Opera launches as a snap for Linux users - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.opera.com/desktop/2018/08/opera-launches-snap-linux-users/ <comment><USER2> I tried using Ubuntu 18.04 recently. While snap seem like a good idea, the main issue I have is that there seems to be no way to know who publishes snaps. A list of approved vendors would be useful.

Sure, there are some 'Verified Accounts', and Opera has one. But the main app for Slack, Spotify, Telegram Desktop or BitWarden come from unverified accounts. And some of these are not sandboxed, like the Slack app. Having BitWarden, a password manager, use an unverified account seems totally crazy.

<comment><USER3> I like snaps but I ve stopped using them because they auto update Windows10 style. In the snap forums a lot of people asked for the ability to disable updates in order to update only when you want. Integration with the software and updates app in Ubuntu would go a long way here. But no snap devs have refused that (unless you are an enterprise customer and use a proprietary extension). So if you have snaps their update process is totally separate from other apps in your Ubuntu desktop and outside of your control barring some time settings for soft auto update exceptions hidden in the CLI interface.

<comment><USER4> The developers don't want to maintain old clients...backward compatibility proved too expensive. Apple proved autoupdate is the way. Browser vendors did the same.

<comment><USER5> I don't think people expect old clients to be maintained, but I generally don't like auto-updating. I don't want my computer to use CPU, disk I/O, or network bandwidth for updates except when it's convenient for me. Also, in some cases it can be worth it to stick with an older version if a newer version introduces a bug or something.

<comment><USER6> Me too. I'm going to avoid snaps now that I know this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't understand using a browser that is developed by a for-profit company which happens to be their only product. Because of current owners, I would never use Opera.

Firefox is pretty good guys. You should check it out. And also donate.

disclaimer: no association with Mozilla/Firefox in any way.

<comment><USER8> Chrome is the other outlier here. Apple and Microsoft have no real reason to spy on you when you use Safari or Edge and Firefox is operated by a not-for- profit entity. Google and Opera's entire business model depend on surveilling their users.

<comment><USER9> Vivaldi claims that it is entirely employee-owned.

* [https://vivaldi.com/company/](https://vivaldi.com/company/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Snaps and flatpaks are just a vector for malware. They're worse in every way than a traditional package manager. I'm all for packages which containerize their software (we already chroot a lot of software like this), but snaps/flatpaks are just dumb. There's no substitute for your package maintainer personally auditing and preparing the package for you.

<comment><USER11> I passionately disagree. Package managers are inflexible conflict causing garbage and repos are appstore-like walled gardens which often contain out of date software, when they have what you're looking for at all.

Snap and Flatpak aren't much better, though. Give me AppImage any day.

<comment><USER5> The repository system on Debian, Arch, Fedora is clearly not a walled garden like Apple or Microsoft's app stores. Any site can host a repository that you can add to your package manager's sources, and you're free to install .deb/.rpm packages from any source you want, not to mention tarballs or compiling from source code. Also, there's no motive for lock-in like mainstream app stores have.

<comment><USER11> Only if those sources keep things up to date with the changes in the main repository, _and every other repository the user uses_ , so as to avoid conflicts.

> not to mention tarballs or compiling from source code

Seriously? You may as well say iOS is open because you can root it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> As a technology, I've had far better experience with snap over flatpak. It does bother me though with snaps that it all seems tied to a proprietary store. Does anyone know if it's possible to run the server side components yourself.

<comment><USER13> you can download a snap not unlike a deb and install it, if thats what you are after

<comment><USER14> I think they meant more about running your own snap repo that people could point snap to and get things. Say like an internal company snap repo.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Opera was great years ago. Now it's just another chrome clone.

<comment> Al-Khwarizmi Unfortunately true. Although, with the built-in mouse gestures and ad blocking without having to maintain extensions that bog things down, ask for their own updates, etc.; I still find it to be the least bad browser available. Vivaldi is too slow and Otter Browser is not quite there yet.

But I still miss Opera 12...

<comment><USER16> I wish they would've considered going open source instead. Sure, their rendering engine was far from perfect, but it had its advantages, even to Chrome at the time.

<comment><USER17> [https://git.teknik.io/Zero3K/presto](https://git.teknik.io/Zero3K/presto) here is the source code.

<comment><USER16> That's cool, but also extremely sketchy :) And if it's really just Presto, probably not horribly useful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I really like Opera as a browser. But I am still wary of its owners.

48.0%: Beijing Kunlun Tech Co., Ltd. (Zhou Yahui)

27.5%: Qifei International Development Co. Limited (Qihoo 360)

19.5%: Keeneyes Future Holdings Inc (Zhou Yahui)

5.0%: Golden Brick Capital Private Equity Fund I L.P.

I don't know anything about these firms and whether I can trust them.

Something about this ownership structure just makes me uneasy about the product.

<comment><USER19> As with all things Chinese, the story is never entirely clear. Propaganda from both sides of the Firewall obscure a lot. However...

\---

Qihoo 360 may be the owners of StartCom, and WoSign, who behaved so badly both Chrome and Firefox have decided their certificates can never be trusted again.

Got to figure that it isn't an accident that they bought a (large) interest in Opera.

And there's the confusing story of the Chinese government sanctioning Qihoo 360 themselves over privacy violations to do with webcams.

They tend to be a company mired in controversy.

(They also have the controlling share in Golden Brick Capital).

\---

Beijing Kunlun Tech aren't that well known in the West. They started out as online gambling, however they also bought out Grindr, and now a controlling stake in Opera.

They don't seem to have a huge amount of direction, besides blasting adverts and trying to eak out a profit wherever they can. Which they seem extremely successful in.

Successful enough that Zhou Yahui ended up paying $1.1billion to settle a divorce with his wife quite recently.

\---

So, basically, ownership is split between a gambling tycoon, and a company with an awful reputation around security and privacy who have a vested interest in a browser, and how they can influence the web from it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Opera, if you are watchng this thread, could you please update the outdated documentation on the command line option? [1] This command line format was valid until 5 years ago, when Opera switched to Chromium. Currently Opera only works with Chromium's command line format and the documentation does not mention about this. I noticed this problem when I was answering a SO question [2] so I contacted Opera but there is no response.

[1]: [https://www.opera.com/docs/switches/](https://www.opera.com/docs/switches/)

[2]: [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/51123537/webbrowser- open...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/51123537/webbrowser-open-breaks- the-link-python-3-7/51128165#51128165)

</comment><comment><USER21> I really wished snaps worked well on most distros but as of now I always run into a bunch of bugs when installing stuff from it.

<comment><USER22> Agreed, there are way too many apps that were developed without the sandbox in mind and just don't work as a snap...

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Can anyone who has released commercial Linux software comment on providing giant static binaries to distribute apps? I always found this the easiest way to adopt a 3rd party app on Linux, but I don't know how difficult it is in practice if the app is humongous and complicated.

</comment><comment><USER24> About time. I could never find a reliable way to get Opera running on Linux (Ubuntu).

<comment><USER25> [http://www.opera.com/computer/linux](http://www.opera.com/computer/linux)

<comment><USER26> I saw the parent got downvoted but it's correct. The .deb configures the ppa to get the updates.

Check [http://deb.opera.com/](http://deb.opera.com/)

It installs mine from [http://deb.opera.com/opera-stable/dists/stable/non- free/bina...](http://deb.opera.com/opera-stable/dists/stable/non-free/binary- amd64/)

It always worked well, both the updates and Opera (Ubuntu 16.04)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Can somebody explain who's the target audience for Flatpak/Snap?

Doesn't each distro provide packages for software?

<comment><USER28> The problem with package managers/installers/setup scripts/etc. is that they turn file systems in a mess and that filesystems tend to be different between linux installations, even of the same distribution.

So snaps do for user facing software what docker did for server side software. Good idea in general and since most distributions struggle to stay on top of release quality updates from upstream, a great way to stay up to date, quickly try out some sofware package, or download software that your linux distribution hasn't gotten around to absorbing into their repositories.

Sort of the Linux equivalent of dragging an OS X .app file to your /Applications folder (or to trash for uninstall). There's no good technical reason for application install/uninstall to be more complex than that.

Normal user facing software should not require modifications to the OS to run. The linux practice of packages basically taking a royal dump on the filesystem and generally requiring root access to even get installed is no longer something that is remotely sane to do.

IMHO, operating systems should ultimately be immutable and basically be similar to a snap. You update it as a whole and you don't modify parts of it.

Linux has had a hard time with end users despite decades of "surely this year is the year of linux on the desktop". Never happened. A lot of that has to do with software installation, package managers and upgrades being a convoluted mess that always ends up in somebody doing stuff in a command line terminal to fix.

<comment><USER29> >Linux has had a hard time with end users despite decades of "surely this year is the year of linux on the desktop". Never happened. A lot of that has to do with software installation, package managers and upgrades being a convoluted mess that always ends up in somebody doing stuff in a command line terminal to fix.

Snap still has a little bit to go to be much better though! The "programs shouldn't mess with the system" mentality includes restrictions to the filesystem. That's a problem because many programs do need to mess with local files (e.g., sending a file in an IM program, working on a file, saving a file...). You get a spooky message about installing such programs with "classic" permissions, and, even then, such functionality suffers. Discord can only access some subset of the filesystem, and Skype straight up crashes when it tries. Also, opening links in Discord doesn't work in the Snap version while it does in the non-Snap version. Rabble!

