Amazon laying off corporate employees in rare cutback - <AUTHOR> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-laying-off-corporate-employees-in-rare-cutback/ <comment><USER2> The hiring freeze has already been horrendous. We're told to keep hitting all our goals even if we lose people and can't hire to backfill. Now we're just straight up losing people to layoffs? Keeping the lights on alone is barely possible with the resources we have.

It would be one thing if we were in dire straights as a company. Imho, this is just short-sighted nonsense so some senior leader can hit an arbitrary goal and get a bonus.

I wonder if Alexa or AWS are hiring.

<comment><USER3> That's funny if they've had a hiring freeze since last week I got contacted by an Amazon recruiter wanting me to move to Seattle

<comment><USER4> Got one today too. Put on a Gore tex coat and stood under the shower, on cold, for a half an hour, and decided that Seattle is probably not to my liking outside of, say, late July.

<comment><USER5> Eight months of the year it's drizzle every day. But the other four months, well they almost make up for it. I spent a couple of really great summers in Seattle.

Plus, no snow unless you want it- then you drive to the mountains.

<comment><USER6> The first time I visited Seattle was the middle of July. The weather was warm and sunny. I recall going swimming in Lake Washington. Everyone was really, really happy and joyful, to the extent that I wondered if I had been lied to all my life about Seattle.

I guess SAD is a thing. Is there an anti-SAD?

<comment><USER7> Light therapy:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder#Ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder#Management)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> A layoff of any kind or scale is interesting for AMZN, given that they have so much diversity of teams, jobs, skills, products, etc. It's interesting that they couldn't repurpose a few hundred people, even given their infamous up or out mentality. Sounds like they are knowingly giving up good people since the current culture fires anyone that doesn't produce already. Willingly giving up good people doesn't seem like a healthy signal.

Edit: Encountered this at a company acquired by private equity right before the 2008 bubble. They did 3 straight stack-rank/fire-the-bottom rounds. Was clear in the second round we were letting go of really good talent to the competition solely for some executive's bonus tied to short term numbers. And, it did bite them later.

<comment><USER9> It's a super healthy signal.

Let's say hypothetically that Amazon started a VR project and hired a team of 100 PhDs whose expertise is VR to work on that project. After 2 years, the company realized that it's not working out and shut that project down.

Because of the bad optics of layoffs (especially of such highly skilled engineers), the engineers were reassigned to various positions that require expertise in computer graphics. Bear in mind that these 100 engineers have niche skills and most of them feel that VR is their life's calling; they're not interested in generic computer graphics. They are overpaid, underemployed, and miserable.

The best of them leave after a month of two; the remainder trudges on for a year until they also leave or get pushed out. The outcome is that Amazon has wasted shareholder money and got themselves a bad rep with those engineers (and their friends). A straight layoff would have worked much better, but unfortunately most companies don't have the balls for it.

<comment><USER10> > Bear in mind that these 100 engineers have niche skills and most of them > feel that VR is their life's calling; they're not interested in generic > computer graphics. They are overpaid, underemployed, and miserable.

Except that you just made all that up. It is a huge major if. Especially that part about calling and the part about them having only niche skills.

Guess what those "best ones who leave" will do? You guessed right, they will do not VR.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Seattle Times likes to give Amazon bad press. Seattle has enough other tech companies to absorb a few hundred jobs. Companies routinely end up over-hiring or having redundant positions. It appears that they are laying off less than 10% of their Seattle staff, while they are still expanding the amount of office space they occupy in Seattle.

This seems like no big deal for Seattle and Amazon.

<comment><USER12> "less than 10% of their Seattle staff"

even less than 1%

<comment><USER11> The problem is "a few hundred" is an undefined number.

400 would be about 1%, which would be fairly reported as a few hundred. My ceiling number is very high, but I would believe more than 1% are let go.

<comment><USER13> Does amazon really employ 40,000 people in its corporate headquarters? Microsoft does, but it has a much much bigger campus.

<comment><USER14> Yes according to [0]. Just look at their campus map [1]. It is massive and some of those buildings are dozens of stories tall.

[0]: [https://www.amazon.com/p/feature/4kc8ovgnyf996yn](https://www.amazon.com/p/feature/4kc8ovgnyf996yn)

[1]: [https://static.seattletimes.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/09/7...](https://static.seattletimes.com/wp- content/uploads/2017/09/7ef8dbd0-9436-11e7-b343-b7c75282038d-960x960.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've always wondered how companies like Amazon and Apple with piles of cash justify not giving raises or passing laying off people. I understand that you want to be smart with your money but if I'm on the business end of this decision it probably hurts more than getting laid off from a company that's struggling and has no other options.

<comment><USER16> Laying off people is just a tool to get rid of low performers and cut costs. From the article:

 _" A manager in one unit making cuts said his team was briefed that Bezos and the Amazon brass wanted to put more pressure on managers to weed out lower performers and enforce spending discipline after the rapid growth of recent years."_

Layoffs seem kinda shitty, but it's usually better than firing with cause. The worker will still qualify for unemployment benefits, and the employer doesn't have to go through the time and expense of a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan).

<comment><USER17> From watching friends, for higher end jobs? you are almost never terminated 'with cause' \- I don't know even one programmer who got fired from a fully paid programming job (I mean, a job paying six figures, not a "shadow IT" gig.) who has gotten fired in a way they couldn't collect unemployment insurance, even after a PIP.

For low end jobs, retail and the like? it's pretty common to be fired 'with cause.' even for small things that I do twice a week, like being late or something.

I suspect that it's because employers only pay unemployment insurance on the first $7K or so of wages they pay an employee in a year, so while an increase in their unemployment insurance rate matters if they are paying retail rates, it really doesn't if they are paying programmer rates.

The funny thing is that I don't think any of my programmer friends would fight it either way; it's not worth the effort. But friends working retail? yeah, sometimes it makes sense to fight it... and their employer actually gets up in court, and argues why this person they paid almost nothing and then fired shouldn't get what amounts to a pittance.

The whole thing seems kind of unfair and messed up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Acc to article, seems like it's happening in established businesses like Retail. Maybe those old businesses are due for some consolidation?

In last earnings release, Bezos said he's doubling down on Alexa, which I presume includes increased hiring.

<comment><USER19> Voice search is already huge and I imagine it may be even bigger. I see Amazon as a threat to Google in this area.

<comment><USER20> > Amazon as a threat to Google in this area.

LOL. That is like saying Apple (iPhones) are a threat to Google (Android) when it was Apple that first brought touch-based smartphones to market.

You probably meant: "Google is a threat to Amazon in this area" because Amazon invented and still dominates the smart speaker category.

In other words, Google didn't know a market existed for such devices until Amazon created a market for them.

<comment><USER21> Amazon might have been the first to launch a dedicated device that can do voice search but Google was doing it(on Android) before such a device was launched by amazon.

<comment><USER20> Right, but were their efforts successful? That's the main difference here, bringing a new product to market _successfully_.

Long before voice assistants/search became a thing with smart phones there was Google 411 ... which no one remembers.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOOG-411](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOOG-411)

<comment><USER22> Yes, they had been successful with voice search long before Alexa ever came out, and continue to do it well. Google is THE search giant, you'd have to be acting intentionally obtuse to not understand his point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Could this be in any way related to the roll out of HQ2? Using that expansion to trim perceived dead-wood?

If so, this might be the first of a few re-orgs.

<comment><USER24> It seems like the point of HQ2 is to appease the current administration for tax cuts, allow for them to cut back on the fact they overexpanded their teams, get even more tax breaks from the local government where they expand, and get a bunch new fresh talent that can be worked to death.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> At first I assumed this was a stack ranking type "cutting the dead weight loose" move but doesn't appear to be so. The article cites "too much staff for the work" but that seems strange; Amazon has never been bereft of ambition ("Think Big"). What would be the real strategic impetus for slashing hundreds of positions? How does this jibe with leadership principles like "Hire and Develop the Best" and "Insist on the Highest Standards"?

<comment><USER26> Another leadership principle is frugality. No idea who or why people were fired, but could be to save $. I know that amazon in general is trying to get more frugal / profitable

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> So why do they want a second corporate headquarters?

<comment><USER28> They have very nearly exhausted the pool of strong technical talent that can be recruited locally within the seattle area, who are not already gainfully employed at some other tech company. Also because building new office campus space in Seattle is becoming a bottleneck. Amazon is spread out through a bunch of temporarily leased buildings until the new towers are finished. Also they have sort of exhausted the number of people who are willing to relocate to Seattle.

<comment><USER29> Also, a lot of the people who were willing to relocate to Seattle are reluctant to stay after years of worsening ostracization and seething resentment.

<comment><USER30> For me personally, I cannot ever relocate to Seattle because of the weather. I live in Boston, which has its own issues, but at least it's often sunny during the winter and I can get out for a walk most days.

I have a lot of family around Seattle and have visited frequently. One year I visited in May and it rained nonstop, oscillating between a soft drizzle to a torrential downpour, for 10 straight days! Too depressing for me.

<comment><USER28> I encourage everyone in the Seattle area to constantly remind everyone of how much it rains. Hopefully it will slightly cut down on the number of Californians moving to the PNW.

<comment><USER31> i live on the other side of the mountains, its usually nice an sunny over here for most of winter, but much colder. We also have much hotter summers and forest fires in the late summer, but hey, no grey gloom.

<comment><USER28> this is funny because a solid ten weeks last summer was a grey gloom caused by forest fires, at least as viewed in kittitas and yakima counties.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I wonder what type of positions are being targeted in these layoffs? They mentioned which groups but not whom.

