ES7 async functions – a step in the wrong direction (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://spion.github.io/posts/es7-async-await-step-in-the-wrong-direction.html <comment><USER2> This argument basically boils down to "I think elegant abstractions are more important than readable code". This is a pretty valid position to hold, but I strongly doubt the majority of the JS community agrees.

A similar thing is how when you return a Promise from a 'then' callback, the resulting promise does not resolve to an inner promise but just to the _value_ that was inside the inner promise. This completely breaks the monadic properties of Promise, but given that JS has no nice support for monads, it makes code simpler and easier.

IMO, but Promises/A+ spec designers made the right call here. Purists will disagree, but I bet the majority of the JS community hasn't even given this a thought (yet uses the feature all the time). I feel the same about async/await.

Also, anecdotally, at my company we're heavy heavy users of async/await ever since Babel added support for it, and we've yet to run into any of the problems the author refers to.

<comment><USER3> I have to agree... just because someone may have a case where they need multi- stage transactions or cancellable workers doesn't mean that Promises and async/await aren't useful as they stand.

I wrote a ton of code last year to migrate data from one system to another... without async/await, Promises and node-style streams, it would have been really nasty, deeply nested code... as it was, the flows were fairly functional, really elegant, and worked extremely well. I will say that Bluebird is useful beyond what the Promises spec offers, and have gone back and forth between using it, replacing the native Promise where available and just using whatever promise shim or native is available.

I didn't like promises earlier on, as without some of the extras that async functions offer, I didn't consider them much better than callbacks. Now, I'm sold.

<comment><USER4> Not sure what you mean by multi-stage transactions? It applies for ordinary transactions - its just a way to avoid passing a transaction parameter everywhere but still guaranteeing that the entire batch of queries executed within a single transaction.

I don't think the problems I'm describing here are all that uncommon in server-side code. Continuation local storage (the equivalent of thread local storage) in particular seems to be an often requested feature by many users in node.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > Cannot use higher order functions

This code:

        async function renderChapters(urls) {
            urls.map(getJSON).forEach(j => (await j).html));
        }

is assuming that the call to _await j_ is the _await_ which corresponds to the top-level _async_. That's not how these things work! That call to _await j_ is not in the same scope!

I don't buy arguments where the misuses of a feature not working means the feature is somehow bad. Yes, it can seem confusing, but that's the nature of having more powerful constructs. When you mix asynchronous code and lambda expressions, you're going to have to pay attention to scope.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes, there are some edge cases, but the reality is, I've seen code festooned with Promises, and code using async/await, and I find the async/await code far more readable.

You could make a similar argument that Promises are insufficient, and you should really be using Observables, because there are lots of situations where the generality is even better.

On the other hand, there's no universal hammer, and no reason why you can't mix all approaches, choosing each where it works best.

</comment><comment><USER7> > Generators are JavaScript's programmable semicolons. Lets not take away that > power by taking away the programmability. Lets drop async/await and write > our own interpreters.

One of "our own interpreters" (i.e not standard in JS), that I am very fond of, is js-csp [1]. It's a replica of Clojure(Script)'s core.async, or Go's channels/goroutines. It uses ES6 generator functions underneath.

James Long has written an excellent post about it [2]. I find it to be the less taxing on the mind solution for coordinating complex asynchronous processes in JS, especially when paired with transducers [3]. Furthermore, powerful Go/Clojure patterns can easily be re-used in JS.

In conjunction with CoffeeScript, the code becomes elegant and straightforward since there is no 'function*' ugliness required.

That's the least complex solution I have found to like the most. Performance and memory usage suffer a bit, but it's very straightforward to optimize if/when needed.

[1] [https://github.com/ubolonton/js-csp](https://github.com/ubolonton/js-csp)

[2] [http://jlongster.com/Taming-the-Asynchronous-Beast-with- CSP-...](http://jlongster.com/Taming-the-Asynchronous-Beast-with-CSP-in- JavaScript)

[3] [http://jlongster.com/Transducers.js--A-JavaScript-Library- fo...](http://jlongster.com/Transducers.js--A-JavaScript-Library-for- Transformation-of-Data)

<comment><USER4> While we're at nicking stuff from Go using generators, our latest effort is adding defer in bluebird :)

[https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird/issues/1014](https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird/issues/1014)

Its almost done [1], we just want to also support auto-disposable objects so that you don't even need to clean them up with defer.

[1]: [https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird/commit/f944db753ff2...](https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird/commit/f944db753ff25e43561fb6c65a6664417b9892cd#diff-3129285757f0c44eca9973432b3bb15aR704)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting write up, examples, and ideas, but the conclusion is a bit silly:

>Lets drop async/await and write our own interpreters.

Guess what kind of "interpreter" most people would need? The async/await kind. It doesn't solve everything and it does introduce more awkwardness[1] to the language but it's categorically a productivity and readability boost. Now to address the individual points raised:

1\. Try/Catch

The argument here is against a core language feature and has nothing to do with async/await. Sure, guarded catch statements would be nice, but I contend that if you're relying on multiple levels of exception handling then you're using exceptions for flow control.

2\. Higher order functions

JavaScript is a multi-paradigm language and as mentioned earlier that leads to awkwardness. You can only pull the language in so many directions before it becomes inconsistent. Some features will be geared towards functional paradigms and other will be imperative by nature. For example instead of `forEeach` you can use `for of` which allows you to yield inside the loop. In that sense async/await, for-of, and try/catch are all imperative control flow constructs. On the other hand callbacks, promises, and higher order functions are functional constructs. Mixing them together is not easy (nor should it be if you ask me).

3\. "generality"

In this case you might not want to use such a high-level construct like async/await. Just like when you have to do caching or memoization you tend to drop down to do promises again. However, you can push this down into a library that exposes a promise and then continue using async/await in the rest of your application. In this specific case you want a monad-like abstraction, something that carries certain context across a sequence of computations. The generator implementation might be an overkill but the syntax looks nice.

[1]: This is a great write up on how adding different types of functions to the language makes it awkward to say the least: [http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color- is-y...](http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-your- function/)

<comment><USER4> > Guess what kind of "interpreter" most people would need? The async/await > kind.

Because we never got the chance to explore the full power of generators, and we probably never will because of it. We will of course solve our other problems the usual old-fashioned way (e.g. DI for transactions, some other funky mechanisms for CLS, no automatic SQL query optimizations, no automatic GraphQL query optimizations).

You can't need what you aren't aware of.

> The argument here is against a core language feature and has nothing to do > with async/await.

Not directly, no, but thanks to async/await a lot more errors will be flying up the call stack than ever before. This will greatly increase the chances that you catch something you didn't intend to catch. Unless you have filtered catch, which would improve that a little bit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> > Lets drop async/await and write our own interpreters.

Let's "codify" patterns instead of having everybody roll his own implementation thus make codebases more compatible.

All criticisms made in the article are 100% valid, however the former principle trumps every other one.

I don't want having to import yet another micro-module just to write something that should be trivial to do in plain javascript.

As for try/catch, some languages support pattern matching, why not Javascript?

<comment><USER10> Some form of catch guards have been implemented in Firefox for over a decade, so if you were running SpiderNode, you could use them right now.

        try {
          (17).toString(42);
        }
        catch (ex if ex instanceof RangeError) {
          console.log("caught");
        }
        catch (ex) {
          console.log("handling something else");
        }

The if's clause has standard standard conditional semantics, so you can use any expression there; you aren't limited to selecting on the exception's prototype:

        try {
          throw new Error("whatever");
        }
        catch (ex if ex.message == "whatever") {
          console.log("caught");
        }

<comment><USER3> Well, it's entirely possible to submit that as a stage-0, then it could get in babel and be used sooner than later.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If language has primitives for some concepts then people tend to use those because they have special syntax that makes using them more convenient.

For example if language has special syntax for numbers people tend to use number as type of account (or string for contact person). Then when software evolves and new information needs to be kept for account and new operations performed the shorthand syntax stands in the way. You can't easily change the type of account from number to complex object without refactoring all of the places in your code where account was used as number. (I'm ignoring languages with overridable operators to make the point).

People tend to obsessively stick to built in stuff (anti-pattern Primitive Obsession) because swapping for what they need now is excessive burden.

What I would very much like to see in languages development is that whenever the syntax gets introduced programmer should be able to use it on more complex things then the syntax was primarily designed for.

If you introduce syntax for operators don't make them work just for few built in types. If you introduce async/await don't make them just work on promises (especially not just built ins) but anything that is shaped like a promise. If you introduce generators make sure that they programmer can implement persistable version of them with the same syntax.

<comment><USER12> Async/await doesn't only work on promises, it works on any object that has a method named `then`. What's problematic is that you have no control or extension points in the runner so you cannot implement something like Go's defer statement. With generators (which can be made work like async/await, only you say yield instead of await) you can implement the defer statement and more.

<comment><USER11> Good that it works on any object with then. Shame that it's not more flexible.

What I said was more general argument about what each new syntax should support at minimum.

What you are saying is like having operator overload, but not ability to define new custom operators, or not being able to define 3 or more arguments operators or default arguments for operators, or quoted arguments for operators. Or regretting that C# foreach works on every Enumerable but takes every item one after another (preventing from implementing collection that would have parallel behaviour with foreach)

It's good if you can do a lot with new syntax but that's nice to have and case by case. What I was talking about I consider general and pretty much mandatory.

Lots of people feel that if you look at the piece of code you should be immediately be able to tell what it's doing without any context. It's intuitively attractive goal but I think that most measures that achieve that also result in putting obstacles in software usual evolution making people do very contorted things when they need to add yet another feature with limited time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > And voila, we've just implemented a query optimizer. It will fetch all issue > owners with a single query. If we add an SQL parser into the mix, it should > be possible to rewrite real SQL queries.

