A Surprise from the Supervolcano Under Yellowstone - <AUTHOR> https://nytimes.com/2017/10/10/science/yellowstone-volcano-eruption.html <comment><USER3> Caldera collapse volcanic eruptions the size of Yellowstone occurr at random intervals, not periodically every 100,000 years, as the article states. The last big one was the Toba eruption in Indonesia about 72,000 years ago. That one almost killed off the human race.

The Long Valley Caldera in California became more active in the 1970's. If this study's conclusions hold up under investigation and it only takes a few decades of activity before a "supervolcano" can erupt, we should monitor these caldera a bit more closely.

<comment><USER4> Wait, surely it's not entirely random? I thought we were talking about a process like earthquakes, where the actual event is unpredictable but the underlying causes add 'pressure' and gradually raise the odds.

Obviously that's predictability within a single supervolcano, not worldwide, but I'd love clarification if I've got that wrong.

<comment><USER5> The key point is:

> Caldera collapse volcanic eruptions the size of Yellowstone occurr at random > intervals

Which I take to mean that there isn't enough data about exceptional events like this to reliably predict their timing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Summary: super volcanoes can go from dormant to erupting in a human lifetime; previous estimates were it took much longer.

<comment><USER7> So, we need to be able to successfully establish a self-sufficient off-world colony in less than a human lifetime after we detect the events that precede a super-eruption. ;-)

Outlook not so good.

<comment><USER8> I see a new movie is about to be made.

There are already engineering plans to relieve the eruption. NASA has commented that a Super Volcano are a bigger threat than asteroids.

> But if more of the heat could be extracted, then the supervolcano would > never erupt. Nasa estimates that if a 35% increase in heat transfer could be > achieved from its magma chamber, Yellowstone would no longer pose a threat. > The only question is how?

[http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170817-nasas-ambitious- pla...](http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170817-nasas-ambitious-plan-to-save- earth-from-a-supervolcano)

<comment><USER9> So, some drilling and pumping water through the drilled area would help? Putting a power plant on top would be an almost-free bonus.

<comment> Harvey-Specter Yeah, that's NASA's suggestion in the article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Even a "small" eruption of a super volcano will change the climate significantly for decades. This helps motivates Elon Musk's desire to be a multi-planetary species.

It is also why I advocate additional investment in engineering solutions to surviving climate change rather than focusing entirely on CO2 mitigation. We cannot prevent a super volcano from erupting.

One of the more interesting conjectures I've heard about climate change was the relationship of sea level to magma mobility. A paper looking at the effect of the Mediterranean ocean drying out and its impact on volcanic activity[1] describes a fairly local connection.

Such a mechanism could be used to explain a systemic recovery response of the planet from periods of high average temperature. Specifically the planet has gone through periods where it has been really warm and then really cold (ice ages) and back again to warm.

[1] [http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v10/n10/full/ngeo3032.htm...](http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v10/n10/full/ngeo3032.html)

<comment><USER11> > Even a "small" eruption of a super volcano will change the climate > significantly for decades. This helps motivates Elon Musk's desire to be a > multi-planetary species.

But even the biggest conceivable eruption will leave Earth infinitely more habitable than any other known celestial body.

<comment><USER12> Exactly. It would be far far easier to build self sufficient colonies in Antarctica, or under the ocean, or even remote deserts. We don't even have the technology to do that yet. They couldn't even get the biosphere to work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Would life on earth exist if none of these super volcanoes had ever erupted?

That is, are the massive cooling effects and resulting changes to the environment required to balance natural warming?

Has anyone studied or attempted to model an earth without super volcanic events?

<comment><USER14> If the greenhouse effect did not exist, the average temperature of Earth would be -18C

So it's more correct to say that without the greenhouse effect, life would never exist on Earth, because plant life most certainly wouldn't develop in -18C and saturate the planet with oxygen.

<comment><USER13> Can there not be more than one parallel requisite for life to exist?

Like the presence of the moon, distance from the sun, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > There, they hauled rocks under the heat of the sun to gather samples, > occasionally suspending their work when a bison or a bear roamed nearby.

NYT is a horrible source for science news. Why were they hauling rocks and what did they do with their hauled rocks? I like bears and bison, but that doesn't seem important.

Another article, slightly more sensationalist but worth checking out, in my opinion:

[http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world- news/651406/yellowston...](http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world- news/651406/yellowstone-supervolcano-eruption-super-volcano-nasa-drilling- plan)

<comment><USER16> Maybe I'm missing something, but the NYT article says they were hauling rocks "to gather samples" (of "fossilized ash deposit" for analysis). The next paragraph explains that they were looking for crystals in the samples because that can help give a timeline for relevant changes in the crystal's environment:

> Ms. Shamloo later analyzed trace crystals in the volcanic leftovers, > allowing her to pin down changes before the supervolcano's eruption. Each > crystal once resided within the vast, seething ocean of magma deep > underground. As the crystals grew outward, layer upon layer, they recorded > changes in temperature, pressure and water content beneath the volcano, much > like a set of tree rings.

It's true that this is not sufficient information to allow readers to replicate the analysis at home, but it seems like a good level of introductory detail so people can decide whether they want to follow the link in the NYT article to the volcanology conference.

<comment><USER15> Hauling rocks doesn't really impart a whole lot of information. If they are going to include a bit about hauling rocks, maybe tell us about it - <USER2> of pretending it's a novel with bison and bears. You know, science journalism.

NYT is a lousy source for science journalism. How about what kind of rock? How about why they were moving rock (heavy?) instead of just taking small samples? Bison, bears, and the hot sun are prose for op-eds and novels, not an article about geology.

Heck, they could have skipped that whole sentence and it'd have been fine. I'm not outraged, it's just lousy science journalism that is an example of their continued low-quality reporting. It's just one more strike against them, so I figured I'd mention it and offer readers a second article - which wasn't much better but you can combine the two and almost have something worth reading.

<comment><USER17> I totally understand your point and agree, but these days I'm just glad to get through any article, anywhere, without glaring spelling, grammar and word usage errors.

If a science article in a major newspaper mentions actual methods used in a new line of inquiry at all, I consider it above average.

<comment><USER15> I'm retired but I am a scientist. I am technically a mathematician, but I still apply the method and use the philosophy of science in many areas of my life.

I say that because I think it gives some color to my next comment.

I have some very, very strong opinions about science journalism and the changes I've seen in the past thirty years. However, I fear my attempt to express those opinions would be sufficiently off-topic and incomplete, as my complaints are many, varied, and long.

There is still good science journalism, it exists. It just isn't all that popular. It is quite possible to have good science journalism that appeals even to moderately educated people. I know this to be true because I have seen it.

I often lament the death of the ideal which is that of the citizen scientist. It is through gritted teeth that I submit the ideal has been suplanted by citizen journalist. That is wonderful, at least in theory. However, it seems that it has resulted in fewer people paying for quality journalism and it also seems likely that this is a primary cause for the reduction in quality.

It doesn't help that the evening news now competes with reality television. In a world where deep thoughts are limited to 140 characters, sensationalism has prospered at the cost of depth.

I ain't even started... I can rant for hours about the state of scientific journalism, or journalism in general. The lack of quality editing only compounds it.

The effect this has had on education and scientific literacy is troubling. We have a populace that can more readily recognize a Kareashian than they can an equation. It isn't limited to one age group, side of the political spectrum, or the population densities of their respective communities. No, no it is not...

However, I suspect that my rant would just be preaching to the choir. I strongly suspect we are in full agreement.

I don't suppose you have a solution?

This is actually edited for brevity. I removed several paragraphs. They digressed too much, even for me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Am I the only one irritated by the writer's use of "millenniums"?

<comment><USER19> Why irritated? It's one of two correct plural forms of "millenium."

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/millennium](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/millennium)

<comment><USER20> That's literally[1] the worst argument ever.

[1] [https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/literally](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/literally)

<comment><USER20> All right, to spell it out: Merriam-Webster is not a dictionary of "correct" forms. The usage of "literally" in my post is documented in Merriam-Webster as "used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible." It would be inappropriate to use "literally" in that way in a science article in the New York Times, because the standards for writing in the New York Times are different from the standards for inclusion in the Merriam-Webster dictionary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Has anyone heard of a study of how fracking and horizontal oil drilling in the states surrounding Colorado are affecting the caldera? I would imagine all of the seismic activity they cause would have an impact.

</comment><comment><USER22> Say if the massive amounts of magma actually required to trigger these explosions were injected tonight what would the response be? Would we at least know this is happening?

<comment><USER6> Lots of smaller earthquakes is what to look for.

<comment><USER23> What about local changes in elevation? If there's a ton of new material in the crust would we observe deformation in the caldera?

<comment> compiler-guy Yes. In fact, scientists track the Yellowstone caldera's altitude and watch it "breathe", so to speak.

[https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/caldera- rises](https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/caldera-rises)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> At first I thought, "Oh lord, this is going to be a terrifying surprise and/or new and horrific way to die, melt, and explode (not in that order)."

Colour me surprised!

<comment><USER7> The volcanic winter is not much better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I picked the worst time to have a child.

Then again, I think you could reasonably say that at any point in the past hundred years or so, at least if you were living in America.

<comment><USER26> Would you rather have had a child in the 19th century, when job options for your potential child would have been limited to a) difficult farm labor, with long days, low pay, and poor working conditions, or b) difficult factory labor, with long days, low pay, and poor working conditions?

