Is it possible to write c...r in lisp, for any combination of letters a and d? - <AUTHOR>

Hello, lispers!<p>Is it posible to write macro (or something) in lisp, such that any 'call' which has shape like (caddaddr x) automatically expands into (car (cdr (cdr (car (cdr (cdr x)))))) Naturally, this should work for any possible combination of letters a and d. Is that possible? <comment><USER2> All reasonably effective ways of doing this involve hacking ugly special case into compiler and evaluator. But as purely academic exercise this can be done (for common lisp) by handling undefined-function condition and invoking appropriate restart (which is unfortunately implementation-specific).

<comment><USER3> Why? I already wrote the stub code for this in another reply. He just needs a define-deconstructor macro. Any C[A|D]+R function that isn't already defined by CL can be defined as a macro.

[Edit:

I see that he said _any_ call .. well, he will have to define the function before hand before he calls it. That's just common sense.

Apologies dfox.]

</comment></comment><comment><USER3>
      (defun charfn (char)
        "maps a character to a function"
        (case char
          ((or #\A #\a) #'car)
          ((or #\D #\d) #'cdr)
          (t (error "unknown character-function type ~a" char))))

      (defun fn-list (decon-name)
        (mapcar #'charfn (butlast (rest (coerce (symbol-name decon-name) 'list)))))

;;; syntax

      (defmacro defdecon (fn-name)
        `(defun ,fn-name (args)
           (funcall (arnesi:compose ,@(fn-list fn-name)) args)))

;;; play with it

;; test cases

      (funcall (arnesi:compose 'car) (list 1 2 3)) => 1

      (funcall (arnesi:compose 'caar) (list (list 1) 2 3)) => 1

;; the base works, let's test the syntax; NB, redefining a builtin will not work

      (defdecon caaaaar)   ; define first

      (caaaaar (list (list (list (list (list 1 #\c) #\b) #\a) 2) 3))  ==> 1

:-)

just off the top of my head in 8 minutes.

make it to a reader macro if you so wish.

[Edit:

cat >> nfs://cltl3.alu.org/todo.txt

* CASE with custom tests

* COMP^H^H^H^HArnesi FFS!

]

</comment><comment><USER4> If I recall correctly, UTLISP on the CDC-6600 did this up to six levels. UTLISP stored 3 18-bit pointers in a 60 bit word, plus flag bits. The three pointers were called the CAR, CDR and CSR. CONS only took two arguments, but you could set the CDR using RPLACS (analogous to RPLACA and RPLACD). All 729 functions C[ADS]{1,6}R were available, but not by having 729 actual function definitions, which would have been a significant waste of address space and core in those days. The undefined function handler would check the name of the function being called and construct the definition on the fly for interpreted code, while the compiler would do something similar during compilation. This trick dates back to the 1970s or possibly even the late 60s. I think it was also used in other early Lisp implementations.

</comment><comment><USER5> I could write a function that automatically defines functions of the form you want, but it would have to define them one at a time. The problem is that it could only define a finite number of functions.

It's pretty straightforward to do what you want by writing a reader macro, but then you have to prefix your sexp with some special macro character.

If the prefix is a deal breaker there _may_ be some deep read-macro voodoo that could do what you want but, but before doing research, I have to ask the obvious question: "Why?".

Incidentally, pg's On Lisp has a decent intro to reader macros (<http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp_18.html>)

<comment><AUTHOR> Why? Paul Graham says that "Programming languages teach us not to want what they cannot provide". I'm just curious if this is the case with lisp and c[a|d]+r

<comment><USER3> No it's not. If there is anything Lisp provides out of the box, it's support for non-builtin language features. A friken paradox, enjoy it! :-)

<comment><USER6> So far there's only one solution: "this can be done (for common lisp) by handling undefined-function condition and invoking appropriate restart (which is unfortunately implementation-specific)."

Which makes it sound like there is in fact no way to do this in standard CL, to say nothing of other lisps.

Untested perl code to do this (taking a cons to be a [car, cdr] array reference):

        AUTOLOAD {
            unless ($AUTOLOAD =~ m/::c([ad]{1,})r$/) {
                die "Attempted to call undefined function $AUTOLOAD";
            }
            my $ads = $1;
            my $cons = shift;

            while (my $c = chop $ads) {
                $cons = $cons->[$c eq 'a' ? 0 : 1];
            }
            return $cons;
        }

Example of a situation this feature might be useful: "I have this object with lots of properties which I don't necessarily know what they are. How do I define getter/setter methods on them?"

<comment><USER7> More appropriately, there's no standard way to do this with CL. One might ask the same about threads. What are threads? We just don't know.

<comment><USER3> What do you mean there is no standard way to do this? There is a MetaObject Protocol which is supported by most platforms, and for those that don't have it, there is the widely portable CloserMOP.

Threads are not "standard" but the last thread-less Common Lisp just got them this month. Every maintained Common Lisp implementation today has Threads; and all support Bordeaux-Threads.

Show me a single mainstream language where threads are "standardized" other than Java?

<comment><USER7> You're over-thinking this. My comment was a response to the idea that every lisp can that but there's no single standard.

My awkward phrasing was a reference to about 1:53 in this: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCWA7uevo_Q>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Here it is in Ruby.

      LISP_METH = /^c[ad]+r$/

      def method_missing(name, *args)
        meth = name.to_s
        raise NoMethodError, "undefined method '#{name}'" unless meth =~ LISP_METH
        list  = args.first
        calls = meth.split('')[1..-2].reverse
        calls.each {|call| list = (call == 'a' ? list.first : list[1..-1]) }
        list
      end

      cadr [1,2,3]
      # => 2

      caaddddr [1,2,3,4,[9,8,7]]
      # => 9

      cadadr [1,[9,[100],8,7],3,4]
      # => 100

</comment><comment><USER9> In Clojure: possible but ugly. Use destructuring in production instead.

      (defn make-xrs [n]
        (if (= n 0) {"ar" first, "dr" rest}
    	(let [last (make-xrs (dec n))]
    	  (into last (for [[name fun] last [name2 fun2] {"d" rest "a" first}]
    		       [(str name2 name) (comp fun2 fun)])))))

      (for [[name fun] (make-xrs 10)]
        (eval `(def ~(symbol (str "c" name)) ~fun)))

<comment><USER6> That lets you write c[ad]{1,10}r, or c[ad]{1,n}r with O(2^n) initialisation time. OP wanted to be able to write c[ad]+r.

Also, that eval could be replaced with (untested)

        (intern *ns* (symbol (str "c" name)) fun)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> quick and dirty; i'm not even sure it is correct:

(defmacro blah (arg body) (with-input-from-string (stream (reverse (string arg))) (dolist (char (loop :for char = (read-char stream nil) :while (and char (or (char= char #\A) (char= char #\D) (error "BLAH: Only A or D is accepted."))) :collect char)) (case char (#\A (setf body `(car ,body))) (#\D (setf body `(cdr ,body))))) body))

CL-USER> (let ((data '((42)))) (blah aa data)) 42 CL-USER>

..manipulate the reader using read-macros (see TCR's new named-readtables library) if you want anything fancier. check out this btw.; [http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d2425c92ce...](http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d2425c92cef7465c)

edit: the web still doesn't work as i want it to work .. i'm not going to bother fixing the whitespace etc. here</comment>


Meal timing strategies appear to lower appetite, improve fat burning - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190724103702.htm <comment><USER2> I'll add one more anecdote to the mix here. Been doing intermittent fasting and extended fasting since February and I'm down 75 pounds in that time.

I used to snore like crazy, probably had sleep apnea but was too afraid to go get tested since my grandmother died from becoming dependent on the machine and her lungs failed. Now I don't snore at all. My wife sleeps better, I sleep better; win win!

I haven't exercised at all and I don't count calories. My biggest diet changes have been cutting out soda entirely and I try to keep my carbs under 100g a day. Many days I'm under 50.

It's honestly been amazing and I'm glad that I did it now while I'm still young and will be able to physically play with my kids in the future.

One of the other big wins has been physiological and my relationship with food and the feeling of hunger. Living in America, and especially here in the south, food is a religion. Stopping whatever is going on to eat is never looked down on. Snacks all the time, large comfort food meals, etc. While the community aspects around food are a good thing, our dependence on it as a society has crossed over into causing more harm than help.

