Opera 10.5 Alpha Released, New Javascript & Rendering engine, 7x faster - <AUTHOR> http://www.taranfx.com/opera-10-5

<comment><USER2> I'm a long time user of Opera. Always surprised why it is very underrated.

Just for the record : * Opera is and was the fastest browser on limited memory/cpu machines * Opera is the most user friendly browser, it has always been so. (tabs, sync, speed dials, quick preferences, full zoom, email client, irc, skins, notes, downloader (btw, opera has the best "builtin" browser downloader ever, you can actually open files while downloading), history search (yes, opera's history search is the best), debugger and countless of small other useful details & features)

This browser is simply a treasure, yes I have tested every other browser and I keep a copy of FF with a bunch of plugins.

<comment><USER3> Chrome comes very close. Its interface is actually cleaner than Opera's. I used to use Opera, but now I'm using Chrome. This new Opera has a better interface that leaves most screen space for the actual website, much like Chrome. Maybe I'll switch back to Opera.

<comment><USER2> chrome is taking the good path but its hard to stop some of the opera habits, including F4, F12, "/", past&go, direct search in Wikipedia/ebay

<comment><USER4> Exactly! It was so tough for me to change from Opera to chrome. But chrome is much more minimal and the faster load time was enough of a killer feature for me to switch. But this version is pretty impressive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> More details from the Opera developer blog can be found here: [http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2009/12/22/from-all- of-...](http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2009/12/22/from-all-of-us-to-all- of-you)

<comment><USER6> >Most interactive dialogs will no longer block tabs or disturb your work flow. Tab specific dialogs (like javascript popups) are displayed as part of the tab in an overlay, so you can easily switch tabs without have to move or close the dialogs.

I _really_ hope this becomes more widespread. I hate greedy focus-grabbing alerts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Also, Opera is of course the malware writer's choice du jour because it's tighter than a pigeon's chuff.

Quite funny seeing the recent Firefox menu button being a complete rip off of the leaked Opera 10.5 build.

</comment><comment><USER8> The versioning nomenclature seems somewhat chaotic... here it says 10.5 and their current version is 10.10 and on the linked page they refer to 10.1 and also talk about 10.50. I guess that 10.10 == 10.1 and 10.5 == 10.50 but it is a bit confusing...

Oh, and the download crashes with SIGBUS on my MacPro running 10.6 :(

<comment><USER9> Actually, the 10.10 is because of the Unite component. When they released the official new version, 10, they didn't have Unite ready yet, it was on another branch, the 10.10 (they reserved a few numbers for hotfixes for the version without Unite).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> More details on the javascript vm: <http://my.opera.com/core/blog/2009/02/04/carakan>

From my somewhat limited knowledge of such, it seems like they took a fairly similar route as the Webkit guys. (Register based, etc..)

</comment><comment><USER11> Thought I'd give this a try since I never gave Opera much of a chance, and I'm usually very tolerant of alpha/betas as long as they mostly work.

Lasted about half an hour - Google Reader doesn't seem to work right, and GMail also stopped responding after a while.

<comment><USER12> I've had zero issues with Google Reader and GMail with all prior 9.x and 10.x releases. So maybe your experience is particular to this alpha release.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> If the default browser in OS X was as crappy as the default on Windows, I'd now be using Opera, with Chrome in a really close second.

Firefox has a million extensions, but speed matters more to me.

</comment><comment><USER14> _Known issues: JIT doesn't work on CPU's without SSE2_ Wow a JIT working with SSE2! No wonder it's 20 percent faster than chrome

<comment><USER11> Is it? I just downloaded this alpha and ran SunSpider. Chrome 4.0.266.0 got 506.8ms +/- 6.6%, Opera got 763.4ms +/- 4.4%.

<comment><USER5> It might be machine dependent. For me on an AMD Semperon:

Opera 10.5 alpha: 700.8ms +/- 0.8%

Chrome 4.0.266.0: 840.4ms +/- 4.2%

<comment><USER11> Certainly. Processor, OS, RAM, etc will matter a lot.

FWIW I ran in a Core 2 Duo P9500 with W7 64, 4gb of ram.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> If there was some sort of adblockplus for Opera I'd jump ship from Firefox in a heartbeat.

<comment><USER16> I'm not sure Privoxy is as smooth as Adblock, but it might be worth a try: [http://www.privoxy.org/user- manual/quickstart.html#QUICKSTAR...](http://www.privoxy.org/user- manual/quickstart.html#QUICKSTART-AD-BLOCKING)

<comment><USER17> so sad that this is the case, but it is :( adblock seems to have a record (for my personal use at least) as almost never having a false positive. privoxy on the other hand seems to block all sorts during actual use that aren't really ads, especially flash.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Am loving the new Win7 integration with this release. Definitely feels snappier!

</comment><comment><USER19> The new look and feel of the Mac version is very similar to Safari.

</comment><comment><USER20> Windows 7 user here. It's been a long time since I tried out Opera properly last time, but I have to say this new release is snappy, smooth and very, very clean. And unlike Chrome it actually tries to mimick the native UI conventions without getting boring.

And as other's have mentioned, the Windows 7 add-on features are a nice bonus.

I like this very much.</comment>


MicroISV on a Shoestring - the Story Behind the Bingo Cards - <AUTHOR> http://kalzumeus.com/start-here-if-youre-new/ <comment><USER2> Hiya, blog author here. Glad you liked that. I'd just like to point out that the post is written largely in the present tense but was last touched about a year ago. (You think I would have known to future proof it... or at least put the date somewhere.)

In the interim, I've changed jobs and tripled sales, among other things.

Just pointing it out for accuracy's sake.</comment>


Iran in space - <AUTHOR> http://therealamirtaheri.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/keep-your-eyes-in-sky-iran-in-space.html

<comment><USER2> It is interesting for me when reading the opinion of others about Iran. As a person who had lived inside and outside Iran long enough, I feel very sceptical about the content of the article. The author's statements are very similar to those of the government authorities where only certain facts are described regardless of the issues. I'm not an expert about space industry but since I am pretty sure that the article is exaggerating heavily about the advancements and they heavily rely on China and Russia. Also the author claims " _the sanctions have, like many other local industries, pushed Iran to meet its needs locally and therefore advance quicker than possible if Iran had the easy option of importing everything it needed_ ". Apparently he tries to portray that nothing had happened because of the sanctions but it is apparent that the sanctions has crippled the economy currently and the currency value has reduced by five time. The prices has tripled since 4 month ago and middle class society are getting poorer just because of the nuclear ambitions of the leaders.

I should also state that I don't believe Iran is making nuclear weapon nor can I deny it. I think western countries would've had the same policy even if no nuclear activity was there and some other excuse will be used in order to protect Israel. Western media have prepared people so well in case they need to take any action against Iran. Well, I hope that does not happen.

<comment> guard-of-terra "The article is exaggerating heavily about the advancements and they heavily rely on China and Russia."

I remember how ten years ago you could read the same phrase about Chinese program, and now they are on the providing side already!

<comment><USER2> I don't deny they are making progress. But thats not as what you think it is!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Author of blog piece seems to be _very_ confused about how staged rockets work, and appears to think that a two stage rocket is somehow inherently more efficient than a three stage rocket! Which is just plain wrong.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multistage_rocket>

What he might be getting is that, if Iran had stuck a third stage on top of a pre-existing two stage IRBM in order to put a tiny wee satellite into orbit, then it would imply that the rocket in question was borderline-capable and not really amenable to being upgraded further. But the Safir-2 is apparently a 2-stage rocket with the ability to reach orbital velocity, implying that by adding boosters or a third stage to it a much larger payload could be launched.

<comment><USER4> I was thinking that might be what he meant, but then he says this:

>While a three-stage rocket is simple and is limited on how much of a weight threshold it can lift, the more advanced two-stage can be expanded for larger weights.

The first part of that is, I'm pretty sure, the opposite of true. The second part is sort of true, but the "expansion" in question would be... adding a third stage. I think he heard the Geoffrey Forden quote and misunderstood the point, which is admittedly subtle.

I think what Forden meant was: "If they need three stages to do just this, then they'll never be able to use this to launch a human, because a four-stage rocket is completely beyond them. But if they can do _this_ with only two stages, they could get a human to space with three stages."

<comment><USER3> Yup, that was my reading, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm so glad to see Iran doing this. Not because I have any particular affinity for Iran, but because the technology will improve as competition increases and more nations/companies take steps into space.

This may be a big step for Iran, but it's an even bigger one for the human race as a whole.

<comment><USER6> Are you glad to see North Korea develop its "space program" too? Yes, I know this is HN where discussions about politics are discouraged, but in this case it's bordering on farcical to ignore it.

I have a lecturer in fluid mechanics who used to be an engineer on the Indian space program. He interchangeably uses the terms "satellite" and "warhead" when discussing the work he used to do.

It may well be that Iran wants to develop orbital launch capability for launching satellites and people into space. But assuming that's the only reason is a little naive.

<comment><USER7> I like the occasional reminder that Iran has never started a war. And it won't unless it plans to be obliterated, so don't worry about that.

<comment><USER8> Iran is in a war with its own citizens and its own women especially.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not true. Stop lying. Are you eg familiar with the actions taken by the Iranian government which made it possible for people in rural areas to send their daughters to school? Being extremely traditional they were afraid of sending their girls all alone to school. Iran has a very high number of educated women thanks to the policies of the Iranian government.

(edit: yes women still have advances to make in rights vis-a-vis men in Iranian society, but you can hardly call that "war" more than a natural struggle for power between the sexes in a society)

<comment><USER9> "natural struggle for power between the sexes"

There's nothing natural about such a struggle. It's cultural.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I thought about that use of the word ("natural") after I posted, but decided not to edit it out.

I agree with you that it could be cultural. But the behaviour of men wanting to control women seems to be prevalent in many societies regardless of culture.

