We Need a New Science of Progress - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/we-need-new-science-progress/594946/ <comment><USER2> Without defining what "Progress" and "Good" are, the whole concept that there is some sort of "Progress" is meaningless. If you can define those terms, you can maybe start to study such a topic - but the definition of such terms belongs to philosophy, not science. Technological advancement could certainly studied, but what we do or don't do with it can only be "Good" or "Progressing" to some idealistic goal if we have identified those.

<comment><USER3> _By "progress," we mean the combination of economic, technological, scientific, cultural, and organizational advancement that has transformed our lives and raised standards of living over the past couple of centuries._

Given in TFA's third paragraph.

<comment><USER4> Well I can definitely tear down this definition. "Advancement" doesn't mean anything. What does it mean to advance culturally or organizationally without already having morality defined?

Also raising standards of living? Is that all we're after? Slaves in slave societies had rising standards of living, did that make slavery okay?

The scary thing about an article like this is the sheer ignorance and hubris behind it. No credible philosopher will tell you that we can objectify morality, it is a provable logical fallacy. That doesn't seem to stop people form thinking they can do it. The folks in history who thought they could do it are some of the most reprehensible people in all of human history.

<comment><USER5> > _Slaves in slave societies had rising standards of living, did that make > slavery okay?_

I doubt anyone is making the argument slavery is okay. At least try to argue in good faith. This is a ridiculous example.

<comment><USER6> One unclear example doesn't negate his/her argument. Even one bad example doesn't do this. And neither does arguing in bad faith (if for some reason they are doing so). The argument still stands. You can't coherently make demands about 'progress' (whatever that could even mean) without having some rational and already worked out framework for what determines 'progress' in the first place.

And the commenter is right that failing this, such talk can be dangerous because by a sleight of hand you can substitute - without argument - what is supposedly rational with whatever you simply desire at that moment in time.

<comment><USER5> The example was very clear, and although it might not negate it, it certainly undermines it. If contrived examples don't have bearing on the validity of an argument, I don't know how we are supposed to move forward in a debate.

I agree with the spirit of the parent poster, but to claim the OP is arguing slavery is okay because of raising standards of living is just as dangerous to this discussion.

<comment><USER4> I definitely wasn't making the argument that anyone was arguing for slavery, just that notional definitions of moral progress are much more complicated than simple economic metrics. There is so much more that goes into what is "right" and "wrong" than pure economic level, at a micro or macro level.

Now you might say I'm making a straw man of their argument, but then what are they even arguing then? I can't figure it out. What does "advancement" mean? They alluded to social sciences having various measure of human happiness is and that a "Progress Studies" department could synthesize these metrics into... what exactly? Policy proposals? A religion? Metrics of human well being assume an underlying framework of morale agreement to begin with.

You simply cannot philosophically convert an objective metric into an "ought" without making a ton of morale assumptions. You cannot prove that your morality and values are better than anyone else's because you will infinitely regress into definitions if what "good" means.

<comment><USER5> I agree with what you are saying, just that the way you originally went about saying it by including a contrived hyperbolic example regarding slavery was a poor way to frame your position, at least in my opinion, and made your argument less likely to be received in good faith.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This perfectly captures the zeitgeist and my current thinking. Globally, we need a 10x basic research expenditure increase, with specific allocation to long-term (life) grants for breakthrough investigations. Establishment of geographic concentrations or hubs of interest (eg. WallStreet proximity to fintech knowledge, DC corridor for cybersecurity experience, Boston biotech, etc). As well as radical change in nurture and support for key talent. And re- calibration of end focus on improving everyday lives and alleviating hardship.

The one feather in our cap is the distribution of new discovery. As the original research mission behind the invention of the internet, it has surpassed expectation. The black hole image at the center of the Milky Way galaxy was captured, processed and released (via twitter) in under a news cycle.

<comment><USER8> Thats the VC fallacy of believing that filling the tank with money will make the car go faster. If anything , progress in recent decades is anticorrelated with increase in funding

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> _Progress itself is understudied._

Every historian in the world would dispute that.

<comment><USER10> I suspect many historians also believe that people don't pay nearly enough attention to history.

<comment><USER3> Economists especially.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I dunno, sounds like a lot of words to describe a rebranding of classical economics.

Before economics became all dynamic stochastic general equilibrium matters and strategic games of imperfect information, it was about 'how does the machine work.'

Not sure why we need a New Field to study that.

<comment><USER12> That's what I was thinking while reading: the author is just describing economics while ignoring the fact that

> The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they > really know about what they imagine they can design. To the naive mind that > can conceive of order only as the product of deliberate arrangement, it may > seem absurd that in complex conditions order, and adaptation to the unknown, > can be achieved more effectively by decentralizing decisions and that a > division of authority will actually extend the possibility of overall order. > Yet that decentralization actually leads to more information being taken > into account (FA Hayek, The Fatal Conceit)

I agree that we don't need a new field, but it seems also that the idea of designing progress is a fool's errand.

<comment><USER13> I like to think of it as a matter of scale. At a very low scale, a human mind designing a process can be efficient (a specific part of an assembly line, a function, etc.) As you scale, you quickly reach a point where one mind is worse than many, even if those minds are communicating mostly through such apparently low-bandwidth measures as observing the flow of money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The physicist David Deutsch wrote a superb book about the kinds of ideas that lead to progress and those that lead to regress. It's called _The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations that Transform the World_ (2011). [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DXR5ZC](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DXR5ZC)

</comment><comment><USER8> > When anthropologists look at scientists, they're trying to understand the > species. But when viewed through the lens of Progress Studies, the implicit > question is how scientists (or funders or evaluators of scientists) should > be acting.

I have had a few recent exchanges with anthropologists and it doesn't seem they are interested in moralistic claims apart from defending the current academic framework. For example they were highly skeptical of science when it doesn't support the "nurture" side on the nature vs nurture debate, discarding scientific evidence as invalid using weak arguments. It was surprising to me how prevalent and an orthodoxy this is, and it seems they have contracted the relativistic disease that is prevalent in the social sciences for decades. I suppose most agree that progress is not an implied good (Plenty of comments here express that view). Pity because anthropology is IMO the most interesting social science.

As for measuring progress in science, the problem is that the vast majority of scientists are content with the current system of small unambitious steps, low risks and easy content-free papers, so you won't easily find many supporters there.

</comment><comment><USER15> We don't need a field of study, just a new definition of the word.

Right now progress is More Jobs and More GDP. A lot of people wind up getting left out in the cold because progress jobs and GDP growth don't require helping everyone who needs it.

Maybe progress should mean ensuring every human is healthy, fed, housed, and has access to education and the global network.

<comment><USER16> > Maybe progress should mean ensuring every human is healthy, fed, housed, and > has access to education and the global network.

I don't think that's an attainable goal, or at the very least it's not a realistic short or long term goal. There are so many other things we have to fix before that goal makes sense.

<comment><USER17> I'm curious, what do you think those 'things we have to fix' first are? Why they are a higher priority?

<comment><USER16> These are contentious so please don't downvote for an idea...

To start, I think a severe underlying problem America is facing is just that there isn't much community here, compared to other first world countries. How long have our families been living in the same place? Not long for most of us. I think this is causing some turmoil in the trust department.

Also, we really need to work on our regulations. We have a bad habit of legislating from the heart, but end up producing side effects that hurt us. For instance, laws preventing giving food to the homeless. Over-regulating also drives cost up for business, causing them to raise prices.

Another is minimum wage. Americans have a hard time admitting that increasing minimum wage has negative side effects, especially on small business. We can address the homeless problem pretty easily if we could decrease the minimum wage for them. And before you get angry at this one, what kind of smartphone are you using? There's a reason our jobs go over seas.

Jobs that would pay very low wage wouldn't be difficult jobs, but they also wouldn't care if the person is only half mentally there. Small pay, small work, you can be promoted and given raise. A factory for instance could even build a campground with facilities. How many homeless folks would love to have that opportunity? How many more potential employers does that produce?

We should also consider decreasing the federal budget and start paying off our debt, no? I would think that's a pretty important thing to keep in mind also.

These things are needed in order to achieve a more universal happiness.

<comment><USER18> >We can address the homeless problem pretty easily if we could decrease the minimum wage for them... Jobs that would pay very low wage wouldn't be difficult jobs, but they also wouldn't care if the person is only half mentally there. Small pay, small work, you can be promoted and given raise. A factory for instance could even build a campground with facilities."

Congratulations, you've just reinvented fuedalism, complete with the keep. Not trying to be flippant, but this is a perfect example of how 'rational' geeks can trivially rationalise literally anything, by ignoring context and history. Protections like minimum wage, safe working conditions, minimum work age etc didn't arise de novo. They exist (all be it in a much more limited form in the US than elsewhere in the developed world), because of repeated public outrage at the abuses their lack engendered. Repealing them to 'create jobs' as though that were in itself a nebulous good is the same logic that has prisoners in chain gangs (universally from poor, and overwhelmingly black) recreating the era of slavery in Texas.

