Ask HN: techniques for basic graphics design (for programmers)? - <AUTHOR>

I am at this point again, where non-existent design skills are slowing me down too much. So I wonder what is a good way to get a basic level of proficiency?
As an example, I am not even sure how to get started (preferably with free tools). Attach a tablet to GIMP or Inkscape? I just can't imagine how to draw a circle at a specific position and specific radius with a graphics tablet? I know the graphics programs can usually tell you the coordinates and circumference with some tricks (hold certain key combinations), but typing drawCircle(x,y,radius) seems so much easier than digging for such tricks in the manual. And then what if your circle is 10 pixel too far right - it seems so tedious to shift things around in a graphics program. So how do designers typically go about it? My first impulse is always to start learning the scripting languages of those graphics programs... (Couldn't find one for Inkscape, though).
Maybe a good approach would be to sketch the design with a pencil, then try to mimic the design with code?
What would be a good environment for scripting graphics? Probably targeting SVG would be good... <comment><USER2> Practice is essential in becoming proficient in design. A technique that I particularly recommend for beginners is recreating designs that you like, from scratch. Start with something easy and work up!

The majority of my design "training" was done in a professional environment, using Illustrator and Photoshop. Such software has hierarchical layers/groups as well as support for keyboard input, which address your questions about performing tasks such as drawing circles and modifying designs.

Photoshop (raster-oriented graphics) is quite mature and impressive; there is unfortunately no OSS that can even approach its creative power, IMHO. Illustrator (vector-oriented graphics, which seems to be your interest) is nowhere near as solid as Photoshop... The best OSS alternative (for screen design, that I know of) is Xara Xtreme, which outdoes Illustrator in a number of ways. Unfortunately, core features such as layers/groups and keyboard input are not done well in Xara, and it is a long way away from being able to do print. Inkscape trails pretty far behind.

If you would like to take a scripting approach, how about trying JavaScript in a modern browser? In case it is better suited for your needs, you may also want to check out Asymptote and/or METAPOST.

A bit more advice: Technically-minded people can usually learn software applications by just playing around with it, but I highly recommend reading good books on the subject to _really_ learn the software. The many design tutorials online can also be quite useful.

<http://www.xara.com> <http://www.xaraxtreme.org/> <http://asymptote.sourceforge.net/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your answer! Any tutorials you could recommend? Last time I really did use JavaScript in the end... It seems Canvas pictures can not readily be saved as images, though. I was wondering if a Javascript to SVG bridge would make sense (create SVG files from canvas drawing methods).

Keyboard input in Photoshop: it's pretty hidden, though? And it seems tedious (select input fields with mouse etc), not sure, haven't really tried it. But doing everything in a text editor might actually be more convenient?

<comment><USER2> You are welcome!

Here are some sites that aggregate tutorials: * <http://www.noupe.com/> * <http://www.smashingmagazine.com/> * <http://sixrevisions.com/>

There are some Xara Xtreme tutorials on their main website. The free Linux version is not near as feature-complete as the Windows version, unfortunately, but you can still do quite a bit. * <http://www.xara.com/us/products/xtreme/tutorials-demos/>

I do not know of a way to save vector (SVG) images from browsers either, but if raster (PNG) exports would suffice, then check out the Firefox Screengrab! extension, which allows you to easily capture screenshots of whole pages (regardless of scrolling). BTW, here is a fun JavaScript library: * <http://raphaeljs.com/>

Keyboard input in Photoshop and Illustrator is something that I consider a core feature. How much it is needed really depends on the type of artwork/design that is being done, but every professional user that I have met makes quite extensive use of the keyboard, particularly when placing guides or dealing with vector shapes. (Unfortunately, keyboard input is not as core as it should be... For example, Adobe software does not support keyboard positioning of Bézier curve handles, meaning that the designer needs to create reference objects to snap to in order to have consistent curves.)

I find that doing everything in a text editor is great for some projects and not for others. I use Asymptote (within LaTeX documents) for technical drawings, and one of my favourite benefits is being able to use revision control. Postscript itself is Turing complete, BTW! :) For more artistic works, however, I find that using a GUI suits me better. My philosophy is to learn many different ways of doing things and use whatever you feel works best for any particular job... I use Python extensively, and sometimes I even break out POV-Ray!</comment></comment></comment>


Why Do Cats Love Boxes? - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2015/02/whats-up-with-cats-and-boxes/ <comment><USER2> I'm not sure I go with the temperature theory though it does explain the sun/lap loving behavior of cats in general.

I have an adult Maine Coon and he is a walking fur factory. I have never seen so much hair on one cat. His actions are very different from other cats I've had, he avoids sunshine, he doesn't like to sit on laps, and he always sleeps stretched out vs. curled up on the coolest surface available. To me that indicates he's plenty warm and desires no excess heat. However if you put a box down he'll claim it instantly.

I have always thought cats like boxes because it feels secure to them. A Reddit post once commented "Cats are in a difficult position - they're small enough to be prey but they think of themselves as predators. So their natural state is somewhere between dangerous and nervous." I think the enclosure of a box gives them some peace of mind.

<comment><USER3> I was thinking about the "security" theory a couple months ago when I took this picture of a box my cat is obsessed with. [https://twitter.com/Eric_WVGG/status/521764321622507520](https://twitter.com/Eric_WVGG/status/521764321622507520)

I don't buy it.

<comment><USER4> Leftover predator behavior where a cat will attempt to camouflage themselves by picking a resting place that's already visually distinct from the background field.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The reasons suggested are

1\. Cats are ambush predators and have a tendency to like small places they could stalk prey from

2\. Cats like to go to safe places where they can be alone, when they feel uncomfortable around humans or other pets

3\. Cats prefer warmer temperatures than humans, and boxes keep them warmer

It seems then that the ultimate cat box would be heated, and in a location that both lets them look at everyone else, but also feel secluded enough, like maybe up high on the wall. Or maybe a two-part heated box, one facing the room, the other more private.

<comment><USER6> And inevitably, if one were to construct such a box the cat would not use it.

<comment><USER7> They'd probably prefer the box it shipped in. Not because it's more suitable, but just to be contrary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > "The box-and-whisker plot"

If this article were written for the sole purpose of being able to employ this as a section title, I would understand.

</comment><comment><USER9> I believe one reason it's boxes and not just any container is because cats love paper. Put some papers on the floor and a cat is likely to lay on it. My parents would get the newspaper and the family cat would always lay on the papers, and my dad's theory was it was due to the static electricity that builds up on a cats fur, and the paper minimized their discomfort.

<comment><USER10> I'm not disagreeing but I'd like to mention that two of my cats absolutely love my plastic laundry baskets.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Kids love boxes too. So many cheers of excitement every time a big amazon order comes in.

<comment><USER12> This was my thought, too. I spent countless hours hiding inside of boxes as a child. I always found it comfortable to be "held" by the box, and loved the notion that I couldn't be seen by others.

My cats did not join me in the box.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I think publications write about "Anything Cats" simply because they know that alot of people will read and discuss the articles.

That being said, my cat doesn't like to sit in a box but she does enjoy an open sock drawer or suitcase.

</comment><comment><USER14> _According to a 2006 study by the National Research Council, the thermoneutral zone for a domestic cat is 86 to 97 degrees Fahrenheit. That's the range of temperatures in which cats are "comfortable" and don't have to generate extra heat to keep warm or expend metabolic energy on cooling ...Corrugated cardboard is a great insulator and confined spaces force the cat to ball up or form some other impossible object, which in turn helps it to preserve body heat._

Yeah, Occam's Razor, not Schrödinger's cat.

</comment><comment><USER15> Dogs have owners, cats have staff, goes the popular saying. Apparently staff includes people who try to figure out cats. What a difficult profession to be in.

<comment><USER16> Popular saying, huh?

Don't remember last time i had to take my cat outside twice a day, pick up his turds on every street corner, then hire a babysitter if i needed to be out of town for a weekend. Also never seen him eat shit.

He does get let outside a few times a week, he does hunt, and when i choose to go outside with him (without a leash), he follows me everywhere by himself, though usually trailing by 50ft. Did I mention he also bathes himself, daily? Then watches TV, kneads the blankets and sleeps next to us at night.

Reality is different than catchy quotes :)

<comment><USER17> My impression was that the quote had more to do with how cats and dogs supposedly perceive or act towards their owners, not about the level of maintenance required for one or the other. We get that you like your cat, though.

<comment><USER16> different species and individuals socialize differently. i dont understand people who make comments like this with no experience. you have to be around any kind of animal long enough to understand/appreciate the subtlety in behavior/moods. all pets need feeding and cleaning, but i dont troll every dog thread with snark about them being filthy and high maintenance. i plan to get a dog myself once my lifestyle allows it.

<comment><USER18> Yea, all my dog breeds have had different behaviors; the only thing they had all in common was locality, and unconditional love.

1\. Dachshund--huge appetite, genetic problems from over breeding. Fearless! As a child I had to pull her off the >100 German Shepard. She ran out and grabbed his neck until I got her to realease.

2\. Bullmastiff--Big sweet, but with genetic problems due to over breading.

3\. American Bulldog/Pit mixes. The two had no obvious genetic problems, but for brothers from the same litter they had vastly different personalities.(One was so aggressive, and neurotic a vet put him on Prozac--didn't do anything, like my experience on SSRI's.) The one thing that I never expected was both would Only urinate and deficate in my backyard. I took them on vacation and they held it for two days. I took them on walk and for 14 years they never once relieved themselves until they got home? I never used negative reinforcement? Actually, they were potty trained in a few day. One other thing, they were both males, but never lifted their leg to urinate? Neither of them would over eat, even when given something really good?

