Reddit CEO Calls Out Former Reddit Employee on Reddit - <AUTHOR> https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama/cl1ygat?context=3 <comment><USER3> The CEO has responded to the criticism of how it was handled:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/ud...](https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/udehrmann_i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama_riama/cl25q4l)

"Hiya. It was a harsh response, I agree (there's actually more, but we're pulling our punches, if you can believe it), and in fact all day yesterday I didn't want to post a reply, hoping his AMA wouldn't get too much traction or he wouldn't spout too many misconceptions and we could all just continue going our separate ways.

Problem is, this was starting to really irritate a number of employees who'd worked with him, and he's the kind of guy who enjoys the attention he can get by saying "I used to be a reddit admin" even though he'll just post spurious stuff he doesn't know about, and left unchecked the positive attention encourages him to do it more.

In running reddit, there's an interesting balance between the normal standards of professionalism (which we try very hard to uphold even when someone is being unreasonable) and the fact that we're a huge internet forum where a higher degree of openness is expected. I'm actually really focused on building competent, professional management precisely because the spotlight is always on us - and also because I've been at other Silicon Valley companies where that hasn't always been the case - but it also means that because of that spotlight, any tiny deviation can be hugely magnified."

<comment><USER4> Without knowing any of the sides here, all I can say for sure is that the ex- Reddit employee is showing a baffling amount of bad judgment here, even when benchmarked against other young-techie-implosions. Maybe he thought, "Oh no biggie, I can always delete this thread later and my real name isn't on it"...yes, until the thread explodes and now one of the many tech-news blogs jumps on it...the "no doxx allowed" rule doesn't exist outside of Reddit. And now your Google results will, for the rest of your life or until you invent the cure for cancer, have this dumb fiasco tied to your name.

And for what? I would think a Reddit insider, of all people, would know how transient karma and internet fame is. Some employers are going to reject him because he now has a history of spectacularly ripping on his own company. But I have a negative opinion of him because at best, he's someone who shoots his mouth of when it's just not worth it, and at worst, he's a chronic attention seeker.

Rebels are fun. But this isn't Jimmy McNulty complaining about unpunished murders in Baltimore. This is an engineer complaining about business strategy above his pay grade...even worse, he takes the side against the (purportedly unwise) do-gooders at Reddit, so he doesn't even young-headed idealism to blame.

And this isn't even taking into account whether the CEO was speaking truth, in which case, if you were fired for alleged incompetence and you try to play it off publicly as if you were fired for taking a stand...that's just a whole different level of shortsighted stupidity.

That said, the CEO should've taken a few deep breaths before posting what he did. Wrestling with a pig in mud and all...it's not his job to be part of the sideshow and I'm having a hard time imagining that employees feel satisfied about this resolution...other than the fun of water cooler gossip.

edit: The worst part of the CEO's comment..."we're pulling our punches, if you can believe it"...no, I can't believe it, nor did I really care. But now you've shown that you'll play the stupid innuendo game, a rhetorical maneuver that has no upside to the company at all. _Christ_.

<comment><USER5> People who take the "moral high ground" always have to deal with the same criticism. Edward Snowden? Doing it for attention. Assange? Total attention whore

At some level its true. People take principled stands in the hope that somebody pays attention. That doesn't mean their criticisms or opinions are invalid.

<comment><USER6> There's nothing wrong with wanting attention. The only question is what do you give in return for it?

Some of the most significant experiences in my life came from giving my attention to authors, musicians, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Umm. It was pretty clearly not done for vindictive reasons.

The guy lied about why he was let go and put Reddit in the awkward position of either saying nothing and letting people believe they're a shitty workplace that fires people for disagreeing with management, or telling the truth about why the guy was fired (not laid off.)

Frankly, he brought this on himself by forcing Reddit into choosing between two sucky options.

<comment><USER8> Fallacy of the excluded middle:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_exc...](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle&redirect=no)

The choice is not between saying nothing, and completely devastating that person. Surely there is a third (or even fourth, fifth) alternative.

Also, saying nothing doesn't lead to the belief it is a shitty workplace. Just because someone posting in a forum that he's been fired from Company X for a reason he doesn't understand, that doesn't automatically mean that Company X is wrong and shitty; not everyone jumps to this conclusion, and certainly not based on the absence of any response from Company X.

<comment><USER9> True in theory, but in practice, even HN is full of comments like "Google is evil because [link to a random unfounded speculation/whining of ex-Googler]" and people _believe them uncritically_.

<comment><USER10> All the CEO's response accomplishes for me is prove the accusation that was out there.

The ex-employee implied management doesn't like criticism. Management then completely overreacts to criticism.

<comment><USER11> It's not the criticism; it's the fact that an ex-employee is lying through his teeth about the company.

<comment><USER12> where are the proofs that ex-employee is lying? It can be CEO is covering up. Is it not?

<comment><USER9> Is this probable given how much risk he would be taking on himself in this situation? It could be a career-and-company-ending move.

<comment><USER13> > It could be a career-and-company-ending move.

Are you kidding me? What world do you live in where corporate executives and companies are punished for lying?

<comment><USER9> Most cases you're probably thinking about are of CEOs of big companies issuing CYA-statements that minimize legal attack surface. Here, the guy just exposed himself completely. Also Reddit is not Goldman Sachs; it's value is directly proportional to how much people like the company, and Reddit finds itself in the middle of another funding round.

I do see a great potential for bad consequences here.

<comment><USER13> I doubt the unemployed guy would have the resources to mount a legal attack anyway. As for bad PR, take a look at this thread (or the reddit thread): the majority of people are reflexively siding with the CEO.

<comment><USER14> Reddit just raised $50 million. A lawsuit is the kind of thing some lawyers take essentially on commission when the target has money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Good lord, I hope the $50M investors in reddit are beating down the doors to get a PR person at the company so the CEO stops making crazy moves like this. There's no way a good developer would want to go work for Reddit when the CEO slaps people around in public (whether they deserve it or not). Sometimes you need to be the bigger man and move on instead of quarreling in public.

<comment><USER16> Agreed, this post only makes reddit look like a very unprofessional workplace.

<comment><USER17> Maybe it's not "professional", where that word has the common meaning of avoiding saying hard truths on the grounds that someone's feelings and/or political position might be hurt.

This significantly elevates Reddit, IMO. Their CEO acts like a _fucking human being_ instead of a politicized, sanitized, pretentious, weasel-wording sock puppet like so many other CEOs.

You have no idea how much respect I have for this.

<comment><USER18> A CEO's job isn't to be "a fucking human being". It's to be the public face of the company, and represent _its_ interests in all of his/her professional (and often personal) interactions.

To get stroppy like this abrogates that responsibility in such a way, and to such a degree, that it may well be actionable.

<comment><USER19> Disagree. Nipping the rumor in the bud that Reddit management fires for dissenting opinion has tangible value to hiring and retention, so a case could be made that Yishan was compelled to provide this response as part of his fiduciary duty. Reddit is a special case that is very pitchfork-happy when it comes to online drama, and even a mere offhand rumor will grow legs.

This _specific_ response with that level of harshness is definitely worth discussing, but if you're going to make the abrogation of fiduciary duty argument I think I'd side on him doing the right thing here (with respect to that).

<comment><USER20> Tech companies fire people for dissenting opinions. I'm not sure that it's news, or even especially wrong. That's an unwritten rule of the workplace: don't question or embarrass your boss or his boss. Ever.

This kid had very little credibility. Oddly enough, though his situation is overall worse now that Yishan responded, he has more.

What we now have is a factual event, not speculation, and it's far more damaging than a rumor that someone might have been fired over a dissenting opinion (which is not unusual).

<comment><USER19> It is absolutely unusual, and undoubtedly wrong, to be fired because you disagree. I disagree to the fullest extent with the project I am currently on and its overall direction and I have made that clear to my management. We've identified that opportunity to scope it better and, amazingly, my badge still works.

That you think you were "pushed out" of Google because you disagreed with the direction of G+, and that they were headed for _certain failure_ unless they dropped everything and pivoted due to your boundless German card game experience, is not evidence that Google regularly fires those that disagree. _How_ you disagree also matters, and your little charade on eng-misc is a legend to this day. I have no love for Google but even I am the first to acknowledge that they have created an environment wherein dissent is encouraged and welcomed and, in my brief tenure, was given ample opportunities to have my voice be heard and considered.

I will disagree wholeheartedly with you taking your experience (as flawed as your interpretation of events is) and attempting to justify firing over disagreement as a normal practice. I disagree with my boss, and his boss, and his boss all the time. I've disagreed with my director in front of people, and called him out on bullshit in front of his boss. You just don't know how to do so effectively, mchurch, which leads to embarrassing situations like the one you've been trying to pin on Google for a few years.

And yes, I am aware of the letter.