<comment><USER19> >>because of repeated public outrage at the abuses their lack engendered.

I recommend anyone who holds this view to read at least one book written by Thomas Sowell.

Example: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Criticisms...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Criticisms_of_the_book)

Repeated public outrage: cars are becoming less safe.

Economist: There is a tradeoff between safety and affordability, and making cars safer means less poor people can actually afford to buy them. In turn, this makes transportation even harder for them, which in turn means they will have fewer chances to improve their lives.

Repeated public outrage: lack of minimum wage will cause more exploitation.

Economist: Minimum wage destroys job opportunities for low skilled workers, who are already heavily marginalized in society. And once they are out of the job market, it becomes even harder for them to return to it.

<comment><USER20> > Minimum wage destroys job opportunities for low skilled workers, who are > already heavily marginalized in society. And once they are out of the job > market, it becomes even harder for them to return to it.

That's why you create unemployment benefit, preferably in a way that does not discourage going back to work.

This way, works with starvation wages don't exist, and low-skilled workers have a chance to prepare for their next job (and even to be a bit picky). In my view this improves the job market much better than a race to the bottom in working conditions and salaries.

<comment> barry-cotter > That's why you create unemployment benefit, preferably in a way that does > not discourage going back to work.

Alternatively you could subsidise low wage employment via a wage subsidy like the earned income tax credit. That way you get more people in work as opposed to fewer and those people develop skills and professional networks which will allow the recipients to escape low wage work in time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I have seen a lot of push back in various forums and whenever this link is tweeted but a lot of it seems to conflate "materials science" and "civil engineering" or "mechanical engineering." There is a very big difference between understanding historical trends--which is very important--and designing viable positive sum technology ecosystems. That being said, here are six technology historians I have found very insightful:

Donald Cardwell in "Turning Points in Western Technology"

Joel Mokyr in "Lever of Riches" and "Gifts of Athena"

Edward Hutchinson in "Cognition in the Wild"

James Utterback "Mastering the Dynamics of Innovation"

David A. Mindell "Between Human and Machine: Feedback, Control, and Computing before Cybernetics"

Stephen B. Johnson "The Secret of Apollo: Systems Management in American and European Space Programs"

</comment><comment><USER22> This stuff exists. The White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (broker), DARPA (demand), every company (demand) and every company's R&D division (supply). The problem is there's 7 billion people, and fully half of them are above average. The demand signalers are constantly hunting for supply, while the suppliers are constantly hunting for buyers. It takes radical amounts of cross-training to have any hope of comprehending the available possibilities.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm about 2/3 of the way through AntiFragile, and so scoffing at the whole idea that academic institutions or scholarly study produce or contribute to progress at all. What we need is not more academics, but the reinstatement of the apprenticeship system.

<comment><USER24> You know how academia works, right? It and the trades are the only apprentice systems going…

<comment><USER25> This is true. A PhD is very close to an apprenticeship model: study at the feet of an expert doing simple work, prove your competence (master's degree/prelims) to start working on your own account under supervision, finally submit masterwork (PhD thesis) to be counted as an expert yourself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Authors: Patrick Collison and Tyler Cowen

</comment><comment><USER26> > Why did Silicon Valley happen in California rather than Japan or Boston? Why > was early-20th-century science in Germany and Central Europe so strong?

In which the authors conveniently ignore the existence of a number of disciplines, like the history of science and technology, addressing precisely the questions that they're asking.

<comment><USER27> They don't ignore them at all, they explain why having this stuff spread over a large number of non-communicating disciplines is bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> an extremely Software Dude take: "This hasn't been systematized the way I'm imagining it so it doesn't exist yet."

</comment><comment><USER29> This is the program of the Bavarian Illuminati.

<comment><USER30> Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

<comment><USER29> Sorry. While partially meant as an in-joke for Robert Anton Wilson fans, I'm actually serious: the is no mention of religion or spirituality in the program outlined. To me it seems relevant (or at least interesting) both that this is a purely secular or materialist concept of progress; and that it's hardly "New".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Isn't this what philosophy in government and economics are? I took a Critical Theory course in college. We read Kant, Hagel, Marx, Marcuse and Adorno, and that's what their writing is all about— what all this we call "progress" is even progressing towards and what that means for the world, for individuals, etc.

I feel like the United States has just forsaken philosophy, especially as it relates to economics, in favour of their Chicago School theories of free markets. Now that the markets have been let to run free, and they're running towards nothing good in particular, perhaps it's time to just look back at all the literature written elsewhere on these matters.

<comment><USER12> Many free-market oriented people would disagree that we've let the free market run amok, as measured by the percentage of the economy that the government spends directly or controls through price controls.

I would agree that a stress on philosophy in economics would be helpful, but people like Hayek wrote in a philosophical way having seen the societies that adopted ideas of Marx and found even further dysfunction.

<comment><USER31> Glad to see someone actually comment and not just downvote haha.

> Many free-market oriented people would disagree that we've let the free > market run amok, as measured by the percentage of the economy that the > government spends directly or controls through price controls.

I agree with this actually. The federal government does move the pieces quite a bit and there's definitely people who think it could be even more free. Though to be fair, I'm thinking about this in relation to other countries like some in Europe, for example. In that context, I get the sense the US is more scared of regulation and in general prefers letting the market decide.

For example, plastic bags. The UK has introduced a charge on them, and is going to enforce a ban soon. In the US you see less action in this direction, and the general trend I see to fight the issue is "lets educate the population so they crate demand for alternative options".

IMO, what the UK is doing is progress— they've identified the moral obligation to take better care of the environment and through policy they're altering the market to work towards it. The US seems to prefer to "progress" according to market demand. If this idea is to be made policy, first it has to be demanded by the market. I could be wrong though ¯\\\\\\_(ツ)\\_/¯

This is of course at a Federal level, because at a state and municipal level I do hear of more independent action taken in the US.

> I would agree that a stress on philosophy in economics would be helpful, but > people like Hayek wrote in a philosophical way having seen the societies > that adopted ideas of Marx and found even further dysfunction.

That's true. I'm not arguing for the adoption of societies modeled after the ideas of Marx, which are notoriously vague. I'm more just making the case that there's previous literature reflecting on what "progress" is, and arguing that perhaps it's not just increasing GDP without bounds.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> It's literally only the tech community that thinks that "Progress itself is understudied". People who work in the humanities have been studying these topics since antiquity, and they have been desperately trying to get people in the STEM fields to listen, only to be ignored.

read the responses to The Atlantic tweeting this out. [https://twitter.com/TheAtlantic/status/1156260396317253632](https://twitter.com/TheAtlantic/status/1156260396317253632)

> there is no broad-based intellectual movement focused on understanding the > dynamics of progress

The major difference between what they're saying and existing fields (history, sociology, STS, economics, urbanism) is that the authors are only talking about looking at successes, not failures. That is juvenile at best, catastrophic at worst. Studying progress without studying failure is incredibly ill-defined, because you have to start by defining progress, and you can't actually guarantee progress without studying failure and studying how to avoid failure. I'm sure we can all come together and agree on a single definition of progress, right? Seems so straightforward.

This article is embarrassingly dismissive of other fields.

<comment><USER33> _The major difference between what they 're saying and existing fields (history, sociology, STS, economics, urbanism) is that the authors are only talking about looking at successes, not failures. That is juvenile at best, catastrophic at worst. Studying progress without studying failure is incredibly ill-defined, because you have to start by defining progress, and you can't actually guarantee progress without studying failure and studying how to avoid failure._

You perfectly articulated what I wanted to write but couldn't find the right words. Reinventing the wheel is one thing, but reinventing it and adding corners to it is just embarrassing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Progress is an illusion. No such thing as progress. According to the second law of thermodynamics things can only get worse we can only conserve what is good already before its inevitable decay. Progress is snake oil, eternal yough, perpetual machines, ideal cities and so on : Utopias, scams, wishful thinking at best. All this has the fear of death as a root cause.

<comment><USER35> You're not allowed to say these things in tech circles or imply that a person from an older era might prefer it over ours (or god forbid that a modern person might prefer to live an older or less tech-ey lifestyle), or limits to growth...

<comment><USER36> Of course you are allowed: you just did it here, and nobody prohibited it.

What you seem to request is that nobody is criticizing your stance. But why would you be entitled to that?

<comment><USER35> > _Of course you are allowed: you just did it here, and nobody prohibited it._

Yeah, it was a turn of phrase, didn't mean its literally banned.

You're not banned, you're just not welcome to say it, you will be treated as pariah for saying it, you will get downvoted to death, and if a discussion happens to grow around such a viewpoint, it will be in all probability marked "dead".

> _What you seem to request is that nobody is criticizing your stance._

No, what I request is that people give thought to such propositions and argue with counter-arguments as opposed to facile dismissals and outrage...

