Wealthy Buyers Reportedly in "Mad Rush" to Leave San Francisco - <AUTHOR> https://www.sfgate.com/living-in-sf/article/Wealthy-buyers-in-mad-rush-to-leave-SF-15324574.php <comment><USER2> This article is pretty light on data, and mainly relies on the latest experience from a couple of real estate agents.

Sometimes "word on the street" is the best you can get. But for now I'd say the headline is clickbait "mad rush", a very extreme conclusion given the scarcity of data.

Another micro data point - I'm not a real estate agent but I do watch local sales. I live south of 280 near the excelsior, not a fashionable address in SF to be sure. Everything is selling fairly quickly, inventory is low, and this is true of houses listed during the covid closure. However the effects may still be delayed and wouldn't reflect the real estate effects of recent demonstrations and riots.

<comment><USER3> Found this interesting and it made me question my not-so-scientific tracking of the LA market, which is not exhibiting the same behavior as SF (may just be behind SF, but right now it's the opposite in LA.

[http://socketsite.com/archives/2020/06/inventory-levels- in-s...](http://socketsite.com/archives/2020/06/inventory-levels-in-san- francisco-nearing-another-milestone.html)

[https://www.dailybreeze.com/2020/06/07/coronavirus- rebound-s...](https://www.dailybreeze.com/2020/06/07/coronavirus-rebound- socal-housing-jump-up-from-worst-april/)

<comment><USER4> Unlike SF, LA as a whole is not obscenely over-priced. There are still many nice parts of LA that are relatively affordable for dual-income households (and single-income households, if you adjust your expectations).

Also, it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. While LA's population is more than 50% larger than the SF Bay Area's population, LA is geographically much larger so there's more space to build housing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We've been seeing this in both San Francisco and New York and every week it just seems to increase. Most of our moving company partners who never pay attention to any data are also starting to notice a pattern of wealthy residents moving out.

[https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/sf-outbound- surge-2020/](https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/sf-outbound-surge-2020/)

[https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/new-yorkers-relocate-post- co...](https://www.movebuddha.com/blog/new-yorkers-relocate-post-coronavirus/)

<comment><USER6> Could this be a sampling effect? If you have traction in SFBA then many of the moving searches you see will necessarily be out of SFBA. And conversely: if you don't have broad coverage, you won't see searches from the hinterlands about moving to large metros.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> There's some good articles discussing how after a major natural disaster, cities aren't really fundamentally derailed in how much they rebound to success vs. slide into oblivion by the actual disaster.

To spell it out more concretely, it's suggested that if a city is vital and people want to live there, a disaster will not hurt that growth and city's long-term trajectory. Physical damage, or even population damage will recover and people will still move there to be around other productive people.

On the other hand, if a city was already losing its vitality and drive and attractiveness, no amount of stimulus afterwards will stop it. People simply don't want to live and work there, or be part of the city's growth. The examples (I'll try to dig up the articles) were:

\- Kobe after their earthquake (stimulus and reinvestment did not stop a general decline of that city that was happening long before the earthquake)

\- New York, after natural disasters, 9/11, etc. (the city rebounded and people continued moving there no matter the physical aftereffects)

So for SF, you ask, aside from this virus situation, what was San Francisco and California incentivizing people to do? It has been a confused message. Tech and jobs, weather, and pleasant environment clearly drive SF's growth and attractiveness. However, homelessness, traffic, zoning, high housing prices/unaffordability, all the problems of SF that the supervisors have been too ineffective to tackle meaningfully, drive unattractiveness.

I think the virus (like any other natural disaster) just exposes to a greater extent what people really think and are likely to do about a city.

San Francisco (and any other city's) fate was made long before the current situation, and short-term popular messages of "we will get through this and get stimulus money or reform x,y,z" generally will not outweigh the years and decades of what the city had set up for itself up to now. Personally though, I think SF + Bay Area will manage to slide (survive) through it, despite many faults, because it's been fundamentally a desireable place to be.

<comment><USER8> This largely depends on remote work right? These people arent moving across the country, they are going to Marin, or maybe Tahoe. If the business is still centered in this area, they wont move quick.

Also, SF isnt the only issue with homelessness etc. Cupertino has their "first" homeless camp, solely because they used to live unseen in ravines, under bridges and have been kicked out of there

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's hilarious to me how hard people keep pimping this notion of people abandoning the SF Bay Area. As long as I've visited this site there's been a constant rotation of here's why people are leaving.. Feels like a good portion of the population is forever waiting for California's comeuppance for whatever reason.

<comment><USER10> It's the CA dream, to be able get out and escape from the Bay area and CA but no one has been able to realize it. But, with covid-19 and the subsequent possiblity of work from home, it reignites the possibility of that dream.

<comment><USER2> Fascinating. I'm pushing 50, and I've lived almost my entire life in San Francisco. It really wasn't that long ago that the benefit to working in tech was that you get to live in San Francisco. In fact, people considered the livability (and social tolerance) of San Francisco to be key factors in why SF became the center of the tech world.

Now, it seems like the dominant narrative has shifted: the downside to working in tech is that you have to live in San Francisco. Brutally high housing prices and severely deteriorating mental health and addiction conditions on the streets are big factors in this, I'm sure.

Nonetheless, there are few problems so severe that they are completely resistant to hyperbole, and you get a lot of that in the "I hate SF" rants. Much of SF's extraordinary livability remains. I still have beautiful days here.

To me, though, SF's advantages have eroded. First, the uniquely urban pleasures are diminished by street conditions in many of the very urban neighborhoods that set SF apart from everywhere in the US outside New York (which exists on an entirely different urban scale). The diversity and cultural options that were once hard to find outside SF are more more widely available in smaller, more livable cities (try to get a good espresso west of the Mississippi a couple generations ago, and you'll find North Beach is more than a historical curiosity - in 2020, you can get this in a strip mall). SF's opera is pretty exceptional for a small city, and again, outside NY, it may be the best (and NY is a long way from the west coast). But cultural options have expanded in smaller cities, even if they are somewhat more limited, and how often do you go to the opera, really?

And SF has become so, so, so expensive. I just think the good life is more attainable elsewhere - and high rents limit your life and creativity in serious ways, and quite a bit of what SF had to offer is largely available elsewhere. Maybe not all, but quite a bit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Eh, I'll care more if/when it's a long term trend. Immediately after 9/11 people predicted it was the end of NYC because everyone was going to leave. And some did! But it wasn't long before the city rebounded. It's always the rich that are first to move because they have the means to. They'll also have the means to move back again pretty quickly should they wish to.

<comment><USER12> It may be finally happening in New York. The _Times_ has had a pretty steady stream of stories over the last few months about people just being fed up with the city, and getting out. Especially long-term residents.

/Ex-New Yorker

<comment><USER13> Every person I know under 40 who is/was living in Manhattan has had a post- pandemic moment of clarity about the cost/benefit ratio of living there. Most enjoy the vibrancy of the city (nightlife, especially the shoulder-to-shoulder raucous kind, is not returning any time soon) and the proximity to their job (most are working from home for the rest of the year, possibly indefinitely). When you remove the social and career draw of the city, it really changes the equation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> To me it seems that SF is still fairly safe. In my opinion a lot of people don't understand who SF is 'for' these days.

It's not for poor people (no doubt) and it's not really for billionaires either, for people so untethered from jobs and material needs that place is irrelevant.

If you can pick up and pay cash for a Tahoe house tomorrow, sure, you might leave. But that resident was never very plentiful. They might make for an interesting anecdote, but in the big picture, they don't matter.

SF's core value, today, is for this person:

You work for Google, or Apple, for FaceBook, or an accomplished startup. You are a senior engineer or an executive. You may have gone to an Ivy League. You want to live in a fun, world-class, brand-name city - but not Palo Alto or San Jose. Where can you go?

San Francisco is pretty much alone in its category here, as the type of city that type of person likes. There's no good substitute in the area; "a really clean Starbucks and a top-notch Target" ain't it, and will never be it.

While there may be fluctuations in house sales and so forth, I think SF will continue to rank highly with that demographic. And as long as that's true, housing prices will be safe.

<comment><USER15> > You work for Google, or Apple, for FaceBook, or an accomplished startup.

