Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves' - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves <comment><USER3> Qatar's 2022 World Cup is a major controversy even outside of this. FIFA accepts World Cup bids mainly on the basis of bribery, but Qatar was a bridge too far. The country is so unsuitable to host a World Cup while simultaneously being so full of money that's being spent chasing prestige that it's completely blatant what really happened there.

The temperature is over 100 in the summer, so even with massive air conditioned stadiums they're not sure how to build yet, it's going to be a miserable experience for fans. If they move it to the winter, that means either January/February (which conflicts with the Winter Olympics and, in the US, the NFL postseason, leaving FOX aggrieved that their World Cup broadcasting rights are essentially worthless) or November/December (which conflicts with club football in England, particularly the traditional Boxing Day fixtures). Australia, one of the other countries that bid for 2022, is threatening to sue FIFA if they move the tournament to winter on the grounds that they bid for a summer tournament. The USA also had a very strong 2022 bid. Qatar, like Russia (who will host the 2018 World Cup) also has laws against homosexuality. The Russia bid, by the way, won against an England bid, and while it's more defensible than Qatar, it also smells of bribery and does more to motivate England in particular against FIFA's handling of the next two World Cup bidding processes.

With all that in context, this frankly isn't news. Qatar, like Dubai, is notorious for its treatment of migrant construction labor. But stories like this serve a PR purpose for the multitudes of parties aggrieved by FIFA, all of whom have money on the line.

<comment><USER4> Do the terms "winter" and "summer" in this context only refer to the northern hemisphere? Was Australia's "summer" bid to place the tournament in their winter? Presumably they have better weather in the winter.

<comment><USER5> Much of Australia is reasonably temperate. July in Sydney or Melbourne is in the 40s-50s Fahrenheit, which, while chilly, is both comparable to the climate for a large portion of the club season in Europe and vastly better than 100-ish for a sport that combines endurance running with interval sprints.

<comment><USER6> The previous World Cup in South Africa was also held during their winter. I believe the weather was similar to what Australia would have.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> From the article:

 _• Evidence of forced labour on a huge World Cup infrastructure project.

• Some Nepalese men have alleged that they have not been paid for months and have had their salaries retained to stop them running away.

• Some workers on other sites say employers routinely confiscate passports and refuse to issue ID cards, in effect reducing them to the status of illegal aliens.

• Some labourers say they have been denied access to free drinking water in the desert heat.

• About 30 Nepalese sought refuge at their embassy in Doha to escape the brutal conditions of their employment._

I have to object to The Guardian's use of scare quotes in the title...

<comment><USER8> I lived and worked in Qatar and none of this is new to me. These people are treated in horrible conditions and I don't think Qataris have a second thought about it. They genuinely believe they are superior people and are permitted to do this to those lower than them (I am generalizing, yes, there are some good people there, but this is the most pervasive mindset. Just look up horror stories of how Filipina maids are treated in Qatari households. Rape victimes are at the Philippines embassy there every day trying to get help).

It was a really terrible place, don't be seduced by the media coverage gushing about their wealth. It's very easy to be

This is a government that charges fines from their red light cameras in excess of a year of a laborer's salary. They then require an "exit visa" to depart the country, and you can't get the exit visa until all your debts are paid, and your employer gives you one. I knew of Sri Lankan cab drivers who were trapped for _years_ in Qatar trying to pay off their fines so they could leave.

Even as a professional American your employer can abuse you if they feel like it thanks to the "exit visa" requirement. Oh, you're quitting? Fine, I'll keep your last paycheck, here's your exit visa. Nobody should take a country that has an "exit visa" requirement seriously! I could not deal with the pressure of my freedom literally being in my employers hands. I did not last there very long in this environment, I am never going back to that hellhole.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for sharing your experience. I wonder how many expats would be in Qatar or Dubai in the first place if it weren't for the 0% income tax.

Speaking of Dubai...

"Norwegian woman sentenced to prison in Dubai for the crime of unlawful sex with her alleged rapist"

"Australian Alicia Gali reported being brutally raped while working at a hotel in the Unite Arab Emirates 2008, spent eight months in a fetid and overcrowded jail cell after (she says) being tricked into signing a confession."

[http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2013/07/shocking- cas...](http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2013/07/shocking-case-marte- dalelv-shows-why-we-should-be-boycotting-dubai)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> None of this is new. There have been plenty of articles describing how expat laborers are treated in some of these Middle Eastern countries. I have family who live and work in Dubai (very near Qatar) and Ive visited a few times. Here are some of the things I've heard :

\- Workers having their passports taken away so they can't leave. This is very common.

\- Not being paid wages they were promised.

\- Beatings and general mistreatment.

\- Being made to work in extreme temperatures.

\- Authorities under-reporting weather temperatures so workers cannot stop working.

\- Getting thrown out of the country and/or being threatened if any complaints are made.

\- Housemaids from India,Sri Lanka,Phillipines,Bangladesh etc being assaulted, beaten and sexually molested. This is shockingly common.

\- Large numbers of women (girls) from Slavic and East Asian countries being imported/traded/bartered as sex workers.

\- Basically - if you're brown-skinned and not a local you're like a 3rd class citizen.

</comment><comment><USER10> If you've ever wondered to what degree bribes influence World Cup selection, to find a worse location than Qatar you would almost have to put the World Cup in Antarctica or under the ocean.

By just about every measure they considered in every official analysis, Qatar was rated as the worst choice.

Total attendance in South Africa 2010 was 3.1 million. Qatar has a population of 1.9 million.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins...](http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins_efa_is_calling_for_fifa_to_take_the/cbov711?context=3)

They also promised some magical stadium air conditioning tech because the regular environmental of Qatar would make having a big outdoor tournament impossible. Big surprise, relying on not-yet-invented tech is looking like it won't work and they are already saying they may have to move to the coolest part of the year.

Just one more specific example: FIFA requires there to be 6 different host cities, while Qatar only had three. They got around this by saying they would 'build' four new cities in time for the World Cup.

It's a travesty.

</comment><comment><USER11> As someone who spent 4 months in Qatar several years ago, I am unfortunately confirm the pathetic treatment of foreign physical laborers there.

As an example, one thing all the malls there do is "family day": the idea in theory being that it's then to make Muslim women feel more comfortable. Turns out in practice though, a decently dressed Arab male can go in, as can a white male. "Family day" is really "no laborers at the mall day", and it just so happens to be on the one day most workers get off

</comment><comment><USER12> A very similar article was written 4 years ago in The Independent about Dubai and as far as I know nothing has changed. Definitely worth a read to find out about a very similar culture of modern day slavery

'The Dark Side of Dubai': [http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann- hari...](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the- dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)

<comment><USER13> Some expats have raised doubts over this article: [http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk- jour...](http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk-journalist- johann-hari-to-task-over-portrayal-of-dubai)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> It pains me that the U.S. has absolutely no balls to stand up to the Middle Eastern sheikdoms. And American businessmen are slobbering like puppies trying to get a slice of that oil capital. It's all quite disgusting really.

<comment><USER15> Why would the US be involved in this issue? I would think that it's FIFA's fault for choosing the location.

<comment><USER16> IMO you are spot on that its FIFA's fault for choosing the location. The Cup will be moved to the winter and will affect European football due to league play.