<comment><USER33> Also worth noting that the article doesn't say anything about re-hiring, or transferring. Just laid off. I wonder why..

<comment><USER34> it does

"As part of our annual planning process, we are making head count adjustments across the company — small reductions in a couple of places and aggressive hiring in many others," a spokesman said. "For affected employees, we work to find roles in the areas where we are hiring."

disc: Amazon employee

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> They may be falling into the short term trap of wall street. With all the praise on Jeff Bezos recently, he will have to do anything to not take a step back and keep up with wall street's expectations.

</comment><comment><USER36> Well, the whole thing with Amazon is "frugality." That's a frugal thing to do.

</comment><comment><USER37> lol. Amazon employs almost half-million people, and still, a layoff of a couple hundred make it to the news.</comment>


Running 32bit Apps on macOS Catalina - <AUTHOR> https://www.codeweavers.com/about/blogs/jwhite/2019/12/10/celebrating-the-difficult-the-release-of-crossover-19 <comment><USER2> Great work by the Wine team. Ironic now that Windows 32-bit binaries are better supported than macOS 32-bit binaries.

<comment><AUTHOR> I wish Apple stopped releasing new major versions every year. When they changed to the annual release cycle with 10.7, the time an OS X version was supported dropped also by one year (from 4 to 3 years).</comment></comment>


The men fighting Florida's python epidemic - <AUTHOR> https://www.1843magazine.com/features/the-men-fighting-floridas-python-epidemic <comment><USER2> There is a simple natural permanent solution for this problem, just introduce an Apex predator - the majestic Jaguar. Jaguars used to inhabit the southern parts of North America - they seldom attack humans but they will happily eat snakes and alligators. They could restore health to the ecosystem, also make it more interesting, thus also benefiting the tourist industry.

<comment><USER3> "they seldom attack humans but they will happily eat snakes and alligators." This may not be a good idea. A lot of Indian towns are now facing problems of leopards attacking (and sometimes killing) humans, and these attacks have started to happen in crowded cities like Mumbai. Leopards earlier never attacked humans, but as they lost their habitat and the leopard population has grown, they now routinely attack people, sometimes carrying off kids.

<comment><USER4> Right. A leopard came at least once somewhere inside Pune, which is a big city, and attacked some people, IIRC. And there are many cases of leopards attacking people in smaller towns and villages, on the outskirts of them, that I have read of, in Maharashtra (state in India, in which Pune and Mumbai are) and probably in other states too.

<comment><USER5> There is actually some incredible footage of Jaguars inside Indian cities in planet earth 2. In case anyone is curious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Does anyone have links to more companies selling these animals' skins? Has anyone bought any of these and can share a review? Any other recent updates to what's going on in this market?

[https://pythonwildman.com/](https://pythonwildman.com/)

[http://web.archive.org/web/20180830211800/https://floridapyt...](http://web.archive.org/web/20180830211800/https://floridapythoncollection.com/)

\---

Unfortunately, it looks like their carcasses are toxic. So food cycling them won't work.

[https://www.outsideonline.com/1794941/florida-officals- dont-...](https://www.outsideonline.com/1794941/florida-officals-dont-eat- python-meat)

Anyone know how to cost-effectively bioremediate mercury laden materials?

<comment><USER6> Also, I'd like to support stellar Everglades python hunters, on Patreon etc, and it looks like there are several.. I need to go through this later: [https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=everglades+hunt...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=everglades+hunting+python)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Estimate of 100,000 pythons in the wild, perhaps starting from an inadvertent release in 1992, and ...

> Pythons face few predators here. In the spring, each adult female lays up to > 100 eggs. Once her female children reach the age of four, they too begin to > breed.

How many pythons would need to be caught each year to reduce the population to, say, less than 1,000? I think this infestation may need a different approach.

</comment><comment><USER8> To you that live in parts of the world that have snakes, do they affect you in any way?

There are no snakes where I live, and I'm extremely uncomfortable just thinking about the possibility of one entering your home or seeing one.

Imagine cleaning your garage and finding a snake curled up behind some stuff, the state of terror I would be in is out of this world.

<comment><USER9> most snakes are small and harmless. it's not any worse than seeing a rat or a lizard.

in the US the main snake everyone gets warned about is the coral snake, which has a distinctive pattern and is very poisonous.

<comment><USER10> Copperheads are bad, especially since many other species look like them. They can put you in the hospital. Avoid the triangle head.

<comment><USER11> The danger of copperheads is greatly overstated. Yes, they are venomous and will bite, but they are very rarely fatal to humans.

<comment><USER12> I wish that I could remember where I read this, but I recall that a majority of venemous snake bites in the U.S. were on the hand or lower arm, and/or involved alcohol. The implication was that a lot of the time people try to handle the things, especially while drunk.

This seems to reference a similar stat: [http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile- News/2008/07/07/Veno...](http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile- News/2008/07/07/Venomous/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Our family visited the Everglades a few years ago. This is indeed an epidemic to the natural habitat. In fact the guides said that anyone can come by and hunt Python. The biggest threat is to the birds in the area.

</comment><comment><USER14> I almost thought it was going to be a 2.7 vs 3.x discussion until I saw the cover photo...you got me, OP. Haha.

</comment><comment><USER15> For it to be a epidemic issue, I'd be expecting two well trained hunters of pythons to catch more than they did "In the first eight days the snake- catching tribesmen removed 13 of the snakes" as not even two a day.

Anybody know the population numbers or the growth rate (the pythons that is) as I'm suspecting that kind of removal rate would only be useful in controlling small area's of land and have little/negligible effect upon the overall population.

</comment><comment><USER16> Maybe these guys could learn something from these snake hunters from India:

[https://www.floridatoday.com/story/sports/2017/01/26/sargent...](https://www.floridatoday.com/story/sports/2017/01/26/sargent- tribesmen-spearhead-python-removal/97079892/)

</comment><comment><USER17> They should also pass laws to make it a major crime to harbor these creatures. Eg. 5 years min for possession, 20+ for dealing. Probably won't deter all the morons, but it will work on some.

</comment><comment><USER18> It's surprising there aren't special guns or shot being developed for shooting them.

</comment><comment><USER19> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

</comment><comment><USER20> Just switch to Ruby.

</comment><comment><USER21> So, finally learned what PEP stands for. It's Python Elamination Program, which is _"not currently accepting new python removal agents"_ ([https://www.sfwmd.gov/our-work/python-program](https://www.sfwmd.gov/our- work/python-program))

I'm mentioning that because that page has a few strong contenders for the "meaningless graph of the year" award. Did you know that the total length of pythons eliminated was over twice the maximum depth of the Grand Canyon or that their weight was less than that of two male African elephants?

So, if you take a male American elephants weight of pythons stupid enough to be hunted and place them head to tail, you can make a rope that allows you to abseil the Grand Canyon.

<comment><USER22> Surely the tensile strength of python is insufficient for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Can we lowercase _python_ in the title? This was not the Python I was looking for.

<comment><USER24> For a second I wondered why would you fight such a thing ? Then it hit me...

<comment><USER25> _" There was just whitespace, everywhere, it was... frightening"_

<comment><USER26> "In the middle of the fight, tabs and spaces invaded and war's brutality took a new turn."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I thought this was an article about the Mathworks Inc.

</comment><comment><USER28> This problem looks like could be solved with specialty drones.

<comment><USER25> Dropping poison? A python is a pretty big thing to kill some other way with a drone.

<comment><USER29> With some duct tape and a machete, you could try to hack together some python to make a drone that tries to hack pythons.

<comment><USER30> If we're giving in to the whole 'Let's build lethal killer drones' thing, it seems appropriate that it happens in the USA from someone's hacky python project.

<comment><USER15> Comments like that need a disclaimer - Don't read whilst drinking coffee.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I misread this post as having 1843 points and was very puzzled for a few minutes...

</comment><comment><USER32> The solution is really easy. You just need to pay people for each dead python that they bring in.

And problem solved.

<comment><USER33> [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect)

<comment><USER34> I don't understand the downvotes to the GP, he is clearly referring in jest to this.

<comment><USER32> Thanks for noticing. I'm sorry that you got downvoted for it.

My comment was a test, I wanted to see how it played out. Even with such common knowledge topic, I see that there is not enough "tone" in my comment for people to be able to read its intention.

This is a similar case to Poe's law.

Next time I will try with ";)". I guess that it will clarify the intent of the comment.

So, no fault in the people that did not notice. Next time I will do better.

* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/03/us-russia-usa-snowden-idUSKBN0LZ1U020150303

<comment><USER2> I doubt this has anything to do with his condition in Russia. I think its timed very nicely to coincide public sentiment in the US. A movie about his courageous acts just won an Oscar. Hundreds of news stories brought to light by his efforts have outraged the US public over the last couple years. Him and his team might be running low on hard-hitting stories and would rather deal with an Obama DOJ than whatever comes next. If he wishes to turn himself in, the time to act is in the next 3-6 months before the 2016 primaries heat up.

If he returns to the US soon, we will see massive demonstrations in the street demanding his release. I doubt he'd end up serving more than a couple years in prison. Even then, life abroad is no doubt preferable to life in the federal pen. It's smart for him to be putting feelers out right now, but its still far from certain that he's coming stateside anytime soon.

<comment><USER3> I agree with everything you said except I think it is a little naive to believe he'll only get "more than a couple years in prison."

