Regular meditation may be more beneficial than vacation - <AUTHOR> http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/relaxation-benefits-meditation-stronger-relaxation-benefits-taking-vacation-2016102710532 <comment><USER2> Mindfulness meditation is one of the pillars on which my life rests. If you have never done it before, realize that it's hard, especially if you fall anywhere on the ADHD spectrum, and it's just brutal for the first few weeks for anyone. As your brain becomes more still and your focus improves you'll notice your productivity improve. As the mental chatter drops you'll also notice the problems in your life, that you've ignored or been too distracted to see, impeding your ability to meditate. Only _working_ to fix them will allow you to continue, but you'll be better off for it.

I rarely talk about meditation in professional circles because, for one, people think it's weird or have a preconceived notion of what it is, but more so it's so damn effective that it's seriously my secret weapon in life and part of my competitive edge. (As an aside, it has nothing at all to do with "strange religions", vegans, or yoga pants.)

Start slow, 10 minutes a day for a week, then add 5 for the next week, and so on, and don't rush. Take it seriously and don't disrespect it. I simply cannot recommend it enough.

<comment><USER3> > I rarely talk about meditation in professional circles because, for one, > people think it's weird

No, it totally makes sense. Long walks in the woods or long runs are almost like meditation for me, and it is definitely like vacation for the mind.

I just wonder where to get started with actual meditation - I have to admit I find the predominant literature about that topic extremely esoteric, and that's something that easily puts me off.

Any tips what a good starting point would be?

<comment><USER4> I recommend HeadSpace [https://www.headspace.com/](https://www.headspace.com/). I think it's great that you start slowly and guided which is perfect for a beginner.

<comment><USER5> Seconded, HeadSpace is amazing. Surprised to see it only mentioned here once.

<comment><USER3> Ok, I've heard from that before, but it looked too much like a game to me, I'll try it out then :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Now I can show _this_ to my employees when they ask for vacation days. I won't allow anything but the best for them and meditation can be efficiently packed into the lunch break time frame.

<comment><USER7> This is what bothers me about meditation. Sometimes meditation looks like a panacea. Your life s _cks, your boss is an_ ssh*le, your personal relationships a mess, but if you meditate everything will be all right. Better to put some prozac in the water system.

<comment><USER8> Life doesn't relent. Even young, rich, beautiful people are susceptible to feelings of unsatisfactory-ness that leave them reaching for the booze and hard drugs or just feeling all around unfulfilled and miserable. Humans are built to run on a hedonic treadmill, not to be content in the moment.

Meditation is a tool so that when your life scks, your boss is an ssh*le, and your personal relationships are a mess, THEN someone cuts you off in traffic you take a minute or two of breath awareness and open monitoring instead of running them off the road and karate kicking them in the head.

It helps you relax into feelings of anger, pain, or depression instead of running from them and chasing your addictive behavior of choice to escape. Also like every other tool out there it isn't 100% effective.

<comment><USER9> Your example was extreme with the 'running them off the road' bit, but actually meditation isn't helpful _unless it pushes you to that breaking point._

You need to get worked up, speak your mind, start the argument, quit your job when things get too bad. Life isn't a float on the lazy river. Feelings of anger and pain exist for a reason.

Thats why meditation, as it's sold, is bullsh*t. You're describing an alternative to xanax.

<comment><USER8> I've noticed a lot of people that meditate struggle with aversion of thoughts and feelings vs "letting go" of thoughts and feelings. You certainly feel every bit of pain, anger, and sadness as a non meditator would.

The distinction is that you work on "meta-cognitive awareness". You try to avoid getting swept up in the narrative thought stream if possible. So here goes from my own experience (doesn't work 100% of the time).

without mindful awareness Guy cuts me off -> "WTF is that guy doing? What a moron! Someone always has to mess with me! Look at how smug he is. I want to jam his nose into the back of his head"

with Guy cuts me off -> "WTF is that guy doing? Woah feeling that anger. I can feel it right in my chest and kind of a warm feeling in my face and arms. Hmm interesting. I wonder if he is rushing to the hospital or to some emergency. Just like me, I've accidentally cut someone off before. Oh well what's on the radio"

It helps you build more mature mental models. Mental models are useful but often wrong. Mindfulness can help you question your own mental models and take things less personally. Tons of reputable studies will back up mindfulness and meditation as a standalone or complementary tool for stress, anxiety, depression, and pain. Medication still plays a very important role.

Edit: Upvote to you for bringing up a good point. It is very hard to sort out the bull*hit in the meditation community. There is an awful lot of tradition, psudo-science, and plain old snobbery in this community. Anyone that gets involved should start with the basics and avoid as much of the spiritual hype as possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've been going through challenging times and have been confronted with somethings I've never had to deal with before. There are a couple of things that trigger anxiety in me on a daily basis now. I wake up in the middle of the night with little anxiety episodes. I'm unfocused at work because of what feels like underlying emotional issues.

The only thing that's helped (I am trying to fix without medication) are the tools from HeartMath. Their "Transforming Stress" book has been a god send. It's not a get well fast type thing, but I've been practicing the sessions daily for a month now and am in much better control of my stress and anxiety.

I have practiced Tai Chi, meditation, and visualization via NLP techniques in the past. I'm not a novice when it comes to the types of techniques that HeartMath teaches. However, the way theirs are structured are the most effective I've found for dealing with these issues.

If you're going through hard times I highly recommend using their tools.

<comment><USER11> Do you drink coffee? Try 100% cutting out caffeine!

<comment><USER12> Any strategies to cut? If I don't drink my morning cup, I get bad headaches around the evening and basically stop functioning.

<comment><USER13> The painful way is pretty simple! Wait until you have a few days you can be "down" and just go cold turkey. I find I do OK the first couple of days, then get a pretty bad headache. When that's gone I'm back to normal.

<comment><USER14> This. The withdrawal symptoms of coffee usually last for about a week. The thing that is perhaps most surprising is that after that week you'll also feel less tired. Turns out that while most people consider coffee as a remedy to tiredness, it's the coffee itself that actually makes you more tired, so you need more and more of it, just like any other addictive drug.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Vacations are wide and broad. Normally I try to cram so much traveling, visiting, sight seeing, partying and drinking/eating into my vacation that I'm more burned out when they are over then when I started them. I often joke that I need a vacation from my vacation. I also have this habit to book my flights as close to when my job ends/starts, like take a red-eye right after work and come back the day I start work again, going straight from airport to work.

Given that, I absolutely can believe meditation is better then vacation. But I'd have to wonder, if my vacation consisted of calmly driving to a Cabin in the forest and pleasantly sitting on the side of a lake reading or pondering or looking at the lake by myself for the whole vacation, would that still be worse then meditation? Or is this starting to count as meditating?

<comment><USER16> Americans just don't get enough vacation time. If you only get two weeks a year, you feel compelled to cram as much in as possible. Four to six weeks is the norm in Europe, so you don't feel guilty about "wasting" a week. With that amount of vacation time, you can take several short breaks and still have time for a big summer trip.

<comment><USER17> Most professionals get more than two weeks. Two weeks of paid vacation is really minimum entry-level stuff. I walked into 3 weeks and negotiated 4 weeks for next year in my review, and I've known people who (much further in their careers) have 5 or 6.

One of the problems in the tech industry specifically is a lot of the PTO schemes in the US are tied to length of service at that company. If you're jumping around every 2-4 years it's hard to get more than 3 weeks unless you're at a much higher level. At one of my previous very conservative, corporate/public, healthcare industry jobs there was a developer who had been at that company for over 20 years and he got 6 weeks a year. The manager had been there for a year so only got 2 weeks.

<comment><USER16> >Most professionals get more than two weeks. Two weeks of paid vacation is really minimum entry-level stuff. I walked into 3 weeks and negotiated 4 weeks for next year in my review, and I've known people who (much further in their careers) have 5 or 6.

Americans tend not to use all of their vacation time; professionals often end up working remotely while on vacation. There's a fear of losing your job or being overlooked for promotion. This is a largely alien concept in Europe, where job security is much stronger.

[http://www.marketwatch.com/story/55-of-american-workers- dont...](http://www.marketwatch.com/story/55-of-american-workers-dont-take- all-their-paid-vacation-2016-06-15)

<comment><USER17> "Americans don't use their vacation" is a lot different than "Americans don't have enough vacation." And while I'm sure there are companies and cultures that expect you to work on vacation, I've been working in tech professionally for over a decade at multiple companies and have never felt remotely pressured to do anything on vacation, and doing so is certainly not the norm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> >He went on to explain that other factors that often go hand in hand with meditation (for example, exercise, diet, even exposure to incense) could help explain these improvements. "So that as well remains to be more fully resolved in future studies."

Sounds nice and vague although that is understandable. It reminds me of studies suggesting that taking regular naps give all sorts of health and longevity benefits. Is it the naps themselves or that you have a lifestyle that permits you the opportunity to take naps? If nothing else the ability to decide to nap indicates the individual is in control of their time which would seem to correlate with lower stress levels Vs someone who has their daily schedule dictated to them in such a way as to make laying down for 20 minutes impossible.

There are so many confounding factors the outcomes are always going to be really fuzzy.

</comment><comment><USER19> How long until the trend in unicorn startup will be to give employees zero vacation days but unlimited meditation?