After starting to fast, I've learned that hunger is just another feeling, like being too hot or too cold. Sure, it can be uncomfortable, but it won't kill you and we can tolerate it a lot longer than we think.

Right now, I'm in the middle of a 7 day fast where I'm only drinking water. Every week I normally fast 48 hours twice a week and then one meal a day for the other 5 days in the week. My relationship with food has morphed and now I'm totally in control of my body. Skipping a meal is no problem and I have no ill side effects.

I'll wrap this up by saying that I still enjoy food, a lot! When I do eat for my one meal a day, I can easily eat a large salad and a burger and a side. My favorite pastime is going to the movies and eating a meal and a large bucket of popcorn with my wife. Some days though, I eat a "normal" portion and call it good. Sometimes I have dessert. The difference is now that I can manage my love of food in a sustainable way for my body.

Happy to answer any questions. AMA.

<comment><USER3> > hunger is just another feeling

Exactly! I've done intermittent fasting for many many years, it works for me. I've told people, "You know how a workout 'hurts so good'? Learn to think that way about hunger/cravings. Consider it the same way you would consider a workout pain, as progress not punishment".

<comment><USER4> This can work for people who don't really need a lot of weight loss. Obese people are too deeply conditioned, their brains are wired differently and their bodies probably not responding on the hormonal level the same way as yours. To them it's a bit like suggesting a drug addict to just enjoy the withdrawal crisis. According to this research: "a substantial fraction of obese individuals exhibit an imbalance between an enhanced sensitivity of the reward circuitry to conditioned stimuli linked to energy-dense food and impaired function of the executive control circuitry that weakens inhibitory control over appetitive behaviors" [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124340/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124340/)

<comment><USER5> I guess. I'm a big dude, and I find it _a lot_ easier to fast than to eat carefully on a more typical schedule. Part of it is definitely just acclimating to the sensation of food cravings (and also learning to distinguish that feeling from "hunger"), but also, if I don't eat regularly, I tend not to crave food in the first place. I can pretty sustainably stay on an 18 hour fast schedule without breaking.

<comment><USER6> Given that you're a "big dude" (aka overweight?) I assume you are that way by choice given your comments about how you can control your appetite?

I'm a bit of a fat bastard myself and I think what I've come to realise is that for a huge segment of the population eating just works fine and they can adjust diet to tweak this or that relatively easily. For the rest (like me), my relationship with food is broken and stuff like IF or keto or whatever are patches to deal with that underlying brokenness. It always works for a while, but it always go to shit eventually.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is strictly anecdotal, and I would honestly love to see this subjected to a rigorous study, but I lost twenty pounds without additional exercise or dietary changes in the last six months just by having a sleep study done, getting diagnosed with sleep apnea, and being put on a CPAP machine.

How much obesity and depression could be prevented or alleviated just by making sure people could get a decent night's sleep?

<comment><USER8> Are you sure your diet did not change? Even your portions stayed the same size?

<comment><USER9> Can't speak for OP, but my appetite and then weight have steadily decreased for six years since beginning CPAP. As a person with apnea I had no idea that my constant fatigue was causing me to eat so much, or making sustained exercise so impossible, and I really didn't even understand how tired I was. Once I was getting something approximating a good night's sleep, I had more energy, which made me less hungry and more able to sustain exercise. So it was a virtuous cycle and involved the habits you're describing, but those were made possible by alleviating the underlying problem.

<comment><USER10> How did you get diagnosed?

<comment><USER9> Did an overnight study at a sleep clinic. I'd been told for years by friends that I made very weird gasping, snoring noises. After I'd been out of college a few years and realized I was fatigued literally every day despite going to sleep on time, I figured it was time to get checked.

<comment><USER10> Were you also sleepy during the day? Did you nap for hours as well?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > For the study, researchers enrolled 11 adult men and women who had excess > weight.

It's amazing how low our standard for news is when it comes to things like weight loss.

<comment><USER12> Depending on the size of the effect, 11 participants can be very valid in an experiment. For example, assume you have 11 participants having a hormone measured after an experiment. If normal readings are 300 with a SD of 30, and at the end of the experiment their mean is 520 with a SD of 40, then you've just shown a strong, significant effect.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, except it usually would be (in the best case scenario) more like "520 with a SD of 40" for 10 people and "1 outlier", which you wouldn't really be able to properly conceptualize let alone explain, since your "outlier" is freaking 10% of the group.

That is, ignoring the fact that experiments without a control group can be hardly considered valid at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> To add my strictly anecdotal experience:

I recently started to diet for the first time ever. Never really needed it, but getting older, I noticed my weight steadily increasing despite regular exercise and finally decided to change.

I always skipped breakfast, but I became a bit more strict about timing and snacking at night in order to align with IF. Switched my diet to a lazy keto (basically adkins) diet - still don't track calories, just intentionally reduced carb intake to below ~25g net per day and increased fat intake. Occasionally I have a cheat meal.

Down 35lbs in ~2.5 months.

Side effects: I feel like my energy levels are much more consistent throughout the day, but also very discernable. Which is to say, if I'm working out, I can really feel it when I run out of gas. Related, I can't lift as much weight as I could, but that is expected while I'm actively trying to lose weight. I feel like there's a bit more mental clarity, but that could be related to energy levels.

<comment><USER15> Another anecdotal experience: IF really makes you aware of how your appetite gets going after the first meal. I usually start eating around noon and its like flipping a switch, before hand you just feel kinda numb but afterwards your brain cannot stop thinking about eating.

<comment><USER16> How carb-heavy is your diet? That could be the transition from your body using fat/ketones for fuel to using glucose for energy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I would recommend David Sinclair and Jason Fung in terms of resources for this to understand first why intermittent fasting is good for you but of course appropriately applied for the individual. If you start to understand the whys and stop listening to specific people's testimonials or crazy routines in some cases (from your perspective), you'll tailor it appropriately to your life if its something you want to do. Personally, I found it quite easy to incorporate and with great benefit.

</comment><comment><USER18> Interesting read! It's also worth noting that circadian rhythm based eating habits (i.e. timing meals in the morning, or at least the bulk of one's caloric intake earlier in the day), are important for more than just weight loss. They reduce levels of inflammation in the body, improve insulin response, improve glucose tolerance, the list goes on and on. Humans evolved to eat when they are at peak-awareness/wakefulness: in the morning/early-day. If one's trying to optimize for peak performance/health/longevity, they should in the AM rather than PM.

Personally I only eat one meal a day, stopping all calorie consumption by 11am. I'm in the 2nd day of a 3 day fast; it's definitely an exercise in discipline, but so worth doing. Fasting's stress on the body invokes a "survival of the fittest" response on the cellular level; in which under performing cells are cleaned out. Some news out of USC has stated that a 72 hour fast leads to an "entire reset of your immune system" [0]. Pretty interesting stuff for health-conscientious folks.

[0] [https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell- regene...](https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration- of-damaged-old-immune-system/)

</comment><comment><USER19> Since everyone is chiming in with anecdotal weight loss experiences via faddish diets, I'll chime in with mine following "conventional" diet wisdom.

40 years old, 170 lbs down to 135 lbs, slow and steady just by eating a conventionally healthy low fat diet and adhering to CICO.

No wacky meal timings. No eating/avoiding an entire macronutrient to excess. Most calories came from whole grains, whey, and fish, and I made sure my belly was full most of the time with vegetables.

I drank wine nearly every day, and popped a square of Dove chocolate for dessert most meals. I even ate fast food a couple times a month.

Hunger pains and exhausting days in the gym? You bet. But it wasn't difficult, and I still got to eat my favorite foods - just less of them.

CICO works. Studies like this are interesting, but almost certainly just tweaking the margins for most people.

<comment><USER20> CICO works certainly, but the advantage of IF is that it makes adherence to CICO easier. You're effectively cutting ingestion opportunities to 1/3 of what they normally are. It's hard to eat 2/3 of your calories in ouch a short time frame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> One observation from personal experience with prolonged intermittent fasting: My metabolism slowed down quite a lot. After nearly 10 years of eating once per day, my resting metabolic rate was 3-400 calories lower than average. Whether that's a bad thing or not, I have no idea. My grocery bills were certainly low. And it saved a ton of time on meal prep.

