Learn 101: Learn Languages - <AUTHOR> http://learn101.org/ <comment><USER2> "Learn cantonese". Let's see how that one goes. Click.

"I would like to welcome you to the Cantonese lessons. I'm here to help you (bold)learn Cantonese(/bold)". Hello there, content-farm-robot-pretending-to- be-a-person.

Lesson 1: "Cantonese Alphabet". There is no alphabet in Cantonese, it's a Chinese language. Click.

"Today I will teach you the (bold)Cantonese alphabet(/bold). If (...more filler...). Cantonese contains more than 9900 letters". Hu, OK, let's stop here for the 'alphabet'. A quick look at the other 'lessons' shows what is obviously missing but would be in any true '101' Cantonese course: it's a tonal language, so you'd have to explain the tones first.

If you skim through multiple languages you will see a 'Translation' service (with a paid option, but it's the same page as the free one) that always point to the same (stock photo) translator. Not sure what that website is for, but it's not for learning any language.

<comment><USER3> I clicked on Cantonese as well. Their "alphabet" is just a bunch of Hanzi with _Mandarin_ Pronunciations next to them.

<comment><USER2> It looks like they have switched the Cantonese and Chinese content, the "Chinese" vocabulary is Cantonese written in Yale romanization (edited to add: I assume, being a non-speaker. On second look I'm not so sure of myself).

Since there is not a lot of learning material for it online, I find Cantonese to be a good 'BS-meter' for language websites (in that it's not too hard to see if they got the basics wrong or not).

<comment><USER4> Chinese is Mandarin and uses Pinyin. There are one or two mistakes.

Re Cantonese:

There are numerous mistakes - the romanizations don't always correspond to the Chinese characters, and many of the phrases are Mandarin idiom, which is different from Cantonese. So I can't recommend it.

I think it's Jyutping romanization. I wish it did use Yale, which I prefer, mainly because of how the tones are represented. Cantonese has several competing romanizations.

This site's better: [http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/](http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Tons of errors in the Thai section. I'm checking the gender vocab:

คน - Man - should be ผู้ชาย

มารดา/บิดา - Mother/Father - way too formal - should be แม่/พ่อ

Be very skeptical of language sites that have tons of languages from different families. You're better off on speciality sites/subreddits.

<comment><USER6> The German pronunciation guide also suggests ü sounds like the 'u' in 'ultra', but in reality it is more similar to Hubert[1] in English. Also 'z' is pronounced as 'ts' (not the suggested 'sea'), and 'y' is not similar to 'tea' (the Y in 'Yacht' is like the y in 'yes').

[1] [http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Hubert](http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Hubert)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> What is going on here?

[http://learn101.org/marathi_alphabet.php](http://learn101.org/marathi_alphabet.php)

This is not the Marathi alphabet. It's the Telugu alphabet.

<comment><USER8> Yup. There are loads of errors. They're also showing Telugu letters instead of Kannada and Urdu instead of Pashto. Another error I noticed was that the letter (ழ்) in Tamil is shown as [ḻ] like"rag" \-- I don't know what rag is doing here, ழ் is the retroflex approximant typically transliterated as zha.

I looked at the Kannada page in some more detail. Good news is that the phrases are in fact in Kannada (unlike the alphabet). But even here some of the translations are slightly off. The one for "he visits many countries" uses "urugalu" (places/towns) instead of "deshagalu" (countries).

I don't get the impression that this is a reliable site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Clicked on japanese.

"Japanese contains 26 letters (consonants and vowels)."

Then goes on with a table of 48 characters representing syllables. (including the 2 very rarely used ゐ(wi) and ゑ(we)). They happily skip the part where there are 2 such syllabary systems, plus the Chinese characters.

Then there are pages about "Japanese Plural" and "Japanese Gender" (Japanese doesn't have such things), and one about "Japanese Numbers" not explaining a thing about counter words.

This all looks like templated information that is the same for all languages. You're apparently expected to just translate from English word for word and hope for the best.

Edit: Oh, and it's funny that they only introduce hiragana, but also use katakana and kanjis for all words and example phrases.

</comment><comment><USER10> There are some basic errors, too, which are in the overarching structure of linguistic categories. For instance, 'and' is _not_ a preposition, as it states that it is in the language grammar sections.

Perhaps this is a curmudgeonly and pedantic observation, but linguists be linguists.

</comment><comment><USER11> Admirable idea, but not sufficiently complete. For example, the Korean alphabet section shows you the letters, but not how they are combined into syllables. The Russian grammar section doesn't address the concept of declension, as far as I can tell.

</comment><comment> D-Coder The Esperanto part seems pretty good. There is one section with consistent errors, "Mi vizitis francio" does need a -n ending (francion). And again, "and" is not a preposition. But that's all I noticed in a quick skim.

</comment><comment><USER12> The Khmer section has quite a few errors too. I was actually expecting them to have stolen / reused the audio files that my wife and I recorded for a Khmer learning web app a few years back (since that's happened on numerous occasions before) but there isn't any audio at all, or IPA, so this would be quite useless for someone learning Khmer.</comment>


Google Maps' Jen Fitzpatrick Says the Future of Maps Goes Beyond Driving - <AUTHOR> https://www.wired.com/story/google-maps-jen-fitzpatrick-q-and-a/ <comment><USER2> > We are hyper conscious of making sure that when we introduce ads into the > maps experience we're doing in a way that is useful and that is additive to > the experience and not a distraction or something that's going to get in > your way.

Google Maps was the final straw that got me to get Google out of my machines -- particularly mobile -- altogether (to the best of my ability).

What happened was that I was walking into a store and got an ad pushed to my phone for something in that store. That completely freaked me out, and I spent time investigating what happened. What happened was that Google Maps was keeping track of my location, and was the ultimate source of that ad being pushed.

That was a bridge too far, and I embarked on getting Google out of my life. So I find it ironic to read that comment I quoted above. I have zero faith in their ability to be well-behaved.</comment>


Rate my startup: RateMyStartup.com - <AUTHOR> http://ratemystartup.com/

<comment><USER2> I did just a quick browse but it looks good. One suggestion: it would be nice if the "Top Rated" sort list either filtered out submissions with just a few ratings or weighted them. Right now, the number 1 submission has just one rating, while number 3 has 21. I would put a TON more confidence behind the one with 21 ratings.

Good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot for the feedback. I've just tried some different settings for the lower bounds of what will appear. As of now it seems like settings a minimum number of at least 3 votes makes the Top Rated list looks much better.

What do you think of this?

<comment><USER2> Nice, looks a lot more legitimate.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great, thanks for the feedback.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why Convertible Debt Sucks - <AUTHOR> http://altgate.com/blog/2008/06/5-reasons-conve.html

<comment><USER2> In hundreds of convertible notes I have never seen any of these 5 supposed issues become a problem.</comment>


Can I use a non-monospaced font in either Vim or gVim? - <AUTHOR> https://vi.stackexchange.com/questions/588/can-i-use-a-non-monospaced-font-in-either-vim-or-gvim <comment><USER2> I'm surprised that most comments here are just avoiding the problem saying that nobody would want a non-monospace font in an editor, without trying to understand the original reason for this and even think about the fact that someone might be using vim a different way.

</comment><comment><USER3> For the Emacs users wanting to try this…

      M-x variable-pitch-mode

Vim users, I can assure you that Evil is a really good implementation of Vim, which happens to run in a really good environment.

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately, this requires the use of gui-emacs, while my entire emacs config is geared towards use from a terminal.

<comment><USER3> Indeed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I switched from vim full-time to using vscode with the vim plugin for most things. The plugin has gotten better over time and at this point all of my familiar bindings just work as they do in vim. Changing the font is easy.

</comment><comment> ur-whale I've never understood the attraction of non-monospaced font in an editor.

 _Especially_ when you code, where you basically read as much in the vertical direction than in the horizontal.

Monospaced fonts allows for super-fast vertical pattern matching on the code which helps your brain tremendously.

To me, non-monospaced font in an editor is exactly as if each letter in a line of text was placed at a somewhat random height, a very unpleasant experience.

<comment><AUTHOR> _" I've never understood the attraction of non-monospaced font in an editor."_

I need to use some special characters which are only available in certain proportional fonts. They are simply not available in any monospace fonts, so it's impossible for me to do what I need to do without them.

Even if those characters were available in a monospace font, I just prefer the look of some of these proportional fonts, so would prefer to use them for purely aesthetic reasons as well.

This is not for coding purposes, for which I do prefer monospace fonts, for alignment reasons. But if it was possible to get monospace-like alignment with proportional fonts, and a clear distinction between the characters 0O1l;:,.`', then I might prefer them for coding as well, since there seem to be a much greater choice of proportional fonts than monospace fonts.

On the other hand, I'm pretty happy with using Inconsolata for programming, so I'm not sure I'd switch. But it'd be nice to have the choice.

<comment> ur-whale From a comment I made below:

How much would you like to read non-monospace code with an array of colors encoded in hexadecimal ?

