Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired' - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53180073 <comment> o-__-o All of these comments and I'm left wondering if I'm the only black person commenting in this thread.

I've been passed up for promotions, fired, and hired based solely on my color. I keep moving on but y'all it's been 20 years of this. And it just started getting a little better in the past 3 years but is a total gamble based on where you work.

In my current Fortune 500 job, I was hired for my expertise then was moved to a new team where my expertise didn't even matter. Every issue that came up that I had qualifications for I was passed over for a lesser skilled White man. I'm used to this but this was my shot at moving up with a big company name behind me and it was ruined for what I can only wonder if it was an unconscious bias. Now I don't care and I'm doing just enough and it seems as though I'm not going to get fired because it will look bad on paper. Yes I'm projecting, one could say don't give up and you could have another chance.. and that exact situation presented itself but really..... I don't care anymore. I've made my 20 years of industry money why am I still fighting against a system that is obviously unfair to me. I'll let the next generation try and when they fail I will welcome them into my business with open arms.

So here is my advice to all minorities, poc, women, etc disenfranchised groups: focus on yourself, stay with a good team/company when you do find one, stay connected to the community, and above all help help help your fellow struggling humans. We are all in this together and one day you will be helming your own company (this is hacker news right?) that matters with the people you met and mentored along the way.

Edit: Just in case it's not obvious I'm a millennial and I had a wonderful early childhood start to my career that other black men and women don't get the luxury to have. So it's not like I'm an old man in my 50s, I'm the same age as a lot of folks here and have worked on the same systems that a lot of older folks have built... but my resume is probably littered with lower roles than those that you've held. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to burn this throwaway to continue hiding my skin color on the internet

<comment><USER2> > I've been passed up for promotions, fired, and hired based solely on my > color

"solely". It's easy to pin point a problem on others.

This might come in handy - [https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1276956836856393728?s=20](https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1276956836856393728?s=20)

<comment><USER3> It's also easy to be dismissive on the internet. Please don't do that here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER2> Disclaimer - english is not my first language

Hey dang,

I am curious. what could I have done better?

if OP said he is suffering "solely" because of his colour and I think, its borderline impossible to pin point a result of large complex system on any one thing?

P.S. - do people flag my comments or did you just see it on your own.

<comment><USER3> People in the GP's situation often encounter responses like "it's easy to pin point a problem on others" or other logical-sounding objections that come across as dismissive of the specific experiences that they're reporting. If you do that in the way you did it, complete with a Twitter link about how to become a 'high-agency' person, other people will interpret you as saying 'that's not happening' and 'you should just try harder', i.e. as telling them that they're wrong in the description of their own experience and ultimately as denying that race has been a factor in it. Do you see how that could come across as dismissive?

It's possible that you were misled by the word 'solely', since your objection seemed to be sort of a technical one based on the literal meaning of that word. Since you say you're a non-native English speaker, I can see how that could happen. It's clear from the GP's reply to you that they didn't mean that word literally. When it comes to an issue as complex and as emotional as this, it's usually best not to react to just one word, but rather to suss out the comment as a whole. That goes for native speakers too.

One thing that might have been better is to ask clarifying questions rather than making objections. If you ask an open-ended question in a heartfelt way, it might invite the other person to expand on his or her experience more, in a way that both helps you understand and makes them feel like someone is listening. It's tricky, though. This topic is so fraught that it's easy for a question to sound like a counterargument, and the discourse has unfortunately been polluted by a lot of questions which are not questions at all, but attempts to undermine. So if you do ask such a question, make it clear (as best you can) that you mean it sincerely.

It makes me wonder if we could build tools to help craft the conversation differently, but that's another topic.

(No one flagged your comment above; I just happened to see it in the thread.)

<comment><USER2> Hey Dang, that was really helpful! Thanks!

> It's possible that you were misled by the word 'solely'

Yeah, I don't think I fully understand the premise.

> Do you see how that could come across as dismissive?

I can see that but it's really hard to convey something contrary to popular belief.

Let's say I want to say something like "it's easy to be a victim rather than to take action and make change" I truly believe that and I really think it will help people to take actions rather than just being stagnant. I don't want to be dismissive. How can I say it?

> better is to ask clarifying questions rather than making objections

I somewhat agree. But, it's hard to discuss without counter arguments.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hey everyone, author here. It seems like this post have been flagged, but I'd like to add a little comment here so it may clarify things.

First, a little over a week ago we were having a similar discussion here [1] and I promised I'd post my article about it. This is the article.

Second, I want people to understand that this is a complex issue and the solution might/should be as complex. It's not a case of, OK let's hire 20 more black people and it's over. The reality is that, well first you have to find them, and then you have to see if they qualify for a job you are actually hiring for.

But one thing that anyone one here can do is get up from their chair and look around the office, you immediately notice that black people aren't there. This is what this article is doing. It's asking why?

Every anecdote I brought up about treatment is something that happened to me on multiple occasions. Now I'm getting hundreds of emails with people saying "you pulled the words out of my mouth." And some examples sound innocent enough and could be interpreted in many ways. But like Joel Spolsky once said, "it's the tiny little frustration that add up"[2] and at some point you are angry and don't even know why.

This is a call to be more understanding and for all of us to be aware of the challenges black people face. I don't have a solution to end racism, and I don't pretend I do. But when we all understand each other a little better, racism tend to start fading away.

[1]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856) [2]: [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling- your-e...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling-your- environment-makes-you-happy/)

Edit: typo and my mistake, this post is not flagged as of writing.

<comment><USER5> Thank you for writing this. If there's at least one thing I hope everyone can agree is a positive, it's people sharing their perspectives like this.

> look around the office, you immediately notice that black people aren't > there.

You're right, there aren't. One in ten people in my city is black, but I would estimate* fewer than one in forty developers at my work are. But there were just as few in my college classes, in my tech clubs, advanced mathematics classes, and any other place that would lead a person to software development. I think we need to address the problems with diversity in those place at the same time as we deal with the workplace problems.

* All the obvious caveats apply. I'm not going to project an identity onto someone else.

<comment><USER6> It's not exclusionary.

I have almost no say at what happens at my local University. Do you? I can at most pay taxes, write my representatives, and maybe a couple other ancillary things.

What I _can_ control to a huge degree is who my company hires and how I treat my colleagues.

Seeking out how to help POC programmers in the workforce doesn't mean we can't also work to improve the American education gap. We have a lot of time in the day, after all.

<comment><USER5> In what part of my writing did I suggest that it was exclusionary?

> It's not a case of, OK let's hire 20 more black people and it's over. The > reality is that, well first you have to find them, and then you have to see > if they qualify for a job you are actually hiring for.

I was addressing this statement from the author, suggesting that if my perception of the education system is accurate then it could be difficult to find those developers if barriers at school aren't also broken. Maybe my perception is wrong, but that's why we have discussions.

> I have almost no say at what happens at my local University. Do you?