But the idea is great. Convenience and no dynamic library breakage for some MB of disk space in ${current_year}? Yes, plz!

<comment><USER30> Yet their web based counterparts work just fine. Discord works great, Skype not so great, maybe because they pour resources into the app thay displays ads.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Weird. Many (most?) of the commenters in this thread have accounts created in 2017-2018:

AnIdiotOnTheNet, binomialxenon, Boulth, crtasm, Iolaum, jillesvangurp, kyrofa, logix, maccio92, maxyme, newnewpdro, octosphere, pleasecalllater, sincerely, sitzkrieg, shrimp_emoji, taway234252, xmmrm

<comment><USER32> Yep. Thank HN for not supporting account renames. My old account has higher karma, too.

<comment><USER33> My account literally has my old legal name, and can't be changed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Get ready for all the Linux malware!</comment>


Japanese Suicide Apartments - <AUTHOR> http://www.tofugu.com/2012/11/12/japanese-suicide-apartments/ <comment><USER2> This is a dodgy article.

I've lived in Japan for almost a decade and heard about these "cheap suicide apartments" exclusively from foreigners or Japanese people who "learned" about it from foreigners; whenever I looked around for Japanese sites for this kind of thing, the "discounted rent" would be the same or around $5 to $40 cheaper per month, well within the normal variation for apartments in the same building (due to facilities, size, shape, location, time since renovation, etc.).

Additionally, the "cited" articles talk about the extortionate practices of individual landlords who seem to be taking advantage of the families' grief to send them through the wringer for more money, rather than "cheap suicide apartments."

The real story here is the minority of shady landlords who indulge in those practices -- no doubt they would also be the ones who keep your deposit and additionally try to charge thousands of dollars for "cleaning" fees after you move out. This kind of scum exists in every country.

</comment><comment><USER3> I follow how there can be liability, but unless the families are co-signing how can they be liable?

Can families that fight back recoup legal costs potentially getting a judgement against some or all of the landlord's property?

The post raises more questions than answers. Seems like a "proper" legal system should deal with this soon enough without any extra legislation. Granted it's Japan.

<comment><USER4> _I follow how there can be liability, but unless the families are co-signing how can they be liable?_

It is highly likely that the parents were "guarantors" (保証人) for their children, which is standard practice here. This is similar to the US concept of co-signing. Also, socially speaking, "my adult child caused trouble for you implies I have a responsibility to you" is something that more than 90% of Japanese people would strongly agree to.

<comment><USER5> Curious, can you specifically search for suicide apartments? If I could save 30-40% with the high cost of living in Japan that is where I would want to live.

<comment><USER6> There is a related post at the bottom of the linked article about exactly that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Can anyone elaborate if these are the hot tip for people that don't care about this stuff (expats?) to get a cheap place, or not so much in reality? Seems like an obvious thing, so I bet it isn't ;)

<comment><USER8> Maybe even become ordained so you can exchange free rent for a cleansing.

<comment><USER9> Is it even possible for an expat to become a Shinto priest?

<comment><USER10> Yes. A 27 year old Austrian man became a Shinto priest in Japan.

Source: [http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/06/10/our- lives/b...](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/06/10/our-lives/blue- eyed-austrian-finds-calling-shrine/#.VmyuNr_Xu88)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It feels like the loses from a suicide apartment should be covered by insurance, rather than estates or families of the deceased. I'm not saying this insurance does or doesn't exist (I don't know); but this is the "ideal" case for it.

This way, families can grieve in peace and the landlords can't bully their way to get "repairs" done.

<comment><USER12> Then you need to have insurance, of course. A life insurance could be used to pay off such costs, which I'm sure happens in many cases. It's the uninsured cases that make the news.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> >So tell me, would you live in one of these suicide apartments?

I would probably seek them out, as they seem to be much cheaper.

<comment><USER14> This question paraphrased in the context of the article is basically asking whether or not you believe in ghosts.

Not only would you have to believe in ghosts, but some of these apartments are in cities that were firebombed by the US in living memory, you'd have to believe in ghosts that couldn't move around and were local to specific apartments to care about this more than "were there firebombings in this area?" or "was this house constructed before WWII?".

<comment><USER4> It's more a purity thing than "do you believe in ghosts." Many cultures, including yours, have beliefs with regards to purity which are not wholly explained by physics. For example, animal fat can be used to make soap. Humans are animals. You would probably feel very unhappy if someone informed you that, unbeknownst to you, your soap had been replaced with soap made out of people. It is not a property of chemistry that your soap remembers being a human, any more than your drinking water remembers being urine last week, but you're very concerned about ex-human soap and not at all concerned about ex- urine drinking water.

<comment><USER15> It's not amazing people believe in ghosts so much that they believe gravity somehow affects ghosts which blows my mind.

Because the earth is no longer remotely close to where the person died, not around the sun, not in the solar system, and given the universe is constantly expanding, millions of miles from where they died.

So somehow ghosts are both non-corporeal yet affected by gravity.

<comment><USER16> Every incorporeal thing we know of (photons, neutrinos) is affected by gravity. If you have chosen to believe in incorporeal ghosts, it's not at all strange to assume they would be affected by gravity. It's kind of weird to assume that they _wouldn 't,_ actually.

<comment><USER15> Okay let's put it this way, photons are barely affected by gravity because of their near zero mass.

So you think ghosts have mass? Or rather near zero mass?

Because it takes massive amounts of gravity to affect photons, you won't see the gravity of earth keeping photons in place like say a person.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I partially wish that the US had the same stigma so I could exploit it. I'd happily live in an apartment where someone committed suicide, since there's absolutely no logical basis for fearing it.

<comment><USER18> On the other hand, an apartment where someone killed someone else, or suffered a psychotic break and had to be institutionalized permanently, or died of mysterious causes? Higher-than-average likelihood of mold, lead, mercury, carbon monoxide, etc.

<comment><USER17> I'd probably do an extra review of environmental factors to be safe (as I would with any below-market apartment), but it's unlikely that even the majority of deaths are driven by persistent factors.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The older the place you live in, the more likely someone died there.

And given how old civilization is, I bet someone probably died within 1000 feet of where you live right now.

Certainly hundreds of animals have died around you for sure, many within your lifetime.

In fact you probably ate a dead creature today.

WTF is with people and "ghosts" ?

<comment><USER19> I would say that someone died within 1000 feet from where you live, while you actually lived there. This is probably true, unless you live in a remote house.

And they all forget to count ghosts from microorganisms and insects.

<comment><USER6> It may be that, in Shinto Buddhism (the predominant religion in Japan,) the "ghosts" of microorganisms, insects, etc. don't exist, or aren't worth worrying about, because they're part of the natural order.

Also bear in mind that, if one believes in reincarnation and animism, "ghosts" on earth may be considered a special case, when the expectation is that most spirits rejoin the karmic cycle (or whatever.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I find this curious, since nobody seems to have a problem with hospitals where lots of people die. If people haunt the place where they die, wouldn't a hospital be crammed with them? Why don't ghost hunters look in hospitals?

<comment><USER21> I think it's because, unless the hospital gets deserted/abandoned, it's generally always filled with plenty of _living_ people. A house, on the other hand, would more-easily appear ominous because it's not as public.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> > "In one case, a young woman killed herself in her apartment and the landlord > showed up during her funeral to demand ¥6 million (~$75,500) so that he > could hire a priest to "cleanse" the property."

Any Japanese people here to comment on this specific point that there are "exorcists" who dedicate their time and effort for this economic activity and that's well established phenomenon there?

</comment><comment><USER23> This isn't the only article i read on this topic. It's shocking to me how inconsiderate the Japanese are of suicide and grieving. Just goes to tell you what happens to a society when a troubling issue is ignored - it becomes mundane part of daily life and the majority ceases to care.

<comment><USER9> > It's shocking to me how inconsiderate the Japanese are of suicide and > grieving.

Eh, I think it's a different perspective. Simplifying things greatly, Japanese society is a collective one, and one could argue that suicide is a selfish decision that damages the collective by removing any possible utility you may be giving it for the sake of yourself. As even small transgressions of this nature are frowned upon in Japanese culture, it's not surprising to me that the bigger transgressions have these reactions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> >how much of a discount would you need to continue living there?

$0.

But that was an interesting read.</comment>


Show HN: We just released + open sourced our internal time tracking app Hours - <AUTHOR> https://happyhours.io

<comment><USER2> Ok so i'm trying your hosted version of the app. New user. I get taken to the New Entry page...

I haven't got a project, i can't create a project on the new entry page so i have to go round the houses to add a project.

I haven't got any categories... where do i add categories as i can't do it from the New Entry page... oh it's under my name... so round the houses to do that...

once i have done that, adding an entry on todays date (the 8th) then shows a popup that says "Jared worked for 5 hours on blah yesterday"

hmmm

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally agree that the onboarding experience sucks, we need to improve that

Tracking this here: [https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/issues/132](https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/issues/132)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This seems like it would be good use of the new heroku button: [https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2014/8/7/heroku- button](https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2014/8/7/heroku-button)

I'm sure some people would like a one-click deploy of this app to their heroku account.

