"DRM is Used to Lock in, Control and Spy on Users" - <AUTHOR> https://torrentfreak.com/drm-is-used-to-lock-in-control-and-spy-on-users-161108/ <comment><USER2> Interestingly copyright industry has grown to be one of the greatest enemies of the democracy and freedom of speech.

I think that the shame is shared though as too many people started to disrespect the right of the authors to get a fair share for their work.

It still does not follow that we should prefer rights of the authors over more general civil rights.

If the choice is between authors not getting paid and freedom of expression, or any other more important right, we should choose the last.

<comment><USER3> >>disrespect the right of the authors to get a fair share for their work.

Because there is no right or "fair share".

Creators have only the right to ask for money for their works, they have no right to compensation at all.

Further from an American Legal perspective there is no "choice is between authors not getting paid and freedom of expression" the constitutional reason for copyright, patent and trademark is to promote free expression. That is the sole reason the government was empowered to create copyright law in the first place. to the extent that copyright becomes detrimental to free expression it becomes unconstitutional

Copyright does not exist to protect the profitability of Disney no matter how much their lobbyist believe that it does

<comment><AUTHOR> Have there been any challenges to copyright on constitutional grounds?

If not, at what point might that happen?

<comment><USER4> Copyright and patents are written into the US Constitution. The wording allows congress to pass laws granting for a limited time exclusive access to their creators. The Supreme Court of the US has held that congress can declare any duration as limited as long as it is not literally forever. There is nothing unconstitutional about copyright law.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Indeed it is. But somehow the push to reform DMCA and repeal 1201 isn't strong enough. Why would anyone sensible (besides corrupted control freaks who designed that) not stand against this garbage?

<comment><USER6> I think their argument would be stronger if DRM opponents were more specific when talking about harms.

For example, DRM is used to spy on users. The article notes that DRM'd software can maintain a connection with a server and user actions are reported and recorded on the server. They need to go one step further and explain why this is bad and list some of the real damage that has caused.

If they don't, it sounds more hypothetical and people just aren't going to get all that bothered by it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> So many legal lawyers here.

If the numerical representation of content can be arbitrarily shifted via encoding, encryption, or masking, how can anything be copyrightable?

DRM itself encrypts and morphs the numerical representation, thus obscuring its precise identification.

<comment><USER8> The numerical representation of the content is not what's in question. It's the user-perceived content.

Let's say you take the contents of a book, add an extra space between some words, then compress/hash the new contents. The numerical representation could be completely different, but the user-perceived content is the same.

Sorry to get all legally lawful on over your ass, but the law of the land (and common sense) dictates that the new contents are still the works of the original author even though the numerical representation is completely different.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Can't argue with my friend. "If DRM then Warez".</comment>


The history of the web, delivered each week - <AUTHOR> http://thehistoryoftheweb.com/ <comment><USER2> I've been a recipient of this newsletter for a little while and really enjoy it!

How have you been deciding what to write about each week?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for being a loyal subscriber!

I have a rough outline of the web's history kind of mapped out from a couple of years of loose research. I usually pick a general topic and just dive in. Pretty quickly, a topic reveals itself and I just follow a thread until I have a story. Don't know if I'll be able to keep this up forever, but for now, there's plenty of connections to make.</comment></comment>


PHPUnit 4.0 Released - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/sebastianbergmann/phpunit/wiki/Release-Announcement-for-PHPUnit-4.0.0 <comment><USER2> This is pretty exciting for me. At least, it would be (it seems like a drop in replacement, as the backwards compat breaking changes are really rarely used in production IME) -- except I've moved to _`nette /tester'_ [0][1]. It's much much lighter (in features as well as run-time) but the trade-off is a seriously nice API, that includes even a nice DOM tester for integration work.

The HHVM support is most exciting for myself. I've moved production websites and personal projects all over to nginx + HHVM, and I've not run into any issues since the end of last year.

Now, all I want is Facebook's "Hack" language to be formally documented. My personal tests show that the optional gradual H-M typing + HHVM's speed + PHP's benefits === Awesome. PHP has come a long way in the past few years.

[0] [http://tester.nette.org/](http://tester.nette.org/) [1] [https://github.com/nette/tester](https://github.com/nette/tester)

<comment><USER3> The best introduction about Facebook's "Hack" language I found:

Part 1: [http://www.sitepoint.com/hhvm-hack- part-1/](http://www.sitepoint.com/hhvm-hack-part-1/)

Part 2: [http://www.sitepoint.com/look-hack-php-replacement- hhvm/](http://www.sitepoint.com/look-hack-php-replacement-hhvm/)

Would be great if Facebook would publish more official information.

<comment><USER4> I went to an SFPHP meetup the other day. Sounds like it's coming very soon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My litmus test about a package is can I reduce it to one line of code, for 80% of the benefits. If yes, it's useless.

assert($condition);

It's useless.

<comment><USER6> Great, now when a test fails, your resources are left in an inconsistent state. How do you deal with that?

<comment><USER5> Good question. This won't happen. You know why? Whether a test fails, or succeeds, the PHP request is over.

What happened to all those people proud of PHP's principles? "Shared nothing", remember? Why on earth would your tests _share_ resources and state? This is not Java. It's PHP.

Look at PHP's own tests: PHPT files. They're simple files containing code to setup a test, and the result of a test.

How tests run, well, in a nutshell:

foreach (glob('/tests/*' as $test)) exec('php ' . $test);

Then you check the logs. You can have your little pretty log formatted if you want, but it's not that important:

\- If there's stuff in the log, your test failed, you go check why.

\- If there's no stuff in the log, you're good to go.

It can catch output, exceptions, even fatal errors. Can PHPUnit catch fatal errors? You need to use its "process isolation features", which is just reinventing the wheel by doing... what I just did in that one-liner above. Well I did it! Process isolation! And I didn't need PHPUnit to do it.

A lot of those "modern PHP" libraries are basically a masochistic exercise in copying designs that make sense in Java into PHP where they make no sense.

PHPT style tests wouldn't make sense in Java. And Java style Unit test frameworks make no sense in PHP.

However all those blindly supporting this, can please continue to waste their time, for the benefit of making sure they're buzzword compliant & in sync with groupthink.

"I write my mocks and fixtures in PHPUnit. Oh yeah it has all the latest assertions, like you can assert XML using CSS selectors". I can almost hear the collective taps on my back just saying this out loud.

<comment><USER7> > Look at PHP's own tests: PHPT files. They're simple files containing code to > setup a test, and the result of a test.

> How tests run, well, in a nutshell:

> foreach (glob('/tests/*' as $test)) exec('php ' . $test);

This fails your own litmus test. The PHPT runner that ships with PHP is actually thousands of lines long: [https://github.com/php/php- src/blob/7b7d2952a606fba6a5e21998...](https://github.com/php/php- src/blob/7b7d2952a606fba6a5e219986a7675411cc4ba42/run-tests.php)

Keep in mind that PHPT files have to be parsed in userland. The runner has to pull out the --TEST-- section from each file, write it to a temp file and then execute the temp file in a separate PHP process. It's actually an incredibly slow way to test your code. I have test suites where thousands of PHPUnit tests execute an order of magnitude faster than dozens of PHPT files.

> "Oh yeah it has all the latest assertions, like you can assert XML using CSS > selectors".

The value of PHPUnit isn't really the assertions. It's true that most of the assertions can be replaced with a single line of code. The main exception is assertEquals which requires some special consideration for recursive objects, canonicalization, floating points, etc.

The biggest selling point for my team is the ecosystem. PHPUnit integrates with a number of IDEs, continuous integration platforms, ticketing systems, profiling tools, code coverage tools, code quality tools, etc.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The gamble on Tesla's gigafactory in the Nevada desert - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-gamble-on-teslas-gigafactory-is-a-big-one--in-many-fashions/2015/04/10/50e9de40-d4c8-11e4-a62f-ee745911a4ff_story.html

<comment><USER2> One issue with the article is that doesn't distinguish between the statistics for Nevada as a whole, which are totally dominated by Las Vegas's size, and northern Nevada, which has a different economic makeup than sin city.

As a recent transplant to Reno I've been very happy with how livable the area is. The University of Nevada -Reno is a solid research university, the town has a palpable belief in itself these days, the proximity to Tahoe makes all sorts of luxuries available, and the economy is both more diverse and better educated than this article indicates (again, Reno != Vegas.) The Tesla deal certainly seems to have spurred conversations that weren't happening a year ago, and I've personally been getting a number of headhunters calling me for local software development work in the last couple of months, which was a pleasant surprise, I was worried I had put a giant railroad spike in my career by moving.

The political leadership in Reno and Northern Nevada have been playing a long game for a while to diversify and expand the economy. I considered it very serendipitous to find out how successful they've been since I moved here.

<comment><USER3> I lived in Reno for a couple of years in the late '90s, working for what I believe to have been the only software company in the city at the time (MountainGate, later acquired by ADIC). It was clear even then that the city government was trying to develop Reno into something more like a California- style tech hub, but they hadn't gotten very far. It was a lonely place to live, for a young techie, though I have fond memories of all the long weekends I spent jeeping around in the desert. I would never consider moving back, but I'm glad the place has stuck to its path and started getting somewhere with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I still can't see how that place can profitably employ 6,500 people. That's a huge head count for a US industrial plant. As I pointed out yesterday, the largest auto assembly plant in the US, Ford's at Kansas City, has 3700 employees. The Leaf battery plant has about 250. Modern manufacturing plants which crank out identical products in high volume don't need many people. 6500 employees is the kind of number you'd get if you looked at a non-automated battery pack plant in China.

