Court orders Google to pay $115k damages for defamatory search engine results - <AUTHOR> http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-court-orders-google-pay-dr-janice-duffy-115000-damages-for-defamatory-search-engine-results/news-story/6713798257490c7c36c15e393880ea44 <comment><USER2> I think Google is not wrong here. It's just a search engine that allows you to search for a phrase on websites all over the internet. It doesn't (or at least shouldn't) attach value to that and take a stance/opinion. It should be left as an exercise to the reader to determine what information is factual and what information is not factual. I think you're getting in muddy waters when you're going to let an algorithm decide whether information is correct or not.

<comment><USER3> The problem is that Google isn't "just a search engine", it is THE search engine. If someone wants to learn about you, he will "google" you. Of course Google didn't chose this, but on the other hand it worked hard to reach this position and keeps working hard to stay there.

It is a very difficult matter to discuss and come up with some rules or limits but it is an issue that should be addressed. Google search results can destroy lives. Inaction isn't an option. With respect to freedom of speech and free trade, we should find some way to mitigate such problems. EU's "right to be forgotten" is a step towards a solution to this puzzle.

<comment><USER4> But it's not the search results that "can destroy lives". It's the website at the end of the search result. _That_ is where the culpability lies.

<comment><USER5> Why stop at the website? Using that logic it's not the website that destroys lives it's the author. But that's not how we have traditionally defined liability in defamation cases, and the reasoning is pretty sound. If the Google search result contains the false statement Google is now part of the problem.

<comment><USER4> Actually, it _is_ how we have traditionally defined liability in defamation cases. This is like suing the newsstand because the local paper is defaming you.

<comment><USER5> Except, according to the article, in this case the Court found Google _published_ and promoted the defamation vis-a-vis its search results.

A newsstand may in fact be liable if they took a defamatory statement out of a paper and published that false statement like an ad/signage attached to the newsstand.

<comment><USER6> > _Except, according to the article, in this case the Court found Google > published and promoted the defamation vis-a-vis its search results._

And the point is that this is stupid. This is like suing a newsstand for displaying the headlines from a local newspaper that is defaming you. This is not publishing.

<comment><USER7> I think it's a bit of a stretch to just call Google a "newsstand". If the same company owned all the newsstands and they all carried the same papers, at what point are they publishing? (Especially if they're excerpting papers to promote them.)

<comment><USER6> > If the same company owned all the newsstands and they all carried the same > papers, at what point are they publishing?

At the point that they're producing the content. Anyone that's simply regurgitating someone else's content is not publishing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm curious, is a TV station liable for content of Syndicated shows, or commercials or all the other content it did not produce but choose to show?

Are newspapers liable for the quotes they print? I thought not, and that is why they always so careful about saying "it was reported" or "so said who and who" to make clear any quotes were not coming from the paper and so they weren't liable.

A search result is even less than a quote. Autosuggest, hmmmm.

Can't google sue for defamation for this statement by Dr Janice Duffy "... I beat the bastards," or this one "... Google can't come into our country, destroy reputations and get away with it."

Both are defamatory and the first is patently false (maybe so much so it then doesn't count as defamation) the second though is certainly debatable and plausibly harmful to Google.

<comment><USER9> TV stations are certainly liable for content they didn't produce but choose to show.

Newspapers can be liable for simply repeating a quote but newsworthiness is a valid defence, provided the context is reporting rather than promoting the opinion.

The question in Google's case is whether the choices applied in their search algorithm constitute promotional choices or whether the engine is merely a robot reporting on available content.

I personally think the court is wrong here but promoting versus reporting is the question in play.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for answer.

So were is the line drawn? Is a book shop liable for the content of the news papers they choose sell? Am I liable for a visible, slanderous headline from newspaper I carry on subway? If network chooses to prioritize traffic (i.e. anti-net-neutrality) are they then liable for content of that traffic?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Is this not an awfully scary precedent? How can Google be expected to modify it's algorithm on-demand in these cases?

<comment><USER11> [https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2744324](https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2744324)

[https://support.google.com/websearch/troubleshooter/3111061](https://support.google.com/websearch/troubleshooter/3111061)

<comment><USER12> >We also remove content in response to valid legal requests

>If you want to remove a photo, profile link, or webpage from Google Search results, you usually need to ask the website owner (webmaster) to remove the information.

It seems she didn't get a judgement against Ripoff Report first. Google is not to blame here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If you're name was at the top of Google as being a Woman beating peadophile and you had tried everything to get rid of it, I'm sure you'd try and get Google to remove it from their index too.

The reputation, career and professional damage can be massive from something like this.

<comment><USER14> Dr Janice Duffy, the woman in the article, had many false & libelous statements written about her on a website - in this case being RipOffReport. Per Google's Removal Policy[1], the search engine forces you to contact a webmaster to remove the offending material yourself, or supply a valid court order of defamation. RipOffReport itself only gives you a few options: 1) She could've written a rebuttal to these claims, or 2) Paid off RipOffReport to do an "Arbitration" (extortion).[2]

She also could've sued RipOffReport in addition to Google - but like Google/Reddit/et al, they are protected by the Communications Decency Act in the States - not making them liable for anything users post.

In the end, what she should've done was sue the original authors of those posts on RipOffReport - winning the case (burden of proof is on her), and then having Google de-list the search result.[3]

Taking the third route in using a court order is by far the best way to go.

