Frozen Alive - <AUTHOR> https://www.outsideonline.com/2152131/freezing-death <comment><USER2> We rescued a group (mother, son, three of his friends) a three weeks ago on California's highway 4. It was at night after all the ski traffic was gone; they didn't understand their car well enough to know why it had failed (they'd even noticed the transmission fluid leaking out before they set off), no shovel, no cold gear beyond ski parkas, not even water. The were also astonished that there was no phone service (in fact none for another 20 miles).

On one hand I'm glad technology has developed such that people can drive around without knowing to check fluids, how to build a shelter, etc. On the other hand I see people at the edges of the wilderness who plainly haven't the faintest idea what is going on (and in some cases how much danger they are in).

Typically I don't butt in. In this case when we stopped to see if they needed help they said "no" but my GF insisted on getting out and finding out that yes, they wanted help but didn't want to impose. (they day before she stopped to make sure we found the owner of a stray dog in the street, that turned out to have been lost. She's a good influence on me).

</comment><comment><USER3> > In fact, many hypothermia victims die each year in the process of being > rescued. In "rewarming shock," the constricted capillaries reopen almost all > at once, causing a sudden drop in blood pressure.

Interesting, it's like your body is made of independent organs and systems that don't orchestrate very well. Each part trying to survive on its own make the worst for the whole. Come to think about it, seems that some health problems are caused because some part of your body don't send or receive the proper signals, hormones and so on.

<comment><USER4> Distributed systems are hard, especially with poorly documented inter-system protocols for coordination!

<comment><USER5> What documentation? The only info they've got is transferred in the transport payload.

<comment><USER6> Just read the code.

<comment><USER7> Ok, yeah, but we still don't completely understand all the features of the equally undocumented compiler, standard library, and OS kernel.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is at least a few years old, I remember reading it when the family was stuck in the snow in the southern Oregon mountains.

Rule #1. Don't ever leave the car and setoff overland.

<comment><USER9> I remember reading this in Wired magazine several years ago. Afterwards, I put together a little survival pack in each of my car's trunks including a space blanket, hand-crank phone charger, and other items.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> As someone who grew up and lives in Manitoba, some of this rings false. The temperature was described as -35F (-34C). People that wander away from their cars inadequately dressed for that sort of condition only technically die of hypothermia. They mostly die of the complications of having their extremities frozen. They don't tend to have enough time to go though the stages of hypothermia. There would be no time to drift off to crazy land, they would know things were going wrong right away.

In the same vein, if they don't have a scarf or other face protection (which for some reason was the case for the skier in the article) and there was any wind they will immediately freeze their face. This can take less than a minute. This is incredibly painful and could be expected to cause pretty much anyone to get back in the car.

</comment><comment><USER11> I always keep a a pair of sleeping bags and a shovel in the car when driving in the winter.

If you can't dig yourself out, i think it's safer to say warm in your car.

Also a candle burning in the car (crack open a window, extinguish before falling asleep!) can raise the temps inside the car.

<comment><USER12> The candle idea is dubious at best and dangerous at worst.

Cars are very poor insulators, being made of single layer glass, steel and aluminum.

Any temperature rise you'll get out of a _candle_ (in reality almost negligible over the T. rise from your body heat) will be gone within minutes of you extinguishing it.

<comment><USER13> [https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/3389/how- much-h...](https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/3389/how-much-heat- can-a-candle-lantern-provide-while-winter-camping)

<comment><USER12> Thanks. I haven't gone through all the answers, but it looks like most of them confirm my original post, that it isn't worth it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is this based on a true story?

<comment><USER7> It reads like a pastiche of many true stories. One of the first things that hypothermia does is impair your ability to think rationally.

Basically, a person makes _two_ marginally unwise decisions in a row, the situation snowballs from there, and the person winds up dead or on the brink of death. Occasionally, the victim has a stupid idea that actually warms them back up a bit, and can claw their way back from there.

In this particular story, the first unwise decision was to leave home at all, and the second was to leave the car. Everything that follows is cold brain no thinky good; unsmart.

This is why government spokespeople have to tell everyone to stay home before every predictable winter storm. Cold people are even stupider than normal, and stupid people are a burden on local emergency services.</comment></comment>


Kickstarter – Bragi – The Dash delivered - <AUTHOR> https://imgur.com/a/dhggU <comment><AUTHOR> I was one of the people that decided to fund the project on kickstarter. It might have taken a while, but they have finally delivered, and the build quality is right there with Apple devices.

This is mostly for the people that commented in the wired post that the project looked like vapoware, but they have done an amazing job in building the product.</comment>


Show HN: Sail boat simulation – try to sail into the wind - <AUTHOR> http://imakesnowflakes.com/fun/sail.html <comment><USER2> A little improvement in the graphics would make this much more intuitive.

#1) Which is the front end of the boat? Not that hard to have a pointed end and a not pointy end.

#2) The sail shouldn't go all the way around, nor rotate around its center. If you are approximating something like a Laser it can go through about a 210 degree arc. Other boats, more like 120-160 degrees.

#3) So the wind is coming from the left? Note that almost all things generally show the fluids as streamlines, so at first glance it seemed to me that the wind was coming from the top and the boat was moving to the left.

#4) It's missing the force vector from the boat in the water. That's what really explains what is going on. The force vectors don't add up to the motion shown.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great suggestions.

>It's missing the force vector from the boat in the water. That's what really explains what is going on. The force vectors don't add up to the motion shown.

Yes. You see, I couldn't really isolate that vector. What I am doing is taking the force vector on the sail and taking the projection of it in the direction that the boat is facing. Actually, the forward force comes from the boat trying to move in the direction of the force of the sail. But ends up moving a bit forward because the keel is in a slanted direction to that movement. So even if I show that vector, the viewer probably wont still have any idea regarding where it came from.

<comment><USER3> This is a neat idea, but it's super confusing without the concept of the sail's curvature.

AFAIK, sails work like airplane wings (not like socks), creating lift on the convex surface by virtue of faster moving air and lower pressure. Perhaps your model assumes the same, but it's not clear from the way the sail is drawn, and it looks like sailing down wind is just as fast as sailing somewhat across the wind, which is in fact the fastest way to sail.

<comment><USER4> Airplane wings don't work like that; it's a common myth and does not really make sense. Wings generate lift by a rather straightforward utilization of Newton's third law of motion: they deflect air downward. Sails work the same way: they deflect air sideways.

[http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/how-wings-really- work](http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/how-wings-really-work)

<comment><USER5> Video that (i think) explains it better: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFO4PBolwFg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFO4PBolwFg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For those of you stating you'd like something a bit more realistic, try:

[http://www.thepirateking.com/ships/sail_simulator.htm](http://www.thepirateking.com/ships/sail_simulator.htm)

@imakesnowflake, great work btw.

<comment><USER7> This isn't working for me (just hangs on Loading..) using up to date Chrome on OSX. Anyone else having better luck?

<comment><USER8> Works for me.

Maxxed out 9.25 knots at close haul at 33 knots of wind.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is a good start, but the physics of sailing is much more complex than presented in your app. For instance, a sailboat is not powered by the wind pushing on the sail.

It works like this. The wind is split by the leading edge of the sail (the mast, headstay, or luff). It is split into two turbulent streams, one on each side of the sail. One stream has slightly less force on the sail so the sail begins to move in that direction. As the flow stabilizes over that side, the wind moves faster on that side than on the turbulent side. This creates lift like an airplane wing. So the wind is actually pulling the sail, not pushing it.

Lift on the sail causes the boat to heel (lean over). Some of the lifting force is counterbalanced by the keel underwater keeping the boat upright. The remainder of the force pushes the boat downwind. However, the flat keel underwater prevents the boat from sliding downwind, with the result that the boat is forced forward.

I recommend you read this book for your next version:

[http://www.amazon.com/Sail-Power-Complete-Guide- Handling/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Sail-Power-Complete-Guide- Handling/dp/0394727150)

<comment><USER10> This is the strangest folk non-explanation of lift I've ever encountered.

> So the wind is actually pulling the sail, not pushing it.

A handy distillation of fluid dynamics is, "Just like you can't push string, you can't suck fluids." That is, fluids don't resist in tension except in very particular very dynamic conditions that are wholly outside of the realms where our intuitions are developed. It looks like you've inadvertently modified the popular "Bernoulli's Principle" theory of lift, which was wrong even before you modified it.

There's no real point in doing anything like a rebuttal, so let me do the best I can, instead, to explain how lift is actually developed and how that applies to the case of a sailing vessel.

The fundamental thing that makes lift possible is the Kutta condition. This states that a real fluid has to leave a cusp in the direction that the cusp faces. There are complicated reasons for this having to do with velocity gradients, viscosity, radius of curvature of the flow, and even relativity, but the layperson can observe, feel, or take on faith that a flow leaves an edge in a direction parallel to the edge. This fact literally turns the flow and results in lift. (Historically and physically, we say that the Kutta condition resolves D'Lambert's Paradox via the Kutta-Jukowski theory of lift, if you want some keywords to look up more information.)

