Ask HN: Is a home server good enough ? - <AUTHOR> Hello HN!,
The idea: I'm planning to launch an image storage service that allows users to upload photos from their IPhone. Think of it along the lines of twitpic wherein the user has a native IPhone application that can upload photos from the device's camera. I don't intend to copy twitpic, I'm just using it as an example to illustrate the general nature of the service.
The problem: After applying for an IPhone developer's license, my budget is now fairly close to $0, leaving me no money to rent a server.
The proposed solution: I have a 512KBps internet connection at home. It's supposed to be 512 up & down, but my ISP oversells its bandwidth as any ISP does, so this tends to vary wildly depending on time of day. Using a combination of dydns and port-forwarding I can set up a computer at home to be a server. The computer in question is an Acer with a 2.5GHZ intel processor & 2GB of RAM. This computer is only used occasionally for checking email or light wordprocessing. 95% of its time will be dedicated to this application alone.
The photos coming from the phone will be resized and compressed down to about 20kb per photo. There will be some additional metadata that comes with the photo like username, geolocation, etc. which brings the total data outgoing from the phone to about 25kb per photo.
Once receiving the photo, the server will send back some confirmation data which weighs in at about 4kb. If the user is requesting their profile for editing, the server sends back data that is about 25kb, ie; username, email, thumbnail of avatar, etc.
The server app is written in PHP with a smidgen of .NET for some image manipulation. The estimated frequency of use is perhaps 4 photos per day per user.
The question: This setup is only to launch the service and gain minimal traction, say 5000 users or so. That means it has to run for 3 months ? ( I have no idea how long it'll take to get 5000 users) The general idea is to get the service running with some users, iterate to the 2nd version of the product with the feedback received and then approach an investor.
Is this set-up good enough ?
Thanks HN !
<comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-
Home computer details here : http://www.acer.co.in/acer/product.do?link=oln93e.redirect&changedAlts=&kcond48e.c2att101=50579&CRC=3875343219 </comment><comment><USER2> >> Is this set-up good enough ? >>

No. No project should be run out of your home. The idea has absolutely nothing to recommend it. It isn't adequate for a Wordpress blog, to say nothing of a web application your customers will be relying on.

Get yourself a VPS. They're absurdly cheap -- 3 months on Slicehost will run you $75. (I assumed you would want backups. If that was not in the cards, reevaluate your readiness to be trusted with anyone else's data.) If you have an iPhone, you have far more than $75 available if you apply yourself. If you absolutely, positively do not have $75, skip your next run out for pizza, get yourself shared hosting from GoDaddy (for about $4 a month last time I checked), and put up with the nuisances of shared hosting (which is still better than self hosting!) until you have revenue. Then, go to a VPS.

<comment><AUTHOR> Believe me, I grasp the idiocy and irony of owning a macbook & an iphone and not having $75 to spare. Life's like that sometimes.

With regard to the hosting, it has to be a VPS becuase I'm relying on openCV for some basic image recognition.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The hardware is fine. The bandwidth is passable, if you write a clean and minimal site. Can you pay a small amount extra and get a fixed IP ? Dyndns will suffice to get you started, though.

The main thing is not to let the problem of lacking hosting stop you from getting your project to the point where you have users and some potential income, as fast as possible.

Which is more likely: a) you halt work on your project because something is not up to "professional" standards, start making money on something else, and your project just dies or b) 1 million people instantly decide to visit your site as soon as it is launched, and can't get to it, and then methodically check the whois on every site they visit for the rest of their lives to make sure you can't do another startup ?

The answer is, if you know a way to get a few users now, do it. Try the site yourself from other internet connections, and tweak it to make it fast on your connection, but don't get bogged down on it. When you have a few users get hosting. Or, just put a small text line somewhere, saying "my service needs hosting, if you like it and can offer me a very cheap deal please contact me".

</comment><comment><USER4> I ran a couple servers at home using "business class" cable a few years ago. Real static IPs, my own DNS servers, etc. It absolutely sucked as far as the network. We never got close to the outbound bandwidth we were sold. I could have lived with it being 50% but it was often so slow and laggy that it was unusable.

The worst part was the almost complete lack of support. We had about 1 short outage a month of an hour or so, but about 1 long outage every 3-6 months. I was down for 3 days once because some cable installer screwed up inside the junction box out by the street. No matter how I screamed, I couldn't get someone out quicker than their usual residential "whenever we feel like it" schedule. I did however get 3 days knocked off my bill. That didn't make a dent in my pissed-off customers though. That's the day we started to move to a bargain colo. (That wound up sucking just as badly except they were on the other side of the country.)

And remember, that's all with "business class" officially sanctioned hosting- grade cable. If you host on the sly, with dyndns and sneaking it in on your residential cable, I know how the story will end. You'll grow for a month or three then one day they'll cut you off or block port 80 on you. You'll be down for days as you scramble to get hosted on a real server and get the DNS updates out.

You can do it, but you need to plan for that eventuality. It would be great if there were some matchmaking service for really small startups where they could share a VPS or a full-blown colo server.

</comment><comment><USER5> Port it to linux, and you'll be able to get hosting MUCH cheaper. If it's already php, and you use .NET just for image manipulation, it should not be hard to do.

First see if the built in php image functions <http://php.net/manual/en/refs.utilspec.image.php> are good enough (you have a choice of three libraries to pick from), and if not, then use the command line program imagemagick (probably the command 'convert').

You might even be able to install imagemagick on windows, so you don't have to switch your desktop to linux. Then get linux hosting and work out any porting issues.

Another thing to try is some of the personal plans - I've seen some that are just $4 per month. If everything is done internally in PHP you should have a pretty easy time using those. If you need to install extra programs it gets a bit harder.

You personal machine is fine for CPU, but not for network. An online hosting place will be good for network, but probably not much CPU.

I don't know how much CPU you need, but maybe, if you need a lot of CPU. and you can do stuff offline, write the program in two parts - an online section, and then use your machine to download, and process the images, then send them back up.

</comment><comment><USER6> Hardware-wise, you're probably fine.

The issue is going to be that you're violating the terms of your consumer Internet connection, and will likely be subjected to all kinds of random filtering and outages. Murphy's Law dictates this will happen as soon as you start to get some attention, as soon as you try to go to sleep, etc.

If it wasn't for the .NET thing, I'd give you a slice to get started on, but I don't do any windows hosting.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the offer !

The reason I'm using .NET is becuase I'm comfortable using the openCV library with it.

I'm a total noob when it comes to linux/unix, but I'm sure with a little work I can get my app running entirely on linux.

Can I take you up on your offer ? To be honest the only thing I can offer in return at the moment is "Hosting generously provided by..." banner on the site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Latency and slow upload speed are usually what makes a home server unfit for this kind of duty. Not to mention you'll be violating your TOS most likely.

On the other hand, no need to buy hosting until you have something to put on it, so you might as well go with this setup while you test/develop your service.

You can get two months of a 256 slice by mowing someone's lawn... hosting shouldn't be hard to come by once you need it.

</comment><comment><USER8> In my experience, dydns will be an enormous hassle that never really does work quite right. It will work from some places and not from others in a very haphazard fashion that leaves you never quite sure if you're up or not.

I'd spot you a slice too, but its specifically forbidden to have any windows machines with public access in our rack.

<comment><USER9> If it's in php it should be reasonably easy to port to linux or *nix. Have you looked at using ImageMagick instead of .Net? To resize a pic you can `convert original.jpg -resize 640x480 new.png` for example. To make it faster use a php imagemagick library.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm using the openCV library with .NET for some image recognition. I've looked at imageMagick but its not suited to this purpose unfortunately.

<comment><USER5> You can use openCV on linux.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Home server is only reliable if you have static ip and a stable line. Otherwise it's more of a pain than a cure. I do have some mission critical businesses run through ADSL (4Mbit down/1Mbit up) in Turkey. Some of them have been running over a year now.

But I had some googlebot problems. For a while googlebot could not reach my sitemaps without any reason.

Also my applications are download intensive. The only one that is upload intensive never had critical audience and is some kind of abandoned. If it had any more audience would it matter if it's a home server, i don't know.

</comment><comment><USER11> I ran a home server with dyndns, just used it for family stuff. The issues I had weren't with bandwidth but with upload speed (important for your app) and mostly with uptime, between regular home pc outages, dyndns snafus, and occasional outages from the provider.

in my experience, this would work for a "closed beta" but not for 5000 users.

If you're willing to use python or (java) for the server-side stuff, take a look at google apps if you are price sensitive. You can host a pretty substantial site without paying anything.

</comment><comment><USER12> Gandi is running 30 day free trials of their VPS hosting. You could use that to see if you can make a VPS solution work for you without having to splash out any cash.

I haven't used Gandi's hosting, but have used other VPS providers. You will need to be vigilant. VPS providers can degrade your experience as time goes on. I suspect they either increase the load on machines due to cost pressure, or sometimes you just get bad luck and some CPU pigs end up on your server with you.

</comment><comment><USER13> I say go for it. You might find that you might not even need to upgrade for a dedicated or even a VPS for maybe half a year. I mean, who really knows how many users you're going to support? Necessity is the mother of invention.

searchyc.com runs off of a home server.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm pretty sure most ISPs prohibit using their service to host a site.

There are plenty of ways to get $100 in your pocket which can get you going for a while.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for all the responses so far !

I agree that $100 doesn't seem like a lot to raise for hosting services.

A couple of things things to the contrary though; First, Its a lot harder to raise a $100 when you're from a third world country :) Second, I do have a little money to spare, but its parked aside "In case shit happens". Finally, Life sometimes puts you in a place where raising even a $100 is hard to do. I understand that running a homeserver for this sort of thing violates my ISP's terms of service, if I could put the money together for hosting, I would.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> just use S3.

