Will the U.S. Ever Build Another Big Coal Plant? - <AUTHOR> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/will-the-u-s-ever-build-another-big-coal-plant/ <comment><USER2> What really struck me from the article:

>"To me, the biggest impediment for a company going out today and building a coal-fired power plant is regulatory uncertainty," Begger said. "Until you can find some sort of carbon agreement, if that's legislation or regulatory, technology, whatever, until there is some way to take that off the table, you're not going to have a lot of interest from utilities."

The US government's plan of inaction on carbon regulation is clearly hurting industry here.

Many (most?) energy companies are including the cost of a carbon tax in their future projections and planning, and in their investor communications.

The energy industry is willing to impose a carbon tax in the US in exchange for immunity from lawsuits from emissions up until now:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/science/exxon-carbon- tax....](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/20/science/exxon-carbon-tax.html)

That's how certain everybody is about the need for legislation, that an industry would invite a tax that amounts to $0.36/gallon of gas.

The lack of political leadership, led by the desire to deny widely accepted science, is hurting business and planning.

This uncertainty probably helps in the deployment of less-risky resources like wind, solar, and storage. But I think that clear carbon taxes, at $40-$120/ton, would help _both_ the environment and the proper structuring of our economy.

Uncertainty about regulation can be worse than the regulation itself.

<comment><USER3> Reducing coal usage is a goal of environmentalists. Government inaction, creating uncertainty, is achieving that goal. Why do we need to tax the industry and raise rates on consumers when coal usage is falling and renewables are on the rise without it?

<comment><USER2> Because coal isn't the only problem, carbon in general is one of coal's problems. Coal also causes tons of premature deaths from other non-CO2 emissions as well, but the long term problem is the CO2.

An economic system is more efficient and overall wealth increases if externalities are priced closer to their costs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> TL;DR version: no.

The only coal plant being built is a tiny one for a university in Alaska. Three more have been in regulatory hell for so long that they're no longer profitable compared to every other energy source, especially natural gas. Coal is dying but no one told Trump.

<comment><USER5> One of the mentioned cancelled projects was a coke plant with a small electricity co-generation component. Do steel mills still need coke? If so, the decline of coal in America could be due as much to the decline of American steel processing as to emission regulations on power plants.

<comment><USER6> A better question might be whether US steel plants have an increasing need for coke beyond current production levels. Also, do current coal-fired power plants also produce adequate coke for future increases in demand?

<comment><USER7> If coke became particularly more expensive (unlikely despite falling demand for electricity) then US steel (such as it is) would move to direct-reduced iron[1] using natural gas. Almost all steel in India is made this way.

It's also worth mentioning that steel can theoretically be produced electrolytically[2] (like aluminum). It's... essentially vaporware, but who knows. It's one of the Big Dreams: more energy efficient and pure oxygen as a byproduct.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_reduced_iron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_reduced_iron)

[2]: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner- cheaper-w...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way- to-make-steel-uses-electricity/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What else could the coal be used for?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Production_of_chemicals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Production_of_chemicals)

On a hunch from playing a bit too much Factorio, I tried to look in to coal and plastics, which seems to be a relatively recent (or at least recently commercialized) use for coal. The most reliable thing I can find is a press release.

[https://www.honeywell.com/newsroom/pressreleases/2016/05/new...](https://www.honeywell.com/newsroom/pressreleases/2016/05/new- honeywell-production-capacity-in-china-to-support-breakthrough-coal-to- plastics-technology)

<comment><USER9> Coal has plenty of uses. It can be used to make precursors for everything from plastics to carbon fiber. In fact in the 19th century it was the original source of chemicals and materials from dyes to aspirin to tarmac.

In the beginning of 20th century it started to be displaced by the cheap and abundant oil.

Coal's major role in electric power generation is relatively recent. Although coal continued to be a major source of important petrochemicals such as benzene into the 60s, the coal industry underwent a major crisis in the beginning of the 20th century and in the US in particular was saved by the country's electrification.

I expect that this pendulum will swing the other way. Coal is posed to become a major source of materials and chemicals once again.

Some helpful links:

[https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/37_...](https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/37_2_SAN%20FRANCISCO_04-92_0524.pdf)

[https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/39_...](https://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel/preprint%20archive/Files/39_1_SAN%20DIEGO_03-94_0113.pdf)

[http://www.ogc.co.jp/e/products/carbon-f/](http://www.ogc.co.jp/e/products/carbon-f/)

[https://eic.rsc.org/section/feature/feture-pain-relief- from-...](https://eic.rsc.org/section/feature/feture-pain-relief-from-coal- tar-to-paracetamol/2020140.article)

<comment><USER10> I seem to remember gas works in England would convert coal into gas too. No that this is something that would be done today given natural gas being cheaper.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There's a chance (like there is with every technology that isn't actively developed for a long time) that just when you think coal's dying someone's gonna come along and figure out how to apply an innovation from some other field that makes it so much cheaper/cleaner/whatever that it sticks around for a long time.

<comment><USER2> There's a chance of that, but up until now all such attempts have been _stupendous_ failures. The Kemper plant in the article was a $7.5B failure.

Much more likely is an innovation in the battery sector. Utilities are finally waking up to the huge value proposition of batteries on the grid. They can be used instead of upgrading transmission and distribution infrastructure. They can be somewhat easily relocated to new sites if projections of electricity demand were wrong.

There are a ton of flow technologies that are on the cusp of being really useful. Lithium ion tailored for the grid is already the cost winner for several applications.

I _do_ hope that we come up with some carbon sequestration innovations, but I doubt that they'll be tied to coal in any way. Possible, but extremely unlikely. If there was any horse to back in the race, there's more than enough money for horse to get out of the gate. There are a lot of people with assets that are close to getting stranded.

<comment><USER7> >Much more likely is an innovation in the battery sector. Utilities are finally waking up to the huge value proposition of batteries on the grid. They can be used instead of upgrading transmission and distribution infrastructure.

Back of the envelope math: the electric grid would cost ~5 trillion to replace[1]. At $200/kWh that's 25,000,000,000 kWh. The US uses 11,152,000,000 kWh per day- that's 2.24 days of storage. Doubling the effective power of the grid using a day's worth of storage is trivial AND cost effective (at $200/kWh). Add in renewables and that storage gets several times more valuable, too.

[1]: [http://www.businessinsider.com/replacing-us-electrical- grid-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/replacing-us-electrical-grid- cost-2017-3)

<comment><USER2> The flip side of storage directly connected to the grid is demand response: consuming electricity at times lower than peak. This serves nearly an identical function to storage that's permanently fixed to the grid, as long as it's truly dispatchable.

The numbers you posted there are remarkably similar in the amount of storage in passenger cars as we shift to an EV fleet. 260 million vehicles in the US with 50 kWh batteries on average is 13,150,000,000 kWh.

With smart charging at the cheap times, passenger vehicles can serve as fantastic time-shifters as demand increases on the grid. Just some of those pesky logistics and coordination tasks to solve...

<comment><USER7> The average residential consumer uses 29.6 kWh per day so 2.24 days of storage is 66.3 kWh- pretty close to 50 kWh! Also worth noting that the average daily power consumption for electric cars would only be ~8.5 kWh per person.

>With smart charging at the cheap times, passenger vehicles can serve as fantastic time-shifters as demand increases on the grid. Just some of those pesky logistics and coordination tasks to solve...

Yeah... and being actively fought against, annoyingly. Variable rates aren't even available to most people.

<comment><USER12> There's plenty of time for that to change -- there aren't that many electric cars yet.

