addiction risk was obviously bullshit?

<comment><USER5> The book Dreamland[1] chronicles a lot of this history... but a belief in science means that if scientific studies challenge some of your preexisting beliefs, you accept that evidence.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate- Epidem...](https://www.amazon.com/Dreamland-True-Americas-Opiate- Epidemic/dp/1511336404)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm surprised there was no mention about insurance and billing requirements, etc.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, that surprised me, too.

At one time in my life, I considered becoming a doctor, and had even started to take some of the required undergraduate coursework required to apply to medical school (organic chemistry, biology, etc.)

I started to talk to doctors about my choice, and nearly all of them advised me _not_ to go into medicine and often went into a long rant about dealing with insurance companies, billing issues and being told how to practice medicine by people with only a high school diploma at an insurance company.

I might be a doctor today if it wasn't for them. I think it was for the best: I found electrical engineering in Silicon Valley to be interesting and highly remunerative.

<comment><USER8> Same here. My father is a veterinarian, and we have many family friends who are doctors, and they all drove me away from going into medical practice. It is a tragic waste, because my brain is not compatible with many jobs, but medicine as practiced from the 90s back would have been up my bailiwick, as it gave my father, who shares most of my neuroatypical quirks, tremendous upward mobility.

But we are men of ethical scruples. I've dropped out of multiple grad programs due to witnessing academic fraud committed by students and professors working in tandem to keep money flowing into administrators who believe it is their utmost responsibility to perform a Nietzschean transvaluation of all values until a hauntingly extreme vices become considered virtues.

If I picked the medical profession, it would be because it would be so motivating to me to work in a highly motivating high-stakes environment where finding the moral thing to do is not so everloving _exhausting_.

Then have a statist regime begin to intimidate and relentlessly attempt to suborn you into destroying the voice of your conscience and the essential _goodness_ of the caring profession is utterly lost.

After leaving a university just a few credits shy of a degree due to learning that university administrators have knowingly destroyed the value of their degree by handing out 50% of their CS degrees to people the professors consider completely incompetent, I was not tempted in the slightest when the university attempted to bribe me with a full scholarship for their Ph.D. program and a guaranteed tenure track teaching job.

Why the hell would I want to perpetuate the scam of a completely decadent educational husk? I am terrified that misuse and/or ignorant design of the internet is threatening our social health; it is destroying the quality of people's education in return for monetary "profit". EDUCATION IS PROFIT IN ITSELF, money is merely potential energy that may help or hinder us toward enlightenment.

So this is why our "education" system is actually a "maleducation" system: universities as founded were dedicated to making the best possible people, but they are now committed to making the most possible profit.

<comment><USER9> Why not give us a list of universities and involved persons? The only reason they do it is because they don't think fraud will devalue their reputation, and if nobody finds out about it, it won't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Having been privy to the coarse reality of about 20 students who survived 5 years of medical school, followed by FY1, FY2, and junior positions in the NHS, the intellectualized "best effort" mulling-over in the article couldn't be further away from reality.

<comment><USER11> As a student doctor not quite yet exposed to the true harshness of reality I feel that this article does give some perspective into the issues that I have grappled with so far in my training. The frustrations, the conundrums, the uncertainty, the humanity.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> If you detect a stealth agenda between the lines, it's not your imagination. From wikipedia: _First Things is an ecumenical, conservative and, in some views, neoconservative[1][2][3][4][5] religious journal aimed at "advanc[ing] a religiously informed public philosophy for the ordering of society".[6] The magazine, which focuses on theology, liturgy, church history, religious history, culture, education, society and politics, is inter-denominational and inter-religious, representing a broad intellectual tradition of Christian and Jewish critique of contemporary society._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Things](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Things)

<comment><USER13> This jumped out at me.

"Abortion was originally intended to be performed in limited circumstances only, but now has become an inalienable right in any circumstances whatever—into which, indeed, it is impermissible to inquire."

followed coyly a paragraph later by

"This, of course, would have the corollary that mass murder by doctors would in theory be permissible, or even obligatory."

<comment><USER14> I do not believe the author was trying to be coy, but you are eliding the paragraph which gives the correct context to the latter statement:

> Moreover, though we pay lip service as a society to diversity and tolerance, > we increasingly demand uniformity. _A recent article in the New England > Journal of Medicine argued that doctors should not be permitted to opt out > of performing procedures that they considered unethical on the grounds of > conscientious objection. Once the profession, guided by ethicists, had > decided as a whole that something was ethically permissible, no doctor > should be allowed to go against the consensus._ This, of course, would have > the corollary that mass murder by doctors would in theory be permissible, or > even obligatory. Never mind: It can't happen here. But what was once > unthinkable can become thinkable very quickly.

The emphasized section above shows that his point is about overriding the moral judgement of individual doctors with legal fiat. In my mind, the risk is not just the law will someday mandate doctors participate in mass murder. Rather, that by eroding the judgement of doctors in the present, people who tend to think for themselves will self-select themselves out of the profession all together.

<comment><USER15> The actual debate among physicians is about the ethics of denying patients care to which they have a right. There is no law or legal fiat that forces physicians to do things they object to. We are instead held up to a standard of care by our professional regulatory bodies, which define how a physician should act in order to be considered a member of the profession. Most of the rules are around ethical behaviour. With regards to conscientious objection, our professional bodies attempt to balance a patient's right to access timely, effective, and _legal_ treatment against the physicians right to practice their personal ethics. How most bodies reach that balance is to say that physicians are required to provide timely referral to another provider for any service that they are morally objected to. For example, if you don't believe that abortion is right, you are _not_ required to provide them (not by the regulating body and definitely not by the law), but you also can't _prevent_ your patients from getting abortions--you need to refer them to someone who _can_. We can't force our personal ethics on our patients. The linked article appears to be arguing that doctors should be able to just say no, and thereby prevent someone from accessing the care that they want.