So, the direction of the trailing edge of the flow turns the flow. There are two ways that we can examine the result of this: momentum or pressure. It turns out that they give the exact same result for the lift of an airfoil, but are "intuitive" in different ways. The momentum theory just says, "Lift is just a force that is accounted for by the mass of the air that you're pushing aside. This is what you typically might call 'downwash'," but a bit more mathematically. The pressure theory says, "Look, that's all fine, but that force is experienced as a pressure distribution on a surface, because the only part of the wing that's in the flow is the surface. Let's keep track of (integrate) the pressure over the surface and see what the resulting forces are," but also a bit more mathematically.

So, take your pick of intuitions: Imagine a wing throwing air or fluid aside, or imagine it experiencing a pressure difference from top to bottom. They're both true, and are just different ways of accounting for the same phenomenon, different procedures for accounting for forces and masses as they interact with "control volumes," as engineers and physicists like to say. And remember that both intuitive explanations are driven by the Kutta condition, which is far more interesting, I think, than the erroneous Bernoulli explanation.

So, that's lift. I turn a flow and I get a reaction force. Peachy. How does it apply to sailboats?

Other than the buoyancy force and gravity, every force that we care about on a sailboat is due to the operation of a foil (hydrofoil or airfoil) within a fluid (water or air). The hull of the boat, the rudder, and the keel act like wings of (typically very low) efficiency. Their total lift acts to resist the downwind drift of the boat in the water. The sail acts as a wing. Depending on the point of sail, the lift of the wing acts more or less, literally, in the direction of travel of the boat. (Close to the wind, the majority of the lift is actually wasted in heeling the boat over and trying to slide it downwind.)

I know I said that a rebuttal would be unproductive, but there are a few things I suddenly can't resist.

> However, the flat keel underwater prevents the boat from sliding downwind, > with the result that the boat is forced forward.

The "flat keel" is a wing. It prevents this "slide" via lift. It's also not helpful to split the analysis into 'forces' and 'constraints'. The keel produces lift that is a fore that contributes to the balance of forces on the vessel, resulting in motion.

> [The wind] is split into two turbulent streams, one on each side of the > sail.

Turbulence is a complete red herring, here. Turbulence has nothing to do with lift (other than causing stalls and complicating the analysis).

> Some of the lifting force is counterbalanced by the keel underwater keeping > the boat upright.

Well...the center of mass of the entire boat levered, as it is, upwind of the center of buoyancy, produces a moment that counteracts the moment of the sail's lift.

> For instance, a sailboat is not powered by the wind pushing on the sail.

It kind of really is. It's just more complicated because analyzing fluids requires that we analyze continua, and not just discrete particles. In the end, though, sailboats sail because they exchange momentum with the atmosphere and the water through distributed forces, or pressures.

<comment><USER9> I appreciate your explanation. I'm a sailor, not a PhD in fluid mechanics. All I know about the physics of sailing I learned in the first couple of chapters in the book I cited, which I think my post succinctly summarizes.

So, if I understand you correctly, to put it into one sentence for my friends at the club, air flows along the curved sail which, through pressure differences or momentum, turns the direction of the wind, and the opposing force of the turn causes lift?

My other question is, how does a symmetrical keel then cause lift? Thanks.

<comment><USER10> Any frustration that shows in my reply is not particular to you. It's just that folk ideas about fluids insinuate themselves everywhere with sometimes irritating confidence. (For example, the book you cite!)

You're right about the sail turning the flow. However, the "curve" of the sail is not the only way to turn a flow. In the keel's case, it sees an angle of attack to the flow, and this causes lift. Imagine, for a moment, that the boat isn't heeled over, and we're looking down on the boat as it moves through the water. The bow of the boat, when pointing, points a few degrees upwind of the direction of travel of the boat relative to the water. We go back to the Kutta condition to see that the flow has to turn to point directly off the trailing edge of the keel and see that water is being "thrown" to leeward.

It's a little more complicated than that, even, for keels, especially for full keels. They're still "throwing water," but they're solidly "low aspect ratio" and finite wing effects dominate: Lower lift, higher drag, higher stall angle, softer stalls, attached vortices, and so on. All sorts of fun. There are reasons that race boats tend to have fin keels and daggerboards! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Cool, but it's odd that the sail rotates around its own center point. Probably would be more realistic to have it rotate around a mast at the leading edge.

I'd also love to see centerboard or keel forces since that's what makes the boat go forward.

<comment><USER12> This makes it a square rigged boat, which is the traditional rig used by old sailships, and most traditional sailboats. That rigtype makes it hard (impossible really) to go up against the wind with a small angle, and this simulation is quite realistic in that respect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This would be more compelling and educational if the controls mapped closer to how the controls you have available on a traditional sailboat work: * Rudder position controls rate of rotation, not absolute heading, and doesn't work if you're not making way * Main sheet (sail control) just controls the maximum amount the sail can deviate from the center of the boat, not its absolute angle relative to the boat (and not which side of the centerline it is on.)

<comment><USER8> Education-wise I think would this can be quite useful to train for man overboard situations.

<comment><USER13> I have to disagree... in particular, the point of reference (absolute) is also all wrong. It's not going to teach you much about how to react to a man-over. There really isn't much substitute for actual drills at sea to simulate the real stress, surprise and difficulty of a MO where you don't have time to switch over to your engine. Anyone who is skippering (and most crew) should be able to handle an MO properly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> More info here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail#Close_hauled](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_of_sail#Close_hauled)

Thanks for making this. As a teenager I used to sail competitively and this brings good memories. Sailing close hauled under decent wind was incredibly fun.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are welcome and thanks for the link. Really glad that you liked it.. )

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Very neat. I was able to confirm and visualize my intuition on how sailboats work.

It reminds me of a car parking simulator [1] I made a while ago.

[1] [https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8554242/dmitri/projects/...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8554242/dmitri/projects/CarSim/CarSim.html)

<comment><USER16> Oh, I was hoping for some crash effects!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I think keyboard controls would make this easier to tack/navigate. Left and right to rotate boat and up down for sail. I could see this being a cool racing game with obstacles and changing wind direction. Thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER18> I need some time to figure it out, but the little blue dots are the "air molecules". They bounce against the sail!

I first thought that they were the sea waves, of a nice visual effect, but they are a part of the simulation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, every time one of those hit the 'sail' the direction and magnitude of the force it imparts on the sail is calculated. It is not really needed, as one could just calculate it from the strength and direction of wind in relation to the sail, and setting that they hit the sail at some constant rate. I decided to render it so that it gives some intuition regarding the forces that are acting on the sail.

<comment><USER19> I like that it shows the air which has hit the sail and then spilled off, or "dirty" air. It's a good indication of why you don't want to be sailing behind a boat you are trying to catch!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Thank you for illustrating my favorite fact about sailing: that the fastest speed at which a sailboat can sail is actually upwind.

I learned this from an awesome book, no doubt one that many on HN have heard of, Thinking Physics, by Lewis Carroll Epstein that is worth getting, especially if you have kids and they don't already know basic physics.

<comment><USER21> This depends entirely on the sail plan of the ship in question.

An AC-72 might be fastest upwind, but a square-rigged ship definitely isn't.

<comment><USER22> Even AC72s are fastest a ways off true because of how far forward it drags your apparent angle.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Very nice. You should give the boat a cat-rig like a laser to remove the mast in the middle.

You may want to check out the guys at SailX. They are focusing on the simulation of sailboat racing, but they needs some of the same principles that you are trying to simulate. [http://www.sailx.com/](http://www.sailx.com/)

For instead of sail-power complete guide, take a look at Aero-Hydrodynamics and the Performance of Sailing Yachts. This is a fun tech-read. [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071629106/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_d...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071629106/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687562&pf_rd_s=lpo- top- stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1888671181&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1W6NHC5W3JX6EN8NTN56)

To add to the discussion on sailing faster than the wind, I present Blackbird - which was a land yacht made to sail faster than the wind....DDW! The final design was able to sail 2x the speed of the wind.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_(land_yacht)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackbird_\(land_yacht\))

</comment><comment><USER24> Nice one, I love little programs like this that teach visitors something.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Woah, a little trip down memory lane... This post made me think of this: [http://www.mobygames.com/game/american-challenge-a- sailing-s...](http://www.mobygames.com/game/american-challenge-a-sailing- simulation)

This was actually quite a reasonable sailing simulator if I remember correctly. Good enough that when I finally got a chance to sail for real a few years later, I knew what I needed to be doing in terms of positioning sails to obtain various points of sail. Of course, navigating without an overhead map being available, and knowing about ropes were two things that I still had to learn the old-fashioned way :)

</comment><comment><USER26> Nice mechanics. However, it seems that you only take the drift into account where the physics behind sailing in these situation is the lift apply to the sail (which behaves like a wind)

</comment><comment><USER27> My solar-sailing sim is similarly simple: [http://wry.me/t/gravity/gravity.html](http://wry.me/t/gravity/gravity.html)

</comment><comment><USER28> This seems wrong. The boat never moves when Sail Angle is 0. Boat Angles of 40 and 90 should cause motion with a Sail Angle of 0, but they don't.

