Those Aren't Fighting Words, Dear  - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02love.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all <comment><USER3> I like to call it a "midlife adjustment" and there is not a person alive who gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level - it really is the transitioning from the phase of life where everything points up to that in-between phase where things slow down, age starts to show itself more, and our mortality looms nearer. We all react to it differently but _react_ we do, unless we are beyond feeling.

This piece nicely sets forth how a wife stuck through a pretty tough time with a husband who was adjusting pretty badly. It is a great story of how patience, perseverance, and wisdom can see us through trials. The lesson is that grace should control and guide us where our emotions would lead us to do things we might otherwise regret.

<comment><USER4> I think it's a bit of a stretch to state "not a person alive who gets to that age..." - The whole mid-life crisis thing is a function of societies that are a little higher up in Mazlo's hierarchy.

I assure you that the significant part of humanity that is trying to track down enough food, clean water, or even a warm place to sleep each night - <USER2> alone adequate medical care or education, doesn't suffer from ennui. They, of course, suffer from hunger, thirst, and exposure - problems, yes, but they certainly have clear priorities.

Sometime happiness suffers when we are provided everything that we need, and we end up asking ourselves, "Isn't there more?"

<comment><USER5> (Maslow's.)

Yes, very true, and perhaps a great illustration of how we humans haven't yet evolved quite enough to deal with the very different challenges the affluent nations deal with so soon after we as a species were struggling for survival.

<comment><USER6> You can't evolve out of the meaning of life.

<comment><USER7> Care to make your point a bit more explicit?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could be a good lesson.

I really just want to say: "that was nice to read".

<comment><USER9> > I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it > could be a good lesson.

...How does it apply to hackers?

Either I'm extremely dense, or everyone is projecting their own opinion on your vague comment.

<comment><USER10> My take on it is that the author had a system that wasn't working how she wanted it to (her marriage), and rather than take the obvious approach to the problem (discussion / argument), she understood the system well enough and found an unconventional approach that gave her the results she wanted. Maybe that's a little bit of a stretch?

The story is also about understanding what's valuable in life, which folks at HN usually express in their desire to make a living on their own terms outside the traditional workforce. In marriage or employment, finding and keeping those things that are worth having is often really hard work, but if you're lucky it pays off in the end.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> May 2010 follow-up interview to this 2009 essay by Laura Munson from the Guardian:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura- mun...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-munson- interview)

Laura Munson's new book:

[http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You- Think/dp/0399156658...](http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You- Think/dp/0399156658/)

<comment><USER12> I think the Guardian article was especially insightful because Munson reveals an important reason why her husband "turned around":

 _"His sister got cancer and her husband had just left her and she had five children and she actually died last 4 July."_

I know why his brother-in-law left his sister, but this event might make him more hesitant about leaving his own wife.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Who knows how to make love stay?

"When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us. When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual failure every relationship we enter." -- Tom Robbins, "Still Life With Woodpecker"

<comment><USER14> For me, the harder problem is finding a partner who will not detract from my substantial existing fulfillment.

<comment><USER15> How do you mean, exactly?

<comment><USER16> my guess: (s)he loves <cars>, but all the (wo)men (s)he dates hates <cars> and if (s)he married that (wo)man (s)he'd have to give up <cars>.

Replace <cars> with the tag of your choice :)

(^ one of the biggest crimes of political correctness: making everything so damn hard to read and full of strange punctuation!)

Either that, or (s)he is typically extremely busy with very fulfilling things, and is looking for either a similar partner or a partner who is simply unusually low maintenance.

<comment><USER17> I've run into that dating. The conversation was along the lines of...

"So, it's paid off since I bought it with cash. The insurance is cheaper than an economy car. The parts are as cheap as economy cars, save for wear parts. It actually gets pretty decent mileage to boot. Why would I have to get rid of it?"

"You just would, that's why!"

I had hung out with her for two weeks and apparently her idea of a happy marriage was giving up everything I have, selling all my furniture (despite the fact my apartment has won AWARDS), and buying whatever she fancied - presumably an over-sized home not within walking distance of anything, that'll be a maintenance nightmare after 20 or 30 years, and a crossover.

I'm all for compromise, but some gals demand total capitulation instead.

<comment><USER18> > despite the fact my apartment has won AWARDS

Okay, seriously, how do you win awards for an apartment? That's got to be an impressively flexible come-back for an awful lot of relationship-related comments.

<comment><USER19> I'm interested as well, and also in seeing pictures - no award-winning goes without pictures so there have to be some.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Sometimes it seems the quality of HN is deteriorating, and then a submission like this, which you'd think one has to be at least 35 to even understand, gets 149 points. Pretty amazing.

<comment><USER21> This is because relationships are paramount to programming languages, start- ups, gadgets, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm not going to comment on the lady - but there's one thing I wish; to hear the other side of the story.

</comment><comment><USER23> I thought that story was _awesome_ , though I completely respect those who hated it. Here is whyb (somewhat stream of conciousness... sorry...):

Long term relationships take work and commitment, including possibly long stretches of unhappiness. This article celebrates working toward something besides "fun".

A rewarding life is NOT the same as being happy all the time. If you ask me, focusing on happiness above all else is tantamount to addiction, and really bad. ("Self overcoming" is what makes a rewarding life, and self overcoming almost requires suffering; I study math -- suffering is fun once you get the taste...)

She wouldn't take the blame for his crappiness, and decided to be OK with herself; she practiced this OK-ness even when it didn't come naturally.

I hate to be all curmudgeonly, but between the 1960s and Freud we have adopted a VERY self indulgent ideology which makes me want to puke. (And which has probably fueled a big part of the conservative movement, unfortunately...)

I may have other less easily expressed reactions that are coloring my overall gestalt, but I think those sum it up.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm surprised no one has brought up mental illness. There are very few of us who will make it through life without some kind of depressive episode. Some of use internalize it, some of us lash out and destroy the things around us.

I think the author knows very well the character of her husband. She realized that these feelings and changes in him were out of character, and that other things in his life might be causing him serious distress. She was patient, and gave him the chance to leave if he really thought he needed to, and the time to get his head straightened out. What she didn't do was respond to his lashing out, making the situation worse.

As I see it, she stuck by her husband as he was having a hell of a time in his life. She knew the kind of man he is, and that he'd be back.

</comment><comment><USER25> So I took this advice a bit too literally when this article came out, and was in denial about all the tantrums my wife was throwing. This weekend, she told me she's hired a lawyer and moved out with my daughter. Should I "buy it" yet?

<comment><USER26> To whatever extent this article had any advice, it was not to ignore the tantrums, but to ignore the attacks. The author responded to "I don't love you any more" with "what can we do to make this better for you?"

If you took a similar approach, refused to engage in the personal attacks, repeatedly tried to find common ground and ways to fix the problems, and your wife still left... well, you did everything you realistically could. Your focus now should be on maintaining your relationship with your daughter, IMO.

<comment><USER25> That's probably the most encouraging advice I've gotten. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I'd like to make a thoughtful comment, but I'm struggling to get past the phrase 'age-appropriate'. As someone who has never been 'appropriate' to their chronological age in any respect, it always comes across as reductive, patronising and ultimately dehumanising. It seems to me to be the product of a worldview which sees children not as distinctive individuals with unique preferences and aptitudes, but as mere larvae passing through 'developmental stages'. I consider it an affront to the dignity of all children and my teeth are set on edge every time I hear it.

OK, <thoughtful comment>.

If I expressed my deepest feelings to someone who was close to me, the most painful response I could imagine is "I don't buy it". If they spat at me or hit me, then at least they heard me, took me seriously and emotionally engaged with what I am saying. To hear "I don't buy it" is to be told "I don't recognise your feelings as valid", it is to be told "you don't matter, I'm the one in this relationship that decides what we feel about things". To hear "What can we do to give you the distance you need" is to be told what you need, not asked. When he said "I don't like what you've become", she didn't want to hear what he didn't like, she didn't want to engage, she didn't even acknowledge what he was saying, she just invalidated him and shut the discussion down with "I don't buy it".

There's a good chance I'm being grossly unfair, but I can't see anything but an emotionally manipulative woman, breaking the spirit of her husband by refusing to engage with him emotionally. I see a man who has had his every thought and feeling dismissed for years, who has become scarcely able to recognise his own emotional autonomy. When he says "You're going to make me go into therapy. You're not going to let me move out. You're going to use the kids against me.", I don't see paranoia, I see a man who had a damned good idea of what he was in for; Her only statements of any real meaning were to tell him "What can we do to give you the distance you need, without hurting the family?", "[do] anything but hurting the children and me" and "It's not age-appropriate to expect children to be concerned with their parents' happiness. _Not unless you want to create co-dependents who'll spend their lives in bad relationships and therapy._ ". They all sound an awful lot to me like some things you might say in order to manipulate someone into not leaving by using their kids against them.

Of course we know nothing about their relationship prior to this incident and very little about it since, but I find what we do know to be deeply troubling. It seems to me that every aspect of this situation screams "PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST". She seems completely unable to recognise the thoughts and feelings of others, and seems to simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility that there is an objective reality beyond her own imagination that she is unable to control. As I said, I could be being grossly unfair, but everything about this story sits badly with me and I find it deeply worrying to see this woman unquestioningly lauded as wise and enlightened.

</thoughtful comment>

<comment><USER28> I think she's lauded as wise because this story gives the reader an easy bromide disguised as deep understanding.

She never once in this story actually sat with her partner and tried to understand what was going on with him. She gave him an answer, made a few demands, and flat out refused to listen.

Reading this story broke my heart. I couldn't believe her utter weakness and lack of compassion.

The truth is scary. Love is scary. Change is scary. These things loom over our comfortable lives threatening to expose us to the changes going on outside our realm of control. You don't own your lover, and the truth may one day be that they're unhappy, and need to leave. That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be.

