Ask YC: Is the Bay Area Much Better than Seattle for Startups? - <AUTHOR> Long time reader, first time poster. Thanks in advance for reading this post and extra thanks if you can reply with your thoughts.
I'm working full time in a software company in Seattle area and will be leaving soon to work full-time on my startup.  (I already have already released a prototype of my product).  I'm tempted to stay in Seattle as I love it here... but my startup is my first priority, and I'm prepared to move anywhere in the world if it means I'll have a significantly higher probability of success.  Finally, I'm a single founder and potentially looking for a technical co-founder... so where I can find this person factors in to the decision as well.
Questions for you:
1) For those of you who have lived in Seattle & San Francisco, how much better is SF for startups than Seattle?  How do you quantify this?
2) I have a quick list of pros/cons to Seattle vs. SF below... can folks provide feedback on whether this analysis makes sense?
3) Any other thoughts on whether I should make the move or not?
4) Where is better for finding like minded entrepreneurial hackers?
Pro/Con for Seattle vs. SF Seattle Pros: lower cost of living, closer access to outdoors & mountains etc..., lower cost of rent for offices, lower legal costs, less competition for top quality talent than SF (there are fewer startups in Seattle so people who want to work at them have fewer choices on where to go), monthly startup events have on the order of ~50 people or so, rains often so you're more likely to sit inside coding than going outside Cons: rains a lot :P
SF Pros: epicenter of startups, monthly startup events (SFBeta etc..) have on the order of ~100 people, huge talent pool of highly skilled engineers, more likely to find technical co-founder, more startup events, more access to capital, closer to family SF Cons: higher cost of living, higher cost of rent, higher cost of services (leagal etc..), harder to get top quality talent (you're competing with hundreds of startups), more competition for capital
PS:
I have already read PG's essays and read the YCNews forums on where to be for a tech startup.  I've also recently read Marc Andreessen's post on where your startup should be (he reccomends moving to the Valley).  Finally, I have a friend who recently quit Google to work on his startup full time in the Bay Area and he extols the advantages of the location. <comment><USER3> Noooooo, don't leave Seattle! <grin>

Why exactly wouldn't you apply for YC funding? Would get you rice and beans money and 3 month trip to startup school in CA... If you get selected, of course.

It sounds like your core unmet need is a technical co-founder.

If finding a technical co-founder is your highest priority, you should be able to find one in Seattle. Every event I go to I meet scads of "I work at Amazon/MS ad I'm just seeing what's out there" type of coders. How many of those have you talked to? Why aren't they jumping on board?

Like any other marketing, if you aren't getting a ton of nibbles with smaller audience (Seattle), expanding to a larger audience might not be the answer. It might be smart to address your idea or how you're pitching it.

All that being said, SF looks pretty cool. :-)

</comment><comment><USER4> I moved to the Bay area for my Day job (ER nurse) while I complete my CS degree. Even as an ER nurse, 2-3 nurses that I work with are married to either VC's or angel investors.

One of our volunteers at the ER where I work is an executive assistant for a VC. Several other nurses are married to engineers who work for Yahoo, Google, etc... She's offered to put me into contact with whoever I want to in the VC world. I'm not ready for it yet, but I can imagine that she could arrange an introduction or two.

It's hard to avoid networking opportunities here. And, there is an acceptance even among the non-tech people that Startups are the place to be. It's the cultural norm to start a business here.

I've lived in Minneapolis, Chicago, outside of Boston, LA and now the Bay area. Every city is good at certain things. Tech and startups are what the Bay does, and we do it well.

</comment><comment><USER5> i can't say whether you should move to SF or not, but i can tell you my experiences.

i've lived in both seattle and san francisco, and currently live in SF. though i was more involved with the corporate scene than the startup scene in seattle, the vibe is entirely different down here. startups live here. you meet tons of smart people working on cool stuff. it's a great place to be.

competition ends up being a good thing -- as LA is to many of the best (and wannabe-best) people in the entertainment industry, so SF is to the nerd industry.

even though it can be a bummer sometimes to be coding when the weather is beautiful outside (as it is now), i find the overall environment more stimulating -- intellectually, culturally, geek-ally. there are also plenty of outdoorsy things to do very nearby in marin and the east bay, though not quite as close as the options in seattle. the only thing i miss is a lower rent and the seattle music scene.

though i can't tell you whether moving will make or break your startup, SF can be a very wonderful place to live (and work).

</comment><comment><USER6> In short, no.

As far as I can tell the Silicon Valley offers value most to a very specific sort of start up. If you don't need to raise a lot of capital or require a large team of very gifted engineers (which probably requires a great deal of capital anyway), then I don't think the Valley is as valuable to you. That said, I think being connected to the important people in the industry may help your cause immensely. Perhaps spending the winter with YCombinator would accomplish that (as far as I can tell Mr. Graham is pretty important).

You also need to consider how much you value your home against the value you would bring your career. For me, moving away for a decade or two is a big deal.

No worries, I think there are a lot of good businesses that can be established by a few smart developers hacking away for a while, then launching and picking up angel funding as or if needed. I have a myriad schemes and I found that those criteria helped me cull the ten thousand to ten I am comfortable with and confident in.

It is easier to make a million dollars after a hundred thousand and a billion after a million. Don't get ahead of yourself.

<comment><USER7> My perception, from experience, is that it's actually harder to hire in the Bay Area than, well, anywhere else. Anyone with a modicum of talent that you interview in Sunnyvale can pull a $130k/yr job out of their back pocket, and the BigCo alternatives in the valley are actually pretty spectacular.

If you need a large team of very gifted engineers, start in a college town that isn't Palo Alto or Berkeley.

<comment><USER8> I don't understand why lucrative alternatives are an obstacle.

That $130k/year makes trying a startup less risky. It gave them an opportunity to save so they can live off savings. It also means that they can recover quickly from any debt they incur.

It also establishes a benchmark for a startup's value creation. If early employees can't reasonably believe that they're going to get significantly more than $130k for their efforts, either the idea/execution is too small or the founders may not play well with others, which causes other problems leading to failure.

<comment><USER7> You're making a lot of sense; I'm just saying, my experience was that it was harder to hire in the Bay Area than it has been for me to hire in NYC or Chicago, where I hire now.

It's also obvious that developers are more expensive to hire anybody in San Francisco than in Des Moines or Minneapolis.

Also, please note the bias towards founders in these discussions. A tiny team of founders is a good start, but you eventually need actual employees.

<comment><USER8> There are lots of places where it's very easy to hire but that hiring ease comes from factors that reduce the success rate.

Does harder hiring in the SF Bay Area hurt or does it merely help weed out things that don't have a chance for some other reason?

As far as later stage employees go, successful silicon valley companies go elsewhere for what they can get elsewhere.

I think that you should start where you think that you have the best chance of success. I don't think that "harder to hire" or "more expensive" captures sufficient detail, but it's your company, so that's your call.

<comment><USER7> I think you should ask questions of the conventional wisdom. The conventional wisdom says one of the reasons to move a company to the Bay Area is that it's easier to hire developers. You should question whether that's really true. I gave some reasons why I think it might not be, and cited my experience. I don't think it's true. But you make the call.

Also, careful with words like "later stage". You're "later stage" as soon as you hire the first person who isn't getting a founder's stake in the company. For us, that was weeks, not months, after the birth of our company.

<comment><USER8> That's odd. I see founders, early, and maybe another round of folks before "later".

To me, "later" isn't until the biz is well beyond self-sustaining, when there's very little risk of failure.

<comment><USER7> I understand, and am not arguing with you. Whatever you want to call them, that "second round of folks before later" is harder to hire than the founders. They're employees, not principals, and you can't bullshit them.

<comment><USER8> "Can't bullshit" sounds like a good thing.

I'm not disputing harder to hire, I'm asking whether harder to hire is a negative or a useful indicator.

<comment><USER7> If, holding talent constant, a developer costs $100k in the bay and $65k in Ann Arbor, Michigan, then Ann Arbor startups have a pronounced recruitment advantage. That's all I'm saying.

The conventional wisdom is, "go to the Bay Area, it'll be much easier to find smart developers." It is, in fact, very easy to find smart developers in the Bay Area. Unfortunately, they work for Google.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm assuming you attend Seattle Tech Startups at the library every month (if you don't, you should, you've got a pretty good chance of finding a co-founder there).

