Ask HN: What is (is there something) wrong with me? - <AUTHOR> I am 20, in college, and majoring is mechanical engineering. I (used to) do some hacking (building web sites, wordpress themes, html, css, js) on the side. Started as a hobby that could help me make money in HS, and it picked up from there. I made some money, and I guess got high headed. This is a throwaway account, but I have been on HN for a while (1.5 yr+). Its a great community and a lot of what I have learned here has proven really helpful. I have read a fair share of posts from people that are in situations not as great as mine who have asked for help, advice, about life/depression/suicide, to whatnot. I have benefited a lot from some of the advice that has been doled out to introverts.
Back in school I thought I knew what I wanted to do, but now I am utterly clueless. I interned for a big company last summer, and utterly hated the experience, so much that I quit 5 weeks into the 10 week program. I was just uncomfortable with the whole experience, and I was very self conscious all the time, even though, I was working more efficiently, and delivering better work than my co-interns. (not to sound cocky, but true).
Here is my problem. I am a junior in college now, and I have no idea with regards to what I want to do. I have lost interest in classes (this actually happened a while back), but I do not want to/ cannot drop out, because I have no clue as to what I would do, so basically I am just dragging through school, and it all seems kinda pointless. I am Indian (expected to take care of my parents, sister, and be a responsible son) so a lot is expected of me, another reason that I cannot quit school. I haven't really been able to talk to my parents, and such about all of this, and other than that I am an introvert, and don't have much friends that I can talk to. I have a few friends in college from clubs, etc. but that is it, and I liked spending time alone, but now every-time I am by myself, I keep thinking about all of this ^^. that I have no freaking clue as to what I am doing with my life, and am essentially bleeding time. I do not enjoy my major, and my self esteem / self worth is at an all time low. I guess I could say that I am even losing all motivation to go to classes, and that isn't helping either. I run / workout for 45-60 minutes everyday, and that is the highlight of my day, because for a while I am able to feel good, but then this whole viscous cycle kicks in.
I have been to the college counseling center and that wasn't much help either because the lady I talked to the first time was just either stupid or trying to just waste my time. It wasn't beneficial, so I did repeat this process again with some other counselor, and though he was better, his suggestions still didn't help much. He suggested that I join the group counseling for international students, which was an utter waste of time.
Thing is that I am in control of most of my actions, just that my motivation is not there to kick in when I start to lose the grip on the situation, and start reassessing myself, and start the process of re-evaluating what I need to do. I don't know whether something is wrong with me, or whether this is something that is part of the process of entering adulthood, but life is in utter chaos, and I could use some advice/help. If you have been in a similar situation, or could help me figure out a process to get my life back on track, I would really appreciate it.
Thanks in anticipation.
*throwaway account
EDIT: US College <comment><USER3> Your biggest problem right now is you don't know where you want to go. Until you can figure that out you're better off dragging yourself through school so you have some kind of credential to live off of. You can always chase your passion once you find it.

Also, for what it's worth, you might want to look into counseling for depression. From the description of your life it seems like you're a likely candidate (unhappy except when you workout and have endorphins racing through your body). Depression can make you lose interest in even stuff are interested in so before you decide your previously chosen major is not interesting you should make sure it isn't depression talking.

<comment><USER4> and/or burn-out! Seems you took on a lot early and maybe it was too much too soon.

I understand that you may not be able to drop out. But could you defer your studies for a semester? Go for a cheap holiday. If your family are being difficult and don't support you then you can tell them your health and sanity are more important than not disappointing them. Stress that you are not dropping out, just doing some "field work".

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The inability to find any joy in anything ("anhedonia") is one of the markers for depression. Be on the lookout for others (increase or decrease in appetite; increase or decrease in sleep).

Depression can come in response to specific ("depressing") circumstances or events, and it can come from hormonal or biochemical conditions. Depending on cause, different professional routes may be helpful.

Other contributing conditions (e.g., social isolation; career confusion) may be addressed well be a counselor worth their salt. [ Keep in mind that how 'loudly' you complain about how awful you feel will affect how much the counselor accelerates (or not) getting you more significant/experienced assistance. ] The 'right' counselor should be able to convey to you that they take your issues seriously and that they genuinely care about you and finding solution(s) that work for you.

Friends can provide _some_ of the support and perspective that a professional counselor does, but usually not enough when you've really got yourself into a clinical depression. Plus a professional will have guidelines to know whether you are a candidate for referral to someone who can consider whether an anti- depressant might be worth trying. I'd encourage you to keep looking until you find a professional who's really an effective ally during these trying times.

 _Thinking of you_

<comment><USER6> I've been there. Take a look at your diet. If you aren't getting enough protein you may be low on certain neurotransmitters. Even if you are getting enough, there are some harmless supplements you might try to boost them back to normal levels.

I'm the kind of person that hates taking any pills or medications for anything, but 100mg of 5-HTP (turns into Serotonin) and small amounts of L-Tyrosine turned my life around at one point.

Vitamin D is another one that people are surprisingly deficient of--even if you get enough sunlight.

I really think that sometimes a person gets into an anhedonic state first, and then misattributes the feeling to "not liking my major/career/job/friends/etc."

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-life_crisis>

This comes up every couple of months here on HN:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1449823> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1537461> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1246200> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680054>

It gets better. Really.

<comment><USER8> Wow, I'd never heard of Quarter life crisis ... that article described many ways I've been feeling. Thanks for sharing. I'm a junior myself, and have been going through similar feelings this year. Call it burn-out, being tired of school, or whatever, but it's not fun.

So we can get past this, and then look forward to mid-life crisis, right? Joy! :)

<comment><USER7> Haha, exactly. Keep your eye on the prize: hair loss, weight gain, and buying yourself the car you are currently lusting for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's going to be tough on you and your family, but tradition be damned, follow your own path, not the one set out for you.

If this major doesn't interest you, if you can switch to one that does. To have these thoughts at your age is strange to me, you sound like someone imprisoned rather than a young person with their life ahead of them.

Look after yourself first, then worry about looking after others, and don't take social pressure created in different days than the current ones as limiting your ability to choose your own life.

The days of arranged marriages and career paths laid out by family are over. As an Indian person you will have to probably over come a significant amount of resistance in order to even be allowed to attempt to chart your own path, but even that permission is not theirs to give.

When I dropped out of highschool my family lamented that that was the end of my chances on a life worth living. I didn't hear my mom complaining when I put her on the payroll of my company to tide her over after she got ill (stroke) and was not able to work a normal job for a while.

Your life, your choices. There is nothing wrong with you.

best of luck!

<comment><USER10> > As an Indian person you will have to probably over come a significant amount > of resistance in order to even be allowed to attempt to chart your own path, > but even that permission is not theirs to give.

It's... not that easy.

Most people would agree that parents have a duty to take care of their children. India has a value system where children are expected to reciprocate when they grow up. Parents sacrifice a great deal for their children in India, and I'm not just speaking of financial aspects (though that can be substantial). In most families, the children, their education and their future success are the "grand projects" that the families' day to day lives revolve around. Even as a human unconditioned by any cultural idiosyncrasies, I think you do have a responsibility to treat them kindly.

However, this doesn't mean that you have to blindly adopt their notions of success. In my case, I had to negotiate with them to redefine _their_ ideas of a meaningful, fulfilling life so that I could be free.

<comment><USER11> The relationship you choose to have with your parentw and the career path you choose to take are two very different things. You guys seem to be confusing the two.

The #1 concern of Indian parents is their values and their kids' success.

Your career path is simply _one_ value. Many Indian parents want their kids to be engineers and doctors. You can try explaining them you're not interested in that. And finally, you can tell them to f-off and go do your own thing.

But does that mean you HAVE to abandon _all_ your values? HELL no. I still believe that my parents have as much right to any wealth I created as I do. I still believe I need to care for my parents when they age. I still believe in many of our quirky customs. In fact, if you can reassure your parents that you still care for some of the values, it can lighten the air. Parents think that _because_ you are going away from one of the values you are breaking away from all of them. It may be true. But not necessarily.

In my case, I told my parents that I wanted to take time off from school and move to San Francisco after I finished our summer at YC. My Dad was well primed about this. And yet, he could not come to terms with me actually doing this. So he asked "why do you want to goto San Francisco?". I was already upset and the general tone on the dinner table was pretty heated. I carelessly replied "because I feel like it." At the time, it came across as rude though I didn't mean it that way. Over time, my family understood the innocent nature of those words.

The next day and over time, it made _a lot_ more sense to my family about where I was coming from. Likewise, at the time I did not understand my family's concerns. Over time, I did. I realized that I did not so much want to abandon all my values; that I still cared very deeply for my parents; and that my parents had some legit concerns.

Just because I want a career different than what my family wants does not mean there are deeper value differences. Oh, and when you are broke and need money, you can mostly count on your Indian parents to bail you out if they are slightly capable to:) Time. And again.

\--Child of two Indian doctors

<comment><USER12> don't abandon ANY of your values.

But make sure that they're YOUR values.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm not a therapist, but it seems to me that you should focus on what you're passionate about. It sounds like you're having a problem with other people (society, parents, etc.) telling you what's important in life and you're not buying into it. Good for you! It sounds like you're in the midst of a quarter- life crisis (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter-life_crisis>).

Stop thinking that "what to do with your life" is a choice that you have to make. Just do stuff. When something doesn't make you happy, drop it. When something does make you happy, double-down on it. When it stops being fun and starts being work, find something else to do.

The one thing that jumped out to me is that your daily exercise routine energizes you and makes you feel good. Why not pursue that? Find a way to do more of what you love and less of what you don't. Instead of being paralyzed by feeling like you're being pressured to make choices, be excited that the world is open in front of you and you have the ability to do whatever you want, everyone else be damned.