<comment><USER25> I wouldn't. But the problems of those times seemed to be on a much more human scale. Cholera might get her, or she might die in a mine, or be murdered by a nobleman in a drunken rage. Some of those things I can work to protect her against.

But a supervolcano is an inhuman threat. So is war, regular, nuclear or civil. So is climate change, if we're too late to stop its progress.

<comment><USER27> Right now is probably the safest time in human history wrt to dying in a war, on average. At least if you look at actual deaths, not potential ones from a nuclear war. Putting numbers to that last is difficult. If we assume the war is not between major powers with large numbers of nuclear weapons (i.e. assume North Korea, not Russia), then the potential death toll is in the millions to tens of millions and the probability is likely in the single digits at most, I would guess... But I welcome sources on good estimates for this.

On the other hand, in the 19th century diseases _would_ get about 1/4 to 1/2 (depending on what country you were in) of your kids before they turned 5. Check out [http://www.gapminder.org/tools/#_state_time_value=1800;&mark...](http://www.gapminder.org/tools/#_state_time_value=1800;&marker_axis/_x_which=time&domainMin:null&domainMax:null&zoomedMin:null&zoomedMax:null&scaleType=time;&axis/_y_which=child/_mortality/_0/_5/_year/_olds/_dying/_per/_1000/_born&domainMin:null&domainMax:null&zoomedMin:null&zoomedMax:null&scaleType=log;;;&chart- type=bubbles) for example. And diseases were, at the time, very much an inhuman threat that you couldn't protect against; people didn't even have a very clear understanding of why they happened, much less what to do about it until the _end_ of the 19th century.

Dying in a mine or being murdered by noblemen isn't even a blip compared to dying of good old cholera, measles, typhus, etc, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Is anyone else tired of this style of headline? I know HN prefers the original headline, but when the original headline is clickbait-y, wouldn't it be better to change the HN headline to something that encapsulates the main idea of the link?

Now that my whining is out of the way: if we had a decade of warning, I'd hope that we'd be able to figure out some engineering technique for dissipating the magma chamber heat before a catastrophic eruption.

<comment><USER29> > figure out some engineering technique for dissipating the magma chamber > heat.

There have been several proposals, some of which even allow for using the heat for generating electricity.

IIRC the problem with these approaches is that they take a few hundred years to be completed because you can't simply drill the magma chamber but rather have to advance very slowly and carefully.

A few hundred years unfortunately seems to be too large a timeframe for politics to pursue this huge undertaking in earnest.

<comment><USER7> There is an enormous amount of heat stored in there and the amount to be extracted to make any significant difference is probably more than the entire planetary demand. The good news is that we don't need to drill to the magma chamber unless we want to also dig a lava channel to the nearest ocean (2300km if you don't feel like digging through mountains, or about 1000km to Oregon's coast if you are into digging), but just somewhere near that's hot enough to boil water at some pressure.

I don't see much support for doing it in a preservation area, however.

In CA, the heat could be used to power sea-water desalination, if someone is willing to build the large 270km long pipe.

<comment><USER30> Or a superconducting power line to the coast.

<comment><USER7> You'd need to convert heat into electricity for that. Not sure how efficient modern plants are, but if you pump sea water into the well to get steam, you can process the steam for desalination after it turns the turbines.

You'll need the pipes to send the salt water back into the ocean.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Any PHP class to convert MS access tables to MySQL? - <AUTHOR>

Hi.. I am working on a web project which lets users upload ms access files, and data should be submitted to MySQL DB, and then displayed to the user in a control panel.
I can't find any PHP class that would help me do that.. or even a point where I can start from.
Any thoughts or help about that? Thanks so much in advance, Ahmed. <comment><USER2> That's not really what Hacker News is for...why don't you go to <http://stackoverflow.com> and ask there?

<comment><USER3> If you're not going to help then why even post? When someone comes across this post in their searches it's not going to help them at all and it's a waste of time. Your post is similar to people posting "Use the search function" in forums, which is also a huge waste of time.

<comment><USER4> Honestly, I thought the same thing. (Why doesn't he go to stack overflow and ask?) then I thought.

"Oh. My. God. What if he's never even heard of StackOverflow?"

So actually, the above comment isn't inappropriate in the least. A new thread in Hacker News honestly _isn't_ the right place to ask for help with programming connectivity to Microsoft Access (Hint: use ODBC).

But stack overflow is.

Quite often, the "use search" _is_ a rude response ... more often, for example in the case of Hacker News it's also about as useful as a humorous yet slightly rude colloquial comparison between two disparate entities. (eg: tits on a bull).

Anyways.

He is right. HN isn't SXCH. His comment was worded politely and may prove useful to the original poster.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Is it possible that these users could export the MS Access files to CSV? Importing CSV in to MySQL using PHP is pretty easy, but I'm not coming up with anything for doing it with MS Access files.</comment>


Siri Running On an iPhone 4 - <AUTHOR> http://www.thetechscoop.net/2011/10/31/siri-running-on-an-iphone-4/ <comment><USER2> This site almost broke my noscript plugin with its thousands of facebook this and scorecard research thats.</comment>


There's Something Funny in the Air on Mars - <AUTHOR> http://cosmos.nautil.us/short/67/theres-something-funny-in-the-air-on-mars <comment><USER2> Was anyone else able to detect any semblance of a date that this article was posted?

Personally, I think there is something intellectually dishonest about not including a publish date in a piece for anything remotely scientific. Context deeply matters.

edit: looks like it's Nov 2016, but you need to go to the parent page to see that.

<comment><USER3> I would take it a step further. I want a date on any kind of article, scientific or not. Bonus points for having separate published and last modified dates.

<comment><USER4> Someone, I think it was Copyblogger and others, convinced people that to create "evergreen content" you should take dates off articles and blog posts. The web has been worse off for this advice.

<comment><USER5> Even while you're hunting for that date you're improving their metrics :(

Having a date on the article is not an advantage here.

Unfortunately I don't see this going away anytime soon. Something like a browser plugin that notified you of article date could be helpful, but would face challenges in mass adoption.

Have you noticed the general reduction in usefulness/efficiency of web pages? I sure have. Pages turn a 100 word answer into a 10,000 word essay with 5 videos.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Mods, can we work "methane" into the headline?

</comment><comment><USER7> > In 2003 Earth-based astronomers caught glimpses of methane in the Martian > atmosphere.

Intrigued to hear about those astronomer bases not on Earth, in 2016.

<comment><USER8> Space-based platforms like the Hubble, Cassini, or Chandra.

<comment><USER7> Orbital platforms that are still operated by Earth-based astronomers, no? I don't intend to argue semantics, just think it's a poor (and somewhat funny) choice of words.

<comment><USER8> Perhaps, but that's how the platform deployment is described.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I was expecting a bunch of puns about nitrous oxide but all I got was a shitty article about methane. I must spend too much time on Reddit.

<comment><USER10> That was my first thought too - nitrous oxide on Mars. Peculiar/strange might have been better adjectives? "Funny" probably is better for SEO (like no dates on articles).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> There is no air on Mars.

</comment><comment><USER12> Methane is a very simple molecule. From what I understand it's quite likely to form if there's C, H and some heat/pressure. Since H and energy have been abundant during formation of planet's, the interesting part is that there's C on mars.

But calling it an "intriguing" discovery and talking about water and "the base for life" based on that seems like a stretch to me...

<comment><USER13> The article explains _right in the second paragraph_ why detecting methane is so intriguing.

 _If you dropped a molecule of methane into the atmosphere of Mars, it would survive about 300 years—that's how long, on average, it would take for solar ultraviolet radiation and other Martian gases to destroy the molecule. By rights, the Martian atmosphere should have been scrubbed of its methane eons ago._

<comment><USER12> Yeah, I had read that.

It could just leak out of subterrane entrapments, as they mention later in the article:

> _They must have been of Martian origin—perhaps a burp from a relatively > small and localized subsurface source to the north of the landing site. The > Martian winds would blow that methane away over several months, explaining > why the signal went away when it did._

<comment><USER14> But then keep that line of thought going. Mars has the pieces it needs to form dna like molecules, at least in some protected environments, like in the salty almost frozen water slightly under the surface, so there's a very likely possibility of life being related to or similar in process to our life on earth.

<comment><USER12> I see what you mean; we know the ingredients (necessary elements and energy) for earth-like life are there.

However, we don't know the probability of all the steps leading to life actually taking place in the given time frame. The only reference value we have is earth, so it's just one data point and hardly possible to generalize. And mathematical estimations are difficult due to way too many factors to be considered (I've never seen one actually).

At the least we can say that formation of complex structures like DNA is far more complicated and thus less likely to form than methane, by orders of magnitude. So one could argue that it is generally far more likely for methane to be encountered than any (earth-like) life form.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Tony Blair lands job with Khosla Ventures - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/25/blair-lands-silicon-valley-job

<comment><USER2> > "And he earns up to £400,000 an hour for speeches on the international > lecture circuit"

Good grief.</comment>


Ask HN: Was there really a dot com bubble? - <AUTHOR>

Wikipedia points out, that at the peak of the dot com bubble, "America's 371 publicly traded Internet companies have grown to the point that they are collectively valued at $1.3 trillion".
Thats about as much as the combined value of Apple, Google, Amazon and Facebook today. So the internet did hold up to its promise.
Even if we only look at companies that already existed during the "bubble" - there is a lot of value. Amazon is worth 143 billion. Ebay 64 billion. If we add up all the value of the survivors, maybe we come to the conclusion that there was no bubble? <comment><USER2> Your syllogism doesn't work. The dot-com bubble wasn't "the ultimate promise of the Internet". It was the irrational valuations assigned to a specific set of unsustainable business models popularized in the late 90s, and driven by pre-profit and often pre-revenue companies going directly to the public market for liquidity.

