The Best To-Do List: A Private Gist - <AUTHOR> http://carlsednaoui.com/post/70299468325/the-best-to-do-list-a-private-gist <comment><USER2> All the manual creation of checkboxes, deletion, and moving of tasks to me makes Gist far from "The Best" to-do list. Personally, I find the lighweight Google Tasks just fine, especially since there are many excellent mobile apps that sync with it and builtin support for multiple lists. I wish the URL for it was a bit more memorable though ([https://mail.google.com/tasks/canvas?pli=1](https://mail.google.com/tasks/canvas?pli=1)). The only thing missing is date completed, which I personally don't find very useful, but a calendar would probably be better if you want to keep track of that.

Edit: Nevermind, it does save date completed.

</comment><comment><USER3> Correction:

The Best To-Do List: Org-Mode

[http://orgmode.org/](http://orgmode.org/)

<comment><USER4> Combined with dropbox or some other remote storage and sync tool across multiple devices, this works wonders. There is an org-mode app for mobile devices as well. Of course people who dislike emacs might have a problem but it's quite hackable and there is nothing to keep one from associated .org files with emacs and using emacs just for todo lists (theres only about 5 or 8 commands in org-mode that you really have to know to be effective).

<comment><USER5> What's the accepted most mature Vim equivalent or clone for org mode? Is there any?

<comment><USER6> To make use of org-mode but use the familiar vim keybindings, I just use emacs with evil-mode, the vim emulation mode. It works great. I've searched for a vim-centered alternative to org-mode for a long time; this is the best way I've found.

<comment><USER5> Thanks, so much. I might be in touch with you about this when I get around to trying it out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm also a huge fan of todo lists. I like the simplicity of this approach. I still feel like Trello is better though. Trello is almost perfect. It's heavier for sure, but you gain a ton of flexibility and power.

My wife and I put an old iPad up on our fridge and use Trello to maintain needed groceries, chores, household repairs, and upcoming events. Even better, these lists automatically sync to our phones and PCs. I can just head to the grocery store whenever I have a free moment and my grocery list is always up to date and ready for me.

<comment><USER8> What do you use to keep the iPad on the fridge? We've been looking for a way to repurpose an old one of ours and this may be perfect.

<comment><USER7> We bought this: -- [http://www.ebay.com/itm/Combo-Magnetic-Refrigerator- Fridge-W...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/Combo-Magnetic-Refrigerator-Fridge-Wall- Mount-Bracket-Dock-iPad- Gen-1-2-3-4-/310577417397?pt=US_Tablet_eReader_Mounts_Stands_Holders&hash=item484fdb4cb5)

but, the brackets are a bit too small, so the iPad doesn't fully sit well. The iPad does stay put and hasn't fallen yet, but I'd recommend trying another brand.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> For me, it's still paper. Specifically, this paper:

[http://www.amazon.com/Strathmore-Visual-Journal--Mixed- Media...](http://www.amazon.com/Strathmore-Visual-Journal--Mixed- Media/dp/B003YIZ0HI/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1388688389&sr=8-4&keywords=mixed+media+paper)

The spiral bound means it can be left open to the right page, and the thick paper is great. Version control (new pages) is built in. And the best part is that it's always right there in front of me, and I can glance down.

<comment><USER7> Is it just an empty pad? Or is there something printed on the pages to give some structure?

<comment><USER9> Empty pad -- I like it better that way. Sometimes my "TODO List" involves mockups or doodles, sometimes it involves sub-todo lists, etc. I like the flexibility.

I also only use a red pen for checking things off. Not sure why; it just feels better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Here's the thing ... the BEST to-do list is the one you use. Its that simple. For me, that's Workflowy.

<comment><USER11> the link: [https://workflowy.com/](https://workflowy.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> None of the complaints in this thread consider the utility of creating sharable checklists.

The ability to quickly slam a checklist into a gist and share it with others is very handy.

</comment><comment><USER13> I just use a file in Dropbox. That is devastatingly effective for me - available across devices and offline.

<comment><USER14> I like this approach, will definitely give it a try.

How do you structure your dropbox file? Is it a simple running list of tasks? (.txt)

<comment><USER13> Yup - i have two files: work and personal and that's it.

Just two files forces me to prioritize within these two spheres.

<comment><USER14> Interesting, I'll give this a go with my personal to-do (for that one I currently use a gdoc).

Thanks for sharing!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I think wunderlist is pretty much what stayed with me for longest. Everything else kind of falls away. And paper of course :)

I appreciate innovations in this space, however I stopped even trying new things as experience shows they don't bring much once novelty wears off.

<comment><USER16> I keep on thinking about writing one that actually mirrors the way I think of tasks.

I don't think of all tasks equally. I have long term things, that usually get put off until they are not so long term. Big things that can be subtasked. Small things. Important things. Things that need done by lunchtime. So far I have not seen one that does anything like this. Does anyone know of one?

Anyway, writing it will be on my todo list.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I like Wunderlist. Cross platform, syncs and all kinds of other goodies. Can send to-do items to other people via their email addresses also.

[https://www.wunderlist.com/en/](https://www.wunderlist.com/en/)

</comment><comment><USER18> I like that this is an option, and it's certainly a great option for some people, but calling it the "best" based on "it turns brackets into checkboxes!" is a bit of a stretch.

I do think that gists could be an ideal platform for a more robust todo list, though. It could easily serve as a backend for todotxt [1], for example.

[1] [http://todotxt.com/](http://todotxt.com/)

<comment><USER14> Hi Zikes, author here: This is the best to-do list for _me_ —given my current workflow. I'm in front of my browser with GitHub open 90% of the day and this option fits nicely with my day-to-day activities.

That being said, I definitely think that the _best_ to-do list depends on each person's workflow (the gist approach would be terrible for a real estate person that's always on the run, for example).

Do you use [http://todotxt.com/](http://todotxt.com/)? I hadn't heard of it before, maybe it's worth giving it a shot :)

<comment><USER18> Hi Carl! I think we're in agreement, I can see gists being ideal for many people, I just didn't plug in that mental "for me" in the title.

I have used todotxt in the past and it served me very well. It was originally developed as a simple bash script by Gina Trapani (of Lifehacker fame) and became such a hit that a strong community of developers formed around it, creating interfaces into the todotxt format in a variety of languages and environments.

The fact that it stores all of its data in a single (or series of) simple text file(s) is what makes it really great, as it becomes portable, human-readable, and modifiable if you should find yourself needing to interact with your todo list without any of the tools or scripts handy.

Unfortunately I haven't had a very good track record of keeping up with any of the many todo list applications or variations that I've tried, but every time I decide to try again I start with todotxt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've been using my own minamilist todo-list manager for the last couple of year: [https://github.com/asb/sh-todo](https://github.com/asb/sh-todo)

However I've recently found I want to have some sort of task hierarchy, and to associate notes with tasks. I was going to just extend my text-based file format but luckily came across taskpaper which is pretty much exactly what I was aiming for. I'm now playing with taskpaper.vim and finding it promising: <[https://github.com/davidoc/taskpaper.vim>](https://github.com/davidoc/taskpaper.vim>). I just need to reconfigure vim's display of folded blocks so having all task comments folded is less painful.

</comment><comment><USER20> This is a nice idea. Gists are also cloneable, giving you the the power of git and any tooling that you want to use to update your list.

Also, come on people, you all know that "Best" is subjective. This is the best tool for this guy, so there's no need to shoot it down.

<comment><USER21> If the Android Github app were updated such that the Gist support was a little richer for things like Markdown and those checkboxes, then I really think this might be the best.

The hardest bit I have with todo lists is keeping them current and accessible, meaning syncing across all devices and work-stations/laptops. Git is perfect for this, and this use of Github Flavored Markdown is pretty neat... the only missing thing is a mobile way to manage them efficiently.

<comment><USER20> I've also found that the gist support on Android GitHub is poor. Hopefully this will improve in the future. The nice thing about GitHub is that they listen to feedback. Most likely someone there is reading these comments.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm continually astonished by the number of HN posts on what the best tool to do something is. The reality is that there are often different tools for different needs and there need NOT be just one tool to rule them all.

I find that I keep short-term notes--need to know in in the next hour--in a notepad on my desktop. Tasks that need to be accomplished in the next day+ go into Google Tasks. Things that need elaboration, depth, detail go into Workflowy [0].

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmbnaPZVHE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmbnaPZVHE)

</comment><comment><USER23> The best to-do list: a raw text file

A line = a task

Deleting a line = task finished

A text file = a list of tasks related to some context

The best and fastest editor for this on a Mac: NValt

This is the most efficient and simple solution for managing plenty of todos, no cumbersome rules, check boxes, markdown, web interfaces.

<comment><USER11> Great! But I need: 1) to access it from my linux home PC; 2) access it from my windows work PC (I can't sync it using a version control since I can't store my proxy password in a cleartext file) 3) access it from my android tablet 4) Everything must be synched.

