Show HN: WerdMerge: A Portmanteau Generator With Phonemes - <AUTHOR> http://www.werdmerge.com/ <comment><USER2> I was extremely confused at first because I put in two words in the input box, and clicking 'merge' would do nothing. When I see 'merge', I expect that it will somehow merge the two words I've entered. You should change that button or at least add some text so it's a little more obvious what's going on. Or maybe add some code to alert the user that only one word is expected if/when they enter two.

<comment><AUTHOR> psh whatever

jk, i added it, per your request ;)

<comment><USER3> You should change the button from "merge" to....something else. "Go" "See results" heck, even "submit" would be better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> When I think of notable portmanteaus e.g. chortle, chillax they don't often fit with the formula of matching whole phonemes at the end of the first word and the beginning of the second (Chortle uses the first phoneme, the middle phoneme of word two, then back to word one to finish).

That said, the werdmerge discovered concept of a chillaxative made me chortle a bit.

</comment><comment><USER5> If you're getting your phonemes from an IPA dictionary, couldn't you check for emphasis too?

Seems like you'd want to match words that begin and end in weak syllables, e.g. Beethoven + veneer = Beethoveneer (overwrought, superficially emotional music).

You can also pair strong syllables: sorbet + Bayes = Sorbayes (dessert ordered on the condition that real ice cream is unavailable).

But putting a weak last with a strong first wrong-foots you: Beethovunforgiven.

EDIT: in case it sounds like I'm nitpicking, I love this.

<comment><AUTHOR> the hardest part about this site for me was finding a good dictionary of words->phonemes... unfortunately what i found did not come with emphasis. if you want to try to find a better dictionary for me i'd check it out. good luck though with the way google's search is these days ;?j

<comment><USER6> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_Thesaurus#Pronunciator> ? I had a similar idea a while back, using this as a resource, but no time to do it :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> i made this to brainstorm domain names

<comment><USER7> This is a great idea. I like the name, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> this is cool but i'm not sure i get how the input affects the output? the results don't seem related.

<comment><AUTHOR> you put in a word, and then it finds words that overlap phonetically in the front and in the back (left and right side of the page)...

<comment><USER8> my confusion i think stems from the fact that it looks like the results (with the star above) on the bottom happen when i was hitting the merge button (with two words in the box). when in fact the results are not the seemingly random one at the bottom.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> There's a small, recent scholarly literature on this in computational linguistics, referring to these as "lexical blends". This journal article is the most prominent publication, I believe: [http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/coli.2010.36...](http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/coli.2010.36.1.36104) . The first author, Paul Cook, did a dissertation on them.

</comment><comment><USER10> haha disobeethoven and laundromatrimony!

so the stars favorite things / make them show up at bottom?

<comment><USER11> I got computerus...

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> What exactly does clicking on the star do? Is there any way to get it to show how the merged word would be spelled?

<comment><AUTHOR> clicking a star votes for a combination. top voted combinations show up at the bottom of the page.

showing how a merge would be spelled is a pretty tough problem. if anyone had any clever ideas about this, i'd love to hear it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> You might consider adding a popup or a footer note that describes what the stars with exclamation points do. My guess is that they either report a profane word or bookmark a word combination, but I couldn't tell you for sure. Clicking on one didn't give me much either.

</comment><comment><USER14> Using Opera 11 -- the text in the box doesn't auto-erase when I go to type something in.

This is super cool, though.

</comment><comment><USER15> Was 'wordmanteau' already taken?

<comment><USER10> Yeah 'word' does seem preferable to 'werd'.

> whois wordmanteau.com No match for "WORDMANTEAU.COM".

<comment><USER16> Except no one knows how to spell portmanteau or its derivatives.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Fun - it really brings out my juvenile side:

We denydealized a few crapplicants for bonership.

<comment><AUTHOR> those are all great domain names!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> dominosebleed

<comment><USER18> be careful with your phrasing i'm semanticklish. you can't be such a cavalyricist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Slightly disappointed that entering "hardcore" didn't bring up favourites like "bardcore" or "wizardcore".

Still, pretty great!</comment>


Man Googles himself, finds he's among 'Most Wanted,' and promptly surrenders - <AUTHOR> http://blog.sfgate.com/crime/2014/03/14/man-googles-himself-finds-hes-among-most-wanted-and-promptly-surrenders/

<comment><USER2> How is this relevant to HN?</comment>


There are over a billion outdated Android devices in use - <AUTHOR> https://danluu.com/android-updates/ <comment><USER2> With current and older devices working perfectly well, and new devices being even less serviceable and more user-hostile with greater efforts towards planned obolescence, is it any wonder that people just aren't "upgrading" any more? I don't consider this a problem, but a sign of an ecosystem that is gaining stability. In fact I'd say it's even better, from an e-waste perspective, that the amount of churn has decreased.

Even in the low-end/unbranded devices, I'm seeing a gradual removal of hardware features and general lack of parts (screens, cases, etc.) availability, while replacement parts for models several years old are still plentiful.

<comment><USER3> Security, basically. If you care about your privacy, you should care about security (can't have one with the other). You need updated phone for that.

<comment><USER4> Security isn't as big of an issue with many of these devices as you might think. Unless it is years out of date, Play Services still gets updates, the system web view still gets updated, Chrome still gets updates, and in many cases the vendor will still roll out an emergency patch if there is something serious.

<comment><USER5> That's a huge guessing game, though - remember StageFright? You could have a phone with an up to date Chrome, up to date Play Services, and still be trivially exploited simply by viewing a standard video file. (Not to mention wondering which of your apps uses an out of date embedded web view)

I would submit that the number of people qualified to safely make (and update) that risk assessment is extremely small, and all of them would recommend updating to a version which patches problems rather than hoping you can dance around them.

<comment><USER4> StageFright was patched on a LOT of devices that "no longer received updates". The concern with embedded web views is overrated, as Android actually updates those via Play Services now.

For all of the talk of how awful this is, actual exploits are almost unheard of.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I often get sympathetic comments for being an Android developer because of this. It's honestly not that bad. Android provides backwards compatible support libraries for whatever SDK you're supporting, and was designed from the beginning to handle diverse screen sizes and hardware.

By far a bigger problem is manufacturers shipping their own version of Android that is sometimes incompatible with the SDK. I've had to implement some ugly hacks for Samsung before, which is unfortunate because of how popular their hardware is. It's becoming less of a problem over time though.

<comment><USER7> The problem with outdated versions is not app compatibility, but security updates. If a zero-day were released, most of these devices would never receive an update fix the issue.

Worst case scenario: An Android zero day that can be spread via WiFi or Bluetooth that infects devices in a cryptolocker style. The more versions it can affect, the better.

Shoot. Probably shouldn't give people ideas, especially when I have an Android device. At least it runs LineageOS and can be updated easily...

Edit: To clarify my idea, imagine the Windows XP crypolocker viruses, but for Android instead, spreading not through cell towers or WiFi routers, but instead spreading via the cellular/WiFi/Bluetooth chips in the devices.

I'm starting to wonder if I should buy a portable Faraday cage for my devices...

<comment><USER8> It's _also_ a problem with compatibility. Just because they've found a reasonable way to mostly work around it (by basically bundling an up-to-date version of the framework into each app) doesn't mean it isn't an issue. Not everything is in the support library.

But I agree, at this point the security issues are a bigger concern.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The flipside of this is that developers are forced to support versions of their apps that are compatible with previous operating systems. That's bad for developers, but good for consumers.

iPhones shove updates down your throat as a user. They're so persistent that inevitably most people will accept the new update - and even if you're stubborn like me, eventually your apps will no longer be supported under the newer OS's, and you are forced to update to keep using them. The problem is that the OS upgrades invariably slow down older phones, so even if you're perfectly happy with your iPhone to begin with, it starts to act slow as it gets the newer OS's. It's good that Android users can at least avoid this particular kind of planned obsolescence

<comment><USER2> _That 's bad for developers, but good for consumers._

Is it? I'm a developer --- _and_ a consumer, as are most --- and have always kept to the principle of as much compatibility as possible, mostly by not gorging on new features for the sake of new features, and a "do what you can with what you have" approach. To me, spending a little extra effort to get much more compatibility is well worth it, since I've been on "the other side" and know the horrible experience of not being able to use something just because the developer didn't bother to think about anything but the "new and shiny"; that seems to be something a lot of developers completely ignore or even oppose.

<comment><USER10> The QA effort to support 3-4 of the most recent OS's isn't "a little extra effort." It can get pretty expensive, too, since you may have to have devices for all supported OS versions and possibly idioms (e.g. iPhone, iPad).

<comment><USER11> If only Android devs only had to think about 3-4 of the most recent OSes...

There are outliers in either direction, but these days the minimum supported version tends to be either API Level 19 if you're conservative, with a stead shift towards ... API Level 21. For reference, Oreo is API Level 26.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hey, they used the data that I made available on my website here : [https://www.bidouille.org/misc/androidcharts](https://www.bidouille.org/misc/androidcharts)

Gathering the old data from archive.org snapshots was a pain, I'm glad I saved someone else the trouble :)

One thing that's missing from this data is the actual number of devices in circulation, as said in the article it's only the market share among Android devices, and only those which access the Play Store. Having access to that data would make the graphs much more interesting, but unfortunately I have no idea where to get it.

