Show HN: Compare benefits of second passport based on the one you have - <AUTHOR> https://multinational.io/ <comment><USER2> I believe Germany makes you renounce your old citizenship in most (not all) cases to gain German citizenship, but you have it listed as allowing it?

Though I believe they recently made an exception for Americans getting charged ridiculous fees to renounce if it was more than a month of income, or similar.

Thanks for making this! I'm a US citizen applying for naturalization in a few months. Here's to 7% more territory! Though really, the EU ought to be something of a block since it means the right to live and work throughout, not just in one country. For now, at least.

Also, worth noting that Republic of Ireland might get a bonus factor, in a sense, for soon being the only passport that lets you work throughout the EU and the UK.

<comment><USER3> > I believe Germany makes you renounce your old citizenship in most (not all) > cases to gain German citizenship, but you have it listed as allowing it?

Same for The Netherlands[1]

[1] [https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual- nati...](https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual-nationality)

<comment><USER4> You can keep the previous citizenship (and thus have two) if you're a citizen of another EU country or Switzerland. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_ci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_citizenship)

<comment><USER5> It doesn't seem that OP takes in such conditions into the dual citizenship data. Would be nice if he did.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Best second passport for an Australian: Germany.

... well, I guess that means I'm a lucky person when it comes to passports. When I reverse search, the best second passport for a German is "Application Error", and I sure have plenty of those as well :)

<comment><USER7> It's showing Ivory Coast now. Probably because one will get access to several African nations.

<comment><USER8> But which African countries sell citizenship?

<comment><USER9> Pretty much all countries probably will sell citizenship if you're a multi- billionaire.

The UK situation, for example:

>"Officially called a "Tier 1 investor" visa in the UK, the scheme gives individuals residency in exchange for investing £2m in UK bonds or shares through a bank, with applicants eligible for indefinite leave to remain, and even full citizenship, after five years. That is, unless they can stump up more cash: those offering £5m can settle after three years, and those with £10m after just two." ([https://www.theguardian.com/uk- news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk- news/2017/jul/04/golden-visa-immigration-deal-british-citizenship-home- office))

Now it's the Grauniad so I don't expect it to be completely right but I expect it's close -- [THIS BIT IS WRONG, PROPERTY INVESTMENT IS EXCLUDED: so make a company to buy your small pied-a-terre in London for a few £Million and you get access to citizenship.]

Things have tightened up recently for Russians, not sure about others.

See also [https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor](https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-investor).

<comment><USER10> _> Things have tightened up recently for Russians_

I believe it's for everyone, you basically have to indicate where your money is coming from to a higher degree of detail. It's an anti-money-laundering measure, I think, more than anything. The situation had become shameful, with London being the black-economy capital of the world.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> One thing I noticed: for me (Kiwi/Brit), India is listed as "visa on the border/online" and the USA and Canada are listed as "visa free". But in practice the process is about the same, because the "visa waiver" programmes (ESTA/ETA) now require online registration, and the Indian "e-visa" can now be done online. Admittedly the Indian e-visa is more expensive and requires a bit more information to be supplied, but I wonder if, "visa-free" travel and "visa" travel are converging...

<comment><USER12> The not-a-visa visa (ESTA) is done to get around international visa waiver agreements and avoid retaliation. Now that the US has gotten away with it other countries are following suit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> As an actual dual citizen, let me tell you the downside:

Keeping two passports up to date is a non trivial amount of work and expenses, and perhaps travel. Depending on the two countries, of course.

Unless you travel a fair amount, it is often not worth the effort. I've given up on keeping my old passport current, and feel good!

<comment><USER14> For what two countries are you a dual citizen? Which one isn't worth the effort to keep up to date?

I'm a dual citizen for the United States and Mexico, and it's fairly easy to update my Mexican passport here in the United States - not sure if that's the case inversely.

<comment><USER15> For many you either need to do it in the issuing country or at an embassy. Example: [https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/utlevel- igenylese](https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/utlevel-igenylese)

I live in vancouver so my choices include a 4.5 hrs flight to Toronto, paying very close attention when they travel to Vancouver (which is effin rare, see [https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/kihelyezett- uegyfelfogada...](https://ottawa.mfa.gov.hu/eng/page/kihelyezett- uegyfelfogadas) \-- right now if you try to get an appointment you simply get a 'no appointments available' error) or just renew my passport in Hungary. For me, that's relatively easy since I am back there at least twice a year so that's OK. But the bastards just changed the procedures so the valid date is your last birthday so when I recently renewed I got 9 years and 1.5 months instead of ten years. And, if all goes by plan in a few years I won't travel to Hungary ever again so this will become a major hassle but as long as the idiot government doesn't pull a Huxit it's still worth it because it gives me free movement in the EU.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I've wondered about becoming a 'citizen of the world': what is the combination of passports that grants citizenship to the most nations? For example, this immigration attorney cites a client who held 8 concurrent citizenships[1]:

Cape Verde (through economic citizenship)

Belize (though economic citizenship)

Dominica (through economic citizenship)

Grenada (through economic citizenship)

Saint Kitts and Nevis (through economic citizenship)

Ireland (island) (through lineage)

Canada (through naturalization)

The United Kingdom (through naturalization in a British Overseas Territory)

[1] [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-greatest-number-of- citizen...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-greatest-number-of-citizenships- ever-held-by-one-person)

<comment><USER17> To me this represents more of a risk than a benefit. If you enter on a Venezuelan passport and that government decides it wants something from you, the host country might be obligated to hand you over regardless of your interesting variety of passports.

<comment><USER18> You could always get help from the embassies of your other passports' countries.

<comment><USER19> most embassies are unable to help if you are in the country of your other citizenship. e.g. i won't get "help" from the UK if I'm in trouble in NZ (UK/NZ national)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It just tells me "Application error". What's the difference between that and [https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php](https://www.passportindex.org/comparebyPassport.php)?

<comment><USER21> It's down so I can't see, but I assume this is doing a calculation I tried to do using passportindex and had trouble with:

Most passport rankings are by total number of places you can go. But given I already have one passport, what value do I get from a second passport? For example, Canada, USA, Uk, etc have fairly similar sets of countries you can go to. But maybe there's a passport that gets me access to the various middle Eastern and African countries I don't have access to. So maybe something lower overall rated is better as my 2nd passport.

<comment><USER22> Check the tab "Improve" on the passportindex.

It'll show you what you get out of a second, third etc passport.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> As a dual UK & Australian citizen I'd be keen to see 'Brexit Mode' \- I imagine that other EU passports suddenly become more desirable...

</comment><comment><USER24> One thing that may have been good to add, is the length of time / financial requirements to get citizenship.

For example, I'm personally planning to move to Ireland relatively soon; in part because it's one of the easiest to get dual citizenship (5 of the last 9 years)[1].

[1] [https://www.quora.com/Which-EU-country-has-the-easiest- citiz...](https://www.quora.com/Which-EU-country-has-the-easiest-citizenship- requirements)

<comment><USER25> Same, though not solely for EU citizenship, but also because I love Ireland. My issue is just getting a job, so it's likely going to be back to school for me, which will push off the counter for years, but give me more networking opportunities.

<comment><USER24> Something I'm still trying to figure out is if I can have a remote job. There are plenty of jobs that are remote.

<comment><USER26> The thing that's difficult in Ireland is internet access if you're living outside of Dublin. We looked at moving to Dingle for a bit, but we couldn't find anything available (from America) that had high speed internet. Granted, it was out in the countryside, so I completely understand, but it was a non- starter as far as going there for a remote job was. It's just something you have to keep in mind that if you're coming from an American city you may not think about.

<comment><USER27> Was that a while ago? Dingle town (and many other small towns in Kerry) have fibre: [https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout-map/](https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout- map/) .

Lots of houses have been connected in the last 2-3 years.

<comment><USER26> Yeah, it was a few years ago. That's amazing, though. I'm going to have to show my wife this map!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is interesting.

It could include better information for dual citizenship. For example, I searched for China, which does not allow dual citizenship at all, and the search results showed the results for the reciprocal relationship country. Because of the complexity of countries reciprocal relationships, I guess this would need to be a 1-1 mapping country to country.

I liked you used the term 'Select your current passport:' and avoided the term 'country' because some passports are for territories.

So I checked a territory, Hong Kong. There wasn't an option whether this is the modern HKSAR or the old British National (Overseas), or could it be British Overseas Citizenship? These are all edge cases, cumulatively edge- cases for 10s of millions of people, but perhaps they're better solved by local services rather than a general solution.

The main problem of dual-citizenship I've seen is when one embassy says they can't deal with a problem, so go to the other embassy. The other embassy says the same. A bit of a no-man's-land.

</comment><comment><USER29> Cool! With my 2nd citizenship (italian) I get +Brazil, Iran, and Venezuela.. wait.

That said, always been planning on using my 2nd citizenship to live in Europe for an extended period of time. My wife is British, and pretty soon, might need the connection through me to have EU benefits...

<comment><USER30> You can actually figure out what your best 3rd citizenship is by passing the parameters into the URL e.g.,

[https://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20Kingdo...](https://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20Kingdom+Canada)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> The blue SJ territory between Greenland and Russia is Svalbard, part of Norway. (not a bug in the map!)

It's not part of the Schengen zone, so will allow people to enter visa free but presumably you need visitor rights to the country you're coming from (compare Andorra).

</comment><comment><USER32> Maybe I'm out of the loop but I feel like the utility would be greatly increased with a sentence or two. I have no idea what the values in the table mean, let alone why I'd want or need a second passport. (Also, what "HDI" is)

<comment><USER33> FYI: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I would be wary about having a dual citizenship if you are intending to do security clearance government work in the states.