I do. I am an alumni and can contribute to scholarships that fund students in underrepresented categories. As a student, I published articles supporting my (what I would consider progressive) political positions that opened up discussions but also received significant criticism.

> Seeking out how to help POC programmers in the workforce doesn't mean we > can't also work to improve the American education gap. We have a lot of time > in the day, after all.

Hopefully. I'm not American, so I can't say much. Best I can do is listen and think about what I do and say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Again, for context, I'm Black and I've been in the industry for 25 years. I have never experienced what the author experienced.

Maybe it's because I've worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies are use to seeing Black professionals?

It could be that I've spent all of my career in the staid enterprise development space instead of Big Tech? Whatever it is, I can't ignore statistics because of the anecdotal experience of myself and my friends in tech.

 _However, I have a 0% success rate with video interviews._

My only video interviews were the ones I had with AWS. It was a success. Again, I'm not going to discount his truth.

<comment><USER8> >Again, for context, I'm Black and I've been in the industry for 25 years. I have never experienced what the author experienced.

>Maybe it's because I've worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies are use to seeing Black professionals?

It's not just you. I'm not black but, am from Atlanta, and maybe that's the common link but this just seems like it's from a different planet. It's just hard for me to grok things like this:

>I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must be in the wrong room."

>But the day I come to the office in person, they are taken aback. I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone."

Who are these people that are surprised that a guy named Ibrahim is black?

<comment><USER9> My guess is the accent was throwing people to the point it seemed like a "bait and switch".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The other story about this fellow where his contract was accidentally terminated or not renewed (linked to from this article) is just about as Kafkaesque as you can get:

[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838)

</comment><comment><USER11> This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know where to start.

I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least _noticing_. Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians at the workplace, but black people are so rare that it always feels like a surprise. Maybe there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem in play.

I recall that when I was in the military, I got so used to the racial make-up, which has a _lot_ more representation from black people than my hometown, that it wouldn't register at all. Just another guy. When it _really_ hit home was after I'd been back in Oregon for a few months after I left the service, when I was walking across the college campus and noticed a small group of black students walking towards me. I noticed them, and then I realized that I had just _noticed_ them, as if they were noteworthy. That was the moment I realized how white Oregon [mostly] is. I didn't feel negativity towards them, but I felt uncomfortable that it was something that even came to mind.

In any case, we have two black guys on our team. Both really nice, but very different people. One of them acts like he was raised locally in a wealthy family, he's very laid back and doesn't seem to feel out of place. The other guy is a little older, and if you didn't know better you'd think he was a little hostile. No, he's wary. He acts like he's faced judgement his entire life and he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Easy to be comfortable around the first guy, much harder around the second guy. I want to act like it's not even anything to be aware of, but that in itself seems pretty dishonest. People are different, and that's totally okay. Good in fact, since they bring their own unique perspective to the daily problems we are asked to solve.

<comment><USER12> > I try really hard to ignore color

One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc. Biases will never go away, we all have negative thoughts pop into our head, you cannot "ignore race", but we can all take steps to improve things.

<comment><USER13> Isn't that horribly patronizing?

I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin color.

<comment><USER14> [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gFP4dJHJXoI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gFP4dJHJXoI)

Couldn't find the whole thing, but I agree it seems constantly talking about race leads to more racism and not less. Seems so opposed to the civil right movement stance against segregation.

<comment><USER6> "constantly talking about race leads to more racism not less" Isn't an effective argument against diversity and inclusion efforts.

Racism is real and POC Americans (to scope the discussion) are experiencing it. Maybe Morgan Freeman has the perspective that pretending it's not real will make it go away, but that doesn't change the fact that black programmers are underrepresented, or that police forces are staffed with avowed racists, or that... Etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I have frequently heard stories like these but find them odd. Perhaps these are scenarios that occur more frequently at smaller companies. Most of my professional corporate experience has been at large companies. As an example people of Indian and Middle East decent make up less than 1% of the US population but if I had to guess the percentage of my developer coworkers from Indian or Middle East decent it would be at least 40%.

At larger companies like I have been at there are all kinds of foreign accents and nobody makes a thing of it. Nobody tries to guess where people are from. I only discovered one of my coworkers is of Kuwaiti decent after disclosing that I am temporarily relocating to Kuwait (I thought was Greek but was not curious enough to bring it up).

Honestly I don't think I would want to work at place that allowed such exclusive habits about my coworkers which make these stories all the more strange to me.

</comment><comment><USER16> >Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the workforce

Just raw extrapolation, this would indicate that (13-3.1)/13 or 76% of black folks in technology are either unemployed or not working in tech. Is that the case?

If it is, then laying this problem at the feet of employers and the systems involved with hiring and retention seems fair.

If not, then there might be more work to be done to develop interest in the industry in the young and displaced folks that are looking for a career path _IN ADDITION_ to continuing to ensure that the hiring and retention results in industry are reasonable given the pool of folks that are interested in the work.

<comment><USER17> Not sure where the author got his numbers from but if you read the full article, the author notes that the numbers/percentages themselves can be misleading, because that 3.1% could include the security guard who swipes your badge or some other peripheral role at a technology company.

It is also true that Blacks do in fact quit the industry at high rates due to bias treatment; based on the number of computer science and technology degrees granted to blacks, their representation should be higher if there was higher retention.

It is also the case that blacks in technology often end in up in specific sectors of the industry, for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public sector, specifically in the federal government...unfortunately that is not likely to be the source of the next great tech innovator.

<comment><USER18> > for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public > sector, specifically in the federal government

Do you know why that is? Maybe government work is more inclusive, like the military

<comment><USER19> Accessible job stability and good benefits. The overall pay is lower than the private sector, but if you're looking for stable income first and foremost, working for the government is an excellent option. This stability will be particularly appealing for people who grew up in poverty.

Source: My father worked for the government, and my grandfather was a working- class immigrant who started with nothing, so money was tight.

<comment><USER20> Can confirm, I'm black, and growing up I would often hear my parents and aunts often say that the government jobs were the best because it was stable

<comment><USER18> Good point- I have seen that thrown around as a reason to enlist in the military (family benefits) or defense contractors (job security for 20 years!)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is a bit of an aside, but...

What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to something greater than ourselves.

I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient with my shitty French and say/do rude things. I'd probably end up affiliating with other Anglophones because we'd all be going through the same journey.

Expecting people to completely suppress this tendency towards in-group affiliation seems, frankly, unscientific. Most of the popular proposals aimed at "eliminating racism" seem likely to fail, or even backfire, because they treat racism like it's something evil people do rather than a byproduct of our tendency to connect more easily to people like us.

<comment><USER22> Here is an interesting observation. If we take a look at how different nations are distributed across big cities, we can see that many neighborhoods are race specific. A lot of cities have chinese, jewish, russian, mexican, etc. neighborhoods, meaning that people _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people. What's more important, it happens organically. It's not like some organization or government forces people to move there. There are no incentives, no financial benefits. Nothing. People are free to live anywhere they want, but they still create those communities and prefer to live among their own kind. From this specific observation, it seems like racism is more like a biological thing, the product of evolution.

