Why do browsers not allow non-readable javascript? - <AUTHOR>

As more processing moves to the client side, would it not helpful to allow site admins to protect the source code in their Javascript?
Perhaps by encrypting the Javascript files and providing a mechanism for them to be decrypted by the browser internally?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for open source and openness but for some companies it just does not fit the culture. <comment><USER2> I would say that the fact that the browser "inflicts" open-source upon organizations could be one of the best things that could happen for society. Companies for which this paradigm "doesn't fit the [company] culture" are going to have to make a choice: keep things secret server side and compromise on the UX or move things client side for the sake of a better UX and compromise on secrecy of source code.

Those companies that have secrecy as a cultural value are going to be at a clear disadvantage from a UX point of view. The web is getting faster. People in general are becoming less and less tolerant of load times and other delays. The success of native apps proves this. Choosing secrecy will hurt your company unless you truly have a sauce so special that people will be tolerant of latency to taste it.

Native apps are the last refuge of companies that want to maintain end-to-end secrecy throughout the entire stack. The fragmentation of smart phones suggests that web apps are the future because every apps with social features is less useful if only people with the same kind of device as you can use it. Companies will have no choice but to develop in a space that is open.

As a consolation to companies with secrecy as a cultural value, the locus of computation is increasingly blurred between the browser and the server. The source code of most advanced client-side javascript apps that I've seen so far look like swiss cheese in that they're all full of holes, where the holes are functionality that is handled server side and are often the most complex tasks that an app is performing for the user.

</comment><comment><USER3> If the browser can decrypt it then it is a simple matter to get at the decrypted code.

If you want to make it really difficult to "steal" code just run it through a minifer. You'll never really be able to hide what a script is doing though. If you want logic not to be user-known and very likely user-modifiable you -must- make it server side. If this weren't the case DRM would actually work ;)

</comment><comment><USER4> The one thing I've noticed about every single person so far who has asked me if I could help them "protect" their javascript is that there was nothing at all unique about it.

They've almost always reinvented some part of jQuery or a well know plugin and done it badly.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm all for hating on DRM, but those of you posting here saying that DRM doesn't work under any circumstance are being a bit disingenuous, I think.

Putting the ethical questions aside, if browsers allowed javascript encryption and company X has a program that "frombulates widgets" and they want to protect their code from their main competitor Y, such encryption would present a valuable obstacle, even if it may not be 100% impossible to crack.

</comment><comment><USER6> The companies are just going to have to adapt to the culture.

</comment><comment><USER7> If your algorithm isn't black sorcery and does anything visible to the end user, another programmer can reproduce it.

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm getting a flashback of all the sites that used to try to disable right click.

</comment><comment><USER9> There is No Such Thing as Proprietary Client-side JavaScript ([http://www.sarajchipps.com/2011/12/there-is-no-such-thing- is...](http://www.sarajchipps.com/2011/12/there-is-no-such-thing-is- proprietary-client-side-javascript.html))

</comment><comment><USER10> Because DRM doesn't work in practice.

</comment><comment><USER11> If the browser can decrypt it, then anybody else can. Everything else will be security by obscurity and will be broken.

</comment><comment><USER12> If you encrypt it, then everyone will need to decrypt it. Which means they need the decryption key or it won't work :-) Sort of defeats the purpose!</comment>


PL/Lua: Lua as a loadable procedural language for Postgres - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/pllua/pllua <comment><USER2> Except don't use this one.

It's buggy and forgotten.

Use:

[https://github.com/pllua/pllua-ng](https://github.com/pllua/pllua-ng)

Rewritten, much better and actually updated.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you want a modern version of this, you should checkout [https://github.com/RhodiumToad/pllua- ng](https://github.com/RhodiumToad/pllua-ng)

A friend of mine benchmarked different pl languages and [https://github.com/eugwne/pllj](https://github.com/eugwne/pllj) was basically the fastest, but it's not so actively maintained. pllua-ng with luajit 2.1 was also faster than plv8. But that was about two years ago, your milage may vary.

"Lua is faster - PL/V8 is lightly faster than Python, but Lua is about 30% faster than PL/V8" \- Pavel Stěhule and that was without luajit, but 4 years ago.

Maybe someone should build a benchmark :D

<comment><USER4> These are both up to date at the moment, but it's not entirely clear which one of these will be used for future development:

[https://github.com/RhodiumToad/pllua- ng](https://github.com/RhodiumToad/pllua-ng) [https://github.com/pllua/pllua- ng](https://github.com/pllua/pllua-ng)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Looking at these great PL* languages makes me wonder if it would be feasible to use something like GraalVM to write PL functions in R/Java/JS/etc.

Oracle DB supports this already (it seems, I've not tried it): [https://www.graalvm.org/docs/examples/mle- oracle/](https://www.graalvm.org/docs/examples/mle-oracle/) ) - and the advantage of Graal is it supports a wide range of languages and can output native binaries.

<comment><USER6> There's already pljava ([https://github.com/tada/pljava](https://github.com/tada/pljava)) for java....we use it extensively where I work.

<comment><USER7> How much fun is that?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> For interest, here a post that show a quick comparison of PLPGSQL, PLLua & PLV8 [https://www.newfies-dialer.org/using-lua-in-postgresql- pllua...](https://www.newfies-dialer.org/using-lua-in-postgresql-pllua/)

<comment><USER3> I quickly redid the benchmarks: [https://gist.github.com/xvaara/df0b802b86d2aa4f30b88a3fd6b69...](https://gist.github.com/xvaara/df0b802b86d2aa4f30b88a3fd6b69a14)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This looks really cool--reminds me of the capabilities of Redis with Lua scripts. Does anyone know how it compares to PLV8 ([https://github.com/plv8/plv8](https://github.com/plv8/plv8))?

<comment><USER4> Or Tarantool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is neat. Anyone know of any functional languages that would integrate with Postgres?

<comment><USER11> Scala and Clojure should run under pljava. Probably not a lot of people doing that though!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> On a game I worked on, we used little snippets of lua in our UI for both labels and property values (as well as our scripting language). It was very akin to working with something like HTML+JS. Super convenient.

</comment><comment><USER13> That's interesting. For somebody who's not all that familiar with Lua, what are it's main selling points for something like this?

<comment><USER14> If you take this idea a lot farther - imagine your entire application — frontend, backend, web-service, views — can run as a stored procedure inside the database, and thus load data so fast that it opens up new architectural possibilities beyond client/server. That sounds like crazyland for people from the postgres/rest mindset, but it starts to become possible when you have a simple and portable language that runs in many places. [http://www.dustingetz.com/:stu-halloway-datomic-ions-in- seve...](http://www.dustingetz.com/:stu-halloway-datomic-ions-in-seven- minutes/)

<comment><USER15> Stored Proc biz-logic architecture was a big thing in the 2000s. MSSQL with its T-SQL were very common (and its polymorphic AND multi-table return types, could make for some very interesting control flows sometimes). There was a lot of bitterness about it back in the late 00's and early 10's, and it drove a lot of ORM adoption.

I worked for a shop in the late 00's and early 10's that had Very Big Database Servers doing several hundred million transactions per second (100+ core, multiple RAMSan, etc. type bare metal servers), and stored procs were the way the go. They were basically the interface layer to the data, and it allowed us to keep the interface (or even version it) but change how access happened behind the scenes, like splitting a table into partitions, or replacing a bad performing query with a differently structured one that did better, which made it a non-concern for the frontend code that was responsible for getting data and formatting it, and didn't really care about _how_ that data was retrieved.</comment></comment></comment>


The Absurdity of Free Will - <AUTHOR> https://www.hugomontenegro.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN, I hope you like the essay! Please tell me if anything is unclear.

Cheers

<comment><USER2> Great that you ask help.

I think your next step is to learn about compatibilism (the notion that free will is compatible with determinism). Compatibilism is the main view held by materialist philosophers today.

Framing free will as determinism vs. randomness works only if you equate free will exactly with randomness. If free will has anything to do with agency, randomness is not free will.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. I didn't include compatibilism because I don't think that's the kind of freedom people think of when they think of free will. If you are free to choose to live by your own rules, but the rules you live by are determined by your environment, how can we really call this free?

<comment><USER2> > but the rules you live by are determined by your environment, how can we > really call this free?

I suggest you study compatibilism to find out.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Creativity Over Optimization - <AUTHOR> http://blog.asmartbear.com/creativity-over-optimization.html

<comment><USER2> _"Boogers were already semi-standardized. User interfaces should follow the principle of "least surprise" — if people are used to a certain metaphor, icon, or behavior, you should honor that so people understand your product immediately. No one else had a mini-viewer."_

It's amazing how many people misinterpret and/or completely make up their own definitions for the principle of least surprise.

 _"6. The mini-viewer doesn't convey more information than boogers do."_

This is wrong, and seems to be the key point of what the 'mini-viewer' has over 'boogers' -- the miniviewer shows the shape of the text where the text has been changed. If you're familiar with the text, you have a decent chance of being able to look at the shape of the text in the mini-viewer and possibly know what that text says, vaguely if not precisely. The boogers just show the vertical position of the changes in the document. Thus, the mini-viewer _does_ convey more information than the boogers.

