VPN crackdown 'unthinkable' trial by firewall for China's research world - <AUTHOR> http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2103793/vpn-crackdown-unthinkable-trial-firewall-chinas <comment><USER2> Another bad thing about GFW is that Chinese government can export the filtering infrastructure to other countries who also favor the idea of "cyberspace sovereignty". They might have been doing this already.

Also, VPNs are mostly used by academic institutions and corporations. Common netizens often use "Shadowsocks", a protocol that focuses on obfuscation rather than encryption, to make it more difficult for the Wall to recognize its pattern, hence more unlikely to be filtered. It has been working perfectly for 5+ years until recently some people were saying that their Shadowsocks traffic got recognized by the police, then ISP suspended their Internet, they had to visit the police station to sign a commitment of "never use unauthorized means to access Internet" to resume their Internet connection.

This could be "fake news" but still worrisome because if GFW will whitelist only registered VPN servers, and now that Shadowsocks is down, there will be no alternatives.

That said, this is only a concern of probably less than 1% of people. The others either don't know the existence of the Wall, or don't care about the world outside the Wall. In that sense, GFW is already a success.

<comment><USER3> From this link it looks like Russia is a customer already. [0]

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/putin-china- in...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/29/putin-china-internet- great-firewall-russia-cybersecurity-pact)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've tended to think that determined people can get full Internet access in China because people can get around the firewall, and the Chinese government wouldn't want the economic hit associated with blocking the Internet altogether.

Lately, though, it sounds like the government is making gains on the technical workarounds. So, maybe the most effective sort of activism right now would be to produce something that the Chinese government wants to exist, which can't exist without VPN traffic.

<comment><USER5> Hypothetically, if you start a VPN business with a large pool of random ipv6 addresses and assign each customer one of those, could that be a start as a work-around?

<comment><USER6> No as they do DPI and protocol detection so they would shut down your users pretty quickly. There was more about this on 32C3, I think this is the correct link: [https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7196-how_the_great_firewall_disc...](https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7196-how_the_great_firewall_discovers_hidden_circumvention_servers)

<comment><USER5> Sorry for not watching your video. Could you give a ELI5 explanation of why some vpns still work now if they have this tech?

<comment><USER7> What about data stenography? I've heard of people using DNS packets to transmit HTTP data.

<comment><USER8> Imagine tracking a "raw data sent vs raw data received" for every host your network talks to. What _should_ DNS look like?

Now imagine tunneling all your network traffic over that DNS server, independent of how you encode it, you still need to send the bits to and fro.

How does that change the sent/received profile?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I was reading the article I thought that this kind of issues don't apply only to China. If people focus on workarounds instead of addressing problems they get burned when the workarounds don't work anymore.

<comment><USER10> Yes. It's a kind of technical debt. If you are offered a job in china, you can't just assume that you'll be able to work around all the gfw problems; even your work might be forced to give up their unfiltered connection eventually.

Any other place that has similar restrictions must be treated the same.

<comment> MachinShinn- I live part of the year in a country that regularly filters the internet. I've had no issue so far using VPNs, but I prefer to tunnel directly through the PCs I have running 24/7 in my US office. Would tunneling work in China or does the Great Firewall prevent that too? I'm curious because there may come a day when I need better workarounds myself.

<comment><USER11> It's pretty sophisticated at detecting tunnels, but presumably still possible to evade. This post was on HN recently:

[http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great- firewal...](http://blog.zorinaq.com/my-experience-with-the-great-firewall-of- china/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> > "Universities – which fall under the control of Communist Party committees – > have repeatedly been told to maintain purity in their socialist ideology, > including steering clear of teaching topics such as press freedom and civil > rights."

This isn't new or anything, but every time I read about it, I find myself really angry. The behavior of the Chinese communist party is shockingly, disgustingly immoral.

Blocking information because it might undermine the grip your ideological brainwashing has on a population. It really is a sort of fundamental evil, a primary stain on the history of the human species.

I have some anecdotal stories from friends in China. It's actually quite a bit worse for the average academic than we think. The pressure to include communist party propaganda in one's research is incredibly strong – and in some cases mandatory (e.g. if you want funding).

<comment><USER13> That reminds me of academia in USSR, where all students, no matter what they were studying, had mandatory subjects like scientific communism and marxism- leninism; and your thesis, no matter if it's about literature, agronomy, astronomy or math had better describe its relevance for the proletariat and communism if it's to be defended.

Some of these preambles (can't link because that all is pre-internet) are quite funny from the modern context (especially those linking abstract sciences e.g. math to the party propaganda), but were treated as quite serious back then.

<comment><USER14> Marxism is still a mandatory subject in China. In one instance the exam date for a course I was taking as an exchange student had to be changed because some of the PhD students might have missed their examination on Marxism otherwise.

<comment><USER15> I really wonder how contemporary Chinese students square the information from their Marxism class with what Chinese society is like today. Does the Marxism class teach real Marxism or "Marxism with Chinese characteristics"? Granted, it's doubtful most students pay much attention to it anyway, since they just need to memorize the info and regurgitate it on the exam.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In some ways it might be good if they do manage to block VPNs. At least then people won't have any option other than to put real pressure on the government to give up their ridiculous censorship.

<comment><USER17> It's the other way around, censorship makes it harder to pressure governments.

<comment><USER16> That's not what I'm saying...

The censorship is already there, and the government is hard to pressure. What I'm saying is that blocking VPNs will make more people put pressure on the government. Right now there is very little pressure, so they can get away with it. Can they get away with it if a large percentage of highly educated and well connected people are very strongly opposed to it and can't do their jobs properly?

<comment><USER18> > Can they get away with it if a large percentage of highly educated and well > connected people are very strongly opposed to it and can't do their jobs > properly?

Well, Mao certainly could during the cultural revolution.

<comment><USER19> Not repeating the cultural revolution is one of the top priorities of the Chinese government now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's very likely this will all lighten up after the National Congress in the Fall.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_National_Congress_of_the_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_National_Congress_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China)

<comment><USER21> How so? I don't know the people or forces involved.

<comment><USER22> Authoritarian-in-chief Xi Jinping will be reelected for a second term during the Congress. Since various factions within the CCP are at war (with Xi having initiated very public takedowns that crossed a few lines), they don't want the slightest chance of a hint of uncontrolled rumors, and all media will be under increased lockdown.

Unlike GP I'm not sure the situation will improve all that much post-Congress, though.

<comment><USER21> Yeah, that doesn't sound promising at all. The guy who instituted this bullshit to cement his power will remain in power, but maybe he'll loosen up? That doesn't sound like any authoritarian ever.

<comment><USER23> The point is that any kind of attempt at weakening his grip on power is more likely to come before the congress. Assuming he comes out of the congress with his people in all key positions, he has very little to fear afterwards.

It's very possible he won't lighten up on the control, but it's also very possible that the political cost of people being annoyed at the increased blocks makes it expedient to ease up on it once there's no compelling political reason to keep it this tight.

It may not sound like any authoritarian ever, but adapting the level of oppression to what is politically expedient has been common practice for Chinese authorities for decades.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I was curious how SCMP is able to publish an article critical of government policy. Does anyone know the specifics of what is publishable and what isn't? I thought maybe the SCMP might have been out of Beijing's jurisdiction, but it is owned by Alibaba, so I would think it would be under the same scrutiny as any other Chinese news publication.

<comment><USER25> I lived in China for many years. Honestly, the government is very clever about how they censor. They don't do things so obviously and they allow a little bit of criticism. there is no hard and fast law as to how they censor. While I lived their they were constantly hopping between VPNs. Some of their censorship is political, some is a also protectionist. Had China not blocked google, Baidu would probably have been dead by now.

To start with this article is published in English. They know that 99% of their population will not be able to read it so its no big deal. I have seen articles in Shanghai daily which give minor criticism to the government. But overall they always try to project a good sentiment about the country. Furthermore often what is published in English print written by Chinese is not the same as what is written in Chinese print. Language is ultimately their greatest tool for censorship.

Also, 90% of the population remains unaffected by their blockages since they can't understand what the rest of the internet is saying. If you were to try to access youku (Chinese website akin to youtube) within china you would find that the streaming speeds put youtube to shame. So for the average person why would they be interested in youtube?

As long as the government provides people with basic infrastructure and safety people are willing to put up with some amount of censorship.

<comment><USER24> That is interesting. Yeah it can be a wise move to allow limited criticism, since (1) I think they realize some criticism can be beneficial to fix faults of the government, and (2) it helps provide the appearance that the people are in control of the government. There is also strategic ambiguity in not having to obey a "hard and fast law as to how they censor", since the government can censor in what it deems the most pragmatic manner.

"They know that 99% of their population will not be able to read it". But in my experience in China at summer programs in universities, I found that almost all university students (at least in Beijing & Shanghai) can read English. I suppose they will of course prefer to read Hànzì.

<comment><USER25> But the common person cannot. Also you are looking at the best universities of the country in Beijing and Shanghai. And as you stated, they still will prefer to communicate in their own tongue.

<comment><USER24> Of course. And I'm aware that the best universities are in Beijing and Shanghai. But still that is a sizable population of intelligent English- reading Chinese. I'm sure the government would be concerned about them being exposed to ideological influences in english media.

<comment><USER26> The government doesn't fear intelligent people, who are by definition smart enough not to risk their career or physical safety to openly criticize. This "sizable population of intelligent English-reading Chinese" are primarily focused on exploiting Party connections to help them build wealth, and then expatriate the money beyond the government's reach.