The US was runner up and should have been awarded the World Cup in 2022. The 1994 Cup in the US was one of the most, it not the most, profitable World Cup.

The infrastructure is in place in the US to host the World Cup.

Can you imagine what political ramifications there would be if the World Cup hosting rights were taking away from Qatar and awarded to the US.

<comment><USER17> Do you have sources for it being so profitable? For who? Everything I understand about events like the World Cup and Olympics is that they are massively wasteful, corrupt, publicly funded economic disasters. Is that just the Olympics?

<comment><USER16> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup)

It was one of the most profitable World Cups, take into account that it was in 1994.

<comment><USER17> The most comprehensive source (and most recent, and only source about the economics I can still find) to this page suggests that it was an economic catastrophe that "showed a cumulative loss of $5.6 billion to $9 billion."[1] It's the same argument politicians use to swindle taxpayers into publicly financing stadiums for billionaire sports owners.

[1] [http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe- coates...](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe-coates- worldcup-20100907)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Qatar is right next to the UAE, both geographically and in terms of their treatment of foreign laborers. When somebody I know mentions they are considering working or vacationing in Dubai, I make a point of mentioning how those gleaming towers were built. Now I get to complain about Qatar whenever the world cup comes up in conversation. Gee, that ought to make me popular!

The UAE and Qatar are both countries awash in oil money who are trying to buy their way out of their uncivilized reputations. Surprisingly, it's working. People are attracted by the gleaming steel and concrete that makes places like Dubai seem like they're from the future. Working there (in white collar jobs) also appeals because the average engineer can afford servants! Although it may feel boorish, pointing out the true nature of the foundations these places are built upon is the only way to prevent more cities just like them from popping up wherever there is money right next to poverty.

<comment><USER19> I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. What you say is a 100% true. After watching how a laborer was treated in Dubai, I refuse to fly Emirates, Qatar, Etihad or any middle eastern airline. And I hope I never have to set foot in these atrocious places for the rest of my life.

<comment><USER18> People from the Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar, and those who have vacationed/worked there also visit this board, and are no doubt not happy about this being pointed out. Even just visiting a place makes you feel connected to it, and angry when something like this is pointed out. Like I said, I don't expect saying things like this to make me popular. Still, the more people are willing to be unpopular, the more chance there is for change.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> As somebody who spent a few years in Saudi Arabia (as well as visiting some of its fellow oil rich neighbors)...I can confirm this problem which is endemic to all rich Middle Eastern countries. As an American of Indian ethnicity (I can speak Hindi), I was able to see how people from these countries treat folks from the Indian subcontinent.

They're all basically nouveau-riche. They bring in what is slave labor/indentured servitude from poorer countries like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, the Philippines, etc. They clean the toilets, they serve the food at McDonalds, they build every house and skyscraper, the work the oil fields...in other words all the dirty jobs. Likewise people from western countries are brought into do the white collar work -- doctors, engineers, architects, etc....though they're having a blast.

I would say the situation is analogous to illegal immigrants from Mexico in the US -- but believe it or not we're way way way way way nicer to our illegal immigrants than these countries are to their legal immigrants! They live in terrible and barbaric conditions very similar to those described in the article. What makes it all so horrid is the disparity in wealth between the way they live and the way the elites live. If you're in Dubai, you can go snowboarding on a ski slope inside a shopping mall -- built by some guy who's in the outskirts of the city, sleeping in a hot tin can with 12 other guys, a broken AC, completely sore body, and sun burnt skin. You'll sometimes see Arab guys screaming at/assaulting these people at stores, shops, or taxis as if they're feudal lords talking to their peasants.

My father calls these immigrants heroes. They take shit (physically, verbally, mentally) you and I could not imagine just to send back the equivalent of $100-$200 a month to their families back home. That small amount of money enables them to educate their kids, feed their family, build homes, businesses, etc. They dream of the day they get to return home and finally see their families again.

</comment><comment><USER21> Terrible. This reminds me of what was going on in Saipan 20 years ago. A paradise of conservative/libertarian economic governance that Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay worked so hard to protect from the horrors of organized labor and worker's rights.

[http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard- labor-...](http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard-labor- pacific-island-special-report-saipan-sweatshops-are-no.html)

<comment><USER22> hold up. in no way is/was Saipan a paradise of libertarian economic governance. From your article: "If we complain, then our bosses would send us back to China and take away all of our money. Our families need the money."

No libertarian I know, me included, would object to (rather, we would support) massive penalties for any entity that engaged in such behavior.

Additionally, Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay are the exact opposite of anything/anyone a libertarian would endorse.

I really encourage you to learn about Libertarianism because if you really believe Saipan 20 years ago was a "paradise of libertarian economic governance" you are farrrr off the mark.

<comment><USER21> And how do you imagine these "massive penalties" would be enforced? Perhaps by government regulation? Can't recall the last time I heard a Libertarian talk about a lack of that, or say anything favorable about labor unions. I think a lot of Libertarians think of Libertarianism as economic Conservatism, except it all works out magically because Free Markets and legal marijuana! Both sides tend to have an misplaced trust in the free markets to solve problems, and have a knee-jerk reaction against any increase in the size of Big Government, new regulations or labor union-strengthening measures.

I've been both a conservative and libertarian myself in the past, and I would agree that these outcomes are not considered desirable by adherents of those viewpoints, but unfortunately this sort of thing is very often the result of the policies and philosophy they thought would make everyone's lives better.

My two cents. Or if I'm more honest, Thomas Frank's two cents. [http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives- Govern...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives- Government/dp/0805090908) Good read, that.

<comment><USER22> "Free Markets and legal marijuana!" You're clearly not interested in having a civil discussion. If I were as childish as you, I would respond that you believe in "Socialism and the Drug war!" (both proven failures)

I am only replying for the sake of people who may not have been introduced to Libertarianism.

Libertarianism is absolutely reliant on property rights and contract rights. Both of which must be enforced by a government and were violated in the example above. The huge penalties would be levied by a court.

The regulation that most Libertarians oppose is more akin to the current situation. There are vast regulations on Wall Street (and resources expended putting them in place) but when rampant fraud becomes evident not a single prosecution is made. In the meantime, the barrier to entry is raised and competition is stifled with further meaningless regulation as the Government sells it self to special interests (while claiming "reform"). Other examples: illegal wars, illegal torture, illegal surveillance. No one held accountable.

Your post amounts to "you're against meaningless/hurtful regulation? anarchy doesnt work!!!"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Not 'slaves' but serfs (no quotes necessary). Since we're moving back to feudalism, we should start getting it right.

</comment><comment><USER24> Some perspective from Nepali side, even though I don't reside there now I go back quite often. Airport in Nepal has separate line/queue for emigration for these workers going to arab countries like Qatar. Every day 100s of such workers emigrate out of Nepal, all carrying dream of earning a decent living and sending money back for family. As much as it pains me to say this, some of those workers have no better option in Nepal. In my village itself, I've seen hoards of supposed lower caste people make a better living for themselves because of earnings/money sent back by their sons/husbands from Qatar and other countries. They were neglected by upper caste/government before and now they are neglected by another country. Problem lies with Nepal, the government more than anything. Everyone who aspires to go abroad thinks or believes it won't happen to them, but they don't know the bad conditions waiting for them until they leave. And as the article states, in most cases they take loans, sell farmland(if they've any) and build up a sizable debt before setting food abroad. What can be done to help the situation? Fixing problems from Nepali side aside, it would help if Fifa would strip Qatar of the WC all together, but not likely as they were bribed in first place anyways. It would also help if bigger entities(US, UK) put pressure on Fifa in the regards.