<comment><USER23> Just put the text file on Dropbox and use any available text editor on mentioned clients. Regarding pwds: I separate pwds and todos.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> You should try todoist - www.todoist.com. Todoist really is the best to-do list manager.

</comment><comment><USER25> I've tried a lot of programs but always come back to using a low-tech Gmail draft.

In this particular case, the advantage over gist is that you can edit it offline on mobile (I ride the subway) and it syncs automatically

</comment><comment><USER26> I haven't used it in years but this reminded me of TiddlyWiki [0], which will work whether you have Internet access or not.

[0]: [http://tiddlywiki.org/](http://tiddlywiki.org/)

<comment><USER27> Tiddlywiki used to be my favorite thing for keeping todo lists and notes about whatever I am working on. It has not aged gracefully though. There have been several issues as web browsers have tightened permissions surrounding file:// URIs. It works on mobile but its very clunky. I wrote a simple http back end for it but every time I request the file ornsave I am sending 1MB+ of data across the network. The author of Tiddlywiki is working on a next gen version but its still lacking some things I want too see like offline use via indexeddb.

All that being said I have been doing something similar to the OP but using Google Keep. It works offline, on mobile, or on the desktop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I recommend using gistbox [0]. It allows tagging and other features that make gist convenient as a todo list.

[0]- [http://www.gistboxapp.com/](http://www.gistboxapp.com/)

</comment><comment><USER29> This is great, simple and easy. I wish that it didn't save a revision every time you checked an item. I'm more interested in keeping revisions on how my list items change. Granted, there could be some value in knowing when I completed items, but that being said, when you check an item is not necessarily when it was completed.

</comment><comment><USER30> I prefer a pen and paper.

1\. Doesn't require a login

2\. Is always visible on my desk and not lost behind a window.

3\. Supports crude drawings.

4\. Doesn't require power or an internet connection.

I have yet to find an online equivilant which comes close to being as fast or useful as pen and paper for creating and maintaining a personal list of to- do's.

</comment><comment><USER31> I use Evernote to create todo lists while programming. I name the title todo_[date] or note_[date] that way I can go back to dates in the list and see what I have missed. I see it as simple as gist todo lists but with IMO a better UI for better search/organization.

</comment><comment><USER32> Shameless plug here, check out my iPhone app Begin: [http://beginapp.co/](http://beginapp.co/)

It's goal is to be an extremely simple to-do list. I'd love to hear what you guys think.

<comment><USER33> This looks super impressive. Angry I just left my iPhone in a cab :(

<comment><USER32> Thanks! Sorry about your phone :(

<comment><USER33> haha. you didn't do it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've spent a lot of time thinking about TODO lists and trying different solutions. Eventually, I settled on a very specific means of using good, old, pen-and-paper.

I think probably the most important feature of the TODO list is that it gives you mental clarity. Both the popular book "Getting Things Done" and a career couch I worked with for several months talk about the importance of clearing the mind before being able to begin work in earnest. If you have "do the laundry" stuck in your head, it's going to be a major hurdle for getting through work. So, having some sort of system to capture everything that needs to be done is essential for staying on task with work.

So that means that the most important feature of TODO is capture. Any system that imposes overhead on capturing items for your TODO list will eventually fall out of habit. You'll start to mentally prioritize which things go on the list and which things do not. That ultimately defeats the purpose of the TODO list, to get things out of mind, squirreled away in a safe place.

Thus, very formal issue trackers like BugZilla or Redmine (or anything else that has a separate "issue entry page") are far too cumbersome for capture.

But being streamlined on capture is not the whole solution. Having used sites like PivotalTracker or Trello, I've fallen into traps of recording TOO much. Certain pie-in-the-sky tasks will sit in the list for months on end, getting no closer to ever getting worked on. It then becomes its own mental burden, worrying about whether or not certain TODO items will end up in that moribund pile. I even tried writing my own that had an arbitrary limit to the number of items I could enter. It just didn't feel right. It was always too easy to just bump up the limit and keep adding items.

So with all of my experience with various activity and issue tracking systems, I went straight back to pen and paper. My system is very simple, but it is not from lack of design. Its simplicity is the design.

I use an ink pen on a yellow legal pad. The pads are cheap and readily available. The ink requires strike-throughs for error corrections. I write in two columns, but only to be able to use all of the paper. There is no semantic difference between the two columns.

I do not number things, unless I'm in crunch mode and am working very fast through a series of items. I am more likely to underline the high priority items, rather than number them. I don't think it's really possible to prioritize things any more than "things I'm working on in the next few hours" versus "things I'm not working on soon." Anything more than that really calls into question the entire concept of priority for me. It's easy enough to scan the list and figure out priority as I work. I can also rewrite the list with higher priority items at the top if necessary. Usually it's not necessary.

Completed items get scratched out, fairly heavily. The goal is then to fill the page with ink. It becomes a motivating factor to finish the last few items on the list.

The list is limited to 2 columns only and is not allowed to spill on to a second page. I rewrite the list either once a week or (more often) when the page is full to remove the completed items. I did three columns for a while, but it started to develop a deadpool at the bottom right end of the page, so I went back to two columns. Multiple pages would be even worse, and would make it harder to scan the total list. That basically means I'm limited to a max of 50 or so active items on my TODO list. I've found that, if I need much more than 50, then I've failed to manage my work correctly. The desire to record more is a signal that I'm procrastinating things and taking on too many commitments.

And that's it. Any other feature of TODO list tracking is either too restricting on capture or too enabling on over capture. Pen and paper is it for me.

<comment><USER35> That reminds me of another paper system I used for a while. Add new tasks to the page. When it fills, write all unfinished tasks on the next page, and mark them with a star to show they've been moved. Next time you move tasks, do NOT move tasks that were starred.

Basically, it's a tacit admission that you're not going to get around to it. This is good, because for most of us, our true to-do list is deeper than our ability or will to finish it. Deleting the backburner things helps reduce guilt.

<comment><USER34> Yes, it's very important to delete backburner stuff. I've failed those projects whether or not I admit it. Admitting it is the only way to move forward. It's better both for me and the thing that needs to be done.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> it is pretty cool how you use the revision history for something unique, but this needs to be simplified greatly. It seems like if you made an app that automatically changes the list and updates git, it would be extremely efficient. I would put a create today's list link in that gives you a popup that you can fill out with just a task per line that turns into a checklist.

</comment><comment><USER37> There isn't a decent client for Android that can edit a Gist very easily. I keep my to-do list either on Google Tasks or as Gmail draft.

</comment><comment><USER38> I use workflowy and it works pretty nice

</comment><comment><USER39> I'm still a huge fan of Vesper. It's the perfect TODO list. It just works.</comment>


Node Para Principiantes – Subiendo Nuestra App En Node.js a Heroku - <AUTHOR> http://blog.miguhruiz.xyz/nodejs-heroku/ <comment><USER2> This is an English speaking forum, so this post will be probably ignored or flagged. Do you have an English translation? It will get much more trafic

By the way, the link to "el post anterior" is wrong. You should fix it.

[Saludos desde Argentina.]</comment>


Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently. - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mibbit.com/?p=306 <comment><USER3> I know the "official" reason, but I'm curious if there's any correlation between the blocking of mibbit and axod's post about how much revenue mibbit was making here (<http://axod.blogspot.com/2009/06/revenue-browser.html>) - the timing is awfully suspicious.

I mean, a day after the post they "magically" have their own web client up that they would rather you use.

I had a look at the qwebirc client they implemented, default installation right now (looks like it was just thrown up) no ads yet, wondering how long before that changes?

EDIT - well it seems that in part some of the argument from freenode's perspective is about money.

      (00:44:02) axod: nenolod: and please explain what incentive I would have to falsify such information
      (00:44:17) nenolod: axod: assistance with ban evasion in exchange for money
      (00:44:26) axod: nenolod: seriouslly?
      (00:44:30) nenolod: axod: seriously.
      (00:44:33) axod: lol

<comment><USER4> Another fun quote:

<nenolod> jtrucks: because mibbit users are retards and they think mibbit is the only way

<comment><USER5> I've actually spoken to several users who found that to be true. Even if silly, from the point of view of someone who knows what IRC is. Which is _far_ from everyone.

//edit: don't care much about karma, but I am curious as to how pointing out that not everyone knows what they're doing on IRC gets me downvoted.

<comment><USER6> You are agreeing with someone who said "mibbit users are retards." That's not the kind of language that's encouraged around here.

<comment><USER5> Oh. Thanks for explaining. I didn't mean to imply that mibbit users are retarded. Just that they don't quite know (or care?) as much about IRC as other people do.

<comment><USER4> I take offense at that. Do you have enough data to make that judgement? Out of the millions of people using Mibbit, you've done a survey and measured? Or is it just more likely that you'll notice if someone causing abuse is using mibbit?

<comment><USER5> Erm, might I suggest you reread what _I_ said here, in this particular thread. Which amounted to saying that not all Mibbit users know or care much about IRC. Which is a very silly thing to be taking offense to, let alone demand to be proven.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is a sad thing in terms of Freenode, and users trying to access it from Mibbit, but will not affect Mibbit as such.