<comment><USER13> > _only those which access the Play Store_

I'll bet this means an enormous number of outdated devices outside the first world are missing. In particular, any area without cheap and reliable data access is probably eschewing the Play Store for some kind of local-area app sharing like Zapya.

Not your fault obviously, these are fascinating stats as is. But I'm also really curious how many smartphones have gone "off the grid" without being retired. Generalizing from Myanmar [1], I suppose Facebook's internal device data would be the best source.

[1] [https://craigmod.com/sputnik/smartphones_in_myanmar/](https://craigmod.com/sputnik/smartphones_in_myanmar/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The real problem with mobile devices is that it costs $600-$1000 for a security patch. And when you get it, you'll also be stuck with inferior hardware as a side effect of that very expensive security patch. A device that used to be multifunctional but now is no longer useful for phone calls, music, or videos because it doesn't have a headphone port. One that used to be mobile but now requires you to stay tethered to an outlet because you can no longer switch out to a spare battery. One that's even thinner and more likely to break.

People would like to be secure, but they shouldn't have to pay that much for a security patch and they don't want to downgrade their systems.

</comment><comment><USER15> > _If we look at the newest Android release (8.0, 8 /2017), it looks like > you're quite lucky if you have a two year old device that will get the > latest update. The oldest "Google" phone supported is the Nexus 6P (9/2015), > giving it just under two years of support._

And 2 years is the best-case scenario. Compare to nearly 5 years for iOS devices (which, as far as I can tell was prompted only by a move to 64-bit SoC). It's beyond me that Google hasn't taken a more extreme approach to keeping their devices up-to-date.

<comment><USER16> My Nexus 6P is eligible for 8.0 under the beta program, the last time I checked, 8.0 was still not available for it in the official channel so I had to switch to the beta program to try out 8.0 on a device.

<comment><USER17> 8.0 has officially been available for the Nexus 6P since August.

<comment><USER16> Thanks, exiting the beta program to see what happens now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I've got a 7 or 8 year old Google Nexus phone. Google stopped updating the OS 5 years ago. The only impact I've noticed is that newer apps won't run on and older OS. For me, however, that really isn't a problem since I use it for making and receiving calls and texts, and checking my email. Right now, I'm in no hurry to lay out hundreds for a new phone, Apple or Android, that will be obsoleted in just a couple years when the vendor abandons it.

<comment><USER19> The problem that you _don 't_ notice is the lack of _security_ updates.

<comment><USER20> Right? It may still largely be functional, but I would never trust that device in the open, it's just ripe for a bevy of attacks.

I really wish Google would expand their service lifetime on their own devices, because I feel 2 years is really too short.

<comment><USER21> Two years is completely too short, even three years if you purchase mid-cycle is not enough.

I own Nexus 5X's on Project Fi, one bootlooped and was replaced, the other still going strong after ~20months. I also have a Pixel XL acquired like 7 months ago, both of those should outlive the updates and giving Google the money directly, they should take care of their customers.

Far from an Apple fan boy, the 2016 MBP and 2017 iPad do not worry me about getting forgotten in the ever ongoing updates.

<comment><USER22> Two years is too short but once you get on the extended warranty loop you can basically get another 2/4 years of new phones on the cheap.

<comment><USER21> For the 5X's, the were a great deal, and it would cost more than the phone to get into the extended warranties. Not worth it for our purposes. As long as they keep working, we'll keep using them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> One fact I was not completely aware about: Even if you have updated your Android device with a Custom ROM (e.g. Lineage/Cyanogen) to a newer Android Version you most likely still have an old Kernel.

So yes, I am very happy that I can still run Android 7.1.2 on my 5 year old S3, but at the same time it runs on a 3.0 Linux kernel which was originally release in July 2011. As far as I know, that is because some drivers (e.g. the graphics driver) are closed source and are only available as binaries. Therefore, they were never properly integrated into the Linux kernel source and when the kernel changes nobody cares about them.

Yes, I know about the discussion about stable ABIs, but even with a stable ABI, I would still be stuck with an outdated buggy graphics drivers, because the kernel developers only care about source they can access.

To sum it up: I would like to have a product which does not only have an up- to-date userland software, but also a more or less current kernel.

<comment><USER24> I don't think they just drop in an older Linux kernel. I think Android is more like a Linux fork these days. The current version being based on an older/stable Linux kernel.

If Android updates never touched the kernel, how is it drivers break. They must be updating the kernel too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Love the HN crowd here explaining that staying still on old tech full of security holes is a-ok. :)

Both Android and iOS have made awesome progress on all fronts, from security to stuff like AR and ML.

You can now have a supercomputer in your pocket - just using it for phone/texts is such a waste.

<comment><USER26> > Love the HN crowd here explaining that staying still on old tech full of > security holes is a-ok. :)

It's disheartening when a forum full of supposed tech enthusiasts starts to morph into a bunch of paranoid tech Luddites. That is what, imho, killed slashdot. Every post was full of comments slamming anything new. Eventually it just got toxic and boring. Who wants to hear a bunch of paranoid outliers brag about their 8 year old phone on a forum like this?

The tech industry is constantly changing. If you can't handle it, you should go into something else...

<comment><USER27> Harsh tone but 100% warranted imo. It's fascinating to see so many otherwise smart people completely fail to understand the changes around them.

<comment><USER26> Its harsh because there is no way to sugar coat it. This post is full of people bragging about running 9 year old phones with ancient highly vulnerable operating systems. On the same forum that has people bragging about being child geniuses and making posts like "I'm assuming that just by reading HN you have an above average intelligence".

No. You don't get to claim you are "above average intelligence" when you brag about downloading OS updates off sketchy "community" forums and then make posts like "better than some faceless corporation". That isn't intelligent. That is just being stupid.

Ever hear of the dunning kruger effect? Some folks need to go read about it and then smack themselves upside the head.

Seriously. Paranoid tech ludditism is an eye rolling, tedious, boring circlejerk. Go back to your green screen gramps— I'm sure it is good enough for anything but I like my 4K color monitor, thanks.

...Keep that stuff out of tech forums because it is cancer. Sla

<comment><USER28> I am happy for you, that you can afford spending several hundred euros/dollars/yen/whatever every couple of years for OS updates.

Majority of us have better things in life to use our money for.

<comment><USER29> However, a large number of people on HN are software engineers who make their living writing software for these devices; it would seem like a crowd that loves tech like React "Native" might consider the latest devices somewhat important to their business. If developers are running old devices and old OSes, then it follows that they aren't developing around the latest capabilities because they themselves don't use the latest capabilities. For a "progressive" crowd, it sure seems like there are quite a few reactionaries.

This "keep my older device" argument makes perfect sense if you are an end- consumer but it makes no sense if your business is building software. Software developers ought to consider it a minimum requirement to be on the cutting edge. We should be leading the way and not doggedly hanging on to older tech.

If we were house painters, then running a 5 year old device makes no difference, but if we are supposed to be building the future, it's illogical to be obsessed, almost to a hipster-degree with running outdated equipment.

It's Jay-Z rocking an 8-track.

<comment><USER28> Just because I am a software engineer, doesn't mean I am willing to spend more than 600 euros every three years for the privilege of having an updated device.

That are more important things in life.

If Google wants us to actually use the latest features, then they should force OEM to upgrade to Treble and push to their devices.

Not to force us to buy an Oreo device, hoping that this time around OEMs will actually push updates on ALL devices.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Having to wait and sometimes pray for your vendor to ship an update is why I chose to stick to the Nexus line of phones until it ended.

My next device may or may not be a Pixel, but the above coupled with the shitty "value adds" like custom file managers and stuff that Samsung et al tend to cram into their already bloated Android implementations pretty much guarantees I'll never by a Samsung or similar.

My wife's Galaxy S3 was slow the day she got it, and it only went downhill from there, to the point that a spare BB Priv felt like an upgrade to her. At that point the Priv was already 2 years old.

edit: can someone explain the down votes? for real, I thought this was a pretty level headed comment. is it just that I dumped on Samsung?

<comment><USER31> As a long time Nexus user (back to Nexus S), the clean OS and updates were always the selling points for me.

With Pixel now dropping the headphone jack, I'm starting to look elsewhere. Here's hoping I get some more life yet out of my 5X.

<comment><USER32> Make sure you are regularly backed up. Anecdote, but I bootlooped -- that's with quite gentle care. Friend bootlooped a couple of weeks later.

<comment><USER33> Second that. I bought three Nexus 5x for me and my family. Two of those bricked themselves without warning.

Plus I keep reading these stories over and over again. Multiple anecdotes in the discussion to this article alone...