Nobody is talking about a revolution, that would be suicide. The intelligentsia are far more concerned with using government to their advantage, which naturally responds very well to money exchanged for favors (like how baidu got rid of Google).

It's poor people that government worries about. Because when poor people rise up, that's bad news for anyone in power who hasn't yet fled the country. And if most poor people don't read English, well then there is not much harm in allowing some printed criticism of the Party, as long as it's in English.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> An easy and legal way to circumvent the firewall is to buy a SIM card from a foreign country and use roaming.

<comment><USER28> Why would that work? My internet traffic would be routed through the local cell tower and have to traverse the Great Firewall.

<comment><USER29> It works because cellular roaming traffic travels over a tunnel to your carrier's source country. This greatly simplifies data billing calculations, since they only have to keep track of the usage of one connection.

The traffic is already tunneled when it passes through the GFW.

<comment><USER30> So I guess the reverse is true also, which explains why my mainland SIM card wouldn't have unfiltered access roaming in HK.

<comment><USER29> I believe so. When I was in China, my mainland SIM didn't work at all in HK. I assume many people get prepaid SIMs when traveling out of China so they wouldn't be subject to filtering anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Why is China still doing this? What do they have to fear about the outside world and the open Internet?

<comment><USER32> As an example, think of all the nastiness on social networks and the role they played in the most recent US election. Why would you want to invite that into your country?

<comment><USER33> Was this sarcasm or are you suggesting censorship is an acceptable solution to fake news, internet trolls, etc?

<comment><USER32> Maybe not acceptable, but it seems plausible that it could be effective.

<comment><USER34> And killing people is a great way to reduce the unemployment rate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I live in China and use a Chinese-language product that combines SOCKS proxying with packet obfuscation, and it works flawlessly, unlike anything else I've tried. I can't find an English reference, but Obfsproxy for TOR is similar. So if anyone wonders how they could contribute to bypassing the GFW, working on that kind of packet obfuscation software might be a good way.

<comment><USER36> I am very curious about this tool you are super happy with and would be totally fine with a reference about this entirely in Chinese ;P.

<comment><USER35> If you email me (an email is in my profile), or give me some way to message you, I'll send you a link. I'd rather not post in public.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> _He now bypasses the firewall with his university's VPN system. Since researchers could still access legal VPNs through work, he did not think the restrictions were harmful to China's academia – "at least for now"._

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it sounds like this won't affect academics.

What seems more interesting is that China is apparently creating a two tier system for access to information.

<comment><USER38> People have been commenting for years that westerner-oriented hotels appear to have less filtering than other places in China.

<comment><USER10> That seems to only be true in southern Chinese cities. You ain't gonna get around the gfw even in a five star western branded Beijing hotel.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> The deleted word 'an' from the title (currently "VPN crackdown 'unthinkable' trial by firewall for China's research world"; in the article, "VPN crackdown an 'unthinkable' trial by firewall for China's research world") made it a real garden-path sentence for me—I initially read it as "VPN crackdown 'unthinkable'", and struggled to parse the rest separately. Is it really necessary to chop off the indefinite article?

</comment><comment><USER40> From the standpoint of international competition, the Great Firewall isn't such a bad thing. Wasn't it Sun Tzu himself who said, "When your enemy is making a mistake, don't interfere?"

But research (ideally) benefits us all, so we'd be making a mistake of our own to adopt such a provincial attitude. The Chinese scientific community is not our "enemy." It's a shame the Great Firewall can't be worked around as easily as sci-hub worked around Elsevier and other artificial roadblocks to scientific communication.

<comment><USER41> It's very annoying to see such a comment assuming that HN readership is all and only US citizen. Very exclusive of the other people.

<comment><USER40> _It 's very annoying to see such a comment assuming that HN readership is all and only US citizen._

Sorry, that wasn't my intention at all. But:

 _Very exclusive of the other people._

It's not the US who's running the Great Firewall, remember.

I'd _like_ to think we wouldn't tolerate such a thing here. I've been wrong a lot lately, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> The last time China isolated itself from the world they fell back so far that a few gun ships brought down their dynasty. Are they looking to repeat this mistake?

<comment><USER15> Uh. Are you thinking of Japan? The Qing dynasty was brought down by more than just a few gunships.

Though the larger point about isolationism is still valid.

<comment><USER24> I wouldn't consider China to be isolationist, because China's history is full of foreign interaction.

The reason China fell back and lost the Opium Wars was not due to isolationism, but rather because for some other reason(s), they missed out on the industrial revolution. But the exact reasons(s) they missed out on the industrial revolution is a great debate, and is the quadrillion dollar question...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> > will be permitted only to connect to a company's headquarters abroad

And HQs gateway to the wide world web?

</comment><comment><USER44> I think a more efficient way for China to 'block the internet' is to stop teaching English altogether in schools. And I won't be surprised if that actually happens.

<comment><USER18> I would be absolutely shocked if this happens. Less than 1% of China's population speaks English beyond learning for business purposes. Making learning English illegal would be impossible to enforce, you would have to build additional infrastructure on the internet just to specifically block english courses. What you are suggesting is actually more complex.

<comment><USER45> To be fair, there is a world of difference between 'stop teaching English in schools' and 'making learning English illegal'.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> r/titlegore

</comment><comment><USER47> What's the point of this article... the VPN block was fake news anyway.

<comment><USER48> Or maybe the OneParty was trying to see just how far they push their censorship, after it already passed a draconian "cybersecurity" law recently.</comment></comment>


Mozilla – Devil Incarnate; or How Mozilla Pretends to Care About Privacy - <AUTHOR> https://digdeeper.neocities.org/ghost/mozilla.html <comment><USER2> The post is horribly formatted. It's also basically not much more than a lengthy rant against a lot of changes in UI/UX/security at Firefox that happened over the course of many years. Stuff that was confusing was removed which is being painted as a way of taking away freedom from the user.

While I agree that Mozilla is behaving in a rather deceptive manner e.g. by portraying themselves as the lone ranger in the fight against the mighty Google, while paying off most of their expenses by Google's payments for being Firefox' default search engine in a big part of the world, their PR department is going a great job and a lot of people fall for it.

This post however will enlighten you in the same sense a 9/11 conspiracy theory will bring you any closer to the truth of what happen in 2001.

</comment><comment><USER3> My latest Mozilla moment was visiting their web page to read how to do something and immediately getting a pop-in window asking my opinion of their web site.

Well, if you distract me with a pop-in window I am not going to say anything good about your site.

Mozilla likes to blather about "diversity" but it seems the one kind of diversity that matters to them is having a fancy office in a city where you can watch "privileged" white males live on the street, puke, die from overdoses, etc.

I have to qualify that, however, in that now that Edge is gone, Firefox is the only thing that stands in the way of a Google monopoly.</comment>


Html5 Fractal - <AUTHOR> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21087540/fractalviewer.html#maxI=500$centerX=0$centerY=0$viewWidth=5$cyclePeriod=10$cyclePhase=0$smoothColors=true$trackParameters=true <comment><USER2> A rendering of the Mandelbrot set should be the Hello World of anything that's not a console app.

<comment><USER3> Why stop there? <http://www.codeproject.com/KB/cpp/rt_mandel_zoom_animtn.aspx> (or any of several other results for the obvious search)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Very cool, but I'm always frustrated by the resolution limit of digital Mandelbrot sets. I'd love to see one that would support (effectively) infinite zooming. Also, I'm aware that it's an artifact introduced by the use of HTML5, but sites that break my back button annoy me.

<comment><USER5> That would be difficult to implement in javascript, I think. Once you zoom in far enough using a float/double doesn't give you enough precision to calculate each pixel accurately. The typical solution is to switch to some sort of bignum library. That's going to be really slow in javascript.

In general though, infinite zoom mandelbrot programs do exist (don't know of any off the top of my head though), they're just trickier to implement.

<comment><USER6> Look at the old fractint programming. Like the name implies they used ints [0] for their computation, and this could give you basically infinite zooming, and fast calculation even on a 386. (There's also a linux version called xfractint or so.)

[0] ints and lots of cleverness.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A more feature-rich implementation: <http://juliamap.googlelabs.com/>

</comment><comment><USER8> My friend Doug built something similar:

<http://dougx.net/fractals/>

Also some very nicely constructed HTML5 games:

<http://dougx.net/plunder/>

<http://dougx.net/sweeper/>

</comment><comment><USER9> I actually really like how this is pixelated until it recalculates, it gives me a sense of how the calculations work.

</comment><comment><USER10> Firefox (4.0) renders this much faster than Safari (5.0.4), Chrome (10.0.648.204) and Opera (11.01) on my MBP (Santa Rosa 2007) with OSX (10.6.7). Could someone else test this too? If reproducible, what could be the reason? Is this simply a Spidermonkey win?

<comment><USER11> Odd, on my Mac Firefox 4.0 is by far the slowest (the smoothing pass is painful to watch), with Safari (5.0.4) coming in second and Chrome (10.0.648.204) is easily the fastest. MacBook Pro Mid-2009 2.53 GHz Core 2 Duo. Didn't try Opera.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Got an error on IE9 "Browser does not support canvas"

IE9 supports HTML5 canvas. Would have been great to compare the performance & rendering.

<comment><USER13> <!DOCTYPE html> may fix this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Neat but it seems the pixel plotting could be optimized but I guess I should keep my mouth shut until I've tried to draw that big with my <http://plea.se/me/leif/canvas_leif.html>

</comment><comment><USER15> Reminds me of a similar implementation using OpenLayers: [http://gis.ibbeck.de/apps/Mandelbrot/htdocs/wms_mandelbrot_f...](http://gis.ibbeck.de/apps/Mandelbrot/htdocs/wms_mandelbrot_frames.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> Nice, but I was disappointed when I tried to use the browser's zoom feature--I guess I expected it to zoom in and focus somewhere.