Maybe my sarcasm detector is off but is this really being presented as a reasonable solution to the problem discussed in the article?

<comment><USER4> Sorry, I'm not being quite clear there - I'm just trying to illustrate that a programmable execution engine could have many uses (one of them being the ability to automatically optimize the n+1 queries problem).

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I like when languages are small and simple. The overlap between generators and async/await seems a little strange. So my feeling is that the "wrong direction" is towards language complexity.

</comment><comment><USER15> Cool I guess. But people will still find a way to write bad ES7. Will it be harder to do? Maybe. Hard to tell until it gets implemented by all major browsers, at which point i'll have given up programming for professional hover board racing sponsered by ubersoft (microsoft got aquired after the second robot uprising).

Edit:

Also after reading the article it strikes me that ES6 and ES7 features are going to create a huge gap in developer knowledge between those who fully understand ES7/8 and those who only understand ES5. Will we one day hear "oh beginners should start by learning ES5 and then do ES7?". Doesn't that sound a lot like c++?? Do we want that for javascript?

<comment><USER16> I primarily work in Coffeescript.

A lot of the things I love from Coffeescript got picked up in ES6/ES7, so it wasn't a big deal for me to transition. :-) (sad that Coffeescript will decline when it has more to offer..)

I had to work on an ES5 project recently and I was almost in tears because I couldn't use a computed property. (someObject[someValue]) I wound up writing a switch to assign the correct index, and I felt very sad about my life.

Someday people might not learn about how we kept things private in closures. They'll have a `private` keyword to make their transpiler do it for them. It has become less important to directly know how inheritance works, so people might be happy having a `class` syntax. There are a few times I've wanted to make an object fallback on another without making an official "class", so maybe this will be secret juju someday.

I tend to view language development like overfilled buckets. When JS becomes as complicated and unwieldly as C++, we'll spill into the next bucket in an effort to create another simple language.

<comment><USER17> _I had to work on an ES5 project recently and I was almost in tears because I couldn 't use a computed property. (someObject[someValue]) I wound up writing a switch to assign the correct index, and I felt very sad about my life._

Just checking -- is this a parody of a JavaScript hipster, or do you seriously get depressed by writing a switch statement?

<comment><USER3> I can't speak for the gp, but I get irritated when I can't use newer language features... pretty much everything I use is in stage-2 supported via babel at this point, so pretty happy...

That said, when I have to work in an older project without babel, it gets cumbersome to change into doing things the old way. You can get really used to arrow functions and async... Working without cjs modules is harder still. There are many layers of convenience, and it's easy to get used to them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Honestly I would prefer this to promise. Yeah promises are nice and all but I keep getting myself into projects where promises are nested _even worse_ than callback soup which ultimately ends up just confusing me because it's not simple and straight forward anymore.

Though I still don't understand why the ECMAScript standards body keeps updating _almost_ only syntax. They've done _so little_ to the standard library that it's maddening. Honestly I would take zero syntax changes / improvements if it meant getting first class, JavaScript standard utilities for, say, dealing with HTTP / HTTPS.

<comment><USER19> You mean like [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/API/Fetch_API](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/API/Fetch_API) ?

<comment><USER18> No because that is only for the web. It's not part of the ECMAScript standard. There are packages to make it work in node and hacks to make it work on more browsers. But no standard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It seems like every time something nice and new comes to JS it's immediately called bad.

<comment><USER21> Just wait until the :: function bind operator is added.

I expect the Haskell community to s __* enough bricks to build another Empire State building.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Wait, so are you saying that async functions are a step in the wrong direction, or are you actually saying that you like them but would want to add features / do it better?

</comment><comment><USER23> Using a library like Bluebird couldn't you simply write and get the exact behavior intended?

        async function renderChapters(urls) {
            Promise.map(urls, getJSON).each(j => j.html));
        }

or

        async function renderChapters(urls) {
            var chapters = await Promise.map(urls, getJSON);
            chapters.forEach(j => j.html);
        }

</comment><comment><USER24> > Since promises are a userland library, restrictions like the above do not > apply. We can write our own promise implementation that demands the use of a > predicate filter

Does such a library exist already? It seems like it'd be a very useful thing.

<comment><USER12> [http://bluebirdjs.com/docs/api/catch.html](http://bluebirdjs.com/docs/api/catch.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> To me this sort of reads like someone discovering lisp (but in JS.)

</comment><comment><USER26> What you're looking for is Async Generators [0].

They were in traceur master not too long ago, but I'm not sure if they have been pulled out ([0] indicates that the proposal was pulled and replaced with the lesser Observable).

[0] [https://github.com/jhusain/asyncgenerator](https://github.com/jhusain/asyncgenerator)</comment>


New Google Plus design: I dislike it - <AUTHOR> http://dendory.net/blog.php?id=4f866335

<comment><USER2> As a designer, I'm a bit confused by this criticism. The reason why I hate Facebook so much, is that because every single space is jam-packed with text and content. Negative space is important to give some visual space to breathe. I like the new design and google+ in general because it feels simple, clean, etc. Do you complain about google's search engine page being too simple as well? Maybe it's just subjective, but I like the empty space.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not empty space, it's wasted space. Google Plus was brought out as a site to share our stuff, and see what others shared. Now, that's 25% of the real estate. The rest is an invitation to other Google products like Search, Mail and Chat, an incentive to use hangouts, a list of trending topics, a list of unknown people just in case we happen to k ow them, an incentive to invite others to join Google Plus...

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> +Remus Morosanu posted on + that Facebook wastes lots of space too. In fact, lots of websites are wasting tons of space that content could go in, but only get away with it because the content is center aligned.

[https://plus.google.com/u/0/111674016668995132288/posts/fTDU...](https://plus.google.com/u/0/111674016668995132288/posts/fTDUBP66Y8x)

Screenshot: [https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XXjI- OOfgBA/T4XRa9n14DI/A...](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XXjI- OOfgBA/T4XRa9n14DI/AAAAAAAAA7Q/Ye5vpAA17X8/s1451/Capture.JPG)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ya but if a site wastes space by putting ads for their own stuff, we expect it. If Facebook or Google do it, on sites they expect us to share our stuff on, that's not the same thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I agree that it's wasted space, and that is something they could fix, but it seems like it happens all the time nowadays. It is more obvious once you scroll down a bit on Google+. But overall their design is cool and it feels more like an app than a website.

You can also create your own custom stylesheet to fix the whitespace now.

For Chrome Users: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/oiaejidbmkiecgbjei...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/oiaejidbmkiecgbjeifoejpgmdaleoha)

For Firefox: <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/stylish/> (I think?)

</comment><comment><USER5> I appreciate how the new design makes a lot of Google+ features first class citizens. Chat, Circles and hangouts can be easily seen and accessed in this new design which makes for a more enjoyable social experience for me as I browse.

<comment><USER3> I've got to agree. The fact that games and pages are sort of put on the back burner (but can be changed by user preference) really shows that Google cares about nailing the core experience. They've done a great job so far of keeping the stream one of the most pure places for information on the internet, as far as pollution goes. They didn't take the Facebook route of pushing the games section front and center.

Note that + doesn't have ads either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Vic Gondutra said they've reserved the white space for an upcoming feature.

<comment><USER7> Ads.

<comment><USER8> He specifically said it wasn't ads.</comment></comment></comment>


Google Says 20% Time is Alive and Well - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/117164/20-time-is-officially-alive-and-well-says-google/

<comment><USER2> "However, in a work environment as demanding as the one at Google, it can be challenging to carve out the time to launch projects outside of an engineer's "day job.""

I.e., give up your 20% time or get stackranked/shuffled out of Google. So it's a benefit that exists on paper for recruiting purposes but which employees are strongly disincentivized from utilizing.

<comment><USER3> Attaching speculation to a piece that was sparked by hearsay is not much of a contribution.

<comment><USER4> Agreed, the article is a little thin.</comment></comment></comment>


2016 Will Be the Year You Realize You Don't Need the Blockchain - <AUTHOR> https://ripple.com/insights/2016-will-be-the-year-you-realized-you-dont-need-the-blockchain/ <comment><USER2> >In 2015, experimenting with "blockchain technology" signalled >innovative intent. This year, people will expect results.

Exactly !</comment>


How can startups destroy more jobs? - <AUTHOR> http://danielharan.posterous.com/how-can-startups-destroy-more-jobs

<comment><USER3> Innovations which reduce the amount of human effort needed to do things also reduce the amount of human effort that is directly or indirectly needed per unit of goods or services consumed, and so to fund the same total consumption, less work per individual is needed.

There are three sides of the triangle which can move - the percentage unemployment, the number of hours per employee, or the total amount of consumption. Historically, people have simply consumed more - luxury is addictive, and people measure each other relative to what others in their community have.

However, there is a major counterbalancing force to efficiency gains - <USER2> there are only finite natural resources, and many easily accessible reserves are becoming depleted. Reserves of fossil fuels and high grade ores are declining fast, so increasingly more labour is required per unit of energy or metal - and the cumulative effects of pollution rise with accumulation over time and a rising population, more labour is required to prevent pollution.

<comment><USER4> There are only finite natural resources if you're talking about a fixed number of atoms of each variety being available on the earth, but we don't have finite resources. We are creating new things all the time that lessen our need to consume natural resources. And if we stopped subsidizing consumption, we'd see even more such creativity.

Any natural resource that gets scarcer even as demand for it increases naturally gets more expensive. This gives people incentives to avoid its use, either by being more efficient or substituting alternatives.