Low-end battery plants in China usually have cells manufactured in automated facilities (often in Japan) which are then assembled by hand into battery packs. That may be Tesla's plan. Cell manufacturing in the Reno plant will be done by Panasonic Energy Corporation of North America. They're hiring.[2] Panasonic writes: _" Panasonic Corporation will cooperate with Tesla Motors, Inc. to construct a large-scale advanced battery manufacturing facility known as the Gigafactory in the state of Nevada. Panasonic's role in the Gigafactory will be to manufacture and supply cylindrical lithium-ion cells and invest in the associated equipment, machinery, and other manufacturing tools based on the battery demand from Tesla. Tesla will take the cells and other components to assemble battery modules and packs."_

So it looks like the factory will make round Panasonic cells a lot like the current Ncr18650 ones[3], using Panasonic technology and employees, which will then be hand-assembled into packs by Tesla employees. That's essentially what they're doing now. Unclear why this will reduce cost per unit.

[1] [http://www.industry.siemens.com/topics/global/en/battery- man...](http://www.industry.siemens.com/topics/global/en/battery- manufacturing/process/pages/default.aspx) [2] [http://panasonic.taleo.net/careersection/external/jobdetail....](http://panasonic.taleo.net/careersection/external/jobdetail.ftl?job=1403648&src=JB-10200) [3] [http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Ncr18650a-3100mAh- Rechargeab...](http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Ncr18650a-3100mAh-Rechargeable- panasonic/dp/B00AHS5EH4)

<comment><USER5> The Gigafactory is intended to end up producing as many batteries as the rest of the world does, when it was announced. That's what "economy of scale" means. It's fair to say that no one knows what cost savings that might produce, but it's silly to say that you can't see how that might possibly have cost savings.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Bizarre article. The California border is waaay closer than they stated, and although it's possible for a long term worker to live in SF and commute weekly, that would be the worst of both worlds; obscene living costs + a huge commute.

The 49% they state won't be Californians, they'll be people from all around the country who agree to move to Reno. For the purposes of the Nevadan economy, this is a win-win (although it might not be as good for education, but that's what the education requirements are for).

</comment><comment><USER7> "The company sold an estimated 18,750 of its Model S roadsters in 2014, at a sticker price of about $70,000."

18,750? How about more like ~33,000? And "roadsters?" Really?

Used to be the Washington Post had reliable reporters. Now it's just another blog.

<comment><USER8> And 56,782 worldwide as of Dec 2014, almost 4B USD. Musk claiming a 25% margin so ~1B.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Sales_and_markets](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Sales_and_markets) [http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-gross-profit-rate-of-Tesla- Mo...](http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-gross-profit-rate-of-Tesla-Model-S)

<comment><USER8> Hmm some say that Tesla sells at loss [http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/12/investing/tesla-apple- elon-m...](http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/12/investing/tesla-apple-elon-musk/)

<comment><USER5> The 25% margin mentioned in the parent is a gross margin. I don't think anyone has ever said that Tesla's gross margin is negative. These terms mean something specific.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Is the work-life balance working for a facility like this as bad as it is for the more design-oriented engineering at Tesla?

<comment><USER10> Having people work over 40 hours a week is actively disincentivized by at least two things: the workers aren't in an overtime-exempt field where extra hours are free for the employer, and they're getting tax incentives for creating new jobs, which rewards hiring more people to work fewer hours each.</comment></comment>


The "moneyball" strategy is the future for venture capital firms - <AUTHOR> http://venturevillage.eu/vc-moneyball?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Venturevillage+%28VentureVillage%29 <comment><USER2> The article doesn't contain much information on what this "moneyball" actually is.

[Also, the author might like to know that saving powerpoint files as png files (i.e. "save as" then select .png from pull-down), rather than taking screenshots gives a more readable result.]

<comment><USER3> The core moneyball idea, for me at least, was identifying an undervalued potentially winning strategy with the help of data and then using data to identify players to best cary out that strategy. Interestingly, in baseball, the A's are back to a homerun hitting strategy because moneyball caused their original strategy of getting on base to become overvalued, leaving other market opportunities. So avoiding homeruns wasn't really the core idea. And it should be noted the As have never won with this strategy. They won with steroid taking supermen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "Data driven selection model" sounds nice and all, but it is hard to quantify something as abstract as an early stage start-up. Many companies are barely more than a couple of guys and an idea...

Compared to Warren Buffett that mostly invests on stocks, something that can easily be broken down to mere numbers.

</comment><comment><USER5> Every little bit helps, especially when talking about something as abstract. Besides, most investors do try to get as much data on the team background, market, etc in their decision process.

Of course, i don't expect software algo's to choose startups for investment (like they mostly do with stocks) any time soon.</comment>


Make Mark Zuckerberg Testify - <AUTHOR> https://theintercept.com/2017/09/11/make-mark-zuckerberg-testify/ <comment><USER2> What exactly is the crime that Facebook committed? Why should Zuck testify?

Sensationalist BS

<comment><USER3> Oh please. Social media was exploited and abused like never before during this election cycle. All the major social networks have become a breeding ground for extremism, geopolitical propaganda, and misinformation. The public has every right to know what role the operators of these platforms served, and what actions - if any - they took. How much did they know about it and when? Did they fight to maintain the integrity of their networks or were they complicit? Or did they simply turn a blind eye to protect their inflated user numbers and rip off the advertisers who use their platforms?

Nobody is accusing Zuckerburg of a crime, but his company has hardly been transparent or forthcoming about this either. The public deserves an explanation, not only from him, but the folks at Twitter and Reddit as well.

<comment><USER2> Where is the public deriving it's said entitlement from? Morals? Ethics? or laws?

There's no legal obligation on FB to shed light on anything that's completely legal. I'm assuming you're citing ethics. If FB is capable of making YOU the product, you think they care about how their advertising dollars come? As long as they're legal

<comment><USER4> Yes, because nothing bad has ever happened from following the codes laid out by your friendly neighboorhood government.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The US funds political activism in countries including western allies constantly and does much worse in less friendly regimes.

Russia interfering with US elections is a problem for the US but it's a given fact since the dawn of diplomacy and geopolitics.

21 years ago this was on the cover of Time: [http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19960715,00.html](http://content.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19960715,00.html)

Now everyone is mad because Trump doesn't seem to fit the general agenda of the centrist and left leaning media.

I don't like Trump either but bitching about Russia is hypercritical and also pointless.

If the climate wasn't right Russia wouldn't been able to get Trump 1000 extra votes. Maybe we should look to how we got to a place where polarizing populist candidates without even the slightest shred of credibility are electable in the first place.

</comment><comment><USER6> Well, testifying would put a big hitch in his political career I bet.

<comment><USER7> Good! Can we not have a near perfect crop of complete losers next time? No one wants Zuck anymore than Hillary. Seems like a good way to lock in 4 more years of regret.

<comment><USER8> /me raises hand that I'd rather have Mark than Hillary. It's not so much that I agree with everything he says or stands for and I most certainly appreciate but don't idolize him. I'd rather have nearly any tech-savvy outsider than at least half the major party primary candidates last year.

<comment><USER9> I'd prefer someone less complicit in establishing the surveillance state.

<comment><USER8> Less complicit than Mark is what I assume you mean, though it was ambiguous in my mind whether you meant "than either of those two".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The United States has been disrupting, corrupting, and in some cases, overthrowing elections for decades. Now all of a sudden another country as the audacity to screw with our elections and suddenly everyone is shocked! So much hypocrisy. If you want to really see how an election can be corrupted, and thrown, just wait to Zuckerberg runs for President.

</comment><comment><USER11> It's funny how $100k of pro-Trump facebook ads by a foreign entity is a crime against humanity.

But like Obama actively campaigning for politicians in other countries [0] or the US getting involved in god knows how many other elections is like totally... meh.

[0] [http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention- foreign-...](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign- elections-20161213-story.html)

<comment><USER12> > But like Obama actively campaigning for politicians in other countries

The source you quoted shows nothing about 'Obama actively campaigning for politicians in other countries'. In fact it exonerates him of your charges.

The most recent US interference in a foreign election (quoted in your source) was in 2000, when Dubya was President. You could arguable attribute that to Bill Clinton, since the groundwork would have to have been laid earlier than 2000.

> In 2000, the U.S. spent millions of dollars in aid for political parties, > campaign costs and independent media. Funding and broadcast equipment > provided to the media arms of the opposition were a decisive factor in > electing opposition candidate Vojislav Kostunica as Yugoslav president, > according to Levin. "If it wouldn't have been for overt intervention … > Milosevic would have been very likely to have won another term," he said.

Obama would come to power a full 2 terms later.

<comment><USER11> Here are six examples of Obama outwardly interfering in foreign elections.

[https://spectator.org/obamas-meddling-in-foreign- elections-s...](https://spectator.org/obamas-meddling-in-foreign-elections- six-examples/)

<comment><USER13> Politifact debunks example #1. Can't be bothered to research the others but I'm skeptical [http://www.politifact.com/truth-o- meter/statements/2008/aug/...](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o- meter/statements/2008/aug/20/jerome-corsi/obama-did-not-take-sides-in-kenya/)

<comment><USER11> Yeah because Politifact is a totally unbiased trustworthy source....