Ultimately, the patient is the most important person in medicine, the doctor comes second. This is not the law, this is medical ethics.

<comment><USER14> > The actual debate among physicians is about the ethics of denying patients > care to which they have a right. There is no law or legal fiat that forces > physicians to do things they object to.

I agree that is the status quo. The linked article is not necessarily talking about what the medical field currently looks like, but what it may look like over the coming decades. The author is concerned that law may one day override an individual doctor's conscientious objections.

I should also note that author lives and practiced in the U.K. and so if you are writing from an American context (as I am) then it may be that the state of medical ethics is somewhat different over there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> > You will no doubt hear a great deal about patient autonomy, the principle > that the patient must be allowed to choose treatment that he wants.

This must really be tough on doctors. I have a few people in my life who love seeking out medical advice but rarely follow it.

"You have to help me doc, I'll do anything!"

"Ok, do X"

"Well anything but that."

</comment><comment><USER17> Couldn't the negativity and cynicism of this letter be applied to most fields?</comment>


Waymo releases open dataset challenges - <AUTHOR> https://blog.waymo.com/2020/03/announcing-waymos-open-dataset-challenges.html <comment><USER2> I was pretty impressed when you shared your datasets with the community. Glad you're launching these virtual challenges now!</comment>


Don't do a start up. Be an intern. - <AUTHOR> http://boldstartup.com/9/#more-9

<comment><USER2> Love the idea, seems like a practical way to transition</comment>


Target Multiple Platforms & Framework Versions w/ Visual Studio Shared Projects - <AUTHOR> http://blog.nathan-taylor.net/2017/01/target-multiple-platforms-and-framework.html <comment><USER2> Good to know. Thanks for posting!</comment>


Should I use Railo to build my startup? - <AUTHOR>

My cofounder and I are getting ready to start building our app and the fastest way to a mvp is by using Railo. If we go this route and our startup is successful, could this limit us and what challenges might we face by using a application server that isn't mainstream? <comment><USER2> Use whatever gets you to market first. Deal with scale later.</comment>


[duplicate] Information Leaks via Safari's Intelligent Tracking Prevention [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2001/2001.07421.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> my mistake. this was already posted 2 days ago here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22119832](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22119832)</comment>


Ask HN: Fair buyout price for my partner? - <AUTHOR> I'm using a shadow account but I've been a member of HN for a while. My partner has asked me to buy him out of our business, and we're trying to come up with a fair buy out price.
Details:
- launched an app mid 2010 with a partner (50 / 50 split, not incorporated, no contract) - this year, gross revenue is $21,948 - net revenue, after income taxes taken off for 2011 will be $17,558 - i'm the designer + idea guy - he's the coder - equal time contributions so far (we'd both agree) - he'd like to keep 5% share and be an advisor
What do you think is a fair price? We're on good terms, no disagreements, everything's cool. What's fair? <comment><USER2> This is a common and interesting situation, so here are my thoughts.

1) If he wants to be bought out in cash & wants to stay on as an advisor (won't be doing product updates, coding tweaks, etc.), I'd look at sales trajectory of the app he worked on overtime. If it's trending down, it's okay to make an assumption that it will continue to do so, at some reasonable rate, an calculate the present value of projected future earnings / 2, assuming that you won't make any product changes. There is nothing wrong with keeping him on -on a rev share basis, but be sure you know what you are getting.

If he doesn't want a cash up-front buyout and just wants nothing to do with the app anymore, just keep his 50% share alive up until a max of the agreed upon future earnings of the app, as is.

However, if you are planning on keeping the app going, any agreement has to codify the terms of your relationship, contingent on accepting the buyout (consult an attorney). Who knows where things will go in the future and who else you will be bringing on-board.

If you are on good terms, coming up with a number shouldn't be a big deal. Especially, if he has a specific need for the money. If not, this might be the time to incorporate your venture, issue him some stock for contributions thus far and let him participate in whatever upside there may be.

Good luck,

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks for the detailed reply! he does indeed want a cash payment for his side of the business.

quick question:

when projecting future earnings, what time period is fair to assume?

the business has been steadily chugging along, growing some months, shrinking some months. we both planned to invest more time into it, but have been busy. the idea is that if i own most of it, then i'll have more incentive to invest new features into it.

<comment><USER2> I've heard that, "you know a deal is fair when neither party is happy". Which is to day, I have no idea.

Maybe 1/2 average rev from latest sales trend period x 12 months. I commend you on trying to be fair, b/c most deals don't happen that way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> There are a number of things your need to consider, not least that without a contract if your thing hits big time he'll want his 5%, and it'll be worthless.

What I'm trying to say is that a notional 5% is actually worth nothing unless you have some form of company set-up.

Here's where it starts to get tricky, because the set-up costs of the company are something that both of you should carry equally even if he's leaving. At the end of that process you'll have a value for each share based on the actual worth of the company. I'm not sure what the rules are in the states (or wherever you are) but in the UK at least the company is worth the sum of it's assets, at the start of it.

He'll be selling you 45% of his 50%, but you'll find that the sum of the assets to be far lower than the 17K that you have now. You may also want to consider what type of shareholding he has and what are his options for selling the 5% to someone else. That's just the tip of the iceberg of possibilities.

What you might be able to do, is agree a smaller payment now with a larger payment should the company meet certain targets, and nothing if it doesn't. That might give your partner the feeling that he still can benefit, and it gives you the flexibility to take control.

Honestly speaking the legal and accountancy fees in setting this whole thing up may just eat into the whole budget.

EDIT: On reflection, you could just say "here's 10K (if you're feeling generous) for your 50%, I'll set up a company worth 100 dollars that owns everything and give you 5% for which you pay 5 dollars."

Let us know how it turns out!

</comment><comment><USER4> You make an offer, he can either take it OR he can pay you that price and buy you out of the business. Sign an agreement to that effect before you make the offer.

