Why I now, unfortunately, hate Hacker News.. - <AUTHOR> I joined Hacker News around 5 years ago. I used to wake up and do the grim commute each morning to London from my home and the only thing that made it vaguely ok was Hacker News. It was a great place to go and find interesting articles from genuinely passionate people. It also used to be a really safe place to launch a startup that you'd spent days, weeks, years on - your project. It was a place where you could launch your startup and know you'd get great constructive feedback. People may not necessarily like your site but they'd admire you for having the balls to launch it, for spending time developing something that you hoped could benefit people in some way. They'd want you to succeed and they'd try and help you succeed with feedback that would ultimately help you. Unfortunately, today's Hacker News audience is no longer the same. Today's Hacker News is a place where users want to snipe at other users and find negative aspects to anything thing submitted. No longer does someone say 'This and this I like but this needs work'. Oh no, now the response is 'Hate this, hate that, this is pointless.'. Hacker News now is about correcting grammar and points scoring. It is pointing out anything negative at all that anyone has done, has said. It is no longer a safe place. It has fast become an acidic forum.
I've launched 2 projects (11kclub and Favilous) on here over the last year - both got a similar response. There was nothing constructive, it was just sniping - they saw someone had put themselves up there and they just shot them down. It's a real shame. I hope one day the site returns with the kind of audience it once had. Until that happens, I won't be going on my favourite site anymore - the commute just got a whole lot longer.
For now I wish you all the best...
Thanks
Steve <comment><USER5> It's a genuine problem and has been growing gradually worse for a while. I think the cause is simply growth. When a good community grows, it becomes worse in two ways: (a) more recent arrivals don't have as much of whatever quality distinguished the original members, and (b) the large size of the group makes people behave worse, because there is more anonymity in a larger group.

I've spent many hours over the past several years trying to understand and mitigate such problems. I've come up with a bunch of tweaks that worked, and I have hopes I'll be able to come up with more.

The idea I'm currently investigating, in case anyone is curious, is that votes rather than comments may be the easiest place to attack this problem. Although snarky comments themselves are the most obvious symptom, I suspect that voting is on average dumber than commenting, because it requires so much less work. So I'm going to try to see if it's possible to identify people who consistently upvote nasty comments and if so count their votes less.

<comment><USER6> Sometimes saying an idea is pointless _is_ positive feedback, there are a lot of people here that 'launch a startup' which basically means some half-assed website that does something utterly pointless and then expect the community to be like some kind of benevolent uncle and pat them on the back and say what an awesome idea and execution. _Many many_ ideas really are pointless and negative criticism is very much a part of being an adult. This isn't grade school where it's all about self esteem boosting.

The OP sounds like he should find some other support group, this is a community of smart people that will quite happily - and quite rightly - <USER2> any pointless idea apart.

If you're going to editorialize and discount any comments/votes you consider not aligned with boosting anyone's self esteem, or what you consider negative you will create an artificial community - one that is the website equivalent of the _old boys network_ , where the old timers consider themselves superior to the newcomers. Negative comments can be as useful as all the back patting attaboys.

If you really want to do this, the simplest solution is one I am sure you're aware of. Pick a few dozen people you 'like' (their voting habits) to train a Bayesian classifier, then you can weight those those that don't fall in-line with the way you'd like to see you community behave.

Can't we all just act like adults and learn to deal with the negative comments - possibly even learn from the? Do we really need to protected from snarky comments?

This reminds me of a comment thread I saw earlier about people getting bent out of shape by cell phone usage in restaurants! I find lots of things are annoying, loud trucks/buses, cyclists that ignore road signs, rude people etc etc, but I am not going to complain and try to stop buses or give discounts to people who drive to discourage cycling. People need to start learning to cope with the real world and not expecting 'the system' to protect us from ourselves. It's embarrassing to be part of a community that needs voting bias that only encourages positive comments.

<comment><USER7> Here's a thread from 847 days ago full of people being mean and negative about Groupon: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1288116>

Today, Groupon stock is worthless, and the company is doomed. Should the people in that thread be penalized for being right, but mean?

<comment><USER8> Most companies fail. It's a _safe_ bet to predict failure. It's pretty lame to celebrate that failure from the sidelines.

Vision is not "how is this guaranteed to fail?" but how could it possibly succeed despite the odds?

Which voice do you want to bring to this community?

<comment><USER9> Groupon didn't "fail", instead it has been astonishingly successful.

However, around the time of it's IPO it was receiving so much undeserved hype that in comparison to THOSE lofty goals it appears to have failed. HN readers at the time were pointing out the hype, and I think that is a GOOD thing.

Nevertheless, I agree that the tone of the community could be better and I will strive to adjust my own comments to reflect that.

<comment><USER8> Thank you for the correction. My intent was not to speak to the state of Groupon. Groupon has had far more success and impact than anything I have created to date. I felt it best to not argue with the parent and focus on the attitude behind the comment and not an assessment of Groupon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I can't speak for other users, but I'd rather see more project launches than any of the following types of submissions:

\- Rumors about what Apple will do next week, and the ensuing flamewars between Apple fans and Android fans

\- TorrentFreak articles of any kind

\- Overbearing hype about the latest fad (App.net at the moment)

\- Mindless hatred towards the latest villain (Twitter at the moment)

\- Anything political that's posted under the justification that "all hackers need to care about politics"

Sorry to see you go, I hope that you find somewhere with more civil discourse.

<comment><USER11> _I can't speak for other users, but I'd rather see more project launches than any of the following types of submissions:_

Agreed. "Show HN" posts are probably the most important part of HN to me. I don't always comment, but I always enjoy seeing them, and I love it when you see somebody post something that _is_ incredibly useful to the OP. It warms the heart to see one of those conversations that goes:

 _somerandomuser_ "I like this, but FOO seems kinda wonky. We did something similar once, and found that BAR increased our conversion rate by 12.9%"

 _submitter_ "Holy shit, that's a great idea. I never thought of that, but I'm going to implement that tonight! Thanks for sharing."

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hi Steve,

I don't know if you are going to read this, but I'm going to write it for the rest of the audience too.

I think the trend of dismissing critics and commenting along the lines of "sour grapes" or "haters" very disturbing. Yes I go against your commentary. The great thing about internet and communities based on pseudonyms is that you get the first reaction that people have. Very few will take a few minutes to give their opinion, weight the different possibilities etc... It's brutal, it's direct. If you have run a service online you certainly know that you receive very angry/ threatening emails from people that use your services and are displeased. If it disturbs you it means that you are not ready for having a personal project on display, it's as simple as that. People in life and particularly on the internet are very angry and you have disturbed individuals. Opening a service with your name and your address is becoming some kind of "celebrity", people will HATE you for no good reason.

To come back to what I think is bad/annoying on Hacker News is of a different nature and I'll list a few:

* Well thought comments are often ignored and not read ( not up/downvoted, just ignored )

* Stardom: No matter what they post some ""famous"" people around here get their post on the front page. By courtesy I won't list who they are but everybody can spot it pretty easily. I'm very disappointed by this attitude personally, and it doesn't speak highly of a place that is supposed to be almost a pure meritocracy.

* Fads/ Jealousy: A lot of people here want to be rich and famous thus it creates tension. It allows me to come back to your point: these people are likely going to dismiss your ideas based on jealousy.

* Over-repetition of some stories ad nauseum: dumb benchmarks to see the number of req/s, analysis App.net, Education sucks...

All that being said it remains an interesting community but with some drawbacks. I guess nothing can have it all.

<comment><USER13> With all due respect, I think you missed the point of this post. The OP is not dismissing critics with claims of "sour grapes" and "hating". He is saying that the community is no longer a "safe place" where he feels OK to share work in its early stages.

In other words, he was not saying that negative criticism should be dismissed. He was saying that there is too much negativity for him to find the site enjoyable and that he thinks the change in attitude is for the worse.

That said, I also think that you're off the mark when you say the OP is not ready for having a personal project on display. The premise of OP's note is that he considered HN to be a more positive, supportive community than the larger Internet. There is nothing wrong with wanting to associate yourself with people who will build you up rather than tear you down. If Steve's been using HN for five years, he's probably well aware of how vicious people can be on the Internet. It sounds like he's sad that HN isn't a haven from this viciousness like it once was. And just because he's sad that this one community has deteriorated, that doesn't mean he's not capable of handling the slings and arrows of the wider Internet population.

<comment><USER14> Maybe we need a new headline. Instead of "Show HN" it's "Get Constructive Criticism from HN," and it's intended for products in the early stage.

<comment><USER15> that would be awesome. maybe a hotornot for hackernews

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I spent the time and read your post for reviewing Favilous* and I have no idea why you think there was nothing constructive there. Frankly, it looks like _mostly_ constructive. Most of the comments are even in your format of 'I like this but this needs work' for goodness sakes. I don't know what you expect. If anything, they pulled a lot of punches.

I've had the exact opposite reaction as you. I disliked the old HN community. It felt like a circle jerk who would hype each other up and offer little to no constructive criticism. Products that clearly had no defensible business models or clones of clones that would rely on kickbum business execution to see any adoption. You still see the same thing today, but at least there is some dissent.

