A New Face for Pebble - <AUTHOR> https://blog.getpebble.com/2015/09/23/timeround/ <comment><USER2> Question for people who own Pebble watches - have you read the Pebble privacy policy? They track a ridiculous amount of stuff (everything from your GPS location and activity to what other apps you run on your phone), log it indefinitely (literally 'for a period of time') in personally identifiable form, and reserve the right to sell your data to third parties. It baffles me how people can be OK with this.

<comment><USER3> Yes, this isn't an alternative to Android wear or Apple watch, just more of the same. Fun fact: a few months ago I was looking for a wearable which had the option to store data locally - I looked at dozens of products and only three of them offered this. One needs a Windows app to transfer data over USB, the other is the Oregon Scientific Dynamo, which has a rather poor iOS app and is quite bulky and imprecise and the third one had a terrible companion app.

Everything else had a mandatory cloud sign-in and sync, with the typical meaningless privacy policy.

<comment><USER4> Google may store your data indefinitely, but it doesn't sell it to third parties.

<comment><USER5> Yet. That we know of. IIRC the way the relevant EULAs are written they could do if they wanted to.

<comment><USER4> I can't say I've actually read the EULA, but they do have a nice Privacy FAQ, which I assume is nearly as legally binding: [https://support.google.com/work/answer/6056650?hl=en](https://support.google.com/work/answer/6056650?hl=en)

"Google processes your data to fulfill our contractual obligation to deliver our services. Google's customers own their data, not Google. The data that companies, schools and students put into our systems is theirs. _Google does not sell your data to third parties._ Google offers our customers a detailed Data Processing Amendment that describes our commitment to protecting your data."

Another way to look at it might be, given your data is one of their biggest assets, it would be foolish to sell it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've always been a huge fan of "the underdog" Sure this isn't an Apple Watch or a Moto 360, but Pebble has truly created a beautiful product and I respect that. Great work to the guys at Pebble.

<comment><USER7> If the screen is anything like the Pebble Time it wont be beautiful. I love my PT but depending on the watchface the screen isn't easily readable in anything other than outdoor or very bright indoor lighting. There's a light up button, that helps. The colors are also very muted.

The value of a Pebble watch in my opinion is all in its practical utility, where it really shines. I have been careful to manage what sends my watch notifications and as such whenever my wrist feels buzzing there's something that I need to check. I can do so quickly without needing to pull my phone out of my bag. The time view for what I need to do next is very awesome.

Ultimately my Pebble Time saves me time, makes sure I don't miss important messages or events and it saves my phone's battery life since I check it much less often.

<comment><USER8> Reports are that the Pebble Time Steel, which uses the same screen tech, is much more vibrant than the Pebble Time due to the optical bonding. The PT Round looks to also use that same technique due to its thinness, so I expect it will look quite good.

<comment><USER9> Aha! I do own the Pebble Time Steel and couldn't identify with the issue of the poorly readable screen. I find it reads very well in direct sunlight, and when it's dark there's always the light button. I guess this explains the complaints.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It's pretty, but they're continuing to compromise core features (waterproofness, battery) which make Pebbles unique, while their software and abilities and displays lag far behind the pack (partly due to vendor lock-in).

I loved my OG Steel. But they won't compete against the Apple Watches and Moto 360s of the world by mirroring their shortcomings and price while providing none of the deep integration, apps, and features.

I think ultimately, the Pebble line will need to become the leader of the "Smart-ish" watches. They'll display notifications, and allow some very limited interactions, but will always be more watch than smart. This will work great for non-geeky people who would love to get notifications quickly and silently, while still retaining the advantages of a more conventional watch (don't worry about charging, water, durability or daylight).

Then, the wrist computers (e.g Apple Watch or Android Wear) will exist for somebody who wants the geekier, app-ier experience and will take some compromises for it.

<comment><USER11> That all sounds right, except...

I don't think that the Apple Watch or at least some Android Wear watches are aimed at a "geeky" audience.

And I don't think that anyone has found anything more compelling than "receive notifications" to use Apple or Android watches for.

<comment><USER12> > And I don't think that anyone has found anything more compelling than > "receive notifications" to use Apple or Android watches for.

I'd like to use a smartwatch for 2-factor authentication.

<comment><USER13> QuickAuth can be used on various Pebble models for 2-factor authentication on google, dropbox, lastpass, and others.

[http://apps.getpebble.com/en_US/application/53131df8bb31cf87...](http://apps.getpebble.com/en_US/application/53131df8bb31cf87cd00019a)

I feel it's safer than 2-factor using my phone because I might let someone else handle my phone to make a call, etc., but never my watch. Plus, I can invoke it faster than I can on the phone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> 2 days battery is disappointing. Making it slightly thicker and getting more days would have been fantastic. With 2 days you may as well charge it every night so you don't forget.

Still, this has a wow factor to me due to its slimness. The Apple watch could have been amazingly thin without the taptic engine: [http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/26f878cd9a24ea264d064c...](http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/26f878cd9a24ea264d064c40601ccf6f/201929876/apple- watch-taptic-engine-ifixit.jpg)

Its thickness is the main reason I'm not buying v1.

</comment><comment><USER15> It's worth noting that this device, unlike any of the previous Pebble devices, is not waterproof. I was smitten until I noticed this - not having to worry about getting it soaked while cycling or swimming is a rather nice feature of my Pebble Time and it looks like I'll be sticking with it for that (even if I do love the new design).

<comment> old-gregg Quoting from [1]:

 _Pebble Time Round is splash resistant but not waterproof. Incidental exposure to water–like unforeseeable rain–won't ruin your device, but submerging the watch is not recommended. Pebble's leather bands are not water resistant._

[1] [https://pebble.com/buy-pebble-time-round- smartwatch](https://pebble.com/buy-pebble-time-round-smartwatch)

<comment><USER16> Do people who wear those watches just wet their finger tips when washing their hands?

<comment><USER17> Splash resistance generally means it's fine in the shower and while washing hands, just not while swimming. Or, at least, that's how I've always interpreted it.

<comment><USER18> Same here. A certain amount of pressure will allow water to penetrate the seal (e.g. submersion), but it will hold up if it just gets wet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> When I first saw the announcement, I was really annoyed since I am a PTS backer. But, with the offer they're giving so that I can test out the new one, I'm pretty okay with it afterall. In fact, given that one of the reasons driving my decision to get the PTS was the ~10-day battery-life, I do not suspect I will even consider the PTR; but I _love_ that Pebble was self-aware enough to offer me the choice.

Good work Team Pebble! Keep on rockin'!

</comment><comment><USER20> Hmm, so this is an oddly-timed launch. I was just wondering if I should replace my ks-edition pebble with a pebble time, and now here I'm wondering about the pebble round time or whatever. The new round watch probably looks nice, although I'm worried about the bezel size and it not being waterproof. It does look a lot thinner and more watch-like than most other smartwatches, even before you get to the 7-day battery. My first gen pebble has about five days between recharges, despite being in constant use since I bought it.

That said, I think I'll stick with my regular pebble for now - I love the notifications I get on it, but that's its primary job and while the time(round)? is an improvement to display I don't see any of the features as must-have at this point. Seems like a great watch to get if you don't have one yet, but I'm not sure I want to spend $200+ there, especially since my ks model pebble is industrial orange, and they don't have that color anymore.

<comment><USER21> The new Time Round has a two day battery life, FYI. Even more reason to not buy it.

<comment><USER20> Woah, two days? I missed that in the description. Yep, not going to get one of those at all.

<comment><USER21> Apparently it fully charges in 15 minutes, which may not be so bad: plug it in whilst in the shower for example. I think it's a bit overpriced for what it is but I guess you're paying for the fact it's thinner and trendier with its round screen.

<comment><USER22> Two days is an awkward middle ground. It's not long enough to really get used to the fact that you don't have to charge it every day, but it's long enough that sometimes you might forget and end up having it die on you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> It looks like half the area of the watch is bezel.

<comment><USER24> I wonder if the bezel allows for a normal square display underneath?

<comment><USER25> The Nest thermostat also had a square screen under a cover that makes it look round. (Not sure if newer Nest models actually have circle screens.)

<comment><USER26> i believe the new third gen that was just released a couple weeks ago is the first Nest to actually use a round screen.

<comment><USER27> It's actually octagonal: [http://www.fastcodesign.com/3050576/3-design-trends- hiding-i...](http://www.fastcodesign.com/3050576/3-design-trends-hiding-in- the-new-nest-thermostat)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Great company, great watch. But boy how they struggle to keep that bezel small. All generations have that huge bezel.

<comment><USER29> Same and many of their images are really, really misleading like when they show a black clock face with the black bezel makes the watch look AWESOME with a great sized screen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Same price as the Moto 360 with half the features and twice the bezel on top.

<comment><USER31> And about 1/5th of the "I've strapped a toy can of dog food on my wrist" from the 360's thickness...

<comment><USER32> What's interesting to me, is that people are starting to forget how thick mechanical watches were.

Here's a Rolex[0] (Sea-Dweller 4000). Here's a Moto 360[1].

