802.eleventy what? Why Wi-Fi kind of sucks - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2017/03/why-wi-fi-sucks-802-11/ <comment><USER2> WiFi doesn't have an easy life either:

\- It needs to work on unlicensed spectrum, which means that it has to play well with all manner of devices that contend for this spectrum (e.g. other WiFi devices, Bluetooth, IEEE802.15.4). In practice this means that it cannot do much beyond CSMA/CA (i.e. the 'listen before talking' thing). CSMA/CA is a terrible contention mechanism for high density scenarios, and before long much of the air-time is taken by collisions. LTE does not have this problem, it works on licensed spectrum, as such, an LTE base station can just divide the time/spectrum blocks and allocate them to the various contending devices as it pleases (as it owns the spectrum), making almost optimal use of the spectrum that is available to it. 802.11ax will improve on this a bit (e.g. it will have OFDMA, which reduces the collision domain; it will allow the AP do to some coordination, via 'trigger' frames)

\- Wifi has a lot of luggage; IEEE 801.11ax will be backward compatible with tens of billions of devices going all the way to IEEE 802.11b, which came out in 1999.

\- Costumers don't like spending all that much money on Wifi. This cost- pressure means that we don't have as many people looking into WiFi as we should (people writing drivers; people debugging problems; radio engineers; investment in testing equipment).

\- MIMO (introduced in 802.11n), downstream MU-MIMO (introduced in 802.11ac), and upstream MU-MIMO (to be introduced in 802.11ax) are all technically impressive, but also _very_ hard to implement well. (But we are now starting to see the benefits of this, particularly the 802.11ac wave2 devices.)

Anyway, I have high hopes for WiFi, well beyond a billion WiFi chips are sold every year, and it is getting better all the time.

<comment> m-j-fox Yeah. If your neighbor has one 802.11b device and your router sees it on its channel then it has to get out of it's way, dragging your whole Network into the pits.

If you detect anything older than 802.11n, change channels or start knocking on doors.

<comment><USER3> It's extremely annoying as some devices /only/ support B. They're quite legacy at this point, but some people still use older Nintendo handhelds that infamously only work on 802.11b with /very/ 'compatibility minded' options.

IMO the entire 2.4ghz public spectrum block should be viewed as for legacy support. However far more spectrum should go to limited range use. (Also, building walls should have filter meshes that absorb frequencies not designed for use with mobile computer to cell towers / GPS).

<comment><USER4> In theory, that is not necessary, you can transmit information even if the spectrum is completely saturated, by using Wi-Fi backscatter like in: [http://passivewifi.cs.washington.edu/](http://passivewifi.cs.washington.edu/)

You neighbour's 802.11b will never see that another Wi-fi network piggybacks on him and goes 100 times faster. There is even not the need to use the cumbersome CSMA/CA.

Indeed it is not an existing amendment, but if you are interested I would be happy to help someone to present a few ideas at IEEE 802.11.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I dropped out ouf the 802.11 business a few years ago but it seems I am still relevant, after all the article is about 802.11ac, not something about 802.11ax. On the technical side I agree with most of what the author says, but it is only a part of the larger picture.

-First I did my own tests of 802.11ac in 2014 and the manufacturers were correct in their claims at that time. You have to understand that the best speed is when you are in ideal radio conditions and simply you are never in ideal conditions and most of the time you are even far from the ideal case.

\- Second, 802.11 sucks but not about raw speed, the MAC layer of most chip implementations is often ultra simplified and the outcome is that it is difficult to be authentified. This is strange as the Wi-Fi chip most often is a little computer and the MAC is implemented in software.

\- Third, there are unreasonable economic expectations by users as well as the article's author: Wait you want gigabit speeds, ultra-reliability in challenging radio conditions, and that at a tenth of the cost of a 3G mobile radio?

\- Fourth: Your phone has more hard time to cope with that throughput, than the Wi-Fi chip has. Android and Linux in general have many internal buffers because there are layers in charge of different features. The usable throughput is the raw radio throughput divided by the number of buffers. There are research OSes which use pointers instead of buffers, but Linux and Windows use buffers.

<comment><USER5> > there are unreasonable economic expectations by users as well as the > article's author: Wait you want gigabit speeds, ultra-reliability in > challenging radio conditions, and that at a tenth of the cost of a 3G mobile > radio?

Honestly the big reason mobile radios are more reliable is that they're allowed to transmit at like 20x the power of devices in the ISM band. That's not a cost thing, it's just a regulatory issue steming from (some rather outdated) concerns about interference in the shared environment.

I mean, it's true that wifi is sort of a mess. Marketing of the standards has gotten way ahead of real world hardware capability (frankly MIMO as it stands is basically voodoo snakeoil that provides no consumer benefit whatsoever). But it's no less complicated than all the junk going on in LTE either. Everything's a mess.

Wifi continues to have the extraordinary advantages of being privately deployable, performant, pervasive, and standard (i.e. ethernet-framed, so everything Just Works the way everyone expects). It's not going anywhere.

<comment><USER6> > _frankly MIMO as it stands is basically voodoo snakeoil that provides no > consumer benefit whatsoever_

Curious why you say this. In the last few years, I've seen a significant increase in PHY data rate when using multiple spatial streams.

<comment><USER7> I bought the snake oil in the form of a high end Ubiquiti WAP. Waiting for myco to issue me a new MBP touch bar so I can test it out.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, it's not snake oil. There are only a couple reasons it wouldn't work: you're in an unusual and unfortunate indoor environment with insufficient reflectors, or the modem designers were incompetent. Barring those things, you'll get a faster connection.

<comment><USER7> It is working great!

The snakeoil comment was about the MIMO functionality which I can only really test via my iPhone7 at the moment with the 2x2 MIMO client to the 4x4 MIMO AP (UAP-AC-HD). Once I get the MacBook Pro I'll have a 3x3 MIMO client.

I bought primarily because if this animation explaining the benefits of MIMO. [https://unifi-hd.ubnt.com/](https://unifi-hd.ubnt.com/)

The marketing worked on me!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I really want to use Plume... but I don't want my WiFi network to depend on "the cloud". I don't see any reason they should need to upload data about my private internal network to their servers. It means I can't trust them. If they ever went out of business, got acquired, or otherwise shut the service down I'd be left with a bunch of bricks too.

Does anything else do the same kind of mesh dynamic frequency allocation, but without requiring any kind of cloud service?

</comment><comment><USER9> Past discussion

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13790871](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13790871)

</comment><comment> m-j-fox I used to work on the 4x4 mu-mimo chip. The way we tested was to connect coax cables from one board to another. You could get about 800MB/s out of the link that way. At home, I measured 100MB/s between two boxes in the same room and maybe 15MB/s to a laptop 3 rooms away. The only way to get something better is to cheat on TX power levels. No amount of signal processing can defeat attenuation through a couple of walls.

</comment><comment><USER10> What a weird article. My MBP gets 600 Mbps in my living room where my AirPort Extreme is, and around 300 Mbps in the bedroom above it. Both are like four years old. Newer APs are getting to the point where the GigE uplink port is the bottleneck, and consumer 10g hardware is non-existent. What exactly "sucks" about it?

<comment><USER11> I feel like people who write these articles live in houses with two desktop PCs, four laptops, six smartphones, and 15 IoT devices all connected all the time. That sort of setup really does cause problems.

The rest of us live in a world with a couple of computers and a couple of phones and maybe a game console or TV connected and everything is fine.

<comment><USER12> It could also just be in a densely settled area. When I lived in the Mission Hill neighborhood of Boston, I purchased a brand new top of the line router for my parents in the suburbs, but did all the configuration at my apartment. When testing in my apartment, 2.4ghz couldn't move more than 5mbps. At my parents' house, it had no trouble pushing 120mbps+. From my apartment, something like 40 2.4ghz wireless networks were visible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If wifi sucks then how do you describe Bluetooth?

<comment><USER14> Bluetooth (and BLE) optimizes for a different set of constraints: low cost, low power. It performs terribly if you have thousands of devices in a small room (basically any conference or convention).

