The Shame of Palo Alto: An Interview with Kate Downing on Affordable Housing - <AUTHOR> https://stanfordpolitics.com/the-shame-of-palo-alto-an-interview-with-kate-downing-on-affordable-housing-edddfe142d45#.60ip1iuro <comment><USER2> It seems that we made a pact with the devil by positioning housing as an investment asset. By doing so, we've encouraged people to commit a very large fraction of their net worth into a rather illiquid asset, tying their financial fates to the future assessment of that asset. As a result, protecting the price and appreciation of this asset has come to overshadow the other crucial roles that housing plays in our society.

If I bought shares in AAPL at $50 (now $100+) and someone comes along asking that AAPL let them buy some shares for say, $65, I'm obviously not going to be happy since the value of my investment is under threat. This is the kind of reaction we've unfortunately promoted for ourselves. It didn't have to be this way, as other countries have shown us. But now that we're here, it's hard to imagine a way to turn back time.

<comment><USER3> It's a double whammy when you also consider that property taxes are generally based on real estate value. City and local governments are dependent on that income and have little incentive to see real estate values (and thus tax) go down.

<comment><USER4> Also governments get tax not on the value of a single property but the cumulative value of the properties (emphasis on the plurality) .

If my 1M house gets replaced with 10x 250k units the government has 2.5x its tax base. See how affordability and solid tax base can coincide?

<comment><USER5> Local government costs also go up as population increases.

<comment><USER6> The relationship is not usually linear, though. With density comes efficiency in services. Though some of that efficiency is eaten by the additional cost of doing the work.

<comment><USER5> Not really teachers are linear with population size. An overpass is vastly more expensive than a stoplight and still cheaper than a subway system.

So, yes for small changes to population size a city need not spend more an can simply degrade services slightly, but doubling population size quickly gets really expensive.

<comment><USER4> I would have thought that the linear system was still more expensive than the dense system (within some reasonable limits). Consider the single family home as the null case, everyone lives in single family homes as far as the eye can see, the distance that family must travel to get to the core of a city is greater than any other existing family (that is new homes are on the outer ring of the city and thus progressively further and further from the core). So that family consumes more road miles daily. Vs if you grow in density you do not create anymore miles of road because those people only have to travel a shorter distance. And when the inevitable overpass comes, instead of needing overpasses from 1/2radius of the city you may only need them for 1/4 etc because the people are already in the core and do not need to come from as far.

just some thoughts on efficiency of density vs dispersement

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Relatedly: "More housing density keeps Seattle affordable for younger residents:" [http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/more-housing-density- kee...](http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/more-housing-density-keeps- seattle-affordable-for-younger-residents/). Seattle is doing better than SF or NYC: [http://www.vox.com/2015/12/23/10657690/seattle-housing- crisi...](http://www.vox.com/2015/12/23/10657690/seattle-housing-crisis) but still not good enough. Tokyo should be its example: [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3c60.html).

<comment><USER7> I moved from Palo Alto to Seattle in 2014. One factor was cost of living (including taxes), but another was that Seattle had a large number of very nice, relative new high rise apartments. I had my pick of great apartments, while in Palo Alto such apartments simply don't exist.

The housing problem in Palo Alto is not simply one of affordability. It's also a problem of desirability among those with the means to pay.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I get depressed every time I think about the Bay Area housing situation. As half of an early-30s professional couple looking at our baby clock and anxious to start a family, I don't see how I can possibly provide a middle-class lifestyle for children while staying here. The choices are to join the bleeding edge of gentrification by moving into a slum like East Palo Alto or commit to severely degraded quality of life that comes with a megacommute.

I don't mind leaving and I probably will, but I do resent it when people act like two highly-educated and gainfully employed young people wanting to live where they work is some kind of unreasonable millennial self-entitlement.

<comment><USER9> Not sure what part of the bay area you live/work in, but where have you been looking? I bought in Redwood City last year and the prices, while high relative to the rest of the country, are probably manageable for many professional Bay Area couples. You can get a decent 3 bedroom for $900k-$1.2m, which is probably ~$3k-$4k/mo for [mortgage + property taxes - tax breaks].

<comment><USER10> Wow, only a million dollars for a 3 bedroom house. That's so affordable /s

<comment><USER9> I know it's very expensive relative to the rest of the US, but:

1) It's way cheaper than Palo Alto (where a 3br is probably $2m).

2) This would be affordable in the bay area for many couples, especially when at least one person is an engineer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Palo Alto has the problem that people don't leave.

It used to be a college town. University Avenue had four bookstores. But then people stopped moving away. About a decade ago, Palo Alto did a survey of residents to find out how long they intended to live where they were. Most said they intended to live there for the rest of their life. This implies Palo Alto becoming a retirement community.

University Avenue now has zero bookstores.

<comment><USER12> Not just Palo Alto but California-wide....Prop 13 makes dying of old age in the home you raised your children in the cheapest option. Literally anywhere else people move to, even a downsize, will result in higher property taxes

Related to this is the shabby conditions of many homes...the aged can't afford to renovate, but they also can't afford to move. They die in a tear-down

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Seems to be the same old story we've long known. Government interference in markets leads to distortions. Yet year after year we act surprised. And when it comes time to setting up a government, we vote for the person who promises to spend others' money on our pet project.

<comment><USER13> I'm tired of hearing the ideological position that government interference is absolutely bad. I live in a city-state where government housing and policies and strict zoning at once makes housing affordable for the middle and lower class insulated from fluctuating rents, and protects public spaces from overdevelopment in a land-scarce island.

<comment><USER14> You're right in one sense -- all government (in)actions should be considered, not an "interference" per se, but a choice made with at least some understanding of the consequences on society.

As for the problem of interfering with the market... One issue is that a well- functioning market depends on the idea that price captures all information. This is central to the idea of the "invisible hand" guiding individuals to arrive at the correct level of supply to optimally satisfy demand. When government actions set prices, the market participants no longer receive the correct information. In turn, the market will arrive either at too much supply (and waste) or too little supply (and unsatisfied demand).

In the case of housing, the government usually takes action to set prices for some homes lower than what market forces would arrive at. Therefore, the market will under-supply and some folks who want housing will not have it. The answer is to either allow prices to move without intervention or for the government to subsidize the supply of housing.

<comment><USER15> I agree with you on all the theory, but I'd add that if you take the subsidy option, you'll forever have to clamp down harder and harder as the effects of the distortions amplify.

I'm actually open to the idea that the government option could work; I just find it entirely antithetical to the ethos of the US.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Kim-Mai Cutler's excellent and thorough analysis from a couple of years ago [0] is still broadly relevant, though I think there have been some changes -- the whole Google bus thing blew over, I guess, and Mountain View's city council got largely replaced, the new council being more housing-friendly. But there's still a lot in here that's applicable.

ETA: Oh, and here's a great piece on Henry George [1].

[0] [https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf- housing/](https://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/)

[1] [https://techcrunch.com/2016/01/29/nothing-like-this-has- ever...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/01/29/nothing-like-this-has-ever- happened-before/)

</comment><comment><USER17> Relevant:

[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/08/col...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/08/collective- land-ownership-in-palo-alto.html)

[http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/08/lai...](http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/08/laissez- faire-in-tokyo.html)

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/10/why-c...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/10/why- cities-need-to-care-more-about-works-in-them-not-just-who-lives-in-them/)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/business/how-anti- growth-s...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/business/how-anti-growth- sentiment-reflected-in-zoning-laws-thwarts-equality.html)

[http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-27/zoning- has...](http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-27/zoning-has-had-a- good-100-years-and-that-s-plenty)

Get involved:

[http://sfyimby.com](http://sfyimby.com)

[http://www.strongtowns.org](http://www.strongtowns.org)

</comment><comment><USER18> As much as I appreciate all these articles expounding the plethora of issues stemming from housing in the Bay Area, I can't help but feel thoroughly discouraged.

It seems that despite an abundance of chatter, we'll never see any change. If things were going to be fundamentally different, any time soon, we'd see indications of that. Instead it's just articles. Articles, on articles, on articles.

<comment><USER19> Don't be discouraged! YIMBY groups are popping up all over the Bay Area working to make a difference in their cities. Join a group's mailing list and show up at your city council when they ask you to. Easy. Bring enough friends and we'll see real change.

Live in Palo Alto: paloaltoforward.com Live in Menlo Park? www.imaginemenlo.com Mountain View? [http://balancedmv.org/](http://balancedmv.org/) San Francisco? [http://www.sfbarf.org/](http://www.sfbarf.org/)

Some headlines: [http://gizmodo.com/yimby-groups-are-organizing-across-the- us...](http://gizmodo.com/yimby-groups-are-organizing-across-the-us-to-make- citie-1771699132) [https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/who-are-yimby-first- meeting...](https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/who-are-yimby-first-meeting- boulder)

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbeyer/2016/06/30/what- is-a-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottbeyer/2016/06/30/what-is-a- yimby/#6345d767b597)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> While it is fine to call out the City Council, I am surprised there wasn't an acknowledgment that the City Council is a reflection of the will of the people in the City. If it were really an issue to the community they would elect new Council persons.

Since the majority of the stakeholders on this issue likely can't vote to change the Council because they don't live in the City, I would recommend a boycott. One thing the transit workers could do is organize to the extent they don't buy anything within the city limits. No gas, no food/lunch, no shopping, no entertainment, etc... Once you get local business behind a political issue the rest typically fall in line or they may find themselves ostracized within their own community.