This has even worked for land itself. As land gets more expensive as more people wish to live in an urban area, buildings add stories, using the same land over and over again.

<comment><USER5> As use of a resource becomes more efficient the rate of consupmtion actually _increases_ not decreases:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>

<comment><USER6> It's an unproven proposition, and usually only applied to industry. If my refrigerator is more efficient, I won't buy a second one. A more efficient car might give me an incentive to drive more, but that seems really marginal.

<comment><USER7> People who hadn't brought refrigerators before, might be a first one, though. And if there are extremely efficient, we might even switch to living inside refrigerators [1] in summer.

[1] Some people already do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Yup, startups are creative destruction, that is, if the wise people allow big corporations to be destroyed. #toobigtofail

</comment><comment><USER9> With regards to call centers, you might want to first ask those with a job there if they want their job destroyed. Without regard to their current job search plans, they are there for a reason...

<comment><USER6> I actually used to work in one. A couple years after I left, the center relocated to another province. It _was_ a shit job.

As a society we're not doing a great job of helping workers move on. In any case, it really shouldn't be up to startups to protect jobs, any more than car companies had to compensate carriage manufacturers or nail factories helped blacksmiths.

<comment><USER10> As a society, we do a terrible job at helping workers move on.

You go to school for 12 years, then possibly uni for 3-7, then are unlikely to receive more than a couple of months of formal training throughout the rest of your life, _even if you change careers_.

Virtually nobody does a university course after graduating. I don't think that's because university is useless (though there is room for improvement), or that skills are easy to obtain elsewhere, but a society that tries to load a lifetime of study onto people who don't even know what they are going to be when they grow up.

<comment><USER11> I agree. I'd make more sense for many career paths if people did maybe 1 year university, then work for maybe 5 years, then 6 months uni, work for 5 years, etc.

Why do all undergraduate courses last the same length of time? Not because the amount of time it takes to master every subject is the same, but because of administrative convenience.

<comment><USER12> Also because it has just been so. In the old times, you used to do the same thing as your parents, and capabilities didn't usually go obsolete during the course of one's work life, even less if that was at a college level.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Destroy jobs, increase supply of labor commodity, ???, profit

</comment><comment><USER14> Poster has confused the difference between lowering unemployment rates and the shifting role of labor, like that brought about by the industrial revolution.

Hopefully he isn't secretly dreaming of firing the person who answers the phones as a triumph of the information age.

<comment><USER6> The kinds of work we've done have changed, as has the social structures in which we perform it. I'd rather see far more people being self-employed, as it was before the industrial revolution - although in more interesting jobs and with a higher standard of living.

<comment><USER14> I am struggling to understand how this whole thing doesn't boil down to "we should eliminate jobs that I used to do and hated, and get more people doing jobs like the ones I enjoy and have now"

<comment><USER6> Lots of career paths (not necessarily jobs!) add value to society, and I'm not about to do them. Daycare worker? They should be paid WAY more given the value they provide. Even if the salary was higher than mine, there's no way I would consider that as an option.

Conversely, there are lots of dirty, dangerous and demeaning jobs I've never held which don't seem worth it. How many people die in coal mines every year? Would you want to do that?

By all means we should give those workers a decent shot at retraining, like Germany did with their coal miners. If anyone figures out how to use robots to entirely automate their job or engineers manage to make wind and solar scale up cheaply, I would say that's a net positive for humanity.

<comment><USER15> "If anyone figures out how to use robots to entirely automate their job or engineers manage to make wind and solar scale up cheaply, I would say that's a net positive for humanity."

The unions have prevented many jobs from being automated.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Best Keyboard for Programming - <AUTHOR> https://www.keymouse.com/ <comment><USER2> For me for many years this has been the "best" keyboard for programming: [https://hhkeyboard.us/happyhacking/](https://hhkeyboard.us/happyhacking/)

<comment><USER3> I love my HHKB to death. I can also really recommend getting a reprogramable controller off of hasu from geekhack ([https://geekhack.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=58s2o9bvije7q36shi8...](https://geekhack.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=58s2o9bvije7q36shi8clr5cl950us6q&topic=71517.0)). It's really easy to install and customize the firmware, and it adds a whole new dimension to how much I enjoy my keyboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I love the idea, and am quite tempted to give it a go.

I especially love the option to '3d print your own dummy model to try out the different sizes'

Are you a single inventor bringing this baby to life, or is this a project from a larger company? I'd really love to hear your startup story, particularly as I also have some gadget ideas I'd like to reify.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, single inventor (programmer of 25+ years now). Started a Kickstarter campaign, but ended up changing to a 3D printed modular system, rather than going injection mold route. Gave us the flexibility to improve our design without high costs, but also allowed us to create a modular system, so anyone can use our parts to build their own devices.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm a big fan of Ergodox ([https://ergodox-ez.com](https://ergodox-ez.com)). It's a little clunky to get used to at first, but it's so customizable that you can easily adjust for any positions your hand wants to be in. It made a huge difference for my RSI.

<comment><USER6> I have an Ergodox but never got used to it. I prefer a normal 75% layout.

<comment><USER7> It takes a while to get used to. I switched to Ergodox and Colemak at the same time, and it took me around 3 months to get up to my normal speed again. Unless you type a lot on other people's keyboards (IT-support or similar), I'd say it's definitely worth it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> (I have been programming for +20y for +8 hours minimum a day) I tried so many keyboards. Types and brands. Mechanical are unfortunately a no go because of the noise (I am not alone in the office) and the required position of the arm, wrist and hand (if I want to have everything aligned naturally and because of the height of the keys and the keyboard).

Finally, the best (for me) is the Microsoft Modern Keyboard with Fingerprint ID. Only complains: missing removable battery and missing some separation space between "blocks" (numpad, f keys, arrows, etc). IMPORTANT: it would not use it for gaming.

On the go, the keyboard of my Lenovo X1 carbon is fantastic.

<comment><AUTHOR> You mentioned that the keys are too noisy for mechanical keyboards, but have you tried Cherry Silent Red switches? Here's a video that explains the Cherry MX mechanical switches: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSPH3HvxhQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSPH3HvxhQ)

<comment><USER8> Yes, unfortunately. My 130USD cherry keyboard ended as an expensive toy for my toddler (he was using it without being connected). :(

The issue is not only the switch but the resonance with the keyboard (even with plastic rings).

(Gaming with it was superb, but I needed one for programming. Different use case.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Intriguing, but not a price point that many people will be willing to pay just to try it out. Even with a 30 day return policy, the 10% return fee isn't an ideal experience if it doesn't work for me.

A way to get a live demo before buying would be a good thing.

</comment><comment><USER10> I love the idea of this keyboard/mouse. I looked into it while searching for a keyboard to help with my RSI.

By the way, I would love to see something like your product that would allow me to use dual cursors on the screen at the same time to interact with the computer. Resizing and passing things back and forth between monitors while doing graphic design would be awesome!

I know that this may be out of reach for windows, but I would love to see something come about that allowed this on Linux. I'm sure program support is asking too much...

Also, I would love to see both a trackball and optical sensor in a new version of your product.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! There are some possible options out there for 2 mouse cursors, you can see here: [https://www.keymouse.com/resources](https://www.keymouse.com/resources), but not sure how well they work. Also, we are considering making a product that will allow 2 mouse sensors in the same device (trackball and bottom mouse sensor).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> One product (not yet mentioned here?) that seems to be getting overlooked is the trackball version of the split keyboard that you can mount on your armrests:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd4TipIRVlc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd4TipIRVlc)

I've often sort of fantasized about that exact product. Now that I see it, I'm not sure how great it would be to facilitate working while laying back, but . . . it's certainly intriguing.

</comment><comment><USER12> "Best" is quite a statement. Indeed, by "feature" it's great...but personally I'm never going to switch away from a QWERTY keyboard.

It's really easy to under index consistency.

<comment><USER13> This is QWERTY, albeit not one linear rectangle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Congrats! It looks awesome!

I love KinesisAdvantageII. Having two of them myself both with Cherry MX Brown! One for office, and one for home.

I can see some similarities and some differences comparing Keymouse to mine. It looks like a mix of Ergodox and AdvantageII!

Very much like it that you are offering different sizes.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! The AdvantageII and Ergodox are definitely good keyboards. We just went the next step and added the mouse built in, so you don't have to move your hands of the keyboard to use the mouse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Obligatory - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7iSbrkeAhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7iSbrkeAhE) (LTT Review) Take it however you want to, as a joke or as serious criticism.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for posting the link. LTT definitely made a cool video!</comment></comment>


Tesla's woes continue: NTSB is annoyed and share price is falling - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04/teslas-woes-continue-ntsb-is-annoyed-and-share-price-is-falling/ <comment><USER2> Tesla wants to be a major car manufacturer but they can't get a basic assembly line working. Musk's attempts with robotic are failing. They can't find competent 'drivers' to test their self-driving cars. And his April Fools tweet was childish with everything going on. If I was invested in the company I would start pulling my money out while I could recoup something.</comment>


Show HN: 4m-accuracy Indoor Location with Beacons - <AUTHOR> http://blog.estimote.com/post/118294444205/super-simple-and-accurate-indoor-positioning-with <comment><USER2> Pretty cool. You can achieve similar localization accuracy with WiFi, BLE, ZigBee, or long-range RFID. Common techniques are time of flight (ToF, or time of arrival), FMCW ranging, fingerprinting, or signal strength modeling.

Depending on the method used, the limitations arise from (a) needing to know ground truth location of beacons; (b) any necessary training steps; (c) multipath issues; (d) synchronization; or (e) other non-ideal RF artifacts.