Both got repaired (mainboard replaced) under warranty without issue. I'm still happy with the phone and haven't found anything comparable considering the price (270€ approx. 1 year after release), but you definitely need to have a solid backup strategy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Does this seem like a trend that goes beyond just tech products? Clothes, appliances, furniture (with fiberboard) all seem to have lower longevity today, whether it's from lacking updates/service or just lacking durability.

<comment><USER35> Might by survivorship bias. You only remember old furniture that survived long enough for you to see it...

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I still have Nexus 7 running on KitKat 4.2 as I dislike material look and for newer Android versions I always go with phones that ship with customized UI that better correspond to my aesthetics sense. Disclaimer: I am a visual artist as well and hate it when somebody enforces certain style, in my case anything flat, low-contrast, confusing where my brain has to spend >20ms identifying controls.

<comment><USER37> Are you concerned at all with security of the device? Just asking because I know lots of people who stick with older droids and none seem to care.

<comment><USER38> Old device user here. The frequency of exploits is going up, so older devices with few features and small attack surface are safer than new devices with the bells and whistles and a bigger attack surface. Basically, fuck you to the assholes pushing updates. They are doing it wrong and I reject them. I will accept no update with antifeatures, no matter how much they say it is good for me.

<comment><USER37> The old device runs a complete browser with network access and daemons etc. It seems like all of the bells and whistles were already around for quite some time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> That's why I only buy phones that are supported by LineageOS (usually second hand). Not ideal, but it's the best I've found so far.

I guess paying $150 for a fully up-to-date phone that was worth $700 just two years ago isn't such a bad deal.

<comment><USER40> The last time I tried to install LineageOS on my phone I had to execute a non- reproducible binary of some anonymous haxxor to flash the OS. I remember I could have build my own image from source, but the only documentation was spread over a thread on a message board with a couple hundred pages... and if you screw your build you brick your device.

<comment><USER39> You never have to do that if you choose your phones well.

<comment><USER40> How do you flash LineageOS onto a well chosen phone? Don't you need something like TWRP?

<comment><USER39> Yes, you usually flash TWRP, then Lineage.

<comment><USER40> And how did you build TWRP from source or where do you get a reproducible TWRP build from? When I checked some month ago, there was pretty much no documentation available on how to build TWRP from source for my phone. The pre-build TWRP binaries were not reproducible.

<comment><USER39> I just use the prebuilt binaries. But saying it comes from "some anonymous haxxor" isn't fair to TWRP. The situation is no different from the vast majority of binaries we run (unless if you run gentoo maybe, but if you don't audit all sources I don't see how this adds value).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> > We've seen that Android devices appear to be getting more out of date over > time. This makes it difficult for developers to target "new" Android API > features, where new means anything introduced in the past few years.

This used to be more of a problem, but the support library deals with this more nowadays. Not for every change and new feature, but for most of them.

<comment><USER42> If don't mind answering, I'd love it if you could provide an example or two of features that are implementable enough with support libraries, but would be a pain to build without them.

<comment><USER43> [https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/layout/recycle...](https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/ui/layout/recyclerview.html)

[https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/media/exoplayer.h...](https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/media/exoplayer.html)

RecyclerViews are only implemented in the support libraries, even for newer versions of Android. I haven't used Exoplayer personally but by reputation it does all of the hard media stuff for you.

<comment><USER44> I don't believe that's the kind of feature being talked about. Rather than new controls, I think they're talking more about new things to do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> The obvious thing to say is to just get a Nexus/Pixel device and enjoy your updates but I'm sure this isn't an option for some people.

I think the best thing that you can do to ensure you still get security updates is either make sure you get a device with an unlocked bootloader or hope there's a root exploit available so you can put something like LinageOS[1] on it.

I picked up an Essential Phone (on the cheap) for the former even though they appear to be getting timely updates so far (one day behind pixel) if you're willing to sideload with adb (and promises of support for 3 years). Also managed to grab it for < $150 TOTAL (sprint lease after buyout on day 1). They really seem to want to offload some of the stock.

I don't think I'll ever buy an android phone that's not a pixel (formerly nexus) that's not unlocked again.

[1] [https://lineageos.org/](https://lineageos.org/)

Edit: On second thought some of what I wrote is probably not correct[2].

[2] [https://twitter.com/CopperheadOS/status/852833915073056769](https://twitter.com/CopperheadOS/status/852833915073056769)

<comment><USER46> >The obvious thing to say is to just get a Nexus/Pixel device and enjoy your updates

... for 2 years.

<comment><USER45> It's 3 years now with the Pixel. The Google branded devices have always received timely updates. That's the only point I was trying to make. I'm not saying this is ideal, just pointing it out.

Also unless you get the Verizon version it's going to be unlocked so you can load whatever you want on it.

<comment><USER47> Nexus 5x and 6p was always 2 years of Android version updates plus another year of security. They have recently increased that by a month or two.

[https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en](https://support.google.com/nexus/answer/4457705?hl=en)

Add me to the list of Nexus users who like plain Android with guaranteed updates but don't really want to pay $650+ for our next phone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Perhaps the real problem is sloppy development practices that make staying up to date so important.

Unfortunately, nothing is going to change because the companies making these phones (and other software based products) see it as a way to drive sales.

<comment><USER49> It's even more fundamental than that. The world is built on C and C++, both of which were designed a long time ago and without safety and security in mind.

<comment><USER48> That's true, but it is actually possible to write C and C++ safely, it's just really difficult and really expensive and requires a lot of discipline, so it's not very fun.

So crappy code is cheaper to develop in the first place, and then companies can sell more down the line when new versions have bug fixes and security improvements. There's really no incentive to change anything.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Stop bundling antifeatures into security updates and maybe people will want them.

</comment><comment><USER50> Why software updates and especially security bug fixes are not covered by manufacturer warranty as it is with hardware issues? Or maybe they are but no one enforces that?

In other words if I buy a phone with 2y warranty (a standard duration in many European countries) it would be reasonable to expect that any security updates (device fixes) will be provided in a reasonable time within that period starting from the purchase date.

</comment><comment><USER51> My ye olde Samsung Galaxy S4 mini is better software supported at lineageos.org than Google or Samsung ever did. LineageOS even plan to support Anroid 8 on it!

It's better hardware supported at aliexpress.com than any other phone shop.

In its very small lifespan it has become the most modifyable hackable smartphone i've ever owned. :)

Sadly this is the only way to succesfully update my outdated Anroid device. :(

</comment><comment><USER52> Part of the reason for this mess is the greed of manufacturers, they want us to buy new devices every 2 years. Consider mid-range devices from OnePlus, Xiaomi and Samsung, these are intentionally sold at a lower price to users who like budget phones and if you would see the device manufacturer distribution list these devices top the list in number of units sold, this is especially true in developing countries. These phones seldom get updates after the (T + 2) cycle.

I hope that with introduction of project Treble this trend can be reversed, Google is literally forcing these greedy manufacturers to include Treble if they ship devices with Oreo and above, but this doesn't mean we will see updates as frequent as iOS anytime soon, one thing I observed lately is that after announcement of project Treble almost all manufacturers are releasing newer phones with Nougat 7.1, this is funny considering that it's mid November now and Oreo was released way back in August.

</comment><comment><USER53> Up until very recently if I had an old 386 I could still install modern Linux on it and use gnu apps.

Whereas if I have a 2 year old phone the official story is: no it totally doesn't work, throw it away.

This is garbage. Phones are a lot more powerful then that 386, what's different is no one is building to any reasonable standard. Kernel updates should just work.

</comment><comment><USER54> I'm one of those people. Still using US$100 Asus Zenfone 4, running Android K; with 8GB internal memory and 1GB RAM. My phone still looking and running good, no scratches, and no lags. I only use 1.56GB internal memory for apps, nothing fancy, just some apps that I truly need.

The reason I'm not considering to upgrade my Android is because of this article: It's The User Experience, Stupid.[0] I already see Android O in action, and some newest Android devices, but I don't think it's worth my money. So, I'm planning to keep using my 3 year old phone until it's dead.

[0]: [http://usabilitypost.com/2008/12/03/its-the-user- experience-...](http://usabilitypost.com/2008/12/03/its-the-user-experience- stupid/)

</comment><comment><USER55> Outdated device user here. (Android 6.0)

I bought a Google Nexus 5 so this wouldn't happen. But apparently it did anyway.

<comment><USER56> Flash some custom rom (LineageOS for example) and you'll have all the updates you want.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> I have a obscure low level Oppo device from Asia. Its hardly up to date, but it is still more than i need plus provides a 2 day battery life even after a year of using.

I think we just reached the point where phones grow in specs we dont actually need.

The thing is i use my phone mostly like a public wifi. Trust nothing.

<comment><USER58> What about security updates?

<comment><USER57> Oppo no have. But no seriously there still are some but AFAIK they stop next year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> See also: [https://androidvulnerabilities.org/](https://androidvulnerabilities.org/)

They used more fine grained tracking on vulnerabilities vs Android versions in the field. Shame they haven't kept updating it.

</comment><comment><USER60> I didn't see it in the article, and so I wonder what the country breakdown for this might be. I get the impression that in the developing world, where android has really taken off, the ability to receive updates is diminished.