[1] [https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1228138](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/1228138) [2] [https://www.ripoffreport.com/Arbitration.aspx](https://www.ripoffreport.com/Arbitration.aspx) [3] [https://support.google.com/legal/troubleshooter/1114905?hl=e...](https://support.google.com/legal/troubleshooter/1114905?hl=en#ts=1115655%2C1282900%2C1115974)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> One allegation is that RipoffReport is basically extorting people by having third parties post unredactable negative reviews on their "forum" and then asking a price to have them removed. RipoffReport is not liable because the forum posts are deemed user generated content, but in this case, Google's autocomplete suggestions are deemed to be published by Google, hence Google's liability. Is this understanding correct?

</comment><comment><USER16> On one hand this seems bad because it implies that Google is sanctioning the links it returns... it's just a search engine, not a content curator. But the IP people have been making Google take down links for years so I suppose it's not that different. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<comment><USER17> Verifying the truth of every anecdote, review, news report, and wiki page Google links to sounds far more difficult than managing copyright claims.

If this stands, will everyone in Australia be able to have pages about them removed from Google searches with a simple request?

<comment><USER15> My interpretation is that the case specifically hinged on whether auto- complete suggestions were published by Google, not the search results themselves.

<comment><USER17> [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/google-ordered-to- pay-...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/google-ordered-to-pay- researcher-more-than-$100k-for-defamation/7051450)

mentions extracts, links, and auto-complete results. My interpretation was that all three were considered defamatory.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> tldr did a story on the Ripoff Report.

[https://gimletmedia.com/episode/40-the-flower- child/](https://gimletmedia.com/episode/40-the-flower-child/)

<comment><USER19> That's Reply All (same hosts as TLDR). This is a great listen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> If this is allowed to stand, it will set a precedent _expanding_ Google's power, not restricting it. Now many content creators must fight under the judgment of _Google_ , rather than the courts, whether what they write is defamation against another person, or risk their websites unlinked from Google's search results.

</comment><comment><USER21> I see this quickly having a Streisand Effect...

<comment><USER22> This is not an attempt to avoid say, knowledge of what a house looks like. If anything, Professor Duffy is more than happy to have the legitimate information about her reputation and this case out there. The problem is with the placement and publicity of false information. She's made multiple public statements and attempts to broadcast her side of this, so it isn't the sort of thing where the Streisand Effect would apply.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Anyone have the text? uBlock Origin blocks the site.

<comment><USER22> Alternative article: [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/google-ordered-to- pay-...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-23/google-ordered-to-pay- researcher-more-than-$100k-for-defamation/7051450)

<comment><USER23> Thanks!</comment></comment></comment>


Announcing Wolfram Alpha Pro - <AUTHOR> http://blog.wolframalpha.com/2012/02/08/announcing-wolframalpha-pro/ <comment><USER2> I love Wolfram Alpha. Every time I think about it, I think it's a grand achievement and an absolutely amazing tool.

I just wish I had any idea what to do with it.

Once in a long while, I'll think of trying a query on it. Mostly for city populations, past Academy Award winners, etc. But I have nothing to do with it on a day-to-day basis.

What do Hacker News users use it for?

<comment><USER3> Mathematics. Plot a difficult function, search limits, derivatives, integrals... Wolfram is the master of calculus. It only fails when I make queries about sets.

<comment><USER4> Mathematics indeed. It can handle complex integrals quite well too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The thing I wish they would do is have data analysis/visualization API. I send data in predefined supported formats ("User Retention Data", "Google Advertising Campaign", etc) and they send back deep/amazing/interactive/visualization reports.

Some companies have tried to create reporting/dashboard services, but I bet Wolfram could do far better job than anyone else has. I could easily see tens of thousands of businesses powering their back office dashboards off Wolfram and paying $100-$200/mo for the privilege.

<comment><USER6> <http://www.tableausoftware.com/>

<comment><USER5> Thanks. I think actually checked them out previously and just did again. I'm sure it was my allergy to "Contact us for pricing", and server software that runs on Windows, that put me off trying it myself. I guess that's "Enterprise" software for you. Maybe it's worth the pain in this case. Those graphics are perty.

<comment><USER7> A very prevalent allergy.

It's a bit buried, but Tableau Public is available for free download.

<http://www.tableausoftware.com/public>

I forget what its limitations are but I remember thinking they weren't too bad.

Also I think your larger point still stands. Tableau is great, but there's still room for more vertically customized analytical reporting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The problem with Wolfram Alpha is this: it's _awesome_ when a query works, but often it either doesn't understand your query on the first try, or it just doesn't have the data or computation you're after.

Siri has the same UI problem. You either have to read through the list of commands and memorize a few, or you have to deal with the constant frustration of trying something three times before giving up and doing it manually.

That said, these UIs are fun for a coder. :-) It'd be cool if somebody were to track and curate interesting Wolfram Alpha queries in a blog/tumblr/subreddit. The closest thing I could find was this:

[http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-search-terms-put-wolfram- alp...](http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-search-terms-put-wolfram-alpha-good- everyday/)

<comment><USER9> Dude did you look at the link?

The new features are all about bypassing that. You just give it the data, instead of a language-esque query.

And there is a lot more UI too, for manipulating plots and such.

