David Byrne's Survival Strategies for Emerging Artists - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne?currentPage=all <comment><AUTHOR> Two things: First, I didn't realize at first it was from 2007; I noticed that only after I went back to get the link to send to a friend. I still think it's interesting and relevant.

Second: Reading Byrne's description of what is music, and how it was tied to social events, I thought to myself that, well, people could play music themselves, and if not so inclined could whistle, hum, or sing without needing other people. Then I imagined a world where all music had to be generated by people, or, more to the point, where playing music was not ubiquitous and easy.

What a weird existence that would make.

I realize there are people today who live this way, but I have a very hard time really understanding what that means, how that changes life.

<comment><USER2> Actually, playing or singing music would become ubiquitous and easy. You'd know hundreds of very singable songs. You'd hear live music almost everywhere you went in a city. Group musical activities such as concerts and dances would become very popular again. The art of writing music would probably approach its former levels over several generations (once the low point generations had passed on.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Now that a group the size of a band can produce a product are there any "record labels" for tech products? I know I wish there were someone I could go to for my products to handle the functions below that David Byrne lists as label responsibilities - I just want to make stuff, not run a business:

Fund recording sessions (VCs / Angels do this)

Manufacture product (Many Contract manufacturers exist)

Distribute product (SparkFun, ThinkGeek, Seeedstudio)

Market product (Do contract marketeers exist?)

Loan and advance money for tour expenses tours.

Advise and guide artists on their careers and recordings Handle the accounting

</comment><comment><USER4> i wasn't quite so successful when i submitted this article at the time it was written: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=105027>

</comment><comment><USER5> I really enjoyed the conversations between Brian Eno and David Byrne supporting the article.

</comment><comment><USER6> For those who enjoyed this article, Byrne writes a superb blog: <http://journal.davidbyrne.com/>

</comment><comment><USER7> Anyone know how much it costs to start a small indie record label? Or how much capital existing ones started with?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good question. Depends on what a record label is supposed to do. Some things that come to mind: Curation, publicity, managing (if not actually providing) distribution of recorded material.

Seems an MVP of a record label could start with next to nothing if you know how to promote on the cheap.

A more involved label might front a musician the cost of pressing physical material (CDs, vinyl) , maybe arrange tours (for those so inclined). Maybe help hire a decent producer when needed.

Anyone here work with or for, or own, a label?

<comment><USER8> I'm in the process of starting one, mainly for the purpose of publishing my own band.

What you need is an artist, a distributor and a handful of cash. A record label is in the business of creating and marketing the actual product, and the minimum cost is the price of pressing and shipping the records. The label might also front the money for recording, mixing, mastering, and hiring a designer to do the artwork. Booking, management and live promotion is usually a separate business area, but with indie music you'll often find bands, labels and promotion overlapping quite a bit.

The tricky part is of course getting your product in the hands of your customers. Selling them online is one option, but if you want to get the records into stores, you really need to partner with one or more distributors. They take a percentage of the price (20% is a good number), and have established channels for promoting, selling and shipping the product.

We're doing the first release on a shoestring budget. We've recorded and mixed everything ourselves, and traded services with a designer and photographer. I haven't gotten a quote from the pressing plant yet, but I've budgeted $500 for professional mastering and around $2000 for the first run of 500 12" records. CDs are alot cheaper (about half, I think). We need to sell around half to break even,

Add in the costs for professional recording, mixing, artwork and promotion, subtract the money for the artist and the margin for the distributor and record store, and you'll see that you'll have to sell ALOT of records to make a decent profit. A couple of thousand unit solds is a big success for a small artist.

Bigger labels will invest in artists expecting that most of the releases will be losing money, hoping to score a hit once in a while that will turn a profit.

Starting an indie label in 2011 is not exactly a brilliant career move unless you're exceptionally savvy, but it's a fun and not too expensive hobby.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is such a refreshing thing to read because it cuts through all the reddit/armchair/whatever "record companies are going to die" and presents a more balanced picture.

Also Byrne gives Bob Hurwitz, who I consider one of the greats in the business his due.

All this applies today, even though this is an old article. I think it is telling that in the past four years since this was written, a lot of the things he talks about did happen, but it also got substantially worse.

The great thing is: the holes that are there, where the record companies aren't servicing artists are getting filled by entrepreneurs who are making services and tools to fill the gaps. Songkick, Eventful, Soundcloud, TopSpin, Bandcamp, etc. All making good on the promises that labels aren't anymore.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'd never heard of ithinkmusic.com before, but have been looking at soundcloud.com and topspinmedia.com.

Anyone here have any experience as an artist using these sites?

<comment><USER10> I'm not an artist, but as someone buying music online I really like bandcamp.

Soundcloud seems more like a github for music to me, a place where musicians and listeners talk and collaborate about music, not a place where users like me would go to download or purchase a finished album.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Classic quote: _"Not everyone is as smart as those nerdy Radiohead boys. Pete Doherty probably should not be handed the steering wheel."_

</comment><comment><USER12> Great link, thanks. I just quit my coding job to spend a few months on the analog side of things. We'll see how it goes.</comment>


Ask HN: How will you invest your money in 2020? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> What kind of money?

Retirement? 70/30 index funds (mix of stock/corp bonds for the 70, short term bonds, tips and money market for the 30).

Emergency fund? Money market.

Other funds? Mix of stock market, credit union account and real estate.

</comment><comment><USER3> Same as I did for the past 9 years. A diversified mix of Vanguard index funds (with VTI, VXUS and BND being the largest, roughly 70/30 split these days). It might go down like in 2018, it might go up like in 2019, but statistically it will go up. My IRR is ~8%, which is wonderful.

</comment><comment><USER4> Small sum at say $2-3k? Working from home until Easter, so possibly some cheap tech for a small computer vision, mechatronics, AI lab aimed at reinforcement learning: 3d printer, r&d drone, mini-car, a few robotic arms, plenty of connectors and sensors plus some Raspberry brains.

</comment><comment><USER5> 10% index funds. 90% everything else (this includes ETFs).

</comment><comment><USER6> Vanguard index funds mostly.</comment>


Goodbye-Barnes-and-Noble - <AUTHOR> http://keithp.com/blogs/Goodbye-Barnes-and-Noble/ <comment><USER3> The author's complaint was confusing to me because it didn't have enough context.

This is a better article:

[http://www.teleread.com/drm/barnes-noble-removes-ability- to-...](http://www.teleread.com/drm/barnes-noble-removes-ability-to-download- its-e-books-outside-of-the-nook-ecosystem/)

The author's article didn't mention "Nook" or "Nook ecosystem" which is crucial to inferring the motivations of B&N (and also the publishers) to remove the Download button. Without that context, it just looks like a random policy change that inadvertently irritated customers.

In other words, I care more about

1) the "big picture" behind removing that download button

rather than

2) the author's personal decision to stop buying ebooks from them

As a reader, I can conclude #2 from #1. But I can't figure out #1 from #2 unless I find another article such as the one I added.

<comment><USER4> No surprise. The pedantic nature of your complaint is common on HN.

I found the post to be perfectly clear. Perhaps you are looking for more information, and found it elsewhere, but it doesn't affect the quality of the post at all.

In my day, posts like yours would be considered'trolling'. If you have complaints with the article, communicate with the author. Why subject everyone to your random complaints?

<comment><USER3> >If you have complaints with the article, communicate with the author.

Complaining to the author isn't necessary because he may have thought the context was obvious -- especially to his keithp.com readers and also some HN readers such as you.

I read HN articles every day and yet, I didn't have enough background to connect the dots. I didn't know B&N had a download button. My amazon ebooks account doesn't have that. I had no mental picture to understand what this download button was about.

>Why subject everyone to your random complaints?

I took extra steps to understand why things played out the way they did to force the author away from B&N. I thought it would be helpful to inform other HN readers of the link I read to gain that understanding. Isn't the comments section to be used to discuss/clarify/disagree with the article?

<comment><USER5> > I read HN articles every day and yet, I didn't have enough background to > connect the dots. I didn't know B&N had a download button. My amazon ebooks > account doesn't have that. I had no mental picture to understand what this > download button was about.

I agree, because I've never purchased from B&N before, I didn't have that context available either to fully appreciate the author's point. Hence why your link was useful to me as well.

That's not to say the original article was without interest. It was, but superficially, (to me) it seemed like a disaffected customer upset with a UI change/removal (which is understandable).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's funny, but whenever I run into weird DRM restrictions, I tend to switch to piracy. When I had no income, I never would have bought, and while I did pirate, no sales were lost. Now that I have income, I don't mind buying. But if buying is sufficiently more cumbersome, I do sometimes go back to piracy.

I'd love to see a proper market study on this. As far as I can tell, all of this is based on ego and executives' knee-jerk reactions.