<comment><USER15> Or if you make the mistake of changing all of your light bulbs for Bluetooth LED light bulbs. Have to fight to turn on the damn lights on all the time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm curious about "AX" coming up. Uses 2.4/5ghz bands, just more channels apparently.

"AD" i think is 60ghz, which doesn't penetrate walls too well in comparison.

Who knows, maybe we'll all use special wifi wall paint in the future, just to make the entire inside of the house or business an antenna.

</comment><comment><USER17> I'm curious: what do mmWave means for WiFi ? How ideally for consumers should we regulate it ? And could we achieve, maybe at the lower end of mmWave, an unlicensed alternative that competes well with LTE, in urban spaces?

<comment><USER18> Millimetre wave Wi-Fi (60 GHz) does not penetrate walls and in practice needs line of sight and beam-forming antennas. The scenarios it is good for are things like docking stations, or connecting mostly stationary devices within line-of-sight to each other in the same room. Definitely not suitable for anything like LTE scenarios.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> So how does one set up a LTE network in their home? :)

<comment><USER20> If you're handy with software defined radios: [https://github.com/Microsoft/OTP4LTE-U](https://github.com/Microsoft/OTP4LTE-U)</comment></comment>


Banned beans: can Keurig kill coffee pirates with DRM? - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/30/5857030/keurig-digital-rights-management-coffee-pod-pirates

<comment><USER2> DRM for Coffee Makers? This is madness. Anything. But. This.

It'll be hacked, everything always is.

In the end, I'll prefer something like [http://www.home- barista.com/brewing/cory-dcu-dcl-coffee-brew...](http://www.home- barista.com/brewing/cory-dcu-dcl-coffee-brewer-gasketless-vacuum- pot-t21380.html) Coffee before DRM. :)

</comment><comment><USER3> Better solution: tiny RFID tags with a unique ID and public-key authentication. Impossible to fake and dead cheap to implement.</comment>


Highest funded hardware startup in a decade to shut down - <AUTHOR> http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1325499

<comment><USER2> Um, what about Solyndra?

I think a billion dollars went down the drain there.</comment>


Does Google penalize your search ranking when you place ads on your site? - <AUTHOR>

This is anecdotal, but I noticed a 25% drop in traffic ever since I added adsense to my web application a few days ago. Prior to that, traffic was gradually increasing. <comment><USER2> The presence of ads does not have any penalty.

However, If you put too many adsense units at the top of your page, Google would penalize you for a bad user experience. Maybe you could test with different combinations and see whether rankings change.

</comment><comment><USER3> I assume the drop was in search referral traffic - did specific keywords get hit more so than others? If you're whole site has been penalized, you should see the affect across all your keywords. Also check out webmaster tools for more insight - [https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/home?hl=en](https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/home?hl=en)

</comment><comment><USER4> Slightly OT, but I've wondered why Microsoft doesn't implement such a penalty for Bing.

If(Page contains Adsense or any general ad server) Then drop off front page.

Instant increase in search quality results. Eventually taking market share from Google.

</comment><comment><USER5> Does the page load more slowly? If it does, people may be just leaving your site out of impatience. Also, see this comment thread:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6423171](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6423171)

<comment><AUTHOR> No, it hasn't taken a performance hit.</comment></comment>


Top 5 Programming Languages for 2011 - <AUTHOR> http://bostinnovation.com/2010/12/14/top-5-programming-languages-for-2011/

<comment><USER2> Even though I find these language lists pointless, I can't resist opening a link with such a title (feeling ashamed and guilty).

This is the third of the kind I've seen in the past 3 months. Oddly enough they all claim that ActionScript will make it big in 2011.

I have studied no graphs, haven't analyzed any job boards and seen no statistics, but I'm still going to claim here that if ActionScript was a stock, this is one prediction that I believe would make a lot of sore losers in 2011.</comment>


The pitfall of the digital assistant - <AUTHOR> http://blog.onyxbits.de/the-pitfall-of-the-digital-assistant-683/ <comment><USER2> I would argue that you are generalising based on looking at a particular model of how we use digital assistants. How about scenarios where organisations and individual develop digital assistants that are not financed by an advertising model? Or for that matter, the underlying NLP is not based on a cloud computing model?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's kinda the problem: there are no non-profit, voice recognition DA's out there (presumably because voice recognition requires a lot of research and a ton of audio samples - I think, Mozilla tried to get into this?).

We got Google Now, Alexa, Siri and Cortana. Google Now and Alexa are obviously tied into an eco system that has one goal: engaging the user till he buys something. With Siri and Cortana its more like the old "lock the customer in (so he eventually buys more of our stuff)" thing.</comment></comment>


We are winning the war on automobile deaths - <AUTHOR> http://evidensity.com/2011/08/28/were-winning-the-war-on-automobile-deaths/ <comment><USER3> Number of miles driven seems like an important consideration. The following graph is in an interesting (odd?) format, but it looks like the number of miles driven by the average American has dropped every year since 2005:

<http://mbostock.github.com/protovis/ex/driving-full.html>

On the other hand, the improvements in safety are even more dramatic if you consider the average person is driving about 3000 more miles per year than they were in 1975.

As an aside, the Spark Lines are cute, but if the goal is conveying information it would be nice if they expanded to something more detailed when clicked on, rather than just repeating the same information. I was trying to figure out if reduction in miles driven from 78-80 matched up with the this articles data, but it was hard to tell.

<comment><USER4> You seem to imply that accident rates will be proportional to miles driven. I doubt that is true. I would expect the graph of the "chance of an accident _per mile_ " vs "miles driven" to look something like this:

      0
      | *
      | *
      |  *
      |   *
      |      *
      |           *
      |                    *           *          *
      | -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -   minimum accident rate
      |
      </comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>---- 0

I have two reasons:

First, as miles driven increases, driver experience increases. Accidents are much more common among (I'm guessing) 16 year olds with a freshly minted license than a 40 year old.

Second, as miles driven per year increases, the percentage of driving time spent on the freeway increases (due to taking long trips, presumably the major source of milage increase), but accidents are less likely on the freeway. This argument is admittedly much more specious than the first.

Following this reasoning, it is not at all clear that "the improvements in safety are even more dramatic if you consider the average person is driving about 3000 more miles per year than they were in 1975" because those extra miles may not be the most dangerous miles.

<comment><USER5> _First, as miles driven increases, driver experience increases._

I suspect this effect may not be as significant as you think. Certainly, someone who has been driving every day for 20 years will usually be a better driver than someone who has been driving every day for 20 days. I suspect the difference between 2 years and 20 isn't all that dramatic though.

I further suspect that most driving is not _practice_ , by which I mean that drivers are not actively thinking about their driving and how to be better at it. Most of us, once we're reasonably proficient stop actively thinking about the act of driving entirely unless an unusual situation occurs.

If your second reason turns out to be correct, then it also means that a larger percentage of driving than before isn't useful practice for avoiding crashes since highway driving tends to be safe and predictable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's not just airbags, a huge part of it is the greater availability of anti- lock breaks and traction/stability control. My brother-in-law is one of the head guys at GM working in this area and he talks about how life saving these technologies are all the time.

There are lots of studies out there on this, this CNN article mentions a study that says that 1/3 of deaths can be prevented by Electronic Stability Control: [http://articles.cnn.com/2006-06-09/business/iihs_esc_1_multi...](http://articles.cnn.com/2006-06-09/business/iihs_esc_1_multi- vehicle-esc-crash-deaths?_s=PM:AUTOS)

<comment><USER7> ESC helps in many easy situations but it also allows people to push their driving against the limits of their car. Now then, when ESC eventually fails to correct the vehicle's direction and and grip the crash that follows is usually much worse because there's nothing much that could be done within the laws of physics at that point. I see new cars with ESC at the roadbeds every winter, crashed to something.

Everything certainly comes in good and bad sides but I'm of the opinion that good driving skills and controlled handling of the vehicle in various abnormal situations is worth much more than ESC. I like to feel my car losing its grip and controllability, should that happen, at the point where I can _still do something_ about it.

About 90% percent of driving skills is avoiding unexpected uncontrollable situations and the other 90% is about being able to handle them gracefully.

