Sequoia gives photo-sharing startup more money than they gave Google - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/03/23/color-looks-to-reinvent-social-interaction-with-its-mobile-photo-app-and-41-million-in-funding/ <comment><USER2> I just tried out the iPhone app and I'm pretty disappointed.

Color seems like one of those ideas that would be pretty rad if 1 million people already used it. Because no one has the app yet, if you fire it up it's totally blank. You take a picture of yourself, post it, then the rest of the UI is whitespace. There's nothing to look at or do. It's possibly the worst first-run user experience I've ever seen.

I wonder if the Color engineers were always using the app together and always seeing each other's photos. If that's the case the UI was always full of stuff to look at, and they probably demoed it to journalists like this as well. Did they ever actually see the app as an empty slate like everyone will see it the first time they use it? My guess is: no.

<comment><USER3> I personally think they just solved a huge problem. Oh wait..what problem were they solving again?

<comment><USER4> This product reminds me of cue-cat, in the sense that it fails to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Title doesn't do it justice. The photo-sharing part isn't what's novel. They seem to be building a social graph automatically weighted on physical proximity+frequency, using smartphone sensors (the most important one of which happens to be a camera). That's cool, and potentially game-changing.

"All of your contacts are presented in a list of thumbnails ordered by how strong your connection is to that user. Whenever Color detects that you're physically near another user (in other words, that you're hanging out), your bond on the app gets a little stronger. So when you fire up the app and jump to your list of contacts, you'll probably see your close friends and family members listed first. But if you don't see a friend for a long time, they'll gradually flow down the list, and eventually their photos will fade from color to black-and-white.

...If you fired up Color in that restaurant example from earlier, you'd only be able to see photos that had been taken by friends and strangers within 100 feet of that restaurant. That is, unless you jump to your social connections. Tap on your best friend's profile photo, and you'll then be able to see all of the photos that have recently been taken within 100 feet of them. In other words, Color is trying to give you a way to see everything that's going on around you, and everything that's going on around the people you care about."

"Color is also making use of every phone sensor it can access. The application was demoed to me in the basement of Color's office — where there was no cell signal or GPS reception. But the app still managed to work normally, automatically placing the people who were sitting around me in the same group. It does this using a variety of tricks: it uses the camera to check for lighting conditions, and even uses the phone's microphone to 'listen' to the ambient surroundings. If two phones are capturing similar audio, then they're probably close to each other."

<comment><USER6> Yeah, based on what they said they have some much more ambitious plans than just photo swapping. Unfortunately (but unsurprisingly) they were vague about what those plans entail — they made some references to heavy data crunching, but I couldn't really get a straight answer as to exactly what they were crunching or what it would be used for.

<comment><USER7> Knowing Sequoia, I'm guessing it will automatically trade exotic derivatives by using ambient lighting data to make better weather predictions.

<comment><USER8> I'm thinking getting in bed with the government is not out of the realm of possibility.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's mobile, it's social, and it's local! They managed to hit all the buzzwords in one startup!

<comment><USER10> I'm a little concerned that it isn't viral and/or paradigm-shifting.

<comment><USER9> It probably is viral and paradigm-shifting too, based on the description. It really is the perfect startup - hits _every_ buzzword, founder with a previous exit, all-star team, etc.

Too bad startups aren't checklists to tick off.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> 'Say you walk into a restaurant with twenty people in it. You sit down at a table with four friends, and start chatting. Then one of your friends pulls out their phone, fires up Color, and takes a snapshot of you and your buddies.

That photo is now public to anyone within around 100 feet of the place it was taken. So if anyone else in the restaurant fires up Color, they'll see the photograph listed in a stream alongside other photos that have recently been taken in the vicinity.'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when it comes to photo sharing, aren't the people in your immediate vicinity at the time you take a photo the people who are going to be the least interested in getting that photo shared to them?

<comment><USER12> Not really. Let's say you walk in a club at 1AM, you get to see what the party was like before you. Also clubs are usually concentrated in the same area, so you may also see what happening in the other establishments.

<comment><USER13> Do you really care at 1AM what the party in a club was an hour or two ago?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14>
      "But how exactly is Color going to make "wheelbarrows of
      cash"... the company is still very early on, but it
      eventually plans to offer businesses a self-serve platform
      for running deals and ads

$41 Million for a photo sharing app and this is the best they came up with? You gotta be kidding me.

<comment><USER15> Here is some tinfoil for you...

Assuming they have a back-door API - this could be a freaking BOON for intelligence gathering arms that are seeking to know the surrounds of anti establishment types.

Further - wait until you apply spatial modeling capabilities (what was that MS tech demo called?) where you can start building 3d navigable models of spaces that all the data collected in that 100' radius allows.

Dont think the military is doing CRAZY things with optical intel:

"The system can also be used for general night vision; it can follow bats five miles away in darkness."

<http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/02/72632>

the military now has autonomous robotic helicopters that can visually track bullets in flight.

<http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/02/gigapixel-flyin/>

Now they just need the general public to be a part of the larger sensor intel fabric.

<comment><USER10> [http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-facebook-program- dramatic...](http://www.theonion.com/video/cias-facebook-program-dramatically- cut-agencys-cos,19753/)

<comment><USER15> Cool but take a look at the links that I posted which are years old. The fact is that there are amazing technologies employed in certain military and defense research projects that when coupled with todays consumer internet applications have unbelievable capabilities... As a former employee of Lockheed - I can assure you I am not the only person who believes this...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The underlying technology sounds like it was inspired by The Dark Knight - sensors in cell phones streaming data back to a central server where it can all be processed together into a cohesive view of what's going on in the world.

The photo-sharing aspect just sounds like a hook to get consumers to actually put it on their phones. I'd imagine that the bigger play is trying understanding where people go, who they go there with, when they go, all of that. Facebook has the data to reconstruct that information after the fact, when people come home and upload their pictures, but this looks like an attempt to see it unfold in real time.

Advertisers are already getting used to having this kind of information on the web, with tracking cookies, twitter, and real-time ad auctions giving them immediate, constant feedback from and control over people's online experience. The company that figures out how to get a similar datastream out of and targeted advertisements into meatspace is going to make mad money; if these guys have a legitimate shot at doing it, $41M probably isn't so crazy.

On the other hand, just downloaded the app, and the first cut is kind of crap.

</comment><comment><USER17> Disclaimer: Three of us are building a pet project that has some similarities with Color. One big difference - all user generated content is private by default.

That out of the way, we are certainly envious about the 100-200 million dollar evaluation they got on day one. With about 4k spent so far, in our case and with three of us chipping in any extra time we have (me - any extra time I have outside of lurking here), we are still a couple of months away from a MVP that will make us cringe ever so slightly when we see how far we will have to go. Till then, no real sleep, and a lot of heartburn. Still, its good to see Color validating some of what we do, but in the end, we both will have to prove there is a market. We however can afford to fail early and not give any VC's any heartburn, just our own families.

One thing is for sure, we do not plan to build sonar capabilities. We dont have the knowhow and I am not sure that will be the make or break for us anyway.

We also dont have the same pedigree, and therefore its clear that VC's will not be snapping at our heels (But we go back six years, all three of us). We are ok with that, but heck..41 million is a lot of money.

As the weeks peel away, I hope to share here on HN where we stand with the product and hopefully even line up some kind souls here who will be willing to beta test for us in return for some good karma. We cant afford to pay (please refer back to the 4k burn total).

We however have some ideas on how we plan on monetizing. We plan on finding out as early as we can, whether our ideas coincide with real needs from local businesses.

Right now, I am shamelessly stopping people on the street, as they veer away, ignore, stare, and sometimes stop and tell me what they need and what they want. I do this as behind the scenes we toil away on building something that in the end we can be proud of.

In all fairness, right now, they have a far more capable app, employing 9 times our current strength and vastly more capital and brain power. In the end, may the best viable product and company win.