The fact that it is a miniature representation of the document is also a plus -- the boogers are an abstraction where as the mini-viewer is a representation.

The main thing I get is that this guy is thinking about UI optimization in terms of how can the UI be optimized for the guy implementing it, rather than how the UI can be optimized for the person using it, which is exactly the wrong way to think about optimization.

<comment><USER3> > The main thing I get is that this guy is thinking about UI optimization in > terms of how can the UI be optimized for the guy implementing it, rather > than how the UI can be optimized for the person using it, which is exactly > the wrong way to think about optimization.

I read the article as more of "this is the problem with interpreting 'do incremental development' as 'be a genetic algorithm.'" If you told a computer to come up with things that make the UX _slightly_ better, it would come up with boogers before it came up with the miniviewer, because boogers are a local minimum, whereas the miniviewer requires "climbing the hill" of development-without-promise-of-reward. To put it another way, a _half- implemented_ miniviewer would be _much worse_ than boogers—so in order to come up with the miniviewer, you can't rely on "evolutionary" customer feedback, but rather have to use some "revolutionary" R&D as well.

<comment><USER2> Maybe I missed something, but I got the sense that the article was addressing how humans should design for humans -- computers designing for humans is a whole different story and doesn't seem to fit into the scope of what that article was addressing.

As for evolutionary vs revolutionary, I think a main factor in how UI design has progressed over the years has been how capable computers have been at rendering and processing UIs. But I think we're at the point (and have been) where computers are capable of rendering whatever UI is best, but a huge portion of our collective UI design knowledge is based on the time when it wasn't capable of that. So we really need to rethink the core of the visual computer interaction experience. There's a whole lot of useless cruft in every major computer UI (win/max/*nix) that needs to go.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Very well said. Sometime you just have to trust your gut feeling on what's best for the users, despite the lack of feedback.</comment>


Ask HN: Why shouldn't I roll my own password manager? - <AUTHOR> Hi all! I'm currently working on a personal assistant bot (no 3rd parties involved, self hosted) that uses one SQLite file as its single source of truth. I would like to add password manager functionality to this so I can e.g. ask it to fill out online forms or save registration information. All passwords would be saved to the SQLite database hashed and salted with AES-256 and they'd need a master password (not stored anywhere) to be decrypted.<p>I know the golden rule is to not roll your own crypto, and I'm thinking this is somewhat adjacent to that. What does a password manager do in terms of security that I haven't / can't? Or am I on the right track and all password managers work in this same basic way? <comment><USER2> Instead of doing everything from scratch, you could support bitwarden API on server side and reuse all the existing clients. Or at least look at how they do it before you start your own.

What to watch out for? Honestly, you're missing some information regarding encryption - you can't store the passwords hashed and salted (you need to recover them completely) and aes-256 does neither of those operations. So you have to at least do some extra research.

<comment><USER3> bitwarden_rs might be a good starting point

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> A few comments:

"All passwords would be saved to the SQLite database hashed and salted with AES-256" \- AES-256 is not a hash algorithm, its a symmetrical encryption algorithm.

If you "salt and hash" the passwords before you store them, you cannot retrieve the passwords again, you can only confirm that a user provided the same password now as they did when you stored it.

If you're encrypting the passwords using AES-256, you've got the meta problem of securing the encryption/decryption key (and if that's coming from your "master password" you need to ensure that it actually has enough bits of entropy and that it's suitably processed from a password/passphrase into something usable as a 256 bit AES key.

My gut feel from your wording/terminology there is that you're not yet ready to start a project that's intended to secure a collection of important passwords. Perhaps I'm wrong, and you're just using crypto-related terminology in a very loose fashion, but if I were you I'd do some more research and become at least knowledgable enough that you don't write about it as ambiguously at you have here.

A good way to start there might be to learn how the BitWarden handles the password encryption. It's open source, so you can see all the gory details, and it's been third party reviewed, so you can follow along with some of the reviewers complaints and the fixes the project made via their GitHub history.

Note that BitWarden have an interesting comment in their FAQ: "Bitwarden does not write any cryptographic code. Bitwarden only invokes crypto from popular and reputable crypto libraries that are written and maintained by cryptography experts." which is a big positive in my opinion. (Note that using good crypto code incorrectly can still leave them wide open, but it's a way better starting point that rolling any of your own crypto code...)

They also settled on at least a similar set of "buzzwords" as you have: "Your data is sealed with end-to-end AES-256 bit encryption, salted hashing, and PBKDF2 SHA-256." so at least there's some confirmation that you're on the right path :-)

And, in case you have't seen it yet: [https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/04/03/cryptographic- right-a...](https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/04/03/cryptographic-right- answers.html)

Your plan is starting out at least sounding like it's compatible with the 2015 "right answers" from ptacek - so _that's_ a good start.

<comment><USER5> Reading keepass documentation, you my might also want to consider protecting sensitive data in memory. See keepass Process Memory Protection. [https://keepass.info/help/base/security.html#secmemprot](https://keepass.info/help/base/security.html#secmemprot)

<comment><USER4> Good advice.

Also it'd be worthwhile investigating how other password manager mobile apps (if you can get the source for them) handle securely storing critical decryption keys in the OS's version of it's secure enclave (if they do). That's a question I have about BitWarden's iOS app that I haven't answered for myself (yet?)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Have you thought of building it on top of pass: [https://www.passwordstore.org/](https://www.passwordstore.org/)

</comment><comment><USER7> Any plans to share the program when it's done? It sounds like something I've wanted to build but never gotten around to. (My idea was an unholy TiddlyWiki / sqlite hybrid so the aesthetics of yours will probably be superior)

</comment><comment><USER8> How it copies/pastes/keys passwords might be a concern. Doe it keep them on the clipboard? How long does it stay open? Have a play with KeePass to get a feel for those.

</comment><comment><USER9> Do it. You'll learn a lot. But afterwards you'll switch to an already existing password manager. Mainly because you can't think of everything, and they have years of experience (and frequently external audits). As other commenters have said, not everything is the storage of data.

If you use the appropiated hash functions (PBKDF2, bcrypt, scrypt, not "AES-256") you are not rolling "your own crypto".

<comment><USER10> > _If you use the appropiated hash functions (PBKDF2, bcrypt, scrypt, not > "AES-256") you are not rolling "your own crypto"._

Hash functions are useless in a password manager; you can't retrieve the password after hashing. That's why you use them for storing passwords on the server side, but a password manager needs to know the password so that it can send it to the server.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> At the very least I would hope open source password managers have some design docs that you could look at.

</comment><comment><USER12> you can role your own.

</comment><comment><USER13> You should definitely roll your own, to be certain that the government is not stealing your secrets. They can send the information to computers on the internets now without your knowledge.</comment>


Bad housing laws have turned San Francisco's tech boom into a crisis for Oakland - <AUTHOR> http://www.vox.com/2016/4/23/11490758/oakland-housing-crisis <comment><USER2> These are the externalities of the housing regulations in the SF bay area. But instead of blaming their rigid regulations and Nimbyism they blame businesses which bring jobs (and people who fill those jobs) and progress to the area --as if they'd prefer decline like in Buffalo, or something similar.

So while we don't want unbridled growth like Shenzhen, we do need the market to meet demand while being mindful of ecological impact.

</comment><comment><USER3> Am I missing something on mobile or is this article is extremely thin?</comment>


Greece debt crisis: Eurozone summit strikes deal - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33503955 <comment><USER2> It's a sticking plaster, delaying the inevitable. I don't suspect the 'new deal' will work and I think the growing discontent among the Greek people will continue to rise, especially under the measure of the latest deal. Greece will remain a protectorate and an insubordinate trouble child under the ECB's whip. Similar scenarios will likely play out in other southern European nation states in the next decade also.

<comment><USER3> What's the alternative?

<comment><USER4> Adopting a free floating currency so that countries aren't tied to other, more powerful countries but can instead let their economies grow at different speeds.

<comment><USER3> I agree that would be the best economic theoretical model, is it in any way feasible realistically though?

Politically?

Even if ignoring the EU side of it (which is nontrivial for various reasons not limited to defense, the vision of the EU, etc), is there a magic wand that would make the Greek government not be populist and wasteful with their own currency?

<comment><USER4> Politically it would be very difficult. The problem with the EU is that it fantasises about being a United States of Europe.

The problem with this is that Europe is not united. We have different languages, culture and histories. This is also what make Europe a beautiful, culturally rich place. The political elites are trying to impose a one size fits all model across Europe which won't work because we are not really all that united.

We don't have a common European demos that means that individual countries are fighting for their own interest and their is no overall strategy for Europe because the electorate doesn't really care about Europe, just what they get from being a part of it.

We really need to go back to being a trading block and to remove all of the political dictact and interference. If we really must have political unions, then they need to be between countries that share a common language so that the people can challenge their political masters collectively. This would mean Britian and Ireland, Germany and Austria, France and Belgium.

<comment><USER3> Where would you draw the line?

Euro as a common currency makes travel super convenient for example, not to mention the Schengen area and open borders.

Same could be said for certain regulations in health and sanitation for example, knowing you could rely on some forms of standards existing (however poorly implemented or not).

Also why would you make artificial barriers based on language, shouldn't the lines be formed based on culture and common understanding instead? Language is not what is preventing common people from participating in politics.