The irony is that none of those companies have a real presence in the city. Their campuses are miles away. So you live in the city and ride on a tour coach down to your megaplex every day.

I don't know why anyone strives to live a life like this.

<comment><USER16> Google and Facebook have offices in SF proper, and YouTube is located just south in San Bruno. "none ... have a real presence" is a considerable overstatement.

Though yes, a large number of employees _do_ travel south from SF daily.

The larger issue is that the Peninsula and South Bay have resisted housing densification and transport improvements for decades.

<comment><USER17> It's really not an overstatement. They have some sales offices and some execs like having offices the city so they don't have to commute --but the great majority work in the the main campuses on the penn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > _buying a new home in an isolated haven in a nearby bucolic county is not an > option for lower-income San Francisco residents, and some believe the trend > is only exacerbating the wealth divide_

I thought the rent control crowd wanted the wealthy to leave?

</comment><comment><USER19> Is this a move OUT to the outer areas or just lack of demand in the city and increased in some outer areas?

I'm not sure it has to be one to the other...

Are these necessarily the same people and what kind of volume are we talking about?

</comment><comment><USER20> Real estate is regionally cyclical. People bounce between regions by moving to more favorable locations from time to time, but the trend often takes decades. That was the flight to the suburbs in the past and the city gentrification later on. It's not surprising a new flight to the burbs has started.

<comment><USER21> I disagree with the trend of people flocking to suburbs. I have no data to back this up but the trend seems to be more like folks choosing reasonable cost of living such as cities like Salt Lake, Minneapolis, Chattanooga, Rayleigh etc

<comment><USER20> It would take much longer and much more data to form a trend. Now is just all speculation. The first wave leaving would be people without strong ties to the Bay Area (layoff, no work, etc). They tend to leave for other regions, like you said. The second wave would be people still working in the region but cannot stand the deterioration in the big cities. They will move to the burbs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've been looking at data on movoto.com, looking at their inventory snapshot. For the past few months, you can see Housing inventory (SF) has increased very slightly and when you take into account the seasonality (inventory usually increases a little up until sept), it doesn't look unusual at all. There's NO unusually large increase in inventory. It's just super super low inventory, the same as it has been for the last 5 years, with no major difference in the last 3 months of covid-19.

In absolute terms, it's pretty crazy that there's only 252 houses in inventory, in a city of almost 900,000.

<comment><USER23> If they are wealthy enough, there is no reason to sell.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Title should be leave San Francisco County/City. The article mentions that many are moving to SF suburbs in the bay area (East Bay / South Bay / Peninsula /..etc).

</comment><comment><USER25> If you want to get out of CA altogether, the Willamette Valley in Oregon is beautiful and reasonable. Vinyards and nut farms, mountains, hiking, skiing, and beaches within 90 minutes. You can live as rural or urban as you like, depending how close to Portland you get. And you can even live in a small town and take the TriMet light rail into Portland for your urban fix every so often.

No, I'm not a realtor, just visit often.

</comment><comment><USER26> To each their own, but I suspect that some of those leaving may discover that the cultural and culinary options of, say, Lake Tahoe don't really measure up to San Francisco.

As for Reno, I've never hear there, but I hear that the primary source of entertainment there is to shoot a man just to watch them die…

<comment><USER27> Like many things in life, it's a cost/benefit analysis.

Moreover, those cultural and culinary options don't exist in a bubble. Supply is a product of demand.

<comment><USER26> Yes, but I don't think there will ever be sufficient demand density out there.

<comment><USER27> Quite possible, but I suspect that as time goes on, areas like SF may not have as much to offer as in years past.

<comment><USER26> I may have misunderstood your earlier remark. I thought you meant that the infrastructure in Lake Tahoe would improve, not that the one in SF would decline. I agree that the latter is possible, but I'm inclined to think that there will remain enough demand. My impression is that the housing boom in SF predates the jobs boom (people worked in the south bay, and just preferred living in SF).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> > Mill Valley listing [...] 13 bids and the home went over the $1.7 million > asking price by "a lot,"

1.7mm is not wealthy by local standards.

</comment><comment><USER29> warning: this article is originally from Bloomberg. I have never trusted them since the SuperMicro/Apple Big Hack unverified story.</comment>


"Google-Hosted Only" Chrome Extension Policy for Win Dev Channel and Mac in July - <AUTHOR> https://blog.chromium.org/2015/05/continuing-to-protect-chrome-users-from.html

<comment><AUTHOR> The Newspeak title of this article ("Continuing to protect Chrome users from malicious extensions") gives literally zero information on the actual changes, so I tried to summarize. Hopefully it doesn't get changed.</comment>


What's Next For Apple - Matt Mullenweg - <AUTHOR> http://ma.tt/2011/10/whats-next-for-apple/

<comment><USER2> Garmin are mentioned twice in the post, and they really have screwed up. 5yrs ago the GPS market was exploding but even then the writing was on the wall. Unfortunately, Garmin is such a conservative, engineering-led, company that it didn't, and apparently still doesn't, see that their future is doomed. No one actually loves their Nuvi, certainly not after using an iPhone - the devices feel like they come from different decades!

In fact, Garmin with their experience in aviation and marine navigation systems could have easily pivoted into the automotive systems space. Or they could have innovated with maps, navigation, routing, traffic, and so on. But they lack the design-led management to truly succeed as a consumer products company. It's a shame.

</comment><comment><USER3> Search is indeed a real big one. Google built Chrome and Android just so they could control the search box. Siri did away with the search box. _That's_ crossing a moat.

</comment><comment><USER4> With regard to maps, Apple acquired Placebase in 2009. ([http://techcrunch.com/2009/09/30/apple-gets-a-mapmaker- where...](http://techcrunch.com/2009/09/30/apple-gets-a-mapmaker-where-does- that-leave-google/))

</comment><comment><USER5> "Your phone becomes your credit card... Google will probably do this first"

Haven't they already done it with Google Wallet?</comment>


Coinbase Crosses 650,000 Users - <AUTHOR> http://blog.coinbase.com/post/70403865643/coinbase-crosses-650-000-users <comment><USER2> Speaking as someone who knows a lot about economics, I think PT Barnum put it best...[1]

Economics is very clear in predicting how this will end up. Bitcoins have no intrinsic value and therefore the long-term price will be precisely zero. Each generation has its tulips [2]; each generation claims that the persistence in tulip price means that there is permanent intrinsic value; each generation is disappointed [3].

The only thing interesting about bitcoins is that this provides an opportunity to watch a bubble: observe the justifications people make, observe how nay- sayers appear to be wrong, and watch the progression.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_sucker_born_every_m...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There%27s_a_sucker_born_every_minute)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania)

[3] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds)

<comment><USER3> I don't think "intrinsic value" is a term in economics. It's a term in investing.

Economics is far from clear about predicting how Bitcoin will end up. The professional economics world has yet to seriously weigh in about Bitcoin. I just searched the top 10 journals on this list: [http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/whorrace/journals.htm](http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/whorrace/journals.htm) and none of them appear to have anything published about Bitcoin.

That said, Bitcoin does have "intrinsic value" as a payment processor. Think about PayPal. There's two kinds of value in PayPal. First, they have their deposits, which are denominated in various different currencies, and which are backed by various governments and insured. Then there are the people, the servers, the contracts, the buildings, all the other stuff that's necessary for those deposits to actually move around the globe. Ebay didn't buy PayPal's deposits, which aren't really PayPal's, they belong to their customers, eBay bought PayPal's assets.

Think of Bitcoin like that stuff... a distributed payment processing company. It just as reliable as PayPal, except no one can ever freeze your account, and you can only transfer Bitcoins. PayPal was worth $1.5 billion to eBay, so that's a reference for your "intrinsic valuation" that you're working on.

You might be thinking "well PayPal wouldn't be useful if it could only transfer Bitcoins and the value of Bitcoin is $0 so there's a chicken and egg problem!" Except I don't see a scenario where Bitcoin goes to $0. Let's imagine Bitcoin crashes all the way down to $0.01. Bitcoin is still useful if you're trying to get money to your grandma in Cuba, or to pay your Latvian web development contractor. Maybe it's extremely volatile, but that's OK because you otherwise have no way to get your money where it needs to go, and you're only going to keep it in Bitcoins for a few days. You buy some Bitcoins, send where they're going, and the other side cashes them out.

