Microsoft pledges $500M for affordable housing in Seattle area - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/technology/microsoft-affordable-housing-seattle.html <comment><USER2> Frankly, good. If the Eastside cities can't or won't step up with building more affordable housing and public services, then I'm glad Microsoft is willing to kick in its money. It's a shame that the counties and cities in the region, by and large, aren't willing to acknowledge that this is a regional problem but Microsoft putting up the money at least removes the "but we can't afford the taxes or find the money elsewhere" excuse.

This isn't the first time Microsoft has put its money where its mouth is for its community. They've done a lot for transit in the region, too.

I don't mind so much that they are studiously avoiding the region's most populated city. Not all of the affordable housing and public services needs to be concentrated solely in Seattle. The rest of the region should have these things, from mental health services to public health facilities to shelters to affordable housing. Concentrating them in Pioneer Square around the Union Gospel Ministry isn't the way to go.

<comment><USER3> I know this will sound very NIMBY, but while I believe Eastside cities should contribute municipal funds to alleviate the affordable housing shortage that is truly a regional problem, I don't know why they need to build those in the Eastside area. The Eastside has, to my knowledge, basically never been a cheap place to live. It was a middle class suburban area that transformed into a very wealthy suburban area with denser parts that are also very wealthy. Maybe some small pockets of people were gentrified out, but what you're talking about seems to basically be just moving the people gentrified out of Seattle into an even wealthier area for some reason. It's also very car centric and spread out, which isn't so great for poor people that don't own cars. Sure the Eastside rail is getting built but that will only cover a limited part of the region.

But of course, like I said, they should still help solve the problem monetarily.

<comment><USER2> One thing I didn't see you address is where you think affordable housing should be built. Do you have any thoughts in this regard?

<comment><USER3> By areas with high density and good transit. So, mostly Seattle and the Western/Central part of Renton, also Downtown Bellevue and Downtown Redmond. Last time I drove around Georgetown I noticed lots of unused space, maybe there's a reason a lot of affordable housing hasn't been built there, but it seems underutilized if it's not actively being developed for affordable housing

I'm not in principle against low income people living on the Eastside. In fact, I think most of Bellevue, Kirkland, and the area surrounding the Bel-Red corridor should be upzoned and get more infrastructure - then low income people could actually live there

<comment><USER4> I don't think we'll see them in downtown Bellevue anytime soon. Too many "Homeless Shelter Yes, Eastside No" signs next to the roads on the way in. I'm just a transplant and won't be here forever (10 years so far though), so I have little stake in the matter, but it seems clear most people on the Eastside want it to keep being "nice" even if that unfairly prices people out. I like things "nice" too and appreciate the car culture here. Of course I might be mistaken and the Seattlefication will continue. I have a friend who thinks Bellevue's about 10 years behind Seattle in things, Redmond another 10 years behind Bellevue, maybe we'll see Issaquah become the new Redmond.

<comment><USER5> There are homeless in downtown Bellevue. Yes, nothing compared to Seattle but I see dozens of homeless each day. I've gotten to know some and they take the 550 to get away from the camps in Seattle.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> They really should use the money to instead build more remote offices, where housing is already affordable, develop the technologies/processes to support that distributed culture, invest in making those other cities more livable, and thereby bring economic opportunity to a more diverse set of cities/cultures.

I am personally not in favor of more density here because my lifestyle, and those of many I know, is better suited to the lower density we have on the east side. The balance we have now is one of the main reasons many of us choose to live here, in the PNW. It feels to me like this growth will be good for new transplants at the cost of those who have made a life here already.

<comment><USER7> I'm guessing you're a transplant too. Native Seattlites don't want you here either and would prefer the PNW to be a lumber, fishing, and shipyard town. /s

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Here's how the money is being used (somewhat vague).

"Microsoft plans to lend $225 million at subsidized rates to preserve and build middle-income housing in six cities near its Redmond headquarters. It will put an additional $250 million into low-income housing across the region...the remaining $25 million will be grants to local organizations that work with the homeless, including legal aid for people fighting eviction."

Here's the projected impact (also somewhat vague).

"The Seattle Times reported Wednesday that if the $500 million were put into one project, it would create only about 1,000 units, so instead Microsoft will most likely put smaller amounts in many projects to help build "tens of thousands of units."

Here's the need: "Seattle region needs 156,000 more affordable housing units [today].and will need 88,000 more by 2040 if the region's growth continues."

</comment><comment><USER9> I'd much rather see Microsoft (and Bill, Steve, the estate of Paul Allen, etc.) pay more in taxes to the state of Washington and have that affordable housing built that way, but this is better than nothing. Good on MS.

<comment><USER10> > pay more in taxes to the state of Washington and have that affordable > housing built that way

I got lost in the middle here -- does more taxes being paid to the state of Washington directly contribute to more affordable housing being built in Seattle?

The closest thing I could find was this: [https://www.commerce.wa.gov/building- infrastructure/housing/...](https://www.commerce.wa.gov/building- infrastructure/housing/housing-trust-fund/)

<comment><USER4> WA has no state income tax (corporate or personal), so I can only assume GP's wish is for Seattle to get its way and impose its own income tax despite being against the state constitution. While we're wishing maybe we can go a step further and liberate/extricate Seattle as its own sovereign city-state, or at least as something on par with full-fledged states like Wyoming that can make decisions independent of other states if not independent of the federal union...

<comment><USER9> _I can only assume GP 's wish is for Seattle to get its way and impose its own income tax despite being against the state constitution_

Nice strawman! You're a bit off, though. My wish is for the state to create an income tax. I think it's absurd that we have such a regressive tax structure in this state.

<comment><USER4> Thanks for clarifying. Can I convince you to change your wish to what I originally assumed and limit it to Seattle? A lot of us transplants in the area are here in part explicitly because of the tax incentive, I assume a lot of natives are too since they started it that way.

<comment><USER9> Lots of natives are worried about how they're going to continue living in Seattle and the surrounding areas given that one of the few mechanisms that local governments have for raising revenue is through regressive tax schemes and property taxes.

That doesn't encourage anyone to put down roots. That's not healthy for the area. If taxation really is your primary concern, then I hope you choose to leave and move to Wyoming at some point.

<comment><USER11> Texas does just fine without an income tax. The idea that natives are "worried" is nonsense. I live in California now where plenty of natives are worried because of how high taxes are. It seems bizarre that Seattle "natives" are actually worried because there aren't enough taxes. That's a strange crowd. Here is a spoiler: with an income tax, property taxes don't get lowered, New Jersey has incredibly high property taxes and an income tax. Left leaning governments never, ever met a tax they didn't like and want to expand. The idea that a Washington income tax would lower property taxes is just a fantasy. An additional tax just inspires politicians to spend more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Is it a good or a bad thing when multinational corporations step in and take the place of government?

<comment><USER12> It depends. Do you believe that it is the role of government to build new housing or is it their role to create an environment that encourages new building supply? Is new housing not being built because of government regulation that deters new building or certain types of buildings?

<comment><USER13> Both?

I think in places like SF or Seattle it's a combination of government regulation and zoning rules, and idle capital. But at the same time I don't see why government itself can't invest in building things like transportation infrastructure to support the increased density (assuming density is something we want - I'm not entirely convinced it is).

Over the last few decades the default state appears to have been "build up" rather than "build up where needed, and out where you can". Cities from previous iterations of civilization appear to have done the latter, while we mostly just do the former here in the states (over recent decades). LA could maybe be considered an exception, however it's zoning rules are draconian and density seems to be the way forward less some major overhaul.

<comment><USER14> While the rate has decreased, "sprawl continues to be pervasive and continues to increase" in the majority of US metropolitan areas, and "2010 represents the first time that more people lived in lower density than higher density tracts in metropolitan America": [http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11...](http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1131&context=cate)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> At least in SF, I don't think financing is the issue. The city blocks projects that developers are begging to develop for years and create additional loopholes that allow NIMBYs to stall projects. At some point projects are stalled for so long that the cost to build increases so much where the project is not a good investment anymore and the project is abandoned.

<comment><USER16> In SF, they just make affordable housing illegal to build in most of the city. In fact, they just ban all new apartments: [https://sfzoning.deapthoughts.com/](https://sfzoning.deapthoughts.com/)

No apartments, no affordable housing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Can pouring money to buy housing possibly lower prices on housing? I want to understand, because it seems to me that supply and demand works some other way.

Perhaps increasing supply by developing tech or fighting regulations will be better way to spend money

<comment><USER18> From the article;

 _It will fund construction for homes affordable not only to the company's own non-tech workers, but also for teachers, firefighters and other middle- and low-income residents._

Microsoft are increasing the supply of affordable housing by literally paying to build affordable housing. That increase in supply might lower prices, or it might just attract more people to the area and raise demand as well. Either way it makes the area better for Microsoft and its employees.