<comment><USER5> >Euro as a common currency makes travel super convenient for example, not to mention the Schengen area and open borders.

Perhaps the various recommendations made in the late 80s and early 90s would be useful to reconsider. Hayek, for example, often suggested that the EEC could make every member nation's currency legal tender in all the others, to create a free market of currencies. He was a big fan of denationalising currencies anyway, and of having currencies compete against each other.

Another proposal on the table for many years was the idea of launching the Euro as a parallel currency to every nation's own currency. So, you could still pay your restaurant bills accross Europe with a single currency if you wanted to, but nations would still be able to fluctuate against it in case of trade surplus or deficit, the very thing that has been putting so much stress on the Euro's frequent deficit members (i.e. Greece, Portugal and Spain), and stress on the Euro itself.

<comment><USER6> > the EEC could make every member nation's currency legal tender in all the > others

Dude may be a great economist, but he clearly has no idea about ergonomics.

Like what, every store has to have twenty different cash drawers? This idea is _spectacularly_ poorly thought out.

<comment><USER5> I'm not sure. I was in Maastricht for a few months in 92 when the treaty was being signed. Maastricht is a border town between Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany. Every bar and restaurant I went to, every market stall, and many shops easily accepted 3 or 4 different currencies. Today this would be even easier, since so many people just pay with plastic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Does anybody have a good source that explains the reasoning behind all of the measures required from Greece?

Many of them make sense to me in terms of removing clientelist structures (e.g. removing "protected" jobs, early retirement incentives, bringing collective bargaining laws in line with the rest of the EU).

However, I don't really understand how increasing VAT or requiring advance payments on corporation tax is going to help in an already suffering economy. I presume this is all about increasing revenue by curbing tax avoidance and closing loopholes, but I can't really find a good source on this.

<comment><USER8> The main problem is the small taxable base, meaning tax evasion in Greece is a serious problem. By increasing VAT you make sure that you actually increase tax revenue quick and in a uniform way across the entire population. It makes your budgeting and forecasting more predictable and reliable.

Yes, it affects the poor the hardest, but at least you can actually budget an increase in aid programs.

If it were to hope on plans to increase tax collection efforts it would then become a very unpredictable and lengthy setup.

Plus, there are already Eastern European countries (see Romania, a country in the proximity of Greece) that applied the VAT increase measure starting with 2010 when it went up to 25% VAT. At the time, Romanian State workers had to also accept a pay cut of 30% of their salary. What I mean to say is that the austerity plan Greece is embarking on right now has been tried already and it will work. The problem is the political will of the Greek elite to give up their privileges.

<comment><USER9> There is nothing to suggest even affluent Greeks have ever wanted to pay their share of the tax burden.

From a Der Spiegel article, five years ago:

      His staff have become very creative when it comes to
      tracking down tax offenders: They use police helicopters
      to fly over Athens' affluent suburbs and make films of
      homes owned by doctors, lawyers and businesspeople. They
      use satellite pictures by Google Earth to locate country
      villas, swimming pools and properties. And these tactics
      have revealed that the suburbs didn't have 324 swimming
      pools, as was reported, but rather 16,974.

      Tax fraud investigators spent a number of weeks on
      nightclub parking lots in Athens and noted down the
      registration numbers of luxury sedans. Their
      investigation revealed that approximately 6,000 car
      owners have vehicles worth €100,000, but only reported
      to the tax authorities that they have an annual income
      of €10,000.[1]

[1] Finding Swimming Pools with Google Earth: Greek Government Hauls in Billions in Back Taxes

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/finding- swimming-...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/finding-swimming- pools-with-google-earth-greek-government-hauls-in-billions-in-back- taxes-a-709703.html)

<comment><USER8> There is a tax provision where if your house is unfinished (by way of not having the house painted or the exterior fully done) then you are tax exempt on the house. Until the house is completed, which might be never.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> What I find worrying is that Greece like a few other countries are in the same situation, just that the other countries did all the things the loaners wanted and with that maintained credibility and credit lines so they could get them directly without having to be so public to get respectable rates.

Those countries did not want Greece to leave as would then place them on the front line and focus and attention upon them in much the same way that the press will interview and talk with those at the front of any queue, be that Apple or any other reason. This is a queue that nobody wants to be at the front.

But the sad part is, this whole process is self-fulfilling and talent leaves Greece and with all the uncertainty and worry put upon them, jobs kinda suffer and only snowballs the situation.

Yet all the focus is upon churning that debt mountain and little or no focus upon rebuilding and aiding the country beyond the standard - sell this and that off without any regard for it is is right for Greece.

In short this whole drama focuses upon mopping up a leaking water main and no focus at all upon resolving that water main and making sure it does not break. Yes the loaners made suggestions and some come about, many have not and all the diverging just only hurts the people more.

FOr the Eurozone and the Euro currency if Greece leaves then the knock on effect could be very detrimental, but that is only because currently Greece is on the front line and those ripples and impact upon the Euro currency not negligible and I do wonder if the amount lost on the Euro and the volume of Euro's in circulation that that amount is greater than all the money Greece has ever owed.

That nobody has worked out I can see and certainly a larger consideration that is being mooted. The Euro has lost around 18% against the American Dollar (USD) in the past year and 10% against the British Pound(GBP).

Still not all atributable to Greece but when the UK/Britain is part the Euroland though not the currency then the impact and amount involved make it clear that the sooner the Greek problem is made a non-problem then the better. Though had they just written of the debt, the actual cost to the Euro-zone countries would perhaps been far less than it has been. Certainly would have had better news in that period and focus upon more productive things.

</comment><comment><USER11> I absolutely love this phrase: _" I don't think the Greek people have been humiliated, nor that the other Europeans have lost face. It is a typical European arrangement."_

<comment><USER12> I think of Brussels as a kind of rage and humble pie buffet. A bit of both for everyone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> How sure is it that Tsipras will be able to get the Greek end passed? Seems rather different than what he campaigned on, so I'm wondering if his party will revolt.

<comment><USER14> The deal is _much_ better for them than bankruptcy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I got this from one of the many forwards but I think it explains bad-debt painted as good-debt cycle well, even though it is a tad superficial. This is not applicable only to the Greek tragedy, but also to Sub-prime and startups burning VC-money.

MARY is the proprietor of a bar in Dublin. She realises that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronise her bar – she will go broke.

To solve this problem, she comes up with a new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.

She keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans).

Word gets around about Mary's 'drink now, pay later' marketing strategy and, as a result, increasing numbers of customers flood into Mary's bar.

Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Dublin — all is starting to look rosy.

By providing her customers freedom from immediate payment demands Mary gets no resistance when, at regular intervals, she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages.

Consequently, Mary's gross sales volume increases massively.

A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognises that these customer debts constitute valuable future assets and increases Mary's borrowing limit.

He sees no reason for any undue concern, since he has the debts of the unemployed alcoholics as collateral.

At the bank's corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions, and transform these customer loans into Drinkbonds and Alkibonds. These securities are then bundled and traded on international security markets.

The new investors don't really understand that the securities being sold to them as 'AAA' secured bonds are really the debts of unemployed alcoholics. They have had a 'rating house' certify they are of good quality.

Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb, and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation's leading brokerage houses.

One day, even though the bond prices are still climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Mary's bar. He so informs Mary.

Mary then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons, but, being unemployed alcoholics, they cannot pay back their drinking debts.

Since Mary cannot fulfil her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy. So she now is broke.

The bar closes and the 11 employees lose their jobs.

Overnight, Drinkbonds and Alkibonds drop in price by 90%.

The collapsed bond asset value destroys the bank's liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans, thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community.

The suppliers of Mary's bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms' pension funds in the various Bond securities. They find they are now faced with having to write-off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds.

Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations. Her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.

Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and bailed out by a multi-billion euro, no- stringsattached cash infusion from their cronies in government.

The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed, middle-class, non-drinkers who have never been in Mary's bar.

</comment><comment><USER16> Using the problem to extend the problem.

Pragmatism is a scarce resource in our time.

<comment><USER14> The EU found a very pragmatic solution which spares Greece to become a second Argentina.

<comment><USER12> Isn't the Argentinean case lauded as an example of successful default?

<comment><USER17> I would argue it'll be prove more succesful eventually as well. It's better to start over from a clean slate (even if potential investors might become scared to invest in a defaulted country) compared to becoming perpetual financial slaves, which I think will be the future of Greece if they choose to stay in the Eurozone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is the agreement document: [http://t.co/4OeNBKtyqv](http://t.co/4OeNBKtyqv)

<comment><USER18> The transfer of $50bn in state assets to an "an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means" is a fairly significant feature of the deal that doesn't seem to be receiving a lot of attention.

<comment><USER14> $50bn is an overly optimistic assumption. $7bn is realistic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Well, I guess this is what happens when you elect a bunch of clowns from the political fringe - no expertise, no negotiating ability, no realistic goals, no reasonable promises.

This seems to be the worst deal offered to any Greek government yet, including the deal previously offered to Tsipras.

</comment><comment> k-mcgrady Can anyone explain how things got this bad? I've been following this but it's gone on so long now I've no idea why Greece got hit so hard relative to other countries in Europe.

edit: Thanks for the explanations.

