Intel to Acquire Wind River Systems for Approximately $884 Million - <AUTHOR> http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20090604corp.htm?iid=pr1_releasepri_20090604r <comment><USER2> About 6-7 years ago, Wind River was a big player in embedded software. And then embedded linux came along and disrupted their market. Like most incumbents, they moved to the new paradigm (ie. embedded linux) very slowly and at one point, they were stuck in the uneviable position of maintaining their proprietary OS and linux at the same time (ie. double development costs). Back then, the outlook for them wasn't good in light of the trend of embedded electronics manufacturers moving to linux.

Anyway, that was back then. It's been a while since I was in that industry, so I don't know what the recent history is.

<comment><USER3> That's pretty much correct. WindRiver was gaining a lot of ground recently in the embedded linux area, especially doing baseports of the kernel to new processors.

Considering a lot of those new processors are ARM-based and Intel would like some embedded developer love for Atom, it looks like a purely strategic decision.

Considering they were part of the Android open handset alliance (I believe they helped with the first kernel on the G1), it'll be interesting to see what happens with future development in that area. Most of the new Android handsets are ARM cores (Google wrote an ARM-optimized libc especially for the system).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> That's less than 3x revenue. Isn't that low?

<comment><USER5> Yeah. The annual revenue is almost 400 million, this seems like a low price to pay.

I think the deal involved something else. Otherwise, I am not sure why would anybody find this number attractive.

<comment><USER6> The stock was trading at 8, so it's not really that low to pay 11.50.

It's now trading at 11.75 for some reason that I do not understand (maybe short sellers?)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I read this morning that Wind River make an embedded OS for ARM based processors, which is used by many of Intel's competitors in the netbook market. Looks like a strategic move from Intel.

</comment><comment><USER8> What're the odds of intel trying to develop some x86 extensions (read: new instructions + other hardware optimizations) that'd be better-suited to doing hard-realtime (or at least "low latency") embedded work, and then making sure at least VxWorks + Wind River's linux flavors worked with it?

Have there been any rumors to that effect?

</comment><comment><USER9> They were headed that way for a while now, chapter 11 or being acquired. From what I remember they were in deep trouble since the beginning of this year (laying off people) ....

</comment><comment><USER10> Wow. Wind River is way bigger than I ever realized.

<comment><USER11> One story I heard was that, at the height of the dotcom boom, Wind River were receiving $1 in OS royalties for every HP printer sold. They do a lot of other business, but that alone would make any company very rich.

<comment><USER3> VxWorks had a reputation of being extremely expensive. Long time back we asked for a quote to use Vx in a casino gaming system. They asked what our annual revenue was before giving us a quote. We decided at that moment to write our own RTOS.

I wonder if things like that eventually came back to haunt them as the OS world went open source.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: University of St. Andrews? - <AUTHOR> I'm in the last year of high school. I've been programming a little and thoroughly enjoyed it and thought about studying computer science on a local university (I'm from Czech Republic, EU).
However, recently I somehow realised that I don't have to choose only from universities in my country. I started thinking about studying abroad, which I hoped would bring a better quality of education (according to university rankings) and also a better study-experience (new culture, foreign language).
When I did a small research on the topic, considering only UK as it seems to have the best study-loan policy for Europeans, the university of St. Andrews came up as a good choice.
Did anyone here study there, or does anybody have at least any second-hand information about it? Would you recommend any other university, considering my affection for computer science and (later) AI?
Thank you very much. <comment><USER2> Very good reputation, though a little 'posh' if that bothers you. It has a good college system and social life, though the town itself is very small and I imagine that the student life can become a bit of a bubble.

If you interested in other universities then I'd recommend Edinburgh University. It has an incredible Computer Science program (referred to as Informatics) and the university is world-class. The city is awesome and you have a great mix of student life and regular life in Scotland's capital.

Drop me an email (in profile) if you want more info on it :)

</comment><comment><USER3> Can't add much, aside from the fact you might want to consider 1) that a local Czech university might be cheaper (e.g. a UK university might not add much but might be a lot more expensive -- student debt sucks, and if you can get a free education at home, you should probably opt for that), and 2) to consider how they are being funded, since once Brexit happens, these funding mechanisms might dry up. Also, you might not be able to stay in the UK once you graduate, again due to Brexit and potential visa issues.

St. Andrews (the name) is generally seen as one of the better universities according to a UK friend. But that doesn't say much about the CS programme.

</comment><comment><USER4> I have a good impression of it, for whatever that's worth. This is from occasional mentions of it in a good light, that sort of thing. I know somebody who went there and he wound up paying something like £30 for an annual pass to all the golf courses.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'd highly recommend www.thestudentroom.co.uk if you have questions about St.Andrews or studying CS in the UK</comment>


Why US health care costs grow: The most important chart in health policy - <AUTHOR> http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/most-important-chart-in-health-policy/ <comment><USER2> I would list a few reasons that US health costs are so crazy:

1.) Insurance drives up the cost and hides true costs from consumers. What we buy isn't even insurance it's pre-paying for health care (thinking of HMOs here). My wife took medication for awhile that was $50 a pill. We paid $100 for 3 months worth of the stuff. Those true costs are hidden from us.

2.) You can't outsource it to China or India. If you've been to a Toys R' Us ever you will notice that every toy there is pretty cheap by any standard that you'd want to use. The reason is the cheap outsourced labor. If you want stuff that isn't made in China you end up paying prices that are much higher and more consistent with what you'd expect from the rate of inflation in the last 30 years.

We've been engaging in a devaluation of the US dollar for the last 30 years (continuing a trend that's been happening since 1910). Those new dollars have to end up somewhere so they end up in cost of medicine, lawyers, computer programmers, etc. As a computer programmer it benefits me but after meeting some family who are in less in-demand fields times are tough even for those who have jobs.

<comment><USER3> It's a mistake to think that market forces work in healthcare. When your doctor says you need a test or a certain prescription, and here's where to get it, you listen to your doctor. You don't haggle with him about where and how much. Dealing with our medical system is difficult enough without having to shop around while you're sick.

This wan't your point, precisely, but I just wanted to point it out.

<comment><USER4> The times when I have had a high-deductible health insurance I definitely want to know about the prices, but it's hard to get that option, because the doctors assume that you aren't paying for it. Do I really want to pay $100 for an X-ray of my teeth? Not necessarily: last time the dentist said my teeth were great and they are feeling fine to me, so maybe I don't need an X-ray every year, but they don't ask if I want a $100 X-ray, they just tell me to do this and that and then charge $100. I went to one doctor for an eye exam and they charged me $350 because they assumed I had insurance. The same exam at another place cost $50. You could make your same argument about car repair (when you're car isn't working you just want it fixed), but there the standard practice is the give an estimate. In fact, places that do work without asking you and then charge you for it are looked at as shady.

When the patient doesn't personally pay for the service, the cost of the service has every incentive to go up. Is the service better? Generally, yes. Is the "better-ness" necessary? In the case of my teeth, probably not.

<comment><USER5> Doing an X-ray every year even when it is not needed, does cost more and does not improve your health. Actually, your body gets more doses of radiations increasing the risks. Thus one can say that at the more expensive place your health gets worse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Price Inelasticity + Supplier-induced Demand = The current healthcare economics in the US

Price Inelasticity = "Man, I hope this rebar sticking out of my chest doesn't kill me. What is this ambulance doing to me? Hope it's not too expensive. Now what's going on? What is this tube sticking out of me? And, what's the nurse sticking into it with that needle? Whoa, there are _two_ doctors? Why? Who authorized this? Whatever, my eyes are heavy. I'll figure this all out after some rest."

Supplier-induced Demand = "Look, Patient X, you're going to need Foo, Bar, and Baz done. I'm doing it not because you need it (because I think you're fine), but because there is a 1000000:1 chance you _might_ need it, and if you did, and I didn't do it, you'd sue me out of my profession. But don't worry, you're covered, right?" (He'll also make more money, too).

Bi-partisan solution? Cap malpractice awards (screw the patient) _and_ institute price controls like Singapore, Switzerland, and Japan (screw the healthcare provider).

Share the pain. It's the American way.

</comment><comment><USER7> I am not sure I see how this proves anything, it could be argued that all measures that have been taken have "bent" the curve down which has kept it in line with GDP, and that without those measures they would have "bent" upward at a higher rate than GDP.

There is no precedent to compare against so it is unknown whether not taking those measures would have been better or worse.

In my view healthcare is no different than national defense, in fact it is a a form of national defense. Any argument that can be made for or against nationalized healthcare can be made for a nationalized army and or police force. The only difference between the two is which DNA is being defended against, other humans, or microrganisms and our own DNA.

We all know national defense is expensive, but should it be privatized? I know I do not want to shop around for my own private army to defend my life, I also do not want to shop around for healthcare to defend my life, I want the best the the society I live in can provide.

</comment><comment><USER8> Can anyone explain what this graph actually shows? Specifically looking at the upper-right 2008 datapoint, if Log(NHE/cap) is 9, then the per capita national health expenditure is 1 billion? That makes no sense. (The original article is behind a paywall, so I can't check it.)

It also seems highly relevant if other countries fall on the same line on the graph or not. If other countries confirm the conclusion then it would be much more solid, but if other countries have entirely different curves, then it seems much more arbitrary that the US falls on the shown curve.

