Bootup Labs' Danny Robinson: "I made mistakes. I was wrong. Lessons Learned." - <AUTHOR> http://blog.bootuplabs.com/2010/04/21/i-made-mistakes-i-was-wrong-lessons-learned/

<comment><USER2> Bootup Lab's reputation has still been badly damaged.

An entrepreneur's commitment and sacrifice to their business is very serious and they took a very nonchalant approach to handling this situation until the PR blew up.

Of course Danny is sorry now. I'm sure Bootup will continue to do fine with finding new startups since entrepreneurs in need of cash are always in high supply.

But competent entrepreneurs look for competent investors and the real test now is if Bootup labs is capable of getting/being either of those.

<comment><USER3> Obviously there were screw-ups. But it's possible a major factor was someone else fell through on their investment commitment to Bootup Labs. They hinted at that, though quite rightly Bootup hasn't specifically named who fell through on them. They've taken the hit themselves. Depending on what the inside story is, some might respect them for that.

When trying to make something new happen, you almost have to express preemptive confidence, and gloss over some of the caveats applying to outlier possibilities. You say, "We have the investors all lined up", not "We have the investors all lined up, as long as the people I believe are solidly reliable remain reliable". 99 times out of 100, avoiding such pedantic qualifications helps the joint effort. Sometimes it blows up. Here it blew up, and then slow communication made it worse, but such mistakes happen among the ever-hopeful.

<comment><USER4> And the first thing they said was : "you must be grateful for all we did to you". Screw them

<comment><USER3> Jamie Martin: "I just wanted to add that I have no hard feelings for Bootup Labs, for Danny, Boris, or anybody we met, I don't think it's anything intentional they did. But there are lessons to be learned from what happened from our situation."

Funny and sad that the commenter lynch mob has a lot more righteous anger -- _"Screw them"_ \-- than the people actually involved.

<comment><USER5> I think he's highly professional in his stance, if I were him and I were angry I wouldn't let it show publicly either.

The rest of us don't have anything to lose here, having an investor bail out that far in to a deal is as good as being shot down, there is no way they could have survived it. Also, your sample size is just one individual out of all the founders that got axed, so not 'people', but person.

How the rest of them feel is any body's guess.

We, collectively can put a fair amount of pressure on boot-out labs, more than Jamie could at this point in time, he hasn't got the money to sue them (I'm fairly sure he'd have a case), but even if he had the money to sue them it won't look good on your future resume if you go and sue a former investor.

The right way to handle this would have been to reverse the deal and to compensate all those wronged by it, there are plenty of ways that could have been done.

<comment><USER3> We know how at least one of the other booted founders feels, and he suggests he understood there was always a risk the money wouldn't come through:

[http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/15/the-curious-case-of- vancouv...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/15/the-curious-case-of-vancouver- incubator-bootup-labs/#comment-1029706)

The 'deal' _was_ reversed in that no equity was requested even though _some_ material assistance was provided. If hypothetically a startup was willing and able to continue in Vancouver even without the foreseen investment, the whole episode could have still been net-positive. If the startup was derailed by the detour to Vancouver (as appears to be the Status.ly situation), the whole episode appears net-negative.

If there's not enough cash to make the full investment, and already ~$10K or more has been spent on the companies released from the program, what's the additional 'compensation' amount that would be fair? Airfare back home? Some hypothetical opportunity cost that was forgone based on their hopes in Vancouver?

Jamie might have a legal case but if there's one email where BL reports, and Jamie acknowledges, that the funding is still pending and conditional on other uncertain factors, that case could be shot.

<comment><USER5> I think the blog posting (the mea culpa) was carefully crafted to avoid taking a stance that could cost them money, but I think it is crystal clear that if the situation had been outlined beforehand (that the money was not on hand) that they would have never made the move.

That's called pre-contractual information, which is supposed to be given freely so the other party realizes the risk. They did nothing to warn them the money was not available at all, and might never become available.

In a court case that would probably have 'legs', even if getting to a judgment would probably cost more than it's worth, and they seem to bank on that not happening. But there are more ways to skin a cat and the internet is a great place to put such things to right.

The way out is to compensate them for the expenses they made that they would not have made if they would have been properly informed beforehand, so that includes the funds to re-locate back to where ever they came from and a sum of several thousand dollars to get started again.

Figure another 5 to 10 grand per founder and you should call it quits and consider the matter settled as good as possible given the circumstances.

If they don't have the cash they could do an iou redeemable a year from now, or when they take on their next round of funding.

You break it, you own it, and a real 'sorry' includes compensation.

We agree about the one email, if that exists it's a different story, but then I think that mea culpa would never have been written, clearly there is a party at fault here, by their own admission.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is just damage control, nothing else.

Bootuplabs have egg all over their faces and pretty much deserve to be ignored by any serious startup.

An apology doesn't go far enough, if half of what I read about this is true they should send those guys some money to cover the costs they made to move to Vancouver. The thing they're probably really sorry about is that it got as much play as it did, I don't think they expected a not-so-spectacular startup to get that kind of PR on being axed, more so than they probably would have gotten during a launch.

</comment><comment><USER6> Danny, Words whisper, Actions scream. In order to combat this situation, offer the cut teams tangible help. And, don't let it be something like:" If I could help in anyway!" Jesus Christ man, you already know how you could help; these guys need money. Use your connects to link them with some angel investors/ VC.

After, this am sure everyone would forgive and applaud you. And the publicity and the goodwill gained goes a long way. It is just too easy to say am sorry.

<comment><USER7> You're right! I will continue to work with everyone involved. Another accelerator was interested in possibly taking Status.ly in for their summer program, and I let Jamie know.

<comment><USER6> Your equivocal words aren't going to help-"Possibly". And, they don't need the money couple months from now; they need it now.

<comment><USER8> I think at this point Danny has learned his lesson about not promising more than he can deliver. If he was contacted by another accelerator which said that they _might_ be interested in taking Status.ly, he's exactly right to say "possibly".

<comment><USER6> My point was to get something more solid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> As Danny says, Bootup Labs has a long road ahead of them to regain the community's trust. I'm willing to give them that chance.

At this point, I certainly couldn't recommend that a startup from outside of Vancouver move here to work with Bootup Labs, but for a startup in Vancouver -- treading carefully and making sure that money is in the bank and that legal agreements don't say anything evil -- I think Bootup Labs might still be an option.

And if Bootup Labs has a few years of success stories, well, that might just redeem them.

<comment><USER5> Being associated with Bootup labs as a venture they've invested in may actually be a negative for a while.

A second round investor may think twice before entering into a partnership where bootup labs is already present.

<comment><USER8> As long as Bootup Labs is a silent investor (and AFAIK they don't take board seats), why would future investors care?

<comment><USER5> The investment world is pretty small, especially in Canada.

Getting an investment from a company that is second rate immediately qualifies a startup as second rate, as though you've tried the more serious outfits and finally had to resort to 'plan b'.

Just like having kpcb (I know they're not Canadian, and not exactly angel investors, just to illustrate the point) on board is an automatic stamp of approval, the reverse also holds true. If I were on board of one of their other investments I'd definitely be concerned about the effect for follow up rounds. It's not just your company that matters, but also the company you keep.

<comment><USER8> _Getting an investment from a company that is second rate immediately qualifies a startup as second rate [...]_

Interesting -- so really it's just a signaling exercise. That makes sense, given how poor investors are at directly measuring quality.

Thanks for the explanation! One of the things I appreciate most about HN is the willingness of experienced people to provide this sort of insight to us newbies. :-)

<comment><USER5> I detect a note of cynicism there.

Some investors are _much_ better than others at judging the quality of the companies they are looking at, but plenty of them are looking at being the 'second' firm to invest after a 'name' is on board, since that dramatically increases the chances of success of that company. Of course every VC dreams of discovering that unknown nugget, but sadly there are plenty that are not able to separate the wheat from the chaff on their own power, so they look to others as a source of guidance. That's also why you'll see a slew of 'copycat' companies getting investment if a company in a certain league grows big. For instance, when Youtube exploded on to the scene there was a flurry of similar offerings backed by a very wide range of VCs, all of them trying to get a slice of the pie after the concept was proven. Some of those would have turned down youtube if it had been offered to them only a few months earlier.

Take Y combinator as an example. If a startup with a crappy product is invested in by Y combinator versus some unknown angel investing in a fantastic product then when shopping for a second round simply having Y combinator on board will open lots of doors and will probably lead to a quick second round at a fair valuation even if the product was bad and a quick and violent ending for the start up that was funded by an unknown. Having a great product and a great team is unfortunately not enough to always secure funding, having a partner with name recognition on board significantly increases your chances. Even if in that scenario Y combinator would not be 'working the network' on your behalf.