Thus, you will offer enough that if he decides to buy you out, you'll be satisfied with the amount. This is the fair price. You cut the cake, he gets to choose which half to take.

<comment><AUTHOR> this sounds like a fair approach - a shotgun clause right? i feel emotionally invested in the product since it was my idea, but he put a bunch of time into it and we both believe in it.

<comment><USER5> "i feel emotionally invested in the product since it was my idea, but he put a bunch of time into it"

Ideas often aren't worth as much as execution.

<comment><AUTHOR> we've both contributed equal time to it, using our different skills. he's written more of the code, but the designs are mostly mine, and i've done all the research into advertising, CTR, managed our intern, and done the biz admin.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The buyout depends on the method in which you make your money. If you make money on advertising you have to make sure your users are as engaged as they have been since your launch (this often doesn't happen if it is a short game or you don't add features etc).

If you make money on app purchases then you need to be careful that you continue to have as many users buying it.

If it is in-app purchases then you need to make sure that features are promoting users to purchase.

Anyway, you probably know all that - the point is, you have to realistically forecast your revenue projections for the next few years. IF you think you can make the same amount then it is not a big deal to buy out for 2x his share of revenue (so $17K). If it looks like projections for next year will be $10,000 you need to seriously consider the offer. Good luck

</comment><comment><USER7> One common option to valuate the company is to take its estimated 5 year revenue. In your case, assuming 20% YoY growth it works out to 141K (20K + 24K + 29K + 35K + 41K), 45% stake buyout -> 67K.

YMMV, etc.

</comment><comment><USER8> Maybe he takes the $17k and keeps 5% and you get 95% of the future?

</comment><comment><USER5> How about 50% of valuation - valuation of his 5% share?

Not sure the best way to get business valuation is an online form... but here's one: <http://www.caycon.com/valuation.php>

:)</comment>


Flammarion – browser-based Ruby GUI Toolkit - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/zach-capalbo/flammarion <comment><AUTHOR> Some discussion [https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/42xxsp/flammarion_the...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/42xxsp/flammarion_the_nifty_ruby_gui_toolkit/)

</comment><comment><USER2> I wonder if Flammarion, the imprint of the Gallimard French publishing giant will object at the use of their name?

</comment><comment><USER3> Is it possible to make a fully fledged but ugly interface that can be styled separately decoupled from the code?</comment>


Minecraft server built in Node.js - <AUTHOR> http://github.com/welterde/nodecraft

<comment><USER3> You linked to a fork of the original project <http://github.com/nornagon/nodecraft>

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, thanks. I didn't notice at first. Though the fork has more recent commits where as the main hasn't had any for a while now. Still pretty cool and hope it goes somewhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Even more impressively, this appears to be for the new protocol version - <USER2> new protocol is significantly harder to implement a server for than the old one (I say this having written custom servers for both in Python), and requires, among other things, a full lighting implementation in the server.

I'd be curious to see how this compares to the Java one for speed (and some other SMP servers that are springing up) - it's quite difficult to store an infinite size map efficiently in memory and still keep good random access times.

</comment><comment><USER5> They might want to switch that to the UDP server ( dgram ) Networked games over TCP is not usually recommended: [http://gafferongames.com/networking-for- game-programmers/udp...](http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game- programmers/udp-vs-tcp/)

<comment><USER6> They can't if the minecraft client uses TCP.

<comment><USER5> Doh, sorry, obviously.

In which case, I wonder whether he (notch) is going to have trouble with the online performance. I've tried online play briefly and it didn't seem bad, I guess it isn't really twitch based.

<comment><USER7> I've played online (a few weeks ago) and there did seem to be problems with the server due to periodic GC causing massive lag and disconnections every so often.

<comment><USER8> It could also be people laying minecart track. This, unfortunately, completely kills the server and makes it need to be restarted.

<comment><USER9> in my experience, tracks on smp hosed the clients, not the server.

<comment><USER10> Server takes a massive hit as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is pretty awesome, can't wait to try it out. The current minecraft server is such a memory hog and can be sort of hard to run a decent server on a small VPS. I wonder how this version compares.

</comment><comment><USER12> For a sec, I thought it said "Node.js built in Minecraft" and didn't even find it a bit weird...

</comment><comment><USER13> I knew this was coming..</comment>


Arizona Cardiologist Responds to Critics Regarding Measles and Vaccines - <AUTHOR> http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/arizona-cardiologist-responds-to-critics-regarding-measles-and-vaccines/

<comment><USER2> The fact that there are other health problems in the world does not mean that anti-vaccination rhetoric has any merit. This link is junk. I only bother to comment because for some reason it's getting upvotes.

<comment><USER3> From the linked article

""We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley. Wolfson does not believe in vaccination."

By that rhetoric why use any medicine for any decease at all?

<comment><USER4> It's interesting that he didn't add polio and smallpox to the list. No one is stupid enough to wish their kids have polio or smallpox.

Just to remember: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis#Prognosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis#Prognosis) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Prognosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Prognosis)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> he is a cardioligist, which has very little to do with immunology or virology. An analogy ( for this forum ) would be a Ruby on Rails developer providing a critique on memory management in embedded systems. He can have his opinion, but just because he can be called "doctor" does not mean he knows everything about human physiology and pharmacology. If he had a strong opinion about heart health and cardiovascular disease (such as the debate around saturated fats) then I would give his opinion a high level of confidence.

</comment><comment><USER6> Interesting point of view.

I like the opinion of a very famous creator of vaccines:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ)</comment>


Factor vs. Forth (from a Forth programmer) - <AUTHOR> http://www.rosycrew.org/FactorVsForth.pdf <comment><USER2> Am I the only one who finds the use of the phrase "real world" for the world of microcontroller programming jarring? It is used throughout the article.

e.g:- "rationals are never used in the real world, and floating-point is quite rare"

To the author's credit he does define the use of this term "On the other hand, all of these languages are too big to be used in the real world (micro- controllers), which is the realm where Forth and C remain popular."

but I still found it a bit jarring.