You can also combine multiple sensor measurements over time (eg. a person's path) using bayesian inference techniques (ie. particle filters) to further improve location accuracy.

(This topic is related to my PhD thesis: mobile robots finding and interacting with long-range RFID tags in homes. Many of the techniques are akin to radar: [http://www.travisdeyle.com/research.html](http://www.travisdeyle.com/research.html))

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Travis,

Jakub again here. This is great; thanks for your comments. We try to have a very pragmatic approach and believe that room beaconifying procedure should be extremely simple, so mobile developers can concentrate on domain specific challenges regarding their use-cases.

Thus, ref (a) it is as simple deploying few beacons in the room (see this video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBERi7Lf3c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBERi7Lf3c)) The floor plan and location of beacons is calculated automatically and once you save the room in the cloud you or other people can access calibration and build location-aware apps. There is also no specific training requirement.

The advantage of using BLE beacons over WiFi or ZigBee is the fact they are natively integrated with mobile operating system s (e.g. via iBeacon protocol for Apple), so a smartphone can perform calculations in the background without any user intervention - frictionless applications are possible.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN,

this is Jakub, Co-Founder of Estimote.

We have just uploaded into GitHub ([https://github.com/Estimote/iOS-Indoor- SDK](https://github.com/Estimote/iOS-Indoor-SDK)) another release of our Indoor Location SDK.

We have managed to achieve 4m accuracy for large spaces using just several beacons.

In addition it is possible to locate several people same time with a real-time access to their X,Y position via cloud-based API.

We believe this might be your next canvas for awesome future real-world apps. Feel free to test it and share feedback/ask questions.

<comment><USER3> I had a fiddle with some Estimotes for a research project last year. Managed to get some fairly inaccurate indoor location tracking going on Android using 4 beacons and some fudged trilateration functions, then did some cool location-based things with Philips Hue bulbs. Was a blast!

Keep up the good work, can't wait for the Android Indoor SDK! (I appreciate that it's more effort due to differences in device hardware, etc)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Glad you experimented with beacons and Hue. There is already several apps that combine beacons with Hue: [https://vimeo.com/91335074](https://vimeo.com/91335074)

When it comes to Android we have just released an update to our main Android SDK and app (you can read more here: [http://blog.estimote.com/post/118119809840/announcing-an- upd...](http://blog.estimote.com/post/118119809840/announcing-an-update-to- the-estimote-android-sdk))

We plan to catch up with other SDKs for Android as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Do you use time of arrival techniques? What strategy do you use to overcome indoor multi-path conditions? Are there more detailed implementation notes somewhere?

Reading the documentation, I agree that you're abstracting away the "nitty- gritty" of location-finding, but I think it'd be really helpful to see where measurement errors might be hiding via an open description of the computational model used, even if (or especially if) it's very simple. It would give me more confidence as a user and allow me to be more forgiving if there were reasonable discrepancies in measurements.

Looks really cool! I think I'd like to try this and write about my experiences.

<comment><AUTHOR> We use combination of many different techniques incorporated into our SDK, so there is no one specific formula - think more about it as a "driver" for the physical-location and communication device (e.g. iPhone).

The major role is played by beacons. Since we manufacture them we have a full control of the entire physics behind the signal propagation. You can read more here about it: [http://blog.estimote.com/post/106913675010/how-do-beacons- wo...](http://blog.estimote.com/post/106913675010/how-do-beacons-work-the- physics-of-beacon-tech)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> For the average iPhone-toting person whose location is the one being plotted, what does their phone have to be set to in order for this to work? Do they have to have a specific app installed? Does Bluetooth merely have to be turned on? What about "Bluetooth turned on, but not visible to unpaired devices"? Might anyone be able to point out the direction to information of the sort?

I see some information here [0], but I am not sure how this relates to common settings like "Bluetooth off", "Bluetooth on and visible", and "Bluetooth on but invisible to unknown devices."

[http://blog.estimote.com/post/106913675010/how-do-beacons- wo...](http://blog.estimote.com/post/106913675010/how-do-beacons-work-the- physics-of-beacon-tech)

<comment><USER6> You just need bluetooth on. I don't believe the iPhone provides a distinct option for Bluetooth-On Visible vs Invisible.

<comment><USER7> Im guessing (based on recently using Estimote beacons in a project) that this relies on inexpensive beacons and most of what happens is in the app. The beacons don't talk to the cloud service - the app does. I think the app listens for the beacons which are sending sending RSSI (received signal strength indication) information as well as heir unique id, and the cloud service is estimating your distances from 3 or 4 beacons and solving to get a position then sending that back to the app. (It's probable the app could do that itself, but Estimote might have some "secret sauce" that makes their cloud-reliant solution better - perhaps by aggregating data about the Bluetooth reception quality on a per model or device basis and updating their position estimate algorithms in real time. If I wanted to implement something like this without leaking user location data to Estimote/The NSA, I'd probably try using rough models in-app (without sending the beacon data anywhere) and using accelerometer/gyro data to provide additional dead reckoning input.

Note though - much of the same tricks can be pulled with 2.4gHz capable SDRs passively listening for wifi/bluetooth (and even cellular) transmission from your phone. This is almost certainly being used to track you in shopping malls already, and I'd be quite surprised to head it's not also deployed in airports, military contractor campuses, and large privacy invasive corporations - as well as wherever various three letter agencies of overreaching law enforcement want it.

<comment><USER5> Thanks for the insight. Might you be able to guess how the Bluetooth on/off/on and visible settings work for visibility for passive listening? If my phone is linked/paired with my Bluetooth headset but not visible to other devices, is it still noticeable by the passive listening devices?

From what I understand with WiFi and Google Location Services, if you have WiFi "on but not connected", your phone is regularly sending out messages to any router that will listen saying "Are you SSID x, y, z, a...etc.?" Android phones record this information, i.e., SSIDs pinged and your coarse location, and report this back to the mothership so as to improve the estimated position of all of these SSIDs/router MAC addresses. Theoretically, if I understand what you're saying, is that there could be hardware devices that require no input from the user: the routers themselves would be noting who (i.e. which phones/MAC addresses) ping them asking for which SSIDs and record those as they progress through a space. Put enough routers in a space and you can triangulate based on RSSI....is that the basic idea?

<comment><USER7> Yep.

Wifi is easy - any wifi module that can be put into "monitor mode" will let you listen in for SSID probes. Apple have started randomising the MAC address the device uses for those probes in iOS8, which is a start, but there's often a close-to-unique fingerprint that you still get from the set of SSID's that are probed for (how many people do you suppose probe for "Company $A Staff Wifi, Shopping Mall $B free wifi, Cafe's $C $D and $E free wifi, and person $F home wifi") - there's also a trick that I think I heard WifiPineapple uses of listening for common SSID probed (McDonald Free Wifi, Netgear, etc), then responding as that base station - then getting the real MAC address during the negotiation phase).

BlueTooth is only a little more difficult - you only need a hundred or so dollars to start playing there though: [http://ubertooth.sourceforge.net/](http://ubertooth.sourceforge.net/) or [https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki/HackRF- One](https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki/HackRF-One) will both let you see BlueTooth radio traffic - it's somewhat harder to dig into their encrypted traffic, but seeing and measuring the signal strength is easy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Would the result be easily distorted by e.g. (human) bodies standing in- between, or certain materials (e.g. installing it in an art exhibition, but certain art installations use certain materials that can distort the beacon measurement)?

<comment><AUTHOR> It very much depends on the number of people and obstacles (glass, metal).

The best approach would be to put more beacons in that "interfering" areas.

If beacons are installed high enough, so there is always a line-of-sight between beacon and phone it should work fine in the crowded space.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> How does this compare to indoors location startup from 15 years back (or so?), Ekahau? [http://www.ekahau.com/](http://www.ekahau.com/)

<comment><USER10> As I understand it, Estimote's main technical selling point is that it uses Bluetooth LE. So the "beacons" can be made cheap and low-power, plus you get out-of-the-box compatibility with modern smartphones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This intensity-based approach is probably suitable for deciding what ad to display as someone moves around a store. It's not going to make VR headsets work indoors.

At 1M, this would become much more useful. Then they could tell which aisle of a store you're in, and approximately what shelf section. At 4M, it's more like knowing what department in a department store. At 1M, for a museum system, they could tell what object you're looking at and give you the audio for it.

</comment><comment><USER12> There are a ton of other competing technologies. We have been to the Microsoft Indoor Localization Competition and saw the estimote there too:

[http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/events/indoorloccompetit...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/events/indoorloccompetition2015/)

The 4 meter precision is in the middle of the pack.

</comment><comment><USER13> Why not do this [1] and not have to worrie about other hardware? Everyone has a cell phone and it would end up more accurate.

[1] [http://communityhealthmaps.nlm.nih.gov/2014/07/07/how- accura...](http://communityhealthmaps.nlm.nih.gov/2014/07/07/how-accurate-is- the-gps-on-my-smart-phone-part-2/)

</comment><comment><USER14> These are very cool, but unfortunately the last time I tried using BLE (specifically Estimote beacons with their sdk) in an Android app the interference with wifi made the experience unbearable. Presumably not all chipsets have the problem, but every single one I tested had trouble.

<comment><USER15> From my experience, this usually happens with the older/cheaper Android devices that use a combined BT+WiFi radio/chipset (Nexus 4, Galaxy S3 etc.)

Fortunately, the Android hardware is getting better and better, e.g. I've noticed no such problems on Nexus 5 or Galaxy Edge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Is there any commercially sold solution for this to allow my phone to track me through my home, preferably a solution that I can IFTTT or similar to?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not yet, but you can setup beacons at home as well and check the accuracy - just tried that: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBERi7Lf3c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtBERi7Lf3c)

Once you calibrate your room you can make it a public room and other could build apps on top of it.