Having lived in both places, I would personally rather start a company in the Bay Area all things considered.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes I do attend the event most months. It's a great group... many thanks to Gaurav setting it up, and folks like Tony for coming and speaking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> there's a good reason for bay area to be that expensive (quoting your stuff, higher rent,higher competition,etc) and if you are in doubt simply follow the money.

not that you cannot do what you wanna do in seattle, I have lived in SF and now in Cambridge. I can simply tell you the vibe is far far better and you get stimulated to take risk when you see people around you taking far more risks (in seattle you are more likely to encounter people who say job is fine, buy house,have kids,etc). So yeah! my vote, move to the bay and be pleasantly surprised by what it offers

</comment><comment><USER11> There was an article in Business 2.0 Magazine awhile ago titled: "Escape from Silicon Valley". OK, I just found it for you:

[http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2...](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2004/12/01/8192509/index.htm)

Although it discusses the pros and cons of big city vs. little towns for start-ups, it also touches upon a variety of factors which seem to be relevant to your question.

I started my startup in a tiny place (Flagstaff, AZ) thinking I could make it work there. It almost did, but the reality is that there are numerous benefits to be had not necessarily from _living_ here (SF), but from having the contacts and network of people in this area; living here just happens to be one of the best ways to get it.

I lived in Portland, OR for awhile, and visited Seattle a few times. I seem to remember something about abnormally high depression and suicide rates being cited for residents of Seattle . . . also, isn't Seattle one of the few places that has had cost of living increasing significantly / deviating from the norm? Not to knock Seattle (hey, hey -- no income tax in WA state), but the success of a startup I imagine would be correlated to happiness of its founders/employees.

Anyway. One of the things that I think makes this area such a hub of successful startups is that people here truly believe they're going to change the world. And, a lot of them end up doing just that. :)

</comment><comment><USER12> more SEA PROs: 1) No state income tax 2) Very Green/Environmentally Friendly (until Seattle gets overcrowded) 3) Perfect Summers (beats anywhere in the country)

more SEA CONs: 1) It does not RAIN a lot. It drizzles a lot, but recent studies in the last decade have shown that Seattle's average rainfall in the given year is ranks like 46th outta 50 US states. So if you don't mind daily drizzle, then ya fine. 2) SEATAC airport is not a major hub, so expect inconvenience and pricier tickets if flying to most major cities around the continental US.

Although you can make arguments on the pro's/con's of any given city. Seattle makes more sense in that its lower overheard for your startup. When you hit it mega-big, then you can live in both areas and fly daily for lunch in SF and dinner in SEA.

</comment><comment><USER13> The "less competition for talent" argument doesn't seem to matter in practice, probably because the first 10 people you hire always (or always should) come through personal connections.

</comment><comment><USER14> Why not develop a prototype or beta at home, then after you've got something working go to the Bay and start from there!

<comment><AUTHOR> Great call... I actually already have a prototype of the product built... now it's about improving it and selling/marketing it.

<comment><USER15> Ahh, then its time to move to San Francisco :) I lived in Seattle in 1995 starting in August and was able to survive there only until February - <USER2> lack of sunshine was far too depressing for me to cope with. At the time, I helped start an architecture office (HOK) specifically to build part of the expanding Microsoft Campus (I was completely impressed with the MS real estate management pros). So I can only answer based on quality of life, and San Francisco (for me) wins hands down. We also have nature here just a short bike ride away (crossing the GG bridge) and we have world-class skiing about 3 hours away. The cultural scene here is extremely rich compared to Seattle. There are also deals to be had in office space (I pay $1 per s.f. per month) but you have to look (I found mine on Craigs List).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> If you _love_ it, then of course stay there. Geez, stupid question.

</comment><comment><USER17> Well, if I were to get fully involved in a startup, I'd love to stay south of the Mason-Dixon (Florida). It's nice to be able to not wear a coat from March to November.

</comment><comment><USER18> you've listed pros and cons - but you have to prioritize yourself. So what's more important to you - a co-founder or less rent and so on... are you certain you cannot find those things you think are important in seattle ?</comment>


Mixpanel (YC S09) New Feature - Funnel Trend Analysis - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mixpanel.com/new-feature-funnel-trend-analysis

<comment><USER2> We've definitely been wanting this... Nice work.</comment>


Startup Quote: Tim Westergren, founder, Pandora - <AUTHOR> http://startupquote.com/post/6832810913

<comment><AUTHOR> Make your team feel respected, empowered, and genuinely excited about the company's mission.

\- Tim Westergren (@timwestergren)

<http://startupquote.com/post/6832810913></comment>


Rationalizing the insanity of startup life - <AUTHOR> http://www.micaelwidell.com/p/4/

<comment><USER2> Never thought about it that way before, but that makes a lot of sense. As I alluded to before[1], you'd have to be insane to the a startup founder. And there's no question that my life is "messed up" by any normal standard.

So, how do I rationalize it? Well...

1\. I cannot stand the idea of having "a boss" anymore. Yeah, yeah, I _know_ that "you always have a boss" in a metaphorical sense, but I don't want one specific person who can walk in the room, yank my chain and command me to "do this" or "stop doing that" etc. It goes against my intrinsic nature and I've lived that way too long.

2\. I think building a startup is the best chance I have to achieve the kind of financial independence and freedom I'm looking for. Yeah, yeah, I know the stats about how you can go into investment banking, maybe a few hundred K per year and have a better average outcome than being a founder. But I don't plan on an average outcome. Which leads straight to...

3\. Like most founders, I'm irrational and think that I'm special somehow. Of course I'll be one of the ones who succeeds, why wouldn't I? But that's obviously irrational, which leads to...

4\. I don't _care_ if it's irrational, because I can live with failure, as long as I fail with honor, so to speak. Chasing my dreams, reaching for the sky, going for a moon-shot, and failing and dying penniless, broke, alone and destitute is absolutely acceptable to me. Living an average, boring, dull, bland life is not.

5\. I just want a chance to do things on my own terms, live my own life, and call my own shots. It's my internal "Howard Roark" guiding me. I just plan to do what I plan to do, and I don't really care who does or doesn't like it. In fact, I like the idea of having doubters, detractors and adversaries, because they motivate me. So casting myself into a story with those elements is just part of my own internal mythology.

6\. It's fun, in a perverse sort of way. Not getting enough sleep, forgoing social interactions, pushing myself to the breaking point, all in a mad, desperate quest to achieve something... what could possibly be better?

7\. I'm a child of the 80's and the era of the "feel good movie" where the good guys win in the end, thanks to hard work, determination and perseverance, and sheer will. Again, internal mythology... This is my chance to live out a Joseph Campbellian "Hero With A Thousand Faces" story. Or, depending on how things turn out, an H.P. Lovecraft story. :-)

[1]: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5688444></comment>


Ask HN: Best services\apps where businesses can have a public presence - <AUTHOR>

Hi HN ... I am looking for promising sites and apps (whether they are established or just starting out) that allows a business to have a public presence, usually a page dedicated to that business with information, ratings, reviews, photos etc.  It can be open to all businesses or just particular niches (doctors, real estate, restaurants, hotels, startups, software companies etc).
I am not interested in sites where they have just purchased a $49 directory theme and added some data  (unless they have gained decent traffic) but quality products that look good, work well and have a future.
There are some really impressive projects out there and most small business owners would not know that they are either listed there or there is an opportunity to promote their business (usually for free). Also they need to make sure their information is accurate and complete and the presence promotes their business in the best way possible.
I am looking to promote these services to business owners to help them build and manage their overall online presence & reputation .. there is no cost to be included.
we already include over 700 services and apps worldwide listed at: https://www.mypresences.com/services/
So if you know of or have a great app or site not listed I would love to know more.
Thanks. <comment><USER2> How do you reach small business owners to market to them?

<comment><AUTHOR> hi ... we promote the services to the businesses that signup to our platform. We provide online presence and reputation management .. so if a restaurant in LA signs up we will suggest a list of services where they can have a presence based on their industry and location. The user can then see more about these services and filter and sort them to decide on where they should list their business. We then help them manage and build their presence there.

The aim is to help them discover some really great services they were not aware of before or even discover services where they have a presence but they where not aware of it.

We get business onto our platform via advertising, trade shows, word of mouth etc and that gives exposure to the services we list targeted directly to the type of business that would list there.

<comment><USER2> I tried to create a test account but I can't add a presence. I put the link in the box and submit but nothing happens.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi .. thanks for taking a look! Everything goes into a work queue and the presence you added was added to the end of the discovery process that was still running. I will look at displaying something to the user if adding a presence will be delayed (usually only happens during the initial process of discovering presences).

I just checked and it looks like it is now complete and it found 27 initial presences for the business you added.

<comment><USER2> I see them in the dashboard now. Wow this is really cool!

<comment><AUTHOR> hi .. glad you liked it.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Demonoid Down, For Now - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/09/25/demonoid-down-for-now/ <comment><USER2> we still have isohunt, at least.

Now if they ever shut down my oink, I don't know what I'll do...</comment>


An open letter to Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook) - <AUTHOR> http://www.aarongreenspan.com/letter/index.html

<comment><USER2> As the letter states: Yahoo paying FB $100 per user, and not every FB user buying anything worth $100. So the Yahoo offer is much more lucrative.