<comment><USER5> I grew up in Alaska and saw this sort of thing every fall with four wheel drive. 4wd provides a significant advantage in acceleration on snowy/icy roads, but does not help a car to stop faster or, barring experience with rally driving techniques take a corner at higher speeds. People with 4wd would regularly get overconfident either due to the ease of acceleration or a mistaken belief that their cars could handle slippery corners better than others and end up in the ditch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> In my home state of Victoria (Australia) we have gone from 1001 road fatalities in 1970 to just over 300 per year, with a doubling of the state's population to around 4-4.5 million.

I knew someone involved in a sizable study looking at what factors had the biggest effects over time. There were plenty of small factors around certain safety requirements/developments or traffic control, but there were only two big factors: mandatory seat belts and extremely graphic advertisments, aka the TAC ads.

The TAC ads basically showed you what accidents look like in real life, and what you look like after an accident. None of this soft touch crap - the state next door ran an anti-speeding campaign where they had people extending their little finger at speeding drivers (as in 'little dick syndrome'). Absolutely laughable and the folks who are the bulk of the problem - young men - <USER2> crap like that.

But when you see an advert that has someone's head going through a windshield in slo-mo, or a motorcycle rider coming off his bike crotch-first into an oncoming van, or a hospital scene with a bloke in traction, it helps dissolve the 'it won't happen to me' mindset. Not altogether, but it's no longer conveniently put out of mind.

I'm at work so I can't find some youtubes to demonstrate, but the ads are usually surprisingly 'real'. Needless to say, the ads are usually quite shocking to people exposed to them for the first time.

<comment><USER9> _None of this soft touch crap - the state next door ran an anti-speeding campaign where they had people extending their little finger at speeding drivers (as in 'little dick syndrome'). Absolutely laughable and the folks who are the bulk of the problem - young men - ignore crap like that._

New South Wales (the state next door) has seen a similar reduction in deaths. In about 1970, the death toll was around 1300 per year. It is now down to 367 in the last year, and has been averaging about 400 the last few years. NSW has a population about 30% larger than Victoria.

The ads seen here (NSW) are mostly in in the same graphic vein as those seen in Victoria. Indeed many of them are the same advertisements.

The 'pinky' ad was actually an attempt to reach the young men whom you say would ignore it. It was though that they were actually ignoring the more graphic ads, still thinking that it won't happen to them.

<comment><USER8> I didn't realise the TAC ads had come through to you blokes - the times I've visited I've only seen ads like the pinky ones. I stand corrected. The pinky ads are still stupid, though - as if the problematic young blokes are going to respond to that :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm thinking its because we didn't "declare war" on traffic deaths. Auto safety has more or less inhabited that strange place where even politicians were inclined to use real science and employ evidence based programs to make driving safer.

If only they'd tried such a sane approach when it came to recreational drugs.

<comment><AUTHOR> I chose the language in the title intentionally to draw the parallel. I've never heard a single politician in the US even mention it as a problem.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Unfortunately, winning the "war on automobile deaths" does not help those who choose other modes of transportation. More in-car technology creates a more dangerous environment for those outside the car.

Pedestrian deaths have dropped over the time period but not nearly at the same rate as driver deaths. We are seeing more fatalities from distracted and intoxicated drivers.

I think it is about time we stop focusing on safe cars. We need to create roads that are safe for people, not just cars.

<comment><USER7> Indeed! There's an inverse correlation between automobile safety and pedestrian safety. Cars like wide roads, wide lanes, sparse crossings, road sides with everything removed that you might bump into whereas pedestrians are more safe in pretty much the opposite environment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm JUST starting some data analysis of this in my city so I don't have much factual evidence yet but I heard something like wearing a safety belt doubles your chance of survival.

There are many low budget things that governments can do to help prevent even fender benders (which have an economic cost) and luckily at least in my city it's data driven. Signage, road conditions, weather and light analysis and more play a part.

While here the police don't capture it at the scene of an accident, I bet that pedestrian headphone use causes at least a few accidents. I bike everyday and am constantly stunned that other bicyclists will be wearing headphones will driving around. Kind of need all of your senses out there.

</comment><comment><USER13> _Where did this improvement come from?_

If I had to guess, I'd say almost entirely from safety improvements in automobiles. It seems like this perfect little engineering problem (reduce # of deaths/serious injury of people in our cars) which lends itself to continuous improvement over time. Collect and analyze data, develop and apply technology based on results, test improvement effectiveness, iterate forever.

</comment><comment><USER14> I think there are more game changing safety features just coming into production like:

blind spot monitors <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_monitor>

Lane departure warning systems. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_departure_warning_system>

Precrash systems, like attention assist. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precrash_system>

<comment><AUTHOR> Great list, thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> A lot of this is just because unemployment is 9% and fewer people have jobs to drive to.

<comment><USER16> Perhaps we should say that people are driving less because there is less commercial incentive to do so. A slower-growing economy has higher unemployment and less need for trucking, etc.</comment></comment>


Remembering When Only Barbarians Drank Milk - <AUTHOR> https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/history-of-milk <comment><USER2> Interesting, especially since the linguistic/cultural ancestors of the Greeks, the Proto-Indo-Europeans were pastorals who highly valued milk and milk- products. There are traces of this everywhere, from the 'dual meanings' of a number of words in Indo-European for "cows" and "wealth", e.g. German _Vieh_ "cattle, livestock" which is cognate with English _fee_ as well as Latin _pecunia_ "money" alongside of Latin _pecus_ "cattle" and the sacredness of cows in India.

So one special genetic characteristic of Proto-Indo-Europeans is their capacity to digest milk (cp. [https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01667476/file/GarnierSagartSagot_mi...](https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01667476/file/GarnierSagartSagot_milk.pdf) )

<comment><USER3> > So one special genetic characteristic of Proto-Indo-Europeans is their > capacity to digest milk

A significant number of PIE were and a significant number of PIE descendants today are lactose intolerant. It is primarily northern europeans who consume milk and are the least lactose intolerant. Most PIE descendants consumes milk- products like cheese, yogurt, butter, etc.

Also, none PIE cultures ( mongols, turks, arabs, siberians, etc ) are primarily lactose intolerant but they consume milk-based products.

I think I read that processing milk into yogurt, cheese, butter, etc removes lactose or makes it easier for the lactose intolerant to consume. But don't quote me on that.

<comment><USER4> > I think I read that processing milk into yogurt, cheese, butter, etc removes > lactose or makes it easier for the lactose intolerant to consume. But don't > quote me on that.

I've read that too I think it breaks down the lactose sugar molecule which is why lactose intolerant people can eat Greek yogurt (not just any yogurt) and cheese.

It's kind of odd we call people lactose intolerant when probably only 5% of the world is able to digest lactose. The majority of the world cannot digest lactose but that's normal not a disease.

<comment><USER5> I don't think 95% are lactose intolerant globally. Also, being lactose intolerant from birth _is_ a disorder, and it's extremely rare.

The Wikipedia article on the subject mentions that the number of people who are lactose intolerant as adults is unknown, but goes on to say "One estimate puts the average at 65% of the global population.[8] Rates of lactose intolerance vary between regions, from less than 10% in Northern Europe to as high as 95% in parts of Asia and Africa.[3]"

It goes on to say that evidence suggests that lactase persistence has evolved multiple times independently, so it's not just a one time European mutation.

See: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance)

<comment><USER6> The lactose persistence gene variant found in Europeans is a one time mutation. It has evolved independently in Africa a few times too, but these variants are not found in ethnic Europeans.

Far less than 35% of the worlds population is lactose tolerant as an adult. I will take a look at the review linked on wiki and try to see how robust this number is.

Edit. Ok trekking back through the literature the estimate is based on old measures of the lactase persistence phenotype which is not very reliable, not on genetic data. It is likely to be wrong just on demographic growth alone in the last 40 years. My guess is around 15% of the worlds population is actually able to digest lactose in adulthood.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Interesting read!

