Amazon will launch its own delivery service to compete with FedEx, UPS - <AUTHOR> https://bgr.com/2018/02/09/amazon-delivery-service-swa-fedex-ups/ <comment><USER4> This bgr article has unfortunately completely misunderstood what the news is.

> Amazon may be a one stop shop for home goods, electronics, furniture, > clothing and more, but in order to actually get items to your home, the > e-commerce giant has to depend on delivery services like FedEx and UPS

No, amazon already has its own logistics company that operates in many locations. The news is that it is now going to offer this to as a service to ship _other companies '_ packages.

From the linked WSJ article:

> Dubbed "Shipping with Amazon," or SWA, the new service will entail the tech > giant picking up packages from businesses and shipping them to consumers, > according to people familiar with the matter.

<comment><USER5> From the bgr article:

> Dubbed "Shipping with Amazon" (SWA), the service will pick up packages from > businesses and deliver them to customers.

> Sources claims that Amazon will begin rolling out the service in Los Angeles > within the next few weeks in Los Angeles with third-party sellers that do > business through Amazon.com.

Seems like the same news.

<comment><USER6> If so, the bgr article's author has not expressed it clearly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Their delivery service is frustrating. It seems to be the norm, and accepted, that drivers will mark packages delivered a full 24 hours ahead of time and do the delivery the next day, presumably to meet delivery requirements.

I've also had these individuals basically solicit me for a tip, recounting how they're underpaid, etc.

I really don't like this move to try to uber-ify package delivery. UPS/FedEx have their bad moments, but at least I don't have to worry that the employees are under too much duress to deliver, or are on the edge of unreasonably compensated.

<comment><USER8> One Amazon delivery guy knocked on my door so aggressively around 7am that I thought he was trying to break in.

<comment><USER9> I had one earlier this week call my phone repeatedly before 6 AM (breaking through the "do not disturb) to complain he couldn't find one of my packages in his car.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I have had Amazon folks in my neighborhood: leave packages on the sidewalk, throw packages over fences and ask me for a tip.

These are antecdotal, but if Amazon wants to catch up to a company like UPS, they have a ton of ground to make up. Delivering packages is really hard work, believe it or not, and underpaying someone to do it isn't going to bring about the results you're after, guaranteed.

<comment><USER11> Was coming here to post the same thing. The vans in my area are unbranded, the employees unprofessional and the delivery is sloppy. "Soft" expenses such as uniforms and paint make a difference on perception, as would better supervision and training.

I also wonder, in the drivers' defense, if the delivery schedule is unrealistic. I can better understand lobbing a box on the lawn if you're 10 deliveries behind.

<comment><USER12> An unmarked van isn't too welcome in some parts around me. Some people are downright defensive about visitors on their road. On the other hand, a recognizable UPS or FedEx is likely to get a friendly wave.

Amazon would do well to paint their logo on the van, but maybe it isn't their van.

Branding matters.

<comment><USER13> What area is this out of curiosity?

<comment><USER14> I can't answer for the grandparent, but it's not an uncommon situation in the eastern Washington/northern Idaho area. Much of it is rural enough that there's very little reason to be on many roads unless it's a delivery driver or something illegal. They're not roads you'd even end up on if lost -- it's a deliberate choice.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> IMO this is very bad news for the economy. Amazon will do very well as a delivery service, because unlike competition they have underpaid and overworked deliverers. They basically uberified delivery. The costs are much lower, but delivery jobs will shift to low paid, no benefits 'gigs'. Amazon is more and more scary as it monopolizes more and more businesses.

<comment><USER16> Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service."

Not sure how increasing competition in any space creates a monopoly.

<comment><USER17> There's a difference between a new entrant appearing, and a firm with a monopolistic presence in one (or more) areas extending vertically into others.

Note that Amazon has a distinct and proven track record of utilising its monopoly position to squeeze competing _and complementary_ firms in other spaces. Notably with Hachette.

[http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon- and-...](http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-and-hachette- explained-20140602-story.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's interesting reading the comments in this thread as they seem to be very much from a US standpoint. Here in the UK it's rare for Amazon packages to be sent by anything other than Amazon Logistics. There are issues with misdelivery or leaving things in plain view, but the same is true of their competitors such as Yodel. The difference with Amazon is that even if they've taken a photo of a safe place as 'proof' of delivery for an item they don't argue if you report it as undelivered.

Prime gives you free next day delivery, including outside of business hours and weekends, and sometimes free same day depending on their logistics. Overall, buying from Amazon and having them deliver it is a better than average experience.

<comment><USER19> Logistics in the UK are quite different than in the US. In fact, I always thought the UK was a bit more innovative when it came to shipping. For example, shipping lockers are still quite new in the US. In fact, I think Amazon owns the only lockers I've ever seen in person.

As a side note, I will also apologize if you've ever used Yodel, since a small part of my development efforts went towards their early logistics systems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Their service with their existing delivery service (Amazon Logistics) has been TERRIBLE thus far. Lazy drivers leaving packages in clear sight in the middle of the driveway, unreliable delivery estimates, etc.

This last Christmas season, everything shipped from Amazon via UPS / FedEx arrived on time as expected. Everything Amazon shipped via their AMZN Logistics / USPS was late, 50% arrived after Christmas even when ordered on December 14.

We've stopped shopping at Amazon in favor of other vendors who let you pick your shipping service. Their customer service just keeps collecting information, but it's not getting any better.

> If SWA is cheaper than FedEx or UPS, you can bet that customers will opt for > Amazon's service instead.

You get what you pay for... I'll avoid Amazon until I can pick my own RELIABLE carrier. UPS & FedEx have shown they are reliable.

<comment><USER21> I've noticed that Amazon has been silently bumping shipping estimates for my prime account. Ordered something on Monday morning that said it would arrive Wednesday. I get to Wednesday and didn't notice a shipping notification - <USER2> look at my amazon account and my formerly "guaranteed" delivery date now just said expected by February 7-8. Wednesday "or" Thursday.

On the other hand, I ordered something from bestbuy with their normal free shipping and it showed up on my doorstep literally the day after.

<comment><USER22> I've started contacting customer service and requesting compensation when this happens. I tell them politely I pay for prime benefit and you are not granting me that benefit, therefore I receive a reduced prime fee.

I have had $10 and $5 credits given to me when this happens and I encourage everyone else to. Amazon needs to support the benefits they grant customers for prime.

<comment><USER23> Yes. More of this. Amazon is starting to slip. It takes literally 1 minute on support text-chat to do this and it always saves more $ with less hassle than you would have if you went with another site. I've done this 3-4 times and every time I say it's the Nth time I've had to do it and they keep offering more and more.

What's especially annoying is that you have to pro-actively reach out to them. This isn't customer-obsessed.

<comment><USER24> I think I found a weekend project. Code an Amazon late delivery chat bot. Doesn't seem too hard.

Login and grab orders that are shipped. Compare delivery date (x). See if it changes or matches the estimate at time of order(y). If I package is deemed late create a message containing x and y and order number. Open chat support paste message. Might have to throw some additional canned responses but it seems pretty easy.

<comment><USER25> Paribus.co does exactly this

<comment><USER23> Kinda cool - it does the first part based on what I see. It lets you know that they dropped the ball on delivery, but it's still on you to contact customer- service. Probably not a bad thing but I wish it went just a bit further - perhaps opening the chat for me and pre-populating a chat on the clipbooard or something....

<comment><USER25> What do you mean "it's still on you to contact customer service"?

Paribus contacts customer service to Amazon on your behalf for missed packages. Literally they open a ticket with amazon and complain.[0]

[0]: [https://paribus.co/support/topics/purchases-and- claims/274](https://paribus.co/support/topics/purchases-and-claims/274)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> So far my experience with Amazon's delivery service has been pretty negative. Expensive packages going missing, packages delivered to the wrong address, attempts to deliver packages to business addresses outside of business hours etc.

Personally I would prefer the option of Amazon allowing me to pick the carrier I want to use rather than simply go with lowest cost. In most cases I value reliability over lower cost.

<comment><USER27> I ordered a graphics card from Newegg back in November and it got shipped via FedEx. What was really nice with Fedex was that I could have it shipped to my house, or pick from any FedEx or several Walgreens locations for pickup.

Since it was an expensive package I chose to pick it up from a Walgreens near my office.

Amazon's shipping is faster, but Newegg/FedEx shipping was a much better experience. It told me who was shipping the package up front and let me choose from several delivery options via that carrier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Just to chime in here about how terrible and unaccountable the delivery service is -

I bought a part for my bike that on first attempt went to the wrong intermediate routing center. They marked it as undeliverable instead of just rerouting it. I had to get a refund and was promised a $25 credit to my next purchase. That didn't happen.