<comment><USER23> > _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people

You are forgetting that those kinds of neighborhoods have developed in part because other people have taken mild-to-extreme steps to prevent "those" people from living with them.

Known steps in the US include at the very least: \- rules preventing "those" people from living in some places \- mild-to-extreme actions against "those" people when they move in \- people leaving when too many of "those" people move in

I.e., "People are free to live anywhere they want" is completely wrong, even in living memory.

<comment><USER24> So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they all are racist to each other?

Not because they want to be around people that are similar to themselves?

And the fact that the same pattern shows up basically everywhere. In Africa, Asia, Europe, North America and to some extent South America, does not change your perception?

<comment><USER6> > So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because > they all are racist to each other?

No, because the empowered class artificially created ghettos, and either forced racial separation directly or indirectly by removing access to societal resources, forcing communities to form to compensate. Of course Cuban refugees will form Spanish speaking communities in a hostile Florida - everything is in English (which they're still learning), many local whites don't want them there and sometimes make that very apparent, and the community is already filled with people with the same background that "made it work," so can offer useful advice and resources.

This doesn't change anything about diversity bringing power, when one can overcome societal biases and racism.

<comment><USER24> Pray, tell. Why would these repressed Cubans not live together with hispanics, in hispanic ghettos. Speaking the same language and all.

After all, that would make them a stronger force, and definitely give them more diversity.

<comment><USER6> They... Do...? That's why an empowerment movement might focus on Latinx in general, and as you go more local you might find some of the same people at the state Latinx rally as you do at a city's Cuban American resource exchange group or whatever.

The point is that self-sorting doesn't by definition mean that humans are inherently racist or that it's natural/ethical to oppress minority populations, which I take as one of the many bad taste implications from this thread.

<comment><USER24> I don't see anybody except you conflate natural and ethical.

So the cubans now live side by side with mexicans? And both they and mexicans/south americans self-identify as hispanics/latinx and not cubans, mexicans or something else?

And having a Cuban American cultural exchange is just an oddity of history? And is now more the latinx american cultural exchange?

<comment><USER6> The thread is being lost - what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

<comment><USER24> That self-selection for living and organizing with kindred is something that also happens in the absence of extreme power disparity.

<comment><USER6> You've failed to provide evidence. All the examples we're discussing involve extreme power disparity.

That also doesn't necessarily mean that diversity = bad. It's easier to stay at home and watch Netflix than it is to travel to a foreign country and experience their culture, yet every time I do the latter, no matter how uncomfortable the trip can make me at times, I always come back grateful I did the trip, and imo a far better person.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm half black. I think my story started pretty bad but become much better so sharing hoping someone else may feel more hopeful.

I grew up in a south european racist country and I had some fun times. Nothing serious, kids making fun of me, cops stopping me to check if I was dealing drugs, if I had a passport or a knife. I started working when I was 14 as a developer online, mainly because I wanted to get out of there and stop being surrounded by idiots. That country was terrible for jobs anyway and by 16 I was getting a decent pay for the country, just by making a few ad supported website and by freelancing with the rest of the world. At 22, after getting my dose of almost free university, I ran to London, where I never experienced any form of racism. I raised some money for my startup (which failed) without particular problems and after that I started contracting. Given my provable experience, I got senior level jobs pretty much immediately and got a nice pay for Europe at 23-24 (90k+£) which increased and become a remote half eng half manager job in the following years. All those racist kids back in my home country are still stuck in jobs paying less than a barista in the UK.

It doesn't matter what other people think. Your perceived "race" doesn't matter, it's just one of the characteristics that define you and some people will react positively and give you free scholarships or quota jobs. Some people will react negatively and think you're a criminal, some won't give you a job. That's life. Probably something similar happens to you because of your height, because you're attractive / ugly, because of your gender, because you dress well / bad. If you were to think of all the possible positive and negative characteristics that influence how someone is perceived, you could partition people in so many different groups, you wouldn't even know who you should "positively discriminate" which means negatively discriminate everyone else. But there are so many other things you can do to improve yourself and compensate with words and skills whatever bias may someone else hold.

I had some insecurities linked to my skin color and to some physical defects but, as part of training to become a better leader, I learned to embrace them and to use them to to surround yourself with people who can be positive for you.

I don't like how this issue has been politicised recently and I think it reflects incredibly poorly on us. One of the stigma I have to fight is that of scaring someone if we're walking in the same street at night. I hope the situation will not get worse and that we won't raise a generation of kids that think that black people = violent riots to steal tv and get money.

</comment><comment><USER26> Now that I think about it: I've met more female programmers than black ones.

And I might have met maybe 2 female programmers, and 0 black programmers.

Weird.

Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired.

Anyway I'd welcome colleagues of any color and gender.

<comment><USER27> "Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired."

If one showed up, you know very well she'd be hired. At least, that's my impression of what would happen at a large company.

"Anyway I'd welcome colleagues of any color and gender."

Yes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> > Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the > minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight > largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of > the workforce.

I think the right metric to look at is the "percentage of black people who have the necessary degrees or equivalent qualifications". You can't blame companies for the problem if the disproportionality is introduced in the education funnel. In that case, the question that needs to be asked is "why are black people less likely to go into STEM"?

<comment><USER29> Do you know what school graduates more black cs graduates than any other. Georgia tech.

How many major tech companies have serious hubs in Atlanta? Some of them, but certainly not all.

People don't like to move. A nontrivial amount of the pipeline problem can be addressed by opening offices in the southeast.

<comment><USER28> If the best talent or opportunity isn't in the southeast, then companies won't go there, so I think it's not as simple as "just open your office in the southeast". Companies are distributed closer to their relevant hubs. Like you said, people don't want to move, especially if it means taking loss in efficacy.

<comment><USER29> Then people need to give up on this "its a pipeline problem" argument, like tech companies have no capability of acquiring different pipelines.

<comment><USER28> It's not about the capability, it's about the switching cost. A business's cash flow is like their blood flow; they do things that bankrupt them, they die. You can't expect businesses to go bankrupt to perform a contrived move. There is an energy cost for every change.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> I am really curious about brown people.

How come Indians succeed in tech? Why do we have so many Indians in tech?

if it's just the skin colour. Why do Indians in tech rise to the top.

P.S. - Before you try to cancel me - I am not trying to start a flame war. I am curious about your explanation.

<comment><USER30> In the socratic fashion, I would ask you: why are Chinese or Japanese people treated differently when they have very light skin, similar to white people?

The answer is that it's not just your skin color but many other features that lead people to assume many other things about you: culture, heritage, upbringing, physical and mental acumen, etc.

