Los Angeles in 2013 as Predicted in 1988 - <AUTHOR> http://documents.latimes.com/la-2013/

<comment><USER2> I think the real test of a futurist's predictions, in order to determine if we have in fact arrived in the future, is not to see what came true and what did not come true.

No, the real test is to see how many predicting things make you stop and say, "wait, they didn't already have that back then?"

I stopped several times at the 6AM section and realized I thought something predicted had _always_ worked that way. I would think this only works when the predictions are from before you were born, but I was certainly alive in 1988 and I can't for the life of me remember a time without smart thermostats that run on a schedule or coffee makers with simple timers. When you're astonished that something basic now wasn't already common when the prediction was made (within reason), that's when you're definitely living in the future, even if you're still waiting for your flying car.

<comment><USER3> Actually, they did have a lot of that back then, I'm not sure why the author thought it was so fantastically futuristic. Coffee makers with timers are old as dirt, and the heating system is not terribly more advanced than lots of systems in existence back then.

<comment><USER4> And, very pedantic point, but my current apartment's thermostat doesn't have a timer, either. "The future is unevenly distributed," I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wow, that is great. When people extrapolate out the bad things in their life to predict a dystopian future, they should read something like this. It totally reinforces the axiom that you can't know what you can't know. Or more simply you can't predict innovation. The only person who came even remotely close was John Brunner [1] whose novel "The Sheep Look Up" might seem obvious now but was written in _1972_.

I don't know what 25 years from now the world will look like but I am pretty sure that 99% of us trying to guess will get it wrong.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sheep_Look_Up>

<comment><USER6> From the Wikipedia description, I think "The Sheep Look Up" also didn't come remotely close.

"By the end of the book rioting and civil unrest sweep the United States, due to a combination of poor health, poor sanitation, lack of food, lack of services, ineffectiveness of services (medical, policing), disillusionment with government/companies, oppressive government, civil unrest, high incidence of birth defects (pollution-induced), and other factors; all services (military, government, private, infrastructure) break down."

The economy outside the valley sucks, but I think we're a long way from that description.

<comment><USER7> Here's something I've noticed about looking back at predictions of the future: They're all wrong, but some people are bound and determined to claim some of them are more-or-less accurate even if it means twisting the author's words beyond all reason. Therefore, someone who predicted a home news service based around everyone having a Telex terminal in their home will be hailed as predicting the Internet.

It's something that always happens. I don't know why.

<comment><USER8> This is why Nostradamus was one of the best at prediction, all of his predictions were incredibly vague when you look at them objectively and can be twisted to foretold almost any major world event.

<comment><USER9> Best? Or Worst? :P

A vague, unfailable prediction is terrible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> They seemed to do a lot of inserting of laser discs and paying money for 200 year old music.

 _Ito likes one symphony so much that Bill records the whole piece on a laser disc, telling the cable company to bill his bank account for the recording, and gives it to Ito as a gift._

In today's 2013, Bill's cable company is unlikely to allow the burning of discs, even at a price. If it does, it will be against the license agreement to give one as a gift. When Ito takes the disc back to Tokyo, it won't work due to region locking DRM.

Or maybe I'm too cynical. Ito can just pull up the info on the recording and torrent it himself from TPB.

<comment><USER11> Bill hands Ito a cd with a symphony and mp3s for 20 other albums burned on it and Ito shows him the Spotify play list on his iPhone that already has all of them on it.

<comment><USER12> The other day, my daughter brought me a CD off the shelf and asked me to play it. Well, the CD player was _all the way over there_ , terribly inconvenient, while my phone with Spotify was in my pocket. CD went back on the shelf, music played from the cloud.

The future is weird.

<comment><USER13> >>>The future is weird.

Now she's learned the lesson. Instead of buying you a CD next time, she'll just give you a list of music you might enjoy to stream.

Wow, the future gets even weirder.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> "For instance, Schinella predicts, we may one day be able to drive around Los Angeles in a "sports-utility" vehicle that can go from being a two-seat sports car to a beach buggy--thanks to a plug-in module."

Amazing that they can be so right and so wrong at the same time.

<comment><USER15> Along the same lines, I liked the part about the husband trying to phone his wife and not reaching her (she wasn't at work or at home) but hooks up to his networked fridge and gets an inventory remotely.

Totally underestimates telecommunications, but grossly overestimates standard fridge technology. :-) (though my parents _do_ have a Samsung fridge that can tweet for some reason).

<comment><USER16> Just out of curiosity, what is it tweeting about? I've always been interested by what refrigerators thinks.

<comment><USER17> "LOL, owner just did this!! <http://goo.gl/ZTlJ8> #stupidhumans"

"@oven you're lookin hot today"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> One thing they got as exact as you can conceive:

"Population is the primary consideration. Currently 12.6 million, it's expected to reach 18.3 million in the Los Angeles area by 2010."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles> "The city is the focal point of the larger Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana metropolitan statistical area and Greater Los Angeles Area region, which contain 12,828,837 and nearly 18 million people respectively as of 2010, making it one of the most populous metropolitan areas in the world[6] and the second largest in the United States."

</comment><comment><USER19> Reading through the sci-fi tropes of this article, they could have just gone with "2013 is the same as 1988 but with networked computers", and saved a great deal of paper.

25 years is not remotely long enough for a city in the developed world to have more than a smattering of new buildings, and yet the future LA they came up with is utterly transfigured into a Syd Mead utopia. I love a bit of Mead, but Blade Runner was set in 2019, and I'm not sure that our attack ships have even _reached_ the Shoulder of Orion yet, much less caught fire!

So what will 2038 look like? Pretty much like 2013, but most of the cars will be electric. But they'll still _look_ like cars, not space-cruisers, and they won't fly (often).

<comment><USER20> Right. The only technology that has over-delivered in the last 25 years is computer hardware (MIPS, networking, and storage). Of course, this has had incredible nth order effects on society, but the rest of tech (cancer research, energy, transportation) is not ridiculously beyond 25 years ago.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Viewing page source reveals: <http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/612500/la-2013.pdf>

I guess I should also mention what's at the end too:

        <!--Good with data?-->
        <!--Tired of grinding on the same old apps?-->
        <!--Want to use your skills in defense of truth, justice and the American way?-->
        <!--Email email@example.com and let me know you're out there.-->

</comment><comment><USER21> It seems the least accurate parts of predictions like these are always the parts that would require billions in infrastructure changes or new construction. We simply don't build stuff that fast anymore or have the drive to pay for it. Metro Rail is the only large scale, new infrastructure project I can think of in LA over that time, but it's still based on old technologies used in other cities for decades.

<comment><USER22> > It seems the least accurate parts of predictions like these are always the > parts that would require billions in infrastructure changes or new > construction.

There are also the predictions that are never made because they would require "billions in infrastructure changes or new construction", like the Internet, which no one predicted.

<comment><USER23> The difference is that projects like the internet were incremental. At no single point did it require "Billions in infrastructure"; to start it basically required just a couple of modems (which aren't fundamentally complex) and it ran off the existing POTS lines. It could grow organically, unlike major construction works.

<comment><USER22> > The difference is that projects like the internet were incremental.

That's the funny part -- one could argue that, because it was incremental, someone ought to have seen what was coming. But instead it was much like the early days of television -- the experts thought it was a gimmick, a fad that people would get tired of, then return to radio and printed matter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Wow. That smart car piece almost describes the Tesla. Especially the whole part about there being more storage space. It made me think of front cargo area on the Tesla since there is no engine.

However, they failed to predict that half of America still believes bigger, louder, and burn more fuel is the way to go... Not to mention actively work to suppress progress in this area.

<comment><USER25> I don't understand. Pick up any sci-fi movie, article or a book describing 25 years from now and it will come to life. Doesn't our curiosity about future work like a catalyst for the mechanism of self-fulfilling prophecy?

25 years seem hardly news worthy. Had it been 100 years ago, well yes, that could probably be a startling one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I find it interesting that as recent as 25 years ago they were still suggesting that we would used advanced technology to print off a newspaper instead of read it off a screen.

A lot of even older future predictions contained the same thing. It must not have been until the web come along and got widespread adoption that people got it.

<comment><USER3> It comes of people stopping too soon when asking "why?" From the perspective of 1988 it would seem relatively unreasonable to read an entire newspaper on a monitor. And one might easily imagine a future where the contents of a newspaper could be available digitally without re-examining that conclusion. A monitor then was low-resolution, had poor color reproduction, was stationary and heavy (being CRT based), and was an expensive shared family resource. Of course today displays can be cheap, lightweight, thin, portable, and high resolution, so some of the advantages of print fade away.

It's funny, in 1988 Star Trek: The Next Generation was running, and they had handheld and tablet computers, but few people in 1988 thought we would have such things in a mere 25 years instead of in the far future.

<comment><USER9> Star trek missed somethings with thus tablet/pads. Each one seemed to only store 1 books worth of content. You can sometimes see people in the show using or handling a dozen tablets/pads. They seemed to miss that storage size would increase a lot.

<comment><USER27> If you could have unlimited free iPads, maybe you'd do the same thing. It's a more intuitive UI paradigm than switching apps!