I ordered the same item again. It was lost in transit. Got refund with no credit.

It took the third try to get my item. I selected same day delivery on the previous two but not the third.

I live in San Francisco and the item was in their Fremont fullfillment center. So....?

<comment><USER27> If they didn't give you a credit that promised you should follow up and hold them accountable. They should have logs of account actions, and if not, you should save a log of the chat where it was promised.

<comment><USER29> Further to this, my £10 credit for missed deliveries could only be applied to items _sold by_ and shipped from Amazon. No third party sellers. It also only showed up right at the end of the checkout process just before the final click.

Mentioning because I both thought I hadn't been credited with it (first time of chasing Amazon I actually hadn't it turned out...) and then was miffed I could only use it on a subset of items.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Under/Over 10 years after Bezos retires, does Amazon end up looking like GE does now? This spree of Amazon getting into markets that are already at near- perfect competition levels is a bit worrying. How many people could reasonably handle a business this complicated, with so many competitors?

<comment><USER31> > This spree of Amazon getting into markets that are already at near-perfect > competition levels

Is this true? Retail shipping is not nearly that competitive, at least from a very naive consumer standpoint looking in.

Amazon can ship stuff at 20-30% of the cost I would pay as a small business to UPS. Using UPS.

Seems like there is a ton of margin there to be captured.

<comment><USER32> Shipping is very competitive. These are some of the most seasoned and efficient businesses, by necessity, in the world.

If Amazon is shipping things cheaper, it's because they are using it as a loss leader. You don't really think it costs them $0 to ship things, do you?

<comment><USER31> > If Amazon is shipping things cheaper, it's because they are using it as a > loss leader. You don't really think it costs them $0 to ship things, do you?

No, I'm specifically talking about actual dollars paid to UPS. I run (ran) a small business, and we shipped about a pallet or two (overall) a week. Amazon's leaked UPS rates a few years back were about 30% of our already heavily discounted (from what a retail customer would pay) rates. Where did the $0 shipping comment come from?

You also can commit to a spend with Fedex/UPS of relatively small amounts (4 figures/mo) and get an immediate and painless 25-40% off immediately.

Like I said there is a lot of margin there, at least in certain segments of the business. I'm just not sure how much or where exactly the costs are (there may be very legitimate reasons why serving Amazon costs less than half of serving me) to know if there is a retail cost play.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I order something or other from Amazon every couple weeks and, living in Chicago, have often gotten it via Amazon delivery for a year or two now. It just seems like one problem after another: not actually dropping the package off, hiding the package in a crevice between buildings, very often not arriving when quoted, rude calls from drivers because I'm not at home. Add to this problems with worker pay and treatment, and I'll stick to UPS whenever possible.

</comment><comment><USER19> I used to work for a company that did logistic software, and Amazon creating their own last-mile service was something they predicted years ago.

It's a nightmare for them because it will ultimately take business away from every carrier, and more sellers will ultimately want to use Amazon's service over time. The margins in shipping are already razor-thin, and Amazon would easily be able to take the loss to choke other competitors out.

<comment><USER34> Can you post a source about the carriers margins being paper thin because looking at the last annual reports for FedEx and UPS, it doesn't seem to be the case. The biggest expense for them is labor and I think Amazon is going to do a good job of controlling that cost. Goodbye Teamsters.

<comment><USER19> Sorry, guess I should of been more specific. Margin is thin per package, because shipping is a volume game. Sending a package is actually pretty cheap for most businesses, but unless you have volume, you have no leverage to get a reduced rate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I would actually pay extra, to Amazon, for Amazon _not_ to deliver their own package, the service is that bad.

</comment><comment><USER36> Amazon logistics has a habit around here of delivering packages at 11pm to make the delivery day requirements...I can't help but feel it's yet another huge organization wringing out their employees because hey, employees are expendable.

</comment><comment><USER37> ..to complete with FedEX, UPS and USPS, with later one being the worst of them all. Amazon has been stockpiling used cargo aircrafts for some time now in Seattle (hint..hint) and creating a delivery service at grass root city level makes much more sense for them because 1) you are not relying to ship goods from your regional warehouses often 2) this helps you get tax benefits by bringing in delivery jobs locally 3) expedited shipping of common use products such toilet papers, toothpaste etc that do not need to get shipped from regional warehouses. A lot of time your late delivery complaint just ended up you getting a $5 credit or a month waiver from your annual prime membership because Amazon can't hold USPS delivery guy accountable as it can to one of its own.

</comment><comment><USER38> Amzn shipping has changed for the much worse in the last two years, guessing to prioritize prime customers?

We used to get our items shipped promptly and they would arrive slowly but surely in about a week. You would see progress at e.g. ups/usps.

Now they sit on your order for a week then send it and it arrives in two weeks. If you call and complain they will two-day ship it. Much less progress is visible as well, leaving you to wonder the whole time and bother support.

How can that make any financial sense? How can sitting on it for a week make sense? They still have to deliver all the packages, now they're a week behind.

Have done business with them for ~20 years and considering another merchant where treated with respect.

</comment><comment><USER39> I hope they replace their Prime delivery routes first. UPS and FedEx are decent. Amazon's Prime delivery in NYC is awful. They toss packages near doors. Report attempting delivery and that no one was home without bothering to even show up at the building. Even the ones that actually deliver will hit every doorbell of a multi-unit apartment building until someone buzzes them and then open the front door and toss the box into the front hallway.

<comment><USER40> This hope seems to ride on the chance that Amazon gives its own drivers more time to deliver a package than they do for contractors they currently control.

Seems just as likely the reverse will happen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> We've been having problem with packages stink with cigarette smell to the point that we have to open the packages outside of the house and the wash our hands.

</comment><comment><USER42> When Amazon completely dominates the online market and all its aspects, wouldn't it be in a GREAT position to charge customers much much more? Would it still need to be "competitive"?

<comment><USER43> This is what they did to all the prices on Amazon. Started cheap or at a loss and now prices are equal to or more expensive than going to a normal store.

<comment><USER44> Examples? Certainly nothing I purchase regularly is cheaper in a store. Especially considering the inconvenience of a store, and 5% cashback on everything.

<comment><USER45> Specifically, a package of 3 bars of Cetaphil soap in my local walmart is less than 10$ to walk out the door with. Compare that to prices on amazon that range from the same price as in store, to over $20 with shipping excluded!

Another example, this time a slightly more bulk item, is ramen noodles [0]. They are around 20 cents a noodle in local stores, while amazon lists them around 50 cents per noodle (even in large 36 packs)

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/Maruchan-chicken-noodle-soup- pack/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Maruchan-chicken-noodle-soup- pack/dp/B00MHBX8AE/ref=sr_1_17_s_it?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1518203407&sr=1-17&keywords=ramen)

<comment><USER44> Oh, I don't buy day to day grocery store stuff on Amazon.

<comment><USER45> I was keying off of your "purchase regularly" comment. Either way, the only products that amazon seems to offer at a reasonably competitive price, factoring in shipping, is amazon basics items, and that's because they can do to the supply chain the same thing walmart did.

<comment><USER44> Eh. Books, water filters, video games, camera lenses/filters, bags, lawn fertilizer, shoes, movies. All of that stuff is definitely cheaper on amazon than anywhere else. Big ticket items especially. Factor in 5% back, and you get most of your tax, or straight up 5% off tax free items. Can't really beat 2day prime shipping, and no hassle returns.

<comment><USER46> When was the last time you actually comparison shopped? I don't find Amazon's prices to be particularly great in those categories, more than "average to poor." Your "free two day shipping" isn't free, it's prepaid.

For electronics, for example, I find that Newegg provides much better service and lightning fast shipping at compatible prices.

Also "stores" deliver too (target.com, walmart.com, bestbuy.com, etc).

<comment><USER44> I comparison shop EVERY item I purchase. I used to be a hardcore shopper on Newegg, Amazon will consistently beat them. Newegg went down that messy third party route, and it's been a disaster ever since. The shipping is hit or miss, Shoprunner is rarely supported since they began offering their version of prime, whatever it's called. I have "Keepa" notifiers on everything, and catch lightning/warehouse/price drops on everything. I'm definitely not going to go digging around Walmart/Target daily for $5 BluRay titles.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Will? I've gotten two or three packages this way.

On the plus side you get a picture of the package at your door (or whatever) so you know they left it.

But it doesn't integrate well with my delivery tracking app. They don't know to drop packages at the package desk at my apartment complex instead of leaving them on my doorstep to be stolen.

Interesting to see them go more vertical though.