More recently, I became too physically active to maintain that diet and returned to eating 3-4x a day. My metabolism has steadily returned to baseline since then. It took about 6 months but it is now essentially back to normal.

</comment><comment><USER22> I tried IF for a while. I lost a couple pounds and then plateaued. What I realized is that the main thing it was doing was preventing me from snacking at night. I didn't really eat any more than normal during the eating period, I just didn't eat my usual outside of it. So exactly in line with the study. It just didn't do much for me weight-loss-wise.

I was already skipping breakfast most days, so waiting until lunch to eat wasn't a big deal. But _Stopping_ at 8pm was tough. I'm usually up until 1-2am, so not eating for the last five or six hours of my day was tough.

<comment><USER23> Could you tell me what IF means please?

<comment><USER24> From some of the other comments my guess is that it means Intermittent Fasting

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermittent_fasting)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Here is very useful data as to food consumption patterns. Nowadays we ruin our body with unnatural eating cycles.

Basically fasting for around 16 hours a day is good for health. From the evolutionary perspective--that invested in a human body 200K years--the way we eat today is broken. And our body can't adapt to a new pattern--evolution is a slow process that requires many thousands of years. Not to mention like adapting to changes in a food consumption we see in the last 50 years. A human body during 200K years of evolution was not prepared to eating a lot. Viceversa--it was build to eat less. It needs to store energy and to use stored energy and only after that to store again. That's a natural cycle and functions that our body needs to execute. Nowadays we just store energy 24/7:

"Emerging findings from studies of animal models and human subjects suggest that intermittent energy restriction periods of as little as 16 h can improve health indicators and counteract disease processes. The mechanisms involve a metabolic shift to fat metabolism and ketone production, and stimulation of adaptive cellular stress responses that prevent and repair molecular damage."

Article: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4250148/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4250148/)

Here are also interesting patterns of daily and weekly food consumption from this research including the common eating pattern of food consumption upon which the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and associated chronic diseases has emerged.

Image: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4250148/figure/...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4250148/figure/fig03/)

</comment><comment><USER26> I've never understood the tradition of eating 3 meals a day. Sounds like it comes from religion.

If you eat when you're hungry, you will naturally eat less. I always have a good breakfast, and thus start to feel hungry around 3pm or 4pm. I eat then, and usually I don't feel hungry until I go to bed, and I never eat late in the day, simply because digesting at night is a bad idea.

Having lunch around noon is weird because I eat without being hungry.

<comment><USER27> I'm assuming you work a desk job. Your energy and appetite fluctuations wouldn't be the same if you had a physically strenuous job.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Extended waterfasting is amazing folks. It's the simplest way to A) lose weight B) improve your metabolism C) increase your longevity D) help with various problems (like acne, hemorrhoids, etc). Warning: May not be safe for those with a BMI lower than 20.

Fasting gives the chance for the body to engage in autophagy which is the breakdown of old or broken cells into their components and reused to repair the body. Fasting takes you to a state of ketosis, where your body switches to fat-burning for fuel. Note that it takes 2 weeks for the muscles to fully adapt to using fuel as the source, so athletic performance will decline for that period.

Depending on how fat-adapted you are, it can take anywhere from 3 to 5 days to get past the point of hunger & cravings. It becomes much easier to maintain the fast after that. That means for most people, day 2 or day 3 are the hardest days in the transition.

Warning: if you stop at the hard point of the fast after multiple attempts, it will get progressively harder to stick to it and get through (as that will train the body's hormone for cravings to peak at that time).

<comment><USER29> Extended waterfasting is dangerous. If you're going to go more than 3 days on even a sub-1000Cal/day diet, please have medical supervision.

<comment><USER30> [citation needed]

<comment><USER29> Ingesting nothing but water for days on end being unhealthy really shouldn't need a citation, but if you really want one, go ask your local doctor.

<comment><USER30> Having done a >20-day fast myself, multiple times, knowing a few others who have, researching the medical evidence AND discussing this with more than one local doctor, I can confidently say:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

<comment><USER29> That's funny, because I've talked with doctors who oversee medically-managed weight loss programs professionally, and they made it very clear that even just doing 960Cal/day for 3+ days warranted medical supervision. This is also why stuff like Optifast requires a prescription, because it's not safe to do this kind of thing without oversight.

The fact that you've done it really has no bearing on whether it's actually healthy, and I'm going to go ahead and assume that the doctors you spoke to said the equivalent of "it won't kill you but I don't recommend it".

<comment><USER30> Well, the doctors you asked had a vested interest, they are unlikely to say "we are mostly useless", so I can just as easily discard that. See how easy it is to maintain one's belief without evidence?

There is actually a lot of evidence saying anything up to about 40 days on water is fine for a healthy person, although beyond 50 days there is rapid and irreversible damage.

There are whole populations who used to live on 800kcal/days for years.

And for the record, my family doctor's reply was "just make sure you start eating if you feel any ill effects, don't go more than a month" - when I came to see him after about a week inquiring if my loss of appetite was something I should be worried about (because thinking and looking at food made me NOT want it, but I was feeling perfect - even better than perfect).

From your response you are likely uninterested, but reading the work of Valter Longo on fasting would probably enrich you.

Also, there's a huge difference between reducing intake (to e.g. 900 of 500 kcal) which leaves most people hungry and irritated, and going down to essentially zero, which - past the 50 hour mark or so - does not. The doctors you consulted likely have no experience at all with the latter regime in which the body functions completely differently, and which seems like a natural "can't find food right now" mode.

<comment><USER29> > _Well, the doctors you asked had a vested interest, they are unlikely to say > "we are mostly useless", so I can just as easily discard that. See how easy > it is to maintain one's belief without evidence?_

No, the doctor does not have a vested interest in lying to me. They're HMO doctors, this is but one facet of their job, and they're doing it because it needs medical oversight. Hell, the program itself was offered effectively at cost (it's in the HMO's interest to have healthy patients, so they charge just enough for the program to cover their expenses rather than treating it as a profit center).

In a perfectly healthy person, extended fasting is probably fine. Medical supervision isn't because it's particularly dangerous for perfectly healthy people, but because nobody is perfectly healthy and complications can arise with pre-existing undiagnosed conditions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I've also had weight loss success with IF. I do 16/8 mostly with the occastional 24 hour fast. I get a lot of pushback that it's 'bro science', and a lot of claims around improving insulin resistance isn't proven, so it's good to get some science behind the practice that clearly works.

The reason I have found it effective is that it's simple to follow. I don't need to count calories, I don't have to learn too much at all, I simply don't eat outside of my hours. Given I've now found I don't feel hungry most days until I start eating, it means I eat less.

Now the net result may simply be less calories, that that's not as simple as 'calories in calories out', because I'm consuming less as a consequence of the timing, not by consciously eating less. This may be an odd distinction for people who can diet, but for those of us who struggle with weight, it's crucial to success.

</comment><comment><USER32> 11 adults in the experiment. No control group (other than against themselves). Experiment ran 8 days.

I mean, I'm interested, but I want to see further research before I call this a real result.

<comment><USER33> I always appreciate how the HN crowd evaluates the quality of the evidence, not just the quality of the headline. Great filtering function.

<comment><USER34> There's usually one good post. The rest are almost always people sharing their diet stories. Or if the headline is about exercise, you get reams of stronglifts or 5x5 or whatever, nobody cares. It's what engineers tend to do when they're presented with a topic they don't have actual expertise in.

<comment><USER35> Is this specific to engineers? I noticed this in college classes across disciplines. A lot of the time that someone raised their hand, it was to share an anecdote and not a question.

<comment><USER36> I find it honestly surprising that I see it so much on HN. You have a group of people who largely identify themselves as being rational, objective, intelligent people - datascientists, engineers, etc. - who stereotypically I would think to be naturally sceptical and want to examine evidence closely.

But it's absolutely true, the minute some scientific study is posted there are 50 people writing comments that they believe it because yesterday something similar happened to their aunt etc. It's something I've never quite figured out.

<comment><USER37> It's because HN users aren't really that intelligent; they just give off that impression instead. We're all mostly normal people here, and act like normal people. This isn't some special club of 1000x geniuses.