In the context of the recent rise of awareness for animal rights, environmental problems of dairy production and last but not least the discussion about health effects of Milk, I am not sure if the last sentence holds true :-)

"But one argument that seems to have been finally set to rest is that milk and butter are no longer just for barbarians."

<comment><USER8> I was about to say something similar. Obviously the language is a little strong for the consumers of these products. But if we take an honest look at the tremendous amount of unnecessary cruelty endemic to the dairy industry, I think barbaric is one of the kinder words that springs to mind.

<comment><USER9> > But if we take an honest look at the tremendous amount of unnecessary > cruelty endemic to the dairy industry, I think barbaric is one of the kinder > words that springs to mind.

As someone that grew up on a dairy ranch/farm, barbaric isn't something that springs to mind.

<comment><USER10> Was yours a fully industrialized factory farm? Family farms are a very different thing, and unfortunately they're a tiny minority in the industry at the moment.

<comment><USER9> Family farm. I'd still consider it to be a part of the dairy industry however, we sold milk just like anyone else. There were a few bigger operations around, but they weren't much different.

<comment><USER10> I'm glad your local farms weren't like that, but there are mountains of evidence that the big factory farms that provide the vast majority of our animal products _are_ barbaric. I'm not a vegetarian, so I can hardly judge anyone, but you really should look into the facts of modern factory farming and see for yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> In turkish cuisine, butter and olive oil are both used, depending on the dish. I always found that fascinating because it goes against the stereotype of a olive-oil-based mediteranean diet.

As a person from southern germany, I always use clarified butter for frying meat (unless I explicitly follow a recipe that calls for oil). Whenever I am in parts of the world for some time that don't feature it as a product in the dairy section of the supermarket, I go to an indian store and buy some ghee.

I wouldn't be surprised if large parts of populations always also used butter if they had dairy. It may not always be the prestigious choice, but I suspect no one let it go to waste.

<comment><USER12> > I always found that fascinating because it goes against the stereotype of a > olive-oil-based mediteranean diet

That might have a lot to do with the hugely diverse cultural influences in the region over the centuries though

<comment><USER11> also the turks / selcuks being a pastoral people when migrating to anatolia. Although seldom in the 21st century, there are still some people in anatolia leading half-nomadic lives (at least that is what I was told on my last vacation in Antalya).

<comment><USER12> Definitely!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This article notably leaves out India - where since ancient times the cow and milk & butter have been venerated. Milk, Curds were considered an integral part of the ancient Indian person's diet.

</comment><comment><USER14> Being from Croatia but living in Sweden I've always been fascinated by lactose intolerance.

Numbers say that it's much more prevalent where my family comes from compared to here up north. Swedes can often drink regular milk well into their adulthood while many of my peers from former yugoslavia stop drinking it in their 20s or 30s.

I recently found one study[1] claiming it has nothing to do with being a "swede" but rather that lactose tolerant peoples have migrated to northern europe. Why they've chosen to migrate there is beyond me though.

I can understand their argument though, that cows milk has not existed long enough in northern europe to have affected the population. But that doesn't mean the population wasn't already tolerant before cows came along.

Edit: Reason this article made me think of lactose intolerance is because romans were disgusted specifically by northern tribes, perhaps the northern climate does something for lactose tolerance.

I know other cultures like Bulgarians are also mentioned.

1\. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22643754](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22643754)

<comment><USER15> > I can understand their argument though, that cows milk has not existed long > enough in northern europe to have affected the population. But that doesn't > mean the population wasn't already tolerant before cows came along.

FYI, human evolution has been ongoing in recent history and the gene that bestows lactose tolerance on most Northern Europeans is one of the fastest spreading adaptations that scientists who study ancient genomes have found. IIRC, that gene first showed up about 4,000 years ago.

As to why lactose tolerance is more prevalent the farther north you go, I think the generally accepted reason is that harsher winters required more dependence on pastoral animals, since they are a good way to store calories. If you can get a regular supply of calories out of them without killing them, even better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Ancient Geeks knew about and drank milk. It's literally mentioned in Homer's The Odyssey, where Odysseus takes milk on one of his quests. Cheese is also mentioned, multiple times.

</comment><comment><USER17> I can definitely imagine the stereotype being caused by a combination of climate differences and lactose intolerance with ethnic prejudice. That is:

—"I hear they take a lot of milk, butter, and cheese, every day!"

—"Every day?! But those things spoil so fast, they must be eating rotten milk all the time—and it's so bad for the digestion, they must always have flatulence and diarrhea. Ugh, those barbarians are so gross."

</comment><comment><USER18> >and most—but certainly not all—of Italy, olive oil dominates and butter is rarely used.

Loosely, in Italy a line is drawn just North of Bologna, recipes coming from North use "butter", South use "olive oil" _mainly_.

<comment><USER19> I like to cook with a 50/50 combination - the oil helps the butter not to burn!

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> _The Romans often commented on the inferiority of other cultures, and they took excessive milk drinking as evidence of barbarism._

Hah! I remember another empire that was like that only about 50 years ago. Now it falls way down the list on countless measures of quality ... and yet still thinks it's tops.

At least the barbarians weren't imbibing lead each day.

</comment><comment><USER21> TFW the button to consent to tracking on Atlas Obscura is just "javascript:void(0)". This is not how it's supposed to be done, right?

<comment><USER22> Since the dialog closes when you click it, that's clearly not everything there's to it. It also sets the ao_cookies_ok cookie to 1.</comment></comment>


Iterating over Collections in Java - <AUTHOR> https://harrisonbrock.dev/2019/01/29/iterating-over-collections-in-java/ <comment><USER2> Don't forget streams. Streams are my go-to for anything simple these says

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I will do a post on Streams at some point.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What are the best product landing pages you've stumbled upon? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Every product on Stripe:

[https://stripe.com/checkout](https://stripe.com/checkout)

[https://stripe.com/connect](https://stripe.com/connect)

[https://stripe.com/subscriptions](https://stripe.com/subscriptions)

[https://stripe.com/bitcoin](https://stripe.com/bitcoin)

<comment><USER3> I love their designs and Square's. I have used Square's earlier landing page for Square cash as inspiration but I hate the low contrast text on these stripe pages...

I am all for [http://contrastrebellion.com/](http://contrastrebellion.com/)

<comment><USER4> Plus, what a beautiful example of great graphic and UX design. Thanks for the link!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I like these more for their aesthetic properties than for any technical or sales-focussed reason. I really have no idea how well any of these would convert.

[http://www.getjustlanded.com](http://www.getjustlanded.com)

[http://www.firewatchgame.com](http://www.firewatchgame.com)

[http://www.kaleidoscopeapp.com](http://www.kaleidoscopeapp.com)

<comment><USER6> Developer of @justlanded here :) Thanks for appreciating our landing page – @partlysean did a great job on it. We also recently released Patchmania which has a neat landing page you might like: [http://getpatchmania.com](http://getpatchmania.com)

Honestly, because we're an app company rather than an e-commerce or SaaS company, a lot of the effort we put into these pages is largely for the benefit of the press (who often research apps on desktop). The vast majority of end users discover our apps through the App Stores themselves, so we put even more effort into our icon, screenshots, app preview, description, keywords etc.

As for conversion rates, sadly Apple hasn't opened up any analytics to developers for their actual App Store product pages (even though they announced they would a year ago at WWDC), so what users are doing when browsing the actual stores is largely a black box - we have no idea how many people view our app store previews or screenshots etc. or even where they came from (many deep-linking schemes we've looked at are pretty brittle or don't work at all).

Conversion rates on the website landing pages are pretty good - there's not much else to do on those pages than download the app, and chances are you came there with that goal.

<comment><USER7> I didn't realize this is an active project that happens recently until you reply. It looks nice but in a 2 year ago way. You demo is in iOS6, that is so ancient. I would immediately get turned away by it

<comment><USER6> It's true that Just Landed hasn't been updated for a while. That will change later this year. We've been working on Patchmania ([http://getpatchmania.com](http://getpatchmania.com)) for 2 years, which launched recently.

