Google AMP Is Not a Good Thing - <AUTHOR> https://danielmiessler.com/blog/google-amp-not-good-thing/#gs.IsZQ8YE <comment><USER2> Do we really need Instant Articles (Facebook) and AMP (Google) when we can accomplish fast loading pages with plain, uncomplicated HTML and CSS?

I feel that many web developers don't realise that simple HTML and CSS is often all you need to make clear, fast loading pages. No complicated tricks or techniques required. You can make the page reasonably pleasant in appearance too.

Think of the sites you often visit: news stories, blogs, magazine-style sites, discussion sites. These are mostly text, not web apps.

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I'd like to ask if readers find the web page links below fast to load on their mobile phones? They don't use AMP.

I created the pages below as a test because I was (and still am) frustrated by the slow page-loading speeds when using my phone with a 3G connection.

The page links below represent a common article/blog/report style of page. There's about 2500+ words on the page.

The page content is CC licensed but the pictures from the original synopsis are not included despite the references in the text (since this was just a test)

So is it fast?

Version A: [http://interfacesketch.com/test/energy-book- synopsis-a.html](http://interfacesketch.com/test/energy-book-synopsis-a.html)

Here is an identical version to the above but one that loads custom fonts (approx 40kb extra). Is this slower?

Version B: [http://interfacesketch.com/test/energy-book- synopsis-b.html](http://interfacesketch.com/test/energy-book-synopsis-b.html)

<comment><USER3> Okay but let's be realistic-- you are not a major publisher trying to make money off these pages. You can say "yes my page loads in 100k and 300ms until DOMContentLoaded" all you want, that doesn't change the fact that when you slap a couple of pieces of advertising on there, it's going to slow down.

To give you an idea-- the New York Times page without any advertising on it is 2MB and has a DOMContentLoaded event at 1.29s, approximately 1 second slower than your page. With advertising, it is 3.9MB and 1.82s.

When ad networks are able to run without almost 2MB of Javascript, then we can talk about how AMP isn't needed.

<comment><USER4> > you are not a major publisher trying to make money off these pages.

Hate to break it to you, but major publishers _aren 't_ making any money of the AMP'd version of their pages - most of the monetization is stripped out, and readers aren't even actually on their site so they won't stay and click around.

<comment><USER5> The spec for amp specifically has an "amp-ad" tag for displaying ads. There are multiple ways they can be shown in an AMP page. The nice thing about AMP ads is they will not cause the page to change layout/flow as they load. I believe a size must be declared for ads to prevent bad behavior.

[https://www.ampproject.org/docs/reference/components/amp- ad](https://www.ampproject.org/docs/reference/components/amp-ad)

<comment><USER4> I didn't say they couldn't show ads, but basic ads aren't the only way that these places monetize. Trackers, 'you might also like' panels, etc all feed in to the overall monetization strategy. A couple of amp-approved ads on an amp- page don't necessarily make up for all that...

<comment><USER6> I'm pretty sure 'all that' is what users are trying to avoid with AMP.

<comment><USER7> I'm not trying to avoid anything. As a user I don't even get a choice for AMP or no AMP. In fact, I changed my search engine on my phone to DuckDuckGo specifically to get rid of AMP pages.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Google should reward fast / jank-free websites instead of rewarding websites that use one particular technology (AMP).

On SERPs, both the "flash" icon and the AMP carousel are AMP-exclusive which suggests that Google is abusing its market power.

<comment><USER9> They do. They reward sites that load fast. They also offer AMP as another way to speed sites up, which in turn makes them rise in rankings. But Google offers a large suite of tools to help web developers speed up their websites.

<comment><USER10> I hear this a lot, but whenever I search for something common like lyrics or weather, I get only large bloated webpages, while the lightweight and simple ones are nowhere to be found. Unless Google opens up their reasoning for ranking, I genuinely don't believe they add enough weight to load-times.

<comment><USER11> Huh, what? What site do you get? I always get azlyrics which is a fairly simple and clean site. EVery other one I tried seems more bloated.

Obviously, there's many other factors at play. SEO is a complicated world, especially in such a crowded place as song lyrics. Though I noticed Google actually has an inline box for lyrics now which avoids the issue entirely.

<comment><USER10> azlyrics is _far_ from what I would consider simple or clean. It took over 30s to load for me and had way too much junk on the page.

Yes, there are many factors, and I clearly don't know all of them. I definitely see the problem that Google's inline (or amp) is trying to solve, but I think encouraging the right sites to grow to the top is a much better solution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I love AMP because I can easily tell which sites will actually load fast and give me the info I wanted directly from the search results page.

Publishers are still able to track pageviews and serve ads, so I don't get what the hullaballoo is all about here.

There's nothing in the AMP spec that stops links from working.

I just searched for "Is Google AMP a good thing" on my mobile, and got the OP's post as the first result (probably personalized?). Had to go to the fourth result for something with AMP, from CIO.com. The page loaded instantly, was able to scroll without things jumping around, and the header link to the CIO.com homepage worked as expected. They were still able to serve ads and count my pageview too, even if I never directly contacted their server.

I just don't get what the big deal is.

<comment><USER13> I see you have never wanted to link someone to an AMP page. You also somehow didn't notice that there's a huge useless bar at the top of the page.

<comment><USER12> Just for giggles, I hit "copy link" in the Chrome Webview that the Android Google Search App opened up. Pasted that into Android Chrome, and it took me straight the AMP page, which loaded instantly and let me scroll right away. Seems fine.

I then went to my desktop, used the Chrome history feature to open the tab from my mobile, and the AMP URL redirected me to the publisher's desktop site, which took multiple seconds to load and then displayed an annoying interstitial.

If anything, I'm frustrated that my desktop browser wouldn't open the AMP page and load and allow scrolling immediately with no interstitials.

The "huge useless bar" at the top was the exact same in the AGSA Chrome Webview as the OP's non-AMP site. I don't know what you're on about. I didn't notice it because it's not there.

I went and looked at the search results in Android Chrome (instead of the Google Search app), and there was an extra bar at the top that said "From cio.com" which disappeared as soon as I scrolled, which happened instantly because I was able to load and scroll instantly.

<comment><USER14> I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

I _don 't_ much like the idea of AMP because, to me, it does violate the idea of an open and free world wide _web_. But, equally, publishers have brought this on themselves. (And I suppose, equally, it isn't the halcyon days of the mid 1990s any more either.)

Sites are egregiously slow and heavyweight, and the experience on mobile is often nothing short of appalling with actual content when it eventually loads relegated below the fold, or near the bottom of the screen. You then have to find a way to scroll without accidentally triggering an ad and once you've done this you're likely to be confronted with one of those delayed interstitials that are so in vogue (and so _completely_ unacceptable) at the moment.

From this perspective AMP is kind of a backdoor to holding large media outlets (in particular) to account for the inexcusably poor web experience they offer to users. Because this isn't a technology limitation: it's a choice they make in the name of monetization.

Rant over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It got annoying enough for me to switch my search to bing.com everywhere, including Google's own browser. My two main complaints: 1. Once I am on AMP page, most of the time I want to click around the site and I cannot do that - feels like a cage. 2. URL obfuscates the site name and article title (not completely, but definitely adds visual noise)

<comment><USER16> 2a) I want to get to the site, not another Google property.

Penalize my search listing all you like, but none of my stuff will be hosted elsewhere.

I thought publishers learned their lessons here - use someone else's printing press, and ultimately, they control what's printed.

<comment><USER10> This is the part that I don't understand. Why are publishers so eager to give away control of their meal-ticket?

<comment><USER17> They can always turn AMP off if Google does something evil.

<comment><USER10> And lose their ranking? It won't be as simple as "just turn it off"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Be sure to read Paul Bakaus's response, "Why AMP caches exist", to hear both sides of the issue. [https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/why-amp-caches- exis...](https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/why-amp-caches-exist/amp/)

(Though, actually, it's only a response in spirit; Bakaus's article was posted about a week earlier than Miessler's.)

I think the problem with the AMP cache model is that, because you need to link directly to the cached URL, you commit to exactly one cache provider. If Bing were to also implement their own validated AMP cache for Bing search results, you can't have one link point to both; you're either AMPed in Google results or in Bing results, and, by being marginally bigger, Google wins _all_ of the pie. That's no good.

How might we change the AMP standard, or the trust model around AMP caches, to get the same performance wins while still enabling competition?

</comment><comment><USER19> Similar to Medium, AMP encourages fast page loads and no interstitials, pop- ups or other cancer that seems to infest the average site these days.

Yes, it may be possible to fix it over time. But I see AMP and Medium as clean, lightweight platforms that developers/marketers want to emulate and users will start to demand.

From a user experience, you definitely can't beat the speed of AMP delivered content. So it's a high bar to beat. But if it forces content providers to up their game, I see it as a good thing.

I guess the scary point, that hasn't explicitly been mentioned, is what happens when a good portion (maybe not a majority) of content is AMP-enabled. Is it something we transition away from, or is it here to stay? Will non-AMP, but fast pages be second-class citizens in the new AMP-era?

<comment><USER20> Nothing about Medium is lightweight. Consider this one-sentence article that results in a 1.2MB pageload:

[https://medium.com/@mceglowski/chickenshit- minimalism-846fc1...](https://medium.com/@mceglowski/chickenshit- minimalism-846fc1412524)

There are more examples and a broader examination available from idlewords:

[http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm](http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm)

<comment><USER4> Lucky you - that medium link was a 2.19MB download on my laptop.