<comment><USER48> Are those third party contractors or an Amazon service? Here we have some random guys driving around in their own cars throwing packages on your stoop. This sounds like a more formal courier operated by Amazon themselves.

<comment><USER49> Amazon operates the delivery center. Most drivers are subcontracted through a couple different messenger companies and use rented Ford Transits, and the randos in their own cars take care of the rest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I think it's pretty telling that there are 200 comments here and not a single one praises AMZL.

I think I saw one person who said he/she hadn't had any specifically bad experiences with AMZL, but that most of his/her deliveries are UPS anyway.

The phrase "piss-poor" comes to mind.

</comment><comment><USER51> This is an interesting strategy. The "build a service for internal use, then make it a service" strategy worked for them with AWS and web stores, but it failed for Amazon Fresh (but they are trying to turn it around with Whole Foods), and now they're trying again with shipping logistics.

Personally I've found them so-so, and certainly not great. I frequently get calls from drivers that are lost that can't find my new-ish street and need some help. It's certainly fine that the _first_ one gets lost, but when the _second_ one gets lost it's apparent that the organization isn't building up any knowledge about hard-to-find customers. This is a moat they could build, but they're not interested.

</comment><comment><USER52> As a counterpoint to all the negative comments about AMZL (Amazon Logistics), I've never had an issue with them, and generally order 10+ items from Amazon a month. That said, I don't look at how my order is being delivered (generally it's UPS and OnTrac).

My only issue is that I'll see random cars driving slowly through my neighborhood (probably looking for the right house number to deliver to), which usually triggers me to think of suspicious activity.

</comment><comment><USER53> I hope they unionize quickly and then put in rules to not allow from me deliveries to take away union jobs. Have them play on an even field.

</comment><comment><USER54> Amazon's delivery service now (in my area, anyway) takes a photo of the package once it's placed on your doorstep, and the Amazon iPhone app confirmation includes a notice showing the photo.

It's been a nice feature for me, until one driver put the package on my front porch, but then too, a photo from their car of my entire house as the delivery confirmation photo.

<comment><USER55> This doesn't really seem that innovative to me -- even the postal service can send you an email of what is in your mailbox.

<comment><USER56> It solves the biggest problem that I had with AMZL, which is when the courier claims they delivered a package when they didn't. What happens is that the same day couriers will get overloaded and be unable to finish their routes by the 9PM delivery deadline, so they'll just drive by and mark delivered (I think it's a GPS thing) and then drop it off in the morning. Some times they never deliver it at all. The picture eliminates this bullshit, as they must show the package on my doorstep.

I haven't had this problem since AMZL started taking pictures, but I also haven't tried Same Day delivery as much. I'll have to give it another shot to see what happens.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> FedEx and UPS should have cut Amazon off while they could still kill them.

<comment><USER58> Or bought them / merged.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> When I see a delivery coming from Amazon I know I won't get it until 5-6PM or even later. UPS or FedEx have found a way to get it here by 10AM.

It often results in delivery delays as well, FedEx and UPS deliveries for Amazon orders are rarely late.

Maybe it's due to more drivers and trucks, but so far I'm not a fan of Amazons delivery and would pay more not to use it.

<comment><USER60> It's definitely a regional thing. For us UPS is awful- we live on "first" street and they constantly deliver our packages to the same house number only on "second" street.

Nothing is worse than finding out a package was shipped with OnTrac though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> Nothing new here [1], they've been doing this for the past 5+ years. They are still at least half a decade away from taking away any significant volume from FedEx or UPS.

[1] - [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12600094](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12600094)

</comment><comment><USER62> Between launching a delivery service to compete with FedEx/UPS/etc and a health service to compete with Cigna/UHG/etc I wonder if Amazon is starting to overreach? Perhaps this thread also supports this theory with some (admittedly small) antidotal evidence its Amazon retail issues?

</comment><comment><USER63> I much prefer an Amazon Locker, or the equivalent postal self-service lockers in my country. I hate the synchronicity of home deliveries. Either I'm at work and not home, or somewhere else but not home. And if I'm home I still have to plan around the expected delivery to be around so that I can sign it off.

With self-pickups it easy. Once I know the package has been delivered I'll just do a little bit of planning to get it on my way next time I'm out.

Deliveries are hard. That's why all logistics and delivery companies are famous for giving bad service because it's nearly impossible to repeatedly do well on such an unforgiving line of work. And this is from companies that have decades of experience to organise deliveries. I'm not holding my breath with Amazon's own deliveries.

<comment><USER64> "Little bit of planning" is not easy for me, or for anyone who values the immediacy of Prime.

The obvious solution is to have lockers at homes, i.e., a secured box on your property that only delivery people to whom you've given a code can open. You can even introduce this concurrently with smart locks, so people who feel comfortable with it can just give the delivery guy a one-time code that opens the front door.

I know this has been experimented with, and I'm sure their are challenges, bit I've never been able to understand how it hasn't been worth solving.

<comment><USER65> > The obvious solution is to have lockers at homes

It's not uncommon to see this around dense housing. I've seen apartments where each unit has a small mail box, and there are (say) a dozen larger lockers off to the side. When USPS needs to deliver a package, they put it in one of the lockers, and then put the key to that locker in the recipient's mail box.

I suppose the system assumes that none of your neighbors clone those keys, but it seems at least a step in the right direction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> >If SWA is cheaper than FedEx or UPS, you can bet that customers will opt for Amazon's service instead.

Not me. I hate their Prime Now drivers and pretty often get things delivered to the wrong house, or not show up at all when my Amazon things are delivered through them. I don't think they will be able to replicate UPS's strong delivery service and employee benefits, and also don't think the savings will be passed to the consumer.

All in all, I think everyone except Amazon loses in this deal.

</comment><comment><USER67> Amazon can think they will build fedex in next 1 year. I think they're out of their depth. Building software is much different than building manual labour centric systems. Their efforts will be fruitless. To build a shopping website, where things are pretty much well interfaced, it took them, 20 years. Though, they do deserve credit for AWS. Again human systems aren't analogues to software system. They have fortune to spent, so let's spent.

<comment><USER68> They aren't building a FedEx in the next year. They already have have a logistics service, they are just opening it to third parties that aren't part of amazon marketplace.

<comment><USER67> Please read the implicit sarcasm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> If you regularly have troubles with AMZL failing to deliver packages, look into Amazon Lockers. I always get my Amazon packages delivered to a locker. 0% chance of failed delivery, 0% change of a package getting stolen.

It might be a little inconvenient to not have your stuff delivered to your door, but the inconvenience is trumped by the peace of mind.

Though personally, I'm lucky that my daily commute passes right by a locker, so there's no inconvenience.

</comment><comment><USER70> Here in Mexico Amazon has been getting contracts with crappy local couriers and the experience has been negative. DHL always did a great job in my area.

<comment><USER71> Yesterday I received a package in Mexico (from Amazon Mexico), the delivery man arrived in a private car. I was puzzled by the fact, but the package was fine, and delivered in time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> IMO news items like these are kind of indicative that we are approaching a stock market top. If Amazon feels that they need another "diversification" to generate more returns then we might be near a bull run high where everyone needs to go out of their comfort zone to make large returns.

</comment><comment><USER73> Recently I complained that UPS left a valuable package at the end of my long, and somewhat snowy but recently plowed driveway. The oil deliver, the USPS, and the plumber were all able to make it up the driveway.

The response I got from UPS was pathetic and passive aggressive: my driver will no longer even try to get up my driveway.

I suspect Amazon gets a lot of similar complaints with similarly unsatisfactory outcomes.

</comment><comment><USER74> Amazon's ambition is getting a little, hmm, out of hand. Eventually Amazon has to split up its businesses into multiple subsidies like Alphabet and Google. It is dangerous for a single company to hold such high valuation forever. Although I have to admit, Amazon's top managment seems very competent... perhaps I am wrong about the whole danger.

</comment><comment><USER75> I'd like to know how Amazon manages and organizes themselves with respect to leadership, teams, hierarchy, knowledge sharing and integration between different internal and external groups with everything they do and all of their business units. The fact that they succeed here is more amazing than any of the tech.

<comment><USER76> In my experience, Amazon is very good about focusing managers on facilitating talent and trusting engineers with implementation. Not in all orgs, granted, but the innovative / experimental ones are very engineering driven... even the managers generally have some first-hand engineering experience.

They're also good about keeping projects under single org trees - <USER3> engineers act as executors of the VP's will, bypassing slow human management chains. If a team slips on their roadmap, the senior engineer can immediately intervene to provide unblocking advice (possibly looping in other experts) and coordinating scheduling changes with dependent teams... that shadow technical hierarchy is very powerful. It's let some VPs / directors reorg every couple months to shift out bad people managers, knowing tactical implementation isn't being interrupted.