Having your wealthy great uncle as an investor will not do much in this respect.

This is sad but really true. Ideally every company should be investigated and judged on its merits, but the number of deals presented to some groups leads to weird shortcuts like this. And it would be even sadder if that meant they miss out on great opportunities, the fact is though that it even works. It is a self fulfilling prophesy, some 'name' is already in, company gets round 2, maybe scores big in the longer term vs company does not get round 2 and dies.

Looking back the VC that didn't go with the company that died will feel they made the right decision.

<comment><USER8> _you'll see a slew of 'copycat' companies getting investment if a company in a certain league grows big_

This is why I'm a cynic -- you don't even need a company to get big, you just need the field to be "hot". Back in 2000 I was cold-called by two VCs wanting to invest in my work on distributed computing (I had recently announced the computation of the quadrillionth bit of Pi).

They were interested for no reason beyond the fact that everybody else was interested in the field. I told them that there was no workable business model and that I wouldn't take their money under such conditions -- so they went and gave their money to someone who was willing to ignore reality in order to justify taking the money.

About $100M went into that field in 2000, and none of it came back out. Such a horrible waste.

<comment><USER5> It happens _all_ the time.

Ideally venture capital (and especially angels) is a force that helps creative people realize their dreams in return for a realistic premium associated with the risks.

They should help with guidance and their expertise to maximize the chances of those dreams becoming a reality, and should use their portfolio to balance the risks between existing money making (and thus now lower risk) ventures and newer high risk early stage ventures.

In practice venture capital all too often distorts the market, creates unrealistic expectations (both for founders, the public and partners alike) and is 'penny wise and pound foolish' when it comes to evaluating new ideas.

Our host is - unfortunately - in this respect, imo not that much different than the rest, even if they do get the mentoring and assistance factor (far) better than most, there is not a single investment in the current batch that I would call worthy of the 'V' in VC, they're pretty safe bets, if they fail they'll fail quickly and if they're going to take off they won't fly too far. The scope of most of those projects is simply far too limited.

It's all about the batting averages, and that's essentially what these small funds are all trying to do, to show a good track record of managing their portfolio in the hopes of landing one that hits it out of the park, more likely than not due to a pivot.

By increasing the dealflow they're playing 'scratch lottery' instead of a strategy game in the casino, statistically speaking if you keep at this long enough sooner or later you recoup your losses with a healthy profit margin and you can continue to play until you score big.

The one nightmare I have is being unfunded, healthy and growing and suddenly getting a copycat me-too project with VC backing and a bunch of inexperienced cowboys in the same space.

That can really ruin your day, and possibly much more than that.

Back in 1997 or so, the real beginning of the .com bubble there was this great cartoon in a newspaper here, it pictured a train with tons of guys in suits, pockets bulging with money trying to get on board. The train was clearly labeled 'Internet', and a reporter was asking one of the guys the question where they were going. The answer: "No idea, but we really don't want to miss this train".

<comment><USER8> _The one nightmare I have is being unfunded, healthy and growing and suddenly getting a copycat me-too project with VC backing and a bunch of inexperienced cowboys in the same space._

I had that nightmare too, until I realized something: Online backup is hard to do right. If you don't know what you're doing, you fail spectacularly.

I don't worry about the inexperienced cowboys any more. They'll fail sooner or later.

<comment><USER5> And that's indeed exactly what happened at some point in my past, only not with online backup.

The investors in the competitor were actually very gracious about it and did a lot to make up for the damage they caused me, which they really were not obliged to do. Interesting how that played out, we still exchange Christmas cards 12 years later.

Focus on the hard stuff, let the cowboys fail and just keep plodding away and you'll be successful somehow. But they can destroy your market for you by giving the whole field a bad name and they can mess up the timing to the point that you miss out on something substantially bigger.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't think proceeding without "money in the bank" is THAT unusual for startups. There is a certain minimum buffer, but once an investor signs up, and paperwork/etc. is executed, most people would go ahead with signing leases for buildings, hiring, etc. with even only a few months more of cash on hand.

Maybe you don't want your incubator/investor to behave like a startup, though.

</comment><comment><USER10> I think it's pretty easy to take shots from the sidelines. It's fairly obvious that the vast majority of you guys know very little about the start-up environment in Vancouver. We need guys like Danny and Bootup to take some risks in order to develop our ecosystem.

In this case, an error resulted. They didn't want that to happen, but it happened. Crucifying these guys after the fact helps no one.

If there's value in Status.ly, either someone else will step in and fund it or someone will buy it.

Entrepreneurial risk takes many forms.

As for the "slick PR messaging", you guys obviously don't know Danny.

<comment><USER11> Bootup needs to act like a grown up.

1\. Don't intake companies until financing is in the bank. 2\. Have agreements for all intake companies before they start. A term sheet is not binding, and frankly, should only be used to reflect the business points in the agreement. Don't rely on it. 3\. Recognize that they are dealing with unsophisticated entrepreneurs. Don't try to bullshit them with big words like "capital call." Help them help themselves. 4\. Get more people on the board that understand investing. The principals are nice guys, but they are not bankable in the investing world. They need two more people like Boris Wertz on the board, not hide behind some bullshit advisory board. 5\. The principals should take finance lessons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Anyone got a good round up of what happened? The post provided links to parts of the previous conversation but I'd rather read a good article summing everything up.

<comment><USER13> Here's the summary as I understand it.

Bootup Labs accepted 7 startups into its program this January. The proprietors of these startups agreed and finalized the paperwork and moved up to Vancouver to participate. They were told shortly after arrival that there may be some hiccups with the funding but not to worry and they'd get it all straightened out.

In the meantime, Bootup Labs paid the living expenses for at least some of the startups but the capital never materialized. In March, Bootup Labs had secured new investors, but the investment wasn't enough to keep all seven startups alive. They cut four of the seven loose just like that, with no money to help make their way back to their places of origin, no capital invested, and nothing more than a "Thanks for trying, sorry about this."

Status.ly proprietor Jamie Something wrote a post about it and the thing kind of blew up.

Again, that's the story as I understand it. All corrections are welcome.

<comment><USER14> _nothing more than a "Thanks for trying, sorry about this."_

Actually, they got a request that they be grateful that they received some minor expenses, and some whinging that BUL paid _some_ money but didn't receive a finished product.

"Sorry about this" would've been nigh infinitely better, as it would've shown some understanding of the value proposition as viewed by the entrepreneur.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Looks like statusly is for sale. <http://statuslyforsale.tumblr.com/>

The post that talks about this: [http://livejamie.com/post/522093261/booted- out-of-bootup-lab...](http://livejamie.com/post/522093261/booted-out-of- bootup-labs)

</comment><comment><USER16> This kind of thing really makes me sick. At the very least we should see an offer of monetary help for the startups that were dropped. Ie he should help out the people he financially hurt even though they dont matter to him anymore. That action would win him points and get him on the way to regaining his credibility.

</comment><comment><USER17> He failed but he didn't fail fast. :) but the important thing is he learned a lesson and wrote about it.

<comment><USER18> Ehm, what!? The important thing isn't that he "learned a lesson". His actions had real consequences, and an apology (sincere as it may be) does not absolve him. Not in the least.

It's doubtful he's really changed, because he apparently needed advise from many people to figure out that his actions were far from honorable. For all we know he's simply in damage-control mode. Especially to sum it up as "Made a mistake. Lesson learned." (post title) strikes me as especially glib. An apology is now in his best interest, so of course he's going to apologize. It's not as if he has a choice.

That said, I do believe he feels bad about the situation, and I think the apology is sincere. But I also think that his original actions were scummy, and that his instinctive reaction (cover up / hope it blows over / attacking victim on internet) shows his character. And people don't really change overnight, so he's still that kind of guy.

So the important lesson, if there is one, is to stay away from bootuplabs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Too little, too late.

<comment><USER20> Its never too late to stand up and admit your mistakes.

<comment><USER19> True, though the impact is somewhat tempered when only done to save your own skin.

<comment><USER21> Too True, and the apology was professionally written/reviewed by a PR expert with crisis management experience. Anyone wanting to start a business here is so naive they can't discern fact from fiction. Given the young age and limited experience of most of the entrepreneurs this is like fishing in a barrel. Be smart, act on facts, not fiction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Whoa, I would not like to be this guy right now.