</comment><comment><USER3> Didn't you just black-hole the fourteen years in between when comparing valuations? :)

Also, even if we go along with your line of reasoning and the net worth of the survivors pretty much equals the net worth of all the internet companies in 2000, that still means that almost 99% of the internet companies were worthless and all the venture capital poured therein lost. Still sounds very much like a bubble, no?

</comment><comment><USER4> > If we add up all the value of the survivors, maybe we come to the conclusion > that there was no bubble?

Factoring in inflation would that still be true? Do the internet companies make up a significant percentage of the stock market like they did in 2000? Is this comparison even valid since I'd expect the tech/internet sector to have grown significantly as the internet has matured since 2000?

</comment><comment><USER5> I would argue that most of the value of those companies was created post- bubble.

</comment><comment><USER6> Apple is not an internet based company. Facebook's stock is privately held for the most part. Half of Google's publicly held stock is non-voting. The founder's class B shares carry 10 votes apiece.</comment>


Graphene breakthrough heralds 'million-fold improvement' in hard drive storage - <AUTHOR> http://thestack.com/graphene-naval-research-million-times-hard-disk-storage-160315

<comment><USER2> Hopefully it comes with a million-fold increase in data transfer as well.</comment>


Obama, computerize health care records - plate-it

I have heard Obama mention computerizing health care records multiple times.  This seems like a potential gold mine!  Has anyone looked into this or is involved in this in any way?<p>http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/12/technology/stimulus_health_care/ <comment><AUTHOR> It's complicated (I work with Medicare Part D prescription transactions).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_medical_record> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_health_record> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Portability_an...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Insurance_Portability_and_Accountability_Act) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Imp...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Prescription_Drug,_Improvement,_and_Modernization_Act)</comment>


Red Pen v2 with live collaboration - <AUTHOR> https://redpen.io

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN. I'm Matt, the co-founder of Red Pen. I'm a designer who turned developer because I wanted to make Red Pen.

This is our big v2. Cool things you could try: the front page has an onboarding bot that simulates using the product; commenting on designs use Pusher and stream live; and I like to think I made it pretty damn fast.

Appreciate the feedback! (eh eh)

<comment><USER2> Really great design and execution. Are you responsible for the animations (on the marketing site and product itself) and other components? If so, what was your learning process (a book, website, etc.)?

<comment><AUTHOR> My co-founder @8apixel and I co-designed it (we make competing designs then choose/merge the best ideas.) We both shared in coding the front-end.

Coding front-end and animations is just searching google for examples + practice. I didn't find a shortcut, sadly! I fiddle with CSS animations until they match what I imagine them to be. Ceasar ([http://matthewlein.com/ceaser/](http://matthewlein.com/ceaser/)) is really good for getting kinetics right.

It's also a huge help when designers better than you give you feedback and suggestions; because they can picture a different finished product to you. During Red Pen's development I would share Red Pen with other designers who would give me feedback about Red Pen on Red Pen (whoa).

Back-end learning was harder because I came in (a year ago) with little Ruby or Rails knowledge. Why the Lucky Stiff's ebook on Ruby was inspirational (and it had cartoons cats!!). Rails for Zombies was a nice primer to Rails. The rest was Google. Knowing devs was a bonus because I could hire them to cover my arse (security audits and performance optimisation.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> This looks really really good! I don't see a use for it right now so I'm going to wait until I start a new collaborative project so as not to waste the 30 days evaluation.

But one thing is I might forget about it when I'll need it. Just a wish but you should do some sort of 5 free projects for students like github does.

<comment><AUTHOR> Email firstname.lastname@example.com and I will personally remind you in two weeks :D

Education discounts is something we've thought about. You've up-voted that thought for us.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Unrelated to my other positive comments...

I think the "show hidden comments" needs a bit of tweaking. I came across a case where it didn't really need expanding. Bit of a pet peeve of mine.

See screenshots below. Firefox 28.0, OS X 10.9.2

[http://imgur.com/qE8StaH](http://imgur.com/qE8StaH)

[http://imgur.com/ALGsofX](http://imgur.com/ALGsofX)

<comment><AUTHOR> But it saved you 10px of precious reading space!

But, yes, valid feedback. It should be smarter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I started using Red Pen when I was working with Katie (who is a rocking designer) at one of my previous jobs. I've then taken Red Pen and used it at a bunch of other places now.

I've always ended up with bunches of printed mockups with annotations on them which are hard to version and end up piling up on my desk. Red Pen means that I can work with anyone to get a design just right.

</comment><comment><USER4> I really like the improvements. V1 was very useable, and really the only thing lacking was a "professional" introduction page. And you even added versioning, too!

Also, congratulations on finding a business model! I like how you're charging for _active_ projects, and allow past ones to be archived and revived. Strikes me as pretty ethical.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, we designed the pricing model based on what we would actually use as designers. I've always been able to spot arbitrary obstructions products throw up on purpose— and it never felt right.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This tool, quite seriously, has changed our business. V2 is off the hizzle.

</comment><comment><USER7> Any difference between you and Viewflux ([http://www.viewflux.com](http://www.viewflux.com))? - been using it for a while.

</comment><comment><USER8> Woah! This looks really really nice. I'm definitely going to re-visit it when I get back working on my start-up :D</comment>


Improving TrueOS: OpenRC - <AUTHOR> https://www.trueos.org/blog/improving-trueos-openrc/ <comment><USER2> As a long time user of OpenRC, I was pretty sad when Debian jumped into systemd by default instead of sticking to something like OpenRC as the default. It's light weight, easy to use, embraces POSIX, and a good modular building block for both server operating systems and not over reaching on the plumbing desktop users want.

Cheers to TrueOS which is done by an astonishingly small dev team and part time at that as they are FreeNAS devs. If you ignore the hit and miss graphics story shared with FreeBSD for now, TrueOS has some of the best defaults and out of the box experience I've seen.

<comment><USER3> Try Gentoo (again:).

<comment><USER4> Speaking of Gentoo. The current maintainer of OpenRC over there seems hell bent on introducing all manner of systemd-isms to it.

To the point that certain members of the Gentoo community is contemplating a fork of OpenRC.

<comment><USER3> uug. Links? Sounds like something the eudev people would be on the right side of.

<comment><USER4> [https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1035064.html](https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1035064.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "With OpenRC, TrueOS boot times have been reduced from generally over 1 minute to around 10 seconds"

that's… odd. Pretty much all my FreeBSD machines spend more time before init, enumerating devices and stuff. rc doesn't take much time. Unless it's doing DHCP without a network connection :D

<comment><USER2> There are a lot of issues here that should eventually be lower hanging fruit, but required some infrastructure. EARLY_AP_STARTUP which gets SMP in order a lot sooner should allow for drivers to attach earlier. I vaguely recall some idea on deciding what and when to initialize being the next big opportunity.

<comment><USER5> EARLY_AP_STARTUP is enabled by default… Is anyone working on enumerating all buses in parallel?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I run openRC on Arch. If you want to escape from the horrors of systemd, it's a good way to do so.

But I've ranted far too much about systemd here on HN to write another one without explicit prompting.

The point is, I really like OpenRC: generally speaking, it's well-designed, reasonably simple, easy to manage, and _actually does what it 's supposed to_. What systemd-isms that have invaded haven't effected me yet.

<comment><USER7> I'm considering doing the same.

Have you had any issues migrating to OpenRC on Arch? Things to look out for?

<comment><USER6> [http://systemd-free.org](http://systemd-free.org) provides a repo with all the stuff you need, including openrc scripts, eudev, and patched versions of other software that has fallen to the cancer, like the *kits. They provide simple installation instructions, and it should Just Work.

Issues are rare, although the usual Arch caveats apply (anything can go wrong depending on how your system's set up, when in doubt, check the blog/rss associated with your repos, as there might be valuable information, etc). However, I have noticed a few things:

-While the repo does provide pulseaudio, it doesn't provide the 32-bit pulseaudio packages. This means that 32-bit applications that try to use pulse won't play audio properly. However, these are rare. Do be sure to force SDL and openal to use alsa, though.

-Some software (like Samba) expects systemd to be there when you compile it, and wants systemd as a runtime dependancy. However, (again, as with Samba), these pieces of software sometimes provide config options to remove systemd integration. Consult the project documentation, or just run `./configure --help`.

-I have experienced some audio issues in 64-bit applications (namely, firefox). Although I suspect this is unrelated, it's worth mentioning.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I run TrueOS for my desktop, and the transition to OpenRC was fairly rocky. Eg, on the "stable" branch, the switch was made without openrc startup scripts for many services (mostly 3rd party), so after the update, stuff just didn't start.

The claim about startup time is a little disingenuous. The only time I ever reboot my system is for upgrades, and that process now takes a LOT longer, due to them doing the upgrade from a single-user sort of environment. For those unfamiliar, TrueOS uses OpenSolaris Boot Environments + ZFS, and an upgrade involves taking a zfs snapshot of the system, making a new fs based off the snap, and then doing the upgrade in the new filesystem. That all used to be done on-line. However, they ran into complaints from users that had, for example, deleted accounts between the upgrade happening & rebooting into the new bootenv. So they started doing the actual snapshot & upgrade in a single- user environment as part of the reboot. This makes the reboot downtime for an update take 10-15 minutes rather than 2, and greatly outweighs the small savings in startup time.