<comment><USER8> Sorry, I guess I went off on a tangent not directly related to the link you posted. :-) You're absolutely right. Have you used the new Wolfram Alpha UIs for anything serious yet? How did you find them?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> That is huge. Completely changes the dynamic of how you can interact with Wolfram Alpha.

It is also sure to help plenty of new students with their homework in a completely different way.

</comment><comment><USER11> As a sucker for 3D models, I was drooling all over this:

"When one says "downloading data", one might think just of data behind tables and plots. But Wolfram|Alpha Pro can download all sorts of other data too: 3D geometry data (say to use for a modeling program or a 3D printer), sound data, graph connectivity data, molecular specification data, etc.—in altogether more than 60 formats."

</comment><comment><USER12> Is it me or is the site running at an unbelievably slow pace right now?

Also: Large datasets can apparently screw off, their filesize limit is 1mb.

</comment><comment><USER13> Wow. When they start offering site licenses for this, every university in the world is going to buy one.

(edit: my bad, they already do)

</comment><comment><USER14> Has anyone actually used wolfram alpha regularly? What did you use it for? Not that I think its dumb (well... maybe I'm a little skeptical), but I just haven't thought of any way to use it.

<comment><USER15> I don't use it as much as Google or anything, but I find myself there once or twice a week. Usually it's things like geographic info (population, size), currency or timezone conversion, or various other sort of small things like that.

I enjoy it quite a bit, and I should probably use it for many more things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I use it for quick social arguments and commentary a lot.

E.g., if you know the average age of a senator, and you want to know roughly what it was like when they were 18, you can do [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+1969+adjus...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=minimum+wage+1969+adjusted+for+2011)

</comment><comment><USER17> I breathed a sigh of relief. I was worried that Wolfram has been investing so much into Alpha, all the while not making any money from it. Such unstable arrangements do not last.

This looks like a viable way to earn money with that excellent service, which means it won't disappear any time soon. I'm glad to see that.

</comment><comment><USER18> I love Wolfram Alpha and I'm definitely excited to trial the 'pro' version. I find it more helpful for looking up conversions, anything to do with money/finance and looking for a short history on stuff.

It's quite exciting watching what they do, definitely one of the few companies I respect, for some reason! :)

<comment><USER19> what kind of money/finance info do you find in this tool that you don't in yahoo or google finance?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I hate monthly subscriptions. I would much rather pay a flat fee. Why do no companies do this anymore?

<comment><USER21> Might have something to do with profits. Take a look at this calculation:

[http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%24299+as+percent+of+%2...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%24299+as+percent+of+%28%244.99+per+month+for+30+years%29)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Query: how many edges has a complete graph?

Result: Consult complete graph.

So not a very intelligent algorithm, no AI</comment>


Difference Between Seed Stage and Growth Stage Decisions - <AUTHOR> http://iamvictorio.us/post/29356467513/difference-between-seed-stage-and-growth-stage-decisions

<comment><USER2> What drives decisions, the post says, during seed stage is survival, and during growth stage are values.

I would contend that during seed stage the company is still churning out MVPs to get to PMF. While at growth stage it is about refining scalable repeatable business model. In both stages the company is driven by the core values of effectively solving customers problems and not take survival for granted.</comment>


Need help to set ODBC MySQL driver - <AUTHOR> I have gone through the tutorials available in different website to set ODBC MySQL driver. Last month, I have committed a project and it is to develop a website for custom essay writing service. The client has some tough requirements. So, I wish to make some changes in the tools and software used for web development. Now, I need your help to set ODBC MySQL driver. Please help me. <comment><USER2> This is a common issue and I am sure that you can set your ODBC MySQL driver by following the tutorials. Read the tutorials carefully. If you can't set this properly, you can ask to the client to make some changes in the requirements. Hope you can create a best website for custom essay writing service. [http://essayssos.com/](http://essayssos.com/)</comment>


Windows 95 Startup Sound Slowed 4000% - <AUTHOR> https://soundcloud.com/ideoforms/windows-95-startup-sound

<comment><USER2> Someone is getting a disproportionate amount of praise for what, in all likelihood, amounts to running a pre-existing sound through PaulStretch and posting it to SoundCloud.

I realise they try and link to more information about both the process of doing this and the original creators of the Windows 95 sounds, but both links as of writing this end up in 404s.

<comment><USER3> [http://www.erase.net/weblog/2015-08/windows-startup- sounds-s...](http://www.erase.net/weblog/2015-08/windows-startup-sounds- slowed-4000)

[http://createdigitalmusic.com/2015/08/windows-startup- sounds...](http://createdigitalmusic.com/2015/08/windows-startup-sounds- transformed-amazing-ambient-music/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Since it's Eno, i'd guess at least a few DX7's (this is something every synth player is going to try replicate, like Pink Floyd's On the Run</comment>


Ask HN: Would anyone be interested in a darknet dropbox type thing? - <AUTHOR> Hey everyone! I created a nice alternative to dropbox that's 100% encrypted and is anonymous. Each account comes with there own .onion url and has all the same abilities as dropbox accept the added feature to be able to code in a built in IDE. Is this something anyone would be interested in? Let me know your thoughts! Thanks! <comment><USER2> Set up a website and submit a Show HN instead of asking if people care every few hours please.

<comment><USER3> [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The FBI certainly would be interested!