</comment><comment><USER20> > You say vacation, I say meditation…

Beneficial to what? The point of a vacation isn't about being more productivity at work. Productivity is not the goal.

<comment><USER21> I would argue that productivity is probably a good proxy for mental health on a per-employee basis. It's not the goal, but it's an easily measurable correlated value.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> One thing that strikes me often with vacations of the average person is how much of a runaway it is.

\- Fed up with work, I need holidays.

####

\- Fed up with holidays, can't wait to get back to work.

<comment><USER23> I've noticed this too, some says it's a bad habit energy we've developed in our modern society, always running to the next thing, always looking to consume. It's as if there is a sense of uneasiness that comes along with stillness.

Maybe we need to relearn the art of doing nothing?

I've been out of full time work for a while (mostly voluntary due to travelling) and I can, after 6 months feel myself beginning to settle somewhat, The first week of lying on a tropical beach did feel a little bit like torture to be honest!

I do meditate, but without being in a meditation community or "sangha", it can be hard to stay at it for extended periods, especially while travelling.

<comment><USER24> the consumption cycle is sustained because it benefits the powers that be. humans are _insatiable_ , and as long as you are convinced that contentment requires "just one more thing," you will never be happy, you will always be hungry, and you will always want more. happiness isn't pleasure, because of hedonic adaption, pleasure eventually becomes boring and empty. happiness is contentment with what you have. it is escape from the pain-pleasure cycle. when you're content, you even _avoid_ strong pleasure, because it disrupts your tranquility.

it's insane that young people of today believe that a good life requires living a big city, gourmet foods, craft beers, urban scavenger hunts etc. these are forms of leisure that were all but inaccessible to 95% of the world up until 200 years ago. so happiness didn't exist until today? staying in the cycle ensures that you'll be devoured by labor, until you get that "fuck you money." it's as if some guys "crushing it" really do believe that work will set them free, some day. it's just as said in "my dinner with andre":

> I think that New York is the new model for the new concentration camp, where > the camp has been built by the inmates themselves, and the inmates are the > guards, and they have this pride in this thing that they've built—they've > built their own prison—and so they exist in a state of schizophrenia where > they are both guards and prisoners. And as a result they no longer > have—having been lobotomized—the capacity to leave the prison they've made > or even to see it as a prison.

many techies are enormously proud of the addictive, attention-as-a-commodity prison they have built, that's kept people anxious and distracted and most assuredly unhappy. they're convinced that giving more of their labor is the answer; it is not.

<comment><USER23> Thanks for the good response. I've been quite aware of these things for sometime, but how to communicate and build awareness to an already hopelessly anxious and distracted populous?

That seems to be the trouble.

<comment><USER25> I believe our design processes have to change to ones that are more mindful & we need a system w/mass appeal/access to teach people mindfulness.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> > vacation has beneficial but very temporary effects, and that mindfulness > therapies have sustained beneficial effects.

Proving the obvious.

But I would choose vacation over meditation any time. Seeing the world and other cultures does a lot for my mental health too.

</comment><comment><USER27> Last year I took two months off between contracts. It was more a staycation, but realistically it had been over 10 years since my last vacation, or more than a day off.

That time period did so much to help rejuvinate me and make me better. Working on personal projects, and other items. Towards the tail end I took on part time work and was still happier than I had been in years. The biggest thing was being able to meditate daily. Pick what I want that day, whether it be a novel, research, or software.

I took an actual vacation this year. I was more stressed, and frazzled going into it, and even worse coming out. I had just rented my house, and the vacation was rife with calls from the police about trouble from my tenants, and missed payments. The travel was also frought with layovers and delays.

I also meditate, did tai chi, etc. Gym time and meditation was crucial for my over all well being. But now being one of those mega commuters, which is about to end. I didn't really have the time. Being crunched for time, it was easier to reach for a bottle of whiskey to ease my tension. Which is by no means ideal. I had actually gone dry for three years, and broke that several months prior.

I've also found my meditation is largely based on relieving stress from work. Where I'm not fulfilled in the slightest at work. I then meditate to try and combat that feeling. It's a cyclical cycle.

</comment><comment><USER28> It is not clear from the article if the meditation group stopped meditating or not.

The headline conclusion only makes sense if nobody in the novice meditation group meditated after that week.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'm also a big fan of meditation - I believe it changed the way I perceive every day "threats" and allows me to see the roots of any problem I encounter instead of just allowing automatic subconscious defense mechanisms to kick in. That being said, in this study it seems that the experimental group really had a vacation AND meditation, so I'm not surprised they had better results.

</comment><comment><USER30> Meditation is about clearing your mind of distractions. A vacation is supposed to be a chance to see the world and do things you normally wouldn't.

You should try to be stress free in your daily life. Your vacation should be a little stressful. All my best travel stories feature stress (or some conflict, or challenge, or misadventure, ...)

Sitting on a beach is nice, but it's also safe and boring. Go get lost somewhere.

</comment><comment><USER31> I would agree for the most part, as meditation (from my experience) can provide a consistent, harmonising and content feeling that would persist for longer than the joy that comes from pure escapism or novelty of experience of a vacation.

I've been doing Transcendental Meditation I learnt through ZivaMIND for over a year now and I couldn't imagine being as on the ball emotionally/with reference to myself without it. I've found it so brilliant.

IMO, Meditation, and more broadly speaking, the uninterrupted time we allow for ourselves, should be taught in schools and by parents ubiquitously, as its an obvious antidote to our constant connectedness eating away at our wellbeing and creativity and compassion/gratitude.

</comment><comment><USER32> I found these free guided meditations to be extremely helpful: [http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=22](http://marc.ucla.edu/body.cfm?id=22)

They are from UCLA Mindful Awareness Research Center.

</comment><comment><USER33> Meditation does nothing for me. It's ironic that the people I know who are into meditation tend to be completely out of touch with themselves and meditation doesn't seem to actually change anything about them.

<comment><USER34> I've found two kinds of people who meditate: those who should be on drugs, and those who look like they're on drugs because they are so zen.

One of the benefits of regular meditation is a letting go of things that don't matter and focusing on the things that do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> There are mountains of good and bad info on meditation. Here is a primer on mindfulness as I understand it from Ronald Siegel (Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School, author etc)

The human brain has two default modes of operation and you have very little control over them. They exist because they offered an evolutionary advantage in much more dangerous times, but don't necessarily promote a sense of well being/happiness in a modern relatively safe world. a) Pleasure seeking and pain avoidance b)Self referential thought ("Am I good enough, smart enough and do people like me?")

Mindfulness offers a third option. Relaxed open awareness with general acceptance. It can be done my anchoring awareness on a physical sensation like the breath. You won't be able to hold your concentration there very long before you realize you're thinking of something else. You are mindful when you realize your mind had drifted and you bring it back to your anchor.

It offers tons of well studied and documented benefits like increased activity in the left prefrontal cortex with is good for reasons that google can tell you.

A note from my experience. Expect the timeline of benefits to be similar to starting a cardio or weight training program. Your first few times may seem like a waste of time but the benefits start piling up after a few weeks.

</comment><comment><USER35> That headline is misleading. It was an experiment with 91 female volunteers and the 'vacation' was not something I would consider a vacation.

</comment><comment><USER36> There was some useful discussion of meditation on HN a few years ago [1]. Reading it, I was surprised by how many people here use meditation and benefit from it - professionally as well as personally.

This [2] post by twotimesposter is a particularly good answer to the question of "how to meditate to achieve mindfulness?". So much so that I bookmarked it. Really must get around to trying it.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4926642](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4926642)

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4928060](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4928060)

<comment> q-base No need to make such a big deal out of doing it or getting around to doing it. As someone else recommended take the free Headspace 10 day course or search Jon Kabat-Zinn, he has some videos where he teaches mindfulness in front of an audience.

If you make it too big a "thing" both "it" and you will fail and not achieve whatever you have set your mind on it achieving.

<comment><USER37> Kabat-Zinn's book "Wherever you go, there you are" is also recommended.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Nice try, capitalist hawks!

</comment><comment><USER39> Give up expectations. You will be free from stress. Thats it.

<comment><USER32> Simple, but not easy :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> If anyone gets turned off by spiritual/religious aspects around Meditation, I have found this podcast very helpful in understanding: [https://secularbuddhism.com/](https://secularbuddhism.com/) It is not mainly about meditation but general Buddhist concepts. I am finding that it is helping me be mindful more often and meditate once in awhile.

If you do start listening to it, start with first 5 episodes.

</comment><comment><USER41> " _a recent study comparing a mindfulness meditation and yoga retreat to regular vacation in terms of mental health as well as physical health outcomes_ "

The study compared a week of health lectures and "fun outdoor stuff" to a week-long meditation retreat. This isn't meditation vs. vacation, it's meditation+vacation vs. vacation.

</comment><comment><USER42> "As there is a science and technology to create external wellbeing, there is a whole dimension of science and technology for inner wellbeing."

Here is a study conducted on 536 Isha practitioners

[https://www.innerengineering.com/ieo- new/benefits/](https://www.innerengineering.com/ieo-new/benefits/)

</comment><comment><USER43> Here is one interesting App helpful for relaxation but in a different way.

I notice some improvements since one month using it. \- better sleeping \- more focus \- positive thinking

(Unfortunately the app is just for iOS at the moment) [https://appsto.re/de/8PGcfb.i](https://appsto.re/de/8PGcfb.i)

<comment><USER44> Forgive me for speculating, but given your username (diegoloop) and the name of the developer of that app (Diego Lopez), it kinda feels like you're promoting your own app.