And now instead of holding eWatches to the same standard as mechanicals, it has turned into another thickness race.

[0] [https://imgur.com/TVroPQp](https://imgur.com/TVroPQp) [1] [https://imgur.com/Vbve1pq](https://imgur.com/Vbve1pq)

<comment><USER33> You picked a horrible example. Rolex Sea Dweller is amongst the thickest of dive watches because it's designed to be taken to extreme depths (depths no human will ever descend to in a diving suit).

Here's Piaget Altiplano for example: [http://blog.luxurybazaar.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/02/Piag...](http://blog.luxurybazaar.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/02/Piaget-Altiplano-900P-7.jpg)

or

Blancpain Billeret [https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/236x/62/39/fa/6239fae47...](https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/236x/62/39/fa/6239fae477fddf817e2004e535d26e10.jpg)

<comment><USER34> Well, that's true, but you went to the other extreme of the spectrum: Piaget's specialty are ultra thin watches, I don't think it's a much better example.

Mechanical watches under 7mm are already considered thin; more usually they are 9-11mm. Quartz are easily thinner.

I think smartwatches currently around look thicker because of case and lugs design. For example, the Sea-Dweller is 18mm, but the side of the case is not flat all the way like the 360, the case back is actually inset, so it's less noticeable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I have a Garmin watch, it's as smart as it gets (display weather forecasts, SMS, emails, tracks activity, runs 2048 and Tetris if you care), last a full week on a charge, is waterproof, and is way cheaper than most "smart watches". Android wear, Apple watch? Sheesh.

<comment><USER36> Indeed, vivoactive owner here.

By the way, Pebble says the time round is "7.5mm thin and weighing just 28 grams". Doesn't define if the weight measurement includes the strap or not. The vivoactive is 8.0 mm thin, 18g without strap, 38g with strap. So at least the "lightest" claim is probably not accurate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I don't understand why when we are mimicking analog watch design, can't we retain the proportions and the aesthetics?

Eg,the ratio of strap and the width of the watch face and the super wide bezel.

I hope they up their game as competition in this space is getting heated.

[Hopefully constructive criticism from a Pebble owner.]

<comment><USER38> The Withings Activite does a much better job of mimicking an old watch, but it's also much simpler (just an activity tracker) and doesn't have an LCD screen.

[http://www2.withings.com/us/en/products/activite- pop](http://www2.withings.com/us/en/products/activite-pop)?

Practically, the issue with the current gen is that they need as much battery as possible. Bezels and weird shapes are both a good way to add volume and battery.

<comment><USER39> Mondaine has a similar watch (classic look, with activity tracker): [https://www.mondaine.com/watches/mondaine- helvetica.html](https://www.mondaine.com/watches/mondaine-helvetica.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> The technical info is quite hard to find. Had to click on 'buy' to get this: [https://pebble.com/buy-pebble-time-round-smartwatch](https://pebble.com/buy- pebble-time-round-smartwatch)

</comment><comment><USER41> Ugh. Now, I've been a big fan of Pebble, and a two-time backer ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9101787](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9101787)), but I'm skipping this one. Truth be told, I'm not even particularly happy with my current Pebble Time/Time Steel. The screen still has a huge bezel around it, and the colors don't pop nearly like they did in the pictures. In fact, I'd describe the new color screen as a bit washed out. Voice replies and quick replies don't work on iOS (I know what the reason is, and I don't care because that was a listed feature when they wanted money).

The new ones are delicate, too. I've got an actual scratch on both the bezel and screen on the Time (thankfully, a screen protector covers that up) from just brushing against a wall. The Time Steel has a scuff on the bezel from who knows what.

Now we have the option to have even a bigger bezel, and the battery life has been cut to about the same as Pebble's competitors. Might as well buy an Apple or Android watch (or Microsoft Band, if that's your thing). And were I to buy another smartwatch, Apple is what I'd buy. For $100 more, all of the advertised features work, and the battery life isn't all that much worse. Or if I just wanted notifications, one of the Garmin devices, which I could also use to go running without toting a phone.

For the moment, Pebble's remaining advantages are price and battery life if you don't get the round one. And Garmin can meet or beat them on both right now, depending on one's need of other features. I'm interested to see what the next version has to offer, because it better be a big jump if they're going to stay competitive.

</comment><comment><USER42> This is very weird tbh I mean you just shipped thousands of people something And now you announce something which makes that look old.

It's scary to own something from a company like this. Am i to understand that I wont be getting updates on my Pebble Time in the near future because there is a new kid on the block ?

<comment><USER43> > you just shipped thousands of people something And now you announce > something which makes that look old.

So... just like Apple does every year, not to mention pretty much every other hardware company in existence? The alternative is not to make anything new, which would just be dumb.

> Am i to understand that I wont be getting updates on my Pebble Time in the > near future

Well, seeing as Pebble Time is still a brand new product, and I'm still getting regular updates on my original Pebble Steel, which is another generation older, I'm gonna say "no".

<comment><USER42> Apple or Google announcing new flagship phones every year vs Pebble announcing a new watch in a matter of months ? Can't exactly draw parallels here. Something similar would be Apple announces iPhone 6S now and iPhone 6S+ in 3 months.

<comment><USER44> Keep in mind though that this is same watch internals in a differently shaped case. It doesn't take a year to do that.

<comment><USER42> True that.

But the thousands of Kickstarter backers might have loved an option

<comment><USER45> They're giving all the Kickstarter backers who chose Pebble Time Steel the option of exchanging for a Pebble Time Round at no extra cost.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I wonder what is viewable screen size in sq. mm. of different Pebble watches. I suspect they compromised on screen size a lot on this model and make it look bigger via wide bezel. Anybody have real data? It also would be good to see a side-by-side picture of Time and Time Round.

</comment><comment><USER47> What makes a pebble watch any different from an apple watch?

<comment><USER48> They use an e-ink display for one which means a week of battery life(or 2 days in the case of the round).

<comment><USER49> Yeah, this is huge for me. It also charges super fast, so when it runs out, I can slap it on its magnetic charger, and pull it off 5-10 minutes later if I need to run, and it'll have enough charge to get it through to a time when I have 30 minutes to charge it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Still no Windows Phone compatibility.

And their SDK page [1] isn't very helpful to understand what's its purpose, including if it's useful to create an app communicating with the device for incompatible smartphones.

[1] [https://developer.getpebble.com/round/](https://developer.getpebble.com/round/)

<comment><USER8> I've seen some Windows developers getting advice on the protocols used to talk to the watch on their Slack channels. I don't think you'll see Pebble implement a Windows host app, but they've not been too hostile to the idea.

The watch-to-phone communications methods are the same with the Pebble Time Round. It looks like the differences are all in how the UI of the watch is rendered, and those are pretty major. However, outside of the screen, the hardware is very similar to the already-deployed Pebble Time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I really wanted to pick up a Pebble Time when they publicly launched. I was so disappointed to see that they were charging €250 (~$280) in Europe while only $199 in The States. Now, the Steel and the Round are €300. It's just too much money. Even considering VAT, the difference in price between EU & US seems excessive

</comment><comment><USER52> There's no excuse for it not being waterproof to at least the 1m level. What's their problem? It doesn't need to be openable. The previous models were not. Just seal it up permanently, preferably under dry nitrogen so it can't corrode inside.

<comment><USER53> Actually there are many mechanical design issues to consider when building a waterproof product: wall thickness, button design, mechanical seal, ...

"seal it up under dry nitrogen" doesn't even start to describe the process accurately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> Saw one in the real - rightly or wrongly I just have some inbuilt revulsion towards bezel.

</comment><comment><USER55> Will these still support Smart Straps?

<comment><USER56> Most likely, since the connector on the back is the same (same USB charging cable as the Time). However, the band sizes are different (14mm/20mm vs 22mm), so you would have to make a band specifically sized for the Round vs. the Time/Time Steel.

Edit: Here's some confirmation on the smart strap support: [http://developer.getpebble.com/guides/#hardware- comparison](http://developer.getpebble.com/guides/#hardware-comparison)</comment></comment>


Dear Dad, Send Money – Letters from Students in the Middle Ages - <AUTHOR> http://www.medievalists.net/2015/09/05/dear-dad-send-money-letters-from-students-in-the-middle-ages/ <comment><USER2> Timely post. My Father (80) is in the process of publishing a book titled "Dear Mom: Letters Home From a Diplomatic Courier 50 Years Ago."

Basically his Mother kept all the letters/postcards (~700) he sent home during his time traveling the World with the State Department. He recently began digitizing them to compile a book. It is almost a re-life Forest Gump story...a man in Moscow at the height of the cold war; being in Vietnam 6 years before the War and seeing the stage being set; camping in the Himalayas watching Chinese aggression against Buddhism; commenting on Black Churches being bombed in the South back home, etc...But really what is most striking is we think communication has changed so much in 50 years (internet, social media) but there is no doubt what we communicate is otherwise unchanged, like OP students requesting money in the middle ages.