<comment><USER14> stevenp's response inspired me:

>Stop thinking that "what to do with your life" is a choice that you have to make.

Further, your major doesn't lock you into a particular career the rest of your life. One of my best CS mentors majored in film. He graduated, got a job in the film industry, and couldn't stand it. A friend gave him a job swapping backup tapes in a server room, and he got into computers from there.

Your experience with the job was a great way to find out a path that you _don't_ want to head down. Don't think of it as a failure on your part.

>Instead of being paralyzed by feeling like you're being pressured to make choices, be excited that the world is open in front of you and you have the ability to do whatever you want, everyone else be damned.

It sounds to me like The Future is ruining your present. Instead of asking "What can I do to prepare myself for tomorrow?" ask "What can I do to make today better?"

Luckily, a college campus usually has tons of answers to that question, especially outside of classes. Go to one of those billboards plastered with announcements, and see if there's an event that strikes your interest. Then go to it! Student groups are a great way to dabble in all kinds of things without making a lifelong commitment to them. (If you still don't know what to pick, I find if I help others, my own problems mostly work themselves out.)

Living in the present isn't being irresponsible. It's taking care of yourself so that you're prepared for whatever comes in the future.

I should also note that counselling is far more effective if you continue to meet with the counselor on a regular basis. A counselor's main value isn't giving out advice, it's helping you to understand yourself differently. A good counselor isn't always easy to find, but if you think there's some hope, it may be worth a few sessions before you give up on them.

A lot of us have been where you are. Things _will_ get better. And please do follow up with us. We care.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Hey man, I've been through pretty much everything you list here. Drop me an email if you'd like to talk. zaid.farooqui at gmail

I too found myself in the school's counseling center at 19, depressed, with assignments due, feeling physically and mentally ill. I got my idea for the next startup few days later and soon entered some of the best time of my life. A similar pattern repeated few months ago(I am now 23).

I too am Indian so I understand some of the "cool" things we inherit from our culture :) Happy to chat with you if you'd like and help you figure out how to get out of this crappy zone.

</comment><comment><USER15> Sounds like you need to fall in love. With a girl.

Note: This will solve none of you problems. But it certainly won't be boring either.

Additional note: Whoever convinced you that your life has a track and you need to figure it out did you a serious disservice. It is your life. Loving and serving those dear to you can be an amazing thing. You'll be no help to them if you are miserable.

<comment><USER16> I've always been of the opinion that you won't be able to make someone else happy if you can't make yourself happy. Depending on another person for happiness is guaranteed misery. Find your own way to enjoy life, and try to find someone to share it with. Don't make someone else your lifeline to being emotionally stable.

<comment><USER17> For what it's worth, I didn't _make_ my wife my emotional lifeline. She truly wanted to help me. It could be luck, but it seems more basic than that: people naturally want to help others they care about.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Work harder.

I'm in a similar situation: 8th semester 5th year Biomedical Engineering major (took a co-op that I quit), Chinese, had to tell parents I'm not trying for med school anymore, took about 3 years. I took the MCATs last year anyway and I'm still satisfying med school requirements to "keep my options open" but mostly just to satisfy my parents.

I have no idea what I'm going to do after college though, but I'm not too scared. I have a few options but it's a matter of time to see which direction things go in.

Why work harder? Because your JOB right now is to figure out what you want to do with your life, not just job, that's your LIFE right now. So go all out, try things until you fall in love (or so you fall in love?).

As for losing grip, just remember that nobody knows what they're doing, and everything will be alright in the end. Everyone's looking for happiness, but you're well enough to be on HN and you live in the US, you almost have to try to fail at life in this country.

If all else fails, try this book: [http://www.pobronson.com/index_what_should_I_do_with_my_life...](http://www.pobronson.com/index_what_should_I_do_with_my_life.htm)

It doesn't have any answers, but by listening to other people's stories, you find that it's totally okay to do random crazy things with your life, and things turn out alright more often than not.

</comment><comment><USER19> If there is someone who has figured their lives at 20, believe me s/he is a) an exception, or b) thinking wrong. Study a lot, make lots of friends, and get laid a lot.

</comment><comment><USER20> "Here is my problem. I am a junior in college now, and I have no idea with regards to what I want to do."

I don't have a lot of advice, but I'm fairly certain that this is extremely normal, so don't get too down on yourself about it. At least you figured that out at 20 years old, instead of 40+.

</comment><comment><USER21> I have to agree with some of the other posters that the expectations you're butting up against are very likely complicating things drastically. "It's so hard when I have to, and so easy when I want to." ~Annie Gottlier

The expectation to provide, the expectation to have more friends (possibly, obviously I'm reading into your comment), the expectation to follow-through with whatever you're currently doing...

Life is definitely supposed to be chaotic at this point on your journey- it's genetically built in- it allows you to do things no one has ever done before- it's a steady pull away from mediocrity. Some people let it pull them into prisons and homeless shelters, and others let it pull them into great things. What you're currently doing is basically trying to ignore it as best as you can.

It _will_ pass eventually- that pull to go out and chaotically find your own passion (note I'm not talking about being hedonistic or bumming around Europe - I'm talking about making things or doing things that you feel tap into your very best qualities and things that stretch them). Don't get to the point in your life where the drive to strike out in your own direction starts becoming silent only to think "well, why _didn't_ I?"

I've never met anyone that regretted trying to live life more fully (except for those with poor definitions of fully. Hint- if it feels wrong at a deep level it's a less fully lived life). Sooo.... Channel the urges, embrace the chaos, do something amazing. And, ironically, your family may be fine with the support you end up giving. Anyway, we're looking forward to what you can make of this.

</comment><comment><USER22> If you don't enjoy anything in mechanical engineering you should probably choose a different major or course for your life, if your college is cheap (if you are in India that probably isn't the case anymore) it is only another 3 or less years (maybe less if you change into civil or another engineering that has similar pre reqs). But if you enjoy a few subjects, like maybe vibrations or controls or mechanics, it might be worth it to stay and just apply or work your way to a job into that category.

I lost motivation in my ME classes as well and the best thing I did was cut down in course load, it gave me a break and was well worth it for an extra semester added on to the degree.

Other than that engineering coursework sucks, you do it because you like learning and you like solving problems, sometimes it takes extra time and sometimes you burn out but if it is what you want to do you keep at it. Just be aware that a single internship isn't necessarily what a job will be like.

I don't know how much help that all is but maybe something good will be in there.

</comment><comment><USER23> The first of the 'Four Noble Truths' which Buddha taught was 'Life is suffering'. At least that is what I heard. I was where you were, and I made many poor choices. But I have been lucky, and have been able to find a path that I am comfortable with. 18 years after starting a Chem Eng. degree, I obtained a Computer Engineering degree. Along the way I learned a lot. One of the most powerful tools I have found is gratitude. Do a little statistics. Determine how well you did in life's lottery. I still have to remind myself to get back to work, to pay back the universe. anyhow, as someone else said, feel free to email me, or call for that matter. I can tell you how much better it is to be young and aimless than it is to be old and wistful.

</comment><comment><USER24> I see a lot of the same feelings and issues that I have had. I still haven't found a decent way to deal with a lot of the issues. I sometimes use alcohol to forget my issues. That's bad, but screw it. I also use to go out and try to get laid all the time in hopes of maybe feeling like someone cared or trying to have a feeling of "love". I dropped out of school a few semesters ago because I went from being in an honors society to failing every class.

The things that have helped me are the little things. I find something that I have a passion for and then go at it 200%. One thing that I have noticed is that I am highly competitive. Everything turns into a pissing contest or a game. Have you tried something like that? Apply game mechanics to your life.

You are just depressed right now and you said that working out makes you feel better. Might I suggest writing a program to track your workout sessions? However you need to only allow yourself to work on it in your spare time. If its something that helps you can use it to motivate yourself, ie you aren't allowed to code till after you study/do homework and quiz yourself. Watch out for half a __your work.

The final thing I will leave you with is something someone told me when I posted a thread like this, if you live your life in misery the you will only remember that misery and you will miss opportunities. It went something like that. I don't remember it too well. Well good luck and cheer up, you're not the only person that feels the same.

</comment><comment><USER25> I used to feel the same way about college. The thing is, the majority of undergraduate courses are not interesting and for an intelligent person a lot of the time spent in them is wasted. I view them as hoops that you need to jump through to get your college degree, which I believe is worth it. I don't think there's a way to make them interesting - you just have to get through them.

To improve your college experience, figure out what you want to do with your time outside of class. Specifically, I would look at what professors are doing, whether inside your department or not. Smart, successful professors solve interesting problems, and those problems may or may not be interesting to you if you take a shot at them. See if you can sign on as a part time employee - professors that are doing well often have grant money that can support something like this. Programming knowledge really helps, especially in departments where programming knowledge isn't common.

If you spend some time in a research group and find it dreadful, it's easy to duck out and try another. Try and find people who will pay you something and give you a degree of independence, and give it a month or two - see if it's something you can see continuing to work on.

I view this - not what classes you take or your grades, but _what you do_ \- as the important part of college. If you can keep up decent, 3.0+ grades, but have worked on interesting things, it looks much better to future employers/grad school admission committees/coworkers than if you get that 4.0.

</comment><comment><USER26> A resource that has been of great help in staving off these feelings of helplessness (they come and go, and are always intense and overwhelming) has been Cal Newport's blog at <http://calnewport.com/blog>.

Some of his biggest ideas: \- passion is not something we discover but something we earn or build over a long period of time. \- Choose one thing that interests you (even if its a 'silly' interest) and has the potential to become a rare and valuable skill about which you could one day be passionate. \- Pursue that through undergrad and after, until you really have a rare and valuable skill. \- Leverage that skill to live a remarkable life.