<comment><USER5> In many proportional fonts, numbers and certain punctuation, like "#", have the same width. In others, you can explicitly select "table figures" to get this effect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Monospaced fonts also mean monospaced puctuation. Punctuation is super important in programming languages. In human-human languages, a comma, a dot or a semicolon is mostly just icing on the cake. There are examples where it can completely change the meaning of a sentence, but for most part puctuation errors are easy to spot, meaning can be inferred and it's largely a matter of taste. In human-computer languages, a misplaced punctuation character really shakes things up.

Summary: monospaced fonts give punctuation weight equal to words, which is how it works in programming. I want non-alphanumeric characters like ,.;:`'"[]()}{!@#$^%%^*&() stand out. Notice how the left part of characters I just listed are hard to distinguish at a glance? And what if I need to count adjacent underscores, spaces or semicolons? Variable length characters are optimised for prose and human-human communication.

<comment><USER7> Nonsense. Monospaced fonts do not give punctuation weight equal to words. Fonts that give punctuation weight equal to words do. See for example the Input font family:

[http://input.fontbureau.com/](http://input.fontbureau.com/)

</comment></comment><comment> cup-of-tea One way is to use emacs and use evil-mode for vi behaviour.

I use proportional fonts for a few things in emacs. It's really nice.

<comment><USER8> It sounds counter-intuitive to use another editor, especially Emacs, but this might actually be the best advice. Emacs is on top of the game for proportional text editing, as well as the ability to make it behave very much (even exactly so) like Vim.

I'd recommend watching this talk for why: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWD1Fpdd4Pc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWD1Fpdd4Pc)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I hope not.

<comment><USER10> Why not? There are enough people that use Vim to just write prose. You don't need monospaced fonts then.

<comment><USER11> I also program in non-monospaced fonts. There is no reason not to.

<comment><USER12> No reason at all? Not saying you're wrong per se, but basically you're saying all the monospaced fonts out there used by default in a ton of code editors are there for _no reason_. Or at least not a good one. Can you elaborate?

<comment><USER13> Many programmers believe that it is impossible, or at least impractical, to code effectively in a monospaced font.

For most kinds of code, this is a mistaken belief.

You only need a monospaced font if you want to use column alignment. But it's really quite rare that column alignment is necessary. It can almost always be replaced with simple indentation.

Here's what I mean by column alignment:

      function foo(firstArgument,
                   secondArgumentFunctionCall(itsArgument,
                                              itsOtherArgument),
                   thirdArgument) {
          bar();
      }

Obviously, those arguments won't line up in a proportional font. But this kind of column alignment is a bad practice anyway. It leads to excessive line lengths, spurious VCS diffs, and is just generally fiddly.

The Rust/Servo coding guidelines formerly mandated column alignment like this. But after seeing the problems it caused in their codebase, they switched to a pure indentation style like the one I've used for many years.

The idea is simple. Stop making a distinction between statements and expressions, and instead format expressions just as you would format blocks of statements:

      function foo(
          firstArgument,
          secondArgumentFunctionCall(
              itsArgument,
              itsOtherArgument
          ),
          thirdArgument
      ) {
          bar();
      }

Once you start using this kind of format, it no longer matters whether you use a monospaced or proportional font. It doesn't even matter whether you use tabs or spaces! The notion of "tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" goes away when you don't use alignment.

I think every programmer should try using proportional fonts for a while. Even if you decide you prefer monospaced after all, it's an educational experience to see that monospaced fonts are just not necessary for most programming, and that tabs work fine once you stop using alignment.

<comment><USER14> > Many programmers believe that it is impossible, or at least impractical, to > code effectively in a monospaced font.

Your post was the very first place I've ever saw that assertion in any shape or form. I never heard anyone come close to make that assertion ever.

Moreover, modern IDEs started featuring functionalities that rely on monospace fonts, such as selecting blocks of text by both rows and columns.

You should pass off your personal opinion as your own personal opinion instead of posting baseless assertions wrapped in an unbelievable appeal to popularity.

<comment><USER13> I'm sorry, I meant to get back to you a week ago.

As pmoriarty pointed out, that was indeed a typo, and a rather embarrassing one!

The funny thing was that as I was writing that sentence, I first wrote:

"The vast majority of programmers believe..."

And then I decided to tone down the language a bit. But my initial wording would have made the typo fairly obvious. So it goes. :-)

> functionalities that rely on monospace fonts, such as selecting blocks of > text by both rows and columns.

I use that "column selection" mode with proportional fonts too. It works fine, even though the selected block has ragged right edges.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Larry Page's question in USENET about a "web robot" he was making (1996) - <AUTHOR> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.java/aSPAJO05LIU/ushhUIQQ-ogJ

<comment><USER2> A relic indeed :)</comment>


Human-Level AI Is Right Around the Corner – Or Hundreds of Years Away - <AUTHOR> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/humanlevel-ai-is-right-around-the-corner-or-hundreds-of-years-away <comment><USER2> As far as I know when we say AI today we just mean computers that perform various mathematical calculations in a way that makes it appear superficially like human reasoning. That is no where near the kind of cognition that humans or animals do and there is no reason to think we have even touched or started on machines that can do the type of cognition that humans engage in.

Computation is not cognition.

<comment><USER3> _appear superficially like human reasoning_

Exactly.

Anyone who wants to see the perfect example of this should watch Watson totally blow the Final Jeopardy question by not understanding what is the meaning of "U.S. cities". [http://techland.time.com/2011/02/16/why-did-watson- think-tor...](http://techland.time.com/2011/02/16/why-did-watson-think- toronto-is-a-u-s-city-on-jeopardy/)

Watson is a fabulous tool, but it's nothing like "the kind of cognition that humans or animals do".

<comment><USER4> One of the biggest reasons Watson is able to beat the champions so thoroughly is that it has a huge advantage in buzzer reaction timing. If that element were taken out, it would be much closer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Perspectives from some well known names here at HN (with special shout-out to my former, expert level shade throwing boss, Rod Brooks!) as part of a larger report: "Can We Copy The Brain" [http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/special- report-can-we-copy-t...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/special-report-can- we-copy-the-brain)

</comment><comment><USER5> There is no evidence at this point that we're even close to having an AGI.

<comment><USER6> Indeed. If Kurzweil and Schmidhuber want to predict the future by extrapolating a curve, they should try the one for the amount of AGI technology we have, which so far is a flat line at zero.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> or somewhere in between.</comment>


Help us, Thomas Piketty: The 1%'s sick and twisted new scheme  - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/2014/06/01/help_us_thomas_piketty_the_1s_sick_and_twisted_new_scheme/

<comment><USER2> Has it occurred to leftists and Marxists that some of us will excel in our working lives, and be rewarded appropriately? And that others will aspire to the same high living standards, but never do a job so valued in society that they'll be able to get there easily? And that there's nothing remotely unfair about that?

The answer is not regressive, protectionist trade unions, or forced wealth redistribution. The answer is to re-align people's expectations. A person who's only capable of sweeping the street will never drive a Ferrari. But there are plenty of routes out of menial work. Re-train. Re-skill. If you work hard and aspire to do better, you will do. There are countless community programmes and free training out there.

The socialist turns to wealth redistribution to make everyone equally miserable. The capitalist says: get off your ass and take responsibility for your own life, and if you do, the rewards are limitless

<comment><USER3> How is what you said related to the article?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Excellent piece</comment>


A Letter to Jamie Dimon (and anyone else trying to understand cryptocurrencies) - <AUTHOR> https://blog.chain.com/a-letter-to-jamie-dimon-de89d417cb80 <comment><USER2> A few comments: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486582](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15486582)</comment>


Amazon to be told to ditch 'guaranteed next-day delivery' claim - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/11/amazon-faces-action-by-watchdog-over-promises-it-failed-to-deliver <comment><USER2> They should at least make it easier to get a shipping refund when things arrive late - right now they make you talk to a representative in chat.

I just went through this. They really should automatically refund you when your order arrives late, they have the data to implement it (meaning, they know when something arrived late).</comment>


Amazon suspends all deliveries in France - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/AmazonNewsFR/status/1250481148209369088 <comment><USER2> It seems that a court has ordered Amazon to deliver only essential products [0], and Amazon's reaction is to suspend all deliveries.

They write in their other tweets [1] that the decision is based on (i) the fine of €1M per infraction imposed by the court, and (ii) the risk of contravening the decision being high due to complex logistics.

[0] [https://www.bbc.com/news/world- europe-52285301](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52285301) [1] [https://twitter.com/AmazonNewsFR/status/1250481151313154048](https://twitter.com/AmazonNewsFR/status/1250481151313154048)

<comment><USER3> Interesting that the BBC says the fine is €1M per day while Amazon says it is €1M per infraction. Which is it?

<comment><USER4> From what I understood it's both :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Translations:

Top twitter comment from Amazon: Following the decision of the court on 14th April, we (Amazon Inc) have to temporarily suspend activity in our distribution centers.

Decision from the court, in a screenshot few comments below: We order Amazon Inc to evaluate work-related risks inherent to the covid-19 pandemic, across all its warehouses and to put in place measures expected by article L4121-1 from labor laws (not sure what's in this article)... we order Amazon, until the above measures are put in place and within 24h of being notified of this decision, to restrict warehouse activity to reception of merchandises, preparation and shipping of food items, hygiene items and medical supplies, otherwise it will be subject to a fine of 1M EUR per day late and per infraction.