<comment><USER20> Did I mention Google on this thread?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Ok, I don't get it. So everyone here says that CEO's statement was childish, and yet next time when another company issues a professional statement, people will be calling it content-less cover-your-ass PR fluff, and crying for more honesty and straight talk. Make up your mind.

As for me, personally, I think CEO's response was exactly what it should be. Honest, clear, straight to the point. Reddit just earned my respect as a workplace.

<comment><USER21> Maybe your confusion will be reduced if you meditate on a few concepts:

* "Childish" and "unprofessional" are not synonyms.

* Neither are "adult" and "professional".

* Neither are "childish" and "honest".

* Neither are "adult" and "dishonest".

* PR fluff is not the same as the general concept of public relations.

* "We will not discuss this." is honest and straightforward, as are a number of alternative statements people have suggested.

* A statement made by an individual with limited power and resources may have very different implications and be perceived very differently than the same statement made by one with great power and resources.

* HN is composed of many individuals with nuanced opinions and worldviews.

* Individuals with diametrically opposed viewpoints in some areas may have very similar viewpoints in others, and sometimes the reasons for that may be subtle.

* No particular comment thread will necessarily have a representative sample of individuals participating.

* Confirmation bias exists.

<comment><USER22> Nope, not reduced a bit. Only your last 6 bullets were even semi-relevant (but still snarky) as the rest were mostly semantic nitpicking.

FWIW, "Childish" and "unprofessional" can arguably be used interchangeably in this case since they both present the concept of acting in contrast to the social norm of the group (adults & professionals), though their dictionary definitions are far from synonyms.

<comment><USER21> To me, "unprofessional" means "human", "professional" means "dishonest sociopath".

These are not semantic nitpicks. They have much deeper meaning. I cannot stop you from dismissing them, but I hope you will consider them more than you have.

<comment><USER9> I actually upvoted you, because all your bullets are technically true and are worth meditating on.

But I guess in this case, the most relevant conclusion would be that people whining about unprofessionalism and people whining about professionalism are two different groups; usually one speaks up and the other stays silent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Once again, reddit is a free-for-all until it looks like reddit might lose face, then we get an amateur level public response.

The employee might not have been a good employee, but this kind of public dressing down is absolutely unprofessional by the CEO.

Also: [https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama/cl1vmcs)

<comment><USER24> You try going and running an "AMA" on your former employer's platform - <USER2> that time ever comes. Frankly, you mess with the bull, you get the horns.

Let's not kid ourselves, this guy knew why he was let go. If he didn't, then that is an even stronger case for why he was let go.

He made the conscious decision to do an AMA on reddit's platform fully knowing his position on his employment. I think reddit's CEO was completely on target with his post. It was concise and professional - and stated the facts.

If you want to throw rocks at a hornets nest, be prepared to get stung.

<comment><USER23> The former employee is not the issue here. While reading through most of his AMA he seems pretty fair, respectful and thoughtful in his answers and he's entitled to his opinion, it doesn't discount him from having been a terrible employee. I'm not defending him in any way shape or form, but you'll notice he was very careful with how he worded his statements.

The problem is that as a CEO you _never_ do this. There's a lot of very good reasons why. At the start of that list is "it's unprofessional and bad form", at the bottom is "you'll get your company sued for libel" and in the middle are a whole long list of reasons like "damages current employee morale".

As much fun as it is seeing what appears to be an ungrateful shiftless employee get his comeuppance, airing dirty laundry like that as the CEO of a company is an absolute and very basic no no.

We, as the public, don't even know if what the CEO was claiming is true. If it's not, he just opened his company, now fat with cash, up to a very nice libel lawsuit. If it is true, he may have just irreparably harmed the career of a young tech worker at little consequence to himself, that's just bullying and really bad form.

If what the ex-employee said is true, he was fired for questioning a company policy, I'm sure there's a lot more to the story than that. He could have become disruptive over his questioning and the decision was made to terminate his employment. I don't think most people would have any issue with that, lesson learned on all sides, move on. If it's not true, it's not really all that big a deal, I'm not buying stocks based on his say-so anyways. People make all kinds of claims about their own employment all the time.

The CEO shouldn't have said anything at all. If he felt he _really_ needed to, a simple "Yes, we terminated his employment, those are not the reasons, the reasons are not public" and leave it at that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Sounds like a toxic environment. Whatever the employee may have done to deserve separation, it is profoundly weird and troubling (and also, implicitly threatening to all employees, whatever their rank or standing) to see a CEO discuss those reasons in public.

<comment><USER14> No. If you make accusations in a public forum (as that employee did) the company is going to respond. That is a given and perfectly normal.

The guy basically said he was "laid off" followed by "because I pissed off management with my feedback". Claiming it was a retaliatory firing forces a response.

<comment><USER25> _" because I pissed off management with my feedback"_

Umm -- did he say that, in the words you are using (and took the trouble to put in quotes)? If so, where? It doesn't seem to appear anywhere in the comment thread.

<comment><USER14> I was paraphrasing: "Officially: no reason. And I get this; I vaguely know how CA employment law works and that you limit your liability by not stating a reason. It's also really hard to work through in your mind. The best theory I have is that, two weeks earlier, I raised concerns about donating 10% of ad revenue to charity. Some management likes getting feedback, some doesn't.

..."

When you make a statement like "Some management likes getting feedback, some doesn't." in relation to being laid off, you are implying it was retaliatory. I'm pretty sure Yishan saw it as that hence his reply.

<comment> UK-AL That combined with Yishan's reply makes it LOOK more retaliatory.

<comment><USER14> You are welcome to your opinion. ;)

But anyone who responds to being called out publicly, isn't retaliating imo.

<comment> UK-AL It's not being called out, it's the tone. The tone sounds almost like a playground spat. Which hints at it being personality conflict, rather than a performance thing.

<comment><USER14> > It's not being called out, it's the tone. The tone sounds almost like a > playground spat. Which hints at it being personality conflict, rather than a > performance thing.

I've taken that tone with people in this thread to point out how stupid I consider there demonstrably false absolute statements.

So...I think the issue here is some people are bothered by Yishan (obviously) and some people are not.

Tbh, given the only way a CEO can safely say "you failed to perform" in regards to an employee is if they have documented missed deadlines by that employee...I don't think your point of view is likely grounded in reality.

Most (sane & rational) people don't open themselves up to a lawsuit without being pretty sure they evidence to support their statements.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I feel like it's relevant to point out that Yishan, Reddit's CEO, has written some of the most thoughtful advice on engineering management. I have personally benefited a lot from his thoughts on this:

[http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html](http://algeri- wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html)

</comment><comment><USER27> In these situations, the outcome is almost always bad for everyone involved, but these types of things happen from time to time. The git pull jokes, harassment accusations, and firings. Personally, I don't know if we are helping by giving more attention to it. We look on, face palm, etc, but the effects on these people is real and lasting. Personally, I have flagged this, because if this were me, I would hate to have a spotlight on it. We have a brief sliver of what is going on, speculation going wild, and this is basically on the public record now. We're all human, do dumb shit from time to time, and it's on the world stage. Hindsight sight is 20/20 and I'm sure they wish this never happened now. Yada, yada, yada.

</comment><comment><USER28> I really don't like this. The problem is that Yishan never explicitly states that there was an exit interview, and the reason for the termination was clearly explained.

He could have a half assed HR person that gave some bullshit reason like "you are not a good fit", and the ex-employee is legitimately confused about why he was terminated.

The other potential issue is that employees go into shock when they are told they are terminated, and are highly unlikely to remember the rest of the conversation correctly. People that get fired, generally aren't good at digesting feedback in the first place.

<comment><USER29> In California, a termination conversation usually begins and ends like this: "Thank you for your time, your services are no longer required. Please collect your belongings."

Anything else opens the company up to liability.

<comment><USER30> Do you think this former employee was planning on this kind of a reaction from Yishan?

<comment><USER29> I haven't the faintest idea. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> "yishan 27 points 15 minutes ago Hiya. It was a harsh response, I agree (there's actually more, but we're pulling our punches, if you can believe it), and in fact all day yesterday I didn't want to post a reply, hoping his AMA wouldn't get too much traction or he wouldn't spout too many misconceptions and we could all just continue going our separate ways. Problem is, this was starting to really irritate a number of employees who'd worked with him, and he's the kind of guy who enjoys the attention he can get by saying "I used to be a reddit admin" even though he'll just post spurious stuff he doesn't know about, and left unchecked the positive attention encourages him to do it more. In running reddit, there's an interesting balance between the normal standards of professionalism (which we try very hard to uphold even when someone is being unreasonable) and the fact that we're a huge internet forum where a higher degree of openness is expected. I'm actually really focused on building competent, professional management precisely because the spotlight is always on us - and also because I've been at other Silicon Valley companies where that hasn't always been the case - but it also means that because of that spotlight, any tiny deviation can be hugely magnified."[1]

[1] [https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/ude...](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/udehrmann_i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama_riama/cl25q4l)

<comment><USER25> _TL;DR_ : "We got antsy; we didn't know what to do; so we retaliated."