I was actually going to work for the US government during my junior to senior year at school. I had 3 internships lined up. One in Germany, one with a REU doing gold nanoparticle fabrication at an IVY league school, and one with the government. But at the last moment got burned because I wasn't able to gain security clearance. I even did drug tests etc and the process took me several months, I accepted the position many months prior before summer started

They never gave me a valid reason but I was grilled on the fact a few weeks prior that I recently renewed my 10 year contract with my birthplace's citizenship.

I live in America. The government treats it as a moral gray area for you to work in high secure areas while having a dual citizenship, especially if its recently renewed (which was the case for me, my 10 yr dual citizenship was going to expire around same time I was going to work for US government). The other citizenship I had was a 1st world country as well with very good relations to USA, so it was kind of weird.

</comment><comment><USER35> Can't be a dual chinese / american citizen. Would be nice for my family.

<comment><USER36> I know several people that are dual citizens of China and US. China doesn't recognise the second citizenship, but that doesn't prevent you having it. If China finds out, though, they'll apparently strip you of your Chinese citizenship.

<comment><USER37> Travel between US/CN will be a hassle for those people because the border control officials of China won't let you board the flight if you show your CN passport doesn't have US visa. One loophole is that you can use Hong Kong as the middle hop since you don't need passport to visit HK.

The dual citizen status is actually very common. If a child's parents are Chinese citizen working/studying in US with a temporary visa (H1b, F1) and the child was born in US, the child is eligible to be a Chinese citizen, thus a dual citizenship.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Worth noting that Brexit spiked Rep of Ireland passport applications given that everyone in Northern Ireland is eligible.

[https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit- ai...](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-aids-surge- in-irish-passport-applications-1.3513043)

</comment><comment><USER39> This says that Denmark does not have dual citizenship. It seems [1] that may be not true.

[1] [https://www.thelocal.dk/20141218/denmark-passes-dual- citizen...](https://www.thelocal.dk/20141218/denmark-passes-dual-citizenship- bill)

<comment><USER40> I can confirm this isn't true. Danish/US dual-national right here. Denmark is fully aware of my US citizenship.

<comment><USER41> How did you become a dual national?

<comment><USER40> Born in Denmark to a Danish father and American mother. When you're born on foreign soil to an American parent that parent declares your birth to the United States and you receive a Consular Report of Birth Abroad: your US birth certificate.

I know for a fact the Danish state allows for dual-nationals because I just renewed my Danish passport and because of new biometrics requires dual- nationals to give a copy of this Report.

There's one big downside to all this, since Denmark now knows very clearly I am two people. Should the state decide to revoke this law I will most likely be forced to choose. Which would be unfortunate, since I can't imagine living in just one or the other country.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Could you include years of residency to obtain the second passport in your calculation?

</comment><comment><USER43> Is there something like this that takes into account long term stays?

I.e. if I'm a US Citizen, it would probably be more advantageous to have an EU Nation 2nd Passport so I have unrestricted access to all EU member countries

</comment><comment><USER44> American abroad here:

My utility function optimizes for having a secondary citizenship in a stable place should the U.S. go down the toilet even more than it has. Switzerland it is for me. (it's self-standingly awesome enough to want citizenship here outside of the aforementioned).

Also: maybe I want to slum it a bit more elsewhere in Europe without having to have a specialized visa to permit my working somewhere without a well-paying job, which is basically a requirement for Americans in Europe.

Also also: the old world is really nice place to raise a child and is family friendly.

</comment><comment><USER45> How do you calculate the score for best second citizenship in detail? You should probably add a page for that.

I.e. I get told that the best second nationality I could get is Serbian... Why though?

<comment><USER46> So did I! Although my country, Ireland, isn't explicitly listed.

Looks like it takes "territory" (+40%) as a major input. Russia, China and Mongolia are big countries by land area which have a good understanding with Serbia, but nothing special with EU states. Guessing most Europeans will also hit Serbia. What's the actual most useful second passport to an Irish person? Probably American.

<comment><USER47> I have to think American citizenship would be a pretty bad choice for a second passport, since America taxes its citizens on income earned abroad. You'd be approximately doubling your taxes if you are already taxed on income while abroad.

(FWIW I'm an American)

<comment><USER48> America will let you deduct your foreign taxes, so if you live and pay taxes in a high tax country then you in theory won't actually owe anything to the US, but instead you'll owe your accountant for helping you file.

<comment><USER47> Interesting. I was not aware. Wouldn't you still owe the IRS money if the foreign taxes are deducted?

As far as I understand tax deductions work like: Initial Income - Deduction = Adjusted Income. Then, you owe full taxes on the Adjusted Income.

Let's say European Tax Rate is 40%, American Tax Rate is 20% (hypothetically!)

Foreign income is 100k USD equivalent.

You pay 40k taxes in Europe and are left with 60K.

You deduct 40K from Initial Income, leaving you with adjusted income of 60K. You then pay 20% of that (12K) to the IRS, leaving you with 48K.

So you're in this hypothetical tax range taxed at less than US+European tax, but still have an effective tax rate much greater than not having US citizenship.

Simple formula I think:

Effective Tax = Income x EuropeanTaxRate + (Income-Income x EuropeanTaxRate) x AmericanTaxRate

Factor out income etc. I'm on my phone :-)

<comment><USER49> You don't pay taxes on on your first like 118k in income [1]. Because this lowers your AGI even if you make more than that you still start at the bottom of the tax bracket. Rough example you make 125k thus 125k-118k - 7k in taxable income thus in 10% bracket. There are obviously other rules for non W-2 income and property taxes.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_earned_income_exclusion)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> The maps on the comparative pages could use a different (ideally equal area) projection. At present, the free-for-all status of Svalbard is extremely prominent :-)

</comment><comment><USER51> TIL my shiny new Dutch passport gets me into Iran (British one did not). That's pretty cool.

</comment><comment><USER52> Very cool. It'd be nice to be able to type in the select box because scrolling hundreds of countries is not fun.

Also some countries are hard to find even in alphabetical order. e.g. South Korea == Korea, South == Republic of Korea == Korea, Republic of

</comment><comment><USER53> You are missing working holiday schemes - typically one of the easier ways to get a chance of moving abroad. Caveat is they are mostly under 30-yo type of deal, but its quite feasible to gain citizenships before that.

</comment><comment><USER54> Can I ask how you made the world map that is interactive and color-coded?

<comment><USER55> It uses [https://www.chartkick.com/](https://www.chartkick.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> Where did you get the data?

I have just driven down West Africa, and I can tell you the "visa requirements" are very fluid, and what applies one day does not necessarily apply the very next!

<comment><USER42> Would love to read a blog post about this when you've got the time to spare during your adventure!

<comment><USER54> About the visas?

[1] is the most I've written.

I documented where you can get every single Visa while on the move, and how much they each cost in my eBook "Overland Travel Essentials: West Africa: Myths, Misconceptions and Misnomers" [2]

[1] - [http://theroadchoseme.com/west-african- visas](http://theroadchoseme.com/west-african-visas)

[2] - [https://amzn.to/2O75Uxr](https://amzn.to/2O75Uxr)

<comment><USER42> Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> I spotted a mistake. Armenia is visa-free for citizens of Belarus.

</comment><comment><USER57> Could you please add options for 3 passports? I actually have US/Canada/Finland and it would be interesting to see, although US v Canada is probably almost identical.

<comment><USER58> The site actually has this option. Choose two passport to compare, and click on the link "best third passport", and select your country

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> It shows that I don't need a visa as a German going to USA.

Is this really true?

I had the impression I can't simply go to USA whenever and as long as I wanted, which sounds like needing a visa to me.

<comment><USER60> Not needing a visa and not being able to stay for as long as you wanted are two different things, what you're looking for is "free movement". If you hover "ease of travel" on the best second passport page, they show this with "freedom of movement > visa free > visa on the border".

Eg for a lot of asian countries, we european can go at will, without a visa, as long as you stay for 30 days or less. It's not a visa on arrival either, they merely stamp your passport with the entry date. But if you want to stay longer, you need to ask for a visa (and for some countries, you can do that visa on arrival, in the airport).

However for the US, us european still need to apply to the ESTA, which is a visa in anything but in name. I'm not sure why the EU is not forcing the US to drop it for us, or force it back on US citizen coming here, because this seems to be a trickery against the "no visa required" deal.

<comment><USER61> Tourism economy is why the EU doesn't reciprocate the ESTA policy.

US Can do without tourism (it's actively sacrificed tourism with successive post 9/11 travel restrictions) but the EU countries would suffer greatly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Have you considered adding the possibility to input multiple passports you already hold?

Like if I already have 2, and am trying to decide on a 3rd, it'd be difficult to compare all 3.

<comment><AUTHOR> You can do it from the [https://multinational.io/compare_passports/](https://multinational.io/compare_passports/) page. (And if'd like to add more than two you can manually add it to the url)

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> This is a cool site! One minor bug, the "third passport" link in the "see also" section seems to be mistranslated. It says "nacionales" instead of "nationals".

</comment><comment><USER64> If I wasn't so lazy, life hacking my way around the world to get multiple citizenships sounds kinda fun. serious. i wonder if anyone has done this...

<comment><USER65> Have got Belgium, US, and Auzzie citizenship :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Would really be nice if I could select the region and/or countries I'm more interested in to know what the second best passport would be.

</comment><comment><USER66> Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not countries though.

<comment><USER67> They are nevertheless territories with a local government which enforces restrictions on entry. For the purpose of travel restrictions they are very similar to ordinary countries.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> This will be more useful after Brexit...

