Ask HN: I will help your startup in exchange for food and a place to stay - <AUTHOR> Hello,
This my third and final time posting this post, first time it was labeled as spam and the second time someone suggested that i edit it and so i did.
I have 4 years remaining in my U.S visa, each visit i can stay 6 months, i don't want to break any U.S rules that's why i want to code for your startup for no money, just food and a place to live in transportation would be nice too but i am not going to take money from you and i am not going to ask your for health insurance or be your employee, i don't want to break any rules, i have +8 years of experience in JS, PHP, Ruby mainly as a full stack web developer i also do game development using Unity3D + C#, i'm a Musician since over 15 years at my free time and i can design sounds and soundtracks i work with many DAWs, i'm bilingual i speak fluent Arabic and English beside having many more skills.
I am doing this because i live in a war torn country, some issues happened and i've lost all my savings, I'm 31 years old and i don't want to spend the rest of my life in this place, i've been to California in 2014 and i loved it so much, i can't get an H1B visa because i don't have a university degree although i have a high school diploma and a college diploma in business management and e-commerce.
If you'd like to interview me please send me an e-mail to firstname.lastname@example.com, thank you.
Thank you for reading my post.
ps: Please if you can't help me at least try not to be negative in the comments i already have enough negativity going on in my life and i could really really use some motivation, but after all you are free to write whatever you want of course and i appreciate it.
One more thing, thank you "dang" for telling me about the spam filter and helping me. <comment><USER2> Why U.S.? I understand that you don´t want to live in your country, but there are many others countries. Many of them has a much flexible immigration system where you can live legally if you find a job and where there are many jobs opportunities if you know how to code. I mean, instead of working almost illegally for free in the U.S., you can be legally and earning good money in another country. I´m from Uruguay and this will work here (also, you will have health insurance, as it is mandatory in any job of any type. Also, it is common that tech companies hire forgeries that don´t know Spanish, as most people know English, is not a problem). I know that this is also the case in many other countries.

<comment><USER3> Question to HN: What are the easiest countries for people from <anywhere> to move to as a software developer? Eg; easiest visa rules, there are companies hiring, people aren't egregiously racist?

<comment><USER4> The Netherlands. The only requirement is that you learn Dutch at a very basic level. Apart from that everybody, and I mean everybody, speaks English and the standards of living are among the highest in the world. Sure beats living on a mattress in some illegal housing in L.A.

<comment><USER5> I've been living in the Netherlands for nearly 7 years and haven't even tried to learn Dutch yet. Completely concur that it's an easy and wonderful country to live in, and there's _tons_ of work for good software developers.

<comment><USER6> They must love you there :-). I lived in Belgium/W Flanders and some people were getting angry that I don't know Dutch...

<comment><USER7> Language is an extremely touchy subject in Flanders, not something exclusive for West Flanders. Not everybody in Flanders is like that, but it is certainly not a minority also. My father is (West-)Flemish and my mother is French so because of that I always looked at it in other view then most people who grew up in Flanders.

I'm West-Flemish myself and still live here, but I also get my share of snarky remarks of blogging in English or reading stuff primary in English. If you have a website with some text in Dutch and you make a spelling mistake then you will certainly get (angry) mails about it. Or when you use an English word instead of a Dutch, for some that is another capital offence.

If that sounds ridiculous keep in mind we have people proverbial running after busses and filling complaints when the bus company dares to advertise something with English words in it.

Ans seeing how many Dutch related contests Flemish participants win, I have sometimes the feeling that we are better in Dutch than our neighbours in the Netherlands. So yeah the Dutch language is really important in this part of the world.

For some things I can see the benefits of being able to promote (or even force) the local language. I'm personally convinced that from a social POV it helps when your neighbour understands you and speaks the same languages.

But on the other hand in the global age we are living we shouldn't overestimate the importance of it. It sometimes depresses me if I see how much energy gets lost in those kind of discussions.

<comment><USER6> I mean, I didn't mind learning it, in fact I can understand it pretty well on paper. But understanding spoken Dutch/Flemish was nearly impossible, and I could not make proper sentences for a conversation.

The people were very nice (like, almost Hot Fuzz nice :-D), probably why the few who berated my Dutch speaking abilities stood out :-)

<comment><USER7> I heard it is a very difficult language to master if you are foreign. It took my mother some time to be fluent at it. Also have some former colleague's - Bulgarian/Russian - who even after 10 years of living here still have difficulties.

Fortunately a lot of people don't mind if you aren't fluent in it as they value the effort more then being 100% correct. And those who react hostile just don't understand how difficult the language is. Hell even natives have sometimes problems with all the grammatical rules the Dutch language has!

Hot fuzz is really one of my favourite movies, then again I'm a bit of an anglophile regarding movies/series/... . :-) I lived btw also in Blankenberge for 12 years and born in Bruges. Nowadays I live at the other end of West Flanders.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I am an Indian national on H1B with a top company in US. By all means please do not come to US with H1B. The U.S. has broken immigration system. My visa is locked down to my employer and I cannot ask for a raise or get promoted. I accepted the lowest payment as per DOL from my employer just to stay and work in US with my 6 year H1B validity. By all means apply for a Canada work visa. They have now something called Express Entry system. You can also apply for permanent residency. US immigration system is broken and they are not going to fix it anytime soon. Immigrate to Canada. H1B is indentured servitude.

I have started my Express Entry application and very soon I will say goodbye to US , I don't mind the cold in Canada. I will have freedom to change jobs, won't be an indentured servant. I will also get permanent residency fast. US green card for Indian citizen is around 10 years backlogged.

I suggest it's best for you to apply for the Canadian Express Entry for skilled workers.

<comment><USER9> I'm sorry you're having such a bad experience here, I really am. As an American, you're right, our immigration system is horribly broken; ten years for a green card is average for most immigrants, if not fast for many. US firms, especially tech firms, use H1B to do exactly what you said, acquire people who are effectively indentured servants. Don't like it? Go back to your home country. Don't want to accept the bottom-basement pay? Someone else will, there are plenty of non-Americans to exploit!

And at the same time they lobby the Congress for an increase in H1B visas claiming there aren't enough US workers, they send out ads asking for ten years experience in HTML5 and CPU design, offering $30k for an "entry level" position, and say they can't find anyone here to fill it. Of course not, your requirements are insane and the wage is equally insane.

Yes, there are plenty of companies using H1B ethically, but for every ethical H1B, there are 5 unethical ones. It's a disservice to both American workers AND foreign workers.

PS: I'm not anti-immigration. I'm very much pro-immigration. What's that? You're intelligent, hard working, and want to come to my country to work your butt off and get rich? COME ON OVER! All I want is an immigration system that's fair to everyone, both those coming in to get a fair shake and have protections, and those of us already here, preventing immigrants from being used as cheap replacement labor.

<comment><USER10> As someone from India, Its very nice to hear your thoughts. That's true, tech. companies exploit people, their salaries are too low. Mostly they hire us for cheap labour, not because they can't find talents in america and we are do at it :) I know 95% indian friends who is America or not technically good. They are just close to the management people. 5% of are good.

ps : I never visited aboard, don't want to travel aboard just because i'm a cheap labour :)

<comment><USER10> <typo-1> and we are good at it :)

<typo-2> who is in America are not technically

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you have 8 years of experience, wait till you get 9 years. If you do, then even if you have a year of college, you can qualify for H1B. Typically, 3 years of experience equals 1 year of college. As is popular myth, a college degree or education is not a requirement that is set in stone for H1B.

Also, money or not, if you're working in US in capacity that usually someone would get compensated for, even for a company outside the US, you need to have work permit in the country.

If I were you I would look for jobs within Middle East like Qatar, UAE. Jobs related to tech are there, US universities are there, and the requirements with immigration are basically "if employer wants you get in." Rack up a few years of experience, then getting H1B would be viable.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, I second this. I've never been to the Middle East and I haven't heard the best things about living/working there as a foreigner, but it's absolutely doable - I knew a couple guys in Nepal who would go to Saudi Arabia and Dubai for work (cattle ranches or something), visa and all. Other folks from India and other places who would go for tech work, engineering, etc - all over the Middle East (even Oman) and it's not so bad. There are stable, thriving economies there.

<comment><USER12> Please do not suggest this unless you know the full story. The conditions are bad, the pay is terrible, and the legal environment is most unpleasant.

And due to cyber security laws, you will notice no one is going to sat more than that in a GCC state.

<comment><USER13> Both are true. My experience (primarily from UAE and Qatar) is that, if you have skills that are in short supply then you can get excellent, tax-free salaries with fantastic benefits.

If you're there for manual/low skilled work then the pay and conditions (relative to, say, Europe) can be appalling.

<comment><USER12> Exactly, I can give more detail, but for obvious reasons I will not.

Given what he posted, he is either from Syria or Yemen. And this is why, knowing the breakdown that you summarized, he will most certainly face a tough time.

I work with many people on both sides of this spectrum, and hence my warning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> You seem a highly skilled and driven individual whose talents would be savoured, and rewarded with good money, by many companies in many different countries around the world.

Do not work for free.

Once more, please, do not work for free.

1\. You don't have to work for free, far from it. You have in-demand skills and experience in a global job market. You can make _really_ good money in many, many desirable locations around the world.

