Show HN: Goapp - <AUTHOR> Hello all, I prepared a <i>very</i> opinionated
guideline for how to structure/write a Go web application/service.<p>[Goapp](https://github.com/bnkamalesh/goapp) <comment><USER2> As a SRE I was going to make a comment about missing basic metrics like RED or structured logging but at the end you mentioned you like ELK APM and used it so indeed it's very opinionated as ELK is not a ready-to-use cheap solution people would use as their first choice IMHO.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, I'm using ELK with docker-compose (free community edition). Running it on a 16GB RAM, 4CPU virtual machine. Have been able to use it for all our deployed environments. RPM of 10k+ (maximum), and have been using it for 5+ months now. And we retain data for 30 days

<comment><AUTHOR> Though an FYI, we have only 6 web apps. Maybe that's why it's been working fine for us all this while

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> adding this comment for a clickable link to the repository [https://github.com/bnkamalesh/goapp](https://github.com/bnkamalesh/goapp)

<comment><USER3> Post without a main URL have a penalty here, so it's more difficult that they reach the front page. Next time make a post with an URL and then add a comment explaining that you wrote it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, thank you for that.</comment></comment></comment>


Safari 5 - <AUTHOR> http://apple.com/safari

<comment><USER2> I work for a large newspaper, and we're not very amused by the built-in "Reader" (removes ads and crud, like Readability): <http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html> ... for users, it looks like a good feature though.

<comment><USER3> I'm afraid people will have to deal with the fact that it's the user who controls the browser. You can't just shove stuff down your users' throats — it's their browser.

<comment><USER4> I also want to present the counter viewppoint - [http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/03/why-ad- blocking...](http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/03/why-ad-blocking-is- devastating-to-the-sites-you-love.ars)

Newspapers were dying because nobody wanted to pay for news, which they could get for free at Google News. Newspapers were told to suck it up and instead move online - to an ad supported model. No more ads.

I dont think the newspapers are the bad guy here.

<comment><USER5> Newspapers are dying because they are staffed to heavily, not because people don't pay.

Now look at smaller publications such as Gawker, hyper local news. They are doing just fine.

Wired sold almost as many iPad versions (75.000 at 5USD a pop) as they did paper version since they launched it. Thats excluding advertising.

Clearly there is a market for news. It's just not going to be of the NYT kind.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, good journalism costs money.

To have a staff of correspondents reporting around the world isn't cheap. But I think it's worth it.

I think in order for newspapers to survive, people have to learn that they need to pay. Advertising alone isn't going to pay the bills.

I personally think that charging people money for things on the internet isn't such a crazy idea. ;-)

<comment><USER5> I don't think it's good journalism that cost money but the infrastructure to maintain so many journalists being situated around the world. The question is if this is really necessary. My guess is more and more, no it isn't

Obviously you don't really need a journalist for every newspaper being situated in different parts of the world. I understand why they do it, but the problem is that they are often forced to compete with local citizens with cellphones, twitter, citizen journalism etc.

Most people don't really read news for the good journalism, they read it for the value of reading news.

How well this news is being written is in my mind secondary from that point of view.

But obviously it's not so simple. I just don't buy the argument about good journalism.

<comment><USER6> I agree that twitter and citizen journalism have shown themselves to be quite capable of disseminating information and news.

It's still not quite the same as reading a well written, unbiased, in-depth analysis of a story in The Economist or The New York Times (or even Al Jazeera).

Sure, there's a large market for "news-tainment". But I think there's also a market for high quality journalism.

I'm also tipping that people are more likely to pay (and pay more) for the latter too.

<comment><USER5> I too love well written articles. But it is unlikely a big enough market to entertain that many newspapers.

I do however have quibbles with the idea of unbiased journalism.

Personally I prefer highly opinionated pieces, but that's another discussion :)

<comment><USER7> This is a distressingly common sentiment these days. I can't think of any good reason to prefer opinionated screeds to well-balanced factual analysis. Very often it boils down to "I don't have confidence in news stories to have a 100% optimal distribution and analysis of the facts, so I've decided it's not even worth pursuing the truth."

<comment><USER5> Opinionated does not mean that it's not balanced or factual.

Everything is at the end of the day interpretation. I would rather know what peoples stance are whether I agree or disagree than to read something that is stated as the truth.

<comment><USER7> Something opinionated is by definition not balanced (in the sense of giving everything an equal shake) or factual. "Fact" and "opinion" are antonyms. And I can't imagine what it would look like for an article to be opinionated but not explicitly favor any particular view over another.

Are we using different definitions here or do you genuinely believe somebody arguing that Steve Jobs is a worthless sonovabitch is being evenhanded?

<comment><USER5> We are perhaps using different definitions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I find it odd I had to restart after upgrading a browser in OSX, reminds me of that old time. In Windows the upgrade went without a restart.

Edit: Yes, talking about Safari only.

<comment><USER9> In what Windows did the upgrading go without a restart? Firefox, maybe. But upgrading the MS COM component responsible for drawing shadows on a drop down menu in some obscure MS library for accessing DAO databases ALWAYS requires a restart.

I uninstalled ZoneAlarm a few days ago and clicked "OK" as I went through the motions .. great, now the machine is rebooting and I lost whatever the fuck I was doing.

Compare that to Linux where I was developing custom file system drivers. modprobe foo, and I had a foo driver looking at an intricate piece of chipod, rmmod and it's gone ..

Wax poetic all you want about OS stability, but Windows is the wrong muse to sing to wrt stability, and I say that typing on XP.

<comment><USER10> I assume the comment referred to Safari 5 for Windows.

<comment><USER11> The original comment was referring to Safari 5 on Mac. Safari 5 on windows does not require a restart.

<comment><USER8> I can't edit my first comment again but I was talking about updating Safari in both operating systems. In OSX you are required to restart, in Windows you don't need to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> _ARGH !!! It DELETED my Safari 4 even when I put it into another directory ??!!_

Who deletes something automatically without a warning/permission these days?

Any sign of a portable/virtualized version yet? Or too soon?

<comment><USER13> > Who deletes something without a warning/permission in this age?

Without warning or permission? You asked it to upgrade your Safari installation, it upgraded from 4 to 5, what were you expecting exactly?

<comment><USER12> No, I told it to install into another directory.

I specifically changed the folder and it confirmed it.

Son-of-a-bee that makes me mad.

<comment><USER14> Nice thing is you click the clock logo in your menu bar, "Enter Time Machine", and drag your Safari 4 icon from an hour ago right back where you want it.

// EDIT: I see below you mention MSIEXEC. So never mind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I love how fast Safari 5 is (faster than Chrome for me) - but the UI of Chrome just makes browsing and navigation much, much better (auto hiding everything you don't need, combining URL and search bar etc). Apple should have learned from Chrome, it's superior.

<comment><USER16> Yes, the first thing I did when trying Safari 5 was try to type a google search in the main address bar.

Its funny how quickly Chrome has reprogrammed me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> There are a few extensions here: <http://safariextensions.tumblr.com/>

<comment><USER18> I'm loving the 'BuiltWith' extension, to explore the technology stacks used by websites. That will certainly come in handy.

[http://blog.builtwith.com/index.php/2010/06/08/builtwith- saf...](http://blog.builtwith.com/index.php/2010/06/08/builtwith-safari- extension/)

<comment><USER17> Yeah, it could use some prettification but it's interesting, I had never heard of it before.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Sunspider benchmark (Win XP, dual core machine):

Opera (v10.53): 299.8ms +/- 1.0%

Safari (v5): 314.2ms +/- 1.7%

Chrome (v5.0.375.55): 326.6ms +/- 7.9%

Firefox (v3.6.3): 716.4ms +/- 1.7%

</comment><comment><USER20> I am having some problems with different sites: outlook.com (admin for organization screens) and my bank. It manifests as blank frames or pages.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'm wondering why the "Export to iBooks" option is missing...

<comment><USER18> On a Mac, you just print to a PDF, and use that in iBooks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> So the default search engine is Bing. Interesting...

<comment><USER23> The default search engine is still Google – it's just that you now can also switch search engines and also pick Yahoo as well as Bing (that's the order in which they appear in the list).

They just heavily advertise this new option with a huge image [1], ordinarily a feature like that would get a line or two of text or maybe not even be mentioned. I guess that's supposed to send a message to Google, something like "We have a good relationship with your competitor so you better not fuck with us!" (i.e. stop us from using Maps or something like that).