<comment><AUTHOR> The idea is that, the boat will have a very large drag in the direction perpendicular to the keel. When you have 0 sail angle, the force on the sail is in a direction perpendicular to the direction that the boat is facing. So the drag is very large and so it does not move. Only when the force on the sail is at an slanting angle to the keel, the 'drag reduction' comes into play and boat moves at a direction of least resistance. I know that it is not even remotely accurate, as I think sailing involves a lot of complex forces. But it is how I have modeled it and the reason why you are seeing this behavior.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Fun little sim, although a bit simplistic. Before I started sailing in real life, I used this Android app to build an understanding of sailing physics (which is quite difficult for some to understand until you see it): [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mooncoder....](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mooncoder.sailor)

</comment><comment><USER30> Very nice!

A feature idea: would be cool to have a level with "increased difficulty/realism" with just one degree of freedom - the sail. In real world you can not turn the vessel on a whim. And the next level, make the wind gusty, and make it a requirement to keep a certain speed to avoid "drowning", and you have a rather fun windsurfing-simulator game :)

<comment><AUTHOR> >In real world you can not turn the vessel on a whim..

Yes. I originally planned to let the boat turn only using the rudder (the blue line at the end of the boat). But after a while, I felt that it would make very difficult to get it working.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Novel way to approach this problem. On projects in the past I just kept a table of optimal angles (given the boat's performance characteristics) and when there is significant overlap I adjusted the velocity. This approach does a better job approximating wind though.

</comment><comment><USER32> Absolutely awesome. Makes me want to look into real sailing. Sadly season for sailing has pretty much ended -- will look into it next year then.

Thanks for sharing, would love to see any improvements toward making it more realistic (as a teaching tool for sailing or something).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thankyou!

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Fun stuff. Could you add a numeric value for the green line? That way we could see which setting get the best forward motion.

</comment><comment><USER34> took me quite a while to work out how to tack, with controls being so different to an actual sailing boat (mast pivot at centre rather than leading edge, and spinning the whole boat rather than the blue thing being the rudder.)

However, I did manage to get a small resultant to the left, so woot! :)

</comment><comment><USER35> Sail: 200

Boat: 130

beating to windward while close hauled

wish I could see the keel forces

pretty cool!

</comment><comment><USER36> It's kind of counter-intuitive that it's possible to sail against the wind.

<comment><USER37> Yep, that's why early sail designs used to be square and looked to maximise sail area vs mast and boom (or frame).

Ships can advance into the wind because of:

\- drag reduction (hull shape, keep, rudder) : sideways force translates to a diagonal forward movement

\- most importantly, lift: more than pushing the sail, the air pulls the sail sliding from the outter side of it (which is why a lot of the cloth doesn't actually suffer much forces in the middle of the sail which is what initial intuition would tell - by far the most tension happens in the corners).

If push is stronger than lift, turbulence on the other side of the sail slows down your boat rather than speeding it up. "Tell tales" stuck in strategic points of the sails allow to quickly tell if the flow is correct, and therefore the trimming is good. Boat speed, flapping and shape also show these forces.

[http://i.imgur.com/hZlb34r.gif](http://i.imgur.com/hZlb34r.gif)

[http://i.imgur.com/uypQGJJ.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/uypQGJJ.jpg)

[http://i.imgur.com/5tJLUgF.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/5tJLUgF.jpg)

I don't think there's sail shape or lift in the simulation, but I suspect that the drag is rather low or zero, which allows for some gains into the wind (but real boats do better).

<comment><AUTHOR> >I don't think there's sail shape or lift in the simulation..

No. It is a very rough simulation (I am not sure if I can even call that). It only takes into account the force of the wind 'hitting' on the sail and the 'drag reduction'.

I am not a physicist or have experience with sailing. I am just a freelance programmer (currently out of work) from India, which means I even haven't seen a real life sail boat. I made this using the stuff I got from Wikipedia and a bit of intuition. So I guess it shows.

But I have a question regarding the boat traveling faster than the wind. Isn't it due to the fact that the lift is a constant force, regardless of the speed at which the boat is traveling? But a boat that is using the force of wind hitting the sails, can only sail as fast as the wind, because at that point, there is no wind hitting the sails.

<comment><USER22> No, the lift isn't constant. As your speed increases, assuming you're not going dead downwind (very slow) so does your apparent wind speed.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_than_the_wind](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_than_the_wind)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> > _green hexagon is the boat_

Isn't the boat a pentagon?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes. it is now. It was a hexagon when I posted this. I changed it in response to this comment

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8427491](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8427491)

I have updated the page to read 'green polygon' now..)

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> That's sweet! Kinda hard to tack tho.</comment>


Ask HN: I've reversed-engineered a private API, now what? - <AUTHOR>

I'd like to discuss the ethical aspect of using a private API.
I was able to reverse-engineer a secure HTTP API of a website with over 10 million users to enable access from third-party clients (one has to authenticate with their login and password). This hack allows you to access you own data on the website, that's it, there is no malicious intent.
I have several options here:
* publish it on a popular blog and wait for the company to act on this (they probably won't be too happy) * report the vulnerability to the company, and when the fix it, publish the information
I really want to publish this hack, as it could be useful for others to learn how to reverse engineer APIs, and I also believe there is no reason why said API should be private in the first place, they should open it.
What would you do? <comment><USER2> Wow, this is a great question. Over at ProgrammableWeb, we have seen A LOT of unauthorized APIs turn up over the years. In fact, when we've discovered them and added them to our directory, we are sometimes asked (occasionally threatened) to take down our directory entry. These APIs are sometimes developed via the scrAPI route, while other times a debugger as been used to watch what a native mobile app does, while still other times, the service provider has simply divulged WAY too much in their client-side Javascript. However it was done, I agree there is a moral dilemma.

If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to report it to the company so that they can learn about how to better secure the API from your hack. I think that outweighs the efficacy of publishing the API to the public. But I guess it depends on what you're looking for; notoriety in the hacker community (you can't put that Pandora back in the box) or a reputation for discretion. Either one will get you credibility. Just in different forms.

One additional option would be to write about how you did it as sort of an instructive piece to hackers and service providers alike (perhaps anonymizing the service in the process). If this is something you are interested in doing, I would gladly pay you for the right to publish that article. Let me know.

David Berlind Editor in Chief ProgrammableWeb

</comment><comment><USER3> Where are you based?

In the EU, this isn't a problem. You're free to reverse engineer the structure of APIs/protocols/data formats to integrate third party apps with it.

Morally, I don't think there's a problem either. Heck, you could build something cool on top of it. That's what I would do.

I don't even see reverse engineering APIs as a vulnerability. A ton of APIs (i.e. used in mobile apps) can easily be reverse engineered.

</comment><comment><USER4> What is your goal? It sounds like the moment you publish, you expect the company will close the API. So you will actually be blocking third-party clients.

How about making your own third party client, but not publishing the API details until they are closed?</comment>


Weirdly broken Wi-Fi access points - <AUTHOR> http://www.kmjn.org/notes/broken_wifi_access_points.html <comment><USER2> For those who are curious, there's a bunch of reasons that contribute to why consumer wifi routers sucks ass:

1\. Wifi routers are very complicated. You need smart people at all levels of the stack to build a modern wifi router. You need people who know 802.1ac like the back side of their hand, people who know how to set up and deploy linux environments, embedded engineers for debugging OEM driver issues, networking gurus for handling the voodoo in levels 2-4 of the OSI stack, application people for rolling the user interface, cloud people for cloud support. Normally this isn't a big deal, if it wasnt for the next point

2\. The profit margins on consumer routers are complete trash. Even if you're one of the big boys with double digit market share, you're going to have a very hard time keeping a decent engineering team staffed and your marketing team staffed at the same time while still breaking even.

3\. Consumer router sales are SKU driven. There are dozens of price and performance points you have to hit to meet the demands of the consumer market. You cannot make be profitable with less than 10 actively selling SKUs. Every time you release a new SKU, it's a new opportunity for marketing to try to sell the device to brick and mortar stores that they're trying to expand into. If you aren't releasing 5-6 SKUs each year, you're going to have a very hard time keeping your router on store shelves.

4\. Since sales are SKU driven and your engineering team is probably under funded, you have the exciting problem of maintenance releases. If your company has 50 supported SKUs and you find a non-driver issue in one of them, the chances are that it affects 10 other SKUs as well, if not all of your other SKUs. Pushing that maintenance firmware to 50 SKUs could easily take 6 months of combined QA or Firmware development time. As far as your marketing department is concerned, all that time you spend on maintenance releases is time that isn't spent on making new SKUs with exciting new features.

tldr: get a business class wifi router

<comment><USER3> Are there any specific business class routers you would recommend?

<comment><USER4> I like the Ubiquiti gear. The AC lite is affordably priced. I'm also happy with the ERLite router.

<comment><USER5> The best part is the fq_codel support :-)

<comment><USER4> Unfortunately it really limits performance, to about 60 Mbps on an ERLite.

