Comma.ai launches an $88 universal car interface called Panda - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/07/comma-ai-launches-an-88-universal-car-interface-called-panda/?ncid=mobilenavtrend <comment><USER2> Hotz is quoted as saying in the article, "there are only three real competitors: Waymo, Tesla and us."

That's total bullshit. There are so many companies seriously working on autonomous vehicles, such as GM Cruise, Auroa Innovation, Drive.ai, Zoox, Nuro.ai, nuTonomy, Varden Labs, AImotive, Ford, and Nvidia

Edit, because George is on here: George, I want to like you, because I think your tech is really good (the street image segmentation from RGB images is seriously impressive- [https://commacoloring.herokuapp.com/](https://commacoloring.herokuapp.com/)) and I think your business model of offering cheap devices and free services to crowd-source data, along with the comma points to incentivize users could give you a big competitive advantage. But the hyperbole makes it difficult to take you seriously.

<comment><USER3> I doubt Geohotz didn't do his homework before he made this conclusion. He went to CMU, Google and Facebook and had worked with the smartest professors/scientists/engineers in the field of AI before he founded Comma.ai. He's pretty much single-handed built a level 3 drive assist prototype within a year where other companies spent billions and many years R&D but not even came close to what he was originally intended to release.[1]

So when George said, "there are only three real competitors: Waymo, Tesla and us." What he really says is that Comma.ai's technology is on par with Waymo and Tesla's. The rest of the companies are either subpar or have no existing product to demo, likely both.

He also famously said "shippability" is the biggest differentiator between Comma One and the rest but decided not to fight the uphill legal battle being that he's taking the Android approach to grab the market share.

So, I kinda buy it.

[1]: [http://www.thedrive.com/tech/5772/the-cancelled-comma-one- wo...](http://www.thedrive.com/tech/5772/the-cancelled-comma-one-would-have- embarrassed-the-car-industry)

<comment><USER4> I have a bridge to sell.

Looking at the github repository code, comma is a joke.

<comment><USER3> > I have a bridge to sell.

Sorry what's a bridge? I don't get the reference.

<comment><USER5> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Parker)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Why a dongle?

The chffr app (video / nav data) + panda dongle (sensor data) is a simple way to let anybody participate in data collection, and for comma.ai to build enterprise value by accruing and organizing a gigantic data set that's critical to them or any third party executing the ML at core of self driving.

Now pair this with a tweet they posted in June:

"Just realized something. You are _really_ going to be happy you have comma points. Get in early... [http://getchffr.com/](http://getchffr.com/) #ICO"(1)

I think that's an incredibly compelling / fascinating ACTUAL use case for an ICO vs the current litany of pyramiding and outright scams we're seeing.

Take their chffr app + panda dongle and give people a financial INCENTIVE to accrue "points" by running the two data harvesting mechanisms and suddenly I am seeing comma's strategy in a new light.

(1) [https://twitter.com/comma_ai/status/873014550164938752](https://twitter.com/comma_ai/status/873014550164938752)

<comment><USER7> The real winner in the race to mandate OBD-II monitoring is the auto insurance industry.

Sure, you could install Hotz's dongle, give Hotz your data, earn "comma points", feel like you are helping to train self driving cars, and trade these comma points for - what exactly? a comma plushie? - while Hotz turns around and sells your data to insurance companies.

Or you could get a free OBD dongle directly from your current insurance company [1] and watch your rates go up/down depending on how safe of a driver you are.

Ultimately, Comma.ai needs to find an automotive partner. It will be nearly impossible for the company to beat Google, Uber, and (presumably) Apple, who all have strong partnerships with auto OEMs, in quality or quantity of driving data without direct integration and extensive testing on vehicles designed for autonomous driving. Not to mention Tesla, which is an OEM itself, and can design in data collection/processing for self driving vehicles from the ground up.

[1] [https://jalopnik.com/progressive-insurances-driver- tracking-...](https://jalopnik.com/progressive-insurances-driver-tracking- tool-is-ridicul-1680720690)

<comment><USER8> Not a comma plushie. He mentioned ICO, so cryptocurrency. Which with something of value like this behind it the comma "points" (tokens?) could be worth quite a lot if you're an early adopter.

<comment><USER6> EXACTLY. Sorry if I was unclear.

ICO as a way to convert "Internet Points" into something of material value and reward users directly for contributions is incredibly fascinating to me.

<comment><USER7> It's not "internet points", it's simply a way to more easily measure how much data you've contributed to comma's database. Fundamentally, that data is only valuable to insurance companies, which are already willing to pay you ~$160 (in lower insurance rates) for a year's worth of driving data.

In theory Hotz could (and should) just pay you directly in $USD for your driving data, arbitraging a bit off the top before selling it to insurance companies.

But the genius of him "paying" you in cryptocurrency is that it will get you to give it away for free "points"! And to pay him for the hardware to do so! Because you think that a market might develop around these "points" where they will get bought up by a bigger fool, pumping up their value way beyond their fundamental value to the end consumers of this data - insurance companies.

These "points" have no other value or use, as they would not otherwise function as currency (store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account) unless Hotz decoupled point generation from car data generation and just started minting an arbitrary virtual currency.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I saw a new player in self-driving yesterday - a blue Peterbilt truck equipped with many cameras and some of the puck-sized Velodyne laser scanners. Nevada license AU 0030. They were driving on US 101 southbound from Menlo Park to Mountain View, where they exited the freeway and got back on, northbound. They were bobtailing; no trailer.

In that location, I'd first though it was one of Google's vehicles But why the Nevada plate? Turns out this is Embark.[1] They even show their AU 0030 license plate in the video.

Embark has been testing in Nevada, where the regulations are looser and there's less traffic. Their demo video is on a a deserted, straight two-lane road, closed for the occasion. Good place to debug.

Embark isn't on the list of CA DMV autonomous vehicle test companies. Also, CA won't allow autonomous vehicle testing of vehicles over 10,000 pounds, figuring that if something goes wrong, it's better to have car accidents than heavy truck accidents.

When Otto did that "autonomous delivery" of Budweiser with a semi, their vehicle was surrounded by chase cars. It was a much more controlled environment than the video indicates. There's too much "fake it until you make it" in this business. Waymo and Volvo are building systems that can handle unexpected trouble. Some of the others, not so much.

[1] [http://embarktrucks.com/](http://embarktrucks.com/)

<comment><USER10> >> Waymo and Volvo are building systems that can handle unexpected trouble.

How ? What's different in the tech they are building ?

<comment><USER9> Watch Chris Urmson's self-driving car talk at SXSW 2016.[1] Especially the part where the Google car encounters someone in a powered wheelchair chasing a duck with a broom. Google can handle that.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj- rK8V-rik](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-rK8V-rik)

<comment><USER11> You know you can link to a specific time in a YouTube video right? Pretty hard to find that 20 second section in a 1 hour video ;-). It is a good drawand worth watching that part first, in my opinion

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> 2016: Comma.ai will compete with Tesla, Google, Mobileye[1]

2017: Comma.ai will compete with ScanGauge

hm.

([http://www.businessinsider.com/george-hotz-techcrunch- disrup...](http://www.businessinsider.com/george-hotz-techcrunch-disrupt- trashes-tesla-google-mobileye-zoox-2016-9))

<comment><USER13> he's answering in the comments, he says typical OBD interfaces are slow and fragile, which I surely believe. Is it me or is his ego made of titanium ? the reporter quotes "we're 3, waymo, tesla and us" .. yet he's building a cuter, faster obdII bridge I don't get it.

<comment><USER14> Those are the three players with actual networks of deployed self driving cars today. Granted, we are in third with 73 cars (and 1000's on chffr), but well ahead of every other startup. Waymo has around 200, we expect to pass them by the end of the year.

In addition to this interface, we also give away source code to a driving agent: [https://github.com/commaai/openpilot](https://github.com/commaai/openpilot)

Looks like this when running (video from a user): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VN1YcC83nA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VN1YcC83nA)

<comment><USER15> What about GM/Cruise's existing fleet of 50 with an additional 100+ on the way? [1] All equipped with LIDAR which to my knowledge you and Tesla don't have, but will need for level 5. I know Uber ATG also has a sizable fleet as well.

I have a lot of respect for your technical chops and the iPhone/PlayStation hacking you did back in the day, but the lofty claims here are hard to back up. At least Tesla has high margin electric car sales to keep them alive while they catch up to their claims.

It's easy to fool the lay public and tech journalists who don't have any technical backgrounds, but there is a world of a difference between doing fundamental AI research and development vs. patching together off the shelf commodity hardware and wiring it all up with some python.

That said, I wish you all the luck, I think a16z is betting on an acquisition like GM did with Cruise when they didn't really have anything that advanced either.

[1] [https://electrek.co/2017/06/13/gm-self-driving-chevy-bolt- ev...](https://electrek.co/2017/06/13/gm-self-driving-chevy-bolt-ev/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> TL;DR: it's a device that gathers metrics from the car sensors.

The product is aimed at hackers and car enthusiasts. You want to know your top speed, 0 - 60 etc? This might be the device for you.

Afaik there's already products out there that do the same thing. This could be at a lower price point though.

<comment><USER17> You can find similar products that work over bluetooth for under $10 on Amazon. I use an old smartphone on a mount to show all of the same information using a third-party app - no need for an $88 proprietary dongle.

There doesn't seem to be anything new about this product other than marketing and a high price tag. I'd love for that to not be the case, however. Maybe I'm missing some features of it.

<comment><USER18> From the README[0]:

It supports 3x CAN, 2x LIN, and 1x GMLAN. It also charges a phone. On the computer side, it has both USB and Wi-Fi.