Finally, note that a tiny wiggle on this graph turns into a huge saving of health care expenses. For instance, the difference between 9.0 and 9.1 on a Log scale is 25%. I think this invalidates the claim that health care costs can't be controlled, even if you accept the assumption that the future will continue to follow the graph.

</comment><comment><USER9> FTA: _We may rationally value additional spending on it if, by doing so, we buy hope, peace of mind, and other comforts that we value more than the dollars they consume._

I would add social stability to this list. Health costs per capita aren't distributed evenly any more than GDP is. While society can tolerate that some get a bigger share of the GDP pie on the plausible rationale that their industriousness contributes to their wealth, it is less tolerant of the idea that the wealthy should live while the poor die. If the new US health care laws do nothing more than create a more equitable distribution of health care then they would be a success.

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm just supposed to know what the "ACA" is? Why don't people define acronyms anymore?

<comment><USER11> Affordable Care Act

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> _"The history of health care spending in the US is consistent with the hypothesis that we view health care as a luxury good, one on which we spend more of our wealth as that wealth grows."_

Not sure I agree with the wording here. You could just as easily say that increasing wealth leads to increasing life expectancy and increased obesity which leads to higher expenditures. I certainly don't view healthcare as a luxury good on which I chose to spend more.

<comment><USER13> But I think the definition you point to is part of the problem. By saying "Luxury" it makes it sound like staying alive 20 extra years is the same thing as buying a BMW and people tend to reject that.

But from a purely analytic standpoint the two situations are similar.

A luxury is something of value that most people don't have because it is cost prohibitive. Well most people outside the western world don't live as long as we do and aren't as obese as we are. Because they don't have the money to pay for the health care that we do.

So in the limited confines of the study I think their assessment is accurate. With the caveat being their study was very limited in that it doesn't address individual acts that would surely bring health care costs down (as an example negotiating on a national level for drugs is sure to brings costs down though it might have other disadvantages)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> There is a simple mechanism to limit the costs of health care used in other parts of the world: create a law that caps the expenditure to a percentage of the government's budget.

There is no reason the government has to put up with increasing costs, since it has power to drive prices down by virtue of being the biggest buyer. The opposite happens in the US only because health cost providers have figured out that the government will absorb any cost increases (until it goes bankrupt).

</comment><comment><USER15> I'd like to see what this curve looks like in other countries. Are we in the US the only ones who have failed to "bend the curve down"?

</comment><comment><USER16> He doesn't provide a "why", just shows that the logs of gdp and healthcare spending tend to correlate.

<comment><USER17> The "why" is that health-care is treated like a luxury good in the US. Luxury goods tend to not follow the traditional supply-demand rules as much.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to Build a Dashboard for your business - <AUTHOR>

I sometimes see in articles about Square or Facebook the mention of a custom dashboard usually presented on some big flatscreen in a common area of company-specific metrics. Like for square it might be a live transaction count, along with a daily and cummulative dollars processed (for example), among other things.
My question for HN - how many of your companies, either startups, your own thing, or established firms have these kind of dashboards, and:
1) How transparent is it? Is it in a common area where all your employees can see it? And if so, do you hide some things or does the cleaning lady see everything the CEO sees?
2) Do you have any advice or best practices for creating such dashboards? What technology did you use to hack it together, or is it a collection of third party tools you are some how parsing, like Google Analytics and Flurry, etc.
I'm in a big old company, and I'd like to establish a dashboard for us that's transparent and covers our website and app performance. I'd like this data to help us be better at carving out strategy and promote ideas from all employees. I feel like things are so siloed and mysterious.
I'll take any advice I can get. Cheers. <comment><USER2> (Disclaimer: I'm a proud founder at <http://ducksboard.com>)

1) It's pretty transparent because we're a small team (of 3) :) We have a large 37' screen with general information (leads, support tickets, milestones, active users...) and also all of us are using it individually for tracking other metrics (f.i. I'm tracking mainly marketing metrics, while Jan is an addict to PostgreSQL performance).

2) We have a set of predefined widgets, but we mainly push data through a REST API. It's so easy to set up, that even a VC can do it :P

Next week we'll open up the invites floodgates (a.k.a. "public beta"). If you want to try it, please sign up for an account in our site and then sent me an email (diego_at_ducksboard.com) saying that you read this comment on HN. There's a priority line for HN users :)

<comment><AUTHOR> sounds amazing. Will do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> In reverse order.

2) Using something like Geckoboard would probably be helpful. <http://www.geckoboard.com/>

1) The ones I've seen (not in person) are for the purpose of informing the entire team about company/project status at a glance. Presumably when everyone sees the stats, optimizing for them is much more top of mind.

</comment><comment><USER4> Some notes on dashboard design and implementation from Panic: <http://www.panic.com/blog/2010/03/the-panic-status-board/></comment>


Why compatibility isn't just a computer problem anymore - chris-at http://www.macworld.com/article/2943983/why-compatibility-isnt-just-a-computer-problem-anymore.html#tk.rss_all

<comment><AUTHOR> It is worse than the author realizes. Computer compatibility is a temporal thing, you want to read those old Iomega Jaz drive carts? Well you need an OS, Drivers, and computer all built around the same time frame to make that work. Modern computer doesn't have the connections (Parallel IDE) for the drive. Stuff will get like this too, to reboot/reflash your car you're going to need your old computer/phone from the time when you bought. No classic restorations for you in 50 years!

<comment><USER2> This issue with cars, is what scares me the most. We'll be able to have 'classic cars' -> cars made up until about 1980s. then there will be this huge period of cars that have to be destroyed because their onboard computers are totally ancient and not accessible. That or we'll have the ability to 3D print circuit/boards chips very easily from an old archive of designs. _sigh_</comment></comment>


Coder Needed for Social Networking Website - <AUTHOR> http://i.imgur.com/1qUlZ.png

<comment><USER2> We've all heard similar propositions, but at least this request is written by an eloquent persuader who clearly has ambition; it includes social proof and trust factors.

Unfortunately naivety is something everybody has to work through.

<comment><USER3> 3 years ago, I received a very similar e-mail to this on the grad student mailing list at my university. I was naive enough to respond.

I spent a year neglecting my PhD and churning out code for this "startup" while the founders moved gradually further away from the idea of a social network and towards something akin to the million dollar home page. When I eventually quit, they couldn't find anybody naive enough to replace me and none of the other three guys (2 marketing, 1 graphic design) knew the first thing about programming, so the whole thing imploded.

I learned some good lessons from the experience, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> somebody just watched The Social Network movie.

<comment><USER5> Doubt it, or they would know that the coder runs away with the code. And the girls. And the money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Amazing, only yesterday someone asked me to make him a social network "very similar to Facebook or Twitter" for his university, and what it would cost. He expected 50000 users and had his own savings to spend. Luckily he was happy after I showed him Ning, BuddyPress and StatusNet.

</comment><comment><USER7> Are these people deluding themselves, or just scamming?

<comment><USER8> "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

When I first learned to program (err, actually just to press buttons in an IDE, anyway), I had a "great" idea how you could make a site like Facebook, just simpler and better. Thankfully the friend I explained my idea to was more sensible than me at the time.

<comment><USER9> I think you've just described facebook - just like X just simpler and better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Maybe it's from <http://CollegeOnly.com/> ?

<comment><USER11> Doubt it, the founders of CollegeOnly are from Princeton not MIT.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Reminds me of those posts where people create a project on one of those outsourcing/freelancing sites like "I want an eBay clone" and people reply "Sure, no problem, 2 days - 50USD"</comment>


Canada Tries to Turn Its A.I. Ideas into Dollars - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/09/technology/canada-artificial-intelligence.html <comment><USER2> Well, at least the canadian federal government is turning dollars into AI research facilities.</comment>


Guy says, if you can disprove his theory, he will give you 100.000 dollars - <AUTHOR> https://www.infopadd.com/article/the-undisprovable-simulation-theory/1684 <comment><USER2> > Guy says

Did you really just post your own thing and then refer to yourself in the 3rd person?

First of all, the claim that you're going to give someone money is clearly an empty lie because it's obvious you're going to just weasel your way out with vague handwavy logic regardless of what anyone might say.

Second, there's a generic term for what you're doing: it's called an unfalsifiable hypothesis. It basically means to make a claim that cannot be verified. It's a common theme among nutjobs to make (and fall into the trap of believing) their own pet unfalsifiable hypotheses.

Third, a theory is something that has some basis in reality, via experiments, etc. What you postulate is a called a hypothesis, and not a new one at that. The fact that it's a hypothesis that is contemplated by philosophers and not physicists (even theoretical ones) should tell you something about how probable it is that it is a viable explanation of reality.

If you're interested in informing yourself about existing material on the subject of simulated reality hypothesis, you could maybe start w/ reading Plato and Descartes and go from there, or just dive into the "See also" links here if pre-digested alternative hypotheses are your thing: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality)

I'm not going to attempt to convince you one way or another over a well- trodden unfalsifiable hypothesis, but it would do you well to do some homework on the topic.</comment>


Waterfox sold to System1, an ad company that bought a majority of Startpage - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/f3gqoc/privacy_browser_waterfox_appears_to_be_sold_to/ <comment><USER2> Hi all,

Waterfox dev here. I'd appreciate if people read the blog announcement here as well:

[https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-has-joined- system1](https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-has-joined-system1)

While I've always kept Waterfox privacy friendly (and it will remain so) I've never tried to have it as a privacy product specifically (that was cherry picked by the author), as I've explained in the blog. It's not something I've wanted to go down, so all the outrage towards me for that has been, at least towards me, a little unfair.