[https://twitter.com/AmazonNewsFR/status/1250481148209369088](https://twitter.com/AmazonNewsFR/status/1250481148209369088)

[https://twitter.com/BlaisePere/status/1250522103952158722/ph...](https://twitter.com/BlaisePere/status/1250522103952158722/photo/1)

</comment><comment><USER6> How big is Amazon compared to FNAC/Darty, Cdiscount and co? Personally I have never ordered anything there because

\- when it comes to books, they are not cheaper than at my local bookshop, in fact they are often more expensive.

\- for home appliances, I always prefer buying things sold directly by the platform and not a third party seller or dropshiper, unless it's something used, but then I use ebay.

\- I don't care about one day delivery, personally, I'm fine with waiting.

\- For some reason, I hate the UI I find confusing and way too busy. Even that monstrosity that is Cdiscount UI feels easier to browse.

So what are the advantages of using Amazon in France compared to other platforms? cheaper delivery fees? better customer service? or having the convenience to be able to buy anything at the same place?

<comment><AUTHOR> I might be in a bubble, but Amazon seems to be the first store people around me go to. Unless fnac or Darty have a big discount.

For me its the return policy and warranty, I had to deal with other platforms such as cdiscount and fnac before and will never go back there.

<comment><USER7> Amazon is first retail app in iOS store for months maybe years. In the G7 Amazon beat Alibaba in all markets.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This clearly shows why Amazon needs to be broken up. To allow a company to disrupt and disband local supply chains and then try to strong arm governments is very dangerous.

Walmart is known as a town killer. Amazon is an industry killer.

<comment><USER9> What would you break up Amazon into?

<comment><USER8> Platform, Supplier, AWS, Shipping to start.

<comment><USER10> How would that benefit the current situation at all?

<comment><USER8> It would level the playing field and enable a lot of competition. For example, is it fair the Amazon the platform as access to all the data about good selling products, pricing information, and can dictate to a selling what they are allowed to sell something for (i.e. you cannot sell a product cheaper on your own website if you sell it on Amazon), but then at the same time takes that data and then comes out with am Amazon Basic clone to then undercut you as a the seller? The seller that already had to take a price cut/profit margin cut to be on Amazon? Having them be both the platform and the seller is bad for industry. You the seller and giving them free market research only to sell at a disadvantage to them because they are the gateway to the platform, product, shipping. The have slowly strangled industry and in the case of France now want to take their ball and go home when we are dealing with a global emergency.

<comment> twitch-chat That's how the industry has always worked. Walmart, Costco, supermarkets, clothing stores, pharmacies, etc, all have their own brand of products that they sell on their own stores along with other brands that use their competitor's infrastructure to sell their products. Usually the store's brand is also cheaper.

Why is it an issue with Amazon?

<comment><USER8> All those stores do not mandate the prices you can sell your product for outside of their premises.

<comment> twitch-chat If true then we should start with legislation to disallow platforms from mandating competitor's pricing if they also sell products in their own platform.

It seems like a good starting solution without having to go for the nuclear option.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think Amazon is prioritizing based on product category. That's entirely reasonable given the size of their catalog.

The problem is, any single category will have any number of non-essential items along with the essential ones. Case-in-point was a D*ldo just mentioned by John Oliver on Last Week Tonight that Amazon is shipping. As I understand it, sex toys are categorised under "Health and Personal Care" (or something similar) so it makes sense that this category is still shipping with priority.

Side note: I think there's a valid (no doubt controversial) argument that while sex toys are not "essential", they are indeed helpful at time when everyone is confined to their homes for literally months on end. But that's another debate.

</comment><comment><USER12> This will be a boon for their competitors

<comment><USER13> More like a big ad for them, because everyone is going to hate the state here, when there is one more month of lockdown and many people rely on amazon for distraction.

Also, there is no "real" competitor, and even if there was they would also need to limit their offerings the same way.

<comment><USER14> Jokes on them, the French never stopped hating the state in the first place.

<comment><USER15> Next Amazon will build up a monopoly on Guillotines.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Profit above all else.

<comment><USER17> Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Good. Much `Customer Obsession` wow.

France will be just fine and Amazon's competitors will be more than happy to get the business. Hopefully this would be a good example for everyone considering Amazon as being 'essential'. I personally cancelled Prime 3 years ago and have not ordered anything from Amazon since (I live in the US). Very ballsy move by Amazon. The world would get a glimpse of an Amazon-free economy and maybe they'll be inspired.

</comment><comment><USER19> It is only fair. If other businesses that are selling items which are "non essential " and have to close, it would not be fair for amazon to continue since they will have an advantage. Here in South Africa regulations were put in place so online and physical both have the same regulations applied. Therefore online stores do not get undue advantage.

It forced the e-commerce companies to make quick changes and they were able to get it done in a few days. all non essential items cannot be added to your cart. Even Uber eats added functionality to get essential items delivered.</comment>


Justice demands 1.3M IP addresses related to Trump resistance site - <AUTHOR> http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-claims-doj-requesting-info-on-visitors-to-anti-trump-website <comment><USER2> Existing discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011636)

<comment><USER3> Thanks, we've moved the comments there.</comment></comment>


Zuckerberg Dilemma: I do the programming, but the guy w/ the idea gets 50% - <AUTHOR>

I'm a Data Scientist at a large research lab. In my spare time, and to augment my work I develop Django+Python webapps.
I go to lots of Hackathons and regularly meet people with good ideas. We often bounce these ideas around a Google Doc and it gets to the point at which development must start. However, 99.9% of the time, the other person has no programming or technical knowledge whatsoever. They also want half the business, despite the fact that I'm the one doing all the work, pulling the long nights of coding in.
I call this the "Zuckerberg Dilemma" as its rather like Zuck and the Winklevoss twins. He did the development, they had the idea, then complained that he took it to develop by himself.
- Does anyone else have this problem?
- How did you deal with it?
- Is it illegal to just "walk off" with someone's idea? <comment><USER2> _They also want half the business, despite the fact that I'm the one doing all the work, pulling the long nights of coding in._

No, you aren't, not if you're planning to build a real business out of it. In addition to simply having "the idea" somebody has to talk to customers, solicit feedback, do market research, evaluate and establish pricing, develop a marketing strategy, write datasheets, whitepapers, blog entries, press- releases, etc., somebody has to talk to journalists and manage PR, somebody has to track down and woo investors (if you decide to seek outside money), somebody has to __sell __the damn thing to somebody, somebody has to do the legwork of tracking down partners, resellers, and possible "joint venture" participants, somebody has to file the legal paperwork to create a legal entity for your venture, open a bank account, get a DUNS number, get a EIN number, etc., and etc., etc., etc...

No, the programmer really is not doing "all the work". NOW, it may be the case that the erstwhile partner who is wanting to work with you can't (or won't) do all of the things listed above. Fine, in that case, if they can't code and they aren't putting in any money, don't work with them. But you should probably know whether or not they are a coder, or a _legitimate_ "business person" (as opposed to "Just an idea guy") before you spend any substantial time working with them in the first place. These are questions to ask up front.

Keep in mind though, that the non-coder has plenty of value to bring to the table (and if they don't provide any of these things, walk away): connections with customers, connections with investors, deep domain expertise, marketing / positioning / biz development knowledge, sales closing ability, etc., etc.

 _\- Does anyone else have this problem?_

I don't think the problem you are describing even exists, as such. The whole premise seems rooted in a lack of awareness of the importance of all the "other stuff" besides coding that goes into building a business.

 _\- How did you deal with it?_

See above. I'm a developer who has forced himself to walk on the "business side of the fence" the past few years exactly because we don't have that "business guy" to lean on. So I'm not just talking out my ass here... I've learned first hand, this stuff is fracking _hard_ and is easily just as much work as the coding and is just as important.

 _\- Is it illegal to just "walk off" with someone's idea?_

Depends on a lot of details, most likely. But it's somewhat of a dick move, whether it's legal or not.

<comment><USER3> Excellent response! Just to briefly add on, in the initial building of a product, website, or whatever it is, the programmer may be doing most of the work to get that prototype or beta version built. HOWEVER, if the idea is going to be executed successfully, the person with the initial idea will most likely be doing his/her share of grunt work whether that be in researching the target market, developing an initial business plan, or meeting customers.

 __Conclusion: One person programs, the other focuses on sales and the business operations. It's the perfect combination so as long as both put in their due diligence.

<comment><USER4> So the guy with idea does nothing until first MVP is built. Does his or her work really begin once MVP proved its worth ? It looks like technical guy can be 100% busy building the MVP while the guy with idea can explore other opportunities at the same time.

<comment><USER5> No. The idea is for the "business" guy to do his stuff before, during, and after development.

<comment><USER4> what sort of things business guy do before and during the development ? I would like learn more about it.