I'm glad HN is no longer a place where clones of other platforms cobbled together in a few hours gets praised as the greatest thing since the memristor.

* <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1060022>

<comment><USER17> The 11kclub post (mod deleted, it seems)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4323459>

BTW it seems OP has multiple accounts sw1205, sw007 and mdoyle at least. So it's a bit tricky to get the context of what is this about.

It seems the sour end of the 11kclub thread was about a witch hunt by some HN users finding out the submission had conflict of interests. (Myself, I don't see it and I don't care)

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4325159>

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Sigh.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people being negative. 99% of startups fail, and I think it's worthwhile reminding people of that every now and then. Hacker News shouldn't live in some magical land where everyone is going to make the next billion dollar company.

If you truly, genuinely, believe in your idea then you can take the negativity in your stride. There will be plenty of constructive feedback buried in there somewhere. If you can't take a little negativity directed towards your project, then maybe you're in the wrong business. And maybe it _is_ a bad idea. Sometimes it's best to find that out and move onto a new idea, rather than bathe in the vague compliments of your peers.

<comment> jack-r-abbit > _And maybe it is a bad idea._

^This.

Sometimes people feel very passionate about something and they get tunnel vision. They invest hours, weeks, years on something and to them it is going to be the next big thing that will get the girl, kill the baddies... and save the entire planet[1]. But guess what? Sometimes... _sometimes_... it really is just shit. _Sorry to tell you this but your idea sucks... or the execution sucks... or both._ [ _strawman alert_ ] If all you want to hear is how awesome it is, then go show it to your mum. I'm sure she'll tell you how special you are and that you can do no wrong.

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aD3XSOBCxk>

<comment><USER11> _If all you want to hear is how awesome it is, then go show it to your mum. I'm sure she'll tell you how special you are and that you can do no wrong._

Sounds like a strawman to me. Who here has said anything about wanting nothing but positivity, or to be told how awesome they are? Even negativity can be combined with encouragement and support. And it doesn't really cost anymore to do that.

A. "Your idea is pretty bad. You suck. Kill yourself."

B. "Your idea is pretty bad; have you considered XXX? At any rate, best of luck to you!"

OK, to be fair, (B) cost a few more characters of typing for the pedants in the audience. But there's no _significant_ extra cost involved with throwing a little encouragement and support someone's way.

<comment><AUTHOR> Mindcrime hits the nail on the head. I don't want people telling me how awesome my project is - no where in my OP have I said that. My mum would be my toughest critic but she'd also be my fairest and explain to me what she liked but more importantly how something I'd done could be made better. That's what HN was to me - a place for amazing constructive feedback. Constructive feedback is something much different to criticism - which is where HN finds itself today imo.

<comment> jack-r-abbit The 11K Club: I like the site design. I think the muted wood grain back ground is kind of cool. I have no idea what the site is for. The ToS scares me ( _The more people you refer ... the higher your chances of becoming a member_ ~ o_0)

Favilous: It looks like a bookmarking site. Solid site design and layout. Not too cluttered. I don't use bookmarking sites so I can't really comment on how it is different/better than other bookmarking sites.

Edit: Ok I see from posts here what 11kclub is. I'm not sure why user napillo is hellbanned but [s?]he makes a good point here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4397318>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I wonder if we are being trolled. sw007 has been a member for just 18 months[0], not five years, and in that time he has only submitted "Ask HN" or "Show HN" posts and written only a handful of comments, half of them being on this post.

Steve never participated in the community. He used the community when it suited him to get advice, and after 18 months of not liking the advice he received, he quits.

I am not defending negativity, but participating in a community is essential in understanding it. Maybe Steves expectations were far to high, or he come here looking for positive affirmation. I would prefer HN to stay honest and objective, providing constructive criticism and encouragement, rather than just praising each other.

[0] <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=sw007>

<comment><USER20> I don't think it's beneficial to this discussion to be so cynical about sw007's intentions or motives. Many contributors to the site have multiple accounts, or have moved from an older to a newer one. Attacking his/her credibility doesn't further the conversation, especially as a number of people seem to agree that it's a point worth discussing.

It's almost besides the point, but if you'd researched a bit further you would have found a post confirming that this is an alias of another account.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I was going to post the same thing. I felt physically sick reading some of the vile comments to the makr.io team. They took it with a smile, and I applaud them for it, but that stuff hurts.

I've noted a substantial drop in show HN posts, which I love, over the past weeks and an increase in bullshit media sensationalism :"twitter says : drop dead".

Reasons? I say a rise in celebrity users and those seeking to impress them and a lack of recent presence from Pg. He needs to whip that front page back to what it's all about - hackers and startups.

<comment><USER22> _I felt physically sick reading some of the vile comments to the makr.io team_

You're not the only one. I have, in the past, tried to say things like "hey now, we can do better than this" to people being negative in a malicious way. Maybe we should all be more persistent in nudging people toward civility?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> In my view, the main thing to change about this community over the last 5 years is that it's simply gotten bigger. As a result, the range of individuals you see is more diverse and the more there are a greater range of interests represented.

There is a nostalgia associated with when the community was smaller and more intimate and I think that's what drives people to make claims about how things are declining. And I can relate to that. But, the fact is that there have always been "negative" people here, as there are in any community, and there always will be. But there are also a lot of people who have a lot of positive feedback to contribute. I know that it is increasingly difficult to get your ideas heard by those who are willing to provide feedback, but that's to be expected as a community grows.

This site remains, for me, the go-to source for intelligent, thoughtful, informed discussion on tech/hacking-related issues.

<comment><USER24> I've been here 5 years as well, and there's always been an element of knee- jerk negativity, but if anything I've noticed less of it lately. The community has always valued intellegent discussion over mindlessly cheerleading eachother. I do see unconstructive negativity here and there, but it tends to fall to the bottom pretty quickly.

<comment><USER25> I think the difference now is, the negativity was dealt with by the community pretty severely. I lurked for a long time, then joined and now I rarely participate, in total I have probably been reading HN for over 5 years, and actively commenting for over 3. To me it seems like the community policing itself, and the individuals that helped have been overrun by a larger community that is apathetic to the negativity.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> HN is just like any other social network.

I've run a social network for writers called Scribophile for almost 5 years now. People have said exactly what you're saying in this post about my site, all the way from day 1 to the present day. Too much negativity, people are out to get me, everybody is mean, person X is poisonous but I'm actually very nice, things used to be better in the "good old days".

But as an impartial observer (I, strangely enough, don't really participate in my own site), I can say that things haven't really changed that much in 5 years. There were nice people then, there are nice people now. There were jerks then, there were jerks now.

Any place you get messy, emotional people together in an anonymous social situation, this is going to happen. What is also guaranteed to happen--and I think your post is illustrative of this--is long-timers will grow bored and decide to drift off. A guy (I can't remember his name right now) wrote an insightful post about this and called it "evaporative cooling". It happens to every single community, in mine, and in HN.

Does that mean HN is on an irreversible slide into decadence? Not really. It just means you're over the community, and it's time for you to move on. In reality I doubt the general vibe of HN has changed _that_ much over the years. Otherwise nobody would be here.

However as an administrator of a community, I can tell you that I certainly _do not_ appreciate disappointed, emotional, "it's not the good old days"-style, long-winded farewells. If people aren't finding a site useful, then just leave, or send a private note to the administrator with your thoughts. Absolutely nothing good comes out of a public complaint-fest. Sorry if that sounds harsh and brutal.

<comment><USER14> _long-timers will grow bored and decide to drift off_

This is why the community needs to always bring in new users. I see some people talking in other comments on this page about how to stop the new users, but if you aren't bringing in anyone new you are only shrinking.

In HN brings in no new users, it will be dead in 5 years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Just wanted to share my perspective as someone who is relatively new to HN, but has had some successful (if that's the right word) threads about my projects.

The first post I submitted was a most-mortem about my startup. IIRC, it make the top 5 briefly. The doors opened to me because of that were shocking. I had many job offers, phone conversations with a few well-known tech personalities, and tons of traffic.

At the time, I felt the comments on HN were _extremely_ negative. But, many opportunities and contacts arose from that thread outside of HN.

Later, someone posted my new ebook landing page to HN. The ensuing traffic built up my email newsletter and is still one of the main sources for my sales. Again, the comments on HN were very negative, but I met lots of positive, supportive, excited folks when they signed up to my newsletter or followed me on twitter. All because they found me on HN.

From these experiences, here's what I've learned about HN. It might not be very surprising:

-There is a very negative and very vocal minority that comments actively.

-There are many more positive, helpful people lurking. (If you can find them.)

-If you post your project to HN, you better have thick skin.

-HN is not only a great source for news, it's a powerful resource for founders.

-Because of all the strange and hidden rules about up-voting, getting your project in front of people on HN is all about luck. It has nothing to do with you.

*edited for bullet point fail.

</comment><comment><USER28> Here's the thing: Not everyone is super confident, not everyone has a thick skin. So when people just snipe it really damages that person and potentially their idea.

It would be fine if ALL the good ideas were made by super confident thick skinned people but they are not. So we, as a species, just lose the potential of the less confident, thin skinned people. This is a HUGE waste of talent. This community should be here to fix that.