It uses an STM32F413 for low level stuff and an ESP8266 for Wi-Fi. They are connected over high speed SPI, so the panda is actually capable of dumping the full contents of the busses over Wi-Fi, unlike every other dongle on amazon. ELM327 is weak, panda is strong.

[https://github.com/commaai/panda/blob/master/README.md](https://github.com/commaai/panda/blob/master/README.md)

<comment><USER17> Interesting. Seems to be more of an enthusiast data-focused product rather than something aimed towards traditional car-folk then. Might be interesting to play around with even if you don't want to contribute the data back to comma.ai

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Excited about this. I've been looking for something like this for a while. Tried a couple of different types of OBD-II adapters from Ebay, but trying to get data from them over bluetooth or wifi was just a pain. Panda with a direct interface to my laptop will enable me to get all the information I've been trying to get from the OBD-II port of my car, specifically steering angles, acceleration and braking. Using them together with feeds from a couple of cameras, and some interesting applications can be hacked together.

<comment><USER20> Odd - I got the cheapest odb2 I could find on ebay and never had any issues with it over Bluetooth using the Torque app for android.

<comment><USER19> I was able to use the "apps" to get obd2 data's. What I wanted to do is get acceleration, steering and breaking data and along with feeds from two cameras try to train deep learning models. Getting that working over Bluetooth or wifi was a pain due to poor documentation.

<comment><USER20> Cool - but since Torque can present that data for a whole range of ODB2 dongles, it must be achievable? Maybe reach out to those guys or reverse engineer their app?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> So it's an ODB II dongle that made from what looks like parts from Sparkfun and 3d printed case (Although, that's bit of wild speculation on my part), sold at apparently 8x the price of competitors. Sure the ODB exports out some common info, but isn't most of it encrypted and vendor specific? Also, calling this and a camera "a self driving car kit" is an overstatement even for Silly- Con Valley.

</comment><comment><USER22> As others have pointed out there are a TON of OBDII loggers on the market with price points down to <$10. So maybe they make it slightly more universal by interpreting more codes (?) but that seems to be mostly on the software side, this is really still a device manufactured for probably $5.

It seems the real value for comma.ai is just collecting a huge amount of driver data and then selling it to Autonomous car makers or generating algorithms based or the data themselves. Either way, if that's the case why sell it for $88??? sell it at cost ($5) or even give it away for free and just quickly build a huge user base. Am I way off here?

<comment><USER7> As I understand it users don't necessarily opt in to contributing data to comma's database. So there will be a large subset of hobbyists that just use it to monitor their own driving data privately - these are the users that comma needs to charge up front.

Plus, psychologically it feels like an investment with ROI in "comma points" for those who do contribute their data, with some vague promise of a reward later when someone (who?) decides to purchase comma points. So the upfront cost is justified.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> OK, so now there is a "fitbit for car". Yesterday it was "Uber for Garbage".

Service X (where X is an existing hit) for Area Y is getting popular.

<comment><USER24> I am starting the Herbalife for Groceries. Would you like to signup as an independent distributor in my downline?

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Comma.ai's autonomous driving software implements the main control loop in Python. It's full of memory allocations. The project is far from serious engineering.

<comment><USER13> Sometimes naively I believe that with enough hardware capabilities, lazy software can provide its function...

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Related, is anyone aware of an affordable OBD hardware simulator?

The ones I found are either pretty expensive (e.g. [https://freematics.com/pages/products/freematics-obd- emulato...](https://freematics.com/pages/products/freematics-obd-emulator- mk2/)) or seem sketchy (e.g. [https://de.aliexpress.com/item/OBD-simulator- OBD-development...](https://de.aliexpress.com/item/OBD-simulator-OBD- development-and-testing-tools-ECU-simulator-MINI- version-301/32794172958.html)).

I am also aware of [https://github.com/carloop/simulator](https://github.com/carloop/simulator). However I would prefer a one piece solution. Any tips?

</comment><comment><USER27> I remember George Hotz stating in an interview a year ago that he was going to be a billionaire by the end of 2016. He has quite the ego, there's tons of OBD-II adapters that have been around for a while and many successful Kickstarter campaigns launching better OBD-II adapters.

</comment><comment><USER9> This looks like the dongle Automatic [1] sells. That's just a data logger; it doesn't do anything except record.

[1] [https://www.automatic.com/](https://www.automatic.com/)

</comment><comment><USER28> I am not much into this, but I believe that to be really useful the OBD-II PIDs (generic):

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD- II_PIDs)

should be integrated with the ones by the given manufacturer on the specific model, and AFAIK all the money is in the software that can read those non- standard PID's.

And this is border-line (or downright just over the border) with hacking and/or reverse engineering the manufacturer's own software.

</comment><comment><USER29> Slightly off topic, but can someone here explain what in OpenPilot that makes it so technically superior? Or is the (partial?) open source part of it the most seductive part?

I only quickly looked over the source code so I am not sure if I missed something. But looking at the top level code, it seems like something anyone can accomplish after taking the Udacity SDC class (minus the CAN interfacing, but that shouldn't be all that hard?)?

<comment><USER30> you have a closed source, big binary that is the predictive model, it is the result of crunching all the data they have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Can't you see most of Panda's information with a $6 bluetooth OBDII adapter? (something like [http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Mini- OBD2-OBDII-V2-1-Android-B...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Mini- OBD2-OBDII-V2-1-Android-Bluetooth-Car-Scanner-Adapter-Torque- US-/112159207901))

<comment><USER32> I have one of those; as far as I could tell they're crappy non-compliant Chinese knockoffs of real ELM327 chips. I wasn't able to get much of anything good or interesting out of it and had to get a Beaglebone with CAN bus cape to get any farther (other problems with that but that's separate).

Hotz confirms if you read the comments on the article.

<comment><USER31> I don't see any comments on the article... I even tried a plain browser without addons.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> While this plugs into the OBD-II port but the main use is to dump the CAN bus. Comparing it with OBD-II dongles where the functionality is restricted to the OBD part is misleading. It's far from universal, as not all cars expose all the CAN bus at the OBD-II socket, but a good start for sure. I ordered mine.

</comment><comment><USER34> I experimented with OBD-II devices for a while, paired with a phone app like Torque, and I found that the lower-level information (e.g. data about any particular air sensor) just wasn't interesting or useful to me. And other useful info (e.g. speed) I can get from my dash or other sources.

Where these devices come in _extremely_ handy, however, is by allowing you to look up the opaque fault codes that your car's computer produces when something goes wrong.

For $10-$20 off eBay or similar online stores, you can get a device that will tell you, for instance, when you have a cylinder misfire without having to go to a mechanic. (You may have to go to a mechanic to get it fixed, but at least you'll have a rough idea what needs fixing.)

<comment><USER35> Some mechanics charge you $120 literally just to plug in their OBD2 adapter and read the code, so yeah, even if it saves you one diagnostic fee, it's a bargain.

Note that Hotz is claiming his readers will do a lot more than the conventional ones you've seen before. Whether or not that's true remains to be seen.

<comment><USER36> Most auto parts stores will read the codes for you for free. Some will even loan you tools to fix your car. They are in the business of selling parts and are happy to sell you whatever part you need to fix the problem.

<comment><USER37> The nice thing about Torque and an OBD-II dongle is the fact that it can help you diagnose those "random" issues that only happen occasionally.

You set up Torque into logging mode, clear your codes, turn on the GPS and mapping, and drive away. When your car does "that thing" take a note of the time, then when you get home, go back thru the logs around that time mark, and take a look at all the sensor data, plus any thrown codes. If you know your car, and understand what is going on, it can help you to narrow down the diagnosis.

While a regular code reader (or getting the codes read) will help you by giving you the codes, being able to get the codes, timestamped in a log along with sensor data can go much farther in telling you where a particular problem lies.

While there are other code readers out there that will do this logging and tracking too, they typically cost hundreds or thousands of dollars - well out of the price range of most home mechanics.

There are many other things that Torque can do or be used for (for instance, virtual gauges are a nice feature - you can set up an Android tablet with a cluster of them giving you much more feedback than you can get from your regular dash instrument cluster, and it's cheaper and easier than setting up a bunch of physical gauges on a stock vehicle).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Combining vehicle data with a phone's GPS could improve navigation accuracy in urban canyons [1].

Back in 2007 we read CAN data from a Toyota RAV4 to get wheel encoder, steering angle, acceleration, speed, and braking data [2].

I am surprised Uber/Lyft aren't using something like this. I often see the car location jumping around in SF FiDi.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_canyon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_canyon) [2] [http://www.acfr.usyd.edu.au/research/projects/others/darpa.s...](http://www.acfr.usyd.edu.au/research/projects/others/darpa.shtml)

<comment><USER14> Improved localization / nav is one of the goals of chffr. Through panda, we can use the car sensors for dead reckoning.

Combined with the phone camera, we can get and keep a really precise location fix.

<comment><USER38> Have you thought about releasing this as its own product which I could use in an existing navigation app?

<comment><USER14> We don't plan on writing a nav app, the plan is just to improve the location fix at the system level and work with all nav apps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Isn't ODB-II just doesn't have anything useful for self-driving? What's is "fragile" part of ODB-II? How does this yet another dongle solve "fragile" part? Isn't it just arduino-like board and ODB-II shield?

<comment><USER40> OBD2 is the connector and the protocols used on that connector. The vehicle CAN bus is on the OBD2 port, and the "K-line", which is diagnostic only, is also there.

<comment><USER39> Not the full CAN bus, only very small subset of it, isn't it?

<comment><USER40> The connector has at least 1 CAN bus on it, some pins are "manufacturer discretion" meaning the manufacturer may put CAN or other signals on the connector.