<comment><USER32> That is _not_ a tldr. That's your interpretation.

<comment><USER25> That's the point of TLDR'ing: what they said was so muddled (or evasive) that we're _forced_ to draw an interpretation.

<comment><USER33> The point of TL;DR is to summarize a longer piece. It literally means "Too long; didn't read"

<comment><USER34> I don't think you can summarize without first interpreting.

<comment><USER32> No, you totally can. You just repeat the main arguments of the author without injecting any of your own opinions.

<comment><USER35> _Main_ arguments are a matter of interpretation, so your second sentence opposes, rather than supporting, the first.

Summarizing is interpretation, since it is relaying the important points of the source, and determining what is important is a matter of interpretation.

<comment><USER32> Nope. Selecting which main argument to repeat is a matter of interpretation. But once you've selected it, repeating it requires little interpretation. Adding your own commentary requires interpretation in both selection and writing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Seeing some of the back & forth among HN'ers about "laid off" vs "fired" as a lie vs truth, I think it's worth clearning up a particular point.

Yes, being "laid off" is different from "fired" but the ex-employee (dehrmann) actually _did_ say he was fired. He just said it in a _very roundabout way_. He wasn't using "laid off" in its most obvious definition.

dehrmann said: " _I was laid off...no reason...some management doesn 't like feedback..._" which is his euphemism for saying "fired".

(sidebar: If one is a high profile employee such as an NFL coach or big shot CEO, he/she can simply and directly tell journalists, friends, etc that "I was fired"[2]. For some psychological reason, every one else from middle management down to line workers have a defensive mechanism to avoid the word "fired" and use softer language.)

TheOsiris[1] was of the few readers that picked up on the poster's roundabout language. Many others did not parse it correctly. Unfortunately, the Reddit CEO also didn't interpret it correctly and so he thought he had to correct dehrmann by saying " _you were FIRED for the following reasons_..." So, a misunderstanding by yishan for not recognizing his ex-employee's strung out phrasing of "yes I was fired" unfortunately lead to the (unnecessary) boldface of "fired" in his response.

Anyways, we can set aside the "laid off vs fired" and recognize that the real disagreement is whether the ex-employee and the the company parted ways because of management retaliation about charity strategy, or because a lack of work productivity.

[1][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417769](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417769)

[2][http://www.siliconbeat.com/2008/06/10/fiorina-to-nyt-i- layed...](http://www.siliconbeat.com/2008/06/10/fiorina-to-nyt-i-layed- foundation-of-hps-current-success/)

<comment><USER37> No company actually says "You are fired."

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Is this legal? Where I live, I'm pretty sure this kind of public disclosure isn't allowed due to privacy laws.

<comment><USER39> Yes, it's legal (and I just looked this up to confirm). Many companies will avoid commenting on these things because if they are not 100% accurate they raise the risk of a slander/libel case against them. For instance, if it turns out that Yishan here misspoke about something he could land the company in a bit of trouble.

Whether legal or not, it's certainly childish. The fact is anyone could have seen that this was a disgruntled former employee so there wasn't a need to say anything at all. If they had to comment then keep it brief. However, getting into a flame war on reddit (even if you are the CEO of the site) just makes the whole company look bad. Heads of companies simple do not get involved in pissing matches with former employees like this without a hit to their own reputation.

<comment><USER40> > For instance, if it turns out that Yishan here misspoke about something he > could land the company in a bit of trouble.

This is where the post goes horribly wrong, too much detail. If the former employee wants to start a lawsuit, any detail that can not be defined, was not measured, or is not written down is a liability. For example "not getting much work done"

<comment><USER41> Precisely. It's a hugely, and highly subjective detail. Is he a lazy slacker? Or was his idea of a full-time job not in line with management's (possibly onerous) vision of the same?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> No comments here on HN yet along the lines of all PR is good PR?

Lets face it, this is Reddit. He didn't get fired from the local railroad yard. They're getting excellent traffic off this story. Even the guy who got fired is at least getting "internet famous" for a day.

The whole story boils down to "reddit AMA's, something interesting to look at and talk about". Not seeing a problem here.

A real conspiracy theory would be playing this game to get some traffic was part of his severance package (In exchange for a faux argument in a AMA with our CEO, you'll get an extra 6 months salary as a severance bonus plus an extra month if the HN story gets over 100 comments, etc)

<comment><USER43> Filed under "so crazy it just might be true"

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I read a lot of comments on HN about his response being unprofessional and harsh, and on the latter of those counts, I do agree, it definitely had a negative tone. What I want to know, though, is _why_ so many consider it unprofessional. To me, and I'm making the assumption that Yishan isn't lying, any pleasantries owed this man ended the moment he decided to not only publicly broadcast his employment, but also falsify details regarding his termination.

Regardless of what I think, what actually makes this whole exchange unprofessional to others? Why should these details be protected, and why should companies and individual remain silent on these issues? I'm lumping this into the "political correctness" category until someone tells me it's about something more than someone having their feelings hurt (that they may have been asking for, even). Putting on my future-employment-perspective goggles, I can kinda-sorta see why this wouldn't be good, but I'd also be the type of person to argue that the current state of PR is particularly dismal when employers can't give any kind of factual details about a former employee's work record beyond whether or not they were fired. Why not just report details of employment and follow-up with the employee on any questionable/negative remarks? My guess is that a bad apple ruins the bunch when companies didn't/don't investigate those details with the employee and just pass them up altogether, creating an unfair situation for the prospective employee.

</comment><comment><USER12> I do not know much about laws. After working some years at an organization, asked to leave without stating any reason can be painful, traumatic to the employee. Employee can be alone with dependents and all of a sudden his/her world can be crashed.

Basic human courtesy can be to let the employee clearly know why he/she is asked to leave. At least, after knowing the reasons, he/she may change his behavior in future employment. If reasons are not known, employee can never know in reality what mistake is made/highlighted/led to this drastic decision and some times that act may be accidental or any politics by some other person ...etc. Since the employee says " by not stating a reason. It's also really hard to work through in your mind." i.e. he/she is still clueless on what exactly happened.

1\. Is it not fair/humane to give employee a chance to hear charges and to tell his/her side of story so that independent body can decide fairly?

2\. Reasons given by CEO such as incompetence,inappropriate comments,not taking feedback by managers may or may not be true in reality since proofs are not provided. Software development is a team work. So some times, mistakes of others can create burden on other and management may not aware of real culprit. Feedback is tricky aspect. I noticed management sometimes can be highly opinionated without real understanding of complexity of work/problems/issues, solutions tried ...etc. Managers just for their bonuses/promotions or to appear good in front of their bosses, act as intelligent or knowledgeable, though in reality they can be novices in many aspects. So if feedback is irrelevant or if feedback lacks common sense or lacks domain knowledge ...etc, then how employee can accept it?

We do not know many specifics about the incident and we do not have proofs So we clearly cannot point out who is wrong but employee should have been given a hearing by independent group on the charges so that he can defend and if that independent group do not agree, then they can ask him/her to leave.

Even in courts, where death sentence can be given, charges will be told and accused can provide his story/point of view on what happened and then court passes judgment. Then why similar facility cannot be provided to employee rather than throwing out like used tissue paper? It does not sound humane at all.

<comment><USER44> > After working some years at an organization

How many years has this person worked at reddit?

> Is it not fair/humane to give employee a chance to hear charges and to tell > his/her side of story so that independent body can decide fairly?

The employee does have a chance at redress by an independent body. At least in California, they can sew their past employer for wrongful termination. It will probably cost them a lot of money, especially if they were rightfully fired, but who were you hoping to pay for the 'independent body' to defend? The employer can't, it would be a conflict of interest.

<comment><USER12> >> How many years has this person worked at reddit?

I do not know. It can be some days/weeks/months ...etc. You can read it as "after working some time" but integrity of the message/comment won't change.

>> The employee does have a chance at redress by an independent body.

What I mean is, independent body inside the organization, taking employees from different other groups so that they can judge fairly. It should not be difficult for any one since it takes just few hours occasionally but at the end of the exercise, everyone can have a feeling of fairness, justice and there will be no rumors/ill-feelings ...etc. After all, we are mere mortals.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'd love to know what the inappropriate interview qusstio s were (if that bit is true).

<comment><USER30> Giving the benefit of the doubt I'd guess things that were just off script, even more guessing, either silly stuff or trying to make the candidate feel uncomfortable/inferior. Those are the most common I've seen at least.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is an unfortunate display of bad judgement by all parties concerned.

The disgruntled employee, even if he had not signed an NDA, did something fairly stupid and verboten -- namely, he bad-mouthed a former employer and ex- colleagues. The (tech) world is small and such public displays of indiscretions always come back to bite you.