<comment><USER19> This will create affordable housing for the same reason Bill Gates philanthropic initiatives create a cheap labor force for Microsoft.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> from the Seattle Times version of the article: $475M for loans to housing developers over three years and $25M for resident services

<comment><USER21> Link for reference: [https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle- news/homeless/microsoft...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle- news/homeless/microsoft-pledges-500-million-to-help-develop-affordable- housing-in-seattle-and-on-eastside/)

From that article:

\- $225M of the $475M will be loans below market interest rates, directed at middle-income housing.

\- The remaining $250M of the $475M will be loans at market interest rates, directed at low-income housing.

Other than optics, I'm not sure what the point of the $250M in market-rate loans is. I'd think that the main constraint on the development of low-income housing is that it's unprofitable, not that it's difficult to secure financing.

<comment><USER22> Financing is a pain to put together.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> As great as it is to see this kind of corporate responsibility and acknowledgement of the downsides of local growth, it's not clear to me how Microsoft is supposed to help here. High housing costs are a nasty example of a particular social problem where throwing money at it just doesn't work, _even if_ you're willing to completely take a loss on your investment. To my naïve analysis, if Microsoft just pledges money to build a bunch of housing units, then that throws a wrench in supply/demand, other people pull back on construction to match, and we end up right back where we started. I'm sure there are higher-order effects and the reality is more complicated than this, but I also don't think it changes the fundamental picture much. How is Microsoft supposed to help make more housing available without other developers just canning their own projects and leaving zero net change?

<comment><USER21> Nearly all of the regional variation in construction costs is attributable to differences in labor costs. This can create a self-reinforcing upward spiral in home prices [0]:

> _Inasmuch as it means that those working in the construction trades are > better off, construction wage growth in the expensive coastal cities is a > welcome development, which ought to be celebrated._

> _However, construction wage growth could also be part of a dangerous, self- > reinforcing cycle. Rising construction costs tend to reduce the supply of > new housing because they shift marginally-worthwhile residential development > into the red.8 This helps raise housing costs, which in turn feeds back into > construction wage growth for at least three reasons:_

> _\- When housing prices rise, workers require greater compensation to > subsist._

> _-When housing prices rise and the supply of homes is smaller than it would > be otherwise, it is harder for people to find suitable homes for sale (and > to afford them). This creates a greater incentive for renovation, which > exerts upward pressure on labor costs as suggested earlier._

> _-When housing prices rise, the pool of potential home buyers becomes more > financially select, which likely corresponds to higher expectations with > respect to homes' level of finish.9 Once again, this means that more > renovation is bound to take place (including home-flipping), exerting even > more upward pressure on labor costs._

A one-off influx of affordable housing could potentially break that cycle by enabling tradespeople to move to the area. I'm not sure that Microsoft's investment is significant enough to have that effect given the existing deficit in affordable housing in the Seattle area, but the theory's there.

[0] [https://www.buildzoom.com/blog/whats-up-with-construction- co...](https://www.buildzoom.com/blog/whats-up-with-construction-costs)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Are they going to be the landlord, or even arms-length invested in the landlord? Or, are they agreeing to fund metro and county housing initiatives which have public boards?

I'm not in favour of the former, I prefer the latter, but I could believe its a conversation about "how" and "what works"

</comment><comment><USER25> It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Housing is so short and expensive anywhere near Microsoft HQ that it's a significant factor in hiring. I'm a bit surprised that such corporations don't build dormitories near their campuses suitable for interns and singles.

<comment><USER26> they would love to. zoning.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I won't claim to know what incentivizes developers to build, but below market interest rates for construction seems like a tiny factor in whether a private developer would choose to build affordable housing vs market rate housing. Does anyone know if this difference in interest rate would actually make it more worthwhile for a developer to build low cost housing vs market rate?

</comment><comment><USER28> How does this work?

Buy/build houses and sell to eligible buyers for less than market? Rent at less than market? How does eligibility work?

Is arbitrage a problem?

<comment><USER29> My first questions exactly.

Renting out but giving a more discounted rate the poorer the tenant is probably the only sustainable approach to keep them having a home as living costs just keep rising. Of course, the discount should gradually dissolve as the tenants get better paid jobs to avoid someone moving in poor and keeping the same flat after ten years of career development. Getting raises or better paying jobs would pay off but rent would just eat a bigger portion of the monthly costs until they would be on par with market rates.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Question: what is MSFT's downside? I guess very little, or close to zero. Unless someone commits downright fraud (i.e., take the money and don't build anything--but no one will let them do this.)

They 'funding /financing buildings, maybe at lower rates than banks, but then MSFT has so much that a lot of it must be making close to 0%. So they solve a problem of theirs since MSFT is there for the long term, get excellent press with virtually no risk. If they default, MSFT might end up as building owners. Hire someone to manage and sell them when time is right. Maybe lose some on taxes and management fees but that is nothing, relatively speaking.

</comment><comment><USER8> Zoning is one of the big culprits for affordable housing. I'm curious if it would be productive for companies to target zoning laws or if it would create a counter productive backlash.

<comment><USER11> I grew up in Houston and I never heard the term "affordable housing" until I went to New York. Houston doesn't have zoning, nor does it have a housing "crisis."

<comment><USER31> Houston also sprawls into the horizon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Just build dorm style apartments for most of your employees and be done with it. Studio apts.

<comment><USER32> Build an employee mess!

<comment><USER30> Better than to send the mess to the rest of the public.

Like an apartment complex can be required to build parking,

tech companies should be forced to provide at least xx% of housing for employees. Just as they bought the land for offices, let them buy land for apartments. Cost of doing bidness :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Pay more corporate taxes instead and let elected people decide how to spend it for public services?

<comment><USER34> Bit hard for them to decide when they are all on a 1 month forced holiday.

<comment><USER11> State and local governments aren't on a holiday and that's where these types of decisions ought to be handled.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Seems to me like a job for the government. And half a billion is a drop in the ocean.

</comment><comment><USER36> _Door key rehash &software updates: 1 hour lock-in midday next Tuesday_

</comment><comment><USER37> Meanwhile crickets in the bay

</comment><comment><USER38> more of this!

</comment><comment><USER39> This is great and all, but part of me is really cynical about corporate philanthropy like this.

First off, all but $25 of the $500M will be loaned out to developers at below- market interest rates and the other $25 will be donated to related services. Good on Microsoft for committing capital that could be put to other uses, but this isn't a donation; it's philanthropic lending. Depending on the interest rates of these loans, they'll wind up keeping much of that principle. Yes, people will surely benefit from this, but this looks really conservative for such a headline.

Corporate taxation is a hot-button issue these days, but one can't help but notice how easy it is to shun government for being wasteful in providing housing services while private industry is being applauded to essentially buy the process of welfare. And while there are heated debates about what major companies should contribute (or avoid contributing) in taxes, can we even agree that affordable housing sponsored by private money is a little contradictory here?

<comment><USER40> It's potentially an interesting demonstration of how keeping an area capable of housing low-skill workers can be beneficial to keeping their own high-skill workers' neighborhoods staffed with those low-skill jobs.

Something I always find really interesting, as a San Francisco resident, is that people seem to think that the market is incapable of resolving the problem of the purported loss of low-skilled workers to act as the baristas, servers, deliveries, etc, because rising cost of living drives those people out. But there are many obvious avenues in which this resolves itself, the most obvious of which is that the prices of those services simply rise until it becomes worthwhile for those people to commute further, or that they can start to move back into the city. Now, maybe this is yet an alternative to the more straightforward equilibrium, wherein some of the employers in the city begin to provide lower-skilled workers with housing for the benefit of their own workforce.

I have no idea what Microsoft's motivation for doing this is, but it would be an interesting possibility.

<comment><USER41> > But there are many obvious avenues in which this resolves itself, the most > obvious of which is that the prices of those services simply rise until it > becomes worthwhile for those people to commute further, or that they can > start to move back into the city.

In an economic fairy tale, sure.

In reality, what happens is that people working low-income jobs end up with a two and a half hour commute from half-the-state-away, or, alternatively, living in a slumlord's idea of a barracks. Or, sometimes, both.

It's a 'solution' much in the same way that in the Soviet Union, people would 'solve' the problem of toilet paper shortages by joining the Communist party, which would entitle them a subscription to Pravda.

The wealthiest country in the world can, and should do better.

<comment><USER40> It does NOT take an economic fairy tale to determine precisely how the situation plays itself out.