</comment><comment><USER23> Though it does not help Jamie now, it indeed _sounds_ a honest apology (especially #3). Glad to see that Jason.

</comment><comment><USER24> "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence" - Napoleon Bonaparte.

</comment><comment><USER25> Would this scenario have broken laws in the US?

</comment><comment><USER21> Why is this guy any more trustworthy today after issuing an artfully written apology, that was clealry crafted by a PR professional skilled in crisis management communications?

Don't forget, "actions speak louder than words." Startups do yourself a big favour and steer clear of this underfunded, unprofessional slow motion train wreck.

<comment><USER26> I love it when the shady and duplicitous finally realize they can no longer hide the facts and then apologize as a last resort.

<comment><USER27> I think this is a tricky situation. Lets say for the sake of argument that they honestly handled the situation _unbelievably_ wrong as opposed to being deliberately shady. They realized, right before the blog post, they needed to communicate better with everyone.

How differently should they have handled it other than what they wrote in the blog post?

I should acknowledge that my knowledge about the situation is only as deep as this blog post and the post they replied to. No knowledge about their past reputation.

<comment><USER5> For starters they could offer to compensate those wrongfully booted out because of _their_ failure for costs incurred.

That would go a long way to showing they really care about them, instead of just about their own reputation.

I see this as a salvaging operation, probably at the instigation of the new investor they've found, a way to use the fact that they are in the spotlight to do a cheap 'mea culpa' while getting as much mileage out of it for their own shop. There is no such thing as 'bad publicity', especially not if you can spin it to your advantage by showing what an upstanding guy you are by apologizing in public. But words are cheap.

Maybe I'm too cynical here, but really if they did anything over and beyond simply saying stuff I'd be a lot more convinced this is heartfelt.

<comment><USER26> I think sometimes people put on a show that they have resources that they do not have and think playing fast and loose with other people's careers is alright as it is only business.

This is irresponsible. And once discovered, we'd do well to not deal with such people.

I would not be overly strict about that, though. It would be ok, for example, to have them make license plates for you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Human nature makes us want to forgive and forget. Donlt get sucked into this. Keep a lear head and select your incubator and mentors based on facts, not emotions.

Bootup sucked young entrepreneurs into their "cool clubhouse" mystique, when there was no substance or cash. The total funds raised by BUL in 2 years is insufficient for even one decent startup - how are they going to fund 11 or 12 companies in any viable way? Don't get sucked into the hype, stay clear of this bullsh*t.</comment>


NY AG accuses Charter Spectrum of cheating millions of Internet users - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com/article/ny-attorney-general-accuses-charter-spectrum-of-cheating-millions/ <comment><USER2> Previous discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13553520](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13553520)

</comment><comment><USER3> Can confirm. I can pull a max of maybe 10 mbps down most times on my 100/10 plan. To upgrade to a 250/something plan they want a 250+ fee and 100 something per month. I was spoiled back in Seattle with my 1gbps for 80 a month.

Internet infra in NYC is terrible and if you're not anywhere where Fios is offered you're in for a bad time (Comcast, TWC). The only light are the Link stations around the city.

<comment><USER4> > _I was spoiled back in Seattle with my 1gbps for 80 a month._

Before anyone gets excited, this is only available in a limited set of neighborhoods (CenturyLink fiber) or upscale apartments (CondoInternet or whatever their new name is).

<comment><USER3> Yes I was using CondoInternet in one of the newer apartments. I guess it comes as a perk when the entire downtown is ripped up, you get a chance to lay new fiber.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was a bit worried, as I had Brighthouse which was also acquired by Charter last year at the same time as Time Warner Cable. However, this looks like it was actually a Time Warner Cable issue, and Charter just inherited it by virtue of buying them last year.

</comment><comment><USER6> They should have required full upgrade to fiber optics as part of the merger deal, and gigabit plans everywhere. Too late now.</comment>


Ask HN: what is the Lisp dialect that you recommend? - <AUTHOR>

I have just ordered "ANSI common LISP", and I was wondering what should be the best LISP dialect for an amateur? <comment><USER2> SBCL or CLISP should work well for you - what operating system do you use?

(Also, <http://landoflisp.com/> might be a good way to get started with the language if you're still learning it. It's a far more enjoyable read as well.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I am on Ubuntu 10.10.

I am mostly interested to have fun, to see for my self if indeed LISP can change the way somebody thinks about programming languages, and eventually to see if I could use it for light numerical analysis and data visualization for research.

<comment><USER2> They're both available via apt on Ubuntu, which is nice. A few years ago, most people seemed to lean towards SBCL, but I'm not sure if there's much difference between the two these days.</comment></comment></comment>


China Uses 'Digital Leninism' to Manage Economy and Monitor Citizens - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/xi-jinping-leads-china-into-big-data-dictatorship-1508237820?mod=e2fb <comment><USER2> This Wikipedia article is about Lenins NEP.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy)

 _The NEP represented a more market-oriented economic policy, deemed necessary after the Russian Civil War of 1918 to 1922, to foster the economy of the country, which was almost ruined. The complete nationalization of industry, established during the period of War Communism, was partially revoked and a system of mixed economy was introduced, which allowed private individuals to own small enterprises,[3] while the state continued to control banks, foreign trade, and large industries._

</comment><comment> dis-sys What is the point posting a pay-walled article? Please check the link you suggest, pay-walled content is not accessible by the majority of people online, how meaningful information sharing/discussion is possible if the content is not even freely available?

It is worse than the bloody Chinese GFW - a single VPN account allows you to bypass the entire GFW, yet you need to signup/subscribe to millions of different pay-walled sites to even read them.

<comment><USER3> Quality reporting does in fact cost something to produce. The goal of HN is to surface the best news of interest to the tech community. There is a reason why WSJ, NY Times, and Washington Post are simultaneously high quality and paid sources of news.

<comment> dis-sys Sure, just forget about Jay Solomon and Jayson Blair.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Paywalled.</comment>


Why Cruise Ships are My Favorite Remote Work Location - <AUTHOR> http://tynan.com/cruisework <comment><USER3> I too work from a lot of different places, but I find that I absolutely need internet to be productive. Pulling a Gem for instance, or checking Stack Overflow.

My favourite places to work are all-inclusive holiday resorts. Lanzarote and the Algarve most recently. Being all inclusive means there is no thought process in eating or drinking. Nor any need to shop, clean, cook.

The most difficult thing is finding out what the internet situation is in hotels - but this has vastly improved even in the last year. I generally call up reception, and travel with an ethernet cable.

Incidentally for an individual or a couple, Airbnb is generally far more expensive than a reasonable half-board hotel. I've only ever found Airbnb type stuff useful in capital cities.

I've been at my most productive working in:

\- Wetherspoons in Slough

\- An apartment in Cairo

\- A bungalow in Lanzarote

\- The lobby of the Apex hotel in Dundee (current)

Downsides are seeing a laptop screen in the sun (wear a dark shirt) and being surrounded by happy couples while on one's own.

(I'm back to Lanzarote for a week at the start of December if anyone fancies a coffee)

<comment><USER4> I agree completely on the internet access. Very hard to work through issues without online resources nowadays. How did we do it before there was such great online help like StackExchange?

<comment><USER5> " How did we do it before there was such great online help like StackExchange?"

Books. And if you were lucky you would buy 2 or 3 so you could triangulate something that didn't make sense. At least that is what I did.

Also plenty of trying and iteration.

Try this.

Try that.

For hours on end. (Not sure by your question if you had done this or were just asking btw.).

When I bought a Unix system (mid 80's) it came with a bound set of maybe 10 manuals iirc. Getting other books was difficult I had to drive miles to a University bookstore to even find anything on Unix or C. Software wasn't free of course. It cost real dollars and was pretty expensive and came on floppies.

<comment><USER4> I hear you, and that's how I learned. :-) But I find it much tougher on the topics I'm learning today. Perhaps it's because the old stuff is hard wired because it needs to be, but I keep less of the new topics in long term memory because I can outsource that storage to Google?

<comment><USER5> Yeah the memory thing is a problem for sure. I've noticed that and it worries me.

A few years ago I built this php/mysql just to store things that I learned or figured out (correct syntax for rsync might be an example) so I wouldn't have to re google them. [1] But now what I'm seeing is that most things can be found by google quicker than in the format I am using the db for. (But it's still helpful because I can cut paste and edit). I also use a wiki to keep track of what I have found that is helpful. Putting something in the wiki seems to help a little.