[1] <http://www.apple.com/safari/whats-new.html>

<comment><USER24> They already offered Yahoo as an option. It's specifically Bing that's new.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do i fix my language ADD - <AUTHOR> A majority of my work is glueing things together (aka 'data science') with the occasional big application or number cruncher thrown in there. For an unexplainable reason, I don't like python. However, it's exceedingly difficult to justify anything other than python these days. <comment><USER2> Interesting ... I use Python a lot and like it. But have been learning R to come to grips with data science / machine learning material. I believe that some people are using Julia.

I would suggest use the language(s) that you are most productive with and give you the libraries and tools to get the job done.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you are more productive in other languages. If you aren't, why use them?

<comment><AUTHOR> I mean, that is an unassailable point. I guess I would say that I feel productive in most languages after the learning curve. I get caught in the cycle of "oooo what if I'm more productive in x, lisp, or z"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Not that difficult: I use Cython because it's incomparably faster than Python, and anything Pythony I don't like, I can write in C-style, and vice versa.</comment>


Thruster for Mars mission breaks records - <AUTHOR> http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/25192-thruster-for-mars-mission-breaks-records <comment><USER2> The hole of Space exploration is really hindered by the approach to nuclear power. Many missions that could fly with nuclear batteries don't use them. Rosetta would have been a far better mission with one.

On a larger scale we should have nuclear reactors in space. If we ever want a mars colony, nuclear is way, way better then solar. Elon Musk is gone try with solar but he really doesn't have any other options.

NASA is the one place there can actually be progress on this stuff, no private company can reasonable attempted this stuff because of regulation. We need more nuclear batteries, we need small reactors for space and we need nuclear thermal rockets engines.

<comment><USER3> It's not so easy to make space nuclear power light and reliable. Most likely a nuclear powered spacecraft with electric thrusters would be a dog.

Nuclear thermal rockets aren't that great either, the temperature and thus the specific impulse is not very high, and they have high dry mass and would be really expensive to develop and hard to make reliable.

In space you have 1.3 kW per square meter sun power constantly without the atmosphere or clouds in the way, and solar cells improve constantly.

<comment><USER4> At Earth orbit, yes. Recall that the inverse square law applies for light emitted by the sun.

On Mars, solar power per square meter is a bit over 550W.

<comment><USER5> That number sounds high. I make it about 300W for Earth.

[http://heliosphan.org/solarenergy.html](http://heliosphan.org/solarenergy.html)

<comment><USER4> I should have clarified - this is raw irradiance, not the power you'd see from a photovoltaic cell.

<comment><USER5> Ahh, I forgot that my calc was based on an average for the Earth's surface - so including high latitudes and day/night. On that basis I figure our numbers broadly agree.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Doing the math on this 5.4 netwons in 108 kilowatts would give you a maximum exhaust velocity of 38 km/s which is in line with what you expect from a Hall effect thruster. You can get much higher exhaust velocities (and thus more fuel efficient engines) from gridded ion engine but that requires more power for a given thrust and the wear on the grid is a concern.

I'm not really sure why it's important that we have big hall thrusters, though? My impression was that you could just keep adding more of these to a spacecraft if you needed to.

<comment><USER7> It seems like the bigger ones are more efficient. Looking at the design I think they nested several hall effect thrusters which could improve focus or something.

Edit: [http://pepl.engin.umich.edu/projects/NCHETs.html](http://pepl.engin.umich.edu/projects/NCHETs.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> 102kW? How do they plan to provide power for that on a spaceship?

<comment><USER6> For Mars probably solar. The ISS's panels provide that much. Any time you're looking at electric propulsion your power plant is going to be a big fraction of your vehicle weight.

<comment><USER7> The current prototype weighs 500 pounds (226 kg) so it could just accelerate itself at 1/400 g. After 100 hours it could be moving at 8,500 m/s but that's not including cargo or solar panels.

<comment><USER8> The Voyagers do around twice that at the moment.

So, (very much ballpark, and ignoring all additional weight for fuel, etc.), would that mean this could reach three times their speed in a month, and, after that, catch up with one of them in 15 years or so?

If so, is it feasible to build one with enough fuel to accelerate for a year or so?

If so, where's the billionaire willing to spend a few quid on a machine that goes out to photograph one of the Voyagers from close up while it zooms by, or even bring one of them back to earth before the century is over?

<comment><USER6> So, getting up to 25.5 km/s with a rocket with an exhaust velocity of 30 km/s means you need the wet weight to be 2.33 times the dry weight. Last I checked [1] you can get 77 W/kg with photovoltaics so you need you'll need 1402 kg of those in addition to the 226 kg of engine for a total of 1626 kg. Round that up to 2200 kg for structure and tankage and so on for a total we mass of 5126 kg where 2926 kg of that is fuel. You're using that at 5.4/30000=.00018 kg/s for a total of 16255555 seconds of acceleration or about six months. So six months instead of one but basically yes.

[1][http://hopefullyintersting.blogspot.com/2015/03/rockets- elec...](http://hopefullyintersting.blogspot.com/2015/03/rockets-electric- propulsion.html)

EDIT: Of course, as it accelerates it'll get further away from the sun leading to less power from the solar panels and a slower acceleration.

<comment><USER7> Xenon is apparently pretty expensive, like $1,200/kg. Just running it for 100 hours at 0.00018 kg/s will cost $76,800 for the propellant. Plus 10,200 kWh of electricity!

<comment><USER6> That's cheap! The launch'll set you back about $100m so another $3.5m for propellant isn't going to be worth worrying about. At some point we'll be wanting to start finding more fuel for our rockets at our destinations. There are ways we know how to do this for oxygen, hydrogen, and methane but getting more xenon on Mars or Titan just isn't doable. So at that point I expect people to switch over to Argon which doesn't ionize quite as easily but can be found all over the solar system.

<comment><USER7> Or we could set up a Xenon distillery at Jupiter, where it's more abundant :)

<comment><USER6> I don't envy whoever would have to haul it up _that_ gravity well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What's the mass consumption/ejection rate for this thing? What's the power consumption rate? Wondering if a non-solar power source (batteries, nuclear, etc) could cannibalize its waste fuel as ejection material.

</comment><comment><USER10> One of the best things about these thrusters is how they look exactly like a science fiction space thruster should. This would not look out of place on a Star Destroyer or a Federation Constitution class cruiser.

</comment><comment><USER11> Isn't corrosion an issue with hall thrusters, especially at high power and long-duration firings? At least that was one of the selling points of VASIMR over ion thrusters.

</comment><comment><USER12> how does this compare to Space-X Raptor engines ?

<comment><USER13> Raptor is a conventional chemical rocket engine. The thrust is much higher (of order 1 million N vs 5N) but the specific impulse is much worse so your ability to reach speeds is limited by the amount of propellant you need to carry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Url changed from [https://newatlas.com/x3-hall-thruster-test-record- nasa/51869...](https://newatlas.com/x3-hall-thruster-test-record-nasa/51869/), which points to this.

</comment><comment><USER15> Weren't we still unsure how the thruster actually worked? As in where the thrust was coming from?

<comment><USER16> No, that's the EM drive. This engine is less or more a particle accelerator shooting high velocity noble gas. It's like a rocket (less or more), but instead of using a lot of slow matter, it use a little, but very fast, matter. It still requires a supply of matter to trow from the back of the spacecraft, it just uses it in a way to minimize the amount required (by trading it by silly amount of power).

It's based on the classic `F=m*a` Newtonian second law. But uses high `a` instead of high `m`.

The Hall and Ion engines just replace chemical energy with electricity.

Edit: Added the `F=ma` part. Edit2: Added that it still requires matter.

<comment><USER17> But you still need to give it a supply of noble gas, correct?

So how many AU per unit of noble gas do you reach at terminal velocity of the thing?

Also what are the manufacturing limitations for noble supply - given all the talk about us running out of helium.

Aside: it would be ironic if they had helium balloons at the launch party of some such rocket...

Finally, what is the state of the noble gas when consumed by this engine in a full vacuum of space? Is it destroyed into a state that is unrecoverable?

<comment><USER18> > _terminal velocity of the thing?_

What?

<comment><USER17> Assume you have a thing: rocket, satellite, probe, etc, and you're pushing it to mars or whatever, and you have an engine that, based on the comment states in consumer noble gasses as fuel, one would assume you have to provide the noble gas, correct?

