Sortfolio: Going once, going twice... - <AUTHOR> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3172-sortfolio-going-once-going-twice

<comment><USER2> We contacted 37signals when they originally announced their intention to sell Sortfolio. Having bought and sold sites before we asked for some pretty standard information about traffic, revenue, etc. These questions weren't answered and we did not pursue the matter further.

I'm not surprised the site wasn't sold; the "business" of buying and selling sites isn't exactly very "37signal"-y.

With a price now available it's much more transparent for everyone involved; I hope though that this time they are able to accommodate due diligence.

<comment><USER3> I provided traffic/revenue figures to anyone who asked. If you're a serious buyer, and you have other questions, please contact me directly at jason@37signals...

<comment><USER4> Do you have (and are willing to share) the credit card information on file for each customer? Or is the new Sortfolio owner expected to contact or otherwise prompt existing customers to re-enter their payment information?

<comment><USER5> I don't see how this could be done if they are PCI compliant.

<comment><USER6> there are several ways to reach compliance; not having the information is just the easiest

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'd be worried about the requirement to switch billing. I'm not sure there's a clean way to switch a customer from one billing system to another without requiring user intervention.

In general, recurring billing is a scam by its opt-out nature. If you aren't on top of your accounting, tiny charges slip by. When you spot them, you may be too lazy to immediately cancel it, so you forget.

It isn't enough to know how many users are billed, but how many users are active on the service and willing to jump through the hoops when they have to update their account.

Also, beyond the server requirements, consider the cost of a support infrastructure. It costs much less for 37signals to support one more project in their portfolio than for a new company to spin up a support team from scratch.

<comment><USER8> > _We've put Sortfolio on the clock: We either sell it by July 1, or we close > it down._

I'm wondering, If you had $480,000, why not spend 10% of that to build an alternative, and release it on July 1. After all the customers are going to have to signup to a new payment system either way.

<comment><USER9> Because 37 Signals is more popular than you are.

<comment><USER10> So if 37 Signals is more popular than you, what value there in paying $480,000 for a site whose customers may not be interested in it after 37 Signals leaves?

<comment><USER11> The brand value because of the 37 signals past cachet. The same reason brand x can be owned by random hedge fund company and people will still buy it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> _You get the design, the branding, the code (it's a Rails app), the customers, and the steady cash flow._

You'll lose the branding, unless 37Signals decides that it'll keep linking and promoting it. Potential buyers and clients are coming from 37Signals; and that's why design firms are putting a high monthly fee on the product.

The design and code are by no measure worth $480K. The clients (and steady cash flow) will go with clients. Expect a cash flow crash by losing the branding, and also changing the payment system.

</comment><comment><USER13> 37signals is pricing this deal with the assumption that there will be a significant (>50%) departure of customers upon the deal closing, that cash flow growth thereafter will be meagre (<10%), and/or that the whole thing will collapse within a few (~3-5) years.

If we assume a $480 000 purchase price, annual cash flows of $212 277 (12 times the mean monthly, which is fairly normally distributed save for March 2012) growing at 2% a year, and abandonment after 7 years the investment yields over 10% (IRR) so long as cash flows crash less than 56% from purchase to year 1. In other words, if first year cash flows are at least $93 000 and grow 2% a year from there, the investment will generate a 10% yield after 7 years.

This analysis is stylised, but it remains that even if one takes a 1/4 drop in cash flow from purchase to year 1 and manages to lose 5% of cash flows each year thereafter, the investment will earn a 23% yield assuming abandonment after 7 years.

<comment><USER14> _the investment will generate a 10% yield after 7 years._

Except 7 years ago the most popular social network was called MySpace. The iPhone, Twitter and ycombinator did not exist (amongst other things). Rails 1.0 was released that year.

Why would a niche job board, detached from the brand name that was its only asset, prevail through 7 more years of internet time?

<comment><USER13> Fair point, 37signals may also expect the whole thing to organically fizzle out within a few years (updated).

Let's constrict the time frame to 3 years from purchase and continue the abandonment assumption. Assuming 2% annual cash flow growth we cannot sustain more than an 11% initial crash before yield falls below 10%. With -5% annual cash flow growth this number drops to 4%. The investment is probably not reasonably viable with a 3 year time-frame.

Note that a more nuanced analysis would ask for a more rigorously thought out required rate of return (in this latter case 10%).

<comment><USER3> I think a smart businessperson could blow it up much bigger. Open it up to a variety of different industries. Wedding planners, photographers, florists, interior designers, architects, etc. Think big.

<comment><USER14> Wedding planners, photographers, florists, interior designers and architects have no idea who 37signals is. Consequently they won't be fazed in the slightest by a simplistic job board with relatively poor usability entering their respective markets.

Furthermore, even if they _knew_ who 37signals was - that brand is removed from the product after the sale.

Alternatively, if you seriously believe the success of your job board is due to technical excellence and would map to other markets. Why would someone buy the tech for half a million dollars instead of replicating it within a few months for under 100k dollars? Using the very same tech staff that he will need anyway to operate it?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "We just want it to go to a good home". - Then a fixed priced is probably not the way to get there.

What's the ROI look like ? Lets say I absorb the development of the new billing system. How many clients will re submit there billing information ? If I leave it on auto pilot how long till I make my money back? 2.5 years ?

"With over 10,000 free accounts, there's tons of untapped opportunity here in the existing customer base" Likely part of the buzz around the initial launch.

Pros: The revenue is there. The hosting cost is going to be affordable (low traffic), Cons: billing switch (huge problem), unless there is value.

"We either sell it by July 1, or we close it down." - Close it down != a good home at all.

What's the operational overhead? support via emails? charge backs? bug fixes?

</comment><comment><USER16> I believe this was a concern raised the first time they were trying to sell it, but a big worry for anyone considering purchasing Softfolio is probably what would happen when 37s no longer owns it.

It's sort of like their job board (<http://jobs.37signals.com/>). People like the job board because of the types of developers it attracts. Both companies and prospective employees value each others' skills and styles. If 37s didn't own that job board and sold it, it suddenly becomes 'just another job board'. Is it the same deal with Sortfolio? Anyway good luck to the potential buyers of Sortfolio. Hopefully they won't have wasted $480,000.

<comment><USER17> I think it would be useful to know how much traffic / new signups come from other 37s sites vs SEO or links from other sites. That won't give you the exact answer of "how can it fall once it's no longer a 37s product", but it's a start.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I don't believe for a moment he will shut down $200,000 profit with little maintenance.

It's condescending to suggest "I want it to go to a nice home but I'll close it down if I don't get x." If you're willing to entertain such thought then you do not truly value the user.

<comment><USER3> Believe it.

Sortfolio isn't right for us anymore. Our attention is elsewhere. If we can sell it for a fair price (we consider $480,000 fair), then we'll sell it. If not, we'll close it down and move on. There's nothing condescending about that.

<comment><USER19> You're right. Disingenuous would have been a better choice.

<comment><USER3> I guess you'll have to wait and see.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> If it passively generates $200k /yr with no maintenance, what reason is there to sell?

<comment><USER21> If they aren't focused on it, it is a distraction and can potentially tarnish the brand. Plus, they aren't going to sell for nothing, so they get immediate capital they can invest in areas where they expect a higher rate of return.

<comment><USER14> In other words: decadence.

I'm assuming in their favor that they really believe $480k would be fair deal - which means they've simply lost touch with reality and can no longer discern how much of their revenue stems from the brand and how much from actual product value.

The rational move would be to hire an admin for $100k (remember we're in alternate reality), tell him to keep the site up, go about his life and not call. And collect the remaining $100k until the product fizzles out.