<comment><USER7> You're talking about variable rates? Hawaii is a good example of what the future might look like, unfortunately. The power companies there are fighting very hard against variable rates because it would make solar way, way more feasible. It's kind of an extreme example because solar power could virtually eliminate Hawaiian power companies at a very substantial cost savings and a very short timescale, but the same principal elements are present everywhere in the mainland US too.

Australia has a lot of variable rates though, so that's nice for them.

<comment><USER12> Yes, I was talking about variable rates. Australia is a slam-dunk for solar because of the great weather/insolation plus the high cost of electricity.

Hawaii's economics are midway between Australia and the mainland US, they won't be able to resist for very long. At the least, the utility companies there can't resist buying solar for themselves! [http://fortune.com/tesla- solarcity-battery-solar-farm/](http://fortune.com/tesla-solarcity-battery- solar-farm/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The article talks about the gasification projects and the high costs.

So how would any new tech not end up like the coal gasification attempts?

Seems we bette off putting money into research at university levels for across the board energy projects then transfer to commercial sector after.

</comment><comment><USER14> I don't really know about our natural gas reserves - is cheap natural gas looking like a thing for the next several decades?

<comment><USER15> The world has more than enough coal and natural gas for centuries, even petroleum won't be running out any time soon. This is actually an unfortunate fact.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> No.

<comment><USER17> Could you please not post unsubstantive comments to HN?</comment></comment>


DressCode Malware Hits 400 Apps in Google Play - <AUTHOR> https://www.beencrypted.com/dresscode-potential-impact-businesses/ <comment><USER2> This is annoying as hell!!

First of all, this could also happen to Apple Store (remember the xcode backdoor that infected 500M ios downloads?) but Google is doing this just too easy for maleware creators. There are a number of issues that googles need to address to improve their store security:

1\. a developer rank system. How do I know if Joe Developer is a trusted guy? Do Google honestly wants grandpa to keep track of who has and who hasn't a good track record?

2\. make it harder to game the search system. Kinda related to #1, since this is how the bad devs make money

3\. better trademark protection. If I search for "Facebook" I want to see the Facebook app. Possibly in a section below it I should see "Apps made to work with facebook" and "Third party facebook clients" in a separate section.

4\. better use of permissions. As today, I can easily write a flash light app that requires (and uses) SMS permissions and then manipulate the system to make it the top search. And people will actually download use the damn thing.

Now a lot of this can be automated and require zero additional cost to Google. In fact, #3 can easily be enforced with minimal changes to the play console.</comment>


Turkey will stop teaching evolution in schools - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/23/turkey-will-stop-teaching-evolution-schools-education-ministry/ <comment><USER2> Meanwhile in the USA

[http://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/fighting-over-darwin- stat...](http://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/fighting-over-darwin-state-by- state/)

[https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-map-showing-which-u-s-public- schoo...](https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-map-showing-which-u-s-public-schools- teach-creationi-1515717148)

[http://www.mystatesman.com/news/state--regional-govt-- politi...](http://www.mystatesman.com/news/state--regional-govt-- politics/texas-education-board-approves-curriculum-that-challenges- evolution/TyQyZ5OxYNU3NQNDfZqECI/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_publ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_and_evolution_in_public_education_in_the_United_States)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is something of a frontier for the free software movement- to become a free science movement. One that allows for anonymized, teaching, conducting of tests and handing out of degrees, anonymized peer-reviews and publishing and anonymized granting of grants and patents. So to speak, a world, where no matter the state, no matter the society, science in secret can progress and flourish. This also means, a decentralized web is needed, one that is unlike the TOR-node system. Because TOR can still be attributed to persons running nodes, persons accessing the nodes. What is needed here, is more aching to a viral mesh network, that hijacks every device coming nearby into a node. That is a lot of work, to allow for work to continue.

Another problem: How does one execute experiments, if one can not get access to devices and materials? Physics Simulation? Experiments as a anonymized Service?

<comment><USER4> How do you prevent fake science?

This article tells us why its bad for the state to manage information flow. But Facebook and the alt reality around Trump show us that society is not smart enough to separate reality from fiction.

I suspect in a city full of developers we could make science work. In a city with half the people are below 100 IQ, I am not sure the end result will be great. So many ways it can go bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Said another way, Turkey's Minister of Educatiom claims science is too controversial to teach to children in the schools. They'll stick to fairy tales instead.

</comment><comment><USER6> Ironic that the photo depicts Erdogan with a symbol of scientific illumination sitting right over his head in the background. Kamal Ataturk must be rolling in his grave.

</comment><comment><USER7> I fail to see this as a problem. I would be completely fine if I hadn't learnt about theory of evolution in school. Why does anyone who does not work in a field that requires the knowledge of evolution need to know about it? It's nothing more than useless trivia for the most part. However, Nazis and now globalists have tried to use it for political purposes. It's better left to higher education where it is taught with proper context where it is actually useful.

<comment><USER8> Because religious extremists use it instead to indoctrinate kids. It is used to argue that you "owe" "religious faith" "to god/allah".

This always translates in practice to that you owe obedience, money, time and work to them, of course. They couldn't care less about faith, they simply care about the power it gives them.

<comment><USER9> > Because religious extremists use it instead to indoctrinate kids. It is used > to argue that you "owe" "religious faith" "to god/allah".

The same way "science" extremists indoctrinate children to believe the answer is in the books. But they own the books. How is this different from religion? There is more fake science than real science out there but people few like "theory of X" is always right. This is fate manipulation, not science.

<comment><USER8> There are many science books, quite a few are not "owned" by anyone and freely accessible.

[https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/SearchResults.aspx?subjec...](https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/SearchResults.aspx?subjectAreaId=8) (just an example)

What is "fate manipulation" ?

<comment><USER9> I meant faith.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Sad. But honestly, what better way to get students excited about evolution/science than to try to hide it from them?</comment>


Not on your life: six means of sf transportation I would not use - <AUTHOR> https://www.tor.com/2018/08/15/not-on-your-life-six-means-of-sf-transportation-i-would-not-use/ <comment><USER2> Oh.

I thought it was going to be things like scooters, motorcycles, and motorized skateboards.</comment>


Show HN: Android Bootstrap - A bootstrapping template/generator for Android Apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.androidbootstrap.com

<comment><USER2> I'm definitely going to check this out... It's such a pain to start developing an Android app from scratch, especially if you aren't familiar with mobile development.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup, this is exactly why I released it. I feel the same way about starting a new project: A way of "Ahhh crap, I have to set this thing up for the next few days" before I can even become productive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is awesome. Kicks the butt of the ios boilerplate project.

How does he do the project generation?

<comment><AUTHOR> The project generation is quite naive actually. Its just a brute force search and replace with regex. Then the folder creation is done by using the package name as the folder structure, creating the folders, then copying the updated files to the new directory and wiping the old one. Its all in node. Find the source here: github.com/donnfelker/android-bootstrap-site</comment></comment>


There is no simple solution for local storage - <AUTHOR> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2012/03/there-is-no-simple-solution-for-local-storage/ <comment><USER2> > _In order to appear snappy, web browsers load the data into memory on the > first request – which could mean a lot of memory use if lots of tabs do it_

> _localStorage is persistent. If you don't use a service or never visit a web > site again, the data is still loaded when you start the browser_

That can't be right can it? I can see the data always being on disk until explicitly cleared, but if a browser is loading it _all_ for all sites from disk on launch I'd call that a significant memory and I/O management bug in the browser.