Yishan Wong had a lot more to lose IMHO by engaging in this manner with the ex-employee in a public forum. He risks the reputation of his company and his own personal brand. Based on Yishan's writings that I've read, I found him to be a thoughtful manager who seemed ready to make the jump to executive cadre. I'd have expected a more mature reaction and ideally not a public one. No matter, we all have lapses of judgement -- hope that Yishan is getting appropriate counsel from more experienced executives and is able to defuse the situation without more damage -- reputational or otherwise.

</comment><comment><USER47> Sure the guy did some stupid things but who knows what his life is like and we're all human and do stupid things. The CEO's reaction was simply insensitive. Here's what the CEO should have done: have their lawyers draft a polite letter showing that they're serious about having him shut up. When he doesn't, ask your lawyers to take the next step.

His comments were temporarily mildly irritating to the company at best and would be forgotten within a few weeks (same goes for his reply). There's too many memes going around for anyone to remember stupid AMA posts.

My takeaway? If hiring this guy, then I'd judge him on his own merits. Otherwise, I'll avoid applying to Reddit for some time. I just hate those hard-ass get your shit done kinds of environments.

</comment><comment><USER48> No CEO worth his salt ever turns negatively disparaging remarks about an ex- employee into a soapbox. He just opened Reddit up to legal ramifications.

And with all the remarks here about how its "politically correct" to put on the HR spin about never going this low, i'm just shocked and amazed. I can see why its hard for these companies to find staff for HR.

</comment><comment><USER49> yishan just gave some more background about his comment in the discussion in r/RedditCensorship.

[https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/ude...](https://np.reddit.com/r/RedditCensorship/comments/2ifd3p/udehrmann_i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama_riama/cl25q4l?context=3)

</comment><comment><USER50> Found this on California defamation law:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/2igkke/reddit_ceo_ca...](http://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/2igkke/reddit_ceo_calls_out_former_reddit_employee_as_to/cl26fha)

Wonder why it was designed that way.

</comment><comment><USER51> I don't care who did what but the CEO of a company should not be making public statements like this, especially in a forum the likes of reddit.

Does this company have a Corporate Communications officer? This event makes me question the logic of reddit's investors.

</comment><comment><USER50> "When an employee is dismissed from employment at a company, the policy of almost every company (including reddit) is not to comment, either publicly or internally. This is because companies have no desire to ruin someone's future employment prospects by broadcasting to the world that they were fired."

IMO there need to be a better solution than this. I also don't like anti discrimination laws and I have a proposal for getting rid of them: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7727917](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7727917)

<comment><USER42> Don't forget that the ex-employee might be gone, but the guy who hired him is probably still there and doesn't really need documentation of how his judgment was screwed up at hiring time. So there is very little motivation to document why someone is being fired unless you can prove in writing the problem began after hiring or couldn't have possibly been detected in the hiring process.

The explanation is silly (does any company REALLY care about its employees much less ex-employees?) but the end result is the same, no point in talking about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Great response. Very risky for a CEO to do it nevertheless.

</comment><comment><USER53> Forcing employees to sign a non-disparagement agreement? -- Screw that. (Edit: force, compel, persuade, strongly hint: semantics.)

Saying that a former employee violating a non-disparagement agreement means that it's now a good idea for the company to take use an eye-for-an-eye policy in return? -- What.

No (American) non-executive employees should ever be forced to sign anything. I never have for any job. Employers are in too powerful of a position by default.

<comment><USER54> I don't think you're forced to sign. That point is also lightly touched on in the comment - "the non-disparagement we asked you to sign" and "Even if you don't sign the non-disparagement".

I've signed these before, and I was under no impression that I was being forced.

<comment><USER55> His signature was required for the severance package, according to him.

[https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_r...](https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2iea97/i_am_a_former_reddit_employee_ama/cl1u62c)

<comment><USER56> Then he shouldn't have signed the severance deal (which he didn't). An employer is not entitled to give you money to go away; they give you money in exchange for certain things, one of those being that you shut your mouth and not do an AMA on reddit about it.

This guy is an idiot and is likely going to have a hard time finding a job based on this behavior. What he's doing isn't illegal, but it's quite unprofessional.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> C-64-Hacker yishan needs to be terminated. Even his follow-up posts in other threads is demonstrating his smug self-righteous attitude that is unbecoming of a CEO in his position.

</comment><comment> C-64-Hacker This guy needs to be fired.

</comment><comment><USER57> Aw man. This is totally gonna get taken down by YC management/altman...

<comment><USER58> It's so much easier to casually fling things like this out there than it is to answer them, but FWIW, what you're insinuating is false. We penalize stories less, not more, when they're anti-YC, and every moderator is strictly instructed about it.

<comment><USER29> And also, technically the YC entity has no investment in reddit anymore, only individual partners. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Wow, that was incredibly unprofessional on Yishan Wong's part. I can only imagine how rotten and horrible Reddit's work culture must be. No one could possibly pay me enough to work there.

</comment><comment><USER60> OMG, reddit hires incompetent people who are not getting much work done. I thought only demigods work there.

<comment><USER61> _reddit hires incompetent people who are not getting much work done._

That explains why I don't recall ever seeing a new user feature (e.g. tagging, user blocking, a useful save or search function) in the years I've been on Reddit.</comment></comment>


Arthur C. Clarke Predicts the Internet and PC (1974) - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIRZebE8O84 <comment><USER2> _It will soon be possible, for instance, for a business man in New York to dictate instructions and have them appear instantly in type in London or elsewhere. He will be able to call up from his desk and talk with any telephone subscriber in the world. It will only be necessary to carry an inexpensive instrument not bigger than a watch, which will enable its bearer to hear anywhere on sea or land for distances of thousands of miles. One may listen or transmit speech or song to the uttermost parts of the world. In the same way any kind of picture, drawing, or print can be transferred from on place to another. It will be possible to operate millions of such instruments from a single station. Thus it will be a simple matter to keep the uttermost parts of the world in instant tough with each other. The song of a great singer, the speech of a political leader, the sermon of a great divine, the lecture of a man of science may thus be delivered to an audience scattered all over the world._

\- Tesla, 1909

[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nN8DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA476&vq...](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=nN8DAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA476&vq=tesla&pg=PA476&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)

[http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/teslatower/teslatower3....](http://www.teslasociety.com/pictures/teslatower/teslatower3.jpg)

He also said some nice things about communication devices "in your vest pocket," but I can't find it.

<comment><USER3> > _The song of a great singer, the speech of a political leader, the sermon of > a great divine, the lecture of a man of science may thus be delivered to an > audience scattered all over the world._

" _...and videos of cats._ "

I find it endearing that our visions of the future always see the best (or worst) of humanity, but never the mundane or banal.

> He also said some nice things about communication devices "in your vest > pocket," but I can't find it.

I had a search. Maybe this one?

"When wireless is perfectly applied the whole earth will be converted into a huge brain, which in fact it is, all things being particles of a real and rhythmic whole. We shall be able to communicate with one another instantly, irrespective of distance. Not only this, but through television and telephony we shall see and hear one another as perfectly as though we were face to face, despite intervening distances of thousands of miles; and the instruments through which we shall be able to do his will be amazingly simple compared with our present telephone. A man will be able to carry one in his vest pocket."

[http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1926-01-30.htm](http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1926-01-30.htm)

though I think that's actually one of the less interesting things to be found in that interview... Tesla really was quite the interesting person, it seems.

<comment><USER2> Ah indeed, that's the one!

> _though I think that 's actually one of the less interesting things to be > found in that interview_

oh I probably agree, or at least in general - in terms of what kinds of things Tesla might have said that might still be relevant. Check out his biography on wiki - totally bananas, and most awe-some indeed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I interviewed Clarke in Sri Lanka in 2003 and asked him what he predicted for the future. He pointed to a bookcase full of his books. Then he told me a joke: [http://newslines.org/mark-mary-devlin/arthur-c-clarke- tells-...](http://newslines.org/mark-mary-devlin/arthur-c-clarke-tells-mark-a- joke/)

<comment><USER5> Thanks for sharing. The joke was really funny!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is from 1974. It's worth noting that by 1974, the TCP/IP spec was already written, what many consider the first PC (the Altair 8800) was out, and ARPANet had been around for years, with transatlantic nodes already in existence.

<comment><USER7> > what many consider the first PC (the Altair 8800) was out

There's a good case to be made that the first personal computer was introduced in 1971, and had actually ceased production in 1973: [http://www.kenbak-1.net/](http://www.kenbak-1.net/)

The Altair 8800 is more important as a predecessor on the main line of microcomputer development, but the basic idea of a computer a single individual human being who wasn't massively wealthy could own was actually, to some small extent, achieved a few years before anything that would evolve into the rest of the microcomputer line was in existence. (To be technical, the Kenbak-1 can't be in the microcomputer line because it wasn't a microcomputer, because its CPU was built out of discrete components as opposed to having been a microprocessor.)

<comment><USER8> Seems to me that the computers that come and then fade again have one thing in common, limited expandability.