<comment><USER18> Would love to chat, sounds like what we are doing with Pixamid.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> A couple of things stick out from this numbers wise:

* 7 founders (~14% split evenly, unlikely though)

* 41M raised

* Staff of 27 (obviously get some equity)

Some valuation math:

(Dilution) Pre-Money Post-Money (Founder dilution from ~14.28%)

      15% 232.3M 273.3M  12.1%

      20% 164M   205M    11.4%

      25% 123M   164M    10.7%

      30% 95.6M  136.6M  9.99%

      40% 61.5M  102.5M  8.57%

      50% 41M    82M     7.14%

I realize the percentages are essentially a wild guess, but I feel its a good data point to add in.

<comment><USER20> sometimes its just not about the money.

<comment><USER21> Of course it's nice to have someone do the work for you and present it like this. You know, just in case it _is_ about the money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Hey Color dudes, if you're here - presumably those photos are being stored on a server, can I browse a timeline of photos taken in my area? Like if I'm in some place on a Saturday and want to see what it was like last Saturday, or what it's like on a Friday night?

Think of a bar conversation, or a restaurant or something "It's quiet now but check it out on a Friday night! It goes mental!".

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm curious how a proximity-based social network is going to keep from placing me closer to my upstairs neighbor than, say, my brother on the other coast.

<comment><USER24> I'm curious as to why Facebook won't just add a "photos your friends have taken around this place" feature and make these guys a distant memory

<comment><USER25> I think from Color's perspective, that's the idea -- only figuring that "adding" implies an acquisition.

Actually, I guess it would depend on whether market validation is worth $10m -- which I doubt, because it's just a feature to them, not a whole product. Also, that's what interns are for, right?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Creepiest part- "it uses the camera to check for lighting conditions, and even uses the phone's microphone to 'listen' to the ambient surroundings."

The auto-social network based on proximity is awesome, though. I can't wait for this and the creep factor will be gone in five years anyway since we are all moving to a more open society.

<comment> brown9-2 What in the world does a picture app need to use my mic for?

<comment><USER27> There have been some research projects which can use snapshots of the lighting and sound around you to tell which building you are located in with 90% accuracy. I.E. they can tell you are in the Starbucks and not the hardware store next door. See "SurroundSense: Mobile Phone Localization via Ambience Fingerprinting" in the proceedings of Mobicom 2009.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> $1m for product, $3m for marketing, $37m for curation of a constant stream of chatroullette-esque pornographic images?

<comment><USER29> This is a good point. If I'm sitting in a very densely populated area the odds that some couple within 100' are exhibitionists must be pretty high.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> >Nguyen has visions of fundamentally changing some aspects of social interaction and local discovery with the app, which he considers part of the so-called Post-PC movement.

webvan anybody?

</comment><comment><USER31> Sounds technologically impressive, I'm just wondering if a dynamic friend list is really an advantage over a static list. The last thing I want to be doing when hanging out with friends is to be on my mobile phone checking out what they've posted to Color. I'd rather, you know, interact with them in real life. Maybe I missed a vital point of it, though.

<comment><USER10> The best part about a dynamic friend list: instead of friend requesting a cute girl on Facebook, you need to take lots of photos of her and be near her location all the time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm gonna just go ahead and say this, does anyone else think this is a bit silly? $41m.

There's no getting away from the fact this is just an app that shows you photos taken near you, by strangers.

I just don't get it. I might be wrong, in 12 months I might be kicking myself, I just cant imagine it.

<comment><USER32> Absolutely, but that is what makes the speculating fun. You have to ask, what possible story could you spin around what they have that justifies $41M pre- revenue. Even assuming a healthy multiple of 20, and investor exit of $250M you're talking about projected earning of $12.5M with a gross margin of say 60% that's like $21M/yr in revenue. And I'm assuming an ABC round (which is to say the would expect to not do another round prior to some liquidity 'event').

But they clearly have a good story and their investors are happy. So silly or not, its the path they've chosen. It reminded me of this blog posting I ran across:

[http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/02/50-questions-why-too- much-...](http://www.gamesbrief.com/2011/02/50-questions-why-too-much-money- will-kill-your-company/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I don't care what it does, $41 million at pre-launch for a mobile app is ridiculous.

I sure believe they've hired a staff of 29 very talented people. But even if you give each of them a salary of more than 1 million dollars it would still take a year to burn that money.

</comment><comment><USER34> If you're trying to evaluate based on how useful it is, how cool, potential income etc you're missing the point.

The goal is to flip this to the next sucker. A cool domain name, a celeb team, an app that's bound to attract media hype (look for "The Color.com Revolution" coming from Tehran University in 2012) - a year or two from now, provided the bubble doesn't burst, Sequoia can unload this on Google or Facebook and make a tidy profit.

</comment><comment><USER35> Any "there isn't a bubble" believers want to comment on this one...?

<comment><USER36> I've previously been in the camp that there isn't a bubble. This seems like its a valuation of 1 or 2 hundred million for a company that hasn't launched yet. It's very hard to see how this deal could make sense in a traditional way.

Don't get me wrong I think this sounds like an excellent idea that could turn out to be an excellent company. It's just such a large amount of money to raise that it kind of raises the question of what game the VCs and/or founders are really playing.

It seems like at this point there might be a possibility of VCs planning on Facebook and Twitter going public and either being acquired at an inflated price with all that new capitalization or going public themselves in the wake.

<comment><USER37> The thing that always gets me is that my local movie theatre is playing terrible unoriginal flicks shot for a budget higher than that.

<comment><USER38> At least they have a solid business plan (sell tickets, DVD/BluRay and PPV, TV rights, etc). Color doesn't even accept revenue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> 41 million??? No part of me believed there was another bubble. About-face!

I'm considering building a clone on android and GPLing it. Who's in?

</comment><comment><USER40> The article makes it seem as if Color hasn't launched yet but it actually has (presumably today). I downloaded it and am pretty stunned at how confusing of a UI $41 million can buy you.

<comment><USER41> Parts of it are downright broken: the swipe-to-delete makes the "delete" button appear in a very awkward position.

I'll level with a lot of their choices for being "different", but they've gone too far in some instances. It feels very un-iOS. Maybe because it's cross- platform?

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Yes, it's mind boggling, but Sequoia has a problem: they have way too much money under management. So when they find one idea they like, they invest like crazy to push it to the extreme. Add senior VPs to the executive staff because it will help go from a $100M company to a $1B company. That costs a lot of money.

Likelihood of success? Low, but that's ok as long as it works once every 10 years.

</comment><comment><USER43> the Tyler Durden in me wonders how they are going to stop people broadcasting cock shots to every person within 150 feet

</comment><comment><USER44> Proximity based advertising is cheaper and more efficient to smaller and local businesses.

I've been working on something similar... $41M sure would be nice! For a group of proven talent I can understand the investment, but $41M is pretty crazy.

</comment><comment><USER45> Was anybody able to find the android app? They don't link directly to it and searching for "color" is too generic. Which, btw, is a problem with their name.

<comment><USER46> Even on the iPhone, you can't find the app searching for "color". I followed the link from color.com

<comment><USER47> Problem with such a cool yet common domain is that you do not get shown at the top unless you already are big.

Also how does it feel: " I am using color" vs "I am using Colors"?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm using this right now and I still really don't get it. As far as I can tell, this does the exact opposite of a social app: instead of bringing together people with similar interests or relationships (like Instagram, for all its faults), it exposes me to people who I have nothing in common with except happening to be in the same neighborhood. I mean, am I right? Can that possibly be the point? There is a 'group' composed of myself and three other people I've never met, all of whom presumably live or work nearby—and then another 'group' that's not apparently any different, except I haven't joined it yet. I'll admit that some of my confusion is due to the completely opaque interface.

EDIT: Ok, RTFA seems to indicate that these groups are fluid and intended to form themselves according to whom you hang out with most often, so presumably if I keep taking pictures then it will figure out who my friends are. That's a neat idea, but unfortunately still moves against my instagram-a-like point above: if we should have learned one thing about how people make friends in the year 2011, it's that physical proximity doesn't really enter in to it.

</comment><comment><USER48> Is anybody else actually able to use the app? I got past the "take a picture of yourself", but now I just see blank white screens everywhere.