<comment><USER61> Importantly, in China, the biggest Android market, none of the phones access the Play store, so that entire country will be omitted from the data. I'll bet they're not getting updates either.

</comment></comment><comment> Chiba-City I do not enjoy phones except for pocketable phone, camera and map. I still have an old stubbornly adequate Moto-G. Chromebooks are cheap lightweight browsing and light typing devices. They work better than fine with no surprises.

</comment><comment><USER62> This is why I will only ever buy the OnePlus brand at this point. I used to buy Nexus until they started skyrocketing the price (Ting user here) not to mention my last nexus bricked itself when the battery got low.

<comment><USER63> Is OnePlus good at updates?

With CopperheadOS going non-free, but still open, and Pixel getting an order of magnitude more expensive than Nexus I'm looking for alternatives to run LineageOS.

<comment><USER64> No it's not the one plus one was killed very quickly. Not to mention it has its own privacy concerns atm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> I have an old HTC Inspire (circa 2011) I still use in my kitchen to control a stereo system. I'm shocked anything on it still works. It's probably a terrible security vulnerability I should throw away.

<comment><USER66> I have a galaxy s2 skyrocket that I use for music in the childrens' room. It's fine as long as I don't reboot it. Takes like 8 reboots to get it to recognize the storage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> If it is a problem to update smartphones, I just don't want to imagine the nightmare that is going to be on our doorstep with IoT updates...

<comment><USER68> To borrow another quip -- the "U" in IoT stands for updates.

<comment><USER69> Just like the "S" in it stands for security.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> What do you guys think of Lineage OS and Open GApps?

I put them on an old Nexus 7 (2013) tablet, and they run well. How trustworthy are they though?

<comment><USER71> I'd strongly argue that they are more trustworthy than the crap that comes pre-installed on most phones by the manufacturer nowadays.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Those billion outdated devices are the low hanging fruit screening me and my fully updated iOS device. I can be confident that casual attackers aren't coming after me, only the higher tier ripoff artists gunning for iOS users and the APTs who are attacking my company specifically.

<comment><USER73> No, with certainty your private information has already been stolen or sold once or even multiple times. Equifax is just the hack you know about. Insider threats are common and your identity is surely sitting in some giant tarball that is bought and sold. Until society reboots you with a new SSN, new credit score, new drivers license...you are already compromised.

In ten years will there even be a single US citizen whose private data is wholly uncompromised? Doubtful

This is the ultimate data slavery...unable to protect our identifying strings...and unable to repudiate them when they are compromised. My SSN is compromised and I am stuck with it for another fifty years...same as you. Enjoy your phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> Anecdotally, vendor released Android 7 for my phone some time spring 2017 - not the worst case. Although, OTA update fails. The only path to upgrade my phone is manually flash OS image and lose all data. I'm still running 6 ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

</comment><comment><USER75> Another interesting iOS and Android comparison: _all_ fully supported iOS devices on the latest OS -- back to the 2013 iPhone 5S -- are 64-bit. On the Android side, almost none are 64-bit. Everything besides ARM7 is a rounding error.

</comment><comment><USER76> With the sheer number of outdated devices still in use, one wonders what the real world rates of hacks look like.

I don't think that the two are linearly proportional at all unless individuals or groups are being specifically targeted.

</comment><comment><USER77> I'd like to buy an Android Ereader - there are a few but they're all on Android 4.x, is there a reason for that? I'm guessing its licensing not technical but I'm not sure.

</comment><comment><USER78> Updated my 5s a few days back. Touch ID stopped working and refuse to activate (error message). Spotlight no longer finds the Calculator app. App titles, like Messages, have become larger and hence takes up more space. When I slide an app up to close it, the animation indicating a close triggers, but the app pops back up, so I have to do that gesture twice now to actually close apps. There's more but I'm typing on my phone and that's horrible.

</comment><comment><USER79> I think Google, Apple, Samsung et.al should be upfront on when they plan to end of life (EOL) their devices. Many devices now a day is SaaS with a upfront cost. So divide the cost of the phone with how long it will be supported, then you'll get the monthly cost. Guys! We need a fully open source smart-phone that can be community supported forever! Why isn't there on yet ?

<comment><USER80> > I think Google, Apple, Samsung et.al should be upfront on when they plan to > end of life (EOL) their devices.

iOS 11 (released in 2017) is compatible with these devices [1]:

\- iPhone 5s (released on September 20, 2013)

\- iPad mini 2 (released on November 12, 2013)

\- iPod touch 6th generation (released on July 15, 2015)

Apple doesn't have to be upfront. Apple users know that the support lasts for years (iOS 10 was released in 2016 and oldest supported device was from 2012, iOS 9: 2015 and 2011, previous versions would usually support three-year old devices).

[1] [https://www.apple.com/lae/ios/ios-11/](https://www.apple.com/lae/ios/ios-11/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER81> I have an old-ish Android tablet and have no idea how to update it. I tried and quickly gave up.

</comment><comment><USER82> My problem is some independent first movers made great games for the Android, then were force off by slow-to-market game owners - who then produce junk "official versions" of the same games - all under the guise of security concerns. To get their way they used the LAW (UCC ) Now we have to have constant update checks for copyright,trademark,look & feel, and anything else they can use of themselves ( like echo,google home, vs independent home automation) or (cloud vs X-drive ) xor (academic library vs paywall library where every student pays for public domain information) rip Aaron Swartz

</comment><comment><USER83> How are they not all zombies or hit by ransomware?

</comment><comment><USER84> how is postmarketos doing ?

</comment><comment><USER73> For most users, the phone works and they don't care.

For everyone in my family, iOS updates are just an annoyance.

<comment><USER85> Yes, I think user apathy has to be a big part of it.

I have a 2012 iPhone5 with iOS 6.1.3 still on it. I never upgraded it. When iOS 7 came out, all the news reports said it killed the battery. Same with iOS 8, 9, and finally iOS X.

Yes, I assume that eventually, iOS point release 7.x.x fixed the battery issue but I don't care to keep visiting news websites to figure out which exact version is finally "safe" to upgrade. I don't want to be a slave to the housekeeping of my phone.

Others say the news reports are alarmist -- all one has to do after a new iOS release is to dig into the settings and disable all the new features/polling/etc that eats up the battery. But it's the same situation -- I don't want to put the effort into learning "what's new" that I have to disable.

On the other hand, I'll quickly upgrade major releases of MS Visual Studio from VS2015 to VS2017, or upgrade Webstorm from 2016 to 2017.

I was puzzled over my contradictory approaches to updating software. I think I figured it out: my phone feels like an "appliance" to me instead of a computer and I don't want to mess it up. Another reason is that Apple won't let me pick an exact version to upgrade. I can't pick iOS 7.1.2 -- I'm forced to upgrade to the buggy iOS X or nothing at all.

As a result, I have willingly performed an "IE6" legacy lobotomy on my iPhone.

(As trivia, I also notice that iPhone5s on ebay that still have iOS 6 sell for a slightly higher premium.)

<comment><USER86> It doesn't help that "upgrading" an iOS device is a one-way ticket.

Religiously updating the original iPad effectively bricked it (not literally, but to all intents and purposes) years ahead of its natural lifetime, due to one particular major release that killed performance, reliability and battery life in one fell swoop.

If there no going back, why would you risk going forward?

<comment><USER87> Security fixes, new features, etc.?

<comment><USER88> If you risk losing the old features, that probably doesn't sound too attractive to most people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> I wonder if Google will brag about _that_ number at its next I/O event. "We're now at 1.3 billion outdated Android devices in-use" \- _Applause_

I've lost hope that Google will ever do anything meaningful about this situation, when they can't even approach the iPhone in updates when their very own Pixel devices. This is despite now having a standard hardware abstraction framework for their devices and having a kernel that will be supported for 6 years. Even so, they can't commit to updating their devices for the time these devices for at least 80% of their lifecycles.

What's a smartphone lifecycle? Well it's certainly not 2 years. The 2 year old phones will not just be thrown into the garbage. They'll either be sold on second hand markets or they'll be given to other family members, who will then use it for at least another 2 years themselves.

Google, and really all makers of "smart" devices, should be supporting hardware at least until only 10-20% of those devices remain in active use. Kind of like how Microsoft couldn't quit supporting Windows XP when it was at 20%, even though it was already like 12 years old. Only when Windows XP got to below 10% or something, Microsoft stopped supporting it for consumers at least, and even then it will be supported until 2019 for enterprise customers.

Ideally this is how all devices should be supported - until they have fewer than 10% of the customers use them anymore. But as an absolute minimum, they should at least follow the 80/20 power Pareto principle, and update the devices until less than 20% of the people use them anymore.

I know this logic isn't totally alien to Google because they are applying it to the supported OS versions by their Play services and APIs for Android.

If 25% of the Pixel 2 devices (which come with Project Treble and a 6-year supported LTS kernel) are still in active use after 3 years, then Google should be supporting the Pixel 2 for at least 4 years (at least with security patches). But as I said, this should be the bare minimum, like something I'd expect from LG. Google should not stop support until fewer than 10% of the Pixel 2 users have stopped using it.

