Show HN: dfsch - my originally toy Scheme implementation - <AUTHOR> http://dfsch.org/ <comment><USER2> Looks like a fork of newLISP (www.newlisp.org), although documentation of dfsch isn't as good as newLISP's.

I like the html generation in Your "http-server-demo". That's looking pretty simple.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not related to newLISP in any way, even core language is significantly different. dfsch has only lexical scoping (I'm not entirely convinced of which way to add dynamic scoping to scheme is best) while IIRC newLISP has only dynamic.

And as for documentation: writing documentation sucks :) Originally I thought that doc-strings and automatic generation will take care of most work, but it simply isn't so.

HTML generation (and XML parsing, I tried to use NetSurf's HTML5 parser too, but then gave up) is inspired by S-XML ( <http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/SXML.html>) but with the grammar of structure modified to reflect that dfsch has packages (node names are strings instead of symbols) and for convenience (node names can be keywords, attributes can be specified without '(@ ...)'). My long-term idea is to write set of DOM-like generic functions to manipulate this structure but I haven't yet got to do it.

<comment><USER3> > I'm not entirely convinced of which way to add dynamic scoping to scheme is > best

I believe the way Kernel[1,2,3] handle this is really great. A `vau` expression is like a `lambda` expression (it's a lexically scoped fexpr actually) except that its operands (~ arguments) are passed in call-by-text and there is an extra argument which is the dynamic environment of the call site. This way you can `eval` the operands in the dynamic environment if you want to, but you can also `eval` quoted symbols or expressions in this same environment, thus achieving dynamic scoping.

This is very powerful, `vau` expressions can replace functions and macros altogether (and you have first class macros "for free" for instance). The counterpart is that I don't know if this kind of code can be compiled down to efficient code.

[1] <http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html> \- John N. Shutt's Kernel page.

[2] <http://klisp.org/> \- An implementation of Kernel.

[3] <http://axisofeval.blogspot.fr/> \- a blog which talks a lot about Kernel.

<comment><AUTHOR> this is mostly orthogonal to issue I have. Syntax-wise I want either Common Lisp or IsLisp style special variables, with selection of syntax being predicated on other concerns like performance, interaction with multiple threads (dfsch was originally fully multithreaded, current implementation uses global interpreter lock only for few rare operations, which is faster than fine-grained locking) and isolation between multiple lexical environments (so dynamic variables have to be partially lexicaly scoped)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What to learn now for a Ruby / Rails developer? - <AUTHOR> Hello,
First of all - please humor me if the question is somewhat colloquially phrase - I approached this as a question I would ask a knowledgeable acquaintance at the coffee-shop.
I know and love Rails and have enjoyed using Ruby last few years. In particular I enjoyed the fact that Ruby has so many different libraries, tools ported  / adapted to it - I could do NLP projects, ML projects even some OpenCV stuff. Rails was great for quickly deploying fun web projects even as a joke for friends and family or for testing out some APIs. It seems like RoR is at it's dusk and I need to move on though.
What would be a good framework / language to learn to catch up with state of the art web programming?
I know Javascript, Python so am looking for something new that has potential to become as universal as RoR has been (was? still is?)
I looked into Go and it's appealing but it seems like it has more of a 'build everything from scratch' which is great, but not so fun when I need to build something quickly to interact with some API.
Ideally I am looking for something that would complement my foray into machine learning which I am attempting right now. So.. is there a ML-friendly language that has somewhat 'universal' ambitions, has web frameworks and enthusiastic community? <comment><USER2> I see a lot of RoR shops (and a few Laravel ones which is similar to RoR in many ways) moving to Elixir/Phoenix.

I've considered it myself, there are some use cases where Elixir on BEAM is a nice fit I've run into.</comment>


The solution to (nearly) everything: working less - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/18/solution-everything-working-less-work-pressure <comment><USER2> I really wish there were jobs out there that let you do this. My ideal work week is 32 hours, with occasional bursts of more. I've met very few traditional workplaces that were very open to the idea of part time schedules.

For me, focus is all or nothing during work hours. I'd much rather bring fire for fewer hours each day, and then recharge with some of my other pursuits.

<comment><USER3> Teaching?

Not sure if it would pay enough where you are; and not sure if you would want to try it (not easy work if you do it properly).

Teaching can be fractionalised quite easily - I do 3/4 of a standard teaching week so I teach fewer classes spread over 4 days. To fit your second paragraph, you would need to be very disciplined about getting the preparation and marking done within your chosen working days.

<comment><USER4> That last sentence is absolutely key. Most people do not understand that the time commitment involved in teaching is not well approximated by the amount of time spent in front of the class.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't know, did Keynes ever understood how capitalism works? Capitalism is competition. If your employees work less, your competitor's employees will work full time and overtime, getting their product to market faster and reaping all the rewards. It works with entire countries as competitive agents (see China). "Winner takes it all" operation mode of modern markets amplifies the magnitude of the problem.