<comment><USER5> Yeah, it disables all the hardware offloading unfortunately. But if you really need it because of a slow internet connection, I guess 60Mbps is good enough.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think there's also an issue of easy diagnostic. It's extremely hard for non- tech people to assess the quality of the network; they basically have to rely on "time to open google" which is obviously a complicated metric to rely upon, and can be measured only with a manual test.

Wifi has a single quality indicator, the "signal power" which is useful but doesn't say it all (it doesn't even take SNR into account). Somebody should come up with a monitoring algorithm, possibly mixing radio stats and stability of pings, that converts into a simple indicator on the UX of all operating systems. Something like green/yellow/red. Once people know their connection is "always red with MacBooks", they will fix it; hotel managers can ask for support from suppliers, airbnbs can go to the mall where they bought the router and complain.

This would be up to the Wifi Alliance to fix, but they are the worst slow- moving committee ever seen on this planet, so I'm not holding my breath. They're probably implementing a new useless encryption algorithm that will be broken in 5 minutes and stay broken for another 5 years till they agree on something else.

<comment><USER7> If you do this, please make it a continuous scale rather than green/yellow/red. There's a big difference between "the worst that connection can get you a green" and "a really good connection".

<comment><USER8> I suggest we express it in dBs. :^)

<comment><USER9> Or an S meter - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_meter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_meter)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I wonder how many of those could be fixed by simply rebooting the router.

I've had numerous problems with my own Time Warner Cable modem/router. It'd always become pretty bad after about 3 days of operation, dropping my speed to about 2% of what it was initially. I spend months debugging the damn thing, using a custom router, swapping cables, etc, and nothing would fix it.

Until I got a timer and got it to reboot every day at 3 am (the [https://xkcd.com/1495](https://xkcd.com/1495) route) and never had the problem again.

<comment><USER11> Rebooting a router is not always an option.

Both examples are from "public" wifi where the person with the problem is unlikely to be the only user.

<comment><USER12> Probably a 5 minute downtime at 4 AM is overall preferable to a continuously unstable connection. Of course an entity like a hotel should just pony up the money for better hardware, but I could excuse that for an (Air)BnB or guest house or vacation apartment.

<comment><USER13> And for guest houses etc the default password device is often unchanged you could always login and reboot for yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Here's a theory based on a bunch of un-substantiated and un-researched facts:

Some routers do not allow traffic from IPs which are not active DHCP leases. When DHCP lease expires, they block traffic. But many routers don't enforce this.

Some routers give out super short DHCP leases - as short as 30 seconds. But the typical length is 12 or 24 hours.

A public or semi-shared wifi router is more likely to use these policies to prevent exhausting the local subnet address pool, which is typically around 254 addresses.

Mac OS X doesn't believe that renewing a DHCP lease in 30 seconds is ever really necessary, limits the renewal frequency to once per minute.

I'd check the dhcp lease time.

<comment><USER15> Are you serious? A 30 second lease is insane.

I've seen DHCP servers that TAKE 60 seconds to give a lease.

<comment><USER16> Was that the server, or the client waiting that long? THe DHCP spec requires the client to broadcast a request, then wait for a while (unspecified) and collect answers, then choose the best answer (metric unspecified).

Sometimes when I write DHCP clients I choose the metric as "fastest", then just choose the first answer and don't wait for any more. And it takes on average a few milliseconds to get a lease.

<comment><USER15> It wasn't the client, but beyond that honestly I don't know, I didn't get into the nitty gritty of it. Could have been a terrible or overloaded piece of server hardware, or maybe a network loop or something else misbehaving between the client and server.

We built a portable device that starts a DHCP client and tries to get a lease on an Ethernet plug event, and if no lease is acquired after a certain amount of time, the device assumes it has been plugged directly to a PC (or an "ad- hoc", isolated network with a switch and no router) and will kill the client and start a DHCP server itself, so you can access the device's webserver directly. I wasn't onsite, but the solution was simple - we just increased the timeout to wait for a lease before starting the server.

<comment><USER17> Depending on what switch you're plugging into, this could easily be Cisco Portfast or similar catching you out.

When the port goes active (layer 2 link) the switch inspects but doesn't forward packets to try and ensure you've not just added a loop into your ethernet network. After a minute or so, if everything looks normal, the switch then starts letting the device talk to the rest of the network.

If you don't know about it then this can be annoying at best as you seem to have a layer2 link but DHCP can seem to take an age to start working :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I wish he would drop the name of the router he's running into these issues on. I have the same exact issue with my laptop (random disconnects for 30 seconds) only on my home router, and I've been considering replacing the router with something of higher quality.

I use an ASUS 750N, which is starting to show its age faster than I expected, but otherwise services the devices in my house just fine. Except for my laptop, which is the only device I actually need to use over wifi on a regular basis.

<comment><USER19> I don't think the model is 750N, more likely that's the max speed. Probably you have the 56u or 66u. The Merlin firmware for Asus routers has really improved my experience with the ac-87u. It keeps the stock UI and fixes bugs/adds features. [https://asuswrt.lostrealm.ca](https://asuswrt.lostrealm.ca)

<comment><USER18> You're quite correct, the 750N was from memory. The actual model is an RT-N65R.

That firmware looks lovely! I will give that a whirl when I have time to dink around with it, possibly this weekend. Thanks for that!

<comment><USER19> Happy to help out :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> For what its worth some hotels have been known to intentionally degrade network performance / access to push people to the hotel supplied service. That has included screwing up people trying to stream video into their room via the network rather than buying the PPV movies that the Hotel provides. Either of these failure modes have a good chance of degrading the viewing experience of streaming video sufficiently to make it unusable.

If you are in a hospitality situation you can demand a refund on your Internet charges, or if the Internet is "free" consider asking for a discount on your bill.

That said, power line networking (the author mentioned devolo) is notoriously fraught with challenges. A company I helped start was acquired by the folks who put power line networking on the map (Tut Systems) and their were a lot of interesting interference sources they tried to mitigate. Inductive loads (motors) coming on and off was a big challenge, and places like hotels would have large fans that would circulate air through the common areas or hallways. Fluorescent lights were another noise source.

All in all it was a poor excuse for a network and everyone was amazed they got a megabit per second point to point through it reasonably reliably.

</comment><comment><USER21> My own Linksys router (I think it's a WRV200) occasionally starts to silently drop new connections until I disconnect and reconnect. If my browser has an http/2 connection open, I can continue to browse that particular site, but when I navigate to another site, the browser times out. It seems to only affect one device at a time.

Curiously, the behavior became dramatically more frequent (from once every few months to several times a week) when I moved in with family, which meant plugging it into a different modem, and adding a bunch of Windows devices to the network.

(When I move back out, I'll probably leave this router behind and get myself something that runs Tomato.)

<comment><USER22> That sounds like the NAT table has filled up.

Incidentally, this is often the cause of problems with "routers" that people experience --- it's not the (IP) routing part that's giving trouble, as that's stateless and involves not much more than packet forwarding. Things like NAT do involve state, since the router has to assign a port mapping and keep track of (TCP) connection lifetimes. If connections aren't closed correctly or the router misses detecting them for whatever reason, the port mappings will stay in the table until they time out (which may take hours or more) or the "router" is rebooted. The problem becomes more frequent the more devices there are on the network which are making connections.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Every free wifi I have ever been on has been broken like this in one way or another, crazy ping times, randomly dropped packets or just extremely slow etc. In fact I am writing this right now from an Amtrak train but tethered to my phone since the free wifi is so bad.

<comment><USER24> I think Amtrak uses cellular connections to the outside internet. Depending upon the part of the country, there is a good chance that the weak point is their link to the cellular network.

<comment><USER25> It seemed like Amtrak uses Verizon for backhaul, at least on the Lake Shore Limited. It definitely goes through some spotty coverage areas.

Personally I couldn't care less about their wifi though - I appreciate the power outlets much more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> MacBooks have issues with WMM (WiFi QoS). I've seen my connection drop for dozens of seconds at a time when I enable WMM on my router. Selectively disabling it for my Mac (leaving it on for my wife's Lenovo and my HTPC) fixes the issue.

<comment><USER27> Thanks for tip. Just turned it off. Hopefully it will solve the issues which I have just on MacBook, iPhone works OK.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The details are vague but if I remember correctly, this is due to something OS X does with DHCP that isn't quite standard but apparently helps to make connection resumption faster --- when it works, that is.

<comment><USER28> I seem to remember this. Was it that OS X started using its old lease while waiting for it to renew under the assumption that it would probably get the same thing and be fine?

<comment><USER29> That's almost exactly the case.

Link here: [http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do](http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do)

Previous HN discussion here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2755461](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2755461)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> These aren't even that bad.

I've had a router start sending me two DHCP offers, with different IPs. The first offer containing an IP outside the range it was supposed to allocate. After my computer tried to accept the first offer, the router started ignoring me.

This behavior survived rebooting the router (and everything else involved), flushing the DHCP table fixed it for some reason.