<comment><USER9> I think it's possible that it's actually just some people wanting to control other people (and setting their sights on weaker people to improve chances of success), and given the biological differences between men and women that leave women with significantly less muscle mass and mass in general, for any given male choosing to act in this way, women are on average easier targets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Great to hear. We in Israel are also planning on sending a person to the moon soon: <http://www.spaceil.com> Innovation in the Middle East is much needed.

<comment><USER11> I'm surprised, that you are glad to hear, that a country with relatively unstable government is making progress toward having ballistic missile capabilities. Actually scratch that. It is progress toward ICBMs, not just ballistic missiles.

Here's a reference to the current state of the program: [http://iranprimer.usip.org/resource/irans-ballistic- missile-...](http://iranprimer.usip.org/resource/irans-ballistic-missile- program)

And a bit more recent update: <http://www.iranwatch.org/wmd/wmd- iranmissileessay.htm>

<comment><USER10> You're right, that is worrisome but I highly doubt it will reach that point. The US and Israel will never allow that to happen.

If only the Iranian government cared about its people and making the world a better and more innovative place...

<comment><USER11> Well, one fact to keep in mind - developing capabilities to launch satellites [payload to orbit] is inseparable from capability to launch ICBMs. That's why first sputnik was both, so inspiring and so scary.

As to 'never allowing this to happen'. There are no such guaranties. I'd guess, the opposite is true. Technology [and as a result advanced weaponry] is only getting more and more accessible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Regardless of your views on the sanctions themselves, this blog post illustrates how effective the US blockade of technology to Iran really is. The Iranian space program is just starting to reach the level of sophistication of hobbyists in the western world.

The post however fails to mention Iran has actually launched a total of 5 satellites, the first two being joint launches with Russia and China.

<comment> guard-of-terra You are plain wrong. Any space program takes years and starts with satellite launches. Look at the Chinese program for example. There is no reason to think US blockade somehow harmed the progress of the program there. And it does not matter much since USSR is known to launch anything they wanted before the modern globalized economics that made blockades possible even existed.

Your comment about hobbysts is plain misleading to. How many hobbysts launch pets into suborbital and orbital flights and get those back in one piece? How many hobbysts can launch a satellite, anyway? Using their own rocket? You can pimp SpaceX to defend your misleading statement, but they are not in any sense hobbysts and their work would not be possible without NASA and it took them long years anyway.

So please stop disregarding other people's achivements. This is just lame.

<comment><USER13> No but Copenhagen Suborbitals are hobbiests. And they expect to launch a suborbital rocket with a human onboard.

And their combined budget is properly less than what NASA use on toilets.

<comment><USER14> Some of those "hobbyists" at Copenhagen Suborbitals are former NASA contractors and they have been working on that project since May 2008, so I think his main point still stands.

It also looks like they're still doing a lot of testing on active guidance systems, rather than trying to put a human up any time soon.

You can see their plans for the rest of this year under Campaigns > 2012 on their main site: <http://www.copenhagensuborbitals.com>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The reason that Iran has no nukes is by self choice. They have always wanted the Japan model, to reach the technological threshold of having nukes without physically building them. This they reached years ago.

</comment><comment><USER16> If Iran is capable of technological progress at this rate, how did Pakistan get a nuke before Iran?

<comment><USER17> The Chinese gave them one!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Thanks user9756 for posting this!</comment>


LGBTQ people were born perfect: A new bill would ban conversion therapy - happy-go-lucky https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/04/27/lgbtq-people-were-born-perfect-a-new-bill-would-ban-conversion-therapy-nationwide/ <comment><AUTHOR> I may just be totally out of the loop, but doesn't the typical transition procedure of the 'T' section of that acronym stand in complete contrast to that "born perfect" statement?

</comment><comment><USER2> Really interesting stuff.

Also interesting that something like gay shock therapy puts people on edge, meanwhile they can inject their 9 year old son with hormones so he can grow breasts and not many bat an eye at it anymore. "Perfect" is entirely subjective.</comment>


Mixpanel analytics accidentally slurped up passwords - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/05/mixpanel-passwords/?q=1 <comment><USER2> One more reason to use adblocker. The beauty of 3rd party scripts running on your website, hijacking people's passwords like it's no big deal.

I've used Mixpanel as a developer and also been disturbed how they combine analytics data with the user profiles creating really detailed profiles what they do on their website. Even that wouldn't be such a big deal if it was obvious to the user but really there is no law stopping companies from doing it. I hope GDPR will clear this thing out in the future and companies can't operate without user's direct consent and opt-in becomes the standard instead of opt-out.

<comment><USER3> That seems crazy to me. It should be illegal for a website to track what you do on that site? We're not talking about tracking activity across many sites, and you don't need a third-party tool to do this at all. If it were illegal, a huge number of sites wouldn't even function without fundamentally changing the way they work. You know that the HN database has records of all your votes, comments, etc, right?

I get the outrage at being tracked by third parties across the web, but that's different from making it illegal for any website to track any of your activity _on their site_.

<comment><USER4> How would startups gather BI information then?

<comment><USER5> Not my problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Looks like Mixpanel is handling this well: they deleted the data, notified affected customers, and then are making sure it can't happen again. +1 for admitting responsibility instead of deflecting or minimizing.

<comment><USER7> Ok, they took responsibility... But they took about a month to notify clients via email and didn't notify the public until Techcrunch inquired for the purposes of writing this article. So -1 for not being upfront with end users and clients.

<comment><USER8> Take away a few more for not noticing the problem for nine months.

<comment><USER9> Would be a good move to put together a common password list and regularly check their data against it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Call me thick and naive if you will, but how does an advert manage to hoover up all typed inputs on a page including (somehow accidentally) passwords.

Isn't the underlying problem with the web browser that allows this, or are browsers just fundamentally broken when it comes to protecting users?

<comment><USER11> Analytics analyze. They read data. Mixpanel decided to read more than they should, and they unintentionally slurped some passwords.

The core technical problem is that scripts can read data. But that's kind of their job. "Solving" that would require to reduce the functionality of webpages.

The core social problem is that people include third-party analytics and advertisements. Solving that would require to destroy the entire adtech industry.

I'm all for the latter solution.

<comment><USER12> Where you will draw the line, then main ad industries will start to serve ads as 1st party as custom subdomains.

There is no way to win this fight except regulations and oversight

<comment><USER13> In this case, they can be made fully responsible. You'd better vet the Javascript you're going to deliver.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Always do ublock origin + privacy badger (and pi hole when you're at home)

<comment><USER15> uMatrix is well worth the time it takes to use too. It shows you a matrix of exactly what each site is requesting. I've become so much more aware of what is happening on websites since installing the plugin about a year ago.

The great thing is that it's so quick and easy to enable/disable/customize too. For example, I've identified two scripts that block websites from loading when it doesn't get loaded... so I allow those to load on every website -- no ads, but the site still loads.

Mixpanel is blocked by default in the blacklist that I subscribe to.

<comment><USER16> Are those two scripts widespread or specific to a site? And if they're quite widespread, would you be able to share how to identify them?

<comment><USER15> Just saw one a few minutes ago. It's actually not even the script you need to allow, it's just an XHR request to adiode.com. I can't remember the other one, I'll report back here when I see it again (usually every couple days).

I saw the adiode.com one on [https://www.merriam- webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com) if you want to have a look for yourself.

<comment><USER11> You mean the "Something interfered with this website loading" fake error screen? Yeah, that "something" is their bloody script. Bastards.

I hit that one pretty much every other day somewhere; I wonder, how did it spread so quickly? It must be linked to by some popular ad network or analytics package.

<comment><USER15> Yup. So if you allow the script to make that XHR request then it thinks the ad blocker is off and it will show the page but not the ads.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> A lot of people talk here about GDPR, but does anyone know how to "handle" this in my ecommerce?

I haven't found any indication on how to do it "legally" or a small "howto". I'm also not interested in an IBM solution that would cost me 10 times my earnings

<comment><USER18> In essence the GDPR requires you to be accountable about all personal data you collect and use in your daily operations.

Compiling a list of all personal data currently located in your systems and making sure you have a legal basis for each item, goes a long way towards compliance (though of course this is not all you need to do)

<comment><USER17> So, let's say:

\- WooCommerce on url xxx: phone number, email,name & address. Google Analytics & facebook Pixel. Requirement for e-commerce fullfillment and analysing website performance / ad performance.

\- Mailchimp : email and name, when accepting WooCommerce "Terms and conditions" n°2. Requirement for recurring ecommerce updates/changes of new products.

\- OpenERP: ( invoicing - local network) - Firstname, lastname, address, email, phone, orders. Requirement for invoicing

Somehow i can't believe that would be sufficient.

<comment><USER18> It can get tricky. Analysing web performance is not a direct requirement to fulfill orders, so you would need an explicit opt-in from your customers that lets them agree to their personal data being used in this way.

With Mailchimp you probably need to let your customers separately opt into their e-mail being used for marketing purposes, as again that use is not strictly required to fulfil their order.

Same with any other information - your customers need to be aware of all the ways you will use their data. If any uses are not covered by a legal agreement, there needs to be an option to opt-in.

<comment><USER17> Analysing performance is a requirement for more sales.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> > We immediately began investigating further and learned that the behavior the > customer was observing was due to a change to the React JavaScript library > made in March 2017. This change placed copies of the values of hidden and > password fields into the input elements' attributes, which Autotrack then > inadvertently received. Upon investigating further, we realized that, > because of the way we had implemented Autotrack when it launched in August > 2016, this could happen in other scenarios where browser plugins (such as > the 1Password password manager) and website frameworks place sensitive data > into form element attributes.

Here's the commit in question: [https://github.com/mixpanel/mixpanel- js/commit/98a1845c5c55f...](https://github.com/mixpanel/mixpanel- js/commit/98a1845c5c55f8b362847517860cc97c35f1c08e) \- as referenced here: [https://github.com/mixpanel/mixpanel- js/issues/164](https://github.com/mixpanel/mixpanel-js/issues/164) .