For those with interest here are a few letters, interested to hear the reaction of anyone outside friends/family: [https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wudj58edm2fjqd9/AAAQuGGfqE61orF5a...](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wudj58edm2fjqd9/AAAQuGGfqE61orF5aLTk9abAa?dl=0)

<comment><USER3> These are wonderful! Your dad was quite the ladies' man too. I love the depiction of the Bengali princess: "...I doubt if she realizes that there are a group of people on earth who actually work and it is this which makes the world go around. She floats endlessly in her world of art, poetry, and creativity... It will be a considerable relief when this girl has returned to London and I can become rested again..."

Would he mind a suggestion on the title? If this book is as good as the letters you shared, people will be reading it 10, 20, 30 years from now. So "50 Years Ago" is a bit of a moving target. Not sure if it would be an improvement to just mention the actual decades in the subtitle, or a reference to the events of the time, or maybe just leave out the "50 Years Ago" entirely since as you noted this is really timeless. Just food for thought.

Please put up that email subscription form! :-)

p.s. Any chance of an ebook or Kindle edition?

<comment><USER2> billbrowndearmom.weebly.com

<comment><USER4> [http://billbrowndearmom.weebly.com](http://billbrowndearmom.weebly.com)

Clickable link. Looking forward to reading the rest !

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "The city is expensive and makes many demands; I have to rent lodgings, buy necessaries, _and provide for many other things which I cannot now specify_."

The list of bars and parties a student has to attend before graduating grows too long to be put on a letter.

<comment><USER6> One letter was surprisingly honest about the need to drink wine. But I totally get why most students can't specify those expenses in detail.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> As a kid, every time I tried to hoodwink my father into bogus school supplies expenses he would recite this joke about a medieval student sending a letter to his uneducated father. After some platitudes similar to the ones in the article, the punchline was more or less like this (loses a bit in translation): "Three books I have to buy: Marcus, Tullius and Cicero. At three royals each, nine royals I need".

The response was: "Marcus Tullius Cicero is one book. Here I send five royals, so you can send back two".

</comment><comment><USER8> Conspicuously absent:

"you can scarcely imagine how expensive our text books are. Having tried to save some money through the purchase of a second-hand edition of Euclid's Elements, I am at risk of failing that class. The only change is that for this year's edition for some reason all the postulates have been renumbered, making it impossible for me to use the text in class."

</comment><comment><USER9> I can't help but wonder if one day people will be looking at how adorable ancient programmers were in the 2000's with their "monitors" and "smart phones."

</comment><comment><USER10> I like how the kid butters him up a bit before just admitting that he's asking for beer money. Refreshingly honest.

<comment><USER11> Of worthy note: "In the year 1400 he penned this imaginary letter from a student to his father:"

<comment><USER12> So that particular letter was a parody?

<comment><USER13> Yes, that one was, although it's still medieval.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Dear Dad, send money. Dad: 404

</comment><comment><USER15> It was easier for me - I just needed to ring my parents and collect cash at the post office.

But I kept the tradition going - first telling mom and dad how I'm getting well along with studies!

Great times

<comment><USER16> You had to call your parents and wait at the post office? How old fashioned! Today my parents can just look at my credit card bill online and decide if they want to pay for any expenses.

<comment><USER6> Your parents check your credit card bill? In my time, they just regularly transferred some money to my bank account.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> My grandfather went on a trip around the world as a coaler in 1894. His mother kept his letters home, and I transcribed them a few years back.

[http://walterbright.com/trip/chas.html](http://walterbright.com/trip/chas.html)

</comment><comment><USER18> Is the link dead? I get a 404.

</comment><comment><USER19> RE: Thine assay on my coinage -

Costly thy habit as thy purse can buy, But not express'd in fancy; rich, not gaudy; For the apparel oft proclaims the man, And they in France of the best rank and station Are most select and generous, chief in that.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend, And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

</comment><comment><USER20> Ceres and Bacchus while he really meant Venus.

<comment><USER21> I get Bacchus, but I'm drawing a blank on what does he means by Ceres and Apollo

<comment><USER22> Ceres = goddess of the harvest (grain, bread) Bacchus = god of the vine (wine) Apollo = god of light (enlightenment / knowledge)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> We were tought in primary school how to write such telegrams in least possible words ..</comment>


What a useless commit (Linux Kernel) - <AUTHOR> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=690b0543a813b0ecfc51b0374c0ce6c8275435f0 <comment><USER2> > [The author being 4 years old needed some assistance]

Maybe that is the reason?

</comment><comment><USER3> where does the title 'what a useless commit' come from?

<comment><USER4> The OP, I'm guessing. The commit itself appears to be a documentation formatting change.

<comment><USER3> right, I thought maybe it was an example of Linus being rude but couldn't find anything. Considering the original committer is 4 years old and 'needed a little help' I thought it was in bad taste if it was the OP.</comment></comment></comment>


A tale of the supreme competence of Neil Armstrong - <AUTHOR> http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/08/neil-armstrong-rip/

<comment><USER2> He overcame some computer problems as he landed the Lunar Module as well. His experience, knowledge, and sheer courage were amazing.

<http://www.doneyles.com/LM/Tales.html>

 _ABSTRACT: The Apollo 11 mission succeeded in landing on the moon despite two computer-related problems that affected the Lunar Module during the powered descent. An uncorrected problem in the rendezvous radar interface stole approximately 13% of the computer's duty cycle, resulting in five program alarms and software restarts. In a less well-known problem, caused by erroneous data, the thrust of the LM's descent engine fluctuated wildly because the throttle control algorithm was only marginally stable._

<comment><USER3> This story was mentioned in the penultimate paragraph.

<comment><USER4> That paragraph only said the Eagle was heading towards some boulders. It didn't explain why.

In any case, as was said in the antepenultimate paragraph, it seems Neil Armstrong really was the right man for the lunar landing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> >Although the comparative lack of hands-on control led some astronauts to call themselves 'spam in a can', these missions called for both the highest order of technical skill and the steeliest of nerves. Aldrin's pulse-rate at blast- off was only 110 and, within minutes of landing on the Moon, Armstrong's was down to 90.

[http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n17/steven-shapin/what-did-you- expe...](http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n17/steven-shapin/what-did-you-expect)

Man, I sometimes have a hard time walking around my office when it's pitch dark and no one else is around.

<comment><USER6> _"... Aldrin's pulse-rate at blast-off was only 110 ..."_

Excellent read. John Young had pulse-rate measurement of 70 (probably 16 as told by Al Bean) which meant everything was going OK during launch. cf _"In the Shadow of the Moon"_ ~ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Moon#Apol...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Moon#Apollo_16)

<comment><USER6> as told by Charlie Duke ~ <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c77ED7ZsMc>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This reminds me of an article [0] I read in the German brandeins magazine some years ago about the improvisations Sowjet Union cosmonauts had to do in orbit (English translation [1]). So whereas US astronauts were not as free (or forced to be as free) as their Sowjet counterparts, they still had their skill set by hand. These were fascinating times.

[0] [http://www.brandeins.de/magazin/wir-rechnen-mit-allem-die- ku...](http://www.brandeins.de/magazin/wir-rechnen-mit-allem-die-kunst-der- improvisation/anarchie-im-all.html)

[1] [http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brandeins.de%2Fmagazin%2Fwir- rechnen-mit-allem-die-kunst-der-improvisation%2Fanarchie-im-all.html&act=url)

</comment><comment><USER8> I once had the opportunity to ask a fighter pilot what flying such an advanced jet in a tactical situation was like. He said, "Like doing calculus while lifting weights."

No wonder getting that sort of job is hard!

<comment><USER9> Especially impressive to say "calculus", which shows actual awareness of mathematics, and suggests that the speaker really has tried something like that. Usually people say "algebra" when they want a word that just sounds mathy.

<comment><USER8> Not that unexpected, though. Pilots in general, and particularly fighter pilots, usually have a technical background on par with a four year degree in science or engineering. Often more.

Astronauts, even more so.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you like reading about this, I recommend "The Right Stuff" by Tom Wolfe.

He also explores the interesting dynamics of how the astronauts using "simple" rockets became more famous than pilots who achieved stick-based flight to near-space levels.

<comment><USER11> Noteworthy that Armstrong as an X-15 pilot falls in both of these groups.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> They should make movies about people like him (and the whole NASA staff actually), instead of another Captain America or whatnot. Real people, with good sides and bad sides, but who did amazing things.

<comment><USER13> <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120570/>

Don't be put off by the fact that it's a "TV mini-series". It's 12 hours of "Apollo 13"-quality shows.

<comment><USER12> Thank you, didn't knew about that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> Another tribute I very much enjoyed: "Neil Armstrong, In His Own Words" [http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/Neil-Armstrong-In- His-...](http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/Neil-Armstrong-In-His-Own- Words-167547355.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> That's a fascinating story. I'm curious what would it actually feel like to rotate 1 rotation per second in space? I guess the bigger factor may be location within the spacecraft (e.g. I imagine if near the center it would be much less stressful).

<comment><USER15> I just tried the the old spin the office chair, with a buddy counting roughly 1 revolution per second. I was holding my laptop and trying to surf.