</comment><comment><USER5> I think you could easily start with forks of

ZeroNet (distributed TOR hosting): [https://zeronet.io](https://zeronet.io) [https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet](https://github.com/HelloZeroNet/ZeroNet)

and either: SecureDrop: [https://securedrop.org](https://securedrop.org) [https://github.com/freedomofpress/securedrop](https://github.com/freedomofpress/securedrop)

or NextCloud: [https://nextcloud.com](https://nextcloud.com) [https://github.com/nextcloud](https://github.com/nextcloud)

Though basically you're just routing .onion at a bucket.

Another thing to look at would be building on [https://libcloud.apache.org/](https://libcloud.apache.org/) [https://libcloud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/supported_provider...](https://libcloud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/supported_providers.html) or [https://jclouds.apache.org/](https://jclouds.apache.org/) [https://jclouds.apache.org/reference/providers/](https://jclouds.apache.org/reference/providers/)

And providing a storage target. Though you have to consider the possibility of seizure of the host[s] by the service providers state.

See: [https://www.deepdotweb.com/2017/06/10/french-police- seized-t...](https://www.deepdotweb.com/2017/06/10/french-police-seized-tor- relays-wannacry-investigation/)

[https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/french- police...](https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/french-police-seize- two-tor-relays-in-wannacry-investigation/)

<comment> m-p-3 I suppose a mix of Tor + Storj could do it

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> What benefit does this service provide over onionshare? [https://onionshare.org/](https://onionshare.org/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Well there two different things. Darkbox is a cloud file hosting service. It has the ability to make custom .Onion urls to share files but includes much more like a built in IDE for code and text processing, video and photo viewing, and much more!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I hope you are using a throwaway account to ask this question.</comment>


PayPal's Super Bowl 50 Commercial - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dF9t_xQGks <comment><USER2> That was intensely boring, and I feel almost insulted by it, but I don't know why.

I guess as someone who has worked with PayPal as a developer in the last six months for a large org, the commercial just seems like a blatant lie. There is nothing new about them. Tech support was barely there. The UI/UX of management tools was pretty bad. At one point, a person I was talking to on the phone just straight up asked me, "Have you heard of Braintree?" Though Braintree is owned by PayPal, we will actually be moving toward it because it is so much better than what PayPal presented us otherwise.

In the end, I don't think of PayPal as "New Money" I lump them in with the old money. When I think new money I think Stripe, Braintree, Coinbase, etc.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm curious to see if they improve over time after being unshackled from eBay.</comment>


Good idea bad implementation crosstalk - <AUTHOR> https://flak.tedunangst.com/post/good-idea-bad-implementation-crosstalk <comment><USER2> > Allowing the user to control the noise cancelling profile on a pair of > wireless headphones with a phone app instead of further cluttering the > headphones themselves is a good idea.

Alternatively: allowing the user to control the noise cancellation on a pair of headphones from the headphones themselves instead of further cluttering the user's phone is a good idea.

<comment><USER3> The physical space available on headphones for buttons and such is quite limited tho, and adding a screen is probably prohibitively expensive.

<comment><USER4> Two dials. All you need are two dials. If you can't find space for that on headphones then you should consult a physician.

My friend has a pair. On one can is the speaker volume, on the other is the noise cancelling. So effectively one volume knob for your music, and one for the outside world. It's dead simple and sensible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The subreddit GTBAE is a fun place to find more of these - instances where people had the right idea but went about it the wrong way. (And it also has it's inverse ATBGE where people had the wrong idea and executed flawlessly).

<comment><USER6> Tangential: the opposite of that sub is r/ATBGE which is about things that aren't well thought out (i.e. too dumb, offensive, trashy etc) but executed really well.

<comment><USER7> Stuff posted to r/ATBGE is often neither. The occasional gem though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> … because in many cases, whoever gets there first with the wrong solution makes the social default be to continue using that, indefinitely, instead of developing something else which people will hesitate to switch to instead?

The rapidity of settlement of common knowledge in Internet time breaks a lot of the natural frictional mitigations, too.

"Oh, the path dependence is real" (said in the tone of a gaming commentator).

</comment><comment><USER9> Does anybody know of someplace online (forum, blog, whatever) where sensibly- designed smart-home devices/sensors are curated? A la "/r/buyitforlife for unclouded smart devices", or something.

<comment><USER10> communities around open-source home automation software tend to have some of that, at least for "can run offline" and "has a reasonable open way of accessing it". E.g. the communities around home assistant: [https://old.reddit.com/r/homeassistant/](https://old.reddit.com/r/homeassistant/) and [https://community.home-assistant.io/](https://community.home- assistant.io/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> > Allowing the user to control the noise cancelling profile on a pair of > wireless headphones with a phone app instead of further cluttering the > headphones themselves is a good idea.

Bad idea. UI complexity should be proportional to the product use and customization complexity. If there are 3 basic levels for noise cancelling, then mechanical slider will suffice. If production quality is good it will last. I don't want to pull up my phone to perform such a mundane and simple task. Leave smart phone apps for more detailed and sophisticated configuration, which is probably not needed at all for such a device as noise cancelling headphones.

<comment><USER7> Is changing the noise cancellation profile on a pair of headphones a mundane task?

I'm wondering specifically about it being common. I would expect to do it rarely and be pleased if "more" and "less" weren't the only options.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Over engineering and not talking to customers is really at the crux of this post.