<comment><USER25> Agreed. FIFA is unlikely to suddenly change though: it, like the numerous ultra-conservative non-state totalitarian oil-fuelled sheikhdom-hells of the Middle East, is like the rest of the mass media entertainment industry merely a symptom of the real problem, which is global capitalism. The US and Europe benefit too much to make any concrete change. They're all hypocrites. We have to make change ourselves by supporting one another.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> As referenced to in the article and highly relevant, the Kafala System [1] which has roots in Islamic adoption jurisprudence [2].

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system)

[2] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudenc...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudence)

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, only 6% of the labor force is made up of locals. Basically the Qataris sit back and let workers from the rest of the world do 94% of the country's work. Which begs the question, what exactly do Qataris do all day?!

 _> "Under the state-run kafala sponsorship system, workers are also unable to change jobs or leave the country without their sponsor company's permission."_ (Guardian)

 _> About 1.2 million foreign workers in Qatar, mostly from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Indonesia and the Philippines, make up 94 percent of the labor force. There are nearly five foreign workers for each Qatari citizen, mostly housemaids and low-skilled workers._ (Link 1 above)

<comment><USER27> As is the case in all the Persian Gulf oil states. You didn't think the sheikhs themselves would get their hands dirty, did you? They've got Pakistanis for that.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#A...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#Abuse)

<comment><USER26> Pretty much. Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and many, many Indians. The proximity to the subcontinent makes it easy to bring in the labor force. Growing up in the middle east, I knew people whose passports were taken by their sponsor so that they couldn't leave the country. House maids are very badly treated in particular (physical abuse sometimes leading to death).

<comment><USER28> I want to give some input from the other side here.

I was born in Pakistan. I got out of there at age 12. It took my family about 8 years to get all the paperwork in order to leave the place.

I vividly remember, when I was about 8, a lady coming to our house to sell some pomegranates. It's what a lot of poor people do there to get by, kind of like this: [http://transworldexpedition.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/10/D...](http://transworldexpedition.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/10/D_banana_boy.jpg). They'd knock the door of each house and try to make a sale. My mom often bought their stuff, and would sometime offer them some work for a small pay (wash the dishes, 20 rupees; mop the floor, 10 rupees). One of the ladies that my mom used to do business with frequently came to our house one day, just begging and begging to borrow (I think) some 12,000 rupees (about $100 USD). Why did she need that money? Her husband had found an opportunity to get out of the country... she spoke very happily about this as if it was finally a blessing she'd been praying for. She said her husband would go there to make money, and send it back so she could more comfortably take care of her 5 kids. This was while my family was in the process of getting the papers in order to flee Pakistan for America, we'd been working with 2 lawyers, we knew how to play the game and we had the money to play it. I remember thinking then in my naivete, wow, so poor people also have the opportunity to leave that hellhole for a better life.

Of course now I'm here in America, and I never heard of her again. But I can make a good guess what happened. Her husband probably saved up to go to Qatar (or some other middle-eastern region where this happens), paid for the ticket himself, had his passport confiscated when he got there and was basically trapped. It sends a chill down my spine to think how the lady fared in her life, without a husband, without the small income stream that she once had, with no word back from him -- only uncertainty. I knew where she lived, her place of residence, it kind of like this: [http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article391293.ece/ALTERNATES...](http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article391293.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/sukhi- johal-image-3-28704880-391293.jpg), with basically nothing inside besides a wooden frame for sleeping and little possessions beside stuff picked up from trash.

What separated her or her children from me, was that I was born a good kilometer north of where she lived, where the slums were. I was born to a father with a masters in chemical engineering, who had the means, resources, and the knowledge to know he had to get out of there if he wanted a better life for himself or his children.

I'm left now with the depressing, heavy, and intimate knowledge that there are still so many people there -- and elsewhere in India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal etc. that are recipients of this cruel fate. Their sons and daughters are sold off as slaves and/or prostitutes, and they can't even do anything about it. The misery those people suffer is simply unimaginable to us.

<comment><USER25> Right on. Things are bad for people in much of the world, not just South Asia. A Nepali girl who is a friend of a friend of ours is basically homeless, penniless and stranded after a romantic overseas trip ended up with her being mistreated by her boyfriend. She is staying with us for the next week until a flight home. In the same week, a young boy we know's father was attacked by thieves with knives who slit his throat and hands to make off with minor cash. He was so deeply psychologically shocked that he has turned so far on to hard drugs he is completely ignoring his own family. After seeing the financial and emotional stress caring for the boy is placing on other people I promised to go and try to discuss him out of it: that's crisis #2 to solve this afternoon! The developing world sure is amazing, but poverty and pain can be hard to escape.

<comment><USER28> Thanks for helping these folks out, you're making the world a better place by helping them in their time of misfortune.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> One of the appalling details is that these abuses to the individual don't make a dent in anyone's profit. Really, how many workers do you have to deny water to, in order to make up for even one worker's salary?

I allege that this is actually a symptom of corruption. Starting with poor labor laws at the top, down to poor enforcement of probably already poor corporate policies on the ground.

I don't really believe that this situation is even to the best interest of the companies (excepting maybe the slave driving contractors on the bottom).

<comment><USER30> If FIFA had any moral fortitude then they would cancel the event - <USER2> independent parties can verify the allegations and there is any evidence that the government have not been acting to the best of it's abilities to prevent such actions.

It seems FIFA care nothing about football except that it's an opportunity for the rich to line their pockets.

If FIFA don't act then governments in countries where FIFA operate should be shutting them down and disbarring all directors for supporting wide-scale illegal and immoral activity against human beings.

Even one confirmed case of a worker being unfairly denied their entire wage (without the government moving to correct the injustice), never mind being denied water or freedom from physical abuse or having their passport unjustly confiscated and they should just revert to the runner up country.

That would be fair play.¹

1 - [http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/...](http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/index.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm glad this is getting attention. I was in Germany in July and watched a ~1h documentary about the working conditions there. Confirming what is written in the Guardian. The image I saw in the documentary were extreme. No access to clean water, no access to working bath rooms, no paying. They're also lured into coming there being promised a better life and once they're there they realize it but it's too late.

There has also been a report on it in March from Spiegel:

[http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler...](http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler- gewerkschaftsbund-erhebt-vorwuerfe-gegen-katar-a-891266.html)

I usually dont' quote BILD, but they say the workers get paid ~0.78 Cent (EUR) an hour:

[http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie- skl...](http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie-sklaven- behandelt-29673610.bild.html)

No air conditioning when it's often over 50 deg. celsius (~122 Fahrenheit). This could explain the many hear failures noted in the article.

</comment><comment><USER32> I am appalled by the conditions but I don't think any of these articles is going to change a single thing in Qatar. I believe it will continue happening in Qatar. Only way to stop it is educate people from poorer countries to not go there no matter how enticing it seems(just like a mirage).

<comment><USER33> And to stop hosting international events and locating foreign-owned businesses there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> How can someone enjoy a soccer match knowing it is happening on a field stained by the blood of modern-day slaves.