<comment><USER36> Already the parent didn't make a big effort to argue, it was more like literature ("progress is an illusion"), paired with a very far-fetched conclusion from the second law of thermodynamics. On the latter, a proper counter argument was given.

You didn't argue at all yet, so it is not really a surprise that nobody gives counter-arguments.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Real wish or drunken regret? A "Do Not Resuscitate" tattoo throws doctors - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/real-wish-or-drunken-regret-a-do-not-resuscitate-tattoo-throws-doctors/ <comment><USER2> Poor soul. Hope he had a good time on his way out. Cheers!</comment>


Ask HN: What's your strategy to learn new programming language/technology? - <AUTHOR>

I am planning to learn Flask and NodeJS in next 3 months. I know it well that best way to learn something new is to actually work on it. My question is what approach should be useful to learn internals of new skill? How effectively could it be done?<p>Thanks <comment><USER2> "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Try to take what you learn and parse it to someone else. I find that I retain and understand information better if I have to explain it to someone around me.</comment>


Integromat – A tool for automating manual processes - <AUTHOR> https://www.integromat.com <comment><USER2> "We have detected you are using an active AdBlock on your web browser. Please disable it. Do not worry, we will not bother you with ads. However, some parts of our website may not work properly or stop working, if your Adblocker is enabled."

If I can't read about your product with my adblocker on, your product isn't worth my time.

<comment><USER3> > If I can't read about your product with my adblocker on, your product isn't > worth my time.

Maybe just put this in your HN profile? It's kind of repetitive to see those same comments over and over again whenever a website warns against ad blockers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It looks good but I don't think that it's powerful than Zapier. Creating a workflow is harder than Zapier and integrations are not enough. I wanted to create a workflow that fetches data from an external RESTful API, parses the response and for each item of the response array performs another HTTP request and then finally merges the output the HTTP calls and sends a email to me. I'm not sure that this a common case but I can do it this in Zapier with Javascript and advanced transformation tool but I couldn't figure out how to create a workflow like this in Integromat.

You should really consider adding programming language support in order to be able to provide advanced features, otherwise it would be a service similar to IFTTT and I would pay it since IFTTT is free and easy to use.

<comment><USER5> It can be done with Integromat without writing a single line of code. This is the flow you need:

HTTP - Process a HTTP request

JSON - Parse JSON (parses the http request)

HTTP - Process a HTTP request (processed for each item in parsed JSON array)

Tools - Basic Aggregator (aggregates the JSON module, merges the output of inner HTTP module)

Email - Send an email (sends you an email)

Thats it.

Patrik, Integromat team

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Looks interesting. I would suggest having a bunch of non-trivial examples of the services doing interesting things. Like checking a website at scheduled intervals, processing the contents with some logic, and then sending an email report. Preferably examples that don't require logins.

<comment><USER7> I found samples here: [https://www.integromat.com/en/browse](https://www.integromat.com/en/browse)

<comment><USER8> Thanks. As a note to the site admins, I'd suggest making that page _much_ more prominent. It's basically the first information I was looking for after the tagline -- what does it _really_ do?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback Silhouette, much apreciated! We are aware of this and new homepage is comming next week. Ondrej, Integromat team

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> First question that popped in my mind: how is this better than IFTTT, Microsoft Flow, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Integromat.com is an integration and automation service offering features that you won't find on other similar services. We do everything that other automation services like Zapier or IFTTT offers, but we are adding a wide range of more advanced options. Here is a short overview:

* Automations can be very complex. You can automate an unlimited number of consecutive actions, not just 1:1 (if this:then that). Each action has at its disposal data returned by previous actions. This allows you to automate your entire workflow, not just one part.

* Integromat gives you the possibility to use built-in routers to duplicate any incoming data. Using routers, you can divide your scenario into multiple routes and process data separately in each route. More information can be found here: [http://intm.at/b/4](http://intm.at/b/4)

* Integromat supports dynamically created inputs and outputs. Thanks to this feature you can, for example, call remote database procedures and map their input and output variables. It's a function that you won´t find anywhere else.

* Built-in feeders are special modules that can split incoming data into multiple parts and then process each part separately. For example, if you receive an email with multiple attachments, you can handle each attachment separately.

* Aggregators, on the other hand, allow to merge individual data into a single bundle. We can, for example, create a ZIP archive of files contained in a specific folder and then save it or send it anywhere. More information on feeders and aggregators can be found here: [http://intm.at/b/3](http://intm.at/b/3)

* We can work with files as if they were binary data. Therefore we do not need to know the path to a folder. This lets you, for example, transform images or work with file content as with a text. Another unique feature is the possibility to schedule webhooks. With Integromat you can, for example, make an automation that will gather text messages received on your mobile phone during a day and then at midnight select a winner. Standard webhooks are of course also supported.

* We support serialization and deserialization of JSON documents and give you the possibility to work with your data in any way. Nested objects or fields are no problem for us.

* Thanks to the transaction processing of data, Integromat is able to complete an entire automation as scheduled. In case of error, Integromat reverts all changes and restores the initial state. In short, it will either perform all actions as scheduled or nothing.

* Integromat stores incomplete runs (DLQ). If an automation encounters an error, we will save its state. This ensures that no data are lost. You can then fix the issue and continue executing from where it was stopped. * Perfect visualization of everything you do. From possibility to watch how your automation is being executed to visualization of data flow in the Execution history.

Currently, we support 105 services and thanks to the integrated support for the most widely used databases (MySQL, MS SQL, PostgreSQL) Integromat offers almost unlimited possibilities for automation. We continuously expand our list of supported services.

Here is a short video to show you how our user interface looks like. We focus on clarity and easy use: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Q9rh9VWEo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Q9rh9VWEo)

Basic accounts are free and gives you a chance to experience everything what Integromat has to offer.

Ondrej, Integromat Team

<comment><USER10> All these are cool features, but it would be great if there were a higher level expert system too.

For example, have expert templates for Subaru cars, that integrates dash.by and jiffy lube, my insurance, waze, the manufacture etc. then just apply common things I'd want in a single click.

* Such as schedule an oil change on my calendar on the weekend when I'd normally get my oil changed.

* Does my manufacture have any serious issues I should know about?

* Check how many miles I'm driving, and see if my insurance policy could be updated to reduce my rate.

* Suggest a gas station that's on my routes that are more cost effective than the one I'm using.

* Remember where I parked my car in case I forget.

* If I park in a 2hr zone, use pay by phone to pay the parking automatically for me.

* If I'm going to the Symphony, schedule a Lux to meet me out front.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> A small side note: I checked the footer for an "About" or "Team" page, but found nothing. Checked the "Contact" page and sure enough, it's an East- European company.

There seems to be a fear of publicly disclosing who is behind projects in the whole area. Ondrej, could you offer an opinion?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello, thanks for the suggestion, we will add "About us" page.

Anyway, Czech Republic is not in Eastern Europe. Prague is more to the west then Vienna :) We are Central Europe, like Germany ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe)) ;-)

We also have a branch based in US, as you saw on our Contact page.

Please, go to www.justice.cz (public register of compaines in Czech Republic) and enter our company ID number, as shown at Contact page, to the field Veřejný rejstřík. You will see the complete info about the company's structure, with owners etc. Everything is public, nothing hidden.

<comment><USER12> Prague is very cool! Just a related note but when giving support on a social site like this, its a nice touch to use a personal account and be a real human rather than using a faceless company account.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion, you know, we are still learning :) Ondrej, Integromat team

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Interesting UI; I really like the way you can rearrange things visually in way that makes sense to the user.

Was able to get a simple flow up and running quite fast. There are a few rough edges though, had a small issue with the URL field of the http integration.

Will try it out for more complex scenario's ...

</comment><comment><USER14> I watched the demo video here to really understand it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUmF6_4WhSg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUmF6_4WhSg) and in that demo they sort files by matching strings in a MIME_TYPE. What kind of normal person has any idea what a MIME type is? I think the marketing targeting this at people who know no programming is a bit off -- or they should change the marketing and target developers -- we could probably use this too!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback John. We have launched public beta 10 weeks ago, so we are not yet fully prepared to provide all needed HOW-TOs to both developers and common users, but we are working hard to achieve that goal! Ondrej, Integromat team

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Is this mean to compete with Zapier?

I like the concept but have personally never found a use for my workflow. Can somebody share their most popular / practical automation tips?

<comment><USER16> A few I've used:

\- Pushing conversions on a website to a Slack channel

\- Pushing conversions from a website into a CRM (like Salesforce IQ)

\- Pushing conversions on a website to gsheets

\- Get an update in Slack, email, etc. when something happens on a Github repo (new issue, PR, comment, etc.)

<comment><USER15> I'm not being dense, I promise, but can't all of these tools notify you by email as part of their own settings?

For example, we use shipstation and woocommerce, both can notify via email for just about any user action. I've seen the same from GitHub, at least in relation to comments.

