Ten Bullets [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49p1JVLHUos&t=68s <comment><USER2> Tom Sachs does have a reputation for being a dictator, but that attitude has led to fascinating work that can't be put together without the close collaboration of a big team (e.g. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm3M9v3vS0I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm3M9v3vS0I)). Remember, it's typical for famous artists to work with assistants who are not credited (e.g. Damien Hirst's spot painters [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art- news/9010657/Dam...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art- news/9010657/Damien-Hirst-assistants-make-my-spot-paintings-but-my-heart-is- in-them-all.html)). Sach's team is front and center in a lot of his work.

I confess I have his ten bullets on my wall because I think it helps me be a good contributor to my team. I think you can boil it down even further to Brancusi's 3 bullets: "create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave".

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sachs_(artist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sachs_\(artist\))

</comment><comment><USER4> I thought I was going to find this unknown but great bullet-hell game here: [https://www.crazygames.com/game/10-bullets- html-5](https://www.crazygames.com/game/10-bullets-html-5)

</comment><comment><USER5> Always be knolling is a great lesson for pretending you're organized.

<comment><USER6> Even if you don't care about the angles, "put away everything not in use" and "group like objects together" sound like actual organization to me.

What does "organized" mean to you, if not these?

<comment><USER7> Organization doesn't happen when you put things away, it happens when you go to locate them again.

For some people that's a tautology, but not for everyone.

<comment><USER8> I like this. I love the aesthetic of a clean "organized" workspace, but damned if mine aren't often the opposite. Your observation of what-follows-what is actually profound in light of what I guess (and you suggest) an "obviously organized" space is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What exactly does it mean to "maintain a Work Hard, Play Hard policy"? Besides being required verbiage on every company's 'Culture' and 'Career' webpages, of course. In the Seattle web startup community, it seems to mean Drink Hard, but I don't think that's what he means here.

Is it just an empty phrase that means nothing, so the speaker and listener can both nod and think they agree perfectly, when in fact they have no common conception of this idea at all?

<comment><USER9> It is an empty phrase used to excuse overwork.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> On the one hand, I agree with commentors that this is way too long and way too over the top... but I think that is definitely the point.

If you don't want to be in my studio, and follow my rules, I don't want you to be in my studio. The length and tone of the video ensures that non-compliers will self select out of the applicant pool.

However, not having the content available in written form is really not acceptable.

</comment><comment><USER11> Was thinking this video was very Casey Neistat especially the way it is oragnised, and then he shows up.

<comment><USER12> I think it was directed and voiced by his brother Van Neistat

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpXDzL-h7cI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpXDzL-h7cI)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> TOM SACHS is a sculptor, probably best known for his elaborate recreations of various Modern icons, all of them masterpieces of engineering and design of one kind or another. In an early show he made Knoll office furniture out of phone books and duct tape; later, he recreated Le Corbusier's 1952 Unité d'Habitation using only foamcore and a glue gun. Other projects have included his versions of various Cold War masterpieces, like the Apollo 11 Lunar Excursion Module, and the bridge of the battleship USS Enterprise. And because no engineering project is more complex and pervasive than the corporate ecosystem, he's done versions of those, too, including a McDonald's he built using plywood, glue, assorted kitchen appliances. He's also done Hello Kitty and her friends in materials ranging from foamcore to bronze.

A lot has been made of the conceptual underpinnings of these sculptures: how Sachs' sampling capitalist culture, remixing, dubbing and spitting it back out again, so that the results are transformed and transforming. Equally, if not more important, is his total embrace of "showing his work." All the steps that led up to the end result are always on display. On a practical level, this means that all seams, joints, screws or for that matter anything holding stuff together, like foamcore and plywood, are left exposed. Nothing is erased, sanded away, or rendered invisible. On a more philosophical level, this means that nothing Sachs makes is ever finished. Like any good engineering project, everything can always be stripped down, stripped out, redesigned and improved.

The reward for work is more work.

\--Mark van de Walle

</comment><comment><USER14> I found out about Tom Sachs because of Casey Neistat, as Casey worked for him when he first came to NYC. He was the biggest mentor to Casey, and if you ever watch Casey's Youtube video, you can see Tom's influence on everything, such as his studio setup and his "analog" video style. Ultimately, Tom Sach has had a great influence on Youtube, even though it was indirect. I believe Casey's brother, Van, still works for Tom.

</comment><comment><USER15> A must-see for those who loved this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFl31p89VCM&list=PL9DA5B1371...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFl31p89VCM&list=PL9DA5B137134D549B)

EDIT:

In case you need English translation:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCpbBVthD7o&list=PL2FC1B24C6...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCpbBVthD7o&list=PL2FC1B24C6302A7EB)

</comment><comment><USER16> Bullet 11) Forget all the compulsive controll freaks that are your bosses said in the video. Think like management- ask yourself, is it efficient, to clean up my workspace after me? Or could somebody else, somebody cheaper do it. Outsource all the stupid stuff.

Buellet 12) Remove that idiotic video from youtube.

</comment><comment><USER6> I'm surprised at the backlash I see here. Doesn't your eye start twitching if someone used the wrong number of spaces in a source file? This is coding style for the physical world. This is far less oppressive than any "SCRUM" I've had to deal with (or whatever the latest trendy name for XP is).

It's easy to see shop rules as overly controlling, until you've had to work in a shop for a few weeks or months and seen things get completely out of control. It's no different than working on a software project. Non-programmers (and beginners) will try writing a 30-line program, without knowing any of the best-practice conventions that experienced programmers know about. Then they post their mess on StackOverflow to get help. What's the first comment? Always: "We can't read this. Fix your indentation! Fix your capitalization! Remove those unused variables!" In other words, knoll that source code.

</comment><comment><USER17> _Discipline of Do Easy_ by Gus Van Sant (video adaptation of William Burroughs) is somewhat similar and definitely amazing:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoOUBETTyMI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoOUBETTyMI)

</comment><comment><USER18> I feel exausted just watching this, not sure it makes the point it is trying to. Now I just feel like I am watching someones therapy session.

</comment><comment><USER19> That was probably the weakest soldering joint I've ever seen. It was very funny to me though, so perhaps they were going for irony?

</comment><comment><USER20> I can't tell if that's put up as parody or not.

Either way, whatever point is intended, it doesn't justify the video length.

</comment><comment><USER21> Right things explained by a myopic cretin. Wouldn't be surprised to find out that Corbusier was like that.

</comment><comment><USER22> When it comes to "educational workspace videos" nothing will ever beat Staplerfahrer Klaus.

<comment><USER23> this is amazing, thank you

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> What did I just watch...

</comment><comment><USER25> I absolutely hate self-important studio people who have idiotic ideas on space management and tool usage, especially if the space is not theirs.

And that soldering job was weak.

The aesthetics of the video are cool, though, and the ideas are okay, though presented in an extremely patronising way.

A comment on the video put it nicely:

>I think Ave pranked us all. My eyes are twitching I'm so triggered by this;-) A great example of the kind of person you never want to work for. Someone who's utterly concerned with trivialities of HOW things are done instead of the reasons you're actually in business. Someone who can't see past their own way of negotiating the world, imposing their own way of doing things on their staff. I can assure you, being told what to do and how to do it are two different things. HR nonsense aside, I'd last 10 mins working for someone this short sighted. The end result is the goal. How you get there is irrelevant, beyond following some basic safety protocols. And cats should be at home.. litter boxes stink.

<comment><USER26> I think you're being too dismissive of the value of setting expectations about how work is done. I'll try to make it relatable for software folks...

I've developed software in places where we:

* had coding style guides

* promoted many compiler Warnings to Errors

* worked off of Bug and Feature lists, not just going off coding

* had to document all changes (for the FDA) in a certain way

* were expected to keep Continuous Integration tests running

* were expected to write unit tests as much as possible, and have very high code coverage

* attempted to do Test-Driven Development for most work (because it was the best way to make sure our code was testable [see "Working Effectively With Legacy Code" by Michael C. Feathers for inspiration)

* had a strict process for handling customer feedback, to ensure we triaged it appropriately

* had to lock our workstations when we stepped away (Sarbanes–Oxley)

* had a code review process for submitting changes

* had a design review process for larger changes (especially including adopting new tools)

* used a very restricted set of programming languages for any new work, even for small tools and one-offs

* followed SCRUM (daily stand-ups, story points, etc.)