I WON'T. WILL YOU?

</comment><comment><USER35> Can't imagine to walk in their shoes. This is a crime and serious human right violation. Wonder if embassy of small country not able to take action against contractors?

</comment><comment><USER36> There is always the possibility of a fourth Punic war...

</comment><comment><USER37> "Revealed?"

Where have you been? How is this news?

</comment><comment><USER38> The richest people are refusing to pay for labor, enslaving human beings instead - insanity.

</comment><comment><USER39> Why hasn't Nepal rescued its country men from this?

<comment><USER24> no one cares, its a corrupt government where everyone is looking out to make money at every level.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> This is shocking... how? The arab empire was built on the slave trade. The whole of Dubai exists solely due to external workers, from engineers to the bricklayers.

This should not shock anyone.

<comment> at-fates-hands The only shocking thing is how we in the US put up with this behavior from governments we send billions in aid to every year. You'd think we'd have the balls to suspend some their aid and have them put an end to this type of abuse.

<comment><USER41> How is that the US' responsibility? It has nothing to do with balls at all, either.

If you think the US has any interest in exerting its economic or military power in the interest of morals and ethics then I've got a bridge to sell you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Hey, different strokes for different folks.

</comment><comment><USER43> As someone who lives in the Emirates, I have to object to the allegation of "slaves." This is not slavery. It's indentured servitude, which is definitely distressing but not quite of the same character.

Most importantly, in the talks I've had with workers, the vast majority of them still are happy to have these jobs despite the conditions. They're paid an order of magnitude more than they make in Nepal and if you go to poor Nepalese villages you'll see entire families building new houses based on earnings from sons who went to work in the gulf.

Finally, it's important to note that there's pretty drastic variation in how workers are treated in different firms. Certainly none have ideal working conditions, but the majority are legal and passable. It's the truly horrible ones which actually trigger government investigations (and, sadly enough, many of the worst firms are actually run by overseas businessmen.).

<comment><USER44> Indentured servitude is debt bondage made explicitly so (contractually). When a worker says, "we were compelled to come just to make a living, but we've had no luck", that seems like they've been tricked into working as indentured servants without prior knowledge.

<comment><USER45> I think pretty much all of them are well aware that the cost of flying them to the Gulf far exceeds their savings and they won't have the funds to fly back of their own accord before their contract is up. It's not one of these trafficking situations where they've been told they've been found a nice domestic service job in the capital and they subsequently end up in an underground brothel in another country.

They have good reason to expect to have access to food and their post- deduction wages though.

<comment><USER43> > It's not one of these trafficking situations where they've been told they've > been found a nice domestic service job in the capital and they subsequently > end up in an underground brothel in another country.

Exactly. Honestly, it's very telling that the vast majority of migrant workers in the gulf are men. They're doing hard manual labor, in admittedly poor conditions, but that is by and large what they signed up for.

> They have good reason to expect to have access to food and their post- > deduction wages though.

Agreed. And that's why the instances where they don't even receive that are so alarming and _do_ trigger government investigations.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This seems off topic to me and I don't feel like it follows the guidelines.

[http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

The thing I that bothers me is I get sucked into these off topics sensational stories.</comment>


How to conduct penetration testing and vulnerability assessment - <AUTHOR> https://www.jobportals.net/2020/08/i-will-conduct-penetration-testing-and.html <comment><AUTHOR> Test your web application to discover and fix all the security issues before cybercriminals exploit them!

I will conduct a professional penetration testing and vulnerability assessment of your web application (with or without authentication to your password- restricted areas in your application).

You will receive a detailed report listing all of my findings and mitigation recommendations (guidance on how to resolve the discovered security issues).

</comment><comment><USER2> Thank you</comment>


Canadian Police Obtained BlackBerry's Global Decryption Key - <AUTHOR> https://news.vice.com/article/exclusive-canada-police-obtained-blackberrys-global-decryption-key-how <comment><USER2> Lets break this down.

sms, not encrypted.

pin messages/BBM, "scrambled"

BBM protect, encrypted

BES (corporate device), encrypted with a key that BlackBerry is not suppose to be able to access.

Originally bb devices could send messages to other bb if you knew their pin. The data was compressed and encrypted, but a moot point since all bb devices had the same key. Pin messages,BBM and their bis infrastructure was never really considered secured, their main offering was BES with offered end to end security.

I used the term scrambled since that was the term everyone was using years ago since people get confused between encrypted, vs encrypted with shared key, vs not encrypted, etc. It quickly becomes a pointless conversation.

As far as I'm concerned, This isn't really surprising if you think about it. BlackBerry's only claim to security was BES for end to end communication.

<comment><USER3> The take away from each one of these is that corporations can not be trusted with your data not to divulge it to the government, or even to secure it well enough that it is not compromised. However, most corporations do not have the resources in terms of technical know-how and labor to do much better in terms of not being compromised.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's worthwhile to note that John Chen called out Apple for refusing to unlock an iPhone for the US government. (No, not the San Bernardino one, but a different one in a criminal case; I believe Apple has unlocked iPhones in other cases though.)

Quote: " _In fact, one of the world's most powerful tech companies recently refused a lawful access request in an investigation of a known drug dealer because doing so would "substantially tarnish the brand" of the company. We are indeed in a dark place when companies put their reputations above the greater good._ "

I guess it depends on your definition of "the greater good".

[http://blogs.blackberry.com/2015/12/the-encryption- debate-a-...](http://blogs.blackberry.com/2015/12/the-encryption-debate-a-way- forward/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Some pretty epic parts coming out of this story, if even _half_ of it is true:

 _" Rouleau even admitted to the judge, during one ex parte hearing, that his own phone would be vulnerable to the type of intrusion the RCMP used on the targets of the investigation.

"I'm a dead chicken. That's the reality of it, that's what we don't want the general public to know," Rouleau said."_

</comment><comment><USER5> CEO John Chen earlier said this about BlackBerry security (at [http://crackberry.com/john-chen-discusses-blackberry- securit...](http://crackberry.com/john-chen-discusses-blackberry-security-and- e-mail)):

> There have been a number of news articles over the past few months > speculating that BlackBerry technology may have been deployed in a non- > approved manner, placing sensitive government information at risk. While I > cannot comment or speculate on those news stories, _or the extent to which > any vulnerable non-BlackBerry components may have been involved_ , I do want > to reiterate the security technologies that BlackBerry provides to millions > of government and enterprise customers around the world.

New BlackBerries are based on Android now. I'd venture that 95% of a new BlackBerry is made of non-BlackBerry components. I find it interesting that he carefully disclaims any vulnerabilities that might have been found and exploited in that 95%.

I don't have anything particularly against BlackBerry. I wish they'd get their act together and do well so we can have more competition and innovation in the cell phone market. However, I wish we'd put that whole "BlackBerry is secure" trope to rest because that doesn't ring remotely true to my ears.

<comment><USER6> Blackberry deserves props for experimentation and their surprising good OS 10, but if Priv is shorthand for privacy, then that's veering close to dishonesty.

Darn happy with my Passport though.