<comment><USER7> That's the big draw of piracy for me as well - not that I can get out of paying for stuff, but that it's easier (by a mile) than trying to get it the legitimate way. Example: a few weeks ago, I wanted to catch up on The Strain before that night's episode. Went online to try to find a legitimate way to watch it, got blocked because my cable provider (Charter) wasn't on the list of blessed providers. Same story at Hulu. I wanted to watch it, and watch the ads, so they could get their revenue, because that's how the economy works. But they wouldn't let me, so I turned to PB and, after <5 minutes, had the full episode ready to watch with 0 advertisements.

Piracy will continue until there's an easier way to acquire and own content.

<comment><USER8> Interestingly, some technologies have made me take the opposite route. Now that I have chromecast, I find it more convenient to buy a movie on Google and cast it rather than pirate it and watch on a laptop.

Of course, you can open the video in a chrome tab and cast that, but I've found that's not as smooth. And nothing beats the convenience of a simple touch :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I like not having to make room for all of my books in my house, but when you can't access the book you bought, that kind of makes the whole thing not work. I have bought hundreds of ebooks, but I still am uncomfortable with not really owning them. I de-drm my books so B&N can't just take them back (without a refund) whenever they feel like it, but it sucks that you have to break the rules just to have any rights to your own purchases.

On another note, I like to go to B&N to browse and just hang out. The last time I was there, the coffee shop lady hassled me. It was a very unpleasant experience. I heard from a friend of mine that she had the same experience. Apparently, if they see you there and not spending enough money, they start harassing you. Ironically, I was in the process of buying a book on my laptop when she came by to inform me that I needed to make a purchase if I wanted to keep using the internet there. Were they going to kick me out if I didn't buy coffee? I was only there for my lunch break, so I never found out. I think in the future, I'll just go to Starbucks where they still leave me in peace.

<comment><USER10> >The last time I was there, the coffee shop lady hassled me. It was a very unpleasant experience. I heard from a friend of mine that she had the same experience. Apparently, if they see you there and not spending enough money, they start harassing you.

I'll take "Things that will make me spend even less money in that store" for $800, Alex.

Between this and shuttering DRM based services after promising you can buy the tracks you love, etc... I really have to wonder why companies haven't stopped and asked themselves why what they are doing isn't working.

Nah, it can't be us, they'll think... so let's double down on the restrictions, pressure selling tactics and blame the dirty pirates when our bottom line continues to slip.

Meanwhile, those dirty pirates aren't dealing with any of this bullshit.

<comment><USER11> "those dirty pirates"

There is an interesting analogy between "dirty pirates" and teens in malls.

Pretty much everyone younger than myself has had the experience of mall security severely hassling them as a teen or even as a young adult, pretty much just because their rentacops have a license to be jerks. Well, here I am a rather well paid dude with fat stacks of cash, but the mall doesn't want my type there, so it never even appears on the radar anymore. Malls are dead to anyone younger than perhaps 40. Not surprisingly they're generally not doing so well financially. Lots of dead / dying malls across the country.

If a company hates their primary and future customers enough, eventually those customers WILL go away permanently.

With B+N it might be location based or racial harassment etc because my screaming little kids (is there any other kind?) and I shop there and they don't mess with me. Then again I pass for a non-minority middle aged reasonably well dressed middle class dude. I suspect that is the key to their unwritten harassment policies.

<comment><USER12> "the mall doesn't want my type there"

What happens when you go to the mall? What type are you? I sometimes visited malls while under 40 and I never got hassled, so I'm curious.

<comment><USER11> What I'm getting at is perhaps 20 years ago there was hysteria about teens in malls being disruptive / troublemakers therefore rentacops to chase them away so the financially valuable moms and dads can shop in peace and comfort. I knew about the crackdown so I never even bothered going to the mall as a teen. As a young adult at lunch hour at my first real job, a business formal suit and tie establishment, I bought some nice expensive clothes, walking thru the mall to my car after obviously shopping at my lunch (I took off the sports coat of my business suit) and got severely hassled by a rentacop about what I'm doing there and where are my parents, etc. Pretty much like I heard they treat teens except they didn't call the cops and issue a loitering ticket to me. Never went back there again.

The long term problem with treating teens like dirt, is they eventually grow up into adults some of which have fat stacks of cash and would make fantastic customers, however there's no way in hell they're ever going back to that place again.

It appears mall security was very effective there. Nothing left in there but urbanware clothing, tennis shoes, cell phones, and really cheap jewelry left. Its not that the neighborhood has done downhill, can't count how many million dollar condos within a mile.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Barnes & Noble is missing the biggest opportunity in ebook sales. They do little to nothing to show the ebook value to shoppers visiting the store with the purpose of buying a book.

The physical store has limited space for books, so they only have the newest and most popular. BN needs to stock the self with paper leaflets of 2nd and 3rd tier books that could be bought in the online store. The leaflet could contain a QR code so shoppers could buy the book right then using their phone.

This would expose more people to the online ebook store and draw them into titles that BN can't stock physically. They could even give them a "free" first book to incentivize people into signing up. Educate the staff to help non-technical shoppers sign-up and get their book.

The overall experience would be to teach people how to use the nook app to buy books. Once people are comfortable with the process they will be apt to buy more books through the app.

<comment><USER14> Contrast Amazon's standard bonus of giving you .MP3s of an album if you buy the CD, and the growing number of movies sold as DVD/BD _and_ digital bundle. Fond of both the convenience of digital media and the objective ownership of physical media, one of the minor but real hinderances I've had in buying books is having to choose the medium - let me pay a buck or two more and get both formats.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Sort of tangential, but my first job was working in a Barnes & Noble, and it's still the one I miss the most. More than that, while I do believe electronic distribution is both more ecologically rational and practically efficient, I'm one of those people who was raised on physical books as an avid reader... and there really is something very significant lost without that tactile experience.

I suppose it's positive that more and more people will grow up without that, so we can cut down on the number of trees we cut down, but it's still sad in a way to see that experience going away. The feel (and even sound and smell, in some cases) of a book can be very intimate.

<comment><USER16> For me the tactile experience is incredibly important, especially as a software engineer that stares at a screen most of the day. Experiencing an object on more than just one level is something I think we've lost a lot of. Reading a substantial book electronically has almost no appeal to me and I love to read.

<comment><USER17> People learn in different ways, and I remember reading, perhaps in [Pragmatic Thinking and Learning]([https://pragprog.com/book/ahptl/pragmatic-thinking- and-learn...](https://pragprog.com/book/ahptl/pragmatic-thinking-and- learning)), that your tactile sense is as important for learning as your visual and aural senses, and so on.

I like the smell of books, too.

<comment><USER18> I doubt tactility (from a learning perspective) really comes into play while reading a book, as opposed to on a screen. That's not to denigrate paper book reading as an enjoyable experience, but let's not go overboard :)

<comment><USER19> For me it's a matter of quickly referencing material. For whatever reason, I seem to recall where things are roughly by the thickness of the stack of pages. The percentage bar on the Kindle doesn't replicate that. And flipping between pages on a device just takes too long. So, I have a hard time reading any sort of reference material on a Kindle.

<comment><USER20> Why not search for some keyword?

<comment><USER19> It's never as fast and document search on e-readers seems to be straight word match rather than any form of intelligent indexing. If I don't recall where something is, it's almost always faster to use the book's index than it is to naively search through the doc, in my experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've been restricting what stores I purchase ebooks from because of DRM. Fiction from Baen and Dragonmount, CS from O'Reilly, etc.. I've been thinking of building a book scanner to make my physical collection more portable.

Interestingly, I have no problem buying games on Steam, though many are via GOG and Humble, where I can still download a copy too.

<comment><USER22> Bear in mind not all Steam games come with DRM. It is required for things like the Steam marketplace though, which can often add a lot to the game.

Kerbal Space Program was quite reluctant to launch on Steam as they didn't want to add the DRM, once they found it wasn't required (or Steam relaxed the rules) they did so and now sell it there and on their own store.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> > After I got home, I had to figure out how to get Adobe Digital Editions > installed on my laptop

Don't.

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/adobe-spyware- reveals-...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/adobe-spyware-reveals- again-price-drm-your-privacy-and-security)

I recommend using Google's Play Books, which you can read on your PC from this link, after you upload them (preferably epubs):

[https://play.google.com/books](https://play.google.com/books)

I actually prefer it, too. It looks nicer, and you can sync them with your Android devices, too.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm a little confused - if you purchase an ebook, but aren't allowed to download it, how are you meant to read it?

<comment><USER25> You are meant to use one of their sanctioned devices. Those devices connect to their servers, do some arcane handshake and receive a copy of the book.

<comment><USER26> That's insane. You might as well buy real books! That's just as arcane

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I haven't purchased ebooks through Barnes and Noble, but I understand how annoying it can be getting all the ebook stores/ecosystems/formats/devices to play nice with each other. It was the reason I continued to buy paper books up until recently.

My solution: buy your ebook in any store that allows downloads (Amazon, Google, Kobo), and import into Calibre. Change settings to automatically convert imported ebooks to .epub format if they aren't already (the DRM- stripping plugin is optional ;-)). Set your library folder to dropbox, and voila, you have unfettered access from anywhere (and transferring to your Kobo Aura is easy too).