* used Objectives and Key Results to plan our work

* had a process to discuss changing any of these

* all used one tool to manage our calendar (even for personal time blocks that didn't impact anyone else)

* all used one messaging tool

Every single one of those is an example of being told how to do my work. And they all existed to set expectations about how I was supposed to interact with my teammates. Whose responsibility was it to do things, how do we keep track of the things, how do we make decisions, how do we stay out of each others' way, how do we avoid unnecessary interruptions.

I've heard someone express the phrase, "We don't do that here." What was meant by it is, don't get dragged down into a discussion about whether something is right or wrong. We have a culture. There are rules. We follow them. (And there's the door, if you don't like it.)

<comment><USER27> To be honest everything on that list sounds good to me as each was decently implemented.

At that level you are much more engineering than throwing stuff over the wall and running away.

I wish the system I inherited was structured that way!.

I got the code.

No comments, no tests, no test environment, no documentation, no history and the code is hilarious.

At that point your job is archaeology not engineering.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Maybe I'm getting old, but was youtube always this annoying with ads? I had 2 clips just now, 2.5 minutes together, and none of them were marked as advertisement. I did'nt even realize it was advertisement until the first clip was half way through. And I still don't know what it tried to sell. WTF!??</comment>


Ask HN: does an Expanding Desktop exist? - <AUTHOR>

I imagine something that you open windows in, arrange however you want, and then you can slide left and right, up and down, and maybe even zoom out and in. Os X has discrete spaces, i want something that would be the equivalent of laying a bunch pieces of paper on an infinite (real) desktop, and moving your head around to focus on one area. Does a UI like this exist? <comment><USER2> X11 has (had?) a virtual desktop setting that you could make larger than your monitor and either share between different monitors or scroll around using a single monitor.

</comment><comment><USER3> Like this?

[http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/get-infinite- scrol...](http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/get-infinite-scroll-on- windows-desktop-with-windowslider/)</comment>


Molecular oxygen in comet's atmosphere not created on its surface - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2018-07-molecular-oxygen-comet-atmosphere-surface.html <comment><USER2> Fascinating! Last Friday I was closing some curtains on a full (ish) bright moon, my other half asked what the star beside it was. I told her it was Jupiter. She then asked what the very dim star beside Jupiter was... I didn't know so I opened the "Star Walk" iOS app to find out. It was 67P/Churyumov- Gerasimenko! We couldn't believe we could see it with the naked eye in a major city. Quite surreal to think that something mankind made is sitting on it...

<comment><USER3> Whatever star you saw, it was not the comet. You would have an easier time squinting and seeing the streptococcus on your teeth in the mirror than you would see the comet. The bacteria are both larger (angular diameter) and higher contrast against the background.

You saw another star, in the same general direction of the comet. But it's cool knowing in what direction that comet is, with our little robot on it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I really like the educative style of the article. It explains things assuming almost no level of pre-knowledge. I'd wish more scientific articles were written like this.

<comment><USER5> The author also has a podcast, [http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/h.dunning](http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/h.dunning)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I could swear Asimov (or someone else) hypothetized that finding oxygen in a planets atmosphere would indicate the presence of life. Oxygen reacts so readily with other things that there would have to be a "someone" producing it. Guess he was wrong. I wonder what would suggest life if found in an atmosphere.

<comment><USER7> > _The new analysis is consistent with team 's original conclusion, that > molecular oxygen is most likely primordial._

This does not prove that theory wrong. On the surface of an earthlike planet there would be plenty of reactive material to turn in to oxides. On the surface of the comet, that wouldn't necessarily be the case.

<comment><USER6> Really good point. Comets wouldn't typically have volcanic activity, enough gravity to generate an atmosphere, nor much energy from the sun.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Has the spectrumm of individuaal shooting stars been measured? Do we know their distribution of compositions?

<comment><USER9> First of all, a shooting star is a meteor, not a comet. So we can do better, we can recover individual meteorites themselves.

A comet looks stationary in the sky when you see one, only moving noticeably day by day, like a fast planet.

<comment><USER8> I knew a comet is not a meteorite, I just had the question lingering around in my head and was waiting for a tangentially related topic to pop up on HN, in the hopes that someone who knows would answer if or if not ever the spectrum of a shooting star aerobraking had been measured.

I ask because the composition of what remains lumped together, and the actual physical finds of remains may not be representative of the bulk mass originally entering the atmosphere.

So has distribution of optical spectra of shooting stars been measured? (this seems hard to me because one would need accurate tracking before it enters in order to aim the telescope+spectrometer in the right direction for the short duration it passes the atmosphere)

The reason I ask is because I have an idea on how to try detecting very faint objects, which may nevertheless be dangerous as rare impacts, or valuable if it turns out the material would be valuable in bulk before it evaporates in the atmosphere..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Didn't know comets have atmosphere.

<comment><USER11> aka Coma</comment></comment>


The Chromebook Pixel (2015) Review - <AUTHOR> http://www.anandtech.com/show/9082/the-chromebook-pixel-2015-review <comment><USER2> I get the feeling that these Chromebook Pixels aren't made for the public. My theory is that they're the result of an internal Google compromise between ChromeOS managers who want their team to dog food Chromebooks and ChromeOS developers who replied "Get me a compromise free, top of the line chormebook, and I might consider it". The only real customers they care about are Google developers and they don't care about price.

<comment><USER3> Inside Google in 2013 the Pixels were very popular, across the company. I base this on seeing what people carried around.

For the general public, I think that the Pixel is just a little too expensive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The Pixel is probably a little bit like an overpowered Nexus line:

1) Set a high standard for build quality and all for all the other Chromebooks.

2) Create a consumer perception that Chromebooks can be high quality devices of substantial value

3) Create a powerful playground for testing with heavy Chrome apps & getting native Android apps to work on ChromeOS and other such features that will come to the cheaper Chromebooks a year later.

All leading to the $300 Chromebooks feeling like high-quality bargains with ever increasing functionality.

Beyond that, the device seems ridiculous unless you put a different OS on, you're either better off with a cheaper Chromebook, or an equally pricy Windows Laptop (e.g. Dell XPS 2015) or Macbook. So I really think the Pixel is more of a strategic asset (see above) than something meant to be a popular revenue generating consumer device in and of itself.

</comment><comment><USER5> I wish Google had an official way of putting a Linux distribution on these machines. I know they want people working in Chrome OS but for me it just isn't enough.

If I could buy the Pixel and have an official way of putting Debian or something on it to make it a proper laptop I probably would buy one. I love the design, the specs are very decent and the display is beautiful.

<comment><USER6> There is an official way. Turn on developer mode, open a shell, run "sudo crossystem dev_boot_legacy=1", then reboot and hit ctrl-L to boot a PC BIOS (SeaBIOS) that can install Linux. Then install and run any Linux distribution you like.

<comment><USER7> I guess this is different from running crouton? just curious, if what you say is possible, then why bother using crouton? for not wiping ChromeOS?

<comment><USER6> Right. Crouton lets you run Linux in a chroot under Chrome OS. This lets you completely replace Chrome OS with your Linux distribution of choice. Both make sense depending on what you're trying to do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> My only question: can you physically have a 512Gb ssd inside that thing? Anything else is irrelevant to me. The previous Chromebook pixel had the mini PCIe port used by the WWAN modem wired with only the USB lines, meaning you couldn't do that: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0_u8bjQFzg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0_u8bjQFzg)

I won't buy a chromebook pixel until I can at least get a decent storage. It doesn't have to be sold with this storage. The motherboard just needs the right tracks to the mini PCIe and mSATA support so that I can do it. Google might have saved 2 cents, but won't be getting a dollar from me and other people from this thread who say "this laptop would be absolutely perfect for me if it had more storage"

<comment><USER9> > * It's likely that it's still soldered to the motherboard which makes > replacing or upgrading it impossible. Given that the Pixel can only be > disassembled using suction cups and a great deal of force I'm not able to > actually look inside to check. *

So it seems this "review" didn't even attempt to open up the laptop to check out the motherboard. Disappointing.

<comment><USER10> That's how reviews usually work. They evaluate a product to see if it does what it's supposed to do. They don't tear it apart and attempt to to repurpose it for some other use entirely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's really irritating that:

* It's difficult to open/service so you can't flip the switch which allows flashing Coreboot that easily

* You can't upgrade it's minimal storage, and there's no LTE

* The keyboard is non-standard: no super key (great for WM) and no dedicated home/end

<comment><USER12> You can actually upgrade the storage quite easily with an SD card.