<comment><USER7> _...if Priv is shorthand for privacy, then that 's veering close to dishonesty._

I remember one experience very clearly from when the Priv first entered the market. I looked through the related web pages, curious about where Blackberry was going. I found plenty of marketing around tools that would notify you if various things went wrong in terms of privacy and security. However, I found _literally nothing_ to state that the phone would actively prevent those things from going wrong or check with the user before performing actions they apparently considered significant enough to warn about. It was one of the most marketing-heavy, content-light, non-committal product sites I've seen in a long time.

Until today I don't think I've been there again. After reading the initial marketing, I just assumed the phone wasn't actually going to be significantly more secure or private than anyone else's or they'd have told us how it was instead of skirting around it repeatedly for the entire site. In fact, if memory serves, it was at the time based on a version of Android that predates some significant improvements in terms of app permissions and locking down what they can do, suggesting that contemporary models from competitors that used a later version of Android would actually have been much better than the Priv in at least some areas of security and privacy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What am I missing? When I Google "blackberry pin to pin encryption" , the first result is this article:

> Canadian government warns BBM PIN-to-PIN messaging is 'most vulnerable > method of communicating on a BlackBerry'

[http://bgr.com/2013/02/27/blackberry-messenger-security- vuln...](http://bgr.com/2013/02/27/blackberry-messenger-security- vulnerability-346634/)

> Canadian government agency Public Safety Canada, which is tasked with > overseeing cyber-security across all federal departments, has issued a memo > warning government workers that communicating using BlackBerry Messenger > PIN-to-PIN messaging is "the most vulnerable method of communicating on a > BlackBerry." ... According to the memo, PIN-to-PIN messages sent via > BlackBerry Messenger could be intercepted and read by any BlackBerry user > anywhere in the world. ... "Although PIN-to-PIN messages are encrypted, they > key used is a global cryptographic 'key' that is common to every BlackBerry > device all over the world," Public Safety Canada official stated in the > memo. "Any BlackBerry device can potentially decrypt all PIN-to-PIN messages > sent by any other BlackBerry device."

Why is there any surprise then that the RCMP has capability to decrypt it?

</comment><comment><USER9> Assuming this is all true -- and I think the article puts forth some compelling evidence that it is -- I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the U.S. (and the three other "Eyes") also have access to this key.

</comment><comment><USER10> There is no way this key is not already in someone's hands who is not supposed to have it. There is no way it wasn't leaked, stolen, misplaced, or sold (for probably a ton of money).

Who is going to trust Blackberry now? Even as a BB Enterprise customer, I'd be scrambling right now to change my system immediately. This is exactly what I expect will happen to the whole industry if idiotic bills like the one currently proposed by Senator Feinstein make it through. No sane, security- minded person will want to use any of these products. And there certainly is no shortage of foreign competition. But it's all worth it to calm down the cowardly masses who are afraid of terrorism or whatever the fear of the day might be, right?

</comment><comment><USER11> Just an example of why closed security systems are inherently not secure.

EDIT: Of course, I also mean the closed possession of private keys.

<comment><USER12> Even if it were open, how would you know the key had been obtained by a third party?

<comment><USER11> By 'closed', I also meant that the key was in proprietary possession.

If it were open, one could check and ensure private keys were never under the possesion of a third-party.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This story doesn't make any sense at all. Surely Blackberry isn't stupid enough to use a "single encryption/decryption key" for all their messages.

<comment><USER9> The linked article on Motherboard [0] expands on this a little bit:

> _BlackBerry (formerly RIM) encrypts all messages sent between consumer > phones, known as PIN-to-PIN or BBM messages, using a single "global > encryption key" that's loaded onto every handset during manufacturing. With > this one key, any and all messages sent between consumer BlackBerry phones > can be decrypted and read. In contrast, Business Enterprise Servers allow > corporations to use their own encryption key, which not even BlackBerry can > access._

[0]: [http://motherboard.vice.com/read/rcmp-blackberry-project- cle...](http://motherboard.vice.com/read/rcmp-blackberry-project-clemenza- global-encryption-key-canada)

<comment><AUTHOR> Right - that's the part that I have a really hard time believing. Even having a single decryption key _per device_ seems insane - isn't it pretty standard practice to frequently rotate your session key? I'm wondering if this was something that Blackberry was doing back in the early 90s, and, as the state of the art advanced, they never upgraded their systems.

It really sounds terribly insecure to me.

<comment><USER13> How are these people still in business?

<comment><USER14> Corporate inertia mostly

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Cracking Blackberries isn't unknown for RCMP:

From: [https://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nssc/doc/2016/2016nssc7/2016nss...](https://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nssc/doc/2016/2016nssc7/2016nssc7.html)

" On June 24, 2014 the RCMP advised in writing that their crime lab required another two to three months to crack the BlackBerry."

&

"The Crown could not disclose the contents of the BlackBerry until they were able to crack it. Once cracked, there was no relevant evidence on it to disclose."

</comment><comment><USER16> This is just PIN-to-PIN messaging, right? Isn't PIN-to-PIN sort of morally equivalent to GSM encryption?

</comment><comment><USER17> I would be surprised if CSE and CSIS don't have their own staff embedded inside Blackberry, either with or without the company's knowledge. They don't have nearly the budget that NSA does but they're not stupid.

</comment><comment><USER18> Wasn't Obama using a Blackberry device a few years ago? Granted the device he was using was likely hardened, but still raises interesting questions.

<comment><USER8> What interesting questions does it raise?

<comment><USER18> Whether or not his phone is compromised from BlackBerry's key being available to governmental authorities, even those outside the US.

<comment><USER19> Canada/CSEC works directly with the NSA. So I'm sure they are aware of Blackberry's vulnerabilities. Same with GCHQ and New Zealand. I believe the DoD complained about having to secure his Blackberry when he insisted on using it over their standard Android devices.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Taking the edge off rant mode by making readers pass a quiz before commenting - <AUTHOR> http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/03/this-site-is-taking-the-edge-off-rant-mode-by-making-readers-pass-a-quiz-before-commenting/ <comment><USER2> Fitting that nobody is commenting here</comment>


Attacks against GPG-signed APT repositories - <AUTHOR> https://blog.packagecloud.io/eng/2018/02/21/attacks-against-secure-apt-repositories/ <comment><USER2> Discussed on HN 3 months ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16432435](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16432435) (13 comments)

</comment><comment><USER3> Arbitrary package attack - fixed >4 years ago, requires explicit config to enable downgrade, but some distros screw that up

Replay and Freeze attacks -- Ouch! sounds like every repo should set an aggressive Valid-Until (24 hours?). This attack still works with a compromised SSL mirror, and seems (according to the link below) to already be addressed as of at least 5 months ago

Extraneous Dependencies -- sounds like a bug in apt, also manifests for a compromised TLS mirror.

Endless Data -- nothing to do with GPG or TLS

Improper error handling in APT -- 18 month old bug

apt-key silently fails to remove GPG keys -- unfortunate and doubtlessly due to gnupg's lack of a real API

Conclusion -- at least 3 of the listed bugs manifest identically with SSL, another 2 are fixable implementation bugs. None are issues endemic to using GPG in preference to SSL, and none exclusively support the article's conclusion to always use SSL. Post fails to contrast the GPG bugs situation with the fact that e.g. Heartbleed occurred during the same timeframe as the bugs that were mentioned, one of many crucial factors in deciding the relative security of either solution, post additionally fails to mention with GPG the root of trust is the repository signer, which is still required with SSL, SSL only protects 'last mile' and specifically does not protect against a compromised mirror

I must admit though, the replay attack is scary and a very nice find.

