Who killed videogames? - <AUTHOR> http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-ghost-story/ <comment><USER2> I used to play _way too many_ video games. I broke the habit by refusing to buy games that didn't fit a very particular set of criteria:

They have to be...

\- single-player,

\- story-based campaigns

\- with a target completion time under 30 hours

\- and a Metacritic score above 85%.

This way, I can play 5 to 10 games per calendar year without a dramatic dent on my social or professional lives. I've been doing this for the last 3 years and my annual gameplay time is probably somewhere around 100 hours.

Some tricks:

Convince yourself that all side quests are for losers without better things to do. That may or may not be true, but it's helpful to avoid spending way too much time on any particular game. Aim for the ending credits & then when you get there, stick the game back in its case and put it on the shelf. Don't leave it in your console.

Don't even try the multiplayer versus modes. Just don't do it. Pretend that menu option isn't even there. Those modes are intentionally addicting.

And if you really prefer multiplayer, or if you simply can't avoid that attractive menu option... then set an alarm before you start playing. Press snooze when it goes off, finish your round, and then STOP PLAYING. If the snooze alarm goes off, turn the console off mid-round.

Try to find great co-op games & schedule time with a friend to play them. This lets you overlap human-contact time & gaming time.

<comment><USER3> > Convince yourself that all side quests are for losers without better things > to do. That may or may not be true, but it's helpful to avoid spending way > too much time on any particular game. Aim for the ending credits

While I agree that side quests usually are waste, what is the purpose of your playing? Is it because it's fun or because you have to finish? One could argue that the main quest is also a form of side quest and only for losers without better things to do...

<comment><USER4> I think his point is that you'll still have fun playing the main story, but it'll take far less time away from you, and still leave you with the satisfaction of completion.

If you go for finishing side-quests, you may not feel satisfied until you've finished them all. That can take considerably longer and be considerably less worth-while than the main game. (e.g. saving princess and defeating nemesis vs. collect all 500 random blue hidden items. Both fun, one takes far less time, and is more "worthwhile".)

<comment><USER5> Fair point, although it depends on the game; I enjoyed the sidequests in Oblivion more than the main quest and would submit that most players would be really missing out if they didn't finish them.

Of course, that's quite a different thing to timesinks like "find all 400 hidden widgets" which can get pretty tedious...

<comment><USER6> Assassin's Creed II has some good examples of worthwhile and non-worthwhile side quests. I cannot imagine completing the game to one hundred percent, but half of that is activity which reveals more about the story (tombs, "truth" encodings), while the other half is just numbers (collecting feathers, weapons, and paintings, although I admit to having taken interest in the last one having been an art history minor).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have to wonder when this whole trend is going to come crashing to a halt. When, if ever, the social-gaming population will wake up one day and think, perhaps aloud, and perhaps at great volume, "What the _fuck_ am I doing with my life? _Why_ do I need more virtual corn patches?" And, perhaps, "You know what? I'm not accepting the Facebook invitation into little Mikey's mafia family. Fuck that noise. I'm out."

By this, what I really mean is: when someone finally gets sick of Farmville, is he going to move on to the next Farmville, or is he burned out on the genre for good? Seems like there should be a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" dynamic at work with players of these games. Which would mean that the genre is destined for oversaturation and burnout, and that there will be diminishing returns awaiting any marginal entrants into the field.

I'm sure the genre, as a whole, is still growing by leaps and bounds. But do we have any leading indicators about the playerbase? Such as their likelihood to be investing in more than one time-sinkey social game at a time? Or their likelihood to pick up another after quitting the first?

I'm not wishing for the demise of the genre, but rather, am hoping that it'll hit a plateau from which it will be forced to innovate, experiment, and evolve. Seems to me that the cold, reductionist design philosophy of addiction-by-the-numbers should eventually dig its own grave in the form of mass player burnout on games produced as such. Then again, that's never happened with casinos. So this may be woefully naive thinking on my part.

<comment><USER8> I had an experience similar to what you describe (waking up and thinking "What the _fuck_ am I doing with my life?"), but it predates these games.

I was in college (can't remember which year, probably my junior year) and my roommates and I were all hooked on Diablo II. So were our friends across the hall. We'd often play together as a group on the LAN, but we also enjoyed playing independently. We all played on headphones so as to not have the sounds of several simultaneous games clashing.

One afternoon, we were all playing simultaneously but independently. I decided to take a break, paused my game, removed my headphones, and stood up. Then I heard it: the sounds of rapid clicking coming from my roommates' mouses (and the mouses of the guys across the hall--we usually kept our doors open). I had decided to take a break right then because I had just leveled up, and that fact combined with the sound of the clicking gave me a moment of clarity: the whole game consisted of me clicking a mouse as fast as I could in order to make an arbitrary number (experience points) go up. Everything else is just embellishment. The fundamentals are: you click the mouse, the number goes up.

I felt like one of those lab rats or monkeys that has two buttons: one that delivers a serving of food, and another that stimulates its pleasure centers. They starve to death because they neglect the food button in favor of the pleasure button. Except I was worse, in a way: I wasn't getting a jolt to my pleasure centers, I was just watching a meaningless number get higher. Of course, I wasn't completely neglecting my well-being, either, but I was wasting a lot of time that could have been spent on more rewarding pursuits.

I uninstalled the game immediately and gave it away as fast as I could. I didn't give up video games, because not all games are such complete wastes of time, but ever since then I have set the bar very high for any game I play (similar to the post by snprbob86 about strict selection criteria). I'm especially watchful for signs that a game is just an exercise in "repeat simple task, increment arbitrary number."

<comment><USER9> So what games do you play now? Just wondering, not only because I've come to a similar realization, but because I'd like to know what passes the test for you now. I think I'd trust your judgement.

<comment><USER8> To be honest, snprbob86's criteria are a lot more robust than mine and probably work for more people, but since you asked, I'll share.

My initial policy was to look for old games that had been so successful that they were re-released in new bargain versions. For example, my senior year I bought a jewel-case pack of Fallout and Fallout II. Basically, my thought process was: If it's so good that they're still pressing new CDs, I'll give it a try. Of course, I still had to apply my "repeat simple action, increment arbitrary number" filter, because Diablo and Diablo II were released in a similar way.

I still generally only play older games. It makes it easier to tell the good from the bad (plenty of reviews) and it saves me money. EDIT: Another advantage of old games is that when you buy a stinker (and you will, no matter how picky you are, occasionally buy a game that turns out to be no fun at all), you don't feel the same pressure to finish the game anyway that you might feel if you had dropped $40+ on a brand new title.

After college I removed the Windows partition from my computer and stopped dual-booting, so ever since then I've only played games that I can run on Linux. I prefer games that actually have Linux versions, but I run plenty of stuff on dosbox and even some stuff on wine. I played a _lot_ of Neverwinter Nights: it has an amazing community that still produces new modules even today. I'm also a big fan of Descent (all three versions). For a long time, my main criteria was only to pick games that really resonated with my imagination (and, of course, apply my filter to avoid exercises in "incrementing the number"). For example, I'm a sucker for steampunk so I picked up Arcanum, and it was excellent. I couldn't get it to run on Wine, but I wanted to play it so badly that I set up Windows on VirtualBox so I could play it.

I like first-person shooters, and find that they're not as prone to the "incrementing" problem; ditto for strategy games. Story-driven games are generally immune to that problem, but can fall prey to a different problem: excessive linearity (i.e. you might as well just read a book). About four years ago I went on a kick where I re-played a bunch of old Sierra adventure games on ScummVM. I think that there are some indie developers out there now making similar games.

We had our first kid three and a half years ago, and as a result I've had to change my gaming habits yet again (work also got way busier at about the same time, so it's not just the kids). I now prefer games that I can play for short spurts. I was playing QuakeLive for a while, but got bored with it eventually (and all the trash talk didn't help). I re-discovered nethack (I still suck at it, but that doesn't make it any less fun), and you can't go wrong with minecraft. I played Steambirds on Android, and that was a lot of fun but didn't last long. Also on Android I've found a couple of pretty good games that remind me of "Incredible Machine:" "Clever Contraption" and "Electric Box."

EDIT: I forgot to mention Wii! There are a lot of Wii games that are just plain crap, but there are a few real gems. _Wii Sports Resort_ is simplistic but still lots of fun, and fits great with my "short spurts" approach. It's also something my wife and I can enjoy together with our eldest. The only really "serious" game I've enjoyed on the Wii was Red Steel II (don't play the first one--it was awful!).

<comment><USER10> There are still a few dozen of us who play Descent 3 online. Actually, my Descent clan runs a Minecraft server, too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Probably off topic, but hooey on that:

If you want to play an absolute gem of a game, go grab Cave Story. It's free, and it's "fun", in the most distilled form.

<http://www.cavestory.org/>

It's one of those games that makes you wish you could wipe your memory --- just to re-play it again for the first time.