</comment><comment><USER69> This is awesome. Great idea, it works.

</comment><comment><USER70> What about actual multinationals?

<comment><AUTHOR> There's an option for a third best passport for dual-citizens on the best passports page: [http://multinational.io/best_passport](http://multinational.io/best_passport)

<comment><USER70> I've already got three.

<comment><AUTHOR> Impressive! You can add the third one to the url manually, e.g. [http://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20States+...](http://multinational.io/best_passport/the%20United%20States+Canada+Australia)

<comment><USER70> Meh, it's not that exciting, but thanks for the tip!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> most stupid comparison. the number of visa free countries is completely bullshit. who wants to travel to saudia arabia or sudan. the real benefit of a second passport is whether that passport allows you to live in a country and have decent life or at least give you backup in the future.

</comment><comment><USER72> this is absolutely brilliant thank you.

</comment><comment><USER73> Too bad it doesnt work ... whats the point of using heroku if you don't even scale your dynos under heavy load

<comment><USER74> Heroku's standard tier doesn't have auto-scaling. You have to be using the $250/month performance dynos for it. I'd suspect that's not feasible for a little hobby project.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did not expect it to get any attention, so it was on the free tier dyno when it hit the front page. (And even seem to have held up for some time judging by the logs, before dying from the extreme lack of available ram.) Bumping it to the standard dyno when I noticed the issue was enough to keep it running.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> Comparing Australia and Canada shows they have the same ease of access to US. This is not correct, since Australians have to apply online for an ESTA prior to travel.</comment>


Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51630630 <comment><USER2> When I was a young boy, I had fantasies of such secret doorways/passages/treasures being everywhere due to consumption of copious stories/comics involving such plots. When I did visit old ruins/temples etc, my searching eyes would be looking for that overlooked odd stone that was waiting for centuries just to be pushed so that it can reveal its ancient secrets.

Reading this discovery of the secret doorway sort of gave me a sense of vicarious validation.

<comment><USER3> Me and my friend once discovered one when we were kids.. Dunno what age we were, say 8.. We were exploring this abandoned country estate house that was near his house.. In a library there was one shelf that was still filled with books, turns they were fake books and the shelf was a door. It led to a stone staircase going down to a little underground chapel.. It was super creepy at the time.. Awesome experience tho. I still remember it obvs.

That house has since been done up and is a super posh hotel / golf course now. Now called 'Faithlegg house hotel'.

<comment><USER4> I wonder why anyone would take such pains to hide an innocent chapel.

<comment><USER5> If it was in the UK, there was a period of time when the monarch was Catholic and burned Protestants at the stake and then the monarch changed and then the Catholics started getting burned. People of the "wrong" religion would have to practice in secret.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_hole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_hole)

<comment><USER6> And ironically, the people who would be the best off would be the atheists who were willing to pretend to go along with whatever was in control at the time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There's a great (long) article on the building of the Palace of Westminster at [https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/01/a-tale-of- decay...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/01/a-tale-of-decay-the- houses-of-parliament-are-falling-down), on how new infrastructure has just been added over time, never removing the old stuff because there's no time, and—with plans being lost—how this results in new shafts being found every now and then in the course of fixing leaks etc.

<comment><USER8> Good to see both software architects and architecture architects run into same issues with legacy stuff.

<comment><USER9> Blocking a hall is like commenting out code.

<comment><USER10> Ha, more like putting it in a block like `if (debug == True) ...`

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There is also a pathway under the Ministry of Defense building to the preserved remains of Henry VIII's wine cellar. MoD is built on top of a section of the former Whitehall palace. It's a cool site to see that's closed off from the general public. I've been fortunate enough to visit, and it's perfectly preserved. One day when the MoD is done with that building, perhaps it will open to the public again. [http://stuffaboutlondon.co.uk/london/henry- viiis-wine-cellar...](http://stuffaboutlondon.co.uk/london/henry-viiis-wine- cellar/)

</comment><comment><USER12> I wonder if the "graffiti artist" Tom Porter and the recorded stonemason Thomas Parker, are actually the same person. A cockney accent interacting with an RP ear would make Porter and Parker quite similar. Name misspellings of labourers were likely very common before mass-education was introduced in late XIX century.

<comment><USER13> >A cockney accent interacting with an RP ear would make Porter and Parker quite similar

Not really? The first vowel and third consonant are different in both dialects. (Note that while the 't' in Porter is subject to t-glottalization, the 'k' in Parker isn't.)

<comment><USER12> I'm sure that 1) modern inflections were exactly the same 170 years ago, and 2) builders of all ages are extremely precise and well-educated writers that would never mix up their letters.

I mean, even RP was barely formalized at that point...

<comment> barry-cotter RP was in the process of being formalized at that point. It was a BBC project (I exaggerate slightly)[1]. The Queen's accent used to be distinctly non Received Pronunciation if you listen to early twentieth century recordings.

Stone Masons would almost universally have been literate because you need to engrave things. Half assed graffiti could be someone who was less a skilled tradesman than a member of the guild but guild members would have been expected to be able to read the Bible at least. Knowing how to spell your own name is not a big thing if you can read the KJV. And t->k is not a sound shift observed in historical language changes.

[1] RP probably received its greatest impetus, however, when it was selected in 1922 by the BBC Advisory Committee on Spoken English as a broadcasting standard – hence the origins of the term BBC English. The Committee believed Standard English, spoken with an RP accent, would be the most widely understood variety of English, both here in the UK and overseas. Members of the committee were also conscious that choosing a regional accent might run the risk of alienating some listeners.

[https://www.bl.uk/british-accents-and- dialects/articles/rece...](https://www.bl.uk/british-accents-and- dialects/articles/received-pronunciation)

<comment><USER12> _> RP was in the process of being formalized at that point. It was a BBC project_

The first record of the term is from 1818 and the second decades later, according to wikipedia, hence why I said "barely formalized". A concept of upper-class English definitely existed, but it was certainly not as precise as what we now know as RP, nor did it match modern RP - it was just in the same ballpark, so to speak.

 _> Knowing how to spell your own name is not a big thing if you can read the KJV._

Most labourers today can read much more than the KJV (and probably in a one- off exam, I expect people were not re-tested every other week...) and still mispellings are routine.

There are also 15 years between inscription and official recording, and changing name in the UK has always been extremely easy, so there is also the chance that Tom Porter might have tweaked his name to sound different after 15 years around the upper classes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Most remarkable: "The bulb that still worked after 70 years" \- "A light switch - probably installed in the 1950s - illuminated a large Osram bulb marked 'HM Government Property'."

<comment><USER15> Yes there is a lightbulb conspiracy among producers that deliberately and jointly shortened the life span of their products in order to ramp up sales.

<comment><USER16> There's some truth to the fact that lightbulbs don't last as long as they used to; but there's a lot to unpick here.

First: This bulb was not turned on, and a light-bulb in storage does not degrade, there's no oxidisation happening inside the bulb itself.

Second: heavy filaments consume more power to emit light, and a heavy filament is the requirement to have a long-lived bulb

Third: Even with a heavy filament, bulbs will dim in their light output with years of use. The longest running light bulb in the world (101 powered on years if I'm not mistaken) is less bright than a candle, although originally it was about as bright as a 40w bulb.

More information on that bulb: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centennial_Light)

<comment><USER17> > and a light-bulb in storage does not degrade

Depends on the quality of the seal and how well it was evacuated. Older bulbs tend to be higher quality, thicker glass, much more material around the seal (the spot where the wires cross through from inside the bulb to outside).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> My honest first question when I read this is: Isn't knowing about every single passage and doorway absolutely critical to security in a facility where high risk persons work?

It seems absolutely crazy to me to think that, as a US comparison, they would let the President go anywhere that might have passages the Secret Service is unaware of.

<comment><USER19> This is a building where people are literally employed to walk the halls so that if there is a fire, it will be noticed in time to save the building.

This is also a building where Parliament can be shut down for a day because a pipe burst and flooded the chambers where they deliberate. (Happened about a year ago during Brexit deliberations.)

This is also a building where they know that they need to spend billions on renovations but can't.

On the flip side, this also has one of the most impressive remaining medieval roofs in existence. Contains the lobby that gave us the word "lobbying". And contains more history than any building that you can find in the USA.

If ever you go to London, get a tour of it. Seriously.

<comment><USER20> >This is also a building where they know that they need to spend billions on renovations but can't.

Second line of the article: "Historians working on the renovation of the House of Commons found the lost 360-year-old passageway, hidden in a secret chamber."

Planning permission has been filed for the first phase of works, not actually on the Palace of Westminster but on the other side of Portcullis House, to renovate those buildings so that everyone can move there for the years it will take to renovate.

<comment><USER19> Yes, work is being prepared. And yet, work was put off for decades and now work on the building is still going to be delayed for years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I wonder how much history would be lost to us if people didn't write stuff on walls. :D

<comment><USER22> I recall reading a hand-wringing article about a canyon with a lot of ancient Native American graffiti carved on the walls, and how it was in a state of crisis because modern American teenagers kept carving their own graffiti on the walls.

I don't really see how we can defend the idea that the ancient graffiti is historically valuable and it's a good thing it was left there, but the modern graffiti is a menace that needs to be stamped out.

<comment><USER23> You might as well ask why ancient cesspools are historically valuable and best left alone for archaeologists to work on, while we still clean garbage off the streets.

It's because they're _old_ and _rare_. A pile of modern garbage? Not interesting. A pile of Roman garbage? That's an archaeological site.