<comment><USER38> Even if this is true, each of us has a moral obligation to believe the very opposite re: ourselves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Just another anecdote, and I haven't done this for too long, but I've found that adopting the rule that I don't eat past 7pm has helped me sleep better, and maybe even lose a little weight. I found myself eating more earlier in the day so that I wouldn't be hungry later, but that didn't seem to change the benefits.

The hardest bit is that it can be pretty hard to get an evening meal in before 7 (we do try to cook), and if its after, I pack the dinner for the next day's lunch and sit down with the fam to chat while they eat.

</comment><comment><USER40> Here's a weight loss tip I've used with some degree of success: exercise portion control by using smaller dinner plates at home _and_ chew the food on the plate longer (like 30s). The rationale is that the sensation of feeling full takes about 20 minutes to kick in and so by practicing the above you end up eating less over time and as a result lose weight. There is also a possibility your body will make better use of the food this way as there are enzymes in your mouth that help with digestion.

</comment><comment><USER41> With intermitent fasting 16/8 and weight lifting 3x a week, you can get fit and look amazing in a just a couple if months. Just try it, it works!

</comment><comment><USER42> "OMAD" (one meal a day) here. It's been 5 months. Most days, I eat lunch. And that's it, no real calorie consumption outside of that window. Not hungry, not tired, not cranky, not suffering, more free time, actually eating better (having one meal of pure crap in front of you is a clarifying moment), and losing weight at a moderate clip. YMMV, IANAD, etc.

</comment><comment><USER43> I'm not necessarily discounting the results however I found it odd that the primary source didn't state the sample size (or maybe I missed it)? [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22518](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22518)

<comment><USER44> You missed it, right in the abstract :-)

> Methods

> Eleven adults with overweight practiced both early time‐restricted feeding > (eTRF) (eating from 8 am to 2 pm) and a control schedule (eating from 8 am > to 8 pm) for 4 days each.

<comment><USER43> Oh did I - whoops!

That quote doesn't give the sample size (number of people studied and in each group) though?

<comment><USER45> I think it was a cross over study. Or everyone went control for 4 days and study protocol for next 4.

<comment><USER43> Hmm. Yeah just if it was like 30 (or even like 100) it's not exactly overly valuable other than an initial indicator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I like this example of explaining a scientific term to the lay people:

"a respiratory chamber -- a room-like device --"

</comment><comment><USER47> I'll often go 3-5 days where I only eat small quantities of fruits, vegetables, and nuts, operating in very much a calorie deficit. This has been a thing for years, and when I'm in this mode I don't really have much craving for food, it's kind of surprising to me. Energy levels are fine, I'm generally pretty physically active, it just seems normal and I enjoy the lightness.

It's not a lack of appetite though, if I decide to pursue a large meal in this condition, my enthusiasm is high and I'll eat enough food to feed a family of four if I let it happen.

But I've noticed if I instead eat more processed foods, especially refined carbohydrates, while trying to exist in this calorie deficit state similarly to my fruits/veggies/nuts mode, I'm miserable, irritable, and constantly craving more food. And it's not some mild craving, it's like craving an addictive drug.

I hadn't considered if timing played any significant part in these experiences, what seems very obviously significant was the types of food.

</comment><comment><USER48> Some of the best info on this can be found in the book, The Obesity Code by Dr. Jason Fung.

Also, here's a short video by him: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN- Fk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk)

</comment><comment><USER49> I eat one big meal per day, sometimes fasting once or two times a month and I definitely have a lower appetite with slim body aesthetics. I didn't crave food once my body adjusted to one daily meal for the timeframe of about a month passing. Realistically I don't do much activity and I assume a bodybuilder wouldn't be able to do one meal per day.

I hypothesize the weight of a person, factors from "the mealtime" to the "time of sleep" and for storage of calories compared to used calories.

Similar, I hypothesize the timeframe from meal to meal factors into the storage of calories compared to used calories.

Furthermore, I hypothesize the individual metabolism of the person factors from the development years by the childhood to adulthood corresponding to the active lifestyle of the individual.

Lastly, I hypothesize the individual metabolism of the person factors from the composition of the gut bacteria. (Fasting could help reset the gut bacteria to a healthy state)

</comment><comment><USER50> What about 1 to 3 meals starting at 2pm to 5pm for 6 hours? I'd be interested to know how that compares. It seems without that data, it's not possible to conclude at all that eating earlier in the day is better than later.

</comment><comment><USER51> Skipping meals is a migraine trigger for me. This makes IF a lot less viable...

</comment><comment><USER52> We really have figured out health for the majority of people and even people on the fringes have enough options close enough to them to make it possible.

If you dont live next to a grocery store this is a good thing. Because you get to exercise and get fresh food every day.

If we could cure lack of discipline and laziness then we would be good. But we cant (challenge placed) and there will always be people that are looking for a trick rather than putting in the work to be healthy.

When watching Game of Thrones is more important than your health (exercising) then health is not something you get to have. Its not a mystery.

Articles like these suggest you can be healthy without being active. This is false (challenge placed).

</comment><comment><USER53> So the vegetarian keto diet with intermittent fasting is the ultimate solution. But a hard one. Still met a plateu after 6 months, even essentially living on salads.

</comment><comment><USER54> I've been running on IF for at least a decade. Can only eat twice a day. If i try to have breakfast, I don't feel hungry for the rest of the day and have to skip lunch. People in comments mention plateau effect, but this is kind of the point - my weight is stable for years on easy mode and I only have to correct and tweak it slightly +/\- a few pounds from time to time.

</comment><comment><USER55> How am I going to prevent myself from eating after 2 or 3 PM?

<comment><USER56> The same way you adhere to any other diet plan-you excercise conscious control over your behavior. If you can't cross that hurdle, no diet will work. If you can cross that hurdle, though, you probably don't need a diet plan-calories are printed on most food packages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> I've lost 80 lbs from peak and kept it off for > 15 years without trying. Never gained more than 5 lbs since losing the weight. I've never dieted or restricted my diet. I eat when I have a desire to eat. I eat so called junk food and bad food (butter, olive oil, bacon, meat, fatty nuts, whole milk/half-half) daily. I generally avoid high sugar dishes and rarely drink soda but that's due to taste.

In my experience the goal is to align your unconscious desire for food with your bodies daily need.

Any attempt to control your hunger through conscious willpower will fail, because that approach reinforces the mind's belief that food is the reward.

Instead, first you must get familiar with the feeling of true belly hunger. Most people don't know what this is. Usually you eat due to mind / heart hunger which is the "craving for pizza" or "i'm starving" feeling. You are eating because of habit, reflex or emotional need.

Belly hunger is the cramping and headaches you get when you are truly at caloric deficit. Once in a while It helps to go running without calories to push yourself into hypoglycemic sensation. You will get dizzy and fatigued. Once you eat you will feel like you just did narcotics.

Now that you know that feeling of belly hunger, you should have that feeling daily (if only mildly). Keep reducing your portions until you hit that feeling regularly. Avoid seconds or having snacks nearby.

Eventually belly hunger becomes your signal to eat rather than mind hunger . And when you serve food you will serve portions that will satisfy the belly hunger and not your emotional needs.

Once you are at this point you'll be on autopilot. The other side effect is that avoiding eating will become more rewarding since you will enjoy the belly-hunger feeling (since it's natural), and the bloated feeling will elicit disgust.

When I was overweight, overeating brought intense relief and pleasure. Now the sensations are inverted and overeating makes me feel deeply disgusted (like eating a rotten apple).

tl;dr Align your hunger reflex with your biological need for food by treating your body as a dog that needs to be trained to associate hunger with positive emotions and overindulgence with negative ones.

<comment><USER58> This is the conclusion I also reached, I'm also eating whatever I want but not whenever I want, instead when there is a hunger. I'm just couple of months in, but still consistently loosing about kg in ten days easily.

<comment><USER57> awesome work. trust me getting control over eating will be one of the most liberating feelings in the world. and your discipline will spill over into other aspects of life--it becomes quite empowering.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> I really, really love fasting. It's when you starve yourself. Many people can't do it but I'm living proof that you can. It raises adrenaline and lowers cortisol so I feel just peppy through the day. And now because I went for a week without eating last month and described a mechanism, I have the honor of being a father figure to all of you in telling you that you, too, may starve, and one day achieve the health goals that I've achieved as of last month. I'm a Google engineer btw

Edit: stop PMing me asking for pictures and blood test results. HUGE invasion of privacy

</comment><comment><USER60> One strategy to balance food intake is to _only_ eat when it _taste good_.