</comment><comment><USER17> Really impressive! Skype (5) crashed when I loaded the page. Granted, I was in a screen-sharing call.

</comment><comment><USER18> Shouldn't it be titled "Canvas Fractal"? What's inherently HTML5 about this aside from canvas?</comment>


Ask HN: Would you implement a decision table library, in 2015? - <AUTHOR> I would really appreciate the HN's community advice on this topic. My requirement is to take decisions based on a common mechanism, not a workflow but merely a matching approach via a decision table (the concept has been pushed as a solution since the beginning, refusing rule engines and wishing to get rid of if-else code). The proposed solution is a decision table, with decision conditions (a column) and actions (another column) + some operators (boolean, any, not, business-like) in order to have a reusable library, matching a set of decisions based on a provided decision table and a matching function, semantically free, via decision table definition in XML, decision table manageable in memory, dynamic SQL creation. However, I do not really support this solution as I think performances, scalability and clustering (if in-memory-table would be used) would be seriously impacted. And the library would then end up as not-so-reusable and force its consumers to workarounds/adaptations/steps-back. Moreover, I see several principles which could be easily broken: KISS (Keep it Stupid Simple), YAGNI (You Ain't Gonna Need It), somehow also PLA (Principle of Least Astonishment). Too many buzz words perhaps, but the alternative would probably be to use an existing product (OpenL Tablets, DTRules, JBoos Drools) or rethink the solution just via Design patterns appliances (if you really don't want to see if-else everywhere).
Would you really implement a decision table library in 2015? Would you actually use decision tables in your application or push for other alternatives?
Thanks a lot! <comment><USER2> If this is to cut down on if-else code then I'd say it depends on how many if- elses you're saving.

More often I see people take this approach to let end users compose rules for various actions. But this kind of thing tends to be what I call a "Turing complete" feature, where people are always writing rules that go beyond what your model can express. ("If there are two of these, and one is not older than this, and their mean is greater than the most recent of these, and the current time is before 8 a.m. in the time zone of the user who owns this user's account . . .")

In that case, if your users are sophisticated enough (e.g. internal users in a "services" division of your company), you might want to consider going with embedded Javascript instead. You can expose a few objects/functions from your application and let people write JS using them. Then you run their JS and see if it evaluates to true. I've used this in a Ruby context before with the gem therubyracer.

This is nice because your app gets a full-featured scripting language for free. You don't have to design the language or write an interpreter. Javascript is designed to be very secure. It can't do IO or run shell commands. And it's probably the most widely-understood programming language out there, so there's a low learning curve.

Challenges are that your users have to understand a programming language, and you'll probably want to take steps to validate the Javascript they're writing and to surface decent error messages when problems happen. Also therubyracer can use a lot of memory, which may or may not be a concern depending. Another challenge is that the JS will be opaque to an outside computer system. It's hard to break it down and express what it's all about. For instance you couldn't run a query to find all actions that require condition foo.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> Rules engines are awesome and are super powerful, but add a layer of complexity that is not inconsequential. I have implemented a lot of rules engines, and removed a fair number of them too since the late 90's. I generally removed them because they created a dependency nightmare, added crazy complexity and required significant extra test conditions that the application just didn't need to have. This can slow your development down considerably for smaller applications and cause great frustration. Which is not what a rules engine should do.

My basic starting thoughts is that if the rules are well known, change infrequently, have minimal nested chaining and number < 50 or so then I'd opt for having a good design pattern or simple if/else within the code. If you violate any of these tenants, then I'd look at decision tables/trees first, then after that move to a rules engine. Of course, if users are required to write their own then that would also have to factor in to this decision. BTW -- Don't dismiss a good design pattern or even a plug-in pattern as sometimes that is more than enough to solve moderately complex rules without adding additional dependencies or significant development complexity.

If this is an application that will be deployed to third party sites, then again, I generally opt for a balance between the number of dependencies and the application maintenance. If it is deployed behind a website or application where your company controls the environment, then I focus more on flexibility and application maintenance than dependencies.

Also, in a few less common scenario's, I have written very basic purpose built rules engines that solved some of the key issues without creating needless complexity, maintenance or dependency nightmares. Not that I advocate writing libraries/code that already exists, but many times you just don't need a Drools, or ilog rules etc. Also, this is where something like embedded JavaScript is a handy tool as pjungwir also mentioned.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why don't you just use drools decision tables?

[http://docs.jboss.org/drools/release/5.3.0.Final/drools- expe...](http://docs.jboss.org/drools/release/5.3.0.Final/drools-expert- docs/html/ch06.html)</comment>


Foxy Nate Silver and why old-media hedgehogs could soon be old news  - <AUTHOR> http://pandodaily.com/2012/11/02/foxy-nate-silver-and-why-old-media-hedgehogs-could-soon-be-old-news/ <comment><USER2> I don't get the effort to lionize (foxitize?) Nate Silver just before this election. The "other side" says: [http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/01/is-nate- silvers-value-at-r...](http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/01/is-nate-silvers- value-at-risk/)

"In 2008, the RealClearPolitics polling average was incorrect in two states — Indiana and North Carolina. Silver botched Indiana but correctly called North Carolina. In 2010, it was much worse. State polling averages were wrong in Alaska (they said Joe Miller would be elected), wrong in Colorado (they said Ken Buck would be elected), and embarrassingly wrong in Nevada (they said Harry Reid would be involuntarily retired). FiveThirtyEight incorrectly forecast the winner in each of those states, perfectly reflecting the inaccurate information contained in the state polls. Thus, of the five major state races in which polls were wrong over the last four years, Silver only got one right."

Why don't people wait and see what happens?

<comment><USER3> Duh. Base a model on polling data and you are only as good as your polling data. If the election is swung by cheating this time (as evidence suggests has happened plenty of times in the past), polls will be spectacularly wrong. Incorporate everything else you can think of and you get only a bit more accurate.

However the question is this. Do you have anything more accurate? I've had the experience on NPR of hearing pundits going on at length about what states matter. And it was less informative than a glance at <http://www.electoral- vote.com/> is.

So no, it is not perfect. Nobody, particularly Nate, says that it is. But we don't have anything better.

<comment><USER4> Check out <http://electionanalytics.cs.illinois.edu/> for an alternative to Nate Silver. It uses bayesian analysis and dynamic program to come up with a deterministic snapshot of the election.

It is based on the polling data, so if the data is off the snapshot will be off, but otherwise it seems to provide a great snapshot of the Election.

<comment> mkr-hn I think that's the same method Nate Silver uses.

edit: I just looked at your comment history. Repeating the same comment over and over is going to cause problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Normally reporters are supposed to be unbiased, and so making a call one way or the other is inappropriate. In OP/ED mode, probabilities are completely beside the point. No one is going to say, "You should vote for XYZ because he is currently the most likely to win."

I really am not sure what the point of predicting is _unless_ you're betting, or unless you're a high-level campaign manager who needs to allocate resources in various districts/states.

<comment><USER6> I can give you another reason with a much bigger population base.

You have a candidate you are backing, with your time and/or money. But you are not made of time and money. What are you doing this weekend, working in the yard, or at the phone-bank? Signing checks to your candidate, or putting that money back into your business? Predictions help a lot here - they're useful for time and money allocations other than just at the "high-level campaign manager" level.

<comment><USER7> Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

I agree that disinterested parties have a lot to gain from a probabilistic analysis, but someone who's working at the phone bank likely cares deeply about the cause and is convinced that their efforts can make a difference. At a macro scale, they do make a difference.

It's precisely those kinds of actions which shift the overall probabilities regarding the outcome.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The hilarious part of this article is how it's so clearly a "hedgehog" article.

> Hedgehogs are "type A personalities who believe in Big Ideas – in governing > principles about the world ... Hedgehogs are more easily seduced by clear > narratives. Foxes are more data-driven, less willing to stake out strong > positions.

Wouldn't you say this article is definitely a "clear narrative" and a "strong position" that is not backed up by data, nor does this categorization of people seem to show "nuance, uncertainty, complexity, and dissenting opinion"?

It's an article for hedgehogs.

</comment><comment><USER9> >"If you think it's a toss-up, let's bet," Silver Tweeted at Scarborough. "If Obama wins, you donate $1,000 to the American Red Cross. If Romney wins, I do. Deal?"

Wouldn't a better bet be something like $800 to Scarborough's charity if Romney wins or $200 to Silver's charity if Obama wins given that Silver has Obama at 80%? That makes Silver's confidence more visible than by using an even bet.

<comment><USER10> Scarborough's the one saying it's a toss-up, so Silver's proposing a bet at Joe's odds. If Joe really believes his own odds, the bet would be fair.

<comment><USER3> Any competent gambler knows that a fair bet is not worth taking.

See the Kelly criterion if you don't know what I am talking about.

<comment><USER11> That's also the point, Nate is implying Joe is not a competent gambler, or at least not a competent odds-calculator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Saying Nate Silver is "wrong" is like saying the weatherman is wrong. Neither is taking a position, just reporting an aggregated statistic.

<comment><USER13> That's true of his model, but in his writing he's definitely taken a position.

<comment><USER14> In what way? How has he taken more of a position on the election outcome than a weather forecaster does on weather outcome?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> i like to keep in mind that intrade had 80% odds on the supreme court ruling obamacare unconstitutional, right before it was declared constitutional:

[http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=74535...](http://www.intrade.com/v4/markets/contract/?contractId=745353)

the idea that bookies and betting sites have something to teach us about real outcomes is a little rich. the optimal outcome for a sports book is to have heavy betting in the wrong direction.