If this is indeed a true story, I sure hope the guy has since managed to find a good divorce attorney.

ADDITION:

        I'd finally managed to exile the voices in my head
        that told me my personal happiness was only as good
        as my outward success, rooted in things that were
        often outside my control.

This is a huge red flag.

Whenever some says that they've "finally managed" to fix themselves in some major way, be very suspicious. It doesn't work that way. We keep our patterns, and they find new ways to manifest until we learn through repeated painful experience to turn them to our benefit some of the time.

There is no switch.

Her happiness was _still_ clearly very much rooted in her "successful" marriage, her ability to provide a traditional two-coupled-parents environment for her children, etc.

The first step to Happiness is admitting one's neuroses.

The second is admitting that the first didn't make them go away.

<comment><USER29> _She never once in this story actually sat with her partner and tried to understand what was going on with him_

Of course she has tried that and of course he couldn't explain what was wrong. It is crystal clear that the man wasn't clear on what he thought should be changed. As jjames points out in another comment, his life involves much more than just her. This woman recognized that, accepted that and gave the man room to work out his problems, because those problems did not (primarily) have to do with their relationship.

<comment><USER30> Clearly this story wasn't the whole story. If you read the followup article, you learn that his business recently failed, and he had lost his sense of self-worth - all of which the wife was aware.

<comment><USER28> So why wasn't she helping him to process this pain and mourn his losses rather than simply ignoring his pleas for help?

"Giving someone space" is not the same as just telling them you don't believe them and turning away from them.

I remain convinced that she's a narcissistic person who doesn't know what love is, and this story is heartbreaking for all the wrong reasons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> That's a very Zen way of dealing with conflicts. The level of self-control to pull this off is admirable and something to learn from.

</comment><comment><USER32> personally, I think that the husband was lucky to last as long as he did without succumbing to torpid disillusionment with himself, his potentialities, and his powers. I'm so jaded and disgusted with myself most of the time that I tend to not trust anybody who doesn't seem to want to blow their own brains out.

</comment><comment><USER33> I read this a little differently. I think she made a smart bet.

It seems to me he was having an affair. Knowing that most relationships don't work out, she positioned herself perfectly to pick up the pieces when it failed.

</comment><comment><USER34> Would that we all had someone in our lives who knows and loves us so well.

It's not always easy to pinpoint what exactly is it that makes us unhappy. And according to Daniel Gilbert (seriously, check out his book and TED talks), we sort of suck at predicting what _does_ make us happy.

And usually, we know what's better for ourselves than anyone else. That's because we have more information about ourselves than anyone else, of course. But it's easy to get lost in the echo chamber of our minds, and that's when a second opinion becomes priceless.

</comment><comment><USER35> Steps to writing an annoying article: 1\. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a child. 2\. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough. 3\. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer.

<comment><USER36> > _1\. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a > child._

She was using that as a metaphor. Using an image with which everyone (or at least most people) can identify. Being angry/upset with yourself (or just your situation) and taking it out on others is not something that is restricted to childhood. The metaphor works better in terms of describing the method of dealing with it (i.e. ignoring it, and not allowing the other person to drag you into what is _their_ personal problem).

> _2\. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as > if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough._

When people speak of physical abuse, the usual retort is that one is 'tough enough' to defend his or herself, even if the reality is that people in abusive situations are really emotionally weak/co-dependent. Most people that are trying to 'prove' to others that they are impervious to abuse are usually trying to display something that can be seen/evaluated by others so as to be interpreted as 'proof.' They are not usually thinking about the flip-side (the implication that people that do 'allow' themselves to be abused are lacking these traits).

> _3\. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming > that you refuse to suffer._

This was the only part that I found mildly annoying. She repeats "I will not suffer," while talking about the ways in which she was suffering, but trying to get on with her life. It may be a good internal motto to use in such times, but in reality she _was_ suffering.

<comment><USER37> Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then.

Also, from the follow-up article: "I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year- old, and I realise my career is done with and I have to find something else" - not sure if that is really a victory to be proud of?

<comment><USER36> > _Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then._

When we use car analogies to describe tech issues, does that mean we are calling those issues cars? You can try to read into the subtext of _why_ she used that metaphor all you want, but you can't say with 100% certainty _why_ it was chosen, other than to illustrate the point.

> _"I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year-old, and I realise my career is > done with and I have to find something else" - not sure if that is really a > victory to be proud of?_

How so? I think that the 'victory' here is not of her over her husband, but of her over herself. The 'easy answer' to the problem would have been to kick her husband to the curb for being an ass (and basically abandoning his family to have his mid-life crisis). She stuck with it believing that he would sort out his issues in his own time. Sticking to her guns while feeling abandoned by her husband is the real 'victory' here.

As far as him coming home with his tail between his legs? He spent the entire summer basically trying to come to grip with reality. It was really his attachment to the past (and to wanting things to 'stay the same') that caused his 'defeat.' He was battling himself and his own misconceptions about how his life was going to be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I liked the article. But whether or not I agree with the author is irrelevant. What strikes me here most is to see things like this discussed in depth and intelligently in Hacker News. That's magnificent and somehow heart-warming. I have to say: I love this site :-)

</comment><comment><USER39> I forwarded this to my (soon to be ex-) wife. I wish I had such an understanding partner...

<comment><USER40> I think that wishing for it to be one way is what makes it not work. This woman's husband didn't want an understanding partner, he wanted a battle. And she didn't want to understand, she just wanted to not get caught up in it herself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> >The dreams you set out to achieve in your 20s — gazing into each other's eyes in candlelit city bistros when you were single and skinny — have for the most part come true.

It sounds like _her_ dreams were achieved. His dreams we never hear about.

</comment><comment><USER42> I find it an interesting comparison with the "I want to quit my job" feeling.

Except I'm stonewalling myself because I know the unhappiness is in my head and that with a change of opinion it wouldn't exist anymore.

</comment><comment><USER43> fantastic article. wise woman.

</comment><comment><USER18> I remember when this came up on Reddit a year ago.

Summary: hold on to your man by emasculating him, then wait for enough depression to kick in that it suppresses his urge to improve his life.

Also, I'm going to guess that most of her fond remembrances of romantically planning their future together primarily reflect what she hoped for, not what he did.

In other news: people who write long-winded, self-obsessive essays and books tend to be self-absorbed.

<comment><USER44> He wasn't emasculated. He was free to _actually_ leave any time he wanted. She just called his bluff and he turned out to be unwilling to _really_ go through with it.

<comment><USER18> I think he'd been emasculated for quite some time. As others have mentioned, she views and treats him as a child having a tantrum.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> "Go trekking in Nepal. Build a yurt in the back meadow. Turn the garage studio into a man-cave. Get that drum set you've always wanted. ..."

Is there anyone else who finds this a very condescending and nasty thing to say? This ought to sound to her husband like fighting words.

<comment><USER46> When you're married and have the feelings like the husband did in this story it will make a lot more sense.

<comment><USER18> If there's ever a time when my wife distills my desires to building a "man cave" or "trekking" that's when I know I married the wrong woman.

<comment><USER44> Ok sure, "man cave" is a dumb phrase, but how do you know the husband hadn't regularly _talked about_ trekking in Nepal or converting the garage?

<comment><USER46> "Man Cave" is married-folk slang for "some personal space where I don't mess with your stuff."

Have a gaming rig on a table that your wife can't go near? That's a man cave. How about a car project in the garage? Fishing boat out back? Electronics bench full of parts and tools?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Heh, that article is crazy. Have fun with your 20 acre plot 3 kids and pony... Who wants to get married in today's society? Your kids will just send you to an "adult home" anyway. I'd rather be driving a high end bimmer/mercades and be dating a woman 20 years younger than me when those years come around. The "American dream" is a fabrication, have fun with your 20+ years of kids leaching off you, 9-5 job, and all. How about legalizing prostitution, drugs, getting rid of speed limits, compulsory education (12 years of brainwashing) -- then there might be some fun.

</comment><comment><USER48> Ugh. This is like reading about someone training a dog not to crap on the floor.

</comment><comment><USER49> She's a megalomaniac and he's a baby. I'll bet they both had extremely dominant mothers.</comment>


Garfield phones beach mystery finally solved - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47732553 <comment><USER2> _Climbing down the slippery rocks to the cave, the team spotted remnants of a destroyed shipping container - and soon, between the rocks, Garfield phones - in a more complete condition than any found before them._

This sounds like a Nancy Drew book in real life.

</comment><comment><USER3> > The media attention on the new campaign, however, drew the eye of a local > farmer who remembered the first téléphone Garfield appearing after a storm > in the early 1980s, when he was a young man.

> He also knew the location of the container - in a secluded sea cave > accessible only at low tide.

So they've been dealing with this mystery for almost 40 years and this guy knew where the problem was coming from the entire time?

<comment><USER4> It's been my experience that a lot of seeming mysteries are solved only by the person with the mystery talking to the right person. And the right person could be anyone with an observation.

It happens in Engineering all the time too, where you talk to the one user in ten-thousand who happens to have a keen eye for the exact sequence of events on the display, and their careful recitation of the sequence of frames on the display is enough for you to piece together the system state at the time of a failure.

It's rare that engineers talk to users, and it's probably equally rare for environmentalists to talk to individual farmers looking for information.

<comment><USER5> It's not even "one in ten thousand", I think more often it's just that the people who _don 't know_ assume that _no one else_ knows either and don't bother properly asking around.