Honestly, if you're reacting to the video showing iOS 6 I think you're probably focusing on the wrong thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It probably won't get much love ( I hated the "landing page" while making it ), but [http://paste.click/](http://paste.click/)

It was really just to put _something_ in on the domain root. Only a couple people actually use paste.click, and it was written just for my own use initially, but people asked wtf it was every time I linked to something on it so it got a "landing page". I didn't put all too much thought into it, but after I pushed it live I realized that it's everything I want in a landing page.

It describes what it is, has some examples, and that's about it. No marketing speak or buzzwords. Now, obviously its not a product or anything, and I don't intend to market it or care about who uses it, which gives me some leeway, plus there's not all too much to say about it, but I wish more landing pages had a similar feel.

<comment><USER9> Wow, can't say I like the landing page too much, but it does gets the features across, which many other landings pages fail. I like it that it's very simple.

With that said, the service is also killer, if you're interested, I wrote some shorthands (aliases/functions) that you (or any user of the service) might have for, check it out: [https://coderwall.com/p/l-7kqg/dead-simple-pastbin- service-f...](https://coderwall.com/p/l-7kqg/dead-simple-pastbin-service-for- programmers-pipe-terminal-commands-use-files-images-etc)

<comment><USER8> Glad to hear you like it! My idea was to have something very composable and "unix-y", I'm happy to see people using it like that.

I have a a very similar function in my .zshrc ( [http://paste.click/s/bGGcnq](http://paste.click/s/bGGcnq) ) rolled into a single function, though xsel is probably less portable/supported than pbcopy now that I think about it. The last two examples I have bound to Super + S and Super + V, but unfortunately there's no portable and simple way to do that, so I left the config for it out. ( For awesome wm if anyone is curious [http://paste.click/s/xydBVJ](http://paste.click/s/xydBVJ) )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Some of my favorites:

[http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet/](http://bellroy.com/slim-your-wallet/)

[https://www.leesa.com/](https://www.leesa.com/)

[http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil/](http://www.fiftythree.com/pencil/)

Stuff I use or have used:

[https://www.hipchat.com/](https://www.hipchat.com/)

[http://mailchimp.com/features/](http://mailchimp.com/features/)

[https://evernote.com/](https://evernote.com/)

[https://telegram.org/](https://telegram.org/)

I realize that I'm likeliest to signup for something if somebody I trust tells me that it's worth a shot, and/or if it's really easy to get started and tinker around.

<comment><USER11> Why is telegram.org a good landing page? "taking back our right to privacy" ok, but what is it?! I have no idea...

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Honestly, most of these trendy landing pages look the same to me.

I have to scroll/click to get any information other than a generic, marketing heavy one-sentence description, while most of the space on my screen is wasted.

Something off the top of my head for comparison: [http://www.ultravps.eu/en/](http://www.ultravps.eu/en/)

From this page, I know immediately what they're offering, for how much, why choose them, who they are, how to reach them AND they still have room for fancy images and useless marketing stuff (testimonials). And I didn't even have to scroll or click anything.

<comment><USER13> I 100% agree. The landing page is elevator pitch: explain which problem you solve, how you solve it, some reason to believe, and call for action. And use terminology used by target market.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm a fan of simplicity, so [https://www.uber.com/](https://www.uber.com/), [https://www.dropbox.com/](https://www.dropbox.com/), and [https://www.airbnb.com/](https://www.airbnb.com/)

<comment><USER15> I like the simplicity of [http://getmagicnow.com](http://getmagicnow.com), which appeared on HN semi-recently.

<comment><USER16> There was another service that appeared on HN shortly after this did offering a similar service but for small coding projects. Does anyone remember the name?

<comment><USER17> Rabbits: [https://ilikerabbits.com/](https://ilikerabbits.com/)

<comment><USER18> I think that's dead now. They haven't replied to my emails in weeks. And never charged me for my first project either. Shame.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Many of the responses are based purely on aesthetics, without taking context into account. What's the goal of the landing page? Who's the firm behind it? What type of product are they advertising?

In general, when I arrive on a landing page, I'm thinking:

* What does your product do?

* Why would I want to get it?

* How do I get it?

Sometimes, I already know the answers to one or more of those questions when I arrive. In the case of Apple's Macbook Pro page ([http://www.apple.com/mac- pro/](http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/)) I already know the answers to all three questions, so it's about generating desire when I look at it. In the case of Stripe, I want to know why I would use it over Paypal or building my own Gateway. In the case of [http://www.getjustlanded.com/](http://www.getjustlanded.com/), I need all of the answers when hitting the landing page (and it does a good job of answering them).

</comment><comment><USER20> [http://tiffzhang.com/startup/](http://tiffzhang.com/startup/)

<comment><USER21> [http://tiffzhang.com/startup/?s=34367009997](http://tiffzhang.com/startup/?s=34367009997)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> There's great landing pages everywhere nowadays. The better ones have very clear value proposition and examples of how to use the product. A few examples:

[http://mailchimp.com/](http://mailchimp.com/)

[https://www.kissmetrics.com/](https://www.kissmetrics.com/)

[https://www.intercom.io/](https://www.intercom.io/)

[https://www.heroku.com/](https://www.heroku.com/)

[https://vwo.com/](https://vwo.com/)

<comment><USER23> I really like the Intercom and Mailchimp home pages. Good use of text combined with visuals to quickly and clearly explain the value as soon as you land on the page.

<comment><USER24> Thanks for the mention, guys. I recently wrote a post about our approach to building landing pages at Intercom. Thought it might be relevant :) [https://blog.intercom.io/12-steps-to-creating-landing- pages-...](https://blog.intercom.io/12-steps-to-creating-landing-pages-that- convert/)

<comment><USER25> Loved that article Matt. Especially step 2, THE MESSAGING: CREATE SOME GUIDELINES.

After I'd done this exercise, I realised that all our marketing content needs reworking. So what started out as a landing page redesign has transformed into a giant playbook on _how do we convert clients needing XYZ job done?_ , incorporating everything from cold sales emails to online demos.

Great read. And your landing pages look sublime.

<comment><USER24> Thanks mate :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> [https://distrokid.com/](https://distrokid.com/) Clear message, clear design, clear call to action and a bonus FAQ and Testimonials all on the home page. There aren't any js/css3 effects for bells and whistles and the site loads fast. Great job Pud.

</comment><comment><USER27> The landing page for every Hashicorp product is beautiful, but Terraform's is something special:

[https://www.terraform.io/](https://www.terraform.io/)

<comment><USER28> Nice animation. Agree, but all the useful info is below the fold.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> [http://letterlist.com](http://letterlist.com)

Disclosure - I created and own this site. But it's worth listing here because I know that it performs extremely well (conversions typically above 50%).

I'm obsessed with simplicity the design is really the natural conclusion of minimalism, i.e. virtually no design, nothing superfluous and a simple CTA.

<comment><USER30> Simple? I'm no Puritan, but I'm hesitant about clicking a button that starts with the word "sex". I'm not used to professional high-quality services resorting to ... well, it's not vulgarity, but sex is sort of a traditionally taboo topic. So in spite of how good your product my be, here I am thinking it's more likely to suck because you broke this unspoken rule. But maybe that's just me.

The words are simple, but the choice to include the risky language is not 'simple', in that it's risky/innovative/uncomfortable/attention-grabbing (depending on viewer's perception). I guess a good word is 'unusual'.

<comment><USER29> Great perspective and a fair point. Thanks for the feedback.

I recall that just before I published the site, I decided to change the CTA from the boring placeholder I had to something more playful and human. It was the first thing that came to mind It just seemed like a fun idea. It worked so I kept it.

Reading your comment, I'm tempted to try something more conventional but it's too easy to be skewed by responding to a single data point. It's edgy so it's bound to be polarising (I've also received positive feedback on the very same text).

I might run a split-test to get some data on it.

<comment><USER30> Yeah, I didn't want to give negative feedback per se, but I wanted to share my gut reaction with you because those are just as valuable as thought-out opinions w/r/t conversions.

I admire the boldness and as a Linguistics major I can confirm the craziness of the word, re: standing out, is way more valuable than any imagined revulsion that I may be assuming.

Best of luck.

<comment><USER29> > those are just as valuable as thought-out opinions

Totally agree. And early data says you might be right.