Btw, I'd volunteer to take that admin-role when your sale fails. $100k may not mean much to 37signals anymore. For me it would be a lot of money. I promise to not call you ever, you can just forget that site after you handed it over. I will guarantee 100% uptime (yes 100%, via anycast, at my expense, included with the 100k).

<comment><USER21> > In other words: decadence.

Lols. Yeah, that's it.

> The rational move would be to hire an admin for $100k (remember we're in > alternate reality), tell him to keep the site up, go about his life and not > call. And collect the remaining $100k until the product fizzles out.

That's what any prospective buyer could do, and they haven't exactly been coming out of the wood work. Heck, if it's so easy, you could do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I don't see what is actually of value in this deal for someone to merit a 480K purchase:

1\. Site code - Sure you are getting a head start since you don't need to build from scratch but the site doesn't do anything special that can't be duplicated.

2\. Brand Name - I think it's more about 37signals being behind this rather than Sortfolio being an awesome product. I don't know how many customers are going to actually use this when 37signals drops it.

3\. Customers - See point 2. Why do I need to be a customer of just another portfolio site?

4\. Design - Any good designer can reproduce this or create something completely new for you.

5\. Steady Cash Flow - I can't even believe they mentioned this as a selling point. Steady cash flow AFTER you integrate your own billing solution.

I would be very interested to see someone estimate out the cost of just cloning this/hosting/advertising. I feel like for less than the purchase price you may get more value and then you just advertise directly to their market.

<comment><USER23> Why do you think the buyer would need a new billing solution?

<comment><USER24> Because it mentions it directly in the link that this discussion is about.

"Since Sortfolio is hooked up to our centralized billing system, you'll need to write your own code to charge customers."

<comment><USER23> Oh, I see. I missed that. I suspect they wouldn't turn over the credit card information. Yes, that would be a big problem for the new buyer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I am a little shocked by the audacity of this post.

> We've put next to no effort into it over the last year…

You get points for honesty, sir, but this is akin to saying "Screw you, our dear 170 miserable paying customers. We have done nothing to make your money worth it, thanks for being suckers for our brand anyway. Oh, and I feel no shame admitting this publicly!"

How would you feel if you were (or are) one of the 170? Are they getting their money's worth?

<comment><USER26> That feels a little heavy handed and like you are projecting of your own values onto the situation to me. The 170 customers are paying right?

If the site works and is providing those 170 people what they want then what exactly is wrong with that? If its not providing them what they want why are they still paying $99 per month for it?

<comment><USER27> $99 is an easy line to overlook on even a small-business account, especially when it's going to a theoretically reputable company like 37s.

I bet that one single "update your billing information" email detailing what the $99 was for, followed by culling everyone who hadn't updated their information within 30 days would result in an 80%+ drop-off in the revenue of Sortfolio. Not even disclosure that the service was for sale and hadn't been updated in a year - simply a "hey, you're paying $99/mo for Sortfolio. Please click here to confirm you want to continue doing so."

37signals are running the same scam as AOL dial-up here - they're relying on people who have forgotten to hit an "unsubscribe" button rather than providing real value. Personally, I had a lot of respect for 37signals going into this blog post, but I think that's pretty darn slimy.

<comment><USER28> I fully appreciate that subscription plans go some way towards exploiting the laziness of people, but I think you're being a bit harsh:

1\. Ultimately, the buyer has every opportunity to cancel the service. I strongly doubt 37signals are going out of their way to make it difficult, as other companies have.

2\. If it does what it's meant to do, why would they need to continually update and improve the site?

3\. I agree that with a reminder, people may unsubscribe, but it's definitely also possible that people see $99/mo worth of value in their listing. The links are not nofollowed, so the backlink would be worth something. Also, getting a single decent project referral ($10-20k) each year could justify a listing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This situation presents an interesting contrast with that of Instagram. Here you have a site generating revenue - and more importantly profit - that is on sale for 0.00048 the sale price of Instagram... and then gets absolutely skewered in the comments for suggesting such an amount. Obviously, the purchase of Instagram comes with much more than simply a maintenance-free website and some paying customers. I'm not saying that Instagram is or is not worth $1B or that Sortfolio is or is not worth $480k, I'm just saying there's probably an interesting nugget hidden in this contrast that says something about what we value these days.

</comment><comment><USER10> I question whether this site it worth $480,000 cash, and here's why:

1\. How much of the site is tied into the 37 Signals brand, and is the reason people pay to be listed on the site because of it's affiliation with 37 Signals and the Ruby on Rails community?

2\. What's preventing competition from making their own similar service? Is there some barrier to entry or an unfair advantage?

So if this site is sold to someone else, will people still be interested in it now that it's no longer a part of 37 Signals? And what would prevent a competitor from creating a similar site for less than $480,000?

</comment><comment><USER30> Looks like very few (or none) of the people here have actually used Sortfolio as paying customers. I believe a lot of the doubt wouldn't be here if you would have done that.

As for some background information, then I run a small Ruby on Rails development agency called PerfectLine (<http://www.perfectline.ee>) that caters specifically to startup founders who need to create their minimum viable products.

We have been paying for Sortfolio since the beginning of 2010 and actually couldn't be any happier with the kind of leads it brings in. I can say that quite a big chunk of our customers have actually found us first on Sortfolio and they usually convert to actual sales pretty well. It might be that our price and quality of service is in the right spot but on the other hand there's a good chance that the people coming through Sortfolio usually have a decent knowledge about what they want and what to expect.

I believe that Sortfolio has actually helped quite a few small design or development teams get off ground. It worked really well for us and I don't see why anyone else should see any worse return rates. That $99 per month is so little when compared to actual return it will get you.

I noticed that Sortfolio currently has around 10,000 free users and I believe that with little upselling it would be possible to convert a good portion of them to paying customers thanks to the value it actually provides. So from that perspective it shouldn't be too hard to earn back the $480,000 37signals is asking for Sortfolio.

</comment><comment><USER31> They're already losing customers. Here's a customer's comment from their blog:

"As a paying customer, I'm so happy to hear you've put "no effort into it in the last year. I can confirm this by the total absence of leads from Sortfolio, despite the health of our other initiatives.

Account cancelled."

<comment><USER32> After reading the "sales pitch" I instantly had the same thought as the customer you quoted did. It really shows they are trying to make money out of something that no one wants IMO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> 3 good questions that have been overlooked, that I hope Jason will answer. Plus 1 question from me.

1) Do you have (and are willing to share) the credit card information on file for each customer? Or is the new Sortfolio owner expected to contact or otherwise prompt existing customers to re-enter their payment information?

2) I think it would be useful to know how much traffic / new signups come from other 37s sites vs SEO or links from other sites.

3) I am very curious if there is more information they'd be willing to release. For example, how many of those $99 customers are happy, how many have garnered business they can confirm came from Sortfolio, etc.

4) "If we can sell it for a fair price (we consider $480,000 fair), then we'll sell it. " What thought process did you use to arrive at an asking price equal to roughly 28x monthly revenue?

</comment><comment><USER34> Since you're thinking about closing it anyway why not choose a 2 person rails team that you could mentor to take over sortfolio.

Then it goes to a good home and you provide two rails developers a great opportunity and create two jobs.

Initially they can migrate the site to their own hosting.

You maintain links to sortfolio from 37 signals and continue to support and recommend sortfolio.

You maintain the existing billing system for them while they setup stripe for new signups and renewals.

Once a majority of the customers are on their stripe account then unplug your billing system.

Continuing to link to sortfolio and recommend it could be phased out over time.

Maybe they could pay a percentage of their revenue back to you over time.

Good luck finding sortfolio a new home.