</comment><comment><USER89> The problem is not only with security, ok it's the first problem but there's plenty of device that can't do any job right now, event if I want use that mobile for a diy like camera, etc. most of the software no is no more compatible. I don't understand why we go so fast on the new device when the majority won't use that damn new API, and all these gadget UI are so damn useless. Like hearthstone, why didn't you optimize your game for less device do you really need to do a animation if my device don't support it? just don't display it!

</comment><comment><USER90> I don't see how they're "outdated" if they still work and are being used. So to me, something that doesn't work/isn't or can be used = outdated. There.

</comment><comment><USER91> The most effective way to solve this is to write a set of exploits that work on most devices. Then brick all the phones that are vulnerable.

Surely not nice, but users suddenly got cured of their complete apathy towards mobile phones.

<comment><USER19> That's not a solution, that is an exploitation of the problem.

The problem is that there _are_ security holes that _cannot_ be patched in the first place. There is no technical reason that for that to be the case, simply an arbitrary one: Manufacturers _do not_ allow users to unlock the bootloader on devices they sell.</comment></comment>


Open-endedness: The last grand challenge (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://www.oreilly.com/radar/open-endedness-the-last-grand-challenge-youve-never-heard-of/ <comment><USER2> This is really exciting to me, and I'm glad to see a new review. I was introduced to open-endedness as a motivator for interesting behavior by this Ted talk: [https://www.ted.com/talks/alex_wissner_gross_a_new_equation_...](https://www.ted.com/talks/alex_wissner_gross_a_new_equation_for_intelligence)

Edit: Adding relevant phrases, oddly absent from the O'Reilly article.

The Equation for Intelligence F = T ∇ Sτ

"Intelligence is a physical process that resists future confinement."

</comment><comment> j-pb The article completely understates the time scale and parralellism involved in evolution.

The only reason evolution didn't converge at some point to some equilibrium ecosystem is that the environment constantly shifts (sum activity, meteor strikes, volcanic erruptions).

If you want a GA to produce infinite diversity, have it run for insanely long times, insanely parallel, and constantly change it's evaluation function.</comment>


Coping with Flexbox - <AUTHOR> https://kgrz.io/coping-with-flexbox.html <comment><USER2> When you feel a lack of confidence or speed with of a tool you use frequently, it is easy to feel a mixture of frustration and shame.

That suffering might be due to an unmet desire: that you should get fluency but not require _training_. As a programmer, you might feel that human repetition is a sign that something needs to be built to prevent that repetition. But, if you talk to a teacher, sports coach, martial artist, or anyone else who works in the domain of training meat-based deep neural nets to solve problems _quickly_ and _confidently_ , you'll find this is false. If you are seeking a feeling of speed and confidence, embrace repetition.

Perhaps, play [https://flexboxfroggy.com/](https://flexboxfroggy.com/) 10 times.

<comment><USER3> There are lots of things people can do after being shown once. They'll go a at a measured pace, but need minor or zero help. Sports and marital art practice are all about getting sub-second decisions and extremely quick/smooth movements; none of that's relevant to writing something without feeling like a fool.

 _Maybe_ a tool like this necessarily needs a bunch of practice. Or maybe it's badly designed, and the experience should be more like chopping a carrot.

<comment><USER2> > Sports and marital art practice are all about getting sub-second decisions > and extremely quick/smooth movements; none of that's relevant to writing > something without feeling like a fool.

Some people expect their brain to answer a question like "I want to make this particular box's children evenly vertically-spaced. What is the name of the css property to google?" with a confident sub-second response. Some people, upon observing that they can't, feel like a fool.

For those people, it _is_ relevant.

\</comment></comment></comment><comment>--

> Maybe a tool like this necessarily needs a bunch of practice. Or maybe it's > badly designed, and the experience should be more like chopping a carrot.

I'd like to live in a world where every tool thats the best for a job is well- designed.

I'd also like to live in a world every message I try to communicate is one that people pay attention to and understand in the spirit I intended, even if I never edit it.

I'd also like to live in a world where my lumbar region is pain-free, even if I don't regularly do squats.

\</comment><comment>---

The author's words about his pain points are still valuable. Systems should be improved. They can't be improved unless problems are made clear. There is much broken in the world and many of us have taken up the call to fix it and we should heed the words of others' frustration.

But there is much broken in the world that won't get fixed anytime soon.

</comment><comment><USER4> When I was learning Flexbox, I've created a graphical cheatsheet [1] (based on another one) that I've printed out and put next to my computer. It helped me a lot back then.

[1] [https://darekkay.com/dev/flexbox- cheatsheet.html](https://darekkay.com/dev/flexbox-cheatsheet.html)

<comment><USER5> That's the most succinct quick reference I've found on this (I've always had trouble digesting the css-tricks article). Have you thought about making a similar cheatsheet for Grid?

<comment><USER4> Thanks! I did not, but you might have a look at this cheatsheet: [http://grid.malven.co/](http://grid.malven.co/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Firefox Inspector has useful visualizations for flexbox containers: [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Tools/Page_Inspecto...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Tools/Page_Inspector/How_to/Examine_Flexbox_layouts) And another useful feature that shows indicators why some CSS properties are not working.

<comment><USER7> Thanks, I use Firefox and didn't know about this. It's interesting, but seems like it'd be most useful if you were actually using flex basis and not that helpful for just basic justification and alignment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Once flexbox understanding kicks-in, it becomes the most efficient way to create layouts by far.

<comment><USER9> I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Flexbox is good for some types of layout, but it's frustrating how often it gives you most of what you want but then there is no tidy way to get the final details right.

For example, I was recently implementing a "small multiples" layout, showing many small charts of the same type, with the exact number depending on context. This seems like an ideal use case for flexbox: you can make good use of your available screen width, with everything lining up neatly, even spacing, but still wrapping to extra rows as needed.

Alas, it doesn't always work quite like that. For example, suppose that we have a display that is wide enough to fit five items and we have 16 items to show. I don't really want a layout with 5+5+5+1 items; using 4+4+4+4 would look much neater, without needing any more space. Unfortunately, while typographers have been wrangling with this sort of problem for a long time, flexbox doesn't have any awareness of it at all.

OK, so I have to live with 5+5+5+1 for now if I want to use flexbox. In that case, it would be nice to control the justification of the final line, for example having additional items lining up under the left-most columns above them. Unfortunately, this also isn't something that flexbox supports. With most settings for justify-content, my lonely last item is going in the centre of its row, whether I want it to or not. Even worse, if I add another item, the two on that final row will be correctly spaced according justify-content within their own row in isolation, but that isn't necessarily going to align at all with the columns of items on the rows above.

These kinds of limitations do significantly reduce the usefulness of flexbox, IMHO. With CSS grids also now widely supported, I find there aren't actually that many situations where flexbox is the best tool for the job.

<comment><USER10> For the 5+5+5+1 example, there is a fairly easy way to accomplish that:

Append n dummy items to your list, where n is the maximum number of items you expect on a single line. They should have a height of 0, and the same width / margin as your regular items.

The "2D justification" where items occupy space intelligently would be awesome, but I doubt CSS will ever allow that.

<comment><USER9> Sure, there are various workarounds for the left justification problem, but none of the ones I know is attractive. Anything based on adding extra items defeats one of the main advantages of flexbox, which is that you don't need to know in advance how many items per line will fit and if the user resizes their browser then the layout will automatically adapt. Anything based on using :after to fill the space on the final line only works if you're left-aligning everything with no space outside.

I think what is really needed here is an extra property specifying how to handle the last row (or column for vertical flex) of the layout that is separate to the normal justify-content property but takes the positions of items in the preceding rows (columns) into account, roughly analogous to the subgrid concept for CSS grids.

I don't think the "2D justification" problem would be that difficult to solve either. Again, it just needs a single extra property, in this case to specify whether and how to balance item counts across all rows (or columns, depending on flex direction). A simple approach would just repeatedly shorten all of the preceding rows by one item and add the same total number of items to the final row until doing so again would make the last row longer than the rest. Then redistribute the horizontal space throughout according to the normal justification, which at least minimises the difference between the number of items in the final row and the rest without needing any extra space for the overall layout.

A slightly more sophisticated treatment might offer a third option that can shorten more than just the final row, distributing any difference in item counts over multiple rows instead. For example, 5+5+5+2 would become 5+4+4+4. In this way, you would at worst have a set of earlier rows and a set of later rows where the item counts differed by no more than 1. Presumably you would also then apply the final row justification property imagined above to all rows in the later set, if you don't have the same number of items in all rows.

Maybe in the future we'll see a Flexbox Level 2 spec that addresses issues like these, just as subgrid is coming with level 2 of the grid layout spec.

