Close Encounters of the Java Memory Model Kind - <AUTHOR> http://shipilev.net/blog/2016/close-encounters-of-jmm-kind/ <comment><USER2> I'm not done reading this yet, but I have a "does this have a name/does this exist"-type question after reading the jcstress example (section 1.1):

It seems like it would be possible to enumerate all interesting orderings of several threads running at once at the threading-engine level, and therefore do this kind of probabilistic test deterministically.

Of course, the number of possible orderings of two _n_ -length programs is very high (2n choose n, since 2n instructions are run in total and you can place the n instructions in one thread first). But the language definition also provides some concept of 'commuting' operations. For example, unrelated writes to two different variables can't have their orderings matter. That should cut down the number of orderings a great deal. And it's possible useful even if it it's only practical for small programs with few total orderings.

Is there a language or framework that does something like this?

<comment><USER3> Sounds like you're describing Microsoft Research's CHESS (2007), and a host of related projects (Google's ThreadWeaver for Java).

See [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/projects/chess/](http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/chess/) and [https://code.google.com/archive/p/thread- weaver/wikis/UsersG...](https://code.google.com/archive/p/thread- weaver/wikis/UsersGuide.wiki)

<comment><USER4> I made blogpost about thread weaver some time ago. Not very useful [http://www.mapdb.org/news/thread_weaver/](http://www.mapdb.org/news/thread_weaver/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> i barely know some java, and i have heard of concurrency and locks, and probably understand the idea of thrrads. yet, i found this to be a thoroughly enjoyable and mysterious read!

<comment><USER6> Aleksey Shipilev is a great developer and writer. His articles are must read!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I recently talked with a Microsoft engineer and his observation was that a lot of MS customers have troubles running their C# code on ARM. As with Java C# does not guarantee much beyond stating that word-sized writes are atomic allowing a lot of reordering. However, Intel CPU are nice to developers allowing a lot of buggy code to work, but ARM is not forgiving resulting in a really hard to track bugs.

</comment><comment><USER8> Wow. That made my head hurt. And, I'm more convinced than ever before that threads remain a TERRIBLE idea. Maybe Java 13 will have something like Erlang tasks with isolated memory and message queues (only) or something...

Somehow I expected more on memory allocation, arrangement or whatnot, rather than concurrency access. Glad I clicked on it for the nightmarish skim, though.

<comment><USER9> Complicated things are not inherently terrible ideas: your CPU is complex, but you have compilers to abstract you from it. Likewise the ways your multi-core machine shares memory is complicated, and the JMM partly abstracts it, but really you're meant to use much higher level constructs. The JMM matters to people writing lock libraries and compilers, not ordinary users.

It's a common logical fallacy that you can simplify a complex solution by simply redefining the problem it solves as not a problem. The "Erlang model" you discuss is in fact the model the entire computing world used before threads were invented and there were only processes. But threads weren't invented for shits and giggles, they were invented for good reasons!

<comment><USER10> > But threads weren't invented for shits and giggles, they were invented for > good reasons!

I remain unconvinced ;-) It always seemed to me, that if threads were such a great idea, operating systems should expose threads, and not processes. In a way NT and Linux took different paths here - on Windows processes are expensive, on Linux threads and processes are pretty much the same in terms of overhead (but threads obviously allow sharing memory, for better or worse).

I've long suspected that if threads really could "be done right", they would've been preferred to processes. But just like people worked really hard to get hardware protected memory to be fast enough to be usable, I think working hard to get processes to be "fast enough" is more viable than "getting threads right". Amusingly, I suppose Erlang is actually an example of how mixing the two ideas can be a great idea: Don't let programmers know their "process" is a scheduled thread, force messaging over shared memory - and reap the benefit of light weight processes and strong(-ish) protection between threads...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wonder whether Java will get displaced by Swift on the server at some point. Anyone want to place bets?

No garbage collection, so no GC performance hiccups. No explicit threading for easier concurrency.[1] Optionals for protection from null pointer exceptions. These are 3 of the biggest problems in server-side Java programming, I'd say. That's before we even get to the elegance of the syntax.

[1] [https://developer.ibm.com/swift/2016/02/22/talking-about- swi...](https://developer.ibm.com/swift/2016/02/22/talking-about-swift- concurrency-on-linux/)

<comment><USER12> > No garbage collection, so no GC performance hiccups.

If your models are naturally highly cyclic, dropping a GC can vary from painful to near impossible. I think a better solution for most server-side code (from both an ease of use and performance standpoint) is to use a hybrid GC/arena approach, centered around tasks.

If most of your work and memory churn centers around discrete and relatively short-lived requests, you can allocate all objects whose lifetimes are bounded by the duration of the transaction in a thread-local arena. You can't beat unsynchronized bump-pointer allocation, and you can simply throw the memory away at the end.

I've been really disappointed with the lack of innovation in the memory management space. Rust is the only recent language I've seen that did something more significant than choose between GC and reference-counting.

<comment><USER7> Working with cycles under reference counting is not impossible. The key is good memory reporting tools. Yes, sometimes even with tools identifying a memory leak through cycle with reference counting can be painful. However, the fix itself is typically very local and easy to test. Compare that with a C#/Go/Java application after it turned out that GC-induced latency is unacceptable. The fix could be a massive rewrite that makes the resulting code maintenance nightmare. And if in the case of Java there are at least some knobs to tune the GC that could be enough to fix the problem, with Go or C# the code rewrite is the only solution.

As for local object pools, they are nice as long as their size is smaller than CPU cache. Without the control on the pull size it is very to easy to accumulate a lot of local garbage that it starts to hurt the performance.

<comment><USER12> The problem with both approaches is how binary they are. GC latency is an issue if the active part of the heap gets too big and/or any strategies you have for dealing with short lived garbage (e.g. generations) get overwhelmed. The simple solution is to give flexibility in how allocations are done. C# does this a bit but makes you pick per type, instead of per instance. Go goes a bit further, but it still only leaves you with the options of stack allocated/containment and GC. What would be ideal is having stack allocated, ARC, and GC all be options in the same program.

Another advantage of the task-focused approach is that you can optionally collect the arena if it has gotten too big _without_ halting the whole program (just the running task). In this case, you may have latency on one request but it need not effect latency on other requests.

> As for local object pools, they are nice as long as their size is smaller > than CPU cache. Without the control on the pull size it is very to easy to > accumulate a lot of local garbage that it starts to hurt the performance.

How is this different from the ARC case? If your working set fits in the cache, great, if it doesn't, then you'll have problems. If your allocation/release patterns are such that the allocator keeps handing you the same exact pieces of memory, then you're basically doing stack allocation. Not to mention that RC doesn't help the cache-unfriendliness that comes from heap fragmentation.

<comment><USER7> I really wish arenas with optional GC would be more supported in main stream languages. Erlang got it so right. That and using reference counting for global structures where the type system or API guarantee absence of cycles should allow for responsive and maintainable applications without the nightmare of manual memory management.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have a task coming up about reducing the memory of some WebLogic Java applications, I'm not very familiar with Java.

Does anyone suggest a book / site / tool I can use?

Currently they have Min/Max/ 4 GB and Object 2 GB for the Java args and I want to delve into it to see more about actual memory use etc.

<comment><USER14> VisualVM can do that. It helps to have some background on the different spaces and JVM options. Ken Sipes' "Tuning the JVM" and the book he recommends are good starting material. It is a highly nonintuitive skill.

<comment><USER13> thank you very much!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> That zalgo toward the end made me smile.</comment>


Easy way to install ruby 1.9.2 on ubuntu - <AUTHOR> http://www.binarytides.com/blog/install-ruby-1-9-2-on-ubuntu/

<comment><USER2> Better still: install rvm, and set 1.9.2 as the default.</comment>


Wikipedia's resident shipwreck aficionado - <AUTHOR> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/09/27/peter-isotalo-vasa-mary-rose/ <comment><USER2> The Vasamuseet (the Vasa Museum) is one of the most awesome museums I have ever been to. Also the War Museum, which is also in Stockholm. If you ever get to Sweden, those two are certainly worth a visit. If you can only go to one, definitely make it the Vasa, but if you like museums, you will really enjoy both.

<comment><USER3> This. The Vasa museum exceeded my expectations more than any other tourist attraction I have ever visited.

<comment><USER4> Likewise. People frequently told me to go see the Vasa and I rather expected it to be something like the Mary Rose; historically interesting but the bare shell of part of the hull of a boat. Basically some wet wood.

When I went inside the museum in Stockholm and saw the ship my reaction was essentially "OMG that's f'ing HUGE!" so it really is worth making time to see it.

<comment><USER5> Reading this thread of comments make me feel like an idiot.

I live in Stockholm and curiously enough – if I read the map correctly – I'm even very close to where the Vasa sank. My favorite means of transport into central Stockholm is via ferry. One of the stops is a very short walk from the Vasa museum. It takes me probably all of 30 minutes door-to-door to get there.

I love museums. I love history. I love anything maritime. One of my favorite museum visits when i lived in London was the national maritime museum in Greenwich.

Alas, I've never been to the Vasa museum.

Fortunately, it's an easy problem to solve – I'll go next week. Thanks for (unintentionally) kicking me into gear, much obliged!

<comment><USER6> I lived in Los Angeles for more than five years before accidentally seeing the Hollywood sign. (The Vasa is much better.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Has Wikipedia ever pursued the idea of giving scholarships on important articles?

Seems they're perpetually short of funds, but a "funded by X" tag at the bottom and some branding of the effort might make a go of it. And Wikipedia seems weaker on the "History of the Roman Empire" type of articles that you need to spend time in dead-tree libraries to do correctly.