Is it a justifiable to work on this idealogy for an acquisition? Say, for xyz.com, if each user brings in $10 on average (through advertising or sales), should the acquisition value (per user value) be more than that amount?

I'm not quite aware of this, so thought I'd ask.

<comment><USER3> >Say, for xyz.com, if each user brings in $10 on average (through advertising or sales), should the acquisition value (per user value) be more than that amount?

The gospel is that the value of a company is the total value of expected future cashflows. This generally applies to publicly traded companies.

AFAIK acquirers typically pay more than the market value since the acquirer usually perceives more value for it. Eg. Yahoo and MSFT may be able to make more money with facebook than facebook can by itself. Their bidding can drive the price up.

There are also strategic reasons. Eg: Yahoo might die if MSFT acquires facebook instead. This can also drive the price up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Aaron's a great guy, you guys should also check out the NYT article about him: [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/01/technology/01facebook.html...](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/01/technology/01facebook.html?ex=1189915200&en=c3fd741764e074db&ei=5070)

It's refreshing to see someone NOT jump at the chance to sue FB, and arguably his case would be most likely to succeed.

<comment><USER5> It is unfortunate because it seems that those that succeed (especially in the computer industry) are the biggest jerks.

The article does mention Gates, who was involved in some pretty shady stuff when it comes to establishing Windows. You learn about Steve Jobs and his early times at Apple and it is apparent he treated a lot of people like complete shit. Steve used Woz quite a bit, too.

And then there's Zuckerberg...he might end up being a billionaire but it seems that he had to step on a lot of people to do it.

What's that quote from the Bible? 'What good is it to gain the whole world but forfeit your soul?' There's a lot of smart people here at news.yc - I hope if any of you hit it big you won't let money and fame consume you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> In case anyone's interested, Aaron and I are now working on a new startup called Qubescape. If you want us to let you know when we go live, just give us your email address at <http://www.qubescape.com> (and if you're looking to join a cool new startup, send us an email!)

<comment><USER7> What is it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Everyone seems to be grabbing at the Facebook spotlight.</comment>


Get Off Medium and onto the JAMstack - <AUTHOR> https://www.stackbit.com/medium/ <comment><USER2> thats awesome!</comment>


New UK startup visa route announced by the Home Secretary - <AUTHOR> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-start-up-visa-route-announced-by-the-home-secretary <comment><USER2> Anyone looking to move to the UK, I highly recommend the Exceptional Talent visa. It's a true hidden gem: tier 1, valid 5 years, no work restrictions, no investment required. There are only 200 slots available per year for digital technology, but the dirty secret is the 70% acceptance rate.

I successfully applied through this process last year and am now living in the UK. The whole process cost about $3k and a month of paperwork, but it was totally worth it.

If anyone has questions about it feel free to email me at the address in my profile.

<comment><USER3> What's good/bad about living in the UK, from your perspective?

<comment><USER2> First, my (relatively privileged) perspective:

\- American citizen (double taxes, etc)

\- Self-employed software consultant working remotely for US clients

\- Not living in London

\- Live in a small town near Cambridge, where I commute via train to work in a coworking office

A lot of the "good parts" are not specific to the UK, but to the lifestyle of a software consultant. So I'll leave those out.

Also, it's worth noting that I've traveled and lived in many countries and cities. I've lived 3+ months in SF, NYC, Taipei, Seattle, Houston, and the UK. I've lived 1+ month in Budapest, Belgrade, Zagreb, and probably some others I'm forgetting. In the end, every place is really the same. Yes there are subtle differences, but you're still the same person with (hopefully) the same routine, etc. Especially when the language is the same, there are little to no _major_ differences. Still, there are some subtleties so I will try to flesh some of those out.

\-----

THE GOOD PARTS of living in the UK:

\-----

\- My girlfriend lives here (obviously the #1 benefit!)

\- The GBP/USD exchange rate has been trashed the last two years. Since I work primarily with US clients and receive payments in USD, this is good for me when transferring. Although it's been climbing back up.

\- I'm not surrounded by US politics everywhere I go, although it's still hard to avoid.

\- My US rates give me a lot of relative spending power in the UK (but also see cons)

\- UK.gov is actually a surprisingly helpful resource and really smoothens interactions with the government. Local government websites are another story.

\- English breakfasts

\- Banking is simpler than in the US, but regulations can be a pain, and often times it seems like something is "for your security" but it's just poorly thought out and implemented.

\- The trains are great, but also pretty expensive.

\- Cheap and fast mobile data plans. Reliable broadband.

\-----

THE BAD PARTS of living in the UK:

\-----

\- The weather, except for 3-4 months in the summer. At least winters are mild, though.

\- Missing my friends, family etc. Missing New York.

\- Terrible, terrible wages in tech, typically half of US salaries even after adjustments. This isn't too much of a problem for me since I'm self-employed, but it does effectively take the option of employment off the table. Note that as a founder, this could be a benefit.

\- Council taxes, TV licensing, needing a license for tons of things, and generally over-bureaucratic systems in banking and government that cause more problems than they attempt to solve. Sometimes it feels like you need a full background check just to walk down the street. The amount of private data I had to give to landlords is astounding.

\- Massive surveillance, both online and offline, and especially on the motor ways. Few protections on freedom of speech.

\- Groceries and restaurants are typically more expensive than in the US. In general the cost of living is higher, but this is somewhat offset by my living in a small town.

\- No Chipotle. :(

\- Classism, racism and sexism amongst the ruling/elite class. This doesn't affect me directly but I've seen it second-hand for sure.

\- Very poor, uneducated population with astoundingly high rates of addiction to gambling, cigarettes and alcohol. [EDIT: Ok, this point is a bit unfair and hypocritical of me to paint with such a broad stroke. This criticism certainly does not apply to the entire population. However, where I live, in a rural area dominated by the horse racing industry, it definitely holds true. And I say this as someone who is friends with many people who fit this description. If I were a UK politician, I would eliminate gambling, raise the drinking and smoking age to 21 and require students to stay in school until age 18. This would solve a lot of problems IMO.]

\- Extremely narrow, dangerous roads.

\- Double taxation (this is a US issue and really not that big a deal, just more paperwork)

\- Antiquated drug laws akin to 1980-2000 in the USA.

<comment><USER4> I agree mostly with what you've said, however:

> \- Extremely narrow, dangerous roads.

Roads are much safer in the UK than the US. [1]

UK Road Fatalities Per Year: 2.9 per 100,000

US Road Fatalities Per Year: 10.6 per 100,000

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic- related_death_rate)

<comment><USER5> That's not a good statistic. It should take distance driven in to the account. US is a big place, so it would be better to compare yourself to someone similar that drives in a similar place in US and wears the seatbelt.

<comment><USER6> > That's not a good statistic. It should take distance driven in to the > account.

Look at the per km column. It's still almost 2x higher in the US.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is welcome move by the new Home Secretary, but the thing that terrifies me the most is the end of free movement when we leave the EU. As the director of a software development business, I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers.

After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route. There are 3 major issues with this. 1. It's capped at 20k people per year. 2. We do not have the deep pockets and the legal/HR team to navigate the home office to procure such a visa 3. It does not provide sufficient guarantees for bringing and settling down a family

On top of that, we also have to contend with many structural issues that makes the UK (London in particular) a less appealing place to attract talent:

\- High cost and low quality of living in London

\- Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester)

\- UK politicians and media do not stand up for the benefits of immigration and is willing to allow blanket demonisation of immigrants to go unanswered

\- All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels)

<comment><USER8> > After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go > through the Tier 2 visa route.

How do you know that?

<comment><USER9> Politically, the Prime Minister is standing firmly behind the "End Freedom of Movement" crowd. There's been no discussion of any alternative immigration process besides the existing visa process.

It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it.

<comment><USER8> > It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most > signs point to it.

Not my understanding. Care to place a wager?

<comment><USER9> I'm not betting on anything now we've entered the math.random timeline.

Out of interest what are you expecting to see?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I used to live with someone who started a fashion B2B in London. To get her visa she had to sell her £250,000 (equivalent) flat in Korea to use as capital for the business. One thing the article does not mention is how much capital you need to invest in the UK to get this visa. It is a lot higher than you think. Anyway, her company had been up and running for 3 years and doing well when her visa renewal came up. The crazy thing was that a renewal required a new capital cash injection into the business. Now, who keeps spare capital lying around when you want to make your business a success? You usually put everything you have into the business. She had to hire a good lawyer and produce kilograms of documentation in extreme detail to get her renewal. Very stressful for her and detracted from her business. I think it's reasonable to expect to hand over company accounts, bank statements and such to prove that it is a proper business but they go way too far. It is far too arduous and stressful. The stress is the main part. You never know if your paperwork is going to land on a grumpy persons Monday morning desk.