</comment><comment><USER16> Home setup is never good enough unfortunately. Though, I am not saying DON'T try, as it could work out for you. One thing you should consider, is, most internet service providers have fast downloading speed, but the upload speeds are very slow... meaning you won't serve a lot, if any, without long waits for the end user.</comment>


Robots to the rescue: Lessons from emergency robot deployments - <AUTHOR> http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=136160&org=ENG <comment><USER2> I'm getting weary of remotely piloted vehicles being called robots. Robots are autonomous by definition.</comment>


Python grew fastest in web searches for 'tutorial' over the last 5 years - robert-zaremba https://sites.google.com/site/pydatalog/pypl/PyPL-PopularitY-of-Programming-Language Python is the language whose popularity is growing the fastest; it is already the second most popular in the US over decade. <comment><AUTHOR> I cannot take seriously a programming language popularity index that states that Javascript has become significantly less popular in the last year. I'm no fanboy but given the sheer weight of evidence from language activity on sites like github to the incredible number of jobs and recruiters desperate for skilled javascript developers it just does not add up. Sometimes a metric producing an unexpected outlier means you've found something interesting but usually it means your metric is broken or meaningless. Searches for the word tutorial sounds like an increasingly meaningless metric the world of sites like stackoverflow.

<comment><USER2> _I cannot take seriously_

Really, how seriously does one need to take a language popularity index regardless of context?

<comment><USER3> Very good point, it also doesn't take into account that java and python are taught in colleges... If a student wanted more help on their python/java homework they will search python tutorial or java tutorial, the context is flawed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> According to Google Trends the search term "jquery" will soon overtake "javascript" in terms of popularity[1][2]

[1]<http://i.imgur.com/yqQ95.png>

[2]<http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=jquery,javascript>

<comment><USER5> That worries me. Some people can write "jQuery" but not proper JS code.

<comment><USER6> Uh, there's nothing improper about writing jQuery code.

<comment><USER5> I know. I'm just concerned about people that learn jQuery but not really JavaScript itself, just the bare minimum needed to use jQuery.

<comment><USER7> I don't really think that is something to be worried about. Most of these people aren't coders by profession, they just want some little customizations to whatever form or theme they happen to be using.

A good parallel for your comment would be: "I'm just concerned about people that learn VBA but not really Visual Basic itself, just the bare minimum needed to use Excel macros."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is based on search engine results!?

"The ratings are calculated by counting hits of the most popular search engines.... The number of hits determines the ratings of a language" \-- [http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/tpci_d...](http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/tpci_definition.htm)

How could that indicate anything other then more pages found by the search engines. How do you know the bias of the engine over time isn't giving better results and the "search trend" ranking is causing the results to skew in one direction or another.

I doubt search engine trends are a really accurate way to understand how much code is out there and what people are actually doing on a daily basis.

Worse the search term is: +"<language> programming"

More sites have "python programming" in them then "perl programming" and way more have "java programming" in them?

This tells me nothing really. I could argue it tells me Java is hard as hell and you have to have lots of references to figure out how to do anything.. Or it tells me that Java has lots of "java programming" sites. Heck maybe it tells us that lots of people host javadocs and every single page says "Java Programming" <reference, docs etc.>.

All that said I am actually enjoying python a lot and find myself writing more of my "you choose the language" projects in it. It feels like it will be more maintainable over time and I have the general feeling I can turn it over to others easier then a pile of Perl. I have to really write careful in Perl to make it readable by non-Perl heads. Python sort of forces that on you up- front. I'm still not a fan of having to use SPACES (COBOL anyone!!) to maintain blocks of code but I'm slowly getting used to it and using vim settings to make it easier etc.

<comment><USER9> _I have to really write careful in Perl to make it readable by non-Perl heads._

This is an honest question: why would you care about that? What does it matter if someone who doesn't know a language (or isn't bothering to learn it) can read code written in that language?

 _Python sort of forces that on you up-front._

How? Indentation doesn't really matter and, for example, list comprehensions aren't all that obvious to someone who's never seen them before. I can understand "I think sigils might be confusing", but that's such a superficial aspect of programming I'm inclined to dismiss it as such.

<comment><USER8> > This is an honest question: why would you care about that?

My goal is to write stuff so I can DIE. In 30 years can you imagine how much I've written. I don't want all that code following me around the planet. I want to move forward and leave for others something they can maintain and understand and use.

> Python sort of forces that on you up-front.

Again I'm not done with my processing on this but I am a bit unimpressed with using spaces to identify code blocks. Ask me again in a year it might grow on me.. :)

<comment><USER9> _I want to move forward and leave for others something they can maintain and understand and use._

Yes, but why do you care if people who don't understand a language can or cannot read code written in that language?

<comment><USER8> yes because I can write Perl that will make your eyes burn. So can Larry Wall.. So What..

How does that work towards the longer term goal of writing code that I can DIE and it still lives on?

If nobody understands it then it will die... If they understand it they can maintain it, give it loving care and feeding and it will live for a long time.

No kidding, I have code that has been in production for 27 years.. still.. think about that..

Chances are I will leave this planet and my code will still be running somewhere...

Can you say that? And if not, why isn't that your goal?

We write code to solve problems for people, not to prove how smart we are. I would argue code that lasts decades is much smarter then 10 lines of something nobody understands and gets whacked on the next refactor.. But then again that's just my style.. :)

<comment><USER9> _We write code to solve problems for people, not to prove how smart we are._

That reads like a false dilemma to me. Surely there's some wonderful excluded middle between "I write code that someone who doesn't know the language can read it" and "I write code so opaque that you need a language specification, a flashlight, and both hands to begin to comprehend it."

I, for example, try to write code, tests, and documentation that a decent developer with a working knowledge of the language and an understanding of the problem domain can figure out what's going on and why. I don't care if someone's nephew or niece who's never programmed before can make heads or tails of the code because I think that's a tremendously silly goal counterproductive to any good business sense.

(Also I've never seen a language which can enforce things like effective factoring, intelligible naming, coherent coupling and decoupling, intelligent encapsulation, and the like. Certainly Python doesn't enforce those.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> These kind of popularity metrics really leave a sour taste in my mouth, regardless of the results. They're just so lacking in rigor of even the mildest degree that it's not even worth considering what they "discover".

If any language is to be the "language of the decade", it ought to be C, and possibly C++. C or C++ still power basically every piece of truly important software, even today in 2013. The major operating system kernels, userlands, compilers, interpreters (including Python's main implementation!), network servers, and web browsers, are all written in one or both of them, for example. And that's not including the many embedded and industrial uses of C that aren't very visible at all.

Until some other languages offer the same full-stack experience, and are actually used for writing critical, widely-used software, I don't think we can label any languages but C and C++ as the "language of the year", or "language of the decade", or even "language of the century" and beyond.

<comment><USER11> While I agree that such metrics don't mean much, if anything at all, the notion that C/C++ should be "languages of the decade" because they "still power basically every piece of truly important software" doesn't make much sense. You might as well declare James Maxwell scientist of the decade because electricity still powers basically every piece of truly important equipment.

<comment><USER12> > You might as well declare James Maxwell scientist of the decade because > electricity still powers basically every piece of truly important equipment.

I'm all for it.

Proponents of 'x' label 'x' the best thing in this decade is a lot less objective than your astute observation that electricity indeed still powers basically every piece of truly important equipment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Guido van Rosseum left Google a while ago because he was annoyed they weren't using Python enough! Python is a nice language but I don't think it's the language of the decade. The langage of the decade is something that has been used from 2000 to 2012 a lot in entreprise and by individuals. Give that price to PHP for all it's worth. PHP was the language for the web for a very long time.... It was used to create facebook. It was a lot more influential than Python. Ask 50 persons in the street if they know what PHP is, then ask them if they know what Python is. I guarantee you that more people know of PHP.

Predicting what will be the next language of the decade is more interesting. My bet is on Javascript for now.

<comment><USER14> I like Python (and Ruby) a ton, but they may find themselves legacy-stamped if they don't develop a good concurrency story quite soon.

No big deal to be ~50 times slower than native code in a single-thread, single-processor use case, but for a well-parallelizable problem on a multicore machine you end up being several multiples of ~50 times slower.

Google just gave up on trying to optimize Python (see Unladen Swallow project) and told the engineers to move on to something useful. I am not sure if the interanls are just to messed up too make it work or if resistance and denial on the part of "B"DFLs and the community is too strong.

But when javascript - JAVASCRIPT! - has a better server-side concurrecy pitch than your language, it is in big trouble

<comment><USER13> Interesting story. Do you know they moved on to what? Java?

<comment><USER14> Python is still used alongside C++ and Java (and some Go) but primarily for prototyping and small utility scripts. A Google engineer explains:

"Well, simple common sense is going to limit Python's applicability when operating at Google's scale: it's not as fast as Java or C++, threading sucks, memory usage is higher, etc. One of the design constraints we face when designing any new system is, "what happens when the load goes up by 10x or 100x? What happens if the whole planet thinks your new service is awesome?" Any technology that makes satisfying that constraint harder -- and I think Python falls into this category -- _should_ be discouraged if it doesn't have a very strong case made in its favor on other merits."

And note this was before the failure of Unladen Swallow, before van Rossum's departure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The symmetric, "curious dance" between C and C# in 2009-2011 could be due to the fact that "#" is not a alphanumerical character. Some searches for "C#" may have been miscounted as searches for "C" in that period. (But that's just an hypothesis.)

</comment><comment><USER16> At first I was about to dismiss this as TIOBE-like crap. But giving it a second thought, there is a _deep_ difference in methodology.