</comment><comment><USER4> My company also open sourced our time tracking application (it can do more, like vacation requests and invoices). Right now only the backend API is open source, you can find it here [1] and documentation here [2]. It is a REST API secured via OAuth.

In the next few weeks we also want to open source our main client application, an AngularJS app.

It is probably a little too much tailored to our needs to be used somewhere else.

[1] [https://github.com/techdev-solutions/trackr- backend](https://github.com/techdev-solutions/trackr-backend) [2] [http://techdev-solutions.github.io/trackr-api-documentation/](http://techdev- solutions.github.io/trackr-api-documentation/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh that's also pretty cool! Props for open sourcing it

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> First impression: feels undifferentiated. It doesn't seem to be particularly quick on the data entry, or particularly powerful on the analysis and reporting side. Perhaps there's something great about it, but if so at least I didn't get the message.

<comment><USER6> I don't understand why do people keep tracking time through web apps.

I built Zone ( [http://rinik.net/zone/](http://rinik.net/zone/) ) because I couldn't find any product where you could track time really quickly.

<comment><USER7> I love Zone, I just wish that it could track what applications I'm using and for how long.

Thanks for your work!

<comment><USER6> Thhanks. Have you tried RescueTime?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> the-dude Haha, this is funny.

I interned 1 week at this company in 1991 as a 'snuffel-stage' while in high- school ( Kraneweg at the time ).

Congrats on the App!

<comment><AUTHOR> That's awesome! :D

<comment> the-dude It was awesome, they really went out of their way and teamed me up with someone every other day:

Monday: Desktop publishing with Ventura and LASER printers. Yes: laserprinters. Tuesday: Hit the road to install network at a client site with Coaxial cables. Wednesday & Thursday: Let me sit in with the dev guys: TurboPascal. Friday: Assembling PCs.

Still wondering if they pulled a trick on me with the mystery customer showing up.

Fond memories & have been in IT all my life.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's exactly how I imagine that era, feel free to drop by for a coffee if you're ever around (we're @ zuiderpark now)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The github project is over at [https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours](https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours)

<comment><USER8> Would be helpful to have license information in the readme. What license is it under?

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right, totally missed that! Let me double check at work in a few minutes but I'll probably add an MIT license with a disclaimer to please don't be a jerk and offer a paid hosted version yourself

<comment><USER9> So you'll give us the permission to go commercial with your code and call us jerk if we actually go commercial?

<comment><USER10> He grants the rights to go commercial with their code, but reserves the right to call us names for doing so. Still sounds like a good deal to me.

<comment><USER11> Name-calling rights are far too often forgotten in modern day contracts, I'm afraid...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I too am developing an automatic time tracking application (for the Linux desktop, but I think it might be made to work cross-platform): the idea is that, you just install it, you might then optionally choose apps or files to identify your project activities, and it will auto-detect time spent within those apps; it will come with a pre-populated database of known apps so that it can handle most common activities automatically.

It works by monitoring current processes, and checking the title of the currently focused window, applying a number of regexes to identify an activity, and saving results to a database. It should be able to handle screen savers, visited URLs, and automatically take snapshots of unidentified windows so that you can later map them to a known activity.

I envisioned this tool for personal use; however, it could be deployed to monitor employees in a centralized manner, though this might even be illegal in many countries.

<comment><AUTHOR> I can imagine that could be nice especially for freelancers or just to track your own productivity!

Our use case was more that we have a lot of different projects and we didn't really have any insight on how we were spending time within those projects. For example we wanted to know if spending more time on prototyping would cut down on development time or why one project took a lot longer than another.

<comment><USER13> For programmers this is a time tracker built into your text editor [https://wakatime.com](https://wakatime.com)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think this would have a lot more value if integrated with ticket tracking systems which already contain a little of interesting information - type of tickets, type of work, component etc..

<comment><USER15> The problem with integrating time tracking with other business systems is that outside of software development the tools utterly suck for integrations. Integrating with calendaring apps or task management or CRM is either really hard because there isn't a public API or the tools are very basic because the API has to easy to use, or the system is expensive to develop for being the API is complex. Plus the API ends up dictating how you organise the data rather than the business choosing how to use the tool - eg 'every job must be part of a project that's owned by a client' .. that sort of limitation quickly makes the tool inflexible and hard to use.

If you look at integrating with software development tools like ticketing or bug tracking you have to remember that in the majority of companies, even if you only look at software companies, most people aren't developers once you get to more than about 10 staff. You have sales and admin and managers. What that means is that you either end up with a time tracking tool that does very little outside of tracking time or a time tracking tool with a raft of features that don't apply to most of the people using it. Both of which are bad for some of the users.

All of this is compounded by the fact that most people don't want their time to be tracked. Even if you love your job, having someone reviewing how you spent your time feels like you're being micromanaged and watched over. That just isn't a good feeling.

Time tracking is a _surprisingly_ hard problem to solve once you get past just a log of 'On A/B/C worker X worked on Y for Z hours'.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> BUG report in trial: when i click on edit profile or categories i get signed out (latest Chrome on Linux). Probably the click is registered as a sign out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Looking into it, haven't seen that before! Thanks for letting me know!

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> It's really nice that one can host it on their own server, what are the minimum requirements? For example, 1 GB ram? Gitlab, another rails app, for example is a bit better with more. Are there any features that Hours offers that Harvest doesn't?

<comment><AUTHOR> We're hosting this on Heroku, I think you should be fine on their free instance which has 512mb I think? :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Haha, i noticed "Intern Overleg" on one of your screenshots. It's probably a strange word for non-dutch speakers ;)

It looks okay though, but i haven't tested it just yet.

Hello from Belgium ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha yes you're right! It's a screenshot of our actual instance of Hours, maybe we should update it ^^

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Also noticed the two different icons being used (compare the 'clock' in the logo and the favicon), doesn't seem to a lot of thought is put into it. It's these little details that users like me - who are usually willing to pay for services like these - are put off because most probably these details are just the ones on the surface. I'll probably stick with [http://www.tickspot.com](http://www.tickspot.com)

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh that also looks great! :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> "Time registration that doesn't suck" \- is an oxymoron.

</comment><comment><USER18> No privacy policy at all? That's an absolute 'NO'.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right, tracking this here [https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/issues/135](https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/issues/135)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm sorry, but your app lacks a lot of required functionality. Even for a lightweight time tracking app.

The statistics are very pretty but not very useful. The lacking of printable, full reports on project bases, is a dealbreaker for me. Also add a text field to the time entries, tags are often not sufficient. Also no date filtering? Only full hours, no half hours? The sidebar says I logged time for yesterday, if it was actually today. The edit userprofile link doesn't work.

Haven't you tested your app at all?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback, yes we've been using it for about six months now and it's been working for us. Feel free to submit a pull request with anything you think is missing :)

The sign out on edit is a new bug, we're tracking it here: [https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/pull/131](https://github.com/DefactoSoftware/Hours/pull/131)

<comment><USER20> I'm not going to help you build missing features, so you can profit of other people's work by hosting the paid app.

What you have at the current state is not an MVP, it's a buggy prototype. Why should I use a time tracking app when I can't export my hours to write an invoice?

<comment><USER21> The code is MIT licensed, so your contributions would be too. Sure they can make money off it, but so can anybody else who feels like forking (or even just pulling) the code.

If you find it a good base to work on, submit pull requests. If it's not for you, just move along.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Card – An interactive CSS3 credit card form - <AUTHOR> http://jessepollak.github.io/card/ <comment><USER3> Looks great. Few notes:

1) On the already crowded payment form, I don't want to devote a hell of a lot of space to something that is otherwise inconsequential (a picture of a credit card)

2) Is it a great idea to broadcast someone's card numbers so clearly? The graphic is so obviously a credit card, it would be easy for any onlooker to spot and steal.

Really, this seems like aesthetics for aesthetics' sake, which I traditionally shy from, but I always like seeing people take a swing at something.

<comment><USER4> > 2) Is it a great idea to broadcast someone's card numbers so clearly? The > graphic is so obviously a credit card, it would be easy for any onlooker to > spot and steal.

yes - anything that signposts card data clearly to an onlooker is problematic, but any malicious shoulder surfer will probably be able to spot a payment page a mile off in any case. This might however, have a small possibility of encouraging opportunistic theft.

I think the bigger threat to this probably comes from the networks (MC, VISA, AMEX etc) who get VERY possessive about mock-ups / card image facsimiles that use their logos. The brand logo protection that they enforce is pretty strict and I would imagine this approach would not be welcomed. I'd like to be wrong, but my experience with the networks makes me pessimistic.

<comment><USER5> I'm less concerned with the reuse of their logos and more concerned with the fact that their logos are implemented in HTML/CSS rather than as images, which means there will be subtle differences.

Basically those aren't their logos. They're slightly inaccurate imitations. Most big brands will be upset if even a few pixels are off when their logo is displayed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Looks gorgeous. I can't help but wonder if people unfamiliar with technology and ecommerce would be deterred by such a form? It might give some users the impression that the website is "copying" the credit card. It would be interested to test the opinions of non-tech savvy users.

<comment><USER7> I don't know about people unfamiliar with technology, but as someone very familiar with technology, my first thought is that this could easily be a vector for copying the card information!