<comment><USER9> I don't use TrueOS, I think I played with it once or twice over the years, but what you're describing sounds... I can't find a polite word. Catering to the lowest common denominator? This sounds windows like. Users deleting accounts between upgrading and rebooting? Who does that? Why? It's not Unix job to stop you shooting yourself in the foot.

<comment><USER8> Well, if you have auto-updates configured, it would be an easy mistake to make. I have, for example, installed packages and had them go missing due to this. But I'd like an "i'm aware of the risks, let me update quickly" option.

The main reason I run TrueOS rather than just FreeBSD is for the boot environments. I've been screwed too much by dependency issues on port/pkg upgrades and left without something critical too many times, and the bootadm thing is the perfect solution, as you always have a working fallback.

<comment><USER10> Doesn't FreeBSD also have beadm? Is there something wrong with FreeBSD's beadm? Not trying to be accusatory, its an honest question because I haven't looked much into beadm but I was planning on setting it up on my FreeBSD boxes this year and knowledge of any shortcomings you've already hit would save me the trouble.

<comment><USER11> FreeBSD's beadm implementation is really nice now too, especially with its recent integration into the bootloader.

<comment><USER8> Wow, cool! I missed this.. One of the things I dislike about TrueOS is how it uses grub for beadm management.

I think I may just switch back to vanilla FreeBSD.

<comment><USER12> The last that I read, TrueOS was back to defaulting to the FreeBSD boot loader.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Welcome openrc . The good question is what happened to launchd , runit and , and Nosh . All were in the running to replace rc'ng .

<comment><USER6> What about s6?

<comment><USER14> Still in active development too. :) And no, Jonathan, I haven't heard anything from TrueOS people.

Which is a shame, because if a distribution is being built today, with no existing legacy service script base to cater to (or if it has to be converted anyway), going for anything else than s6 or nosh is staying in the past.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> If someone from TrueOS reads this, you have some weird characters on your front page: [http://i.imgur.com/GuOXYPJ.png](http://i.imgur.com/GuOXYPJ.png)

<comment><USER16> It's - '' \- 'U+0003 : <control-0003> (END OF TEXT [ETX])', which is (apparently) invisible on some browser setups.</comment></comment>


Zuckerberg wanted meet at Clinton campaign to understand "political operations" - <AUTHOR> https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/15092#efmARfAUUAZoAd9AeeAf6 <comment><USER2> I always said that politics should be left to politicians. Nobody is fooled that by thinly-veiled "philantropic efforts" what is really meant is "using Facebook's huge platform to further some political agenda"

If we are happy having engineers deal in politics, we should never be surprised when politicians deal in engineering.

<comment><USER3> Politics should be left to politicians is what has us in the boat we are in. Engineers, teachers, poets, plumbers, horse trainers, Walmart greeters, and everyone else should be involved in politics.

<comment><USER4> Provided always that they remember that politics is not engineering, classroom teaching, etc.

<comment><USER3> To quote Thomas Mann, "everything is politics".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nobody wants to touch a political issue with a stick. The US election is a nightmare now, you get no good choices. Well, i think it was similar this couple of years across many places. Democracy is just not compatible with huge masses of not-so-well-educated people millions of who are dependent on the social security programs.

I don't have a better solution. I just see that all this corruption, this waste and idiocy is almost scary. I cant wait for AI or something similar to help sort this out. People fundamentally cannot make good decisions about so many complex issues all at once.

But if you don't talk about politics here, that's ok too. I enjoy the high quality of conversations and don't want to lower it.

<comment><USER6> I'm not so sure we live in a Democracy anymore. Peggy Noonan wrote an article suggesting we live in a 2 tiered society - we have people who make the Policies and the people who have to live with the Policies (the Policed). The Policy Makers set policies to protect their own interests, which don't necessarily align with the general population. We're at a point now where the population is taken out of the decision making process. IMO I don't think we can call the US a democracy anymore.

<comment><USER7> US was never a democracy hence the electoral college. Founders didn't trust the public to elected the highest position in government or US senators. Only the house was directly elected.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Headline is incorrect. Zuckerberg wanted to meet with John Podesta while he was on a trip to the area. No mention of meeting at any Clinton campaign office. In fact the last message in the thread was an attempt to arrange a meeting time at Facebook campus.

Even if the title was suppose to be "wanted to meet with Clinton campaign". This is not necessarily accurate either. Zuckerberg did want to meet with John Podesta, but nothing indicates it was in reference directly to his role in the Clinton campaign. Zuckerberg has been more than willing to cross party lines to push his agenda, one I don't necessarily wholly agree with, and I imagine invitations of this sort went out to those experienced in creating political organizations across both parties.

The headline is phrased to attempt to imply a connection between Facebook and the Clinton campaign which the linked to email does not support.

<comment><AUTHOR> Couldnt fit in complete title!! I just tried to trim "Facebook CEO Zuckerberg wanted to meet with Clinton campaign to "help his understanding" of "political operations" " off twitter linck

<comment><USER3> Zuckerberg requested meeting with Podesta to help understanding of "political operations"

Reflects the purpose of the meeting and who it was with. The twitter title is misleading since Zuckerberg didn't want to meet with him in his role as Clinton campaign manager. He was even willing to wait until after the election.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The thing that horrifies me the most is that the COO of Facebook would write an email subject line as vague and inappropriately capitalized as, "in case you have time."</comment>


China tried to get World Bank to fund surveillance in Xinjiang - <AUTHOR> https://www.axios.com/china-world-bank-xinjiang-ai-huawei-surveillance-263c5753-1cb8-4366-aad3-c9be9b285fa5.html <comment><USER2> journalist's thread: [https://twitter.com/BethanyAllenEbr/status/12047223688847400...](https://twitter.com/BethanyAllenEbr/status/1204722368884740097)

>Among the items requested: video management and facial recognition software system that can create a "blacklist face database" so that "blacklist alarms can be performed when blacklisted individuals pass through" and the resulting images sent directly to Chinese police.</comment>


Amazon Echo update adds "Computer" wake word to complete the Star Trek fantasy - <AUTHOR> http://www.aftvnews.com/amazon-echo-and-echo-dot-update-adds-computer-wake-word-to-help-complete-the-star-trek-fantasy/ <comment><USER2> How soon until I can ask the Replicator for "tea, Earl Grey, hot"?

<comment><USER3> Try it. Alexa responds with one of a few utterances like "The replicators on this vessel are not yet operational."

<comment><USER4> Is there a red alert klaxon? That would rock.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Noooo, I wanted Jarvis so badly :( I need to push more on my feature request.

</comment><comment><USER6> We need just need the 60s futurist flashing coloured lights and we can all pretend to be Spock on the bridge of the Enterprise. (Could probably be done with a pi)

</comment><comment><USER7> Just don't watch ST with Echo on

</comment><comment><USER8> Any way to do this on Android that doesn't involve sketchy root hacks or 3rd party apps?

</comment><comment><USER9> This seems like a good way to make it even easier to accidentally trigger Alexa.

<comment><USER10> The choice of wakeword is a setting. You don't have to let it respond to "Computer". (Likewise, if your daughter is named Alexa...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> eventually they'll let you specify your own trigger word. a lot f funny stories coming up when alexa gets triggered during random conversations.

</comment><comment><USER12> I was hoping for Dolores or Maeve.</comment>


Opensource Bug Tracking System - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
I am developing an open source bug tracking system. I have recently started working on it.
I am using PHP on server side (no framework). jQuery on client side (If you are joining and prefer naked javascript or any other framework, I am fine with that). I am planning to use MongoDB.
Anybody willing to be a part of open source project?
GitHub URL: http://github.com/ashitvora/BugTrackr
This is more of a learning project. I don't expect you to be an expert but dedicated and enthusiastic.
If interested, get in touch with me on Twitter @ashitvora <comment><USER2> What bug tracking systems are you basing your concept on? I'd love to know what you've not found in other systems that you are wanting in yours. Knowing, explaining and the demonstrating the differentiators is often the foundation for getting a new project off the ground in a niche where there's plenty of competition (e.g. Chrome).

<comment><AUTHOR> I have so far used JIRA and Trac. I don't like the UI and User Experience. JIRA seems very cluttered. Plus the provide integration of Subversion and other version control systems in it which I myself have never really used.

I wanna make something simple and easy to use. Plus, this is a sort of learning project and I would like to experiment newer technologies like HTML5, MongoDB, etc.. in it.</comment></comment>


Wikipedia donating its old servers - <AUTHOR> http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/06/13/server-decommission-donations/

<comment><USER2> The US branch of OpenStreetMap took donation of several of these machines last year. They're still serving us well! Thanks Rob and Wikimedia!

<comment><USER3> As well as me and many other people who love and use the OSM project!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Update just posted:

At 36 requests and counting, I imagine we may now be nearly out of servers. Until each request is reviewed, I am not sure. Consider the entry period 'soft closed'. The email address still works for now, so feel free to send in requests. It cannot hurt. ~ RobH on 2011-06-17 @ 12:35 EST

</comment><comment><USER5> Well that's pretty neat!</comment>


Show HN: Hackers New - show stories from /newest on your HN front page. - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/folz/hackers-new <comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN, my weekend project was a browser extension for Firefox and Chrome that displays items from /newest on the front page.