For example, it's not as though the occupants of SF are going to be satisfied living in a city without access to bars and restaurants, no matter how wealthy they are. There are bars and restaurants in SF as it stands, are their staffs all living in subsidized affordable housing? No. For one, they simply get paid more than outside of the city, because things cost more. They get larger tips because people make more money, and have larger bills to tip on. While some might be subsidized with rent control, others live with roommates, or they live outside of the city. There are any number of circumstances they find themselves in, but the point is that it is _worth it_ to them to be able to work in the city. If it was not, _they would not work here._ And if _they did not work here, their wages would go up in order to fill the demand._ And let's take this even further. What if their wages go up so high that the drinks and food begin to cost a very undesirably high amount to the residents? Well then, that begins to affect the desirability of living in the city. Suddenly less people want to live here, because the cost of living is so high. And when less people are competing to live here, rent starts to go down, and so do wages, and prices. The entirety of the system is in stabilizing flux as a consequence of this.

If we're actually arriving at situations where people are making a two and half hour commute as a consequence of them having no alternative options (which is not the same as them making the commute because of better opportunities), then we agree that we're no longer dealing with a viable model. I used to do a 1.5 hour commute each way, every day, for over a year, because it was worth it to me to live in that particular area rather than being closer to my work. If what you're suggesting is that their only options are effectively capable of exploiting them due to no alternatives, you're effectively describing an overall employment crisis. Given a system-wide lack of employment opportunities, which is certainly not the reality we currently find ourselves in, then we surely agree that there is an appropriate role for the state to fulfill in mitigating the situation. But that still doesn't mean that we agree that affordable housing is the correct mechanism for addressing this problem, which we surely do not.

<comment><USER42> I agree with this but I think it underestimates how far the central bank's printing of money can push us out of equilibrium. Also, the ability to create real value is harmed by regulations like labor, zoning, and health codes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Does it mean they are buying 25 houses in Seattle area for the company ownership ?? Are they going into property development now ??

</comment><comment><USER44> This line made me snicker:

"And Facebook has planned to build 1,500 apartments near its Menlo Park headquarters, with 15 percent to be affordable."

So, 85% of the housing created is too expensive to be purchased? Sounds like a pretty poor business model. ;)

<comment><USER32> 'Affordable' in this context means 'to someone on a median income in the area.' It doesn't mean nobody could afford them otherwise.</comment></comment>


Hydrogen didn't work for the Hindenburg, but can it be safely supplied to homes? - <AUTHOR> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-10/hydrogen-energy-project-to-pump-gas-into-adelaide-homes/12439426 <comment><USER2> It will certainly show up all the leaks in the gas network!</comment>


Apple's Secure Enclave Processor (SEP) Firmware Decrypted - <AUTHOR> https://hackaday.com/2017/08/18/apples-secure-enclave-processor-sep-firmware-decyrpted/ <comment><USER2> Previously discussed here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15039460](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15039460)

</comment><comment><USER3> August 18, 2017

Also, don't be mislead by the headline. To quote a comment on the article:

"Imagine the Secure Enclave as a vault. Apple hung a big, dark curtain over it to prevent anyone from even seeing the vault. Now, that curtain has been opened and people can see the vault. The vault, however, is still locked as securely as ever."

<comment><AUTHOR> Maybe for a casual reader, but nothing is misleading about the headline unless you don't understand how Apple's Secure Enclave Processor (SEP) works.

For more on that, as mentioned in the linked page, there's the "Demystifying the Secure Enclave Processor" talk from Blackhat:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNeUT_sRos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNeUT_sRos)

Or here's the PDF:

[https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-16/materials/us-16-Mandt- De...](https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-16/materials/us-16-Mandt-Demystifying- The-Secure-Enclave-Processor.pdf)

<comment><USER4> > _unless you don't understand how Apple's Secure Enclave Processor (SEP) > works._

So basically it's only misleading to 99.9999% of people?

<comment><USER5> Not on HN, where I expect most readers to understand what is firmware and what happens when you have its binaries and/or source code.

<comment><USER6> Even if you understand firmware (which I wouldn't expect of _most_ readers, just some; the reason we develop abstractions is so our fellow hackers can hack on new things instead of studying the same things we already studied and hacked), it's extremely common for companies that keep security software secret to rely on that secrecy for security. You need to understand the Secure Enclave in particular _and_ believe that the Apple folks are both talented and honest enough to implement what they say they're implementing to know that, in this case, that's not what's happening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _> It's a black box that we're not supposed to know anything about_

Nope. Apple published a whitepaper that details how the SEP works.[1] Decrypting the firmware does help researchers look for vulnerabilities in the implementation, but it's not like Apple is relying on it being a black box.

[1] [https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf](https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf)

<comment><USER8> Can you point out the section in that whitepaper that describes SEP in detail? Because all I see is a high-level marketing document.

<comment><USER7> Says the PhD candidate in hardware security. You may want more low-level details but it's inaccurate characterize it as "marketing". That's just snark. It presents numerous details on the implementation of the SEP throughout the document.

<comment><USER8> The article claimed that SEP is a black box, which you _strongly_ denied based on the contents of the security whitepaper. But when confronted, you failed to present which part of the document presents how SEP is implemented _in detail_.

If you would like to avoid such replies in the future, try to avoid making strong, absolute statements. When I talk about topics I am unfamiliar with, I tend to use phrases like "I think" and "I believe" quite sparingly.

> Says the PhD candidate in hardware security.

Again, the fact of the matter is that the Apple security whitepaper is a marketing document. I'm not sure what my background has to do with that though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> How does one find such a key? It's my understanding the brute forcing such key would take billions of years on a regular CPU, so can anyone here explain how this was (probably) achieved?

</comment><comment><USER10> The link makes it sound like SEP only handles TouchID - is this true, or does the SEP also deal with passcodes?

<comment><USER11> It does more than that.

From the [ios security guide]:

> The Secure Enclave provides all cryptographic operations for Data Protection > key management and maintains the integrity of Data Protection even if the > kernel has been compromised.

e.g. you can encrypt and decrypt, referencing a key by id, but without having the private key ever leave the enclave, even if the app or iOS kernel gets compromised.

[ios security guide] [https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf](https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf)

The Secure Enclave section is pretty short and the entire document is very approachable.

<comment><USER12> Sounds like basically what a cryptocurrency hardware wallet does.

Several months ago I saw a project making wallet software that used the enclave. I forget who they were but I think they'll have a hard sell; everyone just reflexively assumed it was insecure because it was on a phone.

<comment><USER13> Indeed, cryptocurrency hardware wallets and the SEP are basically just HSMs (hardware security modules).

It's unfortunate people would draw negative connotations from it being on a mobile device. The security architecture of iOS and the SEP combined with the relatively wide deployment of iPhones makes for a great number of use cases.

<comment><USER14> The secure enclave uses secp256r1 while blockchain typically use secp256k1. Since private keys can't be imported, blockchain devs still require software interface until one or the others adopts the scheme.

<comment><USER15> [https://www.trustedkey.com](https://www.trustedkey.com) actually uses the Enclave and also the equivalent component (Secure Element) in Android phones.

Both of these modules use the secp256r1 curve at least, so the signature verification algo which runs on the blockchain can be the same for both types of devices. (You can find some more details on this topic here: [http://blog.enuma.io/update/2016/11/01/a-tale-of-two- curves-...](http://blog.enuma.io/update/2016/11/01/a-tale-of-two-curves- hardware-signing-for-ethereum.html))

Since the Byzantium fork there are some precompiles available for curve operations. Using those for the r1 curve signature verification in EVM code brought down the gas cost to practical levels.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This was actually cracked back in August, and sites quoted Apple as saying they have no plans to fix it, presumably because obscurity is not security and they originally encrypted it because well, why _not_?

Ultimately there will be some exposure from this, and they'll address each exploit as it comes just like the rest of the system.

</comment><comment><USER17> This is interesting. I hope Apple has some hefty bug bounties on SEP vulnerabilities. I also hope Apple has chosen a sensibly safe language for the SEP firmware code, since correctness is of essential importance here.

<comment><USER18> See this blackhat paper for some detail. [https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-16/materials/us-16-Mandt- De...](https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-16/materials/us-16-Mandt-Demystifying- The-Secure-Enclave-Processor.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> This article is extremely misleading to most people</comment>


Ask HN: How do you manage your daily Agendas? Tools/tips? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
So, I'm a co-founder (CTO) of a startup. We are scaling to a stage where I've to go from doing things hands-on myself to delegating that stuff to others. When it was just me doing, it was simpler. Now there are lots of things I need to juggle, and I'm moving from primarily a developer to core CTO kind of job profile with responsibilities of being Tech-architect, Engineering/product manager/TechOps etc kind of a role who will be coding only part-time and major time managing. (This is just to give you a background).
I'm constantly finding myself losing track of things, small but important things. I'd like to know how you plan your day? I'm inclined to just keep a diary and jot down important things, but rescheduling/searching/follow-up kind of tasks are not best solved by this method. Do you guys use any productivity tools? Google Calendar? Also, any simple yet effective tips for me? Life hack kind of a thing? I know it's a very generic question and I can find 100 different ideas floating around on the web. But I'd like to take advantage of collective knowledge of the community and have a dialog on the same.
Regards, <comment><USER2> I use a combo of recurring reminders, Trello, Evernote, iPhone "Notes", and a text file

</comment><comment><USER3> Two essential daily tools for me:

<http://www.craigotis.com/>

<http://www.trello.com></comment>


MeetInnovators interview: How Derek Sivers Sold CD Baby (as sole owner) for $22M - <AUTHOR> http://meetinnovators.com/2010/01/14/derek-sivers-from-cd-baby/

<comment><USER2> Wow that is annoying how you have to register to download the MP3.