The Altair 8800 brought with it the S-100 bus. And you find a similar bus (ISA) on the early IBM PC. both of these meant that a single "core structure" could be made to do multiple things.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> THE MACHINE STOPS

by E.M. Forster (1909)

[http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/prajlich/forster.html](http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/prajlich/forster.html)

<comment><USER10> Seconded. This is such an awesome short story. Forster isn't remembered as a prolific sci-fi author, but this story does a great job of predicting the problems of modern technology.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> ...but Robert Heinlein predicted why or rather how the web would work on us. In 'Friday,' he gets wrong that it will be a system with metered, limited access...

...but (to my mind, remarkably) predicts that multimedia-enabled hypertext will lead to associative impulsive serendipitous browsing, not structured intentional behavior. The one scene in which the eponymous character interacts with the network is given primarily to a discussion of her own digression into subjects far afield from her nominal research topic.

...he also predicts that this might provide surprising value.

RIP RAL!

<comment><USER12> He also described it as a hierarchical system: Set your terminal to "research." Punch parameters in succession "North American culture," "English- speaking," "mid-twentieth century," "comedians,", "the World's Greatest Authority." The answer you can expect is "Professor Irwin Corey." You'll find his routines timeless humor.

Mind you, this is after Vannevar Bush's "As We May Think" and Memex, which got many people excited about the idea. This in turn was influenced by earlier investigations by Davis and Draeger in 1935 on searching with microfilm.

In the last year I've been researching earlier information systems, including those of the punch card era. Calvin Mooers, in his paper "Making Information Retrieval Pay", which coined the term "information retrieval", proposes a mechanical search engine called DOKEN which could handle Heinlein's proposed query (see [http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=4243](http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=4243) ), except that "Professor Irwin Corey" is too specific to be an index query using Zatocoding.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Prescient. However the earliest accurate prediction of the Internet and personal computing I've yet come across is still Murray Leinster's 1946 short story "A Logic Named Joe"

[http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200506/0743499107___2.htm](http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200506/0743499107___2.htm)

<comment><USER14> How about Paul Valery in around 1900:

"Just as water, gas, and electricity are brought into our houses from far off to satisfy our needs in response to a minimal effort, so we shall be supplied with visual or auditory images, which will appear and disappear at a simple movement of the hand, hardly more than a sign."

Sure, it doesn't use the language and notion of the computer, but how important is computing per se to 95% of Internet users?

<comment><USER14> I'm sorry to say that I have discovered that this first appeared in an essay, The Conquest of Ubiquity, published in 1928. So, not quite as amazing as I thought. Walter Benjamin didn't identify the precise source when he quoted it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> To be accurate, he predicted not the PC and the internet in this clip, but having a terminal (console) at home that connects to a computer somewhere else. My dad had that in the late 1970s: a big (printer) terminal that connected by 300 baud modem to his office.

<comment><USER16> Most people only really use their computer as a terminal to connect (via HTTP) to a computer somewhere else (facebook.com).

<comment><USER8> Computing seems to be about reinventing the old in a more glossy exterior every other generation or so.

The "cloud" seems to be a new go at the virtualization uses that has been done on mainframes since the 70s. One may go as far as to say that the cluster rack is the mainframe v2.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Clarke also predicted genetically engineered chimpanzee slaves, the 'Superchimp' (or 'Simp' for short). Leaving aside the ethical issues this raises, it indicates that he thought that it was more likely that such a creature would be created than intelligent robots.

[http://nemaloknig.info/read-88307/](http://nemaloknig.info/read-88307/)

</comment><comment><USER18> It's a nice video but this was in 1974, not THAT long ago despite the fact it's in black and white. Let's not forget that a lot of people actively try to achieve things that take longer than they expect to come to market, so it's not completely surprising someone back then had a clear vision of what could the future be like (and happened to be right. But for each good prediction there's a 100 out there which were wrong, so let's not forget that).

</comment><comment><USER19> He also predicts that the entire workforce will become purely remote workers (telecommuters). While this is technically possible, it has met quite the opposition (and lack of proper tooling to make it as efficient and effective as it needs to be). Of course, maybe that is the idealist view. The realist view is that it will only lead to easier outsourcing? :p

<comment><USER20> > He also predicts that the entire workforce will become purely remote workers

Did he make that statement elsewhere?

In this video he just said "it would make it possible to live anywhere we like. Any businessman or executive could live almost anywhere on earth and still do his business". That's largely true today.

<comment><USER21> It's possible, yet we still see the majority of jobs in cities where people either have to live or commute to - at the expense of time and money.

And funnily enough, Silicon Valley, part of the industry that makes it possible to work remotely is highly localised.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Yeah, Arthur C Clark had some doozies. The bio-engineered monkeys as servants was a good one. :) [http://mentalfloss.com/article/57157/arthur-c-clarke- predict...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/57157/arthur-c-clarke-predicts- future-1964)

</comment><comment><USER23> I wonder where the interviewer's son Jonathan is now and what his thoughts are?

</comment><comment><USER24> He also predicted in this video "digital nomadism" when he mentions about being able to live anywhere in the world and still work.

Yeah, I'm British but I'm posting this from Singapore. #yolo

</comment><comment><USER25> Relevant:

The Oracle: _We can never see past the choices we don 't understand._

</comment><comment><USER26> Isn't it a bit late to predict that NOW!?.. :P

I really enjoyed books like "Rendezvous with Rama". It isn't often that books written about the future in the 70's still are as mesmerizing today.

</comment><comment><USER27> Crazy - not only predicted the internet and the PC but nailed the commerce portion of it as well almost down to a T.

</comment><comment><USER28> > Computer dependent society

Yep!</comment>


Should I Flush It? Most Often, the Answer Is No - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/25/science/do-not-flush-down-toilet.html <comment><USER2> I was telling my wife about this article this morning, commenting that this why we're screwed on global warming: people have to be told not to put stretchy latex things into the sewage system. How on earth are people really expected to grasp a more complex issue like AGW?

Are people flushing condoms because they want to see the world burn? I doubt it, they probably just never gave it any thought and are understandably ignorant of how those systems work. OTOH, ladies, if we don't know by now not to flush our tampons then you probably don't live somewhere where tampons exist. But people still do it. So maybe people really just don't care as long as they don't immediately (or ever) have to deal with consequences.

<comment><USER3> > people have to be told not to put stretchy latex things into the sewage > system. How on earth are people really expected to grasp a more complex > issue like AGW?

And yet we can put big wads of paper and faeces in the sewage system. There is nothing logical or illogical about what you can flush, you have to be told how the processing works and what its limitations are to know.

<comment><USER4> I dunno... I was a child when I noticed that toilet paper is different from other paper, in that it degrades pretty rapidly when wet. Feces also obviously doesn't hold its shape very well. That seems fairly straightforward and 'logical', and my instinct wouldn't be to flush anything that doesn't have a decent chance of breaking up in water. Again, most kids would know that latex and rubbery things don't break up in water.

I've never looked up the way the plumbing system works and what it can handle, and was never taught much about it, but it was pretty easy to come to the subconscious conclusion that flushing is (generally speaking) for liquids, poop, and TP.

I will say that I wouldn't expect anyone to know that (as described in the article) a product explicitly marketed as "flushable" wouldn't be good for the water system. But that's a separate topic IMO: a systemic failure in providing inaccurate information vs making assumptions that don't err on the side of caution.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My 8th grade science curriculum included a pretty detailed few weeks spent on wastewater that covered everything from septic systems to public sewers; we even took a field trip out to a massive processing plant and saw how it all works first hand. At the time I don't know that I had an appreciation for why it was a part of the curriculum, but I'm glad it was.

On a related note, "Trapped Under the Sea" is a fantastic book about a huge engineering project to manage wastewater in the Boston area that led to several tragic deaths. Great read and a great reminder of the sacrifices made to efficiently carry our waste out of sight and out of mind.

</comment><comment><USER6> About pharmaceuticals, the article implies the only problem is people flushing mass amounts of unused pills.

Biology / medical experts feel free to correct me, but I always thought that many drugs are mainly removed from the body by being filtered into the urine by the kidneys (instead of chemically broken down in the liver or elsewhere). So wouldn't that mean a big part of the "pharmaceuticals in our sewers" problem comes from people taking pills, having the drug pass through their system and coming out when they use the toilet for its intended purpose?

</comment><comment><USER7> Just telling people "don't do that" rarely works. I'm not going to go back to wiping my arse with paper like some kind of barbarian, and I'm not leaving shitty wipes in a bin for any period of time. Multiply that by millions (billions?).

We need to develop/commercialise sanitary materials that don't cause these sewage treatment and environmental problems, but they probably cost slightly more == less sales in the store == LESS PROFIT.