Historically, black people from Africa in America have been routinely oppressed and forced into the lower class, whereas Indian people have a much different history (that I cannot speak to, I don't know much about it). Therefore, they are treated much differently by our society.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> > Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the > minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight > largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of > the workforce.

I don't think it's fair to compare the ratio of black people in tech/at large tech companies to the population as a whole.

There are a lot of things keeping black people from being able to even consider a career in tech, particularly educational attainment. Sure, you can get a job in tech without a college degree, but black people are still much less likely to have access to a computer or a high speed internet connection, or have the free time to be able to tech themselves the necessary skills.

Let's also not forget that, horrifically, 1 in 3 black men in America have spent time in prison (many unjustly).

So I think before we go around and say X company is racist because at least 13% of their workforce isn't black, we need to contend with how awful outcomes for black people are in America and try instead to do what we can to ensure they have a _truly_ equal opportunity to thrive.

</comment><comment><USER32> > I am a Guinean citizen, who went to French school in Saudi Arabia, and now > lives in California.

So he is not even African-American. I can't understand why it is important to him how much people share skin color with him, he should feel as good as any other immigrant. Do even middle class Americans segregate themselves by race at work?

<comment><USER18> It is important to him because it's important to the other non-PoC people that keep thinking he should not be in the room

Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech

Nothing to do with job qualification for the job

<comment><USER33> > Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many > black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech

How are we able to put words in the (non participating) interviewer's mouth?

If you're using the words 'probably' and 'thought' in one sentence, maybe your point isn't really valid. That's a lot of pre-supposing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've always wondered whether it has anything to do with the number of applicants whom are black. It's the same argument with why there are fewer women developers, there could simply be that there are more men in the industry.

Let's assume that 9 out of 10 applicants for a developer role are men, then the odds of that role being filled by anyone that isn't a man is 10% (not factoring other considerations such as skill, experience etc).

Is this not a similar challenge with black developers? According to the stack overflow survey, the ethinicity of the respondants whom are Black or African descent is only at 4.5%.

I'd be interested to see data on the demographics of, not only the employed staff at a company but all applicants that have applied including those whom were rejected or turned down the roles.

</comment><comment><USER35> The author hits on something really important. Many people who entered the field 10+ years ago are people who had computers as children. If you're 30+ right now, that means your family had some means, because computers were very expensive up until pretty recently.

Hopefully we'll see the pipe really getting wide now, and many more people from many different backgrounds entering this excellent field.

<comment> doopy-loopy2 Nope.

My parents were refugees and arrived in this country with just the clothes on their backs. They worked factory jobs their entire life and never made much more than minimum wage.

I scraped and saved to buy my first computer and teach myself about the internet. We were never given anything from anyone.

<comment><USER28> While I don't necessarily agree with parent comment, I don't think this is a refutation. I can tell you right now that the majority of poor families in the US provide less STEM encouragement compared to well-off families. While your anecdote is warming, I don't think it is very representative.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> In all my years of interviewing people I have only interviewed a black person twice. I hired one of them and the other turned me down. I'm sure I've screened out some in the phone conversation stage but it's impossible to know for sure.

I sometimes wonder about this. I don't think I've ever discounted someone based on their name or how they spoke, but it would also be difficult for me to determine that. I also don't recall but a few black students in CS or SE during undergrad. Are black people extremely underrepresented in CS fields, in general?

It's also impossible to not guess when you see a name or hear someone talk. If I saw a peculiar name or heard a peculiar accent I would be curious to hear their story. I can try to ignore that impulse but the fact of the matter is if I saw the name "Steven White" I would be surprised if a black man or woman walked in the room. It would be hard for me to hide that surprise from my face.

</comment><comment><USER37> My personal take is that there is still a massive global problem with racism and more generally prejudice that reinforces social inequality. I actually think it is not just a problem for black people (although this is a primary example, and I do not mean to say that all prejudicial treatment is equivalent) but for many different groups. For example, my fairly poorly informed understanding is that in some large segments of Chinese population racism against all other groups is very popular. And also for example Han versus non-Han, although that may be more of an ethnic distinction, which to me is a flavor of the same.

Or for example there seems to be a very strong stereotype for Americans as being lazy, unintelligent, and gun-toting. So I guess these are not all the same concept, but different types of prejudice.

It feels like a fairly monumental task to reduce prejudice and the inequalities that it reinforces.

</comment><comment><USER38> Black developer here. Couldn't imagine after conducting a talk, attendees asking technical questions to my non-techincal peers. Thats a serious slap to the face.

</comment><comment><USER39> I don't know who is right, but I always think it's always good to look at important issues from multiple points of views.

If anyone is interested in understanding another point of view, check out Tucker Carlson. He has black guests on all the time who make a pretty good counter-case and provide their perspective.

</comment><comment><USER40> Here's my relevant anecdote:

I was working in a large telecoms company in Amsterdam when we had a problem with some hardware that needed fixed. Someone came over to fix it the next morning and after a few hours it still wasn't resolved. I then asked my colleague who had been with the technician if it was likely to get fixed soon. He said something about how terrible the technician was and that got me confused as my colleague wasn't a hardware guy and I didn't quite know how he had assessed the technician. I pressed him a bit more and he said something like "you haven't seen him have you"? Which made me wonder - so is there something about this technician which will make it obvious on seeing him that he is bad? No prizes for guessing the first thing I noticed about the man when I went down to the server room.....

</comment><comment><USER41> It's a travesty that this was flagged off the front page. The topic is directly relevant to the tech industry and we actually have some really good discussion in the comments. Sigh...

</comment><comment><USER42> This isn't going to be a popular sentiment here, but I think Ibrahim's experiences shows why diversity training is important. It's 2020; there is no reason for things like this happen:

> I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a > whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you > must be in the wrong room."

> I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone."

I often hear complaints that diversity training is largely cosmetic and doesn't get at the root of the problem. To some extent that is true: teaching people not to act surprised when they encounter a black software engineer is an interim strategy while we all work on making diversity unsurprising (because commonplace). But as this op-ed shows, seemingly small foot-in-mouth "gaffs" can be surprisingly hurtful, and they are largely correctible with training. Such training is best understood as one component in what is (or ought to be) a broader social project — but it's an important component, especially now.

<comment><USER43> I think one of the problems with public discourse right now is that we're failing to separate a number of important topics. This problem—the cumulative effect of racial attitudes on the lived experience of black people—deserves to be considered on its own, but is often conflated with police reform and the activity of explicitly racist groups. I think you're right that the best tool to combat this problem specifically is awareness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I feel like we are all ignoring the fact that literally any perceived disrespect can be blamed on racism, especially if you've been conditioned to look for it, and it's often impractical or impossible to prove otherwise, particularly once the mob has mobilized.

Being told you're a victim all your life can make you feel like a victim, even when you aren't. And now that victimhood is currency, all I see as a foreigner looking in is a growing unilateral justification for the oppression and deliberate marginalization of whites. Young white boys are already being left behind in school.

You don't solve oppression with oppression.