<comment><USER19> The problem with the "will of the people" is outlined here pretty well: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/10/why-c...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/10/why- cities-need-to-care-more-about-works-in-them-not-just-who-lives-in-them/)

A small minority of NIMBY homeowners can capture and control a city council fairly easily. When you are well off (and are retired or independently wealthy and don't work...) and you're in a town of 65,000, that really means there are maybe at most 1000 people actually going to City Council and paying any attention to it. That means that if you've lived there for 30 years, you know all of them and your networks are very deep. So, a small minority who has time and resources can effect a lot. And meanwhile young people, working people, people with young kids, people working 2-3 jobs, etc they're not paying attention, they don't have those deep networks, and frankly they only show up to vote in presidential elections. Plus, people who like how things are going, don't really dig into this stuff and have no reason to think anything is wrong. If you think Palo Alto "is on fire" and "going to hell in a hand basket" because you have to drive by a new apartment building, then you show up to council and you show up to vote. But if you have no issue with new buildings, you've got no reason to show up and you're far less concerned with voting. So, problem #1 is that people who are most affected are not paying attention or do not know that they should be paying attention.

Problem #2 is as outlined in the article above. When every city council is captured by existing homeowners, no town decides to add housing. Every town prefers to add jobs that bring in tax revenues but thinks they have little to gain from allowing more housing, because of the attendant infrastructure costs (like new schools). And so collectively, they make choices that drive up the cost of housing, drive people away from jobs centers, create homelessness, and which contribute to income inequality as people spend more and more money on housing because of an artificial constraint on housing supply. Added together, this stuff hurts our economy and it's killing off the middle class.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I used to live in Silicon Valley for many years. Devil's advocate: Why _should_ Palo Alto provide affordable housing? People who want affordable housing can find it in Menlo Park, East-PA, Mountain View, all of which are just minutes away from Palo Alto. The reason why people don't want to live there, is because they want to live in a neighborhood that's as exclusive/upscale as Palo Alto. And yet, if Palo Alto gave in to demands for Affordable Housing, it would lose that very upscale/exclusivity that people are seeking in the first place.

I've always argued that San Francisco needs more affordable housing, because it's not just a neighborhood, it's a _city_. Anyone who lives outside of SF has to expend considerable effort in getting to SF, hence why the city has a duty to provide affordable housing _within_ the city. However, this argument doesn't apply to Palo Alto. It might be a city, logistically speaking, but given its small size and extremely close proximity to other "cities" around it, it's really more of a neighborhood than a city. And I don't see the evil in having some neighborhoods within a metro area that are more upscale/exclusive than others.

<comment><USER22> None of those places are affordable anymore, with the possible exception of parts of East Palo Alto (and even that pool is drying up fast).

The problem with your logic is that just about every city on the peninsula has decided it can be the "exclusive/upscale" neighborhood in the region. And the ones that aren't on board with that can't possibly make enough of a dent in the regional jobs/housing imbalance on their own to matter. Thus people commuting to Palo Alto from Gilroy and Tracey.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm surprised that none of the YCs startups have tried to solve this problem. People really want 'affordable housing' and YC's motto to its startups is to 'make something people want'\- so what gives?

<comment><USER24> Does the problem scale beyond Palo Alto and San Francisco? Do residents of Topeka or Detroit have similar issues with housing affordability?

<comment><USER19> The problem in the Bay Area is that since 2010, we added about 500,000 jobs and only 50,000 housing units. Roughly speaking, jobs gives you a sense for demand and housing units give you a sense for supply. Our jobs-housing ratio is completely out of whack. That's what makes the Bay Area so expensive. I actually don't believe any of the nonsense about this being a "destination area" or that there is "insatiable demand" \- the demand is directly driven by job growth and you can see that plainly. People are not moving here from Nebraska and taking on housing that is multiple times more expensive just because it's pretty here- they're doing it because they got a job offer here. So no, Topeka and Detroit don't have this problem because their jobs growth isn't so far out of whack from their housing growth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> We see the same problem here in Europe, maybe to a less extreme extend. We have a few economy hotspots with rapidly raising real estate prices. One fundamental problem is, that those people, who could change things have litte interest in changes. Homeowners like to see their property value rising and for cities life is easier without a growing population.

If one says: let free markets take care of that, the problem is exactly that there are no free markets. A free market would mean, that anyone owning a piece of land could build there without limitations. But zoning laws and building size regulations prevent exactly that. As a consequence, building permits have exploded in value like taxi concessions once did. They are no longer tied to the economy of building/owning a cab, but of a limited market.

Munich is one of the most expensive cities in Germany, but it is closely surrounded by farmland. The housing problem could be solved easily, if more of it were allowed for building. But as this happens only at a very small speed, land value can multiplay up to 100x when a building permit is issued. This multiplier shows how skewed the market is.

</comment><comment><USER26> _" Downing and her husband, an attorney and programmer, respectively, say they simply could not afford to pay almost $150,000 per year for housing alone while starting a family in Palo Alto."_

It's interesting the difference a couple of miles make. $150,000 per year is $12,500 a month. The most expensive house for rent in East Palo Alto (3 miles away) is $6,000 (half that) and there are many choices under $4,000 per month. They could live in Gilroy and ride the train for free[1] for around $3,000 a month. They could do even better if they decided to rent an apartment or a townhouse instead of a detached single family home.

Whining about not being able to afford to live in a neighborhood where multi- millionaires want to live is not very productive. Unlike San Francisco there are a _lot_ of housing options up and down the peninsula, and since they work (or used to) in Palo Alto it is extremely close to the train station (so an easy "no drive") commute, which saves them even more because the City pays for their rail ticket and they don't have to buy gas.

[1] [https://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/40...](https://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/40189)

<comment><USER27> "They can move elsewhere" is not a reason to not build more housing - it is reasonable (and desirable) for people to live in the city that they work in. If your argument is that they can pay 3,000 a month for the privilege of living 50 (!) miles away from work in Gilroy then that still doesn't do anything for the "teachers, police officers, and other working and middle class people" \- you know, the people who actually keep the city running.

<comment><USER28> Or move the jobs out of ridiculously high COL areas?

An area of land has a carrying capacity dictated by the will of the people who live there through their votes. Why fight it when you can simply move work elsewhere?

<comment><USER23> The weather man. You get to 'live' almost twice as many hours because of the weather. Add top companies, upcoming companies, jobs, schools, colleges, city stuff, nature stuff, Sports and you just can't beat it. After all you only live once.

<comment><USER29> Huh? When I lived in SF all daylight hours were spent in the office...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> No owner of an oil company wants to live next to a refinery. No owner of an auto plant wants to live next to the plant. In the Industrial era, owners wanted to live far away from where the work was done because it was ugly and polluted. This created the suburban pattern and cheap housing close to work for workers. This is basically Oakland.

Rich Tech entrepreneurs, executives, highly paid programmers, and VCs want to live close to the tech "factory" and they want it to be a nice place. They don't care where everyone else who works there lives, just as long as they don't screw up their nice neighborhood with excess traffic, pollution and density.

It's as simple as that. All this stuff about economic policy and zoning laws and the general decline of western civilization is a whole lot of overanalyzing, IMHO.

</comment><comment><USER31> Is living in the Bay Area a privilege or a right?

<comment><USER19> It's not a privilege or a right. But it's a smart policy that will make us all richer, healthier, and more environmentally friendly. You can read more here: [https://medium.com/b-copy-com-longform-content/why-can-t- tho...](https://medium.com/b-copy-com-longform-content/why-can-t-those-people- move-to-be7f70e8ff91#.b5l2b7f3p)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Neither Hilliary nor Trump will stop feeding this monster.

</comment><comment><USER33> I found these whining hypocritical and snobbish. I can't afford a house in Palo Alto even if I work there. I don't complain about it just like I don't complain about not being able to purchase a luxury car. I don't expect the people who CAN afford these things to just lower the price and give them to me.

Many cities near Palo Alto have houses at a reasonable price, East Palo Alto, East Menlo Park, Mountain View, Redwood City, just to name a few. Why doesn't the author want to raise her kids there? BECAUSE SHE DOESN"T WANT HER KIDS TO GO TO SCHOOL WITH THE AVERAGE JOE! She wants her kids to go to a school where Joe Millionaires send their kids, while only paying the price of an average Joe. How could that be possible?

Her mentality is the same as that of the people she's accusing of not making a change. She just makes less money and she's loud.

<comment><USER16> Your theory doesn't explain why she's moving to Santa Cruz -- the schools are nothing special there.

<comment><USER19> We're moving to Santa Cruz because we wanted to live in a walkable area. If you travel up and down the peninsula, any house near the walkable downtown area is going to be $2M+. Yeah, sure, you can buy for less and have to travel by car absolutely everywhere. But why spend $1.5 to live in a dead cul de sac when you can spend the same money to live in a lively walkable area near the beach? If you're going to hang an albatross around your neck, you better think it's awesome. We're sick of driving everywhere and we want our kids to be able to go bike around the neighborhood safely.

<comment><USER34> As I've pointed out elsewhere on this post, you've setting up a ton of requirements that can't be met. While I appreciate that you want to live in a "walkable area", that's pretty much the first requirement you should drop. That's a "want to have", not a "must have" in housing. Like I've pointed out elsewhere, you're setting up specious arguments when you insist of a bunch of details, like living directly in PA, living directly in a walkable area, being able to bike on the streets in your neighborhood.