The idea came from some comments I saw a couple days ago. The gist was that because very few people actually check /newest, getting a story out of /newest usually requires an upvote ring, existing fame, or luck. I'm hoping that by including new stories on the front page, I'll get myself to check them out and upvote them more often than I currently do.

The extension chooses stories at random from /newest and includes them on your front page. The stories get re-chosen every fifteen minutes. You can upvote them from the front page just like you would from /newest.

Links to the extension are in the repo!</comment>


Tell HN: As of today I'm swearing off Reddit - <AUTHOR> Today I was told by reddit that if I wanted to view a subreddit, I would have to download the app. Instead I'm blocking the site and swearing off of it. I want to invite people to join me.
I've slowly come to realize that of all the social media time wasters I use, reddit is by far the most insidious and damaging to the normal functioning of my thinking. I've had several times in normal conversation where I'd mention that some trend or fad was annoying me only to have everyone else I was with agree that they didn't find the thing to be that widespread. Every time i would think back as to why I was so hyperaware of that specific thing, it would come back to the fact that it was a mode of thinking that was super concentrated in the reddit echo chamber but probably not that prevelent outside of it.
It is such an intense echo chamber, and it starts to feel normalized because I relied on it heavily as a crutch when I was bored and I was consuming the same content over and over again.
I'm not going to say I never got any positive interactions out of reddit, but when I think back, those positive interactions are extremely few and far between and are drastically overwhelmed by repeatedly reading low quality content that made me question my sanity and the sanity of the society around me.
I don't use Twitter but I have a feeling everything I'm saying applies there as well.
It's not a healthy place and today I'm swearing off it. If If I could inspire anyone who feels similarly to make the shift with me, I would be happy to hear it. <comment><USER2> I agree. It's an odd site. Initially I though I liked it and had an idealistic view of it as a perfect democracy.

You quickly realize that no such forum exists, especially as it gains popularity... which you would think would make it more democratic. It kind of leaves me with a sense of disappointment. Humans, by nature, won't ever realize a perfect democracy. We are too much of sheep, and care too much about feeling validated and included. Stupid evolutionary heard behavior gets in the way.

<comment><USER3> >Humans, by nature, won't ever realize a perfect democracy. We are too much of sheep, and care too much about feeling validated and included.

I think you are placing too much blame on lurkers and every day commenters.

The biggest issue is moderation. Moderators almost always have the power go to their head, they begin abusing mod tools and creating a repressed community rather than creating a community that fosters open and honest communication.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Reddit has been a cesspool for a long time. When their CEO started editing posts, I left and stopped posting. I only read very specific subs, and anything out of those I dont take for a grain of salt. Def an echo chamber where anyone else's opinion gets down voted into oblivion. You're right, its not a healthy place.

</comment><comment><USER5> I opened an account on Reddit the first day they came online. I watched as the quality of posts degraded into nothing but senseless rabble driven by the desire of people clamoring for karma. I left about 4.5 years ago, which was about the time the censoring was beginning to become a problem. I look at it now and and it is virtually unrecognizable... I don't miss it.

</comment><comment><USER6> I'm still enjoying Reddit. I can consume whichever content I like, and filter out whatever I don't like. It really sounds like you were just engaging too much with the things that annoyed you. That said, time off from it will give you some perspective, and you may never go back. In which case, good for you.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's specifically the fact that I can no longer consume whatever content I want.

By restricting subreddits to the app, I'm left to only engage with the front page which is a dumpster fire of political trolling and click bait. There are a few subreddits I'd still engage with but now that that is restricted I'm walking away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why does every disgruntled user/client/restaurant-goer feel the need to start a movement?

Is it something about this generation, that must constantly have its feelings validated by others?

If you already failed to heed others who never used the site, or quit it long ago, does that say something about your character, that you would want others to do now, what you hadn't done before?

<comment><USER8> to be fair, the selling point of social media is to "start movements". And romantic ideas have large appeal, especially to younger audiences.

<comment><USER9> >to be fair, the selling point of social media is to "start movements".

No it isn't, the selling point of social media is socializing and networking with real people. That's literally why it's called _social_ media.

<comment><USER8> Cant forget the arab springs , twitter activism etc. I believe they capitalised on it

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> you can change your settings to old reddit. i never use new reddit or any mobile app. I also think of HN as a better moderated subreddit. Popular subreddits are of course horrible - there is non point going there. But there are well-moderated smaller communities depending on your interests.

Twitter is a different kind of bubble, it has much more varied opinions and you can find likeminded people no matter how particular.

Instead of echo chambers, you can think of them as incubators. Ideas need a supportive, nurturing environment to grow, they die in the wild. So small echo chambers are actually beneficial to the growth of new trends.

I don't know, i m learning things through twitter / reddit / hn so i dont think they 're just huge time wasters, i can think of a lot worse things to do like TV or facebook/instagram.

</comment><comment><USER10> Good for you. Did it years ago when it sold to Conde Nast and the shadyness started fast.

</comment><comment><USER11> What's an alternative?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think here is the best alternative.

Something that mixed topic specific subs with the moderation and user base of HN would be ideal.

For now I'm redirecting to [https://slatestarcodex.com/](https://slatestarcodex.com/) which has a lot of content I want to get through and I always get something out of lurking around there.</comment></comment>


Spoof of classic O'Reilly geek book cover - <AUTHOR> http://www.boingboing.net/2011/02/04/spoof-of-classic-ore.html

<comment><USER2> The actual generator of the spoof covers: <http://www.oreillymaker.com/>

And some hand-picked ones: <http://oreillymaker.blogspot.com/>

<comment><USER3> I recall this from some years ago. I don't know whether it's original, piggy- backs someone else, or is a rip off -- or whether it's the site where I first saw this.

Anyway, the domain name sounds familiar, and these are some of the first O'Reilly parodies I saw.

<http://www.bofhcam.org/co-larters/> [aka "oreally.com"]

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> To be funny, O'Reilly parodies need to get the design right. That one is too far off in the design, making it just embarrassing. In particular, the title font is too small, leaving it lost in a sea of white.</comment>


Github is exposing public SSH keys - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/appplemac.keys <comment><USER2> Duplicate. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5023665>

Also, it doesn't make a difference, since they are _public_ keys, like public GPG keys. They also aren't the only ones that do this - LaunchPad.net (where Ubuntu development takes place) also does it.

<https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesgifford/+sshkeys>

</comment><comment><USER3> So what? Is somebody going to factorize my public key?

This is only an issue if 1) Users are relying on github as a trusted source of public keys, and 2) malicious users can modify the public keys.

</comment><comment><USER4> It doesn't even have key names. Boring. (But useful -- I can provision accounts on servers I run with "oh I set up .ssh/authorized_keys with your Github keys"; thanks!)

</comment><comment><USER5> Isn't being public the point of _public_ keys?

<comment><USER3> A problem arises if users start to use github as a defacto trusted source for public keys. Githubs security standards are very high, but they have a large potential attack surface due to all of the functionality they support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Launchpad accounts have ssh keys as part of public user profiles. Should be ok :)

Ex: <https://launchpad.net/~brad-figg>

</comment><comment><USER7> Can someone help me understand why it is a problem if my public key is, uh, public?

</comment><comment><USER8> Worst case scenario is that someone lets me access their server. Unless RSA is busted, right?

</comment><comment><USER9> In other news: HN is revealing the user names of its users! Film at 11!</comment>


Ask HN: What do you do to follow open-source projects? - <AUTHOR>

Every OSS project is different in terms of how they manage their information, whether it comes from a blog, a forge, twitter, a mailing list. What do you all do when you are using or interested in an open-source project and want to keep track of development, updates, news, articles etc? <comment><USER2> I'd say there are four major things I do:

1\. if there's a project mailing list (or mailing lists) I subscribe to the list(s) as appropriate. Most of the projects I'm interested in do have a mailing list of some sort.

2\. If the project has an IRC channel on Freenode, I will often lurk in the IRC channel. I have my client set to auto-join all the channels I'm interested in.

3\. If there's a blog aggregator ("Planet") for the project, I follow it's feed, and/or visit the webpage periodically. ex: <http://www.planetscala.com/>

4\. If the project is on GitHub, I just "watch" it on github.</comment>


Harvard student submits rap album as final year thesis - graduates with honours - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/20/harvard-student-submits-rap-album-final-year-thesis/ <comment><AUTHOR> This other article [0] from The Independent interestingly goes further to say he'll be working as a software engineer at Google.

      [0]http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/harvard-student-rap-album-final-year-thesis-passes-second-highest-grade-ivy-league-obasi-shaw-a7747371.html</comment>


PSA: Please Report iOS and Siri Bugs to Apple - <AUTHOR> Benefits
You'll help make iOS better for yourself and everyone else!
Apple prioritizes bugs based on the number of times they're reported by different people. So every single report matters. Each bug you report is directly more likely to get fixed promptly.
If you're like me and get frustrated by the occasional iOS bug, you'll definitely want to do this!
One-time setup so that you can easily report bugs:
I believe you might need to enroll in the developer program, but that's easy and free for these purposes (though you can't publish your own apps without paying, but you don't need that for this!).
Firstly set up assistive touch to trigger a sysdiagnose (trust me, do this) – the instructions are here https://developer.apple.com/services-account/download?path=/iOS/iOS_Logs/AssistiveTouch_Sysdiagnose_Logging_Instructions.pdf
Then read the instructions here so you know how to upload it https://download.developer.apple.com/iOS/iOS_Logs/sysdiagnose_Logging_Instructions.pdf
Note that sysdiagnosis files only seem to last before 48 hours before being automatically deleted, so be sure to airdrop them to your computer before then so you don't lose them.
If you ever experience Siri bugs e.g. unexpected responses to queries, install the Siri logging profile according to Apple's instructions here: https://developer.apple.com/services-account/download?path=/iOS/iOS_Logs/Siri_Logging_Instructions.pdf
How to report an iOS bug once it happens:
Create a sysdiagnosis by triggering your assistive touch shortcut, and take a screenshot or screen recording of the bug
Go to https://bugreport.apple.com/, sign in with your Apple ID
Create a bug report following their instructions
Upload your screenshot and/or screen recording and your sysdiagnose file and note in the report the time/date that it occurred. <comment><USER2> My main complaint with iOS(12) is that there is no quick way to disable WiFi. It's frustrating having to go to Settings -> WiFi multiple times a day for such a simple task.