Now why is this relevant? Well, if during those 4 days, there was $1,000,000 worth of money that people were trying to send this way, then there need to be at least $1m worth of Bitcoins to "float" those transactions. Essentially those people all show up on Monday being like "we don't care how much it costs because we're selling them again in three days, we just need $1m worth of Bitcoins to send to our grandma/contractor/etc". Therefore the "value" of Bitcoin goes up to at least $0.05 ($1m/21m).

This is just one of Bitcoin's many "intrinsic" values. It is the "payment processor of last resort" for everyone who falls through the cracks of Western Union/Paypal/etc. This creates a floor below which Bitcoin is unlikely to fall.

<comment><USER4> Why should I use Bitcoin as oppose to other digital currencies to send money to my grandma?

<comment><USER5> There is no central controlling authority you need to trust to not seize your digital currency.

<comment><USER6> Which has not traditionally been an issue when "sending money to grandma."

<comment><USER7> Suddenly, your grandmother does not live in the same country as you.

Have fun sending money to grandma.

<comment><USER6> Ok educate me, because I really don't know (my grandmothers both lived in the US): what's wrong with Western Union or PayPal for this purpose?

In many ways this simply moves the problem (overall complication) from a private sector solution much closer to a government solution because it means exchanging bitcoin for real currency will be intensely regulated and have its own fees associated with it.

And maybe someday bitcoin will be worth some monetary value other than the currencies you can exchange it for, but we are not near that.

<comment><USER8> _what 's wrong with Western Union?_

Speaking from experience: Western Union is _awful_. Absolutely horrible. They basically stole $50 from me after their representative typo'd a number and then didn't have the authority to fix it, and then I was asked to prove my transaction by faxing them a receipt which I hadn't kept, therefore losing my $50. Avoid them at all costs.

<comment><USER9> I am having difficulty picturing this situation.

The form you filled out when you sent the money had carbon copies, which are retained. If data from the form was mis-typed later, they should be able to check their copy, or you might be able to retrieve a copy from the outlet or receiver or something.

I assure you that no-one in WU is trying to steal $50 from you. Mistakes happen, but there is a paper trail, so if you really care, escalate. They operate under the supervision of your country's financial regulator, whom they are deathly afraid of, and are hardly going to risk their banking license pilfering fifty bucks.

<comment><USER8> The $50 was not worth spending literally hours on the phone with them trying to get the issue resolved. The point is that bitcoin has real value as a painless money transfer mechanism.

<comment><USER9> >Speaking from experience: Western Union is awful. Absolutely horrible. They basically stole $50 from me > Avoid them at all costs.

The point is that you wrote a very damning indictment of a company, accusing them of theft, and I pointed out they could probably fix your issue if you actually cared, even without the receipt. You then admitted you couldn't be bothered going through the process.

So what you wrote was basically a load of crap. But hey, bitcoin!

<comment><USER8> I was so goddamn pissed off that the phone rep, who could barely speak English, had typo'd my number, which I had been very, very careful to say slowly, and to repeat back to him twice, and then be asked to _prove_ myself by _faxing a physical piece of paper_ in order to get my money back, after a total time investment of > 3 hours, after taking into account driving to the store, waiting on hold, etc, that my mindset was very much "fuck this shit." So whatever you say, man. I didn't accuse them of theft. I accused them of being so excruciatingly awful that recovering the $50 was not worth spending more hours of my life dealing with phone reps who could not understand what I was saying.

<comment><USER9> Fair enough. That does sound pretty annoying, I'd probably be pissed off myself! Anyway, your later comments put your original comment into better perspective, so thanks for replying.

<comment><USER8> Ah, sorry I wasn't very clear. =)

<comment><USER10> I probably missed something obvious here. But what happens if you mistype a bitcoin address (or worse : someone intercepts your mail and gives a different address).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Incidentally, Coinbase's graph has an almost misleadingly modest aspect ratio. If you want to compare their growth to other growth graphs you've seen, compress it by at least half horizontally.

<comment><USER12> pg, if a reasonably intelligent person asked you to describe bitcoin, how would you do it? -if you'd humor me

I ask, because IMO much of the debate about bitcoin consists of people conflating and abusing definitions and talking past each other. As you are obviously interested in it, I wonder what you see, and perhaps what interests you most about it.

<comment><USER11> I would not be the one to ask. I don't understand the details of the protocol. All I could describe is the general idea of a cryptocurrency.

<comment><USER12> Ok. Thanks for the response.

In some sense I suppose that actually answers my question.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Congrats. Now, deal with the guy who gave you 35k and in return you gave him _nothing_.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6929705)

<comment><USER14> They did. Before you even posted this.

<comment><USER15> Their "dealing" with it was "oops, we rebooted a server and forgot to make sure transactions were run, here's $50 and enjoy your delayed trade".

After screwing up that badly they should have cancelled the order. Instead, they delivered coins paid for at $800+ at today's prices (~$500). I would be surprised, if BTC had jumped to $5000, if they'd have honored the $800 buy price.

The $50 credit is just inane, too. It's more of an insult to offer $50 than to offer no $ and a good apology. I'm not sure how they came to that decision.

Given their funding, they should have immediately taken full responsibility (let's be clear: a financial company's transactions didn't run cause they rebooted something...) and then offered to complete at the original price, or cancel the transaction - truly make the buyer whole. It'd be totally fine for them to do so, because if they fix their stuff, they won't need to worry about "jobs not running". So in this case, even giving the guy a 10% bonus would engender goodwill, as well as show the world they are _serious_ about handling transactions.

I'll resist any snide remarks about Coinbase using MongoDB.

Edit: It seems after further consideration, they decided to give him today's price since it was their mistake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Note the title is a bit misleading. They say 650,000 users but the next sentence they state

> "we crossed more than 650,000 consumer Bitcoin wallets"

I'm not familiar with their service but I have 20 or so wallets that I've accumulated over the past 20 months, so I'm guessing its entirely possible for a single user to have multiple wallets, infact its so common that I'd label it the norm.

I wonder what percentage of their users, and wallets hold any bitcoins?

<comment><USER17> You have 20 Coinbase wallets? Unlike regular bitcoin wallets, there's no reason to have more than one Coinbase wallet. A Coinbase wallet can have an unlimited number of Bitcoin addresses and it is generally tied to a real name with a bank account and/or credit card for purchasing and selling bitcoins.

<comment><USER18> Probably to avoid people associating ownership to one person as easily?

<comment><USER17> If you're worried about the association of your wallet with your identity, then almost all of Coinbase's services are off limits to you. There would be little reason to create a Coinbase account.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Kudos for a stunningly misleading graph. The manipulation of numbers is impressive.

Whats wrong with it? Bitcoin to USD has dropped by 50% in the last few days. By taking a "monthly average" and graphing that they've been able to hide this discrepancy.

However there is no legitimate reason to graph the "monthly average" instead of just the price. It's a line graph so it can deal with a range of numbers quite well. In fact the graph has a total of 6 data points for the BTC to USD line, the whiff of BS is strong on this one.

</comment><comment><USER20> Could someone visit coinbase's career page and confirm that the Apply buttons are not working. [https://coinbase.com/careers](https://coinbase.com/careers)

Coinbase has one of the more interesting legal positions I have come across in a long time (registration/licensing/compliance work) and I know I will be kicking myself a year from now if I did not make every effort.

<comment><USER21> They work, but they are "mailto:" links.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Congrats to them, but could a graph be more disingenuous than the one used there that shows Bitcoin prices?

<comment><USER23> At least it's labeled that the BTC-USD price is the daily average for the month.

<comment><USER24> Explains the timing of the blog post, the graph would look very different next month.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> 3.2% of seniors over 65 years old. I hope to be as engaged with innovation and have an early adopter spirit when I'm that old :)

</comment><comment><USER26> So the piece about more women was a little bit weird. It appears that as the broader market (made up of ~50% women) begins to use your product, you experience your demographic skew towards the broader markets' average demographic. Breathtaking.