The meat of it is that the check of the type of the <input> node to ensure it's not "password" or "hidden," now wraps the iteration over attributes as well as inclusion of the value.

That heuristic, though, is far from perfect: see, for instance, [https://www.troyhunt.com/bypassing-browser-security- warnings...](https://www.troyhunt.com/bypassing-browser-security-warnings- with-pseudo-password-fields/) . And even if you're not doing something funky like that, you're not out of the woods. For instance, it's highly likely that a site collecting "secret answers" in plaintext input fields (for password resets) would leak that information to Mixpanel if Autotrack were turned on. This commit does nothing to change that scenario. And while Autotrack is now opt-in, it can be done entirely by a business team with zero interactions with engineering, if (for example) a tag management solution is set up: see [https://mixpanel.com/blog/2015/03/27/community-tip- implement...](https://mixpanel.com/blog/2015/03/27/community-tip-implementing- mixpanel-via-google-tag-manager/) and [https://help.mixpanel.com/hc/en- us/articles/115004613366-Wha...](https://help.mixpanel.com/hc/en- us/articles/115004613366-What-is-Autotrack-and-how-do-I-get-started-using-it-)

SaaS analytics companies, especially those able to slurp up everything into a managed data lake and provide perfect retroactive analysis capabilities, provide a great experience compared to self-hosted solutions, but it's inevitable that you'll end up giving them more information than you'd originally planned. For many businesses, that's the right decision, but it should be one made with eyes wide open.

</comment><comment><USER20> On a side note, Mixpanel used to host conferences but stopped after 2014. Anyone know why?</comment>


Pointer Lock API implemented in Firefox, game developers rejoice - <AUTHOR> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=633602

<comment><AUTHOR> This will appear in Firefox 14, in around 3 months. Google Chrome implemented this not too long ago.

Given the work being done on seamless browser updates, I'm happy to think of the amount of browser installs that will support this in a year or so.

Many games are simply impossible to implement in a straightforward way without being able to lock the mouse. First person shooters are particularly affected.</comment>


Technology's Loser Problem - <AUTHOR> https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/05/30/technologys-loser-problem/

<comment><USER2> I wonder why this got submitted twice? Different URLs? Could the mods combine them?

<comment><USER3> The two URLs are identical, except for "[http://"](http://") vs. "[https://"](https://").</comment></comment>


NanoDoc - <AUTHOR> http://nanodoc.org/ A couple of guys out of the Bhatia Lab at MIT have made a game out of design and optimization of cancer nanotherapeutics. Nanodoc (http://nanodoc.org/) is on online game that allows bioengineers and the general public to design new nanoparticle strategies towards the treatment of cancer. <comment><USER2> Sorry, but requiring a social network account to play this is simply ridiculous. Provide alternative options if you want this to catch on.

<comment><USER3> Yup. I was actually really excited to try this, but was not okay with the permissions it requires for said social networks.

<comment><USER4> Ok, we limited the facebook permissions. Hope this works better!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Login to play...bye!

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't particularly mind having to connect to Facebook, but the permissions required go way beyond what makes sense for what this game claims to be. When I denied access, it caused a server error on the nanodoc website.

<comment><USER4> Thanks! That can easily be changed, what permissions would be acceptable? I'll make the fix.

<comment><USER4> We just restricted the facebook permissions. Should be more acceptable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Great experiment, but I wonder how usefull can be a bunch of people playing a game without any knowledge of biomedicine.

<comment><USER8> I haven't played it yet, but it might be useful in training neural nets?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Great to see another swarm game!

Check out the one we're doing for ICRA this year:

[http://swarmcontrol.herokuapp.com](http://swarmcontrol.herokuapp.com)

(you don't even need to log in to play!)

</comment><comment><USER10> Very cool idea! The name made me think this was something about text editors and documentation, but I doubt most people outside of this context will make that association.

</comment><comment><USER11> Great to see swarm robotics combined with crowd-sourcing - such a natural fit.</comment>


Time is More Valuable than Money - <AUTHOR> http://creativityrulz.blogspot.com/2009/09/time-is-more-valuable-than-money.html

<comment><USER2> There used to be all those advertisements that had a common plot, the dumb person and the wizard.

\- Mary! How did you get all those clothes so white?

\- I use XYX washing powder. Oh! I have to do that!

Articles like the above remind me of this. If your time is valuable don't waste reading it!</comment>


Neil deGrasse Tyson: 'How Much Would You Pay for the Universe?'  - <AUTHOR> http://www.openculture.com/2012/03/neil_degrasse_tyson_how_much_would_you_pay_for_the_universe.html <comment><USER3> This is a re-post of an earlier comment but I think it's very applicable to this article:

The Chinese explored the Middle East and Africa almost 100 years before the Europeans. Every expedition consisted of 300 ships, some as long as 400 feet with 9 mast and an armada crew totaling 28,000 men. After 30 years of doing it they realized that they were spending too much money on these grand expeditions. The succeeding emperor ended the program. The Europeans on the other hand would send out just a few ships and try to find ways for the expeditions to be profitable (Slaves, gold, land, colonies) in ways the Chinese never thought. These smaller European expeditions could not be stopped by one emperor because Europe was not a unified empire like China. The smaller European kingdoms also competed against each other. This not only made the expeditions sustainable but thrive for the next 500 years. Right now I think we are in China's situation 600 years ago. We stopped the moon landings for the same reason the Chinese stopped landing Eunuchs in Africa. Unless we find a way for these space programs to be profitable I don't see humans colonizing space anytime soon.

<comment><USER4> I think the argument about dreams feeding the pipeline of scientists and technologists of the future is a sound one and speaks to the hearts of scientists and technologists everywhere.

I know a robot is cheaper and safer than a manned spacecraft, but are we really willing to make our robots live our adventures while we sit on our couches watching TV?

Space travel has to be profitable, of course. It also has to be cheap. Now think of the price tag of a single F-22. Or the colossal clusterfuck that the F-35 project became. Couldn't we persuade just a couple nations to dedicate the budget of a single aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine to help fund the dreams of the next generation instead?

<comment><USER5> Robots make for great expedition R&D. They can gather a lot of information very cheaply compared to manned spaceflight.

I'm not sure space travel has to be profitable. Certainly Christopher Columbus's voyage was not considered (by most people at the time) to be profitable. Yet economies of scale could definitely be taken into account. It is often said that the computing power of the Apollo missions to the moon were less than that of a TI calculator. It seems we should be able to have unmanned missions to the moon by private sector or even partially public funded. After all were sending DIY cameras into near space.

<comment><USER3> Of course they don't necessarily have to be profitable. The Chinese continued their expeditions for 30 years without being "profitable". My point is that if you want a sustained program that will grow, being self sustaining would be necessary. Eventually it has to pay for itself. I don't think the Europeans would have continued their expeditions if all the returns they got were 100 years of financial losses.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> (This is written from an American perspective, and reposted from elsewhere - but I think it fits.)

For much of my life, when we spend money on space, we get not-space.

For the money we spent on the X-30, X-33, X-34, and X-38, when Dan Goldin was NASA administrator, what did we get? Not-space. (At least the X-37 is up there spyingflying.)

The orbital space plane program, the one that was Sean O'Keefe's thing - <USER2> plans, more capsules than planes IIRC, but ultimately we got not-space from it.

The Vision for Space Exploration, under Michael Griffin? Rocket designs that were approximately equivalent to throwing your astronauts into a paint mixer. A system about which the review panel said that "If they gave us the system on a silver platter, the first thing we'd have to do is cancel it, because we couldn't afford the ongoing costs." A lot of money, a launch pad rusting in the Florida weather, and a whole lot of not-space.

And for all the money we spend on human spaceflight, we now send Astronauts up as passengers in Soyuz rockets.

Now we're spending $18 billion dollars - figure subject to change, always upward - to build the SLS - the Senate Launch System. (Another estimate has it at $40B for development and the first 4 flights.) If all things go as planned, it will launch once every two years, launching an unmanned trip around the moon in 2017 and a manned trip to the moon in 2019. Schedule subject to change - always slipping.

Does anyone thing that SLS has a chance of working? Or is it just going to become another not-space program?

How about the replacement for the Hubble Space Telescope, the Webb Space Telescope? In 1997, it was going to be launched in 2007, and it was going to have cost 500 million dollars. Now we've spent 3.5 billion on it, and it will launch in 2018. Maybe. That's a ton of money to spend on not-space - and it's money that's been taken away from the moderately successful bits of NASA, like the Mars program, which doesn't have a mission in it after 2013's MAVEN.

I don't mind spending money on space. I like space. I've been following the MER rovers for nearly a decade. I think COTS and Commercial Crew are brilliant, and hope that they will continue to exist with a program structure that rewards results, rather than existence. Commercial space is the last best hope to get a domestic space capability.

But times are tight. We're massively overspending as is - borrowing tons of money our grandchildren will still be paying back. So increased spending is far from free.

Is it worth it? I say yes. Spend money on space. Where do we get that money? Let's stop spending it on not-space, like we have been.

<comment><USER7> > But times are tight. We're massively overspending as is - borrowing tons of > money our grandchildren will still be paying back. So increased spending is > far from free.

FYI, if you remove all NASA spending from the budget, the total deficit remains the same out to something like 3 or 4 significant figures.

<comment><USER8> What's your point?

Break down the budget categories enough, and you can say the exact same thing about anything. "If you remove tank spending from the budget, the total deficit remains the same out to something like 3 or 4 significant figures." Guess we should keep buying tanks, too.

<comment><USER9> Except, historically $1 billion for tanks today meant $1+ billion for tanks for the foreseeable future.

The actual long-term costs of $1 billion military spending are far more than those of $1 billion of NASA spending (and let's not even get into the economic reward of said spending).

<comment><USER10> And $1 billion to Nasa today means another billion next year, and the year after that...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Great rhetoric by Tyson, but completely misses the point that innovation in space travel is now completely the domain of NewSpace companies like Armadillo Airspace, SpaceX, and Virgin Galactic rather than governments.