<comment><USER3> If you believe that bookies are consistently giving the odds wrong, then you should start consistently taking their money.

Yes, I'm aware that this way of thinking is odd to people who do not understand markets, gambling, and so on. But it is still true. Bookies try really, really hard to give correct odds. And if you look at 20 bets which had 80% odds, you would expect to find several examples where the expected winner lost. That's why the odds were set at 80% and not 99%.

<comment><USER15> i am only inspired to mention this because nate silver mentioned oddsmakers as evidence supporting his prediction.

[https://twitter.com/fivethirtyeight/status/26394803410527846...](https://twitter.com/fivethirtyeight/status/263948034105278464)

i'm mixing examples here. intrade is a betting market, no line is set by a bookie - it measures public opinion. one way to look at it is that intrade is efficient and there was truly a "20% chance it will occur." the other way to look at it is "the odds were never 80/20" because most people betting on it were uninformed or misinformed (clearly watching WAY too much Fox news). this is unknowable, because it's not a repeatable event. prediction markets were originally based on the idea that folks with inside information would bet heavily and clearly justice roberts had other stuff to do.

understanding how sports books work is not the same as saying "i know enough about sports to bet profitably." that said, bets set by a casino or sports book are different than intrade. a bookie is trying to maximize house profit, whereas intrade is pure sentiment. a sports spread can be -2 with 80% of people betting one side. the house might think the real spread is -4, and they expect the line to pay off. here's an example of how lopsided bets can be:

[http://www.thespread.com/ncaa-college-football-public- bettin...](http://www.thespread.com/ncaa-college-football-public-betting- chart#.UJWDjKg0V8E)

I'm reading "sharp sports betting" by sanford wong right now. good quote:

"I had the opportunity to ask Robert Walker, race and sportsbook director at MGM mirage, whether his company's action is balanced on football games...it appeared to me that sportsbooks might be taking lopsided action on about half of all NFL games. Mr Walker answered that what I hypothesized was indeed the case....then i asked him why he did not make more line moves to try and balance the action. his answer was that to move the line to try to balance the action would result in less profit for the sportsbook."

<comment><USER3> If you know the odds that you think are right, and the odds that they are providing, you can read <http://www.elem.com/~btilly/kelly-criterion/> to figure out what your most profitable strategy is. (I include calculators, and explanations of how to modify the strategy if you are somewhat risk-adverse.)

Seriously, if someone is offering wrong odds and you're sure of it, you can consistently make money. Go for it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I welcome the demise of the non-mathematical political pundit.

</comment><comment><USER17> I therefore propose Fox News to change it's name to Hedgehog News - "News straight from the guts!"</comment>


The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010) - <AUTHOR> http://workmanlayout.org/ <comment><USER2> He uses the wrong test. Testing on "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" is meaningless for developpers: tests should be performed using real usages like "source code of linux kernel" or "mailing list of linux kernel" to have a better balance between code and text.

<comment><USER3> Even better, it should be performed using a recorded vim session, rather than a full file. The keystrokes you use while editing are not the same as those that end up in the finished file.

<comment><USER4> But this brings up that some Vim hotkeys are more positional than mnemonic (J-down, K-up), while others are more mnemonic than positional (I-insert, X-exterminate(?)).

Food for thought.

<comment><USER5> This is why I believe that qwerty is the best layout. All applications have designed all shortcuts to be sensible on it. Any other layout is just going to be a disaster and negate any benefits and more during actual _use_.

You can of course use whatever layout you like and then while ctrl/alt/meta is pressed it switches to qwerty, doesn't save vim users though (or other applications where shortcuts don't need to be prefixed).

I'm not convinced switching from qwerty is that beneficial, I believe (but have not yet tried it) an orthogonal keyboard will do more than any layout will. But I admit that I don't have experience to back that up.

<comment><USER6> I've been using dvorak for more than a decade now. Yes, shortcuts are sometimes a bit annoying, but qwerty is so bad, that dvorak is still worth it.

<comment><USER7> I've been using Dvorak for ~15 years now and the keyboard shortcuts don't bother me. For example, when Dvorak Ctrl+X/C/V is translated to QWERTY, they are in the positions Ctrl+B/I/(period). For shortcuts like Ctrl+C in Dvorak (Ctrl+I in QWERTY), I put my left thumb on Right Ctrl and my left pinky on the letter key.

Two minor problems, though: In Dvorak, V is immediately beside W. Ctrl+V means paste, but Ctrl+W means close window, so care is needed. And, any keyboard that lack Right Ctrl (e.g. the Microsoft Surface series) is an abomination.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist "support" and the layout doesn't matter unless you're going for typing records.

There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you're artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand.

What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2B5XRtr6k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2B5XRtr6k)

Imagine you tried playing a piano the way you type on your keyboard: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqmH-o1cX0)

The pain is letting you know you're doing something wrong.

<comment><USER5> It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours?

Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial.

I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

<comment><USER9> Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature.

Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' \- requiring no external tools to work comfortably.

Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well.

A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired.

So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms.

I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.

<comment><USER5> I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards.

Static postures are seen as something _very bad_ in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic.

I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.

<comment><USER9> Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day.

The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists to type (because you want to reach the keyboard while some other part of your body is stuck 'resting').

<comment><USER5> Maybe I overestimate how much I use the keyboard but I still see hours on straight where I would not want to move my hands away from the keyboard. You don't need to reach for the keyboard due to supports, you are resting on the home row.

Yes, movement is important and one should take breaks but that is something one should do regardless of posture. I see how lifting hands can improve that but it has to be balanced against the negatives.

If moving a hand to use the mouse is seen as a big pain point I have a hard time to see how one would rest unused hands on the legs? Underneath the table?

<comment><USER8> When you bend your arms at 90° where are your palms? With proper posture/keyboard height they should be _over_ the keyboard. If you're sitting straight it's natural to bring your keyboard to the edge of the desk. But if you prefer to be under the desk then just rest on the desk.

I made a really quick sketch some time ago maybe it helps: [http://svgur.com/s/7e6](http://svgur.com/s/7e6)

That wrist angle on the green dude is very exaggerated, the point was to show that the fingers are in their natural positions, rather than curled, which is what happens when your wrists are glued.

EDIT: Also just look where the piano lady is resting her hands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As a full time developer who used to suffer terrible RSI pain, I solved the problem without changing keyboard layouts. After consulting with my doctor and an ergonomics expert, I realized my problems were cause by the setup of my workstation and the bad posture habits I had developed.

1\. I would rest my palms as I typed. This turned out to be a major source of pain. Retraining myself to "float" my hands over the keyboard was a massive improvement.

2\. My desk was too high / my chair was too low. Setting up my desk so that my keyboard is as close to my lap as possible was the next big improvement. When in a seated position, my hands are very comfortable when resting on my thighs. Putting my keyboard in a drawer that is just above my thighs helped a lot.

3\. I also switched to a trackpad instead of a mount and a split keyboard. I found this allowed a more comfortable angle for my hands and less temptation to rest my wrist while mousing.

After making these changes, I have been pain free for over 10 years.

<comment><USER11> Did you consider using an isomorphic layout like the typematrix? I find the anachronistic skew in keyboards to be a source of discomfort.

<comment><USER10> I have only recently learned about isomorphic keyboards and I am indeed curious to try one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This looks interesting but the symbol still look very qwerty-ish. I type on Neo-2 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Neo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Neo)), which uses ISO keyboards and primarily targets German, even though the majority of my typing is in English. Its entire third layer is for symbols that are common in programming. Layer 3 is activated via either caps-lock or the key above Right Shift, and has \/{}* ?()-:@ as the home row, …_[]^ !<>=& above it and #$|~` +%"'; below it (there's a picture in the Wikipedia article linked above).

Layer 4 (right alt or the key to the right of left shift) is also pretty cool, it has lots of navigation keys and a numblock in convenient positions, but I somehow never got around to learning that. All the layers are shown on [https://neo-layout.org/](https://neo-layout.org/) (in German, but that doesn't matter for the pictures).

With a Trackpoint (Thinkpad USB keyboard), this means that my hands don't have to leave the home row at all. It's super convenient.

<comment><USER13> German users might also be interested in the AdNW layout ([http://www.adnw.de/](http://www.adnw.de/)). They started out with Neo's excellent and logical arrangement of the non-alphabetical layers, but replaced the alphabetic layers with a layout created by running an optimization algorithm on a text corpus of 50% English and 50% German text (whereas in Neo the key arrangement was created manually, based on intuition). The metrics they used were largely inspired by Dvorak's research.

<comment><USER14> Had a look at it and it is not useful for me. I use Vim or vimbindings and the f is in a pretty bad spot, i will stay with neo.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > Try typing "The" with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you'll see > what I mean. Your right hand will move somewhat like this: you swing to the > right to get the SHIFT key with your pinky, then you swing back to the left > to get the letter 'H', and then you move to the right again to get the > letter 'E'.

Why would you use the right shift here?? I shift with the _left_ pinky in this situation and it feels fine.

Colemak is just fine, and it's already included in most operating systems.

<comment><USER16> I think there is a theory that one "should" use the _other_ hand for any modifiers. Presumably and primarily so that the letter key is always pressed using the same finger and position of the hand.

<comment><USER15> I never cared about using the "correct" shift key.