So after you falcon9 the thing into orbit, and push it along, and it then uses this engine to go the distance, will it constantly increase or hit a max terminal velocity. In either case, would that not tell you how much fuel to give it; which comes down to "if it is powered by helium and we are supposedly running out of helium, how much helium would it use vs how much helium is available?"

Is that not a sound question?

The second part of the question is "if we give it one ton of fuel, how far can it get?"

Pretty simple MPG question in my mind...

<comment><USER19> There are a lot of variable not accounted for, like the mass of the ship(and cargo) you are going to attach it to. In theory it can keep accelerating as long as it has fuel, and the maximum speed would be related to the speed of the exhaust. At very high velocity we would have to account for friction with the interstellar medium, space isn't entirely empty just the density is very (very) low.

In the real world you probably have a destination in mind... and maybe want to come back. For one way mission, accelerate till half your fuel is gone, perhaps coast for a bit, then decelerate with the remaining fuel (maybe keep some reserves for maneuvering).

<comment><USER17> So basically, step two of getting to Mars is to setup interstellar refulling stations.

Once you get to mars, or any destination, you need fuel to get back/other things...

So assuming we have an engine that can deliver us back and forth in a reasonable time, then we need to think about deploying intermediate refueling drones... and then drones to refill them... and then how to manufacture and deliver that fuel to the various nodes...

And if we are running out of helium, on earth, we need to find the most harvestable noble gas we can in the solar system...

What are the atmospheres of the other planets made up of, specifically Jupiter, how could we slurp off its atmosphere to Bush is around the solar system?

Assuming other energy sources don't pan out

<comment><USER20> Interstellar refueling stations don't make any real sense because you spend as much fuel rendezvousing with the refueling station as you'd get back.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Desperate Python Hacker Seeking Help and Suggestions - <AUTHOR> I don't really know where to start here, as I'm near the end of my rope.
For personal, family, and financial reasons, I've been looking for jobs (unsuccessfully) in west Michigan for the past year.  Now, my savings are depleted, and I might be looking at homelessness if I'm not able to get something going quickly.
Background: I'm a graduate-educated Python hacker with advanced coursework in mathematics and a couple CS courses.  In my studies, I've taken courses in graph theory, linear algebra, neural networks, numerical analysis, and theory of computation.  I also audited a course in programming languages one semester simply because I was bored.
I first learned C nearly 20 years ago, and, though I can't really quote chapter and verse of the standard anymore, I'm still quite good at it.  I've also used Python in school and as part of a short stint as a software tester for about 5 years.  I'm also interested in learning Haskell and have been working on that for a couple of months.
I can code FizzBuzz in multiple idioms (functional, OO, procdural) in multiple languages.  I know algorithms fairly well and love solving problems.  I'm willing to do any test anyone has for me to prove my abilities.  I do also have some public code on github, but it's just a couple small projects that aren't even really useful at this point.
In spite of all that, I haven't been able to turn it into a job in this area, because I have no real contacts in the industry (meaning I have to go through HR), and all the job ads specify things like "5 years C# experience," so I think my application is just ending up in file 13 because I don't tick the proper buzzwords.
I've tried Odesk &c and haven't been able to get any traction there.  I don't really have the ability to do a startup because I'm about $100 short of "$100 and an idea" that's needed to do so. :/
I'd appreciate any help anyone has for me.  Please either reply here (and please upvote! this account is, of course, a throwaway) or email to email@example.com.
Thank you all,
A Desperate Hacker <comment><USER4> As someone born and raised in Michigan and whose partner was also born and raised in Michigan, my advice is that other than visiting grandparents and hiking and touring breweries, you will find your opportunities tremendously expanded by as quickly as possible getting the fuck out of Michigan.

<comment><USER5> Another Michigan ex-pat here to completely agree. Grew up in mid-Michigan, went to a big university there for CS, and I wasn't interested in writing .NET or Java for an insurance company. That led to moving to SF to hack on Python and JavaScript with other hipster hackers.

The only thing I really miss is Michigan's summer heat (it's mid 60's and windy here - in July).

<comment><USER6> Ummm....move to the East Bay. Past the Oakland/Berkeley hills it's between 80 and 100 through the summer, and you can always Bart into SF. Rent is going to be a lot less too.

Of course it will never be as HUMID as in Michigan, but...do you really want that?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I realize you're using a new HN account, possibly throw-away, or you may actually be new here. At the start of every month on HN is a "Who's Hiring MM YYYY" thread (which includes remote work), and a "Freelancer/Seeking Freelancer" thread.

The most recent were on July 1st, and on Monday new ones for August will be posted. The most recent are linked below, but keep your eyes open for Monday.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2719028>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2719083>

good luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Have you considered a drastic move to SF, NYC, Boston, or another startup hotspot? Having no money in Michigan is no better than having no money in a more expensive city, so cost of living shouldn't even be a factor here.

Also, don't limit yourself to Python / C. Stress that you're able and willing to learn any programming language and solve any challenge that comes your way. I know there isn't a single unemployed Ruby developer in chicago, thanks to Groupon.

Finding a job as a developer is actually not that hard, in this economy. Be thankful you're in this industry and not, say, the automotive industry.

<comment><USER9> _Have you considered a drastic move to SF, NYC, Boston, or another startup hotspot?_

Ah yes, it's so easy to move when you can't even afford $100 to start a company. Great advice.

 _Finding a job as a developer is actually not that hard, in this economy._

Looks like you're wrong, in this instance at least.

<comment><USER10> I find it interesting that your hostility came through so easily and without consideration for how your words could effect someone seeking to employ you. (which is the actual reason I had read this post)

You seem to focus all of your attention on what "skills" you have without regard for the personality traits that make a desirable team member. I can guarantee you that you will meet many developers with greater skill than you poses.

When I look to hire a developer or if I were to be considering you as a co- founder I would first judge your ability to be an asset to the team.

I'd be curious to learn why you were let go from your previous job, but It is certainly a combination of your personality flaws, lack of relevant skills, and inability to adapt.

While the advice of moving to a new city may not seem plausible to you, your reaction to the question is quite telling. 1) You are condescending and inaccurately view "reality" 2) You are a linear thinker (consider becoming more lateral)

I'd wager that the reason you are unable to find a job is because of these 2 character traits...

I'd start with those

<comment><USER11> mtogo is a random commenter, not the same person who is looking for help in Michigan. I'd love to know what company you work for, though, so I can stay far away.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Maybe being blunt, but if you're seriously about to be out of house and home because you can't find a job, you need to lower your fence. Aspiring to be a programmer/hacker/startup guy is great, but even a job stacking shelves in a shop would give you enough money to survive on while you continue looking for a job you'd enjoy (Or working on your own projects). Put it this way, living on the street gives you hardly any chance of getting somewhere you want to be. Having a house and a crappy job for a few years while you get back on your feet is a much better choice.

<comment><USER13> This country is harsh and there is NO safety net for the able bodied at the end of a rope. Deliver pizza (and get shot), stock shelves, what ever it takes.

You are not your job. It is illegal to be homeless in the USA.

<comment><USER13> I don't really understand the downvotes. Please explain.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Your description really isn't enough to give you advice. You should post your resume online somewhere and link to it.

But, based on what you said, I can tell you:

Using Python in school and at a job doesn't make you a Python Hacker. From your description of yourself it sounds like you mostly play with programming. It may just be the way you worded it, but what was the last 'major' software project you have worked on, either for work or open source? Have you been a developer professionally, or have you skirted on the edges of the industry? I interview candidates and review resumes all the time, and nothing sets off my spidey senses more than someone who overestimates their skills. If you don't know a topic well and know you don't, that is totally fine, but when a candidate says they are an '8/10' in a language, but I gauge them to be a near beginner, it tells me they are blissfully unaware how much they don't know. That means that they probably have never learned any language or topic with a high degree of mastery, and that they aren't aware of how much more is out there in the language in question. That means they aren't very curious, and they aren't passionate (or worse, they aren't smart).

It also sounds like you have a graduate degree in some non-technical field. Did you graduate recently? The courses you list are not very advanced, and coursework doesn't really matter for employment anyway.

We are hiring aggressively (like most big tech companies in the valley) have an engineering challenge up at: <http://codeeval.com/public_sc/48/> . If you do it competently we _will_ call you back. We pay well, have great benefits, offer relocation, etc. However, it is fairly challenging and the majority of people who attempt it are not able to complete it.

