Ask HN: What is the best "dumb" phone? - <AUTHOR> Due to privacy and time management concerns, I have decided to take the jump and get rid of my smart phone. Unsurprisingly, there are very few of resources online about which dumb phones are the best. Those of you who use a non-smart phones, which model is it and how do you like it? <comment><USER2> You will be in a tough spot if you're in the USA. All the nice Nokias and decent low-tech phones are rapidly becoming useless as carriers phase out 2g (and even 3g) coverage to free up bands for LTE and now 5g.

If your "dumbphone" doesn't support VoLTE you'll be frustrated with dropped calls and spotty service everywhere. I know this from experience.

I settled on T-Mobile's only "dumbphone" \- the Alcatel GoFlip [1]. It supports LTE, the battery lasts for days and it even has a rudimentary IMAP and CalDAV client.

I tried turning my smartphone into a "dumbphone" and using it less, but I honestly lacked the self-control to put the stupid thing down. Having a kid made me realize how many moments I was pissing away just scrolling.

These things are designed to be addictive, and some people (like myself) can't compete with the entire teams of "engagement engineers" many tech companies employ to exploit your dopamine-reward cycles.

I had forgotten what it was like to be alone with my thoughts. I feel as though I am rediscovering a part of my brain that was suppressed by having a boredom-prevention device at my fingertips all these years. Also other humans now look like phone-zombies everywhere I look. It's kind of dystopian honestly.

[1] [https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-go- flip/](https://us.alcatelmobile.com/alcatel-go-flip/)

<comment><USER3> > I tried turning my smartphone into a "dumbphone" and using it less, but I > honestly lacked the self-control to put the stupid thing down

Did you remove the browsers and app store as well? I got rid of everything except for phone/texting, Slack (for work), and non-bingy convenience apps like Maps/Yelp/etc. On Android, it can be done with the adb shell without rooting, even the 'uninstallable' apps like Google search and the Samsung browser. Not sure about Apple.

I tried this before without getting rid of the Play Store and found that I would just cheat and download FF Focus when I felt like binging and then deleting it again when I was done. Now if I think I need a new app, I actually have to go on my laptop, download the apk, and move it to my phone to install it. It's not foolproof but it's enough extra steps to where I don't act on it on impulse.

It's worked really well and I don't binge like I used to . I still have some compulsive phone-checking habits but it's way less time consuming than compulsive-random-article-reading/scrolling. And I also get to keep the nicer benefits like the good camera and the large screen for when I need a GPS.

<comment><USER4> > Did you remove the browsers and app store as well?

It's possible with adb or root, but buy a $500-$800 device for removing basic apps? Failed logic IMHO.

> Not sure about Apple.

You can't.

<comment><USER5> You can get a decent smartphone for under 200$.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Nothing compares to the Punkt MP01 and MP02 IMO. I've had the MP01 for years and it's fantastic, the only issue has been with service and I imagine that would be resolved with the MP02 and 4g. [https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile- phone/](https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/)

There's also the Lightphone and forthcoming Lightphone II.

That being said, these won't really address privacy concerns per se. They don't support signal or other encrypted messaging (the lightphone II may in the future???). So the only way they would be more 'private' would be due to the fact that you'll use your phone for less and in so doing, share less data. Your texts and calls will still be pretty visible if that's a concern.

<comment><USER7> And it runs Android. What a bummer. Otherwise this phone looks perfect

<comment><USER8> Check this thread out that explains Google really has no control over the device: [https://twitter.com/punkt/status/1103276818340212737](https://twitter.com/punkt/status/1103276818340212737)

<comment><USER9> Just an aside, but that's a concerningly long thread. Responses like these are kind of important enough that they shouldn't be easily lost or hardly seen (especially since it's a reply to someone). Case in point: the way I found this thread since you linked to it, but I could be wrong and it might've been said somewhere in their website

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Ultraorthodox Jews buy dumbphones only because of religious considerations. These are known as Kosher phones. Here is a shop that sells them [https://www.zipy.co.il/s/אליאקספרס/-/-/טלפון/?aspect=:::2000...](https://www.zipy.co.il/s/אליאקספרס/-/-/טלפון/?aspect=:::200000563:200000563_200005437:Not+Touch+Screen/&gclid=Cj0KCQjwg73kBRDVARIsAF- kEH- CCwlrFTBvvW3jpvwk6FdC3WAj0RfzSwDxjKpQ9EXAb6-1IqKNYpYaAqteEALw_wcB#coil&data1=PhoneHe&data2=HE_PHO)

<comment><USER11> What exactly is the nature of those religious considerations?

Is it just that you can use a dumb phone on friday night without violating the sabbath (can you?)?

Is there a religious doctrine that explicitly prohibits general purpose computing devices in the home?

<comment><USER12> Phones stripped of anything that could be corrupting. Browsers, etc;

More information here: [https://www.quora.com/What-are-Kosher-cell- phones](https://www.quora.com/What-are-Kosher-cell-phones)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Dumbphones effectively no longer exist.

Anything with LTE (aside from iDevices) seems to run a Linux kernel with a stripped down Android or FirefoxOS on top. They have simplified UIs if that's what you're looking for, but they also have security holes out the wazoo (you can frequently get a root adb shell via usb with a stock config), and will never see updates.

To top that off, the available "dumb" phones with LTE often don't support US LTE bands. ( _glares at useless nokis 8810 4g_ )

You might get away with a pre-LTE device that's a legit dumbphone, but those networks are rapidly dying. :-(

<comment><USER14> > _Dumbphones effectively no longer exist. Anything with LTE (aside from > iDevices) seems to run a Linux kernel with a stripped down Android or > FirefoxOS on top. They have simplified UIs if that 's what you're looking > for, but they also have security holes out the wazoo (you can frequently get > a root adb shell via usb with a stock config), and will never see updates._

This has been a concern of mine, and why instead I've moved to simply turning off my wifi and cell service when not using them.

I installed "HereWeGO", a GPS app with great support for offline maps. Between that, podcasts, and music I can go quite long without using any data.

(Or as a middle ground I drop down to wifi with DND on, and check for incoming messages every once in a while)

<comment><USER15> Check out OsmAnd. It uses OpenStreetMaps data and all the map data is stored offline. OSM has great footpaths in my experience and it does turn by turn navigation and all that fun stuff to.

<comment><USER14> Thanks for the suggestion, I like that it's open source.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> IMO a dumb phone is usually not what you want, unless you care about battery life that much. Most dumb phones are worse for privacy than a properly configured iDevice without location services and all those other gimmicks you don't probably want. They're not encrypted, easier to hack after being stolen and you're forced into normal calls and sms messages which are notoriously insecure. You'd be better off with an iPhone and iMessage/Signal or even Matrix on your own home server if you care that much. That setup gives you much, much more privacy than anything else could.

</comment><comment><USER17> Consider taking this a step further and trying no phone at all. But instead of doing something extreme like dumping your smartphone, just turn your current phone off unless you're OK with being reached and at home or at work. Anything in between, the phone stays off.

This makes your smartphone a de facto land line for all practical intents, and you get to keep the potential to make exceptions and use it for e.g. GPS and maps or a restaurant lookup when you need to.

<comment><USER18> Another possibility to consider is carrying a pager. That way you'll at least know when you've got a call or a voice mail, and then you can turn your phone on temporarily to call back or check your voice mail, instead of having to periodically turn on your phone to check for missed calls.

<comment><USER19> Then you can also just go into Airplane mode. But that takes discipline.

Much more liberating is, to have a smartphone where you can put out the batterie ... then it is off. And since putting it back together takes time, the temptation to just check something is way less.

<comment><USER14> I just wish there was a better middle ground. iOS's DND is great in letting me whitelist contacts who can punch through, but that only applies to calls and texts, not signal :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I have been buying dumb phones from china for a few months (mostly using ebay and banggood.com) and since most cost between $15-$35, I've bought six and plan to buy a few more. I might throw up a Medium blog reviewing them because they are hilarious and sometimes really innovative.

My favorites have been:

\- Fidget Spinner Phone [0] | It's a fidget spinner and basically a classic Nokia clone with video, mp3, and bluetooth. It is comfy to carry in the pocket, has dual SIMs and SD card storage. Also an FM radio (that doesn't use hadphones as an antenna). The best part is that is has "HORSE RACE LIGHTS" that run to the beat so you can fidget spin to the radio.

\- Super Tiny Phone [2] | Can be a bluetooth earpiece, is super tiny, and has a voice changer option that is just hilarious. Call with autotune! Also it's clearly made for crime, but I like to call my mom as a robot.

\- Pen Phone [3] | It's a pen!

[0] [https://www.banggood.com/Servo-S08-1-3-300mAh-Christmas- Gift...](https://www.banggood.com/Servo-S08-1-3-300mAh-Christmas-Gift- Bluetooth-Dual-SIM-Fidget-Spinner-Finger-Gyro-Reduce-Stress- Phone-p-1216799.html)

[1] [https://www.banggood.com/V2-0_66-OLED-260mAh-Smallest- Blueto...](https://www.banggood.com/V2-0_66-OLED-260mAh-Smallest-Bluetooth- Dialer-BT-Music-Voice-Changer-Single-SIM-Mini-Card-Phone-p-1295837.html)

[2] [https://www.banggood.com/SERVO-K07-0_96inch-300mAh- bluetooth...](https://www.banggood.com/SERVO-K07-0_96inch-300mAh-bluetooth- Dialer-Recording-Pen-Handwriting-Pen-Flashlight-Camera-Dual-SIM-Mini-Card- phone-p-1417825.html)

</comment><comment><USER21> Punkt MP01 [https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp01-mobile- phone/](https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp01-mobile-phone/)

Punkt MP02 [https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile- phone/](https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/)

Light Phone [https://www.thelightphone.com](https://www.thelightphone.com)

Light Phone 2 [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light- phone-2](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2)

Nokia 3310 [https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-3310](https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-3310)

<comment><USER22> I considered going retro and getting a Nokia 3310, but 2G only was the show stopper.