All you need is to load some encoded image off of a third server to leak card info via a side channel, if your code is underhanded.

I would trust "one line of code" if it's a solution from Google or something, but for something this small I don't see how going with a small third-party solution is secure.

\- OP: why not sell this solution to a larger payment processor as a complete solution, so they don't have to develop it themselves?

<comment><USER8> Well, of course untrusted code dealing with CC info is insecure. That's why this is open source, and you host it yourself. It's just a library. Whose source you can see. Whose source you can compile. With a third-party compiler.

You'd say you'd trust it if it was from Google - in this case, if you use it, it's coming from _you_ , on your server, under your control. I'd trust this far more than a Google-hosted closed-source library - not because I wouldn't trust a Google payment endpoint, but because this is totally under my control, and something from Google isn't.

Not sure what you're talking about with the encoded image. Doesn't make much sense.

There are no _real_ security problems with this whatsoever. The problem is, unsavvy users may think there is, due to the visual resemblance of the onscreen card.

<comment><USER9> Because it's open source, we can figure out exactly what's going on. OP brings up the point from the users' perspective and they might not trust an interface that looks this flashy.

<comment><USER7> That's a far cry from

      Make your credit card form better in one line of code

and

      With one line of code..
        $('form').card({ container: $('.card-wrapper') });
      You get..
      Animations for 4 different card types
      An intuitive experience for your users
      Pure CSS, HTML, and Javascript (no images)
      100% free and open source

Which certainly could be used by someone who doesn't understand all this.

All I am saying is that for us as developers it is not so simple either. . . we _also_ have to be vigilant.

<comment><USER8> If somebody who doesn't know what they're doing is writing a CC form, you've already lost. Making app development easier isn't "dangerous" because it allows less experienced people develop applications. You will always have people making mistakes and screwing up security, regardless of the actual ease of development. The more the developer has to do, the more they can screw up.

<comment><USER7> This is what my point is: as much as the customer has to slow down and say, "Wait a second, is this legit?" \- so do we.

That doesn't mean the customer won't conclude it is legit, or that we don't conclude the same thing.

Recall that I had responded to,

>Looks gorgeous. I can't help but wonder if people unfamiliar with technology and ecommerce would be deterred by such a form?

Certainly I _personally_ would be deterred (to an extent) from using this form without at least a cursory audit and verifying the identity of the person who wrote it.

This will naturally be less and less important the more eyeballs this sees. But as a simple tool, perhaps it is not that many.

Do remember that if I were wanting to get my hands on people's credit cards, getting developers to use this kind of script while having a well-hidden side channel (perhaps quite well-hidden - it could somehow encode cc details in the timing delays to a different server, potentially, so that it is not at all obvious that the delays even correspond with the data, it could just look like visualizations getting loaded as the person types) -- then this would be one of the more clever ways I could go about doing so.

I don't see how we're 'arguing' about this? We need to check what we are using, just like customers need to check that this is legit.

<comment><USER8> I don't really understand your point. The thing about timing channels is absurd - we have the code right in front of us. Right there. It either calls third-party servers or it doesn't, and we can see that. Very easily.

The idea that anyone would successfully steal CC info by putting up an open- source client-side jQuery plugin under his real name is just silly. It's not something that you ever have to worry about in the real world. Sure, I'll concede that if a number of absurdly unlikely things happened, something like this could steal CC info.

Besides, you're missing the point. We're _paid_ to vet this stuff. Customers aren't. Your choice of whether to use this or not harms no one - but customers being scared of an odd-looking CC form is harmful to business, and a valid and interesting point.

<comment><USER7> we're not disagreeing

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is neat, and I love the look and feel. The only problem is that it's completely unnecessary and possibly confusing for potential customers. But that's just my opinion. It would be interesting if someone would put this on their own payment page and share the conversion metrics.

There's a few annoyances that threw me off:

1) Like others mentioned in this thread, I first tried to enter credit card details directly on the card. I was initially blind to the text inputs underneath the card. If the card was initially hidden, then faded in to the left/right of the input form that might alleviate this confusion. The problem is the card is so beautiful and neat looking I immediately anchor to the card instead of the input form.

2) When entering an invalid date or credit card number there's no visual feedback. It's very common to be blind to your own input errors, which necessitates clear communication of error state.

3) Even more confusing, I can't tab to the CVC field when the date is invalid. But I can tab to the name field when the credit card number is invalid. This inconsistent behavior initially made me think the form was "broken".

</comment><comment><USER11> It's confusing because my first instinct was to type my credit card info on the card itself. It took me a few seconds to realize there was a form below it.

<comment> squeaky-clean Same here, but aside from that, I think this is very neat. Maybe if instead of the card being grayed out before you enter input, it could be entirely invisible. But then the empty space above the form would seem strange at first.

<comment><USER12> or just the empty recognizable outline of a card (the rectangle with the rounded corners) with no fields. then on first keystroke populate the fields, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Let me be the first to rain on your parade (sorry).

If you're _not_ the merchant of record using this form could very well violate your terms of service for whatever credit card company you have your merchant account with, and/or the IPSP terms of service.

Using this can result in terminating your merchant account or temporary suspension depending on how they take it.

The reason why is that the logo's are _only_ allowed to be used by the merchant of record, for many of the parties interested in that this will be their IPSP. So verify prior to doing this that you actually are allowed to use the card association logos. (And for that matter, that you're authorized to capture the card details!).

Please be careful, if you lose your merchant account it could be a while before you get it back, if ever.

<comment><USER14> Overreact much?

Most people that will be taking credit cards directly via a form like this will have merchant account and be authorized to use the credit card logos. If they are using a service like PayPal they are mostly redirecting to their service providers site for processing not taking the card info directly.

The usage of the network logos are not as strict as you are implying here, even if you use paypal you can use the Network logos. [https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/logo- center](https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/logo-center)

There are many approved banners and logos that make use of the card network logos.

I have never had a payment processing agreement where I was barred from using the Network Logos, nor would I sign up for such a service, in the off chance I am wrong please back up your claims with citations to actual laws or statements to support your claim

<comment><USER13> > Most people that will be taking credit cards directly via a form like this > will have merchant account and be authorized to use the credit card logos.

Using logos in combination with a credit card capture form comes with a different set of rules (and a different contract!) than just being allowed to use some third party processor that does all the work for you.

If you want to capture the cards yourself instead of outsourcing the job to an IPSP then you're going to have to be at a minimum PCI compliant. This goes for any company that _stores_ , _processes_ or _transmits_ credit card information. The tipping point is somewhere around a million $ US per year. Below that the cost of being in compliance outweighs the fees the IPSP charges for their service handily.

The word 'credit' in credit cards stands for 'trust'.

[https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=ori...](https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=origin+of+the+word+credit&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

People trust those companies and by extension trust those logos. That's why when you use them you will be held to the rules so strictly because credit card companies do not like it when their logos are used to give an aura of trust to an otherwise non-trustworthy situation. Just the PDF about what you can and can not do _visually_ with the logo runs to lots of pages.

Yes, there are plenty of ways in which using those logos is absolutely ok, and where using this form is (probably) just fine.

Everybody that is PCI DSS compliant can likely use it without any problem. Yes, there are also plenty of ways in which using this form is strictly against the terms of service, typically this includes everybody who is not PCI certified, which is almost every two bit merchant on the web that outsources their payment processing and credit card capture to some third party.

So, if you use a 3rd party solution that serves up the payment form and that handles the card capture and subsequent processing for you and you have a contract with them rather than with the card company you can use the logos and nobody will care, mostly because you can't do much harm (such as your paypal example).

But if you are in a situation where you have a merchant account but you are _not_ the merchant of record (this means you are a sub-merchant, such as when using any one of a number of IPSPs) then using this form is most likely not a good idea.

As for me backing up my claims, I'm not going to attach a copy of my merchant agreement to a comment on the web, you are totally free to disregard what I wrote. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for, and _everybody that has a merchant account but is not the merchant of record_ (aka a 'sub-merchant' in payment processing lingo) is totally free to inspect their own personal copy and for everybody else this does not matter at all.

Further reading on the subject:

[https://www.pcicomplianceguide.org/pci- faqs-2/](https://www.pcicomplianceguide.org/pci-faqs-2/)

A list with a sample of payment facilitators (if you use one of these you are quite possibly _not_ the merchant of record):

[http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/accept- mastercard/payment...](http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/accept- mastercard/payment-facilitator.html)

Note that this is not an exhaustive list by a long shot.

The mastercard FAQ which has a nice little blurb about who is and who is not a merchant or record:

[http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/assistance/faq.html](http://www.mastercard.us/merchants/assistance/faq.html)

Also of interest:

[http://www.mastercardbrandcenter.com/us/images/acceptance_ma...](http://www.mastercardbrandcenter.com/us/images/acceptance_marks_v06.pdf)

Less interesting (branding, not acceptance marks):

[https://www.mastercardbrandcenter.com/us/getourbrand/index.s...](https://www.mastercardbrandcenter.com/us/getourbrand/index.shtml?pageId=dl_1510&expertVisible=false)

Oh, and an afterthought: there is yet another important logo, the VBV one, you can only use this if you're actually part of the program.