<comment><USER28> This is exactly what I've been doing and it works fine for me. Like you, I just buy from wherever sells.

By stopping downloads, they're obviously trying to stop piracy, but if other companies follow suit, surely there will be technical solution found sooner or later. Maybe they're just trying to do as much as they can.

Perhaps they don't know that those of us who download and strip DRM aren't necessarily pirates - just looking after own own (legally purchased) books in a system that we prefer?

<comment><USER27> As long as there are multiple sources where you can download your paid-for ebook, this decision by B&N will accomplish nothing, other than killing potential sales to people like us.

I don't mind paying $10 for an ebook. I just want a good user experience. This means no DRM and full control of the content.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Remember, when you pay money for ebooks with DRM, you are only leasing them, not buying them.

[https://twitter.com/evmcl/status/261661956681908225/photo/1](https://twitter.com/evmcl/status/261661956681908225/photo/1)

[http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon- drm/](http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/)

[http://the-digital-reader.com/2012/10/23/kobo-says-youre-no-...](http://the- digital-reader.com/2012/10/23/kobo-says-youre-no-longer-allowed-to-share-your- account-not-with-a-spouse-your-kids-anyone/#.VFFysX8sVcM)

[https://twitter.com/librarythingtim/status/14262859728958259...](https://twitter.com/librarythingtim/status/142628597289582593)

</comment><comment><USER30> In the end we shall have: Walled gardens - kindle, nook, etc... Regular Printed books Free stuff

The free stuff will consist of: Books with expired copyright - <USER2> Gutenberg Books that authors decided to give away for various reasons Illegal copies of stuff

The illegal copies are the reason for the walled gardens of course. This unfortunately doesn't help the blogger who wants to transfer his stuff to different devices, but that's the problem with DRM.

Anyone selling non-DRM books is likely not to be as profitable, will not get big names in their catalog, and will either fail or stay second rate.

Meanwhile, B&N stores are full of people. IMHO they would have to screw up badly to go out of business in the next few years. ebooks just aren't that great from a business perspective.

</comment><comment><USER31> The thing that kills me about Barnes and Noble, Books-A-Million, Borders, etc. is how they are slowly expanding the toy section of the stores. It's pretty much gotten to the point where they are stocking so few books I want, there is no point in making the trip. I would go in hopes of getting the book now instead of waiting a couple days for shipping.

Every-time they said, "Sorry sir, we don't have that book in stock, but we can order it for you" I would excuse myself from the conversation, load up the amazon app while walking, and have it ordered before I had my car door open.

</comment><comment><USER32> Open Letter to B&N - [http://tenletters.org/](http://tenletters.org/)

So, I wrote this open letter to B&N about a 2 weeks ago and just haven't gotten around to posting it yet. I was waiting until I managed to track down the e-mail addresses of some of the big wigs, but since this seems relevant I'll post it here as well. Once I've gotten the e-mails out to B&N I'm going to submit this on here as well as a couple other places.

<comment><USER33> I made it through almost three paragraphs of that. I expect your target audience will make it through much less. You may want to condense this before you send it out.

<comment><USER34> The nice phrase for tl;dr is "executive summary" because big wigs don't need to bother with ill-written text.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> All DRM is evil. If I meet any resistance through legitimate routes, I'll turn to piracy in a heartbeat. The digital media industry needs to get their shit together.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have a Kindle Paperwhite (gen 1) but have been itching to get out from under Amazon's thumb. I hear a lot about the Kobo devices. Are there any alternate e-ink readers that aren't tied to a particular ecosystem? I would love a simple device that's just a reader supporting the common formats without network connectivity, online stores, or any of that other cruft.

</comment><comment><USER37> You can pull the books off the SD card on an Android phone running the Nook app. That's how I've been doing it since they disabled downloads. Quite annoying though. I used to price shop between them and Amazon, but now I lean towards just buying direct from Amazon unless there's a very large price differential.

</comment><comment><USER38> Considering I cannot download copies of my iBooks purchases via the web, a more valid complaint (in my opinion) would be that you need a valid form of payment on file with B&N before you can re-download already purchased items.

There's some real nonsense.

</comment><comment><USER39> B&N is embedded in all the college bookstores and has solid pipelines there. I think right now their ebook focus is on developing their e-textbook rental program.

They've got an edge there that Amazon can't hit too hard.

</comment><comment><USER40> This whole subject is a source of never ending amusement to me. I am a book lover and still read paper books and each year that goes by I feel increasingly like some kind of rebel.</comment>


Show HN: RxResume – A free and open-source resume builder - <AUTHOR> https://rx-resume.web.app <comment><USER2> There is also [https://resumake.io/](https://resumake.io/) which generates resume as a latex document. Github repo [https://github.com/saadq/resumake.io](https://github.com/saadq/resumake.io)

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, I did not know about this one. And it's pretty amazing, both design-wise and functionality-wise. Kinda makes mine seem pretty boring :D

Kudos to the developer :)

<comment><USER3> Something similar: [https://cv.me/](https://cv.me/) . But yours has more templates that i like.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is a great app! But it is so weird seeing photos on a CV. In the UK it is almost totally unheard of. And most large organisations will have an HR department which would blank them out.

Your CV is for judging your work history and experience. What can I learn from a photo that I would legally be able to take a decision about?

<comment><AUTHOR> Photographs on a Resume, I've heard is a standard in the EU. That's what I was told when I was applying to Jobs in Germany. And it's pretty common here in India as well.

But I completely understand where you are coming from. Photos can cause bias in the hiring process and it's certainly debatable. That's why I've provided the option to either add an image or not have one, and designed the templates especially to fit both use cases.

<comment><USER5> That's really interesting! I've never gotten a resume with a photo here in the US.

<comment><USER6> In the US a resume with a photo will be discarded immediately by most companies. I suspect companies have written policies that say no photo resumes allowed.

The simple reason is that a photo just opens up a ton of bias accusations. There is literally 0 information a photo can provide that can be legally used to make hiring decisions, but on the other hand, there are a whole host of biases it can introduce.

<comment><USER7> Then you shouldn,t be allowed to put your name on your application either.

<comment><USER8> This is why some people choose to use their initials.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is literally the best thing ever. I love the fact that you have everything I could ever want - colors, refresh the screen right away, and different designs too.

Bonus points for keeping everything offline because if I use this I would be afraid you would be keeping track of my keystrokes as I type in all of my personal information into the form. < \- Please don't ever do this, anyone who may read this comment.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey there!

Thank you so much :) That was exactly what I was going for, complete privacy and complete customization possibilities. Plus, a lot of my friends keep saying that I have good resume design skills as I've made mine, and I used to release templates as PSD or Figma documents previously, but not everyone could edit them, so that's why I made this :)

I would never ever make it monetized or put ads or collect personal data in any sort of way. In all honesty, the only thing I have on the site is a Google Analytics script, and that's just to see how many people are using the site (to fuel my ego :D). But even that can be disabled if you use few browser extensions.

I really hope you keep using the app, please do let me know how I can make the experience much better :) Thank you!

<comment><USER10> > and that's just to see how many people are using the site (to fuel my ego > :D)

Depending on whether you have access to your server logs, consider using something like GoAccess [1] instead.

Kudos for your project :)

[1] [https://goaccess.io/](https://goaccess.io/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I am working on a "post-resume" product that helps developers express their skills, interests and preferences in a way that seeks to better connect devs to opportunities and eliminate the repetitive and low value questions in most phone screens.

It's very alpha, but I'd love to hear what folks think. Here's an example profile:

[https://fizbuz.com/u/elginskye](https://fizbuz.com/u/elginskye)

I plan to ship a public GraphQL API that makes your data available for any use you can imagine, including generating a "standard" resume or building a personal website.

</comment><comment><USER12> I started typing in a hex colour, and the page disappeared. And it's persistently broken. (This is probably the biggest problem with storing persistent data, even including persistent caches of server data: if it's broken, it _stays_ broken. A great strength of the web historically was that reloading the page made things work again.)

Other than that, it looked better than most such things I've seen.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hmm, that's weird. I had stress-tested the color options as much as I could. Even now, when I enter gibberish in the text field, it just doesn't do anything as the CSS is invalid. No reason the app should crash.

But anyway, I'll try to add some validation across the app so that this doesn't happen again. For now, to fix any issues at all, you only need to clear your local storage of the site. Here's how you can clear Local Storage on Chrome ([https://www.leadshook.com/help/how-to-clear-local-storage- in...](https://www.leadshook.com/help/how-to-clear-local-storage-in-google- chrome-browser/)), similar steps for other browsers too.

Please let me know if that resolved the issue temporarily for you.

<comment><USER12> Still hitting problems. I enter some details, pick what I think is the third theme, choose a shade of orange, then in the accent colour field press backspace, and it dies.