<comment><USER3> Ok so before the development, there is obviously the idea. Ideas aren't normally just thought of out of nowhere...they usually come in the form of a solution to an existing problem. So there you have some thinking behind what a possible solution is (pre development). This person (x) then must think about what the best way to go about the solution is--is it mainly going to be done through a mobile application, website, or product? From there, x must do his/her due diligence is determining whether or not the idea has been done before and the general feasibility behind the idea. FINALLY s/he approaches a developer (y) about creating an MVP. Person y doesn't just blindly do the MVP --x must sell y on the idea and the way they will execute it. This is all pre- development.

Now let's assume y agrees. While y is building the MVP, x has to be making initial plans as to what to do with this MVP-- apply to an accelerator, go straight to investors, go to potential customers/clients to try and gain initial business, etc. Whether it is in the form of an application or a pitch, there is a lot of work and strategic thinking that has to go into these crucial initial stages. Work is being done on both ends at all times, or at least this must be the case if any combination of founders want to succeed.

X forms the business strategy, Y develops. If both do their due diligence, there is a great foundation there that is built for success.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The HN conventional wisdom:

People who only contribute ideas are losers and even bouncing ideas around is probably a waste of your time. Actually partnering with such a person sounds like a total waste of time. There's much more to making something work than just the idea and the code — who's going to do the "business" stuff like marketing or customer development? If you want to do that part yourself (patio11 style) then you don't need a partner. If you don't just want to do the programming, find a business partner who you trust and who has skills then start brainstorming ideas.

<comment><USER2> _People who only contribute ideas are losers and even bouncing ideas around is probably a waste of your time. Actually partnering with such a person sounds like a total waste of time._

Indeed. I think it's very important to distinguish between "just an idea" guy and an actual valuable "business guy". J. Random Stranger off the street with the idea of "Pinterest + Basecamp For Dogs With Lyme Disease" is one thing... an experienced sales/marketing executive with deep connections, domain knowledge and real world experience in a domain relevant to the idea, is a whole different ballgame.

Of course, that's not to say that a person would have to have been a VP at a Fortune 500 to be a "real business person". But they would at least need some baseline business know-how and a _willingness_ to dive in and learn marketing, branding, positioning, PR, customer development, etc., etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> @Matthew No offence but it's because of people like you, non technical people are hated.And no, i am not an idea man.

There is a damn difference between someone who throws an idea at you and walks away for a couple of months until you finish and someone who has a really a good idea yet he is totally dedicated and working side-by-side with you for the product to work, also willing to learn anything in order to help the company grow.

Why do you complain about the percentage?You want 100% or 120%?Come on!If he is not dedicated at all you don't work with him otherwise don't complain.Not to mention that you want to take the idea and walk away with it!So this is not a shitty idea then.Yet again, you want more and more %.

You need to understand that the execution of the idea is definitely important but if you don't have it, there is nothing to execute, ok?The road is idea>execution>business not execution>idea>business etc.So no (great) idea = no execution, no execution = no business.Either way, you must have an idea to start with.Besides, we don't know the real story.Maybe he asks for 50% so you don't eff him up later on and you showed us you are capable of many things.I wouldn't work with you if you ask me. You're money driven not passion driven.

There is no "Zuckerberg Dilemma".Mark stole the idea and improved it in time.

</comment><comment><USER7> 'Idea guys' are common, and almost universally not worth dealing with. If idea guys provided value, why are all the job postings for developers? Why isn't Microsoft trying to H1-B idea guys from India?

This is _not_ to say all non-tech people are worthless. Look for someone with domain specific knowledge and connections. Someone who has a plan to contribute more than just an idea.

<comment><USER8> From Peter Thiels startup class [http://blakemasters.com/post/22405055017/peter-thiels- cs183-...](http://blakemasters.com/post/22405055017/peter-thiels- cs183-startup-class-9-notes-essay) "A software engineer at Oracle with 4-6 years experiences gets a $105k salary and an $8k bonus. But a sales manager with 4-6 years experiences gets $112k and a $103k bonus. The situation is very much the same at Google, which claims to be extremely engineering driven; at a $96k base, $86k in commissions, and a $40k bonus, Google salespeople earn quite a bit more than their engineering counterparts."

A real "Business Guy" can bring tremendous value to a team & many company's pay them more because products don't sell them selves, you need to create a distribution channel.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's not a fun situation, but there's an obvious answer: come to grips with the fact that the idea is valuable. More specifically, it is just as valuable as you and the rest of the world make it. Negotiate. If there is a project you really want to be involved in because the other person has a really great idea, then you should be prepared to let that person keep more of the company and, by the same token, accept a smaller share for your own work. Think of the opportunity to be involved at all as its own form of compensation. By contrast, of course, many ideas will be only somewhat interesting. In cases like that, it makes sense to value your time more highly in comparison to the idea and be prepared to walk away if the idea guy wants too big a piece of the pie.

</comment><comment><USER10> Others have argued that there's no room for the idea guy: [http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2188-theres-no-room-for- the-i...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2188-theres-no-room-for-the-idea-guy)

I don't necessary agreed 100%, but a good read.

<comment><USER4> It depends how much work went into finding the idea. Some niche ideas could be really valuable in itself if it comes from the person's first hand experience and frustration.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's perfectly legal to use someone-else's idea, but it is a bit of a jerk move take someones idea and walk off with it.

Just be upfront about it from the beginning - agree at the start of the weekend that anything (ideas or code) that is made over the weekend goes into the public domain (or alternatively everyone in the team gets a non-exclusive licence to do whatever they want with it.

Alternatively find your own ideas or find a co-founder who brings equal value to the table.

</comment><comment><USER12> Just walk off with it.

 _Family, religion, friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business. --Montgomery Burns_

</comment><comment><USER13> Personally, I'd talk openly with him about this and a real division of labor.

If he is willing to put in equity and you're willing to put in sweat equity, for instance, a 50% split can be reached. If he's not willing to put in either, drop him.

If you can, offer to buy him out for whatever you think the idea is worth. If not, go your own way.

</comment><comment><USER14> I used to think like this when I did my first startup as a technical co- founder.

But in the end, I worked less hours, travelled less and spent more time with my family than the idea co-founder who marketed and ultimately got us the sales to continue.

</comment><comment><USER15> A startup is not its code, just like an auto manufacturer is not its factories.

</comment><comment><USER16> Unless the idea is novel and non-obvious and sufficiently detailed for a person of ordinary skill in the art to make and use it; or you have signed some sort of agreement. You can do what you want.

</comment><comment><USER17> Have you tried discussing the stake with them? What's their response when you tell them you'll be doing most of the work?</comment>


Entrepreneurs: Hire a Lawyer - <AUTHOR> http://www.centernetworks.com/hiring-a-lawyer <comment><USER2> Obviously, having a lawyer who you have worked with and trust is essential in negotiating term sheets (and, even more obviously, actual funding agreements), because each one of them is different and because you are negotiating with another party who can and will try to insert provisions that you may not understand but which are severely disadvantageous to you. I also agree with Founders Agreements, since these will matter most when things go worst.

But legal incorporation docs? Employee agreements? I honestly see no reason not to recycle the same ones that we used for my previous venture. Of course, if you already have a lawyer on board than they should be reviewing all your legal agreements, but if you've just started out and want to incorporate before you've found a good lawyer, can anyone explain why you should wait?

<comment><USER3> You can certainly recycle incorporation papers, etc. You can also bear the brunt of the legal problems that may arise if those documents are defective.

I think one really has to understand the legal implications of forming a corporation (what you can and cannot do, what you will and will not be liable for) before one can accurately assess the necessity of having a lawyer handle that task. Lawyers don't make money filing papers; they make money suing people who screwed up the paperwork.</comment></comment>


How America's Epic Eclipse Will Impact Our Electric Grid - <AUTHOR> http://gizmodo.com/will-america-s-epic-eclipse-impact-our-electric-grid-1797407747 <comment><AUTHOR> I changed the title to make it a little less click-baity. Hope that's OK.</comment>


Is Google turning Gmail into an App platform? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.stunf.com/email-as-a-platform

<comment><USER2> GMail already _is_ a platform; look at Mailbox.app -- it's a new UI for the GMail "platform". Building on top of the GMail platform obviates the need to actually do any of the grungy mail stuff. But as one commenter noted elsewhere in this thread, the lock-in implications are pretty sobering.

We made Inky from scratch -- without building on top of GMail, Outlook, etc. -- partly to avoid the lock-in, but primarily because it's hard to imagine fundamentally changing the email user experience without touching any of the code for the mail platform itself. The downside, of course, is the usual trade-off: by not layering on top of somebody else's already-debugged stack, we have to make our _own_ huge raft of code work right.

The analogy to Lotus Notes should be a wake-up call to CIOs everywhere; our analysis of the enterprise email/messaging space makes it clear that the big companies still using Lotus Notes are doing so primarily because they have too much investment in the Notes ecosystem ("intranet web sites" built on top of Notes, etc.) to switch. They come up with an internal estimate of the cost to convert all the stuff they've built on the Lotus platform over to something else and realize that figure exceeds the likely N-year savings from switching. So, conversion project not approved by CFO. Next!

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point about the link to Lotus Notes. However, infrastructure decisions are usually made for short term reasons, and that's often an OK trade-off.

Inky looks awesome, by the way.