<comment><USER13> Would this be fast enough though?

I'm not too familiar with hardware constraints but I remember when people were comparing microSDs on phones vs built in storage one of the big issues was that the speed on microSDs was way worse.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, and in this case it seems it has a USB 2.0 connection?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The battery life is great, but the thing that worries me about all non-Apple laptops with sealed batteries is the lack of an official battery service. If I buy an Apple laptop, I know that for $130-200, they'll swap out the battery pack once it's capacity goes down. That does wonders for resale value. What's the story with the original Pixel?

<comment><USER15> If that is your only reason for selecting an apple produce over something else, then that's just a little naive.

<comment><USER16> Thinking about the problems you will have with something you buy is naive? Considering a wide variety of parts on a laptop are proprietary I think serviceability and turn around time are big considerations.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've said it before and this review really cements my view - this laptop would be absolutely perfect for me if it had more storage.

</comment><comment><USER18> I just ordered the LS model because it's what I wanted the new MacBook to be. Good build quality, decent processor, 12", HiDPI display, more than one port, and 12 hours of battery life. I fully intend to install ubuntu the second I get it and boot off that for the life of the machine. My hope is that for everything but vector/raster editing it can replace my 15" MacBook Pro for daily Python dev work.

</comment><comment><USER19> $1299 for 64gb ssd ? I wish it had atleast 500gb ssd :(

<comment><USER20> This! Yes, it is a "netbook," but 64gb is becoming my minimum requirement for a mobile phone. Even a 128gb option would be appreciated.

<comment><USER21> Genuinely curious. How do you occupy all of that space on a phone? I've had my 8GB nexus 4 for almost two years, and I'm just now hitting space limitations.

<comment><USER20> Mostly photos and videos of my kids and their activities and whatnot. I do auto-backup all of it, but I like having it local on the device. Music and other media/content I try to keep and access solely from the cloud, but I like having all the personal media locally. I've been using a 32GB Moto X for a little over a year and am already getting close to the limit. I would imagine as these devices become more and more of a primary computing device for people, the space will be easier to fill up too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Does anyone know if they fixed the bug in the original Pixel where if the battery died (or just got too low!) it'd lose the dev mode setting?

That was my main complaint with the original Pixel - I was running Debian on it as my main machine, but after that happening for the 5th time at a conference and having to reinstall...

<comment><USER23> Replying a bit late, so hopefully you see this.

That's not so much a bug but a known issue. The flag that you set at the command line to enable SeaBIOS is held in RAM. Which means if you lose power, that goes back to default.

To get around this, you need to disable the write-protect screw inside the device. Take a look at [https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer- information-f...](https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/developer-information- for-chrome-os-devices/chromebook-pixel) for instructions on how to do this, and where the screw is.

After that, you can modify the firmware, and update the setting in NVRAM. Take a look at the Arch Chromebook wiki for the commands to use to do what you want. [https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chrome_OS_devices#Boot_...](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chrome_OS_devices#Boot_to_SeaBIOS_by_default)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> The Pixel is weird. It'd be a nice laptop if it had a decent amount of storage (I'd be fine with 128GB - My MBA has that much and it can hold every personal project I've ever had, plus my entire music collection - but some would prefer 256 of 512), and a proper keyboard layout (no Super? no Caps Lock?!).

But without those things, it's an overpriced netbook with a CPU far too powerful.

</comment><comment><USER25> Google needs to develop and release their own IDE. I shouldn't need to mess around with the terminal on what is supposed to be a developer's notebook. Android, Java, Chrome/web apps, Go etc, if Google is serious about winning developer mindshare from Apple then creating the proper tools is necessary

<comment><USER26>
        > I shouldn't need to mess around with the terminal on what is supposed to
        > be a developer's notebook

Really? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Still, I _might_ feel your pain. If I have to mess around with crouton to install linux on one of these devices I would not call it a developer's notebook. Which is a pity, given the ThinkPad line is almost dead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I am in the market for a Linux developer's laptop. It looks like the System76 laptops have this beat.

Gazelle Professional: 15.6" matte display 2.8 Ghz quad core i7 16 GB RAM 250 GB SSD Wireless AC Price as configured above: $1477

The Pixel might have it beat in weight and battery life, but that's about it.

</comment><comment><USER28> Really like the new Pixel and see great potential in it.

My only wish is that the display was slightly wider. Not necessarily 16:9. 3:2 is too much squarish for me :P I do understand vertical scrolling and all but it's just my personal preference, I guess. And also, 128 GB storage would perfect :)

</comment><comment><USER29> tl;dr last line of article: "I really like the Chromebook Pixel, but I personally just couldn't justify buying it."

</comment><comment><USER30> The real review here seems to be by BittenRottenApple in the comments, rather than the actual anandtech article. In particular I think this part sums up the main issue I have with the Chromebook Pixel:

 _The entire conceit of Chrome OS is that it 's sort of a diet computer. It does the basics, and just the basics. Chrome OS will give you internet, basic word processing through Google Docs, video via YouTube, and the rest of Google's web services including a free as in freedom lifetime direct hotlink to the NSA. You can stick in Chrome extensions for added "apps" if you'd like, possibly even a future NSA all inclusive backup app. But you're not going to get any full software here, because Chrome OS isn't compatible with anything outside of itself. And that's been OK, because Chrome OS laptops have been very cheap: a few hundred bucks for the essentials is a good deal. Thirteen hundred dollars for those same essentials is a very, very, hugely, wow-bad deal._

I have an ASUS C200, and because lately I have a need for a word processor and browser on the go, I love it despite its limitations. It's cheap and light and has insanely good battery life with an operating system that stays out of the way. I emphatically don't feel a desire to go out and buy a >$1000 chromebook, though (if I bought the pixel I would probably go and replace the OS with linux, whereas on my C200 I haven't even bothered to install a linux chroot).

<comment><USER31> You don't need to replace the OS with linux, it is already linux based. If you enable developer mode you can get to the terminal, and if your linux-foo is strong that should be all you need (and you'll still be able to use ChromeOS).

This is what made my (free) Cr-48 awesome. Does it make the (expensive) Chromebook Pixel awesome? I don't know.

<comment><USER32> Technically, yes, but not in the way the parent meant. Getting access to a few GNU tools is not the same thing as a real fully-featured desktop and software repositories.

That's before mentioning proper support for closed-source x86 applications. Most developers target Ubuntu, not ChromeOS.

<comment> iso8859-1 Official Docker support in ChromeOS would be awesome. Most applications also work in dockerized Ubuntu.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: My brother wrote this program from jail - <AUTHOR> Hi HN!,
My brother got a 5 years jail sentence but is coming out soon, a few months ago he decided to learn to code with no prior experience.
I find the way he is studying very inspirational so decided to post his (simple) program.
But first, here is what he needs to go through to learn:
- We the family send him javascript and html books - He studies them and writes programs in pen and paper - He calls me so I input what he wrote on my computer and we debug it live via a phone call, he has to imagine the program in his head.
The crazy part is up until a few days ago he didn't have access to a computer.
However! another inmate has an upcoming trial and because the contents of his trial contain to many papers, they provided this inmate with a simple laptop (no internet).
My brother is not allowed to touch this laptop and he can only see this inmate 1 hour a day, so he convinced the inmate to sit next to him for my brother to tell him what to type, the other inmate types in the html+js on a notepad file and this way my brother can finally see his programs on a screen after months of only imagining how to program.
Here is the program we wrote today:
https://codepen.io/throwaway0944/pen/dyMpqJq
My dream is for this to get some traction so when he calls I can tell him his program has users :) <comment><USER2> Another user here, tell him to keep it up. I wish him and yourselves all the best.

</comment><comment><USER3> The dedication here is unmatched. Not only it's novice having to write programs on his head with no feedback but also all the hassle there is to run and debug these programs.

Just want to say I hope your brother can keep on this track, he looks on the way to success.

</comment><comment><USER4> Good on your brother - hope it helps after his release. It'd probably be an interesting read if you helped him set up a blog about his self-education whilst incarcerated!

</comment><comment><USER5> Regardless if the program works or not, the effort deserves all the props, in my book. Your brother just won the internet for the day. Well done.

</comment><comment><USER6> It seems buggy, typed numbers a = 18014398509481984, b = 1, and c = 1 and getting result "the sum of all inputs is 18014398509481984"

<comment><USER7> I wouldn't say buggy, and definitely not to a beginner writing a program like this.