Some times the networks the phone picks up don't even allow internet access right away, and any apps which requires an internet connection simply stops working.

I get the reasoning for making it easier for people to not waste their data. But I don't see why that requires adding so much friction to the rest of us.

<comment><USER3> You can disable WiFi quickly by swiping down (from the top right) to bring up control center and then tapping the WiFi button.

<comment><USER4> While Wi-Fi is disabled, auto-join for any nearby Wi-Fi networks is also disabled until:

\- You turn on Wi-Fi in Control Center.

\- You connect to a Wi-Fi network in Settings > Wi-Fi.

\- You walk or drive to a new location.

\- It's 5 AM local time.

\- You restart your device.

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT208086)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Very little reason to believe Apple reads any of these, why waste the time?

<comment><AUTHOR> The responses I've gotten on my reports show me that Apple certainly reads them. And when the bugs are annoying, if I can spend 5 minutes sending a report that'll help them be aware of and then fix the bug, it's so worth it to me.</comment></comment>


Taliban Accidentally Reveal Identities of Their Mailing List Members - <AUTHOR> http://abcnews.go.com/International/taliban-accidentally-reveal-identities-mailing-list-members/story?id=17737950#.UKadNuOe-Xj <comment><AUTHOR> This reads like an Onion article.</comment>


Steve Blank's New Book - The Startup Owner's Manual - <AUTHOR> http://www.stevenblank.com/startup_index_qty.html

<comment><USER2> First question: Who is Bob Dorf...</comment>


A Crypto Challenge For The Telegram Developers - <AUTHOR> http://thoughtcrime.org/blog/telegram-crypto-challenge/ <comment><USER3> For reference, here's a list (probably incomplete? (EDIT: and feel free to add!)) of ways this protocol is broken:

      1. There's no authentication at any point. The whole thing is trivially MITM-able.
      2. The RNG is Dual_EC_DRBG, which is backdoored.
      3. The RSA public key is small enough that an attacker of sufficient means could break it.
      4. The RSA plaintext is unpadded. Proper padding is critical for safe RSA encryption. See e.g. Bleichenbacher '98.
      5. RSA is used to encrypt semantic data. Dangerous for the same reasons as above.
      6. The hash function is broken. I'm not sure if this matters too much here, but I'm also not sure that it doesn't matter.
      7. The ciphertext seems to be restricted to messages of exactly 128 bits. It's not clear how or if the plaintext is padded if it's too short, and it's not clear how the protocol handles a longer message. These are noteworthy considerations.

And yet it's still (basically) safe against the kind of contest Telegram has outlined. Someone could win by factoring the RSA public key, but I'm not sure if that would be cheaper than the $200k prize. This vulnerability can also be mitigated trivially by using bigger RSA keys, making the protocol Telegram- secure.

<comment><USER4> I don't keep up on everything, but I thought Dual_EC_DRBG was used by nobody else for any real world crypto. Did these guys look over the Wiki page and decide it would be fun to be the first?

<comment><USER5> They aren't using it, but Dual_EC_DRBG is fairly widely used actually. There was a false meme denying that this was the case, but RSA and others proved that wrong.

<comment><USER6> Dual EC was not particularly common. Here's a metric: name a couple of products that you or I use regularly that ever used it.

It's not as if you could design a system with Dual EC instead of HMAC DRBG and not know it; Dual EC requires bignum math. It is incredibly slow for a CSPRNG.

<comment><USER7> This is disingenuous. RSA used it as a default in a commercial crypto library, as you must know. End users won't generally be aware that it's being used in a product, but that doesn't mean it isn't out there.

It is unlikely that most developers changed the default unless it was having a noticeable impact on performance, which wouldn't be the case if it was just used for key generation.

[http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/rsa-advisory-nsa- al...](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/rsa-advisory-nsa-algorithm/)

> In its advisory, RSA said that all versions of RSA BSAFE Toolkits, including > all versions of Crypto-C ME, Micro Edition Suite, Crypto-J, Cert-J, SSL-J, > Crypto-C, Cert-C, SSL-C were affected.

> In addition, all versions of RSA Data Protection Manager (DPM) server and > clients were affected as well.

> "Every product that we as RSA make, if it has a crypto function, we may or > may not ourselves have decided to use this algorithm," said Sam Curry, chief > technical officer for RSA Security. "So we're also going to go through and > make sure that we ourselves follow our own advice and aren't using this > algorithm."

Here's someone who has dug up a decent amount of real-world products:

[http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/43164/which- prod...](http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/43164/which-products-are- affected-by-nsas-ability-to-crack-pseudo-random-number-gener)

<comment><USER6> You probably don't use any product that uses BSAFE.

For whatever it's worth, for people who think this point is all part of some elaborate edifice of sticking up for NSA: I am now 99.9% convinced that Dual EC is in fact a backdoor, and while it's clumsy in a tradecraft sense (you can just look at it and see the problem), I've heard compelling scenarios in which it would have been effective.

I just don't think it's a backdoor that's relevant to modern software, or, even for its time (the early 00's), software that was in popular use.

<comment><USER8> What do you make of the list given in this other comment that includes copy machines and game consoles?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940993](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6940993)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> tl;dr: moxie uses ancient, known broken crypto primitives (Dual_EC_DRBG, RSA with 896 bits, MD2 and XOR) to construct a chat protocol which is unbreakable if framed in the same way the Telegram developers did with their challenge. _" If they can't demonstrate a break in this obviously broken protocol using the same contest framework they've setup, then we'll know that their contest is bullshit."_

Also, a call to arms to improve the OSS TextSecure implementation.

<comment><USER10> I still don't get it.

If an insecure protocol with an insecure implementation can send messages that others can't read, how is it insecure?

<comment><USER11> The contest limitations rule out most of the likely attack vectors for breaking the protocol in the real world. It's like saying "Our bank vans are 100% secure. Just try stealing money from them without puncturing our tires or bribing one of our employees."

<comment><USER12> Thanks - this is the best analogy I've heard so far.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Even if Telegram's explanation _did_ stand up to scrutiny and was ran by experienced cryptographers, the fact that its core code is closed source makes it utterly worthless from a security perspective. They can tout their own security all they like, but if no one else can independently verify it then it means nothing.

So far they've only published the source to their client, but their servers do all of the actual processing and cryptography.

All of Moxie's projects, on the other hand, have always been completely open source.

<comment><USER14> Wait the crypto is done server side? I haven't really looked into Telegram much, but that's fucking silly. Lavabit all over again.

<comment><USER15> its not done server side

<comment><USER16> Eh, yes and no. It's not sent in plain text to the server. However, in the sense that it's 'Lavabit all over again', or at least a procedure that produces isomorphic problems, the encryption seems to be being done server- side:

\</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--

 _' The difference between messages in Secret Chats and ordinary Telegram messages is in the encryption type: client-client in case of Secret Chats, client-server/server-client for ordinary chats. This enables your ordinary Telegram messages to be both secure and available in the cloud so that you can access them from any of your devices — which is very useful at times.'_

[https://telegram.org/faq#q-why-not-just-make-all-chats- secre...](https://telegram.org/faq#q-why-not-just-make-all-chats-secret)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--

I have trouble construing that other than in you use the server's key to encrypt the message you send and then server encrypts it with the public key associated with the addressees' device at the time.

...

This seems to produce the same problem LB had in that you can be asked to turn over the keys to the messages on your server. And for similar reasons, you're doing encryption on your server.

#

Given that LB had that trouble, I also have difficulty seeing any non- malicious reason for solving the key distribution problem this way. Since you can set up secret chats that are end to end encrypted you could equally have asked the client's devices to exchange a private key using each others' public keys.

I'm tempted to explain it away in terms of the user being expected not to be technically savy enough to press the buttons on both devices when asked to do so. - But the client knowing about and using encryption in the first place implies at least some sort of technical competence which I would imagine is great enough to press two buttons when a prompt comes up saying something like:

'The device DEVICE NAME is asking for the key to read your messages.

If you did not try to set up your mail on another device within the last minute, press the REPORT ATTACK button.

Else press the ALLOW button.'

Still, I've overestimated the average intelligence of people before.

</comment><comment><USER17> As mentioned at [http://core.telegram.org/contestfaq](http://core.telegram.org/contestfaq) if more tools to interact with the traffic are needed for the contestants to crack Telegram, they will be provided in the next contest right after 1 March, 2014. The current contest has an important practical task of deciphering traffic that is being intercepted in real time. This is the basic concern of regular users like myself (me and lots of other people in Russia had to stop using WhatsApp because of easily decipherable intercepted traffic). If Telegram proves to be robust in this respect, more tools to manipulate traffic and wider contests with similar prizes are to follow. Like all startups, this contest by Telegram starts from solving a basic but most important problem, then gradually gets more complicated in functionality and scope.