<comment><USER19> The point is that if two professional salaries aren't enough to buy a home in Palo Alto, then it highlights how much everyone else must be struggling. It highlights just how far away all of our service workers must live. Highlights just how miserable housing prices and commutes have gotten for the vast majority of people in the Bay Area who aren't lucky enough to have two professional salaries. If two professionals are, according to you, expected to have a half an hour commute, then everyone else is melting into their car seats every day.

<comment><USER34> By the way, in San Mateo, my children go to school with a number of children whose parents are "service workers" for neighboring cities. They live in San Mateo- most of them have bought fixer-uppers in areas like East of 101 where prices are lower (unfortunately, also very close to the freeway, with lots of pollution and noise). Obviously, this is anecdotal, but it's clear that there are people who have recently purchased in this area and are commuting to nearby cities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> The east coast of the USA was settled first, recall. What did they do back east to 'solve' this problem of "we're running out of space"? They increased the density of occupants per unit of land -- they built UPWARD.

That will have to happen here too. It's already happened in LA.

There will always be crybabies like this attorney during the growing pains of a popular 'destination city.'

For now, think of turning the Peninsula into tall buildings, concrete and asphalt. Think how the picturesque drive up highway 280 to San Francisco from the South Bay will be affected.

Everyone wants the nature. Not the tall buildings, concrete and asphalt.

Crybabies need to do precisely what this gal chose -- LEAVE. There's the door. That's how markets work -- when the price of a good or service is too high, demand drops. Well, she's a living example of a smidgen of demand disappearing.

People who don't like markets should move to Venezuela or North Korea or Cuba.

<comment><USER19> There is no free market in housing. Supply is very tightly constrained by the city via a system of very stringent zoning (3 stories max most of the city, only 3% of the city is even zone for multifamily housing) and taxes. What you see happening in the Bay Area isn't the result of the laws of supply and demand, it's the result of the laws passed by city councils. There's no developer in the world who wouldn't love to build more housing in one of the most booming places in the country. They're not not doing it because it doesn't make financial sense or because there's no demand there. They're not doing it because the housing market in the Bay Area has been regulated to death.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why Take a Compiler Course? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> It's always good to know about the basics. How memory work, memory allocators, cpu registers, compilers, &c.

You don't start racing cars by going to a F1 grand prix, you start with small slow karts and walk your way up. It's very visible when you work with people who started coding in C vs people who started with java/javascript.

<comment><AUTHOR> I couldn't quantify what good it amounts to career progression

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Because PL and compilers are interesting pieces of technology most use without understanding. Languages has become my favorite CS subject, my company is built around some ideas of transpilation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is it safe to assume we still have jobs for compiler concepts?

<comment><USER3> Yea, the nature of jobs is always changing, but I think the low level CS is safer than the webdev branch of the field.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Take a look at this blog post on using Ultra96 board with python over @ [https://www.96boards.org/blog/ultra-96-PYNQ/](https://www.96boards.org/blog/ultra-96-PYNQ/) w/ accompanying youtubes for much wow.</comment>


Show HN: grand - Version Control that Scales - <AUTHOR> http://www.grand.io/

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey all.

We are professional game developers who got tired of the state of version control for game development. Git and Hg just don't work really well for our needs. SVN and Perforce lack the distributed bits that make Git and Hg so awesome.

With grand we hope to bridge the gap and create a distributed version control system that can scale from small projects to extremely large projects, and give people working with large binary assets a viable alternative to Perforce.

We're going to start beta testing in a few months, so if grand sounds like your cup of tea, feel free to sign up or get in touch with us at email@example.com :)

</comment><comment><USER2> I guess you're using some sort of Bittorrent-like distribution scheme to download large files in the background?

And also perhaps support for truncated history like shallow clones in git, so a 1 GB movie file that has undergone 30 revisions doesn't take 30 GB unless you somehow indicate you actually care about those 30 revisions?

It would be nice if the site included more information about the specific pain points you're seeing with git on large projects with binary files, and the ways that grand will make life better.

It's an interesting product, but the information's a little too vague for me to sign up just yet.

<comment><AUTHOR> > I guess you're using some sort of Bittorrent-like distribution scheme to > download large files in the background?

That's the idea!

> And also perhaps support for truncated history like shallow clones in git, > so a 1 GB movie file that has undergone 30 revisions doesn't take 30 GB > unless you somehow indicate you actually care about those 30 revisions?

Bingo. To make an analogy to git, tree and commit objects are always synced, while blob objects are synced lazily, when desired.

> It would be nice if the site included more information about the specific > pain points you're seeing with git on large projects with binary files, and > the ways that grand will make life better.

Thank you for the feedback! I will try to address your concerns.</comment></comment>


Goodhart's Law - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

<comment><USER2> It reminds me of that old saw falsely attributed to W E Deming, "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it". I often see it come up on twitter, usually quoted by people whose... managerial ambitions I would prefer thwarted for the greater good :P

On the contrary Deming himself was very aware of this effect, and explicitly cautioned against running a company on just the numbers.</comment>


The Covid-19 pandemic is forcing a rethink in macroeconomics - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/07/25/the-covid-19-pandemic-is-forcing-a-rethink-in-macroeconomics <comment><USER4> > Talking about a revolution

> Many economists want precisely this state intervention, but it presents > clear risks. Governments which already carry heavy debts could decide that > worrying about deficits is for wimps and that central-bank independence does > not matter. That could at last unleash high inflation and provide a painful > reminder of the benefits of the old regime.

Sounds more like a plea than a warning, coming from The Economist. Prophecies of inflation seem like a joke in a time of record low inflation with high government deficits. Just look at the case of Japan for one.

<comment><USER5> Yep. There's a concerted effort to keep bringing up high inflation as a means of forcing more austerity. The mythical "high inflation" hasn't materialized but the cries continue to happen.

<comment><USER6> There is a reasonable argument that we do have inflation, it's just being shown in assets prices, not commodity prices. Things like education, housing, stocks, art, startup valuations, and more have signs of inflation even if oil and food prices don't.

<comment><USER5> I would agree to this but this isn't necessarily a blanket monetary policy of spending _too_ much money across the board and is a result of political capture by the wealthy where it's used to keep fueling the infinite growth machine for the already wealthy.

I mean housing policy in itself is entirely political: weaponized zoning laws and the lack of new construction to match the growth of the country are a direct result of this infinite growth machine. Housing being considered "an investment" will further perpetuate this price inflation because there is a vested interest in not allowing property values to decrease which is what happens when you can build to match demand.

<comment><USER7> The housing situation is one giant prisoners dilemma loose-loose, nobody wants to loose out. I've long believed that houses/land are overpriced but I've recently (Just prior to Covid) become a home owner because I needed somewhere to live and the mortgage repayments are cheaper than rent here. It could have been a spectacularly bad move.

<comment><USER8> Well, it's not a lose lose situation to the people that don't own property yet. They would greatly benefit from housing costs dropping, since they could afford to buy their own house or pay less in rent. The problem is that the people who don't own property tend to have less political power and influence than property owners.

<comment><USER7> I agree that the basic human need of shelter should be more affordable. I remember 10 years ago, when prices dropped after the financial crisis, people were saying "this is it" but it is politcally untenable to allow prices to drop. So those that didn't own eventually got tired of waiting and then when they have bought they don't want a drop, because who wants to burn money?

<comment><USER9> > I agree that the basic human need of shelter should be more affordable.

Affordable where? In West Texas or in Paris? Today, Paris' population is ~2M and the residential buildings cannot be taller than 50m by law. If 10M people want to live there, is it a "basic human right" to build 10M homes for them by replacing existing Parisian building by skyscrapers? What will that do to the existing fabric/culture of the city, and who gets to decide what is allowed? Existing residents or the would-be residents?

<comment><USER7> Perhaps the question isn't where but when.

40 years ago my parents were able to buy a large modern home for about 3 times times one of their salaries. For young people today it is more like 6 - <USER2> times the combined salaries of two people.

<comment><USER9> Where did your parents live? In mid-west or in suburbs or in Manhattan? Where are young people living today and are those similar locations as their parents?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I believe it's not really "rethink" as if we had once figured it out correctly in the past already. We are still actually thinking it for the first time, specially if you consider economists and policy makers were yet looking for "something new" (mentioned in the article) in macroeconomics during the last, what, 50 years? It's all pretty new, which suggests to me that it is all in a pretty extremist and radicalized state: it doesn't have to be 100% trickle down reaganomics or 100% state interventionism exclusively. I'm very confident a major crisis like this one will make key people finally realize that a mix of free global markets + welfare states focused on reducing inequality + democratic institutions will be the answer to many macroeconomics problems. Very few countries have realized this, the rest of the world meanwhile will keep shouting at each other doubling down on stupid policies not based in good examples and will keep blaming keynesianism or whatever neoliberal approach they can't understand.

<comment><USER11> They have already tried your strategy. Economists thought free global markets would lead to liberalization in other governments. That has proved to be utterly untrue with China and as a result they have become the worlds manufacturing hub, while becoming more and more totalitarian.

Production wise, an economy that is not concerned with democratic institutions or reducing inequality will outperform one that is. With that in mind, globalization is basically a race to the bottom human rights wise.

<comment><USER12> Your first point is correct, but your second point is not. Bruce Bueno de Mesquita demonstrated this in "The Logic of Political Survival", and others have come to similar findings.