My point is in the past there would have been much more memorization reinforcement (see [1] below) than today. My brain is totally getting lazy because it knows the answer is right at my fingertips one way or another. When I used to do the 3x5 cards [1] I typed it up, printed it, reduced it, pasted it and the act of creating and using those "flash" cards made me memorize the answers.

The other problem is the flood of information. To many cool and interesting things to test out and get the hang of. I remember back when I tried C for the first time (don't even think there was c++). Could work with that for a long time since there wasn't really anything else to play with. [2]

[1] Old way of doing this used to be 3x5 cards or those 8.5 x 11 plastic (can't think of the actual word for it) cheat sheets like "Unix Quick Reference". See: [http://www.bookdepository.com/Unix-Inc- Barcharts/97815722239...](http://www.bookdepository.com/Unix-Inc- Barcharts/9781572223974)

[2] I'm not a programmer but I do some programming to help with what I do. And have been doing it for a long time. So perhaps if I was doing this full time and my needs were different (instead of intermittent) this would be less of an issue for me.

<comment><USER6> Stop cutting and pasting and start typing. I try to copy from memory, but even writing it out while looking at the original still seems to help retention.

<comment><USER5> I actually do do that almost always. Habit started with books actually. Exactly true as far as learning and retention.

Noting even that when learning php somethings that I cut and pasted had weird invisible embedded characters that caused things to fail [1]. That was actually a pretty good learning experience trying to take something that appeared correct character by character and figure out why it wasn't working by stripping things down the the basics.

[1] Might have been on w3schools or something like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Cruise ships are also an amazing alternative to nursing homes.

I did some work for p&o cruises, on a ship that focused on round the world trips. These was one old lady there in her 80s who had swapped a nursing home for the ship - and had been there for 3 years or so. The food was incredible, she had diffent company every night due to other guests coming and going, was treated like royalty by the crew (unlike normal nursing home residents), and had an onboard doctor and nurse when needed. And all this was cheaper than any nursing home. Inspired idea.

<comment><USER8> Probably about the same cost, according to snopes - [http://www.snopes.com/travel/trap/retire.asp](http://www.snopes.com/travel/trap/retire.asp)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is an insanely great idea. Cruise ships are incredibly quiet places. the lack of internet/expensive internet is a forcing function. Great way for co founders to spend time together if they're normally in different locations. We might just do this for a big push. Transatlantic cruises are very, very cheap and not crowded; and since it's not incredibly warm outside there's an added incentive to work. :)

Another benefit: take your spouses/partners; so long as they are able to let you work during the day while they hit the gym/spa/bingo etc. Everyone wins.

Only danger I see is eating too much.

<comment><USER10> To the eating part; if you aren't on "vacation" the gyms on cruise ships are ghost towns usually. Good way to fight to free food factor.

<comment><USER9> yes. also another tip I got that worked the last time we did a big family cruise: never take the elevators, always take the stairs. On at sea days we made it a point to walk at least 3 miles on the track outside on the ship. Managed not to gain any weight, which I counted as a win.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> In my humble opinion, this is a shitty idea. There are other quiet places with decent enough bandwidth that don't have the costs or risks of a cruise ship. My favorite one is the study section of the local library. I've also gone out to a cabin in the woods that only had a satellite link. My neighbor has soundproof walk-in closet.

As for the risks of a cruise ship, if something goes wrong, your options are limited. I say this as a navy veteran that's had to deal with multiple things that go wrong on a ocean vessel. (Fire, flooding, engine failure, etc...) As a civilian, I'm very wary of cruises.

<comment><USER12> What things can go wrong on a cruise ship that are very bad for people onboard? Isn't a life boat just a short run away?

<comment><USER13> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Concordia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Concordia)

or if you're of a different age:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic)

<comment><USER14> Things can also go wrong sleeping in your bed at night.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_fransisco_earthquake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_fransisco_earthquake)

<comment><USER13> read the comment to which I replied. it will put it in context.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Wow, I don't think this would have ever occurred to me, but it's genius!

I can go from London to San Juan in 14 days, for about £32 / day. That's cheaper than life at home.

Think I'm gonna book myself a cruise soon

Edit: Just exploring this guy's blog, and it turns out he's Herbal from "The Game" \- an excellent book if you've not read it.

<comment><USER16> That was a terrible book! You might as well read _Rich Dad, Poor Dad_.

<comment><USER15> I've not read RDPD, but unless I'm mistaken isn't it a self help type book? (in the vein of 4HWW). Where as The Game a novel, you can't really learn to pick up women from reading it, so not sure they can be compared.

<comment><USER17> The Game isn't a novel, it's an account of the author's experience in the so- called seduction community. It's arguable as to whether you could learn how to "pick up" women from it, whatever that means. (it's not an instruction manual) It is a decent read though, Strauss is a talented author.

<comment><USER15> True, I didn't mean literally a novel, just that it reads like one (as opposed to a self-help book). I thoroughly enjoyed it, I quite like some of Strauss' other books too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "Frankly, if you're not into bingo and ballroom dancing, you may find there's not much for you to do on the ship other than work or read."

What is happening to people? When you are insulating yourself from nearly every aspect of day-to-day normality just to be able to concentrate without distraction there is a problem and it's likely you are working to much. I'm all up for travelling but this just seems like an easy way to remove yourself from the world to get more done. Why not just check into a mental health clinic with a wifi dongle - you won't have to cook or clean and they'll be perfectly equipped to deal with you once the monumental burnout hits.

<comment><USER19> What if there's something I want to get done, and I have the time but I keep getting interrupted? I'll just go off somewhere with fewer distractions. That's what this is for.

<comment><USER20> I got the same impression from reading it as pastylegs did. To me, it sounded like the author does thing on the regular, as opposed to a one-off or rare type thing. If you have that much trouble creating a segmented space to work in your normal life, you either have too many distractions in your space, are too easily distracted, or have an unreasonable expectation of what it means to work.

<comment><USER21> Maybe they just enjoy working from a ship? The food, drink, sports and international travel are all attractive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> OP touched on another great remote work idea: the RV. Find a smaller model in good condition and outfit it with a Verizon mobile AP and you're in business. Sadly, I didn't move into remote work until after I got married and started a family but if I was 22 again, this is how I'd do it. I'd spend my winters in South Texas, around San Antonio and Port Aransas. In the springtime, I'd head up to Southern Utah, places like Escalante and Moab where I could mountain bike and go canyoneering. In the summer, I'd head for the mountain towns: Telluride, Colorado...Aspen...Park City, Utah...Idaho...for more mountain biking and hiking. In the fall, I'd head south again and start it all over.

All of these places have easily available wifi, good food, great people, and lots to do after work. If you're smart about it, there are even nice places just outside of these towns where you can camp (< 14 days) for free and still have 4G cell service.

<comment><USER23> I think the RV is ultimately a better lifestyle. Biking, hiking, sightseeing, canyoneering, etc. appeal to me a lot more than being stuck on a ship with a sad crew and tons of vacationers.

I don't think I'd compare the two directly, though. Driving an RV is probably more expensive per-day even discounting the food and services on a ship and assuming very little depreciation on the vehicle (i.e. you got a deal used), and it's a lot more work. Between finding places to park/camp, run the generator or hook up power, empty the toilet, maintain the drivetrain, cooking, and the inevitable RV disaster-breakdowns RVing is a lot of work - <USER2> far cry from "saunter to the restaurant, pick a meal, eat it, come back to a freshly cleaned room and more food."

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Like others here, my major concern would be access to the technical resources that are freely available on the internet like StackOverflow. I was curious and consulted the StackExchange API and license. They seem to indicate it would not only possible to pull down the site's entire contents but it also would be allowed under the CC license that is used. Although judging by the various throttles in place, it would take you roughly 11 days to grab all the data. So who wants to take the plunge, write up the scripts, pull the data, and then share it with everyone else?

<comment><USER24> The work is already down regularly:

[http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data- du...](http://www.clearbits.net/creators/146-stack-exchange-data-dump)

I do not know what format it is however because I have not gotten around to using it yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I wonder if Tynan would be as gung ho about working on cruise ships if he didn't happen to be launching a cruise deal aggregator site

<comment><USER26> I'm pretty sure it's the other way around: he wouldn't be launching a cruise deal aggregator site if he weren't so gung ho about working on cruise ships. [http://tynan.com/cruisesheet](http://tynan.com/cruisesheet)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Posts like this seem self-congratulatory, to me. Working in this field, we're well-compensated, and in a position of relative privilege based on that alone. Add to that the flexibility (when we have it) to not be tied down to a daily commute or an office/cube-farm, and we're living in another world entirely. We shouldn't forget this.