<comment><USER14> That's really strange. 760KB for me, but it was a good 3 - 4 seconds before everything had rendered. The article content was there much more quickly, but the recommendations and responses sections below took longer to appear.

Crazy because when you look at Medium it does appear to be very clean so this experience has certainly been somewhat disillusioning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Out of interest, is there anyone who wants to defend the current Google AMP (not the concept of lighter webpages, but how google has gone about it?) I haven't found anyone yet personally.

<comment><USER22> Just noticed a few days ago one of the major Australian newspapers started using AMP.

I do understand the negativities around Google's AMP, but the speed was.. blazing fast.

I can't help to think that for a user who may not be familiar with all the underlying issues, it is a pretty good user experience in terms of the speed alone.

<comment><USER23> I'd image they've done that because they want to get on the news carousel,and only AMP sites appear in that. They're basically being forced to use it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> If you share an AMP page it will indeed link to Google's CDN but if you click it it immediately redirects to the full article on desktop:

[http://i.imgur.com/43i9X4e.png](http://i.imgur.com/43i9X4e.png)

The full URL is still part of the shared link, so not much of a value has been lost, but the gain (speed boost) still outperforms this "inconvenience".

I don't really feel the hatred against AMP, it works as intended and for me as an end user that's all that matters.

<comment><USER25> I really like AMP. As a web company, it reduces our hosting costs and is a cheater way to improve the rankings of our sites.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> The core argument of this article is flawed. AMP does not break normal links-- although the Google search engine sort of does.

As an example of using AMP with normal links, see Cloudflare's implementation[0]. It is possible for many CDN-like services to implement AMP caches. Web sites link to each other normally, and mobile visitors can be served the AMP version.

Remember that AMP is an open standard and accepting pull requests[1].

> Who (other than Google) can possibly see this as a good thing?

Users want faster pages. From all these AMP critics, I have never heard an alternate solution, or even an idea, of how we can streamline delivery of article content.

AMP is imperfect. But it is a step in the right direction _for users_. Critics need to step up with a better idea, or maybe some code, and quit with the (in this case, unfounded) rhetoric.

[0] [https://blog.cloudflare.com/accelerated- mobile/](https://blog.cloudflare.com/accelerated-mobile/)

[1] [https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml](https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml)

<comment><USER27> here's the idea: give pages amp ratings purely based on full-load page-speed. amp pages get it, vanilla hackernews gets it too.

<comment><USER26> IIRC Google already does this. But it doesn't solve the same problem as AMP does.

With your solution, site A can load at 2s and site B at 3s, and site A will win. With AMP, sites A and B can both load in 200ms by easily integrating with an open standard.

Also: all this talk of "lock-in" and "centralization". With the approach you proposed, the publisher with the most money to spend on dev resources wins the highest search ranking. Isn't that counter to decentralization? Isn't an open, simple standard like AMP a better solution (though not a perfect one)?

What I'd like to hear from an AMP critic is: how can we achieve what AMP achieves--lightning-fast speeds that users love--without the "evil" AMP approach?

<comment><USER27> really? cause I don't see any discrete indicator that this page loads blazing fast. just rankings.

meanwhile, people itt are claiming that they deliberately seek out the little thunderbolt as proof of quality. why can't the little thunderbolt be awarded to HackerNews too, even outside the AMP ecosystem?

<comment><USER26> That's a fair argument. Since this page loads as fast as AMP it should get the same nice thunder bolt.

But that's different from the argument being made in the article, which is that AMP as a performance booster is "bad" because it "breaks links".

<comment><USER27> well, I'm no genius, this surely came up at Google. the real question you should be asking is why Google didn't do it this way.

This is what a lot of people are worried about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> AMP has been a blatant power-play from square-one. It's nice to see it being called out on a site as prominent as Miessler's.

</comment><comment><USER29> Cloudflare is doing this AMP crap too. If a cloudflare user enables AMP on his site then links from their domain to yours will trigger a visit of Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Cloudflare-AMP/1.0; +[https://amp.cloudflare.com/bot](https://amp.cloudflare.com/bot)) AppleWebKit/534.34" which then mirrors the content from your domain and re- hosts it on Cloudflare servers.

Then whenever someone goes to the Cloudflare user's website and clicks a link to your website they'll instead be fed a version of the page from Cloudflare and you'll never see that traffic.

And since you (or me, in this case) don't have a Cloudflare account you can't get any response from Cloudflare support to get them to stop re-hosting and serving your content from their servers.

<comment><USER30> Requests from non-user accounts do still get responses, just not quickly. You may have more luck with Twitter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I remember when Google had a really awesome thing that provided great content experiences: It was called Google Reader. I wish they would take some of the energy they are using trying to force AMP down everyone's throats and just re- launch Reader.

<comment><USER32> And the beautiful thing is, RSS feeds load quickly with no scripts, embedded ads, or tracking, and isn't tied to any proprietary cloud service provider.

More and more I am convinced Google convinces everyone to move away from things just so they can "reinvent" them down the line in a more proprietary fashion.

<comment><USER33> There totally are RSS feeds with ads and tracking.

<comment><USER32> I mean, sure, you can put like... text ads in an RSS feed, and I'm sure you can throw a tracking link as a link to click on in there. But unless you click into the page from the RSS feed, you aren't going to be picking up any stray cookies or have any scripts running on your computer. Browsing an RSS reader is very fast, and has very little bloat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> AMP is about lock-in. I'll just leave this here: [http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/08/choose-firefox-now-or- la...](http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/08/choose-firefox-now-or-later-you- wont.html)

</comment><comment><USER35> And another thing: it breaks the iOS reader feature, so it's frankly worse than the full fat page.

<comment><USER33> Reader is working fine here. Do you have an example where it's not?

<comment><USER35> You're right. Looks like it's been fixed at some point since I stopped clicking on AMP links.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> The reaction to AMP is a perfect example of when the things users/publishers care about differ greatly from developers. Users don't care about being on the publisher's site vs. Google's but do really care that that their low-to-medium end phone from 2014 can load the article in <5 seconds on a slow 3G connection. Publishers care that all of their tracking and ads are working properly.

</comment><comment><USER37> AMP specifications allow for other cache servers, of which CloudFlare[0] has recently implemented one. You could implement your own if you like.

AMP also specifies that the canonical page URL should be used when sharing, though the cached URL is currently what's shown in the browser. Their last developer update[1] said they're working to address this, however for all relevant purposes Google's own systems already currently consider AMP traffic and results to be attributed to the original source.

[0] [http://www.businessinsider.com/cloudflare-adopts-google- amp-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/cloudflare-adopts-google-amp-2017-1)

[1] [https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/why-amp-caches- exis...](https://amphtml.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/why-amp-caches-exist/)

> Google amends its cached AMP search results with Schema.org and OpenGraph > metadata, so posting the link to any platform that honors these should > result in the canonical URL being shared.

<comment><USER5> There is a decent amount of documentation about how the AMP cache works here:

[https://developers.google.com/amp/cache/overview](https://developers.google.com/amp/cache/overview)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I feel sometimes the web is going in circles.

A) First we had simple web pages B) Then people want to do fancy stuff on it. It became slower C) Back to A

Instead of going back to "A", it seems like there new are ideas are coming out (like AMP) but in the end, I really wish we would just go back to "A". HTML is HTML.

<comment><USER39> The company who is selling you the B+ package (ads, tracking) now reinvented A to leave the same + "features" intact.

</comment></comment><comment> amiga-workbench AMP is exactly what our industry deserves for doing such an awful job in regards to performance for so long.

</comment><comment><USER40> Just adblock and you will get a fast browsing experience. The biggest problem is not web development, but the advertising framework that is installed nowadays.

</comment><comment><USER41> There is a lot of hostility lately toward AMP it seems like. I personally really enjoy it and have found myself now choosing AMP articles over non- article because I know the mobile experience won't suck.

One thing I noticed in the author's post: The author mentions that "The content loads off of Google's own server, not from the website itself." I don't think that is correct unless you use choose to use the AMP-cache. For example, if you

        curl https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/23/donald-trump-first-orders-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp

You get back the content such as "Nancy Pelosi, Democratic..."

</comment><comment><USER42> AMP is a terrible idea. HTML is already very fast, if it's just kept lean and clean.

Creating a new fork of HTML only means less resources for publishers to spend on their existing sites, creating an ever-increasing divergence in experience. Google already had a great way to enforce better performance by taking it into account for search rankings - which it already uses as we've seen just a few days ago to discourage popup modals.

Another issue is that Google's adtech software is the most popular across the web and one of the primary reasons ads are slow in the first place. They've made improvements to speed up ads but they again hold an incredible amount of leverage to force better practices like smaller assets, less JS, async loading, https, no flash, etc and yet still havent don't anything about it.

It seems like AMP was some small side project that's easy to praise and get attention without actually fixing any of the root causes for the web cruft issue, ultimately hurting everyone in the long run.

</comment><comment><USER43> This is probably the 5th article on amp in the last few days but its already a reality so it would perhaps have helped if this intense focus was put much earlier.

A large number of mainstream sites are already on amp. The rest will inevitably be forced to follow. It's done.

It's a clear abuse of power by Google which would ideally be illegal given its near monopoly search position. Trading convenience for a lock-in is an extremely poor tradeoff in the long run and its a miracle no legal action is in the offing. This is the negative outcome of capitalism, concentration of power which inevitably gets abused.