Briefly, rising incomes under a non-democratic regime lead to a local maximum of growth, as totalitarianism is inextricably linked with economically inefficient institutions. As an autocrat, your top priority is to compensate those who keep you in power, which requires wealth extraction from the productive; this disincentivises efficient production. Unfortunately, nothing about rising wealth will necessarily lead to regime liberalization.

"Reducing inequality" is very different from democracy, and would probably lead to reduced economic efficiency, as it necessarily reduces the incentives for efficient production.

<comment><USER13> > "'Reducing inequality' ... would probably lead to reduced economic > efficiency, as it necessarily reduces the incentives for efficient > production."

this argument gets made a lot (for instance, re: the lower capital gains rate) because proponents want it to be true and its flaws are not immediately obvious, but it's unambiguously mistaken.

first, esteem from wealth is relative, and as long as there is a spectrum of wealth, the wealthiest will derive maximal esteem regardless of the absolute value of wealth. and that's the primary driver for the ambitious and greedy, not putting resources to highest and best use (which is at best a side effect). greater equality doesn't change that equation one iota.

second, it's plain to see that large accumulations of wealth are fairly unproductive, simply illustrated by the localized real estate bubbles driven by both wealth seeking safe harbor and PE-backed landlords seeking unproductive rents.

in fact, there seems to be a central optimum. relative to now, wider dispersion of wealth (less wealth disparity) seems to provide the best bang- for-buck when it comes to efficiency, putting more potential to work rather than mostly relegating it to the menial sidelines.

<comment><USER14> This argument seems to be ignoring the propensity of wealthy people in redistributionist environments to send false signals about their own level of wealth. E.G. Stalin commanded the wealth of a global superpower, but he dressed in uncomfortable military uniforms to signal solidarity with a poor majority. That kind of 'wealth falsification' seems likely to cause its own inefficiencies not present if wealth is considered the result of better serving the market.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm a real dummy when it comes to economics, so I have a question. What is the theory that buying assets like stocks boosts the economy? Doesn't this just create incentives to hold on to those stocks, so that you can reap the growth? Given that most stocks by far are held by wealthy people, it's hard to see how this stimulates demand, since they already are able to buy what they want. Theoretically, they might eventually sell the assets and then start a new business or something, but this seems very indirect. Isn't it easier to just hold the stocks/real estate? I don't really understand why holding a stock is considering investing, since the company (where the actual employment and production happens) doesn't see a benefit.

<comment><USER16> > Given that most stocks by far are held by wealthy people

I also won't pretend to be an expert here, but I think this is where your thinking may be going astray. There are lots of retirement-age people who are counting on their pension funds to fund their retirement. Pension fund managers assume steady growth in stocks, something like 7-10% per year. If stocks don't meet that threshold, major parts of the pension system run into big trouble. Pension plans have trillions of USD in assets. This article [1] estimates ~$9T. Retirement-age people in general are a powerful constituent.

[1] [https://www.investopedia.com/articles/credit-loans- mortgages...](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/credit-loans- mortgages/090116/what-do-pension-funds-typically-invest.asp)

<comment><USER17> Although many regular people have stocks held until retirement, they don't make up a majority of stock owners: [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the- richest-1-own-50-of-stock...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the- richest-1-own-50-of-stocks-held-by-american-households-150758595.html)

And according to Wikipedia data, in 2016 84% of stock was owned by the top 10%. That leaves 16% of the market to everyone else, a very small %.

[https://money.com/stock-ownership-10-percent- richest/](https://money.com/stock-ownership-10-percent-richest/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Financial repression[0], 0% interest rates and higher inflation, to inflate away trillions of $$ of national debt and drive up _nominal_ GDP, is the order of the next decade.

We've reached the limits of what central banks can do, from here on out it's direct government intervention in the commercial credit sector, and driving up demand through fiscal policy.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_repression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_repression)

<comment><USER19> Is there anywhere that explains why governments in the US don't build infrastructure, as a long-term investment?

<comment><USER20> My sense is that states and localities don't have the money for infrastructure projects. They mostly can't even afford maintenance on the infrastructure they have. Anything that gets built has to come from the feds somehow, so it's up to Congress.

The democratically controlled house would have to come up with a bill, then the republican controlled senate would have to agree to it, then the president would have to sign it. I don't think there is that much coordination happening at the federal level right now.

<comment><USER21> >I don't think there is that much coordination happening at the federal level right now.

There is, but it's divided between two types of bills: boring and sensationalist. Boring bills usually get coordination, bipartisan support, and little news coverage. Sensationalist bills, even if they align with both parties' platforms, get drawn out and played for show on the news.

Sadly, only a few acts can show at the same time. And in the current political world, new acts keep popping up (email dumps, whistleblowers, official tweets). So things that take a while, like infrastructure, never get to launch. (How many times has it been "infrastructure week"?)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Thomas Piketty, in [Capital in the Twenty-First Century][money]:

> Yet it seems to me that all social scientists, all journalists and > commentators, all activists in the unions and in politics of > whatever stripe, and especially all citizens should take a serious > interest in money, its measurement, the facts surrounding it, and > its history. Those who have a lot of it never fail to defend their > interests. Refusing to deal with numbers rarely serves the interests > of the least well-off.

[Rutger Bregman][ubi]:

> Poverty isn't a lack of character; it's a lack of cash.

[money]:[https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty-C...](https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/05/01/Piketty- Capital)

[ubi]:[https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lac...](https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash)

</comment><comment><USER15> [http://archive.is/15nqg](http://archive.is/15nqg)

</comment><comment><USER23> _Just as inequality creates a need for stimulus, they argue, stimulus eventually creates more inequality._

Particularly when your predominant stimulus tool is 'print money to buy assets rich people have.'

<comment><USER24> I think we will look back into economic history to our times in surprising disbelief at how simplistic our central bank policy is. A bit like how we laugh at how doctors used leeches to treat various ailments.

From 1929, central bankers learnt that liquidity can be a terrifying disease in an economy, 2008 showed that printing helps and here they go with their newly learned tool trying to fix all problems. Now they have to figure out that if you only inject that liquidity from the top, the inflation appears in certain kind of assets (mostly financial) and has a hard time reaching the rest of the economy, causing ever-rising inequality.

I think a more refined approach will be developed at some point, where they will start using two levers to steer the function of the economy. Money printing from below via UBI and regulating the inflation of day-to-day assets and money-printing from above and regulating the inflation of financial assets. This could allow finer control balancing target inflation rates of different assets and preventing rising inequality to tear down society.

<comment><USER25> UBI as a macroeconomic lever to pull is an intriguing idea - hadn't thought of that consequence. Although it figures changing the amounts would get extremely political.

<comment><USER26> There is the idea of job guarantee as an automatic stabilizer too.

The government grants a job to anyone that wants to work at a minimum wage salary. When unemployment grow, the government automatically expend more in the economy because more people access to the job guarantee.

When the economy recovers the private sector take workers away from the job guarantee through paying a little more than the minimum wage (or the same and better conditions) and the government spending is reduced.

It's both an inflation and an unemployment stabilizer. UBI doesn't have those properties.

<comment><USER27> What's the incentive to perform if you cannot be fired? A "guaranteed job" might as well be a simple unemployment check.

<comment><USER28> Job satisfaction / better jobs.

The guaranteed job need not be pleasant. Hell, many already aren't.

But a job would be guaranteed and would meet basic needs.

<comment><USER29> people would rather be unemployed than have an unpleasant minimum wage job.

<comment><USER28> That becomes an interesting dynamic expecially between universal guaranteed income and universal guaranteed employment.

But the original question was how to provide incentive. Assuming able-bodied persons must provide _some_ work, opportunities for advancement, more pay, or more favourable environment, and the prospect of _less_ attractive work, remain. Military and similar environments provide models, e.g., latrine duty.

Most people would prefer _some_ useful occupation, I suspect, however humble.

And again, with guaranteed employment, even the worst job would provide a livelihood.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> For those of us who've read _The Economist_ for two or three or four decades, perhaps more, "rethinking economics" is a reliably recurring evergreen which gets trotted out at times of crisis. When the paper is feeling merely foreward, a possibility that Keynes may not have been _completely_ wrong is broached. In periods of sheer desperation, a hesitant suggestion that subscribers might _read_ (but never follow) Marx is hauled from the deepest rhetorical powder magazines.

But that's about the limit of it.

The one change I _have_ noted is that where the tactic was invoked only once or twice a decade, its use now seems far more frequent, every few years in the aughts, now only months apart. A search of the paper's archives, or external Web search, largely confirms this:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rethinking+(macroeconomics%7Cmicro...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rethinking+\(macroeconomics%7Cmicroeconomics%7Ceconomics\)+site%3Aeconomist.com)

Whilst I'm strongly convinced that economic orthodoxy is sharply flawed, monetarism a stunted model like its progenitor, Keynes was insightful, and that Marx's class-consciousness has merits, full understanding and remedy for present concerns must look further afield.

MMT, W. Brian Arthur's complexity economics, and Steve Keen's work unifying capital, labour, class, and energy would be a good start.

<comment><USER25> I subscribe to some of aspects of classical liberalism, and the Economist was a must read for me during years.

It explains good ideas, but I would notice a strange formulaic structure they often used. Many poor-quality articles were subtitled "A [paradigm/company/event] brings [boon], but [caveat]".

<comment><USER28> Hence the old joke about the desire for a one-armed economist: they won't be always saying "on the other hand..."