Also, "Subscribe in iTunes" link is no where to be found.

<comment><USER3> Sorry to the site owners for posting these links, but that is kind of ridiculous.

Link to the MP3 [http://meetinnovators.com/2010/01/14/derek-sivers-from-cd- ba...](http://meetinnovators.com/2010/01/14/derek-sivers-from-cd-baby- docs/derek_sivers_full.mp3)

And the iTunes link [http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcas...](http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=307286551)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wow. Derek Sivers really kicks ass.

<comment><USER5> We should all be inspired by him to make something great, one day be able to give millions away and also to have our picture taken while hopping a creek for an interview.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> A good example of a founder that knew for the company to survive and growth in the future another step was required and he was not interested in that position. A smart guy.

</comment><comment><USER7> I think his success is great. I also think that describing 5% of 20MM annually as a trickle is really funny. I want to be trickle profitable someday.

<comment><USER8> That starts at 1 million annually. After 20 years, there will be only $7 million left in the fund. Hmm.

<comment><USER9> That's assuming the fund doesn't earn any interest, which I expect it does.</comment></comment></comment>


What Old Age Is Really Like - <AUTHOR> http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/what-old-age-is-really-like <comment><USER3> It's a slog, but in the end, it delivers.

I rather like how John Scalzi handles it in _Old Man 's War_ and sequels. I also like the old people in perpetually young bodies that Vernor Vinge, Greg Egan, Charles Stross, etc go on about. It's too bad that I'll be dead before any of that is possible. So it goes.

</comment><comment><USER4> I think it was when I stopped making excuses for my grandfather and started admitting he is a racist, lecherous, inconsiderate asshole (promoted by all the stores the other old folk would reminisce over him being exactly that his entire life, like it's all just a lark), that I stopped seeing old people as "otherly".

Being "set in your ways" is not endearing, and certainly not acceptable. "It was a different time" is bullshit. No, it wasn't. There is no demarcation line between now and then. There weren't any different issues, everyone had the same problems. We are all products of the same past. Time is continuous. Playing this game of "you get a pass because you're gonna die soon anyway" is infecting future generations with the idea that we can tolerate intolerance if the intolerant person is particularly stubborn enough.

Barring straight up senility, the persons your elders are now we're the people they've always been. If they don't get technology today, it's because they have always been unable to easily learn new things. If they say racist shit today, it's because they lived through the civil rights movement of the 60s-- _as well as_ all of the other movements we've gotten to live through ourselves --and said "yep, that's not for me". If they act like your opinion can't possibly be right or important, it is because they were always a sociopath.

Age doesn't make you an asshole. If anything, I've seen it mellow people out. You will be you, just slower.

</comment><comment><USER5> That's a lot of words to say not much besides the obvious fact that old people are just like us, trying to get by, still doing, for the most part, what they have been doing all along.

My parents are both 84 and behave like everyone else; they use technology just like teenagers do, my father texting constantly with his grand children and my mother using her phone to take pictures of everything and anything. They each have their own computer and share files with Dropbox. They go on holidays. The set up wifi in their country home by themselves when they get there.

As for the "reading list", may I suggest Saint-Simon? This contemporary of Louis XIV, born in 1675, wrote all his life but started his masterpiece, his Memoirs, when he was 65 (in 1740) and finished 10 years later at 75, having produced the amazing total of around 3 million words (for reference, the 7 books of Harry Potter are under 1 million words; the King James bible around 750k words).

Creating in old age isn't something that happened miraculously in the 21st century.

<comment><USER6> _> That's a lot of words to say not much besides..._

That's why I read less and less magazines articles. Lots of efforts put into the form rather than the content, that read like a school exercise (intro- thesis-conclusion). Would rather spend my time reading informal but to-the- point blog pieces.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I liked the sentence:

""" She says that the biggest problem for many older people is "ageism, rather than the process of aging itself." """

When I nowadays apply for jobs (I am 50), I start to experience this already. Kids interview me and I ask myself: where are the companies, where others like me work, so I don't have to answer silly questions about failing memory and hurting backs anymore. Mine doesn't hurt and my memory is crystal clear - <USER2> the one of my 86 year old mother.

Don't want to know what happens in 30 years from now. What I do experience: When I need an appointment with my doctor, I am asked, when I want to come. My mother who needs to see the doctor much more urgently, has to wait for 4-5 weeks.

<comment><USER8> I'm not 50 yet but seriously, where do developers work as we age. It seems like I see fewer and fewer of us past 30.

<comment><USER9> As far as I can tell after serious study of this†:

You work in a field that doesn't care about or can respect age, embedded and especially jobs requiring security clearances (which are expensive to get for the very first org that hires you), you become a consultant or otherwise self- employ, you work directly for the government, you get very lucky, or you find another line of work.

†I first became aware of this in a particular job search when in my mid-late '30s, I got a clue, scrubbed my resume of all indications of how old I am, and then got a massive increase in responses. Started following the issue closely since then.

I hear its very bad in the Bay Area, but, oh, based on an acquaintance in the Boise, Idaho region after HP laid off a bunch of older guys like himself and replaced them with H-1Bs, it's bad in many places (after consulting for a while he had to settle for a state government job, helping to rescue a bunch of Java done by a literally criminal body shop).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My mentor used to say that no big change happens when you age, you have the same thoughts and desires as you did when you were a child and you wouldn't remember you were old if various body parts didn't hurt periodically.

<comment><USER11> I was going to say much the same. As I have gotten older (46yo currently), I've come to realize that my thoughts are generally the same as when I was a teenager. It was a rather enlightening moment when I discovered it was true for a great many people that I would consider old.

Sure, I know more things, but forgotten others. I like to think the former outnumber the latter. Perhaps I'm wiser. Perhaps not.

But, for the most part, I still have the same thoughts as before, be they wonder, delight, dirty, sad. Hopefully I will express the correct ones at the proper times, but probably won't.

I found it fascinating when I realized that most others are in the same boat. The guy standing next to me at the bank might be 73 but he is obviously enthralled with the pretty teller behind the window, and I'm sure that if I told him a dirty joke, or even one that disparages someone's race, gender, or religion, we would both laugh because we are too old to care about political correctness, and besides, we are thinking like the teenagers we feel we are, anyway.

And we'll laugh without guilt because we understand that a joke can be funny and still not lower our respect of those that resemble the characters in our jokes, and I hope others are telling equally funny jokes with characters bearing a striking resemblance to myself.

<comment><USER12> That's an awfully awful defense of bigotry. So unaware, so unempathic, so awful through and through.

I really hope that I will never think that way, no matter how old I am.

<comment><USER13> > _That's an awfully awful defense of bigotry. So unaware, so unempathic, so > awful through and through._

Did you use his simple remark as an excuse to have an outlet for your own hatred?

There are far greater injusticies in the world to be so furius about than two old people laughing (and betweem themselves too) with a "culturally insensitive" or even racist joke.

The one's who can't stand such things, are the ancestors of the very countries that perpetuated the worst racist crimes. So a lot of this PC fervor can be ascribed to guilt, or as an outlet for the same puritan and prudish thinking that made those cultures consider blacks as inferior (immoral, lustful, etc) in the first place.

In the 7 billion-something world (and I've been to most of it), regular people enjoy what you'd call a "racist" joke, INCLUDING for themselves and their own cultures. It's a way to laughs at one's neighbors but at one's self too.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Build your portfolio by working on interesting projects - <AUTHOR> https://zyring.com

<comment><USER2> Nice website... but please, oh please... don't put the content of the website in a lightbox. Don't limit my access to your content to a 800x600 modal.

<comment><USER3> Agreed. We were actually debating this for a while :) Thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it.

<comment><USER2> If you really must use them, make them at least 80% width and height and change the opacity of the black overlay from 0.81 to 0.6. Have the purple header snap to the top, and have it slim down to something like 20px height and hide the title when you are scrolled down.

[http://snag.gy/LKED2.jpg](http://snag.gy/LKED2.jpg) vs [http://snag.gy/ROfRO.jpg](http://snag.gy/ROfRO.jpg)

Also, test those things on mobile. Modals are tricky on mobile.

<comment><USER3> Thank you again. This feedback is really helpful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is really cool from a first glance. I definitely think one needs to take this sort of approach when learning a new technology. Despite having enthusiasm about a new field of software development, it's far too easy to abandon any attempts education oneself due to the dryness of the material.