<comment><USER9> I lost a paragraph above. There was supposed to be a final version of the balancing behaviour that considered not just item counts but space used and flex behaviour for each item, adjusting breaks over the whole flex container in a similar way to Knuth-Plass justification of a text paragraph. There was also an observation that this made the layout algorithm much more complicated and might be going too far down the rabbit hole. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> CSS-Tricks also has a more practical guide which has been essential for me: [https://css-tricks.com/flex-grow-is-weird/](https://css-tricks.com/flex-grow- is-weird/)

<comment><USER12> Once I started thinking about flexbox the way I thought about QT GUI's it all started to click for me. Especially flex-grow being basically equivalent to BoxLayout's "stretch" I was able to easily make responsive "GUI-like" programs very quickly.

I don't even bother with justify-content anymore, elements with flex-grow combined with min-width and max-width pretty much cover all my required "layout" use cases.

<comment><USER11> Yep. Nearly every flex child for me is either

      flex-grow:0;
      flex-shrink:0;

or

      flex-grow:1;
      flex-shrink:1;

And the latter on an empty div makes a really nice "spacer"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Getting CSS layout right can be extraordinarily difficult, borderline impossible, absent the right understanding and set of composable primitives.

As someone who's done web development since the late 1990's, I offer my very highest praise and unreserved recommendation for an extraordinarily thorough, coherent and practical resource I only recently discovered: [https://every- layout.dev](https://every-layout.dev)

Its "Axiomatic CSS" is, finally, a standards-based solution that provides a solid foundation for truly responsive layout and design.

</comment><comment><USER14> Nice guide, thanks for writing it. I can never remember which directions align/justify impact. The best mnemonic I could think of was justified text. When you click the justify button on a text paragraph in a typical word processor, it impacts the text in the same direction as justify-content in flexbox does.

<comment> frosted-flakes You just have to remember that if the flex-direction is column, align/justify also flip. Which is partly why it's so confusing.

<comment><USER14> They are the same in relation to the flex-direction. Justify goes with the direction, align goes perpendicular to it. But still I agree, I've now been using flexbox for a long time and I still find myself second guessing a lot.

<comment><USER15> Reading your comment gave me the mnemonic "a line goes perpendicular to it" which I think will come in handy (for me at least).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Another guide that I found added clarity around flexbox:

[https://internetingishard.com/html-and- css/flexbox/](https://internetingishard.com/html-and-css/flexbox/)

I think often it is about finding a guide by an author who happens to explain things in the way that clicks with you. For me, this one really helped.

</comment><comment><USER17> For figuring which flexbox options I want, I always use this: [https://cvan.io/flexboxin5/](https://cvan.io/flexboxin5/) bit of a flexbox editor/explorer

</comment><comment><USER18> Can't wait for you to try CSS Grids

</comment><comment><USER19> I sympathize with this. Everytime I want to use flexbox, I end up searching and reading and rereading CSStricks' guide. And then experimenting until I get what I am after. One of these days I'll stick...

</comment><comment><USER20> The explanations are good, but there's quite a gaping hole when you don't include any "flex-*" properties.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks! I intentionally left out all the other ones. This was a deliberate reductionist view of the feature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I have been messing around with Flexbox quite a bit at work and this will be a super useful reference, thanks!

</comment><comment><USER22> Good concise article. Is there a tool to create such figures. They look really neat.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! As for the images, I drew them in Sketch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Super useful! Thank you so much for this.

</comment><comment><USER24> This is a super helpful guide! Thanks!</comment>


Sometimes, Iowa Democrats award caucus delegates with a coin flip - <AUTHOR> http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/elections/presidential/caucus/2016/02/02/sometimes-iowa-democrats-award-caucus-delegates-coin-flip/79680342/ <comment><USER2> Ugh. That's all I have to say.</comment>


Depression-Fighting SAD Lamps Aren't Just for Your Winter Blues - <AUTHOR> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/depression-fighting-sad-lamps-arent-just-for-your-winter-blues <comment><USER2> In case anyone is curious — here is the lamp used in the study: [http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00PCN4UVU/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/184-...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00PCN4UVU/ref=mp_s_a_1_1/184-2212292-9332300?qid=1447969060&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=carex+light&dpPl=1&dpID=31WFLHEU3RL&ref=plSrch)

</comment><comment><USER3> My conjecture on why it works (for non-SAD cases of depression): People who are depressed are likely socially isolated (by choice, perhaps because of depression, or by circumstances, perhaps causing depression) and also physically isolated in homes or offices without good natural sunlight (again, the physical isolation may be a consequence of depression and wanting to be alone, or causal). I've spent several hours a day outdoors or in buildings (mainly a gym) with large windows providing lots of natural sunlight this year. I'm also in the best mood I've been in years. Of course, two factors have changed here for me: more light, more physical activity. Both are correlated with improving mood for people with depression, so I can't say which has had the greater effect for me.

<comment><USER4> a well balanced diet helps alleviate depression too.

too many weeks of staying cooped up in the basement eating pizza rolls will take its toll both physically and mentally

<comment><USER5> I have heard this from a couple of people but I have never seen any studies to support this folk-medicine remedy for clinical depression. Do you have any literature pointers?

<comment><USER6> Well, pizza rolls in the basement have a terrible ratio of omega-3/omega-6 and no vitamin D, and omega-3 supplementation is quite effective against depression.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21939614](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21939614)

So there ya go.

<comment><USER5> That is for one supplement or for "a balanced diet"? Because the way I read that it seems I could eat whatever and take the fish oil supplement.

<comment><USER6> Sure, why not? You could always eat your ingredients instead of cooking too.

<comment><USER5> I am not trying to be rude but I really don't know what you are trying to say. Yes, if I understand the study you linked to, as long as i take the supplement or drizzle fish oil on my pizza I could eat a totally unbalanced diet of raw or cooked ingredients. But your original comment was about "a balanced diet" not the benefits of one very specific supplement?

<comment><USER6> I didn't make that comment, and I can't immediately provide proof of the health of a regular diet vs a bunch of supplements.

But they have a ton of sodium and not much fiber, so if anything you'd get pretty constipated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Are there concrete characteristics to a SAD lamp? Could I achieve similar results if I fill a room with led bulbs?

<comment><USER8> Seems pretty easy to duplicate with LED bulbs with these characteristics: CRI: 85 or above Color Temp: 4000K About 70-80W of CFL, so that might be around 60W of LED. Using omnidirectional bulbs, perhaps 7-8 mounted near each other all shining to get the same 10,000LUX intensity at your face.

<comment><USER9> You should look at the spectral power distribution. CRI (color rendering index) score and CCT (correlated color temperature) are pretty uninformative metrics.

The CCT just tells you (approximately) how the relative excitation of short vs. medium/long cones in the eye from a particular lamp compares to that of a black body radiator, and the color rendering index tells you how whether a particular set of paint chips looks roughly the same under your lamp as it would look under either daylight or an incandescent bulb (or some value based on linearly interpolating between the two, depending on color temperature). To judge color differences, the CRI takes cone responses and multiplies by a matrix (chromatic adaptation transform), and then uses a standard color difference formula.

Most of the so-called "full spectrum lamps" have a spectrum nothing at all like sunlight. It's not at all clear what kind of spectrum would help fight seasonal depression, but I suspect you want a bit of near ultraviolet radiation, which wouldn't be measured by either CCT or CRI.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Question: can you make your own lamp with a, say, 100W LED array? I'm just thinking of a DIY option...

<comment><USER11> If your concern is about the prices, you can find very reasonably priced lamps by Verilux on Amazon. Got mine for under $150, but there are ones even cheaper.

If you're simply trying to get an Open Source/DIY project together, power to you!

An aside: I'm very grateful for my light box. I have S.A.D. as well as 2 anxiety disorders. Really helps me out and would recommend a box to anyone that is on the fence or unaware of their existence!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I have one on my desk. I turn it on when I sit down for work in the morning, hitting the timer to run for 45 minutes. There is a marked improvement in my wakefulness, mood, and productivity. I don't care if it's a placebo or not, Dumbo's Magic Feather is good enough for me.

</comment><comment><USER13> I've always spent a lot of money, floor space, and electricity for high- wattage lamps and never regretted it. My living room has 4 IKEA lamps and a halogen torchiere.

</comment><comment><USER14> Do any HN'ers have experience with the SAD lamp available from Costco?

<comment><USER15> I have the rechargeable variant of the Philips Golite, which looks like the same model that Costco sells. I like it overall, but the big problem I have with it is that the battery doesn't hold a charge if you keep it in its case for any longer than about a week.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence on the effect of dark and light editor themes on mood?

<comment><USER17> I mainly use X-on-black themes because they give me a wider gamut of useful colors for syntax-highlighting.

<comment><USER18> Hard to say from your comment what you are doing, but I've struggled quite a bit with getting good colours for both dark and light themes while working on agnostic [1]. Obviously, if you are using 256 colour scheme, then you can choose whatever colours you like. But if you are using a 16 colour scheme there are some significant issues you have to keep in mind.

Colours 0-7 are "normal" colours. Colours 8-15 are "bright" colours. Unfortunately, back in the old days when bold wasn't supported on terminals, they decided that bold should be implemented with "bright" colours. So now, any time you use bold, there are applications that force the colour to be the bright version (i.e., even if you tell it to use colour 6, it will actually use colour 14 if you specify bold as well).