TIOBE - language is popular if "<language> tutorial" brings up lots of results on Google This page - language is popular if many people searched "<language> tutorial".

It's not hard to see that the second one is a much more interesting metric. That said, it's still far from being enough to evaluate a language's popularity. On the other hand, it can be at least mildly correlated with the amount of people wanting to learn said language over the measured period of time.

</comment><comment><USER17> The analysis assumes that more searches for tutorials means the language is more popular where as it might just mean the language requires more tutorials to understand.

</comment><comment><USER18> After reading the FAQ I agree that using the term "<lang> tutorial" is better than "<lang> programming" - but couldn't the results for "<lang> tutorial" possible represent languages that are harder to grasp, rather than languages in popular use.

Then again, if that was purely the case we'd be seeing "brainf __k" all over the place.

Just a thought.

</comment><comment><USER19> In our country, there are 80% developers are using .net/C#. They know how to use svn, cut CSS from Photoshop, code a website, do webform, but they don't know what JSON is, what GIT is, what Linux is, what a Message Queue, or Redis is. Hm, i don't know why .net is so popular. What .net can do, the Linux-based technologies can do.

</comment><comment><USER20> Extrapolating "popularity" for google search volume is a huge pet peeve. I see no reason to believe this data means anything.

</comment><comment><USER21> If you look at USA and look at which state is the darkest for all of the search terms, California is the darkest for each.

</comment><comment><USER22> > which language is taking advantage of PHP's decline

Until you notice that Y-axis is logarithmic...</comment>


Ask HN: Do You Enjoy Programming or Do You Like What You Can Do With It? - <AUTHOR>

Do you enjoy programming or do you like what you can do with it? <comment><USER3> I love being able to program. I'm not limited by the fact that I can think of an idea, but am unable to create. Being able to program allows me to create an MVP(Minimum Viable Product) in hours, rather than weeks.

</comment><comment><USER4> Definitely both.

As a college student, I rather enjoy programming to solve problem sets - <USER2> at the same time, I like being able to play around and build whatever my heart desires.

</comment><comment><USER5> Yup.

It's nice to be able to make ideas, instead of just having them.

</comment><comment><USER6> Both =]

They are not mutually exclusive.</comment>


Release your product NOW, not later (a blog post) - <AUTHOR> http://kanebennett.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/release-now-not-later-with-an-ear-of-course/ What are your thoughts on my latest blog post?
This is an issue which plagues a lot of young developers I know, so I thought I'd write about my thoughts on the matter.
Your advice or opinion on the blog would be great! <comment><USER2> Another advantage of "first come, first served" for a limited number of customers: you can performance test your app and use the data to determine the N you allow to signup. Your slow site doesn't piss off your early adopters AND you delay performance tuning until you want to go to a larger audience.

You also make your own exclusivity. In fact, you should stipulate that during the early access period, idle accounts will be reclaimed. That'll get them to come back (if they're at all interested in your service).

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> What are your thoughts on my latest blog post?

This is an issue which plagues a lot of young developers I know, so I thought I'd write my thoughts on the matter.

Any advice or opinions on the blog would be great!</comment>


Of Mice and Compromised Keyboards...Malware Goes Peripheral - <AUTHOR> http://www.securityweek.com/mice-and-compromised-keyboards

<comment><USER2> There was malicious firmware for Apple keyboards back in 2009 -- [http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh- usa-09/CHEN/BHUSA09...](http://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh- usa-09/CHEN/BHUSA09-Chen-RevAppleFirm-SLIDES.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> Teensy is "a USB drive whose malicious software waits until the victims' computer is booted and sufficiently logged into a computer network before it begins operation"? Bad journalism... Teensy is only a microcontroller...

</comment><comment><USER4> How can you use Metasploit to exploit an "undocumented vulnerability"?

Also, if you'd like to make your own, Hak5 forums have a parts list <http://forums.hak5.org/index.php?showtopic=16236> and lots of project ideas for it <http://forums.hak5.org/index.php?showforum=56>

edit: removed useless video link</comment>


New Startup Offers Free Live Negotiation Course from MIT - <AUTHOR> https://negotiateup.com/courses/curhan <comment><USER2> Is it only for people in the US?</comment>


CurrencyFair: A P2P platform for currency exchange - <AUTHOR> http://www.techworld.com.au/article/529454/currencyfair_p2p_platform_currency_exchange/ <comment><USER2> Hey there - I'm on the tech team in CurrencyFair.

We've been around for a few years now, but weren't expecting to see our name pop up on HN just yet. Of course, now that it's here, if anyone has any questions about what we do, feel free to ask and I'll get back to you asap.

If you're looking for a direct link, it's at the bottom of the OP, or: [https://www.currencyfair.com](https://www.currencyfair.com)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, I actually just heard about CurrencyFair today (through the article I posted), and was surprised it didn't have a lot of news coverage thus far.

As a marketplace, reaching a critical number of users must be something to look forward to, even though I'd understand if you wanted to expand to select markets first (the article says 37% of your current users are in the UK, and 20% in Australia).

<comment><USER2> Hey Pioul - we noticed the traffic from your article ... thank you for that :)

<marketing speak>We're at quite a large size already, having put > .5bn sterling through our system by now</marketing speak>, but more users is always a good thing!

Sure, we have a large user base in the UK and Australia, but really, those users are international - they're not all from those countries, and that's completely ignoring all of the European users we have ... so critical-mass is something we've pretty much already hit.

[edit: spelling]

<comment><AUTHOR> I meant the article I _shared_ on HN, I didn't write it – so props to its author!

<comment><USER2> Ah, sorry, some confusion there. Another blog post today pushed a good few new users to our site earlier.

Now I'm just getting excited for no good reason ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> If you guys can somehow enable transferring between bitcoin and regular fiat that would be a game changer. Right now that's a laborious process and the closest thing to it is buying BTC in person. But this system with BTC as an option on one side of the transaction would be a wonderful way to get into and out of BTC-land.

</comment><comment><USER4> I've been using CurrencyFair for about a year now, after stumbling upon it. Beforehand, I just sent a wire straight from Chase in the US to my bank in the UK (Oh, dear).

It's been absolutely fantastic. I was a little hesitant at first, sending smaller amounts through at a time. But now I'm regularly transferring 5 figure sums without a worry in the world.

The rate you end up with is way better than what you get straight from the bank. And if there's no rush, I just set an order up at a rate I fancy, and wait for the market rates to wobble a bit, and someone fulfills it.

Because of the way it works, your money isn't actually the money coming out of the other end (it never is, I guess, it's all electronic) -- it means that I can deposit $X from my bank in the US, and have that appear as £Y in my bank in the UK, on the same/next day!

I haven't personally had any need to contact them, but I've read their customer support is good, too.

<comment><USER5> Keep in mind that when you transfer large sums of money abroad, you have to report it to the IRS.

Anything over $10K requires an FBAR form (TD F 90-22.1):

[http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs- pdf/f90221.pdf)

Transfering the money to trusts requires a 3520 form:

[http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3520.pdf](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs- pdf/f3520.pdf)

Plus you should also read this:

[http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International- Taxpayers/Forei...](http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International- Taxpayers/Foreign-Currency-and-Currency-Exchange-Rates)

<comment><USER4> Thanks for pointing that out. Though, it's a little more complex (and intrusive) than that.

I'm on an H-1B; every year the FBAR needs to be filed detailing how much money there is back home. Regardless of how it was earned, or whether it existed before I started working in the US.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I was initially disappointed that India didn't feature in the list of countries/currencies, and then I realized that something like this would be shut down here by RBI/IT Dept in a heartbeat.

</comment><comment><USER7> I've actually used Currency Fair to exchange between dollars and euros (and I'm completely un-associated with the company or anyone there). My experience was positive - it was actually fun, with a bit of drama to see if someone would take my offers. It took a bit of time to set up my transfers, etc, but it was significantly cheaper than I would have paid using a regular retail bank's foreign exchange offerings. Nice work!

</comment><comment><USER8> I've used this a few times to transfer money from Germany to the US. Worked fine. Only downside: US Banks seem to still recognise it as an international wire transfer and deduct the matching fees (10$ in my case).

But the exchange rate is better than what I'd usually get at my bank and the transfer from Germany to Ireland is free too.

</comment><comment><USER9> Is there a way that banks could use the system(as a peer, maybe an invented user) and cross the information with deposits in its own accounts, so they can know when a customer used this scheme?

i mean, the moment this get more traction and the banks figure this out, the party is over and people get the international fees in their bills

</comment><comment><USER10> Can the rates really be _that_ much better than any other online FX payment service?

2% all-in seems to be the going rate for the ones I've used. Since both sides on an exchange are looking for the market price, that only gives you 1% of potential improvement assuming the market is sufficiently liquid and efficient.

<comment><USER2> We have a blog post[1] which gives a good outline as to why CurrencyFair beats other options, allowing users to even beat the market rate.

[1] [http://www.currencyfair.com/best-exchange- rate](http://www.currencyfair.com/best-exchange-rate)

[edit: missing words :( ]

<comment><USER10> If one user beats the interbank rate, that implies that the other side of the trade lost out. The same number of customers who 'beat the market' also lose out by definition, so I think that's something to be wary of marketing.

In any case, my 1% assertion seems to be correct judging by a €600 purchase compared against FairPay (£513.73 rather than £519.26).