<comment><USER6> Or the people that know think the reason is obvious and will probably get fixed soon so don't brother reporting the issue and what they believe is causing it

<comment><USER7> Or every time we ask users we get "just fix it" and "I click the thing and it breaks" style answers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Suprised there was no mention of the Lego spill: "Nearly 4.8 million Lego toy parts fell overboard from the Tokio Express container ship in a storm off Land's End on 13 February 1997." [https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28582621](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28582621)

<comment><USER9> For Lego aficionados, that's about $499,207.34 worth of pieces.

<comment> core-questions So $100 raw plastic cost then

<comment> crooked-v Manufacturing cost for Lego pieces is relatively high, though, given the effort they put into keeping precise amounts of 'clutch power' for every brick.

<comment><USER10> This becomes clear when you use any of the cheaper alternatives.

<comment><USER11> Yeah I tried it once, buying off-brand legos from Ebay. It's truly night and day in terms of quality.

<comment><USER12> Actually they're getting much better. I bought some off-brand Lego from aliexpress a couple of years ago, and apart from the lack of branding I can't tell the difference, even after two years of use.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, the reviews say offbrand tires are absolute crap but that is only element that has noticeable quality issues. Not so sure about electronic/pneumatic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> We have something like that in Brazil, but with cans of weed floating at the beach through the whole summer.

[http://www.bemsaopaulo.com/summer-of-the- cans/](http://www.bemsaopaulo.com/summer-of-the-cans/)

<comment><USER15> > cans of weed

By which, the OP means "marijuana".

<comment><USER16> > "marijuana"

By which, the OP means "WEED".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> This post just makes me sad. It is a sad reminder of just how long lived the plastic in our oceans is. And as a species we are still not doing enough to stop this.

<comment><USER18> Is it far fetched to think that plastic is one of the most damaging inventions of the 20th century? I imagine it will be affecting us for hundreds of years. Banning single use plastics seems like a no brainer to me at this point.

<comment><USER19> I think plastic is a true miracle invention. Aviation, medicine, technology, there probably isn't an area where we haven't benefited from this great material. Used properly, it's not a problem.

What is damaging is the brute ugliness of modern materialism. We don't just use plastic to manufacture surgical tools, we use it to make plastic toy that we ship halfway round the world to give away with an equally repugnant 'happy meal' from McDonalds. Then we throw it away (hopefully into a bin) along with all its plastic wrapping.

That's not to say I don't agree with you - I massively support a ban on throw away plastic too (and more). I just think we need to be careful about demonising plastic as a material.

<comment><USER20> Alternatively, ban non recyclable/biodegradable garbage. Make the suppliers take back refuse as condition for selling, no longer can suppliers think of the waste as externalised cost.

Quickly, distributor countries would solve garbage problem as every country returns plastic, metal, tires, etc that is not biodegradable/recycable. As we saw, some countries absolutely does not want to deal with the garbage from other countries that goods are shipped to. They know it costs so much to deal with that it's better for other countries to internalise the cost.

You would still have your plastic benefits and without worrying about the impact on environment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> From practical and philosophical points of view, _if_ the container and its cargo are stuck at the bottom of the sea forever, is it really a problem?

Of course, I'm aware that random man-made things polluting the oceans is a bad thing in general, but in this specific case, _if_ the plastic is just stuck there forever, is it still pollution in practical terms? The electronics inside the phones probably won't pass modern environmental standards (e.g. RoHS), so let's forget about the electronics for now and only focus on the plastic.

On the one hand, does the plastic release toxic chemicals in high enough concentration as it decomposes (slowly?)? On the other hand, does the container and its cargo somehow become a new shelter/habitat for certain species of marine life?

<comment><USER22> Should we consider sea snails leaving behind their shells when they die litter?

<comment><USER4> If one beach had a million sea snails leaving shells behind, and the beach were cluttered with them, and it was choking out any other life on the beach, then yeah we would consider that litter.

It's the same as when sea urchins devour whole kelp forests, rendering parts of the sea floor totally barren. One or two urchins aren't a big deal but when they breed without limits they can completely destroy an ocean ecosystem. And so we kill them off when we need to to try to be good stewards of our planet.

<comment><USER22> > If one beach...

The very existence of beaches at all is the result of the overwhelming dead remains of billions of diatoms and crushed shells. I have no doubt there would be a totally different ecosystem if it weren't for their remains.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Garfields are one topic but another one is 500 meter pipes with a diameter of 2 meters.

[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4781126/Beachgoers-...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4781126/Beachgoers- shocked-giant-pipes-UK-shores.html)

<comment><USER24> Yeah but the pipe is all in one piece and is removed all in one go while these Garfield phones will keep showing up possibly forever

<comment><USER25> Well not any more, they go and recover the container and its remaining contents, the ones between the container and the beach will arrive and then no more phones.

<comment><USER26> From the article:

> The container remains inaccessible and it is not known how much of its cargo > is sealed within it.

> In the meantime, both Ar Viltansou and local officials say they will > continue to harvest Garfields from the coastline.

<comment><USER25> Fair enough. It's an engineering problem though right? I read 'inaccessible' as "it would cost too much to get to it" rather than "it's physically impossible to get to it."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> >Since the 1980s, the Iroise coast in Brittany has received a supply of bright orange landline novelty phones shaped like the famous cartoon cat.

>But now, the source of the problem has been found - a lost shipping container.

Isn't that the most obvious?

<comment><USER28> They also found the location of the shipping container, which is impressive

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> This is what the post-humanity planet looks like: broken, dirty novelty phones piling up on a beach for a hundred years.

</comment><comment><USER30> It doesn't really seem like a mystery just the source was found.

The rubber ducky container is also interesting.

<comment><USER31> Indeed, it had to been obvious it was from a shipping container from day one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I'm surprised nobody seem to be curious who manufactured the phones. I was waiting for some reveal: the designer was X, it was made by Y... not the main point of the article, but I'm still curious about it. In some office somewhere there's someone who shipped that container and it never arrived... who's that person? Won't be able to sleep tonight :-p

</comment><comment><USER33> I don't understand how something can be inaccessible in this day and age. Helicopters? Boats? Submarines? Is it really impossible to retrieve the wreckage or just economically impractical?

<comment><USER34> Yes it's physically possible to somehow retrieve and remove the container and phones. It would also likely be absurdly expensive to do so for the gain.

It's likely cheaper, easier, and safer to simply keep picking them up off the beach as they wash ashore.

<comment><USER35> Seems like they should be able to get a team of volunteers together to go to the shipping container and remove the phones by hand so they don't keep going out into the ocean. How hard can this possibly be?

<comment><USER34> Based on the description it sounds pretty dangerous for the limited value gained from doing so. The reporter said they could see the container, but that doesn't mean it's immediately accessible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> i'm originally from about 20km away of that place, I remember in the 80s there used to be kid shoes and whatnot washing ashore from time to time

</comment><comment><USER37> Contents of the article aside, this for me was the hardest to parse headline I've read on HN in a long time!

</comment><comment><USER38> _Since the 1980s, the Iroise coast in Brittany has received a supply of bright orange landline novelty phones shaped like the famous cartoon cat._

...

 _Climbing down the slippery rocks to the cave, the team spotted remnants of a destroyed shipping container - and soon, between the rocks, Garfield phones - in a more complete condition than any found before them._

</comment><comment><USER39> "Guys, I have a prank idea involving phones...hear me out..."</comment>


Show HN: Ephemeral, unsendable, and trackable emails – no downloads - <AUTHOR> https://www.sendpluto.com/?r=YC

<comment><USER2> "unsendable" makes me think that the e-mail cannot be sent, rather than what the service actually offers -- e-mails that can be retrieved AFTER they are sent.

The idea of mutable e-mails scares me a lot, even if they're immutable after the receiver opens them.

<comment><USER3> Haha, maybe I should create an email client that just doesn't work. Then emails would certainly be unsendable.</comment></comment>


The Curse of Information Addiction - <AUTHOR> http://www.geero.net/2008/12/information-addiction.html <comment><USER2> In the past two weeks, I have done a huge amount to increase my productivity and manage my 'habit'. I have tripled my RescueTime (YC W07) productivity score in a matter of days, here's how I did it:

* LeechBlock for Firefox. There's always ways "around" these blocks, but it's more of a matter of disincentivizing the bad behavior, not disabling it.

* Use a feed reeder, _keep it off_.

* Working in an office. I've been telecommute contractor for 6 months now. I recently started working onsite for a company, and it's done wonders.

* Watching the "Productivity for Programmers" screencast at PeepCode. I am very anti-self-help, but this screencast has a lot of very helpful, practical advice rooted in common sense and backed by science.

Most of the advice my wife had been trying to tell me for months, but it took Lars Pind's explanation to really crack through my thick skull. It's not even about going through "the motions" of setting goals and all that. It's more about being able to ask your self - "what am I doing? Is this really productive?" - and being able to know when you're being genuine and when your brain is lying to yourself.

<comment><USER3> I used to think that I need to work in an office is a prerequisite for getting things done, and since becoming an off-site consultant, I've completely changed my mind. I found that the commute does wonders to dull the brain. In addition, while in someone else's office, the environment almost invariably sucks. Lousy chairs, horrible flickering fluorescent lights and no sunlight, nasty cubicles. Then there's everyone who comes by to say something or interrupt me. Horrible.

In my home office, I control the environment. I have an excellent chair, plenty of natural light, and the ability to go to the kitchen to munch on an apple or some other good snack. I don't have to make excuses if I want to go for a run at 2pm.

The major downside of a home office is that I feel like I have to be more productive than the on-site members of my team, and end up putting in more hours. In an office, I watch the clock like a hawk and get the hell out at 6 o'clock sharp, unless there's an emergency.

YMMV, of course. It seems like productivity in an office varies widely from person to person.

<comment><USER2> I probably got lucky. The office space I'm working in is amazing and my office space at home is messy, dark, and disorganized.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> He needs to read with a purpose, as in pick out a goal with some sort of metric (eg learn rails) and work towards it. Time will pass anyway, you might as well have something to show for it.