NASA no longer innovates. It's coasting on past glories. If a fraction of the billions spent on NASA were left untaxed in the hands of individuals like Carmack, Musk, Thiel, and Branson -- and allowed to wend their way towards NewSpace investments rather than wasted on NASA boondoggles -- we'd all be much better off.

Also, it's not at all obvious that we want to keep focusing on manned missions, which Tyson mentions explicitly. You can iterate much more rapidly on unmanned drones as you need save nothing for the way back, and the costs of failure are far less. Tyson recognizes part of the human psychological factors at play (the motivation of wartime) but doesn't recognize that wanting humans in space instead of far more machines is emotional rather than practical right now.

Get the costs of putting things into orbit down with machines, and humans will follow. But let's not put the cart before the horse.

</comment><comment><USER12> This makes me think of crowd-funded space exploration.

Kickstarter is still far from mainstream and making million dollar projects. Petridish.org opens the possibility of tax-payers willingly donate a monthly value to science. Now imagine if all of these went mainstream with a celebrity like Neil Tyson as the front face of a project to help fund SpaceX? Viable?

</comment><comment><USER13> I love the idea of supporting space science, ut in a deficit ridden economy, is this extra percent of spending more valuable than health care research, lowering the cost of education or solving world hunger?

Before going to Mars I would like a decent school on my street.

<comment><USER14> Much like manned spaceflight the problems of public schools in America is not one of funding.

If you look at a graph of average inflation adjusted spending per student at public schools it's just a monotonically increasing line from the end of WWII until today, it just goes up, and up, and up.

But does average student educational outcome match such graphs? Not in the least. The problem is that the incentives are all wrong and the money keeps getting funneled to the wrong people. The ratio of administrative staff to students has grown and grown. The biggest influence that active parents have had on schools over the past few decades has not been on increasing educational quality but on driving administrative policy through excessive litigation. Increasingly K-12 public schools are little more than prisons where kids do busy work and if they're lucky the smart ones learn how to teach themselves and most of the rest pick up enough of the basics through repetition or osmosis.

Don't expect the results to change until the system changes.

<comment><USER13> Indeed, but I hate to believe taxes for the space money is well spent when the taxes for the school down the street isn't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> There's some rampant, blind and heart crumbling cynicism is going on in this thread.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too"

Or we could just build websites, obsess over stuff that will be forgotten in a year and shit all over other peoples grand ideas.

</comment><comment><USER16> Wow, just wow. That is all I could think while watching that. Neil deGrasse Tyson is such a great orator. It wouldn't surprise me if he becomes President some day.

<comment><USER17> He's stated explicitly before that he has no interest in politics whatsoever.

<comment><USER16> He sounds pretty fired up about this issue, which is one of the main reasons why people get into politics.

<comment><USER17> From the horse's mouth: [http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/read/2011/08/21/if-i-...](http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/read/2011/08/21/if- i-were-president)

I agree with him. Politicians are a reflection of the electorate. One can have even _more_ of a positive impact by educating and energizing the electorate than as one lone politician.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It would be nice to have the video without the damn music so I can actually hear what he's saying :/

<comment><USER19> The first 2 minutes is from this Daily Show interview: [http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon- february-27-2012/neil-...](http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon- february-27-2012/neil-degrasse-tyson)

<comment><USER18> Thankyou sir =)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The other major frontier of exploration isn't faring any better:

"More people have walked on the surface of the Moon than have visited the bottom of the Marianas Trench. We've even been to the Moon more recently than we have the very bottom of the sea."

[http://io9.com/5894566/james-cameron-says-the-current- state-...](http://io9.com/5894566/james-cameron-says-the-current-state-of- ocean-exploration-is-piss-poor-hes-right?popular=true)

</comment><comment><USER21> The NASA remote sensing budget is being cut by 30%. That's very bad news for Earth Science and the validation of climate models, let alone for the exploration of space.

Source: [http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/07/house- appr...](http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/07/house- appropriators-propose-big-.html)

</comment><comment><USER22> Assuming that private enterprise isn't getting us into space fast enough, we will need a new cold war to get the world's governments fearful enough to throw money at the problem, and to demand solutions.

Perhaps China will do the honors?

</comment><comment><USER23> It might be a foregone conclusion, but $42.

On a side note, I think current and recent generations rarely look to space with the complete awe that say, generations in the 60's and 70's did.

How can spacexy be brought back?

</comment><comment><USER24> "After we stopped going to the moon, it all ended. We stopped dreaming."

Because we saw what it got us. All that money, effort, and enthusiasm got us a couple dozen guys on a dead rock for a few dozen hours. Adding a couple zeros to the budget improves the situation from grey to red rock. Beyond that, we soon get to what some writer (escaping me at the moment) noted: humans just can't comprehend interstellar distances, the vast effort required to achieve even mundane results. Too much cost for too little result. My hopes remain high, but my expectations are more content with what's happening here on Earth. At 44 I realize how short life is.

</comment><comment><USER25> Is it just me or does 0.4% of the tax base on Nasa seem really reasonable. If I had had to guess, I would have put it way lower.

</comment><comment><USER26> it finished when i had wet eyes so I think it was well done. And facts are scary. From monetary point of view, bailout cost more than 50 years of NASA? two years military spending. Gosh, thats sad...

</comment><comment><USER27> I hate Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Not on a personal level, mind you. He's probably a nice guy to have beers with. But he's a shill for NASA. He's a good shill, but he's a shill, nonetheless.

A little background. I'm old enough to have been "inspired" by the Space Shuttle Program near the point of its inception. Imagine a young mkn sitting down with a pencil and paper to work out how much it would cost to buy himself a ticket on the Space Shuttle at the promised $50/lb. I weighed 70 lbs. I knew it would be more than $3500 because I'd have to eat and breathe while I was up there. I wondered if I could go naked to save some cash. But still, it was a nice number. And then, the number changed. The promise went up to $100/lb. Fine. The math was easier. Oh, and the number of launches went from 26/year down to 12/year. Not quite the airline-style operations they had promised, but not bad. And then the price went to $500/lb. 3 or 4 launches per year. And then, the media just stopped talking about the costs and launch frequency, probably because it quit showing up in the press kits.

Tyson complains that we don't dream about the future anymore. He's right. We don't. But he complains without the slightest hint of irony. The promise of NASA was that the costs would come down. The promise was that spaceflight would become routine and affordable. The promise tapped into the then-current emphasis on mobility in the American Dream. Tyson is right that we don't dream about the future anymore. But we don't dream about it because NASA has proven to us what the future is. The future is NASA, and the future is stagnation. We have all been "inspired" by NASA. We don't dream because we don't need to. We know.

Tyson breathlessly opines about all the amazing things NASA could do with twice the budget. Missions to Mars! To those, I have this to say: Big fucking deal. The promise of NASA was never its "missions". The missions were a vehicle for the promise. The promise was ubiquitous space access. I'm going to see my cousin on the Moon. We're taking a year and seeing Mars. Sending some highly-selected and highly-trained spam in a can for some fahrt around a crater is not the promise. Sending you and me there for a fahrt around a crater is. Somehow or other, that part of the promise has slipped out of NASA enthusiasts memory. Long live NASA! All we have to do is pay twice as much!

The imagery of the Shuttle and of the new capsule is especially offensive. It's the easiest thing in the world to verify that the Shuttle was the most expensive launch system ever conceived in the history of manned space flight. It is, as I've hinted above, the primary reason for the complete demoralization of the populace with regards to space flight. And it was promised to be so much better than that. The Orion capsule is all that is left of that disgraced launcher program, the one that retained the disgraced SRBs to placate Morton-Thiokol.

NASA can't. That's my new slogan. Unlike other slogans, which are mainly inspirational, mine is intended to remind me of reality. Take any dream you have about space and phrase it as a question, and the answer is "NASA can't". Will we build orbiting habitats in space on a massive scale? NASA can't. Will we ever colonize the Moon or Mars? NASA can't. Will we ever be able to realistically dream of democratic access to space? NASA can't. Every time you hear Tyson speak, just remember: NASA can't. And it ain't for lack of funds.

I wish Tyson would other shut the hell up or direct his energies and oratorical gifts at making NASA an agency worth supporting. But, he won't. He's a cheap shill, and he's just going to keep doing his shabby job.

<comment><USER28> Definitely a bit intense, but I agree with the sentiment here. It's a shame that someone (judging by the popularity of his reddit AMAs) so talented at communicating science and technology to the public could be so shortsighted in his view of spaceflight's future. In regards to affordable spaceflight, NASA can't, but perhaps SpaceX and other private companies with brave entrepreneurs at the helm can. It would be nice if Neil DeGrasse Tyson were to meet with Elon Musk and hear his vision of humanity's future in space.

<comment><USER29> Question: Who pays SpaceX? Where is their revenue coming from?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> It was harder for Columbus to reach the west and bring back treasures than it is for us to reach the asteroid belt and bring back exotic materials. What is missing is not technology (need is the mother of invention) but a reason to go. Was Columbus 100% sure his mission would be profitable?

What if Columbus waited another 100 years for a safer option to cross the mysterious expanse? History would be much different.

<comment><USER31> Attitudes toward risk are a lot different now as well. No one would bat an eye at ships being lost at sea, or a ship returning with a quarter of her crew. It was considered inherent that any chance at exploration or glory would come with mortal danger.

Our current attitudes towards exploration is more like the large corporation. Playing to avoid loss, rather than playing to win.

<comment><USER32> How Much Is an Astronaut's Life Worth? [http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/26/how-much-is-an- astrona...](http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/26/how-much-is-an-astronauts- life-worth)

<comment><USER33> Great article, thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I wonder, in a future where space exploration is minimal and performed by robots, and where non-war (by technicality) is waged by drones, who will the heroes be?

<comment><USER35> Humanity doesn't really _need_ war heroes.