2\. I would be _extremely_ wary of anyone who would take you up on the basis you're proposing. Anyone who would give you such 'charity'[1] may have _very_ questionable morals - 'oh sure, I'll take this desperate[2] man's skills, make potentially a LOT of money off of him without giving him his due reward, and that's completely fine with me, because that's what he said he wanted'. Imagine the sort of person who would utter such a sentence - do you want to tie your livelihood for the next however many years to such a person? I'm sure you know, there is a whole class of criminal activity in developed countries which exploits illegal immigrants based around this very premise. DO NOT put yourself on that path.

3\. Never put yourself at the mercy of any one person or organisation for your survival. Your current situation is awful, but what kind of life would that be to move to? How will you feel waking up in a morning in a bed someone is letting you sleep in, eating some food they gave you for breakfast, then going to work all day only to guarantee an evening meal and bed when you return home. Repeating every day for a long time. That is not a life.

[1] That's what they might justify it as, at least. The reality is the opposite.

[2] I really don't mean to offend here, I know that's not what you are, at your core. But that's how they will see you, and that's the position you will put yourself in and indeed what you will become by following such a path.

<comment><USER3> I don't think `davnicwil` is _wrong_ here, but I do think it's overly negative. A lot of immigrants through the course of history have fled truly terrible situations and ended up in pretty bad situations where they were disadvantaged, but at least able to get their feet on the ground and build something up.

I agree that I would _guess_ you can do better, especially looking at other countries (there are so many out there! and wonderful people everywhere). But worse comes to worse, don't be afraid that the sky will fall down on you if you can't find better than this arrangement. Just keep working hard and leaping for better (and do keep your eyes peeled as there absolutely could be people who would take advantage of you).

<comment><USER14> I agree with you, but my main message isn't that he can't do it, it's simply that he needn't, and moreover he definitely shouldn't.

I can't relate to what he's going through but I know he's looking for an out from his current situation, under a great deal of stress, and from that vantage point it's usually difficult to see how varied your options are.

I meant for my overall message to be positive - OP, you do not have to resort to this plan! There is virtually zero chance that this plan is your best option. Assure yourself of that, and take a serious look at the vastly better alternative options you have - some great ideas for which are on this thread!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Not trying to be negative, but my understanding has always been that U.S. immigrations doesn't care whether or not money exchanges hands. If you are doing work that a U.S. citizen would normally get paid for you are still technically "taking a job" from a local.

While I am sure there are conditions that will allow you to come and stay in the country, I would be careful what your arrangement is with any potential startup and how it is worded.

Perhaps another individual on HN has more insight into U.S. visa rules and can provide better guidance?

Good luck nonetheless!

<comment><USER16> I also very much hope you find some way of working things out, but there is another thing you should be aware of:

> just food and a place to live in transportation would be nice too but i am > not going to take money from you and i am not going to ask your for health > insurance or be your employee, i don't want to break any rules

There is a good chance that, as well as raising immigration law issues, this arrangement could also cause your non-employer to violate federal and state minimum wage laws.

I second the advice of others who suggest consulting an immigration attorney. This is a challenging and important problem, and it really demands the advice of a professional. If you don't think you can afford one you should: 1) schedule an initial consultation with a _good_ immigration attorney anyway. You should get at least this first conversation for free. (And beware: there are many truly awful immigration attorneys. Do a little research.) 2) Look to see if there are any law schools in your area that have immigration law clinics. They may well take your case for free and, although you will be assisted by law students, they will be supervised closely by faculty and will probably provide you with very good advice.

Good luck.

<comment><USER17> Yep. Not paying people properly for work is a crime. I know in California that's a big deal. See, e.g., the crackdown a couple years back on "interships" that were just free jobs. And my guess is that immigration authorities would see food and lodging as payment, meaning both employer and employee would be violating the law.

However, I don't think there's anything illegal about paying an independent contractor who's living in another country. So my suggestion to codeornocode would be to find some sort of work in the US that could be done remotely from some safe third country. Immigration authorities care a lot about displacement of their own citizens, but in the places I've lived they don't give a hoot about somebody who is on a working vacation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Unfortunately this is most certainly in violation of immigration laws. And chances are at some point, you will be banned from entering the US for a minimum of 10 years. I actually know 2 people that this happened to, one of them a personal friend of mine. Immigration/Customs officials do not need proof to ban you, all they need to do is suspect it. If you enter the US with no plan, no money, etc, they will suspect, rightfully so, that you are working in violation of your visa and you will get banned on the spot, especially if you visit so often.

My suggestion is to not do this. Enter as a tourist and enjoy your time in the US. If you want to work in the US, do it legally. Do work on an open source project and try to network and get a job that that way. Maybe try to join a huge company like Google or Facebook from abroad and transfer. That's your best way, especially if you get an L1 visa.

<comment><USER19> I suspect you are on a BUsiness (B-1?) visa and what you propose to do, even if no cash exchanges hands is considered compensation and therefore employment. As others have pointed out, you could end up in serious trouble with US immigration authorities- the 10 year ban is just the beginning, it could end up with a lifetime ban!

It is just not worth the risk and definitely not someone of your caliber needs to. There are other countries where you could fare better. Perhaps Canada?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I didn't expect this to be #1 post this is kind of you people, I would love to thank everyone who posted and is posting midway replying to comments with "Thank you" i found out i'd be spamming the comments in here, so this is a huge THANK YOU to everyone who wrote and will write.

<comment><USER20> Congrats on the repost. You may want to include more detailed contact information in your profile.

All the best to you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Personally, I'd go to the European Union. There are a few very good reasons:

\- Once you get citizenship in one country, you can freely work on any of the other countries, or move there and live there. Creating a much bigger area of opportunity for jobs. You could have citizenship in France, and work at a cool startup in Amsterdam

\- Though it causes a lot of political instability currently (immigrants constantly drowning in the ocean, trying to get across), getting a visa here isn't that hard, especially when you're from a conflict zone and can show you have a good chance to get a job.

\- Europe is pretty awesome.

<comment><USER22> I agree with your points, but one small nitpick: the US is almost as big as the whole EU - 300M vs. 500M citizens. So it's not much larger area of opportunity, just a little bit larger.

<comment><USER23> 167% the size of the US is more than a little bit, non?

<comment><USER24> Same order of magnitude. EU and US each have their pros and cons. But the EU is absolutely worth considering.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Disclaimer: I scanned the comments and couldn't see anyone talking about this, but please forgive me if I've missed this as it does seem like an obvious point.

Coding for a startup and not receiving pay, is likely still not legal. In my experience with US immigration (I'm Australian, living in Canada...traveling to the US from time to time) they don't really care about the money, they really just are about if you're taking away work that could have otherwise been done by a US citizen. Which leads me to the point of:

The fact you're doing the work for free is very likely to be irrelevant, its just the fact that you're doing work that is an issue, irrespective of the reimbursement you're receiving.

<comment><USER26> I think you've got it right here and I hope this gets seen.

US Border Patrol denied my entry to the US once because a coworker and I were coming over to oversee the installation of a number of electrical devices our company built/designed/tested and shipped to the client. We didn't have the adequate paperwork to state that this was a contractual "job" and we were simply there to assist local tradespeople in the installation should they have any questions since, you know, we designed the thing.

When we were turned around at the border it was explained: without the paperwork to detail what we were doing, that this was agreed upon ahead of time and likely a bunch of other legal matters they had no method of knowing whether we were hired to save wages that would otherwise go to an American citizen. We weren't being paid for this work, it couldn't be done by anyone else (short of them taking the design work and learning it from the ground up over several months) and we were _still_ denied entry.

OP, work, even if free, is still work. Contact legal aid for what you are and are not allowed to do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> > I have 4 years remaining in my U.S visa, each visit i can stay 6 months, i > don't want to break any U.S rules that's why i want to code for your startup > for no money, just food and a place to live in

Wouldn't that be compensation, technically? Also, I'd expect a company to be required to pay someone at least a minimum wage, but I could be mistaken.

> I am doing this because i live in a war torn country, some issues happened > and i've lost all my savings

Dude, forget the US for now. Your first priority is to get a safe place to live in and a stable job so you can build your financial life back. Try other countries, such as the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland. These have way better immigration policies, specially for people in tech.

Then, when you are ready, try California again. Having no money will be an obstacle otherwise. How are you going to get translated, notarized documentation otherwise? Not to mention any kind of fees, plus transportation.

> i can't get an H1B visa because i don't have a university degree

Then don't, try another route. Such as via a big US multinational company. Or get the degree, if you follow the suggestion to go to an "easier" country first. You are young, you have time.

</comment><comment><USER28> Have you considered India?

While a work visa is not likely to be easy, the current tech scene has huge demand for programmers of all kinds. Especially if you're expert in Unity/Full-stack.

If it'll help, let me know here, and I'll connect you to someone in this very area (game programming, Unity SDK programming).

Other options would be Canada, Mexico, Vietnam, or anywhere else you can work remotely.

For visa details see [http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa- india....](http://www.immihelp.com/nri/indiavisa/employment-visa-india.html)

<comment><USER29> definitely post to [https://www.facebook.com/groups/delhistartups/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/delhistartups/) or [https://www.facebook.com/groups/blrstartups.connect/](https://www.facebook.com/groups/blrstartups.connect/)

If you want any more information about India - dont hesitate to mail me. It's a great startup ecosystem and great food. Yes, we have our shit - but fairly democratic and good opportunities can be had in general.