<comment><USER5> And where/how does one get purpose?

<comment><USER4> I don't know, look to your interests & read to some depth. I happen to like chinese so I'm trying to learn the language as I read about the culture.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like the way pg often uses a computer without internet. In fact, after posting this comment, I'm going to shut down this computer's net access for a bit so I can focus.

<comment><USER7> I read years ago about Jerry Pournelle having a separate computer on the upper level of his home with no internet connection at all, for the purpose of focusing on writing. I thought that was a neat idea, and tried it myself, but eventually started sneaking a wireless laptop with me, and before much longer gave up on it entirely.

It's weird. For years, I really did use computers with no network access whatsoever, and then with some basic telephone-line connections that were usually off, and now with wifi/broadband pretty ubiquitous, it seems unthinkable to get off the network. I feel like something is very wrong here, but... ooh, I just got an email; it must be time again to check to see if I've sold any more albums at CDBaby.com ...

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I enjoy HP's service for this reason. It's a joy reading my online content while riding public transit and I find I can keep my focus and delve as deep as I need to. Sure they are just trying to sell more ink cartridges, ($1500 a gallon- I would too) but in doing so they are giving us a worthwhile tool/service. Here is the link- <http://www.tabbloid.com/>

</comment><comment><USER9> The article is interesting but didn't really explained why "RSS is rotting brain". I don't say it doesn't, but why exactly? Any thought about this?

<comment><USER10> Yeah, as much as I agree that it's important to be aware of the negative effects of having so much information readily accessible, I also think it's important not to forget the positive ones. Sure, it's bad when I find myself checking myself checking my RSS feeds every five minutes instead of working, but when I think about all the interesting, entertaining, and truly useful things I know now that I didn't know about a year ago, I realize I learned a lot of them from reading my RSS feeds.

<comment><USER10> On the other hand, here's a thought about why checking his Google Reader RSS feeds constantly might be rotting his brain: intermittent rewards. Here are some links:

[http://therawness.com/the-compliance-recipe- part-3-intermitt...](http://therawness.com/the-compliance-recipe- part-3-intermittent-rewards/)

>Intermittent rewards are as addictive as crack; human nature makes them impossible to resist.

[http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2007/0...](http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_users/2007/03/is_twitter_too_.html)

>One of Skinner's most important discoveries is that behavior reinforced intermittently (as opposed to consistently) is the most difficult to extinguish. In other words, intermittent rewards beat predictable rewards. It's the basis of most animal training, but applies to humans as well... which is why slot machines are so appealing, and one needn't be addicted to feel it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I know it's screwing up my productivity. I've noticed that when I'm stuck in someplace with no internet, like while riding in a car, I'm much more productive.

Also I second the recommendation for LeechBlock, it's a really great firefox addon.</comment>


Initial success in biologically extending human vision into the near infrared - <AUTHOR> https://experiment.com/u/aAcR2Q

<comment><USER2> Well, the data is very noisy. The main problem is that this data doesn't have a before/after comparison. Is the 850nm light visible now or it was always visible???

It's also very difficult to make a fair comparison. The room must be the same, the light sources must be the same (a new coffeepot with a small led can ruin the experiment, removing a coffeepot because it has recently broken can ruin the experiment).

For a preliminary experiment, the before-after comparison is enough. For a serious experiment you need many voluntaries, compare the before-after signals of them all at the same time in the same experimental conditions, and double blind testing.

There is a small possibility that they are measuring "excitement" instead of light. The subject hears that they are now going to test with very near infrared light. He got exited. They measure that. Perhaps the flash makes a slight sound, perhaps the light operator makes a slight sound. (Perhaps the 850nm flash makes a sound that the other flashes don't make?)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's the frontpage of their experiment: [https://experiment.com/projects/can-we-biologically- extend-t...](https://experiment.com/projects/can-we-biologically-extend-the- range-of-human-vision-into-the-near-infrared)

Fascinating project. I absolutely love what the democratization of experimental science is making possible.</comment>


Mozilla Firefox 4 will be our last big release - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/365602/mozilla-firefox-4-will-be-our-last-big-release

<comment><USER2> But chrome also updates automatically, without asking for user permission. Regardless of you think of that policy, it avoids platform fragmentation. Firefox seems to be headed to a big fragmentation. Can't say that's good news for web designer and frontend developers.

<comment><USER3> Almost all users of Firefox and Chrome are using the most up-to-date versions of those browsers. Firefox updates download in the background and update with a single click. Firefox 5.0 (which will be out not long after 4.0) will have completely transparent addon updating - not even a dialog box.

<comment><USER4> It's presumptuous to say that this is the case for Firefox users. The fact that Firefox requires manual agreement to update means there is fragmentation. Faster updates will only increase that unless it is accompanied by automatic, invisible updates.

<comment><USER5> From <http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>, 87% of users are on Firefox 3.6 or newer, 95% 3.5 or newer and 99% on FF3 or newer. As fragmentation goes, that's not half bad.

<comment><USER6> _From<http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php>, 87% of users are on Firefox 3.6 or newer, 95% 3.5 or newer and 99% on FF3 or newer. As fragmentation goes, that's not half bad._

For reference (according to that page), here are the numbers for each browser & version listed (as a percentage of that browser's share), along with the stable release date (from Wikipedia) for that version:

IE8: 65.3% - 3/19/09

IE7: 24.9% - 10/18/06

IE6: 9.8% - 8/27/01

FF4: 2.3% - x/x/11

FF3.6: 85.3% - 1/21/10

FF3.5: 8.2% - 6/30/09

FF3: 4.2% - 6/17/08

Safari 5: 84.2% - 6/17/10

Safari 4: 15.8% - 6/8/09

Chrome 8: 100.0% - 12/2/10

<comment><USER5> There are some numbers < 0.7% of the market that are not explicitly included on that page. Particularly Firefox 2, which still has about 0.25% of the overall market (0.8% of Firefox), and some older versions of Chrome.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Nice. Google proved you could do the streaming release model, Firefox has seen the light.

This moves the web forward much faster than the 'big bang' style IE releases (sadly they're the ones who need this the most).

<comment><USER8> Firefox has been release streaming for as long as I recall. The only exception was major releases (as in to new rendering models). I'm not even sure Chrome has been old enough to run into this?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Now the question of distros remains. What will ubuntu do? Since they want a distribution that is frozen in time, will they allow updates at all, or create ubuntu-volatile repos, or ...?

Also, what will happen with addons? How can developers track API changes and provide updates in time?

<comment><USER10> Same thing ubuntu does with chromium. As far as I can tell it's a problem already solved.

<comment><USER11> If that means I won't have to muck about with hacks like ubuntuzilla any more, I'll be happy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I don't like that title.

Had me thinking Firefox was preparing to shrivel down under Chrome. I became really, really sad for a minute.

For the last few months I've used Chrome because of it's speed and elegant interface. But I really prefer Mozilla and it's open source approach.

While Google isn't that bad, I feel like I'm doing the evil thing for personal satisfaction. Like I'm slowly entering the dark side.

<comment><USER13> You can use Chromium if the license is what bothers you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Lets see if Mozilla can keep up the pace and lets see if they can push those updates unintrusive enough to keep users from leaving.

</comment><comment><USER15> I hope they do change their general approach and not just the update mechanism. I have been using chrome for a couple of months now and just switched back to firefox to see what the evolution is during my time 'away'.

It's quite a mess, from my point of view... As a webdeveloper the browser is my toolbox and while I do find firebug superior to the chrome development tools, the other things that caught my attention where not so positive... It feels sluggisch, was using 1.3gig of memory with 6tabs open and crashes frequently. But I do admit it feels like coming home a bit so I'm sticking with it and hoping things will be better in the future. I just hope this will end well for firefox.

If not they can always start developing another lean and fast new browser that will rock our worlds and gain populairy fast and change names a few times... (anyone remember phoenix and firebird?)

</comment><comment><USER16> DUPE:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2189121>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2189183></comment>


If you have 90% unit test coverage, you probably have some stupid tests - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/RLuckom/unframed-works/blob/master/sandwich-test.md <comment><USER2> I feel that the post misses one major point in unit tests and coverage: you want to verify your error paths. Without mocks or injection of some sort, how are you to validate your error handling? I'm a big fan of integration tests because they make sure things work. But an integration test will have trouble forcing an error out of a dependency.</comment>


Vulnerability Update: libarchive - <AUTHOR> https://hardenedbsd.org/article/shawn-webb/2016-08-07/vulnerability-update-libarchive <comment><USER2> > Around three months ago, a post was published (mirror) on GitHub's Gist > service. In the report, multiple vulnerabilities against portsnap, freebsd- > update, bspatch, and libarchive were detailed. To this date, FreeBSD has > been silent on official mailing lists.

Why didn't the poster file the bugs in the FreeBSD bug tracker and/or contact the FreeBSD security team? Even posting to the mailing list would have been better than posting on some random github page. I don't think you can fault the FreeBSD people for not seeing some random post online.

<comment><USER3> Have you tried using some of the bug trackers in FOSS? Debian, python, mozilla, freeBSD are both quite a pain to use and most of all, you lose track of thee global picture. Especially when core devs have a tendency to either let the bugs opened or close them for no reasons.

The unsane default of freeBSD are quite known. Having a list of them give the picture.

I actually run FreeBSD to escape systemd insanity. _BSD communities are far smaller than linux one, it is also a little bit «secretive» (compared to all the docs and books) on how to build drivers.

Since the linux ecosystem is having all the «heavy weight» desktop applications and that freeBSD has invested quite a lot in linux compatibility I fear they lack resources to do everything.