<comment><USER11> It would appear that for Australia you currently require at least AU$1.5 million (US$1.1mm) for an investment visa, and there's no other type of business startup visa you can get.

On the other hand, New Zealand has a entrepreneur visa that only requires NZ$100,000 (US$70k) of capital, as well as the Global Impact Visa through the Edmund Hillary Fellowship [1], which requires no capital at all beyond living costs for 1 year.

[1] [https://www.ehf.org/givs](https://www.ehf.org/givs)

<comment><USER12> It's only €4,500 in the Netherlands for the US citizens:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'd launch my startup in the UK after Brexit because...?

<comment><USER14> Your market is only the UK and you don't want to import any materials, and the UK has all the talent you want, and you're wealthy enough that increased cost of living isn't going to be a huge negative. Otherwise I'd steer well clear.

<comment><USER15> A lot of talent is leaving the UK. Some of it is moving to Europe.

We have government ministers privately talking about "a meltdown" and Tory donors shorting the economy. Too many people under 30 are poor and heavily in debt.

Business confidence is low and investment is disappearing.

It feels as if Brexit is the UK's closing down sale. The question is whether the meltdown will be an extended depression, or a Zimbabwe-style total collapse.

I don't think the former is unrealistic, and latter hardly seems impossible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> A real startup visa gives you a pathway to permanent residence. No one wants to start a company and worry that they will have to leave everything there after 3 years if something does or does not happen.

</comment><comment><USER17> No details, and the proposed start date is after the proposed Brexit day: "The expanded route will launch in Spring 2019, further details will be announced in due course."

</comment><comment><USER18> It's an interesting idea, but I think the main issue is whether a startup could get funded in the UK (or to be honest, most of Europe) the same way they can in Silicon Valley.

For example, the amount of money you can raise is often a lot less after here, with rounds being on the low side compared to the millions possible in the US. That means companies needing a decent amount of funding probably shouldn't be looking for investment in the UK, and should probably reconsider anyone in Europe in general.

They're also most hesitant to fund 'consumer' focused businesses over here compared to the US too. I remember asking where you could get investment for something like Facebook or Uber in the UK (after seeing that most entrepreneurs applying and accepted were running b2b companies), and basically being told that Techstars was probably the only viable option there. Seems like US accelerators and VCs are more likely to fund consumer focused businesses dependent on numbers and ad revenue compared to those in the UK, who prefer more of the Atlassian/Moz type approach (selling services to small companies).

But yeah, it's nice the route has been announced, just feels like we need more viable ways to raise money as well.

</comment><comment><USER19> As a EU Citizen, whose grandfather fought for the freedoms in WWII alongside British pilots, those freedoms, including Schengen area freedom of movement that UK never bother to adopt, are being thrown away and they dare ask people to apply for a visa now? Good luck with that.

<comment><USER20> > Good luck with that.

Since the Brexit vote net-migration for the UK is over half a million people, your native Poland is still suffering huge negative net-migration. "Despite Brexit" the UK attracts top talent from across the EU due to well paid jobs, culture and a business friendly environment.

Look at immigrant attitude surveys across the EU to see how much they value the UK compared to many EU countries. Italy, Poland, Hungary, Austria etc are hardly trending in the direction you may desire.

> whose grandfather fought for the freedoms in WWII alongside British pilots

The British have a huge amount of respect and gratitude for the Polish pilots and honour them annually.

<comment><USER21> There's net migration into Poland. Lots of poles are leaving for Western Europe, but even more Romanians etc. are going to Poland. Poland has been booming for quite some time. It's four times richer than it was before it joined the EU if memory serves.

That image of Poland as an unattractive place everyone wants to get away from is not really true anymore.

<comment><USER20> > There's net migration into Poland

Wrong.

Poland -0.4 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2017 est.)

[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world- factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world- factbook/geos/pl.html)

> That image of Poland as an unattractive place everyone wants to get away > from is not really true anymore.

I agree, Poland has made huge improvements and is becoming more attractive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> What's the latest for the US? Did any of the ideas of making the US more accessible for foreign tech entrepreneurs I've seen in recent years come to pass?

<comment><USER23> You can buy a green card for $500K. Sort of a better deal since it eliminates the uncertainty of visa renewal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> If it is the same old entrepreneur visa, then one of the requirements is having £200K in the bank which means its not for early startups rather for well established or well-funded ones.

<comment><USER25> or more accurately serial founders with a history of success and not for newcomers to the startup scene.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Meanwhile, the UK also wants to ID people before they are allowed to use the internet:

[https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/digital-ids-to- end-o...](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/digital-ids-to-end-online- mob-rule-and-anonymity-qq8lnwrcn)

<comment><USER27> Dont conflict one ministers opinion with the whole of the UK. Its not even something that is being debated, it would never get anywhere near a law (Even though I am sure Ms May would love it to).</comment></comment>


Ninjhax – 3DS Homebrew Exploit - <AUTHOR> http://smealum.net/ninjhax/

<comment><USER2> I don't get why Nintendo doesn't have a public SDK. Charge for it (e.g. $100 a year), and have an "Indie eShop" along with the "eShop". The open app store models works great for companies that control both hardware and software, and all video game companies fit perfectly in that niche.

It seems that it will be that way soon because MS, Sony, and Nintendo have been increasingly more open to indies in the past decade- for the very good reason that it makes business sense. It'd be very surprising if the trend reversed- and it's surprising that it's taking so long for it to reach its logical conclusion.

Particularly for Nintendo: if they make the 3DS an openly programmable computer with an app store, there could be some very unexpected apps (not video game related) that would open up new revenue streams. I believe that they've been needing that recently, and it seems unlikely that selling plastic figures is more of a viable long term strategy than Zynga freemium crap.

<comment><USER3> Nintendo _like_ closed - the "Seal of Quality" approval is what they perceive as dragging gaming back out of the Atari-induced crash of '84\. Of course it's been 30 years since then, but they're still very hot on control - for example they won't have _The Binding of Isaac_ even though it'd probably sell pretty well because it's "blasphemous".

I don't see it happening, ever, without a major culture shift there.

<comment><USER4> Nintendo _wouldn 't_ allow Isaac on their systems, but two years later the developers of the remake are teasing 3DS and Wii U versions.

[https://twitter.com/tyronerodriguez/status/53190754526770380...](https://twitter.com/tyronerodriguez/status/531907545267703808)

Either Nintendo have lowered their standards or the increased popularity of the game makes the potential backlash a worthwhile risk.

<comment><USER5> Nintendo allows games like _Senran Kagura_ to be published on the 3DS, even outside of Japan, so while I'd be happy to be proven wrong, I really doubt that they had any kind of moral dilemma about The Binding of Isaac.

I think you guys are forgetting that Isaac was a _Flash_ game. Porting it to _any_ mobile platform would have required a C or C++ rewrite... which, hey, what do you know, was just released as The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth...

<comment><USER4> The specific reason they gave was "questionable religious content", and none of the religious themes were toned down in the remake.

[http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/02/29/bindin...](http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/02/29/binding- of-isaac-blocked-from-3ds-due-to-quot-questionable-religious-content- quot.aspx)

<comment><USER5> Oops, my mistake.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Unfortunately you won't be able to snag a copy easily, apparently this has been out for 3 days.

Interesting watching the supply and demand effects of this. It was a previously unknown 3DS game, ~$5 in whatever your local currency. Now it's $50-100 if you can find it.

<comment><USER7> I just confirmed it's on the eShop for $39.99 (via search) in the 'U' region. I haven't bought it, so maybe it would fail if I tried.

<comment><USER8> I went to download it from the eShop about an hour ago and it said that its currently only available from your local game store. I'm pretty sure that means Nintendo pulled it because of this vulnerability, but hey, I would probably pull it as well if I was Nintendo. I'm curious to see if its available for purchase for other people besides me.

<comment><USER9> AFAIK, it was never up in the eShop anywhere but Japan, where it (is going to be/has been) pulled.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Over a QR code that you scan? I have to express my admiration for the elegance of that exploit. Very nice work.

Nintendo are not going to like it. (However it cannot be used for piracy at the moment; you'd need a user mode -> kernel privilege escalation as well, and no-one's waving one of those around.) It'll be interesting to see what results of this, aside from the price of unpatched versions of Cubic Ninja skyrocketing of course and Nintendo pulling that from the Japanese eShop (according to smea, the only one where it was available?).

</comment><comment><USER10> This is all really exciting! I order the required game before they get impossible to acquire (maybe I'm already too late, the shop said 3-4 weeks waiting time).

I programmed the GBA as a teenager, and this brings back memories. I'd love for a homebrew scene to grow around the 3DS.

</comment><comment><USER11> Already off of the Japanese e-shop so I suppose I'll be left out, but this is neat and hopefully it picks up steam.

</comment><comment><USER12> Does anyone know of documentation on how the exploit functions? i.e. what the vulnerability in Ninjhax is?