I set up a split test on Optimizely with 2 more variations and both beat the control:

Control SEX UP MY INBOX 35% CTR

Variation 1 DISCOVER NEWSLETTERS 61% CTR

Variation 2 GET STARTED 58% CTR

Variation 1 is winning so far (74% lift, 79% significance). I'll keep it running because right now it's skewed toward HN traffic, and we're a weird bunch here - we seem to behave differently to everybody else

Anyway, thanks again for the feedback. Looks like you're onto something.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Large collection of landing pages in one place - [http://land- book.com/](http://land-book.com/)

(Though they all seem be very similar stylistically. Clearly a selection bias on part of the site owners.)

</comment><comment><USER32> It seems that quite many people have "stumbled" on their own landing pages.

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm a fan of [https://bvckup2.com/](https://bvckup2.com/)

Super simple, super clean.

</comment><comment><USER34> All the product pages from Panic (panic.com) are always a joy. They are simple, clear, and pleasing to the eye. Here is a good example [http://www.panic.com/prompt/](http://www.panic.com/prompt/)

</comment><comment><USER35> I like the landing page for Precursor ([https://precursorapp.com/home](https://precursorapp.com/home)) because it shows off the app's collaborative features in the background (only on desktop) and goes straight from landing page to app without even a page refresh.

It also has a few fancy animated svg illustrations and a well-done effect when you hover over the main cta.

<comment><USER36> The animations lag behind scrolling though, if you scroll down, they appear just as they scroll by. In my opinion those "popup" additions to websites are very annoying and as implemented here, detrimental to the site.

<comment><USER37> Precursor designer here. Thanks for the feedback! You're right about the animations. I'll fix those before we launch this week :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Surprised that neither of these have been mentioned yet.

[https://squareup.com/](https://squareup.com/)

[https://nest.com/](https://nest.com/)

I especially love their mobile responsiveness and have modeled our own after them:

[http://yathletics.com](http://yathletics.com)

<comment><USER39> The thin font on Y Athletics used for "A Revolutionary Shirt" and "The Odorless Sock" is too thin to read easily. I suspect they may have not tested on all types of displays.

Web developers, no matter what platform you like, ALWAYS test your thin fonts on as many platforms as possible and make sure it is easy to read.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> [http://www.facebook.com](http://www.facebook.com) It has always delivered a clear message: you must have an account to use this service.

<comment><USER41> Yes but FB has the advantage of everyone knowing what it is/does. That is very rare, if I didn't know what FB was I would see that page and immediately leave because it tells me nothing about their service.

It's great for FB but would be horrible for just about any other product or service.

<comment><USER42> Snapchat is in a similar position:

[https://www.snapchat.com/](https://www.snapchat.com/)

When I look at that, I think "Worst landing page ever...what the hell does it do, why should I bother, and how do I get it?" But then, if I have to ask those questions...I've probably missed the point, and SnapChat would be useless to me. The whole point is for it to spread virally, so a landing page is pointless.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I like [http://basecamp.com](http://basecamp.com) (I love the artwork, to be honest), and lately I have found [http://getbeagle.co](http://getbeagle.co) \- though its usability could be discussed, I like its aesthetic.

<comment><USER44> I don't understand why do so many people like basecamp landing pages, to me it's just overflown with plain text, I don't know it's just me or not but the more text content I see on a landing page - the less desire I have to read it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> [https://www.digitalocean.com/](https://www.digitalocean.com/) \- simple, interactive and calls for action

</comment><comment><USER46> [http://mixr.ewakened.com](http://mixr.ewakened.com)

Best LP I've ever designed, 67% conversion rate.

<comment><USER47> To be fair it's a very niche product - if you find it, then you probably want/need it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Check out [http://www.useronboard.com/](http://www.useronboard.com/)

This guy has tons of really great UI break downs of popular sites as well as great tips and checklists for your own use

</comment><comment><USER49> I really enjoy [https://readme.io](https://readme.io) and [https://pexe.so](https://pexe.so)

</comment><comment><USER50> [http://www.callrail.com](http://www.callrail.com) \- I'm biased, but I really love ours... It was designed by Bruno([https://dribbble.com/brunofelicio](https://dribbble.com/brunofelicio)) and I built it. In my opinion it'd be perfect if we took the time to make it responsive.

<comment><USER51> Totally agree, looks great on PC and it should be relatively easy from a structural perspective to do. You also show a guy on his mobile device in the image (ouch!). You should definitely do it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Just started doing some conversion testing on our pre-launch landing page and would love to hear what HN thinks:

[http://shadenut.com](http://shadenut.com)

So far we we seem to getting many more newsletter signups with a simple one line message as opposed to a full list of features and benefits. Although results are also dependent on the source of traffic.

<comment><USER53> First, congrats on getting it up there.

Your use of space here is peculiar to me. Traditionally your eye tracks to upper-left, where you have your logo, but there is nothing else there. Your eyes trace right and down from it, and there is just nothing else to look at. The next thing my eye catches is the social buttons top-right. Good design leads your eye to your CTA.

You're giving as much space to some stock-photography hand as you are to the screenshot of your app. I get the "right hand man" metaphor but users don't care how clever you are.

The primary call to action is actually below the fold on my 15" macbook pro. You could walk away from that site thinking the social links were the point of the page given their prominence.

Your headline "a car guys right hand man" doesn't actually tell me what your product is. Few people will want to join a "beta program". You specifically ask for help but you're really making clear what the value prop is aside from "shaping the community" which is not something most users will care about.

Finally, I would encourage you to put in the sweat equity to gather enough data to make the product usable. People aren't going to come in and do all that work for you, they will open the app, search for the car they're interested in, and never come back if it's not there. So you could do something like have all the data for recent model years, or specific makes, etc. Gathering that data is a schlep and THAT is your value proposition.

<comment><USER52> Thanks for the feedback.

You make a good point about where the page leads the users eyes. I think moving the social links to below the call to action and raising the rest of the page up and to the left would help bring the CTA more in focus. Based on our tests we'll also be replacing the extra text with a simple message "A car guy's right hand man. Look up the technical data you need to work any vehicle right on your phone or tablet."

The product will definitely have enough data to be usable when we start releasing it. However, it's impossible for a small team to gather every technical data point for every year, make and model ever which is where the community comes in. The landing page should probably state that more clearly, or maybe just leave the community aspect out completely since it's not relevant before launching.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I like this one: [http://mochajs.org/](http://mochajs.org/) Gets the job done and stands out amongst todays usual landing pages.

</comment><comment><USER23> One of my favourites is Kano. Incredible use of parallax. Disclaimer: My co- founder made it.

[http://www.kano.me/](http://www.kano.me/)

<comment><USER10> It's pretty, but that's about it, really. Didn't really make me feel like learning more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Obsessing about the design of a landing page is like obsessing about the floor layout of a retail space.

Sure, it might be interesting and eventually pleasing to look at, but in the end it is like obsessing about the manufacturer of a specific Coin-Slot- Component of an Arcade-Machine.

And that means it only makes you happy, if happiness is the sound that coins make in your purse. And that is a quite boring and limited outlook on happiness in my opinion.

<comment><USER56> So true. I usually waste way too much energy on this type of thing.

And the thing is, the most harmful thing about it is it will never be complete, never be good enough. You'll look at something neat and you'll want to copy it, you'll want to change your layout and at the end of the day that's just a huge waste of time.

I struggle with it and It's a really bad thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> [Full disclosure]

I made this one: [http://nappee.com/](http://nappee.com/)

I'd be happy to ask you a feedback.

<comment><USER58> Does your nickname come from Merlin's Owl (Italian translation) of Walt Disney's "Sword in the Stone" movie? :-)

<comment><USER57> LOL.

You nailed it.

Really nice catch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> We just revamped (today) [https://jumpseller.com](https://jumpseller.com) homepage.