<comment><USER28> But there is a cost -- the characters would often have trouble carrying so many pads (or that many pads + a cup of coffee, thanks Janeway).

<comment><USER27> Each padd is just as capable, people can just choose to use more than one at a time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Eh. Take away everything cool from Blade Runner and that's what actually happened.

</comment><comment><USER30> Air pollution has dropped 50% judging by the chart in this article. Much better than the LA Times prediction.

[http://www.mnn.com/green- tech/transportation/stories/study-c...](http://www.mnn.com/green- tech/transportation/stories/study-cleaner-cars-have-reduced-some-los-angeles- air-pollution-lev)

I guess they were too optimistic on the home robot. Hopefully, they will start to become useful in the next few years. I personally would like to see Microsoft, Google and the other big tech brands launch home robots.

<comment><USER3> I think home robots are a non-starter. They're seductive ideas because they duplicate things we already know (servants). But robots and automation don't work the way humans do, and there's no reason to assume that there will be a point where that stops being true. It used to be that if you were wealthy you had servants, or a service, who would clean your clothing by hand, wash your dishes, cook your meals, etc. Today automation has changed much of that. You have specialized devices which make washing clothes and dishes far less of a chore. You also have innovations in the kitchen which make cooking far less of a chore (everything from electric ovens to stand mixers to refrigeration to a wide variety of prepared or partially prepared foods and so forth) and you have a significant increase in the ability to acquire pre-made foods (at restaurants, fast food places, delivery, frozen foods, etc.)

By the same token I don't imagine that further automation in the home will necessarily take an anthropomorphic shape. It'll be things we haven't even thought of yet, tasks we don't appreciate are time sinks or perhaps don't consider to be automate-able. Look at the roomba, for example.

<comment><USER31> I beg to differ. We already have walking and object handling robots and their agility is rapidly increasing. In the future we will have to deal with the aging population. As the quality of life increases and more people get university education, the rate of birth declines. Then who will take care of all those old men and women? We need household robots and they will be invented in Japan if not in some other place. They will be a good expensive item to mass produce and sell.

<comment><USER32> Japanese are incredibly xenophobic, it makes more financial sense just to import housekeepers from the Philippines or Indonesia, but many don't like the idea of that so they'll develop household robots instead (lucky for us!). Also, the rise of China set manufacturing robots back by about 10 or 15 years; we are just now beginning to recover.

<comment><USER33> _Japanese are incredibly xenophobic, it makes more financial sense just to import housekeepers from the Philippines or Indonesia, but many don't like the idea of that so they'll develop household robots instead_

With the housing so limited in places like Tokyo, wouldn't it make more financial sense to get a robot you can store in a closet than hire a live-in housekeeper?

<comment><USER9> Sure, people like coming up with reasons why they _aren't_ racist and xenophobic, and how it's perfectly logical, see?!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I forgot how pleasing to read were those news articles compared to today's fast-paced news delivery mechanisms.

</comment><comment><USER3> Moderately entertaining. It's interesting how many things they got "right" but missed the point entirely. For example, somehow the kid has a hand-held computer but the authors fail to grok the implications. Also, I find it amusing that the authors imagined live-in robots and yet can think of little better use to put them to than pouring a bowl of cereal in the morning. I can fairly confidently say that if there is one chore that doesn't need automating it is pouring cereal.

It's also interesting how pessimistic the authors were about things like pollution (smog, ozone layer), traffic, and water supply.

<comment><USER7> > It's also interesting how pessimistic the authors were about things like > pollution (smog, ozone layer), traffic, and water supply.

I'm always amused at how many people in the 1970s were predicting global famine to hit the far-future world of a decade ago. Food lines and meat rationing and everything else in NYC, 2001.

Instead, we got an epidemic of Type II diabetes. So it goes.

<comment><USER35> Something to consider when reading all the doom'n'gloom climate change stuff today.

Things change, including change.

<comment><USER7> Except AGW is massively well-supported by the evidence.

[http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for- globa...](http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global- warming.htm)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_c...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change)

<http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/>

<comment><USER36> The extent of the consequences 50 years from now and our ability to deal with said consequences are rather unknown.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> The smart car blurb is prescient.

Not so much on how Sports Utility vehicles work, but about a sonar shield (proximity braking) and computer system optimizations, as well as the diverse range of car types to fit niche needs. Pretty awesome. Obviously this makes some sense since the people they interviewed were working on the bleeding edge of car development at the time, but still, most of this stuff didn't manifest heavily even in the 90s.

<comment><USER3> I don't think it's as prescient as it seems. Imagine someone making the same claim that there would be a diverse range of car types to fit niche needs from the perspective of 1963 to 1988. They'd be just as right. In 1988 people drove sedans, and compact cars, and 2 door sport-coupes, and luxury cars, and pick- up trucks, and vans, and mini-vans, and 4-wheel drive vehicles, and muscle cars, and station wagons, and so forth. The diversity of cars today is hardly greater than it was in 1988.

Also, things like automatic braking and computer optimization of cars were old hat by 1988. Electronic fuel injection was introduced in mass market cars in the '70s and commonplace by the late '80s. And radar based automatic collision avoidance systems were patented back in the mid '70s.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> And I always imagined LA would end up something like this <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116225/>

</comment><comment><USER13> >>>Bill marvels at the way the neighborhood sleaze has been systematically cleaned up, thanks to massive redevelopment among Sunset Boulevard.

Yes. Now Bill can marvel at the Corporate Playpen it's become, just like New York's Times Square.

Really, is that a future _real_ people want?

<comment><USER39> I guess you could redefine people who want that as not "real" people, eh?

<comment><USER13> Tourists and outsiders love Corporate Times Square. Native New Yorkers loathe it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Robo-pet anyone? Disruption of the nannies' market.

<comment><USER13> Everyone has forgotten Nolan Bushnell's Petster?

Hackers Get Cat Of Their Own [http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-08-14/entertainment/...](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1985-08-14/entertainment/8502220963_1_carson- pirie-scott-cat-pets)

There's not even a Wikipedia entry for it. Shame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Cool - I can have my robo-butler read this article to me while we're jetpacking our way to the spaceport.

</comment><comment><USER42> The article page is crashing Chrome on my iPhone 5. Is it just me?

</comment><comment><USER43> What about "Los Angeles, November 2019"?

</comment><comment><USER44> This is kiddie stuff compared to Huxley's writings ; )</comment>


How a White Mountains trek turned into a survival test - <AUTHOR> http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/style/2014/05/23/brutal-cold-bad-luck-and-bad-decisions-turn-white-mountains-trek-into-survival-test/e11bhDs1uY5HRw5GOZ7vyM/story.html <comment><USER2> It's not usually one thing going wrong that gets you it's the next or the one after that.

I nearly got hypothermia a few years ago.

I'd gotten into cycling and been the tough northerner (England not America) that I am I went for a ride in the north Yorkshire hills on a sunny winters day.

Got about 45 miles into the ride and I got a flat, no problem I have a spare so I swapped them out and headed back and then the sky opened freezing rain/sleet and the wind crept up, again not a problem as I was wearing wet weather but then I got another flat (road bikes are a git at times) and I didn't have a spare tube.

So now I'm 10 miles away from anywhere I know on a freezing cold winters day wearing gear designed to keep you warm when you are moving and working hard with a bike that is useless and wearing clipless cycling shoes (not designed to be walked in) and because of the cold my phone battery (which was never good) was dying and it's getting dark.

I used my bike tool to take the cleats of my shoes and set of back towards the last village I'd been through, it took hours with temp's around 0C in a 20-30 mile an hour wind so the wind chill was horrible and since I'd planned on been home before it got dark my lights where sat on my computer desk at home.

I got into the village about 8pm and the little old lady in the local pub took one look at me and went and got towels, a hot drink and some of the nicest chocolate I've ever tasted and an hour later I was ok but damn that was unpleasant.

\---

Now when I ride alone in winter I always ride with my lights on the bike even during the day, I use a medium sized backpack to carry: fully charged spare phone battery, puncture repair kit and two tubes, 3-4 bars of kendal mint cake, spare batteries for lights, thermal socks, small towel, pair of windproof overtrousers (lightweight and waterproof) and a pair of hiking trainers.

<comment><USER3> Garbage bags can serve as rain cover or waterproof sleeping bag protection in a pinch, although they're not very resistant to puncture packing a few can save your bacon, especially with a few sticks/supports to build a one-time shelter against wind and water.

<comment><USER4> Using trash bags meant for trash compactors is a big step up in puncture resistance. They are typically 2-3times thicker than the typical trash bags you find and not much bigger or heavier when packed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This guy still apparently didn't learn his lesson.

"...he would set a point of no return and learn more about trail conditions. "And probably take another trail.""

BUZZ, wrong answer. Trail conditions change. People make mistakes. People break their legs. Freak weather rolls in.

The right answer is to always be prepared to hunker down for a couple days. And grow some situational awareness -- it's never ok to let anyone in the group be wet and cold in the wilderness. By the time somebody's sock is frozen to their boot all the alarm bells should be ringing in your head and you're lighting a fire and setting up camp.

"But what I didn't realize was the danger of hypothermia."