<comment><USER14> I am fully aware of PCI, I used to develop billing systems, Utility Billing Systems to be exact a heavily regulated industry that has even more rules than normal ecommerce. Further anyone that collects credit card data must be PCI Compliant, period. There are 4 Levels of PCI Compliance and depending on what your doing with the Credit Card data and how many transactions you process determine where you fall, many small merchants are only Level 4

Edit:

I Just looked at your list of "Payment Facilitators". If you use one of those processors YOU DO NOT HAVE A MERCHANT ACCOUNT. I think that is where the communications break down is happening, a merchant account is a specific thing, Using 2 Checkout, or Stripe (which is the service this seems targeted at) does not mean you have a "merchant account". None of these services claim to give you a merchant account.

Further I can find thing to support your claim that using this form with Stripe or another "Payment Facilitators" would be in violation of any agreements. However when I replied I was not talking about people that use these "Payment Facilitators", a person with merchant account, a person that uses a full gateway like Authorize.net which a huge number of merchants do should not be at all concerned with using this form

None of the links you posted have supported your claim, nor can I find any supporting documentation to back your claims. You do not need to post your mythical very restrictive merchant agreement, you should just post the text about that your talking about. Or find me any company most of which have their standard agreements and terms online, that says anything about this. I have look at most of the major payment gateways, 3rd party processors, and various others people, plus I have contacted some people I know that still work in development of payment systems (I have been out of that game for about 5 years now) and none of them have any clue what your talking about.

<comment><USER13> Well, some people that I contacted verify my story and I worked on payment systems as recently as 6 months ago. But what statements like that do to bolster a position is not clear to me.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, some kind of anecdotal proof that I'm wrong?

You're completely missing the point of the sub-merchant situation, one where you have a contract with _both_ the card companies (one for VISA, one for MC etc) and a contract with an IPSP. This is the situation I'm talking about and it is one that is quite common for mid-sized merchants, just a bit too large for the various parties listed in those links and too small to be dealing with the overhead of becoming PCI compliant.

Whether you and your friends are aware of that or not is frankly immaterial, I happen to be in that precise situation so I think I know what I'm talking about, whether you believe me or not is your problem.

I'm under no obligation to post any text here whatsoever, this is an internet forum, not some kind of court proceedings and the claim I'm making is not so outrageous that it requires extraordinary proof to satisfy you.

<comment><USER14> No you are not under any obligation to post anything, however when posting something you claim to be a violation of law or policy is customary to support that claim with citations to where you have gained this knowledge. To date you have not posted any citation to support your claim in a verifiable manner. You have posted no terms, no laws, given no citations of any regulations or policies that are open to the public review, My own investigations have found nothing in any written documentation to support your claims. I believe you are wrong, and have asked you to provide a citation back your claims, which to date you have not.

If this was an official position of either Visa, MC, or an "IPSP" you would be able to post a link to their official terms that spell out that position, since you can not your comment should be ignored.

As to PCI Compliance, I will say again, ALL PERSONS TAKING CREDIT CARD MUST BE PCI COMPLAINT. Small, medium, large it does not matter, if you accept credit cards at all you much be PCI Compliant. Level 4 Compliance is a joke, and even the smallest of small business can become Level 4 Complaint...

Level 1, which is what a Walmart would be, is hard to get and most online merchants do not even attempt to get that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> On the "Before" it says "painful". What is painful about it?

And as someone else said, I also tried entering ON the card rather than below it.

<comment><USER16> that would be a neat feature.. kinda hard to do the CVV thing though.. unless you have a "flip me" link somewhere...

<comment><USER15> Well there is this one which flips [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6143604](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6143604)

And this one which doesn't [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6692075](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6692075)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Very cool experiment but as others have pointed out it's tough to beat simplicity from a conversion perspective.

Example Amazon:

[http://i.imgur.com/aK8K4UY.png?1](http://i.imgur.com/aK8K4UY.png?1)

Single name on card field Card # Dropdown for EXP

Example Stripe:

[https://stripe.com/checkout](https://stripe.com/checkout)

Single name on card field Card # Exp / CVC

Less is more when it comes to this point in your conversion funnel.

And the fundamental conversion issue around collecting a CC at this point in cycle isn't usually design, it's trust.

<comment><USER18> (disclaimer: balanced employee)

There's a direct statistical correlation between less fields and the amount of chargebacks received.

So, yes, less is more for a conversion funnel, but do not assume that it comes without a cost.

<comment><USER17> "direct statistical correlation between less fields and the amount of chargebacks received"

Spot on and completely agreed.

But in my experience getting that CC at nearly any cost, even @ the end of a long sales process, delivers net gains even measured against returns etc.

For enterprise (eg anybody that can afford it) there are fraud prevention solutions in place to balance the outcome and I've been thrilled watching STRIPE strip away the complexity for "the rest of us".

But point well taken, multiple considerations in testing anything in your funnel and always optimize to highest LTV / KPI.

Point of reference for the above is spending the last ~10 years running CRO projects across dozens of verticals, millions of transactions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Looks nice, perhaps you can implement the Luhn algorithm to ensure the CC is not known-invalid (to prevent data entry error)?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm)

<comment><USER20> Validation on the expiry date would be nice too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is really pretty. Kudos to the dev/designers. However, if there's one thing on my website I don't want to be exciting, it's entering payment data.

</comment><comment><USER22> There's nothing painful about a regular form with the minimum amount of fields.

</comment><comment><USER23> Great, so instead of worrying about someone peeking over my shoulder, I now have to worry about the person 30 feet away, with the size of that font.

</comment><comment><USER24> It's a nice display, but as others have said it invites attempts to type on the card itself (which doesn't work). It also doesn't scale with increased font sizes; the card remains the same size and text within it wraps or gets cut off.

</comment><comment><USER25> Interesting experiment! I'd like to see some data on how effective it is versus typical card entry fields.

At first glance I think users would be extremely confused by what is happening in terms of what to fill out, if not full out distracted by the animated card.

</comment><comment><USER26> FWIW, Chrome blocked your calls to load various JS and CSS files from Yandex because you used HTTP, not HTTPS.

<comment><USER27> Yep, example does not work for HTTPS users of GitHub. I use HTTPS everywhere, so I'm always defaulted to HTTPS where available.

<comment><USER28> And in this case, where not available as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I once saw a detailed analysis of skeuomorphic credit card input, and it turns out the general population is less likely to fail on a non-moving credit card input box, largely because of difficulties with entering the CVC code. This combines both the skeuomorphic nature of Skeuocard by Ken Keiter ([http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/](http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/)) with the simplicity of creditcardJS (creditcardjs.com). I love it!

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm no design or UX expert and this does look smooth.

However, how does this stack up against the recent UX trend of moving away from skeumorphism? Why should a CC number be represented by an actual plastic card that is coming to life and flipping around on my screen?

I believe the future of plastic credit cards is limited given the security loop holes etc. Companies like Square, Google, etc. are already championing transferring money over native internet identities like email addresses.

<comment><USER31> I think that assessment is fair. Consider though that many users struggle with matching the data they have on the card with what goes on the form. Specifically the cvv code since some vendors use a 4 digit code instead of the more mainline 3 digit code. So I see a valid use case in here in presenting them a reasonable facsimile of whats in their hand to match up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Pretty nice, pretty similar to JS Skeuocard ([http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/](http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/))

<comment><USER33> I actually like this one a lot better. Not being able to enter information onto the credit card itself was frustrating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> This is great! There's also Skeuocard ([http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/](http://kenkeiter.com/skeuocard/)) which offers a bit more of a skeuomorphic design. I think I favour the form as part of the card, however this may be confusing/inaccessible to some people - <USER2> work on the library!

<comment><USER35> I have a few problems. To fill out the security field I have to actually flip the digital card over. To do so requires me to click on something that looks like a close button. It made me feel like clicking on it would invalidate all the card info I had just typed in.

When one field is valid that field no longer appears editable, so if there was a mistake in the spelling of my name it took me a minute to figure out I can still click on my name to change it.

It doesn't tell me the card number is invalid until after I enter an expiry date, that may be legitimate but it caught me off guard.

I don't like it. It's too confusing for what should be name, card number, expiry and security number. It doesn't address the fact that after I fill out those four fields, I still need to enter my billing address in what would be at least four additional fields regardless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> This code looks eerily similar to Stripe's jquery.payment ([https://github.com/stripe/jquery.payment/blob/master/lib/jqu...](https://github.com/stripe/jquery.payment/blob/master/lib/jquery.payment.js))

</comment><comment><USER37> For me the whole thing took too long to load. I didn't even see the card until I had filled in most of the data in the fields (and I was thinking, 'What's so different about this?'). Then the card loaded and all the data I had put in already was automatically deleted and I had to do it all again. If I was buying something on a whim, this might just be enough for me to think 'Forget it'.

More generally, while I _do_ think that entering card details is a bit of a ball-ache, I _don 't_ think the solution is having a picture of the card on screen...

</comment><comment><USER38> It doesn't seem to be working to tab between fields in Chrome. Once I've entered the expiration date it just fails to go to CVC or let me tab into it. had to use the mouse to switch fields.

<comment><USER39> It is validating that the card is in date, if you enter a date that is in the future, it will let you tab to the ccv field.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I can't imagine I would ever use this, as a developer or as an e-commerce customer. But it is certainly a well-executed, fun exercise... Folks on CodePen.io would go bananas over it.