Honestly, FizzBuzz is meant as a test of basic programming competency. It's disqualifying when an engineer can't do it, but it's not anything to brag about. A competent engineer should be able to implement FizzBuzz in any computer language in a few minutes, even if they've never seen the language before, so long as they can get documentation.

No matter what happens, you aren't going to find work in Michigan. You aren't connected and from the sound of it your resume is very light, and you don't have a network, so contracting and freelancing just isn't realistic for you. Based on your description of yourself, you would be a fairly junior level engineer wherever you go. You have to start somewhere, though. Good luck!

<comment><USER15> I looked at that challenge. Is it really that much harder than FizzBuzz? Seems like it requires more string manipulation and about the same level of mathematics as FizzBuzz.

Or am I falling victim to the effect where everything I know how to do looks easy?

<comment><USER16> The problem's description is deceptively simple. It poses at the end a combinatorics problem that is non-trivial. I submitted a correct solution after a bit of research; my first approach was the naive solution.

<comment><AUTHOR> If, by "non-trivial," you mean NP-hard, I agree. :-)

<comment><USER16> I was trying to be vague so as not to give hints to those interested in trying the challenge. Evidently, I am utterly guileless.

<comment><AUTHOR> Given the number of combinatorial optimization problems that are NP-hard, I don't think that gives anything away to anyone who doesn't already know what you're talking about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Don't underestimate the power of 'cold-calling.' While it's terrifying for people not used it to it, you'd be surprised how friendly people are when contacted out of the blue for a legitimate question. Find some developers on open source projects you like, see where they work (either location-wise or company-wise) and send them an e-mail saying "Hey, I wanted to thank you for writing/contributing to the X software package. I've noticed you live in / work at Y; I am currently seeking a development job in Python or C and would be interested in moving there/working there. Do you happen to know of any opportunities available? If not, again accept my thanks for X software." Don't attach a resume, if the person is responsive the first thing they will do is ask for one.

The key here is to actually want to move to that area, work with that company (whether it's 10 or 10,000), or work in that field. People detect insincerity relatively easily, don't contact people unless you actually want to work with _them_ as opposed to _anybody_. On the flip side, _never_ let yourself be discouraged by thinking "nah, I'm not good enough for them." The worse thing that happens is the person doesn't respond; this may feel bad but you end up with a thicker skin and learn how to do it better the next time.

Also: do not spam. Again with the insincerity thing above: this technique only works if you want to work with _them_ instead of _anybody_ , and I promise you they can pick up on that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Just moved from Grand Rapids, and can say there is a very small but growing startup scene in Grand Rapids.

Although I didn't get to check it out, there is a great Python User Group that meets regularly (I believe every other Monday) at various locations in GR, usually at Calvin College. Join the group and they'll send out regular updates. Ben Rousch is the contact there, he also runs the local Web Dev User group. I've exchanged emails with him before, he is a great guy and very helpful. It might not hurt to get in touch with him.

More importantly, just recently someone put up a job posting on the group looking for a python/django programmer. I suggest you check it out. [http://www.fiveq.com/blog/employment/fiveq-employment- opport...](http://www.fiveq.com/blog/employment/fiveq-employment-opportunity- software-developer/)

It might not hurt to drop into Atomic Object, they're growing and usually hiring as well: <http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Working+at+Atomic+Object>

If I can be any help to you, perhaps putting you in contact with other people then let me know. My email is listed on my profile page.

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER19> First off you need to consider scraping together enough money to get out of where you are. Move to a place that has jobs. You say "family"... do you have children? This is an important consideration in terms of where you can go... I think there are basically two types of cities with solid startup/software job markets: There's the NYC/SFs of the world, incredibly lucrative, incredibly expensive. Then there are the Austin/Boulders of the world, financially reasonable, but not the "big time". From the sound of your situation, the latter is just fine.

Also if you are _that_ desperate, you should consider moving to one of these places and leaving your family behind until you've made enough money to bring them to you. That may sound horrible, but it's the way people have pulled themselves up and made a better life for their family for centuries.

<comment><USER20> I second the latter paragraph. It won't be long before you've got the cash to move for real - but if you're on your own in the world, you can be a lot more flexible and still send money home for the family. (Assuming that is even your situation.)

I've never actually needed to do that, but my wife and I have agreed that it would be a valid emergency measure if and when.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> My advice. Don't do contract freelance work. It is risky in that if you're not a good business person, you will string yourself along under the illusion of paying the bills. But you'll slowly be moving backward as projects take longer than you expect, you undercharge, etc..

You really may need to uproot your family. I know that the tech economy is booming in several major urban areas. I'm up in Toronto, and have headhunters calling me like crazy. There is a dearth of programming talent. I know several people in San Francisco and they say that the valley has the same problem.

The situation is so desperate that I know several companies that would entertain hiring somebody in Michigan to do work for them remotely. It might take a trip up to Toronto to meet with some folks, but that's just a several hour drive.

<comment><USER22> I'm actually looking to move back to Toronto, where's the best place to look for these jobs? Most of the stuff that I hear about are corporate Java and/or C#/.NET type jobs.

<comment><USER21> Seriously, start on Twitter. Everybody who's anybody in the Toronto developer scene is pretty active on Twitter these days. Find a few developers with blogs, follow them, then start following a few of their followers or people they RT. From Twitter, start attending some meet-ups. If you're an iPhone, Android, Python, Ruby or JS developer, it's a pretty good job market right now. Most of the places you'll want to work at are right in the downtown core so you can bike, walk, or subway/streetcar it to work. That also makes socializing vastly easier as everyone is clustered in the same area.

[http://www.meetup.com/HTML5-Web-App- Developers/events/225564...](http://www.meetup.com/HTML5-Web-App- Developers/events/22556421/)

<http://techtalksto.com/>

I know there are a ton of Toronto lurkers on here too.

<comment><USER22>
      > start attending some meet-ups

This is obvious, but doesn't work so well when you are not living in the area. Flying from Portland to Toronto to attend a meetup is a bit pricey. I did meet someone from Freshbooks at OSCON though.

I'll also mention that when I was last living (~3 years ago) in Toronto, I didn't find it easy to hook up with the local Python/Perl communities. Heck, I sent a request to join the Toronto Perl Mongers mailing list and never got a response. I assumed that there wasn't much of a community.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There are a number of open source Python projects that have vendors associated with them (or large corporate users). OpenStack is one such example, but there's also various scientific libraries, e.g., NumPy/scipy that may better suited to your background. Typically open source-heavy companies are more open to remote/distributed work: I am not saying working remotely full-time, but something along the lines of working on site for the first six months (to prove yourself) and then working remotely most of the time/flying in on site for one week a month.

Consider this: identify several such projects along with the companies that are heavily involved in these projects open source communities, i.e., ones that are actually contributing and/or heavily modifying them.

First, send a patch, do something to "get your feet wet". Then pick a substantial sub-project (not something trivial), start contributing to it and at the mean time contact the engineer/managers working at associated companies (as not to be trapped in the HR resume black-hole). In the interview, at least mention the work you're doing.

Chances are they will be willing to fly you out to interview and help relocate. Be honest with them and say that (due to family reason) you'll need to at the very least travel.

In the worst case, you could do the reverse of working remotely/visiting the office frequently: rent a room in the remote area, work in the office most of the time, travel to Michigan for weekends/a week at a time: this will be difficult, but at the very least you'll be able to establish more "formal" experience and industry connections that you could translate into a more sustainable arrangement later (don't, however, start a position knowing that you won't be able to stick for at least a year and a half to two years: that would not very ethical, especially since you're looking for a company that will invest in your career). Of course, some family situations, e.g., elder care won't allow for that. In that case, still the advice applies: you're far more likely to find a remote-work scenario in an open-source related company than elsewhere.

<comment><USER23> Quick clarification by: "pick a substantial sub-project (not something trivial), start contributing to it", I mean:

_Implement_ a non-trivial module for the project in question , i.e., do much more than fix a few bugs.

Since you are junior (no actual development experience), it might not be realistic to hope for a remote position even in companies otherwise friendly to it. You need to make it a point to move for at least a few years: you'll want a company that can invest in you and give you a chance to prove yourself, before you can do more unorthodox things.