<comment><USER14> All sources have some level of bias. can you demonstrate that Politifact's bias compromises them in this context?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Nexus 5: does it really run stock Android? - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/388150/nexus-5-does-it-really-run-stock-android

<comment><USER2> Who said it did?

Nexus phones have always had different or at least earlier features than aosp afaik. Further, what is "stock" if not the nexus version? IMO nexus is stock, as it defines what stock is. You could argue aosp is stock but then no manufacturers run stock aosp. Nexus is probably the closest thing you'll find.

Nexus have also traditionally had more of an integrated experience with google, I assumed carriers / manufacturers ripped that out in favour of their own futile attempts.</comment>


Rackspace files an IPO, setting price by auction - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/04/26/update-rackspace-files-ipo-will-set-price-via-auction/ Rackspace, the large managed hosting company, has filed an IPO eight years after their original (and retracted) IPO in 2000. Like Google, they are setting their price by auction. <comment><USER3> So I'm looking around Rackspace's webpage (a little pokey, btw) to check out the prices. I don't see any. Now, as a rational person, I have two thoughts:

1\. Well, there are a 1000 other hosting companies that aren't a pain-in-the- ass starting at step #1 (looking for prices), and

2\. They are obviously ashamed of their prices anyway.

...which means that I'm going to look elsewhere.

But a quick google search shows that their dedicated servers are $500/month and up. Pure insanity. But, you know, they have "Fanatical support". What is that, anyway? What I want from my hosting company is, you know, a minimum of hardware failures. I'm not sure what support you could have besides that. Backups? Backups are pure monkey work. I value it at minimum wage.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, if they're gunning for an IPO, you know they have quality hosting. They've been around for a while, survived the 2001 bubble, and they host 37signals and a ton of other websites.

I won't be a walking ad for them, but they reportedly have some kind of management structure that lets them handle support well. _shrug_

<comment><USER4> Maybe they are just trying to cash out. With cloud computing entering mainstream, and Amazon, Microsoft, Google and probably Sun start investing a lot of money, the space will be very competitive and capital intensive.

I don't think it will be a great stock to have. The margins will only keep shrinking.

<comment><USER5> It's amusing that you believe that a top five (probably #2) hosting provider that has had a competent cloud computing initiative for years (Mosso) is threatened by cloud computing entering the mainstream. I'm not saying hosting isn't going to get more competitive...I know that it is. But RackSpace has always managed to be among the fastest growing, most reliable, and highest margin, hosting providers in the industry.

I think you underestimate the growth that will continue to happen in hosting for the foreseeable future, and the strength of RackSpace in that industry. Most of our customers (who are hosting providers) view RackSpace as a very serious competitor to be taken seriously on nearly every front. And I'm not saying nice things about RackSpace just because we'd like to sell them some software. They really have built an impressive business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> patrickg-zill (from another board, this was posted by me about a year or so ago there)

(disclaimer: my company offers colocation, but I also do syadmin work for customers that use a specific web application server that I am expert at setting up)

My experience with RS stems from a customer that felt he needed very high burst bandwidth availability, and proceeded to get a Cisco firewall, 2 Opteron servers and a certain amount of transfer from them.

The time period was from about October or November 2005 thru to now, he is still a customer

Good points: a) they have a decent trouble-ticketing system b) they have Cisco guys and Linux guys on-staff c) they have monitoring in place d) you can call them up

Bad points a) bad HW: one of the Opteron servers kept rebooting under load. It would work fine until we unzipped some multi-GB files. It took RS a few days to get in the parts to replace it, and obviously, they did not do heavy-duty testing of the system before it went into production - I feel like 15 minutes with memtest86 would have caught it

b) bad HW: a drive failed, became read-only somehow, they rebooted, fsck'ed it and said it needed to be replaced, of course. problem: they wanted to charge extra to image or transfer all the data from the old drive to the new drive.

My take: they should do it for free, it is part of hardware maintenance - <USER2> wanted to leave it mounted as the secondary and then we were to move it over; alternatively, they could have offered to back it all up for us to the network backup, but they didn't.

c) lock-in pricing practices: they want to charge A LOT of money when you want to upgrade some hardware. They figure it is easier for you to spend more, than to change all your IPs and switch to some other provider

d) revenue enhancement: they want to sell you other services and push you to buy them. Any problem other than a basic one, is an excuse for them to suggest either a hardware upgrade or something else they will sell you.

e) if it ain't LAMP (linux/apache/mysql/php), the techs will not have much of a clue. Part of the service I set up involved a different web server running on port 80 (needed for the web app server I mention), not Apache. The tech wasn't paying attention and reset things to use Apache.

These are all just my opinions, your mileage may vary , etc.

</comment><comment><USER6> I know back when I worked at sconex.com we hosted are application at rackspace with our images at serverbeach. I'm not sure about prices but I know our CEO would not have let them rip us off. And for the most part we seem to have fairly good customer service.

Though I'm just the user interface designer so take that as you will.

</comment><comment><USER7> (Future == Cloud computing) ? True</comment>


VP of Engineering - "best of the best" = no more than 12 years experience? - <AUTHOR> http://www.jobscore.com/jobs/500friendsinc/vp-of-engineering/cWzS0cMM0r4OrNeJe4egig?detail=HackerNews&remail=&rfirst=&rlast=&sid=161 <comment><USER2> This is going to probably bite me in the ass because I'm looking for work at the moment and occasionally apply to interesting YC companies but since this has come up, I'm going to share my story here because of the negative experience I had with the company in question.

I had a phone screen with 500friends recently. They were late calling me, and the person I was scheduled to talk with wasn't even on the call. They had pulled some poor engineer off of whatever he was doing, shoved my resume in front of him, and said "go".

The list of things that our "interview" contained:

        1) Late in calling me at our scheduled time.
        2) Scheduled person was not present on our interview call.
        3) Engineer that was put on the call was ill-prepared for the conversation.
        4) Questions asked of me were a combination of very basic and others being completely unrelated to the nature of the position being interviewed for.
        5) The scheduled person appeared at the end of the call barely long enough to say his name before hanging up on me.
        6) Hung up on me suddenly.

#6 was what really got me. It was literally, "Hi this is <x>, we're out of time, click."

If you advertise a position as requiring a certain set of skills, then ask prospective employees about those skills! Go through their experiences and see if they're a good engineer outside of the narrow scope of "solves logic puzzles well". You might be surprised that someone who doesn't normally write linked lists in javascript or implement 2500 year old prime-solving algorithms on a weekly basis actually has skills and experience to contribute.

My personal recommendation for anyone considering 500friends is to skip over them. There's much better companies more deserving of your time and consideration, and you'll certainly be treated better.

## Just to add on, I don't have a problem with logic problems. But too many people _only_ ask them and don't do real interviews. Yes, I can do linked lists in javascript. Does that tell you anything useful about what kind of engineer I am? No, it doesn't.

<comment><USER3> Not to excuse that sort of behavior, but this is a pretty typical HR experience in the Bay Area. Late calls, no-shows, awkward questions, either too easy or too hard, abrupt endings, obviously haven't read the resume, etc. Happens all the time, unfortunately.

<comment> brown9-2 The good news for the candidate is this type of behavior is a great leading indicator of what working for the company will be like.

<comment> __--__ Is it, though? Every company in the Bay Area I've ever worked for (and a few that weren't in the bay area) has hit multiple items on the parent's list. Even the ones who have their shit together and were a blast to work at gave horrible interviews.

Interviews are hard.

<comment><USER4> _Even the ones who have their shit together and were a blast to work at gave horrible interviews._

Fundamental attribution error. It was luck that they turned out to be a compatible work situation.

<comment> __--__ Are you saying that my personality is the reason other people can't conduct an interview? I agree I don't interview well, but that has nothing to do with a third party I've never met being able to show up on time.

<comment><USER4> It was not a personal comment. The fundamental attribution error is that it turned out to be a compatible working relationship despite bad interviewing on the company's part. Aside from giving you an interview, nothing the company did during the recruiting process put the right person in the seat. It was just luck that it worked out, and just as often, if not more, it doesn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> One way to interpret this is that the Agile Manifesto was published in 2001, so although it's possible you managed agile teams before 2001 it's unlikely, or if you've been successfully managing agile teams since before the manifesto and you're interested in a startup... what's wrong w/ you (seriously... if you're crushing it w/ agile for 12 years and now enterprises are all scrum- happy and you aren't making boatloads of cash consulting why are you considering a startup... oh, you're a serial startup guy... that's cool then you won't give a shit about some nonsense in a job posting, you'll work your network to get an interview or contact the founders directly and convince them you're worth talking to... and if you can't do that you're probably not VP material. No?)

One way to respond to this kind of job posting is "fuck that, I'm not going to waste my time w/ that shit".

<comment><USER6> Nah... Lightweight processes were discussed as alternatives to waterfall way back in the 90s during my software engineering courses. "Rapid application development" and RAtional unified process were the "hot" lightweight methodologies when I started work in 1996. Scrum has been with us since 1995.

<comment><USER5> Agree, no debate about when you might have managed agile teams... could be you're Ken Schwaber (yeah, had to look up his name), but it then begs the 2nd question I raised... why would you want to do a startup? If you have 12+ years of experience with what is now a very hot process why, why?, WHY? would you want to work at a startup?