His most recent post might be especially relevant: [http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/10/16/the-passion-trap- how-t...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/10/16/the-passion-trap-how-the- search-for-your-lifes-work-is-making-your-working-life-miserable). I have been writing about similar ideas at <http://joshrule.com/blog/category/passion>.

Again, you aren't alone. These feelings are common even in many people who generally know exactly what they want in life. The important thing is to learn how to deal with them and keep them to a minimum. Cal's blog provides some great steps toward doing that.

</comment><comment><USER27> > I interned for a big company last summer, and utterly hated the experience, > so much that I quit 5 weeks into the 10 week program.

I'm curious why this was so.

Sometimes I try something and hate it because of the social experience that accompanied it. Like if you go to a big company, and nobody reaches out to you, and you spend the time alone, it can form a very strong mental association: big company = loneliness. But maybe it's just that company. Maybe you'll later try working at a new company, and make a couple of great friends, and decide that mechanical engineering is your life calling and this new company is the home/family you were born to have.

Quality of life has very little to do with the exact type of work you do. On the other hand, it can have a lot to do with the lifestyle constraints entailed by that type of work, like the amount of travel or face-to-face interaction involved.

The point is, look at factors surrounding the work the you love or hate. If you have a particularly good day, look back at what happened that day. Did you have a big stretch of quiet time? Did you get to be around certain people you like? What did you eat? Did you get recognition for something you did? These perhaps seemingly-irrelevant details have a lot more to do with your motivation and job satisfaction than your job title or salary.

</comment><comment><USER28> For what it's worth, have you considered joining ROTC (assuming you are a US citizen)? If you still haven't figured out what you want to do, it's worth a serious thought because you'll build some amazing friendships and, at the very least, find what you're passionate about.

It's not for everyone, and there is always the possibility you may have to deploy (for engineers, this is a very remote possibility; I can't recall any engineers being deployed, except for a volunteer who was working on a Kuwait project). But you will definitely learn a lot about yourself, and you will build camaraderie with your cadre. Oh yeah, your mornings will begin at 6am for PT...

Caveat: an officer commitment with the Air Force will run four years (and you may be able to transfer to Reserve or Guard if you do figure you want to do something else), unless you decide to be a pilot, which your commitment will be 8-10 years. I realize HN is not the most pro-military group, and I strongly discourage any HN reader from enlisting (at a minimum, you should be an officer). But you do build lots of bonds as a servicemember. And if you're in AF or Navy, you're relatively out of harm's way; you probably have a higher chance of dying in Philadelphia at night (okay, maybe that's not the best example).

</comment><comment><USER29> Just wanted to chime in...other people have said it already, but I'll say it too: there is absolutely nothing wrong with you - your feelings are very normal.

I got out of school a few years ago, and I'll tell you that my sophomore year was hellish, too. Nothing seemed to make sense and I felt very distraught.

It's good that you're exercising, keep it up. That will help you from sinking in too deep.

It does sound like you're at a real crossroads. You're seeing the limitations of what your parents handed down to you, but it's hard to know what to do instead.

I'm not Indian, but I know how you feel about family pressure...it's one of the most miserable things to be going through. I won't say "tell your family to get lost", because that's pretty hard for most of us to do. But, I can tell you from my own experience that it IS possible to love your family very much without living up to all their expectations. At times, it may look and feel like you're breaking hearts - and you may be - but it's well worth it in the end. That's been my experience.

It's easy for me to wax poetic about things you may not read, so feel free to drop me a line if you want to chat. It's this username at a well-known mail service provided by Google. :)

Be optimistic - always be positive! If you feel that good things are about to happen to you, they will.

</comment><comment><USER30> Just.do.what.you.fuckin.want.

Seriously. Life is all about enjoying yourself.

I'm 21 now. Similar things used to hit me 1 year ago very often. Now that happens just once in a while. How I fixed this? I started enjoying myself whenever I can. What I changed? I stopped caring what I "should" do.

Go to library and read Orwell's "Down and out in Paris and London". And Zappo's "Delivering Happiness", at least the very last chapter. I believe those should help you quite a lot.

</comment><comment><USER31> In my experience, it unlikely to find something new by following the same paths. Perhaps you will find joy in mechanical engineering at some point in the future, but you are unlikely to reach that point unless you change how you are living now.

If your perceived sense of self-worth doesn't improve or worsens, your brain will undergo physical changes that result in a state of clinical depression, which is defined far more by a lack of passion/engagement than by feelings of sadness. You will remain entirely in control of your actions, but the pool of available actions will become smaller and smaller as this continues. Eventually you will reach a point where you no longer can keep up the facade of control and your academics will shift from something that you don't enjoy doing to something that you can't keep up with. As someone intelligent you are likely to rationalize this disengagement / drop in grades by saying that the classes aren't worth your time (or other self-defeating thoughts). If this happens, you need to find an counselor who can be the mirror that tells you what a self-handicapping idiot you are being.

Or maybe this won't happen and you will graduate with honors and receive job offers from multiple companies. Things will likely change that will lift you past your current opinion on life. Often one good thing leads to another and you would be amazed at how quickly your perception on your future can shift after meeting a remarkable new friend(both guys AND girls). If something academic comes into your life that interests you, embrace it and do not let go.

In my opinion you should take a year off, or at least a semester. I did that after high school and it was the best decision of my life. Find a place to get started, tap into your webdev skills, there is great demand for them. I found a webdev job on craigslist for a company in Costa Rica where I had a hour-long surf-breaks at hightide. This experience of work as both productivity and play redefined how I defined 'success' in my own life. Pick a place that you have a passing interest in visiting, go to craigslist and look for internships/jobs that will pay enough to cover your room and board there and get the hell out of dodge.

You will go back to finish your degree when you are ready and want it or you will be happier in your new place. Win either way. Your family wants you happy and successful, neither of which are correlated with regretful career decisions.

I hope all goes well for you.

</comment><comment><USER32> As someone who has struggled with some of the same things, I can sympathize. However, I really think you need to toughen up a bit. Not everything that you do will be laden with meaning or will feel terribly fulfilling. It seems like you want to feel something deep and meaningful as a sign that you're on the right track in life. I've only had that feeling after putting in years of work and dealing with uncertainty, periods of depression and frustration, and generally just hanging in there.

Speaking for myself, those times that I have dropped out of things, I've felt regret and it hasn't helped my confidence. It probably would have been better to hunker down for five more weeks and deal with the discomfort.

Chances are you do know what you're passionate about and you're simply not listening or you've tamped that part of yourself down. You're obviously bright and introspective, when's the last time that you really felt excited about learning something in class or starting a project? Do you daydream about music, art, or architecture?

Anyway, good luck.

</comment><comment><USER33> If your business take off, drop of colleague. If your education will get you a $25K/year job and your side freelancing can make $70K, then leave. After all, colleague just increase the odds of getting a job and never guarantee one.

Your family is afraid because they don't know that little screen. That's their culture. But since you make money, it doesn't matter. If you make money and spend for your family expenses they won't really bother you and your choice will just be "their".

People in your social circle. They really don't care about you (okay, unless the old high school friend, may be one or two). Nobody really care whether you are a high school drop out or a ph.D. If you have money, you'll buy anything you can afford and you'll please yourself and your family with it. Don't care about what others say. Do they have an extensive Internet culture and knowledge to speak about decisions?

Take the most secure path. Think well before making decision not to regret later. Don't be afraid and don't care about what other people are saying.

</comment><comment><USER34> Take time away from college - without quitting - so that you can step back from the experience you've just had and put it in perspective.

The thing that is missing (which I also had trouble with in college) is the particular motivation that will drive your career and coursework in _any_ direction. Some people have the good fortune to know something - even a little - about what they're doing almost from day one. But if you can't find it, or can't declare it out loud, all your decisions get filled with doubts; it becomes easier to drift as long as possible, because you're just waiting for something to happen.

Coming up with a long-term personal project - something really exploratory that uses your skills, tries to make money, or otherwise serves to direct your work life - is probably the best way; take time away to get it started. Then you can return to school and continue with it as studies permit.

</comment><comment><USER35> Tell your parents and family that you love them and want them to be proud of your choices in life, but that you're (insert more determined way of saying "just not feeling it right now").

You're enjoying your work out, so plan something major and physical. Hike the Pacific Crest Trail [1] or part of it. That'd chew up some time and give you space to clear your head.

I felt my parents had high expectations of me but was disillusioned and disinterested when I started university (engineering). I quit within six months of starting but hid it from my parents, truth eventually came out, and it took me another year or so to really find my place. I worked a year or two somewhere mediocre, built up some freelance work on the side and then started the business I still run today. That was in 1998.

1\. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Crest_Trail>

</comment><comment><USER36> No. how hard is for you to switch majors? US students do that frequently, it's not considered a bad thing.

<comment><AUTHOR> It is actually not hard. I am in the US. I was initially Electrical Engineering, switched to Computer Science, but then decided I could learn all the cs I wanted to know on my own, so I switched to Mech. Engg as I thought I might enjoy learning how to make stuff and use the water jet, 3D printer, and other machines (I still do). I just dislike taking classes that I think are going to be of no practical use to me. What scares me is the lack of alternatives right now, because I am pretty positive that I will not accept / get a job after I graduate.