Tech work in India can be used as a stepping stone to the middle east, Singapore or the US.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Not trying to be negative but the reality here is you can't legally just work for food and shelter in the US. Whoever makes you work that way is very likely breaking federal and/state laws even if you are not. At the very least you will have to get paid prevailing minimum wage. And the employer can only hire you if you are authorized to work.

A very narrow exception exists for unpaid interns. But that requires one to also be authorized to work in one form or the other for e.g. as a student who needs work experience in his/her field of study.

</comment><comment><USER31> If you want to optimize for money, I would recommend Zurich. It is the only place in Europe where net salaries compare to NYC or the Bay-Area.

If you are interested in moving here, shoot me a mail. Alternatively, check out my blogpost on medium: "Eight reasons why I moved to Switzerland" ([https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i- moved-t...](https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to- switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90))

<comment><USER32> I agree but I want to bat for Sweden too. Wages are lower, but you don't have to pay for health insurance at all, all medical care is free and high quality. Also, Switzerland is not a member of the E.U. But Switzerland is great, I hear from relatives living there.

<comment><USER31> "Also, Switzerland is not a member of the E.U." You're saying this as if it would be a bad thing...

Also, paying 300-500 CHF per month for health insurance out of pocket might sound not to bad considering the fact that your net-salary is probably 3000 CHF higher here. (In Switzerland you pay 16-22% as income-taxes compared to 60% in Sweden).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> If you're from a war torn country have you considered applying for asylum? I know cases were asylum was granted to guys from my old country, India, which is by no means a war torn country.

I'm going through the immigration process right now and everyday Canada looks like a good option. I know it's not the US but it's still an awesome western country and has a reasonable immigration system.

Good luck!

<comment><USER34> Highly recommend Canada ... Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal all have decent (albeit small) tech scenes and are great places to live.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I run a startup in Singapore. There is a huge shortage of skilled developers in Singapore. Please do email me at firstname.lastname@example.com if you want to consider Singapore (I saw another comment suggesting Singapore). i know friends/startups looking for developers here and in Hong Kong (another option). Good luck mate!

</comment><comment><USER36> I work in Germany, had the option to work in the US but decided against it, I find the visa regime too strict, and unless you land a great job in a great company in a good city(you don't want to live in the middle of nowhere) it's not worth the trouble.

There are plenty of Jobs which you can get without knowing German, and many employers provide free classes where you can learn some basic German. IMO knowing a new language is also a very marketable skill depending on where you are from. Depending on the company you may get 25-30 paid day offs in a year.

You can get paid well if you are qualified/experienced. Living costs are low as well, I live in Berlin in a spacious 3 room apartment in a great area ([http://i.imgur.com/qLqzqN7.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/qLqzqN7.jpg)). The infrastructure is amazing. My daily commute is 20 mins door to door (subway or cycle) and I don't need a car at all. My daughter goes to daycare for free, and the healthcare system though it has its quirks, works quite well.

Getting a blue card is easy and with your qualifications you should be able to get it quickly, with the blue card you can travel outside the EU and come back within 12 months, no questions asked.I just took a 3-week vacation back home and plan to take another one this year.

If you wanna explore some options I would be more than happy to help, drop me an email at email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER37> What you can do is to move to country like Ecuador (Cuenca, let's say) or Thailand, or Indonesia (Bali), or Phillipines. It's relatively easy to live there on a long term.

You can find a job on oDesk (upwork now). I did it before, I earned $3K/month and worked 5 hours a day only. It's a good money for these countries (well and for US too).

Just work remotely, live there, save money. One day you'll find a job and will legally move to U.S. (seems like you'll be qualified after 9 years of professional experience).

<comment><USER38> If you want to work in Indonesia or Thailand you need a local company to sponsor your visa and work permit, which makes remote work tricky. In years past you used to be able to just leave the country every 60 days or whatever and hop right back over the border, but you can't get away with that these days.

Doesn't make any sense, but that's how it is.

</comment></comment><comment> bmir-alum-007 To help make "ends meet," it's possible to get some food, healthcare and monetary assistance from federal, state, county and city programs, often managed by each county's social services agency.

Firstly, there's the Refugee Cash Assistance (RCA) program: [https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/debs/calworks/Pages/refugee...](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa/debs/calworks/Pages/refugees.aspx)

Here are some other California refugee programs: [http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/refugeeprogram/](http://www.dss.cahwnet.gov/refugeeprogram/)

List of other refugee programs: [http://www.visaus.com/benefits.html](http://www.visaus.com/benefits.html)

Next, food aid (food stamps) is called CalFresh (req 5 yrs of residency for noncitizens)

After that, there's MediCal (state-run health insurance available at the county social services agency) (unsure of requirements)

Lastly, General Assistance (emergency cash, a pittance) (only 15 days of residency is required). You can sign up for it at a local social services agency office.

Here's the main website for Santa Clara county: [https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa](https://www.sccgov.org/sites/ssa)

(Beware of name clash: federal Social Security is also called SSA. I hear any sort of Social Security benefits usually takes a very long time and lots of paperwork to get.)

GA policies: [https://www.sccgov.org/ssa/general/gachap06.pdf](https://www.sccgov.org/ssa/general/gachap06.pdf)

Other California counties' websites are listed here: [http://www.counties.org/](http://www.counties.org/)

</comment><comment><USER39> Please consider India as one possibility - I have good connections and can help you if interested.

Yadav.rakesh (at) gmail

No need to work for free - definitely not when you know how to program and build systems. We don't seem to have enough of those.

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER40> Please consider having at least an initial consultation with an immigration lawyer before trying to do this. The initial consult is usually a 20-30 minute phone call and is offered for free by many attorneys. Your intentions are good, but it would be sad if you were blacklisted by immigration for any reason.

</comment><comment><USER41> If the US visa doesn't work out try going to a country with less archaic immigration law. i.e anywhere else.

Specifically Australia, Canada, Germany all have working holiday visas which are flexible and would let you do this sort of thing. Generally anything to do with the US and visas is a bad day.

<comment><USER42> I would suggest Singapore too. Great emerging startup scene, very quick to get working visas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I actually could use your help and would provide a nice shelter, food, salary in an awesome town here in Germany.

if you are interested, let me know.

<comment> bmir-alum-007 Germany also has single-payer socialized healthcare IIRC. The US has Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare which isn't so great, and often doesn't include dental or vision care. For a long-term living situation, that's probably more important.

Also, the US immigration and refugee systems are arbitrary, byzantine, gotcha minefields that can suck would-be visitors into indeterminate imprisonment or expelled for minor paperwork errors or unintentionally breaking one of a billion unclear rules.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I knew a guy who was hasseled entering the US with some tools because he planned to do renovations on his own house that he owned outright.

The border guards said that unless he was a citizen or had a work visa then he was not allowed to work on fixing up his own house, and would have to hire a local to do it.

tl;dr working for "just food and a place to live" is still technically working, and unless you have permission to do so it would be risky for all parties involved.

<comment><USER45> > then he was not allowed to work on fixing up his own house

Then tourists are not allowed to cook and must go to restaurants, and coding for open source is also illegal? I think guards were wrong.

<comment><USER46> There's a grey area. Making your own bed is ok. Renovating a series of houses to sell on isn't. It's not totally clear where the boundary is but I think the guards have some discretion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Have you tried applying for refugee status?

I don't know if you'd be allowed to work, but instead of taking grants from the US as a refugee, you could maybe convince them that you are a skilled- refugee who is leaving your war-torn country and you would like to work instead of being given a handout.

Something tells me that the red-tape in the US won't allow this, but it is worth a shot, especially if you speak to an immigration lawyer about it.

</comment><comment><USER48> There is quite a lot of US visa related guesswork going on in this thread - please do seek expert advice. In my experience the application and compliance problems look much less scary when you talk to someone who does this every day. Lawyers are expensive, but try: [http://teleborder.com](http://teleborder.com) (YC startup)

And on the global search for alternatives, should US not work out, here's some overview data of 110 most startup-friendly cities in the world: [http://my.teleport.org/](http://my.teleport.org/) \-- and a mobile app for searching among them: [http://teleport.org/mobile](http://teleport.org/mobile) (visa data layers coming soon, too, but dozens of other cost & quality of life criteria already there)

</comment><comment><USER49> I wouldn't want to hire you because I wouldn't want to get in trouble. I also wouldn't want you to get in trouble. There are alternatives being discussed here that would allow a win/win instead of a lose/lose: pick a different country, get another year of experience, and play by the rules.

</comment><comment><USER50> Hey USA is not the only place in the word where you can develope your self, with that CV to can try India , China , Shangia places where you can find a LOT of opportunities.

</comment><comment><USER51> Hello, upon reading this post I felt great sorrow for your situation. I have seen many scams,(I do not believe you to be involved in any kind of scam), and known many people with visa issues.. I believe you are a truthful, honest person who deserves the best...as well as having the best intentions towards others. While I am in Texas and have can not offer support at this time...I do know a few people in California and Oregon who may be able to help you...I am sending your post/email to them momentarily. Are there any other states have an interest in regarding living/working etc.? Please let me know and I will see what I can do to connect you with assistance.

Also, please keep us up to date regarding your situation.