If that's the case, you should definitely disclose that rather than pretending to be just a user of the app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I know a startupper who struggled for almost 10 years, then started meditation and yoga practises and then in less than 1 year the startup growed significantly and eventually got sold successfully. That was me. Was it a coincidence ?

</comment><comment><USER46> I've got hundreds of memories that I treasure dearly from traveling the world.

I suppose it depends on if you're vacationing just to get away from work, or if there's something you really want to do/see/experience.

</comment><comment><USER47> Playing Tennis twice a week made my life much better. I suggest everyone to try it if you suffer from stress, anxiety and lack of mental focus. That's also great to loose some weight and get in a better shape.

</comment><comment><USER48> seems most beneficial then to both vacation and meditate simultaneously.

<comment><USER49> Anecdotal data here. I'm a regular mediator for the past 10 years. I'm not currently working, but when I was I would one or two 1 week meditation retreats a year instead of a "normal" vacation. My experience was a one week meditation retreat felt like a 3-4 week normal vacation getting a break from my job. Generally by halfway through the first day I more or less was not thinking about work anymore. However I don't necessarily think the experience would be the same if I didn't have a regular practice and doing the retreat with people I normally meditate with.

I'm skeptical in general about health benefit claims for meditation, what I would say is if you think it might help you, try it, but gradually. Like maybe do a 1 day or 3 day meditation retreat and see how it goes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> This is classic western scam to get you not to go to vacation :). I wouldn't trust anything.

Meditation is good for you and you will realize that you need to go on vacation during your meditation.

</comment><comment><USER51> Meh I don't buy it, the method of the study seems not very sound. I myself was on a 10 days meditation retreat [http://www.sobhana.dhamma.org/](http://www.sobhana.dhamma.org/) where we meditated for 16 hours a day or something and sure it helped with the mood, relaxation, etc. but it wore out after a couple of weeks and I never had the nerv to meditate daily because it was not worth it. Btw. my brother and sister attended it too and both say the same about it.

<comment><USER52> A quick question, because I'm genuinely curious: if you never did it daily, how do you know it wasn't worth it?

<comment><USER51> I did it "daily" for 10 days very intensive, and the bliss or what you want to call it was there but not worth the hassle. But I also have a suspection that I'm the wrong person for that because my normal level of being is already very calm and relaxed. The only thing which can get to me if I don't sleep enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> _The study was conducted at a resort in Southern California_

It's an incredibly deceptively named article. The study showed that meditating _whilst_ on vacation is more beneficial than a vacation without meditation. All participants _were_ on vacation.

Also, the participants who were meditating already knew how to meditate, so at best we have a correlation between the kind of people who learn to meditate and feeling less stressed during/after a vacation.

<comment><USER54> I accept your point that the results of the study should be taken with caution, but don't these statements at least partially refute your dismissal?

 _At the end, all three groups (vacation, novice, and regular meditators) showed statistically significant improvements in scores of stress and depression, which were measured using well-established and commonly used questionnaires. If we stop there, it seems that vacation is just as good as mindfulness exercises for stress reduction and mood lifting._

 _But what's really striking are the result from 10 months later: the regular meditators still showed significant improvements on these scores, the novice meditators even more so. However, the vacationers were back to baseline._

<comment><USER55> The headline implies that instead of taking vacations, you should simply meditate. But the article doesn't support that in any way.

Rather, it suggests that you should spend at least 1 week of vacation per year in a secluded environment doing structured mindfulness activities such as yoga and meditation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> I misread this as "medication" and was confused for a while.

<comment><USER57> Not as bad as me who thought this was "Meditation" vs "Vaccination"

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> I still prefer holidays though.

</comment><comment><USER59> And meditation is? Sitting in a public place in yoga pants holding fingers in a mudra? Vacation defined as? Does vacation include visiting Buddhist countries and Indian meditation retreats? How long a vacation should be?

Hint: meditation requires a profound changes in ones assumptions about his own nature and conditioning. That's why the teaching of the Buddha has been a philosophy, not a book of asanas. Meditation is the tool to realize accuracy and correctness of Buddha's insights. To test and validate his hypothesis by yourself.

there is a good place to start: [https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of- meditation](https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of-meditation)

<comment><USER60> The course mentioned by parent is definitely worth watching for anyone interested. Lot of valuable information both on neuro/psychology of meditation and Buddhism.

I wouldn't agree with the statement that medidtation requires profound changes in ones assumptions. One can start with just a simple instruction, eg. "don't think about the breath, but watch for sensations that constitute the experience of breathing" and, as they develop mindfulness, incporporate more and more conceptual knowledge about what Buddha called Right View while testing it in practice.

I guess you're right, though, that without right information you could possibly sit in your yoga pants and mudra (vide any stock photo with 'meditation' tag) and don't get anywhere for years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> " statistically significant improvements in scores of stress and depression"

It's hard to measure what 'benefit' means.

These things are a matter of choice as much as anything else.

Moreover, it may very well be that some of the answers were 'primed' by the content of the retreat.</comment>


Tips for Successful Self-Learning - <AUTHOR> http://measuringmeasures.com/blog/2010/4/19/7-tips-for-successful-self-learning.html <comment><USER2> Another tip: Do it when you're motivated, don't wait, because motivation might fade and not come back for a while.

<comment><USER3> More importantly, learn what you're motivated _to_ learn. Don't try to learn the things you "should" learn, because you probably won't be able to do it until you want to learn them.

<comment><USER4> Bah...there are many things you "should" learn while not being necessarily motivated to do so. By persevering and mastering them, you'll often reap great rewards.

We shy away from challenging, intimidating tasks on a psychological level by nature. Fighting through this is one of the few things that keeps us moving forward. If you're unmotivated to learn something but you really "should", I suggest you find a way to become motivated.

<comment><USER5> You know, though I agree, I think this is a POV issue. Some people believe one side and merely understand the other.

Consider a person who both wants to be a doctor, because they admire the direct nature of a doctors work, but they don't enjoy people themselves. And, also wants to be an engineer because they find it all more interesting and valuable, but they never particularly liked math. Depending on the person one choice will be more desirable and will be easier to learn motivation for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have found the hardest part of self-learning to be finding peers and mentors, but I live in a technological wasteland.

The internet has made it easier, but it's not the same. When I socialize with friends, they don't care to talk about programming. In fact, they make fun of me.

<comment><USER7> IRC can be a great way to connect with other programmers who are in similar wastelands. Programming is kind of boring to most people. :)

<comment><USER8> Which channels would you recommend?

<comment><USER9> #haskell. I go there to ask math and compsci questions as well as stuff on Haskell itself. Sorry for not being the actual person you addressed the question to but #haskell is a really great channel, I didn't want you to miss out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "The longest path is the shortest and the shortest path is the longest"

back when i was in school and onwards in the academic world, it was always said aloud that the quicker you grasp, the intelligent you were. A lot of students(i perceive - even now) were in rush to prove that they understood - many a times getting to the end of the book before understanding the basics. The momentary appalaud of "well said" and "hurray!" turned out to be a disease - a disease of skimming thru and finding the answers. This got into an habbit and now well embedded in my approach to even outside books. 20 years (outside school) and still counting on the skimming the book[most recently, I picked up a Math book (Intro to Analysis- as suggested Brad's earlier post)]. Struggling thru is a small part of the battle; mind plays the depression game while I try to search for a notation (the greek for complement of a set), while I don't give in as I used to, nowadays it plays the second game of age-"35 years and you don't know 'xyz'!". So yes, my the shortest path has been so long that I have not been able to put an end to it. </end-self-humiliation>

"avoid isolation"

would anyone suggest how to get by this? I work in the enterprise world, where the likes are 9-5/fix-the-bug-save-my-arse. I haven't met anyone whom I could ask about a notation or even discuss about this. I am shy to meet people (read- fearful).few people I did try to ask usually have the repulsive smirky grin. I looked for user groups in the local area (seattle-at present), but didn't find any. It would be awesome if someone tells me this proof of A-intersection-B-intersection-C is going to help in XYZ.

<comment><USER11>
      would anyone suggest how to get by this?

<http://mathoverflow.net/>

<comment><USER12> What does "get by" mean in this context?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> _Tip for building eigencourses_ : I have found, through lots of trial and error, that nothing beats a math book with worked solutions to the exercises at the back of the book. The kind of immediate feedback that you get from comparing two solutions is really helpful and cuts down the time you need to internalize concepts.

<comment><USER11> It's true, but as you go on, it gets much harder to find books with worked solutions. Sometimes, authors inline examples in the text which almost suffice.

<comment><USER14> I've forgotten where I read this, but read the questions/problems AND attempt to solve them before even reading the chapter. You will learn the material better.

<comment><USER13> This is true. Part of the reason I think is that it puts the main ideas to the forefront so when you read the chapter you actually know what to look for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Instant community: audit a course at your local college or university.

Even if uninterested in a degree, attending a class helps keep motivation and meet peers.

</comment><comment><USER16> Good article, I especially liked the quote: "Avoid the dualistic mistakes of technical execution without intuition, and intuition without technical execution.".

Personally, I feel that if you don't have an intuition for something you don't quite understand it -- it's still a a jumble of memorized knowledge.