      TypeError: "can't access property "r", r is null"
        ye Gengar.js:7
        React 7
        unstable_runWithPriority scheduler.production.min.js:19
        React 9
        unstable_runWithPriority scheduler.production.min.js:19
        React 18
        251 index.js:20
        i (index):1
        70 main.f5214b72.chunk.js:1
        i (index):1
        t (index):1
        r (index):1
        <anonymous> main.f5214b72.chunk.js:1
      react-dom.production.min.js:209:194
      TypeError: can't access property "r", r is null
      Gengar.js:7:21

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much for the detailed explanation on how to recreate the bug. I found it and squashed it, the new version should be up soon. Sorry for the inconvenience, hope the app works fine for you now :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Ah, I did something similar at some point when looking for a job.

Only has a single template though. But my main concern was being able to export to both word and pdf, because recruiters always want word documents.

[https://resumedrone.com/](https://resumedrone.com/)

I really like the way the templates look on yours :)

May have to try and implement live preview myself.

<comment> T3OU-736 On MSWord format vs PDF:

Whilst interviewing people, if I know their resume came via a recruiter, I tend to ask for their real one. The reason is not to cut the recruiter out of the process. Rather, it is to make sure the resume (and the questions about its content) are based on an unaltered version. Sadly, some recruiters will modify a resume to fit the position description, and the process, make claims on behalf of the candidate which are... untrue.

So, PDF, being more difficult to modify, seems safer.

<comment><USER13> Oh, I agree as a hiring manager, but as an applicant I just cannot be bothered to keep replying that I don't have a word version.

I used to say they can get it in either PDF or JSON ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is really great! It's easy to use, intuitive, and overall just really well done.

Small heads up, there are many dead scrollbars: [https://i.imgur.com/FImuHVn.png](https://i.imgur.com/FImuHVn.png)

If you are developing on OSX, I recommend turning on scrollbars to make detecting dead scrollbars easier.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, man. This has been a problem ever since I moved to macOS. Thank you so much for the heads up. Will fix it ASAP.

And thank you very very much, I really hope you continue to use the app and please do let me know if there's anything I can do to help make the experience much better :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Do you support a feature like importing data from jsonresume.org. One nice thing about jsonresume is the json data is hosted in gist and once I append it to jsonresume.org/registry[github handle], I can view my resume directly in browser.

<comment><AUTHOR> The structure of JSON I've designed is a bit better than JSON Resume as it has options to customize headings for the sections, this allows for multilingual resumes with no development effort necessary.

But I will definitely look into the option in which uploading a Gist or something would generate the resume as well, it shouldn't be that difficult.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I've encountered some bugs on Safari. When attempting to scroll through the categories on the left and right sides, the selected entries are not visible.

Screenshot: [https://ibb.co/SKxjMFf](https://ibb.co/SKxjMFf)

Tested on: Safari 13.1 / MacOS 10.15.4

It looks OK on Opera 67.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting... will try to replicate the same and get it fixed ASAP. Thank you so much for reporting the same :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Really love this, nice job!

Curious, do you have any interest in having the ability to import/export from the various cloud storage vendors (Dropbox, GDrive, possibly even Github Gist), or do you feel like it would go against the offline/"no servers" theme of the app?

<comment><AUTHOR> It kinda touches on the border of not being offline, I don't know. A user would be able to just as easily upload the JSON to their respective Cloud Storage Provider, it would be a pain to support all of the major ones since there are so many.

Maybe when there's a clear need of one or more cloud services, this could be explored?

<comment><USER17> Right, I was thinking the same thing, that you can easily just upload the file. The reason I thought of it is I showed this to my wife (who absolutely loves this btw!) and she immediately seemed confused when I explained the need to export the file. I've since convinced her but I wonder if this will not be obvious to those without a techie showing them?

Anyways if you are interested in adding this feel free to give me a ping I'd be happy to help! daniels.bytes at the google (daniel-bytes on Github). Again amazing job on this! <3

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is a very nice resume builder. I like the aesthetics and will port my current LaTeX CV over to this next time I am on job search. Would be awesome if you could add "export as HTML" functionality so it can be hosted on webpages too.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been getting that feature request a lot, and if you are aware of any libraries that would print out minified HTML+CSS of a certain div/section, please do let me know. That's what I'm struggling with here since the whole thing is in React + Tailwind CSS, very connected to the build process.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Nice UI! A few comments:

\- It would be nice to be able to see a preview of the template in full size

\- How do you export the résumé at the end?

\- I couldn't find the code. Where is it?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much :)

I'll definitely look into what can be done about those previews. Right now, it's not that hard to just load the dummy data (from the Actions Tab) and cycle through the templates, but I'll look into making the process easier.

As for the export options, as defined in the Actions Tab, you can print the resume at any time and the browser has options to print as PDF. Also, you can export the data as JSON and import it back again, keeping it completely portable.

The GitHub Repository can be found here: [https://github.com/AmruthPillai/Reactive- Resume](https://github.com/AmruthPillai/Reactive-Resume)

There is an About Tab as well which has the link to the repository from within the app :)

<comment><USER19> Oh, I didn't see the action time the first time. Maybe that should be more easily accessible/visible.

The dummy data loading, that's exactly what I was looking for when I suggested adding a bigger template preview.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Really good project. The only issue that I am facing is entire resume is messed up while printing it from Firefox.

Everything else is perfect!

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, yeah. I just noticed that. I guess that's an issue with Firefox's parsing of print CSS. Really unfortunate for them to not adhere to so many print CSS rules, considering Mozilla is pretty good when it comes to adopting new web technologies.

Sadly, I can't suggest any fix except using Safari or Chrome for now. I will look into what can be done to fix the issues regarding Firefox soon. Thank you for bringing this to my attention :)

<comment><USER21> At my work we've run into a similar issue with inconsistencies with print styles. To solve this we used a separate server with a library to convert the doc to a pdf, then gave that file to the user for printing. This may be overkill for this use case but it's an option to look at.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Very nice other than the picture. I suppose one could upload their family crest or something.

</comment><comment><USER22> IN mainland China, pictures are used to filter out the pretty people.

</comment><comment><USER23> This is amazing, thanks for making this for free.

</comment><comment><USER24> This is a really neat project! Good job.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Love the app and approach to privacy.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Not that I use it, but do really like this initiative to make resumes machine readable:

[https://jsonresume.org/](https://jsonresume.org/)

<comment><AUTHOR> I did check out JSON resume, a bit later after I made this, but the schema that I'm using it's too far fetched from what JSON Resume uses, and with a few tweaks, like adding an ID field, or adding heading tags (so that resume sections headings can be in any language of the user's choice). The JSON I've made is a bit more flexible that way, specific to the application. Maybe this could be the new standard? (hehe)

<comment><USER26> Yeah I really like this better. JSON is terrible to write manually.

Still I respect their effort to try. Machines are already parsing resumes for keywords anyway.</comment></comment></comment>


Google Acquires Seven Robot Companies, Wants Big Role in Robotics - <AUTHOR> http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/google-acquisition-seven-robotics-companies <comment><USER2> One of the acquisitions (SCHAFT, Inc.) is a competitor in the current DARPA Robotics Challenge, and out of all of the teams that have shown off progress videos, SCHAFT has shown the greatest level of competence in handling the tasks as they're going to be structured at the Trials in Homestead in a few weeks. Very similar to what they did with the top team from the last DARPA Grand Challenge (self-driving cars).

<comment><USER3> There is a great documentary talking to the guys who engineered the robot. Interesting story they are a couple of research students at University of Tokyo wanting to develop the robot for the DARPA Robotics Challenge, but there is a rule at the University that no military funded projects are allowed. So these guys are doing it independently, pretty awesome guys I wish them the best. In the documentary[1], you can see how SCHAFT robot works in detail.

[1] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKiXM7bUypk&t=25m0s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKiXM7bUypk&t=25m0s)

<comment><USER2> The work they've done is definitely impressive. Really looking forward to seeing the robot do its stuff in person down in Homestead.

Though Atlas is definitely nothing to sneeze at. I've become pretty fond of it since the summer :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> From my roots in a Michigan automotive city, the first thing this makes me think about is the massive amount of jobs this will eliminate if successful. We will need drastic changes in social policy to make up for it, and I have absolutely no faith in the government and voters to make it happen. I find the idea of replacing millions of labor and service jobs with cheap robotics before the world is ready to accept the consequences terrifying.

<comment><USER5> If a job is so simple, repetitive and brainless that it can be automated, it's in humanity's best interest that it gets automated, and people are freed to do something more useful. Yes, this will suck if you're 50 years old and get laid off the assembly line, but we've been automating jobs out of existence for a few centuries now and the overall consequences have not been particularly terrifying.

<comment><USER6> There is not enough history to give us the context for what this means.

People like to bring out truisms of horse and buggy drivers, but we're getting to the point where we're thinking of automating entire classes of jobs out of existence rapidly, not just specific tradesmen one at a time. Where in the past manual labor has been automated, it has tended to happen slowly, increasing efficiencies in niches and eliminating some tasks completely. This has freed people to engage in - by and large - other sorts of manual labor, those which were not so trivially automated.