Respectfully,

D. Virgillo

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your kind comment and help, i appreciate it, most of the comments here and the e-mails i got made me consider somewhere else, when i posted this post i only saw California in my head even though i don't mind going elsewhere at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Talk to a lawyer that actually knows the stuff. Also, if the situation looks that bleak regarding the U.S, please consider another country that gives you a better legal standing. Broaden your search. There is more to the world than North America and Europe.

</comment><comment><USER53> Here are my suggestions.

1\. Take a deep breath and be calm. It will be ok. You have a visa which is the option to move. you are in a good place already.

2\. Think of the most stable (infrastructure and cost wise) country you can access visa free, go there and try getting a remote position in the US. With that, you can fun living a fairly stable life in the mean time.

3\. DO NOT risk your B1/B2 by trying to trick the system. Aim for a maximum of 4 months/year in the US on it.

4\. With your B1/B2 you can travel to Mexico and Turkey for a while too.

Finally, DO NOT risk your B1/B2 and always have a decent reason when entering. the paper you have in your passport is merely for the CHANCE to gain entry at the immigration border and not a visa in itself.

It will be ok bud!

</comment><comment><USER54> Sorry to say, but I don't think what you're asking for is legal. You cannot be employed just for food/place to stay. If you need to work in the US, it's not possible with your visa (which I'm assuming is B1/B2).

</comment><comment><USER55> How about working for a startup tackling poverty alleviation globally, based in beautiful Cebu, Philippines? Visas here are much easier to get and the startup scene is growing rapidly. We're looking for talented full stack developers to work with Go language, Python/Django, Java, Docker, and Microservices. Our customers are doing life changing work globally, including in the Middle East. [https://www.engagespark.com/about/#join](https://www.engagespark.com/about/#join) . And two of us co-founders based here are from the US originally.

</comment><comment><USER56> I don't think this is even legal; I'm sorry for your situation, but you must see that if this sort of thing were allowed, it would pave the way for slavery.

</comment><comment><USER57> I'm not in the US, but some people here are.

What about working on some open source projects? I don't think that would fall into the danger zone of immigration law(since you wouldn't be working "for" anyone).

Alternatively, maybe a company here can offer you an internship? The visa requirements could be less.

Does anyone here know an immigration lawyer that could help this person get out of a bad situation?

</comment><comment><USER58> Email sent. Let's get the ball rolling and see what you've got.

</comment><comment><USER59> Try O-1 Visa. O-1 visa is getting more popular as an alternative to H-1B. O-1 visa does not require a university degree, and I think you have a good shot depending on how well you put yourself out there.

[http://www.quora.com/O1-Visa](http://www.quora.com/O1-Visa)

</comment><comment><USER60> > i can't get an H1B visa because i don't have a university degree

I have exactly the same problem. I'm from Russia and I don't have university degree so I can't get H1B visa right now (but I will when I have 12 years of exp).

US is really hard country to get in.

I relocated to Stockholm, Sweden since Sweden doesn't require university degree for work permit. Software developers are in shortage occupation list.

Sweden is easiest wealthy western country to get in.

If you will bored in Sweden, you can later apply to UK (as far as I understand Tier 2 General doesn't require degree either).

You can get your job in Hong Kong and Singapore without university degree but it will be a bit harder.

So I recommend Sweden. It's better to be normal employee in Stockholm than working for food in California.

Also, don't stay for a few months in US on tourist visa. Next time they ban you to issue new visa!

<comment><USER32> Native Swede here, I agree. Sweden is quite easy to get into if you are on the shortage occupation list, which you are.

Once in Sweden you will either fall in love with the on the surface reserved people, or if you don't, work 5 years, apply for citizenship, then be a Swedish citizen (best passport in the world for traveling along with U.K. passport) and automatically a E.U. citizen, which means you can work anywhere in the E.U. without any limits at all. As a E.U. citizen and especially Swedish citizen it can be easier to get into the U.S. and Canada, I hear anecdotally. There are also sizable communities of almost all war affected ethnicities in Sweden you can socialize with. Stockholm is the most international city, you can live there a life time on English alone and not feel left out too much. Everywhere also you can still live on English alone, but the social life with locals will suffer if you don't learn Swedish, IMHO. All Swedes know English, but you will miss out on little chats etc. Also minorities often communicate more in Swedish than their native tongue, especially children of immigrants, so paradoxically to connect with your own kin, you also need to learn Swedish. Integration issues varies from place to place, there are some problems with racism especially towards people of color, but far from as much as in Germany. Also the racism is kind of specific and weird, if you are black but from the U.S. you are still almost celebrated by the Swedish locals.

TL/DR: Sweden is awesome. Easy to come in, if you love it, you will love it a lot. If you don't, become citizen then move on to the rest of the E.U.

<comment><USER60> I agree with you in general. But as non-EU citizen, I should work 4 years here in Sweden. Then I get only permanent residence.

After I get permanent residence, I should live ANOTHER 5 years to get Swedish citizenship.

So it's 9 years in total, not 5 years.

<comment><USER32> You are correct, mea culpa. However, with permanent residence for 5 years, you get similar rights as E.U. citizens and can work in E.U. countries except for Denmark, Ireland and the U.K.

[http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private- individuals/E...](http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private- individuals/EU-citizens-and-long-term-residents/Long-term-residents.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Best of luck to you, I'm sorry for where the system has gotten in the way. If I could, I would offer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> >>>> I am doing this because i live in a war torn country

I think your best option is to ask for Asylum [1]

[1] [http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees- asylum/asylum](http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum)

</comment><comment><USER63> Honestly, I think you will be more successful if you spend your time and energy looking for employers that could sponsor your visa to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc...

I'm from a very remote part of Brazil and I used www.seek.com.au to get a programming job in Australia in 2008.. The company ran some remote tests with me and paid for all the relocation costs. You should try this.

Also you can try to get a permanent visa even before you try to move there. You can use the Immigration Points Calculator ([https://www.wannamigrate.com/tools/](https://www.wannamigrate.com/tools/)) to know if you have the basic requirements for these same countries.

</comment><comment><USER64> You may be a good candidate for an Australian visa. Not sure where it goes, but this form allows you to register your interest in becoming a skilled migrant.

[https://skillselect.gov.au/SKILLSELECT/ExpressionOfInterest/...](https://skillselect.gov.au/SKILLSELECT/ExpressionOfInterest/PreReg/Start)

Also, there _may_ be nothing stopping you from living in the US but working remotely for a company in another country. That may be a good path to getting an Australian/European/other company to sponsor you for skilled migration.

Best of luck!

</comment><comment><USER65> Why not just apply for college in The Netherlands? (I recommend NHL or if your sciencey Twente). Or Germany? You can live comfortably on a part time job and can use the degree to get into the U.S. if you want.

</comment><comment><USER66> If U.S. doesn't work out, give Australia a try, a lot more lenient.

<comment><USER67> Unless you are granted asylum and therefor have to live in a prison camp...

<comment><USER68> The refugees in the prison camps haven't been granted asylum.

<comment><USER67> That's not true. Even those who are granted asylum have to live in these camps and are not allowed to live in Australia. "You will not make Australia your home."

Also, holding children in prison camps unfit for human habitation, because they have not been granted asylum status, isn't that much better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> If you need a professional degree for potentially being able to get an H1B sponsorship, I would suggest signing up for harvard extension >> [https://www.extension.harvard.edu/](https://www.extension.harvard.edu/)

Anybody can start class and you qualify to join signup for a professional degree after getting A in 3 or more classes. Good luck !

</comment><comment><USER69> If you need a professional degree for potentially being able to get an H1B sponsorship, I would suggest signing up for harvard extension >> [https://www.extension.harvard.edu/](https://www.extension.harvard.edu/)

Anybody can start class and you qualify to join signup for a professional degree after getting A in 3 or more classes. Good luck !

</comment><comment><USER70> You should consider traveling to the US on your visa and then applying for refugee status: [http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees- asylum/refugees](http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/refugees)

You can contact the Helsinki Citizens Assembly or the International Organization for Migration for advice.

</comment><comment><USER71> With 8 years of experience, you should be able to get a H1B. Every 3 years of experience adds 1 year to your education. You need 16 years of education to get a H1B. I too do not have a degree and managed to get a H1B. The challenge is to get through the lottery.

However, as many others have suggested, I too would recommend you to try another country, where visa rules are relaxed.

</comment><comment><USER72> I am not 100% sure about the rules, but I think work for free is still considered work. If you have a tourist visa, you are not allowed to work for a client in the USA, even for free.

If you have all this time, why not develop an app and sell it on the internet? You can always say you're working for your own company back home.

</comment><comment> rebekah-aimee Look up this organization called "World Relief." They might take you on and help you with visa troubles. This is definitely in their department and they're super nice people; I volunteered with one of their families for a while.

Good luck; we're rooting for you.

</comment><comment><USER73> Hey why don't you come to Costa Rica? you can ask for political asylum here and work for tech companies. I'm an engineer and have always worked for american companies here. Also you can try New Zealand which is very similar in tech jobs like Costa Rica.

</comment><comment><USER74> China(Shanghai, Beijing) will be a good place to go to find IT job that require English communication (good pay), and don't have to worry about visa issue. Just go to linkedin, and find local recruiter there.