4\. One thing about all the dogs in my life; they seemed to have more common sense than a lot of by buddies at the time? I never saw my dogs eat shit, but if I did see them eat grass when they were not feeling well--which makes sense? I never saw one eat shit, but their might be something good about about it(reintroduce good bacteria?)

5\. They were my best friends!

<comment><USER16> never said dogs were not good pets/companions. getting back to the original comment about cats needing "staff", you haven't addressed how taking care of 3 dogs is less staff-esque than 3 cats. i would never have 3 dogs, not if i also want any hope of staying employed and taking care of future children.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Some of my cats love boxes but others have no use for them.

I don't think it is 100% universal.

</comment><comment><USER20> I have noticed cats, even light-couloured cats, can't seem to resist sitting on black backpags of duffel bags. Has anybody else noticed black-bag-seeking behaviour before?

</comment><comment><USER21> Ah, Caturday.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> "It is widely grokked that cats have the hacker nature." \- Eric S. Raymond

<comment><USER22> I have yet to observe human hackers utilizing boxes in any manner similar to cats and therefore am uncertain as to the relevance of this quote. This is not intended as criticsm as much as an invitation to elucidate on the cat's hacker nature with regard to corrugated containers.

<comment><USER23> Hackers think of themselves as dangerous. They have powerful skills that can they can use to intimidate and take advantage of others. But hackers are also extremely vulnerable. As children, they were always the outcast, the one that got their glasses stolen and tossed around on the playground. Deprived of valuable peer interaction, they develop into reclusive adults who can easily be taken advantage of by one with an understanding of their psychology.

Hackers prefer warmer temperatures than other people. This is why they eat Cheetos to grow an insulating layer of fat, and why they spend so much time in a sealed room full of octo-core CPUs and graphics cards.

By extrapolation, I predict that hackers are also ambush predators.

<comment><USER24> > _Hackers think of themselves as dangerous._

The other day a work colleague of mine described me as "so meek and mild", and I couldn't agree more.

<comment><USER25> Until you take out your claws. Then who is meek and mild? I assure you, you are a danger to humanity!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Can someone who loves cats explain to me how so many cat owners seem okay with letting it walk all over the surfaces they eat from after it walks all over a box of sandy cat piss?

<comment><USER27> Can someone explain eating directly off of the table to me

<comment><USER28> I am very grateful for this joke.</comment></comment></comment>


Closure Compiler vs YUICompressor - <AUTHOR> http://www.slideshare.net/lifesinger/closure-compiler-vs-yuicompressor

<comment><USER2> Awesome. With closure compiler although the advanced setting is unsafe, google have a plugin for firebug that will find the original part of your source for errors in the compiled version.

That means you can get really small target size in production, and fix anything in your source that causes problems in the advanced compiled versions.</comment>


Ask HN: Do you retain your board seat after resign from your company? - <AUTHOR> I was curious - do startup founders have to give up their board seats if they resign or are forced out from operating roles of the company they founded? Example: if the founding CEO is let go (or chooses to resign) does he also give up his board seat, assuming the board seat is for the individual and not for the CEO role? <comment><USER2> Does the startup founder still have enough shares to call the shots? Board seats in a typical US corp are filled by shareholder votes. If this isn't addressed by state law or the corporate governance docs then absent something weird if the resigner didn't voluntarily relieve the board of his presence an emergency shareholder meeting can do it for him. Of course IANYL

</comment><comment><USER3> It depends on the terms agreed with investors.

Typically this agreement says the board seat is allocated to the CEO _role_ , not to the individual. So, if the CEO leaves the company, she loses her board seat. She could be appointed to a different seat, e.g. as an independent director chosen by the other members of the board, or as a board member voted by shareholders.

But which of these outcomes is possible likely depends on her negotiating position at the time(s) she raised funds.

The book 'Secrets of Sand Hill Road' has useful guidance on this. See the first 10 pages of chapter 10.</comment>


I put a Raspberry Pi into a radio from the 80's to get a portable AirPlay device - <AUTHOR> https://jeena.net/rp-airplay-radio

<comment><USER2> I love this, it's a great hack. It seems like the real sweet spot for a project like this though would be to capture the AirPlay audio at a line level and patch it into existing speakers and power amplification circuit. That way you could capture the existing audio quality of a device that had good sound reproduction but is otherwise obsolete. Was such an approach considered?

<comment><AUTHOR> Considered yes, but I'm coming from computer science, not electronics so I just didn't know what all the parts are doing and it will take time before I learn about it. I'm eager to learn it but it is quite complex and a lot of work which would get in the way of finishing the project within a short time frame. The next time I will go one step further, I promise :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Mine's a Doctor Who's Tardis + Pi running Mopidy (raspbian + some packages for playing music from multiple services, airplay support and remote control with a webapp). Making the thing was totally worth the cost :)

Some photos on FB: [https://facebook.com/hervalfreire/albums/10152327503600754/?...](https://facebook.com/hervalfreire/albums/10152327503600754/?ref=bookmark) (planned on doing a blog post but got sidetracked building other things)

<comment><USER4> If & when you get time, I for one would be very interested to read the blog post! Even just a list of the packages you used (with the airplay support + associated webapps) would be handy!

I've just set mine up for timelapses at the moment. Nothing fancy, but it does make for pretty videos every day :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVxBJN5Pd_E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVxBJN5Pd_E) (since this one, have worked out how to turn the LED off, and I don't take it through the night any more).

Good times, love the pi.

<comment><AUTHOR> This looks cool! So you take a picture with a web cam every couple of minutes or something?

<comment><USER4> Yip, once a minute between sunrise and sunset (now) and then run a little script to turn it into a video, and then use a nice little cli (googlecl) to upload it to youtube (though that has been slightly tempermental). It's really really straightforward.

Basic instructions here: [http://wiki.psdavey.com/my-setup-for- timelapse.html](http://wiki.psdavey.com/my-setup-for-timelapse.html)

<comment><USER4> And today was really quite nice too :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxa59p8zcU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxa59p8zcU)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm about to do something similar except I'm using an old AM Test Transmitter from the 50's as the chassis [http://imgur.com/a/FtamZ](http://imgur.com/a/FtamZ) (thing has valves and still works!).

It has enough space to put in a pi,dac,amp into the middle box in the second picture (which is perfectly centred) then I'm going to build some mdf cabinets and put the speakers either side (with lots of dampening).

Going to keep (and make work) all the front switches, power output (top right rectangle) is going to be replaced with a backlit LCD display and the tuning dial (main face) is going to be kept but backlit with LED's that change color to indicate station/volume.

On the back, audio output (in case I want to use external speakers) plus HDMI and USB connections (so I can plug a monitor and keyboard in to do config without disassembly).

Case had so much internal space I was tempted to put a media PC in it but I have one already and a radio seems fitting somehow.

</comment><comment><USER6> I realize that the fun of hacking is the point here.

However if all you want is a working device, here's one for $60: [http://www.amazon.com/iHome-AirPlay-Rechargeable-Wireless- Sy...](http://www.amazon.com/iHome-AirPlay-Rechargeable-Wireless- System/dp/B009P2QUFS/) And there are much cheaper choices if you stick to bluetooth.

For hacking things together, there is a $30 dongle that takes power and delivers 3.5mm audio: [http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Receiver-Supports- Portable-WF-...](http://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Receiver-Supports-Portable-WF- RADU/dp/B00L26YDA4/)

</comment><comment><USER7> I like the concept. Seems like a fun weekend project. I might have to try it someday. Thanks.

<comment><USER8> I'm doing a similar "fun" project this weekend (for some definition of fun) - wiring up an rPi to a 1982 ADDS Regent TTY @ 9600bps. The Pi is installed internally with wifi and takes power from the terminal; all the other connections are internal to the terminal. So, plop it down in any room, turn it on, and have a fun conversation piece / something to play nethack on.

There is a critical mass issue with things like this in needing to have several of the microcontroller devices available, so you don't feel bad about "burning" on by actually embedding it in a project.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Does it play audio perfectly in sync between the two devices and if so can u easily add/create additional speakers? Fill your house with audio on the cheap?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, it works like the AirPort Express, it buffers a couple of seconds (perhaps 5 or something) and first then plays it. This is build in into the AirPlay protocol to prevent gaps in the audio.

<comment><USER9> Would you be interested in creating speakers using this method that play and are controlled in sync?

If so, we (SpeakerBlast.com) might be able to help.

<comment><USER10> [http://www.hackerposse.com/~rozzin/journal/whole-home- pulsea...](http://www.hackerposse.com/~rozzin/journal/whole-home- pulseaudio.html) may be interesting for those looking for synchronized multi- device audio (I am not the author).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Even more interested in his meat drying posts, that looks like a fun hobby I've been meaning to find something non-tech to do.</comment>


4 months of work turned into Gnome, Debian testing based tablet - <AUTHOR> https://zgrimshell.github.io/posts/4-months-of-work-turned-into-gnome-debian-testing-based-tablet.html <comment><USER2> Does it support deep sleep and push notifications?</comment>


W. House Announces Startup America to Foster Innovative, High-Growth Firms in US - <AUTHOR> http://www.startupamericapartnership.org/news

<comment><AUTHOR> Techstars is listed as a committed member. I wonder if YC is interested at all?</comment>


No to "No UI" - <AUTHOR> http://www.elasticspace.com/2013/03/no-to-no-ui <comment><USER2> Seeing people reason about this subject in the main article and the subsequent comments brings me back to my college "literary theory" courses. Instead of tossing up pithy declarative statements like "The best X is no X", or "The best Y is as little Y as possible", and then commenting on how these statements strike our intuition, we can bypass the literary methods in favor of scientific ones.