<comment><USER17> I think it matters most for those with smaller hands. That said, if you were transcribing stuff all day long (i.e. typing way more than a programmer), you might notice less fatigue if you shifted "properly".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> If you are looking at alternative keyboards, I have been using the TypeMatrix 2030[0] with a transparent cover for about 10 years.

I am using the Dvorak layout, but I think that the main reason it is so comfortable to use is the ortho-linear layout of the keys and that it is totally flat.

I would recommend anybody with RSI to test first ortho-linear physical layout of the keys with your standard Qwerty or Azerty or whatever you use right now before moving to something else.

[0]: [http://www.typematrix.com/](http://www.typematrix.com/)

</comment><comment><USER19> Kudos for effort. But changing layout is not enough.

Current mainstream keyboards design is fundamentally flawed [1] and IMO obsolete because of [4].

Hopefully there is science [2] and much alternatives to choose from [3]

[1] [http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_problems.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_problems.html)

[2] [http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboard_science.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboard_science.html)

[3] [https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split- keyboards](https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards)

[4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_dependence)

<comment><USER20> The first link references the myth of QWERTY being meant for slowing typists down. It merely spreads most common letters out so them being pressed together doesn't jam the typewriter.

<comment><USER19> Yeah agree, except that error, didn't find better article to link to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> > I didn't like the way Dvorak was laid out especially for the weak fingers of > the right hand.

I am not sure if I only know this from playing piano and guitar, but it is surprisingly easy to strengthen those fingers. The exercise is very simple and all it takes is a couple minutes a day, it can be done anywhere (even better if you have a piano or guitar!):

1\. Lay your fingers on a table, and curl them like you were at a keyboard or holding a small ball in your hand.

2\. Keeping all of your other fingers on the table, lift your weaker finger, typically the ring as high as you possibly can without causing the other fingers to rise.

3\. Bring it down as hard as you comfortably can.

4\. Repeat 1-3 until you can lift higher and bring it down harder without affecting the other fingers.

<comment><USER22> Thanks for that. I've started playing guitar a few years ago and my ring fingers are pretty weak and dependent. I can't do the Vulcan salute for instance, my ring finger is kind of "tied" to my pinky.

<comment><USER23> I've done a similar one that might help you. Same starting position with all fingertips on the table, fingers curled in piano position. Do the lift with pinky and middle finger at the same time, then down, then lift ring and index finger, then down and repeat. My goal for this is speed instead of strength, but you'll definitely feel yourself working on that tie between your ring and pinky finger.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I don't have any RSI issues but I love the idea of alternative/improved keyboards and layouts and have accidentally become kind of an aficionado/collector. I have on permanent rotation and have written reviews of a Kinesis Ergo [0], Truly Ergonomic (TEK) [1], TypeMatrix [2], and Happy Hacker [3] and I'm looking seriously at buying an Ergodox one of these days. I happen to like and dislike each of those keyboards: each has advantages and disadvantages. Same goes for Dvorak (which I use regularly) and Colemak, etc. I'm hard pressed to say which is my favorite, but I like each for different reasons and conclude it would be impossible to combine them into any "perfect," ultimate keyboard.

One thing that almost never comes up in these discussions is the need to change or rotate keyboards. I love the Kinesis but eventually get tired of it, and am happy to move to the TEK, which then starts to bother me until I move to the TypeMatrix, etc. Every keyboard and layout improves some part of typing while exacerbating another. Switching keeps you nimble. I suspect it's like bicycles, of which there are infinite variations. If one bike hurts your wrists and another hurts your legs and another bothers your neck, switch every few rides.

[0] [http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in- Sty...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Style-with- the-Kinesis.html) [1] [http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/290-The- Truly-Erg...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/290-The-Truly- Ergonomic-Keyboard-TEK-Review.html) [2] [http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/295-The- TypeMatri...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/295-The- TypeMatrix-2030-Ergonomic-Keyboard.html) [3] [http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/304-Review-of- the...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/304-Review-of-the-Happy- Hacker-2-Keyboard.html)

</comment><comment><USER25> A keyboard layout for programmers, which allowed the use of special characters on the home row, perhaps by using a mixed corpus of source code rather than just novels, would be interesting to see.

Recently, I ordered the Ultimate Hacker's Keyboard because I think typing is quite important for a programmer, especially if you consider health as the author of this article does. I'm a little bit weary of _not_ using QWERTY because of the high cost of switching, so if I did switch, I'd want to select a layout that was basically perfect for me long-term (which sounds very tough to do).

<comment><USER26> "which allowed the use of special characters on the home row"

Unless you're programming in something very symbol-heavy, even by programming language standards, I suspect you'll find that it's hard for any symbol (other than space) to break into the top-10 non-space symbols; not impossible, but hard. I just did a 200KB perl file here, and the top 12 symbols are space, e, a, r, s, i, t, o, n, newline, l, and d. The first symbol, underscore, shows up in position 13, then it's u, then finally, $. Underscore is less than half as popular as the e. As you may guess, the naming convention of this code is mostly underscore_based. If this code was camelcase instead, you'd have to go down to position 14 with $.

The other problem is that languages will significant differ, so you can't really create "a programming layout". If you did nothing but type Perl, that list of symbols may suggest that perhaps $ should be on the u or i key or something valuable like that, but if you run the same process over your C# you're not going to see $ popping up nearly as high and now you've got a _huge_ wasted key. Parentheses are in the 22nd and 23rd slot on this count, the only thing that I would be comfortable saying is really generic. (And then there's still Haskell, where they are used, but much, much less often.)

<comment><USER27> There's also the difference between what's in the code and what you type. My code is full of colons and commas between named arguments, but those are all inserted by autocomplete in my IDE.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I left Colemak for Qwerty some 5 years ago. Keyboard layout matters much less than your typing technique.

Same thing for ergonomic keyboards - they can be a dangerous sign that you're focusing on the wrong thing, on micro-optimizations rather than on the root cause.

I have no guide to share unfortunately but I'd recommend observing one's movements, and try to figure out what's the most natural way of doing a given thing.

Also, regardless of what you do, typing many hours will tire you / be painful. Act accordingly.

<comment><USER17> _Same thing for ergonomic keyboards - they can be a dangerous sign that you 're focusing on the wrong thing, on micro-optimizations rather than on the root cause._

I disagree. It depends on the keyboard, of course. For example, the Microsoft Natural I had in the 90s was a complete POS that exacerbated my tendinitis. It was a cheap sliding-post keyboard. If your finger hit anywhere but dead-on, the resistance was tremendous.

A good mechanical keyboard will provide perfectly consistent resistance, which will be a huge improvement over a poorly designed, cheaper keyboard.

A more advanced option like the Kinesis or Ergodox completely eliminates many of the fundamental problems with traditional keyboards that create pain in the first place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I have been using this for ~4 years. So far I like it, it is extremely comfortable to type on and instantly felt better than eg. colemak to me, though I never learned to touch type as quickly on any other layout. However, I wish I had just stuck to qwerty in the end, as I use vim keybindings wherever possible and the extra steps needed to customise the keybinds in each application is a hassle, and sometimes not even possible.

</comment><comment><USER29> Anything other than [AQ]WERT[YZ] layout-based keyboard is already a big improvement for your fingers. The differences between Workman / Colemak / Dvorak and so on is mostly a matter of taste. One thing to note is that widely used layouts have more chances to be supported by software and by keyboard manufacturers (e.g. [http://www.typematrix.com/](http://www.typematrix.com/)). So it may be wiser to choose mainstream layouts that creating your own or using niche ones.

There is probably not a definitive answer for which one is better ("better" would have to be defined for this), so go ahead, read a bit about them and do your choice. Be aware though that once you have choose one, you will be stuck with it for a looong time, because switching layout is _hard_. You have to remap all your brain an muscle memory before being able to reach your previous efficiency. Spoiler alert: it takes months to years for this.

PS: For french speaking people, you may want to have a look at [https://bepo.fr](https://bepo.fr)

<comment><USER12> Agreed. I use neo2, which is the German equivalent of bépo. It's shipped with pretty much every Linux distro, which means that all I need to do is "setxkbmap de neo".

It definitely takes several months to achieve a decent speed on a new layout, but I wouldn't say years. I did a full switch after deciding I wanted to learn neo. That means that from that day on, I didn't use qwertz _at all_ , and forced myself to type everything in neo. Also, _don 't use stickers_. They teach you to look at the keyboard. Put a printout of the layout next to your keyboard and look at that. Otherwise you'll just form bad habits. It took me around a month to get to a point where my neo typing speed was reasonable, and maybe another month until I had managed to get to the point where it wasn't annoying any more. Of course I was in university back then, and not paid to develop software.

<comment><USER29> Year _s_ is a little bit too much yes. I also did a full switch after 1 month of "klavaro" [1] training, but I think it took me nearly one year to be "fully" adapted. By "fully" I mean not thinking anymore about QWERTZ: not for french, nor for english, nor for coding and for beating my previous QWERTZ capabilities.

[1] [http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/index.html](http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/index.html)

<comment><USER12> Interesting. I don't really remember how long that took me, it's been some eight years now since I switched. I used ktouch to practise, which has lessons for neo2 and, apparently, BÉPO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The author doesn't even learn dvorak before deciding that it doesn't work for them. They mention don't like how it behaves on the consonant-heavy, qwerty- optimized commands used in unix. (I have to say this is a fair evaluation, but in practice the layout somehow doesn't encourage RSI despite the apparent awkwardness of typing unix commands on it.)

In result they don't seem to understand that the dvorak layout is optimized for alternation between hands (they do mention this) _and_ inward rolling motion (they don't seem to understand this). You can really feel this when typing, and it makes typing downright enjoyable.