<comment><USER24> just curious have you contributed to open source? If you have how did you get started with little experience?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Aside from the "move immediately" advice, I'd suggest getting your code out there in a more public way. This dramatically increases your chances of being hired, because it replaces the technical interview. You just have to prove that you're capable of dealing with other human beings, and most people can do that.

Do something -- anything -- to get your code out there. Even if it's the most obscure and idiosyncratic library, throw it on Github.

I got a ticket to the Valley on the strength of some decently interesting (but by no means amazing) open source code. And I'm not even American and have no CS education, so it was considerably more difficult for me than it will be for you.

Incidentally, my current employer, the Wikimedia Foundation, is very open to remote contractors. (I caution you that we tend to be a bit slow to hire.) If you want to continue to live in Michigan, you won't be unique in your isolation, because these organizations are basically run over the internet. And your salary will go much further if you don't have to deal with rent in SF. <http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Jobs>

Mozilla has similar advantages. <http://www.mozilla.com/en- US/about/careers.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you tell me more about how you accomplished this?

<comment><USER25> I'm not sure I would call it an accomplishment. More like a happy accident, but in retrospect I should have been doing that sort of thing all the time.

Frustrated with my inability to find employment, I did a series of hacks which became really popular. One succeeded because I like hacks which produce pretty pictures and so do a million other blogs. Another involved AJAX, which was a hot buzzword at the time (2005), and that got attention from from employers, who started calling me out of the blue. Whereas a few months prior I'd washed out of an interview with a local website that did used car listings.

I was well-prepared for the mega-hyped trend that was AJAX and JavaScript (self-taught comp sci, graphic design, web experience), so I was lucky. I had to prove myself in other ways afterwards though. The point is, these days, having code out there that people can download and evaluate will at least get you through the front door.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Repeating the advice of others to move, if only in the hope that the repetition will alude to the validation of said advice.

I usually don't have a good word to say about recruiters but in cases like yours it might be worth contacting a few who work in one of the hubs you could move to, and have them look at your resume. They'll help you brush it up if needed but more importantly help you validate that there are employers looking for your skill set _(because if they don't think they can place you, they won't spend any time with you)_.

Have them set up 3 or 4 interviews and scrape together the fare to come here and you might not need the return ticket. Just don't indicate to them that you are desperate but white-lie and tell them that you just want to relocate to SF/NY/etc.

BTW I moved to SF from a different country (UK) 5 years ago because it is where I needed to be for my career - it was hard but I did it and it is one of the best decisions I made. The winters are better here too! :)

<comment><USER27> Agreed with Ben. I'm an Aussie transplant and know the pain that comes with moving but have to say it was the best decisions of my life.

I help the portfolio of Charles River Ventures (early investor in Twitter, Yammer) find exceptional hackers to help change the world. Happy to look over people's resumes and give feedback. If you're not from Silicon Valley, I'll set you up with a half dozen interviews and can help you overcome visa issues -- I'm passionate about seeing the world's smartest people working in startups (either as founders or early stage employees).

Email: elias @ crv.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Here is my story. I graduated from Mechanical engineering 3 years ago. After I finished school I got a job at a small company doing embedded development, mostly in `c`. My salary was $78000.

Two years after I started my job, I decided to learn iOS programming during evenings and weekends. A few months later I quit my job and decided to do iOS programming full time. At the time, I was working on an idea and didn't have anything ready for the world to see. Months passed and I still wasn't ready. I realized that it would take me another year to complete so I decided to pivot and work on another product.

After 1 month of pivoting I released my first project on the Mac App Store and was making ~$5000/month. A few months later, a company came knocking on my door and gave me a job offer. I accepted and am now making more than I did in my first job. I still have my business running on autopilot. I am 27.

This is not to brag. It is to show that if you really want to get out of the rut that you are in, lock yourself in a room, build something and release it into the wild. If you don't have a good idea, copy someone else's. By doing this, you'll learn new skills and will eventually become valuable to others.

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'm a Python/Ruby developer in Chicago originally from Michigan. If you want to stay close to Michigan for whatever reason, but need a job, Chicago is a great compromise.

Chicago has an excellent Python user group: <http://chipy.org/> Get on the mailing list and let them know your situation. Also consider learning Ruby on Rails. If you Python, Ruby will be easy to learn. If you know any Javascript at all, leverage that.

</comment><comment><USER30> Try to get a job as a sysadmin or IT person at a health care organization/hospital. In economically depressed areas, these organizations usually provide the best paying jobs because they are not subject to normal market forces. They exist everywhere, and will hire anyone even sort of qualified for the job. You can use that experience to move to a city where they have the python jobs you want, because health care orgs everywhere are desperate for people who know about their specialized infrastructure.

Here's a few examples of what I mean if you are say, in Grand Rapids.

[http://careers.spectrum- health.org/?job=main.searchbycat&...](http://careers.spectrum- health.org/?job=main.searchbycat&cat=245509&view=tlp&startrow=&utm_source=careersite)

<comment><USER31> _"They will hire anyone even sort of qualified for the job"_

Are you sure? When I read those job postings, I see stuff like:

 _Job Requirements: Bachelor's degree. Minimum of five years experience with Informatica or another comparable ETL product. Knowledge of data warehousing. Experience with development and trouble shooting within the HealthQuest PLIB, PM, IIP, COMLINK HL7, MR, PA modules and Q-processing. Experience with monitoring and addressing batch cycle activities._

Either they grossly overask, of you wouldn't have a chance if you're not an insider already.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> If you're able and/or willing to go to Silicon Valley, which is where I think your best bet is (note: I don't live there, but if I was near homeless that's probably where I would go), then I will figure out a way to get you a plane ticket with few strings attached. The strings would be around timing and departure location: I need enough time to get a decent fare. I would expect you to have a plan. I would ask that you fly out of a major airport for competitive fares. That's pretty much it. My email in my profile.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow. I'm floored. Thanks for your response. I'll keep it in mind.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I agree with some people that a move might be your best bet, though from your post its not obvious if there is anything (such as family) keeping you from moving. I think its a shame that oDesk did not work out for you - maybe try another service such as eLance where I personally feel (as someone who employs via these services) that a better quality of person is found on there. Yes there is the chance of competing against lower waged people in other countries, however I personally employ based on skills and communication and these days the costs are not as wide as they once were.

I am curious as to why you have not found something locally. Surely there are groups you can join, either on or offline, which would help you.

I hope that some of the comments on here will help you or spur you into some action

</comment><comment><USER34> Is there anything (other than money) stopping you from moving to San Francisco (well, Mountain View) next week?

It would be pretty easy to find a tech company willing to do phone/internet screen for a day or two remotely, and then fly you out for interview. If it goes well, you'd probably be pressured to just stay and work and then have someone else pack up/ship your stuff :)

You should have done this instead of wasting your time trying to find jobs locally, really.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm at the point where, if I had an offer with a relocation package in the Bay area, I'd be there. Thanks for your suggestion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I feel like I was in a similar position. My advice is gonna suck, but you should really try to start working at a grocery store/shitty party time jobs/borrow or something to save up about $2000 and flat out move. That will be enough to get you to the bay area, find a job, and live for about a month, maybe even get a room.

If you come to SF, you'll be able to find a job doing something somewhere to get off the ground. I promise you this.

</comment><comment><USER36> Why are you not at PyOhio? The west michigan group carpolled. Broadly speaking: go to python meetups, network.

<comment><USER37> I second this. Also consider Python-related meetups and user groups, like Django.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Have you tried looking through some of the more recent "Who's Hiring" threads here on HN?

Here's the most recent one from June, looking for freelancers (I'm not sure if a July one was posted):

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2607058>

And here's a list of some more recent threads:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring>

I imagine you're pretty stressed out, but hang in there, and good luck.

(Woops – looks like jcr beat me to it. His/her comment has even more recent information.)

</comment><comment><USER39> Try temp agencies and contract agencies. I'd be shocked if they don't pick you up. I've been told they are pretty desperate for warm bodies right now and know several people that have gone that route out of desperation. Sure it is not permanent or glamorous but it will pay the bills.

</comment><comment><USER40> "5 years C# experience,"

/\ Try bending the truth.

Firstly you'll need different CVs depending on the job you are going for. So take the one saying "Did python for 5 years at XYZ corp" and change it to "Did python and C# for 5 years at XYZ corp" - This should get you past the HR gatekeepers and in the meantime you just have to skill up on c#. When you reach the interview with technical people they will be more reasonable - providing you _are_ actually comfortable with c#.