<comment><USER16> Seems to be iOS only, unfortunately.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> 4m? Hrrm. That's close enough for a drone strike...

</comment><comment><USER18> Highly recommended stuff.</comment>


Wealthy earn it all before 40, or not at all - <AUTHOR> http://www.afr.com/p/markets/wealthy_earn_it_all_before_or_not_zLYz6222fr4eFKcoyvmRDM

<comment><USER2> Hmm, I'd be curious if there were correlation between first decades wages and the family economic background. i.e. could this be the narrowing of economic mobility as seen from another angle?

<comment><AUTHOR> It would be interesting to see. Perhaps because most people are not entrepreneurs but work in a skill they learned in early adulthood, mobility is restricted.

The chance to pay for college and the genes to have the brains to study are certainly heritable.

<comment><USER2> Well connected parents also lead to greater business/work opportunities. Even putting nepotism type deals aside, the right introductions can help tremendously. Case in point Microsoft...</comment></comment></comment>


TLS over Tor - <AUTHOR> https://blog.ian.sh/2014/10/31/tls-over-tor/

<comment><USER2> This is sort of obvious. Facebook's key is signed by a well-known CA. Anyone can make a cert for anything, but that doesn't mean that browsers will recognize it as being "valid".

The author fails to mention how this any more "broken" than TLS on anything else.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a valid certificate issued by GlobalSign, parse it yourself (the link is in the post)

(well, now revoked, but still...)</comment></comment>


Bill Gates now uses an Android phone - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/26/16365424/bill-gates-android-phone-switch <comment><USER2> I really admire Mr. Gates for many things, but banning Apple products in his house is not one of them.

</comment><comment><USER3> For what it's worth, although I don't think any new hardware has produced in some time, I am still getting regular updates (~monthly?) on my Windows phone.

</comment><comment><USER4> Samsung hardware is awesome, and Android OS is not too bad either, if you manage to get rid of all the privacy invasive Google apps.

<comment><USER5> You can do what I do with my phones. Root it and install a AOSP based rom and skip flashing the Gapps packages. For app store you can use F-Droid and Yalp. Most of the Google apps have pretty usable FOSS alternatives.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Bill doesn't own a huge amount of MS stock any more.

<comment><USER4> Define huge. He still owns something like 2.5% of MSFT according to Forbes.

<comment><USER7> Down to 1.3%

[http://www.zdnet.com/article/bill-gates-stake-in- microsoft-i...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/bill-gates-stake-in-microsoft-is- now-just-1-3-percent/)</comment></comment></comment>


Cheap smartphones are about to change everything - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2014/05/cheap-smartphones <comment><USER2>
      And then there's dual SIM (or even quad SIM). It's a feature
      that's really popular in Asia and Latin America where people
      might use one network for a local call and another for an
      international one. That's largely something MediaTek drove,
      but now it's in the Moto E, which also has a feature called
      SmartCalling to help people set up and swap between SIM
      preferences and automatically configure access point names.

[https://bbot.org/blog/archives/2013/10/28/programmatically_a...](https://bbot.org/blog/archives/2013/10/28/programmatically_advertising_mobile_bandwidth_cost_a_proposal/)

      You know what would be cool? If your phone knew how much
      bandwidth from each carrier cost, and could switch between
      them on the fly, depending on which one was cheapest, like a
      multi-SIM phone that didn't suck.

<comment><USER3> Dual SIM is such a cool feature and so common in asia that not having it in Western markets almost seems like a conspiracy.

Work/private phone. Burner. Try out a new network. Add a local SIM when traveling.

<comment><USER4> Not having it on Western markets? Are you sure you're not confusing US with Western? Here in our very western European country they're common and often advertised. Both my previous phone (crappy Samsung) as well as my current cheap Android were dual sim.

<comment><USER5> What country in western Europe ? Never heard about anyone talking about a dual-sim telephones in France. But there is not much point of having two subscription to two companies that prices are aligned.

<comment><USER4> Portugal. The reason I have one is because I have a company-issued SIM card, besides my personal one. But here prices are not actually aligned, since some providers have free, unlimited calls between members of the same plan, but not between members of different providers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Often, the word 'cheap' carries a negative connotation. Talking specifically about Moto G & Moto E, I'd say they are phones that are priced correctly. Before we start talking about lack of features or compromises, just look at how much they charge for incremental memory. Just $20 for 8GB extra. Smartphones makers are slowly accepting commodity pricing and I hope they realize that skinning Android isn't always a value add.

Cool new features like fingerprint reader sure catch the fancy of those waiting to upgrade their phone. But expecting to price the phone at more than twice what they are worth when you add an evolutionary feature may not work for too long. The difference in build quality between Android & iOS phones is way smaller than Windows & Mac laptops.

<comment><USER7> "But expecting to price the phone at more than twice what they are worth "

Apple has a gross margin of 39%, which is pretty good, but presuming the minimum gross margin an electronics manufacturer requires for a sustainable business is 20% - It's the difference between charging $560 for a $400 BOM vs $480.

Even if you don't value Apple's Operating System, Ecosystem of Developers, content, support, quality, design - let's say that all has absolutely zero value - Apple is still charging about 16% more than what their phones are "worth."

Where Apple really cleans up is in the 32/64 GB iPhones - They really take their customers to the cleaners for the extra 16/48 GB of flash ($100 and $200 respectively)

<comment><USER6> They are making money from the ecosystem of developers & content separately. Why should it be counted in the price of the phone? Secondly, I didn't discount the quality/design from the phone price.

Apple doesn't just overcharge for additional flash, they overcharge at every possible item in your phone. Example : $30 cables/connectors/chargers. On top of that, they sell you last years model at a premium too. Up until a few months, they were selling iPad 2 at some ridiculous price. The BOM cost goes down significantly with new rev of components coming out, be it the camera module, the previous generation app processor, the foundry charges, the low res LCD,...

<comment><USER8> "Example : $30 cables/connectors/chargers."

When it comes to chargers, you really do get what you pay for. See: [http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab- ap...](http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple- is.html)

Note that the HP Touchpad charger is rated slightly higher than Apple's charger, but it's not cheap either. Right now Amazon lists the HP charger for $17.99 and the Apple 12w iPad charger for $19.00. Not much difference in price.

The $2.00 chargers are gambling with your device (and maybe even your life).

<comment><USER6> I knew someone was going to post that link. There's no price justification in that link other than saying $2 chargers are bad & so are $19 ones. So, does that mean $30 is the price point. Ofcourse not.

You are missing the point. I'm not saying $2 chargers are the right price. I'm saying, Apple overprices everything, include headphone cables, phone cases and what not. Their retail price is BOM + Retail_Markup + R&D + Apple_Markup. That last component is what I'm talking about.

<comment><USER8> I provided evidence.

You provided none other than your opinion.

Kindly provide a link to a charger of comparable quality to Apple's that costs significantly less than the $19 you can buy one for on Amazon.

<comment><USER6> The link that you posted is an excellent comparison BUT no evidence that "$30" is the right price point for a good charger. The iPhone charger has poor rating on current sag. The ipad charger has poor rating on voltage sag.

<comment><USER9> Actually, the Apple chargers in that link displayed the expected behavior for the USB 2.0 "extended power" (can't think of the actual title) specification. The author has a fancy oscilloscope, but that doesn't mean he/she knows everything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I really like the Moto-G, and the Moto E looks like a solid phone as well. I'm interested to watch what it does to the App market, that much more volume and even a small fraction of a huge market, is a worthwhile thing.

The other thing I'm wondering about is Apple's response, if any.

<comment><USER11> As an app developer I can tell you that the problem is that these people don't spend money (on software). So even though there are now many more android users than iOS ones (world wide) it's still not a very lucrative market.

<comment><USER3> I wonder what percentage of app developers are really that sensitive to app _sales_. Ad-supported and underpants gnome supported seem to be bigger categories.

Users directly paying for mobile apps is like users directly paying for web apps, a smallish part of the overall game.

IMO, the bones of the business case (beyond the sheer number of these devices) is here:

" _for a vast number of people in a vast number of countries, the cheap handset will be the first screen, and the only screen._ "

If you want to show these people what movies are playing, sell them flights, let them share videos, shop online, etc. Targeting these "low end" machines is the way to do it.

App sales are a small part of the overall picture.

<comment><USER12> > underpants gnome supported

What does this mean?

<comment><USER13> I'm guessing this means apps from companies without any business model at all that are propped up entirely by VCs.

<comment><USER3> I meant all companies for which the relationship between making software and making money is complicated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _Both are based on a platform from MediaTek, a Taiwanese giant you 've never heard of. It makes white label handsets that operators can customize for local markets._

Technically this isn't the case; MTK don't make handsets themselves, they're fabless and only provide reference designs based on their chipsets. It's the innumerable Chinese OEMs that use these reference designs to make handsets. (See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaTek#.282013-present.29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaTek#.282013-present.29) for a non-exhaustive list of smartphones that contain them.) Because it's a reference design, most of them have very similar features, since OEMs don't have to expend much effort to add features themselves. In fact I'd say it's unusual to _not_ have e.g. dual-SIM, expandable storage, FM radio, or removable battery in a MTK smartphone; they're pretty much standard. The variation between models is mostly in ROM/RAM, camera and screen sizes, and case styling (there are models with small screens but the fastest SoC, for example.) Also, the MT6589 platform does _not_ have 4G, it's 3G.