I remember using Freenode early on when I discovered open source. It was a fantastic vibrant place with hackers all over the place. openprojects, lilo, great...

Unfortunately, maybe it's got too big. The atmosphere has changed for the worse IMHO. In my opinion, the staff no longer represent the community.

Today, they put their own ideals ahead of their users. Their objections to Mibbit have been

      * It's not open source
      * It makes money

The 'abuse' reason I believe is a red herring. Abuse is easy enough to deal with, and them operating their own web client won't change how often people abuse using a web client. In fact their own web client is less secure than mibbit in terms of preventing abuse.

So, IMHO, a sad day for Freenode and all that they used to represent, but an opportunity to create a new haven for hackers.

<comment><USER7> _Today, they put their own ideals ahead of their users. Their objections to Mibbit have been: It's not open source, It makes money_

Working with Mibbit clearly costs freenode time and resources that they would rather not spend. Since Mibbit makes money, perhaps you should consider entering into a contractual relationship to provide them with financial incentive and other guarantees, in exchange for their investment in supporting your service?

 _The 'abuse' reason I believe is a red herring. Abuse is easy enough to deal with, and them operating their own web client won't change how often people abuse using a web client._

The abuse from Mibbit has been the only reason (in months) that I've had to set myself as an operator and ban users. As a user, I don't feel this is a 'red herring'.

 _So, IMHO, a sad day for Freenode and all that they used to represent, but an opportunity to create a new haven for hackers._

I'm perfectly happy on Freenode, and our IRC channels are quite vibrant. I hope you can reach a resolution with the Freenode staff.

<comment><USER4> I offered to sponsor servers, to help with coding, etc many many times. My emails were ignored. When I popped into #freenode to ask, they said "We assumed you wanted something in return so we ignored them".

I also offered to help with the abuse. I've asked several times for details of abuse. I haven't been able to get concrete details on what abuse happens, when, what they have to do etc. The staff are incredibly secretive - <USER2> other networks, they don't link servers, their staff run everything, and I believe this was one of the reasons - they want complete control over everything including web clients.

Out of 500 or so people @peak times, I think the abuse level was really low. Also it's easily solved with a WEBIRC setup which we have with a large number of IRC networks (Which we never hear from, because abuse is handled by WEBIRC and their own systems as with direct connections).

I hope freenode will decide to reconsider, but they clearly want people to use their own web client, rather than mibbit. It would have been nice to at least give people some notice rather than just shut off access.

<comment><USER8> We (#perl) banned mib_* nicks and found anybody smart enough to type their own nickname in was generally fine. Plus we learned how to extract the original IP from the mibbit host string so we could nuke ban evaders comfortably even without freenode supporting WEBIRC.

In fact, we were planning to have mibbit links to freenode#perl showing up all sorts of places in the perl community to try and make it easier for people to get onto IRC and ask questions when they got stuck with things. I've notified the guys working on that to hang fire until we work out what the hell is going on.

Most annoying, whoever's fault it is (and being an argument on the internet I'm going to default to "everybody's, and especially mine, even if I wasn't involved" :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> As I said in the previous thread before mariorz deleted his own submission:

This is completely stupid of Freenode. Shame on them.

Axod, how do you know it's permanent? Have they made a statement?

<comment><USER7> As someone who has been placed in the position of semi-regularly banning mibbit from freenode OSS project channels due to abusive users, I can't see how this is a bad thing.

The quality of user was exceptionally low, and "easy webchat" simply doesn't seem like a strong value proposition for the technical users that frequent the network.

<comment><USER10> Agreed. Maybe it's not very nice, but I kind of think that anyone incapable of installing a proper IRC client probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place.

The situation on, say, the ruby-talk mailing list is analogous; whenever you see a really, really stupid question, check out the submitter - chances are it's through one of the web interfaces to the ML.

The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a _good_ barrier to entry.

<comment><USER11> Elitist cack.

I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).

<comment><USER10> _"Elitist cack"_

Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence.

Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want?

I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC.

If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that?

And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.

<comment><USER12> _people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences_

This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client.

Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.

<comment><USER7> _This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client._

First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC- capable proxies.

Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall order, equivalent to peering their IRC servers with Mibbit, as it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity.

 _Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty._

What 'trust' must be divested in end-user, per-user desktop IRC clients? Mibbit must be trusted to report user identity accurately, to not allow proxy connections, and to quickly respond to abuse while not causing freenode's volunteer's undue labor.

Most importantly, freenode is privately owned and managed, it's not a public service and has no responsibility to provide service to Mibbit, especially if Mibbit causes a disproportionately sized administrative headache.

<comment><USER12> _...it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity._

What conceivable reason would Mibbit have for doing that?

 _Mibbit must be trusted to ... not allow proxy connections_

No, that's not true. Mibbit must be trusted merely to pass-on the correct IP. Then Freenode's _existing_ proxy detection can handle the job of rejecting proxied connections.

You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and suggesting that there's an incentive to give Freenode false information about users' IP addresses. Why?

<comment><USER10> _"You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here"_

I know nothing about Mibbit beyond their web page and their colourful representative here, but - it's not about the personal integrity of the founder, or whatever. Mibbit's whole business model is around advertising. The more page views, the more advertising, the more profit. They have no investment in any other metric. It is reasonable to assume Mibbit does whatever they can think of to boost their usage.

 _"suggesting that there's an incentive to give Freenode false information about users' IP addresses"_

There is a clear commercial incentive to encourage usage of the service. If sending random IPs to Freenode boosts revenue, there would be an incentive to do that. That would be reprehensible, of course, but you can't say there's no incentive.

<comment><USER4> Incentive or not, some of us have integrity and honor and choose to play by the rules of what is right. Not what makes the most money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Ouch. Mibbit+Freenode has saved my butt many times. Sad to see it go... especially when Mibbit is one of the better choices when it comes to free IRC on Windows.

<comment><USER14> You can use that instead <http://webchat.freenode.net/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> So what is an alternative Web Based IRC client? For those of us working behind a corporate firewall, Mibbit.com was the only way to access IRC.

<comment><USER14> <http://webchat.freenode.net/> lightweight, minimalist, opensource, fast, ad free, I love it already.

<comment><AUTHOR> And absolutely broken on Opera 10 :/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> If freenode is really having that much difficulty with Mibbit clients, why not allow individual channels to allow/deny Mibbit clients.

<comment><USER17> Well, just from the threads here, apparently they're not really having any difficulty with Mibbit; they just saw an opportunity to bring that traffic in- house.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Freenode accepts Tor connections, so just connect that way.

<comment><USER19> Freenode _sometimes_ accepts Tor connections. Other times they too are banned due to abuse. Of course you could sign up with their tor-gpg hidden service to get past that block.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'd just start running everything through Tor. That's the way they should have handled this anyways. If it is a problem, block it temporarily or unregistered/confirmed users. To me this sounds more like something personal than an actual logical reason.

</comment><comment><USER21> The new #startups is on irc.mibbit.net

<comment><USER22> Actually #startups has _not_ moved. It is still alive and kicking on freenode.

<comment><USER9> It's alive and kicking without one of its most active members. That's not good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> there is a webirc project in the works for freenode if i know correctly, its based on quakenets qwebirc (which is a lot nicer then mibbit, but of course YMMV)

<comment><USER21> The reason people are moving to the new #startups is not to use mibbit's client (I'm using Colloquy on the Mac), but rather to show solidarity for axod.

<comment><USER24> people are not willingly moving, they are forced to move. So are they showing support or forced to 'show support' ?

<comment><USER21> Nobody's forced to use the new #startups. You could just as easily start #startups2 and sit by yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> axod - you might want to handle widgets and other things in a nicer way: <http://www.bikechatter.com/chat> , by for instance, just saying up front that freenode is broken.

</comment><comment><USER26> Well, if this isn't a perfect vortex of inconsequentiality then I don't know what is.

</comment><comment><USER27> i imagine the default irc:// protocol handler set to mibbit in future firefoxen influenced their decision

</comment><comment><USER28> RIP Freenode and Lilo.

It's a shame, but the extreme reactions of the freenode operators is destroying the server. Soon you'll need an encryption key, proprietary software and be forced to donate (which btw i wont be doing any more)

</comment><comment><USER29> This is messed up. The only reason I use mibbit is to get on Freenode when I'm coding at public terminals.

<comment><USER14> You can use that now <http://webchat.freenode.net/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> why splitting community ? shame

[17:30] <swombat> it's called +m [17:30] <swombat> it works like this [17:30] __* swombat sets the channel mode to 'moderated'.</comment>


Pineapple Fund's $56M Giving Spree - <AUTHOR> https://www.philanthropy.com/article/Anonymous-Bitcoin-Donor-Rains/242606/#.WpXBu7xClmA.twitter <comment><USER2> Really great to see MDMA research (MAPS, Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) get funded by Pine. MDMA seems to be a high potential therapy.