<comment><USER2> Thanks. We're still beta-ish, but getting there. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I am skeptical. There are apps out there extending Gmail's possibilities, already. Look at Streak (<http://streak.com>), look at Right Inbox (<http://rightinbox.com>). They are based on Chrome extensions. People use them if they need. The real trouble is Gmail becoming a bulky web app in time. Sending money, now actions in the Inbox. Lots of features, majority will not use. It is unclear, if Gmail will remain an simple email platform (which was the initial idea) or Google's promotion/enforcement ground.

<comment><USER4> I use one of the other Chrome extensions extending GMail: <http://www.activeinboxhq.com/>. It works well.

The one thing Google will need to address is GMail's memory usage - it's bad enough on its own, but once you start adding extensions to it... I no longer keep GMail open unless absolutely necessary.

[Edit: link corrected]

<comment><USER5> should that link be to <http://www.activeinboxhq.com/> ?

<comment><USER4> Thanks, I've corrected it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For once, the answer to the title isn't obviously "no."

Can you imagine Gmail as the new Lotus Notes? Specially as third-party vendors flock in to fill the gaps? The potential for lock-in is absolutely dizzying; moving away from Gmail once you have your whole workflow automated would feel like going back to punch cards.

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly. pg has also written about "using your email as a todo list" (in Startup Ideas We'd Like to Fund) to partially address the problem of email being more than just a dumb box for all incoming information. Email as it exists today is very obviously broken, and very few players are in a position to change it. (Although there must be some startups with the frighteningly ambitious plan to replace email as we know it today.)

Of course it remains to be seen whether this is just a first move by Google towards a big goal or whether Google is just playing with new Gmail functionality to see what happens.

<comment><USER7> Email is only broken from the authentification point of view. The idea of using email for every need is broken.

<comment><USER8> Agreed. Do we really want Gmail to be a great operating system lacking only a decent mail client? What is this, emacs 2.0?

And so what if people are using it differently then how it was originally intended? Give me a well designed tool, and I'll use it in 930294 ways it wasn't indented to be. That doesn't mean I'm going to like the new super- multi-purpose swiss army knife version of that tool.... Keep it simple stoopid, get off my lawn, not in my back yard, go unix, etc etc </curmudgeony old person rant>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Great read, and I'm expecting this to happen sooner too.

Think it something like -- the core-emailing is there within gmail, but extend the functionalities via services. Some external app uses to build services on top of emailing.

Something like -- Hootsuite on top of twitter, Hootsuite manages and adds value by its own apps.

Think: we have Gmail powered apps? A link on top like: my-installed-apps -- to easily navigate and find newer apps for your workflows.

<comment><USER10> I'm working on stuff like this but from the ground up. You can't get any meaningful innovation until you can allow people/devs a way to access the system at a deeper level than Gmail will allow.

<comment><USER9> Yeah agreed. I remember the saying -- Be a bitch yourself, but don't be someone else's bitch. :)

Build and think platforms and API's. Not consume API's :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'd love for another company to come out that has the clean interface and reliability of gmail, with even more security and better customer service. This is a great time for a disruptor.

Any company can compete with many Google products if they have a product that is almost as good, if not better, with way better customer service.

<comment><USER12> How much would you pay for that? I ask, because Google is doing this for free...

<comment><USER13> I'd pay $10 a month if it meant I had a phone number to call if something went wrong.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> What ever happened to "If it ain't broken, don't fix it"? Every product doesn't need to be constantly re-inventing itself.

What most people want from Gmail is a sleek, reliable and fast email client. The Google+ integration is already annoying enough, please stop bloating it with more features.

</comment><comment><USER15> Makes sense from Google's POV. Separating 'Gmail the email client' from 'Gmail the IMAP/POP/SMTP server', the latter requires a lot of investment with not much return. It seems that most of the value to Google comes from you using their client, since they can:

* show more contextual advertising

* track you as you travel around the web (since you're more likely to be logged in)

* use other Google services - especially Google+

So by adding proprietary features that only mean anything when viewed within Gmail itself, it's a big win for them. Also, once people become used to the microdata, they can gradually reuse it in other Google services. For example - complete a Google form straight from an email, that then does something special on an App Engine product.

</comment><comment><USER16> What this shows is that Google has given up on product improvements for features. Instead of solving the inbox problem, they are selling "priority emails, now with bigger flames!".

The email problem isn't figuring out what the sender wants me to do with each message, it's figuring out what I want to do. This is e-junkmail and has less to do with making the recipient's life better and more to do with advertising.

Pop-up blocker for email, anyone?

</comment><comment><USER10> From the original announcement [1]:

 _"Today, we are introducing schemas in emails to make messages more interactive and allow developers to deliver a slice of their apps to users' inboxes.

Schemas in emails can be used to represent various types of entities and actions. Email clients that understand schemas, such as Gmail, can render entities and actions defined in the messages with a consistent user interface."_

I haven't looked into this in any depth but it doesn't necessarily seem Gmail specific (a good thing) but it does mean even more clicky buttons in an interface where I can't easily see what those buttons actually do (less good from a security/phishing standpoint).

[1] [http://googleappsdeveloper.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/introducin...](http://googleappsdeveloper.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/introducing- actions-in-inbox-powered-by.html)

<comment><USER17> That may be why they've made it a partner-only program, and why they control the interface for rendering each schema (that they specifically choose to support). While frustrating, it's an interesting point to consider.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Hmm. With Google canning Reader, it removes the only reason I had left to remain logged in, since I use a desktop email client. (Re Reader: I've moved to Inoreader, a clone which is still a little rough around the edges, but if it hangs around, it's a great replacement).

Gmail, as an email client, has always just been adequate. It isn't reliable at notifying me of incoming mails without the installation of extra software or downgrading to Chrome. And the real killer, it doesn't support multiple accounts in anything like a usable way.

I'm putting "logged in Google" in the same box as Facebook, and only using it in a separate browser.

<comment><USER19> Which desktop client do yo use ? I'd like to do the same but I know I will miss Gmail's thread formatting. I know there is a plugin for Thunderbird but it's not as great.

<comment><USER18> Something old-school - Forte Agent. It can do thread formatting like a newsgroup, but it isn't perfect - e.g. it sorts the threads by the timestamp of the root of the conversation, rather than most recent message.

I particularly like its identity support.

I can't stand Thunderbird.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Users should be encouraged to click on less things in their email, not more. Phishers, and other malicious actors will

</comment><comment><USER20> Email is getting old with all the social platforms. I dont send email anymore to my friends. They have to evolve along</comment>


Data structures and algorithms interview questions and their solutions - <AUTHOR> https://techiedelight.quora.com/500-Data-Structures-and-Algorithms-practice-problems-and-their-solutions?__filter__&__nsrc__=2&__snid3__=1594232728&share=1 <comment><USER2> Didn't most of us get in to this mathsy line of work precisely because we didn't need to memorise a load of stuff and could just work things out from first principles as and when required?

<comment><USER3> I don't like coding interviews, but this list is for practice, not memorization. Ideally you could solve all of these from first principles.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If this isn't a metaphor for the programming interview I don't know what is: [http://www.techiedelight.com/multiply-two-numbers-without- us...](http://www.techiedelight.com/multiply-two-numbers-without-using- multiplication-operator-loops/)

"Implement multiplication without using loops."

"Uh, okay. What do you mean by loops?"

"Don't use a conditional loop."

"What do you mean by a conditional loop?"

"Oh, you know, the standard definition."

Time passes.

"I'm stuck. What is the answer?"

"Oh, you just have a loop on b dividing it by 2 using shift operators until it is zero."

"Wait a minute, you said you couldn't use loops."

"Did I? Ah, well."

Hackerrank/leetcode exercises are written the same way. So many times that a problem asks "Output the indexes of two numbers in the array such that their sum is K" and you write your code and the website says "INCORRECT! You said [3,6] but the right answer was [6,3]". Addition is commutative! The two are equal! And both right!

<comment><USER5> The real way to multiply without loops is to use a lookup table, or unroll the (fixed iteration) shift-and-add loop.

That page is both hilarious and sad at the same time. Hilarious because the second "solution" clearly has a loop, and sad because sites like those don't really help anyone. Some of the pages on that site are downright _WTF_ s:

[http://www.techiedelight.com/generate-binary- numbers-1-n/](http://www.techiedelight.com/generate-binary-numbers-1-n/)

<comment><USER6> >"or unroll the (fixed iteration) shift-and-add loop"

Can you elaborate on this? I understand the shifting but didn't understand the "loop unrolling fixed iteration part"

<comment><USER5> The shift-and-add algorithm for multiplication is usually implemented as a loop that iterates for the number of bits of the operand, so e.g. for an 8-bit x 8-bit multiplication, the loop runs 8 times. (An "early out" algorithm when one of the operands becomes 0 is also common, but let's not complicate things here.) It's trivial to unroll this loop into the 8 individual shift-and-add steps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Most interview questions are ridiculous and don't test for the knowledge a candidate should have. When I interview, I ask a system design problem that involves using an inverted index, a bst, understanding how to normalize data, and then being a little clever when merging some data. It tests fundamental concepts in the context of building a working solution to a meaningful problem.