<comment><USER3> Even stranger is their conclusion that key/value is certainly slower than the full-fledged SQL database. I just can't be. Somebody doesn't understand something basic, and if it's I, please make me see.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I also do with people stopped saying localStorage is 'too slow', its certainly not a fully fledged database, but its almost perfect as a cookie replacement, where you werent storing 5MB of data in cookies anyway.

I spent some of this weekend playing with IndexedDB, its very hard to get into at the moment, mostly due to the different implementations across mozilla / chrome, but there is some complexity that doesnt look easily solved by a wrapper, just understanding what is meant by onupgradeneeded / setversion seems needlessly complex.

Other problems include "Indexed DB is not available in private browsing mode", how are people supposed to build offline webapps when the applications can easily be prevented from accessing their own data?

IndexedDB is nice, but its quite opinionated and complex, I think browser vendors needs to think about what lower level constructs can be given to developers in order to create their own databases, and as much as I dislike the thought of SQL client side, I think it was probably a mistake to shoot websql so early on, sqlite is the standard of embedded databases.

<comment><USER5> > Other problems include "Indexed DB is not available in private browsing > mode", how are people supposed to build offline webapps when the > applications can easily be prevented from accessing their own data?

I think you are confusing private browsing with offline mode. Private browser is when the user specifically _doesn't_ want the application to have any access to previously stored data, and doesn't want the application to store anything either.

<comment><USER4> I wasnt confusing private browsing / offline mode, and I do understand that private mode ensures that data is temporal, but disabling the feature, instead of just cleaning it up when the use leaves private mode, just means another edge case for developers to have to handle, or for them to just ignore private mode, which doesnt make sense for a lot of 'desktop' like apps in the browser

<comment><USER5> Are you saying that in private mode you can't use index db at all? If so, then yes I agree with you.

<comment><USER4> That is what the mozilla documentation suggests @ <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/IndexedDB/Using_IndexedDB>

"Obviously, browsers do not want to allow some advertising network or malicious website to pollute your computer, so browsers prompt the user the first time any given web app attempts to open an IndexedDB storage. The user can choose to allow or deny access. Also, IndexedDB is completely disabled in the privacy modes of browsers (Private Browsing mode for Firefox and Incognito mode for Chrome). The whole point of private browsing is to leave no footprints, so attempting to open a database fails while in this mode."

Testing it in chrome it looks like it is working fine, I should know better than to trust the docs :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This article is only about localStorage as a _cache_ for _performance optimization_ , and fails to signal this clearly enough. If, instead, you want to use it to store things locally (for example, persist a blob of data across page reloads), I assume it could be a fine solution.

There also seems to be something not quite pinned down about the argument that localStorage hits the disk on every access, and is therefore slow, especially since another argument is that if you "never visit a web site again, the data is still loaded when you start the browser." I'm a performance-conscious web developer, but is it really on me to carefully keep the browser from hitting disk? It's possible but it sounds suspect.

<comment><USER7> I was skeptical about the same argument. Both indexing and virus scanning are non-blocking processes that shouldn't impact page load time. And I'm not sure what he means when he says "for an end user on the web they could mean a few seconds of waiting during which the web site stalls"? Filesystem caching isn't something specific to developers' boxes...

<comment><USER8> On Windows, lots of virus scanners hook into the vfs and (at least a few years ago) sometimes do terrifying things like check every access. This can really, really slow down i/o.

<comment><USER9> That doesn't sounds like a good enough reason to redesign a web API, especially if it means making it several orders of magnitude more complex. Stuff like that is clearly a problem, but it's not a browser problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> By the articles own admission, the problem of the storage being persistent can just be solved by doing sessionStorage instead of localStorage.

I was just analyzing websites recently to figure out how they were not sending any data back to their servers while still having AJAX-like responses. We are doing AJAX and the amount of data we are sending back causes 2-3 second delays. Similar sites have accomplished it almost instantaneously.

What I found was that the sites I checked used localStorage, or at least from what I could tell from the minimized javascript. It seems like most of the established players have concluded that there is no better alternative and that they will just need to hack together something with localStorage: which brings me to my request:

Perhaps someone can elaborate not only on the pitfalls of localStorage/sessionStorage, but the best ways of working around them?

</comment><comment><USER11> Yes there is!

Http://github.com/alexmng/sticky

Sticky is a key/value store abstraction for localstorage and indexedDB.

</comment><comment><USER12> Yeah, that's too bad. It probably makes sense to change the spec to async; it's (kind of) easier to have the browsers change than the many web apps. You could have the document onready wait for load to finish, I imagine.

That said, if we are going to shift to another API, we should do it now and loudly. I'd prefer a database solution; people who are troubled by the complexity will use a good wrapper.

</comment><comment><USER13> localStorage may be slow for read/write, but it's very easy to mitigate the problem by doing memory caching and delayed writting. Also storing file in localStorage is a bad idea. There are better way of caching file (offline storage, expire headers, etag, etc.)

localStorage has a lot of space for improvement, but I don't think they should stop to advocate it. It just feel like going backward.

</comment><comment><USER14> It's pretty ironic getting an invalid security certificate for hacks.mozilla.org (yeah, I'm using HTTPS everywhere). Somehow, it's using the cert for a different subdomain.

<comment><USER15> I'm getting the right cert.

<comment><USER14> It appears to be working now. I got a notification that the cert had changed since my last visit, so they probably fixed it.</comment></comment></comment>


Thoughts on Cody  – should complex movements be taught through an app? - <AUTHOR>

Curious to see peoples thoughts on Cody. As an olympic lifter the idea of a video offering that teaches me the physical cues to learn complex movements sounds like a recipe for an injury.
Can videos from world renowned trainers truly replace real-time feedback?<p>Should we try and hybridize / bridge the gap between in person training and supplementary videos? <comment><AUTHOR> ICYMI - [https://www.codyapp.com/](https://www.codyapp.com/)</comment>


Ripple effect in HTML5 canvas - <AUTHOR> http://code.almeros.com/code-examples/water-effect-canvas/ <comment><USER2> Another voice for a machine made to beg for mercy. Cool tech demo but my browser and system pretty much went to sleep running it. Nifty preview about 2-3 years too soon though this can be said for a lot of the HTML5 / Canvas demos coming out right now.

This will date me but it's a familiar cycle. Back in the 80's there were crews coming up with graphics demos and pushing the tech to its limits. Your 286/386 would melt down but it was cool to 'fly' through a pseudo 3D 256 colour tunnel. It's deja vu for me... different time, different tech, same desire to push it faster than it's developing. Not a bad thing though, just not practical... yet.

<comment><AUTHOR> Goot points. On this particular example, and in my experience, Google Chrome runs it quite smoothly on Linux. Firefox 3.6 has no hope of running it though.

<comment><USER3> On my Ubuntu 10.04 laptop with a Core 2 Duo and Intel graphics, it's actually much smoother in Firefox 4 Beta than in Chrome 9 (29 fps in Firefox vs. 11 fps in Chrome).

I don't have Chrome's dev or beta channels installed here. If I have time I'll try those out later...

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I was using FF 3.6, which has really slow JS engine. Good to know FF 4 is really catching up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wow, it's 2011 and this effect is now poorly implemented in the browser. Way to go, HTML5, way to go.

<comment><USER5> Many people complained about flash poor performance and acclaimed HTML5 as a technology that will make the web better. Well, in some ways it has, but unfortunately it will replace Flash for such effects and possibly make it worse. Everyone can write javascript as it's free. Writing Flash effects like that required and additional step: getting the software, which is expensive. This will allow for many more 'funky effects' that will may make the web an awful experience.