Incidentally, is your name inspired by Betfair?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Transferwise.com does the same, even have nice ads in London. [https://fbcdn- sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/55865...](https://fbcdn-sphotos- e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/558656_10151862749097326_1294583262_n.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER12> This is a brilliant idea. I always resented changing money, it never crossed my mind that a P2P platform like this could solve the problem so nicely. A perfect example of a problem staring you in the face…

<comment><USER2> Cheers :)

There's a good background to how CurrencyFair got started over on Forbes[1], if you're interested in reading more.

[1] [http://www.forbes.com/sites/dansimon/2013/10/18/entrepreneur...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/dansimon/2013/10/18/entrepreneur- interviews-brett-meyers-ceo-currencyfair/)</comment></comment>


Show HN: Online computer, software, and mobile inventory solution - <AUTHOR> https://assetbox.io

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello, I'm not looking for signups, if you could checkout the home and about pages and let me know what you think, that would be rad.

Also, the site should be mobile responsive, if you have a non-apple device, feel free to test.

Thank you</comment>


Increasing Email Click Through Rates with Minimalism - <AUTHOR> http://ryanluedecke.com/email-click-through-rate/

<comment><USER2> Great advice! Dharmesh from Hubspot seems to use similar strategies if you're part of "OnStartups" on Linkedin.</comment>


Uber CEO roadmap: Helicopters, motorcycle rides and food delivery (Kozmo 2.0) - <AUTHOR> http://launch.is/blog/exclusive-uber-ceo-lays-out-road-map-helicopters-motorcycles.html

<comment><USER2> i wonder if the company plans to pass along the staggering costs of a helicopter, private jets, and fleets of cars, to the end user. what would be the end users pricing plan for a helicopter from midtown to jfk? what other revenue sources does this company have? (maybe a marginal source from delivering food? delivering vital organs from hospitals?)

currently, to call a cab with uber in new york is more than 100% more expensive than it is to get a normal yellow cab. i can assume a small fraction of the general public would be willing to pay more for privacy and convenience (probably financial/legal elites). to keep a 'high liquidity' of cars will be expensive (particularly compared to new p2p car sharing models), especially when there is a high fixed cost and any unused cars would be eating away from margins.

i am just skeptical about this business model.

</comment><comment><USER3> I appreciate the bold vision. I also appreciate focus; here's hoping they get their current model fully fleshed out and in more hands before they expand into other verticals.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> this was one of the top five founder interviews i've ever done... Travis tells three epic stories.</comment>


Ask HN: Got a site that could be massively viral then fade -- how do I cash in? - <AUTHOR>

I just had a light bulb moment on the way home, checked GoDaddy for availability of the name I wanted, and lucked out and bought it.  The site has MASSIVE potential for virality based on an already highly widespread trending topic, but I suspect it's going to very quickly fade from public interest.
Given this information, what can I do to cash in?  I doubt anyone is going to be very interested in buying the domain/app (due strictly to the potentially very short topic lifecycle), so then what?
I've thought of:
- Ads (duh)
- Cafepress store, which would be great except it would be best to have an option for user customizable text to print on the clothing (this is going to be a lolcats-alike thing to begin with)
- Uh... that's all I've got.
Any other thoughts?  If I go with the ad model, is AdSense going to be the best option? Can I really expect a return on a week or two worth of ads?  Do I hope for a buyer and/or a longer lifecycle?
Can I expect a return at all on something that fades so quickly (if it does)?  It's going to spike the hell out of my servers, obviously, which is going to cost, and I'm pretty broke.
Look forward to any thoughts or feedback at all!
- John <comment><USER2> I have experience with this.

When the whole Conan O'Brien cancelation fiasco was going on, I registered teamconan.com and teamleno.com because I saw that phrasing in a TMZ poll and they were still available. My friend and I threw together a Facebook Group and put the domain on a Tumblr account. Within 12 hours we had 10k+ members in the FB group and were getting significant search traffic to the site. We were getting emails from people offering up 50-100 bucks to run a display ad (static image, not adserved) and we didn't even prompt for it. I only ended selling 2 of them and we donated the money to the Haiti Earthquake thing. I definitely could have made a lot more had I been prepared to sell display ads. Simply putting a link on the site with a contact email for advertisers will get you plenty of offers if you really are seeing massive viral traffic. Also, ALWAYS make a facebook page for the site you create. You can really ramp up virality and pages with a lot of fans can earn money with sponsored statuses (which is frowned upon heavily by facebook).

Also, for anyone that is interested: A few months afterwards, Conan's lawyer contacted us and asked to to give them the domain. I had no problem with that and now it currently directs to his official "Team Coco" site. We still have the FB group, it has lost about 200k members since its peak but still has 200k members: <http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=242166564197>

<comment><AUTHOR> Excellent thoughts -- I'll plan to include placeholders for simple ad placements that can be sold directly, and will definitely have contact info in the footer.

The Facebook page is also a great idea; I'll get it created and try to auto- post user creations to the page.

Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Charlie Sheen? It's already been done.

<http://livethesheendream.com/>

If not, that site is filled with good ideas.

<comment><USER4> That site is in a story on OK Magazine - [http://www.okmagazine.com/2011/03/charlie-sheen-quotes- live-...](http://www.okmagazine.com/2011/03/charlie-sheen-quotes-live-the- sheen-dream-back-up-after-traffic-crash/)

3 other such sites are listed in the comments. I think he missed the boat already.

<comment><AUTHOR> No question I'm late to the game, but I suppose I'm just banking on the, "it's a big internet," notion -- thanks for pointing this out, though!

<comment><USER5> Always execution. It CAN beat out the first movers. If you can make this work, please detail it more in the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> from how I interpret this you're saying this is all guessing, and you actually haven't executed anything ? This makes no sense, just do it. Right now you are worrying about things that may never happen, and is holding you back from actually getting it done. If you do get this massive traffic, come back here and personally message me, and we'll figure something out.

<comment><USER7> While I agree with the unlikelihood of "The Sure Thing" he claims, I think he's just trying to be prepared. If it's true that it hypes on a grand scale but will only last a week or two, I would want to be prepared with my monetization so to not miss a day of it.

<comment><USER6> I find it hard to take a viral app and make any kind of significant revenue in a short time, no example comes to mind. But if this was the case I would suggest, possibly a compliment iphone app that costs like 99 cents to capture paying customers of the apple market. This market seems to pay for things like this , example fart app.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, but unfortunately if it is time sensitive, the approval process required by the Apple market is a huge hinderance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > It's going to spike the hell out of my servers, obviously, which is going to > cost

Seriously? Just throw it on some decent shared host to start with. E.g. Dreamhost (no affiliation) offers unlimited everything for $9. Yes, "unlimited" is rarely unlimited, and you will probably want to migrate to something better if it takes off - but there's no reason to spend a lot of money to start with.

</comment><comment><USER9> t-shirts

c.f. snowpocalypse 2011

<comment><USER5> <http://madebyloren.com/posts/10> his blog

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The site is now live at <http://sheenme.me> \-- would love feedback!

</comment><comment><USER10> You could pick a relevant affiliate program (check out Commission Junction) and promote it.</comment>


Ask HN: Geek phone / Phone to work - <AUTHOR>

My girlfriend needs a new phone and she just told me that I could get a new one and she gets mine.
I have an HTC Magic, and my two options are Nokia N900 and HTC Desire.
The Desire is like the Magic, but with a faster (Snapdragon 1000Ghz) CPU and a newer version of the Android OS (2.1 and upgradeable to 2.2 Froyo) while I upgraded the Magic to 1.6 cyanogenmod, and it seems it will not be upgradeaable to 2.2.
As long as I've read
N900 pros:
   Hardware keyboard
   700+ Mb swap
   Great browser with flash support (although Android 2.2 features flash support as well)
   Maemo flavoured linux with out of the box linux shell
   Great 5Mpx Carl Zeiss Camera
   Great multi-tasking capabilities
   32Gb internal space + microSD
   Audio/Video codecs
N900 cons:
   Bug 6063 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6063)
   Resistive screen
   Far Fewer apps than in Android Market
   No portrait mode without exploiting a bug
   Bigger
   600 Mhz CPU
   Battery Life (Many people reports that it doesn't even last a full day)
When I first read about the Nokia N900 i got excited: a linux computer in my pocket!! But bug 6063, battery life and resistive screen and quite a deal breaker for me...
On the other hand, I have already used an Android phone for almost a year now, and yet it sometimes freezes and I have to reboot, and is sometimes slow and unresponsive the overall experience is quite satisfying, and I think that with a better hardware (like the Snapdragon CPU) and newer version of Android (like 2.2 Froyo vs 1.6 Donut which I am currently using) would addrees these problems.
Maybe the rumored Nokia 920 solves the aforementioned issues, but it is not even officially anounced yet, so we will have to wait. Moreover, Nokia N900 uses Maemo 5, and the next step in Nokia phones will be MeeGo (Nokia Maemo + Intel Moblin).
What do you think? Is the N900 worth a try? <comment><USER2> Everybody I know who has an N900 basically say it is an awesome pocket computer that happens to come with a really crappy to mediocre phone app. Basically if you mainly want to do nerdy linuxy things, and can live with lackluster phone performance then get one. Otherwise you're likely to get frustrated.

</comment><comment><USER3> > (Snapdragon 1000Ghz) CPU

Heh. That is one hell of a phone.

<comment><USER4> Maybe he should time-share it with a local university?

<comment><AUTHOR> Or with the World Comunity Grid with Boincoid, the port of BOINC to Android

<http://boincoid.sourceforge.net/>

<comment><USER4> That'll do wonders for your battery life. The OP probably has a portable generator hooked up to his phone anyway so he probably doesn't care, but for people with regular phones this might be an issue.