Here's the thing: Snowden, regardless of morals, upset a lot very powerful and influential people. These people might have calmed down a little since they were calling for him to get the death sentence, but these aren't the kind of people who won't try to get revenge if given half an opportunity.

Just look at what they did to Chelsea Manning (formerly Bradley Manning), he got 35 years(!) for leaking a bunch of embarrassing diplomatic cables where key US politicians wrote what they really thought about foreign leaders and diplomats.

Snowden upset people in the US government just as much. He essentially took a bunch of power away from them, and people in those positions shrive on power. Do you really think they won't get every pound of fat out of Snowden that they can? Because I do. 35 years if he's lucky.

<comment><USER2> Chelsea Manning's case was complicated by the fact that he was enlisted when he got caught. Daniel Ellsberg only ended up serving 2 years because his case was dismissed for prosecutorial misconduct. Something of this nature is unlikely to happen in Snowden's case, but mounting public pressure could force some sympathy. To clarify, I think they'll try to give him 200 years in prison but I don't think it'll stick.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wouldn't be surprised if something else is happening. While his lawyer 'negotiates' look for snowden to turn up in a different extradition-free country.

I think he's too smart to believe any platitudes about a "fair trial." Of course it will be a fair trial, just like manning got along with his years of solitary - completely fair and normal.

As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon?

<comment><USER5> _> > As for a presidential pardon, I don't think that can happen without a conviction. Can you get a preemptive pardon?_

Worked for Ford and Nixon: [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311](http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Proclamation_4311)

<comment><USER6> I found this summary when it came up in a recent previous discussion:

[http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution- all...](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/05/opinion/l-constitution-allows- pardons-before-conviction-590688.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Fugitive ex-U.S. spy Snowden in talks on returning home: lawyer"

What a horrible, slanted, and incredibly unfactual title for this article.

Of course he's negotiating. Why not?

<comment><USER8> Fugitive is correct. ex-Spy no. He was a network admin, not an analyst.

<comment><USER9> he worked for the CIA with cover identities as well

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> He probably stands a better shot of a deal with Obama, rather than whichever administration comes next. I think Hilary had a lot of egg on her face with the leaks (though using public email is her own fault!) and the Republicans would crucify him. I think it's now or never for him.

<comment><USER11> obama has used the espionage act more than any other president.

<comment><USER12> Really? Source?

<comment><USER13> To get sources, I highlighted the sentence, right-clicked and chose Search Google for...

<comment><USER12> Is it wrong to ask someone that makes an assertion to provide a source or evidence? I don't think I asked in an offensive way.

<comment><USER14> As a component of discourse, asking for a source during an online discussion implies that such a source is not trivial to find, and thus calls into question the assertion for which a source is being asked for. Prepending your inquiry with "Really?" also contributed to that note of incredulity.

Particularly in a case where a source or citation is extremely easy to find, asking for one comes off as less of an honest inquiry and more of a rhetorical device designed to discredit the person making the assertion, regardless of intent.

<comment><USER15> Don't make claims unless you're prepared to provide the source. It's not anyone's responsibility but your own should you put forth said claim.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Wouldn't he just disappear in one of these secret courts?

<comment><USER17> I don't understand how he ever believes he could get a fair trial. I commend him for the belief in the rule of law that the sentiment represents, but he embarrassed the world's most powerful intelligence establishment - you know, the people responsible for killing people who want to kill us in secretive ways.

There's nothing I'd consider out of bounds for possible retaliation, not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems."

<comment><USER18> _not even a "heart attack" or "engine problems."_

At this point, what would anyone gain from that?

<comment><USER19> Revenge.

[http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want- edw...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edward- snowden-dead)

<comment><USER17> "I would love to put a bullet in his head," one Pentagon official, a former special forces officer, said bluntly. "I do not take pleasure in taking another human beings life, having to do it in uniform, but he is single- handedly the greatest traitor in American history."

Chilling

<comment><USER20> Also love how they are completely ignoring the people who have literally assassinated a president.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Maybe he could get the same deal as Petraeus?

<comment><USER3> What? The dude that had an affair? I don't understand the relevance of that or what point you're trying to make. Can you clarify?

<comment><USER21> Petraeus reached a plea deal today for handing over classified material to his mistress. Looks like he'll get 2 years of probation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Only way for him to return is presidential pardon. Not going to happen.

<comment><USER23> It's not inconceivable. I have very little faith in the personal integrity of Obama, but his last acts as President would happen after the election of his successor. If he wanted to do it, people would whine about it for a few months and forget long before the next election.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright?

Just thinking it certainly would be nice if Obama used that card on the way out given he's not up for re-election.

I suppose he has to be convicted first, but maybe he could convict him and pardon him on the same day!!

<comment><USER25> > Does the president, alone, have the ability to pardon him outright?

Yes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I hope he remembers to negotiate in regular trips to Glasgow University so he can finally carry out his function as Rector.

</comment><comment><USER27> I'd be worried about staying in Moscow right now if I were Snowden. Whether true or not, Russian government is acting fully confident that Nemstov was killed as a false flag. If they get a little more angry about accusations the "CIA" might kill Snowden just to prove a point.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a US prison is preferable to staying in Russia. I'd say best case for him is 10 years in jail. Because there is almost no question that he broke the law; he will be arguing intent and conscientiousness.

His chief demand will likely be that the government not charge him under the espionage act, which is so broad and inflexible it would not even allow him to present a defense. No idea what other legal statutes he could be charged under, but whatever they are would have to at least allow the possibility of raising the "I did this in the best interests of the country, not the best interests of our military contractors and bureaucrats" defense.

Oh, and also that the trial will be a media circus and keep the NSAs surveillance programs in the news for the greater part of the next decade.

<comment><USER23> > I'm guessing his situation in Russia has deteriorated to the point where a > US prison is preferable to staying in Russia.

That's rather extreme, and I'm not aware of the slightest shred of evidence for it. As far as we know, he's still living a fairly normal life with his girlfriend in Moscow. He could be concerned about Russia not renewing his status in the future, though.

<comment><USER28> It could just be a case of the Russian government realizing he's never going to give them what they want, so they decided to stop helping him out in the hopes that a lengthy prison sentence might encourage him.

What I did get out of Citizenfour is that Snowden understands international politics, and that he would know his existence in Russia will last only as long as Putin needs him for. But given the increasing distrust in Russia towards all things American right now, it can't be a particularly welcoming environment for someone who considers himself a crusader of truth and freedom.

<comment><USER9> >It could just be a case of the Russian government realizing he's never going to give them what they want, so they decided to stop helping him out in the hopes that a lengthy prison sentence might encourage him.

"what they want"? he entered the country without any of the documents if those are what you're referring to. his safe life in russia acts as a snub to washington at a time when US/russian relations are at a historic low, which is presumably the entire reason they gave him a visa and refuse to extradite him to begin with. it's no great expenditure on the part of the russian state to host him, he's just a guy living with his girlfriend

<comment><USER28> Right, but if you're an FSB officer you're thinking "No way this guy doesn't have access to the documents. Let's keep him here and spy on him in case he leads us to them." After a few years, they realize he was telling the truth, and he's suddenly of a lot less value to them.

Eventually, Russia will want to warm up relations with the US. When that day comes, Snowden's time in Russia will be at an end. It's convenient for Putin to be able to use the US as a punching bag, but Putin will not be in power forever. It's probably better for him to find an exit now and have a bit more control over his own destiny.

<comment><USER9> you're projecting a whole lot here. there is no reason for snowden to have the documents and it would make much more sense for him to leave them with the journalists, if you accept his stated motivations. again, granting him asylum costs them nothing and acts as an symbol they can hold up to highlight US spying and hypocrisy. they benefit in PR from hosting him and you seem to have this bizarre idea that russians just execute everyone that isn't producing value or something. it's exactly those stereotypes that russia is holding up a mirror to by hosting him, people act like they're all ruthless barbarians but the US is the country trying to crucify this guy for leaking invasive spy programs to the public. they get to call out that hypocrisy

<comment><USER28> It's not just Russia; when you dabble in geopolitics, everything becomes a bargaining chip. The PR benefit of hosting Snowden is short-lived; his profile will fade over time if he keeps his mouth shut. Eventually, when Russia wants to improve relations with the US, they will likely use Snowden as a bargaining chip. He's not worth much to Russia, but the US wants him really bad. So they can use Snowden to extract something they want from the US (reduction in sanctions, for example) for relatively little cost to themselves. But there was always very little downside to Russia here, and a significant amount of upside: right now, the upside is in holding Snowden up as an example of US hypocrisy, but later that upside might be that he can be traded for something more valuable.

I'm not trying to single out Russia as a bad actor here -- the US behaved in a very similar fashion with Soviet spies and dissidents in the 70s and 80s. This is why you don't want to get involved with geopolitics - your future is controlled by situations outside your control. Snowden strikes me as a smart guy who knows all of this, which is why negotiating a return to the US makes sense for him.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> unrelated question, but how does HN rank threads, at time of posting this thread has 89 points, 106 comments, and 1 hour but ranks in the 50s

<comment><USER30> Certain topics/keywords get penalized; I bet "Snowden" is one such keyword.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> This would be a perfect movie.

</comment><comment><USER13> The average American thinks an arrest is tantamount to guilt; one of many signs of this is that mugshots are made public here. Snowden should stay exiled.

<comment><USER32> Well, technically, he _is_ guilty.