... sad to say, history majors who didn't go into law aren't exactly expensive.

<comment><USER8> I was on an ABA panel discussion once that debated whether lawyers should contribute to Wikipedia. The irony is that while lawyers use wikipedia for all sorts of things, experienced lawyers rarely contribute. (Wikipedia's legal pages are full of inaccuracies inserted by well-meaning but naive law students.) The thought was to have certain articles written and maintained by lawyers, or an ABA committee, with perhaps an ABA logo attached. The problem was that as soon as anyone else makes an edit, that badge of respectability is meaningless. An article curated by an expert also runs contrary to the purpose of a wiki.

I would caution against many of these articles so dominated by a single person. They may be great. They may be 100% accurate and full of lots of interesting detail, but they do not necessarily have a broad base to support their upkeep once that one person moves on. I've also seen some rather messy arguments where the original author takes subsequent edits very personally. There is advantage to not allowing one person or group to become too attached to a particular article.

<comment><USER9> I really think that Wikipedia needs a "Golden" overlay; The ability to select to see the last revision marked as good by some 'authority' instead of the 'live' version by default. This would be a good mix of the benefits of a wiki, and the assurances of authority.

<comment><USER8> Ya, but at some point that turns wikipedia into encarta. The power of wiki is the ability for the crowd's opinion to dominate. But where the crowd is just plain wrong on a subject the expert must swim again against the tide. They end up lecturing to a bunch of people who really don't want a lecture.

Say "I'm a fighter pilot" and you can edit the F-15's page to your hearts content. But "I'm a lawyer with 40 years constitutional law experience" means nothing if you plan on contributing to anything on the "landmark decisions" list. That is the domain of law review students and their pet cases.

I cannot count the number of times I've found myself typing out half a lecture's worth of information in reply to an online article, only to delete the entire thing before posting it. Certain subjects just cannot be taught in a public forum. That's why lawyers discuss such things in special schools and private email lists. (Email lists are like 90+% of what the ABA does.)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Permanent temporary jobs - <AUTHOR> https://kiply.com/blog/permanent-temporary-jobs/ <comment><USER2> TL;DR: Buy our awesome tool to be fit for the changing world of work.</comment>


Ask HN: Better, more secure password manager? - <AUTHOR>

Currently I am using mitro as my password manager, I do not know how secure it is thus I am looking for others that may be better. E.g. a more widely-used solution <comment><USER2> According to _Password Managers: Attacks and Defenses_ [1,2], you have two practical choices among popular options, 1Password or KeePass.

Other popular options like Lastpass, Password Safe, or browser built-ins have known flaws or happily send your credentials to arbitrary third parties.

1\. [https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity14/technical...](https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity14/technical- sessions/presentation/silver)

2\. [http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/pwdmgrBrowser.p...](http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/pwdmgrBrowser.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> Since 1998, Strip. Now on iOS, Android, Win, Mac.

[https://www.zetetic.net/strip/](https://www.zetetic.net/strip/)

[http://www.darkreading.com/risk-management/security-fail- app...](http://www.darkreading.com/risk-management/security-fail-apple-ios- password-managers/d/d-id/1103401)?

[https://media.blackhat.com/bh-eu-12/Belenko/bh- eu-12-Belenko...](https://media.blackhat.com/bh-eu-12/Belenko/bh- eu-12-Belenko-Password_Encryption-Slides.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER4> I've been using 1Password. [https://agilebits.com/onepassword](https://agilebits.com/onepassword)

<comment><USER5> My workflow would be severely damaged without 1Password. It's really awesome, the best password manager I've seen on Mac so far.

<comment><USER6> Can't work without it. It's good to see they update regularly, and improve a lot in UX (which is good already).

Well worth the money, and I believe it has become cheaper now that they have freemium iOS app.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I switched to LastPass recently due to convienience, but I still don't feel safe using it. Just waiting for a day where there is some sort of breach and all of my passwords will be leaked.

Before that I was using KeePass, which is great to use, but it is nice having the autofill, password generating, etc in the browser for you.

</comment><comment><USER8> Password Gorilla: [https://github.com/zdia/gorilla/wiki](https://github.com/zdia/gorilla/wiki)

Linux/Mac/Windows clients. Some number of Android apps. that are compatible with the underlying file format.

</comment><comment><USER9> I like lastpass.

<comment><USER10> Me too.</comment></comment>


GalaXQL – Interactive SQL tutorial - <AUTHOR> http://sol.gfxile.net/galaxql.html <comment><USER2> Does anybody have a really good tutorial that takes you the next steps beyond this level. I looked at the table of contents and see all the basic stuff I use pretty regularly. For those of you more advanced in SQL - what are your favorite resources for moving into solidly intermediate and on toward advanced skills in SQL

</comment><comment><USER3> A bit slow, which I will chalk up to the HN effect.

Would prefer query results to show up where that useless galaxy animation lives instead of having to click back to the guru.

UPDATE my_table SET ... returned "Query Success (0 columns, 0 rows)" even though it affected all rows.</comment>


Dancing Orchards on the I-5 - <AUTHOR> https://hardmath123.github.io/orchard.html <comment><USER2> > _The effect is most pronounced with freshly-planted trees_

I'd suggest that a well established, well maintained orchard planted on a grid is even better. They always got my attention even as a kid, going to shop in bulk at local orchards. The limbs are kept pruned off of the ground at a consistent height, providing stark relief where the alignments of trunks obstruct or reveal distance. Best experienced riding past slowly on the orchard's gravel drive, in a car built much closer to the ground than they are these days. The visual alignments strobe through several different iterations, it's just stunning.

</comment><comment><USER3> [Author here - pleasantly surprised to see this on the front page! :)]

<comment><USER4> Thanks for the article!

I wondered about this too for a long time, but never got to think it through. (So, naturally, I stopped reading the article half-way through to try and figure it out.. still on it!).

A small request: the photo on that page is a 10MB, 16MP image displayed at 600px x 600px. It took a noticeably long time to load on my current connection.

You can resize it and shrink to under 100KB without any visible loss in quality, making the page way snappier to load (and more accessible to people with slow connections).

Thank you again for an interesting article!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wow i never realized before, but a lot of nature reserves and parks begin just where the arable land ends..</comment>


Capitalism is dead, long live the organism - <AUTHOR> http://www.findmegoogle.com/2012/02/24/capitalism-is-dead-long-live-the-organism/

<comment><USER2> So right. I am so glad you wrote this.</comment>


Knitting as programming  - <AUTHOR> http://infotrope.net/2012/05/16/knitting-as-programming/ <comment><USER2> Well, the Jacquard Loom (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom>) was a massive weaving loom capable of producing highly sought-after intricate patterns in silk at impressive even-by-todays-standards speeds.

It was one of the first programmable things of any kind, and its punch card approach inspired Babbage (who was a contemporary - yes this was programming, industrial style in 1815)

</comment><comment><USER3> I think for clarity it's useful to differentiate two forms: (i) the "cool", hacker mode of knitting and the (ii) the grandma mode. Knitting and sewing have become popular in hacker circles (e.g. [http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/03/22/the-cool-new- thing-w...](http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/03/22/the-cool-new-thing-with- tweens-sewing/)). The main differences between the two, I think, are that in (i) the practitioners formalize and think about the system for improvement whereas in (ii) knowledge is learned by informal apprenticeship (my grandmother did great needlework and knitter, never saw her read any patterns like the ones given in the OP) innovations are rare, maybe 2-3 new patters per decade.

Similar differentiation apply to cooking and other disciplines which require discrete, well-defined steps to arrive at a precise result, the number of dishes in any given cousine are tiny compared to the menus of recent innovative chefs.

 _This_ I think is a great analogy for programming, there are programmers who learn their trade from copying code, reading guides, etc. and these guys can churn out useful code. However, unless you think about what you are doing, formalize it, reify it, and search for ways to improve it you won't invent anything new.

<comment><USER4> Despite your assertion that the "grandma" mode of knitting isn't programming and mostly doesn't innovate, that (rather more diverse than assumed) community is responsible for the vast majority of new patterns and often experiments extensively. I think it's great that more (computer) geeks are getting into fields that have always had a high geek percentage and you can definitely make it a really geeky endeavor, but there's a lot of wheel reinvention and failure to RTFM. Fun, definitely worth doing as a learning experience, but perhaps we shouldn't be so much with the patting each other on the back and insularity. For that matter computer geeks aren't even in the running for geekiest approach to knitting - for that you have to go to the heavy math folks. It's intellectually, visually, and tactilely beautiful stuff.

Also you know appear to know little about real world cooking outside of a recent, highly-distorted, and publishing industry-driven world view. Recipes may list precise ingredient measurements (though most don't), but they're rarely intended to be used as-is and there's huge variation in detail. Even more so, almost all cuisines are more a collection of common techniques and ingredients than a set of well-defined dishes, with much regional variation, and huge historical change. Most European-descended Americans and much of Europe use a _tiny_ subset of the ingredients our ancestors did and have completely dropped entire genres of food. Just take a look at the actual variety of citrus fruits versus what we use and the huge range of uses they were put to.

It's like someone decided Java was the only programming language, the standard library was the only library allowed, and btw we needed to get rid of half the syntax! In that metaphor you're lionizing a couple of programmers for making the jump to Objective-C or C# while somehow overlooking the vast majority of programmers using everything from for decades Perl to ML and mixing things up left and right. Yeah, a lot of chefs & professional cooks (these are terms of art, not just a fame thing) try new things... and no, they're not even close to the only people doing so. In fact it's mostly a recent thing that chefs are innovators, for a very long time they were the ones working precisely to recipe. Consider the formalization of French haute cuisine by Antonin Carême & Georges Escoffier and the subsequent rigid adherence even now.