<comment><USER27> I think they are trying to illustrate a move towards more mass-market appeal and reach. Depending on which data source you look at, females account for anywhere from 70 to 90+% of consumer purchase decisions in the US. If Coinbase wants to move from being the cryptocurrency enthusiast and tech speculator's toy to actually seeing significant product/service spend in Bitcoins with merchants, increasing their female userbase could definitely help.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Do you actually have to wire up a bank account in order to create a coinbase account? How many coinbase accounts actually have any money in them?

<comment><USER29> No money is actually in the coinbase account. It only stores Bitcoin. If you sell bitcoin, the USD balance will immediate be ACH'ed directly to the bank info you have set up.[1] Otherwise, I guess you won't be able to use the sell feature(?). BTC-e.com is different; you can sell all your coins and have a USD balance[2].

You can create a Coinbase account without banking info. But after you've created it, I'm not sure what good it would be to you. I guess you could just use it to manage your bitcoins and have one place to check. But the real service coinbase provides is transforming BTC to USD and vice-versa. If you're not going to enter your banking info to use that feature, you might as well generate a pub/priv key at bitaddress.org and just make sure you don't lose the private key.

1\. [http://i.imgur.com/LMowl3F.png](http://i.imgur.com/LMowl3F.png)

2\. [http://i.imgur.com/3K1JPgR.png](http://i.imgur.com/3K1JPgR.png)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Can you please send a search and rescue for your support team? It has been days and there has been no sign of of them any where.

</comment><comment><USER31> i too signed up in coinbase end of november ,carried away by the hype( before the crash that is)! but thankfully didnt buy any BTC. there may be others like me.</comment>


Anatomy of a SIM Card - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/benguild/status/249659847308632064 <comment><USER2> Does anybody have an idea why there's only one pin left untouched?

<comment><USER3> Pin 5 (the unconnected pin) is programming voltage input, used only when writing identity information to the SIM.

These chips are preprogrammed when manufactured, and the programming voltage pin is left unconnected when placed in the carrier so it's impossible to re- program the SIM card once made.

In older times, it was possible with the right hardware to reprogram a SIM card to (for example) have two SIM cards report the same mobile number, so you could essentially clone a phone number onto multiple handsets instead of having to pay for multiple cellular lines. These newer style SIM cards prevent hacking like this simply by making it impossible to reprogram the SIM by not being able to power the programming circuit.

Source: <http://pinouts.ru/Memory/SmartCardIso_pinout.shtml></comment></comment>


China Is Currently Holding 1,600 Teslas at Customs - <AUTHOR> https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-03-05/china-is-currently-holding-1600-teslas-at-customs-101388002.html <comment><USER2> TBH, this isn't too interesting, at least to me.

In a previous job, I got to know our Import/Export lawyer, who we needed assistance every time we needed to ship anything technological overseas; it wasn't just import headaches on the receiving end, there were also export headaches on the sending end.

So it doesn't surprise me if customs took some sample of product, found inconsistencies, and decided to hold the shipment. Yes it's annoying and costs money (I wouldn't be surprised if they're paying storage charges), but you resolve it (cleanly) and move on.

<comment><USER3> The question is how much politics/bribes determine which get sampled, how thoroughly, "finding" inconsistencies and how holding up gets decided.

For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law.

<comment><USER4> In the states, we can recast your line thus: "For my friends, judicial/prosecutorial discretion; for my enemies, the law".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Reportedly already resolved. [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-agrees- solution-tesla-c...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-agrees-solution- tesla-customs-155625079.html)

<comment><USER6> Did Elon have to take one big thing for the team?

<comment><USER7> Fyre reference? I doubt Elon busted out the mouthwash :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think it's a solved problem -- "'We have already reached a resolution with Chinese customs, and we are working closely with them to resume clearance procedures on these vehicles,' a Tesla spokesperson said in a statement."

From: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tesla/china- agrees-...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-tesla/china-agrees-to- tesla-remedy-for-model-3-customs-block-source-idUSKCN1QM196)

</comment><comment><USER9> Tesla must be running low on guanxi. Best to take care of that.

I'm sure Tesla realizes it, but a foreign company just can't protect itself using the legal system the same way they can in Western society.

This seems to be a continuing source of surprise for US companies...

<comment><USER10> a "foreign" company in a western society isn't much protected neither. this is an illusion of the native local companies on what jurisdiction to trust and the dominant media structure.

<comment><USER11> And what do you base that on? The rule of law in western society is usually well respected by both individuals, government and companies.

There are many cases where large corporations have been defeated by smaller groups. I am not saying the opposite isn't occasionally true though.

<comment><USER10> "The rule of law in western society is usually well respected by both individuals, government and companies."

This is an illusion, and a propaganda to self which already has proven wrong last 20 years. Yet this propaganda surprisingly prevails. That makes me think the education in western societies, is in some sense totalitarian within a certain bounds.

With endless cases we know that politics holds the key to rule of law in most western countries. Rule of law in edge cases is not even valid for the citizens of that particular country, and it's not at all valid for foreign individuals and corporations.

<comment><USER12> > rule of law in western society is well respected. This is an illusion...

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

Most disputes in western society is handled very adequately by law. Some cases where monied interests somehow slips thru, or cases of bribery. But a majority of the time, it's treated as a vile crime.

Unlike in countries where in order to do business, you have to establish "quanxi" (social connections), or outright pay protection money (ala places like Venezuela).

The fact that a big deal is made by the media when a bribery scandal happens in western society attests to this fact.

<comment><USER10> "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence."

And where is your evidence to your controversial and extraordinary statements?

<comment><USER9> You use the rhetorical tools of a Russian troll. Not joking.

<comment><USER10> I don't at all think Russians have rule of law neither Chinese. But that self propaganda still prevailing in some Western circles is annoying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm not sure what I should think of that source. The next article claims that China will have an artificial sun soon, but forgets to mention that this would be the ITER in France, and it's a world wide collaboration effort, based on the Russian Tokomak design (with competing designs being tested in Germany and USA). Not "China's artificial sun"

</comment><comment><USER14> The car industry is extremely messed up. Every country puts massive tariffs on them and tries to dissuade imports. Protectionism is still very much alive.

<comment><USER15> Well, yeah. Automotive is a strategic industry in a lot of countries, and governments pay big money in terms of tax incentives to get automakers to locate there and hire people. It's a long-term investment, and you don't want companies pulling out the second there's exchange rate volatility or labour- related issues.

<comment><USER16> Tell that to the current UK government.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Yet another time I want to tell people that a random Chinese official don't give fcuk about you or somebody being "an important foreign company"

Reminds me of how a totally noname official in Shenzhen bonded customs zone detained the entire initial iPhone 5 shipment to US, pretty much just to have the pleasure seeing Apple China c-levels fly from Beijing and dance around him, filling every form he had, on a claim of wrong punctuation in original filling.

<comment><USER18> This is sad and funny, do you have a source for it by the way?

<comment><USER17> Just a local hearsay, but as a somebody who dealt with China for entire career, I can say that it does happen

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Yet another one of the many failures to execute at Tesla...

They desperately need a Gwynne Shotwell in charge of things there before it all goes to hell.

<comment><USER20> I am not sure Tesla is that much worse than the rest. It's just you don't read about the mishaps of others.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: List of popular blogs to promote mobile application - <AUTHOR>

Dear HN, what is your favorite (public) list of blogs and websites that can be used to promote your mobile applications? <comment><AUTHOR> To start with something - my list of popular websites useful in promotion of iOS applications:

<http://appshopper.com/>

<http://blog.ngmoco.com/>

<http://dailyappshow.com/>

<http://iphone.iusethis.com/>

<http://iphoneapplicationlist.com/>

<http://justanotheriphoneblog.com/>

<http://teksocial.com/>

<http://www.148apps.com/>

<http://www.appcraver.com/>

<http://www.appleiphoneapps.com/>

<http://www.appleiphoneschool.com/>

<http://www.apprater.com/>

<http://www.appsafari.com/>

<http://www.appshopper.com/>

<http://www.appstoreapps.com/>

<http://www.apptism.com/>

<http://www.appvee.com/>

<http://www.freshapps.com/>

<http://www.iphoneappreviews.net/>

<http://www.iphoneapps.co.uk/>

<http://www.iphonehacks.com/>

<http://www.nativeiphoneapps.com/>

<http://www.theiphoneblog.com/>

<http://www.toucharcade.com/>

<http://www.tuaw.com/>

</comment><comment><USER2> If your app is targeted to a particular demographic it's always best to stick with that rather than generic "mobile app site". So for example if you wrote an app for amateur dog training, it's best to promote it where the new dog owners hang out, rather than where iPhone users hang out.