<comment><USER28> There is no honor in acting like you aren't privileged when you are. But moreover, cruises have a generally more glamorous image than the reality. You can often get on a cruise ship essentially for free, because they want you to spend money shopping and eating on the ship.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> In case someone didn't get to the bottom of the article, the author also built Cruise Sheet, which helps you find the cheapest cruises [http://cruisesheet.com/](http://cruisesheet.com/).

</comment><comment><USER30> Perspective from David Foster Wallace - "Shipping Out: On the (nearly lethal) comforts of a luxury cruise". Also known as "A Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again".

[pdf] [http://harpers.org/wp- content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazin...](http://harpers.org/wp- content/uploads/2008/09/HarpersMagazine-1996-01-0007859.pdf)

However, I don't think this (somewhat critical) article should deter any would-be cruise goers, especially if you have work to engage you during the time.

</comment><comment><USER31> My personal preference is 5 day stays in cat I to IV Starwood hotels in interesting places, during lower occupancy periods, with top tier status -- ends up costing $20-100/day all-in by gaming the points system.

I tend to go full Howard Hughes (not leaving my 2-3 room suite) for a few days, do some limited local exploration, etc. I feel a lot better having a separate bedroom and office. Free breakfast and lounge means effectively unlimited food, although local restaurants, room service, etc are options.

This week I've been at the Le Meridien Bangkok, probably my favorite hotel in town, for 5000 points/night, net, which is essentially $50/night in foregone cash back on credit card purchases, or about $100/night at retail. It cost me $50 to fly here from Singapore, where I couch surfed with friends for a few days, after 10 days in Bali with the girlfriend.

Less risk of fire, norovirus, my hotel is mainly full of nice Japanese people instead of either obnoxious partier spring break types or old dying people, 50M Internet, etc.

</comment><comment><USER32> This was an interesting read. His arguments for why he likes working on a cruise ship are very much my arguments for why I prefer to vacation on a cruise ship:

(1) Internet access is "limited". I'll stick with "limited" because it's a mixed bag. It's been 5 years since I cruised, though not Mediterranean and was able to find flat rate per-day, however, the one day I broke down and purchased access I found it to be very unreliable (single shared satellite connection for the entire ship). This is the same for phone service. The last ship I was on had a ship-board cell "tower" that showed up as international and I can imagine even T-Mobile doesn't cover that in their zero roaming considering ship to shore calls were $9.00/minute from the suite. This also encourages my coworkers to think long and hard about whether or not to call me in an emergency.

(2) Everything is taken care of, including entertainment. I find it difficult to relax, even on vacation -- it's an exercise of planning what to eat, when to eat, what to see, what to do and when to do it. When "at sea", the cruise director provides a menu of what you can do and when. You pick. Very little energy is expelled in enjoying myself.

(3) When in port, same rules apply. You don't have enough time to plan some grand excursion, so you pick one or two things to do and head back. I always opt for a room with a window and have found that if the ship is oriented with me facing the shore, I can pick up free Wi-Fi from restaurants at shore for a fix (even when the ship is too big and has to be anchored at sea). This provides for a quick fix of internet and stretching.

Because there are many times of the day where there is literally _nothing_ else to do, I find it's the only thing that slows my mind down. By day 7 or so I'm ready to be home again, and the weeks that follow my vacation are usually amazing. The time spent being forced to be alone with my thoughts results in me returning with new ideas, new ways to solve old problems and just a generally more positive outlook. It's the only vacation I take where I truly _get_ the idea of taking time out to decompress.

</comment><comment><USER33> I had no idea cruises were so cheap. I though they're ~$100/day. This is what it costs to get a cabin on a cargo ship.

<comment><USER34> It can be much cheaper than that to get cargo ship carriage:

[http://www.flightlesstravel.com/plan/cargo- ships/](http://www.flightlesstravel.com/plan/cargo-ships/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> OK, I have to be that guy. Barcelona to Casablanca is not a "transatlantic cruise".

Anyway, interesting idea if you can live without internet. Technically speaking, if you're in international waters (and not a US citizen, which is a long story), you won't even owe taxes on the work you do aboard.

<comment><USER36> In ship lingo it is. A trip from Florida across the Suez Canal and out to Singapore is also considered "Transatlantic".

Basically it just matters what your starting ocean is and if it's round trip or not.

<comment><USER36> Ugh. I meant to say Panama, and I'm wrong anyway. Derp moment. Disregard.

<comment><USER37> Thanks for coming back for that. I was scratching my head trying to figure out if there was some horrid route cruise ships took to get to the Mediterranean from Florida that involved them not going into the Atlantic.

"And then everyone gets out to help carry the ship over the Darien Gap..." or possibly,"Shackleton, the adventure."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I can see how the lack of Internet is awesome for preventing you from checking Facebook / Twitter / HN all day. At the same time, I'm not sure how productive I could be without near-constant access to StackOverflow. :)

<comment><USER39> [http://kapeli.com/dash](http://kapeli.com/dash)

<comment><USER40> awesome, I clicked the purchase button and.... only for mac :(

<comment><USER41> Yes, why is this not mentioned more prominently?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Earlier this year I wrote about how shrinking my business size down to one (me) allows me to work from trains. Specifically, I wrote that post while on board VIA Rail's The Canadian, which goes to/from Toronto to Vancouver in four days. It was awesome, and if you know where to look, these trips are _always_ 50% off.

[http://hackertourism.com/growing-by- shrinking](http://hackertourism.com/growing-by-shrinking)

<comment><USER43> I totally second this...

I took the Toronto to Vancouver train in 1984, and although I understand the details of that route have changed quite a bit since, it was a wonderful experience.

95% of the trip is through wilderness, with occasional stops in small cities that seem to just spring up in the middle of nowhere (Winnipeg...). Once past Thunder Bay, the train suddenly empties out a bit, so it doesn't feel crowded, and spending all day reading, in comfortable seats, with wilderness streaming by the huge window next to you is just wonderful. I found the other passengers quite interesting—I shared my four-seat "section" with a forestry student off to work in a lumbercamp for the summer, and learned a lot of interesting stuff about Canada, and forests... :]—and the vibe was very amiable and quiet. People were friendly, but there was a distinct lack of "chatterers" and most people seemed content to do their own thing most of the time.

Because the trip took five days, and there was basically _no_ demand on my time, it felt incredibly unrushed, and combined with constant low-level "passive" distraction in the form of scenery, the wonderful light, and the soothing motion and sounds of rail travel, it left me feeling both incredibly relaxed and oddly energetic.

Extreme long-distance train travel is generally way underrated, I think; obviously it's not ideal if you're in a hurry, but if you have a few days, it's often a treat. Although the Canadian trip was the best, I've also traveled by train from Seattle to Boston, and it was a great trip too, for many of the same reasons (Amtrak long-distance seats are just amazingly huge and comfortable though).

<comment><USER44> I went London-Osaka by train and ferry, which was great fun, but the longest single train was two and a half days (Moscow - Shymkent) and I wouldn't've wanted it to be any longer, even travelling with a friend and a tablet. Possibly the scenery was more repetitive than yours - empty snowfields as far as the eye can see is beautiful for a day or two, but does become boring.

<comment><USER43> Yeah, there's a nice amount of variation of environments across Canada, which did help.

I was also well prepared for some isolation, with a big stack of books to read, pads of paper etc for writing on etc.

In a way I also think it was easier alone. Travelling with a friend can great fun, but to some degree it can also detract from the feeling of freedom... Because there were some friendly passengers, I never felt lonely, but I also felt completely free to stare out the window and think for hours on end. No pressure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> If somebody is blogging about their lifestyle you have to question it. Creative geniuses seem to _vary_ in their response to distractions. Leonhard Euler claimed that he did important work with baby on knee. The inventor of the shape sorter (I forget his name) used to head off to a place of absolute quiet and stillness to conceive his inventions. John von Neumann turned the TV volume _up_ in order to work. Go figure

</comment><comment><USER46> Having been of a few cruises, I'd like to point out a few things:

1) Listed prices generally DO NOT include gratuities. Low level cruise employees like the cleaning crew, cabin stewards, waiters, cooks, etc. are paid ridiculously low wages, because cruise ships are registered to countries like Panama and the companies do not need to adhere to U.S. standards. I don't recall offhand, but for a 7-day cruise the "automatic" gratuity is, I believe, around $100 or so per person, so take that into consideration. You can remove the charge if you want to, but you'd have to be a pretty big asshole to do that :) Also, prices are based on double-occupancy, so if you go by yourself, double the fares.