<comment><USER8> One solution is the bidet shower[1][2] that's common in Islamic and Asian countries. Nothing to clog up the sewage system and a rather civilised way to keep clean.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower)

[2] [https://www.twogreenbackpacks.com/2014/01/17/how-to-use-a- bu...](https://www.twogreenbackpacks.com/2014/01/17/how-to-use-a-butt-spray- in-se-asia/)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Whatever Happened to Google/Apache Wave? - <AUTHOR>

I was thinking of it yesterday -- how cool it would be to use as a commenting system on a blog.
Went over to the Apache site and it doesn't look like there's been much activity.
Does anybody know if the project is officially dead? Or is there some chance that a working version will be available to folks? <comment><USER2> According to the bug tracker there's still some work going on: [https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WAVE/?selectedTab=com....](https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WAVE/?selectedTab=com.atlassian.jira.jira- projects-plugin:summary-panel)

</comment><comment><USER3> Turned into Google+</comment>


Most NoSQL DBs Are Not Scalable - <AUTHOR> http://jamesgolick.com/2010/3/29/most-nosql-dbs-are-not-scalable.html

<comment><USER2> This article has absolutely no value to me. You call the debate stupid and then continue on with three or four more paragraphs where none of your opinions are backed up with any information.

I understand it's a personal blog and maybe you just want to get your thoughts out there. I don't understand how it contributes to the debate. You've made two categories of databases, point out that nobody seems to be able to properly categorize them like you have, and then fail to explain how you categorized them.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have little experience with the others under "can't scale just like MySQL", but putting CouchDB under is more wrong than it is right and unfair in any case.

First of all there's excellent single node scalability, the general architecture is built with based on clusterability with support for node disconnects and reconnects between nodes. And then there's <http://tilgovi.github.com/couchdb-lounge/> which provides clustering today.</comment>


HTML5 apps: Silk, Audiograph, Circuitlab - <AUTHOR> http://blog.filepicker.io/post/33589412189/html5-apps-silk-audiograph-circuitlab

<comment><USER2> Thanks for including CircuitLab! Our users are telling us that they're using our in-browser circuit simulator (<https://www.circuitlab.com/>) to replace desktop-based software such as Cadence PSpice, NI Multisim, and Linear's LTspice. All in all, our engineering, academic, and hobbyist users ran more than 100,000 circuit simulations using CircuitLab in the last week alone! Those two facts together are telling us great things about the future of browser-based applications.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for building it! I've been using it as a schematic editor for about the last 6 months to illustrate posts online (I haven't tried the simulator yet) and it's the most impressive software feat I've seen in a long time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> These are really impressive, thanks for sharing. Silk is hypnotic and relaxing.

<comment><USER5> Silk is awesome. I wish the palette wasn't limited and there were a few more symmetry options.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is what i did with silk : <http://new.weavesilk.com/?5cp7>

<comment><AUTHOR> psychedelic!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Should I lower my rates for small startups? - <AUTHOR> I've been freelancing for over a year now (doing embedded software engineering). I raised my rate a few months ago from $52 to $64 per hour. Things are going well and I plan on raising them again soon.
Recently, I've had some very small, bootstrapped start-ups contact me for quotes to do projects. They can't afford my normal rates. I ended up doing a very small project for one company for what came out to about $25/hour.
Recently another small start-up contacted me about doing a project which I estimated would take about 4-6 weeks working part-time. A fixed rate of $2000 (about $20/hour). This is for building/programming the first prototype/MVP. It's an exciting project and I think it will be successfully launched, but I can't work for that little.
How can I get more compensation for my work? Cash - they don't have much. Equity - no idea. Promise of future work - I have no problem finding work. Share in future profits - that would be nice.
Any advice or recommendations? <comment><USER2> A few points:

You're not charging nearly enough. If you're good enough to build a startup's MVP there's no reason for you to charge less than $80-100/hr. It doesn't matter where you live, either; code written in New York City works the same way as code written in Omaha.

I'm going to second the general consensus and say that no, you shouldn't, unless you're getting something else out of it with a potential upside above your current rate. If you're going to risk getting paid nothing more than a fraction of your already low rate, the upside needs to compensate for that.

Personally, I don't think you should take equity. Too many startups fail and even for successful startups equity generally means squat unless you're raising a ton and can take some off the table, or you're profitable and can get a disbursement.

If I were in your position, I'd agree to the $2k flat rate, capped at _n_ hours (100?). If it goes over, $20/hr thereafter. Ask for a royalty off the top of every subscription/widget/sale, something like the lesser/greater of _$x_ or _y%_ depending on their model. Instead of someone skimming profits that will most likely never materialize, you're a cost of doing business _before_ they become profitable.

Asking for equity guarantees you a slice of what will most likely be nothing. Asking for a royalty gets you a small sum with every sale. And you've still got the $2k.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is an easy one. A big part of freelancing is saying "no." This is a good opportunity to exercise that skill.

Freelancing is a partnership. Much more so than so many other client - provider relationships (getting your oil changed for example.) In many cases, a bad client can put a serious hurt on my earnings and I could put a serious hurt on the client as well. There is a lot of trust there, and each party needs to be highly professional. This isn't a lemonade stand.

If someone approaches me asking me to do something for far lower than my normal rate, then their ability to be a good partner takes a serious hit from my view. It's not about the money, it's the fact that they could make the offer comes off as them being clueless. Not good for a partnership.

At 20 / hour they would be lucky to find someone from a developing nation who barely speaks English.I would direct them to Elance.

<comment><USER4> I totally agree.. In the end all you are doing is devaluing your service. You are basically saying.. sure I want $64/hour but the work is really worth $20/hour.

Take the extra time you would have spent on those clients to beef up your skill set so you can start offering more services or charging more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> At a startup, every contractor work counts.

Two cases where I'd accept reduced rate are:

1) You're into who we are and what we're doing, and potentially want to become a part of us. In this case we are testing each other out, and there is a mutual risk and cost as the startup will have to make extra effort figuring out how to work well with you.

2) We're mutually doing a favor, concurrently, or in the future. e.g., we're in the same field or town and we want the both of us to succeed to increase our pie; we're personal friends who've been helping each other.

Otherwise, I would not want anything other than your best work for my startup, and will pay the fair price for it.

</comment><comment><USER6> There's exceptions i guess, if you like the startup founder's ..the idea and feel that your contribution as tiny or as big as it may be will put this great product out to market quick, then why not drop your rates. Other than friends/family referrals, ide stick to your normal rates. You never know what your " serendipity" karma may come back to you and that small startup you helped remembers what you did for them and does something awesome for you. i dunno i guess my two cents.

</comment><comment><USER7> At scale, volume can offset a lower price. One person consultancies don't scale that way without adding staff.

I would add that low rate clients are the worst type of repeat business. And word of mouth advertising (aka "telling all their friends") about your low rates isn't particularly beneficial.

</comment><comment><USER8> Personally, I would not do it without some other form of agreement, either equity or an agreement that future work will come to me and that the rate will slowly rise to your preferred rate. This also really depends on the start-up and how comfortable you are with them. I have seen many small businesses abuse the "we are small, can you help us out" card, so you really have to get a gut feel for if they are on the up and up or will they expect that lowered rate for the entirety of your relationship and them move on once you will not provide it. Equity is obviously the most secure way for you to allow them to defer cost will still ensuring your compensation, other than that, you really have to ask yourself if they are truly just cash strapped.

</comment><comment><USER9> Small startup CTO and ex-contractor here:

Raise your rates and don't make a special exception for small startups.

Equity/royalties for contract-work is awful dodgy. Equity/revenue share is generally reserved people who want to make a long-term investment in the company, either through money or time.

</comment><comment><USER10> The issue here is that you aren't a candidate to work for small bootstrapped startups. You can tell this is the case by the unfavorable results you get by working for them. Startups get talent by partnering with the right people. I can't imagine a good excuse for a startup involved in embedded systems not to have an embedded dev on the team.

</comment><comment><USER11> Same problem here. I usual offer a small discount on my rate for startups and suggest simply reducing the scope if they can't afford paying me too many hours. Thinking about it now, I think next time I will offer to work at a lower rate in exchange of having the possibility to open sourcing (parts of) the project.

</comment><comment><USER12> Take equity if you think they are a promising startup. If you don't think they are promising, then you're effectively doing charity work.</comment>


Show HN: Half-Life 2 Deathmatch Mod Server - <AUTHOR> Servers' been around for 7-8 years and just made them a new website for the community of regulars. It's a fun game though for $5!<p>http://skulshockforever.com <comment><USER2> I've been out of the game for years, but I'd like to play. I feel like your link just goes to a forum post and I'm not sure how to join.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is the video of the play live?</comment>


I've run out of programming languages to study - <AUTHOR> http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4186

<comment><USER2> >> HTML, SQL, C, Java, Objective-C, Prolog, Common Lisp, CLOS, J, Scheme, Ocaml, Haskell, Agda, Oz, Reversible programming, Quantum algorithms to name a few.

You miss out the rising stars of programming languages: Erlang and Clojure.

</comment><comment><USER3> Then just build something out of them.</comment>


Building A Paid App For Firefox OS - <AUTHOR> https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/02/building-a-paid-app-for-firefox-os/

<comment><USER2> Counterpoint: as a developer, this looks awful.