Edit: or the robots will be programmed with markov generators to tweet some stirring last words.</comment></comment>


ASKHN: Advice regarding my wiki project - <AUTHOR>

Hi.I operate wikiaudio.It doesn't garner that much traffic but regardless I would like to explore the possibilities of making it a multilingual project. The problem is I only speak English so I would need to find incentives to have, at the very least, one multilingual moderator per language.So, I was wondering what kind of incentives do you think I could present to attract anyone who would possibly want the role? I have a loose idea for a "business model" but it requires high volume traffic and a reliable community of audio fanatics.At this point I can hardly get anyone to contribute to this thing in English let alone another language, but personally I'm ok with that because I enjoy building it up myself and see the long term value in doing so.I thought I would ask for perspectives.Thanx <comment><USER2> Maybe you could start by seeding content in english. Once there is traction and people start seeing the value of the platform/community there will be volunteers to help add multilingual support.</comment>


It took four mojitos and a car crash for Grab to tell her: 'You're hired' - <AUTHOR> https://www.techinasia.com/grab-goh-tiasg2018 <comment><USER2> hi!

Please stop with the blog spam. <3 [https://imgur.com/a/pAErOLN](https://imgur.com/a/pAErOLN)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, will do! Sorry about that!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What "dumbphones" are available and viable in the US? - <AUTHOR> There's an increasing interest in "dumbphones" these days, but it seems that options for a basic phone are fairly limited in the US market.<p>If you have switched, what did you switch to? If you're looking to switch, what are you considering? <comment><USER3> Last time I got a phone, which is a few years ago now, I looked up the cheapest shit flip phone walmart sells and went to the store with the model number. The guy I asked it for didn't even know they sold it but it was down in some closed stock case, it was model A117 I believe or something else really close to it and it was like $20. I must admit though, it is a step down in quality from my previous flip phone that finally died after it got ran over twice busting a corner and exposing a ribbon cable which eventually failed and killed the screen (likely from me fucking with it).

The downside is maps would be useful sometimes, especially once google cancelled their free text-for-directions service. On the upside, I don't have to charge it but once every few days and if I still got a good 12 hours of battery once it gets to the low mark.

My next phone I will probably do the same, and because im only spending 10-20 bucks, I figure if I don't like it enough I can easily get a new one. The one thing I would make sure is that you can use a microsd card to put a different ringtone, all the default tones are like the screeching of satan's dirty asshole.

<comment><USER4> I've never heard of text for directions...

I wonder how hard it would be to set up a server connected to twilio, get the directions from google maps (or Open Street maps) and text it back. I might add that to my growing list of projects I'll likely never make.

<comment><USER5> It was actually part of the Google Search via SMS; You'd text 466453 - <USER2> spells Google - with the keywords: directions <your current address> to <destination> and they would text you back turn by turn directions.

They had other features as well but it was discontinued in 2013 if memory serves correctly.

There are now costs associated with Google Maps; Directions have two costs: basic (0.005) and advanced (0.010) - the advanced includes traffic. You also need to factor in the cost for sms delivery and short codes, to make it easier, so you'd need to monetize from the start unless you want to lose money.

Hardest part is parsing the commands eg current location and destination as folks make mistakes and you might need to have a back and forth dialogue via sms to get further details.

To get a concept off the ground wouldn't take much time but to perfect it and refine the parsing of commands would take some effort.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Has anybody mentioned the Punkt MP-01? [https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp01-mobile- phone/](https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp01-mobile-phone/)

I've had it for 2-3 years now and it's been pretty great. Granted service can be kinda spotty because it's 2G and I'm not sure how much longer it will be viable when 2G is phased out. It's also very expensive compared to dumb alternatives but I don't know of any other phone on the market that is so clean in terms of physical design and UX.

Punkt is making an MP-02 which will run on 4G I believe but I'm not sure if it will be as minimal. I think they're partnering with Blackberry to bring like secure email or messaging or something, which to me seems anti-dumphone, but I guess people expressed demand in a user survey...

<comment><USER7> FYI, 2g is not a safe choice for security. For an introduction to the security issues, take a look at how the encryption can be easily broken: [https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-28166-...](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-28166-7_17)

<comment><USER8> In addition to being a security hazard, lots of countries (e.g. Canada) are phasing out or have already removed their 2G networks.

Fortunately they have announced a 4G model coming soon which I am keeping my eye on: [https://www.punkt.ch/en/mp02-4g-mobile- phone/](https://www.punkt.ch/en/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I have a "dumb phone", which in the context of my post means a phone that does calling and texting, and does not have WiFi. It is a backup phone in case my main phone dies, so that I can continue to do two-step auth in certain situations.

What I ended up doing was going on Amazon, to their Cell Phone section, pulling up the list of unlocked phones, and limiting the search to $50 or less. That got me a BLU Tank model (which does not run Android, and was not one of the "sends data back to the manufacturer" models) for something like $25.

It's interesting, though, in that although my phone doesn't do apps, or email, it still supports multimedia (music, images, video, via a microSD card). Also (like, I understand, many phones mainly used in the APAC region) it has an FM tuner, and includes dual SIM support.

To be clear, though, this is just a backup phone. I keep it charged, and I turn it on once in a while, but I don't use it regularly. Still, redoing my Amazon search shows that there are alot of models to choose from!

<comment><USER10> > It's interesting, though, in that although my phone doesn't do apps, or > email, it still supports multimedia (music, images, video, via a microSD > card)

Well, that's what `dumb/feature` phones was doing at their times. There were Java applications, that could access the web/mail/stuff but I wouldn't consider them as real "mail/whatever support" as there were no notifications, background sync and stuff.

My suggestion to OP:

Buy refurbished Nokia 5310.

Pros: \- it looks beautiful \- it's size is just right \- it works very fast, including multimedia \- it has dedicated multimedia keys \- good battery time (as every dump phone should have, comparing to smartphones) \- cheap (Aliexpress prices are starting at $25, but see Cons before you buy)

Cons: \- watch out for bad quality refurbs. Ask seller for real photo, this is an example of bad refurb: [https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nokia/724717466.html](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Nokia/724717466.html) \- metal parts replaced with cheap looking plastic, both numeric keyboard and multimedia buttons looks not-solid \- multimedia keys can be fragile from putting phone into your pants pockets. If metal part around the buttons sticks out - it will hook your pants material and start to stick out even more. I had used this phone few years and it was ok, but seen some people that had this problem

Suggestion number 2:

There are A LOT of dumb phones produced by sometimes not-well-known brands, but they are good ones. They are cheap and you can choose from many models. Get a friend from Europe to help you if you are located in US (I assume you are, maybe wrongly)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Not sure if it qualifies as a dumbphone, but I'm eyeing the Lightphone. It's definitely more expensive than the old bricks, but way cheaper than the usual smartphone.

[https://www.thelightphone.com/home/](https://www.thelightphone.com/home/)

<comment><USER12> Just watched the indiegogo video for lightphone 2. I must say that while the phone seemed to make sense at first, when they mentioned music, Uber, etc. now being integrated I became lost.

At some point I don't understand the difference between this product and a smartphone. Want to remove yourself from "feeds"? Don't download the apps that house them.

<comment><USER13> To add on to other commenters: Uber/Lyft are services, not entertainment or distraction. I don't know anybody who "zones out" of life by ordering cars.

Disclaimer: recently signed up for lightphone 2 pre-order. Personally, I just super like the minimalist e-ink display and I hope it will help me disconnect from the news cycle.

<comment><USER14> Uninstalling the BS apps helps you also disconnect from the "news cycle" (whatever that might be) [1]. The advantage of lightphone is that it is a next-gen dumbphone. It has high battery uptime, yet has a touchscreen (e-ink) with some basic functions. I find it very expensive for what it delivers, but right now its a unique niche (e-ink wise).

[1] I do not visit Facebook or Twitter nor do I have their apps on my smartphone. I do visit HN though.

<comment><USER13> If you get your news from websites, rather than apps, then there's nothing to uninstall unless you want to uninstall the internet.

Personally, I mapped addictive sites like reddit to 0.0.0.0 in the hostfile, so I could have just the right amount of internet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Phones are a real problem for people as they age or experience visual, auditory, motor-skills and cognitive decline.

For folks like that any kind of smartphone with "off-the-shelf" software is a non-starter-- too many options, too small, not tactile.

The problem with "dumb" flip-phones is that they tend to be small and slippery. An arthritic octogenarian will have a hard time even opening a flip phone.

The ones that are "designed" for old folks tend to be setup as "medical alert" devices-- a big red button on the back and all the drawbacks of a regular flip phone. They're more designed for paranoid family members than the actual users.

The phone I purchased for my octogenarian mother is an Alcatel "GO Flip". She has difficulty opening it and the buttons are too small. As a work around I programmed numbers "1","2","3","4" as a speed-dial to me and the rest as a speed dial to my brother. She knows to press "1" for me and "9" for my brother. I tell her to hold down the number until she sees my (or my brother's) picture. $75~ for the phone, $20/month for no-contract unlimited talk/text (she doesn't use text)-- that's it. That's the best I can do.

<comment><USER16> Which makes me think, isn't it easier to set up a Google Assistant/ Echo to be able to call your relative ?

I don't understand why there isn't more focus in assistant to support elderly people because there is a huge market. (but maybe I missed it because I am not affected yet)

<comment><USER15> Yes, I think I would have considered that if she were still at home, but she is in a skilled nursing facility. Their wifi network isn't reliable enough for that.

There are also mobility concerns. Something like an echo/assistant would still need to have a "satellite" handset or have microphones and speakers that are good enough for communication with an elderly person in another part of the room.

I think anyone developing a communication product for the elderly should definitely spend serious time inside nursing homes. These are challenging problems.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I don't have an answer (yet), but I am tracking on KaiOS[1] for a future replacement. Once there is some decent and accessible hardware behind it, I feel it may be my next 'upgrade'. There's the Nokia 8110[2] but it's not available to me yet.