What you're seeing is a limitation of javascript. Big numbers need to use BigInt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Well, I did put 3 numbers in each one of these 3 text fields.

Clicked on button "Get Result".

The program gave me the sum of all values.

Job well done!

</comment><comment><USER9> I tried and it worked great. My well wishes to your family

</comment><comment><USER10> Can tell him he had 1 more user ;)

</comment><comment> temp-account Made HN account just to comment at this post. Mad respect for your brother. I wish health to your family.

</comment><comment><USER11> Tell him to be proud.</comment>


Data and Insights from a Month on Steam - <AUTHOR> https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JoshGe/20171128/310491/Data_and_Insights_from_a_Month_on_Steam.php <comment><USER2> I got Cogmind in alpha. Awesome game but then I played actual rogue in the day :) I am very grateful for how open the dev is on tigsource, watching this launch is a treasure trove of info.

It's clear this game has been assembled with love and grit over years of dev time. I was super interested in how it does financially, given how niche it is.

Ultimately it's OK. It's not what could be earned elsewhere for the level of skill on display, BUT enough to bankroll development of a more fun endevour than writing CRUD apps. So I think it's a win overall.

The explosions are amazing.

Devlog on tigsource [https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=36249.0](https://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=36249.0)

</comment><comment><USER3> Although I did not play Cogmind (no native Linux version), I followed the development very closely over at r/roguelikedev. The developer (Josh Le) is one of the main content contributors in this sub-reddit.</comment>


United CEO refused to do an interview about how bad coach seats are - <AUTHOR> https://jalopnik.com/united-ceo-refused-to-sit-coach-for-an-interview-about-1827837046 <comment><USER2> I'm pretty tall and I've never had any issues flying economy. I wouldn't call it comfortable but I can still stuff a bag under the next seat and reach it later.

<comment><USER3> I find it to be quite difficult to reach a bag stowed under the seat in front of me without shoving my face in the lap of the person sitting next to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> A CEO doesn't have to sit in coach. Less affluent folk cannot afford to sit in 1st class.

The way to complain about this service, is to not use the service.

<comment><USER5> Flying is not strictly necessary to live but is deeply ingrained into the "standard" lifestyle in the same way as, say, the internet or industrialized food products. In my opinion, such society-critical goods and services need to be legislated because it is nearly impossible to organize an effective mass boycott of them.</comment></comment>


Trump transition team now lacks cyber security expertise - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2016/11/16/trump-transition-team-now-lacks-cyber-security-expertise/ <comment><USER2> "President-elect Donald Trump's transition team has not announced a point person dedicated to cyber security policy or staffing in his administration, "

I don't remember Obama doing that either. Wait.. I remember this. "President Barack Obama is asking Congress to devote $19 billion to cybersecurity and is issuing new executive orders geared at the protection "

And from what I can tell, this guy is still sitting right where he is.

[https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/author/michael- daniel](https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/author/michael-daniel)

So what is Venture beat even talking about?

</comment><comment><USER3> Peter Thiel and Palantir.

<comment><USER4> I think the media has decided (a few weeks ago he was gay-excommunicated) to flush him down the memory hole altogether, that and the video floating about of Trump screwing around with Rudy Giuliani in drag.</comment></comment>


Scientists discover molecular difference between male and female brains - <AUTHOR> http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2015/08/scientists-uncover-a-difference-between-the-sexes.html <comment><USER2> "The importance of studying sex differences in the brain is about making biology and medicine relevant to everyone, to both men and women," said Catherine S. Woolley, senior author of the study. "It is not about things such as who is better at reading a map or why more men than women choose to enter certain professions."

That is nonsense. Science is about knowledge, period. Real differences between the sexes should be understood and embraced - not ignored due to political correctness.

For instance, the US Marine Corps recent findings about females in combat roles shouldn't be swept under the rug.</comment>


Accounting in 2016 – Still a manual and tedious process - <AUTHOR> https://bjoernkw.com/2016/04/03/accounting-in-2016/ <comment><USER2> There is a reason why it all seems so oddly ancient. Rule number 1 - if its not broken then don't fix it. Not the usual hn mindset I know, but you only need to be involved in one bad transition between finance systems to know that it can be a huge shtstorm. Big enough to kill a company. That is why everyone is running ancient mainframe era tech and everything feels like its 10 year behind silicon valley mindset.

Its all good & well on a small business scale to DIY and integrate things hacker style but beyond that the actual accounting problems become big enough that you don't want the latest flashy gimmick adding potential unknowns. Its kinda like you don't run nightly builds on your production server.

As for the formats & integration - yeah not great. What you're looking for is essentially EDI, but there isn't a market for it on that scale. Its also still fairly fragmented so only works on an enterprise scale (i.e. BMW tell all its suppliers they are to use X standard).

Unfortunately in my experience (auditor) the more people try to hack together a solution the worse the end result. I've had to tell a CFO that all of their numbers from top to bottom are bad because they custom rolled a key component and the people that did so missed a subtle accounting nuance. Cost them a fortune to fix it. So yeah by all means go automate data transfer but please don't attempt to implement any actual accounting logic. Its like a airline pilot attempting surgery (or a surgeon flying an airliner). Neither even realises they're making a mistake until its too late.

<comment><USER3> It seems to me the bigger reason is that the best people to fix it are the ones with the biggest incentive not to.

<comment><USER2> > ones with the biggest incentive not to

Not really. The bank stuff (where they are REALLY still running ancient mainframes) is not changing because its a bureaucracy and they're super risk averse. And every year the conclusion is the same - limp along for another year. Plus there are cases where the tech is so old that its essentially a black box at this stage.

On the authors scale - they're are few people that have the necessary odd combination of skills (accounting & programming). And those that do don't spend their time writing SME software...they work on enterprise scale stuff.

As for no incentive to fix it - trust me nobody likes paper invoices. Not even bookkeepers. Everyone's life would be easier if there was a widely adopted standardized system in place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> There is a lot of "meta" money in the money system, accountants, CPAs, forensics, bankers, clerks, etc. So automating that away is nominally an existential threat to their businesses.

Some folks (like Quicken in the US) use automated download as a way to insure upgrades (they periodically make it impossible for previous versions to work any more so that you have to upgrade or lose the capability). I got sick of that and wrote a csv ingester in perl.

But business has been transacted, literally, for thousands of years and there is so much variety there. I don't expect full automation until we have even better cognitive tools which can dynamically adapt to what ever is needed.

So that leaves you with a patch work of things and not a lot of incentive to unify them. It reminds me of the CAD framework initiative where engineers tried to unify the sharing of CAD data, except the CAD vendors figured out that lead to less "stickyness"[1] and started working against it. Banks are no different, there is nothing to distinguish bank "A" from bank "B" with respect to holding on to your money.

Payments and invoices are a bit different, working with the vendor, if you are a B2B business you can often negotiate something if you are B2C you are in a stronger position to simply insist that your customers use your automation tools.

[1] This term has been used to describe tools and techniques that make it hard to switch from one provider to another, thus maximizing your "customer lifetime value" often at the detriment of the customer.

<comment><USER5> What's that quote again, "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"? CAD vendors might intentionally have designed "stickyness"[1] but banks and B2B transactions are pretty much standardized via EDI ANSI docs[2]. It's a legacy set of standardized protocols/documents that you have to deal with because DbC works badly, and corporate DbC works even worse when someone like SAP is influential in the decision process.

SAP has done a lot of bad things[3] but they pretty much standardized how business is done in most industries, whether you're a plastics injection molder in China, dealing oil out of Dubai, or the trader in Zurich making his fortune figuring out how to get that crude from Dubai and refined into some plastic polymer pellets to that Chinese plastics vendor (who'll sell those 50 cent widgets to you in a few months).

[1] We have the same thing in our industry, we just call it "vendor lock in". I sort of touched on how the "meta money" worse in fed contracts here ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10807858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10807858)). A CPA is basically a programmer maintaining legacy code (300 years of obscure tax code (they even call it the same thing)) feeding your input data (your quarter and/or years aggregate financial data) to produce output data (your 1040 or whatever). _Edit:_ Havoc basically captured the whole "legacy" reasoning (a mentality of "they'll remember my potential failed project a lot more than they'll remember my potential re-implementation that will only slowly (but very substantially) accrue profits" is always in the back of your mind. There's a lot of politics when you reach the decision-making level and risk aversion is a necessary skill to adopt to keep yourself out of hot water.