For light themes, this is a significant problem because most colour palattes _actually_ put the bright (i.e. lighter) colours in the "bright" colour section. This means that basically every time you use bold, there will be very little contrast -- making light themes practically useless. You can't just change the palette either, because then your non-bold characters will have poor contrast.

What agnostic does is to use colours 8-15 as "normal" colours and 0-7 as "bright" colours. This way, when you use bold it actually uses the colour you intended. Then you can adjust the palatte in your terminal app to use whatever colours you want. Agnostic is also designed so that it doesn't completely suck with standard palattes (like the Xwindows/iTerm default, Tango, Solarized Dark) because it is designed to be a pair programming theme. It works best if you make your own palette, though.

Saying all that, there should be no reason you can't set up a good light theme with whatever colours you like, but you will probably have to do the same kind of thing as agnostic if you want to support bold well.

[1] - [https://github.com/ygt-mikekchar/agnostic](https://github.com/ygt- mikekchar/agnostic)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Would like to try.. any damage possible to eyes or skin?

</comment><comment><USER20> If this works, then you need to elevate your vitamin D (should ideally be between 40 and 60 ng/ml) and serotonin levels.

Vitamin D:

\- 3000-5000 IU vitamin D3

\- 1000mcg vitamin K2 MK-4

\- 100mcg vitamin K2 MK-7 (to direct calcium away from soft tissue)

\- 200-400mg Magnesium Glycinate.

.

Serotonin:

\- 500-1500mg L-Tryptophan

(or if that doesn't work...)

\- 300mg 5-HTP

\- 3000mg L-Tyrosine (to counter lowered absorption caused by 5-HTP)

\- 400mg EGCG (helps prevent 5-HTP from becoming serotonin in the intestines).

.

If depression isn't seasonal, then there are other supplements that may work (any of the following):

\- Tianeptine Sulfate

\- Memantine

\- N-Acetyl Semax

\- Fasoracetam

<comment><USER21> Please don't do this!

EGCG can cause hepatatoxicity and liver failure:

[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/lt.21021/asset/...](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/lt.21021/asset/21021_ftp.pdf;jsessionid=5DBC65753D5AD8EC9BCA400197D6F0A1.f04t02?v=1&t=ih6ykgqn&s=20e5b389209b8645fdb741067bd969aefff9cecf)

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905152/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2905152/)

<comment><USER22> Are there studies that there is a realistically reachable level of toxicity just by drinking tea, green _or_ fermented? The latter study doesn't seem to say, and the former link just gives me "Forbidden".</comment></comment></comment>


Seeking advice about relocating - <AUTHOR>

I could use some advice about relocating.
For background, I live in a medium large, very nice midwestern city that's highly rated for being a great place to live. I have a nice house, a spouse and young children (infant and  4 yr old). I make a good living here as a senior engineer (web ~90k). For the last 2 years I've turned down invitations to interview with several highly regarded, established names in the Valley. I'm 40 years old (but appear 5-10 yrs younger). The job options where I am now are limited to a handful of small start-ups and very large financial/insurance (where I'd stagnate). I've worked hard and had great luck. I really like where I am now (medium sized, well-known company) doing app development in a rich problem domain, under a great manager, team, stack - you name it. Our Business is finding it's way through some rapid change though (layoffs, etc), and I'm not sure how much longer the current environment will last. I feel like in 3-5 years I will regret having passed these invitations up.
Reasons I haven't made the move:
1. My son has a serious health condition. It will likely require a major surgery in the near future (3-6 months). We have great insurance and get great care from a well-respected hospital 20 minutes from our home.
2. My wife's job is great, but it's tied to the area. Financially, any increase in salary I might make out there, wouldn't make up for the loss of my wife's income and the increased cost of living. Longer term, her earning potential much greater than mine. 3. I love where I live. I grew up near NYC. I'm doubtful I would enjoy the same standard of living & quality of life I enjoy here, there.
I feel like I have some options here for the next few years, but I'm losing sleep over it now. What would you do in my situation? <comment><USER2> You haven't presented even the tiniest reason to move. Why are you even considering it?

You like your city, job, AND company. Yes, your company might change in a few years, but you'll still have options then. You'll be able to freelance at the very least. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

You've said that your combined income would likely decrease if you left. That's a big deal, especially considering cost-of-living in NYC or SF is likely double what you pay now.

The startup world isn't a good fit for someone who needs to be as risk-averse as you, especially in SF. You need to have a plan for retirement and your children's colleges. You can't go bankrupt. In SF or NYC, you'd either have to rent (and burn a bunch of money) or buy a place that would also add a huge mortgage on top of your other expenses.

There are many small-to-medium software companies in other, cheaper cities. If you really want to jump ship, check out Houston, Nashville, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, and Charlotte. There are probably more that I'm missing. Obviously you need to filter for the kind of lifestyle/culture that you want.

Get your resume in the hands of some recruiters and see what turns up.

<comment><AUTHOR> Single reason - that it would be a great growth experience and maybe give me career options down the road. Thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Sounds like you've got a "grass-is-greener" thing going on. Everything is good where you're at, but you feel you're missing something. I've felt that way.

Go take a few interviews, and spend a few days in the Valley. Be sure to drive...at rush hour... price a few houses/apartments...

If you're anything like me - who is also in a medium-large (well, a college town just outside of) midwestern city that's highly rated for being a great place to live, with kids, wife with amazing job, etc. - interviewing and spending a little time there quickly clears up the grass-is-greener syndrome.

<comment><AUTHOR> Definitely - great advice. I've been out, had a good experience interviewing, but declined offers for those reasons. But still, I'm feeling like doing a few years for some big names might give me more options and flexibility in the long run.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been considering a Bay Area relocation for many of the same reasons as you. I've been working remotely with great success but the pull of swinging for the fences in the Bay Area continues to tempt me.

However I'm still going back and forth (and like you losing some sleep over it). The cost of living is really astronomical in every respect, and I'm not entirely convinced that trading all my financial security is going to work out well for the family.

That being said, I've enjoyed a lot of success working remotely for the past 3 years, so if I decide not to move, I will just continue to do that.

Feel free to email me if you have any specific questions/concerns and want to discuss further. My email is in my profile.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> just make sure you have some money set aside for sudden loss of job, and use your time for finding a new job in your area. After all, you're in a big city so the jobs are there for sure.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes. This. We have a cushion (although a larger one would be better). There aren't a lot of comparable options here. Most of the jobs here are limited, being a step back in pay and either experience or benefits. I'm half-heartedly looking for remote work.</comment></comment>


Hacking Facebook to remove the social value facade - <AUTHOR> http://hackaday.com/2012/10/23/hacking-facebook-to-remove-the-social-value-facade/ <comment><USER2> The same principle is applied here on HN too. You no longer see scores on comments and it seems to be working out quite nicely. I wonder if PG would ever go a step further and take them off submissions too.

</comment><comment><USER3> Liking a post is a signal, especially when you're the first 'liker'. If it was posted by someone you don't see every day it's unlikely you'd immediately like something.

People are like a heard of sheep, when others that starting something it makes them feel like they can too. These people that don't speak to you every day now feel like they can like it too and it's no longer a direct signal to you.

Getting rid of the number of likes would change this dynamic (getting people to break down social barriers) but Facebook's answer is the 'Promote' button which really just changes the context of the post as it becomes an ad.</comment>


"Adobe Flash Player is required for interactive charts" - <AUTHOR> https://finance.google.com/finance?q=EURUSD <comment><USER2> I built those charts on Google Finance. At the time (10 years ago) there was no better alternative for building interactive charting in browsers.

After I left Google Finance I feel that the team has attempted a few times to remove Flash, but I don't know why they didn't succeed.

Others on this thread are probably right - finance is not enough of a focus for Google, only so many engineering hours, better spent on other parts of Google Finance (more, better and cleaner data) than on replacing something that works well enough.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for building this 10 years ago. This was my first repo I looked at as a noogler earlier this year because I wanted to understand the effort req'd to replace flash charts. It looked a bit more complex than I was expecting but I still have it as #1 on my backlog for a multi-weekend project.

<comment><USER4> Are Google employees expected to work on Google services over multi-weekends? Are you compensated or is this for fun? If you're working for free and your work is not open source it seems like you are being taken advantage of by your employer.

<comment><USER3> I think about it a little differently: I don't work on that product team, but I've benefited from using google finance for almost a decade and have the skillset + interest to help contribute back to that product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> People are complaining about Flash? I've got quite a few stories from doing integration work with refrigeration systems. Mind you, most of these systems are meant to be used daily by the staff at ordinary grocery stores.

\- One vendor requires a leaky JRE 1.5 to run their configuration tool, originally written for Windows CE around 2007. You need to keep it inside a VM and disable automatic Java updates.

\- A newer system from the same company requires Flash. Most customers opt for the Java based one, because the newer system is unsuitable for anything but the smallest sites (frozen foods melting at high bus and CPU loads).