<comment><USER12> The author of the original post also wrote a review of Cave Story. It's long and rambly and exasperated, more impressionistic than informative, but it's a good read:

<http://www.actionbutton.net/?p=416>

 _Why did Pixel make this game? Like, why the fuck? The amount of loving attention to detail that went into this game indicates that the man, beyond a shadow of a doubt, possesses the mental fortitude befitting a researcher in a facility in Antarctica, delving into the permafrost, seeking the Cure For All Cancers. Why did Pixel bother making a videogame, when God had given him this situational opportunity to Literally Save The World? At the very least, the man could have sought out the Ultimate Toothbrushing Solution — a three- second-a-day quick rinse that eliminates the need to brush your teeth, while also keeping them sparkling white. (It'd be like those antibacterial hand- wash-lotion things, only for your mouth.) Instead, he made a videogame._

<comment><USER13> I nearly lost my eyes trying to read that blog :-(

<comment><USER12> Clicking the "action button" at the top (the big orange one) cycles through a few different themes; if all else fails, Readable/Readability work OK.

<comment><USER13> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> We, myself most definitely included, are all part of this.

On this site we love (ohmygoddowloveit), AB Testing, metrics tracking and all that goes along with it.

"Games getting more addictive" is very similar to "We used Abingo and this is what got the most responses."

I'm not saying this is bad so much as it doesn't represent everything and that there is a point between pandering to people and providing a service.

<comment><USER15> Excellent observation. A/B testing has no implicit morality. Indeed, driven to its logical conclusion it could result in your business engaging in spam, fraud, or encouragement of addictive behavior.

A/B testing is best used as sandpaper, to round off sharp corners, if you just let evolution guide your product with a free hand you are just as likely to end up with a giraffe as with a black mamba.

<comment><USER16> Oooh I want to play that game! Somebody please make it:

Giraffes vs Mambas

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> A good Saturday read. The incentives developers face when designing free-to- play games do indeed lead to games that are no fun.

But I actually think many game genres are getting _less_ addictive. It used to be that distribution of games was so expensive that there was little money to be made without catering to the hardcore gamers (I use that loaded term to mean someone who is willing to spend huge amounts of time on a game)--so games often took forever to complete and were designed to be most fun if played in 5-hour chunks.

Now, with internet distribution and marketing, some indie game designer can design smaller games and sell them for $10. So there's a place in the market for smart games designed to be played in less time.

And, unlike the pusher-addict economics of social games, the low cost of distribution is win-win and not going away. Indeed, as it becomes easier and easier for a small team or single developer to make good games, this trend should only accelerate.

<comment><USER18> I imagine the reason why free-ish games tend toward the unfun si that "fun" is defined in a business model as a profit center. For them to be fun, you have to pay, and I'm guessing this is actually a specific goal in these companies. Any feature that is brought up to be introduced has all the fun elements methodically shunted into the pay-zone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The sad thing is, it's not even social games anymore.

TF2 and Heroes of Newerth both became free in order to sell more premium "can't wait" for it goods.

Valve even has job listings for economists and psychologists now.

<comment><USER20> In the case of TF2, this has really hurt my ability to enjoy the game.

Since they made it free and added a thousand new items, there are vastly more new (less skilled) players, many games are spammed in both text and voice chat with offers to trade, and every game is a circus act of ridiculous hats.

With the exception of private clan servers, there's really no way to make sure you're joining a game with focused and skillful players.

<comment><USER21> Totally agree. I also think that TF2 lost the simple rules and focus that made it so much fun. My theories on this:

* The hats break the usability of the game: characters used to have very easily distinguished silhouettes. Now it is harder to tell what is going on in the game.

* The hats visually and thematically damage a game that once had very strong art-direction.

* The variations in weapons makes the game harder for them to balance and harder for the player to find an optimal strategy.

* Allowing players to individualize their avatar encourages people to devalue the team aspects of the game.

It's still fun, but I want to play in _classic mode_.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This kind of thing is admirable in a machiavellian evil kind of way.

It is amazing to think of the thought & effort that goes into making a title as infuriatingly awful (yet unarguably profitable) as some of these ville/hotel/zoo grinding games.

I bet someone somewhere is laughing & twirling their moustache.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I am not sure if the comparison holds but this FEELS like how bankers created derivatives. Its warping something from the inside out just to get some greed fuel.

<comment><USER23> This could be the next generation of casino games.. the house always wins.

<comment><USER24> Not casino games.. CASINOS

2 limitation that casinos have right now is that they are only allowed to lure in people over the age of 21, and that it takes time and work to travel to one.

These "games" are trying to put a real-life, genuine casino in the pocket of every man, woman and child and get them hooked. Slot machine and roulette tables are being replaced by imaginary farms and petting zoos.

<comment><USER25> We also have thousands of years of social antibodies for gambling, but none for FarmVille. Nobody in my family would offer a nephew the opportunity to get into debt to a casino in return for a pink roulette wheel, but the FarmVille analog hasn't been e.g. the focus of Sunday sermons for a lifetime.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> And there I am still playing Quake because: \- achievements don't matter \- instant play \- a game is 10min \- its fun \- no experience points \- no DLC \- nothing to collect

Subscription brings you more maps.

Oh shall I mention, that Quake doesn't make enough money ?

<comment><USER27> I was saddened when Carmack mentioned at QuakeCon that there were no plans to give QuakeLive.com the love it so obviously needs. Being so skill-based (as opposed to loot based) though, it really does seem to lack the appeal other games have for many players. That's a shame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Last fun game I played was Shenmue II about 8 or 9 years ago. It had it all - story, gameplay, art direction, cinematics, soundtrack, emotion, everything, that is, except profitability. Thus, Sega cancelled the series and I haven't played a game as genuinely enjoyable since. It's sad to say, but some fun games just don't make good business games.

<comment><USER29> I feel the same way about Heavy Rain. No other PS3 game has brought me close to the feeling of playing that game.

<comment><USER28> Yea, I haven't played Heavy Rain, but I heard it resembles Shenmue in a lot of ways with the QTEs, branching story, and cinematics. Might have to save up for a PS3 now, especially since Shenmue III will probably never see the light of day.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I find games like this utterly vapid and without any appeal whatsoever. I wonder if there's a name for the condition in which you are psychologically immune to these games, for whatever reason. I'm thankful I have it.

<comment><USER31> I was cured of the desire to play these kind of games by playing the game Upgrade Complete, at <http://www.kongregate.com/games/ArmorGames/upgrade- complete>.

I played Upgrade Complete until the abrupt ending. I found I felt annoyed that the game was over, and asked myself why. I realized all the playing of the game I had just done was pointless number-increasing – I think conveying that message is the point of Upgrade Complete. That inspired me avoid games with too much grinding and not enough more interesting parts like puzzles or story, and to use cheats whenever possible to skip the grinding.

<comment><USER32> ArmorGames has actually sponsored a number of those Flash games (all actually developed by the same guy), making fun of the obsessive tropes of the browser- based Flash mini-game crowd. Which is kind of bold, since ArmorGames is entirely in the business of profiting off that market. c.f. Upgrade Complete (I and II), Elephant Quest, This Is The Only Level (I and II), Achievement Unlocked (I and II).

The really amusing bit to me is that not only are they bald-facedly mocking this addiction-oriented gameplay, they are simultaneously self-referentially some of the most fun games in that genre.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> This was a pretty good read, and I agree with much of what was written. However I can't help but think a macro piece of the puzzle has been left out: status.

WHY do people pay money for virtual goods? WHY do people assault friends with requests they know are annoying? WHY do people play games that aren't fun? The answer is status. From the outside looking in, we might think people spending real money within these games are crazy. But from the inside, there is a different game with different rules. And the players of theses game have accepted these rules. It may seem ridiculous to outsiders, but within the game there are sometimes millions of other players who create a culture of who and what is "good" or "bad". So just like in real life, "average" people are concerned with nothing more than accumulating crap and generating envy; being "good" at the game.

The model for any Facebook game is easy: Provide a platform where people are able to quantitatively measure their value versus other people. Provide a clear means to increase that value. Sell them the means, and do it for $1 at a time. For most people, that's easier than putting a new BMW in the driveway for your neighbors to oggle.

<comment><USER34> Perhaps _this_ is the nagging doubt I have about Facebook in general: with mainstream acceptance, it functions not as a platform for 'connecting' with one another, but instead as another vehicle of conformity and norms enforcement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I find Dwarf Fortress quite hard to get into, but smart friends are talking about it.

So how would one describe DF in this framework?

<comment><USER35> The creator of DF has spoken out against the evils of these games. I can't find the link though.

And yet: There is just so much depth in DF that if you can play it at all, there is always something interesting to do, build, explore... I've pulled all-nighters playing it, trying to build the next coolest thing. With each season the game throws new triumphs and failures at you. It's not a social game, but the dwarves are individualized to the point that you might start empathizing with them.

Disclaimer: I work for a social games company.