<comment><USER26> On this point remember that "5 years C experience" != "5 years commercial C experience".

If you were doing commercial- _grade_ programming in Uni (or before) or any open source then consider that valid experience.

Finally, just because a job says 5 years experience, and you don't have it, doesn't mean that they won't consider your resume if you submit it. Better to hear the hiring manager say "no" then not submit your resume at all. Case in point, I don't have a college degree but I think every job I've ever held in my 12 years in this industry has asked for one on the requirements. I don't have one but I can do the job so I just applied anyway otherwise I'd never work!

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Dude, you NEVER have to go through HR. Use Google, and track down a manager working on something interesting. Most interesting projects will have a web presence of some kind. Those that don't usually aren't interesting (or are buried deep in Google or Apple).

If you can't get the manager's contact details, _then_ you call HR, and ask for their details.

If that doesn't work, find a company that _might_ have some interesting projects. Contact their IT department (get the number of HR if you _must_ ), and ask about what projects you might be able to join. Note, many interesting projects are not in IT, but in other departments; but IT will have some idea where those projects are. If you are good at number crunching, tell them that. You can try other tricks, like if the manager says they are too busy, you can ask if they have someone else who can take the call. You can also find out if the company has a programmer's mailing list - maybe IT could help you there?

You will get rejections, but it's better to get 20 rejections and an offer in a week than no rejections and no offers.

</comment><comment><USER42> "meaning I have to go through HR"

By the way, the reason why you haven't been able to find a job is because _you have no idea how to land work_. (I can tell because saying "I have to go through HR" is as clueless as someone saying "I wrote a program but it didn't work so my computer must be broken" :-)

The relocation option works because you don't need to know how to land work to get hired -- there are jobs all over the place and you just walk around and stumble over one.

That's not a bad idea for your situation right now: if you don't find something just by posting on HN here, you could get yourself to San Francisco, crash on someone's couch, walk around and talk to people, land something that gives you some income. (The trick here is that the more _active_ you are about it -- e.g., if _you_ come to SF, and if _you_ go around and talk to people -- the faster the process will happen).

Now, longer term, thinking about where you want to be next year (that is, after you've resolved your immediate crisis), you might find it beneficial to learn how to land work, depending on your goals. For example, maybe for personal reasons you'd prefer to be in Michigan.

Someone hires you because you will solve a problem for them. Some of the problems that people have can be solved with Python or numerical analysis, etc. Of the people with problems that can be solved with your skillset, a small percentage already _know_ that their problem can be solved with Python or whatever. Those people advertise for jobs. When you don't find a job in Michigan, it doesn't mean that no one in Michigan has problems. It doesn't even mean that no one in Michigan has problems that can be solved using linear algebra and so on. What it means is that people in Michigan with those problems don't know yet that their problems can be solved with those techniques. Thus sending HR a resume listing those skills won't land you a job because the recipient doesn't understand that you can solve their problem.

You can learn how to land work in the same way you learned how to program. Think back to what what your most effective learning method for you, when you were learning to program. (Was it reading books, taking a class, or talking to people who already knew how to program, or what?) Then use the same method for learning how to land work: if reading books works best for you, read a book or three; if classes are your style, take a class or a workshop; and so on.

</comment><comment><USER43> Contact StartupDigest VIP: <http://startupdigest.com/vip/> tell them you met Jonathan from Hackers & Founders online on Hacker News. The concierge job placement service they started two months ago is already the best in town... low key. no pressure. opt in system for both startups looking for talent and engineers looking for jobs. As a bonus, it's run by two of the savviest and most connected hackers in the Valley: Chris and Brendan.

<full disclosure> They just sponsored Hackers & Founders Silicon Valley this past week, and they are our sponsors for the next month.

But, their sponsorship was mostly to because we're boot strapping an incubator without much of a budget at all.

Doesn't matter. They're the best source of startup jobs in town, and it's the best way to find startup jobs in town.

</full disclosure>

Also, start doing some challenges at CodeEval.com. After you have some completed, ping me, and I'll let Jim, the CEO know. We'll get you hooked up.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your reply. I'll look into it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Canonical is hiring Python folks (please note you'll have to dig through there for the PyJobs): [http://www.linkedin.com/jsearch?page_num=1&sortCriteria=...](http://www.linkedin.com/jsearch?page_num=1&sortCriteria=DD&keepFacets=&facet_COMPANY=234280)

plus, many of their positions assume you work remotely.

</comment><comment><USER45> Move.

Really.

SFO, NYC, Boston, Atlanta, all need tons of work.

</comment><comment><USER46> If your skills are as you describe then move to the bay area and look for a job out here.

There are a lot of hackers out here who could help you out. Heck, even I have a couch (in Mountain View) that you can crash on for a few weeks. Email me.

</comment><comment><USER47> There are plenty of people in Seattle (and I'm sure most big cities) having a really tough time finding people to hire. In Seattle, I know of several companies looking for python devs.

As other people here are stating, you need to move.

<comment><USER48> Do you need to move, though? If programmers really are that scarce, is a plane ticket + hotel enough disincentive to interview a good candidate?

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> This post is a day old now, so I'm guessing this won't be getting too much visibility, but AtomicEmbedded (my employer) is hiring experienced embedded software developers.

[http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Embedded+Developer+Applica...](http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Embedded+Developer+Application)

If the Embedded group doesn't look like your thing, you can also submit an application to our parent company, AtomicObject. They are also hiring.

<http://www.atomicobject.com/pages/Working+at+Atomic+Object>

AtomicObject normally hires generalists (which it sounds like you are), so experience with many languages and programming concepts is a huge plus. AtomicEmbedded needs a more specific developer who can get their hands messy with microcontrollers, oscilloscopes, and low level C code while still playing in the land of ponies and fairies (Ruby/Rails/Python/C#).

If any of this sounds like your thing, don't hesitate to submit a resume. We're always looking for the right people.

</comment><comment><USER50> The thing about programming is, to be good you need to do it. You wrote a lot of things like "I can do this, I can do that." But I guess a lot better to find a job would be "I've done that". Hell, even if you write a Snake or Tetris clone for the iPhone/Android Market, or write small patches for documentation errors for opensource stuff you use. Even projects where you just helped a friend to finish his master thesis would be better then nothing.

And if you are out of money stop looking in one direction. Open up in many ways. And if you fry burgers at McDonnals, who cares. Pay your bills and in your free time get going with doing anything programming related.

My point is: I think the US is the most developed IT market these days. People who actually do things should always be able to get a job. If you didn't get a job until now, it is probably because you didn't really look for it, or you still don't have "what it takes".

Also I think through doing things you automatically learn to know like minded people and thus find entrance into companies.

</comment><comment><USER51> I may be able to help you directly with work rather than give advice. Whether you are married, have kids, or other obligations is of major importance, however. I could even possibly set you up with your own br/ba once my remodel is finished.

I prefer not to use email without GPG, so rather than email I will put my phone number in my profile if I see you are actively following the replies.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I appreciate this.

<comment><USER51> Apparently, I can't do what I thought I could. So, I am going to delete this phone number shortly (I will go to bed at ~2230 (MST).

edit: removed.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's the thought that counts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> <http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/careers>

<comment><USER53> Don't bother, I submitted a resume months ago that would be a perfect fit for one of the positions and I haven't even heard back for a rejection.

<comment><USER52> I don't understand in what kind of world you live in, where it's better not to try because you might be disappointed.

<comment><USER53> What? I said don't bother because they aren't replying to submissions at all.

<comment><USER54> ... based on a sample of one, though.

<comment><USER55> Make that sample of two, as I had the same experience.

granted it's a sample of two out of who knows how many, but there it is. Will still be applying again but it won't be at the top of the list sadly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Learn Java and learn it now. Python might be nice in comparison but it isn't going to put food on the table where you live. I'm lucky to have python job (thanks to being part of a coup to overthrow PHP). If you can't find python jobs stop looking for python jobs! Java has tons of warts, but if it feed you, who cares?