</comment><comment> art-of-code [http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/](http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/)

<comment><USER60> The scroll-jacking is infuriating

<comment><USER61> I'm on my Windows desktop PC with a gaming mouse and I absolutely agree. On my MBP with the glorious trackpad, the scrolling is beautiful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Does anyone have any feedback for my two sites? [http://pleasant.io/](http://pleasant.io/) and [http://into.technology/](http://into.technology/)

Have tried to make them as clear as possible but it's harder than I first thought.

<comment><USER63> The quantity of text make them a little hard to digest but they both have an appealing character to me. They communicate a sense of integrity and honesty. It might be the Britishness :) I would actually be a bit sad if a more conventionally glib landing page converts better.

I wouldn't sign up to into.technology unseen. If the landing page previewed the current issue e.g. list of topics, and the selection demonstrated excellent curation then I might.

I would bounce from pleasant very quickly because its unclear what differentiates it in the crowded metrics space. My lazy assumption would be that its a bit player not worth investigating, better to stick to the market leaders.

Does Pleasant have any unique strengths you can make its primary focus? For example, the box "People, not IP addresses" intrigues me. I have worked with sites that may only have 5 users but they are the whole business and paying enterprise figures for the service. If your niche was "analytics for when you serve VIPs not crowds" or something, it would get me quite excited and I'd immediately be thinking of cases where this might be a better fit than the alternatives.

<comment><USER62> First of all, thanks for taking the time to write all of that. Really helpful.

I'm going to go through all of the copy and trim it down a bit, you're not the first to say that there's a bit too much. Thanks for saying that it communicates integrity, etc - I'm trying to build a good company (products made with care, giving money to charity, pricing fairly and helping other businesses, etc), so that's really great to hear.

> If the landing page previewed the current issue e.g. list of topics, and the > selection demonstrated excellent curation then I might.

Good idea, I'll add a link to the latest issue on the homepage of into.technology.

> Does Pleasant have any unique strengths you can make its primary focus?

Pleasant is a tricky one, it took me a while to try and describe even to myself why it's different (really not a good start when building a business, I know). There are two main features. The first is the simplicity. I'm aiming to get people using Pleasant as little as possible: you login, you immediately see statistics relative to previous days/weeks/months and can get an idea as to whether things are trending up or down. If you need more info, there are more in depth pages, auto-generated user reports, etc. I've found that even Google Analytics is very complicated - I'm hoping there's a demand for a simple, cheap analytics service.

The other feature is the user identification. You can add a few meta tags / form attributes onto your site and users that have identified themselves (i.e. logged in, signed up for a newsletter, etc) will show up in your analytics, along with their gravatar, etc. I think I need to emphasise this feature a bit more.

> If your niche was "analytics for when you serve VIPs not crowds" or > something...

Interesting idea. I'm currently targeting regular people, small business owners, etc - people who don't need the power of a full on analytics service. But you might be right that this could be worth investigating. I'll give that some thought.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I like the 'how it works' diagram that we put right on the front page @ [https://Userify.com..](https://Userify.com..). (ssh key manager, new version dropping next week). More companies should tell how it works right up front like that even if it's ugly.

<comment><USER51> I really like the colors, simplicity, clean feel and clear communication.

I'd say it feels a little like a mobile-on-desktop kind of thing. Did you maybe do mobile-first and not follow through completely? A side-by-side graphic and/or intro with a CTA might feel more natural on the desktop.

Putting the graphic alongside what you have now might even be enough to make it feel right; something like this (I'm not a designer!): [http://i.imgur.com/HJMrEsU.png](http://i.imgur.com/HJMrEsU.png)

<comment><USER64> Thanks :)

Yep, you guessed it -- it's kind of a mobile-on-desktop bootstrap sort of thing. (The app itself is responsive as well, even moves the toolbar to bottom of screen.)

I think the side-by-side graphic and intro w/ CTA is a great idea. It could even separate into a single column on mobile. and huge thanks for taking the time!! (it's an awesome idea. are you sure you're not a designer?!)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> We're a very small bootstrapped team, building a niche product to help learning anatomy, but our homepage seems to convert pretty well and we always love to try out new ideas.

[https://www.kenhub.com](https://www.kenhub.com)

Keen to get more feedback / critique or ideas we could A/B test.

</comment><comment><USER66> Someone mentioned the Mac Pro page, which is nice and all, but for a parallax landing page,

[https://www.apple.com/ca/imac-with-retina/](https://www.apple.com/ca/imac- with-retina/)

did it for me. It really gets the point of the extra resolution across in a dramatic way.

</comment><comment><USER67> [https://baremetrics.com/](https://baremetrics.com/) has a very nice LP and the product UI by itself is awesome too [https://demo.baremetrics.com/](https://demo.baremetrics.com/).

</comment><comment><USER68> [http://browser.qq.com/mac/index.html](http://browser.qq.com/mac/index.html) [http://browser.qq.com/index_m_7.0.html](http://browser.qq.com/index_m_7.0.html)

Use mouse wheel

</comment><comment><USER69> I really liked the older version of the BinaryAge/TotalFinder landing page. It's changed a bit now, still nice: [http://totalfinder.binaryage.com/](http://totalfinder.binaryage.com/)

</comment><comment><USER70> Wow, very nice landing pages all around in these comments. Here is my attempt: [http://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Psypan.html](http://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Psypan.html)

</comment><comment><USER71> for me I am a huge fan of [http://www.dropbox.com](http://www.dropbox.com)

I know its kind of mainstream (and not sucking up to YC) but I just love it and always use it as an onboarding example.

</comment><comment><USER72> We have the opposite concern... is our product landing page good enough? [https://www.demoit.io](https://www.demoit.io)

We'd love any feedback on ways to improve it.

Humbly, firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><USER73> It does a terrific job of explaining what the product is and who would use it (and this does, I think, seem like a useful service).

Aesthetically, it's not that great. The big checklist is generally a bit ugly (especially the roll-overs), the hero image just doesn't work on any level for me, and the pricing panel looks like it used to have some siblings at different price points (like everyone else has, for better or for worse) but has now sadly become an only child. Also, the video should really be a video, rather than just audio.

If you get some traction and start making a few bucks, hire a good designer to take this to the next level.

<comment><USER72> Thanks for taking the time to provide some constructive feedback.

We've been dog fooding it and finding it really useful, but we just launched and are still working on getting the word out.

We'll see what incremental changes we can make until we can bring on a top notch designer. Thanks again!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> How about this chrome extension landing page? The page is simple, the message is pretty clear and the service is useful. [http://2fb.me](http://2fb.me)

</comment><comment><USER75> I like the Ztory one, but I think it should state more about the product:

[https://www.ztory.com/en](https://www.ztory.com/en)

</comment><comment><USER76> [http://mashape.com](http://mashape.com) \- few call to actions, lots of empty space. delivered great results for us.

<comment><USER77> Hey, great landing page, bookmarked it to take a look tomorrow.

Consider making a custom one for mobile. After zooming out it still convinced me, but it may turn some people off.

Btw, I know it's not a trivial thing to do, and what you have is great. Just would like to have even more people see it :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> Anybody have comments for mine? [http://whitecitydesign.com/](http://whitecitydesign.com/)

</comment><comment><USER79> [https://grexit.com/](https://grexit.com/) \- most simple and gets the point across.

</comment><comment><USER80> Still my favorite: [https://carousel.dropbox.com/](https://carousel.dropbox.com/)

</comment><comment><USER81> Pretty good one [http://www.stumbleupon.com/](http://www.stumbleupon.com/)

</comment><comment><USER82> Is Caltrain F*d today? [1]

[http://iscaltrainfucked.com/](http://iscaltrainfucked.com/)

</comment><comment><USER83> Impressive [http://freshdesk.com/](http://freshdesk.com/)

</comment><comment><USER84> What about Floatalk's landing page?

[http://floatalk.com](http://floatalk.com)

<comment><USER19> Takes too long to get to the point. Take a leaf out of Stripe's book, and make the first thing the user sees be the animated demo. Then let me add annotations to the Floattalk website so I can actually play with it.

<comment><USER84> Ok great. Thanks for your feedbacks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> You should browse crayon.co for product pages... Http://www.crayon.co/?page- type=products-page

</comment><comment><USER86> [https://sublevel.net](https://sublevel.net) is pretty nice.

