All I need is a programmer - <AUTHOR> http://codeclimber.blogspot.com/2008/04/all-i-need-is-programmer.html

<comment><USER3> This same story seems to get rehashed weekly here. Without insight into what the business is, you can't really judge how important a programmer is. For some, it's paramount. For others, it's not as important.

Interestingly enough, a lot of people get stuck in some sort of weird trap: Their idea is worth so much to them that they won't give up equity yet their idea is worth so little that they won't invest in it.

<comment><USER4> That's a very interesting paradoxical situation you have pointed out - <USER2> weird trap, I mean.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and offers Y where Y << X. And so on.

Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming right out and _saying_ that they expected the work _for free_ , so forget it... they're not being very polite or very smart. A better response would be "Gosh, I hadn't realized it was more than an hour or two of work, and my budget is only $75. Thanks for setting me straight -- I'll have to rethink this. Can you recommend any $10-an-hour grade school students?" And then you put on your Helpless Newb Face and hope that your programmer friend takes pity on you and offers to work at half wages, or offers you some free advice on how to set up a cheap Wordpress site, or something.

As sure as the sun shines, people -- especially your "friends" -- are never going to offer what you're actually worth. (For one thing, they have little way of knowing. Given that most software engineers can barely estimate how long their projects will take or how much the result is worth, how can you expect inexperienced folks to do it?) You just have to do what this guy did: Ask for what you think you're worth, and be gracious but firm if they say something stupid or insulting in return.

<comment><USER6> If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth? Why not ask for W where X << W?

<comment><USER5> Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think you will get.

Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10.

Following rule zero can be very hard. It takes a lot of social skill to deflect your opponent's request for an opening bid. I'm not sure rule zero even applies in a lot of situations -- for example, as a consultant I often just use rule one, because your customers will often be scared away if you act like the canonical Oracle salesperson and attempt to determine the approximate size of their bank account before you even name your rate. But you can give them a rate and then negotiate the project scope or schedule. ;)

I'm cribbing all of this from Dawson's _Secrets of Power Negotiating_ , BTW. I find that book kind of cheesy -- perhaps because, like many techies, I'm a terrible negotiator by nature -- but it's a fun way to get inside the mind of a sales guy. I wish I'd read it before I went to China. Chinese shopkeepers saw me coming a mile away. I console myself with the knowledge that the profits from my few small purchases are probably putting some very nice Chinese kids through college now... Plus, my Chinese friend was _highly_ entertained by the sight of my negotiating, and that's worth something.

<comment><USER7> My wife developed a technique in ChinaTown NYC that rarely failed.

She would decide what she wanted to pay (less than what was being asked, obviously), put down the money in front of the salesperson while picking up the item and wait for a response.

The salesperson was almost never willing to let her pick her money back up again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I work for a big company where they believe in the cog-in-a-machine idea so much they actually implemented a process they coined 'the factory process' with the emphasis on being able to swap in team of developers at the drop of a hat.

Noone had read the mythical man month, or Spolsky's 'Hitting the highlights' (or named something similar to that).

I can testify first hand that treating software engineer like cogs is a road to slippage, bugs and all the good engineers leaving!

</comment><comment><USER9> The lack of cash for the gig isn't really the problem here. I think the problem is that the person asking for work is poor at business.

If he is expecting this guy to work for free, he should make him feel super important, ask for advice and not really ask him to do the work.

Assuming that someone else has nothing else going on and will spend their evenings/weekends on your project for free, just points out that he doesn't have a clue about how people work.

My advice to anyone looking to hire a programmer for free, try a subtle form of flattery and see if you can get a good deal. Alternatively, learn programming.

</comment><comment><USER10> "The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so productive that a single person can get things done without having to work together with anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop the social skills needed to work effectively as a member of a team."

That's IT! I just decided to quit Lisp and program in C from now on. And all this time I wondered why I have no social skills... But now everything will be fine!!!

<comment><USER11> You're quoting a statement by Ron Garret which I find rather thought provoking and not at all ridiculous. But what puzzles me is, why are you quoting it here?

<comment><USER10> It was just a joke in good earth. But now I see how you read it.

I'll try to double-check my post for ambiguïties next time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Programming is not the only profession where this takes place

<comment><USER13> In particular in the web industry, there's a lot of programmers who have "done all the hard stuff" and now just need a designer to "make it look pretty,"despite the fact that good design with a focus on usability is likely to change the structure and flow of the application.

I mention it, because I've caught myself thinking this way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is typical of the sort of person who believes that the value of something is entirely the idea, rather than in the implementation of the idea. Unfortunately, that mindset never actually accomplishes anything.

Ideas aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Unless it's nice paper.

<comment><USER15> New Math anyone?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I have a programmer who due to visa issues is stuck in one state. We have worked together on a startup remotely 4 over a yr now. His full time gig sent him over to work only in one state. Now we are backed we want him to join us where our backers and I am, but immigration is backed up where it will take a year 2 approve his move. We are now looking for LAMP developers (2 yr experience) in and around the Philly area.

I wouldnt say all we need is a programmer, rather another team member who can join us locally, while he continues working remotely! Interested drop me mail at paul9290 <at> yahoo.com. It's a paid position with equity!

</comment><comment> daniel-cussen Has anyone seen a post saying "All I need is a business guy?"

<comment><USER17> Maybe not a post, but I know several entrepreneurs who say--on a regular basis--"All I need is a sales guy," "All I need is a marketing guy," and/or "All I need is a bizdev guy."

In each case, they believe that the hard part of their business is the part they are doing/have done, and teh sales/marketing/bizdev is a slam dunk.

<comment><USER18> We all misjudge that which we don't understand. And if we did understand, we could do it ourselves.

<comment><USER19> Good point, too bad nested comments don't float the original comment up higher.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> See another similar thread here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105>

</comment><comment><USER21> In my opinion the software is the business. Without that, its just an idea on paper. And the marketable value of an idea is zero.

</comment><comment><USER22> Got the same thing on Sunday. Usually I find the easiest thing to say, in cases where I'm pretty certain there's not going to be common ground, to recommend a third party who they're not friends with and won't assume that it'll be a favor.

</comment><comment><USER23> you can either spend that energy and reply to the person try explaining why you worth X you are requesting (assumuning they are not naive and willing to understand) or write a blog post a of type "all I need is a XYZ"

</comment><comment><USER24> If they know exactly what they want, the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly. It doesn't really matter.

<comment><USER25> "If they know exactly what they want"

That sure would be nice. Too bad it almost never happens.

"the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly"

I couldn't disagree more. Read this

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html>

and see if that changes your thinking. Joel refutes your statement much better than I ever could.

(My favorite line: Five Antonio Salieris won't produce Mozart's Requiem. Ever. Not if they work for 100 years.)

<comment><USER24> I only skimmed it, but I don't think it applies. Who says those guys wanted to start a Software Company? Quote: "This is a conversation about software companies, shrinkwrap software, where the company's success or failure is directly a result of the quality of their code."

Also the comparison to Brad Pitt really makes no sense. People don't go to see Brad Pitt moves because he is an x times better actor than others. Not saying he is bad, but surely some cheaper nobodies could be found who acts well, too. But they wouldn't be famous and therefore would not draw a crowd.

Same with Salieri. Sorry, but there are zillions of programmers who could program a Twitter, for example. Sure, there are some kinds of programs that most programmers would be unable to write, but it doesn't apply to most Web Apps.

Even if the programmer thing would make a difference, the business guys still could not possibly care, because they have no way of knowing if a programmer is good or not.

Think about building a house. Once the architecture is done, surely there are lots of building teams who can build it. Sure, some will screw it up, but most won't.

Also, I think in the beginning the business guys might be looking for a prototype. If it takes off, they can still worry about finding rockstar programmers.

<comment><USER25> Here's why this essay struck a nerve with me.

There are certain things that 10% of the hackers I ever met could do in x amount of time that the other 90% could never do. In any amount of time.

The longer I work in this field, the truer that seems.

And managers have never understood that. They look at us as "person hours" to be mixed and matched to achieve their goals. I've never seen that work well.

How many times have you given an estimate like this:

For me: 1 day. For me and Joe together: 2 days. If you give it to Joe first and then give it to me: 1 week.

Idea guys understand this about as well as managers. And often they need someone from the top 10% whether they know it or not. Not just for programming, but also for analysis, design, testing, scaling, and deployment.

<comment><USER24> But what if it doesn't matter if it takes a day or a week? And how is the business person to know? Just because Joe asks for a lot of money, are they supposed to believe that he is good?

I think you are confusing your personal experiences and situations with the situation of some business guy. They are not out to start a software company, where they will manage programmers. They just want product x build.