<comment><USER31> I have a TP-Link Archer D9 on the "latest" firmware that will either:

1) stop giving out leases

2) suffer catastrophic failure in miniupnpd and stop allowing port forwarding

This is a $200AUD device and it's utter trash.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I had exactly the same problem with OSX - all other devices were fine but my macbook would drop packets after 30 seconds or so. Only fix seemed to be a new router. No problems since.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting! I looked quite a bit to see if there was anything OSX-specific that anyone else online had documented, but nothing I turned up seemed to pan out. I am reasonably certain that the ultimate culprit here is bad low-end wifi devices that either suffer from bad hardware (too little RAM, etc.) or bad software (some poorly tested customized version of embedded Linux), or both. But I'm really curious why only OSX seems to cause the problem to manifest in several of these cases.

<comment><USER29> Your article doesn't mention it: Have you tried using a statically assigned IP address? (Poor etiquette inside the DHCP range, but maybe if you just snarf the IP you've already leased..)

I ask this because OS X's DHCP stack is known to exhibit some strange and unfriendly behaviours: [http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do](http://cafbit.com/entry/rapid_dhcp_or_how_do)

<comment><AUTHOR> I did try that (though you're right that it's not in the article), setting the last DHCP address I'd received as static IP, but it doesn't seem to change anything. Still the same dropouts every ~30 seconds.

<comment><USER23> Maybe try force sending gratuitous ARP's every 10 seconds?

Also it might be interesting looking at a packet capture from both android and mac laptop to see what the difference is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I've found that in 90% of the cases where packets are dropped randomly on a consumer-level access point, the automatic channel selection is to blame. Go to settings, select a static channel number, and the problem disappears completely.

<comment><AUTHOR> In my case it doesn't seem to be the wifi side of things, but the routing side of things that's causing trouble. I can consistently ping the local AP itself, but the connection to the internet has periodic dropouts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I used to frequent a coffee shop with a router that would refuse to let my laptop's wifi card connect about half the time. Like the author, my phone could connect but it would simply not respond to any attempts to connect from my laptop, whether booted into Windows or OpenBSD. The only solution was to ask the barista to reset the router, which was all the more frustrating when they refused to do it because everyone else could connect just fine.

<comment><USER35> That seems like the readonable answer on the part of the barista.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I had a similar issue to this some time ago. I upgraded our internet at home to Comcast's 250 megabit package, in doing so I had to upgrade our modem. I picked up a Motorola/Arris Surfboard 6183

I ended up with an interesting issue where the modem itself would "hang". My ping to Google would skyrocket from 5ms to 3000ms+, my download speed would drop from 250~ megabits to 0.20, the upload speed however would remain constant at about 30Mbps

Rebooting anything and everything had no effect, throwing various kinds of routing equipment in front of the modem (from OpenWRT to PF sense to even OpenBSD) made no difference. Eventually I purchased a "KanKun SmartSwitch". Some cheap Chinese wall adapter that you could power devices on and off using a phone app. Conveniently it ran OpenWRT and was hackable, so I was able to automate simply rebooting the modem when pings spiked into the 4 digit range (pinging Google every 60 seconds with a simple bash script)

I spent months talking to various Comcast departments. Technical Support, Tier 2, Tier 3, NOC, Headend, Engineering. Eventually I was told that (across the 14 states in my "division") there's only about 20,000 of the model of modem I had, simply not enough to be able to establish a problematic pattern (presumably most customers would just reboot the device when it crashed

Frustrated, I noticed on the Amazon store page that there were numerous complaints about the device with the same issue. I assumed it most likely to be a firmware issue, as the headend engineering team could not correlate any changes from my device on the node at the timestamps I gave them, still archived here [http://intelminer.com/reboot.txt](http://intelminer.com/reboot.txt)

Upon speaking to Amazon about a refund or exchange, they referred me to Arris/Motorola citing it was under warranty. Arris/Motorola then "helpfully" explained that they certify everything BUT the software of the device to be functional, as such I was not covered under warranty. (But hey why not buy a Surfboard 6190 instead? it IS newer!)

It seems like almost a racket for planned obsolescence. Release a decent modem, hire some interns to write crap software, then encourage the customer to "upgrade" the "faulty" hardware when they call in. After all, it's not under warranty now is it?

<comment><USER37> > "helpfully" explained that they certify everything BUT the software of the > device to be functional

Perhaps because your ISP is responsible for providing and flashing the modem's firmware? That being said, I don't exactly trust Comcast to provide reliable software for my modem.

<comment><USER36> The firmware is maintained by the OEM and given to the ISP for distribution. The ISP does not specifically write (or maintain) the firmware used for customer owned equipment

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Check out the Mikrotik routers www.routerboard.com these are linux based and rock solid. The HAp AC Lite retails for $50 [https://routerboard.com/RB952Ui-5ac2nD](https://routerboard.com/RB952Ui-5ac2nD)

Also these routers are like swiss army knives they can do everything from DHCP Server to full BGP and MPLS. The only limitation is the CPU, Ram and the Interfaces.

</comment><comment><USER39> Same problems for me, experienced this a lot on my home wifi, using a dual band, modem / wifi router combo. Problems ONLY occurred on my MacBook Pro, no other devices.

Purchasing a dedicated modem and using an Apple AirPort Extreme was the only thing that resolved the issue, which annoyed me and made me feel like Apple is further locking me into their ecosystem of devices.

<comment><USER40> MBPs don't support certain channels which is maddeningly frustrating. Trying to find from my notes which channels those are, but when I finally changed from auto to hard-setting to channel 100, all my issues with MBPs on my network went away.

<comment><USER41> There are certain channels in the 5Ghz range that require the access point to do checking to make sure they don't actively interfere with radar...

See here for a document from Cisco describing the issue:

[http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/access/3200/sof...](http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/access/3200/software/wireless/3200WirelessConfigGuide/RadioChannelDFS.pdf)

interestingly enough, hard setting the channel to 100 might violate FCC regulations, and DFS should still be used...

<comment><USER40> There isn't radar within 100 miles of me so I'm not too concerned. Regardless, this AP firmware won't let you hard set to channels the FCC requires DFS on.

<comment><USER41> Channel 100 requires DFS... so you did set it to a channel that requires DFS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I experience basically the same level of problems on our office's Cisco Meraki gateway/firewall. A couple months ago we had to do a support ticket to get them to fix their spanning-tree implementation because it configured loops in our simple dual-master crossover switch configuration, forcing us to disable one of the masters. Then there was a spurious packet loss problem in one of the default configuration parameters.

Now it just randomly stalls TCP connections open until the local node closes them, but allows the remote node to continue receiving packets(!), which is probably the worst thing a TCP system can do aside from simply not connecting.

I quite literally had to attempt this post twice before giving up and connecting to a UDP VPN. I have watched my colleagues cancel and refresh webpage loads for the last few months.

<comment><USER43> I've had all sorts of problems with Meraki APs. They claim to hop around to find the clearest channel, but they all always chose channel 44. Manual channel selection was limited to non DFS channels, otherwise they'd switch back to channel 44. There was no insight into CPU usage, so we were suspicious that some QoS settings made everything grind to a halt, but we couldn't confirm. Switched to high end Ruckus APs and a Juniper router/firewall and it's now working properly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I dunno about the first, but the second looks oddly reminiscent of when i had a N800 and the router at home didn't have a first clue about wifi power saving.

IIRC how wifi does it is that the device signals the router and then shuts down the radio for some 100s of ms. This indicated to the router to hold the packets.

Now if the router do not have a clue about the signal, it would likely treat the device as gone. So when it comes back on and expects to continue from where it left off, the router gets royally confused.

Not sure why doing a dhcp request would fix it though, but then i have not the first clue about OSX innards.

</comment><comment><USER44> My router stops working about once a day, but only if Apple products are connected (not sure yet if iPhone or macbook (they often come in pairs), but it's consistent across 4 flatmates).</comment>


Cheaper than free: paying for music after searching for a free download - <AUTHOR> http://blog.bandcamp.com/2012/01/03/cheaper-than-free/ <comment><USER2> I didn't know Bandcamp but a few days ago I wanted to buy the Bastion soundtrack. The Bandcamp link was the first hit on Google and it was linked from the game's official page so I went there.

I could listen to all the songs without restriction, pick from a variety of reasonable formats (including ogg) and download the same album to my computer at work the next day without any trouble.

This is how you do it. They treated me like a customer not a criminal and it was actually _easier_ than using BitTorrent. I was happy to give these folks my money.

<comment><USER3> Bandcamp is a fantastic service, my friends and I absolutely love it. I love the ability to preview the mp3 audio at 128kpbs without flash. Noting that bandcamp takes 10-15% of the sale, with the rest going to the artist is what keeps me going back there first to look for music instead of iTunes.

Only downside is discovery of music on bandcamp, a side project I'm currently working on is a tool for myself to find new music on bandcamp; unfortunately their APIs aren't designed for finding similar artists.

<comment><USER4> Take a look at last.fm and their API - they have a pretty good relevant artist graph.