"It is reasonable to predict that Factor will largely phase out Forth in the world of desktop programming, but that Forth and C will continue to be predominant in the real world."

I understand that English is probably not the author's first language, (it isn't mine either), but if he is reading this, replacing "real world" with "microcontroller world" might be an easy change to make.

<comment><USER3> Have you considered the possibility that perhaps when the author says "the real world", he might mean "the real world"? I would not be surprised to learn that his point of view is that embedded systems make the world go round, and web programming is a kiddy pool for quiche-eaters. Most programmers are elitists about something or other; that "something" might as well be microcontrollers.

<comment><USER2> "Most programmers are elitists about something or other; that "something" might as well be microcontrollers."

It is certainly _possible_.

I guess it is just that I think the hypothesis that "English is not his first language" is more probable than "He is an elitist who thinks only microcontroller program is real programming" as an explanation for this usage. I could be wrong.

EDIT: invalidated by thristian's post above

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting view of "the real world", where Python, C++, Factor, etc, are not used. This real world is contrasted with the desktop.

This is a pretty detailed comparison of Factor and Forth, insofar as I can tell (neither a Forth or Factor programmer). There is a little confusion about compiled vs interpreted--author of the paper claims that C is interpreted based on its use of the "%1" used in printf statements.</comment>


A description of B, the language that begat C: by Kernighan [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://web.archive.org/web/20150611114644/https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/btut.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Initially I looked at the use of "auto" to declare variables and thought it did type-inteferencing, but it turns out variables were "typeless" (and seems like everything was an integer). Another interesting thing that stood out to me was that an array declaration had one more array elements than declared. So "auto v[10]" had 11 elements with the array index starting from 0 and including 10...</comment>


Programmer Lives Matter - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouKgUdqZMds <comment><USER2> I wish there were more people with balanced view like this.</comment>


Facebook is the first to jump into ARM servers - <AUTHOR> http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/08/23/facebook-first-jump-arm-servers <comment><USER2> See <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1628356>

</comment><comment><USER3> and here too <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1628780>.</comment>


NASA Testing Portable Robot Surgeon - <AUTHOR> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267083,00.html?sPage=fnc.technology/innovation <comment><USER2> A family friend has been working on some project designing medical systems for future manned space missions, specifically to Mars. I think it's funded by NASA but not sure. I wish I had his brains!

I wonder if YC has gotten any space based applications?</comment>


A Man Who Made the Mistake of Trying to Help Wikileaks - <AUTHOR> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/jason-katz-wikileaks <comment><USER2> A systems administrator downloads a random zip file and a password cracker onto his work computer, when he works for the Department of Energy, gets caught and fired. The first part of the article is surprising only in that he found it so easy to get a good job in finance afterwards.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what the point of the article is at all. He freely admits that the FBI had cause to be suspicious about his travel to Iceland, it coincided with a massive breach of information and he definitely fit the bill to warrant investigation. He and his associates all were afforded the right to counsel etc, in terms of US law enforcement stories this is more of an example of how things should be done within the context of the law as it stands.

<comment><USER3> The FBI raided his girlfriend's parents house and harassed and disrupted the lives of all his friends and family prior to him going to Iceland.

All he did was download a file. The FBI knew he was politically motivated but treated him like a criminal.

Sure his first employer is within their rights to fire him. But the hedge fund only fired him (despite him already giving notice to leave) after the FBI showed up to harass and disrupt his life.

This is not how law enforcement should work.

<comment><USER4> And yet, because of the prevailing attitude of the poster to whom you are replying, this is probably how law enforcement will remain.

"THEY GET WHAT THEY DESERVE" is an easy and natural philosophy to have, until it happens to you and your family.

And then still, many people are subtley and/or overtly pressured (terrorized) into not joining any kind of activist or opposition movement

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I remember when this happened. I didn't get to talk to Katz for a year or more after the server got taken down. He confirmed later his move was basically due to fear of the feds trying to come down on him however they could while collecting scalps in response to the Wikileaks/Manning leaks. All of this wouldn't have been possible without Lamo feeding virtually useless information to the feds to try to score brownie points with them, and Strutt doing absolutely nothing to protect the server he hosted for his "friends" in the hacker community. It was a sad wake-up call.

<comment><USER6> Heya Jason here, have we talked in the past? I was actually already in the process of my way out of the states when all this went down. In a general sense Fedz rely on disrupting the support networks (familial and friend) of those persons whom they deem targets. It's a common pattern when they've got a high profile case and they're being pressed by administration for somebody, anybody to prosecute.

<comment><USER7> Hey this is cf. I had no idea this was all going on, and I appreciate you trying to shield me and other people from getting pulled into this. You dropped off Jabber and I worried if you were alright. I'm glad to see you thriving in Iceland.

<comment><USER6> oh hey! yea I definitely cut contact with a lot of folks without explaining to them that it was to keep them out of a position where they might inadvertently lie to LEO and themselves then be coerced into helping.

I don't think many people understand that lying to Federal officials, even innocuous ones can be prosecutable, depending on zealous they want to be.

<comment><USER7> I appreciate it. Anyway all my old email addresses still work if you want to get back in touch.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Warning, this "website" eats 100% CPU every time you dare to scroll to _read text_.

<comment><USER9> not on my browser. probably ad-block related, i.e. I'm using ad-block and the page doesn't eat all my CPU.

<comment><USER10> I have Ad Block and it spikes to 60% CPU

<comment><USER11> Have you tried uBlock Origin?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Unfortunate the clickbait headline says it was a "mistake". A mistake is something you wish you hadn't done.

"I don't regret my actions, because they led me on a really interesting journey."

<comment><USER13> It's not click bait, what you are defining is regret and regret is not needed for something to be a mistake.

I have made many mistakes in my life - some I regret, others I do not.