</comment><comment><USER44> When i got a Nexus One way back when, it had a news app that preloaded the news with 4-8 paragraphs of plain text and a single photograph. It was great, I could catch up on the news while I was standing in a checkout line or similar short time-wasting situation. AMP gets somewhat back towards that, but it's still slow and unresponsive by comparison.

Google doesn't get news. The people who work on google News clearly don't consume it, barring the unlikely possibility that they're masochists who enjoy making everyday tools work more and more poorly.

</comment><comment><USER45> The other problem with amp is that it's really hard to share an artical.

I was reading one on google news and I wanted to share it with you guys but I couldn't figure out how to get a URL for the story.

</comment><comment><USER46> I have been suffering with AMP. try to share a link to an article and you current url is an AMP url. if the site didn't make a hard link in the post title, you are gonna have a bad time.

</comment><comment><USER47> Just like we have made silos on the mobile market, the internet will slowly get it's own silos. For people to value decentralization, they need to be shown direct and observable value. Just taking a moral/ethical stand is not enough. This is the case with anything and not just technology. The cars and the phones we use probably enslave chinese and kill polar bears.. but for all what the general population cares those things don't exist/happen. This comes down to human nature.

</comment><comment><USER48> It is one of the most annoying things to use, and might actually get me to switch my default search engine. I often search for stuff where the results come up on Reddit. I want to see the comments, but AMP helpfully hides all replies, and only shows like the top 5-10 comments. This is useless. So now instead of getting to the page I want right away, I have to scroll down to the button that says "see more comments". WTF?

<comment><USER49> If you use DuckDuckGo you can include "g!" in a search to Google it instead (except in a way that does not return AMP results).

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> AMP is probably good for web users. However, I believe that AMP goes against the free and distributed spirit of the web.

I am somewhat a Google fan, happily paying for music, tv shows, movies, and use the Google cloud platform. I also get some value from Facebook.

That said, I think that Google and Facebook are going to eventually badly damage the web, or at least the web that I love.

</comment><comment><USER51> Google started stealing content a long time ago on their search page... sometime displaying almost whole pages of content as the first "search result" so that the user doesn't even need to visit the source.

<comment><USER52> Does it count as stealing if websites opt into it?

<comment><USER39> Some call it "SEO optimization" I call it extortion because they'll get better ranks and a "carousell".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> This is a classic embrace, extend, extinguish.

</comment><comment><USER54> We need tools to help developers build fast websites. If all websites were as fast as AMP and Instant Articles, these platforms would become obsolete. It is in our hands as developers to take back control and make the web as decentralised as possible.

</comment><comment><USER55> AMP is not good thing says the guy making money off ads on his personal website and wants the ability to track users.

What about the value of seconds amd bandwidth saved for millions of people who get pages a bit faster due to a project like AMP?

</comment><comment><USER56> Can't Google just penalize slower-than-necessary pages in their search results?

</comment><comment><USER57> It doesn't seem like the author says _why_ they think it's bad that Google stores articles on its own servers, just that everyone should know already. Not very convincing.

</comment><comment><USER58> I don't think this post really articulated any concrete reasons why AMP is good or bad. It just said it is.

<comment><USER59> I saw several.

1\. Single point of failure/control 2\. It's a retraction from the web's inherent uhhh 'webby' nature where you can link to any content. 3\. Google wants to become a 'toll booth' on the internet where it inserts itself between users and content.

As an aside, I think people do sense a bit of hypocrisy from a lot of "benevolent" companies like Google. They're all open and standards-y when its about commoditizing a sector in which they don't have any direct financial interest. But they're fiercely closed and proprietary when it serves their interests.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> I hate AMP because I can't bookmark nor email the URL to someone unless

</comment><comment><USER61> While the article is correct that there's a big conflict of interest emerging in terms of privacy, it will be exactly like the reaction we've had to all other news of violations on the internet. We've got people with remote controlled submarines siphoning data from the pipes. Yet no outright revolt. People just aren't able to fathom the compromises without the technical framework that most HN'ers have to be able to catch these things in the app.

I'm sure 16 years ago we argued that Google eating up search market would be bad for consumers. People gladly voted Google while ditching Yahoo, Altavista, and other search engines for Google. It will be the same case for AMP or PWAMPs (Progressive Web App + AMP), they are here to stay.

So yes, while you can put a sticker with "AMP? Not in my backyard" on your laptop, but the vast majority of consumers _simply don 't care_.

We are all self serving bunch. Unless more is done other than writing articles and sharing, the status quo will be whatever the unchallenged decides it will be, with the money and resources to see to it. The rest of us can only vote with our money.

The internet is not a democracy after all unless we have some type of mesh networking using our mobile phones, is coupled to governments and their willingness to keep the underweater fibre cables. Creating our own satellite mesh network is obviously out of the question as well.

</comment><comment><USER62> Strangely I don't see any amp pages if I search within the Google app in Android but see them if search from Chrome. Does anyone know why is this difference? How can I restore amp pages while searching from Google app?

</comment><comment><USER63> > The content loads off of Google's own server, not from the website itself.

It seems the author isn't familiar with how CDNs work, how they've been around for many years and how they serve most of the data on the internet.

When you browse YT, the data most likely isn't being served by Google directly, but by a Google-provided rack on your local ISP.

When you browse a newspaper website, it is most likely coming out of an Akamai or some other CDN's server in your local ISP. Akamai by itself serves about 30Tbps of local traffic around the world.

And before these massive CDNs emerged, small ISPs would use caching solutions for static content (most of the web back then).

So we've all been loading content from 3rd party servers for more than a decade, not from the website itself. The internet as it is today is only sustainable because of CDNs.

<comment><USER59> IMHO, the quoted statement doesn't necessarily preclude CDNs. I think you're reading too much into the phrasing, which like you suggested, is a laypersons view of the internet. To me, it is instantly obvious what the author meant. The question is who controls the platform. For e.g. Are you in control if Google chooses to datamine your readers, or if in the future Google is free to show "suggested" content which is not your own, etc, etc.

<comment><USER63> > "Are you in control if Google chooses to datamine your readers, or if in the > future Google is free to show "suggested" content which is not your own, > etc, etc."

Just don't use Google's CDN then, use someone else's, like Cloudflare or Bing.</comment></comment></comment>


Randomness in game design: Blight or Bane? (2009) - <AUTHOR> http://playthisthing.com/randomness-blight-or-bane

<comment><USER2> > Horse racing bookmakers use what's called a parimutuel system of betting.

Minor nitpick, that's not true of the UK (and other places). Bettors there don't like parimutuel betting.</comment>


Ask HN: What is a hiring freeze and how does it help consultants? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> A hiring freeze is when a company is no longer hiring fulltime employees. This is beneficial to consultants because if the company needs more manpower they will hire contractors instead.</comment>


Blockbuster Video Games Mint Millions While Grunts Get Exploited - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-27/video-game-contractors-receive-poor-treatment-and-low-salary-as-business-booms <comment><USER2> Jason Schreier is perhaps the only real journalist in the video games space, where most gaming sites are merely conduits to deliver PR from game publishers. He has leveraged a large network of insider contacts to put together a lot of reporting on industry labor practices, and it has been a bit of a breakout for him. I assume it earns him even more insider contacts.

Nintendo's decision to sell in the toy isle all those years ago has left this child's play image of video games permanently ingrained in our psyche, which means there still isn't grown-up reporting on an absolutely massive industry.

We need more reporting on employee treatment. We need more reporting on bait- and-switch releases, gambling mechanics, "live service" money pumps, and all the rest of the greedy, customer-hostile bullshit they practice on a daily basis.</comment>


Ask HN: Most people find browser tabs confusing? - <AUTHOR> I made a visual database app and one thing a lot of my users find frustrating is that each table opens up in it's own tab. They say things like they don't know how to go back to where they opened the table from (and would do things like hit the back button on a freshly opened tab). Some were lost when I would ask them to do things like "close the current tab". And so on.<p>Browser tabs are so much more versatile than re-implemented tabbing within my app and I figured that since many people use Google Sheets/Docs/etc which also does this, then a tab per document/table/whatever would be familiar. Maybe I'm wrong. What does HN think? <comment><USER2> Some random points, hard to say in detail:

Browsers tend to not automatically open new tabs though, but only if you explicitly do something to cause it.

Maybe many people do not use multiple tabs within one site/app, and that doesn't translate (There's probably some research out there on how people use browsers in practice)

Your app might look and feel too different from a browser or other tabbed environment. Does it clearly communicate where a new tab is opened, that you can't go back on it, ...?

<comment><AUTHOR> _Maybe many people do not use multiple tabs within one site /app_

I'm thinking this may be the crux of the problem. I figured since G Suite did it, it would be common enough and fine, but maybe not.

 _There 's probably some research out there_

Everything I found was about how some people never close tabs and how to deal with hundreds of open tabs. This is also part of what led to me assume that people are comfortable with the concept of tabs.

 _look and feel too different from a browser or other tabbed environment. Does it clearly communicate where a new tab is opened_

I'm personally biased towards this answer. Maybe it works for G Suite because people understand "documents" as being self-contained in separate screens and that does not intuitively carry over to other things. Leveraging browser tabs is so powerful and useful, so I'm hoping some extra communication effort will solve it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> _What does HN think?_

Don't matter. Listen to your users. Try not to argue with them. Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> We don't have many users yet (private alpha), so I'm trying to get ahead of the ball. I'm wondering if this is a broader trend other people have seen or maybe a symptom of something else. Does it work for Google Sheets/Docs/etc because people are used to relating "documents" to separate windows and that is unlikely to carry over to "database tables"? These are hard answers to get up front from users, but maybe other developers/startups have insight.