I never understood why anyone would ask say DP questions in an interview. We don't use that in 99.9% of software (I've never once in my career found a use case). What you're really testing is whether or not the candidate had enough time to refresh that material. Worse still, it involves a very rigid solution pattern that's over-specified to that class of problem and tells you nothing about what you want to know: can a candidate synthesize concepts to devise a solution to problems we actually encounter?

</comment><comment><USER8> I'd rather just not interview at companies that have these kinds of interviews and save myself the hassle.

</comment><comment><USER9> Sadly, the code examples all seem to be in C++ ... not exactly the ideal language for pedagogy.

<comment><USER10> They have stuff like bit manipulations and the likes, C++ makes sense for those.

<comment><USER11> Doesn't virtually every programming language have operators for bit manipulation?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> If anyone asks these questions without a particular scenario to actually deal with in the course of the position you're interviewing for, you are in for some bullshit at that company. This has become all too common at the major corporations sadly.

</comment><comment><USER13> Am I stupid or do both of the solutions to the problem

"Replace each element of array with product of every other element without using / operator"

use the / operator?

My solution would involve summing the log() of the values in the array.

<comment><USER14> There was just a post on HN to a site that went over this exact problem. Essentially, you do two linear scans to calculate the product of every number before an index, and to calculate the product of every number after an index. Then, for each index, the answer is just multiplying those two numbers you found for that index.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> That's a great list worthy of study in any context.

<comment><USER16> I agree. I studied these sorts of questions through hackerrank, leetcode, etc. and became a better programmer. That said, I wouldn't want to work somewhere where they asked me to find a "zero sum sub array" in an interview</comment></comment>


A Better Way to Add a 'selected' Class to Links in Rails - <AUTHOR> http://viget.com/extend/rails-selected-nav-link-helper

<comment><USER2> Sometimes the best solution is a function, not a class. This seems like one of those times.</comment>


Dylan Beattie and the Linebreakers – Monads (Live at NDC Oslo 2019) - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoJGIqyriCc <comment><AUTHOR> ft Don Syme

(any HN'ers lucky enough to have successfully used the pickup line at 3:05?)</comment>


If you're in Melbourne Australia, you should come join us at today's YC meetup - <AUTHOR>

The original post for this event is here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=849668
It feels rather frivoulous given the terrible news of the passing of Dan Haubert, so I hope that amongst the joviality, we can spare a thought for Dan's family and friends and reflect a little on the menace that is depression.
The weather in Melbourne is fabulous and we're expecting a turnout of at least 30-40 people.
The hashtag for today is ycmelb - http://search.twitter.com/search?q=ycmelb.  Should be plenty of tweets and pics through the afternoon.
I'm heading in now... <comment><USER2> Awesome, thanks for organizing this. I'll be there in 40 minutes (missed the original post)---hope someone's still around!

</comment><comment><USER3> Today was great, thanks to Tom, Fenn and Ned for organising. Hope there's another in the not too distant future.

</comment><comment><USER4> Very nice event, hope more coming soon.</comment>


Ask HN: How do I create a copy of this website? - <AUTHOR>

I am trying to create a site very similar to http://goo.gl/sYicsA and I am having trouble knowing if such template already exists to purchase.
Also I wonder what you can use to create such type of shopping website?
I am only looking for self hosted solutions.
More importantly I am looking for a template that looks like that site. <comment><USER2> Finding the exact template is always quite hard, best is to find the closest looking template and edit the CSS accordingly. Here's the closest match I found : [http://goo.gl/NlmtDH](http://goo.gl/NlmtDH)

<comment><AUTHOR> is it possible to clone a websites template?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Prestashop is self hosted. Check out the demo [1].

There are other solutions too - Magento, WP-eCommerce...

[1]: [http://demo.prestashop.com/en/?view=front](http://demo.prestashop.com/en/?view=front)

</comment><comment><USER4> You probably won't find a theme that's exactly the same. You should look at themes that have functionality you would like to use (sliders etc) & just style it yourself if possible.

+1 for Shopify.

</comment><comment><USER5> Try Shopify.</comment>


Anyone on the same itenerary as a person with TSA Precheck also gets Precheck - <AUTHOR> https://arring.net/tsa-precheck/ <comment><USER2> PreCheck can be given two separate ways - one is via the the public program (what you do when you enroll) the other is via the airline basically saying "yeah, this person is frequent enough that we don't think they are a problem" or they are traveling with someone who doesn't trip any of our flags.

There is a cost that the airline takes (I've never heard exactly what it is) for each person they refer to the TSA as pre-cleared, which I assume means there is a separate lookup against TSA lists, etc. It's at the discretion of the carrier. United does it all the time, Delta somewhat, and Southwest almost never in my experience.

So: a) Airlines can suggest pre-clearing you. b) There is some sort of match that the TSA also does. c) But just spend the money and get the full list.

Almost all security is doctrine and kabuki theater. 9/11's big problem wasn't security screening, it was that the doctrine of hijackings at that point was that the threat was hostages and negotiation, and therefore the best thing to do was to comply with hijacker demands.

<comment><USER3> The third way is automatic enrollment via certain security clearances.

<comment><USER2> Yep. Not as cloak and dagger is just getting Global Entry, which also covers TSA: Pre. Even better is that some European countries reciprocate, and you can use expedited lanes going through customs.

<comment><USER4> Nexus is even better: $50 gets you all 3 programs for 5 years.

<comment><USER5> Yes! Nexus is the magical trusted traveler program that few people know about because all the enrollment centers are only found at Canadians airports and land crossings near the Canadian border. Only U.S./Canadian citizens + permanent residents qualify however.

It is so much better than Global Entry and TSA Precheck in that you get both of those AND Nexus (which even works like Precheck for domestic Canadian flights!) for $10/year.

<comment><USER6> Global Entry also lets you access the Canadian domestic trusted traveler lines, FWIW.

<comment><USER7> Was a nice surprise when I last flew out of YYZ. Although had to have the Global Entry card on hand. Almost wasn't going to carry it with me since its not all that useful when flying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> TSA screenings don't protect anyone from anything[0]; they are pure security theater and a great way to control the flow of people around the USA. TSA PreCheck is simply a revenue stream for the TSA.

[0] [https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest- undercover-...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/tsa-fails-tests-latest-undercover- operation-us-airports/story?id=51022188)

<comment><USER9> I'm not sure that's a secret to anybody, but it's worth $20/yr for me to be treated like a normal human. It's absolute extortion and it's reprehensible but I fly too much to take a stand.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> TSA precheck is not about security- it's about allowing the privileged, wealthy, etc to not have to wait in line with everyone else. It's one of many "pay for access" systems growing around us today.

$20 per ride toll lanes on the highways. "Express pass" at the amusement park. Global Entry at US Customs. They're all just more ways of saying that the rich don't need to wait around with the plebians.

<comment><USER11> _All_ congested systems ration access. Price is a pretty straightforward way to handle rationing. It's not very interesting or novel to notice that a lot of systems ration this way.

<comment><USER12> It's a bit weird when _governments_ do it, though, especially for matters of "security" (or in the case of Global Entry, actual security!) There's a bit of a difference between waiting in line at Walt Disney World and having to go through customs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Of course the number of terrorists trying to do something on domestic flights is vanishingly small.

there were 631 million people flying in 2010, for example (I did a quick google, I'm sure there are more up to date numbers somewhere). There were 6 terrorist incidents in the US, per wikipedia. Of those 1 involved a plane, which wasn't a passenger jet.

Now, maybe all the security theater is keeping terrorists from trying to do something, but given the fact that terrorists are blowing up markets and other buildings in iraq and nothing would really prevent that, I'd say the number of terrorists in the US is just incredibly small.

But yeah, it's amazing that the US government can treat everyone as a suspicious individual, get them to pay to not be as big of a suspect, given how little terrorism there actually is.

We spend billons of dollars on terrorism that could probably save a lot more lives applied to things like safer cars or reducing medical mistakes.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have a friend who is ineligible for PreCheck due to prior criminal history, and he has had the same thing happen to him. His wife got PreCheck and suddenly every time he flew with her he got it also.

Having known him and his family for years, he's not a security risk at all but it still seems like that probably shouldn't happen. Especially if the individual is already disqualified for PreCheck.

<comment><USER15> I guess the mistake here is thinking that PreCheck provides any kind of additional security. Best I can tell it's a way to bribe the TSA to remove some of the inconvenience of going through their security checkpoints.

<comment><USER16> IIRC, specifically because wealthy people are much more likely to kick up a scandal when mistreated, because they've learned to expect better. This lets them weed out most of the complainers without actually having to improve their policies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> TSA precheck is one of those things I should use my credit card to be reimbursed on. I fly sporadically, mostly within the continental US, and once had a very uncomfortable search by a TSA agent.

A guy put on gloves, fondled my balls, my butt cheeks, hell he put his hands inside my pants and went to town (luckily no finger in my butt, I don't think I would have handled that well). I stayed pissed at this molestation for weeks afterwards, and I would be surprised if the government hasn't exempted itself from lawsuits and lawmakers from this shitstain process.

I'm a naturalized citizen, I vote for anyone who even hints at reigning in the TSA, DHS, ICE, etc. Please do the same.