I feel sick now.

<comment><USER16> Don't forget this happened while he was in a spacecraft orbiting the earth when this happened, AKA free-fall or (approximately) zero-g until it started spinning. Here on earth it's probably not even possible to recreate the conditions he experienced.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> To present another side: I remember from reading Chuck Yeager's autobiography that Neil Armstrong was also a bit cocky and "know-it-all". However, I cannot find a quote of the passage online.

I did find this interesting anecdote in which Neil Armstrong _doesn't_ appear quite so clever: <http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/yea0int-7>

<comment><USER18> It should be pointed out the Neil Armstrong was US Navy and Chuck Yeager was US Air Force, so there is a bit of inter service rivalry. Chuck Yeager did tweet '"Too bad we lost one of our good pioneers. Neil (Armstrong) was a good friend and we'll miss him" - General Chuck Yeager'. Yeager's comments seem to jive with a lot of others that Armstrong was a great engineer.

<comment><USER19> It kind of freaks me out that Chuck Yeager has a a twitter account.

<comment><USER20> It kind of freaks me out that Chuck Yeager is still alive (89 and going strong). From The Right Stuff, he seems like he's from an earlier generation than the astronauts, but I guess he was roughly their contemporary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The closest call was that story where he bailed out of the training LEM a split second before it stalled out and exploded...

<comment><USER22> Yeah, and from what I've read/heard about the incident, he just casually went along with the rest of his day, like nothing even happened.

Here's a great photo of it: [http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/08/neil- armstrong-19...](http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/08/neil- armstrong-1930-2012/100359/#img09)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> A cockpit video from one of the shuttle missions: just after launch, with the boosters still attached and burning at full thrust, the commander turned to the pilot and asked, "Feel that? That wobble is from the wind blowing through the fuel tank strut..." Right Stuff indeed.

</comment><comment><USER24> His copilot on that Gemini mission, David Scott also praised Armstrong's actions. In the book Two Sides of the Moon he wrote something to the tune of "I don't know how Neil did it, but he did it", but I think it was related to pushing some buttons in an awkward place in an overhead panel in the spinning spacecraft with little time left.

I think that's closest there can be to an original source for that event. Scott was there.

</comment><comment><USER25> This spring I read _Lost Moon,_ Lovell's account of Apollo 13 co-authored with Jeffery Kluger. There's nothing routine when you're surrounded by a couple of hundred thousand miles of hard vacuum.

[http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Moon-Perilous-Voyage- Apollo/dp/B0...](http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Moon-Perilous-Voyage- Apollo/dp/B007BWGOHS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346210416&sr=8-1&keywords=lost+moon)</comment>


Type all the things - <AUTHOR> http://jto.github.io/articles/type-all-the-things/ <comment><USER2> Haskell has newtype for this purpose, with the benefit that the compiler removes the added overhead of the additional data type.

<comment><USER3> Value classes serve this purpose in Scala: `case class Id(id: Long) extends AnyVal` will have long-typed values at runtime (*mostly).

<comment><USER4> Is *mostly even true?

Given the list of restrictions here: [http://docs.scala- lang.org/overviews/core/value-classes.html](http://docs.scala- lang.org/overviews/core/value-classes.html)

It seems to me that you'd have to be fairly careful to have any confidence your not instantiating classes for them.

Do you know if there are any compiler flags or other way to know if your value classes are working as expected?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > [Re: Type Safety] It may not feel like much, but it is huge. Here I can only > ask you to believe me.

That was the part I agreed with you the most.</comment>


Redbox Acquires NCR, Blockbuster Express For Up To $100 Million - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcompany.com/1814438/redbox-acquires-ncr-blockbuster-express-for-up-to-100-million-boasts-more-locations-than-mcd

<comment><AUTHOR> The headline here appears to be a bit misleading - according to a report in Forbes[1], Coinstar/Redbox has acquired NCR's DVD kiosk business (which ran under the Blockbuster Express brand), _not_ the entirety of NCR.

<edit> The Redbox press release [2] makes it clear that they have only acquired NCR's entertainment line of business.

[1] [http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavitz/2012/02/06/ncr-q4-top...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavitz/2012/02/06/ncr-q4-tops- forecasts-full-year-outlook-above-street-ests)

[2] [http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/redbox-to-acquire- th...](http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/redbox-to-acquire-the-assets- of-ncrs-entertainment-line-of-business-nasdaq-cstr-1615655.htm)

<comment><USER2> Thanks, the article wasn't terribly clear on this either. I found it kind of odd that Redbox would aquire a POS solutions provider...

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Isn't that bad for the consumer when a near duopoly buys the competitor?

<comment><USER4> They have a monopoly on dvd kiosks but streaming is still an alternative.

<comment><USER3> Redbox has all the new releases, streaming never does (at least not under the monthly all you can eat).

<comment><USER5> I've never tried it, but www.vudu.com seems to have most new releases.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Tesla's Model S Lease and Financing Program Expensive, Misleading - <AUTHOR> http://blog.caranddriver.com/teslas-model-s-lease-and-financing-program-expensive-misleading/ <comment><USER3> When this first came out a few days back I said this had the chance to be a much bigger problem than the NY Times piece: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5482963>

Ok, now I got "how smart am I" out of the way. Tesla can have stumbles as a product and we can forgive them because they're blazing a trail and early adopters understand that comes with the territory. I for one did not care too much about the NY Times article. It was such an extreme use case (traveling all that distance in freezing cold) that would solve itself within 18 - <USER2> months. It would not have impacted my buying decision. The response from Elon gave me more pause. "Wow, there's such a defensive attack response from this company. What happens to me if I buy one and it's a lemon? It can happen. Do I feel like they'd be supportive or blame me for everything that went wrong?" More troubling than it needed to be.

This now takes them into entirely new territory. This goes to the one feature that's critical to the success: credibility and trust. Carandriver says it best when they basically say "Why are they pulling these shenanigans? They don't need to. It's an awesome car"

What really matters is if I were in the market for a new car in the next 12 months up until pre NYTimes Tesla would have been my top choice. Post NYTimes I would have asked a lot more questions if I was going through the buying process. Now I would not buy a Tesla for at least 12 months as I want more proof points around what exactly is the culture of this company.

Elon will publicly apologize for this within 30 days is my best guess.

<comment><USER4> "Elon will publicly apologize for this within 30 days"

If we can assume he knows nothing about this ad then we can assume he will fire the people (and/or agency) involved in this advertising black eye.

<comment><USER3> Well with Elon's personality type you know nothing would go out like this without his knowledge. But we don't have to guess - he was in the video personally announcing the $500 lease plan.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The only thing that irks me here is how the cost of fuel is deducted from the cost of the lease:-

If I'm paying $1200/mo for a lease, and any fuel / maintenance costs are on top of that amount. If I get an S-Class for $1200/mo, the fuel would be (for example) $200/mo on top, the total being $1400/mo. Increment accordingly for maintenance.

Tesla S is $1200/mo. I don't need fuel, hence I don't pay anything on top. It doesn't magically become $1200 - $200 = $1000/mo. You're still paying $1200/mo. Plus the cost of maintenance and electricity.

Talk about manipulating numbers.

<comment><USER6> How is the fuel for an electric car free?

I mean is electricity free in the US?

<comment><USER7> > I mean is electricity free in the US?

No, but it's a lot cheaper than gasoline.

The average cost of a kilowatt-hour is something like $0.11-$0.12 in the US (some places are much higher, some are lower).

The highest-capacity model with an estimated 300-mile range holds 85kWh. Tesla claims >90% charging efficiency, but let's just say 95kWh to charge.

95kwh * $0.12 = ~$11.40 per 300 miles.

Right now, a gallon of regular gasoline in the US averages $3.601.

300 / 50mpg = 6 * 3.6 = $21.60

300 / 40mpg = 7.5 * 3.6 = $27.00

300 / 30mpg = 10 * 3.6 = $36.00

300 / 20mpg = 15 * 3.6 = $54.00

300 / 10mpg = 30 * 3.6 = $108.00

As a point of troubling comparison, the Model S gets compared to a BMW M5 a lot, which apparently has a 16mpg/24mpg city/highway rating.

Another useful comparison is to a basic Prius, which has a 51/48 rating, but is substantially smaller, lighter, and less performant than the Model S and M5, but the Model S still beats it by a large margin.

When Tesla gets around to a Prius-like EV, the numbers are going to be even more ridiculous. The "fuel cost" of commuter EVs will simply be noise in the typical family budget.

<comment><USER8> >When Tesla gets around to a Prius-like EV, the numbers are going to be even more ridiculous. The "fuel cost" of commuter EVs will simply be noise in the typical family budget.

Or some of the European diesels, some of which are pushing 100 MPG.

<comment><USER9> >Or some of the European diesels, some of which are pushing 100 MPG.

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, you are thinking of vehicles that were tested on a different driving cycle with a larger gallon (imperial vs US). If compared on an EPA cycle with US gallons, those cars get closer to 50 mpg.