Also, this post has led to a lot of (what feels like) harassment from disgruntled privacy users, even though nothing has changed.

System1 are pivoting to focus on more privacy-focused ventures, something I'm sure a lot of HN readers are familiar with.

At the end of the day, they were the right fit and aren't going to change Waterfox in any of its privacy aspects, and I can finally grow out Waterfox to hopefully be more than it currently is.

What should be IMO a joyful occasion for myself and Waterfox users has ended up into a collection of conspiracy theories and rather unkind words.

Regardless, I hope everyone has a good weekend and am more than happy to try and answer questions :-)

<comment><USER3> For those for whom an understanding could be reached, no explanation is needed. For those with whom an understanding would not be able to be reached, no explanation will suffice.

There seem to be some that feel that because they use software that is Open Source, it is "theirs". There's no way to help somebody get over the loss of ownership of something they didn't actually posses.

<comment><USER4> Waterfox is not a mainstream browser, therefore its fair to assume its users come to it in search of something that don't get in the major players. I'm assuming again, but I don't think is much of a leap, that those needs are privacy related and having control over the software you use. Not having a faceless company behind the software, like Google for Chrome, Microsoft with Edge or even Mozilla with Firefox is a draw for users. Now having said that reading that its been bought by a company, and one that does business in advertising no less can be quite jarring. Its like you shopping only in a mom and pop grocery for years that's out of the way and more expensive, but you do it to help local economy. Then one day you get there and and while you load up your cart the owners tells you they work under Walmart now. The very thing you tried to avoid. Of course such decision is in the waterfox dev, and he has the right to do as he pleases but is understandable that some people might have problem with the sale.

<comment><USER2> > Those needs are privacy related and having control over the software you > use.

That's fair enough, but I've tried to stay away from branding Waterfox as such to try and avoid issues like this. Nothing has even happened to Waterfox, but I understand that people are to be critical, I think it's fair enough.

> Then one day you get there and and while you load up your cart the owners > tells you they work under Walmart now.

I don't think it's quite the same though. As much as I've done Waterfox for the users, I've also done it for myself and how I'd want and expect a web browser to be. That's not going to change either, but like I said it's fair for people to be critical of that

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> AdTech companies and data brokers often buy privacy-focused products from single developers / small teams and turn them into data collection devices.

I was part of a team that uncovered such a large-scale data collection schema by a data broker company in 2016. They bought popular privacy-focused browser extensions like "Web of Trust" and turned them into spyware, sending every URL users opened in their browsers to their backend. They then slapped some token "anonymization" on the data and sold it to whomever was willing to pay. They even provided a sample consisting of more than two months of browsing data from three million people in Germany to a team of journalists posing as a startup as a freebie. The data contained tons of highly intimate and sensitive information and users where trivial to re-identify in many cases, e.g. via URLs that contained usernames, e-mail addresses or access tokens.

Chrome and Firefox briefly banned the extension from their app stores, but a few weeks after the incident it was suddenly back, happily exfiltrating data from unsuspecting users again.

I then realized that browser vendors often have perverse incentives when it comes to privacy and really don't care so much about it. Even companies like Mozilla allow plenty of shady extensions to exfiltrate really sensitive user data, because those extensions increase the popularity of the browser.

BTW these companies often lie to the original developers / teams that they acquire. "Web of Trust" for example was originally written by a team of students that really cared about user privacy and trust. So I wouldn't give too much about the promises of such companies, their business is selling data and collecting as much data as possible is one of their primary objectives, privacy always takes a backseat.

</comment><comment><USER6> That is too bad, everyone has their price though so not unexpected.

When Startpage got bought I noticed they immediately changed to doing all the scummy things that click jackers do (tracking, fingerprinting, affilitizing, Etc.)

<comment><USER2> > That is too bad, everyone has their price though so not unexpected.

I think that's a little unfair, makes it sounds as if there is malicious intent. I was just thinking of a way I could grow Waterfox with a company that would understand what Waterfox needs. VC for example would've definitely been the wrong fit, as they'd want an exit strategy and want it fast.

<comment><USER7> And I think you're unable to see or you're plainly ignoring the issue from concerned users perspective - what's more, you managed to insult them here saying there's some conspiracy theory just because users don't like what happened to the browser.

Whatever your plans were from day zero or what had to be done, this is not how you should handle this.

<comment><USER2> > And I think you're unable to see or you're plainly ignoring the issue from > concerned users perspective

I don't think that's fair; I've done my best to reply to everyone.

> what's more, you managed to insult them here saying there's some conspiracy > theory just because users don't like what happened to the browser.

People were making things up on reddit (which is when this blog post was posted) about what was happening. I think it's a valid thing to say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> If one man software products can't be sold for money in such a fashion as to reasonably support the dev then it is inevitable that most of them will either be sold or become abandonware. That too, a browser being such a critically important piece of modern software and such a complex undertaking for a single (or few) devs, it is imperative that the user community undertakes to return the favour in terms of money so that such 'deals' are not necessitated. Now while today it is Waterfox we can expect most of the other smaller players to eventually fold too... even folks like Vivaldi/Brave may not be sustainable in the _long_ term. For that matter even Mozilla has a revenue problem that has long been bandaged over by deals with ad companies. It's just that the sharp end of economic reality hits the lone dev much sooner.

Microsoft and Google giving away their browsers for free will essentially undercut every other player out there including Mozilla. And only the users will emerge the poorer for such unhealthy consolidation.

</comment><comment><USER9> Official statement from Waterfox's developer: [https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-has-joined- system1](https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-has-joined-system1)

<comment><USER10> On reddit the developer has stated multiple times that this is a search partnership and not a buyout. The blog indicates that it is a buyout and so does the change in company director. That makes me confused as to what is happening here.

<comment><USER11> could be a deliberate tactic to sow confusion. I would not update waterfox beyond the pre-acquisition version.

<comment><USER12> That's probably why during the last 2 weeks Waterfox pestered me every day asking to upgrade it. I didn't know about the acquisition and tried to upgrade, but luckily in hindsight the upgrade failed because it required a new glibc version that isn't even in Debian unstable. I'll probably go back to FF ESR.

Sad news indeeed; I loved Waterfox:(

Also, If he would have asked for help, I'd have happily donated some quid.

<comment><USER13> Why not try Pale Moon or Basilisk?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Here are some of the responses:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/f3gqoc/privacy_bro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/f3gqoc/privacy_browser_waterfox_appears_to_be_sold_to/fhitztz/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/f3gqoc/privacy_bro...](https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/f3gqoc/privacy_browser_waterfox_appears_to_be_sold_to/fhisfr7/)

</comment><comment><USER15> So, anyone care to make a new fork of FF with all commercial elements ripped out? Lots of fame in it for you.

No disrepect to you Alex, there's just a lot of desire for software with zero commercial element.

<comment><USER16> Is there any desire to help pay for software with zero commercial elements? Especially software as complex as a web browser, where it will take a lot more effort and time than other, smaller open source programs.

<comment><USER15> Hence why I said fame and not money.

<comment><USER16> Fame won't pay the bills though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I use Waterfox because I still need to run a Java applet for one thing.

<comment><USER18> Consider running the applet under `appletviewer`, if possible. Development of the Java NPAPI plugin has essentially ceased (as every major browser has dropped support for NPAPI!), so security and stability updates for the plugin will be limited.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'd like to go on a slight tangent and notice that Startpage has been dropping 1/3 of my queries the past week, with a message saying that their systems are overtaxed.

I don't have much confidence in it. In my experience technical problems often preclude more serious ones. I realise that I'm in the realm of reading tea leaves, but this heuristic has saved me more than once.

</comment><comment><USER20> As long as it stays fully open source then I guess it can be forked if it goes bad. I rarely use it myself but it would be a shame for it to get turned into crap.

<comment><USER2> Don't think it would be possible (or at least feasible?) to make something closed-source with the MPL?

<comment><USER21> The Amiga build of Firefox did exactly that. All the platform specific stuff was in separate files (supposedly) so as to not trigger the per-file disclosure rules.

Now, "modern" Amiga is a horrible dumpster fire of a software development and community. It's a worked example of that saying about how people fight most fiercely over the smallest stakes, with no more than a few thousand users fighting over which of half a dozen ways forward "must" succeed and a long history of scams, etcetera.

But that's your example, such as it is.

<comment><USER2> Ah I see, fair enough.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> What announcement did Startpage make? Is it similar?

<comment><USER23> [https://www.system1.com/press/system1-welcomes- waterfox](https://www.system1.com/press/system1-welcomes-waterfox)

> Is it similar?

Alex describes Waterfox as privacy-friendly.