Be sure to also read [https://whydoesaptnotusehttps.com/](https://whydoesaptnotusehttps.com/) to see the other side of the coin

Finally, consider perusing the list of OpenSSL CVEs since 2014: [https://www.openssl.org/news/vulnerabilities.html](https://www.openssl.org/news/vulnerabilities.html) and the corresponding list for gnupg: [https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/search/results?form_type=Basic&res...](https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/search/results?form_type=Basic&results_type=overview&query=gnupg&search_type=all) \-- bearing in mind that when SSL is deployed the union of both lists applies, without SSL only the gnupg list applies

<comment><USER2> > Be sure to also read > [https://whydoesaptnotusehttps.com/](https://whydoesaptnotusehttps.com/)

Comments on HN: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16221563](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16221563)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> `apt-transport-https` has been merged in apt since v1.5. Good.

[https://ftp.us.debian.org](https://ftp.us.debian.org) returns a certificate for `mirrors.wikimedia.org`. [https://ftp.it.debian.org](https://ftp.it.debian.org) returns a certificate for `ftp.bofh.it`. Do mirrors support TLS?

<comment><USER2> Some do, but most likely not under ftp.*.debian.org name. AFIAK there's no official list of HTTPS-enabled mirrors. An incomplete, possibly out-of-date list is here:

[https://email@example.com](https://firstname.lastname@example.com)

Besides that, [https://deb.debian.org/](https://deb.debian.org/) provides HTTPS mirror backed by CDNs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The linked paper was a precursor to the work on The Update Framework [https://theupdateframework.github.io/](https://theupdateframework.github.io/) which is a signing framework to alleviate these issues. It was originally developed for Tor, and has a well designed threat model.

</comment><comment><USER6> As noted in the previous discussion of this, it is, IMO not unfair to call this a PR hit piece. The authors are competing with the official APT repositories, and instead of informing users to patch, like a usual vulnerability announcement, it is instead in their business interest to drive as many clicks as possible and exaggerate the vulnerabilities. Regardless of the partially valid issues raised, it was apparent from the reading it that marketing their services was the prime goal of this article, so I rejected and still reject this article out of principle (and have felt extremely reluctant to use their services ever since).</comment>


Show HN: Spotify for learning - <AUTHOR> https://fluffzy.com <comment><AUTHOR> Hey everyone, Me and my co-founder having hard time to find great content because of the all the fluff content out there. There is a lot of great content out there but it's so time consuming the find great ones. We had to open dozens of tabs and read/watch 10 content to find 1 great.

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\- rank content or search results \- create and follow collections to learn new things without the hustle of searching.

We're focusing on startup advices and programming right now.

What do you think?</comment>


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Why and how the Cryptobubble will burst - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@dennyk/why-and-how-the-cryptobubble-will-burst-de9bc7fc5332 <comment><USER2> It already burst a couple of times actually. Back with MtGox we had quite the burst and a long period of decline. Or how about the 5 times China forbid Bitcon? Burst after burst.

As with the internet: we continued to built it anyway. Adding value to the network in our own way.

I have not stopped working with Blockchain technology no matter the price. I went from millionaire to nothing back to multi-millionaire and I have just kept on working. And I will keep on working, bubble or no bubble, there's always going to be cryptocurrencies and cryptocurrencies-innovation and work for developers and a nice people and fun projects.

<comment><USER3> As a developer of these technologies, you're in a completely different situation than the investors. Crypto-technologies have obvious value anywhere privacy is desired, but once productized as a virtual floating asset, the value becomes much harder to quantify, and then the grifters appear. Seems to me incorporating less privacy, a private side-channel for checks and balances of sorts, is something necessary. But I'm not a crypto-technologist, just someone with a graduate economics education, so my impressions may be irrelevant.

<comment><USER4> Privacy is actually a common misconception when it comes to cryptocurrency. More currencies, bitcoin included, are actually the opposite of private – every transaction is completely public for everyone to see. There are currencies (i.e. Monero) that aim to add privacy, but by and large it doesn't exist.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Just yesterday I saw an ad on the Tube[1] - "Buy & short cryptos" / "Copy expert crypto traders" / "Invest in a crypto portfolio", and made me think of cabbies giving stock tips previous to the 1987 crash.

[1] Pic here: [https://twitter.com/gabrielgambetta/status/92678756736590233...](https://twitter.com/gabrielgambetta/status/926787567365902336)

[2] Turns out it was shoeshine boys and 1929 ([http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive...](http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1996/04/15/211503/index.htm)), but my point stands :)

<comment><USER6> At a market cap of $200bn, it's hardly comparable. In fact, it's not even a blip in the grand scheme of things.

If this really is a bubble, current prices are cheap (imo) and it will head into the many trillions of dollars. But that's me putting on my speculator hat.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Disclosure: I sold most of my Bitcoin, and I own some Dash and Sia.

> cheaper at some point over the next 12 months is extremely high.

I agree with 85% of this post. Except two things:

1\. I think people dramatically underestimate the likelihood that Bitcoin and all cryptocurrencies get completely banned. ISIL isn't ransoming civilians for Bitcoin yet. They, or someone else will. Politicians and judges aren't getting contract killed via cryptocurrencies yet. They probably will. Governments are going to give people a choice: we're regulating you (signing transaction reversal with a special US TREASURY key, say, or requiring real identities behind addresses) or we're shutting you down. This even has precedent (eGold in the 90s). I think Bitcoin has a higher chance of surviving this than Etherium because it's less complex of a change.

2\. Just because you can call that there will be a Bitcoin pull back in the next twelve months, doesn't mean that it will be less than the price _right now_. Bitcoin has gone up a lot in the past 12 months and it can go up a lot more in the next 6. If it crashes from $25k a coin to $5k a coin you aren't really giving good advice for what to do today. Personally I hope it crashes to $1k soon so I can buy back in. Feeling kinda dumb for selling at $6k CAD, but it really could hit $50k before the pullback.

<comment><USER8> > . I think people dramatically underestimate the likelihood that Bitcoin and > all cryptocurrencies get completely banned.

I expect this will be almost as effective as the banning of narcotics, pirated media, alcohol during prohibition, etc. It's far, far too late for this to have a lasting effect (though certainly a short term reduction is price is likely)

<comment><USER9> It won't be effective at destroying bitcoin as an effective currency for illicit activity, but it absolutely would destroy the price, because you'd only be able to trade it outside of major exchanges, and without interacting with the american banking system, which would be _hard_.

<comment><USER10> The utility of Bitcoin for illicit activity is very much related to the fact that it can be then used in the legal economy. So, yes, an outright ban on its use and exchange would impact already-unnecessary uses.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The startup bubble separated the companies with some value (Amazon) from companies with no real value, or not enough to justify their existence.

It is challenging for me to separate rampant FOMO speculation from the use of cryptocurrency as a currency (Zimbabwe), but I suspect something similar will happen. The technologies and platforms that enable true digital currency use will end up flourishing for the long term.

</comment><comment><USER12> This one is one hell of laborious read. Though on the top highlight:

> This is the reason why things like technical analysis work much better in > crypto than in equities, because these markets are quite obviously more > likely to be driven by fear and greed than established markets.