<comment><USER23> They have a 3G model, I'm using right now! They also have a 4G 8110 "Bananaphone" that runs KaiOS, a sort of 'inbetween' smart-and-dumb phone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I was looking into this exact problem last year. I couldn't find a reasonable solution, so I had to take extraordinary steps instead -- I'm building my own phone.

There is literally no phone on the market (that I can find) that is acceptable to me anymore.

<comment><USER25> > I'm building my own phone.

Can you elaborate? This sounds pretty interesting.

<comment><USER24> It's essentially simple. What I have breadboarded and working right now is based on a Raspberry Pi (although I won't be using the Pi in the end, as it's too bulky -- I'll be using the functional equivalent on a board I'm designing). I'm using a 4G module to provide the cell functionality (you communicate with it much like with a modem) and a 4" LCD touch panel for the display. It is running Linux as the OS, with some custom code for things like the phone dialer, etc. It also has the other usual features like WiFi, Bluetooth, etc.

It's really nothing more than a small Linux computer with a cell phone module attached. That was one of my design goals -- I wanted a real OS rather than something like Android. The only thing that I'm not entirely happy with at the moment is power draw, but I can greatly reduce that with a bit more work.

<comment><USER26> Whose 4G modem did you go with?

<comment><USER24> I'm using a Quectel EC25-E 4G/LTE.

<comment><USER26> Interesting part! Looks like Mini PCI-E is the common formfactor, but some come on a little USB dongle. Is that the version you're using?

Will it do voice/SMS? I haven't found any indicators either way.

<comment><USER24> I'm using the Mini PCI for development, but I really need something that is a bit smaller for the final product. I haven't yet determined if this means that I'll need to use a different chipset.

> Will it do voice/SMS?

Yes, it does.

<comment><USER26> Cool thanks! It's exciting to run into an inexpensive LTE modem that can come in an easy to use package to use for stuff like this.

If you get to a point where you've learned some interesting things and generated documentation/video/etc send me a note on Twitter (@ borgel). Might make a good Hackaday writeup!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> In my mind, the best "dumb" phone is something like the iPhone SE.

Aside from the issue of limited options, traditional dumb phones contain junk like seriously insecure baseband processors, shadow SMS commands, carrier bloatware that does god knows what, BREW, and J2ME. They're often slow and cheaply-made.

If you're concerned about time management, then you have a few options:

\- Improve your self-discipline and impulse control, eliminate FOMO. This will pay dividends in your life.

\- Uninstall any app you absolutely do not require. In the latest versions of iOS you can uninstall many of the apps the device comes with.

\- Configure Screen Time(tm) and Downtime(tm) under Settings->Screen Time.

\- Configure Restrictions under the Settings app. Make them as draconian as you want and set up a complicated passcode.

The problem isn't the phone, it's you.

<comment><USER28> I use a "dumb" iphone SE as well, heavy screen time restrictions and very limited apps. Its great because I get to keep Uber and Venmo and Maps so I still have full functionality if I need it.

I disagree though when you say the problem isn't the phone and to improve self-discipline. If you have a cocaine addiction, and bag of cocaine in your pocket, the problem isn't your self-discipline. It's that you have a bag of cocaine in your pocket.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> [https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/)

This might count as a dumb phone for your intended purposes, given how it separates the baseband from the CPU and has killswitches.

<comment><USER30> Not yet released, unfortunately.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Oh great question! I have tried asking almost the same thing here[1] with no luck. 8 upvotes, 0 replies. Very curious to see if this thread will get any traction.

Personally, I was eyeing Nokia 3310 (relaunched version)[2].

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15261955](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15261955)

[2] [https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-3310](https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-3310)

<comment><USER31> I bought the 3G version. It was bad. Really bad. I think we've collectivley forgot how much of a UI bump the iPhone was.

I ended up never using it because there wasn't any way of of getting my contacts from my iPhone to it and I'm not spending several hours keying in my contacts.

<comment><USER7> UX/UI is not much of a concern for me, my personal usage intention is only for occasional texts and calls (mostly for 2FA, personal projects). I was actually looking for a "brick" of a phone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Not strictly a dumbphone, but KaiOS phones ([https://www.kaiostech.com/](https://www.kaiostech.com/)) are sort of smart- ish. They're forked from FxOS, are easily hackable, are compatible with modern telephony standards (so the death of 2G won't kill them), and come from multiple suppliers.

They hit the "just enough" functionality for me: phone calls, access to smart- ish messaging, a music player, and the ability to act as a hotspot for a more dedicated device.

I haven't got one myself (there's a particular model I was waiting on 6 months ago when I last sniffed around), but I intend to this year.

</comment><comment><USER33> I used a Motorola FONE for a few years. E-ink display, the most basic basics (single-case text messages, twelve characters at a time). Pretty good battery life, nice form factor. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Fone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Fone)

<comment><USER34> I did too! I loved the e-ink, but battery life was surprisingly bad considering the premise. I still loved the simplicity and durability.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I have an antique samsung flip-phone from sometime in the 2006-08 years. My carrier is T-mobile.

I had one that I used until it was really dying a couple years ago (growing blob of dead pixels in the middle of the screen, declining battery life), which I commented on during a visit home, to which my mom replied, "wait! i have the exact same phone in a drawer somewhere" ... so now i'm still using it, just, the one that she held onto for some reason.

The comments about dropped calls are true -- my phone has gotten progressively worse at being a phone in the last couple years. I wasn't sure whether it was hardware degradation or what, but I trust folks on this thread are more knowledgeable than I am and are correct that it's due to networks being phased out. To be honest I have no idea which 'G' my phone uses.

Pros: \- battery lasts for most of a week between charges \- is not distracting at all \- I don't feel bad when I drop it \- the alarm-clock feature works \- most people are very kind about giving me directions if i get lost and ask them for help, after they hesitate and say "... can't you look it up on your phone?"

Cons: \- not all text messages reach me \- I have to manually delete texts as the phone only wants to store 30 texts at a time. \- some phone conversations include redialing a few times \- I don't have a camera in my pocket \- I don't have a GPS in my pocket \- My current employer had to buy me a cheap (no sim card / no linked google account) smartphone anyhow for 2FA apps! \- distraction is more of a general habit -- i still waste plenty of my own time browsing the internet on a laptop.

</comment><comment><USER4> I bought Alcatel Go Flip for $25, works fine. If you need to read web from 2.8" display via 4G or Wifi one-two times per year, this is good choice.

<comment><USER36> That looks nice, to bad it's KaiOS... Well no, to bad Google had to go mess with KaiOS. I'm really annoyed that Google Assistant got put into KaiOS.

<comment><USER4> KaiOS 1.0 was released _before_ Google invested their money, no preinstalled google software on this phone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I own a YotaPhone 2 since a little more than a year now, and I am very satisfied with it.

It's a dual screen from 2015 made in Russia: it has an e-ink screen on the back that can display both dedicated widgets and the android OS, like the normal screen.

The OS (Android 4 up to 6) has been adapted for the screen and special care has been taken to make the system consume as few energy as possible if configured so. Think of it as the phone you dumb down when you go on a week- long trek in the Siberian Taiga.

I love it because of the extreme readability of the screen under full sunlight. I don't need to find a shadow or make some with my hands in order to select a song in a playlist, check my position on a map or reply to a text while walking.

There are also some cool features, like mirroring the camera's view on the back screen so that people who are photographed can have a preview of the final result.

The phone can also flash your contact info on the e-ink screen before shutting down (since it's e-ink, the image gets persisted even though the battery is flat), just in case some good samaritan finds your phone.

And now that the YotaPhone 3 is out, you can find it for 150$.

</comment><comment><USER38> Not a dumb phone, but I would recommend the Unihertz Atom[1]. It packs Android into the same form factor as a flip phone. The advantage is that it supports most carrier bands, including Verizon, and modern standards like VoLTE, Wifi calling (dumb phones are generally carrier specific and rely on 2G/CDMA bands for calling).

The great thing about this form factor is that browsing and extended typing are very difficult, so you end up using your phone to get notified and for utilities like navigation, music playing.

Privacy-wise it does not solve your concern because it runs Android and it does not track the latest security updates as well as the Google branded phones.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Unihertz-Smallest-Smartphone- Android-...](https://www.amazon.com/Unihertz-Smallest-Smartphone-Android- Unlocked/dp/B07KP8J8YN/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#customerReviews)

</comment><comment><USER39> I haven't used it but the "new" (remake) of the Nokia 8110 seems to fit your requirements [1].

[1] [https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/24/nokia-8110-4g/](https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/24/nokia-8110-4g/)

<comment><USER40> I've been using the new 8110 for nearly a year and it's exactly what I was looking for. Battery lasts for about a week, no ridiculous restrictions on texts or contact name length, and it can even create a wifi hotspot. It's the perfect balance of smart and dumb, IMO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> If you care about privacy and have about $100 + 4 hours you can get a Galaxy S5 running LineageOs without GApps (use F-Droid store) .