It is an exchangeable skill, in the same way as there are thousands of mechanics who could fix your car, or thousands of window-makers who could create a window for your house, or thousands of carpenters who can create a cupboard to your specifications.

If you drive your car into some mechanics garage, you are not expecting to manage that mechanic. You just want your car fixed.

<comment><USER26> Joe has a problem with his car, it makes a terribly annoying sound. He goes to Mechanic A who decides to replace his engine. Problem solved, cost 10000$. John has exactly the same problem (with the same cause), he goes to mechanic B who finds out that a small part of the engine needs replacement. Problem fixed, cost 65$.

Btw, software, unlike buildings or chairs, is extensible and the (technical) desing decisions of the programmer are very important in how extensible it is or if it is extensible at all.

<comment><USER24> Those examples are just outliers. You can always be unlucky. But the majority of mechanics can fix your car. And the problem remains: how are you supposed to know beforehand which mechanic is good?

Extensible software: maybe it doesn't matter so much for a prototype. If the concept proves itself, you could also start writing it again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> If you believe that code is poetry, then programmers are artists.

</comment><comment><USER28> In a similar situation actually! I like your approach!</comment>


Ask HN: Recommendations for secure browsing? - <AUTHOR>

Given recent news like this, http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/07/undeletable-cookie, I have been thinking about ways to secure my browsing.<p>what do other HNers do? Any suggestions on how I can improve my browsing habits? <comment><USER2> I don't know if being that paranoid is healthy, unless the government or the mob is trying to get you. In which case, there are easier ways to do so besides tracking your browsing habits.

Having said that, maybe you can try browsing on a VM that you can reset via snapshots.

</comment><comment><USER3> GlimmerBlocker (Mac) is a filtering proxy that lets you do just about anything (including filtering headers) to your browsers conversation with a webserver.

<http://glimmerblocker.org/>

Also (in case you haven't already done so), disable Flash or use ClickToFlash.</comment>


Employers Are Looking for Job Candidates in the Wrong Places - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/12/employers-are-looking-for-job-candidates-in-the-wrong-places/549080/?single_page=true <comment><AUTHOR> It's as if every HR department is singing off the same old tired sheet of music: BS degree with 3-5 years of experience... There is almost zero creativity or non-group think among hiring zombies.</comment>


Trump's Next Trade War Target: Chinese Students at Elite Schools - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/trump-s-next-trade-war-target-chinese-students-at-elite-schools <comment><USER2> Students from China (and many other countries) are required to renew their visas annually, a process which is already quite nerve-wracking for many. PhDs in particular can take anywhere from 4 to 8 years to complete, meaning 4-8 chances for your studies to be interrupted with the only option to return home while the visa renewal stalls. This article explicitly calls out the fact that renewals seem to have been getting slower, which will impact a lot of students.

The US already lost out on multiple academic generations of bright Iranian students and scientists thanks to their restrictive visa policies. If they further hamstring themselves by excluding Chinese students, the decline of American science will accelerate dramatically. Already, science budgets are continually slashed and grants are harder to find. Slowing the pace of scientific development is a short-sighted move that will likely not be felt in full for decades, but it will definitely be felt.

Science exists outside of the USA - now is as good a time as any to consider research in places like Canada, Europe, Japan, Korea, and yes, even China. Language doesn't need to be a barrier - increasingly, many prolific institutions are conducting much of their work in English.

<comment><USER3> Your first point is incorrect.

First a student asks for an F-1 (sometimes J-1) visa. This can be delivered for a single entry (typical for Iranian students for instance), or for 1 or like 5 years (the common case for international students). The visa lets you _enter_ the country.

Once admitted in the US, a student can remain indefinitely while maintaining its student status (including school transfers). This applies to Chinese students as well. There is no renewal and if you only go to school or transfer school, nothing can really happen. There's nothing to renew every year.

The issue that arises is when a student leaves the US with an expired VISA. Then he has to apply for a new one before coming back. This is where it can get complicated. I have a student/friend who go stuck 4 months (in China) waiting to renew his VISA.

<comment><USER4> So once a student has been on a F-1 visa for more than a year, they face a risk of being barred from re-entering the US if they choose to visit their families?

<comment><USER3> Yes. Arguably, it's not common, though. But it's certainly possible, and the reason some decide not to leave.

<comment><USER4> So... A de facto ban on exiting the country?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was a grad student when the Tienanmen Square demonstrations happened. Chinese students in the US formed the backbone of a network that maintained communication with their compatriots in China.

I personally think that welcoming international students and treating them with goodwill is good foreign policy.

<comment><USER6> I agree with you in principle... anything that potentially averts a WWIII, I'm willing to try. In practice though I see almost no integration between US and Chinese students (at the undergrad level anyways) on campuses. At most institutions there is a huge community of Chinese students, enough that there does not seem to be a need to go beyond it in order to have a social life. A lot of the students I interact with, even after 3-4 years living in the US, still speak almost no English, for example. I confess to being at a loss, at times, as to what the point of hosting so many undergrads from China really is. (Other than making a lot of money for the university.)

<comment><USER7> After university, many foreign students stay in the US.

Majority US-born teams are vanishingly rare at all of the tech companies I've encountered, and that includes some of the biggest companies to early phase startups.

I can't imagine Silicon Valley continuing to function without a constant influx of foreign talent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "In April, three researchers were also let go by the University of Texas's M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in connection with an investigation into possible foreign attempts to take advantage of its federally funded research." This is the real reason why visas are getting denied. Why would you want to enjoy the fruits of living and working in America but benefit other countries (even if you once belonged there)?

<comment><USER9> I must admit to some confusion about why federally-funded cancer research results aren't available to everyone.

<comment><USER8> Imagine getting funding in USA for research and sending the research and results back to China so they can patent it before. Who benefits then?

<comment><USER10> As opposed to a US spinoff company getting it and keeping all oversea profits offshore in Ireland etc. to avoid taxation?

<comment><USER11> That "loophole" was closed in 2017 by the Trump Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (GILTI/transition tax).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> A well-known Youtuber called Serpentza recently made a video about how Chinese students don't assimilate into American culture and how it is made difficult for them to assimilate, partly due to overt action from the Chinese government.

For one thing, Chinese culture is quite alien to western culture, and I don't mean that in a judgemental way, just that their spoken, written and body language is so much different that it is automatically harder for them. It doesn't help that they are told by the educational system and state media how great China is and how bad the US.

Also the students going abroad are highly selected. Not only for academic qualities, but students (or their families) who show a lack of loyalty to the state will have a tougher time even obtaining an exit visa. I wouldn't be surprised if cooperation with intelligence services in terms of spying on American universities isn't part of the deal, too.

<comment><USER13> So because the societies are so different and have limited contact, should we seek to cut off one of the few opportunities young people from borderline enemy countries across the world have to interact, or give them a space to interact freely?

I know most Chinese students at my university kept to their in-group and never interacted with anyone else. I also know loads who found a new culture that they felt comfortable in, made new friends, and started families.

Even if a bunch go home and forget about their time in America, plenty are having life-changing and potentially society-changing experiences.

<comment><USER14> It's not about societies being different. It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, refusing to participate in classes, completely refusing to integrate, engaging in pro-chinese anti-local political activism, and basically expanding the CCPs political reach into foreign universities. This is something that all tertiary educators are painful aware of, as is the reluctance of faculty to take disciplinary action against international students because they're a major source of revenue. This is also something that is quite unique to Chinese and not other international students.

The Chinese students who don't subscribe to the CCP agenda are pressured by the others. They get labelled traitors, ostracised, word gets around and their families get harassed back at home.

In a nutshell, the CCP has identified inclusive societies as a soft target for remote propaganda achieved via international students. The CCP is highly selective in deciding who gets to leave the country to study abroad. This is something that couldn't even be discussed until recently because such discussions were/still are labeled as racism.

Stuff like this: [http://www.tibetanjournal.com/tibetan-girl-wins- university-e...](http://www.tibetanjournal.com/tibetan-girl-wins-university- election-chinese-students-protest/)

If AU/US international students tried to do anything like this in China, they'd be deported in the following few days but not before getting death threats and having their entire family doxxed and harassed.

<comment><USER15> > It's about Chinese international students engaging in blatant plagiarism, > refusing to participate in classes

This is not only blatantly untrue, but insanely racist.

<comment><USER14> [https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla- cheating/](https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-cheating/)

[https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-uni-probes- inside-...](https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-uni-probes-inside-job- exam-scam-20161007-grwwpc.html)

[https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/international- stude...](https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/international-students- drive-university-cheating-boom/)

[https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/exclusive- buying...](https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/exclusive-buying- essays-ghostwriters-allegedly-widespread-among-international-students-nz- universities)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Demographi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_dishonesty#Demographic_and_personal_causes)

<comment><USER15> Hundreds of thousands of Chinese students go abroad to study every year. Some of them cheat. Some of them get caught cheating. Some of those cheating scandals make the news. Guess who also cheats? People of every ethnicity and country.