<comment><AUTHOR> We couldn't agree more. Education on its own is not really sufficient to learn a new technology. Everyone need hands on experience, and our goal is to enable people to do so after they have finished a course. At a high level, be the lab for development courses.

Thanks much for your feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This looks really interesting - especially since I am wondering where I want to take my career. I have studied CS and worked as a SAP CRM consultant for approximately ten years now, but always hang around sites like this one... and am getting more and more frustrated with the environment in which most stuff in my line of work happens (mid sized businesses in risk-averse sectors which see IT as a boring tool to sell whatever they produce). I had already wondered how I can polish my CV with more modern technologies, and this just seems to fit really well :)

<comment><USER3> This scenario is one of the main reasons we are doing this. We would love to talk to you more and see where we can help. I would really appreciate it if you could email me at firstname.lastname@example.com so we can talk more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's a cool idea, but I'm not sure I would want to start one of the projects when none of the outlines are actually finished. Looks like there are 4 different courses but each one is only 25% done, so there's not a lot of meat there yet.

<comment><USER7> Thank you for your feedback. We have just launched our startup and wanted to get feedback from the HackerNews community. We will be completing the roadmap for those projects and add more in other areas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> [https://zyring.com/#/tracks/ios/projects/messaging](https://zyring.com/#/tracks/ios/projects/messaging)

Found a typo, UIBotton

</comment><comment><USER9> This is pretty cool and seems like something I would use.

However the design aesthetics simply aren't up to par for me. The colour choices and font choices are not great.

<comment><USER10> Too many colors and the text is tiny in boxes that are too big.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> [https://zyring.com/#/tracks/frontend](https://zyring.com/#/tracks/frontend)

typo: anuglarJS -> angularJS

<comment><USER3> Thank you so much for the catch.

We fixed this in early morning but things are cached in CDNs so it might take a while to get reflected.</comment></comment>


MySQL server has access to client-side filesystem - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/gwillem/status/1086233504743129089 <comment><USER2> Similarly postgresql has access to the host shell:

COPY weather_json FROM PROGRAM 'curl [https://api.openweathermap.org/data/2.5/weather?q=Tokyo';](https://api.openweathermap.org/data/2.5/weather?q=Tokyo';) COPY 1

They both absolutely have to run under selinux.

<comment><USER3> Seems like that is the server shell, right?

> When PROGRAM is specified, the server executes the given command and reads > from the standard output of the program, or writes to the standard input of > the program. The command must be specified from the viewpoint of the server, > and be executable by the PostgreSQL user.

Although the STDIN/STDOUT options seem a bit more ambiguous:

> When STDIN or STDOUT is specified, data is transmitted via the connection > between the client and the server.

<comment><USER2> Yes it's the server shell.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm pretty sure all databases have access to the filesystem.

<comment><USER3> The difference here is that it's the client filesystem, not the server filesystem.</comment></comment>


Weizenbaum examines computers and society (1985) - <AUTHOR> http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N16/weisen.16n.html <comment><USER2> Short discussion from 2014: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8341074](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8341074)

Even shorter from 2017: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15859854](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15859854)

Related though frivolous from 2009: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=438970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=438970)

<comment><USER3> Is kinda frightening that this doesn't get any more discussion here, because it means that the people that get the news here (developers, it staff or at least technical savvy users) aren't really concerned about the points he raises, even though they are very important in today's world.

<comment><USER2> I'm not sure that follows. The dominant factor in what gets attention here is randomness, and 3 or 4 posts in 10 years is not a significant number. There may also be something else about the articles that make them fall short of widely interesting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reaso...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reason)

My favourite cautionary tale of the programming industry. His concerns in 1976 of programmers spiralling into ever deepening efforts to solve their self-made problems guides my work today.</comment>


Colombia: Home of the perfect cup of coffee? - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32219604

<comment><USER2> Is third wave coffee uncommon in the UK? This sounds like a nice cup of coffee and all, but delicious, carefully-brewed pourover is by no means a rarity in the US.

</comment><comment><USER3> I apologize for the off-topic, as much as I absolutely love coffee the serving process to me always seemed ridiculous. This clip expresses my feelings pretty accurately: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfuX1rypN4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfuX1rypN4Y)

</comment><comment><USER4> Exactly how I make coffee. But there are so many factors in brewing a perfect cup of coffee, if you can actually define what that is.</comment>


Show HN: I made an open-source coding platform - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/the-domecode/ <comment><USER2> This is going to sound harsh, but I am genuinely trying to help.

I replied to you earlier[0] at considerable length when you asked about how to acquire users ... you haven't replied.

You continue to post here again and again and again and again, the same thing over and over, with no evidence that you are actually open to receiving advice, suggestions, or feedback.

More, HN users are not your target audience anyway!

My advice ... and I have no expectation that you will read this, let alone respond, but even so I offer it for free ... is to back off submitting the same thing repeatedly, think hard, and write something concerning your site that _specifically targeted at the HN audience._

Your site is slick and glossy, it's probably lovely, but I'm not in your target audience either, so I haven't used it, and won't know how usable or useful it is. It might be wonderful, but this is not the place to get users. This is the place to get advice about the site, business, development, strategies, _etc._ But you need to share things with HN before HN will respond. Simply telling us about the site _won 't work._ We're not your audience.

So, how will you respond to that? _Your coding ability is not in question,_ but you need to think much, much more about who you are talking to, and why. Clearly just submitting the site over and over isn't working. I've given you clues as to why not, not you need to apply yourself to solving the problem, and not just doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results.

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24196665](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24196665)

<comment><AUTHOR> hey, I'm really sorry you feel that way but look closely, I've actually replied thoroughly to your comment with a few questions. And no, I didn't just comment now, I commented on it before you commented this. And I am really eager to getting user feedback. I even changed the description of the platform on the landing page after I read your whole comment. The previous description as I understand it might have been either misleading or not clarifying the question, a very basic question "What's DomeCode?". I genuinely want to receive some helpful feedback on how to better acquire users, how to plan out to monetize it and even how to get donors/ funding. I'm absolutely willing to take anyone who's along with me on this journey to grow the platform. Since then btw, the userbase has increased to 237 and the retention rate is doing well too. I have added several additions in terms of performance increase and ease of use to the platform.

<comment><USER2> > _" look closely, I've actually replied thoroughly to your comment with a few > questions. And no, I didn't just comment now, I commented on it before you > commented this."_

You are mistaken.

At the time I am writing this comment, the comment to which you are replying here is [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24235418](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24235418) and it was written 4 days ago.

Your reply with answers is here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24242182](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24242182)

At this point in time you wrote that 3 days ago.

So no, I wrote the comment above _before_ you answered those questions.

I wrote my comment above _4 days ago_. You wrote your reply to my questions _3 days ago_.

And looking at your other HN submissions, they now appear to be dead-on- arrival. I suspect you've submitted the same thing so many times, they've been flagged often enough that the system now effectively thinks your submissions are spam. You can try emailing the mods to get that reversed, but your posts don't seem to contain anything new.

> _I am really eager to getting user feedback._

That is evident, but you are not changing your tactics in any way. All you are doing is telling us again of the platform's existence, and telling us again that you want to know how to get more users. New features don't carry any weight if the reader isn't already using your site.

> _I even changed the description of the platform on the landing page ..._

So now when I go to the landing page there is a bar of options I know nothing about, a HUGE logo that takes up nearly all of my screen, and this:

 _" Get more. With less hassle. Free & Open Source."_

That tells me nothing.

It's called "DomeCode", but looking at the bar across the top, if it's a coding site, why is "Music" the first thing there?

If I page down the first words below the fold are:

 _" Learn. Practice. Discuss. Have the musical element. All in one place. And more."_

Learn what? Music? Coding for music? Practice what? Discuss what? And with whom? And I, for one, don't can about a musical element, especially when I code.

Finally, halfway down that second page I get this:

 _" DomeCode is an open source platform to help you advance your coding journey ..."_

I really don't know what you mean by "advance your coding journey", and at this point I would close the page and move on.

I have no magic bullets for getting users, nor how to monetise it. I do expect that most of the people here on HN would have a similar reaction to mine:

At first glance:

* I don't know what it does;

* I don't know what problems it solves;

* I don't know why I should be interested.

I know you're trying really hard, I'm sure the site is slick and fabulous for those who have a need for it, but you are not communicating what it does, how it does it, or why someone should stay. I'm trying to give you the point of view of a visitor who doesn't already know everything you do. I'm sure your explanations are clear _to you_ , but you are not the person to whom you are trying to convey the message.

Looking at the answer you provided in your other comment, one thing you say is:

> _Maybe I 'll try a "What is it?" separate page that allows the user to > understand it better?_

People in general won't click around to find out what the site is for, or what it does, unless they already have a reason to think it might be interesting. Why should they do that?