I hope the next crypto philanthropist funds other psychedelic research, e.g. Heffter Research. [https://heffter.org/](https://heffter.org/) Psilocybin and classic psychedelics also seems to be very high potential - e.g. for addiction [0], problem solving/creativity [1], and for depression/anxiety [2].

[0]: [https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms- smoking/](https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms-smoking/)

[1]: [https://thethirdwave.co/psychedelics- creativity/](https://thethirdwave.co/psychedelics-creativity/)

[2]: [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/health/hallucinogenic- mus...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/health/hallucinogenic-mushrooms- psilocybin-cancer-anxiety-depression.html)

<comment><USER2> Looks like Pineapple Fund donated some to [http://csp.org/psilocybin/](http://csp.org/psilocybin/), awesome!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I wonder if this is somebody really being philanthropic, or if they just control a ton of bitcoin that they can't access (for fear of taxation / Questions Being Asked), so they drop it on charities they're sympathetic to...

<comment><USER4> Isn't it philanthropy regardless? If Pine benefits, it's only because society benefits.

<comment><USER5> It's difficult to realize a structural benefit to society through charity.

<comment><USER6> Could you elaborate on your meaning?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > OpenMRS said Pine had contributed software patches to the effort previously.

Philanthropy.com did this person a grave disservice. This drastically narrows the donor pool and is quite in violation of their earlier statement:

> Pine agreed to a phone interview with the Chronicle on the condition that > the article include no identifying information.

<comment><USER8> It's third-hand reporting. OpenMRS has it on their website.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Noob question here: You receive $1mil in bitcoin as someone who knows nothing about bitcoin...then what? Do you sell it? Do you need to go find someone to sell it to?

I'd imagine you can't just go to an exchange and unload $1mil in bitcoin as most exchanges have limits on how much you can trade at once without more advanced accounts?

<comment><USER10> I think you can open an Institutional account at one of the exchanges like Gemini or Kraken and have them unload it for you slowly.

[https://gemini.com/institutions/](https://gemini.com/institutions/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Good on him/her/them. It would be really nice if more wealthy people donated to the Open source world, to organisations like the EFF and mental health organisations etc (without strings attached...).

<comment><USER12> Most of those wealthy people you mean are older and not as technologically aware, so the charities they fund are ones that they know of (and bring them more social kudos) such as AIDS/Cancer/Human Rights organisations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> These are cryptocurrency gifts, right? How would the recipients realize the money from them, or would they treat them as assets to hold?

<comment><USER8> I believe that many/most organizations have policies to convert unstable assets asap.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> How does taxation/deduction work on bitcoins which were not a taxable asset when originated but are maybe sort of an asset now that they're being given away? Is this donation of magic beans deductible now that the IRS has maybe started to notice? I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have been deductible a year ago.

</comment><comment><USER14> Loosing access to a 69 BTC PK from 2012 still gives me nightmares, but I feel happy for the ones who made enough money to spread good will.

</comment><comment><USER15> Has the wallet (or wallets) they have been sending from been revealed?

Edit: They link to the transactions on the pineapple fund site

</comment><comment><USER16> Not sure how to feel about that. Given that bitcoin is a strictly negative-sum game now, all that money came from greater fools in the end (they just don't know it yet). It's somewhat Robin Hood-esque (except that a majority of bag holders will be poor people duped into buying btc) and the morality of it is… complicated.

</comment><comment><USER17> For people who skip the article and go straight to the comments. This is indeed about the Pineapple fund [0].

[0] [https://pineapplefund.org](https://pineapplefund.org)

<comment><USER18> I have a question, how can you register a website by being anonymous ? I don't understand, anyone care to explain ? Thanks.

<comment><USER19> Most domain registrars allow you to add "privacy protection" for a nominal fee, which basically replaces your name under the WHOIS registrant info with theirs instead of yours. While this effectively shields outsiders from discovering who you are, the registrar likely knows the information of the original buyer...

<comment><USER20> It probably can be handled by a lawyer and/or trust as well. Even if they get past the registrar privacy, they get some business entity or lawyer contact.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The source of the funds should be a concern for the charities involved in my opinion. I find the recipients a little quick to praise the donor with little being said about how the bitcoins were obtained. Maybe this information was simply not made public, and that would be fine if there was due diligence. However the fact more established institutions did not receive gifts is an eyebrow raiser: it is more likely these larger institutions would have taken steps to ensure the funds were legit to start with.

<comment><USER8> If someone tells you that they personally dug up some gold in a mountain in Colorado, how exactly would you go about verifying their claim?

<comment><USER21> Mining rights, proper registration and certification of the gold nugget, etc., etc. It's fairly common in the financial industry to check where funds come from ("know your customer"). It's done to prevent money laundering and make illicit activity harder.

<comment><USER8> Ok, but now there are no mining rights or certifications for virtual magic beans.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Visualize your daily productivity - <AUTHOR> https://wakatime.com/blog/5-visualize-your-daily-productivity

<comment> 97-109-107 It's either something with me, or the wording feels off. When I landed on the page, I caught the graph with the corner of my eye, I assumed it is a graph of productivity and started reading from the top. The context of the message feels just not on the right level - I assume that most visitors will immediately grok what this graph is about, and instead of presenting more context to - ex. how you measure it, how to get one for yourself, what is the quantifiable bit behind it or where it falls short - I get a vague message which explains to me when and how are time-series applicable to productivity measurement - which, perhaps mistakenly, feels pretty obvious to me. Didn't mean to sound harsh, I might actually try your service, but this message just didn't cut it for me.</comment>


How to Promote Startups - <AUTHOR> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/prostartup

<comment><USER2> Who is going to implement such a social net? Congress? The same Congress that has a 15% approval rating and a 97% re-election rate? The same Congress that is run by K-street? Currently, we spend as much as a percentage of GDP on Medicare/Medicaid as every other developed country spends altogether on healthcare. Theoretically, we could just turn Medicare into a single payer system that covered everyone, get the same benefits as the European countries, and not even raise taxes. Strangely, no presidential candidate has mentioned such a sensible proposal.

The problems Aaron cites can almost all be blamed on the government. The drug companies, insurance companies, and big city hospitals are effectively state cartels. The AMA and nurse unions are a state guilds. They have all worked together to drive the price of healthcare through the roof. Government zoning regulations and negative interest rates have made housing prices rise at a far greater rate than wages. The decline of the dollar has led to massive investment in commodity indexes, driving up the price of food and oil. SEC regulations make it very difficult for entrepreneurs to raise money from small time investors. What makes you think that the government that causes all these problems is going to wake up tomorrow, and in a fit of competence and good sense, actually fix them? Better idea: abolish the Feds altogether. Without paying taxes to Washington and monopoly prices to state guilds, we could all retire at 30.

<comment><USER3> A true libertarian.

One implication of having similar temperaments (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240>) is that a lot of NTs tend to be libertarians. So this site will likely favor a libertarian view.

I agree partially with this. Government regulation in some industries prevent startups from entering (ie health care and medicine). And since the most radical solutions are going to come from startups, no startups will slow down innovation. I also agree that the US is spending a lot of money inefficiently where companies motivated properly could spend it more effectively.

I believe if the house, senate and presidency is democratic that a social net is possible in the next 4 years. Implying that low approval ratings mean congress won't do anything isn't true. If anything it may motivate them to do something like this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Providing a safety net might or might not encourage startups, but it's misleading to suggest that this idea is somehow in opposition to allowing economic inequality. To decrease economic inequality, you have to confiscate the wealth of the rich, not merely give money to the poor. As long as you allow people to become billionaires, you'll have huge economic inequality, no matter what's happening at the other end of the scale.

<comment><USER5> They're not necessarily in opposition, but the only payment method that the universal health care supporters ever seem to come up with is "take it from the rich".

<comment><USER4> If you want to give more money to the poor, the only place you can get it is from the rich. But the amount you'd have to take to fund universal health insurance wouldn't put much of a dent in inequality. To get rid of inequality, you have to explicitly ban being rich, e.g. with tax rates that go asymptotic at a certain point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> All if his suggestions are great until it comes time to pay the bill for them. It's rather naive to suggest that universal child and health care and free college for everyone will make our country so much better without explaining the very serious effects (many of which we probably don't know) that paying for all of it will have.

<comment><USER6> How about taking 60% of existing military budget and allocating that towards health care?

How about forcing hospitals to buy directly from manufacturers avoiding multi- tier nets of middlemen?

I am not even talking about private medical insurance companies and lawyers...

<comment><USER5> You're throwing all sorts of wrenches into the gears of capitalism there. Defense spending isn't us taking money and burning it. It's the government buying things from private enterprise (largely American) and employing troops (also American). Same with regulating hospital purchasing procedures, which the market should regulate itself. You can't know what would happen if you stop that cash flow or force it to go somewhere else, but you can be pretty certain it won't be good.

It's clear we can do more to help the poor get health care. Taking money from the rich and our corporations and paying for it is not the easy solution that a lot of people like to daydream about.