But, remember that ubuntu is providing LTS distributions with an amazing number of very used non patched packages.

The state of security in linux/windows/mac OSX/_BSD is a direct consequence of the multiplication of bloatware package that are poorly maintained and sometimes coded.

There will be a time for cleaning.

<comment><USER4> Submitting a Debian bug needs a single email with one required header line, hardly a pain to use.

<comment><USER5> FreeBSD uses Bugzilla, which is a bit more work than that, but certainly nothing beyond the grasp of anyone on HN.

<comment><USER6> ...and significantly easier than the old GNATS-based system that preceded it.

There have been active efforts within the project to make this sort of thing much easier for newcomers than it used to be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If you're interested in securing software update systems, check out The Update Framework. TUF is the only system I'm aware of that has a comprehensive threat model for the problem of securely distributing software updates.

[https://theupdateframework.github.io](https://theupdateframework.github.io)

<comment><USER8> And it has a BSD license, too. Unfortunately it's written in Python. I don't see Python becoming a requirement to update FreeBSD.

<comment><USER7> There is also a BSD-licensed version that we wrote in Go: [https://github.com/flynn/go-tuf](https://github.com/flynn/go-tuf)

<comment><USER9> But then you would have to ship and support a go compiler with base, which is a similar problem but easier to overcome.

<comment><USER7> Or ship compiled static binaries.

<comment><USER10> This would be more feasible, but we'd still need Go in the src tree so users can reproduce them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > The libarchive vulnerabilities could allow a malicious third-party to > distribute update archives that could place arbitrary files on the > filesystem.

Why do people keep doing this crap every time they re-invent the packaging wheel? And it's particularly awful from something purporting to be more secure than vanilla FreeBSD (which generally purports to be "better engineered" than Linux, where sane behaviour for distributing binaries is a long-solved problem).

<comment><USER12> > (which generally purports to be "better engineered" than Linux, where sane > behaviour for distributing binaries is a long-solved problem).

Assuming your "sane behavior" is referencing .deb and .rpm files, both of those let you run arbitrary, attacker-provided shell scripts as root whenever you install, upgrade, or even uninstall a package.

<comment><USER11> But have mechanisms to assure they aren't tampered with in-flight.</comment></comment></comment>


The quiet successes that drive Silicon Valley - <AUTHOR> http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/08/13/the-quiet-successes-that-drive-silicon-valley/ <comment><USER2> When the author revealed that he's invested in one of the companies being profiled, he lost credibility immediately. There used to be a concept called "conflict of interest" that journalists and media paid attention to.

It's especially ironic in this case, given the subject matter. The supposed point of this piece is that some companies are shying away from publicity, yet the article itself seeks to publicize them. It's almost like the humblebrag of publicity: "These guys begged me not to write them up in a national news outlet!"

I'm sure the companies mentioned are interesting, and that the founders deserve the success they've achieved. And the author raises some good points about substance vs. signaling. But the self-interest in this piece is naked and jarring.

<comment><USER3> Stinks for you since such people are in a good (the best?) position to comment. That the disclosure was so naked should make you even more comfortable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The media doesn't generally show as much interest in B2B companies as they do in B2C companies.

<comment><USER5> This is true, but also true because B2B is generally boring. A majority of readers will never use an analytics platform or a sales CRM software.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> How is this anything more than a self-interested puff piece? (As an investor, the founders' success is his success, right?)

The topic is an interesting one, and an article exploring the net impact of under-the-radar companies versus the high fliers on the Silicon Valley, US and global economies, particularly one that presents some data, could be very enlightening.

<comment><USER7> i would argue for the opposite of this article - it serves the public's interest for successful companies to be known. we might want to become customers. we might learn something that applies to our business. it is a public good to know where power and influence lies. and it is good to know so others will compete with them. :)

i think the reason why a lot of firms shy away from publicity is that if you're making money, you don't need people to know about it - can attract competition.

a lot of the publicity heavy firms are profitless - they hope to make money based on users or attention.

<comment><USER6> I don't think you're arguing for the opposite of what I'm proposing and I agree with you. I would just like to see some substance, whether in broad terms of the overall market or a narrower look at specific firms.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It doesn't matter how much money/projected money they made/are going to make. Money talks.

</comment><comment><USER9> Notably, the article didn't state whether EdgeSpring was profitable yet. If its only "success" so far has been its acquisition by Salesforce, that could explain why nobody has ever heard of it.

<comment><USER10> A lot of companies we often hear about aren't profitable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Not so quiet anymore...

</comment><comment><USER12> The quiet succes is B2G. If there was no Government spending and CalPERS gambling, there would be no SV.

A perfect example is the South African who would be a one and done without our Rich Uncle Sam borrowing to invest and subsidize his markets.</comment>


Methods or framework for complex object segmentation - <AUTHOR> We are currently developing a software, where we want to classify food on a tray in canteens from one top image. So where we have issues is, that we need a method or existing framework (not OpenCV, we already using it :) ) to be able to segment out for example touching objects. For example you have a tray and you have different items on it, your soup next to it your main dish, something to drink and maybe 2 snickers, and they all touch each other.<p>What would be your ideas, methods to segment out each object, so that we are able to send it to our neural networks? <comment><AUTHOR> any suggestions?</comment>


Combining all my domains into one, how to keep SEO? - <AUTHOR>

I have a network of websites that all have their own domain. I would like to combine them all into one website using one domain, but how can I keep my SEO? Should I keep the domains? What about all my link building for my old domains? Any help is appreciated. :) <comment><USER2> 301 redirects for all the old links to the new site? AFAIK, Google "understands" 301s, so that might be your best way going forward.

</comment><comment><USER3> A 301 redirect should pass any link juice you've accrued from the old domains to your new domain.

That said, it's better to have multiple domains and attack niches (for example: if you sell office stationary online, it's better SEO to have a website exclusively for staplers and another for pencils and pens instead of lumping it all in one website).

You can go the route of having everything under one umbrella domain, but make sure your website architecture is flat.

P.S. I made some assumptions about your website (since I have no idea what your product or service is), but my advice is applicable to anyone.</comment>


ClojureScript Unraveled - <AUTHOR> http://funcool.github.io/clojurescript-unraveled

<comment><USER2> I've read On Lisp by pg, and I'm passionate about using emacs (still depend too much on vim for productivity), so I'd love to start using Lisp-y languages everywhere. But it seems it's not _main-stream_ [1] enough to have tons of tutorials, books, tools, employees that would appreciate it.. yet.

But I'm getting more hopeful every time I see a new post surface with a new language or tool that is _lisp-y_.

Btw, this is not the first time I'm wondering this, but could I start using something like ClojureScript instead of Javascript and be able to use the libraries I currently use, like I would with coffeescript?

[1]: No something does not have to be main-stream or widely used/acknowledged as good to be good, but you can't deny it helps. I just don't want to spend my time learning something that could become obsolete, (in the eyes of coworkers/employers!)

<comment><USER3> > [C]ould I start using something like ClojureScript instead of Javascript and > be able to use the libraries I currently use, like I would with > coffeescript?

Clojure has an opinionated idea about how data should be handled and changed over time. This interacts very poorly with data binding so if your current libraries are Ember, Angular, Knockout, or the like then the answer is no. You can call into any JS library fairly easily so if you want to use jQuery, d3, three, or whatnot then it's doable but not in the "it's just javascript" way of coffeescript.

On the other hand, Clojure fits into the React model like toothpaste in tubes and the community has switched almost universally (save the Hoplon guys) to one of the React wrappers. I recommend starting with Reagent [1]. Om has more mindshare but Reagent's model is considerably simpler. If you need more structure around the app, check out Re-frame [2]. In either case you want to set up your project with figwheel [3] (lein new figwheel <project>) and add reagent/re-frame as a dependency.

[1] [http://holmsand.github.io/reagent/](http://holmsand.github.io/reagent/) [2] [https://github.com/Day8/re-frame/](https://github.com/Day8/re-frame/) [3] [https://github.com/bhauman/lein-figwheel](https://github.com/bhauman/lein- figwheel)

I encourage you to give the langauge a try but I don't really recommend Clojurescript at work unless you're already working at a Clojure shop. The language is nicer than Javascript and I care enough about that to take a job working in cljs full time but the language isn't mature nor enough of a productivity boost over js (especially babelized js) to justify saddling your company with a niche language maintenance burden when you leave. If you're going to evangelize, I recommend starting in Clojure where the win over Java is much, much bigger.

P.S. I use Vim for everything non-lisp but I use Emacs with Evil mode for lisps. Evil mode is bar none the best vim emulator I've used and is the only one I can stand to use on an extended basis.

<comment><USER4> Thanks for the writeup! I'm currently experimenting with Ring/Liberator on the server side and Mithril on the client, and was unsure whether I should just use ClojureScript or plain JS. I chose plain JS for simplicity, but damn, reagent and figwheel look like a killer combination. To me it seems client side Clojure is a bit harder at first than server side, since most of it has to do with mutating DOM state - do you think thats true?

<comment><USER3> It is difficult, which is why Clojurescript adoption didn't really take off until React (via Om) showed up. The whole point of the virtual dom model is to avoid stateful DOM manipulation and instead have view code that is an idempotent (and generally pure) transformation from app state to virtual dom. This is a great fit for any functional programming language and makes keeping the DOM in sync mostly a solved problem.

I haven't tried Mithril in cljs personally but it fits the model so you should be fine with just writing a wrapper function or macro to save some boiler plate on the cljs to js data structure conversion.

The challenges in the cljs app I'm working on are the same challenges you run into any app: how do you separate concerns, where does state reside, how do you keep it in sync with the server, etc. A problem that's unique to React based apps is how to get data from your app state to a component without higher level components needing to be changed.