I wouldn't be surprised if much of the added distance relative to colemak and workman is probably reaching for the "i" with the left pointer finger. These are the easiest movements to make repeatedly, and in my experience the home row horizontal movement that they try to optimize out of workman isn't really important.

People should be free and encouraged to make their own layouts to beat RSI. But, scientific measurement of what is better seems basically impossible...

<comment><USER30> In the author's defense, I came to the same conclusion using Dvorak when I was a teenager learning unix and programming. I switched back to QWERTY for a while, but around 8 years ago I learned about Colemak and switched and have been very happy with it since.

One thing I like about Colemak is that it is close enough to QWERTY that I can still type on QWERTY by looking at the keys and not look like a complete fool. Dvorak is so different that it completely rewires the brain and it's very difficult to switch between it and QWERTY. That's been my experience at least.

<comment><USER11> After switching back and forth between Dvorak and QWERTY for multi-hour work sessions maybe three times I found that I could do so instantly. I learned touch typing on QWERTY very young so maybe this is why it was easy for me. I often use a keyboard without any labels on the keys so it's always touch typing no matter the layout I pick. Also, I don't really get anxious about things that slow down my text entry, so I tolerated my own interface experiments without worry. I've coded and done data analysis using my thumbs on a cell phone. Switching keyboard layouts really isn't so bad by comparison. To each their own.

I find it surprising that much of the current effort in keyboard layouts is in finding things that are better than QWERTY but similar enough to it to not be scary. I am completely unmotivated by this. If someone could convince me that their layout was a kind of super-Dvorak, and scientifically enhanced the same features that I enjoy about it then I would try it out in a heartbeat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Given that micro-movements can lead to RSI, shouldn't the goal be to make the hands move as _much_ as possible instead?

<comment><USER32> That's an interesting question. Then, dvorak or similar (alternating hand) layout would probably be a good starting point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> check out QMK keyboard firmware at [https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware](https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware)

do whatever you want with layouts, macros and layers without any need for software or driver on the host machine

</comment><comment><USER34> My biggest issue with traditional keyboards is using non-alpha keys like the arrow keys, modifier keys, punctuation, numbers, escape, and function keys. I (sorta) solved this issue by getting an Ergodox and designing a qwerty layout[1] that made the modifier keys thumb accessible and other non-alpha keys close to the home row through layers:

\- navigation layer: arrow keys and tab navigation on the home row.

\- number and symbol layer: numbers on the home row, function keys one row above and punctuation one row below.

Its still a work in progress but I think it has helped me.

[1] [https://configure.ergodox- ez.com/keyboard_layouts/zjdlgd/edi...](https://configure.ergodox- ez.com/keyboard_layouts/zjdlgd/edit)

</comment><comment><USER35> I feel Carpalx has a less arbitrary, more rigorous solution to this [1]. I've been using its QFMLWY for years. It is hugely better than QWERTY. Though as a programmer, I'm still not fully happy with the Ctrl and Shift keys being in their standard location, and thus at the weakest (pinky) finger.

If anyone would like to give QFMLWY a go, let me know. I have scripts to install it on Win, Mac and Ubuntu.

[1] [http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization)

<comment><USER36> > the weakest (pinky) finger

A lot of keyboard layout enthusiasts (including the linked article) make this claim, but is there any evidence for it? As someone who as trained in various arts that use the hand, I've always been told by all of my teachers that the pinky is the _strongest_ finger.

This article rates the first two fingers "very strong" and "strong", while ring and pinky are both "weak", yet a ring/pinky pull-up doesn't seem any more difficult than an index/middle pull-up. Strong enough to lift my body weight, but too weak to press keys on a modern keyboard? I'm skeptical.

The most believable answer I've found so far, as to the relative strength of the fingers, is [1], which is a multi-faceted "it depends". There's no standard way to measure strength, and there are many different kinds of strength a finger can exert. How exactly are we defining "finger strength" for typing, and how are we measuring it?

[1] [https://100hourboard.org/questions/52873/](https://100hourboard.org/questions/52873/)

The Dvorak layout has many advantages (I've been using it for over 25 years myself) but the idea that it's better because it uses your "stronger" fingers is just a canard.

<comment><USER35> The pinky being the weakest perfectly matches my subjective experience. My wrist pain is at the outside of my wrist. The more I use my pinky, the worse it gets.

<comment><USER36> That doesn't sound like strength at all to me. Just because it hurts to use a body part doesn't automatically mean the muscles attached to it are weak.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> It is interesting, given that the corpuses are available, that keyboard design isn't framed as some sort of linear or nonlinear optimising problem.

Choose a set of tasks -> plug into an optimiser -> get a keyboard mapping tuned to the task you are doing. There'd be people who find that useful. The maths isn't at all hard, the data is there.

 _EDIT_ Maybe it would be a fun project to take something like top 100 C libraries from github and build up an optimised keyboard layout for C coding. It is an interesting idea.

<comment><USER38> The problem is generalizing the corpus enough to make it viable for more tasks than "writing C libraries", so that it can achieve mainstream support. The parameters to consider are also contentious - are we optimising for travel, finger stretching, speed, etc ...? It's not just about data.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> The Colemak Mod-DH family of layouts incorporates the major insight of Workman (that QWERTY v and n are lower-effort positions than QWERTY g and h) without abandoning the better elements of Colemak (common left hand shortcut keys QWAZXC remain unmoved, good hand alternation, emphasis on inward rolls).

[http://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/](http://colemakmods.github.io/mod-dh/)

<comment><USER40> While I don't use the DH change, the angle mod mentioned where zxcv are shifted left one key has been amazingly helpful for me. It makes standard staggered keyboards a lot more comfortable to use correct fingers for left bottom row

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> My thoughts:

\- if the author of the article is moving his fingers laterally, probably he is doing something wrong (must use other fingers instead of moving, this is typewriting). Independent of the layout, this cannot happen.

\- I believe that there is no silver bullet for keyboard layout if you write code and text, more than one language, statistics of your typing are unique for the languages you currently use.

</comment><comment><USER42> I'm glad that alternative keyboard layouts seem to be gaining traction but I just can't go cold turkey and move away from QWERTY.

The biggest annoyances for me with regular keyboards are that caps lock is a wasted key in a prime position and the F keys are too far out of the way.

These were solved by the HHKB and that's what I'll be using for the foreseeable future.

</comment><comment><USER43> A large portion of coding is moving the cursor left, right, up, down, page up, page down, home, end

The arrow keys are not even shown on the layout.

And the selection of prose corpus (es?) is again not related to programming [Tom Sawyer].

We need underscores, braces, semicolon, context menu.

Perhaps a better metric would be the hoc compiler source from The Unix Programming Environment.

<comment><USER44> > A large portion of coding is moving the cursor left, right, up, down, page > up, page down, home, end

> The arrow keys are not even shown on the layout

Nothing that learning Vim keybindings can't solve.

<comment><USER45> What about using a browser, terminal usage outside of vim, and insert-mode in vim? Do you use vimium in chrome and vim-mode in bash?

<comment><USER25> I suspect the answers would be: use non-arrow keybindings for browsers (e.g. vim-like plug-ins, or alternative keyboard shortcuts), remap your terminals keys (maybe, use a different terminal entirely?), use insert mode for only inserting text.

I use a "vimium" plug-in for Firefox and I quite like being able to go up/down with j/k. Though I still use the arrow keys for my terminal.

<comment><USER45> Yup I've just installed vimium on chrome, and it seems to do the job.

I've tried out vim-mode bash in the past, but much prefer the default emacs- mode on the command line, despite being a vim user.

Either way I'm suspecting a ton of exceptions which necessitate resorting often to the cursor keys, however (like another commenter has mentioned w.r.t various GUI apps).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I moved to Dvorak year ago. Very very happy with this.

The pain of my hands, especially on the weakest fingers, just ended. The sad is that there are no available keyboards to buy in my country, so I always need to manually change and 'fix' my new laptops, risking to break it, and I always do it very worried and careful.

<comment><USER41> I use Windows and Mac OS, so years ago I create a layout and software to use your Apple Keyboard with Dvorak under Windows.

[https://github.com/edpichler/Apple-Dvorak-on- Windows](https://github.com/edpichler/Apple-Dvorak-on-Windows)

I wish some movement of better layouts start, so people would engage, and the market would start to produce laptops coming ready for our use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> We need keyboards with digital keys, not printed, so we can change the layouts at the click of a button.

<comment><USER47> I recalled [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard) from years ago. It looks like the successor uses an LCD screen: [http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/](http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/popularis/).

<comment><USER46> Bingo.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> One neat trick (for programmers) is to switch your number row to use the symbols normally and shift to get the digits.

As a programmer you type those symbols way more often than digits. It's easy to get used to and it can make a difference if you have RSI issues.

</comment><comment><USER49> This is an excellent solution to a problem no programmer has. After 10 years of programming I can safely tell that, if you type the majority of your time until you make your wrists sick, you are writing shit code and you should spend more time thinking.

<comment><USER50> Do you not write emails, search the web, or do writing on a computer of any kind? I wouldn't be so quick to judge here. You don't know what they are really doing on their keyboard all day. Maybe typing is all we have due to a physical disability that limits mobility and communication in other ways. There are a lot of possibilities beyond "writing shit code".

<comment><USER49> yeah, yeah, I guess there's multiple edge cases.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I always type faster with one hand,

It is common for me to type thnak you for exemple Should I be using an layout with low hand switching? Dvorak? Thanks

</comment><comment><USER51> I always type faster with one hand,

It is common for me to type thnak you for exemple...