<comment><USER13> So was Rosa Parks. We have a whistleblower law, along with a gov't oath to defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws. So his prison potential isn't so clear.

<comment><USER33> > defend the Constitution, that potentially trumps other laws

I can't see how it couldn't trump other laws!

Think about it. If you can pass a new law which trumps the Constitution via a method that doesn't involve a Constitutional amendment, then you've just done an end-run around the theoretically supreme law of the land. And if you can do that, the Constitution is completely meaningless.

The whole point of the document is that it outlines some bedrock stuff and it's neigh impossible to change unless everyone in the country really agrees that it needs to via a 3/4 majority of the states ratifying.

I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the contrary and we see this play out all the time with the Supreme Court. Things get struck down all the time as unconstitutional and that's the end of it.

I can't see how the founding document of our government can somehow be subverted by other laws unless those laws are deemed as important via ratification.

<comment><USER13> > I would argue that the Constitution absolutely overrides laws to the > contrary

We're agreeing with each other? It's up to each person who takes an oath to defend the Constitution, to ignore and even fight against unconstitutional laws, i.e. ones that in an ideal world would be overridden by a fair Supreme Court.

Couldn't reply earlier due to "you're posting too fast" limitation, even after a day. I may have to wait several days to reply again.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


A New Kind of Conspicuous Consumption - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2015/03/stuffocation-the-weird-way-facebook-and-instagram-make-us-happier/ <comment><USER2> A few years ago when being a foodie was all the rage, my friends would upload tons of pictures of exquisite meals from expensive restaurants.

It inspired me to create a food blog on facebook. Every week I would upload something tacky and anti-yuppy. My posts included Choco Tacos, Wendy's hamburgers, and cups of ramen.

Now I'm thinking of posting my experiences at the grocery story, Home Depot, etc.

<comment><USER3> You may think you're doing the opposite of what they're doing, but actually you're doing the same thing.

Conspicuous nonconsumption [0], as I call it, is all the rage in SF and among engineers. That's why everyone wears hoodies and tshirts: to show that they're different from MBAs and the suits and the bankers. But that's just another way to show your status: you are the member of an exclusive club that doesn't need suits to have high status.

And so with your blog. You're identifying as part of a group that's too good for status symbols. You're explicitly saying "I'm not like you" and implicitly saying "I'm better than you because I don't need whatever things you find valuable".

You're showing off your non-consumption for high status, in exactly the same way that they're showing off their consumption for high status. At the end of the day, you're both just showing off for high status! [1]

[0] See also "stealth wealth"

[1] No judgement here, btw: in tech, I think we all do this, me included.

<comment><USER4> Hoodies and t-shirts?! That's so 2012. What part of San Francisco are you in? All the cool startups in SoMa are enforcing a strict lumbersexual dress code these days.

<comment><USER5> somebody sent me a post about the lumbersexual thing ( I think it was this one : [http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/6235-the- lumbersexual-...](http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/6235-the-lumbersexual- is-here-to-chop-down-metrosexuals) ). Sort of bugs me that some basic clothing that's good for outdoors and daily life in the northwest gets co-opted into a fashion thing

<comment><USER6> Sigh. I grew up on the Olympic Peninsula (far western Washington) and this is basically my whole wardrobe. Moved to the bay area over the summer and now I feel gross wearing it. Hopefully fashion moves on soon and I can wear the clothes I have and like in peace.

<comment><USER4> Don't worry. In another year or so, everybody will shave their beards and trade in their plaid shirts and blue Wrangers so that they can revolutionize fashion by disrupting some other group's wardrobe.

In the meantime, you should consider setting up shop as a recruiter. You could probably place your Washington friends in jobs at startups here fairly easily. If they can memorize a few words/acronyms (Angular, MVVM, etc.) and are willing to show up to the interview with an axe for good measure, you'll be cashing checks in no time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I feel like an alien reading an article like this.

The idea of "showing off" with vacations, weekend events or even professional accomplishments seems preposterous to me. How is this socially acceptable is beyond my comprehension.

Likewise, I'm probably only interested in knowing where 10 or so people spent their vacation, and even then, only when the narrative is directed at me or a small number of friends. I can't understand how a public parade of general info and photos can be anything other than utterly shallow and boring.

Needless to say, I don't get Facebook.

<comment><USER8> I feel alien reading this too and I have ~500 friends on Facebook.

I don't see people doing anything like this. Maybe I'm selective but really next-to no friends share their consumption. I think the share-your-sunsets- and-dives-into-waterfalls is the movie version of Facebook. We wind up sharing cats, snark and sad moments.

<comment><USER9> curious: how old are you? location? friend's locations?

i'm 33, sf now oregon raised, and i'd say in general i see less fb usage by my friends, but those that still do use it, it's almost all positive, brag-ish sharing.

people i know with kids, especially, it seems almost impossible to imagine sharing 'cats, snark, and sad moments'.

<comment><USER10> I feel this, 32M with kids. FB usage by actual friends that I cared about fell to zero and my feed was full of shallow experiential grandstanding.

Deleted my FB account but copped a hiding from the silent majority for being 'hard to get in touch with' and feel a bit guilty about this but overall life is better without FB or any other form of social media.

True experientialism is being there in the moment, not standing outside carefully curating the moment for others to gawk at.

Edit: *experientialism not experimentalism

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This article is consistent with my anecdotal experience, where I've noticed high importance placed on travel as a class credential. I grew up in a household that was low income enough that we never vacationed far from home. Now that I'm a white collar software developer on a solid middle class income mixing with middle class folks, mentioning that I've hardly traveled out of the country generates reactions of surprise, to the extent that I often feel I have to explain myself and my lack of overseas travel.

<comment><USER12> _Now that I 'm a white collar software developer on a solid middle class income mixing with middle class folks_

Are you in the Bay Area? The Bay Area is obsessed with travel. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since I do feel that travel is great, but many in the Bay Area have no idea what it's like to come from a background where it's not even considered a possibility.

When I lived and worked in Arizona, the only "travel" anyone was interested in were weekend trips to Mexico, or maybe visiting an iconic American city (e.g. SF). If I'd brought up Thailand, they wouldn't even have known enough to make ladyboy jokes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> "There be three degrees of this hiding and veiling of a man's self. The first, closeness, reservation, and secrecy; when a man leaveth himself without observation, or without hold to be taken, what he is. The second, dissimulation, in the negative; when a man lets fall signs and arguments, that he is not, that he is. And the third, simulation, in the affirmative; when a man industriously and expressly feigns and pretends to be, that he is not."

\-- Francis Bacon

</comment><comment><USER14> This is one thing I don't get. Why do some people like to pretend to be anti- consumption while engaged in an economy based on consumption?

Let's put it this way, if all the people, no matter what their income, just took their income, spent it on the basics and then saved or invested the remainder, we'd all pretty much end up poorer. No titans of industry (who would buy consumer goods in a if consumption was avoided), few service workers, few skilled jobs, fewer blue collar jobs. Mostly we'd have government employees and people in essential services (farmers, physicians, educators, etc).

No work at Starbucks, or Amazon, or Google or Tesla. I mean, who would need to buy anything beside the basics from Amazon, and since commerce would be de- emphasized, no need for advertising (adwords) on google.

I guess we could live pretty retro lives, living like we were all Amish or similar, but is that what would be best?

Certainly disposable consumerism is arguably bad, but what if we all decided quality was paramount and instead of buying ten cheap things, we bought one expensive but durable thing costing the same as the ten cheap things?

Anyway, our economic system, neo-liberal capitalism, (and others as well) depend on consumption, frugal wealthy people would impact the economy negatively.

Look, I dislike Hollywood (it's cheap, base, and unimaginative, rarely is there "Art") for various reasons, but, at the same time, I understand that overpaid actors mean that lots of ancillary jobs in Hollywood exist due to their opulent, unfrugal, spednthrift lifestyles.

<comment><USER15> The difference is whether consumption is relative equal across society, or is the masses serving elites, and if we are paying for each others good graces, or to burn polluting energy sources. A dollar spent paying someone to burn the plastic remains of your frappucino and then treat your diabetes, or a dollar spent on a blood diamond or chocolate farmed by a slave child, could be spent paying someone to pick up litter, or cure genetic disease, or teach you how to play music. Not all consumption is equally valuable.

<comment><USER14> Yes, of course things could be improved upon. What happens is people say "overconsumption" as if not consuming would somehow solve things. It would not. All things being equal, it would make things worse (except perhaps improve ecology, but it's debatable, since we might miss develping some superior technologies).

Just one example. Everyone cooked at home. No restaurants. No cooks, chefs, sole proprietors, severs, etc. in the restaurant industry. There would be no restaurant industry. We could go on. Extending this, "getting rid of conspicuous consumption" might hide things, which, I understand, it makes us feel better, but solves nothing by itself.

<comment><USER16> One of the things I think that tends to underpin "overconsumption" arguments is the idea of consumerism as a cultural force: The idea that if you're leaving your home and going to public space, your business will involve, at some point, making a purchase, and this purchase is intended to reflect on your identity.

Now, of course that isn't what people actually do, but that's how we've aligned everything: If you "go out" but you don't do work or buy something while you're out, you're transgressing the cultural rules. But if we design spaces and situations that are only for buying, we cut off other avenues of experience.

An idea I recall from a well-known chef, which I'm probably butchering a bit, is that a high-end restaurant experience isn't there just to be everyday consumption, but to inspire one's own cooking as well. That's very different from the purpose of going to a McDonald's, and the simplistic branding wars of "McDonald's vs. Burger King" or "Coke vs. Pepsi." It's the latter type of thing that anticonsumerism really seeks to stamp out.