<comment><USER2> Same happened here. It's totally blank until more people around you actually have & use the app. Which no one will do because... it's blank unless other people use it. Classic chicken or the egg problem. I guess $41 million doesn't buy you an answer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Ok, correct me if I am totally mark on this one but here are my takeaways:

1) The idea of creating groups on the fly to take photographs from a shared location is what got the funding.

But using a tighter geofencing (remember how in Gowalla one had to stand at a point to check in) the same can be brought in Instagram which _already_ has a million or so members.

2)The photo is public for anyone in the vicinity of 100 feet or perhaps everybody (sorry for missing that) but one does realise that it limits my ability to share things with the world. I mean only in case when something is cool would I want to share it with the world and other times stop short of making myself look not so cool.

3) Local+Social+Mobile is great on paper but these are not the dimensions that make a great app. It is the underlying mechanics. For a $41 million investment and a overpriced domain name, they sure did not blow my mind off.

4) As far as the white noise of social apps is concerned it was the same problem with all apps, facebook included if you were in the party early! Can't hang them for that.

5)For the latent interest in finding photos around an area or location, there always are foursquare/gowalla (sitting on huge data) and instagram with the tags lately (remember #sxsw ?). You really think one would use them?

5) I remember Chris Dizon lately writing about investing in people over ideas and it looks like with 7 rockstar cofounders, thatis what happened here. But hey, who said anything about turning a blind eye to the idea?

6) Last, people around me wanting to see photos around them :) can just turn around or shoot foursquare to find a lot more info over a longer period of time than using the app, right?

Of course I am saying this all since I am a hater for seeing them receive such a huge funding for no apparent (to me) reason!

</comment><comment><USER49> Is it April 1 already?

</comment><comment><USER31> I wonder how much color.com cost?

<comment><USER50> "Bill recently acquired the domain color.com for $350K" according to Steve Thommes in the TC comments.

<comment><USER24> i might see if I can get colorapp.com for £3.50

<comment><USER51> Why don't you buy colorapp.com then Geoff

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Isn't 7 founders a little excessive?

</comment><comment><USER52> Well, at least they have enough money to market it down people's throats. They're going to need every single dollar they can get to eventually get some of those Facebook users to want to use this thing.

</comment><comment><USER53> I can totally see people using this like Craiglist's missed connections...

</comment><comment><USER18> Since our tiny 4 person startup built a photo sharing app with very similar core ideas, I was scared shitless this morning on first reading about Color.

That passed. Wrote it all up on the blog, but here is what I think they have wrong and our Pixamid has right:

Privacy: I think most people want to more privacy on their photos, not less. If the camera can sense who you are with (like Pixamid and Color try), by default, share ONLY with those people. By default, Pixamid shares with only your friends at he same place as you - you can choose to share with everyone there too.

Network Effects: Color™ might be cool in a world where everyone uses Color™. But we don't see such a world anytime soon. People will use lots of different apps: Instagram, Facebook, Flickr, Twitter, Picasa -hell, even Ofoto (thanks Mom). We want to pull in your friends' photos from any of these services, automatically as much as possible. See our post below about the Instagram magic we do; we're dong a lot more of this cool stuff now.

Addressing a real problem: We are all taking more photos with our great phone cameras. But we hate to organize our photos. And if we add in Friend photos, it is even worse. Users of Pixamid get automagical photo organization as a byproduct of using the app. Each set of photos, with place, event, and who you were with. The things we will do with this in the future - can't wait to show everyone! But we believe that our solution will revolutionize how people share photos online.

[http://blog.pixamid.com/post/4060807527/the-color-tm- challen...](http://blog.pixamid.com/post/4060807527/the-color-tm-challenge)

</comment><comment><USER54> I just tried using this app and it crashes every time I try to take a pic on a fully updated iPhone 4, after a fresh restart. I'm not sure what they're doing with that $41 million (besides buying trademarks and unoriginal domain names), but there are some really talented people doing much more with much less. I'm sure they'll fix it, but seriously guys...

The idea is interesting, but not defensible enough for them to stop a couple of hackers with $15k from besting it.

</comment><comment><USER41> I can see how people would find this valuable, but what does the company need all that money for?

Do they just have a mean, scalable roadmap that we are unaware of?

</comment><comment><USER55> The link to the Android Market does not go to the app page. With a name like 'Color', it's almost impossible finding it in the market.

<comment><USER17> Try "Paradigm shifting" as a search keyword.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> I just fired it up on a couple devices, and it's not very intuitive. It's a great idea, they just need some UX help now.

</comment><comment><USER24> "Simultaneously use multiple iPhones and Androids to capture photos, videos, and conversations into a group album. There's no attaching, uploading, or friending to do. "

It seems like all Facebook need to do is add a "Merge Albums" feature for use between friends.

And I've come to the conclusion they're just after FB stock via acquisition. Fair plan.

</comment><comment><USER57> So the idea here is that it will let me see more and be more in touch with... the people who I already see and am in touch with? I'd rather do the exact opposite - it's my friends in other states who I want digital tools to keep me more in touch with.

</comment><comment><USER58> (This is offtopic, and probably best put in a AskHN thread, but) Why no love for BlackBerry?

</comment><comment><USER59> This is a great idea I think. It has the potential to fundamentaly change the way people use photos, and because of the all media exposure they will get (41M..) it might actually work. The only thing that's sad is that about 6 month ago I met a guy who had been trying to raise money for his idea, which was very very similar, and all the big funds turned him down. So there's again the repeting lesson of the value of who you are when you raise an idea and money. Hope it'll work anyway - sometimes it's nice to know that your idea was really good even if you're not the one who made it in the end.

</comment><comment><USER60> <http://color.com/s/njo9KY>

<comment><USER61> meagan's a hotty.

<comment><USER61> why the downvote? this is not just some random comment that has nothing to do with the article; i was merely making a social comment via performance art about how easy it is to stalk with this tool. meagan's picture can be found at the 8AM mark, she's an attractive woman and what caught my initial reaction.

as an aside, there should be full disclosure and responsibility for all hackernews users, who down voted me?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> This is an app built by engineers in the valley for engineers in the valley. This "bubble" project is truly a bubble. You need to step outside your own experience and understand if your products are viable to others who aren't you. Walk around anywhere that's not SF or NY and this app will be useless for at least the first year. And who can can make sense of this UI other than an engineer? Engineering breakthrough? Yes. Useful mobile tool? No.

</comment><comment><USER63> "... and even uses the phone's microphone to 'listen' to the ambient surroundings ..."

Yeah, I definitely want an app that is listening to what I say all of the time. Great idea.

The automatic Social Graph based on proximity is a good idea. But doesn't it make you best friends with all of your neightbors (at home and work) and other random people you just happen to walk by or meet every day?

And why would I want to see pics of a restaurant that some friend sits in?

</comment><comment><USER64> <http://www.color.com/>

I am not sure why the article did not have the link for the application.

edit - never mind they updated the article.

</comment><comment><USER65> Sounds interesting, but shouldn't they have a huge user base before this kind of money comes in? There are a lot of interesting things going on in this space (and with this app), but minus user base and revenue, I just can't help but wonder if this kind of funding is an example of the bubble that we may well be in. Kudos to them if I'm wrong and they're actually able to mint cash from this app.

</comment><comment><USER66> > That photo is now public to anyone within around 100 feet of the place it > was taken. So if anyone else in the restaurant fires up Color, they'll see > the photograph listed in a stream alongside other photos that have recently > been taken in the vicinity.

How does that algorithm work? Is that like a point-in-a-polygon problem? It could be lots of updates as to who is near what, etc. I just don't know.

</comment><comment><USER67> Poor title on the part of TC, but I think it is important to remember that when Sequoia invested in Google, everybody thought search was dead, tech had just taken a bath, and the founders were an unknown.

This group is at the very popular intersection of photo-sharing, social network, real-time, local/location and I'm sure more. They have a rock-star proven team, and tech is a popular investment now.

</comment><comment><USER68> All embrace big brother!

<comment><USER68> sharing pictures all around you, tagging your location, listening to the ambient sounds around it, centralized server.... anyone else see this as a serious privacy fail.... I'm still going try it out, but just saying.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> What about the spammers or weirdos sending their images to an unsuspecting crowd. I will be wary of seeing photos shared by unknown people in a public and crowded place like Times Square. And what about children using this app? Can they watch all uncensored, unfiltered images any stranger wants to share?