<comment><USER45> Yeah, we're in a weird world where there is still some residual racism (which is not evenly distributed -- some areas being worse than others), but so does all of this weird overcompensation for the fact that racism exists in the world.

I've seen some minorities (especially of medium brown skin tone) talk about being asked what their ethnicity is, and being offended by that. I've also had that happen, being a strange looking mix of asian/hispanic/white, but didn't ever know that I should be offended by a question like that. So I just answered their question without even thinking twice about it -- sometimes returning the question and starting a broader conversation about family history. If I had been told that kind of question was inappropriate earlier in my life though, then I might have gone around being offended... and honestly I'm glad I didn't have that idea put in my head.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I'd hire either of you, if you kick ass on the take home challenge. Work and teamwork matters. Everything else has no place in the work place.

<comment><USER47> You don't ask the first meal for free when you go to the restaurant, do you?

<comment><USER48> If I was looking to drop hundreds of thousands on a catering company, when the relationship could net them millions and millions over the future years, hell yes I'd expect samples to be part of the sales process.

<comment><USER47> CV is your free sample. If you order the full meal, prepare to pay for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> I have to say I find the featured developer Ibrahim racist. He appears to view everything through race and has a special affinity towards other people who share his race. He also projects that black people are hired accidentally rather than hired on merit. I find his perspective deeply disturbing.

</comment><comment><USER50> I have a hard time believing that ppl couldn't place him by his name alone...

Not saying it should work that way, but his name quiet obviously betrays him as not white.

Also if you wanna claim Syrians or Lebanese ppl are light skinned... the % of Americans who know that is low double digits.

</comment><comment><USER51> Not to be harsh but the only evidence he actually gives is: there weren't many other black developers...which isn't surprising given how few black people study CS.

Like getting offended when someone says: "I couldn't tell where you are from"...is odd. I get that...and I am white, I just have an accent that is dissimilar to the place where I live (I am from "here" but people think I am not...everytime I go into this shop, literally everytime, the guy asks me if I am on holiday...I don't think I know that he is a xenophobe because he asks me that). If you come from Guinea...yes, people are going to ask questions and say stuff about that.

A lot of it sounds like hypotheticals...him saying, if you are black then this will happen...which is a really negative way of thinking (it is like saying if you are fat, you will get abused in the street...maybe it will happen but that stuff happens to non-fat people too, and saying that being fat is the reason kind of disguises that).

Also, I think most people have experience of being the "only" something at their workplace. You will work some places and have nothing in common with anyone...it happens.

Irregardless of the above, I struggle to see what could be different for some people not to have a problem. Some people have a very unrealistic interpretation of how other people live their lives. Everyone always has more friends, more luck, more money, their boss is nicer, the air they breathe is cleaner, etc.</comment>


Ask HN: What have you completed in 2015 - <AUTHOR> What have you completed in 2015 or are looking to release in 2016.  I use completed loosely. Would love to hear some progress to motivate me into the new year. <comment><USER2> A lot of open-source stuff. The best ones were:

\- [https://github.com/IonicaBizau/git- stats](https://github.com/IonicaBizau/git-stats) (January, 2015) \- [https://github.com/IonicaBizau/node- cobol](https://github.com/IonicaBizau/node-cobol) (October, 2015) \- [https://github.com/IonicaBizau/gridly](https://github.com/IonicaBizau/gridly) (December, 2015)

Working part-time (~100 hours / month) for the company I work for, I still have enough "free" time when I do: open-source stuff, JavaScript training, playing piano, playing with high-voltage (!), playing with chemistry explosions and experiments (in fact making fire almost anywhere, anytime).

One of this year goals was to drop out of college. I did it two months ago. Since officially I'm still a student (my documents are at the university), I'm still getting loans because of my good results from my previous year. But I don't regret this decission at all (at least, until now!).

All the thanks go to God! I enjoy being a Jesus follower. I believe this world is not our home. God prepares for us a better world. Until then, I'm happy to love Him. Actually, being a believer and web developer is a nice combination.

Wish you a happy 2016! :-)</comment>


Oberon – The Overlooked Jewel - <AUTHOR> http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz/Site/pubs-pdf/BC03.pdf <comment><USER2> _The most important influence throughout was of course Wirth's insistence on simplicity of design, which finally seems to be finding a resonance in the world of computing. I believe that Wirth's ultimate impact will be felt even stronger ten years from now than it is today, and that the legacy of his accomplished career devoted to The Art of Simplicity will be enduring._

Simplicity is so underrated in this industry. I once went on an interview, where the developers at the company, insisted that I had to know every obscure detail of a languadge to be a master. To which I replied that clever code does not make it elegant code and by opting for fringe programming practices, over simpler more elegant solutions, that they where, in fact, unnecessarily complication their development process. The lesson seemed to go over their head and needless to say they where not interested in my advice. It's funny, in my experience, I have seen the developers that consistently deliver, usually parallel the developers that provide the simplest, most elegant solutions. Gold plating is such a problem in our industry, it is nice to see someone adhere to the doctrine of simplicity. It is an art unto itself.

</comment><comment><USER3> Fwiw, ETH Zurich (where Oberon was developed) ships emulated versions of the Project Oberon operating system that can run under various modern platforms: <http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/>

Wirth and his collaborator Jürg Gutknecht also wrote a book about the project: [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201544288/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201544288/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=abxxm-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0201544288)

</comment><comment><USER4> <http://www.oberon.ch/blackbox.html>

</comment><comment><USER5> It's great to see a researcher with such passion and _love_ for his subject. I never knew about Oberon -- my only exposure to this side of the universe was programming Pascal in high school. This was a great read.

</comment><comment><USER6> Great article. I have always been impressed by Oberon.

Anyone know how to get in contact with Michael Franz ?

<comment><AUTHOR> See <http://www.ics.uci.edu/~franz/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> not one line of code in the pdf ...

</comment><comment><USER8> Completely off-topic, but if you ever get the chance to indulge in Bell's Oberon, please do. Just the smell of this beer takes me back to spring/summertime in Ann Arbor.</comment>


Eclipse balloons to study effect of Mars-like environment on life - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2017-07-eclipse-balloons-effect-mars-like-environment.html <comment><USER2> The study is just hitching a ride on the balloons, which are more of a (admittedly cool) PR stunt. The eclipse has nothing to do with the actual study.</comment>


Obama's former adviser ridicules statement that NSA doesn't spy on Americans - Suraj-Sun http://rt.com/usa/us-obama-surveillance-snowden-296/

<comment><AUTHOR> Come on. Russia Today is well acknowledged to be a media arm of the Kremlin. Just because this article preaches to the choir doesn't mean we should be promoting this as a legitimate journalistic source. This sort of stuff isn't new and doesn't really belong on HN anyway.