Now it's true that in the wide world, thin skinned people need to 'toughen up'. THIS community should be here to help them by helping, guiding and supporting. After all that is what communities are for.

I agree with sw007 that this community is atm worth less than it was a few years ago due to this.

<comment><USER29> However, if they are thin-skinned, a tech startup is not the place to be. Better to weed out the insecure before they invest their entire life into something. If anything HN has made me stronger -- if one of my ideas flies well among this crowd, then talking to a skeptical VC is cake. And, it would seem that most of the harshness is well meaning. In NYC, bluntness isn't considered rude, it's actually doing the other person a favor -- we don't have time for smoke to be blown up one's ass.

I think my main complaint about HN is the cyclical obsession with the Torrent/Kim Dotcom/Wikileaks side of things. There is a sizable minority that seem to have some ignorant idealism that everything should be free and that developers/musicians/filmmakers ought to just produce content simply out of the joy of doing so, while neglecting that if you give away the store, you can't pay your bills. The recent story about the 200,000 downloads game devs who were now homeless illustrates what happens when that logic is actually implemented.

As Fred Wilson has said, the key to reducing piracy (and the need for it) is the frictionless, low-cost ability to acquire desired content.

I'm am glad that the Bitcoin fad seems to have faded from the HN pages. The fringe types (constantly looking for conspiracies, no problems with "warez" and very "hack the planet" (i.e. Hackers (1995)) seem to provide some interesting "color" but also occasionally drown out the original purpose of HN -- startup-related news and the technologies involved therein.

I was a late comer to the party, so perhaps I'm part of the problem, but still, on the whole, HN, even with its snark, is a great place to be and I'm proud to have earned a few Karma points over the last year.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> "Unfortunately, today's Hacker News audience is no longer the same. Today's Hacker News is a place where users want to snipe at other users and find negative aspects to anything thing submitted."

You base this statement on a sample size of N=2. On many Show HN submissions I tend to see just the opposite, people act as test users/engineers/etc for _free_ and then write their impressions.

The problem that you faced, I think, is one I (and others) have noticed before: HN response dynamics is not stationary, i.e. it tends to change quite a bit with time of day (different moods or geographic audiences?), time of week (TGIF or the reverse effect), and even by time of month (full moon?). There are many posts analyzing the optimal time to post.

Having your project (or thoughts) bluntly criticized publicly can be painful. One solution could be: (i) Closely read and re-read comments offering constructive criticism (ii) ignore "snarky", etc. comments _but_ note their ratio to the constructive ones, if the SNR is low then you _have_ to think what on your product triggered such an outpouring.

</comment><comment><USER31> Can someone provide an example of an online community that has an appropriately positive attitude?

Hacker News is the most civil, useful and intelligent conversation on the internet, period. HN is easily two standard deviations less cruel or petty than any other discussion site you could name. The rest of the internet makes us look like Miss Manners.

I'm sorry that people weren't supportive of your personal projects, sw007. But do you have any idea how much worse things would have been on reddit? TechCrunch comments? God forbid, 4chan?

HN is an amazing resource and I'm glad to have it. The top comment is always 1) the other side of the argument being presented in the story or 2) information from someone on the inside (ie, "I work at fb and here is what is really going on"). If there's any online discussion site that's significantly more positive than Hacker News, I'd love to hear about it.

<comment><USER32> Gotta agree with this. Most of the really bad comments I've seen on HN wind up downvoted to light grey. Here, negative feedback directly to a creator is almost always constructive, even if you don't like the tone.

It's still the best you're going to get on any public forum I'm aware of.

> TechCrunch comments?

And those have real Facebook identities attached to _everyone_. I'm amazed at the things people will say even when it has their name on it and will be out there forever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> This is not something specific to hacker news IMHO. The "cool kids" are ruining the hacking culture, that is, there is an emerging cultural movement of programmers with big stress on critiques, trolling, culture of image (hipster-alike dressing), technology as fashion (always use the latest thing), drink at confs or you are a l00ser, no respect for other people's work, and so forth.

Resist to this guys, stay on HN and provide worthwhile comments and votes. They are their selves a brief fashion that will go away in some time.

Also my feeling is that while stupidity accounts for 99% of all this (as usually), there is a small part of it that is driven by interests about polarising social medias where there are many programmers so that technology X or Y looks cool and technology Z looks lame.

</comment><comment><USER34> Recently it seems like Hacker News is just a place people use for marketing and posting links to other blogs, it's truly more like a social bookmarking site by now than it is about the feedback and community. I still have Hacker News in my Google Reader feed but it's becoming more and more about people who find an interesting page and posting it, even if the post was from 4 years ago and was on Hacker News 10 times already, it is still posted. There are no moderators, but if there were it would be restrictive. Can you think of a better solution to save Hacker News or would it turn into jumping from one site to another and trying to have the startup community follow but leave behind the unwanteds?

<comment><USER35> I read HN in Google Reader as well. Do you use the regular or big RSS feed?

<comment><USER34> I use the Google Reader chrome extension and just get the updates.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> OK, here are some recent Show HN posts that I randomly picked (with more than 2 comments):

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4396195> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4382846> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4381905> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4396195> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4379278>

Skimming through the comments I didn't see much support for the condescending, snarky attitude, many user seem to genuinely help the OP.

You can probably find examples of the other kind (but please _do_ , rather than just saying "I feel like ...") but this at least shows, I think, that the attitude is not very common.

</comment><comment><USER36> Hi Steve,

I have to disagree. Over the past year or so I have launched two things on HN, both of which got incredibly positive feedback and a whole bunch of suggestions for improvements.

One of the launches went so well, I actually made money off the project - <USER3> HN users.

However, I think it probably depends on how you frame the launch, on whether HN is in fact the right community for the product and whether you don't do this when everybody is looking another way or worrying about something else.

For instance, it would have been a terrible idea to launch something when ACTA was going on.

Cheers, ~Swizec

</comment><comment><USER37> What projects are you working on now?

If you're still stuck with a long commute and you are looking for something to build, you could try your hand at a Hacker News replacement. There are certainly enough people here jaded by the toxicity that would make the jump someplace new.

My only piece of advice, if you decide do this, don't post it as a "Show HN". Reach out to smart people privately to beta test it.

<comment><AUTHOR> So I shut down (albeit people can still sign in) a site called favilous which was a bookmarking site. And recently I read a book called Join Me by Danny Wallace and thought it would be cool to see if that translated to the web so I created www.11kclub.com but got castigated by HN for being unoriginal, for being a rubbish idea and for the manner in which it was posted. I accept people will be negative and won't like everything that's published but I feel the old HN crowd used to seek the positive first and then give their negative feedback which was always done in a constructive way. I'm a young guy who is just trying to follow a passion and work for myself - but I find myself increasingly demotivated but hey Maybe that's more down to me than HN

<comment><USER38> Hmm, I just pasted the 11kclub URL into my browser. The front page has no info on what this is about, but you still go ahead and ask for some personal info.

I looked at the favilous front page. It looks pretty decent. Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> 11k is part of a social experiment to see if people will sign up to something they know nothing about just because it is exclusive. And thanks, appreciate it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I've also noticed this negative trend and was thinking of writing about it. I was going to try and quantify it, but never got around to it. I don't post on HN very frequently, but I've read it several times a day for the last 4+ years. Lately it does seem like the tops of comment threads are almost always negative dismissals of the post, rather than additions or constructive contributions. It's made the comments threads much less interesting to read.

Especially in the case of Show HN posts, like you mention, it seems like people put themselves out there and most of the comments shoot them down, often without really exploring or trying to understand what they've spent their time on. Negative feedback is often quite helpful, but knee-jerk negative feedback almost never is.

Obviously it's a tough game, and you've got to have thick skin, but it did used to seem like this was a place to go to learn to succeed, and lately it kind of seems like a place to go to learn that everything sucks.

As for what to do about it, I'm not sure. I'll just keep reading it every day until a new, smaller, more constructive community pops up. I am (and I suspect many others on this site are as well), basically just an education junkie, and as the community becomes less educational, it becomes less attractive than alternatives.

</comment><comment><USER40> Steve,

In my personal opinion, receiving negative responses is good for your startup because learn to deal with them. I do agree, that if that is all you are getting, it is disconcerting. But, maybe there is something wrong with your startup/project.

Think about this, I have a lot of friends, and when I showed them my project, they all said: "That is amazing!" "It is going to change the world" So on, and so forth.

See I love my friends, but that doesn't help me. I am not building a startup to get fame, I am trying to solve a problem. My friends love me and don't want to hurt my feelings, but honestly, my feelings are not part of the startup equation. My friends will not help me improve my vision to solve a problem.

HN has been good at showing a lot of negatives when projects are shown here, but you have to really try to understand what they are saying. Listen to the negatives, they are the best response you are going to get, because they will highlight the flaws on your business model, your project or even your idea.

Instead of looking at those negative responses as a way to get you down, listen to them, and try to get the best out of it. Deep inside a negative is just another way to tell how to succeed.

Hope this helps, Alex.