For iOS: write an app, set a price, release it. For at least 90+% of potential customers, they have to pay for it. Piracy requires modifying the device in a way that Apple blocks.

For Android: write an app, set a price, release it. Anyone can easily pirate it, but it's still easiest to buy it instead.

For Firefox OS: write an app, set a price... then write a web service to do receipt checking? Integrate a library to verify purchases? That's a lot of critical code I now have to maintain, and is easy to get wrong. And my app now depends on having a server available (either mine or, it seems, a third party) to verify. And, of course, it's all JavaScript: patching it out is trivial for piracy.

I guess it's more "open" or something, but it just seems like more work for the same result.

<comment><USER3> It's just as easy on Firefox OS. Writing a web service is not required! Mozilla provides one for you :)

BTW, both iOS and Android require servers to be available for purchase checks unless, as the app developer, you don't care about piracy (which might be legitimate for the "most people will buy it" argument).

As for JavaScript being easy to patch. Is it really easier though? You can literally copy around apk files or search for them on pirate sites to get paid Android apps for free. There are videos on youtube for how to Patch paid iOS apps with fake certs and DNS hacks.

<comment><USER4> You can't compare JS patching to someone spending hours and hours finding methods for using fake certs and DNS hacks. Sure the end result may be similar but to get to their requires a A LOT less more. Anyone can open up a JS file, find a line of code that does security checking, and return it false. You can show someone that in a Youtube video. What you can't show someone is how to spend hours and hours looking for ways to trick the OS into believing that the packaged application was previously paid for even though it wasn't.

<comment><AUTHOR> Obfuscated and minified JavaScript with license checking scattered in diverse places will be _much_ , _much_ harder to figure. And it'll vary from app to app, while with Apple devices if you've stolen one you've stolen them all. (I think that's the effect?)

<comment><USER5> Not when you can easily just hijack the receipt methods. A lot easier than IAT hooking..lol

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is pretty exciting. Being able to have an open marketplace without lockdown is... erm... well. It's a refreshing change from the iOS land and I hope to see more in this direction.

At any rate, I am starting up a project that I am hoping to sell on the FF Marketplace. It's going to be a trip (never done app development before!).

</comment><comment><USER7> I definitely appreciate the portability and open standards that seem to be at the core of this product. My startup also runs an app store like product and we decided to focus mostly on web for these same reasons. Portability and open standards are amazing assets that we are not willing to give up and I'm REALLY interested in the process and approach Mozilla is taking to use the same benefits in the mobile market. Mozilla is on the comeback! Watch out tech giants!

</comment><comment><USER8> I think the open web-applied to smartphones-will be what the entire smartphone market eventually arrives at. Mozilla is playing the long game and doing a lot of extra work and will go through a lot of issues that they wouldn't if they made another walled garden OS and marketplace. One of the reasons that the web is so popular for developing apps is its openness and prevalence. The more momentum firefox OS builds, the more pressure will be put on other phone OS ecosystems to follow suit, especially if you can use firefox within other ecosystems and it integrates well with their marketplace and apis. When that happens, it will be increasingly hard to justify creating a device specific app when you can cover every device with one webapp.

This will be an exciting project to watch.

</comment><comment><USER9> An interesting link buried in the article:

[http://www.macworld.com/article/1167677/hacker_exploits_ios_...](http://www.macworld.com/article/1167677/hacker_exploits_ios_flaw_for_free_in_app_purchases.html)

Does anyone know if Apple has addressed this yet?

In any case, it will be interesting to see if Mozilla can pull this off. When I download an app, isn't it just Javascript? What's to stop me from just diving into the app's source and putting in `function is_this_a_valid_app() { return "yep"; }` ?

<comment><USER10> That is an old one.

The one concern for app developers on the FirefoxOS will be protecting their code. If its trivial to reverse an Android app and use that code it will be even easier to do it on FirefoxOS. So because of that most apps will be webapps and not native apps. The downside is you will need an always on network connection.

Validating and enforcing in-app purchases will not be a problem on Firefox OS if its a web app. Of course it can be trivially circumvented in native apps. More reason why I expect only webapps on that OS.

<comment><USER3> You also need an "always on" network to verify paid iOS or Android apps. They use web services for verification.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I want to like Mozilla, really, but _why_ do they seem unable to put out a press release that doesn't contain gratuitous lies or misinformation? (The last Mozilla PR release I read was also misleading: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5128924> ).

 _there is a key difference: it does not lock you into Mozilla or lock you into your Firefox OS phone_

How is this true in any meaningful way? I look down this list of APIs: <https://wiki.mozilla.org/WebAPI> and I see many many things that are FirefoxOS only, and are not planned to be made available for other platforms.

If they want to say that FirefoxOS can display 'standards compliant' web pages then yes, great, but so can every other OS to some degree (web 'standards' are a moving target and Chrome and Safari have broadly comparable standards compliance).

If FirefoxOS is to be truly standards compliant that means it will be unable to do a single thing that other platforms can't also do in their respective standards compliant web browsers (and if no other browser implements it then it's not much of a standard). So where is the additional value from FirefoxOS? It's just an OS that is by definition less functional than every other OS.

Before anybody chimes in pointing out all the misleading PR from Apple and Google and Microsoft, yes I'm aware of that, but they are for profit companies and don't claim to be working for the betterment of mankind. If to compete with them you also have to coat everything in a glaze of PR bullshit then how are you any better than them, other than that your bullshit has a slightly different consistency that makes it easier to swallow for some people.

<comment><USER12> Easy there killer, not all API's are going to be flushed out full W3C recommendations for v1. These things take time. Be patient. There is nothing on that page that suggests any of the WebAPIs "are not planned to be made available for other platforms." In fact, under process it says "The goal is to standardize all APIs."

<comment><USER12> Also, Samsung has been contributing patches to WebKit for Tizen such as Battery Status, Network Info, Vibration, and more. So the implementation and standardization process is well on its way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Finally, more app support for my WebOS devices!

That wasn't sarcasm, I'm legitimately excited.

<comment><USER14> I feel like Enyo, and WebOS itself, are really under-appreciated. I've built a few apps with Enyo, and it's an absolute treat to use.

Plus, WebOS is still here -- I almost feel like people are actively _ignoring_ it: trying to sweep it under the rug whenever its mentioned. Truthfully, I'll be sad if Firefox OS gains traction, because WebOS did all of this years ago.

<comment><USER3> Well, WebOS did it in secret and built their own walled garden of "web" APIs, sadly. That may or may not be why it never got traction. Either way, if you built a WebOS app then it won't run anywhere else today. With Firefox OS, Mozilla at least has used standard HTML5 everywhere that it made sense to. Granted, WebOS began its design a long time ago in web years.

<comment><USER14> > _Either way, if you built a WebOS app then it won't run anywhere else > today._

That's not very true. Any HTML5/JS app built for WebOS 3.0+ (when Mojo was depreciated, and Enyo brought in) can run in any browser; if it uses WebOS- specific API calls (most often used for notifications), then it can be wrapped in PhoneGap/Cordova and compiled for nearly any OS.

<comment><USER3> Correct. Now you have a PhoneGab app not a WebOS app :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> How hard is it to transition an add on for Firefox to an app for Firefox os?</comment>


Coinbase is down. - <AUTHOR> https://coinbase.com

<comment><USER2> I am new users of CoinBase. I personally have almost all my orders cancelled since last Monday. Customer service is not responding.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just dropped $200 and I can't do anything about it.

</comment><comment><USER3> Works for me now.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's been down intermittently for the last hour or so and was working for a few minutes... It's down again though.</comment></comment>


How we're going to hire our next web developer - <AUTHOR> http://cykod.com/blog/post/2010-04-how-were-going-to-hire-our-next-web-developer

<comment><USER2> I don't know anything about the company, but the only thing this would tell me is they don't care enough their hiring process to check the form. I'd see this as one of those companies that puts up a form to look like they're really busy and hiring, but just for show. I wouldn't take them seriously. It says more about the company appearing to have zero attention to detail than it does about my abilities. That's just me though. I like the idea of having a cool little test to filter developers, but this doesn't appeal to me as the way to do it.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, maybe if it was outright stated that it was a challenge instead of an error. Not much different than a "normal" code puzzle/challenge at that point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If it looks like a duck[1], and quacks like a duck, why would I go looking for a cow[2]?

Without explicitly knowing this was a test, I would think this company's developers were just sloppy. Sorry, but I don't think this will go to prove anything about a developer's abilities. Sure, maybe some quality web developers might "pass the test," but I'd wager just as many—if not more—would roll their eyes and go elsewhere.