Try learning cooking from a cook - not a book - experimenting for yourself, and reading one of the many books like "Cookwise" that actually get into what happens and how to change it. It's the antithesis of hacking to assume there's nothing to learn and no room for experimenting!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> NASA in fact did knit memories for the Apollo guidance computer.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory>

"Software written by MIT programmers was woven into core rope memory by female workers in factories. Some programmers nicknamed the finished product LOL memory, for Little Old Lady memory"

</comment><comment><USER6> Knitting _patterns_ constitute programming—straightforwardly Turing-complete, thanks to conditionals and recursion—but knitting itself, the object produced by knitting, does not. It's just output, unless of course someone writes a very very clever knitting pattern that lets you simulate Rule 110 by tugging bits of yarn. (I'm not holding my breath.)

But knitting is not the only programming language for string-based objects. There's weaving, crochet, lace, macramé, and more—ostensibly you could make all the same things with these techniques as you can with knitting, but you will go about many things differently, and different languages are suited to different kinds of problems.

But this shouldn't be surprising: programming is a craft, and all crafts have parallels.

<comment><USER7> Bobbin lace patterns look like they could be the output of some finite state automata:

<http://www.vansciverbobbinlace.com/Patterns.html>

<comment><USER4> [Obligatory disclaimer: I am not a lacemaker, but my very geeky SO is (and a knitter and weaver and so on and so forth) and often delivers discourses on the subject and several of my friends have been similarly inclined math geeks who knit & such.]

To a first approximation a lot of them are - simple geometric/topological rules applied in a loop, a small number of branches, occasionally recursion. There's a huge amount of technique and no small amount of technical knowledge in making them work with a relatively high friction material with variable tensile strength & stretch. Execution on this stuff often involves keeping more mental state than most of the programming I do so clearly it's not always as simple an automata as it might seem, but there's a kinship.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I was looking at this the other day. My other half does a lot of knitting. Some interesting stuff:

Knitting markup language: <http://www.knitml.com>

Knitting is an acceptable LISP: [http://wetpixels.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/knitting-is- acceptab...](http://wetpixels.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/knitting-is-acceptable- lisp.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> So one of my daughters is a knitter, we wrote a perl script together to convert text instructions to charts [1]. Some folks find the charts easier to understand. During the process she really got a feel for how similar knitting and programming are.

[1] <http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/graphics/knit-chart.svg>

</comment><comment><USER10> Becky Stern is a hacker with some knitting projects. You can use a knitting machine to iterate your patterns faster :) [http://sternlab.org/2010/11/hacking-the-brother- kh-930e-knit...](http://sternlab.org/2010/11/hacking-the-brother- kh-930e-knitting-machine/)

</comment><comment><USER11> While carrying out those commands might not be programming, writing them down should count as programming.

But then again, documenting any algorithmic process could count as programming by those standards, say, baking a cake.

</comment><comment><USER12> Judging from the 4th episode of the tv show Connections, programming <i>evolved</i> from knitting, so this is not surprising.</comment>


The Upcoming Jack and Jill Compilers in Android - <AUTHOR> https://www.saikoa.com/blog/the_upcoming_jack_and_jill_compilers_in_android

<comment><USER2> Interesting enough, Google chose to build upon the Eclipse java compiler instead of Sun/Oracle's javac. I'm guessing this is due to javac being GPL and the Android SDK being Apache License 2.0.

This is strangely reminiscent of Apple's strong backing of LLVM.

More competition and corporate funding in the compiler scene is always a good thing.

<comment><USER3> Perhaps I don't pay attention to these things enough (or haven't seriously worked in Java in a while) but to me it was interesting simply to find out that Eclipse has its own Java compiler instead of using javac.

<comment><USER4> For me too :-) I'm guessing, it's a reference to this:

[http://eclipse.org/jdt/core/](http://eclipse.org/jdt/core/)

See also:

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3061654/what-is-the- diffe...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3061654/what-is-the-difference- between-javac-and-the-eclipse-compiler)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Really bad news for strong Java shops and developers. This move away from Java byte code probably means very little hope for Java 8 compatibility in Android any time soon. For myself, I wrote Java server code for a decade before writing Android apps and the companies I work at often have an order of magnitude more Java server programmers than Android programmers, if they have any Android devs. So more compatibility and feature parity with Java proper would have been great.

<comment><USER6> I don't follow. What does this have to do with reducing the possibility of Java 8 compatibility?

One advantage the Jayce development seems to provide is the possibility of optimizing Dalvik bytecode output based on data that is hard to recover from Java bytecode but present in the Java source. Secondarily, there may be build time improvements, but build times aren't C++ bad.

But my best guess at why they did this is to support Java 8 on older devices. Without Proguard in the build system, they would have to include the entire Java 8 class library subset they plan to support in every build, resulting in massive distributables. By building Proguard into the base build system, they can include just the part of Java 8 that is necessary for the app. Jayce likely has some features that make the Proguard tasks easier.

I'm speculating far beyond the OP here.

<comment><USER7> > I don't follow. What does this have to do with reducing the possibility of > Java 8 compatibility?

Nothing, assuming Google cares to implement invokedynamic support.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> If ART is based off of the llvm toolchain how easy would it be to create a C++ frontend for it?

<comment><USER9> Or a native backend?

<comment><USER7> ART is a native backend.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Is the name a reference to the (reportedly) terrible Adam Sandler movie, or something else? And if the former, why?

<comment><USER11> The terrible movie and the toolchain both reference a common folktale:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_Jill_%28nursery_rhyme%...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_Jill_%28nursery_rhyme%29)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: We launch, now what? - <AUTHOR>

I don't know if this question was already asked.<p>What do you think are the steps to follow, and also the steps to avoid? <comment><USER2> First thing to do after launch is: Get people to signup/use your service/product. Then measure.

After that decide if it is a business and scale.</comment>


Storied: Capture and Share Family Stories - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/elijahwoolery/storied-capture-and-share-family-stories

<comment><USER2> Love the story behind Storied! I'm fortunate to not have anyone in my family suffering from Alzheimer's, but I can only imagine how hard it must be to see someone struggle to recall people and events that define them, and then to have something that can help bring some of it back.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks Alan. Yes, it is very challenging indeed to see someone you love slowly losing touch with their defining experiences.

It also makes one poignantly aware of the ephemeral nature of our own memories.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> My parents, in there late seventies, are just now deciding to give computers a try! I would be excited to share something like this with them and help preserve their story and our collective family history.

<comment><AUTHOR> The product is really more geared for you to use _with_ them as your family's digital ambassador. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Great app! Spread the word about the kickstarter campaign so they can release it.

Neri

</comment><comment><USER5> Way cool project!!

</comment><comment><USER6> love this story!!</comment>


Stress and its consequences for software development - <AUTHOR> http://www.the-programmers-stone.com/about

<comment><USER2> I've just scanned the article, and it does indeed look very worth reading.

I'm particularly interested in this (from the introduction):

> But I also discovered that I was playing with fire. Whenever I got a team > ready to be really useful, there would be a bizarre negative reaction from > all sorts of other people who were employed within the same organizations, > but were not part of the teams I was working with. Sometimes this effect was > so strong it could become a workplace hazard, and it always grew until the > teams themselves were no longer able to function.

I know _exactly_ what he is talking about. I have seen it happen in very different contexts (including contexts not at all related to software development): when you get a group of people that is starting to accomplish things, people within the organization act in _strange_ ways to shut it down.

It looks like this particular issue is addressed on the 7th page: "The Dreaded Jungian Backlash". (It also looks like you need to read the preceding pages to understand it all.)

I look forward to finding out what the article has to say.

<comment><USER3> I managed a team that gelled once (not because of any skill of mine; it was an amazing team). It was surprising how much antipathy there was from other people in the company. Even though everybody on my team was happy and they were being amazingly productive, I somehow got labeled as the bad manager.

<comment><USER4> Ever hear of Wilhelm Reich's concept of the "emotional plague"? Many human beings react with antipathy when others express a greater aliveness than they themselves feel capable of. Reich's idea was that this was because their feelings were being stirred to a greater degree than they were able to tolerate, provoking a clampdown reaction. I've noticed something like this many times in companies: when a small oasis of creativity spontaneously forms, the larger organization often acts to destroy it.

Jerry Weinberg told a great story once about a company he consulted at where every software project failed, except for a handful of successes. He looked into the successes and found that they had all been the work of one team. The team had intentionally covered their tracks (I forget how) and actually pleaded with him not to report on their success. He didn't heed this request, though, and told an executive about them, presumably with the intention of encouraging more such teams to develop. The executive responded by disbanding the team! Shocked, Weinberg asked why. "Because I didn't understand what they were doing." Weinberg said, sarcastically, "Would you rather they succeeded in a way you don't understand or failed in a way you do?" The executive replied, quite unironically, "I would rather they fail in a way that I understand."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _I also discovered that I was playing with fire. Whenever I got a team ready to be really useful, there would be a bizarre negative reaction from all sorts of other people who were employed within the same organizations, but were not part of the teams I was working with._

Have you ever been working in one of those organizations and your coworkers goad you into not working so hard? They say things like, "You're making us look bad." or "Take the day off early."

Little things like that. Some have more humor in them than others, but everyone wants to work as little as possible for as much money as possible. If a super team comes in and makes work look fun and easy and they actually accomplish a lot, it raises the bar for every other team and even individual in the organization. Like little self-organized unions who pressure other union members through psychological stress and booby traps.

This is the same problem afflicting our culture at every level, from kindgergarten to the board room to the white house. It has created the mess we are in right now.