Depends on the app of course. If you can't think of particular audience, that might be an indicator that you didn't think it through.

<comment><AUTHOR> +1, extremely fair point which can be easily forgotten.</comment></comment>


Researches about economical change/growth and production outputs? - <AUTHOR> <comment><AUTHOR> Or entertainment change/growth and satisfaction outputs? Can someone provide such sources?</comment>


Le Corbusier's American Dream Became a Nightmare - <AUTHOR> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/how-le-corbusiers-american-dream-became-a-nightmare/ <comment><USER2> I find the towers in a park type of neighborhoods detestable wherever I come across them. The space between the houses may look green and clean, but it's neither private nor public and nobody ever seems to enjoy it. Also, the reality is often closer to towers in a parking place...

</comment><comment><USER3> The dream of starting fresh is perhaps one of the defining pillars of modernism. Software architecture and development contends with the same forces.

</comment><comment><USER4> This was in fact the premise of Mr. X[1] (who certainly bears an uncanny resemblance to Corbu), so I think it'd be fair to say people have experienced large-scale urban modernism as 'nightmarish' for decades. Certainly Brasilia[2] comes to mind. I personally like modernist architecture, and find it comfortable, but grand plans to restructure cities have never been easy to make equally livable.

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_X_(Vortex)#Series_backg...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_X_\(Vortex\)#Series_background) 2: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia#Costa_plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia#Costa_plan)

</comment><comment><USER5> I simultaneously admire modernist architecture while desiring to never live or work in it. It's pretty to look at it, but it is literally and figuratively hollow.</comment>


Why clever and lazy people make great leaders - <AUTHOR> http://theweek.com/article/index/255825/why-clever-and-lazy-people-make-great-leaders

<comment><USER2> Great leader if efficiency and productivity are the expectation. In most of cases, politician, not leader is the one who climb to the top, because efficiency and productivity are not priorities in society and most of corporate.

Only in the case of military, leaders are expected to be of real leadership, as otherwise the consequence is obvious. In non-military environment, this is rarely the case hence often you would find the stupid and diligent types, which should be fired according to these nazi's theory, are actually in charge.

<comment><AUTHOR> I sometimes find the smart and lazy in charge, because their laziness forces them to be charismatic.

In reality this seems like a false classification. People of all types make it to the top, and it's hard to find some simple metric that says what will do it.

At a prior large consulting firm that I worked for, they did a huge analysis and found the only predictors of success as a senior consultant were "Did they get a 3.0 in a tech degree or a 3.2 in a non-tech degree?" and "Did they have any kind of job while in college?" That seems to suggest smart enough and diligent enough for entry level. The same firm did an analysis to see which managers made good partners, and they couldn't find any predictors. The entry level predictors no longer mattered. School didn't matter. Competency (process, technology, etc) didn't matter. Industry didn't matter. Length of time to get promoted to manager didn't matter.

Net - it's hard to predict winners!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> True! They can be great leaders but annoying at the same time (basing on my experience)..

</comment><comment><USER4> I tend to look at the MacLeod hierarchy through a three-dimensional analysis: subordinacy, dedication, and strategy (knowing what to work on).

People with 0 or 1 of the 3 traits will never become players and aren't worth worrying about. To have all 3 is almost a contradiction. If you're strategic, you'll choose dedication (to advance fast) or subordinacy (to have an easy life) but never excel in both-- that's a fool's errand. You only get a 3-for-3 match in a protege situation (it makes sense for someone to be dedicated and subordinate, because he's subordinating to someone powerful who's protecting his career).

Strategic and subordinate (but not dedicated) people are the MacLeod Losers, the clock-punching 9-to-5ers.

Subordinate and dedicated (but not strategic) people are the Clueless. Their unconditional work ethic can bring them into middle management but they never get any further, because they never learn how to "work smart".

Strategic and dedicated (but not subordinate) people are the MacLeod Sociopaths (most of whom aren't sociopaths). But even though they tend to be highly dedicated, they're also often accused of laziness since they commit so little to the efforts they judge not to have value (and they're often open about doing so).

</comment><comment><USER5> Hi. I'd like an inverse Godwin argument for $200.

1\. Pigeon-hole people in a way that resonates with the audience 2\. Call in a Nazi leader to buttress the argument 3\. Conclude 4\. Post link bait

Wehrmach lost the war. The logic is flawed.</comment>


Show HN: Yipgo – stripped down workflow manager - <AUTHOR> https://yipgo.com <comment><USER2> Please review the content on your homepage.

The typos ("trail" instead of "trial") and awkward grammar/missing words ("make Yipgo provides amazing value") do not instill confidence in the quality of your product.

Doing the little, easy things right - like writing good basic copy - says a lot about the work you're doing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ouch, that's very shoddy - you're right. Thanks I'll correct those and get some help reading the copy!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> What will the pricing be once it's out of beta? Looks like something I would find handy, depending on what the cost is looking like :-)

<comment><AUTHOR> I expect the most basic package - 10 users in an organisation, as many teams as you like will be $10 a month. That tier won't be a money maker but a good way for small companies to get on without breaking the bank.</comment></comment>


First sighting of Majorana fermion on a common metal - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2020-04-sighting-mysterious-majorana-fermion-common.html <comment><USER2> The big problem in this field is actually proving you have a majorana fermion. In this experiment they measured a zero bias conductance peak, but this can de caused by multiple other things as well. There are other detection methods as well, but the ultimate prove is using two majorana's and "braid" them together, thus forming a qubit. Doing this is much harder, but is also the primary use case for majorana's, so it is necessary anyway. Until someone does this with this system I would take this measurement as a strong indicator, but not a real breakthrough.

</comment><comment><USER3> > Now the MIT-led team has observed evidence of Majorana fermions in a > material system they designed and fabricated, which consists of nanowires of > gold grown atop a superconducting material, vanadium, and dotted with small, > ferromagnetic "islands" of europium sulfide.

Material science is dope

<comment><USER4> > nanowires of gold grown atop a superconducting material, vanadium, and > dotted with small, ferromagnetic "islands" of europium sulfide

It's about effing time _they_ finally got their dizzy asses around to trying this, eh? I've been so frustrated over the past few decades urging this approach!

<comment><USER5> It's probably a funding and general engineering problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I imagine they're hard to find because they annihilate each other. But they probably have a nonlinear surface area function which is dependent at the very least on interacting particle energies, so there's Hope for controlling them if that's the case.

<comment><USER7> Came here to say something like this. One big problem in the field is detection. They are detected only indirectly using current methods. And there are other particles that could trigger a detection. Majorana particles have interesting properties in theory, but these properties have yet to be validated. The most interesting, and useful for quantum computing, is the ability for a pair of Majorana Fermions to "record", in the form of a qubit, how many times they have been wrapped around each other. But this requires having two, and being able to move them at will. Every new material we find them in is a chance for success.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The article briefly touches on it, but could someone explain why Majorana particles are ideal for quantum computing?

<comment><USER7> Qubits are susceptible to all kinds of environmental noise. That's why current designs are cooled to cryogenic temperatures. Certain kinds of Majorana particles solve this problem by making the qubit distributed. In a handwaving way, the 1 state of the qubit is on one end of a wire, and the zero state is on the other; really there is a Majorana particle on each end of the wire, and by manipulating them you can control the state of the qubit. To manipulate the qubit you must interact with both ends of the wire at the same time. That goes for noise as well. And noise typically acts locally, not in two places at the same time, so the qubit is protected.