MTK is certainly relatively unknown in North America but in Asia the situation is very different - you'll find far more mention and phones using them, hardware-level repair/modding information is common, and they also cost significantly less than the flagships from Samsung, LG, and the other big companies.

Edit: looks like Wired covered this a year ago: [http://www.wired.com/2013/02/mediatek/](http://www.wired.com/2013/02/mediatek/)

(I bought a generic 5" MT6589 smartphone in China and have been quite satisfied with it.)

<comment><USER15> > Also, the MT6589 platform does not have 4G, it's 3G.

The confusion probably comes from the fact that US carriers were branding HSDPA as "4G" to fool the US public that they were keeping up with the rest of the world.

<comment><USER16> If by that you mean T-Mobile, sure.

The US has actually been on the leading edge of LTE deployment. Compare the map [1] to [2]. Then take a look back at 2012 to see how far along the US was even in 2012 (relatively far) [3] [4]. Then check out a more recent look (less than a year ago) [5].

And that's not counting WiMax, for whatever it's worth.

[1] [http://lazure2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gsa-map- worldwide...](http://lazure2.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gsa-map-worldwide- lte-network-commitments-launches-and-trials-6-july-2011.jpg) [2] [http://www.4g.de/wp- content/uploads/2014/02/GSA_LTE_MAP.jpg](http://www.4g.de/wp- content/uploads/2014/02/GSA_LTE_MAP.jpg) [3] [http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/special-reports/lte- cover...](http://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/special-reports/lte-coverage- targets-and-subscriber-numbers) [4] [http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/111512-lte-4g-264316.h...](http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/111512-lte-4g-264316.html) ("The U.S. is one of the fastest-growing 4G markets in the world, thanks to aggressive LTE deployments by Verizon Wireless and AT&T Wireless") [5] [http://gigaom.com/2013/09/20/mapping-out-the-worlds-lte- cove...](http://gigaom.com/2013/09/20/mapping-out-the-worlds-lte-coverage-its- in-fewer-places-than-you-think/)

<comment><USER15> > If by that you mean T-Mobile, sure.

[http://tasel.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/lte-hsdpa-dc-hsdpa- exp...](http://tasel.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/lte-hsdpa-dc-hsdpa-explain-this- alphbet-soup-of-4g-to-me/)

> after Verizon and Sprint started using setting up their LTE networks and > touting speeds of up to 14.4, AT&T started to sat that their HSPA+ networks > also "4G"

They even got Apple to make the iPhone show 4G in the status bar when you were on HSDPA.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Problem is, too many cheap phones are still shipping with Android 2.3 because the manufacturers just don't care.

Android 4.4 is a boon to cheap phone manufacturers because of low memory mode while retaining all the modern features. A $99 phone that isn't shit that runs Android 4.4 and has BLE would enable so much stuff that the rest of us take for granted.

<comment><USER18> 2.3 stopped months ago. 4.0 is the current min (more like 4.2).

<comment><USER19> Entry-level Android phones running 2.3 are sadly still common:

[http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung- galax...](http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung- galaxy-y/handset)

[http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung- galax...](http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung-galaxy- ace/handset)

[http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung- galax...](http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/phone/samsung/samsung-galaxy-ace-2)

[http://www.tesco.com/direct/virgin-media-alcatel-one- touch-t...](http://www.tesco.com/direct/virgin-media-alcatel-one-touch-tpop- black/619-7823.prd)

[http://www.tesco.com/direct/t-mobile-samsung-galaxy- pocket-n...](http://www.tesco.com/direct/t-mobile-samsung-galaxy-pocket-neo- grey/290-7235.prd)

The Galaxy Ace range is pretty popular here, too.

There are also a slew of super-cheap chinese phones which come with 2.3 -- check out aliexpress.

<comment><USER18> The first 3 Samsung phones you list were all released 2-3 years ago. The last 2 were both released over a year ago (Jan / Apr 2013).

They're not new models being release with the old OS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> My last phone was my first smartphone. It cost $80 and ran Android 4.0 very poorly with pauses and crashes.

My current one runs Android 4.1 and cost $60. It runs smoothly enough that I have no pressing reason to upgrade in the near future; but when I do I expect to get even more for less.

These are both Virgin Mobile pre-paid phones.

</comment><comment><USER21> I have a Nexus 4 and my next phone is also probably going to be an Android phone but my shopping list now comes down to how well it takes a photo (N4 is horrible) and if it gets reasonable OS updates.

I can now get this for around £100.

</comment><comment><USER22> Cheap phones really are capable these days. I just got a 2nd hand Lumia 520 for ZAR1000 (about $100) and it can do everything my much more expensive iPhone 5 can. It's good enough to be my primary phone which is pretty amazing. Even has wifi internet tethering. Windows Phone 8.1 is a solid OS. The Lumia 630 with dual sim looks very appealing to me as soon as it's available.

<comment><USER23> Off topic, but I see you're in SA, I'll be living there for a year or two soon, I'd be really interested to get your perspective on the state of the technological landscape over there, things like ISPs, getting new electronics, tech jobs etc.

<comment><USER24> ZAR caught my attention as well. I'm an expat in SA, based in Cape Town. Feel free to get in touch - firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Phone for $130 is not cheap. Perhaps the title should be "The dusk of expensive smartphones".

<comment><USER6> I agree with what you are implying, maybe it just came across as negative to whoever downvoted this. For devices that you upgrade every year or two, $130 (free with subsidy) is a good price. It feels cheap because Apple etc. have set the bar too high (on pricing).

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Cheap or expensive, it is one-time cost. The recurring cost of cellphones are ridiculously expensive.

</comment><comment><USER27> the wired article gets one thing absolutely right - the excitement has gone out of the high-end smartphone market, but is palpably there in this one. ubiquitous cheap devices spreading everywhere and getting smarter and smarter is a lot closer to the world envisioned by gibson, sterling et al - the high end of the market has become more like a shopping mall than a cyberpunk bazaar.

</comment><comment><USER28> "About to change everything" \- this title is a few years too late.

</comment><comment><USER29> We need to stop calling them "smartphones" and call them what they really are - "personal computers." The previous personal computer is now a "work computer."

A smartphone's phone capability is now a small facet of its growing capabilities.

<comment><USER30> Most smartphones are much more restricted than personal computers are.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I had to write code for Androids, and so I 'used' them quite a bit while testing. To this day, every time I have to use an Android phone, I want to claw my eyes out, mainly over the lousy touch response, and somewhat-stupider UI. I fully understand they're still good iPhone knock-offs and more than adequate for many. But as someone who now uses my phone as my primary computer (and for me iOS is now only just barely adequate for this), I honestly don't know how y'all do it.

<comment><USER16> To give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not merely trolling: what handset(s) did you use?

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Cheap smartphones are going to change "everything?" HN still has a wired.com problem. I flag pretty much every single wired.com article that pops up past the new page. I really think wired.com is gaming the system they pop up so often.

<comment><USER33> That sounds like you are abusing flag. Most Wired articles are written well enough, even if written for a more general audience.</comment></comment>


Fast CNN Tuning with AWS GPU Instances and SigOpt - <AUTHOR> https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/ai/fast-cnn-tuning-with-aws-gpu-instances-and-sigopt/ <comment><AUTHOR> I'm one of the co-authors of this post and co-founders of SigOpt (YC W15). I'm happy to answer any questions about the post. You can find the code to replicate everything here [1]. More info on the research behind SigOpt can be found here [2].

[1]: [https://github.com/sigopt/sigopt-examples/tree/master/dnn- tu...](https://github.com/sigopt/sigopt-examples/tree/master/dnn-tuning- nvidia-mxnet)

[2]: [https://sigopt.com/research](https://sigopt.com/research)</comment>


A Wayback Machine for Source Code - <AUTHOR> https://undark.org/article/software-heritage-source-code-archive/ <comment><AUTHOR> The actual archive, released to the public in coming weeks: [https://www.softwareheritage.org/](https://www.softwareheritage.org/)

</comment><comment><USER2> Software Heritage is doing great things, and will be central to current efforts in research software sustainability, software citation, and most of all reproducible research!</comment>


Google StreetView in UK goes live  - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7952317.stm

<comment><USER2> Maybe they can ask for all of the CCTV cameras to contribute to google so not only do you have street view but you have building view.

</comment><comment><USER3> The user interface isn't very clear. There is no labelled link as you get for satellite/map/terrain and even hovering over the little pegman doesn't bring up a tool tip letting you know what it does when streetview is available. You only get a tooltip when streetview isn't available and the pegman is greyed out. Small changes could definitely make it better.

The route selection also seems a little odd. For example nothing available for Princes Street in Edinburgh but some of the most obscure backstreets are covered.

Having said that the odd route selection did mean I was able to locate my car so it's not all bad.

<comment><USER4> Looking at streets in London that are not included I wondered whether they're not included for security reasons. Maybe there are government buildings on Princes Street that the authorities don't want "them" to have pictures of..

<comment><USER5> In general it appears that it's just roads that aren't publicly accessible which one can't go down. It's not just Downing Street, for example, but a bunch of pedestrianised places, presumably for the obvious reason that the Street View car couldn't go down them.

<comment><USER3> Parts of Princes Street are accessible to only buses and taxis but there are also parts which are universally accessible which aren't covered.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Street view is also live in the Netherlands today: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Edam, & Groningen are all I can find (the last two being a bit odd to begin with).

Still waiting on "Canal View" :)

<comment><USER7> I don't get Groningen either, but I'm not complaining. I can see my house! The city of Groningen tends to lobby for these things quite a bit though I can't see Google being influenced by these things.

As an aside, the pictures are from September last year as far as I can tell.

<comment><USER6> I wonder how many other Hackers are in NL?