<comment><USER87> Looking at that page I have no idea what they do. It's taking the 'vague' landing page to the extreme in a very annoying way.

<comment><USER39> I agree, I have absolutely no clue what they do. They mention Twitter, but don't seem to be a Twitter competitor.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER88> [http://www.area301.com/](http://www.area301.com/)

<comment><USER89> This one breaks navigation gestures on OSX - I really dislike websites which over-ride scrolling behaviour.

</comment></comment><comment><USER90> One of my favorites [http://rallyapp.io](http://rallyapp.io)

</comment><comment><USER91> [http://redradix.com](http://redradix.com) is pretty neat

</comment><comment><USER92> [https://houndci.com/](https://houndci.com/)

</comment><comment><USER93> [http://paperjs.org/](http://paperjs.org/)

</comment><comment><USER94> Netflix.com - It shows exactly what you buying, renders fast without fancy javascript animation.

</comment><comment><USER95> [http://teslamotors.com](http://teslamotors.com)

</comment><comment><USER96> [https://www.woopra.com](https://www.woopra.com)

</comment><comment><USER97> [https://userium.com](https://userium.com)

<comment><USER98> I tried to make Userium very simple, on the landing page you immediately see the checklist. Once you register, you get your own subdomain and can edit that checklist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER99> [http://slimwiki.com](http://slimwiki.com)

</comment><comment><USER100> Scratch-it.com is extremely polished...

</comment><comment><USER101> skateableapp.com, I've spent some time on this one, what do you guys think?

</comment><comment><USER102> [https://dripstat.com/](https://dripstat.com/)

</comment><comment><USER103> [http://rbenv.org/](http://rbenv.org/)

</comment><comment><USER104> [http://gethelium.com](http://gethelium.com)

<comment><USER51> I'm not a designer but the text sizes for headings, CTAs and the product name feels plain wrong on this page. There also isn't any contrast for action buttons so they're somewhat camouflaged. This leaves the product name and CTAs (probably two of the most important landing page elements) feeling very underwhelming.

The page also is not responsive.

Why in particular do you like this landing page?

</comment></comment><comment><USER105> [http://housing.com](http://housing.com)

<comment><USER106> It says "look up" with a carrot symbol over it. I understand that's supposed to be a roof? But I swear the site was telling me to look up to the address bar. Actually waited a few seconds for it to do something I was supposed to be looking at.

<comment><USER107> "Caret" but I agree -- it's like I landed on a page that said LOOK BEHIND YOU. Would be rather alarming.

<comment><USER106> Yep. And thanks for the correction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER108> you can also checkout- [http://www.vedicrishi.in/free- horoscope/](http://www.vedicrishi.in/free-horoscope/) ... i am biased ..but looks clean

</comment><comment><USER109> wheniwork.com has a great humorous video

</comment><comment><USER83> freshdesk.com

</comment><comment><USER110> If you want an effective landing page, you need an effective "Elevator Pitch".

Suppose you just got on an elevator with some guy in an expensive suit with a Rolex watch. Just to be polite he says "What do you do?"

You've got until he gets off the elevator to score funding for your company.

I've come up with effective elevator pitches in the past but not having such luck with what I'm working on now. :-(

If you do have at least an attempt at one, use it for your landing page's meta description as well as the first paragraph after your title element. For the whole thing to show up in the search engines it must be 160 characters or less.

</comment><comment><USER111> [http://stripe.com/connect](http://stripe.com/connect)

<comment><USER112> Absolutely love Stripe's homepage. It is simple and yet explains everything. Their website as a whole is a benchmark.

</comment></comment><comment><USER113> I'm tooting my own horn, but I think we did a decent job with ours: [http://wishbin.co](http://wishbin.co)

<comment><USER19> It looks alright, but it took me quite a while to figure out why they were 'superpowered'.

Seems like the main USP is that you get notified of price changes of products in which you are interested, but this is hidden behind scrolling and waiting. I only bothered to wait because I visited through here.

Personally, I would add something like "Add products to your Amazon wishlist. We'll tell you when the price changes." underneath "Superpowered wishlists for Amazon".

</comment></comment><comment><USER114> If the product is an article, this:

[http://justinjackson.ca/words.html](http://justinjackson.ca/words.html)

<comment><USER10> Reminds me of [http://motherfuckingwebsite.com](http://motherfuckingwebsite.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> i think our page [http://xcopy.co/](http://xcopy.co/)

<comment><USER116> It looks pretty confusing if the window is smaller. I'd just leave the page if I visited it randomly.

Screenshot:

[http://i.imgur.com/8CpS67L.png](http://i.imgur.com/8CpS67L.png)

Latest stable Chrome @ OSX.

</comment></comment><comment><USER117> most simplest : [http://getsirclesapp.com](http://getsirclesapp.com)

<comment><USER51> Everyone can save themselves some time and not bother clicking through to this "Test page".</comment></comment>


Google is hiding I/O tickets in developer documentation images - <AUTHOR> http://developer.android.com/sdk/installing/studio-build.html

<comment><USER2> Ok, I followed a shortened link and it drops me into a fairly cool terminal simulator with a space MUD-style game in it. But it's kind of creepy to have the prompt print out as <my actual first name>@io

I know Google knows I'm logged in right now. I know that Google knows that I know that I'm logged in right now. Still, it feels weird.

<comment><USER3> That's because you're using Chrome?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4>
        $ find /Applications/Android\ Studio.app/sdk/docs/images -type f | sed 's_/Applications/Android\ Studio.app/sdk/docs/images_http://developer.android.com/images_' | wget -x -i -
        $ diff -r developer.android.com/images /Applications/Android\ Studio.app/sdk/docs/images
        Binary files developer.android.com/images/admin/device-admin-activate-prompt.png and /Applications/Android Studio.app/sdk/docs/images/admin/device-admin-activate-prompt.png differ
        [...]

Sadly, they're all gone.

</comment><comment><USER5> Just found one. It's the "opportunity to purchase" a ticket to I/O. Registration code should arrive within 24-48 hours.

<comment><USER6> Darn ... I found four but none worked :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER7>
        1. Start scraping all images from http://developer.android.com/training/ inside div.gc-documentation
        2. Inspect manually
        3. Profit

Fun!

</comment><comment><USER8> Very clever approach by Google (I was hoping for a coding test though :), after getting the code (which is the URL), you will be directed to sign in to your Google Account and then would have to complete the Space Mercury Mission (Console Game) to win the Code for IO 2014. For the curious, this is what the game looks like: [http://i.imgur.com/b1LVoG8.png](http://i.imgur.com/b1LVoG8.png)

</comment><comment><USER9> There's the one in... [http://developer.android.com/images/tools/as- buildvariants.p...](http://developer.android.com/images/tools/as- buildvariants.png) ...but I've tried everything I can make of that awful font and can't seem to get the proper chars for the URL.

<comment><USER10> First char is a 5.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It looks like they were hiding them in other places, such as old video annotations...

Source: [https://twitter.com/jc4p/status/456881857481547776](https://twitter.com/jc4p/status/456881857481547776)

</comment><comment><USER12> example image with code for the curious : [https://cloudup.com/cwt9rS66Agu](https://cloudup.com/cwt9rS66Agu)

<comment><USER8> what the game looks like: [http://i.imgur.com/b1LVoG8.png](http://i.imgur.com/b1LVoG8.png)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> What do you think Google is doing it that way? Do they want us all to read/spend more time in their developer docs examining the images?

</comment><comment><USER13> It says I don't have valid credentials for the four or so I found. They all seem like the same text adventure.

<comment><USER10> Same here. Is it because I'm not in the US?

<comment><USER14> I'm in the US and tried at least 10, all with failure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I have only come across the two, both on the link in the OP.

Has anyone found others?

</comment><comment><USER10> Argh, too late as usual.

</comment><comment><USER16> where are you seeing the hiding I/O tickets?

<comment><USER17> It looks like they changed the image to remove the watermark. The actual code has already been claimed.

<comment><USER16> FML

<comment><USER18> I can still see the 2 URLs?</comment></comment></comment></comment>