[1] server-side error [2] client-side error

</comment><comment><USER5> terrible way to filter quality developers... why not just post an open test instead...?</comment>


Twitter Hiding my Tweets, Ignoring Support Requests. - <AUTHOR> UPDATE: It seems it is a new "Twitter feature" called "Best Tweets First" that hides tweets in some cases. Seems a good feature lol..
My Twitter Account is @thestubborndev. My tweets no more appear in the various hashtags timelines but only in my profile and to persons who are following me, making Twitter completely useless.
I asked Twitter explanations yesterday and they are ignoring me, continuing to answer other users questions on their @Support account. <comment><USER2> Twitter does not have a chronological feed. Same as facebook. If you want to use Hashtags to be found you may want Instagram.

<comment><AUTHOR> I know how Twitter works, thank you. I always used the chronological feed using the All Tweets/Live section. I always found my tweets there until yesterday. Now timeline just skips my tweets.

<comment><USER2> Well then Twitters algos probably concluded that you are not relevant enough. Looking at the numbers on your profile this seems likely.</comment></comment></comment>


Andrew Higgins loved bourbon, cursed a lot and built the boats that won D-Day - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/06/06/d-days-hero-andrew-higgins-loved-bourbon-cursed-a-lot-and-built-the-boat-that-won-wwii/ <comment><USER2> Higgins' boats are well known. Hundreds of thousands of WWII vets rode in them, after all.

D-Day was a triumph of logistics and planning. Eisenhower, in overall charge, was a logistics guy, which was exactly what was needed. D-Day was just the beginning of the invasion. The purpose of D-Day was to establish beachheads through which larger armies could be landed and then supported. The support function was key. Without extensive logistic support, the heroics necessary to force a hostile landing were pointless. The Dieppe and Dunkirk failures had clearly established this. Eisenhower delayed D-Day until huge support resources had been built up.

There were Higgins boats, in both infantry and tank sizes. There were Dual Drive tanks, Sherman tanks which could float, sort of, for a short while. (Many didn't make it to the beach, but those that did meant the troops had armor on their side.) There were "Hobart's Funnies", tanks with strange attachments to flail their way through minefields and barbed wire. There were the Mulberry temporary ports, sections floated over and sunk to create jetties to which cargo ships could dock and unload. Fuel pipelines were unrolled across the English channel to carry fuel in bulk.

In the later stages of the invasion, more and more support resources were ferried over and deployed. This included multiple mobile Coca-Cola bottling plants and mobile bakeries.

Eisenhower wrote that the conquest of Europe pretty much followed his original plan. Probably the greatest triumph of the waterfall method, ever.

<comment><USER3> > multiple mobile Coca-Cola bottling plants

seriously?

<comment><USER4> Coke men were given a lot of privileges during WW2. There is an entire section of "For God, Country and Coca-Cola" which is about this. Coca-Cola basically pledged to provide Coke for the soldiers everywhere they went. It was a publicity triumph, and also helped make sure Coke could keep getting the sugar they needed during ww2.

Source: I work at Coca-Cola (a bottler in Japan), but mostly this book: [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203586.For_God_Country_a...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203586.For_God_Country_and_Coca_Cola)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _Higgins was not native to the South, despite his love of bourbon._

That's because it's a delicious spirit. It's whiskey after all, the essence of beer.

Speaking of which, I recently had a Sierra Nevada Barrel-Aged "Islay Fog". I happen to have found it delicous, but regardless, its manufacture is quite interesting if you think about it.

In case you aren't aware, American whiskey is aged in new oak barrels whose insides have been charred. Those barrels are then sent to Scotland, where they are used to age Scotch whisky. In the case of Scotch from the island of Islay, the malted barley is toasted over a peat fire, which is what gives Islay Scotches their distinctive smokey flavor.

So here we have an American beer that was aged in a barrel formerly used to age Islay Scotch, formerly used to age Bourbon, imparting a peat flavor. A barrel traveled twice across the Atlantic, and is probably at least a dozen years old, and held three different alcohols, just so I could have a delicous drink.

<comment><USER6> Hear, hear. I'm a bit of a Scotch anorak and I do love my beer & bourbon as well.

The importance of the casks cannot be understated I believe; American Oak/Bourbon casks are a wonderful, core part of the whisky experience, though there are other types of casks that are used (sherry casks have been in vogue of late, for example).

Your final point, which I construe ultimately to be about the nature of trade that made the Bourbon, the Scotch, and the Beer, is well taken and is a true wonder of trade's relationship to the enhancement of humanity (qua man). It naturally also reminds me of George Thorogood and leaves me to ponder that his song could all have been sourced from the same barrel. Hmm.....

<comment><USER7> I had never heard the word 'anorak' used that way before. Thank you for enlightening me.

Anorak

1\. A kind of heavy jacket

2\. Someone considered boring because of their obsessive hobby or narrow solitary interests

<comment><USER6> My understanding is that the second meaning (which my wife agrees with in full) comes from train spotters in the UK who would wear their anoraks whilst in the field.

Of course, Scotch being an obsessive hobby could also just be called alcoholism... but that's a entirely different comment thread :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Put a day aside (seriously, a FULL day) and visit the WWII museum next time you're in New Orleans. I believe it's built on the location of the Higgins Boat factory.

</comment><comment><USER9> Anyone else notice that the press seems to be dredging HN for stories? I saw this same basic story posted here a week or so ago from a different (non- press) site. Forgive my inability to find a link to it.

<comment><USER10> Maybe [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14392632](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14392632)? More likely WaPo got it from that site. At least I'd be surprised if they got it from HN.

You're right that that was a better submission, though. Obscure, substantive, curiosity-gratifying... the best.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It will be robotic boats next time. They'll be small and numerous. The smaller they are, the less likely they'll be attacked themselves and the more likely they'll sink the opposing "battleboats".

<comment><USER12> Interesting speculation. What's it based on?

<comment><USER13> "Zerg swarms" of smaller, less expensive, easily replaceable ships have trounced our carrier battle groups in at least one high-profile war game we conducted a few years ago. At the time, I think we assumed these were little more than manned, modestly weaponized, high-speed cigarette boats.

It's reasonable to speculate that drone swarms will become a real thing, probably very soon. Will they replace aircraft carriers? Not for decades, unless we stumble into a war and get humiliated by an enemy swarm. (For what it's worth, I think we've become so arrogant that another military humiliation in our lifetimes is almost a certainty. But now I'm editorializing.)

But again, this seems so reasonable as to almost seem inevitable. When you no longer have to worry about feeding, accommodating, and protecting human sailors, it's pretty amazing how much smaller, faster, cheaper, and more performant your ships can get.

<comment><USER14> Perhaps true for amphibious assaults, but like you said, it won't replace aircraft carriers. Or submarines. Minimum size requirement on launching airplanes with weapons and fuel. And minimum size on nuclear reactor and ICBMs. Oh, and you'll want really nice artillery, so keep around the battleships.

<comment><USER15> Maybe I'm missing the joke. There aren't any battleships in the navy anymore, are there? Submarines will be around as long as they ensure MAD.

I worry carriers will be like ships of the line after the invention of iron hulls. Huge investment instantly obsolete by new technology. The u.s. Is in a great position to repeat the British empire's mistakes.

<comment><USER14> > There aren't any battleships in the navy anymore, are there?

That's correct. To your earlier point :), post-Cold War consensus is that the traditional battleship should be replaced by destroyers with modern targeting capabilities.

So the US Navy is somewhat in between ships for naval gunfire support.

The Zumwalt-class destroyers [1] were supposed to take over here but that's been a bit of boondoggle.

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt- class_destroyer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Now these amphibious boats drive tourists around in cities like Boston and Seattle, occasionally causing bad accidents because they're the only military vehicles on the road.

</comment><comment><USER17> It's always fascinating to learn how things came about, especially how a war machine is supplied, and how individuals can make such great impacts

</comment><comment><USER18> Air superiority won D-Day.

<comment><USER18> Which is the reason the US fought for air superiority first in any conflict after WW2.</comment></comment>


Internap Compromised - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.com/QxTkx3yf

<comment><USER2> Linode customer data breach all over again. Guess the new fraud prize is attacking hosting companies since they aren't encrypting customer data.

I try to only use hosts that accept bitcoin, and if they don't accept bitcoin then I buy a prepaid visa with fake name + address or disposable paypal. Not because I'm doing anything shady, but because I'd rather not have my identity stolen from garbage management panel software these hosting companies use.

Lately I've been hosting everything with bsws.de, which is owned by Henning Brauer, pf developer @Openbsd. Every machine isolated on vlan with pf firewall and nobody can access unencrypted customer data because it's not unencrypted.</comment>


The Cult Books That Lost Their Cool - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20190920-the-cult-books-that-lost-their-cool <comment><USER2> This review is written in the style of "Books that are not politically correct anymore."

<comment><USER3> Good summary. Nothing factual to see here, just another identity politic screed about books this individual either disagrees with or has never read.

I'm not even sure about the premise of the article. Using the editorial "we", the author projects that no self-respecting reader today could possibly imagine why books written decades ago might have been popular. Strange.</comment></comment>