It is true that test prep is a big deal in China. If there's a test to get into a top university, students are going to study like mad to pass that test. You're portraying that as a bad thing. Maybe it is bad to study to the test, but they're just playing by the rules as they exist - the test determines your chances, so you study as hard as possible for that test. If you want to change that behavior, make the test less important, or make it more creative.

One of the most disgusting smears against Chinese people is that they think cheating is okay. Just like in the West, cheating is looked down upon in China and cheaters are despised. Education is highly prized in China (Confucian ideals and all that), and normal parents and teachers certainly do not accept cheating.

What is also true is that in general, science/math education in Chinese primary/secondary schools is far more rigorous and difficult than it is in American schools. Kids generally learn advanced math at a much younger age in China, and that probably has something to do with the high number of extremely highly qualified engineers and scientists that the Chinese educational system produces.

<comment><USER12> I don't even see them making the point that Chinese students cheat more than others.

But there seems to be a persistent story of political activism and bullying that is pretty unique, and it seems to stem from organized politics rather than individual action.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> From a purely self-interested perspective, this is the dumbest thing the US could possibly do. There are talented people who want to leave China and come study and work in the US. We are basically stealing China's best minds. Now we're telling them they can't come and shipping them back? I don't think we should have conflict with China, but, if you are looking for conflict with China, sending brilliant minds back to them is so stupid that it's almost unimaginable

<comment><USER17> Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"? Please, show me some evidence for this egregious claim.

There is no such thing as modern Chinese meritocracy.

<comment><USER18> >Are you seriously saying that the children of the wealthiest families in China are "China's best minds"?

As we've seen with the recent scandals (and we also knew before), the wealthiest American attendees are hardly America's best minds either.

Don't think this is a problem that only applies to foreign students. If you want to remove wealth advantages for top tier universities I'm all for it, but it's a bad club to use in this debate.

<comment><USER19> Don't presume a few exceptions in America meritocracy (who drastically overpaid and had to jump through tons of hoops to cheat the system) compare to what is the norm internationally.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This tactic could sorta make sense – if narrowly directed at "princelings" who are children of top officials, rather than top students we'd love to have stay in the US. (I don't have much hope clumsy trade/immigration bureaucracies & grandstanding politicians can be that subtle, though.)

<comment><USER21> All this anti-China activity almost reminds me of the "yellow peril" at the turn of the last century...

<comment><USER22> I would agree except that it's one hundred years later and there are Uighur re-education camps and social credit scores and new islands in the South China Sea with missile platforms and statements about reconquering Taiwan and... well.

<comment><USER23> And the USS Maine definitely did sink in a Cuban port.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Like some comments pointed out, targeting on talent will be ineffective, if not backfiring. And just like most typical dumb policies, it's targeting on symptoms (students not integrating or researchers leaving) not real causes and issues in this country: race, economic and fake news.

The racial problems and slow economic in US is making international students less motivated to stay in US, and particularly when it comes to Chinese students, they have an easy fallback option.

The propaganda and fake news is making it worse. While on one side nationalism propaganda is flowing in from the China (particularly on WeChat and Zhihu), on the other side fake news targeting on Chinese students and broadly minorities/foreigners are pushing them further away.

In the past, US administrations have made some really smart decisions like helped establish one of best universities in China[1], and generously welcomed the Chinese student from Tiananmen Protest in 1989[2].

This administration is fond of self-claimed wars, targeting students and researchers is a war easy to win, even much easier than the trade war, but we all know history which tells us where it leads to.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University#Early_20th...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsinghua_University#Early_20th_century_\(1911–1949\))

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Student_Protection_Act...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Student_Protection_Act_of_1992)

</comment><comment><USER25> (with a terrible russian accent) USA can be the opened center of the free world or it can be the closed and most powerful contry in the world. If USA uses its position as the opened center of free world to become closed contry that rules the world, we all will have a hard time.

</comment><comment><USER26> The original idea is to let the idea flow. Given the greatness of freedom, Democrat and human rights they would ... not in real life. Even down to have top scientists who do human baby experiment.

May be if one can go two ways at least both can learn the good and bad in both cultures. But no. Like one dudes trade it is free trade to the world but how many can research freely in china.

Good luck. Finally wake up. It is sad that the dream of good coin can drive out bad coin not working. Instead the coin just come, and still bad coin.

Still wonder why Soviet Union or Russia is not allowed by and large do that. But china can. It is a wonder of the 20th century - only found out in the 21st.

</comment><comment><USER27> There is the story which isn't new that China is using some students as spies. A long game where students end up staying in the USA after graduating and getting jobs in Industries where they pass information back to HQ/China.

[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/25/china- uses-...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/25/china-uses- students-as-spies/)

A senior U.S. counterintelligence official recently said publicly what many officials and experts have been warning privately for years: China is using its large student population in the United States to spy.

</comment><comment><USER28> Elite universities have been more than complicit in this as well, especially when they can charge such a premium on "international student" tuition. It is also why they so often look the other way when those students bring their cultural values on things like cheating with them. No one dares admit it for fear of being labeled racist or xenophobic.

<comment><USER29> Can't speak for the US but this is certainly the case in Australian Universities, I've had interns that don't speak enough English to order a hamburger yet somehow got masters degrees. Cheating is rampant and the Universities will look the other way, even threaten teachers that fail students. The industry has the legitimacy of a pyramid scheme and deserves to be shut down.

While they're here many students will also work more than the allowed 25 hours a week (meant for industry experience not ubereats) and for below minimum wage, which has a huge affect on the job market for younger people.

<comment><USER30> Just to be clear, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students got the degree through fraud or low standards.

Speaking and listening can be harder than reading and writing, so the students might be doing good work even if their spoken language isn't very good. Also in technical subjects you might not need to know the language well to pass the tests and do the homeworks.

As an example, I have an Msc from a French language university, but I can't really understand the language.

<comment><USER29> > Just to be clear, this doesn't necessarily mean that the students got the > degree through fraud or low standards.

From what I understand of the process there are meant to be English literacy tests for ESL students and I think most of them have a spoken component. It's not necessarily the students (some or even most of them would be the victims) but someone in the system certainly is certainly fraudulent.

As for technical competency of the ones I've worked with in the intern program, they're lucky we didn't get to select them because they wouldn't have passed the most basic coding test (simpler than fizzbuzz) in any language. It was much more than the practical vs theoretical divide too, as far as I could tell they were completely bereft of theoretical knowledge, even the basics of their masters specialties.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> This is probably warranted.

<comment><AUTHOR> I disagree with you, but am curious about your argument. Wouldn't this cut off the brain drain that's contributed to decades of American technological supremacy and economic growth?

<comment><USER32> No.

Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America's technological supremacy and economic growth? Ha ha good try but no.

Besides, India isn't affected by this and they make up equal share of foreign students in American Universities.

Plus, you know, western European students, African students, Russian, etc, have also contributed over the decades.

China isn't everything.

<comment><AUTHOR> > _Are you trying to credit Chinese students as the sole reason for America 's > technological supremacy and economic growth?_

No, but more is more. The carrot is the cream of a billion people tasting American culture and having the opportunity to contribute to it. I'm just trying to see the counterbalancing, and un-mitigatable, cost or risk.

<comment><USER33> Elite Chinese talent is more likely to return to China, and therefore it becomes counter-productive. Plus, the US is in direct competition with China, which isn't the case with most other countries. So, to simply say "more is more" in this circumstance is false.

It's hardly a tragedy that rich kids in China can't attend Ivy League schools in the US.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> In 2013, the number of Chinese students returning to China after graduating hit 90%. [1]

It used to be more like 9 in 10 would remain in the US to work.

If foreign graduate students are staying and working in the US, it's probably a net benefit hosting them in US schools, even though it drives up demand and therefore tuition costs for US citizens.

If 8 or 9 out of 10 are returning to China, better to keep the spot for someone who will work in the US.

Now it's probably government policy that's the main driver for so many Chinese foreign exchange students to return to China (both US and China policies align in this sense), but it's not like Trump is going to open up work visas for graduating Chinese students, so in that reality it makes sense to tighten the student visa issuance to account.

With 360,000 Chinese foreign exchange students, and I'm willing to bet that's disproportionately private universities (5 million total enrollment) rather than public. I wonder what the elasticity of demand is for college these days, and how much of a tuition price drop that could entail?

Unfortunately my personal experience is there is very little integration on campus between foreign exchange and domestic populations, which precludes even the cultural benefit. Colleges claim they cultivate a rich/diverse environment but in reality the students largely exist within their own circle. It may be different at the graduate level, where ~25% of enrollment is foreign. I recall a NYT article last year about it, but I can't find it presently.