There's an entire body of research on visual design (a great introduction to which is Colin Ware's "Information Visualization") that gets right down to the nitty gritty details of human perception, like eye tracking speed, visual channel capacity, move and scan loops, visual working memory, the relationship between luminance channels, motion and shape as opposed to color channels, and on and on and on.

It turns out that "good" design principles can be quantified, communicated, taught, and learned, are based on our common biology, and that they needn't come at the expense of aesthetics or sound reasoning.

<comment><USER3> We have methods to test UI's to validate or invalidate them, we do not have a way to create new UI's from testing. HCI research provides a good grounding for design architecture options, but it does not dictate an actual design for you.

This is a very important distinction most test-only UX designers miss.

For example: If you test a skeuomorphic design versus a flat design, the testing will only tell you which of these interpretations of each design philosophy works best. However, maybe a better, more inspired, skeuomorphic design would possible perform better than flat if given a a different interpretation.

tl;dr -- testing only shows you which implementation works better in a set, not the best implementation possible.

<comment><USER4> And even worse only show you which implementation works in the context its being showed.

I.e. a lot of people UX people test was tested in pseudo environments.

[http://000fff.org/getting-to-the-customer-why-everything- you...](http://000fff.org/getting-to-the-customer-why-everything-you-think- about-user-centred-design-is-wrong/)

Many UX experts laughed when this was written in 2010. But it is now the default IMO.

Testing has to be done in its actual environment to provide really useful feedback or be something completely (like a new way of interacting with your computer) new in order to be tested outside its final environment.

Testing no-ui is even harder since you have to build a "persona" before you can test the results.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This article encapsulates the frustration I felt this weekend trying to help my parents find their way via their fancy new in-car GPS. I eventually realized their difficulty wasn't just the result of Ford's piss-poor UI,[1] but also a basic conceptual issue.

It seems silly to us tech-minded folk, but my parents truly did not understand what role they had in correcting for the GPS's mistakes.

It never occurred to them that it was _possible_ to edit the route selection, or just go off-course and wait for the route to recalculate. As the poor map data[2] led them on roundabout routes veering across the state, their response to my pleading that they pre-select the best route (which they already knew about) was simply "let's see where she's taking us."

Through constant reinforcement via the media, the abstract 'cloud' paradigm has been deceitfully expanded to represent any new technology.[3] The disembodied voice of the GPS,[4] to them, is an authority rather than simply a tool.

UX problems are going to become much more complicated through all of this. We've got to figure out whether our goal is to sell people products or help people to enhance their lives with technology. To do the latter, software needs to be helpfully aware of the possibility of failure. That's what honest, understandable design means to me.

      [1]: If your designers are too terrible to make a visually distinctive on/off button state, *you need to use sliders*.
      [2]: (and/or impossible-to-determine avoid highways/tolls setting)
      [3]: "How does it get maps?" they asked me, a process which, were I not present, they would have simply taken for granted along with the million other points of abstraction necessary for a piece of tech like in-car GPS.
      [4]: (which they can only refer to as "her" or "she" rather than "it")

<comment><USER6> This reminds me of how my grandmother used to leave voicemails in a robotic, staccato voice so that the answering machine could understand her if the machine's default robot voice picked up the phone.

To her, the answering machine's voice is an instruction of what type of input the machine needs.

To us, of course, the answering machine's voice is just a product of the sad state of answering machine voice technology.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The point about no UI isn't that you wont have a display, in fact you will have many many types of displays.

The point is that the actual interaction becomes invisible. I.e. not as much manual input but rather the input is based your everyday actions.

You take the train as you usually do. The system knows you normally get to work at 9 but it also know the train is delayed so you get a message that its delayed.

Thats the vision of the future, thats the seamless and non-obtrusive part.

Not that it wont be visually displayed.

The nest takes away much of the manual work you had to do (adjust based on when you are home etc) it doesn't remove the feedback mechanism.

<comment><USER7> About a dozen years ago I worked with a developer who built "smart house" applications. He was describing his home and how the house knew when he walked into a room and activated the lights. When he got into to bed, the lights in the room automatically went off. I asked him: "so, what do you do if you want to read in bed?" His reply was a quizzical look, and "?? The bed is for sleeping." He didn't understand how broken this mentality was.

The point is, if systems that anticipate your needs do not have adequate interface for working around them - and by adequate, I mean easily discoverable and intuitive, then they will be rejected by the majority of consumers. And with good reason. Technology should serve us, not require us to adapt to them.

<comment><USER4> Well that depends on how meta you are prepared to take it :)

The UI is in itself forcing you to adapt to it by asking you to input data into it.

Your refrigerator does not require you to turn on the light when you open it. Instead it turns on when you open the door.

I see this not as a revolution but as a slow (but exponentially faster) evolution. As issues gets ironed out you can remove more and more manual labour from the system.

<comment><USER8> You fail to address the point of how much control people are comfortable with giving away. Some lights are fine if they're fully automated (fridge). But for others people want to have some control (e.g., reading the bedroom, looking to see if there's a mosquito etc). So no, there appears to be a limit of how much UI you can take away.

<comment><USER4> To be honest I dont understand what you disagree with in what I wrote.

My point is that how comfortable people are will change over time or depending on their situation.

I might use an ipad for reading instead and thus for me and million of other people that problem is not really there and you have a market.

The only way I can understand your comment is if you don't believe systems can become better over time.

I do.

<comment><USER8> I didn't disagree with your comment but pointed out that it doesn't address this "no UI" concept and whether people actually want that. While it is likely that in the future more things will be automated, it's not going to converge to people not controlling anything. I do believe systems will become better over time, just not necessarily through not having any interface.

<comment><USER4> And I didn't disagree that we dont need interfaces, more that the action (opening the fridge door) becomes the event trigger in itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I never related invisibility literally. To me, invisibility in design is when the user doesn't figure out the stuff, making all fluid helped by the evident UI. That's when the design becomes invisible because is not part of the problem. Tell me if you figure out your doorbell design, you wont because the design is not the problem so the aesthetics of your doorbell, the functioning and other areas become invisible. You just focus on actions.

</comment><comment><USER10> " _Lack of understanding leads to uncertainty and folk-theories that hinder our ability to use technical systems, and clouds the critique of technological developments._ "

The study linked to in the sentence points out that folk theories, while "not completely accurate accounts...can provide people with explanatory power, can guide behavior surrounding use of the technology, and can allow people to make predictions about how a technology will function under certain conditions." [1]

These heuristics, though not perfectly accurate, can work for most of the user's use cases. Intervention is called for only when the practical implications of the folk theory are misleading.

[1] [http://www.cc.gatech.edu/grads/l/ledantec/files/poole- ledant...](http://www.cc.gatech.edu/grads/l/ledantec/files/poole-ledantec- reflecting-ubicomp08.pdf)

<comment><USER11> Folk theories in other contexts provide the basis for crap like homeopathy though. It's hard to see how a folk theory could be as liberating as the truth. There's a tradeoff here between "investment in" and "utility derived from" that is worth raising an awareness of, but I can't disagree with the author that keeping people ignorant--even if it is convenient for both parties --is a disenfranchising force.

<comment><USER12> You are misunderstanding how "folk theory" is used in this context. Homeopathy (which I'll take as a stand-in for bad science) has nothing to do with folk theory. Think instead of "folk theory" as the informal models we use to interact with the world and to communicate with others about the world.

For example, a former employer of mine had problems reported with an internal search facility used by a branch of the customer service team. A coworker and I shadowed members of this team (ala contextual interview) to learn about their work and workflow. We were very interested to find that each user of this system had formed their own folk theory about the idiosyncrasies of the (very difficult to use) existing software, theories which let them get their jobs done. These theories had little to do with the inner workings of the software machine and everything to do with the tasks to be accomplished.

As such, creation of folk theory happens automatically in virtually any environment where humans use tools and processes. Even when this theory is backed by "science" or "inside knowledge", what emerges is still the working practice, mental models, and language forms of a folk theory. Back to the article's point then: the idea of invisible interface is problematic because it denies the formation and elevation of culture (folk theory) that will naturally form around an interface.

<comment><USER11> Thanks for explaining that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "The best design is invisible" = false. "Good design is as little design as possible" = true. Pretty different concepts.

<comment><USER14> The second is also false if I understand you correctly. In some cases a busy, non-minimalistic design can be appropriate, e.g. casinos, games, clothes, cars, etc. As little design as possible implies no decorations and decorations certainly have their place in design.

<comment><USER15> "As little design as possible" does not equate with minimalism. Sometimes business and flourishes are necessary.

<comment><USER14> So what exactly does that mean?

<comment><USER16> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

<comment><USER17> What if you're being paid as a designer to be flashy/sexy or for the product to be a display of conspicuous consumption?

Trying to define good design is like trying to define good literature. Are you trying to convince the user, force the user, agitate the user, guilt trip the user, motivate the user, educate/train the user, de-educate/un-train the user, empower the user, de-empower the user, force the user to conform, force the user to rebel... its all going to be different both for lit and for design work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The idea that design should be invisible isn't a new phenomenon. As far as I know, one of the earliest mentions of the idea was by Beatrice Warde in her essay The Crystal Goblet (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Goblet>). No UI just made the mistake of taking a poor, overloaded name for their movement. Invisible Design would have been a better one that doesn't already impose a solution.