<comment><USER20> There's a long but entertaining article on it here

[http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing- bonds-...](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010)

Sample quotes:

>"How in the hell is it possible for a member of the euro area to say the deficit was 3 percent of G.D.P. when it was really 15 percent?" a senior I.M.F. official asks. "How could you possibly do something like that?"

>In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn't take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job.

> The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years > ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos > pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece's rail passengers > into taxicabs: it's still true. "We have a railroad company which is > bankrupt beyond comprehension,"

<comment><USER21> I had posted a link to that and then removed it as although the article is highly entertaining it is also very one-sided.

Now actual reality might be one-sided but I've sort of come to the view that _how_ the Greeks got into this mess is almost irrelevant at this point and the focus should be on what concrete measures can be done to save Greece as a functioning country while giving the best possible deal to their creditors.

Spending too much time on digging over the mistakes both sides made just leads to name calling and extreme polarization of arguments - look at previous discussion on HN on this topic.

<comment><USER20> I agree it's a bit one sided as portraying Greece as mucked up and also it's old history and one should focus on how to fix things now. The same author wrote a similar article on what went wrong in Iceland "its debt is 850 percent of G.D.P" and it's interesting that Iceland took a completely different policy to Greece's so far, defaulting, and is doing quite well really.

I think the austerity inflicted on Greece is kind of dumb. They should try to keep up the aggregate spending so the economy doesn't crater. But by encouraging new business etc to provide jobs for the 50% unemployed young people rather than paying huge salaries and pensions to incumbent government employees.

<comment><USER21> Worth noting that the situation in Iceland was completely different. Iceland had a few investment banks who decided to borrow vast sums and buy lots of dodgy assets, the government wasn't really directly involved (apart perhaps from poor regulation).

In Greek crisis the government is the main actor and the Greek banks were actually fairly well behaved.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This was a surprisingly happy article about the deal, other venues have had a different tone (here represented by their headline):

Bloomberg: "Greece Capitulates to Creditors' Demands to Cling to Euro" euobserver: "Greece capitulates at EU summit"</comment>


The Importance of Personal Development and Avoiding Toxic People - <AUTHOR> https://www.efor-real.com/6121/importance-personal-development-avoiding-toxic-people/ <comment><USER2> Here here to the avoiding toxic people. What I largely consider the turning point of my life was because the person who helped my out of a bad situation and pointed me in a better direction said something akin to

"You're a loser because you are hanging out with other losers. Who ever you spend time with are the people you are like. Why don't you try hanging out with some new people?" ~ K

Forever thankful for his words</comment>


Chernobyl: Horrifying, masterful television that sears on to your brain - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/29/chernobyl-horrifying-masterful-television-that-sears-on-to-your-brain <comment><USER2> Waiting for the cinematic version of the TVA disaster that released more radiation than any other event i n the USA. Oh, wait, thats coal.</comment>


HN: I'll run a marathon to build whatever you decide on tweet.in - <AUTHOR>

I haven't been able to come up with any strong ideas, so I'd like to give this group the opportunity. It may be a fun exercise, or a nightmare, but either way it'll be something different for a little while.
Submit your ideas and vote the best ones up to the top. Once a field of ideas has been established and I think a winner emerges I shall start a marathon session until completion.
Challenge me with wild ideas, or suggest simple tools to improve upon whatever already exists.. but whatever it is, explain why it would be valuable to you and others.
I'm open to the idea of giving the person who submits the winning idea a stake in the project, but as I'm in the UK it may be difficult to do so formally. Feel free to discuss whatever you think would be appropriate and I'll do my best to come up with something fair to reward your creativity.
Let's be tweetin! <comment><USER2> You could build a twitter search app, which searches and returns real time news. It should be capable of categorizing tweets about an event as headline(MJ's dead), more info at(latimes.com), comments.

In short it should search twitter for real news and display it in a traditional blog style. Perhaps, it could even display excerpts from the info source site. The comments display should be real time so that you can in effect discuss the news with totally random people without having to follow them or anything.

A killer feature would be an up/down voting system, so that any noise in the news items gets immediately voted out. Btw killer domain name. Perhaps use "What's tweetin now?" as a tag line.

EDIT: Why it would be valuable: Ask Jeff Goldblum :P ( [http://technologizer.com/2009/06/25/twitter-the-fastest- way-...](http://technologizer.com/2009/06/25/twitter-the-fastest-way-to-get- informed-or-misinformed/) )

EDIT2: You could also add a user rating system like the one at stackoverflow, in order to get the bots out and give more weightage to more popular users.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting idea and I can think of a novel interface for this. I upvoted you, and that's where by influence will end.. for now :)

<comment><USER2> Well if you're interested in fleshing it out, I might be able to provide some help with the natural language parsing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Does Wolfram|Alpha have an API? if so, you could do a pretty cool question/answer thing.

      erikwiffin: @tweetin why is the sky blue?
      tweetin: @erikwiffin The sky's blue color is a result of the effect of Rayleigh scattering.  Shorter-wavelength blue light is... http://bit.ly/3qaEo

tweet.in could be a searchable/rankable/commentable database of all the searches that it has performed.

<comment><AUTHOR> There is an API so I believe your suggestion ought to be possible. Just to play devil's advocate though; wouldn't people overestimate Wolfram's capabilities and expect the bot to be able to answer all sorts of difficult questions that it can't grok, particularly about ongoing political/cultural events which seems to be the lifeblood of Twitter, thereby making the service look kind of lame and useless..?

I'll do whatever gets the most votes but it seems this thread was forsaken. Would have been nice to see more discussion/refinery!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Some sort of user quality measurement / recommendation engine thingy.

There's a lot of bullshit on Twitter these days, we need tools to sift through it to find the good stuff. Not Twitter's "Suggested Users" list, which mostly contains celebrities and companies.

There's a lot of metrics you could use:

* negative points for "follow-baiting", i.e. following hundreds or thousands of random users, hoping they'll follow you back, then unfollowing the people who don't follow you.

* number of user's Tweets favorited (normalized by number of followers?)

* average follower's rating. kind of like PageRank.

These are just a few off the top of my head.

<comment><USER5> There is a real need for a reliability metric. For instance, a lot people recently tweeted rumors about Jeff Goldblum dying. Penalize those people. Other people actually were debunking the rumors, reward them. It will help quality to use an NLP grammar parser I believe. Every time there are rumors/scams on twitter you have a chance to improve your metric.

<comment><USER2> Problem with an NLP parser is since twitter restricts to 140 characters a lot of people don't post proper grammatically correct sentences. This makes the parser much more complex since the parser will then have to guess the intended meaning. A tweet like "Jeff Goldblum???" would be almost impossible for the parser to understand.

<comment><USER5> There really aren't that many ways to say "I heard Jeff goldblum just died???". You could probably make a list of like 100 different ways and get good accuracy. In fact, question marks alone are a good indication the person didn't do any private verification.

<comment><USER2> If you were going to create 100 different rules for that one sentence, imagine the costs of scaling up. It simply is not viable. The only way to make this possible is to maybe train the system for a corpus consisting of about a million tweets. But the problem with that would be that those million tweets would first have to be individually tagged manually by humans.

<comment><USER5> But how many ways can a rumor be stated? Say the rumor is someone got married: "did so-and-so just get married???". If you make a 100 sentence structures to look for could you reuse them for multiple rumors?

<comment><USER2> The problem is not how many different ways a rumor can be written, it's how many rumors can be written. Esp. considering the fact that you have websites which automate the process of rumor-manufacturing...

<comment><USER5> Thanks for your comments, I agree that something automated is more efficient and robust. However, I was also thinking doing something manual might be a quick way to build and launch a site, even if it has poor accuracy. If you want to discuss it further, send me an email. Its in my profile.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I heard a rumor that people use twitter like a search engine -- ask a question, get answers.

Make a bot that records such questions, and their answers, and then make a search engine over the records.

Expert Mode: discern between questions like Am I fat?? vs. What is a cheap but nice hotel in LA? -- although it maybe funny not to.

Is there some kind of tweet stream you can process for this?? It seems like it would hammer the twitter infrastructure so it may not be coool.

</comment><comment><USER7> I think the ".in" is perfect for some location specific service. You could build urls like tweet.in/London etc. There are already some services that show you twitter-users in some specific city or area, the problem is that these people do not always tweet about their city, so it's almost useless.

I once thought of a service that lets you add a location to a tweet and a short url. That service would create a map with all your tweets composed in that way.

</comment><comment><USER8> "Tweeting, inverted".

From my knowledge of twitter (have NEVER used it), it allows one person or entity to publish messages for everyone to see.

What if several people want to publish messages TO someone or some entity (like a company), and want them to be seen publicly? You create a channel for that entity on tweet.in and tweet your message into the channel. Others will be free to join in. It'll be like one of those public boards where you can leave messages on particular topics.

So, for example, you'll have messages for the Iranian leaders, condolence messages for MJ, product feedback on Vista, etc.

<comment><USER9> Hashtags (#brand, #name, #topic, etc.) have become the de facto means of doing this. I'm not sure what a tool could do to make that more effective.