</comment><comment><USER61> " eTRF schedule where participants ate three meals over a six-hour period with breakfast at 8:00 a.m. and dinner at 2:00 p.m."

No thanks. There's no way you're enjoying what you're eating if you're stuffing more food down your throat even before your stomach has a chance to digest.

</comment><comment><USER62> As long-term large-scale observational data, consider that the "Mediterranean diet" is widely touted as especially healthy. People in Mediterranean countries tend to eat late dinners, like the control group in this study.

No concrete conclusion here, just a general warning about believing in monocausal silver bullets, I guess.</comment>


India OKs Hydroxychloroquine as Prophylaxis for Hcare Workers, Family Members - <AUTHOR> https://swarajyamag.com/insta/covid-19-india-recommends-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylaxis-for-healthcare-providers-patient-family-members <comment><USER2> Actual official paper [https://www.mohfw.gov.in/pdf/AdvisoryontheuseofHydroxychloro...](https://www.mohfw.gov.in/pdf/AdvisoryontheuseofHydroxychloroquinasprophylaxisforSARSCoV2infection.pdf)</comment>


Ask HN: What are some mobile app games to improve mental speed and agility? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> isc.ro</comment>


Vidyard (YC S11) launches A/B thumbnail testing + YouTube management - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/apps/2012/07/18/vidyards-powerful-professional-video-hosting-gets-huge-new-features-including-youtube-syndication/

<comment><USER2> Vidyard's lack of captioning prevents it from being used in HigherEd schools fearful of accessibility lawsuits. Universities would enjoy it.

</comment><comment><USER3> If only YouTube would pick more than 3 frames at random for you to use as thumbnails.. it's been picking some next to useless thumbnails for my videos lately :-(</comment>


Whats thw crazyest thing ur goats have eaten? (2012) - <AUTHOR> https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/whats-thw-crazyest-thing-ur-goats-have-eaten.137904/ <comment><USER2> There's a BASE-jump spot in the south of France - it's a reasonably high viaduct that traverses a valley.

There is a couple of goats that live under where the bridge span begins - which is also where to happen to gear up for your jump.

While you're trying to prepare mentally and physically for the BASE jump, the goats are trying their best to eat your parachute, pilot chute, parachute bag, shoelaces.

They are completely adorable, and also have their own facebook page: [https://www.facebook.com/Biquettejetaimebeaucoup/](https://www.facebook.com/Biquettejetaimebeaucoup/)

Even more startling, they frequently mount the span and wander across the valley some 300m below..

[https://i.imgur.com/4epzfbJ.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4epzfbJ.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER3> I really miss those old forums. There was one phpBB forum for my bumfuck nowhere town's music scene that I really loved. I made a lot of friends there that I still talk to 15 years later.

The internet now is so much more 'global' but also so much more bland at the same time. Someone tried to resurrect the music scene website as a facebook group but it floundered.

My theory about that failure was that there were no trolls and flamewars to keep it interesting. The kind of trolling where you might actually see the guy at a bar a couple weeks later and admit that, "yeah, that was actually pretty hilarious".

I think trolling in general is actually useful in some context. It's absurdist and the best troll copypasta is by definition funny, otherwise people wouldn't keep copying it.

<comment><USER4> There were _tons_ of flamewars and memes on the forums I visit(ed). If anything, the drama was spicier and the memes were more surreal.

They still exist and are still used (the goat thread is from 2013, it's not _that_ old), but Reddit ate some of their lunch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's so nice to see these little pockets of the old-style web still thriving in some places.

<comment><USER6> A blog post is the "old web" now?

<comment><USER7> A forum dedicated to a single topic is certainly getting less common, yes. I remember the Good Old Days(tm) of finding the best forums for whatever topics you were interested in. These days it's just old.reddit.com/r/whatever. I guess it makes it easier to find things, but less interesting and exciting.

<comment><USER8> I'm not convinced they're getting less common. If anything, it feels like new online communities keep popping up for various hobbies. It's just _really_ easy to miss the communities unless you have a reason to join them.

Pinball is a personal hobby of mine, and there's no shortage of active forums -- Pinside, Tilt Forums, even rec.games.pinball still sees daily posts. /r/pinball exists, of course, but you'd be hard pressed to find many folks who treat it as a daily destination.

You'll find a _lot_ of similar spaces in other hobbies.

<comment><USER9> The problem is finding them.

Back in the day, if I typed in "Radiohead" or "guitar pedal schematics" I would find forums or personal sites about these topics.

Now I will find (1.) Stores (2.) Content aggregators

Those niche forums and websites likely still exist, but it isn't obvious how to find them.

The ones I frequent are insulated from the wider internet. The fact that these places are absorbed into the structure of Reddit is a shame: while it's easier, the discussion is constrained by what is possible on the platform. Static content is difficult to maintain, like discussions of album errata or the history of some circuit.

This is probably just bias for the late-90s.

<comment><USER10> Someone should make a search engine just for forums.

Hey DDG peeps, if you stumble upon this comment: make a forums-only filter!

<comment><USER11> I pretty often find myself searching <keywords> \+ forum. Seems to work reasonably well.

<comment><USER10> ... or I could just start doing that, yes.

But seriously, thanks for saving me from my own idiocy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Apparently, cows eat clothes. I personally haven't seen it. My mother tells the story of how her sister's Sunday best clothes were gobbled up by cows. They had done their washing and were playing a game or something. The rule was someone would watch the clothes whilst the others played. On that day whatever game they were playing was too absorbing. Her sister, my aunt had to make do with odds and ends from other relatives until the next Christmas. We only got new clothes at Christmas back in the day.

<comment><USER13> I'd expect that cotton clothes should be digestible to ruminants; it's just cellulose for which they have enzymes.

A goat might be able to get some calories out of a pair of Levi's.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> (possibly) decking screws.

I was working on the roof of the animal shelter and had a box of self-tapping deck screws that I foolishly left at goat level. I looked down from the roof to see the goat with her head in the box, screws sticking out of her mouth. I jumped down and grabbed her and made a grab for the screws, but she objected and in the process at least one of the screws went missing. I assumed, but could not prove, that she had managed to swallow it.

Then we had a brilliant idea: my son's metal detector! We grabbed it and my daughter held the goat upright as I scanned it over her abdomen. The results were inconclusive. What does a metal detector sound like against normal animal abdomen, versus animal abdomen with a deck screw in it? Didn't know. So in another flash of genius I pulled off my shirt and we scanned me.

In the end we we never found the screw, were never able to prove the goat ate it, and heaven only knows what passing drivers thought. FWIW the goat showed no ill signs afterwards.

This is actually a thing with cattle; it's called "hardware disease". Basically, scrap metal - nails, staples, etc. get mixed up in their hay and they ingest it. The cure is to feed them an enormous magnet, which contains the metal bits and prevents them from getting into the intestines. Not kidding.

[http://www.magnetsource.com/Solutions_Pages/cowmags.html](http://www.magnetsource.com/Solutions_Pages/cowmags.html)

</comment><comment><USER15> I don't have a goat story but my dog Scout (RIP buddy) ate at various times: several decorative hand soaps, an entire loaf of bread, and once he got into a grease trap and drank a ton of grease. Thought he was gonna die after the grease, his eyes were all red for a few days and he was super sick, but he lived through it to have many more adventures.

[http://media.charlesleifer.com/blog/photos/p1473037171.1.JPG](http://media.charlesleifer.com/blog/photos/p1473037171.1.JPG)

<comment><USER16> My maltese managed to eat the grease from my wife's stove-top drippings can. She pooped grease for 3 days which was zero fun to clean up. But her coat was fabulous for a good 6 months after that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Couldn't visualize how a goat would chew up a whole shirt so found some footage. Apparently they just swallow the whole thing, no idea how they don't choke on it.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ACgKoxUuCk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ACgKoxUuCk)

<comment><USER18> I watched the whole video. There are not many videos where people film the whole process. Though most people also have their shirts on.

Mesmerizing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> HN post of the year!

<comment><USER20> I'm in favor of having more goat posts on hacker news. They're the hackers of the animal world.

<comment><USER21> Also crows.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> More of thws on hacker new's plz.