</comment><comment><USER70> So, I wonder how long until someone is going to use this to create a real-time location based hot or not?:P

</comment><comment><USER71> Just played with it. I was intrigued by the sign-up process - it only asked for my first name and photo. Is it doing something magical to tie my'account' to my name and photo? Or is the user name a much 'looser' association and not something you have a strong hold over?

</comment><comment><USER72> What has YC (and every other prominent investor) been emphasizing lately? That the team is the most important part of the deal. And that team looks rock solid, arguably more so (on paper) than google did in 1999.

<comment><USER17> True. But does that alone deserve a 100 million dollar evaluation? I dont know enough tech luminaries who can constitute a team that can command such a high price tag, on launch day none the less. What do I know? My own wife wouldnt put down $100 on me to win :)

<comment><USER47> _My own wife_ is a funny term. Redundancy at it's maximum.

<comment><USER47> Why the downvote?

It is redundant and I just dropped a note of English usage. If one has to emphasis, it would be "Even my wife...".

Just like saying Round circle or Straight line!

Or is the point of commenting only when you add hacking info?

<comment><USER73> There's nothing wrong with "my own wife". (A Google Books search quickly turns up "my own wife", "my own child", "my own father", and "my own mother" in Dickens, for instance.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> So you take pictures of others at their free time and publish them without consent to the world and call it social? I call it paparazzi. Isn't paparazzi one of the most admired and respected profession? :-)

</comment><comment><USER75> It's pretty difficult to search for this on the iPhone App. Store, I went through pages and pages on a search for 'color' before going to color.com and clicking the link. Will most people do this though?

</comment><comment><USER76> Let's say I'm having great time with my girlfriend, other friends and their girlfriends, etc. in a restaurant. Why would I wan to share our photos with the creepy guys next table?

</comment><comment><USER77> Very cool and a bit creepy at the same time. I'm thinking about Hitchcock's Rear Window. I'm able to see what my office building neighbors are doing (I think...).

</comment><comment><USER78> Looks like they spent most of the money on the domain name. Color.com is now live..

</comment><comment><USER79> Finance fail?

If you discount the investment to 1999 value, it's under what Sequoia gave Google.

</comment><comment><USER80> that much money sounds ridiculous, but there's definitely something very cool about proximity-based social networks and these guys now have the time and cash to find the right application.

</comment><comment><USER81> "And what I'm interested in is investing in people." -Arthur Rock

</comment><comment><USER82> $41M to spend in what?

</comment><comment><USER83> With all this excessive photo-sharing going on, I think we'll soon find ourselves wanting to counter the adage "A picture is worth a thousand words" with its opposite.</comment>


Germany nixes surveillance pact with US, Britain - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/germany-nixes-surveillance-pact-us-britain-113557159.html <comment><USER2> Just symbolic politics, as our Foreign Minister himself stated:

"He said the move was largely symbolic since the agreement had not been invoked since the end of the Cold War[...]"

So, as there are upcoming elections, I believe, that they try to appear doing something at least/at all, while not p __ing off the Americans, or the Brits.

<comment><USER3> Wars have been started (and ended) by symbolic acts.

Symbolic does not equate meaningless.

This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

In 20 years time, we may look back at this symbolic gesture as being the first act in Germany finally ridding itself of the remains of US occupation.

<comment><USER4> >This is the loudest "fuck you" Germany has given the US in half a century.

Perhaps.

>In 20 years time, we may look back at this symbolic gesture as being the first act in Germany finally ridding itself of the remains of US occupation.

Germany's demand for inspection of its gold and subsequent demand for repatriation of German gold from the Fed was not a small thing.

<comment><USER5> Did actually anything come out of that? Any results?

<comment><USER4> IIRC, A German court issued an order to the Bundesbank that Germany's gold bullion (including those held in foreign vaults) be audited. The access granted to the German auditors by they FRBNY wasn't satisfactory to the German authorities, and as a result the Germans decided to begin repatriation of a large portion of their gold (~300 tonnes, I think). A deal was struck to return the gold in batches over the next 7 years. I don't think there has been any conclusive proof of shady things, but of course there is a lot of speculation regarding the motives and facts surrounding the issue.

Some links in case you're curious:

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/debate-breaks- ou...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/debate-breaks-out-in- germany-over-foreign-gold-reserves-a-833289.html)

[http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/rechnungshof- forde...](http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/rechnungshof-fordert- bundesbank-zur-inventur-der-goldreserven-auf-a-862719.html)

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german- politicia...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-politicians- demand-to-see-gold-in-us-federal-reserve-a-864068.html)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/9804444/Bundesbank- to-pull-gold-from-New-York-and-Paris-in-watershed-moment.html)

<comment><USER6> The question is why 7 years? After all, the amount of gold to be returned is not that much!

""In two months, we've brought 160 tons of gold valued at around $9 billion back to Venezuela," [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/venezuela- receives-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/venezuela-receives- last-shipment-of-repatriated-gold-bars-1-.html)

For anybody reading this, research gold leasing by bullion banks. In essence it's fractional reserve banking... and the issue is if nations demand their gold back, what if it's not there?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Alternative link: [http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/germany-nixes- sur...](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/germany-nixes-surveillance- pact-us-britain-19848935)

<comment> guard-of-terra Thank you because parent link always landed me at [http://hosted.ap.org/specials/bluepage.html](http://hosted.ap.org/specials/bluepage.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> TL;DR

 _A German official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the cancellation would have no practical consequences.

He said the move was largely symbolic since the agreement had not been invoked since the end of the Cold War and would have no impact on current intelligence cooperation between Germany and its NATO allies._

</comment><comment> brown9-2 Almost every other paragraph in this article diminishes the strong-sounding headline

 _British Foreign Office brushed off the significance of the German move. "It's a loose end from a previous era which is right to tie up," the Foreign Office said in a statement, noting that the agreement had not been used since 1990._

</comment><comment><USER8> If I read it correctly Germany canceled the contract from 1968 that allows US and UK intelligence to ask German intelligence about data collected with by the G10 law.

But the contract from 3. August 1959, that allows the US, US and France to collect as much data as they want, is still valid, and likely would only end with a peace treaty and end of German occupation.

<comment><USER9> The occupation ended with the General Treaty of 1955 (which still included some restrictions), and the regime of restrictions under the General Treaty ended with the Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany and German reunification in 1991.

<comment><USER8> If you read 2+4 contract closely, then you realize that Germany is still a divided country, e.g. when it comes to US atomic missiles, and that 2+4 is not a peace treaty, nor does it end German occupation.

It was very difficult to find a news that tells what contract was canceled today. The basically canceled, if I'm right:

[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Beschr%C3%A4nkung_de...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_Beschr%C3%A4nkung_des_Brief-,_Post- _und_Fernmeldegeheimnisses#.C3.9Cbermittlung_von_BND- Erkenntnissen_an_andere_Staaten)

So this cancel wont PRISM and the like, US gathering of intelligence is still legal in Germany.

<comment><USER9> > If you read 2+4 contract closely, then you realize that Germany is still a > divided country, e.g. when it comes to US atomic missiles, and that 2+4 is > not a peace treaty, nor does it end German occupation.

Treaties, _by their nature_ , limit the parties in ways which they would not, as soveriegn states, be limited in the absence of the treaty. The fact that there are limits on what Germany can do (and what other parties can do in Germany) under the Final Settlement treaty does not make it any less a "peace treaty" than it would otherwise be. And it emphatically did end the occupation of (East) Germany (the occupation of West Germany was ended by General Treaty.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It loads some weird page which proceeds to _This page is a 403, forbidden page_.

</comment><comment><USER11> Meh, this is simply a symbolic move to win the election. Our govt cares jack shit that everything is monitored by foreign powers.</comment>


The Case for Open Source - <AUTHOR> https://blog.prototypr.io/the-case-for-open-source-4e0ac9767967#.minna8x8l <comment><USER2> I still don't get how developers in closed source ecosystems work. If i don't understand why/how something works i just check the code and figure it out, this is usually the most efficient way (for me) for doing stuff as supposed to. If i notice something is broken, i fix it. And if i don't like how something works, i can easily fork or just monkey patch it.