I guess i should look at a layout with little hand alternance, Dvorak?

Thanks

</comment><comment><USER52> What a stubborn Emacs user, all they had to do was switch to Vim..

</comment><comment><USER53> I love how inclusive this comment is "a difference of 696 meters. It doesn't sound like much, however if we convert it to centimeters, that's equal to 69,600 cm" :D

</comment><comment><USER54> > Workman Keyboard Layout</comment>


Show HN: My angular 5 project for making infographics - <AUTHOR> http://easyinfograph.com <comment><USER2> Feedback - improve the home page.

This sounds interesting, but honestly the home page is so sparse it doesn't even look worth the time to sign up.

Snapping a few screenshots or recording a short video demoing the product would be a good start.

Best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. I am definitely going to improved the front page. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Intrigued by the title but getting 502 Bad Gateway.

<comment><AUTHOR> Should be fixed now!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like the functionality! Are there any embed options?

<comment><AUTHOR> That is coming. Should be out soon :)</comment></comment>


Obama signs NDAA 2014, indefinite detention remains - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/2013/12/27/obama_signs_ndaa_2014_indefinite_detention_remains/

<comment><USER2> Here's the paragraph that summarizes indefinite detention:

 _Meanwhile the troubling NDAA provision first signed into law in 2012, which permits the military to detain individuals indefinitely without trial, remains on the books for 2014. Efforts to quash or reform the provision (especially with regard to the indefinite detention of U.S. citizens) have failed and have been fiercely fought by the administration. Most notably, a lawsuit filed by plaintiffs including journalist Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky and Daniel Ellsberg against the provision has been aggressively fought at every turn by the president's attorneys. The plaintiffs argue that the NDAA provision constitutes a significant expansion of the laws regarding indefinite detention already established by Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF)._</comment>


An enemy of the Kremlin dies in London - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/01/the-poison-flower/508736/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> (2017)

<comment><USER3> I see what you did there.</comment></comment>


macOS Catalina 10.15.5 and 2020-003 Security Updates are Live - <AUTHOR> https://mrmacintosh.com/whats-new-in-the-macos-catalina-10-15-5-update-19f96/ <comment><AUTHOR> Today, Apple released the following updates

macOS Catalina 10.15.5 Update Security Update for Mojave 2020-003 Security Update for High Sierra 2020-003

Patch & Security information, Download Links, Version info + size for BridgeOS, Combo, Delta, Full Installer app included in the links below!

[https://mrmacintosh.com/whats-new-in-the-macos- catalina-10-1...](https://mrmacintosh.com/whats-new-in-the-macos- catalina-10-15-5-update-19f96/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Added the link to the 2020-003 Security Updates for Mojave and High Sierra.

[https://mrmacintosh.com/macos-2020-002-security-updates- moja...](https://mrmacintosh.com/macos-2020-002-security-updates-mojave-high- sierra/)</comment>


Why Are So Few Male Students Studying Abroad? - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/02/male-students-studying-abroad/583828/ <comment><USER2> I find myself kind of scratching my head at some of the news stories about gender differences these days, and how there always seems to be a spin that casts males in a negative light.

Fewer male students study abroad? It's that are lazy.

Or this one from the other day: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19275394](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19275394)

Girls are much harder working and get better grades in school, but lose out in the office because they don't know how to skate through with minimal effort the ways boys are taught to do.

I mean, can we seriously discuss gender outcomes that don't reduce to:

\- when males are on the losing end, it's because they are inferior in some way

\- when women are on the losing end, it's because they have been set up to fail.

Sadly, any real discussion of the narrative bias gets you branded a "men's rights" activist and dismissed as a crank.

<comment><USER3> I don't see any claim in either article that men are inferior or lazy. One can just as easily interpret issues regarding male performance in school as being cultural or societal, or even systemic - that both men and women are being "set up to fail" in different ways. Even the New York Times article linked to in the other HN thread (and the thread itself) suggests not that male students are lazy or inferior, but that the incentives created by the way genders are socialized lead to those different outcomes.

You claim to want to have a serious discussion about gender outcomes, but rather than doing so, you're just complaining about the way people treat you from behind a throwaway account and, in my opinion, a "narrative bias" that exists more in your interpretation than the actual text.

Do you believe these articles are outright lying? That male students don't underperform versus female students, or that male students don't study abroad less often than female students? If you believe the sociological trends exist as described, to what do you attribute them, and what solutions do you feel might best address them?

<comment><USER2> I don't doubt the trends that are being reported. As I said, I dispute the narrative being fit to the data:

> Samantha Brandauer, who runs Dickinson College's study-abroad office, told > me she has experienced this firsthand. In her past job at Gettysburg > College, she teamed up with a colleague to convene student focus groups on > why men didn't go abroad and what the college could do about it. What she > discovered was a "bro mentality" among men in college—a culture in which > male students don't want to leave their friends to study abroad and are > heavily influenced by their classmates in making choices about what to do in > college. "Part of this is a messaging problem, because the way we talk about > study abroad as a transformative experience just doesn't resonate with > college-age men," Brandauer says. "They don't want to be transformed."

I may have missed something in my reading, but to my eye this is the only explanation offered for this trend in this article. And in my estimation, this is a lazy explanation that fits a political narrative a little too easily.

And yes, I am hiding behind a thowaway account, but I'm not complaining about treatment of me or people like me. This is a trend I've noticed in articles that blur the boundary between editorial and reporting, and I don't think it is fair to anyone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I was so bummed when I looked into this in college. Going for a physics degree, there was basically nowhere I could go in the spanish speaking world with classes that counted towards my degree. Which is nuts, since physics is a degree almost everywhere.</comment>


Ask HN: Why does High Sierra break so much stuff? - <AUTHOR> I keep seeing reports of stuff breaking as a result of upgrading to High Sierra. Does anyone know why this new version of the OS breaks so many different things? <comment><USER2> This happens with every release of OSX, it's why most long time OSX users are so cautious about upgrading when a new version arrives. Here are a few examples.

Yosemite: [https://fieldguide.gizmodo.com/the-worst-bugs-in-os-x- yosemi...](https://fieldguide.gizmodo.com/the-worst-bugs-in-os-x-yosemite-and- how-to-fix-them-1652690924)

Mavericks: [https://www.wired.com/2013/10/mavericks-issues-and- fixes/](https://www.wired.com/2013/10/mavericks-issues-and-fixes/)

El Capitan: [https://www.imobie.com/support/mac-os-x-probelms-and- solutio...](https://www.imobie.com/support/mac-os-x-probelms-and- solutions.htm)

Personally, I remember this as far back as the first upgrade I participated in, from Leopard to Snow Leopard: [http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/backstage/comments/problems...](http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/backstage/comments/problems- with-mac-os-x-10.6-snow-leopard-join-the-sizable-minority)

I had trouble finding lists of Sierra's issues due to naming conflicts with High Sierra, but off the top of my head I think that was the version that broke Homebrew's permissions scheme, requiring manual intervention on the part of many users.

<comment><USER3> So is a long trend:

[https://macperformanceguide.com/topics/topic- AppleCoreRot.ht...](https://macperformanceguide.com/topics/topic- AppleCoreRot.html)

Is a interesting tesis...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> _An alternative explanation, likely unsatisfactory, but possibly correlated to continued growth of social media such as this very site:_

Stanford linguistics professor Arnold Zwicky coined [the term "frequency illusion"] in 2006 to describe the syndrome in which a concept or thing you just found out about suddenly seems to crop up everywhere. It's caused, he wrote, by two psychological processes.

The first, selective attention, kicks in when you're struck by a new word, thing, or idea; after that, you unconsciously keep an eye out for it, and as a result find it surprisingly often.

The second process, confirmation bias, reassures you that each sighting is further proof of your impression that the thing has gained overnight omnipresence.

–"There's a Name for That: The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon..."

[https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/153166/what- is-t...](https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/153166/what-is-the-term- for-when-you-become-more-aware-of-something#153171)

<comment><USER5> I think there is another psychological factor at work, which is that people feel more critical toward, or at least more free to express criticism of, very successful people or orgs.

When Apple was struggling for success against Microsoft a decade ago, it seemed like a lot of tech folks gave them a pretty big benefit of the doubt. OS releases had problems then, but the reaction was usually balanced by a sense of, "this is progress though."

Now that they are the most valuable company in the world, there's not really any benefit of the doubt anymore.

I think a similar effect was at work in the 2016 U.S. presidential election. The widespread assumption was that Clinton was by far the stronger candidate, so there was very little benefit of the doubt for anything.

<comment><USER6> In 2008, Apple wasn't exactly struggling. The iPod reached its peak in December 2008, the iPhone had just been released and it had a market cap of $500 billion.

[https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/12/02/apple-inc- valuati...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/13/12/02/apple-inc-valuation- passes-500-billion-half-the-market-cap-imagined-last-year)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have a mid 2014 Macbook Pro (top of the line, discrete GPU and all) and some recent update has made it really slow (not the Meltdown updates, something before that). It now takes an age to switch workspaces, to load the task switcher, to change applications etc. Stuff also seems to go wrong more. App crashes, iTunes refusing to open, Finder crashing etc.

The annoying thing is I tried to upgrade to a new Macbook Pro, but I just couldn't get on with the new machine (I detailed my thoughts here [https://blog.willj.net/2017/08/14/why-i-returned-my- macbook-...](https://blog.willj.net/2017/08/14/why-i-returned-my-macbook- pro/)).

I feel like Apple are pushing me away. My mac is still better for me than a Linux machine, but it's getting close now.