Nowadays most vehicles have several CAN and LIN buses and it's unlikely that all traffic gets routed to the OBD2 connector, but some stuff is. Again, it depends on the manufacturer.

There are lots of standardized signals defined that a OBD device can request: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD-II_PIDs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBD- II_PIDs)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> There's an israeli start-up doing much more with that car data. telling you about problems and more. and it costs as much as 20-30$ [https://engieapp.com/](https://engieapp.com/)

</comment><comment> brian-armstrong So it turns out geohotz is great at breaking other peoples' stuff and finds making products is harder. Who knew? Soon a 16-year-old will find a massive security vuln in this ODB bridge and the cycle will be complete

</comment><comment><USER42> This....doesn't appear to be that useful?

<comment><USER13> Or even new. It's an OBDII bridge.. except maybe with a software mindset instead of an automobile one, thus some wifi chip (looks like an ESP32 on the picture) and a cute form factor. I ... don't get it.

I thought hotz finally found his spot and excepted some small nuc like board + a set of cam and sensors ..

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I've been following Comma.ai since I read the Bloomberg article about George hacking a self-driving car in his garage. While I have read the criticism on HN and think it is reasonable, I must admit I'm rooting for George and his team. I'm happy to see they launched this product and are continuing to make progress after the NHTSA incident. I'm looking forward to testing their tech myself.

</comment><comment><USER44> Looks like they're just trying to get additional sensor data to train their neural nets (crowd source the data). I'm not sure if a single camera from a dash mounted mobile device plus vehicle control data is enough for training a neural net for fully autonomous driving, but it's certainly valuable for driver assist features.

</comment><comment><USER45> He also said he will "ship" his product and badmouthed his competitors for not shipping. Then he cancelled his product after one cease and desist. George is a brilliant mind, but I hope he figures out how to become a better entrepreneur. He has so much potential.

</comment><comment><USER46> If you want some of the features of the Panda interface (not the cloud connected dashcam) it seems like Automatic [1] seems to do the job. Any happy users of Automatic?

[1] [https://www.automatic.com](https://www.automatic.com)

<comment><USER47> I used automatic for a while. It was pretty limited, and pricey. I've been using a panda for several weeks now, and FAR more capable. It probably boils down to: do you want a pretty UI dumbing the info down for you, or do you want the raw data so you can do things with it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I got it actually, they reimplemented ODB-II in a more stable manner to provide better stability and performance, ELM327 is the only player on the field and provide less CAN busses (they are just not connected at all)

</comment><comment><USER48> This article seemed really incoherent to me.

I didn't understand what comma is trying to do and how selling 1000 "FitBits for your car" to "car enthusiasts and hackers" for $88 helps to compete with Waymo.

</comment><comment><USER49> Does this kid want to be rich, famous or ubiquitous? Because he will never achieve any of that without playing politics.

</comment><comment><USER50> This is very exciting. I've used an Automatic adapter after seeing the HN discount and the data is very interesting.

</comment><comment><USER51> OK so it's a $4 ESP8266 and maybe something else that plugs into the OBDII port. Why do I need this?

</comment><comment><USER52> Given the absurd insecurity of the OBD II CAN interface on all modern vehicles, it seems insane to install anything there with a wireless interface on it.

<comment><USER13> aren't they read only sensors anyway ? no outside agent can fiddle with your car through OBD2 .. I hope so

<comment><USER33> This device works on the CAN bus, where you can actually issue commands, not just listen. So this is a bad idea in that sense.

<comment><USER13> I'd never have guess there were actual effecting commands.. hmm

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> That's nonsense. if his claims were true, he could've sold the lot for nine or ten figures to somebody who was willing to deal with NHTSA.

It is exceedingly foolish to believe George Hotz's extremely obvious lies. George Hotz is a smart guy who made some big mistakes, and isn't man enough to admit that he was lying.

<comment><USER54> We detached this subthread from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720083](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14720083) and marked it off-topic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> If you mean what you say: buy this thing, install it on your car, and use it daily.

I dare you.

Oh right, you'd never do that, because some tiny part of you knows that George Hotz was lying his ass off about his tech, and that you'd have to be a crazy person to trust such a flagrant liar with your life.

<comment><USER55> Yeah you're right. I want to buy it though, and then wait a couple of months before plugging it into my own car. I'm just saying you can't just dismiss the guy's ability because he comes across arrogant. He's proven he's a hacker, and now he's trying to prove he's a maker as well.

Maybe this Panda thing is engineered really well, and the money and reputation will get him to a point where he can run a nice company. Maybe not and this things get some people killed and he will be thrown in jail for building a recklessly unsafe product, I don't know. I don't own a car right now so all I can do is talk big.

<comment><USER53> His arrogance is orthogonal to the issue.

The issue is that he was obviously lying. He claimed he was weeks away from autonomous cars. If this was true, he would've sold the tech for a staggering pile of cash.

Instead, all the evidence looks like he thought he could solve the problem on his own, in record time. Then he made a pretty basic POC (able to handle a small number of very simple conditions). Then he realized he couldn't do it. And so he pretended that he'd solved a problem nobody else had, but wasn't going to share or sell the answer with anybody else because the government is bad.

Unfortunately, some people hate the government enough that they want to believe this. But it's a dumb story and an obvious lie. George Hotz does not have autonomous driving technology. He never did, and he never fucking will. He's a snake oil salesman.

<comment><USER14> Autonomous vehicle technology, and it's free --> [https://github.com/commaai/openpilot](https://github.com/commaai/openpilot)

Working, video by a user --> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VN1YcC83nA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VN1YcC83nA)

Where's the snake oil?

<comment><USER56> Very nice, but video cuts right when it would have gotten interesting!

<comment><USER14> Follow us on twitter, we have multihour periscopes of driving. [https://twitter.com/comma_ai](https://twitter.com/comma_ai)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Settling on an Idea - <AUTHOR>

Hi guys/gals,
Just hoping to get a bit of feedback here.
I quit my job 2 weeks ago and in the interim have found office space from which I'm planning to develop some software over the next 6 - 12 months; self financed. To date I've primarily worked with C# but I plan to work with Python on GNU/Linux – I love C# but I'm no longer digging the eco-system: Windows, Visual Studio, IIS, and SQL Server.
At the moment I'm researching potential projects and this is where I get a bit stuck. I'm finding it difficult to choose what to work on. I have a few ideas that have sensible revenue models, assuming they take off. The problem is that the ideas aren't particularly revolutionary. In fact they're a bit humdrum (at least for these days). I feel like I should be falling in love with an idea but I have a very critical mind set. I start seeing potential problems every time my mind goes down a hypothetical development path. I suppose I'd just like to hear from other people as to whether this is something they've had trouble with.
There's a voice in my head saying "just take one of the ideas and execute on it, don't worry about the outcome".
 I guess I'd like to know when it's time to just start building something and stop thinking of something better that I could do.
Thanks for reading. <comment><USER2> I relish my office space, it's quiet. I seldom have visitors here. And it gets me out of the house.

But the Big Ideas don't happen here. That comes by doing customer discovery, reaching out, and engaging in live conversation.

For just one of your ideas-- can you identify and talk to 100 potential end- users and buyers? It takes a long time to actually connect with these people. You'll get blown-off or simplistic good luck platitudes. But every now and then, you'll find someone generous with their time, and thoughtful feedback. Those people are golden and will make all the difference. Incidentally, here's good read on Give & Take > [http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16158498-give- and-take](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16158498-give-and-take)

<comment><USER3> _But the Big Ideas don 't happen here. That comes by doing customer discovery, reaching out, and engaging in live conversation._

So true. Go out and talk to people. You'll be amazed by how better your brainstorming gets.

In the end, there are usually two main routes for ideas. Enterprise products are easy to profit from, you just need to know the space, talk to potential customers ahead of time and do it. Boring but profitable. Consumer ideas are much harder. Everyone can get ideas for consumer products (do we really need another dating app?).

So choose wisely. Is your real goal to build a small but sustainable stream of income? Choose enterprise. Are you dreaming big? Maybe try consumer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hi Aswerty, this is an interesting problem to solve and one I'm looking to solve myself. Maybe the first thing to do is understand the job the customer wants to get done. Here's a great video I just watched that delves into that topic (5 min long). [http://youtu.be/f84LymEs67Y](http://youtu.be/f84LymEs67Y)

I would then attempt to workout exactly what the business model and your value proposition to your consumer would be. I've read the Business Model Generation book and I found it to be helpful and thorough in coming up with ways to generate potentially profitable businesses. Their second book, on Value Proposition, looks fascinating as well. [http://businessmodelgeneration.com/](http://businessmodelgeneration.com/)

They also provide downloads for blank canvas' to print out and use during your brainstorming sessions. [https://strategyzer.com/canvas?_ga=1.134434994.233324054.141...](https://strategyzer.com/canvas?_ga=1.134434994.233324054.1417795934)

Edit #1

I would also look into reading Lean Startup ([http://smile.amazon.com/Lean- Startup-Innovation-Successful-B...](http://smile.amazon.com/Lean-Startup- Innovation-Successful-Businesses- ebook/dp/B004J4XGN6/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417796889&sr=1-1&keywords=lean+startup)) if you aren't already familiar with developing MVP's, especially landing pages for gauging consumer interest in your idea.

Edit #2

I would also read 'Goodbye Minimum Viable Product, Hello Maximum Value Proposition' ([http://torgronsund.com/2014/12/04/minimum-value- proposition/](http://torgronsund.com/2014/12/04/minimum-value-proposition/)), which includes the video i posted earlier, as well as an intro to Simon Sinek's work on Why How What.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the comments and the links. I've come across strategyzer.com before and I can remember thinking it was worth bookmarking – but of course I didn't.