</comment><comment><USER75> You can apply to jobs in companies which are targeting diversity and experience like Rakuten Inc. It's in Japan one of the safest countries. If you got the appropriate experience they will hire you.

</comment><comment><USER76> I advise you try to find a job in Germany. I'm a brazilian myself and got a job here.

For a skilled Ruby dev with a diploma(for a third world country, this is a requirement) you can get around here pretty easily.

<comment><USER46> Also Germany has pretty much free universities if you can qualify as a resident which I guess you would if you work a few years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> I'm pretty sure USCIS doesn't care if you're paid or not; the idea is that you're still potentially taking a job from an American citizen. You might want to be careful.

</comment><comment><USER67> Consider coming to Germany. Berlin has a nice startup scene and both English and Arabic speaking communities.

I don't know how easy it is to get a Visa in your particular situation!

</comment><comment><USER78> Hi OP. Thanks for posting. Now let us tell why you're technically wrong about everything and we know more than you, and we've never had a girlfriend.

</comment><comment><USER79> It bums me out that this is so complicated for you. It also bums me out that I can't think of anything I could do to help you. I hope things work out.

</comment><comment><USER80> if your a good programmer why not land a job and let the company you work for take care of the visa we employ many chinese workers at our company and they all stay here visa paid for by the company, there is some real world infactuality in your premise, any company who "would" want you to work for them for free, as a skilled worker, should also want to pay you and pay for your via.

</comment><comment><USER81> Hey, what kind of visa do you currently have?

<comment><AUTHOR> I have a B1/B2 visa

<comment><USER81> Some examples of legitimate and temporary business activities that people have conducted on a B-1 visa are:

attending business conferences and meetings

conducting independent research, such as feasibility or marketing studies

engaging in "start-up" activities (for example, exploring U.S. investment opportunities)

Source: [http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/a-b-1-visa- business-v...](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/a-b-1-visa-business- visits-the-us-do-you-qualify.html)

So it would be legitimate if the work you are doing is to research business opportunities. Also book every relevant conference and convention in the area that you can go to and attend each, get business cards, develop contact.

As far as you know, you are here researching future opportunities to set up a great business and create jobs in the U.S..

<comment><USER46> Here's a potential sort of loop hole. Set up a software development business back in your home country (or another country, non US). It doesn't have to be much - maybe a bank account and a couple of your developer friends as would be contractors for it.

Then in the US you can legitimately use your "Business Visitor Visas (B-1) - ... to consult with business associates, ... or negotiate a contract"

[http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/VisaFlyer_March_20...](http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/VisaFlyer_March_2014_print.pdf)

So you can chat to startups and offer to get stuff written for them by your company abroad. They can legally pay your company and your company can pay you a salary while traveling.

I think all the above is legal. Not really legal but very hard to catch is you could actually write some of the code yourself in your room or a cafe in California if the friends back home don't do it. If immigration get on to you it would be hard to prove you are working rather than just mucking about on the laptop. On the other hand if you are in a work situation in an office then they will assume you are working illegally.

The above has an advantage that if you do well it may actually turn into a real business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> Have you considered Canada ? It has nice people and is not as hostile to migrants as some other countries.

</comment><comment><USER83> There is no future in the US, just go to other country (like Canada or something in west Europe).

</comment><comment><USER84> Oh man if you only lived in Alberta. You would def be welcome to stay at my place.

</comment><comment><USER85> go get em tiger, screw all the haters! good for you for trying to better yourself and doing it while following 'the rules'.

</comment><comment><USER86> You should consider getting an O-1 visa.

</comment><comment><USER87> It sounds like the poster is on a B1 or B2 visa which allows 6 months max stay. It's essentially a tourist visa that is issued for up to 10 years with max stay of 6 months and no right to work.

It's highly likely that he will enter a few times with short stays outside the USA and then get denied entry, sent to secondary processing at an airport, questioned and be offered: A) the right to contest his case in court which will mean jail time until his case comes up or B) The option to withdraw his petition to enter the USA and catch the next plane back to his home country. Most people choose B for obvious reasons which leads to you being marched through the airport by security and put on a plane back home.

What I'd very strongly recommend is to not go around offering to work for free. If you do in fact live in a war torn country and have 'lost all your savings', do what many offshore folks do and get a US company to hire you for pay and just work wherever you are and get paid in your home country. Why the "work for free" offer and why the long story? It makes companies nervous. We like to pay people for their good work whether in the USA or outside the country, but legally and above board. You should get paid too.

Just posting a few data points regarding H1B stuff and immigration in general:

Time varies for visa processing and 10 years is not average for most immigrants (as has been mentioned). It took me 6 months from zero to green- card and 3 years from conditional residency (green card) to full citizenship. Not H1B. So it varies according to type of Visa, where you file and your country. Wait times can be found here:

[https://egov.uscis.gov/cris/processTimesDisplayInit.do](https://egov.uscis.gov/cris/processTimesDisplayInit.do)

Microsoft brings in H1B's at a rate of 2000 to 4000 people per year into the Redmond area.

[http://visadoor.com/companies/microsoft- corporation](http://visadoor.com/companies/microsoft-corporation)

Google about the same numbers, mostly into Mountain View:

[http://visadoor.com/companies/google- inc](http://visadoor.com/companies/google-inc)

I'm not sure I agree about H1B being indentured servitude. I'd also add that, if your intention is to become a citizen via H1B, make sure you understand how the process works before you even apply for H1B:

[http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-get-US-citizenship- with-H1B-vi...](http://www.quora.com/How-do-I-get-US-citizenship- with-H1B-visa)

</comment><comment><USER88> I broke the US rules. I worked on my student visa, got thrown around four different prisons throughout Pennsylvania and New York in the span of 30-something days and was finally deported (with airfare that I had to pay for). I was in my final year of my B.S. in mathematics program at university. I never finished my degree.

All of the above is absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, THE most fortunate thing that has happened to me and I owe all of my current success to this.

What I'm trying to say is - PLEASE get back your dignity. You're not a monkey, don't make any person, government or society make you think you are one.

<comment><USER89> _... I owe all of my current success to this._

Can you elaborate? Sounds like an interesting story.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> Best of luck to you, friend! Hearing of all the things you have learned and have experience in leads me to believe that many startups would miss out if they overlooked you. You sound awesome.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your kind words :D

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> Hi,

I like you and your tenacity.

Why don't you ask it differently so all those annoying comments trying to "help" you would stop.

What I'm thinking is this:

"hey guys,

Does anyone have a fun side project I could hack on? Would you also be so generous as to have a couch for me at your place and host me for couple of weeks or whatever time?"

I can't imagine why such a proposal would have any illegal implications as long as you're presence in this country is legal. You can also qualify the "side project" as non-commercial and "hobby"

Does that make any sense whatsoever in your situation?

Anyway, best of luck. I really hope things get better.

Take care.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you a lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> Many people here talk about how 'terrible' the US is as a country. Yet, we see people like the OP trying everything in his power to get into the country.

It should really put things into perspective.

</comment><comment><USER92> Many people here talk about how 'terrible' the US is as a country. Yet, we see people like the OP trying everything in his power to get into the country.

It should really put things into perspective.</comment>


Pascal's Mugging (2009) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/pascal.pdf <comment><USER2> This can be easily resolved by considering that the victim of the mugging has finite resources. This is a usual remedy to problems were expected value alone gives stupid results (such as Pascal's Mugging). Something similar happens in lotteries where even if the expected value of buying a ticket is positive it is _still_ not rational for an ordinary person to buy a ticket.

If I have $400 dollars I can't afford to take 1:1000000 risks that cost $200 each. I will go bankrupt with an enormous likelihood whatever the payoff. There is a minimum cutoff involving cost/probability below which it does not make sense to take up the opportunity.

There are links to similar theoretical ideas from the Pascale's Mugging wiki page - although from the casinos perspective not the gambler's - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox#Finite_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox#Finite_St._Petersburg_lotteries) and then [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_ruin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_ruin) for example.

Most people will not take an 99% risk of going bankrupt in a game that will consume all their resource reserves; expected value as a statistic does not meaningfully capture the risk. Positive expectation, losing strategy.

<comment><USER3> Yes, but it is still not trivial to formalize mathematically without running into trouble: [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/a5JAiTdytou3Jg749/pascal- s-m...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/a5JAiTdytou3Jg749/pascal-s-mugging- tiny-probabilities-of-vast-utilities)

<comment><USER2> It is pretty simple to formalise - if there is a pool of people who routinely accept positive-expected-value gambles where there is a P = 99.999999999% chance of going broke then we expect everyone in that pool will be broke unless the size of the pool is comparable to 1/(1-P). Tighten up the bounds on 'comparable' a bit and that is formalised.

The mistake is accepting uncritically that expected value is the best metric to optimise. Nobody ever proved that expected value is a strategically superior metric. In fact it would be quite hard to prove that since it is not true. It leaves people vulnerable to making very stupid decisions as illustrated in Pascals Mugging.

Optimium strategy involves at a minimum considering your available opportunities and available resources. Opportunity alone is not enough.

<comment><USER4> > Tighten up the bounds on 'comparable' a bit and that is formalised.

Is this like "draw the rest of the owl"?

<comment><USER5> What owl?