Knowledge management... I've heard Google is much better. Amazon's infrastructure is well documented, but bleeding-edge projects can be hit-or- miss. Their forte is strong separation of responsibilities... which usually means tribal knowledge.

edit:

I say "engineering" because I am one... but it's not just engineering. Amazon management focuses on hiring smart people they can trust to operate autonomously. That means less bureaucratic red tape, flat(ish) management chains, and effective direct communication. Talking "through" management, escalation, is a seen as a last-resort.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> FedEx and UPS had an opportunity there, to start their own online marketplace, and compete Amazon out of existence. But the window is closing, and now they will have the same thing happening _to them_. And it will be another instance of winner takes all.

</comment><comment><USER78> This method of allowing the delivery man to open the door to deposit the package inside is puzzling me. Why not having larger mailboxes? Possibly removable ones? Like a box that you would hang on your door whenever you expect a delivery?

</comment><comment><USER79> I have two initial thoughts, at odds with each other.

1\. Thus began the tale of the company that did too many things...

2\. Ah, just like they turned their own cloud expertise into AWS, they're turning their logistics into its own offering, brilliant!

</comment><comment><USER80> Amazon Prime delivers it's own orders in London for quite a while now. The good: delivers 7 days a week, fairly reliably. The bad: no delivery window email like DPD does, their live tracking map is just useless.

<comment><USER81> It's all over the UK. Anyone with a car or van can do it. Amazon doesn't "deliver it's own orders", it's given to a contractor.

<comment><USER82> Not sure if that's the case? I travel past a Amazon Prime Now Warehouse occasionally and they always have loads of white vans parked.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> Nobody at USPS has explained to me yet why the USPS carriers were instructed never to hold Amazon packages at the distribution center if someone wasn't home to receive them. Maybe this is part of why?

</comment><comment><USER84> This feels like Google Fiber aka something that seems easy and ripe for disruption but has many insanely complex and intertwined subproblems that prevent most new players from actually disrupting it.

</comment><comment><USER85> Postal service in my country is good enough to guarantee next day delivery without Amazon Prime bullshit. Free delivery Amazon, get on it.

<comment><USER86> well if the size of your country fits into most US states that's not a real accomplishment. Reduced land mass and a mature postal system... you would expect that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> Funny, my director at amazon laughed when I presented this idea in 2010, and guess who I see is working on this project via linked in?

</comment><comment><USER88> I think Amazon needs at least 2 real competitors.

</comment><comment><USER89> Do we really need Amazon Everything?

<comment><USER90> > "Amazon has reportedly been working on making its own logistics network a > reality after a disappointing holiday season in 2013 during which countless > packages were delivered late."

From their perspective, seems a bit necessary.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> Maybe they'll learn how to deliver packages in the promised timeframe at some point!

</comment><comment><USER92> And they probably have to.

The quality of delivery services went downhill in the last years. :/

</comment><comment><USER93> This bet depends entirely on Amazon's ability to prevent unionized labor.

</comment><comment><USER94> Won't use it unless it's unionized.

</comment><comment><USER95> Good. Hopefully this will unclog UPS during q4.

</comment><comment><USER96> I'm sure there are a ton of reasons Amazon chose not to build HQ2 in Memphis, TN but I think this was the primary.

</comment><comment><USER97> The Microsoft Zune of delivery?</comment>


NPR Planet Money: Who Invented the Hoverboard? - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=457404184 <comment><USER2> Why on earth are people calling these sideways skateboards "hoverboards"? They have wheels, they don't hover, they are not hoverboards - and it's particularly confusing due to the recent demonstration of an _actual_ hoverboard, which is actually a board that hovers!

</comment><comment><USER3> Is it true there's no accelerometer or gyroscope in it? If so I really don't know how I've been balancing.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is hoverboard the leading candidate for their name?</comment>


Twitter's Evan Williams: A Unified Theory of Startup Success - <AUTHOR> http://evhead.com/2007/08/unified-theory-of-startup-success.asp <comment><USER2> Unfortunately, it is somewhat difficult to develop theories about luck and timing beforehand.

</comment><comment><USER3> And here I had my hopes up... ;)</comment>


This Startup Does Not Exist - <AUTHOR> https://thisstartupdoesnotexist.com/hn <comment><USER2> Interestingly the submission from 35 minutes ago has gained a lot more traction than this one (it would've pointed to the same discussion page hadn't you added the "/hn" to the link):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253829](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253829)

</comment><comment><USER3> Is it my impression or lately there's a boom of generated sites? Like [https://pirolisi.ml/](https://pirolisi.ml/) or Polygen</comment>


Ask HN: Did you regret getting a CS degree? - <AUTHOR> I work with programming, however, I never formally learned it. Sometimes that is a disadvantage when getting a job. Did you who got a CS degree ever regret it, and did you who work in the field without degree regret that? <comment><USER2> I do regret getting a CS degree.

CS came easy to me and so I got a CS degree.

Hindsight I wish I had challenged myself to get a degree in something that didn't come easy.

I dont appreciate my degree and I blow off the fact that I even have one. It means nothing to me.

I have a 14 year old son whom I am pushing to challenge himself and be more well rounded than I was. He is learning C++, yes but he plays basketball, loves MotoGP, learning to cook and overall learning how to talk and argue his points :-)

<comment><USER3> what kind of degree would not come easy if you were able to make a CS degree? IMHO only a few degrees like pure math or physics may be more difficult.

<comment><USER4> There's a distinction between "difficult" and "comes easily". A lot of CS is easy for me, I think in part because the underlying thought patterns are intuitive and in part because I enjoy poking at it on my own. I don't think, say, mechanical engineering is particularly more _difficult_ on an absolute scale, but I personally would have had to work a lot harder and develop better learning skills for a mechanical engineering degree, and I would have learned a lot more in the process. And exposed my brain to something I'll likely never get a chance to expose it to now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Not in the slightest.

I went into the degree having done a lot of programming and found the first year of CS fairly easy. However, I was lucky as Glasgow allows you to switch between degrees almost at will as long as you meet the requirements for it during the first 2 years (1st year courses generally only make up 1/3rd of the credits, and 2nd year courses make up 1/2 of the credits for that year).This meant that I was able to peruse Maths, Physics and CS in my first year, and Electrical Engineering and CS during my second year - it was only in the final 2 years that CS became my only focus.

Essentially, I didn't need to decide which degree I would do until the start of my 3rd year, by which point the course had ramped up to the 4 hours sleep per night level, I was loving every moment of being pushed to the edge, and I was very sure that CS was the right choice for me.

Practically speaking, I came out of the degree having covered a bit of just about everything, and in a position to quickly learn anything that I don't already know. I probably could have become better at programming, but a much less capable thinker if I'd spent the 4 years working.

I don't think that every developers needs a CS degree, however I'd say that if you want to tackle really hard problems, the ones that most people wouldn't even dream of solving, then a CS degree is probably the best tool in your box.

</comment><comment><USER6> With any degree - you get what you put into it. I think it has been extremely valuable in terms of understanding some of the theory/etc. of CS. Then again I am upset that more real-world + theory tools/process were not part of my courses.

For example - understanding source control and working with it is something that SHOULD be happening in classes. Every teacher should leverage git (<https://github.com/edu>) for managing/submission of code.

</comment><comment><USER7> A lot of my CS degree wasn't really applicable to the work I actually do (line of business applications) but it was interesting as hell. I went to classes with a lot of people that hated half of the things we did (physics, math, combinatorics, machine learning, assembly, microprocessor fabrication) but every one of those things was just flat out interesting. Not really applicable, but I don't regret learning it at all.

</comment><comment><USER8> In hindsight, the CS cirriculum I did was pretty bad. There were only three units which I think really had any value for me in terms of application to my work in IT. The units I did outside of CS (mainly maths) were much more valuable.

But there are two things I got from university that were invaluable:

1.) People. The people I met at uni are still my best friends today and a diverse bunch of talented and interesting folk. The social aspect was invaluable.

2.) Learning how to learn. By the end of my second year I felt I had the cognitive and critical thinking skills to tackle new topics without the aid of a professor guiding me. I take this skill somewhat for granted and it has been a critical part of my success in the workplace. Some people are born with this capacity for self-learning, I wasnt, I got it at university. So there is still something to be said about the old brick-and-mortar educational paradigm.

</comment><comment><USER9> I did a Master's degree in CS and have absolutely no regrets. It was, without a doubt, the most enjoyable, interesting, fun and educational period of my life.