</comment><comment><USER35> Such a weird sales tactic - sell it for $480k or shut it down. Isn't that a bit like the landlord of a profitable duplex selling it with the real estate listing as "Buy it for $480k or we'll burn it to the ground"?

</comment><comment><USER36> Does the haystack.com domain come with it?

<comment><USER37> I liked it better when it was Haystack, it meant something to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> The reason why the site is being sold is missing from the sell pitch. "We have no more time to take care of it..." so why are you guys saying it's generating 20k$ a month without you doing anything?

<comment><USER33> >"We have no more time to take care of it..." so why are you guys saying it's generating 20k$ a month without you doing anything?

You're right, this makes no sense.

37s is just trying for the hard sell. By adding a ticking time-bomb element to the sale (buy it at our price or it's gone forever!) they're hoping to pressure a buyer into coughing up a lot of money for it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Have you considered simply hireing someone to maintain the site/keep it afloat? Seems like this could be done remotely for the most part.

In fact this could be a decent idea for a "not so great dev->good dev" training project on your part. I guess you can afford to just hire really good people but maybe the forward thinking move would be to develop some training program for people fresh out of HS.

Pay them a comperatively low sum X/month but throw in a bit of mentoring. I'm sure you could get plenty of motivated people if you just ran a "37S got talent" type casting show here on HN.

Would cost you some valuable time for the mentoring but in return you'd get to keep that site's revenue and potentially gain a good employee for your core business down the line (which is the real value here imo)

This way you could keep the site connected to 37S and the credit processing stuff (which makes up a bunch of the value I'd guess) + generate some excitement as a nice side effect.

The idea seems pretty 37S-bootstrap like.

</comment><comment><USER40> When you say profit, do you really mean profit? What is one to make of those numbers in that spreadsheet? Surely there are hosting costs and processing fees that eat into that. Or do are those numbers figured after costs are taken into account?

In any case, I completely agree with everyone else here. Unless the 37Signals sites continue to link through to this site, it instantly loses at least 20-30% of it's value right off the bat. There is very little value in this site from an IP perspective. It appears that all the value comes from the existing user base and the publicity generated from 37Signals. I'm not going to discount the user base, that's obviously huge. But I'm not sure it's worth much without the 37Signals name behind it.

I have a hard time believing it would be worthwhile for them to hawk the site publicly just to fuck people over though, so I do take them at face value when they say that they believe it is worth that to them.

</comment><comment><USER41> Surely a lot of that value comes from the prestige and attention that accrue to 37signals, not because it's an amazing job board.

</comment><comment><USER42> Let me get this straight. You want to sell a web property that requires no effort to maintain and generates ~$17k/month(!). Wowzers, I'm jealous. Besides that, what happens if you don't sell it now that a "price" is on the market? I'm curious to know how this may affect other "meta" sites like this. I applaud you guys for the guts to do this.

</comment><comment><USER43> I think Sortfolio's secret weapon is not the code, the design or the feature set -- which I'm sure are all good -- but the fact that it was promoted by and connected from, eyeball traffic-wise, the huge audience that 37Signals, Basecamp, JF, DHH, already have. That said, if they can find a buyer who also has the ability to park it adjacent to a pre-existing web property, then it could be a smart buy. But if you don't have that? Probably a bad buy at the price they're asking. I'm reminded of how Atwood and Spolsky banded together to leverage their pre-existing eyeball streams to promote and get StackOverflow off the ground (essentially a repeat of what Spolsky did alone with his blog and FogCreek, but then on a large scale). There are lots of easy ways to make money if you already are famous and/or have a large traffic base. (See Paris Hilton.) Those methods don't exist for folks who don't start with that.

</comment><comment><USER44> @JasonFried

        "Sortfolio just isn't core to our business."

If Sortfolio was making more money, like $2M per year, would it then be "core to your business"?

Also, what about the Job Board?

Job board is effectively the same as Sortfolio, yet it makes millions per year. Why not shut down Job Board as well?

Lastly, what about Deck Network? This is yet another million dollar per year generating site that is a pure advertisement property. There's no way you can claim the Deck is core to 37signals.

So why don't you just admit what is truly happening here. You are unhappy with the relatively low revenue, and don't want the buried of the services anymore.

</comment><comment><USER45> I am very curious if there is more information they'd be willing to release. For example, how many of those $99 customers are happy, how many have garnered business they can confirm came from Sortfolio, etc. It seems like they've started, but not finished, to make one side of the market, but there's not much evidence about the other.

So few paying customers could be giant firms paying on the off chance that they get 1 client down the road. For it to be a compelling business, it would need to be clear that paying clients are finding developers there.

I would also be interested to know their goals when they built it, and why it's being sold.

<comment><USER46> "if there is more information they'd be willing to release. For example, how many of those $99 customers are happy, how many have garnered business they can confirm came from Sortfolio, etc."

Best way to gather this information is to take the time to contact the customers directly being honest as to the purpose of the inquiry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Sortfolio is listed for auction on Flippa - [https://flippa.com/2739829-sortfolio-com-web-design- marketpl...](https://flippa.com/2739829-sortfolio-com-web-design- marketplace-w-220k-annual-revenue)

Opening bid is $250K. Buy It Now is $480K.

Listing includes traffic/revenue claims. Check out the site details page to see incredibly strong keyword ranking: <https://flippa.com/auctions/2739829/due-diligence> . No prize for guessing which language its written in! ;-))

</comment><comment><USER48> Have you considered selling it directly to your user base?

<comment><USER49> How would that even work?

<comment><USER48> I'm making the assumption there is a dedicated group of users that wishes to see the site continue.

Financing can be done through a bank loan, private lenders, or escrow account. If it wasn't against some sort of investor protection idiocy (in the US), they could probably hold an auction for shares, turn it over to a board voted in by the share holders and then get on with the business of running the business.

Organization of the community I would imagine could work to something like how StackOverflow operates in it's community aspects.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I really wish I had that kind of money laying around, i'd would easily hand it over in a heartbeat. It would be such a shame for an almost auto-pilot business to be shutdown for no good reason other than its simply not worth it to 37Signals and while thats a perfectly legitimate reason, its so much potential lost for someone like me who would value it immensely.

</comment><comment><USER51> I don't have 480k, but I'd love to just work on the site and attempt some ideas with perhaps a rev-share agreement.

The site needs some TLC, but I'd hope that it could find some sort of home rather than completely die if no one buys for that price. (Besides, it has already been stated the two major hurdles are loss of the 37signals brand and billing switch)

</comment><comment><USER52> As someone who occasionally needs to hire webdesigners, IMHO Sortfolio is the best tool to do that. I've already hired one designer I found through the site this year, and talked with five or six others. I certainly hope that someone actually buys this and keeps developing it.

</comment><comment><USER53> I suggest you donate the profits to charity each year

Maybe to help kids learn how to code?

</comment><comment><USER54> I kinda want 37signals to donate it to the Apache Foundation. More open source projects could use attention from visual designers, I kinda want Apache to have a non-Java-based project, and 37Signals could add another project to /opensource.

</comment><comment><USER55> Anybody considering co-buying it?

</comment><comment><USER56> Is there a reason you are not going with a domain marketplace to sell this (eg: Sedo, Flippa)? I feel like posting on such sites would get it the exposure it needs to be sold.

<comment><USER3> We may do that too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> I personally think a fair price is the highest price the market will pay for it. Over a year to sell a website seems the price might be an issue.

</comment><comment><USER58> It should be ideal for companies like oDesk. They get readymade user base for the product that is similar to what they are doing.

</comment><comment><USER59> What's the churn?

</comment><comment><USER60> Anyone know what being a premium member gets you? I wasn't able to quickly figure that out upon first encounter.