Separately, I've started to realize the term "self-learning" is a pet peeve of mine. You can't teach someone; you can present, and they can learn. It's like having a word like "self-exercise" -- a coach/teacher can only show you what to do, not do it for you. In this case, "self-learning" means learning in the absence of a structured environment/coach, and the goal is to find or create your own.

</comment><comment><USER17> Points to add. 1\. What your learning should be of interest to you. 2\. Learning material for technical stuff should have ton of examples[I think most people have strong inductive reasoning]. Always, remember when it comes to learning that you have proven that you can learn but the material/ resource you are trying to learn from hasnt proven it can teach.

</comment><comment><USER18> _Avoid isolation_

This is an increasingly murky notion to me re: the web.

At any other time in history [1] sitting alone in your room reading something would have been a solitary task without question. There was a social component insofar as you were interacting with an author, but since that's one-way communication (read-only medium) it was still clearly distinct from social activities.

Fast forward to now when the thing your reading and writing is near- instantaneous updates to/from other reader-writers like you and this phenomenon is looking sufficiently different from traditional at-home reading as to defy most meaningful distinctions between introverted and extroverted activity. "But that's only text, you're not talking to people and seeing them like in real life." C'mon, I'm in an ambient Skype call with my girlfriend right now. We leave the thing on for hours at a time - yes, it's a way to cope with long-distance but also interesting because of how similar it really is to hanging out in the same room. "But you still can't feel or taste each other." No rebuttal... (and I'm _still_ waiting on that Linux driver for my smell-o- vision).

[1] Although it's so easy to think that your moment in history is unique. There are at least definite parallels between what's happening now with the web and past revolutions in publishing and communications, including the printing press, telephone, radio and television.

</comment><comment><USER19> Interesting read. I would add that, when it comes to learning, one size does not fit all.

See some research done by Richard Felder at NC State on different styles:

[http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/ILS...](http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/ILSdir/styles.htm)

Find out what your style is:

<http://www.engr.ncsu.edu/learningstyles/ilsweb.html>

Effects of learning style in the context of engineering education:

[http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/Pap...](http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/Papers/LS-1988.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER20> I don't agree with all points, however, the first one is so true.

By understanding the basics, it gives you the ability to understand the rest so much easier.

You can also easily seek help from others because they know you've taken the time to understand the basic and aren't searching for a quick-and-dirty answer to your problem.

It also help to motivate yourself since you know that even thought you haven't mastered everything, you've mastered __something __and that's really important. It's a bit like building a small system incrementally.. even if it sucks, the first version gives a huge momentum to the overall project.</comment>


What if more central banks buy foreign equities like the Swiss central bank? - <AUTHOR> What if more central banks start buying foreign equities like the Swiss central bank ?   Or if the Bank of Japan decides to start buying us companies.  Or the fed starts buying Chinese companies ?<p>Could the us just buy foreign companies instead of putting tariffs on them, making the same amount of money either way ? <comment><USER2> The point of punitive tariffs isn't to make money, but to punish.

If you buy their equity you haven't punished them but lowered their capital costs (more demand for their limited equity, driving their borrowing costs down and stock price up)</comment>


Your bank hates you - <AUTHOR> http://www.dilbert.com/blog/entry/your_bank_hates_you/

<comment><USER2> Well, not long ago npr ran a story on bank charges.

The surprising thing that one analyst presented amounted basically to: Bank _lose_ money on unsecured loans (credit cards), so they _have_ to make up the difference somewhere - and a lot of that is by hitting us with every little extra charge they can dream up.

I would sure like to patronize a bank that chose instead to be choosier about the people to whom they extended unsecured credit - and then acted more civilly and sensibly toward the customers to whom it catered.

</comment><comment><USER3> He's with the wrong banks! My one lets me set up a monthly debit to pay off my credit card... sure it doesnt automatically remind me and cancel it if the current account is short of funds but it's halfway to what he wanted...

</comment><comment><USER4> I try not to think this way about the world, I'm sure it's not healthy. In fact, I think it's turned me into a jerk. But the more I see of banks, other companies, and politics, the less I trust anyone.</comment>


How I quadrupled my creative productivity in 2016 - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/the-mission/how-i-quadrupled-my-creative-productivity-in-2016-13fbdde5c4c3#.su05ougm3 <comment><USER2> "My most valuable mindset shift for 2016 was the realization that everyone wants a piece of your attention. They don't care whether it's good for you, and they'll stop at nothing to get it."

You're projecting, and it comes right through the tone of your writing. Let me guess, your #1 best buyers are millenials. All I see is me, me, me.

 _gag_

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much for your feedback Mr. Bieber. (I'm a big fan of your music, as are all of my customers).

Do you have any recommendations for me for whose writing I can study so that I can write humbly and I don't always make it about myself?</comment></comment>


Python Software Foundation Reaches Settlement, Ends Trademark Dispute - <AUTHOR> http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2013/03/python-software-foundation-reaches.html

<comment><USER2> What a pleasantly amicable settlement of what could have been a thorny issue. I get so used to people trying to abuse patents and trademarks I'm now shocked when they say "Oh, ok, I see what you mean, fine we'll do this differently."

<comment><USER3> Yea, it's nice to see. Though the cynical side of my brain is thinking that Veber backed down because they knew their customer base is basically all techies and they might not want to piss them off. If Veber was in a different business line and had branded and trademarked let's say their line of high performance tyres, I think they might not have backed down so readily.

Still glad it worked out, Veber deserves credit for that no matter the ultimate motive.

Edit: Guess I'm mistaken, thanks for the correction duskwuff

<comment><USER4> If the trademark application had been for tyres, the issue wouldn't have arisen at all.

Trademarks are usually registered for a specific category of goods or services -- hence, we can have Monster energy drinks and Monster.com job search and Monster cables all trademarked by different companies, since they're all different categories. The issue here was that Veber was trying to register a "Python" trademark that would have conflicted with the PSF's existing use of the name.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Was this a financial settlement? If yea, how much did PSF had to pay? The post doesn't talk about it.

<comment><USER6> The details of the settlement are not public.

-press release author

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Well, that's some free advertising/exposure.

I don't believe they are in the hosting business and don't know what Python is. They're either idiots or at the contrary, quite clever. Had they gone through with it though, they might have suffered a bit of wrath from some anonymous pythonistas... I could see it happen. :-D

<comment><USER4> They're definitely in the hosting business. Either that, or they've put a heck of a lot of effort into making it look like they are. :P

<http://veber.co.uk/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The wording "Python software language" from the PR kind of makes me think that their business folks do indeed not know what Python is.

Either way, great that this got settled pretty quickly :)

</comment><comment><USER9> Can someone explain to me why anyone would want to sue the python foundation? I mean, maybe if the company was unrelated to programming... but a hosting company? Wouldn't they know?

<comment><USER10> [The CEO]confirmed that he'd not involved any technical staff in the decisions he'd made about the Python product brand, and told me he regretted that as it would probably have helped him understand the likely reaction to his trademark challenge.

Source: [http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon- says/2013/02/respondi...](http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon- says/2013/02/responding-to-pythons-batsignal/index.htm)

Discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5248328></comment></comment>


Birgitta Jonsdottir on why Iceland is not a good destination for Snowden - <AUTHOR> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rkvqor

<comment><USER2> This is an interesting point:

 _the Minister fears that if he will be granted asylum, Iceland might have to show humanitarianism in action by transforming its poor treatment towards asylum seekers who seek shelter in Iceland_

While Iceland is generally liberal on social issues, they've traditionally been quite closed on immigration. That's partly been helped by their geographic isolation, but in recent years there has been an increase in refugees attempting to claim asylum in Iceland (e.g. fleeing the Syrian civil war), and Iceland has generally not granted those requests. So perhaps they are worried that if they start granting some kinds of political asylum they will have to grant others to be consistent.

<comment><USER3> > _While Iceland is generally liberal on social issues, they 've traditionally > been quite closed on immigration._

Should they be more open, though?

They have a nice society going on, their way of life, customs and traditions, they want to keep having them. Would an influx of immigrants help?

It's not like every place is like the US (a vast country with room to spare, composed by tons of different ethnicities, living on the land of the previous inhabitants, and with a powerful enough economy to assimilate a lot of immigrants). Not to mention: the US immigrants came to the place in ages of SLOW transportation and over a period of 400 years (with some ramping up in the 20th century). Nowadays, especially in Europe, immigration ramps up in a couple of decades or less. And, given the huge numbers, they don't even need to be assimilated that much -- if you can work in a place with millions of fellow X-speaking immigrants, and easy access to websites, tv etc in your language, why bother to learn english or change your habits at all?

Consider a thought experiment: would the US be OK with an influx of 100, 200 or 300 million immigrants from islamic countries? Not terrorists, mind you. Just normal folks, that, nonetheless, would soon wish their practices and mindset be respected and reflected in laws (and, since they would be able to vote, it would be): from the right to beat their wives or persecute gays, to refusing education to their daughters? And even darker stuff like "honour killings" that would be sure to want to bring to their new country?

Now, 30% is a lot to be realistic. But if immigration was "open to all", it wouldn't be that far off. Especially since, in the US, almost 100% are immigrants anyway (just over the course of centuries, not over the course of a decade or so). There are places in Europe where the immigrant population rose to 10% or 20% in a course of a couple decades.