<comment><USER36> Well, business couldn't hurt - may not be as enjoyable, but it would help you bring your ideas to market, and give you a wider range of career options.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> You're not unique in this and basically have two choices: continue what you're doing, push through it, and see it as your adult responsibility. Ultimately many jobs are like that, you don't love them, but they bring home the pay- check. The second option would be to do a search for what you really want to do. One great book with tons of bios of people who have and turned out happier for it is: "what should I do with my life?" In the end, you'll probably settle for a combination of both. Lastly, it may be that you over-pushed yourself and burned out. That can lead to similar negative feelings about what you are doing now. It may be a good idea to approach a medical professional and discuss symptoms and solutions.

</comment><comment><USER38> I understand the chaos you are going through.

Given that you are intelligent, perhaps some mental exercises are in order. Granted your emotions are not where they "should be" but you can try to reason them out using logic and realize they can mislead you.

First is the issue of perspective. The pressure you are feeling is probably normal given the societal, familial, and personal issues you have. Realize that this pressure will lessen over time as you gain more mastery over your life; resolve now to wait out this pressure, as it will take time to resolve.

Second is the issue of control, or loss of control rather, that you are feeling. This is completely normal, but it is still unsettling. Perhaps writing down a list of things that bother you, then figuring out which issues are easiest for you to change, would be a good idea.

Third is the issue of being introverted.

You recognize that you are introverted; while I do not expect you to ever become an extroverted fighter pilot / celebrity / jock, there ARE ways to remain yourself, yet learn stratagems to better interact with people that do not involve being false.

I recommend you view starting and then making conversation as a pleasant game, the rules of which you do not yet fully know. There are many ways and methods to learn this, find one that works for you.

Consider that there may be cases where your being introverted comes off to other people as being standoffish, nerdy or difficult to talk to, or even just plain dull and boring. There is a way to be yourself that also results in people being comfortable being around you.

Lastly, I do recommend finding a counselor; but, do not go to the school ones as they are probably useless. If you can, try to find someone older who has gone through similar things as you - since you mention that your family is traditionally Indian, perhaps a local successful Indian businessman, engineer, etc. would be willing to help be your mentor. Any chance a relative or family friend who will be discreet about what you tell him, is available?

Best of luck in any case.

</comment><comment><USER39> Hi,

I've been there. Almost droping out of school, missing classes, having few friends (most of my long time friends lived in other countries) and couldn't share it with my family because they wouldn't understand, and had their own problems.

How did I get out of it ? I tried and failed launching three startups. I wanted to focus the whole energy on achieving something .. and even if I failed to, this kept me "alive".

I think you should find something (or someone by luck:) ) you really love and focus everything on it.

As a conclusion, I would like to share with you two things :

\- "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield" from Ulysses

\- And this speech by Steve Jobs : <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc>

</comment><comment><USER40> Well, if you are frustrated with College anyway, you might send an application to Peter Thiel's dropout funding:

[http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/27/peter-thiel-drop-out-of- sch...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/27/peter-thiel-drop-out-of-school/)

Starting a startup gives you immediately a lot of freedom, a focus on what you like and exciting new challenges and it will also get alot of new people in your life - even if introverted. Afresh start and clean cut is somethign I found incredibly invigorating. And aas young as you are, the risks are pretty negligible.

</comment><comment><USER41> I was in a very similar situation. I was 21, studying mechanical engineering, not sure what to do with my life, but had high expectations. One book that helped me a lot was "I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was": [http://www.amazon.com/Could-Anything-Only-Knew- What/dp/04405...](http://www.amazon.com/Could-Anything-Only-Knew- What/dp/0440505003/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288273312&sr=8-1)

The book sounds corny, but it can help you get a better perspective on your life. Make sure to actually do the exercises.

</comment><comment><USER42> I'm 28 now and just recently got through almost the exact situation you are describing (diploma came in the mail yesterday).

So yes, I started off at college in Computer Science, figured out after about a year and a half that while programming is awesome (as evidenced partly by the fact that I hang around on this web site), the CS major at my school was significantly more hardcore about it than what I had imagined, and there was no way I was going to get myself to finish it. On top of that, although for the first freshman semester I had managed to be pretty social, by year 1.5 I was didn't really have many friends anymore other than a few people in my dorm, who were more like acquaintances than anything else. What I did to get out of that mess was largely trial and error, but I'll tell you what I can and hopefully it will help.

First thing I did was switch out of Computer Science. If you find that you've lost passion for your major, and you're certain about it, you'll be better off finding something you are passionate about, or at least somewhat interested in. I switched to Creative Writing, but continued taking CS courses on the side as part of a plan to get CS as a minor, but I didn't end up following through with that part. Of course now, having received my Creative Writing diploma, I'm not actually as passionate about that as I originally thought I was.

So while finding something you're passionate about is important, the bigger part is the self-esteem/social issue. I know that a lot of people will tell you that being introverted is fine and okay, but if you're introverted and your self-esteem is low, then that puts you between a rock and a hard place. This was the hardest issue for me to crack, and it took me the next 4.5 years out of my 6 total years in college (the latter 2 mostly part time).

Eventually what I did is that I also went to the counseling dept at my university and I was fortunate enough that it actually was somewhat helpful. It sucks that yours seems to have let you down, so my suggestion would be to try to ask them for some kind of referral to an external counselor, hopefully within your health insurance plan if you have one. Having a real live person that you can talk to about this stuff on a semi-weekly basis can be invaluable. I moved on from my college counselor to someone at a local clinic, and I still go to see them even though I would consider myself now to be in a much better headspace.

The second thing related to this that I would recommend is to try to make new friends by trying out some different clubs. I was able to finally find a solid group of real life friends almost by accident, when a new roommate suggested I go to the tai chi class he was going to. I figured what the hell, but now the people I met at that class are among my closest friends. The important difference is that these aren't just 'entertainment friends' -- people you hang out with for fun or going out. If for whatever reason I end up back in a self-esteem pit, I have no doubt that they would come over to my house and figure out how to get me out of it. Ironically, the 'find friends by joining clubs' thing was one of the things my parents had been suggesting to me since year 1.5.

The last thing I want to say, and maybe the most important thing to impress on you, is that there is no 'quick fix' for this kind of situation. It took me 4.5 years almost to get from the realize-there-is-a-problem stage to where I am now. It doesn't have to take as long for you, but don't expect to get this completely turned around in 6 weeks, or even 6 months.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER43> Start a business. Or buy a motorbike.

<comment><USER44> Totally. When I am really buried deep under responsibilities & unhappy, I still get to enjoy my bike, and I get to think to myself "well, things suck- but dude, I own a _motorcycle_!!"

It's coincidentally one of the reasons I don't, unlike my friends, strongly miss my childhood. It was cool and all, but dude- I didn't have a motorcycle.

<comment><USER43> I love your attitude mate! Why do people get hung up relishing their past? My future just keeps getting better. I mean, back then, didn't have the cutest daughter in the world. The past was good. Present is great. Future is frickin awesome. Bring it on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Hang in there, things do get better, but they do take time. I went through the same thing (Indian/US college/0 Interest in my major and couldn't change). I'm 28 now and left the states to work in a finance firm in India.

Having a crappy internship is positive in one way - you know something you DON'T like. Figuring out what you don't like is important, so don't disregard its significance.

You also have some obvious good signs which are worth encouraging: 1\. You are fighting and trying to figure out your moves. A lot of life is iterative, so keep on trying, its a habit that will hold you in good stead. 2\. You exercise - great habit right there. 3\. You seem to have had a decent look at the situation which is a good start at figuring things out.

Try volunteering and helping out with an NGO. Helps give you drive and sounds like something that will help fill up that purpose void. \- You may not get purpose from your education/work, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to get it from there. Do other things you enjoy, it helps in getting through stuff.

From my personal experience, some of the things that helped me out were:

1\. Diet - Sugar and carbs help a lot; feeling low led to missing meals which led to feeling low. Having a pick me up treat or something sweet often completely changed my day. Its come to the point that feeling really low often means that I have been pushing myself too hard and have neglected myself - <USER2> no no. (Do note - I am NOT recommending binging, bringing me to pt 3)

1\. Not taking myself too seriously when I was low and thinking about stuff. When you are feeling low, do note that you are NOT an unbiased observer. Take your worst case scenarios with a grain of salt.

3\. Learning how your body operates - This was big for me. It took me a long while to learn how to respond to my needs them and take care of them. But once I did, it helped me understand myself and the situations which I need to create to be effective.

Pt 2 was important because it helped reduce the build up of self doubt, which then lets me focus on building myself up and getting on with figuring out what would make me happy next.

This stuff isn't going to solve your problems, but it should be useful in moving towards solving it. Hang in there!

(You could sing "all is well" in case you want to let loose :P)

</comment><comment><USER46> It's the "curse of the x0s"; people tend to take stock of their lives when they're near 20, 30, 40, 50 etc. and can be quite harsh with themselves during this period of time.

Have a look at Steve Jobs's Stanford commencement address on YouTube. The theme is "connect the dots".

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

Are you still able to use the skills you picked up and make a decent living out of it? Why not develop that further?

</comment><comment><USER47> Find your passion. This may take some searching, but staying in school is wasting your time. You're young, with no responsibilities (and hopefully minimal debt). Your family can take care of themselves, so focus on you.

Quit school. You can always come back later. Try new things, meet new people. Move. Keep searching until you find IT. And then pour all your soul into becoming the best.

</comment><comment><USER48> Continue with school, it's generally necessary in the States (I don't know about India, though).

Now, I'm basing what I'm about to say on my own experience. It looks like, in part, you may be experiencing burn out. The next break you can safely take (Christmas break? Summer break?), relax. Just ... stop.

Also, what happened in this corporate work environment that made you hate it so much?

</comment><comment><USER49> > _utterly hated the experience_

I understand you hated the whole experience, but what specifically made you feel that way?

<comment><AUTHOR> It was repetitive, boring, and to an extent felt like we were interns just because the company needed to show interns.