<comment><USER61> > There is no charge to be listed on Sortfolio — every web designer gets a > free listing. We also offer a Pro listing for $99/month. The Pro listing > includes a larger interactive display ad, up to 6 large images, placement > above free ads, and a spot for your logo. You can upgrade, downgrade, or > cancel at any time.

<http://sortfolio.com/about>

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> What has the world come to, when a company such as 37Signals has to start flipping sites?

</comment><comment><USER63> Nobody wants the damn thing.

</comment><comment><USER64> Am I alone in feeling insulted in how this blog post was written/handled?

</comment><comment><USER46> The bottom line when evaluating whether to purchase this or not would involve doing due diligence and contacting the paying customers at the very least to determine how satisfied they are with being listed there.

The site is using auto-renewal billing and having someone not cancel is not the same as someone finding value in the service.

Also even though they would like to get $480,000 they should also invite any offers above $X. If nobody bids at $480,000 they will have to try to sell it at a lower price and it will seem like a fire sale.

<comment><USER3> "If nobody bids at $480,000 they will have to try to sell it at a lower price and it will seem like a fire sale."

It's not being sold for a lower price. It's $480,000 by July 1 or we close it down.

<comment><USER65> And they kill the puppy. Tell him about the puppy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> This may be one of my favorite posts on SVN for the sheer guts of it. "We had many tire kickers. We want X."

I love how open and direct 37signals culture is. Very inspiring.</comment>


The parallel evaluation of IIR filters – An Implementation - <AUTHOR> https://agentsim.github.io/2020/09/16/implementing_parallel_evaluation_of_iirs.html <comment><USER2> "Algorithms and Parallel Computing" by Fayez Gebali covers the parallelization of IIR filters in chapter 12. This is going to be a field that I need to study for a few days, or weeks before I'm really comfortable discussing results.

I will say that I thank you for submitting this to the discussion on Hacker News. It didn't get a lot of upvotes, but I'm still intrigued by this problem.

</comment><comment><USER2> I've deleted my earlier post because it does seem to be a difficult question on how to parallelize the "y" portion of IIR filters.

That's definitely an interesting topic. I'll have to give it more of a read and more thought later.</comment>


How to Get Funded in the Recession: The Frugal Mechanic Story - <AUTHOR> http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2009/02/12/how-to-get-funded-in-the-recession-the-frugal-mechanic-story/

<comment><USER2> This is not "how to get funded in the recession", it's "how one company got funded in the recession". Reasonably interesting article, but a bit of a linkbaiting title, don't you think?

</comment><comment><USER3> Having worked at eBay Motors in the past, I can tell you that what these guys have accomplished is far from easy. The catalog work necessary to present results in this format is far from easy. Good work and great start. Congrats, guys.

I think the long-term trick for a company like this one is driving organic traffic. They'll need to create a good bit of quality content to start ranking in Google search results. Without it, they'll be forced to buy traffic.

</comment><comment><USER4> +1 for providing a damn useful service. It is ridiculously hard to find even something as simple as a wiper blade or light bulb online, and a service that provides an amazon-quality shopping experience, especially across multiple sites, would be excellent. No reason everyone should be visiting the dealership for totally basic stuff that can be ordered online for super-cheap.

</comment><comment><USER5> "They settled on auto parts not because they were car enthusiasts,"

And it shows. As a car enthusiast I can tell you that their site sucks. They don't get the hobby and it shows. They have no idea about the industry at all.

<comment><USER6> the site didnt seem bad.. all that matters is variety and price (primarily) for the customer (as it isnt a hobby site).. isnt craigslist or ebay bad (not Ajxified etc) as well, aesthetically?

<comment><USER5> thats the thing, their variety is non-existent. Look for any real performance part, and you'll see that they have nothing but generic crap that noone wants to buy in the first place.

I'll give you an example. Lets say I own a 2004 STI(which is a pretty popular tuner car). And I want to buy myself some coilovers, well guess what...I can't! Because the only suspension product they have on that site for the car, is a set of cheap Eibach springs...which cost $20 bucks more than what you can pay on eBay.

<comment><USER7> vaksel, you're missing the target market completely. You're not it. It's car parts for people who use price engines like Froogle, not for car enthusiasts.

There is and always will be sites for guys like you and me (and I'm happy you're building another), who want performance parts. This is for people who consider their car simply transportation.

<comment><USER5> At least with Froogle you can find parts. Search for STI coilovers brings hundreds of results. And they have the good stuff: D2 Racing, Bilstein, Cusco, JIC etc.

And to me, I don't see the guys who use their cars as basic transportation, working on their own cars in the first place.

<comment><USER8> I do.

I'm an engineer. A car is just a tool, a tool for transportation. I don't neglect it, but I don't pay any more than absolutely necessary to keep it running. I work on my car myself because I am cheap and practical. I can't stand paying for things that I can do myself.

<comment><USER5> does work include other things besides oil changes?

<comment><USER8> Replaced front rotors, calipers, pads, master brake cylinder. Currently contemplating replacing rear brake drums and shoes. Probably need to replace some suspension components soon. My car has developed a troubling squeak and click in the front left.

So I do only basic things. I draw the line at anything engine related. I have too much fear that I could screw something up. If I had old beater project car (like a VW bug), I might consider trying more difficult stuff.

<comment><USER5> working on the engine is no different really. Remove part a, b, c, d to get to part e. And then replace that with the new part and put everything back together.

Most things can be pretty much taken apart with a socket wrench.

<comment><USER8> Thats true. Maybe I'll venture further away from my safety zone in the future.

Problems get harder to diagnose in the engine, though. I find the diagnosing the problem is where the skill is.

Also, as repairs become more complicated, I have discovered that the chances of needing to replace something that you don't have a spare for go up. It sucks to have to bike down to the auto parts store and retrieve 40 lbs of parts in my backpack.

<comment><USER5> To tell the truth engine problems fall into two categories...serious ones, like engine knock which you really can't do anything about to something simple like a heat shield rattle or a loose gasket. There is really no middle ground. And for the "serious" problems, its usually cheaper to replace the whole motor, than to do the repairs.

Granted that mostly applies to japanese cars. You drive a BMW and to replace an engine will cost you 10 grand. While even the most rare JDM swaps will run you at most 5K.

For example, one guy I know never changes the oil on his daily driver civic. Why? Because he figured out that its cheaper for him to replace an engine every 80K miles, than it is to spend the money on an oil change.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> That founders co-op - do they only fund companies that are in Seattle? Looking at their FAQ and application - doesn't come right out and say so, but it appears to be the point of their operation - or at least a driving point.</comment>


Show HN: Convenient self-education through books. Is it possible?. LearnBay - <AUTHOR> Every time when I am trying to learn any topic through books, I am looking for books' selections that can help me to handle a topic and every time I encounter the same problems:
1)The majority of books' selections is subjective
2) In order to make them objective, I should spend a bunch of time on analyzing a lot of selections, on searching the best books on the selections, on understanding why should I read the book and where I can apply what I read, and finally - reading a huge number of reviews - all these steps take me several hours to complete.
3) If I do not make them objective, I often waste money and time on shitty books.
I asked my friends, and do you know what? Of course, you know what, they have the same problems.
Therefore, I decided to create an app that can help me, my friends, and other people, who want to get structured and modern knowledge using the books.
The app brings together the best books. They are all organized by topics. Also, each book has a structured description to help you understand what is in the book and why to read it.
Why is it objective???
Our team analyzes information from all over the internet. Dozens of articles, videos, hundreds of reviews, plenty of conversations with professionals on forums. Thus, you get the most objective books' selections.
If you like the idea – download the app and try it, maybe you will find something useful for yourself.
The app is in the MVP stage; therefore, I ask everyone who is interested in the development of this idea to give feedback in the comments on google play or here. Any suggestions and criticism.
If we unite ideas, we can make self-education convenient and better.
LINK ON GOOGLE PLAY -- https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.LearnBay.LearnBay <comment><USER2> Good idea!