2) Internet is expensive, slow, and charges by the minute). However, if you do this a lot, some cruise loyalty programs will give you free internet. I know Princess does this. Also, you're cell phone my work in certain locations. I'm a U.S. AT&T subscriber and I have full service in U.S. ports like San Juan and the U.S. Virgin Islands. If you can tether your phone, you'll get much faster and cheaper service that way than on the boat internet.

3) Don't get sick / injured. My wife stepped on broken glass while wearing open-toed shoes and got cut up pretty bad. The doctor on board used strips instead of stitches, and the cut reopened in two days, by which time we were already off the ship. The crew handled the incident terribly. The problem with the glass was not resolved quickly, my wife had to wait a fair amount of time for someone to show up with a wheelchair to take her to the doctor and the crew went into "don't get sued" mode really quickly. They gave us pushback when we refused to sign a liability waiver before getting treatment and we had some security guy who kept insisting to come into our room to photograph the shoes my wife was wearing at the time. When we complained the next day about the process, a nice woman sat down with us to hear out our complaint, but never really did anything. We were adamant about NOT paying for the care and it never showed up on our bill, so we let well enough alone. Three months later, they sent us a bill for $300 for the care. After we sent their HQ a letter in response, they ended up waiving the fee and giving us $100 credit towards our next cruise. Nice, but it was ridiculous in the first place since.

4) In regards to the above, had something worse happened, or they had refused to waive the fee, good luck fighting the cruise company in court. You're not only bound by typical consumer-crushing stuff like forced arbitration, but you're also getting into international legal difficulties. For big cases like the cruise that tipped over, it's worth the hassle, but for smaller claims, you're pretty limited in what you can realistically do.

All that said, I think this is a pretty cool idea and had always thought about how cruises could be a cool little work/vacation thing.

<comment><USER47> He says room service is "free", which suggests that he's not tipping. Someone pointed out down thread that this guy's a pickup artist ([http://www.pualingo.com/pua-profiles/herbal- tynan/](http://www.pualingo.com/pua-profiles/herbal-tynan/)), which is empirically correlated with "asshole", which in turn is correlated with "does not tip".

<comment><USER48> I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals.

You should read "The Game", by Neil Strauss. He documents the process of becoming a pickup artist, the people he met, the stages he went through. And as you read it, you will realise something - the only surefire way to becoming a successful PUA is to improve yourself, to become the best version of yourself, and at the end of it all, that's what these guys were trying to do.

Yeah, there are assholes. There's always assholes. But at the end of the day, this so-called "PUA" culture is about turning yourself into the best version of yourself you can be. And isn't that what all us startup types are trying to do? Rising to a challenge? Stepping into those shoes? Pushing ourselves beyond what we thought possible? Closing the deal?

There are more parallels than you think. Read that book. And don't be so eager to judge people. They're more like you than you realise.

<comment><USER49> One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.

<comment><USER50> I know I will get downvotes for this...

But "here comes the shaming language" ...

Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years.

EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water.

Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.

<comment><USER51> > Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA > tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue > Teen and then the Cosmo years.

See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there.

> EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has > the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make > him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever.

Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.)

> It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't > notice the water.

Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" \-- _not_ usually a point of _pride_.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.)

For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles.

But what is certainly _not_ true is that they don't notice it.

> Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on > his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the > Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.

No, only when they proudly label _themselves_ as members of a community whose very _name_ is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex.

You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Now imagine how much undistracted work you could get done on a six-month trip to Mars.

</comment><comment><USER53> Great work on the article and CruiseSheet.com. Could you update the "From" dropdown to combine "New York, New York" and "New York, NY"?

</comment><comment><USER54> Prediction: This will be a trend. People are less likely to be married now than they used to be. People increasingly feel loyalty to a culture rather than a country. Internet access on cruise ships will become cheaper.

<comment><USER9> Already this is a trend, but for senior citizens. Many of them use cruise ships as retirement communities for nearly similar reasons.

[http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/2013-2-2-cruise-ship- retire...](http://www.aplaceformom.com/blog/2013-2-2-cruise-ship-retirement- assisted-living/)

"According to Dr. Lee Lindquist's 2004 study comparing assisted living costs and benefits to those offered by cruise ships, "cruises were priced similarly to assisted living centers and were more efficacious." Lindquist claimed that over a 20-year life expectancy, cruise ships only cost about $2,000 more than the cost of assisted living. And, she says, "when you compare that to the $9,000 a month or more charged by some assisted living facilities," a cruise ship may seem like a bargain indeed."

<comment><USER55> The hazards and medical care availability pointed out in the article (Good 'ol Cecil) seem to greatly outweigh any possible benefits.

<comment><USER9> I won't argue with you there, but it is a trend which was the subject of the parent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> The idea of being able to travel around the world with just a laptop reminds me of being a 21st century writer. Take the notepad to a remote beach and just write. I love the idea of working on a cruise ship but I imagine it would get kind of hard to code without internet. Is that something you face?

</comment><comment><USER57> As much as id like to work from different places alot, i just cant stand the fact of being hunched over a laptop all day. Most of these places that are not an office, just arent very ergonomic.

</comment><comment><USER58> This could be somewhat bad for the cruise industry. I think cruises sell at a loss and hope to make there money back through alcohol spas, gambling or things someone working folks will not do.

</comment><comment><USER59> I find Las Vegas is a great place to get work done, assuming you don't have a gambling addiction and don't mind working from hotel rooms. Hotels are super cheap, food is reasonable (if you're careful where you eat), and you can usually find cheap flights.

Downsides: You'll need a wireless hotspot since hotels charge too much for internet access (ones without resort fees). Starbucks is overpriced and there aren't many other coffee shops on the strip.

</comment><comment><USER60> Hmm, I wonder if I could publish a dd-wrt fork that requires you to pay me $0.20 to $0.70 per minute for internet access.

</comment><comment><USER61> Great post. Being new in my entrepreneurial career I'm just learning the pleasures of working from anywhere.

I live in San Diego, but a few weeks ago I drove up to NorCal to visit the parents. While there I attended Startup School in the bay area. The next week I flew to Boston and stayed with a friend in Cambridge and attended WordCamp Boston. I attended the Business of Software conference next and stayed at the Seaport Hotel. At the end of the conference I took the short ride to Cape Cod and stayed there for a week or so with some family. It was a little chilly this time of year, but with everyone gone during the day and the tourist season over I could really enjoy the beauty and eat at all of the great restaurants. It's incredibly peaceful. I even spent some time at the Chatham Bars Inn and worked from there...absolutely incredible.

By staying with friends and family and managing costs the whole few weeks probably cost around $1,000 including plane tickets. The most expensive thing was the three nights at the Seaport Hotel, which cost around $500 even though I split the room with someone. It would have been a lot more if my wife was with me since we would have wanted to do more.

So now I'm back in NorCal staying with my parents. I'll probably stay here through Thanksgiving then head back home to San Diego for the winter.

This lifestyle really is incredible. It'll be interesting to see how it works out when my wife and I have kids, I assume it'll be a pain in the ass. I can't believe I had a 'real' job for so long. Sure I work about 2x as much, but I love it. Besides, it's really only work if you'd rather be doing something else.

<comment><USER62> How did you arrange a roomshare at a hotel? friend or online service?

<comment><USER61> I shared the room with a guy I met earlier this year at MicroConf (another great conference). I think Rob Walling or Mike Taber put us in touch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> This guys is enjoying life while making money and seeing the world. Who am I to argue :) I'm not sure what I would do without internet for that long (especially since I listen to internet radio all the time), but if you can get past that, more power to you.

<comment><USER64> Internet on cruise ships is fairly cheap

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> I can't wait for a Google Driverless Car to essentially be the same thing for me.

I order one with my cell phone, it shows up, I hop in, type my destination, and then I can ignore the world while I'm getting stuff done. Or sleeping.

I get to see interesting places, but get stuff done.

<comment><USER66> Can't tell if trolling or serious...

Take a train.

<comment><USER67> He's serious, and so am I. Trains go on rails, so a driverless car can go many places trains can't. Can't wait for it to become reality either. Like in Children of Men, but with time better.

<comment><USER66> I think Vernor Vinge's depiction of the future of driverless cars in Rainbows End was interesting, and something that could actually happen someday.

If you haven't read it, in the book, there are numerous driverless cars that operate a bit like taxis: you can hail one or you can summon one. They take you to your destination, and then rejoin the pool of free cars that are ready to take people places.