<comment><USER6> reddit.com/r/restofthefuckingowl

<comment><USER7> Linking to examples of the meme without linking the actual meme doesn't really explain what "draw the rest of the owl" means. [https://i.kym- cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/572/078/d6d...](https://i.kym- cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/572/078/d6d.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is likely trending because John Carmack's recent post saying he was moving to AI references Pascal's Mugging: [https://www.facebook.com/100006735798590/posts/2547632585471...](https://www.facebook.com/100006735798590/posts/2547632585471243/)

His Facebook post was also discussed in detail on Hacker News here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21530860](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21530860)

<comment><USER9> I really love how this is could be seen as a demonstration that HN (or any other similar interest community, or probably the internet in general) functions like a hive mind, a collective consciousness. I've read that post by Carmack and I wondered exactly that "wonder what Pascal's Mugging is, interesting".

Sometimes you go around and wonder various things, but don't look them up or do them in the moment, and then sometime later your subconscious mind serves you up with an answer, perhaps when you are more relaxed you just think up of the answer, or it happens to come up in a certain context, the subconscious lights it up there. It might be a word that you see randomly in a newspaper, or you think of a person that was related when you met them etc.

And here the subconscious did the same wonderous thing, except it wasn't even strictly my personal subconsciousness, it was the group subconscious that found the information and presented it.

<comment><USER10> But how useful is it? Pascal's Mugging was submitted to HN and discussed 8 years ago. If the collective consciousness keeps needing reminders of what it once knew, this is probably still inferior to a single intelligent person who reads a lot and remembers it all.

<comment><USER11> The population using HN takes in new members continuously, and the fraction who read everything posted eight years ago is very small.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I hereby declare that I will expose everyone that gives in to Pascal's mugger to a negative utility so great compared to whatever the mugger promises that it is always best to keep the wallet. I cold be telling the truth. You're welcome.

</comment><comment><USER13> I don't know the background to this but if I understand correctly, it kind of pivots on the probability that the mugger is indeed an Operator from the Seventh Dimension, that Pascal places at 1 in a quadrillion.

In that case, I have to wonder where this estimate comes from? I get that it's just an arbitrary number and that any number would do, as long as it wasn't zero, but that's exactly the point: why can't Pascal place the probability of his mugger being an Operator from the Seventh Dimension at zero?

Is there any evidence at all to support the mugger's claim? Is there any evidence at all that there is such a thing as a "Seventh Dimension" for which the only thing we know is that its "Operators" have magickal, utility- maximising powers?

And does the whole thing only work if we assume that the probability that there is such a place and such people is more than 0?

<comment><USER14> If you set the probability at zero, you won't be convinced when they actually _are_ an operator from the seventh dimension. That is to say, you run into the opposite problem of being Pascal's Muggle [1].

1: [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ap4KfkHyxjYPDiqh2/pascal- s-m...](https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Ap4KfkHyxjYPDiqh2/pascal-s-muggle- infinitesimal-priors-and-strong-evidence)

> _A wind begins to blow about the alley, whipping the Mugger 's loose clothes > about him as they shift from ill-fitting shirt and jeans into robes of > infinite blackness, within whose depths tiny galaxies and stranger things > seem to twinkle. In the sky above, a gap edged by blue fire opens with a > horrendous tearing sound - you can hear people on the nearby street yelling > in sudden shock and terror, implying that they can see it too - and displays > the image of the Mugger himself, wearing the same robes that now adorn his > body, seated before a keyboard and a monitor._

> _[...] "Unfortunately, you haven't offered me enough evidence," you > explain._

<comment><USER13> Thanks, that's an interesting read. But I don't think it addresses my question: why shouldn't Pascal place the probability that the Mugger is an Operator from the Seventh dimension to _zero_ (rather than an infinitissemally small number)?

The point is that, at the time when the Mugger declares himself to be an Operator from the Seventh Dimension who can offer large rewards etc, there is no evidence to suggest he's saying the truth. No evidence at all. Accordingly, the probability that he's telling the truth must be zero. Where does a non- zero probability value come from?

Are you then saying that the probability of any reward should never be placed to zero because that would not maximise rewards?

<comment><USER15> Probability zero is the same as saying that it would take infinite evidence to convince you. Even if someone provides amazingly convincing evidence, better than you've ever seen, a flat 0 or 1 eats it.

> there is no evidence to suggest he's saying the truth. No evidence at all. > Accordingly, the probability that he's telling the truth must be zero.

I don't think that logic works. What if the claim was "I have a five dollar bill in my pocket"?

<comment><USER13> >> Probability zero is the same as saying that it would take infinite evidence to convince you.

That assumes I can't go back and change my earlier beliefs. But I don't see why that's necessary. If I have no evidence that X is true at time t, I assing a probability of 0 to it. If I acquire evidence that X is true at time t+1, I throw out the 0 and assign a higher probability to X.

The world changes all the time. Why am I condemned to hold on to obviously unsound beliefs for all eternity?

>> I don't think that logic works. What if the claim was "I have a five dollar bill in my pocket"?

That depends. I've seen five dollar bills coming out of peoples' pockets before (actually, I haven't because dollars are not common where I live but Ok). I don't have to assing a zero probability to that. I have some evidence that it's possible.

But I have no evidence that there even exists such a thing as a Seventh Dimension etc.

<comment><USER15> > If I acquire evidence that X is true at time t+1, I throw out the 0 and > assign a higher probability to X.

> The world changes all the time. Why am I condemned to hold on to obviously > unsound beliefs for all eternity?

Normally when you update a probability, how much you change it is based on the strength of the evidence. If your probability of something is ultra-low, and you see an event that's a million times more likely if that thing is true, your new probability is roughly a million times higher. And for a probability that's sufficiently close to 0 or 1, that pit is basically impossible to climb out of.

Do you have an alternate method to suggest? What's the calculation you would use? Note that "I'm seeing this with my own eyes" should only give you so much change, because you might have accidentally taken a whole bunch of hallucinogens.

> But I have no evidence that there even exists such a thing as a Seventh > Dimension etc.

If you're setting a hard cutoff based on the silly Seventh Dimension stuff, then you still fall for the version where I come to your house and sign a document giving you a giant pile of money. That's how mortgages and business deals work every day after all.

> How about the statement "Hillary Clinton is the President of the United > States"? What probability should I assign to that? I know that the PotUS is > Donald Trump. Does Cromwell's Rule mean that I have to believe that Hillary > Clinton is the PotUS at least a little, because otherwise I will never be > able to believe it if she ever gets elected president?

Not for that reason. But you have to factor in the chance that you got confused, or your brain is failing to make new memories and it's actually 2022, or you just woke up from a really detailed dream about the wrong president.

<comment><USER13> >> Do you have an alternate method to suggest? What's the calculation you would use? Note that "I'm seeing this with my own eyes" should only give you so much change, because you might have accidentally taken a whole bunch of hallucinogens.

I don't understand. How would it happen that I've accidentally taken a whole bunch of hallucinogens? I never go near that kind of stuff.

>> Not for that reason. But you have to factor in the chance that you got confused, or your brain is failing to make new memories and it's actually 2022, or you just woke up from a really detailed dream about the wrong president.

I don't see how that would happen either. Why would my brain fail to make new memories? Why are you saying that this might be the case?

I think this is just enhancing the deep unreality of what you are proposing. If we need to assume that I'm in some kind of weird mental state that I have no reason to be in for your whole proposition to make sense then I really don't see the point of it, other than perhaps an interesting theoretical game.

<comment><USER15> You can't come up with a one in a billion scenario that you would accidentally take a hallucinogen?

You never ever have a dream that seems real for a few moments?

And failing to make new memories would be a specific but possible injury.

We're supposed to be working with very low probabilities here. That's the whole point of the thought experiment. If you're going to round anything below one-in-a-million to exactly zero then that's your prerogative, and it works in everyday life, but it's objectively wrong; it would falsely reject the idea of lightning strikes and winning the lottery.

> I think this is just enhancing the deep unreality of what you are proposing.

You didn't even reply to the part about removing all the silly stuff and cutting it down to just "guy offers to sign a document for lots of money"...

<comment><USER13> But I'm not hallucinating and I'm not dreaming either.

Also, I don't know why you're saying I'd round anything below one-in-a-million to zero. I wouldn't. But would assign zero probability to a mugger being an Operator from the Sevent Dimension because that's a patently absurd idea that I see no good reason to grace even with the slightest degree of belief.

I mean, if you take what you are saying here at face value I actually have to assume that there is a probability that there exists a Seventh Dimension with magikcally powerful Operators inhabiting it. In real life, not just in the context of Pascal's Wager. Because I can't assign zero probability to anything.

That just doesn't make any sense at all.

>> You didn't even reply to the part about removing all the silly stuff and cutting it down to just "guy offers to sign a document for lots of money"...

Apologies. I didn't understand what you meant with that and I didn't want to clutter the comment space with more clarifying questions.

<comment><USER15> > But I'm not hallucinating and I'm not dreaming either.

You've never been unsure if something actually happened for a moment? Because even if you only spend a few moments like that per month, we can assign it a probability.

> I mean, if you take what you are saying here at face value I actually have > to assume that there is a probability that there exists a Seventh Dimension > with magikcally powerful Operators inhabiting it. In real life, not just in > the context of Pascal's Wager. Because I can't assign zero probability to > anything.