I can't help but think of proprietary language coders as chaotic coders that start crying when something undocumented happens.</comment>


Ask HN: A modern-looking UML diagram tool? - <AUTHOR> Hi HN,<p>I've been going back to UML to try to tame some of my design/notes for my projects. Is there something that generates some more modern looking UML diagrams out there? <comment><USER2> I use PlantUML[1] for my UML diagrams.

      - It uses a human readable text-based file format renderable via the PlantUML jar. Friendly to CLI and git.
      - The diagrams are stylable, should you wish to style them.
      - There's a PlantUML Integration IntelliJ plugin that's easy to use for preview/rendering[2]
      - Overall simple to use, but I imagine it can as robust as you want it to be. For example, the IntelliJ plugin Sketch.it automatically generates PlantUML diagrams from Java source code[3], and the source code for how it works is available on BitBucket if you want to know how it works[4]

I've seen other people suggest Mermaid.JS[5] before, but I haven't used it so I can't say how it is.

      [1]: http://plantuml.com
      [2]: https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/7017-plantuml-integration/
      [3]: https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/10387-sketch-it-
      [4]: https://bitbucket.org/pmesmeur/sketch.it/src/develop/
      [5]: https://mermaidjs.github.io

<comment><USER3> If you're going to monospace lists (why?) please format them to remove the horizontal scroll bar.

 _Edited_ to remove example that still produces scroll bar on non-maximized windows (and mobile).

<comment> 0-_-0 Haha I'm on mobile, so you'd need to do 4 words per line

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I also use Draw.io and recommend it highly. It's web-based, so it's also cross platform.

However, Lucidcharts has a better UI in that I can build diagrams after in LC than Draw.io. [https://www.lucidchart.com/pages/](https://www.lucidchart.com/pages/)

LC is paid if you need more than 1 chart (who doesn't?). But Draw.io is free. LC is also web-based and is cross-platform.

I've heard OmniGraffle is also excellent (never used it myself) but it only works on OSX/iOS: [https://www.omnigroup.com/omnigraffle/](https://www.omnigroup.com/omnigraffle/)

<comment><USER5> OmniGraffle is freaking amazing. If you're on a mac then RUN (don't walk) to grab a copy and try it out.

it's also SO much more than just UML. I have found SO many uses for it.

<comment><USER6> > OmniGraffle is freaking amazing.

On the whole I like OmniGraffle, but I _hate_ the curves that it draws. If I use it to make a diagram, I have to spend so much time making the curved lines between shapes not look like shit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I enjoy using Mermaid: [https://mermaidjs.github.io](https://mermaidjs.github.io)

It does not support all the diagrams yet, but it's completely themable and you can code away your diagrams like you would with dot/graphviz.

It integrates well into any Markdown tool, Gitlab integrated it about a year ago so it's natively available in Gitlab flavored Markdow.

<comment><USER8> Any comparisons of Mermaid vs other tools? Why do you like Mermaid?

I use Plantuml myself and I find that I regularly have to fight with the layout engine to get diagrams to looks the way I want them too.

<comment><USER9> Mermaid is a bit nicer than PlantUML in that it isn't a Java blob that spits out PNGs. Easier to integrate into web things. Also the default style is much nicer.

But I think PlantUML is more capable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Honestly just change the default styling in PlantUML[1]. The default styling turns a lot of people off, which is a shame because it's a fantastic tool. Even the monochromatic skin is much easier on the eye. The real benefit to PlantUML is the ability to commit the source code for your diagrams alongside your actual source code.

[1]: [http://plantuml.com/skinparam](http://plantuml.com/skinparam)

<comment><USER11> A great example (and sort of a framework) of taking that way beyond is [https://github.com/RicardoNiepel/C4-PlantUML](https://github.com/RicardoNiepel/C4-PlantUML)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> For all sorts of diagrams, this software is awesome: _yEd_

[https://www.yworks.com/products/yed](https://www.yworks.com/products/yed)

Favorite feature: automatically reorganize the chart according to your preferences/constraints (e.g. fewer line intersections, hub-spoke, hierarchical, etc)

<comment><USER13> yEd isn't exactly modern-looking though. I've recently used it on Ubuntu 16.04 but my colleague on Ubuntu 18.04 couldn't because the menu or window handles were cut off. As IntelliJ shows, using Java/Swing is no excuse for an app to look like a Windows 3.1 app migrated over to Windows95. But then UML is from a time and mindset when win32-like and Java-like OOP and Hungary notation were sold to people and I guess a certain amount of retro design must feel authentic to UML.

<comment><USER14> (Disclaimer: yWorks employee and developer here)

We do have a more modern web-based graph editor: [https://www.yworks.com/yed- live/](https://www.yworks.com/yed-live/) It may lack features you need, as the idea was a less cluttered and more modern UI, not to bring over everything and the kitchen sink.

As far as yEd Desktop goes, Java becomes an increasingly unattractive platform for desktop development, with Swing showing varying degrees of brokenness on different platforms and Java releases. The new hotness right now seems to be to either get working printing or working High-DPI support, but not both in the same Java release.

It's due for a minor UI overhaul, though, and this may come in the future. We probably cannot and won't completely restructure yEd's UI (such things also serve well to piss off long-time users).

<comment><USER13> If Java becomes increasingly unattractive, what are you eying as replacement? I won't defend Java/Swing, but at least it does HiDPI (in contrast to eg. JavaFX and RCP last I checked, even though printing is broken w/ HiDPI as you said). There aren't that many alternatives for cross-platform desktop apps (qtk comes to mind, but it's a rather big departure from Java I guess).

<comment><USER14> For us the most attractive option would probably be to wrap yEd Live in Electron. We're not a large team and rewriting yEd with something else is a major undertaking (especially for a tool given away for free). That makes it hard to justify development costs.

Personally, I'm still hoping for Microsoft to see the need for a good cross- platform managed-code UI toolkit. Perhaps they're open to funding or adopting Avalonia. But perhaps that's just me being open to rewriting an aging Java application in C# ;-)

<comment><USER13> Interesting. Btw I have an old half-finished Java Swing diagramming (not UML) app lying around waiting to see the light of the day in ... this millenium hopefully ;) Electron is surprisingly good-behaving and I get that it's of course attractive to develop mostly a web app that can _also_ be deployed as desktop app, but isn't entirely without problems (for one, it isn't accepted in the App Store as it is). Things always look brighter on the other side of the fence, but throwing away your whole Java code base is kindof gross. Maybe we Java old schoolers could push JetBrains to open their Swing refactorings (of which I suppose there must be many) or sell their renovated Swing + Addons as a rich desktop appdev product. It's only in their best interest for Swing to have a future. And as IntelliJ shows, Swing isn't half bad a GUI toolkit in the hands of competent developers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> For prettiness, Visio or OmniGraffle.

For shareable web editing, LucidChart or Draw.io.

For quick easy text markup, PlantUML or Mermaid.

I have not found any UML tool that's pretty, shareable, round-trippable, and has easy text markup.

Demo of PlantUML: [https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/demo_plantuml](https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/demo_plantuml).

<comment><USER16> Can you elaborate "round-trippable"?

<comment><USER17> Not OP, but I'd say that it is in a text-ish format that can be fed into a generator that can turn the document into code. Some of these UML editors spit out a PNG, which is pretty but useless for code generation or automated use of the information.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> You should really ask yourself why you're drawing UML diagrams at all.

 _You know, there are lots of people selling snake-oil, drawing boxes and arrows that make you feel good, but ultimately have no real meaning. If something is really meaningful you should be able to express it in mathematics._ \- Leslie Lamport

... via [https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup](https://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup)

If you need to visualize, take more precise states as a basis and take a look at graphviz[0]. If you need to model multi-agent systems, use mscgen[1] to draw Message Sequence Charts.

[0] [https://graphviz.org/](https://graphviz.org/)

[1] [http://www.mcternan.me.uk/mscgen/](http://www.mcternan.me.uk/mscgen/)

<comment><USER19> I'll second graphviz, aside from it's standalone strengths it integrates well with doxygen and the two combined make for some great documentation.