A VP role doesn't sound like a C __role. It doesn 't sound like a really big equity play. You're not going to be a founder w/ a big payout (probably). So why do it?

I'm repeating myself. It really doesn't matter at all... someone will apply or they will not and the company will hire the right person or they will not... you and I will go along with our lives just fine.

<comment><USER6> I think you're overestimating how hot of a skill that actually is... But even if you could make "boatloads" of cash consulting, not everyone desires the road warrior lifestyle that goes along with consulting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is totally off topic, and might be considered a rant, but I see this from time-to-time in startup land.

Not understanding titles.

First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes? Perhaps a Sr. Engineer/Team lead? Do the engineers directly report to this "vp of engineering"? What happens when the team gets to big?

Second, you are locking yourself into something prematurely. If you want someone hands on with management experience and capacity to grow into a future leader, state that and start looking. Make your interview quick on the technical assessment, heavy on the social and ask "what would you do in ..." or "how would you handle this ..." type of questions. See if the person has 1. experience 2. common sense or 3. good intuition on process/people.

Lastly, what does the rest of the company look like when the VP of Engineering clearly has an inflated title. Are all the C level/VP level people equally inflated?

Anyway, sorry for the rant. It seems a common occurrence in Startupsville to see people running around with titles that mean nothing for the sake of having the title.

"Oh, cool. I'm the VP of engineering at blah blah".

"nice, what do you do everyday."

"Oh, you know, code reviews".

Whatever.

<comment><USER8> >>First, this is for a "vp of engineering" that is "hands on". Are you really looking for an architect that codes?

Sorry but why can't a VP of engineering be somebody who should code(even if occasionally) or some who could be competent at a code review. Its precisely this kind of attitude that gives ammunition to the MBA culture of appointing people who are clueless about their current job to manage the best people under them.

The net result is getting people appointed who know nothing about the people they managing, or the line of work. And just take blanket common sense based decision which most of the times are wrong with regards to the domain they lead.

Regardless of who you are- architect, VP or whatever fancy title. If you claim to be the leader of a group of people with some specific skills you should be somebody who at the very least has mastered those skills.

According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among that group, in the job that group performs.

<comment><USER9> > _According to me anybody who claims to lead a group must be the best among > that group, in the job that group performs._

I think this is an error. Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents.

Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position, you're creating a destructive work environment. Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be efficiently partitioned.

<comment><USER8> >>Taking your best coder and then spending their time on not-coding is wasteful of their talents.

Or the way I look at it, such a guy in a leader ship position can mentor young passionate folks to be just like him.

>>Furthermore, insofar as you create competition to hold that position

Having competent guys compete for a position is far better than promoting a total idiot to lead such guys.

>>you're creating a destructive work environment.

How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment.

Most demotivating part of my day is when I spend time with my higher ups, explaining them some very basics things like SQL or regular expressions or about network call latency which most of the times they have no clue of. Many times its so bad, you really have to talk to them like you talk to your 9 year old nephew and even after hours of explaining things are so bad they can't really get simple things like the difference between a DOM parser and a SAX parser.

I am not saying the guy must code like a champion 24x7. But he should have atleast been some one who has built a thing or two under tough demanding deadlines. Some one who has leaned stuff doing it by experience and not just some guy whose only known accomplishment is being at the right place at the right time, riding an economic wave or being some god father manager's yes man.

>>Software development is a cooperative activity that can't be efficiently partitioned.

Exactly that is why we need one of us to lead us.

<comment><USER9> > _How is appointing a competent guy creating a destructive work environment, > and appointing an incompetent guy not creating a demotivating environment._

Because you based it on competition.

Holding that position, which presumably comes with better pay, perks and a résumé line item, is a _zero sum game_.

Everything good that programmer A does for the company now directly disadvantages programmer B and vice versa.

Do you think this creates conditions conducive to cooperative efforts like developing and maintaining complex software?

If you want to pick a leader, _pick a leader yourself_. Boohoo, it's hard and you might hurt people's feelings. Well too bad. Picking leaders is itself an act of leadership. Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of growing a cadre of good managers by connecting it all to numbers that encourage destructive behaviour. It's the lazy and gutless way to lead.

See _Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations_ for a full enumeration of why having people compete for a tech leadership job would easily destroy any small company.

<comment><USER8> You would be correct if compensation of any individual in our society would be independent of their title/position in the hierarchy. Unfortunately its not.

Either way competition is inevitable- If its not from the inside, it will be far worse- from the outside. And in most cases companies have to acqui-hire people or purchase out an entire product line because they just can't get innovation out of their own people.

But the sad fact is its not current employees are at fault here. Unless you are super foolish, why should you ever work hard when some guy who isn't doing 1/10th work you do or is 1/100th as competent take all the credit, money and power stealing your work? The net result is no one contributes, the company struggles and buys their life saving kits every now and them from the outside.

And no competent person will accept a incompetent person over them, especially when getting a job or doing a start up/side project is so easy these days. How many times have we seen companies that claim to hire all super candidates with all those algo/ds questions routinely acquire start ups at big prices, yet they can't get something half decent out of their super star regular hires.

If you look down below, you will see it all gets down to incompetent middle management.

>>Too many senior managers shirk the responsibility of growing a cadre of good managers by connecting it all to numbers that encourage destructive behavior.

No, they do it because they know competent folks will grow and become a threat do their positions.

<comment><USER9> I really think you should read that book I mentioned. It's by Robert D Austin, published by Dorset House.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This company has been looking for a VP of Engineering since at least last summer. I applied for this position back then. They got back to me with a ridiculous busy-work problem they wanted me to solve. I forgot then about them.

<comment><USER11> It has been no longer than 3 months...

<comment><USER12> That's _worse_ , it means you're running through them rather quickly....

<comment><USER11> My co-founder was previously the (only) VP of Engineering (and did a great job), but we mutually parted ways after the Series B. These things happen...

tl;dr, we are not "running through" them.

<comment><USER12> Your earliest press releases are from 2 years ago. How can you have lost that "only" VP of Engineering who as your co-founder was part of the team back then, be recruiting for the position a year ago, and be recruiting for the position now, but this time it is only been for the last 3 months ... well, I suppose you could have just not actively tried to fill the position during the gap, but that at least suggests it's not really that important. And why didn't you mention that?

<comment><USER11> That's because he (bob tekiela) was at 500friends until may of 2013.

In other words, op is lying/mistaken because we were not hiring for this role last year.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I am not a lawyer, but is this not illegal in the U.S.? Checking The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission website[1], it says under the "PROHIBITION OF AGE DISCRIMINATION" section:

      (e) Printing or publication of notice or advertisement indicating preference, limitation, etc.

[1] [http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm)

<comment><USER14> Seems like they're breaking the law to me, but it's not completely black and white. In the odd chance it would happen, wouldn't saying "20+ years of experience required", prevent anyone younger then 20 years from joining the company?

<comment><USER15> Actually, in the US, discrimination against younger people isn't illegal - it's only illegal to discriminate the other way 'round.

<comment><USER16> and iirc only applies to 40+ years of age or something along those lines.

<comment><USER17> 40 is correct [http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Yeah obviously. Who wants to hire gross old people in their shiny new startup.

<comment><USER19> Agile is only 12 years old [1], so it might be related to the old programmer joke about HR posting job ads that require 'x' years experience with 'y' year- old tech, for some x > y.

But that's grasping at straws, and if that is the intention it's a really unfortunate way of putting it.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development)

* edited to address the < / > mistake MaysonL pointed out. Thanks!

<comment><USER20> The joke is actually only funny for x > y ;-)

<comment><USER19> thanks, you're right. edited it now.

I'd claim that I subconsciously 'corrected' it, but let's be honest: what good would a post about a typical HR error be without a typical programmer error!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Not only is it blatantly ageist... It's stupid.

They want someone that has been building engineering organizations for 5-12 years, _after_ having been an individual contributor.

 _Then_ , they want you to drop back into an individual contributor role. At least initially. Wink wink nudge nudge.

<comment><USER21> It's not ageist. It doesn't say People who are 50 need not apply. From reading this job posting, someone who is 80, worked as a mechanic, a waiter, a clerk, and then picked up some newfangled technology might qualify.

Besides the whole Agile not being codified for more than 12 years thing, if you've been out of the loop managing for 12 years, they say they don't want you. Part of the process apparently involves showing that your technical skills are still there.

<comment><USER6> As i posted above... Lightweight processes were discussed as alternatives to waterfall way back in the 90s during my software engineering courses. "Rapid application development" and RAtional unified process were the "hot" lightweight methodologies when I started work in 1996. Scrum has been with us since 1995.

And yes, it's blatantly ageist... It falls under the disparate impact provision:

"In addition to prohibiting intentional discrimination against older workers (known as "disparate treatment"), the ADEA prohibits practices that, although facially neutral with regard to age, have the effect of harming older workers more than younger workers (known as "disparate impact"), unless the employer can show that the practice is based on an RFOA."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> It appears to say that they want (ideally) someone with 5-12 years of experience managing a team, after a successful career as an individual contributor. To me, that implies that they don't someone who has been just a manager for the last twenty years.

So it's possible that you could have been a developer for twenty years and then a manager for ten years and still be within their ideal range. Considering the CEO is about 24 years old, it's hard to believe that that is the case, though it is possible.

<comment><USER11> YES, YOU ARE CORRECT, THANK YOU.