</comment><comment><USER41> Here's a perfect example from a few days ago. Read the most voted-up comment: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4340014>

<comment><USER22> That is such a perfect example, although it's a good example of replies trying to encourage more positive discussion. I wonder if there's a small group of people who _just don't care_ about social disapproval.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> The bar for entry is so low when it comes to many types of startups today that the grand majority of "Show: HN" posts are completely unimpressive, unoriginal, and just plain boring. That is just the reality. This entire idea that people should be supportive regardless is ridiculous when the amount of people entering the market is enormous. Maybe getting great supportive feedback on mediocre projects isn't what HN is for anymore. IMO that is a good thing. The industry has evolved, so has HN, maybe you should as well.

And I still see great supportive criticisms, and general fluff "great project" on the ACTUALLY GOOD projects.

Just building something isn't impressive anymore.

</comment><comment><USER43> If people agree with this, what are some strategies for countering the trend? People could put more effort into down-voting unconstructive comments. Maybe up-voting should also be unavailable until a karma threshold is met. Maybe up- votes could be made precious by limiting the number per day. Maybe there could be honeypot content that's bad on purpose, or determined to be bad after the fact, and everyone who up-votes it gets their voting privileges revoked. The nuclear option might be to hide scores even from ourselves.

</comment><comment><USER44> So if all the negativity and people complaining is what made you hate HN so much you are leaving it, why do I have to read about it on... HN?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for so perfectly demonstrating my point..

<comment><USER44> That was deliberate, it's called irony. I really don't think using HN to complain about people complaining on HN is a very good move. Sorry, but I can't make anything else of it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> During a job interview I was asked what would be a personal goal of mine in the next five years, and my answer was 'understand completley all the technical postings I read on HN'

Today, there are less and less technical posts, and more fanboyism, rumour, gossip.

I guess Gail Wynand took over YC ---- Let's let Roark back.

</comment><comment><USER46> Steve, we understand that you probably bitter with your recent experiences on HN and wanted to vent out. no problem. We are all humans. But I am a more recent user on HN and find it very interesting. A lot of Show HN posts get positive and negative feedback equally. I personally always add any valuable feedback if I can, even if critical. Do not be discouraged and keep trying. You need to continously inspire yourself. I hope you still wake up everyday waiting to get back on HN.

</comment><comment><USER47> Steve,

Have you considered this is due to the overarching change in the startup society as a whole? I mean, have you HAD an actual conversation with other startup founders/CEOs/early employees lately? :) Either they have nothing to say (because they're so new to the scene and probably have an IQ of around 100), or they are ubercritical (because they've seen SO many microcompanies come and go and they're still around - so everyone wants their advice).

Don't take it personally - their meaning isn't what's changed, it's their wording. Saying "I hate your UI" is essentially the same as saying, "Your UI needs to be cleaner." Look at extremely negative comments as a way to start an excellent conversation:

Them: "I hate your UI." You: "I know! I wish it was cleaner. What do you think about this toolbar?"

If someone is willing to give you honest "I hate" or "I love" feedback, they're ASKING you to want their opinion. And it sounds like you do - so ask them something in return.

And read if you haven't already: [http://www.launch.co/blog/good-to-great-to- excellent-a-roadm...](http://www.launch.co/blog/good-to-great-to-excellent-a- roadmap.html)

Lida

</comment><comment><USER48> TBH, I see VERY few "Show HN" posts. I would like to review a startup and give constructive criticism, but HN has been flooded with op-ed blog posts with sensationalist headlines, or articles that have no relevance whatsoever to HN. Maybe the lack of "Show HN" posts is due to others feeling the way you do. But continue to post. Don't let HN become another Reddit, 4chan, Digg, pick-your- poison.

</comment><comment><USER49> On the other hand when I criticized Chris Granger's "LightTable" I was told that I was a "hater" followed by several statements suggesting that Chris should ignore folks like myself: the "haters".

So I'm not sure, perhaps it is more about who you are than what you say. In any case, I have noted the general fall in quality of articles here, but, there's still some interesting stuff now and again... c'est la vie!

</comment><comment><USER50> I've posted several projects to HN, including both of my guides to programming and photography...and I have been extremely disappointed...with the LACK of harsh comments, and the more-than-deserved number of upvotes. And I mean that only half facetiously, because the critical ability of HN posters, on average, is quite high, so I half-expect people to be nitpicking and ripping on me...and that's fine, since I generally don't take it personally.

Obviously my case isn't apples-to-apples, since the OP may have pitched products that were attempting to be successful in a financial sense, whereas I just like showing personal projects. But my experience has been very supportive. This is not to say that OP is wrong, but just to say that whatever corrective measurements are being decided on, that you shouldn't go too far in fixing what may only be partially or rarely broken

</comment><comment><USER51> It's inevitable.

Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, HN.

On a two year or so schedule new ones come along, old ones become worse. People on here are already using those illiterate, infantile 'memes' to express themselves. The next step is HN gone wild.

The only question is, where do I go next? I'm not going to pretend it's going to have than two years to live though.

<comment><USER52> New network hasn't really cropped up yet. Google+ is still working out the kinks.

/. has gone entirely to shit, but some subreddits are still good (it feels like the average user age has been suppressed down about seven years, though).

The problem is the revenue model. You can't be exclusive when you need to cater to as many users as possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I have also pretty much given up on HackerNews now too. I used to love finding novel and interesting material from any subject.

Now I just see the same posts over and over again:

\- "top 'n' mistakes starts-up make" \- "best 'n' ways to ensure your start up will succeed" \- "'n' qualities that make a good founder/entrepreneur." \- "why my start-up failed: lessons learnt"

The content is rarely ground-breaking and rarely written by somebody of note.

And a more disturbing trend is as soon as somebody write/posts something interesting, there follows weeks/months of similar, non-original rehashed posts/articles.

I think point-scoring is an important factor - as soon as the posting stuff becomes a 'game' that can be 'won', somewhere the reason for it all is de- valued...

Or perhaps it's just too big now... the book "the story of eBay" gives an interesting insight to community growth...

<comment><USER53> oh, and not forgetting of course:

\- "'n' things every programmer should know'" \- "why every programmer should learn [C|LISP|ASSEMBLY]"

And can we just have a new section for the zillions of new "essential" JavaScript frameworks "we must learn" that get built every week.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> I'm new here, so maybe I'm a bit of the "bad new crowd" OP is talking about, but seriously, this guy doesn't seem to have a leg to stand on.

His last (current?) venture 11kclub <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4323459>

1) asks for your PII

2) wants you to do viral MLM on it's behalf

3) has ToS <http://www.11kclub.com/tos.aspx> that explicitly state "you are applying to join a club you know nothing about"

4) and finally, the submitter lied about his affiliation (in the comments)

That said, maybe the behavior he's stating does go on "nowadays" (again, I'm too new to know) , but really from what I see of 11kclub, He as a person does not gain my sympathy.

</comment><comment><USER55> From my readings around here these negative comments are most often attributed at developments that partially aim at creating controversy. If someone starts a Twitter clone country club or runs away from Diaspora to start a meme blog it seems save to assume that this is going to result in some form of dissonance. I personally find the "Ask HN" section extremely civil never really saw someone tearing down a project. Most backslashes seem to appear if a project promises more than it can deliver. The community seems fortunately resistant against too obvious forms of hype.

</comment><comment><USER56> Well, and I hate Hacker News for the whole bunch of startup hipsters that have emerged because of it.

</comment><comment><USER57> Thanks for sharing why you hate HN.

Is it unfortunate that you hate HN? I guess that is a question left to the reader.

What's clear from your comment is you needed to vent. (And you need HN as a way to cope with your commute/job.)

Maybe that's why there is so much harsh criticism on HN. Maybe people are venting. Maybe it has little to do with the technical and commercial merits of any given idea (e.g. a "launch") and more to do with what's going on with the commenter. Maybe they are in a stressful job, or their home life is stressful. And they need to vent.

Now, as for constructive criticism, it's a fair point. To be "constructive", all criticism cannot be solely positive nor negative.

In FDA law, there is a concept called "fair balance". In lay terms, a drug manufacturer has to disclose the bad with good. So, e.g., a TV advertisement will include little innocuous messages about side effects, and that slip of paper with all the tiny print inserted into the packaging will tell you about some very negative and scary things, if you read it. The negatives may not be front and center, but they are there. You, the marketer can say good things, but you have to say some bad things too. Fair balance.

Why not make a rule for HN: If you want to level a harsh criticism, you have to balance it with some praise.

This is a form of transparency. The reader sees both the positive and the negative. They can then choose for themselves what to focus on.

"I like 11kclub for reason A. But I dislike it for reason B."

Fair balance.

</comment><comment><USER58> Steve, I wish you all the best for your project. Could you please tell us more about your latest project?

(A thought: if you launch a public-facing project and announce it here on Hacker News, most of the reactions you get will be like reactions from the general public. If your code base is not exposed to view of hackers, as it would be as a GitHub submission, many of us will only be able to comment on, for example, whether or not we see typos in the copy on your public-facing Web pages, and not on how cool your technical solutions are. That probably generates mostly negative--or at least, consumer-oriented--feedback, rather than hacker feedback, but maybe that is helpful too. I can say as someone who has written for a living in a journalistic organization and also has worked as an editor that every writer needs an editor, because every writer overlooks some of his or her own mistakes, if only because of being busy and tired.)