What happens when the very notion of "manual labor" is itself abolished? There's no historical precedent for that.

Automation will likely not eliminate all manual labor in our lifetimes, but I imagine it will eliminate enough of it to break capitalism for large portions of the population. We need to start considering what that means sooner, rather than later.

<comment><USER7> Well stated. A phrase that comes to mind is that "Over time, a quantitate change becomes a qualitative change."

Take Moore's law for example. The doubling of transistors/halving of their expense first allowed more efficient computation in the original manner, but now that qualitative change has started to alter the very nature of computation- omnipresent computation in all man made devices doesn't mean our spreadsheets run faster, but rather humanity exchanges information and communicates in an entirely different manner than it did a generation ago.

Likewise, I believe we'll see the gradual automation of 'useless' jobs change from an event we can work around by retraining or switching careers to an obsolescence of the vast majority of human labor. There are some nagging statistics about unemployed engineers that I believe back my assumption, especially considering that engineering positions should be the new careers people retrain to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm surprised I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but at I/O during his Q&A Larry Page talked a fair bit about how he wants to see manufacturing get more streamlined, Maybe this could be related?

> _Smartphones, Page said, are "relatively expensive," with the raw material > costs — glass and silicon — is "probably like $1, or something like that. I > think glass is 50 cents a pound. Phones don't weigh very much. So I think > when I see people in industry making things, I ask this question, how far > are you off the raw materials costs. So as an engineer, trying to go to > first principles, what is the real issue? What's the real issue around our > power grids, or around manufacturing? I think a lot of people don't ask > those questions, and because of that, we don't make the progress we need to. > If you're going to make a smartphone for a dollar, that's almost impossible > to do. But if you took a fifty-year view, you'd probably make the > investments you need to, and you'd probably even figure out how to make > money. So, I encourage non-incremental thinking."_

[http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2013/05/15/google-c...](http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2013/05/15/google- ceo-page-address-developer-conference-takes-qa/) (The first transcript I could find)

<comment><USER9> I manufacture things out of steel. Steel costs 50 cents a pound for sheet and $2 a pound for welding wire. The freight to ship it to my distributors is another 50 cents a pound, and the advertising and marketing cost is about $2 a pound.

So ultimately I agree with Page. The cost of manufacturing anything goes on along a 1/x curve over time, and approaches the raw material cost. Its the other costs that don't do that, like engineering talent, marketing spends, warehousing, shipping.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Recently google also created a company to develop software for the construction industry, which they claim will reduce 30%-50% of the cost of construction[1].

The most likely scenario for that to happen is through pre-fabricated construction, meaning most of the construction happens in a factory. This fits perfectly well with robotics.

[1][http://www.construction-manager.co.uk/news/googles-cloud- bas...](http://www.construction-manager.co.uk/news/googles-cloud-based-genie- set-torpedo-bim/)

<comment><USER11> I can imagine a scenario, they would be like 3D printers for houses. You provide the materials (think big legos), and the robots (X-copters may be) assemble everything.

<comment><USER12> Anyone else remember the video of the Chinese prefab 30-story hotel that went up in like 30 days?

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYFef_HRxRQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYFef_HRxRQ)

<comment><USER13> Reminds me of this [http://gizmodo.com/5304233/entire-new-13+story-building- tips...](http://gizmodo.com/5304233/entire-new-13+story-building-tips-over-in- shanghai/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> NYT piece by John Markoff: [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/technology/google-puts- mon...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/technology/google-puts-money-on- robots-using-the-man-behind-android.html)

<comment><USER15> Google's not an ad company, they're an AI company. Ads just support them as they develop the tech. Articles like this keeps reinforcing that world view for me.

<comment><USER16> Nope, Google is an Ad company, they sell ads via tech, but you take away the ads, and Google can't afford to do tech.

Almost every product and service they do is to sell ads either directly or indirectly. Even Google Apps is about selling ads. How? Well, if small businesses don't have decent tech infrastructure, they aren't likely going to be using AdWords as much are they and they'll use traditional ads like Yellow Pages.

In case you aren't aware, Yellow Page ads and newspaper ads charge hundreds or thousands of dollars per month for minimal effective exposure. Google ads can be much more effective, but good luck selling toe people who can't even get decent email accounts setup for their business. Yeah, $5/user/month is decent money when you have 50+ employees on the system, but that's peanuts compared to the $5,000-10,000+ a month that company is likely paying in advertising.

Google desperately wants those kinds of accounts and whether they are building a browser, an operating system, an email service, a social network, or a self driving car, it's always going to come back to selling advertising to businesses because that is worth far more than just about anything else Google can do to make money.

Google, like Microsoft and Apple completely understands where they make their money and what business they are in, even if they do a lot of things to make techies happy.

It's the ads. Always the ads.

<comment><USER17> We know where the revenue comes from. The point is that google's _tech_ is, in many important ways, AI.

It's like McDonalds. A hamburger company? Not really. It makes a lot more sense to consider them a real estate company. Hamburgers are just the way they create value for the real estate. This is not just my whacked interpretation, but is something the CEO said in an interview awhile ago, and a perspective taught in many MBA programs.

Yes, companies make money from their revenue. It is often far more interesting and useful to look at how they create the value that generates that revenue. In the case of Google, Larry Page has been quite clear about his ambitions for Google, and selling ads is not the end of that ambition, it is merely the current income source.

<comment><USER18> My grandfather was responsible for sourcing all of the real estate for Jewel- Osco's expansion in Northern Illinois from the early 70's until the mid 90's. He said the same thing: McDonalds is a real estate company that happens to sell burgers.

<comment><USER19> I always heard it as McDonalds is a soda company that happens to sell burgers. They break even on the food but bank 90%+ profits on the beverages. The real estate angle makes sense on a longer timeline.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Hypothesis? The web market is becoming more saturated and lower margin. They're fishing around for something sufficiently hard (capital intensive to keep agile players out) that will have bigger long term payoffs.

</comment><comment><USER21> You've got to hand it to Google: They have vision.

<comment><USER22> Don't mistake money + engineers for vision!

<comment><USER23> You're saying they're no different than Oracle?

<comment><USER22> How are they different? They both do shitty things.

<comment><USER23> Who doesn't?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Well this explains why I was contacted twice. My expertise is in robotics and each time I asked them why they were interested, since I wasn't aware of much robotics work at Google (other than self-driving cars.) First time I asked the recruiter to email me so I could contact him at a more appropriate time -- I was at work -- and never hard from him. Second time was by email, and I responded but never got a reply. Oh well. I just don't understand why they would get my hopes up and then never respond -- anyone know how Google recruiters work?

<comment><USER25> nah. you will learn that the recruiters that google uses barely know your name. let alone your background.

<comment><USER24> Figured it was something like that. Was surprised to be contacted out of the blue, but I figured if I ever really wanted to work there I'd probably have to be the one doing the contacting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> It looks to me that Google is desperately trying to replace their ad business with something new.

<comment><USER27> ... or they just have vision, like companies of old times used to (HP, Xerox, IBM).

IBM has done basic science research like few companies ever have and nobody can claim they're planning to replace their current lines of business with electron microscopes or Watsons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> We might have Motorola phone that's "Make in USA by GoogleBot" soon. Google probably can overtake Foxconn and it can scale up/out to build $90, $60, $40 Android phone.

<comment><USER29> Foxconn already has 20k robots in production roles [http://www.pcworld.com/article/2043026/foxconn-to-speed- up-r...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2043026/foxconn-to-speed-up-robot- army-deployment-20000-robots-already-in-its-factories.html)

Google is actually not in the lead (yet).

<comment><USER30> I would assume that Google is aiming to increase the quality of robots, not just the quantity.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Google has become self-aware and is quietly assembling its robot army.

<comment><USER32> That whole "Larry Page disappearing for a month" thing was probably when they replaced him with a real Android to take control of the company. Now that I think about it, his latest speech at Google I/O - when he "returned" \- sounded pretty robotic, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Ok...that's cool. Somehow I think this will become something serious and plausible vs. the cyber Monday drone package stunt.

<comment><USER34> _this will become something serious_

I agree. It seems to me that robots have the potential to have a greater impact than the internet, social, mobile. And that's not to diminish the profound change those innovations have brought about.

It just seems that the ability to act in the physical world will bring incredible, profound changes.

<comment><USER35> This is possible.

Robots will certainly bring huge change some day. The problem is that it is definitely going to come before our social structures are ready for it. There's going to be a real hard time adapting to the fact that a very large number of jobs will no longer requires humans to do them.

<comment><USER36> Robots will also be pretty useful to quell any and all unrest, so I'm sure it'll all balance out..

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Although this is somewhat unrelated, I have to say: my main concern upon seeing that Bot & Dolly / Autofuss were part of this list is what will happen to Front ([http://www.autofuss.com/news](http://www.autofuss.com/news)). I find myself there nearly every day for coffee, along with a batch of other familiar hacker faces.