Another issue is management overhead. Managing 10 people working full-time is easier (perhaps exponentially) than managing 40 people working 1/4 time. Easier means cheaper, which means that you are better positioned in the competition. This is why every rational company will hire 10 people full-time and leave the other 30 unemployed, instead of hiring all 40 for quarter of the time.

I see no solution to this problem in peacetime (Keynes' own solution famously didn't work). In wartime, of course, there are nearly no unemployed.

<comment><USER6> I think you're forgetting to take into account the effect of longer hours on productivity (negative), and the fact that our working hours are a choice which (within a certain range) don't seem to have a strong effect on actual results in the "marketplace".

In the developed world, the 40-hour week is standard both because 60-hour weeks are less-productive, and because as a society we've chosen to prioritize health and happiness over the (mostly imagined) productivity of a longer workweek. But 40 isn't a magical number, it's possible 30 would work just as well or better.

<comment><USER5> As long as the productivity stays the same or increased, this option is viable. But if not, it isn't. Increased productivity from shorter hours is good, of course, but Keynes thought that even decreased productivity could be fine, as at some point it will be "enough".

Here's the catch: under competitive market economy, there is never "enough". And if you pass on market economy in your country, there are other countries who will outcompete you, both economically and militarily.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> And exercising more.

I'm fairly certain the optimal work week is ~30-35 hrs, and the optimal exercise time is 6-8 hrs/week.

Imagine how low the health care costs could be if we were somehow mandated by a benevolent dictator to do some activities at work (our preferred sport for example).

One can dream.

<comment><USER8> This would be acceptable if the benevolent dictator also participated in 6-8 hrs/week of exercise, and it was televised raw on CSPAN.

At the very least it would be a good motivator, and at I bet it'd be very humanizing too. "Oh man, our B.D. only did 7 reps when he was aiming for 10. Look at that sad puppy face! Just exhausted, but he has 20 more minutes to go."

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Crazy that, though this is so widely known, nothing has really changed in the last 100 years. Instead, wages stay stagnant, and cost of living rises. Hours needed to survive increase. It's all so illogical, it's crazy.

<comment> james-watson It's illogical from a rational, maximum-utility-for-all perspective.

However, looking at it from the point of view of a primate status hierarchy competition, it makes perfect sense. The apex individuals derive pleasure from subjugating their lower status colleagues, and thus seek to make their lives as miserable as possible.

From this point of view, all of human history makes sense. We are but primates, and no amount of highbrow pontificating can change that.

Starting today, if the powerful wanted to, they could design a rational system that maximizes happiness and minimizes suffering for the largest number of people possible. But then, there is no incentive in the primate brain to foster such an endeavor. Even philanthropists, instead of uniting and agreeing on a shared vision, compete with each other for status amongst themselves by virtue signalling their own superiority over their peers.

It is nature red in tooth and claw. We are no exception.

<comment><USER10> >Starting today, if the powerful wanted to, they could design a rational system that maximizes happiness and minimizes suffering for the largest number of people possible.

In the same breath you pointed out why such a system does not work then state such a system is possible, I don't think anyone with power would ever genuinely want to enact such a system, but even if they did those participating in such a system would always look for ways to un-level the playing field and recreate the hierarchy we seek in society as primates.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Working fewer hours per week can actually be really hard. Fewer hours means more workers, but adding more workers means additional communication, planning, and other costs.

This is especially true for "knowledge work" since you can't brain-dump everything you know onto a co-worker. If your job involves a service component as well (e.g. like lawyering), that probably means you have also to be on call in addition to the hours you spend working. And then there are tasks where workers need to put in 40 hour work weeks to get anything done because of how long to get up to speed (e.g. I'd personally have a very hard time getting any meaningful coding, writing, or art done if I was limited to working only two hours a day or one day a week on that project).

I think the solution here is probably not so much a focus on part-time work but on seasonal work or jobs where sabbaticals are a thing.

</comment><comment><USER12> This is something I'd definitely be interested in trying. Like stated elsewhere here, the Netherlands has a culture similar to this.

I've had 3 internships so far, and the most recent one has had a lot of overtime. Maybe I'll try to start my first full-time job in the Netherlands.</comment>


Below Absolute Zero? Not really, no. - <AUTHOR> http://lauriewinkless.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/below-absolute-zero/ <comment><USER2> I like the Kindle metaphor! Perhaps it needs more technical details, but makes it more technical.

The important point is that if you have a black and white 600x800 screen, how many different screenshots can you make with 0 black pixels? With 1? 2? ... 239999? 240000? 240001? ... 479998? 479999? 480000?