Also I couldn't stand being in the office for 8 hours, dressed up in clothes that I'd rather not wear. It was pretty stuffy. And most of the other interns were just too satisfied with wasting their times.

The allocated work could be completed in less than half of the time. Initially, I would ask my supervisor for more work, but I guess he got irritated, and instead of assigning more real work said go hang out with the other employees, and learn from them.

I initially tried talking to random employees, and try to figure out stuff to say, but after 5-7 minutes I'd run out of things to say, and go back to doing my own stuff.

<comment><USER50> I don't want to sound like I am defending your employer, but I just want to provide another perspective with the sincere wish to help you:

* Unfortunately internship does not reflect real work environment. In a "real job" there's always that 20% of stuff we hate to do but it needs to get done (this is also true in start-ups), while 80% is moderate-to-cool stuff. In an internship pretty much 100% sucks, but maybe you were expecting a lot more of cool stuff to do?

* It sounds like your supervisor didn't have enough time to handle/train you. Assigning work to new employees (not only interns) always require a certain amount of internal training. The job of an intern is not to complete work, but to learn. It looks like he asked you to see other employees so you could learn from them first, before getting more work. This is a common practice, it's called "shadowing". Did you learn anything from the employees you observed?

* The clothing and stuff... It's stupid but sometimes it's necessary to follow certain rituals so you "fit in" (that's also true for start-ups or any other social structure). Eventually you will earn the "privilege" to dress-up as you wish.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> _"Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life. The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don't."_

— Mary Schmich

</comment><comment><USER52> "Every warrior of light has, at least once, believed that he was not a warrior of light." -- Paulo Coelho, "Manual of the Warrior of Light"

In the dark and gray parts of my life that book helped me realize which direction the light and colors were.

</comment><comment><USER53> 1\. Nothing is wrong with you.

2\. Read this: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1647146>

3\. Don't ever settle. It's better to be unhappy and searching than indifferent and resigned.

</comment><comment><USER54> Remember your are awesome. :) <http://www.awesomenessreminders.com/>

</comment><comment><USER55> "I have no freaking clue as to what I am doing with my life" -> at 20, that's totally normal, don't worry about it.

</comment><comment><USER56> i started checking HN thing not sure what to except... saw the typical tech stuff as expected, until I came across your posting.

i admire your honesty and willingness to share with the community. forget the school counselors, i think you need to find real life mentors. it sounds like you have started some relationships here. in my mind, choosing a career path that makes you happy is the best thing that you can do for your family both emotionally and financially. it sounds like you are very talented and you just need to figure out what environment you thrive in. below is my story. contact me if i can help you think through things. firstname.lastname@example.com

i have a different background in terms of my interests (e.g., fashion, finance). however, i come from the stereotypical korean-american immigrant family and also have the obligation to eventually support my parents or at least i plan to because i want to.

i've gone back and forth in my education/career flipping from traditional/stable jobs to things a bit more risky. i rebelled early on to go to fashion school despite getting in to the normal academic programs. i eventually left to do a dual major in design and economics at ucla. post grad, i worked at one of the top i-banks which my parents didn't understand because it didn't have to do with law or medicine. once they understood and respected it, i took a 50% pay cut to to work for a retailer, which they thought was ridiculous because i left a job others coveted and paid well. after b-school i found the "perfect" investing job that combined my interests in retail and finance and was stable... but i was miserable. to make a long story short, i'm starting up a business and it brings together all of my experience and everything i'm passionate about. i'm scared and tired, but i have never been more motivated. my parents think i'm crazy, but i think they now trust me to figure things out.

in conclusion, i changed majors and studied at 4 different undergrad universities (including studying abroad - which i highly recommend) and have changed career paths multiple times. in retrospect each phase was worthwhile and has shaped me. throughout all this, i took risks when i did because i didn't want to live life with regrets wondering "what if"

my perspective is that you're in undergrad once and you should take full advantage of everything it has to offer. you have the rest of your life to work or do whatever else. perhaps get involved with clubs that interest you or volunteer? figure out who inspires you and what you are passionate about. you have a lot to look forward to and things will get better.

</comment><comment><USER57> I've been through something similar, add me on skype "abinoda" if you'd like to talk.

</comment><comment><USER58> I am 27, was once in a position very similar to yours and dropped out between my sophomore and junior year in high school.

I have advice on a couple of different fronts.

As for college, your major, whatever.. if school is free / heavily subsidized then I would go ahead and stick it out until you have something else you'd rather be doing, then weight the cost/benefit of not having a degree vs how long it would take you to get it.

However, if school is costing you money, unless you're at a very good school and/or planning on doing graduate level work, just drop out. Degrees just aren't worth that much, especially if you don't _know_ you are going to use it.

You absolutely have to drop the social pressure thing. You definitely can quit school. You can be weak about it now and wake up when you're 50 and realize you wished you had done your own thing, or just realize at some point you have to make your own decisions.

You're 20, you are allowed to be a kid. Take care of your body and mind, don't do any permanent damage, but beyond that man, fucking live it up.

If the main thing hanging over your head is the social/family pressure, just shrug it. Be loving and warm to your parents as much as possible, but ultimately you are going to be better off drinking beers for two years as a beach bum than spending two years trudging through some major that bores you.

There is a considerable value to life experience that you can get as a young independent kid who has a pretty open mind sort of wandering around. It doesn't happen often, most of the really smart people either go insane or take the express route to being successful through traditional channels.

Obviously as an entrepreneur there is a third option, but unless you have that drive you won't succeed anyway. If you have that drive, follow it, otherwise loaf around, learn what's interesting and be poor.

Like I said, I am 27. I dropped out with very disappointed friends and family, some of whom still hold it against me to varying degrees. Starting less than 6 months ago I got my first 'real' job, a devels salary, etc. I pretty much let every burden I felt I had completely get ignored. To some detriment to be sure, and I don't recommend you exactly do that. But because of my experiences I think I fundamentally react to authority, bills, social pressure, etc etc in much healthier rational way than I did before.

What I want to express is the intangible benefit to having thrown tradition to the wind and being independent.

What you lose in $$ not pushing forward hard in life on some relentless path to success you gain in wisdom. As you get older, maybe get a wife, get more expensive tastes, get used to nicer cars, nicer places to live, your monthly nut gets higher and higher, that rat race gets tighter and tighter.

Many people go till they have a midlife crises to even take a step back and consider their lives, most people in their mid 30s couldn't do it even if they wanted to.

But, you, you're young, you probably have little to no responsibility, and you're a smart kid. Get some wisdom, see if the rat race is even for you at all, take some lsd in the woods and hang out with gutter punks spanging your pocket change.

Most people don't even have happy lives.. if you feel yourself going into a shitty one, take a step back and just stop for a bit. See what happens.

</comment><comment><USER59> You're wasting your time, energy, your life, and your money (or your parents money) by dicking around in college that you don't care for.

You can't let your family run your life, or you'll always be miserable. Decide on your own if you will support them. And then do it with your whole heart. Don't sit there and tell us you "have" to because it's "expected."

Don't stay in college just because you don't know what you'd do otherwise -- figure it out! Make a plan! And then leave. Leave before you end up more miserable, with falling grades, and are kicked out... or you graduate, with a degree having strangled every ounce of passion out of you, and end up in a job that is just as bad.

Nobody is going to intervene and fix this for you. The pain you are feeling is because you are living somebody else's life for them. You have to find & choose to live your OWN life.

That may end up including college. You may decide, after weighing how you feel, that you should support your family, too. Choosing to do what you consider to be the right thing can feel wonderful. But not if you're only doing it because you don't want to feel guilty.

So, that, and pick up a copy of of When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. If possible, the audio book. Listen to it and do what it says. I promise you, it'll help.</comment>


Decision theory and the Underpants bomber - <AUTHOR> http://www.samefacts.com/2010/01/terrorism-and-its-control/decision-theory-and-the-underpants-bomber/

<comment><USER2> The more information authorities have to deal with the bigger the chance they'll miss the needles. After all, there is a relatively constant number of needles, make a bigger haystack and you've only made it harder to find the needles.

What they need is _better_ information, not more of it.

Tightening the screws on things like no-fly lists is only useful if the underlying information gets much better than it is today, right now the number of false positives is so high that you're essentially looking at the boy that cried wolf once too many.

Maybe this guy did trip a flag, maybe he didn't (he should have, but that's after the fact). The problem is that on the day that he flew probably 10's if not 100's of people were actually flagged and searched as false positives, and that's one of the many reasons why this false negative managed to slip through the maze.

Another thing that this clearly demonstrates is a total communications failure between agencies, and that's not exactly news. As always, the information was there for the taking but because of the high number of links between the people that act and the people that know nothing was done with the information.

edit: And because of political correctness a lot of time is wasted on searching people that are picked at random when openly profiling would probably be much more effective but will be shouted down immediately, so the system actually _has_ to waste a lot of time and effort just to avoid being accused of racism.

As someone else pointed out (paraphrased) the day that old white rich people start blowing up airliners we have a real problem.

Also, every day there are probably worried parents that call in that their son is about to become a radical, and 99% of the time you probably never hear from those people again.

An interesting thing I noticed is that plenty of these terrorists seem to be rejecting their parents wealth and become willing victims for radicalization, I wonder if there isn't a deeper psychological parallel that might be used to identify this 'kind' of wannabe mass murderer, after all if the terrorist groups can uncover these characters with some regularity others should be able to do the same, then either get to them first and give them some psychological anti-dote or use it to figure out the risk at a later date.