<comment><USER24> Obviously these conversations are from the perspective of future archaeologists

<comment><USER25> If we didn't clean up the garbage and prevent the graffiti, the ancient historical garbage and graffiti wouldn't be rare, so it would be much more boring to future archæologists!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I wonder if the file format they use to store the digitised plans will still be readable 300 years from now.

<comment><USER27> The UK does have some experience with that gang aft agley: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Can someone please mark that hidden passageway on this plan?

[http://images.adsttc.com/media/images/5763/6e3a/e58e/ce0d/87...](http://images.adsttc.com/media/images/5763/6e3a/e58e/ce0d/8700/0050/newsletter/IMG_016.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER29> It's not every day that you see a news article reference dendrochronology

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology)

</comment><comment><USER30> I guess these things get lost overtime if there is no system of documenting what happened and is happening with any building over a long period of time?

A nice startup idea would be to create a system/website/app that documents what happens to any building over time including all maintenance and future plans!

City councils have something like this but I imagine it is pretty simple and does not capture a lot.

<comment><USER31> In some ways the app is easy. Capturing what happens is not, especially if there's no immediate incentive to do so. And writing an app in 2020 doesn't tell you want happened in 1660. Then you have to cope with app longevity; most apps deployed in 2020 will be dead by 2030 while the Houses of Parliament will still be there (unless they burn down due to ongoing fire code issues)

<comment><USER30> Hence having "system/website/app". The system is there to conserve everything and hopefully it will transcend technologies and be easy to migrate the data to whatever comes next.

<comment><USER32> We have legislation on vellum going back centuries; it's transcended technology and successfully been copied (I wouldn't say actually 'migrated') to other papers and the gov.uk website.

Which is why GP talks about _incentive_. What technology is your "system/website/app" going to use? Who's incentivised to update it? Who migrates to something else when you abandon it? How much does all this cost compared to non-digital records, which have almost certainly been kept, but some lost due to a lack of _incentive_ to keep them up to date and safe?

<comment><USER33> Since 2016, UK laws have not been recorded on vellum anymore [0]

[0]: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/12149181/Thousand- year...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/12149181/Thousand-year-old- tradition-of-printing-Britains-laws-on-vellum-has-been-scrapped-to-save- just-80000.html)

<comment><USER12> From the government that destroyed all Windrush records, comes another shocking tale of incompetence with malicious undertones.

Laws are written down to make them as permanently-accessible as possible, which acts as defense against capricious rulers. Anything that makes them less permanent is a small blow to the rights of everyday people.

<comment><USER34> I would argue that a law that is so seldemly referenced that all copies are lost ceased to be valid.

But I understand that the British system isn't built that way and instead of creating a consolidated "constitution" rather enjoy the fun of a Speaker citing some old precedent, which nobody can know about. True excitement.

<comment><USER35> To which precedent to you refer? Most are catalogued in Erskine May.

<comment><USER34> It seems many people were quite surprised about Bercow taking precedent from 1604, which seems to be from Erksine May.

This precedent certainly doesn't come from vellum, which GP misses.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics- parliaments-46810616](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics- parliaments-46810616)

<comment><USER32> You seem to have confused a couple of things - or else posted the wrong link.

The 'precedent from 1604' was that parliament couldn't be asked to vote twice on the same matter in the same sitting; but that isn't archaic and disused, it's common practice and Bercow (and other members) quoted numerous occasions on which speakers had disallowed votes on its basis.

Your link is about Bercows ' _un_ precedented ruling' giving MPs more control over the business of the HoC, as opposed to the Government.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> British are known for building many escape routes e.g. The road in 1942 as an evacuation route in preparation for a possible Japanese invasion of South India. With a maximum elevation of 2,480 meters (8,140 ft) just south of Vandaravu Peak, it was among the highest roads in India, south of the Himalayas, prior to its closure in 1990 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal%E2%80%93Munnar_Road](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodaikanal%E2%80%93Munnar_Road)

</comment><comment><USER37> The American version might be the long-hidden Senate Bathtubs: [https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/senate- bathtubs](https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/senate-bathtubs)

</comment><comment><USER38> The tunnel had electric lights? So.. lost in the sense that within the last seventy years somebody forgot, not lost for 170 years.

</comment><comment><USER39> Reminds me of the castle in Gormenghast

</comment><comment><USER40> There's the plot for National Treasure 3 and 4z

</comment><comment> jerome-jh So the treasure is a light bulb? Pretty boring.

<comment><USER41> Any hoard of gold and jewels would have been pilfered by the politicians years ago.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> _Orrrrrrrrrder!_ (While I go "inspect" the jewels.)

(Too bad, no more Bercow in the HoC; he'll have to say it in lecture halls from now on. :')

</comment><comment><USER43> Three things intrigue me about this:

1) why did they release this today? They've had time to clean it (that door is spotless on the inside), and to wire in electrics [or they were there and this is a fraud] -- so why today, what's happening that they're keeping out of the news ... (it happens, witness Boris's "bus collection" story).

2) who in this day and age installs brass light switches, where did they even buy that switch this week (presumably this week, or how long have they been sitting on it)?

3) does Parliament really need it's own locksmith, or do they mean they booked their regular locksmith to come?

Anyway, nice little puff piece.

</comment><comment><USER44> How did they just so happen to have the key to a hidden door that hadn't been opened in 68 years that they didn't even know existed?

<comment><USER45> The locksmith got the door open. It doesn't say he had the key.

<comment><USER46> Nope, but the video doesn't mention how they acquired the key either, they just demonstrate how it opens. I'll be honest and say that I didn't read very far into the article either and just skimmed it while listening to the video.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I can almost imagine Boris Johnson pushing everybody aside whilst approaching the tiny door and screaming: "Let me through,let me through! The gold is all mine,the gold is all mine!" Obviously all this happening while Patel smirking in the shadows knowing too well that the gold was stolen by Cameron ages ago.</comment>


Writing Systems by Language - <AUTHOR> https://www.omniglot.com/writing/langalph.htm <comment><USER2> Thanks for this. I'd not come across that site before. Lots of interesting stuff. I've added it to my bookmarks for future reference.

[Tell whoever designed it though that the 1990s ended a while back!]</comment>


Grumpy Cat wins payout in copyright lawsuit - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42808521 <comment><USER2> When Keyboard Cat became a thing, I tried making some t-shirts on Teespring or something of the sort. Got a cease-and-desist very quickly.

That's when I learned that behind the facade of cute internet cats and memes hides the cold reality of copyright law.

<comment><USER3> The cold reality of copyright law is having a chilling effect, causing me to not share content for fear of being sued.

Case in point: bilingual songs.

 _all of the italic items are illegal_

I go to a prayer room in Taiwan, and the musicians there have _translated_ many famous Christian songs into Chinese. I got their lyrics as PDFs and converted those to TXT so I can use it with my [http://pingtype.github.io](http://pingtype.github.io) translator app.

They stream their 2-hour sets on YouTube and Facebook. I _downloaded_ those and cut out the MP3s. I want to combine the audio with the lyrics to make lyrics videos to _put on YouTube_ (I already made some, actually, and a few more that I didn't upload).

I _got the lyrics_ from someone in another prayer room in another city, followed by a message saying basically "Oh no! I shouldn't have sent it to you! It's copyright and we don't have the license to share those songs so don't ever share this to anybody!" The reason is that the original English author didn't authorise the translation, so what they're doing is breaking copyright and they're afraid that if they become famous, they'll get caught.

I've procrastinated uploading more lyrics to Pingtype because of these issues. Meanwhile I use my personal copy in church, and it's great to sing along with everyone else and learn Chinese while doing so.

I tried contacting CCLI to get a license from the original authors of the songs, but they don't operate in Taiwan. I'm seriously considering just posting my painstakingly-clipped MP3s and the lyrics files on some pirate sites and letting the Internet do what it does best.

<comment><USER4> The whole thing where people insist on copyright for worship songs has bothered me for years. I understand that composers and artists need to get paid, and I'm certainly fine with enforcing copyright for _recordings_ , but the whole idea behind this particular style of worship music is that the songs are easy to memorize and teach orally. It's one thing if you're, say, dc Talk and people learn your lyrics because they're listening to your albums a lot, it's quite another if you're, say, Hillsong and you go out of your way to write melodies and lyrics are easily learnable, and then you (or your agent, I guess) says that you may not distribute written copies of the lyrics.

I've sort of wondered whether writing a bunch of Creative Commons-licensed worship music and trying to make it popular would be a good way to solve this problem.

<comment><USER5> Fortunately, the only worship songs I've ever really enjoyed were out of copyright by at least 200 years, and typically sung in Latin. ;-)

But interestingly, people have talked about creating public domain or free use literature for live music performance. A friend of mine tried to do this. He had the idea to create his own book of tunes (it helps that he's a composer with a music theory degree) so he could book a band into venues that didn't have ASCAP/BMI licenses. This was in the jazz genre, rather than worship music. I'm a jazz musician.

He told me that despite being completely above board, the venues still received a threatening visit from the performance rights organizations, and were talked out of hosting live music.

<comment><USER6> I don't wholly disagree with you on the Latin. But indeed everything the Wesleys did is long out of copyright; the American Sacred Harp and Southern Harmony hymns are long out of copyright.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > In 2013 Grenade Beverage, owned by father and son Nick and Paul Sandford, > struck a $150,000 deal to market iced coffee beverages with the cat's scowl > on its packaging.

I want an article on how the cat's owner convinced someone to license the cats image for $150K, let alone just for one line of beer. That's insane.

<comment><USER8> It's not that hard to fathom. Literally tens of millions of people know the name Grumpy Cat. Maybe 1% of that number know about Grenade Beverage.