Another important detail is that this definition of temperature is not a crazy idea from this particular research group. It's a common definition in advanced thermodynamics.</comment>


Intel CEO sold millions in stock after company was informed of vulnerability - <AUTHOR> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/intel-ceo-sold-millions-in-stock-after-company-was-informed-of-vulnerability-before-disclosure-2018-01-03 <comment><AUTHOR> Previously discussed here (just found the link):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16067322](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16067322)</comment>


Our poor sleeping habits could be filling our brains with neurotoxins - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/424120/our-poor-sleeping-habits-could-be-filling-our-brains-with-neurotoxins/ <comment><USER2> I never feel better than after a 10h sleep. Too bad they are rare:/</comment>


How the Tudors Invented Breakfast - <AUTHOR> http://www.historyextra.com/feature/tudors/how-tudors-invented-breakfast <comment><USER2> _Few of us in the 21st century would dream of embarking upon our days on an empty stomach_

In my circles, I'd estimate only a narrow minority have a breakfast beyond caffeine. I certainly don't eat before noon.

PS: more evidence, after I searched to investigate:

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7593760/Two-thirds- of...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7593760/Two-thirds-of-Britons- do-not-eat-breakfast.html)

 _Men skip their morning meal the most, with 74 per cent admitting lunch is their first meal of the day._

<comment><USER3> "The most significant difference was the traveller's breakfast. Often we find this consisted of nothing but ale or wine."

It appears ale and wine has been replaced by coffee. That's usually all I consistently have before lunch.

<comment><USER4> I particularly like an excerpt from Benjamin Franklin's autobiography of when he worked at a printing press. Apparently it was quite common to drink on the job for "strength" if you were a manual labourer.

"My companion at the press drank every day a pint before breakfast, a pint at breakfast with his bread and cheese, a pint between breakfast and dinner, a pint at dinner, a pint in the afternoon about six o'clock, and another when he had done his day's work. I thought it a detestable custom; but it was necessary, he suppos'd, to drink strong beer, that he might be strong to labor. I endeavored to convince him that the bodily strength afforded by beer could only be in proportion to the grain or flour of the barley dissolved in the water of which it was made; that there was more flour in a pennyworth of bread; and therefore, if he would eat that with a pint of water, it would give him more strength than a quart of beer. He drank on, however, and had four or five shillings to pay out of his wages every Saturday night for that muddling liquor; an expense I was free from. And thus these poor devils keep themselves always under."

[1] [http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/benjamin- franklin/chap...](http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/benjamin- franklin/chapter-3.php)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> \---- excerpt ----

Aragorn: Gentlemen, we do not stop 'til nightfall.

Pippin: What about breakfast?

Aragorn: You've already had it.

Pippin: We've had one, yes. What about second breakfast?

[Aragorn turns and walks off in disgust]

Merry: I don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip.

Pippin: What about elevenses? Luncheon? Afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper? He knows about them, doesn't he?

Merry: I wouldn't count on it.

\</comment><comment></comment><comment>----

:-)

</comment><comment><USER6> Then how does breakfast appear in The Odyssey?

<comment><USER7> It's not a good idea to judge articles by their headlines. Typically, the headlines aren't written by the author.

The article itself says that breakfast became a more regular occurrence due to longer, fixed workdays. Some people ate breakfast before then, it just wasn't a set routine the way lunch and dinner were.

<comment><USER8> In fact, says my quick text search, the string "Tudor" does not show up once after the headline.

<comment><USER9> But the thrust of the article is that in England eating breakfast became the norm during the 16th century, a period almost coterminous with the rule of the Tudors (Henry VII took the throne in 1485; Elizabeth I died in 1603).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> >[16th century] The main meal, dinner, was held at about 10.30 or 11 in the morning, and supper about five hours later.

Hmm, I wonder what was the typical time for dinner in the 19th century? I.e. when Mr Bingley was invited "to dine" with Bennets, at what time he was expected to show up?

</comment><comment><USER11> My first thought was "does this have anything to do with the invention of street lights and the time people could now get to working?"

</comment><comment><USER12> Yes, but Tolkien invented Second Breakfast. No comparison.

<comment><USER13> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_breakfast](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_breakfast)

 _" It is traditional in Bavaria, in Poland, and in Hungary. In Bavaria or Poland, special dishes are made exclusively to be eaten during second breakfast."_

<comment><USER14> IIRC, Czechs (and Slovaks too, perhaps) have something called "svacina" which fits this definition of a second breakfast.

There are other places in the world too that have this custom: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin)

<comment><USER15> In Portugal it's called "bucha".</comment></comment></comment></comment>


NY Startup Hub: Best and Worst Aspects? - <AUTHOR>

I'm an MBA (but don't judge me!) student in NY looking to break into the startup world.<p>I have a quick question for NY startup professionals: what do you think New York (as a community/startup hub) does well, and what do you think it does poorly in comparison to other cities (namely Silicon Valley, and also Boston)? <comment><USER2> A. It depends on the type of startup interests you. For example if you want to be in the hub of the tech industry it's hard to argue that silicon valley isn't the place to be. However if you're interested in culture, media or fashion it's hard to beat NYC.