System1 describe Waterfox as privacy-friendly, and so on. A few highlights:

>> … our promise to him was that we could provide much-needed resources to further build upon and market Waterfox to a broader audience, while maintaining the aspects that Waterfox is known for. We will honor that promise to him and the Waterfox community, …

– and:

>> … Alex will continue to drive product strategy, only now he has resources to hire a team and build an even better product. By leveraging the System1 engineering resources, Alex will be able to roll out more features, more quickly, while maintaining the Waterfox commitment to its users. …

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Burned.</comment>


Some NSA Employees Spied on their Love Interests - <AUTHOR> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/24/some-nsa-employees-spied-on-their-love-interests/

<comment><USER2> I am struggling with the answer to this - clearly privacy is facing a fundamental rewrite. Regulation of this all-seeing-oracle is all but impossible - the sheer numbers of people and requests make policing it impossible (and that's when it was a secret. I would love to know how Snowden affected a spike in requests to NSA from every Branch of government)

Anyway it's all of nothing as far as I can see - some as yet unspecified technical assurance of anonymity, or free for-all - a world where access to traffic analysis is open, anyone can see everyone else's traffic. And spying on your lover is a bit obvious when her service tells her ten minutes after you grep the logs.

I just cannot envisage any of the three actually working - but I am sure that given a few more rounds of Moores law, it won't simply be state actors in the game.</comment>


Challenging myself to code a web app and what I (re)learned - <AUTHOR> Had to stay at home for personal reasons as well as the COVID19.
I re-learned to code by building a small web app: https://ako.beyondmachines.net/
I'm still a noob, but I did re-learn a lot:
1. You don't appreciate something until you try it - Talking about an MVP seems like slacking. You see that your app is not perfect - best you can do is meet agreed quality criteria. Talking about CyberSec is like sci-fi. First day in production you get exploited by elements you didn't even consider. Talking about full testing before go-live seems an overkill. You spend whole day deploying because something wasn't tested in dev/test.
2. Know where you want to go - Coding isn't the only challenge. You must understand what the product should do. Otherwise you around the concepts, never tying it all together into product.
3. Design for desired data - Build a product with understanding of what data it will store. You avoid a lot of pain of data leaks if you don't have such data.
4. Idea creep is real - As the app came to life i got into "this would be much better if". I got bogged down into refactor and more ideas. I wasn't getting more done, just built more frustration.
5. Maintain redundancy - Things fail. Don't rely on only one place to code, store, test, run. Combine the tooling to help in redundancy.
6. Open and transparent - One-person-show must get help. People will find more issues than you will. Invite scrutiny to build a better product.
7. Improve it - Use the idea creep and feedback. Come back and build a better iteration.
What did I build? A small web app with challenges for young engineers - things with real-life practical application in real companies. We should find ways to build and showcase experience as close to practical as possible.
As of today - the product is living it's first 24 hours live.
Thanks for reading all this. I would appreciate a visit, test and feedback.
Bozidar Spirovski <comment><USER2> I would encourage you to post as a link as text submissions are usually slightly at an algorithmic disadvantage to get to the front page. You could either post the link while pasting the writing as a comment, or submit a link to a blog post.</comment>


Glossi's Social Megafeed Takes on RebelMouse, Vizify - <AUTHOR> http://pandodaily.com/2012/07/17/glossis-social-megafeed-takes-on-rebelmousevizify/

<comment><AUTHOR> This is the company we've been building for almost a year now (part time for the first 10 months or so). Big thanks to HN for getting me into startups and getting me to go out on my own. It took 2 startup schools to get me to do it but better late than never.

If you just want to look at a sample page here's mine: <http://www.glos.si/dan>

<comment><USER2> Dan, you are the man, and this is awesome. I met you at an event a few months back (not sure if you remember). I wish you the best of luck with this project for sure.

For anyone else reading, Dan is a super nice, smart, and hardworking dude, and you should definitely check out glossi : )

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the kind words! I don't recall based on the HN username but wish I had a face to recall - I remember faces much better. If you want to meet up one of these days definitely reach out and we can set something up (email@example.com).</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Opposite of Conversion? - <AUTHOR>

I'm trying to name some terms to track our customer analytics and was wondering if anybody knows "official" or recognized terms for the any of these...?
1. A demo who you fail to convert to paying customer 2. A paying customer who cancels 3. A customer who was cancelled and re-starts their subscription
Thanks for any advice. <comment><USER2> You could call the first two of these attrition or drop-out. Differentiate by whether or not they were free or paid.

For the third, it sounds like a case of (2) followed by a signup.

<comment><AUTHOR> The term drop-out is what I was searching for, that will work nicely. Thank you!</comment></comment>


Clang runs in the browser and compiles C++ to WebAssembly - <AUTHOR> https://tbfleming.github.io/cib/ <comment><USER2> So the web browser is pretty much a mini operating system. Firefox and Chromium seriously feel like they have the longest compile time out of any package in Gentoo, except maybe Libreoffice. It has tons of embedded packages that it doesn't pull from the system/native (jpeg and png decoders and such).

So with a lot of these neat things where we compile stuff or run a Linux kernel in the browser, we've pretty much come full circle? It's like running cygwin in wine or an NES emulator inside of Windows 95 VM.

<comment><USER3> I have been thinking about why we have ended up here, and why not just native apps.

The obvious answer is that it makes applications portable, which is great. The other key component I think is delivery. You don't ever install anything, it just exists when you ask for it. That is something native applications have never done, and not even something like JVM has done even though it addresses portability too.

It is also nice that it is seamless with the browsing experience, but I have to wonder if it hasn't just turned out that the typical browser interface is a better interface for computing than most popular OS have been? As the OS and browsers start to see parity, are there lessons from browsers that we can integrate into the OS?

<comment><USER4> The answer is that browsers provide something that users desperately need and no operating system has ever provided: a sandbox strong enough to run completely untrusted code. The success of browsers is an indictment of the entire field of operating systems research. They have either failed to recognize the need or simply failed to deliver that kind of security.

For one example take WebGL. For decades OpenGL had been a native API prioritizing performance first and security last. It wasn't until browsers decided to expose OpenGL that the necessary work was done to make a graphics API safe for untrusted code. And who did that work? The browsers had to do most of it themselves.

<comment><USER5> Native apps had a head start: they don't load every asset from a potentially untrusted source.

I would say that the browser most certainly has the biggest attack surface of any software in regular use. Your average browser is insanely complex. In fact, it is the only piece of software on my computer that scares me.

Multiple JITs, font rendering, parsing, layouts, compression, image handling, sound and of course about a billion edge cases because somewhere along the road we decided that faulty code is OK. Everything with tonnes of state that interact in ways that can't ever be fully tested or verified (because of an almost infinite variety). Let's also not forget that a large part of that is done at the very bleeding edge of CS research. I wouldn't trust anyone to do that in a safe way.

To me, a kernel seems simple in comparison.

<comment><USER6> > Native apps had a head start: they don't load every asset from a potentially > untrusted source

The whole native app is "untrusted" at the point of install. Even an app store offers a fairly thin guarantee about what apps are actually doing. It's _far_ easier and less risky to open a web page and start doing something than install a native app.

<comment><USER5> Yes and no. Trust on first use is a thing. A web page is trust every time.

Sandboxing of native apps are getting easier by the minute , at least for Linux. Flatpack and snappy aren't there yet,though...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Clang is pretty big -- as a comparison, my Z80 IDE which uses SDCC (Simple Device C Compiler, i.e. no C++) loads about 2 MB of WASM + 2 MB of data and executes a compile/assemble/link cycle in about 0.5 sec for a small program:

[http://8bitworkshop.com/v2.1.0/?platform=mw8080bw&file=gfxte...](http://8bitworkshop.com/v2.1.0/?platform=mw8080bw&file=gfxtest.c)

Most of the execution time is spent in SDCC's register allocator, which was recently rewritten to generate better code but unfortunately is a lot slower than the old allocator.

<comment><USER8> What a cool website (and book), I love what you have accomplished.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I guess this just means we're one step closer to Gary Bernhardt's vision:

[https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and- death...](https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of- javascript)

<comment><USER10> Every time something like this is posted, I always think of that video.

As ridiculous and played-for-laughs as it is, it's looking more and more accurate (in one form or another) every day.

<comment><USER11> If we have learned anything in the past 2 years, it is that the difference between parody and reality is vanishingly small.

<comment><USER9> What happens when the stuff like the "exclusion zone" and the war from 2020–2025 come true...? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Next we'll get to a webassembly-only VM that will replace the OS. All 'apps' will run on this VM instead of being native, and most will be cross platform. They'll talk to each other via messaging (using Javascript semantics) instead of bytes-over-pipes as they do today. An integrated globally available, namespaced data store API might replace the filesystem. Each app+version will be accessible by a distinct URL. 'My computer' will finally be fully virtual - a well defined collection of 'apps/data' URLs that materializes wherever I can open one of these webassembly VMs.

With this webassembly VM, early bound (precompiled) lower level languages may not have a strong advantage over late bound, dynamic ones, because the compiler is part of the OS layer (as it should be).

The world seems to be slowly moving, in a roundabout way, towards the OS- browser idea from Alan Kay.

<comment><USER13> Replace "WebAssembly VM" with "JVM" and you will see how it's already available, and why it won't catch on.

<comment><USER14> Webassembly doesn't require you to install Oracle software, or lag your computer for 30 seconds while it starts up... And it doesn't require Swing or AWT. So, there are those _minor_ improvements.

<comment><USER15> Swing is a very good improvement over HTML UI hacks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Every time I see such news, I tell myself maybe it is the time we port a browser into the Linux kernel and build METAL, like Gary Bernhardt foretold.