<comment><USER12> I disagree.</comment></comment></comment>


A Crowdsourced Map Project That Is Helping Contain the Ebola Epidemic - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcolabs.com/3037350/elasticity/inside-the-crowdsourced-map-project-that-is-helping-contain-the-ebola-epidemic

<comment><USER3> Pl help HN researchers. I CANNOT FIND in the medical literature DEATH BY FART. Ebola is NOT airborne, because WE ALL TRUST THE GOVERNMENT who are not only experts but geniuses. The FART (no laughing please), the DEATH FART takes internal intestinal gasses, mixes in nanoparticles and aerosolizes them. I am interested in publishing a paper in the high science Elsevier journal titled "Journal of Aerosol Science."Since the police are following closely the 'typhoid mary' super-emitter of deadly viruses -

YES THERE IS A TYPHOID MARY in medical hsitory the law enforcement will touch or allegedly DEATH TOUCH many public persons.

Could this theory of DEATH FART - the official title involves convoluted medical jargon in order to hide the truth from simpleton programmers on HN -

Could this THEORY OF DEATH FART be the cause of the pandemic as in the SARS epidemic in Hong Kong? The mechanism is the toilet spray PLUME of TOILET virus laden particles which took out TWO BUILDINGS at Amoy Gardens, Hong Kong.

As confirmed in the Journal of Aerosol Science and 'reading between the lines' of various RUSSIAN LANGUAGE internet articles - Please do not laugh -

the InFLUENZA virus provides new nano size droplet / dust particle / hot particle formation resulting in ASTOUNDINGLY LARGE AND LONG PLUMES.

So, Ebola Nurse Bicycle Super-emitter: DID YOU or did you not emit that alleged FART OF DEATH? PS. do NOT laugh. Please respond with HARD SCIENCE and HN crowdsource genius for the rise and Fall of the Roman Empire due to lead pipes,crazy brain damaged leader gods - CAESARS oh wait. CAESAR - <USER2> leader word leads to Germany KAISER leads to USSR Stalin Tsar leads to USA CZAR of Ebola.

Caesar >> Kaiser >> Tsar >> USA Czar ~ 1,1 Top

</comment><comment><USER4> Very cool story of how digital technology is helping to fight ebola.</comment>


Show HN: We launched our Serverless payment microservice Open Source - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/pagarme/superbowleto <comment><USER2> What is "boleto"? "provider"? Who collects the payments? What is all this about?

<comment><USER3> Boleto is a very popular payment method in Brazil. It's sort of similar to PayPoint in the UK, but more widely used.</comment></comment>


42 (school) - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(school) <comment><USER3> Having interviewed a bunch of 42 graduates, my main issue with 42 is that it doesn't teach their students to think about what they're doing, encouraging them instead to rush to the keyboard and emit as much code as they can as if programming for the last day of their project. This seems to resonate well with the culture of _piscines_ at 42.

To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before they shoot.

So far, I've always ended up not recruiting the candidates, because they would have made a mess of the codebase in no time, bringing negative net productivity to the team (more so than most junior candidates I've seen). And this was for jobs in a startup!

I wish 42 would teach them the necessary insights to program _sustainably_ \- that's where teachers and mentors are indispensable, and that's the rare skill most companies are lacking. Anyone can pick up tutorials and read manuals on their own. Make them developers, not eternal coding beginners. I'm not asking for an academic or scientific focus, just a good philosophy of programming in general, the kind of which you see in SICP for example.

Unfortunately, 42 does not have a monopoly on producing short-sighted developers in France, by far - that's the case of most "learn to code in X days/months/years" programs.

<comment><USER4> > To me, this is as silly as training Biathlon athletes to not even aim before > they shoot.

People should learn this mantra: coding is to software development what moving pieces is to chess.

<comment><USER5> > coding is to software development what moving pieces is to chess.

AFAIK, when teaching kids chess, the best way to start is teaching them how to move the pieces.

<comment> jl-gitlab The very next thing you teach them after the theoretical knowledge of how the pieces move is to sit on their hands, to avoid making impulsive moves.

<comment><USER6> This -- absolutely.

Knowing how to move the pieces is a foundational piece of information, but without the understanding of the theory of the game it's useless information.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> EZ-E This kind of discussion will end up being the typical (French) disdain between people learning engineering in the public schools v/s the ones learning in these "practical teaching" private schools and vice versa.

There are good engineers in both, both have different approach to teach which fit different people. Both do generally good in the private sector after they're done with it.

As usual the people graduating from public schools will say the private graduates don't have the theorical foundation, and the private graduates will say the public graduates don't have enough technical skills when they graduate. In reality the decent students will pick up the theory from the practical projects and vice-versa.

If that matters, I did Epitech, which is similar-ish to 42 and all the people that graduated with me have decent positions and are in high demand by the job market. Some of them in big name companies.

This kind of private schools are a good alternative for people who don't fit in the public education by letting them just do practical projects with some direction and let them pick up the theory from there. Some people are really good self taught hackers but would otherwise drop out in typical education, but they can shine in these schools. I've met many.

<comment><USER7> You forgot to mention the private schools are expensive and use a somewhat pyramidal scheme where older students teach newer ones to repaid part of their school fees. In public education all teachers hold PhD or engineer titles so they have more years to think about what they teach than the guy who is only year+2 of the teachee.

Edit: I checked Epitech tuition fees, it's around 40k€ for the whole 5 years curriculum. You can make _a century_ of studies for the same price in any public university.

<comment><USER8> Something interesting is that the way Epitech (and 42) work is completely different from what you would have in public schools (at least in France).

For example, one key part for me was that the school allowed me to practically don't go to classes as long as I could prove that my work wasn't affected. It's something that you won't find everyday. I'm 100% sure I'd have failed university otherwise because the lack of freedom would have bored me to death Conversely, friends of mine have dropped from Epitech in the first two years because they didn't get enough support, so it shows that the most interesting thing the school has to offer is its learning devices. They understood that one size doesn't fit all (which is against the French public school philosophy).