I'd also add that a great deal of it comes down to personality -- and don't be afraid to add that to your calculation...

<comment><AUTHOR> Good points. I've gone through the 500 or so startups (there's probably more than that) and there are definitely a lot of fashion/media focused ones, where NY is probably the best city to be to do those kinds of startups.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Best: NY has a great network of investors as well as good cross pollination of people.

Worst: It's really hard to attract the best talent (nerds). Nerds look at the prospect of living in NY as a punishment.

My biased opinion (based on my limited network): Silicon Valley is way ahead, Boston, Austin, Seattle, New York, Boulder, Orlando,

Hope that helps

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks -- this is very helpful. I definitely think you attract a different breed of people than the other cities you mention. I think working at a startup is starting (or is) to become very chic in NY -- we'll see what affects that has going forward.</comment></comment>


Customizable date (and time) picker. No jQuery - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/bevacqua/rome?latest

<comment><USER2> If you care less about browser support HTML has time and date now</comment>


PowerPC G3 and 7400 G4 appear resistant to Spectre - <AUTHOR> http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2018/01/actual-field-testing-of-spectre-on.html <comment><USER2> Apparently so does the ZX80, being almost equally obsolete.</comment>


World's Largest Solar Plant Sets Itself Ablaze Due to Misaligned Mirrors - <AUTHOR> http://hothardware.com/news/worlds-largest-solar-plant-sets-itself-ablaze-due-to-misaligned-mirrors <comment><USER2> I am fascinated by heliostats.

Heliostats (sun tracker) can provide natural light indoors. This is useful especially during dark winter months. A more advanced application is to capture the natural light using fibre optics and use natural light in place of artificial lights.

The principal advantage here is that the colour spectrum of light changes during the course of a day. This has a significant affect on your sleeping patterns and mental health. It is known for example that in early summer months there is a rise in suicides. This is attributed to people feeling like they have lots of energy from nowhere, but they still are stuck in the winter/spring (natural) depressed state. The rise in energy coupled with low mood produce spur of the moment suicidal behavior.

Logically one can use this information to ameliorate mental health problems of anxiety, depression. I foresee a household system that anticipates your mental state accurately, perhaps using a combination of facial recognition coupled with scent analysis, and then deploys some subtle aromatherapy and adapts the natural lighting to something more conducive. This would also be useful for enhancing productivity more generally.

Did I mention that natural light is free of charge? :-)

There are actually very few heliostat natural light solutions out there, and certainly not for the average person. On the other hand it makes for a great DIY project.

Heliostats can also delete your heating bill with simple methods (they make it sound complicated in commercial literature, but it is just pointing a fucking mirror at a tank of water painted black.)

There are lots of homemade heliostat systems out there but to my knowledge, no books on how to do it. In my view every home should have a natural light solution, it seems fair somehow. Besides how cool is it that you can point natural light 'up' or in any direction using fibre cable? That will never get old for me and I'm not even an optics geek.

<comment><USER2> If anybody wants to see a cool artificial light that mimics natural light well take a look at coelux:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4TJ4-kkDw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4TJ4-kkDw)

It is imperfect (costs too much) but it'll give a good idea of why I think heliostat/optic cable/natural light is something more people need in their lives.</comment></comment>


Amazon's next Kindle could have a hybrid grayscale/color screen - <AUTHOR> http://the-digital-reader.com/2014/08/05/amazons-new-screen-tech-patents-reveal-clues-future-kindle-plans/

<comment><AUTHOR> A newly filed patent has revealed that Liquavista, the screen tech company that Amazon bought last year, has a design for a display that layers a color screen on top of a grayscale screen, giving users the option of having color or a high res grayscale screen.</comment>


ER bills: A baby was treated with a nap. His parents got an $18,000 bill - <AUTHOR> https://www.vox.com/2018/6/28/17506232/emergency-room-bill-fees-health-insurance-baby <comment><USER2> America is a wonderful place to be rich or wealthy. Medical concerns are a top reason for personal bankruptcy.

</comment><comment><USER3> This type of billing is probably not helping the US birthrate, which I believe is now below replacement.

</comment><comment><USER4> As long as consumers follow along, this will not change. We've allowed the US healthcare system to become a toxic cesspool of greedy insurance companies with laughable and corrupt government oversight. IMHO, The only way this changes is if everyone stops paying.

<comment><USER5> > _IMHO, The only way this changes is if everyone stops paying._

Great! I'll start the next time I need a medical procedure. Of course, this protest will get only more and more effective - once my bill is sent to collections, and I'm forced into bankruptcy and become homeless, I'll amass all sorts of medical maladies!

<comment><USER6> The reply next yours says the same thing without the toxic feel that makes the internet a slightly worse place for everyone. Go out in that big world and find something that makes you a happier person.