So what does your site actually do?

* Competitions to test the experienced;

* Tutorials to guide the newcomers;

* Forums to discuss the challenges;

* Music to program by!

Is that right? How long do I need to hunt around before I find that out?

And if it's _not_ right then I _still_ don't know what it does.

Finally ... who are you trying to attract? Everyone? That won't work. You need to target a niche audience and get them hooked. Then they will (ok, might) draw in others. But you need to be clear about the problem the user has that you are solving, and the benefits of solving it with your site instead of somewhere else.

Again, all that sounds harsh, but I could have just walked away. I'm trying to help. Again, your coding skills are not in doubt, and the site might be great. If you're retaining 237 users, excellent! Get them to tell others, or get them to tell you what they like.

<comment><AUTHOR> I read the comment on the other post I made and I guess instead of acknowledging something and wasting others time with it, I should rather work on it and that's what I've been doing. My bad, I didn't check the comments on this post for a week or so but now that I have, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to help me out with this.

 _> Maybe I'll try a "What is it?" separate page that allows the user to understand it better?_

 _> People in general won't click around to find out what the site is for, or what it does, unless they already have a reason to think it might be interesting. Why should they do that?_

 _> So what does your site actually do?_

 _> Competitions to test the experienced;_

 _> Tutorials to guide the newcomers;_

 _> Forums to discuss the challenges;_

 _> Music to program by_

Yes, this is exactly what it's meant for. To help the beginners/intermediates get better at programming, conveniently practice on challenges ( and quizzes ) from the same platform, discuss challenges or any other query they might have in accordance with the Forum Guidelines, music to program by, a disposable code editor for those who are getting started with front-end (basically allows the user to watch the tutorial, code and even have the preview from a single tab instead of having a tab for the tutorial, a coding editor and a local host preview window open), take notes and plan tasks on the platform ( not claiming them to be essential features to the platform but something users can use conveniently, I will be engineering a way to sync them with Google Keep in the future so it makes more sense to use them ), create project/product listings that encapsulates all the essential information regarding the product and all the other listings as well in a shareable product link and more ( more in regards to features that I'm adding within a few weeks ). I created a pitch deck and that does have a Benefits slide that states :

\- You don't need to navigate to dozens of platforms anymore, DomeCode organizes all the tools and resources for you.

\- You can finally focus more on programming instead of finding the "right" website for every small thing.

\- You get to collaborate with developers around you.

\- DomeCode provides its users with a significant productivity boost.

\- Save around 30% of your overall time spent in the process of learning a programming concept, taking notes, and practicing it.

\- You simply get more without any hassle.

This is an investor pitch deck so the 30% claim isn't entirely precise but I found out that it was around that number for me to complete the process of learning a new concept and practicing it.

I'll include the relevant information on the website now and remove the non- essential existing info.

Thanks a lot!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Fastest VPN on the Market WireGuard and IPsec - <AUTHOR> https://www.tunnelhero.com/ <comment><USER2> Recently installed the VeePN application, it works well, it suits me</comment>


FDA Should Act Fast Amid Youth Vaping 'Epidemic' - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-07-09/vape-epidemic-fda-should-act-fast-on-youth-e-cigarette-use <comment><USER2> I've asked many parents to be ready to remove funding from the FDA, should they block teens from getting vapes that would otherwise be smoking tobacco. Vapes are saving lives.

<comment><USER3> What are your thoughts on this chart?

[https://media.boingboing.net/wp- content/uploads/2018/12/blog...](https://media.boingboing.net/wp- content/uploads/2018/12/blog_cigarettes_vaping_adolescents.gif)

<comment><USER2> It is interesting, but I base my opinions on all the people I know that have teens who smoke, have stopped smoking and instead vape. If the FDA attempt to block teens from vaping, they should be treated as a compromised agency.

<comment><USER3> I think it's tricky because it's both ways. If you are a current smoker, switching to vaping at an equal interval is a healthy move. I know many people with the same story about switching to vaping and it being great.

If you're a non-smoker, picking up vaping at any meaningful interval is a negative move.

How many positives outweigh the negatives? I don't know how to quantify that thing.

And all of that assumes that smokers vape at the same interval. It gets even more complicated if they vape more than smoking.

I went through a strange thing with this recently. Long anecdote:

I'll have the occasional cigarette when drinking. I find them too gross when sober, so that situation enforced itself in a way I found acceptable. All my smoker friends switched to Juul, so I eventually did the same, for all the health reasons expected. But the thing about the Juul is that it's minty and delightful and suddenly I'm ripping that thing at the end of the night, or between chores, and within days I noticed that both my breathing was impacted, and that I had a budding nicotine addiction. I gave the Juul away and went back to cigarettes. I think a few marlbros once in awhile are better than vaping constantly, and I need to be realistic with myself: I don't have the discipline to enforce boundaries on the vape.

So it's not apples and oranges. Plus, if kids could get cigarettes illegally, they can get vape stuff the same way. It's easier to conceal. And I think a lot of teens are like me – finding Juul enjoyable, but cigarettes gross, so if you take the vape off the table, they don't actually switch to cigarettes. This would save a lot of harm, I think.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


People with Power at Amazon Web Services - <AUTHOR> https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-people-with-power-at-amazon-web-services <comment><USER2> This is a paywalled article.</comment>


First tweet from space - <AUTHOR> http://twitter.com/Astro_Mike/status/1777093627

<comment><USER2> Good thing he's not using SMS to tweet. It would be more expensive!

<http://www.physorg.com/news129793047.html>

</comment><comment><USER3> Words cannot describe how awesome this is. Twitter is (quite literally!) out of this planet!

<comment><USER4> This one is truly out of this planet, I suppose @MarsPhoenix didn't really count... <http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix/statuses/839088619>

<comment><USER5> Why wouldn't it?

<comment><USER6> Because I think it was a human on Earth interpreting data from a machine in space, rather than a human tweeting directly from orbit.

Though I guess these tweets are emailed from a human in space and then interpreted/posted by humans on earth -- so I dunno: do these really count, either? ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> So how did he do it? Do they have an Internet connection up there?

<comment><USER8> I believe there's an IP connection to the ISS, Shuttle I'm not sure about. For this particular tweet though email came to the rescue:

 _I will be able to twitter from space if I have time. I will email tweets to NASA who'll fwd them. No promises but I will try my best._

<http://twitter.com/Astro_Mike/status/1676124868></comment></comment>


Qatar is Building Artificial Clouds For WorldCup 2022 - <AUTHOR> http://arabcrunch.com/2011/03/qatar-is-building-artificial-clouds-for-worldcup-2022.html <comment><USER2> Same story, different sources:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2375055>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2374532>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> initial model will be 500,000 USD is it too much?</comment>


Mystery meat OpenJDK builds strike again - <AUTHOR> https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8u-dev/2019-May/009330.html <comment><USER3> A few emails later in the thread[0], it is noted...

> ...who actually maintains the "official" Docker images for 8u and 11u? > Github history for Dockerfiles points to no one I recognize from around > OpenJDK.

That, I think, is the main problem.

[0]: [https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8u-dev/2019-May/0...](https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8u-dev/2019-May/009335.html)

Edit: Actually linking to source (which I should've done from the beginning…)

<comment><USER4> Main problem or not, having the "release" version number on anything other than an actual release version is begging for problems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> As an observer, not any kind of authority:

The release methodology of OpenJDK from Oracle is obscure at best, and it is hard to imagine how package managers are supposed to cope. I notice both of these examples come with Debian version strings attached, and they likely build from tags in the version control repository. As example, in these two links:

[https://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk8u/jdk8u/tags](https://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk8u/jdk8u/tags)

[https://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk- updates/jdk11u/tags](https://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk-updates/jdk11u/tags)

The "-ga" tags do pretty clearly delineate official releases, but they also get pushed to the public repository well (often weeks) after Oracle posts official binaries for these releases. It is confusing and makes it not all that mysterious that distribution packaging will take the best that they can see for doing a clean build, as they like to do.

It would help quite a lot if the +1/+2/+3/etc releases were instead delineated with "-alpha1", "-beta1", "-rc1" tags. Much clearer that they aren't meant to be production.

<comment><USER6> I think this has lees to do with the OpenJDK team and more to do with the part of the Docker team and/or community that maintain this repo and not pulling correct release versions.

I knew someone who worked at Gradle and noticed how RedHat did all their own gradle packaging that broke everything they had in their offical rpms and spec files.

Some projects like Elastic Search maintain their own v2 repos on their own domain (all there's are mirrored on Docker hub but their docs point to their own repo) and other projects have official Docker hub accounts (like Jenkins).

I'm guessing the right solution might be Docker hub working with the OpenJDK guys so they maintain their own organization on Docker hub and integrate building and pushing to it from their own CI.