<comment><USER13> We don't have exact details, but 'cubic ninja' has a fairly extensive level designer, and there is obviously a buffer overflow in the level loading code.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Mobile app devs making $1,000+/month on your app(s), how did you do it? - <AUTHOR>

I think there are a lot of people here on HN that are interested in making consistent revenue on the side. If you have a mobile app that is making about $1,000/month or more, please share any details and advice for others looking to do so. <comment><USER2> We're a bootstrapped indy app shop with a few iOS apps that are making over the $1k/month threshold. We focus on making great apps for kids of all ages, and we've worked hard over 4 years to build a base of loyal parents and kids. I wish there were some secret sauce we had to share, but it's a lot of the basics that have worked for us:

\- build great products

\- find ways to effectively cross-sell to your users

\- go above and beyond in responding to support inquiries

\- track, test and optimize your marketing spend

\- enhance and refine the apps that get traction in the market

In our experience, it's also not quite as simple as IAP vs No IAP or Ads vs No Ads. We've had paid apps hit the $1k/month threshold, and we've had paid apps fail to do so. Same with IAP. Same with ads. The overall market seems to be moving full speed ahead towards a freemium model, but there's still the opportunity to get traction with a niche audience and have a paid app pull in over $1k/month.

Happy to answer any follow-up/detailed questions, email is in my profile.</comment>


Tracing vs. Partial Evaluation: Comparing Meta-Compilation for Interpreters - <AUTHOR> http://stefan-marr.de/papers/oopsla-marr-ducasse-meta-tracing-vs-partial-evaluation/

<comment><USER2> It's an exciting time to be working in programming languages: industry is finally taking formal work in verification seriously, mainstream languages have nice type-theoretic features (e.g. Scala) and older languages retrofit them, finally a realistic C/C++ successor is on the horizon (Rust), mature tools like LLVM make it easy to build optimising compilers with relative ease, and fancy tools like meta-tracing make interpreters fast, so inventing new languages stops being a pain.

<comment><USER3> > so inventing new languages stops being a pain

Now we need to convince programmers that learning new languages is not a pain and we'll live in a perfect world :-)</comment></comment>


Who is Hiring Remote Workers? (May 2011) - <AUTHOR>

Similar to the "Who is Hiring" thread, but please remote positions only.<p>[ N.B.: Thread created because general who is hiring thread was very large last month and this permits better filtering, saving time for HN members, as shown in the past. ] <comment><AUTHOR> CoderBuddy welcomes remote workers.

Our goal is to revolutionize software development. Our founder is a pioneer of social networking (Ryze) and founding investor in Napster. Our angel investors include Internet entrepreneurs who have sold their startups to Google (pre- IPO), Microsoft, Yahoo, Fox, etc., as well as 500 Startups.

Technologies we use include Python, Google App Engine, Django, AJAX, AWS. Math ability is a plus. We're looking for a front-end developer, server-side developer, developer evangelist / social media fanatic, and a part-time or full-time designer.

We're particularly focused on recruiting in Latin America (for timezone and other reasons), though we'd still consider other folks. Our existing team members are primarily in Panama and Brazil.

</comment><comment><USER2> Posted previously on hiring threads and received a good response from the HN community. Needless to say, still looking for someone to help with my project to catalog every product in existence. It will be a non-profit service however I'd like to build for profit tools around it if possible. E-mail is in my profile.</comment>


Four Worthless Samsung Galaxy Tab Reviews and One Useful - <AUTHOR> http://brooksreview.net/2010/11/4-suck/ <comment><USER2> it's also curious that some of them (notably Gizmodo) found the software to be a complete mess, whereas other found it to be nearly as slick as Apple.

Is this journalistic bias, or is there a background process or bug that was affecting some reviewers and not others?

<comment><USER3> The default for the Flash plug-in should be onDemand (aka FlashBlock). I love having Flash on my phone, but yeah if you have it on all the time it is going to seriously bog down the device. The perfect medium is ondemand where you can enable it when you want and need it, but disable it otherwise.

Every review where the browser was ever described as "slow" had Flash turned perma on. The Android 2.2 browser is the fastest of the bunch, and the Tab has one of the fastest CPUs, so it's the only explanation.

Samsung and others need to push back against Adobe on this. The Flash thing is a good option in the bag, but it's hurting reviews.

Other than that, sometimes what is a critical deficiency for one reviewer just really doesn't matter much to another.

I have zero interest in the Tab. I think it's a premature product, and I don't know why someone would get it over an iPad.

Having said that, the Gizmodo review is _terrible_ , and it is, by far, the outlier: Everyone else is generally positive, and then you have the over the top criticisms of Gizmodo.

Like-

 _Which means, conversely, that there's almost no added benefit to using the Tab over a phone. It's not big enough. Web browsing doesn't have greater fidelity. I don't get more out of Twitter. A magazine app would be cramped."_

Aside from the improved resolution (or does an iPhone 4 not have more "fidelity" than a 3GS?), 7" is a _world_ different than 3.5-4.0". Perhaps it's just that I actually browse on my phone a lot, but I find this criticism oof Gimzodo's bizarre and...well...a bit "pick up the talking points from Steve Jobs". You know the whole ridiculous "sandpaper your fingers" bit.

If 7" isn't usable, then what the hell are people bothering paying good money for 3.5" iPhones for? Clearly they're _completely_ unusable.

<comment><USER4> No-one's saying 'too small is useless' and '7" is too small'.

The complaint is that 7" is in a no-mans-land between pocketable-and-good- enough and something that justifies being carried in a bag (better for more complex tasks and/or longer sessions).

Gizmodo is arguing that the Galaxy isn't _better_ than a pocketable device, except for reading/browsing/video. But at the point that you're dealing with a secondary unpocketable device, the Galaxy has no advantage over the iPad except weight and Flash support that you wind up leaving disabled by default because it causes usability problems.

So unless flash-based browsing is a must and barely-better content consumption is enough to justify carrying a second device in a bag, it's very hard to make a case for the Galaxy.

<comment><USER3> _The complaint is that 7" is in a no-mans-land between pocketable-and-good- enough and something that justifies being carried in a bag_

That's Steve Jobs angle because Apple currently makes an 10" iPad, and now have a black hole between it and the iphone. As someone who uses PMPs and internet appliances, though, I find it to be an incredible lie.

Having a much lighter, smaller, easily holdable-in-one-hand device == a HUGE advantage. The Kindle carries big advantages over the iPad for the same reason.

 _So unless flash-based browsing is a must and barely-better content consumption is enough to justify carrying a second device in a bag, it's very hard to make a case for the Galaxy._

I doubt many people plan on getting one to carry in a bag. This will primarily be an internet appliance, either kept at the office or on the bedtime side table or coffee table. The idea that someone is going to tote it around is ridiculous, though it's just as ridiculous that people are going to tote around an iPad and use it at, for instance, a coffee shop.

<comment><USER4> > _"Having a much lighter, smaller, easily holdable-in-one-hand device == a > HUGE advantage."_ It's an advantage, potentially large, depending on what > you want from the tablet. If you want one-handed reading, yes, it's a huge > advantage.

It's not a lie, it's a personal, subjective assessment.

> _"The idea that someone is going to tote it around is ridiculous, though > it's just as ridiculous that people are going to tote around an iPad and use > it at, for instance, a coffee shop."_

Given that people _do_ tote around their ipad from home to work, to meetings, to coffee shops, to friends houses, I don't think it's at all ridiculous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If I cared _that_ much about typing, then I'd probably be thinking about using my favourite 3rd party Android keyboard, which renders a review of the included keyboard(s) moot to some degree.

I'd also question whether feeling "like a total dorkface while typing" is classed as a usability issue.

<comment><USER6> What keyboard is that, by the way? I've heard there are some good options in that area, but I find Swype fantastic to type with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Most tech journalism (online and off) is terrible. Often nothing more than rehashing press releases spattered with some superficial observations. If it still gets views and ad dollars why work harder?</comment>


There's more to China's Great Firewall than technology  - <AUTHOR> http://imagethief.com/2010/03/theres-more-to-the-great-firewall-than-technology/

<comment><USER2> It's difficult to run an internet-based business in China. Not impossible, but difficult.

If you're hosting inside China, then you've got to get a license from the government to run a website. To get said license, you must comply with all of the regulatory restrictions, which basically means total governmental access. As the article says, you are liable for anything that your users do, so it's in your best interest to self-police. For extra fun, the laws aren't all published and can change at any time.

You've also got all the issues of running a corporation in China, which requires a _very_ different skillset than the U.S. or Europe. Corrupt government officials combined with savage (and well-connected) competitors is the norm. Plus, rule of law is weak. Get ready for some real hardball.