</comment><comment><USER2> The opinion of the former advisor on green jobs is not relevant to anyone aside from the RT editorial staff.</comment>


Guy Finds StarCraft Source Code and Returns It to Blizzard - <AUTHOR> https://kotaku.com/guy-finds-starcraft-source-code-and-returns-it-to-blizz-1794897125 <comment><USER2> It looks like someone found a copy of Blizzard's copyrighted source code, returned it to Blizzard, and got a reward. Why are people upset about this? It seems like the right thing to do to my mind. If someone found a copy of my own source laying in the street I'd be very happy if they returned it instead of releasing it on the net.

<comment><USER3> It's not normal source code.

It's not like you found the source to the latest Halo game or something.

This is like finding the source to the original Halo game, of little to no commercial value but of immense cultural value.

Where possible these artefacts are archived so they will be around long after the companies have folded.

Unfortunately it's just not possible most of the time as companies end up taking their software to the grave.

Which makes this all the more depressing. This was an incredibly rare opportunity to archive something of cultural significance to millions of people, completely wasted because it fell into the hands of someone not equipped to deal with the situation properly or contact someone that does.

<comment><USER2> But in this case, that's Blizzard's right. They own it whether you like it or not. Just because something is important doesn't mean they should lose property rights to it.

Abandonware is a thing and I remember there being some legal headway made recently in that respect, but Starcraft isn't abandoned. They just released a compatibility patch and made it free to download.

<comment><USER3> I'm not talking about distribution, merely archiving.

I don't think it's reasonable to argue against archiving when it clearly has cultural significance.

<comment><USER4> There's absolutely no chance in hell the dude saying he sent a copy to archive.org would have stopped those reddit threads from foaming at the mouth. People want the code, not the archive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Damn people are tearing this guy apart, the reddit threads are particularly brutal. It's a video game.

The finder has no obligation to risk legal trouble so that a game can be modified, played, or even preserved. I'm all for archiving these sorts of things, and agree there's probably no great reason to keep the source private.

But if I have the (likely) stolen property of a large company and they ask for its return, I'm sure as hell not going to go all cowboy to make some enthusiasts happy.

<comment><USER3> It's actually pretty simple. If you find yourself in the same situation:

1\. Rip disk 2\. Send to archive.org 3\. Mail disk to Blizzard.

Blizzard will destroy this copy or at least make sure it never circulates again, by sending it to archive.org you have relieved yourself of the burden of releasing it. They may or may not choose to release it but they will at least keep it archived so that if Blizzard is to be lost then history will not be lost with it.

<comment><USER6> You'd still get in trouble for making that copy and distributing it.

<comment><USER7> you're not distributing it and I'd trust the people at the Internet Archive to keep it anonymous and Do the Right Thing.

<comment><USER8> Yes, and when Blizzard notice that exact same source code you have conveniently appeared on the internet a few months later from an anonymous source, I'm confident they won't inform the police and sue me to fuck.

<comment><USER9> So send it to Blizzard anonymously as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Fair chance Blizzard expected he had at least made a copy. Their being so generous with gifts and inviting him to speak with him personally seems to me a desperate effort to generate even more loyalty in him, which is actually really smart. It's their best chance for very little money and effort to prevent this source code to circulate on the internet.

</comment><comment><USER11> Heart breaking relevant reddit threads:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/640iem/foun...](https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/640iem/found_a_starcraft_gold_master_from_1998/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/68xzxt/star...](https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/68xzxt/starcraft_gold_master_source_code_update/)

<comment><USER12> It's a very twisted train of thought going on here. I had to dig a bit deeper in that thread to find them, but here is an example:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/68xzxt/star...](https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollecting/comments/68xzxt/starcraft_gold_master_source_code_update/dh3sds0/)

<comment><USER13> Go ahead and disagree with that train of thought, but I don't see how it's 'twisted' to call him selfish.

You can call the venom in those posts twisted, but that is a _very_ different thing from saying the actual reasoning behind the posts is twisted.

<comment><USER2> Selfish for following the law and respecting the wishes of the authors of a work? Jesus, people are really performing some mental gymnastics to justify the hypothetical theft of property in this case in order to arrive at the conclusion that the finder is somehow being selfish.

<comment><USER13> Sometimes, not most of the time but sometimes, the wishes of an author are bad for the public. In a hypothetical scenario where an author wants to destroy all traces of their work, it's a bad thing to help them.

And this is about the data, and possible copyright violations, not the theft of property. Him returning the physical disk is perfectly fine. So throw out that argument.

It's really very straightforward. No gymnastics.

<comment><USER14> Brahms destroyed a whole bunch of his works out of his own insecurity that they were not good enough. Brahms is now long dead but his (that were not destroyed) works live on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Wtf? Who make a "gold disc" for source code?? Wouldn't the gold master be compiled code? And who the fuck makes a "gold source" disc that's also "professionally printed"? That implies they gave the source to somebody to have the CD made. Yeah right. Also, the game takes up most of a CD, the assets would use far more space than that.

There's so many holes in this story, it's obvious bullshit and everyone is soaking it up. 100% chance this is a lame viral marketing stunt to drum up interest in StarCraft remastered. It's clearly paid placement, and frankly a bit sensational to even be possible.

Blizzard is known for quietly paying people for product placement and bullshit stories like this. Don't be sheeple.

Edit: I did some reading and other sources actually name the person and mention he's a game collector (with pictures of some of his collection). Surprisingly, this looks to be legit.

[http://www.dualshockers.com/2017/05/03/long-lost- starcraft-g...](http://www.dualshockers.com/2017/05/03/long-lost-starcraft- gold-master-disc-found-20-years/)

<comment><USER16> _Who make a "gold disc" for source code_

The company I used to work for always made an archive copy of the exact source code we had compiled for each major release, so that there would never be any doubt about exactly which source code we had compiled to make each version of our game.

 _And who the fuck makes a "gold source" disc that's also "professionally printed"?_

That disc does not look professionally printed. It looks like it was printed on one those cd-rom inkjet printers that where so popular back in the day.

<comment><USER15> Fair points, but I don't think CD-R was ever used as a serious archive format. Even back then it was known that the inks were prone to fading.

I just think the likelihood of the source being in this format is extremely low and when coupled with the timing of this article it's all but certain that this is a marketing piece.

Looking at the reddit user that found this disc... He was looking for a job at a "big name" tech employer a few months back, and he's definitely into gaming. He mentioned that blizzard told him the disc was stolen, which would be slightly more believable if returning it prompted an investigation rather than showering him with gifts.

<comment><USER16> _I don 't think CD-R was ever used as a serious archive format._

Oh it absolutely was. Maybe we shouldn't have and it might or might not have been good idea, but it was very common.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I can't find it viscerally in me to take moral issue with the guy releasing the code. I understand it belongs to Blizzard, but I just don't feel sorry for them. Not defending that, just stating a fact about the absence of an emotion in me.

That said: if you believe the guy would've been right to distribute the code, it follows that you believe the right thing for Blizzard to do is to release the code themselves. Instead of arguing morality here, one might spend one's energy articulating that argument to Blizzard instead.