<comment><AUTHOR> Of course it will drain battery life. I don't intend to use it, only point that actually there is such application.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> You seem to have done an awful lot of research on the N900, why not put the same amount of time in to researching the HTC Desire if it is going to be a choice between those two ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, you're right, but if I take into consideration that I'm already an Android user, and I like Android but in my current phone it is sometimes unstable and slow, I guess that with a better CPU and updated firmware the experience with the HTC Desire should be far better than with the HTC Magic.

I wish the N900 was usable but the cons seem to shadow the pros. I hope the next generation Maemo/MeeGo phone is better.</comment></comment>


Why forgiving someone else is about you - <AUTHOR> https://www.npr.org/2020/07/28/896245305/why-forgiving-someone-else-is-really-about-you <comment><USER4> My therapist has recently recommend "The Grief Recovery Handbook"[1] to me to deal with a breech of trust in my life. I never thought of that as "grief" but as we went through it, it's really put a new perspective on things.

The book also talks about the importance of forgiveness and explains it this way:

"Since you cannot go back in time to change the past, forgiveness is about giving up the hope of a different or better yesterday. It relates to forgiving actions that were taken, that gave you the feelings of loss of control over your happiness. It's about acknowledging those things that another did or said that caused pain and making the decision that you are not going to let that hurt or control you anymore.

Forgiveness can be very empowering. It can give you the chance to be free of another person's emotional control. It has nothing to do with the other person. As was said before, it is something that is for you and you alone."

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Recovery-Handbook- Anniversary-E...](https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Recovery-Handbook-Anniversary- Expanded/dp/0061686077)

<comment><USER5> I personally frame it as taking responsibility for your feelings - <USER2> that you have in large measure conscious choice over the way you feel and can will it differently - and I think of it in opposition to what I perceive as a modern vogue for playing the victim, or worse, stacking up victimhood cards like they are spell multipliers and using them in a social competition to prove how much bigger of a victim you are than other people. But victimhood, as I see it, surrenders your well-being to forces external to you.

That all sounds pretty political, but everything social turns political above a certain scale.

Forgiveness is underrated, for sure. Take control over your self.

<comment><USER6> This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target, instead of letting it go. Not to say you shouldn't do what works for you, as long as you don't hurt anyone else in the doing of it - <USER3> to find it as you've put it here gives it the sense of general advice and recommendation, and in that sense it seems very much wanting.

<comment><USER7> _This sounds like a recipe for redirecting the grudge toward some other external target_

I think that's antithetical to the term forgiveness, so I suspect that's not intended by the parent comment(s). In fact, the exact opposite is how I read their comment, that is that you take your grudges toward external targets and let them go.

<comment><USER6> I don't know. Framing it in terms of opposition to a perceived political trend doesn't read that way to me, and my own relevant experience includes nothing to suggest that framing forgiveness in any way related to any kind of political _anything_ would be a useful way of dealing with the ramifications of past emotional trauma.

Perhaps the original commenter will come along and clarify.

<comment><USER5> I'm not trying to frame it as oppositional to a political trend, but rather that it's unfashionable an angle to take, to not take up the mantle of victimhood. I was commenting on the relative location of my position because I'm aware of its unfashionability as I write.

If anything, I was being peremptorily defensive, not redirecting to some other external target.

<comment><USER6> That's fair, but I'm still very unclear on how the one relates to the other.

How is this idea, "to not take up the mantle of victimhood," meant to be useful in, for example, forgiving my grandfather for what he did that one afternoon when I was still a small boy, and everyone else was out on a day trip somewhere? - that one afternoon much of which I'm totally unable to remember, but still, thirty years on, makes me queasy to think about.

To be sure, what happened that afternoon is between me and my grandfather and not likely ever to be reconciled in detail, especially seeing how he died a couple of decades ago. But the facts of the situation are fairly obvious, especially since I'm not the only one in my family with a story like that. So I think it makes a pretty good worked example, or the basis for one at least.

If nothing else, I can attest that dealing with the emotional ramifications of having an afternoon like that in one's past is a long process - I've been working at it for some years now, and even that's just since I realized I needed to start trying. So what I'm asking is, what is "not [taking] up the mantle of victimhood" meant to have to do with a process like that? In what way is it meant to make that easier, or even make that possible?

I mean, this is a fair question, right? Maybe I've misunderstood somewhere, but as far as I can tell you've framed it as a general prescription, so it seems reasonable to think it should be applicable here. But I have to admit that I'm not seeing how.

<comment><USER5> Not forgiving someone means holding on to a grievance and adopting the identity of a victim. That's mostly what I mean. But there's more.

There's an emotional comfort that lies in wallowing in grievance, and a variety of social rewards from sharing it with others - attention, commiseration, and a kind of cathartic semi-religious feeling of confession from the recital, which takes on the form of a kind of ritual if you've done it enough times; you need to set it up right so that the payoff delivers.

Of course I don't mean to deny your lived experience, and when I say "you" above, I don't mean you specifically. I'm simply aware, and wary of, the psychological traps that lie down similar roads. I especially don't want to let people who've hurt me in the past to get to define my identity or mental or emotional state; or I simply become a fragment of a mirror of their life, and not my own.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die"

Recently I realized I was poisoning myself with intense negative thoughts and feelings about someone. Then I also noticed those thoughts feelings were only impacting me, not the other person at all. Finally I decided to forgive that person for what they had done to me, and when I started that process it became evident that in order to accomplish it, I actually needed to forgive myself. I had to forgive myself for judging, for holding a grudge and for hating.

Then I wrote down a list of all the people that I felt even a little bit negative about. At first I thought it was going to be a short list, but it ended up including over a hundred people. So I discovered that hiding subtly in my mind and within my feelings, I was secretly holding anger/hate/negativity for a lot of people.

After putting together the list, I started wishing love and wellbeing to everyone in it, individually, one by one. Kind of like going through my body and taking care of every little wound or cut I could find.

I tried going through the list and having positive feelings about those people every day for a few weeks. It did wonders for me.

<comment><USER9> "Forgiving someone who hasn't changed is like encouraging a poisoner."

<comment><USER10> This quote comes from a relatively juvenile definition of forgiveness, namely forgive and forget. I can forgive someone for violating my trust without giving them the same trusted position they used to have.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> As somebody who's struggling to forgive somebody who's wronged me, I find this article to be a bit wishy-washy, like this:

> Reexamine your perceptions of life events that have trapped you in the role > of victim.

well, what if somebody really truly was a victim? What if one's parents have condescended and belittled them for decades? What if one's mother is abusive and drinks too much? What if somebody spent their entire childhood planning their escape from their parents (successfully!)

That kind of stuff doesn't just go away. Is it even possible to forgive somebody who honestly doesn't think they've done anything wrong?

<comment><USER12> You caught yourself in a trap (similar to which I also did).

Yes, your parents were assholes. What has to be realized is that yes: your parents were assholes and this probably did had a (severly) negative effect in your PRACTICAL life.

But what must be understood is that what is done is done. This doesn't meat that you say "my parents are ok". This means that you, on a deep level, realize that your parents have issues, and that those issues caused them to act out. In other words: they didn't knew any better.

The side effect of their issues was that your life was misarable, so you moved away from them.

What has to be understood is that yes, you indeed were at a disadvantage. But now that you moved away it's only up to you what you make of this. You don't have to visit them or call them.

What is meant by "forgiveness" is that you have to realize that "yes, your parents have issues and there is nothing that can be done about it. But now I'm free of them, so from now on it's up to me".

Forgiveness also means that you don't actively hate on your parents: ironicaly hating your parents will NOT hurt them: you will only hurt yourself by hating on them because you yourself will create self-conflit & rage & hate withing YOURLSEF.

So it's more of a "what happened happened, I'm free of them now so from now on it's up to me" \+ the realization that actively hating on them will only hurt you, not them!

<comment><USER11> Recently mother showed up unannounced at my house in tears and SCREAMED at my wife and I for HOURS and wouldn't leave. It was an absolute ambush. The reason? She wanted to get together earlier in the day but we had an appointment so we had to postpone it to later in the day. yes, that's all it takes.

Our son was TEN DAYS OLD at the time. That was 18 months ago.

Since then she's been the nastiest, most unpleasant person to be around and my father is condescending as hell and still tries to boss me around at 35 years old.

This doesn't really feel like a "the past is the past, people have flaws". This more feels like an assault on my day-to-day life.

It has been like this since I was a kid and I see not even the slightest bit of progress or self-reflection. When do I just call it quits?

<comment><USER12> Get yourself a restraining order.

And no, this is not an exageration.

Threaten her that she will never she her grandchildren again.

It's not your responsibility to try and help your mother.

The need/willingness for change has to come from her. If she won't even consider that it might be her fault and not yours she is a loss cause.

Until she realize this she is a lost cause and you are doing yourself a disfavor by guilt-tripping over her letting her upset your life.

<comment><USER13> Don't threaten them if you don't mean do it.

Really. A baseless threat will put your mother in the role of the victim—and the power of the victim role will let her throw more abuse on you. She will feel entitled to say nasty things.

Getting the restraining order or some similar action that cuts her off is what will free you from the role of the victim. From this place you can take pity on her. You have taken action to eliminate the oppressor. Maybe more will be needed. If you are ever so frustrated as to feel helpless about doing that "more which might be needed" then you are back at victim.

Good luck!

PPS — look up the drama triangle and the corresponding empowerment triangle. Might be useful ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> In which we learn that forgiveness is a suitcase word (prone to useless debate as each party uses a different definition)

[https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase- words/](https://alexvermeer.com/unpacking-suitcase-words/)

<comment><USER15> Aren't those the only words that matter?

Anything else, that everybody is clear and agrees on, might as well not be discussed at all...