The thing with this is that I don't really think Apple cares that much. Apple is a phone company now, and OS X and Macs feel like an afterthought.

It wouldn't surprise me if in the next few years Apple slowly winds down all things Mac. Marketing, updates, upgrades etc. and while doing that makes XCode Windows compatible.

<comment><USER8> Maybe you should replace the battery

<comment><USER7> It's plugged into the mains, but regardless, Apple replaced the battery a couple of months ago, currently has only 19 charge cycles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Simple answer - no money in osx, it's all in ios.

<comment><USER10> Tragically I think this is the answer - all of Apple's talented developers have most likely shunted over to iOS and the quality of macOS has been left to rot.

What's infuriating is that High Sierra, as referenced in its naming scheme, is supposed to be _minor improvements_ on top of plain Sierra, but it breaks so many things that I am drawn to compare it to Vista - half-baked, unfinished, should never have been released. And yet Apple have previously managed good releases like this - Snow Leopard (my all-time favourite OS) and Mountain Lion were successful. High Sierra is a train wreck. I am holding all company laptops back from upgrading because I can't trust the thing.

<comment><USER11> > all of Apple's talented developers have most likely shunted over to iOS

This gets trotted out a lot, but I have trouble believing it. I don't think Apple considers developers to be in short supply--and if they do, it's very stupid of them and they should reexamine that thinking.

I know that demand > supply for skilled developers right now, but Apple has _enormous_ amounts of money in the bank. They can't use a tiny fraction of that to get themselves more, or better developers? I doubt that shareholders would notice/care if a few millions of dollars went towards a hiring blitz for, say, 100 really good engineers with salaries so competitive that Apple could poach them from wherever else they work.

I'm not saying that "throw bodies at the problem" is always a good solution, but Apple can easily afford to throw _really, really talented bodies_ around, and if short-staffing is their problem, it seems like the solution is obvious.

Am I missing something here? Would adding a bunch of beyond-competitive senior developer salaries dent Apple's numbers more than I think they would? Are there really just not that many developers willing and able to work on this at any price? If not, is the problem with "willing" or with "able"?

<comment><USER10> I'm not saying Apple themselves have shunted the developers, I'm thinking that the developers themselves have moved jobs of their own accord since they see no future in macOS. It's been obvious for a while now that Apple only considers iDevices as their money-spinners. Their actual computers have been long neglected, and their updates for the last several years have been to include more iDevice-like features, so I would think the macOS developers would willingly believe Apple themselves aren't wholeheartedly behind maintaining their desktop OS. It just feels like there is very little willingness from Apple to build a good desktop OS any more, and no sense hiring macOS developers as a result.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> When Steve Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, there was a huge backlog of bugs and deferred maintenance in system software, presumably because resources had been diverted to the failed Copeland project. Jobs addressed the problem immediately, and the result was a series of very solid OS releases, starting with System 8 in July 1997. Ironically, Apple seems to have come full circle. If Apple has their priorities straight, this year they will invest a chunk of their repatriated cash in Mac software.

<comment><USER6> Jobs returned to Apple in July 1997, the same month that Mac OS 8 was introduced. Jobs had no real interest in Mac OS before OS X. He used a computer running NeXT until OS X came out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Been there done that. A real solution would be to stop hiring new developers, to reduce the size of the current dev team, to reduce the size and responsibility of the QA team in order to force developers to test their own code. To eliminate any new feature requirements, to prioritze regression testing (migration, update, etc) and to allocate a whole release to trim the pile of bugs in radar.

Why Apple can't do that? 1. Pressure from investors "we want to see new stuff". 2. If they stop hiring new "talents" that would benefit other companies including competitors. 3. You can't hire good developers and ask them to fix bugs for a year because they would run away from you which would compromize 1. And 2.

It is a tough problem for Apple it ain't easy to fix. In other words, Apple needs a Steve Jobs. It needs to focus and disconnect from the world for a little while no matter the short term consequences. If you're confident enough you're doing the right thing for your customers, it'll pay off in the long run.

<comment><USER11> > You can't hire good developers and ask them to fix bugs for a year because > they would run away from you

Really? I've never experienced that in the workplace. However, I'm not that widely travelled and not in SV, so I guess I'd be "unsurprised but depressed" to learn that this degree of idiotic entitlement is common. And idiotic is exactly what it is: truly quality software is the product of lots and lots of bugfixing. It's like the "10% inspiration/90% perspiration" thing, but for initial development and bugfix/gradual improvement work. Especially on huge (OS-sized) software, people hiring on should not be surprised that this is the bulk of their day-to-day.

I get that greenfield development is more fun up front. I just (perhaps naïvely) hope that most professionals understand that a) "fun" and "good for the product" aren't the same thing, and b) that it can also be very personally rewarding to spend a long time fixing bugs (yours or others') and see the quality of/user happiness with a product noticeably increase.

Also, I think being able to say "I fix bugs to maintain _an operating system used by millions_ " is at least as rewarding as being able to say "I make buggy websites for startups whose marketing buzz reaches millions".

<comment><USER13> I think we're on the same page. I was simply highlighting things I witnessed from my past experience. Bugs (in Mac OS) get really nasty sometimes and frustrating for the most part. It is brain consuming and the reward isn't always worth the energy spent. Management doesn't even reward bug fixing unlike the "new" stuff. Ask any dev from that specific team (or even iOS team) to fix bugs for a whole year and you'll see the reaction. Some actually do because of a "lower" global performance at work. You can easily get assigned on bugs over "new" stuff if you don't hustle 24/7 but that's a whole new topic :)

But to add up to my previous comment - only a few people get to implement new stuff each year, they don't test their code and fall under very tight deadlines, so they produce buggy stuff. This generates tones of new bugs constantly tracked by QA (QA doesn't fix anything, they just report problems), bugs quickly pill-up in Radar and developers are already assigned onto something else. Most of the bugs reported by customers are duplicates... they're usually already tracked, either not assigned yet or simply lower priority than something else. So what it the problem? Well, everything I mentioned ;)

<comment><USER11> I think we agree as well; my reply was meant to speculate on whether anti- maintenance sentiment comes from developers or higher up (culture etc.).

> Management doesn't even reward bug fixing

I think that's the moral of the story. It's not that developers are childish, stamp their feet, and refuse to do bugfix work; it's that they're incentivized to not do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I find this all quite hilarious, seeming I'm running this on a 2009 white Macbook running on High Sierra, running like a dream. Granted I only use it for some media stuff, but it works great on this oldest supported device for HS by Apple. Yes I had to bump the HDD to SSD and RAM to 8GB, but it is still usable.</comment>


Gogs(Go Git Service) on Raspberry Pi - <AUTHOR> http://blog.meinside.pe.kr/Gogs-on-Raspberry-Pi/

<comment><AUTHOR> Alternatively to save you some time, you can download the (unofficial) ARM tarballs for Go from here:

        http://dave.cheney.net/unofficial-arm-tarballs</comment>


Noodlejs - Node.js web scraper - <AUTHOR> http://noodlejs.com/ <comment><USER2> I didn't submit this, but I did oversee the project.

Noodle is a Node-based web scraper that also handles JSON, XML and other file formats. It was initially built as a hack project to replace a core subset of YQL.

All responses can be served as JSONP, to allow for cross-domain scraping from a website's front-end.

Selector queries can be used to grab a subset of a document - e.g. CSS selectors for HTML documents and dot-notation for JSON documents. It lets you request multiple documents in a single HTTP request, and a few other things.

I helped to guide an intern, Aaron Acerboni, at my company, Dharmafly, when he built it last year.

</comment><comment><USER3> I can recommend formatting the JSON. Like this:

      demoElement.innerHTML = JSON.stringify(data, null, 4);

And then use "<pre>" tag in the demoElement.

<comment><USER2> A good idea. I've just added that to the docs site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> For those looking for the source, you can manually get it:

[http://npm.im/noodlejs](http://npm.im/noodlejs) is the NPM package

[https://registry.npmjs.org/noodlejs/-/noodlejs-0.2.0.tgz](https://registry.npmjs.org/noodlejs/-/noodlejs-0.2.0.tgz) is the package source

        $ curl -kO https://registry.npmjs.org/noodlejs/-/noodlejs-0.2.0.tgz

The code is pure-JS (not a C++ addin)

</comment><comment><USER5> I get a 404 when I try to access the project's GitHub page or download it.

<comment><USER2> Whoops. Now fixed. Not sure how that happened.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> README [https://npmjs.org/package/noodlejs](https://npmjs.org/package/noodlejs)

Npm package npm install noodle

Npm tarball curl -kO [https://registry.npmjs.org/noodlejs/-/noodlejs-0.2.0.tgz](https://registry.npmjs.org/noodlejs/-/noodlejs-0.2.0.tgz)

<comment><USER6> noodle should be noodlejs

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Unless I'm reading wrong, this scraper is a slightly prettier API to what most do: a simple curl, structuring the data with selectors.

Like most it ignores page requiring state or anything dynamically generated on the client.

</comment><comment><USER8> How does this compare with Cheerio? ( see discussion on HN from yesterday - [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6273905](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6273905) )

<comment><USER9> I can't answer your question without reading further, but I note that Cheerio is a dependency of Noodle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> how to get the list of urls in this example on [http://noodlejs.com/](http://noodlejs.com/)?

the selector: 'h3.r a' allows only to get the list of names

<comment><USER2> Simply replace `extract: text` with `extract: href` for the anchor's href attribute. You can do this with any kind of attribute.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is very cool! Thanks for sharing.</comment>