</comment><comment><USER57> Do you absolutely need to stay in Michigan? There are amazing companies (like mine: BrightScope.com) that are hiring right now in places like San Diego, CA for the same skill set you have (check out our careers page -- if you apply, I'll see it -- just make sure to mention your HN posting).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I appreciate this, and I'll be following up later.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> A few ideas

1\. Consider where it is going wrong. Are you getting interviews for things you are suitable for? Are you getting knocked back at the interview stage? i.e. it it you CV that needs sorting out, or the interview? Or is it that there is nothing that matches your skills? Regardless of anything I would get someone else to give you feedback on your CV.

2\. Find companies using the technologies you use and ring them up to see if they have any work available, rather than waiting for adverts.

3\. Consider being a tester. It is rare to find a good tech skilled tester / QA and they are valuable.

4\. Get the skills for the jobs that are available. Frankly if you are desperate then put 5 years of C# on your CV and work night and day building something in C#.

</comment><comment><USER59> Have you thought about what the companies' problems are and how you can use Python to solve their problems? Yes, companies are looking for specific skills but there are companies that are looking for someone to fix their issues. They don't care how you implement it as much as it gets that issue off their backs.

So if you want to land a job or a client do some thinking on what their issues might be, their dreams, their goals, and maybe their fears. If you know these and can translate these into how you can implement solutions, then you will show them how much value you bring to the table. And when you can think of ways to create value, you can immediately charge almost anything.

</comment><comment><USER60> Find someone to look over your resume and cold-call CEO's/hiring managers of companies you're interested in.

It's my first time ever applying to job postings. Started looking a few weeks ago and found out my resume was crap, after getting some advice and rewriting it my response rate is 75%.

If you're interested in a company and think they might need you, just email the CEO a short note. You'd be amazed at how often you'll get a response, a couple even introduced me to other CEOs looking for someone with my skill set.

The two key's points to communicate: why are you interested in the company and what can you do for them.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Any chance you could show a before/after of your resume?

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> Move to Ann Arbor, get a CS job. Until you get on your feet down here you can do contract work through a company like Stout Systems <http://stoutsystems.com/>

<comment><USER62> Don't move to Ann Arbor. There's like 6 companies within a 30 mile radius that can hire you there.

Move to Indianapolis, Chicago, or Cleveland, if you want to stay in the midwest (I'm in Chicago and wouldn't blame you).

Strong agree with the overall sentiment that you can't stay in Grand Rapids if you want to be a dev.

<comment><USER30> What's in Indianapolis and Cleveland?

<comment><USER62> Lots of companies that need code written. Saying "move to Chicago" felt janky given that I'm a Chicago booster. I don't know if there's much of a Cleveland startup scene. There is an Indy scene but it's small. However: who cares? You don't have to work for a startup to get paid to code.

Thanks for calling me on this, though; if you look at "top employers" lists, Columbus might actually be a better location. Columbus feels A2-ey, but there big companies HQ'd there.

I lived and worked in A2 for 4+ years. I love A2, but I would strongly advise against moving there unless there's a job there you're in love with.

<comment><USER30> Well I mean, are there any specific companies or industries in those towns? Or is the idea just a bigger town with more programming jobs at banks, insurance companies, etc? Genuinely curious. If the idea is to uproot to another mid- sized midwestern city to get a generic programming job, why not suggest somewhere civilized, like Minneapolis? Alternatively, if one is so desperate as to consider moving to Cleveland to find a programming job, might as well drive another two hours to Pittsburgh. There probably actually are python jobs there...

<comment><USER62> Cleveland isn't a terrible city. You don't have to be desperate to move there. I think we are ultimately in agreement that he should move to a real metro area.

<comment><USER30> I agree with moving somewhere else but will have to "agree to disagree" about Cleveland...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgAjjuqZM>

<comment><USER63> Yes it is a funny video but it isn't really representative of the city. Yes Clevelanders have all laughed at this video. For a positive take on the city see: <http://juliaincleveland.tumblr.com/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> The power of advertising at work! At the Perl Lightning Talks on Thursday at OSCON there were dueling advertisements for Grant Street Group and Booking.com. Grant Street Group does remote work out of Pittsburgh and Booking.com is based out of Amsterdam (but they will pay for relocation).

Granted these are both Perl-oriented jobs, but if you really are 'at the end of your rope' then I would make an attempt.

[I say the power of advertising at work because they both successfully pimped their employers]

</comment><comment><USER64> Get your remaining funds and start a saas website using any of the Python web frameworks available. Just spend some time finding which problem to actually address, and require your users to pay you on a monthly subscription (strictly no freemium).

If this goes well you have a project that can at least help you pay the bills at the moment. If not this would go better on your portfolio than being able to do FizzBuzz.

Again, ask money from day one.

</comment><comment><USER65> I understand Pixar (in the East Bay area near SF) has openings for skilled pythonistas. They can't be alone. But they are in the bay area, not Grand Rapids.

If you're going to stick around the upper midwest and feed your family, you need to get your Java and C# mojo working. Don't listen to the ones who sneer at those languages; good programming is just like good waitering -- delight your users and you'll be fine.

</comment><comment><USER66> Do you have to stay in the area? Would you be willing to relocate?

I agree that any developer meetings (not just python) would be good for networking.

</comment><comment><USER67> Move out of Michigan -- it would seem to me half your problem or more is looking for a job in the worst job market in America...

</comment><comment><USER68> What skills does your market demand? Given the situation, you may be better served by focusing on adapting to what is needed (presumably more mainstream languages like Java & C#?)

I personally wouldn't want to do either, but it sounds like you have to decide if you want to compromise on technology or moving to a larger market.

</comment><comment><USER69> Other than the suggestions to move, why don't you have any industry connections in your area? Go to networking events, meetups, conferences, etc.

If you can't find any get on meetup.com and create a Python meetup. Even if you get 1 person to come you can say you organized the local meetup group.

</comment><comment><USER70> One thought, only partly in jest -- interacting directly with others is an essential part of networking. Don't post your plea to HN and then figure you'll check back tomorrow to see if it stirred up anything useful. :)

Advice + thoughtful response = conversation => ???

</comment><comment><USER71> A few ideas.

Practice your skills (google "code retreat"). If code flows from your fingertips during interviews, you'll get the offers.

Move to where your skills are in high demand.

Try contracting. Get to know people in your area that do the work you want. Ask them how they landed their jobs.

</comment><comment><USER53> Wait, why are you mentioning FizzBuzz? It's like saying "I can walk in many ways".

<comment><USER72> I think it's a way of saying "I'm not unemployed because I'm incompetent, and I'm not emotionally attached to Python".

<comment><USER53> Sure, but it comes off as "I think FizzBuzz is some sort of significant problem, as attested to by my mention of it", which acts pretty negatively.

You wouldn't expect a carpenter to say "I can both screw _and_ unscrew screws from wood". It's sort of a given if you have the slightest bit of domain knowledge.

<comment><USER73> I took it as a lighthearted, joking statement.

Besides, just the fact that someone knows about FizzBuzz is a good sign in my book (also the fact that they know about HN, but I digress).

<comment><USER53> Heh, I think the fact that they know HN is more of a testament to ability than FizzBuzz indeed :p

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> <http://www.djangojobs.org/> has a huge stack of jobs. Perhaps applying the Python knowledge applied to Django web apps might bring home the bacon.

</comment><comment><USER75> <http://amjith.posterous.com/how-to-find-local-tech-jobs>

I wrote this for Utah. But I'm sure this can be applied to other states.

</comment><comment><USER76> Unsure if you're willing to relocate but there are 2 python job opening in my company.

<http://www.gazaro.com/careers>

</comment><comment><USER77> Move to NYC. We're short on Python devs here and there's plenty of work for anyone who's really good at it.

</comment><comment><USER78> Is moving out of the question?

<comment><AUTHOR> Moving is on the table.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> put your python resume on dice, monster, list location as the bay area. get flown out for interviews, get moving expenses paid.

</comment><comment><USER79> I can FizzBuzz 6 languages in 3 minutes, it's nothing for an engineer to be proud of, I'm a designer. Advice about Haskell? Drop it for now, you need food on your table.

</comment><comment><USER80> helmehn,

I founded Collective Idea (<http://collectiveidea.com>) a successful and growing Ruby shop in West Michigan (Downtown Holland). We are actively looking for programmers, and I know many other companies in the area that are too. The ones I've talked to recently are looking for Ruby, Objective-C, and PHP, but I'm sure there are many, many more.

West Michigan is actually a fantastic place to be a programmer right now. We have dirt-cheap cost of living, beautiful scenery and a number of top-notch software companies working for major companies. (We count Fortune 100 & 500 Companies in our active client list.)