<comment><USER16> Indeed. But Zapier provides a single place to manage all of those feeds. On top of that they integrate via APIs so you can push selective information/data as you see fit. Much more customizable than using built in notifications.

<comment><USER15> That makes sense, thanks :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Small suggestion: "complexity" is not generally seen as a positive feature of a product. You might try "flexibility" or something like that.

</comment><comment><USER18> This seems very well executed, at least the interface UX. I'll spend more time playing with it tonight to test the rest.

</comment><comment><USER19> Very nice product. On the sidenote as I am from Czech Republic as well, are you looking for new people?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Myslik, we are looking for Node.js developers, for more informations, please contact me at firstname.lastname@example.com. Thanks, Ondrej

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Any plans for Smartsheet integration?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion, we will add it to our todo list. If you would like to get notified when it's done, please get in touch with us at firstname.lastname@example.com, so we will have your email and can let you know :) Thanks, Ondrej

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Some UI screenshots would help.

<comment><AUTHOR> Nitrogen, you can find it in our Help section, for example here: [https://www.integromat.com/en/kb/first- scenario.html](https://www.integromat.com/en/kb/first-scenario.html)

And here is a short demonstration of our UI: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Q9rh9VWEo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Q9rh9VWEo)

Ondrej, Integromat team

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> How is this different from Zapier or IFTTT?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello, please look here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12268656](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12268656)

Ondrej, Integromat team

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> "We have detected you are using an active AdBlock on your web browser. Please disable it. Do not worry, we will not bother you with ads. However, some parts of our website may not work properly or stop working, if your Adblocker is enabled."

That's a first. And a huge put-off from continuing to view your site.. I closed it.

<comment><USER24> The two blocked files I see are track.min.js and js/ads.js! [Please turn off your adblocker so we can serve you ads and track you even if we say we won't.]

<comment><USER5> The level of items being blocked always depends on how the AdBlock is set up. As I wrote in my previous reply, it's just a warning, you can have AdBlock enabled but you might expect issues with social modules (like facebook, twitter and others).

Anyway, have you seen content of the files you mention? The first one is [https://trackjs.com](https://trackjs.com) (tool for tracking client-side errors), second one serves just to detect AdBlock and show you the warning.

Patrik, Integromat team

<comment><USER21> Does this mean that your integrations run on the web browser rather than your servers?

<comment><AUTHOR> Of course not, our servers do all the work :) We have a wide options for scheduling the runs.

Ondrej, Integromat Team</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ted Kennedy has died - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/us/politics/27kennedy.html?hp

<comment><USER2> I was in Mass General Hospital about a year ago on the exact day that Kennedy was. Strangely enough, I found out I had brain cancer too that night. Luckily, mine was not as serious as his. I feel fortunate.

<comment><USER3> Get well, Dan.

<comment><USER2> Oh, no, I'm perfectly fine now. I found out a month after they did the craniotomy that it wasn't a big deal.

<comment><USER4> How does one discover that they have brain cancer?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> So you're posting this here just in case hackers don't read newspapers?

<comment><USER6> Right on. Those of us outside the states just don't care that one of your politicians died - unless he was a competent computer expert. I come here for "Hacker News", not political death notices.

Shall I post here when a long-serving New Zealand politician dies?

<comment><USER7> As an Australian, I care.

The influence of America on the rest of the world, particularly insignificant antipodean islands like yours and mine, is massive and the death of Democratic Senator #60 (I'm counting the two independents where they caucus) has potentially large consequences for the power struggle in Washington.

That's it's Teddy Kennedy, long-time driver of Health Care reform at a time when that's either the #1 or 2 issue in the States, makes it even more so. You don't think efficiencies for Big Pharma in the US would affect our health care?

Admittedly, I'm a bit of an amerophile, particularly US politics. The US Electoral College? Possibly the greatest social hack of the 18th Century.

<comment><USER8> It's not hacker news. If you want the nytimes you know where to find it. This post is pollution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> His greatest influence on history, without comment,

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965)

</comment><comment><USER10> Dennis Leary said it best: Great Senator, but a bad date.

</comment><comment><USER11> What I can gather from his Wikipedia page is that Kennedy, like Clinton was a good politician but a consummate womaniser.

I have always wondered why citizens expect politicians to be 'moral' and whether 'immoral' politicians are necessarily bad leaders?

<comment><USER12> America's got a fucked-up sense of morality. Everybody's messed up in one way or another romantically. We have a distorted sense of expectation, mixed with a bunch of weird ideas about what's appropriate and what isn't.

There've been many perfect gentlemen politicians that were terrible. I hope one day we start judging politicians the way we would businessmen, wherein personal life matters less than performance.

<comment><USER13> Just a minor quibble, not meant to detract your point: it's curious that even as you criticize America's sense of morality, you seem to use "gentlemen" as opposed to "womanizer".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Sad to see him go-- on the upside, he can finally be reunited with his brothers and old family friends like Mary Jo Kopechne and Martha Moxley.

<comment><USER15> Except that he won't.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> He did the seeming impossible: he lived up to the reputation of his brothers as their equal. An amazing senator. A very great loss.

<comment><USER17> While Ted was _a pretty cool guy, eh garnered appropriations and doesn't afraid of anything_ , I don't think anyone could really live up to his brothers.

John was an order of magnitude greater, and Bobby was at least an order of magnitude greater than that!

Bobby was everything Obama aspires to be and more. His assassination was probably the worst event of '68 -- and a fuckton of awful shit happened that year: the crushing of Prague Spring, the events of May in Paris, MLK's assassination, the DNC in Chicago, the burning of DC, Nixon's election -- it was the last gasp of modernity. I can't think about it without crying.

<comment><USER18> How are you quantifying greatness? Everyone on this site loves to say "order of magnitude."

<comment><USER17> It lets you specify scale without any unwanted precision

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This man's presence was earth-shattering. His legend will be even more so. The world has a lot to learn from him. RIP

<comment><USER20> What is Ted Kennedy's lesson for the world? From my perspective, the guy was a career politician and part of an unpleasant dynastic trend in American government. How would the world be different had Kennedy not lived?

<comment><USER21> Especially this one. I'm hesitant to comment on this because this article really doesn't belong here. But the fact remains Ted Kennedy left a woman for dead after driving his car into a body of water. He didn't contact the authorities when it happened, he instead went back to his hotel. When at his hotel (and I take this quote from the Wikipedia entry) he...

"According to his own testimony, Kennedy swam across the 500-foot channel, back to Edgartown and returned to his hotel room, where he removed his clothes and collapsed on his bed. Hearing noises, he later put on dry clothes and asked someone what the time was: it was something like 2:30 a.m., the senator recalled. He testified that, as the night went on, "I almost tossed and turned and walked around that room ... I had not given up hope all night long that, by some miracle, Mary Jo would have escaped from the car." Back at his hotel, Kennedy complained at 2:55 am to the hotel owner that he had been awoken by a noisy party"

So he's complaining about the noise keeping him up while this woman's still at the bottom of the sea. The next morning (again from Wikipedia)...

"By 7:30 am the next morning he was talking "casually" to the winner of the previous day's sailing race, with no indication that anything was amiss.[2] At 8 a.m., Gargan and Markham joined Kennedy at his hotel where they had a "heated conversation." According to Kennedy's testimony, the two men asked why he hadn't reported the accident. Kennedy responded by telling them "about my own thoughts and feelings as I swam across that channel ... that somehow when they arrived in the morning that they were going to say that Mary Jo was still alive"

And the final kicker, he didn't contact the authorities until the body was found and the woman probably survived the crash. One last quote...

"Earlier that morning, two amateur fishermen had seen the overturned car in the water and notified the inhabitants of the nearest cottage to the pond, who called the authorities at around 8:20 am.[14] A diver was sent down and discovered Kopechne's body at around 8:45 am.[15] The diver, John Farrar, later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air bubble, and concluded that

"Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car."

So had he contacted the authorities she could have lived. And for all that he got a suspended sentence because he's rich and has a powerful family. I won't demonize the dead but I'm not going to sit by and let people lionize him either.

How is it that people can bash Michael Jackson after unproven accusations but let Kennedy off even though he admits to everything laid out above?

<comment><USER12> Perhaps those of us that like Ted Kennedy weren't the ones bashing Michael Jackson?

I'm inclined to forgive people their many, many errors. I see no harm in looking at a man's accomplishments and ignoring his failures.

Michael Jackson was a man who changed the entertainment world. Ted Kennedy spent decades fighting for his causes without rest. Each did unpleasant things, but those things don't eliminate the good each did.

<comment><USER21> I do see a problem in ignoring a fault when that fault is "killed someone and received no punishment for it". It's an injustice to the victim to do anything else.

If Justice is not an ideal you hold than you wouldn't agree with me on that.

<comment><USER12> Suggesting I don't believe in justice because I like Ted Kennedy? That's a bit vicious, don't you think?