My main annoyance with cljs is that rethrowing errors in Chrome swallows the stack trace and core.async wraps everything in a try/catch block. This means that you need to debug by breaking on error, typing `ex.stack` in the console, and reading compiled JS frames to find the source.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This could really do with having someone copy-edit. The constant spelling and grammatical errors make it quite hard to read, unfortunately.

<comment><USER6> The authors said on the mailing list that they're not native english speakers and would love if somebody would help them with that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> How big are the generated js files for clojurescript applications compared to say coffeescript or Dart ? The last time I tried it-- when it was still new , the files were too big to be useful for 3G Mobile devices. Has that changed?

<comment><USER8> If you've been serving jQuery (~30K gzipped) to mobile web applications, ClojureScript has always been a fine alternative. ClojureScript applications start at around 20K gzipped and go up from there.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What book are you reading right now? - <AUTHOR> Looking for something new to read, curious to hear what others are reading <comment><USER3> The Shape of Space: How to Visualize Surfaces and Three-Dimensional Manifolds by Jeffrey R. Weeks

...this one has been a good read so far, but it is quite mind bending, I only read like a half chapter at a time slowly, and then I have to spend some time contemplating.

Cupid's Poisoned Arrow: From Habit to Harmony in Sexual Relationships by Marnia Robinson

...I just finished this one, and it has quite the interesting premise, and 300+ footnotes and references to scientific research, but I don't quite know if I'll be trying it out. The testimonials don't comport with my experiences, but they are somehow compelling. It is worth a read if you are looking for something different, and it definitely has some challenging thoughts to ponder. The main theory is that there is mammalian programming in your brain that releases oxytocin to make you feel good when you touch someone or engage in other bonding behavior. And there is a contrary effect that after orgasm your dopamine levels drop which causes people to get bored with their current partner and seek novel partners (to spread their gene further). The recommendation is to engage in intercourse, but avoid orgasm. And that it takes 2-3 weeks of avoiding orgasm to reset the neurochemistry in your brain, so that you get the blissful effects of oxytocin, without the dopamine depletion of orgasm.

<comment><USER4> Shape of Space is a really neat book.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> "Flash Boys" by Michael Lewis

It's about High Frequency Trading (algorithmic trading) and how the market reacted; and what a few individuals did to solve the problem. It's a seriously addicting book.

<comment><USER6> Flash Boys is a little strange. It's presented as David vs. Goliath, but "the little guy" is J. P. Morgan and Goldman Sachs.

Which is not to say there's nothing that could be done to improve our financial infrastructure, or no problems relating to anything deserving the HFT label - there's plenty of both.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm halfway through the last volume of Proust's In Search of Lost Time, and I admit I'm proud of it. I don't know what can be said in a small space about a novel so large and canonical, but I've deeply enjoyed it. An unexpected quirk of the novel is that though I've been heavily absorbed in it the whole way, and found it moving, funny, and in general a complete literary experience, I can't really recommend it to others without absurd sounding qualifiers, e.g., "As long as you can put up with hundreds of pages on end of detailed descriptions of things like churches, landscapes, flowers, parties, dinners, families, manners, morals, and the like, you'll find it immeasurably beautiful and immediately personally meaningful!" \--where I'd of course have never previously taken that bait.

<comment><USER8> Translation or in French?

<comment><USER7> I hoped my French would be up to Proust, but sadly it wasn't, and I didn't want re-learning French to be an impediment to the enjoyment of the story. So I've read the Enright versions.

<comment><USER8> Ok. I know no French at all (il y a un poisson dans votre bibliotheque) but that novel is something I've been interested in trying. Maybe I'll give that a shot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Recently finished Robert Cialdini's _Influence: Science and Practice_ , a great horrifying psychology book. Now I've started Iain Banks' _Excession_ , giving his Culture universe another go. ( _Player of Games_ was good, but not great.)

<comment><USER10> > Influence: Science and Practice, a great horrifying psychology book.

What do you mean by horrifying?

<comment><USER11> It's more or less a guide book on how to get people to do things you want them to do, especially in respect to spending money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> "Zebras don't get ulcers" by Robert Sapolsky [ [http://amzn.to/1kFszdH](http://amzn.to/1kFszdH) ] Great book on stress, it's evolutionary role and how it's screwing us up now, in the modern environment that's quite different from our evolutionary past.

"Brain Rules" by John Medina [[http://amzn.to/UCgCPG](http://amzn.to/UCgCPG)] John, a molecular biologist, looks at things such as health and cognitive development and performance of kids and adults from an evolutionary perspective. He highlights problems with our approaches to work and study, how these are at odds with the way our brains evolved to work and what we can do about it. Great collection of actionable advice backed up by current research. See more at [http://brainrules.net/](http://brainrules.net/)

"The world until yesterday" by Jared Diamond [http://amzn.to/1AAJjNL](http://amzn.to/1AAJjNL) Great book on how "traditional" societies handle trade, war and interpersonal conflicts. Lots of thing to consider taking on board in "modern" societies - such as restorative justice.

"The Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" by Oliver Burkeman [http://amzn.to/1rITiKX](http://amzn.to/1rITiKX) Great overview of pitfalls that "positive thinking" approach brings and how one can start employing alternative ways of attaining happiness.

</comment><comment><USER13> Grimoires: A History of Magical Books Which is about the rise of Christian conversion and the loss (destruction) of or condemnation of older natural pagan healing practices and the manuals or compilations which held that knowledge... burning of books through the millenia which took with it history and culture. From antiquity/pre-history to medieval ages to the Spanish Inquisition to modern times, I've learned so much and I'm not even half-way finished. Usually this sort of thing is extremely hokey and superstitious, except this book is 20% citations, sources and bibliography, further reading suggestions, and historical references. It focuses on the actual history of magic (be it Kabalistic or Enochian) instead of trying to legitimize it. In fact, it quite debunks "magic".

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (Edward FitzGerald's translation) After much study and reading multiple translations of this book, I'm currently reading one quatrain each day and committing it to memory. I so far cannot help but think about each throughout the day, often reciting the day's rhyme in an applicable situation (that no doubt will arise) much to the delight and enlightenment of others.

</comment><comment><USER14> Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software by Charles Petzold.

A great book that explains how computers actually work through number systems and the logic that acts on those systems. You start with the theory behind binary numbers and work your way through electrical circuits, logic gates, RAM, transistors, and the operating system as you build your fundamental knowledge of the inner workings of computers. It's pretty cool.

<comment><USER15> Finished that recently -- great book! His "Annotated Turing" is pretty great too, for machine heads.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> _3D Shape: Its Unique Place in Visual Perception_ by Zygmunt Pizlo. (I studied human gesture briefly in college so it caught my eye at a used book store. Pretty good cognitive science survey so far. Haven't gotten to the CS part yet, but I'm not knowledgeable in computer vision anyway so I couldn't really review it from that perspective.)

 _Quantum Computing and Quantum Information_ by Michael Nielsen and Isaac Chuang. (Beastly book. I actually find it to be a pretty well-written introduction so far, but I just barely have the background to plod through it.)

 _Hocus Pocus_ by Kurt Vonnegut. (S.O. loves Vonnegut, so I'm working my way through his collection. Great so far, though I don't always have the patience for goofy midwestern people humor, despite being a midwesterner myself.)

 _Alif the Unseen_ by G Willow Wilson. (Only a few pages in, but I have a weakness for fantasy-in-modern-day-setting novels and it came on a recommendation from a friend outside of the genre. On a similar note, I _strongly_ recommend both of Nick Harkaway's novels, _Angelmaker_ and _Gone- Away World_ , which I recently reread.)

</comment><comment><USER17> "Good Math: A Geek's Guide to the Beauty of Numbers, Logic, and Computation" by Mark C. Chu-Carroll

"Seven Databases in Seven Weeks: A Guide to Modern Databases and the NoSQL Movement" by Eric Redmond and Jim R. Wilson

"The Joy of Clojure, Second Edition" by Michael Fogus and Chris Houser

</comment><comment><USER18> The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horrowitz.

It's pretty good, though I personally find his view of business management to be dated and out of touch like his view of title inflation vs Facebook's title normalization. Still a good and insightful read.

</comment><comment><USER19> I just finished reading _1984_. You should read it as a warning, not a manual.

</comment><comment><USER20> Just finished reading Hugh Howey's "Dust". The Wool, Shift, and Dust series from Hugh Howey are great dystopic sci-fi. Picked up The Signal and the Noise from Nate Silver as my next book.

</comment><comment><USER21> Consciousness Explained by Daniel Dennett. It's great, now I'm equipped to annoy my friends with arguments like 'dogs are not sentient but computers could be.'

</comment><comment><USER22> Just finished Patrick Leigh Fermor's "A time of gifts" and I can't recommend it enough! One of the best English books that I have read. You will particularly like it if you're interested in European history (political, as well as art history), if you like traveling, if you're into foreign languages and if you don't mind using a dictionary once in a while. I'm really excited to start its sequel "Between the woods and the water".

</comment><comment><USER23> Moby Dick. It's great so far, with wonderfully diverse, dense writing. For some reason I have trouble reading anything but the so-called "literary classics". Perhaps it's the fact that there are so many I could quite literally never read them all in my lifetime, so why waste time with anything else? I understand that's a somewhat flawed argument ("classics" are somewhat subjective), but I cannot bring myself to read much else.

</comment><comment><USER24> Just finished Tower Lord, it's the sequel to Blood Song, by Anthony Ryan. Blood Song stands pretty strong all on its own, I'm not even sure if he ever planned for this to become a series. But book two (Tower Lord) makes it quite clear that this is now a Game of Thrones esq series.

Just started Old Mans War last night, haven't gotten far enough into it to form an opinion.