<comment><USER4> > nonetheless, would soon wish their practices and mindset be respected and > reflected in laws (and, since they would be able to vote, it would be): from > the right to beat their wives or persecute gays, to refusing education to > their daughters? And even darker stuff like "honour killings" that would be > sure to want to bring to their new country?

What is this bigoted nonsense doing on HN?

Those of you upvoting this should be ashamed of yourselves.

PS. Most Muslims don't want to beat their wives or deny their daughters an education, nor do they want to engage in 'honor killings. If you think they do, you probably also think that the Westboro Baptist Church is an adequate proxy for average Christian beliefs.

<comment><USER3> > _What is this bigoted nonsense doing on HN?_

I was about to ask something similar. What is your comment, a content-free mix of accusations and insults, doing in HN?

As for your accusations:

What exactly is "bigoted" about what I wrote? People from cultural backgrounds less developed with regards to women's issues (as one example), don't magically become tolerant and feminist when they immigrate to another country.

Honour killings are a real thing -- I can point you to tons of articles on the issue. Here's an example: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyunVoRKL8k](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyunVoRKL8k)

And they are related to muslim communities [that's what the police reports say]. Europeans, especially in rural areas, might have done similar things back in the day (nearly a century ago), but not many (actually none) modern Italians, Frenchmen, Dutch etc even consider the notion appropriate, much less practice such things as honour killings in 2013.

> _PS. Most Muslims don 't want to beat their wives or deny their daughters an > education, nor do they want to engage in 'honor killings'._

Did anybody say it was "most muslims" doing it? And does it have to be 51% or close for it to matter? I don't even want 5% doing it.

Not to mention that there ARE muslim countries in which most people DO "deny their daughters and education".

But besides those things there are other issues, such as: the role of women, attitudes towards sex and sexual imagery, attitudes towards civic law, freedom of speech (including religious satire), etc. If they were totally OK with civic law in a democratic society, they wouldn't push for separate religious (sharia) courts in Western countries.

> _Those of you up-voting this should be ashamed of yourselves._

Condescending, pro-censorship and abusive. That's your answer to my "bigotry"?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I will take all of this at face value, but the greater point is something that she mentioned at the end; that the political smearing/prosecution of whistleblowers has to stop. Good on you Ms. Jonsdottir!

<comment> at-fates-hands As much as I'm for what he did and revealing the Prism program, he stopped being a whistleblower when he released top secret, classified documents.

There's a ton of different ways to prove what the NSA was doing without leaking a mountain of classified documents.

<comment><USER6> No, there wasn't any alternate way to do it.

Watch the three guys who tried to do it via official channels, explain why it doesnt work and why they think he did the right thing.

[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowd...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden- whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/)

<comment><USER7> One detail from that interview that didn't get much attention: when those guys went through official channels inside NSA and brought their allegations of wrongdoing to the Inspector General, the Inspector General recommended criminal prosecution _of them_. From the article:

 _Jesselyn Radack: Not only did they go through multiple and all the proper internal channels and they failed, but more than that, it was turned against them. ... The inspector general was the one who gave their names to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution under the Espionage Act._

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I disagree. It was Iceland which did not bail out its banks, said a nice "FU" to its foreign account holders and has now economic growth (Iceland expanded 4.60 percent in the first quarter of 2013 over the previous quarter).

It was also Iceland which gave Bobby Fisher a passport. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Asylum_in_Iceland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer#Asylum_in_Iceland)

You must give the vikings one thing: They've got balls!

Looks like a perfect destination for Snowden in my opinion.

<comment><USER5> I know very little, but on the surface, granting asylum for a chess player is a different beast than granting asylum for someone who dispelled NSA secrets.

<comment><USER9> And Fischer had brought world attention to Iceland during the famous chess match; in contrast, Snowden lacks even that tenuous connection.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't think he's facing the death penalty. According to this article he faces a maximum of 10 years on each charge:

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732368350457856...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323683504578562852310273818.html?mod=e2tw)

</comment><comment><USER11> Isn't it strange that the "most democratic" countries are the ones that will be the _first_ to offer him up to the US government?

<comment><USER12> Not really. During the cold war the vast majority of "democratic" countries were either allied with, or close trading partners with, the United States. This lead to the increasing strengthening of ties between both countries foreign intelligence services and judicial systems.

Given that the US has a _burn the fields_ type of policy with all but their largest trading partners, only the very large countries are able to use the case of Snowden to their advantage. Hong Kong was especially good, since it provided the best of both worlds: Very liberal media, with Chinese backing in terms of political pressure.

The only reason that _some_ small countries are able to afford long term sanction to Snowden and Assange, is that they are already antagonistic towards the United States, so there is nothing that the US can really take away from them.

Iceland is a bit a strange case since it is generally aligned with the west, but it hasn't really taken steps to integrate as closely as other countries, partially because of its isolation and Norway being a proxy for these decisions for so long. Ultimately though it isn't in Iceland's interests to take in Snowden, it will cause too much of a backlash.

<comment><USER11> Yes, I get why they aren't doing it _strategically_ , but they're supposed to be _democratic countries_ and protect this sort of stuff on its own merits, not depending on what's their relationship with the country where the whistleblower is coming from.

<comment><USER2> Most democratic countries have a very nation-state-oriented view of democracy, where it's a group of people who rule themselves democratically. That tends to lead towards emphasizing citizenship a lot, so e.g. many European countries would be _much_ stricter about conditions under which they'd extradite one of their own citizens. But Snowden isn't one of their citizens, so falls in a different category of basically "not our responsibility".</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How a bad RJ45 termination can ruin a cable - <AUTHOR> http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/terrible-terminations.htm <comment><USER2> "Most of us, if we do not deal in high-speed digital signalling, have a kind of "DC Circuits" understanding of wiring where the most important thing is simply that the wires connect the right points together."

An example of this is thinking that the order of wires in your crimps doesn't matter so long as it is consistent at both ends. This is emphatically not the case! Each twisted pair in a cat5 cable is intended to carry a signal and it's inverse. If you add a signal to it's inverse you should get nothing, but if noise has skewed both signal and inverse, the result of addition will be the isolated interference you need to subtract from your signal. Cat5 connections rely on this noise cancellation to work, as the wires used have little or no shielding. If you put wires into the wrong order so that signals are not paired with their inverses, this noise cancellation system is totally fubar'd and will likely make things worse than if there was no noise cancellation at all. It might work over a few meters, but longer cables are almost guaranteed to fail.

Pick a wiring standard (568-A or 568-B) and stick to it. If you do this, it's pretty hard to mess up anything else so badly that your cables won't work. Bluejeanscables is a cable manufacturer, so they're probably exaggerating how hard it is to make a good cable. In particular, their "buy american" schtick is not very applicable to cabling. Monoprice is functionally equivalent, even if it's from China.

Note: If you're wiring your home, be sure to use plenum grade cable. Other cables may be flammable and fire codes tend to disapprove of having flammable cords running through your home.

Also Note: I am not an electrician. I just found out the hard way by making bad cables for my home. If you buy one $50 spool of cable, $5 of terminations, and a $20 crimp tool you'll never have to pay for network cables again. I'm not sure if it would be worth it now, but it certainly was 10 years ago!

<comment><USER3> Wait. I didn't know this. They send inverse signals? Really? Does that mean that long cat-5 cables made with the wrong standard wont work on some equipment?!

<comment><USER4> You are mentioning two things. 1) yes, they send send signals, and their "inverse" over a pair of cables. That's guaranteed by the use of transformers on your network card/network switch. Current that the transformer sends in one line of a pair, has to be returned in the other pair.

[https://www.google.de/search?q=ethernet+transformer&tbm=isch](https://www.google.de/search?q=ethernet+transformer&tbm=isch)

On an old 10MBit or 100MBit/s card (10BaseT, 100BaseT) on each device there will be one pair to send data out, and one to receive data. This uses up 4 pins on your RJ45 connector, the other 2 are unused. The pair that is used on your network card to send out data are pins 1 and 2. The pair that is used on your network card to receive data is on pins 3 and 6.

The 2nd thing you mention are the two standards TIA/EIA-568 assigns colors to pins, and they have a version A and B where the colours of pair 1/2 and pair 3/6 are swapped.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIA/EIA-568](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIA/EIA-568)

Hence, when you have a cable where one side is wired according to "A" and the other is wired according to "B" you have something that, in the old days, was called a cross-cable, which you could use to directly connecto two computers with each other, without having a hub or switch in between. Which is very useful, especially if you'd connect e.g. two switches in two buildings with each other.

        Tx 568A               568B  Tx
     1  o---white----\   /---white---o
     2  o---green---- \ /----orange--o
                       X
     3  o---white---- / \----white---o
     6  o---orange---/   \---green---o
        Rx                          Rx

But because miswirings regarding the two color schemes were so frequent, and connecting routers/switches/computers directly using "straight" cables was so convenient, most devices manufactured after the 90s can swap these pairs internally automatically. Hence no matter if you have a strait or cross-cable, or a miswired 568A/B installation computers will just function fine.

With 1000BaseT (Gigabit-Ethernet) data is transmitted and received on all pairs simultaneously, and also this miswiring is automatically detected and taken into account.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Off topic, but I can't resist re-posting the following. It will bring tears of joy to anyone who hates patent trolls.