At the end of the day, I will absolutely listen to our users (and definitely not argue with them). Always a great reminder, though, thank you!

<comment><USER3> The average computer user has trouble saving documents in folders. It doesn't matter because it's not a critical business function.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I say don't make each thing open in its own tab, but use a standard link, so that if a user enters the command to open in a new tab (for example, middle- click on Firefox) then it will work correctly.

<comment><AUTHOR> In my case, users need to switch back and forth between multiple tables often (maintaining things like state and scroll position). So if I don't leverage browser tabs, I'll have to implement tabbing within the app. Of course, users could still choose to open tables in new tabs also, but that would result in two levels of tabbing.

<comment><USER5> Can you create some variation in the tab icons so it's easier to find the one you were just looking at? I've never seen this done but I do often have the problem of having, say, 10 Google Docs open in a full tab bar and not knowing which is which.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really like this idea. I already planned on enabling users to upload thumbnails images for the "book cover" of a table. I could make each tab's favicon based on that.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


For Migrants, New Land of Opportunity Is Mexico - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/americas/for-migrants-new-land-of-opportunity-is-mexico.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0 <comment><USER3> _" more Americans have been added to the population of Mexico over the past few years than Mexicans have been added to the population of the United States, according to government data in both nations."_

That is priceless. I hope the South Park writing team are taking note. They could do a follow up to "The Last of the Meheecans".

<comment><USER4> This refers to Americans who are _documented_ foreigners in Mexico. Does the number of Mexicans added to the US population include undocumented immigrants, or only documented ones?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I read this piece from the Onion years ago and it stuck in my memory because I found it so funny at the time: [http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal- immigrants-returnin...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal-immigrants- returning-to-mexico-for-america,1951/)

Now it's not even just Mexicans moving there, but Americans as well! A case of life imitating comedy and going one step further.

</comment><comment><USER6> I lived in Mexico for two years after the crisis of 2008. It was already obvious then that the median college graduate in Mexico had a higher material quality of life than the average American college grad.

The wages are lower but the Mexican cost of living hasn't been bid up by severe development restrictions, badly planned infrastructure, and finance industry corruption. Middle class life south of the border is more comfortable than in the USA because prices for housing and transportation aren't driven by status bidding wars for the limited set of safe, quality locations and good school districts.

Unskilled workers still make a lot more in the USA and have a richer life there, but the smaller Mexican educated class is maintaining its quality of life as it expands. It already matches the wealth north of the Rio Grande.

\---

I should add an example.

\---

For example, imagine we're comparing LA to Guadalajara or SF to Mexico City. With a degree from a good school, a civil servant might start out making $750 a month in Mexico or $2200 a month in the USA, after taxes. A decent small shared apartment will cost $200 in Mexico or $800 in the USA. The American will need a car for at least $400 a month, but cheap, efficient, and somewhat comfortable public transit is available all over Mexico. Electronics and internet cost the same. Splurging out at a nice restaurant can be done for $15 a person in Mexico that compares to $60 a person in LA or SF. The Mexican will graduate without any student loan debt while the American is paying every month, so that nice restaurant will be out of reach in El Norte, anyway.

A fairly well paid engineer in Mexico might be making $2200 a month while his American equivalent makes $7000, after taxes (think $100k-$140k US salary) . A nice apartment in a fancy part of Mexico City suitable for a family might cost $800 a month, but development policy has kept single family homes equally affordable in central areas, too. Nice apartments in SF cost $3500 a month and houses cost much more. Most professionals in urban Mexico don't need or want a car, but in SF the engineer and his spouse will both spend so much time in one that they'll need two nice cars and dedicated parking. Okay, I already can't figure out how the US person can afford to have a family at all; maybe that's why they don't. The Mexican engineer will be living pretty and thinking about a third kid. And Gosh help the American if he ever needs health care.

On the other hand, the minimum wage for unskilled labor in Mexico is about $5 a day.

<comment><USER7> How is the crime/education in Mexico City? Is it comparable?

<comment><USER6> Mexico City has crime rates comparable to California cities but higher than NYC. It's considered the second safest metro in the country, after Mérida. The drug traffic violence worries everyone but is mostly confined to border states.

Education is complicated and very different from the USA. The local public elementary school that I walked past every day seemed to have literate students and attentive teachers working sincerely on education but there's a scandal of unqualified teacher hiring and international test results from rural areas are depressing. The neighborhood I lived in was considered activist and organized so it may have been unrepresentative. The former leader of the national teacher's union went to jail this year and the new president is working on reforms.

Free guaranteed schooling ends after eight years. Competitive testing puts a really large number of students into many different large but good public high schools with serious academic focus. Those who don't pass or who want more personalized or specialized attention can find private high schools ranging from cheap to Manhattan prices.

Several nearly free universities comparable to good top-tier and second tier state schools in the USA also take many students based on exams. More expensive private schools are also available.

So if you train your kids right and play the game, quality education is very cheap. If you let them screw up and get behind, it may cost a lot to get them back on track.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think this is probably a part of a larger trend in migration. I lived in 2 countries as a child and 2 more as an adult. I'm 30. I think around 70% of of my coworkers have lived in more than one country. Basically, migration isn't an extreme decision anymore. Your lot doesn't need to be bad or hopeless to migrate from Germany to Spain or spend a couple of years on Seol. The difference in earnings/lifestyle doesn't need to be an order of magnitude. A marginal improvement can be enough to move some people.

Wealthy modern states rely quite heavily on the middle class for taxes. Within the middle class you'll find groups (eg single, childless, urban Europeans) that pay very high taxes while consuming very few services. They earn via highly taxable salaries. Most of their earnings are consumed and thus subject to GST/VAT and excise taxes. They also play the real estate, credit card, car financing, etc games that funnel money into finical institutions & industries which are so important to the political-economic goals politicians take on.

The net result of this is that for a middle class household in a wealthy country, wealth is somewhat of an illusion. Imagine a 30 year old unmarried couple earning €100k - well off on paper. They can expect to pay about €30-35k (depending on how the salary is split) in income tax. €1-€2k on flat taxes (car tax, tv tax, local tax). Then 25-40% of the remaining on a mortgage - <USER2> €21k. That leaves 40k-50k per year for taxable spending. Most of this will be taxed at 23%. Some stuff like petrol, alcohol, tobacco & cars will be taxed at a higher rate.

These people are still well off. It's hard not to be with to above average salaries and no expensive children. But are not near as well off as their earnings suggest they should be.

In some Eurpoean countries those taxes prop up a wasteful government. In some, they are paying for recent bank bailouts. In some, they are paying for an expensive legacy welfare state (with corresponding welfare class). In some, they are paying for past infrastructure investments. The best run countries (Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavian countries) do a good job of funneling those revenues to the same people at different stages of their life. Only a portion of most people's life is spent in this highly taxable, no need for government services state. But even in these cases it might make sense for a self interested individual to study at the countries expense and then earn outside of their tax jurisdictions.

If middle class migration and 'shopping around' for high quality of living becomes more prevalent, the tax revenue implications are enormous.

</comment><comment><USER9> Texas is another one. Created more jobs than all 49 other states combined.

Actually, majority of other state lost jobs.

<comment><USER10> Unfortunately, the majority of those jobs are minimum wage jobs: [http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/12/news/economy/perry_texas_job...](http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/12/news/economy/perry_texas_jobs/index.htm)

<comment><USER11> Don't forget that those minimum-wage workers pay one of the highest state/local tax rates in the nation for their income level: Texas taxes its poorest quintile 12.6% of their meagre incomes through its various taxes, the 6th-highest rate in the nation. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/09/21/th...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/09/21/the- state-that-taxes-the-poor-the-most-is-a-blue-one)

<comment><USER12> That's why I've never been a fan of sales taxes over income taxes. Texas, and the other states listed in that piece, don't have an income tax but instead rely on a sales tax and excise taxes (alcohol, tobacco, and gas) for revenues, which are all very regressive.

<comment><USER13> Just add a basic income, and it balances out, again.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Apple has plans to use hydrogen in batteries allowing iPhones and iPods - <AUTHOR> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078499/Apple-plans-use-hydrogen-batteries-allowing-iPhones-iPods-hold-charge-WEEKS.html?ITO=socialnet-twitter-mailonline <comment><USER2> Will I be able to to fill my own generated hydrogen, or I'll have to by it prepackaged from Apple?</comment>


Income Inequality: Empirical View - <AUTHOR> http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/income-inequality/ <comment><USER2> Why the focus on inequality as if this is the core problem as against issues relating to the absolute quality of people's lives?

<comment><USER3> People's happiness depends more on the relative quality of their lives compared to others, not absolute quality. It's a basic property of humanity.

<comment><USER4> >People's happiness depends more on the relative quality of their lives compared to others. It's a basic property of humanity.

This used to be called "envy", and seen as a vice to be avoided. Interestingly, the description of it as a "basic property" of humanity is in a way similar to symbolic interpretations of the Christian notion of "original sin" (Christians/theologians please correct me if I'm wrong).

<comment><USER5> > This used to be called "envy", and seen as a vice to be avoided.

There are two sides to the coin. What you call "envy" has a very good (evolutionary) reason for its existence.

Take a look at ultimatum game ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game)). If people didn't have capacity to deny unfair splits, even though they seem irrational, then they would be worse off.

I posit that denying unfair splits in ultimatum game is _envy_. Think about it, envy is the reason to do it - the other party doesn't deserve the bigger split, so let's kill it for both! The similar game can be for instance used as a model of worker's strike against a capitalist.