<comment><USER8> Very cool. Thank you for that! Is there an easy way to explain why you can't do this with other particles but you can with Majorana particles?</comment></comment></comment>


Submit a Pull Request to Inject Arbitrary JavaScript Code into Trump's Site - <AUTHOR> https://blog.chibicode.com/you-can-submit-a-pull-request-to-inject-arbitrary-js-code-into-donald-trumps-site-here-s-how-782aa6a17a56#.skzzncv32 <comment><USER2> A similar thing happened to Microsoft ten years back, when they hotlinked to an image on flickr and violated the CC licensing by doing so. The owner of the image swapped out his original image at the link, replacing it with the infamous goatse image, which appeared on Microsoft's site for some period of time.

The image owner wrote it up on his blog. You don't _really_ need to follow links to the goatse image or a screenshot of the Microsoft page displaying the image, but they are there: [http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/2006/12/microsoft- copyright...](http://www.niallkennedy.com/blog/2006/12/microsoft-copyright- photograph.html)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> (This vulnerability has been fixed, but there wasn't enough space in the title field to say so.)</comment>


GDA – GJoy Dex Analysizer - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/charles2gan/GDA-android-reversing-Tool <comment><USER2> Pretty cool; however:

\- it's not opensource, the github repo contains only binaries,

\- the main executable binary is encrypted/compressed from some reason, can't be easily checked what it does,

\- one question that came into my mind was why not create a 'dex2jar'-style tool that works with every dex, and then not create a decompiler for java jars? This way the decompiler could be used for both dex and ordinary java jars.

I think dex translates to jar in a straightforward way, because dex is being compiled from compiled java classes.

But nonetheless, the more reverse engineering tools, the merrier (but I wouldn't run this EXE file outside a disposable virtual machine).</comment>


A Counterexample to Modus Ponens - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/natecharlow/status/1264582931739271169 <comment><USER2> P(marble) = blue(marble) or red(marble) is true for all 100 marbles. So this proposition being true tells us nothing about the specific marble. As 60 of the 100 marbles are large, it is indeed true the any marble m we pick and of which we only know that P(m) is probably large.</comment>


Apply HN: An Automated Undergraduate Advisor and Diploma Management Tool - <AUTHOR> I would like to make an automated undergraduate advisor to improve: undergraduate advising, teacher feedback, registration, and diploma management.
My first prototype: https://easy-a.net/
We've had 670 users join in the last 3 weeks.
Problem:
If anyone has attended a university you know how challenging it can be navigate getting a degree. There are supposed to be advisors who help you, mentors, fellow students, etc. However, more often than not, you end up missing a class here or there, or take an unnecessarily difficult semester.
I went to the University of Illinois Urbana-Champain (UIUC) for a Computer Science degree and we had one undergraduate advisor for over 1200 students. The advisor was great, but he easily worked 12 hours a day, and you had to force yourself in to see him. Even then, he couldn't answer many questions because he simply didn't know everything.
Solution:
My last semester at UIUC our UIUC advisor I was trying to find an interesting way to teach people about FOIA requests[1]. So I decided to make Easy A (https://easy-a.net/)! I FOIA requested the university, and was able to build a website that displayed grade distributions, but also and much more interestingly predict future grades. Then, with users adding a little more information, I was able to predict the estimated workload[2].
The current goal is to partner with the university (as opposed to Koofers or RateMyProfessor), in order to create a more streamline solution to undergraduate advising, teacher feedback, registration, and diploma management.
Importantly, this would benefits to the university because it reduces dropout rate, and improves student throughput. Similarly, students are happier with better grades, an improved registration process, and diploma management.
[1] http://austingwalters.com/dont-be-a-fool-foia-your-school/
[2] http://austingwalters.com/building-easy-beta/ <comment><USER2> Very good idea. Are you making the data you've obtained through FOIA open?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

Every FOIA request and associated data is available at a link at the bottom of this page:

[http://austingwalters.com/foia- requesting-100-universities/](http://austingwalters.com/foia- requesting-100-universities/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Good idea. I've used ratemyprofessor and wondered why schools don't just create a more transparent system of providing more info about the professors (not necessarily ratings)</comment>


Does Lyft Alleviate City Traffic? Looking at the VMT Efficiency Metric - <AUTHOR> https://www.rmi.org/news/lyft-alleviate-city-traffic/ <comment><USER2> New York City did a large-scale study of traffic patterns, and concluded ridesharing services brought more people onto the road who otherwise might've stayed home (or taken mass transit).

[http://www.schallerconsult.com/rideservices/unsustainable.pd...](http://www.schallerconsult.com/rideservices/unsustainable.pdf)

<comment><USER3> Is it possible that the self-driving cars will have the same effect? The rides will be cheaper and more people might want to be on the go.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It would be nice to see Uber/Lyft lead to long-term reductions in the urban land usage of parking lots.

<comment><USER5> Building more transit, and reducing or removing parking minimums is the way to do this. Unless we do this more people must drive, making more traffic.</comment></comment>


Permissions asked for by Uber Android app - <AUTHOR> http://www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what-the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/ <comment><USER3> _TLDR_ : Uber's Android app is literally malware

Since the website is currently down, this person reverse-engineered Uber's Android app and discovered it has code that will "call home" aka send data back to Uber with your:

\- _SMS list_ [edit: see other comments re SMSLog, SMS permission is not currently requested] \- call history \- wifi connections \- GPS location \- every type of device fingerprint possible (device IDs)

It also checks if you're phone is rooted/jailbroken and if it's vulnerable to Heartbleed... which it also calls home.

From my understanding, which the author somehow missed, is that it is using [http://www.inauth.com](http://www.inauth.com) SDK which provides 'malware detection'. This SDK is popular in the 'mobile finance industry' and the banking sector. Also notably one of the founders is former DHS/FBI.

Two possible theories: it is being used for fraud detection and/or an intelligence gathering tool.

Edit: here is a copy of the decompiled source code [http://www.gironsec.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2014/11/InAu...](http://www.gironsec.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2014/11/InAuthManager.txt) note the name "package com.inauth.mme"

Edit #2: here is a screenshot of Uber's permission request [https://i.imgur.com/4MmYrJH.png](https://i.imgur.com/4MmYrJH.png) no SMS on the list

<comment><USER4> Just for completeness sake and judging from the function names, this is the list, with attributes stored for each:

\- Accounts log (Email)

\- App Activity (Name, PackageName, Process Number of activity, Processed id)

\- App Data Usage (Cache size, code size, data size, name, package name)

\- App Install (installed at, name, package name, unknown sources enabled, version code, version name)

\- Battery (health, level, plugged, present, scale, status, technology, temperature, voltage)

\- Device Info (board, brand, build version, cell number, device, device type, display, fingerprint, ip, mac address, manufacturer, model, os platform, product, sdk code, total disk space, unknown sources enabled)

\- GPS (accuracy, altitude, latitude, longitude, provider, speed)

\- MMS (from number, mms at, mmss type, service number, to number)

\- NetData (bytes received, bytes sent, connection type, interface type)

\- PhoneCall (call duration, called at, from number, phone call type, to number)

\- SMS (from number, service number, sms at, sms type, to number)

\- TelephonyInfo (cell tower id, cell tower latitude, cell tower longitude, imei, iso country code, local area code, meid, mobile country code, mobile network code, network name, network type, phone type, sim serial number, sim state, subscriber id)

\- WifiConnection (bssid, ip, linkspeed, macaddr, networkid, rssi, ssid)

\- WifiNeighbors (bssid, capabilities, frequency, level, ssid)

\- Root Check (root staus code, root status reason code, root version, sig file version)

\- Malware Info (algorithm confidence, app list, found malware, malware sdk version, package list, reason code, service list, sigfile version)

Or, put differently, I really don't see any reason for Google not to immediately remove this app from the store permanently and ban whatever developer uploaded it. There should probably be legal action.

Edit: I've augmented the various types of data retrieved (ie: there is capability in the source to read, save and transmit this data) from the inauth framework sources.

<comment><USER5> > I really don't see any reason for Google not to immediately remove this app

Apart from Google being an investor in Uber?

<comment><USER6> After all the recent scandals in Uber, how has Google not pushed for a complete overhaul of Uber's leadership already? It has become pretty clear the current leadership has some "issues".

<comment><USER5> Well I mean, is it actually causing any problems for Uber?

Uber has what's pretty close to a monopoly in what it offers, apart from a few cities in the US where Lyft also operates. I would say most people that user Uber are not interested in using the regular local taxi service.