In the 20 years since I have, at some point, found almost every subject that was covered useful. Most useful of all, though, was the education in critical thinking, critical systems thinking and soft systems. The lessons I learned there are ones I still use every day. Almost every job in technology involves, in some form, solving complex problems in complex, continually changing environments with many participants with differing interests, motivations and capabilities. This has stood me in good stead from my first job as a developer to my current role managing large programs of work.

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't regret getting a CS degree one bit, since it exposed me to people I wouldn't have been exposed to otherwise. I wouldn't have taken ballroom dancing, buddhist art, or learned how to fly had it not been for getting my degree.

My intuition is that school marginally helped by day-to-day coding, but gave me the tools I needed to dig deeper. It was invaluable to take operating systems, and learn about the nitty gritty internals of how a modern OS worked, along with the details of CPU caching. I probably could have learned the information outside of school, but it would have been a much longer process, and I might have large gaps in my knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER11> I didn't get a CS degree - I did Elec Eng instead, which has some overlap, I suppose - but I haven't found it too much of a problem. I occasionally become aware of gaps in my knowledge, but I find that a bit of reading can usually fix that. I think I'm more motivated and self-directed now than I was back when I was a student, so I'm not sure I really missed too much. Education is wasted on the young!

In any case, once people are more than a few years out of university, they've forgotten enough that it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Experience, receptiveness, and willingness to continue learning become bigger factors.

<comment><USER12> Agree completely. I am in the same position, having an EE degree, and haven't found this to be a drawback so far.

After a few years of work and motivated self-study, a bachelors degree begins to fade into relative insignificance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Nope. I wouldn't have taken many of the classes I took when getting my CS degree if I didn't need to. But, I am glad I took them.

This would mostly be the theory, OS, and compiler courses. If you know the full stack and the connections between them, it makes it much easier to pick up new things. Getting a CS degree let me spend 4 years of my life understanding the fundamentals.

I understand that you can learn all this stuff on your own, but pretty much nobody does. And having all this knowledge makes it substantially easier to learn new things (something I do quite a bit nowadays).

</comment><comment><USER14> If you code all of the time and it's something you enjoy I'm not sure a CS degree is right for you. I was CS and I switched to music because assembly and calculus didn't seem relevant to anything I wanted to build. If you work hard and build projects and put a little effort into learning the CS concepts on your own you will have no problem finding a job. You better be able to code though if you're not going to have that CS line item on your resume. I'm saying you need 5 years experience building things to be qualified most places.

</comment><comment><USER15> Depends on what you want to do, but for me, no. If CS comes easy to you, that just means you can push even further in the time when others are stuck on the basics. If you're only interested in doing social web apps, then maybe you shouldn't get a CS degree. Getting more than an undergraduate degree in CS can make you knowledgeable and confident enough to tackle problems others won't, or be able to see solutions that others can't.

</comment><comment><USER16> I quite regret joining for a CS degree. I am on my second year (I should have been in 3rd, but I chose to take an year of academic break). What CS teaches you, you cannot implement in real world without doing stuff you would be doing without joining the degree.

Best way is to stay passionate about CS and join a degree for some other studies, like business or law, hence bringing out your full potential.

I am, for sure, going to regret taking my CS degree.

</comment><comment><USER17> Not at all. It makes everything SO MUCH easier. Without it there will ALWAYS be a question mark in employers' mind, no matter how many years of experience you have!

Now if you are starting your own company and think you will be the next Zuckerberg/Gates/Jobs, then it's a different story.

</comment><comment><USER18> I kinda regret getting a psychology degree and not getting a CS degree.

</comment><comment><USER19> in the computer field, as of today, a CS degree is not important. the only reason for someone to regret a CS degree is if they had an opportunity to do a startup and they refused, and someone else did that startup and made some serious money.

</comment><comment><USER20> I should have become a physicist.

</comment><comment><USER21> Many people get CS degrees and never get a CS job so they move on with their lives.

</comment><comment><USER22> Are you kidding me? You are the one who needs to regret it since you would never be respected equally amongst your colleagues if all other skills are equal between you and them.

<comment><USER4> Why wouldn't you be respected equally? The point of a degree is that it's a proxy for a statement about skills, not that the prestige of the degree itself is valuable.</comment></comment>


Sample code for creating a 360 video player on Android - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/fbsamples/360-video-player-for-android <comment><USER2> This was much needed. Thanks.</comment>


Finally, Element 117 Is Here - <AUTHOR> http://news.sciencemag.org/2010/04/finally-element-117-here

<comment><USER2> Whats with the sepia/instagram filter on the photo?</comment>


Should What Happens at Applebee's Stay at Applebee's? - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/02/should-what-happens-at-applebees-i-stay-i-at-applebees/272756/

<comment><USER2> Here's a first-person response from the person who posted the receipt and was fired:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/01/fired- ap...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/01/fired-applebees- waitress-needs-tips)</comment>


List of All GNU Software - <AUTHOR> https://www.gnu.org/manual/blurbs.html <comment><USER2> Certainly not all. E.g. mine, which was even a high priority project is missing: LibreDWG. The wiki contains much more.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the heads up! (I assumed it was a collection of all GNU software, since it's on gnu.org)

Gonna have a look at the wiki, thanks! :)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I just posted this here since I was astonished as to how many of the utilities I use on a daily basis were made by the GNU project - I knew about many, but there's things in this list I would've never heard of otherwise.</comment>


Uber finds one allegedly stolen Waymo file on an employee's personal device - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/05/uber-finds-one-allegedly-stolen-waymo-file-on-an-employees-personal-device/ <comment><USER2> Judge Alsup:

"If your guy is involved in criminal activity and has to have criminal lawyers of the caliber of these two gentlemen, who are the best, well, okay they got the best. But it's a problem I can't solve for you. And if you think I'm going to cut you some slack because you're looking at—your guy is looking at jail time, no. They [Waymo] are going to get the benefit of their record. And if you don't deny it—if all you do is come in and say, "We looked for the documents and can't find them," then the conclusion is they got a record that shows Mr. Levandowski took it, and maybe still has it. And he's—he's still working for your company. And maybe that means preliminary injunction time. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not there yet. But I'm telling you, you're looking at a serious problem."

...

"Well, why did he take [them] then?". "He downloaded 14,000 files, he wiped clean the computer, and he took [them] with him. That's the record. He's not denying it. You're not denying it. No one on your side is denying he has the 14,000 files. Maybe you will. But if it's going to be denied, how can he take the 5th Amendment? This is an extraordinary case. In 42 years, I've never seen a record this strong. You are up against it. And you are looking at a preliminary injunction, even if what you tell me is true."

Uber is having a very bad day when a Federal judge starts talking like that. A preliminary injunction looks likely. If Uber can't find anything, this goes against them. Nobody has denied that Levandowski copied the files. Uber paid $600 million for Otto's technology and people. Even if the files didn't make it to Uber's computers, Waymo can probably get a preliminary injunction shutting down much of Uber's self-driving effort. Then Uber gets to argue that their technology is different from Waymo's. It's going to be hard to argue independent invention when all the people are from Google's project.

<comment><USER3> For those who don't recognize the name, this is the same judge that learned some Java for the Oracle v. Google case (and has an undergrad degree in mathematics). Every time I read his name I know it's going to be a fun ride and the lawyers will not be able to get away with anywhere near as much shenanigans as they usually do. Although his ruling regarding API copyright in the Google case was overturned, he has a really strong record of making judgments that stand the test of appeals.

I vote Alsup for Ginsberg's seat.

<comment><USER4> His middle name is Haskell :p

\- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Haskell_Alsup)

<comment><USER5> I was about to comment this. You don't mess around with this highly functional a judge ;-)

<comment><USER6> He wanted to bring purity to the US justice system.

<comment><USER7> I wish his behavior led to some side effects on the justice system.

<comment><USER8> The courts are actually pretty first-class. Take a look at the transcript posted elsewhere in this thread for a reference to the transparency of the system, and how this judge is defending it. Supreme Court cases also make for pretty fun reading sometimes, and there's no denying that judges tend to be extremely smart and conscientious.

<comment><USER9> He's definitely the kind of judge who is able to avoid all kinds of procedural problems which are typically an issue in this type of justice system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and search their own room for drugs.

"Nah, I didn't find anything. I found this plastic bag that looks like it mighta had something in it, but I'm pretty sure my friend left it here and it was empty when he brought it."

"Okay son, go search again."

<comment><USER11> > Offhand, this kind of sounds like a parent asking their teenager to go and > search their own room for drugs.