[1][https://www.kaiostech.com/](https://www.kaiostech.com/)

[2][https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g](https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-8110-4g)

<comment><USER18> Note that Google (recent large investment) and Facebook are KaiOS "partners" so don't assume data privacy for very long.

<comment><USER19> KaiOS has also played it loose with releasing the source code for their feature phone flavor of B2G. They've had 2 years, no code has been forthcoming. I certainly wouldn't trust them, and would have to audit the activity of their devices before I'd use them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I got the Fsmart M5 off Amazon for $20 and is the size of a credit card.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UWT5DM4/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UWT5DM4/)

Works great on T-Mobile, with one exception: it cannot receive MMS, so you don't get notified if someone sends a photo or group text.

<comment><USER21> When the 2G networks are shut down, this phone will no longer work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Samsung phones have a low power mode on everything from s5 and up that disables every function of the phone (every sensor and radio) except texting and calling and 4 apps of your choice. It's much smarter to just disable your current phone than to completely replace it with something inferior and harder to use like an old flipphone. Samsung also makes modern flip phones running Android that have all the same simplicity of being able to be closed and of course not having apps installed if you so choose.

<comment><USER23> This is a really good solution for someone who wants to go nuclear on the smartphone, but isn't sure. You'll find out quick if your willpower is the main issue.

<comment><USER24> I've known for a long time that my willpower is the issue, because I've never been a fan of turning on notifications. I tend to keep it to only chat apps having notification rights, which would still translate to text notifications on a dumbphone. Pretty much any other time wasting I do on my phone is because I pull it out without prompting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> If the reasons for a "dumbphone" are smaller size, longer battery life, decreased media consumption, and increased privacy – then such a tiny smartphone as Xperia XZ1 Compact[1] with AOSP ROM without Google provided by Sony[2] would still cut the mark.

[1] [https://www.sonymobile.com/global- en/products/phones/xperia-...](https://www.sonymobile.com/global- en/products/phones/xperia-xz1-compact/specifications/)

[2] [https://developer.sony.com/file/download/software- binaries-f...](https://developer.sony.com/file/download/software-binaries-for- aosp-oreo-android-8-1-kernel-4-4-yoshino/)

<comment><USER26> I do this with the Sony Xperia X. Updates are relatively frequent [1]. There are a few bugs with the AOSP version. For example, the phone doesn't come out of sleep when the alarm goes off. Otherwise, I'm very happy with it. Plus it's fun to hack the OS when I get time.

[1] [https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/latest- updat...](https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/latest-updates/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Looking at the answers here, why is it so hard to get a cheap phone in the US?

Last week in Europe I got an unlocked Nokia 105 Dual Sim for $12. It's the dumbest phone but with 30(!) days stand-by time on a single charge.

 _edit_ : added "unlocked"

<comment><USER28> I believe US carriers have began to shutdown their 2G network, so 3G is a requirement. Most of these dumb phones only have 2G hardware though.

I'm not sure why the EU hasn't done the same though.

<comment><USER29> There are way too many M2M users of 2G to close it down, at least in the Nordics. E.g. electricity meters in Finland commonly use GPRS.

3G will probably be closed before 2G.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> My mom just recently got a Alcatel GO FLIP which is one of the first phones with KaiOS. I messed around with it a little and was very impressed by the OS. If you're wanting to get a dumbphone, but not go back 20 years in technological advancement, check out KaiOS phones.

<comment><USER31> Nokia's 8110 4G looks somewhat interesting, it's KaiOS, relatively basic on- board, but can act as a hotspot for your tablet or laptop.

<comment><USER32> +1 for the Nokia 8110 4G. I had to go to Europe to get it, but I am very pleased so far. Very minimal with a few critical "smart" features like the wifi hotspot. For some reason it also has Google Maps, though it's barely functional.

<comment><USER25> > For some reason it also has Google Maps, though it's barely functional.

Google invested in KaiOS to get its services pre-installed[1]. Soon, you won't be able to get a phone without Google, unless it's targeted at Chinese market or is made by Apple.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/28/17513036/google-kaios- inv...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/28/17513036/google-kaios-investment- feature-phones-firefox-os-apps-services-strategy)

<comment><USER14> > Google invested in KaiOS to get its services pre-installed[1]. Soon, you > won't be able to get a phone without Google, unless it's targeted at Chinese > market or is made by Apple.

I agree with your concern, but I can report there are alternatives:

* SailfishOS (version 3 is due), successor or Maemo/MeeGo, uses Mer and official ports have Android emulation [1]

* LineageOS (with or without MicroG) [2] [3]

* UBPorts, a community project continuation of Ubuntu Touch [4]

* PureOS [5]

And then there's CopperheadOS though it has imploded last time I checked, and PostmarketOS which is a nice alternative if all else isn't updated anymore or otherwise fails.

I'm using LineageOS with MicroG on a FP2. If anyone got questions about that, shoot.

[1] [https://jolla.com/sailfish3/](https://jolla.com/sailfish3/)

[2] [https://lineage.microg.org/](https://lineage.microg.org/)

[3] [https://lineageos.org/](https://lineageos.org/)

[4] [https://ubports.com/](https://ubports.com/)

[5] [https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/)

<comment><USER25> It's not about a lack of alternatives, but about the lack of accessibility to them. How many phones can we find on Amazon shipping with any of these OSes today?

<comment><USER14> Yes, there are various problems with these alternatives such a lack of availability, a lack of backwards compatibility. Many of these problems are related to the network effect.

But also to your bubble. SailfishOS targets upcoming markets such as India and Russia. So no, you won't find those on _Amazon_. I wouldn't use Amazon as the sole holy grail in this regard. Also, you can buy a Sony Xperia X and buy a SailfishOS license for it. You can run in on a device such as a FP2.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I'm thinking about downgrading to a Blackberry Classic. Not quite a dumb phone, but from what I've seen it's much more of a _tool_ than an entertainment/social-media/time-wasting device, which is exactly what I'm looking for. There's no way I could do without navigation, so I don't think anything more dumb will work for me.

<comment><USER34> I recently did exactly this. I'm heading to DefCon next week and the Classic is a nice hands-off high security device I can use for just about my email and little else. Did the same last year with an older 'Berry as well and it helped me to enjoy the conference rather than my phone.

<comment><USER35> Email still works without carrier/BB support for push email?

<comment><USER36> Yes. I've been using a Blackberry Classic for over a year now ("upgraded" from an old Nokia Symbian phone). Does plain IMAP (TLS 1.2), with IMAP IDLE support just fine. Only annoying "feature" of the email client is that it insists on sending HTML mail by default, to send text/plain you have to set it per message/thread.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I never switched. Still using my business class Nokia E72. It has a decent camera, sd card for storage, Opera browser for basic internet, HERE offline maps for navigation. And putty terminal for SSH connections to a remote system. Fits in my trouser pocket unlike the massive smartphones. I keep two spare ones in case it breaks. It broke once, i opened it up, cleaned the inside, put back together and it still works like new. Get them on second hand on ebay.

</comment><comment><USER38> Are there any that can act as dumbphones _and_ hotspots for my tablet or laptop?

<comment><USER39> The Nokia 8110 4g, which is still not out, should do that. It's a little bit expensive though...

<comment><USER40> > The unique shape also means you can spin the phone in ways you never > imagined. [1]

Amazing marketing!

[1] [https://www.nokia.com/en_gb/phones/nokia-8110-4g](https://www.nokia.com/en_gb/phones/nokia-8110-4g)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'm gonna take a wild guess, based on my knowledge from about 10 years ago, that your best bet is going to be prepaid providers. Dunno what they're doing nowadays, but I used to use a Tracfone Wireless phone, which cost $20–30 at Walmart for the hardware, and iirc about $60 per 120-minute card—although there were frequent promotions, so I acquired coupon codes for my family when I was in high school to help save money. The unfortunate thing was that it cost 0.3 minutes per SMS. Also the deal is that you have to buy minutes every so often to extend your service period. Anyway, if they're still doing a "basic hardware" type option then that could be something to look into.

<comment><USER42> I have a friend who got a really tiny (like, fits in your wallet tiny) cell phone from China. Worked fine when he put the SIM card in, and the audio quality was really solid.

<comment><USER43> Can you get us a link?

<comment><USER44> I'm going to guess this: [https://odditymall.com/credit-card-wallet- phone](https://odditymall.com/credit-card-wallet-phone)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I haven't tested this idea, but what about using a regular smartphone, and simply uninstall or not enable most of the features?

Don't want to be distracted? Turn off notifications. Don't want access to email? Don't set up the email account.

<comment><AUTHOR> Frankly, addiction and bad habits make it very difficult to sustain that when it's easy to re-enable things.

I have hardly any notifications, my phone is perpetually on silent with vibrate disabled (I often miss calls and texts), and I have no "social media" apps beyond iMessage/Signal. But I still reach for it at every idle moment (most time being spent in the browser).

The one app I truly need is a keepass client. Not sure how I will overcome that without a smartphone.

<comment><USER13> I agree. Mobile internet is a double-edged sword: super useful, super distracting / addicting. Several years ago, I rooted my android to add sites such as reddit and nytimes (news junkie) to map to 0.0.0.0 in the hostfile, effectively blocking them. Then, I removed the file navigator (ES File Explorer).

I have found this sufficient.

<comment><USER46> Why not block hacker news? Not as addicting as the others?

Edit: oops didn't see your list wasn't exhaustive.

<comment><USER13> HackerNews also seems to be designed to be less addicting and immediately rewarding, don't you think? It's more geared towards technical deep reads than BBC or something similar.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> The Zerophone is an interesting DIY dumbphone built on top of an RPi Zero. I've been considering getting one.

[https://wiki.zerophone.org/index.php/Main_Page](https://wiki.zerophone.org/index.php/Main_Page)

<comment><AUTHOR> I have previously contributed to that project :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> One option I've seen is the Nokia 3310 3G [1] for $60 in the US. I have it.