And my team is very senior - check them out @ 500friends.com/team. We definitely value experience at 500friends.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Maybe they assume someone with 12+ years of experience would demand a higher salary than they can offer? They might identify such a candidate with a C-level position like CTO more than a VP position. I don't really know; I'm just trying to come up with a non-ageist explanation.

It might not be any different from how someone with 5+ years of experience normally wouldn't be considered for junior roles.

Or it might just be ageist.

<comment><USER4> So...put a top salary number in the ad? If this is a hard question, maybe they should be asking it in their interviews instead of linked-lists.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> 500friends, 42floors, 37signals... it's like Yahoo handlenames of the past, but for companies.

<comment><USER25> It's Count von Count's favorite kind of company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This posting is so bad and offensive, I hold it against the leadership team of this company. I certainly would think less of someone if someone else mentioned, "Oh they were on the leadership team at 500friends".

<comment><USER11> 500friends founder/CEO here. Look at my team - 500friends.com/team. Most people are who you may consider to be "old." And we wouldn't be where we're at without them. We do not discriminate against age.

What we meant is that we're looking for someone who has coded in the past decade. Someone that has been managing 1,000 people at Oracle may not be the right fit for a company of our stage. Make sense?

<comment><USER26> Hi Justin. It makes sense, but why didn't you say something more like that to begin with? Something like "Active development skills are part of the hiring criteria". You already mention doing Ruby development -- someone who hasn't coded in a decade, probably doesn't have much Ruby experience.

It just seems odd that of all the possible ways to ask for what you describe above, you choose arguably the most offensive and least effective way to do so. And I think as a marketing company, you should know better. The message matters -- not just the intent.

Seriously, think about a better way to phrase the requirement. There are several preferable ways to phrase the question (not just from a legal perspective, but even in terms of simply capturing the pool of candidates you desire).

<comment><USER11> You do have a point sir.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The reason for this is that if you haven't been coding (just managing) for 12+ years...you probably are not "hands-on" enough for a company of our stage.

We have gotten a lot of very smart but "big company" people who had applied for this position.

Sorry for the confusion however, most of our team is actually MUCH holder than the typical start-up: 500friends.com/team. We may be a lot of things but are definitely not ageist.

<comment><USER6> Before you edit much further:

 _We want someone who has less than 12 years of MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE. The reason is that if you haven 't been coding for 12+ years...you probably are not "hands-on" enough_

This arbitrary cutoff makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to see your quantification of skill drop off per year of management.

If what you are wanting is a hands-on technical manager, then you need to say so.

And it shouldn't matter if the person has been hands on for 5 years or 20.

But I feel I'm being a little too generous regarding your motives here.

<comment><USER11> this has caused so many misinterpretations that I have edited it out of the post completely...

But essentially, the ideal candidate was someone who was CODING 5-12 years ago...

<comment><USER27> you made the job ad look pretty bad now to people reading it with out knowning the first version...

       Note:
       Any notion that 500friends is ageist is a complete fabrication.  This can be validated by looking at our team (link).

really? this is how you chose to start your job ad now? that sounds so desperate, i'd never apply - not saying that i would have before, sorry :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I had an interview like this at Willow Garage about 5 years ago. The interviewer said he would call at 8:30am. He called at 8:54 and sounded like he'd had about 2 hours of sleep. Then he said he had a 9:00 meeting and would call me back at 12:30pm. He called about 12:55 and proceeded with a lackluster interview during which he confused knowledge representation with graphics programming. Perversely, the interview made me want to join Willow just to see the train wreck in progress. (In their defense they have produced some good robotics platforms since then.)

</comment><comment><USER29> Not sure why "best of the best" would be so inclined to join a company that has mission to help _marketers_ (primarily retailers) increase their _customer lifetime value_.

</comment><comment><USER30> This must be the ageism that everyone's been talking about. The whole team is probably under 30. The kids will never learn!

</comment><comment><USER31> The only reasoning I can come up with that could possibly support this is maybe they have the idea in mind that those with more than 12 years experience would be less able to adapt to newer ways of thinking?

<comment><USER32> That counts as ageist for me.

<comment><USER33> It likely does for the law as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> brown9-2 Somewhere out there is a great 30 year old who started working at 18 that this dumb company is missing out on.

<comment><USER34> I work with a few of them actually. I loved college but these guys were cutting their teeth on tech when I was cutting mine on beer pong. All of them are too smart to ever think about a job description like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Speaking on behalf of a LOT of people - F 500friends and the under-30 horse they rode in on.

<comment><USER11> Brian,

In our original job post, we had specified that the ideal candidate would, "not have more than 12 years of MANAGEMENT experience." We UNDERSTAND that this could be misunderstood to indicate that we do not value experienced people. As you can see from the seniority in our team however, this is far from the truth. The intent here was to indicate that we are looking for a "hands-on" VP of Engineering. Someone who has coded in the last decade and can solve issues themselves (rather than asking their engineering manager to then delegate it to a developer :).

Don't take my word for it, check out the people who work at my company - 500friends.com/team. 50%+ are 30+, and 25%+ are 38+

<comment><USER35> _Update_

Justin, thanks for the private reply as well. Props for the consistent and genuine efforts at damage control.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> shhh, you're not supposed to say the "no old people" part out loud.

</comment><comment><USER37> Crap. I have 11 years experience doing some pretty awesome shit. I guess this is the last year I can get a legit job in a startup.

<comment><USER38> Just tell them you have 1 year experience 11 times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Hey right over here everyone!!! This is called ageism.

If you write code and you are over 35, you are toast. Yes even you the "above average coder"...done and done.

Now wait till that immigration bill passes, make 150k? GOOD ___ing BYE.

<comment><USER40> _If you write code and you are over 35, you are toast._

In SV, maybe. Hopefully not so much elsewhere or I'm gonna have a hard time paying off my student loans...

<comment><USER39> I hate the fact you have to say that...it pisses me off to hear this. I was lucky I had minimal loans, and school was 1/2 the cost. If I can give a word of advice, spend less on car #1 and attack that loan, pay it off. Get to 0 debt.

<comment><USER40> Yeah, what can I say? Times are strange, and fatalism leads one to take risks.

<comment><USER39> I hear ya...more and more, I think our industry needs to unionize.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> What if we gave them the benefit of the doubt, and they were posting "no more than 12 years" because they want someone who's seen what happens but not someone who is steeped in it? Someone who is familiar with the problems but hasn't dealt with it so long that they are still naively excited about trying to change it?

For example, if x guy has been doing TPS reports for 12 years,maybe they are figuring that he has already just adjusted to a gotta-do-my-TPS-reports mindset?

just giving some benefit of the doubt

<comment><USER11> Thank you sir. my response here - [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6043188](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6043188)

Justin (500friends founder/CEO)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> it seems to have been removed (the 12 years part) btw.

i saw it earlier. perhaps it was a joke - agile manifesto was published 12 years ago? (an argument for this is that 12 years is a strange number to use otherwise).

[edit] and now there's a broken link on the front page saying that 26% of their team is older than 38. i hate to say it but (1) i told you so (2) do people lose their sense of humour with age? (3) i am 46 myself...

</comment><comment><USER43> It actually makes sense. It's not about age. Middle management has an expiration date. If you've been a middle manager for 15 years, that's bad bad bad. (Being an IC for 15 years is respectable; but once you move into management, you should make director in 5 years and VP in no less than 10.)

Programming has an ageism problem largely because it's run by career managers (who think all of us want to be them-- and we don't); engineers themselves aren't ageist. Management is where the ageism comes from and it's even worse in their world. It's not that they care about _age_ so much as they want to avoid hiring terminal middle managers, and I can't blame them for the latter. This fact has absolutely nothing to do with age, but terminal middle managers are toxic.

<comment><USER44> You can be fairly confident there some startups out there founding by 20 somethings, populated by 20 somethings, who think having someone over 30, or certainly over 40, on their team or even in their office would be akin to the plague. They would probably place them in the same camp as their parents.

I totally understand why coders like Agile, hey I like it because hacking code is the fun part :) Its also kind of a good fit for the app store era, where you throw something out there and see if its sticks before you actually develop most of it. Not entirely sure its actually a good way to develop nontrivial software.

<comment><USER11> Hello sir. 500friends founder/CEO here.

It's not that people with 12+ years of experience are not as good. We were trying to screen out candidates (many of them who are smart) but have been "managers" for so long that they can't get their hands dirty and solve issues themselves (something you have to do at a very small team).

Don't take my word for it, 26% of people on our team are older than 38. If you're bored, check out their bios at 500friends.com/team

Admittedly however, this was not clear in our post, and it has since been edited.

Thanks!!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Could also just be a publicity stunt</comment>


go to xkcd.com: The webcomic XKCD now has a command prompt - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/search?q=unixkcd

<comment><USER2> I ran the source through jsbeautifier.org yielding this: <http://gist.github.com/351418>

Some fun stuff:

* there is a MUD

* find kitten launches a mini-game

* apt-get moo

* i read the source code

<comment><USER3> Doesn't that spoil the fun of hunting for the Easter eggs?

<comment><USER4> Hunting for Easter eggs on a CLI with no "help" command? Grab a dictionary, and start trying all 1, 2, and 3 word combinations, and let me know what you find. I can wait.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I just noticed: _Web Results 1 - 10 of about 157 for unixkcd. (0.04 nanocenturies)_ I didn't know google showed nanocenturies!