</comment><comment><USER6> Very interesting. I just noticed this comment, and I think the guy stumbled into something about why FP is popular in a certain population:

"The language requirement is because Native American languages are verb based. Hopi has no nouns at all. I argue that nouns are good for sorting objects into categories and associating responses with the categories. Verbs are better for describing processes and relationships. People using _verb based languages_ are very likely to be a population that assumes juxtapositional thinking is available to them."

Update: The short version of the article is that your brain has two modes of thinking. The one programmers use he calls "Juxtapositional", and cannot be accessed when the chemicals associated with stress are present. He then draws the relationship in the above quote, where Native American cultures were less stressed, and used verb based languages.

Notice that many of the "weird" programming languages are verb based / functional? lisp, haskell, forth, etc. Maybe some of the power of these languages is related to the fact that only people who aren't stressed like using them?

<comment><USER7> _Hopi has no nouns at all_

That one sentence makes me doubt the entire essay. No language can get along without nouns. The Wikipedia page on the Hopi language has examples of nouns.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_language>

Can you imagine any normal person being able to live their life without representing physical objects? That isn't just a functional language; that would be like a programming language without variables or data structures.

There's a trope in North American culture of supposing that Native Americans were or are somehow holier than other kinds of people, or even had access to some special states of consciousness. Their cultures are nearly destroyed so it's hard to check that. But I think it's silly and probably kind of patronizing.

There is some work which does suggest that a Neolithic tribe can have very different concepts of time and number, but this is still a point of controversy. I don't believe we're going to find the key to enlightenment here, just a different way of thinking, which is way more important than a fantasy for nirvana via linguistics, IMO.

Although, I will forgive this author because it's not central to his argument, and he has a point about how Native American lifestyle was the antithesis of modernity.

<comment><USER8> > that would be like a programming language without variables or data > structures.

I would say it's more like a language where every "noun" is really a "verb" in disguise—e.g. combinatoric logic. You can let K and KI mean true and false when speaking _about_ combinatoric logic, but when _using_ it, they're still verbs (combinators), not values.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I guess Frank Herbert was right, "Fear is the mind killer."

Profound perspective. I programmed for 13 years and was increasingly burnt out by shorter time lines and more controlled projects. I thought I had completely lost my coding mojo and took a leave of absence Nov. 2008. I may yet relive my hayday of coding wizardry!

<comment><USER10> Did you get better?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Finding this essay made me glad I read Hacker News today! I don't think I would have found it any other way.

</comment><comment><USER7> The article is mostly informed speculation, but its sweep is so large, the conclusion almost becomes trivial. If we accept that the entire culture is literally sick, there are deeper implications than just programming productivity.

<comment><USER12> That thought scared me - are most people in office jobs stressed out all the time? Does fear really drive our society?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've followed the "Programmer's Stone" concepts off-and-on, almost forgot about them entirely. This is definitely the best iteration of them yet.

</comment><comment><USER14> Interesting article. I don't doubt that stress can limit creativity, but from my own experience, some stress seems to make me more productive. At times, a little deadline pressure is a good motivating force, and I find it easier for me to get into and stay in "the zone" where I'm completely focused and able to work at a fast pace. Continual stress would likely make things worse, but a few weeks of deadline pressure can really make me work harder and better.

To be honest, I skimmed through parts of the article so I hope I'm not repeating or misrepresenting what the article says, but it seems like the best process for me is to have some stress free time at the beginning of a project to let things percolate, and then later on, have a looming deadline to help me focus and grind things out.

<comment><USER12> I agree - deadline stress works best at the end of a project where you already know what to do and how to do it, and you just need a kick up the rear to get things moving rapidly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> It seems he's let the Reciprocality.org domain expire, and only put some of it on the new domain. There was some interesting stuff there, including the original Programmer's Stone book. I wonder if I still have the .zip of it.

<comment><USER15> Granted, some of his theories made him sound like a crackpot, not that that means they were false.

<comment><USER15> Aha, it appears to be mirrored here: <http://www.buildfreedom.com/content/reciprocality/>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I had trouble following this. Anybody care to take a shot at explaining what it says, or what's good about it?

<comment><USER16> A great deal of this is similar to the findings on management and creativity and/or stress and creativity.

Stress kills creativity because it creates a chemical reaction that forces your mind to focus intently and over-rely on previous experience. This might help if you need to run away from a bear, but might hinder if you're trying to solve a tricky problem that requires exploring and potentially letting go of assumptions.

Similarly it's very tricky to "manage" creativity or any task where you can't specify and measure either the process or the outcome (preferably both). You may sadly realise this covers most white collar work but it only really gets talked about in relation to obviously 'creative' things like advertising and R&D.

The basic of management there is "don't", though there are some things that help such as "clan controls" where you hire people with a particular value set (e.g. scientists or open source programmers) and encourage them to be evaluated, outside of work, by their peers.

It might be worth pondering a comparison between an leading advertising agency work areas and Google's famous playgrounds.

This guy proposes that the bits of the company that can be managed traditionally (sales, clerical workers) thrive on (or are even addicted to) continual stress and this causes a hidden rift between them and the programmers (etc.) who absolutely require at least some time in the stressless mindset in order to do their job.</comment></comment>


I know my lack of extreme excitement can be off-putting - <AUTHOR> http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2011/09/my-lack-of-extreme-excitement-can-be-off-putting.html <comment><USER2> Amen. I'm exactly the same way. There should be a support group.

Worse than being merely off-putting, I think it actively hurts, personally and professionally, when your don't get as excited over every little thing as your peers. People take it as a sign of indifference, and judge you for not being a "team player" or other such nonsense.

I long ago learned that it's always best to keep your mouth shut rather than saying negative things in public (though it can certainly be a lot less fun). But the little trap that no one warns you about is that it's possible to be perceived as negative simply by being less enthusiastic than baseline. And it drives me _nuts_ when people put me into positions where my only option is to feign enthusiasm, or to say something negative:

Rude Person: _"isn't Yanni just the most brilliant musician ever? And how about that Kenny G -- jazz will never be the same, right?"_

Me: _"um. indeed."_

This kind of stuff happens all the time, and it never gets any easier to navigate.

<comment><USER3> I'd bet that enthusiasm is significantly related to memory, too.

"What's the most exciting project you've worked on?"

"What's your most exciting vacation?"

If I haven't already considered the case for such interview/icebreaker questions, I just don't tend to remember things on that axis since most of them kind of clump together around the origin. So if I want to even try and give an answer they were looking for, I have to do a random search through a bunch of memories and guess at levels. Or default to the first thing I remember regardless.

<comment><USER4> My lack of excitement was interpreted as a lack of passion. And I was told startups look for passion. So sorry. I found it both annoying and silly. Silly, because the founder hadn't sounded any more excited than me and passion is such a vague term for him to look for.

The irony is i can and have gotten extremely excited (mostly when i am not recalling anything similar) in the past, but found that it is a disappointment almost always. So nowadays, i try to recall similar things and try to see the differences.

<comment><USER5> > My lack of excitement was interpreted as a lack of passion. And I was told > startups look for passion. So sorry. I found it both annoying and silly.

I was just told the same thing at a big company. I'm sorry, but I thought I was hired to develop good software, not be on a cheerleading squad. My mistake.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've never been impressed by any of the startups that are released in the last few years (YC or other wise). Including my own products. I find them run of the mill, meh kind.

The last product that I thought was cool, was Dropbox and that was a few years ago.

I was doing this judgment thing while I am trying to promote my own products. And I realize how hard it is, how difficult it is to find anyone to give a shit.

I now applaud anyone who gets a semblance of recognition or notoriety. Gimmicks or otherwise. I know how hard it is to pull those off. May be some are lucky and are born to attract the world towards them. But most are not.

There must have been an incredible amount of sacrifice, self doubt and disappointment that I do not know about.

I now celebrate every one's victories, no matter how small they are. I know how hard they are to come by.

</comment><comment><USER7> Gabriel Weinberg is amazing at blogging! He revolutionised the anti-extreme excitement movement!

Seriously though, it is a good idea not to get swept up in the waves of hysterical enthusiasm that can follow some personalities and companies.

As the post states, apathy isn't the answer. I think a bit of healthy skepticism is all that's needed to be able to see past most PR/fanboy noise.

</comment><comment><USER8> In my experience, the difference in _default level of communicated excitement_ between UK and US teams can lead to friction because to the Americans it seems like the Brits are being surly at all times.

<comment><USER9> The differences in default humour settings are also _really_ noticeable on transatlantic conference calls.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm the same way - I can't remember the last time I became so excited about something that I became visibly animated.

Like Gabriel says, that doesn't mean I'm not passionate, but others may interpret it as such, or think that I don't care at all about anything.

When something happens and I feel like there's a risk of someone misinterpreting my lack of visible reaction as something it isn't... I give a visible reaction.

That is, if something legitimately good and exciting happens, and I'm the only one in the room not celebrating, I'll force a smile/laugh/shout if there's someone present who doesn't know me well enough to understand my stoicism.

I don't feel like a fraud or phony for doing this; doing it is like accommodating a guest. If I raise my voice when talking to someone who has hearing loss, I'm not faker, even though I don't normally talk that way. If I use simple English to talk to someone who primarily speaks Spanish, I'm not being duplicitous.

It's not a disavowal of my personality or "wiring" to do this; it's a recognition that not everyone is so familiar with me to understand my particular emotional set point.

<comment><USER11> I also share this stoicism, and have a good friend who is the complete opposite.

I like that this thread both supports people like us, but also reminds that it has a real effect on communication with others. I like how you put it, it's like we need to learn to speak their language to keep communicating.

The burden is on us, because our natural state is to not communicate in the ways they are used to.