Note: The author created this as an experiment, which I strongly encourage. However the sentence "You could use it for nice cheesy banner effects or just to impress your site visitors" announces a misuse of the experiment.

EDIT: Any explanation why this comment was downvoted?

<comment><USER6> _Writing Flash effects like that required and additional step: getting the software, which is expensive._

This is actually not true - it's quite easy to set up a development using free tools (actually free in both senses of the word). Take a look at haXe for example.

<comment><USER5> Indeed you're right. There is also Flex SDK, however most beginners don't know that, and think they need Flash Pro or Flash Builder to get started.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> While I appreciate the skill in creating it, it does bring my macbook to its knees. Also a bit java applet circa 1999.

</comment><comment><USER8> In flash <http://flash-effects.com/swf/water_ripple_follow.swf>

</comment><comment><USER9> There was a commercial on Hulu a few months ago that I accidentally clicked on, which took me to a page (that probably used Flash, not HTML 5 canvas) that had a better ripple effect than this (almeros.com) page has. It was really sexy, but I do not know how to find it again.

</comment><comment><USER10> works pretty well in chrome.</comment>


Ask HN: How to transition from Windows to Unix - <AUTHOR>

Hello, I'm a business intelligence consultant and know that I got my current employment because of my knowledge of and skills in the Microsoft software stack. The problem is, I have some real issues with Microsoft as a company and with their software. I'm a UNIX guy at heart, having learned CS on DEC UNIX and currently have the most fun using and developing on FreeBSD systems. The issue is that once I gain experience using MS software, more jobs open up to me because of this experience so it makes it even harder to switch, not to mention the fact that a LOT of businesses are stuck in the windows mindset. Is there any hope? BI is a specific category of the industry but I'd like replies to be general for application development (.NET) types also. <comment><USER2> There are two paths before you:

The _soft transition_ process would be installing Ubuntu or Linux Mint, which are distributions that lack a lot of the "hard core" command line configuration that drives away a lot of UNIX neophytes. These distros are geared towards the end user, and the transition should be soft -- some of the programs you use normally (Word) won't be there, but replacements (LibreOffice) are at your fingertips.

The _I-want-to-learn-right-now_ path would involve installing a more technical distribution like Gentoo, FreeBSD, or (my personal favorite) ArchLinux and learning from the ground up. Based on your post it seems that you just want to get out of the Windows bandwagon rather than learn the intricacies of Linux, so this might not be the easiest option for you.

Either way, the *nix family welcomes you with open arms!

<comment><AUTHOR> I am not a UNIX noob. I've been using FreeBSD on and off for 10 years, and have developed in C++ on Unix systems on my own for about the same amount of time (have done Perl also and some Ruby too) so that is not the issue. The issue is 1) no "hard" experience working on these systems and 2) how to make what experience I do have seem applicable to businesses that do use UNIX which by the way, seems very limited after becoming aware of all the jobs we get for the MS stack. Also, for some reason my employer specifically targets MS users so that makes it even more difficult in my current position.

<comment><USER3> Perhaps getting some technical accomplishments in Solaris or one of the 'bigger' _nixes (HP/UX, AIX, et al) will give you an easier way to illustrate your_ nix experience to potential employers?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I was in the same boat. I did a dual boot of winxp and ubuntu on my laptop. I think thats the best way. As time went on I found myself using the Windows boot less and less. Now, a year later, at most 5% of the time on windows.

<comment><USER5> Or VirtualBox (or VMWare). (There's nothing novel in this suggestion, but since it hasn't been mentioned here, yet.)

If you can use it in your current work environment, you can start shifting work items over and see how it goes / (re)learn a "UNIXy" way. Having real goals, and payoffs, is a big motivator.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> IMO, OS X is the easiest path to getting familiar with UNIX. I think it captures most of the good parts of Linux/FreeBSD, but without a lot of bad ones (like bad/no graphics/wifi drivers, etc).</comment>


An unexpected application of the P vs. NP problem (2003) - cool-RR http://www.joeydevilla.com/2003/04/07/what-happened-to-me-and-the-new-girl-or-the-girl-who-cried-webmaster/

<comment><AUTHOR> A true classic, and getting a well-deserved revival of sorts due to the recent link in CodingHorror.

Well worth the read, if you haven't already.</comment>


Ask HN: Apple's "Let's Rock" Event. Where are watching it from? What are you expecting? - <AUTHOR>

I'm going to be watching MacRumors.com liveblog since they always seem to be the fastest. Though the funny liveblog commentary from the guys at Gizmodo (live.gizmodo.com) is usually good too.<p>Where are you going to watch it? <comment><USER2> I'm not going to watch it, I'm going to work. The continual obsession with new releases is generally unhealthy.

When everyone is out buying brand new versions that will break, I'll pick up the stable release from the last announcement. :-)

<comment><USER3> _I'll pick up the stable release from the last announcement._

I have bought five iPods and two Macs over the last five years. One of the Macs was new, but the rest were used or refurbished models that were at least a year old at the time of purchase.

It's a good way to save a little money and to watch the issues shake out. And Apple's refurb store is great.

Which is not to say I won't load up some Apple sites later today to find out what I'll be shopping for next year. :)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Boring problems that will never be venture scale - <AUTHOR>

I was talking to the owner of a franchise and she had issues with payments, inventory etc. Fairly niche-y problems that will never be venture scale because the effort to solve for small businesses will almost always require a large sales force that will automatically put you in the context of major returns. Similar issues with book stores other small businesses. Aside from following your passion and doing what you feel strongly about, is there an economic basis for solving boring, non venture scale problems? <comment><USER2> I'm not sure why you'd consider these to be such boring problems. Payment and inventory systems can give rise to some very complex and challenging code, since these are generally mission-critical applications for businesses and have to be very reliable. And being able to collect and analyze data from such systems can help businesses optimize their operations (e.g., by reducing inventory), which can be worth a lot of money to them.

Is figuring out algorithms for targeting ads to Facebook users or rating Uber drivers really so much more interesting than that? Most of the code that the hot "unicorn" companies are working on is really pretty mundane.

</comment><comment><USER3> Yes. Solve problem for local business. They are now your client. Continue solving problems for them while you build your client list.

This is how small businesses grow.

</comment><comment><USER4> Can you give more details on what the problems were with payments, inventory, etc.?

I thought if you purchased/funded opening a franchise they would supply you with ways to manage those types of things since that is kind of the point of a franchise, isn't it?

I've had a couple of half-ideas around this space but haven't put much effort into finding the pain it would solve.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm kind of in the middle of developing a tool for this kind of problem right now. I don't expect to get funded, and I don't know if I would accept any VC money if it were offered. I like the thought of possibly cornering a niche market and seeing how it grows over the next few years.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes, it can provide you a steady income that slowly builds over the years. I run a boring business now and while I will never make millions and get funded, it's a steady low 6-figures that will probably last another 10 years.</comment>


Show HN: Open source .NET libraries reimplementing Minecraft - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/Craft.Net

<comment><AUTHOR> With the help of plenty of other contributors, I've recreated a ton of the Minecraft ecosystem. Craft.Net supports the latest stable version of Minecraft, and the latest unstable version, and classic Minecraft.

There's an IRC channel, too: #craft.net on irc.freenode.net.