I think the magic of Twitter has partly been its ability to be anything people want it to be. Just like Zombo.com.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> You could build an app that doesn't have anything to do with tweeting. But that may be too hard to come up with.

<comment><USER2> Not to mention it would be an utter waste of a killer domain name.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> You might also run into copyright/trademark issues with that domain-name. see: [http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/01/twitter-grows- uncomfort...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/01/twitter-grows- uncomfortable-with-the-use-of-the-word-tweet-in-applications/)

<comment><AUTHOR> This is totally contrary to what was said last year: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=682790>

I'm very disappointed by their cack-handedness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> tweet.in definetely sounds like you should be focusing on the publishing of tweets than the consuming.

one thing I have thought about doing with twitter is "lifestreaming" but properly, I want to mention gigs I have gone to, films I have watched, books I have read, bands i like. I may rate them, write a short review. but I would like to be able to go back over and see my history without silly searches</comment>


The Eternal Life of the Instant Noodle - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_instant_noodle <comment><USER2> While I do eat instant noodles, I prefer the other kind, the ones that are sometimes called egg noodles (at least here in India).

Not particularly for the egg content (which is low), but because, while instant noodles are tasty (somewhat, and more so when you add spices and veggies to them, which I do), I feel they do not satisfy hunger for long.

But the other (egg) kind both seems to be tastier (all other things being the same) and satiates you for somewhat longer.

Maybe it is due to the egg kind being made with atta (whole-wheat flour), or something close to it.

At least Maggi, Top Ramen and such instant noodle brands are made with maida (refined wheat flour).

People in India often think and say that atta is both tastier and better for health (due to more nutrients and fiber). More so in the villages.

I used to do some farming long back, and have heard many villagers say that they prefer to eat only chapatis / rotis made of atta (particularly in Maharashtra and central Indian states like Madhya Pradesh), and I agree with that.

I only make a rare exception if I want to eat chole bhature at a restaurant, where the bhaturas (deep-fried) are usually made with maida. And I still have to finish them fast, because they get tougher and difficult to eat within seconds.

Just my opinion and 2c. Interested to know if others have noticed any such difference.

<comment><USER3> Egg noodles are mostly flour or maida based. Atta noodles will be marketed as whole wheat noodles.

<comment><USER4> Where can you buy these atta ramen? In Canada, any wheat flour that isn't atta, has various "enrichments" added in, such as ferrous sulfate and B vitamin complexes which mess with your appetite and inflame your intestines.

<comment> semi-extrinsic To the downvoters: please review e.g. Ch. 6: "Flour Technology and Dough Conditioners" of Michel Suas' classic textbook "Advanced Bread and Pastry". Or check the Technical Data Sheet of your local flour producer, you will find i.a. niacin, iron in some complex, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin and folic acid additives.

<comment><USER5> People aren't downvoting for the contents of the flour, but for i) the claim that these "inflame your intestines" and ii) the claim that whole wheat noodles don't contain these same additives.

<comment><USER4> In Canada, whole wheat flour doesn't contain these additives. I spoke to the CFIA (Canada Food Inspection Agency) and they told me their rules and regulations. Whole wheat doesn't have additives, anything else does. America may be a different story, but I don't live there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This reminds me of a YouTube show i watched recently where "French guy Alex" ultimately makes his own instant noodles.

Turns out, most of the one you purchase are deep fried to quickly get the water out as part of the manufacturing. This means you can technically make them a lot less calorie dense if you dry them in hot air.

[https://youtu.be/JyZjoJcvHvE](https://youtu.be/JyZjoJcvHvE)

<comment><USER7> Yes, yes! @FrenchGuyCooking. Jacques Pépin and him had some back-and-forth YT response videos.

<comment> semi-extrinsic The omelettes, oh my. Even though I enjoy making omelettes and have been practicing for a decade, the ones those guys can magic up make mine look like a 7-year-old's attempt

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I went to the Cup Noodles museum in Japan a few months ago. I thought it was extremely interesting. They had all the things I would expect to see at a Cup Noodles museum; e.g. history, products, biographies, company troubles followed by towering success. On top of all that, they let you make your own personalized Cup Noodles and also have a restaurant that sells Cup Noodles from the Thai, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean markets (it seems India was in there too, but I don't remember for sure). The best part was the Cup Noodles ice cream. It was curry flavored ice cream, served in a styrofoam cup, and contained all the freeze-dried Cup Noodles meats and vegetables as crunchy toppings. It wasn't the best thing in the world, but it wasn't half bad either.

</comment><comment><USER9> Yep, one day realized I could make Top Ramen in the espresso machine and it was game over for those times I run out of food money but am way too unmotivated to go back to work -- always have some quarters laying around for the laundry and they're so cheap I can survive for a week on something like $3.

Food of the (bad, spiteful) gods I tell you...

</comment><comment><USER10> Here in Japan we frequently eat ramen noodles for dinner, although not the instant kind (well, sometimes even the instant ones). There are some fancier ramen that you add all sorts of fresh toppings to (wakame, pork, eggs etc..) and it tastes awesome.

</comment><comment><USER11> I'd really enjoy a deep dive into the different types of instant noodles. Obviously the ones that come in a styrofoam cup are one type, add water, get soggy mess, but there are quite a few types of instant noodles that are fancier, with multiple steps, added oils, separately packaged ingredients, and so forth.

Does anyone know of such a comparison?

<comment><USER12> I'm kind of addicted to Nongshim spicy ramen, it's pretty good.

It may not count as top shelf, but Nongshim's products aren't bottom shelf (that honor goes to Maruchan.)

<comment><USER13> The mistakes people make with Maruchan are cooking it too long and using the whole seasoning packet. Keep those noodles springy and supplement some small portion of the seasoning with condiments you already have.

<comment><USER14> Agreed, 3 minutes makes soggy noodles. I like the bar to just be broken up so the noodles still have some texture and I usually toss out the included seasoning packet and toss in a packet of the red-pepper flakes that come with delivery pizza. The parmesan of the same variety works pretty well too, as does a couple dashes of wasabi, soy, fish sauce, siriacha, the list goes on and on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I was surprised to learn that instant noodles were created by an immigrant to Japan. I always thought Japan doesn't have many immigrants, and makes it hard for them to achieve anything within Japanese culture.

<comment><USER16> I looked up and Ando moved to Japan in 1933. Taiwan was under Japanese rule between 1895 and 1945. So in a strict sense, he wasn't an immigrant. Many Koreans also moved to Japan when Korea was under Japanese rule.

Many returned to Korea after Korea gained independence. But many also stayed. One of the descendants of these Korean-Japanese is Masayoshi Son, founder of Softbank.

I've read some interview of him when he discussed his early years. He recalls riding in the back of a hand cart pulled by his parents (or grandparents) who were going around town in Japan, picking up discarded food trash from trashcans outside homes/restaurants to feed to the pigs. Remember, there was no disposal unit in kitchen sinks, so food trash was thrown into trash. This was early 1960s, as he was born in 1957. It was probably one of the worst ways to make a living, but as a Korean-Japanese, that was about what they could do.

Many were blocked from getting a job in the Japanese corporations, which is one of the reasons many Pachinkos in Japan are owned by Korean-Japanese, or so I heard.

Masayoshi Son specifically recalled having a hard time getting a business loan, until a sympathetic Japanese banker gave him that loan.

Certain irony for sure. Coming from Korean-Japanese family who was considered lowest, to be 2nd richest Japanese citizen.

Btw, while looking up facts, I just discovered another Korean-Japanese who is one of top 20 richest individuals, Chang-Woo Han. Never knew that.

Ahh, the wonders of internet.

EDIT:

Clicked on of the links in the wiki and found this article

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/02/16/national/sons-r...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/02/16/national/sons- rags-to-riches-career-impresses-by-the-numbers/#.W68akhNKhGo)

 _Son was born in 1957 to Korean parents in a flood-prone area of Saga Prefecture, where poor Korean immigrants lived in a cluster of shacks, many by keeping pigs in the house and making bootleg alcohol, according to "Ampon," a biography of Son by journalist Shinichi Sano.

In the book, interviews with Son's relatives shed light on his upbringing. His cousin recounts how he often caught a preschool-age Son "studying like nobody's business while he was soaked up to his knees in a shack full of floodwater smelling of feces."

His early dwelling was miserable, and his Korean descent made him a target for discrimination, overshadowing his early years. But Son's determination probably surfaced in his early teens, his biographers say.

Sano, for example, describes interesting episodes in which Son transferred, in the middle of his first semester in junior high school, to a more reputable school at his own wish and did all the paperwork himself. In another episode, a 15-year-old Son, now in high school, asked his third-year homeroom teacher from junior high to a restaurant and begged him to become the president of a cram school he planned to set up. The teacher turned him down._

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> They are quite common in asian restaurant dishes too, I notice Korean in particular. I also know people who eat them dry like a crisp.

I think a lot of the weight lost in the "noodle me" experiment was muscle mass. It it's not uncommon to add an egg to instant noodles.

</comment><comment><USER18> Indomie Hot and Spicy...

Or Mama brand Tom Yum... With a fried egg and spring onion...