<comment><USER18> "Reigning in" means something completely different than what you intended! ("Reining in" is what you wanted.)

<comment><USER17> Thanks, much appreciated! English is not my first language but after some time complacency has definitely settled in and this one is so subtle I never would've known!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> All Pre tells me is that everyone else is going through more "security" than even the TSA deems necessary for absolutely no reason. I refuse to enroll in it mainly because of that.

</comment><comment><USER20> The problem with pre-check and things like it is that it exempts those who would otherwise complain the loudest and have the political clout to get the system changed ie: politicians, frequent business travelers etc...

</comment><comment><USER21> Doesn't work all the time. I have it, but my wife doesn't; we were both denied precheck on one pair of flights. Maybe this is how they incentivize us to get it for her too.

EDIT: typo

<comment><USER22> I had an agent once tell me that "you only get pre 80% of the time". So I just paid for a chance at precheck?

<comment><USER23> In quite a few years of having it, I've never "missed" on Pre except when flying a non-participating overseas airline from a US origin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Security theater, my friends...

</comment><comment><USER25> hasn't worked for me on the last several trips on Southwest. (I'm PreCheck, my wife isn't; same itinerary.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I have seen this not work on Alaska as well. Def works on United though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> If anyone has an American Express platinum credit card, Amex will reimburse you for Global Entry or TSA Precheck. You get Precheck automatically with Global Entry so I'd recommend opting for Global Entry. It also lasts for a few years. The Amex Plat has a pretty hefty annual fee but comes with a bunch of perks like an annual $200 airline credit, access to airport lounges, and more. Totally worth opening for the points and perks and then downgrading imo.

</comment><comment><USER27> Is there a comprehensive list of the programs (Tsa pre, global entry, nexus, whatever) with the list of costs, perks, and eligibility?

Even a part of this information?

</comment><comment><USER28> Is this a recent change? Last summer my teenage son was given Precheck randomly. My wife and I did not and had to go through the regular line. We gave him all of our electronics and all three of us sailed through security even though two of us had to go through the standard line.

</comment><comment><USER29> Could somebody please kill this story before the wrong bureaucrat realizes this is happening and I lose my precheck status when I fly with my wife? Snitches get stitches.

<comment><USER30> omerta

</comment></comment><comment> java-man a back door into security theater!

</comment><comment><USER31> I heard Indian temples have fast lanes to see gods. This is a similar system to create a fastlane. If you pay $99, you don't have to take your shoes off.

</comment><comment><USER32> It makes sense if you think the person who has undergone the background check vouches for the others on their itinerary.

</comment><comment><USER33> This really should work the other way around.

<comment><USER34> Anyone on the same itinerary as a person without TSA precheck does not get TSA precheck? I think that already happens today..

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> fwiw I travel frequently and have observed the exact opposite : one or more pax on the same locator as me have "Pre" status on their boarding pass. TSA staff make me go separate from them, through the regular line.

</comment><comment><USER36> true. happened to me few days ago on an int'l flight.</comment>


Lost iPhone prototype spurs police probe - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20003308-37.html

<comment><USER2> In terms of appearances, the DA pursuing criminal charges is the best possible outcome for Apple. They get the satisfaction of seeing Giz and/or the "thief" scrutinized for their actions without risking the fallout of aggressively pursuing them with a civil suit.

Substantively, I admit not understanding the legal intricacies.

<comment><USER3> There was a longish discussion about this yesterday at <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1284949> if you're interested. I'm not a lawyer but I think what Gizmodo did violates the Uniform Trade Secrets Act (which California has adopted). I think it violates the economic espionage act too, but grellas has already discussed that.

Edit: bizarrely, Gizmodo mailed me earlier ( _after_ the CNet report had appeared) to clue me in on how Apple disguises their prototypes. It seems not to have occurred to them that this, if anything, emphasizes the idea of the phone being a trade secret.

I wonder if they think only the guy who sold them the phone is at risk of prosecution, and that the California Shield Law (which offers reporters a defense against contempt of court charges for refusing to reveal a source) gives them all the legal cover they need. Seeing as how their COO and legal adviser is not a US lawyer (<http://gabydarby.blogspot.com/>), they may be in for a surprise.

 _How Apple Conceals Prototype iPhones

There's a reason why more people haven't seen the next iPhones before Steve Jobs makes an announcement: They're in disguise.

This iPhone, which looks drastically different from the 3GS, was enclosed in a custom-molded plastic case so it could be used in public without attracting attention. In regular use, you would think that this was just a standard iPhone with the writing scratched off the back. Very clever.

The plastic case, which comes apart easily, looks just like a 3GS. When you pry the case apart, three bits—the power button, the mute switch and the volume rocker—quickly shed off. It's weird that these bits are made of plastic, when the corresponding parts on the 3GS are made of aluminum/metal.

To reassemble the case, all you have to do is make sure the little plastic bits are in the right place before popping the front back on. A very ingenious solution to protect future designs from lookeyloos. One of the best bits is that the case looks like a case FOR an older iPhone. iPhone cases are seen so often, that even if this one looks weird and doesn't match up to the 3GS body, it can be easily dismissed as just being a lousy case._

<comment><USER4> _Seeing as how their COO and legal adviser is not a US lawyer (<http://gabydarby.blogspot.com/>), they may be in for a surprise._

Usually people with a "C" in their title don't actually do the work for the departments they manage. The CTO of my company is not a Haskell programmer, but we have working Haskell production applications.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why is this a "computer crime"? What details would be different if this was a used box of condoms instead of an iPhone prototype?

<comment><USER5> Were they prototype condoms that are not publicly available? If so not much other than the condoms don't hold electronic data (assuming they aren't super revolutionary).

So things that could be illegal here:

1\. The product may have been taken without permission off apple property.

2\. The device could have sensitive "trade secret" data on it. The person who lost the device is certainly under NDA, therefore the information on the device did not lose this status.

3\. The device being a prototype may actually constitute trade secret worthy status.

In both 2 and 3 paying for the device could constitute industrial espionage for commercial purposes, depending on the circumstances.

4\. Just because the person who sold it to Gizmodo claims to have found it in a bar does not mean he did not steal it himself, with or without collusion from the apple guy.

There are many more potential crimes in this scenario.

As for what warrants it being investigated by the computer crimes folks: it is a high tech device and most of the players involved are high tech folks. It stands to reason they may have texted, emailed, twittered etc in the course of making the deal(s). The computer crimes folks are most likely to be able to trace that stuff down.

<comment><USER4> _It stands to reason they may have texted, emailed, twittered etc in the course of making the deal(s)._

Wouldn't this be true of any crime?

<comment><USER3> It could be, but with a blog it's a virtual certainty. Gizmodo doesn't publish their office phone number, for one thing.

<comment><USER4> Interesting.

Next week on HN, jrockway explains why Gizmodo should have used PGP :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Sheesh. What is it with all these stories? You'd think that leaking information about a new iPhone was the most important thing to happen this week.

It's not.

<comment><USER7> Commenting on stories you're not interested in is a waste of your own time.

<comment><USER4> Reading comments about how writing comments is a waste of time is a waste of time. Writing comments about reading comments about how writing comments is a waste of time.

And now you have to read a comment about writing a comment about reading a comment about writing a comment about reading a comment. I think.</comment></comment></comment>


Ruby 'debugger' gem pulled into rails master. 'ruby-debug19' tossed. - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/rails/rails/pull/5835

<comment><USER2> Awesome. Never could get ruby-debug19 to work with my client's rails app anyway.</comment>


Facebook takes down 'call to arms' event after two shot dead in Kenosha - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/26/21402571/kenosha-guard-shooting-facebook-deplatforming-militia-violence <comment><USER2> Crazy that the Verge doesn't do enough fact checking when writing their articles that they thought Jacob Blake was dead. It was common knowledge at the time the article was written that he wasn't dead.

</comment><comment><USER3> "The protests have incurred significant property damage, destroying a local Department of Corrections facility on Monday night."

Does The Verge know the definition of _incurred_?

</comment><comment><USER4> Word to the wise. If you haven't seen the videos (more specifically their aftermath) I'd recommend you avoid them. I'm sure a jury will watch them enough times for all of us.</comment>


IATA Chief Calls for End to Unacceptable Electronics Ban - <AUTHOR> http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/03/28/iata-chief-calls-end-unacceptable-electronics-ban/ <comment><USER2> Coincidentally the same day in Montreal 4 airport employees were were stripped of their security clearance due to "potential" radicalization: [http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/employees-at- mont...](http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/employees-at-montreals- trudeau-airport-potentially-radicalized- reports?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)</comment>


Show HN: Events around you for the Solar Eclipse - <AUTHOR> http://xn--6g8hia.ws <comment><USER2> This is so cool! Thank you so much for this. Also, my browser address bar doesn't support emojis. Am I doing something wrong??

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your comment :)

Make sure you have the latest version of the browser.

Sometimes you can type the emoji domain and it will be converted to punnycodes directly.

Emoji domains are just starting.</comment></comment>


Ten Great Startup Offices - <AUTHOR> http://startupdispatch.com/startups/ten-great-startup-offices/

<comment><USER2> There's some excellent examples of horrible ergonomics in about half of those offices. Laptops on desk and craned necks lead to back problems. As do dinky plastic chairs.