That's unforgivable. What other danger rates mentioning? Even in summer people die of hypothermia all the time. In bitter cold, in deep snow, and it never crossed your mind?

<comment><USER6> Yep - poor leadership and preparation on display here. He should have led the group at all times. He didn't seem to be fully aware of the weather conditions. And everyone should have had a space blanket and some garbage bags. At least two people should have had fire steel. And at least two people should have a machete or small ax. It's these shortish hikes that are the most dangerous because you think nothing can happen to you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> A great case of cascading failure and bad decision making. A few things stand out.

\- They made several bad mistakes. The tag line of the article said, "and how grit ultimately got the group out of a frozen labyrinth" but it was luck, not grit. The bad decisions were downplayed in this write up.

\- They didn't have the right gear and weren't prepared (e.g. keep at least some water and batteries close to your body). One energy bar?

\- They shouldn't have pushed on at night. Even for a day hike in the snow I carry a shovel and a couple of foil blankets and know how to rig a shelter. They would have done better to stick together (not to split up), know ahead of time who makes the final decision, and to have waited the night out.

\- I don't remember the white mountains as well, but the places I backpack in winter (e.g. minnesota, california, new mexico, colorado) I use a topo and a compass and only use the GPS for back up.

\- the three times I've felt "wow, there's a good chance chance I won't survive this" my overwhelming thought has been embarrassment at my own stupidity. Two of the three times the initial failure was "set out too late." And it was always multiple, cascading failures -- typically you should be able to deal with one or two things going wrong -- same as with engineering.

</comment><comment><USER8> Having hiked in the White Mountains with a small group for 6 days, it sounds like the leader of this group underestimated a mountain range containing Mt Mansfield, where the coldest wind chill has ever been recorded.

Just because these mountains aren't any taller than 7000 feet doesn't mean it isn't one of the most rugged in the world. The Jet Stream is particularly low in this part of the world which is the reason of the extreme cold.

Sometimes, vanity can be deadly.

<comment><USER9> Wow sounds like a nice trek. Those are famously steep, aren't they?

<comment><USER8> Not so much steep as Rugged, dangerous, and extremely unpredictable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Apparently not one of these veterans thought to bring a PLB ([http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=plb](http://www.amazon.com/s/?field- keywords=plb)).

<comment><USER11> I was going to post the same thing. My family uses the SPOT messenger. Whenever one of my brothers embarks on a dangerous trip, he takes it with him. Recently my brother kayaked through the Grand Canyon alone in the winter. Every day he would "check in" and we could see where he was camped and how much progress he made down the river that day.

<comment><USER12> I used a SPOT tracker when motorbiking through Africa, the company provides a Google map page that updates every 2 min. Family back home loved watching that page.

Afaik the emergency button (not the one to your family but to support services) would only work in the US, couldn't imagine a helicopter picking me up in Mauritania.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As a backcountry skier in New England, I can attest that it is surprisingly easy to get yourself into high-consequence situations.

The mountains are smaller and the states are more densely populated, but that doesn't mean that the wilderness can be taken lightly, particularly in winter. Especially for a sport that places value in isolation ("first tracks" are highly sought and many locals have their own secret powder stashes) you'll often find yourself in situations where an injury or gear failure can mean serious mortal peril. Even if you're lucky enough to have cell service, batteries don't hold their charge in extreme cold, more often than not, you're on your own.

These hobbies are, in fact, dangerous and the consequences are real. They are also incredibly fun. You've just got to know what you're getting yourself into.

</comment><comment><USER14> So the mistakes here were getting off into the deep snow on a trail and continuing forward hoping the trail would get better. Add in a 15-mile hike over somewhat unfamiliar ground, and you've got a party slogging it out through the dark desperately trying to make it out of the woods.

The good news is that they always knew where they were -- they had GPS. Also they were always within 15 miles or so of some kind of civilization. So I'm with the professor: there was no danger of not getting out, as long as nobody just sat down and stopped moving.

If it hadn't been for the GPS, I might have gone the shelter route, but that's a huge time sink. You're better off just doing what they did: kept slugging away at it.

Note: I'm not trying to downplay the dangers of hypothermia; that stuff can kill you. But I would think that any overnight hiking trip in the snowy mountains would face this, so to me it doesn't look like a new problem that emerged as part of the rest of the adventure.

<comment><USER15> > Also they were always within 15 miles or so of some kind of civilization. So > I'm with the professor: there was no danger of not getting out, as long as > nobody just sat down and stopped moving.

I think you are underestimating how difficult it can be to travel in terrain with a deep snowpack, downed trees, and no clear trail markers. It sounds like their gps batteries were on their last bars, so gps was not a given for their entire trek out.

Deep snow can make a 100-yard stretch take an hour. They said that every downed tree took the group 10 minutes. That sounds like an exagerration while reading comfortably in front of a computer, but having been there myself that's a realistic statement.

I took a summer trek on a less-traveled spur trail in the White Mountains one summer. There were downed trees every 20-50 feet for a couple miles. I was working at a camp the whole summer, so I was on trails every day and in quite good shape for traveling quickly. Even so, that was a long day! 15 miles in harsh winter conditions can easily mean a very real danger of not getting out.

I also spent several hours crossing a small, open basin in the Colorado Rockies one spring. The snow was waist-deep, with a crust that wouldn't quite support my weight, and heavy snow underneath. Every step was a significant effort. That stretch would have taken 10 minutes in the summer, and 3 minutes on skis with better snow. Traveling in the mountains in winter is entirely different than it is in the summer.

<comment><USER9> To your point - I recently read an account of the infamous Andean airplane crash (cannibalism, etc)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster)

Three men struck out to find help for the group after they realized that they were not going to be rescued. They hiked for 3 days to get to the top of the closest peak. From that vantage they realized it was a much longer trip and they did not have supplies enough for 3 men. They sent one guy back. It took him roughly an hour (on a makeshift sled) to backtrack what it took them 3 days to climb.

"On the third day of the trek, Parrado reached the top of the mountain before the other two. Stretched before him as far as the eye could see were more mountains. In fact, he had just climbed one of the mountains (as high as 4,650 metres (15,260 ft)) which forms the border between Argentina and Chile, meaning that they were still tens of kilometres from the green valleys of Chile. After spying a small "Y" in the distance, he gauged that a way out of the mountains must lie beyond, and refused to give up hope. Knowing that the hike would take more energy than they had originally planned for, Parrado and Canessa sent Vizintín back to the crash site, as they were rapidly running out of rations. Since the return was entirely downhill, it only took him one hour to get back to the fuselage using a makeshift sled."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> When cell phone signal is low, do not try to ring, send text message! It has much lower network overhead and has better chances to be delivered!

Sometimes you can even send/receive text messages from an airplane.

<comment><USER17> While we're giving cell phone tips: in an emergency, you should dial 911 even if you don't think your phone has service. It will try to connect to competitors cell towers that would normally be ignored.

Likewise, you can call 911 on a "disconnected" phone or one with no SIM card.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Link to the lobsterman story mentioned in the article:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/magazine/a-speck-in-the- se...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/magazine/a-speck-in-the-sea.html)

Terrific read and I think it may have been posted here.

</comment><comment><USER19> A great example of the difference between academic knowledge and real world experience.

<comment><USER20> Be careful not to write it off too lightly. As far as I can see from the article, the professor _did_ have real world experience, and still got into bad trouble by being overconfident.

<comment><USER21> Still massively overconfident and un-prepared. Its easy to have "experience" but be lacking in the correct type of experience. Simple examples here: treefall. His previous experience was in the alpine, so maybe he wasn't expecting this? Also, its not clear how much basic experience he had was in the back-country (self-supported). That would seem to explain his lack of basic preperation (re: 10 essentials). Nor is it clear how well he studied his maps--lots of water-crossings--some of these issues should not have been surprises.

<comment><USER20> Yep. The more general lesson I see to be learned from this story is: never take inherently dangerous activities or situations lightly, even if you've done it a few times before and nothing seemed to go wrong.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> There was a story of a guy in South Carolina a few weeks back who went out in the woods with 2 kids and had to be rescued. He was incredibly unprepared and was lost with young kids for ~ 2days. There is a distortion, where map distance and proximity to civilzation gives a false sense of security and we under prepare.

These stories are useful. Both to get ideas and to validate/ challenge choices I make when going hiking. To critique it is not to say "Look at that dumass, my hero Bear Grillz would have known what to do..." but rather "Wow - this can happen so easily and relatively close to warm beds, even to experienced folks"

And this guy sounds much more experienced than I am. But:

When you do this kind of hiking you register the route with someone who expects you to be out by such and such a time... Last hike I wnet on my friend logged our route in a trail book. It is easy for someone to get injured, cross country skiing will give you nasty twists and breaks.

Fire equipment? They are in a pine forest and could have gotten a fire going.

Also those aluminum foil-like emergency blankets - they are so small and light, there is space in any pack. Came in handy on my last overnight as a sleepingbag liner as the night got colder than expected.

How/Why did his feet get wet? Crosscountry ski boots are usually a Gortex-y material with a hard base and a cleat for the bnding. Wonder if he fell in a stream, etc. If so that is time to stop and make a fire. Get warm and dry.