<comment><USER7> Defense spending is the government taking money from everyone and reallocating it, just like any other government spending (and, of course, in many cases, it's a monopsony). You have to consider that a "wrench in the gears" just as much as health care, education or whatever else they spend money on.

One variety of universal health care that has been lauded by economists, even some towards the libertarian end of things, is that utilized in Singapore:

[http://www.american.com/archive/2008/may-june-magazine- conte...](http://www.american.com/archive/2008/may-june-magazine-contents/the- singapore-model)

Furthermore, to call the current model in the US 'free market' is probably inaccurate, as it's distorted in all kinds of ways, first and foremost because of the strong link between people's jobs and their health coverage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Yes, why don't we have the government promote our preferred group of people while penalizing the others? Let's help startup founders, and screw the large corporations!

We want it to be easy for us to fire people, but it should be hard for big companies.

We want other people to pay for our "safety net", to encourage more people to be like us.

Or, why don't we just play on a level playing field instead of legislating a blessed group of people? If starting a startup is really that great, then it should happen naturally, not by having other people pay for our success.

<comment><USER9> There are already massive, artificial advantages for large corporations. Large corporations can bring foreign talent in quite easily compared to startups, which must constantly battle for the right to keep their employees or founders in the country. We know this because it's our _#1_ distraction right now. Being poor? No problem! But we're not even allowed to legally be in the country without a job working for a company that's not our own.

Large corporations have access to the public markets and hundreds of other financing options. Startups need to rely on knowing friends, fools or family to fund initial efforts, and then perhaps squeeze into the insular silicon valley VC environment, if they can successfully justify a multimillion dollar investment. Furthermore, since IPOs are so incredibly painful now, M&A is the only exit for startup entrepreneurs, and so the practically only companies able to acquire others (and thus, hopefully, benefit down the line) are those already linked to the public markets, which are those which are already big.

Large corporations have the risk of making the wrong hires aggregated over thousands of people. Hire the wrong person in a large company, and maybe nobody will even notice. Hire the wrong person in the startup, and the entire company might be sunk.

Large corporations have the ability to massively lobby themselves to other large corporations or the government, encouraging massive kickbacks and corruption. The recent credit crunch bailout is an example of this.

The major disadvantage that large corporations have is that in many areas _they're not particularly suitable for creative work_. But this is a natural disadvantage. If society encouraged organizations more able to produce useful and novel work, our civilization as a whole would benefit.

<comment><USER8> > There are already massive, artificial advantages for large corporations.

And massive benefits for startups. The grass is always greener, of course, and people are most likely to see the advantages on the other side.

> Large corporations have access to the public markets and hundreds of other > financing options.

This isn't some benefit that's dolled out by a controlling group, like the government. This is because people are willing to invest money, because they are much more stable. Startups are incredibly risky, and most will fail. If you give a "benefit" to investing in startups so that more people invest, someone is losing somewhere. It's equivalent to a government expense, which must be made up elsewhere.

The fact is, startups have just as many financing options as everybody else: the group of people that are willing to give them money all factors included.

> Furthermore, since IPOs are so incredibly painful now, M&A is the only exit > for startup entrepreneurs

Incorrect. Startups don't have to exit, they have just as much ability to grow, become incredibly profitable, and turn into the larger companies, should they choose to do so.

> Large corporations have the risk of making the wrong hires aggregated over > thousands of people.

That would be correct if you assumed that the talent pool is made up of mostly smart people, except that it isn't. The talent pool is made up of mostly average or stupid people, with increasingly few really smart people. Hiring thousands of people just aggravates the risk and increases the chances that you will hire even _more_ poor talent (given that there is not an infinite pool of incredible talent).

> Large corporations have the ability to massively lobby themselves to other > large corporations or the government, encouraging massive kickbacks and > corruption.

Of course, isn't what this article is proposing another form of kickback? Why don't we just eliminate those all together?

> The major disadvantage that large corporations have is that in many areas > they're not particularly suitable for creative work.

And that they're incredibly hard to manage, tend towards slow, bureaucratic work, have an incredibly difficult time innovating, are placed under high scrutiny and regulation (esp post SarbOx), and the list goes on.

I, for one, don't envy the position of large corporations at all.

<comment><USER9> > This isn't some benefit dolled out by a controlling group...

The difference is that the government _actively prevents_ large classes of investments from being made, and the weight of this restriction falls most heavily on startups, which lack the institutional knowledge to navigate such obstacles.

> Startups don't have to exit...

True enough. However, look at it from the standpoint of a bargaining position. Acquiring companies have enormous leverage back they're able to offer people their first few million. If an IPO is easier, then it becomes a more attractive option. This might not affect you as an entrepreneur, personally, but it does affect the market for startups.

> That would be correct if you assumed that the talent pool...

True, but even the most acute startups are vulnerable to mistakes in hiring. And the average quality of hacker at Google or Amazon or Microsoft may even be higher than most startups. The difference in productivity might be accounted for by institutional baggage alone.

> Isn't what this article proposing another form of kickback?

I don't believe it is. A social safety net for everyone is quite different from, say, a multibillion dollar infusion into one industry in wall street, or massive pork-barrel public works projects later abandoned for political motives, or monopolistic support of contractors such as Halliburton, or corn subsidies, or our new reinvestment into Nuclear without a discussion involving wind power. It seems almost completely different.

Eliminating all kickbacks, if I understand the strong libertarian position correctly, includes eliminating things like fire departments. When some theory of values, however intuitively appealing, starts contradicting so powerfully what we have reason to think good, I call question to the theory.

> I, for one, don't envy the position of large corporations at all.

I either. But if startups are naturally more productive, then one should at least acknowledge the strong advantages given artificially to their bulkier cousins.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I have to say I strongly agree with this. The personal risks I am taking to start a company, are a little crazy, and I've had no shortage of people telling me so. And I know so many people who are waiting for their life to be settled and stable before they begin. This is one of the main social influences repressing our potential founders.

<comment><USER8> Risk is generally proportional to reward. If it was less risky to start a startup, the reward or chance of reward wouldn't be as great (more people doing it, less chance of succeeding or of an exit).

<comment><USER9> But this isn't axiomatic. Risk isn't always proportional to reward. Sometimes risk is just pointless risk. Risk can be just one of many factors in how valuable something might be to the world.

Furthermore, wealth isn't a zero sum game. It's possible that there's some limit to the number of conceivable successful companies in the social networking sphere, but there are a billion other things worth working on. As PG has pointed out, health alone is an like an infinite want.

<comment><USER8> Well, I should have said risk is correlated to reward. While wealth might not be a zero sum game, if 5x the number of startups existed that exist now, it would just be harder to be successful on average. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it's different than what is out there and probably a worse scenario for everybody that is willing to take the amount of risk required today.

<comment><USER9> I'm not so sure. In many respects it's been easier for us (in these first few months) _because_ of startup culture, which might not exist if we were five times fewer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> >While there's much less of a culture of entrepreneurship and only 15% of Europeans think about starting their own company, nearly all (14.7%) of them actually go ahead and do it.

I wonder what the average payoff is though. When the going gets tough, I can easily imagine that the reduced costs of failure cause more founders to bail out.

(This is ignoring that any comparison between the USA and Europe will probably have so much baggage attached as to be meaningless.)

<comment><USER11> The average entrepreneur makes less money starting a company then they would of getting a job at an existing company.

I wish people would stop quoting stats of ALL entrepreneurship and focus on industries. High tech start-ups are much different and 824 times more likely to be high growth then starting something like a restaurant.

But there's far more restaurants in those statistics people love to quote.

Read: Finding Fertile Ground or The Illusions of Entrepreneurship by Scott Shane to understand the reality of entrepreneurship and high tech companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I am conflicted on this issue. On the one hand, I believe in a situation where perseverance and risk taking is rewarded. On the other, it is true that many people with bright ideas do not go the startup route because they have family responsibilities or something similar that holds them back.

It's too simplistic to say that a social safety net will encourage entrepreneurship. It will probably enable more people to start up companies, esp in the tech sector, but it will equally lead to more deadwood entering the system.

</comment><comment><USER13> Beware, the social safety net can be a 2 edged sword.

Sure, more people would start small businesses.

But more people would give up earlier because the landing would be less painful.

The social safety net would decrease the importance of perseverance, one of the most critical ingredients of success.

<comment><USER14> I'm not sure I understand this argument. When startup founders bail out, they typically go and find a normal job instead. Why would a social safety net make this any easier?

<comment><USER15> Because not everyone is a smart and talented overachiever like you. Some of them just want to find themselves in a comfortable situation, with the least amount of work necessary.

When "normal" people bail out on a startup, they go find a regular job because _they have to_. If there was an option to just live at the other's expense, they'd just go on to do it.

Also, the 21% percent of people who say they would start a company, but don't, are probably more afraid of the possiblity of failure than unable to cope with the consequences.