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X12_Document_List#Financial_Se...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X12_Document_List#Financial_Series_.28FIN.29) or variants there of. Even other ERP's FI & Controlling (or AP/AR) will have some sort of 'Connector" that will enable you to talk to SAP in _some_ fashion. You'll just be paying Epicor, Netsuite, or Oracle a few hundred k for the modules.

[3] Can't knock on it too much since I've profited directly from the convolution of SAP ECC 6, but I certainly I generated more value for the clients than I billed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> If anyone finds themselves in a similar position, writing MT940 files -- there's at least one open source Java library for doing so. See [http://api.prowidesoftware.com/core/com/prowidesoftware/swif...](http://api.prowidesoftware.com/core/com/prowidesoftware/swift/model/mt/mt9xx/MT940.html) and its source at [http://prowide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pw-swift- fields/src/...](http://prowide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pw-swift- fields/src/com/prowidesoftware/swift/model/mt/mt9xx/MT940.java) (LGPL) as well as further examples at [https://github.com/prowide/prowide-core- examples](https://github.com/prowide/prowide-core-examples)

First time hearing about MT940 and SWIFT message format. As a Canadian, I'm used to seeing QBX/OBX/CSV as import/export formats (thanks to QuickBooks and Microsoft Money), and every accounting package I've worked with allows for CSV import though it's not quite as nice about it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks very much for the link. I'll have a look at it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Strictly speaking, this is _book keeping_ , which is the on-ramp to accounting proper.

The bulk of accounting, as I understand it, is not the relatively simple updating two accounts in a single transaction on a ledger.

It's deciding _which_ accounts. _Which_ ledger. And making a case for _why_.

Because the flipside of accounting is management accounting: those famous reports (income report, cashflow report, balance sheet) which markets and governments take such a close and legally meaningful interest in.

<comment><USER8> This is all correct except that financial accounting deals with external reporting and managerial accounting deals with internal reporting. But the distinction between bookkeeping and accounting is spot on IMO.

<comment><USER7> Thanks. In my understanding, managerial 101 more or less starts where financial 101 leaves off. Does that sound right?

<comment><USER9> Pretty much, yeah. Managerial 101 builds on introductory financial reporting. The biggest difference between them are the intended users. While financial accounting is all about accurately stating your financial position for tax authorities, capital markets, banks, and other potential users, managerial accounting is internal. It's for managers and decision makers to give them the most accurate information possible. Because of this, there is no consistent standard used in managerial accounting like there is in financial accounting (GAAP or IFRS), but its largely similar I believe between different companies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Odoo Accounting has nearly everything the OP wants:

\- full API: [https://www.odoo.com/documentation/9.0/api_integration.html](https://www.odoo.com/documentation/9.0/api_integration.html) \- direct integration with 24.000 banks for statements \- for non supported banks, has it supports bank formats, including cmat.053 in germany \- automate payments with SEPA (in Europe, or checks in U.S.) \- automate invoicing and follow-ups of payment by email or regular mail (docsaway integration) \- it supports Germany (SKR04)

It's 100% free, unlimited users on the cloud: [https://www.odoo.com/page/accounting](https://www.odoo.com/page/accounting)

Odoo Community is open source: it includes most accounting features but not the payments and bank interfaces.

disclaimer: I am the founder of Odoo

<comment><USER11> If your users aren't paying you, who is?

<comment><USER10> Odoo has hundreds of business apps. Our cloud offer is free for one app. So, if you only use accounting it's free, but if you need more application: eCommerce, point of sale, inventory, etc. then you have to pay.

That's for the cloud offer, but you can also download Odoo.

We are mostly open source ([https://github.com/odoo/odoo](https://github.com/odoo/odoo)) but have an open core business model for on premise installations with a bit more features in Odoo Enterprise.

The offer is explained here: [https://odoo.com/pricing](https://odoo.com/pricing) (although I am not sure this page is clear; we are still thinking about how to improve it)

<comment><USER12> The pricing page is quite clear. But the pricing calculator linked, [https://www.odoo.com/pricing-online](https://www.odoo.com/pricing-online) does not seem to include the cloud offer you mention?

From there it looks like one needs to pay a base cost of €20,- / month / user before selecting apps. Then, the calculator doesn't make me have the first app for free. What's more, I can't select accounting (€20,- / month) without also selecting invoicing (€10,- / month). So if I'd want an install with only accounting, instead of it being for free, it looks like it costs at least €50/month?

<comment><USER10> Yes, we have to improve that. One app is always free (including all its dependencies), we will improve the pricing calculator.

<comment><USER10> > Cool. So will there have to be a paying user or will the first user be free > as well?

No, it's really free. Since the first user.

> Also, since the apps have different prices, will it be > the cheapest or the > most expensive app that comes for free?

You always start with one app, this one is free and also it dependencies. So, whatever you start with, it's free. (e.g. you get accounting+invoicing for free)

But if you want one app more (e.g. inventory), then you have to pay for all apps / users. It's not "one app free", it's a "free for one app" plan.

But if you want expense management as well, you will have to pay for everything. (use vendor bills which are in accounting app, instead of expenses, so that you stay in the free plan)

Thanks, for the feedback, we really need to improve the pricing page...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Part of the author's problem is that he's in Germany: a country in love with paper trails. You can't change your phone plan without writing a letter of request (not joking). Taxes require a level of documentation that in North America is only needed for an audit. No joke, MT personal and business tax return is a thick binder full of paper every year. The only solution is to pay a tax lawyer to prepare it for you.

Yes, there's a whole field of law that's just for filling out tax forms. And it's an enormous industry here.

Incidentally, the complexity is maintained by the tax lawyer lobby. There have been a few proposals to simplify the tax code, but it's hard to do when a third of the civil service and the single largest legal profession in the country oppose the idea.

<comment><USER14> Xero lets you upload files so they are attached to invoices etc., and when yo send invoices you can elect to send the paperwork too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Björn, nice read! Your description of the current state of accounting in Europe is very accurate. As a founder of an online accounting tool, I know a lot about the struggles you are having. The difference is: it's my job to improve the lives of entrepreneurs and solve the problems you mention. This doesn't make it less of a challenge though, I feel a lot of the same pain you are feeling!

The first steps for a automated accounting are already in place:

1\. In Holland we are working towards a standard for exchanging invoice information based on the Universal Business Language XML standard. Both the market and the government are supporting SimplerInvoicing, the first invoices are already being exchanged at this time.

2\. The European Union has introduced new regulations concerning your banking data. Within a few years, all European banks need to comply with PSD2, which means all your data should be accessible through an API. Unfortunately the banks in Holland are not very fast. Sometimes starting your own bank seems like the fastest solution to enable technical innovation, but the regulations in de European Union for starting a bank are even worse.

There are many more steps to make, but I strongly believe small startups like my own (MoneyBird) can make a change. Can't wait to see what the future of accounting brings us!

</comment><comment><USER16> Have you tried a human being as a solution? Software in the finance industry is growing exponentially, yet people are super confused - like confusing accounting with book keeping. What if you could outsource all your book keeping, accounting and reporting services to a serious firm for some dollars a month?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's the usual approach and yes: I've tried it. Finding a good accountant who's up to that kind of task, responsive and not afraid of using modern software, is surprisingly difficult.

There are new entrants to the market such as Felix1 in Germany or Crunch in the UK though that promise this exact service.

Your suggestion certainly is a good one but I'm still wondering why accounting and book keeping requires so much human-machine interaction. I'm not talking about handling edge cases, exceptions or conflict resolution, things you need a human being for. You shouldn't need an accounting firm for entering incoming invoices or synchronizing your bank account statements.

<comment><USER16> Agreed, but I am going to guess that the biggest problem is not the human- machine interaction, but all the hedge cases that eventually happen and require a human to make a decision. Also, consider that an outsourced analyst will probably be cheaper than building and maintaining a full fledged software solution. What you need is a good accountant who is managing few analysts so that he can intervene only when needed, saving you lots of $$ that you would spend just to have him do book keeping.

Also, a human should advise and help you to move to another bank, one that has better interfaces with modern software solutions (like the one you use or Quickbooks or the many other around).

I tell you from my experience working in finance that you will never manage bank reconciliations automatically 100%.

<comment><USER17> >I tell you from my experience working in finance that you will never ...

Famous last words. As long as you define 100% to be residual errors at human level.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "Why do many companies even seem to insist on paper invoices that add the additional nuisances of having to scan and file those documents?"