EDIT: This may have been what I was talking about (though it's not actually a statement by Tarn): [http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds- socia...](http://www.industrygamers.com/news/braid-creator-finds-social-game- development-evil/)

"Some kinds of games are very clearly made [to give something] – like Dwarf Fortress is definitely trying to give the players something and not exploit players. That's very obvious to me in the way that it's made. [Most of these social games are] the opposite of that," explained Blow. "It's trying to take the maximum amount while trying to give the minimum amount. So that's an ethics of game design question. To me it doesn't matter if people feel like they're having fun or feel like they want to play the game, because the designers know what they're doing."

<comment><USER16> Yeah, that's it. Thank you for explaining it that way.

It reminds me of how I used to like movies and film, until I started noticing that money was changing hands to put product placements in them. Nothing ruins a move for me like the characters stating a brand advertising slogan or drinking from containers strategically positioned to display the label. It's more than just feeling cheated about having paid for the ticked and ending up watching advertising. It's the knowledge that the producer/director wasn't making the movie to be the best it could be.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> As someone who balances a free to play social game on Facebook everyday I find this kind of generalization short sighted and demeaning.

The nuances of creating a social free to play game go far beyond this simplistic narrative. A compelling user experience that engages non-paying users and convinces some players to convert is WAY more challenging than most people understand. ESPECIALLY if you care about your community.

The tools you HAVE to use are based on metrics and data. But you don't sacrifice fun. In the end you are still selling fun. If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it...

In the end though... it isn't art, it's all just entertainment.

<comment><USER37> > If it isn't fun, people won't PLAY it...

The whole point of this article is that yes they do, and yes you can extract money from them anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> This is what makes a game like Starcraft 2 so great. Every player, regardless of time spent in the game, starts out with a level playing field. There is no incentive to play the next game except to get better.

So how does Blizzard extract more money from you? They balance the game, update it frequently, and then don't charge you. And they hope your experience was so great that next time a Blizzard game is released you will know that it's a high quality game that will be supported for years.

No gimmicks, no shortcuts, just gameplay.

<comment><USER39> > So how does Blizzard extract more money from you?

Because World of Warcraft.

<comment><USER40> Starcraft 2 and World of Warcraft are different games. This poster is referring to Starcraft 2, which does not charge a monthly fee.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> There are multiple awesome video games every year. This post seems to be describing Facebook games or one genre of games in a generalization of the entire industry. As an avid gamer and big fan of the industry this post's title/conclusion is appalling.

Also, it's quite easy to play video games and still have time to learn things and further your skills for your career. I'm a dad, a gamer, and a programmer, and I love it.

</comment><comment><USER42> These games are the embodiment of a generation raised on the idea that when the bell rings you change classes and at the end of thew week you get a gold star if you did all the things you were supposed to.

It puts them right back into a safe world where if the follow the rules they get rewarded.

</comment><comment><USER43> It's kind of gross how that market of games is growing. It's really quite terrible, but at the same time genius, at least in the metric of making money.

At the same time I don't think there is a need to worry about the gaming industry being overtaken with that dirt - indie games have really been keeping my hope up with video games as a creative outlet. Lots of really wonderful stuff and wonderful people behind the works - here are some nice sites for finding such games.

<http://indiegames.com/index.html> <http://gamejolt.com/>

</comment><comment><USER44> Good thing is that old games are still there, and you don't need expensive hardware to play them.

Now I play 5 year old games with a GPU integrated into my CPU. And since I'm pretty casual as a gamer (a few times a month), I'm pretty content.

</comment><comment><USER45> I've become pretty harsh on video games in general. I wasted a lot of my life in WoW, and I've seen a couple other people _waste_ their brilliant minds on video game playing.

If it doesn't contribute to interpersonal, personal, or societial good, I don't want to play it. I've gotten my 'video game' fix by playing pen and paper RPGs and meeting new people.

These days, I read history books for my "long-term amusement" and wouldn't mind playing video games with long-distance family (they don't play though).

Remember Steve Yegge's talk this summer. Please, do something more uplifting than incrementing a digital counter.

<comment><USER46> You could try playing FoldIt, at least you would be contributing to society.

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110918144955.htm)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Yes, games like that suck, but I don't find them addicting. Perhaps there is a certain type of casual gamer that likes them, but to me, they're far too obvious to be interesting.

However, I do still find games on both my iPhone/iPad combo and on console. Humble Bundle's games are great too.

Just picked up a copy of Rage last night...good stuff. And though I find WoW slightly addicting, it's still a great one.

</comment><comment><USER48> Jonathan Blow (creator of Braid) has an interesting rant on social video games: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFu5O-oPmU>

The gist being that games like Farmville are A/B tested to maximize addictiveness and profit, rather than maximizing fun.

</comment><comment><USER49> Then play old games. I still regularly play Doom whenever I need to think about a solution for something. It's fun and the gameplay is instinctive, so you can let yourself think about things while playing.

</comment><comment><USER50> anyone on this thread looking for a game recommendation, check out minecraft.net. it has rekindled my interest in video games.

</comment><comment><USER51> This sums up perfectly why people hate neoliberalism/capitalism so much.</comment>


John Titor - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor <comment><USER3> So, in the late 90's I went to a goth convention in New Orleans, where my wife met a time traveller named "Butterfly". I saw her talking to a weird looking guy, and swung by to see if she needed help, but she had that "oh this is going to be a great story" look on her face and kind of shooed me away. Later, she told me he had claimed to be from the future. He made some predictions:

\- there would be a war in Iraq, but it was not actually as big as the one that happened later

\- after the Big War, there was a disease that forced everyone to live belowground

\- he had a computer chip in his hand

\- he had a son in the future named Gandalf

This all seemed pretty wacky, if harmless. My wife enjoyed relating it all in our Yahoo Groups email group. Then, in the next few years:

\- the implanting of computer chips in pets became commonplace

\- we started hearing about new viruses every few years

\- we went to war in Iraq

\- Lord of the Rings movies came out, which made it more likely someone would name their son "Gandalf"

So, I asked my wife, "what else did that guy say would happen?"

She said, "I don't remember it all now, but I put a really detailed list in my email to the Yahoo Group."

So, we look in the Yahoo Groups history, and...that month was missing from the history.

Oh, well. If he had said anything more significant than a global pandemic and WW3, I assume I would have remembered it.

<comment><USER4> Weirdly, I met someone in Ojai, California in 2010 who also claimed to be a time traveler named "Butterfly". He was a weird looking dude who also claimed he had a computer chip in his hand. I only spoke with him for a moment but it was a very surreal conversation.

<comment><USER5> What did he say, and did he look young?

<comment><USER4> He needed a ride from Libbey Bowl (a big park in the center of town) to some other location in Ojai (which is a small enough town that giving a stranger a ride isn't completely weird). My buddy and I drove him to the place he wanted to be dropped off while he talked for a bit about being a time traveler. He was wearing a ton of different bracelets, and when we commented on that he gave us each a bracelet (in the same style as those yellow Livestrong bracelets people wore in the 2000s). Both bracelets were identical black bracelets with red symbols, that looked kind of like they were off of Led Zepplin IV.

I'm not sure how old he was. I've never been very good at estimating people's ages, but I'd guess maybe in his 30s or 40s?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Steins;Gate, a Japanese light novel and anime, includes John Titor in the story in an awesome way. It also includes some bit of hacker culture that I think is more real than the typical American movie "hacker". I recommend it!

Edit: As pointed out in the comments, this was originally a visual novel! There are many ways to enjoy this story.

<comment><USER7> Strong agree.

Stiens;Gate is the only time traveller story that I know that establishes rules for time travel early on and actually sticks to these rules till the end.

<comment><USER8> You might enjoy the movie Primer [0].

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_HHnXeMWT0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_HHnXeMWT0)

<comment><USER9> Just a heads up, the video is blocked everywhere except USA/Canada. Here's a link to the trailer if anyone is interested[0]. It's a fantastic movie by the way, a definite watch if you're interested in hard sci-fi.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vD- yj9o664&](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vD-yj9o664&)

<comment><USER8> Ah, that is too bad about it being blocked. It is an incredible movie. I've watched it a few times over the years and always find something new.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> What time travel might look like from the other side [1].

I remember a great short story I read about the first time traveler. They decided the first visit would be the Shakespeare. Shakespeare has no problems accepting that he's being visited by a time traveler, and asks what gifts the traveler brings.

The traveler is a bit confused, so Shakespeare explains that the early ones all bring gifts. The traveler has brought some gives, including a nicely bound volume of Shakespeare's plays. Shakespeare looks at it, comments on the nice binding, says something about maybe he can sell it, then decides probably not, and tosses it on a pile of other such volumes brought by other time travelers.

The first time traveler is now getting pretty confused, and says something like "but I'm the first time traveler!", to which Shakespeare answer "but not the first to arrive". This is something often overlooked in time travel stories--just because you are the first to leave for a given destination doesn't mean you are the first to arrive.

Shakespeare mentions that he's frequently bothered by time travelers, but at least doesn't have it as bad as Jesus--that guy can barely do anything without a time traveler showing up. Shakespeare explains he knows because a time traveler thought it would be interesting to take Shakespeare to meet Jesus once. All the great figures of history are frequently visited.