<comment><USER9> In 2009, I bought a bottle of Barack Obama hot sauce I discovered at the local grocery store, just for the sheer novelty of it. I have no idea if it's any good, as I never opened it. I keep it as a memento.

Grumpy Cat is a big enough phenomenon that they could probably make back the fee just on purchases like that. Let alone people who would actually drink the stuff.

<comment><USER10> It's surprising how throwing a random name on something will make you want to buy it. A local pub near my office sells Trooper, a type of ale "created' by Iron Maiden, and the novelty of it seems to result in most people trying at least a pint of it.

For those that are interested, it's alright, but not my favourite. I'd recommend trying it if you get a chance.

<comment><USER11> When I was in Germany, I bought a bottle of Gorbatschow vodka to bring home.

I thought the name was something to do with Mikhail Gorbachev, but it isn't - the brand has been produced in Berlin since 1921 after its founder Leo Gorbatschow left Russia during the October Revolution (thanks, wikipedia).

Fairly decent vodka for the price though; would drink again, but since Stolichnaya and bisongrass vodka are also much cheaper in Germany than the UK they're a better candidate for limited luggage space.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> For those interested in getting in on the game, you should checkout The Handbook [1], it's a must-read.

[1] [http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/152912631875/breed-and- pu...](http://liartownusa.tumblr.com/post/152912631875/breed-and-publicize- your-own-congenitally-deformed)

</comment><comment><USER13> The verdict seems wrong. You can't copyright a cat. Per the constitution only "works" are copywritable. So you can copyright a photo of the cat. Or in this case a sketch of a cat. But unless the owners of the cat also drew the logo they shouldn't have a copyright claim on it.

<comment><USER14> Yes, the drawn graphic of the cat is exactly what the defendent infringed on. See the similarity on page 4 of [http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/grumpy-c...](http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/grumpy- cat-complaint/2720/) between the second image and the image used on the coffee.

<comment><USER15> I feel like this is bullshit. It's very clear that the photo is inspired by the cat, not the photo of the cat. There are many different details between the two images to the point that it is a totally different photo of the cat ( see ear position,left eye ..)

<comment><USER16> Grumpy Cat is a brand, not a logo.

This is no different to protecting a business name.

I'm bemused that critics of copyright believe that IP Protection is Evil, but have no problem understanding that they're not going to be able to call their startup "Microsoft", "Google", or "Apple" \- because that would be an obvious and ridiculous branding infringement.

But copyright of a single work isn't a brand? In a practical sense it is, because the whole point of IP is that it has market value - and brands, individual works, band and artist names, logos, and the rest, all generate income for creators.

(Or more often for middle men and managers - but that's a different problem, and one that's hardly going to be solved by eliminating IP.)

<comment><USER17> Branding is in the realm of trademark, not copyright. This was a copyright lawsuit, so branding has nothing to do with it.

If Disney finally loses copyright of Steamboat Willie, you will still not be able to use the trademarked Disney Ears. (The one that's three circles.)

<comment><USER18> This was a copyright, trademark, and breach of contract lawsuit, not only a copyright lawsuit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I vaguely remember reading that Tardar Sauce is a retcon of the cat's real name.

<comment><USER20> I hadn't come across this words before.

[ret-kon] noun a subsequent revision of an established story in film, TV, video games, or comics.

<comment><USER21> And the possibly illuminating etymology: _Ret_ roactive _Con_ tinuity.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> _Grumpy Cat Limited_

I genuinely don't know if I'm impressed or incredibly depressed that the owners of a disgruntled looking cat are turning the facade of a discontented feline into a company. Snarky types would point at this and scream "LATE STAGE CAPITALISM" or some such....

but...it's weird, to me.

<comment><USER23> I understand, but they own the cat, and it has a commercial appeal, the proof being that people sold t-shirts with it's face on it. this is in no way fair use. this is just to regulate proven commercial worth, it's no different then Disney charging to print pictures of their star wars birds with teeth things on t shirts, etc. you find something. you own it. it has commercial appeal that is not against ethical free uses. you make money

<comment><USER22> Oh no, I don't object to anything you're saying--I literally have no objection on the merits of the lawsuit.

It's just...we've made it to the point of profiting off of a cat. For looking humorously pissed off by cat standards. The year she (she? I think?) came to sxsw and I saw the lines of people spilling out onto the street for people to take a selfie with said cat, I was bewildered (and also slightly disgusted, pondering how anxious and probably stressed out/tired the cat must have been to be handled and fondled all day long so her keepers could pocket some coin and notoriety)

Maybe I'm just getting old and this sort of thing doesn't impress me; not the target demographic. Not here to rain on the parade, just...the whole phenomenon is something to behold.

<comment><USER20> Grumpy Cat arguably has more substance than, say, Coca Cola, which is little more than a _brand_ \+ sugar + water + CO2.

Or that other brand which is little more than "three stripes".

<comment><USER22> That seems...highly subjective but I get your point. It's similar to how my reaction was when everyone lost their minds over the Kylie Jenner Pepsi commercial.

I think it was something to the effect of: "You're getting bent out of shape because a company that makes money selling sugar water had a lukewarm message about protest movements? It's PEPSI, not Sesame Street".

<comment><USER24> Unless I'm misusing the term, I think this is a good example of the phrase "the optics of a situation".

<comment><USER22> Yeah I think I'm going to stand by my "It's Pepsi Cola, not Sesame Street". Do the optics look bad? Oh well?? Why is anyone looking for positive optics coming from an advertisement paid for by billionaires featuring the sibling and daughter of millionaires on a commercial that cashes in on the features and 'optics' of a group of people that are one astronomical unit away from _being_ millionaires themselves?

It's Pepsi. Not Sesame Street. If you looked at that commercial expecting a message full of deep moral conviction on the state of affairs that exists in the space between the citizenry and the constabulary, you got played, son.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> You may also be interested in the _Monkey Selfie_ case: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16228390](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16228390)

</comment><comment><USER26> Huh. When reading the headline, I thought "Grumpy Cat" was the name of a company, because, you know, cats do not win many law suits. That was actually what made me read the article, because I thought that "Grumpy Cat" was an odd name for a company.

It seem a little childish to think that the face of a cat is subject to copyright.

<comment><USER27> Well, it is the name of a company. It's just a company holding the rights to the face of the cat. [https://www.grumpycats.com/](https://www.grumpycats.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Grumpy cat generates and sustains jobs: photographer, the community manager, agent, advertisers, the t-shirt people, and an army of people working in the various products going from books to calendars, the movie cast... you get it.

It also helps people release stress, which improves their immune response.

Grumpy cat is a force for good.

</comment><comment><USER29> More likely that someone is going bankrupt than someone is getting paid.

</comment><comment><USER30> Good.</comment>


Ask HN: where do you find interesting books to read? - <AUTHOR> The two best books I read this year are
- Impro (1987), by Keith Johnstone, about the art of improvisation and Mask techniques, and how relations between people can help create a narrative and are fascinating to watch
- The Inner Game of Tennis (1997), by W. Timothy Gallwey, which doesn't talk much about tennis and a lot about how to "let go" in order to let your true self take control (playing tennis with the right side of the brain, if you will)
But for the life of me I can't remember where I first heard about those books (or others), and so I rely mostly on chance (and Amazon ratings, which are not always reliable).
What curated lists of books do you use, or mailing lists you're currently subscribed to? <comment><USER2> I use Google.

[https://www.google.com/&q=ask+hn+books+site:news.ycombin...](https://www.google.com/&q=ask+hn+books+site:news.ycombinator.com)

This question gets asked every couple months on HN, so check out the previous threads. Also, the above search will give you some good book recommendations on a variety of topics.

That would be my starting point. (Actually it wouldn't, I'm more into military history books, but...)

</comment><comment><USER3> Go on Amazon and look at the "Best sellers" as that might give you an idea of what people are reading. However seeing individual reviews of each book may be your best bet as that gives you the through insight about the material.

</comment><comment><USER4> I ask my friends what they are reading. If I meet someone interesting, I ask them what they are currently reading, or have read and liked. This also leads to many fun discussions about books.

</comment><comment><USER5> I preferred amazon.com.....</comment>


Ask HN: Is anyone actually using Windows Subsystem for Linux? - <AUTHOR> Trying to understand if this is actually a usable solution, and what scenarios?  My main scenarios are nodejs / react / webpack and Rails / Postgres.
I have a 2014 MBP and thinking of upgrading to a windows laptop (since 2016 MBP dropped the escape key), but being able to do rails development easily is a requirement.  I used to use an Ubuntu VM with Virtual Box and VIM / SSH on a previous windows box, but I find that clunky compared to Visual Studio Code in my MBP.
So far, both Rails and Webpack have broken in subtly weird ways every time I've tried.  I was able to get my rails app working by installing Postgres and Elasticsearch on windows, and connecting.  But it was slow and occasionally had weird issues.
Would love to know what others are doing here. <comment><USER2> Not mature yet.

\- You actually need a workaround to listen to an address in node - os.networkInterfaces() returns an error: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/37497914/node-http- server...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/37497914/node-http-server-not- working-on-windows-10-ubuntu-bash)

\- You cannot run Docker (you can run it on Windows and use the docker client from the subsystem though)

\- You cannot use Tensorflow with a GPU (many people keep their Windows install to use the GPU drivers)

\- You need workarounds to use MongoDB: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38798593/windows-10-linux...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/38798593/windows-10-linux- subsystem-how-to-install-mongodb)

\- There are a lot of issues: [https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues](https://github.com/Microsoft/BashOnWindows/issues)

If you're really using your machine for work, you want a stable system, not a non-reproducible mess of workarounds.