For what it's worth, I continue to find interesting (and uplifting) things to read here on HN after 1369 days here. But I don't read every thread here. I don't suppose that anyone reads HN exhaustively anymore. Maybe reading a different sample of threads here will help you get more enjoyment and encouragement out of HN again. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER59> I think it doesn't have as much to do with HN as it does with the startup scene itself. A few years ago before the mobile apps, there were fewer people in the startup scene, and those that were there had a more communal sense. Since we are now quite common, there is a lot more competition out there, which probably fuels some of the frustration directed at you.

personally, I wouldn't tear anyone's work down, but I can see why some people would, given how crowded it is now.

</comment><comment><USER60> I rarely read comments here anymore, preferring to stick to reading the article linked to - for the same reason that I never venture into the comment section on the Guardian's once great Comment is Free section. The first batch of comments are always (without fail) in the same vein, and start with a variation of "Yes, but..." or "But what about..." Attack, criticise, find something to disagree with. It doesn't matter if the commenter agreed with 5 things in the article, the early commenters always go looking for that 1 thing they don't agree with.

One of the great myths is that you have to put up with negative people online, that you have to 'toughen up', because, well, just because... You don't. Seth Godin wrote a great piece years ago telling you to fire your customers if they're too troublesome, and I've used this strategy in 2 businesses since. It's liberating. Negativity, insults, poorly mannered and poorly behaved people - you really DO NOT have to put up with any of that. Kick them to the curb and move on, because you really do not need those sorts of people anywhere near you or your new business.

Unfortunately, a lot of 'those people' hang out on HN (and the Guardian).

</comment><comment><USER61> I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I haven't been member that long, I've been lurking much longer, for a while I was afraid to really comment on any story as the attitude of some of the users on this site is to put it bluntly: elitist. It's these kinds of attitudes that causes arguments and the deterioration of a community. I rarely see people posting up new startups or web ideas they've come up with out of fear of ridicule any more.

To be honest I can come across as a cynical jerk, but unlike a lot of the people I see chastising other people in the comments, I'm at times cynical but never intentionally rude. There is a big difference between cynical and just plain rude. Pick any story on the homepage at any given time and people are nitpicking at peoples grammar and arguing something isn't right instead of contributing to the discussion.

Case in point all of this recent discussion about App.net. There appear to be two sides of the fence, one of those sides is hopeful that App.net will be successful and wishing Dalton Caldwell the best and the other side are making assumptions that it's going to fail and that people won't pay to use it, blah blah blah. This is the exact attitude the poster is talking about and I think all of the App.net submissions and comments are a great example of this ridiculous behaviour.

Etiquette aside, don't get me started on the submission quality. It feels like the homepage of HN is part interesting and beneficial submissions and the other half is comprised of articles; "Hating on X programming language", a blog post written by a Svbtle author (mostly Dustin Curtis), a Daring Fireball blog post, TechCrunch news article or submission of a Github repository for something built on-top of a programming language that I don't even know.

</comment><comment><USER62> You have a great point. Ditch the Karma, or make it invisible, and a lot of people will stop commenting just to get votes. And only when you reach so much Karma are you allowed to start seeing the Karma of others. But experiments have been done here before, and a lot has not worked. People REALLY hate change around here ;)

On the other hand, the larger the community gets, the more real it gets. And the truth is simply that the world is snippy. They are opinionated, they don't really care, and reality pretty much sucks. Well, at least that's how I feel by the end of most days. So if you want honest opinions, you kind-of have to take the good with the bad.

Don't get me wrong, what drew me in to HN was the brilliance of the discussions too. The fact that people seemed to really care about each other. It felt like sitting in a room filled with only the smartest people, all of whom had intriguing insights into their areas of expertise. Man it was awesome. Do I want this back? YES.

The only way I can see this happening is if everyone over a certain amount of Karma, and that have been here long enough, get hand-picked and invited into an elite HN community.

</comment><comment><USER63> Steve,

Where's the constructive criticism? It's a community, you can take your ball and go home but if you actually want better feedback start by giving some.

</comment><comment><USER64> I'm really bummed to hear that you feel you got shot down or excessive snark about your projects. I learned something about this in my creative writing classes - it means nothing until you write it down and put it out there. It's easy to imagine how great your writing is until you actually write, and it's hard to say "at least for now, this is my best effort." If you're putting it out there, you're already doing more than most.

In spite of some snark, I still find HN to be a pretty good community. Up and down voting actually reflects this. On most sites, it is, as you pointed out, a way of keeping score (you know how it goes, if you like Mitt Romney, you vote up, if you like Obama, you vote down, regardless of the tone or content of the post). I actually feel that HN is still unusually inclined to actually use the voting to moderate rather than keep a tally relative to pretty much anything else out there.

I'd be really bummed to see this go.

</comment><comment><USER65> I just realized that this is my fault. I'm not new to the internet by any means, but I'm (relatively new) to the geek world. Now that the jokes on xkcd and imgur actually make sense, and I can laugh at n00bs and answer a few questions on Freenode, I feel like I can identify with the hackers. In fact, I just watch the movie _Hackers_ yesterday and it was awesome. I would have had very different sentiments a year ago, or I would have tried to fake what I feel now.

In any case, this sense of elitism I now feel entitled to, has carried over to Hacker News and I feel justified in snarking.

To the OP: Thank you for posting this. In addition to attempting to being a good human being offline, I will double my efforts to being a good human being _on_ line so that you may once again love this community.

</comment><comment><USER66> I think there are two distinct use-cases for posting to HN, and I think the OP's pain can be partially connected to the fact that both types of posts get treated identically.

The first use-case is "Person A discovers Thing X on the Internet and wants to discuss it critically with the people on HN."

The second use-case is "Person B wants to share Thing Y that they made, in hopes that the people on HN will give positive feedback."

As a reader, you can choose to treat the two types of posts differently, but without a conscious effort, I think the default behavior is to use a consistent approach to all posts on the site. The result is that either real industry news doesn't get reviewed very critically, or personal projects get reviewed more critically than the poster would have hoped.

</comment><comment><USER67> I don't know, I looked at your past submission for makeusdate, and it appears that you got tons of useful feedback and encouragement. Very little of the posts I saw there were negative at all. Some were blunt, but still encouraging and admonishing you not to give up.

</comment><comment><USER68> What a stupid post. Man, are you dumb.

Just kidding. Yeah, I see what you are saying, but I guess my view is that the nature of a community is that you can't fully control it. I see some people here coming up with different ideas about how to protect HN and make it a more friendly place, but the reality is that there is no full proof way to maintain the culture of an open community. The interesting thing is that while it is very easy for a community with a positive culture to start to slowly degrade to negative over time, it is extremely difficult to bring a negative culture back to positive. Does that mean HN is doomed? Not necessarily, but I guess I don't expect things to all of a sudden change for the better overnight.

</comment><comment><USER69> _They'd want you to succeed and they'd try and help you succeed with feedback that would ultimately help you._

You're seeing what you want to see. If your idea is truly noteworthy, you will get lots of usable feedback on this site, despite all the negative (but still relevant) criticism. Two recent examples are Ouya and App.net; these ideas received tidal waves of negativity, but they were _interesting_ ideas, and the ensuing threads were filled with useful and valid criticism (as well as supportive comments from backers). If your idea is only receiving negative comments, it's probably because it isn't compelling enough to merit the attention of thoughtful critics.

</comment><comment><USER70> I'll add my tuppence and agree that I've noticed quite a few more "he's an idiot" comments recently. Coincidentally, I've tried to assess whether this is partly due to frustration with the quality of the original post. In some cases, I think it may be a reaction to some fairly out there opinions; in other words a kind of de facto criticism of genre rather can content.

The hammer of Thor seems to be wielded a little more. There's a lot more players now, and defenders of the castle will mow down the barbarians, to use a metaphor.

It's natural selection at work, but as any club owner can tell you, don't let the doormen / bouncers get too self important.

</comment><comment><USER71> One of the reasons for the negative comments might be the sheer number of applications being developed and showcased.

Hence, many of the projects tend to bring in some deja-vu and the commenters are drawn to the lack of features more than usual.

</comment><comment><USER72> FWIW, I've been feeling like the comments on HN have been more negative and combative than usual over the last month or so, too. (I've been a HN user for about 5 years, too). I've not been quite sure why - there just suddenly seems to have been a bit of a tidal wave of snark.

It may be seasonal, or something similar, and I'll admit to having anecdotal evidence only, but I have had a similar impression to the OP, albeit not quite as strongly.

I wonder if some of it is defensiveness from users scared HN will turn into Reddit? Certainly, I've seen a lot of "downvote this post, it's not something that should be on HN" comments lately.

</comment><comment><USER73> Wow, 277 comments in here and just 10 in a front page article for a new project: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4398344>

This is a good post but it also feels like you're just insulting the whole community rather than giving constructive criticism. Want some constructive criticism? Foster the community you want by being the kind of member you want to see (Gandhi said it better).

Also, your post seems like flame bait but it inspired some really interesting discussion about forum moderation. So maybe the community isn't as bad as you say.