[https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and- death...](https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of- javascript)

<comment><USER17> Or directly into the cpu. Since there already is a web server in the cpu [1], adding a browser might enable us to run and use web applications without even installing an operating system.

[1] [https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064](https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064)

<comment><USER16> The METAL (proposed by Gary Bernhardt) is not about running in CPU, but running all software in byte code and render native code obsolete, by implementing software process isolation and save the overhead of syscalls, memory mapping and protection rings.

<comment><USER18> IBM's AS/400=eServer is basically implemented this way since 1988 years (some of it going back to 1979). Everything old is new again.

(It has 128 but pointers, btw - so it's future proof for at least 20 more years)

<comment><USER19> The original bytecode OS is AFAIK the UCSD p-System (from 1978) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCSD_Pascal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCSD_Pascal)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Having some random thoughts about the comments here, some of which talk about having a "browser" drive large parts of what we consider today an "operating system". I agree that certain aspects of what most modern operating systems do today can be abstracted away behind a unified, convenient (and perhaps browser-accessible) API. The entire user-experience stack comes to mind immediately, but there are counter examples as-well. The answer to non-unified execution environments (as in different operating systems and architectures) was the rise of high-level, interpreted languages (in addition to corresponding VMs), and runtime environments which exposed a platform- independent set of APIs. We've been exploring the possibilities of implementing bytecode VMs in hardware ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor)), or running a managed code operating system (Microsoft's Midori) for a while now, so the concept itself isn't particularly new. What is WASM's advantage over, say, Java's bytecode? Did we really have to go through so many hoops (reinvent another instruction set and a VM that can execute it across multiple platforms)? Why wasn't an existing technology re-used here to achieve the same/similar goals?

<comment><USER21> Well, what would you have replace it?

Like most things that become very popular, the web is becoming an os-like platform because it solves a problem. Putting your application at a URL is hugely more accessible than asking someone to download something. Maybe not to us HN readers, but to my mom, who's skeptical to a fault of anything that says download, it's huge.

HTML+CSS+JS is everywhere and complete in a way that literally nothing else is. Yeah C is everywhere but (before nowish) you couldn't write a C application once and have it run the same pretty much everywhere.

But chuck, you say, HTML has notoriously bad compatibility and working with it is frustrating. I propose to you that HTML and CSS have so many compatibility problems because of how pervasive it is and has been for so long, and how many different implementations of it exist. Anything is bound to develop compatibility issues when it gets as large as the web.

But you're right, it's suboptimal and other tech has tried to be everywhere. Java and Flash did try, but have you ever used a java applet? They're fine I guess, but they're stuck in a square on the page. You can make a java or flash object take up the whole page and completely control the website but then you run into accessibility issues and complexity on your part.

Javascript has grown organically over the past decades for a reason, and it's being used in this fucked up way because, all things considered, it's the best platform for the job right now

<comment><USER20> Appreciate your insights. I don't really have an answer to your question. I respect the popularity factor, I just can't help but think that we've had (and still currently have) competing technologies which are far more mature and capable. Not saying WASM won't end up on top in the future. There are plenty of applications today that build on parallelisation, synchronisation primitives, IO, IPC... all of which are already perfectly possible today over the JRE/JVM (as an example), but the same can't be said about browsers today (no doubt that with enough work, it can all change sometime in the future). Just feels like reinventing the wheel.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> People might not like it but i really think native apps are going to die once everyone figures out how to optimize this crazy web stack.

<comment><USER23> I disagree. When people start using native languages like C++ for the Web, they will quickly realize they could have just used C++ to begin with.

<comment><USER24> Getting people to download and install traditional software is a substantial point of friction. Average users _hate_ managing software installations, updating, fixing broken installations, dealing with malware, et al. The problem spans from the enterprise down to normal consumers.

Browsers as a better software platform, will significantly accelerate the rate at which software eats everything.

Most software should ideally just work, no installs, period. The browser can act as that platform and it can go a lot further than it has so far. More to the point, there is no other future outcome than the browser becoming that vehicle, nothing can stop it from moving that direction at this point.

You don't need something equivalent to maximum native performance to do what 99% of users want to do. The rare edge cases that need extreme performance will remain native.

<comment><USER25> Really this just points to a lack of vision on the part of operating systems people. There is no reason downloading, possibly "installing" (mostly caching?) and running "traditional software" couldn't be as frictionless as clicking on a link, but that's just not how the software and security model of Windows, OSX or Ubuntu (to name just the household names) are set up.

Browsers probably will win, but mostly by accident and as a result of network effects rather than any inherent qualities. As a platform it's positively awful, though it is getting better in fits and starts.

Ideally we'd have proper sandboxing, proper compilation, proper libraries, proper access to hardware. Alas, all of that good stuff is basically a historical footnote at this point.

<comment><USER26> It's not either/or. The browsers will probably eventually be integrated into the OS until they are almost invisible. All apps will be web apps.

<comment><USER27> Chrome must clearly see this as the end of the road on Windows and MacOS. What incentive do the OS vendors have to champion full-access APIs having feature parity for OS-level JS engines?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> mark-r So Clang itself was compiled to WebAssembly? That's slick, even if it does take forever to load.

<comment><USER28> What about packing up web assembly into a single file container like runtime designed to run server side web applications? This .war (Webassembly ARchive) file could include the application and all dependencies in a single installable that is JITd on load. Might be useful for the next generation of "serverless" cloud runtimes.

<comment><USER29> I see what you did there.

I'd be all for this, honestly, except that the existing containers (yes, even Jetty) are too heavyweight for this use case.

What you really want is a stripped down server runtime that loads and starts your application's archive, fires it up on a (possibly random) local port and opens a stripped down Chromium instance that loads the app from that port.

Of course, that sounds a bit like Electron.

<comment><USER30> Node.js supports webassembly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Finally, wasm short-circuited the will of os manufacturers to make their platform exclusive and incompatible with others.

Now let's see if wasm performs well enough on Android phones, and I guess we are finally arriving into the software deployment heaven.

<comment><USER32> So the mobile part is very interesting to me, as i'm no expert on this: as cool as it is, isn't this whole webassembly thing a desktop-only thing? There is no way smartphones will be able to download compile and run this type of code at accettable speed will they?

Or am i wrong?

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> This is just fantastic. The "happy 2018!" news i was waiting for.

As i've said before, little by little we're witnessing the end of Javascript dominance.

<comment><USER34> Webassembly is still loaded through javascript, webassembly "apps" will be like libraries. You could compile other languages to js before, but the performance gain is really awesome.

<comment><USER33> >You could compile other languages to js before

In the mid-term, there will be no more reasons to do that. Just compile those languages straight to Webassembly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> This is awesome. I was planning to write one myself after I couldn't find any such Clang runner for browsers. I guess I could just strip off a few overheads so I can run some pretty small programs to teach algorithms.

</comment><comment><USER8> Idea - make a website that lets you compile and test any open source program. For example, I should be able to clone, compile, and run gedit (a stagnating text editor included with many linux distros). This would let me quickly experiment with and edit a variety of programs and tools within the web browser without needing to get a development system up and running. I bet open source projects can get a ton of new hackers to continue development on their programs if everything could be worked on quickly within a web browser.

<comment><USER36> Main issue is memory usage. Running KDE+Kate - [http://vps2.etotheipiplusone.com:30176/redmine/emscripten- qt...](http://vps2.etotheipiplusone.com:30176/redmine/emscripten-qt- examples/kate/kate.html) \- uses 1793MB (htop VIRT), 416MB (Chrome task manager). (Oh, and the renderer process wasn't hosting any other tabs.)

Second main issue is speed. qsterix isn't as memory-heavy but runs all Tetris game code inside KDE JavascriptCore, which as part of the KDE/Emscripten build is transpiled to JS. In other words, [http://vps2.etotheipiplusone.com:30176/redmine/emscripten- qt...](http://vps2.etotheipiplusone.com:30176/redmine/emscripten-qt- examples/qstetrix.html) is JavaScript inside JavaScript, and on my reasonable- but-not-last-week-new i3 box, I experience a small pause that I can't explain when I hit the spacebar to drop a block.

Half of me wants to warn everyone from opening these on their phones or tablets, the other half wants to know how badly everything crashes. :P

Note: I tried opening the Kate demo a week or so ago on a marginally older version of Chrome, and the download phase hung. It worked this time though.

<comment><USER34> I can't wait to package this up into a beautiful Electron app.

<comment><USER37> the whole of qt and kde compiled to javascript and ran as an electron app... i can't even

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Cool! Now I just need the JVM as a clang target, and then I'll never have to use anything other than C++ ever again!! :D Webassembly has a tad more promise than ActiveX.

<comment><USER30> Perhaps you could use node.js to compile your C++ code into a native WASM module?

<comment><USER14> lol. Gross! Perhaps if Node.js... omg. Nevermind. You _can_ call pthreads from Node.js. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> This is really slick. Clang took about 20 secs to load on my quad core MBPro. How does this change web development ? Do we need an Ecmascript equivalent for C++ ?

<comment><USER13> >Ecmascript equivalent for C++

W-what?

<comment><USER38> Sorry, for sounding this stupid. Does this imply you can now do web programming with C++ instead of Javascript.

<comment><USER13> Yes. You can build WebAssembly bytecode from C++ and it will run in the browser like JavaScript.