It's called Cashflow management. Maybe you're in a high margin high profit business. But the other 95% of all business owners are in a brutal competition for Cashflow. That means make paying out as hard as possible.

<comment><USER19> I work for a university, and they're pretty big on paper receipts for expenses, as well as money incoming. It's more about auditability, I think. To be able to say to the IRS, shareholders, the government and even internal management that the money spent in transaction ad9c538e was spent buying servers, and that five years ago those same servers were fully depreciated and sent off for ewaste / recycing, and here's the documentation to prove it.

Otherwise, you're potentially taking too much depreciation, opening the door to employee theft, and making managerial decisions based on poor data. Paper / letterhead is some kind of proof that can be followed up with. Even if an employee fakes a purchase, does Dell have a record of purchase order #2023420? They don't?

An electronic version of this stuff would be fairly useful, but is sort of a collective action problem: if vendors offers API nobody uses, was it worth the effort? How do you handle N vendors offering N different APIs? And how do they upgrade when they interact with hundreds of clients?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> You can't automate exceptions and mistakes, which is what most companies spend a lot of time with. Also the industry has decades of proprietary crap build into it.

This is certainly one area the tech sector can tackle (maybe with smart contracts) but it's years away and requires a lot of effort in the financial space.

</comment><comment><USER21> He's right.

This has been my main interest for over a decade. I started down the rabbit hole after doing my books by hand throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s and hiring CPAs who strangely never asked any questions. I built a web-based accounting program to automate what I was doing in Excel, and eventually, my corporate taxes. Everything seemed to hinge on the availability of line item data; but getting line item data hinged on the payment processors allowing it to be transmitted and stored. That functionality still doesn't exist today in ACH or payment card formats.

So, being an entrepreneur, I set out to build a new network that would support the functionality, as well as better security features. And I did. But then the California Money Transmission Act intervened thanks to financial lobbyist Ezra Levine and his client, The Money Services Round Table; no other startups or VCs wanted to take on the issue in a coalition; and the California government wouldn't budge. So I sued the State ([http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/8l0ickx4/california- norther...](http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/8l0ickx4/california-northern- district-court/think-computer-corp-v-venchiarutti-et-al/)), and the judge was apparently so hopelessly confused that he sat on the State's motion to dismiss longer than any other non-stayed motion in Northern District of California history: about four years.

I lobbied in Sacramento in the meantime and got the law changed twice, to the point where it's essentially moot, but there's still 46 others, and via 18 U.S.C. § 1960 it's a federal crime to violate any state money transmission law.

While all of this has been going on, the big players have skillfully ignored the line item data problem and instead attempted to deploy EMV nationwide in the United States at the cost of billions of dollars. But there's no PIN functionality yet, just chips, which are hardly supported uniformly as many vendors balk at "certification" fees for technology that's already outdated relative to smartphones. And startups and their funders, including Y Combinator, have been in a race to see who can ignore (break) the most laws fastest, which has given regulators an excuse to claim that no one has come to them with real concerns.

Last Thursday the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC) put out a much-heralded white paper that, between the buzzwords, suggests it might be interested in addressing the outdated regulatory gridlock. See [http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/news-releases/2016/nr- occ-...](http://www.occ.gov/news-issuances/news-releases/2016/nr- occ-2016-39.html). Comments are due in May. For now, I've written more detailed thoughts here:

[http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/20131118.hsgacstatemen...](http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/20131118.hsgacstatement.pdf)

And all I wanted were my line items.

<comment><USER22> So, I get that they're not giving you line items. What I don't get is _why_? Is there some competitive advantage or whatever that's causing the big players to lobby the government to prevent it?

It seems to me that, at some level, everyone already "has" their line items—just not in a convenient form, i.e. paper (or email) receipts.

Is there cost involved in getting them to people? Standardization? Legacy systems/formats/whatever in the way?

Thanks for your writeup by the way, I'm also in CA and learned a lot.

<comment><USER21> Legacy systems that are totally inflexible is the main problem. Much of this stuff was developed in the mid-1960s. Upgrades and standardization are not considered a "profit center" for an already very profitable industry, and the costs would be enormous. The EMV rollout has cost tens of billions and it doesn't even touch the formats.

<comment><USER22> Okay, so basically it'll require legislation at this point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> The OP uses the term "accounting" but really talks about just bookkeeping.

</comment><comment><USER24> I haven't seen ledger.cli mentioned yet in this thread: it's a command line accounting tool that's fully text based, which allows a programmer to easily add little scripts to parse weird MT940 / CSV files and allows you to use all the comforts of git in your workflow. Pretty steep learning curve if you don't know accounting well, but incredibly powerful once you have all your accounting chores automated away.

[http://ledger-cli.org](http://ledger-cli.org)

</comment><comment><USER25> Anyone here that would be interested in a book-keeping as an API service?</comment>


BlueHost Down – costing $1,400,000 per hour for lost clients business globally - <AUTHOR>

Enter your rage here! <comment><AUTHOR> No ETA No updates Bullshit responses Live chat down Telephone system down</comment>


Why are companies paying bounce exchange $4k/m for a modal? - <AUTHOR>

http://www.bounceexchange.com/?#pricing<p>I'm seeing their exit intent modal more and more often. <comment><AUTHOR> Okay so i've done some research and it looks like it's because they have a patent on the detection of exit intent? [http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20140222502](http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20140222502)

</comment><comment><USER2> I've wondered how many people actually pay that amount, too. Perhaps they go after larger organizations where a few thousand is a small price to pay for a solution, regardless of how simple it may be.</comment>


Programmers Must Take Vitamin D - <AUTHOR> http://e2open.org/programmers-need-to-take-vitamin-d/ <comment><USER4> That is doctoring on the symptom, not the cause. Go outside. You do not only need Vitamin D, you also need fresh air, green and exercise. You can not get this with pills. In the long run you save time, because of longer life (and hacking) and reduced illness (better hacking).

<comment><USER5> I thought it was funny that this blog post didn't mention getting outside as a potential solution. That said, it's not like it's a dichotomy: I take a daily vitamin D supplement, try to eat as much catfish and salmon as I can, and try to get out in the sun as much as possible.

That said, getting out in the sun is a fairly nuanced debate. Most dermatologists will tell you not to, because of the risk of skin cancer, and because of the lack of peer-reviewed research showing that the benefits of skin-based vitamin D production outweigh the potential for skin cancer:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/science/sunscreens-and- vit...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/science/sunscreens-and- vitamin-d.html)

Wearing sunscreen will inhibit vitamin D production, so getting some sun while wearing high-SPF sunscreen is not going to help you as much as unprotected exposure (per the dermatologist in the aforementioned article)

So the question becomes: do you believe the "vitamin D hypothesis" that vitamin D deficiency was the driving force behind the evolution of human skin color? The hypothesis is that northern Europeans evolved lower melanin levels in their skin through a combination of high latitudes and a diet deficient in natural sources of vitamin D:

[http://anthrogenetics.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/a-support- for...](http://anthrogenetics.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/a-support-for-vitamin- d-hypothesis-of-skin-color-evolution-a-correlation-between-african-genetic- ancestry-and-blood-vitamin-d-concentration/)

So the question of whether you should go out in the sun (unprotected) in order to generate vitamin D becomes a question of whether you are more worried about the potential health complications of vitamin D deficiency or skin cancer.

Choose wisely!

<comment><USER6> Just an observation: there are certain time intervals in a day that you CAN get some sun exposure without worring (too much) about UV rays & skin cancer. I do not know about the rest of the world, but in tropical regions the intervals are 6-9 am and 4-6 pm. 15 minutes per day is enough in tropical regions and a bit more in other regions.

Nevertheless, you have more than a couple of hours to get outside and get some sun. Just have a schedule and stick to it :)

One last thing: visit your doctor often and check for overall nutrient levels (vitamins, minerals, etc) and avoid taking supplements before it.

<comment><USER7> _there are certain time intervals in a day that you CAN get some sun exposure without worring (too much) about UV rays & skin cancer_

Note that it is exposure to ultraviolet light (particularly UVB) that causes the production of Vitamin D.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There are many different types of vitamin D synthesized in our bodies which require sunlight to form. The many varieties of D are used in an enormous amount of different chemical processes in our bodies- many of which are quite complex and not fully understood.