On the meat thermometer, I bought an instant thermometer last year for $12. Best money I ever spent. The old fashion mechanical ones I use to leave in a roast are not that great. I use them to show me approximate temps, but I like to get a real temp with the instant thermometer. Works great on the grill also to ensure you don't over do the steaks.

<comment><USER13> > Over engineering and not talking to customers is really at the crux of this > post.

Is it? I expect that a substantial portion of unnecessarily complicated IoT devices aren't really about pleasing the person who buys the device, but rather about establishing a foothold in someone's house to achieve some other business objective.

For instance, it's hard to find a plain TV these days that doesn't have a network connection. Maybe dumb TVs don't sell, but it's also possible that smart TVs are actually cheaper to make because the "smart" part is subsidized by whoever stands to make the most money from its pre-installed apps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> > Sometimes this phenomenon even seeps into software development where > somebody will solve a problem, but uses the wrong solution, and we hate it.

I see what you did there. "Sometimes". :)</comment>


Mourning the End of Paper Maps - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2019/oct/20/the-perfect-combination-of-art-and-science-mourning-the-end-of-paper-maps <comment><USER2> Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities.

Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had.

I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books.

The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re- downloading all my books, well I guess I won't read on my subway ride home. If my _map_ does that in northern Scandinavia, well now I am fucked.

Just print 5 maps and laminate them and you're pretty safe against weather and time. Not so much with a digital map.

Print something and it will show that print as long as it is not physically destructed. Not so much with a digital map ("oh, our services don't work in this country ha ha. Did you not read the t&c?")

Sun glare. Off the grid for three weeks. Weight. None of this is a problem with analog maps.

I guess you can solve most of these problems by throwing lots of money at god knows what military/navy device, thus I specified non-rich people. Or you know, just use a paper map.

<comment><USER3> As far as I know, the US Army still teaches land navigation using a paper map, protractor, pencil, and compass. At least they did when I was in (early 2000s).

Getting caught with a GPS-capable device on the land nav course was considered cheating.

<comment><USER4> Similarly, the Navy still teaches celestial navigation. Officially it's the primary means of navigation, but I suspect a lot of navigators cheat.

<comment><USER5> Celestial navigation has not been a primary means of navigation at any time since I was on active duty from 1995-2018. It has only recently begun to be taught again at all -- maybe in the last 3-4 years IIRC.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I actually print and use paper maps a lot, specifically topographic maps. We do a decent amount of backcountry riding, and while not completely accurate, the USFS and USGS maps have various trails marked on them that are useful.

USGS publishes nicely formatted quadrangle-sized PDFs when smaller areas are enough, and CalTopo provides custom PDF generation when it's more useful to specify a range. These I print at home on a 24" Epson 7800 and some paper I really like for the purpose (iGage Weatherproof Paper).

<comment><USER7> In the Scottish hills I carry an iPhone with OS mapping app with a backup external battery pack, and usually a 'proper' OS paper map and a backup printout of my route overlaid on an OS map. The idea that paper maps were obsolete is news to me!

More than once I've had to give people my backup paper map copy because they had no idea where they were, usually as their phone has run out of charge!

<comment><USER8> The Ordinance Survey digital maps are great. But, yeah, I carry an external battery pack, often even a spare smartphone, _and_ a paper map. The paper is mostly just a backup but I don't want to be in a situation hiking where a dead phone puts me in a bad position.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I knew some folks that worked for Natural Resources Canada. They were part of the "press team" who printed all sorts of wonderful maps. The press room held an enormous high-speed press... I loved the smell of the place. Ink, oil, machinery and reams of paper. These guys... so highly skilled, as much art as technology. The maps were beautiful...even the ones with mistakes. They would cut them up and make scratch pads out of them. All this was shut down years ago... they knew the end was coming. It makes me sad just thinking about it.

</comment><comment><USER10> There is no way that digital maps are anywhere near as practical, let alone _more_ practical, yet.

Digital maps:

* rely on precious battery charge and weight

* aren't very robust

* are extremely hard to use in the dark or with night vision

* can't be cut and folded into something small and light enough to hold in a hand

* when portable aren't large enough for displaying on a table or wall for people to gather around

<comment><USER11> Paper maps:

* weight a lot more than digital

* aren't robust to water, dirty, or even manipulation

* require extra equipment to read on the dark

* can be cut and folded, but lose usefulness on the process (I really don't get your claim that cell phones can't be hold in a hand)

But that last point is spot on. Ditto for the people talking about writing on the map (digital could improve on this front).

Anyway navigating a paper map requires some careful folding and unfolding that is quite slow, and you must carefully select what maps you'll bring every time, while for digital maps you just bring the entire continent.

I don't see how one can declare any of them a clear win. The answer depends too much on your use case.

<comment><USER10> > aren't robust to water, dirty, or even manipulation

You just laminate them.

<comment><USER12> And while they're at it, they should laminate their phone because it's not robust to water, dirt or even manipulation either.

I know, I know, IP ratings. Okay... good luck.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> There's a beautiful map store in London that I visited. If I recall, everything in there are contemporary "originals" \-- meaning printed in that year, no re-printing. So a 1973 map of the Underground was from 1973. They also had very old, beautiful maps. I wanted them all!