<comment><USER38> Thank you. In that case is it possible to access DOM elements within a C++ program the way we do in Javascript.

<comment><USER13> Not yet, but AFAIK it will eventually.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> so does the concept of the 'browser is the OS' , improve security? Is it analogous to a hypervisor running on a server somewhere, then when you log into the server, it spins up a vm os _just for you_. Now any hacking done on that os is isolated and disappears when that instance is closed. in the same way, when the browser is the os, none of the files,apps or stuff on your machine is available to it?

</comment><comment><USER40> So we could finally port windows93(.net) to C++?

</comment><comment><USER41> There is actually an immediate real world use for this (not just being a toy): online judge (like leetcode). Of course, the final evaluation has to be done on the server to avoid cheating on the test set, but the user can do his/her own test in the browser without the roundtrip to and from the server then.

</comment><comment><USER42> This is neat and shows great potential, I hope in future that Adobe products would be integrated with WebAssembly or even old products converted to WebAssembly and running in the browser. We shouldn't be that far off.

<comment><USER43> Are you thinking like Photoshop, or a sandbox for Flash?

</comment></comment><comment><USER44>
      enlarged memory arrays from 536870912 to 1073741824, took 28094 ms

<comment><USER36> That's a bit excessive. I got the same with "57 ms", and quite a lot of my 8GB RAM (and several GB of swap) are used.

<comment><USER45> 17ms and 533MiB. Seems like quite a lot of variability. This was Chrome on Mac OS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Now we just need to compile a browser to webassembly so we can run a browser in a browser :) then the browser will officially be a complete operating system.

On a serious note though, this is an awesome example!!

</comment><comment><USER47> This is very cool.

It seems like there's some sort of memory leak, though. If you press the Run button over and over, you'll get a little message every 2*N runs about expanding memory arrays by double.

</comment><comment><USER48> So, until when can we build firefox and run it, in chrome?

</comment><comment><USER49> sorry for negative comment: _) it crashes Firefox_ ) very slow *) "1"s c_str? srsly??

<comment><USER50> Just tried it on Firefox, working fine. Changed the code as well, and still compiles.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> And it only uses 400MB of RAM.

Neat though.

</comment><comment><USER52> It does not run in the browser I am using.

That is one reason I chose it. Choice is good.

</comment><comment><USER53> Impressive as it is, depressing that it enables C++ survival. C++ is a badly designed mess that gets ever more complicated and most probably the language itself is order(s) of magnitude complex than the problem you're trying to solve. Please enable other better designed comparable languages (like, D,Rust,Nim,etc..)</comment>


Your Choices Matter (Alumni Reflection for the The Exonian) - <AUTHOR> http://ajayumehta.com/your-choices-matter-alumni-reflection-for-the

<comment><USER2> andover grad here :) Nicely written!

</comment><comment><USER3> Doin' big things... -miles</comment>


Listen to EFF's Courtroom Arguments Against Warrantless Wiretapping - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/09/listen-effs-courtroom-arguments-against <comment><USER2> This American Life did a story on the origin of the State Secrets priviledge.

[http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio- archives/episode/383/o...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio- archives/episode/383/origin-story) skip to 29:05.

The gist of it being, in the original case where this came up, the government claimed the information in classified documents couldn't be used as evidence and thus the case couldn't proceed. The supreme court upheld that request and now the government can always waive their hand and say "classified" and the documents can't be used as evidence. 50 years later, the documents from the original case were declassified and there was no secret or classified information in them, they just proved the government was at fault.

</comment><comment><USER3> The EFF - something that appeared that was greatly needed. Thank goodness they exist.

(Dropping $10 in their bank...)

</comment><comment><USER4> This is really important stuff. I watched a good 25 minutes of the youtube video for Jewel vs. NSA. I really wish lawyers spoke like humans. I understand there's procedure in a courtroom, but it seems like that gets in the way of comprehension.

From what I gathered, the lawyer for the government was arguing to get the case thrown out because the judges don't have the right to decide. One of the judges referred to it as a mobius strip argument. That seemed to piss off the judges.

</comment><comment><USER5> I wonder why people who can work from anywhere and can afford plane tickets continue to live and work in a place that no longer has the rule of law.

<comment><USER6> Because it costs more to fly to the moon? Every government has crap like this.

<comment><USER5> No, there are countries that still have a little bit of reason left.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: visualizing sports statistics - <AUTHOR> http://statseer.com/nhl_players/

<comment><AUTHOR> This is the first version of the site :). We're planning to redevelop to add more datasets, more sports, and different visualizations.

If anyone has any suggestions, that would be greatly appreciated.

<comment><USER2> Very neat. But I think the site could definitely be more pleasing to the eye. In terms of user interface, the onmouseover probably isn't the best method of axis variable selection. It can be a bit awkward.

Also, when using color-based visualizations, keep in mind colorblind users (~5% of males, I believe). I think the red-blue spectrum does a pretty good job of this, but I'm not experienced with it myself. Maybe vary the shade to help contrast between data points.

But solid execution. (Man, Dwight Howard just cannot shoot threes.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, Dwight really doesn't look good on that chart

I hadn't considered color-blindness. That's something I'll have to look into.

Thanks for your feedback :). I think you're right about the onmouseover... I've wondered whether a dropdown menu on the axis in the chart would work. We'll have to work on the visual aesthetic a bit more.</comment></comment></comment>


Breaking up with America - <AUTHOR> http://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2014/09/breaking-up-with-america.html

<comment><USER2> Rough.

I know a handful of talented developers stuck at a large company because of visa issues. They are too afraid to look for a better job because of immigration.

<comment><USER3> Every time I encounter the way our immigration policies treat various co- workers of mine, I'm ashamed and scandalized.

They are the last people to be a "drain on our economy" and they're effectively chained to their jobs, which seems so archaic.

<comment><USER4> Reserve some blame for your company: the reason H-1B programs are so widely abused is because industry can't give up cheap labor.

<comment><USER5> That's an oversimplification since the valley is the leading proponent of immigration reform (yes since the companies there will get better access to foreign workers) but every other developed nation seems to have a more sensible policy like allowing "work status" and not tying it to a specific company. Green cards effectively do that but unless you're Bieber or can afford the $1M investment visa you don't get one on day 1.

<comment><USER6> Green card is not a work permit, it is a residency status. People focus on the work part, but with choosing the green card, one is choosing between the US and the rest of the world for a very long time.

First of all, it requires you to reside in the US, permanently (hence the official name). You don't move home for longer periods (e.g. years), as getting back in the US is not automatic. I understand that the US sees entering in the US as privilege, but these people usually help the US economy, and not burden it, so there is that.

Second, it really limits your options. Suppose you decide to go outside of the US in just a few years after the green card, giving it up, and suddenly, for the rest of your life, whenever you enter in the US, you need to tell you life's story to the immigration officer and why you have applied for immigration status and what happened with it.

And if you have connections, properties or investments in Europe, you will be always in limbo whether the European bank will decline business with you based on your US tax status.

Going for a green card is a no-brainer for everyone who is going for US citizenship. Everyone else, take a better look on it, before you go for it.

<comment><USER7> > _Going for a green card is a no-brainer for everyone who is going for US > citizenship. Everyone else, take a better look on it, before you go for it._

So what's the alternative? I'm asking out of honest curiosity, because H-1B seems to have at least two serious drawbacks: 1) if you want to switch jobs, you have to go through the lottery again (as far as I understand), and 2) your dependents are on H-4 visa, which means that they aren't allowed to get a job (except as a volunteer).

<comment><USER8> 1) Is not true. If you change jobs you don't have to go through the lottery again. It is just paperwork. 2) Is true and it is a big issue. It is sad to see educated spouses wasting their time here in the US

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you were born in Northern Ireland, you are eligible to apply for the Diversity Visa lottery, if you want to try that route. 'Winning' nets you a green card (yes, this is a real thing; the US immigration system is crazy). There's a low chance of success - looks like 1.25-2% for Europeans, according to Wikipedia.

[https://www.dvlottery.state.gov](https://www.dvlottery.state.gov) [http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/dive...](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/diversity- visa/entry.html) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa)

Britons born in other parts of the UK are not eligible.

The next lottery takes place next year, applications can be made from October. The only qualifications needed, other than nationality, are a high school education and two years work experience ([http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/dive...](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/immigrate/diversity- visa/if-you-are-selected/confirm-your-qualifications.html)).

</comment><comment><USER10> Question: How do "free market" proponents support the free flow of (financial) capital across borders but not the free flow of (human) capital across borders?

I appreciate any insight/references regarding this topic.

EDIT: I know this is a loaded question but I think it hits to the heart of this immigration issue. I trust there are many smart (and civil) members of this community from across the politecon spectrum who could provide more insight on this or related debates.

<comment><USER11> What free market proponents are in favor of free trade but against free immigration? In my experience part of the libertarian ethos is about opening up immigration.

The only way I can imagine a free-market proponent who is in favor of free trade holding consistent beliefs which are also against immigration is if they are for immigration from a trade perspective, but against it on some other grounds such as national defense or national identity. You can imagine that the justification for at least the national defense reasoning is that if you let in a lot of people, you'll end up allowing some sort of fifth column or something to develop in the heart of the nation. Frankly, I don't buy _any_ of the objections I've seen to basically unlimited immigration, but there are at least some that are intellectually consistent with a free-market position.