<comment><USER5> You're right. Today's been a rough day, and I keep trying to tell myself that if I don't have anything constructive to say, I shouldn't say anything at all - but I can't seem to listen :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wow. Now imagine you were hiking in the mountains, you break your ankle, and need the help of search and rescue to get out of there. After you get a $15,000 bill for a Trauma fee from the hospital you get a $10,000 bill for a search and rescue fee from the state. Yes it's the Ticket Master business model.

If anyone hears that I'm missing in a forest somewhere, please do me a favor and don't call anybody.

<comment><USER5> > _If anyone hears that I 'm missing in a forest somewhere, please do me a > favor and don't call anybody._

Very well, in accordance with your wishes, we'll let you die in the wilderness in order to save you $10,000.

<comment><USER6> Fair jab. My point was that the Search & Rescue "pay to play" model seems unreasonable. It was originally intended to be used in cases of negligence/recklessness but is apparently being used in plain vanilla S&R activities somewhat randomly based on the whims of local authorities.

The case I'm talking about was similar to this article. S&R possible overreacted and charged a guy $9000+. There was no danger, just a miscommunication. That seems similar to this article where a guy got a minor scrape on his head from tipping over his motorcycle and an entire Trauma team was readied unbeknownst to him. Yet he still got the bill.</comment></comment></comment>


Welcome to Space - <AUTHOR> https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2019/12/05/welcome-to-space/ <comment><USER2> Interesting, but it smells a lot of enterprise bloat. All-in-one solutions, in the long run, tend to feel inferior to dynamic setups.

It's true that that particular market is long-suffering. If this thing can keep admin overhead to a minimum and actually make teams communicate more, it's welcome.

</comment><comment><USER3> This looks interesting, I'm curious how the "free" tier interacts with the "self hosted" part - storage limits and compute limits don't make a lot of sense if you're providing those resources yourself.

</comment><comment><USER4> an earlier post: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21714157](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21714157)</comment>


Reducing the Cost of IP Law - <AUTHOR> http://mises.org/daily/4018 <comment><USER2> That's actually a refreshingly well-thought-out treatment of the subject from someone who has (and says as much up front) a massive ideological bias against the whole concept. I wish more people with "fringe" political opinions were that sensible, maybe then we'd actually stand a chance of seeing politics be about something other than petty Team A vs. Team B squabbling.

</comment><comment><USER3> Most startups need to have barriers to entry if they are to have the capacity to sustain themselves beyond the initial phase of their existence.

This is one of the first questions that potential investors will ask any founding team: assuming that you initially succeed, what is to prevent big players from attacking you. More often than not, the answer lies in the IP protections that protect such a startup's development efforts, whether this takes the form of patents, copyrights, or whatever. It is true that such startups can also be prejudiced by threats of infringement from large companies and in this sense IP rights can potentially work against them. In my experience, though, for every oddball situation (easily less than 1%) in which IP rights threaten a startup, there are many, many situations where IP rights work in their favor and in which they would clearly be prejudiced if such rights were scaled back or eliminated.

Thus, from my subjective perspective, I can attest that IP rights _are_ a spur to innovation because many of the startups I have represented would not have been able either to start or to fund themselves without a business model that ultimately depended on proprietary advantages afforded by IP rights. Perhaps they are wrong about what does or does not promote the best interests of their companies but, in the real world, this is overwhelmingly how most founders see IP in relation to their companies.

Can't speak to the broader societal or cost/benefit issues raised by the author (and would agree that patents in particular are in need of reform). By the way, as I do not do patent filings, this is not a livelihood issue for me - just my viewpoint as a lawyer representing startups for over a quarter century in Silicon Valley.

<comment><USER4> _(and would agree that patents in particular are in need of reform)_

That's not the correct characterization of his position.

His position is that of abolishing patents and copyrights in accordance to libertarian ethic theory. However, from a practical perspective, he notes that abolishing IP laws is not possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> One thing that struck me reading this article is that innovation seems to have outgrown the one size fits all nature of the patent system. Given the huge difference in capital expenditures required between engineering software and pharmaceuticals, why are they treated the same?

<comment><USER4> You may want to take a look at _Against Intellectual Monopoly_.

[http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfi...](http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm)

The thesis is that all patent and copyright, contrary to popular belief, does not actually increase innovation.

I have mentioned this book on several occasions but it seem that hackers continue to remain ignorant of books like this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hard to take someone who calls himself an "Austro-Anarchist Libertarian Legal Theor[ist]" and went to a law school I've never heard of (note: I am a law student now) seriously. From a legal perspective, this guy's political biases show through. Editor of the liberatarian papers? Check. In the end, I thought it was a long article that is 1) fanciful and 2) a rehash of prior ideas.