<comment><USER16> To support your argument:

> A study by McKinsey Global estimated the true figure [of unemployed working- > age Swedes] —which included those on sick leave, in early retirement, in > jobs programs—to be between 15 and 17 percent. Jan Edling, a researcher with > the Social Democratic trade union LO, estimated the total figure of > unemployed to be 19.7 percent. (Edling's report was suppressed and he was > himself offered "early retirement.") The Confederation of Swedish Enterprise > said the figure was 16.5 percent. Other studies ranged from 12 percent to 18 > percent.

* <http://reason.com/blog/show/126884.html>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Since he brought up a number "European" policies, I felt qualified to say a few words on the subject myself, but it got sort of wordy, so I posted it here:

[http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/06/09/startups- gove...](http://journal.dedasys.com/articles/2008/06/09/startups-government- help-and-hindrance)

</comment><comment><USER17> One reason people pursue startups is to achieve so-called "FU money". A strong safety net gives everyone at least a minimal version of "FU money". So at the same time it makes risk-taking easier, it might remove a major incentive for risk-taking.

<comment><USER7> Barely getting by, but with decent health care might be ok for some people, but not for most.

<comment><USER8> Barely getting by without working, I think, is a much different version of "barely getting by".

<comment><USER7> In any case, it wouldn't work. How long would people tolerate a significant percentage of people just plain mooching off the state? I don't think that would work anywhere, Europe or US. Even in European countries that provide that kind of assistance, you're supposed to be at least looking for a job, or in training, or be seriously disabled enough that it's clear you wont' work productively.

<comment><USER17> Operative words: "supposed to".

Also, Aaron specifically uses the term "basic minimum income", and describes a scenario where "you could live off the government-provided income as you got things started."

This sounds like the welfare office becomes your infinitely patient investor. "Well, yes, I've been receiving assistance for 20 years straight, and I'm not disabled. But you see, I've been working on my startup all this time, and I think we're just about to turn the corner!"

<comment><USER7> "Supposed to" means they do have people in place whose job is to prevent fraud. It's surely not possible to prevent it entirely, but if you're just sitting around working on a startup, I think they'd probably catch on.

<comment><USER17> Given Aaron's example, such behavior isn't "fraud" anyone needs to "catch". Using the minimum income to help you work on a startup, no matter how silly or hopeless, is notabug, it's a feature.

<comment><USER7> I think that Aaron's idea is 1) unworkable, 2) politically unfeasible in the US, and 3) doesn't even reflect what countries like Sweden have in any case.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> A serious problem with this thesis is that in addition to making good profitable startups easier, a strong safety net makes many other competing activities easier, too.

One of those competing activities is: bad startups.

When we accept the premise that "promoting startups" is a good thing, we are assuming such startups are still a net social positive. In fact, that quality may depend on them failing-fast, attracting investment from greedy investors, and generating enough income in a competitive market to sustain the founders/employees.

With a strong safety net, it is easier to pursue a money-losing, wealth- destroying startup indefinitely -- really just a hobby masquerading as a startup.

A strong safety net also makes it easier to be a painter, or a musician, or a writer... even if there's no paying audience for your work. Perhaps some who do startups now would, with a bottomless safety net, prefer to sit in a cafe all day sipping coffee, blogging, and posting snarky comments about real startups. "That seems easier."

<comment><USER7> A "strong safety net", if done right (his minimum income suggestion is a bad idea in more than one way), doesn't mean people can just keep going forever. They can still fail, and fail fast, just that some of the "black swan" type risks with disproportionate downsides aren't a worry. Risk/reward calculations should be about looking at foregone opportunity costs (which are certainly significant for most capable hackers) rather than at "oh ####, my daughter needs an operation, and there's a problem with the insurance".

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> My biggest hold-back from forming a startup has been Health Insurance. The pre-existent condition clause will pretty much ensure that I can't get my own health insurance, and leaving my 15 month old without insurance is just unacceptable.

Once my wife gets out of Masters that will all change :).

Thought I must disagree with the universal health care point. The government can help regulate the way insurance companies operate vs give universal healthcare which by empirical evidence is failing in European countries.

Now my quick point on risk: You WILL fail (hence RISK) but sometimes you will succeed. All you need to ensure is that when you fail you can still have enough money to eat. Have a friend who didn't realize this point.</comment>


Sony to devs: If you drop below 60 fps in VR we will not certify your game - <AUTHOR> http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/17/11256142/sony-framerate-60fps-vr-certification <comment><USER2> YES!!!</comment>


4M Euros in 5 Days, with Elm and Drupal - <AUTHOR> https://www.gizra.com/content/million-euros-elm-drupal/ <comment><USER2> Amitai you really know how to tell a story. Doing this project together is a lot of fun even for a hindu cow... :)</comment>


MUMPS Instance - <AUTHOR> Hi Folks.   Looking for information on methods, tools, utilities, etc., that facilitate establishing and maintaining a secure baseline for MUMPS instances, e.g., static code analysis tools, syntax parsers/checkers, vulnerability scanners, etc.
Respectfully.
Fergie <comment><USER2> This is a great question. MUMPS traditionally have been a container type language with a self-contained instance where the data and programs are built into the container. The language requirements that math operations have to be exact to fifteen significant digits make it a good base for financial systems, and the flexible sparse data structures using multi-indexing by strings of characters allow it to be used in medical systems. Both of these types of applications require high availability and self-repair of faults, (effectively 24/7/365) with high response time.

Static code analysis is sometimes possible with the understanding that there are language elements that require lazy evaluation of expressions, and a dynamic symbol table of variables, as the language allows for explicit removal of variables from the symbol table.

Unusually for the syntax of a lot of languages this is a language where whitespace is significant, which makes syntax parsing and checking much more attainable.

As to vulnerability scanning and security, there is no language element which allows direct memory manipulation, such as the C pointer, and all I/O has protections against buffer overflows built into those commands. Passing parameters to subroutines has constraints that mitigate many security exploits as well. The language supports a high degree of backward compatibility and static semantics whereby old code works in the same way it always has, precluding an attack using changing semantics to take over a system.

The Department of Veterans Affairs has a toolset that facilitates code analysis (^XINDEX) and distribution of code and data (KIDS), with other programming environments providing other toolsets.

There is a lot more than this about the language. If you have any questions, I'd gladly answer them.</comment>


Facebook told by Belgian court to stop tracking non-users - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34765937 <comment><USER2> Good, I hope they'll pay as much money as it gets until this is removed. FB is a sleazy company by its core.

In other news, their FB Messenger app will scan the phones Camera roll for new photos, recognize faces and offer sharing to your friends it recognized. In certain regions only for now and of course it's opt-OUT by default [1].

[1] [http://9to5mac.com/2015/11/09/facebook-messenger-photo- magic...](http://9to5mac.com/2015/11/09/facebook-messenger-photo-magic-scans- friends/)</comment>


Women in Science - <AUTHOR> http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science <comment><USER3> As an actual woman in computing, who's not particularly interested in having kids and chose her career for practical reasons, I find this article (and many other articles and comments like it, written by men and relying on stereotypes and blatant assumption) to be offensive.

And before you tell me to grow a thicker skin: by calling this offensive, I don't intend to squash anyone's ability to speak. But I absolutely have the right to be pissed off when someone pretends to speak for me. It makes me lose respect for the person who thinks they can pontificate about someone else's experience and motivations.

<comment><USER4> I think the central argument is worth spending more time on: women have options that men don't.

Even in choosing colleges women have more and in many ways better options. An engineering school trying to attract females has to compete with about 50 all girls colleges across the country where the girls will be treated quite well for four years. Guys don't have that path available so it's easier to sell them on the idea of four-and-a-half to five difficult years to earn a four year degree.

<comment><USER3> That wasn't the central argument I perceived. Based on how the piece was introduced, I perceived an argument that biases (which have been demonstrated over and over in scientific studies) and hostile environment have less to do with gender ratios in STEM than <long list of stereotypes about values weakly linked to data that are related only if you make some major assumptions backed only by pop psychology>.

Maybe if instead of buying into traditional assumptions about gender roles we questioned them; maybe if we encouraged people to step outside traditional roles rather than spending our effort trying to insist their existence is justified; maybe then men would have more choices too (like being stay at home dads, for instance).

<comment><USER4> We have a very selective and one-sided conversation about traditional gender roles that generally hinges upon notions of male privilege and patriarchy. That's not very helpful when trying to understand why men are more likely to overwork and undervalue themselves since being privileged and overvalued (for their masculinity, of course) predicts they would do the opposite. (You can shoe-horn this into a feminist critique by saying the men who become scientists do so because they fail to meet their gender expectations, but the guys down in the coal mines or dying in wars are as manly as it gets, and they're also overworked and undervalued.)

I'm not just questioning traditional gender roles, I'm also questioning the feminist framework I used for years to understand those gender roles.

<comment><USER3> I realize this is a "no true Scotsman" argument, but... The feminism I was brought up in sees the limitations of male gender roles as the other face of the same coin. Women will never truly have equality of opportunity and expectation until traditional male gender roles and expectations are also dissolved - both because male gender roles can't exist without female gender roles and because women's opportunity in the workplace is limited by the need for their partners to take on more responsibility in the home. Unfortunately, this assertion often runs into accusations of attempts to "feminize" men.