How do you get a job here?

1.) You could have emailed me. My email is on our website, and so are the heads of companies at our competitors. I have interviewed a number of people over the years even when we weren't hiring. I talk with our competitors frequently, so I know who's hiring and will gladly recommend people we can't hire.

Software companies are hiring. Ad agencies are hiring. Manufacturing & Medical companies are hiring. Nobody needs to leave Michigan to get a great job.

2.) Go to meetups.

Grand Rapids has a large number of great meetups and user groups for Ruby (<http://www.meetup.com/mi-ruby/>), Python (<http://www.meetup.com/grpython/>), Linux (<http://grlug.org/>), .NET (<http://wmdotnet.org/>) a new and huge Web Dev group (<http://grwebdev.org/>), Software Craftsmanship (<http://softwaregr.org/>), and many more (<http://conga-wm.org/group-list/>). The annual BarCamp is in a few weeks (<http://barcampgr.org/>) and we even have Y-Combinator style seed accelerator, <http://momentum-mi.com/>.

Go to any of these. Talk to people. You don't need to know "contacts in the industry" you need to meet people. They'll tell you who to talk to, where to apply, and how to brush up your skills.

3.) Write some code.

In the age of GitHub and SourceForge (who has coders in Grand Rapids and is often hiring <http://geek.net/about/careers/>) there's no excuse for not having code that you've written. Find some small project and make it better, or contribute documentation. Don't get discouraged if you can't find a project to hack on right away, you will. Blog about it. Talk about it.

Michigan, and especially West Michigan has some amazing programming shops, some of the best coders I've met anywhere, and everyone is hiring. I know many people have moved away, but there is no reason to anymore. This is a great state, a bit underrated, with an under-the-radar software scene that is ready to explode.

Anyone know Ruby and want to work for a Michigan company in a lakeshore town? Talk to me.

</comment><comment><USER81> Agree with the above and would like to build on it a bit - my background is similar to yours (math undergrad, got the equivalent of a MS-stats via industry training programs, active Python hacker who developes in other languages).

First - don't underestimate the value of your math skills vs. your programming skills; I busted six figures as a stats geek long before my technical skills got into that range. If you're good at math, this is rare & valuable - particularly if you're also good at talking to people. (Those people are called analytics directors and it's a nice way to make a living; plenty of paid hacking time).

Second - agree you should consider leaving MI - NY or Boston sounds particularly a good fit; I'd look at the financial industry. While the work can be soul-sucking, you can build a nice bankroll relatively quickly in that space that can fund other interests.

Third - You should definitely expand your search beyond Python. While Python is my language of choice, I also attend PHP meetups and (infrequently) events targeted at Oracle and Microsoft developers. Here's some (bigoted) commentary comparing the different groups:

\- I've found the Python groups to have smarter hackers relative to the other groups; the talks tend to go much deeper into the underlying technology/computer science behind the topic and the dinner conversation is better.

\- Many folks at the Python meetups are employed in roles where their focus is using other technologies (lots of Java, some C++, several DBA/sysadmins - Oracle, SAP).

\- Recruiter activity is fairly low at the Python meetings (0 - 2 recruiters per event); most recruiters who come are hiring for non-Python roles. I find this amusing, since I've identified this group as the best source for my next analyst hire and/or technical cofounder connection.

\- The PHP group across town is about 30% larger and tends to be a bit "fluffier" in terms of presentation content. The technical skills of the average developer at these events is a full order of magnitude below the Python folks - when discussing equivalent issues, the average PHP developer has a looser grasp of system internals, how the algorithms inside the box work, and subjects such as OOP and functional programming.

\- We have a TON of recruiters and hiring managers working the PHP meetup with relevant web development jobs. There are generally between 3 - <USER2> "announcements" per session; generally from folks with LONG lists of jobs that use PHP. A surprisingly large number of these want simple framework developers, which I see as significantly less rigorous than the stuff my Python buddies are working on.

\- And to fully explore the dark side of the force - I've run into tons of recruiters looking for Java, MSFT, and Oracle people; also seen demand at good pay for closed source packages (SAS, Microstrategy, Saleforce.com). I'm talking about drag and drop stuff that developers would laught at. I've seen SAS analytics rates which rival a director's pay - and aren't very rigorous from a technical perspective (started my career as a SAS programmer working on statistical analysis). Did you do SAS in college?

So - many options, definitely look outside Python and leverage those math skills.

True Confession: Despite having some nicely developed programming chops in Python/PHP/Javascript, my bills are being paid by my analytics day job - <USER3> my relatively high priced existance is being rationalized by (wait for it)... analytical applications I built using Access VBA, Oracle, and Sharepoint. Stuff that makes real developers laugh hysterically. Seriously - we're making millions of dollars a year off of these applications, most of which were cranked out in under 2 - 4 weeks of core dev time. The latest round of miracles does use Python, but the "cash cows" which have protected us from layoffs... straight up SQL and Object Oriented VBA... go figure.

Point is - focus on the application space, use your highly valuable quant skills, and, if you need the cash, don't be afraid to use corporate technologies and lower end stuff.

</comment><comment><USER82> elance.com web design. you can get jobs filling out wordpress themes and probably make $1,000 a month at least

<comment><USER83> The original poster already noted that he had tried ODesk and similar websites (of which Elance is one). I think it would difficult for him/her to make $1,000/month (especially working with WordPress) while competing against developers who live in places with lower costs of living than Michigan.

<comment><USER84> odesk can be tougher than it looks. I landed a couple of ruby / rails based gigs for $50/hr there, but then the work dried up, and all I could find were lower per hour jobs, and sketchy pay when project is completed jobs (without a complete spec).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> Move to India.

</comment><comment><USER86> 1\. Get your projects up at Github..stat! 2\. Find 5 programming 'Friends' do projects for them and use them on resume..helps kick down the hr door. 3\. Mobile is growing as far as needing testers..become familiar with winrun, etc as far as testing mobile apps..I do see those pop up in Western Michigan..

That is about I can offer right now.. my location is NW Indiana..my solution was to pitch to Chicago startups that are established to get something..as its only 1 hour 40 minute train ride to Loop-Chicago..

If you feel comfortable in disclosing more details via email..my gmail account is in my account details

Biggest step you need to do right now is 1 and 2..

</comment><comment><USER87> Have you considered moving to the bay area?

People will lick your balls for your fizzbuzz awesomeness. Can you write tests? doesn't matter, you write python!</comment>


Photographer groups sue Google over Book Search - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20001924-265.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Here is the press release from the ASMP: <http://asmp.org/articles/press- release-10-04-07.html>

Interestingly, it says "The new class action goes beyond Google's Library Project, and includes Google's other systematic and pervasive infringements of the rights of photographers, illustrators and other visual artists."

I wonder what else they may be filing suit over... Image search?</comment>


The "Fred Wilson School Of Blogging" - B-Scan http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/07/the-fred-wilson-school-of-blogging.html

<comment><AUTHOR> _Have a short form blog an a different domain that you own and is permanent. Mine is at fredwilson.vc and hosted on Tumblr. This is where I put the things that fill out the story but don't belong on a long form blog._

I've never quite grasped the value/purpose of a "short form blog". Looking at Mr. Wilson's doesn't really help — a daily photo, or a quote or two? I suppose I could put stuff like that into an aside[1], but twitter seems way more convenient for such things.

Maybe I just have limited bandwidth for the "social" thing.

[1] <http://en.support.wordpress.com/posts/post-formats/>

<comment><USER2> I would suggest that Twitter is a 'short form blog', albeit in a very short form.

Of course, you could certainly use it as not-a-blog, but you could also use tumblr as not-a-blog if you liked.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Cool 3D RTS game (up to 8-players) running in the browser - <AUTHOR> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/conquer-mars/x/4090036 My two good friends have spent months on building a VERY cool 3D game running directly in the browser. Until now they have only been focusing on building the game, but now they wish to turn it into a business. Please tell us what you think about it and how they could improve their current Indigogo funding campaign. It's a little sad that they have not built an audience before they launched their campaign (and on the first day only got 700$ funding), so any good advices about how we could spread the word would be very much appreciated. <comment><AUTHOR> If anyone wants to try out the game, my friends gave me some demo keys for HN users to try out the game (will only work for a few days):

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d0dy1xth</comment>