Vitamin D supplements consist of (mostly) one type of Vitamin D. People _are_ typically deficient in that specific type so mild supplementation _is_ a reasonable option. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that taking Vitamin D is a replacement for spending adequate time outdoors. Compared to the first 100 million years of our species existence, hiding indoors all day is a relatively new invention. It will be a while before science produces a silver bullet in gelcap form.

<comment><USER9> Could you provide some references? I'm really interested to learn more

EDIT: I'm looking for backup to the claim that sunlight provides something that you don't get in a vitamin D3 supplement. It seems reasonable but has a big impact on the solution.

<comment><USER10> _[5] forms (vitamers) of vitamin D exist (see table). The two major forms are vitamin D2 or ergocalciferol, and vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol, vitamin D without a subscript refers to either D2 or D3 or both. These are known collectively as calciferol....Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is produced by ultraviolet irradiation (UV) of its precursor 7-dehydrocholesterol. This molecule occurs naturally in the skin of animals and in milk. Vitamin D3 can be made by exposure of the skin to UV, or by exposing milk directly to UV (one commercial method)._

\</comment></comment></comment><comment>

 _Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) is produced industrially by exposing 7-dehydrocholesterol to UVB light, followed by purification.[143] The 7-dehydrocholesterol is a natural substance in wool grease (lanolin) from sheep or other woolly animals. Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) is produced in a similar way using ergosterol from yeast or mushrooms as a starting material.[143]_

Tl;dr of 5 types & only D2 and D3 are commercial avail

\--Wikipedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D>

<comment><USER11> It looks to me like the supplement is D3 and the one you get from UV exposure is D3, so no, spending time outdoors doesn't give you any better Vitamin D than the supplement. Of course, exercise has other benefits.

<comment><USER12> I would amend that to no _proven_ benefits. The body is a complex system. D3 generated by the body via natural pathways may be more effective than ingested D3 in some way we don't understand yet.

Leaving aside any other ill-understood benefits of sun exposure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I supplement with 5000iu per day, and check my blood levels regularly. Even with supplementation far exceeding governmental recommendations, My blood levels have never exceeded 70 ng/mL, which is well within the health range of 30 - 100 ng/mL.

My advice is to get yourself tested, supplement, and continue testing. <http://wellnessfx.com> is a great service for minimum effort monitoring. Alternatively you can use cash-based services like this to order easily and without a doctor: [http://www.mdlabtests.com/Vitamin- Tests/081950-Vitamin-D-25-...](http://www.mdlabtests.com/Vitamin- Tests/081950-Vitamin-D-25-Hydroxy.html)

<comment><USER12> I cannot wait for Wellness FX to come to Canada.

Here doctors look at you funny if you want to track biomarkers. "You're young, problems don't occur until you get old". As if they've never heard of prevention.

<comment><USER14> You can't blame them, that's in general a healthier attitude than obsessing over chemistry and stuffing yourself with pills. Same as full-body CT scans.

<comment><USER15> You do realize that our body keeps going via chemical processes? Genetics can cause insufficient absorption of certain nutrients, and given the long term consequences of chronic deficiencies, testing may not be such a bad idea after all. Also, knowing your blood work means that you won't be stuffing yourself with pills you don't need.

<comment><USER14> That's what I'm talking about :) 99% of people will go on to live just fine without knowing their precise blood levels. "Preventive medicine" is not considered to be advantageous, usually the anxiety and stress outweights any benefits unless you end up being the 0.1% and finding a serious condition that didn't raise any alarms in your body.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Well, that's a pretty content-free article.

And there are lots of posts here, with anecdotes and opinions... but nobody is talking about hard data, science, and (most importantly) clinical trials. Is that because it hasn't been proven through a real clinical trial that "programmers must take Vitamin D"?

<comment><USER17> It is pretty content-free, although I found interesting the claim that caffeine interferes with vitamin D uptake. I'll have to look into that (though the article included no references... ಠ_ಠ).

<comment><USER17> Finished researching it; claim is pretty bogus. My writeup is too long for Hacker News, however: [https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/AUg3udez...](https://plus.google.com/103530621949492999968/posts/AUg3udezXMS)

Also emailed the blog post author Chris Hunt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Most Americans are deficient in Vitamin D, programmer or not. [1].

One of the few supplements that are actually is a good idea, but don't overdo it, as it becomes toxic at higher levels.

You would not want to take more than 10 000IU per day and I'd probably recommend 2000IU-4000IU as a baseline. If you can afford the time and expense, the best is to close the loop and take a 25(OH)D blood test. You would want to have a serum level of between 30-70ng/mL. Given the studies I've read over a number of years I aim for around 55ng/mL, but there are differing views on this, so by all means do your own research.

[1] [http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=41487...](http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=414878)

</comment><comment><USER19> This problem actually happened to me. A few years ago I started feeling incredibly lethargic. I would wake up with no energy. It was like sleep had done nothing for me. I didn't know what was wrong, but I felt horrible.

After around two weeks I went to the doctor. A blood test was done and it showed I had low vitamin D (26 ng/mL). After about a week of supplementation I felt normal again. It's easy to forget to go outside, and if you're a programmer and feel low energy, vitamin D is definitely something to look into.

<comment><USER20> 20 is the lower limit of normal per US guidelines, though some specialty societies have their low threshold set at 30.

At any rate, you are unlikely to have any calcium metabolism deficits at 26 and it's unlikely to have been a cause of any symptom in an otherwise healthy adult.

<comment><USER19> Hrm, I may have the "ng/mL" part wrong then, or I may just be sensitive to low levels. All I remember is the number and that he said I was low. Supplementation definitely resolved my problems though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I have a better idea. Go outside.

I have a garden. I have a deck. I have two kids who I take to the pool regularly. I have a lawn that needs maintenance. I _like_ to go outside.

Another thing. I work during the day.

Problem solved.

<comment><USER22> But for the love of $DEITY, please wear adequate sun protection. At the very least that means a hat and sunscreen, but you probably want to be using long sleeved clothing and sunglasses if you're outside for an extended period of time.

Vitamin D deficiency is bad, but skin cancer is worse.

<comment><USER23> "If you're fair skinned, experts say going outside for 10 minutes in the midday sun—in shorts and a tank top with no sunscreen—will give you enough radiation to produce about 10,000 international units of the vitamin."

You don't need a lot of sun exposure to get your body to produce enough vitamin D.

<comment><USER24> As a person of Scottish descent I joke that I can get a sun burn by holding a picture of the Sun near my skin :-)

<comment><USER25> I'm surprised why they don't use those "sunlight lamps" in Scotland yet. I guess whisky does a better job ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I started taking D3 last fall, and it has made a big difference in how I feel. I started with 3600IU for a few months and when I started feeling more energetic and cheerful dropped down to 2600 (2x 1000IU + 600IU & calcium). I get outside quite a bit, but in Vancouver WA the skies are overcast a lot and the low sun angle means you can't get enough for vitamin D needs. I also take a probiotic, an anti-oxidant, a fish oil and a green tea supplement. My diet is mostly paleo. My ancestry is northern European.

For reference, you need to take 50,000IU for several months to develop toxicity (ref: <http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-d-toxicity/AN02008>). If you are pale skinned and don't spend a lot of time in the sun, you are much more likely to be deficient.

If you really want to see where you're at, have your doctor do a blood test, or go get a micro-nutrient test <http://www.spectracell.com/mnt/>

</comment><comment><USER27> Taking supplements without assessing what your current daily intake of Vitamin D is can be dangerous; it is surprisingly easy to go over the recommended dosage, and there is such a thing as overdosing on vitamins [1]. You don't just get Vitamin D from the sun - it is also present in eggs, some seafood, and certain fortified dairy products. Because of this, you may not need to take a daily supplement at all. Programmers are at an increased risk for vitamin D deficiency, but you should ALWAYS examine your diet to assess your current vitamin D intake before deciding to take a supplement.

[1] [http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/10-surpr...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2012/09/10-surprising- dangers-of-vitamins-and-supplements/index.htm)

<comment><USER28> Calculating my vitamin D intake sounds difficult and unreliable. Is there any way to measure my vitamin D levels by examining my body?

<comment><USER29> Pretty much if you live in a northern part of the northern hemisphere (above 49 degrees latitude) you need a vitamin D supplement.

I recall reading about a researcher in Boston (I think) who said after about mid October you could be sprawled buck naked on a rooftop all day and not get enough vitamin D from (brief winter) sun exposure.