Some topics are too niche for you to be able to be picky. How do you deal with that?

Also, do you look at the latest books to update your recommendation process?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello,

Initially, I want to fulfill the most popular topics and topics that cover my specializations. When it gets to topics that are too niche, I am planning to hire some people that work in the niche. Thus, some independent researches with experience in learning using books will collect the best information, and then they will discuss and structure it.

The app is new, so all books are modern. However, later all topics of course will be updated

Thanks for your feedback, share the idea to get more feedback and refine it.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why haven't universities moved to textbook subscriptions - <AUTHOR>

Does anyone here know of a service that allows students to rent e-versions of classroom textbooks for the duration of a semester? <comment><USER2> I don't know of any service that does that, but I've been toying around with a similar idea for some time - a service that helps students rent textbooks from others, make deposits, track who's renting my books, etc. Students would then compete on their rental fees. I figured it'd be a good way for students to make some side cash, seeing as how a lot of the times, students have a hard time selling their texts at the end of the term, and the buy-back programs set up by the schools themselves can give you something like only 30% of what you originally paid to purchase the text, which is really nothing at all.

<comment><USER3> That's actually a pretty good idea but I was thinking something along the lines of a subscription type of service that works very closely with publishers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I know there are plenty of physical book rental services, such as:

<http://www.chegg.com/>

However, I really don't know of any ebook rental service. I guess it sounds like a good idea, but as a college student myself I prefer real books.

<comment><USER3> This is what I don't understand. Most students just use the book for the class they are in and then completely forget about it. Wouldn't it be better if schools included e-versions of textbooks as part of the tuition? It would be way cheaper for everyone and publisher could incorporate feedback in real time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> CourseSmart (<http://www.coursesmart.com>) seems to do what you're looking for. I think it's either run by, or is closely affiliated with a bunch of the major textbook publishers.

<comment><USER3> This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. Although I expected the prices to be much lower.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> At the University of Waterloo, a lot of people this year seem to be using <http://moarbooks.ca/></comment>


Show HN: The Pond – Find Relevant Cofounders and Startups - <AUTHOR> https://thepond.app <comment><USER2> Neat! One idea you might try is to have co-founder "speed dating", where you work on a side project or hackathon contest or something to try and find out how you work together. Perhaps you "go on" 10 or 20 side projects with potential matches over the course of a year, and you find a few that might click.

I've found no faster way to figure out how well you work with someone than to just do something with them (anything), and see how it goes over a few months.

Site looks good. nice job!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! That's definitely something to consider implementing down the road as we grow!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I assume no country selection on the phone number login AND only phone number option as login, means no signups for people outside US..

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, sorry - since we just launched this week, it's only available for people in the U.S. and Canada. However, we do plan to expand globally down the road - I can let you know when that happens!</comment></comment>


"Notice of Criminality" Received via Email from City of London (UK) Police - <AUTHOR> http://blog.easydns.org/2014/08/29/city-of-london-pipcu-sending-notices-of-criminality-to-registrars/

<comment><USER2> Quite astonishing overreach by CoL Police, who're now acting as the copyright police for most of the UK for reasons that are, at best opaque to most people. (Partly a decision that several functions split between the Met and CoL would be reallocated, with City taking copyright and IP 'crime', all CounterTerrorism and intelligence going back to the Met in trade).

</comment><comment><USER3> This is an old complaint but all the header links lead back to blog.easydns.org instead of easydns.org itself. Which is a shame because you look great in those posts and viewers will want to check out your offer.</comment>


Great products for entrepreneurs - <AUTHOR> http://azeemazhar.com/?p=406

<comment><USER2> These are a bit weak. I expected to see Dropbox (excellent) and something like RememberTheMilk... but Quaker Oats? and a sleeping App and a duvet. Just in case I forget to eat or sleep or buy an iPhone?</comment>


China Blasts US On Debt Ceiling - <AUTHOR> http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2011/07/29/china-blasts-us-on-debt-ceiling/

<comment><USER2> Speaking as somehow who's rather naive, it would seem logical to me that given the significant U.S. interest in Chinese monitary policy and China's significant interest in our debt policy, some reciprocity would be in order.</comment>


Window indicators for Ubuntu ("windicators") - <AUTHOR> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333

<comment><USER2> Finally a sensible explanation for why the window title bar widgets were moved to the left in Ubuntu 10.04.

<comment><USER3> It might make more sense for window controls to also be status applets, since not all windows can be minimized, maximized, or closed. For instance, if a particular window is no longer needed and only showing some completed action, the close button could turn green. If there's an error, it could turn red. If a process could take a long time, a progress bar could appear and the minimize button could turn green. If a web browser could show a web page better with fullscreen, the maximize button could turn blue. This would follow the applet colour coding scheme.

One could even add some custom window commands (such as resize to content) to their applications.

<comment><USER4> >since not all windows can be minimized, maximized, or closed.

This is one of the worst usability problems on the desktop. Granted, it doesn't show up in the "default configuration" but do a little thing like change the text size and that dialog box that won't let you resize suddenly is completely broken.

Though I suppose this is part of a bigger problem, that changing fonts is by design a "power user" feature.

<comment><USER3> In Gnome, all windows can be resized.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The end result of a full screen interface with minimal chrome for devices with small screens is great.

It's interesting how we've gone a full circle right back to full screen single tasking apps. Perhaps this is the iPhone's influence?

Maybe we'll finally get the purple button in the next Mac OS X? [http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2000/02/mac-os-x- dp3.ar...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2000/02/mac-os-x-dp3.ars/5)

<comment> loup-vaillant It could be the iPhone. Or just Apple's old interfaces. Or tiling window managers, whose philosophy is to maximize screen usage by default. For instance, the Netbook edition smart panel example would integrate beautifully with Xmonad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Mark Shuttleworth uses Balsamiq Mockups. That's a great endorsement for Balsamiq.

</comment><comment><USER7> Ick! So they are taking the functionality of dock/bar icon apps and reproducing it in each window title bar? Seems needlessly complicated and cluttered to me. I prefer a simple, streamlined design myself.

<comment><USER8> Analogously:

Ick! So they are taking a chunk off the bottom of the window for a couple icons that could just as well have lived in the title bar? Seems needlessly complicated and cluttered; just put all the icons in one place.

<comment><USER9> I like that! Put more stuff in the title bar of the app.

Except, in Netbook Edition when you expand an application you no longer see its title bar.

<comment><USER10> The plan I believe for Netbook edition is to incorporate these icons into the global menu.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I am not sure why this particular UI layout (and the infamous left-side buttons were at all necessary). There is another equally viable alternative, without all the complex re-engineering needed for "client side window decorations".

let the window controls and buttons stay as they were pre-lucid. The left side button – the window control menu – will glow/shine when the application window has updated a status. Clicking on the window control button will show a drop down that has (in addition to the "To Desktop","Resize", "Maximize", etc.) an alerts subsection. Clicking on the events in the alerts subsection will behave exactly the way windicators work in the above design.

Cons: rather than have all indicators in front of you at all times, you have to take the bother of clicking the window control button (or press alt- spacebar). Pros: My mother doesnt need to be puzzled about what the green shiny button is supposed to indicate, in the drop down, I can have text as well as an icon.