You can find a laundry list of anti-immigration positions (many of which are at least intellectually consistent with a free market philosophy), alongside their specific refutations over at [http://openborders.info](http://openborders.info)

<comment><USER10> Thanks, [http://openborders.info](http://openborders.info) looks like a great starting point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> You could always try for the O-1 visa. When everything else failed me, that's the route I went. I've now obtained an O-1 twice. It costs more, and the requirements are more stringent; but if you are able to get it, it's extremely efficient. The entire process only takes ~a month.

<comment><USER13> Hey! I'm actually going down this route as well. I'd love more information and maybe chat if you have a few minutes. Any chance you could shoot me an email? I'm firstname.lastname@example.com.

<comment><USER14> Guys, don't go private. Do request and share in the comments please :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment> juggling-engine I'm in the exact same situation. I wasn't selected for the H1-B lottery twice in a row, and have to leave after seven years in the US. Oh well, I hear Vancouver is nice :)

<comment><USER7> Are H-1B extensions also subject to lottery?

<comment><USER15> No, but there is a 6-year limit to being under the H-1B status.

<comment><USER16> Can't it be extended for a year at a time as long as a permanent residency application is pending?

<comment> juggling-engine I think so, but you can't apply for permanent residence if you came to the US to study. You have to first transition to a diffenrent visa status, usually H1-B. However if, for example, the cap has been full since you graduated college...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Why not an L1 if you have a job with the same company? Seems relatively easy.

</comment><comment><USER18> Man, I would _love_ to work in some other country than the US, but getting approval to work elsewhere is apparently harder than getting approval for people elsewhere to get approval to work here.

</comment><comment><USER19> Why isn't the author getting another L-1 Visa? Since his company has a base in SF and Belfast, that should be possible, right?

<comment><USER20> L-1 visas are non-immigrant visas, and they require certain periods of absence from America in order to renew them, as well as lengths of employment at the company before you are eligible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm not sure this is particularly interesting for Hacker News?

Not trying to troll, and I apologize if I'm way off the mark on this. I don't intend to cause offence.

<comment><USER22> Hi! thanks for contributing to Hacker News.

If you don't think an article is HN-material, please use the "flag" link on the post, rather than posting a comment to that effect. You may not see the flag link if you don't have a high enough Karma score yet.

Personally, I've seen advanced discussion on US visas on here before, and I would assume that this would be of interest to many in this community.

<comment><USER21> Thank you for the welcome. :-)

It's not really an advanced discussion or even jumping off point. It's just one person saying they don't live in the US anymore.

And yah, I don't have enough karma. Though it appears I lost a point for positing my original comment. :-) C'est la vie.

<comment><USER23> It's not an 'advanced discussion' in terms of technology but we have to face the fact that there are many people who work here in the States and _want_ to work in the states that get hampered by immigration rules. My girlfriend is working on her PhD in CS and has faced huge uphill battles to get into for internships simply because of where she's from. She just wants to work on tech, but the hurdles she has to go through are ridiculous compared to what citizens or even immigrants from other countries have to face.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


ColorMe – Visualize the CSS Color Function - <AUTHOR> https://colorme.io <comment><USER2> cool tool! better than [http://jim-nielsen.com/sassme/](http://jim- nielsen.com/sassme/)</comment>


The Rise of the Fitness Creator - <AUTHOR> https://insider.fitt.co/the-rise-of-the-fitness-creator/ <comment><AUTHOR> As consumer habits shift, and new digital tools emerge, the rise of the fitness creator could be more disruptive to the industry than Peloton.</comment>


LazyDocker – A Simple GUI for Docker - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/jesseduffield/lazydocker/ <comment><USER2> Previous submission a day ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315973](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20315973)</comment>


Liwe: Using smartphones as WebApps controllers, without the pain - <AUTHOR> http://liwe.co/ <comment><AUTHOR> There a live demo available on [http://liwe.github.io/app-circular- menu](http://liwe.github.io/app-circular-menu)

This project is still on beta and unstable but I would love to have developers to play with it and get their feedback and see what new features they would like. This is just a side project for me, under MIT license, but without users it has no reason to live.</comment>


The only foster parent in LA County who takes in terminally ill children - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/giving-matters-notes-from-gofundme/he-restored-my-faith-in-humanity-8d40288caadc <comment><USER2> Detailed L.A. Times article on Bzeek from earlier in the year, 145+ points:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13638084](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13638084)</comment>


Cash Flow Management - <AUTHOR> http://pulseapp.com/ <comment><USER2> User review:

I've used PulseApp now since maybe shortly after it ended beta and went public and it's been a TREMENDOUS help. It's less of an accounting tool per se and more of a forecasting tool. It's helped me greatly when I wanted to save money for vacations and needed a very quick way to plug in all of my income and expenses and see where I would be in three months.

And it's just good for general budgeting, especially since they recently added a feature to add recurring items, and set their frequency rates. Before you had to enter each income and expense manually as they happened.

I refer it to everyone.

</comment><comment><USER3> Looks nice. I'm interested. Design is very similar to <http://www.campaignmonitor.com/> though. C'mon, guys.

<comment><USER4> You're kidding, right? The designs are both similarly generic (not a bad thing). How could you possibly attribute a design like this to any one site?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It seems a very simple app, I like it. Some questions:

-Is it really useful?.

-What are the advantages comparing to apps like outright?

-Do you know any app like this one but Open Source?.</comment>


Audio Tour App Detour Steers You Away from the Typical Tourist Traps - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2014/07/30/detour/

<comment><USER2> Nice concept, i've always wanted something like this, but here in south america and I suppose everywhere in the world, unless you speak the local language, for a tourist is pretty hard to avoid these traps and get to hang out with the locals.

Maybe the app will take the wikipedia route and let the people share their tours.

<comment><USER3> User driven content on something like this seems like it would pretty quickly lead to routes popping up which lead the users to the author's "not a tourist- trap" restaurant or store.

<comment><USER4> Maybe with some voting and metamod supervision...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> More good info from Andrew's blog: [http://smandrew.com/post/93311039628/my- new-company](http://smandrew.com/post/93311039628/my-new-company)

"We have traditional destinations, like Fisherman's Wharf, but we found a fisherman who has worked there for 40 years to guide you through the working pier and experience a side of the Wharf that tourists rarely see. We're also producing Detours in seemingly nondescript places, like Western Addition, or a walk through Bayview, on which you learn about San Francisco's ambitious goal to recycle or reuse every single item we 'throw away,' as you walk from the aisles of a grocery store to the pier where container ships pick up bundles of plastic and take them to China."

</comment><comment><USER6> My wife and I used an app similar to this on our honeymoon in Hawaii. We had the option of paying $300 for a guided tour, or paying $5 for an app and going our own pace. The app made that day one of the highlights of the trip.

<comment><USER7> That sounds pretty cool! Do you happen to remember the name of this app?

<comment><USER6> The one we used was called "Road to Hana GPS Driving Tour," but it looks like there's a long list of them under the GPS Tour Guide name.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Maybe I missed it, but does it require a data connection? Overseas, a lot of tourists aren't going to have internet outside of their hotel.

<comment><USER9> No, there will be an offline mode for our open launch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This looks great - I was just in Italy for several and wishing for something like this, completely in shock that it doesn't exist yet.

I can't see any way to sign up for notifications when it's ready - or even a company website. I guess I'll just hope I come across it when it's fully baked.

<comment><USER9> Hi - if you go to www.detour.com you should be able to add your name to the notification (early access) email list.

<comment><USER11> Hey Andrew...another direction you, Yishai, etc. should / can go would be subject areas. I would imagine culinary/food tours would be great in the areas you guys are targeting. They could also be kept pretty fresh as restaurants/bakeries/breweries, etc. wax and wane.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I've been working on a similar app called lamp @ [http://ilikelamp.com](http://ilikelamp.com)

</comment><comment><USER13> This is great. I love the idea of the salty old fisherman but would also love to see comedians, artists and amateur historians.

Ricky Gervais' tour of the Vatican, Louis CK's tour of Brooklyn. Rev share for the artists.

<comment><USER14> Louis CK is from Mass and lives in Manhattan, so his Brooklyn tour is probably not what you're looking for.</comment></comment>


Billionaire Michael Bloomberg: When choosing a job, prioritize this over salary - <AUTHOR> http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/22/michael-bloomberg-when-choosing-a-job-prioritize-this-over-salary.html <comment><USER2> Clickbait title. "Don't take a job based on salary, [Michael Bloomberg] says, but on how much you think you can grow at a company."</comment>


Looking for a tech partner - <AUTHOR> I need help building this app and I'm in need of a tech partner to help and partner up with my startup <comment><USER2> If you want to succeed your going to need to put more effort in here. Describe it. What are you looking for. What do you bring to the table. Everybody has ideas, hows yours special.