Look, I think that Ted deserved punishment for what he did. Of course he did. At the same time, I can't blame him for using connections to get out of that mess. I'll be totally honest and say that if I fucked up big-time, I'd do everything I could to avoid years in prison for it. Not because I think people should get away with killing people, but because years in prison is a terrifying punishment. So while I kind of wish he'd been given more than a slap on the wrist, I don't hold it against him that he wasn't punished.

To suggest that he wasn't changed by what he did, however, is ludicrous. I'm certain he was haunted by that incident for a long, long time, and that it changed who he was as a person. Certainly the Ted Kennedy that died today was not the Ted Kennedy that once abandoned a dying woman.

We all grow up and leave our tragic youths behind. Some youths are just much more tragic than others.

<comment><USER22> > Certainly the Ted Kennedy that died today was not the Ted Kennedy that once > abandoned a dying woman.

In my experience that is a fallacy. Besides he was a politician - they know all about expected response. I don't think anyone here can make a statement like that.

(I know nothing about him, but it was a pretty sick thing to do. He certainly deserved a worse punishment)

<comment><USER12> He did. But avoiding punishment for that crime does not immediately make him a terrible human being, or a human being that's incapable of changing. He certainly changed, and for the better.

(I'll ignore the "he was a politician" quip, which proves nothing and says nothing.)

<comment><USER22> > (I'll ignore the "he was a politician" quip, which proves nothing and says > nothing.

That wasn't meant in the way you probably read it. Being a politician is a skill just like any job

As I said I don't know much about the guy, but in my experience of people in such a position (a public post) there is a difference between real change and the change we see :)

I'm just saying: only a few people (i.e. the close family) really could make a statement like that :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Ok, now I see why we should stay away from politics on HN. Too many people are downvoting/upvoting based on their political perceptions of TK. Do you really need to downvote someone into the negative for simply saying they liked the guy?

<comment><USER12> Jeez, they downvoted you for it, too.

Hacker News is very mature regarding certain things; regarding others, they act like kneejerk jackasses. Politics is one of the latter categories.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> For those of you who are questioning why this deserves to be here: obviously HN is predominantly tech/entrepreneur related, but don't be so fundamentalist about it. Ted Kennedy was a prolific senator who was one of the most influential members of the most powerful government in the world -- his death deserves discussion not just among those interested in politics but in other circles as well. HN has a great community where people value good analysis and feedback, why not occasionally apply those positive aspects to other topics as well?

<comment><USER12> There's a value in asking whether something's Hacker News or not. In the end, _we_ are the users, and _we_ decide what we want to see. When we don't like what we see, however, there's no harm in discussing it, in the hope that like- minded people see it and are inspired.

<comment><USER24> That's what the voting buttons next to the story are for. If you discuss the article itself, then you should add value to the discussion. Complaining about the presence of the story itself when the community obviously voted it up to the top is not adding value, it's only adding negativity.

<comment><USER12> I would agree if there was a downvote option, so that people who don't like a story could have a say. As it is, a vocal-and-irritating minority can push stories to the top without anybody else being able to stop it.

(I don't refer to this story when I say that, mind you. We all have our pet peeves.)

<comment><USER25> A clever solution would be a downvote button that behaves the same as the "flag" link ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Why is this here? I'm a US citizen and I still don't think it ought to be.

<comment><USER27> It shouldn't be, but politics is a religion for many who lean left. One of the biggest liberal names just passed away, so it's here. My comment is way out of line, but so is this submission, but that's what happens when politics is introduced.

<comment><USER28> _It shouldn't be, but politics is a religion for many who lean left_

Aw crap, you and I are now gong to start a political argument on HN. Well it's a Ted Kennedy story so here we go.

A clear majority of hackers, including me, are libertarians, not liberals. And I guess (but actually mostly hope) most of the HN readership is libertarian.

And I definitely don't think this belongs on HN. But I also very much doubt "liberals" are voting it up.

<comment><USER27> I'll end it. I hope you have a wonderful day my dear HN friend.

<comment><USER28> Thank you, and the same to you my friend.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> If still alive he'd be a major force for passing the kind of healthcare legislation that could have liberated Americans from employer-provided insurance as the only option. This would have freed a great deal of energy for risks like starting a business. That he became sick and died now is a a loss of leadership in the effort to make the dynamism of entrepreneurship, among other things, available to more people.

<comment><USER30> The government is treaty-obligated to provide health care to a section of the population and are doing a offensive job. If they can't do it right for ~7 million Native Americans, what chance do they have to do it right for the rest of the USA?

<comment><USER29> They do it right for veterans, and they even do it fairly well for the elderly. Why not everyone else?

<comment><USER30> From personal experience of friends, they mess up a lot of veterans' lives, and that, in my mind, is a serious breach of trust. Look at the recent scandals in the VA for incidents.

<comment><USER29> Seriously even with the scandals the veterans' lives are not peachy until they hit the VA. Iraq?

I was in and out of a lot of Veterans hospitals when I worked in an ambulance, they have fantastic care if you give it some context with the rest of the healthcare system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Like so many on both sides of the aisle, he was too long a 'public servant.' Rest and be at peace.

</comment><comment><USER32> I heard some young girl was drunk and got in a car accident, and left him for dead. (too soon?)

<comment><USER33> I heard that some guy joined Facebook and left TipJoy for dead. (too soon?) ;)

<comment><USER32> lol.

On a serious note, I wrote the comment mainly because people ignore manslaughter, which is inexcusable. But also because a person that spends years in public office isn't there "for the public good". That's just rhetoric that gets people elected. I'm amazed people still buy into the idea that politicians are good people. Enterprising startup founders, or even miscellaneous hackers working on interesting projects, do far more for the public good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Man, 77, dies.

</comment><comment><USER35> This may not be tech, but the impact he's made is bigger than any one industry.

</comment><comment><USER28> Also, Michael Jackson - still dead!

</comment><comment><USER36> Where is the flag button?

</comment><comment><USER37> he is a great man. rest in peace.

</comment><comment><USER38> To comprehend the breadth of this man's persona, ask yourself "what do I do each day to help other people?" The man never stopped.

<comment><USER39> I volunteer as a lifeguard.

<comment><USER38> At 10,000 swimming pools at once?

<comment><USER40> The comment was probably in reference to the incident at Chappaquiddick rather than a suggestion that one would be more effective at saving lives as a lifeguard than as a Senator wielding enormous influence.

In the version of events most favorable to Kennedy, he suffered a tragic lapse in judgment (failing to summon aid) which compounded the results of an unfortunate auto accident, and a young woman drowned as a result.

The version which is more charitable to the truth and less charitable to Kennedy: He was drunk driving late at night on an isolated road with a young woman who was not his wife. He got into a car accident, which involved his car falling into the water with the two of them in it. After extracting himself from the car, he went home, went to sleep, woke up, talked to his political advisers, then called the police and informed them that there had been an accident.

For normal Americans, that would have resulted in an investigation followed by manslaughter charges. Kennedy was never a normal American. He got off with a wrist slap after pleading guilty to leaving the scene of an accident.

The whitewashing of this incident has always been a stitch in the craw of his political opponents. His political supporters say some variant of the following every time it gets brought up: mistakes were made, it is long in the past, nothing was ever proven, and now is not the right time to mention it.

I'm sort of unsure about the etiquette myself. What's the polite way to say "Ted Kennedy was a man who did many things unrelated to causing the death of his paramour in the cause of protecting his political career"?

<comment><USER38> Thanks for your clarification and insight:)

Being born in 1981, I'll write my previous comment off to generational ignorance.

I appreciate your thorough and thoughtful response.

<comment><USER41> The year you were born in can not be an excuse for ignorance on any level. Yesterday it was 'the holocaust was before my time', now this.

There are history books aplenty out there.

<comment><USER12> I wasn't aware, Jacques, that it was our responsibility to be aware of every tragedy and every death in the history of mankind.

I could spend years studying every genocide, every cruelty, going on in the world today, all of which are worse than a single drunk driving accident. I could spend years and plummet into the darker parts of the world. I choose not to.

Not knowing who Ted Kennedy is an ignorance that can surely be forgiven.

<comment><USER41> Absolutely.

But if someone insists on having a strong opinion on something without studying it and then uses the 'before I was born' argument to be excused I think that's pretty weak.

The fact that a man has died is no reason to drop objectivity about that man.

There was plenty good about Ted Kennedy, there was plenty of bad stuff too. Like almost any human being alive today, I'd imagine.

Some of the stuff he did was at best misguided, at worst criminal neglect. He seemed to have been more protective of his career than of the life of a human being when it mattered most. I know politicians are 'survival masters' but that particular incident should have cost him his career and some jail time at a minimum.

What kind of an example does that set for 'lesser' mortals ?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> An oblique link to HN - Kennedy was a senator for Massachusetts, the original home of YC.

</comment><comment><USER43> .

(edit: I have nothing to say, and I'm saying it. You don't have to upvote it but it isn't meant as a comment to be downvoted either, just an acknowledgment).

<comment><USER44>

<comment><USER44> What? I was showing him how to do it!