My friend has come to understand me and now knows how to read and question me to pull what he wants out, but I do think that many more people are like him than you or I.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> What I hate is when someone gets uber-excited about x and I don't, they then get offended because they think I don't like it all that much or that I don't like them. Yet if I say something critical (constructive or not) about x, they also get offended, even if they have nothing to do with it. I guess there's no 'right' thing to say.

</comment><comment><USER13> I know some people that have the excitement-meter ratcheted up to 11. I don't put any faith into what they have to say, because the hyperbole makes it so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I have noticed a similar trend in the last few years of startups - the field's just so crowded, everybody's trying their hardest to get noticed, so what better way to attract attention than to bludgeon the word "awesome" into a bloody pulp?

</comment><comment><USER14> I've often regarded this as one of the main cultural differences between Americans and Britons (with Gabriel being more like a Brit in this particular generali[z|s]ation).

And my conclusion is that this phenomenon cuts both ways. There are benefits and downsides to being highly enthusiastic or being reserved and I'm glad that there are different kinds of people on this planet. Kumbaya.

</comment><comment><USER15> That's what the aikido principle, Living Calmness or Seishi, is, IMO. Just because i'm not expressing my enthusiasm, doesnt mean i don't think its cool, I'm just Calm.

<http://www.aikiweb.com/spiritual/reed1.html>

</comment><comment><USER16> Somebody wrote that the English "His work is quite sound, actually" may be equivalent to or exceed the American "His work sets the standard we all aspire to." The fellow writing was a dean at Virginia Tech; I remember the name of the book as _To Rise Above Principle_.

</comment><comment><USER17> This was a very fascinating read. As I was reading it, I kept thinking "I didn't write this, did I?" I've honestly ne er read or heard someone as accurately describe the way I feel about getting excited about stuff. My friends tell me I'm weird for not getting more excited - one swears I'm an android. Truth is though, I feel it's a strengh of character that we can control our excitement. It allows us to stay rational in situations that others find impossible.

</comment><comment><USER18> i think the problem is people find it hard to adjust to other people's different excitement baselines. if you are less excitable or more excitable it shouldn't really matter because people should be able to adjust in the long term to take more notice or less notice. i'd be more suspicious of people who have high excitement baselines because it seems like it might be more beneficial to have high excitement than low excitement.

</comment><comment><USER19> Something I have learned is that at least some varieties of "extreme excitement" are a sign of character flaws, an indication that someone's trying to sell something not worth buying. That said, a morose lack of any excitement is also a negative sign. Best to be in the middle, a bit subtle but with a keen eye for quality and an affectionate (but not infatuated) respect for excellence combined with a reasoned aversion to idiocy and disease.

Also, something one learns over time is that the startup/technology world also has its in-crowds and celebrity bullshit just like any other social ecosystem. Yes, we have people getting million-dollar checks who don't deserve them; it happens. The celebrity nonsense is generated by, and it benefits, people of low character who really don't belong in our world, people who care more about exclusive parties and velvet ropes than about buckling down and getting shit done and building something great. The good news is that in 15 years, each and every one of them will be a bitter, morose has-been. (I made the mistake of working for a late-'90s dot-com celebrity, someone who spent more money than most people make in 20 years on a fucking launch party before crashing and burning a year later. Details withheld since this is my real name.)

</comment><comment><USER20> Well then I do have one advise. Do get excited. And next time it happens, scream a little. Laugh out loud. Hug the person next to you. "There is no growth in comfort".

<comment><USER21> Oh, sod off. Some people simply can't. I know, because I'm one. We're still excited -- we just don't show it.

Literally, we can't. You may as well be asking us to detach our arm.

<comment><USER22> You can't perform those physical actions? Were not talking about conjuring a feeling, were talking about emulation the actions that usually accompany them.

<comment><USER23> Isn't forcing yourself to emulate an expression pretty weird, though? It reminds me of the companies that demand everyone be "enthusiastic" and love their "fun workplace", rather than just allowing people to be quietly good at their job (<http://www.kmjn.org/notes/funsultants_and_gamification.html>).</comment></comment></comment></comment>


DDoS Simulation – Prove your mitigation system is credible - <AUTHOR> https://mazebolt.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Make sure to continuously check your security systems in place!</comment>


An Antique Toaster That's Better Than Today's [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y <comment><USER2> There's a simple reason why this toaster was discontinued, and that's because it can't be made from commodity components which are used by all toaster manufacturers, as well as in a variety of other domestic appliances.

Plus, assembly looks quite intricate and probably highly manual.

It's beautiful, sure, but go and buy a toaster today and see how much premium people are willing to pay for a designer brand with no functional advantage.

Sadly toasters all work "well enough". This is a textbook example of great engineering being trumped by globalised economics and fickle consumers.

<comment> denton-scratch Toasters do not all "work well enough". Shout if you have a toaster that you bought less than 5 years ago, that is still working. I think they're supposed to start failing after a year or two.

[Edit: if it's older than ten years, say how old - they made them better back in the olden daze]

These devices are sold for ten euros/dollars, or so. You really can't do good product design to that sort of price point. People expect to have to "recycle" them.

I bought a toaster for which you can order replacement heater elements, or a new timer. You can dismantle it and reassemble it with a normal electrician's screwdriver. The timer is clockwork. The whole thing's very steampunk.

It cost about 8 times as much as a "disposable" toaster. I don't know if it was a good deal; I'll tell you in a few decades. But if I don't have to bother with replacing it, from my POV that will be money well-spent; I'm sick of replacing stuff that should still be working. I'm sick of "hardware" that's really made of tissue-paper. And I'm sick of furniture that's made of wood- chips.

</rant>

<comment><USER3> Right. It's unreal how hard it is to find decent shit built to last, and don't tell me I'm not willing to pay a premium for it, because I am willing. What I don't like buying is shit branded as upscale high quality that is really the same garbage underneath.

I'm sure there a number of different elements at play here, but one aspect I've seen happen time and again is private equity buying out a company and using that strong brand to make progressively shittier and shittier goods, for the same or higher price, while still retaining enough critical mass mindshare that the brand is still "quality".

<comment> denton-scratch Yeah, they did this with all the good British bicycle brands. Raleigh, Dawes and so on; they were good bikes. Nobody makes good bikes in the UK any more. The good bike makers got bought by Chinese companies, and the results are crap. Get a USA bike. Trek are good value.

<comment><USER4> Trek makes 99% of its bicycles overseas.

<comment><USER5> As do 99% of bicycle manufacturers producing CF frames - the expertise and manufacturing base are primarily in Taiwan, and everyone from Trek to Canyon are sourcing from the same few people. There are some boutique brands still doing lugged carbon builds that may be assembled in the USA with the AL components manufacturer here as well, but they'll be more expensive and worse performing models for the crowd who hasn't moved on from their "steel is real" phase.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 3 months ago, I wrote a mini-rant in response to this video about how this is the Worst Toaster Ever Made: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20177007](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20177007)

I stand by every word I wrote. I'd rather use a propane torch. It'd be quicker and easier and safer.

<comment><USER7> In the follow-up video he goes through how to adjust the thermostat and spring tension. So maybe your toaster was just adjusted wrong?

Maybe also just an example of something that's "too clever by half" [1]

My own mini-rant: We got a KitchenAid mixer for our wedding and I think it's the worst mixer I've ever used. We had a Sunbeam growing up and it was superior in every way.

[1] [https://www.epsilontheory.com/too-clever-by- half/](https://www.epsilontheory.com/too-clever-by-half/)

<comment><USER8> I'm curious about the KitchenAid you got: Which one? Looks like the current Sunbeam mixers are fairly "cheap", compared to the KitchenAid "bowl lift" ones.

We have a bowl lift and I love it, though that's with an asterisk... Ours is a ~7 year old one (maybe 10), and the drivetrain is pretty crappy. The accessory port is driven by some really nasty looking sintered metal gears, and some teeth on ours broke, despite never having used the accessory ("PTO"?) port. I ended up taking it apart, I could get replacements for everything but I ended up disabling the accessory port because that part of the drivetrain was so sketchy. The rest of it was just fine.

The newer ones, as far as I can tell from a disassembly video I watched, are vastly superior in the drivetrain. Ours, has been a real workhorse since I did this fix. I used grease with a lot of molybdenum content, but should have used something rated for high temp, because at one point a few months ago my wife had it smoking.

<comment><USER7> We have the tilt one and not the bigger lift model. I eventually realized that the reason it couldn't even break egg yolks was that the set screw was adjusted wrong so the beater couldn't even get low enough to do anything useful.

It may be great once you get used to it. I mainly discovered that we don't have any need for a mixer.

The new Sunbeam mixers really are crap. My mom bought a replacement since something gave out on hers that must have been from the late 70s / early 80s. I think she used it once or twice and it either gave out or didn't have enough gusto to even mix up a batch of cookies. She got a KitchenAid that she feels similarly disappointed with as I do.

The thing that was great about the Sunbeam style mixer is that the beaters were at the back end of the bowl and a little rubber nub on one of the beaters "walks" the bowl around and shoves everything through the beaters, so everything gets mixed up really evenly. Plus you can grab the side of the bowl and move it back and forth to break stuff up better.

The other advantage is that the front of bowl is always open for pouring things in or scraping things off the sides.

The planetary gear thing the KitchenAid does just seems weird to me and doesn't seem to actually mix things thoroughly. Probably just a learning curve I've never bothered to go through...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's awesome how this toaster works, but for practical purposes, I would prefer a toaster that does not auto-start.

One of the challenges of cooking is juggling multiple things so the food is all ready at the same time. Being able to do steps in advance helps with that. This actually kind of matters for toast because freshly toasted bread is a lot better than cold toast.