</comment><comment><USER12> Ubuntu user here. I am a bit wary of this change because it breaks the visual consistency from a desktop POV. In theory this idea is great if people used the same icons and conventions. Sadly consistency is not one of linux'es strong points. I fully expect java, tk, qt, gnome, wxwidgets to each design their own window decorators which behave / appear ever so different. Perhaps it would have been better to expose some inbuilt "Windicators" via a DBus service and applications that wanted to show a windicator could set a message to the DBUS service. To be fair maybe the Ubuntu folks have a perfect design for this, but since they havent released it its hard to be optimistic. edit to add more pessimism - This will only make life more difficult for tiling window managers like ratpoison, xmonad, awesome that dont support window decorators, because many apps will go ahead and just assume the presence of a window decorator on every window.

</comment><comment><USER13> I still don't get it. Why change the position of the controls and put indicators there? Why not use the left side for the indicators and remove the `arrow`?

Maybe I'm becoming one of the tinfoil hat people, but: They change the controls position and allow the application itself to draw the windicators. Application knows nothing about the controls position or the theme really, so it's possible that ubuntu applications will simply draw on the right. Suddenly people have to patch the applications to use them on another distribution and use themes that match what ubuntu apps try to do... Did I miss something?

All of this seems weird again when they presented screenshots with ~6 icons in the notification area as a "bad" example and now they put the same amount of icons per application (where applications can use their own icon styles).

<comment><USER14> I think the ~6 icons was to demonstrate the color scheme (red/green/blue/black) described later in the article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hey Mark, it would have been a good idea if you'd mentioned this in the context of the whole "buttons on the left" debacle. At least then there would have been some justification for the UI change other than the nebulous "frees up space nicely on the right".

Maybe he just enjoyed watching the ensuing drama.

</comment><comment><USER16> The Ubuntu changes make me cringe - I like how windows are now, and this sort of change makes me hesitant to upgrade.

I like using Ubuntu, but several times when I've upgraded it trashed my system, or features didn't work right on an upgraded system while they did on a fresh install.

Those are the issues I think they need to work on - making it flawless for the masses to use. A bad upgrade experience for a normal user and they'll go running back to Mac/Windows. On top of that changing things like this will make it harder for normal users to find the buttons they're used to.

I'm not anti-progress, but it seems like you should make significant changes _after_ you have a large market share.

<comment><USER17> _I'm not anti-progress, but it seems like you should make significant changes after you have a large market share._

They're already the Linux distro with the greatest desktop market share. What more do you want them to wait for?

<comment><USER16> Something higher than single digit percentages. Firefox, for instance.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Interesting but looks cluttered.

</comment><comment><USER19> im all for inovation. But his example was the worst.

Removing the status bar from the browser and using more space on the title?

Ive been using no title on my browser (go gtkrc) even before chrome. Because the tabs do the same work as the title (display page title) plus added funtionality. So its only natural to remove the title bar. Not add stuff there.

Also everyone uses xterm titles as a status bar.

<comment><USER20> I thought the example of per application volume control/mute was pretty useful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Wait, what?

You want to clutter up the window title bar with more garbage?

This is why Mac OS X is the only viable desktop Unix. Apple knows how to distinguish between the simple, elegant, and _useful_ and the eye candy which distracts and interferes with attention.

<comment><USER9> Why do I have the creeping suspicion that you haven't ever even used Ubuntu, and are just using this as a platform for your Mac fanboyism?

I LOVE Mac, but let me tell you, with this latest release, I LOVE Ubuntu more!</comment></comment>


New SMB bug: How to crash Windows system with a 'link of death' - <AUTHOR> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/04/windows_flaw_adds_crashing_as_a_service/ <comment><AUTHOR> Specifics on the vulnerability [1], proof-of-concept [2].

[1] [https://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/867968](https://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/867968)

[2] [https://github.com/lgandx/PoC/blob/master/SMBv3%20Tree%20Con...](https://github.com/lgandx/PoC/blob/master/SMBv3%20Tree%20Connect/Win10.py)</comment>


3D printed sundial whose precise holes cast a shadow displaying the current time - <AUTHOR> http://www.mojoptix.com/2015/10/25/mojoptix-001-digital-sundial/ <comment><USER2> Interesting, on the Southern hemisphere, the sundial needs to point to the South Pole and the design needs to be altered:

"in the Openscad script you can set a flag that will simply rotate upside-down the whole swiss cheese inside the gnomon, and build a 'Southern-hemisphere' version of the gnomon. This way, the 'roo can simply use this Southern- hemisphere sundial exactly the same way a cow or a penguin would use their Northern-hermisphere version the sundial, with just one difference: the 'roo will have to point the tip of his sundial toward the _South_ Pole." [1]

[1] [http://www.mojoptix.com/2015/10/25/mojoptix-001-digital- sund...](http://www.mojoptix.com/2015/10/25/mojoptix-001-digital-sundial/)

<comment><USER3> > _a cow or a penguin would use their Northern-hermisphere version the > sundial_

But penguins live in the southern hemisphere. Conspiracy?! Maybe!

It must be a Galapagos penguin: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galapagos_penguin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galapagos_penguin)

<comment><USER4> A YouTube commenter offered a possibly more plausible explanation:

> Angela Brett 1 month ago

> +Tainer Waynes Maybe he confused the English word penguin with the French > word pingouin, which means auk (a bird similar to a penguin which lives in > the Northern Hemisphere.) The French word for penguin is actually manchot. > :)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrsje5It_UU&lc=z13uhf54clysu...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrsje5It_UU&lc=z13uhf54clysu1keb23pwrmxhryzcrqbt04)

<comment><USER5> An auk has a black beak, the penguin in the video is of the orange beaked cartoon type of penguin.

<comment><USER6> Maybe, but as a french speaker I can confirm that it's easy to confuse. I just learned that Pingouin and Penguin are not the same. There is even a whole section explaining more subtleties about why it's often missuses in the french language.

Confusion habituelle

Par abus de langage, le pingouin est souvent confondu avec les manchots, des oiseaux de la famille des sphéniscidés qui vivent dans l'hémisphère sud et ne volent pas. La principale raison de cette confusion est la ressemblance avec la plus grande des deux espèces de pingouin, le grand pingouin.

Une autre source d'erreur est la parenté étymologique entre le mot français pingouin et celui désignant les manchots dans les principales langues européennes comme pinguïn en néerlandais, pingüino en espagnol, Pinguin en allemand, pinguino en italien, penguin en anglais, пингвин (pingvin) en russe, ou encore pinguim en portugais.

Dans de nombreuses langues, deux termes différents sont utilisés pour désigner les deux espèces de pingouin, ce terme n'a donc pas de traduction exacte. En anglais, le terme Great Auk désigne le grand Pingouin, auk étant un terme générique désignant le plus souvent l'ensemble des alcidés. Le petit Pingouin est quant à lui appelé razorbill. En catalan ou en italien, respectivement les termes de gavot et alca sont en revanche utilisés comme en français pour désigner les deux espèces.

<comment><USER3> The Oxford dictionary has an entry on the origin of the word penguin: [http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/what-is-the- origin-o...](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/what-is-the-origin-of- the-word-penguin)

And they made a short video on the same: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09oIwSQ6q4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09oIwSQ6q4)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> On original site: [http://www.mojoptix.com/2015/10/25/mojoptix-001-digital- sund...](http://www.mojoptix.com/2015/10/25/mojoptix-001-digital-sundial/)

<comment><USER8> Thanks.