<comment><USER3> I don't think they need better information, just a collection place that adds up the red flags and spits out a security risk level. Cross referencing the different sources of information should do it. Create a central database. It also may be how these people are tracked. If it's on a assigned case basis, that could be difficult to manage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> great article. the final point is crucial: there needs to be a separate level, between normal and no-fly, that is relatively easy to trigger, for special screening. the "fire hose" of intelligence needs to be connected to that, and it's an almost-real-time problem (eg. paying with cash just before the flight).

<comment><USER5> I believe that kind of list already exists. A friend of mine is consistently given extra screening every time he passes through an airport. They put a mark on his boarding pass and he gets a pat-down.</comment></comment>


"ALL PHOTOGRAPHS ARE PROFESSIONAL, ENCRYPTED AND COPYRIGHTED" - <AUTHOR> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22ALL+PHOTOGRAPHS+ARE+PROFESSIONAL%2C+ENCRYPTED+AND+COPYRIGHTED%22&oq=%22ALL+PHOTOGRAPHS+ARE+PROFESSIONAL%2C+ENCRYPTED+AND+COPYRIGHTED%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.856j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 <comment><USER2> What does that even mean?

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly.</comment></comment>


A Gentle Introduction to CouchDB for Relational Practitioners  - <AUTHOR> http://blog.couchone.com/post/1167966323/a-gentle-introduction-to-couchdb-for-relational

<comment><USER2> Well, I'm sold. I checked out Mongo before, and it was relatively pleasant. But I wonder if Couch is more reliable and mature? I'd love to dive into building a brand new system I have in mind that seems like a good fit for a document database.

<comment><USER3> I've used it with rails for a short time now, still trying to dig deeper -- I really don't know if it's more reliable or mature than Mongo, but it was also a relatively pleasant experience. Also, I do know that it integrates very nicely with rails, and that you should use couchrest with it if you're on rails (<http://github.com/couchrest/couchrest>).

Side comment: learning to write map reduce algos instead of just querying was kind of difficult at first (for document databases in general). The article seems to have neglected to mention it -- it had the steepest learning curve in the overall couch-learning process for me.

<comment><USER4> In my few months with Couch I've found it to live up to its "relax" motto, at least until I hit pagination. What you have to go through will seem grotesque to anyone coming from SQL.

<comment><USER5> <http://github.com/cpinto/python-couchdb-paginator>

haven't used this but i saw this on SO the other day ... I just started looking at the whole NoSQL paradigm to experiment in the near future and i felt it was helpful to track some tags on StackOverflow to learn about issues people face...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Any HNers using Couch heavily? I'd love to hear about people's experience with CouchApps.

<comment><USER7> I haven't written any CouchApps (I really don't like JS so much I'd like to write my whole app in it, even though the notion is quite awesome), but I've used CouchDB in a few projects. Most importantly, we've been using it at work, where it's awesome at solving some of our problems. Streaming replication to our off-site backup server was almost trivial setup and makes it easy to switch our entire operation to the using the backup server instead of the local network. Map/reduce queries have made it possible to provide very fast overviews of large amounts of data. And it's just awesome that you can debug your queries by firing off HTTP requests from your browser...

Oh yeah, and Futon is an awesome tool. On some of the sites where I've been too lazy to build CMS tools, I'm just using it to update the site, and it works quite well for that. It also makes it easy to just jump in and fix something up whenever you need to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Also, the article says that views can just be written in JavaScript. It's true that the default query server is written for JavaScript, but query servers exist for other languages, including but not limited to Java, Erlang and Python.

</comment><comment><USER8> How well can Couch handle heavy textual use? does it play well with Lucene?

<comment><USER9> not natively. try couch + lucene. <http://github.com/rnewson/couchdb-lucene>

<comment><USER8> Thank you. That looks like a well documented project. Will have to benchmark to test it and benchmark it for my uses.</comment></comment></comment>


Announcing Docker Enterprise Edition 2.0 – Linux/Windows and Kubernetes/Swarm - <AUTHOR> https://blog.docker.com/2018/04/announcing-docker-enterprise-edition-2-0/ <comment><USER2> This has been discussed a couple times here in HN recently regrading the integration of Kubernetes into Docker EE.

Individuals associated with Docker assure me that Swarm will not be End of Lifed, but even if this blog post by Docker, the focus in on the Kubernetes integration rather than the future of Swarm. 18 mentions of "Kubernetes" compared to just 8 "Swarm".

<comment><USER3> Kubernetes was designed to solve Google type infrastructure problems. Although it will run Windows containers, Kubernetes won't run _on_ Windows desktops. It's not a problem Google has. Kubernetes primary use-case is containers for server clusters and data centers. Swarm will run on Windows because the primary problem Docker tries to solve is containers for developers. Swarm is easy to setup and run on laptop. It's a part of the Docker product. A part of the experience of developing with Docker is not having to fool with Kubernetes while developing.

Docker's enterprise products are designed to fit in the larger data-center context. The laptop experience is a small part of the value proposition relative to compatibility with heterogeneous tooling and architectures.</comment></comment>


Yeti – probably the most agile statically typed language on the JVM (2011) - <AUTHOR> https://chrisichris.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/yeti-probably-the-most-dynamic-of-the-statically-typed-languages-on-the-jvm/ <comment><USER2> Actually, I got disappointed that 'case' ends with 'esac', 'try' with 'yrt', 'if' with 'fi', and there's also ''elif'! The binary 'b_and' and 'b_or' also disappoint a bit. Oh, well, there's no perfect language... except Rust?

Also, why some keywords have underscore ('unsafely_as') and others such as 'classOf' don't? Now I'm really disappointed! Totally inconsistent is 'instanceof', 'typedef', 'norec', too!

I wish I can undo my upvotes!

<comment><USER2> I created an issue [0].

[0]: [https://github.com/mth/yeti/issues/21](https://github.com/mth/yeti/issues/21)

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> Lovely clean, expressive, and consistent syntax! This definitely is a language, which I'm gonna experiment with!</comment>


New "How Airbnb Works" video (shot at 13 locations around world) - <AUTHOR> http://www.airbnb.com/info/how_it_works

<comment><AUTHOR> Fun facts (directly quoted) from Adam Lisagor, who made the video:

* All the locations are real Airbnb places.

* The pretty lady in the video is Venetia Pristavec, who does all the in-house video content for Airbnb, traveling around to different countries and interviewing hosts. She's great.

* Where you see people, those are real Airbnb hosts.

* The site is neat, but you should download the iPhone app. It's one of the best-designed, most beautiful and functional apps I've ever used.

* The cinematographer is my friend Rachel Morrison. She's great.

* That villa with the credit card logos in the pool? It's in Puerto Vallarta. The crew stayed there for a few days. It's great.

* My side of the Scrabble board spells out "COOTYS RAT SEMEN". Venetia's spells "BEANS". I won.

<comment><USER2> Love the Sneakers reference.

<comment><USER3> Don't get this.

<comment><USER4> In the movie "Sneakers", "COOTYS RAT SEMEN" is one of the sillier anagrams encountered when the main characters try to use a Scrabble set to figure out the meaning of "Setec Astronomy". It's a classic hacker movie -- highly recommended if you haven't seen it.

<comment><USER3> Ahh...ok. Will try and get it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I spy Adam Lisagor.. or some similarly bearded man. He worked on Square and Birdhouse's videos.

Square: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBieYjxUj5Q>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2_u2nMsgjg>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSzsFAJAKHI> .. wow square has a lot of videos

Birdhouse: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8yRaWY1xV8&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8yRaWY1xV8&feature=player_embedded)

<comment><USER6> He also did these:

Jawbone's JAMBOX: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgC3zjNH1oU&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgC3zjNH1oU&feature=player_embedded)

Couch to 5k (iOS app): <http://vimeo.com/15981967>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> One of the most compelling things about AirBnB is the gorgeous photos of all those unique places. I don't know how they get them. Do they just have lots of hosts with amazing photography skills or do they send people out to take pictures?

<comment><USER8> Paying a pro photographer to come take a few shots of the place pays off immensely in the number of bookings. It's just good marketing.

<comment><USER9> Why don't any of the major dating sites have contracts with a pro photographer in each city to do head shots for cheap or free? It seems like such a slam dunk idea given the economics, and yet none of the major dating sites want to do it. (Having emailed the staff of some of these sites with this idea a couple years ago on behalf of a photographer friend and receiving no response.)

<comment> brown9-2 A user who does this and is successful will no longer have a need for the dating site profile, or to pay the monthly fee for the site.

<comment><USER10> Depends on what they're using the site for (e.g. random hook ups means repeat customer).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I just used Airbnb for the first time last week. Had a pretty good experience with it. Stayed at a fellow HN'er's ( ngrandy ) place. A very pleasant experience overall, I'll probably keep using it in lieu of hotels when I travel.

The culture of the site is interesting in itself - it attracts people that don't mind having a stranger in their house. You really have to be a sociable person to allow that, and it shows in the personalities of the hosts (and guests). Makes for a very friendly and welcoming environment.

</comment><comment><USER12> Some more facts by video creator Adam Lisagor <http://lonelysandwich.com/>

I wonder how much something like this would cost?

</comment><comment><USER13> It passed the "my parents understood it test":) Great vid!

</comment><comment><USER14> Great video - but man I must have trust issues; because there is no way I'd be letting someone stay in my place if I'm just out of town for the weekend.

<comment><USER15> That's why they have the ebay-like "review" system. It works pretty well for the couch surfing websites, so I am sure it works well here too.

(but yes, I agree with you - I don't know how keen I'd be to leave someone the keys to my place while I'm out either)

<comment><USER16> I'm always traveling (it's part of my job) and I rent it out while I'm away. Airbnb handles the payment, and the reviews can only be left by people who have stayed through the community so you know they are legit. You can also choose who stays - that's why everyone has profiles. In any case, I offset my rent about $400/month and have "travel fun" money now. I'm 70% to my goal of heading to Thailand in March! Can't wait!