</comment><comment><USER4> If there are any brands of whole wheat (unenriched), air fried ramen noodles available in Canada or North America, please post here. Been wanting them for 3 years now. Enriched flour has been linked to diabetes and obesity by some pretty dramatic studies. These links below are not the studies themselves, but summaries of current knowledge and research, put in context.

HOW FOOD ENRICHMENT MADE US FAT, DIABETIC, AND CHRONICALLY DISEASED [http://freetheanimal.com/2015/05/enrichment-diabetic- chronic...](http://freetheanimal.com/2015/05/enrichment-diabetic- chronically.html)

IRON, FOOD ENRICHMENT AND THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING [http://freetheanimal.com/2015/06/enrichment-theory- everythin...](http://freetheanimal.com/2015/06/enrichment-theory- everything.html)

HOW FOOD ENRICHMENT PROMOTES OBESITY ("THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING" WIDER AND DEEPER) [http://freetheanimal.com/2016/05/enrichment-promotes- everyth...](http://freetheanimal.com/2016/05/enrichment-promotes- everything.html)

<comment><USER19> Try to find an Indian grocery store nearby. Maggi sells atta noodles which is whole wheat. You can also buy them off of Amazon

<comment><USER4> Thank you, I'll take a look. I thought they were cooked in oil, how would I find out if they were air or oil fried?</comment></comment></comment>


Divorce and Occupation - <AUTHOR> http://flowingdata.com/2017/07/25/divorce-and-occupation <comment><USER2> I remember for a school project long ago I had to interview a bunch of people in nursing homes. Many of them had been in marriages that spanned several decades so I asked them how they made it work.

Shockingly everyone said basically the same thing: agreeableness. Supposedly, having low or nonexistent levels of disagreement, whether financial, moral or otherwise is the key.

So with this said, I'd be curious to know how your profession affects your agreeableness (especially in respect to power dynamics). I wish I asked if they _choose_ to agree, e.g compromise, or if they and their partner were naturally agreeable.

<comment><USER3> Been married for more than 20 years now. The advice I give younger co-workers who are just getting married is "You can be right or you can be happy."

<comment><USER4> I am not married, and I am in my twenties, and I don't get why people are signing a contract with high termination fees just so they can compromise on everything for the next 4 decades. Somebody please enlighten me, why are we still stuck with this 2000yrs old tribal behavior instead of moving on with a more modern approach?

Edit: controversial arguments come with downvotes, but I'd really like to know your opinion on this.

<comment><USER5> > ...I don't get why people are signing a contract with high termination fees > just so they can compromise on everything for the next 4 decades

There are lots of replies about how the spouses benefit from marriage, so I'll add a new reason: children, especially "oops" babies.

About half of all pregnancies are unplanned, regardless of marital status. It's honorable to explicitly define the relationship so the current and future beings affected by a sexual relationship are well cared for. Because of economies of scale, the most efficient way to care for a family is under one roof. There are direct reasons why the poverty level of kids is directly related to the marital status of their biological parents.

The legal contract and the social contract (wedding vows in front of all your favorite people) are ways to ensure the definition of the relationship is enforced by all prudent means.

Of course, you _could_ have sex hundreds and thousands of times during your fertile years hoping that a baby doesn't happen. And you could just get married once a birth is imminent. But over the millennia, most cultures have found that an already established marriage is the best place for a pregnancy.

Anyway, I want nothing but the best for all the single-parent and divorced families out there, but it's not empirically controversial to claim that kids born to stably married couples have the best outcomes.

<comment><USER6> Including marriage in this explanation implies the wrong causative effect though. "Stably married" just means a stable relationship.

Whether you have a ceremony or not is not a causative predictor of a stable relationship.

<comment><USER5> That sounds like an empirical claim. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

The evidence in the other direction showing marital status is linked with child poverty is pretty clear. Census data shows that poverty rates are five times higher for children of single mothers (1).

Maybe the mechanism isn't clear or something, but the data is stark enough to deserve an explanation about why marital status _isn 't_ important to kids.

(1) [http://educationnext.org/files/ednext_XV_2_mclanahan_fig04.j...](http://educationnext.org/files/ednext_XV_2_mclanahan_fig04.jpg)

<comment><USER7> I took the parent comment to mean that being married itself shouldn't provide any more benefits than just being in a stable, long-term relationship. To your point, I agree that having a marriage ceremony probably helps maintain the relationship due to social pressure.

I would be interested to see research comparing the children of married couples to those of unmarried stable long-term relationships. My hypothesis is that the outcomes would be similar.

<comment><USER5> > I took the parent comment to mean that being married itself shouldn't > provide any more benefits than just being in a stable, long-term > relationship.

Understood. I still think it's fair for the burden of proof to fall on the people trying to explain away current demographic trends. Just because possible mechanisms don't line up with expectations doesn't mean the outcomes aren't actually happening.

And, at some point, there is a distinction without a difference when talking about long-term monogamous cohabitations that do or do not involve a wedding ceremony. In common law, it would be a marriage either way. Maybe the real question is why common law marriages aren't recognized more often now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Do they correct for age? How? It seems like they're just considering the raw divorce rate per year, but obviously software developers have a different age distribution than some of the established industry jobs, so the comparison doesn't seem fair.

The same folks show divorce rate by age: [https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for- differe...](https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for-different- groups/)

<comment><USER9> This is a great point. Married people who are e.g. doctors are going to have a minimum age way above that of e.g. flight attendants, and that's definitely relevant to odds of divorce. Either they were married before choosing their positions, and therefore have already been married for quite a while, or they got married older, dropping their divorce risk.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> > If someone who is already a physician, quits and takes a job as a bartender > or telemarketer, it doesn't mean their chances of divorce changes.

Uh, I'd say it almost certainly does significantly change their chance of divorce. If you go from having a steady, high income to variable work with high uncertainty around your next paycheck of course it will put more stress on the marriage and substantially increase the risk of divorce.

<comment><USER11> Right, and even beyond the income issues, that kind of transition is _itself_ unusual, and correlated with all kinds of other negative events. That tends to happen because they lost their medical license, or were embroiled in a scandal that made them unwanted anywhere, or had a major decline in performance (itself due to addiction or chronic condition, etc).

To be sure, it could very well be that they had some "come to Jesus" moment and decided that's what they really wanted to do in life, and it increased their general happiness and willingness to put effort into all their other relationships. But that, I would think, is the exception, not the rule.

Edit: Though it might be correct to say that the job-change is not a _causal driver_ of the divorce, but merely affected by the real cause.

<comment><USER9> > _To be sure, it could very well be that they had some "come to Jesus" moment > and decided that's what they really wanted to do in life, and it increased > their general happiness and willingness to put effort into all their other > relationships. But that, I would think, is the exception, not the rule._

And even this would make them a non-central example of physicians (and bartenders). Most doctors are heavily committed after 10+ years of education; many bartenders are not "living their dream" and expect to move on. Someone who willingly makes that swap because they've found their true calling is incomparable to the average for both careers.

<comment><USER12> _Most doctors are heavily committed after 10+ years of education_

This is an interesting claim, because I've read various things claiming the opposite (that medicine is a career with a high rate of people leaving it, because the eventual pay and working conditions are simply horrid).

<comment><USER13> The medical career field comprises more than just doctors.

<comment><USER12> The comment I replied to specifically used the word "doctors".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Armchair hypothesis: these careers are highly correlated to extro- and introversion. Introverts are content in their relationships and/or less frequently get themselves into situations that lead to divorce. Call it the nerd coefficient.

<comment><USER15> Armchair conclusion: false. Introverts are more likely to use online dating sites and engage down other avenues that would not be natural, but rather virtual.

I don't know many of my jock friends growing up that had a "girlfriend" in an MMO, as an example.

<comment><USER16> Virtual socialization is more of a shy extrovert thing. An introvert will get exhausted after a lot of socialization, virtual or physical.

<comment><USER9> Online dating sounds incredibly _high_ socialization to me. You scan through dozens of people in quick succession and interact with many of them. Talking to a single stranger in real life is way less demanding than that.

You're right to distinguish shyness from extroversion; as someone who became less shy without becoming any less introverted, it's not a clear association.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I find it amusing that the correlation vs causation point has morphed into arguing correlation is anti-causal (which is worse). I think if someone goes from being a doctor to being a bartender their divorce rate might be affected. I saw another data source that said the number one cause of divorce was financial so the correlation may actually be somewhat causal. Financial stress is brutal because it leads to conversations like cutting down on recreation and leisure and reducing spend on hobbies and downtime. This creates a kind of feedback loop where life adds stress and the resources to remove it are taken away because you no longer get to spend $X/month on your recreation because you needed to pay $Z on something else.

<comment><USER18> Yep, sick of the "correlation is anti-causal". I assume correlation is causal (which is usually the case) until shown otherwise, which this article did not show.

<comment><USER19> Most criminals have drunk milk.

Most criminals have been to school.

Most criminals have worn sneakers.

Should we conclude that milk, school and sneakers are causal factors in crime? Should we eliminate these 3 things from society?

<comment><USER20> I don't think you understand correlation. For crime and milkdrinking to correlate, criminals would need to drink more (or less) milk than non- criminals. A better example would be: umbrella-carrying and windshield-wiping tend to correlate, but they are both actually caused by a hidden factor: rain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> That's because financial problems are the main reason for divorce. Dual engineering incomes should not have those problems.