After 20 minutes, I began to realize my wife was casually leafing through dozens of poster-size maps with £30,000 price stickers on them. My jaw nearly dropped. Her hands held "art" that they valued at close to £500,000++. I also realized I couldn't afford the map I wanted and left empty-handed

<comment><USER14> You can also visit the National Library of Scotland Map Room in Edinburgh - they have a mindboggling 1.5 million sheet maps. [https://www.nls.uk/collections/maps](https://www.nls.uk/collections/maps)

While they don't sell originals, they do reproductions on demand for a lot less than 500k. I was just looking at a 1934 sheet for my wall, £27. Tho mainly I go to their site to jump back and forth in time, they have a great georeferenced map browser that lets you see how places have changed.

<comment><USER13> Great news! I'll have to check that out, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> One advantage of paper maps, for me, is that they're much better at installing a 'model' for a city in your head.

With digital maps, I can navigate from place to place to place pretty easily. But then I retain virtually no information. I end up with no 'nose' for how to find my own way home.

But if I study a map on paper, laboriously plan my route in advance, and then follow it IRL — it's like magic. That route is installed there forever.

Do that enough times, and navigating even really crazy big cities starts to become instinctual. No GPS required.

<comment><USER16> Yup, that's basically what I do on my motorcycle. I map out a route in my head and try to memorize it. Even if I miss a road, I have a pretty good mental model for alternative routes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Paper charts are still alive and well in sailing

<comment><USER18> Well, they're alive. The USCG made paper charts optional for US-flagged vessels in 2017. Most cruisers use chartplotters at the helm, and chart apps on phones or tablets for route planning.

At this point, I tend to use my iPhone at the helm as well. The charts are updated more often, and the location and tracking are very accurate (with an external Bluetooth GPS).

[https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/18/2017-15...](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/18/2017-15056/equivalency- determination-for-marine-charts-charts-or-maps-publications-and-navigation)

[https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/DCO%20Documents/5p/5ps/NV...](https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/DCO%20Documents/5p/5ps/NVIC/2016/NVIC_01-16_electronic_charts_and_publications.pdf)

<comment><USER17> Obviously sailors are using modern navigational aids, they're a huge improvement when they're operational.

But I sure hope you still keep your sextant and charts dry and safe below deck somewhere if you spend any time at sea.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm convinced that learning how to navigate with a map book, made me less likely to get lost.

</comment><comment><USER20> I own a few Butler motorcycle maps. Phones kind of being impossibly inconvenient on a bike. My riding suit even has a giant back pocket specifically for easy access to a map.

</comment><comment><USER21> We come at this from a strange perspective, as we dealt in old maps for the last thirty years or so, mostly paper, but on occasion things on silk, cotton or rayon.

It's an amazing non-proprietary technology, paper. Even things that are water damaged over the centuries, or obscured by foxing (a kind of staining), many times can be reversed and brought back to a clean state(we've worked some near miracles ourselves on some 18th century maps just recently). Without vulnerability to bit-flip, or cosmic rays compromising the data and rendering a work useless and corrupt, paper is lo-tech and easily enduring.

The paper map also enables a comprehensive view of the subject at many different scales, without having to move a cursor, pinch or expand... none of that, your eyes just take in and adjust. The benefit is an understanding of context and relationship. When we do presentations at schools it always interests us that there is a fragmented understanding of how things relate for some students, which almost feels like an artifact of digital cartography. In a digital world the constant zooming in an out, first to find the greater region, and then to reach down into the detail of a street or land feature. The problem is at that tight detailed scale, it's hard to see how it relates to much of its surroundings. You can push around at that detailed level and form some understanding, but it feels abstract, especially for those that don't have the best visual memory. The paper map affords a certain level of pattern recognition at different scales of detail without constant enlarging and reorienting.

We have maps going as far back as the late 15th century with the matrix of the paper being made of nothing more than cotton fiber, not gold or titanium, just simple cotton. When we read of the challenge of preserving the digital world and the technological progress of our species, it does concern us that even the best storage technologies available might reach 100 years or so.

Timothy O'Reilly in a talk a few years ago mentioned the danger of how technology can be lost. He mentioned how the great church, Hagia Sophia was the largest building on earth for about 1000 years, but then there was a long pause before anything came close to its stature again, almost as if the technical understanding of how to build at that scale was lost. In an era where almost everything is developed, distributed and saved in a digital format, perhaps we should print more hard copies, not just for backup purposes, but maybe for the unique perspective that that simple 2 dimensional surface can supply.

</comment><comment><USER22> It might be an unpopular opinion, but in my experience a sizable amount of paper maps is just bad. I have more than once regretted buying hiking maps which where missing trails or roads. These will die first (if they haven't already), and I can't say I am sorry.

</comment><comment><USER23> Screens are a transitional display medium: ubiquitous holographic projection will make them as paper is to screens today.

</comment><comment><USER24> When we break up Big Tech, should we make them subsidize all these neat and skilled professions they've effectively replaced?

</comment><comment><USER25> My brother new by profession alot of the paper cartographing crowd. They where absolutly blown away by google maps. The concept, that somebody would freely give away satellite images, the gold coins of cartography, was beyond imagination for them.

Sometimes i think, this was the plan behind the piracy support by some companys for some time. Disrupt the media companys and then take over.