Man people sure are happy on the down-arrow today.

<comment><USER12> The period is common practice on some sites. I think it originated with Metafilter?

It loses something when comments are voted up and down and not shown in descending order, but the sentiment is still nice.

<comment><USER44> Oh, I see, thanks for the explanation.

My character was U+3000, "ideographic space", in case anyone's interested.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What smartphone would you recommend with superb battery life? - ng-user As the title suggests, I'm in the market for a new smartphone and the sole thing I care about is battery life. I currently have a Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge, I unplug it at 08:00 with 100% and find by 10:00-12:00 the battery is already significantly drained ~50-70% remaining.
It's quite unacceptable and I can honestly say if I don't charge it throughout the day it will die around 15:00-16:00.
I've had the device for two years and what I've learned most is that I'm NOT buying another Samsung. The amount of irremovable bloatware, including the f*cking Facebook app I NEVER use is irritating. Something with a microSD card slot would be nice, removable battery too, obviously it'd be cool to have a fingerprint scanner but it's definitely not necessary.
I would love to hear what the HN crowd recommends, I'm willing to do a lot (i.e. ditch the phone contract, purchase from Amazon/Ebay etc.) to ensure I have a good lasting phone I'm not going to regret in 3 months. <comment><USER2> My phone lasts more than a week. Here's how to do it:

1\. Turn off data.

2\. Turn off GPS.

3\. Turn off wifi.

4\. Only use it for phone calls and SMS. Turn on data/wifi/GPS when you _actually_ need them.

As a bonus you can now switch to a cheap pay-per-MB plan like [http://ting.com](http://ting.com) and save some money too.

(It's a Moto E, 2nd generation - $60 on EBay.)

<comment><USER3> If you only use the phone for calls and SMS, why do you have a smartphone? A simpler phone will make your battery last much longer

<comment><USER2> Because sometimes I _do_ need it, to check if an important email arrived, or to do map navigation. So it's nice to have the option.

<comment><USER3> That functionality also exits in some dumb phones. The experience is crap, but I guess it wouldn't matter if don't use it frequently.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, but you can get a not actually that bad smartphone for $60, so dumb phones aren't worth it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> MOTO Z PLAY

Battery life was the main selling point to me when I bought it half a year ago. With light usage it lasts 6 days (few hours screen time, few minutes of talk). Typically I charge it after 4 days when ~30% energy left. Recharges in an hour. Vanilla Android 7 after recent upgrade from the factory, no bloatware. One could even by an extra akku pack (as a moto mod) that integrates nicely to the back, but I didn't feel the need so far.

<comment><USER5> Seconded. I don't even bother bringing my charger if I'm going on a weekend trip.

It's too bad this phone doesn't get more notice. No bloatware was one of the main selling points for me too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think we have a problem with the apps getting bigger and doing more things. They use more resources and drain the battery faster. We have batteries bigger than ever, but still mobiles don't last for a day.

I would want to go back when the apps only did one thing, nowadays we have a lot of apps and they do a lot of things, even when you are not using them directly. So obviously the battery goes away very quickly. GPS on -> let's track the position, Wifi on -> let's synchronize everything, etc. Permission system should prevent this but it is not working when them we add those functionally to a library that doesn't require those permissions.

So, it doesn't matter which smartphone you will use, the duration of the battery is linked with the apps you have installed. That is why most comments here are about disabling things and uninstalling apps.

</comment><comment><USER6> I have a 4-year-old Samsung S3 Mini. I keep wi-fi, bluetooth, data, GPS turned off by default, make few calls, don't send or receive many texts, and if I don't use wi-fi or play games the battery will last several days - <AUTHOR> 5-6 days when the battery was new and now a bit less.

However, I do usually turn wi-fi on for 10-20 minutes a day (e.g. look at HN and follow links to a few different news articles - news sites can be quite processor-intensive) and that knocks at least a day off the battery life. If I play a game, even fairly simple puzzle games, I need to charge it that day.

I'm also on my third battery for it as the previous two eventually got to the point where they couldn't hold a charge at all, so I'm very reluctant to upgrade it to a model without replaceable battery, but alas, that leaves few options. I'd also like a new phone to fit in my pocket like the S3 mini does, and as far as I've seen those two criteria knock out every recent-gen phone.

I can only hope that sooner or later a company decides people like me are a big enough market segment to reach out for again, but I suppose people who are happy to keep a phone for 4 years are not good enough customers and need to be forced to buy a new phone every year by the battery dying.

<comment><USER7> I used to do something similar on my S2. With most things switched off, I frequently got 2 weeks without a charge. Others I know used some 3rd party apps to automatically switch wifi / data on for a few minutes every so often, to allow apps to sync. It's fairly easy to tap things on and off nowadays.

On the other hand, if you absolutely can't live without all the features turned on all the time, there are a variety of power banks and other ways to get a few more hours out of a battery.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> My OnePlus 3 is great. Decent build quality, up to date and clean version of Android, cheap, and with a bit of care I can make it through two days without charging. Another nice bonus feature is it charges from basically empty to basically full in 30 minutes (or from dead to 20% in 10 minutes) if you use special charger it comes with.

If buying a new Android phone today I would definitely be getting a new OnePlus.

</comment><comment><USER9> For the last few years I have been a big fan of the Motorola smartphones. I just bought a Moto G5 Plus. Basically has everything you wish for, but the removable battery.

It is nearly stock Android and has a good mix of specs. I have everything on (Wifi, Bluetooth (running a MiBand 2), GPS. I have a moderate usage and plug in the phone in the evening between 50 and 70%. There is Zero Bloatware on the thing. The fingerprint reader actions are just great. I have a work iPhone and caught myself using the same gestures on the iPhone, I even think they are better than the iPhone ones.

Before that I had a Moto G (1st Gen) and even that did last me a whole day without a problem. I just replaced it because my mother broke her phone, so she got the Moto G and I had a reason to buy the beauty Moto G 5 Plus.

I would recommend going for the plus, due to better specs. Runs smoothly and I have currently no point to complain. (Okay maybe missing compass, which makes finding the ISS in the night sky a bit hard. You also can't use augmented reality apps very much, because they use the compass for orientation (like flightradar24 or google googles)

<comment><USER10> What? They couldn't put in an IMU with a compass? My XPERIA M from 2013 didn't have a compass....such progress. Moto does some real awkward stuff like not having a simple flash LED on the E a while back.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> You can have this problem with any smartphone. Usually it's some app that's pegged a CPU, or (worse) the data connection. Don't know about Android, but on iOS you can pretty quickly identify an app that's gone nuts (the last time "60% at 10AM" happened to me, it was Apple's cloud sync), and there are readily available tools if you want to dig deeper.

A few years ago the same thing happened on a Windows phone (a fine phone, oaky? :-) ). Some system process, maybe a driver, was pegging the CPU, making the device hot to touch. With no system updates on the horizon, all AT&T could do was say "We can replace the phone with exact model under warranty."

"But the new phone will have exactly the same software, and that same bug."

"That's all we can do." I'm pretty sure the salestype was foggy on the concept, and frankly I'm not sure what I expected a salestype to say. When you're powerless you're not necessarily rational, on either side of the fence. I wound up with a discount on another brand of phone, the market in action, I guess.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm a total phone junkie who has about a dozen phones and enjoys switching around between them. I can very safely tell you that BY FAR the best phones for battery life are the Sony Xperia line. I know they're not all that popular in the U.S. due to lack of marketing and all but boy do they have AMAZING battery lives! Especially the Xperia X Compact. I'm not at all kidding or exaggerating when I say that I can easily get 3-4 days on a single charge. The STAMINA mode doesn't really take away much from the phone's capabilities but extends the life so significantly. Other than the Sony line, the Moto Z play is also quite good but I'm not a fan of Motorola since they completely stopped caring/supporting about their phones. Even the brand new Moto G5 Plus is still on the Jan security patch. So, it's really hard to recommend any Moto phone until Lenovo changes their stance.

</comment><comment><USER13> Moto Z Play. Multiple reviews confirm the (relatively) extraordinary battery life.

I got a Samsung Galaxy S7 last Thanksgiving because of a Black Friday promotion, but I wish I had ignored it and just gotten the Play anyway (for the battery life).

<comment><USER14> The battery life is excellent by all accounts, and keep in mind also that most of the reviews you find will be without the extended battery 'mod' that fits fairly well with the phone and often runs as a deal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> [http://www.mi.com/in/redmi3s/](http://www.mi.com/in/redmi3s/) Do not know if we can get it outside India.

<comment><USER16> I'm Xiaomi user also (Mi4C). Battery lasts 2 days (day + night + day), with 2 sim cards active and 4G and wifi enabled also. All automatic refresh (mail for example) is disabled, Facebook app deleted etc. However, I think good battery life is due to xiomi.eu rom.