<comment><USER4> It sounds like you don't care about male problems because they're inherently important to you, but they're just a stepping stone to fixing the real problems which are the female problems.

I see a lot of political will and capital devoted towards the few areas of society where women lag behind men: STEM, C-level/board positions, and being billionaires. But what about the areas where women are doing better than men, like education in general? What about the gender gaps of being a war casualty (90%+ male), dying at work (90%+ male) or being incarcerated (90%+ male)? Are these things really only worth dealing with because as a side effect women will have more opportunities in the workplace?

I agree that we need to be honest about gender roles and both their good and bad aspects. I disagree that feminism is leading the way.

<comment><USER3> I do care about men and I agree that those are problems that need to be fixed, but they're outside the scope of feminism. (Although one could argue that if certain flavors of feminism succeeded they would become much less lopsidedly male problems because a side effect would be that women would represent a higher percent of war casualties and job fatalities, but I'm not sure anyone would call that in itself progress.) Feminism isn't about fixing all the things that are wrong with the world, it's about fixing the problems that hold women back, which btw are not just about things like c-level board positions.

Women are less likely to get proper followup care after heart attacks, for instance, even though they experience them nearly as frequently as men. Sexual assault and rape still affect women at such a higher rate than men it's staggering. Women are also far more likely than men to experience crippling depression (how much of that is due to biological vs cultural factors is unknown), although men tend to be more successful at committing suicide. And the growing restrictions on abortion access WILL cause women's deaths just as they did before Roe v Wade.

There are other movements that address other problems with the world (pacifism, labor rights, and more). Being a feminist doesn't preclude also believing or participating in those movements. But just as sex trafficking is outside the scope of labor rights, improving safety precautions for dangerous jobs is outside the scope of feminism. Does that make sense?

<comment><USER4> > Sexual assault and rape still affect women at such a higher rate than men > it's staggering.

This depends on who you trust to gather the data and who is included in that data. I really don't want to have the rape/sexual assault discussion because it's never productive, but I will say that I'm not at all impressed with how feminism has handled the subject and that it's created barriers to male victims getting help and support.

There are no large scale movements that deal with specifically male problems. Men's Rights is trying but it's labeled 'hate speech' by feminists. If we're being honest there are no feminists in the Men's Rights movement, there are no feminists who give equal weight to men's problems in general because feminism is based on the idea that women's problems are more serious, more important and more urgent. That may have been reasonable in 1915 when women couldn't vote, in 2015 I'm not buying it, not even close.

Have you even looked at, for example, education numbers recently? Women get more degrees per field except for the hard STEM fields[0], women go to college more than men in general[1] and the individual group that needs the most help in education is a subset of males[2]. It's been since 1991 that women have been graduating college more than men[3]. But instead of dealing with the majority of the education system where men are doing worse than women, we constantly hear about the few areas where women aren't doing as well and we're told it's because of sexism, micro-aggressions, oppression, etc. and we all need to take a stand together _c 'mon we can do it!_

There's no effort to close the high school graduation gender gap, the college enrollment or graduation gaps, it's only where women are behind that changes need to be made. If we changed the numbers to what feminists want - <USER2> fields evenly split male-female - we wouldn't have equality in education, it would be female domination in education. It already is female domination in education, adding STEM would just make it worse.

[0] - [http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of- bachelor...](http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors- degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/) [1] - [http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens- colle...](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/03/06/womens-college- enrollment-gains-leave-men-behind/) [2] - [http://blackboysreport.org/national-summary/black-male- gradu...](http://blackboysreport.org/national-summary/black-male-graduation- rates) [3] - [http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap- in-...](http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2011/gender-gap-in- education.aspx)

<comment><USER3> I have a lot of trouble getting behind a men's rights movement that feels like an extremely bitter backlash. People claiming association with it have been behind some extremely frightening threats and intimidation towards women who dare to discuss bias and misogynistic online cultures. And it feels even more reactionary when no legitimate discussion can be had about the struggles women face without an attempted derail into "but men have problems too!"

<comment><USER4> What do you think this thread is? The author wrote an article looking at why men are more willing to be exploited by the academic system and the top comment, which is yours, is "but women have problems too!" You didn't even realize what the article was about, to you it was just another unenlightened man who was had offended you.

The central thesis of the piece is controversial but I think it's merits discussion. However when you show up and label it 'offensive' that discourages discourse and encourages the marginalization of the article's author and the article's points. It's a common feminist complaint that conversations about women's issues are derailed, but 1) you guys do it too and 2) I've found that the accusation is often just a quick way to silence dissenting opinions and to avoid engaging on points that don't fit the agenda.

I'm not asking you to get behind a men's rights movement, I'm not even part of it. I'm pointing out why men need it, or something similar to it. You can judge it by its worst members if you want but that's never been a good way to understand any group.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It doesn't have to be alimony - you can also remain happily married and live off the income of your spouse.

According to this googled article, 29% percent of mothers of children under 18 are stay at home mothers: [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/08/women-s...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/08/women- stay-at-home-mothers-work/7468163/)

Two thirds of them are supposedly married, so I guess the alimony case might be around 10 percent of all mothers.

<comment><USER6> [http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/106-children- in-...](http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/106-children-in-single- parent-families#detailed/1/any/false/36,868,867,133,38/any/429,430) says that about 35 percent of U.S. children live in single-parent families or 25 million children total. In any case, the fewer the number of women competing to collect child support from high-income men the higher will be the returns to that strategy and the more attractive it will be compared to working for wages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Honest question: So how's the architect biz? It seems like architect is one of those vaguely aspirational occupations (like lawyer) that could have gotten swamped in recent decades with folks such as Bill. People just looking for a good job, not necessarily on fire with passion for it. (Not that I'm saying you have to be full of passion for something in order to do it as a job - quite the contrary.)

</comment><comment><USER8> Wow, it was hard to look past all the offensive crap to get angry at all the logic holes. Let me see if I can keep this PG.

>age 22-30: graduate school, possibly with a bit of work, living on a stipend of $1800 per month >age 30-35: working as a post-doc for $30,000 to $35,000 per year

Actually the median total time to degree is far lower for STEM than it is for other fields. TTD in Physics and Astronomy is 7.0 years compared to 10.2 in the Humanities

[http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06312/nsf06312.pdf](http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06312/nsf06312.pdf)

>compensation for executives at public companies is reported every year.

Yes, becaues Forbes executive positions are SO much more open to women that academic scientific careers, it makes total sense to compare them.

>Consider taking the same high IQ and work ethic, going into business, and being put on the fast track at a company such as General Electric. Rather than being fired at age 44, this is about the time that she will be handed ever- larger divisions to operate, with ever-larger bonuses and stock options.

A tenured academic has the same chance of being fired as GE employee. Or it's just as easy to be a postdoc as a GE stock-option executive. Yeah right.

> At age 22, the schoolteacher is earning a living wage and can begin making > plans to get married and have children.

Because every woman aspires to have babies at 22.

> "I'm not sure if I'll be able to get any job at all.

Note that when a grad student says that, there is ALWAYS an implicit "... on what I would prefer doing".

Unemployment rate for Physics PhDs is just under 10% - this is rough the same for any occupation in the "professional" sector if you consider involuntary part-time workers (not many part time science jobs)

[http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/technology/t...](http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/technology/technology/2014/07/STEM_phd_charts/Spreadsheet_Physics.xls)

[http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat21.htm](http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat21.htm)

> A woman who is smart and organized enough to earn a PhD in science would > also likely be smart and organized enough to find a higher-income co-parent. > What is the profit potential when suing someone earning more than $250,000 > per year?

Yes, because (a) women use their career skills in finding husbands and (b) being a physicist and suing a rich ex for alimony are comparable choices - after all, why else would you be marrying? You have to be effing kidding me.

> The most serious concern is that the field that a youngster found > fascinating at age 20 will no longer be fascinating after 20 or 25 years.

Yes, because only scientists get bored with their careers. Every person who decided to do advertising sales on the other hand, is still having a blast.

> A lot more men than women choose to do seemingly irrational things such as > become petty criminals

Right, guys do science cause they are too dumb to know better. And people become petty criminals as a career choice. And don't forget women don't do anything as pointless as playing video games (I mean ha ha ha, next you're going to tell me that women PLAY videogames, imagine).

Look, the postdoc system ubiquitous in STEM _is_ exploitative. Every person working in science, man or woman, knows this. And it's a perverse outcome of a funding and success model based on citation rate.

But to say women don't go into science because they're too smart for that is the same as saying that African Americans don't go into IT because they too smart want to hang around geeks and carry a pager. It's insulting to everybody concerned and completely and utterly inaccurate.

<comment><USER9> The stuff about child support is actively gross and totally incorrect. Median child support in the US is ~$500/mo; vanishingly few people have the kind of money he's talking about.