I use it for sequence charts as well by using sublabels (not sure what they're really called), usually I don't care so much about the sequence but where the choke points in this giant pile of steaming enterprise are:

      SomeObject[label="<someMethod1> someMethod1 | <someMethod2> someMethod2"];
      Foo -> SomeObject:someMethod2;

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I have used UMLet since 2005. The diagrams won't win a beauty contest, but they are quick to edit and depict the necessary information. [https://www.umlet.com/](https://www.umlet.com/)

From the UMLet web page:

> UMLet is a free, open-source UML tool with a simple user interface: draw UML > diagrams fast, build sequence and activity diagrams from plain text, export > diagrams to eps, pdf, jpg, svg, and clipboard, share diagrams using Eclipse, > and create new, custom UML elements. UMLet runs stand-alone or as Eclipse > plug-in on Windows, OS X and Linux.

UMLetino runs UMLet in a web browser. Refer to the UMLet FAQ and sample diagrams for help. [http://www.umletino.com/umletino.html](http://www.umletino.com/umletino.html)

</comment><comment><USER21> I used successfully [https://www.draw.io/](https://www.draw.io/) for my graduation paper's UML schemes and other additional explanatory graphics. Give it a try.

<comment><USER22> It's actually a good one, I'd recommend too

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Depending on what you be are diagramming you might want to use the C4 Model ( [https://c4model.com/](https://c4model.com/)) which often results in easier to understand diagrams. There is a PlantUML add on for it too: [https://github.com/RicardoNiepel/C4-PlantUML](https://github.com/RicardoNiepel/C4-PlantUML)

Also draw.io templates and a set of Visio templates ( [https://github.com/pihalve/c4model-visio- stencil](https://github.com/pihalve/c4model-visio-stencil) ) that can be imported into Lucidcharts as well. There is also some web based tools (see bottom of C4 website).

</comment><comment><USER24> [https://monodraw.helftone.com/](https://monodraw.helftone.com/) for MacOSX is great

<comment><USER25> I mostly use it to draw small diagrams for code comments if it makes things clearer but it's one of these small little macOS app gems.

A very small niche and well done as a beautiful native Mac app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> There's quite a few. Obviously Visio is popular, on Linux I've used a tool called "Dia" ([http://dia-installer.de/](http://dia-installer.de/)) there are several others, but these are my 2 go to tools for UML.

</comment><comment><USER27> You might also like www.breakdown-notes.com. It is not as focused on diagrams as draw.io (and others), but is rather nice if you want to make something inbetween notes and diagrams. (so I say as the owner of breakdown-notes).

<comment><USER28> [http://www.breakdown-notes.com](http://www.breakdown-notes.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> It would help this discussion if people made a distinction between software that creates diagrams from version-controlled code (e.g. PlantUML, MermaidJS), and software that just creates diagrams.

</comment><comment><USER30> Have you seen Kumu? [https://kumu.io](https://kumu.io)

It doesn't support standard UML diagrams but between sketch mode [1] [2] and icons [3] you may be pleasantly surprised. I personally use it to map out Kumu's own internal application structure and flows.

 _Full disclosure: I am the lead developer and cofounder of Kumu._

[1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX3kbCyOamQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX3kbCyOamQ) (Gene Bellinger's intro to Kumu's sketch mode)

[2]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFOz67co0yA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFOz67co0yA) (Benjamin Mosior sketching wardley maps in Kumu)

[3]: [https://docs.kumu.io/guides/icons.html](https://docs.kumu.io/guides/icons.html) (Kumu docs on Font Awesome support)

<comment><USER30> If enough people are interested I'm happy to do a webinar specifically for the HN crowd and do a deep dive on the technicals. Built on top of CouchDB and pretty neat stack overall.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> nomnoml: A tool for drawing sassy UML diagrams based on syntax. Provides instant feedback and has a customizable styling.

web: [http://www.nomnoml.com/](http://www.nomnoml.com/)

js: [https://github.com/skanaar/nomnoml](https://github.com/skanaar/nomnoml)

r: [https://github.com/javierluraschi/nomnoml](https://github.com/javierluraschi/nomnoml)

<comment><USER5> Thanks, Visually nomnoml is pretty sweet. That being said, syntax-wise the class diagrams from Mermaid seem way easier to read.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Specifically for sequence diagrams:

[https://sequencediagram.org/](https://sequencediagram.org/)

</comment><comment><USER32> Whimsical might be helpful, though you can't do the special UML arrows on there.

[https://whimsical.com/](https://whimsical.com/)

</comment><comment><USER33> Here is a link to a few UML diagramming tool, check them out, might find the one you are looking for.

UML Diagramming Software for Windows: [https://www.ilovefreesoftware.com/29/featured/free-uml- desig...](https://www.ilovefreesoftware.com/29/featured/free-uml-design- software-windows-10.html)

Online UML Digaramming Tools: [https://www.ilovefreesoftware.com/22/webware/free- websites-t...](https://www.ilovefreesoftware.com/22/webware/free-websites-to- create-uml-online.html)

</comment><comment><USER34> Well, [http://plantuml.com/en/](http://plantuml.com/en/) is, imo, the most efficient and maintenable way to produce UML diagram

</comment><comment><USER35> I use lucidchart for most diagramming. There's a free clone, draw.io, which is also pretty good if you need more objects but don't want to pay out for an account on lucidchart.

</comment><comment><USER36> PowerPoint , I often use animations to explain complex diagrams.

<comment><USER37> I second this. I have used PowerPoint for some very complex architectural diagrams and transitions over time and it has been a great tool. Definitely not perfect, but is pretty fun to use most of the time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> The best free tool I've used is Draw.io[1], can create diagrams online or offline and has nice integrations with things like OwnCloud.

If you don't mind paying for something and want something that looks great visually, I would recommend Lucid Chart [2]

[1]: [https://draw.io](https://draw.io)

[2]: [https://www.lucidchart.com](https://www.lucidchart.com)

</comment><comment><USER39> Check out blockdiag tools, [http://blockdiag.com/en/](http://blockdiag.com/en/)

</comment><comment><USER40> For windows 10 you have the WhiteStarUML[1], but is not updated since March/2018\. You can get and idea of the interface and check if the UML fits your definition of "modern looking".

[1] [https://sourceforge.net/projects/whitestaruml/](https://sourceforge.net/projects/whitestaruml/)

</comment><comment><USER41> StarUML is good although its built on Electron

</comment><comment><USER42> I came across a recent blog post[1], that mentioned some text-to-diagram tools, out of which I liked Gleek.io and nomnoml in particular.

[1] [https://avdi.codes/tools-for-turning-descriptions-into- diagr...](https://avdi.codes/tools-for-turning-descriptions-into-diagrams/)

</comment><comment><USER43> You could use GoJS to make one: [https://gojs.net/latest/index.html](https://gojs.net/latest/index.html)

(I make GoJS, a diagramming library, but it presumes nothing about "looks", which can be modified arbitrarily)

</comment><comment><USER44> I used visual paradigm few years back. It was really good. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Paradigm](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Paradigm)

</comment><comment><USER45> Sometimes PlantUML for rather simple diagrams.

For more advanced diagrams I use Enterprise Architect ([https://www.sparxsystems.eu/](https://www.sparxsystems.eu/)).

</comment><comment><USER46> What language do you use?

And what for do you need UML (and what type diagrams)?

For example, IDEA products for Java has some tools for class diagrams

MS visio is nice too as tool for just painting UML

But main problem with UML - synchronization with code base

</comment><comment><USER47> I really wish to find some tool to replace Enterprise Architect that runs, unfortunately, only in Windows. For me is really important traceability, starting from the requirements.

</comment><comment><USER48> Monodraw[0] is great for diagrams and general note taking.

[0] [https://monodraw.helftone.com/](https://monodraw.helftone.com/)

</comment><comment><USER49> i just use inkscape

<comment><USER50> I do too, it's quite easy to produce diagrams that look better than any modern diagram too. And things look exactly as you want.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Draw.io got completely open sourced a few days back, so now there's no stopping you for adding any features you want either.