You don't think there's _any_ chance that you fundamentally misunderstand the universe and that there are powerful secrets being actively hidden from you? It doesn't have to be real 'magic', just something too beyond your understanding. I think there's _some_ chance of that. I'd say less than 1% and more than 1 in a googolplex, to put some amusingly loose bounds on it. And then you have to factor in the chance the guy picks you in particular to mess with, but that's not an unreasonably large number.

> Apologies. I didn't understand what you meant with that and I didn't want to > clutter the comment space with more clarifying questions.

You're objecting so specifically to the seventh dimension stuff, I thought it would be simpler to cut all that out. The point of the thought experiment is just a very likely but very positive act. And the way to have a productive conversation is to respond to the strongest form of the argument. So in that version, you can't just _declare_ that the person in front of you isn't a rich guy screwing around and giving money to people that accept, because the probability of that is clearly not zero.

<comment><USER13> >> The point of the thought experiment is just a very likely but very positive act.

(You mean very _un_likely eh?)

The reason I'm objecting specifically to the seventh dimension stuff is that it's just something fanciful that someone came up with, so it's obviously fake and I don't have to believe it even a little bit.

The probability of someone just handing out money (if I read you correctly this time) is very low, but not zero, yes. But I'm contesting the claim that I'm never allowed to assign 0 probability to anything, because then I'm at risk of losing out. Sometimes, you don't risk being wrong by disbelieving something.

Anyway I'm getting more and more confused by this conversation. I don't think it's getting anywhere. Thanks for your patience- you have the floor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Wow, I always thought of Pascal's Mugging as a satirical illustration of how stupid it is to take enormous (or extremely small) numbers seriously. Turns out people like John Carmack (see other comments in this thread) aren't picking up on the satire. Or am I reading him wrong? I think he's smarter than me, so what am I missing?

Given Bostrom's general love for mixing tiny probabilities with enormous outcomes, what's the point of this article? It seems delightfully self- critical. How can the conclusion be anything other than that we should _not_ be taking the AI/singularity crowd too seriously, as doing so would be akin to voluntarily handig over a wallet to a mugger?

<comment><USER9> Sounds more like you are taking the argument too seriously and are trying to read more into it than what it is.

It is just a philosophical story created to provide a certain line of reasoning, as certain possible structure of an argument. People are free to apply this argument however they want, it doesn't prove anything by itself, it doesn't say anything about the world, it's up to the user of it. It does not make any conclusions, it's just a story. Carmack used it to illustrate his own beliefs (which are therefore: AI is possible and the payout for the AI is exteremely high, even if probability for it during the next couple of years is low).

Carmack did not mean that you should believe or not believe in AI or anything else based on this argument. He just used it to illustrate what he himself chose to do. He did not base it on this argument alone, he did not just hear the argument and suddenly decide "now because of that I have to work on AI", he based it on his experience and knowledge of the actual field. The mugging argument is just a cute way of quickly explaining it.

> I think he's smarter than me, so what am I missing?

Wisdom and context.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Paradoxes such as this one point at some rarely discussed assumptions about the utility function. The major one is that it exists. Or exists as something more than a model which is only good for a range of payoffs.

<comment><USER18> The point of paradoxes like this is to demonstrate that even in our incredibly simple toy models of agents, we still run into issues. These paradoxes help point out weaknesses of the models and act as new desiridata for better models.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Expected value != expected utility.

Just taking this seriously pretty much resolves all these problems.

It makes sense to take high cost/reward, low probability events seriously if the _expected utility_ works out. Examples include reducing existential risk substantially, even at cost to short-term utility (say, in the form of well- being) to increase the probability that we can eventually figure out how to optimally arrange matter and energy and trigger a utilitronium shockwave.

</comment><comment><USER20> In case someone is not familiar with _Pascal 's wager_, here is a table that shows the expected values: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Analysis_with...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager#Analysis_with_decision_theory) (the appearance of infinity breaks the decision theory...)

<comment><USER21> Pascal's Wager fails for the simpler reason that it ignores the possibility that believing in god could send you to hell.

I see a similar problem here. Pascal should consider the possibility that the mugger will use his (Pascal's) silly action as the basis for punishment, in place of the promised reward. Slim probability, potentially very high cost. The fact that this risk has gone unstated doesn't mean it isn't there.

<comment><USER18> I agree. This problem is still useful though, because to analyse a lot of counterfactual muggers, you must be able to analyse one mugger!

<comment><USER21> I agree that both problems are worth analysing, even if they're both absurd. Same goes for the Hangman's Paradox, a personal favourite. [0]

I gather that Pascal had never intended Pascal's Wager to be a watertight argument, it was intended more as a plaything for showing how unlikely it was anyone could make a watertight case for the existence of God.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman%27s_Paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangman%27s_Paradox)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Related from 2011: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932157](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932157)</comment>


Never got around to thanking that teacher? - <AUTHOR> http://thanksforteaching.us/

<comment><USER3> I had some _great_ teachers that I will always remember (what they taught me and their physical appearance). However I can't remember any of my teachers' names, whether it was elementary, junior high, or high school, or even university.

I just don't have a good memory of names. This site makes me regret it :-(

<comment><USER4> Have an old yearbook?

<comment><USER3> Schools in France don't have yearbooks. At least, it is not a custom of public schools to have them.

<comment><USER5> My son made a yearbook in class with all his classmates and their birthdays. I think it is to help them learn each others names and the months of the year.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Shouldn't it have a search feature? I'd like to check my old highschool/town.

<comment><USER7> Click "What's This All About" on the top. Search is in the lower left.

<comment><AUTHOR> We could probably make this featured main page and more explicit, Thanks for pointing this out.

<comment><USER8> If possible, it would be interesting to see it graphically on a map since it has all the city and states.

<comment><USER9> good point - we're hoping to build this out and get it up and running soon

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Great idea, I recently (I'm in college now) went back and thanked several of my elementary school teachers who were really excellent. They don't get nearly enough thanks, but I know for damn sure I wouldn't be where I am today without them.

<comment><USER11> _I know for damn sure I wouldn't be where I am today without them._

How do you know this?

<comment><USER10> Because I see bits of them in myself. An example: my sixth grade teacher math teacher frequently said that good mathematicians were lazy, that the simplest solution to a problem was often best, and that we didn't need to use overly complex techniques to solve problems. That's now at the core of my philosophy as a programmer.

<comment><USER11> How do you know you wouldn't have picked up the same trait from another source?

It's not as if that teacher is unique in advocating simplicity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Arghh! I had a long thank you written but it got deleted because I didn't fill in one one the fields. Nice idea otherwise.

<comment><USER13> Same here. Considering how much effort seems to have been put in on the design, I'm kind of disgusted that a flaw like this would go all the way into production.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is fantastic! I way prefer this positivity over the judgemental tone of websites like ratemyprofessors.com

Would be nice to break this down by region.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the kind words, we have been pulling this together over the last few weeks but breakdown by region will be very cool. It has been interesting to see where students are coming from: Kuwait, New Zealand, Brazil, etc.

<comment><USER14> No thank you sir or madam! I only bring it up as I'm not from the US and would find it interesting to see more about the teachers in my city etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> dorian-graph I love this idea/website.

I went back to my high-school to borrow a lab coat for a Halloween party and while I was there I ran into a few old teachers and had a chance to thank them and have a good conversation with them. While a lot of kids 'hate' their teachers I seemed to be the near opposite.

Also, I recommend doing this for other things too, for example, I recently had an operation on my hand and the nurses and other staff at the hospital were awesome. I'm going back for a follow-up appointment and I'm going to bring a thank-you card and a couple of flowers to give to the ward.

<comment><USER9> Thanks for your support and glad you like our site! It's so awesome thinking back to all the great teachers we've had and taking a minute to say thank you. Hopefully we'll be able to connect you directly to them soon!

Great idea on the hospital staff thank you site too :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Most schools have websites with faculty emails listed... it's very easy to look them up. I like the idea for this site - but would love to see a bigger mechanism for actually getting the messages to the teachers.

<comment><AUTHOR> It would be nice, for now we have the user pushing it out manually. Is there a database/directory for teachers that we could use for the backend?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Nice idea for a site. I thanked my high school Math teacher who was an amazing teacher and inspired me quite a bit. I just wish he could actually receive the thank you, I have no idea where he is now.

</comment><comment><USER17> Anyone else interested in the fact that this was built on top of Tumblr? Its pretty awesome how simple this idea is over Tumblr...

<comment><USER18> it looks really good! seems like they did a great job editing existing tumblr code also

<comment><USER9> thanks for your support! we had a few amazing people on our team...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I was told to do this in a psych class I took freshman year in college.

I emailed my second grade teacher, who was probably the person that got me into reading. She was extremely grateful, and a decade later still remembered everyone in the class.

</comment><comment><USER20> Awesome idea and a great way to get positive energy out there - <USER2> since teachers are facing a lot of pressure these days....thanks for putting this together

</comment><comment><USER21> This is ridiculously awesome, enjoying all the positive vibes and people taking the time to step back and think about who helped them. Keep it up!

</comment><comment><USER18> would be great to build out this (already awesome) concept a little more. any ideas for expanding it? adding on some partnerships?

</comment><comment><USER22> Great idea and execution but why only 30 days?