(I think in fact most people consider envy a vice only where it's extreme or there are other circumstances that make it unfair. But in general it's just an expression of longing for fairness.)

<comment><USER4> >What you call "envy" has a very good (evolutionary) reason for its existence

An evolutionary reason isn't _necessarily_ a good reason, unless the definition of good is "helping propagate one's genes". Evolution doesn't select for "living a happy/contented life".

<comment><USER5> You're correct (that's why on second thought I put "evolutionary" in parens), but I also argue that ability to deny bad offers (or revolt or whatever are the various forms this takes) is a good trait for people to have. Otherwise you are getting uncomfortably close to a Brave New World of always obedient individuals.

<comment><USER4> >but I also argue that ability to deny bad offers (or revolt or whatever are the various forms this takes) is a good trait for people to have

This trait is only a subset of what's normally considered "envy". Not all of envy has an apparent use like that. E.g. if Joe feels bad because Neighbour Bob's house is 1030 square feet while Joe's house is only 1020 square feet, this doesn't really help anything, it just makes Joe unnecessarily miserable.

<comment><USER5> It's not really a subset, it's more like an intersection.

But to your example - I will be long time happy with social (in)equality before we get to 1% differences in income. I think in your example Joe absolutely deserves the unhappiness he has.

Meanwhile in reality, when I suggest that maybe there should be a limit of personal income/wealth like around 100x the average (which is amount of money I can't imagine reasonable person would know how to spend), I get shooed as crazy pinko full of envy. Yet, is that really envy, or is it just longing for fairness as in the ultimatum game example?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The chart at the bottom seems misleading.

And I don't understand the justification for doing the chart by every $5,000 and then doing huge brackets at the end.

Why shouldn't income distribute logarithmically instead of linearly?</comment>


Google IT Support Professional Certificate - <AUTHOR> https://blog.google/topics/grow-with-google/it-support-professional-certificate/ <comment><USER2> I'm not convinced of the quality of this course material. I thought I could try it out, see if I could fill some gaps in my knowledge. I tried out some of the quizzes and they were just bad. Course 1, week 2, for example, asks you to match items to where they go on a motherboard. This quiz is flatly wrong. It asks you to match a PSU to the rear Ethernet port, and a SATA cable to an IDE port. Being so obviously wrong about something so basic gives me serious concerns about everything else. I quickly cancelled the free trial.

<comment><USER3> I went through the first several weeks of course 1, and you are spot on. The quiz in week 2 is absolutely wrong (did anyone audit this?). I skimmed through the first 6 weeks and even for a beginner course, this is way too dumbed down.

I checked out some of the material a bit further through the course as well, and I cannot recommend it for anyone serious about the profession. It looks good on the surface (reading the course summaries and the objectives), but the quality just isn't there.

<comment><USER4> I was also a bit surprised by the simplicity of course 1, but then remembered that the course as a whole is designed for folks with no experience. Looking through the descriptions for the other courses (the actual material isn't out yet) I'm hopeful they will have the level of depth I think we're all expecting.

<comment><USER5> Yeah you definitely want to keep in mind that this cert, and especially Course 1, has to be accessible to anyone. So it's building a foundation of common knowledge for the other courses which absolutely go into much more details.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> IT Support will replace factories in Middle America. These are jobs that are 1)Trained quickly 2) Geographically distributed 3) Cheap. IT Support needs to be onsite for hardware, but any Software can be distributed in smaller cities or work from home. Maybe Google will have a real help line one day?

It is also a great path into technology for those who did get CS degrees from a top school.

Side note: In the video, all the Google VPs and Leads were sitting in bright offices. The IT staff sat in dark rooms with little or no windows. @2min mark, the IT staff look to be in a dungeon at night.

<comment><USER7> IT is not CS. Not even similar.

<comment><USER8> It seems to be a common confusion in the EU. A lot of people refer to CS as IT where I live.

<comment><USER9> Here in Australia, most people just think "literally anything to do with computers = IT". So when I talked to course counselors they said if I wanted to be a programmer, I had to do an IT degree. Not even close.

Software engineering, or maybe CS, is what I wanted. I hadn't even heard the phrase "computer science" when I started university. The total incompetence of the course counselors at the core function of their job contributed to putting me on a path that eventually lead to the ruin of my life.

I did a degree that claimed to contain software development, but was in the IT category - I never learned of the concept of version control (at all), how to use makefiles, exception blocks, performance profiling, or a bunch of other practical stuff.

Now I'm wasting away in an IT support job. I can't blame everything on that, and most of the responsibility for where I am today is on me - especially for not turning it around better after I realised my mistakes, but I feel like the confusion between "IT", "CS", and "Software engineering" definitely kickstarted a path that wasted alot of my most valuable learning time.

Don't trust course counselors - or other people in general.

<comment><USER10> The school could have done you better, but don't externalize your problems. Most schools' CS degrees won't teach you version control, makefiles or any of that practical stuff. You learn it for fun, incidentally, or on the job.

I was once in your shoes. Same background, same regrettable life choices, same potential future.

If you want to develop, do it. Start by looking at the crap software your company likely pays hundreds of thousands of dollars for and think about how you could do it better. Start by actually trying to supplant it with something of your own creation.

I have a generic degree. All those "practical" things you lament missing out on, I learned by just doing it. But I never had cause to learn what big-o notation was or how to navigate a b-tree...you know, that non-practical knowledge a CS degree would have endowed me with. The lack of such has only stopped me from working at Google. Plenty of other shops are not in the business of recruiting only those who can write the freshest sorting algorithms.

Just don't spend the rest of your life in a job you hate, condemning yourself for being put upon. It takes little effort to invoke large changes.

<comment><USER11> My CS degree didn't even teach any specific languages. Pretty much every course used a different language. I'll date myself here but I used PL/1, Pascal, Modula 2, C, Scheme, assembly, and maybe a couple of others. None were the explicit focus of the class. The programming language was incidental, students were expected to learn it on their own. And my first job used none of those languages. My next job didn't either. In fact I've never used any of the languages I used in school on the job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I got started at Google years ago in the IT support department. I was an atypical case because I have a CS degree from an prestigious university, but at the time, I was caught in the fallout of the dot-com bust, so I needed any job I could get.

I eventually interviewed successfully to become a SWE, but my experiences working with the broader swath of people (not just CS/CE grads from elite programs) in IT really opened my perspective on technology, products, and the diverse set of people and talents it takes to make an organization function.

I have no connection to this certificate effort (I moved into development eons ago), but I think that the opportunity for exposure to a technology profession that this program offers could be the foot in the door for a lot of people, regardless of their background.

<comment><USER3> It's hard to find anything about working at Google that isn't geared towards SWE. What job title(s) would someone working for Google in IT support hold? Is the interview process as grueling as the SWE positions, or is Google looking for generalists?

<comment><USER5> In IT, it depends on the level, but early on we look for generalists, and then expect people to specialize over time. The interview process is similar to SWE, but for new grads the technical bar is lower. The title is Corporate Operations Engineer, unless you're in our IT Residency Program, in which case it's IT Resident.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> >> the average starting salary is $52,000 according to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics

That's a decent salary for a Windows or network admin in middle America. Helpdesk positions are lucky to pay half that.

<comment><USER14> We're not located in the valley and our help desk positions are within 10% of that number.

I just shared this course with our support team. They're great at product support and know it inside and out, but can be lacking on the IT side which is where I generally have to get involved.

This course looks promising.

<comment><USER15> No, but Boulder CO is still one of the few cities in the country growing economically(I assume that's where you are from your profile). There are many larger cities in the Midwest declining, and it's here that it's nearly impossible to get a low-paying "entry-level" position without a degree and several years of experience. And they certainly don't pay $50k.

<comment><USER14> That's a fair point. I guess I didn't realize how bad it was in the Midwest. That's quite unfortunate.

<comment><USER16> It's not like that everywhere. Yeah if your city is imploding, you're going to struggle to find any job, which is of course one reason why the city is declining and wages are stagnating. But $50k in Boulder isn't $50k in Flint or Gary, so comparing salaries like that is kind of ridiculous.

More than half a decade ago I was hired out of an internship at a fairly average company doing fairly average work in a mid-sized Midwestern city making $51k/yr. I was 23 and the internship was the only IT experience I had.

So take an anecdote as an anecdote... it's not always true across the board.

<comment><USER17> I understand the sentiment you're going for, but Gary has a commuter train that goes to downtown Chicago in less than an hour. With free (working) wifi. I've known some guys that have worked in high paying IT jobs in Chicago while renting a house on the beach in the part of Gary that is surrounded by National Park Service land (Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore). Rent and a monthly train pass was around $500 per person. They rarely locked their doors and one of the guys got his car broken into once in the 3 years they did it, which would probably be considered decent in SF. Their typical weekend involved dragging a cooler full of beer and a volleyball net onto the sand.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> In Germany, this is called "Fachinformatiker für Systemintegration" and is an official professional apprenticeship for which you do not pay money, but GET PAID as you are spending 30% of your time in school and 70% applying your knowledge in a company. If you have 4.5 years of experience on-the-job in IT you can just apply for the final exams without going to school.

<comment><USER19> Your boss can still pay for your education if you take it from Google.

<comment><USER20> But then you have a Google degree and not one certified by the government. Google is reputable now but I wouldn't be so sure if the Google degree is worth much in 20 years.

<comment><USER21> This is a certificate, not a degree, which is a fairly important distinction. The goal is to teach a set of technical skills that allow you to get a specific job. In 20 years, your experience will count much more than either a degree or certificate.