Supply what others depend on for free - and wait until the industry collapses, then rule the wastelands.</comment>


What books can I read to improve my writing? - <AUTHOR> In the past, my writing has been good enough to get the job done for classes. However, I would like to learn to write in a way that is enjoyable to read. I know that the usual advice is to read and write more often, but I was hoping that HN would have some book suggestions to improve my prose. <comment><USER2> On Writing by Stephen King is quite good. Depending on where you'll be writing, Content Strategy for the Web by Kristina Halvorson might be useful, too.

<comment><USER3> A great suggestion. And I'll second King's own suggestion to read The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. Though, some of its advice might be a bit dated and best used in small doses. But to will provide a great foundation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "On Writing Well" by William Zinsser. Considered by many to be the best guide to non-fiction writing.

<comment><USER5> I can only agree with it. I summarized my learnings from the book, if you are interested to have a look what it is about: [https://www.robinwieruch.de/lessons-learned-on-writing- well/](https://www.robinwieruch.de/lessons-learned-on-writing-well/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The best book on understanding what style means: _Clear and Simple as the Truth_. Every other book just has confusing "this is The Correct Way", which is wrong, it all depends.

Once you understand style, either try for style they mostly talk about in that book (classical style), or if you want practical style then _Revising Prose_ or _Style: Toward Clarity and Grace_ are good.

</comment><comment><USER7> There are so many. Writing, like any other skill, can be taught and learned. Don't just practice and passively observe.

Thinking in Style, Pinker

Revising Prose, Lanham

Good Prose, Kidder</comment>


13 year old prodigy claims age discrimination by UConn - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100325/ap_on_re_us/us_prodigy_study_abroad <comment><USER2> I was a classmate of Colin's, and I want to emphasize that he is extremely well adjusted. When he was in high school he struck everyone as a bright--if a little smaller than usual--high school student. So I'd love to not hear any "he should go back and play with his age-mates so he can develop social skills, yadayada." The truth is, 13 year olds are obnoxious, and if I could've skipped that and started interacting with adults earlier I would've.

<comment><USER3> I started college when I was 12, and yes, I was more mature than most of my classmates.

However, I didn't go full time. I still went back to high school. There is some social learning that you just miss out on if you don't spend time with your age-peers.

High School sucked, but I'd still do it all over again.

In the best interest of the kid, they should really send him to interact with some age-peers in some sort of activity, if not High School.

That said, I don't think UConn should be preventing him, especially if his mom will go at her expense.

<comment><USER4> Several times during my education, my teachers petitioned the school to promote me to more advanced grades. They felt my potential was being stunted. My mother, and sometimes other teachers, thought it would be better to stay with kids my own age, so I never progressed.

I didn't get _anything_ out of interacting with my age group. I may have been _worse_ off for it. I was constantly frustrated by my classmates who asked questions and held up the lesson. We went too slow. I was repeatedly asked to help other students with their homework and even test questions. I always won the math contests, spelling bees and the like to the chagrin of students and even _teachers_ in higher level classes. It created resentment that I faced when I became their students in later years.

When I went to college, I had APed out of almost every freshman class and went straight to sophomore level courses in Physics, Mathematics, and Computer Science. I was never treated differently by the older kids and felt more comfortable with them. They didn't mind asking me for help even.

So I see little anecdotal evidence that stunting a child's potential to give them time to interact with kids their own age is beneficial. Really, what does age have to do with it? As a child, I had better conversations with adults than with children. As a kindergartner I had better conversations with the seniors in high school. I went to a school with K-12 in the same building, so it was easier to interact with older kids, which I much preferred and they seemed to be quite entertained by me as well, so in retrospect, I think everyone would have benefited had I been able to progress at my intellectual rate, rather than the rate at which the earth moves around the sun.

<comment><USER3> Just to clarify, I wasn't advocating holding the kid back. I was just saying it is important to have that social interaction with your age-peers, especially as a teen.

As some anecdotal evidence, take some of my college classmates who also started early. Most of us went back to high school, but a few just went full time college. After two years, this one guy wanted to transfer to Cal Tech. He was more than smart enough, but after the interview, they told him he wasn't social enough. They suggested to him that he join some youth clubs and get some social interaction with his peers, and they would reconsider him.

So he joined every club he could find, and it made a _huge_ difference. He was much easier to talk to and just more fun to be around.

And then he transferred to Cal Tech.

<comment><USER5> "I was just saying it is important to have that social interaction with your age-peers, especially as a teen."

Why?

No, seriously, step back a moment. Why is it important that I socialize with high schoolers just because they share the same chronological age? Do you spend a lot of time interacting with people in a high-school fashion? I sure don't.

High-school culture is a dead end; it's an artificial construct brought on by artificial constraints that don't exist in the real world. If high-school culture is anything, it's a trap; all of use who have been out of it for at least five years can probably name a group of people who are "still in high school", to their social and professional detriment.

The only alternative worse than that is no acculturation at all, but that's not usually what's on the table, and that's a pathological outcome regardless of how you get there. School culture is just one step up from that, almost anything else will get you more _real-world_ cultural skills than that.

<comment><USER6> In fairness every kid I know (about 6 or 7 I guess) who has been pushed up several years in school is generally either completely anti-social or officious and unfriendly (I am being nice here unfortunately). Obviously that is not a complete metric; but all of them, I am sure, are that way due to a lack of social proof/interaction at a crucial point in their lives (early teens).