<comment><USER14> While you're right. People don't get uncomfortable with 'regular people' going to MacD's, or drinking coke. They may express horror with MacD the corp or Coke the corp, but not the consumer.

They have an issue with people who show off their wealth --like buying apple products in the face of cheaper (better?) alternatives. Here the opposite happens, they at times praise the companies but bash the consumers for showing off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Am I the only one that _likes_ when people post their travel pictures on Facebook? I find it interesting and like to see all the beautiful places that I can't go to now that I'm married.

</comment><comment><USER18> Remember that on Facebook, "sharing" is spamming. If you're getting unwanted "sharing" from "close friends", demote them to "friends" to stop that.</comment>


WikiFieldtrip: For geography nerds (or travelers) - <AUTHOR>

the other day i whipped up a mashup:
http://www.wikifieldtrip.org
check it out...  the parser is still a bit under construction, but it's still fun.
comments, suggestions? <comment><USER2> Clickable: <http://www.wikifieldtrip.org>

</comment><comment><USER3> Would be nice if they were sorted or filtered by interestingness or type.</comment>


2011 Startup School - <AUTHOR> http://startupschool.org/ <comment><USER2> I got on the cheapest flight I could find and went to the very first Startup School. And while I did not walk out and change the world, I walked out and changed my life. Streaming or not, my advice is to find your way there by hook or by crook and attend in person.

<comment><USER3> I attended the first startup school (in Boston). There was a large gathering at YC's office the night before the talks. A few of us were still there when pg was ready to leave. Despite having never met any of us before, he let us stay, asking only that we double-check that the door locked on our way out.

I'd like to think that I would have the same trust in my attendees if I were him. Not a big deal, but a special moment that I'll never forget :)

<comment><USER4> I was there too. PG is right that the most amazing thing about them is the energy. I can really only think of two or three other times in my life where it felt like there was almost electricity in the air.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Startup School changed my life.

I went to Startup School 2008 during my second year at Stanford. I had never heard of YCombinator, but a friend involved with the Business Association of Stanford Entrepreneurial Students (BASES) had encouraged me to check it out because it was on campus. After hearing inspiring talks from PG, PB, SamA, DHH and the other speakers and meeting lots of founders, I joined BASES, where I met and started working with Ricky. I knew pretty soon that I wanted to start a company with him.

Fast forward a year to Startup school 2009: Ricky and I had been working on a few ideas while in school and met Mark, who had just come back to Stanford after dropping out to work on a startup. I ended up working with Mark on a class project a few months later before the three of us formed a company and were fortunate enough to be part of the amazing Summer 2010 batch of YC.

Attending Startup School last year was surreal - here I was right out of school working on my own company surrounded by an amazing community of entrepreneurs. And the energy at Startup School was STILL overwhelming, even after having gone twice and been through YC. There aren't many other places on the planet where you find several hundred smart, super hard-working, energetic people who firmly believe they can build the next Google packed into a single auditorium.

<comment><USER6> Same, SuS 2008 was one of the most memorable days of my life, and one of the things that really steeled my resolve to start something. The presentation by DHH that year is probably #1 or 2 on my all-time list.

<comment><USER7> Weird. I was there too, and I didn't manage to bump into you, David or Ricky at all. But then again, there were boat loads of people there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The speaker list is just those confirmed so far. It will grow as we get closer to the event.

<comment><USER8> Any chance of live streaming the event this year?

<comment><USER9> Seconded. Being in Canada means I can't easily fly all the way to Stanford.

<comment><USER10> If you get accepted, it's definitely worth flying in for. It's something I believe everyone should experience, especially if you're thinking about creating or joining a startup. More for the social aspects than the content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you're around Boston this fall, we're doing Startup Bootcamp again at MIT. Date is 9/24. More details to follow early next week.

<http://startupbootcamp.mit.edu/>

<comment><USER12> That notice saying registration is closed, I assume that is for the 2010 bootcamp?

<comment><USER11> Yes-- the new site will be live next week.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I went to the first startup school in Cambridge with my then girlfriend (now wife!). Flew to NYC for cheap tickets and took the chinatown bus to Boston. I was already working at a cool startup then but it started me along a path of several iterations of trial & error which led to RideCell. Now I am on my third year leading a fast growing, cash flow positive company that makes a real difference.

Had some great discussions with edw519 about pawn shops, with tlb about remote receptionists, with Scoble, some guys from loopt, and one of the Lockitron founders in 2010.

Startup school gives me a boost every time I attend. Hope to do so again this year.

</comment><comment><USER14> Yay! It was fun to speak at the first one of these.

<comment><USER13> I remember your talk and enjoyed it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Last time I went to Startup School (2007) Drew Houston was just an attendee hoping to get into YC. I still remember him telling be about this syncing thing ... sounded like it just might work.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm moving to the Bay Area tomorrow. I'm attending my first meeting for Rails people in a few days! It's mind-blowing to be in an area where I'm not the only one who likes this stuff.

So obviously I'm very excited by the idea of attending Startup School. Man, years ago now, DHH's talk formed the basis of what I want to do with myself.

<comment><USER17> Are you talking about SFRuby (about the meeting with Rails people)?

<comment><USER16> I was talking about the Easy Bay group (<http://www.meetup.com/EBRuby/>), but now that you mention it I should join some SF groups. Come to think of it SF is only 30 minutes away from Berkeley where I'll be.

<comment><USER17> East Bay Ruby looks much more of a conference than a meetup. SFRuby's basically just talk to people who are good at/learning RoR and code. It's also weekly.

SFRuby is probably better for meeting people who code RoR, and East Bay Ruby sounds like it's better for learning something related to RoR.

<comment><USER16> So are the hacknights the best times to hang out and meet people? I certainly do want to meet people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> All other things being equal, does how early (or late) you fill up the application form have any bearing on whether or not you make the grade? (I hope not)

<comment><AUTHOR> Not at all. With YC applications it helps a little to apply early, but these we go through in one shot after the deadline.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> One of the best events I have been to. I highly recommend attending in person. The atmosphere that day in the auditorium was amazing and you get to meet people from around the world.

Have I mentioned it's free?

</comment><comment><USER8> What's the criteria on who gets accepted to attend?

</comment><comment><USER20> Would people like a co-founders meetup that evening? I'm sure everyone's creative juices will be in full swing by the evening.

<comment><AUTHOR> There will be some form of event in the evening. We just haven't worked out the details yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Would someone over 40 be out of place at this event?

<comment><USER22> Not if that someone over 40 is starting or planning to start a startup soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I just moved to the Bay Area and I'm really looking forward to this.

Out of curiosity, what kind of activities are there going to be to promote ice breaking and networking? I ask because all the best events I've been to always make sure to pay as much attention to promoting networking as they do the speakers.

On top of that, would it be possible to make sure the name tags are really big and easy to read casually at a distance. It's always much easier to strike up a conversation when you can glance at someone's name tag and easily read their name, twitter handle or HN handle without having to lean in and stare.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm applying! I already have the funds saved for the plane ticket. I'm coming from the East coast. I wanted to apply last year but a.) I didn't have the funds and 2.) I wasn't confident in my coding skills as I am now. I'm super excited, because even if I don't get in I'll still be one step better than where I was last August :)

I'm a little uncertain about housing, but worst case scenario, I'm willing to take a same day flight back.

</comment><comment><USER25> Just filled out the application. It would be very cool to go but I have no clue what criteria they will use to weed people out. I guess we will see!

<comment><USER26> Same here. Nothing to lose I guess but I'd estimate ~0% chance of acceptance!

<comment><USER27> Don't underestimate yourself, friend.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I just applied and will be flying in from Cape Town, South Africa to attend if I make it. I've never even been to the States, but I've spent the last 5 years of my life dreaming about spending time in the Valley. This seems like the perfect excuse. No idea where I'm gonna stay, how I'm going to get around, or how I'm going to make it work, but I'm going to try anyway. Can't wait!

</comment><comment><USER29> Never been, but I've watched many of the videos repeatedly. Some great talks came out of Startup School. Can't wait to watch this year's.

</comment><comment><USER30> How do they decide which applications to accept?

</comment><comment><USER31> Getting my team to apply now! Thanks for the heads up! Edit: Im in LA and if I qet the invite, Ill be driving up but I can fit 2 more people in the car for the ride if any locals want to carpool. I have room to host 2 people at my place here in LA also if anyone is flying in to LAX for any reason lol.

</comment><comment> james-fend Crossing fingers to get an invite. Im all the way in Nashville, TN but I'll def scrape up a plane ticket to go.. and possibly never come back to TN, lol..

</comment><comment><USER32> I'm a college student who doesn't have much money and thus may not have the funds to take the trip. Should I not even apply or should I apply regardless?

<comment><AUTHOR> You have a good deal of time before the deadline, so you can wait to apply till you're more certain you can come.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> If accepted, you can crash at my apartment in the valley for a day. I dont have a big place, but I can easily host 2 people. Will go thru AirBnB I guess.

</comment><comment><USER34> Anyone coming from Israel?

I'd much prefer to spend the long travel with some cool people, rather then going alone.

</comment><comment><USER35> This seems like an an invaluable opportunity and I hope I can make it.

</comment><comment><USER36> I think I will organize a pilgrimage from my school's CS department.

</comment><comment><USER37> I've never been to this, planning on attending!