Blue Jeans Cable was mentioned on HN a few months ago in the context of Monster Cable sending them a letter threatening to sue them for patent and trademark infringement. An HN poster characterized their response letter to Monster Cable as: "That. letter. is. glorious."

Here are just a few snippets:

       if you file on this sort of basis, you are in
       Rule 11 frivolous-claim territory
       ...
       You are required, as a matter of legal ethics,
       to display good faith and professional candor
       in your dealings with adverse parties, and you
       have fallen miserably short of your ethical
       responsibilities
       ...
       Read the patents narrowly, and Monster loses;
       read them broadly, and Monster loses.
       ...
       I spent nineteen years in litigation practice
       ...
       I am "uncompromising" in the most literal sense
       of the word. If Monster Cable proceeds with
       litigation against me I will pursue the same
       merits-driven approach: I do not compromise with
       bullies and I would rather spend fifty thousand
       dollars on defense than give you a dollar of
       unmerited settlement funds.
       ...
       Not only am I unintimidated by litigation;
       I sometimes rather miss it.

[http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/](http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848842](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8848842)

</comment><comment><USER6> _But it 's a mistake to assume that just because network signals are electrical, any electrician is automatically qualified to put a network together._

This can't be stressed enough, especially when running horizontal cabling through buildings. We've had issues in taking ownership of network infrastructure that was installed by "reliable" electricians.

Some advice: Make sure that you keep a decent bend radius on the connections and that you're able to sustain (near) peak transfer over the connection. Cable testers and certifiers add to the confidence that you've got a solid connection. Modern switches will also report on CRC errors and issues that come from physical layer problems.

<comment><USER2> I once worked in an optics lab that had been really well planned. Each bench had network connections and optical fiber connections that go to each bench in each room of the lab. The idea was that you could build something in one room and send it's output to another room just by using the right fiber port on your bench. No need to string fiber optics along the floor and through doors!

Planning was undone by execution unfortunately. The installers claimed they had worked with fiber optics before and could do a great job. They installed the cat5 cables with such tight turns that only half of them work. The fiber optic cables had the same tight turns, and fiber is more sensitive to bends. The loss between benches just 4 meters apart is in excess of 30 dB! Totally unusable for practically all experiments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Hey, Blue Jeans Cable! These are the guys who told Monster Cable to get stuffed. Very nice way of dealing with a patent troll: [http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/response041408.pdf](http://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/response041408.pdf) transcribed at [http://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes- back](http://www.audioholics.com/news/blue-jeans-strikes-back) Best part: "Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it."

<comment><USER8> > "Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it."

Rather Reaganesque: If they think you're crazier than they are, they'll leave you alone.

(Note: Doesn't work if you have no way to hurt them and they know it, or if they're convinced you have no way to hurt them.)

<comment><USER9> Wasn't that Nixon rather than Reagan?

<comment><USER10> Yeap: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I just terminated a ton of CAT5e for security cameras and I can definitely see the margin of error begin high. It sucks to do, I feel like there should be an easier way to terminate them that doesn't involve carefully trying to align the right color combination and holding them steady enough to then align them in that same order with tiny slots on the plug.

<comment><USER12> Yes, the correct solution is structured cabling with punchdown jacks, punchdown patch panels, and commercially manufactured and certified patch and lobe cords. No one is going to pay commercial electrician rates, even lv, to futz around with a crimper, especially when one little plastic tab getting snapped off means a cable needs to be re terminated.

<comment><USER13> I have done a lot of punchdown jack connections, and a few crimp connections, and I have to agree that the punchdown connections (into a female jack which receives a patch cord, and the patch cord goes to the device) have been much more deterministic. It is rare when one does not work the first time.

I wasn't using structured cabling, just ordinary Cat5e cable.

But I think for a security camera, as in the parent comment, which may be getting PoE, the tidiest connection would use a crimp-down male RJ45. I would not enjoy being up on a ladder fussing with a crimping tool and 8 stubby wires.

<comment><USER14> Still better to put a jack (facing down!) into a surface mount box and patch into the camera. When you are working with outdoor gear, put the surface mount box into a waterproof jbox. Even if you are going into gear with a gasket that requires you to crimp an end on a patch cable, it's still better to do it this way. Jack-to-jack lasts so much longer and is so much more reliable, I will almost never allow crimped ends anywhere in my networks. Patch cables are a commodity, horizontal runs are an investment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Even home electrical circuits can have crosstalk.

People sometimes find that LEDs and even florescent lights glow dimly even with the switch off.

The is caused by magnetic induction in lines, which is in turn caused by not running the hot and neutral near each other.

</comment><comment><USER16> Another tip: Don't try to mix cat5 and 6 wire and connectors. The cat6 wire is larger, won't fit in the connectors for cat5, and the pins won't puncture the thicker insulation.

</comment><comment><USER17> doesn't show the after picture - if you're the author, please show... it kind of ruins the point of the article otherwise

</comment><comment><USER18> Another article on the same site (Blue Jeans Cable) makes the interesting point that some kinds of cable are more expensive not because they are better at reducing signal loss but because they are rated for more fire-resistance for certain kinds of installations.[1] The article points out that more expensive is not always better if by "better" you mean "less likely to distort the signal."

[1] "Good, Better, Best -- Or Not?"

[http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/good-better-best- or-n...](http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/good-better-best-or-not.htm)

</comment><comment><USER19> I've crimped some RJ45s for my own house, but always got wrong, and have to crimp 3 or more times to make it work (cut off connectors at both side, and re-crimp again). Any tips on it?

<comment><USER20> Does anyone know of affordable cable testing equipment? I.e. not the ones with 8 leds that just test whether there's a connection, but one that actually measures the performance? Fluke is way expensive, I imagine there must be cheaper products that don't provide all the features and build quality of Fluke but that will still give poor old me who only wires his own house and home office some assurance that I didn't screw up completely?

<comment><USER4> A Gigabit Ethernet PHY has to do quite some signal processing (line equalization) for its normal function. And there are a few chipsets that allow you to inspect the link parameters in quite some detail. For example, have a look here for screenshots of the broadcom advanced control suite.

[https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~brecht/servers/docs/PowerEdge-2600/...](https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~brecht/servers/docs/PowerEdge-2600/en/Broadcom/UG/trouble.htm)

The link has to run in 1000BaseT-Mode to make the tools show any meaningful output, so have a known-good switch connected to the "other" side. I had used them in a distant past (must have been 10 years ago or so) to find the "best" links in an otherwise messed up building installation that could be reliabily be used for higher transmission speeds.

It's of course much less information that what you'd get from a proper ethernet cable analyzer, but much, much more than what a simple "yes, I can ping the other side" can give you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Absolutely fascinating. I've been crimping my own RJ45s for a while now, surprised that I'm not quite getting the speed I'd hoped for with CAT6. Lesson learned. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER22> The test equipment required for cable testing is expensive. Entry level from Fluke is CableIQ at $1200. Fluke cable testers go up to about $45K.

</comment><comment><USER23> I don't find this article particularly convincing; in fact it feels suspiciously to me like the same sort of technical arguments made by some "premium audiophile cable" vendors. The fact that your fancy test equipment can detect significant differences between your cables and others' is not necessarily correlated with how well they actually work in practice. This doesn't look like one of those truly insane companies who sell $1500/m cables to a niche audience, but they're using some of the same techniques...

The fact that differences can be seen in the analogue domain is also not a direct correspondence to how the cable will perform digitally. Ethernet is digital, and as long as the signals pass the thresholds at the receiver, there will be no difference.

The most unusual thing here is that _they didn 't mention at all whether they actually solved any of the problems the customer originally had_, which would be the true validator of their theory. (If they did, wouldn't it be a great thing to mention?) "Network performance issues" are vague - I was expecting to see tests of throughput/packet loss between the original and reterminated cables.

Edit: downvotes. Care to explain...?

<comment><USER5> I hate downvotes. I usually upvote when I think someone has been unfairly downvoted. I _very_ _rarely_ downvote, and yet I was one of your downvoters.

It's clear that you're "ignorant" of the black magic involved in high speed communication. I felt that your post amounted to "I don't understand this stuff ... therefore it is probably a scam".

As others have pointed out to you, at high enough speeds things become very analog instead of digital. You can literally fit entire Ethernet packets into a twisted pair cable. Packets can be short enough that they exist completely "in the wire". That's a lot different than what a "premium audiophile cable" does.

If you ever want to learn just how much "black magic" there is, read Howard Johnson's books.[1] The information is somewhat dated, nowadays things are even weirder.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Johnson_%28electrical_e...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Johnson_%28electrical_engineer%29)

<comment><USER23> _It 's clear that you're "ignorant" of the black magic involved in high speed communication. I felt that your post amounted to "I don't understand this stuff ... therefore it is probably a scam"._

"ignorant"? That's _really_ jumping to conclusions...

I've worked with DDR, DDR2, PCI, PCIe, and USB (2.0 only, but that's still 480MHz), in mass-produced designs. Also some proprietary busses operating in the 600-800MHz range. It doesn't have to be perfect. That is what is so great about digital signaling.

My post is more of a "I know from experience how much you can get away with, and fancy test equipment that can tell the difference does not always reflect how something performs in practice."

On the other hand, I won't comment on high-frequency _true analogue_ stuff like microwave/RF.