It's not so much the problem of finding a business model I'm struggling with – it's not knowing when to run with an idea as opposed to sitting on it and looking at other avenues. I think it might be something you learn through experience (and failure). I was just hoping to see other peoples view on it.

<comment><USER4> I see, I apologize for not providing you with what you were looking for initially. I struggle with over analyzing problems. This leads to paralysis in some cases, including when coming up with ideas for products/services like you're experiencing.

I have a friend who wants me to work with him on a project. The problem he is trying to solve doesn't scratch an itch for me though. I have noticed, for me personally, that I am more motivated to work on something if the solution solves a problem I am currently experiencing.

<comment><AUTHOR> No need to apologize! It's refreshing seeing peoples take on things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> One of the most helpful pieces of reading for me on this topic is Paul Graham's How to Get Startup Ideas: [http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html) ... specifically "Live in the future, then build what's missing." This perspective has helped me filter ideas that were likely derivative and fleeting to ones that might really matter and be challenging/fulfilling to solve over the long run.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've read that before. It was definitely a game changer in terms of how I view where the value of software derives from.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I would minimize your costs initially, you can work from home to build your idea.

First stop for you is to watch @DHH's startup school talk . . . most ideas that are successful are simple . . . it really is all in the execution.

Link to DHH at Startup School: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY) It's from 2008 but still inspiring and relevant.

Ok . . . so you're inspired . . .

Don't just build the software . . . you'll fall in to the trap of spending too much time building something your customers don't want or doesn't provide enough value.

Read Dan Norris's book the 7 day startup and listen to his podcast.

And listen to StartupsForTheRestOfUs.com.

Lots of good info on proving an idea, talking to customers, building an email list.

The key is launching fast with minimal development time. Once you have paying customers you can automate and improve your app/software to provide even more value with less effort on your part.

I would pick something you like thinking about/would enjoy working on and would enjoy dealing with the potential users.

There are infinite ideas/opportunity out there in apps/saas so don't worry about that . . .

@DHH "Zappos is selling F'n Shoes . . . "

Execute, do it right and provide value to your signups and you'll be revolutionary.

Remember you don't need an office, an LLC or anything else in the beginning . . . just start getting to know potential paying customers and build out the simplest version of your app that clients can sign up for. Once you have revenue you can think about office space (if needed) an LLC, etc.

Services/Ideas to help you get off the ground for low/upfront costs:

Rails/Laravel (frameworks) Digital Ocean (hosting) Stripe.com (payments) Mandrill.com (App emails) MailChimp.com or Drip.com (building an email list)

Also start blogging now about your product/niche right away.

Feel free to email I love talking SaaS/apps, startups and bootstrapping.

I've been running this same playbook and will be launching my second SaaS in early 2015.

Good luck in 2015!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply.

I'd like to avoid the cost of office space but I would literally not do an iota of work from home. Home is for home stuff, work is for work stuff; that is how my brain works. I'm in Europe and my desk is costing me €160/month so it's not exactly an especially taxing expense.

I keep my ear to the ground with regards start-up news but I think I'm going to spend some time listening and reading to some of the resources you and others have posted. Hopefully it will help me narrow down what I'll ultimately set out to create.

And thanks for the offer. The best of luck to you as well.

<comment><USER6> y, it's great to have space . . . I have a couple locations around the house that are office-like but there is always the chance family time will encroach on work.

y, the podcasts and Dan's book are great resources . . . be careful about listening and reading though . . . get the good gems of information and then take action . . . you can spend months/years listening to other people and how they executed.

[http://yourstory.com/2012/11/my-name-is-porn- entreporn/](http://yourstory.com/2012/11/my-name-is-porn-entreporn/)

So listen, learn and take action . . . otherwise time will pass you by . . .

BootStrappedWithKids.com has some gems as well . . .

And of course read/listen to everything by paito11.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If your ideas seem humdrum but reasonable, then bounce them off other people (preferably the target audience) to see whether potential paying customers find them less humdrum than you do

One of these days I'll take my own advice...

<comment><AUTHOR> Hopefully they will find them less humdrum than me. I guess as a developer my idea of humdrum, when it comes to technology, might be a little disconnected with the rest of society.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "The problem is that the ideas aren't particularly revolutionary." There aren't really many more "revolutionary" ideas anyways. Sometimes all it takes is to find something that's already been done and find a way to improve it. Look at Nest Thermostat, Slack, Evernote, etc. The great thing about going after a market that's already got customers is that you don't have to validate a need, because the market is already there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I guess one of the things I was thinking about doing has already been validated by the market. It's just how I'd like to offer it is different, a pay for what you want/use model as opposed to fixed price. I guess it follows the logic of you should only have to pay for what you use, not what you could potentially use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This must be the most valuable article i read on ideas. Maybe you have read it, but if you haven't, it will help. It has helped me and my co-founders a lot. Good Luck!

[http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> I would suggest pick something that is along your interest line. For example, I love movies so i started making a movie app with social touch. Though, whether it will be huge or not depends on how efficiently you execute with bit of luck and understanding you will get as you work on it.

</comment><comment><USER10> Would you be open to working with someone on their idea?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not something I've ruled out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I am sure there is a lot more to your story that you are not sharing here, and it would be interesting to hear how you got to this point. It might help us to better assess how to help you in the short term. As it is, I can only speak in generalities.

There is a level of insecurity to going it on your own that you need to embrace, to put it bluntly. Obviously if you quit your job and found office space then you have started down this path of embracing insecurity, but you haven't embraced it enough. You have thought of a few ideas and then knocked them all down because you are a sensible guy. You can see how they will fail, why your dream (which seems to be just "entrepreneurship", maybe) won't come to fruition, and how you will have to start over again, or whatnot. That's a tough spot, I have always started new ventures with my product idea in mind beforehand. But whether you come up with the product idea beforehand or in the middle of the process, you have to embrace the idea that you are likely going to hit hundreds of roadblocks and issues, and you will most likely fail. That's no big deal! That's part of the fun.

Another problem you seem to have is, despite the few ideas and potential revenue models, you aren't solving a problem you actually have. If you were, you wouldn't be worried about the potential problems with hypothetical development paths. You would be fixing a problem, a problem you have and understand, and one you need a solution to right now. Solving a problem you have also answers the question of how revolutionary your solution is. If you hate how the rest of the world distributes widgets, and you need widgets, and you come up with a better way to distribute widgets, is this not revolutionary? Maybe "widgets" in this case are men's shaving razor blades. I don't think that razor blades are all that interesting, and certainly aren't that revolutionary. But Michael Dubin had a problem, thought up a solution that was better than what everyone else was doing, and "revolutionized" the men's razor blade industry. In reality he made it easier to buy blades online; his model can be described on a cocktail napkin with room to spare. But he did something revolutionary. He seems pretty happy.

What problem do you have, regularly, that you hate? If you have no problems, what problem does your significant other have? Your best friend? Your dog? Your local municipality? Stop thinking about development paths and revenue models; those will come in time. Find something you can get behind and care about. Something where, when it doesn't work out, you won't care about how much money you didn't make, you'll only care that the problem isn't solved! The voice in your head that says "just take one of the ideas and execute on it, don't worry about the outcome" is totally right! But first, find an idea you care enough about that the outcome doesn't really matter.

On an unrelated tangent, think long and hard whether you want to learn an entirely new development ecosystem while you are trying to solve your problem. C# and .Net are good. So is Python. Do you want to build the solution to your problem, or do you want to learn a new language?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think your perspective overlaps mine from what you've written. And there isn't much of a back story to me. It's just the case that a lot of my wider family have gone out on their own over the years and things have gone well for them. I guess the appeal of increased agency has pushed me out the door and away from the 9 to 5 life style. And at 27 I don't think I'm risking much making this move now.

My current list of ideas has slowly formed from people (family and friends) asking me "can you build an app for this thing because I hate doing xyz". Other ideas have come from things that annoy me personally. So I'm pretty happy with my thought process in regards to where I'm getting potential product ideas. Currently where I'm at is trying to decide which of these potential projects am I going to settle on. I've had ideas piling up over the last few years and now I have to strike out all but one.

So now I'm in the frame of mind where I'm thinking if I do idea A it's probably not going to be the next big thing but it's quite possible I'll make a good go of it. Or for idea B I'm thinking it's a long shot but if I pulled it off it might really go somewhere. I think I'm looking for a reason to pick one idea over another. Is it just a case of doing whatever seems like the most fun (after filtering ideas based on merit)? That doesn't sound like a bad plan. Or is a small but manageable first step the right approach and leave any grand ideas for a later time when my experience in developing a product has matured?

As to switching stacks. I thought about that long and hard. I've dabbled in Linux over the last two years and have picked up a little Python. I know it's not ideal adding the extra overhead of learning a new language and environment but sometimes you just have to do what your gut says. And I've been hankering to leave the MS world behind for a while now. I think once you're running Cygwin as you CLI, using a Vim emulator in Visual Studio, and drooling at the thought of using PostgreSQL as your DB of choice it's probably time to change stack.

I appreciate the time you took to write out that reply.</comment></comment>


Starbucks Frappuccino Sales Tell a Troubling Tale - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-06-20/starbucks-investor-update-delivers-the-wrong-kind-of-jolt <comment><USER2> Somewhat related, but I always wonder if things like this are symptomatic of something larger happening - i.e. I wonder if we're at the start of a recession of some kind, and this is a symptom of that.

Of course the more logical part of my brain says "Starbucks is over-saturated, local coffee shops have surpassed Starbucks in many ways, and people are starting to realize how horrible frappuccinos are for them."

Still, sometimes it's hard to shake this nagging feeling that things like this are dead canaries. I'm not quite sure why, though.