</comment><comment><USER25> Operating Manual For Spaceship Earth - R. Buckminster Fuller

It turns out Bucky was a lot more than the man who invented Bucky Balls, this book was written in 1971 and is still incredibly accurate.

As an aside, I have been logging the books I read over the past two years here: [http://crismannoble.github.io/tabula/](http://crismannoble.github.io/tabula/)

</comment><comment><USER26> Reading Lawrence of Arabia by Scott Anderson - So far I have got a vivid picture of the events leading up to World War I and how opportunistic the Standard Oil Company were. This is a long book. So, I plan to interleave my reading with either "The Map Thief" by Michael Blanding or "Diary of a nobody" by George Grossmith.

</comment><comment><USER8> _Vanished Kingdoms_ by Norman Davies. History of Europe from the perspective of "countries" that don't exist anymore. Covers medieval kingdoms (Tolosa, Strathclyde, Aragon); more recent countries (Poland-Lithuania, Saxe-Coburg- Gotha); up to very recent times (USSR). Very interesting perspective on history.

</comment><comment><USER27> The Joy of Clojure. I highly recommend it.

</comment><comment><USER28> Gweilo: Memories of a Hong Kong Childhood - Martin Booth

[http://www.amazon.com/Gweilo-Memories-Hong-Kong- Childhood/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Gweilo-Memories-Hong-Kong- Childhood/dp/0553816721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406737887&sr=8-1&keywords=gweilo)

</comment><comment><USER29> Currently re-reading "Escape From Reason" by Francis Schaeffer. Interesting as a history of western thought, even if you don't buy his conclusions. It's concise to the point of terseness, though - you're going to have to fill in some blanks that he doesn't.

</comment><comment><USER30> Patterns of Enterprise Application Architecture. Pretty basic - looking for a good read though and my reading list is running dry. Manning is releasing some good stuff on reactive development that I'd recommend - the Reactive Design Patterns material that is available is super good.

</comment><comment><USER31> I just finished Zero to One.

It's the most thought provoking book I've ever read on entrepreneurship and some of Peter Theil's stories are jaw-dropping. It's the first book that has had me thinking I'm actually a pretty conventional thinker and not nearly ambitious enough.

<comment><USER32> Does it have much content beyond the CS183 class notes on Blake Masters' web site?

I saw a pre-release copy on sale on abebooks but wanted to wait for the reviews.

<comment><USER31> Yes, it's an entire book. It has a better organized superset of the material from the lectures. Many things missing from the lectures are in the book and many things explained briefly in the lectures are explained in detail in the book.

If I can scrounge up the time, I'll write a review soon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> In terms of studying, I am half way in Case Study Research, Contextual design and Constructing Grounded Theory. In terms of leisure, I just finished enders games, and fault in our stars, and I will begin physics of the impossible and the future of the mind

</comment><comment><USER34> Blindsight, by Peter Watts. One of the better sci-fi novels I've read in awhile. Reminds me a lot of Arthur C. Clark in that it successfully strikes a really hard balance between scientific accuracy/feasibility and imaginative storytelling.

<comment><USER35> He's a fantastic author. You picked the right time to read that too, a sequel is coming out in August that continues the story. His Rifters series is well worth reading too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. I can honestly say it's not only impacted the way I think about habits, but it's impacted my actual habits as well, and for the better I might add! Leisure read turned life hack textbook :)

</comment><comment><USER37> Currently reading Cibola Burn - the 4th in the Expanse series by James SA Corey. Very good hard-ish SF series.

I also just finished Creativity Inc., Ed Catmull's book about Pixar. Extremely valuable insights about running a creative organization.

</comment><comment><USER38> William Vollmann's Rising Up & Rising Down is worth your time. If you're inclined towards philosophy of science or epistemology, I'd also recommend R Nozick's Invariances: The Structure of the Objective World.

</comment><comment><USER39> Just started The Everything Store: Jeff Bezos and the Age of Amazon [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17660462](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17660462)

It's been pretty good so far.

</comment><comment><USER40> You mean technical read or leisure read?

Except you consider them to be tech read to be leisure. ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> Looking for a mix of both - most of leisurely reading lately has been tech related but hoping to start reading some more fiction again

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Plowing the Dark-Richard Powers

I have tried to finish this book three times, but I have had to start at the beginning each time. The plot is dense and I can't jump back in after ~150 pages and a month of not reading it.

</comment><comment><USER42> Thinking Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman The Rails 4 Way, Obie Fernandez

</comment><comment><USER43> Morning train ride: The Personal MBA.

Evening train ride: Problem Solving with Algorithms and Data Structures using Python.

Best read in a while: The Obstacle is the Way. Great intro to Stoicism, and only $4.00 on the kindle.

</comment><comment><USER44> Mobile Suit Gundam the origin and the new Bryan lee o'malley novel Seconds.

I'm mainly just reading for pleasure right now. But reading these 2 volumes makes me want more hardback comic books.

</comment><comment><USER45> The Drunkards Walk by Leonard Mlodinow

For the uninitiated he is the coauthor of 2005 edition of A Briefer History of Time. As the title says this is about "how randomness rules our lives".

</comment><comment><USER46> "Idea Man" by Paul Allen

A historical autobiography of Mr. Allen (cofounder of Microsoft). The first half about Traf-O-Data, Basic and founding Microsoft is especially interesting.

</comment><comment><USER47> I am reading "An Introduction to Category Theory", "Haskell Data Analysis Cookbook", and I just finished the sci-fi book "Solaris."

</comment><comment><USER11> Slowly making my way through The Timeless Way of Building by Christopher Alexander. Also reading Essentialism by Greg McKeown, and Influence by Robert Cialdini.

</comment><comment><USER48> "Big Pharma", Ben Goldacre and a collection of F. Scott Fitzgerald short stories including the eponymous "The Diamond as Big as the Ritz".

</comment><comment><USER6> In terms of studying, I'm revisiting Topics In Algebra and starting on SICP.

In terms of leisure, I'm starting on A Mote In God's Eye (Niven/Pournelle).

</comment><comment><USER49> Code Complete. I am only halfway through the book, but the lessons I have learned have already helped me improve how I design and develop software.

</comment><comment><USER50> Weird Life - The Search for Life That is Very, Very Different from Our Own

An easy introductory survey of the different types of life there are and may be.

</comment><comment><USER51> The Passionate Programmer.

I read it in college, and now that I'm reading it again with a full time job, it's amazing how much better it reads.

</comment><comment><USER52> Re-reading what I consider to be the best book on Stoic philosophy - <USER2> from a Stoic: Epistulae Morales Ad Lucilium by Seneca

</comment><comment><USER53> "America is in the Heart", by Carlos Bulosan, an excellent book on the early days of Filipino immigrant experience

</comment><comment><USER54> "What they teach you at Harvard Business School"

A must if you are thinking of taking the plunge from development to doing an MBA

</comment><comment><USER55> Count Zero, by Gibson.

Just finished Neuromancer (for the first time! Bad geek! No cookie!), and plan to read Mona Lisa Overdrive next.

</comment><comment> bra-ket The Regulatory Genome: Gene Regulatory Networks In Development And Evolution, by Eric Davidson

awesome read.

</comment><comment><USER56> Reading two books, We by Yevgeny Zamyatin and The Devil's Cup by Stewart Lee Allen.

<comment><USER22> "The Devil's Cup" is great! He also has "In the Devil's garden", which is quite good as well. It presents the history of food in terms of the seven deadly sins.

<comment><USER56> It's a great book, I think I'm on 5th or 6th reread now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Telluriya by Vladimir Sorokin.

Very interesting, especially with current development in Ukraine.

</comment><comment><USER58> Mastering Web Application Development in AngularJs Little Book on CoffeeScript

</comment><comment><USER59> Shards of Honor by Lois McMaster Bujold and the rest of the Vorkosigan Saga

</comment><comment><USER60> The Rhesus Chart...the latest Laundry novel by Charles Stross.

</comment><comment><USER61> Replay: Ken Grimwood (Second time reading is even better)

</comment><comment><USER62> 1984 by George Orwell, very relevant in current times.

</comment><comment><USER15> Moby Dick - Herman Melville

A Gamut of Games - Sid Sackson

Good Math - Mark Chu-Carroll

</comment><comment><USER63> Rubicon: The Last Years of the Roman Republic

</comment><comment> rafael-rinaldi "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

</comment><comment><USER64> My Venice and Other Essays by Donna Leon

</comment><comment><USER65> Long Walk to Freedom by Nelson Mandela!

</comment><comment><USER66> Bruce Chatwin's The Songlines

</comment><comment><USER67> On Intelligence - Jeff Hawkins

</comment><comment><USER68> Fountainhead

</comment><comment><USER69> how about mathematical universe

</comment><comment><USER70> The Bhagavad Gita: A Walkthrough for Westerners by Jack Hawley</comment>


Ask HN: was anything ever easy?  - <AUTHOR>

Hi HN,
I'm building my first startup, and I have been amazed that every good thing that happened so far, we really had to work hard for. That's not surprising per se, but I was really expecting some breaks here and there. Maybe those are yet to come. Was it always hard from the get go, or does it get better? <comment><USER2> I disagree with the other folks on this page that say that life is suffering and life in five years will be more suffering. That directly contradicts my experience. In many ways my business(es?) are the easiest job(s) I've ever had, and while six years into it I occasionally have a bad day (ask me about Thursday -- still recovering), things are in general on the up and up.

With regards to catching breaks: have you ever heard the phrase "overnight success in only X years"? That characterizes a lot of the breaks which I've personally experienced or had related to me by other people. You sometimes have oh-my-goodness-that's-absolutely-unbelievable-you-are-so-lucky happen to you, but that luck often closely resembles the predictable effects of crystallized hard work.

<comment><USER3> What happened on Thursday?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> God, yes. Things get _much_ easier.