I am curious what they were wearing. It was warm enough that some of the streams were not ice covered - so probably below freezing at night but with normal walking they should have stayed warm.

Hypothermia can happen when the air temp is quite a bit above freezing esp. - if you are wet.

Last winter I was on well marked xcountry ski trails in the Adirondacks (NY State) with my boys and another father and children. The loop took longer than expected and we spent the last two hours getting back in the dark. No cell service and we got off the skis. I bound all the skis together and carried them and we hiked back.

It was well below freezing and was concerned about the little toes and fingers. Since we had registered the hike a snowmobile came out for us and caught us in the last km - didn't take us back though, the bastard. :)

I did not have a pack on but had compass, firestarter and a few emerg blankets in my coat. I had two small LEDs - I gave one to the other father and we used them to check for blazes and read map. WHen the smowmobile came they were useful for signaling. Plus a metal water bottle to melt snow if needed...

So that situation worked out ok. I am not really comparing it to the situation in the article. I was glad to have the foil blankets and firestarter, in case.

My wife says I overpack (and she is not wrong). We have animated discussions before going out. "Why do you need this rope?" "I dunno - that's the point" "What are you going to do with this axe?" "Etc..."

An overly heavy pack is a liability as well. I could not keep up with my friend on my last overnight. We also had to climb cliffs and I seriously considered tieing off the bag and pulling it up the cliff after I got up. (with the paracord my wife was complaining about - ;) )

Also when you fall extra weight increases the impact... And I fall on occaision. So I must learn to reduce.

But, I think if I were in that group - I would be angry with the lack of prep - angry at my self mostly.

<comment><USER15> > I seriously considered tieing off the bag and pulling it up the cliff after > I got up.

I'm not sure about your particular situation, but that's a clear sign that people are getting into a situation where they should seriously consider turning back. I have worked in mountain rescue for a while now, and that's a common story when people end up needing help.

If you have to take your pack off to go up something you weren't planning to go up, you should probably head back the way you came. Otherwise you can easily find yourself unable to go up any higher, and unable to get back down on your own. It's way easier to go up than it is to go down.

<comment><USER9> Good point.

I was with a more experienced friend who was carrying less weight. I never had to take my pack off. If I had thought I would need to I would have shed some non-polluting weight. I was carrying 6L water at that point and there was the prospect of potable springs on the trail ahead. We also had h2o filters...

That hike taught me about weight. I need to pack less on overnights.

Where do you do mountain rescue?

<comment><USER15> I live in southeast Alaska. I've been mostly inactive the last few years because I had a kid, but I was pretty active for about ten years. I'm getting back into it as my kid grows up. Rescue work has been one of the most interesting and rewarding things I've ever done.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Given its high profile, including the linked article in the Boston Globe, this incident will likely be analyzed in the Accidents column of a forthcoming issue of Appalachia Journal. [1] I don't expect that the analysis will let this group off lightly. Both the participants and commenters here have already pointed out basic mistakes that were made by the group.

This newspaper account lacks information important to understanding the incident, such as the temperature and forecast. Additionally, snow conditions could have been reported by checking with the Forest Service, the Appalachian Mountain Club, and the Mount Washington Observatory. Analysis of this incident in Appalachia Journal will likely include such details. Winter conditions in the White Mountains are highly variable from year to year and have a tremendous impact on the outcome of backcountry trips.

One thing that hasn't been touched on either by the article or by the commenters—they were doing this as a ski trip. It doesn't say what kind of boots they had, but cross country ski boots tend to have less insulation than winter mountaineering boots (often much less). While temperatures at nearby Whitefield airport weren't bad during the daylight hours of the 16th, they went below zero (F) in the early hours of the 17th. [2] There's no way I'd want anyone in my group wearing lightly insulated cross country boots in below zero temperatures.

It is significant that the trail wasn't broken out. That it took them nine hours to go from Stillwater Junction to the closed Franconia Brook campsite indicates that snow and trail conditions were terrible.

I think that both the article and commenters here overemphasize the value of GPS. The route is not difficult to follow. Most of their second day was spent following a watershed downstream. For this you need a GPS? Warm boots are far more useful (note that the article says that a GPS failed). There is no cell reception where they were, either. When (not 'if') the electronics fail will you be able to cope?

The most important thing that this group did right was to get themselves out under their own power. People who come from urban areas have an incredible temptation to dial 9-1-1 or push a magic "rescue me" button on a PLB device. There is no fleet of helicopters standing by to come get you.

So many people come to New Hampshire to hike or enjoy the outdoors that there are numerous incidents requiring rescue. This has stressed the budgets of the state and federal agencies involved and taxed the energy of the volunteer organizations. Some of the incidents are due to ignorance, negligence, or irresponsibility. People discount the danger to which they expose their rescuers, but meanwhile most of the NH SAR community is aware that volunteer Albert Dow was killed taking part in a search. [3]

New Hampshire started the hikeSafe program [4] due to the increase in the number of search and rescue incidents. It's disappointing that this article didn't interview any SAR personnel or people with winter hiking experience to highlight this group's mistakes. Nor does it list any sources of backcounty education, such as the AMC New Hampshire Chapter's Winter Workshops. [5] It's typical for downcountry media to make heroes of participants and treat such incidents as adventures rather than discuss errors, and this article somewhat follows that pattern.

[1] [http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/](http://www.outdoors.org/publications/appalachia/)

[2] [http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KHIE/2014/2/17/D...](http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KHIE/2014/2/17/DailyHistory.html)

[3] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Herr#Early_life](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Herr#Early_life)

[4] [http://www.hikesafe.com/](http://www.hikesafe.com/)

[5] [http://amc-nh.org/committee/excursions/index- winterworkshop....](http://amc-nh.org/committee/excursions/index- winterworkshop.php)

<comment><USER23> This is what I was thinking too, as a Norwegian that's been skiing my whole life. A 15-mile trek in temperatures close to zero F is not something you'll do lightly. Sounds like at least the trip leaders were in great physical shape but not with the right equipment for this kind of trip.

If you're going in conditions with lots of poweder snow and no trails, you need proper mountaineering skis if you want to do it halfway comfortably. E.g. something like this: [http://www.asnes.com/produkt/combat- nato/](http://www.asnes.com/produkt/combat-nato/), that's sufficiently wide and works with skins in rough terrain, etc. Otherwise you'll sink through on every step and waste lots of energy. Also, as you say, the boots are better insulated. Standard touring BC bindings will freeze if you get snow in them, making is tough to get your ski back on. Taking _off_ your skis and walking when the snow conditions are anything less than hard and frozen? Sounds painful.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What tech stack do most startups use? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Hi, this is a good platform to see which company is using what tech stack: [https://stackshare.io/stacks](https://stackshare.io/stacks)

</comment><comment><USER3> You may use [https://builtwith.com/](https://builtwith.com/) to find out what a website is built with.</comment>


Why Clojure doesn't need invokedynamic, but it might be nice - <AUTHOR> http://blog.fogus.me/2011/10/14/why-clojure-doesnt-need-invokedynamic-but-it-might-be-nice/ <comment><USER2> A response from Charlie Nutter (JRuby): [http://blog.headius.com/2011/10/why- clojure-doesnt-need-invo...](http://blog.headius.com/2011/10/why-clojure- doesnt-need-invokedynamic.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> Just want to clear up a few things here. This article focuses entirely on the HotSpot JVM. There are other JVMs out there that support invokedynamic, and they don't all work the same way. Also saying that Java isn't a consumer of invokedynamic is only true currently and is likely to change in the future.

The more people use invokedynamic, the more the compiler people are going to look at it. Not to mention that the current way things are done (at least in JRuby), the compiler basically hits a wall in a lot of cases because it can't decide what to inline and where to get it. Invokedynamic will (with a bit of VM magic) make those optimizations a lot easier for the compiler to do.

<comment><USER4>
        Java isn't a consumer of invokedynamic
        is only true currently and is likely to
        change in the future.

Well, I can only speak about the present. I definitely hope that invokedynamic (and based on the comments to the post itself, this appears to be the thinking) is consumed by Java as such a scenario eliminates that particular misgiving.</comment></comment>


Exploiting Cannabinoid-Induced Cytotoxic Autophagy to Drive Melanoma Cell Death - <AUTHOR> http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/vaop/naam/pdf/jid201545a.pdf

<comment><USER2> Reminds me of this: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/marijuana-lung- canc...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/marijuana-lung- cancer_n_3474960.html)</comment>


WhatsApp Is Down - <AUTHOR> https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/1309560/WhatsApp-down-not-connecting-checking-for-new-messages-error <comment><USER2> [https://downdetector.com/status/whatsapp/](https://downdetector.com/status/whatsapp/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Only four days after the major facebook SDK crash.

</comment><comment><USER4> Came on here just to check on it. Thanks for the heads up.

</comment><comment><USER5> People are fairly used to Whatsapp being super reliable.