I'm excited for the parent companies, and mostly find it funny that an acquisition may affect something I would usually think of as totally unrelated.

</comment><comment><USER38> I love the speed at which they're pushing technology forward, but I'm also pretty worried that they're taking the lead in any industry that'll be a game changer in the future. They're getting seriously far ahead of everyone else. Even if they shut down everything for a single day these days, chaos would ensue. I wouldn't want society to be even more dependent on a single company..

</comment><comment><USER39> Google knows Android phones aren't really robots, right? ;)

</comment><comment><USER40> I had something for this. Something about killing Miles Dyson.

</comment><comment><USER41> Yes, I can see that: droids on the streets and our homes conducting surveillance for Google and NSA :)

</comment><comment><USER42> So the NSA problem is already solved?

<comment><USER43> How is NSA's large-scale spying on the world, that's been going on in full scale since the 1950s, Google's problem?

<comment><USER42> They could engineer their products in such a way that they don't collect all this data and don't transfer it to servers in the USA. They could also stop cooperating with the NSA, they could also respect privacy of their users, etc.

Google has a lot of things to do. Robots would not be high on my list.

<comment><USER43> > don't collect all this data

So you don't want GMail to actually collect your email?

> stop cooperating with the NSA

Ah, you mean they should start breaking the US law?

<comment><USER42> I don't want my Mail to be stored in the USA, nicely unencrypted for the NSA.

Sure not.

Since GMail has this NSA problem, I'm not using it.

> Ah, you mean they should start breaking the US law?

Which law? The law the NSA is bending every day?

Google can do a lot to support security and privacy of foreign user's data. They don't do anything. Actually they do everything to undermine it and to make it easy for the NSA to access this data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Enough of the PR. Get back to me when you've got a robot I can use instead of concept videos. This goes for drones, self-driving cars, and other robots.</comment>


Ask HN: The best Linux laptop - <AUTHOR> I've been thinking since quite a while to replace my current laptop. It's a 2011 VAIO which I modified to run Ubuntu 14.04 . But, it seems to be giving up on me since a few days, and with the thanksgiving discounts going, I might actually get myself one :P
So, what is the best laptop that runs Linux natively, or after modifying. Plus, try to make it a little more affordable($200 - $850).
P.S. Nobody mention the Mac, it's a beauty in itself, and I won't be able to replace OS X by Linux emotionally. <comment><USER4> Stick with thinkpads and checkout ThinkWiki[1] to make sure that there are no oddities you are not willing to work through on the model you want to buy.

The Dell XPS Developer Edition[2] comes with Linux installed, and has supported binary drivers from Dell. Just a little outside your price range.

[1]: [http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki](http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/ThinkWiki) [2]: [http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd](http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd)

<comment><USER5> While I love my X230 running Fedora, I hear really bad things about the newer X line-up, mainly about the touchpad which is apparently unusable (even under Windows), but also that they've _reduced_ the max RAM from 16GB (X230) to 8GB. Maybe the lesson in that is to buy a second hand X230 ...

<comment><USER6> This is a good summary of the problems with the x240.

[http://senk9.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/lenovox220/](http://senk9.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/lenovox220/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm not sure why you're ruling out Mac laptops, perhaps you think they're too expensive? I was a long time Thinkpad user but converted to a MacBook Air a few years ago and haven't looked back at all since. You can run Linux in a VM perfectly, and OSX itself has some nice Unix features.

Right now you can get a 13" MacBook Air with good specs for $800: [http://www.bestbuy.com/site/apple-macbook-air-latest- model-1...](http://www.bestbuy.com/site/apple-macbook-air-latest- model-13-3-display-intel-core-i5-4gb-memory-128gb-flash- storage/2712009.p?acampID=0&ref=8575135&loc=0&id=1219076158205&skuId=2712009) IMHO this is the way to go. No $800 Windows laptop is going to come close to the build quality of the MacBook Air.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, I haven't been including a Mac here because most of us already know how cool they are. I mean, my dad has one, and I know a VMWARE machine running Ubuntu is great, but then it feels kinda like a dis-respect to OS X(and sj). Moreover, most of the good Mac's start from over my price range(atleast they do in India, they do).

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've always gone thinkpad for Linux and never really been let down.

I got an M$ Surface Pro 3 last month (don't laugh) but its actually first rate, hardware wise.

Fedora doesn't quite work perfectly yet but its pretty close.

High DPI touch screens rock!

<comment><USER9> Can't take seriously anyone that types "M$". I know this kind of juvenile potshots are rampant in the Linux community, but it is time to grow up.

<comment><USER10> GP was _complimenting_ M$. As for "growing up", it seems that the younger fanbois are more sensitive to a fairly innocuous shorthand than those of us who remember computing in the '90s.

<comment><USER11> I think this is probably because hackers in younger generations never experienced the beast that was Microsoft in the 90s and have seen the progression of MS as one from "company that makes boring and/or bad OS" to the embrace of FOSS that's been happening recently.

I'm personally super interested in tech and hacking history, so I've read all the war stories, the pleas on FOSS homepages, the rants on sites like jwz's, books like Microserfs, etc. But even the most talented hackers who are 16-24 right now probably see Microsoft as "the Xbox company."

<comment><USER12> Not true - 21 here, was only born in 1993. I'm aware of the disputes that have happened over time, especially arguments with Netscape / Jobs / etc. Microsoft has a pretty interesting and rich history, and I was extremely surprised about the recent open source announcements. I read somewhere they actually have an open source branch, it's just not widely talked about, mainly because Windows overshadows it.

<comment><USER11> I'm not trying to make an ultimatum - there will definitely be exceptions, as I pointed out myself. But if you ask around, most people in that demographic won't know about the story of MS, won't have seen stuff like the Gates deposition video, etc. The most you'll get is a vague notion of Microsoft being called evil by greybeards.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> EDIT: oops. I just noticed your price range. The X1 Carbon doesn't fit with that.

I would strongly recommend the last generation Lenovo X1 Carbon, but I would strongly recommend _against_ the current X1 Carbon for a few reasons:

\- They merged the trackpoint's buttons into the trackpad's and now it's very difficult find the middle chord or to select text using the trackpoint.

\- They merged the function keys with the utility keys (e.g. volume control) into a single, dynamic row, so closing a window (Alt-F4) often requires you to toggle from utility to function key. If this sounds confusing and useless, it is.

\- Worst, because of the doubled-up row (fn, utility), Esc and ~ wound up overlaid. So they moved the ~ next to the LOWER RIGHT Alt key. I hit Esc every time I try to reference my home directory...

Other than that, it's a lovely laptop.

Oh and don't get a HighDPI display unless you want to deal with funky application layout issues...

<comment><USER14> agreed, i have a last-gen carbon as my work laptop, and it's wonderful. fairly crappy battery life, but the rest works beautifully and is very pleasant both to carry around and to use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Lenovo Thinkpads have always made for good Linux machines, and even now nothing seems like it will ever beat old Thinkpad keyboards. New Thinkpads are still good but I've never been a big fan of the chiclet keyboards and the resolutions sometimes seem to be worse than in the past.

Of course, there is always: [https://system76.com](https://system76.com)

but I've yet to give any of their gear a spin.

<comment><USER16> I bought my SO a Gazelle Pro from System76 two years ago. We've been pleased enough with it that I just bought one myself (with updated specs, of course) instead of a new desktop.

Ubuntu out of the box, all hardware is supported, good performance and battery life, a matte-screen option, etc.

In another couple of years, they will likely be my first choice again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Dell Latitude's work well. I'm currently on an E6320 with Xubuntu 14.04. I've removed the DVD drive and replaced it with a 2nd SSD so I have dual SSD's in a 13" laptop. Everything works perfectly including the docking bay which allows me to plug in a 27" monitor at 2560x1440 via Display Port. Multi monitor switching works better than Windows 8.1 for me since it's hot swap and the windows retain sensible sizes for when the larger display is plugged back in (they all instantly resize in Windows).

The new E7440 is very nice and can be had for great prices on eBay. I tried one of these with the Full HD IPS screen. Unfortunately I couldn't get HiDPI to work to my satisfaction (even with latest Gnome and KDE). Having said that, I couldn't get Windows 8.1 to work to my satisfaction either.

</comment><comment><USER18> A lot of people haven't heard of them, but Clevo is a major laptop OEM that makes both rock-solid business platforms and gaming platforms. Sager, System76, FalconNW, and most other boutique laptop builders use rebadged/modified Clevo systems. Clevo doesn't sell direct to customers, but there are plenty of sites where you can buy customized or barebones systems for very reasonable prices.

This summer I bought a W670SZQ from AVADirect, with an i5 and SSD it was just under $900. For a full size 17" laptop the weight is very reasonable, and it's a great system that Xubuntu and Mint worked fine on with zero tweaking.