<comment><USER3> 28 year old here. I was buying starbucks 5 days a week and started drinking the office coffee back in january. I haven't spent a dime on starbucks ever since.

I realized at some point I want to buy a home and also retire. Tightened the belt a bit, wrote out a strict budget, and now i am adhering to it.

Also, the crazy stock market prices are making me fearful. I still have my 401k and sp500 fund contribution each month, but I sold individual stock I was holding (mostly just faang's)... some of it is now in a cash savings account, in cd's, and a bit in just some vanguard mutual funds.

Typing on phone, sorry for typos.

<comment><USER4> Unless you have insider information or are a very good part time quant, I don't see any reason to think you can time the market.

<comment><USER5> It isn't necessarily "timing the market" to cash out gains after a historic, decade-long run. You don't have to get the top or the bottom exactly right.

<comment><USER4> I would classify cashing out as timing the market. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to sell at current prices, but who knows if we'll have another +25% year or a -25% year? My point is there's no reason to be fearful, just realize that it's all a gamble unless you have an edge.

<comment><USER5> _" I would classify cashing out as timing the market."_

Yes that was already clear.

 _" who knows if we'll have another +25% year or a -25% year? My point is there's no reason to be fearful, just realize that it's all a gamble unless you have an edge."_

The point is, there's a lot more that you don't know. Maybe they just sold out at a big gain, knowing that the economic cycle is a real phenomenon, that interest rates are going up, and the yield curve just inverted. Maybe they were over-weighted in a single sub-sub-sector (FAANG tech stocks) that have had a spectacular run, and it's actually a _good_ idea to diversify. Maybe they have plans for that money in a few years, and the recent sideways movement in the market is a good excuse to take gains. Horses for courses.

Even if you don't believe any of that, it isn't "market timing" to act on hypotheses, any more than it's market timing to sell a particular stock when the fundamentals change. You have no idea what the parent's situation or risk tolerance is, so criticizing with "don't time the market" is equivalent to "never sell", which is a comment with zero information content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> How about improving on some of the food items? Starbucks had purchased BayBread/La Boulange for 100 million several years ago. Yet when I walk into a Starbucks and look at the selection of pastries behind the glass casing, they look dehydrated and unappealing. My local cafe has stuff that actually looks like it was freshly baked that morning. They usually don't make them in house, they work with local bakers. Starbucks should consider doing something similar.

<comment><USER7> why not support your local cafe instead?

<comment><USER7> (in terms of the purely economic question of whats best for sb, that mass produced cardboard food must net more profit than the increased sales of more expensive higher quality food would)

<comment><USER8> The percentage of that profit staying in the local area is smaller at a Starbucks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Aside from wasting money, that amount of excess sugar also kills you similarly to alcohol. Diabetes, fatty liver disease, obesity, etc. Well I guess it's also wasting money due to the increased health care costs but one might also argue an early death saves money so YMMV.

<comment><USER10> I've never understood why they don't offer all the same sweet drinks, but with something like Splenda instead of sugar.

Perhaps it's better this way, otherwise I'd probably be at Starbucks a lot more often.

<comment><USER11> Oddly enough, the zero-calorie (or very low calorie) sweeteners are almost as fattening as sugar.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Funny that decreasing _growth_ is the main cause for concern in this article. Talk about ubiquity itself not being enough for investors.

<comment><USER13> The need for growth eventually kills all these companies. There's just no concept on Wall St. that a company can so completely saturate the market that there's nowhere else to go. It's a relatively new concept that companies really can dominate the whole world in their market segment.

<comment><USER14> > _There's just no concept on Wall St. that a company can so completely > saturate the market that there's nowhere else to go_

They're called utilities. They pay a nice dividend and are valued with at a sober multiple.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Maybe folks are realizing that even when you call basically-a-milkshake a coffee beverage, it's still basically a milkshake... and not something you should consume regularly.

<comment><USER16> not likely. obesity in the US is still a thing, and it's not getting any better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Starbucks is the defacto mascot of money wasting. People always talk about abstaining from starbucks when they talk about saving money. The frappuccino is often the specific product that is mentioned. How is it any surprise that it's popularity has waned? Star bucks stores feel more like McDonald's stores than anything else, there is almost no atmosphere to speak of which I would guess is rather important to the coffee snobs who buy fraps. What kind of world do we live in when McDonald's is expensive (everything besides the simple cheeseburger is a total insult to value) and when Starbucks is McDonald's?

<comment><USER18> >Starbucks is the defacto mascot of money wasting.

>People always talk about abstaining from starbucks when they talk about saving money.

Except when they come and buy them :)

For the money wasting culture.... The latest Starbuckses in China are mindblowing... Not only they have nearly $11 bucks drinks ( you can buy 4 full meals for that price in China ) the decorum looks like something out of ritz carlton if not more posh.

They are thriving here.

<comment><USER17> But in the article it says that Starbucks growth in China has fallen significantly behind market growth

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> > _Perhaps this shouldn't come as a shock, given that Frappuccinos pack a lot > of calories and customers are increasingly looking for healthy choices. But > Starbucks needs some new hits to give people a reason to come back through > its doors, especially with so many insurgent and boutique coffeehouses > chasing the same customers._

Indeed, at over 500 calories, any given Frappuccino is almost 1/3 of my daily calorie budget. That's a lot to spend for a single treat. They keep trying to push these at the "Happy Hour" events they hold every other Thursday - announced by Wifi auto-login page, auto-signup email newsletter, and numerous app notifications. They're using just about every trick available, but sadly their caffeinated milkshakes aren't bringing paying customers to their 'yard'.

As a frequent Starbucks customer, I face 3 issues with the stores:

\- Lack of low-carb, high-protein meal options. The protein boxes are acceptable, and more options would be lovely.

\- Long lines to order, and an uncomfortable wait for the drink. The solution I've found for this is to order through the app, from a store about 5 minutes away. By the time I arrive, my order is waiting for me at the end of the drink rail.

\- Unpredictable lack of seating - no way to know if all tables are taken at a given store, without actually being there in person. Google Maps can give some idea. Not sure of a better solution for this, short of table sensors or webcams.

The long ordering times are a problem held by almost all coffee shops, and Starbucks app is the only thing that makes me opt for them over smaller local competition.

<comment><USER20>
      Lack of low-carb, high-protein meal options

The sous-vide egg bites are the perfect keto snack. The steak and egg tomatillo works, too.

<comment><USER21> What else do you eat? Avoiding any and all sugar does seem like a great way to lose weight, but how do you go about your day? Is it lots of cooking, lots of batch cooking, or getting things at cafés?

I was telling a friend of mine the other day how I used to cook a lot of beef and assorted vegetables in a pot of water and it would last me the week, but I have barely any sense of taste.

<comment><USER20> I generally don't cook, except for a occasional grilling.

There are always low-carb modifications you can make. There used to be coffee shops here that would make a larger omelette in lieu of potatoes and toast, for example. In and Out Burger offers the so-called protein style for all of their burgers such that you can get your burger in lettuce wrap instead of a bun. Even at McDonald's, a good low carb value is to get 2 double cheeseburgers or McDoubles, toss one bun, and use the remaining bun has a holder for the combined now four-patty Burger (you don't have to hit the button, just use it as a holder). etc.

Meat. Cheese (in moderation). Eggs. Salad greens. It's What's For Dinner (tm).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> > Perhaps this shouldn't come as a shock, given that Frappuccinos pack a lot > of calories and customers are increasingly looking for healthy choices.

Glad that people are making healthier choices but consuming stimulants and refined sugar every day (sometimes multiple times per day) probably isn't a healthy habit either.

<comment><USER16> I stopped going to starbucks because I had to wait in the same like as the "large mocha frappuccino with whipped cream and low fat milk please" folks who took forever and a day to order their crap, when all I wanted was a black coffee.

Why can't there be a way to get a regular, no frills coffee without waiting for tens of minutes?

<comment><USER23> > Why can't there be a way to get a regular, no frills coffee without waiting > for tens of minutes?

Make it at home with an aeropress, I stopped going to Starbucks when I realized I was spending $5 on venti iced coffees multiple times per week when $10 worth of beans easily lasts me two weeks of a daily pot (2x venti) of coffee. One pot of coffee with breakfast usually keeps me going for the day, with the free side effect of not having trouble going to sleep at a decent hour

<comment><USER16> Yea, sometimes that's not an option when traveling.. When I'm not traveling, I make all of my coffee at home, or drink whatever my employer serves.

<comment><USER24> I bring caffeine pills with me now when I travel so I don't have to go out for my daily coffee. But I enjoy brewing my own coffee at home.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> >...Starbucks struggled to draw customers in the afternoons.

My local Starbucks stops brewing decaf at 11am. I can't drink caffeine in the afternoon and I don't think I am alone.

<comment><USER20> There is no extra charge for a pour-over (e.g. for decaf or dark roast).

If they try to upsell you to a Clover specialty variety for more money, don't pay any upcharge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> The Starbucks sugared drinks are so sweet my teeth hurt. One day, I ordered a black coffee, it arrived pre-sweetened when I was expecting bitter. Starbucks had spit up on their floors after that drink.

Edit: Also, at one point I did a deep dive into my finances, and I realized I was spending more at Starbucks than I was on groceries at a grocery store. I ate out a lot. Started cooking home more, and made a rule about how much weekly to spend on coffee. That probably didn't help Starbucks' finances multiplied by all the financially squeezed millennials.

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm guilty of contributing to the decline of Frappuccino sales. I used to drink them regularly at Starbucks. Two (related) things happened: I got off the street and I got healthier.

I use food in place of drugs. Me consuming enormous amounts of coffee for the caffeine is a sign of health distress. I have mostly quit drinking coffee since leaving California and getting back into housing.