<comment><USER22> Your experience will count much more than a degree or certificate in far fewer than 20 years. It's probably more in the 2-5 year range, depending on your degree and experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Given the current state of support Google itself offers, there is more than a bit of irony here.

<comment><USER5> Disclosure: I am one of the instructors for this course and went through Google's IT Residency Program.

It's unfortunate that the company's external support has such a bad reputation. But our internal support team is actually highly regarded and loved by employees. The training here is very much based on the training we provide to our internal hires.

<comment><USER24> As someone who works for a biggish software company - internal IT is hugely important when it comes to employee satisfaction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Between very-very large scale integration, walled-garden consumer devices, and the everyday nature of distributed computing, IT is a dead man walking.

When each compute node becomes essentially a disposable quantity, what does that do to the value of the people who service them?

People will say "What about networking?", as though locality makes a difference here. I've seen so many local network deployments where a guy in India configures the switch and firewall, then mails them over here and pays a local guy who is practically illiterate $75 for half a day's work to mount and plug everything in. They may have to go back-and-forth for several attempts since local guy is a hot mess. Even so, at $75 a pop the economics still work out.

<comment><USER26> I've seen that at big brand name. The network was dead multiple times every week for entire hours. It's so terrible.

There would be a dozen contractors in the room. They discuss who works on what in the morning, then the network is down and noone can do anything for half the day.

<comment><USER25> Most megacorps don't seem to care. IT by goon squad has been standard operating procedure for almost a decade now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The arrogance here is appalling. "Here is a new cert that nobody in the industry is familiar with, but it will qualify you for an entry-level role pretty much anywhere, because we're Google and we said so."

<comment><USER28> I'll believe it when Google starts hiring grads of this programme, with no other qualifications or experience

<comment><USER29> We'll have to see if they start hiring their helpdesk/techstop from this programme. If they hire from this programme, then i think it should be a good sign of trustworthiness.

<comment><USER30> They already hire from similar progams.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Is this similar to other courses but just branded as Google or is there Google specific knowledge? Do you get a chance to work for Google after taking this course?

</comment><comment><USER32> This certificate is geared towards CS, Mathematics, or Engineering students or enthusiasts or self taught programmers and engineers. The job: Application Support Analyst, IT Analyst, Tech Support Analyst... You'll find the job descriptions on Indeed.com..... If you are currently an "IT major" you may learn some of this material as part of your major coursework. Otherwise, calling it "IT Support" would be very misleading for someone like me who has done Help Desk/Desktop/ Networking/System Administration/ Networking security for the past 13 years with MCSE, COMPTIA, and Cisco certifications and I'm giving someone advice as for as which path to follow.

Now with that said, a "job" consisting of these skillsets is more of a TIER III/IV in IT Support, but can serve as entry level experience for DevOps for CS or engineering functionaries (CS grads and self taught).Especially someone like me who already has technical IT experience and it is a requirement that I am versed in at least one scripting language and some automation scripts and tools.

My advice....this certificate was formulated as a gateway to DevOps, technical support, not "IT Support," in the traditional sense. You won't receive calls about not being able to retrieve emails, paystubs, lost files, identity management and access. However, if an internal company app or the companies software product is buggy, that's where you start. "Back-end IT Support" would be more accurate.

<comment><USER32> A better description using the OSI Model: This certificate is perfect for someone who works at the Application Layer or Layer 4 and above.....

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> As many here seems to doubt the market for this thing:

Less than 10 years ago I was hired to do a job that was 80% mindnumbingly boring. (Think copy and paste to Excel.)

I was paid well above the USD50' that is mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

There was a team of us with widely different background and I think only me and one other had degrees in IT.

One of my colleagues came straight from a job as taxi driver (got hired after talking to someone in the company while driving him to the airport).

In case anyone wonders: he turned out to be really good.

</comment><comment><USER34> It would be nice if Google can have a real customer support of its own first where you can reach a human at the end. I have been trying to get help on Google Voice issues that I have been having for months now, and the only help I have available is community driven "Google Support" forums.

<comment><USER35> If you have a business account with them you get a rep that you can actually speak to, just fyi, google has been improving business support vastly over the last few years. Everyone else though is relegated to those ms-support-esque forums.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Glad this is a thing. Waiting to see feedback, might dabble a little. But I have family who would be open to just about any suggestion (midwest+sw US). Lots of tight knit support groups that prevent the younger ones from relocating unless they have a handful of siblings or similar. They're bored out of their minds and without hope in some cases. I tried to get my brother into A+ type material as a way out of warehouse-type jobs, being that computers are how I made it anywhere. I understand those don't sound like great employees, but on the contrary, if it's a legitimately good option it could do wonders for their morale and they'd be loyal. So kudos to Google for getting started with this.

</comment><comment><USER37> How this certification program compares to CompTIA A+ ?

<comment><USER5> We based this on our internal training for our IT hires based on the gaps we found when we onboarded people over the last 7 years. We invested a lot in making the material practical and lab driven vs just rote memorization.

Disclosure: I worked on this program.

<comment><USER38> I am currently taking the course and I can tell you that for 50.00 it is well worth it. I have been in IT Support for 20+ years and can tell you that it is constantly changing and although I have a degree I did not learn the majority of the knowledge I have from college. We have had interns and hires that have certifications out the wazoo and 4-year degrees but do not know how to change a toner cartridge or could not describe how DNS and the internet works. I was super excited when the course went over DNS. Before I started this course about 3 weeks ago I was showing an employee how DNS works for an issue he ran into. I also like how the course went over Linux and windows, mac, etc. The course was not one sided like a lot, of courses, focusing specifically on the vendor. I also like how they have labs that have interaction. Any good training should have actual labs with hands-on experience. I personally think we have too many people that memorize brain dumps to pass but could not do the hands-on work. I did not run into a formatting issue with the things not matching up on the labs so I cannot attest to that. I do remember that they specifically say please take this on a desktop or laptop. It said something about not taking them on mobile devices or tablets. I also saw that sometimes when you put in an answer that if you left a hyphenated word out or only put the first part of the word it would now except the answer. That being said you can review the material as many times as you want and you can also retake the quizzes and assignments so there should be no reason for you to not pass unless you're just lazy. That being said, the course does not go over everything and nor should it. It is an entry-level course for 50.00 that you can do on your on time to further your education and career. Back in the day, CompTIA used to cost 50.00 but now it is 410.00. Most of the vendors have gouged on pricing in the last 20-30 years. Hats off to Google for trying to make a difference and not trying to charge people a gazillion dollars for it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I signed up for this course even though after a brief look it looks like more of an entry-level course than a full-blown IT specialist course (which is understanding considering the course delivery being web-based).

I've been writing code for over 15 years and have seen more than enough opportunity to expand my business into the IT side of things, a lot more than contract coding anyway. I've let these opportunities go by as I don't have any real qualifications although I reckon I could cobble enough together with my experience to get by.

That being said, if I get a cert' from this it might be the confidence to push my business further if nothing else.

</comment><comment><USER40> And in true Google style I expect them to slowly ignore it and then drop the program, leaving anyone who invested in it high and dry.

<comment><USER41> Unless they've figured out a way to attach a DRM policy to the knowledge you learn from taking a course, I don't think it's possible for them to leave anyone high and dry.

<comment><USER28> Some certs must be regularly renewed, e.g. ScrumMaster. If it's de-supported then the certs evaporate.

<comment><USER41> "Hey Doug, Got a minute? So the university where you learned Computer Science, well we just found out they recently closed their doors. Since they are no longer an accredited institution, nor do they even exist, we're going to have to let you go."

<comment><USER42> This may not cause you to lose your current position, but could be detrimental next time you are job hunting

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I wonder why they picked Coursera over Udacity or EdX.

EdX seems quite Microsoft heavy.

But Google has released a lot of material on Udacity, and they have other connections (Thrun).

Just curious.

<comment><USER44> Google just sponsored Web app developer and Android developer nanodegrees to thousands of people. [https://www.udacity.com/google- scholarships](https://www.udacity.com/google-scholarships) I guess they are giving big players like udacity and coursera even support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Glad to see the partnership with Coursera for it. Althought MOOCs haven't changed the world in the way they were hyped, I still think they have incredible promise for stuff like this or for stuff like Udacity's training of new frameworks like React or working with Android.

</comment><comment><USER46> I'm not truly sold on the merit of this program or that it will lead directly to a high paying job. I do know that there are very few employers who will consider this cert as a negative. At $50/month it could provide some with that first step to something more.

</comment><comment><USER47> Does anyone remember the movie "The Internship", in which all of interns were IT Support? It's really funny that that they portrayed them as IT Support.

</comment><comment><USER48> Will Google also partner, like Apple, with some of the community colleges in the US to deliver the training to populations that might need the additional help?

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm not convinced that there is demand for a large number of IT Support Professionals, or if there is, there's not enough of a demand for employers to hire outside of the few tech hubs of the country. I've held A+, Network+, Project+, Security+, and CCNA certifications for a while now in the third largest city in Missouri, yet the only positions that have been available to me have been low-wage temporary contract jobs.

</comment><comment><USER49> How the exams will be conducted for each course in this program?

</comment><comment><USER50> Now if only they'd open-source the REWS training pipeline.

</comment><comment><USER28> _There's no better example of a dynamic, fast-growing field than IT support_

Is this why IBM, DXC et al are laying off Western workers like it's going out of fashion and offshoring those jobs as fast as they possibly can?