</comment><comment><USER74> Too bad, people like nickb are no longer around, it just takes a few of these types to make a world of difference. Oddly, it sounds as if you're describing reddit 5 years ago when I launched a startup. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER75> Thanks for voicing my thoughts. I agree completely. I never thought I would say this, but here goes: With the careful selection of subreddits i have at Reddit these days, my experience there is more pleasant than Hacker News. There are just so many snide remarks and so much hate in here.

It's the same problem I had with Reddit until I started being very selective with which subreddits I subscribed to. Like PG said, it is a growth problem. But I don't think a similar turnaround operation will be possible here. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

</comment><comment><USER76> There's a lot of negative, boring people hiding behind their keyboards. Don't let them drain your enthusiasm. If they're not being constructive, their opinion isn't worth noting in the slightest. Chin up.

</comment><comment><USER77> HNers are good people - we just need reminders regularly to do our duty to the community.

So, it seems that you are the cure to your own ailment:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4396195>

I took ten of my valuable minutes to review the next thing on Ask HN - <USER4> hopefully constructively.

I guess it is just a problem of being reminded regularly that this is a community that needs contributing to as well as reading (my default). Perhaps more of us need to actually release something ! (maybe that could be a means to get a karma multiplier)

<comment> think-large I think you have a great point. This is a reminder that we do need to be a more proactive community as a whole.

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> > Hacker News now is about correcting grammar

I vehemently agree with this. Aside from a few parent comments on each thread, the comment threads are sure to have somebody being overly finicky about the minutia of another comment. Diction is important, yes, but an important tool to any conversation is understanding when NOT to correct somebody, or make them clarify their obvious statement. It's kind of like HN's much crueler version of a Reddit pun thread, with the notable exception that, as soon as I see one, I will immediately collapse the former.

</comment><comment><USER79> I thought I'd just say I completely agree with you, though I've only been a member for about 2 years and a reader for about 3, just in that small time I've noticed a change, and I think its sad, it really is a bummer. I've noticed many people posting their start-ups and either 1) not getting any comments (what's with that?) or 2) the things you mention just hate, where's the constructive critisism this site was so great for? I can only hope my upvoting you that we can make a change here in the opposite direction.

</comment><comment><USER80> I think people are making some interesting proposals. I have a controversial view: maybe things aren't that bad? I usually see nasty comments downvoted. We want civility but I don't think anyone wants Stackoverflow level sterility.

Also I think the community still praises and gives great self-esteem boosting comments. I can't tell you how many postings of "look at me project" that seem like 3 hour mashups for which I don't undestand the point at all, but the comments will have snark at all. Of course, this is just my anecdote.

</comment><comment><USER81> If you are not applying for the Y-combinator or are an alumni, you will tend to have a degraded experience to those that are in the "IN" group. Sorry to see that this affects you, but I am in the same boat. I've learned to just use this site as a kind of tech bookmaking site curated by popular trends. Sometimes there are interesting or insightful comments, but the overwhelming number of comments revolve around social politics or corporate espionage like discouraging competitors in the emerging markets.

</comment><comment><USER82> I think it's part of a larger trend in startups. When there is no startup boom, people who do startups do them b/c they love building things. When there is a boom, ambitious people do startups b/c it is part of their calculation of how to achieve power and wealth, the competition for which is a zero sum game.

The true visionaries who build amazing products and companies are not the kind of people who, in the midst of a boom, decide to do a startup instead of applying to a prestigious MBA program.

YC's new approach of choosing founders who have no idea is part of the problem. The people who can get funding just b/c of their pedigree (how they look on paper) is exactly the selection approach used by top MBA programs and investment banks. For these people, life is a reputation game which they are good at winning.

It's no surprise that YC went in this direction, b/c it clearly helps get companies funded. The founder simply becomes a risk asset, just like a racehorse, who clearly has a certain level of sophistication and metal ability, and who will follow the guidance of the YC team. This works great for attracting capital b/c the person with great paper credentials can be puffed up and made to act the role of visionary by pantomiming the style of successful entrepreneurs.

This is all in pursuit of capital, since to a large extent companies that are well capitalized and not staffed by idiots can generate a nice ROI, and the cynical investor view is that if you have n companies in a space where you expect growth, then some percentage will fail, some percentage will succeed, etc.

Ironically, though, it's never required less capital to do a tech startup, and much of the capital is being burned up on young people who put off their MBA and want to live in a major city for a few years and gamble on the boom.

This is just startups becoming mainstream, and attracting the same kind of people that have always gravitated toward iBanking and other MBA oriented fields. Sooner or later some of the startup funding will dry up due to routine, cyclical forces, and the startup scene will once again consist mostly of hackers and builders.

So I view it as both a good and a bad thing. The investor class is slowly learning who makes a good bet, aided by tons of cheap capital thanks to quantitative easing and stimulus. But for now nobody is being too picky and in the midst of tremendous uncertainty people who look good on paper are a hot commodity.

Just keep building and learning and ideally find a great team of people who love your product and what you are trying to accomplish, and you will eventually triumph.

<comment><USER83> Man, well done. I am too exhausted by my cynicism about the startup world to make such posts now. But it is very important to remember that in the current environment cynicism equals knowledge. Naivete and idealism are mostly put-on. Investors need this greed-based faux idealism to attract young talented people. I think that people bemoaning the declining "quality" of members of the HN community would be even more perturbed if HN lost any of it's potency as a platform for hyping portfolio companies owned by the investing class.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> This is the inherent problem with free, open Internet. I would not change it one bit. Unfortunately, Hacker News is only one of many places like this. It's the same reason I left Stack Exchange long ago.

However, I do feel your pain. I think it is disgusting that people have plenty of time to destroy your hard work, but have not time at all to offer the tiniest bit of encouragement. I've noticed it happening more and more often as well. I'm just not sure why people cannot simply be polite to each other.

</comment><comment><USER85> I've only been here for a couple of years and while I recognize that online communities always basically go downhill as more people are added, I suspect there is another issue at play: startup fatigue.

Everyone and his mother's brother is launching a "like X but with Y" startup now. Unless yours is something really special right out of the gate, it just gets lost in the noise and is easy for the non-trolls to ignore, resulting in a situation where the only feedback is not helpful.

</comment><comment> think-large Steve,

I'd hate to see you leave the community after such a thoughtful post.

I think some of the best ideas here support your plan and that this is a call to action. We as a community need to support positive comments and refrain from name calling. Acting like an adult isn't about growing a thicker skin, but embracing the lessons we learn as children.

There is a balance between condescension and constructive criticism. Lets strive for the latter.

</comment><comment><USER86> I don't like Hacker News so much now because the hacker part seems to be slipping away and this place is becoming more of reddit news type :(

</comment><comment><USER87> In fact, for an experiment I created an account with which I posted a few negative responses (so destructive criticism), which got upvoted.

</comment><comment><USER88> Wow, it almost seems HN is going the Reddit way. But it's fine to do that on Reddit coz it's meant for the purpose. HN is not.

</comment><comment><USER89> I worry about that too. I tried to look back at your older posts as I've been around a while myself. What was your old username?

</comment><comment><USER90> For some reason, I personally feel bad about this. Being a newer member, I feel like I'm somehow contributing to Steve's hatred of hacker news. I am entrepreneurial and love seeing new projects being released, but I didn't know about HN until I moved to San Francisco a year ago.

Hopefully I help make this place better instead of worse, Sorry Steve

</comment><comment><USER91> On my first submission to this site, I acted like an asshole in the comments section to reciprocate the attitude of the comments I got. My opinionated tone earned me more points, when I hate doing that kind of thing to begin with.

This is a cultural issue. I should not be rewarded for being a dick, nor should anyone else. Period.

</comment><comment><USER92> Don't worry, you don't need to be married to HN. There will be something else replacing it, probably giving you exactly the kind of community you look for (because, simply, you are not the only one).

I hopped from slashdot to digg, from digg to reddit, and from reddit to HN. It's just another link in the chain.

</comment><comment><USER93> He complains that people don't offer constructive criticism. He gives the example that people no longer say 'like this and that, try this instead' and now say 'hate hate hate'

and yet

the title of his criticism is he 'hates' hacker news.

My feedback: I like the sentiment, but try not to do the same thing your criticising in your op-ed post.

</comment><comment><USER94> Whenever I read posts like this I wonder if I happen to be really lucky at reading comments to posts that are never negative in nature. I've never (or so seldom they don't stick out) seen any of these issues on HN - my experience is almost universally positive. I think HN is just fine.

</comment><comment><USER95> Ok. How about this...

I promise to do my best to make my comments, submissions and votes more constructive and relevant.

As simple as that.

</comment><comment><USER96> I am quite new here, but one thing that I have looked in the last months or so is that more and more new submitted links are mainly personal rants.

Not trying to attack sw007's post specifically, but I am talking about blog posts linked from here that seem to be added only to spike controversy.

</comment><comment><USER97> Hey, I can't say that I feel your pain. I can't seem to get my projects on the front page even though some negative feedback would be welcomed and even helpful.

I think done amount of negativity is something that just happens on all tech forums. Programmers are an opinionated lot.