I'm pretty proud of this project, let me know what you think!</comment>


Eric Schmidt on business culture, technology, and social issues - <AUTHOR> http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/wrapper.aspx?ar=2796&url=http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/Eric_Schmidt_on_business_culture_technology_and_social_issues_2796%3Fpagenum%3D1%23schmidt&pgn=ersc11_exhibit

<comment><AUTHOR> For some reason the first time I click on the link I get an error "PLEASE ENABLE COOKIES", the second time I click on the same link it works fine!</comment>


Wolfsort: An ultra-fast hybrid radix sort algorithm - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/scandum/wolfsort <comment><USER2> > Historically software was always low on memory, and subsequently sorting > algorithms were developed that bent over backwards in order to use as little > additional memory as possible. Nowadays most modern systems have several > gigabytes of memory that are not used and are just sitting idle.

True, but on these systems, most of the time, users don't care about performance. And when they do, the dataset is not large enough for this kind of algorithms to shine anyway.

<comment><USER3> Also, memory is way slower than the CPU cache(s). So operating within a small subset of the available memory is still beneficial if you need the top performance.

<comment><USER4> There often is only a narrow range where (data + overhead) is larger than cache, but (data + 0) is smaller than cache.

Cached reads/writes arent't free either, so if overhead drastically reduces those, you may come out on top 100% of the time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > Wolfsort requires 8 times the array size in swap memory for the O(n) > partitioning process.

> Wolfsort is primarily a proof of concept, currently it only properly > supports unsigned 32 bit integers.

A lot of sorts can beat a generic sort on an array of numbers by gathering statistics, paying better attention to locality, implementation details like use of SIMD or some combination of those three.

<comment><USER6> Indeed, I wonder if someone can't write an ensemble algo of sorts that gets chosen based on some AI (not to hand wave)

<comment><USER7> See Hybrid Sorting algorithms. Here's Introsort as an example:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introsort)

<comment><USER6> All of these algos have the characteristic that a human is statically deciding on the algo/thresholds. I think there is an opportunity for some AI here, that's all I'm saying.

<comment><USER8> Even bubblesort would return in the time it would take to send the array to be sorted to the GPU

<comment> rainbow-road I assume the idea is to do some profiling and throw in some machine learning to select the perfect mix at compile time.

<comment><USER9> This is doable, but the risk is that looking at the numbers might take longer than just sorting them, even with a sub optimal algorithm.

I guess someone will just have to try this.

<comment><USER6> Here is what a human did:

It begins with quicksort, it switches to heapsort when the recursion depth exceeds a level based on (the logarithm of) the number of elements being sorted and it switches to insertion sort when the number of elements is below some threshold.

I think machines can do this too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> A bit OT: I very much appreciate well written C code for its simplicity and "rawness", but how come that many C codebases seem to place no importance on code comments?

This repo contains a few thousand lines of code without so much as a single comment. In my experience that tends to happen much less in other languages. And it's not like this C code is obvious.

<comment><USER11> C has an interesting culture of terse variable and function names, and limited comments. It comes from an entirely different mindset and time period in software. It predates most "modern" concepts of software re-usability that eventually turned into enterprise OOP practices and was crystalized in Java and C#.

It's not great anymore. The software world has moved on to understanding how important these things are (and even often takes things too far), but C seems a bit stuck in its ways.

<comment><USER12> The value of comments and references depends on the software context. If inexperienced people are expected to be editing or reading the code they're more valuable. However, they are expensive to keep in sync with changes to the implementation and the value has to balanced against this cost.

Java and C# did not replace C. They're typically used for different tasks.

Objectively speaking, do we have evidence these enterprise OOP practices lead to better software?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It seems to me that it's using a strategy similar to SpreadSort, or am I wrong?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreadsort](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreadsort)

<comment><USER14> Similar strategy. Wolfsort is stable however while SpreadSort does not appear to be so.

I wonder if wolfsort is stable and faster because it utilizes quadsort?

[https://github.com/scandum/quadsort](https://github.com/scandum/quadsort)

<comment><USER15> It does, according to the Wolfsort's readme

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> > Wolfsort is primarily a proof of concept, currently it only properly > supports unsigned 32 bit integers.

Which makes it pretty useless outside of theoretical exercises(that is not saying that theoretical exercises would be useless). What would be a practical use case to sort integers? Well, the integers can be keys to some kind of records, but if your records remain unsorted accessing them is very expensive even if you have the sorted list of keys available.

Edit: Calculating the median is a practical case. Not sure how often that is needed in performance-critical contexts.

<comment><USER8> All radix sorts only work for integers. This isn't unique to OP's algorithm.

<comment><USER17> This is true in only the strictest sense, as computers only deal with integers:

Any set of tuples/sequences can be lexicographically radix-sorted if its components can be; strings are a special case, where the components are the individual character codes.

Floating point numbers are integers with the high-order bits used for the exponent. When normalized, they can be treated as integers for sorting.

All radix sort requires is a recursively partitionable domain, and it performs optimally when the partitioning scheme matches the data distribution.</comment></comment></comment>


Say Hello to Realtime Collaboration - <AUTHOR> http://cssdeck.com/post/62/say-hello-to-realtime-collaboration

<comment><USER2> Looks like you're being hacked really bad. I got redirected to Google! It was fun to watch though! Add <iframe sandbox="allow-forms"> and you'll disable javascript. Good fast fix for now, later you'll want sandbox="allow-scripts allow-forms allow-same-origin"

The 4th allowed value for html5 iframe sandbox is allow-top-navigation, which allows a script to do window.top.location.href = '<http://google.com> and redirect someone like me.

</comment><comment><USER3> Warning, people are posting NSFW and potentially malicious stuff in the colaborative area linked to from the post.

As usual, as soon as HNers are no longer on HN proper, the inner troll comes out.

</comment><comment><USER4> This needs to override JavaScript commands to keep it from malicious use. For example, to override alert() do this:

      (function()
      {
        var proxied = window.alert;
        window.alert = function()
        {
          // replacement code here
          // call original function:
          proxied.apply(this, arguments);
        };
      })();

<comment><USER5> When I redefined alert to return false, it crashed Chrome pretty bad (note: I am not the owner).

If someone really feels like policing it, they can delete the iframe element (in FF, chrome, or opera) and just have access to the editor panes (which means no alerts, redirects, or other nastiness). I'm sure someone can figure out how to write a javascript snippet that will post some text that has been cleaned of all instances of "window.location", "alert", and probably "while". (I would do it myself, but it's 1am here).

<comment><USER4> I put in return false; and it did nothing (using Chrome v22.0.1229.56 beta-m). You wouldn't want to return false anyways, alert is not defined as returning a value (see: <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/DOM/window.alert>)

If you want to see what arguments are being passed, add a console.dir(arguments); to the code.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It would probably be a huge security risk just to visit the demo page if people weren't constantly pasting over each other with "MY PENIS" in HTML/CSS/JS

edit2- No proof of any security risks, not like I tried any

<comment><USER7> I don't recommend anyone visiting the demo page at work, it's not just the word "penis" getting spammed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I would recommend doing something about the demo page. It is going to give people a bad first impression of the tool even if it is awesome.

Maybe either turn off collaboration (which would greatly detract from the value of the demo, I know), or limit things like linking to outside images, Javascript alerts, and more malicious things. With how often everything gets overwritten, it's not as though anyone is going to be able to do anything complex that requires any of those things anyway.

</comment><comment><USER9> Too sad your site is beeing vandalized. Please resubmit when the trolls have moved on.

</comment><comment><USER10> Really, Comic Sans to promote your website authoring tool, really?

<comment><USER11> You didn't get the memo? Comic Sans is ironically cool now. It was the memo with subject line: geocities is the new Tumblr.