I've recently moved here from SF bay area and am looking for good networking opportunities with other techies. Any fun gatherings you know of?</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: A fun chore and routine management app for children - <AUTHOR> https://joonapp.io/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN! We made Joon with the goal of making chores and doing other to-dos fun for children. Basically, the parent assigns and reviews tasks (that we call quests). When the child completes them, they get coins and experience points that allow them to buy items in-game and level up their characters.

Currently we are in beta and would love to hear any feedback!</comment>


AskHN : "Don't judge them by their website" - <AUTHOR>

I was reading http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1145343 when something hit me : "don't judge them by their website" (talking about http://bowker.com/).
I was thinking about how people here often reject sites based of their look (it happened to me twice) but maybe are passing beside great services.
I was thinking about services I use and couldn't live without and if I judged them by their websites, I would have never given them a penny.
DIDWW : http://www.didww.com
PrgMr : http://www.prgmr.com
Callcentric : http://www.callcentric.com
TarSnap : http://www.tarsnap.com/
Lyrics (this one is from me ;) :
http://lyrics.azankatech.com
Do you know other interesting sites that we shouldn't judge by their website? <comment><USER2> With clickable links:

(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1145343>)

(<http://bowker.com>)

DIDWW: <http://www.didww.com>

PrgMr: <http://www.prgmr.com>

Callcentric: <http://www.callcentric.com>

TarSnap: <http://www.tarsnap.com/>

Lyrics (this one is from me ;): <http://lyrics.azankatech.com>

</comment><comment><USER3> <http://www.indianrail.gov.in/></comment>


North Colorado May be the 51st State - <AUTHOR> http://colistings.com/blog/posts/3/north-colorado-may-be-the-51st-state

<comment><USER2> Just what we need--another two senators and one representative to speak for high, dry, lightly populated territory.

</comment><comment><USER3> About as likely to happen as the Texas secession.</comment>


Apple Terms and Conditions Bug - <AUTHOR> I've been Apple user since the first iPod came out. Unfortunately I'm starting to realize that this brand is not what it used to be anymore.
The reason that brought me to this conclusion besides many bugs that I've been experiencing in the latest version of iOS and OS X is that I cannot download any app from the App Store without being able to accept their updated Terms & Conditions.
How is it possible that a bug like this happens to a company like Apple? I have no idea, but imagine this:
When you need the phone that costs 1000 USD the most -- while traveling to retrieve a train ticket from the App Store, Apple won't let you download the app because of the bug.
I tried signing out of the app store (and overwhelming my phone with an unnecessary iCloud sync), using Wifi, restarting the phone... nothing helps.
Is anyone else feeling the same? I'm starting to think that this is my last iPhone. <comment><USER2> What is the bug exactly? Have you tried scrolling to the end of the license agreement? In some Apple flows that is necessary to trigger the enabled state of the 'Accept' button.

</comment><comment><USER3> Haha this is a bit of an extreme reaction. I experienced the bug and yes, it's frustrating. Though I don't understand the mentality that "because I paid $X for this, I shouldn't experience Y". Bugs happen in large and small companies. People seem to forget that the device on their desk or in their pocket is an absolute marvel of technology and the fact it works at all is a minor miracle.

</comment><comment><USER4> Just to clarify, you're unable to Accept the Ts&Cs and unable to use basic functionality until you do?

</comment><comment><USER5> Did you take it to Apple Store? This looks like a very specific issue. Do you have any reason to believe that this is widespread?</comment>


The Internet is just a CIA project, Vladimir Putin says of online communities - <AUTHOR> http://ww2.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/24/the-internet-is-just-a-cia-project-vladimir-putin-says-of-online-communities

<comment><USER2> I saw this posted on reddit a couple of days ago. The top comment, I recollect, was.

"If so, I love you CIA, you have changed my life. Here, have my data..."</comment>


YAML powered maintainable web resume in Jekyll - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/aviaryan/resume <comment><USER2> If it meets the guidelines, this might make a good "Show HN".

Guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)</comment>


Ask HN: Startup School Videos? - <AUTHOR>

Was the web cast recorded and if so has it or will it be posted somewhere? I missed parts of it.<p>Thanks! <comment><USER2> They seem to put it up after the event on the startup school website - [http://startupschool.org/2012/](http://startupschool.org/2012/).

The only one I found (a cam) is of the CodeCombat guys at office hours - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ABuvR...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ABuvRv4Vv3s)</comment>


Coffee's Dirty Little Secret - <AUTHOR> http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-18/coffees-dirty-little-secret/ <comment><USER2> I'll give it a go. I'm up for pretty much anything involving coffee... except sugar.</comment>


The UK's virus status may be better than we think - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53656852 <comment><AUTHOR> I've used the headline as shown in the Health section. The page currently has it as a question: "Coronavirus: Is the UK in a better position than we think?"</comment>


Solar Foundation expects 10% job growth in 2017 despite coal-focused government - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/business/2017/02/solar-foundation-expects-10-job-growth-in-2017-despite-coal-focused-government/ <comment><USER2> This is good news; it sounds like solar has really come into its own.

I'm particularly intrigued by how utilities are turning to solar for price stability. It makes sense, since oil has had bitcoin-level price volatility over the last two years, but it's certainly not what you think when you think solar -- as the article points out.</comment>


Study suggests that fresh asphalt is a significant source of air pollution - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/09/it-s-not-just-cars-make-pollution-it-s-roads-they-drive-too <comment><USER2> Here is the Yale press release: [https://news.yale.edu/2020/09/02/asphalt- adds-air-pollution-...](https://news.yale.edu/2020/09/02/asphalt-adds-air- pollution-especially-hot-sunny-days)

And the paper: [https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabb9785](https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabb9785)

I'd also like to point out that road wear is approximately proportional to the cube (^3) of the weight per axle on a vehicle, so cars are probably responsible for a minority of this pollution.

*edit: some are pointing out that the relevant road wear is proportional to the 4th power of vehicle weight, see the comments below for details.

<comment><USER3> > I'd also like to point out that road wear is approximately proportional to > the cube (^3) of the weight per axle on a vehicle, so cars are probably > responsible for a minority of this pollution.

Could you clarify that a bit? Do you mean that the friction of the tires on the road releases nasty emissions?

<comment><USER4> No, heavy trucks wear out the road significantly more than cars and result in asphalt having to be replaced more frequently.

This is another case where the gas tax isn't really adequate for funding road issues due to the disproportional increase in costs to the increase in fuel usage by trucks. All of the light vehicle drivers subsidize the heavy trucks in all mileage/fuel based tax schemes.

<comment><USER5> Sounds like we need to expand our rail capacity. Our current rail freight capacity is near 100%.

<comment><USER6> Why not tax each mode of transportation proportionately to their true cost, and let the market decide?

<comment><USER7> Because there is no "true cost" and it's all subjective.

You can ratchet up the tax on heavy trucks because "muh road wear" but then you'll have a world where everything is delivered in small trucks and there will be problems with that. At the end of the day it comes down to a subjective question of which problems get which priority.

<comment><USER8> or transportation of goods like food become more expensive so people rely on their local farmers instead of getting avacados shipped in from the moon

<comment><USER9> I agree, but none of this is remotely just or fair without a minimum wage that is a living wage. And what that is needs to be reassessed if policies change the cost of living.

<comment><USER8> that's life - frank sinatra

<comment><USER10> Good thing it's something totally within our power to change. - Probably Also Frank Sinatra

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Any cyclist and most road workers I expect are saying, "no shit, Sherlock" right about now. That stuff reeks. It's awful. And we lay it a mile at a time.

<comment><USER12> The problem is that there isn't much of an alternative.

Municipalities have limited funds for roads. And the roads need to be of a certain quality standard, usually set at levels above the municipality. Safety, speed, cost, etc. all must be factored in.

Concrete will do the job, but it's expensive, takes time, and is climate variable. You could use dirt, but then safety and speed are lessened. Wood is possible, but it'll need to be replaced a lot. Gravel is also used, but then road capacity is diminished.

Asphalt is in a bit of a sweet spot in terms of many variables.

Grady of _Practical Engineering_ on YT has a good series on roads here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIK6I6Q58Ec&list=PLTZM4MrZKf...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIK6I6Q58Ec&list=PLTZM4MrZKfW8JLYNhJe2uWNa0eIfent3B)

<comment><USER13> There is an alternative, less roads. Make things denser, make it so people don't have to travel as far, and you won't need to lay so much new asphalt.

<comment><USER14> For some reason most of my peer group think the coming age of remote work is a great excuse to concrete over the rural parts of my country.

<comment><USER13> Wouldn't it be the opposite? Less commuting means less roads are needed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> An underlooked quality of Asphalt is that it is the most recycled material on earth. Asphalt can be, and generally is, made of old asphalt.

<comment><USER16> That's interesting. I wonder what goes into reusing old asphalt (i.e. what new chemicals need to be added/removed in order to make old asphalt pliable or whatever the term is to lay it again).

<comment><USER17> It isn't just the asphalt that is recycled but many other products are recycled into it as well, shingles, tires, and even glass, can all end up into it.

what they take off the road can be ground and used on site for a layer but mostly its carted off and ground to the same size as the original aggregate and combined into new. since the binding material is still present it reduces the need for more oil byproducts

<comment><USER18> The term describing this is: RAP (Recycled Asphalt Pavement).

[https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/infrastructur...](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/infrastructure/pavements/11021/11021.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Having worked in road construction, I can say that the amount of diesel fuel that gets sprayed all over the thing during rolling/compaction is abject. At least in Canada, if you spill a liter of anything on the ground you're supposed to file paperwork, contain it, maybe have the environment crew inspect it... Meanwhile they send 5 labourers with no education and 100 liters of diesel fuel to spray all over the ground.