Somewhere in there Shakespeare provides some drink and tries to calm down the inexperienced time traveler, who is freaking out over all this. Shakespeare is an old hand at dealing with newbie time traveler freak outs.

Then a bunch of other time travelers arrive, but not to see Shakespeare. They are reporters from the first time traveler's future, there to interview him about his historic visit to Shakespeare.

[1] [https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/](https://www.tor.com/2011/08/31/wikihistory/)

<comment><USER11> Reminds me of a story where it turned out that the entire Passover crowd where Pontius Pilate asks who should be pardoned are time travellers that have been told to do what everyone else does.

<comment><USER12> My god. Google is amazing [https://i.imgur.com/XRknZWf.png](https://i.imgur.com/XRknZWf.png)

"Let's Go to Golgotha!"

<comment><USER11> That's the one!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> In April of 2004 I attended a multimedia performance at George Mason University called "Time Traveler Zero Zero - A Story of John Titor." It was directed by Kirby Malone and is still one of the more interesting theatrical productions I've ever seen.

Was anyone else here at the same showing?

Here's a review of the performance if anyone is curious -- [http://www.timetravelreviews.com/theatre/traveler00.html](http://www.timetravelreviews.com/theatre/traveler00.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> Time travel is like UFOs:

If there are aliens out there, why haven't we met some by now?

If there are time travellers, why isn't anybody making accurate predictions?

If rich people exist, why hasn't one given me a million dollars?

<comment><USER15> Several people say the have met some. But it's like, it isn't true until it happens to you personally.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Anyone who ignores an invitation to have a drink with Stephen Hawking[1] has nothing to say that is worth hearing.

1\. [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/stephen-hawking- time-t...](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/stephen-hawking-time- travelers-party)

<comment><USER17> Time travel will be highly controlled by the authorities, probably that party was surrounded by future cops looking out for rogue amateurs.

<comment><USER18> More like that you need tons of resources, skills and knowledge to do it. Nothing a private person could do.

<comment><USER19> But if the time machine itself travels through time, an unbounded number of people could use the same machine at the same time

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Related:

IBM 5110 PALM (Put All Logic in Microcode) CPU from 1978

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14483823](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14483823)

(The HN discussion in this article is great, in my opinion...)

<comment><USER21> Sorry if I'm missing the obvious but how is that related?

<comment><USER22> John Titor claimed to come back in time looking for a part for this type of computer system (If I am remembering correctly)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> How does time travel work with the Earth spinning, the Earth orbiting the Sun and Solar System orbiting around the center of the Milky Way? By the time you finish reading this comment you've moved thousands of miles with respect to the galactic center. Or am I missing something?

<comment><USER24> I like this question. It broke my mental model of time travel because I like to think of time as tied to space, maybe. If you want to rewind a thread of time, you can't really stay in the same place and poof, like Christopher Reeve laying in bed. Because the old hotel isn't in that place anymore, at some physical-historical-galactic-geography level.

Maybe it's not meant to work that way though; maybe you can uncouple time and meditate, and your other-conscious travels but in some other way than normal physical travel with forward time, or something like that.

<comment><USER25> I think that's a cool idea for a story. It also addresses the question of "if time travel were possible, wouldn't we have seen some time travellers by now?" Perhaps somewhere out there in space is a graveyard of time travellers who ended up landing in the empty void that the Earth once occupied in the time they were travelling to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Patent application, since abandoned, of his time machine: [https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060073976A1/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060073976A1/en)

> A method for employing sinusoidal oscillations of electrical bombardment on > the surface of one Kerr type singularity in close proximity to a second Kerr > type singularity in such a method to take advantage of the Lense-Thirring > effect, to simulate the effect of two point masses on nearly radial orbits > in a 2+1 dimensional anti-de Sitter space resulting in creation of circular > timelike geodesics conforming to the van Stockum under the Van Den Broeck > modification of the Alcubierre geometry (Van Den Broeck 1999) permitting > topology change from one spacelike boundary to the other in accordance with > Geroch's theorem (Geroch 1967) which results in a method for the formation > of G{umlaut over ( )}odel-type geodesically complete spacetime envelopes > complete with closed timelike curves.

<comment><USER27> I'm not a physicist and this looks legit to me. High quality mumbo jumbo!

<comment><USER28> As I recall, he did fairly well overall. But there were still some errors in the presentation. He provided several pictures, in 1990s-grade postage-stamp quality, which could cover over a lot of issues. One of them was of him shooting a "laser pointer" in his time machine powered by a black hole, and the beam being visibly quite bent. The low resolution covered over the fact this was kinda obviously one of those strings of little lights wrapped in a tube with enough plausibility to believe if you want to. But if the laser pointer's light is getting "bent" like that, _all_ of the light ought to be getting bent, not just the laser pointer, and you ought to be getting _immense_ visual artifacts due to the fact that your picture is itself being taken with light that is bending like crazy (see stuff like [1]). Not to mention the implied gravity field at such bending rates is beyond anything atomic matter can take. But even if we handwave that away, there really isn't a way to handwave away the fact that if the light from your laser pointer is getting bent, _all_ the light ought to be getting bent, to massive effect on the resulting picture.

Still. Valiant effort. Better than most I've seen. Most of them are basically "Hi, I'm from $INTEGER years in the future and it turns out that you all are exactly right about everything and all the fashionable social concerns of your day/culture/sub-culture are in fact exactly correct! In the future, everybody who didn't (eat vegan / believe in BitCoin / get concerned about the landfill crisis / accept pholostigon theory) is dead because (they where all executed by super ethical governments for the crime of eating animals / died in pauper's prisons / literally buried in garbage / of the great Pholostigon War of 1773)! Ask me anything about how right your current social fashions are!" Not that Titor didn't more than dabble in that himself, though.

[1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LHYUt9hGQc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LHYUt9hGQc)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> John Titor made poor predictions. He also said that his timeline could have been different than this one, as a way to justify prediction failures.

He said an organizarion pays him a paycheck then said he lives in a society based on bartering. There are contradictions in his posts.

The Mad Cow disease epidemic never happened, neither did the civil war he predicted, or any if the other stuff.

He also talked about using ancient IBM computers to fix some software bug from the future. Why on earth would you use that rather than a more power efficient/powerful computer?

<comment><USER30> The bug was y2036, which he said we knew was a problem even then. It is definitely still a problem.

<comment><USER31> How that problem can be solved by an IBM 5100, a computer that has never ran any flavor of unix is a mystery though.

I guess we'll find out when we have to send someone into the past to retrieve one so we can fix the bug.

<comment><USER29> You may not be able to open the files to be fixed in such ancient computer.

<comment><USER32> My understanding is the opposite.

To me it seems that in the future they for some reason need to access files that can only be opened on that computer.

If time travel is indeed possible and relatively common, it might be a better business decision to just send someone back in time to fetch a working version of that computer than try to recreate one from archived documentation (if any of it survived).

<comment><USER29> If there is something special about that computer it can surely just be executed in an emulator running on any future computer that is more powerful and uses less power, like a Raspberry Pi or its future equivalent.

<comment><USER32> This would still require having the original documentation on how the computer operated. Not to mention, some software (notably some retro console games) rely on quirks or flaws in the silicon itself, and don't actually run on a "perfect" emulator.

If time travel is common and either of these issues is raised then sending someone back to bring the real computer might be the easiest option.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> My favorite article from a "traveller,"

[https://www.ft.com/content/760546b6-c903-11e6-9043-7e34c07b4...](https://www.ft.com/content/760546b6-c903-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef)

(submitted link as post as well, since it's really that interesting)

<comment><USER34> Paywalled.

<comment><USER33> Odd, I am not signed in or subscribed to it.

<comment><USER35> Also paywalled for me (maybe because I'm in the EU?)

<comment><USER36> It's paywalled for me too, in the US. If you paste the URL into Google and follow the link from there, the article will come up.

<comment><USER35> So _that 's_ how that works :) Thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I think the US government missed a trick by not making the logo for the United States Space Force [1] the logo of John Titor's military insignia [2]. (Although I do appreciate the Star Trek looking seal nevertheless.)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Space_Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Space_Force)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor)

</comment><comment><USER38> I really enjoyed Steins;gate zero just saying

<comment><USER7> +1

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> 4chan has investigated that and discovered that John Titor is actually Donald Trump who choose the alias after his uncle John Trump - an MIT professor - <USER2> obtained the blueprints of the time machine from Nikola Tesla: [https://i.kym- cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/214/676/8aa...](https://i.kym- cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/214/676/8aa.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER39> I always wondered why Doraemon didn't just bring Nobita some lotto numbers.

</comment><comment><USER40> I wouldn't just normally post to a youtube video, but this seems rather relevant [https://youtu.be/YJYFlI4ytbU](https://youtu.be/YJYFlI4ytbU)

</comment><comment><USER41> El psy congroo!

</comment><comment><USER42> Can someone explain why this is trending on Hacker News today?

<comment><USER43> It's the choice of Steins Gate. The spread of the truth is a necessary measure to bring the actions of The Organization and SERN to light. El Psy Kongroo.