[1] - [https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly- return-...](https://qz.com/1342525/chinese-students-increasingly-return-home- after-studying-abroad/)

<comment><USER35> Most students returned to China because they are not allowed to work in the US. The chance of getting a work visa dropped significantly since 2010s.

Foreign students aren't getting American education for free; they pay much higher tuition. They are effectively subsiding the tuition cost of domestic students.

<comment><USER34> I know the international tuition is much higher. But economics dictate the university cannot increase prices when it finds itself with empty slots they need to fill.

Universities will take a large financial hit, but tuition should also decline in the face of lower demand.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Uh oh, I see a lot of Chinese names on academic papers describing breakthrough research.

</comment><comment><USER37> It would be nice if we could add some human rights issues to Trump's list of grievances. I feel like coverage of what's going on would feel entirely different if part of it was saying "stop running concentration camps"

Edit: curious why the downvotes

<comment><USER38> At least to me, your comment reads like you wish Trump would act more like Hitler so you could feel more justified in not liking him.

Edit: See reply below. I realize now that this was me misinterpreting the parent's words.

<comment><USER39> Caring more about human rights abuses is to "act more like Hitler" Sheesh..

<comment><USER38> Perhaps I misread the comment, which is probably what other people did as well then.

I believe based on your comment, the intended statement was "I wish Trump would make a bigger deal out of China's human rights abuses." Which does seem pretty reasonable.

Given the general pattern of comments on the internet where everything about Trump is negative, I read it as "I wish Trump would have some human rights abuses added to his list of things that are wrong with him"

As I said, sounds like that is my mistake. I am guessing others may have read it that way as well.

<comment><USER34> Buttercup's comment is a sweet little Rorschach test.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best way to word contact with owner of domain you want - <AUTHOR>

Hi guys, I was wondering how you would recommend contacting the owner of a domain you are interested in. Brief summary: there's a startup idea I'm playing with and I came up with what I think is a great, clever name. I was sitting in a Starbucks brainstorming when it hit me and I immediately pulled out my iPhone and tried to visit the site. It wouldn't load—good sign! Unfortunately later I did a WHOIS and discovered the domain is actually owned by a man from India who doesn't seem to be using it for anything—it doesn't even have A records pointing at a server.
As such, I am considering contacting this man to express interest in his domain but as I'm bootstrapping this venture I can't afford to be gouged too badly on a domain name. I know the "if the name is THE name for your product, spare no expense" mantra but realistically I can't afford to pay $10,000 for a domain name just because they know I want it badly.
So, my question is this: how would you recommend approaching the situation in an email to the owner in a way that is respectable but also portrays professionalism in hopes for a reasonable business discussion? <comment><USER2> 1\. Don't overthink it or assume any dollar amount. You're only causing your own problems/stress.

2\. Try to get an email (maybe off WHOIS) and email the guy to see if he is even interested in selling.

3\. Go from there.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have a domain that I registered well over a decade ago. It's a simple, single english word and an extension. I don't even reply to the ones that don't give me a price up front.

The ones that have given me a price haven't been in the ballpark to make it worth my while, but at least they get a reply (aka communication channel).

</comment><comment><USER4> Even if the name hasn't got an A record, it might still be listed by the owner in Sedo. So take a look there if it is listed.

Otherwise go for what Toph is suggesting in his reply.

</comment><comment><USER5> It's really hard to answer this question generally. The approach depends totally on the name and what you are willing to spend and if you have a plan b etc.

"owned by a man from India "

Generally speaking that's actually a good sign from my experience.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't have any particular advice for the question asked, but as an aside, checking the domain first is the worst thing to do.

Domain squatting is such a big deal that squatters purchase unresolved domain reports from ISPs, meaning that your phone's carrier is likely selling a list of all the domains that aren't registered that people are searching for. If you hesitate at all on acquisition, the domain might get scooped out from under you.

I buy impulse domains all the time, and recommend that you get a whois app for your phone. Also, check to ensure that the whois provider doesn't sell their vacant search list as well. I know that whois.sc doesn't, so I pretty much use them for everything, but I don't have my phone at hand to see what app I use there.

Lastly, when registering, many of the registrars do the same thing. Name.com doesn't, GoDaddy does, but those are about the only ones I can speak for off- handedly.

<comment><USER5> "Domain squatting is such a big deal that squatters purchase unresolved domain reports from ISPs, meaning that your phone's carrier is likely selling a list of all the domains that aren't registered that people are searching for. If you hesitate at all on acquisition, the domain might get scooped out from under you."

Minor chance of that. Besides even after you run a WHOIS you would typically visit the site to see if it's parked or being used or to simply gather further info.

"Also, check to ensure that the whois provider doesn't sell.."

You can run a whois right from your command shell. (You have no control of course over the registrar who has the whois server running of course no matter what client you use.)

"when registering, many of the registrars do the same thing"

In general if you are brainstorming about names it is necessary to do several things that might tip someone off.

I've been doing this since 1996 every day and personally have never had this problem.

(By the way as an aside you might want to register the obvious typo of your domain name.)

<comment><USER6> That you've never had the problem doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, as I definitely have. There are also a variety of other horror stories where people have had similar things happen to them.

That said, I don't disagree that it's a minor chance, but the chance exists, and with a little mindfulness, it's worth shrinking the likelihood of that happening even further. There's nothing worse than finding the 'perfect' available domain name, gathering feedback from partners (delaying registration) and then finding out it was taken.

It isn't inevitable, and a good argument could be made for promiscuous domain purchasing without delay, but if it matters to you, then you should be concerned with the ways in which domain poaching is more likely. If it doesn't, then feel free to disregard.</comment></comment></comment>


Danchev found hospitalized in Bulgaria, local news report - <AUTHOR> http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/report-zdnets-danchev-hospitalized-011711 <comment><USER2> Is there a way to tell if these 'jihadist' sites are real, or just honeytraps or simply fakes?

<comment><USER3> May be you can have a look at it backlinks and alexa rank to see if its popular.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I thought this was interesting, because we speculated here on HN about his disappearance and probable mental illness after his bizarre last posts were published.

</comment><comment><USER4> Already posted in a Tell HN:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2112135>

</comment><comment><USER5> The whole story is very strange. I think the most baffling part is where he is being set up by the police for his "pro Western" views in a pro Western country.

<comment><USER6> I'm bulgarian, and didn't know Danchev before this article.

As for the "Pro Western" country ... this is only on the surface. Western movies, music, dances, clothes, etc. a cool, but deep inside it's still a very eastern country with lots of prejudice, racism, stupid old traditions.

For example, our premier was just caught protecting some of his own people (a beer factory owner) out of customs examination... Because he promised the guy, and he never brokes his promises.

Such people are treated with more respect ("not breaking his promises to someone"), rather than "Not breaking his promise" to the country he's supposed to minister.

People in bulgaria, like autoritharian figures - it does not matter whether he's always following the law, it's about keeping his word.

Most of the bulgarian mafia, is feed by russian mafia money (laundering). A lot of the resorts are built with such, and many other.

Corruption is huge, and "paying under the table" is the norm.

It reminds me of what America was during the 1920-30.

Hopefully things would get better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is there anything we on HN can do to help him? Possibly bring him stateside?</comment>


Quipu - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu <comment><USER2> Calling it the Inca sneakernet would have been more accurate. Even then, however, what the Wikipedia article discusses is more of a medium for storing numerical data than a means of communication, so the comparison is forced.

<comment><USER3> (Original title: "The Inca Internert")

<comment><USER4> Mods invisibly changing titles really bothers me.

It's even worse that the mods decided it was a great idea to silence debate by [dead]ing the topic when HNers discussed possible alternatives.

Makes me wonder how much longer I want to stay in this community.

<comment><USER5> This is a classic case of why mods should be changing titles.

How on earth is this an Inca Internet??

This is why I clicked, I was intrigued how can the Incas have have had an Internet like thing?

I then wasted a lot of time trying to see the relationship. But there is none. It's not even close to an Internet.

I just got link baited. Welcome to Reddit.

The article in itself is probably interesting, but I'm not big on being lied to.

Other discussions about threads disappearing might be interesting but aren't really relevant in this thread.

<comment><USER6> It was the closest thing the Incans had to an Internet, and a bit more like digital technology than those of us raised on the idea that the Incans had no system of writing would expect. And of course anything with such a title will be speaking figuratively: if you were fooled, or unable to see the basis for the metaphor, the fault lies as much with your literalism as the original submitter's stab at metaphor.