<comment><USER12> I was reading a 2chan thread earlier today about video game related sites with absurd amounts of detailed research about the game (ROM level information, random number table information, etc), and a surprising number of them were on geocities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Not really a new invention - see 'etherpad-lite' (also opensource) Just with a little work, it would do the same...

But nice to see how all the trolls play... Maybe this is a real good idea... A contest battelfield for trolls... (as a game)

</comment><comment><USER14> My god, visit the site, it is a shit show, but its kinda fun

Some highlights:

window.top.location.href = '<http://www.troll.com>;

function troll() { alert('troll'); troll(); } troll();

<comment><USER14> And the ascii art and canvas effects people are busting out are pretty hilarious

<comment><USER6> NSFW <http://i.imgur.com/RV7na.png>

I was just observing, didn't know I was stumbling on a live canvas when I clicked the link :)

<comment><USER15> I was actually testing if they had the iframes coming from a cross domain, which were so our ability to explode the thing is much smaller.

Poor are those who have no way to block alerts tho.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Pass the eye bleach. I don't know what STD that was, but my god, you people...

<comment><USER17> After that it's more like PTSD.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Random thought: Imagine if you could see comments on sites like HN being typed live (and the effects that would have on discussion).

<comment><USER15> Reminds of ICQ group chats back in the day.

      You're absolu
      You're absolutely wro     (backspaces start)
      You
      I respectfully disagree

Fun days.

EDIT: better dummy conversation

<comment><USER19> Oh man, that was a fantastic feature! That takes me back...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Geek trolls! The most dangerous kind! This became so hilarious I couldn't keep myself from laughing out loud in my workplace.

</comment><comment><USER21> Is there anything similar to this that doesn't require registration?

I'd love to use this for teaching HTML but I can't ask my hundreds of teenage students to all create accounts...

Collaborative isn't a must, anything with syntax highlighting and real-time previews will do.

<comment><AUTHOR> First of all, registering takes few seconds with twitter/github.

Secondly, it's not a must. Only you can register and share the collaboration URL with your 100s of students.

They can collaborate if they want to, or you can teach them in "Teacher Mode" - registration is _not_ a must!

Hope that clarifies your doubts :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Enjoy Etherpad at <http://beta.etherpad.org> and download it at <http://etherpad.org> :)

</comment><comment><USER23> Similar feature has been on Plunker (<http://plnkr.co/edit/?p=streamer>) for a while now though, perhaps, with less polish.

</comment><comment><USER24> WARNING... currently NSFW

</comment><comment><USER25> Warning: graphic/gore images (not to mention irritating JavaScript alerts, etc) on the demo page. I would highly recommend avoiding it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I think I'll do HTML/CSS/JS sessions (classes?) on this platform. If you wanna get in touch email me hello[at]cssdeck.com :)

</comment><comment><USER26> Just like <http://dump.fm> only for hackers! Could be pretty awesome!!!

</comment><comment><USER27> Really nice; I think it will be great for collaborations although the troll environment was quite hectic.

</comment><comment><USER28> Awesome and creative but how is it useful???...people already going crazy out there..

<comment><AUTHOR> If you actually create your own item and share with friends over the internet, there won't be such trolls available then. :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> It's an absolute shame what's happening on your demo right now. This is bad.

</comment><comment><USER29> WOW, that is tremendously effed.

</comment><comment><USER30> This is hilarious.

</comment><comment><USER31> This is Internet gold.

</comment><comment><USER32> Deserves an up-vote!

<comment><USER33> When you comment on a story, ask yourself this question: does my comment add value to the thread? If the answer isn't a definite "yes", consider modifying it until it does, or scrap it all together. It'll help keep the value of the conversation high.</comment></comment>


Uber's future in China at risk? - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenhuet/2015/03/19/kuaidi-didi-merger-uber-in-china/?utm_campaign=ForbesTech&utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social&utm_channel=Technology&linkId=13017223

<comment><USER2> From what I've seen, Uber has successfully got my friends as their users by a super low price. The price is slightly higher than the other local limo car services in China. But people think the experience from Uber is still much better. When they have time to wait for Uber, they would try Uber.

But low price is not sustainable. Users can transfer to the other service easily if they have offer a much lower price, which is actually easier after the merger. Kuaidi-didi also have significant advantages on payments. Alipay and WeChat makes things much easier.

Recently the government has been trying to control the "black car market". They define "black car" as the drivers who don't have a legal running taxi licence. So apparently a lot of drivers on Uber will face the risk. Uber will have to pay more to have the drivers less worried about the fine. Right now Uber is paying a lot to the drivers.

From an answer on zhihu about "what is it like to be a Uber driver in China", I don't think the experience of becoming an Uber driver in China is that good. It requires you to watch a video on YouTube and the video is in English.</comment>


You-can-program-too encouragement in early home-computer ads - <AUTHOR> http://www.bogost.com/blog/pascal_spoken_here.shtml

<comment><USER2> Oh, those program listings in computing magazines - I remember that! But it wasn't just magazines, you could buy books with programs listed in them. I don't know how many books I had at home with listings for games in them. As I had a computer that wasn't a big hit like the Apple (I had a Compucolor 2), it was the only way I had of getting new games onto my computer. The books used to come with listings for games that would cover 2-5 pages, with different variations for different computers. So, for example, there would be a listing for the Apple ][, a listing for the ZX81, a listing for the C64, and so on. Looking at those listings and figuring out what I needed to change to make the game work on my system was a big aid for learning to program - at least it was for me.

I also remember one book that had just one game in it, a text adventure game. It was called Haunted House, or something like that. Anyway, the book explained in loving detail how everything functioned, and suggested modifications that you could try to develop on your own. I think that book all by itself probably did more for teaching me... I was going to say how to program, but it wasn't exactly that, it was more how to think like a computer, because frankly the coding style of that book was dreadful. But it did help me grok arrays and variables and strings and parsing and all that good stuff.

These days it is just so much harder for kids to get into computers. For starters, I was able to write games (or at least type in the program for games) that weren't too far removed from the quality of commercial games. That just isn't true in today's world. And of course, as has been mentioned about 50 million times on HN, it is much harder to get to a programming environment on today's computers. Back then the computer booted into a BASIC interpreter, but there is no modern system that does something similar.

Anyway, that link certainly brought back some good memories!

<comment><USER3> > Back then the computer booted into a BASIC interpreter, but there is no > modern system that does something similar.

javascript+canvas. It's there, the missing piece is probably the text editor + run instructions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I was about 12 and had learned some BASIC from copying programs from magazines when my dad got a Pascal ROM. I just couldn't understand how a program could work without line numbers!

Computers were really an invitation to learn programming because they booted instantly and you could try out commands even without actually writing a program. And there wasn't much more you could do: there were no browsers and messengers and other things to take your attention. It's hard for a 12 year old to take up programming on today's machines.

</comment><comment><USER5> It seems the personal computer democratisation really started with graphical interfaces. Casual users don't have time to learn how to use command line, let alone programming.</comment>


Google Tried To Buy Path For $100+ Million. Path Said No. - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/02/google-tried-to-buy-path-for-100-million-path-said-no/

<comment><USER2> _"eventually offering $100 million for the company plus an earnout of $25 million to be paid over four years"_

Terms, terms, TERMS people. I can't believe that with 40+ comments there isn't more discussion of the terms.

It could have been $100M in Google stock on a 4-year vest, plus $25M cash on a 4-year earn-out. At those terms, it's really only a $25M deal if the founding team doesn't think they're going to sit around at Google for 4+ years.

Basically, the one sentence above tells us _very little_ about this purported offer and the reasoning for turning it down. I would wait a week for more details to emerge before jumping to any conclusions about bubbles, co-founder betrayal, or anything else.