Also, I encourage everyone to donate to the guy, which you can do here: [http://www.mojoptix.com/donations-page/](http://www.mojoptix.com/donations- page/)

What he is doing is just so wonderful and inspiring in so many ways, and to top it all off, he's doing it without muddling up his content with ads and other gimmicks. Please repay him for what he is so selflessly giving out for free and without strings attached. (He is sharing all files, all 3d designs etc... of such complicated things, a lot of people don't do that, so this guy is just super brilliant). I don't make a lot of money but I'll be giving him $50. I hope you can give even more. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Skip the intro and see it in action: [https://youtu.be/wrsje5It_UU?t=12m58s](https://youtu.be/wrsje5It_UU?t=12m58s)

<comment><USER10> I found the explanation of the technical challenges well done and worth the time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Probably just as impressive is this (patent just expired) digital sundial: [http://www.digitalsundial.com/](http://www.digitalsundial.com/)

</comment><comment><USER12> Very, very, cool. This got me searching for other implementations of a digital display sundial.

This one is interesting...uses a mask of slits [http://www.fransmaes.nl/genk/welcome-e.htm](http://www.fransmaes.nl/genk/welcome-e.htm) (iframes, ugh...click #8 in the left sidebar)

Edit: Another cool implementation [http://www.voshart.com/SUN-CUBE- prototype](http://www.voshart.com/SUN-CUBE-prototype)

<comment><USER13> I bought one of those a while ago, very clever.

They are sold at [http://www.digitalsundial.com/](http://www.digitalsundial.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Can anyone tell me how OpenSCAD compares to something like SolidWorks for designing objects? I'd much prefer to learn something open and programmable, but if SolidWorks is much easier to use for common cases, then I'd go with that.

I've never used any 3D designing program other than SketchUp.

<comment><USER15> Yeah they're not remotely comparable. For 99% of CAD stuff SolidWorks is _far_ superior. It is only with occasional tasks that are generative or highly repetitive that you would sanely want to use OpenSCAD.

Examples of when you'd use OpenSCAD:

* Computational art (e.g. convert a photo into some 3D model, print a sound wave, etc.)

* Gears, sprockets, etc.

* Fasteners (nuts, bolts, screws, etc.)

Examples of things you would be insane to use OpenSCAD for, and should definitely use something like SolidWorks:

* Motorbike

* Cordless drill

* CNC machine

* Well pretty much everything except the stuff I listed above

<comment><USER16> There's also the point that SokidWorks costs $4000 minimum! (Excluding the student license).

For many purposes, such as the author sharing his designs with random viewers, that makes it a non-starter.

<comment><USER17> An alternative commercial program (not OSS), but free for Hobbyists is Autodesk Fusion 360.

It does have significant drawbacks... but if you're just getting into CNC stuff, it has fairly decent CAM functionality in built, making it a reasonable intro thing. :)

<comment><USER14> Hmm, it looks like that's only free for 30 days?

<comment><USER17> It shouldn't be. It's supposed to be for 1 year, and be renewable. I've been using it on and off for a few months now, without issue, if that helps. :)

<comment><USER14> You're right, they mention somewhere you open up the trial and select "I'm a hobbyist" and it becomes free, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This older one is pretty neat, too. I've owned it for a while and still can't really figure it out--the shadow mask is incredibly thin, and as far as I can tell it works on magic. [http://www.digitalsundial.com/product.html](http://www.digitalsundial.com/product.html)

<comment><USER19> Here is the patent for that product. Perhaps this will shed some light on how it works. I'll see myself out. [http://www.google.com/patents/US5590093](http://www.google.com/patents/US5590093)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Very cool!

Also apparently a 'digital' sundial was patented at one point - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_sundial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_sundial)

[http://www.hineslab.com/digital-sundial/](http://www.hineslab.com/digital- sundial/) \- The notebook drawings are cool

<comment><USER21> So would OP be the 'fractal sundial'?

<comment><USER22> I would consider it a holographic sundial.

A fractal is "any of various extremely irregular curves or shapes for which any suitably chosen part is similar in shape to a given larger or smaller part when magnified or reduced to the same size"[0].

A hologram is "a three-dimensional image reproduced from a pattern of interference produced by a split coherent beam of radiation"[1].

The 3rd dimensional component of the hologram is modulated by the position of the sun instead of the observer.

[0] [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fractal](http://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/fractal)

[1] [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hologram](http://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/hologram)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There's a high profile public digital sundial in Paris, installed in 1989:

[http://www.cadrans-solaires.fr/cadran-halles-paris.html](http://www.cadrans- solaires.fr/cadran-halles-paris.html)

<comment><USER24> Unsure this is still there, Les Halles has been under major works for the last 4 years - haven't seen the sun dial for years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I doubts the claim about only being able to produce with a 3d printer. I can imagine easily making the layers in mass out of wood and sliding them through bandsaws to mass produce these.

<comment><USER26> That sounds orders of magnitude more difficult. You might as well 5-axis machine them.

<comment><USER27> You don't need 5 axes to machine what he machined. It looks like you can do it with 3 (at least, my CNC seems to think it will do it). 4 at the worst if you want to spin it for some reason.

Truthfully, the problem they have is that it's still cheaper, easier, and more accurate to do this with a subtractive CNC machine.

Plus you aren't material limited.

<comment><USER28> This can't be done in a single setup on a 3-axis, its not xy-monotonic (there are overhangs). Theoretically you could do it on a 3 axis by manually remounting the piece at different angles, but it would be hundreds if not thousands of setups. 4 axis is definitely the practical minimum to machine it.

<comment><USER27> It looked like the the overhangs can be machined with a small rabbeting bit (remember that we can use more than just end mills :P), and like i said, both my pieces of HSM software seemed to think it wasn't trouble (IE the simulated finished piece is within 0.001).

You are right that in practice, you would likely want a 4th axis rather than messing around, but a 4 axis setup is just not a big deal (the 4th axis on my woodworking CNC cost < 4k)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This kind of creativity is really something special to the 21st century; not just that people can make things but that they can make things which are so complex and otherwise would have been cost prohibitive before CNC technologies like 3d printing.

<comment><USER30> You're serious? There are a few centuries of history in amazing timekeeping engineering -- long before, guffaw, CNC. Just a random link to a Breguet, for instance:

[http://www.breguet.com/en/house-breguet/manufacture/marie- an...](http://www.breguet.com/en/house-breguet/manufacture/marie-antoinette- pocket-watch)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Amazing!

I am wondering how much extra time it will take for 3D printing as we add support for 10 minute time interval, 1 minute interval and then seconds (extra set of digits HH:MM:SS).

Also will it be practically possible to have second-level granularity?

<comment><USER32> The width of the Sun in the sky is wide enough that it takes about 1 minute and ten seconds to cross its own diameter. So optically speaking, it would be pretty much impossible to have any resolution finer than a minute, no matter how small the holes are.

<comment><USER33> I cannot see how to do it, but one way to beat that limit might be the use of diffraction gratings. It might be possible to have the light from two opposing edges of the solar disk interfere and produce a darker spot, thus allowing one to draw the time in darker text on a light background.

If that can work, I guess both the design (I can't see how to design one object that shows a number for say 5 seconds; now fit thousands in a single object) and the engineering challenge would be quite a bit higher (at submicrometer scales), and that the resulting contrast of the display would be a lot lower.

<comment><USER34> Sun isn't a coherent light source, so no interference of light from different sides..

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I loved this. Then I thought how about if you could use words which appear in the shadow over the day.

As ever someone had already had the same idea written the code to produce the OpenSCAD files for different wordings and put it on Github:

[https://github.com/roipoussiere/Customizable-Shadow- Display](https://github.com/roipoussiere/Customizable-Shadow-Display)

</comment><comment><USER36> Cool! Perhaps someone could cast a piece like this with concrete or baked clay inside a larger, sturdy building to display an alphanumeric message to future generations, only during specific alignments. I can see one potential benefit compared to hieroglyphs, tablets, pillars[0], and other megalithic messages that some of our ancestors left us; it would take different skills to warp its message than simply a chisel or spray paint. One fictional story that comes to mind, Indiana Jones' Staff of Ra[1], makes this seem like even if only for a treasure hunt game, it would make for a fun story later on.