<comment><USER5> I see the point that you and 'parennoob' are making. The word "ignorant" was a poor choice on my part.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Chinese websites defaced by Anonymous - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-17623939

<comment><USER2> Subtle. I'm sure that many Chinese Internet users are saying: "thank you for shutting off access to this website I want to access, and providing me with this useful and interesting information, in a totally non-patronizing way".

<comment><USER3> Worse, as stated in the article, is that the message is in English, which many people won't even be able to read.

<comment><USER4> There is a Chinese phrase in the BBC article's screenshot. But that's irrelevant to whatever Anonymous's intensions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I am chinese and none of these sites made any sense to me. looks like anons just hacked a bunch of spam sites, low profile and irrelevant.

</comment><comment><USER6> Some background on the situation in China, a commentary article "Chinese leaders cling to an illusion of stability"

[http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/146187235.ht...](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/146187235.html)

by Joel Brinkley, Hearst Visiting Professional in Residence in the Department of Communication at Stanford University.

<comment><USER7> What this article described is very true. The communists party ordered the creation of an organization called "Stability Office" in every level of the government and state-run corporations, responsible for suppressing all kinds of protests and muting or jailing dissidents. The "Stability Office" has the power to mobilize all kinds of resources including police, state security, military to achieve its goals. Its annual budget is never released but is believed to be even bigger than the annual military expense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's not surprising to see a dozen Chinese government websites were on top of the list at Pastebin. In fact, 90% of the sites whose webmasters were not security-aware: pirated Windows with IIS installed a few crappy ASP pages slapped together.

Despite their "righteous" self-claim, hacking those amateur sites are really uncalled for and they are still a bunch of criminals no different. It will NOT change the fact that government will continue do censorships and more countries will follow shoes to do more of them. It's sad but true. FYI, a lot of the blocking & filtering are done on the Internet backbone routers made by Cisco. Worst yet, Tor is not effective any more as seen on yesterday's HN here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3793320>

<comment><USER8> I would have rather seen the hacking done from within China, with messages in readable, relevant Chinese. It probably would have been far more powerful as a statement. Under those circumstances, I'd find it hard to call it criminal; it would be civil disobedience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Damn, they couldn't spend a few minutes to look up Chinese language information?

<comment><USER10> Seriously, almost 500 sites hacked and they didn't do it in a language their users would be able to read. Massive waste.

<comment><USER11> Allow me to introduce you to the phrase 'For the lulz.'

I doubt most people operating under the Anonymous banner are all that different than the general population and just don't give a damn about what happens in China, or anywhere outside their back yard for that matter. But lulz, that's just awesome.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is actually pretty "smart". Reaching out to ordinary Chinese is incredibly hard due to the heavy censorship.

Hacking a bunch of sites and displaying a message is the most effective way of spreading a message to a lot of ordinary middle class Chinese people I can think of. It's not like you can put up big banners everywhere.

</comment><comment><USER13> Unnecessary.</comment>


Open-Source Slack Alternative Mattermost Gets $50M Funding - <AUTHOR> https://itsfoss.com/mattermost-funding/ <comment><USER2> The mattermost-server licensing[0] is somewhat skeptic:

Mattermost Licensing

SOFTWARE LICENSING

You are licensed to use compiled versions of the Mattermost platform produced by Mattermost, Inc. under an MIT LICENSE

\- See MIT-COMPILED-LICENSE.md included in compiled versions for details

You may be licensed to use source code to create compiled versions not produced by Mattermost, Inc. in one of two ways:

1\. Under the Free Software Foundation's GNU AGPL v.3.0, subject to the exceptions outlined in this policy; or

2\. Under a commercial license available from Mattermost, Inc. by contacting firstname.lastname@example.com

You are licensed to use the source code in Admin Tools and Configuration Files (templates/, config/default.json, model/, plugin/ and all subdirectories thereof) under the Apache License v2.0.

So that means, only the binary provided by Mattermost is MIT, not its source code, the usage of 'MIT' in their website sounds deceiving.

[0] [https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost- server/blob/master/...](https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost- server/blob/master/LICENSE.txt)

<comment><USER3> It is a bit unusual, but ultimately it's similar to the quite common "you can have the code under AGPL or negotiate something else with us" plus something unusual, i.e. a MIT-licensed binary.

Ultimately if you're okay with running AGPL code you're okay with running Mattermost. Which means as long as you don't intend to fork it and not share your changes you should be fine.

<comment><USER2> > Ultimately if you're okay with running AGPL code you're okay with running > Mattermost. Which means as long as you don't intend to fork it and not share > your changes you should be fine.

That's not how [LA]GPL works. You are free to fork, and not share the changes. The modified source code can be provided only to the people whom you gave the binary (Edit: AGPL has bit more terms, as said in comment below), and you can make it private to the rest of the world (though you can't add additional restrictions).

As Mattermost is dual licensed under AGPL, anyone who uses it under the terms of AGPL can live safe as long as they obey AGPL.

Software pieces using GPL licenses can't add additional restrictions to the software, but of course authors are free to dual license under different terms.

Say for example some one can specify the following for their project: "We provides the project under the terms of MIT for you to modify and run for your own purposes." This might look a harmless statement, but it could mean something very different and may be intentionally written, that essentially makes it non-free. GPL doesn't allow such additional clauses.

Disclosure: IANAL. So I don't know how/if it works in court

<comment><USER4> > AGPLv3 requires a program to offer source code to "all users interacting > with it remotely through a computer network." It doesn't matter if you call > the program a "client" or a "server," the question you need to ask is > whether or not there is a reasonable expectation that a person will be > interacting with the program remotely over a network.

From [https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- faq.html#AGPLv3ServerAsUser](https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- faq.html#AGPLv3ServerAsUser)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We recently switched from Slack to Mattermost and love it. My only gripe is that replies show up in the main room thread which makes catching up on posts almost impossible.

There is a request to implement collapsible threads[0] but I haven't seen any new updates address this.

I'm hoping this new funding round amps up a few developers to take on this much-needed feature.

[0] [https://mattermost.uservoice.com/forums/306457-general/sugge...](https://mattermost.uservoice.com/forums/306457-general/suggestions/19572469-make- threads-collapsible)

<comment><USER6> Interesting, that's actually one of my biggest complaints in _Slack_. If a discussion should be public, it should be visible. Threads in Slack are a pain to pay attention to because they're "hidden" from view in the main channel. I appreciate how MM keeps threaded messages in the channel.

<comment><USER7> This is the biggest thing blocking us from moving from Slack to MM. With Slack you have the option of replying to a message in the channel and keeping it fully visible, just by replying in the main chat, so why don't you just do that and not use threads?

<comment><USER8> > so why don't you just do that and not use threads?

Sometimes multiple topics are being discussed at the same time in the same channel, threads are helpful here.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> When open source projects get VC funding, it makes me trust them less. Eventually, the investors are going to want their money back with a profit. When that happens, the companies are going to try to monetize their offering often in ways that are detrimental to the open source project.

<comment><USER10> _Any_ VC funded company gives me this feeling.

Twitter scaled up ads a whole lot to become solvent.

Moviepass went from an amazing deal to an okay one.

Netflix's content catalog and price went from great to okay.

Facebook went from "Myspace but with photos" to the massive advertising machine it is today.

The great-for-users but usually lossy beginnings of these companies are a play to acquire users, so they can pull the profit switch later on.

<comment><USER11> FWIW Moviepass never had a sustainable business model. They were loosing a lot of money from the get-go.

<comment><USER12> Arguably many VC funded companies don't have a sustainable model...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Sincere question: what's the point of GitLab or Mattermost being open source when they clearly want to control/restrict/monopolize use of their applications?

IIRC GitLab is "open core" which just means it's not fully open source and Mattermost is not really fully open source either, it its own confusing way.

The purpose of open source was to give users full and unrestricted power. To free them from lock in and allow them to be the masters of the software they use.

It seems that these companies view open source as a marketing trick and perhaps a way to save on development costs. They're making a mockery of open source and should probably be shunned for it.

<comment><USER14> > what's the point of GitLab or Mattermost being open source when they clearly > want to control/restrict/monopolize use of their applications?

\- We can fork it if we really don't like that direction, but think what's there is valuable.

\- We can propose Merge Requests (as they are on GitLab) that might be higher priority for us personally than for the company, which might accept them just not have the resources to work on them itself as quickly as we'd like.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm pretty amazed at the number of chat offerings that don't offer encryption. (From a quick Google search it seems Mattermost doesn't either.) I'm still holding out for Matrix to deliver (I know it's currently working for some people), but my understanding is that it's not enabled by default yet: [https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/6779](https://github.com/vector- im/riot-web/issues/6779)

<comment><USER16> Work is underway at IETF on MLS for E2E encrypted group messaging, [https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/](https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/)

<comment><USER17> We're looking at MLS for Matrix too. The only reason E2E isn't enabled by default on Matrix today is E2E-enabled search isn't finished yet

<comment><USER18> I thought you were also waiting for cross-signing (which seems to have progressed quite well) to land?

Isn't E2E search mostly a client-side matter? Unless using homomorphic encryption, of course, which I don't think OLM is capable of?

Or are you planning on using another trick, similar to hashing the strings client-side when a new message is received, then sending the hashs and later searching those server-side?

I'm curious since I haven't seen that mentioned other than using pantalaimon as some kind of server-side search engine. I can ask or discuss this further in matrix(-spec):matrix.org as needed/preferred.