So yeah, the tuition is expensive (and frankly given how the school works you sometimes wonder whether they eat luxury cars for lunch), but there's simply no public alternative.

One other factor I've also wondered is if people paying for their scholarships weren't more invested in making it a success? I knew my fair share of people who weren't thriving as developers at Epitech as well, mind you, but most of them dropped before the end.

<comment><USER9> I don't understand, you say they allow to learn at your own pace but don't offer enough support for those who need it, that certainly sounds like trying to fit all with one size?

I've done Ensimag, which is a public school in the same sector, and you definitely could skip classes if you wanted to (though most of the ones who skipped classes did it out of sloppiness)

<comment><USER8> I meant "at your own pace" as in "they let you decide how you want to learn it". Meaning that instead of following classes (which were quite basic anyway) I spent most of my time reading man pages and reading obscure forums, and they were perfectly fine with that.

Those who had issues were those who needed to be told where and what exactly to look for. They often felt like they were paying for little to no teaching (which is true, in a sense, but I preferred to see it as an opportunity to grow by myself in an environment where I could have extra resources at my disposal if I needed to - the best one often being other students, sometimes from previous years).

<comment><USER9> Sure, but that's just a different form of fitting one size for all, where they assume that every student can learn by themselves.

And once again, all engineering schools considers their students adult enough to let them do their thing: there's no repercussion if you don't go to classes, it's not 42-specific

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't know how anyone has the energy to write code for 50+ hours a week for a whole year. Surely you have some burn out with that as your base-line cadence.

I have no doubt _some_ younger people, competitive alpha minds would take this in their stride, but I worry this culture of hyper competitiveness permeates into employment. When this stuff is accepted as 'work ethic' and normalized you tilt toward what some asian cultures are experiencing today - <USER2> overworked unhappy individuals.

Personally I don't think it's great to brag about how hard you work. I don't think it's ok to be proud of bootcamps (although 42 School explicitly says it's not a boot camp which is a little Orwellian). People should be proud of being healthy, getting enough sleep, eating well, having social interactions, learning, cultivating well balanced meaningful lives.

To truly be a school of the 21st century we need to do away with this culture of stress. It's killing the best of us.

<comment><USER11> Disclaimer: I'm a 42 student.

I agree with this sentiment so damn much. When I joined the school, I was very afraid that such a rhythm would lead me to a fast burnout.

Thankfully, there's no pressure to do any kind of crazy hours. The school is open 24/7, and there are no deadlines for projects or whatever. This is a two edged sword: on one hand, there's an incentive to stay at school as long as possible, and put in some crazy hours. On the other side, though, it creates a lot of flexibility for student. If you need to take a breather, you can totally put in less hours, or even totally stop going for a while. If you need to do some odd hours, like working a night schedule, that's also possible.

Of course, I have put in some 50+hr in a week sometimes,while hacking away on a project. But i have also clocked 25hr some weeks. This absolute flexibility is a real stress relief.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm a student at the Paris 42 campus. It is not true that the average 42 student lack theoretical understanding. We may not take a semester long course in compiler theory for example, but we do manage to build our own shell scripting interpreters and pick up enough compiler theory to define a grammar, build a parser to produce an AST and then interpret it accordingly. The same goes for other theoretical foundations of programming. I understand that the traditional way of hiring engineers and teaching them practical programming skills on the job is well established. But you would be surprised how good some of our students are both in theory and practice and how few guidance they required in reaching their level of skill. If you have any questions about the curriculum or our work here in general, feel free to contact me!

<comment><USER13> Quite honestly, most companies don't care about one's compiler theory knowledge or ability to build shell scripting interpreters, nor should they.

<comment><USER14> > Quite honestly, most companies don't care about one's compiler theory > knowledge or ability to build shell scripting interpreters, nor should they.

Right. Like how you don't care about the persons' physics knowledge when hiring an architect. /s

<comment><USER13> No. Like you don't care about one's ability to make some concrete when hiring an architect. It's nice to have, might be essential on some specific projects. Usually won't matter.

<comment><USER15> I'm sorry, but if architect cannot make some concrete, i.e. he doesn't know basics of his profession, what you expect from him? A house?

Yes, you can hire him, but that will cost you lot of money. There are tons of examples of cheap architect work, e.g. collapsed bridges in the Western Europe.

<comment><USER13> I seriously wonder about the proportion of architects who ever mixed any concrete themselves in their lives.

Seriously, almost no developer would be able to write a compiler today. The same way I wouldn't be able to build a micro-processor worth anything.

You wouldn't expect any compiler knowledge from most web (back or front) developers, the same way you wouldn't expect much GUI or globally distributed consistent databases knowledge or experience from most embedded developers.

And it's just fine. It's their problem, their limitation, their career, them missing out and, no, in most cases, it won't impact their jobs or the quality of what they make in any way.

Why do you have to have a problem with that ?

Edit: also, bridges collapse all over the world. Tunnels too.

<comment><USER15> I'm software developer (backend, fronted, cloud, embedded, etc), but it's often very helpful to know how hardware works, how processor works, how kernel works, how compiler works, how network works, and so on, because it's allow me to make my abstraction at top of all these layers to work much more efficient. It's not expected that I will be expert in all that, but it's expected that I will know basics, so I will not make noob mistakes. Are you expecting noob mistakes from architect, which made your home? Or it's ok if he made mistakes in someone else home or bridge?

<comment><USER13> I'm a software developer too. Mostly mobile and backend.

On the mobile part, most of the clients have pretty much no idea what a processor really is, or how networks work. Hell, I have to explain to them that if they want to build this kittens social network, they're going to need a back-end and that no, it doesn't matter to the mobile apps what language their back-end is written in (and vice-versa).

For most of what these people ask, all you need to know are the basics of Android and iOS's SDKs and how to make API calls. Half the time, their isn't even any networking involved !