</comment><comment><USER52> [http://staruml.io/](http://staruml.io/)

</comment><comment><USER53> hi there,

      draw.io is a free tool both available online at https://www.draw.io/ or you can download a desktop version from https://github.com/jgraph/drawio-desktop/releases. Quite fast and good.

</comment><comment><USER54> I use [https://yuml.me](https://yuml.me)

</comment><comment><USER55> i've being using [https://online.visual-paradigm.com/](https://online.visual- paradigm.com/) for a while now, and am quite happy with it.

</comment><comment><USER56> Check out Visual Paradigm, they come now with a Web UI too

</comment><comment><USER57> You can create diagram from plain text [https://ivanceras.github.io/svgbob- editor/](https://ivanceras.github.io/svgbob-editor/)

</comment><comment><USER58> I use Google drawings extensively

</comment><comment><USER59> Software Ideas Modeler works nice

</comment><comment><USER60> graphviz can be modern looking, you just have to select some styling on your diagram

</comment><comment><USER61> Figma

</comment><comment><USER62> yEd with custom palettes, anyone?</comment>


Software Giant Autodesk to Axe 13% of Global Workforce - <AUTHOR> http://www.animationmagazine.net/people/software-giant-autodesk-to-axe-13-of-global-workforce/ <comment><USER2> The 2016 layoffs of similar magnitude didn't seem to make a noticeable impact in their software's update cadence. They are a company formed though an old sediment of mergers and acquisitions and I'm not surprised they've built up inefficiencies.

<comment><USER3> Do you realize that calling people inefficiencies sounds rather cold?

<comment><USER4> Saying objectively that 12 people are doing the work of 8 isn't making any value judgment on the 4 people who get let go.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Much of the layoffs tend to happen in North America and Europe and the hiring is in China I understand at Autodesk. I do not have numbers to back that up though, but it is my understanding.

<comment><USER6> As part of this restructuring they are closing the European HQ in Neuchâtel, Switzerland, that's ~230 jobs. [1]

We have our offices next door and I feel sorry for them.

[1] [https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/software- shock_autodes...](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/software- shock_autodesk-to-shut-neuch%C3%A2tel-offices/43716966)

<comment><USER7> Hmm. The original founder of Autodesk still lives in Neuchâtel, Switzerland: [https://www.fourmilab.ch/](https://www.fourmilab.ch/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Does anyone remember when Autodesk bought SocialCam? What a bizarre acquisition that was. Although it brought us Mike Seibel who's been a great YC partner.

</comment><comment><USER9> I worry that Soon there will be no real investment in "professional" software, the type with a learning curve that makes us more productive rather than more ad-addicted.

<comment><USER9> (Unlike Photoshop, AutoCAD, etc, most enterprise software is insanely arbitrary one-off stuff that essentially exists as hack for $megacorp to avoid teaching their non-devs any programming.)

<comment><USER10> I don't know that it is to avoid any programming, but the point is pretty well made. Most of the internal enterprise software I've worked on was intended to follow insane and arbitrary policies that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny as a public product.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I hope this doesn't effect the team working on EAGLE. EAGLE sucks, but it has gotten much better since Autodesk took over and actually started making improvements.

<comment><USER12> I hope the same for the teams working on 3DS and Maya.

For the ordinary product design/CNC workflow, Solidworks has been knocking the pants off of Autodesk for the past several updates. It's overwhelmingly more popular with new engineers.

They do have a few electrical and civil engineering products that are hard to find elsewhere (and very hard to migrate from), but the bread and butter of a CAD software company is that Inventor/AutoCAD/Fusion CAM workflow, and Solidworks is just so much easier to use and equally powerful.

<comment><USER13> I was a heavy user of Solidworks. I switched over to Fusion 360.

In my experience, I found Fusion 360 to be a better experience. The ability to do parametric modeling, surfacing, CNC toolpaths,PDM data storage, "cloud" FEA solving. Everything just works. I don't need to manage licensees from multiple vendors. Set up runboxes for simulations. Manage my own PDM server (PITA).Or re-learn 3rd party vendor specific UI/terminology.

On boarding new team members to projects is as easy entering their email address.

Pricing is transparent,straight forward, and reasonable. All my data is auto backed up to "the cloud".

Free for personal use, and commercial use under 100k of revenue. After that the pricing is very reasonable and straightforward. $300 year for basic, $1500/year for ultimate.

The Ultimate version includes shape optimization, 5 axis machining toolpaths, and a few other things. If you had to piece that together from vendors. Your looking at $40k a year per seat. The value is incredibility hard to beat.

Solidworks does have the lead in having a huge 3rd party plugin system,weldements, wire routing. I did get thrown off from the idea of a "mate to the idea of a "joint". It forces you not to use hacky practices when building assemblies.

I feel that Fusion 360 has better product direction compared to Solidworks, and with their SAAS based model can update users more frequently, when compared to Solidwork's yearly basis. But honestly both products are VERY good in general.

Note:Not affiliated with Autodesk in anyway shape or form, other than as an end user. I just really like Fusion 360.

<comment><USER5> What do you think of the re-imagining of Solidworks that is [https://onshape.com](https://onshape.com)? Have you tried it?

<comment><USER13> I heard about it. I have never tried it. I believe the guy that started Solidworks and sold it to Dassault Systemes is behind it. I'll give OnShape a shot this weekend and report back.

I like how they have a free tier for public projects. It lowers the cost of entry dramatically for people just want to "feel" out CAD. I remember when I was little, that I had to visit some sketchy websites to "try" out CAD. It's a great time to be alive now and play with things.

Just checked out their website. Linux support! I'm already 50% sold. My gripe with Fusion 360 is that their is no Ubuntu support. That and Adobe CC is the only reason why I haven't dissolved my windows machine.

<comment><USER13> I just played with Onshape for a little bit.

My overall impressions are good! The program completely redefines my thoughts for capabilities of DOM based applications and WebGL.

Pros: Use anywhere on any device(Linux)! (DOM Based) Free for personal use. Scripting based design automation seems like first class citizens with the part monitoring and profiling features Sheet metal capabilities are easy and intuitive. Something that I can't say for Solidworks. You can straight up delete things in Onshape, Fusion 360 makes that a bit hard. I like the fact that parts and assemblies are two explicitly different things.(Solidworks does this) It makes it easier for my brain to cut the "pie". Fusion does it a more NX'y way where "a part is a part/assembly". I don't have much experience with surfacing, so I can't comment about that aspect. Git like branch/merge functionality with parts.

Cons:

It ain't the whole widget.. At the end of the day it's "just" a CAD program. Which is fine, but I feel that most consumers are getting "finer" tastes with the advent of "the whole widget" design. Thanks Apple. (I don't mean that in a negative way either.) The thing that blew my mind about Fusion 360, is that CAM is integrated and just works, CLOUD Based FEA/Rendering just works, FEA Analysis it's there, Topological optimization there too. Rendering it's there also.

       I see that on the apps developers on Onshape's store, are taking notice. Now you can download CAM add-on, render add-on, etc. I'm
       scared that this is going the way of Solidworks/Jira/Confluence. Where you buy the base program. ($100 per month, then add CAM
       /rendering/FEA separately). That $100 per month now looks like $200 per month. Now you are tied to vendor specific systems. Now you're
       dependent on vendors for fixing their stuff  when OnShape pushes an update. If the 3rd party vendor folds. Now all your legacy data is
       effectively worthless. Or if there are problems, then 3rd party vendor blames Onshape, or Onshape blames vendor.

       If Onshape makes the whole widget, then I have high confidence when an update is pushed, then CAM still works, render still works, and the UI is very
       similar feeling. It makes me have trust that my "mechanical engineering workflow" just works.

       When I use my mechanical engineering workflow. I want to be able to go from rough idea to CAD to FEA to render to 2d part drawings to CAM to "Part is
       literally in my hand". With as little friction as possible. Adobe CC and Fusion 360 do this very well. I feel that with these industries where the data
       model is incredibly complex. Own the whole pie is a requirement. Does that mean you need to lock-in your users? No. Give them escape hatches so they can use
       familiar programs at whatever stage. Export as X, works well for this situation. But the main focus is making the UX/UI seamless between CAD/CAM/CAE. Fusion
       360 in my opinion demolishes onShape in this regard.