<comment><USER5> Why exactly does Kinsella's political philosophy matter? He is upfront about what he believes, so I don't think he's trying to deceive anyone. I also don't think that his political orientation means anything "from a legal perspective." Meaningful patent reform would almost certainly take place in Congress, not in the courts.

Also, although you may still believe that his conclusions are fanciful, I think Kinsella is actually trying to be practical. Instead of arguing that IP shouldn't exist at all, he is advocating specific reforms that he believes would reduce the net costs of our patent system to society. I don't find his suggestions fanciful, because the US has already moved in the direction Kinsella advocates for at least patent publications.

<comment><USER6> I'm sorry I got to this so late. I realize noone will probably read this, and I only stumbled upon because I have had a few beers and was browsing old posts. In any case, I have a couple qualms. First, political philosophy does matter. Patents is about maximizing "progress" in the useful arts and sciences. Thus, depending on what you believe politically, you will have different views about how to accomplish this.

Further, in reality, most patent reform does take place in courts. For instance, the Supreme Court mandated the processing of patent appeals in the federal circuit. Why? Because this way we could have a fairly uniform set of decisions from a fairly specialized court about what the law means. Much like corporate law in DE, one could consider a "common law" approach, whereby the courts would attempt to find a set of laws that would best promote the goals described above. In Federal Circuit jurisprudence, there have been many attempts to reconcile and improve the patent system but they have been reluctant to make broad changes like those described in the article. The reasoning goes that the courts are afraid (I think with good reason) about what might happen. I believe this is one contributing reason. Another might be that the court is fairly conservative (not a lot of free market easterbrook- posner type guys).

I do agree however that large scale reform would necessitate legislative action, and perhaps some of the authors points would require this. Nonetheless, I think there is about 0% chance that many of these changes happen via the legislature. Examining the past, much, if not all the change, after the patent act (which was passed in I think 1952), has been judicially mandated and described. Legislators dont want to touch this for the same reason. The system works ok (not great), other countries copy us, and if we change it, who knows whats going to happen. Maybe this is a little bit of a rant, and I apologize for being terse in my initial description. I do believe though, that the author does himself a disservice by taking describing himself in the way he does, because if he was proposing a unique and passable patent reform, it would be hard for 1) politicians, 2) academics, and 3) legal professionals to take him seriously.

Thanks for reading, assuming anyone makes it this far!</comment></comment></comment>


Gore: Yet another Go REPL that works nicely - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/motemen/gore <comment><USER2> From playing with it a little, 1) I dig it and not unlikely I'll use it in some situations I'd otherwise hit the Playground for, 2) here, of course, are some ideas:

\- Running bradfitz/goimports (if it's in the $PATH) on the session file before executing it and picking up any imports it adds. So f, err := os.Open("foo") would work without me explicitly :import'ing os.

\- Enabling gocode autocompletion after you type :doc, and possibly stripping a trailing '('. This'd be a cheat to let you type :doc fmt.P[tab] enter.

\- Hiding __gore_p from the written/printed output. Possible there's a technical reason that's less of a good idea than it sounds like.

\- :read to load a session, and/or similar shortcuts to save you from retyping the same inputs to set up the environment -- e.g., taking a session filename on the command line and defaulting to ~/.gorerc if it exists.

\- :play -- submit some version of the session file to the Go Playground and print the URL (for sharing, say). The Playground's "About" link says automatic use is OK if you're cool about it (and has a more complete definition of "if you're cool about it").

Thanks for the work and don't let the spew of ideas distract from that I like what you've got and find it useful.

<comment><USER2> Ahh, submitter != author so my use of "you" is off. If nothing else, maybe I'll get enough use out of this to submit a PR for one of those things. :)

<comment><USER3> I am the author of gore and I appreciate your suggestions. Of course Pull Requests are welcomed :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I feel there should be a different word available for a REPL that you can call out into from your own code, where the REPL has access to the lexical scope at the point of the call. Like binding.pry in Ruby, or 'debugger' in Javascript.

A REPL that doesn't let me break out with current lexical scope only gives me 10% of what I use a REPL for. Without that feature, they're of limited use; more suited to playing with a language than productively writing and debugging code.

<comment><USER5> There is a name for a "REPL" that does what you're describing: a debugger.

REPL stands for "read eval print loop", which is what precisely this is and not what you're describing at all.

<comment><USER4> No, a debugger is something that supports, at a minimum, breakpoints, stepping and memory inspection.

Many debuggers - if not most - do not support arbitrary constructs in the language being debugged. They don't normally support creating new variables (by which I explicitly do not mean a name for an expression). And they very rarely support writing new or overwriting existing functions.

When I use pry, it's normally as a REPL with scope bindings, not as a debugger. That is, I don't use it for breakpoints or stepping. I use it to write code in the context of where the code is going to live. When I need to modify a Ruby method, I stick a binding.pry in it, then write the new code iteratively in the console in the context of a test or seed data, and copy and paste finished code into an editor when I'm happy with the results.