EDIT: Apparently google is just having fun as when I refresh I also see:

 _Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190 for unixkcd. (1.21 gigawatts)_

_Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190 for unixkcd. (11.90 parsecs)_

 _Web Results 1 - 10 of about 198 for unixkcd. (0.02 femtogalactic years)_

 _Web Results 1 - 10 of about 198 for unixkcd. (0.09 microfortnights)_

 _Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190 for unixkcd. (0.12 centibeats)_

All interesting units of time. :)

<comment><USER6> I got (28.47 jiffies)

<comment><USER7> 1.07 times the velocity of an unladen swallow, at warp 9.11, 0.31e+43 Planck times

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I hope this is a permanent feature, not just for April Fools day.

</comment><comment><USER9>
      make me a sandwich

and

      sudo make me a sandwich

both work

<comment><USER10>
      find kitten

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> <http://xkcd.com/>

The front page has an embedded command prompt. You can navigate the comics by typing "prev" and "next". It also supports some unix commands.

According to "license.txt":

        Client-side logic for Wordpress CLI theme :: R. McFarland, 2006, 2007, 2008
        jQuery rewrite and overhaul :: Chromakode, 2010

<comment><USER11> Thanks for the link. When I clicked the submission the first hit on the google search was, um, this page on HN.

<comment><AUTHOR> .. and now the second link is a reddit page. Since I wasn't able to use the original link (xkcd.com), I used a google search. I probably should have used the google search with the query "q=xkcd" instead. Unfortunately, I can't change the link target.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Interestingly, you can see it log every unrecognized command via a GET request to /unixkcd/missing (look at source/firebug). It appears that he's been updating the source code with things that people commonly try ('rm' didn't used to be supported); I also look forward to a "what you crazy people on my site tried" comic.

</comment><comment><USER13> Awesome! Today's date is March 32nd.

guest@xkcd:/$ date

March 32nd

<comment><USER14> What's doubly awesome is that the source code _looks_ like it should say "March 22nd"!

<comment><USER15> Not if you look at the real source (not the github link above)

<comment><USER14> Fair.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This has got to be the coolest website for geeks. props.

</comment><comment><USER17> Protip: sudo rm -rf /

<comment><USER18> I tried that as well. And was very relieved when everything came back on refresh. :)

I'm impressed at that level of attention to detail. The license.txt file points you to the source of the command line interface, which is a Wordpress plugin:

<http://groups.google.com/group/wordpress-cli>

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> if you keep typing "go west" it lists the chorus from the Pet Shop Boys song "Go West"

[http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/GO-WEST-lyrics-Pet- Sh...](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/GO-WEST-lyrics-Pet-Shop- Boys/C0B89357A668B2E9482568A2001030CC)

<comment><USER20> And if you go back to the start and then go south:

       A dark hallway.

       Exits: north, south
       You are eaten by a grue.
       You're dead!

:)

<comment><USER21> And if you say

light lamp

before you go south, you don't get eaten :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> rm -rf works for the directories listed and will actually remove the link until you reload.

</comment><comment><USER23> I tried for three seconds and realized I can't use a command line without tab- completion.

</comment><comment><USER24> guest@xkcd:/$ man next

Request confirmed; you will be reincarnated as a man next.

<comment><USER25> man cat

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> All commands "xkcd_cli.js":

[http://github.com/chromakode/xkcdfools/blob/8602db51189fe555...](http://github.com/chromakode/xkcdfools/blob/8602db51189fe555b8cc9185440512bdaa6d236e/xkcd_cli.js)

</comment><comment><USER27> guest@xkcd:/$ ping

There is another submarine three miles ahead, bearing 225, forty fathoms down.

</comment><comment><USER28> Clojurian Fogus has had the same for a while: <http://blog.fogus.me/index.php?wptheme=CLI>

<comment><USER29> It looks like the XKCD is made from the same base code, but with a much nicer command interface. I'm going to have to move to their codebase.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> guest@xkcd:/$ fuck

I have a headache.

</comment><comment><USER31> COOL. Vimperator totally screws with it though.

<comment><USER32> <c-z> enters passthrough mode.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33>
      $ vi
      You should really use emacs.
      $ emacs
      You should really use vim.

<comment><USER34> $ nano

Seriously? Why don't you just use Notepad.exe? Or MS Paint?

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> the adventure map:

0:{description:'You are at a computer using unixkcd.', exits:{west:1, south:10}},

1:{description:'Life is peaceful there.', exits:{east:0, west:2}},

2:{description:'In the open air.', exits:{east:1, west:3}},

3:{description:'Where the skies are blue.', exits:{east:2, west:4}},

4:{description:'This is what we\'re gonna do.', exits:{east:3, west:5}},

5:{description:'Sun in wintertime.', exits:{east:4, west:6}},

6:{description:'We will do just fine.', exits:{east:5, west:7}},

7:{description:'Where the skies are blue.', exits:{east:6, west:8}},

8:{description:'This is what we\'re gonna do.', exits:{east:7}},

10:{description:'A dark hallway.', exits:{north:0, south:11},

<comment><USER36> See this video to understand the reference: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ04BG7TfA>

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Unfortunately, some comics and a robotfindskitten game don't fit to my laptops' 1024x768 screen (I have all unnecessary toolbars removed)

But still, very nice for a one-off feature that will only be available for one day.

</comment><comment><USER38> "cat" "look" "man" "go" "light" "light lamp" "reddit" all work

</comment><comment><USER39> Hey, it uses mibbit for its irc client - congrats axod :)

</comment><comment><USER40> Following commands work: \- ls \- emacs \- vim \- man \- cd \- random \- date \- man first \- man last \- man help \- cat \- display XXX (shows comic #XXX)

<comment><USER41> "man cat" also works :)

<comment><USER42> "hello joshua" is my favorite though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> With javascript disabled the link to 'Gui interface' is borked.

<http://www.xkcd.com/foo>

</comment><comment><USER44> Theres an adventure mode. Try "look" and "go"

<comment><USER45> don't go south!

<comment><USER2> Light your lamp before going south and you'll be fine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> lot's of locate commands:

locate ninja for example.

            ninja: "Ninja can not be found!",
            keys: "Have you checked your coat pocket?",
            joke: "Joke found on user.",
            problem: "Problem exists between keyboard and chair.

</comment><comment><USER47> You can get free shipping at the xkcd store.

      cheat mode
      cd store

</comment><comment><USER48> ~sigh~ Swordfish doesn't do anything Neither does Pass, Password, onMouseOver, or mouseover

</comment><comment><USER49>
      sudo apt-get upgrade

What does Randall have against Firefox?

<comment><USER50> nothing, it's a joke about upgrading from a command prompt to a gui

<comment><USER51> No, he put a || where I think it was meant to be &&:

if (($.browser.name == 'msie') || ($.browser.name == 'firefox' || $.browser.versionX < 3)) {

<comment><USER52> This is true. Sleep deprivation and logic don't mix well. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> guest@xkcd:/$ top

It's up there --^

guest@xkcd:/$ nano

Seriously? Why don't you just use Notepad.exe? Or MS Paint?

guest@xkcd:/$ vi

You should really use emacs.

guest@xkcd:/$ go down

On our first date? guest@xkcd:/$

</comment><comment><USER54> Favorite so far: > go Go where? > go there You cannot go there.

</comment><comment><USER55> $dig xkcdsucks.blogspot.com

Unrecognized service.

</comment><comment><USER56> This is great, but I wish it supported "find"

<comment><USER52> Try "find kitten". :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> I want the lost numbers to work 4815162342

</comment><comment><USER58> Cheat

gets you free shipping?

</comment><comment><USER59> guest@xkcd:/$ xinit

Unrecognized command. Type "help" for assistance.

</comment><comment><USER60> wget <http://xkcd.com>

<comment><USER61> That was neat. I tried to do it recursively. Doesn't seem to work, unfortunately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> also works: sudo shutdown -h now does not work: shutdown -h now

</comment><comment><USER63> shutdown -h 100000

And it goes immediately... Not good :)

</comment><comment><USER64> guest@xkcd:/$ more

Oh, yes! More! More!

<comment><USER64> sadly, 'kill' does not work.

<comment><USER57> Does now

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> with no sense of irony re the date either

</comment><comment><USER57> asl 6/m/battleschool I AM SO PLEASED

</comment><comment><USER65> try "asl"

best one yet!

</comment><comment><USER66> reboot

sudo reboot

</comment><comment><USER57> ASL

</comment><comment><USER67>
      guest@xkcd:/$ whoami
      You are Richard Stallman.
      guest@xkcd:/$ who
      Who are you?
      guest@xkcd:/$ cat
      You're a kitty!</comment>


Falsehoods Programmers Believe About International Bank Account Numbers (IBANs) - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/globalcitizen/php-iban/blob/master/docs/FALSEHOODS.md <comment><USER2> Note that the United Kingdom's ISO code is GB, it's the DNS that is wrong. The ISO code UK is reserved and won't be assigned.

(GB isn't a great code choice. The country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; Great Britain is only the large island and excludes Northern Ireland. Occasionally one sees car number plates in Northern Ireland where the GB has been altered or removed. [I realise cars is a different coding system, but it's the second most commonly seen for people, after DNS.])