Though this _does_ bring to mind Robert K. Merton's unintended consequences and overt/covert functions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> "a monetary policy that is not constrained by the presence of physical cash", that is like saying a democratic government that is not constrained by the need for voting.

<comment><USER31> Democracy doesn't require elections. Sortition is the classical example, but there are others.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Given that this is precisely what it's spent the last 30 years coming to understand, it's baffling that there is only a single paragraph in this article about Modern Monetary Theory. And one at that certainly doesn't convey the nuance of the theory at all.

For anybody seriously interested in the subject I would recommend the 2019 textbook 'Macroeconomics' by Mitchell, Wray & Watts.

<comment><USER33> I just finished the book "The Deficit Myth: Modern Monetary Theory and the Birth of the People's Economy" by Stephanie Kelton. Highly recommend to anyone who hasn't heard of MMT and wants a good intro with examples of how MMT could help today.

<comment><USER26> A good lecture by her (video):

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS9nP- BKa3M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS9nP-BKa3M)

<comment><USER34> This lecture was frustrating as hell to watch because she only addressed the concerns of naive critics of deficits who don't really understand how monetary policy works. She did basically nothing to address the concerns of people more versed in the topic, such as:

\- What happens when your deficit gets so high that it's obvious to the people buying treasuries you can't pay the interest they expect without massive inflation? \- How do you explain away stagflation from the 70s without being concerned about repeating it?

Basically, deficit spending is fantastic _for as long as you can get away with it_. The question is at what point will you no longer be able to get away with it? 10 years? 20? 100? No one knows. But at some point the interest burden of the debt itself requires more monetary expansion than purchasers of treasuries are willing to accept (inflation is the enemy of fixed interest assets), and then you have a problem. The US _recently_ doesn't have this problem because of its dominant economic and military position in the world (as well as the petro dollar/default currency status), but what happens when those things cease to be true?

Those are the concerns I wanted Stephanie to at least pay lip service to, but she conveniently didn't even mention them.

<comment><USER26> >>"Those are the concerns I wanted Stephanie to at least pay lip service to, but she conveniently didn't even mention them. "

She, and other MMT proponents, do it in other places. Obviously this was only an introduction. If you are really interested there is now a full textbook [1].

Your questions make me think that you don't understand the basic of what MMT is saying.

>>"[..]deficit gets so high that it's obvious to the people buying treasuries you can't pay the interest"

All the point of MMT is that governments that use its own floating currency don't need anybody do finance them. They could just spend without selling any treasuries. The only limit to that spending is inflationary and selling treasuries don't reduce the danger of inflation. This is not a belief, it's just a description of how the system works today.

For instance, now all the main governments in the world are applying stimulus at the same time. Where is the money coming from? Where is the inflation in Japan? And where the Yens from the increase in the Japanese public debt in the last 30 years come from?

>>"explain away stagflation from the 70s"

Frequently, problems of inflation comes from supply problems. Anyway looking to the QE programs, the current stimulus programs or Japan the last 30 years, should be obvious, by now, that monetarism is a fallacy.

That doesn't mean that you can't spend too much in the economy, but there are frequently other causes. In the 70's you have oil crisis, the Vietnam war, etc..

"[..] at some point the interest burden of the debt itself requires more monetary expansion "

A government with its own currency don't need to keep the fallacy of selling debt to "the markets", but if they choose to do it, and the debt is owned by the Central Bank, the money of the interest goes back to the government.

[1].- [http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?page_id=33139](http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?page_id=33139)

<comment><USER34> I started reading the book you linked shortly after it came out and gave up because of how shallow all the reasoning was. I think you and most MMT proponents don't understand that the concerns are long-term and deal with knock-on effects, not limited to what is happening right now, and that having your own fiat currency is not a magic wand that you can use to wave away problems with no repercussions.

Gregory Mankiw, an economist at Harvard, voices my criticisms with the book better than I can: [1]

I think it's funny that you point to Japan as a counterexample here. The reason Japan doesn't have high inflation is _because the Bank of Japan refused to print money for 20 years_ [2]. If it did when other countries did not, inflation would be high.

To your next point, you kind of answer it yourself. Why is there no inflation when all the main governments of the world are applying stimulus at the same time? Well, first, _because they 're all doing it at the same time_. As soon as you remove that fact, the situation changes entirely because the economy (and currency/bond markets!) are global, not local. And second, _because demand is historically low due to a pandemic_. Again, when you remove that fact, everything changes.

On stagflation, I think you are misinformed about what causes/caused it. [3] is a good summary: federal interference in supply + printing money. If that sounds a lot like what MMT proposes as a magic wand, it's because it is.

Finally, I think it's important to distinguish that many critics of MMT, myself included, don't disagree with the marketing-friendly premise that debt spending can be a good thing. We disagree with the idea that it's an unlimited tool with zero repercussions. At some point there is a reckoning - <USER3> unsustainable inflation (like 1970s US) or effectively dead economic growth (like Japan) depending on how the central bank reacts. We should be concerned about these things and take steps to make sure that the time of reckoning stays far in the future.

[1] [https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/skeptics_guid...](https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/skeptics_guide_to_modern_monetary_theory.pdf)

[2] [https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/japan/m2-growth#:~:tex...](https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/japan/m2-growth#:~:text=Japan's%20Money%20Supply%20M2%20increased,5.1%20%25%20in%20the%20previous%20month.&text=In%20the%20latest%20reports%2C%20Japan's,of%20Import%20in%20Jun%202020).

[3] [https://www.thebalance.com/what-is- stagflation-3305964](https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-stagflation-3305964)

<comment><USER26> About the Mankiw criticism, I direct you to the answer from people more knowledgeable that me [1]

About the stagflation I recognize that I have not looking enough into it (yet) to be able to have a meaningful debate.

About Japan, your comment: "the BOJ refused to print money for 20 years" puzzles me. The public debt of Japan is, currently, around 240% of GDP, and around half of it is owned by the BOJ. If that's not your interpretation of "printing money", what is it?

I don't understand neither your comment "[..] no inflation when all the governments of the world [..] at the same time". Are you making a reference to the external sector aspects of inflation?

You say: "[..] debt spending [..] We disagree with the idea that it's an unlimited tool with zero repercussions."

Please, note that MMT doesn't say that. MMT says that excessive deficits can be inflationary in a problematic way, what MMT disagree is that public debt (the accumulate of past deficits) is problematic.

Finally, thanks for engaging in this discussion. It seems to me that it's reasonable that people disagree in policies, because policies come from values and those can be very different. What we should be able to agree is in how the financial system currently works. MMT have some policy proposals but that's not the important thing, the important thing is that the description of how the system works is different and, should be falsifiable. Sometimes, in this kind of exchange, I despair because it seems the other person and I are talking past each other.

I think I found your webpage, would you be willing to continue this exchange by mail? I have some problems understanding what is what the MMT critics don't understand. In the worst case scenario we will finish with a better understanding of the other position.

[1] \- [http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43900](http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43900) \- [http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43961](http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43961) \- [http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43997](http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=43997)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> This used to be called "secular stagnation". There's not much forward progress, but nobody really understands why. Japan hit this first, in their 1989 housing crash. In the mid-1980s, Japan seemed poised to dominate the world economy. After the crash, Japan never came back.[1]

There was a fear that the US would hit that after the 2008 crash. But the US did come back. At least until the epidemic.

Macroeconomists think macroeconomics determines what happens. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, central bankers are totally lost about what to do.

Should a country have an industrial policy? The traditional answer in capitalist countries is "no". But it worked for Japan, S. Korea, Singapore, and China, which now make most of the world's good stuff. China's current industrial policy, set in 2015, is called "China 2025"[2][3]. The plan is to achieve dominance in the remaining sectors where China is behind - aircraft, ICs, etc. It's not talked about much outside China, but it's still the operating plan. The main items in 2015 were:

1\. New advanced information technology

2\. Automated machine tools & robotics

3\. Aerospace and aeronautical equipment

4\. Maritime equipment and high-tech shipping;

5\. Modern rail transport equipment

6\. New-energy vehicles and equipment

7\. Power equipment

8\. Agricultural equipment

9\. New materials

10\. Biopharma and advanced medical products

Halfway through the 10-year plan, China is doing well on at least 7 of those items.

Western countries are assuming that the knobs controlled by the financial system determine what happens. When the biggest country on the planet isn't playing that game, that approach may not be competitive.

[1] [https://www.csis.org/analysis/made- china-2025](https://www.csis.org/analysis/made-china-2025)

[2] [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/made-in- china-202...](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/made-in- china-2025-the-industrial-plan-that-china-doesnt-want-anyone-talking-about/)

[3] [https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2019/1/21/saupload_J...](https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2019/1/21/saupload_Japan- Nikkei-225-Index-2017-04-03-chart.png)

<comment> barry-cotter > This used to be called "secular stagnation". There's not much forward > progress, but nobody really understands why. Japan hit this first, in their > 1989 housing crash. In the mid-1980s, Japan seemed poised to dominate the > world economy. After the crash, Japan never came back.