</comment><comment><USER15> What are the chances of a startup open house?

</comment><comment><USER38> Anyone road tripping this from back East?

</comment><comment><USER39> watched the old videos over and over gain, cant wait to attend in person ie if I get selected :)

<comment><USER37> I'm watching them right now. Just applied, can't wait to get selected!

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I would love to hear Jack Dorsey!

</comment><comment><USER41> Is it difficult to get accepted if you haven't launched a startup yet?

</comment><comment> johnx123-up My Indian pal is more interested.. Few questions from him:

1\. Will PG make it in India?

2\. Can I fly there to attend? Will the stay be arranged?

<comment> johnx123-up Why downvoting? (Answers will help me)</comment></comment>


Show HN: Popcorn Messaging – Anonymously chat with people within 1 mile - <AUTHOR> https://appsto.re/us/bTI0Q.i <comment><USER3> A lot of the people whom I met in Vancouver via Twitter I actually met via an app called Twinkle, which was essentially a wrapper around Twitter that added this sort of geographically-located content, and which was released shortly after the iPhone 3G and iOS 2.0 added location-based functionality (but long before Twitter did).

Basically, Twinkle could work on its own or with a Twitter account. When you posted a message, it would go to Twinkle's servers along with geolocation information, and then Twinkle would post it to Twitter in turn. Other Twinkle users could see your post via Twinkle's servers, as well as your actual Twitter feed. It was a fantastic way to discover new local users, and you could scale the radius up or down (from I think 1km to 10km).

I know one person in particular I ended up seeing in my stream a lot because we both lived in one area and worked in another area, and lots of others just worked in the same area as I did. You could easily Twitter-follow them, which let you take those relationships out of Twinkle.

For someone who was completely new to the city and the community, it was a great way to start getting connected to people in the area.

<comment><USER4> Wow… I had no idea people still remembered Twinkle. I was one of the engineers at Tapulous, back in the day, and worked briefly on Twinkle.

That service was actually a huge disaster for us. The users were mostly tweens, and we had a huge Chartroulette-esque problem with child porn, where users would expose themselves through the service. Our community management team is probably scarred for life. Our engineers also hated it, because its backend was horrendous and we had a lot of availability issues; the service would go down constantly.

The very last thing I did at Tapulous / Disney (on my last day) was kill off Twinkle, shutting down the servers. Everybody was quite happy to see it gone.

<comment><USER5> I definitely remember Twinkle! I used it daily.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It would be cool if the "radius" automatically scaled to ensure there are not too many or too few people in the chat. This could be accomplished with a Voronoi diagram.

<comment><AUTHOR> hmm, the 1 mile radius is important to me. psychologically, knowing that the people you're talking to are within walking distance is exciting

<comment><USER7> Less exciting if there's no one using the app within that radius though, no?

<comment><AUTHOR> there are a million and one apps that offer the ability to chat with people. if it's a concern people can use one of those

<comment><USER8> Wow - sounds kinda hostile and doesn't really address the original point (sorry if I'm misreading your response). What's so special about the exact mile radius that couldn't be, say, a bit more flexible if conditions aren't perfect? Couldn't the app expand that to a mile and a half if no-one's present within a mile? Etc. I think that's the original point that was being made.

<comment><AUTHOR> sorry if it sounded hostile, i appreciated the comment! my point was that the integrity of the app relies on a fixed radius. im not opposed to increasing the fixed radius initially while there arent a lot of users. however expanding the radius according to nearby users makes the location aspect less relevant. if the nearest user is 20 miles away than they should probably use another app.

<comment><USER9> Just wanted to chime in and say I get you, man. "Chat with people within 1 mile" is just a better thing than "Chat with people within a radius adjusted based on how many users are online nearby."

<comment><USER7> Yep, that's fair enough. And you certainly don't have to make an app that's useful for everyone everywhere. Still, getting it to catch on will be hard enough even if people can find others to chat with, it makes sense to do what you can to help with that. How about keeping the tagline the same, and keeping it at 1 mile as long as there's someone there to chat with. But if not, you could prompt the user: _There 's no one else online within a mile. Want to look a bit further away?_ Or something along those lines.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm curious about how this actually works, geometrically. Example:

A <\----> B <\----> C

Those are three people. Imagine each segment is 1 mile long. So A can see B; B can see C; but A can't see C. If B and C are having a conversation, does A see B talking to someone who effectively does not exist?

<comment><AUTHOR> turns out you're right. anybody have suggestions on how to fix this?

<comment><USER11> Why not group people into free-form clusters based on user density? So, if you have 5 people that are effectively in the same building, and 3 people that are outside of it in various directions, group those 3 into the 5. This has the effect of forming virtual chat rooms that come and go.

Not sure what you're using on the backend, but if it's PostGIS... here you go: [http://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/11567/spatial- cluster...](http://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/11567/spatial-clustering- with-postgis)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I almost created one of these, except for news. Hyper-local news is largely missing - I was going to mash up Twitter, Instagram, and in-app updates to help people get a sense of what's happening immediately around them.

This is actually a great idea to solve this problem though.

The news use-case is for city life. When you hear a gunshot or a car accident occurs on your street or you see smoke off in the distance or you hear music playing nearby or you see a drove of cop cars driving by - how can you find out more about that?

News doesn't have a hyper local channel, but it could.

This app points at a bigger market - the "directly nearby" market - <USER2> really has only been fully tapped by mapping/location-sourcing applications.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks! one of our biggest goals was to maintain privacy by only requiring a username to sign up.

<comment><USER13> And we made InstaBAM for finding instagram users and photos near you (or anywhere on a map) [https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/instabam!-explore- instagram/...](https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/instabam!-explore- instagram/id437615875)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So, talked with some folks about an idea similar to this a few months ago.

As the conversation evolved, they came up with "tagging" a given chat room to denote what was in it, and letting people choose their own names...some kind of "handle" on the identified "channel".

The proposed messaging fabric would use servers hosted in the cloud, each functioning as sort of a repeater to their client mobile devices.

A sort of internet-relayed chat, if you will.

There is nothing new under the sun.

EDIT:

The location functionality of this could be bodged together really quickly with the geo pg extensions, I'd bet.

<comment><USER15> After seeing the criticisms of Dropbox[1] on Hacker News, I'm much more analytical of the stereotypical "critical top post(s)" when introducing a new project. Getting candid, constructive critical feedback is certainly one of the values of posting on HN, but criticising that a product or service is just a combination of known technologies is an incredibly weak criticism: it could be applied to _any_ innovation.

Here's my litmus test for whether something has already been done: if I asked ten random people to solve the problem this thing is trying to solve, could they name a product that solves it?

Ex:

* "How would you have a folder on your computer that stays synchronized across multiple computers and is accessible online?" -> Dropbox or Google Drive (not an acceptable answer: "I'd set up rsync to run as a daemon syncing to a VPS on each computer")

* "How would you send public messages to people you didn't know in close proximity?" -> Popcorn Messaging?

1\. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863)

<comment><USER14> Don't get me wrong, it's a nifty little app.

I'm just pointing out that I heard an idea a few months ago that was nearly identical. Our advice to the folks was "Yeah, this is cool--go code it!".

These toy campus apps are really great for building experience and learning; that said, they're still just that: toy campus apps.

The obligatory "but but but facebook" rebuttal is that it was a matter of timing more than anything else.

<comment><USER16> Don't you think calling this a "little app" and "toy campus app" is a little bit condescending? And that dismissing it as a simple rehashing of other ideas is not actually constructive? How many successful new products/services in the last decade _aren 't_ just rehashes of existing ideas?

I'd say kudos to the author for actually rolling up your sleeves and making this idea happen; it's way harder and more admirable IMO to do that than it is to be an armchair critic or armchair ideationist.

<comment><USER14> Would you like me to give you some Ruby code that would emulate this functionality? I am fairly sure the size of the program would be less than 300 LOC, tops.

That is indeed a "little app". The 30-something line regex parser Pike wrote ([http://www.cs.princeton.edu/courses/archive/spr09/cos333/bea...](http://www.cs.princeton.edu/courses/archive/spr09/cos333/beautiful.html)) ? Also a "little app".

There is no shame in solving a small problem, solving it well, and solving it concisely.

As far as being a "rehashing of other ideas"\--how many hackathons have you been to on college campuses, and/or how many students doing mobile dev stuff have you chatted with, and/or how many people with a great idea for a local messaging app have you met?

This is not, will not, and never has been a novel idea. That doesn't make it worthless, that doesn't make it pointless, but it also doesn't make it _new_.

As for the "toy campus app": that's what this is...a toy application (small, concise, single-function) targeting primarily college kids (see the comparisons in this very thread to JuicyCampus).

I honestly don't understand why you're getting so defensive just because I'm not getting down on my hands and knees to praise the obvious genius and ingenuity and novelty that went into this (this is sarcasm, by the way).

I can respect it as a work on its own merits, but I will not afford it more than that.

<comment><USER17> A recap of your pleasant original comment:

        "Don't get me wrong, it's a nifty little app.
         You probably learned a lot! That said, it's still
         just a toy campus app."

A morsel of value from the world squandered.

I'll bite your offer for you to mock it up in Ruby real quick. The problem with the "it's easy and I could do it" dismissal is that, even though you could, you didn't.

Maybe you can team up with this guy[1]. You can probably even reuse his repo[2].