</comment><comment><USER3> I use it for Ruby at this point. Python and Node install and play well enough on Windows that I generally use them directly in Windows. Ruby on the other hand I primarily use for GitHub Pages/Jekyll work, and it is much easier to install and work with from the Bash on Ubuntu on Windows shell than directly in Windows.

The Windows Subsystem for Linux is a much nicer alternative to a full VM and working directly from a folder from an NTFS drive is nearly seamless working with the same files in VS Code (in Bash cd to a /mnt/c/users/... or /mnt/d/repos/... folder), with the exception that watch support (such as jekyll serve --watch) isn't great but is improving.

(A welcome surprise to me is how fast my jekyll builds have been in this configuration, especially comparing to the native Windows installs I used to try to use.)

</comment><comment><USER4> Not really what you are after but the first thing I do with a windows machine is to install cygwin to make it usable. It sports a nice terminal and then you can ssh from it.

Also I've developed a win32 program on windows and since I'm used to the UNIX way of doing things.

So why not. I wouldn't use it for a server if I've needed node.js I'd spin up an additional VPS.</comment>


German newspaper to publish Nazi SS Heinrich Himmler's  letters, notes, photos - <AUTHOR> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/german-newspaper-publish-nazi-ss-leader-heinrich-himmler-153709004.html

<comment><USER2> I find everything about Nazis to be fascinating. As someone who has Jewish ethnicity, I certainly don't endorse them (my grandfather's family actually fled Europe), but fascinating nonetheless.</comment>


Ask HN: Why is Apple still releasing 16 GB phones? - <AUTHOR> Is it really just cost of components? Especially when you can now record in 4k. It defies all of my current logic. Would love to hear some additional theories. <comment><USER2> Contextual pricing perhaps? Kind of akin to this:

[http://www.marketingwords.com/blog/psychology-pricing- produc...](http://www.marketingwords.com/blog/psychology-pricing-products- services/)

Snippet from the classic experiment: For instance, a small popcorn would be $3.50. A medium-sized bucket of popcorn would be $7.50 and a large would cost $8.00. The mindset here is that "for only 50 cents more" you can get a much larger portion of popcorn. The same is true for fountain drinks at gas stations. Small = $.99. Medium = $1.49. Large = $1.59. Which sells more? Almost always the large for "just 10 cents more."

<comment><USER3> Also called framing - [http://whywereason.com/2011/10/14/the-price-of-framing- ancho...](http://whywereason.com/2011/10/14/the-price-of-framing-anchoring/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Because people still buy them. It's that simple.

For a parent buying for a smaller kid, a business/organization buying for its employees, or a senior citizen who just runs a few apps, it's ok.

It's obviously not for people wanting to record videos in 4K (or record videos in general -- lots of older people only record a few minutes or so a year, some grandchild's birthday or such).

If you do that a lot, you get a higher end model.

<comment><USER3> I disagree.

If entry level were 32 GB, many people would buy that.

However, anyone who's owned an iPhone before knows that 16 GB is far too little to hold even a small collection of songs, photos, apps, etc. By removing the 32 GB model and making entry level 16 GB, they cause most of us to bump up to the 64 GB instead --> $$$.

<comment><USER5> I have what I'd call a considerable, varied and growing collection of apps, plus many albums and a full photostream on 16GB. I only run out of space when I have a lot of photos at the same time as a silently downloaded update. Both are easily solved within 10 minutes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I just had a look at the storage on my iPhone and saw I had used 4.9 GB on a 64 GB phone. I'm sure that Apple has data showing that this type of usage makes up a decent percentage of users.

Not sure why I use so little. I take photos but generally use streaming music services rather that have a large collection of mp3s. Also I find the screen too small to watch movies.

<comment><USER7> I agree. The average use case for a phone does not involve shooting a movie and such does not need 4TB space on it. It's ridiculous that people are complaining that apple makes a product that is too small for their use case.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> In recent years, Apple doubled iPhone storage levels while keeping prices the same: the middle tier 32gb became 64, and the high end 64gb tier became 128 -- however, the 16gb remained untouched. There is no longer a 32gb offering. I think this is telling.

If Apple had doubled the 16gb to 32, then many of the prior middle tier purchasers would now be drawn to Apple's cheapest tier, and Apple would lose that revenue, $100 per unit. At the same time, those that feel stifled by the 16 have more incentive to upgrade to the 64, at the same price as the prior 32.

Why is this still the case, years later? I think the issue is that 32gb remains the sweetspot for more than half of the potential customers, and if they offered it, their low end product will cannibalize their mid tier sales and cost them billions.

</comment><comment><USER9> It lets Apple run ads that say "iPhone 6S: starting at $649."

</comment><comment><USER10> There's a lot of people for whom 16GB is sufficient.

</comment><comment><USER11> Because the iPhone is sold worldwide, and this makes it more affordable for the middle class of India, China, and other developing nations

<comment><USER12> Indian here. The middle class sticks with Moto E/G here. The upper middle class goes with an iPhone 4S/5S and even Nexus and OnePlus One.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's a pushed to get more users to rely on iCloud. This still sucks though because you can't store apps in the cloud and it nice to have music locally (though Apple Music seems to cache) when riding on the subway / dealing with AT&Ts poor connections.

</comment><comment><USER14> A lot of consumers have no idea how much storage is required per picture or per minute of video. So they just see the price tag and buy the cheapest to get admitted to the iClub.

It happens all the time at parties. People try to take a photo, there is no room and they ask "What's wrong?". Their eyes glaze over when I try to explain how all those pix on their phone are using up the storage. Then they suggest deleting a couple SMS messages .... as if :-(

</comment><comment><USER15> Another reason: Because those chips are still cheap and being made. I'm sure if 8GB would work with iOs they'd sell those too. But then again I'm not a phone manufacturer, that's just an educated guess.

</comment><comment><USER16> It may exist only to push the consumer to a higher price. 16GB is a low- friction pain point that pushes many people into to an option with more profitable margins for Apple.

</comment><comment><USER17> I just bought an 8gb Android phone. It does have a microSD port, but I don't expect I'll need to use it.

Maybe some people use phones differently than you.

</comment><comment><USER18> businesses might not want their employees putting 125gb of music or photos or games on the phones they provide.

</comment><comment><USER19> Obviously people still buy them, otherwise they wouldn't continue to sell them.

</comment><comment><USER20> opposite of the anchor price, i guess?

</comment><comment><USER21> get users addicted; when it's too painful you buy a bigger more expensive phone.

</comment><comment><USER22> i think @tankerdude has it right...easy $100</comment>


AT&T defends misleading "5G" network icons on 4G phones - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/01/att-defends-misleading-5g-network-icons-on-4g-phones/?comments=1 <comment><USER2> "I love the fact that we broke our industry's narrative"

That's about what I'd expect. Being proud of lying seems totally in character for AT&T.</comment>


Why productive people get up insanely early - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcompany.com/3013856/how-to-be-a-success-at-everything/why-productive-people-get-up-insanely-early <comment><USER2> I'm know we're all searching for the next great "hack" to make us more productive, but frankly this article is an example of how not to go about it.

Firstly, the title seems to suggest _most_ productive people get up _insanely_ early. Yet, the only example in it of someone who does that is, well, the author.

Then of course there's the typically prescriptive and reductive approach that takes anecdotal or highly controlled examples and presents them as almost a gospel.

I personally know more productive people who _don 't_ get up insanely early, than otherwise. Maybe I should tell them to change their habits. Plus, there's more and more research that says the "larks" and "owls" among us may be wired differently in their brains:

\- [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24292-first- physical-e...](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24292-first-physical- evidence-of-why-youre-an-owl-or-a-lark.html)

\- [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623150621.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090623150621.htm)

To cut it short, sure, getting up early is good provided you can pull it off. But its equally possible you may end up being less productive merely trying to screw around with your existing sleep patterns and daily schedules.

<comment><USER3> Agree with your point.

"but frankly this article is an example of"

Articles like this just end up being a forum for discussion on a particular topic that is of interest [1].

A story or blog post is put on HN and people feast on it giving their own personal experience or taking issue with the title's claim and how it might be to broad, downright wrong or otherwise screwed up.

The same themes come up over and over again. I wonder why there just isn't a weekly feature giving people the opportunity to post their own latest, um, "research" into what they do to stay productive. Like a "Tell HN".

[1] Popularity determined by time of day posted, who is writing, where it was written, the topic and how polarizing their thoughts are. More absolute tends to mean more activity everything else being equal. (Have I missed anything?)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is a common theme around here lately: having time to ourselves to work/think without incoming needs or expectations from others.

A bunch of people have solutions, from work spaces with isolation rooms, like the nap rooms at the huffington post, to going on a cruise to do your best development.

It all seems to me to point to one major thing, we are overburdening ourselves. Most of this overburdening is by choice because we all _need_ to be productive, otherwise we will not feel like we are changing the world. Founders are reporting being depressed and having anxiety issues. As a result we are all grasping for whatever we can to unburden ourselves while at the same time maintaining productivity. To me these things are impossible to an extent. Yes there are little hacks here and there and efficiencies can be gained but on the whole you either need to be able to deal with a shitload of stress, or figure out how to remove things from your plate.

I am guessing that there will be a mass tipping point for the entrepreneur/startup community where a significant number of people are having panic attacks and massive anxiety disorders because we just really all can't be Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Elon Musk no matter how many hours we put in on the cruise ship at 4 AM.

Either that or everyone will start signing up for intensive training for how to deal with high stress environments.

<comment><USER3> "Most of this overburdening is by choice because we all need to be productive, otherwise we will not feel like we are changing the world. Founders are reporting being depressed and having anxiety issues."