It works because as the author puts it " the field is made up almost exclusively of newcomer retail investors that probably have never held a stock in their life."

In which case, trading is mostly done by reading some _trading_ books. Fundamental analysis tools like valuation etc. are quite vague and don't really provide a simplistic "if a, then do b" answers. So, people turn to TA which is much easier. If a significant amount of people follow it, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

That said, author also seems to use TA as well:

[https://medium.com/@dennyk/trying-to-make-sense-of-the- ellio...](https://medium.com/@dennyk/trying-to-make-sense-of-the-elliot-waves- situation-in-bitcoin-at-the-moment-872f619b7302)

</comment><comment><USER13> From what I have seen, Bitcoin is not a single bubble.

It is a endless stream of bubbles, and I see no end in sight.

Each bubble bursts and after a while it starts bubbling up again.

So, yes, it will burst. Many times. But that doesn't mean it will be the end of it.

<comment><USER14> It also goes along with the stock bubble which is absolutely fueling it.

You have a bunch of people with inflated net worths from their stock holdings who are being sold on Bitcoin as the "new gold" and a way to diversify their portfolios.

<comment><USER15> Just wait until the stock market crashes again and investors need to exit and park their wealth somewhere for awhile. I bet Bitcoin will be one of those places that wealth will go.

<comment><USER14> that is one way things could go.

the other is that when over-leveraged people who are living way beyond their means see their stock portfolios collapse they are all going to try to liquidate their crypto at the same time and so crypto will collapse the same as stocks.

<comment><USER15> That is certainly possible. I've liquidated some assets before when I really didn't want to just because I was going through some tough times financially.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Seems to me mostly a (valid) criticism of ICOs, which are kind of like penny- stock. No one would put all their money in a single penny stock, right?

It doesn't say much about buying stock in companies who have 'blockchain' in their name. Many of these seem like traditional startups (and many will fail), but can any of them provide fast growth? if not, any long term value?

Disclaimer: outsider point of view, I know nothing about this. I stopped using Bitcoin when renewing a domain name would cost me $5 in fees for a $15 transaction.

</comment><comment><USER17> Sure, it will burst. The Internet Bubble burst. And here we all are.

<comment><USER6> But not before first going up to $5.6tn in value though, and then crashing back to approx. $1.5tn. The entire crypto space is at $200bn now.. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> As an aside, it's interesting that Bitcoin can lose 10% of its value in a single day, and the media/bloggers will use language like "slight decrease" or "faded value" to downplay how serious that amount really is. (Bonus points for "The price is stabilizing" when it dips)

If it were possible to short bitcoin, we'd be hearing a very different choir (Edit: I was mistaken, it is possible)

<comment><USER19> You need to see it in the context. All cryptocurrencies are _extremely_ volatile and they routinely go up and down 10%. You simply can't compare the volatility to the stock market where similar numbers would make blood flow on the streets. Here it's almost business as usual.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> There will be a shake out, no doubt. The more valuable question to ask and answer is "which" cryptos will survive and thrive and "when" will this bubble burst?

</comment><comment><USER21> Amazon survived (thrived) the dot-com burst. I see no reason to believe the same won't be said of at least one coin. My money is on bitcoin and etherium.

</comment><comment><USER22> Interestingly, the deflation that happened recently in ICOs and Alt currencies seems to have boosted Bitcoin price (as the % share of bitcoin jumped)

While a bubble burst will affect most of the crypto, I wonder if crypto- currencies will survive the effects differently.

</comment><comment><USER23> "In the crypto bubble, the field is made up almost exclusively of newcomer retail investors that probably have never held a stock in their life." Any credible data source to back this up. Doesn't sound realistic at all.

<comment><USER6> It's not. Hedge funds have been moving in for a while, some institutional money is getting ready to move in in the next 6 to 12 months.

<comment><USER23> Precisely my thoughts....plus HNWIs. BIG difference to dot.com bubble when stocks were peddled by major brokers.

<comment><USER6> Honestly, I think it'll come. We're just not there yet (few years off)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Everyone knows that speculation is outpacing the current value of crypto, but unlike the .coms of the 2000s, there is inherent long term utility in the biggest cryptocurrencies. I can't tell what the true value will be, but there is value in these currencies independent of the fact they are trendy investments.

</comment><comment><USER25> This article fails to address the major question. Why and how are not important. The only thing that matters is WHEN the bubble will burst. Nobody can answer that question. My best estimate is around the 2020 election cycle when regulation of cryptocurrency becomes a major issue

</comment><comment><USER26> On the flip side gold has been in a 3000 year bubble without signs of bursting. The value of gold is far higher than it's industrial/luxury demand.

</comment><comment><USER27> can someone please tell medium.com to fix their certificates! Error code: SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER

\--firefox-- The owner of medium.com has configured their website improperly. To protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected to this website.

\--chrome-- Your connection is not private

Attackers might be trying to steal your information from medium.com (for example, passwords, messages, or credit cards). Learn more NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID

<comment><USER28> This may be caused by a missing intermediate cert on your machine.

<comment><USER29> Shouldn't sites be serving the the full trust chain, except for the root?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I don't see how Crypto 'Market Cap' is in any way related to the term 'Market Cap' as related to traditional stock.

</comment><comment><USER31> I wonder, isn't bitcoin much more power-hungry than other forms of currency?

</comment><comment><USER32> Bubbles are everywhere, one you probably never heard of is called humanity, yes our species.

One significant fuel of blockchain tech is the distrust in the current financial systems. If central bankers and governments could regain trust there is a probable chance of a bust.

</comment><comment><USER33> Blogger predicts bitcoin is a bubble. HN violently agrees. News at 11.

</comment><comment><USER34> I think many crypto-currencies (with and without ICOs) are rather obvious cash grabs that provide no actual value beyond speculation (e.g. dogecoin); was something comparable going on during the .com bubble? Were there many companies offering no actual value and taking in cash?

Edit: I originally conflated cryptos with ICOs, and have since corrected the mistake.

<comment><USER35> Dogecoin was made to take the piss on Bitcoin, not as an ICO. The fact that Dogecoin isn't currently worthless is a testament to how hilariously blind people are to the bubble.

<comment><USER36> I made money buying and selling UET (Useless Ethereum Token) [0]. There were open buy orders on an exchange for more than it was actively available for via ICO for a period of about a week. So naturally I made a bundle buying and selling it. In this case it was the confusing ICO terms that made it profitable.

[0] [https://uetoken.com/](https://uetoken.com/)

<comment><USER35> Impressive. I unironically applaud your success on making money off complete idiots.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Bitcoin's bubble will pop and reform, but it's unlikely to completely burst into oblivion.

</comment><comment><USER38> Happy that there isn't much disagreement here. A rational consensus is uncommon on Hn.</comment>


How are you all sending out your press releases? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Use www.prleap.com, just make sure to submit more than two days in advance if you submit for free, only the first 30 get into Google News each day. There are paid options which will get you into Google News as well.

I have seen Jajah, PageFlakes, Printingforless.com, and Squidoo releases on PR Leap.

</comment><comment><USER3> i write for venturebeat.com -- send me a copy at firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Awesome, Eric, will do.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've used eReleases to reasonable effect, but it seems to be a nebulous field with no one listing prices or describing services rendered very well. Anybody have any clarity to offer?