Almost completely OSS besides a few manufacturer blobs you can't really work around.

I have a "normal" Android phone I use for work but my S5 is my daily driver for everything else. Works great, hardest part is setting up stuff to replace FAANG.

I use ProtonMail, Open Camera, Matrix/Riot for family chat.

Haven't found a good calendar yet but overall way more usable than a dumbphone and privacy concious

There's some "nicer" options like One plus for LineageOs but you will probably find the S5 fairly snappy since its based on Android 8.0 . IMO the last few versions of Android make a much larger performance difference than a few CPU generations

<comment><USER4> LineageOS still use Google services for DNS and connectivity checks. I'd be non surprised if this number will be much more. Also, every third-party app can easily track you and steal data, check the news.

<comment><USER41> You may be right about connectivity checks although I thought they recently removed Google from those.

Lineage has built on top of Android permission system to prevent most apps from stealing data (Android location permission is probably the most notorious). If you have a rooted device with lineage you can also run XPeivacyLua which fakes out any data that apps "require" to install

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I've used a Nokia 208.1 for 5 years, it's not very big, it has not features worth mentioning, it lasts for ages (usually at least 1 weak depending on usage)... The interface is not horrible to use and doesn't get in the way - which is all I really care about with this kinda phone (cheaper dumb phones will really piss you off getting in the way).

RE privacy, phones aren't private, not even dumb phones, use a dumb phone for privacy in terms of doing less on it (i.e internet), cell networks voice calls are wide open of course. My main reason is lack of distraction though.

RE network compat: I've taken this phone to China, Thailand, Laos, Mexico, France, Germany - it always worked - Never been to US though.

</comment><comment><USER43> I got the cheapest phone available at MediaMarkt (German electronics store).

It's a SwissOne (don't know which model exactly) for about 30€. The battery life is great (runs more than a week) and it even has dual SIM support.

Interestingly, I could not find (in that shop) any phone without a color screen and camera. Really, I just want a phone for calls and SMS.

The one downside of that phone is that the audio volume on calls is really low, even when set to the maximum. That makes it difficult to have conversations on busy streets. In the future, I would pick one of those phones targeting senior citizens (with the huge buttons).

<comment><USER44> I think you're talking about Swisstone SX 567 [https://www.amazon.de/swisstone-DUAL-SIM-Mobiltelefon- Strahl...](https://www.amazon.de/swisstone-DUAL-SIM-Mobiltelefon-Strahlwasser- resistent- rot/dp/B015CGWP90/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1552938621&sr=8-1&keywords=swisstone+567)

<comment><USER43> It looks different, but that's probably close enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'm using the new nokia 8810. The keyboard is annoying, but otherwise with this phone you have a hotspot turned phone in a classic shape with you. KaiOS isn't too bad either (no google stuff on my phone too).

<comment><USER46> woohoo, somehow I managed to miss this existing. I had an original 8110 back in the day and every now and then since I've daydreamed about just how cool it would be to have that same form factor with modern internals. It's real!

Yeah, I might just have to pick one of those up. :) What do you object to about the keyboard? And is it squishy rubber like the original 8110 or something harder?

<comment><USER45> It's definitely hard, with something squishier underneath.

Maybe I have a manufacturing one-off, but for me, the keys tend to trigger multiple times when I press them. I can hardly enter an entire phone number without accidentally double-hitting at least one of the numbers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I'm a huge fan the The Light phone if you are trying to embrace minimalism. The second version is adding some features that hit the balance better for people who want to use their phone more consciously but still need to use an Uber every once in a while. But the first version is still for sale at Macy's I think.

[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light- phone-2](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2)

It's not as cheap as most "dumb" phones (~$300), but I for me its exactly what I wanted to reclaim my attention.

</comment><comment><USER48> My suggestion is for a Blackberry Q10. It has 4G (so it'll last a long time), swappable batteries (very cheap), a great UI, useful functionality (calendar, notes), and a completely worthless app store.

<comment> frosted-flakes I second this suggestion. Or the newer BlackBerry Classic (late 2014), which is almost identical except for the larger, non-removable battery and the addition of a thumb track pad and call/menu/back/hang up buttons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Being frivolous, not answering the question, but for my money, the best dumb phone is the analog one we used to have, plugged into a socket in the wall.

It was often noisy, sound was crummy, it was unwieldy, and it cost a small fortune to run, but it was without perceptible delay, it was fully duplex, and it far better approximated real face to face conversation than the weird false starts and constant stuttering interrupts we have learned to take for granted these days.

Also, you could walk out the door and ignore it.

<comment><USER50> Without some means of call-screening, telemarketing is making this all but untenable in the US.

Oterwise, agreed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> have you considered going phoneless?

The perspective it will give you on modern life will likely make you want to stay phoneless.

Remember when everyone smoked? I mean everyone. The experience of being phoneless today reminds me of what it was like to be a non smoker 25 years ago. Nauseating.

<comment><USER30> I've considered that, but times have changed and unlike 25 years ago, there aren't payphones dotting the urban landscape, and people make plans expecting to be able to contact you when you're already out in the world and away from your computer. For the once or twice a month that I need a phone, it's a necessary evil.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> I'm in Tokyo for work and it is surprising how many flip phones there still are here. Not sure if they work in the US but might be worth looking into shipping from Japan.

</comment><comment><USER53> I've been using the same Nokia 301 since 2013, and I've been content with it, but it's not sold any more so I don't know how much it's worth recommending it. Some notable problems I've had—and there might be similar problems with other non-smart-phones, which is why I think it's worth mentioning them—are:

· It has some size limit (I'm not sure what) on the attachments it can feasibly receive from other phones, and the default photo size for iPhones is larger than that, which means if a family member texts me a photo, I often can't download it. This isn't a big problem for me, because I tell them to email me instead, but it's still present.

· It lacks many newer emoji characters, which is only a problem if I'm texting people who use a lot of emoji, in which case their messages will have a bunch of mysterious blank boxes at the end.

· It has some kind of problem validating newer SSL certs, so the handful of services that do talk to the internet are at this point broken. I don't use any of them, so it's not a problem for me, but if I did, I'd have been out of luck.

I should also add that dumbphones are a real mixed bag when it comes to security. If I wanted to communicate with someone without eavesdropping, then I'm out of luck with a dumbphone: everything is just not-particularly-secure texting and calling. In my own case, I simply don't think of my phone as being a trusted device: that's what my laptop is for. However, if you really want to be security-conscious with your phone, I think the right thing might be to get an Android phone, install LineageOS on it, don't install any of the Google services, and be very limited in what apps you add.

</comment><comment><USER54> You might consider a WiPhone a few months from now once we're shipping them: (project preview link) [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/338898127?re...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103809433/338898127?ref=761478&token=f27f373c)

It's intended to be hackable. The base phone is pure WiFi, but there will probably be an LTE add-on.

<comment><USER55> I'd be hugely interested in this phone if only it had some form of cell connectivity; even 2G would suffice for my purposes. While we wait for cheaper 4G modems, why not a pluggable SIM800 (cost: a few bucks) module for the rest of us?

<comment><USER54> The current plan is to ship the basic model first, then add things like modems if the reception supports the development effort.

So far it looks like most people want 4G, even though it's quite expensive to add. I think too many marketing dollars have been spent convincing consumers that's what they need, so we may end up doing 4G before others. But you're right, 2G (or 3G) would both be cheaper and probably all you need for a dumb phone.

The nice thing, though, is unlike most phones it should be pretty easy for anyone with electronics skills to make a daughterboard that expands the phone hardware capabilities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> A discussion worth mentioning: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16912679](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16912679)

Of the blogpost on how to make a __dumber phone __[https://nomasters.io/posts/dumber- phone/](https://nomasters.io/posts/dumber-phone/)

</comment><comment><USER57> I'm in Australia, so if you're not then we might have a completely different range to choose from. (Hopefully your dumbphone market is better than ours!) But for what it's worth:

\- My previous phone was a Nokia 3310. It was terrible, but that was partly because I (presumably) got a dud unit -- the sound output was intermittently (but frequently) badly garbled. Setting that aside, I would still not recommend it. When it ran out of memory it had the delightful habit of allowing me to obliviously (and laboriously) type out a long text message and hit send, only then notifying me that was too full to do that, and dumping me back to the menu (or a newly-blank message window, I forget) with the message lost. The interface was generally a bit annoying, and the retro styling was just a gimmick -- I don't think it had much in common with the original aside from being a dumbphone. From memory the battery life was pretty good though.

\- My current phone is a Nokia 8110, aka the bananaphone. (And no, I really didn't want to get another Nokia, but there were very few alternatives and the ones I wanted to try had too many worrying reviews.) It's been fine so far. It's pretty big, but fits comfortably in my pocket. It's not a flip phone, and the screen is always visible (so you can check the time just by tapping the power button on the side), but it has a cover that slides back to reveal the keypad. I haven't used it for much, just very occasional calls and texts, but I haven't had any serious annoyances yet. It runs KaiOS, which is significantly less annoying than the 3310 firmware (and probably makes using the 8110 as a semi-smart phone feasible -- the 8110 has Wi-Fi, which worked fine when I tested it), though it does take a frustratingly long time to start up. Battery life seems good, though I haven't tested it aside from leaving it on standby for longish periods.