Grumpy gramps here.

Would like to point out that back in the day this was known as "keeping up with the Jones".

And had nothing to do with changing the world.

Just keeping up with the Joneses.

The big difference is way back you weren't really aware of the things that other people were doing other than your neighbors, some relatives, or people who hit it big enough to make it into the press. When I was growing up you heard about 1 billionaire, Howard Hughes. That was pretty much it. [1] Every now and then the local big city paper would run a story on a businessman that had done particular well.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses)

[1] Forgetting inflation and magic numbers ("1 billion") the press really didn't report on business people. And corporate execs made way less than they do today (even accounting for inflation).

<comment><USER4> "Would like to point out that back in the day this was known as "keeping up with the Jones"...And had nothing to do with changing the world."

To me "Keeping up with the Joneses" always had a clear material connotation eg: more money, bigger house, better car etc... I drew the distinction about changing the world because I think that is the difference between generations.

I completely agree that this generation does the same peer comparisons, it's just that our metric is influence and "disrupting" the status quo rather than accumulation of wealth (though its often tough to divorce those things).

<comment><USER3> "I completely agree that this generation does the same peer comparisons, it's just that our metric is influence and "disrupting" the status quo rather than accumulation of wealth (though its often tough to divorce those things)."

Sure but is that the case because you all actually organically think that way or because the peer group exhibits those tendencies and make you think that way? Further perhaps you (I mean the group not the individual where ymmv) grew up with more so they aren't as hungry or needing material goods?

When we were growing up with got like 2 toys per year. Birthday and holiday. Or close to it. And we were middle class not poor. And there weren't many toys to begin with. Parents in general were more strict and didn't spoil kids. And you didn't go out to eat practically ever (weren't that many restaurants like today) and tv was black and white and not much entertainment. So there weren't as many distractions. So money was a way to have more fun. Oh and another thing was you needed money because you were raised where your parents controlled everything and weren't your friend or someone you would hang with.

Want to make it clear that of course there were individual exceptions to anything that I've said above. But things were different and that difference meant you ended up having different needs and values.

When I was a kid my dad payed for 1/2 of the money to buy me a tty that I could use to dial up to the time share. The fact that he even agreed to do that was a big deal. I had to work and make 1/2 the money but felt lucky that he was willing to help me out. By comparison I just bought my daughter a macbook air and didn't even think twice about it. Even got her the extra memory and larger flash drive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> TL;DR - I got up early to beat depression, found I had loads of time to get work done uninterrupted.

I want to make two comments - firstly there is something very wrong with the business world when you have to avoid the 9-5 full of interruptions to get any work done. I know this from experience.

Secondly compare this to the Peter Higgs (of Bosun fame) saying he would never have got an academic post today because he would not be seen as productive enough - in other words he did not get up at 4 to do a days work before going and doing a days interruptions.

We are getting something terribly terribly wrong with our working days.

<comment><USER6> > _firstly there is something very wrong with the business world when you have > to avoid the 9-5 full of interruptions to get any work done. I know this > from experience._

If you are a low-level programmer or work for a very small startup yes, but at scale communication and coordination overhead is necessary and significant.

As a tech lead I am keenly aware of the tension between the fact that interruptions may shoot my technical work to hell, but if it helps 10 other people be twice as productive that day it might well be worth it to sacrifice my own productivity, especially if the interruption is of the "teach a man to fish" variety.

<comment><USER5> 9 times out of 10 interruptions that I remember had nothing to do with improving others productivity but getting around what can best be thought if as systemic pathologies - meetings to convince people who should have no power over the project the project was on track, discussing schedules and projections. Rarely were the right people involved.

So be glad your interruptions have a net value. Maybe my anecdata is untypical - It would be nice to think so.

<comment><USER6> This is a non-sequitur. Paraphrasing the thread:

OP says "there is something wrong with the business world where you have to avoid the interruptions of the 9-5 to get things done"

I reply "even if nothing is wrong, the needs of others can conflict with the need for focus"

Then you reply "but most interruptions are not necessary for anybody's productivity".

 _That has nothing to do with my point_. I'm not diagnosing the work world in general. I'm saying even if you fix all the problems, there will still necessarily be distractions in the 9-5 that an engineer might seek to avoid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I suspect that the causation is backwards here. Studies of highly driven people show that they tend to have naturally higher dopamine levels than less driven people (I'm grossly oversimplifying here, but anyway). In effect, they are on stimulants all the time - natural ones created by their own bodies. And that's going to create a correlation between productivity and early rising right there.

<comment><USER8> How do stimulants relate to rising early? If anything, they might relate to needing less sleep, but that still only means you get up early if you go to sleep early.

<comment><USER7> >they might relate to needing less sleep, but that still only means you get up early if you go to sleep early.

I think you might want to check your math there.

<comment><USER8> I did, it checks out.

<comment><USER7> No it doesn't. I don't want to be mean, but this is really basic addition. If you need less sleep, you can get up earlier without going to sleep earlier.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I rise late and I work late. If left to it my most productive time seems to be 6-11pm.

I've never really been that bothered by the 'distractions' of the 9-5 though. I've always worked in collaborative, open-plan spaces and I've never really seen the problem with them. If you need a bit of 'away time', put your headphones on for a while.

</comment><comment><USER10> Alternatively, staying up insanely late gets you the same interruption-free time. The number interruptions you'd get between 4-8AM is probably similar between 9PM-1AM

</comment><comment><USER11> The only problem with the 9-to-5 schedule is its adherents' insistence that it is the only valid lifestyle.

</comment><comment><USER12> There is one really good point in the post: expectations.

I am naturally an owl. I prefer staying up late, I love sitting in the dark at 2 or 3am. Have no problem if I have to do some extra work and stay up to 5am.

But it sucks that if I wake up at around noon, and start working at 3pm. At 5pm, when going for lunch, and the city is full of traffic jams, I think 'damn they all are going home and I just started'. It gets harder at winter because I live in north England so I hardly get any sun light. It's harder even more, because I live with my gf in a studio and sometimes wake her up at some random time by eating or typing.

So while I naturally enjoy sitting to late, I have to get up earlier because, well, I don't live in isolation.

</comment><comment><USER13> I guess programmers are never productive then.

<comment><USER14> FWIW: I am a programmer and (sometimes) an early riser

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm up since 5h00 and I produced nothing of value yet.

</comment><comment><USER16> As a lifelong night owl, I discovered when I could get to bed by 9:30 or 10, waking up at 3-4 am gave me easily the energy I'd normally have doing late night stuff after a long day.

For me it seems to have to do with being mentally rested, not much in the way of distractions, and making sure to make a list of a few things I could dive into without thought to get going. I wish I could do it every day, because I don't regret it when I do.

For anyone discounting this strategy without having tried it -- I get the studies about night owl vs larks. Try it yourself first to see how it works. Waking up early is the road less travelled, staying up late in a way is the default way of operating.

</comment><comment><USER17> Are there any reproducible studies proving highly productive people wake up early?

Or just anecdotes?

</comment><comment><USER18> er... what? all of the most productive people I know are terrible at timekeeping and sleeping at a reasonable time. the 'good' ones at timekeeping amongst them are routinely 15 minutes late, and they won't go to bed in general until past 12.

there may be some kind of sampling bias... my experience of people who do get in early to work hard - rather than stay late, with few exceptions (two otoh), is that they are not especially productive people anyway...

<comment><USER19> There was a saying, which goes something like "If you want something to be accomplished, give it to the busiest colleague."

Why is it so?

<comment><USER20> Social proof. Your busy colleague has already been vetted as "someone who gets things done" and therefore has been issued more work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I find that I get a similar result when I work from the home office even during business hours. Although distractions can be nice sometimes, during crunch time, I'd rather WFH to minimize them.

</comment><comment><USER22> I went a few months forcing myself to get up early. Though I got used to it being up at 6 and working by 7, I couldn't ignore the blanket of grogginess I felt all day..

</comment><comment><USER23> i see a lot of very good criticism here, but does noone bother the fact that op claims "productive people get up insanely early" and then continues with for me?

well i'm glad you found your optimal timeframe. good for you

</comment><comment><USER24> Productive people wake up whenever the hell they damn well please.

</comment><comment><USER25> Insert a few chunks of quiet time in your workday. Mission accomplished.

<comment><USER14> For many this is not an option: in crowded offices with no access control this is the exact problem.

I guess working extremely early and/or late is what some people fall back to after trying every other trick in the book (headset, ask people to stop interrupting when headset on, ask for a quiet ropm etc etc)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Use cases of Instant Messaging for business? - <AUTHOR> We're looking for other uses cases for a product we've built. We based our assumptions on initial false positive feedback, and now considering pivoting.
We've built Seat.im - a professional instant messaging platform for sales. It has really simple client on-boarding as it requires no software and no account registration - with just one click (i.e. in email signature) clients can start interacting with a sales person (IM, video call, screensharing).
Our initial assumption was that both salespeople and their customers want to accelerate communication when working together (email is slow). Initially salespeople we spoke to found it exciting and were happy to try it out, but when running trials we learned that speed of communication isn't a real problem they want to be solved, and immediacy or such availability can actually be harmful for their sales process (i.e. unfulfilled expectations of immediacy results in bad customer experience or inability to prioritize deals etc.).
Can you see other use cases for the product we've built? <comment><USER2> I like to contact with DM when I have an issue with something product/service I bought. I want someone to be there and I actually like when a real person answers and I get my problem fixes straight away.

However, I think there are many DM services out there. The pain for the company is then the cost associated to have someone there 24/7.