0: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Pillars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka_Pillars)

1: [http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Headpiece_to_the_Staff_of...](http://indianajones.wikia.com/wiki/Headpiece_to_the_Staff_of_Ra)

<comment><USER37> [http://longnow.org/clock/](http://longnow.org/clock/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> It should display the time with Roman Numerals... then ancient Romans could use it.

This is very cool, I'm going to have to play with OpenSCAD.

</comment><comment><USER39> This is just incredible, would love to see a version with milliseconds support:) It'd also be nice if the numbers didn't fade in/out but had a sharp cut off point where they'd quickly switch.

<comment><USER40> While theoretically possible, it'll be very difficult to realize physically. If you allow fractal constructions, purely unrectifiable sets can fit the bill. For example, here's an example in 2-dimensional space that casts a solid shadow when the light source is along one axis but not from any other: [https://books.google.com/books?id=usjNBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=&p...](https://books.google.com/books?id=usjNBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q&f=false)

<comment><USER41> With millisecond precision I think it's even theoretically impossible as the slits would become so small it destroys the shadow in an effect seen in the double slit experiment.

But that's just a gut feeling.

<comment> Const-me You'll have to make 500 meters thick clock, but theoretically it's possible.

<comment><USER42> And practically, too, perhaps not politically or economically possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Something like this came up on hn a while back: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8042673](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8042673)

</comment><comment><USER44> Very clever! Is there any reason why you couldn't just carve out tunnels shaped like the numbers, using a stencil typeface?

<comment><USER39> You'd need a lot more carvings.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> How does the error vary with how far you are from the edge of the time zone?

<comment><USER46> As much as local solar time differs from your time zone. This would be of limited use in China, for instance, where the entire country is on a single timezone, despite solar time having a four and a bit hour spread.

<comment><USER47> It would be relatively easy to modify the script for your own location in China to display the correct time. So that it is not displaying 12:00 when the sun is directly overhead.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Wow. This is amazing!

</comment><comment><USER49> finally a killer app for 3d printing. Future is here.

</comment><comment><USER50> so this proves that time really exists ;)

<comment><USER36> If you see that when it casts these shadows, then you could call it real, sure. You could also look at it as celestial bodies aligning and their patterns of shades of light.

Accuracy helps a lot when using understanding of some things' existence to find another thing and its attributes (incomplete understatement). Proof making and checking helps a lot for someone to stay true to their beliefs and maintain a consistently accurate path.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Seems cool. But a 15-minute video? Pictures or it didn't happen.</comment>


Giving Generative Art Its Due - <AUTHOR> https://www.artnome.com/news/2019/4/17/giving-generative-art-its-due <comment><USER2> Great article!

This is total nonsense though: "Virtually all contemporary AI artists credit Mordvintsev's DeepDream as a primary source of inspiration for their interest in machine learning and art."

<comment><USER3> Indeed. Also, the use of"AI" is overstated. Much generative art is a combination of algorithms and randomness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Poor fractals and fractal flames get ignored, even when generated with scripts. Sure, there's no "AI" (yet) behind fractals, but it is the most visually appealing of all simple-rule-based generative art IMO. Of course, my definition here of "generative art" is a bit broad. Then again, the idea of "art" in general has evolved under the guise of referring to end-works (works that don't do much if anything by way of utility). It went from meaning created by skill (the art of craftsmanship, requiring more unique motor skills / talent than typing at a keyboard) and created for beauty to simply meaning something that pleases something in some sensational way ("sensational" meaning "by means of the senses"). Thus, it's no surprise that computer- generated art is gaining traction, all the while we are in fact no longer creating Michael Angelos (for reasons beyond the scope of this comment)... unless you know where to look.

<comment><USER5> actually the Electric Sheep has fractal flame animations designed by AI (a genetic algorithm not a neural network).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'd never seen that Casey Reas reel before. How cool that those drawing "processes" formed the basis of the Processing environment ;)

<comment><USER7> > those drawing "processes" formed the basis of the Processing environment

Processing(.org and proce55ing.net before that) has been around since roughly 2001, proceeding the work shown in the video by a few years.

How is the 'basis' of something formed by a derivative work that came years after?

<comment><USER8> [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processing_(programming_lang...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processing_\(programming_language\))</comment></comment></comment>


"Coincidence Detector" the Chrome Extension White Supremacists Use to Track Jews - <AUTHOR> https://mic.com/articles/145105/coincidence-detector-the-google-extension-white-supremacists-use-to-track-jews#.kaVcRnaXq <comment><USER2> > "What happens is the judge, who happens to be, we believe, Mexican, which is > great. I think that's fine," \- Mr. Trump

Imagine if Trump got Judge (((Lipset))) and didn't have the Coincidence Detector installed, he might not have realized the truth until it's too late!

They should have just called it Dog Whistle -- We tell you what to think so you don't have to.

</comment><comment><USER3> Well then. That's a thing.

Recently on reddit I encountered an anti-semite anarchist*, who complained that in their country (they didn't say specifically but I assume they meant Germany) expressing their anti-semetic views was punishable by jail time.

Now, with this "echoes" thing also being a thing about evading detection, I am led to notice, uh, I guess racists(in the strong sense of the term, not just the weaker "has racial biases, but not necessarily believing any racist statements" sense) having an interest in communicating with each-other in ways that are less detectable.

I think privacy and ability to communicate privately and such are very important, and I also think that preventing harassment is very important.

As such, I think that it is worth looking for ways that something can further both ideals, (without compromising anything on the privacy / communication front, nor on the anti-harassment front), and which is also easy to use.

One idea that comes to mind, but which I don't know if it furthers the ideal of private communications, is creating noise in the channel of extra parentheses that these people are using.

Like, say, what if so many names were triple parenthesized that it ceased to be a useful signal for these people? Is that practical, or would it not do anything because they would consider who is saying it, and therefore disregard the parentheses?

Another thing is that even if that could be done, they could probably just switch to something else which is almost as effective.

And again, there is the question of whether it is even a good thing to attempt to disrupt these signals?

Perhaps it would better serve the purpose of reducing harassment to detect the signals instead of making them noisy.

[I think I had some sort of point about dog-piling and the term "dog-piling" here, but I couldn't remember what my point was from the start of what I wrote, so I removed it.]

There are many hard problems here I think.

<comment><USER4> Excellent point that this is a tool that allows anti-semites to communicate in a less publicly visible manner.

The database they are using is gated so the best an actor could hope for is to flood the submissions to make updates more costly. Of course such an action would only strengthen the resolve of these groups.

In terms of mining the signal, one could try to look for correlations between people being added to the list and comments made against those people. The idea is that people using this plugin will have their behaviors influenced in a detectable manner. Effectively scrape the comments sections of new sites and fish out those using the tool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If they built a "Coincidence Detector" for racists, would you object?

<comment><USER6> Racists have a tendency to make their racism obvious. Jews don't even have a true commonality of ethnicity, much less opinion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is there a Firefox version available?</comment>


Inspiring website built in HTML5, could you do this in Flash? - <AUTHOR> http://www.kulu.lu/devunplugged/

<comment> T-zex Too heavy for my mac mini :(

<comment><AUTHOR> Html 5 features powerful gpu hardware acceleration. If you really want to enjoy the new power of html 5 websites, upgrade to IE 9 or Firefox 4.</comment></comment>