A REPL that only supports creating new definitions is simply not very useful to me. It doesn't support what I use REPLs for. They're mostly just toys - IMO.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I really want a Go REPL that somehow manages to compile the new statements and execute them in an ongoing context (like Python's REPL).

Is that technically possible? Can you compile Go in Go and dynamically load it? With a shell-out to the compiler?

<comment><USER7> That's (partly) provided by running this REPL: [https://github.com/rocky/go- fish](https://github.com/rocky/go-fish) with this eval for Go code: [https://github.com/0xfaded/eval](https://github.com/0xfaded/eval)

<comment><USER8> Does this provide a "different" type of REPL than gore?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> [OT] - Any idea which is the tool used to create the gif screencast with command overlay ?

<comment><USER3> It was taken by LICEcap [1] with cho45/KeyCast [2].

[1] [http://www.cockos.com/licecap/](http://www.cockos.com/licecap/) [2] [https://github.com/cho45/KeyCast](https://github.com/cho45/KeyCast)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> It looks really nicely done. I'm not sure I'll use it over the local playground that's bundled in my editor though.</comment>


Show HN: Maputnik – a visual style editor for maps - <AUTHOR> http://maputnik.com/ <comment><USER2> well done. I use mapbox studio daily and see this is a very lightweight version of their studio. well done. easy to start styling and export json.

what is your hope for this app? will you sell subscriptions to host data?

<comment><AUTHOR> I really want to keep it a standalone style editor. The advantage is exactly that it is not bound to any external service.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This looks very similar to [https://www.mapbox.com/mapbox- studio/](https://www.mapbox.com/mapbox-studio/)</comment>


Ask HN: Denied from last round, finished beta/landed trial. Worth reapplying? - <AUTHOR> My cofounder and I applied to the YC winter session after having had worked on our product for over a year and were denied. We have since finished what we call our beta, and also landed a private testing trial with some mock trial attorneys and their judges at a good local law school (it's a law tech idea, with some real attorneys and judges helping).  I know there have been several questions on here asking YC alumni for feedback, but we are unsure if it's worth applying for an incubator now that this has happened and we are going back and forth on it. Has anyone experienced anything similar and regretted applying/attending? If we believe we have a product that will be market ready and scalable without YC, should we hold on to our equity? <comment><USER2> I was denied last time, too, but I'm going for it again this round.

The equity piece is so small, I think the contacts we can make there and the ability to rub shoulders with people who have startup experience (and multiple unicorns under their belts) is well worth it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good luck!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If I were in your space, I'd (seriously) consider finding a way to pick Justin Kan's brain.

Just a thought. GL

</comment><comment><USER4> Definitely worth applying. The network is huge boost to your startup</comment>


Microsoft recruiting through its SkyDrive API headers - <AUTHOR> http://www.multicolor.net/post/35565814689/microsoft-new-recruiting-techniques-seen-in-the

<comment><USER2> Love MS lately :)</comment>


Surprise Top sites still fail at encouraging non-terrible passwords - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/19/surprise-top-sites-still-fail-at-encouraging-non-terrible-passwords/ <comment><USER2> Yikes. That Amazon is so bad at this is kind of shocking.</comment>


Happy July 4th: The US May Have Its Ills but It Is Better Than Most Other Places - <AUTHOR> https://capitalandgrowth.org/answers/Article/3294333/Happy-July-4th-America-May-Have-Its-Ills-But-It-Is-Better-than-Most-Other-Places <comment><USER2> There are about 200 countries in the world to be better than most means being about 99th in the world. I doubt an American would like that bad.

Using OECD figures USA does not even make the top 15.</comment>


How to set up email in 2019 - <AUTHOR> https://www.attejuvonen.fi/how-to-set-up-email/ <comment><USER2> I use Exim for the server, and Heirloom-mailx for the client (both running on the same computer). It says don't send email from your own server, and, it is what I do. I use the ISP's SMTP server for sending, but use my own server for receiving. That works OK for me.</comment>


Ask HN: What tools do you use for data munging and merging? - <AUTHOR> Hello,
what tools do you use or know about, e.g. something like Talend DataPreparation (https://www.talend.com/products/data-preparation) ?
I found OpenRefine (http://openrefine.org), which is browser based like Talend DataPreparation.
It would be nice to have a "true" desktop application :) <comment><USER2> Looks like you're looking for ETL solutions. It's funny reading some of the replies here, you can tell who's coming from a more BI background compared to a software engineering background.

Anyways, I think Alteryx does this job really well. It's great for ETL that the average Joe can pick up and learn very quickly. Sure, the UX could be improved, but it's miles better than AWS' Data Pipeline and other tools. It is a bit costly like another user mentioned, but well worth it IMO. Tableau has introduced some new products the past year or two to compete in this space as well, so if you use Tableau for reporting, look into their new offerings. Dell introduced an ETL tool a few years ago called Boomi. It had some promise a few years ago and might be something to consider. I have no idea what it costs though. Another option is SSIS if the data is eventually going to live in SQL Server or some Microsoft database.