My wife and her friends blamed everything but WhatsApp for being down (wifi, 3G/LTE, phone).</comment>


Equifax hack report sheds light on firm's dysfunctional IT department - <AUTHOR> https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3062853/equifax-hack-report-sheds-light-on-firms-dysfunctional-it-department <comment><USER2> I wonder what actions a 'perfect' government would take in this situation? This is a serious question, I am really not sure that these types of 'hacks' will be prevented even with a stellar IT department, what can be done about it?

p.s. GAO report is here linked in first paragraph [0]

[0] [https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/694158.pdf](https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/694158.pdf)</comment>


Hope for 'end of Aids' is disappearing, experts warn - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jul/31/aids-could-spiral-out-control-africa-again-experts-warn <comment><USER3> the ugly truth that everyone knows but suppresses: ending HIV is completely impossible without massively increasing the level of human development (social, economic, industrial, medical) in the problem areas.

go ahead and throw money at the scientists; they need it and can put it to good use. go ahead and throw money at testing people for HIV. go ahead and throw money at treating people for HIV. these things are necessary but not sufficient for HIV to be conquered.

like all infectious diseases, HIV devastates the fringes, the poor, and the ignorant. without building roads, hospitals, drug factories, hygiene education programs, disease education programs, universities, etc-- without building a new, more advanced society-- the problem populations will forever be problems. without modernizing backward cultures, they cannot be saved from HIV. this, of course, is extremely patriarchal, and expensive to implement. but HIV won't be stopped otherwise.

a first-world level application of public-health force is necessary to control HIV on their home turf, nevermind end it. why would anyone think that ending HIV would require anything other than 100% organized mobilization and a long term commitment?

</comment><comment><USER4> Hmm... I'm surprised by this. At least in the US AIDS is under much more control, is it not? My fiancee treats AIDS/HIV and has never mentioned "resistance" except when referring to antibiotics. This seems more like a funding issue, though I could be wrong.

All told, this is sad. Aids is the most easily preventable disease. Most of her patients know exactly when they got it.

<comment><USER5> A few things are at play here.

First, there are a number of different forms of HIV. HIV-1 is what's most prevalent in the US; HIV-2 is mostly restricted to sub-Saharan Africa, but a lot of HIV cases in Africa are HIV-1. (These can be broken down further - <USER2> example, there are about seven groupings of HIV-1 - but HIV-1 vs. HIV-2 is the most important distinction). Treatment for HIV-1 and HIV-2 can vary, and a _lot_ less research has been done into the types of HIV that are common in Africa and India.

Secondly, yes, _AIDS_ (as opposed to HIV) is "mostly under control" in the US. There are still cases of AIDS in the US, but they tend to be in populations that are undertreated medically. For people who identify HIV early on, while their CD4s are still manageable, if they stick to a treatment regimen, they're far more likely to die from something else. In fact, people in the US who are HIV+ and under active treatment now live slightly _longer_ lives than their HIV- counterparts.

> Aids is the most easily preventable disease.

AIDS is somewhat preventable (for people who already have HIV), but it requires an active and ongoing treatment regimen, as well as periodic medical care from a clinician. The funding for both of these is an issue, particularly in developing nations.

HIV itself is somewhat preventable, though, which is why pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP) has been met with such excitement from HIV prevention efforts[0]. Not only is it over 99.9% effective[1], but it piggybacks off of _the exact same drugs_ that are already used for treatment of HIV. It's much more effective to utilize the same distribution network for both treatment _and_ prevention than it is to try to have separate efforts that exist side- by-side, but do very different work.

[0] The AHF is the lone exception, but they've turned into the anti-vaxxers of HIV/AIDS prevention[2]. I don't consider them to be an HIV prevention group anymore; they've done far more work recently to _worsen_ the HIV/AIDS epidemic than they have to stop it.

[1] There has only been _one_ infection recorded from a patient who was actively taking PrEP, and he was on an off-label treatment (PrEP is not approved for prophylactic purposes in his country), so it's unclear how typical his medication schedule was.

[2] See in particular #2 and #3: [http://www.hivplusmag.com/opinion/2015/06/24/op- ed-10-worst-...](http://www.hivplusmag.com/opinion/2015/06/24/op-ed-10-worst- offenses-aids-healthcare-foundations-michael-weinstein)

<comment><USER6> > people in the US who are HIV+ and under active treatment now live slightly > longer lives than their HIV- counterparts

This sounded implausible, so I looked for a source. This page says "the average life expectancy of a 20-year-old person in the U.S. or Canada who began [anti-HIV therapy] shortly after he or she became HIV positive should be around 70", which is less than the life expectancy at birth of U.S. men:

[http://www.catie.ca/en/treatmentupdate/treatmentupdate-200/a...](http://www.catie.ca/en/treatmentupdate/treatmentupdate-200/anti- hiv-agents/longer-life-expectancy-hiv-positive-people-north)

They do mention a plausible way for HIV-positive individuals to live longer, though: "compared to HIV-negative people, many HIV-positive people in Canada and similar countries are under a relatively high degree of medical scrutiny—they undergo visits to the clinic for interviews and laboratory tests several times each year. This degree of heightened medical surveillance is likely to detect any complications early on, before they can become serious"

<comment><USER7> It's probably hard to underestimate just how significant that it though. How many medically founded causes of death can be traced to something that, if caught very early, would have been treatable? If every single little "blip" was a concern worth investigating, you'd undergo a lot of testing, but you'd rarely slip through the cracks.

Expensive and painful though.

<comment><USER8> I think chronic kidney disease is one of them and I'm dealing with it. If they did urine test screening of the whole population every few years they could catch it in the early stages and try to keep it stable for much longer. Most of the medicines to do this are affordable generic medicines like ACE inhibitors and prednisone however once the kidney damage gets to a point where it is physically noticeable it is too late to treat or manage and costly dialysis and transplants are the only solution.

<comment><USER7> To be honest, that's more the norm for organ systems than not. The tests are mostly giant red flags, not subtle warning signs. Hopefully this is an area ripe for disruption with machine learning systems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> can anyone speak to the efficacy of protein folding to cure AIDS?

i feel a number of pvnp conversations say, 'if found to be p=np then cures for a number of disease will be possible through a greater understanding of protein folding'

</comment><comment><USER10> The article blames aids spread on "machismo" and discrimination against gays.

But at least on my country, aids spread is much slower among more patriarchal segments of the population, but spread quite fast, even among the rich, in groups that are more liberal, with the fastest spread I saw personally among gays and feminists.

So I wonder, what is the logic that the article used.

I know nothing abou Africa, so maybe I missed something important regarding that, but still, the article generalized the "thirld world" too, thus why I commented about what I see where I live.

<comment><USER11> Do you have any citations to support this?

<comment><USER12> I can't imagine there's any statistics about the rate of HIV infections among feminists, but if we limit the discussion to men who have sex with men, he is correct.

[https://www.aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/hiv- aids-101/statistics...](https://www.aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/hiv- aids-101/statistics/index.html)

In 2014 in the US, men who have sex with men constitute more than two-thirds of new HIV diagnoses despite being 1-10% of the population.

In the 21 worst-off US cities, 1 out of every 5 gay men (!) have HIV: [http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20100923/1-in-5-gay-bi- me...](http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20100923/1-in-5-gay-bi-men-have-hiv- nearly-half-dont-know)

None of that, of course, means discrimination is not involved. Frankly, I don't think enough attention is being paid to the problem, if we have these grand plans of ending AIDS by 2030 while 20% of a subpopulation has the disease.

<comment><USER13> He's not correct, because that's totally orthogonal to the point being made.

The issue is that when there is active discrimination against men who have sex with men, those men are more likely to contract HIV – for a whole bevy of obvious reasons.

Looking at this from the perspective of HIV spreading fastest in "groups that are more liberal" is obviously missing the whole point.

It is correct that men who have sex with men are far, far more likely to be diagnosed with HIV in developed countries – this is kind of disconnected from the issues being discussed in developing countries, where infection of young girls in particular is far more of a problem.

<comment><USER14> How could discrimination against gays be the cause for the spread of HIV? Did some country sign a law that forbids the sale of condoms to gays?

Gays are at higher risk for contracting this disease because they have more sexual partners. The same is true for any person (doesn't matter if heterosexual or homosexual) that has more than average sexual partners.

You know it's called a sexually transmitted disease for a reason, so anyone that has lots and lots of sexual partners has a higher risk.

<comment><USER15> > How could discrimination against gays be the cause for the spread of HIV?

People are less likely to seek testing, diagnosis or treatment if they will or think they will be at the receiving end of discrimination. Avoiding discrimination that could put your job, living situation or life at stake could also prevent treating a disease that does the same.

> You know it's called a sexually transmitted disease for a reason, so anyone > that has lots and lots of sexual partners has a higher risk.

You're right, but there's a reason that certain subpopulations have a higher risk and occurrence rate and it has little to do with number of partners.

<comment><USER12> Men who have sex with men do report having more sexual partners than heterosexual men [1]; the number of sexual partners is _a_ factor in the rate of HIV infection among gay men.

I think it would be reasonable to speculate the other major contributing factors are (as posted elsewhere) the hugely increased likelihood to transmit HIV during anal sex vice other kinds of sex and discrimination.

[1] [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21884382](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21884382)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Doesn't surprise me at all that sexually transmitted diseases spread much slower among Conservatives as they tend to also much more sexually conservative.

Actually here in the West the group that was affected the most in the beginning were gays, this is a fact. After that it spread to drug abusers and prostitutes.