[http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-246.pdf](http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-246.pdf)

<comment><USER6> That the average person who pursues a job is not very successful economically does not mean that the job is not worth pursuing for someone who is thoughtful and talented. As noted above, if the median child support is only $6000 tax- free dollars per year that suggests that high-income potential fathers are an underutilized resource.

[http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information- technology/c...](http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information- technology/computer-programmers.htm) shows that the median computer programmer gets paid $75,000 per year. That doesn't stop thoughtful and talented programmers from earning a lot more (though collusion by employers, e.g., Apple, has interfered with what would have been a market).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > If you are extremely introverted, you might prefer to work as a computer > programmer.

??? Really?

<comment><USER11> Yes.

Pose a simple question, get a simple answer.

What is so surprising about this assertion ?

<comment><USER10> I resent the implication. Programming != introverted activity.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Java 7 Features Backported to Android - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/yareally/Java7-on-Android

<comment><USER2> Since you have to read a long way through the FAQ to find out, here are the answers to the two most important questions I had:

       Q) So what works from Java 7?

       A) All the syntatic sugar stuff and also "try with resources." (see below)

       1) String Switches

       2) Try with resources (a.k.a "using/with", auto close)

       3) Multiple exception caught in one catch block

       4) Integer (and binary) literals for readability (e.g. 100_000_000 or 20_000 or 0b0111_0000)

       5) Type inference on collections (a.k.a. "diamonds")

       Q) What doesn't work?

       1) java.nio.*

       2) threading and multiple processor enhancements (fork/join)

       3) File change notifications (watch/notify file api stuff)

       4) invokedynamic

Its unfortunate that google haven't worked to bring more modern java language features to Android, although I imagine that the Android group has been kept rather busy with other things. Still, Google io is coming, with what is sure to be a slew of new product and feature announcements, so one can hope ...

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about burying the most important questions. I moved them to the top of the FAQ now :)

I really wish Google would just make amends with the Apache Foundation and work with them on improving OpenJDK. It would be so much better for both (and us developers) if they did.

All the unimplemented stuff falls under more than a weekend project and not sure how nice some of it would play with Android's APIs and Dalvik. The only thing I would really love to see outside of what was able to easily get working is Lambdas.

<comment><USER2> I was following the goings on between the ASF and Sun/Oracle a while back, but I was un-aware that ASF and google also had problems! What was the nature of their disagreement?

I think lambdas is the one killer feature I would love to see in Android/Java - particularly for a framework such as Androids which is so callback heavy, lambdas would be an immense help.

<comment><AUTHOR> I tried once more to get lambdas working, but at this point, I'm not sure if it's a bug in the JDK as it's still in beta or if it's Android.

Log though for anyone who's less tired and curious:

<https://gist.github.com/b0d095fbd1ccd4b28fe8>

<comment><USER3> Lambdas are in JDK 8 while Android supports JDK 6. This adds support for some of the features of JDK 7. That said, you could backport Lambda to JDK 6...

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm sure they can be. I'm just at a dead end for the evening and way past the time I should be programming (I was the submitter/author of the OP), thanks though for the encouragement :)

I was just going off the educated guess (without digging through the jdk8 source) that lambdas, like most other syntax features on Java, are just syntactical sugar that does not modify the underlying bytecode since jdk6 and so does not require significant code changes to get it working. Though of course I could be wrong, but I'll deal with that later on in the week.

<comment><USER3> JDK 8 implements lambda using features in JDK 7 like Invokedynamic. However, they could be implemented as syntactic sugar on top of anonymous inner classes — they just wouldn't be as efficient.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Nice work.

I am starting to think Google will leave Java language support at Java 6 level, or eventually offer full native support, instead of the half solution that the NDK currently offers.

Looking forward to this year's Google IO to see if there will be any change at that level.

<comment><USER5> It's not impossible for Google to work out a licensing deal with Oracle, but I'd just as soon expect them to come up with their own LLVM-based language implementation or announce LLVM support for one they've already developed, given that they added Clang (and thus, LLVM) support to NDKv8 in November 2012.

<comment><USER6> I'd love seeing decent support for Go on Android.

<comment><USER4> <http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=39482>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Well done!

On a related note - is using Scala also a viable option for android? Anybody tried?

<comment><USER5> Sort of. It has issues with ProGuard, but the Scala standard library is a couple of megabytes, so you'll be adding some size to your application, or you'll have to _very_ carefully test and configure.

Additionally, Dalvik didn't have JIT until late in its maturity, so besides the normal slowdown from Java->Scala, expect it to slow down further by the less-efficient VM.

It might be viable on newer devices, but it'll definitely have problems on older ones. Other than that, it does seem very feasible to write and deploy a Scala Android app.

<comment><USER8> There are pretty much no issues using Scala on Android. After running ProGuard, the Scala library takes up a few dozen kilobytes.

Execution is as fast as Java. I remember running my Scala app on one of the first tablets (Android 2.x) without issues.

The build system support is impressive and there is a whole community which focuses on Scala running on Android.

<comment><USER9> Have you built a substantial application using Scala on Android? Bump uses Scala, and they had to do a lot of messing with build processes, and they ended up using Java for performance in places as well. I can't find the talk right now, but here's the slides: [http://www.slideshare.net/michael.galpin/scala-on-android- ex...](http://www.slideshare.net/michael.galpin/scala-on-android-experiences- at-bump-technologies)

<comment><USER8> Facebook didn't use Scala and they managed do hit a lot of same issues, too, like this one: <http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=22586>

Anyway, the presentation is almost two years old now.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Phone to PC without rooting - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/andromium-the-next-evolution-computing-platform/dashboard

<comment><USER2> It's just a login page?

<comment><USER3> Yeah, the URL points to .../dashboard. This works: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/andromium- the...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/andromium-the-next- evolution-computing-platform/)</comment></comment>


Inverse graphing calculator - <AUTHOR> http://www.xamuel.com/inverse-graphing-calculator.php?phrase=Hello+HN

<comment><USER2> How about a copy-able version of the equations so that we can test them to see if they actually work?

<comment><USER3> Copy image location of the img gives you the equation in TeX.

Then you can use ToExpression[...] in Mathematica to try and graph it.

I haven't tried it myself, but I assume that should work.

[http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/Generating...](http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/GeneratingAndImportingTeX.html)

<comment><USER2> Hm, Wolfram|Alpha doesn't like that function, and I don't have access to a real instance of Mathematica...

<comment><USER4> Not so good.

First minor hurdle: Mma treats backslashes in strings as escapes. But even after doubling them all, I still get "Could not parse [BLAH] as Mathematica input". A bit of experimenting suggests that Mma doesn't like \cdot, so I removed those. I took out the explicit linebreaks at the same time.

Now Mma is able to parse the TeX. So far as I can tell from a quick glance, it's understood it OK. Unfortunately, I've had no success in getting it to plot it. RegionPlot[...==0...] produces nothing. ContourPlot[...==0,...] produces nothing. Without the ==0, unsurprisingly, no contour Mma chooses to draw looks at all appropriate. The trouble is that (1) the function is varying so damn fast in the relevant region and (2) those zero contours are all "valley-bottoms", and there's not much way for Mma to know they're there at all. Even giving unreasonably large values for WorkingPrecision,PlotPoints and MaxRecursion doesn't help, unless you consider running the Mathematica kernel out of memory "helping".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is clever. But surely, 'l' and 'o' should be simpler.

</comment><comment><USER6> Someone make a self printing equation.

It would totally make my day.

<comment><USER7> Here you go: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuppers_self- referential_formul...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuppers_self- referential_formula)

I hope your day _is made_ now :)

<comment><USER4> Nope. That's an arbitrary-thing-printing equation, controlled by a parameter that you have to set to a Very Large Number to make it display anything interesting. The Very Large Number is not part of what the formula displays. To get a genuinely self-displaying formula you'd need to throw in some Goedel/Quine tricksiness.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Very neat.

I'm guessing you have a function for each letter and you add a shift depending on where it is in the phrase? Or are you creating the formulas on the fly?

If its being created dynamically, you could probably find a cool way to do this for arbitrarily drawn pictures.

</comment><comment><USER9> Why does every "string" end in (y^2 - 6y +8 + sqrt(y^4 - 12y^3 + 52y^2 - 96y + 64))^2 ?!?

<comment><USER10> It's a rather complicated way to ensure that all points have y coordinate between 2 and 4, thus cutting all lines that would extend out of the "writable" two squares.

That expression equals zero if and only if 2<=y<=4.

(edit) If you try "L", the formula contains a product member (x-2) that would produce a vertical line whose points all have x=2, containing the vertical segment of "L". The final string excludes that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> how about an "inverse" graphing calc that takes an arbitrary line drawing and gives me a "nice-looking" equation and not just the vectorized representation?

</comment><comment><USER12> Great now I can just generate the equations for "suck my cock" and put them on a t-shirt. And then I will be insulting everyone I meet without them even knowing.</comment>