</comment><comment><USER4> I don't understand the concept. When to use press releases? What good do they do? Who reads them?

<comment><AUTHOR> <http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html>

Just to mention someone we can all recognize. But it's pretty well-understood that PR (not just press releases, but the whole process) is more valuable than any amount of advertising that small companies can afford.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Email seems to do the job pretty well.

<comment><AUTHOR> I mean to someone other than your mom.

<comment><USER5> No really. The wire services that you can pay for are mostly junk, same with PR Web. It'll get picked up on google, and some sites syndicate the content, but as far as generating any legit interest from the press they're just not a reliable way to go.

The answer is to develop a press list and contact them individually.

And it'll do no good to send your press release to my Mother, she wouldn't want it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Now, y'all don't all talk at once...

</comment><comment><USER6> PRWeb

<comment><AUTHOR> Can't beat the price. I just wonder if it reaches anyone...It's a great interface, and has the best user experience of all of the news wire type companies I've seen, but it's also free...and since anyone can send out a press release any time they feel like it, for absolutely no cost, it pretty much guarantees nobody is paying attention. Or am I missing something?</comment></comment>


How many users does GitHub have right now? 15.82M and counting - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ankitaggarwal.me/technology/how-many-users-does-github-have-right-now <comment><USER2> > _Note: The total accounts would include the deactivated or deleted accounts > as well. So, it may not truly represent the number of active Github users._

Understatement of the century.

Counting on user IDs is an especially bad way of calculating users. I just used BigQuery to check the number of unique users in all of 2014 and there are only 3 million unique accounts who actually did something.

<comment><AUTHOR> I understand your point, and yes the active users for a particular period is going to be a lot less than the total number.

However, my goal here was to know about the total number of accounts existing on Github. I guess that the title could be changed to "How many accounts does the Github have right now?", that would do the justice.

Btw, I didn't know about BigQuery. It is pretty amazing and free. Thank you for sharing.

<comment><USER3> There's a free tier, but it's not free beyond that. Otherwise folks would be mining bitcoins using BigQuery UDFs :)</comment></comment></comment>


Why You Might Not Want to Believe Michael Baden on Epstein's Death - <AUTHOR> http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/10/why-to-be-skeptical-of-michael-baden-on-epsteins-death.html <comment><USER2> The post could be more shallow, but it would have to try hard...

A demotion 40+ years ago (which could have happened for whatever political reasons or intra-department vendettas), and a short firing 38 years ago based on what he said in an interview which was misconstrued and was recalled.

He might be good or bad at his job, but the article has zero substance.

</comment><comment><USER3> Now I'm suspicious that some person or group of people with a controlling interest in nymag.com was involved in the pedophile ring.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's an opinion, leave it at that. We all know Epstein was murdered.

<comment><USER5> We don't "know" for sure. Please don't speak for me or anyone else with an unconfirmed conspiracy answer.

<comment><USER6> At this point the claim that he committed suicide seems more like an unconfirmed conspiracy theory.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why do HN submissions come in waves? - <AUTHOR> Very often, the front page of HN seems to have a disproportionate amount of submissions around a particular topic. They are often related but not exactly the same... e.g. they might be "testing methodologies" or "language design" or around a particular but wide reaching tech like "Rust" or "React".<p>Just curious <comment><USER2> A few effects play a role I think:

Attention comes with news: i.e. if something releases a new major version, different new features could be discussed, people go look at it again because it is in the news and find interesting things to submit, ...

Submissions trigger other submissions about a topic when people remember posts about the same topic, or go researching it, or read through other posts on a submitted blog.

Our brains are really good at noticing this kind of thing whenever it appears, so it seems really common.</comment>


Zappos's Website Frozen for Two Years as It Integrates with Amazon (Oct. 2015) - <AUTHOR> http://highscalability.com/blog/2015/10/7/zapposs-website-frozen-for-two-years-as-it-integrates-with-a.html <comment><USER2> This didn't sound right to me. If it's true, and Amazon is tolerating it (i.e., believing the narrative), then Amazon may have peaked (something that I wouldn't have otherwise believed -- huge Amazon fan here).</comment>


Retired Atlanta professor sues Uber and Lyft, says they used his idea - <AUTHOR> https://www.ajc.com/news/retired-atlanta-professor-sues-uber-and-lyft-says-they-used-his-idea/gk3CAIXtGHhVq6vfJqhGcO/ <comment><USER2> Isn't patent trolling great? Someone who got an overly broad patent and didnt do any of the work to build a company now gets to waste everyone's time by claiming ownership of the idea, as if the idea of ridesharing is so revolutionary, and try to use it to get money he doesnt deserve. Especially insane considering that smartphones didnt exist in 1999 in the way that made uber and Lyft possible, and that the infrastructure required is far far more than just an app that connects drivers to riders (think about the payments infrastructure, pool, maps integration, etc)

<comment><USER3> How do you assess that it's "overly broad"?

His patent doesn't cover the concept of ride sharing. The patent even mentions that ride-sharing already existed.

Smartphones didn't exist, but the concept doesn't require smartphones. It can be done with "radio-capable personal digital assistants, and two-way pagers", which did exist.

The patent also isn't only about an app that connects drivers to riders. It includes payment infrastructure and pools. Map integration is not covered - that would likely count as a patent-able extension to this patent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Seems to be patent US6697730B2 - [https://patents.google.com/patent/US6697730B2/en?inventor=St...](https://patents.google.com/patent/US6697730B2/en?inventor=Stephen+Dickerson&oq=Stephen+Dickerson)

> A communications and computing based urban transit system based on digital > cellular communication, GPS locating technology, and digital computers to > provide real-time command and control of passengers and vehicles with the > objective of minimizing the social costs of urban transportation.</comment>


Google finally acknowledges that PHP exists - <AUTHOR> http://www.eschrade.com/page/google-finally-acknowledges-that-php-exists/

<comment><USER2> Aside from being extraordinarily late (PHP has been available on App Engine for quite some time, so its quite late for any story about that support with the claim that Google is only just acknowledging the existence of PHP), the article seems premised on the idea that the reason PHP was not on App Engine earlier than it was is that Google was somehow in denial about it existing.

I think its a lot more likely that App Engine was initially Google making internal infrastructure available external users and that the launch languages were set by what Google was using, not what Google was acknowledging existing in the external marketplace. The inclusion of PHP was one of many signs of the App Engine maturing as a product, but its prior exclusion wasn't Google denying that it exists.</comment>


Show HN: Free cloud server for life - <AUTHOR> https://www.cloudrino.net

<comment><USER2> "Free for life" reminds me of Joyent's Lifetime fiasco. That didn't go over so well.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyent#Lifetime_hosting_cris...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyent#Lifetime_hosting_crisis_and_relaunch_of_TextDrive)

</comment><comment><USER3> How can you ensure that the free offer will stay profitable for you?

</comment><comment><USER4> Cool! I signed up.

It seems to crash when encountering an email address with a + sign in it though, see [http://imgur.com/vpldMXV](http://imgur.com/vpldMXV)

</comment><comment><USER5> How long does it typically take for an invite to be delivered? I see myself in the queue, & I'm wondering how fast you're blasting through them all.

</comment><comment><USER6> Do you support Windows Server 2008 ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not at the moment, we intend to in coming months.</comment></comment>