A certain class of startup-building problems gets way easier as you grow and can afford to hire specialized resources.

Get to the point where you can hire a good finance person? Things just got way easier.

Get to the point where you can hire a dedicated HR person? Things just got way easier.

Get to the point where you can hire a dedicated office manager? Things just got way easier.

Get to the point where you can hire a personal assistant? Thing just got way easier.

Beyond that, your life gets way easier psychologically as you start to achieve some success.

Your family and friends stop wondering when you're going to get a real job? Your life is way easier.

Got a big and diverse enough array of clients that losing a big one won't sink the company? Your life is way easier.

Doing well enough financially that you've been able to build up a sizeable nest egg? Your life is way easier.

As for luck, Bo Peabody's 'Lucky or Smart?' is the classic here - it's a great little book. Companies do get lucky break, but they have to be able to recognize and take advantage of luck when it comes.

<comment><USER5> You mistake "externalized" for ease.

Always like lunch w the young republicans in here.

<comment><USER4> That'd be true if you only hired people as good as yourself in all the specialized functions. Instead, you hire people better than yourself. Managing finances, for example, is much easier with a CPA on staff.

What on earth could be the point of the second line of your comment?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A lot of the times, the first step in the right direction is _really_ hard. The kind of hard that makes projects not happen, deals not get signed, relationships not get built, etc.

But every step after the first in the right direction gets easier.

</comment><comment><USER5> No one punches these keys, ~!@#$%^&*()-+, w regularity who embraces ease, as a cartographical matter of fact. I think the root problem you're asking about is how to deal with confusion and overwhelm, rather than difficulty.

</comment><comment> m-i If it were easy, everybody would do it. So far however, only a minority is doing startups. IMO too, if it's getting easier, you are doing it wrong.

</comment><comment><USER5> What's sure is that, to quote DHH, "It never gets easier."

If you feel things are getting easier, than you're doing it wrong.

</comment><comment><USER7> Not only will it always be hard, it will probably get a lot harder too.</comment>


How would you optimally go about verifying Apple's iPhone privacy claims? - <AUTHOR> e.g. how would you ensure personal location & biometric data aren't being sent to apple servers?<p>I don't see any feasible way to do this, especially when iPhones have a secure enclave processor. <comment><USER2> The secure processor only does the IDing function, so while it may be able to compile information on when you used which finger and detail about that print I don't see how it could get to the main processor let alone off the device.</comment>


Why IE9 is a Web Designer's Nightmare - <AUTHOR> http://sixrevisions.com/web_design/why-ie9-is-a-web-designers-nightmare/ <comment><USER3> A very forceful title that is unfortunately backed up by very little in the article content.

The article made one valid observation: the historically extended update cycle for Internet Explorer could be a problem when combined with the incomplete implementations of CSS3 and HTML5.

<comment><USER4> Anything bad in the title or comments about Microsoft or IE results in automatic upvotes regardless of content.

<comment><USER5> Do you have a reason for that observation? I agree with it, but I don't have a good reason. People of pro-microsoft opinion often cite the relatively tiny numbers of Mac, Linux, etc users all the time, especially when giving rationale for staying on Windows, or giving a reason for why Windows attracts the most malware.

But you can't have it both ways: if there's only a tiny minority of non- Windows people, they won't have the juice to generally influence Microsoft- related article's ratings. It you want to have it both ways (Windows dominates to the exclusion of everything else AND those pesky Linux/Mac/whatever users are everywhere, upvoting critical articles), you've got a world view with a very basic contradiction at its core.

So: are there more Mac/Linux/Minix/LoseThos users, or do even the Windows users generally dislike Microsoft?

<comment><USER6> Just because there are far more Windows users than Linux users (not that that has ANYTHING to do with this, lots of Windows users use Firefox for example) doesn't mean the minority group won't be able to massively upvote something out of control. It's not like everyone votes, only a small minority vote - <USER2> guess who are more likely to vote? People who feel strongly (for or against). So if there are more haters than there are people who care to fight the haters, guess who "wins" the vote?

<comment><USER5> I suppose that I'm assuming some kind of proprotionality in upvoting or downvoting, maybe even two varieties of proportionality.

First, I'm assuming that Windows-users are represented proportionally with the general population in the Hacker News population.

Second, I'm assuming that Windows-users and Linux-users would be equally inclined to up- or down-vote any given story. That is, the proportion of voters (your "small minority" that votes) is the same in Windows-users population and Linux-users population.

Your point about Haters vs Haters-fighters is well taken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I stopped reading this as soon as I got to the "negative point" that Microsoft thanked JQuery for supporting IE9.

Libraries such as JQuery of course have to support major versions of all browsers. In particular in this case much of the work was disabling workarounds required in earlier versions of IE!

<comment><USER8> Mozilla actually run the unit tests of most major libraries as part of their regular test suite to make sure that the Internet will by-and-large still work on any new release. So I think the author has a valid point here, new browsers shouldn't break existing libraries this badly.

<comment><USER6> Perhaps, but as the parent post had stated: the changes to JQuery were to get rid of workarounds for past versions of IE. If Microsoft kept bug-for-bug compatible with older versions of IE, they'd be lambasted for that. Now you're lambasting them for actually fixing things. Rock, meet hard place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This article is trash. In one breath, the writer lambasts IE9 for supporting a compatibility mode (while not mentioning that other browsers also have a quirks mode) --- and then goes on to criticize the decision not to support XP, the most insecure operating system on earth. The article is a classic example of what results when you start with a conclusion and work back to the evidence.

<comment><USER10> Windows XP is certainly not the most insecure operating system on Earth.

<comment><USER11> …still in mainstream use.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I am not a fan of IE (6 in particular) but all these bashing of the latest IE 9 seems to not have valid arguments. Modern browsers by whose standards?

</comment><comment><USER13> If you disable JS in all browsers, IE9, Firefox, Chrome and Opera render the page the same. This leads me to believe the web designer is writing brittle javascript somewhere. If you look at the JS, is uses conditional comments based on the version of JS, so I would probably start looking there.

In the end I don't think we can expect to push the web development field and browsers forward without dropping old cruft. From using IE9, it seems they've made a big jump with this version. Unfortunately some old code may no longer work the same, and for that there is the X-UA-Compatible meta tag.

<comment><USER8> Let me answer this as someone who writes non-brittle Javascript code on a 1 year old web app (e.g. I have more unit tests per LOC in my Javascript than most of the Java code that's in the underlying app. AND I run my test suite on all major browsers regularly).

Even if you write solid code, using good architecture, and thorough testing you will find that if it passes on FF then there's a 98% chance it also passes on Chrome and Opera... but maybe a 60% chance that it passes on IE8 (requiring HOURS of work to investigate and fix), and there's some abysmally low rate of success on IE9 from having run these tests against the Beta earlier (we don't plan to announce IE9 support for a while).

So while you are correct old cruft will have to go, brand new solid code shouldn't have to go as well... and that's unfortunately the consequence of IE9. :'-(

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> There has been a notable amount of hate on IE9's lack of XP support, so I thought I'd ask. Has anyone happened to read ~why~ IE 9 isn't supported in Windows XP? People continue to be angry that it's not, but has anyone actually checked why it's not supported?

<comment><USER6> Don't quote me on this, but I thought it was because IE9 made heavy use of Direct2D from DirectX10 or 11 or some such which XP doesn't have access to.

Firefox 4 uses the same Direct2D stuff but has a software fallback. It could be argued that IE9 should also have a software fallback, but they don't.

<comment><USER15> IE9 does indeed have software fallback. You can toggle the setting from inetcpl.cpl -> advanced to disable hardware acceleration if you wish.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The single paragraph that's actually worth reading from this article:

> I quickly downloaded it and began the installation process. That went well. > I then performed the obligatory Microsoft reboot — it's 2011 and the > software still needs a computer restart, but whatever, I'll live — and then > I opened up the browser.

</comment><comment><USER15> If someone has a TLDR version of this article, sharing that is much appreciated. I tried reading this twice, but I am failing to understand the author's point(s) ... What exactly are the problems with IE9?

</comment><comment><USER17> Anyone know a good IE 9 emulator?

<comment><USER18> I run XP on my machines, so here's what I did:

I downloaded the free (and legal) Microsoft Windows 7 enterprise trial ISO:

[http://wb.dlservice.microsoft.com/dl/download/release/Win7/3...](http://wb.dlservice.microsoft.com/dl/download/release/Win7/3/b/a/3bac7d87-8ad2-4b7a-87b3-def36aee35fa/7600.16385.090713-1255_x86fre_enterprise_en- us_EVAL_Eval_Enterprise-GRMCENEVAL_EN_DVD.iso)

I installed the free VMWare Player (actually I already had it but needed to update to support Windows 7 more natively)

[http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmplayer/VMware- player-...](http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmplayer/VMware- player-2.5.5-328052.exe) ( or <http://www.vmware.com/download/player/download.html> )

I used one of the free vmx generator tools to make an image ready for Windows 7 and set the ISO as the CD drive

<http://www.easyvmx.com/supersimple.shtml>

Installed in less than 30 minutes (including VMWare stuff) and then I can test in a pure Windows 7 default environment.

The great thing about the Enterprise trial is it lasts for 60 days, then you can "rearm" (google it) for a couple more times, but even when it's expired, you can use it for an hour before auto-shutdown which is plenty of time to test pages.</comment></comment>


Encryption Backdoors Won't Stop Crime but Will Hurt U.S. Tech - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-12-10/encryption-backdoors-won-t-stop-crime-but-will-hurt-u-s-tech <comment><USER2> This opinion is interesting because it comes from Michael Hayden. He was Principal Deputy Director of NSA 1999-2005 and director of CIA 2006-2009.</comment>