In this case Colin seems well adjusted and "not a prick" - but there could be all manner of exterior reasons for that.

It's also wrong, I think, to consider high school as training for adult social structure; it clearly is nothing like that. But it does teach you some important things - you face the same issues at the same time as everyone else (example: all of the kids I saw bumped up several levels were either incredibly sexist or had serious issues with women. Typical of the kind of insecurities you face at that age - but when everyone around you has already dealt with that it is hard to sort out).

> all of use who have been out of it for at least five years can probably name > a group of people who are "still in high school", to their social and > professional detriment.

Agreed; however I don't agree that a different way would have produced any different results. They are stuck there for a variety of reasons - none of them directly _because_ of the high school culture.

<comment><USER5> In programming, I have found it's very useful to step back and remember _why_ we do things. Unit tests are not intrinsically wonderful, they are a great way to accomplish certain things. If they don't accomplish those things, dump them. Just as a concrete example.

If your goal is to produce a well-socialized child, _keep your eyes on the prize_. You describe some cases where in fact following the suggestion of leaving them in high school didn't work out; this also matches my experience. My point here is that actually you _can't_ make a call about whether you should leave a given person in high school; in the exact same environment, one will flourish and learn a lot, the other will crash and burn and learn horribly pathological things.

So, ultimately, my point is that if your goal is to have a "good child" (without getting into whatever that may mean), debating whether "children" should or should not be left in school or never accelerated or moved to college or anything is actually a waste of time, because there is no such thing as a "children" in the first place.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My university is banning under 18s after several centuries of admitting brilliant child prodigies. Simply because government rules call for detailed background checks for anyone working with children. We aren't sure if this would only apply to a kid's teachers, all teaching staff, all researchers, all staff or even every other >18year old student they met.

Not joking - there was a case about whether in high school any student who turned 18 in their final year needed a police check if they helped a still 17yro student with their work and so were 'in a teaching position'

</comment><comment><USER8> The university should have told him when he enrolled for the course that some classes might not be possible because of his age.

"Summer field work" sounds like it could have a marked degree of risk and/or physical effort required. If that is the case, then I can see that it might not be a good idea for a kid to do them (regardless of how bright or mature he is).

<comment><USER9> Right, but replace a 13 year old with a 20 year old in a wheel chair and you can see where this gets interesting. If it is a requirement for his degree, I am not sure physical fitness can be used as a determent.

I have to say though, I just finished up a fields method class and they are not easy. And mine was just in the woods of Connecticut not in Africa.

<comment><USER10> It's different. Just because a 13 year old succeeds academically does not mean he has the skills to handle himself outside of a protected environment.

The world will not care what his IQ is and will not treat him as special. He's a liability in South Africa, full stop. It would take a lot of money and/or risk to send him, so I support their choice.

<comment><USER11> So what assessment is made to ensure that any given 18,19,20+ year old " has the skills to handle himself outside of a protected environment"?

That's right, none, but the arbitrary assumption that they are "old enough".

It's just as arbitrary assuming THIS 13-year old is "not capable".

<comment><USER12> There is the difference in legal responsibility of the university. I think this is probably the biggest stumbling block here - even with parental consent there is risk to the school.

Imagine facing the newspaper headline "UConn loses 13-year-old prodigy in South Africa" . . .

<comment><USER11> Per the article, his mother offered to chaperon him at her own expense...makes your point kind of moot.

<comment><USER12> How so? He is still participating within the school's program. Just because his mom signs the field trip slip (or tags along herself) doesn't absolve the school from any and all responsibility for his well being. What sort of insurance policy do you think a school needs to fly a 13 year old from Connecticut to South Africa for a week? How about a 13 year old prodigy?

I'm all for Colin being able to have this experience - I absolutely would have been thrilled to participate in something like this at any age. I don't think the school has any obligation to allow him to participate in this activity however.

<comment><USER11> If they allowed him to enroll in this field of study but are now limiting his access to the curriculum, they should have just refused his tuition. That's the legal obligation.

Did you read the article? She offered to sign an explicit legal waiver and accompany him on the trip at her own expense?

It appears they family is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to compromise. If the university would look to "solve" the problem vs. outright denial - the family would probably pay cost of any "additional insurance" rider.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's not a question of whether or not age discrimination is going on (as the title seems to suggest), the question is whether or not the discrimination is legally justified. The courts will decide that at no small expense to the family and the university. There is plenty of legal discrimination regarding minors designed to protect them. You don't really have same rights as other adults in the US until you turn 18 or (even 21).

In my opinion, the university should allow him to go with the provision that he is chaperoned by a legal guardian.

<comment><USER14> I agree. With his mother willing to sign a waiver releasing the school of any liability and being willing to go with him, at her own expense, I think they should allow him to go. Without those two things, I think they're perfectly justified in saying "no" but with both of those in place, he should be allowed to go and study.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it acceptable to discriminate based on age, except under the terms of the ADEA, which only protects people >= 40 in the workplace?</comment>


Kevin Rose Joins Google - Business Insider - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/kevin-rose-joins-google-2012-3 <comment><USER2> Why does it have 3 points. It's stale news.

</comment><comment><USER3> ...

<comment><USER4> I think OP might be a little late to the party</comment></comment>