Scott Sumner disagrees on no one understanding this. They're not printing enough money. Basic sketch of the market monetarist position is that Friedman was right about money being really important but very, very wrong about the appropriate target. Keep printing money until nominal GDP growth hits target, then stop. Better to target NGDP future to reduce instability. Japan's central bank's is up there with the Fed causing the Great Depression by contracting the money supply by a third at the beginning of a recession in terms of economic mismanagement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> The article pleads for more workers rights and bargaining power. While I think that is a noble wish, it is an illusion, and they know it. The article describes "out of the box" thinking, but it is still hopelessly trapped.</comment>


How We Got the Favicon (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://thehistoryoftheweb.com/how-we-got-the-favicon/ <comment><USER2> When I'm testing locally with a trivial site, those favicon 404 requests bugged me when checking the log. I'm also a little bit obsessive about keeping my pages small. This resulted in me going down a rabbit hole of the GIF spec to see the smallest inline blank favicon I could create. I ended up with:

      <link rel="icon" href="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhEAAQAAAAACwAAAAAAQABAAACASgAOw==">

Putting that small line in my HEAD tag gets rid of those annoying extra requests, and results in no favicon (it's just a totally transparent image).

If interested in the format, I put a gist up at [https://gist.github.com/billti/81d4b601c9022ba3655a3a03873ca...](https://gist.github.com/billti/81d4b601c9022ba3655a3a03873caff8) with the small node.js script I wrote to generate various examples. (You can see more examples and links in the comments in the top if interested).

<comment><AUTHOR> I was looking into the same issue and learned that modern browsers now also support SVG images for favicons.

So far, this is what I've come up with -

      <link rel="icon" href="data:image/svg+xml,%3csvg%3e %3c/svg%3e">

<comment><USER2> Interesting solution! It shows at the "no favicon" image on the page tab (the dog-eared page icon) in the latest Chrome/Edge for me, not as a blank/clear icon. (I get that same result when I used GIFs that were invalid).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for letting me know. I probably have to tweak it a bit to make sure it's valid in all browsers.

While researching, I've found some fun things people have been doing using text and emojis in SVGs [0]

[0] [https://lean8086.com/articles/using-an-emoji-as-favicon- with...](https://lean8086.com/articles/using-an-emoji-as-favicon-with-svg/) [1] [https://css-tricks.com/emojis-as-favicons/](https://css- tricks.com/emojis-as-favicons/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I've never heard the definitive story of how autocomplete got added to the URL bar, but it might've been a particular route from Emacs...

I was talking with a manager for one of the Web browsers in '96, and mentioned a little Emacs add-on, [https://www.neilvandyke.org/webjump/](https://www.neilvandyke.org/webjump/) , which combined Emacs autocompletion with a bunch of arbitrary site-specific code to be a smart hotlist/bookmarks/search/etc. for Web browsers. The manager suddenly ignored everything else we were talking about, which I thought was more important, and drilled down into this little Emacs curiosity. Next thing I knew, completion was added to their browser's URL bar (but not the other things WebJump did).

The autocompletion wasn't my invention (it might've been Emacs's, decades earlier), of course, and a lot of people knew about it, including via noted Emacs hacker JWZ famously at Netscape, so there are numerous other paths it could've coincidentally gotten into browsers. I'd just be slightly tickled if that one conversation happened to be the prompt for someone's effort to add it.

</comment><comment><USER3> When people went through or analyzed their Web logs, bandwidth was expensive, and a page load was often 1 small HTML request plus maybe a GIF/JPEG or 3... the addition of these favicon requests was annoying. Also, Microsoft was widely disliked by Internet people, so this didn't help.

Another funny thing about the favicons... Sun had a template that a lot of people ended up copying, but the file format contained multiple resolutions. So it wasn't that unusual to see a Sun favicon logo on a site that wasn't Sun, because some site developer or Webmaster used Sun's template, replaced only the one for the resolution they used, so it looked good to them.

</comment><comment><USER4> I've always been deeply annoyed by the name "favicon," which as the article notes has its roots in the "favorites" list.

No, Microsoft, when I marked this page for later, that doesn't make it my favorite. Maybe I'm researching political enemies, or have a "favorites" folder of "software companies I can't stand"

Between this and the "My Computer" icon from Windows 95, I have a deep and abiding hatred of whomever was in charge of naming things at Microsoft in the nineties.

<comment><USER5> C:\Documents and Settings\Lammy\

<comment><USER6> Yeeesss, let's just add an extra 25 characters to our user's root directory. Oh and also add capitals and spaces to it, within a system that typically hates those.

<comment><USER5> My totally baseless assumption is that it was a cute passive way to force developers to properly support UNC Paths of all types by making something as essential as %USERPROFILE% include spaces and intentionally break all the eight-dot-three conventions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A nice thing about the initial ico-format is that it can contain multiple resolutions. Nowadays you will see multi-res using separate files but that took a long time to happen.

<comment><USER8> Indeed, I think ICO is the only common-use format to support that (I guess JPEG "sort of" does support it but not in any usable multi-resolution way).

Mipmaps are common in video game graphics format though!

<comment><USER9> macOS's .icns files (typically used for app icons) can (and usually do) also store multiple resolutions in a single file.

<comment><USER10> > common-use format

Pretty much nothing outside the apple ecosystem supports .icns

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> Const-me > it was not at all unusual to see browser makers experiment with new features > and ideas in the hopes of gaining some sort of advantage

Another feature introduced this way was AJAX in IE 5.0, specifically the XMLHttpRequest JavaScript object.

It's funny how the whole modern web 2.0 was enabled by an obscure feature. For the initial few years only Microsoft's own products used that. It was implemented for Outlook web access, a component of their Exchange server that allows users to access their e-mails and relevant stuff without Outlook installed.

Then google found about it, made gmail.com, the rest is history.

<comment><USER11> There were other interfaces too - RSExecute should have worked with IE3+ and NN3+ [1].

And XMLHTTP while shipped quickly was hardly accidental. MSXML was Microsofts big push for XML, it was always meant to fetch data without page reload (XML data islands in IE4). And it was ActiveX component which was bringing Microsoft to the Web strategy.

Another famous ActiveX-based software - Flash.

[1] [https://daurril.org/wrox/ASPToday/990930-191.htm](https://daurril.org/wrox/ASPToday/990930-191.htm)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> One of the more interesting techniques we used for finding phishing websites was to start indexing the favicons. Since then we've used them for lots of other cool things and I'm always surprised when people don't know what they are. They can also be used to provide a somewhat different perspective of what the Internet looks like:

[https://faviconmap.shodan.io/](https://faviconmap.shodan.io/)

</comment><comment><USER13> > Incidentally, you'd be surprised just how many relatively major browser > features have snuck their way into releases like this.

I don't think I would! Explains a lot about the nightmares of web development.

<comment><USER14> And explains XmlHttpRequest, also from Microsoft.

<comment><USER15> You mean XMLHttpRequest. The two acronyms are capitalized differently for added quality.

<comment><USER14> I loled

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> A while later Mozilla added support for favicons to be any graphics format. When it went live in nightly builds, I immediately changed the favicon at MozillaNews to be an animated GIF, thus creating the world's first animated favicon.

</comment><comment><USER17> It's interesting to read about how it actually happened, but it does seem like one of those inevitable features that would've been added sooner or later.

<comment><USER18> What do you consider inevitable about it? It feels like bookmarks are falling out of fashion, at least in that nobody looks at them in their traditional list format, and they are mostly useful for url bar autocompletion.

And I don't remember seeing favicons of random web sites in the URL bar, which is how they were otherwise prominently featured when introduced.

So if anything, I would say their existence was short-lived but their demise was inevitable ;)

More interesting feature that was introduced with IE (3 I think) was link hovering, and Netscape only caught up with 4.0 which took ages to come out. That has changed the accepted styling for hyperlinks forever and was the first instance of smooth non-JS "animations" in wide use!

Another interesting thing was the "active desktop" that came out with IE4 I think, though that never caught on. It was still fun to put a web page as your desktop background on NT4 which I used during that time before moving full time to GNU/Linux.

<comment><USER7> Favicons live on in the tab.

<comment><USER19> Not just live on, but are essential in navigation. I have so many open tabs that the favicon is the only differentiating thing between them. When I last tried to switch to FF from Chrome the lack of pre-cached favicons made all my bookmarks look like shit and I just couldn't stand it, so I bounced back.

<comment><USER20> On Firefox, you could go to the Library and right click the Bookmarks folder, choose "Open all in tabs". It'll take a moment but all your icons should be fetched afterwards.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've kind of wondered what percentage of HTTP requests are requests for non- existant favicon.ico files.

<comment><USER22> It could be time for browser maintainers to start removing support for automatic favicon.ico requests, and fall back to simply supporting the meta tag.

<comment><USER10> This would break the favicon for direct image links, PDFs and automatic directory listings.

<comment><USER22> Well, the browser could just stop doing it for certain types of content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> It was an interesting time because IE actually broke a lot of new trails on the web by breaking standards and single-handedly adding features. Netscape, the more "standards-complaint" browser, lost out because of conformity.

</comment><comment><USER24> thehistoryoftheweb.com is a cultural treasure and I'm very happy it's there. One thing that would make me like it more: if I could submit a pull request or two....

</comment><comment><USER25> More Microsoft Suck</comment>


Keystone: A lightweight multi-architecture assembler framework - <AUTHOR> http://www.keystone-engine.org/ <comment><USER2> I have used it, and it is quite flexible. However, it inevitably fell behind when newer instructions came out, and it is not very well maintained. I have submitted two issues (#398, #407) that have been open for a year with no comment...

<comment><USER3> Perhaps Capstone might serve your fuzzing needs better, as it can represent instructions symbolically. For example: [https://github.com/aquynh/capstone/blob/master/arch/X86/X86M...](https://github.com/aquynh/capstone/blob/master/arch/X86/X86Mapping.c)

<comment><USER4> A lot of the capstone archs are tablegenned from LLVM MC tables, and they didn't open source their mods to tablegen for whatever reason.