</comment><comment><USER19> HP EliteBook Folio 1040, 14" 1920x1080 screen:

Pros: Thinner (1.59 cm vs 2.06 cm) and lighter (1.49 kg vs 1.58 kg) than ThinkPad T440s. Everything in Ubuntu works.

Cons: The keys are flat (like in Macs), I'd prefer some contour like in ThinkPads. Touchpad has no mouse buttons: 2-finger tap on the touchpad (for right-click) is quite easy, but 3-finger taps (for middle-click) is a little tricky. Also selecting text by pressing on the pressure-sensitive touchpad while moving the cursor is a little tricky. Personally, I always use external mouse, so I don't care.

</comment><comment><USER20> I bought an X230 Thinkpad a year ago, and I'm quite pleased with it.

I wanted an SSD, but I found it was cheaper to select the cheapest hard drive they had and then buy an SSD from Newegg than to get the SSD from Lenovo. Replacing the drive was quite easy, not like a tablet or cell phone. It goes without saying, but you should do the same for RAM.

A month or so after I bought it, the fan stopped working. Their customer service was quite good. They sent me a box so I could return my laptop, and they fixed the fan and shipped it back at no cost to me.

<comment><USER5> The X230 takes an mSATA drive (that's in addition to the regular hard drive). I fitted one in mine. It's somewhat fiddly to install because you have to completely remove the keyboard, but possible with basic tools and a bit of patience. Now I have:

        NAME                                       MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE
        sda                                          8:0    0 298.1G  0 disk
        ├─sda1                                       8:1    0   500M  0 part
        └─sda2                                       8:2    0 297.6G  0 part
        [...]
        sdb                                          8:16   0 119.2G  0 disk
        └─sdb1                                       8:17   0 119.2G  0 part

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> So you don't say what you consider best. Do you need a discrete GPU and a huge screen? Do you want a lightweight ultraportable with great battery life?

Also after christmas sales are often good for tech, if you can wait. You can often get refurbs from returns for great prices.

I'm on a thinkpad T530. added an aftermarket SSD and 16 gb of ram (You need a W system to get 32GB, but it's possible). Note, get an intel wifi card that supports 2.5 and 5.0 channels. a T540 is a substantially better machine, both with haswell getting better power managment, and the ability to hotswap batteries because of a smaller internal battery.

I also have an hp chromebook 14 running crouton lubuntu 14.04 I got for $236 on woot. It's fine as a secondary laptop, and seems to have good battery life. I do occasionally miss having a meta key. I run xfce, not unity, and I'd recommend a light-weight DE. It is notably slower compiling (things like YouCompleteMe's C++ code for vim).

The other thing to consider is a cheap foreign made computer, like Sager or Clevo. They are bare bones systems, but that's often better for linux support. I'd also look at resources from reddit's r/SuggestALaptop like [http://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/2448oy/guide...](http://www.reddit.com/r/SuggestALaptop/comments/2448oy/guide_1400_are_you_looking_for_a_programming/)

</comment><comment><USER22> I'm a fan of really cheap chromebooks.

The Toshiba CB35 that recently came out is my current laptop. Don't buy that right now, though. We don't have the coreboot situation worked out, although we're close. Currently hating myself by using crouton every day... But its still a great machine for the price.

For me, and probably you too, nothing matters more than display quality, keyboard quality, and battery life (in that order.) I do most everything remotely, so power isn't even a part of the question.

</comment><comment><USER23> I would suggest the 2014 Holiday Giving Guide by FSF [0].

[https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/2014/](https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/2014/)

</comment><comment><USER24> Lenovo Thinkpad T410S here. The only thing I've done to it in the 4 years I've had it is to upgrade the 500gig hard drive to 2 TB. And when I bought it I specified the larger battery rather than the standard one. It has an included DVD drive which is surprisingly often used.

I have kept it as a Linux-Win7 dual-boot, but Windows is restricted to 50 gig and I'd boot this maybe 4-5 times a year, while the other 1950 gig is in use with Linux.

</comment><comment><USER25> I have a Lenovo Yoga 2 and really like it. nice form factor, 3200x1800 screen (great DPI on a 12" screen), pretty good battery life, and the folding screen lets me use a nice usb mechanical keyboard while on the go.

The wifi drivers are the only area that doesn't have perfect linux support, but the 3.18 kernel is a drastic improvement, and more are coming.

Also, the price is right, mine was only $1000.

</comment><comment><USER26> I own a Lenovo Thinkpad S540 and I just bought my second yesterday in the black Friday deals. For me it's been the perfect Linux Laptop, practically everything works straight out of the box, good performance and I use it for home and professional programming. It's slim and light, I've used it for travelling between Europe and the US and it's been fine on the move (definitely not as petite as other ultrabooks though).

The specs are below:

\- Intel Core i7-4510U Processor \- 15.6" FHD (1920x1080) Anti-glare Display Black \- AMD Radeon HD 8670M Graphics 2GB \- 16GB RAM \- Keyboard Backlit - <USER2> English \- 256GB Solid State Drive Serial ATA3 OPAL2.0

I managed to get it for just over $1000 dollars yesterday so I know it's a little out of your price range but I find the keyboard solid, screen is pretty good and I don't notice any performance issues. (I mainly do Java development and that can be resource intensive).

Perhaps you could pick one up on ebay even cheaper, happy to answer any other questions you've got about it!

</comment><comment><USER27> I just ordered a Thinkpad T540p for $649 (plus tax, no s/h) from the Lenovo site. "Web list price" is $1,413.00. I don't know how long the deal will last. Obviously, I have not tried to run linux on it, but I don't expect problems.

Downsides: It is a heavier machine at 5.5lbs. Battery life is good but not great. The display is decent resolution but not great.

[http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t540p...](http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t540p/)

Make sure you pick the best deal. :-)

Processor: 4th Generation Intel Core i5-4300M Processor( 2.60GHz 1600MHz 3MB)

Operating system: Windows 7 Professional 64

Display: 15.6" FHD AntiGlare 1920x1080

Graphics: Intel HD Graphics 4600

Memory: 8.0GB PC3-12800 DDR3L SDRAM 1600 MHz

Hard Drive: 500GB 7200 rpm

Optical Drive: Multi Recorder

Network Card: Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260

Bluetooth: Bluetooth Version 4.0

Warranty: Three year

Pointing device: Clickpad

Battery: 6 Cell Lithium-Cylindrical

<comment><USER28> > I don't know how long the deal will last.

Forever, really. Lenovo site _always_ has "deals" like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Agreed on Thinkpads.

I just picked up two oldies (core2 duo) for less than $100 apiece on ebay. No hard drives, but I had some laying about. Although the tech is old, the machines are in amazing shape (they are so well built). They do everything I need with full Linux installs for less than the price of a chromebook.

</comment><comment><USER30> Intel-powered Chromebooks are great for running Linux and you can get them for $150-$300

The best part is you don't have to run it inside ChromeOS, you can simply remove ChromeOS, enable the legacy boot loader, and use a regular old Ubuntu USB installer.

Of course, the models with more RAM are ideal, as well as being able to upgrade the M.2 SSD, but even a 2GB RAM/16GB SSD model will run pretty good, especially if most of your work is remote or on the cloud. Ubuntu 14.04 takes up about 7GB of storage.

I love older Thinkpads but these are cheaper, slimmer, and have more battery life.

<comment><USER31> After going through several Linux laptops over the past decade, including a couple of Thinkpads, I agree. My current Chromebook running Ubuntu is by far my favorite.

The whole setup comes in under $300: buy a certified refurbished Acer C720 from Acer with 4GB RAM and 16GB SSD ([http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L87JC80](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L87JC80)) and, separately, a 128GB MyDigitalSSD ([http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EZ2E8NO](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EZ2E8NO)). Replace the SSD and install this custom-made Ubuntu distro that includes all of the fixes for the C720: [https://www.distroshare.com/distros/get/12/](https://www.distroshare.com/distros/get/12/). And that's it!

<comment><USER32> Do you really feel like 4GB of RAM is enough? And do you happen to know if there are any Chromebooks that have upgradeable RAM? What kind of development do you primarily do on your Chromebook? I've been thinking about switching to a Chromebook, but I don't know if it's right for me just yet.

<comment><USER30> >> Do you really feel like 4GB of RAM is enough?

It depends on what you're doing. But there's a whole world out there of people being very productive on 4GB MacBook Airs, and Ubuntu uses far less memory than OS X.

<comment><USER31> Yeah, it's enough for me. It's my primary development machine by choice, and it's enough to do anything I need at a terminal (running emacs, developing and testing rails servers, docker builds, etc.) while keeping Chrome open with a few dozen apps including a few gmail and chat windows open.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> The ThinkPad series (T400s, X1 Carbon) has the best Linux support; kernel developers often use them. But they're out of your price range. Maybe you can find a deal on a T400, though?

<comment><USER34> I bought a used T430s earlier this year for GBP £350 (~USD 550).

I've kept the SSD as the boot drive and replaced the optical drive with a 1TB 'SSHD' (Seagate's SSD/HD hybrid).