\- The web GUI on another company's product wants a browser Java plugin that accepts unsigned certs.

\- The web GUI on a third company's product requires the user to accept unsigned certs, even though these systems are never exposed to the internet (RFC 1918 and certificates are inherently incompatible). The GUI is a stateful JSP frameset hell.

\- Yet another company that no longer makes refrigeration systems requires DOS-based software. Luckily its volume ID based copy protection does not work under Windows XP.

EDIT: Fixed line breaks for readability

<comment><USER6> Why the hell do grocery store refrigerators require a web GUI? The most complicated computer in the whole system should maybe be an 8-bit microcontroller.

For _massive_ industrial-scale refrigeration and storage, it might also make sense to add, say, a serial port.

<comment><USER7> Well, for a fleet of refrigerators, it might be nice to have a place to see data from the entire fleet. Power requirements, temperature, failures or failure indicators, etc.

A large supermarket would most likely want something like that. With serial ports, they'd have to design a system themselves, including the boxes to attach to the individual serial ports.

Of course, for a technically skilled individual, a serial port is much preferable.

<comment><USER5> Temperature logging is mandated by HACCP-related regulations. Without a centralized system one would have store clerks running around with thermometers and a clipboard. The maintenance company can do remote supervision, troubleshooting and optimization. Also, having an overview of all stores helps one pick out the ones that are wasting electricity.

Disclaimer: Our company's main product is used to collect data from refrigeration systems into one vendor-independent, Flash-free web UI. We do pretty much everything ranging from web development to reverse engineering and hardware design.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's the typical Google development cycle. Build a great product, don't get enough users, engineers lose interest and boom the product is basically sunset. Years later it is either revived or cancelled outright.

<comment><USER9> Yup, I'm seeing this with Google sites (sort of) right now. Even though they're rolling out a new version, it's pretty much impossible to get a digest of all pages on the old sites with revisions. There _is_ an API to access this data, but it's behind an amalgam of out-of-date documentation and forgotten APIs.

edit: clarification

<comment><USER10> Google reader highlighted this issue. I wonder how many finance apps there could have been if Google had never developed Google Finance.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Funny thing is they used to have interactive charts without Flash. But then I've always felt the janitorial staff worked on google.finance. When companies go out of business or merge they stick around in the site for months sometimes. Or ever try the stock screener? What an unsmiling pile of poor. Yet they have the data and the horsepower to do amazing things with it, but since it apparently makes no revenue, its not worth the effort unless the night cleaning folks feel like writing a little code.

<comment><USER12> Google doesn't have an public finance API to use for creating a better product, do they?

<comment><USER13> They used to, shut down in 2012.

[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/google-finance- apis](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/google-finance-apis)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> A week or so ago this message appeared on the Portfolio page, I assume the Flash Player requirement will be gone soon:

> Google Finance is under renovation. As a part of this process, the > Portfolios feature won't be available after mid-November 2017. To keep a > copy, download your portfolio.

<comment><USER15> If the trends of "renovation" I've seen on other sites are any indication, the Flash requirement will disappear but so will a bunch of other useful features. :-(

IMHO if they can't change things without removing functionality, they should just leave well enough alone. They don't have to "support" the old version or do anything special with it; just leave it alone in its current, working, state.

<comment> angus-prune But with flash being deprecated across pretty much every browser and EoL by Adobe, they can't really leave it alone.

<comment><USER15> Of course they can. Flash isn't a cloud service. All "deprecated" and "EoL" means is that Adobe isn't going to change the product or provide support. Google could do the same. It will keep working the way it has always worked. There's millions if not more sites out there still with Flash content. I have a collection of SWFs (mostly games) and they still work too.

The "this technology is old/deprecated/EoL/unfashionable/etc., let's just delete it all and provide no equivalent replacement, nevermind the fact that it's been working well" attitude is what really pisses off users, including me. Also somewhat like me, they don't really care what technology is as long as it works --- all they see is something which used to work is now broken and they can't do anything about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Google Finance is a dead product walking: Are there any developers actually working on it at all?

<comment><USER17> Any recommendations for a better alternative?

<comment><USER18> Teletrader Public Webstation [http://www.teletrader.com](http://www.teletrader.com)

(full disclosure, that's the company I work for)

<comment><USER19> Selecting a nation will change automatically language. That's bad. Especially for Switzerland.

<comment><USER20> Yep. Same problem here.

Also can't search by company's name if it has an apostrophe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The article title is wrong. The real message is: "Adobe Flash Player is required for interactive charts." The title is: "Adobe Flash Player is required for charts"

I see a chart without flash, it's just not interactive (but a static rendered image)

<comment><USER22> It should be "Adobe Flash Player is required for charts on finance.google.com on Firefox otherwise static rendered chart image is not renderable either".

I tried Firefox on Windows and Chrome on Windows, only FF can't show the static rendered image without first activate Flash.

<comment><USER23> I'm using Firefox and had no trouble viewing the static chart.

<comment><USER22> What's your setup?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> VMware's private cloud control panel software requires flash (or at least the version I was subjected to did)

No charts. No fancy graphics. It's all basic crud stuff. And it's all in flash.

<comment><USER25> That's why I quit VMware. That was the only project to work on, and there was no way I was going to spend my career in a dead-end technology like that.

It was kind of obvious that HTML was going to take over... Like really obvious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> They forgot to turn off this service.

<comment><USER27> Perhaps they will gradually lower its contrast like a bad hn post, until nobody notices it fade away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I saw the flash player alert yesterday and thought my computer was infected by some malware! I can't believe Google doesn't have a chart control to put there.

</comment><comment><USER29> it has a very iGoogle feel to it, i expect it will be killed off or refreshed soon.

</comment><comment><USER30> My place of work used a Java applet for time-card management and just upgraded us to... a flash application. I had to set-up a VM just to manage my timecard because I refuse to install Flash. And this is a major payroll service.

</comment><comment><USER31> Chrome on a Mac here. Did anyone else's ENTIRE SCREEN fade to black for a second upon loading this page? How is that possible?

<comment><USER32> Nope.

OS X 10.12.6 Beta (16G8c)

Chrome Version 61.0.3163.100 (Official Build) (64-bit)

<comment><USER33> Off topic: That beta is very buggy and you should consider updating to a more recent one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Checkout tradingview.com over google finance</comment>


Should Microsoft give up? - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/windows-phones-many-problems-should-microsoft-give-up/73126

<comment><USER3> I hope they don't. I have been critical of Microsoft in the past but Windows Phone is a credible phone OS.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree -- credible competition is vital to push industry forward.

<comment><USER4> There's already credible competition with Android. They have more market share than Apple. You aren't worried about Microsoft having credible competition on the desktop? They have 90% market share, which is still pretty much a monopoly.

<comment><USER5> Two goliaths splitting the market is not credible competition; it's a duopoly.

A third serious contender would increase the level of competition considerably.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Microsoft should give up smartphone battles so we app developers can develop for just 2 platforms.

Microsoft should give up the browser wars so we web developers can develop for 1-2 browsers.

Microsoft should NOT give up the search engine wars because I am so screwed if Google bans my Adwords account or penalizes me =(

<comment><USER7> Microsoft should give up so consumers have fewer choices and software developers have less work?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I hope not, if nothing else because I really, really enjoy my WP7.

</comment><comment><USER9> I could go point by point countering every false notion and innuendo in that article, by why waste time and effort arguing with bait?

</comment><comment><USER10> They'd never do it but I wonder what would happen if they forked Android and put the Metro skin on it.

<comment><USER11> That's more or less what Nokia was doing. MeeGo was a Linux kernel with a mostly Nokia userland on top (albeit more desktop Linux-like than Android.

I doubt they would succeed. I'm not sure whether the carefully cultivated to be anti-Unix Microsoft development mindset would survive the allergic reaction this would cause.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> If you judge your success by fidelity with your competitor's product you will NEVER win. The only way they can possibly gain double-digit market share is if they actually do something different/disruptive.

IMHO "metro style" isn't a differentiator.

</comment><comment><USER13> What's the point? Microsoft makes money off of Android phones anyway - <USER2> just that, but I believe they make _more_ off of Android phones than off of Windows phones?

Even if that >50% isn't true (though I believe it is), it helps to put things in perspective - what's Microsoft's larger goal, other than just get a bit of market share in another corner of the larger tech market?

Google and Apple both have visions behind Android and iOS, respectively, even if they're _very_ different visions/goals. I still don't know what Microsoft's driving vision behind WP7 is - that is, if they have one.

<comment><USER11> > what's Microsoft's larger goal, other than just get a bit of market share in > another corner of the larger tech market?

Survive. Microsoft (at least parts of it) realize the PC desktop is not going to last forever and that's the _only_ market they really dominate. Everything else depends on this domination and the moment it ceases to exist, all the other BUs will fail. Except, maybe, Xbox and miscellaneous hardware.

<comment><USER14> > that's the only market they really dominate

Office

<comment><USER11> What is Office without Windows?</comment></comment></comment></comment>