Seriously though, I love how lighthearted this is. As many folks here have said, we could use more old-school forums in our lives. And goats.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm surprised nobody's goat has eaten their 10mm socket.

Also, I wonder how many of these wires and plastic products the goats are eating are made in part using soy.

</comment><comment><USER24> Goats eating coffee is a very old tale! "The story of Kaldi, the 9th-century Ethiopian goatherd who discovered coffee when he noticed how excited his goats became after eating the beans from a coffee plant, did not appear in writing until 1671 and is probably apocryphal." [Wikipedia:Coffee]

</comment><comment><USER25> Mostly hair, it turns out.

My theory: this post is a precursor to the launch of an Uber for goat rentals. It's the grass and weed trimming solution of the past, and also the future?

<comment><USER26> They already rent goats in the south to clear kudzu and brush.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I saw a goat pluck a dollar bill out of someone's back pocket and eat it. Same goat also ate several maps in their entirety. Nibbled loose clothing as well.

</comment><comment><USER28> I have a pretty good one. When I was a kid our goat once ate the rubber strip off my slingshot. That goat would try to eat just about anything - newspapers, clothes, etc. This behavior seems to be specific to goats, I'm not aware of any other animal behaving similarly.

</comment><comment><USER29> Yikes. Headline gore.

</comment><comment><USER30> I want to say this as unequivocally as I can: the only good goat is a cooked goat.

<comment><USER31> I live on a sheep & goat farm. Not sure where your opinion is coming from! We have about 30 of them and they're every one of them very sweet and friendly animals. The sheep are much less likable.

<comment><USER30> > Not sure where your opinion is coming from!

Goat curry, goat stew, goat caldereta, goat kabob...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Apparently, they ate the filter that keeps this place from turning into Reddit.

<comment><USER33> So true, this spot on the front page could have been filled with a perfectly good article about React or Lyft.

<comment><USER34> or whatever turmoil seems to be happening at either facebook or google of late.

<comment><USER35> Hah! As one of those involved with Google+ drama, I'm thinking of how/whether this might be relevant, and am thinking "yes" to the latter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I upvoted just to make the mods angry.

<comment><USER37> You need to revise your mod model! I just saw this story and turned the flags off so it could have more time on the front page.

<comment><USER34> Thank You!

I value this little slice of odd than yet another post about some oddly named (many consonants, no vowels) new react framework or some such. ;-)</comment></comment></comment>


What actually happens when you buy a domain name? - <AUTHOR> https://hackernoon.com/what-actually-happens-when-you-buy-a-domain-name-9c996d352af3 <comment><USER2> Quite a level-headed and reasonable overview for such a short text. At least at face-value. Could someone more knowledgeable in the subject step in and comment on his information and arguments?

</comment><comment><USER3> all domains which signed an agreement with ICANN have some fee component going into process. You can call it tax, or not. PIR, who operate _.org_ are basically funding ISOC, which in turn funds the IETF and related activities to a significant extent. I am a net beneficiary of this system as a participant in IETF, so perhaps I am biassed, but I do still think this is a good thing, and I own domain names and pay the tax.</comment>


Show HN:  Wavo.me - A social network for music to take on Spotify and iTunes. - <AUTHOR> https://wavo.me/

<comment><USER3> This looks really interesting, but to be completely honest, I lost all interest once I saw that there was no other option but to sign up with Facebook.

As a developer, I understand the business and UX need for it, but it still manages to turn me away from really interesting services. It looks like you're looking to improve on this pain-point, so I'll definitely check this out later. :)

I'd also love it if the About page was on your own site as well. Linking to the Facebook app page feels like you were a little rushed.

<comment><USER4> Hey borgopants -- I'm one of the devs at wavo.

We've gotten the same feedback from several people, and we know it's a priority. Artists and labels, in particular, have asked for non-Facebook login methods. It's on its way, promise. We just haven't quite made it there yet.

<comment><USER3> No problem. As I said, looks like a really interesting service and I've saved it so that I'll check it out once you guys add separate account options.

Great UI on the homepage though! Keep up the good work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm one of the co-founders and just wanted to give a bit more info on what we're trying to do with wavo.me. We're artists, bloggers, event organizers and fans. We've felt for some time that existing services are missing key parts of the music experience. A truly excellent music service should connect artists, bloggers, labels and fans together. It should create a community that encourages discovery and dialogue. Wavo.me is our attempt to create a social network for music.

We've started with a service similar to Pinterest -- A simple and beautiful way to discover, collect and share music with friends.

It's a big project. We're at the very beginning and we'd love your feedback.

(FYI, you can only sign up with Facebook right now... We know, we know... alternative ways of signing in are coming, along with a mobile version)

<comment><USER6> I think it's a bit disingenuous to compare yourself to Spotify (at least on HN). I think a big part of Spotify's business is that they have agreements with the big 4 record companies for each country, and they're rolling out their service as they get the deals signed in each country. So if I use Spotify, I'm listening to music legally, and a lot of music is available.

You are using Youtube, so you're limited by what's on Youtube, and various other strings attached.

Anyway, I think the site is a lot of fun, rock on! =)

<comment><USER5> Yes, you're 100% right. When you look at it from a business model point of view, we're not at all the same as spotify - at least not yet. What I was trying to get at, though, is that we're really trying to fix what's broken about the existing experience - Spotify has some social elements, but it's not their DNA. iTunes had ping, but that didn't last. What we want to do with wavo is really connect artists, labels and fans together in a meaningful way to create a shared experience that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Just as an aside: its not clear in the Uex but you can also search Soundcloud.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> FYI for anyone else running Ghostery: you have to disable it to get the site to load at all. Seems to get stuck in a permanent "loading" loop if it doesn't detect the FB social plugin script.

Developers: if you care about privacy-conscious users, you may want to fix that.

<comment><USER4> Ah, interesting! Thanks for letting us know, we're looking into that right now.

Regarding Facebook, we do require Facebook to login (as mentioned elsewhere, we're going to add other ways to log in soon) and we require the Facebook SDK for some of our social stuff. That said, we should handle this better - <USER2> shouldn't get stuck in a permanent loading loop!

<comment><USER8> It's amazing how much I miss out on because I don't have a Facebook account. I accept that this is a choice I made, but it's amazing how much of a second- class citizen it makes you feel like these days.

<comment><USER7> Really? What else have you missed out on that you'd otherwise want to use?

Plenty of sites have a prominent Facebook sign-in button they steer you towards, but will reluctantly give you a username/password, if you insist. Songkick, for instance, or the very cool 2u.fm site that another HNer posted here recently. Others accept Facebook or Twitter, or Facebook or Google.

But Facebook-only seems pretty uncommon. All I can think of are TechCrunch comments, and the Scoble-beloved Highlight app for iOS. Most developers seem to avoid going Facebook-only because they face a backlash (as the devs behind this site have acknowledged already).

<comment><USER9> Spotify was a big one, but it looks as though they added non-facebook signups back in recently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I like wavo but before I tell you why I like it let me tell you what I don't like. I simply hate the whole facebook sign in option… (looks like I'm not the only one) Therefore it's been a long time since I had checked my wavo profile. I don't hate facebook but sometimes you don't want to share every single thing.

Now what I like: the UI is great.

Let me dig deeper and share with you my experience with wavo. Like I said I never sign in but every week I receive an e-mail from them. In that e-mail I have links to a playlist. The playlist is what's popular at the moment on wavo.

This is the single feature that I love because I am able to discover new artists and new songs. Some songs are mainstream but the vast majority is not.

Of course I would love to tell you that there are more features on wavo but I simply don't bother to sign in.

<comment><USER5> We recently added clearer ways to turn seamless sharing off with Facebook. You can either disable it for four hours by clicking on the switch in the top right or by going into your preferences and disabling it permanently.

Right now Facebook makes life easy in certain ways and is obviously an effective way to acquire users but we're getting to the point where we've got most of the basic user experience figured out so a secondary way of signing in is moving up in our priority list. Really glad you like the emails and hope we can get you on-boarded into the full experience soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> The UI is phenomenal, the overemphasis on Facebook sharing (not login) annoyed me though. I really, really don't want you auto-posting what I'm listening to/doing to Facebook. Spotify & Songza do it and it drives me insane.