There's a minor plot point where one of the characters fights with the embedded logic of the car, which refuses to take him where he wants to go (and indeed refuses to just "stop the damn car so I can get out" since he wants to get out along the shoulder of a freeway on-ramp or something like that).

Vinge's driverless cars are neat (I would be 99% happy with them) but they subvert the automobile's typical role in American society: rather than being an enabler of rugged independence, it only allows you to go where the state says you may go.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> I went on my first cruise last year, 4 days, and it was one of the worst vacation experiences of my life. Don't go when school is out unless you're planning on bringing your asshole children and letting them roam free with the other kids.

</comment><comment><USER69> I really like the simplicity of the UI of your cruise deal website. As someone who is currently looking to book a cruise trip, this helps.

<comment><USER70> Thank you! I actually redesigned it to be simpler on the flight over to where the cruise started.

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> Folks who are interested in this in terms of lack of distractions might also want to consider doing commercial freighter cruises.

<comment><USER36> I'm actually not into the whole cruise entertainment experience anyway and would appreciate a few weeks to mostly be a loner while my needs are taken care of. Commercial Freight is a fantastic idea that I plan on doing hopefully next year.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> I had this same experience working in Cuba for a month. I was writing, so I didn't need internet. They don't have it there, except for occasional slow access in certain access points, where I went to handle correspondence once a week.

I stayed in a family's house. They cooked, cleaned and made coffee. I had zero responsibilities. Results:

I wrote 50% more than usual. I read 7 novels, including Moby Dick. I socialized more than usual. I exercised and went for long walks every day. I studied for the GMAT.

Not having internet was very helpful, but outsourcing all domestic tasks made a huge difference.

</comment><comment><USER73> I am currently on a trip to Miami where I am actively working every day. For me the worst part about being away from home is finding a decent workspace where I can really concentrate and get in the zone to program.

The chairs are usually terrible and anything more than a few hours seated makes me want to move somewhere else. Even when working standing (using a kitchen counter for instance) is bad: the height is sub optimal.

I would love to hear suggestions if anyone has insights or good tips for what you do in cases like this.

</comment><comment><USER74> > or to get caught up in the dreaded Reddit -> Hacker News -> Reddit cycle.

Dang!

</comment><comment><USER75> One of the academic conferences in my field has been on a cruise on and off [1], for some of these reasons. One of the main things people like about it is that it keeps everyone together: everyone eats in the same dining room, drinks at the same bars, and it's easy to meet up and split off into impromptu discussing/working groups somewhere. Whereas in a big city people tend to diffuse, partly by income (well-paid people go to different restaurants than grad students), partly by interest, partly by what part of the city they found a hotel in. Many people also like no-internet. No temptation to respond to work emails or check Facebook during talks! And finally, it means everyone _has_ to come for the whole conference or none of it: no showing up for half the conference, or just for your keynote.

The cost is also surprisingly low, typically coming out less in total than a typical "big hotel" conference does: when you add up conference-room rental, catering for coffee breaks and lunch, cost of hotel rooms, restaurants for dinner, etc., the cruise ship's all-in group pricing typically ends up cheaper per person, sometimes substantially so.

The downsides:

1\. It looks bad externally, like academics wasting taxpayer money on a boondoggle. Even if it's cheaper, the image is too luxurious. It looks better to have a conference at a Marriott in Chicago, _even if_ that costs the taxpayers more. It looks bad enough that some people won't come, because their source of funds won't approve the trip.

2\. Flipside of the community tightness aspect is that it can feel claustrophobic to be essentially stuck at the conference, literally unable to leave the floating conference hotel.

3\. No internet means certain kinds of demos won't work, or need added preparation. Although this is good practice anyway, because conference-room internet is often flaky even on land.

4\. Not being able to come for only part of the conference can also be a disadvantage, since the schedule is inflexible. If you have a hard conflict anywhere in the conference, you have to skip it, since there is no way to arrive half a day late, or leave even 2 hours early.

Last year we experimented with having it in a medium-sized town with a compact city center, in a lower-cost-of-living location [2], to try to get some of the advantages without the disadvantages. I think this worked fairly well, and I personally liked it more than the cruise ship. But there is an added travel disadvantage, because there are few compact towns that also have good international airports.

[1] [http://www.fdg2014.org/](http://www.fdg2014.org/)

[2] Chania, Crete: [http://www.fdg2013.org/attendees/](http://www.fdg2013.org/attendees/)

<comment><USER58> Where are keynotes or big talks held. I did not know ships had rooms where hundreds of people could listen to a presentatio. Do cruise ships have projctors/screens?

<comment><USER75> Many ships have auditoriums with projectors/screens. They're used for various kinds of shows during the cruise, but you can often arrange with them (far ahead of time, as part of booking the conference) to have use of the auditorium during certain hours.

The 2009 version of this conference was on a Disney cruise ship, and the keynotes and plenum sessions were in the auditorium/theatre pictured here: [http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f8/t006888.html](http://www.film- tech.com/ubb/f8/t006888.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER76> According to his site, the daily rate is actually cheaper to take a cruise than to pay rent on a 3 bdr house in much of the bay area.

</comment><comment><USER77> I took a cruise earlier this year with my girlfriend and we paid $600 combined. After tips and a lot of boozing, we ended up spending around $1000 combined an average of $100 per day. You can do it for a lot cheaper as well, plus we weren't using the internet.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat and work if there was a steady internet connection.

</comment><comment><USER78> Interesting idea, but the lack of internet to look things up easily could be a headache. I suppose it would help if you already have expert-level knowledge in the tech stack that you're working in, and/or you can download local copies of lots of documentation.

<comment><USER79> I find that for myself, that when I work without Internet access, the boost I get from a lack of distractions usually cancels out the problems caused by inability to look things up. A lot of the time, having to figure out things that I would usually look up helps me to think more deeply about the problem at hand. Downloading a manual or two is often all I really need to be productive offline.

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> Regarding the internet - one can set up the iodined server somewhere at home [http://dev.kryo.se/iodine/wiki/HowtoSetup](http://dev.kryo.se/iodine/wiki/HowtoSetup) and use elinks to browse internet ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELinks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELinks)) . m.facebook.com, m.google.com, m.gmail.com have light, html-only versions of their websites, which works OK in slow net conditions.

I would like to have an app that learn from my browsing usage and from time to time caches my favorite part of the internet (for example in my case it would cache the hacker news site 1 link deep from front page)

</comment><comment><USER81> That sounds like a great idea. I've tried programming on a trans-siberian train ride, but it was SO HARD to get any exercise at all - feels unhealthy. Plus you end up thinking about food a lot (missing _good_ food, mostly).

</comment><comment><USER82> One of the reasons I enjoy cruises so much. So easy to disconnect from the rest of the world, but you still have access if you really need it. I bought an hour of internet on the last cruise we took to ration for the week, mostly to check email once a day. I used RDP on the way to Puerto Rico from my cabin to fix a quick server issue also. Connection was useable, but very laggy (as expected).

</comment><comment><USER83> I've always wondered about this, the relative price of cruises make it a cool place to do the work from home thing. I lived in Costa Rica for 6 months while working from home, and it was a great experience. I was wondering about the internet connection, and I guess if you don't have to maintain visibility via some chat program then I guess you wouldn't really need it that often.

</comment><comment><USER84> This is a pretty great idea. I'm trying to travel and work on a few projects right now, and my average is turning out to be around $75-$100 per day for the US. $50 per day sounds like a fun, cheap way to get some work done, assuming you can get access to the internet at least in some capacity.

</comment><comment><USER85> Am I the only person left who enjoys having a nice comfy office, a nice beefy desktop, some books and a nice little sound system?

Even some co-workers who you can bounce ideas off of.

I find working for long periods on nothing but a laptop challenging.

</comment><comment><USER86> Lot's of choices on the West Coast as well, looks like you can go up to Alaska and down to Santiago, or over to Hawaii.

Interesting idea, although it's going to be a really tough sell to go without the family. :/

</comment><comment><USER87> Great idea. Pretty sure I wouldn't get much done with limited internet access though. Maybe I'll try to simulate limited connectivity for a while a see how it goes...

</comment><comment><USER88> Airport trips I like the most for the same reason, but they never take 9+ days. Tynan made a good point.

<comment><USER89> "Airport trips"? Can you elaborate?

<comment><USER88> When I was a student and had lots of free-time in the summer. I did some trips where I intentionally spent long hours on airports. Taking advantage of the many low-cost airlines in Europe, once I managed to buy a whole Budapest- London-Cork, Dublin-Barcelona, Barcelona-Budapest trip for $120. That made a trip with 5 flights, 8 different airports in 7 days and 3 cities where I actually stayed over.