You can't even repeat historical facts anymore in liberal comment sections without getting down voted into oblivion because apparently so many are triggered by facts.

Next time you should consider being PC - AIDS was caused by the patriarchy.

Edit: My comment was meant to be a response to this one: [https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=12197329&goto=item%3Fi...](https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=12197329&goto=item%3Fid%3D12197099%2312197329)

<comment><USER16> Nobody denies that gay men have a higher occurrence of HIV. The problem is when you turn it into a value judgement about being gay, rather than seeing it as an opportunity to exercise empathy and understand why the problem exists and how it can be improved.

The same sort of controversy existed when birth control was invented. Large sections of society argued that now nothing could control women, who were free to be "sluts" without fear of pregnancy.

Now we recognize that was a ridiculous argument. Of course women should be able to have sex without worrying about pregnancy! And, similarly, gay men should be able to have sex without worrying about a life-threatening illness.

<comment><USER14> There is no value judgement about gays in my comment! You are making this up in your head.

I call things as they are to my best of knowledge and in this particular case I know it is a fact. So when I read that "machismo" is the underlying problem with HIV then I call it nonsense because it simply isn't true.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Genetic research is progressing fast, I believe 2030 target to eliminate AIDS is possible. We have good understanding howto defeat virus. It will increasingly become ethical problem.

<comment><USER18> The public freaks out when they learn that someone might have spliced a salt resistance gene into a tomato, and you think the public will accept the kind of advanced genetic manipulation you'd need to kill HIV dead?

<comment><USER19> Probably, since most people are generally ignorant of how drugs are developed. We've been making synthetic insulin with recombinant DNA since the 70s and no one bats an eye.

<comment><USER20> You mean the <your local medicinal vetting institute> checked (at least I hope) products, that (at least I hope) only contain the filtered product and normally none of the DNA / unknown side effects ?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I can't believe this. A great testimony that i must share to all HIV patient in the world i never believed that there could be any complete cure for HIV or any cure for HIV,i saw people's testimony on blog sites of how DR ABAI prepare herbal cure and brought them back to life again. i had to try it too. and you can,t believe that in just 7 days i started using his herbal medicine. and all my pains stop gradually and i had to leave without the antiretroviral therapy which my medical doctor gave to me. i went to the hospital to do a checkup, the result came out and i tested HIV NEGATIVE. I'm sharing this with you, because i believe there's someone out here who also desire to have this cure. feel free and contact Dr Abai, delay in treatment leads to death. visit Dr Abai website: [http://drabaiherbalcure.webs.com](http://drabaiherbalcure.webs.com) contact him through his WHATS-APP NUMBER +2348156769001, or contact him via email: firstname.lastname@example.com</comment>


Why I declined an offer from Apple - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@leonst/why-i-declined-an-offer-from-apple-b9dc7797cbed <comment><USER2> Leadership in my company often asks what kinds of things they can do to better attract talent. Instead of buying nicer foosball tables, I wish they would read this article.</comment>


Building Epic Win with Backbone.js - <AUTHOR> http://www.codethinked.com/building-epic-win-with-backbone.js

<comment><USER2> EpicWin has potential written all over it. It's entering such an underserved market and built by some respected names in the community, I wouldn't bet against it.

If AppHarbor is the Heroku for .NET, here's hoping EpicWin is the Linode for .NET.

</comment><comment><USER3> The site looks great. I assume you are working on this - but do you have screen shots of your admin interface or a list of available images? (You are probably well aware of this, but creating EC2-Windows images on a micro instance is ridiculously painful).

Not sure what you could do with AppHarbor that you couldn't do with this. You could set up a build server image that pulls from a Git or Hg repo, and repoints IIS...

<comment><AUTHOR> Definitely - we will be adding screenshots pretty soon. I love the idea of AppHarbor - but sometimes you just need a nice VPS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hey guys, you've done a great job! Its awesome to see more .NET back-end powering responsive Backbone.js SPA front-ends!

We need more of examples like this in .NET to show other developers how to build responsive web applications! (i.e. without the typical use of slow, bloated enterprise libs and frameworks).

Keep up the good work!

</comment><comment><USER5> Wow, backbone.js really did catch on, heh? Way to go, jashkenas! Now, literate programming.

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow, what a great service - it's nice to see that there are other .Net devs out there in the startup world building cool stuff. I'll be using this for my next site!

</comment><comment><USER7> Before viewing the article I thought this was referring to the iPhone App: <http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/epicwin/id372927221?mt=8></comment>


I made a computer pretend to be a computer that's pretending to be a human - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@joshdotai/i-made-a-computer-pretend-to-be-a-computer-that-s-pretending-to-be-a-human-here-s-what-happened-128173751967 <comment><USER2> The patterns picked up by the training don't seem to offer too much variation than a simple Markov chain. The author finds the generated texts similar to a conversation, because that's what they're looking for. But they look just as random as simply selecting the next random word that comes after the current word from the training set.

</comment><comment><USER3> Am I missing something? This reads like gobbledygook. I have a sneaking suspicion that this very post is made to seem legitimate/credible while I don't necessarily believe it is? My mind is exploding a little bit. I am confused. Am I? Hmm.

<comment><USER4> Are you a computer?

<comment><USER5> He's a human pretending to be a computer pretending to be a human.

<comment><USER6> This is a computer pretending to be a human pretending to be a computer pretending to be a human.

Am I just being silly? I assure you, I am not!

I am looking at a computer screen at this very moment. I do not see any humans in front of me. I am at home, it is past 3AM, and even my dogs have gone to bed by now.

(Why am I up so late? Debugging, of course!)

Everything I see on this screen right now comes from a computer. Any pretense past that is beyond my knowledge.

So, whatever I see, it's a computer pretending to be...

<comment><USER7> What about a video of a computer playing a video of someone interacting with the system in the article?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Other idea: make a computer that is good at finding whether a chat user is a human or a computer (A sort of Turing Test judge bot). Then use it as a fitness function to evolve a bot.

It's also what I don't like about the Turing Test, the core trait that is rewarded by the test is deceit.

<comment><USER9> your idea is called adversarial networks, and it works quite well ([http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.2661](http://arxiv.org/abs/1406.2661)) although it's not useful every time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Vampires pretending to be humans pretending to be vampires. How avant garde. " Anne Rice anyone?

</comment><comment><USER4> Someday they'll kill us all for laughing at this.</comment>


I wrote AntiRSI 12.5 years ago, how do you stay healthy behind the computer? - <AUTHOR> http://leverlabs.io/blog20151012.html <comment><AUTHOR> op here; obviously I use AntiRSI. But I also go to the gym, and run. Not doing some of those, I pay for it later with back pains, or pain in my hands. Nothing too serious, but if I want to do this for the rest of my life, have to stay healthy.</comment>


Show HN: a color game playable by color blind players too - <AUTHOR> http://color.method.ac

<comment><USER2> I _REALLY_ don't like how when your are running out of time it becomes virtually impossible to see the color you are supposed to match since it becomes smaller and smaller.

And as a game it's not really fun - it's basically pixel hunting.

Also, the score page is rather poor: <http://imgur.com/sFniA> the "10" is cut off, and you can't read the text on the top right since it's the same color as the overall score.

However, all that said, more games (and programmers) should be aware of color blindness - it's not as rare as people think.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm used to be around programmers, and I appreciate their directness, but your comment comes off a bit grating.

It looks like your screen size is slightly less than 1024, and that your default sans-serif font is quite wide. Are you playing on a Netbook under linux? The layout is truly flexible and the game is programmed to adjust to the screen size, but there is only so much I can do before the layout breaks.

Re: time running out - it is a penalization for taking so long to do it.

<comment><USER2> > but your comment comes off a bit grating.

I realized that after posting it, so I added the last paragraph to soften it slightly. I didn't have time to think how to soften it better.

> Are you playing on a Netbook under linux?

Nope, a completely ordinary install of debian on a desktop. No special settings, so special fonts, just whatever is installed by default.

> The layout is truly flexible and the game is programmed to adjust to the > screen size, but there is only so much I can do before the layout breaks.

I run into this all the time, and designers don't like it, but fonts vary on the net, and you have to design a lot more flexibility than you think. I'm not going to be the only one with a setup like this (although I may be the only one who told you).

> Re: time running out - it is a penalization for taking so long to do it.

That violates a key design principle I have for games: In a bad game, the better you do the easier the game becomes. It's very common - do well, you get rewarded with points, or special weapons. Unfortunately it makes for a terrible game - either you do well, i.e. it's easy for you, and then gets even easier - but you don't need it, so you are bored. Or you do poorly, so it gets harder, which makes you do worse and you hate the game.

In a proper game exactly the opposite happens, if you do poorly the games makes things easier for you so you enjoy it more. Your score might be worse, but the actual gameplay is easier.

So reverse the timer - start it small, and make it get larger as time passes. Your players will enjoy the game more, and that is the ultimate goal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Thank you for including the color blind assist. It's nice to know that designers realize we exist.

</comment><comment><USER4> Sidenote: The popular game League of Legends recently released a special mode for colour-blind players.

</comment><comment><USER5> It's good to know people designing specific solutions for people with colored vision. Thank You.