<comment><USER11> You can't really offshore swapping out a defective network cable or replacing a hard drive. I haven't looked at how they define an "IT Support Professional" but I'm assuming it's not just answering a phone and following a decision tree and saying "I'm very sorry to hear that you are still experiencing a problem" before each step. Anyone can do that with almost no training.

<comment><USER51> Of course you can, enterprises are already starting to push "bring your own device". Even if you don't do that, you can still move to the thin client model where hardware failure just means asking the office manager to swap your device with a new one from the cupboard.

<comment><USER52> BYOD doesn't do away with the problem because the users don't know how to fix them themselves, so they'll still need someone, even if it's a tech at the mall rather than in their office.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> it support is where thought goes to die

</comment><comment><USER54> Ole udacity, the ITTech of 'learn on the web' sites.

Money would be better spent on a respectable certification like MCSE.

<comment><USER16> Wow the MCSE and this certification could not be any less comparable.

<comment><USER55> Yeah... that is like saying "Money is better spent getting a college degree in CS!"

Sure, they both might be true but they aren't all attainable for everyone.

<comment><USER54> They're both pretty much exams. The 'MCSE' or any other certification from Microsoft would be worth more and probably be cheaper than udacity. If your goal to have something to show to a potential employer, MCSE will hold alot more weight.

Udacity degrees, certifications or whatever they're called are GEDs of certifications and should be treated as such.

If you want an actual job where you will be respected at, don't go to udacity.

<comment><USER16> MCSE certs prepare you for a vastly different job than IT Support. Think CompTIA A+. IT Support and systems administration are different jobs and different certifications help out in different ways.

When I got my CompTIA Security+ in college, I got asked by interviewers why I got that and not the CISSP. The answer is, while the CISSP is a far more respected certification, the requirements and entry price are also far different. The CISSP is not an entry-level certification, it actually mandates a certain number of years in the industry.

MTA is entry-level. MCSA is entry level. MCSE is for established professionals, it is an expert-level certification, so of course it's more respected. The people taking it are already well-respected experts themselves.

The MTA is the Microsoft certification that's most comparable to this. Not MCSE.

<comment><USER56> I hope the MCSE has improved, because about 10% of the MCSEs I've met know next to nothing.

<comment><USER16> I mentioned the CISSP which has a similar problem... the requirements are X number of years in the security industry but 90% of the people I know with a CISSP are project managers.

The problem is boot camps. When you can pay $5k and have the answers drilled into your head for a week, of course anyone can pass.

<comment><USER32> Problem is you can't gain the experience without a CISSP, for the most part. You have to get lucky that you're either promoted or transferred to a security position. That needs to change at the entry level, so these folks can get the relavent experience. Then apply to take the ISC2 or CISSP....One does not necessarily have to obtain an MSCA or MCSE just to get a foot in the door. You are not applying for a sysadmin gig when starting out. At this point, A+, Net+, and ITIL are seen as the gatekeepers.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HackerNews: What information should a stealth startup put on their website? - <AUTHOR>

My partner and I are just starting off and we don't have a website yet. It's been a task that we've put on the back burner so that we could focus on building a prototype (not a web app), raising seed money, and talking to potential clients. We don't want to put too much information about our product online yet as we're in a very competitive industry and we want to make sure that when we bring our product to market there is nothing else like it.
So, my question is, what info should we put up on our website? All I can think of now would be to have a page for the founder bios and a "contact us" link.
Thanks! <comment><USER2> I believe it is helpful to provide, at a minimum, the general area being addressed "making hiring easier," "making photos more fun," or "making your bbq chicken taste better"-- there is no way anyone can deduce exactly what a company is doing from those above descriptions but they help make sure your sign-ups are actually relevant to your service.

Hipster might have seemed mysterious, but there were plenty of screenshots going around that explained exactly what their service provides. Plus, their sign-up landrush is uncommon.

</comment><comment><USER3> Put up a teaser page with some information that will pique curiosity so that you can start collecting emails. Then you will have good number of users ready to test the product by the time you are ready to launch the initial version.

</comment><comment><USER4> If you've decided on stealth, why would you have a website?

<comment><USER5> There's SEO benefits to having your content up for a length of time.

<comment><USER6> The only thing in a stealth instance that is aging is the domain name. You aren't really sharing that much content if in stealth. There may be some ancillary value from links from high value site talking your stuff up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Personally, I'd do exactly what Hipster has done:

<http://sanfrancisco.usehipster.com/>

Many other companies have done this too. Collect some emails, see how many people actually bite on your idea, even if they don't know what it is.</comment>


Ask HN: Building a secure laptop for sensitive work data - <AUTHOR>

Due to recent events at my work I now have a need for a secure laptop for sending and receiving sensitive data to clients. I'm going to buy a laptop for use when working on sensitive data but I need help on setting it up with the right tools and configuration.
I've read a couple articles and done some preliminary research so I have some ideas. I'm not interested in trying to use TAILS. Here's what I have so far:
- Debian OS - Tor Browser - PGP encryption of all outgoing files and emails - some kind of full-disk encryption (Truecrypt?)
I have two questions as well: 1. If I travel with the laptop and airport security asks for my password to unlock FDE, is there anyway to protect against being forced to give them the key?
2. How should I transfer files to and from the laptop? USB key? <comment><USER2> If it was me, I'd do it via a client-Hypervisor. Run a normal OS with full disk encryption, within that I would run a virtual machine which actually did the sensitive stuff.

When the virtual machine is powered down it can be configured so that any changes would be complete discarded. It also means that if your TOR browser got compromised, the VM would not actually know what its internet IP was (as it is routing through the virtual switch within the client-hypervisor).

Setting this up can be as simple or as complex as you wish. For the simplest installation just get Windows 8.1 Pro, install client Hyper-V (part of Windows), setup a virtual switch, configure it to do a differential, and then install the client OS/TOR (which can be "anything," Linux, Chrome OS, Windows, et al).

The only thing the physical laptop REALLY needs is a TPM chip, and not all consumer grade laptops have it. That's to store your FDE key(s).

As to files, I wouldn't travel with them. Most countries can force you to reveal an encryption key by law. I'd just heavily encrypt them and then place them on the internet during travel.

Just assume that the government will get ahold of them and make sure the encryption is 10+ years rated (elliptic curves are your friend).

</comment><comment><USER3> I've never considered Tor as a beacon of security, I believe it to be anonymity. If this is secure stuff, you probably want to VPN into a known good host using a hardware token device. Since this is a work thing, they should most likely host the VPN device in their server room with appropriate access to their file servers and intranet.

I've seen several variants of secure laptops. First one is no boot on the disk at all, just a full disk encryption and a bootable CD.

The alternative is generally just full disk encryption.

If you have a super secure laptop that your post leads me to believe you want, you don't want to write to USB ever. This is how data leaks if you ever have the laptop stolen. Instead, enable read-only on the USB ports (you can do this in Windows via regedit, haven't had to do a Linux laptop).

For traveling with secure devices, simply don't travel with the assembled device. Ship the laptop ahead of you, and only travel with the hard drive, which has the sensitive data. The laptop sans drive is mostly useless, and you're acting as the physical courier for the data. The Dell business laptops that only need 1 or 2 screws removed to take out the hard-drive work well for this.

Also use a SSD for FDE, it's just too painful on 5400 rpm.

<comment><USER4> How would FDE affect the SSD/HDD decision (in any way that could favor an SSD)?

<comment><USER3> Think of it this way, when you have a normal system, your write is flushed out to the disk as fast as possible. When you add in full disk encryption, you're going to have to encrypt on write. Your write won't be acknowledged until it's physically on the disk, so the faster your disk is, the faster your write will be acknowledged. Same thing with reads, the faster you can read, the sooner you can decrypt and return the data to the application.

So SSD is definitely the way to go if you want to encrypt the whole disk. If that's too expensive, get a 7200rpm laptop drive.

<comment><USER4> The amount of time and overhead you have when encrypting on write or decrypting on read is the same for an SSD or HDD. So you're adding the same time lag and CPU overhead in either case. Only with an SSD the time lag is a greater proportion of the total time lag. Also, encrypting a sector means that SSD firmware can't compress it, which some would do. The argument you gave just says... that SSD's are faster. That is not news.

Also, the SSD firmware stores much more metadata about access patterns, which could revert your efforts at keeping your doings private.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The other on my twitter stream appeared this awesome USB device[1] (usbarmory), which you can use in a variety of ways. You can deploy your own cryptographic scheme, which could be fairly unique and virtually impossible to hack and very easy to conceal.

1\. You could for example create a mountable NTFS partition with seemingly _personal sensitive information_ (a couple of pictures, some documents, a personal love letter, some false business documents, etc.) and have your data in a second partition.

2\. Truecrypt was the only software the supported _hidden volumes_ as far as I know, but this device is really amazing IMHO and you can do all sort of things.

[1] [http://inversepath.com/usbarmory](http://inversepath.com/usbarmory)

</comment><comment><USER6> If you're going to build a secure laptop, why not go all out and remove your WiFi and bluetooth cards and connect to a Raspberry Pi or old router running PORTAL? :)

[https://github.com/grugq/PORTALofPi](https://github.com/grugq/PORTALofPi)

</comment><comment><USER7> I would do a dual boot with the default boot being dummy Windows XP without a password. Throw some "whatever" information on there. Put your secure OS on partition 2 and make it so you have to select it on boot to get into it.

<comment><USER8> Had something on an older machine once.