</comment><comment><USER58> I have the original Nokia 3310, which is not being used right now. Daily driver is the reissue 3310 that came out a couple years ago. It's still a little too "modern" for my tastes but something I can live with. The great thing is that the battery lasts forever. Probably close to a few weeks. Well, I don't use it at all, so there's that.

<comment><USER59> I used my 1st gen 3310 daily for 13 years. Eventually the antenna died and it turned out to be impossible to find reliable batteries.

Mom, on the phone: "I can't HEAR you again! Go and GET yourself a DECENT phone! I am going to BUY you one myself! ..." After this, my phone almost always died.

An excellent phone, though. Saved me from smartphones (I've never owned one). It also served well as a bottle opener when I was a student.

<comment><USER60> Damn how did I not know about using the 3310 as a bottle opener (being a 20-something when I had one). Anyway here is the proof:

[https://metro.co.uk/2015/04/18/this-is-how-you-use-your- old-...](https://metro.co.uk/2015/04/18/this-is-how-you-use-your-old- nokia-3310-as-a-bottle-opener-5155965/)

<comment><USER59> Haha, I can't believe there actually is a video for this. I'm from Estonia and it seemed like a a standard skill among 18+ year olds here in the early 2000s. You had to try beer, and you had to try opening the bottle with a 3310.

I suppose I should say "timeless Finnish design" now. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Cant you just turn off mobile data and wifi on the phone? If it can't connect to the internet, it can't violate any privacy.

<comment><USER62> I might increase the battery life by some, but I guess you still need to bring your charger for a weekend trip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> I have greatly enjoyed my Nokia 3310 3g. I have had intermittent sergice outages, but for the most part it works well. I live in a major metropolitan area though... so if you are more rural you may not have the same experience. I only use it for the following: calls, alarm clock, and the occasional text (but I hate it when people text me and usually just call them back - yes, I know it is frowned upon). While an LTE version of the 3310 exists in europe, I do not believe it opperates on American bands. Which is a bummer and I really wish they would release it here. Having buttons again is so much better than the touch screen plague that has grabbed everyone.

If the WiPhone ([http://a.wiphone.io/](http://a.wiphone.io/)) manages to see market, I may move in that direction as I am almost never outside of wifi (plus the promise of writing apps in either MicroPython or Wiring or the like sounds great).

</comment><comment><USER64> Related question – Is it possible to have two phones with the same phone number? Maybe an iPhone and a flip phone, for example.

<comment><USER65> Number sharing is a thing. That's how Apple Watch operates, sharing the # with its host iPhone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> Why not like a cheap ($40) BLU phone and just not use the "smart" features?

[https://www.amazon.com/BLU-Advance-Unlocked-Smartphone- Black...](https://www.amazon.com/BLU-Advance-Unlocked-Smartphone- Black/dp/B072N6BD9V/)

</comment><comment><USER67> I still primarily use an iPhone SE, but every couple of months I'll "disconnect" by using a dumbphone for a week or two at a time. I use the Nokia 106: [https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-106/](https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-106/)

I like it a lot. It's cheap, simple, and has great battery life; I charge it perhaps once during the week or so I'm using it. I paid £18 for mine unlocked.

My favourite antifeature is that _it has no camera_. Most dumbphones have a camera in them that's so poor it's not worth having. This one doesn't bother with one at all, which means there's no camera option cluttering up the menus.

</comment><comment><USER68> I can't say there's a "best" since we're talking about dumb phones, but this is one that I bought a few years back and it works great. You'll need a pay- as-you-go plan, but other than that, it's been smooth sailing.

[https://www.amazon.com/BLU-GSM-Unlocked-Dual- Black/dp/B07MZD...](https://www.amazon.com/BLU-GSM-Unlocked-Dual- Black/dp/B07MZDNBDJ/ref=pd_sim_107_5/140-3315598-1741854?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07MZDNBDJ&pd_rd_r=5f45e91f-49c6-11e9-a75b-d90d22588c43&pd_rd_w=aVPgx&pd_rd_wg=3nKs4&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=CJ6JSY813KMT2N2ZNFYY&psc=1&refRID=CJ6JSY813KMT2N2ZNFYY)

</comment><comment><USER69> I got multiple dumb phones. The new Nokia 3310 being my favorite. On top, it's dual SIM.

<comment><USER70> How does it compare to the original re battery life?

<comment><USER62> I also have a Nokia 3310. I guess I charge it every other 4-5 days.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Nokia (the new, not the old) makes a neat little phone that has good standby time. I still use my old one but stocked up on the news ones 'just in case', as long as my old one is still working I'll stick to it.

The 3310 is the new one.

</comment><comment><USER72> Anyone have suggestions for dumb phones that will work with Verizon? I'm still on a Samsung Intensity II from ~2011 because from what I can tell there aren't any non-flip-phone dumbphones that work with Verizon anymore.

<comment><USER73> They have quite a few options at [https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic- phones/](https://www.verizonwireless.com/basic-phones/)

I have used the Exalt and the Kyocera DuraXV. Both are great phones and even allow you to create hot spots with them.

<comment><USER72> Those are all flip phones though. I want something in the old candy bar style. I guess technically there is that Sonim phone, but it's ugly as sin.

<comment><USER74> Perhaps one of the other non-flip phones presented here may work in the "bring your own device" option presented on that Verizon Basic website.

<comment><USER72> The problem I've always found before when I look is Verizon uses different frequencies than most other carriers, so the phones tend to work on everything except Verizon

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> It's a dumb phone. Pretty much all you need to to be able to make calls and maybe send texts. Walk into a Target or whatever store sells flip phones, pay for the cheapest phone + prepaid plan there, walk out.

For what it's worth, your location metadata probably uniquely identifies you (nearest cell tower to work + home), and Target probably knows who you are just from their security cameras, so this still isn't paranoid enough if "state actors are interested in me personally" is in your threat model. The "correct" thing to do in this case is to leave your phone at home and/or at work.

</comment><comment><USER76> I used a Kyocera DuraXE for a bit while travelling. It's rugged, and supports LTE/tethering, but I abandoned that experiment due to how unpleasant I find T9 texting.

I was recently looking for a new phone for my father... he currently uses a Gingerbread-era LG slider phone with keyboard. He's _never_ connected it to data or wifi, only uses it for calls and texting. Doesn't look like there's much available to serve his uses anymore. Maybe a (significantly more expensive than his slider) BlackBerry KeyOne or Key2 which he can also leave disconnected from data.

<comment> frosted-flakes Look into the BlackBerry Classic, which was released in late 2014 or early 2015 and runs BB10. It's discontinued, but you should be able to find it on ebay for much cheaper than a new KeyOne/Key2 (which are quite large compared to the Classic). It has a great keyboard and all the built-in stuff works very well and is easy to use (SMS, phone, camera, calculator, calendar, notes, music player, maps, etc.). Battery life is pretty good too, or at least it was when new.

I used this phone until the end of 2017, at which point the outdated browser and dead app store (free apps only) started to seriously limit its functionality, but if you don't need those it would work just fine. I use a KeyOne now, but I miss the Classic's smaller form factor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> I've been using the LG Xpression C410 for years: [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRDCLIU](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRDCLIU)

But I'm not really sure what's out there now to compare it to. I never used anything else. This one deals with calls and texts fairly well and I charge it about twice a week with a low amount of texting and very few calls. I don't use it for anything else.

I also dropped it once from chest height and nothing bad came from it. It's built like a tank.

</comment><comment><USER78> Stupid question: would that really be better (from a privacy perspective) than a smartphone, without using the "smart" part of it? Arguably by using a dumb phone you would avoid sharing data with either Apple or Google, but you will still share everything (location, phone numbers, who you are calling, etc) with your telco company.

Calling/texting with a dumbphone might actually be worse, from a privacy perspective, than using something like Whatsapp (until Whatsapp was acquired by Facebook).

<comment><USER79> Battery life. Phone batteries used to last for two weeks or more with light usage.

Though to be fair to smartphones, my Samsung galaxy has an "ultra power saving" mode that puts the display into grayscale, uses a special app launcher and only allows access to a handful of applications. In that mode I can get about two weeks of battery life.

<comment><USER78> Battery life is a good point. I forgot that my good old Nokia used to last something like one month...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've been wondering if you could use a cellular Apple watch like a dumbphone, initially setting it up with a friend/family member's iPhone (restored to get a fresh account, swap SIM and set up watch, then restored back to their backup), and then only using time/alarms and phone. Anyone know if that's possible? Could you update the contacts via icloud.com? Install software updates without an iPhone or Mac/Windows?

</comment><comment><USER80> Using an LTE Apple Watch exclusively will address all time management concerns while still allowing you to do things like order an uber and stream music.

<comment><USER81> Is that even possible? I thought you had to have an iPhone to set the watch up?

<comment><USER34> I know enough people with an iPhone that if it's needed for _setup only_ , that'd be fine.

<comment><USER82> AFAIK, it will link their Apple ID with the watch, which means that if they uninstall an app, you might lose it, and etc. The LTE Apple Watch needs a minimum of an iPhone 6 or something to complete setup vs. the non-LTE that can be setup with a 5s.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> in the Netherlands I discovered a very cheap one from the mark Kazam, allowing 2 SIM (useful since I have 2), no memory but a microSD slot. I first used it without the microSD but then I wanted to have at least an acceptable ringtone so I installed the microSD... and I discovered that the phone (can) record all the calls I made on the microSD. That came very handy about once a year, I love the concept.