<comment><USER7> > _If compared on an EPA cycle with US gallons, those cars get closer to 50 > mpg._

It's worse than that. Diesel fuel has a higher energy density than gasoline, and is more expensive. Anyone trying to directly compare the two in terms of miles per gallon and cost without the appropriate adjustments is simply speaking nonsense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I even own a Tesla S and think the advertising of this program is terrible. I can't side with Elon on this. They definitely need to add some kind of qualifier like "$500 / month with savings." or "TCO equivalent to a $500 / month lease on a normal car."

15k/year assumption in the fuel savings calculator vs the 12k/year buyback program rate is hopefully an oversite rather than on purpose...

<comment><USER11> As an owner what do you think of the car? Do you regret being an early adopter and would you recommend waiting?

I'm gambling that they're eventually going to release one within my price range in the next five years. This financing program would make getting into a Tesla doable but I am not a big fan of leasing.

<comment><USER10> I love it. Doesn't feel like a 1.0 to me. The guaranteed buyback of this lease is a good deal I think. That said, they will release less expensive models within your time frame.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Went to a Tesla "dealership" today, this article is entirely true. I was horribly disappointed that I couldn't actually afford the car.

</comment><comment><USER13> When someone who truly revolutionized online money with PayPal says they have a revolutionary new deal, they had better not come at me with smoke and mirrors like this. When Elon Musk sat in front of a camera and talked about a revolutionary new financing opportunity where I could get an $80k car for $500 a month I was stoked. I was a lot less stoked when I found out that the "$500 a month" payment was actually as large as my mortgage payment. I've always been enthusiastic about what Elon Musk has done _, but this irks me. It's pretty shady when you subtract the value of the Model S at three years in your calculations, but you don't subtract the resale value of any other cars in the comparison. Just because other cars don't have "guaranteed" resale values doesn't mean they have zero resale value.

_ including PayPal, although they seem to have lost their direction since he left.

</comment><comment><USER14> While the $500/month and milage figures can be misleading, they failed to acknowledge the upside:

\- the savings from fuel/maintenance/etc are very real, not wishful thinking. The math is true for total cost of ownership

\- no downpayment due to the tax refunds

\- guaranteed buyback, not something you'll find anywhere else

In the absolute worst case it's a standard lease + buyback guarantee, so how can it be "expensive"?

<comment><USER15> No fuel costs? What about the eventual battery pack replacement? That's not cheap.

Similarly the buyback is only for a very short window of ownership. It'll be interesting to see how they remind owners of this window - will it be months in advance, or will it be "Hello, as of today..."?

<comment><USER16> Some cost information about Prius battery packs (not a Tesla, but relevant) [http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/20121120/NEWS/121129994/...](http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/20121120/NEWS/121129994/replacing- hybrids-battery-not-as-costly-as-you-think)

<comment><USER15> The Tesla batteries are more expensive - at around $10k a pop, it's not so trivial [http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/30/tesla-adds- replacement-...](http://green.autoblog.com/2012/11/30/tesla-adds-replacement- battery-pack-costs-to-price-increase-deta/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Here's something I can't figure out. I saw a list price of the Model S 60Kw as $62,400. The article says you pay $1,097 for 63 months for that model, and you can sell it back at 43% of the original price. Okay, at 36 months, you've paid $39,492 in payments. Assuming Tesla buys back at 43% of the $62,400 price, or $26,832 and you get that money, then all you are out at the end of 36 months is $12,660 or an effective $351/month (but only realized after three years).

Am I missing something here? Is my math off?

<comment><USER18> After making $39,492 in payments, you still owe $22,908 on the car (well, not exactly, because I'm not accounting for the down payment or for interest on the loan, here—but you don't own the car free and clear). So that $26,832 doesn't all go straight into your pocket if you sell the car back.

That's why, in order to get to the $346 figure I'm seeing on loading up the page with the default options for the 60kWh model, most of the "savings" comes from stuff other than the buyback (primarily the business tax benefit and fuel costs). The guaranteed resale value portion is only credited a $40/month benefit.

<comment><USER17> Oh, that's right---I'm not the full owner and most (if not all) of the money goes to the bank. Lovely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm a huge fan of the Model S and will be putting in an order for one as soon as I can decide which version to get. But I too think their whole financing announcement was really lame. Seems very beneath them for having such an amazing product to offer.

<comment><USER20> >as soon as I can decide which version to get

Is there a question though?

Max battery + all options including wheels and leather, except "pain armor" and probably "rear facing child seats".

Roof is tricky, don't know it it's a good idea or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Not to dismiss this but have you EVER seen an honest financial product or advertisement for such?

I mean to get that result you'd have to throw bankers and marketeers in jail for bad behavior and that's never going to happen, so what exactly is their downside?

<comment><USER22> TIn several European countries that I've lived in, you would not be allowed to make claims of this kind in your advertising - it's regarded as abusive of the consumer. The first amendment gives advertisers wide latitude with the kind of claims they make, and even fairly blatant exaggeration is OK as sales talk is expected to involve a degree of 'puffery'. I like the first amendment but as a consumer I sometimes find the almost universal use of bait-and-swtich tactics in American advertising extremely tedious.

In this case I think Tesla went too far with their claims and the market (both on Main and Wall street) is punishing them accordingly. The buyback guarantee was a good idea, as is the lease scheme. Of course they want to make the price seem attractive, but I think they could have been frank about a $1000/month lease cost and got the same amount of business or even more. A surprising misstep.

<comment><USER23> I presume you didn't live in the UK?

We seem to have a particularly slippery financial services sector (with some notable exceptions) - the latest one being interest rate swaps being sold to relatively small and unsophisticated borrowers as "interest rate protection".

<comment><USER22> Not any more, but then financial products have always been regulated rather loosely, given the FSA's vague guidelines. That _does_ sound pretty strange, but I was thinking more of regular consumer goods.

I do frequently miss the media landscape in the UK _grabs lapels_ you don't know what the TV here is _like!!_

<comment><USER24> _> grabs lapels you don't know what the TV here is like!!_

Let me know if I should send you that karma for TVTorrents.com. They're based in the UK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The other missing factor here is who is paying the sales tax on this $80,000 car. That's $6000 at a 7.5% rate, due on "purchase".

<comment><USER26> Depends on the state. Some states cap the sales tax on an auto purchase. IIRC, in SC it's capped at $350. Then of course you get the property tax bill about a month later assuming you didn't transfer tags.

<comment><USER25> True. I think people just need to be wary that no matter how Tesla works the numbers, you are still buying an $80k vehicle at the end of the day.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> > The sad part of this price comparison quagmire is that Tesla doesn't need to > do it. Its Model S is, flatly stated, very cool.

Totally agreed. I'm really disappointing that this BS is coming from what (up to this point) many of us have perceived as a trustworthy company. We all know Teslas are expensive but that they'll get more affordable with future models. There's no reason to pull this kind of stunt. Elon, you're better than this.

<comment><USER28> But it should also be noted that they don't advertise it as the price of a Tesla but the cost, or "the true cost of owning a Tesla". Cost and price are 2 different things. My problem though is that I don't think that they got the math right.

It's like saying: you spend 3000$ every month. A trip to Las Vegas would cost you an additional 1000$. But if you don't go to Las Vegas you are saving 1000$ and now your "true" spending is only 2000$ this month.

What they should have said is: non EV - car X has a monthly price of 1200$ and Tesla Model S also has a monthly price 1200$. For car X you have some additional monthly costs of 1000$ but for the Tesla, the additional costs are only 300$. So the total cost for you would be 2200$ for having car X and only 1500$ for Tesla. Or something like that.

<comment><USER29> > Cost and price are 2 different things

this may be true but _contextually_ it is not acceptable. If a salesman emails me that the cost of their car is $500 (mind you, without asterisk or even something like 'terms and conditions apply/see (blank) for details) all am thinking about is the price of their car.

but if you start asking questions like how much is my time worth, because it counts towards the _true cost of ownership_ it starts getting ridiculous.

and which time are you referring to? the trip to the corporate meeting or the trip to my son's baseball game? seriously

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Huge fan of Tesla....but this advertising is misleading and very disappointing.

Come on Musk, you set the high bar for yourself. We expect better.

</comment><comment><USER31> I wonder if anyone at Tesla considered the idea of guaranteeing the gas savings? At it's simplest the buyer just gets some money back if the cost of gas goes way down.

Tesla could use futures to fund the guarantee at possibly a low cost?

</comment><comment><USER32> The also valued an hour of stuck in traffic at $100. Imagine if we didn't sleep that much, or we ate while working, several hundred $ more a day. Because that's just how it works :)

The biggest opportunity to screw you is this [http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/04/Tesl...](http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp- content/uploads/2013/04/TeslaMileageTerms-626x381.jpg)

"Excessive wear and use" gives them a license to renege on their promise to buy your car for 43% of the value after 3 years. Considering the truth stretching Tesla did with this advertisement, I'd trust them to take advantage of any miniscule opp to screw you.

</comment><comment><USER33> Fisker is toast, what's the over-under on HN's favorite electric car boondoggle getting pinched? What greenism acolytes don't appreciate is that deflation lowers the price of goods and services--including car and fuel prices!