</comment><comment><USER41> Used in production today on an internal tool that we do some billing/card running on. After some small jquery options struggles, it worked as it says on the tin.

Interesting reaction by test group when deploying....test group being a small group of coworkers. Without announcement, they immediately were untrusting of it and thought it was somehow consuming the credit card information maliciously. This is the security climate we find ourselves in. heh But after assuring them, they thought it was pretty neat/fun.

Fun.

</comment><comment><USER42> I really want to like this because the design and functionality of is very cool. Like others I tried to start typing on the card so there is definitely an element of confusion that isn't there with a normal form. The last place I want to risk any confusion is the stage at which the customer is trying to pay me! A variation of this where you could type on the card might be interesting.

</comment><comment><USER43> Looks nice, but doesn't play well with autocomplete in chrome (tab completing my name didn't show up on the card)

<comment><USER44> I was about to say the same thing, also doesn't work for credit card number. I autocompleted in a phone number and it didn't show up at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> This looks great, but any code that attempts to guess the card type using the first few numbers always makes me nervous

<comment><USER46> Why does it make you nervous? I was under the impression it was pretty fool proof? See: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/72768/how-do-you- detect-c...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/72768/how-do-you-detect- credit-card-type-based-on-number)

<comment><USER47> FYI, the expression is "fool proof"

<comment><USER46> Fixed, thanks! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Looks absolutely beautiful. But I stopped for a second and did not, at first, give my real card number.

Are we so used to crappy CC forms, that a nice, flashy one (which I know is open sourced on github - I can validate if they are doing something bad) is slightly scaring me?

Wow that's the power of crappy design fed to us for years.

</comment><comment><USER49> Tab from expiry to cvc doesn't work in the interactive. Other than that, honestly, I was just impressed by the "boring" version. Very tidy form, nice to see a new take on it. Existing cc forms around are seriously painful to use. Really digging the card vendor detection, neat touch.

</comment><comment><USER50> That's a lot of code for a sliver of functionality. Does that concern developers these days?

<comment><USER51> If it increases credit card signups at all, it's worth it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Oh, wow. The first time I loaded the page the image didn't form correctly and it was just a block of text which was hideous. Then I read the top comment calling it gorgeous so went back, and now that it loaded properly, I agree! Quite awesome.

</comment><comment><USER53> thank you for this. i've never understood why credit cards are printed w/ spaces between the numbers, presumably to reduce transcription errors, but 99.9% of web forms force you to enter the number without any spaces.

</comment><comment><USER54> Its broken for American Express cards. Amex cards don't do the number as 4 groups of 4, and the security code is on the front.

EDIT: I apologize it works! (note I did try it but apparently mis-typed my first four digits ....)

<comment><USER55> It worked fine for me on my Amex tests. 4-digit security code showed up in the right place, numbers were grouped correctly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> Doesn't seem to show the card at all in Safari. Works in Chrome, however.

<comment><AUTHOR> Which version of Safari are you in? I've tested it in all of the latest versions, but it could easily be broken in an older one.

<comment><USER56> Looks like it's not Safari's fault - I'm using Disconnect, which blocked the highlightjs lib from loading from yandex.st.

<comment><AUTHOR> Fixed :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Anyone seen a similar implementation which doesn't need jQuery?

<comment><USER58> [http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so- large.gif](http://www.doxdesk.com/img/updates/20091116-so-large.gif)

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Except that I would have to use the mouse to navigate from Expiry Date to CSV field. I would prefer a simpler one where i wouldn't need to touch the mouse.

</comment><comment><USER60> Love it, reminds me of the Dropr design when paying with credit cards. I guess it's not for every webpage, but it's a playful payment design

</comment><comment><USER61> I see no difference. This error is displayed in my console.

      ReferenceError: hljs is not defined

On line 123. Hope this helps, good luck.

<comment><USER62> Same for me, the yandex domain they're loading hljs from seems to be blocked. The hljs call is in the same script block as the line to initiate the fancy stuff, so it fails and that line's never reached. Paste this into the console to run that manually:

        $('.active form').card({ container: $('.card-wrapper')})

<comment><USER63> yandex was being blocked by Disconnect for me

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Gorgeous.

Two minor points...

It would be nice if it checksummed the card to ensure the entered number was a valid credit card number on form exit.

You can get 17 digit credit card numbers now.

</comment><comment><USER65> Can't tab out of the expiration date field FYI

</comment><comment><USER66> Looks really nice, but right now it's quite buggy on IE 11. I see a lot of flickering and it keeps scrolling to the top of the page.

</comment><comment><USER19> Another point, I tend to rely on iCloud Keychain and 1Password to store card information.

Perhaps you should ensure it works with those data entry methods?

</comment><comment><USER67> If you need something easy, nothing is better IMO than Stripe Checkout.

It's insanely easy to integrate, and has an awesome (modal) payment form.

</comment><comment><USER68> Mouse scrolling is broken on that page in IE 11.

</comment><comment><USER69> looks cool.

Any A/B test results on conversion rates?

<comment><AUTHOR> Haven't gotten to that point yet — I originally just set about implementing all the cards in CSS then decided to actually make it into something people could drop in really easily.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Love the design, thanks for this! The conversion rate must be analyzed but it definitely looks gorgeous.

</comment><comment><USER71> If anyone ends up doing some user testing with this form, please let us know the results!

</comment><comment><USER72> 2nd coolest thing I ever saw, just behind Psy's Gangnam Style :-)

</comment><comment><USER73> I like it a lot; one suggestion: increment the card colours contrast.

</comment><comment><USER74> Very Very cool!

</comment><comment><USER75> This looks great and without using images - kudos!</comment>


Suggest HN: Saving articles feature request - <AUTHOR>

I really like HN, technical articles with little or no bullshit tolerated.  However, there are often so many good articles that appear for a couple of days and then vanish into the nether.  I've been making good use of the Save Article feature on the nytimes iPhone app, and was wondering if there could be a similar feature added to HN.  With the amount of good links floating around (as well as the useful commentary), I believe this would be a good addition.<p>On the other hand, does anyone have any suggestions on how to manage good links/articles?  I occasionally hear Read it Later mentioned, and there are bookmark sites such as del.icio.us.  I do find that saving good links locally as a bookmark often means that it goes into a black hole as I just don't organise my bookmarks any more. <comment><USER3> Click on the name of your profile at the top right, then click 'saved stories'.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think I get that - any story that I upclicked or commented is a "saved story"?

It's nice to have I guess, but not really the stories that I explicitly wanted to save. I upmark HN stories that I think other people would be interested in reading, which is not explicitly the stories that I want to save and maybe refer to them later - that would be a much smaller subset.

<comment><USER3> Ok. Well, I can't make that happen for you, but better this much smaller set to look through than the one of 'all urls' right ?

I upvote that which I would possibly want to re-visit so for me it works just fine.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll upvote anything, me! Well, near enough to.

It's a smaller list, sure but the first two pages only went back 29 days - <USER2> can remember a post several months back being very useful, no idea how long it would take me to find it again.

If there was some way to get the whole list of links I've upvoted it might make things easier, and if I could cull it down too that would help if I could drastically cut down my upvotes.

<comment><USER3> Another options is 'diigo', formerly furl.net

<comment><USER4> And if you use diigo, _confirm_ that something's been saved by looking in your Library. I've used it since it was FURL. And I've found the diigo bookmarklet will claim something has been saved when it hasn't.

<comment><USER3> Hey, that's weird. I've used them a lot and never saw that, did you file a bug report with them ?

<comment><USER4> No. How can I ever reproduce that? It's only recently I noticed that things I knew I saved weren't there when I did a Search for them. Now I always call up my Library to confirm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have a posterous account that I use to keep links I want to revisit later. It's really nice since you can email links to make posts.

</comment><comment><USER6> I use ReadItLater in my browser and on my iPhone to keep track of stories I'm interested in.</comment>


2014 was such a terrible year for Cloud Security - <AUTHOR> https://blog.perfectcloud.io/security-breaches-2014/

<comment><USER2> Or was it a normal year for cloud security, and we just got better at discovering attacks?

If you've ever worked at a large company, you'd find it absolutely unbelievable that 2014 had an unprecedented number or scope of cracks.

A lot of web-facing, enterprise software is a landfill of abandoned code, unnecessary abstractions, and random hacks thrown in at the last minute to meet a deadline. "Security" for stuff like that is an illusion.</comment>


Scientists are working on a pill for loneliness - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/26/pill-for-loneliness-psychology-science-medicine <comment><USER2> At first, I thought this was a joke, but then I read it and I still think it's a joke. There's all this effort put into fixing the symptoms. How about putting the effort into fixing the cause?

It seems to me that capitalism is failing us when it comes to cures. I get it. It's many times more profitable to find a solution for the symptoms but society should be looking for a fix to the problem.

Now that I think about it's maddening rather than funny.</comment>


hiQ Launches Crowd-Funding Campaign in Support of LinkedIn Lawsuit - <AUTHOR> https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/hiq/ <comment><AUTHOR> (Disclaimer: I am CTO of hiQ) in relation to [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15012883](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15012883) \-- LinkedIn is appealing the ruling that allows us to collect _public_ profiles from LinkedIn.