</comment><comment><USER84> I haven't used one myself, but perhaps The Light Phone would meet your needs? They recently launched an updated model - [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light- phone-2#/](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2#/)

Doesn't deliver until July 2019 though...

</comment><comment><USER85> This might be of interest to you: [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/privo- mobile](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/privo-mobile)

Looks like they are trying to make a dumb phone that has better UX like a smart phone.

<comment><USER86> What are the odds this project works? Just curious as making a functioning cellphone sounds difficult.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> What about an iPhone 3Gs? Its essentially locked out of the app store at this point.

</comment><comment><USER88> I use a Nokia 1280 (EU/Italy):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18255904#18262362](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18255904#18262362)

</comment><comment><USER89> I have the Nokia 3310 and like it. Aside from not being great at receiving multimedia texts, it works pretty well. Also it has Snake, but sadly not the original version.

<comment><USER62> I second this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> If it were me, I'd go with a pager. Probably too old school for what you're looking for but it's purely passive, from what I remember.

</comment><comment><USER44> I'm curious if anyone tried to hack Palm Mobile into some sort of semi- dumbphone by removing its OS and installing an open source mobile distro?

</comment><comment><USER91> My smart phone is 4 years old, and the battery now lasts 1-2 hours, effectively discouraging me from installing any heavy app. Problem solved.

</comment><comment><USER92> One to consider: [https://www.thelightphone.com/](https://www.thelightphone.com/)

</comment><comment><USER93> We use Samsung Gusto 3 phones. They are tiny and just work. Cost about $10 at the grocery store.

</comment><comment><USER94> I found an ericsson ga628 looking phone, maybe I should pimp it with a rpi zero

</comment><comment><USER95> The best dumb phone is a payphone.

<comment><USER90> Sadly, the Matrix has caught on and those are being removed. =[

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> Just glue your mobile to the wall in the hallway.

</comment><comment><USER97> Aliexpress is flooded with simple 2g phones that just do voice, sms, and address book.

Pick a few, and try. Some are like 50 bucks only.</comment>


Taligent's Guide to Designing Programs - <AUTHOR> https://root.cern.ch/TaligentDocs/TaligentOnline/DocumentRoot/1.0/Docs/books/WM/WM_3.html <comment><USER2> Though this guide seems to mainly be about C++, Taligent is the originator of the (in)famous java.util.Calendar class [1] [2].

[1] [http://www.icu- project.org/docs/papers/history_of_java_inter...](http://www.icu- project.org/docs/papers/history_of_java_internationalization.html)

[2] www.jroller.com/cpurdy/entry/the_seven_habits_of_highly

</comment><comment><USER3> About Taligent: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent)</comment>


Building Spam-Free Contact Forms Without Captchas - rebekah-aimee http://nfriedly.com/techblog/2009/11/how-to-build-a-spam-free-contact-forms-without-captchas/ <comment><AUTHOR> Though I know these tricks worked 10 years ago, I'd be surprised if spammers tools hadn't gotten smarter. As you can't live in a css/javascript free world anymore, I would assume the bots are loading in a browser, doing a document.ready, then going about there business, but I could be wrong.</comment>


BP finally stops oil spewing from Gulf gusher - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_gulf_oil_spill;_ylt=AnPKeJBcLNkoUZtliYKkmN6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNoNnYwZjVkBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNzE1L3VzX2d1bGZfb2lsX3NwaWxsBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDMgRwb3MDNwRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDYnBzYXlzbm9tb3Jl

<comment><USER2> Third paragraph:

> "Finally!" said Renee Brown, a school guidance counselor visiting Pensacola > Beach, Fla., from London, Ky. "Honestly, I'm surprised that they haven't > been able to do something sooner, though."

Seems like an odd choice for the first quote in the article. Shouldn't they have chosen someone obviously qualified to comment?

<comment><USER3> Most people think it's just a long pipe going down there, and you can put your thumb in it.

<comment><USER4> Most people think they should have this "cap" on stand-by on every drilling rig out there.

<comment><USER5> They do, in theory. The Blow-Out-Preventer, basically an automatic cap, it installed in-line on every well currently being drilled.

Yes, it failed but there is no guarantee that "this cap" will succeed in the case of another BOP failure.

<comment><USER6> I still think the industry should put together a consortium that develops and builds such equipment and keeps it ready to go in the event of deep-water well failures like this. Seems like a lot of trial and error and onsite improvisation and engineering were done after the disaster. If it had been done ahead of time, then we may well have gotten to this point perhaps weeks sooner. A lot of oil might not have been spilled.

<comment><USER7> If a private company had built such a cap and kept it on standby, they could have probably sold it to BP for over $20 billion.

<comment><USER8> I'm a liberal, but I really don't like reading or watching liberal biased news constantly. It's as uninteresting and un-though-provoking as watching conservative shows all day.

That said, Rachel Maddow compared this gulf oil spill to the gulf oil spill of 1979 by using news clips from then, and the sad part is, the new technology we used for this spill is the exact same technology they used back then. Check it out:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is not entirely true. The seal in place is considered temporary until a pressure test can be completed. This is expected to be completed within the next 48 hours. If that test is not successful, then this seal comes straight off and the leak resumes.

<comment><USER10> Not exactly. The new tight-fitting cap is there to stay, but they may re-open the valves which are presently preventing oil from escaping if the well is determined to be insufficiently sound. In that case, the new cap will still allow them to collect all the oil, preventing any from leaking. That may take a week or so until they can get more collection ships, though.

<comment><USER9> My bad; I had misread the other story. Thanks for the correction..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Well, obviously it sucks that it took so long, and so much damage has been done, but nonetheless... this is great news, if true. Let's just hope that this new cap holds up until the relief wells are finished and things are truly under control.

Wonder how long the cleanup process will take? Can something of this magnitude even ever be completely cleaned up?

<comment><USER12> "Can something of this magnitude even ever be completely cleaned up?" Likely no. Certainly improvements can and will be made, but there will be irreversible damage, at least on a human timescale.

<comment><USER13> Crude oil is a natural substance. It leaks out of the earth all over the place. This is obviously an extreme case, but I think that with time, the environment will absorb this and return to some sort of normalcy.

<comment><USER14> There is never going to be a return to normalcy for this area. It has already been under relentless pressure from human activities, to the point where we have a dead zone the size of Rhode Island floating around near this area already due to criminally irresponsible over-use of agricultural chemicals. Way too much pollution has already been coming out of Houston and New Orleans for a long time. BP wasn't satisfied dumping millions of gallons of oil into the water, they also felt it was necessary to dump hundreds of thousands of gallons of unnecessarily toxic dispersant chemicals into the water, mainly for cosmetic PR purposes. Louisiana's marshes are already in serious physical decline from the change in water flow and silt buildup caused by hydrologic engineering in the area.

As far as something being natural, that has little to do with it's ability to destroy ecosystems. Sure, many synthetic chemicals are worse, but don't we have plenty of examples of very harmful natural phenomena? Radiation is natural, for instance. Perhaps you'd like to absorb a couple thousand rems, and see if the naturalness makes a difference in your return to normalcy. Or drink a big glass of oil, why not! It's natural! Several thousand dolphins, sea turtles, jellyfish, fish, sting rays, eels and octopi surely gave that a try recently.

<comment><USER15> You are ranting and I honestly don't understand your need to compare an oil spill to a specific tragedy of radiation poisoning or an individual dying from exposure to oil. Oil spills are dangerous and hurt the environment greatly in the short term, but we are talking about a small region of the entire ocean that (while beautiful) doesn't sustain the large portion of the world's ocean.

Saying "never" and "always" is just a way to push propaganda unless it can be proven otherwise.

<comment><USER14> Ever so sorry, when someone says something insensitive, insulting and incorrect I guess a proper response could be characterized as a 'rant' as the amount of information you need to convey to give them half a clue is a lot.

The radiation example is related to the statement about oil being 'natural'. Again, radiation and cyanide are natural, but it's all a matter of concentration. Oil has overwhelmed this area and is killing massive amounts of sea life, regardless of it's fabulous property of 'naturalness'. So, while an x-ray might not hurt you, sticking your face into a bucket of plutonium might. A drop of oil may not kill you. YOUR ENTIRE BODY BEING COVERED IN OIL UNTIL YOU SUFFOCATE WHILE ALSO BEING POISONED BY HYDROCARBONS IS DIFFERENT. Do you agree?

By 'Never' I mean 'maybe sometime in the future, outside of a human time scale and definitely when none of us are alive'. The changes to the ecology of this area are irreversible.

It's not propaganda, the lying people on the other side of the issue who try to insist everything is OK because they have $$$$$ at stake are the ones feeding you propaganda. Thoughtful, intellectual honest men like Rush Limbaugh were the first to insist that this man-made disaster is a 'natural phenomenon'. It's absolutely ridiculous. To believe and repeat that ACTUAL propaganda, one must be uninformed and easily manipulated, or have something to gain from misleading people.

To me, killing one frog by accident with my lawnmower is upsetting. These people are killing millions of animals, then dumping more chemicals in the ocean for PR purposes. They WILL be killing people through their actions, if you're concerned at all about that. Of course, this is on top of a scene of fishing industry whose main plan is to go around dredging with heavy chains ont he ocean floor, or dragging 500 meter nets, keeping what they want, killing the rest and throwing it back. It's not even 'collateral damage', to these people, ocean life is as worthless as shit. Sorry, some of us disagree.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Except there are probably dozens of little leaks all over the pipes from the failure event. That's what they kept arguing why the couldn't just close the top, it would make all the little leaks into big leaks.