<comment><USER17> Excuse me for being presumptuous, but it's sort of customary to self-identify in a post like this if you happen to be affiliated with the company.

<comment><USER18> "The pretty lady in the video is Venetia Pristavec, who does all the in-house video content for Airbnb, traveling around to different countries and interviewing hosts. She's great."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Beautiful video.

I might be moving to London for a few months, and the "stay for a month" line certainly persuaded me to take a look when I do.

</comment><comment><USER19> Over the past year, I've kept Airbnb in mind while doing my travel planning. I've made numerous inquiries to book for multiple trips, but am always rejected. One example would be a trip to NYC I took two months ago. I sent out 10 inquires to hosts but they were all rejected. The typical response is a curt, "No longer available," but in all cases I filtered based on availability.

So, it's not as easy as this video implies. For me, it has been something of a headache and a time waster, which is unfortunate because I think their idea is excellent.

(Maybe it is easy if you're a hot hipster waif?)

</comment><comment><USER20> When I first heard the Airbnb idea - I was really skeptical. This is one of the cases where the actual implementation of the idea turned out better than the pure idea itself.

I've booked a couple of places through the site when I was traveling in California, and the result in both places was better than I would have expected.

<comment><USER21> I think it's a fantastic idea I just haven't had the hutzpah to actually book a place in someone else's home yet... yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I have been a couchsurfer for years and love the commmunity. airbnb seems to be exactly like couchsurfing except you have to pay to surf somebody's couch.

Comparing airbnb and couchsurfing experience would be a great exercise in understanding the altruism and economics of the internet and online communities.

</comment><comment><USER23> Great video. At first I wondered "what does she do for a living?" then it inspired me: I work from home now. I'm going to seriously consider renting out my house and work from other people's homes instead.

</comment><comment><USER24> And the tipping point is reached :-) Congrats and hope the virality ensues!

</comment><comment><USER25> Watched the video, its definitely interesting. Looks like a super commercial version of <http://www.couchsurfing.org/>.

</comment><comment><USER26> I rent an 1-bdrm apt in a small building (about 16-20 tenants) in Los Angeles, CA. It might be obvious if I am having a "guest" over every weekend I'm gone-- or for longer trips (like 1-6 weeks traveling).

Would I need to get my landlord's permission? Or is it my right according to CA tenant law? Or somewhere in between?

</comment><comment><USER27> Great video, but wasn't it fiendishly expensive to make? I assume that means Airbnb is doing well?

</comment><comment><USER28> Great video - who made it?

<comment><USER29> Adam Lisagor (@lonelysandwich) - [http://twitter.com/#!/lonelysandwich/status/2305705896208384...](http://twitter.com/#!/lonelysandwich/status/23057058962083840)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> how do they prevent renters from robbing the places?

</comment><comment><USER31> awesome video!!! like, i kinda teared up at the end. really.

</comment><comment><USER30> nice to see startups produce great videos about service themselves not involving 'creative' studios that would add boring marketing taste

</comment><comment><USER32> This is going to sound so fan-boyish -- but I really respect what team Airbnb has done. Its so exciting to see them continue to kick so much ass and grow.

<comment><USER33> I second the Airbnb fanboyism!

<comment><USER34> and some for Venetia too!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> BOING</comment>


Persistent and Persistence: What's the Difference? - <AUTHOR> http://devcentral.f5.com/weblogs/macvittie/archive/2008/07/11/3443.aspx

<comment><USER2> Is it just me or is the recent wave of Social Personal Active Marketing for f5 having the opposite of the intended effect?

Whereas before I had a good opinion of f5 (I'm stuck with gear made by a canadian phone company); I am now motivated to seek out alternatives.

Also paying someone's annual salary for a box of commodity parts and commodity software is mildly irritating.</comment>


Clojure Tutorial For the Non-Lisp Programmer - <AUTHOR> http://www.moxleystratton.com/article/clojure/for-non-lisp-programmers <comment><USER2> This is from 2008 and from a quick skim seems ok, but delves unnecessarily into some distinctions between vars and symbols and stuff that's totally not helpful for someone new to Lisp.

I also don't think "str" is a special form, is it? [https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/f5f827ac9fbb87e770d2...](https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/f5f827ac9fbb87e770d25007472504403ed3d7a6/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L487)

<comment><USER3> Nope, it's definitely a function. That caught my eye as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Great tutorial, but how is this on the front page? This article is 4 years old.

 _str_ is definitely not a special form, and wasn't, at least as far back as the 20081217 release. The article's date is from May 2008, though, so it's possible, if unlikely, because most special forms are special because they require non-standard evaluation order, and _str_ doesn't qualify.

</comment><comment><USER5> Does anyone have experience with Clojure using openjdk6 for ARM? I've got one of those embedded devices (armv5) and I'm curious what the performance is like with such a minimal amount of memory (~128-512MB).</comment>


YC Tech Stacks - <AUTHOR> http://themacro.com/articles/2016/08/yc-tech-stacks/ <comment><USER3> If you're interested in startup tech stacks, we have a lot of different ones curated at StackShare.

[http://stackshare.io](http://stackshare.io)

Some well known startups are "verified" with a blue checkmark, which means they update their tech stack themselves so look out for that.

<comment><USER4> btw - [https://www.datanyze.com/domain/?tab=info&domain=stackshare....](https://www.datanyze.com/domain/?tab=info&domain=stackshare.io)

<comment><USER3> It's asking me to create an account. Can you take a screenshot?

<comment><USER4> here: [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp-J9HdVUAAoeZl.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp-J9HdVUAAoeZl.jpg:large)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> So besides the boring stuff listed in this article, how about the database servers and developer environments? The actual tech stack running the show.

<comment><USER6> I'm not sure I would characterize this as boring stuff so much as only like a third of the picture.

When the article was titled "tech stacks" I was hoping to learn about the actual tech stacks, not just the front end stuff. Like what's actually answering the HTTPS requests? nginx? Apache? Node? Passenger? Tomcat?

What's the DB system?

What OS?

Heck even from front end we're missing who's using Angular, who's using Ember, who's using Bootstrap, etc.

I wouldn't have titled this "Tech Stacks". Maybe "marketing and analytics software."

<comment><USER5> That's exactly what my point was. I was anticipating a bit more in depth analysis beyond a few third party services everyone uses.

<comment><AUTHOR> _" I was anticipating a bit more in depth analysis beyond a few third party services everyone uses."_

Valid point, write something up. Submit it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Some of the juxtapositions/language are bizarre.

>2\. Of the YC companies that use hosting providers, 55% use AWS, 13% use Cloudflare and 6% use Rackspace.

Comparing Cloudflare and AWS? Where's GCP or Azure?

>3\. Of the YC companies that use a CDN, 68% use Amazon CloudFront, 7% use Cloudflare and 5% use Fastly.

Okay, so there's a separate section for CDN...

>8\. Only 22% of YC sites use a third party CMS. Of those, 83% use WordPress.

"3rd party" CMS? As opposed to...a custom made web app?

>11\. In terms of installs, the most common Analytics providers are Google Analytics (451), Google Universal Analytics (314), Mixpanel (183) and Optimizely (129).

I thought Google Universal Analytics was an updated version of Google Analytics.

That said, this kind of market research is incredibly valuable.

<comment><USER8> Hey, so i'll attempt to clear the air a bit. Didn't think this would trend like it did..

Cloudflare - chalk this up as a mistake. I have a marketing background, so not too well versed in the infrastructure space. I'll ask Macro to make an edit for me :)

"As opposed to...a custom made web app?" \- correct.

Google Analytics vs Universal Analytics - Correct, Universal is an update, but many still use GA standard. The GA # (451) is all encompassing, the GUA # (314) is the subset of GA users that use the update.

Granted, there is much room for improvement in both the information given and the semantics behind it, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Thought it would be interesting for people to see since a lot of this stuff usually operates behind the black curtain.

<comment><USER9> Thanks for the writeup! I enjoyed reading it and comparing with some of our vendor/stack choices.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> _2\. Of the YC companies that use hosting providers, 55% use AWS, 13% use Cloudflare and 6% use Rackspace._

Cloudflare is a CDN exclusively, right? Why are they counted among the hosting providers and not with CDNs in the next line?

<comment><USER6> Yeah CloudFlare is not a hosting provider, so that piece seems erroneous. They are on the CDN line below, I just don't understand why they ended up on this line. Maybe because people's DNS points at CloudFlare?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> 83% WordPress usage among CMS users seems high, but 22% using a CMS at all seems low. Presumably most using a CMS just want a blog and a few pages? Any kind of complicated content structure goes straight to custom development? Does this account for static generators like Jekyll or CMSes that don't provide information about themselves?

<comment><USER12> I would think that many of them don't expose plainly the fact that they're powered by WordPress or only use it as a backend/authoring solution with a custom frontend.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> BuiltWith has a much more extensive list of not only YC stacks but several curated lists. [https://trends.builtwith.com/tech- reports](https://trends.builtwith.com/tech-reports)

the YC stack is here: [https://trends.builtwith.com/tech- reports/Y-Combinator](https://trends.builtwith.com/tech-reports/Y-Combinator)

*click the All Technologies dropdown to see all the options

</comment><comment><USER14> The chart at the bottom (now that it's fixed; thanks!), if you remove the Google outliers, shows that there is little correlation between the market share of a given SASS within its category and the number of YC startups that use it.

As a result, the conclusion is that YC companies just use whatever the hell they want, not what is "best."