<comment><USER3> Yes, I didn't quite understand this statement:

> IBAN country codes are the same as ISO3166-1 alpha-2 country codes. Quite > dangerously this is mostly, but not always the case. Take for example the > United Kingdom (UK vs. GB)

ISO-3166-1 alpha-2 assigns GB for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and banks in that jurisdiction also use GB for IBANs. Maybe this example should have been moved to the next point about IANA codes.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Wrote that on a whim before heading out to read bilingual poetry for World Poetry Day here in southwest China. Updated.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Redditpoll.com – A simple polling application I made for Reddit - <AUTHOR>

Hello Every one,
Few months ago i asked what to develop and you all gave me answer that develop a product that you will use and a products that solve real problems.
So here i have tried to solve the problem of posting polls on Reddit with this website.
Hope you will like it.
I would like to hear your feedback and comments.
site: http://redditpoll.com/ <comment><USER2> [http://redditpoll.com/](http://redditpoll.com/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Good stuff. I like how quick it is to make and post a question.

</comment><comment><USER4> Aha that's really great..

I have been using HN and Reddit since long. And I really felt that this feature was lacking.

<comment><AUTHOR> thank you, hope you like it.

<comment><USER4> Just checked it. I really liked it.

Hope it goes viral.</comment></comment></comment>


Perlbrew - manage perl installations in your $HOME - <AUTHOR> http://www.perlbrew.pl/

<comment><USER2> Many people probably know Perlbrew already, but the new site is outstanding and worth a visit.

I wrote two small things that may be helpful (or just vaguely fun) for people who use Perl{,brew}:

<https://github.com/telemachus/vim-perlbrew>

<https://github.com/telemachus/perlbrew-bash-completion></comment>


Email files to your Dropbox - <AUTHOR> http://sendtodropbox.com/

<comment><USER2> Nicely designed site, and the ability to modify the file structure is a very nice touch. Thanks.

Just thought of a question: how does the app deal if you resend an item of the same name, but with internal changes? Does it reject the upload? Put it copy the new over the old? Rename? (I'm going to test myself, but I'm also curious what you think it _should_ do.) I know that Dropbox can support changes, but I'm not sure how much of the API is available to developers.

Final update: revised files are handled perfectly (i.e., the item is updated with the same name and versions are available through Dropbox itself). Lovely.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is very cool, I just tried it and it works as advertised.

But what is going on with the DropBox API? They have changed it around to require pre-approval: "At this time, only mobile apps that run natively on the device are being approved" <https://www.dropbox.com/developers/announcements/6>

The documentation on how to do the OAuth authorization is missing -- just the mobile method is up.

And this kind of documentation does not exactly inspire confidence: "Remember, if you ever feel you need to store their password, then you are doing it wrong. Very wrong. Storing passwords is evil, and makes us hate you"

Why not explain that if a user changes passwords your app will stop working. Why not respond with a .png of a CAPTCHA when authenticating with a password?

</comment><comment><USER4> Does dropbox.com take offense (legally or otherwise?) that this app has the exact string "dropbox" in it's name?

EDIT: I'm interested in the trademark implications mostly, are there any?

</comment><comment><USER5> <http://wiki.dropbox.com/DropboxAddons/MailDrop>

<comment><USER6> MailDrop doesn't work quite the same way. In fact, MailDrop is rather strange. This is my understanding from reading that link -- I hadn't heard about it before.

First, I have to download an executable, so it's Windows-only. Second, it needs access to an IMAP account I control.

Those are both strange design decisions, IMO. What is it doing? Scanning my mailbox, downloading the attachments, and then placing them in my Dropbox folder to sync?

If I only want emails in the "Dropbox" label/folder to get sent to my Dropbox account then I can just configure my mail client to forward all matching emails.

That seems easier on several levels. It's easier for the developer, because they don't have to manage downloadable software, versioning, etc. and it's easier for the end user because they don't need to download anything and don't need to grant access to their mail account.

The only way these design decisions make sense, IMO, is if this app was written before the Dropbox API, which may very well be the case. But now they should do it the sane way. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My immediate reaction after using this: "Wow, Dropbox just became _even more awesome_ ". Great to have a program which gets such feelings of love from me.

<comment><USER8> For a long time, the only two applications I loved this much were vim and Photoshop. Now there are three.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is a great use of the API. Altho I wish the Dropbox team themselves would come with this option due to obvious security/privacy concerns (despite <http://sendtodropbox.com/legal>)

<comment><USER10> Indeed. I wouldn't use it unless it was an encrypted file, just because of those security concerns.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> See also: <http://gethabilis.com/>

<comment><USER7> Nice, but sendtodropbox.com one looks more professional (e.g. better design).

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why dropbox did not implemented something like this? Any idea?

<comment><USER13> Features do not simply exist by virtue of their possibility.

<comment><USER14> Nice quip but it doesn't answer the question. Dropbox has a good-sized engineering team and this is a feature useful enough that a third-party has implemented it for them. I would be very surprised if this was not a feature that Dropbox has discussed internally. So asking why they didn't do it is a reasonable question, even if the real answer is "they didn't get around to it yet".

<comment><USER15> I thought the implied answer was, "They didn't think of it." not "they didn't get around to it yet".

<comment><USER14> Usually it is, but in this case, I would bet money that Dropbox has floated the idea internally.

<comment><USER16> They had to've. In fact, Drew cited the following in his YC app:

# What are people forced to do now because what you plan to make doesn't exist yet? Email themselves attachments.

<http://files.dropbox.com/u/2/app.html>

<comment><USER14> Thanks, good to know my money is safe :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Congratulations.. You're Hired!</comment>


Ways to save Apple (1997) - <AUTHOR> http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple_pr.html <comment><USER3> Funny how some of these are way off, while others are pretty spot on:

7\. Don't disappear from the retail chains. Rent space in a computer store, flood it with Apple products (especially software), staff it with Apple salespeople, and display everything like you're a living, breathing company and not a remote, dusty concept.

<comment><USER4> I particularly love the ones that are both right and wrong:

72\. Try the industry-standard serial port plug. RS-422 should be a last resort.

(They replaced RS-422 not with RS-232, but USB)

14\. Do something creative with the design of the box and separate yourselves from the pack. [...] We'd all feel better about shelling out the bucks for a Power Mac 9600 if we could get a tower with leopard spots.

(Obviously Wired shouldn't be handing out design advice.)

28\. Don't lose your sense of humor. Build a very large life preserver and display it in front of your Cupertino, California, headquarters.

(Their new headquarters _is_ the life preserver.)

44\. Continue your research in voice recognition. It's the only way you're going to compete in videoconferencing and remote access.

(That's totally not what Siri is for.)

76\. Make damn sure that Rhapsody runs on an Intel chip. Write a Windows NT emulator for Rhapsody's Intel version.

(They switched to Intel purely for the sake of Intel, and never made that Windows emulator.)

<comment><USER5> Was it the Intel switch that enabled bootcamp though? That's clearly a better solution than maintaining a windows emulator, but does it meet the same point?

<comment><USER6> Not only did it enable Boot Camp, it also enabled third party Windows VMs like Parallels and Virtual box, and third party Windows API reimplementations (namely Wine)

<comment><USER7> We already had 3rd party emulators running VMs on PowerPC (and they were slow as molasses), what Intel allowed was 3rd party VMs to run FAST!

<comment><USER8> We had emulators, not VMs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> >50\. Give Steve Jobs as much authority as he wants in new product development.

</comment><comment><USER10> If you'd bought $10,000 of AAPL stock when this article was published (June 1997), it would be worth about $523,000 today, excluding dividends.

<comment><USER11> If I told you to buy $10,000 of Blackberry stock today, would you do it?

Buying AAPL in 1997 is as crazy as buying Blackberry today. The difference is Steve Jobs, but some people thought he was nuts too back in 1997.

<comment><USER12> Didn't Steve jobs sell 1.5 million shares in 1997? It caused a 12 year low in the company's stock price..

[http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Steve-Jobs- Confirms-A...](http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Steve-Jobs-Confirms- Apple-Stock-Sale-2812791.php)

<comment><USER13> Jobs made several poor decisions around Apple's stock, including after he came back. A few choices cost him billions of dollars (which would now be tens of billions for his wife). Fortunately for him, money wasn't something that he obsessed over.

<comment><USER14> You're talking about a guy who got in trouble for having his subordinates make up a fictitious board meeting to get a better strike price for his options.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/06/steve- job...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/06/steve-jobs- obituary-the-backdated-options-scandal/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > 98\. Testimonials. Create commercials featuring real-life people in > situations where buying a Mac (or switching to a Mac) saved the day.

This is an example of one thing that Apple gets really right. For some reason, other companies have found it really difficult to achieve the success that Apple has with their commercials and branding. Some (in my opinion) great work by Apple:

1\. 2013 Christmas Commercial ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v76f6KPSJ2w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v76f6KPSJ2w))

2\. Shot on iPhone6 ([https://www.apple.com/au/iphone/world- gallery/](https://www.apple.com/au/iphone/world-gallery/))

</comment><comment><USER16> > 24\. Pay cartoonist Scott Adams $10 million to have Dilbert fall in love > with a Performa repairwoman.

I can bet this was submitted by Scott Adams himself. It's sounds completely like him.

And that gives you the idea of the worth of these "101 ways" even at the moment they were published.

</comment><comment><USER17> tl;dr _" 101\. Don't worry. You'll survive. It's Netscape we should really worry about."_

</comment><comment><USER18> Kinda weird how much of this is the opposite of what worked.