It's a lot harder to add stuff like that to capstone on most of their archs, unfortunately. : \

[https://github.com/aquynh/capstone/blob/master/arch/PowerPC/...](https://github.com/aquynh/capstone/blob/master/arch/PowerPC/PPCGenDisassemblerTables.inc)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Related:

[http://www.capstone-engine.org/](http://www.capstone-engine.org/)

[http://www.unicorn-engine.org/](http://www.unicorn-engine.org/)

</comment><comment><USER5> I was expecting a nice DSL for writing assembler

<comment><USER6> i think fasm has a nice assembler syntax and i wish it were adopted everywhere.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Keystone & LLVM: [http://www.keystone- engine.org/docs/beyond_llvm.html](http://www.keystone- engine.org/docs/beyond_llvm.html)

Keystone Showcase: [http://www.keystone- engine.org/showcase](http://www.keystone-engine.org/showcase)</comment>


Blackhat SEO games Reddit, blogs about it - <AUTHOR> http://www.esrun.co.uk/blog/cheating-reddit-auto-votes/ <comment><USER2> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1774854>

</comment><comment><USER3> "I'm absolutely stoked that my post made it onto two of my favourite sites- HackaDay.com and TheRegister."

Congratulations, you've now made it here, too.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not that guy. But I wouldn't be surprised if he is on here... he could be anyone.</comment></comment>


Catch 'em All: Using an Arduino to Trade Pokemon - <AUTHOR> http://pepijndevos.nl/2015/02/13/catch-em-all.html <comment><USER2> This brought back some memories.

In the GBA days I saw a schematic to link the GB classic to a parallel port[0] and asked my older brother (I was still a child) to build it because I dreamed of trading my Pokémon online, just tunneling the data over the internet.

Unfortunately the GB link was engineered to work under low latencies only and my dream was crushed. I'm not sure if it was the games lacking support for lagged packets or if it was the hardware, but it just didn't work. It worked for local communication with an emulator, though!

Maybe now, with low-latency fiber all around, my dream is feasible? Contemporary Pokémon games are internet-ready so I guess it's not worth the effort, but it might be fun to live that dream again :)

[0] [http://www.devrs.com/gb/files/gb2pp7.gif](http://www.devrs.com/gb/files/gb2pp7.gif)

<comment><USER3> BGB has link over tcp/ip. I have only tried it locally so I don't know about latency problems. Maybe you could lower the emulation speed?

<comment><USER2> You've hit the nail :) Indeed, modern emulators seem to lower the emulation speed: the game varies its speed and stutters (I guess depending on each packet's actual latency) when using the link over Bluetooth in an Android emulator.

IIRC, the connection was lost when the GB couldn't synchronize with its peer. I wanted it to work with the real GB, hit that wall and unfortunately lost interest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wonder if he can create a Missingno this way.

<comment><USER2> Definitely. You can fill the data structures to make any Pokémon imaginable (Missingno was just particularly odd data), store it in the Arduino ROM (instead of grabbing the traded Pokémon) and let the magic happen.

This made me think of real-life Pokémon vending machines :) Or even recreating a physical Bill's PC!

<comment> slipstream- "particularly odd data"?

MISSINGNO. is basically just a certain species value (decimal 31, 32, 50, 52, 56, 61, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 79, 80, 81, 86, 87, 94, 95, 115, 121, 122, 127, 134, 135, 137, 140, 146, 156, 159, 160, 161, 162, 172, 174, 175 or 181).

<comment><USER2> Which is particularly odd because those values shouldn't happen in regular gameplay (although they did!)

<comment><USER5> It was a pretty normal corner-case bug surrounding the shared use of memory space.

In short, the address used to specify creature ID served double-duty, and in a certain case does not get cleared properly.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.#Characteristics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.#Characteristics)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> slipstream- Somewhat relevant: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9046789](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9046789)

</comment><comment><USER6> You also can, in some emulators, simulate two GameBoys with a link cable.</comment>


Debian 7.4 Released - <AUTHOR> http://www.debian.org/News/2014/20140208

<comment><USER3> I usually use Arch Linux but I've been playing with Debian lately. I don't like dpkg as much as I like pacman, but it a really nice distro (assuming the age of some of its software packages doesn't bother you).

<comment><USER4> Sigh... People always remark on Debian having old packages. Well the "stable" repository might be stable which in this case means run-in-production- for-5+-years-on-many-archs without problems.

But then there is "testing", and "unstable" too which gets newer packages quite often. I personally run "unstable" as my main development machine and have for many years. Even "unstable" is very stable, but might require some manual work once-a-year or so, with a solution often easily found by some google-fu.

Then there is also "experimental", which might very well have broken dependencies etc.

The cool thing is you can run stable, but then pick some packages from unstable using what is called apt-pinning. This way you can get a rock solid base, but use newer packages of some software. Best of both worlds!

<comment><USER5> Hey thanks for "apt pinning". Never knew about that. One more question - <USER2> do you get the Ubuntu PPAs into Debian? It seems a lot of new software is exclusively published on Ubuntu.... at least that's what it seems from Webupd8 and omgbuntu

<comment><USER6> Answer to your question and method for figuring out other "how to do something ubuntu in debian" questions. A great way to answer a lot of these questions is simply use `apt-cache search` however this is not always enough. The next thing to try is apt-file. Install apt-file:

      # apt-get -y install apt-file

Update apt-file db (might do this on install, I forget):

      # apt-file update

Now the bit you are interested in: How do you add PPAs in ubuntu? Answer: `add-apt-repository`

Does debian have something named add-apt-repository?

      # apt-file search add-apt-repository
      software-properties-common: /usr/bin/add-apt-repository
      software-properties-common: /usr/share/man/man1/add-apt-repository.1.gz

That looks familiar.

      # apt-get install -y software-properties-common
      # add-apt-repository ppa:libreoffice/ppa

As a long time debian fanboy I have to say "new software is exclusively published on Ubuntu" was kind of funny. Unless you were talking about `upstart` ;) A great reseource for debian is the Debian Administrators Handbook. The section on pinning is:

[http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.apt- get.html#...](http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.apt- get.html#sect.apt.priorities)

<comment><USER5> No I'm not referring to upstart. Incidentally, I'm pretty familiar with apt in the Ubuntu context, but this is not what I was referring to.

For example, take a look at this - [http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/01/turpial-3-available- ubunt...](http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2014/01/turpial-3-available-ubuntu). How do you get this into Debian? This is what I mean by software that is published for ubuntu. I do not mean that it cannot be built for debian, but rather that it is not PUBLISHED for debian.

Or is the only option to do a dpkg-build?

<comment><USER6> I don't know what you are missing here. Did you think I spent all that time typing about add-apt-repository because a-a-r was a complete red herring? Did you notice that the page you link to mentioned a-a-r?

      $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:effie-jayx/turpial

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> robinson-wall I can't find any official announcement of it, but it looks like there are now official HVM AMIs available with the release of 7.4: [https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud/AmazonEC2Image/Wheezy](https://wiki.debian.org/Cloud/AmazonEC2Image/Wheezy)

<comment><USER7> If you're running Debian on EC2, do you have the problem where restart from within the instance doesn't complete? (Have you found a way around it?)

Edit: Not sure whether there was a real problem before (vs PEBKAC), but the new images _do_ reboot successfully (takes about 2 minutes). Now to get systemd running...!

<comment> robinson-wall No, I'm not noticed this. That said, in the past (2years+) I have contacted AWS support about an instance that wouldn't start and was told shutting down from within an instance would normally work, but was not officially supported.

I think they were just looking for a scapegoat in that particular case.

<comment><USER7> Thanks.

For anyone reading along, reboot does now work, and I was just able to install systemd (apt-get update, apt-get install systemd, edit /etc/default/grub, edit /etc/fstab to remove the systemd-unsupported nobootwait line, update-grub, init 6). Thank you Debian cloud team :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Nice to see openssl enabling assembler implementations on arm. Seems to improve scp performance a lot!

</comment><comment><USER9> What is the preferred way of upgrading from 7.3 with aptitude?

On the wiki [https://wiki.debian.org/Aptitude](https://wiki.debian.org/Aptitude) they say dist-upgrade is no longer recommended, I am a bit confused (I don't keep up with linux world very much, I am just a linux hobbyist).

Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER10> Does anyone have a link for a netinstall image hosted via BT? The one on the debian page is broken.

[https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/](https://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/)

<comment><USER3> I don't think the 7.4 images have pushed out yet. I always download the newest version, in case I need it, and its not available for me yet either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> There a typo in the HN title.</comment>


Hiring non-U.S. citizen for tech work? Export license might be needed - <AUTHOR> http://www.ballardspahr.com/alertspublications/legalalerts/2010-12-20_nonimmigrantworkerpetition.aspx

<comment><USER2> We are now importing/exporting thoughts. How much should they charge for a bad piece of code vs a good piece of code? Ridiculous.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's been that way for many years -- the term "export," in respect of technical data, includes disclosure to a foreign national even in the U.S. See the last sentence in this excerpt from the Commerce Department's "Introduction to Commerce Department Export Controls" (which has links to information about State Department export controls as well):

 _"How an item is transported outside of the United States does not matter in determining export license requirements. For example, an item can be sent by regular mail or hand-carried on an airplane. A set of schematics can be sent via facsimile to a foreign destination, software can be uploaded to or downloaded from an Internet site, or technology can be transmitted via e-mail or during a telephone conversation. Regardless of the method used for the transfer, the transaction is considered an export.