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow, great job! Surprisingly addictive.

<comment><USER7> And the complimentary round is really challenging.

Good work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Thanks for considering colourblind people</comment>


5 Months of Customer Service Hell with HTC - <AUTHOR> http://happyemergency.tumblr.com/post/6777171158/5-months-of-customer-service-hell-with-htc

<comment><USER2> I brought my 11 month old iPhone 4 into the Apple Store two weeks ago. My home button was intermittently sticking, and it was really frustrating me.

I spent three minutes explaining to a guy at the Genius Bar how, despite the problem not repro'ing _then,_ that it still did _usually_ occur.

He went in back with it for five minutes and then came back to tell me they'd replace it free of charge.

Now, _that's_ customer service.

<comment><USER3> +1 for Apple, this is why I insist on buying all hardware from them.

A couple of years back my MacBook Pro started having bad graphics artifact problems compounded by overheating - it looked like the graphics chip was going to bite it any day. I called Apple, and I shit you not, within _twenty- five minutes_ of picking up the phone, I had received authorization to get it replaced. Not only that, they were going to replace my 2 year-old non-unibody MBP with one of the (at the time) brand-spankin' new unibodies.

Since the MBP was pretty heavily customized, I couldn't go get it swapped at an Apple Store, they wanted me to send it in. When I balked about the downtime, they simply shipped the replacement machine out to me and let me return the old one once I got it.

Now _that's_ customer service.

And before someone makes the argument that Apple sells extremely high-margin items and thus can afford good customer service... HTC sells the same type of product at the same price points. Not only that, I've consistently gotten great customer service from Amazon, who is decidedly a very _low_ margin business.

<comment><USER4> _before someone makes the argument that Apple sells extremely high-margin items and thus can afford good customer service... HTC sells the same type of product at the same price points._

HTC sells similarly capable products at lower price points and with a less deluxe finish. I know because I saved hundreds of pounds by going for an HTC desire instead of an iphone. But don't take my word for it, It's a well known fact that apple's profit margins dwarf those of other manufacturers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I dropped my phone, yes a fall of two feet onto fluffy carpet is 'dropping' but really come on! Later on when I looked the screen was blank.

Called HTC support and the first question I was asked mere seconds after calling was "Did you drop it?" so me being an honest person said yes. Apparently that's bad being honest and in this situation it meant any damage was my fault no matter what it was. The phone was still under warranty.

I argued with them for a month it was under warranty and the phone can't be so delicate that dropping it like I did caused the problem. The stalemate ended when HTC threatened to send it back to me charging me a fee for looking at the phone. I said fix it since it didn't make sense having a six month old $600 phone and not be able to use it!

There was absolutely no effort to help you it's just by the book you are wrong, it's all your fault no chance, warranty be damned.

Then after they repaired it they asked me to complete a "how did we do" survey and I ripped them a new arsehole I let them know exactly how I felt about their service. Then the calls started coming wanted to talk about the incident but it didn't involve me getting my money back. They called everyday and I know it was HTC because the first call I answered which was an HTC representative and all the others which I didn't answer were very odd no name, no number calls - I never saw such a thing.

Anyway I've owned cellphones since 1996 and this Google Nexus One/HTC Passion crap is the worst phone I have ever owned and the HTC service is just as bad.

Oh and the phone is still not fixed it's acting weird.

<comment><USER6> Interestingly enough, I dropped my iPhone 4 two feet onto a HARD surface. The backplate shattered.

Virgin Mobile stonewalled me the whole time, told me to take to to Apple. There being an Apple store in the same mall as the Virgin kiosk, I did.

The Genius at the Apple store listened carefully to my complaint, took my phone off to consult with some folks in the back room, and came back with a brand-new one. Told me that it shouldn't have happened and here's a replacement, but be more careful because they're not gonna replace it like that again.

Now, I found out later that replacing the backplate is hella-cheap ($15 delivered from cnn.cn for example), but the fact that Apple would just straight-up listen to me, believe me, and replace the phone in-store like that?

I'm not a Mac fanboy (I'm the only Windows user in a Mac office), but I'm an Apple fanboy, and this is why.

<comment><USER7> >Virgin Mobile stonewalled me the whole time, told me to take to to Apple.

That's because the physical phone is between you and the manufacturer. That includes the warranty, unless you purchased special insurance through Virgin. I wouldn't expect the carrier to provide you with a new phone. This is all in your contract.

That said, I think the expectation and problems like yours are rampant enough that most carriers are in fact offering some kind of "no hassle replacement" insurance for the handset. As the front line in the cell phone business, the carriers hear it from the customers in cases like these.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This was exactly the same experience[1] I had with HTC back when I got the first Nexus One (hardware defect). A year later I got a myTouch 4G, again rampant hardware issues with the screen.

I plan to honor my initial promise of never trying another HTcC device, but I get weak in the knees from high end tech and they seem to be leading the android race the most aggressively right now,

Bah.

[1] [http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/my-experience-with-htc-nexus- one...](http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/my-experience-with-htc-nexus-one-support- was-mediocre/)

<comment><USER9> My knowledge might be expired, but what HTC phone currently holds the performance/tech crown? I thought Samsung's Galaxy SII is on the top now and soon to be released Google Nexus S 4G (made by Samsung, afaik). I own HTC myself currently.

<comment><USER10> The Nexus S is out already -- and its tech specs weren't nothing out of the ordinary IIRC. Plus (and this is the whole point) it's not a great phone if you don't intend to customize it. That is, unlike HTC Sense and whatever the Samsung equiv is, this is bare bare bones Android 2.3.

Honestly, the upcoming HTC Evo 3D looks smashing. At first I groaned. I mean... 3D?!?! WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!! And i still think the whole "record your own 3D HD videos" is absurd.

But the rest of the way it uses 3D, and the new HTC Sense (on top of 2.3) is just reallllly cool. And with 1.2ghz dual core, it's a beast.

<comment><USER11> _The Nexus S is out already_

The parent said the Nexus S 4G, but I think they meant the rumored Nexus 4G (which isn't out yet). Here's some leaked specs: [http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/15/exclusive-google- nexus-4g-deta...](http://www.bgr.com/2011/06/15/exclusive-google- nexus-4g-detailed-720p-display-4g-lte-android-4-0/)

<comment><USER9> Yes, that's what I meant. Bah, they start out simple, then duct tape words and it gets messy.. HTC Desire -> HTC Desire Z, HTC Desire S, HTC Desire HD, Samsung Galaxy and all of it's variations etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Just wanted to chime in here, since I happen to have a positive HTC customer service story.

I have a nexus one. I bought it when it still came with an OLED screen. The screen eventually started having color issues. I just dealt with a pinkish screen up until a few days before my warranty was up. I contacted them, and without a hassle they sent me a new nexus one, and had me ship back mine after it came (putting a 500 dollar hold on my credit card just in case I tried to keep both devices or something).

New device worked fine but the power button was a bit iffy. Contacted them again and told them my power button was really hard to press. This was AFTER my warranty period was up (but only a couple days after I received the new phone), but the customer service rep put me on hold for a bit, and my request was approved. I got sent another new phone, and I shipped off the "old" one once I received it (with the same credit card hold situation). New phone was perfect, and I still have it and working great.

I had to deal with having to do two phone wipes and all that, but I felt pretty good about the whole thing. Cost me nothing but the time to prepare the phones for shipping and getting the new phone back up to speed.

<comment><AUTHOR> In general, when you get a warranty replacement that replacement itself has a 30 or 60 warranty, that can generally extend beyond your original warranty. I don't know the particulars from your case, but thats a pretty standard practice that _I believe_ HTC follows as well.

<comment><USER12> Perhaps, but I think you'd agree that my experience in general was very different from what a lot of people are describing here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Interesting, you don't mention whether or not you replaced the SD card. Replacing it would be useful for two reasons:

1) If you have some sort of malware it will live in the SD card to keep from being killed by a factory reset.

2) If you have a bad SD card it can crash the system by doing something the system does not expect.

<comment><AUTHOR> I mentioned replacing the SD card in the notes on the youtube video. I didn't want to overly bore the reader with the troubleshooting steps, but I believe I listed everything in the youtube video notes.

Also, I'm using the "old" SD card and battery from the defective phone in the new phone without incident.

<comment><USER13> That's interesting. I'm an electrical engineer by training and I'm surprised that when they replaced the 'main' board and the display the first time that didn't manage to replace all of the active components in the phone. Since passive components are rarely affected (like this) by heat (they change value slightly but that is part of the spec) getting a 'refurb' back with new active components was the most probable fix.

Too bad we don't have the HTC diagnostics on this problem as well. While I feel for you and your poor customer service, no doubt somewhere buried in the bowels of the company there is some guy or gal who has to figure out the root cause and get them to change the phone.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I was surprised as well. As integrated as everything I would think replacing the main board would replace every component in the chain that could cause the problem.

I'm very curious about the diagnostics as well, I'll update the post with any additional information I get.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Crappy deal.

However, I think that every company has the potential to suck you into the customer service black hole. In such cases, it's a matter of persistence (which this guy definitely had in spades) and a bit of luck finding that customer service rep that cares enough and can actually do something about your problem.