Hosting in Hong Kong or Korea is easier, but then you're susceptible to the Great Firewall. If you're on the government shitlist for any reason, your website just goes _poof_ for all your customers. You'll probably also have difficulty getting money from inside China to outside China.

There's definitely people that make it work, and my hat's off to them. However, for most people the U.S. and Europe has a heck of a lot less friction.</comment>


Thinking,"Ah Firesheep?? No one is using it" 129,000 downloads in 1 day. - <AUTHOR> http://twitter.com/#!/mikkohypponen/statuses/28796101958 <comment><USER2> Means people (like myself) tried to use it. It wasn't immediately obvious how to get the damn thing to work once I got it installed so I moved on to a new shiny.</comment>


Updating the Windows Console Colors - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/08/02/updating-the-windows-console-colors/ <comment><USER2> It's sad to see how many news outlets misreported this as CMD.EXE ( _The Register_ ) or the "Command Prompt" (several others). It is of course the colour scheme of _console windows_ (managed by CONHOST) that is being updated. And only newly minted ones, at that.

* [http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console....](http://jdebp.eu./FGA/a-command-interpreter-is-not-a-console.html)

I wonder whether there's some sort of fad about console window colour schemes that is currently sweeping Microsoft.

* [https://www.hanselman.com/blog/GetSolarizedAwesomeCommandPro...](https://www.hanselman.com/blog/GetSolarizedAwesomeCommandPromptColorsForVSVSCodeCmdPowerShellAndMore.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER3> I remember doing it with DOS and ansi.sys and then enter escape codes with prompt etc.

<comment><USER2> You wouldn't have done what is being done here with ANSI.SYS. This isn't picking one of 16 colours. This is altering _what those 16 colours display as_ : the 24-bit colours that the 16-colour palette maps to.

It's all about what colour "blue" is, _again_. (-:

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14927398](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14927398)</comment></comment>


For the First Time, Wind on the Plains Supplied More Than Half Region's Power - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-13/wind-on-the-plains-supplied-more-than-half-region-s-power-needs <comment><USER3> That's because there's not much load in that area. America's best wind power belt is north from the Texas panhandle up to Canada.[1] But there are no big cities in that region.

The US thus needs more long DC power lines. The technology is already in use in China. The Zhundong-Sichuan power line goes 2600km. It's a DC line at 1.1 megavolts carrying 10 gigawatts. That technology could easily carry power from the wind belt to the rest of the US.

[1] [http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/80m_wind/USwind300dpe4-11.jpg](http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/80m_wind/USwind300dpe4-11.jpg)

<comment><USER4> It was also at 4:30am on a Sunday morning.

<comment><USER5> This is of course expected, and not a knock on the achievement at all. Wind is in its early days, and growing quickly. There's only so much installed capacity, so it's going to reach it's peak percentage of the energy mix when the demand is lowest. And it will only do that if its the cheapest available energy.

Also, wind tends to be higher at night-time, which makes them a good complement to solar. Getting to >50% is something that many many many people have doubted is possible at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The runaway favorite in wind energy is Denmark, where wind turbines, predominantly offshore-based, produced 44% of the total energy production in 2016.

[https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2](https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=2)

However, wind energy production is remarkably volatile with the minimum and maximum average hourly production per day being two orders of magnitude apart: 912.7 MWh (min) vs 102.6 GWh (max).

[https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=24](https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=24)

They started incentivizing solar generation since it is counter-seasonal compared to wind, wind is stronger in winter months.

[https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=5](https://apps.axibase.com/slider/energinet-2016/?slide=5)

This is not sufficient however, so sufficient reserved conventional capacity and interconnects to Norway (hydro) and Germany (gas) is something that helps them even out production on abnormal days.

<comment><USER7> Hydro + Wind + Solar is a powerfull mix. Hydro tends to have fixed power per year, and a lot of flexibility when you release that power. Solar matches the daily demand in most areas, though Denmark is very far north to produce solar they can import solar from the south.

Wind is really cheap and provides some power 24/7 but does not match the demand curve. So even then you still needs some backup power either from pumped hydro or peaking power plants.

IMO, the real downside is the electric grid becomes even more complex to manage and takes real investments to handle shifting supply.

<comment><USER8> Real investment usually means lots of real jobs. So win win.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This quote reveals the actual progress:

'"Ten years ago we thought hitting even a 25 percent wind-penetration level would be extremely challenging, and any more than that would pose serious threats to reliability," Bruce Row, Southwest Power Pool's vice president of operations, said in the statement. "Now we have the ability to reliably manage greater than 50 percent. It's not even our ceiling."'

</comment><comment><USER10> It amazes me how humans constantly have sheer lack of will power to solve some global issues. For example, according to this pie [1], electric car is still a car indirectly running on fossil fuels.

For fun, let's think for a second how much solar panels does it take to power planet Earth. After rough calculation it's about 496805 km2, which is approximately an area of Spain. This calculation is based on consumption predicion of 198 PWh per year in 2030, and average solar energy of 1000W/m2 with 20% efficiency and 70% sunny days a year. Of course, this is an ideal "world is at peace and there is always somewhere sun shinning" model and it uses today's best available technologies. Storage and transmission system errection would pose a cooperation challenge on a global scale. Just morning food for thought...

[1] [http://www.tsp-data-portal.org/Breakdown-of-Electricity- Gene...](http://www.tsp-data-portal.org/Breakdown-of-Electricity-Generation- by-Energy-Source#tspQvChart)

<comment><USER11> But your car is also a battery and you could charge it using excess home solar.

I personally think the answer is to expand nuclear power. Current and next generation plants are way safer than the designs used for Cherynobl, Three Miles or Fukushima .

<comment><USER12> Nuclear power seems cleaner, but when you take under consideration things like waste fuel storage it simply does not make much sense.. Yes, it's a great short term solution, but what if in 500 years there is nobody to take care of all of the spent fuel, and clean up all of the nuclear power plant sites?

<comment><USER13> In 500 years the fuel will have decayed to near-harmlessness. It'd still be a toxic heavy metal, so you don't want to eat it, but simply standing next to it isn't going to kill you.

There's also the little detail that we're using the least efficient fuel cycle imaginable. More efficient ones, e.g. involving breeder reactors, wouldn't produce nearly as much waste.

<comment><USER12> What if just one of the almost 500 power plants goes into a meltdown after a disaster/asteroid strike/pandemic . How long will it take for the fuel to become harmless? 20k years?

<comment><USER14> Compare how many people are killed, let alone animals per unit of energy produced with Wind as compared to Nuclear. Wind is far more deadly to humans (from accidents) & animals than the public is lead to believe. Nuclear despite its accidents is far less lethal towards the environment around it.

Wind is only a third as deadly as coal apparently, which isn't too great in my book: [http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/29/forget- eag...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/29/forget-eagle-deaths- wind-turbines-kill-humans/#3236c8893c86)

Also: [http://firsttoknow.com/in-october-2013-two-engineers- became-...](http://firsttoknow.com/in-october-2013-two-engineers-became- trapped-on-a-burning-wind-turbine-this-was-their-final-picture/)

<comment><USER15> however, the article is saying "coal is the biggest killer in U.S. energy at 15,000 deaths per trillion kWhrs produced, while nuclear is the least at zero. Wind energy kills a mere 100 people or so per trillion kWhrs, "

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> We're looking to expand [http://www.electricitymap.org](http://www.electricitymap.org) to the US in order to properly visualise this. Can anyone help? I'm looking for volunteers to help here: [https://github.com/corradio/electricitymap/issues/143](https://github.com/corradio/electricitymap/issues/143)

</comment><comment><USER17> Has anyone done any back-of-the-napkin math on how much solar PV we can harness before we start contributing to _actually warming_ the planet? Since it turns mostly-reflected-back-to-space radiation into absorbed-onto-the- surface radiation.

Is there a point at which we need to focus more on wind? (since wind arises from already-being-absorbed-by-surface radiation)

</comment><comment><USER18> Yet they account for a modest percentage of the total production. This is where PowerPack and other grid storage technologies would need to come in - <USER2> counter the variability of renewable production. Pumped hydro would be cost effective per MWh stored, but there's limited chance for building that.

<comment><USER19> There are other mechanisms that can also help ameliorate the challenges of intermittent ("non-dispatchable") power generation:

\- Long-range (generally, DC) power transmission lines. China is investing heavily here.

\- Similarly, inter-grid connections. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tres_Amigas_SuperStation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tres_Amigas_SuperStation) \- Superconductors!

\- Diversified renewables. Solar works on the stifling windless summer days; wind works on those nasty drifting snow winter nights.

\- Dispatched demand. For example, industrial facilities can be incentified to shut down power-hungry processes on days with less available electricity, in exchange for cheaper electricity on other days.

\- Of course, 'peaker' natural gas turbines. A surprising number of gas power plants are used less than 10% of the time...