</comment><comment><USER18> Thats C++ source from v1.00 pre-expansion, an early version that is quite not the polished game that v1.07/v1.08 was, written on pre-c++98 MSVC code by inexpirienced and overworked programmers, when win95 was the mainstream OS and 128mB of ram was plenty and 3D cards were luxury products(most used motherboard graphics).

[https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road- to-...](https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road-to-starcraft)

<comment><USER19> When Windows 95 was the Mainstream OS 32 MB was what most people had and 64mb was plenty. Most people used PCI or VLB 2D graphics cards. There was simply not enough memory on the board for IGU. Most PCs had not even got USB by that point.

<comment><USER18> People who couldn't afford video cards would use motherboard graphics. They were usually not fit for gaming, except for low-resource games, and 3D/2D accelerator cards were sought after. [http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1209125](http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1209125) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Integrated_Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Integrated_Systems) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_810](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_810) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel740](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel740)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I would never want to go up against blizzard legal, but I have a hard time with the "trade secret" bit when the box came from eBay. The guy didn't sign a contract with blizzard.

I have cds with intellectual property on them. It's not like he's copying it all willy nilly. No different than finding a manual of procedures for some random organization.

The only "real" risk seems to be possessing stolen property (maybe, could have been a gift or souvenir). But stolen 20 years ago and never reported.

I can't understand how keeping the disk is particularly bad. But good for them for giving it back. I think it belongs in a museum, but back home at blizzard is ok too.

<comment><USER21> > I would never want to go up against blizzard legal, but I have a hard time > with the "trade secret" bit when the box came from eBay. The guy didn't sign > a contract with blizzard.

From what he wrote, I don't think they said he was under legal obligation to return it to them. I think they said why they wanted him to, they asked nicely, and they thanked him afterward. Seems perfectly appropriate to me.

<comment><USER20> Corporations have a bad track record at preserving stuff like this. Celluloid movies are a great example. And blizzard already lost this one once. But, yeah, this is ok.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> You'd have to pay me way more money than that to keep such a pungent cultural artifact buried. What a shame!

<comment><USER23> I would have returned it after I made a personal copy... maybe.

<comment><USER24> Who is to say this guy didn't do the same :)

<comment><USER25> At that point that would be really stupid of him, since now they know who he is.

Instead creating posts and teasing other people (for karma?) he should just leak it. People are saying that it would be wrong etc. For goodness sake this thing is older than half of people on HN. Everything there is outdated and piracy-wise is not much worth.

Instead, preserving it to study and learn things about game development at that time would be far more valuable for the common good.

<comment><USER26> > Instead, preserving it to study and learn things about game development at > that time would be far more valuable for the common good.

Given the game recently went free to play and many people still play it, its not surprising blizzard are not releasing the source. If the game had been dead for 5-10 years, then sure, they should probably release the source. Its still going strong and shows no signs of stopping in the next 5-10 years, especially now due to the remaster.

There are plenty of other games out there to learn from using the source, if that's your goal.

> For goodness sake this thing is older than half of people on HN.

Are you saying that half of HN are younger than 19? I would have thought the average age on HN would be somewhere around 30. I would expect the average HN person was a kid or teenager when Starcraft was released.

<comment><USER27> > For goodness sake this thing is older than half of people on HN.

> Are you saying that half of HN are younger than 19? I would have thought the > average age on HN would be somewhere around 30. I would expect the average > HN person was a kid or teenager when Starcraft was released.

Maybe its a metaphor? A game of 19 years old could be say of 60 or 70 human age considering how fast game iterates.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> In other news, Blizzard pays less than $1000 to make sure modders can't make starcraft better than they can.

<comment><USER29> I am particularly confused by Blz's rationale.

Valve basically own a significant fraction of its success to community: CS (based on modder produce) Dota2 (bought from a modder); these 2 are their big revenue sources.

While Blz seems always intended to disallow any modder involvement at all. Most Tower Defense games own their popularity to the early days of SC and warcrfatIII. And Dota is basically just a warcraft III mod.

If Blz can learn anything from Valve, it's that they can capitalize on the fan/moder based community, really easy. They just never did anything like that.

On the contrary, they always want to redo what community did to drive off their creations...

This does not sound rational to me...

<comment><USER30> >Valve basically own a significant fraction of its success to community: CS (based on modder produce) Dota2 (bought from a modder); these 2 are their big revenue sources.

I simply do not understand this. Moders created an entirely new genre and basically brought Competitive Gaming to the masses, yet Blz won't allow modding on Overwatch. I've had discussions with people who support this and their rationale basically boils down to (1) they don't want to fracture the userbase and (2) they love the design and don't want to upset it. Both are ill founded. The userbase is in the millions and mods would get ppl like me to play again. Also, any graphical mods can simply run on my local machine, exactly like DotA2.

The game engine itself is superb and possibly hanfles/plays better than any other FPS with maybe Destiny being the only competition. There is no doubt modders would create a superior gaming experience. Learn from Bethesda

<comment><USER31> See, I think there's a huge difference between Activision Blizzard games and either Valve or Bethesda games. Sure, Valve and Bethesda have probably contributed more gaming experiences to the world across their many games and their liberal policy towards modding. There are only a few Blizzard games, but they're better and they make much more money. It's a tightly controlled experience, but the quality control means Blizzard fans will at least try almost every Blizzard game at some point. Can't say the same for Bethesda. Valve has fewer games, but the experiences are not as different as say, Hearthstone and Overwatch.

<comment><USER32> >but they're better

Citation needed.

I've played a ton of AAA multiplayer games over the years. Hearthstone is hands down the worst one that I've given a fair chance to (>20-30 hours of playtime). To say that it's better than Counter-Strike (which many regard as the epitome of competetive FPS gaming and has stood the test of time in that role for almost as long as Starcraft has done the same for RTS) is an absolute joke.

<comment><USER33> To compare a turn based CCG to a competitive FPS is an absolute joke.

To generalize your dislike of a CCG, one of Blizzard's multiple games, into an argument against GP is a joke.

Whether modders would make as positive an impact in HS as they did in Valve games is very unclear, and I say that as the author of a Hearthstone simulator and founder of a community and company heavily involved in Hearthstone modding, reverse engineering and third party tooling.

<comment><USER32> GP outright stated that Blizzard's games are better than Valve's and Bethesda's because of their strict control over quality/lack of community content.

My point is that Hearthstone is an objectively worse game than Counter-Strike is, in the same way tic-tac-toe is inferior to Chess in almost all respects. I'm not denying Hearthstone is fun, and makes a metric ton of money. I play it a reasonable amount and have spent money on it. But it's not a good game.

I don't see how providing a direct counter-example to an argument is 'generalising', but whatever.

<comment><USER33> Overwatch is a far, far better game than TF2 (also a far better comparison) and I would definitely say that one of the drivers for that is Blizzard's quality control.