<comment><USER43> In case you didn't get it: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22558727](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22558727)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> The way he didn't mention crypto currency that must have effected their future economy already sounds sketchy. See they still using paper bills everywhere?

</comment><comment><USER45> To believe that time travel is possible is to believe that the universe keeps all the snapshots of every moment in some backup storage. From the economic viewpoint, it is very unwise. I don't think the universe is that dumb.

<comment><USER44> What do you know about the universe's economic viewpoint?

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Steins;Gate

</comment><comment><USER47> People should play the game first. Significantly better than the anime.

<comment><USER48> I enjoyed the anime more, but I also watched it first, and I think that tarnished my experience. If I were going back I'd definitely do it in the reverse order.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> A Netflix show beckons....

<comment><USER50> If you count Steins;Gate (anime available on Netflix in the UK, in which Titor is important), there already is one.

<comment><USER51> > A Hollywood live-action adaption of the game Steins;Gate is in the works.

> Anime News Network reports the big reveal came during the live concert > celebrating the 10th anniversary of the series. During the Science ADV Live > S;G 1010th Anniversary, a teaser video was played revealing a live-action > recreation of the game is being made by Hollywood for television.

[https://uk.ign.com/articles/steinsgate-live-action-show- adap...](https://uk.ign.com/articles/steinsgate-live-action-show-adaptation- announced)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> How is this so high on the news feed? This is old, and not relevant.

<comment><USER53> It's still funny!

<comment><USER54> I was unfamiliar.. but this made me laugh:

"Subsequent closer examination of Titor's assertions provoked widespread skepticism."

Ahh, it was the _closer_ examination that lead to the skepticism.

<comment><USER55> "My "time" machine is a stationary mass, temporal displacement unit manufactured by General Electric. The unit is powered by two, top-spin, dual- positive singularities that produce a standard, off-set Tipler sinusoid."

Stuff of legends

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I think about JT from time to time (no pun intended). It looks like things are starting to go the way he described, but about a 10 year time shift difference. Thankfully no CJD outbreaks but with its latency who knows.

<comment><USER34> I've often wondered if the mass shootings count as the violence he predicted in the US.

<comment><USER30> Waco like events that get worse, according to him. He said the "civil war" starts in 2005, which would be 2015.

The occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was Jan 2nd 2016 (starting slightly earlier in 2015). If there's an event that might closely mark a start of a civil war that ramps up, that's high on my list.

We'll see.</comment></comment></comment>


A Healthy Foundation: Tips for Better Physical Shape at Work - <AUTHOR> https://tech.lendinghome.com/a-healthy-foundation-d0ba70bd8a16#.u1gep25es <comment><USER2> Hey everyone, I wrote this post for the LendingHome blog. I hope you all find it helpful!

It can be difficult to distill comprehensive tips for body health into a short post, so feel free to post any questions you might have. I'd be happy to make recommendations or clarify any points from the post. :)</comment>


Run Linux in your Browser JSLinux (Update) - <AUTHOR>

Have you noticed the update?

  - There is clipboard support (bi-directional)
  - It runs on Chromium 13
  - It runs on iPad!!
    (If it does not take your input, set the focus to the
     clipboard edit box)
 http://bellard.org/jslinux/
And as a side-note, Tom has ported JSLinux to node.js
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/nodejs/B0OUf_Bd15E/discussion <comment><USER2> I am a demanding luser. My javascript coding skills are non-existent, and I recognize that I'm asking for the moon on a stick here, and HN isn't the right place to make feature requests anyway.

But I'd love to see some extra features ...

What I'd like to see?

1\. Support for loading and mounting additional read-only filesystem images embedded within the web page (presumably serialized and encoded in Base64 or something).

2\. Support for a translucent FS, to allow writes to a ramdisk to show up on top of the aforementioned read-only FS images.

3\. Support for writing out an updated copy of the JSLinux HTML file, with a saved copy of the read-only filesystem, including changes merged in from a translucent mount.

(In other words: you can edit files on a designated filesystem, then "save" the VM webpage and get a new copy of JSLinux with your edits added to the external filesystem so they're there next time you fire it up..)

4\. For added fun (but arguably this is an entirely different requirement), I'd like to see a version of JSLinux merged with TiddlyWiki, so you'd have a combined TiddlyWiki (for documentation) with a virtual Linux environment (terminal only) embedded in it, and the ability to save changes.

You'd then have a single file containing (a) a hypertext documentation system and (b) a command line Linux environment.

I would ... well, "killing" is too strong a word; but I'd probably move into it for good, using vi and MultiMarkDown for book production and small-scale programming projects and TiddlyWiki to keep track of ideas and notes.

</comment><comment><USER3> A complete list:

        added support for more browsers including Opera 11.11 and __Internet Explorer 9__
        reduced VM RAM size from 32 MB to 16 MB.
        Source code release of the Linux starter utility.
        added a clipboard to exchange data between the VM and the host
        added FAQ and News pages
        fixed monospace font for some browsers.
        fixed binary XHR for Firefox nightly builds
        fixed terminal height for the less command
        fixed ampersand output in the terminal.

</comment><comment><USER4> This running on the iPad is the win of the hacking, curiosity and intelligence over the closeness. As without any good reason (IMHO) such a project would never be approved as an app by Apple.

<comment><AUTHOR> I felt the same seeing this running on the iPad. Fantastic.

<comment><USER5> I have a feeling the 'Fruit's hands are going to stretch and block this app by some idiotic reasoning. If they can claim 'app store' they can do anything. urgh..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Clickable link: <http://bellard.org/jslinux/>

</comment><comment><USER7> It still doesn't work on my Chrome v13.0.767.1 dev on OSX. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see the project is moving fast forward.

<comment><USER8> Neither does it on Chrome 13.0.767.1 (Official Build 85531) dev Linux (much like the previous version; it gets stuck on "Freeing unused kernel memory").

<comment><USER9> Check this message:

[https://groups.google.com/d/msg/nodejs/B0OUf_Bd15E/vq7D0i0k4...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/nodejs/B0OUf_Bd15E/vq7D0i0k4IUJ)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It still doesn't make coffee, but I expect it won't be long now. My mind is still blown.

</comment><comment><USER11> It works on Android stock browser (Nexus One with Gingerbread), but it's very slow, especially on boot.

</comment><comment><USER12> I've tried to compile <http://bellard.org/mersenne.html>, alas not enough memory. Pity, that would be full win.

</comment><comment><USER13> Amazing, this guy is impressive.

BTW. It would be really nice to include an SSH client to JSLinux.

<comment><USER14> I agree with you, however.. you'll notice that it currently only has a loopback device (try "ifconfig"). It would help if there were network adapters, first :).

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> In Opera 11.11, I seem to get a max of 8 instances going, but not more. Is there a technical limitation, or a deliberate restriction?

Memory seems to be OK, the browser is just past a Gig. Although this is a 32-bit OS, I don't see a memory issue.

<comment><USER16> Virtual memory usage might be at 2 gigs?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Works great on Chrome 11.0.696.68 running on OS X 10.6.7. I'll be keeping an eye on this project. Great work.

</comment><comment><USER18> Damn, that page (bellard.org) is full of awesomeness... Pardon for my ignorance, but who is this guy?

</comment><comment><USER19> In addition to running on iPad, it also runs on Safari (5.0.5, snow leopard) now.

</comment><comment><USER20> Where's gcc? ;-)

<comment><USER21> no gcc but you can use tcc which is developed by Fabrice Bellard too :) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_C_Compiler>

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Whats the point of this? Is it useful?

<comment><USER16> Why don't you try doing something cool with it and let us know?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm wondering when he releases the clipboard source code. On the kernel side it's a custom character device. Currently he is violating the GPL. :-(

<comment><USER24> Actually he isn't violating the GPL. The GPL states that you have to make it available when requested, and as a mechanism of your choosing. It doesn't say you have to put the source code on the web so that others can access it easily.

I'm tired of people screaming GPL violation because the source code isn't posted online for their perusal.

Edit to add:

Also of note, in the tarball that he provides is the patch to the Linux 2.6.20 sources that he uses. Which... is the sources for the clipboard. Did you even look to see if the sources were available?

Deleting the comment that this was in (the new iPhone app doesn't let me edit my comment unless I missed something)

<comment><USER23> Ick, you're right. I've looked at the tarball one or two days ago, and there was no source for the clipboard.</comment></comment></comment>


China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced - <AUTHOR> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-social-credit-system-flight-booking-blacklisted-beijing-points-a8646316.html <comment><USER2> > People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking > volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic > laws and charge "under-the-table" fees are punished.

> Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying > too many video games and posting fake news online.

This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each other in contribution to a social credit system that prevents a girl from traveling and being treated kindly by anyone

<comment><USER3> That black mirror system is p2p when China's system is centralized. I believe the black mirror system is worse.

<comment><USER4> Just curious - why do you think a centralized system would be superior to a decentralized system? That would allow the norm to be dictated by the central authority, and not through public consensus.