       Random side note. In the software engineering field, Companies that control the entire widget is "frowned upon". With good reason. The "data models" are
       usually only text based (.C, .py, .js, .yaml,etc), and have  open source standards associated with it. Meaning if you write Python in Visual Studio, the
       same Python code will work in PyCharm. This is good. That means past the IDE stage, The files coming out are "clean and non-propriety", which allows you to
       use any git-client you want. Git is open source and has a non-proprietary data model. So now you have the choice of using Github,Bitbucket,Gitlabs, etc. If
       you don't like one, then switching is "painless".

       Same goes for CI (Travis,Pipelines, etc,) To cloud providers (Kubernetes on Google Cloud, AWS, Azure etc). You're never locked in, since the data model at each stage is straightforward (text-based, that is interpreted to commonly agreed upon standards).

       The CAD/CAM/CAE industry is nothing like this....which is why owning the whole widget, until/if common data models become prevalent.

OnShape's value proposition is a bit weak compared to Fusion 360.

Fusion 360 is free under ($100k of revenue per year), $300 a year for basic, and $1500 a year for Ultimate. (Basic will work for like 95% of users).

OnShape is free for personal/non-commercial use and everything needs to be publicly accessible. Then to go from personal to commerical/private. It's $1500 a year...just for CAD. Want the other features that Fusion 360 has? Open your wallet...

Fusion 360 in many respects, functions as a great drug dealer. They give you a little for free. They supply more value for you, as you need it. But the pricing is never so high , where you need to make hard call, and stop using their drugs. You grow with your drug dealer. Onshape is like "Here's enough for one hit", but if you want any more than that. Here's a brick, and I won't give it in little bags so you can give it to your friends at parties. You need to do it yourself....It's also a felony if you screw up when you try to buy in big.

Here's a good use case: I'm an at home inventor that wants to do a Kickstarter/Sharktank product. With OnShape, since it's commercial I need to front $1500 a year to solve only one piece of my product pie. Then more cash after that. With Fusion 360, I pay $0. If it takes off and I make over $100k. Paying $300 bucks a year is literally not a problem.

With this use case: OnShape isn't even on the radar for a CAD product to use.

But I always root for the underdog. But they have some work to do before they can have the same impact as Solidworks when came in out in the 90's. The DOM based app is really cool, and has alot of potential. But I don't plan on doing CAD on my Pixel2. The CAD/CAM/CAE workflow matters an order of magnitude more. Here's the cool thing. All of that can be computed in the DOM, so it can be developed down the line.

For year of 2015+ products, Fusion has the crown now.

<comment><USER14> Thanks for reporting your experiences here even though this discussion ended 3 days ago(!)

<comment><USER13> Your 100% right. I told the original responded that I would report back. I felt obligated. :) I sent him my response via email too, so my time input wouldn't die in vain..

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Interesting, given how at some point they were given as an example of "old software company that actually managed to hop on the mobile train". Guess the mobile train turned to be less important than originally thought (at least from a revenue perspective).

</comment><comment><USER16> Probably just cutting the standard big-corp fat. If I'm correct their financial results are great, in many areas even improving

<comment><USER17> It's much worse than that unfortunately.

Pre-tax income 2013: $310m on $2.3b in sales

Pre-tax income 2014: $279m on $2.26b in sales

Pre-tax income 2015: $83m on $2.5b in sales

Pre-tax income 2016: -$20m on $2.46b in sales

Pre-tax income last four quarters: -$544m on $1.95b in sales

Net income for 2013 was $247m, for 2014 it was $228m, for 2015 it was $81m. For the last eight quarters, it's nearly a negative billion dollars.

Net tangible assets 2015: $676 million

Net tangible assets 3Q17: -$1.3 billion

Their business is in trouble.

To make matters worse, they've got a $24 billion market cap. When times were good in 2013, they'd have been sporting a near 100 PE ratio with that market cap. Today it's particularly crazy, given they've had net negative growth over the last five years and they're losing a lot of money.

Fair value in my opinion is closer to 70% lower than what they're trading for right now. That's assuming 30 times earnings on getting back to $230m +/\- in net income. In more normal times that 30 PE would be very rich for a zero growth company. A more skeptical look at them, would be they're worth 85% to 90% less than what they're trading for today, if their business continues to contract or remains weak and they struggle to get back to something more like $80m to $100m in net income.

<comment><USER5> Autodesk continuously touts that they are in a big transition from product sales to subscription and that huge growth is just around the corner. Do you discount those claims?

<comment><USER17> I don't see why it would be necessary to discount such claims. The claims are worthless. They're not worth considering at all, until they _prove something_ (and right now they're running a substantial credibility deficit).

Ten years of zero net growth, and four years of declining profitability, should tell you everything you need to know about what's actually happening. They've spent most of their profits from the last decade on faking EPS growth with buybacks while their business was languishing. Now things are so bad, they're hatcheting their most valuable resource: their people.

I think they spent ~$188 million buying back their stock in the first quarter, while losing over $100m in operating income. They paid $85 per share for those shares. Around 80 times earnings, if earnings were still at the old 2013 levels.

It's financial suicide. They're driving Autodesk into a wall at high speeds, while destroying their balance sheet trying to keep the stock propped up with buybacks far beyond what they can actually afford based on present profitability and a reasonable outlook the next few years (which is why they're firing 13% of their staff).

Or put it another way. The cost of the share buyback announced last year could cover the cost of the 13% of workers that are getting fired, for at least two decades.

Autodesk long ago got into the IBM financial engineering business. The consequences of that are getting more unavoidable by the year.

<comment><USER18> > Or put it another way. The cost of the share buyback announced last year > could cover the cost of the 13% of workers that are getting fired, for at > least two decades.

Do you have any pointers on how to do this kind of financial analysis of a public company?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> What products will this effect? Maya is essentially in maintenance mode, so I don't think that will get any worse...

Hopefully these employees land on their feet!

<comment><USER2> They've announced the majority of cuts involve terminating a few speculative R&D projects and cutting international sales staff.

Maya development doesn't seem slow at all. The new UV toolkit in 2018 is pretty great. On the backend, they migrated to Qt 5 last year, and 2018 introduces major changes to the plugin API aiming for greater stability and backward compatibility.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> They have done so many 10% or more layoffs in the last 9 years, it's hard to keep track.

</comment><comment><USER21> Lol, I just got an interview offer from Autodesk on Monday via LinkedIn.. Uhh, no thanks.

<comment><USER22> I've seen that plenty of big companies lay off people with the left hand and continue hiring with the right - usually for different teams on different locations.

I'm not as enthusiastic to work in one of those megacorps as I once was, and yes, if they decide to do a layoff round next year you could be affected, but I guess that at the very least you'd have one year of employment there.

<comment><USER23> I'd still be hesitant. When a company is cutting jobs because they are in trouble, they become somewhat unpredictable. The hiring manager you're talking to may himself be out of job in a couple of weeks.

Example: Someone my wife knows moved to a different state to take a job with a big financial firm (Fidelity) and they got "laid off" before they even started.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Can a single damn news source stop using metaphors in their titles?… I _infer_ there's a huge lay off here…

<comment><USER25> Now I'm picturing an onion article about axing employees with actual axes.</comment></comment>


Think Money Leads to Educational Results? Think again. - <AUTHOR> http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html

<comment><USER2> This 13-year-old article uses two anecdotal data points to arrive at a conclusion that reinforces the Cato Institute's preconceptions. The only certain conclusion that can be drawn is that spending more money does not always improve education. Hardly a revelation, and hardly a basis to make public policy decisions on.

<comment><USER3> Not that I disagree with your point about Cato Institute's bias, but this mashup [http://www.datamasher.org/mash-ups/spent-student-and-sat- sco...](http://www.datamasher.org/mash-ups/spent-student-and-sat-scores) of SAT scores vs expenditure per pupil would suggest that more money != better education.</comment></comment>