I made something to show it off a year or so ago: <http://richardlyon.co.uk/coffee/lastfm.php?artist=mogwai> (switch from 3d to 2d if it's being a pain, change artist in URL to something you like)

<comment><USER5> I dont suppose its open source is it? I'd really like to see how you've done it / what you used. Is it on gitHub?

UPDATE: @richthegeek, Thanks much appreciated.

<comment><USER4> Yep - <http://github.com/richthegeek/coffeegraph>

A more update version of the graphing program (without the lastfm stuff) is visible at <http://richthegeek.github.com/coffeegraph>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Another interesting point: bandcamp does not in any way prevent users from downloading songs from them for free. A quick "view source" makes it trivial to determine the actual URLs for all the songs in an album, as do any number of standard tools for downloading files referenced by a page. Despite that, they make it easy for people to actually purchase songs and albums rather than just downloading them, and thus people do purchase them rather than just downloading them. They explicitly point out this approach in their FAQ: <http://bandcamp.com/faq#steal> .

</comment><comment><USER7> For example, just this morning someone paid $10 for an album after Googling lelia broussard torrent. A bit later, a fan plunked down $17 after searching for murder by death, skeletons in the closet, mediafire.

Where do they get this data?

<comment><USER8> From the referer header. If someone clicks from google the search fields are transmitted in the referrer.

If this bothers you, use duckduckgo.com which has a special bounce-page to hide this info.

<comment><USER9> Or use https search, google doesn't even require you to go to encrypted.google.com [1]

[1] <https://www.google.com/>

<comment><USER10> Won't the referrer still be sent if the target site is available over SSL?

<comment><USER11> Yes, but the referrer will only be google.com.

Google SSL uses POST for the search query parameters, so the referrer URI w/ GET parameters will not leak your search terms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I still think paying more than a few cents per song is _insane_. Who set these prices? They're not based on actual scarcity or supply and demand.

<comment><USER13> Why? Do you think there are plenty of Queens around?

<comment><USER12> I'm not paying for the band itself, I'm paying for digital bits which are an infinite supply.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I use Bandcamp from the other side, and it is a fantastic service. They not only know the music industry from the inside out (read "Bandcamp for Drummers"), but I've literally never had any problem with their site's functionality.

</comment><comment> d135-1r43 This can work for some special interest bands that are arty and hip and young and sexy. It will not work for conservative musical genres and pop music.

<comment><USER15> > It will not work for conservative musical genres and pop music.

I don't see why it can't work for most musical genres. I have bought music from bandcamp that spans dozens of different genres.

As for pop music, good riddance.

I'd rather artists get paid because their music is good, not because some company is paying millions a year to market the hell out it.

<comment><USER16> I think what the GP means is that it won't mesh well with certain outdated marketing methods used for certain target audiences. The genre itself is merely correlated with this, not directly linked.

Which is perfectly okay. We're in an age where music production is so accessible that a few talented musicians can make music of better quality than a top "pop band" and sell it with near-zero distribution costs. The production cost of a full album, including paying a talented, professionally trained vocalist, is now down to just a few thousand dollars.

As a result, there's a massive, ever-increasing supply of incredibly high- quality music that never touched a record label. The genre and style are irrelevant.

"Pop artists" these days are now more a matter of selling idols than selling sound. Let the music be made by actual musicians: Justin Bieber and AKB48 were never marketed based on their music to begin with.

<comment><USER17> Exactly. A "one-size fits all" model isn't going to work in the fragmented music market. Pop artists & their labels already know how to make money selling music, this model is more in tune to the less-than-mainstream.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Sales Courses - <AUTHOR>

We are putting some new sales people with domain specific knowledge into the US, but they have little sales experience.
Does anyone have any recommendations for sales courses we could put people through when they get to the US? <comment><USER2> Depending on where in the US, I'm happy to introduce you to my company over there. Shirlaws are whole-of- business coaches, so we may be able to craft a specific sales course for your guys as part of your business.

Pros - Personalised, smaller group, easier to schedule

Drop me an email if you like.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you guys have a website about what you do etc?

<comment><USER2> For an overview, check out www.shirlawscoaching.com

Some articles, blogs etc, are at www.shirlawsonline.com

Nothing sales specific is accessible online, but I'd be happy to discuss our processes if you want. jaldridge at shirlawscoaching dot com</comment></comment></comment>


Google Wave invites give-away - <AUTHOR>

Hi everyone, I'm not sure this is the right place for this, but anyway:
I've got: - 7 wave invites to distribute - one activation link that I received but don't need (I'm already in!)
The invites are not sent out directly, but I guess the activation link gives you direct access.
Who's interested ? <comment><USER2> Can you send me an invite here?

[http://mailhide.recaptcha.net/d?k=01RxSmw8ds0gccYt1JV7X-vA==...](http://mailhide.recaptcha.net/d?k=01RxSmw8ds0gccYt1JV7X-vA==&c=f7TwtrH5vaeILasH-6YWy33JH4_IUktvAN02dEv2BJU=)

Thanks.

<comment><AUTHOR> done

<comment><USER2> Thank you.</comment></comment></comment>


Free Beer for Yahoo employees who were laid off - <AUTHOR> http://www.facebook.com/TiedHouseBrewing/posts/176519145699301

<comment><AUTHOR> From a marketing perspective, is this a good idea? Will employees remember - wow they were there in my time of need, and go back more often? Or will they just think... yeah that's the place I got shit-faced at the night Yahoo canned me, I'm never going back there?</comment>


The Eponymous Mr. Ponzi - <AUTHOR> https://www.damninteresting.com/the-eponymous-mr-ponzi <comment><USER2> If you'd like to read the story as told by Ponzi himself, his self-published 1936 autobiography _The Rise of Mr. Ponzi_ can be read in its entirety online here: [https://www.charlesponzi.com/the-rise-of-mr- ponzi](https://www.charlesponzi.com/the-rise-of-mr-ponzi)

 _> The "racket" of international reply coupons actually fell in my lap like a ripe apple. I did not have to shake the tree to get it. I just reached over, where it had fallen, and took it. It looked good. Luscious. I examined it for flaws. Found none. I had to bite. I wouldn't have been human if I didn't._

And a printed version with lots of supplemental material included is available as well: [https://despair.com/collections/books/products/the-rise- of-m...](https://despair.com/collections/books/products/the-rise-of-mr-ponzi- charles-ponzis-1937-autobiography)

<comment><USER3> Thanks for linking to the autobiography.

Just one thing:

> _" I had to bite. I wouldn't have been human if I didn't."_

Such are the self-serving justifications of con-men, swindlers and criminals everywhere. "I'm only human", "I was just following orders", "I was weak", "other people would have done the same". Nah, I wouldn't rip off people and lead them to ruin even if I had the chance. Nice try, Mr. Ponzi.

<comment><USER4> How many of us have 'I had to pay the mortgage' or 'put the kids through college' as an excuse?

Mr. Ponzi is no exception.

<comment><USER5> I don't have kids, but I have gotten an eviction notice due to non-payment because I was broke and unemployed for a month a few years ago (with a maxed- out credit card, no less). Even then, when I was at my most desperate, it never occurred to me to try and swindle anyone, or mug anyone, or (as far as I know) anything obviously immoral.

I seriously doubt I'm a saint; I think most people don't want to hurt other people.

(If anyone is interested in the conclusion of that story, I was able to eventually find a job and after a million calls to the landlord I got him to let me pay a bit later and keep my apartment).

<comment><USER6> Most people see themselves as good. The thing is, most people don't start out with a plan to defraud tens of thousands of people for millions. Even towards the end Ponzi believed he'd pay it back.

It starts off with a small lie to yourself - I'll just use this money to pay him and when the investment pays off it'll all work out... and then it grows from there.

Cognitive dissonance is an amazing quality of the human brain. I recommend reading Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me - fascinating stories of how and why it happens.

<comment><USER3> I do not doubt there are people for whom it works like that. There are also people who do not start like gamblers, but end up with an out of control addiction.

I've known people with "get rich schemes" who ended up lying and stealing from their loved ones.

But the self-serving excuse of "I'm only human" is always a lie. That's not being human; that's being a _particular_ , untrustworthy kind of human. Not all of us, or even the majority, are like that. "But it's just my nature" is such a cowardly excuse for lying and cheating.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My grandfather was taken in by a Ponzi scheme a few years before his death. He poured tens of thousands of dollars (his entire savings) into the sceme, despite my father's protestations. At one point my father gathered as much info about the "investments" as he could, and forwarded it to the authorities. He and my grandfather were on less friendly terms after that, even after the scheme's author was arrested and sentenced. My grandfather was convinced that my dad singlehandedly shut down a legitimate operation. My grandfather passed away about 6 months after the swindler was sentenced to 20 years in prison. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/billsinger/2011/11/18/botfly- ll...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/billsinger/2011/11/18/botfly-llcs- lewalski-sentenced-in-federal-forex-ponzi-case/)

<comment><USER8> I can totally understand how people get taken in by scams, but I'm completely baffled at how it's so common to double down on them after they're exposed. Human psychology is weird.