So it's helpful to be able to take bread out of the package, stick it in the toaster, and put loaf of bread back where it belongs when convenient, then come back later and start the final step (actually toasting) at the exact right time.

(On a side note, in actual fact, I have never had a toaster. A toaster oven does everything a toaster does and more. You can make a hot sandwich with melted cheese, for example.)

<comment><USER10> Had a toaster that would detect when you put bread in & start. Issue: walk away & if you don't take the toast out within a dozen seconds of it finishing, it'd go on to toast toast

<comment><USER11> This one has a latch that prevents that. To fire the second time you have to remove the toast (it's mentioned near the end of the video).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm really happy to see that a Technology Connections video made HN, this guy produces really entertaining and easy to digest videos about technology most people don't give too much thought to. While I can't say I learned anything new most of the time (This video and the one about TOSLINK are exceptions), I was entertained and can use these videos to send to someone who doesn't have a huge technical background on stuff.

</comment><comment><USER13> Very neat design, but there are highly advanced toasters nowadays. There just doesn't seem a market for them in the West (yet?).

Bloomberg recently covered high-end Japanese toasters: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-16/this- japa...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-16/this-japanese- toaster-costs-270-it-only-makes-one-slice-at-a-time)

<comment><USER14> There are high end toasters in the west. I feel like no one did any research at all.

[https://www.toaster.org/glass-toasters/](https://www.toaster.org/glass- toasters/)

<comment><USER15> I don't see any evidence that that site did comprehensive reviews and analysis. Just a bunch of Amazon affiliate links.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> We actually have one of these, and it's absolutely brilliant. It's been in constant use since my father-in-law was growing up, and yet it still works flawlessly. I've never burnt a piece of toast with it.

It's kinda depressing that today our toasters are less useful and stop working 10x sooner.

<comment><USER17> Our family had one of these too. I remember it as being better and longer lasting than any toaster I've had since.

And it lasted a loong time - 30 years or so.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I actually had one of these for a good long while. I was too terrified of it to pull it apart and understand the mechanism, but it was a great example of UX.

Removing just the step of pushing down and fast return actually did make me appreciate it more.

But he is absolutely right when he pointed to the paper insulated wire as a truly hideous and terrifying thing. My toaster did eventually burst into flames, and that's about where I think the fire started. Hard to tell when looking at twisted metal.

I think this is a great example of the kind of things that planned obsolescence has killed. The design could probably have been improved, and the safety brought up to modern standards, through research and iteration.

However, why invest in making a better toaster when you can sell a $2 worth of toaster for $5 that will expire in less than two years?

<comment><USER19> That's not regular paper. It's probably some sort of mica-asbestos composite and definitely not flammable.

Fire is likely to be caused by bread crumbs, since otherwise there is nothing combustible in the toaster (unlike the plastic-ful modern ones.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm a massive fan of my classic Dualit 4 slice toaster. (Look I'm British we like toast, alright?)

I was all ready to pooh-pooh this new fangled design from the 60s vs Dualit's classic design from 1952; it's the Technics SL1200 of the international toast scene.

Honestly though this design is ingenious! Video is well worth watching (assuming you like toasted bread comestibles).

Now if you'll excuse I'm off for some afternoon crumpet.

<comment><USER21> > my classic Dualit 4 slice toaster

\--- which is around $300 and still selling. I think we need to rethink the reasons that the Sunbeam was discontinued.

<comment><USER22> It sounds expensive, but we've had ours for over 20 years, and I expect it to last another 20 (or beyond) and look just as classy.

It's mechanically simple, easily serviceable (four screws), and spares are readily available.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> this channel is truly excellent, strongly recommended if old electronics are even kind of interesting to you, and still worth a shot if they aren't. in particular i'd recommend this video about the sony trinitron:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aFhzGEBQlk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aFhzGEBQlk)

<comment><USER24> I can also heartily recommend watching Alec's videos. He also has a second channel for the "DVD extra"-kind of content that doesn't quite fit into the original videos, or is cut due to time constraints; I find these also interesting (link leads to "Filming CRTs", demonstrated on the Trinitron used in parent's video): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0IC0bu3dg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0IC0bu3dg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> "Now you know why you were taught to never stick a knife down a toaster"

That's the most interesting part of this video to me. I was definitely taught this, and I never understood why because modern toasters don't have this problem (where the insides of the toaster may be connected to a live wire even when off). Funny how this kind of cultural knowledge persists after it's no longer relevant.

It's crazy to see just how unsafe appliances used to be. People maybe don't take that safety differential into account when lamenting the complexity and unreliability of modern stuff.

One other safety thing: it looks like this toaster may not raise small toast high enough to easily grab. Most toaster levers let you manually raise the toast higher than normal to retrieve it. Without a lever you are forced to reach into the hot slot and risk burns or electrocution to retrieve your toast before it cools.

<comment><USER26> Toaster tongs. I don't remember encountering a toaster that could lift while I was growing up... but toaster tongs were a hit at every Tupperware party.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Yeesh, looks like an antique fire hazard to me. Also, unless the video is mistaken, if that complex linkage fails or the inner heating element fails then the thermostat on it is going to be blocked by that bit on the bottom of the bread carriage that's meant to block it while the carriage is lowered. That seems like a good way to get it stuck in the on position so if someone just looked at the toaster, they might not even realize that it's still on because the bread isn't lowered. What happens if something flammable like a letter slides off of something unnoticed and falls into the toaster? Even if someone is home and awake the thing moves slowly and is downright silent when it turns on and lowers the toast. The first sign of something going wrong might very well be flames.

This thing is a burn hazard, shock hazard, and fire hazard all in one.

<comment><USER28> Why would you have a letter near your toaster? Also why not unplug it when done?

<comment><USER29> > Why would you have a letter near your toaster?

The standard American household with 2.3 kids has _everything_ on the counter near the toaster.

For the "oven" style toasters there's an significant chance that there's something made out of either paper or plastic atop the metal roof ready to melt as well.

> Also why not unplug it when done?

And plug it back in every morning? That'd be unnecessarily annoying.

<comment><USER30> There is this new fangled technology called a switch - or can you not turn American sockets off at the wall.

<comment><USER31> You can

<comment><USER27> That's the exception, not the rule in America. The only widespread use of switched outlets was back when floor lamps were much more common around the 70s. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a switched outlet on a kitchen countertop other than the one below it for a garbage disposal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> As a Brit watching this video, i had to stop and google a couple of Americanisms:

"unpolarized cord" \- good god, you mean you can plug most American appliances in either way round, and so random parts of them will be live? This is the worst country on earth!

"toaster strudels" \- correction, this is the greatest country on earth.

<comment><USER12> Pretty much every modern appliance is polarized.

The key to note, in most houses when the unpolarized stuff was new, there were alarmingly few ground sources nearby, so the fact that one side of the appliance was hot, doesn't actually matter that much - so while it's safer now, it wasn't that unsafe then. I'd also point out, these choices make more sense when you consider the lower voltage of US power distribution.

<comment><USER33> Pretty much every modern European mains powered device is double insulated so it doesn't matter which pole is live and which is neutral.

Some countries do have polarized connectors (UK, some Polish, France, Belgium, etc.) but many do not. However supposedly competent electricians sometimes connect them the wrong way round anyway or omit the earth or both as I discovered in France last year.

See this web page for a convenient list of mains connectors and countries that use them: [https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and- sockets/](https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> As ingenious as this is, can you truly call it simple? I mean just look at the patent alone, it has over 120 listed items and the real production piece probably even more. It is mechanically incredibly complex, combining all kinds of levers, materials, linkages, thermal expansion, small tolerances, reflecting radiation, latches, bimetallic switches. Contrast this with a basic design which can probably be made with 2 or 3 moving parts only: the spring, some latch and a time/heat-controlled relay.

Assuming you'd want to replicate this thing with modern equipment, would it be cheaper and simpler with a servo and a µC?

</comment><comment><USER35> Loved this video. The mechanical design of this thing (the solely mechanical design) is a thing of beauty.

</comment><comment><USER36> I kinda want one. I wonder if people will start buying and modding them? I can/t wait for /r/MechanicalToasters

</comment><comment><USER37> The vintage toaster you want, no bagels, is a Toastmaster 1B16. my parents have my grandfather's toaster of this model and I have one from ebay. Perfect toast each time. Sunbeam made a similar one though it had less adjustment as seen in the video but I think it was inferior to the Toastmaster; I have both and both still work

Please note, whomever is using the name now is certainly not making a toaster of the same quality.

they weigh a good amount but that tends to be the case of anything from the forties and fifties.

Example auction of a 1B16 [https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage- Toastmaster-1B16-Automatic-...](https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage- Toastmaster-1B16-Automatic- Toaster/283620320392?hash=item420916a488:g:RT0AAOSwEtpdhSdn)

Great site for toasters [https://toastercentral.com/toaster40s.htm](https://toastercentral.com/toaster40s.htm)

</comment><comment><USER38> Except how do you stop it early?

<comment><USER39> There is probably a button, but at worst unplugging it works as toast is raised when the coils cool.

<comment><USER6> There is no button. You can sometimes make it abort by slamming the intensity dial all the way to the left. But yes, in general you have to unplug it, which is horribly inconvenient.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> It seems like modern toasters try to accomplish so many requirements which are boring and dull at the expense of giving up on ingenuity and beautiful design. Take for example bagel mode, nearly all modern cheap toasters support that, this adds complexity and reduces viability of a rather simpler yet elegant design. Manufacturers wanting to satisfy these rather mundane requirements in order to not only appeal to as many consumers as possible, but also avoid a type of boycott because product X cannot do task Y, thus it's inferior marketing arguments, they forego engineering elegance.