<comment><USER16> If definitions are clear and everyone agrees on them, then discussion can be about whether those definitions apply. Discussion is then about the real world. The definition of murder is pretty clear and widely agreed on; there is plenty of room for discussion about whether it was Smith or Jones who committed it.

If definitions are unclear or people disagree on them, then discussion may either be about the definitions and not about the real world, or be incoherent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Corollary: Never tell anyone else you forgive them unless they ask for it. Otherwise it's just some sort of passive-aggressive way of telling someone they've wronged you and that you're the better person. If forgiving someone is for you and they're not asking for it, you can keep it to yourself.

</comment><comment><USER18> While law doesn't have place for revenge in a civilised society and rightly so, the need for revenge/retribution I suspect is quite innate. It's healthy to try to forgive but it's quite difficult, almost like you can't fool yourselves into thinking you aren't hungry.

<comment><USER19> Do you honestly believe revenge helps you?

<comment><USER11> If you take the high road while they consistently take the low road long enough, eventually you'll feel like a complete push over who lacks self- respect.

I personally have reached a breaking point in which I realize that if I don't do something different, then the people who've abused me will continue abusing me while all while I take the high road and try to be the better person.

I wouldn't call it revenge, because that sounds malicious. Let's call it tit- for-tat or "taking my ball and going home". If you repeatedly abuse me, you're out of my life. Call it revenge or call it whatever you want, but I'm simply not going to stand for it.

<comment><USER20> I don't think that is not taking the high road. When facing abuse, taking the high road is indeed not responding to the abuse with anything more than a firm, non malicious, self protecting establishment and enforcement of your personal boundaries.

Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed as taking the high road but it isn't the only way to healthily manage toxic people.

(Revenge imo is when one actively moves to harm an abusive person.)

<comment><USER21> > Refusing to respond at all and allowing abuse to continue can be construed > as taking the high road but it isn't the only way to healthily manage toxic > people.

In my experience, this is what people usually expect when they talk about "taking the high road" or "being the bigger person". It has zero to do with "healthily managing toxic people" and everything to do with comfort of whoever does not want to deal with conflict at your expense.

I had to unlearn these quite late, when I finally figured this out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> It makes some decent points, especially with regards to "forgiveness isn't necessarily about reconciling" and addresses other general misinformation about the idea.

What I always say is "Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned."

I think people hang onto a lot of negativity precisely because we so often hear garbage like "Forgive and forget" and "let bygones by bygones" which are phrases explicitly used by abusive people to indicate _you are the asshole_ if you use their track record of bad behavior to be skeptical of their latest empty promises. Such ideas get used to facilitate abusive behavior and tell you that the only way you can be a good and decent person is to set aside common sense and actively cooperate with their plans to victimize you again.

"Forgiveness is a gift. Trust is earned." helps make the distinction between the two things. It can say "I may no longer be mad and projecting a lot of negativity at you, but you haven't fixed anything at all from your end, so, no. Don't assume that means I will be a chump and fall for your garbage."

AKA: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

It's okay to say "I was burned by this person. There is zero evidence that they have changed and I will not trust them again." while also saying to yourself "I am sick to death of wallowing in my misery. I would like to leave this emotional pain behind and focus on other things. I would like to stop and smell the roses and be present in the here and now and enjoy today, regardless of what shitty things some asshole did to me in the past."

TLDR: Sometimes, clinging to old pain is a means to shield yourself from new harm. Realizing that can help empower you to protect yourself without wallowing in misery.

</comment><comment><USER23> My former best friend of 30 years turned into a greedy, vengeful, ego-driven criminal and after 15 years of keeping me away from his gambling (addiction) world (friends) he got me involved.

I am not an innocent party as I agreed to do something that I knew was wrong and stupid. Even kept saying such to him and everyone while we did such. When the stuff hit the fan he threw me under the bus to save himself from the cops. We tried to patch things up a few months later by continuing to run our outdoor recreation business, but the only day we were in business that season he stole portions of the profit.

When this all happened I was harsh and judged him.. saying i didnt even know him anymore and he's turned into a criminal. Thus, he won't ever speak with me again as I judged him (lol). The guy started doing some illegal scary stuff and as a friend I was pointing out he's going in the wrong and a very bad direction. Doesn't matter we will never speak again and I know the only way we will is for me to forgive him and reach out. But no he's become a criminal and ego/being revengeful/greed/being right yet he's so wrong is more important then 3 decades of friendship.

People change... him changing and the loss of our friendship hasnt been easy.

<comment><USER24> Excuse the cultural reference, but the outdoor recreation thing makes me think of a plot line from The Sopranos where an addicted gambler gets "busted out" by the mafia and ends up being force to do illegal things because of his debts.

Maybe it was the gambling addiction that lead your friend to doing illegal activities? Addictions like that can cause people to go out of control, it's a compulsion and a very sad one.

<comment><USER23> Yes and so am I supposed to give him a pass? He's going to keep going in the wrong direction until his addiction and it's action lands him in jail or something bad to teach him a lesson. Not sure I can teach him that lesson myself minus cutting him out of my life and all my family's life (he grew up around my family).

Also, when you put out he's doing wrong and going in a horrible direction he says i am horrible for judging him. He already almost got thrown in jail once, yet didnt get time. Maybe time in jail is what he needs to wake himself up from his addiction. Unfortunately, both his parents died early due to drug addiction.

Hard to forgive and reach out when all i can see is he will do the same until he works on quitting his addiction.

What would others do?

 __*im here in the mid-Atlantic area of the US. Didnt watch the Sopranos that much, but on a different note running that business with him was the best job I ever had. Customers loved what we offered and not only paid us but would write reviews on Facebook without asking. As well I was selling a service I loved and working with friends outside. It could definitely could have become a 100k summer business and more, but he ran the business like a Soprano and I ran it like Walt Disney. The latter is still blossoming decades later ... mob bosses not so much.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Forgiveness as discussed here is an internal emotional matter and easy to make a case for. Forgiveness becomes a public and contentious issue when the injured party is under pressure to once more trust the offender, to do business with them, to "let them back into their lives," etc. That's what the arguments are about, and that's when this idea of forgiveness gets perverted into "gee, you must be suffering spiritually under all that hatred and resentment towards Bob, why don't you let it go and let Bob borrow your car for his bachelor party road trip."

</comment><comment><USER26> As a rule if I feel someone makes an honest apology, I will almost always forgive them, at least if they did something to me (and I try really hard to apply the reverse and apologize sincerely if I think there's even a chance of something being my fault).

What I've found is that I'm far less-willing or able to forgive people for doing things to hurt people that _aren 't_ me. For example, I haven't talked to my grandmother in almost 4 years because she said some really racist stuff that would get this post flagged if I repeated it. Do these comments hurt _me_ , a yuppie white dude who's biggest problem is being bored from working at home? No, not really, but it's not just about me, and I feel like "forgiveness" would be insulting to the people who it does hurt.

I'll admit this might be a character flaw on my end, but I also don't see myself changing on that.

</comment><comment><USER27> I think revenge and forgiveness are big words with a lot of different meanings.

Someone close to me was raped a few years back. No witnesses (yeah, he was her boss and asked her to stay a bit longer), so the perpetrator could walk of free of worries.

It was enraging, but we simply learned not to care. What's done is done. Is this forgiveness?

However everyone i talk to in the city where it happened know that the particular restaurant is owned by a rapist, and i've said multiple time, to multiple people, to always ask the nearest formation center to know if they forbid/discourage female cook to apprentice in some restaurants, and if they do, which ones. It's not really revenge, it is just not supporting rapists.

</comment><comment><USER28> One of the most important aspects of forgiveness is a credible apology. We all know people who can't or won't apologize for their transgressions, or heard apologies that don't address the core issues of the transgression. When you hear a small child apologize, it's reflexive, like they hope to use it as a shield for any retribution or punishment. The true purpose of an apology is to convey contrition and growth from the aggrieving party to the aggrieved, which are both important to the ability to forgive any given transgression. A large part of this forgiveness article is about expressing yourself - perhaps to the aggrieving party - perhaps in order to achieve a satisfactory apology. In that way, an apology is like a confession of sin prayer. If you don't mean it, the person upstairs can tell and you won't be forgiven. Maybe this is one function of religion - helping us develop the important life skills of apology and forgiveness.

<comment><USER29> This is a complete misunderstanding, in my opinion. It is not an accounting of receipts and expenditures, not some "game theory" example, not an investment onto "the betterment of a society", etc. You don't need anything to forgive, to do the right thing, it is always in your power. It might be hard, but it has always been like that.

<comment><USER28> Well like elsewhere in the thread, people have mentioned that forgiveness is a complicated word. You should definitely learn to "let it go" regardless of whether you've received any apology, in terms of not letting it affect your psyche negatively, but in terms of future interactions with someone who wronged you and can't show contrition or growth, you have no obligation to put yourself into a position where they can do the same thing to you again. Hence, not a full forgiveness because your interactions with them are altered.

<comment><USER29> "Letting it go to feel better", in my opinion, is also an accounting, some self-objectifying robot maintenance. It is strange that people find it hard to imagine how to forgive without receiving anything back.

For one thing, I seriously doubt I'm in position to judge "growth" of other people.

<comment><USER28> I'm just not sure why I would continue to interact with someone who treated me badly without remorse. You might call it accounting or game theory, I call it self-preservation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> It's interesting to see modern-day "certified forgiveness coachers" transmit the millenia-old Christian teaching on sin, resentment and forgiveness.

<comment><USER31> was about to remark the same thing. Seeing an article like this in what is allegedly a Christian culture is a little bit funny.

Do we really need to teach people that forgiveness, properly understood, is an act of virtue rather than some sort of bargain?