I'd like some of the smaller meeting / quiet rooms shown in a few places, and the decor is nice looking, but give me a small office with a window, door, and walls any day over an open layout. As long as the office is at least decent, a designer office isn't that important.</comment>


Reverse-Engineered Irises Look So Real, They Fool Eye-Scanners - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/reverse-engineering-iris-scans/

<comment><AUTHOR> Preaching to the choir, I know, but every time a story like this comes along I'm hopeful that people will recognise that relying on biometric identifiers is a really bad idea. This one's worse than usual: people thought iris scanning was more secure (than, say, fingerprints), but it turns out to be less secure as it's probably not all that difficult to use contact lenses to fool a scanner.

</comment><comment><USER2> It seems like a simple fix would help make this more secure in the real world: orientation- make it more difficult for a contact lens to work (now it has to be rotated in the correct angle) I can't think of a reason this would be hard to implement in software....

</comment><comment><USER3> biometrics needs to get comprehensive, with dozens of separate identifying features, and no public release of what those features are.

<comment><USER4> Security through obscurity?

<comment><USER5> That is what a password is.</comment></comment></comment>


Julian Assange: 'I am – like all hackers – a little bit autistic' - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/julian-assange-i-am-ndash-like-all-hackers-ndash-a-little-bit-autistic-2358654.html

<comment><AUTHOR> One thing I can't tell: was this ghost written, as part of the new book?</comment>


Reality doesn't exist until we measure it, quantum experiment confirms - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms <comment><USER2> I'll copy my comment in the discussion of the press release, with the obvious redaction changes:

> The title of the press release is better: "Experiment confirms quantum > theory weirdness"

> Reality follows the Quantum Mechanics laws, Quantum Mechanics laws re weird, > ergo this experiment proves that Reality is Weird.

> It doesn't prove that "Reality doesn't exist until we measure it", only that > is you are only use to see macroscopic objects, when you see the reality at > a level where the quantum details are important it looks weird.</comment>


Apple doesn't give a sh** about your kids - <AUTHOR> https://boingboing.net/2018/03/27/apple-doesnt-give-a-shit-abo.html <comment><USER2> The author is right about one point. Apple fears the low cost Chrome books/pads encroaching on their educational sector.

But the author misses the reason why. It is not the money they might lose now that scares them. What scares them is that they lose their "in" to impressionable young minds such that they can manufacture legions of fanboi's who will forever unquestionably pay a price premium for apple hardware in the years to come.

That's what scares their 'money folks'. That lost future revenue from someone who's first real contact was in school with apple hardware, and was turned into a fanboi who will now line up hundreds deep at "the store" to buy the latest massively overpriced apple 'thing'.</comment>


HubSpot has now raised $33m... and is growing fast - <AUTHOR> http://onstartups.com/tabid/3339/bid/10799/Holy-Crap-HubSpot-Has-Now-Raised-A-Total-Of-33-Million.aspx

<comment><USER2> Based on $6 million remaining I'm guessing their burn rate is around half a million per month. I'd love to hear how that much money is being spent. Unless there are 30+ employees and significant advertising/infrastructure costs I can't imagine how to spend that much money responsibly in a really small company.

<comment><USER3> You're in the ball-park.

The company is actually 90 people now. Revenues grew 350% over the past 12 months (in a down economy).

We do our best to spend the money responsibly. But, it's all relative. When I was a bootstrapped entrepreneur, even $1 million seemed like a lot of money.

<comment><USER2> 90 people!? That's a all the explanation necessary :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> _Did we need the cash? No, we didn't need the cash. We had over $6 million in the bank. But, if I've learned one thing about VC fund-raising it's that not needing to raise money helps a lot._

VC is a strange beast...

<comment><USER5> What it helps a lot with are the terms of the deal. If you NEED the money to keep your company afloat investors are going to put the screws to you for a much lower valuation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Pace yourself (much) more on things under your control -- that I fully agree.

"""you should always raise more than you think you need to get to the next milestone""" -- that I fully agree too

</comment><comment><USER7> With 1600 paying customers and a minimum of $250/month they should generate ~$400.000/month!</comment>


How Hunch Built a Data-Crunching Monster - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2010/12/how-hunch-built-a-data-crunchi.php

<comment><USER2> "more conventional technologies like Hadoop"

It's remarkable how quickly distributed computing has come to the forefront of scaling. 3 years ago, before hadoop and horizontal scaling became huge buzz- ideas, this (buying comically large boxes and heavily optimizing your math libs) was the standard practice.

That being said, there is a reason why people have slowly but surely been moving towards distributed systems: If Hunch needs boxes that big to deal with 500k uniques/month, they are going to need to run some seriously insane hardware when they actually grow a large user base.

<comment><USER3> Graph problems are really hard to scale out because any node could theoretically be connected to any other node. That means you can't just break the graph into 5 chunks because some edges will cross server boundaries.

The only way I've seen it done in Hadoop is to store a big file listing every edge as a pair and do N passes if you want to do a calculation with a distance of N. Not the most elegant approach but with enough horsepower it'll work.

<comment><USER4> We've experimented with this, and we've found that with "social network" graphs (that is, scale-free networks whose degree distribution follows a power law) it's possible to determine "good" partitions on which to split the nodes. "Communication" (that is, algorithms that run across edges) within a partition is fast, and message-passing between partitions is minimized.

<comment><USER3> Is your algorithm general or is it based on details specific to your data?

If it's general and not secret sauce, mind posting a brief description? Appreciated

<comment><USER4> These are hard problems to solve, even approximately, and nothing we're doing is original. Like quantitative finance, a lot of the original research comes from outside the field (ie. "quasi-clique detection in protein-protein interaction networks"). For those that are interested, there's a lot of information in recent public or easily-available research papers. A weekend spent programming a good idea from a paper is well worth it.

For better or worse, we don't use any graph-specific heuristics beyond general assumptions of the graph's structure (which may or may not be correct, but that's another story...). We're dealing with a massive sparse graph whose vertex set, but not edge set, fits in memory (RAM). Embarrassingly, the edges are stored in a database in MySQL; we might be running the world's largest graph on MySQL, but I think we get better performance from MySQL than we could from any other products. Needless to say, we're not using _anything_ relational. Like a lot of graphs (the Web, social networks, etc.), the number of edges is several orders of magnitude larger than the size of the vertex set, so we plan accordingly.

Perhaps my use of the term "partition" above is incorrect; these aren't perfect partitions (they don't exist, except in theory), but are what's known as "quasi-cliques" (the field of graph theory is rife with jargon).

We're happy with what we've come up with; contrary to most, the limits we face are mostly due to limited storage capacity rather than limited computation time or network capacity, which is essential for handling growth.

Sorry if all of this has been too general; there's not too much I can say specifically without revealing our "secret sauce". :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Interesting and very unexpected. Any other examples of companies going the non-COTS/Map-Reduce/Cloud way?

</comment><comment><USER6> That is darn impressive. What sort of network interface and protocol is it using?

</comment><comment><USER7> I hope they are running with swap turned off...</comment>


Functional programming recursion schemes - <AUTHOR> http://www.lazzaro.com.ar/#/archive/83103005589

<comment><USER2> I couldn't understand the authors implementation. I found this in prelude. So much simpler.

dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]

dropWhile p [] = []

dropWhile p xs@(x:xs')

                | p x       =  dropWhile p xs'

                | otherwise =  xs

I feel that dropWhile isn't that kind of operation fold was designed for.

EDIT: I was somewhat wrong. After some googling I found this clever implementation :

dropWhilePair :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> ([a], [a])

dropWhilePair p = foldr f v

      where

        f x (ys,xs) = (if p x then ys else x : xs, x : xs)

        v            = ([],[])

But this returns a tuple whose first element is the answer we need.

</comment><comment><USER3> A strangely glaring error

        prod (x:xs) = x * (sum xs)

<comment><USER4> That's why I wished anaphoric recursion was more used.

        prod (x:xs) = x * (self xs)

<comment><USER3>
        prod' self [] = 1
        prod' self (x:xs) = x * self xs

        prod = fix prod'

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe my Haskell is a bit rusty, but I don't get the definition of recr. What is 'f' in the following?:

        recr base combine (x:xs) = f x xs (recr base combine xs)

<comment><USER6> it is a typo. should be 'combine' (because, the way it is now, the presence of the 'combine' argument serves no purpose).

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It's not clear what programming language is being used in this blog entry from April 2014, but it does show a trick or two using a higher level function as input to the foldr recursive function.

This feels like it has some examples of how to use it and how NOT to use it, but there is some confusion expressed by the writer as well.

<comment><USER8> It's not stated anywhere, but it's Haskell. Usually a safe bet when presented with a functional programming language that is not lisp-like normuses a c-like syntax.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you really want to go down the rabbit hole on stuff like this, check out bouncy folds

[https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/useful_techni...](https://github.com/quchen/articles/blob/master/useful_techniques.md#bouncy- folds)

<comment><USER10> Also valuable in this space is writing `foldl` in terms of `foldr` and writing operations on Hughe's lists.</comment></comment>