<comment><USER7> I spoke to a Lyft/Uber driver today in NCY. He said that Uber's losing drivers every day here — about 5% (I don't know where he got those numbers from). He also mentioned that Uber are flat out lying about how much drivers earn, and in some months drivers that aren't on Uber's "favourites" list end up owing Uber for renting the gear instead of earning money.

This reputation is definitely damaging, and it's common knowledge here. Drivers bitch about it. They recommend Lyft.

<comment><USER5> I'm always very cautious of taking what opinion from HN (and others in 'tech') and extrapolating them out to the general population, so I read what you say (and my own opinion) with a grain of salt.

But like, Uber is in 230 cities around the world. Here in Australia I believe they added over 1000 new drivers over the past month. Here, Uber is the alternative. There is no Lyft or Sidecar - mainly because alternatives are too scared of legal action from government - ridesharing is essentially illegal here, but Uber plays the we're-waiting-for-the-law-to-catch-up card regardless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's perfectly reasonable explanation for almost all of these permissions, and there's nothing in this analysis that suggests they're doing otherwise. The only one that I couldn't think of was WRITE_SETTINGS

Permissions

ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION & ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION: Fairly obvious, they need to figure out where to pick you up

ACCESS_NETWORK_STATE, ACCESS_WIFI_STATE , INTERNET: They need to figure out if you have internet and use it

WAKE_LOCK: Keep the network running so you can get real-time updates about your driver

GET_ACCOUNTS, USE_CREDENTIALS, MANAGE_ACCOUNTS: For logging in with Google

CAMERA: You can take a picture of your credit card for easier entry

CALL_PHONE: So you can call your driver

MANAGE_ACCOUNTS: So they can add your uber account to your phone

READ_CONTACTS: Probably for inviting friends or splitting ride costs

READ_PHONE_STATE: Legacy analytics reasons

WRITE_EXTERNAL_STORAGE: Probably unnecessary, but they are probably just storing data

VIBRATE: For notifications

The rest are for push notifications

As far as the roottools, I know Crashlytics checks for root so they can provide that data in their console for crashes. It's a pretty useful thing to be able to weed crashes from rooted devices out. They usually make very little sense and violate the advertised behavior of the SDK.

<comment><USER9> So, let me disagree with a few of those:

\- CAMERA: there's an intent for that, you don't need the permission, although it will require tapping the "take a photo" and "ok" buttons

\- CALL_PHONE: ditto, although it will require tapping the dial button.

\- READ_CONTACTS: again, there's an intent for that, allowing you to select only the contacts you want to share with the app.

\- READ_PHONE_STATE: either they want to be compatible with a very old version of Android, or they want to uniquely identify your phone, permanently. They might also want to know who you're calling or who's calling you in real time

Regarding MANAGE_ACCOUNTS, etc: some apps do that, and it seems to be all the rage. Unless you have multiple apps sharing a common account, I don't see the point. It's just leaks all your configured accounts on the device.

<comment><USER10> Having implemented the first three: various manufacturers release dialer and contact apps that do not implement the Intent in the same way as the AOSP/Google apps. For example, the HTC Sense contacts application does not grant you the single-record permission when you select a contact via the ACTION_PICK_CONTACT intent, so your app will generate a permission error and you will not get the contact data without READ_CONTACTS.

Similar issues abound with the myriad of camera applications.

<comment><USER9> Interesting, how recent are those HTC Sense phones? Any pointers to such bugs? I agree it's a shame that it isn't implemented properly. It should be part of CTS.

<comment><USER8> The CTS isn't quite as comprehensive as it should be. I worked on a music player that replaced the stock music app for a while. At one point, we discovered it wasn't issuing some of the required intents. Went unnoticed for over a year.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> _Recall that PUT / DELETE aren't official HTTP requests, rather extensions implemented via WebDav. Modern applications don't bother with these requests since its easier / more secure to perform those same actions with a server side language. _

Apparently the author has not ever heard of REST. I'm a little shocked by that.

<comment><USER12> Yeah I noticed that as well, it makes me wonder about the rest of his technical assertions that I'm less able to judge.

Just in case anyone was wondering here's the HTTP 1.1 rfc: [https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt](https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt) A simple search will show that it does include PUT and DELETE.

<comment><USER13> > _"... it makes me wonder about the rest of his technical assertions that I'm > less able to judge."_

What technical assertions? From what I can gather, he's just pointing out what he sees in the code and what he thinks it might be doing. None of that feels like _technical_ assertions (apart from the statement about PUT and GET).

<comment><USER14> He also implied that the presence of PUT and DELETE alone demonstrate that the app is using WebDAV and not a standard REST API via RFC2616 et al.

He also stated that WebDAV isn't a standard (ie RFC).

He also stated that you don't need PUT or DELETE because it can be done 'on the server'. (I'm not sure how you get your data to the server without HTTP verbs, but..)

With that said, his other work looks spot on; you don't always have to know how to architect a service in order to figure out what's broken with it. He's done a service to the community by taking this thing apart and seeing what makes it tick.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm not sure the criticism in the linked post is justified.

Here's what Uber says about its Android permissions -- the page isn't that difficult to find: [https://m.uber.com/android- permissions](https://m.uber.com/android-permissions)

Uber says the camera permission is required to take a snapshot of your credit card. The phone call permission is required to call your driver. The get accounts permission is required to enable single sign-in (Google Sign-In, Google Wallet).

The Uber app doesn't, according to the gironsec.com post, request Android's READ_SMS permission, so pointing to a "sendSMSLog" code excerpt by itself doesn't mean much. And so on.

As <andymcsherry> pointed out elsewhere in this thread, there's a "perfectly reasonable explanation for almost all of these permissions" except WRITE_SETTINGS. Uber says in its Android permissions post that: "We use this permission to save data and cache mapping vectors."

It seems as though it would have been useful for the author of the gironsec.com post to read what Uber has to say -- or, better yet, contact the company before posting a critique. If Uber PR can't cough up a good explanation, it makes the final critique _more_ powerful.

I've posted here on HN criticizing Uber before ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8383854](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8383854)), but before rushing to judgment here let's check our facts first.

</comment><comment><USER16> As an Android developer, I don't _want_ to have to ask for as many permissions as I do. I have 1 button buried on 1 screen that allows you to call customer support. 99.9% of users never click the button. However, I _have_ to make every single customer accept the CALL_PHONE permission.

There are a bunch of permissions required for basics like autocompleting the users email for login, or checking the network state so you can adjust the app behavior based on connectivity.

Not to mention the incentives are all wrong in the Play store. Changing permissions murders your update rate, so you want to do it as little as possible. So when you are forced to add a permission, you grab a bunch of extra ones you 'plan' to use later to avoid having to get over that hump again. It's really awful.

<comment><USER17> Why? All we have is a tel: link that opens the phone number in the dialer. They can choose to initiate the call or not, no permissions needed.

<comment><USER18> A guess: The call might show up in the phone logs if it's made through the standard Android Phone app. If the call is made directly from the Uber App, then perhaps this means that Uber can hide the phone number from the user. I can think of a number of reasons why they'd want to do that if they could.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> A LOT of this stuff is pretty easily explainable. They want access to SMS and phone calls because the Uber app uses those things.

Camera doesn't seem terribly implausible. IT could be an incoming feature that allows you to take a photo of where you are so that your driver can find you more easily.

The WiFi stuff is probably related to location. edit: as pointed out below, this is so that you can take a photo of your credit card so you don't have to type it in.

This seems like "hydrogen hydroxide KILLS" scare mongering.

BTW, this is all available in the app permissions: [https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FVPu6x-F5SM/VHUZgU47m-I/A...](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FVPu6x-F5SM/VHUZgU47m-I/AAAAAAAAJuQ/STPzA9cJdQ4/w668-h1186-no/14%2B-%2B1)

I don't see the big OMG SECRET MALWARE scariness.

<comment><USER3> > I don't see the big OMG SECRET MALWARE scariness.

This is the definition of malware:

n. Malicious computer software that interferes with normal computer functions or sends personal data about the user to unauthorized parties over the Internet.

I'm all for people taking responsibility for their privacy but this is basically what you are saying to people:

"Hey you accepted that list of permissions (or Terms of Service)! What? you didn't expect that your Taxi app is not going to retrieve and store your call logs and other personal information? How silly of you."