I have expressed this attitude to corporate lawyers before, and asked them how the system deals with bad actors.

Basically, if a judge catches you lying during discovery, they can issue a default judgement against you and impose very serious additional damages. For example:

[http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/06/09/default-judgment- aff...](http://newenglandinhouse.com/2015/06/09/default-judgment-affirmed- based-on-discovery-violations/)

Furthermore, the lawyers in question can be disbarred:

[https://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/litigationnews/civil...](https://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/litigationnews/civil_procedure/101515-discovery- rules-abuse.html)

A sufficiently annoyed judge has a broad range of sanctions available for punishing people who get caught gaming the system. (Some of these sanctions may take years to fully play out, though.)

<comment><USER12> It's pretty hard to catch if your only search interface is through the liar.

<comment><USER13> Moreover, I've seen 'mistakes' and intentionally 'last minute' delivery of documents myself at trials, along with what essentially amounts to blatant filibustering. It was considered 'part of the game'. No one was punished.

<comment><USER14> I've seen many cases thrown out of court for this.

<comment><USER15> That's great if you're the defendant...

<comment><USER14> It's good for everyone that the police can't skirt around the rules of discovery and present 'last minute evidence' that denies peoples' right to a free trial, yes.

<comment><USER16> The context here is civil cases (I think the GP means "respondent" rather than "defendant"?)

<comment><USER17> Respondent is the term for the party advocating against overturning a previous ruling during an appeal. Defendant is correct in this case because this is not an appeal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It is surprising that Google did not push the court to appoint a third party discovery firm to handle the device imaging process and to provide a report to the court.

Maybe both parties' intense desire for privacy in this matter has driven Google to this strategy.

The seeming ludicrousness of the result - Alsup's "go try again, harder this time" \- is not caused by this case's parties playing badly. It is caused by poorly defined and understood laws surrounding what constitutes a defensible search. Data handling in this stage of legal proceedings is imperfect, and can be manipulated by both parties to drive up the cost of litigation, or to strategically avoid disclosing the key breadcrumb documentation that would otherwise have led to the smoking gun(s).

Edit: Please find the court reporter transcript here: [http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo- Uber-3-...](http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo- Uber-3-29-17.html#text/p3)

Judge Alsup's comments are fairly aggressive in comparison to most commercial litigation, but the no-nonsense tone is par for the course.

<comment><USER19> I'm really surprised at how the search is going too (by the article). "Go find these documents." "Didn't find them." "Okay go again." "Okay." Now if you're an employee that has any of those documents and you weren't searched the first time, there's no way you'll be caught with the documents by the time the second search starts.

<comment><USER20> My reading is that it's not the results being judged, but the process of the search. Given the high confidence that seems to be assigned to the claim that 14,000 documents were downloaded, "we asked our employees to give us what they have, and this is all we got" isn't good enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This judge is mighty impressive, and since it's so much in fashion these days to be suspicious of institutions, I want to highlight this passage:

THE COURT: If you all keep insisting on redacting so much information, like -- and you're the guilty one on that, Mr. Verhoeven -- then arbitration looks better and better. Because I'm not going to put up with it. If we're going to be in a public proceeding, 99 percent of what -- 90 percent, anyway, has got to be public. [..]

THE COURT: The best thing -- if we were -- one of the factors that you ought to be considering is maybe you should -- if you want all this stuff to be so secret, you should be in arbitration. You shouldn't be trying to do this in court and constantly telling them not to, or you putting in -- the public has a right to see what we do. [..] And I feel that so strongly. I am not -- the U.S. District Court is not a wholly owned subsidiary of Quinn Emanuel or Morrison & Foerster or these two big companies. We belong to the public. And if this continues, then several things are going to happen. One, we're going to call a halt to the whole -- we're going to stop everything. And we're going to have document-by-document hearings in this room,

<comment><USER21> So from what I understand, Google is litigating this in public, but their lawyers, such as Mr. Verhoeven, are redacting everything on their side they don't want public. This makes it sound like Google is doing this in public mainly to hurt Uber as much as possible in the court of public opinion. Am I wrong in interpreting Google's actions this way?

Sounds like this and many other conflicts Google had with Mr. Lewandowsky over the years should have been dealt with in arbitration. This just looks like Google acting out a vendetta against Mr. Lewandowsky. They tolerated his actions when he worked for them and even after he left to work for himself, but turned against him once he joined a competitor.

While on paper, it doesn't appear that Mr. Lewandowsky is a saint, Google doesn't look good here either. Google's behavior here should give any engineer pause about considering Google as a place to work. California doesn't allow non-compete agreements, and this looks like Google attempting to achieve the effects of a non-compete through litigation. "If we can't hire and keep Mr. Lewandowsky, then we'll make sure our competitors can't either."

<comment><USER22> A vendetta against Mr. Levandowski? Google paid him _$120 million_ , and he then took that same technology for another multi hundred million dollar payday from Uber. Mr. Levandowski's avarice is basically something I can't really comprehend.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> '"To the extent Uber tries to excuse its noncompliance on the grounds that Mr. Levandowski has invoked the Fifth Amendment and refused to provide Uber with documents or assistance, Waymo notes that Mr. Levandowski remains — to this day — an Uber executive and in charge of its self-driving car program. Uber has ratified Mr. Levandowski's behavior and is liable for it," Waymo attorney Charles K. Verhoeven wrote in a letter to the court (emphasis his).'

Ouch.

<comment><USER24> No, that's a completely non-substantiative quote from an attorney for one side that contains the implicit assumption that Uber really does have the documents and is actively committing crimes in discovery to prevent the discovery from working. Not only is it not an unbiased source, it's basically a source being paid to be biased. Which is fine; I am generally down with the philosophy of adversarial justice. But you shouldn't read much of anything at all into that quote.

For those of us on the outside, while we are justified in considering that a possible hypothesis, we are also justified in looking at the facts and considering that it may indeed be the case that these documents were never given to Uber. I for one have no trouble believing that the documents were downloaded by an individual but that they were never given to Uber, as I rather suspect "keeping more than one really ought from one's previous job but never raising to the level of actually giving that stuff to one's next employer" is really quite common.

<comment><USER25> > No, that's a completely non-substantiative quote from an attorney for one > side that _contains the implicit assumption that Uber really does have the > documents_

Implicit assumption? The first paragraph of the TechCrunch article says:

      Uber admitted today that it had found one of the documents Waymo alleges was stolen by a former employee — who left its self-driving car effort to join Uber's — on the employee's personal computer.

<comment><USER26> Until the facts of the case come out, don't fall into the dangerous dark hole of fully buying into either story.

The other day I booted my old galaxy s3 to put a new ROM on it and turn it into a dashcam. I found on it that google drive had offline backed-up some documents from a company I had worked at several years ago, and no longer did. Should I be sued for trade secret theft?

<comment><USER27> I don't find this to be the same. What you did could be defended easily by saying it was an accident and you behavior would have been nonmalicious. You didn't purposely back up some old files, start a new company with the same exact tech from those said files then sell the new company 2 months later for a cool 680mill. If you did that then yes your old employ would definitely have a case against you. If your story is as described they company would lose.

<comment><USER26> All of the first part of the things you said is a part of the accusation.

>Waymo says he took 14,000 documents, while Kshirsagar and Radu Raduta took only a few. Waymo is now asking for Uber to turn over those stolen documents as part of the discovery process

My understanding is that part of the case is deciding if it is true that 14,000 documents were taken.

So again, the only known _truth_ is that a single document was found on a guy's device.

What I am concerned with is that we all fall into the "Uber BAD, Waymo GOOD" trap simply because Waymo is kicking up a big shitstorm. Let the process of law happen, let the facts of the case arise, before we pass judgement.

<comment><USER8> The taking of 14,000 documents is actually assumed to be true currently for the purposes of this case. That's because Uber is in no position to deny it, only Lewandowsky could. And he can't deny it, because then he could no longer invoke his right to remain silent.

Of course, the documentation from Waymo/Google is also pretty strong apparently. Simply saying "I didn't do that" would be insufficient.

<comment><USER26> > Uber is in no position to deny it, only Lewandowsky could. And he can't deny > it, because then he could no longer invoke his right to remain silent.

So he should give up his 5th amendment right to fend off an accusation? I don't think so, that doesn't sound like justice to me.

>documentation from Waymo/Google is also pretty strong apparently.

 _pretty_

 _apparently_

Come on man, you know what angle I'll go for here. Why are you letting that slip? The documentation aka _evidence_ hasn't been seen yet because this case hasn't gone to court. _None of the most relevant facts of the case have come to light_.