<comment><USER17> I have a Nexus 6P, and, with Doze and all the new stuff, your battery shouldn't be dropping more than ~2% overnight (since you aren't using the phone). If it does, it means some app is waking the phone up constantly.

I use Greenify to kill unnecessary apps running in the background, but the MIUI flavor has that built-in.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I got a Huawei Y6 about half a year ago. It's got its share of crapware preinstalled, but it's very little and unobtrusive compared to what Samsung puts out there.

I usually keep Wifi, Mobile data, Bluetooth, and GPS turned on 24/7, and listen to music via Bluetooth headphones when commuting to and from work.

I haven't tried how long the battery will last when pushed, but when used lightly (i.e. music and the occasional text message) it will last at least 48 hours, probably more like 72. I usually charge it over night, but I forgot a few times, and on the next evening the phone was still at ~60% charge.

The specs are not overly impressive - 2GB RAM, 4GB internal storage (it has a MicroSD slot, though), I don't remember what CPU. But for my lowly needs, performance is satisfactory. Plus, it was pretty cheap, I got mine for about €140,- off of Amazon. The battery is removable.

There are two drawbacks, first of all this model is on a version of Android 5.x and won't get updates, secondly 4GB internal storage is not that much. There are other models by Huawei, though, that come with more recent versions of Android and are still quite affordable.

I don't know how long this phone will last. I usually use my phones until they just won't work any more, so six months is not a long time in my book. But I have no serious complaints so far.

<comment><USER19> I had a Huawei Ascend P7, and while its performance was a little worse than advertised (not really flagship power, more like a midrange phone), I was extremely impressed by its battery management (and the build quality was pretty good). It lasts up to 2 days without any special care, it has an app that aggresively monitors and throttles background tasks though.

<comment><USER20> Huawei huh, kinda turned me off when I bought their premium Ascend P6 and while it was well built, it had weird issues with the GPS (not working at all while driving), screen artifacts and micro SD card being constantly removed.

Oh and everything was seriously underclocked, CPU, GPU and RAM. It only went to maximum clocks after being over 99% load for a few seconds, so pretty much never, OR when it ran a benchmark app. Smartasses.

Fortunately it was really easy to undervolt and over clock (well, clock to advertised specs, at which it got hot as hell and ate through the battery faster than it would charge).

Really liked the hackability of that SOC, but Huawei pretty much lied about its performance.

<comment><USER19> Yeah they definitely lied through their teeth about performance.

I probably won't buy again. But it did have great battery performance.

I switched to an LG G3 and it's battery duration is awful (it has way too much screen I guess), and it still has stupid lags and freezes.

<comment><USER20> Every single phone I've had I've installed clean ROMs without any extras, and with multiple governors to choose from. Undervolting was useful every single time, too. But that's just optimizing your phone.

Sadly I don't know any phone that will last more than 5 hours of total screen on time (web browser, emails, notes app, messages, with 3G/wifi/Bluetooth on).

Every generation has some ridiculous additions (4K displays, LTE, more RAM and Ghz) that make battery life the same as a good old Droid.

Ive been using a HTC One M8 and can squeeze 5 hours of screen on (screen+3G/Wifi+BT, never LTE) time even with adaptive brightness on (which runs it at 100% a lot of times), on CyanogenMod (Android 5.1) with no extra crap. That's enough for a good day of use - charge at night, use during the day, it's at about 30% in the evening. GPS use can kill it though.

I would love a phone that can last 12 hours straight like that :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It seems like a software issue not a battery problem. Apps get automatically shut down on iOS for example when they drain your battery in the background.

Android should improve it's background management mechanism. I don't use android so I don't know if it shows a list of apps ordered by consumption. So you know which apps to remove. iOS provides that. Problem, iPhones do have a serious battery problem so I wouldn't necessaraly go with apple in your case.

</comment><comment><USER22> My Samsung galaxy S7 easily lasts a day. With full sync for my gmail and Outlook.

Maybe look into battery usage and see what is consuming so much battery.

</comment><comment><USER23> My OnePlus 3T is new and I mostly charge it at night, but when I forget it still ends up lasting about a day and a half. That's not heavy use, but it still lasts. It also really does charge fully in about half an hour with the included charger.

There's no microSD, but the internal storage is pretty big, and there's pretty much no bloatware.

</comment><comment><USER24> Hm, interesting thing is, i got a Galaxy Note, and it lasts for a week on one charge after all the software garbage was removed.

Battery life might be more of a question of software than hardware these days, so getting familiar with Android hacking would the best bet - there is no such thing as "irremovable" bloat.

</comment><comment><USER25> Moto Z Play. 3600mAh battery, lasts even heavy use for 36hr+. Also has quick charge so charges really quickly.

</comment><comment><USER26> Among the iPhones, the SE has a very usable battery capacity.

<comment><USER27> Yup. Mine regularly makes it home at the end of the day with >70% left. Rarely have to charge it other than overnight.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Anything supported by ZeroLemon, Hyperion or similar extended battery brand.

I'm still carrying a Galaxy S3 because of it. Lasts 3-6 days depending on use. Only phone that has caught my eye since then is the V20, my only problem being that it's humongous and the extended battery makes it thicker.

</comment><comment><USER29> The problem is current Android OS allows app to creep in and stays in the background doing all sort crazy things.

This is a key reason Apple sells. Google's new Android One (or whatever its called) is aimed to change just that. Until then, your hope of an energy efficient Android phone is next to none.

At current stage of mobile technology, mobile OS needs to be resourceful, power efficient which must be a higher priority than any fancy features demanded by consumer. Android community in their urge of competing for market share, has pushed it too far to the extent Apple has to be careful not fall far behind on the features, yet who lost in this race? You.

<comment><USER30> > This is a key reason Apple sells.

I doubt it. Not once have I heard of people buying iPhones due to the battery[-difference with Android phones].

In fact, I regularly see people killing their apps on iPhones because they think they are running in the background. Something they (usually) doesn't do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> The Sony Xperia line, especially the Compact models, is known for good battery life. My wife and I routinely get 48 hours on a charge on the Z3 Compact and X Compact models and that's without disabling any features such as Bluetooth or GPS, etc.

As for the bloatware, that could be the fault of your carrier rather than Samsung. Android has a "Disable" option in the App Info dialogue that allowed me to disable almost all the pre-installed apps on my phone. Those apps are effectively removed in that they're not running or available in the app drawer. They still exist on disk, but that's a relatively minor burden.

<comment><USER32> Same for me with my S3 compact. Battery can last 48 hours, sometimes more.

I kept Wifi and NFC on, but I disabled useless notifications and email sync (When I want to check my email, I go into the app + I get a text from my provider when selected contacts send an email).

I also disabled useless crapware

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> A few people here have said the Moto Z Play. If you're in EU / CAN, the Moto X Play is (was?) available, which has even better battery life... and no bloatware to boot.

However, you forfeit a gyroscope, so no VR with this one.

</comment><comment><USER34> I use a Huawei G7 for exactly this reason. It will always last two days, and treated gently, will go to three. I think the key is a large'ish battery, and relatively low resolution display.

</comment><comment><USER35> Samsung is all hype!

I have a Sony Xperia Compact Z3. It's not the latest model anymore, but I get around 3 to 4 1/2 days with light to medium use and up to 10 1/2 days (record) in pure stand-by.

<comment><USER36> I have the same phone, but battery life has significantly dropped in the past 6 months. What version of Android are you running on yours?

<comment><USER35> Sorry for late reply. I am on Android 5, which still has Sony Stamina.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Maybe you should consider buying a good battery pack instead. That would free you to consider phones' other merits.

<comment><USER38> Keeping a battery pack charged is useful when you forget charging it, but it really shouldn't be something that you are required to use on a regular basis just to make it last throughout the day.

It makes little sense to make a phone as thin as possible and then expecting you to carry an additional cable and battery pack, it's just bad design IMHO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I'm quite happy with my Moto G4 plus, it lasts me easily a couple of days, with a light/medium usage.

</comment><comment><USER39> Moto Z Play. Makes my Note 4 looks silly wrt battery life. Plus, you can shove a $60 battery moto mod on there for more battery. I get 7-8 hours screen on time from the stock battery though.

I bought mine outright from best Buy for $449, I believe they are $400 now.

As a bonus, you get very little cruft, very clean Android.

</comment><comment><USER40> My Moto Razr Maxx is a bit on the large side, and it's no longer state of the art, but it does pretty well for battery life. Even with wifi and mobile data and GPS and bluetooth all turned on, and in active use, it will still last a day and a half. That's not as long as I'd like, but it's better than the barely-a-day that I get with my work-issued Samsung G6 used more lightly with only one of wifi or mobile data turned on at a time (both on concurrently will cut that by half because Samsung royally FUBARed the radio design). You can probably find a reconditioned one for low $$$ and it's a decent choice.

</comment><comment><USER41> Nokia 3210. Battery charge lasts a week or two.

<comment><USER38> "What SMARTPHONE would you recommend".