This rational among tech people is why there is zero privacy. The myth of consumer choice in the matter. The average person doesn't reasonably expect Uber to be mining this information about them. Merely assuming it is a function of the application.

We in technology know that they _can_ but the average user? Who has responsibility here then? Noone? Uber has an ethical responsibility not to actually abuse this trust from their users IMO. Which is why the inclusion of this library deserves scrutiny.

<comment><USER20> So then, how do you define "unauthorized parties"? All these permissions _are_ explicitly authorized by the user, and I don't see any evidence that they're being used in unreasonable ways by Uber.

> The average person doesn't reasonably expect Uber to be mining this > information about them.

Then it sounds like you would predict that, if you showed this article to the average Uber user, they would be upset and would stop using the app. Would you predict that? I think that is extremely unlikely, and that the vast majority of people wouldn't be interested and couldn't care less.

<comment><USER14> "Explicitly authorized" might be debatable. There's no way to pick and choose what permissions to authorize; your choice is solely whether to install the app or not. If you could specify permissions and you did (and opt in, not opt out), then that would be explicit authorization for _all_ of those permissions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> There's a general trend of mobile apps that ask for everything: camera, microphone, sensors, access to local files, WiFi, etc. These are apps (like Uber) with no good reason to need access to such things.

In most cases I can think of no good reason for this except either a desire to surveil customers for indirect monetization, or participation in government or private surveillance grid efforts.

I've got Lyft on my Android phone, but not Uber. I look at its permissions and the only dubious looking one is "access to take photos / videos." Is this perhaps for signing up as a driver and photographing yourself and your car? I don't see anything else that doesn't make sense.

<comment><USER22> It's a common practice to do this "just in case" you need the permissions later on. When first installing an app users are likely to hit Ok to whatever, but when permissions change on an update they are hit with another screen that tells them the specific thing you are now asking permissions for.

<comment><USER21> Sounds like classic poor security UX design -- it encourages people to allow everything, and encourages apps to claim everything.

<comment><USER23> I have a lot of issues with iOS, but I think Apple's UX here is clearly superior: it asks you about each individual permission an app requests (not on install, but when the permission is first used), and allows you to deny it.

<comment><USER24> Wasn't that almost the same approach with UAC ?

<comment><USER25> As usual, Microsoft did it first, but got the UX all wrong. Apple comes along does something very similar, but because of the App Store and the infamous review cycle, can enforce some semblance of control over the app ecosystem.

Notice: Apple only does this fairly granular security on iOS, and OSX is much more similar to how Windows it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Google cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what- the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/)

<comment><USER27> I like his image at the bottom that tells you to put in your credit card number and expiration to see if its been stolen. Upon inspection, the onclick just pops up an alert that says "Dumbass!" haha

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Pro Tip: Unintall the Uber App, and use m dot uber dot com inside Chrome.

<comment><USER29> I do this with Facebook also.

<comment><USER30> Won't that mean that Facebook will know what sites you visit that run FB's beacon/SDK?

Better off using Tinfoil for Facebook (if Android)

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.danvelazco...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.danvelazco.fbwrapper)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Android needs a sandbox, which will provide apps with empty contacts, call history, fake location and so on.

Does such sandbox exists?

<comment><USER32> XPrivacy?

[https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy](https://github.com/M66B/XPrivacy)

<comment><USER33> I'm devastated that it doesn't (and apparently, never will) work with Lollipop.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Checking for root access is actually really useful from a developer standpoint. I've seen countless bugs on Crashlytics that are 100% on rooted devices which often is because the user has xposed or some other system level hacks that break my apps. This allows us developers to spend more time focusing on real bugs instead of chasing down these rooted device problems.

<comment><USER35> It's not a user's fault they have to root to regain some control over a piece of hardware they own. Your app shouldn't crash under xposed - test for it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> There's an article here explaining what the permissions are used for: [https://m.uber.com/android-permissions](https://m.uber.com/android- permissions)

</comment><comment><USER37> We've attempted to change the baity title to something accurate and neutral, but if anyone can suggest a better title, please do.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, when I posted it, I realized the title wasn't ideal - but figured the safe bet was to adhere to the "post with the author's published title" rule.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I've contacted Uber in Australia, and requested a copy of all personal data they have collected. This is my right under Australian law; it'll be interesting to see how they proceed.

</comment><comment><USER39> One way to deal with this is to filter all outbound requests and not let the requests that you've identified as "phoning home" to complete. Then, you test the app, if it still works you can continue using it. If it doesn't, you find a different service or you consider re-adjusting your restrictions.

Outbound filtering can quickly highlight any app that tries to call home. Luckily, many apps continue working if you block those calls. YMMV.

<comment><USER40> Sadly, filtering is a privilege only rooted Android users may enjoy despite there being a perfectly functional iptables/ iptables6 instance on every phone.

The first thing I do after rooting is install a front- end to iptables and set it to whitelist mode. Any app that has a genuine need to access the internet can then be authorised; everything else is denied.

It frustrates me greatly that the ' common user' is denied this protection.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Google cached

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01vSDoJ:www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what- the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

</comment><comment><USER42> Definitely uncool and a great article.

I do find it funny that despite all the other allegations, absolutely reprehensible business practices, and general malice they've put in the world that this is a surprise to anyone. I'm quite surprised that they still have so much business, but then again, morality isn't a one-size fits all sort of deal. What bothers me, may not bother other folks, or may seem as smart business tactics ( :sadface: ).

To me, it's just more icing on the cake.

</comment><comment><USER43> archive [https://archive.today/CR3eW](https://archive.today/CR3eW)

I personally believe Uber app on android fits the definition of a malware.

</comment><comment><USER44> I don't see that Uber has permissions to my SMS, however, after going through the other list of granted permissions, I went to the settings and modified the permission and also enabled privacy guard for the app. You can go to Settings -> Apps -> (scroll down) tap on Modify - <USER2> [http://i.imgur.com/AVXLqgh.png](http://i.imgur.com/AVXLqgh.png)

</comment><comment><USER45> Mirror in google cache: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01vSDoJ:www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what- the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

</comment><comment><USER46> [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01vSDoJ:www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what- the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)

</comment><comment><USER47> Down for me.

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6rWGz01vSDoJ:www.gironsec.com/blog/2014/11/what- the-hell-uber-uncool-bro/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

</comment><comment><USER48> If you're interested in exploring this, and other Android app's permissions, I built [http://appethics.org](http://appethics.org) last weekend.

The goal was to easily surface what permissions a given app requires, and what they mean.

</comment><comment><USER49> This is outrageous. Write a review at [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ubercab](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ubercab) and link to the article. I just did that.

</comment><comment><USER50> imperialdrive, if you happen to read this, you appear to have been hellbanned. Just FYI.

</comment><comment><USER51> Isn't it possible to route all traffic to/from an Android device through a MIM proxy, run the Uber app, and then see _exactly_ what data is being sent to Uber HQ?

</comment><comment><USER52> Uber doesn't know who does the ride of shame based on pickups and drop offs, they just monitor the phones of their customers!

</comment><comment><USER53> I don't have Android 5.0. Is it now possible to block certain permissions per app?

<comment><USER54> No.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Clearly aggressive and not in a way that improves UX.

</comment><comment><USER56> Looks like it's time to turn on memcached...

</comment><comment><USER57> Wonderful! Just last week, Samsung did an update on my phone software and installed the Uber app automatically. Glad I removed it after that.

</comment><comment><USER58> As a dumbphone user, why people even allow an app to get information like this is beyond me.

<comment><USER24> Some people find it acceptable to give up information for "convenience", or even worse : bragging

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Uber: nice idea, evil company.</comment>


Vox Media to cut hundreds of freelance jobs ahead of gig economy laws - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/16/vox-media-to-cut-hundreds-of-freelance-jobs-ahead-of-californias-ab5.html <comment><USER2> Some of the protesters have protested themselves out of the job

[https://mobile.twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/12067058110...](https://mobile.twitter.com/ms_andiloveall/status/1206705811042422785)

<comment><USER3> Where does she say she supported the bill?</comment></comment>