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> In Orthodox Christianity they have "Forgiving Sunday" every year. Many people (in Russia, for example) ask for forgiveness once a year, and everyone forgives. Like for real, it's happening to folks of all ages, including progressive folks of 20-30 age.

</comment><comment><USER33> It's an old virtue that's thought to be good for society, which I imagine is why it's proselytized. But refraining from offering forgiveness need not be a burden. There are people I will never forgive, nor bother to think about. It's not a matter of carrying hatred, it's just a judgment. Forgiveness is an absolution that returns people into good graces: I don't see why, in a blanket sense, everyone who's done exceptional harm should return to everyone's good graces. Petty slights can be more easily forgiven, as everyone will eventually cause offense and consider it a mistake.

</comment><comment><USER34> There are so many articles on forgiving, letting go and so on, but so little on encouraging people to retrospect their lives and wrongs and give sincere apologies. World would be a little bit better if people were encouraged to talk their differences or mistakes, to give closure, or give an apology, even if it took months or years for them to understand. Moving on is the easy part; reaching out the one you did wrong and asking forgiveness needs tons of courage and mental strength.

</comment><comment><USER35> For a serious academic take on the topic, I recommend the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy's articles on _Forgiveness_ and _Reconciliation._

[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/forgiveness/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/forgiveness/)

[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reconciliation/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reconciliation/)

</comment><comment><USER36> There's some truth to this, but this therapeutic reduction does a disservice to the traditional (and fuller) practice of forgiveness:

> In the new therapeutic dispensation, however, forgiveness is all about the > forgiver, and his or her power and well-being. We have come a long way from > Shakespeare's Portia, who spoke so memorably in The Merchant of Venice about > the unstrained "quality of mercy," which "droppeth as the gentle rain from > heaven" and blesses both "him that gives and him that takes." And an even > longer way from Christ's anguished cry from the cross, "Forgive them, for > they know not what they do." And perhaps even further yet from the most > basic sense of forgiveness, the canceling of a monetary debt or the > pardoning of a criminal offense, in either case a very conscious suspension > of the entirely rightful demands of justice.

From: [https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/the-post-modern- self/artic...](https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/the-post-modern- self/articles/the-strange-persistence-of-guilt), which I highly recommend reading, as it's super relevant not only to our personal lives, but to the cultural moment we find ourselves in.

<comment><USER37> I agree. From a high-minded perspective, "Forgiveness has a PR problem" only if one is talking about a group that ignores the canon of religious teachers and what they've said about the importance of forgiveness and mercy, and what that actually means.

From a more basic approach, I don't know what playground Holub was on as a kid leading her to say "we're taught what we'll call "traditional" forgiveness when we're 4 or 5 years old," but I was taught based on Mr. Rogers (and my daughters were taught based on Daniel Tiger), that forgiveness still requires consequences. (See: "Saying sorry is the first step, then how can I help": [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICZVpmtL4c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICZVpmtL4c)).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I really have issue with the whole often repeated "If something was done to you that actually makes you victim of x, there is something wrong with you. You must not be victim, even when you was victim" thing. Its consequences is "I did not wanted to complain because that would make me victim" which is no good result.

I don't like the part where you have to make yourself responsible for it either.

<comment><USER38> You've got to make yourself responsible for your emotional reality, because you're the only one who can consistently influence it. Or at least, it's up to you whether you allow others to influence it.

No one denies that people really are victimized. But whether they let that victim vs. perpetrator mindset play out in their other relationships and lived experiences is (with time and practice) up to them.

<comment><USER21> I do not know what "victim mindset" is supposed to be. Victim is descriptor - something negative was done to you. You don't become victim by looking at things certain way. Nor you do stop being one. If you was robbed, you are robbery victim regardless of what your mindset is.

Most of this is about denying that you might be victim of something either to yourself or to others.

Plus, people actually really do deny that. If you read this article in full, majority of examples are about trying to figure out whether you don't misremember or misrepresent what happened.

<comment><USER39> In many scenarios you do become a victim by looking at things a certain way. Suppose I get in a nasty fight with a close friend, where she yells at me and calls me all sorts of nasty names and shoves me a bit before running away. There are two different ways I could process that:

* That conversation really spiraled out of control. We should get together, understand what went wrong, and make up.

* I'm an abuse victim! She emotionally abused me and then lightly physically abused me. She'd better apologize for the trauma she put me through.

The first attitude is especially important when I might be misremembering how things went or forgetting about what I was yelling back. But even if I'm 100% confident that my summary is fair and accurate, I don't think the second strategy is healthy, and I'd call the idea that I should embrace it "victim mindset".

<comment><USER21> The difference between the two options is not just subjective. There is real world difference between misunderstanding and abuse.

The big issue with calling 2 unhealthy mindset is that if you are actually in 'toxic' situation, it prevents you to find solution. This is one of things that makes people stay in abusive relationships. It prevents you to set boundaries, leave or cut people that needs to be cut. "It is just passion spiraling out of control" is real world way how people rationalize staying in abusive relationships. And then everyone is like "why did you not left", well because he/she did not wanted to be victim with unhealthy mindset.

And part of healing is to learn to recognize the situation for what it is and learning to leave.

This is exactly one of my reasons why I object. Because even if you are dealing with narcissist or someone who has abusive habits, you will insist on fault being in the middle, making up, reconciling, enabling.

Also, even in case of conversation spiraling out of control, it should not mean that I have to bend over to make up nor have to have boundaries pushed a bit again and and again each time it spirals. Sometimes, when conversations spiral out of control due to one person lacking self control, it is perfectly ok to NOT make up and decide that I don't have to deal with this.

<comment><USER39> I just don't agree with the implied dichotomy here, between good people who always treat others well (although they might have misunderstandings) and narcissists with abusive habits. Most people fall in the middle, where they're a bit of a jerk in their own idiosyncratic situations. If you get in a habit of sorting all bad behavior between "misunderstanding" and "abuse", you'll inevitably end up calling a lot of normal behavior abuse and a lot of okay people abusers.

<comment><USER21> I can fully agree with that.

But that does not make abusive situation matter of victims mindset, it is still matter of acts of the one who is doing it.

And when non narcissist acts abusive or have such habits, the very same person acting differently with different people makes no difference. You still have to solve the abusive situation you are in, nit the mutual misunderstanding nor things "spiralling out of control of no one's fault".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> A bit off topic but related, saying sorry means different things and it's used differently in different cultures[1].

In the US in particular, apologizing usually implies taking the guilt or responsibility (and sometimes even liability) for what happened. Unfortunately, this creates a huge incentive to not apologize, which then easily turns into bad feelings, grudges, anger and sometimes even lawsuits.

Interestingly, in the case of malpractice, apologizing reduces the chances a patient will file a lawsuit[2]. I wonder how many fewer lawsuits we would have, and how much healthier of a society we would be if we all apologized more.

[1] [https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/12004-apologies-around- the...](https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/12004-apologies-around-the- world.html)

[2] [https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-had-me-i-m-sorry- im...](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-had-me-i-m-sorry-impact- physicians-apologies-medical-malpractice-litigation)

</comment><comment><USER40> > Contrary to popular opinion, the practice of forgiveness is not about > condoning or making excuses for unfair treatment and other hurtful > behaviors. It's not about getting an apology or a show of remorse from the > offending party.

I'm not sure it's popular opinion to receive some sort of apology or show of remorse. What are other perspectives on this? My view has been that forgiveness is independent of an apology. An apology might lead to forgiveness for some, but shouldn't be expected nor is it a requirement.

As an aside, it also seems forgiveness has fallen out of favor as a public virtue, if not in popular opinion, then in practice. When someone makes a public mistake, many people want to make it as difficult as possible to move on, a vindictiveness that is the polar opposite of forgiveness. Or I'm mistaken, and the change is that everything is more public now.

Also, hope everyone had a laugh at "certified forgiveness coach."

<comment><USER41> For an example:

It's very common for victims of rape to be told to forgive the family member who raped them and not "cause drama" in the family.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> The forgiveness instructions in the article are very detailed and tie together many current popular ideas. Some people really like complicated systems, so maybe having so much to do helps them by crowding out the bad feelings that cause suffering. Another approach is to decide that being the judge is no longer your job, and to simply stop caring. It can be hard because caring about the injustice to done to you often reflects your best values: kindness, fairness, compassion. To turn off the judge in your brain can feel like you're abandoning your values. But forgiveness is actually work, and you have to ask yourself if it's one of those jobs that don't really need to be done. So the trick is separate your values from the work of being the judge, and choosing to keep your values but let other people be the judge. This approach has helped me.

</comment><comment><USER43> "To forgive and forget means to throw away dearly bought experience." - Schopenhauer

<comment><USER44> I used to believe that those two were the same but since a few years ago I have come down closer to this.

That said I really do forgive even if I don't always forget:

\- the person will get cake/discounts/etc and I won't seek revenge

\- I might not however hire them / defend them / etc

I've struggled a bit with this and a number of similar problems since according to my religion there's no forgiveness for me unless I forgive others and I actually have a past so I better not void the deal ;-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> The take-away about forgiveness I carry is that doing wrong things has a life- long burden. No amount of self-forgiveness can rid you of the burden of remembering you did a thing you have strong negative emotions about. If you did a stupid thing to yourself its a 'virtuous circle' but when you do it to somebody else (and, I did) then you carry a burden of your impact into another autonomous entitie's life.

I really regret what I did to them, and I regret what it did to me too.

No amount of forgiveness on their part will end this burden.

</comment><comment><USER46> The phrase "to forgive _someone_ " confuses me.