I'm happy to hop on the "Uber is evil" train _after_ the case, but it is painful to watch the normally quite rational people on HN fall for such a typical fallacy of justice.

<comment><USER28> >> Uber is in no position to deny it, only Lewandowsky could. And he can't deny it, because then he could no longer invoke his right to remain silent.

> So he should give up his 5th amendment right to fend off an accusation? I > don't think so, that doesn't sound like justice to me.

That's how the 5th amendment works. It gives you the right to avoid self- incrimination, but if you invoke that right and there is other evidence against you then you'd better have some other way of refuting that evidence.

<comment><USER21> Has this other evidence even been presented yet?

edit: given that even a simple question was downvoted, I can only conclude that there are likely a lot of Google employees downvoting anything that doesn't support Google's side in this dispute.

<comment><USER8> I downvoted you because–considering your strong opinions–it seems unlikely that this is a question asked in good faith. And even if, it is answered both in the article, as well as pretty much implied in the headline.

GOOG-ACCOUNTING-REF:3FX/ASTRO/15/TURFWAR/PROJECTSOROS

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Interesting statement here from the judge and Uber's attorney (Gonzalez). Gonzalez worked for Alsup at some point in their careers.

Judge Alsup: Look. I want you to know I respect both sides here. And everyone knows I know Mr. González from the days when he was a young associate and I was a partner, and he was working for me on cases. And he has gone on to be a much better lawyer than I ever was. But you shouldn't have asked for in camera on this. This could have all been done in the open. I'm sorry that Mr. Levandowski has got his -- got himself in a fix. That's what happens, I guess, when you download 14,000 documents and take them, if he did. But I don't hear anybody denying that.

[https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784/Waymo- Ube...](https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784/Waymo- Uber-3-29-17.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER30> I just realized how stark the prisoners dilemma here between Uber and Levandowski is. Based on what Alsup was saying today that if Uber can't produce counter-evidence by May 3rd, they are staring down the barrel of a preliminary injunction, they're damned if they fire him and damned if they don't.

1\. Levandowski remains at Uber. Keeps asserting his fifth amendment rights, which means that Uber can't present evidence to thwart Googles theft claims. Judge files a preliminary injunction, sad trombone, no self-driving cars for Uber.

2\. Uber fires Levandowski. Now, he has no reason to protect Uber, the incentives for him are to avoid criminal prosecution. He could even do a deal with Google or a prosecutor to cooperate in the civil case in exchange for avoiding criminal prosecution. Uber is then likely to lose the _actual_ case, sad trombone, no self driving cars for Uber.

As others have pointed out, the stakes for Uber are incredibly high, they missed the china train and if they can't catch the self-driving-car train, then their $50+ billion valuation is up in smoke.

Man I wish I could be shorting Uber right now.

</comment><comment><USER31> "Judge William Alsup, who is presiding over the case, ordered Uber to search more thoroughly for the documents."

Judge Alsup always winds up with the most interesting cases :-)

<comment><USER32> Ohh, didn't realize this is the same judge who taught himself Java ([https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-schmidt-page- damages/](https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-schmidt-page-damages/))

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> This story is fascinating for tech people everywhere and we should all pay attention.

We all have big dreams of starting our own company some day (I know do) and many of us work for big corporations that would rather we never go anywhere and work for as little as possible. (admittedly the markets are forcing them to pay us a lot but they aren't doing it out of good will).

The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons. I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company.

<comment><USER34> _> The outcome of this will teach us all very valuable lessons._

Lesson #1: Don't steal.

 _> I can't be the only one who is a little paranoid that if I start my own shit I'll be sued or that I may even be sued for some of the side projects I'm working on even though I've never taken any code or resources from my company._

Lesson #2: If someone accuses you of theft, _deny it_ instead of pleading the fifth.

Assuming their accusations aren't truthful, of course.

<comment><USER35> Your Lesson #2 is wrong. If someone accuses you of theft _listen to your lawyer_ , whether you are innocent or guilty.

<comment><USER34> And if your lawyer tells you to plead the fifth and clam up, don't be surprised when your business receives an injunction.

I'm not a lawyer, but Alsup is, and he states as much in an abundantly clear tongue lashing of Uber's lawyers:

[http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo- Uber-3-...](http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3533784-Waymo- Uber-3-29-17.html#text/p3)

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Of course you should talk to lawyers first, just as Levandowski did.

But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without hurting yourself.

<comment><USER36> > But at some point, if you're truly innocent, I'm sure the best lawyers in > the business could find a way for you to say "I'm not guilty" without > hurting yourself.

In a perfect world, being actually innocent would mean zero risk of conviction of a crime with a vigorous and dedicated defense, no matter what the prosecution did.

We don't live in a perfect world, and it is, in fact, quite possible for a situation to exist where you are actually innocent and on-balance have better expected results by invoking the Fifth.

Even accepting potential negative consequences that may have outside of the criminal realm.

<comment><USER34> I agree in principle and understand your point.

But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP theft" without compromising their client.

At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that "not guilty" plea.

<comment><USER36> > But I have a hard time imagining a specific scenario where you're accused of > IP theft and a lawyer can't find a way to say "my client is not guilty of IP > theft" without compromising their client.

Okay, how about where they actually physically have the documents that are the subject of the case, cooperating with discovery would reveal them, but they didn't actually use them in the new job or take them with intent, even though the other people accused alongside did actually steal smaller numbers of documents, and use them in the new job without your clients knowledge, so that your only real hope besides gambling on a jury's inferences of intent is that a criminal case is never initiated because your clients possession of the information doesn't come to light.

> At the very least, at some point, the client is going to have to enter that > "not guilty" plea.

A plea is non-testimonial, does not open up cross examination, and does not open up threat of perjury. And, no, they don't have to do that if criminal charges are never filed, which is exactly what you are hoping for if you are invoking the Fifth in other circumstances because of potential _future_ criminal prosecution.

<comment><USER34> My assumption is that intentionally copying IP onto a personal device and removing that device from the office -- regardless of any actual intent to use that data -- is still theft. Which would make the former employer's claims truthful.

It's super unclear to me how you would _accidentally_ retain a copy digital documents...?

Like I said, it's hard to imagine this scenario actually happening. But for good measure:

Lesson #3: Leave work at work and startup at home.

<comment><USER37> I actually did something like this long ago (pre-2000) - emailed a set of detailed and very confidential sales spreadsheets to my personal email. It wasn't "theft" (and AFAIK nobody even noticed). It was so I could convert the spreadsheets to a proper Access database on my own time, since that's not what I was paid to do but it made my job a lot easier.

I would probably have been in a world of shit if anything came of it, though.

<comment><USER34> I've worked for employers who were 100% convinced this is theft, even without some intent to use that information, and even discussed very similar hypotehticals in on boarding.

<comment><USER37> Right, that's why I mentioned how long ago this was because very few employers were as Orwellian about this stuff as they are today. Calling it theft was hyperbole then and is hyperbole today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> A lot of people seem confused by the idea that a party can request personal documents someone else has.

Just like in criminal land, civil land has subpoenas. Parties can issue subpoenas for most things to other parties. In federal court, civil subpoenas are covered by Federal Rules of Civil Procedure rule 45.

[https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_45](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/rule_45)

Outside of the exceptions listed, yes, you would be required to produce information you have.

<comment><USER39> I think also in this case it's a matter of Uber telling its employees, "hey, if you have any of this stuff on your personal laptops, you'd better give it to us" (with the perhaps-implicit "or we might fire you" on the end of it). Two of the employees are playing ball, but Levandowski has clammed up (and Uber, to the judge's amusement, is allowing him to do that without repercussions).

<comment><USER38> Uber firing you may not be the worst of it. You can end up in jail for contempt until you comply: "The rule is also amended to clarify that contempt sanctions may be applied to a person who disobeys a subpoena-related order, as well as one who fails entirely to obey a subpoena. In civil litigation, it would be rare for a court to use contempt sanctions without first ordering compliance with a subpoena, and the order might not require all the compliance sought by the subpoena. Often contempt proceedings will be initiated by an order to show cause, and an order to comply or be held in contempt may modify the subpoena's command. Disobedience of such an order may be treated as contempt"

Obviously, can't hold you in contempt (or at least, can't punish you) if you validly took the 5th, but ...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> This resolved to the Judge ordering a deeper search:

"[The Judge] told Uber to search using 15 terms provided by Waymo, first on the employees' computers that had already been searched, then on 10 employees' computers selected by Waymo, and then on all other servers and devices connected to employees who work on Uber's LiDAR system."

Seems interesting that there's not a more comprehensive system or way to search for these since Google is clearly in possession of the specific documents they claim are stolen.