When I had a DM system setup for my own company it was a pain in the ass to stop whatever I was doing to answer my clients in real time. I wanted to help them, but it was a distraction.</comment>


Warning: Software Startups are Not as Easy as Everyone Says - <AUTHOR> http://www.softwarebyrob.com/2007/11/06/why-starting-a-software-company-is-not-as-easy-as-everyone-tells-you-and-why-facebook-apps-are-crap/ <comment><USER2> I think the biggest thing is that cheap != easy

Sure, you can write good software with a cheap Pc and entirely free software, and there may be very little equipment costs compared to other industries. But that doesnt make it EASY.

</comment><comment><USER3> I am going to be a complete fool and say the opposite. Starting up is easier than everyone says.

Reasons? The cost is really low. You don't have to quit your job. You don't have to invest a lot into your company. If things start to do well, you can afford to do both. What really is the cost? The cost is your time, and if it is something you enjoy, its a win-win situation. Am I defining a hobby? Sure, but starting up can be exactly that. There are advantages to quitting your job and investing every penny you can, but that isn't for everyone.

So starting up is really easy. Write some code, release a project. If it doesn't do well, it was fun. If it does do well, keep the ball rolling.

If you can't get anything started while you are working full time, I would suggest you will be unsuccessful if you quit your job too.

<comment><USER4> You left out the sentence that starts with "I learned on my own startup..." Why?

<comment><USER3> Can you rephrase that?

I don't know if you are curious or trying to make some sort of strawman argument.

If you are curious, I am sorry I can't spill many details. But I have done a startup and several projects in the past, and am currently involved in a startup.

If you are implying I don't know anything because I haven't done it myself...well I guess I answered that.

I also have quite a few friends who have done startups to pull some anecdotal evidence from.

<comment><USER4> A straw man is a proxy, a fake, a stand-in for the real thing. So to make a straw man argument, I have to distort something you've said so that it becomes easier to refute. Feel free to explain how I can do this when your post is reproduced verbatim above mine.

You meant _argumentum ad hominem_ (advanced by a loaded question, even!). Technically, it's not relevant to startups' degree of ease whether you've been successful as a founder or not, but it is valid for me to ask you to cite your evidence.

You claim to be an expert on startups based on evidence you can't reveal. That's a circular appeal to authority (yourself) established by an appeal to a higher power (all your friends' top-secret successes).

I don't want to be (too much of) a pompous ass here, but I get jumpy when people try to convince me of things that are both improbable and highly desirable.

<comment><USER3> No, the strawman you were presenting was that I had no idea about this topic because I had not experienced it myself. That is a fallacy, and it is untrue in this situation. I did not mean it was a loaded question, I wasn't sure whether you were being a jerk or not.

Clearly, you were trying to be a pompous ass, and are again with this second comment. I hardly claim to be an expert, I CLEARLY stated to have some anecdotal evidence. I was simply giving some comments based on my experiences, and whether you choose to believe me is your prerogative.

Lastly, how is it improbable that starting a startup is easy? Any software developer can write their own software in a short period of time, and try to start a business based on it.

<comment><USER5> mnemonicsloth, mrtron - are you two dating?

(serious question, you sound like a couple I know)

<comment><USER4> This is my first meeting with mrtron, so I don't think we're dating (unless you mean 'by LiveJournal standards', in which your guess would be as good as mine).

I'm engaged in the real world. We fight all the time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Saying something requires luck is not the same as saying it is hard. Few people seem to understand that.

<comment><USER7> Diligence is the mother of good luck. \- Ben Franklin

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> i get the feeling people are voting up by the title, not the actual article content.. seriously, this is entirely obvious and of digg caliber.. not what i expect from news.yc

<comment><USER9> Good writing creates value for the reader. This can be done not only by presenting an original insight, but by adding value to an existing insight. This can be done by

\- Putting an idea into context

\- Providing relevant facts and statistics

\- Pointing out the implications of an idea

\- Drawing new conclusions from an old idea. etc.

Even though the insight might not be 100% original, the author still managed to "say something worth saying about something worth saying something about." At least for me.

It was also exceptionally well-written.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Warning: the stove is HOT!

<comment><USER11> Warning: Contents of this cup are HOT!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why do you people up vote this stuff? This place is turning into planet of the obvious... do you really need to read a page of it's not easy?

pfff junk

<comment><USER13> The article's fault is not that the message itself is overtly obvious, it's that it neglects the more important question of: Why there will always be a large number of entrepreneurs in spite of the low success rates of starting a business and the enormous amount of work, dedication, and "luck" required to be immensely successful.

But that would be opening up an economic/philosophical can of worms that is neither here nor there.

<comment><USER14> > Why there will always be a large number of entrepreneurs in spite of the low > success rates

Visit Las Vegas or lotto ticket booth and chat to people... it will clear up a lot of things.

<comment><USER15> This isn't a very good comparison.

I applaud the fact that the post is advocating a bit of realism (something which is in short supply in the entrepreneurial world). I also don't deny that there is an element of luck in succeeding. But it's _not_ a total crapshoot. There is a lot more variance and room for planning in a business than there is sitting at a craps table.

I think on average people who at least try to start a company and work to build something are not comparable to people sitting on their asses pouring quarters into slots or lottery tickets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Successful (software) start-ups are unlikely. They require great aptitude (the possession of which is uncommon) and rarely fabulous luck. The likelihood of a start-up succeeding is the product of two unlikely circumstances.

So I suppose it is as easy as being exceptional and lucky.

Don't sell your house.

</comment><comment><USER17> The article is great. The only problem is that we hear the same story every hour or so. What some of us fail to realize is that most startups were not started as startups. As a matter of fact I would say that the majority of successful entrepreneurs did not start with the idea of owning/running a business. Usually engineers/hackers work on a app in their past time out of curiosity and build a product. The business or startup naturally follows.

<comment><USER18> i don't know what the hell you're talking about. Not started as startups? Most? Wow! You clearly need to do a bit more research.

<comment><USER17> Maybe if we skip the insult we can all come to an understanding. I do not think you deserve an explanation from me, but I will still give one for the intelligent and respectful others. Most successful companies today were started by engineers who were working on a product/service as a project. After realizing that they are sitting on something valuable (and most likely this happens by accident), they start to look into building a company around the product. Several people wake up and have the intention to start a business. I think that most people who want to start a business first then try to find a problem to tackle are the ones who need this sort of article. And they are also the ones who are more likely to Fail. I am not being rude it is just a fact.

<comment><USER11> I think you are wrong, although I don't think you deserved to be down-modded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I disliked this piece for a different reason: his attitude. No successful company was ever built by someone thinking as negatively as this guy.

Sure, someone who thinks that if he creates a new facebook widget he'll retire -- that guy may need to hear this. But wait, does he? He'll figure out the problem with that soon enough.

The rest of us ... do we need some smug guy telling us that the Plenty of Fish guy was just really lucky? I've read the Plenty of Fish story, and it sounded like there was a lot more than luck involved -- and that luck was the smallest component. Oh, and I've worked at other startups and know people who are quite rich because of them. It didn't take them five years and only luck. It took the right idea at the right time, and in some cases, multiple tries.

No, successful, wealth-generating sites aren't born every day.

But it's more possible to create one than this guy seems to think.

<comment><AUTHOR> Perhaps, but with every media source erring on the other side of the argument, this article is simply a reality check, and has to err on the side of negativity to get its point across.</comment></comment>


Violent Shell (CLI in a website) - <AUTHOR> http://violent.sh/ <comment><USER2> Is anyone maintaining an index of websites with CLIs? The topic deserves further study. Many of us have observed that doing some kinds of work via command line can be better than via a GUI. Perhaps this holds for some web- based tools/apps as well.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Note: I did not make this, I am posting this because I think it looks cool. Also, I was trying to figure out what libraries they used to make it but was not able to figure it out :X

<comment><USER3> Probably not shellinabox, but this is one tool you may be interested in, if you want to provide shell interface to CLI programs on the web. [https://github.com/shellinabox/shellinabox](https://github.com/shellinabox/shellinabox)</comment></comment>


Ask HN:How do people invest in VC funds? - <AUTHOR>

I've come across lots of articles on how VCs invest in startups, but never came across on how people invest in VC funds.  Is it like investing in a hedge fund?  What are the mechanics for all of that? <comment><USER2> _how people invest in VC funds_

Step 1: Acquire several million dollars.

Step 2: Talk to the VCs who funded your company and ask if they're looking for more limited partners, or if they know any good funds which are.

VC funds are even less liquid than hedge funds. They're not something you can buy into easily unless you have a lot of cash and a lot of connections.

<comment><AUTHOR> So the investors are just 20-30 high net worth individuals? From an investing point of view, I'd be curious to see the returns and mechanics of VC funds. The highest returns I've ever come across on a hedge fund was 30% ROE over 10 years....until the quant fund blew up with the housing crises

<comment><USER2> _So the investors are just 20-30 high net worth individuals?_

More often 20-30 high net worth institutions -- university endowment funds, pension funds, and suchlike -- but I imagine many VCs have a few individual investors too.</comment></comment></comment>


Economic History of Argentina - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Argentina <comment><AUTHOR> _The unique condition of Argentina, as a country which had achieved advanced development in the early 20th century but experienced a reversal, has inspired a wealth of literature and analyses on the causes of this progressive decline.[1] The Nobel prize-winning economist Simon Kuznets is said to have remarked that there were four types of countries: the developed, the underdeveloped, Japan and Argentina._

...

 _The ultimate cause of Argentina 's historical backwardness appears to be its institutional framework.[182] In macroeconomic terms, Argentina was one of the most stable and conservative countries until the Great Depression, after which it turned into one of the most unstable._</comment>