<comment><USER7> It's an age old problem. Upstreams were complaining (legitimately) about how Linux distributions would (re)package their software and break it along the way 20 years ago. Broken packages in Docker being pulled from Debian is no surprise, it was ever thus.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is indeed not the first time something like this happens and a good reason to get your openjdk builds from someone that has licensed the test suites and supports their builds.

I remember having weird issues a few years ago with builds for both Centos and Debian/Ubuntu where they first took ages to get release builds out and then made it worse by basing their builds of pre-release versions rather than actual stable releases. This was several months into the JDK 8 cycle. In their defense, JDK 8 had some nasty bugs early on. But still, a lot of this seemed accidental to me and not intentional.

You can get decent openjdk builds from Amazon, Azul and Red Hat. They each put in quite a bit of effort to ensure these builds are solid and tested and they each offer these builds for free they also each offer Docker images with their builds and make it very easy to use them. I've been using Azul docker images for quite some time.

Amazon particularly seems to have made an effort with their openjdk builds. If you read their commit log: [https://github.com/corretto/corretto-8/commits/develop](https://github.com/corretto/corretto-8/commits/develop), you'll see a few backports of fixes from openjdk 9 and lots of efforts to get the packaging right. The last bug fix they added was from just a few months ago. I'm currently considering switching to this.

BTW. Oracle seems to have stepped away from this and only offers limited time support for their own JDKs which also cost money. So, not including them in this list on purpose. Unless you must use them (for legal/business reasons) and fully understand the legal situation that implies, you should avoid using them.

<comment><USER9> Pretty much every enterprise vendor has an OpenJDK build. I work for Pivotal. We've been building and shipping the OpenJDK from source for years (mostly Java buildpack, but we use it for anything that we ship that requires a JVM). Like our peers at other enterprise software vendors we spent a lot of engineering making the process smooth and traceable.

I think more of the industry will move towards AdoptOpenJDK builds. There's a lot of value in combining forces to produce the same byte-identical binaries for everyone.

<comment><USER10> Jetbrains do as well, they store theirs on bintray.

It's all a bit of a mess tbh and particulary frustrating from the outside where you aren't a full time java dev.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Not completely related, but this is one of the reasons why I prefer to add commits bumping the version number when a release is made instead of before–it means that any builds made from source don't have version number they shouldn't.

<comment><USER12> It took me a long time to understand why Maven uses version strings like 4.2.1-SNAPSHOT but this is exactly why it's useful.

(The standard practice is to strip the "-SNAPSHOT" off for the release commit, then stick it back on for the next commit, but with a bumped minor version. Both commits are then pushed at once, so stuff built locally always is marked as a SNAPSHOT.)

<comment><USER13> The problem here is that Debian's OpenJDK maintainer removed the "work in progress" indicator string manually. No approach protects against this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The AdoptOpenJDK community (a consortium of vendors and users that produce business ready OpenJDK binaries) will work with the Debian maintainers to course correct this going forwards. If you'd like to get involved see [https://AdoptOpenJDK.net](https://AdoptOpenJDK.net)

<comment><USER15> I'm still astounded how much of an (intentional?) mess Oracle have made of Java and OpenJDK. If you search for Java you get to a Oracle page with a big download button and a cryptic yellow warning about license changes, with a little link at the bottom directing people to OpenJDK. The official OpenJDK builds they send people to have no Windows installer - they're just a ZIP of the JDK. There is no way for an ordinary Windows user searching the internet for a way to install Java on their work PC to end up with a working Java install that doesn't leave their employer on the hook for Oracle licensing fees. AdoptOpenJDK have working builds with a proper Windows installer, but unless you already know about them somehow (for instance, by reading HN regularly) there's no way to find them.

<comment><USER16> The current thinking is that end users are not supposed to install Java - <USER2> will be bundled with every application. That kind of solves the problem, but I guess we'll have to forget about writing small utility programs in Java.

Also, complicating things a bit if you want a traditional shared Java installation, AdoptOpenJDK has apparently been refused a license for the test suite, making it not quite properly offical Java.

<comment><USER17> > but I guess we'll have to forget about writing small utility programs in > Java.

Developers will continue using the JDK (for which no installation is necessary; just setting JAVA_HOME). A tool suite intended for users will share the same runtime. And when it comes to small, user-oriented, standalone utilities, Graal's native image makes that more compelling than ever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Ubuntu Java packages are a joke as well and I stopped using them when I was having issues with the OpenJDK-11 package from apt. It turned out the the package wasn't packaging Java 11, but Java 10 instead, with a fake name [0]. I didn't check but they might rely on bad Debian packages just like Docker.

\---

[0]: [https://twitter.com/d53r/status/1055403252286717952](https://twitter.com/d53r/status/1055403252286717952)

<comment><USER19> There was a deliberate decision, not a random mistake: [https://askubuntu.com/questions/1037646/why-is- openjdk-10-pa...](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1037646/why-is- openjdk-10-packaged-as-openjdk-11)

TLDR: Ubuntu Bionic came out before Java 11 was officially released, they did not want to have Java 8 as their default, but Java 10 would not fit their LTS strategy since it is not itself an LTS release.

Having Java 10 in a package that claims to be Java 11 was a stopgap measure, and it has been fixed now, i.e. if you update that package you now get Java 11.

<comment><USER20> Unfortunately by doing this they made another mess.

When they updated OpenJDK to 11 [1] they didn't realize that some things have been dropped from the core project, and others have moved; as a result (among other things) JavaFX is now broken in Ubuntu Bionic. [2]

I think this is something inexcusable for an LTS.

[1] [https://blog.ubuntu.com/2019/04/19/announcing- openjdk-11-pac...](https://blog.ubuntu.com/2019/04/19/announcing- openjdk-11-packages-in-ubuntu-18-04-lts)

[2] [https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjfx/+bug/18250...](https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openjfx/+bug/1825054)

<comment><USER21> TLDR; I agree, but I understand how this happened.

The logic seems to have been:

* Ubuntu 18.04 is a LTS release.

* LTS releases should only incorporate software that is supported on a similar lifecycle.

* OpenJDK 8 was moving out of its support window early in the lifetime of Ubuntu 18.04.

* OpenJDK 11 (the next long term supported JDK) was not going to be released until after the release of Ubuntu 18.04

* OpenJDK 9 and 10 were short term releases so they weren't options

* The move from Open JDK 8 to Open JDK 9 included a lot of breaking changes (from project Jigsaw/modularisation)

So a compromise was necessary. From a purist packaging point of view it makes sense; release JDK 10 as "JDK 11" and silently upgrade under the covers when possible. In theory this would only involve minor changes and the 'wrong' version would only be there for the first few weeks of the release. In practice there were some breaking changes - enough that the backporting of OpenJDK 11 into Ubuntu 18.04 actually took rather a long time. It's also, of course, really confusing when you "sudo apt install openjdk-11" and something totally different happens.

The problem with staying on OpenJDK 8 (perhaps the obvious approach) is that in an unsupported state it would lack security fixes. In practice of course several alternative upstreams are now available supporting it.

Hopefully it will all go with fewer surprises when we get to the next LTS edition (Ubuntu 20.4).

<comment><USER22> I saw earlier in this thread of blaming Debian, but all I'm seeing is Ubuntu snafus

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> debian is not a trustworthy source of software if you expect it to be close to the upstream version.

They will change things around completely (MySQL/MariaDB), cause terrible bugs (OpenSSL), create crazy/renamed/weird versions (apache httpd -> apache2), etc etc.

Frankly you are lucky to get something this close to real java and not a shell script wrapping GCJ or whatever.

<comment><USER24> >And any day Debian decides to stop using Foo, is always a happy day for Foo's upstream. Finally, the stream of bugs matching the below template will stop spamming Foo's bug tracker:

>> Debian X.x (stable) >> foo <5-10 years old release> >> >> <XXth duplicate of a 7 year old issue that has been fixed 3+ years ago | 5 year old Debian- only bug caused by a Debian patch>.

>The only appropriate reply to such bugs IMHO is:

>> Fuck off. And don't come back before switching to a distribution >> with a non-broken definition of stability.

>Unfortunately, most upstreams always try to stay _civil_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> [https://lists.debian.org/debian- java/2019/05/msg00008.html](https://lists.debian.org/debian- java/2019/05/msg00008.html)

> I can only comment on the OpenJDK 11 backport in Stretch since I'm the one > who uploaded it last month. Debian 9 "Stretch" is far from being usable with > Java 11 (we poured a lot of work into Debian 10 to make this possible) and > this backport can only be reasonably seen as a technology preview aimed at > gathering feedback.

More at link, but that's concerning. We've been using the "OpenJDK" images but maybe we should look at using a different set of them.

</comment><comment><USER26> There don't seem to be any debian emails about it: [https://lists.debian.org/debian- java/2019/05/threads.html](https://lists.debian.org/debian- java/2019/05/threads.html)

<comment><USER3> The place where you'd want to look is the Debian Package Tracker entry for the source package, openjdk-8.