<comment><USER3> Sorry, there is a misunderstanding. It's the other way around. I believe the black mirror system is more efficient to establish social control and is more perverse because everyone is policing it, watching you and reporting you. It's the real nature of big brother (what I remember from the book): everyone is big brother in the end and there's no escape.

Our life would be worse in a black mirror system than in a Chinese system.

Both systems are fucked up though.

<comment><USER5> are you sure about that? with hive mind mentality both are essentially a single entity working against you.

<comment><USER3> One of the option is self-regulated, the other is not. That last one conjures up a single entity you can identify yourself against. You can antagonize it, fight it. The first one doesn't give you that anchor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it's pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it's just another way to skin the cat, and maybe we should look at our-dystopian-selves in light of outrage at our foreign friends.

Edit: I think here just as there the majority will have "good credit" and actually like having an nearly permenant underclass...so just as here, I don't think there will be much incentive to change there either.

<comment><USER7> I don't think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn't too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn't that dystopian and it's usage is relatively narrow in society.

Secret no fly lists: impact a very small slice of the population. Try to find more than a few instances of legitimate travelers being blocked, which is something you can do with freedom of speech and freedom of press. I think less than 2000 are us citizens. The program in China is going to disenfranchise entire slices of their population and further limit their social mobility.

Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don't kill our own citizens. I'm an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been.

Our systems aren't perfect, but every first world nation has some system to track your financial behavior and it impacts you negatively if you don't make your payments. I just don't see any strong relationship to the oppression in China and what happens in the US. Our systems aren't perfect and your criticism has merit, but not as a comparison to China on this topic.

<comment><USER8> > The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit.

If you're rich.

<comment><USER7> Credit rating has nothing to do with how much money you have. I helped my sister who makes minimum wage move 100k medical debt off her credit record, establish a secured credit card, and taught her how to pay bills on time and negotiate with debt owners and creditors so she never gets any debt reported to credit agencies. All with her own very limited money. She moved her score from 400s to 700s over about 3 years. All credit rating shows is (1) you don't take out more than you can afford and (2) you are willing to service the debts you have to the limits you can afford. Even with 700-800 credit if you don't have much earning power you won't get a big loan, but you will get good rates on what you can afford.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Horrific predicted tech enabled dystopia now in China. Where next? what if airlines taxis and hotels shared ratings, would the west be so different? I hate Uber Airbnb pestering me for a rating every trip and the fact that I am rated as well. I don't know or care what my rating is, but my wife does, she was upset recently by an Airbnb landlord in Belgrade, she gave us a bad rating because we had not deep cleaned the place?? The apartment was awful and we had to leave at 5.OO am and the lift didn't work, last thing on my mind was hovering, no hotel would expect such, but maybe in the future only perfect behaviour will allow one to travel.

<comment><USER10> Well, nonpersonhood is nothing new to China. _Tenth of millions_ of people in China can't even get an ID because they don't have birth certificates, and without that you can't legally have a bank account, have a phone number, receive education, receive medical care, travel, own property, have family or even immigrate away from China.

And the West has nevertheless kept quiet for long 28 years.

<comment><USER11> You make it sound like something Chinese government purposefully did, when in fact, those people were simply never registered by their parents -- to avoid the fee for having a child above quota.

> _The group was never officially registered on the country's household > registration record system, known as hukou, which is closely linked to a > person's legal identity. That means they didn't officially exist—until > recently. On Friday (March 24), China's Ministry of Public Security, the > government department in charge of hukou registrations, announced that they > had helped register the 14 million._

[https://qz.com/941240/china-keeps-finding-millions-of- people...](https://qz.com/941240/china-keeps-finding-millions-of-people-who- never-officially-existed/)

<comment><USER10> That's not the case, aside from that, having ones papers taken was and is an almost mundane punishment used againts very ordinary people. There are way, way more such non-enpersonned people than just second children, children of single women, or children from marriages of other "non-persons."

It is just this time, with the social credit, the state has finally got balls to go after high class bourgeois from megacities, and lower end elites.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Wow, the top thing on my mind this morning was that the CIA was able to listen in on a phone call from the Saudi head of state.

Now this.

I have already been thinking about the possible necessity of a decentralized personas. If an employer wants to see my office persona, then I don't want those people to see my gaming persona. No reason to connect these things to a central identity.

Decentralized personas are natural in the entertainment world where you take on different characters. Authors might publish under a different name. Now even a Twitter bot with a crap AI can be a popular persona.

As negative as a turn of events as this is, it could be a positive in odd sort of way in which we might view hackers blowing open vulnerabilities. This software, like any can spread like FB - crawling across the globe and no extra cost to the goons running it. I wonder what my score in China might be even though I don't live there. Maybe next, Valenzuela. Now is the time to construct a defense - if even possible.

<comment><USER13> Valenzuela? Really?

<comment><USER12> [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant- zt...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant-zte-helps- venezuela-develop-fatherland-card/10503736)

<comment><USER14> I think GP was dumbfounded by the mis-spelling of Venezuela than actually asking for more information.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> While China has a bad record in human rights, I suggest to apply a lot of source criticism what comes to "social credit system." Especially here in Hacker News comments where discussion is generally more intelligent.

Here is more in-depth and fact based article about the topic:

[https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian- social...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/16/chinas-orwellian-social- credit-score-isnt-real/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)

<comment><USER16> > "and the admitted student who was erroneously denied his place at a > university due to his father's failure to pay back a bank loan."

It seems like you can strike "erroneously" from that sentence, since the source it cites doesn't imply it was a mistake at all.

Collective punishment is worth criticizing.

As per usual, when implementing some Orwellian scheme, there will be a crowd that states there's nothing to worry about, and that people are over-reacting, and that it's really not so bad after all.

I wonder what the social credit score of Chinese dissidents will look like.

[0] [https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit- affects-...](https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-affects- childs-university-enrolment-2018-7)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> They've already had parts of this in place for awhile. My aunt-in-law's friend has had difficulty traveling in China because she's _mistakenly_ listed in the system as being some kind of Falun Gong leader through some kind of clerical error. She found out when she was on a bus going on vacation, and they pulled her off the bus once they scanned her national ID.

She has no appeal and no way to correct the mistake. None of the police or officials she's talked to have done anything. She's just stuck with it.

</comment><comment><USER18> The way I understand this social credit system, it is trying to emulate at a scale of a one billion population the social control you had in a small XVIII century village. Basically what forces you to behave is not so much the law than the fear of contempt from your peers, which could impact every aspect of your life.

And I can't help thinking that while it may be efficient at forcing people to not behave like a jerk, it will also have the same effect than for a XVIII century village: a high degree of conformism, that supresses any evolution or innovation. It may be the desired effect by the current rulers, preventing any political challenge. But I think it will also lead to an inexorable decline of the Chinese society.

<comment><USER19> >forcing people to not behave like a jerk

It doesn't force people to not behave like a jerk, it could just as easily lead to a nation of jerks. It forces people to strictly act within a tiny zone at the center of the Overton window[0]. At scale, it means that natural ideological progress will significantly slow down.

Any ideas or actions outside the norm will be culled. It's a move to homogenise the masses and allow the party to more easily set the general direction of 'desired' behaviours. This is pretty clearly the goal first and foremost. Stopping people from being jerks is just the marketing label.

The set of measures used to determine social credit will change over the next two decades and will become an ever tighter definition of what the party wants its citizens to be. The current criteria are just the entrée that was determined to be palatable to the masses.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> As a non-chinese 'westerner', to my understanding the important background to this culturally is that Chinese culture has been traditionally much more legalistic than western culture [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_\(Chinese_philosophy\)).

It has lots of nuances but the most important difference, if compared to western view of the justice system and the rights of state, is that the most important thing in a legalistic system is to punish those that break the law, and other considerations like individuals right to a fair proceeding and so on, are secondary.

I think this social credit system is the perfect manifestation of the legalistic frame of mind. The system is built so that those that step out of the line are punished.

Western humanistic philosophy is quite new when compared to how chinese state has been ruled for millenias. I'm not saying this to make any value propositions into one direction or the other - just that there is quite a lot of cultural background here that Europeans and anglosaxons might not be aware of.

<comment><USER21> I think this is a valid observation, and I hadn't made the link yet. Legalism has been used since the very first Chinese emperors to keep the population in check. It's a tool of oppression and arguably no place has a richer history of tools of oppression than China.

Xi must be thinking "hey, it worked for millennia, why stop now?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This is obviously going to be an unpopular sentiment, but I am somewhat excited to observe the results, and I'm glad this is happening during my time on Earth.

Yes, it is a horrible thought, but in many ways inevitable: if the tech exists, it will be used for both good and evil. Better that other societies can see the outcome sooner rather than later.

<comment><USER23> > We will arrive at a moment of sufficent self-alienation where we can > contemplate our own destruction [as a species] as in a static spectacle.

\-- Walter Benjamin

So we're repeating the Nazis now, gladly, because that's easier than learning from those who made all that effort, saw and went through so much atrocities and suffering, to to learn from that, and to relay that to us, to impress the importance of it on us? I'm _so_ not onboard with that.