The way they're continuing the Judge's order to look for "15 terms" almost makes it seem like the extent of the original search was tied to file name or document titles or something?

<comment><USER41> They are probably very specific search terms that are repeated in the documents and might be unique enough to show up in any documents created by someone plagiarizing the Waymo docs. The fact that 31,000 other documents also contain these phrases but are "not substantive" makes it seem like the search terms are somewhat generic but definitely appear in the Waymo docs. Uber might have ruled out all of those other docs by just looking at the dates the docs were last modified. If they are older than when Levandowski or any of the other people previously employed by Waymo joined Uber, then they can probably be vetted as original IP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> As a former grokoholic, I must say all this heavy-duty legal drama makes me miss Groklaw and pj.

<comment><USER43> Thanks NSA!

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Are there any opensource autonomous/driverless car projects with substantial momentum. This seems like something so foundational to the next 50 to 100 years that it needs to be 'owned' by everyone.

<comment><USER45> To be completely honest, it seems like this is going to be so tightly tied to hardware that it won't matter _that_ much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I assume "14000 documents" is one repo checkout.

</comment><comment><USER42> It seems to me that even if Uber proves that Levandowski never downloaded the files to Otto, much less Uber, they still are in deep trouble unless they can prove that he never laundered the information in them through his brain to help Otto or Uber develop their technology.

</comment><comment><USER47> I don't really get how the orders to search for documents on employee-owned devices are possibly enforceable. What stops employees with incriminating data from just throwing their devices in a river before they can be searched?

</comment><comment><USER48> 1 file is too many files.

</comment><comment><USER49> How would Uber find files on some employees personal device?

<comment><USER50> It's a good question, since the article also says that the employee is refusing to cooperate on 5th amendment grounds (which is likely smart).

<comment><USER51> It's a different employee. The article doesn't mention whether or not Kshirsagar has invoked the 5th amendment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> I get the feeling 2017 is going to be a very entertaining (from a news perspective) year for tech.

<comment><USER53> I've been kicking around the idea of Popcorn as a Service.

<comment><USER52> I would like to invest in this idea. Food delivery is hot, and we need to disrupt the entertainment industry!

<comment><USER54> You just write the app that matches popcorn providers with popcorn buyers in their area and charge a 2x markup - 5x during popcorn surges!

<comment><USER55> Nah, the real money is being a MaaS provider. (Marketplace as a Service). Why try to strike gold when you can just get rich selling the gold-rushers some picks and shovels? It shouldn't be much more than an API and some customizable matching algorithms (e.g. proximity or pricepoint or keywords and maybe a scheduler or two).

I'm only half-joking in that I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is a thing already.

<comment><USER56> Nah, too niche. Why try to strike it rich selling picks and shovels to gold- rushers when you can get richer doing logistics for those pick-and-shovel merchants? MaaSaaS is where it's at.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> It seems like Uber has to prove a negative here - because Google has evidence Levandowski took the files they need to show they don't have theM? Or that the files weren't involved in their self driving IP? Not sure how they're supposed to do that.

<comment><USER58> You come up with a discovery plan that both parties can agree with (or one that's imposed by the court). You figure out the scope of the search (which DBs, hard drives, phones, etc.), the search terms to run, etc. You do depositions of employees to figure out who and where else potentially relevant documents can be. Obviously you can't prove a negative, but you end up doing an exhaustive search.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> What Google really wants is to prove that Uber is using the technology in the product it is developing. So the question is how Google will go about trying to prove that, and what Uber would need to do to prove it is not.

<comment><USER59> The case will proceed to expert witnesses in time. The 14,000 documents seem to be Uber's smallest problem in this case.

<comment><USER36> Yeah, I think it's quite likely that the patent charges, for which _how_ Uber/Otto got to the designs is immaterial (except in terms of enhanced penalties for willfulness, which Levandowski's knowledge, with or without the documents, may be enough for), may be the real killer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I'm curious how Uber (a private company) got access to someone's personal laptop. If my employer demanded access to my personal machine I'd tell them to pound sand.

<comment><USER61> Someone else in this thread links to sources but it looks like in civil cases things can be subponead in a similar way to the criminal system.

Edit: Found it, [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14046529](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14046529)

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Aren't you supposed to settle criminal cases before civil ones? Is the guy formally indicted?

If they just did the criminal trial first, he couldn't claim 5th protections, right?

<comment><USER63> DOJ doesn't always go after trade secret cases, especially if there is adequate civil remedies. But even when they do, they often let the civil plaintiff do the heavy lifting and then come in with a criminal charge using the information obtained by the plaintiff.

Google probably can't wait until a long criminal trial happens.

Civil discovery is easier than criminal investigations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> i have a very very bad feeling that one day in a distance future employer will be demand your sign over anything that come from your head over to them before they will offer you job.

</comment><comment><USER65> It is like finding one cockroach in the kitchen.

</comment><comment><USER66> What is the background story for this article?

<comment><USER67> [https://danielcompton.net/2017/03/14/uber- bombshell](https://danielcompton.net/2017/03/14/uber-bombshell)

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> How is Uber inspecting employees' personal devices?

</comment><comment><USER69> The whole court transcript is well worth a read. Fortunately, no legalese.

</comment><comment><USER70> > highly functional a judge

Best joke I read today.

<comment><USER9> Downvotes? Looks like there's some kind of scheme against this thread.

<comment><USER71> I think the logic used to go "Don't comment if you don't have anything to add to the discussion". So people downvote comments that should have just been upvotes in the first place.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> and the file was... stdio.h. Damn !

</comment><comment><USER73> Uber is basically pleading the fifth. Hahahahaha

</comment><comment> 08-15 Why did Waymo sue Uber? They should have sued Levandowski---he copied (no, he didn't steal!) the files in question, after all.

<comment><USER42> They are suing Uber because they claim it is using the technology in their product. Since Uber bought Levandowski's company, it is morally equivalent to Uber having hired Levandowsky to spy on Google.</comment></comment>


UFC Fight Pass (a paid service) is using your PC to mine cryptocurrency - <AUTHOR> https://np.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/7b4zdk/fight_pass_is_shady_ysk_ufc_fight_pass_is_using/dpf96js/ <comment><USER2> Imagine if you will that I do freelance work for a client. In addition to the CRM system that they paid for, I also put a little mining module in there that mines with otherwise idle CPUs.

My question is, would I simply be sued by the client, or do the Feds get involved with some kind of "hacking"/"unauthorized use" charge? If not the latter, how egregious does it need to be before da FBI comes a'knockin'?

Point is, if _I_ put unauthorized code on a machine I don't own, _I_ go to jail.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, you are going to jail.

CFAA would definitely classify this as unauthorized access or exceeding the access to which you were authorized and for personal gain. The client would try to sue you for theft and breach of contract, but they would be in line behind the government for what remains of your personal savings and retirement money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wonder if this might not be a viable revenue model for "premium" services. IE: service is "free", but we're gonna use your CPU cycles for our own benefit.

<comment><USER5> I honestly think this could be a great alternative to ad-funding once the economics improve enough to start making it more feasible.

As long as browsers had a way to distinguish crypto-mining usage from regular site functionality and is able to throttle it separately when the site opt- into the appropriate APIs, and in other cases detect suspicious levels of sustained CPU activity, perform site-specific throttling and warn users about it.

I'd much rather support content creation on the web using processing power than with my privacy and limited attention span.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've seen coinhive scripts running on a few sketchy sites including tpb, but to see it on a billion dollar enterprise e.g. UFC is pretty surprising. It's not ethical at all considering running a cpu mining script which might cost the user $1 in electricity might net the controller maybe a penny of that in crypto.

</comment><comment><USER7> The ESEA client (counter strike anti cheat / server integration) did something similar, recently. The community was super unhappy.

<comment><USER8> That was a "rouge employee" back in 2013, if I'm not mistaken. Nothing like that recently.</comment></comment>


How to answer the question, What do you do? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/01/17/how-to-answer-the-question-what-do-you-do/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BrazenCareerist+%28Brazen+Careerist+-+by+Penelope+Trunk%29 <comment><USER2> I usually answer this question with a redirect into what I'm currently really interested in. It leaves most people a little disoriented but the conversation flows on and I don't have to explain everything in detail.</comment>


Ask HN: New Flash 0day? (flash-0day-vitaly1) - <AUTHOR>

Can anyone make sense of this?
https://twitter.com/ioerror/status/618039409682841600 <comment><USER2> Purportedly, these are 0days from the HackingTeam dump that happened last night. See the previous discussion [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836336](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836336) and associated files [https://github.com/hackedteam](https://github.com/hackedteam)</comment>