<comment><USER40> This could be a type of The Tyranny of the Minority [0] having to satisfy so many small yet forcefully demanded items.

[0] [https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/02/the-tyranny-of-the- minor...](https://areomagazine.com/2019/04/02/the-tyranny-of-the-minority-and- how-to-prevent-it/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I don't think he's right that you could implement a bagel mode on that toaster by just running the center heating element. Both heating elements are necessary for the toaster to function (which he mentions!). You need to run the center element to drive the bread lifter, but you also need to run the outer element to heat the side of the bread facing the bimetallic strip. You can't put the bimetallic strip on the center side of the bread, since it needs direct exposure to the heat radiating off the bread, and the coiled center heating element would get in the way.

<comment><USER42> Additionally, there must not be a hole in the center of the bagel as that would cause the heat from one side to radiate directly to the bimetal on the other side.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I inherited one of these from my grandfather. I always thought it was elegant because there was no manual lever, but I had no idea how complicated the mechanism is (current through a wire heats it so it expands, triggering a series of levers). After watching the first part of the video I wanted to get it back out and start using it again. Then he described the paper insulation around the wire, and I decided not to. Maybe in a few years my kid and I will watch his remediation video and give it a try. Seems like a pretty serious fire (and electrocution) hazard as-is!

</comment><comment><USER44> A while ago, I wrote (1) about an old toaster I had bought at a thrift store 7 years earlier and that I'd been using daily since. Now, 5 years later, I'm still using this same toaster, and it still out-toasts most newer toasters. I really believe it's getting harder to find quality products that are built with longevity and repairability in mind.

(1) [https://medium.com/@wkjagt/i-love-my- toaster-d9b335d4abf9](https://medium.com/@wkjagt/i-love-my- toaster-d9b335d4abf9)

</comment><comment><USER45> The nichrome wire is under tension in this device.

When the nichrome wire breaks (eventual common failure I think), wouldn't that cause a high risk of the live wire touching the body of the toaster?

<comment><USER46> Note that the host isn't saying that this 60s toaster _as designed_ is better in every way— rather, that a modernized version of this design would be better than toasters designed today using the latest electronics.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The left-hand slice of toast when it comes back up at 1:19. >:(

Good video though. Pushing the toast down 3-4 times before realising the damn thing is unplugged is my signature move.

</comment><comment><USER48> That is a lot of moving parts for a toaster. It seems like even a few crumbs falling into the wrong spot would jam the falling/raising mechanism.

</comment><comment><USER49> On a slight tangent: when I saw the title I thought "I'll probably have to post a link to that Technology Connections film showing that natty old toaster".

His channel is really interesting; even if like me you find his style a little irritating at first it really grows on you when you see that he really knows what he's talking about. One of my favorite channels next to Jeff Cavaliere (Athlean-X).

</comment><comment><USER50> It's not as if similar toasters don't exist. I have a similar one in my kitchen.

[https://www.kitchenaid.com/countertop- appliances/toasters/tw...](https://www.kitchenaid.com/countertop- appliances/toasters/two-slice/p.pro-line-series-2-slice-automatic- toaster.kmt2203ca.html)

<comment><USER51> There are modern toasters with the auto drop functionality but none that I'm aware of that sense the temperature of the bread like the old sunbeam does.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Get a toaster oven. Does everything a toaster can, better. Reheat cookies, make small baked goods, and just easier to use.

<comment><USER53> I've used both frequently, and I don't think the toaster oven is easier. It's just better for things that are not slices of bread or bagels, so I'd concede it's a more general kitchen appliance. To toast bread in a toaster oven, I need to open the glass door, then position the bread on the tray, close the door, and then turn the dial. Then I have to open and close the door after toasting.

With a toaster, it's just drop the bread in and push the lever down. Then pull the toast out when done. It may not seem like a significant number of saved steps, but if you're doing it over and over again it adds up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> Knew who this was before I clicked. Do yourself a favor and browse his other videos: there's absolute gold in there.

</comment><comment><USER55> Pfffft toasters. Pan-fried toast is the best toast! This is _irrefutably_ true, because you can add butter to a pan and not a toaster! In case you aren't convinced: isn't a grilled cheese sandwich one of the best uses of bread? Case closed. Throw out your toasters and bathe in the wonderous joy of pan-fried toast.

</comment><comment><USER56> The Swedish company Husqvarna used to make toasters that would carefully lower your bred, close the lid, and then carefully bring it back up much like the toaster in the video.

Unfortunately, Ic an't a video of it, or even proper product descriptions (it looks like they discontinued toasters). And yeah, it wasn't as consistent :)

</comment><comment><USER57> Toasters like that are still for sale. I have one I bought at Target -- hard to get more mass market than that.

I recently moved into a smaller space so put the toaster in my garage and just use the oven like we did when I was a kid. My watch tells me when to pull it out!

</comment><comment><USER58> Highly Recommend this channel btw, lots of quality videos on old technology.

</comment><comment><USER59> Anyone remembers the afterdark screensaver from the PC era? It looks like this toaster was used for the flying toaster. Amazing product, pity today's stuff is just built so poorly.

</comment><comment><USER60> I have this toaster and LOVE it.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=crc8n7D4kYg](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=crc8n7D4kYg)

<comment><USER45> Does anyone know how Breville are making really usable appliances?

I bought a microwave oven which has a very good UI (buttons, knobs, layout, display).

Also: why do I fear the UI of anything with a German brand name?

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> My grandma is still using the toaster she bought int he 60's. My mom is still using the same microwave she bought in the 80's, crank dial and all.

</comment><comment><USER62> I like how the first time he puts toast into it, the left one comes out charcoal black before the cut. I wonder what happened there.

</comment><comment><USER63> I love this channel so much. Well done Alec!

</comment><comment><USER64> So, you have to toast two pieces at once?

<comment><USER65> No, if you have one piece of toast you put it in the slot that has the lever.

<comment><USER64> ah, I was trying to stay around in the video until he got to that, but even at 1.75x I couldn't handle it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> That is pretty brilliant.

</comment><comment><USER67> I love this guys videos.

</comment><comment><USER68> It's antiquated. My toaster uses machine learning to determine the "doneness" of the bread. Thereby allowing for breads of variant moisture levels to be brought to the same level of doneness, independent of surface heat.

Couple that with the fact that my toaster is also connected via 802.11g to the INTERNET where, naturally, I can view the toast progress via an iOS or Android app. A live feed of the toast progress is streamed to the app, and I can either cancel early or allow the bread to finish toasting. Upon finishing, a push notification is sent to my phone. Nice.

Lastly, and this is probably the highlight feature... I can share my toasting status to social. With the click of a button I can share a screen shot of my toast, WITH my choice of camera filter. Nothing says "ive got it better than you" than a picture of a perfectly toasted piece of toast with a christmas spirit filter.

<comment><USER69> It's all fun and games until someone hacks your toaster to start toasting penii onto the surface.

<comment><USER70> I would pay good money for a toaster that would print my own uploaded designs into

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> We are approaching The Toaster Event Horizon.

</comment><comment><USER72> 18 minutes for that. Jesus Christ.

</comment><comment><USER73> Someone should introduce this guy to the Teasmaid, I think he'd be equally impressed

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teasmade](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teasmade)</comment>


What are the odds of pulling 3 1984 quarters from a pile? - <AUTHOR> https://gist.github.com/1933460

<comment><AUTHOR> A friend asked this on twitter this morning and I just couldn't help myself.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely no background in statistics so I could be, and likely am, way off. What are you thoughts?</comment>


Wifi Skeleton Key has 270M active users, now valued at $1B - <AUTHOR> https://www.techinasia.com/chinese-app-stealing-free-wifi-270m-monthly-active-users-worth-1b/ <comment><USER2>
        The app also crowdsources login credentials, so when one user logs into a
        hotspot, his or her credentials are added to the database so that everyone
        else on the app can also use that hotspot. Users cannot actually view these
        credentials so as to protect user data.

Holy shit, that sounds insecure.

<comment><USER3> As a small-time reverser I can tell you, even without having heard of this program before now, that it is insecure.

The rule of thumb: If it runs on the client's device or if the client can read it then it can be cracked, inspected, seen, analyzed and decoded. There is nothing you can do to protect code/data you send to the client's device (for long).

<comment><USER4> The client isn't the problem, since you could push custom code to read the wifi key yourself. The problem is that the server will have everyone's Wifi keys.

<comment><USER5> The problem isn't in reading, but using the wifi key. The app promises to keep the wifi keys secret from other users:

> "... credentials are added to the database so that everyone else on the app > can also use that hotspot. Users cannot actually view these credentials so > as to protect user data."

But if a client app can download the wifi key from the server and use it to log in, then a _modified_ client app could also download all wifi keys and show them to the user.

There is no practical way for the server to distinguish the original client app from a modified one as long as the user is in control of the hardware and OS it runs on.

<comment><USER4> Oh, I see what you mean now, I thought they meant secret on the server. Yeah, obviously they can be read if they go to the device, and verroq on the other thread looks like he found out how to decrypt the keys in the local cache.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > Wifi Skeleton Key responded in February, calling the rumors slander and > stating that the company collaborated with Baidu on a number of security > measures.

ohh, this baidu [https://citizenlab.org/2015/04/chinas-great- cannon/](https://citizenlab.org/2015/04/chinas-great-cannon/)

edit: > Users cannot actually view these credentials so as to protect user data.

this is technically impossible; you need the creds on the device so you can pass authentication; that's the whole point of... _any auth protocol_. while you could in theory have a remote oracle that signs/encrypts packets without giving the device the key, I don't think WPA-PSK allows this without sending the entire packet. along those lines, if you can send off the packet to be encrypted for wifi, then you can just do the whole connection over that.