<comment><USER98> negativity is why you have awesome projects like linux, ffmpeg etc. things don't thrive because you tell them how great they are. they strive because a) someone tells them what the crap is. and b) the person is strong enough to tell himself, ok you'll see i'll build something so awesome even you will have to accept it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER99> This is probably an outcome of the comment engine on this site, it could use some real work. If it worked a little more like Reddit, with upvotes and downvotes, then good, useful comments would bubble to the surface and negative useless comments would get hidden.

<comment><USER100> I think HackerNews exists largely because Paul Graham saw Reddit NOT working for what he wanted--it was (and is) extremely popular, but was shifting toward a snarky, depth-avoidant population. I'm guilty there--I upvote dozens of pics in a few minutes, while skimming past the insightful articles that take too long to read and evaluate.

It's worth noting, though, that HN does have up and down votes for comments, but only users with moderately high karma can downvote.

This might not work well given relatively quick growth. A small number of people consistently downvoting bad comments may be outvoted by a huge mass of new users who from time to time upvote. Maybe everyone should be able to upvote AND downvote, but experienced users get double weight.

Personally, I think we need something different than minor adjustments to the voting weights/allocations. Slashdot-style moderation? Revamped guidelines? Hard to say what will work and what won't.

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> Personally, I really wished pg would bring back the vote count next to comments. It used to be a very good indicator of what kind of comments were encouraged by the community. I feel HN has been getting worse since although it was intended to make things better.

</comment><comment><USER102> Mostly I try to stay unbiased, but like many others I have been guilty of the behavior you describe at times. It think that whenever you post a comment, there should be a bold disclaimer above to remind people to be nice, constructive criticism only, etc.

</comment><comment><USER103> Hey Steve, don't let the detractors slow you down. As Steve Jobs aptly responded, "What have you done that is so great?"

Constructive feedback is the best way to test out hypotheses and ideas. It's unfortunate you have to weed out the noise to get to the meat.

Cheers and continue on.

</comment><comment><USER104> I have been a huge HN fan for many years and read daily but the unnecessarily hostile atmosphere in the comments often detracts from the otherwise great content.

I guess it's a problem that gets more difficult to solve with scale but there must surely be a solution.

</comment><comment><USER105> Really, I prefer the discourse over the circle-jerking. It's sort of why I like HackerNews because people don't simply just all agree with each other and pat each other's back. If I want that kind of stuff, I'll just head on over to Reddit.

</comment><comment><USER106> It's cause a bunch of redditors have moved in, I hate reddit, it's pointless. ;)

</comment><comment><USER107> HN starts with the elites. Elites make HN popular. Others join HN to be elite by proximity (or invested in). Elites leave.

This is the exact nature of an internet community that is successful. Thank god we (kind of) still have IRC.

</comment><comment><USER108> The bigger a news site gets, the more it starts to resemble Orwell's Two Minutes of Hate. The irony today is that it's not some overbearing totalitarian power that's doing it, it's the users themselves.

</comment><comment><USER109> I've seen the same thing happen everywhere from Usenet to Slashdot to Reddit. It's just how things go online, especially when people are allowed to be anonymous or just don't care about looking bad.

</comment><comment><USER110> Tip: On Favilous lighten up the black just a little bit. It's unnaturally dark and is constantly drawing my attention thus preventing me from focusing on the text on the page.

</comment><comment><USER111> Harsh criticism is often the most useful criticism.

</comment><comment><USER112> You can do what I do: don't read the comments. Pretty simple solution and you still get to find some great articles to read.

</comment><comment><USER113> A good many of the linked articles are full of snark and vitriol, setting a poor example for the commentariat to follow.

</comment><comment><USER114> With billions in play in the Social Network universe, someone needs to write an opus on Mitigating Eternal September.

</comment><comment><USER115> HN usefull <http://www.phongkhamdakhoaathena.com/>

</comment><comment><USER116> Nice post Steve. Assuming anyone even gets to read this 420 posts later... [Proposed solution at the end] For years I got my daily fix of HN too. PG was a legend of the Valley for me and YC an admirable exclusive club of amazing success stories. Many we work with and many friends have had tremendous success. (Disclosure: we never applied to YC nor tried simply because we had two seasoned founders with many successes under our belts and felt respectfully it wasn't our cup of tea, but we admired and loved HN and the people at YC)

As an entrepreneur for 15+ years, I really admired the community support and its relationship to startups and hackers. Something all founders and tech leaders need. From outside of Silicon Valley it was very inspiring to watch.

When we started <http://geekli.st> about 1 1/2 years ago we broke into the Silicon Valley scene and hustled like nobody's business to get known, get ahead, raise funds and do all those things all entrepreneurs must do to reach their goals. One of the tools we looked towards was HN. We got some initial love in there, but once they invested (YC) in a company that was copying our every step the HN love shut down. Articles we posted/very relevant news even picked up by Huffington post, TNW and other media outlets, was repeatedly removed and shut out. At least with no transparency to voting or the 'karma factor' we had no way to know why. Along with that came the barrage of complaints from many influential developers and tech leaders we knew about the voting system, the mystical 'Karma' system and basically the fact that something once so simple and pure, full of positivity and support, became a place to lambaste, harass, condescend, denigrate and shut down intelligible and news-worthy items, startups and human beings. But like Friendster, MySpace and the ever famous forums and bulletin boards of past... things evolve from what once was innovative and positive, causing new generations of innovators to learn from the mistakes of their elders and build something better. more relevant. more useable. more friendly and more open... Thank you Paul for Hacker News and everything you and YC have always done for startups. You'll always be loved and respected by me... but for the disenchanted tech and startup link absorbers like me and so many of our close (and not so close) friends there is something new.

Welcome to Geeklist Links. Tech news, startup releases and developer links and resources, organized into your own categories, shared in tagged communities, saved, ^5'd, upvoting and down voting, with complete transparency. <http://geekli.st/#link> \- built by developers for developers and the tech world. - Enjoy. Reuben Katz - these views I own.

</comment><comment><USER117> i wonder if karma should be used in a more constructive way, say to make sure people earn the right to comment on the popular stories..

I guess this assumes the community as a whole still contains more positive rather than negative people, But i like to think it does still

</comment><comment><USER118> >I joined Hacker News around 5 years ago. Your profile says account created 555 days ago.

</comment><comment><USER119> "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded" -Yogi Berra

</comment><comment><USER120> In other words it's become more left wing.

</comment><comment><USER121> Dear Steve:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4398353>

Hello.

I read your post today.

Thank you for being so honest. I agree, HN can be a lot less supportive and honest these days. When you share something you've created, the feedback can be brutal. Things have changed, you're right about that. The causes have been well-documented, whether in Paul Graham's comment, Giles Bowkett's rant, or Joel Spolsky's observations on building online communities with software.

I can't tell Hacker News what to do about its growth. I'm not an expert by any means. And I can't really heal the hurt you must feel when you pour your heart and soul into creating something only to have people you care about say "meh," or worse. I've been there, and although I put a brave face on it, I hurt when people criticize things I take personally.

It's all very well and good to say, "Don't take it personally." I don't take it personally when a client doesn't like a feature I suggest for them. It's a business, I'm trying things for them, it isn't personal. But when I write essays or stories or share a little library of code, I am doing something very personal, and truth be told I crave some positive feedback, some signal that people are glad I tried even if it isn't for them.

What I wouldn't give for a few more "Hey, great effort, it would have been even better if you'd considered adding Foo" comments and a lot fewer "What good is it without Foo?" questions.

So here I am sharing something about me, and this is very personal. I hope I am resonating with you, because if it helps you in any way, I can live with 1,000,000 downvotes from grumpy people. And for me, that is one of the keys to being happy in a public forum. Seize on any bit of progress, no matter how small. If you like this letter, I can focus on that, I made you nod, or smile, or maybe feel a little better for a little while. That isn't a billion dollars from a startup, but it is damn satisfying to find out that someone, somewhere is a little bit happier for a time, and to think you helped.

And maybe you can find that from the things you are trying. Is there one person out there who is a little happier, who learned a little something, who is grateful for your work? That matters, and it matters more than ten or a hundred or a thousand nay-sayers. I can tell you flat out, I am grateful you wrote your message to Hacker News. It struck something in me. It is striking something in other people. It is making people think. It is making the world a teeny bit better. That's something positive you did, some important measure of your worth. Thank you.

Maybe Hacker News will find a way back to where it came from. I don't know. But I can tell you, I decided a while back that I want to try to stick around even if it doesn't. I don't want to "bail" to the next little place the way I bailed from Reddit to HN. Time changes, and we must change with it. Unless it becomes actively poisonous, I want to try to grow and learn to be happy in spite of how it is not the way it was. There are still many wonderful things happening there, many wonderful people posting there, many excellent posts appearing there.

The trick for me at least is to learn how to filter out the crud without being upset. It is not easy, I think I have had trouble with negative feedback my whole life. But if there is one positive idea in a thread, isn't it worth sorting through and ignoring the dreck? And this is not a passive experiment, We can contribute the good ideas, we can lead by example. I'm trying to be less argumentative. I'm trying to be more thoughtful. There's some value in that for myself. You may already be where I'm trying to go, I don't know. But it seems worth trying. It seems worth sticking around and making a positive contribution. Who knows, you might make one person somewhere nod their head and think and be happy for a moment in time.