This is serious business. Microsoft/LinkedIn's position would allow them to be the sole arbiter of who can view, search, and analyze their customer's supposedly public-facing data. This case has major implications for how much power social media companies like LinkedIn and Facebook can accumulate without a feasible way for any new company to innovate and compete.

There is also the aspect of serious misuse of the CFAA and DMCA to bully startups off the playing field before they can gain any traction.</comment>


Ask HN: Keeping up with news with minimal effort - <AUTHOR>

QUESTION: how do you (if) stay up to date with important world events, but without spending too much time reading news?
Could you share the news digesting services availible in the web?
Reason of asking:
Over last year I completely stopped reading general news.
Some of pros of not reading news I observed: more time, peaceful mindset, quicker personal growth.
Though, there is a significant issue I am facing, I am sometimes completely unaware of a must-know historical events, like the current Ukraine-Russia conflict, etc. <comment><USER2> Check out the Yahoo! New Digest mobile app. It's a small curated list of national and global news with updates at 8:00 AM and 6:00 PM, daily. It's a quick and easy way to stay informed.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not availible on Android :(

Found an interesting tech-independent alternative though: [http://www.theskimm.com/](http://www.theskimm.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Quartz Daily Briefing is a news email, that gets sent out at about 6:30am eastern. I find it's a good way to grab most of my daily headlines as I start my day.

<comment><AUTHOR> Any clue on how do I choose the 'edition' in subscribing? Living in Europe, I would prefer American edition, but cannot find such an option.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If it's important enough to be a world event, you'll know about it if you follow even a small number of sources.</comment>


Is Valve's SteamBox a contender for the next developer workstation? - <AUTHOR> http://radar.oreilly.com/2014/01/is-valves-steambox-a-contender-for-the-next-developer-workstation.html

<comment><USER2> This article misses the point of steam boxes, entirely.

Misconceptions the author appears to be under:

1.) Valve are releasing hardware. They are not, and do not plan to.

2.) Laptop steam boxes will come in the future. This makes absolutely no sense, the _entire_ purpose of SteamOS is big picture mode for TV gaming. It's not even meant for desktop gaming, yet alone on-the-move gaming.

3.) Ironic that in his discussion of where Mac users might flee to he says "Dell and HP got nothin'." when one of those companies is creating one of the first steam boxes which Valve announced on Monday (Dell)

4.) Also ironic that in that same paragraph he dismisses Linux, without realising that if you close the gaming part of a steam box all that's left is linux. Not even a new OS based on a linux kernel, just linux.

Just a really poor article which didn't need to be written.

Disclaimer: I work in marketing on behalf of one of the steam box manufacturers, the above views are my own and do not reflect those of any company.

<comment><USER3> I am thinking the writer saw a nice piece of hardware that wasn't made by apple and for a second he is thinking what would happen if he stepped outside the reality distortion field that consumes the west coast.

<comment><USER2> I think it makes complete sense to someone who knows only very basic information about steam boxes, without any distortion field needed.

If you take a look at the beta box Valve released, it's based on linux and it looks sexy. If that's all the information you have then sure, Valve might threaten Apple.

But the author's job is to find out more information than that, and with all the recent press that isn't even 3 minutes of research to do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the article is dead on -- I'm seriously considering one myself.

From the perspective of a developer, a Steam Machine is simply a Debian machine that is _certified_ Linux compatible. People have been screaming for this for years. Even if you install Ubuntu or Fedora, you know that the components have been selected for Linux compatibility. That means something. Granted, 99.9% of standard desktop components are already Linux compatible so it's not a big deal, but it's one less thing to worry about.

How many devs dual boot to play games? Maybe not the majority, but there's a huge market there too.

Plus, don't underestimate the appeal of something that's not just another beige box.

From the perspective of hardware vendors, Steam OS makes a lot of sense too. If you want to sell a "Linux" machine, you'll have lots of demands to support Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, Arch, etc.

But now they can sell a Steam machine, and get away without supporting the other flavours du jour.

Of course, the ironic thing is that modern development is much more OS agnostic than it has ever been: as long as your machine can run Vagrant, you can run anything you want. Linux does run Vagrant better than other OS's (because you can use vagrant-lxc), but that's minor.

Lots of gaming is being done on laptops and tablets. If SteamOS does well on consoles, I do expect Valve to try and get a piece of that market too. That'll be at least a couple of years, though.

</comment><comment><USER5> > _OS X is evolving into a slightly more capable version of iOS, and we're all > dreading the day when the only way we can compile and install our own > software is by using Apple's proprietary tools and going through the App > Store._

There does seem to be a closed app-store trend in OSs now, but I'm not really convinced that a 100% walled garden on OSX is a forgone conclusion.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't know if I can accept the prognostication of someone who thinks that in 2003 "any self-respecting developer was carrying a MacBook, preferably the one the size of a small aircraft carrier". My preferred development environment has been Linux running on a _desktop_ since I started programming. Why would I move to the much less capable OSX or to a neutered version of Linux, when I can just install fedora or ubuntu and have a much more capable ( and in my opinion better ) workstation ?

<comment> __--__ Because not everybody wants to spend days or weeks figuring out why their video or wireless drivers aren't working. They want to get to work.

Until OS X 10.7, it was a beautiful version of linux that just worked. "Less capable", ok, maybe, but I don't see it. My entire work environment (zsh+bash scripts+vim) seamlessly copies back and forth between linux and OS X. Most linux utilities are available via homebrew. Those that aren't I compile from source. It's just like any other linux distribution on that front. It's not perfect, but I get up and running a lot faster on OS X than on any linux distribution.

I'm on Fedora 19 now and in many way I have the same issues with linux I've had since I first installed Red Hat 7 in 2000. The lack of progress on certain fronts in the linux world is staggering.

<comment><USER3> I still don't understand the concept that Linux doesn't just work. I have built multiple desktops and used at least three labtops since 2005 all of which have run Linux and I have _never_ had a hardware issue that wasn't caused by me messing with things. More so then windows and OSX everything has always just worked on Linux. I have had issues with windows needing drivers and OSX not letting me actually use my hardware ( try setting the resolution on a retina macbook ) but the _only_ issue I ever had with Linux was that I needed a special kernel to get my Chromebook pixel to have a working touchscreen.

<comment> __--__ You've never run an NVidia graphics card or had a broadcom wireless card? What about discrete graphics? My current peccadillo is the nouveau driver crashes my laptop if I try to put it to sleep. My wireless card also disconnects intermittently and has difficulties coming back from sleep. These are three major areas for a laptop that have never quite worked right out of the box: graphics, wireless and power management.

I don't want to spend days (weeks!) fixing this stuff and never quite getting 100% there, yet that's exactly what I'm doing right now. Since 10.7, OS X has become insufferable to use, so I switched back to Fedora.

I'm not trying to say OS X is perfect nor that linux is crap. But categorizing linux as "just works" and OS X as "less capable" are provably false. There's also a real vacuum right now for a developer OS that's powerful, easy to use and graphically beautiful. OS X used to fit that bill, but doesn't anymore. Linux never will.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> No (invoking Betteridge's law of headlines).

Also this article is silly.

"So, yes, if you want to call this fantasy, pie-in-the-sky thinking, I'm guilty as charged. If you think the near-term future of software development will be based on some platform other than the laptop/desktop, I wish I could agree. All these "ifs" aside: if I were Apple, I would be looking over my shoulder. At Valve."

He sums up the ridiculousness far better than I can in his own article.

<comment><USER7> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5742893](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5742893)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> In that "Steambox" is a synonym for "PC" then yes , I suppose it is.

</comment><comment><USER9> But.... A steambox is just a standard PC in a nice box suitable for using on a TV. And sure you could probably do some work using steam os if you install applications. Or you could install a more mainstream linux and then install steam which seems to work just fine already.

Not sure of the point of this article.

</comment><comment><USER10> Interesting thought. I've personally been totally sold on SteamOS since it was announced, but it had simply never occurred to me that it might have any more utility than the strapline of playing games on your TV.

Now I'm just more stoked for it.

</comment><comment><USER11> The article bemoans the fear that Apple will insist we use it's app store for macs too.

Yet is putting forward a move to SteamOS, an OS ___named_ __after the app store it is built to promote...

<comment><USER10> I think it's a bit unfair to characterise SteamOS as a promotional campaign for Steam based on name alone. Would you say the same for iOS and the iP\w* device ecosystem?

It seems fairly clear to me that these boxes will stand or fall on their own merits.

[Edit: typo]

<comment><USER2> He didn't mean as a promotional campaign, he meant to promote use of Steam, i.e. to get people to use it - which people who buy steam boxes will be doing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> hopefully they can create an app ecosystem that not only consists out of games.