Happily married to another engineer for 15 years. Now engineers also like to argue, so put two of them in the same household and see what happens. We do argue about finances, but it's me not wanting to spend money.

<comment><USER21> I think it's also possible that engineering-minded people choose their partners based on more pragmatic reasons, tend to think more about the long term. In opposition to choosing someone primarily based on physical attraction and sexual compatibility, or some mystical belief in love.

IMO, engineers less likely to do things the average couple might do, such as moving in together after a month, planning marriage six months in, and having a baby one year in, they're more likely to be patient and make more careful choices.

<comment><USER22> Marrying someone you aren't particularly attracted to or in love with sounds like a recipe for divorce to me.

<comment><USER23> I used to think that but it turns out that arranged marriages are quite successful: [http://www.statisticbrain.com/arranged-marriage- statistics/](http://www.statisticbrain.com/arranged-marriage-statistics/)

Obvious it's not as simple as comparing the divorce rate of love vs arranged marriages, cultural factors play a huge part but from what I've seen in India the fact that they're committed to making it work seems to make for happy couples.

<comment><USER24> perhaps the type of person that would agree to an arranged marriage is also the type not to object or try and break such a public contract/agreement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Can someone explain to me what the x-axis means in the "Divorce Rate By Occupation" chart? It seems to be just a random distribution from -1 to 1, because the author wanted to use dots to represent each title. I suppose that's a very space-efficient way of representing the data, but it's also pretty tedious to have to mouse over everything, and it doesn't work well on a small screen.

Might have been better just to put this in a list.

<comment><USER26> It's a beeswarm plot, linked in the footnotes: [https://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/6526445e2b44303eebf21da3b662732...](https://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/6526445e2b44303eebf21da3b6627320)

As such, the x-axis is a metric about the _population_ , not the individual. I happen to use them a fair bit as I find them easier to intuit density from than the alternative, which is to plot on a single line with transparency.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> As a software engineer who's girlfriend is a doctor, I don't think either of us would have time to be chasing anyone else around. I wonder if that accounts for any of it.

<comment><USER5> Well, to support that thesis with negative examples, it seems being a bartender, flight attendant, or massage therapist isn't great for a marriage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> > _If someone who is already a physician, quits and takes a job as a bartender > or telemarketer, it doesn't mean their chances of divorce changes._

Of course it does. Just try it.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'm a little surprised the military divorce rate is so low. With the long periods of separation, I'd expect it to be higher.

<comment><USER30> It's actually a crime for military members to commit adultery, and it's taken pretty seriously (at least in the units I've been in). One can imagine that the penalty for adultery has an impact on divorce rates.

ETA: It's also illegal even if you are single but sleep with somebody who's married (whether the married person is military or not).

<comment><USER31> Curious, do they make allowances for swingers and the like, where the extramarital sex is consensual?

<comment><USER32> The government has to prove that a person's conduct has direct negative impact on the military. If the acts are consensual, but it causes social problems later that's enough to get the person in trouble

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> My brief interpretation of the data: The more opportunities to switch and to cheat the higher the divorce rate (eg bartender, stewardess, dancer). And the lower the salary the higher the divorce rate (guess the financial pressure creates extra tension).

</comment><comment><USER34> It doesn't give any information about the spouse's occupation or the combination of occupations in the former union.

A single earning bartender with an unemployed spouse should have like a 99% divorce rate, according to this chart.

Anecdotally..... I could see that.

</comment><comment><USER35> I wonder if there's an inflection point as income increases. A divorced colleague once joked: why is divorce so expensive -- because it's worth it.

Similarly, I'm sure there are many poor people longing for divorce, but they can't afford it.

</comment><comment><USER36> So what happens if a physician marries a bartender? Does that increase their chance of divorce or decrease it? (Maybe a silly question but it would be interesting to dig into this shallow report with a much more critical eye.)

<comment><USER37> Increases it, obviously; a physician and a bartender who are dating but not married have a zero percent chance of getting divorced!

<comment><USER38> > a physician and a bartender who are dating but not married have a zero > percent chance of getting divorced!

That's only true if they also have a zero percent chance of getting married.

Getting married will still increase the risk of divorce, because it bumps the odds of getting married up to 100%, but two dating unmarried people have, in general, a nonzero risk of getting divorced.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> It's all good and dandy until they start fighting about spaces vs tabs, or OOP vs FP ;)

<comment><USER40> Ha, we have a floor mounted toilet-roll holder. I move it because my feet bang against it; my wife - with smaller feet - moves it back.

Tabs vs spaces indeed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> You are missing an axis. It is auto-regressive in time. If you include age of the marriage as well as employment, it should split out substantially better.

</comment><comment><USER42> The same site has another page on divorce rate by age, and allows you to look at it by employment status, race and education level[1].

It's mostly as you'd expect, but the bit that I thought was most interesting was the "Not in Labor Force" breakdown. In that, women and men have almost identical rates until the age of 60 (retirement?) at which point the male divorce rate increases much more quickly than women.

At 60, both are 13%, at 70 it is 24% vs 28% and by 80 it is 31% vs 38%.

The causal analysis of this is difficult: male participation in the workforce is higher until retirement, so there it is hard to judge how much of it is _because_ of retirement and how much is couples who would have divorced anyway and just happen to have employment status change.

[1] [https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for- differe...](https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/30/divorce-rates-for-different- groups/)

</comment><comment><USER43> The author didn't considered some obvious correlations, maybe because it would be more difficult to get some data about it.

It looks like that occupations that promote more social interactions are more prone to divorce. I also spotted that occupations with weird or irregular work hours also have higher divorce rates.

I didn't understand what the x-axis means.

</comment><comment><USER44> WTH is a Gaming Manager?

<comment><USER45> My first thought is in video games development, but it could be a position in a casino, which would make it closer to the bartender occupation in some respects and maybe why they're ranked alongside them in divorces.

<comment><USER5> I was also guessing pit boss or something like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I'd love to see the %divorced per level of education normalised for age at marriage.

I am mankind a wild ass assumption that people marry less while in school, hence this could be due to late marriage as much as education per se.

</comment><comment><USER47> Wonder if dating is also tougher for these less outward-facing professions, so they'd rather stick together than be thrown into the meat market again?

</comment><comment><USER48> The bifurcation in the legal category is fascinating (4 data points).

I'm guessing that the higher two are "lawyers" and the lower two are the roles with better work life balance that attract lower ego, more balanced personalities like paralegals.

</comment><comment><USER49> Need to account for both age, location, and salary as variables in the model, then see what's left over for occupation. We know that occupation is correlated with salary which is correlated with divorce rates. Need to account for this!

</comment><comment><USER50> Nice visualization but I would like to see some follow up studies - since I'm already aware of this data. Track more things like cultural background, how many family members they grew up with etc...

</comment><comment><USER51> This data disproves an urban legend that university professors are most likely to get a divorce. Reasoning for that being that their job involves a lot of contact with young and attractive people :)

</comment><comment><USER52> I don't know what it was about this particular presentation of data but I found it much easier to read than other stuff I see on here, so kudos to the author for that.

</comment><comment><USER53> Interesting that a massage therapist has among the highest divorce rate, but a physical therapist has among the lowest. Those jobs don't seem that different.

</comment><comment><USER54> Does anyone know how to extrach the raw data list from the site? There are quite a few numbers there that I'd like to know...

</comment><comment><USER55> I would love to see Police officers and Firefighters... anecdotally, I would expect a very high divorce rate.

<comment><USER56> I've seen other studies that have suggested lower divorce rates than would be expected for police officers, and that divorce rate varies based on specialty and experience. More experienced police officers are less likely to divorce, as are those working in supervisory roles.

I would provide a link but it was years ago when I read this. I also remember there was some kind of hitch in the data that may have undercounted divorces, but it was consistent across all professions that were part of the data set.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> because we are always fucking working. I know, I was half of a computer engineering couple.

</comment><comment><USER58> TIL : Phlebotmists

</comment><comment><USER59> Women initiated nearly 70% of all divorces. [https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new- resilience/2015...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new- resilience/201508/women-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why)

Unemployment Can Spell Divorce for Men, But Not Women [https://www.livescience.com/14705-husbands-employment- threat...](https://www.livescience.com/14705-husbands-employment-threatens- marriage.html)

One might say that women who get high status men (high salary) choose to keep them and those who get low status choose to find new new opportunities.

<comment><USER60> Pure anecdata here. My dad became kind of a jerk when he got fired, years ago: he became a bitter pessimist, jealous at my mother (she was working) and desperate because he couldn't do what he was supposed to do (feed the family!). This lead to a divorce, after some time.

What I mean is that possibly men and women react very differently to a situation of unemployment. As the article says,

> The findings reveal that despite more women entering the workplace, the > pressure on husbands to be breadwinners largely remains.

Could it be that unemployed men become really difficult people to deal with, in most circumstances?

<comment><USER61> > unemployed men become really difficult people to deal with

You confuse cause and effect. Difficult people end up being unemployed.</comment></comment></comment>


FAA pushes back on Boeing exemption for 787 safety flaw - <AUTHOR> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/faa-pushes-back-on-boeing-exemption-for-787-safety-f-449263/ <comment><USER2> I'm not an aviation expert, but their reasoning seems to be "it's a tiny chance and we reaaaaaallllly want to use these planes".