The 3210 it's a fantastic phone, that you would definitely be able to keep using if all you want is voice calls and SMS, but by no stretch of imagination could be classified as a smartphone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I'm using a Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 Pro. I have to recharge my phone every 2-3 days. Although I turn the internet off overnight and I barely use my phone (other than stuff like whatsapp and FB messenger being constantly on).

</comment><comment><USER43> My current new iPhone SE is pretty good, as smartphones go - until the recent release of the 7, it had the longest battery life of any Apple phone, and still hangs right with it.

I really miss my old Palm Treo 755P, though - it ran a solid three days or more on a charge. I didn't even pack the charger unless I was gone longer than that. (It also had better contact and calendar capabilities than any modern smartphone/app combo I'm aware of...)

Sadly, smartphone mfrs don't think battery life is important (partly b/c they're expensive), so we keep getting the minimum they can get away with.

<comment><USER43> BTW, my iPhone battery life is much longer than many of my friends, and the only substantial difference is that I have every part of iCloud disabled. (Well, that, and I don't do Facebook...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I've had good luck with my Pixel XL. I basically only charge it on my commute (half hour each way). Usage details: lots of screen on time, but not a lot of data usage (mostly ebooks and saved podcasts/music).

</comment><comment><USER45> Friend solved her power issues with a Samsung S6 (not Edge) by purchasing a battery case. One of the good ones -- support-wise, at least; her case happened to go wanky, and their lifetime warranty replaced it. Don't remember the name of it: Mo... something or other?

She's on her phone all the time -- the cause of her needing more juice.

I looked for such a case for my Nexus 5x; none to be had. A consideration, the next time I buy a new phone. Wonder whether, with its attempt to be more mainstream, there are such battery cases for the Pixel (and upcoming Pixel2).

</comment><comment><USER46> I have a Xiaomi Redmi Note 4. I usually get 2 days off a single charge unless I use it very heavily. It's also a budget priced phone, even though it has impressive specs. Can recommend!

<comment><USER17> Just two days? I'd have expected more from the 4100 mAh battery. My dad's 5S lasts more than that, and it's got a 3000ish battery. Of course, he only uses it for calling, so YMMV.

<comment><USER47> The 5S has a 4" screen, the Redmi has a 5.5" screen. That's almost double the screen area, which needs more power. Plus it has an higher DPI.

<comment><USER17> It has a 5.15" screen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I have the LG G5 and love the ability to swap batteries when necessary. As an illustrative example, it proved invaluable during the Pokemon GO craze where I could swap batteries on the go, without the need for a charger...

I also have a 200GB microSD card in it that has not worked much (storing photos I take with the phone's camera) since I bought it. I'm not sure why but it does work with files already on it.

You could always buy more batteries and charging cradles so that when you're on the go, you won't run out.

</comment><comment><USER49> iPhone 6s lasts me all day. Charged overnight, 5am (100%) - 10pm (30%) at weekends I don't charge overnight.

Its always in battery saving mode I don't need any background processes. Only whatsapp, emails, slack and sms notifications. wifi only on when at home. Bluetooth only on during commute (about 4/5hrs a day).

I've had it a year, it used to do two days but I relented and enabled email notifications.

</comment><comment><USER50> If you want to use Android, pick a brand that at least lets you freeze the bloatware. I use a Sony Z5C at the moment and I'm tolerably happy. I keep WLAN/GPS/Bluetooth on and charge it when I need to. I charged it yesterday sometime during the day and it was at 77% this morning.

The key on Android: Go into settings right away. Freeze apps. Freeze more apps.

</comment><comment><USER51> I'm on the same Samsung boat, have an S5 mini (3 years now) and want to move away from it.

Battery-wise, the "best" one I've found is the Lenovo P2 which has 5100mAh (S8 Plus has 3500) but not sure if its hardware is any good. I'm planning however to get OnePlus 3t which has 3400mAh and seems like a better long-term choice.

</comment><comment><USER52> Sounds like you'd prefer an Android device, I've seen great numbers from Moto there and they tend to have relatively stock Android builds compared to Samsung Touch-Wiz. Otherwise it's hard to go wrong with an iPhone, especially the 6/6s/7 Plus in most any regard.

</comment><comment><USER53> Xiaomi is the brand you're looking for. They don't have removable battery though.

I don't understand why brands (except some chinese brands like Xiaomi) continue to make phones slimmer instead of adding a bigger battery. Does it sell better ?

</comment><comment><USER54> ASUS ZenFone models are pretty solid, I own ZC550KL with 5000 mAh (sic!) battery and it works like a charm, up to 3-4 days without plugging.

But beware: speaker on my model sucks donkey balls, sometimes I can't even hear a call from my pocket.

</comment><comment><USER55> It's a little old now but the Motorola Droid Turbo has served me well. Even though the phone is over three years old it holds a charge for the entire day (17 hours) and still has a 30-35% remaining at the end of the day.

</comment><comment><USER56> OnePlus 3T.

<comment><USER57> This phone is amazing with battery life! First phone I can use two days without charging overnight

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Nexus 6 owner, with the wifi, the Bluetooth, and the high precision GPS always enabled I usually last from 8am to midnight without charge. I mostly use it to browse Reddit and HN, text + phone calls and music.

</comment><comment><USER59> Buy a phone with a removable battery. LG G5 has a great camera, a removable battery, and an SD card slot. The G6 just came out, so prices should be low.

Not caring about your battery life is wonderful. Just pop in a new one.

</comment><comment><USER60> I have previously had a great experience with the LG G3. Its battery would last me at least 2 days with basic use and definitely an entire day even with quite considerable use.

I have no idea what the G5 or G6 will be like.

</comment><comment><USER61> Lenovo P780. Calls/messaging/occasional games and cartoons for kids - lasts 14 days even after 3 years of use. As far as I can see the battery occupies about 80% of it's internal volume :)

</comment><comment><USER62> The answer to this question is really dependant on your usage pattern. One person might get a day of battery from one device, while the same phone will give you 3/4 of a day.

<comment><USER63> I normally come home from a day of work with my battery in the 60-70% range. I take it off the charger at 6:30am and arrive home by 5:30pm, so 11 hours.

If I'm busy and working, and not playing around on my phone, I might have 80% off. I have a couple phone calls and am using my phone a lot for email in meetings, etc, I might be down to 40%.

The other big factor is where I sit in the building. If I'm in another part of the building with worse reception, I'll be 20% lower than usual.

I have a charger at my desk but I only use it if I forget to charge the night before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> For the type of usage you mentioned, a Windows Phone is a good fit. They are pretty well known for their performance and battery life even on low-end phones.

</comment><comment><USER65> I have a oneplus 3 which lasts for more than 24 hours of moderate use. Plus it charges very quickly, and that's a huge plus. I suggest you go for the 3T

</comment><comment><USER66> i would recommend the xiaomi3, 5000mph battery make it one of the best, very happy with it

</comment><comment><USER67> Check out the lenovo phone, it has by far the biggest battery and would last 3 days.

</comment><comment><USER67> checkout the lenovo phone, it has a big battery that should last 3 to 4 days

</comment><comment><USER68> iPhone SE, if you are ok with smaller screen. Got one from work and it's perfect for me -- small, battery lasts more than a day.

</comment><comment><USER69> LG V20. Lasts me a day and a half without fail.

</comment><comment><USER70> I always carry an Anker battery pack with me so I don't care about how good the battery life on a particular smartphone is.

</comment><comment><USER71> read some reviews on ulefone power 2, it might be enough of an android, and has 6Ah battery

</comment><comment><USER10> One Plus 3T or the SE.

</comment><comment><USER72> iPhone is the best. I've heard Pixel is also decent.

</comment><comment><USER73> iPhone, hands down. Nothing comes close in my opinion.

</comment><comment><USER74> I recommend going backwards one generation, to the Samsung Galaxy S5. This is the phone I have, and I love it. The battery life is fantastic: I can easily go two full days on a single charge. I'm still using the OEM firmware too (Sprint version), which does have its share of bloat, but I have a bunch of the built-in bloat disabled. If you haven't done that yet, you need to.

Moreover, if my battery does die early because I was doing too much with it, I have a spare battery in my backpack I got on Ebay for less than $10. I can easily pop that in and have a full charge again, without messing with some stupid USB-attached battery pack.

On top of that, the S5 has two other very important features that the S6 lacks: a microSD card slot, and being water-resistant (IP67 I think).

The S6 was a massive step backwards. Why on earth did you even buy it, when the previous generation was so obviously superior in every way?

Anyway, my recommendations in a nutshell: buy a Sprint S5 on Ebay for $100-150, and sign up for service with Ting or another Sprint MVNO.</comment>


Show HN: Online invoice Free forever - <AUTHOR> http://freeinvoice.in

<comment><USER2> No space for postal/zip code. May want to take out the discount column or allow it to be removed; If I'm not giving a discount, I may not want the customer to see that.

I like that you can either add a new row below an existing row or at the bottom.</comment>