The argument for interface culture seems really misguided though. Since when should a culture around a poor design implementation require that we don't try and improve it's design? I'd argue that we already have said, "the best TV is no TV". Flat screen TVs are exactly this, we're moving away from the huge clunky things we used to have. I'm sure some were disappointed when their TVs lost their knobs and dials, they were part of the culture, but now no one thinks twice about it.

I don't think reducing a UI inherently means making the mental model harder to understand.

</comment><comment><USER19> This article was a response to the "Best UI no UI" debate that was sparked by one of Cooper's article I think [1]

Personally I think the "Best Interface = No Interface" mantra is too black and white and totally ignores all the shades of grey in between. If you come up with these principles, the language needs to be much clearer.

I think what people meant to say was "Sometimes the best UI is no GUI".

Best response so far is by Scott Berkun[2]

[1] [http://www.cooper.com/journal/2012/08/the-best-interface- is-...](http://www.cooper.com/journal/2012/08/the-best-interface-is-no- interface.html)

[2] <http://scottberkun.com/2013/the-no-ui-debate-is-rubbish/>

<comment><USER17> One minor problem with Berkun's otherwise good essay is around paragraph five, his description of no-UI as a desire for simplicity, perpetuating the idea that complex interactions with machines are undesirable and a symptom of insanity. Then declares everyone's goal is simplicity, its just no-UI is doing simple "wrong". I could not disagree more. They are not linked or in any way related, complexity and desirability are orthogonal. I greatly enjoy highly complex, desirable interactions. Why must we only be capable of simple, boring actions? Highly complex action for little reward like his ridiculous example of a door opening UI shows the orthogonality of the two concepts, not that granting the user the ability to do complex things if they want to is somehow "wrong".

The best literature analogy I can make is something like the ideal love story is probably a lot more like a 200 page romance novel than like a 2 minute pr0n video.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> > the best buildings are no architecture

The example of architecture is a good one.

Of course, there is something to be said for the medium as art. That is, form for its own sake.

Function-only is also short-sighted, as it demeans the environment.

However, I would argue that the best architecture is hyper-rational, derived from raw need, and designed with a skill of an artisan. The real art is fulfilling the need _and_ looking good doing it.

</comment><comment><USER21> As a web developer/designer I will utilize the technology that is most successful for the end client. If no UI is what is hot; I will do it. If phone apps with big shiny buttons are what's hot; I will do it. I understand that I will have to continually learn new and evolving techniques to display or represent my content in a way that is desirable users. UI evangelism is somewhat a mute point to me.

</comment><comment><USER22> I don't know what to make of the debate, but I do want one of those answering machines he linked:

[http://ccdc11.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/durrell-bishops- marbl...](http://ccdc11.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/durrell-bishops-marble- answering-machine/)

Not because it is a better UI, but just because it seems so cool.

</comment><comment><USER23> one of the tradeoffs involved is between general expressiveness of the framework and ui unobstrusiveness. E.g. direct manipulation "naked objects" interface with fully automated objects placement on screen is quite generic but fairly ugly. My <http://www.nestgrid.org> user interface pattern improves on that by allowing free form editing of quasi html page, hence providing for mostly manual placement of objects, but it's still no more "unobtrusive" than Excel is. That is, it takes getting used to.

</comment><comment><USER24> well maybe your content could take the entire page width instead of being in a 1/3 page width column , or is there invisible content on the right ? you should think about users who disabled javascript before talking about UI. that's UI 101.</comment>


Ask HN: Isn't the 2010s tech bubble worse because it's slower? - <AUTHOR> The 2010s seem different from the later 1990s in that the late 1990s bubble popped very fast whereas the 2010s version seems to be a slow trickle of bad news. I'd argue the 2010s tech bubble is significantly worse because people are spending many, many years now on their "startups" without tangible success. Look at Pebble or Dropbox. Is anyone other than the CEO going make any money off all these years of effort? It's kinda like Neil Young quote used by Kurt Cobain in his suicide note: "It's better to burn out than fade away". <comment><USER2> The current tech "bubble" is not really a tech bubble - the craziness of the last 10 years is more a symptom of the greater economy than it is the tech start-up industry, and the changing balance is a good thing for the global economy overall, and probably, in the long run, start-ups.

Less money is flowing into tech because it's less appealing relative to the rest of the economy, not because tech is floundering, but because the rest of the economy is more stable.

</comment><comment><USER3> That may be one of the biggest annoyances of "Agile Methodologies". It's this idea that we can just keep micro-incrementing anything forever. While the principle works great, you end up with this model where you never actually stop/complete/etc...

I'm not saying we should stop that, by any means, precisely the opposite actually, however what we DO need to do is be more focused on actually building sustainable products and services, that generate (gasp) REVENUE/PROFIT, and learn to "Fail Fast" when it becomes a drag.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why do you think the economy is either good or a bubble?

That's why investors don't even listen to this stuff anymore... they understand the market more than we do</comment>


ML for the Working Programmer, 2nd Edition (1996) - <AUTHOR> https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~lp15/MLbook/pub-details.html <comment><USER2> _ML for the Working Programmer_ is my favorite programming book! It's fantastic because it is serious and goes into great detail about practical matters in working with SML. Its treatment of SML's module system is without match. It contains generally useful chapters on the implementation of streams, persistent functional data structures, parsers, and proof systems. My favorite thing about the book is its emphasis on designing correct programs. And the cover's pretty cool.

</comment><comment><USER3> Note that this is about the ML programming language, and not Machine Learning. It's been really annoying to tell the two apart in headlines lately, and I'm glad that "Machine Learning" is falling out of marketing favour so I have a higher chance of finding ML (the language) things.

<comment><USER4> Huh? If anything, the acronym for ML acronym for machine learning has become further entranched and ML the language gets virtually no coverage these days, even the FP people are more likely to talk about how to do ML in Haskell...

Search for ML in the monthly job postings. Guess how many mean machine learning and how many refer to the programming language :).

<comment><USER5> I assume the OP is saying that people are starting to use the term "deep learning" (or other terminology?) instead of "machine learning" in marketing.

<comment><USER4> Deep learning is still often abbreviated ML...just because DL hasn't really caught on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Yay! I love this book. I'm not sure it quite works as an introduction to functional programming, or even to SML, but it's full of thought-provoking material.

It had me hooked when I got to this part of the introduction:

"ML is not perfect. Certain pitfalls can allow a simple coding error to waste hours of a programmer's time. The new standard library introduces incompatibilities between old and new compilers. Warnings of possible hazards appear throughout the book. They look like this:

"[skull and crossbones icon] Beware the Duke of Gloucester. O Buckingham! take heed of yonder dog. Look, when he fawns, he bites; and when he bites, his venom tooth will rankle to the death. Have not to do with him, beware of him; Sin, Death, and Hell have set their marks on him, and all their ministers attend on him.

"I hasten to add that nothing in ML can have consequences quite this dire. No fault in a program can corrupt the ML system itself. On the other hand, programmers must remember that even correct programs can do harm in the outside world."

</comment><comment><USER7> Another fantastic resource for ML is Dan Grossman's Programming Languages course: [https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse341/17sp/](https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse341/17sp/) Scroll down to the Course Materials and check out some of the Videos. I started watching them and couldn't stop.

</comment><comment><USER8> Have a copy myself somewhere. Larry Paulson was a well liked lecturer. Famous for his terrible jumpers!

Standard ML always seemed like a great teaching language, but it was never clear to me how it would work for general programming. So the title 'for the working programmer' always seemed unintentionally ironic.

<comment><USER6> SML is a practical and realistic _language_ for general programming - surprisingly so, coming to it again 20+ years after first encountering it as an incomprehensible academic oddity. The world has moved much closer to it in the meantime.

However, it doesn't have the kind of library support you expect for most practical tasks (unlike its sibling Ocaml).

<comment><USER9> Last time ML came up, PolyML was mentioned which has much more complete systems libraries (threads, sockets, etc). Looks really great, I haven't gotten around to trying it myself though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> You can download from here [https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ml-for-the- working-prog...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ml-for-the-working- programmer/BDAAF5C30634CC39385F75C97274BFCC)

</comment><comment><USER11> A couple of years ago I picked up a used copy of Ullman's _Elements of ML Programming_ for about $5US. I found it more accessible.

<comment><USER12> I also would recommend Ullman as a first book on SML, and this one when moving toward bigger projects. I still use Ullman as a reference because I know it covers every essential feature in the language in an elementary way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> The SML/NJ literature page has a great collection of books (and tutorials and other resources) on SML if you're interested to learn or read more about it [0].

[0] [http://www.smlnj.org/doc/literature.html#books](http://www.smlnj.org/doc/literature.html#books)

</comment><comment><USER14> Can anyone post the first edition of this series? Would be very helpful to catch up. Thanks!

<comment><USER6> This is about the second edition of a book, i.e. an updated version, not a sequel or a second volume.

There is no particular reason to refer to the first edition now, since the second edition is the same book. The second edition brought the book (originally published in 1991) up to date for 1996, and it is in a sense still current now, because the language hasn't changed since then. The update added the SML Basis library which was just being standardised, plus better coverage of modules.

There is a small info page about the first edition here: [https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~lp15/MLbook/first/](https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~lp15/MLbook/first/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This book is over 20 years old, so what are some major developments since then?