<comment><USER20> In the few factories I have worked the power hungry processes cannot be stopped on demand (eg. one day notice), as it would waste products, it would mess up minimum stockpile lean manufacturing, as the process cannot be interrupted, it could often damage equipment, and usually restarting these processes is very expensive in terms of energy (eg. Reheating a kiln)

The renewables are simply not predictable enough for this, that is why nuclear, an later fusion power will have its place in the energy mix in the foreseeable future.

<comment><USER19> You're right; many of these facilities go so far as to install backup Diesel generation on-site.

There are plenty of opportunities for demand-shaving, though. The simplest one is to simply reduce the HVAC load by adjusting the thermostat.

I agree we need some nuclear, too, at least in the short term; it's not an either-or proposition. We need nuclear AND renewables AND smart grid AND storage.

<comment><USER21> The paper mill near here has one of the larger power plants (biomass, burns waste wood) in the region. It uses more power than the nearby small towns combined.

The best way to get industrial consumers to switch is to drive down costs. We're certainly nowhere near 250 Megawatt-hour batteries being cheap and commonplace, but there are projects of that scale that have been announced (in particular I'm thinking of the Vanadium flow battery being installed in China).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Ah good, perhaps we will soon be able to dump our asinine requirements around ethanol (which, I think, only exist because of Iowa's unique position in choosing Presidential candidates.)

<comment><USER23> Only if we can get more EVs on the road to reduce petrol consumption.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> It is worth noting Texas has it's own grid seperated from the west and east grids supplying most of the rest of the world. I had a relative who was a project manager on some of the big wind installs in Texas, but for some reason I can't remember his main criticism of the project which caused him to move over to solar work...

<comment><USER25> They're building some huge interconnect HVDC lines to the rest of the country from the Panhandle region. There's a 4GW, 600kv line slated for completion in 2018 that's going to bring Texas and Oklahoma wind power to the TVA.

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/huge- transmission...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/huge-transmission- line-will-send-oklahoma-wind-power-to-tennessee/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> 4:30 a.m. on Sunday

Seriously people? Many places are throwing away energy at this time. This is like a participation award.

> The power grid that supplies a corridor stretching from Montana to the Texas > Panhandle was getting 52.1 percent of its power from wind at 4:30 a.m. on > Sunday, Little Rock, Arkansas-based Southwest Power Pool Inc. said in a > statement Monday.

<comment><USER27> I fail to see why the time it happened is relevant here. We're talking about generating capacity here, not draw. The wind blows around the clock, this could have happened at 4:30 PM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I quit thinking about this energy source after re-opening my chemistry book.

You need ~400M-500M tons of steel to make 2-3 Terawatt Hours of Electricity

Disclaimer: My family owns a steel plant, so I'm bias in that I think the carbon emissions required to produce steel wind turbines don't make sense/don't match the intention of building wind turbines.

<comment><USER29> Where does that "~400M-500M tons of steel" number come from?

The turbines tend to have composite blades and steel towers. Actual studies put the amount of energy returned by wind turbines at ~18 times the energy invested: [http://www.theoildrum.com/node/1863](http://www.theoildrum.com/node/1863)

And if not wind turbines, then what is your preferred low-carbon energy source?

<comment><USER28> You have to think bigger about materials level embodied energy.

If you go about looking at energy density without evaluating the feedstock materials and embodied energy, your maths won't achieve the desired result.

I was doing the math on the back of a napkin, but there's quite a few papers on the topic.

www.vaclavsmil.com/wp-content/uploads/15.WINDTURBINE.pdf

I might be off by 25M-50M tons, but I think the overall assertion is valid.

My belief about how to fix the problems with energy grid: [http://engineersf.com/things-humanity-could-do-right-now- to-...](http://engineersf.com/things-humanity-could-do-right-now-to-save- planet-earth-from-climate-change/)

Any sort of libertarian or free-market approach to this problem will likely fail. This is one of those mission critically deal breakers where human behavior can't be modulated in a desired direction.

<comment><USER29> From that very paper you linked:

"the aggregate installed wind power of about 2.5 terawatts would require roughly 450 million metric tons [of steel]"

That's terawatts (nameplate power capacity) NOT terawatt-hours! A very important distinction since the steel is a onetime cost for the life of the turbine and can potentially be recycled at EOL.

Yes, you need currently available usually fossil energy to make renewable sources, including PV and nuclear. _What is the alternative?_ Yes, embodied energy / EROEI is important, but it has to be considered fairly across all technologies. Including battery storage and nuclear plants, and the replacement of petrol vehicles with EVs.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Titles are Toxic - <AUTHOR> http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2013/03/19/titles_are_toxic.html

<comment><USER2> Anyone who thinks resumes are dead or nearly so, even in the field of technology, is out of touch with 90% of people working in it.</comment>


Fizz Buzz codegolf challenge in 15 languages - <AUTHOR> http://www.hackerrank.com/fizzbuzz <comment><USER2> Login seems borked, but here's my Perl at 59 chars (141 points):

        print(($_%3?"":"Fizz").($_%5?"":"Buzz")||$_,"\n")for 1..100

<comment><AUTHOR> What happens on login?

<comment><USER2> I tried the github option, and the first time I tried, it barfed about "unauthorized credentials" or some such after the redirect back from github, bringing me to another hackerrank login page. I tried it again, and it choked right away with the same message. Third time and it asks to "Confirm Submission", but hung after hitting yes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Why does authorizing with github need permission to "Update my profile"?

</comment><comment><USER4> 71 characters (129 points) with JavaScript. I actually wrote this quite a while back (and have also posted it on HN before) - code golf is pretty fun every now and then!

        for(var i=0;i++<100;console.log(((i%3?'':'Fizz')+(i%5?'':'Buzz'))||i));

For anyone else interested in doing code golf with JavaScript, here's a goldmine of byte-saving techniques:

<https://github.com/jed/140bytes/wiki/Byte-saving-techniques>

<comment><USER5> I came up with

        for(i=0;i<100;)console.log((++i%3?"":"Fizz")+(i%5?"":"Buzz")||i)

earlier. 64 characters, because I don't have "var ", an extra set of parens, and a semicolon. Worse syntax, but hey, it's code golf.

<comment><USER4> I knew I could also drop the "var ", but I like to operate within the 140bytes challenge rules that say you're not allowed to leak into the global scope. I'll give you the 3 chars from the parens and semicolon, though - I got caught up with the idea of "hey, you can do this whole thing inside the for statement itself!" back when I did this!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Go (golang) - 157 characters/43 score

      package main
      import(o"fmt")
      func main(){s:=o.Print
      for i:=1;i<101;i++{f,b:=i%3==0,i%5==0
      if!(f||b){s(i)}else{if f{s("Fizz")}
      if b{s("Buzz")}}
      s("\n")}}

Compiles and runs fine but obviously not go fmt compliant. I feel bad for even attempting it.

Seems like the score should vary by language, Go (thankfully) makes it hard to be _too_ terse. And of course in Java you're doomed prior to writing a single line of real logic code

<comment><USER7> Couldn't resist:

      class Solution{public static void main(String[] a){for(int i=0;++i<101;)System.out.println(i%15==0?"FizzBuzz":i%3==0?"Fizz":i%5==0?"Buzz":i);}}

143 characters, 57 score

<comment><USER6> Nice. Lack of the ternary operator is the big sticking point I have with really compact Go solutions.

OTOH, in real world code I'm glad to see it gone.

Also just noticed the () on my import aren't needed, first one would have to be a space anyway but second one can be removed to get the character count down by one and a bit more jiggering of the if/else logic can shave another character:

      package main
      import o"fmt"
      func main(){s:=o.Print
      for i:=1;i<101;i++{if f,b:=i%3==0,i%5==0;(f||b){if f{s("Fizz")}
      if b{s("Buzz")}}else{s(i)}
      s("\n")}}

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> fizzbuzz and challenge in the same sentence? After the last guy I interviewed couldn't code Fibonacci or even explain how to do it, I think I lost my faith.

</comment><comment><USER9> I don't understand why this only gets a score of 1:

        static String[] c = { "", "FizzBuzz", "Buzz", "Fizz" };
        public static void main(String[] args)
        {
            for(int i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
            {
                c[0] = ""+i;
                int f = ((int)Math.ceil((i%3)/3.0))+1;
                int b = ((int)Math.ceil((i%5)/5.0))*2;
                System.out.println(c[(f+b)%4]);
            }
        }

<comment><USER10> Because it's huge and this is a code golf challenge?

<comment><USER9> =\ No point in trying with Java then?

<comment> Tuna-Fish You can do some decent golfing in Java. For improvement, how about removing all the casts, FP arithmetic, everything from Math, etc?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Bit confused by the ruby version. The signature you're given is:

        #!/bin/ruby

        # Head ends here
        def fizzbuzz_solve n

        end

        # Tail starts here

I presumed this meant you were supposed to return a value of n, fizz, buzz or fizzbuzz for the value of n. When I tried to compile I got a score of 0 though. What are you supposed to do with the value of n, solve fizzbuzz for 1..n ?