</comment><comment><USER15> _2\. Of the YC companies that use hosting providers, 55% use AWS, 13% use Cloudflare and 6% use Rackspace._

No Azure? considering how much Microsoft gives away with their bizspark program, this is surprising.

<comment><USER16> I'd be curious why. If there are issues, happy to try and help out.

<comment><USER17> We tried to use Azure for a new system ~8 months ago (it's hard to pass up that much money). Spinning up a vm with the image we needed and a static ip was not possible with the GUI. The specific image we needed was only accessible on the "new" portal, but a static IP could only be assigned from the "old" portal. It's theoretically possible to set it up with PowerShell, but after spending over a week of poring over outdated and incomplete documentation and opening support tickets, we switched to AWS and had it running in a few hours.

Even if we did get it to work, I'm not sure I would feel comfortable investing in a platform where something as simple as "create a vm with this image and assign a static ip" isn't straightforward. It could be better now, but for us (and most other young startups) the time of our engineers is much more scarce than hosting costs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I ran a similar study a while back - I was curious to see if the YC incentives for startups (Azure credits, Amazon credits, Digital Ocean credits, etc.) were significantly swaying founders to use a technology stack.

You can find a quick analysis of registrars and DNS providers here - [https://www.gra.pe/?p=77](https://www.gra.pe/?p=77)

You can find architecture analysis here - [https://www.gra.pe/?p=36](https://www.gra.pe/?p=36)

Interesting stuff.

<comment><USER19> Is the most popular domain registrar among YC cos really GoDaddy?

This seems pretty unusual given industry trends over the past, 5+ years. Do you separate GoDaddy resellers from GoDaddy direct?

Update: They are not separated.

> I see Namecheap come up in a lot of hackernews posts for recommended > registrars. I'm assuming since Namecheap and many other popular startup- > friendly registrars are both resellers of GoDaddy and eNom and are ICAAN > accredited registrars, the WHOIS lookup may not reflect the proper registrar > (i.e. they may show up as eNom instead of Namecheap).

I'm also surprised to see AWS Route 53 omitted as a registrar, and possibly as a name service, unless that's what "Amazon" under DNS refers to.

Still this data is useful and nice to have as a point of reference.

<comment><USER20> What is a "startup-friendly registrar"?

Godaddy has lots of annoying upsells in their checkout flow but they're cheap, fast and work just fine as a registrar and DNS host.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> comparing Datanyze | Stackshare.io | Builtwith.com

[https://www.datanyze.com/domain/?tab=info&domain=datanyze.co...](https://www.datanyze.com/domain/?tab=info&domain=datanyze.com)

[http://stackshare.io/datanyze/datanyze](http://stackshare.io/datanyze/datanyze)

[http://builtwith.com/datanyze.com](http://builtwith.com/datanyze.com)

</comment><comment><USER21> I don't see tech stacks here. Mostly adtech!

</comment><comment><USER22> I was hoping it was a list of the tech stacks they used to build their software, like Node.js, C, Clojure, Redis, etc

<comment><USER23> Yeah PG should attempt to validate his claim that a better language is actually an advantage. They should have enough data to draw some sort of conclusions. Or be able to ask ex founders if they didn't collect it beforehand. Of course all this compared against various success metrics.

Also good to know when people ended up switching stacks and for what reasons.

<comment><USER24> Good point. I don't know what PG considers a "better" language (aside from Lisp), but I'd make a random guess and say that most YC companies are using JavaScript, Ruby, Python, or Go for their backend.

<comment><USER25> All of those are basically Lisps if you squint hard enough. In particular, they are much closer to Lisp than the two languages people were using for Viaweb competitors at the time, namely C++ and Perl (according to the "Beating the Averages" essay), and specifically the mid-'90s version of C++ and Perl. Perl 5, released 7 months before Viaweb launched, added anonymous functions (lambdas) and the ability to have variables that were references to variables. Perl 5.004, released almost two years _later_ , added funcrefs, which made anonymous functions useful. C++ technically let you define objects with operator() all along, but there was no useful support until the STL, first released less than a year before Viaweb launched. boost::function only showed up in 2001, and native lambdas in 2011.

The curious thing is that, even so, none of those languages are really Lisps at all. I think the lesson is not so much "Use Lisp" as "Use a programming language that _actually has some basic features_ and which your tech folks are familiar at", and most programming languages in the '90s didn't have what we'd rightly consider basic features today.

See also [http://raganwald.com/2013/07/19/javascript-is-a- lisp.html](http://raganwald.com/2013/07/19/javascript-is-a-lisp.html) .

<comment><USER23> IIRC PG's main argument was that macros were so powerful he could write stuff to write features vs writing features directly. Hence being super fast compared to competition.

Even if that was accurate, I would guess with modern web apps or UIs there's gonna be a large overhead that might wipe out any benefit. Using F# in a live app, for instance -- sure, the main parts are nicer, shorter. And yes, it makes me feel sane. But compared to the overall effort a company needs, I'm not sure it matters in most cases.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> CloudFlare is not a hosting provider.

Interesting analysis nonetheless.

<comment><USER27> They provide a basic CDN hosting service, essentially asset caching.

<comment><USER28> On the line after talking about using CloudFlare as a hosting provider, they separately talk about using CloudFlare as a CDN.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> "Only 21% of YC companies are A/B testing, but 93% use Optimizely"

This doesn't sound right. I wonder if the writer meant "93% of the 21% who do A/B testing use Optimizely".

<comment><USER30> That's how I read it: 21% A/B test, of whom 93% use Optimizely.

<comment><USER31> I agree, that said, I think it's hard to say the 79% _don't_ A/B test. Could easily be homegrown, or round-robin based, or perhaps it was only included on a specific page.

<comment><USER30> Yes, especially given the zeitgeist around A/B testing, that seems unlikely.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32>
        AdWords comes in fourth with 130

Any reason for this?

<comment><USER33> I think it's because they mostly spend money on current customers not new ones. To attract new customers they probably use another ways (like SEO, cold call, and so on).

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> >> Of the YC companies that use hosting providers, 55% use AWS, 13% use Cloudflare and 6% use Rackspace.

No love for Linode?

<comment><USER35> I'd love to see all the major cloud and hosting providers here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Why no one uses services from providers like Digital ocean and linode . They are cheap and reliable?

<comment><USER37> Both are great for hobby projects, and offer pretty great bang for buck, but I'd never run consider running anything serious on either, let a lone a business.

Some examples:

== Not pay bills (yeah, yeah, I should check my email more often when a credit card expires) ===

* Digital Ocean: All is working, then one day they flip the switch and shut down your servers and delete the backups (that you paid for)

* AWS: Has a super reasonable policy, first by shutting down the servers so you know

* Linode: Not sure

== Get DDoSd ==

* Digital Ocean: 24 hour blackhole, zero support or human contact in this time

* AWS: Servers kept alive, got some engineering assistance

* Linode: 24 (?) hour blackhole, a bit of really bad support

== Physical Server Upgrades ==

* Digital Ocean: Not bad

* AWS: Amazing. Zero downtime, I have 4 year uptime on many servers

* Linode: Botched my servers, more times than I can count. Even had support reboot the WRONG servers of mine when I was talking with them

== Bandwidth ===

* Digital Ocean: shitty and cheap

* AWS: Amazing and stupidly expensive

* Linode: Decent and cheap

I could go on. If it was a hobby project, I'd probably just use Digital Ocean because of their cheap prices and sleek control panel. (Or actually I'd use vultr)

But for anything serious where I have a budget for servers, you'd be crazy to use anything about AWS or Google Cloud

<comment><USER19> > * AWS: Servers kept alive, got some engineering assistance

This depends a lot on what level of customer you are.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Instead of scraping the sites and trying to guess what YC companies are using...

Perhaps just ask them?

Surely every YC company would answer, or at least enough to make the information more valuable than a set of guesses.

Additionally, it would be good to know when YC companies choose other YC company products based on incentives offered (it's free to other alumni), as this disclosure allows others to evaluate whether the choice to use a product was because it was the best product for that task or was potentially skewed by the incentive offered.

</comment><comment><USER39> It would be interesting to have also information about the frontend. Are they using Bootstrap/Foundation/etc? What other JS libs are they using for the presentation layer?

<comment><USER19> You can get that info one by one with their Chrome extension. Front end framework detection was not perfect in the limited ~10 startups I examined.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> LinkedIn ads don't have tracking scripts or pixels, so not sure how they're getting the number for that. Certainly can't be accurate.

<comment><USER41> They don't?

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> You can also see a lot of this data over at Siftery, with much of it verified first-hand by the companies themselves ([https://siftery.com/groups/y-combinator- portfolio](https://siftery.com/groups/y-combinator-portfolio))

</comment><comment><USER43> Advertising technologies I'm almost sure it's wrong. How do you know from the javascript used if the company uses Adwords? My company uses adwords extensively and all the events and conversions are passed using Google Analytics and the Adwords API.

</comment><comment><USER44> Why is AWS so popular? I don't mean that as a question with pretense, just genuinely curious.

<comment><USER45> Amazon gives away a silly amount of free AWS credits to some accelerator programs. At 500 Startups I think they give you $50,000 or $100,000 in credits that expire after a couple years. I assume they do the same for YC. Obviously most companies can't even use more than a tiny fraction of that.

<comment><USER19> Correct.

Either it expires after a certain time period, IIRC 2? years, or your startup takes off and you burn through the rest quickly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> None of these numbers point to a monopoly on the bizdev/marketing side - <USER2> that due to the tools/players being new (I consolidated) or is it likely to stay this fragmented?

</comment><comment><USER47> Still waiting for info about actual tech stacks.

</comment><comment><USER48> some good data on best in class saas</comment>