<comment><USER3> in reality, nobody's idea is special-- only the ability to execute is special.

for most people in the tech world, this means you either have to have tech skills, money, or connections.

all 3 are pretty much important for b2b, but for b2c maybe connections are not necessary.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> what type of application you want to build? Probably can PM and we could see what we probably could work together. I am from Malaysia anyway.</comment>


Leaving a hot startup after 6 months - stupid idea? - <AUTHOR>

I graduated at the top of my class from a top CS school this May.  Right after graduating I started working at a really hot startup.
I hate work, even though things couldn't be going better for the company.  A big part of me wants to quit.  (I'd join another startup or a big tech company)
Is this a stupid thing to do?
Reasons I want to leave: - I'm not gelling with the founder.  I hardly ever dislike people, but I just don't get along  with the founder.  (I work directly with the founder)
- I'm not sold on our product.  Everyone else on the team seems to see magic in what we're building, I don't.
- The standard workweek at the company is 90+ hours.  That's more than I'd prefer.
- The work isn't technically challenging.
Reasons I want to stay: + My co-workers are crazy awesome.  We get along great, and I have utmost respect for how smart everyone else is.
+ I don't want to be a quitter.  I feel like I signed up for something, and I don't like what I think leaving says about me.
+ The startup will probably do really well (mostly because everyone else in the market is so bad).
+ The startup is very well connected.  Staying part of the company's network will probably be beneficial to me. <comment><USER2> The minuses you list far outweigh the pluses.

\- If the work is not challenging, it will not be very useful on your resume anyway.

\- The network that is important is your personal connections to coworkers - if you are not directly interacting with the people the startup is connected with (I assume you mean, who are investing in it), you might as well not exist, you are another faceless programmer that is growing their investment.

\- Having a standard workweek of 90+ hours is only worth it if it's your own startup, or you are enjoying the work and are gaining other benefits from it (ie, learning fascinating new skills, building strong relationships, or some other benefit other than money). I would highly advise disregarding your stock options altogether - if they ever amount to anything, it will be a nice surprise, but counting as a direct benefit is not sensible when they will, as with most startups, never amount to anything significant compared to the amount of time and energy you invest. If you burn your energy on a product and company you do not believe in, doing work that is not mentally rewarding, you will eventually burn out.

\- if you are not sold on the product, and the product is not technically challenging, neither will you produce your best work, nor will you learn much from building it. You can either

A) create your own skunkworks in the company, and find ways to make product more interesting to yourself by designing, prototyping, and proposing new features that _are_ technically challenging and give product what it lacks. This only makes sense if you believe that the company will appreciate your efforts, and that the product can be salvaged.

B) Find something else you can learn while at the company - better project management skills, pair programming so you can learn from other developers how they think and use their tools, learning how to manage people, learning how to talk to investors and network, etc...

C) If you cannot find anything else you can learn while you are at the company, quit. Good developers are hard to find right now, you should have little trouble finding other work.

<comment><USER2> And finally, on being a quitter - you will not be seen as a quitter by people who care about your well being if you communicate the situation clearly. The people who may try to shame you as a quitter, will be people who will benefit from you not quitting. People who actually care about you will understand that you need to do what is best for your evolution as a programmer and human being. You have to watch out for your own best benefit. The company, especially if it is full of smart people as you say it is, will survive without you just fine. Depending on the founders, the board of directors, and the investors, it will also, without a qualm, throw you under the bus if that is beneficial to them, especially if you already do not get along with the founder. This is not to say that all companies/founders/directors are evil, but you have to be aware of the risk/benefit and judge it rationally, rather than sacrificing your own well-being, your irreplaceable time, and your energy on a company that does not appreciate it, nor give you a fair exchange mentally or financially.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I have often been in situations like this one. I have always found it easiest to just give-up and leave - quit - pack your bags. Yet, after making such a mistake once, I have realized that it is not the right approach. The ideal approach is to give it _one_more_try_.

So my advice to you: If you want to leave the firm because you don't get along with the founder -> try to talk it out with him. Often the best solution is to have an honest discussion and see if you can resolve your differences. If after you have your discussion with the founder you still are unable to "gel" - leave, its not worth your while to waste your life in an environment that you're not happy in.

<comment><USER4> Agree this is the best approach.

But a word of warning on another line... don't be tempted to discuss your grievance with colleagues, no matter how much you like or trust them, talking down something is like a virus: it might get infectious, and the worst is that people start to see you as not really buying in to the whole project. Both are not good outcomes.

Think about it another way too, does it matter if you don't get it? It's not your idea anyway, but you can help make it great and gain experience from that. It'll help you when it comes to making your own thing work - which I feel is probably what you want to do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> You are talking to the wrong people. You need to be discussing exactly what you've just said here with your boss / founder.

Explain the good parts and the bad parts. Ask for guidance and explain you are new to all this.

<comment><USER6> Telling your boss you don't like your job isn't a great plan. Your boss' job is to produce results, not be your therapist. If you are prepared to leave your job, then maybe being candid with the boss could be useful, but I wouldn't recommend it.

<comment><USER5> What you just said doesnt make sense.

Aim of boss = to get results.

To get results boss is therapist for a short time.

Boss gets results.

A good (smart) boss would appreciate you taking the time to talk to him/her. Maybe you wouldnt say - 'I dont like my job' but you could phrase it better. As I said - mention both the good and bad parts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I had a really bad experience with a startup and attribute it to not getting along with one of the founders and trying to stick it out despite that. When it comes down to it, people just naturally treat their friends very well and look out for them, but people they don't like tend to get taken advantage of or simply forgotten unless they have leverage or clout to prevent it.

The success chance was similar: they had a top ranking spot in an app store, which is tough to lose no matter what you or competitors do, and generates enormous traffic. You can use the traffic to promote other apps your company makes and give them a terrific advantage too. That said, they were moving away from the employees' personal interests just to get more users in the future. We weren't solving our own problem any more which makes things less fun. The founders would often agree to compromises on features in public meetings and then cancel them privately after.

If you and the founder aren't getting along, it may be better for you, the founder, the company, and your relationship with it and its network to just leave early while there are still some good feelings all around. Leaving early you can leave as a good coworker who just moved on to another opportunity. Leaving later you might be the stereotypical disgruntled coworker. This reasoning inverts some of your pluses.

Looking back on it, the things I stuck through were ridiculous: they often forgot to pay me or got the amount wrong (always too low, never too high of course), didn't come through on agreed benefits like a paid gym membership (I took over paying for months when they randomly stopped, then it took a dozen emails and a meeting where they tried to get out of it when I asked them to pay any amount at all), kept scheduling construction on the weekend without putting it on the team calendar after agreeing not to, and one final nail in the coffin re equity.

They asked me to take more equity instead of cash for pay, I agreed if they'd do some paperwork things I needed, like changing my address to a house in a nearby state I moved to with my wife - I needed that for our immigration case. They were happy to pay me less cash and did so, but they never updated the address (probably didn't want to pay the accountant for the change and different state taxes) and claimed I was accusing them of negligence when I brought it up instead of fixing it.

As a developer, is was easy to find work once I left where no one pulled any bullshit and I could just concentrate on getting my job done. Should have just done that when they first started playing fast and lose with the pay checks instead of getting involved in some sort of adversarial relationship.

</comment><comment><USER8> The choice isn't simply 'stay or go'. Talk to the rest of the team. Tell them what you're feeling (that you're not happy, _not_ that you're considering leaving). There's a good chance that there's work to be done that you could focus on that you will find challenging, or that there's something you can do to mitigate the hours you're putting in, or simply that talking it through might reignite the passion you (presumably) had at the beginning.

Plus, don't fall into the trap of thinking the grass will be greener somewhere else. This is your first job since graduating. You don't have much experience yet. Take it from me, almost every job is the same. It's actually easier to tailor your existing job to be something you like than it is finding a job that will suit you better. (Caveat: This is true of everything bar the number of hours you're working.)

</comment><comment><USER9> Don't Quit. 6 months is just too short of a time. No matter what you do afterwards it will always leave a question mark why you left so early, in particular when the start up has so much traction. That the founder sucks is too bad. However, to get along with people on a professional basis is way different than getting along with them on a private basis. Think of the army. Imagine people would quit just because they dont get along with the General. Persevere and try to stay at least a year...

</comment><comment><USER10> I think "not gelling with the founder" isn't a good reason to leave. Working with people that you don't particularly like is part of what we call "professionalism". As long as your boss is respectful and doesn't constantly underestimate (or overestimate) your skills, it's OK.

On the other hand, working 90+ hours in a company that's not yours is crazy. 15h/day, 6 days a week? Or 12/day, every day? It's simply not worth the downside in health and missed opportunities.

<comment><USER11> I feel your "professionalism" may be more applicable to larger, corporate environments.

With a small team size accompanying early startups, I personally feel having the core people click is extremely important.

I of course don't know what number hire the poster was to the startup nor do I know how long the startup has been around, so perhaps the startup is past the "honeymoon" period.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> If this is your first real job, then I very strongly recommend that you stay. 6 months is a very short period of time to take this call. Give it at least 6 more months. Righ out of college, sometimes 6 months can feel like a really long time especially if you are doing 90 hours weeks. In another few months, perhaps the workload would reduce, some of your options would vest and you would feel that you have given it a fair chance before you finally take your decision!

<comment><USER13> It depends how long til your options would vest, if its more than another 6 months, I strongly recommend you consider looking for another position, even with only 6 months experience you can find another job, especially after having been working 90 hr weeks

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Just leave, find another job, working 90 hours a week is ridiculous unless you stand to make a large amount of money based on the performance of the company.

</comment><comment><USER14> There is nothing more important than liking what you do. I think it's time for you to start looking for a new job

</comment><comment><USER15> No. Just be honest.</comment>