<comment><AUTHOR> Long story, but it is a campaign under another group for 30 days and after that it should be around for a long time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> these international posts are great! Lovely to see how everyone share the common bond of being inspired by great teachers

</comment><comment><USER24> beautiful design! just curious, how do you set so that the vertical spacing matches the lines in the paper?

<comment><USER25> I'm not associated, but it's just fixed line-height. Lines in the paper are every 18px, body line-height is 18px and title line-height is 36px (double). So they align.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> just sent this out to a PTA list serve for my school district. Would be cool to get more schools involved

</comment><comment><USER27> love this! just posted a thank you. What a good opportunity to get back in touch with our teachers

</comment><comment><USER28> im sure there are som great opportunities for collaborating to set up donations? any ideas?

</comment><comment><USER29> just forwarded some thanks to my teachers. hoping to get schools involved!

</comment><comment><USER30> the international responses are so cool! can't wait to share this

</comment><comment><USER31> this is awesome! GOOD mag should feature...

</comment><comment><USER32> cool project guys - keep it up

</comment><comment><USER33> where is the tip jar?

</comment><comment><USER34> beautiful

</comment><comment><USER35> If my teachers would have had their way I'd be working night shifts at a liquor store now.</comment>


Show HN: Video content and revenue sharing monetized with video classified ads - <AUTHOR> http://www.newzing.com

<comment><AUTHOR> a word about video classifieds -- currently local small businesses advertise with text classified but they would advertise with videos if a low cost video advertising option was available.</comment>


Ask HN: (Need ADVICE, WARNING, TO-DOs)A student starting my first startup - <AUTHOR> Hello Everyone, I am a guy from India(New Delhi) and i am finishing my graduation. I have gained some skills in web development. And i have created team with three of my friends. We have break down the task as one of us knows Android, Me being the Web Developer and my third friend looking into sales and marketing and every other task so that we wont be slow on making our product. I am kind of a guy who really want to make this world a better place by adding real value in this world for everyone out their and it's one of the main reason about starting a startup and not looking for job.
Now why i am here is because as i am starting my first startup statistically speaking i am sure we are going to go through some common pitfalls and create some mistake. What i want from all of you is any piece of anecdote or advice or guidance that you think you have suffered and how you overcome it. It could be anything that could help me so that i wont create some common mistake.
Advice about how to start, early days, time management, team management, getting shit done, psychological advice. I am looking for everything. I am pretty confident about myself and the work we are going to do. But i am also afraid because stakes are high and the pressure from my family. So if you got something valuable to add to my life i am here welcoming you. Thank you all !!!<p>Any kind of help would be appreciated. <comment><USER2> Main thing: solve problems, don't fight them. If it appears you must fight really, really hard to fix an issue and there isn't a clear way to move the needle without potential work, move on (avoid sunk cost fallacy) and figure out how to avoid the problem all-together.

That could mean: hey the product in this respect isn't working and we don't know how to change it. What happens if you change the business model? Customer acquisition strategy? Product strategy? Everything is always on the table when in search for P/M fit, so don't get too locked into a solution. Dial into your problem.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for Taking me to Sunk cost fallacy. Learnt Something !!</comment></comment>


Children with myopia are more intelligent - <AUTHOR> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2676252/Wear-glasses-Then-youre-probably-SMART-Educated-people-likely-suffer-sight-problems-claims-study.html <comment><AUTHOR> Here is what I think happens.

Visual information is a lot to take in. When the eyes see 20/20, the brain develops to keep up with that information, and all this processing takes away resources from cognitive abilities, which have to do with more abstract thinking.

In addition, with more limited the information coming in, the brain has to guess more, and becomes more adept at _abstract_ rather than _concrete_ thinking.

Kind of like blind people develop much better sonar and have entire regions of the brain taken over by the sound processing structures.

While it may be true that smart children read more (or something), I'd say that, today everyone is staring at their screens in about equal amounts. So I'd say the above theory makes sense. I myself grew up kind of nearsighted, and now when I put on my contacts I can sort of feel the overload, when I engage in cognitive tasks.</comment>


Old Wall Street Discusses the New - <AUTHOR> http://norris.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/21/old-wall-street-discusses-the-new/ <comment><USER2> I thought Michael Lewis' "Liar's Poker" was describing a world that was ending, not that a world was beginning. And what it was describing, it turns out, is a period in finance that went on for another 25 years or 20 years.

The incentives for people on Wall Street got so screwed up, that the people who worked there became blinded to their own long term interests because the short term interests were so overpowering. So they behaved in ways that were antithetical to their own long term interests.

</comment><comment><USER3> Aren't the banks themselves doing the same thing? Use OPM (taxpayer bailouts) to socialize any losses on huge bets with huge payoffs.

<comment><USER4> sure but you can't attach moral obligation or duty to a corporate entity, all you can do is regulate (and we are trying...)

to tie the two together, i don't believe regulators are paying nearly enough attention to how incentives have changed over the past 15 years and why board of directors have become powerless to common sense in this arena

<comment><USER5> > sure but you can't attach moral obligation or duty to a corporate entity, > all you can do is regulate (and we are trying...)

Actually, that's not "all you can do".

Note that regulators "don't have any skin in the game" and that regulation is systemic risk (by definition).

Also, regulation is always behind.

And that's without even addressing the elephant in the room, regulatory capture.

<comment><USER4> although i appreciate your attempt at libertarianism, your logic is non- nonsensical: you attack regulation without offering an alternative or re- defining the problem

<comment><USER5> > your logic is non-nonsensical: you attack regulation without offering an > alternative or re-defining the problem

Non-sensical?

Do you really believe that the properties of regulation are affected by alternatives? (Hint: the relative merit is, but not the absolute properties.)

It's perfectly appropriate to interrupt a regulation love-fest by pointing out that it does not have the properties that its fans claim.

Do you really want to argue "we must do something, regulation is something, therefore we must regulate"?

And, there's the small matter that regulation can take many forms. For example, torts are a form of regulation.

Yet, question bureaucrats, and folks rise up.

You remember bureaucrats. They're folks with no skin in the game....

<comment><USER4> in politics relative merit is what gets things done (Hint: you can get around this by starting your own libertarian paradise on some uninhabited island, may I submit the name "jackassland" for your consideration)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> And old wall street was investing their own money rather than OPM? They must have had such a bad life, those old timers.

</comment><comment><USER7> Judging by the title, I expected the op to rant about quants.

</comment><comment><USER8> I thought this was about the movies. ha!</comment>


Ask HN: What presentation software/tools do you use? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
I'm going to hold an important presentation very soon. Usually, Google's html5-slides and/or Powerpoint did the job.
What do you use and why? <comment><USER2> I use the deck package [1, 2, 3], and the pdfdeck[4] client. As stated earlier, using PDFs simplifies both presenting and distribution.

The deck packages uses a simplified markup that is portable, easy to machine- generate, facilitates source control, and not locked to a vendor.

[1] [https://speakerdeck.com/ajstarks/deck-a-go-package-for- prese...](https://speakerdeck.com/ajstarks/deck-a-go-package-for- presentations)

[2] [http://godoc.org/github.com/ajstarks/deck](http://godoc.org/github.com/ajstarks/deck)

[3] [http://godoc.org/github.com/ajstarks/deck/generate](http://godoc.org/github.com/ajstarks/deck/generate)

[4] [https://github.com/ajstarks/deck/tree/master/cmd/pdfdeck](https://github.com/ajstarks/deck/tree/master/cmd/pdfdeck)

</comment><comment><USER3> [http://decksetapp.com](http://decksetapp.com) which allows one to write in Markdown and takes care of styling, etc. .

<comment><USER4> Don't suppose there's a Windows equivalent anywhere, is there?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I try very hard not to have any slides. If there is some diagram I simply must show, it goes up when I need to talk about it, and stays there as long as I need to talk about it, and then it comes down again. The lights come back up when I'm done talking about it.

</comment><comment><USER6> I use slides.com. Easy/fast to put together a good looking slide deck, and I can provide a link for people to watch the slides on their own device (if I'm presenting somewhere that doesn't have a projector or something).

</comment><comment><USER7> I write my slide content in Markdown, use pandoc to generate beamer slides as LaTeX files and then compile the beamer to PDF slides.

There are a few steps involved, but they're all pretty easily scriptable, and it allows me to use my favorite text editor to compose content quickly.

</comment><comment><USER8> I use reveal.js[1], but my presentations are just bullet points and transitions. It might be harder to use if you like to include a lot of images.

[1] [http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/](http://lab.hakim.se/reveal-js/)

</comment><comment><USER9> I create my presentations in Powerpoint and export them to PDF.

I do that, because it partly fixes the problem with different video projector resolutions and needed presentation software. Also, I don't need a working internet connection, which is a huge plus from my side.

</comment><comment><USER10> I like deck.rb for writing the presentation in Markdown then showing it as a webpage. (Hit f11 to hide the browser chrome.) But I'm considering switching to LaTeX and generating a PDF, so the whole presentation lives as a single file.

</comment><comment><USER11> I use Beamer (LaTeX) a view with Adobe Acrobat or whatever is installed on the presentation laptop. It's useful for presentations containing mathematical notation.

</comment><comment><USER12> MacBook Pro and Keynote seem to do the job just fine for me. If I am going to send the presentation to anyone I almost always export to PDF.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'd probably use openoffice impress or keynote and then convert the slides to images or something.

</comment><comment><USER14> Perzi</comment>