It's actually the main reason why I stopped using SocialCam & Viddy. I couldn't trust the service. "Normals" probably don't have the same problem with it, but I personally hate it.

(As a side-note, I have no problem posting great songs I listen to on Hype Machine to Facebook & Twitter. I just want to be in control of what is posted.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey Andrew, wavo co-founder here.

We definitely understand that some of our users prefer not to use the social sharing features of our app ; hence we added the capability to turn those off, either temporarily with the use of the "social-sharing" switch at the top of the interface --or-- permanently via the preference dialog that you can find in the top left menu.

<comment><USER11> Thanks for the response. I fully get why you're doing it and appreciate the options to turn them off. With that said, it's really just a band-aid to appease the vocal opponents.

My mental model of sharing (and I'd bet it's shared by many others as well) is that there needs to be an explicit "sharing action" taken. I should know exactly what happens when I do something - I don't on your site. As a result, I never get to the "aha" moment because I'm afraid to click on anything.

<comment><USER5> You are definitely right and we'll be continually looking at better ways to integrate seamless sharing into the app.

Seamless sharing is also a "band-aid." It gets users sharing your app at the beginning but there's definitely some users who are turned off by it.

So although this is where a lot of our referral traffic comes from at the moment there are undoubtedly better ways to do this and we're working on it. These are early iterations on the product and we'll be circling back very soon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Very much dislike having to use Facebook account...lame... If users want to integrate Facebook give that option to them, but dont exclusively require a FB login...laame

UI is a little confusing and could be overwhelming for alot of folks.

However...This is a nice idea here. I have found several really great songs I had never heard of before in minutes! Perfect for people at work wanting to find new tunes.

What happens if a video that is on the popular list is deleted at some point by the source?

<comment><USER4> If the source video is deleted, Wavo simply skips that video and moves on to the next in the playlist.

And yeah, when we have the username/password pair sign-up, we'll simply have an option in the app preferences that will allow the user to additionally connect their facebook account if they like. If not - no problem.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I would've loved to try it and I don't mind the Connect with Facebook option like some folks do (I prefer it). But I didn't try it because it said that you required access to my email address. No thanks. My email isn't hidden or special (it's in my profile, for example) but I have a real problem with giving it up in exchange for registration without a clear reason ("We need your email to do x, y, and z") and without a clear sense of whether you're going to sell my info.

<comment><USER5> Hi Scott,

To answer your question here: we use your email to send you notifications of likes/comments/follows as well as three emails a week of trending music on wavo. Eventually this email will be personalized to you. As for why it's not clear up front - we made a conscious effort to keep the landing page as clean as possible. Ideally, our explanation should be part of the facebook connect dialog, but that's not actually possible. Probably when we add multiple signin options, we'll add more explanatory text there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hi guys,

Great app. Awesome UI.

Two things: 1 - Typo I noticed straight away: "Refer someone to wavo and increate your reach by +20." increate --> increase. 2 - On that note, how DO i refer someone? As in, how can the application know that it was I who referred them?

<comment><USER4> Sorry, I meant to reply earlier, but got distracted by a bug.

Thanks for pointing out the typo! That's probably been kicking around there for awhile now. :-)

Wavo detects a referral by checking for referral tokens in the url's querystring. When you share a song, share a playlist, etc, from within the app itself (with one of the share buttons, for example), Wavo crafts a url with this referral token. When a user follows that url and signs up, that referral is credited to you. Obviously, this doesn't catch everything (if you simply copy the url from the browser bar and share it with a friend, you won't get reach points), but it gets us part of the way there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Great site! I'm listening to "Slow Dancing in a burning room" while writing this comment.

You can even listen to "lisp programming" ;-) <https://wavo.me/search/yt/lisp%20programming>

<comment><USER4> Yeah, we're kind of relying on context within the UI here to keep Wavo focused on music. That said, there's nothing technically stopping you from creating a playlist of any youtube or soundcloud content you like. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This looks very similar to the new MySpace: <http://new.myspace.com>, except it features Facebook integration where new.MySpace has much richer features for content producers.

</comment><comment><USER17> very cool stuff. It was a little confusing for me to get which things were actually the "playlists" versus the tracks versus the charts.

do you have a bug-report system or anything set up? after clicking on a chart, under the div "influencers" the tooltip isn't displaying properly. (background of the tooltip might be transparent or something, I'll look into it more to figure out exactly what the problem is)

Otherwise, cool site. I'm actually working on a company that might be an interesting partnership for you. my email should be on my profile if you are interested.

</comment><comment><USER18> Turned off by the tacky as heck (and surely unlicensed) Ryan Gosling/Kate Upton posters I have seen all over Montreal promoting this. Not to mention the misleading hubris.

</comment><comment><USER19> You're going to have a hard time competing with Soundcloud. Soundcloud is where the artists are, and thus it's where the fans go.

</comment><comment><USER20> Well done! This is awesome - such a nice UX :)

</comment><comment><USER21> After sharing on Twitter it suggests me to follow @https <http://d.pr/i/dyHM>

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, THAT is odd. I'll look into it right now. Thanks for the heads up!

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I actually said "Very Beautiful" out loud, alone, in my office. Really, really great UI & UX - Well done!

</comment><comment><USER23> The UI is gorgeous; well done there.

<comment><USER4> Thanks, really glad you like it! We've spent a ton of time on the interface. (You would not believe the amount of UI we've designed, thrown away, redesigned, and thrown away again)

<comment><USER24> First thought I had was that UI would look awesome on a TV screen. I just stopped using spotify and I'm now using wavo. Any chance of a desktop app? I like app responsiveness.

<comment><USER4> Our first priority, I think, is probably to make a mobile version of the site available. Personally, I'd love to be able to use wavo on an ipad.

That said, you're right, a desktop app would be great! It would be nice to be able to pause/play/skip tracks using the hardware buttons on my laptop, too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Seems cool but I noticed a problem with Chrome on OSX (I assume this affects all browsers).

The right scroll arrow is blocked by the page scroll bar: <http://i.imgur.com/YfVUf.png>

It is very difficult/frustrating to click on that arrow.

<comment><USER26> Chrome on Windows doesn't "hover" the scrollbar over the content, so it's much easier to click there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> How do you pronounce wavo.me?

<comment><USER5> Way - vo - me</comment></comment>


How I started to come out of the dark, one thought at a time - <AUTHOR> Hi Guys, I built Paralign based on my own journey and how I started to really improve my life one thought at a time. Paralign is an anonymous journaling platform that connects you to similar thoughts as you journal; Letting you know that there is support, acknowledgement and hope. That you are not alone. Paralign gives you feedback about your thought and mood patterns and helps you be more aware. Paralign's companion feature personalizes guides (like guided meditation) to empower you to live a more relaxed and inner-connected life. iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/paralign/id906756239?mt=8 Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cst.com.paralign2&hl=en<p>Look forward to your thoughts/feedbacks <comment><USER2> there is a website (paralign.me) but there is no feature list or other FAQ information.

I was hoping to find out why permissions required include: \- Photos / media /files access \- microphone (??) \- Wi-Fi connection info \- Device ID and Call info

plus in-app purchases.

<comment><AUTHOR> I just noticed how crappy my post looks ... so sorry I will double check the permissions thanks for letting me know We will have in-app purchase items soon

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This would make a good "Show HN". Is there a website?

<comment><AUTHOR> so sorry, I just realized how bad my post looked ... yeah the website is [http://paralign.me](http://paralign.me)</comment></comment>


Reactant is a new native framework for iOS - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/29/reactant-is-a-new-native-framework-for-ios-apps/ <comment><USER2> Nice, maybe if we had more native frameworks of similar calibre to what we have in the realm of web development we could start seeing more new applications going back to native.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm confused. This says it's a Swift framework, but it also says you can live- reload code. If you're live-reloading code, then it must be something like JS and not Swift.

Edit: Ok I looked at Reactant itself, it does appear to have you writing Swift. Is the article just wrong about live-reloading code, then? Is it really just live-reloading UI elements while keeping the code the same?

<comment><USER4> Looks like the live reload is just for the optional XML used to lay out your components. So definitely not full live reload. Seems useful for styling iteration but not so much for logic testing.