I had set up your second partition (Ubuntu) full encryption, then true crypt the first one. the boot starts with the truecrypt validation, if you didn't know to press escape you would not know that would result in the Ubuntu crypt validation.</comment></comment>


git cascade and git forward-merge - cool-RR https://github.com/cool-RR/git-cascade

<comment><AUTHOR> Forward-merge sounds useful, but can't you just fetch from the remote and then merge the remote -- e.g. git merge origin/shared-branch ?

Cascade, on the other hand, sounds way too risky for me to want to use. The few seconds of time you're saving are an investment into not fucking up something huge.

In general, I'm not a fan of anything that's designed specifically to make it easier for you to skirt a version control/deployment workflow you've established. That just puts unnecessary effort into treating the symptoms of a bad workflow (or an unrealistic stakeholder) when you should be working to address the root cause instead.

</comment><comment><USER2> Today was probably not the best day to submit this.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is nice.

One project i work on has two branches, master and release. We develop on master, then branch release from master when we want to make a release. If we find bugs during pre-release testing, we fix them on release, then immediately merge release back on to master. Note that this ensures that master is always a descendent of release, which means it's always safe to re-branch release. We don't use named feature branches; we make commits straight to release (and master). Could we use git-cascade to automate the immediate merge from release back to master?

<comment><USER4> >> If we find bugs during pre-release testing, we fix them on release, then immediately merge release back on to master

As a self diagnosed Aspie, I can't tell if this article or your comment are April 1st jokes. Which I guess is kind of the point of April 1st jokes.

<comment><USER5> Meh. That seems sensible to me, I guess, if it's something that the developer will guarantee won't change anything (eg. a typo in a translated string). I think "automatically" generated commits like this should clearly be marked as such so if something _does_ go wrong, it's possible to place the blame.

<comment><USER4> Back in days of yore, we decided to ship and updated the copyright string in the .text section of the product binary - from "Copyright 1989 SMI" to "Copyright 1991, Sun Microsystems", which subsequently changed the alignment of other sections and led to a 10% performance penalty (fixed by regenerating the order file.)

I've never thought there was such a thing as safe fix ever since...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> How would one normally achieve the effect of the git forward-merge in the command line?

My IDE usually does that for me, so never really considered it an issue to change branch with an unclean tree.

<comment> cool-RR I think you'd have to check out the target branch (stashing any changes if you had them), do `git merge source_branch`, and then check out the original branch you were on, and pop stash if you saved one.

Alternatively if the merge is a simple fast-forward you can just do `git push . source:destination`, which is what `git forward-merge` does in that case too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The name 'git cascade' made think that it was about updating feature branches when a mainline branch was committed to.

<comment> cool-RR If the feature branches are defined in the cascade order, it'll do that.

This gives me the idea of implementing wildcards in the cascade order, so feature branches will automatically be in the cascade order. Pull requests welcome.</comment></comment>


Job Fair - <AUTHOR> http://www.techmeetups.com/jobfair If you're looking for work in London and have experience in Tech. You may want to attend this event while they still have tickets. <comment><AUTHOR> If you're looking for work in London then why not check out www.techmeetups.com/jobfair

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> tickets for job-seekers are available via: <http://tmujobfair-lsr- es2.eventbrite.com/?rank=1></comment>


The MIT report on aaronsw - <AUTHOR> http://lessig.tumblr.com/post/56881544082/the-mit-report-on-aaronsw

<comment><USER2> Oh well, apparently the access of AaronSw was not "unauthorized".

        If indeed Aaron's access was not "unauthorized" — as
        Aaron's team said from the start, and now MIT seems to
        acknowledge — then the tragedy of this prosecution has
        only increased.

I wonder how this makes the prosecutors look like now.

<comment><USER3> Why does it make the prosecutors look worse? Aaron killed himself, and if he was convinced he was innocent, he should've stuck it out.

<comment><USER4> Plenty of people under torturous situations have committed suicide, even if innocent. You're just standard victim blaming now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This point, the one where if Aaron had sat in the library downloading Jstor articles, it would have been "ok" (because it is allowed by the guest policy) was always problematic for me as well.

<comment><USER6> I don't get this at all. If Swartz had walked into the library and told a librarian, "hi! I'd like to download the entire JStor archive. Where can I plug in?", they obviously would have told him "No". Everyone knows this. Swartz knew this: that's why he did so much to conceal his identity and conceal what he was doing.

<comment><USER5> That is the sticky bit isn't it?

Allowed by (then) MIT policy: Enter library, download "some" jstor articles.

There were no explicit limits other than 'we reserve the right to refuse service' sorts of things in their policy. So were he a patient person it would have been ok for him to come in each day, download some, until he had the entire set of all documents, however long that took.

An analogy might be ketchup packets at a fast food restaurant. You are allowed to take a 'few' for your meal, but clearly if you poured the whole box of them into your back pack you would be asked to leave, not because you are "stealing" ketchup, but because they _choose_ to refuse you service based on your abuse of their free ketchup.

So he clearly abused their good will, and by that abuse they had the right to revoke his access. And he was clearly working to avoid automated monitoring and revocation (which is a stand in for the librarian kicking you out) But prior to them revoking his access, his access was _authorized_.

Like I said, it's a weird thing. If someone comes to your "anyone is invited party" and then starts making an ass of themselves and you ask them to leave, you can't really accuse them of criminal trespass and breaking and entering. But you can sue them in civil court if they damage stuff, and you can call the cops to haul them away if they refuse to leave.

The point though of Lessig's note is, I believe, that this was an egregious use of a poorly written law (CFAA) with a variety of legal problems with its application. Had it gone to court the case law it might have established would have been helpful in avoiding future abuses.

<comment><USER6> This really seems like sophistry to me.

Everyone agrees that if Swartz had asked the library staff to help him download the entire JStore archive, they would have clearly said no. The difference between "some jstor articles" and "the entire archive" is huge and significant. His authorization was never a blanket authorization to do whatever he wanted with the JStor access, in part because MIT could not offer that: they could only offer access under terms that JStor set, and those terms banned whole archive scraping.

<comment><USER7> The idea that what is not explicitly prohibited is permitted is a very American attitude toward the laws, rules and regulations.

As an illustration, compare the structure of the rules of NFL American Football:

[http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/p...](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf)

To FIFA's Laws of the Game:

[http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereei...](http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/footballdevelopment/refereeing/81/42/36/log2013en_neutral.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So basically he accessed a wiring closet without authorization. The 50 years or so of time the federal attorney wanted to impose was all based on laws concerning unauthorized access to the network, not the closet.

When do the judicial misconduct hearings start?

<comment><USER9> They wanted to impose a few months, not 50 years. To have even a shot at 50 years under the Federal sentencing guidelines, he would have had to have had multiple prior convictions and to have basically been the Al Capone of unauthorized access.

<comment><USER8> They offered him a plea deal for a few months (6?) if he pleaded guilty. The club they beat him with was the threat to pursue 50 years if he fought the charges.

The prosecutor basically did sell him as an Al Capone of computer hacking; a threat to the nation, Mom, apple pie, and all that is good and right in America.

<comment><USER10> No, that's not true. We know it's not true because Aaron Swartz's lawyer disclosed the sentence they were threatening him with at trial, and it was nothing resembling that number. You can go look it up yourself. In the meantime, one wonders: since we know the number you stated can't possibly be true, where did it come from? What enabled you to confidently state that Swartz was threatened with a 50 year sentence?

<comment><USER8> My apologizes it wasn't 50 years, it was 35.

 _Federal prosecutors later charged him with two counts of wire fraud and 11 violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[17] carrying a cumulative maximum penalty of $1 million in fines, 35 years in prison, asset forfeiture, restitution and supervised release.[18]_

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz)

[Edit] Background information is also available here. It verifies the number of charges filed but not the total length of the possible prison term involved: [http://video.pbs.org/video/2325573247](http://video.pbs.org/video/2325573247)

<comment><USER10> No, you are still not even close. What's more, you didn't even respond to my comment; you simply parroted again the press release maximum sentence. Press release maximum sentences bear almost no relationship to reality. Once again: we know what he was actually threatened with. His lawyer disclosed it.

<comment><USER8> I've supplied a reference to what his maximum sentence could be given the crimes he was charged with.

Where is your reference to the contrary?

<comment><USER10> I'm going to let you do your own homework, because I expect that when I show you you're wrong, rather than thanking me for correcting you, you're going to get indignant and find some way to attack both me and the actual correct answer to the question. Maybe if you look it up yourself, that won't happen.

I've given you more than enough detail to go find the right answer.

You can in the meantime take my word for it on two things: (1) that Swartz was threatened with a specific sentence recommendation that was nowhere near 35 years (it was still a very tough sentence totally out of proportion to what he did) and (2) that a DoJ press release maximum sentence bears no resemblance to the sentences CFAA convicts can expect to receive from a judge.

<comment><USER8> When you significantly edit a comment it's usually considered good form to label the changes.

<comment><USER10> None of my comments were edited at any point near any of yours.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


What Do You Wear While Working from Home? - <AUTHOR> https://merrygowork.com/blog/d9yhrjxh5bwfaykd9hrsiq7y41t4ba <comment><USER2> The emperor's new clothes...</comment>


Searching for the missing truth: Axioms and infinities in mathematics - <AUTHOR> http://plus.maths.org/content/searching-missing-truth <comment><AUTHOR> If you like this, you'll like that:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2567227>

<comment><USER2> Links to HN post on "Picking holes in mathematics: Finitely stated, undecidable propositions".</comment></comment>