[1] [https://www.nokia.com/en_us/phones/nokia-3310-3g](https://www.nokia.com/en_us/phones/nokia-3310-3g)

<comment><USER49> I hate this phone. Typing is slow. I swap auto completion dictionaries a lot. Limited memory forces you to delete previous reminders and sms conversations. Deleting them is done with a menu system that is inconsistent; the same command jumps to different positions. Mms does not work with my provider. With some types of phones i call, there is some weird feedback of electronic noise that is only audible on my side. Stay away from this phone!

<comment><USER48> > Typing is slow. I swap auto completion dictionaries a lot.

Maybe this is not the phone for your usages. I do not expect to type much on it, only brief SMS and calls only.

> Limited memory forces you to delete previous reminders and sms > conversations. Deleting them is done with a menu system that is > inconsistent; the same command jumps to different positions.

It has 128MiB internal memory and an SD card slot for expanded storage. Do you have a version of the phone with less storage?

> Mms does not work with my provider.

Why would MMS not work? There are known issues switching from iPhone to non- iPhone due to Apple switching to use iMessage between iPhones. Going back results in missed messages. Could that be your issue?

Earlier incarnations of this phone did not have 3G support and also not quad- band.

> With some types of phones i call, there is some weird feedback of electronic > noise that is only audible on my side.

Perhaps you got a bad build? Get a replacement and try again? Do some process of elimination: try with a headset and see if it goes away.

Overall I am lowering my expectations going to a phone like this, as one should. I only expect to do calls, simple SMS, and slow typing. But I have high expectations for long battery life and I will get this.

It's just a telephone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Verizon sells one they claim is LTE capable. Consumer Cellular has a couple of grandpa-friendly models. Or you could just get something like an Apple Watch 3 with LTE, which achieves a similar goal.

<comment><USER51> I have the T-Mobile version of the LTE dumbphone (Alcatel Go Flip). It can be used as a hotspot, wifi calling, and HD voice (much clearer than previous dumbphones). KaiOS is really laggy unfortunately.

I haven't used that phone in 6 months or so because I switched to an Apple Watch series 3. I've never had a smartphone as my actual phone. I synced it to my SIM on my wife's phone with my Apple ID, then reset her phone back to her stuff.

The watch works great as my only phone. Eats batter power, about 15 hours per charge, less if I talk or listen to music more than a couple hours per day. Looking forward to watchOS 5 because it will the phone self-manage wifi settings, which should fix a lot of the battery issues. Right now I can only connect to one wifi network (since I don't have a phone to sync to that manages it). Once I can connect to my home and office wifi, battery life will improve.

Not having a phone in my pocket ever again is a great feeling. Just the default apps on it. Wish I could stream podcasts. I still keep the dumbphone around the house in case I need to take an SMS (Apple Watch apparently doesn't handle those either, just Apple Messages).

<comment><USER50> You are doing [more or less] exactly what I am planning to do when the next Apple Watch is released. I just have a S1 right now so it is tethered, but in a couple months I am planning to get an LTE model and then ditch the smartphone as often as I can. I don't make too many voice calls these days so I see only upsides.

My S1 definitely does text messages, not just iMessages, but like I said, it is tethered. If the LTE model cannot do standalone texts, that is a bit unfortunate -- I do get normal text messages periodically and I would hate to give those up entirely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> You need not buy a new phone. Some of the Samsung phones of the 2005-2006 era were my favorite, in terms of speed and menu design. They can be found on Ebay for <$10

<comment><USER13> I agree. And, if you have a phone that is too "smart", you can always root it to edit what is easily available to you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I've been using this one for about 5 years [https://www.amazon.com/LG- Xpression-2-Blue-AT/dp/B00J1SMJ06](https://www.amazon.com/LG-Xpression-2-Blue- AT/dp/B00J1SMJ06).

The charge still lasts 3-4 days with a moderate amount of texting and it's built like a tank.

My only complaint is only allows you to save a couple hundred texts and then you need to clear it out but it does have a micro SD card that you can keep in to drastically improve that.

I'm not sure why it's so expensive now. When I got it, it was $25.

I'm sure you could find something better nowadays. That one was released 6-7 years ago according to Google.

</comment><comment><USER54> I used an LTE-capable Kyocera DuraXE for several trips to the US. It was solidly built and worked as advertised.

I ended up getting rid of it because going back to T9 for texting was just too painful, and I'd rather have access to WhatsApp/Signal for messaging. It seems any LTE-capable feature phones are also using some custom version of Android without the ability to install apps, or generally get any updates, which makes me generally skeptical of their security.

Have switched to using a burner iPhone SE for travel.

</comment><comment><USER55> Dumbphone is a pretty broad term, so you have to think of your requirements first. Does the phone need a color screen? Cellular internet/wifi? Multimedia? MMS? Basic apps?

While there aren't necessarily a lot of new "dumbphones" being advertised, this doesn't mean they don't exist in the market. You can pick a ton of such basic phones released over the last 10 years on Amazon/eBay for as little as $10-$25 which will do all of this and more (or less, if you like).

</comment><comment><USER56> I bought a Cat B100 a few years ago. It's my second phone; the iPhone is still my primary, but there are times that it's better to have a dumbphone.

It's sold by Caterpillar, but actually built by Bullit Mobile, who specialize in rugged phones.

The B100 is completely waterproof, and very rugged. It's perfect when I'm going camping for the weekend, because it's safe in the elements, I can go days without charging the battery, and it's not distracting me from the world around me. It's still got Google Maps and can do SMS / MMS, so it's practical. The FM radio is surprisingly useful, too—something I'd forgotten about since it's not as common on phones anymore.

Sadly, it's been discontinued, but it's still pretty easy to find them for sale. I really love mine, I plan to keep using it as long as the cell networks still work with it.

[https://www.t3.com/reviews/cat-b100-review](https://www.t3.com/reviews/cat-b100-review)

<comment><USER57> How does it compare to B30? I'm currently looking for a 3G/4G dumbphones.

<comment><USER56> I haven't seen a B30 in person, but it looks pretty comparable. Seems like it's a slightly thinner & lighter update to the B100 (though "thin and light" is relative, it's a rugged candybar).

It would probably be as good. I prefer the look of the B100, but I bet the B30 is nice, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> [https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-3310](https://www.nokia.com/en_int/phones/nokia-3310)

[https://www.cnet.com/products/nokia-3310/review/](https://www.cnet.com/products/nokia-3310/review/)

I got one of these for my Dad, and he loves it. He likes to garden and putter around in the work shop, and he hated that he always had to worry about keeping his hands clean in order to use the iPhone.

Now... if only there was a way to disable all texting, he'd be in bliss. A simple message to people, "I don't text, call me." Would be great for any phone, really. Some people hate texting.

</comment><comment><USER59> I just came here to say 'Bring back the Razr'

<comment><USER60> As much as I love smartphones, the razr was such a great phone. I miss smaller phones in my pocket. I still have my Razr. Do they still make those size SIM cards anymore?

<comment><USER61> The still do, at least in Indonesia. You can get prepaid SIM card that is pre- cut from Mini to nano, you just pop out the size you want...

You can also buy an adapter to convert the smaller SIM to the larger ones...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> I buy whatever smart phone walmart has for $35, prepaid. then I do not register it. I download skype and pay $2-3 a month for unlimited incoming and outgoing, and only use wifi. if I am traveling I turn on the prepaid, I think verizon was the last one. I think it was $10-25 per day or for something like 300 minutes

last year when we had a snow storm, the power went out. my UPC system ran my internet for about 4 hours I was able to turn on LTE data for the prepaid phone and I bought something like 5-10gb of data and watched movies, had internet, and lights off of my deep cycle batteries and solar until they were able to fix the power pole a week later

</comment><comment><USER63> I use the Sonim XP5 with Verizon(also available for AT&T). It can be used as a wifi hotspot, has a music player, removable battery, expandable storage, bluetooth (connects to my truck just fine for calls, music and listening to messages. can respond to messages with canned responses). uses a stripped-down version of Android for its OS.

[https://www.androidheadlines.com/2017/07/sonim- xp5-verizons-...](https://www.androidheadlines.com/2017/07/sonim- xp5-verizons-4g-lte-equipped-rugged-basic-phone.html)

</comment><comment><USER64> Nokia 3310 (in name and shape only) 3G? [https://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_3310_3g-8876.php](https://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_3310_3g-8876.php)

</comment><comment><USER65> Not exactly a dumbphone, but Unihertz makes extremely small phones [https://www.unihertz.com/](https://www.unihertz.com/)

<comment><USER66> This is cool. Thanks for sharing this!

I miss the days when phones were small enough to comfortably fit in one's pockets. I always favored flip phones over candy bar phones not due any particular function, simply because of their compactness. Ah, the past!

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> As an offshoot I'm looking for a second phone to use in emergencies if my primary phone is dead or lost. Is there a super cheap emergency only plan?

</comment><comment><USER68> I don't want a dumb phone. I want a smartphone that allows me to toggle it into dumb phone mode with only phone, gps and messaging available. That way I can have best of both worlds.

I don't think either major OS maker will do that. Those silly tools they're coming up with for tracking your time are ridiculous and it's just to appease the smartphone addiction bad press.

<comment><USER69> If you have a samsung, you can do this by putting your phone in battery saver mode

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Do NOT get the Nokia 3210 (2017) or any other phone running the S30+ OS:

\- High input latency. Makes texting quite painful. I'm usually one or two button presses ahead of the display.

\- Very limited storage capacity for texts. It seems to be some fixed limit and it won't use free space useable by e.g. the camera.

\- Terrible call quality.

I'm still using it because the phone has charm, but that's the only redeeming quality in my opinion.

<comment><USER71> I have the Nokia 216 (which you can - or could six months ago - buy in the UK in Tesco for about £25) and it also suffers from the same limited text storage capacity: I think it's probably the most annoying thing about it, since it's clearly so unnecessary (unless it tries to store the messages on the SIM and that only has limited space? Not sure...). Otherwise I would moderately earnestly recommend this phone - it does everything you would want of a mobile phone in the late '90s, plus the BBC News web site works quite well in the browser!