So basically they've just shut off the one that was getting the most attention.

Geez the amount of wildlife they have killed - no-one will go to prison and it's practically the crime of the century.

<comment><USER17> > Geez the amount of wildlife they have killed - no-one will go to prison and > it's practically the crime of the century.

The Iraq invasion by USA happened in this very century.

<comment><USER16> Very good point. I can't believe I've fallen for the lack of that in the news cycle.

Going to war is like a different, almost underground part of society now.

<comment><USER18> It's just hard to sustain public interest when it isn't getting particularly worse, isn't getting particularly better, isn't going away, and we are not in imminent danger. If we felt threatened and outraged like we did in past wars, people would be hanging on every word out of the news.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> One week after the moratorium on offshore oil drilling has been rejected. Coincidence?

I've heard the theory that with the relief well approach, BP would have been able to continue getting the oil. With the threat of the moratorium, the relief well would have been the only way to continue getting the oil.

Maybe it is too much paranoia, but ever since I heard that theory, I can't completely shake the feeling that there might have been something to it.

<comment><USER20> probably too much paranoia.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Let's look at the positive parts of this:

1\. All oil companies are going to upgrade their safety standards

2\. A lot of new knowledge on how to seal oil leaks has been brought into the world. This knowledge will have various applications, and if a bigger leak happens again, then there will be more preparation

</comment><comment><USER22> Anyone notice the BP or whoever spokespeople deliberately referring to it as "Hydrocarbon release" rather than "Oil volcano" or "oil spill" now? "uncontrolled hydrocarbon emission" and things like that..... that MUST be a deliberate PR move.

<comment><USER23> The terminology is more correct, even if it sounds more weasel-y. If they said "oil spill" then someone would be complaining about them being inaccurate and ignoring all the other hydrocarbons that come out of the well, like natural gas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> US was lucky that it was such a big spill.

~ 15.000 barrels per year spill in nigeria since 50 years. won't fix. (half of what deepwater spilled per day).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_the_Nig...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_the_Niger_Delta#Oil_spills)

</comment><comment><USER25> I find it all rather sad. BP has committed an appalling act of negligence however the parties operating the rig and the company that provided the Blow Out Preventer (Trans Ocean and Halliburton) still seem to be avoiding the worst of the flack. They are culpable too, yet the administration chooses to ignore it. This has been a marvellous political tool for them.

Wonder if Dow Chemical has fixed the issues in Bhopal yet?

</comment><comment><USER26> i'd like a 2nd opinion from a 3rd party, just to be sure.

<comment><USER27> yep ideally from another large firm with oil experience. such as Halliburton or Exxon. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Phew. Now I can go buy BP gas again.

</comment><comment><USER29> great news if the oil leak is finally stopped, however, i will really miss the quips from @bpglobalpr

<comment><USER30> Well, it's not as if the disaster is over.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Not before time.</comment>


Juniper hack has U.S. fearing foreign infiltration - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/18/politics/juniper-networks-us-government-security-hack/ <comment><USER2> Of course, CNN leaves out the fact that the NSA shares substantial blame for this by putting a back door into Dual_EC.

This is an incredibly poignant example of the inherent danger of any cryptographic back door. It's a real shame that the media is both too technically illiterate and too pro-government to explain that.

<comment><USER3> Can you explain how they are related?

My understanding of this is that malicious code was deliberately added to Juniper's software, not that it exploited some existing code that Juniper thought was safe. This could happen regardless of what kind of encryption is in use in the surrounding code/infrastructure.

If my understanding is correct, why is Dual_EC relevant?

edit: And a follow on question: If this back door only works by assuming Dual EC is backdoored, is that not incontrovertible proof that the NSA is behind the entire thing, which there is at least some doubt that they are? That, or someone else has found the hypothesized private key in Dual EC. Either scenario seems like far more significant news than this story already is.

<comment><USER2> Disclaimer: I am by no means a cryptography expert and my understanding of this is based on [1] and [2].

Basically, Juniper used Dual_EC, which they knew was backdoored. Because they knew it was backdoored, they replaced the NSA key with their own, which they thought made it "safe."

Now it turns out that a third actor might have somehow replaced the Juniper key with their own key.

The point is that by using a CSPRNG with a backdoor, even when they tried to close that backdoor, they still left a backdoor open. Dual_EC is relevant because if the USG had never promoted it there never would have been a backdoor to leave open. Another CSPRNG would have been harder to leave insecure.

> If this back door only works by assuming Dual EC is backdoored, is that not > incontrovertible proof that the NSA is behind the entire thing, which there > is at least some doubt that they are?

Not necessarily. As Juniper is supposedly not using the NSA codepoints, it could have been "any" actor which changed the back door, including but not only the NSA.

Personally, I don't think it is the NSA in this case. If it were, I don't think we'd be reading about it on CNN at all.

[1] [https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/12/19/juniper.html](https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/12/19/juniper.html)

[2] [https://kb.juniper.net/InfoCenter/index?page=content&id=KB28...](https://kb.juniper.net/InfoCenter/index?page=content&id=KB28205&pmv=print&actp=LIST)

<comment><USER4> It's even more complicated than that - Juniper used Dual EC, and changed the Dual EC parameters, but ultimately the output of that PRNG was being used to seed a different PRNG (probably for speed purposes).

From your 2nd link:

 _ScreenOS does make use of the Dual_EC_DRBG standard, but is designed to not use Dual_EC_DRBG as its primary random number generator. ScreenOS uses it in a way that should not be vulnerable to the possible issue that has been brought to light. Instead of using the NIST recommended curve points it uses self- generated basis points and then takes the output as an input to FIPS /ANSI X.9.31 PRNG, which is the random number generator used in ScreenOS cryptographic operations._

Because of this, it's not entirely clear at this point that an attack would have been feasible even for an actor that had the P and Q used for Dual EC here[1].

[1] [https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/67837170536721203...](https://twitter.com/pwnallthethings/status/678371705367212032)

<comment><USER5> However: even in this setting, all it takes is a single unauthorized call to Dual EC and an exfiltration of 240 bits to obtain the values used in all subsequent re-seeding of the ANSI generator. We already know there is unauthorized code in ScreenOS based on Juniper's admission. So the next step is to determine whether something like this has occurred.

<comment><USER4> If code was added to leak the state of the PRNG, then whether or not Dual EC is used becomes a non-issue. The person who created the backdoor could leak the state regardless of which PRNG was used.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Lazy reporting: "The U.S. officials said they are certain U.S. spy agencies themselves aren't behind the back door."

If you're not going to provide context or get a quote from a disinterested party, then just omit the US saying the US didn't do it.

<comment><USER7> It is guaranteed that they would say that regardless of the truth, so the quote source is irrelevant really.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> We clearly need to give up more privacy and add more fast-lane backdoors to protect against these attacks.

<comment><USER9> Indeed! The best thing to do would to be to ban encryption all together! /s

<comment><USER10> Relevant and from last night's Democratic Debate.

RADDATZ: You'll be happy. I'll let -- I'll let you talk then.

Secretary Clinton, I want to talk about a new terrorist tool used in the Paris attacks, encryption. FBI Director James Comey says terrorists can hold secret communications which law enforcement cannot get to, even with a court order.

You've talked a lot about bringing tech leaders and government officials together, but Apple CEO Tim Cook said removing encryption tools from our products altogether would only hurt law-abiding citizens who rely on us to protect their data. So would you force him to give law enforcement a key to encrypted technology by making it law?

CLINTON: I would not want to go to that point. I would hope that, given the extraordinary capacities that the tech community has and the legitimate needs and questions from law enforcement, that there could be a Manhattan-like project, something that would bring the government and the tech communities together to see they're not adversaries, they've got to be partners.

It doesn't do anybody any good if terrorists can move toward encrypted communication that no law enforcement agency can break into before or after. There must be some way. I don't know enough about the technology, Martha, to be able to say what it is, but I have a lot of confidence in our tech experts.

And maybe the back door is the wrong door, and I understand what Apple and others are saying about that. But I also understand, when a law enforcement official charged with the responsibility of preventing attacks -- to go back to our early questions, how do we prevent attacks -- well, if we can't know what someone is planning, we are going to have to rely on the neighbor or, you know, the member of the mosque or the teacher, somebody to see something.

CLINTON: I just think there's got to be a way, and I would hope that our tech companies would work with government to figure that out. Otherwise, law enforcement is blind -- blind before, blind during, and, unfortunately, in many instances, blind after.

So we always have to balance liberty and security, privacy and safety, but I know that law enforcement needs the tools to keep us safe. And that's what i hope, there can be some understanding and cooperation to achieve.

RADDATZ: And Governor O'Malley, where do you draw the line between national security and personal security?

O'MALLEY: I believe that we should never give up our privacy; never should give up our freedoms in exchange for a promise of security. We need to figure this out together. We need a collaborative approach. We need new leadership.

The way that things work in the modern era is actually to gather people around the table and figure these things out. The federal government should have to get warrants. That's not some sort of passe you know, antique sort of principle that safeguards our freedoms.

But at the same time with new technologies I believe that the people creating these projects -- I mean these products also have an obligation to come together with law enforcement to figure these things out; true to our American principles and values.