<comment><USER16> This book still provides one of the best introductions to both basic ML programming, structuring big project with modules, and mechanical theorem proving.

I wish it was updated to OCaml, Scala, and maybe even Haskell.

<comment><USER17> I'd love to see a Rust and Erlang version.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Great introduction to functional programming, and logical theorem proving.

</comment><comment><USER17> For those getting into Rust, it was based heavily off of ML, so much of this book would aid in learning Rust concepts.

</comment><comment><USER18> If this looks interesting to you, you may enjoy OCaml or F#, both of which are ML variants with modern compilers and tooling available. OCaml compiles to standalone binaries, F# is a Microsoft language that compiles to .NET bytecode. I've found F# to be a joy to program in.

Also Rust and Swift and influenced by ML.

</comment><comment><USER19> Skimmed through first 3 chapters, because who reads prefaces anyway, and kept searching for anything "Machine Learning" related. Guess we're running out of fancy acronyms.</comment>


Ask HN: Best intro to Photoshop - <AUTHOR>

A few days ago I posted an Ask HN thread on independently learning design. The responses gave me enough direction to know the theoretical books, blogs, and sites to look through. And the commenters stressed that I need to pick up my own project. That's refreshing since I learned how to code in the same way.
I am starting to recreate designs that I like in Photoshop. Are there any tutorials, books, and/or blogs that I should be reading for a good introduction? I am starting as a complete beginner.
The thread I started a few days ago is here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5198352 <comment><USER2> hm, to me PS (unlike Illustrator) is in it's basic functions self explaining. My advice is, don't dance around it, just dive into it and try things. Make a collage, mix and rip.

Download psd and inspect them works as well.

If question occure google for that specific "quest".

<comment><AUTHOR> Good idea with downloading the psd files.</comment></comment>


Data Packages for Fast, Reproducible Python Analysis - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ycombinator.com/data-packages-for-fast-reproducible-python-analysis/ <comment><USER2> Author here. Questions about data engineering, versioning data, or why you shouldn't use git to store data? :) Ask away.

You can also file feature requests or PRs against our GitHub repo [https://github.com/quiltdata/quilt](https://github.com/quiltdata/quilt)</comment>


The Making Of OpenERP - <AUTHOR> http://v6.openerp.com/node/1291

<comment><USER2> We're actually looking into OpenERP for potential implementation at my company (around 2500 employees). I've been doing a good bit of research. My findings so far:

      The good:
      * Done in python. Easy to read.
      * Easy to extend or modify (done via python modules)
      * Supposedly can be extended/configured to a certain extent without code (field additions, etc)
      * Has a long list of modules available, and core modules which support my needed (accounting, finance, warehouse/supply chain, HR/Payroll)
      * Requires PostgreSQL...my database of choice.
      * Seems pretty stable...I haven't hit many bugs yet.
      * Fully open source under the AGPL...you get the entire product, unlike others such as OpenBravo and XTuple where you have to pay to get certain features. The flip side of this is that because it's AGPL, you have to release the source any modifications or modules you make unless you pay OpenERP for a subscription (and consequently, a different license)

      The bad:
      * The documentation is badly out of date. There are two versions...web-based and PDF. The web-based ones are more updated, but still out of date. Trying to learn as complex a system as an ERP with broken documentation is a very frustrating exercise. This is probably to biggest headache for me and it has significantly slowed our evaluation. It'd be at least a little better if I could pay for improved docs, but this is all they have...even paying customers are provided out-dated documentation.
      * Not many success stories in the US. I get the impression that it's more popular in Europe (OpenERP is out of Belgium).
      * Company is a bit unresponsive. I've contacted them and had very little successful communication with them, even though they have a US rep. If you read online, others seem to have had similar problems.

We're still going to make a go of it, because our current system is legacy and leaves a lot to be desired. However, I think they could have a lot more success by hiring tech writers and making sure the documentation stays up to date.

<comment><USER3> * OpenERP is written in python (great) but the code is not readable. They do not follow any coding standards (like pep008) and don't even have a code review process. Give it a try [1]. At my company we say "Unlearn python before you start working on openerp".

* Yes OpenERP is easy to extend and modify and has a good modular architecture. However, the API is badly broken, have a look at an on_change event handler on the server side [2]. Think of modifying this in your extended module!

* Extending/Configuring without code is marketing speak. It sounds and looks great for a demo, but is impractical to be used in any business. For example, you modify how a product view looks like by changing it without code and it works, then next time you upgrade the product module, you will lose all the changes. It is also a quick recipe to making your ERP a 800lbs gorilla which cannot be maintained.

* They have a long list of modules. Most of the modules are crap uploaded by OpenERP partners who implemented some specific business case for a customer of theirs and is not generic. In most failed OpenERP implementations, the primary reason is almost always these extra modules which introduce dangerous bugs. I would not blame the developers alone, because OpenERP itself lacks a culture of testing and lacks sufficient tools to test the software. Be sure to evaluate every module with real world business cases. For example, purchasing in a different currency could be a feature on the "wishlist" [3]. And BTW.. they have a module which can order " sandwiches, pizzas, prepared meals, etc." for the 2500 employees :P (i am not joking [4])

* Postgresql - it's a great database, but badly misused in Open ERP [5] (it is from the core stock module which keeps track of your inventory). I will personally not trust any software which uses "distinct" [6] in a query as important as that. It also shows how OpenERP will not scale and how Open ERP developers lack the basic knowledge of SQL (not that they know better python).

* Open ERP is far from stable. Memory leaks are pretty common and add to that poorly written python. We have been maintaining production instances for a really long time and I would not find it a stable software.

* As for AGPL - it may not be the right license for an ERP. AGPL requires you to make the source of the software available as a downloadable link to all users of the software. Would you be willing to do that for all your employees ? And moving a bit more back - they switched overnight from GPL to AGPL claiming OpenERP SA owns all the copyright. Even if we assume they really do, you have an "open source" software which has no community contributions or you have a software which has a license which stands to be sued by any previous contributor some day.

* Success Stories: There may not be many actually. I personally know several of the companies in the openerp success cases page who do not use OpenERP anymore.

* Partners/Implementors of Open ERP: Here you will find the good, bad and the ugly. There are some great implementors who understand OpenERP well but may not necessarily be the partners in the spotlight. The gold, silver and ready partnership levels are just a matter of how much money you paid Open ERP SA (the company behind openerp). Chose your implementor very carefully. If they say, it has everything you want and works just like that - they are lying to you. I recommend reading a recent article a community member has written, it's pretty detailed and in french (but google translate seems to translate it well) [7].

And finally, the recent fuss about "sorry sap". It looks more like an ambitious plan to have a negative social campaign about SAP and hope that SAP would fork out a few million dollars to acquire them. Venture capitalists who invested in OpenERP surely have an exit plan ?

[1] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- server/trunk...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- server/trunk/view/head:/openerp/osv/orm.py)

[2] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- addons/6.1/v...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- addons/6.1/view/head:/sale/sale.py#L1190)

[3] [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tryton/1kOND1_kGZ8/7MCU2V699...](https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tryton/1kOND1_kGZ8/7MCU2V699OoJ)

[4] <http://v6.openerp.com/node/1278>

[5] [http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- addons/trunk...](http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openerp/openobject- addons/trunk/view/head:/stock/stock.py#L114)

[6] <http://www.thedwick.com/2005/11/how-distinct-hides-bad-sql/>

[7] [http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://people.via.ecp.fr/~alexis/openerp/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalexis%2Bde%2Blattre%2Bopenerp%26hl%3Den%26tbo%3Dd&sa=X&ei=ZxPIUNrSF8ryrQeky4HYDQ&ved=0CGwQ7gEwBw)

<comment><USER4> I have an extensive experience as an OpenERP implementer (it's now over) and agree with all of the above points.

By any mean, any communication coming from OpenERP (and partners) must be taken with a grain of salt. It's not that it's PR stunt level but it's often not very far.

That said, there's not better OpenSource alternative.

Also, don't be lured by the OpenSource term.

Also, disclaimer: Sharoon Thomas (if that's actually him) is involved in Tryton (<http://www.tryton.org/en/>) which is an OpenERP fork. Better in some ways, worse in other ways.

<comment><USER3> I should have put in a disclaimer myself (though my information is there on the HN profile)

Anyway:

      * I work for Openlabs (http://openlabs.co.in)
      * I am a board member of the Tryton Software Foundation (http://foundation.tryton.org/) (The entity behind Tryton a fork of Open ERP)
      * But, all the above views and opinions are personal.

<comment><USER2> Your comments, if accurate, are definitely concerning. So how is Tryton different? Have you righted the wrongs that OpenERP has made? And if not, what do you recommend as an alternative to OpenERP?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Congrats on building a successful business. But the hyperbole is slightly laughable. This company is nowhere near competing with the likes of SAP. I recognize the ambition is there and it's great to have vision, but some of the statements are way off.

The business model is interesting though. The days of the 90% profit margins SAP/Oracle get on their maintenance combined with their outdated software licensing model, lends itself to be highly disrupted. My money is currently on Workday to be the market leader.

<comment><USER6> What would it take to "compete with the likes of SAP" in your view? I know almost nothing about ERP but a close friend is a SAP consultant and provides daily tales of super-Lovecraftian horrors so fantastic that it's hard to imagine why people use it. In fact most stories make me think "it would be orders of magnitude cheaper and more fun to implement that from scratch with Python and some open source tools".