<comment><USER17> Cross-signing is basically there at the SDK & server level; just needs the UX to be added into Riot, but we prioritised [https://matrix.org/blog/2019/06/30/tightening-up-privacy- in-...](https://matrix.org/blog/2019/06/30/tightening-up-privacy-in-matrix/) so running a few weeks behind.

E2E search is entire client-side, and works thanks to [https://github.com/matrix- org/pantalaimon/tree/search](https://github.com/matrix- org/pantalaimon/tree/search). We're not doing homomorphic stuff; instead we're thinking about encrypting the tantivy indexes and storing them serverside.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> What blows my mind about Mattermost is the server requirements... for what essentially is a message broker, you have need a multi-gig box for a deployment that can support 8 people. Part of the problem is their tech stack.

<comment><USER20> Generally the requirements depend on factors like network speeds and estimated storage usage per user. Here's more information on Mattermost hardware requirements: [https://docs.mattermost.com/install/requirements.html#hardwa...](https://docs.mattermost.com/install/requirements.html#hardware- requirements)

Would love to learn more if you have concerns about server hardware requirements.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Is there an open source slack alternative that's simple to setup? I'd settle for just a react gui with the nice screens.

The trend of commercial open source apps to be a major PITA to deploy & hack on is kind of tiresome imo.

<comment><USER22> [https://github.com/mozilla/mattermost- heroku/](https://github.com/mozilla/mattermost-heroku/)

Go hit this "Deploy to Heroku" button.

Alternatively, Mattermost also has a Docker container: [https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost- docker](https://github.com/mattermost/mattermost-docker)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> If you need on-prem and LDAP but don't want to pay, check Zulip. We evaluated Mattermost, but its LDAP is not free.

<comment><USER24> Slightly bothersome, but you can use gitlab as a SSO provider for mattermost, and gitlab can be easily (free) integrated with LDAP.

<comment><USER25> From [https://docs.mattermost.com/deployment/sso- gitlab.html](https://docs.mattermost.com/deployment/sso-gitlab.html)

> Only the default GitLab SSO is officially supported. "Double SSO", where > GitLab SSO is chained to other SSO solutions, is not supported. It may be > possible to connect GitLab SSO with AD, LDAP, SAML, or MFA add-ons in some > cases, but because of the special logic required they're not officially > supported and are known not to work on some experiences. If having official > AD, LDAP, SAML or MFA support is critical to your enterprise, please > consider Mattermost Enterprise Edition as an option.

<comment><USER26> Odd statement. Works like a charm for us with AD backed SSO on GitLab.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I see a lot of cool Slack competitors. Including Keybase Teams. But raising $50M seems like a lot for an open source one!

It makes me hopeful that we will be able to raise that kind of money soon for our platform. We also have AGPL dual license. However, our goal is more ambitious: we built a platform ([https://qbix.com/platform](https://qbix.com/platform)) to let ANYONE build their OWN social apps and plugins, and then let communities host them. Like Wordpress + Plugins but for Web 2.0 (think Facebook rather than blogs).

I imagine building a Slack competitor would take about a month of focused work. And then anyone would be able to install it, on one machine.

But, we spent all these years building the tech and doing security audits. What are your recommendations business-wise, to take it from here to getting funding like this? (Without compromising the vision.)

</comment><comment><USER28> I find rocketchat a much better match and the mobile version also work very well.

<comment><USER29> Some things I have issues with rocketchat is the insane amount of node_modules, random crashes, uses mongodb, and it's a pain to customize

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I am very disappointed by Slack decision to remove screen sharing. We won't be paying customers from now on.

Screenhero was an awesome product. I don't get why they are killing it.

<comment><USER12> Screen sharing products seem to be finicky or massive out of control and hard to use apps.

Maybe there is a technical reason screen sharing is so wonky.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> We are using Mattermost for over a year at work, and I would love to get a native client for their app, even a bare bones one. Currently running it with [https://github.com/EionRobb/purple- mattermost](https://github.com/EionRobb/purple-mattermost) but something more supported would be great

<comment><USER32> you mean like... the official dekstop client @ [https://github.com/mattermost/desktop](https://github.com/mattermost/desktop) ?

<comment><USER33> It's odd that that page refers to the desktop client as "native". The parts of an electron app that are native to the OS (as opposed to the OS-independent HTML/JS) are irrelevant to most people's desire for "native" apps.

Electron is not native.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> As someone who uses their self hosted version day in and out, best wishes to them!

</comment><comment><USER35> What about a Open Source Slack competitor that is funded by shorting Slack stock?

<comment><USER36> It's not a zero-sum game. Both can keep growing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Does Mattermost support drawing on screen share? It is one of the killer features for me in Slack, and at some point Google Hangouts had it but removed it, and Meet does not have it.

</comment><comment><USER38> We've been using a combination of Discord / Telegram / Google Meet instead of Slack and haven't had any problems. There are lots of great alternatives out there.

<comment><USER39> I'm no slack advocate, but you just described using three services to replace one. There will be some extra mental overhead to such a setup, even if it is not huge. I think something like mattermost carries the advantage of one service, one interface, one place for things; it's a little easier than "oh, in which did I put that?".

<comment><USER40> They also just described 3 services where you don't own the data.

<comment><USER38> You DEFINITELY don't own your Slack data

<comment><USER40> Which is a selling point for applications like RocketChat and Mattermost.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> If anyone from Mattermost is listening, it would be wonderful if they offered the whitelabel deployment (for SSO) of apps as a service. For a startup without any presence on the Apple or Google app stores or specific mobile needs, it would be amazing to have someone package that up for enterprise customers and take care of keeping the app up to date.

<comment><USER42> Why would Mattermost do this and not a specific provider?

<comment><USER41> That depends on what you mean by "provider", I suppose. Google is not going to be interested in doing this, I suppose a consultancy or MSP could offer this as a service if they resell Mattermost, but I don't know if Mattermost has that sort of sales network or system.

On the other hand, for enterprise plan users it would make sense to rely on Mattermost for app distribution, and they have the expertise to publish the apps and ensure they're approved in the respective stores. Would a reseller or MSP necessarily have that competency? I come from the IT world where the answer would definitely be "no", but I could see it being part of contracted out work. Who owns the app then after that contract is up?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> You mean a company monetizing an open source project gets funding. Why do we persist in the 1-1 OSS project-company mapping fallacy

<comment><USER44> In this specific case, isn't it the Mattermost company that funds most of the development of the OSS project ?

<comment><USER43> Yeah, this is true in a lot of cases. But it seems to go against the spirit of open source and turn it into a shared source model... maybe that's fine, but it ends up with people using open source as a marketing vehicle to attract developers rather than being truly "free and open source" where governance and viability isn't tied to a single company's fate.

<comment><USER45> If it has an open source license, it is 100% truly "free and open source". That's a good thing, not a bad thing! There's nothing magic about foundations or volunteer organizations that make some things more open sourcey than others. That's the beauty of it, the lifetime of the code isn't bound to the lifetime of whoever made it, for whatever reason they chose to make it or stop making it. It's just the license, not who wrote the software, and not why they wrote it. Everyone gets the benefit of their labors regardless.

Volunteer communities and nonprofits are no silver bullet either- they're great when they exist and function well, but they don't always, and are highly dependent on who's involved, how much, and why. If there's a big, strong, vibrant community behind something, that's a good sign for whatever that thing is, but very few projects rise to that level of centrality in people's lives. There's also no shortage of projects without funding which have terrible or nonexistent communities surrounding them. Usually good communities arise during the long tail of maturity, like years or decades after whatever it is has reached a plateau of collective usefulness. Good software leads to good communities, sometimes, eventually, but it generally doesn't go the other direction. Something has to be great for years before it becomes that critical and that supported of a piece of infrastructure. That's why it's good that open source is only a factor of the license, not who made it, not who maintains it, not why they maintain it, and not how it's funded. That's literally what is special about it and makes open source a useful and good thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I wonder if anyone is working on a discord/slack-like app based on janus (the rtc server that powers slack, i think).

</comment><comment><USER47> I don't get it. What's the need for an open source slack alternative?

<comment><USER48> Unlimited message retention. Different bells and whistles.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> I feel like someone could corner the market just by making tab complete that works as well as IRC did and adding a full dark theme to the desktop client.

</comment><comment><USER50> I'm using Mattermost for communicating with one team and I absolutely hate it. It feels so completely unfinished, like it's some kind of proof-of-concept? I don't mean to diss on Mattermost, I'm actually very excited to see them getting funding as Slack has like their name implies: slacking. What has Slack done over these past few years? Exactly, nothing! I don't mean that good software needs to keep updating, no not at all. It's just Slack can improve so much and it's just sitting there. I am really looking forward to replacing Slack with something else.

For all of the people going to suggest Matrix or something else to me, hold your breath. The reason I haven't switched is because communities haven't switched and neither have companies.</comment>


Woolly mammoth on the verge of resurrection, scientists say - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/16/woolly-mammoth-resurrection-scientists <comment><USER2> The creature, sometimes referred to as a "mammophant", would be partly elephant, but with features such as small ears, subcutaneous fat, long shaggy hair and cold-adapted blood. The mammoth genes for these traits are spliced into the elephant DNA using the powerful gene-editing tool, Crispr.</comment>