Any thoughts on how to handle this better? I imagine many of us will have to deal with this sort of thing at one point or another.

<comment><USER9> It's not weird at all. The human mind has all sorts of ways of protecting itself from harm or pain. No one likes feeling like a fool or being shown to be wrong. When faced with the (subconscious) choice of either admitting you were tricked and feeling humiliated or a comforting lie that somehow you were right all along, the lie is very tempting.

Con men count on this to keep their marks from balking, and I imagine the bigger the swindle the more powerful the urge to accept the delusion is, since the humiliation and shame are all the greater. Especially when, as in the parent comment's grandfather's case, the man's own son was telling him he was being scammed and he refused to listen. To have to face his son later and admit he'd been had must have seemed far too galling.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Ponzi scheme for me the reason of our greed and endeavour of money. And these people are just selling hope that's all. I lost my uncle because of it. He was a jeweller and didn't care as well as he should about the finance and found himself lots of debt.

Sometimes I remind myself we're so much oriented about the money we forget why we need to earn it.

I call it infinite loop problem let me explain very briefly.

Let's say you want to open the door of your house but your keys are in the car so for that you need to open the car first. But car is locked and you're thinking about where did you put the keys then your wife opens the house door.

Some of us still focused to open the car to get the keys although it's unnecessary anymore. They're in the infinite loop.

Excellent question here is, sometimes it's extremely hard to find our own defects, if I would have been Ponzi would it have been possible to realise my way is going down.

<comment><USER11> Some CS friends call this behavior "depth-firsting," as if the person is doing a depth first search and won't consider trying anything else until they're satisfied the current approach won't work -- that includes exhausting all subproblems that arise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I was fortunate enough to have avoided disaster with another Ponzi scheme in the early days of the Internet. This particular individual had invested in a company I'd helped start which went on to be quite successful - but my hackles were raised by a few meetings such that I avoided investing with him. Which, on the one hand sucked - because it meant I was shut out of having a whirlwind success with the _one_ company in his portfolio that was legit - the one I'd helped start.

But on the other hand, the relief I felt at not having to deal with the Feds over this guy was huge.

Since then, its been amazing to me just how much crooked behaviour goes on with tech investments. I've managed to avoid further entanglements with Ponzi- style schemes in the decade since, but I'll never forget this one guys' pure sleaziness, how it raised my alarm bells, and yet how others saw it as competence and genius.

If only I'd had the temerity to differentiate between the one good thing (which I had agency over) and all the crud, I'm quite sure I'd be worth millions more today ..

<comment><USER13> Care to spare some details? Your first hand experience even without the names can be most useful/interesting for HN types.

<comment><USER12> Well, the nature of the business is that I'd really rather not discuss it, but its enough to say that in the heigh-day of the Internet bubble, late 80's/early-90's, there was a lot of Ponzi going on, around the bandwidth providers. If you look at it, the way the Internet was constructed back then is kind of Ponzi, only back then we called it 'over-subscription' ...

<comment><USER13> I recall a case study about the telecom industry and how it was a race to the bottom laying undersea cables and then the bubble burst. But that assessment was in hindsight. I guess a distinction needs to be made between a "bubble" which is a part of the market economy, and what can be called a "ponzi scheme" which is malicious from the very beginning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I guess like most other HN readers, I've heard of the Ponzi scheme but didn't knew the real story behind it. As long as there are naive people there will always be smarter ones taking advantage of them.

A very interesting read and I'm sure this would make a great movie (Di Caprio playing Ponzi)!

<comment><USER15> It's a mistake to assume all the investors in these schemes are naive or that they all lost money (particularly with the more recent schemes I would imagine). Many fully understand what is happening and know that if they get in early and out again before the music stops there is a very good return in it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> There is a book called "Ponzi's Scheme: The True Story of a Financial Legend" that is a pretty good read. I would recommend it to anyone who enjoys non- fiction.

[https://www.amazon.com/Ponzis-Scheme-Story-Financial- Legend/...](https://www.amazon.com/Ponzis-Scheme-Story-Financial- Legend/dp/B00083FZ7C)

<comment><USER17> Came here to recommend this book! The Audible recording is fantastic too (it's how I first read it about 12 years ago).

The story is both of Ponzi and the newspaper man that took him down. The two men had a lot of parallels but ultimately ended up very differently.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> If you'd like to program / code your own ponzis and ponzi simulations on the blockchain, see the free "Programming Crypto Blockchain Contracts Step-by-Step Book / Guide" [1]. [1]: [https://github.com/openblockchains/programming- cryptocontrac...](https://github.com/openblockchains/programming- cryptocontracts)

</comment><comment><USER19> Ah, I remember reading this story as a young kid in Readers Digest. Important lessons to be learned for everyone, alas a fool and his money are soon parted</comment>


Ask HN: If you were seventeen and had passion and time what would you do? - <AUTHOR>

Hello!  I would take a gander and say I'm one of the youngest startup employees on here.  I work for a pretty nice startup that deals in social political advocacy.  I just graduated high school and have been dealing in the web since I was 12.  I taught myself CSS/HTML and have learned through many designers how to tell the difference between good and bad design.  I'm a fan of usability and helping people do things easier.  I am always looking for ways to make things better from the minute I step into a room.
So my question:  Say you were 17, had little monthly expenses (<$250), and had a decent amount of free time on your hands taking a year off from college.  What would you do to make the best of it?  Projects, jobs, knowledge, or what? Or if you could have gone back to my age, what would you have done or done better?
As of now I would say I have a basic understanding of the startup world and business process.  I am proficient in HTML/CSS and have little knowledge of an actual programming language but am familiar with how it works.  And on top of it all, I have a huge passion for the web and learning new things.
Thanks in advance! <comment><USER2> I started getting involved in startups when I was around 16, there's a lot I'd do differently and a lot I would do the same if I could go back. Here are some thoughts:

1) Build a network: I'd say that the valuable thing I have done is build a network. Attend industry conferences and events in your area, and become engrained in the startup community. Your age is an advantage, it gets you noticed, and means almost anyone will take a meeting with you. Put yourself in lots of situations that scare you, you'll look back and wonder what the big deal was. The best opportunities come when you're you're at the right place at the right time.

2) Learn to program: I'm 'non-technical', having just finished a degree in business marketing. Only recently have I really started making an effort to learn to program (mostly ruby), but I wish I had done it much earlier. Its important even if you never want to be a developer that you have a strong understanding of how things work and what's possible. Its also frustrating not to have the skills to have an idea and create a prototype, without spending your life savings or bringing on a partner.

3) Seize Opportunities: Early on I wasn't too particular about what opportunities I helped out with, if it got me excited, I was in. This mentality let me try a lot of different things and helped me learn better time management. You'll learn what you like and what you don't like. Don't be afraid to get in over your head.

Best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I want to get out in the city and meet and sieze and do all of that. Just finding the opportunity to take that first step is hardest.

<comment><USER2> I'm sure there are startup/web events going on in your area. Literally just pick a few and sign-up. There will be a lot of hit and miss but the most important thing is to stop thinking about it and just do.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't live in a 'startup area' quite honestly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'll be strictly practical. As somebody who taught himself CSS first and HTML second, at a later age, with a master plan, I advise you to learn javascript to the hilt, and have a complete tooling shop. You could also use to learn about other structured document types besides HTML. Keep an eye on the avante garde. Set some goals. Javascript enabled, choose your next adventure: the way of canvas, webGL, svg, and the great growing mass of libraries for browser graphics and interactivities; or the way of software architecture, and crack Node.js and familiarize your self with all its modules; learn networks and databasing. You can maybe do both, eventually. Either one will allow you significantly to experiment and invent, and/or become involved in IRL collaborations. You have nothing but lots of time to become a craftsman, to build a people network, interact with the growing base of young adults gearing up to inherit a galore of industry overdue for innovations. Maintain a simple life. An occupational cycle of learning and practice is as good as it gets. Read everything. Become an apprentice and glean some hard-won knowledge ahead of time itself. Consider it good fortune if anybody besides you takes yourself seriously until about 1755046732, in dollars or milliseconds.

</comment><comment><USER4> Talk to people. Make lots of friends. Network.

The technical skills will come with time and it already looks like you've got that under control and moving in the right direction. If you want to be known as the All Knowing Developer of X then you can spend more time learning about X and probably do just fine. The only thing that separates people who are good at what they do from people who are great is just the time they spent doing it (Assuming the level of passion is also equal).

But I think the skills that are underestimated in the tech world are people skills - spend time cultivating them and they will last you a lifetime.

If I had more time on my hands right now that's actually what I would be doing, making more friends.

<comment><USER5> Completely agree. The old adage is "it's now what you know, it's who you know".

This is especially true in the computer industry. If you want to create a startup you need to know people with money to fund you, and business/technical people you can get to help you out with your ideas. On the other side, you can get a great start on a job as a programmer if you know someone who's willing to give you the time and exposure you need to learn and grow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I started out with a good knowledge of HTML/CSS, learned the basic ropes of javascript to meet my needs, and then dove into Ruby and Ruby on Rails. I'm really happy to have chosen that path, as with RoR you can build cool functioning prototypes without tons of experience (e.g. for me a month or two of casual learning). RoR is also pretty common in the start up world, and just knowing the ropes of it can be a great advantage even just as a designer.