Here's the URL: [https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/openjdk-8](https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/openjdk-8)

That has the current status of the package, and links to the bug tracker, which is where I'd expect things to appear!

<comment><USER27> That seems an odd place to look, considering this is at the top of the page:

> package is gone

> This package is not in any development repository. This probably means that > the package has been removed (or has been renamed). Thus the information > here is of little interest ... the package is going to disappear unless > someone takes it over and reintroduces it.

So it is an obsolete package?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is the norm for Debian, including their own mystery meat in every package without asking upstream, and then making it look like an official release. I remember there was a post about that from the Redis guy a few days ago.

The guy who made those Docker images is not to blame in my opinion because he just trusted Debian, which is a renowned distro; he expected them to do the right thing. I believe Debian has a good reputation that they don't deserve anymore.

</comment><comment><USER29> To be fair, I wouldn't have known what "WE" meant either. Why not "WIP" instead?

</comment><comment><USER3> Unrelated, but one thing that's confused me, as someone who doesn't really use Docker.

I don't think of a programming language as being the thing upon which I would base my layers of containers. My expectation, as someone coming from not- containers, would be that I should first start with a core-libraries container, _then_ a language container, and then packages on top.

Having this clarity of composition, I think, is important if I need to start bringing other stuff into the environment, particularly stuff that requires compilation, so that I know what to target it against. It also makes it easier to know when a layer needs to be upgraded, for example because of a security issue.

The downside I see is that maintainers of layers higher up in the stack would possibly have to build multiple variants of their layer. But maybe that wouldn't be too big of a problem?

<comment><USER30> Core library of what programming language, if you haven't picked a language yet?

<comment><USER31> I think the OP's talking about stuff like Qt, OpenGL, BLAS/LAPACK.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Early employees – What won you over? - <AUTHOR>

Early non-founder employees (first ten or so) at startups - what attracted you to the job? Why did you choose your company over other opportunities? How did the company find you? And what advice do you have for founders looking to make those first critical hires? <comment><USER2> I took a job where I was the 4th employee at a start-up. The biggest selling point was they were willing to hire me despite my lack of web-dev experience. Coming from a .NET background, I had never used PHP until my interview. The interview involved setting up a MVC application and my interviewers were able to answer my technical questions succinctly. I realized they would be great people to learn from. I think the most important thing about hiring first employees is making sure everyone works well together.

I found the company thru craigslist, I'm not too sure if that applies to all cities, but Vancouver developer jobs show up regularly on CL.

<comment><AUTHOR> So you were looking for work in a field where you had little experience. That makes a lot of sense. I suspect it's a common answer with less experienced employees.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The last three startups I was part of the early team at:

#4 - a hardware token that was going to be tied in with web services. A twist on security that interested me as well as a plethora of things to work on.

#9 - a group of people I had previously worked that also included some challenges specifically around some stringent performance requirements at scale.

#6 - a very heterogeneous environment that had me working in Java, in C/C++, on mobile. It included doing some ugly things involving Windows server.

I guess for me, the typical factor is a breadth of interesting problems to tackle.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thinking about this after a thread on the Clojure 1.6 discussion. As a founder who will have to start hiring at some point, I'm really curious about what actually _works_ , versus what I think will work.</comment>


Zed Shaw: Kitchen Sink - <AUTHOR> http://www.zedshaw.com/essays/kitchensink.html

<comment><USER2> "What I usually hear from language designers is a laundry list of minuscule little features which are not really any better than any other language, and are usually just style differences. "

Any examples? Matz? Guido? Alan Kay? Who actually says this?

The article condemns those who make assertions without proof, then does that very thing. A number of times,

Basically, every tool or language has some number of annoying hypesters. (Like, um, Rails, for example.) But treating them as legitimate sources of authority on that tool or language is usually just goofy.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> As you can see I'm a big fan of Zed Shaw and of his eccentricities. If there was one person I would love to work on a open source project with. It would be him.

</comment><comment><USER3> He should fork Oz :)</comment>


Ruby compiled with Clang is 8% faster than with GCC 4.9, 44% faster than GCC 4.7 - <AUTHOR> http://cirandas.net/brauliobo/blog/ruby-compiled-with-clang-is-8-faster-than-with-gcc-4.9-and-44-faster-than-with-gcc-4.7.2

<comment><USER2> Frankly I don't trust in "5% boost, 20% boost, 44% faster" claims without knowing how the benchmark was performed.

<comment><USER3> I'd also wonder about a project that should have been tuned for a particular compiler really getting that much faster between versions of that compiler...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It would be neat to get a step-by-step list of what he did to compile this version of Ruby, what GC variables he used, etc.

<comment><USER5> Using [https://github.com/postmodern/ruby- install](https://github.com/postmodern/ruby-install) it's pretty easy:

      ruby-install ruby 2.1.5 -- CC=clang

and if you want to include all the patches listed here: [https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/blob/master/patchsets/ru...](https://github.com/wayneeseguin/rvm/blob/master/patchsets/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress)

      ruby-install ruby 2.1.5 -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/01-zero-broken-tests.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/02-improve-gc-stats.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/03-display-more-detailed-stack-trace.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/04-show-full-backtrace-on-stack-overflow.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/05-funny-falcon-stc-density.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/06-funny-falcon-stc-pool-allocation.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/07-aman-opt-aset-aref-str.patch -p https://raw.githubusercontent.com/skaes/rvm-patchsets/master/patches/ruby/2.1.5/railsexpress/08-funny-falcon-method-cache.patch -- CC=clang

and you can use it with [https://github.com/postmodern/chruby](https://github.com/postmodern/chruby) if you need to to switch between versions.

As for GC, I am not sure it makes much of a difference as it used to back in the days. Probably even less when 2.2 ships with incremental garbage collection. It always depends on the type of work your app does also.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I agree with most of the comments here that 44% faster sounds way too good to be true. Perhaps there is some micro-benchmark where this gain was perceived. A more through blog post to substantiate or disprove these performance gains would be welcome.

</comment><comment><USER7> It'd be really interesting to see the methodology used when gains like this are reported, because it's potentially really interesting stuff but without knowing what was measured and changed, it's hard to give it weight.

Which is a shame, because it's probably really useful.

i.e. what's the workload. what was the performance metric which improved. any detail you can give about the likely bottleneck of the system, etc.

</comment><comment><USER8> What, exactly, is faster? Why does this have 50 points when there is no content?

</comment><comment><USER9> >ruby >speed

ok.</comment>


Unwritten rules of calling, texting and social media - <AUTHOR> https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/02/22/15-unwritten-rules-calling-texting-and-social-media/2789056002/ <comment><USER2> Any rules?</comment>


Panic in iOS Land - <AUTHOR> http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/12/06/panic-in-ios-land/ <comment><USER2> I think JLG is missing a massive point.

1) porting apps isn't only helpful for windows phone, it also gets those apps on windows desktops and tablets. Though Windows phone is not a huge success, there are a lot of tablet/pcs running apps which are already made for ipads and such get a decent pass at running simply in the windows store.

2) Just because an app 'can' run on multiple platforms, doesn't mean it should. WORA has been promised forever, and quite honestly, has never really worked. But if I have an app that measures exposure to sunlight and passes that data to a web-app, it has no UI directly connected to it, and it is likely not useful on a tablet, but it is useful on a IoT device and on my phone. What about Angry Birds, why can't it run on phone, tablet, and XBox? Nobody says EVERY app has to run across all the platforms, just that you can run your apps on more than one platform. Pick the platforms that best suit your needs.

3) the comment about continuity and airplay ignores that fact that with the 'box with cables', I don't have multiple devices, I have a phone and a dock. That is quite different from having to have a phone and a matching desktop or tablet. Not saying continuity and airplay aren't any good, but they are just different.

4) paying people to build apps, when you're losing the war it isn't a horrible strategy, and if nobody takes advantage, it doesn't cost anything.</comment>


What's the next "big thing"? - <AUTHOR> http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/37387?nlid=4371&a=f

<comment><USER2> This is great. I really like the visualization of where there are gaps in the space for new technologies. (Happy to see I fall in a nice white space!) This sort of mapping makes a lot of sense for investors--hedge funds and asset managers use similar algorithms and maps in the investing world all the time. It only makes sense that the same tools available to the public market could be used in the private markets as well.

That said, I'm interested in the database of failed and successful companies which the group put together. I'd like to see how they account for things like founder personalities, the personal network/connections of the founders and early investors, and some of the other "soft" traits that can make a big impact on a new company. While it wouldn't be hard to fit these into an algorithm, I'm not sure if it would be easy to find reliable inputs for this. There are so many variables that can affect the ultimate success and failure of a startup. This to me would be a very difficult project to undertake. I'm sure the results of this are proprietary...</comment>