<comment><USER7> I am an SAP Consultant, and my .02 is that companies are so in love with their back office processes such as creating purchase orders and sales orders, that they want these things so highly customizable that it requires big package software.

Most SAP horror stories are from customers who don't realize their ability to process their Accounts Payable isn't a business core competency and is not bringing them competitive advantage.

If customers come around on this, THEN the days of SAP will be numbered.

<comment><USER5> A fellow SAP Consultant on HN...what a rarity! Hi!

Yes, basically this. Often what I found is that customers and vendors are extremely complex in the way they do business. "But we want to pay in 34 days, and if we pay on the 31st day at noon, we get a .005% discount relative to the current exchange rate" Try doing that in your self-made python system, that scales, has high-availability, disaster recovery, is available in 92 countries, and has an ecosystem of developers that come cheap from Asia.

What I actually find is that the people who are making the decision to purchase the software want to make sure they have the most feature rich system so when things do change, the "TCO" isn't impacted and they can fairly easily satisfy the changing requirement. I believe half of enterprise software is just deciding what the requirement is. (which is really no shocker to those is non-enterprise tech)

<comment><USER8> Also fellow SAP consultant here.

SAP ERP is pretty stable. That's what customers are paying for. Material management has been debugged for decades. Try to compete with that. A couple of python scripts seem like a nightmare to me.

Yes, the code is horrible and ABAP itself is a nightmare, but the software as product is very hard to tackle. The only way I can think of is a disruptive move of Big Business in general, ie. small networked entities instead of crusty old ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Companies in Europe generally avoid the kind of hyperbole marketing that's more common in the US, for a number of reasons. We find it a bit crass, we don't like to blow our own trumpets too hard, we view what's termed "extending the truth" as plain lying.

But, one of the most important reasons, as OpenERP have just proved, we're often crap at it.

</comment><comment><USER10> Wow, what a fun, inspiring post. Love it!

BTW, do not make the mistake of dismissing OpenERP as a small player in a market dominated by giants like SAP. OpenERP is _asymmetric competition_ for those giants! The company's goal is to _shrink_ the market, by taking away more of revenue from competitors for every dollar the company earns.

As Josh Kopelman of First Round Capital says, "We love investing in technologies and business models that are able to shrink existing markets. If your company can take $5 of revenue from a competitor for every $1 you earn – let's talk!"[1]

Congratulations to Fabien Pinckaers and the rest of the OpenERP team!

\--

[1] <http://redeye.firstround.com/2006/04/shrink_a_market.html>

</comment><comment><USER11> I really think that Open Source ERP Software (Adempiere, OpenBravo, OpenERP, and others) have the potential to be a great disruptive force in the land of SAP, QAD, and others.

One of my best customers (in terms of contracting work) is an electrical motor company who has an Oracle EBS and a QAD MFG/Pro install. When they expanded to China, they didn't want to use either MFG/Pro or Oracle EBS for IP/InfoSec reasons, so we customized Adempiere to fit their needs, and then generate data that they could batch import nightly into their MFG/Pro and Oracle EBS systems. Their CFO and CTO (at the time) were so impressed, they ended up rolling out Adempiere out across their organization prior to being acquired.

This version of OpenERP looks much...smoother (with an emphasis on UI) than the previous versions of their software; major kudos are in order. :)

<comment><USER12> Yes, they do. OpenERP might complex and buggy but my understanding is SAP, Oracle EBS are as bad or worse and cost bazillions.

Look at this recent ERP disaster for the AirForce .. DEAMS.

One billion spent, then scrapped.

Dod Audit report: [edit] correct one here: <http://www.dodig.mil/audit/reports/fy12/DODIG-2012-140.pdf>

News report: [http://www.dailytech.com/USAF+Staff+Appalled+at+Wasting+1B+U...](http://www.dailytech.com/USAF+Staff+Appalled+at+Wasting+1B+USD+on+Failed+Software+Upgrade/article29382.htm)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Having worked with OpenERP for a few years, I can say it is an amazing piece of software that does great things, but for a USA based company to be considering it against SAP is laughable.

I would strongly recommend anyone considering using OpenERP in the US to find a company currently running any version and ask them about their experience.

<comment><USER14> Add to the conversation - what's the issue for US companies using OpenERP?

<comment><USER13> 1\. Financial reports (General Ledger, Cash Flow, Profit and Loss, etc...) that US businesses rely on, leave a lot to be desired and/or need a lot of custom modifications to work. These things need to work perfectly in an ERP system, and sometimes the response from OpenERP SA seemed lackadaisical as if partially correct reports for the US companies would be OK.[1]

2\. Things like reconciling bank accounts and taxes are geared towards a European system that seems much different than ours, and as a result cause a lot of problems in a US implementations. Again, OpenERP doesn't have a localized US package that addresses these issues in a concrete way. Searching for help, you'll probably be referred to half finished module, with 0 documentation that still requires a lot of work to be ready for production.

3\. On the stock and manufacturing side of things the system works much better in my opinion. And with the right amount of work done up front, the they both offer flexibility while following a strict business logic[2] set in place at the time of implementation, that they can do some amazing things for a sales / fulfillment side of the organization. The reporting and automation that OpenERP can provide on this side is really awesome.

[1]. I am not an accountant. [2]. It is a ton of work defining a business's process in the terms of an ERP. Sometimes I felt like OpenERP got blamed for a company poorly defining their process (if they even had one) So be wary of that when looking at forums and things...

<comment><USER15> Concerning financial reports, OpenERP 6.1 introduced the ability to modify financial reports (hierarchy, order, content, sign,...) directly from the configuration interface namely in Accounting > Configuration > Financial accounting > Financial reports. No need for custom development to get the reports that US businesses use.

About bank reconciliation, what is the issue?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Congratulations to you, OpenERP is an incredibly ambitious project of potentially enormous utility. I can't think of a bigger source of waste and deadweight loss in the corporate IT world than the slow, stagnant, user- unfriendly ERP software that huge companies like Oracle and SAP spend millions of dollars selling to other huge companies who don't really understand what they're buying. I have struggled with it for years and often daydreamed of writing my own ERP suite to sell to small businesses. Kudos to you for actually doing it!

</comment><comment><USER17> Oh! The software I work on, on HN!

We're porting our modules (infamous plug: I work for ThinkOpen Solutions) and v7 is definitively a big improvement in terms of the interface, including usability.

The core seems to be more stable, both in terms of regular use as well as API, and the functionality seems better integrated. The new messaging system is definitively nice.

The release notes for 7.0 are worth a read if you're interested: <http://v6.openerp.com/node/1272>

</comment><comment><USER18> Uh oh, the site isn't loading now possibly due to the increased traffic. How's a business going to trust their mission-critical apps to be hosted on a site that's having trouble with the HN unveiling?

Great idea, but I don't see an untested open-source application disrupting SAP or Oracle anytime soon. Workday is even closer to that. The devil is in the details and even small errors in HR, such as vacation balances being off by percentage of an hour... or invoices not being penny accurate will test this product.

</comment><comment><USER19> Well... I worked at a company that tried to implement OpenERP for managing the Back-End operations of an E-Commerce business. Too many bus to fix, even on core. Money that was supposed to be used in new functionality development was spent paying partners to fix issues we found.

Moved to Tryton ( <http://www.tryton.org/en/> ), which is a lot more pythonic, a lot more concise and follows standards, including PEP8 and company still Tryton today.

Financials and forecasting with OpenERP can be a mess, specially when you get users that are used with quickbooks.

Check Tryton ( <http://www.tryton.org/en/> ). I am sure you will like it. There are a bunch of modules that also install as python modules, virtualenv support, PostgresSQL, clear development roadmap and much more. Also, thre is this magento integration that is pretty nice -> <https://imagento.openlabs.co.in/>

</comment><comment><USER20> A demo of the new version is available here: [https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&modu...](https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&module=mail)

</comment><comment><USER21> If this is the piece of software I remember, SAP has nothing to worry about.

<comment><USER22> You should test it again, it changed so much in the past months: [https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&modu...](https://www.openerp.com/saas_master/demo?lang=en_US&module=mail)

<comment><USER21> It does look vastly different. The next time a client comes around looking for an ERP system, I'll vet it again.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Funny, I remember these people eating their sandwiches when the photo was taken, the view from my desk is on these steps / garden, and we wondered who they were ;)

</comment><comment><USER24> It looks much better than the previous iteration. One thing I don't understand is why businesses reveal a product like this before making it completely available. For those who don't already use it, how many are actually going to check openerp.com in ten days? It seems like the spotlight is wasted with these sort of unveilings. That being said, I might, if I remember.

<comment><USER25> The catch is that you have to share their link to have access to the demo.

EDIT : you need to go on this page and share <http://www.sorrysap.com/>

EDIT 2 : or try [https://demo1.openerp.com/?ts=1355245099781#page=0&limit...](https://demo1.openerp.com/?ts=1355245099781#page=0&limit=&view_type=list&model=hr.holidays&action=422)

<comment><USER9> Or you could just ignore that and use the link you end up with directly, <https://demo2.openerp.com/#action=114>.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I tried version 6 a few month ago because the small company I work for wanted to buy an ERP and I wanted to show them the ones available. I would like to warn anyone trying to use OpenERP. It's a mess, install it and try for yourself for a week or two before deciding on going for it. It's full of bugs. Their forum sucks, the community is made of people that don't want to share their solutions because they want to sell them, but that backfires cause I needed to show it to management but couldnt because all the errors. All that javascript interface is slow and as soon as you try to do something a bit out of the expected it starts giving lots of error for which you wont find a solution searching on the web. It's a crappy software they try to sell and rape you later with tech support.