My friend Kashif, who is a doctor in Maryland; back to this issue of our danger as a democracy of turning against ourselves. He was putting his 10 and 12-year-old boys to bed the other night. And he is a proud American Muslim. And one of his little boys said to him, "Dad, what happens if Donald Trump wins and we have to move out of our homes?" These are very, very real issues. this is a clear and present danger in our politics within.

We need to speak to what unites us as a people; freedom of worship, freedom of religion, freedom of expression. And we should never be convinced to give up those freedoms in exchange for a promise of greater security; especially from someone as untried and as incompetent as Donald Trump.

RADDATZ: Thank you, Governor O'Malley.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- fix/wp/2015/12/19/3r...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- fix/wp/2015/12/19/3rd-democratic-debate-transcript-annotated-who-said-what- and-what-it-meant/)

<comment><USER11> Interesting. The "new terrorist tool used in the Paris attacks, encryption" is far from new, and that story has revolved around the Playstation network (which the media told us was used by the Paris terrorists, despite the originators of that rumor retracting their story about Jambon).

The "problem" here is not secure communication. It is media propaganda / information warfare. Facebook and Twitter being used to instill hate and spread conspiracies. It is all in the open: Facebook images stating that Israel is behind ISIS, or Twitter accounts that post nothing but Anwar al- Awlaki videos. Could you imagine that happening 10 years ago, on your own homepage, without being raided? If Twitter can block porn, surely they can block terrorist propaganda too. But the law enforcement probably want to use these for fishing. Instead Clinton wants to build another nuke.

> "Dad, what happens if Donald Trump wins and we have to move out of our > homes?"

These are propaganda tactics close to character assassination. In the next sentence he says that "freedom of expression" unites us, but when Trump uses this freedom of expression he is suddenly scaring Muslim kids. Very recognizable.

> especially from someone as untried and as incompetent as Donald Trump.

You just know that they made this a talking point, a hook. And O'Malley wrestled it in his answer, because that is what he prepared.

> where do you draw the line between national security and personal security?

Donald Trump is incompetent. Next question! Next!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Who are these "officials" and why are they anonymous here?

Anyway, what's most likely to have happened is that other nation-states discovered NSA's own backdoors and started using them. The NSA then freaked out and told Juniper it's ok to patch them now. The reason why I'm implying cooperation between Juniper and NSA is because Juniper keeps refusing to eliminate the _well known_ Dual_EC backdoor from their systems and are giving stupid reasons for keeping it.

<comment><USER13> Could there be a legal case involved here? I mean if I as a customer paid for a door-lock which was marketed as "secure" and you knowingly shipped me a door-lock which can be subverted by tools some particular burglars are known to have access to? That sounds quite malicious to say the least.

<comment><USER14> At least in the literal sense, that's what you are getting when you buy a door lock marked "secure".

I don't think a product like this has really been "secure" since the early 1800s or earlier.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Sure... "The U.S. officials said they are certain U.S. spy agencies themselves aren't behind the back door." because if they were they would immediately tell everyone. It's not like they have a political agenda to both deny involvement and blame foreign agencies... /s

Either way this will have a big economic impact for Juniper. In no way are they going to win the next big banking or government contracts.

<comment><USER16> > Either way this will have a big economic impact for Juniper. In no way are > they going to win the next big banking or government contracts.

If I were in a three-letter position at any big company, I'd choose Juniper over Cisco gear now. Juniper has proven they do code audits and throw such stuff out if they find it. Cisco, not so much.

<comment><USER17> I like the reassurance of Juniper doing code audits. If they do them regularly, though, why did it take them over three years to find this "unauthorized code"?

<comment><USER16> I can imagine that the software going into a typical router is as complex and huge as the kernel. I'd guess they do rolling audits because of the complexity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > Note that a skilled attacker would likely remove these entries from the log > file, thus effectively eliminating any reliable signature that the device > had been compromised

Sending logs off as they're written to a centralized logging server or a time- series database would have been useful in this context.

<comment><USER19> I would also assume you could do a blockchain-type log -- ie the hash of an entry includes the hash of the previous entry so that if one entry is removed, the whole thing is tamper-evident.

Of course, then you need to ensure the integrity of the latest hash (if you can change one log, you can change them all). If the centralized logging server(s) are protected with the same rooted ssh, then it's just an additional step for our sophisticated state-sponsored boogeyman.

<comment><USER20> just print the logs as they come in.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Why would anyone choose to use Dual_EC even with their own keys unless they are completely ignorant or coerced? It is especially galling for people who sell supposedly secure products. I can't imagine that any competent CTO/CSO would sign off on such a stupid choice.

</comment><comment><USER22> Does Juniper not have source control? Don't they know who inserted this code?

<comment><USER23> Lots of source control systems don't offer that level of verification. Even Git, with SHA-1 hashes everywhere, lets you claim to be anybody when you write a commit. The only thing you can verify the origin of in Git is the author of a tag signature, for tags that are signed with a PGP key.

<comment><USER24> "even git"?

I'm not sure git is the best example of a secure system. Commercial source control systems have more serious authentication.

<comment><USER25> Indeed. Serious players use Perforce and consider it to be worth every penny.

<comment><USER26> The perforce website just talks about git. Does the old perforce vcs thing still exist?

<comment><USER27> Yes. Their git stuff is a front-end so users can use git, which then funnels it to the back end. Works like Git-TFS or the built-in integration of Git into Visual Studio.

What used to be the central p4 server was renamed Helix, turned into a federated architecture, and there's some sort of data exfiltration protection option that is based on Interset's behavioral analytics stuff.

As far as I can tell from the marketing materials, the idea seems to be that if if a coder starts regularly looking at the sales numbers, file a report. Maybe someone needs a reminder about the consequences of insider trading, but maybe they just want to know if the project's getting traction in the real world, and the false alarm can be resolved with a brief chat. If someone tries to clone an entire corporate monorepo on a salesperson's workstation at 3 in the morning local time, shut it down, because the most likely explanation is that the salesperson's workstation has been compromised.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> If you have access to the build server you can modify the code, after pulling from the repo.

Or, if you have access to the binary repo where the code is pushed by the build server after building (often just a file server and FTP) then you can place your own binary.

Of course it us possible to use crypto hashes throughout the process to prevent these kinds of hacks from working, but...

If you do that, then the security process itself is what hackers will attack.

To prevent installation of exploits you really need to pay serious attention to the whole release process and not assume that anything is simple or secure. Only the paranoid can succeed in security.

</comment><comment><USER29> Might be the NSA, might be a foreign competitor to the NSA. In any case, don't do to others, what you wouldn't want done to you!

<comment><USER30> Right, that's the spy agency moto, isn't it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> One can start to question using proprietary security software and devices with closed source vs using opensource.

If its one device, it may be in others.

<comment><USER25> Open source is not a panacea. It doesn't matter if the code is perfect, if the algorithm it implements is flawed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Can we have a discussion about not every nation state being NSA and what that means?

</comment><comment><USER33> Juniper is providing crucial Radio-access and backhaul security features to mobile network vendors such as in Nokia / NSN equipment. would be interesting to understand how these are impacted.

[http://www.lightreading.com/mobile/mobile-security/nsn- junip...](http://www.lightreading.com/mobile/mobile-security/nsn-juniper- strengthen-mobile-ties/d/d-id/706046)

</comment><comment><USER34> CNN is the People magazine of cable network news. I suppose this story is important because it's exposing this issue to the wider American audience, but anyone who is reading HN already knows about this issue.

</comment><comment><USER35> I hope this may let them think more seriously about the potential security threat that a so-called "governamento backdoor" would pose.

</comment><comment><USER36> > A senior administration official told CNN, "... The administration remains > committed to enhancing our national cybersecurity by raising our cyber > defenses"

I hope you can see my eyes because I'm rolling them as hard as I can.

This does raise the question of whether the US government is foolish enough to use insecure US made electronics. And I suppose answers it.

</comment><comment><USER7> Oops, we didn't notice that China/Whoever was using our own back door for 3 years!

Clearly we need even MORE back doors! /s

</comment><comment><USER37> Is that a big deal? after all, it's common knowledge that the US spy routinely on their allies [1,2]. Nobody really seemed to care at the time.

[1] [http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped- ge...](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/08/nsa-tapped-german- chancellery-decades-wikileaks-claims-merkel) [2] [https://wikileaks.org/nsa- france/](https://wikileaks.org/nsa-france/)

<comment> singiht34-02 I think the undercurrent that in implied is that there are countries like China who don't play by the normal rules of international espionage. Since they are so tightly coupled to Chinese industry they abuse their resources and power to feed domestic industry. To most people this seems very scummy.

Are there examples the other way? Where the US stole secrets and then handed them off to domestic companies? Maybe in defense? but otherwise?

<comment><USER38> Yes, there have been such allegations. A recent case involves Airbus who allege industrial espionage in the context of revelations that the German BND helped the NSA spy on European businesses: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world- europe-32542140](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32542140)

<comment><USER39> Your link does not support your confirmation.

> _Leaks from a secret BND document suggest that its monitoring station at Bad > Aibling checked whether European companies were breaking trade embargos > after a request from the NSA._

If all the NSA did was look for illegal (off the books) sales of military equipment, that's exactly the kind of thing that's easy to justify ethically. If they were taking Airbus data and funneling it to Boeing, that would be highly unethical.

Is there any evidence the NSA has ever been motivated by economic espionage?