Now, I'd agree "The Incan Internet" could be improved as a title, especially to explain the article's relevance to this audience. "Quipu: the Incans' digital communication tech" would bridge the gap from the original title to the interesting, vaguely-Internet-like aspect for HN readers.

Unfortunately, it seems the mysterious headline-changing-Gnomes of HN only have a button for "revert to original TITLE", and a fierce loyalty to literalism over creative-but-fair headlines. So, we wind up with useless-but- easily-enforced crap headlines like "Quipu".

<comment><USER7> It's part of a disturbing presentism that is (and probably has always been) rampant in popularized history. It's as if authors think we can't understand anything unless we see it through the lens of some popular current technology or movement. It's a great way to misunderstand something entirely.

This trivializes the subject of history, by enforcing the idea that nothing ever changes. "The Incas had an Internet, we have an Internet, so they must have been just exactly like us, so studying them is a waste of time." Moreover, it ignores the real work done in modern times to make our era different from times past: If anything we have now can be equated with something we had then using facile arguments that make a hash of the facts, then we can make it look like there is no progress and that we don't need to study science or technology any longer.

It's sham history in the service of sham philosophy.

<comment><USER6> If an author had written a long case defending the analogy, maybe. But it was a throwaway metaphor in a headline to pique interest, so I think you're projecting those other unrelated concerns onto the situation.

In particular, it's those complaining about how the headline wasted their time who are belittling the value of historical comparisons across very different eras and societies. Their reaction is, "What? The Incans didn't really have anything that could literally be called an Internet? You tricked me into clicking when I could have stayed even more narrowly focused on my present-day Internet-centric concerns!"

Whereas instead, the headline author was trying to shake people out of their presentism with the figurative language. "There is something surprising here about the Incans", he was saying – and absolutely not any larger objectionable/anti-intellectual theme about how "there is no progress" (which is obviously unsupportable from the details on the Quipu system).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This was my best scoring Scrabble word.

<comment><USER9> "quipu" is worth 16 points given no extra bonuses (according to [http://www.thekatespanos.com/scrabble-score- calculator/?word...](http://www.thekatespanos.com/scrabble-score- calculator/?word=quipu)).

<comment><USER8> I landed it on the triple word score square.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> So the Incans independently invented a representation of 0 and a based number system? That's pretty cool.

<comment><USER11> Base system, yes. Zero, no.

The Babylonians also had a representation of 0 as being a space. But that created confusions because you can't end a number with a space. For example, 1 and 100 would look the same if you just used a space in place of zero. They eventually created a symbol for zero, but never used it by itself or at the end of a number.

Similarly, the Incas used a space for a zero, but it creates the same reliance on context to deduce the meaning of a space. And since the Incas represented numbers differently in the ones place, that was their marker for the end of a number, which means it can't be nothing. I imagine they could leave a space at the end and use the context of the numbers above or below since numbers were vertically aligned in the quipu.

So no, Incas did not have a proper zero.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> An enterprising jeweller could draw inspiration from this to create necklaces with hidden messages for us nerdy types to buy for partners. Cord, wool, silver thread, wires, etc.

They could also do a range inspired by the pulsar distance/frequency depiction in the Voyager Golden Record that describes our Sun's location. I've always thought that was quite cool.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Voyager_Golden_Record_Cove...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Voyager_Golden_Record_Cover_Explanation.svg)

</comment><comment><USER5> Given the original title "The Inca Internet" why is it not just a mail system?

</comment><comment><USER13> Anyone else remember these from Amazon Trail (in the final scoring process)?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazon_Trail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazon_Trail)

</comment><comment><USER14> Native brazilians in the Xingu still use something similar for storing songs, like partitures.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm not sure if this would be immune to the NSA or not.</comment>


Free Freemium Workshop - <AUTHOR> http://wufoo.com/2010/01/18/wufoo-hitting-the-pavement/

<comment><USER2> Workshop is free.

If you want to ask questions during the workshop you will need to purchase a Questions Package. Our Basic QP is $10 and allows for 5 questions. The Premium QP is $20 and allows 15 questions (a $30 value!). Finally, there's the Unlimited QP which is $45 and allows unlimited questions during the workshop PLUS gives you the instructor's phone number so you can call him with questions at any time thereafter.

*Overage Questions will be billed at $2.50 each.</comment>


Ask HN: How much? - <AUTHOR> I am using an anonymous account for this post.  Indeed,  I registered this account solely for the purpose of this post.  Sorry, pg.
I have been freelancing for almost a decade, and I still never know what to say when a prospective client asks me this question.
Given that I have always worked alone, and given that I have never talked to anyone about this topic openly, my response has always been based on personal intuition.  Now I wonder if I am underselling myself.
I am not sure if this is a taboo topic among hackers, but my impression is that such a thing does not really exist.  But given that I don't know any hackers who freelance personally, I have a real need for getting some more datapoints.  If I don't know what others are billing, and I therefore bill significantly less out of my own ignorance and misestimation of effort, I reduce the average price at which others are able to charge.  The compound effect of this is tha we are all running like hamsters on wheels for very little money.
Between 16 and 21, I made 5 to 10 HTML-only websites for between $2,000 and $5,000.  I also made 3 to 5 flash-based intros/websites for between $5,000 and $20,000.
At 21, I made a .NET-based windows desktop app for $50,000.
At 24, I wrote a RoR web-based app for $100,000.
These were all freelance projects built by me from scratch while doing HS and Uni.
Does anyone else feel like sharing what they billed for contract projects (not subcontracting gigs, client-direct only -- before any type of broker takes their cut)?  It doesn't have to be something you did personally.  Maybe you know what the company you worked for billed for developing a specific type of app.  The results will only be interesting if we get numerous data points, and the best way to motivate more responses is to respond yourself. <comment><USER2> Not sure why you consider this such a touchy subject that you had to do it anonymously. Charging money for your services and skills is not a bad thing.

I've rarely done software development contracting, but I spent several years as an IT contractor (with a lot of scripting, and simple web-based UI work to make it possible for non-technical people to carry on when I've gone). I started at $95/hour, and by the end was quoting $150/hour with a four hour minimum for off-site work, and eight hour minimum plus expenses for on-site work (with a $1000/day discount rate for multiple days).

Most of my development work over the years has been product-focused, wherein no one client paid for the whole thing. I would build as generally as possible, retain ownership, and sell the result to many customers. I wasn't very good at this for the first five years or so, however, and ended up doing a lot of development for pennies on the dollar. I would talk to a potential customer, they'd say, "We wish your products could do X and Y." and I'd think, "Yeah, I bet a lot of people would like that", and would offer to provide it for some ridiculously low price ($199, or whatever) as a plugin for my existing product line...spend two or three weeks working on it (and sometimes money for icons, design, other developers, etc.) and then never sell another copy of that plugin. I suggest not doing that.

</comment><comment><USER3> Just for the sake of giving us more information, would you be willing to compare your RoR app with a website I made a while ago.

I got paid $500 to make <http://www.solafcars.com> (works in multiple languages, includes an admin panel, everything on the site is editable). I would assume your RoR app was much bigger, but let us know how it compares.

I know I got underpaid though.

<comment><USER4> Did this take more than 3 hours to make? Did you provide any post- implementation support at all? If either are true, you wildly underbid.

<comment><USER3> It definitely took more than 3 hours, I'm not superman lol. Everything was made from scratch. The admin panel took most of my time. Keep in mind I also made the design, registered the domain name and set up the hosting. Support was also provided, we got together so I could explain how he could manage the website on his own. It was my first real freelance project though, so I let him choose the price.

<comment><USER4> Your pricing may be off by as many as two orders of magnitude.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think it will be easier to answer your questions if rather than providing the total amount, you provide $/hour in those time periods.

<comment><AUTHOR> The problem with billing by the hour is that developer performance varies by a factor of 10x or more, whereas hourly fees vary by about 5x. And most clients would not feel comfortable playing $250-$300/hour unless there was some way for them to justify it. (i.e. more people involved, despite the fact that they may do nothing). Besides, why charge per hour? If I solve your problem, what does it matter how long it took me to do it?

<comment><USER5> I was not saying that you should charger per hour. I was asking that the numbers you floated will make more sense if you can provide how much time you spent on each of those projects. For example: you mentioned $100k on RoR project. This number will make more sense if you mention whether it took you 1000 hours or 10000 hours or maybe 3 months or 3 years.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, I see what you mean. It probably took about 1000 hours total, but spanned over a period of a year. So maybe 20 hours per week. I was just learning Rails at the time, so it took a bit longer than it otherwise would have. I could probably make what I made in about 1 to 2 months tops now.

<comment><USER6> 100000$ for two months work seems like a good price.