<comment><USER5> You are right, live reloading is just for the UI part. Swift doesn't have the same dynamism ObjC had, so we can't simply swap the implementation. We've tried Injection4Xcode (hope I got the name right), but it's limited to ObjC only (or @objc Swift classes).

<comment><USER6> It's also a great way to be banned from the App Store since it isn't allowed to change your app without Apple being able to review it first.

<comment><USER5> You can't change the binary, but you can change the app. But with Reactant, we compile the XML files containing the UI into native Swift when building in Release mode. We do that to remove any runtime overhead that would be added by parsing the XML and going through it to create the UI/layout.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Any current users that can review how using it feels like?

And whats the difference between this and RxSwift</comment>


How secure is 256 bit security? - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9JGmA5_unY <comment><USER2> Videos like these are a nice introduction to the power of cryptography. Nevertheless, I feel like the wow factor not only gets prioritized, but it completely takes over the conversation.

There should be more emphasis in how hash functions have been weakened in the past, how that can still happen today, and what it would mean to the world if this happened over night (this last point is unlikely, but still not impossible).

When I first studied cryptography, and Bitcoin, I remember seeing an article that talked about the lifecycles of hash functions [http://valerieaurora.org/hash.html](http://valerieaurora.org/hash.html) ... In my arrogance, I dismissed it. Today I can see how spot on it is.</comment>


What are the best cities to work in data? - <AUTHOR> http://charlesdadi.github.io/dataviz_jobs

<comment><USER2> A.k.a. cities offering the worst salaries, relative to other options available to residents, resulting in the most unfilled positions.

Winner: London.

</comment><comment><USER3> Bangalore if you can work on hiring someone every 4 year, or pay good salary the senior folks will stick on 8-10 years.

</comment><comment><USER4> What data is this based on?

</comment><comment><USER5> Why is git under web dev?</comment>


Using GraphQL with REST APIs - <AUTHOR> https://dev.to/smizell/using-graphql-with-rest-apis-2c4k <comment><USER2> Thanks, I hate it. :)

Why use arrays to represent singular values? Also, singular names for potentially plural results is bad form, however you want to sugar coat it. This might be cool for an API provider, but it looks like a nightmare to deal on the API consumer side of things. I like the basic GraphQL results better (still not sold on GraphQL as a whole, but alas). This offloads needless complexity onto the consumer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Author here. Sounds like I won you over :)

Thanks for the feedback here. I modified the post a bit to not show the arrays because the library doesn't return arrays but rather aync generators. The power of this is that you have a single interface for interacting with all data no matter if there are zero or many results.

This is library is a proof of concept. In a perfect world, there would be a nice wrapper around this query result for interacting with the data.

      queryResult.get('order').first()

This would provide a single order by calling the first yield for the generator. No need to worry about the underlying result.

With all of this said, it doesn't have to be this way. I'm exploring ideas here. The important concept is that GraphQL can be used to express the expectations of the client and a library like Graphable JSON can go find the needed data in the API. This gives the expressiveness of GraphQL with the benefits of REST. The sky is the limit. Thanks again for the feedback!</comment></comment>


Ron Paul: Trump may be vulnerable to 2020 GOP primary challenge - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ron-paul-trump-may-be-vulnerable-to-2020-gop-primary-challenge/article/2644395 <comment><USER2> If Trump didn't get the tax bill passed I would agree with Paul but he did get it passed so I think Trump will get re-elected.

<comment><USER3> Passing the bill was something of a double-edged sword. Even in this polarized climate, the GOP will have a difficult time convincing Trump's potential voters that it benefits most of them (particularly when on paper, it doesn't).</comment></comment>


What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic - <AUTHOR> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html <comment><USER2> You may not get many comments because lots of people here have seen this before. Here are some of the previous submissions:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=453396>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=687604>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1746797>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1937182>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1982332> <\-- comments

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2051062>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2287497>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2614330>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2684497>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3058560>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3428112>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3681116>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3771674>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks Colin!

You have been very helpful on keeping me on my toes. I'll be working on a tool to prevent me from making such mistakes again.

<comment><USER2> Hey Daniel,

Problem is that from some points of view it's not really a mistake. We are encouraged to submit things we find that are expected to be of interest to hackers, and this certainly should be. The lack of a comprehensive duplicate detector and the fact that items do fade into obscurity together mean that repeats like this are inevitable, and not necessarily "wrong."

I'd love to see a solution to this niggle. Others say it's not a problem, and I've even had some rather unpleasant emails over the issue, but I maintain that repeats like this show the need for a companion site with "Classic News" (whatever that may mean)

I started to develop one, but life took over, and I don't have the skills to knock up web prototypes quickly, so it languishes, unloved. Maybe one day something will be done to create a resource that preserves the knowledge and judgment implicit in these resubmissions.</comment></comment></comment>


Why are so many programmers arrogant? - <AUTHOR> http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/4693/why-are-so-many-programmers-arrogant-closed

<comment><USER2> I don't know about arrogant, but a lot are INTJ. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

</comment><comment><USER3> Dup: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1706034></comment>


Are you accidentally breaching open sources licenses in your mobile app? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.human-friendly.com/are-you-breaching-open-source-licenses-accidentally

<comment><AUTHOR> This is my first purpose written blog post. Let me know what you think (I've got a thickish skin and believe I can take both the worst you can throw at me or any middle-brow dismissal depending on the mood of the crowd).

<comment><AUTHOR> And just on the hour (9pm UK, 20:00 UTC and 1pm SF) the updated app was approved for the app store. It had been "In Review" since Friday morning (SF time). Is that normal - recent updates have spent longer in review than the initial release and earlier updates.</comment></comment>


Epic's Fortnite Installer allowed to install anything on your Android phone - <AUTHOR> https://m.androidcentral.com/epic-games-first-fortnite-installer-allowed-hackers-download-install-silently <comment><USER2> Epic Games provided the following comment from CEO Tim Sweeney:

"Epic genuinely appreciated Google's effort to perform an in-depth security audit [...]

However, it was irresponsible of Google to publicly disclose the technical details of the flaw so quickly, while many installations had not yet been updated and were still vulnerable.

An Epic security engineer, at my urging, requested Google delay public disclosure for the typical 90 days to allow time for the update to be more widely installed. Google refused. You can read it all at [https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/112630336](https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/112630336)

Google's security analysis efforts are appreciated and benefit the Android platform, however a company as powerful as Google should practice more responsible disclosure timing than this, and not endanger users in the course of its counter-PR efforts against Epic's distribution of Fortnite outside of Google Play."

<comment><USER3> I like when "following standard practice, literally listed in the bug report and used 100's of times" is suddenly "counter-pr efforts" I like when "following standard practice, literally listed in the bug report and used 100's of times" is suddenly "counter-pr efforts"

type: vulnerability is new, but if you search the public bug tracker for the phrase "This bug is subject to a 90-day disclosure deadline",

It looks like they have been pretty darn consistent about unrestricting once the patch is available. Usually faster than 7 days! They have also held people to the 90 day requirement, and the 14 day grace extension they offer This is true even when the reporter is a googler or it affects only google software.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This isn't a very serious bug, this cannot be exploited unless your phone already has malware on it.

</comment><comment><USER5> This was posted previously here, for further discussions: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17838887](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17838887)

</comment><comment><USER6> Dupe: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17838887](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17838887)

</comment><comment><USER7> Comment by MBCook in an earlier version of this post

>> "It wouldn't surprise me if google did this as a sort of backhanded way of saying "see what happens when you don't use our App Store?"

I don't disagree with Googles decision here. Epic is being incredibly reckless with their bypassing the play store.

<comment><USER8> While it'd be good for Android to have an option to trust a certain source once rather than leaving "unknown sources" open all the time, I'm _glad_ companies are bypassing the Play Store. One company shouldn't be able to dictate the terms for all software distribution on a certain OS. That's not the way it's ever been on the desktop, and I don't want it to become the new norm in computing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's a cute PR move from Google.</comment>


StoreKit is broken - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/revenuecat-blog/storekit-is-broken-cecd2b823ff0 <comment><USER2> Yeah, and that's before you even start dealing with subscriptions. Or the sandbox, don't get me started on the sandbox. And the dozen indistinguishable error states that return "couldn't connect to iTunes" as the error message when what actually went wrong was that the user's card was declined or parental restrictions were on or even that the user canceled out of the Storekit confirmation dialog.</comment>