Telegram will always be interested in creating incentives for the crypto- community to check its security and provide feedback. So if you are waiting for tools to try, e.g., a MITM on Telegram and get your $200К, please stay tuned. It's @telegram on Twitter.

<comment><USER18> Does this mean that you were unable to recover Alice's message?

<comment><USER17> Alas, I am not a cryptographer and not even a member of the Telegram team. I'm just a guy who backs Telegram financially and proposed to start their contest. I described my motives behind it here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6938622](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6938622)

As for your contest, I will make sure the Telegram team will have a look at it once they are awake. As far as I understand, you designed it to be similar to Telegram's contest. How do you send messages that affect traffic in real-time? How large is the prize? Is there a deadline?

<comment><USER19> Have you taken part in Telegram contest design?

> How large is the prize?

I think the "prize" is obvious. Breaking this "unbreakable" 896bit-RSA + no auth + no signature + MD2 + XOR is a necessary condition for the Telegram contest to be taken seriously.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is counter-productive.

Whichever way you view Telegram, they haven't developed it to make a quick buck on the ignorance of the masses, nor are they in it to deceive people and entice them to use a knowingly broken crypto.

Granted, they have an attitude problem, they clearly have _no_ experience talking to the crypto community and they made dumb move with this contest thing, but in the end of the day they and Moxie(s) are on the same damn side.

Antagonizing things further is just plain stupid.

<comment><USER21> They have a blindness and an arrogance that could prove fatal to anyone trusting them. Until they lose the arrogance and catch up with the published state of the art crypto they are dangerous and are likely to do more harm than good.

This is a very clear explanation of the limitations of their challenge and hopefully will open their eyes and help them on the road to getting a better understanding. If not it will help to limit the damage they can do by publicly clarifying the limitations and the lack of understanding that they currently have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Is there a decent "Crypto Not For Dummies But For Reasonably Competent Programmers Who Have Thus Far Taken It For Granted But Want To Get Up To Speed Fairly Quickly On Concepts And Implementation" text?

<comment><USER23> I've heard this one's OK. [https://www.schneier.com/book- applied.html](https://www.schneier.com/book-applied.html)

<comment><USER24> NO! Applied Crypto is at times a fascinating book, but it is terrible for a developer that wants to learn the fundamentals of crypto and how to avoid the most common mistakes people make. Its also really old at this point.

A much better book is Schneier, Ferguson and Kohno's "Cryptography Engineering"[1]. It covers what makes for strong crypto primitives and why weaker ones are considered broken. Note that is book is starting to get a bit out dated (I don't remember it covering ECC at all, for example), but I don't know of any better book.

I also endorse the Matasano Crypto challenges and the Coursera Crypto class taught by Dan Boneh as excellent learning resources.

[1] : [https://www.schneier.com/book-ce.html](https://www.schneier.com/book- ce.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Dear makers and backers of Telegram:

Perhaps in response to my requests ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6933179](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6933179) , [https://twitter.com/zooko/status/413552420522708993](https://twitter.com/zooko/status/413552420522708993) , [https://twitter.com/zooko/status/413552466748133376](https://twitter.com/zooko/status/413552466748133376) ), your FAQ ([http://core.telegram.org/contestfaq](http://core.telegram.org/contestfaq)) now says:

\</comment><comment>- Q: Does Paul send the same message to Nick every day?

No, just as in real life, Paul's messages to Nick can be different each time. The only thing that doesn't change is the secret email address in his daily messages.

Q: Could you provide an example of a Paul's message to Nick?

Sure. The message may look like "Hey Nick, so here is the secret email address for the bounty hunters – {here goes the email}". \</comment><comment>-

There are some things that I don't understand about the structure of this contest. Why is the target secret an email address rather than a magic word like "squeamish ossifrage"?

I asked for an "examples of the actual message", and you posted an possible example, but what I meant to ask for was _actually the exact text_ of one of the messages. Except, of course with the target string (the email address) replaced by X's.

For redditors following along, getting a (partial) copy of the exact message that was sent would be an example of what cryptographers call (partial) "known plaintext". If your cryptosystem is secure against Known Plaintext Attack, then it doesn't matter if an attacker (me) gets copies of some of the messages. If your cryptosystem is insecure in this model, then your users have to be careful with what they type into their messages. For example, they might need to be careful not to cut and paste long strings from other sources, or to otherwise insert strings into their messages that their attacker might guess.

All good, modern cryptosystems are secure in the Known Plaintext Attack model! (And, in fact, all good, modern cryptosystems are secure in much more rigorous models in which attackers get more powers beyond peeking at plaintext.)

So if the makers of Telegram are confident in the security of their protocol, they should have no problem posting the complete, verbatim text of the first message that Paul sent to Nick, with the target email address replaced by "XXX"'s.

<comment><USER25> Taylor Hornby has written a good introductory explanation of the Known Plaintext Attack model and the more powerful attack models, in the context of the Telegram cracking contest:

[http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams- crypta...](http://www.cryptofails.com/post/70546720222/telegrams- cryptanalysis-contest)

</comment></comment><comment> m-app I have been saying this a couple of times in similar threads, but I think Threema [1] deserves a little more attention. Complete end-to-end encryption using NaCl. The interface they created is simple and gets the point across. Also, they're actually saying "don't trust us!", which ironically makes me trust them.

[1]: [https://threema.ch/en/](https://threema.ch/en/)

<comment><USER18> Their protocol doesn't provide any forward secrecy. It uses the PGP protocol model, which is increasingly being seen as an architectural dead end (particularly given the recently revealed ciphertext recording capabilities of NSA):

[https://whispersystems.org/blog/asynchronous- security/](https://whispersystems.org/blog/asynchronous-security/)

<comment><USER26> That's not what their FAQ says: [https://threema.ch/en/faq.html](https://threema.ch/en/faq.html) (scroll down, they specifically claim to provide forward secrecy)

Do you have additional information?

<comment><USER18> Yikes, that actually looks like potentially deceptive marketing to me.

 _> "Yes, Threema provides forward secrecy on the network connection. Client and server negotiate temporary random keys, which are only stored in RAM and replaced every time the app restarts (and at least once every 7 days). An attacker who has captured the network traffic will not be able to decrypt it even if he finds out the long-term secret key of the client or the server after the fact."_

My reading is that they have an end-to-end secure protocol that _does not_ provide forward secrecy, which happens to be routed through a server which uses HTTPS w/ an ephemeral cipher suite for the _network transport_ , with a TLS session ticket that they rotate the key on every 7 days.

We should ask them for more details, but if true, that would be pretty deceptive of them.

<comment><USER26> Wow, ok. So, just to be clear, what you're saying is that you're interpreting their claims here as being exclusively related to the network transport; the underlying end-to-end protocol does _not_ use ephemeral keys as far as you know.

If I'm understanding you correctly, and you're understanding them correctly, that is quite deceptive indeed.

<comment><USER27> Yes, that's what they're doing. I checked them out earlier this year and I remember being disappointed they didn't offer forward secrecy like OTR.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Funny. But actually, the simplest contest that accurately describes Telegram's insanity is simply this:

::Given an unknown function _f_ and a single output _y_ , compute the input _x_ that maps to _y_.::

Ready? Here's the output: ROSEBUD. Now I'll give $100k to anyone who can tell me x. Good luck!

<comment><USER29> The function is known--they publish how their algorithm works. The problem is that their contest doesn't account for the main problem with their system: its vulnerability to MITM attacks.

<comment><USER28> Okay, then let f XOR the input with a randomly generated integer. There is no loss of generality here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Whats to stop Telegram tampering with the messages and just displaying random bytes in the 'output'? This would make it impossible to crack. You cant test the security of a system without 1 - full access to the system or 2 - <USER2> trust in the people controlling the system (which we dont have)

<comment><USER31> They said if no one wins the contest they would publish the keys allowing anyone to decrypt the data, proving it was not garbage.

<comment><USER30> Ah, I missed this part. Thanks

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Using an NSA backdoored RNG is pretty redundant. A cell phone cannot be secured against NSA. They'll just activate their keylogger and grab the plaintext before it has even been encrypted.

<comment><USER13> That's making the assumption that all phones in the US have NSA keyloggers on them, which is pretty unlikely.

<comment><USER32> While they probably don't have keyloggers on them from the start, it is with high probability child's play for them to push it to your phone over the air, and make your phone run it

[http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_syste...](http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone)

"What makes it even worse, is that every baseband processor inherently trusts whatever data it receives from a base station (e.g. in a cell tower). Nothing is checked, everything is automatically trusted. Lastly, the baseband processor is usually the master processor, whereas the application processor (which runs the mobile operating system) is the slave. So, we have a complete operating system, running on an ARM processor, without any exploit mitigation (or only very little of it), which automatically trusts every instruction, piece of code, or data it receives from the base station you're connected to. What could possibly go wrong? "

<comment><USER33> Yep. And you can build your own (low-power) GSM base-station:

[http://www.thinksmallcell.com/Technology/build-your-own- open...](http://www.thinksmallcell.com/Technology/build-your-own-opensource- femtocell.html)

So anyone with a little time on their hands can be that "trusted party" for everyone in radio vicinity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> <Rant> After reading all the blogs and replies that are abuzz talking about Telegram, I realized they are the best guerrilla marketers I have seen in a while! They might as well throw away their PhD. papers and stop calling themselves as Engineers/Cryptographers/whatever... marketing monkeys...