I was also going to Starbucks for the Wi-Fi. I now have internet service at home.

It's anecdata. But maybe there are trends happening that are impacting Starbucks, but which are not really about Starbucks per se, and that don't say something dire about the world.

</comment><comment><USER28> Does anyone recall how Facebook's booming growth coincided with the growth of Zynga? A game genre which asked you to have a bunch of friends to get ahead, otherwise pay to win. (aka. a lot of people signed up for fake accounts)

The recent US employment numbers have a similar stink, as it's impossible for the vast majority of people to survive off a single job's income, especially when little to none of them are offering full-time or benefits. The talk of a recession hasn't started, but it's here, if not something far far worse.

<comment><USER14> > _it 's impossible for the vast majority of people to survive off a single > job's income_

The average employed American earned $928.74 a week in May of 2018 [1]. That's over $46,000 a year [2]. That's a livable wage. In the same month, labor force participation for Americans over 16 was 62.7% [3].

So a majority of Americans have jobs, and the average job pays over twice the poverty rate for a family of three to four [4]. The vast majority of Americans can survive off a single job's income.

[1] [https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t19.htm](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t19.htm)

[2] 928.74 * (52 - 2) _includes 2 weeks ' vacation_

[3] [https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000)

[4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Recent_poverty_rate_and_guidelines)

<comment><USER29> Thanks for the data. I know very few people who legitimately have more than one job and I grew up in a poor household. We got by.

<comment><USER28> You're talking about 10-30 years ago. Not today.

<comment><USER29> That's fair to say. A bit of a logical oversight on my end :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I think something better than Dunkin Donuts, but cheaper than Starbucks could make a killing.

People like their coffee but not quite the price.

Also - the brand is fully commoditized ... so high price points are harder to achieve.

</comment><comment><USER31> Where's the kombucha? And maybe some avocado toast with flavoured salt? The zeitgeist is passing them by...

</comment><comment><USER32> Vote me down all you want, but I fail to see why this is relevant to HN and landed the first page...

<comment><USER17> Don't mention being down voted. It's against the rules and not very appealing. But I do agree with your sentiment

<comment><USER12> Why did you feel the need to create a new account for this comment & thread?

<comment><USER33> Oh, come on. You know everyone on this site is a fucking asshole.

<comment><USER12> True, but I didn't think IP was saying anything particularly controversial. Hence my curiosity!

I was almost wondering if OP just created new accounts for _every_ thread out of some hyper-privacy orientation.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Redundancy in Programming Languages - <AUTHOR> https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/b05.html <comment><USER2> _Programming languages extensively use this to reduce coding errors. If there was no redundancy at all in a language, then any random sequence of characters would be a valid program._

This is completely opposite to the philosophy of the APL-family languages, and those who have learned them seem to also argue strongly that the conciseness reduces errors and makes for higher productivity.

 _Probably the best example of redundancy in a programming language is unit tests._

Some of my worst experiences have been fighting unit tests that were "overspecified", i.e. testing for inputs which would otherwise be clearly impossible in the context of the whole system, with the result that any trivial change to the code can cause test failures that consume time to diagnose, despite zero change to the ultimate functionality of the system.

<comment><USER3> > testing for inputs which would otherwise be clearly impossible in the > context of the whole system

Off the top of my head...

1\. When reusing code, unit tests that specify unexpected inputs are useful because you don't know the future use case. That's a rather weak reason to write the unit tests _now_ , but a reason.

2\. There is no way to enforce what is an expected input to a function, once a system grows large enough. Changes in the upstream dataflow being traced through the system by investigating every unit test is impractical. Being defensive up front, is reasonable.

<comment><USER4> _There is no way to enforce what is an expected input to a function, once a system grows large enough._

This is exactly what typechecking does for you and is the reason I think trying to build any large system without them is a bad idea.

<comment><USER3> > This is exactly what typechecking does for you

Having types, isn't a binary choice. eg Generics, plain objects, functions, pointers. There are inevitably gaps in how the type system can ensure your what your outputs will be (even if it's a halt).

<comment><USER4> Sure, in an absolute sense. But in practical terms they are fantastically helpful here.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Reminds me of a bug I found in some Scala code.

      def getString: String = {
        "I am a value to be resolved"
      }

      def wrapper1(auth)(thunk: => String): String = {
        if(auth)
          thunk
      }

      def wrapper2(auth)(valueAlreadyResolved: String): String = {
        if(auth)
          valueAlreadyResolved. // Auth check did nothing, code already ran!!!
      }

      wrapper1(auth)(getString)
      wrapper2(auth)(getString)

These two method signatures/behavior are different but the syntax to call them is identical! One executes "getString" only when the parameter is referenced (v1), the other (v2) executes it before the wrapper is even entered.

This sort of flexibility can be handy, but it can also shoot you in the foot. Some languages like I think Java make you do something like "::getString" to pass a function pointer. That redundancy makes it explicit and prevents the mistake above which could have serious implications.

</comment><comment><USER6> There was some debate at an old job about whether or not to use semicolons in JavaScript. I would just like to remind everyone reading this that if you don't write semicolons in your JavaScript, you are doing it wrong, and we cannot be friends.

<comment><USER7> I've said it before, I'll say it again. Semicolon-free JS is much easier to edit, and the typical foot-guns associated with it can be trivially avoided with a formatter/linter.

<comment><USER8> Semicolon JavaScript is trivially easy to write with a formatter -- just hit format and it inserts semicolons for you. And has no footguns.

<comment><USER7> It's not writing the semis themselves that's the issue - obviously that's trivial.

It's editing lines that have semis. Any "to end of line" operation (and there are tons) you have to think about whether you want the semi or not, which often depends on what the future context will be. This is one of those things where once you get used to "power-editing" in semi-free, it's very difficult to go back. And note that the bulk of my work is semi-d, I only go semi-free on greenfield projects. So it's not a case of having more experience one way or the other.

Any lisper/schemester will tell you that reducing syntax makes power editing simple, but for some reason JS people love their semi's. Beats me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> You use unit tests in Python and Javascript among other things to check for type/value in some places which can be easily avoided if you explicitly used types. Also I often see in imperative languages that unit tests are used to declaratively describe something which you had to imperatively implement. To me it often feels like declarative functional languages have these features immediately as you write the code but then you have to invest the mental effort up front so people rather do half the thinking first then wrap things up with unit tests. The problem is you have to go back to the initial code when wiritng unit tests which fail while you could have done the complete work the first time around. Often it feels like people don't want to do too much work so they choose the language which allows them to offload erorrs for later. It even makes business sense to finish sooner then charge for maintenance later. A shame really

<comment><USER10> > people don't want to do too much work so they choose the language which > allows them to offload erors for later

Replace "people" with business and you are right. I feel many devs would prefer to invest the time once rather than hack it once then go back and add unit tests

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> There are similar stories for gendered articles and conjugation in natural languages. They don't convey any additional information, but in case you miss the word, they provide clues elsewhere in the sentence that significantly constrain what it could have been.

</comment><comment><USER12> > Eliminating redundancy is often viewed as a way to streamline productivity > and reduce waste

AFAICT, that is much more often said about _programs_ (and perhaps libraries) than about programming _languages_.

</comment><comment><USER13> Author here. AMA.

<comment><USER14> Why do you this authors of these programming languages try to creat a different set of keyword names and syntax. If google liked python why not follow the already familiarpython syntax to create go?

<comment><USER15> Different languages have different semantics, so the language designers choose to use a different syntax to reflect the different semantics.

<comment><USER13> We also use different syntax in places where the original was known to be a source of problems.

For a trivial example, `unsigned long long` is annoyingly long to type, `ulong` is much better. `uint64` seems at first impression to be better because the bit length is in the name, but digits are harder to touch-type, not so pleasing to look at, and after using the language for a day the reminder that it is 64 bits gets tedious.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


If Facebook, Google Plus, and YouTube Were Built in 1997.... - <AUTHOR> http://rhizome.org/editorial/2011/dec/9/if-facebook-google-plus-and-youtube-were-built-199/

<comment><AUTHOR> "The transfer speed of our server is limited to 8 kB/s («dial-up» speed)."</comment>


Opinions On A Startup - <AUTHOR>

I have this idea for a startup but in order for it to work, the retail stores (i.e. Walmart, Target, Kmart, etc...) will have to agree to the idea. So my question is should I contatct all the retail stores and tell them about my idea and somehow have them put on paper that they are interested in the idea? <comment><USER2> If you can do that, excellent! But they probably won't commit to anything they can't see.

The better ones I've seen in this category have done something like:

      -Have idea
      -Walk into stores, talk to owners, managers, customers
      -Improve idea
      -Build a simple version of the product
      -Get a store manager you're friends with to trial it
      -Gather lots of data
      -Depending on the data, either iterate or pitch the big chains

The stumbling block is basically that even if you make your product totally free, trying it out still costs the store & manager lots of time. They are paying hourly wages, so employee time is a very real cost. Until you have numbers proving that it does what you hope it does, you'll probably need to count on someone running a free trial as a favour to you (friend, family, alumni network, campus store, etc).

</comment><comment><USER3> It's a long shot and I'm not trying to be cute, but Shark Tank (and the help the sharks can provide by virtue of their connections/experience) might be worth looking into.</comment>


New recycling app - <AUTHOR> I have a new app I have developed  for IOS it uses the UPC code to help figure out how to recycle product packaging .It also lets a user keep track of what he or she recycles. The thought being that if people have information about how to recycle and can see what how much they recycle it will make the get into good habits of recycling.<p>here is the link https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/recyche/id1048809737 <comment><USER2> You might want to repost this as a Show HN post.</comment>


Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-05/japan-turns-to-coal-after-closing-nuclear-power-plants <comment><USER3> A disaster.