<comment><USER9> In other languages n is the number between 1-100 passed into the method. The loop is outside of fizzbuzz_solve.

<comment><USER11> I presumed you just return the value and that the print was in the outer loop, seems you need to include the print statement in your method.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry this is wrong. Removed the templates. You've to output from 1-100.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The obvious scala implementation is 160 chars and works locally, but the site claims I score 0 for it:

         object Solution {def main(args: Array[String])=1 to 100 map {x=>System.out.print(if(x%3>0&&x%5>0)x else if(x%5>0)"Buzz" else if(x%3>0)"Fizz" else "FizzBuzz")}}

<comment><USER13> When I tried out the site, it gave me a score of 0 for submissions that compiled but produced the wrong output.

I've never written scala before but it looks like your logic is wrong.

Edit: I tweaked your code and got a score of 34

       object Solution {def main(args: Array[String])=1 to 100 map {x=>System.out.println(if(x%3==0&&x%5==0)"FizzBuzz" else if(x%5==0)"Buzz" else if(x%3==0)"Fizz" else x)}}

</comment></comment><comment> nappy-doo My best C solution (scores a 96):

#define d printf(

main(i){i<101?(!(i%3)?d"Fizz"):0)|(!(i%5)?d"Buzz"):0)?d"\n"):d"%d\n",i),main(i+1):0;}

<comment><USER14> you can get rid of the !() if you reverse the ?:

      #define d printf(
      main(i){i<101?(i%3?0:d"Fizz"))|(i%5?0:d"Buzz"))?d"\n"):d"%d\n",i),main(i+1):0;}

<comment> nappy-doo excellent, missed that. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> How do you get javascript to work? I tried `process.stdout.write`, `console.log`, but the score is always zero.

Other issues:

\- The "Solve FizzBuzz" button doesn't go anywhere if you are logged in, neither does "The Scenario" up top.

\- Forum doesn't work (please fill in all the required fields - they already are)

\- Signout link doesn't work

<comment><USER15> process.stdin.resume(); process.stdin.setEncoding('ascii');

process.stdin.on('data', function (input) { numbers = input.split("\n"); sum = parseInt(numbers[0]) + parseInt(numbers[1]) process.stdout.write(sum+"\n"); });

this is a sample code that takes a two digit integer and prints its sum. Can you use this format and see if it works?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> "You Scored: 56.00000000000001". :-)

</comment><comment><USER17> I don't know why I'm such a sucker for this sort of thing. I couldn't get it to score me, but here's 104 chars of Clojure:

        (for [i(range 100):let[d #(= (mod i %) 0)]](println(cond(d 15)"FizzBuzz"(d 3)"Fizz"(d 5)"Buzz":else i)))

</comment><comment><USER18> Erlang version (more verbose):

        lists:map(fun(N)->io:fwrite("~s~n",[if N rem 15==0->"FizzBuzz";N rem 3==0->"Fizz";N rem 5==0->"Buzz";true->integer_to_list(N)end])end,lists:seq(1,100)).

</comment><comment><USER19> It seems like an neat idea! But I'm not I'm sure if I would make whitespace count as characters. Seem like that punishes good formatting. I also scored 56.00000000000001 :D (I tried the Perl one)

<comment><USER20> 118 for my PHP solution, will try and check if my Python skills can beat it.. btw I am not able to login and getting too many error .. HN effect ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, fixing it. Can you try?

<comment><USER20> same error ..will try after some time

Update : Logged in, Takes forever to submit

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Haskell - 112 bytes / 88 score

      a="Fizz"
      b="Buzz"
      i%j=mod i j==0
      f i
       |i%15=a++b
       |i%5=b
       |i%3=a
       |True=show i
      main=mapM_ (putStrLn.f) [1..100]

</comment><comment><USER22> seems to be dead ... wonder if they are running the code submitted on the webserver & people have submitted busy loops or somesuch

<comment><USER15> Hi,

can you check now. It is working. We run it in our codecheckers and not on webservers.

<comment><USER22> Cool, much faster now :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Couldn't get it to run but here is my best in ruby:

1.upto(100).each {|x|s="#{'Fizz' if x%3 == 0}#{'Buzz' if x%5 == 0}";s=="" ? p(x): p(s)}

</comment><comment><USER24> After 10 minutes, I was able to log in, but now I can't access the fizzbuzz page ):. Maybe I'll try later.

<comment><USER24> <https://www.hackerrank.com/fizzbuzz/level> redirects to <https://www.hackerrank.com/fizzbuzz>

<comment><USER25> Fixed. Can you try it now?

<comment><USER24> It works, but I can't submit. the POST to [https://www.hackerrank.com/rest/contests/fizzbuzz/challenges...](https://www.hackerrank.com/rest/contests/fizzbuzz/challenges/fizzbuzz/submissions) eventually times out after 10 minutes.

I can however compile and verify my solution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> for(1..100){$_%15==0?print"FizzBuzz":$_%5==0?print"Buzz":$_%3==0?print"Fizz":print}

Is my best perl golf so far... wrote this one eons ago. The site doesn't seem to work well however and it won't let me submit it. Would obviously be shorter with "say" instead of "print."

<comment><USER27>
        say (1..100).map({ $_ %% (3|5) ?? ("Fizz" if $_ %% 3) ~ ("Buzz" if $_ %% 5) !! $_ }).join("\n")

is my quick stab at a Perl 6 version. About the same length if I take out the spaces (which I'd rather not!).

<comment><USER26> Perl 6 is so cool!

I like the bit

      $_ %% (3|5)

A pretty nifty way to condense multiple values into a single test.

I don't always perl, but when I do sometimes I like to golf because it's fun.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> my best c++ solution scores 75 points with 126 characters

        #include<iostream>
        main(){for(int i=0;i++<100;){if(i%5&&i%3)std::cout<<i;std::cout<<(i%3?"":"Fizz")<<(i%5?"":"Buzz")<<'\n';}}

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just added a sample output. I think some of the code snippets are missing the "\n"

</comment><comment><USER26> See also, <http://codegolf.com>

</comment><comment><USER29> My best malbolge version:

        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<comment><USER30> I'd never heard of malbolge until last night, when it played a role in the mystery on CBS' "Elementary" (an excellent series, BTW). Kind of weird to encounter such an obscure language twice in under 24 hours.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Looks like I can't submit my code. I can run it, but not submit it.

</comment><comment><USER32> for i in range(1,101): print "FizzBuzz" if i %3 == 0 and i % 5 == 0 else "Fizz" if i % 3 == 0 else "Buzz" if i % 5 == 0 else str(i)

Scores 69 in python but the login/signup is broken :)

<comment><USER33> OK I cheated and used google and found (60 chars):

      for i in range(1,101):print'FizzBuzz'[i*i%3*4:8--i**4%5]or i

Pastebin of my explanation: <http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=00Db30FF>

EDIT: ugh, sometimes I hate markdown, moved post to pastebin.

<comment><USER2> Awesomely ingenious use of math above. 59 if newlines count as 1.

        i=1
        while i<101:print'FizzBuzz'[i*i%3*4:8--i**4%5]or i;i+=1

<comment><USER34> I came up with a shorter way to write the first index!

      n%-3&4

unbelievably it works

<comment><USER33> haha, clever!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> 89 char in c</comment>


Delivery Startups Face Road Bumps in Quest to Capture Untapped Market - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/technology/delivery-start-ups-face-road-bumps-in-quest-to-capture-untapped-market.html?ref=business&_r=0 <comment><USER2> It is a 3-sided market with high acquisition costs and high churn on all three sides - the restaurants, the drivers and then the users.

A better business model may be to focus on one of these and provide it as a service to the others. ie. a driver/delivery network for restaurant fulfillment.

Restaurants having to set themselves up on each platform seems like a waste - there is no reason why a standards based interface for dispatch and fulfillment couldn't be built.

You can then integrate the 'best of' for each component - ex. Yelp or Google Ratings for finding restaurants & Amazon for local delivery

Being vertically integrated just doesn't feel like what this market will look like in 5-6 years - too many challenges.

</comment><comment><USER3> The biggest problem with these business models, in the long run, is they all target the same labor supply.

This is good for wages, but bad for their margins.

</comment><comment><USER4> Not surprising. Business to Consumer(B2C) is one of the most difficult things on earth.</comment>


Van Damme has got nothing on Chuck Norris - <AUTHOR> http://www.ijreview.com/2013/12/102925-chuck-norris-just-put-van-dammes-epic-volvo-ad-completely-shame/

<comment><USER2> Of course, since Chuck Norris can execute an infinite loop in less than one second.</comment>