I'm not sure what you're plans are for your year off, but I would live in a city with lots of companies/industries and activities that interest you. Not everyone feels this way, but the vibes of being in a big city aren't really matched anywhere else

<comment><AUTHOR> I would love to live in just a city, period.

I live in the south, and it's not fun. I do love the city when I get to go but living there costs a lot and I don't know how I'd pay for a decent place. Unless any 'hacker' houses were available. Hmm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> You answered your question with your own final sentence:

"I have a huge passion for the web and learning new things."

That's exactly what you should focus on. What catches _your_ eye? Read up on the why's and what-for's of each faction of web reality, from data storage to real-time GUI processes. See what you think is most exciting, or which elements of the "real world" you want to be a part of, and see how technology helps them do their work better.

I hope you continue the path you are on: whatever direction you take, you will be ahead of the many around you that don't have that Passion. Match your work to your passion, and you can not help but excel-

Best wishes-

</comment><comment><USER8> Hard question to answer because 17 is such a transitional age.

When I was 17, the only things I had passion for was baseball & girls. So, I guess I would have worked harder at the first.

I can't really say "I would have done X" because that's not who I was then. BUT I do have a 17 year old daughter ... so, if you're asking what I would tell her if she took a year off college, I think it would be: (a) don't get a credit card, (b) pick an art/technology/cooking skill that can be learned in 3 -6 months and do it, (c) then either travel to a 3rd world country and live/volunteer OR volunteer/intern at a startup

</comment><comment><USER9> Go towards your pain. Fix it, then share your solution with the world.

</comment><comment><USER10> Visit as many friends as you can. Road trip every weekend!

<comment><AUTHOR> that sounds good actually.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Are you American?

If so, build a credit score. It'll take you 10-20 hours and make you thousands of dollars.

Easiest way from a scratch: Go into your bank, deposit money into a CD, get a secured loan against that CD.

Doing this correctly will make you lots later. I just got a couple new AMEX cards with 75,000 membership reward point signing bonuses each. Those can be used for $750 in statement credits. Yes, American Express just gave me $1,500 for signing up for new cards with them. Seriously. And that's just the tip of the iceberg for illustrative purposes. Get a credit score. You in 5 years will thank me for making/saving you thousands of dollars.</comment>


Cinder - open source library for professional-quality creative coding in C++ - <AUTHOR> http://libcinder.org/

<comment><USER2> Looks nice- more cross platform batteries for C++. I'm sort of sad they don't support Linux though.

</comment><comment><USER3> That is a really clever logo. Who designed it?

<comment><USER4> The Barbarian Group is known to be a top design agency that creates really impressive creative design. So probably them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Did anybody else misinterpret the phrase "creative coding in C++"?

<comment><USER6> Yes. I thought: "How would this library help the way I write code in C++?" Apparently "creative coding" means a particular class of applications.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> source: <http://github.com/cinder/Cinder>

</comment><comment><USER7> Looks like Robert Hodgins, et al, has graduated from the world of Processing. For those of you who aren't familiar with Hodgins/Barbarian Group, he's the guy behind the original Magnetopshere visualization, which was eventually ported over to iTunes.

</comment><comment><USER8> it's interesting the use the phrase "creative coding" but make no reference to openframeworks, which is essentially the competition and also uses that phrase <http://www.openframeworks.cc/>

<comment><USER9> No offence to the OF project intended, but if nothing else the Cinder code appears to be a lot cleaner. I don't like the way OF wraps GL functions for a start.

At a first gander it looks like Cinder lets doesn't baby you as much, and really provides a "consistent way to do this kind of C++" as much as the library functions themselves.

That's my first impression anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> can anyone comment on how Cinder compares to openFrameworks?

</comment><comment><USER11> From the FAQ:

>First, when it comes to power and performance, C++ is still the language to beat.

Oh really?

<comment><USER12> What do you find controversial about that statement?

You can certainly argue over which languages are most powerful, but there's really only one other general purpose language that rivals C++ in terms of performance and that's C. C++ being nearly a strict superset of C is almost by definition more powerful.

<comment><USER11> This whole thing implicitly assumes there's some acceptable "balance" you're making when you compare abstraction power and performance. Ignoring the fact that "choosing speed" or "choosing abstraction" is a bit of a false dichotomy, that's okay. But according to this page, C++ is the perfect harmony between these two areas. I'm calling bullshit on how arbitrary that is.

<comment><USER13> WTF are you on about? The page doesn't say any of that. They acknowledge that C++ is not perfect but give specific reasons why it's a good fit for this domain: performance, access to cutting edge tech (e.g. GPUs, iPhone, iPad) and access to native OS facilities. The only other language that fits that description is C, and you're damn right that "speed" and "abstraction" do not sum to zero: C++ is C with more abstractive power.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Infrastructure setup for relatively easy app? - <AUTHOR> Hey HN!
We are currently experiencing some issues with our staging environment and would like to set up something to replace it. And in the future we'll also need production environment which will have extra requirements.
There are 3 main infrastructure components:

  - Postgres (we need PostGIS extension)
  - Redis (we use it as a cache, so data doesn't need to be persisted)
  - NodeJS (we have it dockerized already)
 Staging Requirements:

  - So we can easily push a new version of the NodeJS app (docker image) to be updated from the CI
  - So we can easily run migrations/seeds (so far we've been running a docker image in the cloud but instead of starting it we run migration command)
 Production Requirements:

  - Postgres Backups
  - Alerting/monitoring system (we were thinking of prometheus and grafana but happy to hear suggestions)
  - Auto scale
  - Auto Failover
  - Load balancing
  - Deployable from CI as well
 I have used a bunch of different technologies in the past, but prefer way more to focus on development than infrastructure, so we are looking for something easy to maintain, something that could ideally be transferred between hosting providers. Managed K8S by DigitalOcean seems to be like the good option, but I am not sure I want to pull in the complexity of k8s for a team as small as ours.
What would you do in my situation?
ps. are databases like postgres supposed to be running inside containers and not on bare metal? Isn't performance affected a lot? <comment><USER2> W put a client with a very similar stack on GKE / GCP. They are quite happy with the reliability and ease with which they can get software through the process.

We could do something similar in about 20 hours. Email me if you are interested to talk further.</comment>


Burnout, fatigue, depression, and DevOps - <AUTHOR> http://www.thoughtfix.com/blog/2015/8/30/burnout-fatigue-depression-and-devops <comment><USER2> It might not always be possible, but if you can "solve" depression by changing your conditions or your behavior, that seems highly preferable to a chemical solution.

It's easy to underestimate how programmable the mind is. You don't have to have any fixed goal; indeed I suspect it's often better not to. Introspection, study, learning, conversation, they all cause reprogramming.</comment>


Social Networking's "Naked" Truth - <AUTHOR> http://www.cnbc.com/id/31849843

<comment><USER2> I think Facebook really could make a crap-ton in any number of ways, just from all the user data they have available for mining. Advertisers would (and already do) pay through the nose for that. I think ad revenue is generally an awful money source for a web app, but Facebook is big and addictive enough to command some crazy rates.

And that makes me scratch my head when they talk about "building the userbase" and "not focusing on revenue yet" Maybe I'm just short sighted, but I think it's time for FB to start cashing in. Just like anything else, it's best to launch your revenue model early and iterate, rather than waiting until the timing is perfect.

<comment><USER3> I would think that selling access to the user data would alienate a large portion of users.

<comment><USER2> If they are overly crass or stupid about it (like Beacon), then yes, users will get pissed. But, if they just got rid of those awful sidebar ads and replaced them with high quality, highly expensive ads for major brands, then I think users would be quite happy. Especially if the ads were highly targeted (based on user data) and the users found the ads useful or entertaining.

They really need to ditch those "click here to learn the secrets to being a billionaire" ads. They're just awful and they cheapen that ad space. The longer those ads run, the harder it will be for FB to get real advertisers to put anything worthwhile in there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Reading an article [1] on Facebook and Google gave me some prospective on the value of these social networking sites outside of their own sites.

It mentioned Facebook's idea of using its knowledge of social graphs to power other sites to allow you to connect to friends through them. I'm guessing instead of having apps embedded in Facebook, Facebook would be embedded in the app. It's an interesting idea, which definitely brings a lot of value, but it still lacks a clear revenue stream.

[1] [http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-07/ff_facebookwa...](http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-07/ff_facebookwall?currentPage=all)

</comment><comment><USER5> FTA: Yahoo's Carol Bartz doesn't have any interest in Facebook or Twitter either. No money in it, and Yahoo's building its own communities without having to spend huge premiums on unproven, unprofitable assets.

Such as Flickr, or Del.icio.us?

</comment><comment><USER6> This article is pretty lacking in substance for a 15 pointer, and I would expect no better from tech news from CNBC.</comment>