<comment><USER13> [http://store.steampowered.com/software/](http://store.steampowered.com/software/)

100 titles today. Seems to be building momentum slowly, but it's there.</comment></comment>


Free UX Idea: Never ending browsing. - <AUTHOR> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/sqg1u/free_ux_idea_instead_of_opening_a_new_tab_or/

<comment><USER2> I don't think this is a good idea. What is the bottom of the page? In their example, they cut off most of the CNN site on the first jump. I'm not sure tabs are the best, but this would be very confusing and I can only immagine how many ways this could go wrong.</comment>


EU-only USA Today - <AUTHOR> https://eu.usatoday.com/ <comment><USER2> A lot better than the standard site! Highly reccomend for all users.</comment>


Netscape removed all profanity when making their code open source. Here's it is. - <AUTHOR> http://www.jwz.org/doc/censorzilla.html? <comment><AUTHOR> you know, when I enter a title that is too long on a submission it'd be awesome if it said how many characters it was.</comment>


Show HN: Never miss a booking.com free cancellation - <AUTHOR> http://www.scottshapiro.com/booking-com-free-cancellation-notifications/?utm_source=hackernews&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=booking <comment><USER2> Is this really a thing? Booking a bunch of shit you _may_ or _may not_ actually use?</comment>


Sensor detects influenza in air - <AUTHOR> http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/07/22/tech-090722-sensor-influenza-beaulieu-memorial.html?ref=rss <comment><USER2> Cool hardware. I want one to detect the genetic makeup of the cold and flu viruses that I acquire.

The physicist thinks it would be great to install in public places to detect the virus. I think it would be better to detect if a person had the virus and not let them in the plane or to work at the hospital.

I have had an idea for a while about making ultraviolet light air filters and installing them in high risk airborne virus transmission prone buildings ( such as airplanes, airports, subways, hospitals, etc. ). The idea is that the air returned to the environment will be airborne virus free ( and perhaps smell minty ).</comment>


Oblique Strategies - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies <comment><USER2> I've been using these with my team. Each person takes a card or two during the morning meeting to give a bit of flavor to the day's work.

</comment><comment><USER3> There are some interesting variations of Oblique Strategies. I own Marshall McLuhan's Early Distant Warning card deck and get useful insights from it. You can buy it here: [http://ericmcluhan.com/bookshop/](http://ericmcluhan.com/bookshop/)

The one I use most is called God Codes, and it's been uncannily effective. It saved me $750 and pointed me to the perfect tagline for a product I'm developing: [https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/god- codes](https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/god-codes)</comment>


Startups tend to ignore children privacy law - <AUTHOR> http://russellbulletin.com/2013/06/02/children-privacy-law/

<comment><USER2> Not all startups are from USA.</comment>


Ask HN: Viable business behind single, better-mousetrap product? - <AUTHOR>

I see little problems everywhere that could be solved by a single, more well-designed product (ex: airplane neck pillow that doesn't suck).
Any examples or thoughts on a successful model for selling such a product on the web? I'd rather sell it directly to consumers than distribute it to online retailers. I'd consider >10k units a big success.
Is direct response the only way to go for this type of product? At least some of my ideas are more sophisticated than the snuggie. <comment><USER2> I don't think direct response is the only way to go (I assume you're referring to informercials), especially with all the online marketing you can do. I'm sure there are also resellers which would let you drop-ship and not actually distribute product.

Another option is to get a patent and license it to someone.

I thought this Jan cover article on Wired was really good about production: <http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/01/ff_newrevolution/>

</comment><comment><USER3> Sure, this arm pillow (<http://www.armadillow.com/>) is a good example. They did an interview thingy on reddit here ([http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/axp6v/ive_used_the_int...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/axp6v/ive_used_the_internet_to_bring_an_invention_to/)).

</comment><comment><USER4> We will experiment with brick-and-mortar business next year (we = 2 but I'd do that alone as well).

I think it's a pretty good idea to experiment and keep the same recipes you apply on the web (ie: start small, measure, iterate).</comment>


End the Politics: let scientists & engineers lead - <AUTHOR> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/end-the-politics-let-scie_b_378511.html?view=print

<comment><USER2> "The costs of these approaches can only be judged after more thorough testing and analysis. Thus the side payments that rich countries will have to make to poor ones to adopt such technologies can't yet be determined precisely."

I see the author of the submitted article

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs>

is credentialed as an economist, and had a rapid rise in academia, but not without controversy. I wonder, as a matter of an informed voter's thinking about economics, if we are entirely sure that there are only benefits to fighting anthropogenic global warming and no costs to fighting it. This is a serious question, from someone who lives more than 800 feet above sea level (and far inland besides) and in a climate such that I have to heat my home at this time of year for my home to habitable. If we look at costs and benefits at the intra-national level, as well as at the international level, are we entirely sure (this would now move into the realm of political science) that majorities in democratic republics would support the policy of letting scientists and engineers lead on this issue? (And are we entirely sure that all scientists and engineers are of one mind on the facts of this issue and on the technologies of what to do about it?)</comment>


Why the New Google News Sucks - <AUTHOR> http://www.asktog.com/columns/084Top10GoogleNewsSucks.html

<comment><USER2> "The United States of America has the oldest government in the world."

That's sure not true. Iceland holds that distinction. Google News might have screwed up their layout, but Google is still helpful for fact checking before publishing.

<comment><USER3> That's not a matter of fact, that's a matter of semantics. Checking up on your fact, I find that the Althingi was founded in 930 but suspended in 1789 and Iceland was ruled by Denmark until 1918, so that doesn't sound very continuous.

England has had a (Cromwell aside) unbroken series of monarchs since 1066, does that count?

Still, the US should get some kind of old-government distinction since it's had absolutely uninterrupted constitutional democracy on all levels since Washington's time. (At least in the states that didn't secede.)

<comment><USER4> The author had to mention England explicitly in order to give an excuse for why it didn't count. (I would be interested to learn when this supposed "transition from monarchy to democracy" took place. 1215? 1689?)

Yes, that was the paragraph that lost me all respect for the article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I changed my "edition" to Canada, as that's apparently the only way to avoid the new design. Hopefully it takes them a very long time to push the new design to other editions.

</comment><comment><USER6> I stopped visiting both Google News and BBC News because of their respective and recent UI degradations; the former because I can't find anything and the latter because I can't find what I used to.

Both web sites have been replaced with the Reuters and BBC News iOS apps.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> As he mentioned, the international versions of Google news still use the traditional layout. It's not hard to find it incredibly better...

</comment><comment><USER7> Check out the political rant masquerading as #1.

<comment><AUTHOR> He doesn't masquerade anything; it states that the new layout isn't as politically neutral as the old one, and affirms it to be a bad thing, which is hard to argue against given the sad state of politics in the US.

<comment><USER7> Well, right or wrong, it was a little out of left field in the midst of an extended design critique. And saying it was "a force in stabilizing the United States of America" is a little bit overblown.

<comment><USER8> I agree with you about the overblown part, but I do think it has a part in a design article. The selection of information is an important factor in the final output from a design perspective. Design is not just look and layout without consideration of content and content selection.

That being said, I kinda like being able to exclude certain sources, but mostly for a different reason then to create and echo chamber. I like excluding sites that have poor viewing experience.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


In praise of mandatory indentation for novice programmers - <AUTHOR> http://okasaki.blogspot.com/2008/02/in-praise-of-mandatory-indentation-for.html

<comment><USER2> As a novice programmer, I indent my code rather anally and find it very helpful. Even with html/css it's a life saver.

That said, the last thing I need is more debugging due to a missed indentation somewhere. One of the things I've enjoyed most about Ruby (as opposed to PHP, C++, etc.) is the reduced number of dumb errors like that. There's nothing worse, in my mind, than searching for a bug to find it was a missing semi- colon or some other such triviality, because it feels like time totally wasted.

A logical bug is at least something I learn from. It shows me the error in my original thinking, which means I won't make the mistake again. Its challenging, enlightening and, on some level even fun.

The only lesson I'll get from digging through code to find a bug caused by an improper character, though, is that I should have chosen a better language.

<comment><USER3> "The only lesson I'll get from digging through code to find a bug caused by an improper character, though, is that I should have chosen a better language."

That may be the only lesson, but there's also a nice (but hard earned) little byproduct: you REALLY get to know your code. I want the details of my system to be stored in my brain's firmware much like Woz did when he designed the Apple II. Hopefully, the dividends will come later when I'm tweaking it again.

<comment><USER2> That may be true, but I'd prefer the option to dig through my code if/when I want to. I'm never in favor of enforcing things on people that they could opt to do themselves because you think it's good for them and they lack discipline.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> It looks like the author has little or no acquaintance with Lisp or Scheme in teaching, based on this post:

<http://okasaki.blogspot.com/2008/02/boolean-confusion.html></comment>


Fancy a quick cuppa, in 5k words? (1999) - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/oct/02/10 <comment><USER2> Here[0] is a video of someone making this cup of tea, and why it's important.

[0]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAsrsMPftOI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAsrsMPftOI)

</comment><comment><USER3> Anyone else reminded of a bit in _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_?</comment>


Get free dropbox referrals with this website - <AUTHOR>

http://dropbox-referrals.com/
There is a new webpage avaliable to help you with getting free space on your Dropbox account. If you aren't registered on Dropbox you can do that through this website (you actually sign up with a random referral link from a person who has submitted his/her referral link to database) and you and the person who submitted link benefit 500mB of free space on your Dropbox account. After registration you just submit your referral link so you can benefit up to 16GB of free space through new users of website. It is very simple procedure; no ads, no registration, just join, add your link and you can benefit free space. And it only takes a minute of your time.
I would like to thank anyone who tries out this webpage.
P.S. Mobile version of website is WIP and is due in 2 days time. Any feedback is much appreciated <comment><USER2> good website for free space :)

<comment><USER3> same thoughts exactly</comment></comment>