<comment><USER34> Or it could be that Overwatch is 9 years newer.

<comment><USER33> You mean, that TF2 has had a 9 years headstart in improving and polishing their game's design, add more content etc?

<comment><USER34> It's hard to throw out core principles or do massive overhauls without starting over. At that point it's no longer a patch. They had many years to consider what made a game good, and what to improve on, and modernize concepts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Many are blaming him for not releasing the source code anonymously. Do you really think he had the knowledge to do that safely? He would have already done that if he could. It's really simple, don't play with fire if you don't know how to handle it.

<comment><USER14> How would you release something anonymously? Tor?

<comment><USER35> TOR seems to be the best option. But even I don't know much regarding the best practices.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> What has happened to the pirate spirit that used to exist in this country? That was found booty, nothing more, nothing less. What a shame. Guess I'd better send back to Microsoft that copy of "Chicago" I got from the U. of Florida servers back in the day.

</comment><comment> d--b Come on guys... Had any of you made Starcraft, you'd be very happy to have the disc back. Blizzard's behaved ok I believe in flying the guy to blizzcon and giving him the perks he got.

While it's interesting to have the code, there's probably nothing really amazing about it. However, the game is still being played, so releasing the source code may help people cheat.

</comment><comment><USER37> Wow, this thread. Plenty of people insisting on gaining access to source code they didn't write and had no part in developing.

News flash: it's not your product, you don't own it, and you have no rights to insist on hijacking someone else's product for your own gain.

<comment><USER38> > News flash: it's not your product, you don't own it, and you have no rights > to insist on hijacking someone else's product for your own gain.

Shit: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Fox_vault_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Fox_vault_fire)

Happens: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_MGM_vault_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_MGM_vault_fire)

If something is culturally significant then it should be preserved and these two hyperlinks should easily make the case that preservation requires distribution.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Karma is a ... -- Being honest had always been having its perks for me too

<comment><USER40> Honest about what?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> n-gate.com is so gonna love this thread

</comment><comment><USER42> I think we are mixing two terms here: Intelectual Property and Trade Secrets.

The code doesn't seem protected by intellectual property but it's a trade secret. Just like Mona Lisa was intellectual property of Leonardo, but the way he created the different paint colours was his trade secret.

A trade secret don't necessarily have to be protected by law, the moment it gets out, then people are free to use it as they see fit. That's what I think about this source code: it got out somehow (even if the way it got out was illegal or not), but the moment it comes to public it becomes general knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER43> and not long afterwards they re-release the game for free with a new installer.

looks like they finally found that long lost source code.

</comment><comment><USER44> This article breaks my heart to read.

<comment><USER45> Totally. He could've seeded a torrent and uploaded to Mega from a coffeeshop and no one would've known.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is why there are two types of people. Those that ruin it for everybody else, and those that don't. What a dunce.

</comment><comment><USER47> I wouldn't have returned the source code for 10000$, let alone a measly 250$.

<comment><USER48> Have you considered a career as a kidnapper? Taking it a bit too far but think about the why. The code is proprietary regardless.

<comment><USER47> Giving back the source code is like burying an ancient Egyptian mummy you just found. Of course the Pharaohs would protest you taking away the mummy but who cares? It is about preserving culture and making its intricate details visible to everyone.

<comment><USER48> Not like that at all. The source is Blizzard's intellectual property, doesn't matter where you found it (not to mention you're overestimating the cultural value of the source files).

If culture is to be preserved I'm sure some of the original developers would make so. On the other hand, we could definitely do with shorter IP rights like 20-30 years, so that devs could legally release it within their lifetimes.

<comment><USER13> >The source is Blizzard's intellectual property

The tomb and its contents are the property of the Pharaoh in it.

<comment><USER49> Except the Pharaoh would still be alive(!?) in this case.

<comment><USER13> The source code will be Blizzard IP for a long time after the coders are dead.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Kelly Slater built a man-made wave that could change surfing forever - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/12/19/kelly-slater-built-a-man-made-wave-that-could-change-surfing-forever/ <comment><USER2> Looking forward to decent surfing outside the main surfing geographies (Pacific Ocean).

I've always wondered why more locales didn't simply copy the standing wave in Munich. Seems easy to copy.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisbach_(Isar)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisbach_\(Isar\))

Sure, it's not a barrel, but it's still a commercially viable way to enable surfing anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't think it will change surfing but it may contribute greatly in making this an Olympic sport... or perhaps create surf stadiums for contest a circuit?

<comment><USER4> >>> it may contribute greatly in making this an Olympic sport

This alone does changes surfing; surfing as an industry I mean.

<comment><USER3> As Industry I agree, people in Oklahoma, Kentucky, New Delhi or Serbia can all be surfers now. I would pay $200 an hour for that wave!</comment></comment></comment>


Navy files for patent on room-temperature superconductor - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2019-02-navy-patent-room-temperature-superconductor.html <comment><USER2> Fascinating. I'd put a bit more faith in this one on the grounds that 1) the Navy probably wouldn't waste legal cycles on filling this one if it hadn't been reduced to practice, and 2) there looks like there's still energy lost to heat, if I'm reading correctly:

> An electromagnetic coil is circumferentially positioned around the coating > such that when the coil is activated with a pulsed current, a non-linear > vibration is induced, enabling room temperature superconductivity.

I'm presuming there's still energy loss taking place with the coil that wraps the wire. So it seems you enable superconductivity and some of its associated benefits but you're still going to have some energy loss since it's... for lack of a better term, an active superconductor rather than a passive one.

I wonder if the heat output of the coil is drastically reduced compared to the heat you'd get from electrifying e.g. the sort of cable this seeks to replace?

<comment><USER3> > _the Navy probably wouldn 't waste legal cycles on filling this one if it > hadn't been reduced to practice_

I'm not so sure I share your prior that the Navy works carefully to avoid doing anything wasteful of manpower.

<comment><USER4> Yes, plus they might just have some data that looks that it might somehow work and they just wanted to slap a patent on it in case it ever works.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Anonymous experts from Slashdot have found out that the filer has a fabulous history of patent filings for perpetual motion engines.

<comment><USER6> link?

<comment><USER7> [https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2019/02/if-these-us-navy- paten...](https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2019/02/if-these-us-navy-patents-are- made-then-we-are-in-a-star-trek-technology-world.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'll believe it when I see the data.

</comment><comment><USER9> No

</comment><comment><USER10> Betteridge's law probably applies.

<comment><USER11> Actual title of the article is "Navy files for patent on room-temperature superconductor"

Hopefully dang or some other mod can fix the title

<comment><USER12> Yes. Submitted title was "Did a US Navy Scientist Just Invent a Room- Temperature Superconductor?".

Submitters: the site guidelines ask, "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait".

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)</comment></comment></comment>


Musical Instrument: the PANArt hang - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHPmXcAVCY

<comment><USER2> Go full monty. Flip it over and buy a full steal drum (tenor) pan.</comment>