<comment><USER20> Why is diesel sprayed on the ground?

<comment><USER19> I may not be explaining this well... But it's very effective at dissolving or softening asphalt, and so it's used to compact the material and finish it into a smooth surface for final rolling/compaction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'll preface by saying I'm not trying to downplay cars or the roads.. but doesn't almost everything we consume make pollution in a non-negligible quantity? e.g. when cars are manufactured, the plastics we use, livestock, etc. It's a multifaceted problem that won't be fixed by changing one thing like cars or the roads.

<comment><USER22> All money spent causes pollution if you trace it back far enough. As a first approximation, environmental impact is directly proportional to cost.

<comment><USER23> That's an oversimplification, if nothing else because you can spend money to save money. Likewise you can make a monetary expenditure to prevent other more environmentally costly expenditures.

<comment><USER24> It's not a bad approximation. More flights, bigger houses, bigger cars, more toys, faster computers. They all cost more and all have a bigger environmental impact. There are a few things where spending will decrease your emissions, loft insulation, possibly replacing your petrol car with an EV, definitely replacing it with an e-bike.

Even if there are savings made what do people do with their reduced energy costs? Mostly buy more products/services.

<comment><USER23> To some extent yes, but that is different from the claim, which is about "all money."

But also, you're neglecting things like cheaper parts tending to be worse for the environment. Comparatively expensive wood, for instance, would likely cause fewer problems than cheaper plastics. Plus, that's true by virtue of the cheaper parts breaking sooner and needing to be replaced. It's certainly not a universal that luxury goods are eco-friendly, but it is true that eco- friendliness is a factor that requires a premium to be paid for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> We should trust our noses a lot more. If it smells awful it's probably polluting!

<comment><USER26> Of course, this isn't always accurate, since sometimes things that smell good are not great either: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene). But it's often a good first guess.

<comment><USER25> Yea I've heard people say they like the smell of gas but I don't. It has a too sharp or burny scent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Pareto principle in action - remove the bulk of tailpipe particulate emissions, and the previously negligible other particulates take a larger share.

<comment><USER28> In typical ICE scenario tailpipe accounts only for a half of particulate emissions, another half comes from from brake, tyre and road wear.

[http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JR...](http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC89231/jrc89231-online%20final%20version%202.pdf)

<comment><USER29> Which reminds me of a video of Cody's Lab, where he refines precious metals out of roadside dust: [https://youtu.be/v5GPWJPLcHg](https://youtu.be/v5GPWJPLcHg)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Also, tire particulates are a large contributing factor to air pollution, much worse than what comes out of the tailpipe.

[https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations...](https://www.tiretechnologyinternational.com/news/regulations/pollution- from-tire-wear-1000-times-worse-than-exhaust-emissions.html)

<comment><USER31> Tire particulates are worse than _exhaust particulates_, not necessarily emissions, an important distinction. CO and CO2 are not counted as particulates.

<comment><USER29> Not to forget NOx emissions from diesel motors.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Lucky they found a use for the toxic waste from oil refineries by mixing it with sand and gravel and rolling it down on roads.

On the other hand, as vehicles go electric, there won't be any new asphalt to make roads for them to run on.

</comment><comment><USER33> It definitely seems rail might be lower polluting in this respect.

<comment><USER34> i wonder about the brake dust in not only cars but trains as well. maybe where trains don't decelerate much there is less pollution?

<comment><USER35> I'm not sure, but I think modern trains usually use electrical braking instead of friction.

<comment><USER36> As far as I know only rarely, and even those trains do have mechanical brakes too. Modern electric locomotives can do engine braking, but brake power needs to be applied everywhere on the train, so most of the train brakes mechanically. (And if you want to engine brake, the energy still needs to go _somewhere_ \- so you have additional complexity of feeding it back into the grid or you are limited by how much energy you can dump to heat)

Only (mostly high-speed) passenger trains with driven wheels everywhere can brake well only electrically for non-emergencies. Some also have additional eddy-current brakes that interact with the rails.

For the German high-speed trains they try to design the speed profiles so that they have to waste as little energy as possible by using the motors as generators and feeding it back to the grid. But they still have and use eddy- current and mechanical brakes too. (You can tell the difference if they are delayed: they brake later and more aggressively to make up time. And a full-on emergency stop is loud and smelly.)

<comment><USER29> This was part of the design behind the N700 bullet trains of Japan. They have motors in all trains in order to distribute weight and thus braking and acceleration ability evenly across the whole train. It reduces wear on all wheels and components but as you mentioned adds complexity in the overall aparatus. They brake at stations using mechanical brakes though if I am not mistaken, the sound is pretty hard to ignore!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> For those really curious about details of asphalt concrete construction on California state highways, check out Section 39 of the Caltrans specifications: [https://dot.ca.gov/programs/design/ccs-standard-plans-and- st...](https://dot.ca.gov/programs/design/ccs-standard-plans-and-standard- specifications)

These specifications end up being used by a lot of cities and counties in California as well.

</comment><comment><USER37> > Concrete creates greenhouse gas

I guess its time to also shame walkers and sidewalk bikers

<comment><USER38> The biggest con that we've bought as a society is the push towards personal responsibility in carbon emissions rather than addressing the bigger sources in large ships, energy production, materials manufacturing, etc.

<comment><USER39> Those bigger sources are created to serve the personal needs. glaring eg. Industrial animal farming

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Hot asphalt/bitumen is heated petroleum product.

Is there any petroleum product that is not unhealthy when you heat it up? Gasoline, kerosene ethylene, propylene, butene.... I can't think of anything?

</comment><comment><USER3> Asphalt driveways start out as very dark black, and then slowly fade to grey. They also start out as very smooth, but as they fade to grey they become more textured.

I wonder if there's a relation?

<comment><USER41> That applies to any asphalt road.

Basically that's the binding agent (which contains oil) wearing off the surface.

[https://www.quora.com/Why-do-roads-turn-grey-when-they- get-p...](https://www.quora.com/Why-do-roads-turn-grey-when-they-get-paved- black?share=1)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Time to start a new company up and invest heavily in it, VC backed, at scale, revolutionizing the industry. Let's call it AsphaltX.

<comment><USER43> You joke, but there are plenty of VC backed companies trying to revolutionize road surfaces. The most famous are the various companies trying to add solar panels to roads.

Of course Asphalt is pretty awesome on balance, so most of these startups fail spectacularly.

<comment><USER44> I was actually looking for the comment about the solar roadways in here. I know they are expensive up front, but can lead into charging stations to help offset their cost in the long run (if people are willing to go along with either state run charging stations or privatized roadways). The question is, have there been studies about their environmental impact over X amount of time? I think it was Sweden who put in a length of roadway to test their viability for use.

<comment><USER43> The idea in principle is solid, most roads are empty most of the time and just sit in the sun. But making a surface durable, keeping the it clean and transparent but also providing good grip in all weather conditions are all hard problems. Solutions to one of them often make the other two worse, and many attempts choose materials that fail spectacularly at all three when tested in the real world.

<comment><USER45> Maybe we just need to put those solar panels between train tracks, then? Still a lot of unused surface, can use the rails as conductors, easy to clean using a special car.

The downside is that it makes it hard to pour ballast. It also doesn't help at all for road surface (lower their cost or replace "polluting" asphalt).

<comment><USER26> > can use the rails as conductors

But then bad things happen if you touch them…

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Smells so good though.

</comment><comment><USER47> It's a super cool paper

</comment><comment><USER48> The roads near my house - [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/videodash.cms?autostart...](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/videodash.cms?autostart=1&msid=70948040&rlvideo=1052732854&fallBackMute=true&skipad=false)

<comment><USER49> Do not click: 30 second unskippable ad.

Link to the same footage on YouTube directly: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDDncs47ro](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NDDncs47ro)

<comment><USER48> Sorry. I use uBlock Origin.

I had linked to the video frame instead of the article. Clouldn't get direct video link.

Doesnt your link have ads too? Youtube?

<comment><USER50> Always gets me.. send people a link, with no idea there was ads. The worst was when i sent someone a link to an old tv show, and the page was full or porn ads unbeknownst to me.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Crafty Killer Whales Are Harassing Alaskan Fishing Boats - <AUTHOR> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/crafty-killer-whales-are-harassing-alaskan-fishing-boats-180963788/?no-ist <comment><USER3> I wonder if this isn't "harassment", exactly. It sounds like they've learned that they can collect a whole lot of fish for not much effort. The fact that doing so ruins the fishing is a side effect.

I heard about a similar thing with bears in Yosemite. They had a back-country steak fry. They had 700 steaks there. A couple of bears (mother and adolescent cub) showed up. The people scattered. The bears ignored the people, because they had found 700 steaks. They put the mother down, and transplanted the cub several hundred miles away. The next summer, the cub - now an adult - <USER2> up for the steak fry.

Those bears weren't trying to "harass" the steak fry. They didn't have anything against such a gathering. They just learned, "Hey, free food".</comment>


A/B Testing Funny Signs from Homeless People - <AUTHOR> http://bigthink.com/ideas/26664

<comment><USER2> Nice one.

</comment><comment><USER3> :)</comment>


Will a $4k Tax Credit for Travel Be in the Next Stimulus Package? - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/06/13/will-a-4000-tax-credit-for-travel-be-in-the-next-stimulus-package/ <comment><AUTHOR> It sounds ridiculous but it's probably a pretty good way to fire up air/hotel/restaurant/cab industries.

</comment><comment><USER2> But the government doesn't want people to travel.</comment>