[1]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=678501](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=678501) [2]: [http://code.google.com/p/hackerexchange/](http://code.google.com/p/hackerexchange/)

<comment><USER14> [https://gist.github.com/crertel/7244841](https://gist.github.com/crertel/7244841)

There you go--left out the boring HTML scaffolding (original chat example modified from here: [https://github.com/igrigorik/em- websocket](https://github.com/igrigorik/em-websocket)).

EDIT: It's super MVP, but the concept is there.

A very, very simple addition would have the server echo back to the clients the lat/long pairs in question to dynamically update, say, a Google Maps window.

For real usage, I'd use a PostGIS query--something like this: [http://unserializableone.blogspot.com/2007/02/using- postgis-...](http://unserializableone.blogspot.com/2007/02/using-postgis-to- find-points-of.html) .

EDIT2:

Looks like we're both Texans--if you're ever in Houston, I'd be glad to grab a beer with you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The market problem is a very real reality. Popcorn is pretty simple, you need to invite you friends - but do you have to do that for every area to unlock that area?

We've been working on the same problem for a few months now but haven't quick cracked the market issue. Our app, racut, has a similar feature called Shout where you can say something and it appears over a 6 mile radius.

In addition to Shout you can also start a private conversation, or have a group conversation outside of the Shout stream.

It's good to see others entering the space.

<comment><USER19> From my own research of the space while working on near.im, it seems like the companies that have done the best are the ones who make agreements with events (i.e. a networking app for people at a conference.) This is great because it has a clear source of monetization and has the added bonus of having the conference advertise that the app exists so that people might actually use it.

<comment><USER18> Seems logical to partner with a physical event or space, because it helps to provide some of that social proof that people often crave to use something.

I think of it like a restaurant. You're probably going to eat at the restaurant that is busy, not the one that is empty.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I also did a little adventure into local-anon-messaging, but my solution was to use wireless access points and udp for text, relying on a server only for image share. In retrospect it is primitive and ugly as sin, but I was excited about it so I put it on the app store:

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.constantiz...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.constantize.blip&hl=en)

The only problem? wireless routers that block udp ;)

</comment><comment><USER21> JuicyCampus for the mobile age. And this time administrators banning it from campus wi-fi won't do any good, with everyone on 3G and LTE.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JuicyCampus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JuicyCampus)

</comment><comment><USER22> That´s very exciting.

Introducing restrictions like Twitter with 140 characters is very powerful.

How to get users apart from PR? Spend $500 of Facebook ads per city, that gives you around 300 users. Done. Prove for one city raise Angel Money and do it for other cities.

You have something really powerful in your hands, however it might take a while until you really find what it is exactly. Take your time to find it. In terms of what features to add, as you read in many blog posts that the most important thing about finding new features is to learn how to say no. Your app needs to do one thing really well and only that one thing.

My gut tells me that there needs to be an upvote mechanism or an ability to communicate with individual users. However, then it would be whisper already. But something in that direction.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER19> [http://near.im/](http://near.im/) is a mobile web implementation (in Meteor) of the same concept that I work on occasionally, although the frontend needs to be redone. No longer requires a Facebook login.

</comment><comment><USER23> Really like this idea. There's been a deficit of anonymous messaging services in the college market since JuicyCampus went down.

</comment><comment><USER24> I remember making an app similar to this a few years ago. Would automatically create a room if one did not exist, scale-able search range, anonymous users with an option of providing a name, all relied on a jaber server hosted in a micro aws instance. Was a fun project, but the critical mass factor makes things like this very hard to create.

If anyone's curious, github source:

[https://github.com/quackware/Crowdsource](https://github.com/quackware/Crowdsource)

</comment><comment><USER25> In the early 2000s there was a device/toy called the Cybiko ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybiko](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybiko)) which offered similar functionality. It was amazing in theory, however, adoption was never very high so it never took off.

<comment><USER14> There were also something known as Citizen-Band radios, but that was a long time before all this computer nonsense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> My location isn't unlocked yet, but this has the ingredients for brilliance. Marries the desire for privacy with the desire to feel connected to a local community... without being Whisper.

A great example of digital technology facilitating in person communication.

Look forward to playing around with it.

<comment><AUTHOR> hey thanks a lot! thats pretty much the same way i look at

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> The chicken and egg problem can be pretty frustrating with an app like this. There needs to be a critical mass of users in a certain area for it to be reliable, which is easier in some places than others. Best of luck though.

<comment><USER16> One option for a location-aware system like this: the chatroom-defining radius could be adjusted elastically to make it so there are always enough people to chat with, even if the nearest is many miles away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> How will I know my area is unlocked unless I'm constantly checking the app?

Also, does it take -just two- people to unlock? I'm guessing so because there is no way anyone within a one mile radius also has this app.

<comment><AUTHOR> yep, just two! i just pushed an update that includes push notifications. you might need to log out and back in, but it should show the prompt. from there im coding in a notification for when the area opens

<comment><USER28> Just logged out and logged back in, but no alert view for receiving notifications. Do I need to create a new account?

<comment><AUTHOR> dang, friend reported the same issue. not sure why they're not going.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This app clearly reminds me of the device John McAfee promised us: [http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/30/4786008/john-mcafee-d- cent...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/30/4786008/john-mcafee-d-central- device-avoid-nsa-private-network)

"the device [...] has a range of around three blocks. Everyone in those three blocks can then communicate with each other and that will obviously change as users move in and out of a local area."

Will definitively try to maybe see people from HN in Paris.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm kinda sad I didn't capitalize on this idea when I had it awhile back. I may still. I really like radius-based anonymous messaging.

Good to see the idea getting some attention anyway!

<comment><AUTHOR> dave? pretty sure i met you a few times in SF at the TRUE car meetups. thanks for the comment!

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Great idea, nobody in my area yet so I cannot check the execution. (Barcelona, Europe)

Please, don't let this become something bad as happened with ChatRoulette when it became viral.

<comment><USER32> The grindr app is very popular in Barcelona and will let you chat with people nearby in seconds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Why does it require iOS 7.0?

<comment><USER34> Because it's a new app, and actively doing work to support anything older than iOS 7 is a waste of time.

<comment><USER33> Unless the app uses some iOS 7.0 specific API, it makes sense to support at least 6.xx considering 7.xx is just over a month old.

<comment><USER35> The UI changes in iOS 7 make supporting both 6 and 7 more of a pain than most previous iOS releases. Certainly possible and not a huge deal, but it doesn't just come down to iOS 7 specific APIs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> This reminds me a lot of a webapp I built called Whisper:

[http://zyu.me:5000/](http://zyu.me:5000/) [https://github.com/tlhunter/whisper](https://github.com/tlhunter/whisper)

You aren't limited to just one mile though, you can change the loudness, which affects the duration, and it's anonymous.

</comment><comment><USER37> I really hope this takes off - it would be great to use at events!

Yobongo was trying to get this going a while back. For some reason they focused on specific cities (Austin, NYC, and SF) instead of using a generic 1-mile approach like this. I was always disappointed that they got aquirehired - their app died on the vine.

<comment><USER38> Agree. It could be very useful at events and a good addition to Twitter's nearby feature, because of the intention to actually meet people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Creates a chat room with all the people around in it or it just randomly connects you to a single person?

<comment><USER40> Assuming it's a one mile radius for everyone, making it a chat room the app would either need to intersect or union everyone's area... This would make the novelty of the app unusable or pointless, respectively.

<comment><USER41> Yeah, I wonder how that works actually. If radius A intersects with B and C but B and C don't intersect with each other, do B and C see A chatting to someone who they don't see?

<comment><USER42> That's how mobile radios have always worked... CB, FRS, GMRS, etc. Definitely not a new problem. Repeaters can mitigate the problem somewhat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> There is an app like this (I think - as I can't download this one) called WeChat which has a similar functionality. Not sure about the popularity in the US but in Asia it is huge and the "people nearby" feature is very fun.

</comment><comment><USER44> I just got the username "James". This never happens.

If you can solve the "AB—BC" problem, then you'll have a really powerful application that'll easily get some investments, you just need to market it right.

<comment><USER45> what's the AB-BC problem?

<comment><USER44> As described here, [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6642919](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6642919)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Is this available on Android?

<comment><USER47> Yes, there are 100x android devices in places like India compared to iOS devices.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Screenshot has a typo "...with people _within in_ a 1-mile..."

<comment><AUTHOR> ahh, crap, thanks for pointing that out

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Revenue possibilities for this app:

1) Give it to participants at conferences. You could partner with conference promoters and advertisers

2) Partner with baseball and football stadiums and "teams"

3) Partner with bands and gigs

</comment><comment><USER44> Some things I've noticed:

\- Push notifications are much needed.

\- I logged out, but now I can't log back in.

\- I'm unable to send more than one message at a time, but it's complaining that I need to wait 2 seconds.

</comment><comment><USER50> This looks really nice! I was very impressed at the download speed, so good job on that one.

All I'm really missing is something telling me if anyone is nearby. That's probably not easy.

</comment><comment><USER51> Were you guys at the YC startup school? I remember talking with someone about a similar product, although the target market was slightly different...

</comment><comment><USER34> The app is pretty bare bones, but it has promise.

Localization request: for anywhere but en_US, replace "1 mile" with "1.6 km" =)

<comment><USER52> I use en_UK, dollars, miles and Fahrenheit (and Rankine) degrees.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> There is also [http://geospot.meteor.com](http://geospot.meteor.com) with auto purge.

</comment><comment><USER54> Well, we had this on the roadmap for www.wobbleapp.me. Will be interesting to see the reception in advance.