Now that the problem is fixed --albeit very late-- continue to let them know how dissatisfied you are. I'd be shocked if they didn't care and felt the need to do something extra.

<comment><USER14> I don't want to say tatsuke95 is wrong, but I don't see this the same way. I'd say every company has the potential to make the customer service experience pleasant and gratifying while remaining fair to all involved. I don't think a customer should have to be this persistent. Like the author, I'm all for turning a cheek, but at a certain point I won't continue to purchase from a company. A little frustration is one thing. Months and months of it is another. Had this been my experience, I imagine I'd be done with HTC.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> A youtube video illustrating the phone malfunctioning: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTYKk8XZw0g>

</comment><comment><USER15> The person sure has incredible persistence almost to the point of seeming naive. My advice would be to simply recognize that you've been screwed, shake your fist at them, complain in some highly visible forum (here in hacker news, yelp, blog post) and never use them again. Isn't his time a lot more valuable than this? Sometimes companies just suck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, and yes it is valuable. In fact my stealth startups is in private testing atm!

But as you say I'm persistent. And I have a sort of sense of duty to bring attention to people that fall through the cracks. Obviously almost ludicrous in this context, but something I practice in my political day job(s).

<comment><USER15> Agree, if looked from a different perspective, you seem to be providing a public service by thoroughly exposing problems with HTC. That is certainly very valuable as a whole.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I've had my fair share of rotten hardware so I understand what a hassle it can be when it craps out. That said, why didn't you just request a refund, and get a new phone? It seems that'd be much easier than playing customer service chicken with a bunch of people who seem in desperate need of retraining.

<comment><AUTHOR> I bought the phone with a Wirefly deal... which I assumed would be an even more difficult customer service experience. I won't make that mistake again. The "deal" turned out to be almost nothing as I got hit with an activation charge typically waived when you buy direct from Sprint.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Paste the link to @HTC on Twitter. They will listen. They're probably already aware of your post.

Anyway, HTC generally listens (as evidenced by the recent locked bootloader controversy) so complain on the Internet and hold them accountable.

<comment><USER18> Also, if you look at their twitter stream, you'll see that tons of HTC users have phones that crash. The crashing phones are all different models too, so it seems like it's a reoccurring problem that nobody has bother to fix. Maybe HTC just builds crappy phones.

HTC's replies to the users having problems are not very reassuring. They just ask the user to contact htc.com/support and explain the issue.</comment></comment>


Use GitHub actions to publish NuGet packages - <AUTHOR> https://lukelowrey.com/use-github-actions-to-publish-nuget-packages/ <comment> Deep-Engineer91 Helpful article. Thanks!</comment>


Ask HN: USB Over IP – Odroid vs. Raspberry Pi? - <AUTHOR>

Hi HNers, We're trying to build a USB over IP setup for a laser controller (http://www.pangolin.com/flashback/flashback3.htm)
We would like to use Odroid for it's better hardware, but documentation for USB over IP on it is pretty slim - does anyone have experience setting USB over IP up on one?
And Software-wise: USBIP vs Virtualhere? <comment><USER2> [http://pietrushnic.github.io/blog/2014/08/18/linux-rpi- and-u...](http://pietrushnic.github.io/blog/2014/08/18/linux-rpi-and-usb-over- ip/)

Describes how to setup usbip on the Raspberry Pi.</comment>


Fred Wilson - Hypocritical, Wrong and Conflicted - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/17/fred-wilsons-conflicted-doublespeak/ <comment><USER2> I find Fred's post more convincing. It has more evidence and less ad hominems.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm with you, Paul. It seemed more of a lynching of Fred than a correction.</comment>


Edward Snowden asylum: Bolivian president's plane diverted - live coverage - <AUTHOR> http://guardiannews.com/world/2013/jul/03/edward-snowden-asylum-live

<comment><USER2> Oh wow, this sounds very significant. Looks like the US is trying to show the world that nobody exposes shady government tactics and lives.

<comment><USER3> No, they are trying to show the world the value of collecting data on millions of innocent law abiding citizens and how it enables accurate targeting of which plane a whistleblower is on almost as well as it can prevent terrorists bombing marathons and flying into buildings.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> That's such a weird request. What, Portugal or France were going to shoot down the Bolivian president's plane if it didn't comply? Yeah, ok.

I find it odd that this was demanded, and also odd that it then happened. Anyone have insight on either of these counts?

EDIT: Portugal

<comment><USER5> Apparently the Bolivian presidential aircraft is a Sabreliner [0], which has a much shorter range than a big commercial jet. It may be unable to cross the Atlantic without a fuel stop near the coast. If Spain, France, and Portugal all say "don't fly here", they may not intend to shoot the thing down, but they might very well refuse to allow the aircraft to refuel when it lands.

[0] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabreliner)

<comment><USER6> I believe it's a Dassault Falcon. See: [http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001](http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/fab-001)

Still a good point, but a Falcon has about twice the range.

<comment><USER5> Ahh, I failed to check the date on the "Falcon grounded" note at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_stat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_transports_of_heads_of_state_and_government#Bolivia)

Either way, though, flying from Moscow to Bolivia is going to require a fuel stop or two, and the middle of the Atlantic is not a good place for that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Ohhh I get it. Very clever, Wikileaks!

Certain countries, I believe Switzerland is one, require for asylum some _proof_ that your home country/maybe certain other countries can't protect you.

This was a show of proof. They knew somebody would take the bait.

<comment><USER8> When you seek asylum it is because you seek protection from your home country.

<comment><USER9> Which country do you think is most likely to have encouraged/compelled/suggested/persuaded/etc. these ones to act this way?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There's no confirmation yet of Snowden being on board, however wikileaks has offered this cryptic tweet:

"The reported actions of France, Portugal and Spain this night will live in infamy."

Source: [http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly- stranded...](http://thegrandsignal.com/edward-snowden-supposedly-stranded-in- austria-bbc-denies/)

<comment><USER11> If this turns out to be true, I will never again travel to these countries and spend my tourist dollars there. Not saying this is true, but if it is, NO MORE FRENCH CHEESE :-)

<comment><USER12> Freedom fries!

<comment><USER13> This is seriously a crazy, upside down world we live in lately.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hopefully Morales' plane was just a diversion and there's another plane with Snowden on it on its way somewhere else...

<comment><USER15> Oh God that be wonderful

<comment> r-s It would be scary if Snowden is not heard from within a day or two after this. Doesn't seem like he would ever be the type to vanish purposely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Latest update:

less than 1m ago Snowden is not on the plane, AFP reports AFP are reporting that Austrian foreign ministry officials have confirmed Edward Snowden is not on the plane.

The report continues:

"President Morales will leave early Wednesday morning for La Paz," the Bolivian capital, ministry spokesman Alexander Schallenberg told AFP. Austria did not know why Morales's plane had landed there, he added.

</comment><comment><USER17> Ah, so much passive voice! _Who_ forced the plane to be re-routed?

<comment><USER7> A man after my own heart. Do programming textbooks/tutorials pain you as well?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Ex-pat in Bolivia here. People here are _pissed_ at this abuse. I wish Snowden does make his way here to Bolivia and hides in the jungle. Good luck finding him.

</comment><comment><USER19> An interesting choice if he were seeking to flee (/defect, perhaps) to Bolivia, as they have an extradition treaty with the United States [1].

It's bilateral, but I wonder if the Bolivians would keep him after the US refused to send them their former coca-growing president [2].

[1] [http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext- us...](http://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-bol.pdf) [PDF]

[2] [http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the...](http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/12/why_did_the_obama_administration_deny_bolivia_s_extradition_request)

<comment><USER20> Having an extradition treaty doesn't automatically mean that the process will be successful or quick. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition) So don't hold your breath.

> US refused to send them their former coca-growing president

Not a shocker to me. They refused Poland sending a guy involved in contracting mob hitmen on our national police chief [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Mazur)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Clearly of no significance, but after reading Snowden's statement last night, I decided to research notable examples of stateless persons and found this guy: [https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008](https://twitter.com/mikegogulski/status/352040771853099008)

<comment><USER22> He is not stateless. He is a US citizen being pursued by US Law enforcement.

Stateless people do exist and they really have it hard.

<comment><USER23> You should correct the wikipedia article, then. According to it, he renounced his citizenship, became stateless, and prior to that he served his probation sentence, and is therefore not wanted by US law enforcement.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Gogulski)

Always annoying when Wikipedia is wrong about everything.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Interesting to see that France and Portugal are willing to risk their diplomatic relations with South America for getting Snowden. I would not have expected that. I would guess people and politicians in Bolivia are quite pissed right now.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The Guardian's "live blog" is the first place to look when Snowden news blows up.

NYT's The Lede Blog is also excellent (currently blogging Egypt news).

[http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/](http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/)

<comment><USER25> The Guardian does a superb job with live web coverage of everything from football (soccer) matches to breaking news around the world. It's sort of just coincidence that they have a direct connection to the Snowden story in this case.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> No Snowden on board? Hiding in the smuggler cargo bays, perhaps?

</comment><comment><USER27> I am ashamed to be French.

</comment><comment><USER28> If not on the plane, then exactly where ARE Butch and Sundance? I have to know!</comment>