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Have you checked out light phones? There's a light phone 2 in the works now:

[https://www.thelightphone.com/](https://www.thelightphone.com/)

[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light- phone-2-design#/](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/light-phone-2-design#/)

</comment><comment><USER73> Is anybody aware of a dumbphone that has text entry by voice? I had to go to a featurephone a few years ago for a short time and found that going back to T9 style text entry was just too painful to make it a viable option for me.

</comment><comment><USER74> HMD/Nokia recently launched the 3310. I was under the impression it would be available in the us too. (though I live in sweden so I didn't verify this)

Nokia is like the Apple of dumbphones, and the 3310 is the original iPhone!

</comment><comment><USER75> It's funny that the solution to people's fears about commercialism interfering with the real world is to go out and buy another phone rather than use some self control over the stuff they already own.

<comment><USER76> > the solution to people's fears about commercialism interfering with the real > world

That's just a completely arbitrary rephrasing to fit your supposed punch line, but describes nobody and nothing real.

> rather than use some self control

Oh. This one, _again_.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17624459](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17624459)

<comment><USER57> I agree. Every time this subject came up, there were many comments about self- control, many of them also mentioned they are from the older generation. Like they don't have vices.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> Nokia 8110. I picked one up while traveling in Malaysia for about $70 US

<comment><USER78> Do you know if this phone works in the US? I have gotten Nokia phones that weren't explicitly for use in the US before and there was definitely wonkiness in the compatibility with the US wireless carrier bands

<comment><USER32> I picked up the 8110 4G in Europe and it works fine on Canadian networks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> I've used PuretalkUSA in the past. $20 a month and you can get a flip phone for $25.

[https://www.puretalkusa.com/](https://www.puretalkusa.com/)

</comment><comment><USER80> What is the point? "Dumbphones" could be backdoored too, they are just slower. They still can run arbitrary software programs.

<comment><USER81> 1\. Smaller attack surface, and fewer, less efficient means of egress.

2\. The Joy of Missing Out™.

<comment><USER80> Only because there's less data to steal when you can do less with them. You could choose to not use any online services on a smartphone too.

<comment><USER81> 1\. Yeah. That doesn't make it any less true. If you go so far as to get one that has no Internet connection, an attacker would need have to be super committed (short of social engineering) to gain access, for very little benefit.

2\. Services that are intentionally designed to be addictive. That may be easy for you. It isn't for hundreds of millions of other human beings. A dumb-phone precludes the possibility of access, so you don't have to exercise any willpower.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> I just bought an unlocked LG B470.

It's old school, and it does the basics. I recommend.

</comment><comment><USER83> My kids like their used LG Rumor 2 LX265 phones.

</comment><comment><USER84> There is talkietalkie.el major mode for Emacs.

</comment><comment><USER85> last time i looked to change carriers most of the web sites had at least one flip phone model for sale.

</comment><comment><USER86> I want a qwerty phone with an eink display

<comment><USER87> Related question: why are qwerty keyboards on feature phones not really a thing anymore?</comment></comment>


The Billion-Dollar Battle over .Org - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/technology/dot-org-private-equity-battle.html <comment><USER2> These kinds of statements are infuriating:

> Ethos Capital has pledged to adhere to the 10 percent cap, though it would > have no contractual obligation to do so. In blog posts, the private equity > firm said it planned to invest in new services and clamp down on spam, > security attacks and other abuse launched from some illicit dot-org domains.

Like, is there any person in the universe who is naive enough to believe that the motives of a private equity company are totally pure and just about making the web better? It's a private equity company: OF COURSE they are buying it so that they can milk as much cash as possible out of the sale, with absolutely zero concern what's best for the "health of the internet" or whatever. That is their reason for existing. Pretending that this is anything other than a private entity trying to profit at the expense of the public is ludicrous.

<comment><USER3> Just look at what the defenders are saying on ICANN mailing lists. You can't assume ill intent from Ethos they say, they could do a better job than ISOC for all we know. It's a bullshit argument coming from registry lobbyists and ISOC members. And they throw out 10% annual price increases per year like it's normal. Since 2003, .ORG has had 7 price increases at 2.5, 10, 7, 3.5, 7, 10, 10 (percent). Which is an average of 7.5% per price increases, which have happened every 2.4 years. So an annual 10% price increase is well out of line with the norm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'd like more details about who is behind it and what their goals are. But it sounds better than Ethos at its core. The fact it's not being run for profit puts motives well above Ethos who pretend 10% per year price increases are reasonable and accepted. ORG hasn't raised prices in years and hasn't had a need to. It was one of the arguments for uncapping the price is that they were a responsible steward not taking advantage of their annual 10%, so why would it be abused? A PE company acquiring it is exactly why.

If Internet Society imploded and had contract taken away and their revenue stream of .ORG revoked it would be karma for selling out the community they were supposed to represent. I suspect if this were to happen the new COOP would be required to supplement ISOC budget at least for a while. But personally, I would love to see ISOC get nothing. It should be a harsh reminder that representing your community properly is important.

</comment><comment><USER4> Did I miss it or they don't at all mention the blatantly obvious arms length distance between this 2-person newly formed Ethos and ICANN?

<comment><USER3> Not mentioned.</comment></comment>


Is it worth taking a year off of college to work at a start up? - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/Is-it-worth-taking-a-year-off-of-college-to-work-at-a-startup?

<comment><USER2> I took a year of from Med School to work for a startup. In The Netherlands you can go to Med School (6 years) straight out of high school. After 3 years I had the idea it was all going to fast for me and I wasn't 100% sure what I wanted to do: startup life vs. Med career.

During that year off I learned a lot about running a startup and just as importantly about myself. When I went back to university I was 3 times as confident about my abilities and goals.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you are an autodidact, then yes.

I've been building a company for the past three years, and I have to say that it has been very educational. There are no grades per se, but whether or not you eat this month is... well, very motivating.</comment>


Dashbot: Add AI to Any Car for $49 by Next Thing Co - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/dashbot-a-49-robot-for-your-dashboard <comment><AUTHOR> This campaign has been going for a little while, but I just found out about it. It's from the company that brought us CHIP ([http://www.getchip.com/](http://www.getchip.com/)). And they say the software will be open source.</comment>


In South Korea, a rehab camp for Internet-addicted teenagers - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-south-korea-a-rehab-camp-for-internet-addicted-teenagers/2016/01/24/9c143ab4-b965-11e5-85cd-5ad59bc19432_story.html <comment><USER2> It is great that they are recognizing this for the issue it is. Because technology is an inevitable part of most of our lives going cold turkey won't work. How do they deal with that?

<comment><USER3> The South Korean approach is far from rational in these matters though, I'd imagine stuff like this causes significantly more harm to these kids than their supposed "addiction".

<comment><USER2> I doubt what they are doing is causing more harm than opportunity cost. The things they mentioned help in the short term. While internet addiction is still in contention there already are empirically tested treatments that can do a lot better than what they talked about in the article.

<comment><USER3> But the real goal isn't preventing internet addiction, this is just a part of the campaign to control internet in South Korea to shape political opinion.

Read up on KSCS and the internet censorship there.

<comment><USER4> Yea, South Korea's control of the internet seems almost dystopian at times.

[https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/08/south-korea-only- thing...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/08/south-korea-only-thing-worse- online-censorship) There are more articles on the eff about it.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Emails from a CEO who just has a few changes to the website - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@AmandaRosenberg/emails-from-a-ceo-who-just-has-a-few-changes-to-the-website-43ccb7b31709 <comment><USER2> The timestamps are gold.</comment>


Robot Pizza Trucks Hit Some Bumps - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-02-14/robot-pizza-trucks-hit-some-bumps <comment><USER2> This begs the question does the Vision Fund do any due diligence? Like actually ordering a couple of pizzas on different days to evaluate the end product? Or going to talk with customers?

I thought this was something all venture people did before making an investment but apparently it's just a Midwest thing.</comment>


New York State OKs insurer's tracking device that nabs teen driver-texters - <AUTHOR> http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2013/12/8537613/cuomo-oks-insurers-device-nabs-teen-driver-texters

<comment><USER2> Offered for free? Really? Should the insurance company be sharing some of the increased safety savings with their customers?

<comment><USER3> well you get lower premiums by being in less wrecks, in theory.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Does anyone else see the issue of how easy it would be to lean down, unplug this thing from the ODBC port, and toss it to the ground? That would kill any tracking or blocking.

<comment><USER5> That's answered in the FAQ:

> If the Esurance DriveSafe device is removed, you'll receive an alert.

[http://www.esurance.com/drive-safe/faq](http://www.esurance.com/drive- safe/faq)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> How is this possible without a jailbreak? Must be an Android app.

<comment><USER7> It's not an app. It's a piece of hardware; it's also supposed to track speeding and braking behavior.

If it actually prevents phones within the car from receiving calls, I don't see a lot of parents installing it...

<comment><USER8> It's a device and app:

[http://www.esurance.com/drive-safe](http://www.esurance.com/drive-safe)

That page doesn't say much, but it does say that various things can be blocked while still allowing phone calls (which can be restricted to certain numbers).

<comment><USER7> There's a great footnote to the app:

> *When the vehicle is in motion, teens with iPhones® will see a banner on > their home screen, reminding them not to use their phone while driving. > iPhones do not support restriction of phone functionality.

A later bit of fine print says:

> The information provided by Esurance DriveSafe is for customer use only and > will not influence your rate in any way. Personalized data generated by this > program is hosted by a third party and will never be shared with Esurance. > Esurance DriveSafe is available in all states where we do business except MA > and PA.

This immediately made me wonder about being compelled to turn over your data in court if you do get into a crash.

<comment><USER9> So, it appears to work with Androids (only). Not iPhones, and not dumb-phones?

Seems pretty useless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> How do they tell whether the teen is driving or a passenger?</comment>