I find airports very neutral in-between spaces and thus perfect for concentration and work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> So yes please: what are those tricks for getting cruises cheaply?

<comment><USER70> Will be writing that post very soon... I don't normally submit my own posts to HN, but I will submit that one if no one else does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> Whatever works for you.

</comment><comment><USER92> I fuckin love this guy.

<comment><USER70> Thank you. I love you, too.</comment></comment>


Future of the New York Times - <AUTHOR> http://futurenytimes.org/about/

<comment><USER2> The javascript-run inertial scrolling is too distracting from the article for me to be able to read it.

Looks like it's nicescroll[0], a jquery plugin (!!!).

If you had a browser extension that allowed you to execute js on each page you visited, the plugin can be turned off if you define `$.niceScroll = true`.

Maybe I should write that one day.

[0] [https://github.com/inuyaksa/jquery.nicescroll](https://github.com/inuyaksa/jquery.nicescroll)

<comment><USER3> Naturally, on OS X, where scroll events are already inertia-ed by the time they reach the browser, this makes scrolling way too fast. As a bonus, it breaks the two-finger back/forward gestures, as well as cmd-{up, down} to go to the top or bottom. How nice...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I applaud the NYT for opening itself up like this, and for giving these students a seriously cool project to work on. Who knows how many of their ideas will actually be practicable? But at least the NYT is expressing intellectual curiosity and submitting itself to examination. And it's willing to be examined by a segment (college students) that few other media organizations would take very seriously.

Also, apropos of nothing, kudos to these kids for sneaking a Pied Piper logo into one of their pages. :)

</comment><comment><USER5> The Future-Facing Products page is the most interesting.

The bottom row of icons includes three non-advertising sources of revenue: merch, events and eduction. The merch is self-explanatory. It's what musicians rely on, too. The events parallel how tech blogs make their money. And the courses are an echo of how the Washington Post relied on Kaplan for its profit, until Bezos solved that problem.

Like most things tied to the NYT, the self congratulatory tone often obstructs a clear view of reality. This sentence, for example, is laughable:

"That same year, the Times launched its Chinese website, with staff based in China. Though later blocked by the Chinese government, it has been largely considered a success."

Losing access to 99% of all Chinese-language readers is the opposite of success, and implies that the NYT deeply misread how little its coverage was aligned with the rules of Xi Jinping's regime.

The man they wanted to lead the Beijing bureau ended up stuck in Hong Kong for lack of a visa, and is now the nominal head of the IHT newsroom there.

</comment><comment><USER6> While I'm sure we're all frustrated with the scroll hacking, can we just not discuss that and instead focus on what an interesting and exciting project this is? I really wish I had a class half this interesting in undergrad.

<comment><USER7> The technical staff making the page have a non-zero possibility of reading HN. They might eventually realize that people hate the scrolling experience, if every post mostly talks about the scrolling.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Resubmitting my critique of the Times from a month ago (I hope this isn't frowned upon at HN):

\</comment><comment>--

I read the NYT daily (via RSS feeds). It is an important institution for the U.S. and the world; the options are rapidly shrinking for high-quality journalism and so I worry about the Times' future. From my perspective the Times' content is invaluable, but in 2015 the Times is hurting itself because it still hasn't embraced the web. www.nytimes.com is still a newspaper's website, not a news website. When I'm looking for news in my browser, I don't care that you have a paper edition, I only care which website serves me best.

\</comment><comment>--

1) Design: Look at the homepage. If someone was asked to design a new news (not a newspaper) website, who would design it like that? Rather than a news website it looks like a newspaper on the web, seemingly trying to mimic the layout of a newspaper's pages. (It's not just the Times -- often it's easy to identify news websites with a newspaper legacy.) From the perspective of people familiar with the Times on paper, it might seem familiar; but get outside that bubble and it's archaic and a bit bizarre.[1]

Also, it hides so much content; why put all that talent and effort into work product that you show only to a few? My NYT RSS feeds look like a different, far richer publication than [http://www.nytimes.com/](http://www.nytimes.com/). Again, it seems like attachment to the legacy newspaper design, where people can't easily pick up another publication and so will flip through Times' pages and sections looking for something interesting. The overall structure is a newspaper's sections forced into a website's medium.

\</comment><comment>--

2) Multimedia is still secondary: Articles still are primarily text, but now more often with video and image bolted on almost as decoration, and not an integral part of the content, equal to the text. See today's article on Tomi Ungerer[2], chosen at random. This is about a visual artist, and it actually has several images within the text, rather than on top or in a pop-out, but the images are merely decorative. The author doesn't write, 'look at this drawing; see the use of color, the ironic shapes, etc.' and look at this detail <img: zoomed-in detail> where Mr. Ungerer uses X to do Y' It's almost as if the the author wrote the article and someone else picked some relevant decorations later.

There's even a link in prime real estate, just beneath the banner, to "Video", as if I choose my news based on whether it's in text or video. As if you are saying, 'our actual news is below, and video is something we do over here'. I just want the news; I trust you to choose the best mix of mediums to communicate that particular story.

The solution is well known: Most amateur bloggers are equally fluent in text and multimedia; rather than describing something they write 'look at this' or 'here's what happened' or 'here is the before and after' and, in the middle of their post place a video, image, or short loop as appropriate. Hundreds of millions of phone users fluently communicate with images and photos. But the talented, professional communicators at the Times stick primarily to text, I suppose because that's what they did on paper.

I'm not looking for graphic excitement; they are just communication tools and sometimes multimedia is the right tool, sometimes text is; the Times seems to choose its tools based on paper's limitations (i.e., text is cheap, images expensive in both space and $, video impossible) and not what communicates best on the web (where all are cheap and space is unlimited).

\</comment><comment>---

3) Updates and the news cycle: Two things I still see in the Times: A) 'Updated at 4:55pm'. If I read the article at 3:00pm, that isn't very helpful; should I re-read the entire thing and try to figure out what changed? Run a diff? Again, the solutions are well known and most bloggers handle this situation effectively; the Times still seems to be designing newspaper articles that will be published and read once. B) When you do have someone blogging a breaking news story, sometimes I'll see 'That's it for tonight, I'll be back at 8am tomorrow'. I don't have to explain the problems with that, though I'll add that the news and your readers are in time zones worldwide.

\</comment><comment>---

[1] This will be shocking to say but I'm trying to make a point about how far the Times is, conceptually, from the web medium: Consider the most recognized branding element, the detailed, archaic font used for "The New York Times", in the banner. In the days of newspapers, when readers could only type in Courier if at all, the font was special. It said, 'this was printed professionally, with skill and seriousness'. Now kids can print fonts like that on their school papers, anyone can do it on their WordPress blog, and when they do it's frowned upon. Now that element says, 'not a digital native, stuck in our glorious past'. Again, it's hard to imagine a newly created news website making that design decision. You may have a strong attachment to that design element, but billions of web users don't care. (I know branding is difficult to change; I expect the font will remain.)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/arts/design/review-tomi- un...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/arts/design/review-tomi-un..).

<comment><USER3> I don't wholly disagree with your critique, but I'll counter on one point. The Times' videos are not the raw source videos you usually see in blogs, which complement and are given context by the text. Compared to TV news, they do tend to spend more time on source material, but overall they tend to follow its model: interviews, on-scene footage, and narration professionally cut together to make a complete narrative. Like on TV (or, for that matter, professional YouTube creators' channels), the video is the complete experience, a replacement for a textual story, not merely a part of it. And as TV and YouTube demonstrate, this is a perfectly valid way to tell a story which many people appreciate; I, on the other hand, prefer text, because I can consume it much faster. It seems reasonable to me that people should be able to choose between the two media. Which is not to say that more of a fusion between the two precedents isn't possible...

<comment><USER8> I think that making the whole experience one medium or the other, all text or all video, is a relic of platforms that only supported one medium, newsprint and TV. Yes, some stories will demand so much of one or the other that maybe using all video or text makes sense, but clearly that's not what's happening.

If the NYT wants to tell stories as effectively as possible, they should be using the most effective tools as needed. Their priorities seem to be elsewhere.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What is up with the scrolling on that site? It's jumps to hyperspeed about 1/2 way down the fold

<comment><USER10> Yup. Absolutely horrific.

I'd hope that someone inspecting some of the digital missteps the NYT has made would at least get their website right...

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Watching the video makes me think this is some kind of parody site. It starts out with some depressed looking worn out dude slouching in his chair mumbling incomprehensibly.</comment>