> We don't know a perfected totalitarian power structure, because it would > require the control of the whole planet. But we know enough about the the > still preliminary experiments of total organization to realize that the very > well possible perfection of this apparatus would get rid of human agency in > the sense as we know it.

\-- Hannah Arendt

You (like many) are kinda saying yes, it's unpopular and horrible, but "it would happen anyway". Notice how this is exactly the logic of totalitarianism, an abdication of personal responsibility. Saying "I won't fight it because it will happen anyway" is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

> [The method of infallible prediction] is foolproof only after the movements > have seized power. Then all debate about the truth or falsity of a > totalitarian dictator's prediction is as weird as arguing with a potential > murderer about whether his future victim is dead or alive – since by killing > the person in question the murderer can promptly provide proof of the > correctness of his statement. The only valid argument under such conditions > is promptly to rescue the person whose death is predicted. Before mass > leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is > marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact > depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it. The assertion > that the Moscow subway is the only one in the world is a lie only so long as > the Bolsheviks have not the power to destroy all the others. In other words, > the method of infallible prediction, more than any other totalitarian > propaganda device, betrays its ultimate goal of world conquest, since only > in a world completely under his control could the totalitarian ruler > possibly realize all his lies and make true all his prophecies.

\-- Hannah Arendt, both quotes from "The Origins of Totalitarianism"

And by the time you find out there's nothing to be glad about because it's just a spiral of control and fear and anti-intellectualism, with abusers and sadists having free pick of the litter, that won't matter anymore. There will be no allies to defeat the Nazis from the outside this time. There might be no "after".

As for societies seeing "outcomes", as you observe "results" (these are people we're talking about here), keep in mind how much of what the Nazis did _didn 't_ go to plan. The death camps were supposed to be completely removed from the face of the Earth, just like many villages they razed. If Hitler hadn't started a war, or had limited it, the world _still_ wouldn't know. It's not like we know everything that's going on in China, by a long, long shot. Just like we don't know about the Abu Ghraibs about which we never heard, and so on.

To play with fire to learn about fire, let's leave that in the early 20th century, I beg of you. We have books and other documentation.

<comment><USER23> Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

<comment><USER24> I upvoted your original post as I think it's well written and adds value to the discussion. I downvoted your response to yourself because it adds nothing of value.

Same can be said for this post, I suppose, depending on perspective _shrug_

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> China is approaching a nightmarish dystopian society, if it hasn't reached that already.

I'm glad I live in a country where I can spend however much money I feel like on video games without being targeted by an oppressive government.

You just have to love a country where you can be murdered by the government for selling marijuana, yet if you abstain from alcohol for religious reasons you are an enemy of the state and must be turned into authorities.

Authoritarianism of all forms must be opposed worldwide. Who is to say the West won't be subjugated to such systems a couple decades from now, if we don't stand up for freedoms with vigor?

<comment><USER25> I'm afraid that by the time people wake up to this, it will already be too late. Authoritarianism backed by high tech is a permanent nightmare come true. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems unstoppable - not enough people seem to really care. It's a weakness of human psychology, we are too caught up in the short- term, but in this case the long-term consequences will be terminal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> For those interested in getting a high level of how China's Social Credit System works, NPR's Planet Money did a good show on the topic last month.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/09/655921710/chin...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/10/09/655921710/chinas- social-credit-system)

</comment><comment><USER27> I want to "thank" (cyberhack005 AT gmailCOM) for helping me achieve what none of those other hackers could do. It was absolutely incredible when he helped me hacked my partner phone which enable me to spy on her phone remotely and I am recommending him to anyone that have any hacking issues that needs to be addressed. feel free to contact him for Facebook, Snapchat, Cloning, Upgrading of Grades, repairing of credit file, increasing of credit scores, Gmail, Yahoo, Instagram and Whatsapp hacks and many more. Don't waste your time thinking about this issues.. Contact cyberhack005@gmailCOM

</comment><comment><USER28> While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer.

This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)?

Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't blame them.

<comment><USER29> "Feeling safer" has almost nothing to do with the Government watching you and it's almost entirely caused by the local social norms. Case in point and to partly answer your question: I have a woman colleague who has recently moved to London from Bucharest. She told me that while living in Bucharest she had no issue at all going back home alone at 2 or 3 in the morning, while in London she avoids going out all by herself after 8 PM, because she does not feel safe.

Doesn't matter that London is one of the most camera-surveilled cities in the "Western" world while Bucharest has almost no cameras, all it matters is that there are more people in London ready to physically and verbally harass a person walking on the street all by her/himself compared to a city like Bucharest. I have no idea on how one would change those social norms, I'm just saying that adding cameras hasn't solved the issue and will probably not solve it.

<comment><USER28> Oh, I agree with you m8. I'm terrified with the surveillance stuff. I'd exchange then my "safe(r)" with "more sense of "safety"" (double quote deliberate).

Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest? Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin while she feels safer in Krakow.

<comment><USER29> > Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest?

Yeap, she has lived her entire life until this summer in Bucharest (she's approaching 30 now), and she hasn't grow up and live in the "posh" parts of town, so to speak.

> Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin > while she feels safer in Krakow.

It's funny because said colleague (and friend) has moved out to London for a Polish guy, I guess that's where the better-paid jobs are.

<comment><USER28> I'd chalk it up to the stress of moving. I used to live in US and then moved to Germany. It's normal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> One of the problems is that this is yet another system that can be corrupted. The rich will be able to buy themselves a high social credit rating, while the poor suffer.

<comment><USER31> And how is this different from any society?

<comment><USER30> Not very, admittedly. But this system is a huge step in the wrong direction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> You guys just don't know CCP. All they want is to controll everyone, eliminate dissenters and make everyone scared. It has nothing to do with social credit. —— from a chinese citizen

</comment><comment><USER33> They say that the system helps to punish for violating traffic laws or evading taxes. But why police and courts cannot deal with this? Maybe because the real purpose is something else?

Also, in some countries there are similar systems, where your rights might be restricted without court's judgement or right for appeal. For example, in Russia, if you are suspected to be an extremist, you won't be able to withdraw money from your bank account. In other countries there are no-fly lists or potential terrorists lists which restrict people's rights without being able to defend themselves.

</comment><comment><USER34> Is the 50 cent party working overtime in these threads? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party)

</comment><comment><USER35> This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for this? Was there a democratic process?

<comment><USER17> > This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for > this? Was there a democratic process?

Of course not.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new- lea...](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-leadership- takes-hard-line-in-secret-memo.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Think about how great this will be in the US. Finally, we can tag people who think incorrectly. They can be given low scores. All those people in fly overstates can just remain there. Hopefully the thought of a 72 hour car ride to a civilized city will give them pause when promoting fake news like Bernie's plan for universal healthcare is bad. It will be a wonderful day for the country when we can correct their wrong-thoughts.

</comment><comment><USER37> It's interesting that this seems so futuristic and dystopic yet in reading about the specifics it seems oddly reminiscent to social systems many centuries past. In particular it seems to effect similar results to what exile would have had at one time. But exile lost any meaning as the world become more globalized and connected -- where you physically are no longer really means anything. This system would enable the consequences of exile, but with national effect.

In a world with a perfectly impartial and objective government, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. The reason it's bad is because governments are made up of people, and people are corrupt. While it may initially be genuinely motivated by helping to improve society, over time it will devolve into a tool for special (and government) interests to incentivize actions that are to their benefit, and punish those against it -- regardless of the objective societal impact of those actions.

<comment><USER38> _> similar results to what exile would have had at one time_

Can people on the list leave the country?

<comment><USER39> Yes; China no longer has exit visas. You just might not be able to take the most comfortable form of transport.

The travel ban only seems to apply to domestic flights as far as I can tell.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> A lot of people in here reference Black Mirror, but it also made me think of ST:VOYs Critical Care [1] (which has plot holes you can just as well drive through).

[1] [http://memory- alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Care_(episode)](http://memory- alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Care_\(episode\))

</comment><comment><USER41> It could be argued that the primary purpose of a government is to make things better for people (with deliberately broad/vague words used there). I'm not sure how this qualifies. There's certainly a lot of negative language in that article, and negative language has a habit of not making things better for people.

<comment><USER42> > It could be argued that the primary purpose of a government is to make > things better for people

As I understand it, this notion only really came into vogue during the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. For much of human history, government served as a way for monarchs, emperors, and the ruling elite to maintain -- and expand -- their hold on power, regardless of what was best for the governed. Indeed, we still see remnants of this in pretty much every government on the planet -- some just are less subtle than others. Arguably, we've spent the last 3 centuries trying to subvert this process and bend it toward, as you put it, making things "better" for all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

<comment><USER44> Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China.

There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

<comment><USER21> > orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice

I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about them.

They're a splendid list of values to drum up, though, if you're the one whose boot indefinitely stamps on your subordinates' collective faces.

<comment><USER45> I'm not sure how bringing up personal experiences and racial stereotypes contributes to any conversation, especially when it is about the entire population of China (1.4 billion), its culture, and its history.