<comment><USER19> I felt reading this is what life for a CEO must be like. To be continually bombarded with 101 ways to do the job. 80%+ are wrong, from people who absolutely believe at the time they are correct.

<comment><USER20> I think it's worse than that. You don't know the right answer, nobody else knows the right answer, and the only way get by is to guess and hope you get lucky. Apple got lucky. They built the iPod, which in hindsight, was a trans- formative product, but at the time it wasn't so obvious.

<comment><USER21> At the time it was a heavy music player with an annoying interface that only worked for mac users and was useless forever if you dropped it and the hard drive broke.

They fixed all those problems later versions, but the initial device was underwhelming to a lot of people.

<comment><USER22> I had an early one, and loved it. It's been slowly forgotten about over time, but the scroll wheel interface was an amazing innovation. Even years later I'd see people with MP3 players with up and down buttons struggle to scroll through a large list, whereas the scroll wheel made it comfortable, fast, and easy to control.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I love reading posts from the past like this, ironic how things actually played out for Apple. Interestingly a few of the points actually happened, specifically; point #7, point #12, point #14 and more interestingly "39\. Build a laptop that weighs 2 pounds." \- kind of fitting that this played out for Apple focusing on thinner and lighter products than competitor offerings.

This takes me back to the days leading up the new release of the first iPhone. Everyone was predicting that an Apple phone would fail, that Apple should stick to what they know and in a short amount of time they proved everyone wrong and became the largest smartphone manufacturer in the world.

<comment><USER24> These were interesting to me:

16\. Take better care of your customers -- Apple support is pretty good, especially if you can get to a store

26\. If you sell it, make it -- Their supply chain integration and control is impressive today

38\. Make it easier for ISVs to make applications -- The app store and the development ecosystem is important for apple

50\. Give Steve Jobs as much authority as he wants in new product development -- This paid off hugely

53\. Recharge your strategy for Europe -- Apple is a very global company and is pushing into lots of markets

59\. Invest heavily in Newton technology -- Apple parked that particular project, but the iPhone and iPad followed

Some clearly joke entries, and some misses and terrible ideas, but definitely some interesting insights as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> > 31\. Build a PDA for less than $250 that actually does something: a) > cellular email b) 56-channel TV c) Internet phone.

Here, here! If it's a measly 55-channel toy, I'm sending it back.

</comment><comment><USER26> > 97\. Have Pixar make 3001, A Space Odyssey, with HAL replaced by a Mac.

Kinda like Wall-E's charge-cycle-complete boot sound and EVE's iPod-inspired design.

</comment><comment><USER27> I remember reading this in 1997, about a year after I switched from the awful Mac Performa that I had used in college and dragged out west with me to the first in a series of increasingly uninspiring beige WinTel boxes. It would be nine years before I switched back.

It's really easy to engage in hindsight-powered analysis. This article seemed perfectly reasonable at the time.

</comment><comment><USER28> There are some very interesting things here... Some jewels that proved to be very accurate, and some that were way off... But i think that the positive ones are winning...

#1 - Foxconn.

#2 - OSX for computers, iOS -> iPhone, iPad, AppleTv

#3 - Debatable, but one could argue that Apple Store did this at first

#4 - Steve Jobs listed in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One- dollar_salary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-dollar_salary)

#5 - iPhone #, iPad #, but not related with speeds, besides of "greater number, greater speed"

#7 - Apple Stores

#8 - 1998. I still remember the ad with Shes A Rainbow

#10 - Well, they did build an enormous image.

#9, #11, #12 - Or... do just the opposite xD

#13 - Hello, I'm a PC.

#14 - Again, 1998. G3, and everything that came next...

#15 - Say Hello to China!

#16 - YMMV :)

#17, #18 - This will contradict the next one. A corporate won't buy based on fanaticism (at least in theory... I hope...)

#19 - They did what they could, with what was available back then.

#21 - With this item and #31... I really don't know what to think...

#22 - #24 - No, no, no.

#25 - Portables and mobile! That was the future back then. And they did... eventually. # 26 - Here comes China again!

#27 - Or... make it _expensive_... I mean... _exclusive_

#30 - Secure the hearts and wallets of college students, OK. But with marketing.

#31 - What kind of advice is this?? That will NEVER, EVER work, cellular email? _Internet Phone_ ??? ... Oh.. wait.

#32 - Always start with: We have sold X number of Y!

#34 - Done.

#36 - Hello iBook

#37 - Ok. Hello OSX

#39 - Easier said than done. Tech was not there yet. But eventually...

#40-43 - It didn't matter.

#44 - Or just buy someone who does... Hello Siri

#47 - New upgrade path: just buy the new device.

#50 - Give Steve Jobs as much authority as he wants -> OK!

#51 - Speak with both, but mostly to the consumer, yes. (through ads, and paid journalists...) #53 - And sell everything from Ireland!

#54 - <USER2>

#59 - You can't have #15 (dump newton) and this (invest heavily in newton technology)... choose one. One could say Apple choose #59.

from here, a lot of the items seem like jokes...

#60 - Again, contradicting with previous items.

#63 - Ok. #70 - Ok! #76 - Ok, and bye bye PowerPC Eventually.

#94 - Maintain differentiation between Wintel and Apple... Even when using intel technologies, _we are not a PC_.

#95 - Hello, I'm a Mac.

#101 - Bingo!

<comment><USER29> #5 - I'm young so I think it's interesting (and super informative) that people believed in a naming convention that immediately tells you what hardware you're getting. The rise of frilly landing pages and just-look-at-the- computer-case-not-the-numbers marketing makes it frustrating for hardware- oriented shoppers like me to find what I want efficiently (basically I think #14's "pretty box" solution gained a little too much traction in the marketing aspect)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> > 8\. Buy a song. Last year, it would have been "Respect" by Aretha Franklin. > This year, maybe it's "Ain't too Proud to Beg."

Why buy one song when you can buy all of them?

</comment><comment><USER31> this has made Hacker News many, many times

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7877980](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7877980)

</comment><comment><USER32> 31c was a pretty good idea

</comment><comment><USER33> 1\. limewire

</comment><comment><USER17> Single page: [http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple_pr.html](http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple_pr.html)

<comment><USER34> Thanks. Url changed from [http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple.html](http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/5.06/apple.html).

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Ye, Gods. Yet another Apple story.

They are a for profit (and quite a lot of it) corporation that makes shiny gadgets.

Why do we keep talking about them incessantly? If we are not talking about what Apple is doing now, then we are talking about what somebody said about Apple 20 years ago.

I'm of course making the problem worse or meta-worse, if you will, by talking about talking about Apple, but I just don't understand this whole deification of a profit making entity.

<comment><USER36> Apple is one of the most important and influential tech companies in the world right now. There's a lot of Apple articles for the same reason there's a lot of Google/Amazon/Facebook articles.

They also have a lot of pretty devoted fans, but don't confuse ponderings on the industry with fanboyism.

<comment><USER35> > Apple is one of the most important and influential tech companies in the > world right now.

No. You are confusing admired with influential.

<comment><USER36> No, I really don't think I am. Apple essentially created the modern smartphone market. Android was Google saying "We've got to get in on that." You're going to accuse me of fanboying now, but I've never owned an iOS device; I think Android is better and I wouldn't use anything else. But without the iPhone, Android as we know it would not exist.

You don't like Apple or Apple products, and that's fine and fair, but you are confusing your personal opinion with the actual state of the market. Quality and influence aren't always related, much as we might wish it were otherwise.

<comment><USER35> This is not about Android or iPhone. Or Google or whoever. I'll happily acknowledge that Apple sells well thought out products.

I stand by what I said earlier. There's too much of a cult of personality associated with Apple. Why do we shrink our worldview to gossipy discussions of a corporation. Tell me something interesting, something edifying that came up in this discussion?

<comment><USER36> > _This is not about Android or iPhone. Or Google or whoever. I 'll happily > acknowledge that Apple sells well thought out products._

You specifically said that I was wrong to call them influential. I think Android demonstrates that they are. That makes it relevant.

> _I stand by what I said earlier. There 's too much of a cult of personality > associated with Apple. Why do we shrink our worldview to gossipy discussions > of a corporation. Tell me something interesting, something edifying that > came up in this discussion?_

Past predictions about the future of the industry have always had currency on Hacker News, from pre-electronic sci-fi like Wells' World Brain to Engelbart's 1968 "mother of all demos" to mid-'90s attempt to get a handle on the internet, and so on and so forth. Apple wasn't terribly relevant in the mid-'90s, but they _had been_ relevant (the Apple II, bringing Xerox's GUI ideas to the home desktop), and as it turned out they would be relevant again. This particular article is not exactly a giant of the genre, but it's a window into the conditions of the time and what people cared about and anticipated.

<comment><USER35> You are right about Android and Xerox's GUI. (There were others who were thinking in a similar direction (Openmoko for one), and I would argue that both of these things would have happened anyway. But Apple definitely moved the state of the world forward.)

However, my larger point is that Apple produces things of only one color -- things that you can exchange over the counter against money. Black box objects that are essentially consumer electronics -- things that die in 2, 4, 7, whatever years.

Contrast that with most other tech companies. Even if I don't care a whit about what they sell (witness IBM, Microsoft, Facebook -- I don't use any of their products directly) -- I (and the world) profit from their research and that gives them greater longevity than Apple.

So to correct what I said -- admired but not long term influential.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>