I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants (still open to possibility of new fusion plants at some in the future) but from an environmental standpoint it makes far more sense to maintain the existing nuclear plants - at least for now.

The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are _off the table_ with existing plants! Hardening existing plants against possible future catastrophe is probably far cheaper in both economic and human terms than new coal plan construction.

Japan already does pretty good job (relatively speaking) with solar power, but it could do much better with the money it will spend on new coal plants if it built more wind power and fixed up existing nuclear plants.

<comment><USER4> This argument causes some of the problems this argument tries to avoid.

> _I 'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants_

The technology involved in nuclear plants has evolved tremendously, both in terms of efficiency and in terms of safety, but the technology of the new generation is fundamentally different.

> _The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant > construction) are off the table with existing plants!_

Old plants use outdated designs. Nobody would tolerate the 1972 Internet infrastructure nowadays, and yet Chernobyl was created that year, and is still in use.

The main reason old plants stick around instead of being replaced is that Greenpeace and Green parties influence each other into lobbying against building correct reactors.

Take Superphénix: a French Gen IV reactor started construction twelve years _before_ the Chernobyl accident. Its design is still considered next-gen and highly favorable today.

Activists literally fired rocket-propelled grenades at it while it was being built. It got so bad that they had to shut it down.

They tried building a similar Gen IV reactor recently, ASTRID, that improved tremendously even compared to the advanced Superphénix, and it got cancelled six months ago because of lobbies.

So all that remains are old plants… designs that were essentially initial drafts meant to be replaced by better technology, but that never gets shut down because every replacement gets lobbied against.

Those old designs have awful properties, so yeah, we get Chernobyl and Fukushima. We would have had neither if people had let replace the oldest generation. But because of Greenpeace, people died, and fear rose, when all this was unnecessary.

<comment><USER5> I don't follow what you're saying about 'GEN IV' reactors. AFAIK, that's reactors of a type that won't be online until at least 2030: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor)

The primary failure at Fukushima was a sea wall too low for the tsunami that occurred. How is the reactor design relevant?

Also regarding Superphénix, your telling of this seems a bit biased - <USER2> rocket attack occurred in 1982 and it was shut down in 1997 by the prime minister due to excessive cost.

As for whether fast breeder reactors are 'still considered next-gen and highly favorable' see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superphénix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superphénix)

"a group of 80 physicists from the Lyon Physics Institute wrote an open letter about the risks of breeder technology, and in February 1975, about 400 scientists signed their name to an expanded letter."

<comment><USER4> > _I don 't follow what you're saying about 'GEN IV' reactors. AFAIK, that's > reactors of a type that won't be online until at least 2030_

As I mention, Superphénix is a Gen IV, and was finished building in 1981.

> _the primary failure at Fukushima was a sea wall too low for the tsunami > that occurred. How is the reactor design relevant?_

Fukushima melt down because the water destroyed the backup generators. The generators are used to power the pumps. The pumps force coolants to flow, removing heat and therefore avoiding an increase in temperature beyond what is structurally sound.

A typical Gen IV reactor would naturally cool down without need to keep coolant running. For instance, Superphénix immerses the breeder in a liquid sodium coolant that has an effectively unreachable boiling point, tremendous heat capacity, and no corrosion.

<comment><USER5> >As I mention, Superphénix is a Gen IV, and was finished building in 1981.

No, it isn't and wasn't. The Gen IV FBR types are only GFR, SFR, LMFBR and SCWR.

From the link I provided earlier 'In January 2018, it was reported that "the first installation of the pressure vessel cover of the world's first Gen IV reactor" had been completed on the HTR-PM.'

<comment><USER4> > _, it isn 't and wasn't. The Gen IV FBR types are only GFR, SFR, LMFBR and > SCWR._

Superphénix is an SFR. Its first version, Phénix, is literally cited in the official Gen IV description of what an SFR is[0].

Historically, it has not been labeled Gen IV, but only because the Gen IV nomenclature didn't exist at the time.

[0]: [https://www.gen-4.org/gif/jcms/c_9361/sfr](https://www.gen-4.org/gif/jcms/c_9361/sfr)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> munk-a Sigh... we really need more functional nuclear plants that aren't built to use technology from the 70s. I suspect that one reason Bernie is against new nuclear plant creation is the absolute debacle that was Vermont Yankee[1]. Even a lot of pro and pro-ish nuclear folks in Vermont got pretty disheartened by the whole affair.

These plants cost insane capital to get running and mismanagement can cause serious problems, so economic pressures tightening belts (or just greed for higher profits) is a constant force fighting against safety... Newer reactor designs contain much safer critical failure outcomes that could allow them to safely operate - even within the constant profit pressure of modern culture.

1\. General information: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_P...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_Plant)

List of articles from VTDigger on the topic: [https://vtdigger.org/tag/decommission-vermont- yankee/](https://vtdigger.org/tag/decommission-vermont-yankee/)

</comment><comment><USER6> Same thing happened in Germany. This is a really hard problem. I consider myself pretty pro-nuclear but it can never be 100% safe. I can't blame Japan for wanting out after Fukushima, but at the same time there has to be some kind of approach that balances short-term safety against the long-term consequences of carbonization.

<comment><USER7> No energy source is 100% safe. People die when working on windmills and hydroelectric disasters are way more deadly than nuclear disasters. I think 100% safe is an unreasonable requirement.

<comment><USER8> I'd much rather be involved in a hydro-electric disaster than a nuclear one though...

<comment><USER9> Hydro disasters can be dams bursts and are no joke! Thousands dead, towns wiped away, stuff like that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Machchhu_dam_failure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Machchhu_dam_failure)

Luckily not that common especially with well-maintained dams. But it was a huge fear with the Mosul dam in Iraq, which was expected to put over a million lives at risk during the ISIL insurgency: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam)

I'm not anti-hydro at all! But it's important to understand how powerful these dams are...

<comment><USER10> GP was saying, I think, that they'd prefer a quick violent water surge over slow radiation poisoning. You can say good bye, but you might have to do nothing else but saying good bye for an awful low of time (perhaps to similarly doomed people).

I don't have data but I assume that most immediate dam breach deaths are from acute force trauma (and then drowning) rather than from just drowning. Less similar to the slow death of being without a boat in the middle of an ocean than to the hypothetical of getting stomped by the Terry Gilliam foot in Flying Circus.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Japan has been increasing its year over year coal consumption since like, the 70's, and while I'm sure "more coal" isn't a good thing, ~20 Mt a year jumping up to ~21 Mt a year isn't exactly dramatic.

If you happen to take a peek at the coal consumption metrics from around the world, you'll notice a small country a few miles to the west of Japan which currently has the distinct honor of being the only country in the world to measure its annual coal usage in billions of tons instead of millions of tons (although to be fair, India is pretty close to breaking into their first Bt). Thats probably what I'd look into first.

</comment><comment><USER12> Future generations will equate this logic to that of the people who healed all ailments with leeches.

<comment><USER13> There are aiment where leach treatment is suitable, generaly related to restoring blood flow. So mostly frostbite, transplantation and reconnecting of severed tissue (eq. an accidentally cut off ear, etc.)

<comment><USER14> There are problems where fossil fuels are suitable, related to how dense and stable they are to store. So mostly emergency power and/or remote areas (eq. power's down in a remote mountain village, etc.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Knowledgeable nuclear folks:

Is there a way of designing safe nuclear plants in safe places in the world and efficiently exporting that energy to other parts within that same region?

Thank you for your answers. I know v little on the subject but am a big believer in the inherent power that nuclear generates and its' cost effectiveness.

<comment><USER16> Once you're past the distance where transmitting electrical power is feasible, you would probably have to store the energy chemically. In principle you could charge gigantic banks of lithium batteries and then ship the batteries, but that would require infeasible (probably ludicrous) amounts of lithium, and lithium batteries are a pretty inefficient way to chemically store energy.

Alternatively, it probably isn't cost-effective with current technology, but on a fundamental level, you could use a nuclear reactor to power a system that chemically recombined atmospheric CO2 and water back into hydrocarbon fuels. Unlike fossil-derived hydrocarbons, these hydrocarbons would be carbon-neutral since you'd be sourcing all the carbon from the same atmosphere that it would eventually be dumped back into. This is probably going to make sense for things like vehicles, aircraft, rockets, etc. long before it makes sense for power generation, but there are definite benefits. We already have all the necessary technology to burn hydrocarbons, meaning that any improvements in synthesizing hydrocarbon fuels can potentially eliminate the need to switch these things over to batteries or whatnot. Which may be extremely helpful if we run into serious resource constraints over lithium, or if we grow increasingly concerned with the environmental byproducts of lithium battery production.

<comment><USER17> > past the distance where transmitting electrical power is feasible

A 1,100 kV link in China was completed in 2019 over a distance of 3,300 km with a power of 12 GW.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High- voltage_direct_current](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High- voltage_direct_current)

It is feasible to transmit electrical power over far greater distances than most people imagine. For reference Barcelona to Moscow is a 3,000 km flight.

<comment><USER16> Sure, but if you want to be safe and resilient against earthquakes and other natural disasters, those are potentially going to take out long distance transmission lines, too.

<comment><USER18> Then build them to be resilient against that.

<comment><USER16> Sure, whatever. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to build long distance transmission lines, I just wanted to write about a different option because I figured the other subthreads on this post adequately covered the transmission line idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is just sad, I thought the regression of civilization described in Foundation by Issac Asimov was far fetched BS.

How wrong I was! This is the exact example he uses in his books.