Value is conserved and deflation will burn the green industry in a bright white light like ice cold water on lithium. Green energy's only hope is that Bernanke's replacement starts handing out trillion dollar tokens on street corners.

All these bright minds and no one takes the time to model assumptions of perpetual compounding growth of the economy! It's not linear, duh!

<comment><USER24> _> All these bright minds and no one takes the time to model assumptions of perpetual compounding growth of the economy! It's not linear, duh!_

Planetary Resources. Colonization of Mars.

<comment><USER33> Pass the pipe, yo! Who would want to live on Mars? Why not build a colony in the middle of a desert with no one but moneyed acquaintances and imported indentured slaves?

Oh wait, we already did over in Dubai! Bwahaha

Mars colonization is just a novelty to obscure reality and distract people from the bankruptcy of the debt-asset based financial-political system. Aka asset-based lending

The Tesla financing gimmick is nothing more than a retail level tax credit securitization scheme of the TIF pedigree that municipalities use.

<comment><USER24> > Who would want to live on Mars?

The number one historical driver of wealth and geopolitical power: proximity to resources. On Mars, you're several times closer than Earth to the majority of the resources in the Solar System, on a planet that has terrestrial mineral resources and the ability to support agriculture. Also, not being at the bottom of such a deep gravity well, you're also at a strategic advantage.

<comment><USER33> Mars colonization is a PR boondoggle and there is no resource constraint on earth. Flying indentured servants and aristocrats to Mars to live in a manufactured community, in a manufactured environment to be closer to far-away minerals, sir, is idiotic when considered for what it is.

There is absolutely nothing scalable or sustainable about it. When people can build a sustainable community in our own deserts maybe we can talk about a sustainable desert community millions of miles away from our homeland.

Next!

<comment><USER24> _> there is no resource constraint on earth_

Again, you reveal your ignorance. _Constraint_ isn't required for geopolitical advantage.

 _> closer to far-away minerals_

And you are revealing an ignorance of orbital mechanics and their implications. The shift of geopolitical power away from Europe wasn't because resource constraints were starving certain powers. It was because even more favorable conditions elsewhere manifested even larger economic potentials.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> the media seems intent on sinking Tesla. While I agree with the conclusion that they should stick to car instead of loan technology, the tagline under the 500$ seems enough to me to indicate it is a cost of ownership figure. These practices are certainly not more deceptive than what is seen elsewhere in the auto industry

<comment><USER35> This is silly and borders on conspiracy theory. It would be suspicious if Tesla is being attacked over technicalities or falsehoods, but all of the criticism in this article is true, representative, and on the money.

It's not just Car & Driver, there have been recently discussions on HN also where it's been shown many times over that the $500 figure is straight out to lunch and grossly misleading.

Why is it that some of us here feel the need to constantly worship at the feet of demigod Musk, He Who Does No Wrong, and anything negative said about him is dismissed as slanderous propaganda by Big Automobile? What is this, the USSR?

I appreciate what Elon Musk is doing to advance electric cars and wean us off of oil, but he is a shrewd businessman subject to the fallibilities of all shrewd businessmen. He is neither a messiah nor a saint.

<comment><USER36> "he is a shrewd businessman subject to the fallibilities of all shrewd businessmen."

Rather a broad generalization, don't you think? Like most fields, business turns out to have more variation than outsiders think. "Businessmen" range from pure money grubbers who will do whatever makes the most, to people who are in business simply because the thing they want to build can only be embodied as a business. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that Elon Musk is toward the latter end of the spectrum.

<comment><USER37> > _"the thing they want to build can only be embodied as a business."_

I agree completely. It's easy to see how improving the state of electric vehicles requires significant capital, so without a business, there's no viable way to make the desired advancements.

Some of the backlash against Elon Musk seems to be caused by some people having extremely high expectations for everything he does. Those expectations are occasionally unrealistic, and blaming him personally for every misgiving of the entire Tesla company is entirely unfair.

Most car sales/lease terms are horribly and intentionally confusing and complicated, but someone in marketing at Tesla made a serious mistake. The mistake wasn't using industry norm of difficult to comprehend claims and terms, instead, the mistake was failing to live up to expectations of something better, namely, clear and direct terms with fair and easy comparisons.

As a business, Tesla must compete with all of the entrenched businesses but by using the "best practices" of the industry in terms of marketing, they missed an opportunity and failed to meet expectations. There are few people on the planet who have set expectations so high as to get blamed personally for failing to innovate absolutely everywhere, but it seems Elon Musk is one of them.

The world would be a better place if more people had his problems. ;-)

<comment><USER38> I'm a big Elon fan and want him to succeed. I think people like me are disappointed because we expected better from him and the companies he runs.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What are your favorite board games? - <AUTHOR> Hackers tend to have great taste in board games, especially ones involving complex strategy. So, what games do you like to play? <comment><USER3> I can't believe that I'm the first to mention One Night Ultimate Werewolf, which has been the consensus favorite amongst my friends for a while now.

It has relatively simple rules but very solid strategy (rewards logic and duplicity). The games are short, so you never feel "stuck" on a long game and when you're a beginner, you can rapidly absorb new lessons and strategies and apply them to the next round. The replay value is tremendous.

I have observed/heard about the game not "clicking" for some players the first few times. You _can_ reason out substantial amounts of information by sharing claims and thinking hard about what you personally know, and you _can_ tactically disrupt other people. I think if you have a crowd of new people, it helps to have an experienced player sit out one round and emcee, encouraging certain lines of thought and discouraging others. One of my friends said he only really "got" it after the third round, when he saw me spin a story from start to finish so that I could pin a wolf on someone when I in fact was a wolf.

I also love Dominion, which others have mentioned. (That's my personal favorite; Werewolf is my friend group-favorite.) It is in a very different genre, but it also has fast-cycling games, deep strategy vs. simple rules, and huge replay value, which are three aspects of board games that I really value.

<comment><USER4> Is it better than regular werewolf?

We play this all the time, but it's a bit ugly for people who get out on the first night.

I talk trash most of the time so some people just kill me on the first round because they want their peace :D

<comment><USER3> I've never played regular Werewolf, unless you are referring to what I know of as the informal party game Mafia (several nights, one killer, several townspeople, maybe one or two additional roles who get special abilities).

In that case, yes much better:

\- Everyone is involved start to finish, and a free phone app serves as the emcee.

\- People receive cards with (usually) unique roles that furnish them some special information in their own way. I think some Mafia variants have minor special roles, but the makers of ONUW really did a good job thinking of creative ones.

\- Many roles involve moving cards around at night, so when you wake up you usually don't know for sure whether you're still the role you thought you were, or whether a card you saw at night is still where it was when you saw it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hard to go wrong with Baduk/Go. Doesn't really scale to groups though.

Terra Mystica[0] and Tzolk'in[1] are both low randomness worker placement game that require long term planning and fun mechanics.

If war-games are more your speed, Diplomacy[2] and Twilight Imperium 3rd Ed[3] are some of the best in class. Both take all day (or more if you play Diplomacy by mail). I personally like Exocus: Proxima Centauri[4] a lot in this genre.

[0] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/120677/terra- mystica](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/120677/terra-mystica)

[1] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/126163/tzolk-mayan- calen...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/126163/tzolk-mayan-calendar)

[2] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/483/diplomacy](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/483/diplomacy)

[3] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12493/twilight- imperium-...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/12493/twilight-imperium- third-edition)

[4] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/122842/exodus-proxima- ce...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/122842/exodus-proxima-centauri)

<comment><USER6> Baduk/Go doesn't scale well in groups but it also can impart a lot of important life lessons as you learn it.

          The enemy's key point is yours
          Beware of going back to patch up
          Don't chase what you can't kill
          Check escape routes first
          Big dragons never die
          Give your opponent what they want
          Don't follow proverbs blindly

[http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoProverbs](http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoProverbs)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> \- Codenames is a great party game. Easy to teach and works really well in larger groups. It is a word association game. One person gives a hint and the their team tries to guess all the right words on the board without hitting any of the other teams word, or the bomb that causes your team to instantly lose.

\- Splendor another easy to teach game. 2-4 players its quick to play, around 20 minutes a game.

\- Roll for the Galaxy. A much more complicated game although probably medium in complexity as far as the board game spectrum goes. You get to roll lots of dice.

\- Dead of Winter. A story based secret information game. Everyone has a secret goal, and someone _might_ be a traitor trying to sabotage the colony. Despite this you have to work as a team to try and survive the zombie apocalypse.

</comment><comment><USER8> Hanabi: multi-player co-op, and you can see everyone's cards but your own. All about reasoning and inference.

Betrayal at House on the Hill: cooperative until it isn't, with a traitor arising halfway through the game. Many novel "haunt" scenarios for replay value.

Coup: Bluffing game, where you have a couple of hidden "role" cards, each role card has some abilities, but you can use the abilities of any role as a bluff, if another player doesn't call you on it.