I highly recommend reading about the mandate of heaven[0]. While not particularly relevant anymore, it is important context to the cultural attitudes of your average Chinese citizen.

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I think the biggest problem with this is that citizens that want to speak out about the government will now be more easily blackballed. So now the government can more easily repress a revolution. I suspect this means that the Communist Party of China will most likely remain in power for a lot longer than their natural shelf-life. When this party makes mistakes and misjudgments, what would happen now? The people will not be able to over-throw or speak out. The people will just have to eat the costs and hope the party does not screw up too much. Basically, the Communist Party has removed one of its last checks to power, internal revolt.

<comment><USER47> Surely this is the main goal of such a system.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Last time I had read about this topic the focus was mostly on people who had defaulted on loans. One of the punishments was to have their face/name posted on a billboard publicly shaming them. I wonder if people still didn't pay back the loans, but did public service, if that would improve their score?

</comment><comment><USER49> Neo-confucianism is now digitized.

</comment><comment><USER50> Its sad technology is being used for evil. What are the suggestions to a programmer who fears his native country might adopt such systems. Are there any open source projects focused on combating such systems ?

</comment><comment><USER51> Isn't this bad from an economic perspective? I thought the gov't wanted to encourage spending and increase the velocity of their money. This directly hinders that.

<comment><USER52> Indirectly it could increase spending as they are preventing people from leaving and spending their money overseas

<comment><USER53> It will be used to promote good spending: money spend on Chinese goods and services. De-promote bad spending: foreign goods.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I think I'd rather live under something like this than the opaque, private fico system.

</comment><comment><USER55> What can I do as an engineer to alleviate this problem?

</comment><comment><USER56> In this system, is it possible to have a negative balance?

<comment><USER57> I don't know the answer but if there is a floor at 0, that would mean at this point you have nothing to loose, so that could backfire. But you probably get incarcerated before you reach some threshold level.

<comment><USER58> HN has fault habdlers in place for accounts with karma going too far below zero. It was a hellban at -13 for my old account. I did keep writing for weeks before I noticed, the exercise of which was still rewarding in a way, and I still receive few answers now. Sometimes I suspect mods to the visibillity. I reinterpretted rangeban to mean banned beyond a certain range (as opposed to how it is commonly used: the ban of a whole range of possible identities).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Just imagine if the National Socialist party in Germany would have had this in the 1930-40s. They could have been even more "efficient" in taking out the various groups of people they found to be of "low social value".

For everyone but those who believe in powerful centralized governments this is a nightmare scenario.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't _that_ much of a problem.

So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK?

George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever". He thought he was making a dystopian prediction, a warning of sorts, but he could've just as easily called it a history lesson about China.

Sure, many other places, most places in fact, have horrible histories, with evil rulers vastly outnumbering the even _somewhat_ good ones, but China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, _without pause_ , ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name.

A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad.

NOTE: Nothing against the Chinese culture or people. I'm extremely fond of lots of Chinese things, not in the least Chinese humor for which I have a particularly soft spot. I love working with Chinese people, I love meeting Chinese people. It makes me sad that such a wonderful place and a wonderful culture can _also_ have such a horrible tradition of oppression.

<comment><USER60> > China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the > population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first > emperors gave the country its foreign name.

This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted here on reddit and in the Western press. This is the very essence of people being disconnected from reality and constructing a new reality in accordance with their ideology.

Reality check: go to China and actually talk to the Chinese themselves. Radical idea! Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new. Anybody who understands how Chinese society has always worked would understand that this is the application of new technology to ideas that are nearly three thousand years old.

Anyways resume your ideological freak-out.

[1] [https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit- systems-...](https://www.merics.org/en/blog/chinas-social-credit-systems-are- highly-popular-now)

<comment><USER16> > "Citizens with access to benefits respond more favorably"

Of course they do. These sorts of systems always offer a sizable portion of the population benefits, that's how they gain popular support. This doesn't mean that they aren't terrible ideas.

You have to consider how a government affects the people who disapprove of the government, who are not part of a majority, who are not conformists.

Many people don't think this is worth doing. But the sentiment that only the conformist majority matters has led to unspeakable atrocities throughout history, and continues to even in the present day across the world.

<comment><USER61> Your criticism is very valid. But saying only the majority benefits is very different from claiming that the purpose is to oppress everyone, isn't it? That is what the gp was angered by and responding to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Beyond the obvious issues and extreme aims stated in the article, such a system is also a new, interesting take on the problem of 'crime and punishment' that might be food for thought.

</comment><comment><USER63> US and China are not equivalent

</comment><comment><USER64> Isn't it more like criminals or serious offenders can't fly? Will you allow a person who can possibly hijack the plane?

<comment><USER65> No, not necessarily.

As pointed out in another comment : "Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online."

<comment><USER66> The devil is always in the detail.

The "buying too many video games" line came from the gamification aspect of a social network owned by a private enterprise and has nothing to do with the government scheme. And even they have backpedaled from that claim:

"Hu Tao, Zhima Credit's general manager, paints a different picture now. She says the app doesn't monitor social media posts "nor does it attempt to measure qualitative characteristics like character, honesty, or moral value." Zhima Credit is not a pilot for the social credit system and doesn't share data with the government without users' consent, she says."

from [https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/03/life-inside-chinas- soci...](https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/03/life-inside-chinas-social- credit-laboratory/)

And the "posting fake news online" line actually refers to "spreading false information about terrorism" which quite a bit more serious.

<comment><USER66> I'd love to know why people downvoted me with no explanation.

<comment><USER67> I can't speak for other people, and I didn't downvote you. But it sounds deliberately dishonest to pretend this is anti-terrorism when it's based on trivial misdemeanors like smoking.

Once you've established that you're not pursuing the truth your words are only poison/noise that harms the group of us who are trying very hard to figure out what is true.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> lumber-pail Think of the upside if your status followed you everywhere you went, and instead of relying on human decency you could expect treatment in proportion to your behavior.

Something like this will inevitably arrive in the West due to human desire for status. Not much different from a thousand little decisions you make every day getting dressed and walking down the street that show the world who you are and what your values are. Now conveniently bundled and accessible to all.

Our grandchildren will wonder how we did business online without it.

</comment><comment><USER68> Interesting that there seems many posts that shows China in an unfavorable light lately....

In any case, this is one of the things that you thought you only see in fiction. It's chilling to realize that it's real.</comment>


Ask HN: What comes to your mind when you see the name "Talentrue"? - <AUTHOR>

Do you like it? Does it sound trustwworthy? What can you expect from a service called Talentrue ?<p>Thanks a lot for the feedback! <comment><USER2> My immediate thought is that it's a name trying too hard to be clever. Some portmanteaus are clever and I like, but this one feels forced. It's like my mind can't skip over the fact that there should be 2 't's in the middle of the word.

Are you worried about the TalentTrue / TalenTrue confusion?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for detailed reply. Actually we are mostly worried about _phred's interpretation :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> With all on small caps I tried to read as one word and speaking out loud sounded like a last name from a Babylon 5 embassador. Even with TalenTrue, as said before, I am always confused if I should one or two letters when writing down names like theses.

I think you should go to use two T. Nobody says Codecademy, everybody says CodeAcademy.

But the name itself, I liked. Yes, sounds trustworthy for me. I don't know if it is some kind of HR service, but if it was, I would expect that I should use it to find (or advertise my) true talent, real talent, without all the BS cover letters and "answer just what we want to hear" type of questions.

</comment><comment><USER4> Half-elven ranger. Where's my bag of dice?

</comment><comment><USER5> Tarantulas. It sounds like Tarantulas.

</comment><comment><USER6> O, cruel fortune! I rue my talent.

</comment><comment><USER7> I hate all the compos made with "true". True can be something really, really subjetive.

</comment><comment><USER8> "Talent" + "rue", without knowing what "rue" really is in this context.

</comment><comment><USER9> Hipsters trying too hard.</comment>


New York Times Editorial Board Thinks Uber Is Too Popular, Demands Price Floors - <AUTHOR> https://reason.com/blog/2018/05/09/new-york-times-editorial-board-thinks-ub <comment><USER2> The article assumes Uber can go on offering cheaper rides forever, but every piece of serious analysis I've read comes to the conclusion that Uber must eventually raise its prices to sustain its business. Nothing in the NYT article attacks dynamic pricing, to the contrary it reads to me as endorsing the idea of dynamic pricing. The whole blog post is flimsy.

<comment><USER3> Of course Uber will eventually raise their prices to profitable levels. But if they have their way that won't be until they've driven every other taxi and ride share service out of the market and they have us all by the short and curlies.

<comment><USER4> There's a very low barrier to entry with taxi services, so I don't foresee any ridesharing getting the kind of strangehold on the market that you describe.

<comment><USER5>
      There's a very low barrier to entry with taxi services

In New York, it's extremely _high_ to have a legitimate taxicab, as a medallion is required. They went for over $1 million 5 years ago and are still 6 figures.

<comment><USER4> I meant sans regulatory barriers to entry of course.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>