<comment><AUTHOR> I should probably mention that even though I spent 20h/day working on it, I spent/spend virtually every waking hour either reading/writing/thinking about writing software/business. I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't party. I live with my fiancee, and work pretty much every waking hour on something or other. I don't have a blog because it would consume too much time, and I don't interact with other developers because I worry that it will pull me toward the middle of the bell curve. I worry that I may be going insane, but only passively.

<comment><USER7> _I don't interact with other developers because I worry that it will pull me toward the middle of the bell curve._

Didn't you say you used RoR? You're okay with using other folks high-level code, but you think interacting with them will pull you towards the middle of the bell curve. Interesting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This has often been a hesitation of mine when being asked to do freelance projects. Before I took a web programming job, I had no formal training or experience so I always felt like I couldn't ask for high hourly rates because I wasn't confident enough in my work. After landing a job and doing it for a living, I still felt like I couldn't charge much because I would compare it to my salary which was a FAR cry from anything close to $50+ an hour. Because of the inhibitions, I've always just stuck with friends, friends of friends and family members when doing projects.

Now that I'm unemployed, I really think I need to reevaluate what my work is worth and start asking for a decent rate when projects come my way. The comments in this thread are definitely telling me I'm selling myself short - both in freelance projects and in what I fought through to earn what I earned at my last job.

Enjoying this thread. :)

</comment><comment><USER5> Somehow I feel that this post was more about being boastful than anything else.

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually, no. But I can see why you would think that. I _literally_ don't know the range of what is reasonable and what is not. Your comment is implicitly informative, though. Furthermore, if I was being boastful, I would probably not be hiding behind an anonymous account.

<comment><USER9> Boasting usually isn't done to make other people feel bad; it's to make the boaster feel good. This post could serve that purpose even anonymously. If people confirm that you indeed are being highly compensated, that could make you feel good about yourself.

Not that I think that was the intention.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Over the past few years, I've worked on quite a few PHP/MySQL/jQuery/Oracle webapps for clients. I've never worked on a plain HTML site or a Flash site, so I can't provide any stats there.

Here are some of my stats - most projects I have worked on cost around 10-20k, average around 75-100 an hour, and take approximately 3 months of part time effort. I've done maybe 15 to 20 projects of this length/cost. I like projects of about this size because: I am not overwhelmed, it allows for nice quarterly vacations ~ a week each, the requirements aren't overly complicated, I have free time during the day, and the projects don't drag on forever. I freelance in Austin, my wife covers me on her insurance, I'm in my late 20's, and have done this for 3 years.

I have bid on a few 100k-size, year long projects, but have not been selected for any of them so far. So it goes.

<comment> hippee-lee If you don't mind me asking, where/how do you find projects to bid on?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Boy am I in the wrong business if these kids can knock out CRUD apps for $100K.

<comment><USER12> Well, Laurent charged only $ 500 USD for his solution (but that's an anomaly).

If you are serious about web apps, then scaling the back end comes into play, which means getting into distributed systems. Networking, security and SysAdmin become relevant as well.

I think it's fair to charge up to $100K with a college education and/or work experience in the field. Other professions do so as well.

Go pick on other professions: i.e. banker bonuses, real estate commissions, union rates, lawyer rates etc.

<comment><USER5> so you are saying $500/hour is industry average? Hackeronymous mentioned that he charged $100k for a 1000 hour work which he could have done in almost 1/6th time if he was experienced. I am not sure about the industry average, but I work through guru/elance/odesk and average seems to be $50-$150 for an experienced developer.

<comment><USER12> No, in the example on this thread Laurent, a Belgian programmer, charged $ 500 USD for the whole solution, the whole shebang. (He could have just given it away for free, since the main point was to establish a reference)

Although, I admit... this example is really just a CRUD app, with no advanced server back end.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> assuming that your .net and RoR app took less than a year to finish and you're not killing yourself with the hours (around 40/wk), it sounds like you're doing fine.

<comment><USER4> 150,000/yr (~75/hr) is low.

<comment><USER14> How is that low? once again, I must whip out some statistics:

[http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresu...](http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_IT10000026.html)

The average full-time web developer salary is 70k. I'm not saying I don't want to make $150k+, but I just can't find any way to substantiate the claim that I'm worth that much.

<comment><USER15> don't forget payroll tax, supplied laptop/desk/electricity/etc, sick leave, annual leave, any skills development, the fact that you're also doing sales (which is probably more than 70K)..

Just because you have 70,000 listed on your annual pay summary - does not in any way mean that's how much your company spends to keep you employed. When you are a freelancer - you take on a lot of those costs yourself.

<comment><USER4> You're making the same mistake made upthread; price by value, not by cost. Payroll costs, leave, utilities, all irrelevant.

Freelancers make more because they accept risk. Customers pay extra to mitigate scheduling risk, recruiting risk, and project risk.

(Yes, you're not _viable_ if you can't at least pay freelancer overhead and still have a living wage, but that has nothing to do with what your bill rate is.)

<comment><USER16> Ah, I see the disconnect I made- I started talking about the 'doing fine' comment on the yearly salary, rather than the initial topic of pricing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I billed at AUD 75/hour as a Windows admin when 17.

Now GBP 550/day at 28 as a Linux architect and infrastructure software developer.

<comment><USER18> sweet fancy moses!

<comment><USER4> 550/day is not crazy high at all.

<comment><USER12> That's in british pounds, not USD.

Addition: did the math at www.oanda.com (currency conversion). GBP is LESS than what I thought: 1.63842 USD.

So, that's 900 bucks a day, resulting in $ 110-120 USD/ hour.

<comment><USER4> Yes, I know. It would be quite low in USD.

<comment><USER19> "We're hiring a Rails/jQ developer. NYC or Chicago"

Someone should take you up on $120 per hour being low!

<comment><USER4> We're not looking for contractors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Here's a useful outside perspective:

[http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/October/...](http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1999/October/01.html)

</comment><comment><USER20> I've been trying to work this out for some months now, so apologies for piggy- backing onto this question:

How do you actually _achieve_ market prices?

I'm aware that there are massive differences in how much you can charge based on location, but I still feel I'm hitting more resistance to my asking prices than I should be. As far as I can tell, it's not a quality issue. I've had repeat business from almost all my past customers and none of the others were unhappy as far as I can tell, and I've had zero downtime for over 6 months now after starting 15 months ago.

Yet, if I give a straight hourly figure, 90% of the time I'm either told it's too much or I never hear back at all. I do a little better when quoting a fixed price based on the same hourly rate (plus buffers, etc), but many times the work is too ill-defined to come up with a definite offer, so it comes down to giving an hourly rate, with the usual result.

I've had the most success and repeat business with extremely time-sensitive projects, or projects that have gone off the rails and need turning around. I charge about 50% more if I'm basically being asked to work day and night. Once the work is done and done well (and it always is), I can generally get future projects at the standard rate with no major trouble.

I've reluctantly tried the loss-leader strategy of charging less on the first project, and as expected it's not terribly effective.

So as far as I can tell, the issue isn't so much the price as proving I'm worth it. How do you guys handle referrals, references, etc.?

A lot of my work involves NDAs (as it's often subcontracted), which makes referring to existing work and customers extremely difficult. I have a few customers who are brilliant and who I can use as references, but as far as I know, nobody has ever followed them up. Other than literally becoming known by everyone in the area, what other options do I have? Am I expecting a higher conversion rate than I should be? How do I go about finding more well-paying customers?

Maybe I'm tending to the wrong niches, too. My background is mainly in high performance computing, game tech and web apps.

\- I've had zero HPC freelance work, and no leads either. No clue where to find them.

\- I've had a sizeable amount of game tech programming, but getting reasonable money from game devs seems to be like squeezing blood from a stone.

\- The web app business can yield better results, but there's a sea of awful programmers (who seem to exclusively know PHP for whatever reason) out there who call themselves web developers. Their hourly rates are dirt cheap, but their efficiency is lower still. I still can't reliably get this through to potential customers.

\- The easiest money is in business-y/enterprise-y development. Except the only way I seem to be able to do this is via subcontracting, which is suboptimal because it's the middle man getting the reputation.

I'm not sure what other areas are more lucrative. Embedded stuff seems like a good fit to my skill set (game console development isn't far off) but I have no clue how to even find potential customers. I'm not sure how or where best to sell myself to enterprise-y businesses.

<comment><USER4> Short answer: by turning down projects that are below your threshold.

Intermediate tactics:

* No matter how your SOW/MSA is structured, don't quote prices in terms of $/hour.

* When you get rate pushback, follow up with a bid for a smaller or more constrained project. Slip scope. Never slip your rate. You'll never get it back.

* Include a support retainer or annual/quarterly maintenance price, instead of giving that away for free.

<comment><USER20> Thanks for the advice, Thomas!