If you want to accept, no longer demand anything be said or done and move on wiser—and this is your definition of forgiveness—then I can understand that.

But forgiving _someone_ implies you do, say or treat someone a certain way. Most of the posts imply the opposite.

I generally accept someone's destructive past actions without demanding an apology and then move on with newfound caution and anger-dissolved-into- disappointment regarding that person, but would you say that is "forgiving _someone_ "?

</comment><comment><USER29> People considering a two thousand year old idea an original fresh take show how self-delusional the concept of "progress" and believing in being smarter than than brutes of the past are.

<comment><USER47> Progress is a different thing to having an accurate model of what long-dead people thought.

I mean, it can even be hard to accurately model someone who you're having a conversation with.

</comment></comment><comment> globular-toast My ex and first love cheated on me in the worst possible way. I'm certain I've been through a kind of grief that few people will ever experience as a result. But I just got over it. I forgave her in the sense that I understand what women are like now. She can't affect me any more. I've become so much stronger. I'm Stoic now. Time is the great healer as always. Therapy and all the rest of it are a massive swindle for the instant gratification age.

</comment><comment><USER48> I know this is a difficult subject for many. In any case, I can say this of my own experiences with forgiveness. I find that forgiveness really helps me feel happy.

</comment><comment><USER49> This is helped with practice.

Our family's cultural/religious background instills this process from a young age. Every evening, starting with the youngest child, everyone has a chance to say what they are thankful for that day and they are also given space to say 'I'm sorry if they feel they have wronged anyone.'

We teach the other children not to respond "that's okay" but "I forgive you" to properly acknowledge the wrongdoing.

It's amazing how joyful children get with these simple rituals.

</comment><comment><USER50> I think the letting go part they mention is important but letting go can be done in a different way. When you reframe the story, add a new chapter, one where the last battle you lost, but the new one you win. Holding onto toxic feelings is painful, you can either turn it into a good one (revenge), forgive (reframe), or forget (drug use and/or time). Most people forget unless it was really bad.

</comment><comment><USER51> Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

\-- Ephesians 4:26-27

This is something that Christians have proclaimed for a long time.

</comment><comment><USER52> Shameless plus, I wrote a few paragraphs on this very topic a while back: [http://jarbus.net/Forgiveness](http://jarbus.net/Forgiveness)

A core thing I want to mention is that Forgiveness doesn't excuse actions, nor does it mean you need to associate with people. Forgiving is purely about letting go of anger.

</comment><comment><USER53> I was recently introduced to the best article on forgiveness (and some politics) here the other day:

[https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can- tole...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GLMFmFvXGyAcG25ni/i-can-tole.).

I Can Tolerate Anything Except The Outgroup by Scott Alexander

</comment><comment><USER54> Forgiveness is a tough topic for many who have been hurt, so I expect we'll see many comments along the lines of "what about this?" or "this is unrealistic/too simplistic".

I hope we can be compassionate toward the skeptics in our replies.

</comment><comment><USER55> I have a hard time thinking that anything one does _isn 't_ about oneself first and foremost. Even when that action is self-destructive.

But this is probably just my view of existence.

</comment><comment><USER56> Plot twist: it's ALL about us, if you keep digging

</comment><comment><USER57> This podcast feels like Freud warmed over. It doesn't provide much insight into what goes on in people, or what they should do.

</comment><comment><USER58> > Without forgiveness, accumulated resentments extract a toll, says > forgiveness coach Kym Kennedy.

Without snake oil your accumulated borxins extract a toll on your health, says snake oil salesman.

We get angry to have an emotional STOP sign attached to certain experiences, people, things, etc. You should always forgive like you should always forget that fire burns. Go ahead, put your hand back in, get it out of your system.

<comment><USER59> I live with someone who does not 'forget' and accumulates. It eats at them every day. They get wildly angry at total strangers now for slight transgressions. I regularly have to walk them through how most of what happens is not aimed at them. People are just kinda of selfish or literally did not see you. It eats at them all the time. I find them sitting in a room. "what are you thinking" they will bring up something that happened well over 30 years ago as if it just happened to them 5 minutes ago. Sometimes it is how someone made a bad turn in front of them in a car, sometimes it is how someone swindled them for money. Yes, that was crappy what happened but if you live with that sort of thing all the time you will be depressed and angry (as you can do nothing now). You will bring down those around you. You will always be on edge and guarded against anything that may harm you. Real forgiveness takes 'letting go' of it. You can remember it so they do not do it to you again. But be careful not to hold on to it and relive it over and over.

<comment><USER58> Getting angry for nothing is completely another topic. There is nothing to forgive then.

Not forgiving does not mean you always think and remeber of. This yet another issue.

Not forgiving means just that. If anybody asks you if you forgave you answer no. Not that you despair every moment thinking about who wronged you when.

<comment><USER59> The forgiveness is not always for them. It is sometimes for you. That was their point. Forgiveness is a part of a process to 'let go'. Not doing it ever can create distrust issues with total strangers. I have seen it a few times with my own eyes. I am a large believer in 'little things make big things'. Lots of little bad things can accumulate into one large bad thing. The opposite is also true. You can chose to have non-forgiveness in your life. That is your choice. I always ask myself do I want to be the happy dude at the retirement home talking about my good friends or the bitter cynical guy who holds a grudge. One dude I know still holds grudges from the mid 80s. He lives them over and over. Because he can not let go. It has harmed him in every aspect of his life.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Just forgiving without erasing it from memory wouldn't help, since you relive through that act.

</comment><comment><USER61> Past is to be learned from, no to live in and no ammount of revenge will bring you peace.

</comment><comment><USER62> Emily fletcher has a great meditation on forgiveness, it's about 10 minutes long :)

</comment><comment><USER63> In this and many other conversations nowadays I find myself wondering how the narrative applies through the lens of three different groups:

\- Those who are generally in good health (mental and physical) and who may have experienced difficulties in the past but do not dwell on them

\- People who are victims and who encounter regular struggles as a result -- likely the intended audience of articles like this

\- Sociopaths who at best do not understand the emotional pain of others, and at worst enjoy inflicting it

I hope the advice in the article is genuinely intended to help people in the second group.

Sometimes I fear that content is authored or perpetuated by people from the third group who would prefer to place the responsibility for repair on the victims.

And frequently I find that the audience who reads and discusses it is the first group, without really understanding the others and in particular how charming, reasonable and attractive the third group can appear.

In short and in my experience: it is probably good advice but it should not detract focus from the harm that some people willingly cause.

</comment><comment><USER64> > a forgiveness author and peace educator

What is a peace educator?

<comment><USER9> Someone who doesn't want people to speak up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> I'm really glad to see this posted.

I think that "Forgiveness" and "Acceptance" are often confused. I feel that the important part, for ourselves, is "Acceptance."

I won't go into details, but Forgiveness and Acceptance have been a significant part of my life for about 40 years.

I have been on both sides of the coin. There are people who have had to Forgive me (or not), and have had to Accept wrongs that I did them, and I have had to Accept, and, in some cases, Forgive, trauma inflicted upon me.

A big part of my life has been dedicated to making sure that no one needs to forgive me, or accept unacceptable behavior, on my part, and in making sure that I don't set myself up for needless trauma.

In order to move past trauma, we need to "defuse the time bomb." We need to _Accept_ it. We may never be able to _Forgive_ it, though.

I'm thinking about genocide survivors (I've known a few, including from events other than The Holocaust), soldiers (including child soldiers), families of murder victims, and rape/sexual assault/assault victims (I have known many; including a number of males).

It's unreasonable to expect trauma victims to _Forgive_ their trauma- inflictors, but they _must_ get to a point of Acceptance, if they ever want to live a life that's halfway normal.

In some cases, it's because many cultures on Earth (including family/clan/tribal cultures) consider Forgiveness to be weakness, or trauma victims to be "at fault" (I won't get into the specifics, there, but it happens _-a lot_ ). Even in those cultures, if we can separate Acceptance from Forgiveness, there's a chance that people can heal.

Despite all that, I have seen some that have truly _Forgiven_ what I consider to be unforgivable acts. Before they can Forgive, though, they have _always_ first reached a point of Acceptance.

Those people are my heroes.

Acceptance means coming to terms with trauma. It happened. It sucked. It was deeply unfair. It was wrong. It may even have been downright evil. It left scars (sometimes, literally). It may even have been self-inflicted, or exacerbated by our own complicity. The perpetrators "got away with it," and are still walking around, unconcerned, unrepentant, and unpunished. It's not happening anymore. Despite all that, it still needs to be put into a place _behind_ us, and no one is going to be able to do that, except ourselves. Time won't heal this. It needs some elbow grease.

A very valuable part of Acceptance, is that it frees us to help others that have gone through (or are going through) the same trauma. If we can't Accept, we can't help others.

Another aspect of non-acceptance, is that unhealed trauma can actually make trauma victims dangerous. Hurt people hurt people.

I know many folks that have never learned to live in _Acceptance_ , and their lives are a vale of tears. When the external trauma stopped, it was replaced by internal trauma.

There's a story I was told (completely made-up):

 _A man walks into a building, is immediately beaten badly by another man, and thrown out into the street.

They get up, dust themselves off, put up their fists, and walk back in.

Same thing happens.

This is repeated a number of times.

Then, one time, they walk into the building, and the other man is no longer there.

So they go looking for them._

</comment><comment><USER66> "Live well. It is the greatest revenge" \--Talmud

</comment><comment><USER67> We can have cookie and eat it to: stop being angry at those who wronged you, just start plotting your revenge :) Treat revenge as just another item on your todo list, just like shopping or dentist visit. Or maybe even outsource your revenge by hiring a lawyer/PI/hitman to enact it.</comment>