</comment><comment><USER7> 1\. The company's stats backend was pwnd [http://www.wooyun.org/bugs/wooyun-2015-099350](http://www.wooyun.org/bugs/wooyun-2015-099350) It has far less MAU than 270M. In fact it has only less than 10k DAU.

2\. The way it works is by uploading everything under /data/misc/wifi/wpa_supplicant.conf to its server. See analysis here [http://www.zhihu.com/question/23865652](http://www.zhihu.com/question/23865652)

3\. It's totally scamware & spyware.

</comment><comment><USER8> Assuming this thing runs in the background on your device. What if it captures your login to your company's wifi? Are hackers going to use it to access corporate networks? Is there a way to opt out for certain networks that you access?

<comment><USER9> If your corporate networks security is dependent on wifi passwords remaining confidential you're doing it wrong.

Password re-use by employees who use this app is the real risk IMO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> 1) Set up "secure" hotspot in high-traffic area that hoovers everyone's data, attempts to hack any file shares, etc.

2) Put credentials in Wifi Skeleton Key.

3) ...

4) Profit!

<comment><USER11> You shouldn't be trusting hotspots anyway. No real change from the status quo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> All Windows Phones already come with this: it's called Wifi Sense. Technically it only shares logins with your outlook contacts but in the end it's effectively the same, except Microsoft-Sponsored.

edit: I guess it's only secure until someone jailbreaks WP8.1

</comment><comment><USER13> I think a WiFi sharing social network would be awesome and if it was integrated with Facebook it would be even better. Obviously you can't trust your WiFi to everyone but it's something you already do with friends and family so why not make it as smooth as possible.

I imagine it would be something like this:

The server will not store the key for long, some minutes max and transmission of any data will be encrypted. The owner of the WiFi hot spot will have to approve every request to share his key (individually or all at once). Then the key of the WiFi hot spot will be sent to those that requested it, after that it will be deleted from the server, it won't even get out of the RAM. The people that request the key will be able to do so with just the push of a button (in the ideal case). All this exchange of data, might happen through 3G so it will be as compact as possible (no adds if on 3G, etc).

If in the same physical space this all will be done locally without sending anything to the server. A smartphone app (at most a few megabytes) will be at the center of this. There will also be a desktop client, that allows you to connect less easily but still better than typing. Connect your smartphone to the computer push a button (depending on setting even without this) and connect to the desired WiFi hot spot.

I am one of those persons that feels that everything is invented, but this is something that I feel is lacking.

<comment><USER14> Windows (Phone) has this feature called "Wi-Fi Sense". It shares wifi passwords with your Facebook/Skype/etc friends. I've never used it to share with other people, because not many people have Windows Phone, but it's nice that it syncs passwords between my own stuff.

Looks like this: [http://imgur.com/ShQvqAU](http://imgur.com/ShQvqAU)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Proof, yet again, that end users give zero shits about security.

Just give me my free stuff!

<comment><USER16> More along the lines of that joke about "wifi" being added at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy. [0]

The sooner we stop this nonsense about access to the network being restricted geographically by anything other than a complete lack of infrastructure the better off we'll all be.

People won't want to do stupid things like layering a separate network onto their customers access points ( hi xfinity ) or having open networks ( too many small businesses ) or having wifi passwords on a sign by the barista ( please tip the barista ).

0\. [http://www.daisydowntown.com/blog/2014/2/19/maslows- hierarch...](http://www.daisydowntown.com/blog/2014/2/19/maslows-hierarchy-of- needs-in-the-digital-age)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Why are people investing in this? Everything about it sounds illegal.

<comment><USER18> You think this is illegal in China? I can't think of anything the government would approve of more than a giant database of creds at their disposal...

<comment><USER19> Are you talking about the Chinese or the US government here?

<comment><USER20> Doesn't Google already have this information? Android certainly used to 'sync' your WIFI passwords with Google, in a format that they could decrypt.

<comment><USER4> It does indeed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Why would anyone be dumb enough to invest in this? Even assuming that it isn't shut down by authorities and even assuming that they can stay in the app store when they're so obviously a spammy spyware app, China Mobile controls their oxygen supply. All they have to do is start messing with their radius servers to make life difficult for password sharers. Why would anyone invest in a company that can by shut down by another company on a whim?

</comment><comment><USER22> > so when one user logs into a hotspot, his or her credentials are added to > the database so that everyone else on the app can also use that hotspot

Can it do this without root privileges on Android? Or does it ask the user to enter the password for the hotspot?

</comment><comment><USER23> Security issues aside, how is this an investable business? How is it going to generate 10x+ returns legally?

</comment><comment><USER24> Wow, I have an app that also does this on Google Play. Maybe I should rebrand it and try again...

<comment><USER25> do yours save me from typing my name and room in a hotel? that one seems to also do that.

not that it's something I'd like (as I assume when i type it it goes to their servers so the next person doesn't) but that's what makes it tick from the article

<comment><USER24> Yes. It sounds like that was the linchpin. It was an indie app so we didn't have much of a marketing budget other than producing a basic video. Nice execution. Hats off to them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This app just facilitates short-sighted abuse of commercial infrastructure while opening clients up to a massive security vulnerability. Doesn't surprise me one bit that this comes from China. They have a culture of extreme self- interest with complete disregard of the implications against other people or even themselves long term.

<comment><USER27> This sounds like 90% of the world. Not just China.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> For a similar US company that is more focused on the B2B side, check out Devicescape.

</comment><comment><USER29> If everyone has Skeleton Key, no-one has Skeleton Key.</comment>


Announcing Nylas Mail 2.0 - <AUTHOR> https://blog.nylas.com/announcing-nylas-mail-2-0-de1ccb9dd4b3 <comment><USER2> Okay, something is weird. I have Outlook.com email with custom domain (previously Windows Live Domains). These kind of accounts had problems with Nylas since forever (see my old GitHub issue - [https://github.com/nylas/nylas- mail/issues/859](https://github.com/nylas/nylas-mail/issues/859)). I have tried adding it to new Nylas app with Office 365/custom IMAP with no success.

The weird thing is, in last 15 minutes someone from USA - AWS instance, 22.214.171.124 - tried to connect to my account. This app is said to sync locally, right? But I see no attempts from my IP in Outlook.com panel, but about ten from AWS. All of these started when I installed Nylas and tried to configure it; remaining logins logged by Microsoft are 100% by me (web client, iPhone Mail.app). WTF?

edit: [https://a.pomf.cat/gxhabs.png](https://a.pomf.cat/gxhabs.png)

2nd edit: According to [https://github.com/nylas/nylas- mail/issues/3405#issuecomment...](https://github.com/nylas/nylas- mail/issues/3405#issuecomment-294864609) someone else is unable to connect with GMail because of Nylas servers throwing HTTP 502. Does it sync locally or through Nylas' AWS instances? Is this why I can't configure my account with IMAP?

<comment><USER3> It syncs locally by also can make server requests for things like snoozing/reminders/send later.

Not sure on the exact details of your account but if you send a quick note to email@example.com one of our engineers can look into it.

<comment><USER2> Is it possible to turn it off? I don't want these, but looks like I have effectively given you password to my email account. Can you remove it from your database?

<comment><USER3> Yep just email that address and we'll take care of it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been looking forward to trying this out, no good mail clients on Linux

</comment><comment><USER2> Stuck on "Still trying to reach Nylas..." ([https://a.pomf.cat/sxiair.png](https://a.pomf.cat/sxiair.png)). Good.

edit: Looks like it tries to fetch some PNG file, but all it gets is HTTP 502, I guess. ([https://a.pomf.cat/xiblzy.png](https://a.pomf.cat/xiblzy.png))

<comment><USER3> Sorry-- our servers are getting hammered right now. Team is working on a fix.</comment></comment>


Pirates of Silicon Valley - a 1999 docudrama - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xflXMZL2stU

<comment><USER2> I love this movie. Really, I watch it for motivation, frequently. The only problem I have with it is Henry Edward Roberts character. Ed was not given the credit he deserved in the movie. He comes off as a buffoon in the movie.

In reality, he is more of an entrepreneur at the end of the startup cycle looking to move on to another business.

</comment><comment><USER3> Oh damn it, I started watching it. For like the 10th time. I had work to do, you know!

</comment><comment><USER4> Great movie.

<comment><USER5> Love this movie :)

Sadly I don't think it was released outside of the US. I wanted to buy a legit copy only its not available in Australia. Stupid dvd zoning. I had to get a US copy shipped here, rip it and strip of the zone encoding just to be able to watch it on a dvd player. Talk about making it hard for people to give you money.</comment></comment>


Hoaxy: A Platform for Tracking Online Misinformation - <AUTHOR> http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.01511 <comment><USER2> [http://www.snopes.com/](http://www.snopes.com/) is also such a platform

</comment><comment><USER3> I think the issue is that many times, 'misinformation' boils down to perspective and personal views, unless it's a straight fact, which is almost never the case.

It ends up being used as a way to stifle dissenting views and control the narrative.</comment>


BerliOS has been OWNED - <AUTHOR> http://www.berlios.de/

<comment><USER2> Dang. Berlios is what hosts ncurses-ruby, something i use a lot, although they should have created a gem of it.

</comment><comment><USER3> I love how crackers try to justify what they're doing as a public service. Yes, they're absolutely right when they say only competent people should admin servers, but there are more polite ways to inform the server admins. This is just typical dick-swinging.

<comment><USER4> Sure, there are more polite ways, but this is the most effective one.</comment></comment>