 _Short answer: by turning down projects that are below your threshold_

I'm slowly getting to the stage where I can afford this, but I've only built up about 6 months of runway, and it seems nobody starts projects in winter, which meant I came this >< close to running out of cash in February. I'm trying to avoid a repeat performance. Is it adviseable to turn down below- threshold projects purely for reputation's sake?

 _No matter how your SOW/MSA is structured, don't quote prices in terms of $/hour._

Easier said than done. I keep doing this dance where I'm avoiding giving an hourly figure, but end up going nowhere. Do you have a more specific suggestion for how to go about doing this? Also, what does 'MSA' stand for in this context? Too many meanings for google to be useful.

 _When you get rate pushback, follow up with a bid for a smaller or more constrained project. Slip scope._

Thanks, that's useful. Thinking back, that's happened by accident a few times, but I'll consciously encourage this in future. Some customers seem to fear this though: it seems they're afraid I'll build something only I can maintain and then charge them crazy money later. Maybe this happens. I don't know.

 _Never slip your rate. You'll never get it back._

Yep. I expected that, had to do it once or twice anyway. No fun at all.

 _Include a support retainer or annual/quarterly maintenance price, instead of giving that away for free._

So far, I've just billed individually for any but the most trivial maintenance. (e.g. 15-minute fixes to bugs that were blatantly my fault) How do I avoid scope creep on flat fees without it seeming like a raw deal to the customer?

<comment><USER4> An SOW is a statement of work. An MSA is a master agreement. Together, they're your contract.

If your BATNA is "lose house, live in box", the bill rate discussion is academic. Steadily raise your rate with new clients. Many consultants will advise you to build a steady pipeline and then raise your rates until you're turning away enough work to be 50+(Nx10)% utilized.

You can quote prices in fixed project dollar amounts (or by the milestone), and then cap your hours in an SOW. If you're working with procurements departments, it doesn't matter, since they're doing the math automatically. But don't offer up a $/hour amount.

I have less development consulting experience than many of the other commenters here do, but what I'd probaby do with regards to bugfix support is:

* Have a formal acceptance process, at the end of which the customer is responsible for signing off on the deliverable. Most large projects I've worked on are QA'd by the customer as well as the vendor.

* Have an escalation ladder for bugs, from cosmetic to data-loss, and have SLA time frames for free fixes on anything other than "cosmetic".

* Offer an up-front retainer contract for rapid (=better than SLA) bugfixes, changes, or feature requests, pointing out that if the customer does not opt for the retainer, feature additions and subsequent revisions will be full-on new projects subject to whatever your current rate and scheduling terms are.

Something I've learned in the past 4 years: scheduling risk is something many customers will pay to mitigate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I used to throw out numbers and almost always underbid. These days I ask for the budget, figure out how many hours that comes out to, and tell them what they get. I never give a number before the potential client tells me what they can spend. They know what they can afford so why play games?

<comment><USER22> Unfortunately some clients like to play this game and don't mention their budget. In my opinion this makes it worse for both sides.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> As another freelancer much below your rate I wonder if they knew you were a one man show in your 100K project. Usually firms want to see teams and sales reps in suits if they're going to shell out large amounts like that. How did you ever gained their trust?

</comment><comment><USER22> In my 3 years of freelancing I have done quite a few websites (40+), but I never reached prices that were this high.

Here are my rates. Btw I see no reason to post this anonymously. It's ok to charge money =)

\- HTML Website $1500+ (without design)

\- CMS $2200 - $12000 (without design)

Normally I'm using fixed prices, but in case someone specifically asks for my hourly rate I quote $70/h. Note: I ran this business part-time while doing my bachelor. Since I'm now a B.Sc (since last week) I think I might increase the rates. Guess that's appropriate, right?

<comment><USER24> Speaking for myself, if I was hiring someone to do a website, or a CMS, I couldn't care less if they had a B.Sc. or not. I wouldn't check, and I certainly wouldn't let it change my mind about the price being charged.

<comment><USER22> I'm fine with your argument, but you would be suprised how some clients are argueing. For example: "You are no professionals (read: no finished studies), therefore I'm not paying more than $X."

<comment><USER24> So they're just using it as a technique to get a discount? That's terrible :-(

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> damn I need to charge my clients more.</comment>


How new-lines affect the Linux kernel performance - <AUTHOR> https://lwn.net/Articles/767884/rss <comment><USER2> This contains more information:

[https://nadav.amit.zone/blog/linux- inline](https://nadav.amit.zone/blog/linux-inline)

<comment><USER3> Discussed at: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18169584](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18169584)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The linked LWN article provides just a short summary of part of a larger investigation into some strange inlining decisions when compiling the kernel. The full article also includes some bits about the solution used to address the title issue, as well as a section on why kzalloc() was sometimes not inlined despite looking like a very simple function.

The full article can be found at [https://nadav.amit.zone/blog/linux- inline](https://nadav.amit.zone/blog/linux-inline)</comment>


Nucleon, a dynamic TCP load balancer written in Rust - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/NicolasLM/nucleon <comment><USER2> haproxy can be configured in so many ways. Without providing your haproxy config and testing environment these numbers won't make sense.

For example, configure haproxy with tcp splicing, and now you eliminated all the userland/kernel copies between client/server, and haproxy goes as fast as your kernel + network IO can go.

<comment><USER3> Nicolas from Nucleon here. You are right, I probably shouldn't have put these numbers there as haproxy can be configured way better than it is with its default configuration.

I put them because I was impressed that Rust and mio, with little to no optimization, can compete with the best softwares out there.

<comment><USER4> I think it's useful to to have "untuned HAProxy" as a reference benchmark, to have a goal to measure pre-1.0 development progress against. When a project hits that order-of-magnitude of speed, you can assume it isn't screwing anything major up in its design.

<comment><USER2> I am not saying to tune HAProxy to win the benchmark. When you want to compare, it's a good idea to compare apples to apples.

Like I said in my previous comment, HAProxy is a doing a lot more than what it's being compared with. HAProxy has timeout schedulers that are activated on every packet received, maintain stats, logging, and a lot more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm surprised that dynamic backend management is based on Redis. This seems very heavyweight. Why not just a simple HTTP API?

<comment><USER3> Redis in Pub/Sub is quite lightweight in fact. It's just a TCP connection between your application and the Redis database. Once opened, you can get notifications almost for free.

I was thinking on adding a separate HTTP API to control the load balancer that would read and write to Redis, notifying the load balancer when changes should be applied.

<comment><USER6> But it's a SPoF and an extra remote or local service that has to be configured, maintained, etc. The thing that's coming online has to publish a message to redis anyway, so why not just maintain the service map inside the Rust application and open up a socket that allows those things to speak straight to Nucleon for mutating its configuration?

<comment><USER5> That's more what I was getting at, not "heavyweight" in the sense that I see it as a performance concern.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is putting the unit-tests inline with the code standard best practice in rust?

Overall it's an interesting project and seems like a nice showcase of actual rust src code.

<comment><USER8> Yes, the pattern used here is usual. However, you can also pull any module out to another file, if it gets too big. But the pattern is "Unit tests with the code, integration tests in a separate tests directory".

<comment><USER7> Thanks for explaining. I definitely like the pattern accounting for integration tests! That is really nice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This has a redis service dependency? That is weird.

<comment><USER9> As opposed to what, implementing your own proprietary control socket? Redis is extremely compact and stable, and relatively tiny.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Combined with dns SRV lookups it could be a nice alternative to connectable [0].

[0] [https://github.com/gliderlabs/connectable](https://github.com/gliderlabs/connectable)

</comment><comment><USER11> Great performance numbers, specially seeing that it only uses a single thread.

<comment><USER12> hmm.. nice and small .. trying this out now for some internal socks5 hacks</comment></comment>


Life with the MacBook Touch Bar is awful and I hate it - <AUTHOR> https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2020/02/17/life-apple-macbook-touch-bar-awful-hate/ <comment> atom-x Here's a tip for anyone that feels the same way: Better Touch Tool.

I used to HATE the touch bar, but after installing BTT and making a few customizations, the touch bar is now my friend.

Oh, and the new 16" macbook with a slightly smaller touch bar and the addition of a proper ESC key makes it a dream tool.</comment>


Ask HN: Any interest in project PhD$$$ – monetise your PhD? - <AUTHOR> Hi all, I am now working at PhD$$$ www.phdsss.com , a new internet project aimed at helping people monetise their PhD through a dedicated job board, tailored news, data science findings and hopefully a community. In these populist times, it may be useful to reassert the value of peer reviewed knowledge and methods against gut feelings and unchecked opinions, that's why I think this project can stick around long enough to become profitable. I can go bootstrapped & solo for a lifestyle business or with seed money & co-founders for a startup attempt: any interested party out there? Thanks. <comment><USER2> After reading the description and seeing that the website is down for maintenance I don't really get your model. Having a successful PhD is hard, building that into a successful business at the same time while working within the university constraints upon the PhD process is even harder. I don't see from a practical standpoint how the elements you mention would generalize well to being able to 'monetize your PhD'.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, many thanks for your words and the question. Testing waters with the concept right now. On one bright side, this project would like to help every PhD thesis become its own business or career for the author; on the other side, it would like to assist the authors to get however the most out of their theses and the skills they gained as postgrads. How? I have filled a business model canvas and will throw some tests up against the wall in the coming months, hoping something sticks.