We are talking about a known bug that could lead to deaths.

This isn't some critical military aircraft or a cargo plane that without which food and goods can't be transported. The only "harm" will be to shareholders.

People are more important than profits.

<comment> GuB-42 > People are more important than profits.

That's not absolutely true. People lives have a value, around $10M for US transport. It means that if the cost of potentially saving one human life is more than $10M, it isn't worth it, as in, there are more important things to do with that money, including improving safety in other areas.

Now profits are important too. Companies need money. That's how they pay their employees, do R&D, stuff like that. If they don't make money, employees will get fired, and they won't be able to develop new, better and potentially safer planes. For airlines, they may be forced to make tickets more expensive or lower their standards to compensate for the costs of planes that don't fly. Talking about shareholders, you may be a shareholder too if your savings include Boeing stocks. Less profits has an avalanche of undesirable effects. Some of them affect the 1% but the majority of it make things slightly worse for the 99%.

<comment><USER3> If it's government money it makes sense to save $10m here to apply it there (in theory). But when it's Boeing's money it makes no sense at all. Boeing isn't going to take the $10m they're not spending and put guardrails on dangerous highways.

<comment><USER4> It's not really Boeing's money, they aren't a charity, any increase in the price of an aircraft gets passed on to airlines (and from the airlines to passengers)

If unlimited safety improvements are required without regard to cost, it could drive the cost of the aircraft so high that airlines can't afford to upgrade, so they keep their older fleet in service for longer. Which works for a while, but airframes do age and need to be retired.

<comment><USER5> That's only true if Boeing was the only manufacturer that builds this category of planes (they are not).

Boeing has an issue in their planes that the A350 doesn't have. So if the price of 787's goes up because it needs to go from unsafe to safe, then airlines can buy A350s instead.

<comment><USER6> Or they can buy the 787-10 with the Rolls Royce engine that is already certified. (Check out the article!)

In this case, the problem is with the engine, not with the plane, and the alternative engine is already approved and in service.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The FAA does a great job with general plane safety. Boeing does a great job with Safety. It's great to see this in public, so we can understand the system that leads to aviation being a unbelievably safe form of transportation, while still being responsive to the market.

(See [https://www.popsci.com/why-air-travel-became-so- incredibly-s...](https://www.popsci.com/why-air-travel-became-so-incredibly- safe))

All of that said, the modern generation of engines are so complex to hit their efficency windows, it's majorly impacting airlines. The A320-NEO engines by Pratt & Whitney have huge problems that have significantly impacted airlines and carriers, while GE is struggling with this problem.

All of these are engineering problems, with a complex trade-off between efficiency (fuel), safety and cost.

<comment> sjm-lbm There's also a problem with the Trent 1000, the other engine option on 787s:

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rolls-royce-hldg- trent100...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-rolls-royce-hldg- trent1000/rolls-royce-says-tripling-capacity-to-fix-trent-1000-engine- problems-idUSKCN1IU2NY)

Basically, the compressor is not lasting near as long as expected, and, since it's a safety-critical part, airplanes are spending a lot of time on the ground awaiting expensive inspections and repairs that weren't in anyone's maintenance schedule.

<comment><USER8> Also everyone is futzing with business models. There are maintenance facilities from many companies all over the world that can work on airframes, engines etc. The airframe and engine manufacturers are seeing all this post- sale income go to those companies, and not back to the manufacturer. So they are "fixing" that.

For example Rolls Royce does "power by the hour" where the airline is essentially paying rent on the engine while it is in use. That means Rolls takes care of the maintenance etc (all rolled into the per hour price). There are far fewer Rolls locations that can do that work. Then suddenly a lot of maintenance work needs to be done, and planes have to wait.

For those interested in aviation, I recommend following leehamnews[1]. The industry is very similar to what is faced in the software industry but over far larger timescales. eg airframe manufacturers have constant streams of improvements, but have to work out if and how to charge for them, how to do deal with existing aircraft of the same model without them ("backwards compatibility"), and the constant spending money to make money. You even see second system effects (arguably the birth of the 787 was just that financially, manufacturing and technically).

[1] [https://leehamnews.com](https://leehamnews.com)

<comment><USER9> And Rolls wants their suppliers to be doing JIT delivery of all their parts-- no one in the supply chain wants to be stuck holding the bag on inventory so Rolls expects to whistle at Pratt-Whitney for parts, and Pratt expects to be able to whistle at their suppliers (and down and down the supply chain) and still be able to get parts within an incredibly short window. Oh and they don't want to pay for anything they order until 6 months after receiving delivery. Its an incredibly tough squeeze on the supply chain.

You can tell some of my customers are in aircraft engine manufacturing.

<comment><USER10> The problem with JIT is the same as the problem everywhere else: When the wrong type of bean counters look at a cost too nearsightedly, they typically address the "static" costs and miss the hidden costs that are much harder to both understand and measure - typically "dynamic" costs that are both under- reported and hard to measure, and also to understand since there are a lot of moving parts.

The whole point of JIT is to take control of the dynamic effects so it's a bit ironic.

<comment><USER11> JIT works when those making the decisions are experienced engineers with financial knowledge, not bean counters without domain experience (IMHO).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hey! This is regulation at work when it's working. That's awesome. I gotta say, I'm a pretty big fan of the FAA in terms of taking their approach of to safety and regulation.

This seems kinda weird though to authorize for a commercial passenger craft? I'm curious, why would they authorize such a thing?

<comment><USER13> Indeed, the FAA have no real reason to authorize that; I would also not expect them to want to grant any exemptions on a blanket basis: usually aviation authorities make rulings on specific aircraft, based on the flight and maintenance data.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> > The GEnx-1B engine has a software bug that in one instance prompted the > computer to shut down the engine during a step climb to a higher altitude in > ice crystal icing conditions.

> Boeing said on 4 March that GE's fix for the shutdown problem is included in > a broad software update called "B200", and it's not scheduled for delivery > until December 2019. But GE has told FlightGlobal and the FAA that the B200 > software update will be ready by the first quarter of 2019.

</comment><comment><USER15> 6 months to a year and a half before Boeing thinks they'll have a software patch... That seems silly long

<comment><USER16> > 6 months to a year and a half before Boeing thinks they'll have a software > patch... That seems silly long

IIRC, SQLite is flight certified...which means that they have to show that every _machine code_ branch is tested by their test suite [1]. This stuff is not developed with the same lax processes as "move fast and break things" web apps.

[1] From some Youtube talk by one of the lead SQLite developers.

<comment><USER17> I would _love_ to see that talk if you can dig it up - SQLite's stability story is fascinating.

<comment><USER18> He mentions it here: _SQLite: The Database at the Edge of the Network with Dr. Richard Hipp_ \- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jib2AmRb_rk)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> "Boeing's responses to the FAA are due by 30 June."

Article is a month old, response was due to FAA already but I can't find it anywhere.

<comment><USER20> It looks like they had a meeting on June 12, 2018 in Des Moines, Washington (FAA Office?).

Here's a direct link to the "Record of Discussion": [https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=FAA-2...](https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=FAA-2018-0186-0005&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=pdf)

Unfortunately it doesn't really add any new information.

For those that are interested, here is the FAA's entry in the Federal Register from Boeing's Petition for Exemption: [https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/03/23/2018-05...](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/03/23/2018-05910/petition- for-exemption-summary-of-petition-received-the-boeing-company)

The documents related to that Petition for Exemption can be found on Regulations.gov by searching for Docket ID FAA-2018-0186 [https://www.regulations.gov/searchResults?rpp=25&po=0&s=FAA-...](https://www.regulations.gov/searchResults?rpp=25&po=0&s=FAA-2018-0186&fp=true&ns=true)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> With safety critical software, the devil you know may sometimes be the better choice. Changing the code to fix a known problem with a known workaround may make things worse by introducing unknown bugs. So which chance do you take? Sometimes not fixing a bug is the right thing to do.

</comment><comment> a-dub I think a simpler solution would be to require them to post an enormous bond that would tank the company if it came due in the result of a failure in the field.

They can ask for engineering data, but that can fudged. Asking them to bet the company on it is a much surer bet, imho.

</comment><comment><USER22> The FAA is right not to approve this. How can Boeing think they can ship this without knowing what the bug is?

</comment><comment><USER23> Someone at Boeing or GE -- do the right thing and leak the bug details.</comment>


Iowa Judicial Branch approved courthouse 'penetration,' contract shows - <AUTHOR> https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2019/09/18/iowa-courts-dallas-county-courthouse-coalfire-contract-judicial-branch-test-security-ia-crime-arrest/2356047001/ <comment><USER2> "Under the physical assessment guidelines in the Coalfire contract, the judicial branch gave Coalfire permission for their employees to physically enter the Judicial Branch Building, Polk County Courthouse and Dallas County Courthouse and use methods including "tail-gating," or following employees into the building, dumpster diving and picking locks to attempt a security breach."

</comment><comment><USER2> Previous discussion (prior to this report): [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21000273](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21000273)

Sounds like these guys are caught in a power struggle between the state and the county sheriff. Ugh.</comment>