Netrunner (note, _not_ the new remake, the old out-of-print version): CCG with asymmetric sides, the "runner" trying to break in and the "corporation" trying to defend and advance their agenda.

Ascension: deckbuilding game with a large variety of cards. There are only 1-3 of any given card in the deck; every game tends to turn out differently, and any strategy has to adapt to the available cards.

Dixit: Interesting exercise in description, because you have to hint at the image on your card without being spot-on, so that _some_ but not _all_ players get it. Helps to know the other players.

And if you don't already watch Tabletop, I recommend it: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4F80C7D2DC8D9B6C](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4F80C7D2DC8D9B6C) . (Note: that playlist is sorted in reverse order, for some reason; start at the bottom.)

That's in addition to various tabletop RPGs, which I find even more fun when we can get a group together for them.

<comment><USER3> I'll second Hanabi. In addition to being inherently very fun, collaborative games are a great way to bring in people who aren't as into board games and are worried about getting stomped on by experienced players.

An interesting and much more challenging variation for experienced Hanabi players is to disallow people from saying a number or color. You point to a set of cards in another player's hand and that's it. Those cards share some attribute, and all the other cards in the hand don't have that attribute, whatever it is.

<comment><USER8> > An interesting and much more challenging variation for experienced Hanabi > players is to disallow people from saying a number or color. You point to a > set of cards in another player's hand and that's it. Those cards share some > attribute, and all the other cards in the hand don't have that attribute, > whatever it is.

Interesting! That breaks so many common reasoning rules, especially if you're playing multicolor. I can see how that would add a huge amount of challenge.

I'd be interested to see some of the reasoning based on that variant.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Simpler than many I expect to see listed here, but I'm a pretty big fan of Dominion. If the cards are always picked randomly, each play of the game is very different.

<comment><USER8> I used to enjoy Dominion, but it can become very mechanical. For any given set of 10 cards, you usually want to ignore all but a few of them.

<comment><USER10> For a while each successive expansion was getting more and more powerful action cards to address this issue. Not sure if they followed that trend past Prosperity though.

<comment><USER8> That doesn't solve the problem. For any given set of 10 cards, there's an optimal strategy, and it typically involves relatively few of the cards. And some cards are effectively _never_ worth touching in any game.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I really enjoy Agricola[0], because there are no elements of chance in the game, only strategy. It's also a little more approachable to people averse to conflict-focused games, because the only victory condition is "everybody has taken all their turns"

[0] [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/31260/agricola](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/31260/agricola)

<comment><USER12> If you like Agricola, I recommend Caverna. Sort of a spiritual sequel to the game, and done better in my opinion, which is saying a lot because Agricola was one of my favorites.

<comment><USER13> I find Caverna lacks in replayability. My group played it a couple times and everyone started doing the same thing. Eventually we just migrated back to Agricola. Haven't touched Caverna in over a year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> My family plays a lot of board games. Most recently we've been playing:

\- Concordia [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/124361/concordia](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/124361/concordia)

\- Istanbul [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/148949/istanbul](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/148949/istanbul)

\- Lanterns [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/160851/lanterns- harvest-...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/160851/lanterns-harvest- festival)

\- Codenames [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/178900/codenames](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/178900/codenames) (this last one is more of a lighthearted party game, but still great fun)

</comment><comment><USER14> \- Settlers of Catan: Cities and Knights \- Caracassonne \- Blokus \- Chess \- Risk (Luxor, complex maps) \- Aquire

<comment><AUTHOR> Curious why you specify the Cities and Knights expansion?

<comment><USER15> For me, it adds a good source of tension (barbarians) and competition (knights, defending or not), without being direct PvP combat. It also adds a variety of different special actions through progress cards (which replace development cards). Perhaps it adds a bit more randomness but it's fun to be able to drop a "power move" with a well-timed play of cards.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> My wife and I have 2 elementary school aged children, and we like playing Pandemic[0].

[0]: [https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic)

</comment><comment><USER17> After hearing about Rithmomachy/Rithmomachia on HN six months ago [1,2], I recently laser-cut a board and set to try it out with. It sounds rather tedious from the description, but actually was pretty enjoyable. A nice feature is that the difficulty is very scalable--once you find a set of rules ([3] is one source), you can decide how many of them to actually follow before starting the game.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11003320](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11003320)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rithmomachy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rithmomachy)

[3] [http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Rithmomachia.html](http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Rithmomachia.html)

<comment><USER13> Agricola

Twilight Imperium

Through the Ages

Terra Mystica

Suburbia

7 Wonders

Lords of Waterdeep

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I prefer simple games at the moment, so Carcassone, Bohnanza, and Lost Cities are currently my favourite.

But I've also enjoyed playing Puerto Rico, Dominion, Race to the Galaxy, among others.

Ticket to Ride is great with my family, because of the player interaction.

</comment><comment><USER19> El Grande is an older, but great game.

The re-release of Elfenland just came out "Elfenroads" is a great buy. [http://riograndegames.com/Game/1295-Elfenroads](http://riograndegames.com/Game/1295-Elfenroads)

There are others, but I'll let others pick their favorites. P.S Not a strategy game, but Concept has hit the table a lot for us with lots of different types if people.

</comment><comment><USER20> My all time favourite is heroquest. I played that game (and it's counterpart, space crusade) to death in my youth, and then some more. Recently I've started making my own games for kicks, roughly based off the ruleset but with different themes. I made a zombie survival game and a space pirate adventure thing. Making board games is now my New favourite game

</comment><comment><USER21> By category:

1) Heavy Strategy: Eclipse and Terra Mystica (tie)

2) Strategy Cardgame: Race for the Galaxy & expansions

3) Abstract: Arimaa. Runner up: tie between Go and Hive.

4) Real-Time Co-op: Damage Report. Runner up: Space Alert

5) Co-Op: Mysterium

6) Wargame: War of the Ring. Runner up: Twilight Struggle

7) CCG or LCG: Lord of the Rings LCG

8) Party Game: Time's Up Title Recall Runner up: Concept

9) Reaction time: Jungle Speed.

10) Most _disliked_ game: Catan or any spinoff thereof

<comment><USER21> Forgot one:

11) Social Deduction: Two Rooms and a Boom

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Backgammon.

It's a good metaphor for life. You have to weigh up probabilities and likely outcomes, know when to take a risk and when to play safe. Sometimes the other player plays better than you, sometimes worse, and sometimes the dice just come along and kick your arse.

</comment><comment><USER23> Strategy games which are simple to explain, but allow skilled players to compete without getting bored.

Go, Scrabble, chess... What modern games are like this?

Or, silly games where losing doesn't matter, it's fun anyway. My current favourites are Space Alert and Galaxy Trucker.

<comment><USER24> I commented it below too, but then I read your comment. I've found Hive is very enjoyable for a chess player (myself) since the strategy is different as the board is the pieces. If you want more level of skill, Terra Mystica was also very strategic balancing territory and resource control.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> At the top my list, even if it might not technically be a board game: Mah- Jong. The most complex part of the game tends to be the scoring, and agreeing on a set of rule variants your entire gaming group don't object to.

After that, Scrabble and Puerto Rico.

</comment><comment><USER26> Quelf is always a good time. [https://www.amazon.com/Spin-Master- Games-20053371-Quelf/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/Spin-Master- Games-20053371-Quelf/dp/B008N6KJMC)

<comment><USER20> +1 for Quelf, lots of fun with a group of people

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Escape from the Aliens in Outer Space [0] – you can get a print-and-play edition for a buck fifty!

[0] [http://www.escapefromthealiensinouterspace.com/](http://www.escapefromthealiensinouterspace.com/)

</comment><comment><USER28> Chess

<comment><USER24> And hive

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> My favorites: Power Grid, Terra Mystica, Dominion, Race for the Galaxy.

</comment><comment><USER30> 1\. Settlers of Catan (with expansions) 2\. Axis & Allies (standard edition) 3\. Chess 4\. Cranium 5\. Scrabble 6\. Monopoly (with modified rules that makes the game last about an hour)

<comment><USER31> A lot of people around here would do well just to _read_ the official rules carefully and _follow_ them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> All time favorite: Risk (especially Risk Legacy)

Others: Settlers of Catan, Ticket to ride, Dominion, Kingdom Builder, Civilization

</comment><comment><USER33> I really enjoy Resistance, but you have to have the right group of people for it.