I've also upgraded the RAM to 16GB.

Disk/RAM upgrades are possible to do 'free' if you already have parts. I 'downgraded' from an X1 Carbon just so I could do this, in fact!

Keyboard: Great for most dev work, though I preferred the layout on the X300 I had before.

Pointing device: I get on well with the Trackpoint and turn off the touchpad.

Screen: Okay. 1600x900 is acceptable as a resolution (though I'd like a high DPI screen next time I buy a laptop). It's readable enough but isn't beautiful.

Battery life: Awful. Probably not helped by the slightly used battery or the 16GB RAM. The second drive tends to be spun down (it's for occasionally-used / bulk storage only) and I tend not to be working the CPU hard. I just plug in.

Linux support: About as good as you'll get, which means that it almost works flawlessly, but will still annoy you.

I've tried Linux in a VM too. Still some problems there. I seem to remember I couldn't just suspend/resume Windows, because Linux would lose its network connection and not get it back without a reboot.

To be honest, I can run everything I want to in Windows, so it's actually easier to do dev work in an OS where everything on the laptop works, and just ssh to Linux elsewhere when necessary.

EDIT: Removed mentions of OS X and Macs!

<comment><USER35> I just got this model as well. It works perfectly with Debian Wheezy, as far as I can tell, so I don't see how Linux "will still annoy you".

Anyway, there is one thing that bugs me: If I press the bottom edge of the space bar (especially on the left side) it doesn't always register. Is this just my machine that's defective, or is it a problem with the design? Does it happen with yours as well?

(Usually when I'm typing I hit the spacebar more or less in its vertical center and it works fine, but if I lean back and rest the hand below the keyboard, this problem tends to occur.)

When it comes to the screen, the resolution is OK (holding off on high-DPI is probably better until software support improves!) but viewing angles, colors and black levels are pretty bad. That's apparently one of the things they fixed on the T440s (with an IPS display).

<comment><USER34> Yep the screen is awful for photos or having more than one person look at it. Or for watching video. Well, anything but staring directly at it in low light while reading text!

No problem with my spacebar. I suspect you have a dodgy keyboard. I haven't looked to see how the spacebar is held together in this model, but it might just be dirt so you may get away with pulling it off (don't say I told you to do that!) and putting it back, but, well, at least a replacement keyboard is cheap and easy to fit.

The 'will still annoy you' comment comes from my memory of stuff not quite working 100%, but I really can't remember what was up now - perhaps it was just when it was in a VM that there were problems. If there was something broken, though, it was probably wifi. That seems the most common problem I have with Linux on laptops these days.

Will give Debian Wheezy a try and see how it goes, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I am going to break OPs rule: anybody here has linux running on a macbook air? I really wanted to get a light laptop with a long battery and found no alternative as good as MBA

<comment><USER37> I do, running Ubuntu 14.04 on a 2013 model. It mostly works.

There was an issue with it waking up when the lid was closed that I fixed with a simple service that just runs "echo XHC1 > /proc/acpi/wakeup" at startup.

Also, the webcam isn't a USB webcam: it's a PCI device made by Broadcom that doesn't have any drivers. And the 128GB SSD is a bit small and 4GB RAM isn't enough, as I use VMs sometimes.

On the plus side, the hardware is really nice and the trackpad is great. Still, I might have to get something a little more high-powered for myself and give this to my wife :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Depending on what you intend to use Linux for, a fairly recent Chromebook (I use the Acer C720) plus Crouton may be ideal. That won't be the case if your main activity is Gimp/Inkscape/etc., but it definitely could be if you spend most of your time coding in vim. While I do like Inkscape, I've personally never fallen in love with the office-type Linux desktop apps, so using google equivalents is fine.

</comment><comment><USER38> Are you asking about the best laptop or the best laptop for Linux or what. Seems like any Intel laptop will work with Linux (if wrong state which don't would be useful from someone). Using Ubuntu 14.10 seems fine if you don't like their wanna be for touch screens etc style, Google 'classic menu' and '14 things I did after installing Ubuntu 14 etc.' There is also Linux Mate which you can install over Ubuntu 14.10 for traditional desktop. Also you can install Linux in a Virtual Box Machine if you are running windows something or other. Separate Video card would be nice but not necessary. Linux will recognize your multiple processors in you Multi-Processor CPU unlike Windows which in many cases comes from the store set to default of ONE! <\--outrageous.

</comment><comment><USER39> Consider a Think Penguin notebook [https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers- gnu-...](https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-linux-2)

</comment><comment><USER40> I've been running Ubuntu 14.04 on an ASUS i3-- a real bargain, and no headaches (other than a weird thing where the hardware switch for wireless is automatically disabled on reboot).

</comment><comment><USER41> The Gazelle from System 76 is $799. It comes with Ubuntu.

</comment><comment><USER42> What about the best laptop that's not tied to any particular OS? Also, is there something that's fanless and doesn't break the bank?

<comment><USER43> Unfortunately driver support for some proprietary hardware is not very well in Linux so asking for advice is senseful. The most common problem is WiFi problems. I do not have a problem with last 2 of my laptops but an older Dell laptop needed manual care for its WiFi.

<comment><USER42> Yes, and the same is true with other OSen. So it'd be nice to know some generally well supported laptops that aren't picky about the OS you want to run. I might want to run more than one OS...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Someone in class and I both have an Asus N56-series. He runs Fedora, I use Linux Mint. No problems.

</comment><comment><USER45> Also check out system76.com offerings. (I am not affiliated, just a happy customer.)

</comment><comment><USER46> Asus ZenBooks are good.

<comment><USER47> same here. I've bought this year i7 1.8GhZ four-core machine, 12GB RAM, 128GB SSD and installed ElementaryOS on it. It works like a charm - especially for someone who switched back from MacBook with OSX to Linux machine. The author mentioned that he won't be able to replace OSX by linux emotionally - <USER3> should check elementaryOS - some people think that it just a OSX rip-off (but it's not)

<comment><USER48> I'm very happy with Ubuntu 14.04 on my Asus UX31 laptop

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> one more nice to have is a backlit keyboard on the laptop. I find that it makes a world of difference as I try to hack away in the dark...

<comment><USER12> Agreed - the only thing I have had issues with in the dark is my screen will not go dark enough when I'm in a pitch black room. I use programs like dimscreen, but they often take a lot away from the image when the laptop screen is at its lowest darkness

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I recently went through a bit of a comparison exercise myself, after my Sony Vaio Z series packed in. I had a slightly higher budget than OP because I wanted something reasonably high-end, able to run several VMs for example, but nice and portable. So, in case anyone else finds it useful:

\- probably the most sensible choice would have been a fully specced-up Galago from System 76: 16GB ram, core i7, space for two (!) SSDs, etc etc. On the pure specs, it's the clear winner -- it's practically impossible to find an i7 in 13 inches with 16 gigs of RAM. And it's great to support a Linux-friendly company. One minor problem was that I do occasionally need Windows (for Powerpoint), but I guess I could have installed it. The real reason I didn't go for it (and I'm about to betray a character weakness here) is that I saw it in real life and... I thought it was too ugly. Didn't suit my vanity. And I couldn't get on with that weird screen hinge. Still, my mate Hansel wrote an excellent review of the Galago, check it out here: [http://aychedee.com/2014/01/04/galago-ultrapro- review/](http://aychedee.com/2014/01/04/galago-ultrapro-review/)

\- the other sane choice would have been a thinkpad. As this thread overwhelmingly proves, they have an excellent reputation, and should work well under Linux. My dad has one, and I can confirm that they feel really well built, and are nice and light. Only real tech problem is the X240 is limited to 8GB. That and the seriously weird touchpads, which depress down about 5mm with a big ker-chunk, they feel like they were designed for use by children on a button-bashing arcade machine to launch nukes or something. But I can imagine getting used to them. Also briefly considered getting an X230 off ebay, because 16GB, but screen resolution was seriously weak.

\- another option would have been a Dell. They have a good rep, and good linux support, but the XPS13 suffers from the same problem of the 8GB limit, and the XPS15 was too big -- a friend of mine tells me it feels a little heavy, and that the lid feels a bit feeble -- so the build quality isn't as good as the thinkpads. The 15 would be a good option for someone prepared to carry something a little heavier tho, 16 gigs and excellent resolution.

\- at this point I started casting around for other solutions, and in the end I did something completely irrational. I came across the Samsung Ativ Book 9 Plus, and despite its stupid name I kinda fell for it. So I've impulse-bought one on ebay for about $1000 (new). And this despite the fact that Ubuntu is absolutely not ready for HiDPI screens, and that all the info on getting Linux installed on them sound like it's a nightmare, and that it's just never going to work. But, heck, I feel like Linux on the Desktop is _meant_ to be hard, and not quite work. And it's SO SHINY! [http://www.mobiletechreview.com/notebooks/Samsung-ATIV- Book-...](http://www.mobiletechreview.com/notebooks/Samsung-ATIV- Book-9-Plus.htm)</comment>