<comment><USER3> why would the founding team leave with $75m worth of Google stock on the table, all they have to do is show up for three more years.

Given a choice between a nice job at Google with a multi-million dollar salary doing the thing you love with the resources and infrastructure of Google behind you vs going it alone, the choice seems (no matter what the terms) like a poor one. It's not like Path have any really ground breaking technology. How defensible really is the idea?

<comment><USER4> Keep in mind that two of the co-founders are Dave Morin and Shawn Fanning. The former likely made many millions (real and paper money I'd think) as manager for the Facebook platform/Facebook Connect, the latter made many millions from Napster.

So, even though this offer and this decision both leave me a bit shocked, they already have the nice job and the resources they want. (office close to the bay, downtown San Francisco/SoMA is also nicer than the drive down to Mountain View)

<comment><USER5> It does seem that the cofounders, as well as the simple domain name are a big part of the reason they can get an offer like this. It does seem though there are a heap of services out there doing basically the same thing and tweaking the parameters a bit, like the friends list size, sure they could end up quiet successful but it's a big gamble I guess only those already financially secure could afford to take.

It does matter a bit about the terms to, who knows, maybe Google wanted to roll it into their upcoming offering instead of having it as a standalone which would be a deal break for those heavily invested in their concept.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Given the app isn't particularly popular or compelling, I'm a bit incredulous over the fact that you only need a couple of internet-famous co-founders to warrant a $100MM offer.

<comment><USER7> I won't conclude that there wasn't more to offer than just internet fame, but I will say that brand is something that companies will pay a big premium for.

<comment><USER8> Perhaps, but Google hasn't been one of those companies, Google Earth and Google Analytics are both things they acquired --- and immediately rebranded. (Originally Keyhole and Urchin respectively.)

In any case, I'm not sure Path has yet established enough of a brand to be worth that kind of premium.

<comment><USER9> They acquired and kept the names for Android, Dodgeball, and Picasa.

Google Path has a nice ring to it and would integrate well within their current product lineup.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Time for a new startup: Path-on. Social sharing of pictures of coupons. Mobile x realtime x commerce. Already valued at $2B. Who's with me?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm in! But, it wouldn't be complete w/o social Q&A - maybe Quopath-on?

<comment><USER10> Path-on-ura

<comment><AUTHOR> Sounds like a bad infection

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> 100M for path? Talk about highly inflated valuations. We are clearly in Tulip Mania times.

<comment><USER12> To be fair, they raised funding at more modest (but still crazy, depending on perspective) 25m pre according to the article. Seems like Google is just looking for ways to spend their cash.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I wonder if Google is worried (or should be worried) about these recent high- profile rejections of its very generous acquisition offers? Yelp, Groupon, Path, etc.

<comment><USER14> Are there any companies who also turned down offers from Google? The three you mentioned are the only ones I can think of.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Wow. He screwed over his cofounder(s).

<comment><USER16> As easy as that is to say, this isn't a get-bought-and-get-paid company; it's a shake-up-the-world company. I'm sure he and his co-founders discussed that at length and understand it.

And ultimately, if you have a remarkable team with strong financial backing, isn't that the type of company you really want to work for?

<comment><USER17> how exactly is it going to shake up the world? I see the best case as more of a mild rattling of the world- a more human social networking, which will either softly nudge people in this direction, move other networking players closer to the real-world social model, or be a sort of nice subtle tool in the mobile social web.

In no way is it something that as currently formed has a really big dollar exit potential- i mean, ideally, the product will never become very valuable to advertisers. If they monetize some other way which can scale big, then they're way smarter than I can imagine, but i don't see the data aggregation model or traditional ad model working with this product...it's a very techie- oriented app at this point in time. The benefits are not visible at all to "normals", and there is no business use case like twitter/FB have to accelerate adoption as a platform.

The world has no idea Path exists yet, so there is a while to go before anything is going to be shaken up at least outside of the bay area.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "they loved the team"

That's a _lot_ of love.

</comment><comment><USER3> what a bad name, it's hard to even search for them. Turning down $100m was insanity, and the friction between co-founders will very likely fester and be terminal for them.

<comment><USER7> There are very few examples of companies turning down large offers and subsequently regretting it. There has to be something pretty good going on to get an offer like that.

<comment><USER3> I worked for one, Pointcast

<comment><USER2> I can think of no other Internet company that was so far (a decade?) ahead of its time.

I loved that damn product so much. This has nothing to do with the thread, but I just want you to know that you had at least one rabid fan from 1994 - 1998.

<comment><USER3> thank you - it was a good product, but sadly the company melted down, took something that worked and decided to spend a year re-writing it in COM; meanwhile portal sits like Yahoo! came along and eat their lunch. A disastrous CEO that turned down a huge exit opportunity was replaced with an equally disastrous one that spent most of his time worrying about what particular rain forest he wanted chopped down to have this desk made from.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> That's an insane offer for such a young company.

I guess the team turned it down in the hopes Path will be many times the offer. I just don't see how an iPhone app can worth more than $120 million. I think the most successful app would be angry birds, but i doubt even the most optimistic valuation would put them over one billion.

<comment><USER20> Angry Birds, in a sane world, should be worth no where near one billion. They have sold less than 100 million copies, and I doubt they can keep on repeating their success year after year. It's a fad that will soon be replaced, just like Doodle Jump and Flight Control before it.

<comment><USER21> I don't know. I don't think Angry Birds is an interesting game, but it's obviously blowing up like mad, so I don't pretend that any rational dictum will predict that it dies down.

You don't see plushies and fan art for the other games - and you shouldn't ignore all the ways the creators profit from the franchise. They also make a bunch of themed releases like Halloween. They may also have hit a tweenage demographic susceptible to crap like Silly Bandz, Bratz, and other inane ztuff.

They even have an ad ready for Superbowl(!).

<comment><USER22> You've missed the point. Sure, it's 'blowing up like mad' but the important thing is that Roxio have been able to turn the Angry Birds game into a brand: selling movie rights (!) something even EA struggle with, so quickly, getting a deal with FOX for marketing and developing a range of real-world merch to go along.

All on the back of one simple little app that looks and feels like a flash game. (i love it, don't get me wrong, but it is not anything special)

Did Harbor Master or Flight Control do this? No.

It takes a lot to think big and that's where the big players are-- and worth a good chunk of money too.

<comment><USER20> I don't think real-world merchandise will save them when the next hit game storms the charts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Any thoughtful speculation about why they said no? It seems to me more like a personal vendetta response from a Facebook-faithful (i.e. anti-Google) than justified by economical reason.

A niche social network platform acquired for $100MM? That's outlandish enough. I can't imagine their value exceeding that later on.

</comment><comment><USER24> Open question: is there any material valuation to the business (and operations) besides the team in a story like this?

</comment><comment><USER25> Wow. And I thought groupon turning down 6bil was crazy ...

Back in the mid 80s companies would have killed for money like this!

</comment><comment> brown9-2 Offers like this really reinforce the conventional wisdom that your best bet to make it big is to strike out on your own, build something that a big company would like to get into and then sell it to them.

No employee pushing a social network idea or design proposals within Google is going to get compensation anything like this.

</comment><comment><USER26> Path's name itself reveals the nature of their choice. Getting bought out is the end of their startup story, the conclusion of their "path". While the choice is apparently absurd, it at least stays true to their company's core values. The sad observation is that Path simply isn't a valuable enough product to create a great story unless they undergo massive pivots. So it begs the question as to the motive, is this anything more than a silicon valley ego contest? Parker was fictionalized in The Social Network, Fanning wasn't. Perhaps the purpose of the choice is to put themselves on a path to fame by creating not a groundbreaking product but a breath taking story, the path they blaze.