I'd be thrilled to work in an environment where this kind of knowledge matters. But like most people I'm stuck working with some people who'll tell you that they don't want to be software developers; it's just a means to an end to them (which is fine. Just don't use that as a shoddy excuse for doing crap), refactoring codebases built by some kids who don't have any software architecture knowledge and don't see the problem in their network layers popping modals and alerts, wondering how on earth a view could end up being a singleton (and no, "I was somehow convinced I needed to access it and change it's properties from this class over there" is not a satisfactory answer) or spend half my day on a single rebase because of some git submodule crap.

So yeah, for most of the people I've had the 'delight' of working with, they are missing so much that no, hardware intricacies, processors inner working, compilers logic and functioning or networking knowledge aren't the critical aspects they're missing.

Heck, I'd be glad if their code was even just readable and had anything resembling an architecture. Or if they didn't turn everything and anything into a singleton whenever they felt like it.

I'm going to stop now. But going back to the architects analogy, if these developers where architects, then most of those I've met can't tell the difference between plumbing and electrical wiring, so I'd be glad if they left the concrete to the craftsmen and at least managed the basics of their jobs' specifics.

<comment><USER15> Software scientist != software/hardware engineer != software/hardware developer != programmer/coder.

Programmer must know how to _program_.

Software _developer_ must know how to make good software _product_.

Software engineer must know how to understand and meet _specifications_ , follow engineering codex, and son on.

And so on.

I'm talking about software _developers_. You are showing me examples unrelated to professional software product development at all. Moreover, there are lot of professionals in IT, but only part of them are software developers.

So we are just talking about different things: you are talking about "someone who sits in front in compute and enters programming code", while I'm talking about professional Software Developer, short segment of IT professionals, subset of programmers.

<comment><USER13> You are pretty much making my point, you know that, right ?

I'm talking about people who are one of the or the only persons with any technical knowledge in their companies, _who 's job it is to interpret and understand whatever the requirements are and deliver on the products_, wether it's apps, web or mobile, back-ends or both.

They _need_ to know how to make good software _products_ , they definitely _should_ know how to understand and meet specifications, etc, etc, etc. _They just don 't_. And yet, they have the positions they have. And what they're most lacking, contrary to the point you were making earlier, definitely isn't compiler theory or the ability to build shell scripting parsers, _but the very abilities you just listed._

So no, _we are talking about the exact same thing_ , you just seem lucky enough not to have encountered this kind of people in that kind of position, and I'm glad we have _finally_ come to an understanding.

<comment><USER15> Of course, I know such people. They are called "anykeyers" in my country. And of course, they are not software developers or software engineers.

If they have no education/training adequate to their profession, they are just amateurs. I trained about few dozens of them during my career.

We have outsourcing industry in Ukraine, so "Software Developer" is well defined term here. Somebody cannot sit five years playing with Excel, or JS/HTML, or mobile apps and then pretend for Senior Developer salary. Inexperienced (junior) developers causes lots of problems to project and must be supervised by a senior developer. We work on tight budgets, so we have no time to play name games. If someone has "developer" in his title, he must meet expectations for his role. Otherwise, project will collapse and everyone will suffer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "The candidates must be between 18 and 30 years of age (18 - 45 in Silicon Valley).[14] No previous diploma is required."

Age discrimination at its best. Cap it at 45?

How many people over 30 (45 in the US) are trying to retool and get educated on programming?

<comment><USER17> The older copy of the US site at [https://web.archive.org/web/20180206011840/https://www.42.us...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180206011840/https://www.42.us.org/42-admissions- overview-requirements-process/faq/) is very clear: "I AM NOT BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 30. CAN I COME TO 42? No. While we do not have anything against those who are over 30 years old, when opening a new location, we have decided to concentrate our where they can be the most efficient and where we have a great deal of experience."

On the current site this is changed to: "You can apply to 42 if you're older than 45, but please know that most students here are younger and that Intensive Basic Training is tiring."

Hardly encouraging.

The french site [http://www.42.fr/](http://www.42.fr/) says "ouverte à tous et accessible aux 18-30 ans" (18-30 only)

Draw your own conclusions about age discrimination here. You are free to apply...

<comment><USER18> Have you tried applying to a publicly funded phd program or med school @age > 45?

<comment><USER19> I don't know about PhD, but I know several who went to med school after the age of 40. Lots of weird midlife crises out there.

<comment><USER20> I know I could see myself wanting a PhD if I suddenly made enough money to finance the rest of my life.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I am very happy about this trend of project-oriented, deferred-tuition programming trade schools. So far I know of:

\- 42 (France and Bay Area)

\- Lambda School (online)

\- Holberton (Bay Area)

\- There is also Epitech (France) which is the "ancestor" of both Holberton and 42. They don't defer tuition, but have the same project-oriented, TA- intensive curriculum.

It's still early and all these schools have their strengths and weaknesses... But I think this is a positive trend. It makes tech education more accessible to a lot more people, and can produce quality engineers. It's definitely much better than the horrible coding bootcamps popping up everywhere, that charge 5 figures and leave you completely unprepared for a software development career.

<comment><USER22> Absolutely!

There's also

\- Make School (Bay Area)

\- CODE (Berlin) [I'm one of the founders]

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is cool to see as I once owned the domain school42.com because I wanted to build something similar but more focused on allowing teachers to do 1 on 1 teaching in a large group setting. Ideally I felt if teachers could see all their students work using something like Web Sockets, they could visit 1 on 1 either digitally or physically when a student was having trouble. Since this was a digital platform, you could set up simple triggers to determine if a student might be struggling.

I dug up some really old notes that referenced my reasoning for the name.

"42 is the number used to define the meaning of life, learning is also arguably the meaning of life. It also sounds like school for 2 (teacher & student). This will hopefully help one to one learning."

</comment><comment><USER24> Some previous meta-discussion about a reddit post that made some very critical claims about 42: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18189670](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18189670)

<comment><USER25> I'm a current student at 42, myself and my fellow students all had a pretty good laugh at much of their comments. We didn't really see an accurate representation of our school, and much of it came across as a bitter student who wasn't accepted.