<comment><USER2> > this project would like to help every PhD thesis become its own business or > career

That strikes me as disingenuous. Each PhD should make a mark on the field expanding upon the prior wealth of knowledge. That doesn't make each one suitable for a business opportunity, nor does the exact topic matter directly create a career (though the skills gained within the process should help greatly). I would recommend limiting your scope and talking towards particular examples and how the tools you may build could help those particular instances of PhDs.

> and will throw some tests up against the wall in the coming months, hoping > something sticks.

I'm confused then. Why are you posting about a particular project and a particular website if you're not going to post anything concrete for months? If you want to test the waters with a concept, you need to present it in enough detail that the pros and cons of a particular idea can be weighed.

<comment><AUTHOR> Months would be needed to try the hyphoteses from the business model canvas, one at time. And yes, a basic website as a functional box may go public next week but would make little sense before a couple of tests running behind the scenes. Now on Ask HN for a debate and to make this traceable, anyway. I am pretty sure similar projects may show up reading this post and they would be welcome: this is not going to be a one-takes-all kind of venture. Thanks again for your interest.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: keeping this project behind the scenes for good, no website, different name. Thanks everybody.</comment>


Show HN: Available .com's in /usr/share/dict/words - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=fY8xbZwB <comment><USER2> Histogram of word length. Keep in mind that the median word length in English is 5:

                  5     1 #
                  6    14 ##
                  7   104 ###########
                  8   326 #################################
                  9   414 ##########################################
                 10   380 ######################################
                 11   320 ################################
                 12   200 ####################
                 13   133 ##############
                 14    73 ########
                 15    35 ####
                 16    12 ##
                 17     8 #
                 18     1 #
                 19     1 #
                 20     1 #
                 22     1 #

edit: Someone points out below I had an off by one error, which I've now fixed.

<comment><USER3> Sorting by length is an interesting programming problem; it can't be done by a regular expression. One way is to use a mask:

        % sed -e "s/./x/g" < original.txt > mask.txt
        % paste mask.txt original.txt | sort | cut -f 2
        % rm mask.txt

<comment><USER4> Golf time! in js:

require('fs').readFileSync('list.txt').split('\n').sort(function(a,b){return b.length-a.length});

<comment><USER3> Eliminate the temporary file:

        sed -e "s/./x/g" < list.txt | paste - list.txt | sort | cut -f 2

<comment><USER3> We can eliminate the paste by using sed's hold buffer, but it costs another regexp to get rid of the spurious newline:

        sed -e "h;s/./x/g;G;s/\n/\t/g" list.txt | sort | cut -f2

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The vast majority of the good ones are taken, unfortunately. I am guessing he's not doing whois but instead looking at DNS records.

I have a daily cron job that looks at available domains sorted by word popularity. The vast majority are in some status that makes them not show up in DNS but are registered.

That said, I've been thinking of making some of the domain name tools I'm working on public...

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm using a modification of [https://gist.github.com/peterc/63893](https://gist.github.com/peterc/63893)

<comment><USER6> If you're interested in doing more of this stuff, I recommend getting in touch with verisign - they can give you free FTP access to copies of the .com and .net root zonefiles.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not really at all. This was just a 20 minute morning hack for fun. Thanks for the info, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Best one I saw in here was "pledges," which is screaming for a fraternity-run social network.

<comment><USER8>
        Domain Name: PLEDGES.COM
        Updated Date: 19-feb-2014
        Creation Date: 11-jan-2000
        Expiration Date: 11-jan-2014

So it's probably in redemption

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> These two would be good for specialized dating sites.

homeliest.com - A dating site where ugly people meet other ugly people.

outfoxes.com - Great name for a gay dating site.

<comment><USER9> So I tried registering outfoxes.com. It was available and in my cart... I get to check out and it is no longer available, but is now "up for auction" by name.com. WTF?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> <same program returns empty list tomorrow>

<comment><AUTHOR> I was planning on running it again tonight just for fun. There were 2024 to start with. We'll see what happens.

<comment><USER11> I'm curious, how many of them were snatched?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Some interesting numbers:

        $ wc -l domains.txt
        2024
        $ grep -Ev "(ing|s|ed|ly|est|ier)$" domains.txt | wc -l
        127
        $ grep -E "^.{1,7}$" domains.txt | wc -l
        119
        $ grep -E "^.{1,7}$" domains.txt | grep -Ev "(ing|s|ed|ly|est|ier)$" | wc -l
        15

The 15 words from the last command:

        almohad
        ayyubid
        boneyer
        chaitin
        copulae
        dourer
        eagerer
        layamon
        livia
        muawiya
        neglig
        shlocky
        unriper
        unsafer
        vilyui

<comment><USER13> chaitin.com: a service that solves the halting problem

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Here is the same list sorted by length:

[http://applied-math.org/words_sorted_by_length.txt](http://applied- math.org/words_sorted_by_length.txt)

<comment><USER14> Nice! Just a reminder of what's not here (and thus is registered):

All but one of the English words in a 100k word list that is less than 6 characters long. Average English word length is about 5 characters. Kind of mind boggling.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> chancel.com - get a 50:50 chance of cancelling your process or killing pid 0.

cuddlier.com - our cushions are

marauded.com - rebuilt your home in this upcoming ios freetoplay.

besieging.com - the long awaited sequel to Marauded. Spent the rest of your money on useless hats.

gawkiness.com - exposing the shady business practises of the unmentionables

offstages.com - your stars in authentic interviews

</comment><comment><USER4> Great hack!

Deeply trying to resist buying shlocky.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Was looking for an excuse to play with Haskell threads, so I read in the dict, put it into groups of 500 words each, and then distributed each group to one of 200 threads to whois everything.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> A music notation startup's field-day Multiple music terms: Decrescendoes, diminuendoes.

What's your retention rate at decrescendoes? <add joke here>

<comment><USER17> If you're creating music-related startups or software, you're probably better off getting a .fm domain, since it is easier to find good domains there and users are accustomed to it.

Funny enough, I actually considered some of the terms you suggested (my software fades out music when you play a video) before I started thinking about .fm. The obvious problem with the terms you mentioned are that they are long, difficult to spell, and obscure to non-musicians.

<comment><USER16> No .fm necessary for sextettes - the online dating site for music professionals.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> New words for my vocabulary:

congaed - past tense&participle of conga scrod - young cod/haddock/white fish split and boned. (also schrod, also available).

</comment><comment><USER19> symmetricly isn't a correct spelling as far as I can tell. This was just one that jumped out at me, looks like others might have similar issues.

Several of these were already registered for a long time, So I'm not sure how the check was done, but I did pick up UNSeats and UNsays, but I will likely use them as United Nations Says, not unsays which I don't think is something you can do.

</comment><comment><USER20> What's interesting is how many of the words are "negative" or have negative connotations.

<comment><USER21> I'm struck by how many are pluralizations or modified in some other way (-ier, -est, ...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wonder who will purchase urethrae.com. I thought fetish porn creators would have bought it by now.

</comment><comment><USER23> Why can't I find a clear explanation anywhere of when I'll be able to buy .app domains?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is using the ~100K American English wordlist.

</comment><comment><USER24> These are some pretty shit domain names hehe. Here is everything with fewer than 8 chars. Lorded.com seems promising though.

with open('domains.txt') as domains: for line in domains: if len(line) < 8: print line

befogs

cagily

dourer

drolly

gusted

livia

lorded

neglig

scrods

shirrs

soughs

tyroes

unmans

unsays

vilyui

<comment><USER25> You seem to be counting \0 as a char, or meant to find words less than 7 chars. Either way, there are just over 100 names available with 7 chars.

<comment><USER26> Probably counting \n as a character since Python is pretty good about never dealing with \0's.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> can't beleive "liviva" wasn't taken as a mispelling of "Libia"

<comment><AUTHOR> There are several good ones that I could see possible businesses wanting, such as "surfboarded"

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> tingliest.com - The 9GAG alternative the world has been so eagerly waiting for!

tinglier.com - oh shoot!

</comment><comment><USER29> livia.com would be the best of the bunch; whois shows it taken.</comment>