</comment><comment><USER27> Why wait to see if it's worth a billion when you can hedge it at 10% today?

</comment><comment><USER28> Hey Google, take that 100+ Million and start your own YC of sorts.

</comment><comment><USER29> How did they burn through $2.5mm that quickly?

</comment><comment><USER30> I think they're waiting for an offer from the mothership, AKA Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER31> This is Madness! THIS IS SILICON VALLEYYY!!!

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qR0Uke2XNI>

I find it interesting that Google would be willing to pay $100M for "the team's "design skills," and were very enthusiastic to get a prominent ex- Facebooker, Morin, at Google. They hoped it might help Google recruit more Facebook employees over time."

They've taken a big gamble by not selling at $100mil, which seems very generous. It'll be interesting to see where they end up in 5 years.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Maybe going the Groupon route? Or, trying to. It's hard to know whether or not they know things that the general public and Google doesn't, or that Google knows something we don't.

Interested to see how this pans out on both sides and the industry's reactions along the way! Thanks for all the comments.

</comment><comment><USER32> Interesting metrics on the growth and engagement rate. FWIW, I am seeing similar metrics at my group texting site (groupflier.com), a 15% engagement rate and linear group growth. I wonder if that is the natural growth rate of closed groups?

</comment><comment><USER33> I wonder how well the suited to each other the founders thought they were when they started out.

I'm willing to bet they didn't talk about, or at least see eye to eye on the endgame.

<comment><USER33> Sidebar: The only way to update your own path is with an iOS4 only app? It can't even be done through the website? This just seems wrong to me.

I know they must be working on an Android version as they are hiring for that position, but still not being able to update through the web interface seems silly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> It's interesting to me that they turned down a $100M+ offer and raised at only a $25M pre-money valuation. Wouldn't it make more sense to raise at close to $100M pre-money?

<comment><USER35> Not if they anticipated raising more money later. Raising at $100M means they were setting themselves up for a down-round when they next raised (i.e. raising at less than $100M).

Unless they're _extremely_ confident that they'd be valued at more than $100M in their next financing round, raising at less than $100M sounds like the smart, um, path.

<comment><USER21> But isn't this problematic, since they would have to raise more money later on, considering that they'll be diluting their shares a lot.

Doing a $5M seed round at a $25M valuation _after_ Google's offer is, what, a dilution of 20% total shares?

I get that they can't do an evaluation that is higher than the next one, but they must really have recented taking the offer - perhaps for reasons of working at Google for four years for the $25M bonus.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Why would you turn down $100+ million? I honestly am not sure where Path is headed. I am at loss for words on this one...

Google must see something?

</comment><comment><USER37> Are they looking to be bought by Facebook instead?

</comment><comment><USER38> Great decision, Path. $100M is not cool. You know what is cool? $1 Billion.

<comment><USER21> Must be Aaron Sorkin's compelling writing that influenced the decision.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Money flows like wine in the valley.

<comment><USER40> And as we all know, wine eventually turns to piss - and a bunch of stupid stupid txting decisions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> This discussion is lame because it has no context. Here's what I know. Dave's already independently wealthy. His girlfriend is something of a big deal at Google. He killed it for Facebook spearheading the Facebook Platform. Google is losing at social and it really cares about it.

<comment> brown9-2 I think that's what most of the discussion is actually centering on, but without really saying it - "losing at social and it really cares about it" is starting to translate into moves that seem quite extreme and seem to have less to do with rationality than M&A fever.</comment></comment>


Ask HN:Is it possible to make an app in Node.js same as a RoR app? - <AUTHOR>

I have an idea to make an educational web application but i couldn't decide which technology to use like PHP, RoR or Node.js? Please give some advice. <comment><USER2> Ruby on Rails is a good platform for building applications which are essentially large content management systems, with very relational content. If you can break your application down nicely into resource/data models, then Rails is a great way to build it, and very powerful.

Alternatively, if your application is much more about processes, and data isn't as important, or isn't as relational, Node.js might be a better thing to develop in it. The main problem with Node at the moment however is that it's much less mature than the Rails/Ruby community, and lacks the higher level frameworks like Rails.

I can't recommend PHP for anything at all, unless you've got 10 years PHP experience and don't want to learn a new technology. Although I'm guessing that isn't the case from the wording of your question.

Some other things you might want to consider: Python and Django are similar to Ruby/Rails. I think Rails is a bit more capable, but Django is easier to learn. C# and Microsoft's MVC stack is remarkably good - I usually don't work with anything Microsoft based, but was given a project that required it, I was very impressed.

</comment><comment><USER3> You use the one which you are the most confortable with.

<comment><USER4> This. If it's a significant app just use what you're already comfortable with. Don't go crazy trying to pick a tech stack, it really doesn't matter much anyway.

Also, I can't speak for PHP but there aren't any frameworks for Node that does nearly as much as Rails does (Sails[1] being the closest, but yet still far)

[1] [http://sailsjs.org/](http://sailsjs.org/)

<comment><USER5> For PHP it would be laravel ([http://laravel.com/](http://laravel.com/))

Though personally I won't work with it unless it's running Twig for templates. To each their own, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 1\. Working with Node.js will keep you relaxed with a unified language on both ends of your web application.

2\. It has also proven to be faster and more smoothly scalable than Ruby on Rails.

3\. You'll find a good community support and lot, a lot of modules for nearly any purpose you seek in your application.

4\. Many industries are moving to use it (Microsoft, LinkedIn, PayPal, NYTimes ... )

</comment><comment><USER7> As far as I can tell, the area that you will have the biggest issue in node.js is if your data models are highly relational. Last I checked, there wasn't a robust node.js ORM for SQL data stores. Otherwise don't fret it, just get building.

Also, as long as you're looking at all those options, don't forget about Python/Django.

</comment><comment><USER8> It really depends on your application. Each language, platform and framework has a niche. Depending on what you're doing none of the above might even be the answer. You might be better served a serverless solution like firebase.

</comment><comment><USER9> there's no mainstream RoR analog in node.js, unless you consider Meteor, which has a very specific niche that doesn't apply to most sites.

It really comes down to what you know best, what you can get other developers for the easiest, and what is most easily maintained over the long term.

</comment><comment><USER10> Can you give us more information about your programming background (if any)?

<comment><AUTHOR> Undergraduation in CS. And i am good at C/C++,bit of c# and Java and I am familiar with RoR.

<comment><USER10> Like others said use what you feel you are most comfortable with. The reason is that when you don't like the technology you're using, no matter how popular or advanced it is, there is a possibility that you might lose interest.

But that's only a 'possibility,' we don't know you personally so we can't judge how determined you are to achieve your goals no matter what.</comment></comment></comment>


Framer Playground - <AUTHOR> https://www.framer.com/blog/posts/introducing-framer-playground/ <comment><USER2> We have blended code and a canvas for rapid prototyping with React. You can code your own components, use our excellent library to add animations and gestures (based on Popmotion) and visually compose them on the canvas.

[https://www.framer.com/api](https://www.framer.com/api)

</comment><comment><USER3> Really excited to see this. The built-in code editor feels like a small step- change, but it's one of the features I miss most from Framer classic.

As a designer, being able to easily jump between code and design for complex prototypes makes my workflow dramatically faster. Love seeing the continued evolution of Framer X.</comment>