For example, there is a cat at the Paris campus and the students are asked to ignore it and not pet it. That guidance turned into the 'rule' that if 'the cat touches you, you fail'. I promise the school doesn't have a secret failure cat.

I'm referring to the reddit link, not the HN comments.

<comment><USER26> why not pet a cat?

what did the cat do to them?

is 42 anti cat?

just kidding. see how easily conspiracy theories form?

<comment><USER27> damn cat haters.

<comment><USER26> I once wrote a purely academic article about election map data visualization and after it got picked up by Fast Company it was amazing how some people in the comments were convinced that it was written to further some sort of political agenda. Just sitting there reading that made me go wow, I wonder what I've been lead to believe from the outside looking in that is just flat out unfounded

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> There is a bunch of successful companies led by graduate from theses kind of school. Check out vente privée CTO. Another example could be the core team that developed docker that was from there as well.

<comment><USER3> Sure, but this doesn't tell us anything about the role 42 played in these successes - there's also a fair number of successful entrepreneurs without any higher education, should we infer from it that no education is the key to success?

<comment><USER28> Docker was a school project at the origin. The CTO of vente privée said in multiple interview how he use to be challenged in his previous school.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Honestly I'm unsure about this (except if you're a fresh high school graduate). Sure you will probably land a job in tech but considering how easy it is now for ANYONE to land a job in tech, is such a school really needed ?

Resources online are plenty (and actually 42's main way of learning), so learning material is not the problem.

If you're already in the workforce, you can get yourself a training through the employment agency, or even better an apprenticeship.

Consulting firms hire science graduates and train them to be developers. I went that way, switched for a small company after a few months where I am better tutored. Some friends stayed in consulting and still improve. Sure the pay is low in consulting firms, but it is immediate and you build professional experience directly instead of wasting 3+ years.

Doing 42 when you already have a degree sounds like a waste of time to me. I guess it's fine if you're 18 and need guidance though. But I'd still prefer prepa and engineering schools over 42...

<comment><USER30> > except if you're a fresh high school graduate

That's their main source of students, no?

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> For anyone that is considering attending the school I recommend reading also some criticism:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/91bjlr/sc...](https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/91bjlr/school_42_is_a_borderline_cultopinion/)

That being said I met some super smart people from 42 that had built extremely interesting and technically challenging projects! For example a first year student I met had built a 3d rendering engine in C without using any external library.

<comment><USER32> This is at least the second time someone posts this link. I read it the first time, and found it not convincing: that person failed to get in, is telling a bunch of second hand stories that are probably wildly exaggerated. Not much to see there...

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I have gone to several hackathons at 42. It is quite a nice campus, really well maintained.

It's much bigger than you'd think and the supervisors are happy to let visitors explore

</comment><comment><USER34> It sounds like an interesting experiment, though I agree with other posters about the age cap.

A school named 42 that would not accept Douglas Adams as a student, were he still around. Ha!

</comment><comment><USER22> Somewhat related to this, we founded [https://code.berlin](https://code.berlin), an accredited university in Berlin with strictly project-based, interdisciplinary and self-directed 3-year Bachelor programs in Software Engineering, Interaction Design and Product Management.

We're in our 2nd year now, with 230 students from more than 40 nations. We've partnered with 42 US for student exchange last summer, and it was an awesome experience for our students who went there.

<comment><USER35> You should post it to HN! I see it has been posted once before, but that was over a year ago, it's perfectly fine to post again.

<comment><USER22> Thanks, will do :) I'll just wait until November when we reopen applications for next year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Any 42 silicon valley grads here on HN? How was it?

<comment><USER37> I graduated from 42 in April. I moved here with no prior work experience in tech, and got a developer job in a little under a year. The curriculum is mostly C based which can be a little tedious, but you do learn programming from the ground up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> There is 101 as well: [https://www.le-101.fr/](https://www.le-101.fr/)

</comment><comment><USER39> Sounds somewhat similar to [https://www.recurse.com](https://www.recurse.com)

<comment><USER38> totally different. 42 is a real school with a, I believe, 3-year program.

<comment><USER39> I'm not saying it's the same, I'm saying they share a similar ethos:

"The school does not have any professors, does not issue any diploma or degree, and is open 24/7\. The training is inspired by new modern ways to teach which include peer-to-peer pedagogy and project-based learning."

<comment><USER38> still completely different, at recurse you are free to choose whatever you want to do, whereas 42 has lists of exercises, challenges and exams that you must go through.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Too bad I'm over 30.

<comment><USER25> There's no age restrictions for the Silicon Valley campus, you're more than welcome to apply.

<comment><USER16> 45 is the cap.

<comment><USER41> Why not look at the source to get the right information? [https://www.42.us.org/42-admissions-overview-requirements- pr...](https://www.42.us.org/42-admissions-overview-requirements- process/admissions-requirements/) [https://www.42.us.org/42-admissions- overview-requirements-pr...](https://www.42.us.org/42-admissions-overview- requirements-process/faq/)

> I AM NOT BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 45. CAN I COME TO 42?

> Yes! We are looking for learners who are motivated. In establishing the > school in the US, we focused first on the age range we're familiar with, > then expanded to include high school, and will continue to expand. It's > important to develop a program that supports the success of students while > still challenging them. You can apply to 42 if you're older than 45, but > please know that most students here are younger and that Intensive Basic > Training is tiring.

<comment><USER42> For what it's worth, I've been absolutely smoked in 5k races by people who were 40+. Instead of offending those people by implying they don't have the stamina to keep up, just say no. People respect "no." No one respects disingenuous language.

<comment><USER43> It's likely illegal to "just say no".</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Gather Your Ideas. Organize Your Life. iOS app - <AUTHOR> http://clipup.co

<comment><AUTHOR> Very nice looking app</comment>