</Rant>

</comment><comment><USER35> I must be missing something, but isn't this easy to attack by exploiting the periodicity of the XOR function? Or is the message 32 bytes long as well?

<comment><USER36> The plaintext is the same length as the hash, so each byte of the hash is xored into only one other byte.

<comment><USER35> Ah, well, that's pretty secure, then.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> If the prize was similar to this one, I think the challenge would be taken more seriously:

[http://16s.us/software/FreeOTP/freeotp_challenge.txt](http://16s.us/software/FreeOTP/freeotp_challenge.txt)

        * Prize

            One small Slurpee or its equivalent monetary value.

</comment><comment><USER38> If they were to release the plaintext of Alice's (or, in their case, Paul's) message, wouldn't that include the secret email address?

FWIW, I agree the contest is a sham for the reasons moxie & others listed here and elsewhere.

<comment><USER39> The contest is only set up that way to make it look more secure, there's really no reason that you would have to prove yourself in that way. If there's an actual cryptographic break then a researcher can prove it without all of the "send email to this address" nonsense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> this is a reminder that prizes or cash for breaking crypto products is a silly PR stunt. mega did the same thing, ended up paying out some money, then their product is "secure" by the same sort of argument. same deal with cryptocat and several other cryptoturds.

i do find it amusing to hear moxie ranting about how much better textsecure is when the license on it is such shit. can't argue with the fact that it's open source, but there is no point in contributing the codebase due to the licensing.

<comment><USER41> The license on the TextSecure app is GPLv3. What would you like to do with TextSecure that this license prohibits?

<comment><USER42> Integrate it and distribute it with non-open-source software. So, any commercial use whatsoever.

<comment><USER42> I understand the down votes, and kind of expected it. But this is the actual practical reality, guys. Large software companies avoid GPLv3 like the plague. If you want your software to be used widely, then you need to use BSD/MIT/Apache/etc.

<comment><USER43> Since when is Google and Oracle not defined as "large software companies"?

Companies that avoid GPLv3 (but not GPLv2) do so because of either the patent clause, or the DRM clause. That is, they either want to by pass the license with legal restrictions, or hardware restrictions.

This is only relevant for external products, and says nothing about internal use. the actual practical reality, _dead seriously_ , is that gplv3 is used by most large software companies that exist in the world. It would surprise me if Microsoft did not have some debian machines laying around somewhere hosting some website.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> public key plz

</comment><comment><USER44> Another guy has butthurt from Telegram. As I read somewhere telegram guys said that after 1st march 2014 they somehow will allow to perform MITM in that crypto challenge

<comment><USER39> If they allow man in the middle attacks then the system is completely and demonstrably broken. The out of band public key verification uses deterministic images to confirm that the keys are the same, which can be easy forged given the relatively bad comparison engines in use (humans describing what a pixelated 16px image looks like). At no point is the real key shown to the user, so it's impossible to verify that they're identical through a description.

[http://telegram.org/img/key_image.jpg](http://telegram.org/img/key_image.jpg)

I wager that if they did allow a tampering eavesdropper in their bounty contest, it would be in the same conversation that has already done a key exchange and verification, making it yet more snake oil. You can hardly call something secure when you don't allow real-world MITM attacks in testing.

<comment><USER15> How is the key image impossible to describe?

There are only 4 possible colors per cell. You just describe it like 0,1,2,3,2,0, etc Just as if you were reading off the real key.

<comment><USER39> From just asking around, most people described the key image to me in terms of the darkest portions and ignored the parts that were lighter. It's easier for the example image to say that there's a dark L and lighter X shape in the center and then assume that the rest is the same. At least, that's how people did when I presented it to them as a challenge.

<comment><USER45> > There's also not that many possible images anyway, there's 8 rows with 8 > columns, and 4 possible colours for each pixel. Even not assuming any fuzzy > matching (human comparison) it's still very possible to generate keys with > colliding image hashes.

Uh, 4^(8*8)=2^128 is a pretty large number.

<comment><USER39> So it is, I've removed that. I need to sleep more.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to track App Store downloads LIVE - <AUTHOR> http://blog.jasimqazi.com/2012/01/16/track-app-store-downloads-live/

<comment><AUTHOR> Would love to hear what others use to track downloads.</comment>


Thanks To Gene Therapy, Monkeys See In Full Color - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112897277&sc=fb&cc=fp <comment><USER2> We have been discussing this article on our work ListServ since it came out on Wired this afternoon (<http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/colortherapy/>). The conversation turned rather quickly to whether or not those of us who were color blind would take the treatment if it was available.

The three of us (out of ~20 people) who were color blind had rather different answers. One guy fell in the middle, he wasn't quite sure one way or the other. The other guy is leaning towards the treatment, primarily because art plays a large roll in his life.

I feel that I would not take the treatment. From what I can tell, being color blind seems to be more of an advantage than a disadvantage for me. While color is nice, it doesn't seem particularly useful in my life. On the other hand, the tendency to notice textures and patterns over the color they are in has frequently been useful to me. I notice movement faster (due to the texture changing, but not the colors), and I notice small differences easier.

I would really like to see how other people weigh in on the issue.

<comment><USER3> Heh interesting argument for color blindness as an optimisation rather than a disability.

Does anyone know if short-sightedness/long-sightedness results in a corresponding benefit to the opposite-sightedness?

<comment><USER2> You have to figure: Color Blindness is a recessive trait (at least in humans, I don't know about other species). In order for it to survive, and even increase in expression over the course of human evolution, it has to carry with it some benefits (admittedly, it is also carried on the X chromosome, which has found to be highly linked to IQ). You also find color blindness in several species of animals, particularly those that are predators.

To be honest, it isn't an optimization. Its a trade off, that has benefits. An example would be being able to see infra-red light. You would be able to see more colors, which comes with all sorts of advantages (distance the color carries, how well it reflects, what it reflects off of, etc), but the trade off would be you would be even worse off when looking at a pattern. For whatever reason, the human brain (at least, this may be true for other species) considers color to encode quite a bit of information, and it is quite high up on the list of things to process.

<comment><USER4> It doesn't have to have a benefit to survive. It just has to not be enough of a hindrance to prevent successful procreation before death.

Think of things which are obviously genetic and also obviously not beneficial, such as near-sightedness or teeth mis-alignment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It would be interesting to find a latent visual ability in humans which could be turned on and allow us to see things in new ways. Like infrared or synesthesia, but maybe something for which we don't have a name.

<comment><USER6> Tetrachromacy?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy>

<http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06256/721190-114.stm>

<comment><USER3> I saw something on this recently.

I have to assume that Y chromosomes have one colour-sensing cone otherwise by this logic all men would be dichromatic?

I'm also struggling to understand how if one X chromosome has these two genes, having two X chromosomes (so more of the same 2 genes) would result in different colour-sensing cones.

Finally, it's interesting that the identified tetrochomats cannot see things in the ultraviolet (or otherwise infrared) spectrum, only increased colour differentiation. Perhaps, they really are but the brain interprets them as related to our existing colour map, in the same way that regular trichromats identify a connection between red and violet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I wonder whether they had a control group, to eliminate the possibility that their "red or green target" wasn't _absolutely_ invisible to a colour-blind monkey but was close enough that it took five months of practice for "Dalton" to work out what he was supposed to be looking for.

(Doesn't seem _likely_ \-- I'd have thought that if he were doing that, he'd have learned much faster.)

</comment><comment><USER8> "Neitz says both monkeys have seemed pretty pleased with themselves ever since."

So cute!

</comment><comment><USER9> Impossible is an opinion.

Empiricism 1, Rationalism 0

<comment><USER9> > "I went out and asked all my neuroscientist friends, 'If I do this in an > adult monkey, will this give them color vision?' " Neitz says. "And everyone > said, 'Absolutely not.' "

> Neitz and his team tried the experiment anyway.

Doing the experiment is empiricism; relying on a conceptual theory is rationalism. Theory is effective for predicting the logical consequences of what is already known; it cannot predict anything else. Whereas empiricism can discover things which are not dreamed of by a particular theory.

Even the famous examples of rationalism, such as Einstein's theory of relativity, and Maxwell's equations which predicted radio waves, were based on empirical observations: that the speed of light appears to be constant in all directions (inconsistent with an _ether_ ); and Faraday's observation that a magnetic field can affect the polarization of light, respectively.

Excessive rationalism is popular in software researchers, but it is not appropriate for any software that interacts with reality - as all useful software does.

<comment><USER4> I think you're suggesting a dichotomy where none exists. The scientific method depends on both.

<comment><USER9> When people say "absolutely not", as here, theory attempts to exclude experiment. It's quite common. I agree both are necessary for healthy science.

<comment><USER4> I don't think people mean "Don't even try" when they say "absolutely not." It's a colloquial expression, not a scientific expression.

<comment><USER9> The article has more on this issue than I have quoted.

I don't know exactly what those individuals meant by "absolutely not", however I'm not seeing a conflict between individuals, but between attitudes (which also exists within an individual.)

When conducting research, individuals vary in their attachment to theory; even within the one researcher, there are conflicting tendencies to follow theory or to test it. I say tendencies, because there isn't a strictly rational way to know when to begin or stop a particular line of experiments. It is, by nature, unknown.

When established theory says that something definitely won't work, one is less encouraged to try the experiment. Therefore I think it's important to celebrate each new discovery - especially when it undermines a theory.

I think you have misinterpreted my comments, especially the longer one.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>