</comment><comment><USER55> Well, I would have tried it, but upon installation, it says: requires iOS7.

Sorry, not going to happen :)

</comment><comment><USER56> Great idea! Be careful about nefarious use (aka sex offenders) if that's possible.

</comment><comment><USER57> I tried to search in App Store on my iPad, it showed me no result ?

</comment><comment><USER58> waiting for my location to be unlocked, i.e. midtown Manhattan

<comment><USER58> so, a few thoughts now that we have a room created for midtown NYC:

1\. no push notifications? seems like a no brainer to have this when a new user enters the "room" (i'm calling these chat spaces that) and when a new message appears. suspect you'll get more re-engagement

2\. why do I have a ribbon next to my username? see: [https://twitter.com/daveambrose/status/395630523961577473](https://twitter.com/daveambrose/status/395630523961577473)

3\. photos! would be good to share media in addition to just text. maybe for a v2

<comment><USER59> On top of that, @replies would be awesome as well. We already have a nice Back Bay/Cambridge/Boston chatroom going that is going along fine, but we have already naturally used @replies since we are so used to them.

<comment><AUTHOR> yea definitely sounds necessary. im just wondering - lets say you leave the 1 mile area, somebody @ replies you, when you open the app you'll be in a totally new spot and the message will be at the old spot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I wonder what the architecture for the messaging looks like.

</comment><comment><USER61> it would be great to see closest online person to chat if there is no one in 1-mile. (Of course chat will be inactivated with that person)

</comment><comment><USER62> black status bar text on dark red background, this needs to change. But a very neat idea! Already found some people to chat with in Tokyo

</comment><comment><USER63> CB Radio</comment>


FedEx Overcharged Customers for Years, Sealed E-Mail Says - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-11/fedex-overcharged-customers-for-years-sealed-e-mail-says.html <comment><USER2> There are businesses whose sole offering is a service to audit your shipping invoices to ensure that you are not being overcharged. One, started in Memphis in the late 90s to specifically audit FedEx deliveries, is now a division of IronData:

<http://transportation.irondata.com>

<comment><USER3> I guess it'd be remiss of me to not link to Refund Retriever, the company I've developed software for:

<http://www.refund-retriever.com>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This would be an issue if they were the only game in town, last time I checked they have some pretty stiff competition in package delivery, UPS being the one that comes to mind.

Look at it this way, if they are overcharging for delivery but are still getting business then they are charging appropriately for their market.

<comment><USER5> Well, assuming there's no price collusion, which there's a good chance of the implicit type. "Charging appropriately" isn't the best measure pro-socially, AIDS medication was still selling well in the West as millions died.

FedEx could be prohibiting whole business models that are waiting to be profitable with cheaper shipping.

Yes, I know it's speculation, but what we often forget here is that capitalism is a deal of state-based enforcement of your property rights so that you create value for society. If your company, like Comcast, is systematically overcharging / under-delivering, you're not holding up your end of the deal - so the state might just step in to ::realign your interests::

<comment><USER6> > we often forget here is that capitalism is a deal of state-based enforcement > of your property rights so that you create value for society.

Are you saying that the protection of one's property rights is contingent upon the delivery of some arbitrary metric of "value" to "society"? That doesn't sound quite right.

<comment><USER7> > Are you saying that the protection of one's property rights is contingent > upon the delivery of some arbitrary metric of "value" to "society"? That > doesn't sound quite right.

Are you saying that property rights are not contingent on a metric of value to society? If it weren't better for society as a whole to provide protections for property rights, do you think they'd exist?

<comment><USER8> >capitalism is a deal of state-based enforcement of your property rights so that you create value for society

No it isn't. Capitalism is a "system" of capital investment (usually with the expected gains of personal profitability), contingent upon the property rights of the ownership of capital and transferable (partial) ownership of an enterprise that consumes that capital.

Capitalism is contingent on property rights being recognized and defended against arbitrary taking, but property rights are not contingent upon the owner of property contributing to society in some arbitrarily (im?)measurable way.

This is not to state that the protection of property rights is not a net social boon, just that property rights do not evaporate (in whole or in part) in specific instances once someone calculates the "social value" for an owned enterprise has dropped below some immeasurable threshold.

Governments operating under a system of justice attempt to regulate the systems and boundaries of social exchange (to minimize and resolve apparent conflicts), but do not _require_ any party to engage in such exchange to the benefit of anyone, or the mutual benefit of society.

<comment><USER5> You start describing parts of how the deal works, but not the de jure or de facto reality of its intention and operation in the real world.

>property rights do not evaporate...

It's called the Sherman Act in the US, and it's why Microsoft was told what to do with their property - similar to MSFTs forced debundling in Europe. It's the state saying "You're outside of the deal, make these changes (to your property) to increase competition, which we know will costing you lots of money (i.e. property)".

There are many other laws that regulate anti-competitive behavior, eminent domain, patent violation in times of war, etc. that are all pro-social but sacrifice property rights.

<comment><USER8> I also mention that this is how a government built on a system of justice works, I do not claim to place that moniker "de facto" on any particular government (in whole or in part).

Rights don't come from the state, they are a consequence of individuals needing to be able to act upon long range plans while interacting with others, and to be assured that values they have acquired will still be at their disposal in the future. One only needs rights to things one plans to use when other potential users may contend for it. Relying on a social order that defends rights is in one's best long-range interests.

Laws that define and penalize "anti-competitive" behavior are orthogonal to capitalism, in that capitalism isn't about competition, it is about investment and return. From a legal standpoint (principles of justice notwithstanding), the remedy for anti-trust behavior is rationalized not as a complete termination of property rights (destruction or redistribution), but commands to take or cease action (interference) to compensate "injured parties", or forced reorganization to hinder the offending activity from recurring. Nominally the property still exists with its owner(s), although it has become encumbered or splintered into multiple properties.

The ability for a government to own and acquire real estate puts it at odds with (perhaps) its chief purpose, defense of the property of the citizens, especially when it gives itself the coercive power to grab when all else fails.

Suspension of rights in times of war is why we are warned about the rise of the total state under conditions of total war. The "war on terror" is the current excuse for the non-defense of many rights, not just property.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Can anyone explain this? If you tell me a candy bar costs $2 (e.g., that's the posted price), and then at the register, you actually charge me $10 and I don't say anything, can I sue you later? I realize that's a ridiculously simplified example, but it seems in principal/by analogy the same.

<comment><USER10> That's far too simplistic. FedEx, UPS, and other couriers charge more for residential deliveries. This is fine, because it is more difficult to deliver to a residence.

However, frequently, these couriers charge a base rate and then tack on a residential "surcharge" at a later time. Most shipments aren't paid for at the counter. You get a weekly bill. If you ship more than a few packages a week, it's very difficult to tell which surcharge is attached to which shipment. All they give you is a tracking number and unless you spend all day memorizing their tracking numbers, you won't know which end is up.

Also, are you going to spend 15 minutes on the phone every time you get dinged for two bucks unfairly? No thanks.

At this point, it's not so much ripping off ... everybody knows it's happening. Just a hidden cost of shipping.

<comment><USER11> To go with the candy bar analogy, it's as if you paid $2 with your credit card, then were charged another $10 a week later. Close?

<comment><USER12> No, you go to the candy shop say thirteen times a week, buy some candy (do not remember the exact number although you have the statements but they do not specify numbers but weight) and after a week you receive a true invoice with just the transaction IDs and a grand total.

 _If_ you check this and you notice a $0.50 surcharge... Are you going to spend 10min to fix it, if it is fixed ("please call later when our accountant is in")?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This doesn't seem that damning to me. It probably costs FedEx the same regardless of whether or not the address is business or residential these days, and it's not like there's some law that requires FedEx to charge a certain rate. The lawsuit could easily be worded "FedEx systematically undercharging residential customers for years, sealed e-mail says."

The tone of the article indicates that I'm supposed to be angry about this, but I'm just not feeling it today. Sorry.

<comment><USER14> Same. I read it and though, if they didn't like the price they should have used UPS or USPS.

<comment><USER15> I want you for a customer. I'll sign a contract to bill you for $100 an hour. Then when I send you the bill I'll make sure it's for $125, because hey if you don't like the price, you should have used someone else.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> _"The e-mails were unsealed yesterday in a class-action, or group, lawsuit claiming FedEx Corp. and FedEx Corporate Services Inc. overcharged commercial and government customers as much as $3 each for millions of packages delivered."_

Come on Bloomberg, don't talk to me like I'm five.

</comment><comment><USER17> Having run an import / distribution operation for over 10 years, I can say a high degree of confidence that this practice is widespread across the industry.

The "mistakes" are frequent, and they error on the financial side of the freight company approximately 95% of the time.

</comment><comment><USER18> When will the lawsuits begin?

</comment><comment><USER19> _"My belief is that we are choosing not to fix this issue because it is worth so much money to FedEx,"_

They will pay some money to make the lawyers rich, no one goes to jail and FedEx will repeat it again after a few years. Rinse, repeat. Cost of doing business.

<comment><USER9> Or maybe, having been called out, they'll pay whatever it costs, and then fix it once, and it won't happen again? Sorry, but I'm not impressed by mindless cynicism.

<comment><USER19> Anyway, they were called out before being sued but did nothing about it.

I am cynic because many big corps still have this attitude. See <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18866018> and [http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-hsbc- confirms...](http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-hsbc- confirms-192-billion-settlement-in-moneylaundering- probe-20121211,0,487098.story)</comment></comment></comment>