<comment><USER38> Indeed, the link only confirms that he allegation had been made; whether it has ever occurred is rather harder to confirm, of course.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Occam's Razor would say that the code was modified by a disgruntled employee just before leaving, no? Why is the jump being made to foreign governments?

<comment><USER41> Bypassing VPN encryption is only broadly useful if you can get access to packets in transit. Nation-state agencies are the only actors that probably already have such wiretaps. (As discussed here: [https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/12/19/juniper.html](https://www.imperialviolet.org/2015/12/19/juniper.html))

<comment><USER42> Non-nation-states could still get access to a reduced set of packets. I can sit next to you in a coffee shop with public wifi and see everything in the clear if I can decrypt your VPN.

Also, maybe they never intended to use it, and just wanted to make their company look bad.

<comment><USER4> Is this guy sitting in a coffee shop with a 2U rackmount ScreenOS-based hardware VPN connected to his laptop? If not, this particular attack that the article is discussing wouldn't work.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Software was eating the world – now landlords are eating everything - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@sbuss/software-was-eating-the-world-now-landlords-are-eating-everything-e21ba6802f54 <comment><AUTHOR> See other discussion [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20779868](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20779868)</comment>


Exciting developments in GNU Radio - <AUTHOR> http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/exciting-developments-in-gnu-radio

<comment><USER2> I've worked with the USRP and USRP2 extensively trying to use the hardware to detect cosmic rays using forward scatter of radio waves. Both are incredibly fun, versatile tools, especially if you learn a little bit of verilog.

<comment><USER3> I too have been working with the USRP lately for doing underwater freespace communication - basically shooting lasers through water to communicate. It's a very neat system and I was able to get a streaming video system up and running within 30 minutes. Very cool.</comment></comment>


New service injects privacy into social media through scrambled text - <AUTHOR> http://www.arcticstartup.com/2012/01/09/neko-io-adds-private-sharing-layer-to-social-media

<comment> mike-cardwell "I really like this way of circumventing problems with privacy in social media. Rather than building your own new social media service, it makes much more sense to inject your own privacy features into anything and everything."

I really dislike this methodology. The complexity and friction it introduces excludes the vast majority of people who don't yet, and maybe never will, realise how they would benefit from it.

We need a distributed social network, which can't be taken down, censored or monitored by any organisation or government, which utilises public key crypto for privacy, and which is at least as easy to use as Facebook. An immensely difficult project to tackle, but one that would change the World.

<comment><USER2> Once Facebook hears of this service they'll probably disable linking to it from Facebook, since it takes Facebook users off-site where they can't be fed Facebook's ads. A distributed social network that's not subject to the whims of a single company really seems to be the only way to get control over your privacy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Being the pragmatist that I am: Why bother with public social media if you want to say something in private? Also, from a social behavioral view, this is very rude. It's the online equivalent of 2 or more people in a group switching to speaking another language so someone else in the group can't understand the topic.

<comment><USER4> Here's an example Neko.io message for you;

"I'm on a meditation trip in India. If you really need to bother me, here's my travel schedule and emergency number; [https://neko.io/m/g4hF/xcjZq85lyL9TTAjefE1GLw/xGf_TME2-G9YRl...](https://neko.io/m/g4hF/xcjZq85lyL9TTAjefE1GLw/xGf_TME2-G9YRl1bfTPkstbMFWMHnzWj6Sv8zJmTUBjslshVkTm_XNSLyp7D5Z1luhaV_MYJX4TCJnQuX6SqUg)

Neko.io is a utility. People post links to social networks all the time. The above link might look long and scrambled, but most services are shortening it automatically.

<comment><USER3> Neko.io looks like it's trying to solve the access control list issues that Facebook has been plagued with since... forever. But it gets no further. It only exports these issues to all social networks.

Watch Zed Shaw's "The ACL is dead" presentation and you'll understand why.

Also it requires yet another non-standard authorization utility (Mepin?) or a separate login. I'm phatigued by phishing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe you shouldn't be using (public) social media then? =/

<comment><USER6> in 2004/2005 when I signed up for the facebook it was NOT a public site

<comment><USER7> I seem to remember it being that you could see anyone at your college. Which made it defacto public because strangers had access to your profile. (You had no access control with your profile). As long as I had a college email I could see anyone else's profile if they were at the same college. Networks were college based.

People were up in arms when anyone with an email address could get in and see their stuff. They wanted to expand their market. I think that was 2005. So in response they hacked in some not very good privacy features.

Maybe I am misremembering, however.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Isn't this what Facebook Friend Lists and Google Plus Circles are for?

<comment><USER9> Can you use Facebook Friend Lists in Twitter ?

<comment><USER8> Obviously not. I believe Twitter is the only platform of the 3 that doesn't have a built in option to do this. It seems a bit like reinventing the wheel to me but perhaps that's because I can't see myself using it. I guess the USP is really cross-platform support?

<comment><USER9> Ok I see what you mean: circles. I agree that circles are old invention. But I think security of those circles is very compromised. I like the idea about encryption with social media.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Cragne Manor, Massive Collaborative Tribute to Anchorhead, Released - <AUTHOR> https://rcveeder.net/cragne/ <comment><AUTHOR> This was a mammoth effort by 80+ authors and programmers organized by Ryan Veeder and Jenni Polodna to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the classic work of horror interactive fiction "Anchorhead" by Michael Gentry.

It was written in "Exquisite Corpse" style where each author was unaware of the details of other author's contributions, with Ryan and Jenni providing the interfaces between different rooms. It thus varies wildly in style, tone, and feel; individual rooms can be story-focused, puzzle-focused, or somewhere in between.

The whole is a gigantic work that is puzzle-dense and which will alternately delight, amuse, confound, and horrify. Do not expect to jump in and finish it in an afternoon; it's taken weeks for contributing authors just to find their individual rooms during pre-release testing and debugging.</comment>


Live map of Russian forces advancing in Ukraine - <AUTHOR> http://liveuamap.com

<comment><USER2> This post was killed by user flags.

It should be obvious that this post is off-topic for Hacker News. It's of dubious provenance (presenting disputed information as if it were neutral), appears partisan, and the entire topic is politically inflammatory and propaganda-saturated.

<comment><AUTHOR> True, it's pro-Ukraine. The format was what I thought was particularly interesting for the HN audience (pretty well executed news-on-map interface + strategy game style icons). Keep it killed, though.</comment></comment>


US begins withdrawal from Paris climate accord - <AUTHOR> https://www.dw.com/en/us-begins-withdrawal-from-paris-climate-accord/a-51113107 <comment><USER2> This is an unintentionally good thing: The paris accord:

* was non-binding

* guaranteed that no nation would be challenged or monitored on it's emissions reporting

* allowed countries to just set their own targets and how to meet them

* contained no penalties for not meeting even those targets

It was an agreement for everyone to just do whatever they wanted.

Almost 20 years after the Kyoto was signed and we're no closer to an actual agreement. Worse in fact: Paris is held up as if it matters, it fools people into thinking something is being done.

It's not.

<comment><USER3> You're not actually making the point that withdrawing from the agreement is a good thing. What positive effects for the climate will follow? What better agreements will this enable?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wonder how much lasting damage this administration - well, let's be frank, this president - has done to the US' reputation when it comes to committing long-term to agreements and contracts it has signed.

Consider the Paris climate accord. Consider threatening to not protect certain NATO members. Consider the Iran nuclear agreement.

<comment><USER5> I doubt any at all really, people dont judge teams based on their coaches, or companies based on their CEO's, just as I dont judge my friends in the UK based on their governments decision capabilities around Brexit.

<comment><USER6> The calculus changes significantly here given we are talking about a democracy. The group chose this person (by intention or inaction).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Ironically the US have the highest reduction in CO2 emissions, most likely due to the increased use of gas instead of coal. The cheap gas is caused by increased production of oil and gas due to fracking. Another example of technology making the world better.

[https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day- in-2017-us-h...](https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-in-2017-us- had-largest-decline-in-co2-emissions-in-the-world-for-9th-time-this-century/)

<comment><USER8> > Another example of technology making the world better.

Fracking isn't without its drawbacks. And since there is essentially no public information on what chemicals they even pump into the ground (which almost certainly leaks to groundwater sometimes, because things go wrong - like oil spills) it's a little hard to assess its environmental impact. At least in the US, the fracking companies don't have to tell anybody (including the government) what chemicals they are using.

<comment><USER9> > At least in the US, the fracking companies don't have to tell anybody > (including the government) what chemicals they are using.

This is utterly terrifying. Private companies can pump unspecified junk in to the ground with ZERO oversight? That cannot be right! This is why British people are always worried when we hear talk of closer alignment with US environmental "protections".

<comment><USER10> They have flint experience level to deal with whatever happens right

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> After the withdrawal it is up to individual states to try to keep pace with Paris accord. California is mentioned a lot and gives hope that US will not become a hopeless laggard in renewable energy & climate innovation. I wonder where other states stand on this, and how their efforts will be hampered by a federal government not being on their side.

</comment><comment><USER12> Well, that's one campaign promise Trump is delivering on...

I guess it's because it's a discounted cost into the future whereas building the wall would require funds now.

<comment><USER3> Looks like some sections of "the wall" have been/are being built, though apparently it's feasible to saw through it with $100 tools: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/smugglers-are- sawing...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/smugglers-are-sawing- through-new-sections-of-trumps-border- wall/2019/11/01/25bf8ce0-fa72-11e9-ac8c-8eced29ca6ef_story.html)</comment></comment>