<comment><USER20> Sort of, but not really. Asimov worried about us losing the knowledge of nuclear power, and whilst there's a little of that what's really lead to its demise is that as we've learnt more about what's needed to build and operate it over the years it's become less and less viable.

<comment><USER19> > it's become less and less viable.

isn't it because of some unnecessary regulation and some materials technology being behind.

nuclear fission is the second densest form of energy, It is absolutely worthwhile to improve it for the future humanity, IMHO.

I think most countries and national bodies are just giving up on nuclear all together.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Nuclear seems like the best hope for humanity, really a shame people are so afraid of it. Although, I guess the fear is justified given how many disasters there have been.

<comment><USER22> [https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-power-world- energy.htm...](https://phys.org/news/2011-05-nuclear-power-world-energy.html) casts doubt on the future of Nuclear growing anywhere near enough to be a best-hope; scaling it up to world energy production of 15TW seems infeasible - burning through the available Uranium supplies in ~5 years - even scaling it up to 1TW would stretch many resources used in nuclear reactor construction such as rare elements.

<comment><USER13> I would assume the numbers would look very differently if breader reactors and alternative nuclear fuel sources (thorium) would be considered.

<comment><USER22> Thorium is mentioned in the article; availability of halfnium, beryllium, and other rare metals for the containment shielding " _is a new argument that Abbott puts on the table, which places resource limits on all future- generation nuclear reactors, whether they are fueled by thorium or uranium._ "

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> As of [Dec 9, 2019], there are nine reactors officially in operation.

Another six reactors have made improvements to meet the new, post-3/11 quake safety standards and have received NRA approval to restart.

 _What about the future for nuclear power in Japan?_

The government's long-term energy policy for 2030 calls for nuclear power to make up around 20 to 22 percent of the nation's energy mix, and it is pushing hard for the restart of as many idled reactors as possible.

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/12/09/reference/japan...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/12/09/reference/japan- nuclear-power-onagawa-reactor-restart/)

Has there been a new development where the Japanese government "abandoned nuclear energy" sometime in the last two months?

</comment><comment><USER23> Something doesn't add up here.

Why would Japan, who is facing a declining population and hardly has a growing manufacturing industry require twenty new coal plants?

Seems like there might be a conspiracy involved here if this is true. Maybe someone in the Government has a vested interest in pushing this ?

Right now Japan runs on very little Nuclear, I can't imagine it would take 20 new plants to replace a few older dying reactors, they seem to be coping now just fine.

Once the Tokyo Olympics is a disaster from the extreme heat waves and one strong typhoon after another, people won't be happy about this policy. People in Japan are really starting to get concerned about climate change after the lack of snow this season which has seriously affected tourism and is an obvious wake up call for many people in the country side.

How backwards and disappointing this new is.

</comment><comment><USER24> One thing this article doesn't cover which was a big part of this decision was nuclear waste. Nobody wants nuclear waste sites in their prefectures. There was a plan to use breeder reactors, but that hasn't gone anywhere, and the waste is just piling up at the reactor sites with absolutely no place to dispose it. When the mayor of Osaka even hinted at making an underwater waste site the backlash was huge. I doubt any other politicians will step up after that (nor will their parties allow it). So with waste being in this deadlock state for decades, there's just no way forward for nuclear here.

<comment><USER17> > this decision

What decision? This appears to be a Bloomberg opinion piece, I see not a single reference or statement from the Japanese government.

"Another six reactors have made improvements to meet the new, post-3/11 quake safety standards and have received NRA approval to restart."

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/12/09/reference/japan...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/12/09/reference/japan- nuclear-power-onagawa-reactor-restart/)

As recently as December last year reactors had restart approval.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is the perfect example of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

</comment><comment><USER26> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22262467](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22262467)

</comment><comment><USER27> Environmentalists just can't get out of their own way. Solar and wind were never viable alternatives to replace nuclear in Japan. It was always going to be coal.

But when good is the enemy of perfect this is what you get. So let's raise our glasses to the next decade of coal energy in Japan. Congratulations environmentalists, you won! You killed nuclear!

<comment><USER28> Nonsense. "Environmentalists" (a crude & politically inactive umbrella term) can't even get nations to do the minimum necessary for long-term survival (stop catastrophic rates of wetland & forest destruction even in wealthy nations, reduce CO2 emissions, etc, etc, etc). Greens (for example) hardly get elected anywhere outside of a couple of European nations.

It is true there is public resistance to nuclear power, almost everywhere. And the _very same citizenries which don 't want nuclear power_ also vote against action on climate change, for the corporatacracy, & for the generalised sacrifice of the biosphere for fake 'economic growth'.

People don't want nuclear power because they are scared of it being near them (rightly or wrongly). This has zip to do with environmentalism.

<comment><USER27> Nonsense. Fear or nuclear is a result of decades of lobbying and fear mongering by anti nuclear environmentalists.

<comment><USER29> There also were decades of lobbying and mismanagement that made the fear mongering possible. Nuclear has a bad reputation because it deserves one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I have to wonder if this is a deal with China, since it makes Japan less energy independent and the leading political party is known for nonstop corruption scandals and some ties to China. China will likely be a big seller of that coal and profit off this big time, same as they will with the recent bizarre casino legalization plan.

<comment><USER17> The world production of coal is dominated by the People's Republic of China with 47.4% of global production. China also dominates the global consumption of coal with 51.6% of the world demand in 2017.

[http://energyatlas.iea.org/#!/tellmap/2020991907](http://energyatlas.iea.org/#!/tellmap/2020991907)

China has no coal to spare to sell to Japan, they need it all. As the world's fastest growing major economy their electricity and thus coal demand will go up, not down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm generally in favor of nuclear power but the overruns and delays for constructing units 3 and 4 of the Vogtle nuclear plant is frustrating, especially since rate payers rather than investors are footing most of the extra cost. Shamefully the exact same thing happened during construction of units 1 and 2.

</comment><comment><USER32> There's another solution to the problem of the environmental cost of energy production: reduce consumption. Is there anyone who would not agree that we, humans, are over-consuming?

<comment><USER33> Reducing consumption on a meaningful scale is completely impractical, particularly when you include emerging economies, who need to _increase_ their energy consumption in order to attain a reasonable standard of living.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Japan and Germany should be ashamed of themselves. Tragic.

</comment><comment><USER35> Funny how quickly this Bloomberg article manages to segue into "Bernie Sanders doesn't want poor people to have electricity"

</comment><comment><USER23> What's safer at this point, nuclear or coal?

A meltdown is terrible, burning coal which intensifies climate change is spelling the end of civilization.

I don't really think it's optional anymore. Shut the coal down, move with other technologies.

</comment><comment><USER36> Fukushima reactor design was terrible. Like legit bad. I wonder if open source nuclear power plants plans are the future.

<comment><USER37> I'm a big advocate of open source but if a nuclear reactor based on an open- source project would be opened close to me, I'd pack up and move as far as I could.

<comment><USER38> Open source in this context would mean that the design is open for public review, not that random people get commit rights to the design data. An open source project could easier combine energineering efforts by several professional sources than a design created by a single company though.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best ML/AI libraries for extracting dominant colors from images - <AUTHOR> If you do any sort of color extraction from images, what is your best tool to do so, preferably in the form of a plug-and-play library you can throw at an image file?
We've been playing with our own algorithms, but they leave something to be desired, and I wonder if we're trying to reinvent the wheel if this is a solved problem.
Thank you, HN. <comment><USER2> I took a class on computer vision and we used the OpenCV library extensively [0]. I remember that we had a project relating to detecting certain traffic signs, and obtaining the dominant color of images was a big part of my solution. Also, this tutorial seems like it would be helpful [1].

[0] [https://opencv.org/](https://opencv.org/) [1] [https://code.likeagirl.io/finding-dominant-colour-on-an- imag...](https://code.likeagirl.io/finding-dominant-colour-on-an- image-b4e075f98097)</comment>


The web sucks–you just don't know it (2004) - <AUTHOR> http://nothings.org/writing/websucks.html <comment><AUTHOR> Aside from the many great soundbites in it, the thing I like most about this article is that its author is Sean Barrett, whose background is in game development and as a traditional, pre-Web client programmer. (See [1].)

Usually, the same way that ecosystems stratify around languages, opinions in questions of tech advocacy tends to stratify based on developer background. Most of the progression in web standards that the author is against has been bolstered by the attitude from people that hail from his background. (Roughly, that camp's attitude tends to resemble something like, _just give the developer the ability he or she needs in order to do what he or she wants_.) It's the exact attitude that gave rise to developer-first QOL improvements like WebAssembly and many other things that have popped up in the nearly 1.5 decades after this was written.

This is notable because that camp's overriding perspective is the exact _opposite_ of the author's own grumble about "your experience interacting with the web could be vastly better, but browser authors are instead caught up in enhancing the abilities of content creators". I.e., the author prioritizes a user-first perspective, recognizing that the developer-first mindset has almost always been in conflict with his ideal vision for the Web, despite his own background.

There's also the really great breakdown of Web content as type #1 vs #2 vs #3, which predates similar descriptions that I'd only seen start to become independently written about in the last several years—probably after 2011 or so.

In my opinion, this essay is as on-the-nose, as brutal, and as important as Maciej Ceglowski's similar and often referenced takes ("Legends of the Ancient Web", and "The Website Obesity Crisis").

1\. [http://nothings.org/gamedev/how_i_found_myself_in_the_game_i...](http://nothings.org/gamedev/how_i_found_myself_in_the_game_industry.html)</comment>


11 Unusual Methods for Being a Great Public Speaker - <AUTHOR> http://www.jamesaltucher.com/?p=2194

<comment><USER2> From <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html> :

        In Submissions
        ...
        If the original title begins with a number ... we'd
        appreciate it if you'd crop it.</comment>