</comment><comment><USER27> [shameless plug]

Have been developing ERPNext (<https://erpnext.com>) on similar lines. Its no where near OpenERP but would love to get some critical comments.

</comment><comment><USER28> The "Sorry SAP" campaign is somewhat unbalanced comment. It shows for sure how little OpenERP founder (& others) knows about SAP ERP. However, I am convinced that OpenERP is a perfect ERP solution for small SME's. And you know what? Most of the companies we (www.sme-erp-it-consulting.com) focus on, are SME! Currently we implemented, for many Thai SME, this OpenERP, with success. And we are working on some BIG thing to come. Watch our Blogs or just Google (Thailand SME ERP), to find us.

</comment><comment><USER29> Sorry but there are still too many issues. For example setting a recurring invoice is crazy complex.

Also still no paypal integration, Google checkout, stripe, paymil etc.

<comment><USER30> > still no paypal integration, Google checkout, stripe, paymil etc.

Not sure what you're aiming at but ERPs are not magento plugins.

<comment><USER29> I want to be able to send a paypal links or alternate payment methods in my invoices. Like freshbooks does.

<comment><USER31> Then why not use Freshbooks? Or another SME account SaaS like Xero?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Took me all of 30 seconds to break your demo website. Started throwing unhandled 'get_title' javascript exceptions at me non-stop.

You honestly expect me to make a professional recommendation for software I can't even show the demo for? SAP sucks, we all know but I fail to see how your product sucks any less except for the price tag. Is that your pitch? We suck just like SAP but for less money.

<comment><USER17> Hi! I'm not from OpenERP S.A., but we're a partner company.

Sorry you have problems with it. Can you tell me what browser did you use? I ask you because OpenERP 7.0 doesn't support IE 8 or lower, unless they have the Chrome Frame installed.

<comment><USER32> Hi. I'm on HN. I'm running the latest google chrome.

I'm not going to go back and open up the developer tools to see which part of the buggy javascript UI crashed. I will say again though that the UI was throwing 'unhandled exceptions'. Do I really need to defend myself here? When is it ever a good idea for a user of a piece of software; especially ERP software which by it's very nature will interact with non-technical users constantly, to ever see an unhandled exception. Come on.

Just for fun. I went back to their website: demo1.openerp.com. It takes 2 seconds to crash their websites by interacting with it. Just click on their navigation links on the top of the page quickly.

Here is a link: <http://imgur.com/fp8oW>

This is an easily reproducible problem. Come on.

<comment><USER33> You got more than I did. I just got a stack trace after clicking the [Create] button.

        OpenERP Server Error
        Client Traceback (most recent call last):
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/http.py", line 195, in dispatch
            response["result"] = method(self, **self.params)
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/controllers/main.py", line 724, in create
            params['create_admin_pwd'])
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/session.py", line 28, in proxy_method
            result = self.session.send(self.service_name, method, *args)
          File "/home/odoo/source/web/addons/web/session.py", line 95, in send
            raise xmlrpclib.Fault('AccessDenied', str(e))

        Server Access denied.

<comment><USER32> Technically, you got more than I did. =)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Can someone explain the "OpenERP AGPL + Private Use" license? I don't really understand how that works. How can they selectively make modules private/not under the AGPL?

<comment><USER3> OpenERP has a bunch of license crap (read violations). They switched from GPLv3 to AGPL overnight claiming that "OpenERP SA" (the company behind OpenERP) owns the entire codebase. Looking at it from many sides:

* the product is NOT open source if a single company owns the entire copyright ? why will they not call it proprietary tomorrow ? (they don't have a contributor agreement either)

* AGPL is the wrong license to have for an ERP system. In addition to all its ambiguity, AGPL software "must offer an ... opportunity for all users interacting with your Program through a computer network to request immediate transmission by HTTP of the complete source code of your modified version or other derivative work" [1]. Does that mean that 2500 users of the software in your company should be able to download the source code of your ERP to comply ?

For me, the license switch was to make the software impractical to use for any serious business and offer a "private use" license at a price as a vendor lock in.

[1] <http://www.affero.org/oagf.html>

<comment><USER2> Not sure I agree with you here. The AGPL keeps the code completely open and free to use...the only thing it does is insure that you have to pay OpenERP for a commercial license _if you want to keep any customizations or custom modules you've developed private_.

What's wrong with that? First, I'm free to use the code at no charge to me. I'm even free to customize it as much as I'd like...I just have to make a link available to those customizations that my users can access. I have no problem personally doing this...none of our users would have any interest in the code we develop. If I do decide downstream that I'd like to develop a private module, I can approach OpenERP and subscribe. I've already received pricing, and their cost for 1000 users annually is cheaper than what I pay for our commercial ERP for 100 users.

The way I see it, the AGPL insures that OpenERP (the company) gets their due for giving away the code. Nothing more. Seems fair.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Unfortunately there is no support for BPMN 2. If you are working in "Business IT" and do not know about BPMN 2, please wake up, thanks.

</comment><comment><USER36> I don't get it, how do i export, for example, some account's journal entries to Excel, or the list of fixed assets?

</comment><comment><USER37> Competition is always good. But... Why interfaces are SO ugly?

<comment><USER38> If you're competing with SAP, then an ugly interface is a must-have.

<comment><USER39> It's how enterprise customers know you are Serious Business (TM).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Though where is the ERP software for mom and pop shops?

<comment><USER17> If they're willing to invest a little in training, I'd say OpenERP is a fine solution. There's no recurrent licensing to pay and it runs just fine on any decent computer. As long as they don't need custom development or third-party modules, they shouldn't even need much technical support.

<comment><USER40> I've looked for training here in Romania, I couldn't find anything clear on the topic: what is provided and for what price.

<comment><USER17> I don't know if OpenERP S.A. has an office in Romania, but their Romanian partners will probably be glad to help you: <http://v6.openerp.com/ed- classified/tid/97>

<comment><USER40> I've already checked them: * <http://www.erpsystems.ro/> -> this is a demo * <http://www.apersis.ro/openerp.html> -> under construction * <http://www.openerpsaas.com/en/package-details> (from Elastoffice) -> it's not very clear to me if they provide training * <http://www.openerp-romania.ro/> -> just a "contact us" form * <http://www.intellisys.ro> -> couldn't find anything about OpenERP

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> It's hard to write something as crappy in Python as OpenERP.</comment>


Envisioning Development: What is Affordable Housing? - <AUTHOR> http://envisioningdevelopment.net/map <comment><USER2> It's not the housing that costs. It's the land underneath the housing that is valuable. The reasons are demand and supply. The supply is fixed, the demand can vary greatly for a number of reasons. However, the only way to lower the price to live on that land is to make it in less demand, which means making the area less attractive to live in. Hardly what anyone wants.

<comment><USER3> You can sort of increase supply by building taller buildings.

<comment><USER4> zoning prevents the market from meeting demand properly. the justification is preventing externalities such as turning what was a nice small town into a condo complex etc. but the citizens who want to keep it a small town shouldn't do so at the end of a gun (legislation), if they want it they should pay for it.

<comment><USER5> The problem with this argument is that the citizens who want to keep a small town small were there first. They created and/or maintain the urban environment that makes the location appealing for the would-be condo builder. As such they have the right to make whatever rules they want within certain limits -- think of it as a "private" club that has a specific membership requirement (you must live within the prescribed boundaries to join.) If I join your club I should expect to abide by the rules set by the members according to the process that existed when I joined, just because I think the walls of the clubhouse should be painted blue doesn't mean that I can decide on a whim paint a small part of the wall. If the condo-builder wants to create a building as tall as he wants then he should find some piece of land that does not have restrictions attached to it, build his condo, and see if the people come...

Zoning restrictions are a part of the market. If it were not for the restrictions the land would have a different value. Part of what makes a piece of property valuable are the side-effects of these very restrictions.

<comment><USER4> um...so do the townspeople collectively own the entire town? including each other's lots? because if a lot is private property, nothing prevents me from selling my lot to a condo builder. I think that you could have a system like the one you describe be just, simply have people own shares in the town. voting stock is a much better system than universal suffrage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've been thinking about what would happen if I decided to work on my startup full time in NYC, where I live now, and I always end up thinking that it would be pretty hard to live in that "extremely low income" category. Does anyone have any tips on how to really cut costs? Besides moving somewhere else of course.

<comment><USER7> I personally wouldn't live in NYC for less than $80K.

Reasons: you'll pay ~$1.5K / mo to live in dumpy but reasonably safe housing with a roommate. That includes utilities which are _fucking expensive_ in NYC. Also, it's humid as hell, so you will use your A/C 5-6 months per year. Make sure you have it. Many apartments come without kitchens or with tiny, dilapidated kitchens. Expect to eat out every meal.

The good news is there are lots of places to eat well for $6-$10 per meal. This actually isn't that bad an idea when you look at the exorbitant price of food in NYC.

You will pay city tax with a top marginal rate of ~3.5% (IIRC) after about $60K or so of income. My numbers might be a little off but not that far. Basically, if you make about $85K, you'll pay $3+K for the privilege of living in the city. Sales tax is high too -- 9+%. Your apartment will be tiny so you'll hang out with friends in restaurants or bars. You'll be shocked how easy it is to spend $100 on a night out.

The only cheap thing in the city is low end food, metro passes, and cab fare. Take advantage of them. Don't have a car -- it cost us $525/mo to park our car in the city, and that's with free dents and attendants who stole all the cables we left in it.