That's a good thing, and I hope that whatever you do and wherever you go, you keep making things and saying things and trying to make the world a better place.

Sincerely,

Reginald Braithwaite.

</comment><comment><USER122> Cancer is cancer.

</comment><comment><USER123> I can totally relate (though I've had far less balls than you so far). I mostly relate to the the commute but I did post a project about a year ago and though I did see sniping like you speak of the responses i got were actually pretty helpful but I do know what you mean as I've seen it like we all have on other posts.

The things I admire about you posting this most are:

1\. You had the balls to not only criticize this place but actually criticize it despite the fact I'm sure you know a ton of people will say your criticism is only your experience or a common newbie mistake (I've seen that said to newbies and veterans alike) or some other sort of response full of denial and meant to shut you up.

2\. You criticized despite, I'm sure, knowing many will think you had your feelings hurt due to the response on your projects and are now coming back to whine

For the record, I don't think either of those things are true of you. I totally hear you. I'd also add that this has become a place where group think is acceptable and encourage. HN is now a hive mind. On HN, if you believe... that file sharing sites really are just a place used mostly to download copyrighted media and that's wrong then you are an enemy of freedom around here. If you believe that people who are pirating (as in downloading via channel unauthorized by creator without paying) is wrong and hurts the developer you're an enemy of freedom, free software, and HN. If you use PHP you're not a real developer and you should be mocked. If you like anything about PHP you are dumb and should be mocked. Then we have the classic flame wars that anyone who knows HN would expect to never see here but they do. Often. Like Jobs v. Stallman, Windows v. Mac, Vi v. Emacs, and so on. Really?

And everyone is the smartest person here. Everyone. You could cure AIDS and some guy will come along and talk about how it should've been done faster by doing XYZ. The titles on submissions from many regulars have also gone downhill. We used to get things like "Why technique X helps Y in use case Z". Now we get a lot of arrogant "If you don't do X the way I describe in this post then you don't deserve to live". Okay, it's actually more like "If you do X then you're doing it wrong" or some such.

I wonder why. Maybe we've grown to the point where the sense of community is a little strained, people want to feel smart like all the other smart people, and so now colleagues have become competitors. When that happens what you get is jealousy and instead of helpful suggestions you get sniping because the person is thinking "shit, I have nothing a,axing to contribute so how do I save face and still look smart?". The answer is by bringing everyone else down.

Maybe we've gone from a community of mostly doers to a community of a minority of doers and a majority of spectators. It's just like sports in that case. When you're out in a social setting and a game is on everyone knows better than the coach and players how to play the game. It even becomes acceptable because by nature spectators and players both have roles to play. The players are the "anointed ones", the "professionals", who do things mere mortals cannot (or maybe even should not?) and their job is to play for the benefit (maybe a bad choice of words but along the lines of "benefit") of the spectators. The spectators then, since they have to leave the playing to the professionals, are left to either be delighted when things are going good or criticize when things go bad. The more the spectator longs to be a player but doesn't (either through a false belief that they can't or shouldn't because they weren't "chosen", or because they just don't have the balls to), the harsher their criticism becomes and the more vocal they become.

Maybe that's what has happened around here. I know I for one have been quite intimidated and jealous of others. I often feel what I can contribute cannot match what others are building so I keep it to myself. And when I see a few harsh critiques of something it becomes easy for me to pile on. I'm not above it but I am self aware enough to spot it in myself.

I speak as ive been here a while because I have (relatively speaking of course). I had a 400-something day old account hell banned a couple months ago because of what's happened to HN. I had the wrong opinion and was punished. Even before I created an account I lurked for a year and back then HN was still very intimidating but also far more welcoming and constructive. I really think anyone who is going to trot out the old "oh, this opinion comes around every now and then" or the "that's a common fallacy" argument is in denial. I'd like to see HN redeem itself or go out on top like Jordan (the first time he retired).

One last thing: for what it's worth, yeah HN has gotten a little sucky, but it's still awesome and very redeemable.

</comment><comment><USER124> Wow, it's a good thing you're not a writer...

Criticism is one of the best ways to learn to be better at what you do. "Hate this, hate that" may be negative but it is _useful_ feedback from actual/potential users of your site/service/app/whatever.

HN is a far better site with useful comments than it is a site with solely positive comments.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ironically I am a writer - I've written a sitcom and had it made and have had my fair share of 'this is awful' comments - I get people won't like my stuff, I don't have a problem with that. I am making the point that the old HN crowd would give constructive feedback rather than just rip in to you...

<comment><USER125> I think the line between "ripping in" to someone and "constructive" criticism is a fine line, probably something to do with tone. Personally, I don't view (let alone comment) on product launches, I'm more of a code kind of guy, but from my position I see excellent discussion. I suspect that the negativity on product launches is because everyone can contribute - there's no skill barrier.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER126> Why is there this myth that there is a "community" or "family" of entrepreneurs?

Startup founders are actually _competitors_ \- for funding, for sales, for attention etc etc etc

The scale that should be _expected_ between entrepreneurs goes from "Open Hostility" on one end to "Cold War" on the other.

You should _expect_ any "positivity" you get to be fake, stupid or both. If you receive better, you should take it as a _bonus_.

It's the same way Corporate HR is not the employee's friend.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urGVKx3H_Rk>

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ0BQUufUpE&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ0BQUufUpE&feature=related)

</comment><comment><USER127> How long have you been using the Internet? sniping and negativity is the norm and I just ignore it. You should too.

If your app truly is good, your users/customers will be the only thing that matters.

<comment><USER128> He's saying that sniping and negativity wasn't the norm for HN, but it's become that way.

<comment><USER129> That's either rose-tinted glasses or selective recall, or both.

<comment><USER130> Its neither, feedback supplied to the "Show HN" type posts would generally be positive, or at least constructive and polite. Even if there was no feedback to offer, people would still leave a congratulatory comment about launching.

4-5 years ago it felt like the only people who understood what you went through to launch were people on this site, everyone else including family and fellow co-workers at big corp were negative about the idea of leaving a "safe job" to pursue a dream.

But now with everyone having an idea about the next big app, and blockbuster movies coming out about the geeky kid who did follow his dream, everyone else is starting to "get" us, they can relate. So the feedback you get from outside of HN has become positive, and so the feedback from HN has become more of a "reality check".

I don't see why it just can't be polite but constructive though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER131> If you want hand holding and kudos? Then any public forum on the internet is the wrong place to come (go to your mommy for things like that - not the cruel world in which we live). Stop whining. Either use the criticism of your projects to improve them, moving you toward success or GTFO.

The internet is not a PC or hand-holding place. Most people are not really PC on the inside. They ace PC outwardly face to face because they fear physical confrontation or are afraid of social repercussions (in the real world)

Buck up

</comment><comment><USER132> Hate this, it's pointless. :p

<comment><USER132> Brilliant. Everything about this just emphasises his point :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER133> > points scoring

Why else have moderation points if not for scoring? :p</comment>


Why Functional Programming Matters [pdf] - b-man http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.63.7911&rep=rep1&type=pdf

<comment><AUTHOR> See also: [http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/03/why-why-functional- progr...](http://weblog.raganwald.com/2007/03/why-why-functional-programming- matters.html)

If submitting things from CiteSeer became HN's version of submitting Wikipedia pages, that would be a major step up, IMHO.

<comment><USER2> I am bound to agree. On the other hand, Wikipedia often provides good starting points for further research. Especially since they insist on sources. (Though their preference for dead trees doesn't help.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Note: HN's scribd integration doesn't work for redirects to PDFs. Might want to fix that?</comment>


A UW student found success, and answers about her father's addiction - <AUTHOR> https://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/a-uw-student-found-success-and-discovered-answers-about-her-fathers-addiction/ <comment><USER2> This article has the typical dichotomy of a piece discussing the medical aspect of addiction: after waxing on for paragraphs about the medical nature of addiction, and how the rats she studies are helpless to avoid relapse, it then ends on a moral note, stating that "the choice [to maintain sobriety] is his".

Well, if addiction is in fact a medical problem, then the choice is _not_ entirely his, is it?

For people like the father, I'd strongly recommend getting on and staying on methadone. It's not easy, but it's a real of a lot better than going to prison and destroying one's family.

That may be the one choice he _does_ have.

<comment><USER3> There's a reason that addiction is called "the only disease you get yelled at for having."

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Seattle Times loads a blank page without Javascript. Here's a helpful mirror:

[http://archive.is/4q80f](http://archive.is/4q80f)

</comment><comment><USER5> I always thought of "UW" as the university of waterloo

<comment><USER6> Given that the article is in a Seattle newspaper, I'm guessing a large portion of it's readers understood the abbreviation. But yes, in general abbreviations for colleges tend to overlap quite a bit due to common initials.

<comment><USER7> In 2018, given the world audience news sites have, there should be clear cut definitions of acronyms and abbreviations used in posts/articles.

<comment><USER6> In an article, I agree, but headlines are space-constrained, so I don't see it as an issue that they use a slightly ambiguous abbreviation</comment></comment></comment></comment>