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/05/16/f-health- vita...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2008/05/16/f-health- vitamin-d.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I actually have to avoid Vitamin D. I have a disorder (Hypercalcaemia) that causes me to build up calcium in my blood. Vitamin D can rapidly improve the body's ability to absorb calcium (hence Vitamin D enriched milk). Too much calcium in your blood can lead to various physical nervous disorders (I get facial ticks in the muscles around my eyes) but can also result in various psychologically similar problems like depression, anxiety, insomnia, fatigue and various other problems. In severe cases can lead to coma and death as it can interfere with heart rhythms and other central nervous functions.

It's a real pain in the tail as the number of food products fortified with calcium and vitamin D is remarkably high.

<comment><USER31> How did you find out you have this? I've persistently had quite a few of the symptoms but nothing comes up on tests. In experimenting, I gave up all dairy which has helped a lot so I've simply been assuming I'm lactose intolerant..

<comment><USER32> Milk has a lot of other things which may trigger your allergies other than lactose. You might be lactose tolerant, but milk intolerant in general.

Furthermore, "Milk", quite surprisingly, is not well defined either. I've switched to RonnyBrook recently (NY local, organic, grass fed, and I get it within two days of leaving the cow), and it's a world of difference: The taste, my body's reaction (My lungs and sinuses would often respond to milk by clogging and excreting stuff, they don't anymore).

I haven't been able to find high quality sources (peer reviewed, etc) but I've read claims that the nutrient and vitamin profile of milk from grass fed vs. corn fed cows is completely different - which I don't really doubt - <USER2> I'm waiting for some high quality analysis for the exact difference.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I was tested and was deficient, now I take it every day and my levels are normal. Two buddies of mine got tested later and were also deficient, dangerously low even. We live in Portland, Oregon, so sunlight exposure is generally low, but I'd say it's a good idea for anyone to get tested.

</comment><comment><USER33> I thought the evidence for the benefits of taking vitamin tablets (for anyone not deficient) was non-existent. I'm also under the belief that diet modification works much better than vitamin tablets For deficiencies.

<comment><USER17> Multivitamins != vitamin D.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Blanket declarations that involve any form of medication is just wrong.

Sure alot of people don't get enough vitamin D and that may be more true in the feild of IT than others, but anybody who isolates themselfs and dosn't get out to grab a little bit of sun here and there will be a probably candidate for low vitamin D.

Now if you are one of those people who find themselfs driven to go take extra vitamins tthen you need to know a couple of things:

Vitamins are balanced in that you need one to enable another to do another thing and it's not as clear cut as dropping a few multi vits every day. It's better to com0liment your food intake with the occasional multi vitamin instead of a ritrual daily overdose turning your pee bright orange.

The other aspect is that if you are low on vitimin D and start taking supliments then you will get aches and pains which feel like your bones are bruised in places. DONT PANIC - this is a sighn that you were low on vitamin D and it is your body adjusting, it is normal and nothing to worry about beyond confirming you were low in that vitamin group.

But if you are that worried about lack of any vitamin then it is always best to compliment via dietary needs and for vitamin D you cant beat a nice walk outside at the right times.

Like any form of consumption be it vitamins, food, forum posts etc - <USER3> golden rule is moderation, moderation and moderation.

</comment><comment><USER35> I took 10,000 ui a day for over a year to build my vit d level up to 176. I have multiple sclerosis. My goal is 200, have done a tone of research on the topic, toxicity levels, etc... For 12 years in a row, have had a relapse every winter, past winter didn't have one. One could say this is a coincedence, I say no. In the summer I am always out in the sun alday, mostly every day, shorts, t-shirt, etc... For some reason, my body doesn't absorb the vit d good. I have fair skin, that tans very well. Anyways, I just wanted to share my knowledge to help others.

</comment><comment><USER36> Well... I'm a web developer, not a "real" programmer, and I don't code at night. I did until I got married, but no longer. Now that I have a kid, it's suicide to do it more than once a week.

</comment><comment><USER37> Interesting post but without any source

</comment><comment><USER38> A high quality source of vitamin D is liver. Cod liver oil is a great way to supplement your diet. In Iceland you can get it in small sardine type cans and spread the liver on crackers.

<comment><USER20> It does contain some vitamin D, but it also contains about 10x as much vitamin A. Hypervitaminosis A is a real problem. I would not think it particularly safe to use cod liver oil for vitamin D supplementation because of this risk, especially when other supplements exist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I always thought that mushrooms were a good source of vitamin D, ends up it a slightly different form and isn't a suitable source. Thanks for the heads up!

</comment><comment><USER40> No one has mentioned reptile lamps yet? Medical UVB is expensive and probably can't be bought without a license of some sort. Reptile lamps you can buy from a local pet store or online.

But nothing beats the real sun (and greenery and fresh air), obviously. Given that the discovery of Vitamin D, heck the whole concept of vitamins even, is relatively recent, we really don't know what else we don't know.

</comment><comment><USER41> I've been drinking recently a ridiculous amount of caffeine every day. (5-6 coffees + redbulls ) And at the same time I eat everyday tuna sandwich and salmons for dinner every third day. ( +snack a lot of bananas ). Regardless I've never been a real fan of this kind of food, so it must have been a natural body adaptation to low vitamins D level.

</comment><comment><USER42> I'll have a pizza, please. Yes... marinara sauce, cheese and all the anchovies and sardines that you can fit on it.

</comment><comment><USER14> Got me worried for a sec, but I eat a lot of tuna/sardine sandwiches and salads :)

<comment><USER43> Get checked anyway. I eat sushi quite frequently, and prefer fish over other meats; and I was still very, very low, somewhere around 12.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> This is missing something, but I can't put my finger on it.

Oh yeah: citations.

<comment><USER45> This is another anecdote point: my mom is a nutritional biochemist who has done research on vitamins for much of her life. She always tells me to take Vitamin D and that nearly everyone is deficient because we don't go outside enough (and live in high latitudes).

Not science, but the author is on to something, I think. If you doubt it, get your blood tested and see what your doctor says. If you don't want to get tested, take a conservative supplement.

<comment><USER44> I already take a basic multivitamin, but my concern is not that I'm trying to make a personal decision based on this article; I make my health decisions based on more research than that.

My concern is that the article makes a strong empirical claim that it does not back up:

>However, it also inhibits vitamin D receptors, and as such decreases the body's uptake of this-much-needed-vitamin.

In fact, I can find a couple of studies sort of supporting this, but they have to do with a very specific vitamin D receptor in a very specific subpopulation (elderly women).

Some people are going to read this and they're going to assimilate into their "probably true facts" bank the idea that caffeine just generally keeps you from absorbing vitamin D, and then they're going to repeat that fact and it will spread, and we'll have a whole new common belief about caffeine which is probably false.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I would love to write code outside.

I wish laptops with ebook reader like screens would exist.

It would not even bother me if they were only black and white.

<comment><USER47> 1) JB a kindle 2) install some sort of ssh 3) ??? 4) PROFIT

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> That is one of the reasons why I set up my workstation on my deck when I am working from home and the weather is nice.

</comment><comment><USER49> Lots of interesting podcasts (techie and also story and news oriented) + player + walk or run in sun = winning.

</comment><comment><USER50> In the winter I'm taking D2, because it's the vitamin prescribed to children and so less toxic.

</comment><comment><USER51> I think I trashed my teeth through drinking juice and a lack of sunshine.

</comment><comment><USER52> Also milk. Iced Latte. Caffeine and Vitamin D.

</comment><comment><USER53> Oily fish is on my pizza, some of the time!

</comment><comment><USER54> Go outside!

</comment><comment><USER55> Every day at about lunch time I go lie on the roof in the sun for 10 minutes - doctor's orders. I also take D supplements but that alone was not enough to get my levels back to the normal range so I have to get some actual sun as often as I can too.

It's a bit of a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation here in Australia: Approximately two in three Australians will be diagnosed with skin cancer before the age of 70, while approximately one out of three Australians have vitamin D deficiency...

<comment><USER32> How much supplements do you take? RDAs are in the range of 400-1000 IU, but apparently everyone I know who was actually tested and found deficient was asked to do 100mg/kg of body weight (meaning 7000-9000 IU), so it seems the RDA is off by an order of magnitude - perhaps established for a baseline of people who live in a sunny place and hang out a lot.

<comment><USER29> If you have dark skin you need more vitamin D, if you're obese you need more, if you're elderly you need more and if you are covered up in the sun you need more vitamin D.

7000 to 9000 IU sounds high but 1000 IU sounds way too low.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Thank you so much.</comment>