</comment><comment> nappy-doo Top games:

1) Cosmic Encounter. Plays 3-8 (best with 4-6), about 90 minutes. It's a negotiation game where each person has an asymmetric way they alone can break the rules. Cosmic is a strange game where the entire game takes place off the table, but you use the table to keep track of what's happening in the game. The first one or two times you play, you probably won't understand how deep and subtle the game is, but stick with it. ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/39463/cosmic- encounter](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/39463/cosmic-encounter))

2) Memoir '44\. 2 Player, as written plays in about 30 minutes, but typically we switch sides between rounds, so 60 minutes. Light WWII war game. Lots of expansions (Russians, Japanese, British armies), and lots of ways to play (expansions allow up to 8 players). This game is just so much fun if you dig the WWII theme. ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10630/memoir-44](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10630/memoir-44))

3) Kemet. 3-5 players, about 90-120 minutes (depending on player count). "Dudes on a map" war game with excellent fighting mechanics. Very well balanced, with every player being able to attack all other players. Fun little monsters you can buy in the game. ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/127023/kemet](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/127023/kemet))

4) Railways of the World. 2-6 players (depending on the map), 60-120 minutes (depending on the map). Nice railway game. Simple rules (about 10 minutes to explain), but just a great game. ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17133/railways- world](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17133/railways-world))

5) Star Wars Rebellion. 2 players, 90 minutes to 270. Thematic Star Wars game. Imperial player tries to find the rebel base, while the rebels just need to last long enough to have their cause take hold in the galaxy. Incredibly well balanced, despite the asymmetry between the players. ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars- rebelli...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/187645/star-wars-rebellion))

6) Party games: Love Letter, Codenames, Wits & Wagers, Can't Stop. All are great games. One game, For Sale, deserves special mention because it explains so fast, but has such depth.

7) Eclipse. 2-9 players (best with 3-5), takes about 45-60 min/player. 4X game where you explore the galaxy and try to accumulate the most points through science, research, economy, battles, negotiations, and exploration. You should buy the Rise of the Ancients expansion to fix a subtly broken part of the game dealing with missiles.

That's just off the top of my head. Last night I played Patchwork and Quadropolis. Patchwork might be a great game -- too early to tell, and Quadropolis is fun, and likely worth the money, but I don't think has the staying power of some others.

</comment><comment><USER34> Backgammon

</comment><comment><USER35> Splendor

</comment><comment><USER36> Zertz and Tzaar from GIPF project.

</comment><comment><USER37> absolutely settlers of catan

</comment><comment> Al-Khwarizmi In my group of friends we have more than 50 games, most of them involving complex strategy (as we do like that). Here is a list of my personal top 10:

1) Shogun. Archetypical Risk-like game of moving soldiers and conquering provinces, but with a unique twist that makes it outstanding in my view: instead of dice, it uses a cube tower to generate randomness. The outcome of fights is based in the number of cubes from each player that come out of the tower. If you get bad luck in a battle (because your cubes stay inside) then the tower will be loaded in your favor for the next battles (those hidden cubes can come out at any moment). I love this because, although I think some randomness is good in strategic battle games to spice things up and so that the game doesn't turn a chess-like prediction game, I don't like the winner being dependent on luck. The tower introduces randomness, but guarantees that no one will be too lucky or unlucky, which is great. Combine with a setting in feudal Japan, complete with rice farming and starving populace revolving against you, and you get an amazing game.

2) Imperial 2030. Another typical Risk-like game of moving soldiers and taking countries... except that it's not. You don't control the empires themselves, instead you are a banker that buys each empire's bonds. At a given point in the game, the banker that holds more bonds for a particular empire is the one controlling its politics. So maybe right now I control China, but I know that you have a lot of cash and are looking at Chinese bonds with greedy eyes, so I send the Chinese army on an unnecessarily painful military campaign to wither down its power in case you are going to control it in the next turn. This makes for awesome mechanics in a really strategic game. By the way, it doesn't have any random elements at all, so it's a good game if you are against that.

3) Galaxy Trucker. This game is great due to its sheer concept... first you use pieces from a scrapyard (competing for the pieces with the other players) to build a spaceship with its cannons, shields, cargo holds, etc. and then all of you have to fly them in a journey littered with space pirates, meteorites than can tear off pieces of your ship, merchant planets, smugglers and more. The feeling when one of your rival ships is tore in two by a meteorite is unbeatable.

4) Star Wars: Imperial Assault. When a friend of mine got this game, I thought "they have the Star Wars franchise so it will probably be a crappy game - <USER2> will sell anyway". But no. It's actually a very good tactics game with lots of choices, characters with very different styles, special abilities, and a set of rules that (albeit unspecified at times) go very well together.

5) Robo Rally. A classic from Richard Garfield, the guy that brought you MtG. OK, maybe this doesn't fit that much into "complex strategy", but it's also a game that hackers should like because it's about programming after all! You have to program your robot with randomly-dealt cards to try and survive pits, traps and the other robots' lasers. A huge strong point of this game is that the maps and missions are hugely customizable, supporting different sets of rules like races, capture the flag, deathmatch, and others that you can come up with. It supports up to 8 players, you can build different maps putting together map boards, and there are editors online to print your own map boards, so it's the ultimate customizable game. I think it's out of print but a new edition has been announced, although it only supports 6 players sadly.

6) Carcassone. One of the best known modern board games, together with Catan. But while Catan is IMHO too shallow and too random, featuring few meaningful decisions, in Carcassone every tile you place is a meaningful decision. The experience is very different in 2-player games (much more offensive) than in games with more players. Some expansions (the builder, the granary and pig, the mayor, the resources, etc.) really enhance the game although others are prescindible.

7) Discworld Ankh Morpork. A deception game: you have to work towards your goal and the other characters don't know what it is. You don't have to know Discworld to like it (one of my friends hasn't read any of the books and loves it). Drawback: unbalanced, it's easier to win with some characters than others. If you care much about that, it's probably not your game.

8) Goblins Inc. Similar mechanic to Galaxy Trucker (probably inspired on it), but with goblins that build robots of doom instead of spaceships, and with direct combat. Contrary to Galaxy Trucker, it's team-based (2v2) but it also gives you the possibility of being a traitor to your partner. Less flexible than Galaxy Trucker (this one only really works with 4 players) but loads of fun!

9) Power Grid. A classic game where you have to build a power network. Lots of strategy and decisions, although the beginning depends too much on player location and the endgame turns a bit too much into an arithmetic-fest counting to the last nickel IMO.

10) Escape from the Aliens in Outer Space. A quite original board game in that it doesn't have a board, the board is in each players' head. Some players are humans and others are aliens, but they can't see where each other is, except with certain clues (people making noise) and items. The humans must escape the aliens. It's a lot of fun and it involves both abstract thought and psychology/bluffing/etc. The drawback is that some maps and situations can be unbalanced, especially if you play with the stock rules (a door to exit the ship can randomly work or not) a player can lose very unfairly. It should be pretty easy to customize the rules though.

Also go is awesome, but I don't think it's the kind of game you were looking for advice about (and it's difficult to compare to the others as it's on an entirely different category).

</comment><comment><USER38> Pandemy is awesome.

<comment> nappy-doo I think you mean Pandemic ([https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30549/pandemic)).

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Agricola

Twilight Imperium

Through the Ages

Terra Mystica

Suburbia

7 Wonders

Lords of Waterdeep</comment>


WhatsApp data isn't encrypted - <AUTHOR> My friend in Indonesia couldn't open WA yesterday. A modal kept appearing when she opened the app telling her she had to back up her data with Google and store it unencrypted in their cloud. There was no way for her to dismiss this modal and no other backup options presented. If she chooses to backup with Google does Google now have the right to view her private conversations? What is the risk Google falls out of favor, security lapses and her data becomes available on the Darknet? <comment><USER2> I don't know about that particular issue, but we already know WhatsApp can now replace end-to-end encryption with their own encryption key, so they can decrypt convos at will.

Many on HN defended this move as a "not a big deal" and not a "real backdoor". But they'll regret it soon, when they'll learn Facebook very much intended it to be an insidious backdoor:

[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp-...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/13/whatsapp- design-feature-encrypted-messages)

We also know that both of its founders left because they had a conflict with the Facebook leadership about crippling end-to-end encryption. So if Facebook hasn't gotten rid of end-to-end encryption yet, it will very soon. You should be moving to Signal, Riot, or maybe even Wire ASAP.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/whatsapp- fou...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/whatsapp-founder- plans-to-leave-after-broad-clashes-with-parent- facebook/2018/04/30/49448dd2-4ca9-11e8-84a0-458a1aa9ac0a_story.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> WhatApp is owned by Facebook. Google the main competitor of Facebook. So a new strong mandatory integration of WhatsApp with the Google cloud is very very strange. Do you have an screenshot? May it be phishing attack?

[Anyway, I'm pessimistic and I always assume that all "private" online conversation will be leaked sooner or later, just assume that they are "delayed-public".]

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, didn't get a screenshot of it. But it's talked about on the Telegram blog as one of the privacy pitfalls of WA. Just hadn't actually seen it until recently and it freaked me out a little there was no other way for my friend to continue using the app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> as time goes on the probability increases towards 1

<comment><AUTHOR> You're confirming my bias and I like it.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: I'm looking for a KickAss VOIP provider. - <AUTHOR>

I'm looking for a KickAss VOIP provider. My present service provider has horrible customer service and I'd like to move my business number to a great company. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. <comment><USER2> I've been using <http://www.inphonex.com/> for a couple of years, for personal use, and also at work with an asterisk pbx. They are not the cheapest but I have yet to have a problem, and their support (which I have only used for configuration issues) is great.

</comment><comment><USER3> <http://www.sonictalk.net/> I just signed up, loved their DSL service.</comment>