"An item is also considered an export even if it is leaving the United States temporarily, if it is leaving the United States but is not for sale (e.g., a gift), or if it is going to a wholly-owned U.S. subsidiary in a foreign country.

"Even a foreign-origin item exported from the United States, transmitted or transshipped through the United States, or being returned from the United States to its foreign country of origin is considered an export.

"Finally, release of technology or source code subject to the EAR to a foreign national in the United States is "deemed" to be an export to the home country of the foreign national under the EAR."_

<http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/exportingbasics.htm> (extra paragraphing added)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> As a permanent resident in the US would that affect me?

<comment><USER4> From what I gather, no - this only affects people in the US on employer sponsored visas like the L or H visas. If you are a permanent resident or on a non-employment based visa, then this does not affect you.</comment></comment>


Windows 7's XP Mode - Virtually worth it - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/01/windows_7_xp_mode_review/

<comment><AUTHOR> Second opinion by author with better bedside manner (last one raised a few hackles: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=586095> ;-)

This one actually examined the patient (not just the paperwork), which does not mean the diagnostic is really any better. In spite of the title, "a severe delay between striking a key and text appearing" does not sound good.</comment>


Highest paying developer jobs (4 years exp, no contract & no management)  - <AUTHOR>

I'd like to get some opinions on what the highest paying developer jobs are please. Here in the UK, there seems to be an average of £45,000 ($65,000) for Java and C++ jobs, with PHP faring about 25% lower, on average.
Also, please could we avoid the unique & specialist jobs which pay well into the six figure range as they are irrelevant to most developers.
To confirm: These are developer jobs, not management or contract projects where the rewards are much greater. This is pure "employed developer". <comment><USER3> Strange that you've correctly identified that a "unique & specialist job" would more than double your salary, yet you make a point of saying you don't want one of those.

In other words, you have all the information you need in that paragraph you wrote to _double your salary_ , but you don't seem interested in doing so.

Why is that?

There are lots of specialties, most of which are quite easy to become an expert in. Some of which can be accomplished simply by describing yourself to your next potential employer as a "___ specialist". If you're smart enough to have learned to program computers for a living, you're probably smart enough to learn to program (for example) iPhones for a living.

I'd say that's a much better idea than describing yourself as an "employed developer" and seeking out the sort of place that pays market average wages for average people.

</comment><comment><USER4> I started in Investment banking tech for $50k/year + benefits, ultimately adding $20k bonus after 6 months. By year 4, my total comp rose to $125k + benefits. Currently, looking for a substantial increase of 50% or more. I have experience in C++, C#, Java, Python, SQL and lots of out vendor software systems with actue knowledge in front to back financial derivative trading. Mind you, this all transpired from a couple years before the recession until recently.

I am somewhat of a specialist now, but didnt start off that way. Truth is working harder and often smarter than the rest got me half. way here - <USER2> other half came from standing up for myself and taking a leap of faith here and there. But at 4 yrs, you've got bargaining power on your side so if I can suggest anything, generally getting more base salary is better than bonus (with some very notable exceptions - ie. Startup stock options) simply for the time value of money and more peace of mind. But more importantly, always work as if you're being paid more than you deserve - its your own blood, sweat and tears that will actually bring what you deserve

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This wasn't a question for 'me' per se, I'm trying to get a feel for the industry on a wider scale, if you will. The reason I asked to exclude 'specialist jobs' is because I think they distort the information I was attempting to garner.

Thanks @JimmyJenkins = that's the type of information I'm after.

Thumbs down @jasonkester for your 'troll type' response.

</comment><comment><USER5> Have you tried looking on GlassDoor[1]?

[1] <http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/index.htm>

</comment><comment><USER6> Investment Banking and domain specific consultancy (ERP/CRM/BI/etc).

London salaries have a premium.

<comment><USER7> finance in london is moving stateside

<comment><USER6> You're talking about an industry that employs hundreds of thousands of people, not some small start-up. It's not going to disappear anytime soon.</comment></comment></comment>


Review my startup [styxvpn.com] + free account giveaway - <AUTHOR> https://www.styxvpn.com <comment><USER2> On your features page you say "Know that while connected to StyxVPN your privacy is foremost in our minds. We don't keep records of what you do or where you go or what you do and prevent your ISP and anyone else who is curious from doing the same."

How do you plan on withstanding network provider (and their upstream) pressure in response to DMCA notices related to file sharing activity?

As you are operating network equipment (a VPN concentrator) in the US, how are you complying with CALEA and still preserving the privacy of your users?

You operate on a monthly recurring billing model. What prevents a LEA from subpoenaing billing records to determine who is using your service and then comparing traffic patterns with CALEA captures from your network provider and your customer's network providers?

<comment><AUTHOR>
      How do you plan on withstanding network provider (and their upstream) pressure in response to DMCA notices related to file sharing activity?

Throughout our experience in the vpnworld most of the letters generated from this have been spam or bot generated and while we worked for other companies, there responses varied. We will address each on a case by case basis with our in-house counsel and/ /take the appropriate steps to resolve it swiftly.

      As you are operating network equipment (a VPN concentrator) in the US, how are you complying with CALEA and still preserving the privacy of your users?

Through the research of our legal representation we are not a concentrator though that may be the closest designation to what we do. We have found that our model falls outside of any within the CALEA while many of our larger competitors that also are ISP's do not.

      You operate on a monthly recurring billing model. What prevents a LEA from subpoenaing billing records to determine who is using your service and then comparing traffic patterns with CALEA captures from your network provider and your customer's network providers?

Could this happen? Absolutely, though there are no documented cases of this we have found that deal with a personal VPN provider on record and many of our competitors have been in business a great deal longer. I would imagine as well that something like this could be done without subpoena as well through back door channels should their be a particular dire need. There is no perfect privacy whatsoever and as individuals in a free society we must take responsibility for our own actions.

<comment><USER2> Thanks for the reply.

I guess I don't see how you can terminate VPN connections from users and not be a VPN concentrator but since you have a loophole, best of luck to you!

I have a small pile of routers with 3DES cards for terminating business VPNs at work (ISP) and have pondered offering end-user VPNs but the potential legal hassles weren't worth it to us.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> _Bonus: Watch American TV on Hulu and Listen to music on Last.fm / Pandora even if you don't live in the US_

From a user point of view, I think that's pretty cool. However, are you sure it's legal? I'd think it's greyish at best (but IANAL), and you might get a lot of unwanted attention from the big media companies for advertising this so openly. Are you sure you have the pockets to stand up to them in court even if you are sure that it's legal?

<comment><USER4> " Bonus: Watch American TV on Hulu and Listen to music on Last.fm / Pandora even if you don't live in the US"

I almost left the site, then it clicked features. Meh. Then I saw those lines and thought WOW, s/he's got something going here.

Take away: Stop listing features and start listing benefits. Otherwise lot of users will miss out on a great app, and you may miss out on your opportunity.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not sure I understand...isn't being able to watch online American TV / listen to American radio a benefit? or do you mean we should replace the features page with "benefits" such as being able to browse US-only websites?

<comment><USER5> The second; you want to answer not "what does this do" but "how will this impact my life".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Design wise:

The <https://www.styxvpn.com/aboutus.php> page could use some better line height in the small paragraph blurbs (something like line-height: 1.5; or so).

Usability wise: It would look more professional to have your email address for support formatted like a normal email. Javascript or even an image would do that for you. Not sure how unexperienced users would understand "support [at] styxvpn [dot] com"

Ps: Would there be a way for users – mac users in particular – to use the service with the built in VPN software?

Any free accounts still floating around? :)

</comment><comment><USER7> Design is nice. SSL certificate is fine for me (chrome). On the signup page the 'Sign up now' button is off center (<http://www.pastethat.com/CemUT>). Although you hint at it with Hulu and Pandora, you may want to add that the servers are located in the USA. In the future you could think about adding a server in the UK, BBC iPlayer has very good content.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the feedback!

We are planning to expand in Europe (UK, Sweden, Switzerland and possibly Germany) and Asia (HK).

I have added our servers' location to the main page too.

Thanks again!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Any feedback / criticism is most welcome!

I've launched a few days ago and it's currently in beta mode. I'm giving away 30 1-month accounts to HN members. Just send me an email (email@example.com) and I'll get your account up and running in few minutes.

We only have US servers at this point, but we're expanding in Europe and Asia in the next few months. There are no speed limits and no transfer limits.

Thank you!

<comment><USER8> Chrome says: "The site's security certificate is not trusted!" Fix that ASAP.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!

I ran into the same problem when I used a GandiSSL certificate (Firefox complained, but not Chrome). I'm now using a PositiveSSL certificate.

Are you running the latest version of Chrome by any chance?

<comment><AUTHOR> We are almost done fixing the SSL problem. Bear in mind that it does not affect the security of your VPN connection. Thank you for pointing it out!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think some of these download sites will pay you to get their traffic back. Several lose users due to content sites blocking users. Either that or they can push your app to their users and you do not have to share revenue since users need your app. Great potential, IMHO.

<comment><AUTHOR> Are you talking about Hulu / Pandora / Last.fm etc?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> 15 accounts left :)

</comment><comment><USER9> Love the domain name. Like the site's visual style.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you :)

Greek mythology FTW!</comment></comment>