The bright side is this: if your expectation of public transit has been set by SF -- where transit is complete shit -- you'll be amazed by the subway. Pay to live near an express stop; it's worth it.</comment></comment>


IBM Wins $83M from Groupon in E-Commerce Patent Fight - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-27/ibm-wins-83-million-from-groupon-in-e-commerce-patents-case <comment><USER2> 2016 article with more details: [https://arstechnica.com/tech- policy/2016/03/ibm-sues-groupon...](https://arstechnica.com/tech- policy/2016/03/ibm-sues-groupon-saying-it-infringes-patents-related- to-1990s-prodigy-service/)

It links to the original lawsuit ([https://arstechnica.com/wp- content/uploads/2016/03/IBM.Group...](https://arstechnica.com/wp- content/uploads/2016/03/IBM.Groupon.Patent.Complaint.pdf)) as well as the 4 patents: 5,796,967, 7,072,849, 5,961,601, and 7,631,346

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just purely out of curiosity when reading this. It seems like a lot of companies license these specific patents (eg. Twitter, Alphabet) as mentioned in the article. Does anyone know what patents they were referring to?</comment>


Magic mushrooms should be decriminalised - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/06/06/magic-mushrooms-should-be-decriminalised <comment><USER2> I suffer from chronic migraines.

Psilocybin mushrooms, and other psychedelics are one of the few things that truly alleviate the suffering, which for me is now over 25 days a month. With my prescriptions covering half of that timeframe on a good month.

I might have shot myself if it wasn't for discovering this application for psychedelics after developing the condition.

For my sake, and for the sake of others suffering migraines, please educate yourself on this use case. Regardless of your opinion on psychedlic decriminalization, I absolutely implore you.

<comment><USER3> Out of curiosity, have you tried the triptan class of drugs? They are migraine pills that have some similarities to the tryptamines but are not psychoactive.

<comment><USER2> Yes. I get about 9 tablets a month covered by insurance. 9 tablets willl last me maybe 4 or 5 days. My doctor prescribes two different triptans as well as fioricet to help bridge the gap.

Imitrex has largely the same effect on my migraines as psilocybin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wish people would stop calling them magic mushrooms. The forces against legalization take every opportunity to refer to "magic mushrooms." There is nothing magical about them. Hallucinogens are awesome chemicals and can affect profound positive and negatives effects on us. They should be treated with care and afforded serious dignity, especially in calls for legalization.

</comment><comment><USER5> So should LSD and ectasy/MDMA, cocaine and heroin.

I don't use these drugs but it's a good thing for our society if they are available cheap and clean to people who want/need them.

They should be sold behind the counter from pharmacies and not allowed to be advertised, same as cigarettes in Australia.

When drugs are illegal it results in crime and health issues.

<comment><USER6> The article talks about decriminalization, not legalization.

Decriminalization means that you are still not allowed to sell the product in a legitimate business. If you get caught with it, instead of going in front of a judge - possibly getting a criminal record and jail time - you will get a fine and no record. This lowers the priority for the police and prosecutor to track you down.

I think the US should really start thinking about decriminalizing the use of _all_ drugs. It's crazy to destroy live for use of psychoactive substances. But legalization is a whole other story, the opioid crisis would look pale in comparison to the aftermath of selling high quality MDMA/Cocaine/Heroin with a doctors note.

<comment><USER7> > It's crazy to destroy live for use of psychoactive substances

No, it's not. Those who purchase drugs directly fund illegal gangs and cartels, who kill, maim, and torture people. Over the course of years of drug use, drug users have likely funded dozens of murders, mutilations, wars, etc, for nothing other than personal pleasure.

It's fine to think drugs should be decriminalized, but to claim it's a victimless crime or isn't destructive, is simply ignoring reality.

<comment><USER8> >> It's crazy to destroy live for use of psychoactive substances

>No, it's not.

So it's acceptable to destroy lives for use of psychoactive substances?

I don't think you meant that exactly, I guess.

> Those who purchase drugs directly fund illegal gangs and cartels

If the problem is their illegality then _perhaps_ legalising drugs will ergo stop funding them.

Just crying 'illegal' means nothing _if_ their very illegality is the problem, that the laws are unjust, such as the all-too-legal apartheid in south africa.

If it is then legalise. If there's more that's causing the problem then we need to pin that down, but 'illegal' alone is not - IMO - enough.

<comment><USER7> If by 'destroy lives' you mean duly punish those who willingly and materially support murder, torture, and lawlessness for the sake of their addiction, yes.

> If the problem is their illegality then perhaps legalising drugs will ergo > stop funding them.

I used to believe this, but California's experience in Marijuana legalization and the subsequent wave of terror in Humuboldt county indicate that gangs are not interested in becoming legitimate businesses. Two things happen: real businesses set up and are threatened by gang violence and gangs set up seemingly legitimate fronts that continue to funnel money.

> Just crying 'illegal' means nothing if their very illegality is the problem, > that the laws are unjust, such as the all-too-legal apartheid in south > africa.

But the laws are not unjust, it is a well accepted legal reality that governments the world over have a right to control substances, especially drugs. There are many drugs you cannot receive without a prescription and most people believe this is not only ethically sound but ethically necessary.

Regardless, buying drugs from people who you know will use the money for drug wars (pretty much every illegal drug today) is still morally wrong, independent of the state of the law. If you chose to buy your hamburgers from drug lords, I'd think you guilty of the same thing.

<comment><USER8> > If by 'destroy lives' you mean duly punish those who willingly and > materially support murder, torture, and lawlessness for the sake of their > addiction, yes.

To your eyes it's one thing. To mine it might be another. I have a strong feeling the government is to blame for creating this.

> and the subsequent wave of terror in Humuboldt county

If you wish to say this at least post some links. The ones I've found do support what you say up to a point eg <[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/califor...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/01/california- marijuana-crime/576391/>). But it is an unstable situation at the moment as the story indicates, and it also says "found that after medical marijuana was legalized in California, violent crime fell 15 percent." (but temporarily it seems)

> But the laws are not unjust, it is a well accepted legal reality that > governments the world over have a right to control substances

There we disagree utterly. Please see an earlier post of mine <[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20165080>](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20165080>).

And 'well accepted' isn't justified here. And 'have a right' I don't automatically accept.

> most people believe this is not only ethically sound but ethically necessary

Sigh. Justify 'most'

> Regardless, buying drugs from people who you know will use the money for > drug wars (pretty much every illegal drug today) is still morally wrong

Yep. I would like to buy from a source that is well regulated and does not feed crime. We agree.

> If you chose to buy your hamburgers from drug lords, I'd think you guilty of > the same thing.

Yep. Difference is, I have a choice not to.

I think we're so far apart we can't possibly agree here.

<comment><USER7> > To your eyes it's one thing. To mine it might be another. I have a strong > feeling the government is to blame for creating this.

I actually agree the government is to blame for the ability of gangs to control the drug market, by making them illegal. However, I choose to pursue policy decisions based on the situation right now, not the situation that could have been. Decriminalization will not magically make this issue go away, anymore than withdrawing from the Middle East will mean America never has to deal with that part of the world again.

> Yep. I would like to buy from a source that is well regulated and does not > feed crime. We agree.

Certainly, and in the absence of a legal, moral way to acquire them, you should probably abstain, independent of what you think the government ought to do. Because the alternative is heinous.

<comment><USER9> > Decriminalization will not magically make this issue go away

Perhaps not. It's complicated either way. But legalizing alcohol did remove the bootlegging gangs

<comment><USER7> Indeed, it's complicated. One thing that is interesting to note though is that, while Prohibition is frequently cast historically as a failure, it did lead to a significant reduction in alcohol consumption, as seen in the drop in cirrhosis cases. Thus, legalization also needs to be ready to handle the inevitably greater public health risks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> One of my greatest regrets from my days [legally] selling Magic Mushrooms here in the UK many years ago was being on holiday when The Economist called to interview us (we were essentially 'market leaders'). As an Economist subscriber back then I would've leapt at the opportunity. As it was (if memory serves) my partners were reticent to talk to them, presuming they'd take a more moral stance than I would've expected, and that they took.

Oh well.

</comment><comment><USER11> DMT seems to have either cured or greatly minimized my ADHD. Psilocybin is very close to dimethyltryptamine. I fully support the destigmatization of psychedelics.

</comment><comment><USER12> They're legal in Brazil, yet we don't have any treatment for depression based on them.

</comment><comment><USER13> People that believe psycotropic drugs should be legalized should spend a night in LAs skid row.

By morning, they'll be very much in favor of keeping that shit as controlled as possible.

<comment><USER14> Arguably, a significant percentage of skid row's residents wouldn't be there if they had the option of buying a clean, consistent dose from a pharmacy. Instead, they have to buy dangerously tainted drugs from professional criminals, and pay hugely inflated prices for it.

Highly recommend the book Chasing the Scream by Johann Hari if you're interested in reading a persuasive version of this viewpoint.

<comment><USER13> _Arguably, a significant percentage of skid row's residents wouldn't be there if they had the option of buying a clean, consistent dose from a pharmacy. Instead, they have to buy dangerously tainted drugs from professional criminals, and pay hugely inflated prices for it._

This isn't even remotely true. There are plenty of homeless people in Skid Row that are there even though their drug of choice is alcohol, available cheap from the nearest liquor store, grocery, etc.

I've read Chasing the Scream and it's not a useful viewpoint on this subject.</comment></comment></comment>