Ultimately, I would consider options based on your target database/environment.

<comment><USER3> I totally agree with your first sentence. As a former enterprise data warehouse architect, it's interesting seeing some of the responses. Surprised I'm not seeing more Informatica and SSIS. I'll also say SSIS is a good solution for nearly any data storage platform and is included in a SQL Server license so might be a good, cheap enterprise solution if you already have SQL Server.

<comment><USER4> From my experience SSIS suffers mightily from the Write-Once Read Only problem as well as huge manual click-fests when package metadata changes. That and a lack of development from MSFT with obvious direction towards ADF means SSIS is not really great for modern data architecture.

If you're a MSFT shop then sure and if you're willing to drop the box-line GUI and move to .NET assembly-based packages even more so, but I've spent enough of my life keeping SSIS running and not going back.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A project I'm using, which I'm also one of the authors of, is OctoSQL[1].

It allows you to transform and join data from different data sources (including databases like mysql, postgres, redis, and CSV or JSON files, more to come) using a familiar interface - plain SQL.

Other than that, I like Exploratory[2].

And for nested JSON data I use another project of mine, jql[3] - an easier to use (in my opinion) lispy alternative to jq. (originally inspired by a hackernews comment actually)

[1]:[https://github.com/cube2222/octosql](https://github.com/cube2222/octosql)

[2]:[https://exploratory.io](https://exploratory.io)

[3]:[https://github.com/cube2222/jql](https://github.com/cube2222/jql)

<comment><USER6> Interesting project and I like the name. It seems that the underlying relationship in each data source has to be relational though (even for JSON files) - is that a fundamental limitation of using SQL as the glue language, or are there plans to integrate hierarchical models of data in some form as well?

<comment><USER5> If you mean hierarchical data querying (like nested json, or json in sql rows), then that's very high on our radar.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I try to avoid GUI-based tools as they generally don't lend themselves well to version control, code reuse, etc. There are several orchestration tools that allow you to create arbitrarily complex ETL pipelines using SQL, Python, Spark, etc. Here are links to a few:

[http://airflow.apache.org/](http://airflow.apache.org/)

[https://www.prefect.io/](https://www.prefect.io/)

[https://dagster.readthedocs.io/en/0.6.7/](https://dagster.readthedocs.io/en/0.6.7/)

[https://www.getdbt.com/](https://www.getdbt.com/)

<comment><USER8> Dbt looks awesome. Too bad no oracle support.

<comment><USER9> Hi there - I run product for dbt - happy to chat more about Oracle support if you're interested. There are a handful of community-supported dbt plugins out in the wild. Oracle could very well be one of the next ones. Check some of these out to see what's involved in building a database plugin:

\- [https://github.com/fishtown-analytics/dbt- spark](https://github.com/fishtown-analytics/dbt-spark)

\- [https://github.com/fishtown-analytics/dbt- presto](https://github.com/fishtown-analytics/dbt-presto)

\- [https://github.com/mikaelene/dbt- sqlserver](https://github.com/mikaelene/dbt-sqlserver)

\- [https://github.com/jacobm001/dbt-mssql](https://github.com/jacobm001/dbt- mssql)

<comment><USER8> cool. would be an interested user, but building a plug in ... beyond my team's ability.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> QuestDB ([https://www.questdb.io](https://www.questdb.io)) might help. Import your file(s) by drag and drop directly into the web console. Once data is loaded, you can run SQL queries in the console to order, format, concatenate, join (including time-based joins), etc. Once finished, you can export your formatted results back to CSV. Also, it's pretty quick!

</comment><comment><USER11> Visidata ([http://visidata.org/](http://visidata.org/)) is my tool of choice these days.

<comment><USER12> yup lots of love for visidata, a nice quick way to eyeball data and then munge: [https://visidata.org/docs/join/](https://visidata.org/docs/join/) before proper carpentry with pandas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I really like R / Tidyverse, but that requires that you have more memory than your datasize (especially if you are using narrow and long dataframes, such as recommended by tidyverse) and it also requires you to code, instead of using a UI

<comment><USER14> Is there really no way of processing dataframes by chunks in the R ecosystem? I'm firmly in the Python camp but I wonder how much I'm missing out on in the R world.

<comment><USER15> There are many ways to process larger than RAM objects in R.

The dbplyr package makes it possible to use a local db table as if they are in-memory data frames ([https://dbplyr.tidyverse.org/](https://dbplyr.tidyverse.org/)).

[https://diskframe.com/](https://diskframe.com/) is also a pretty great solution that processes data by chunks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> We use Talend. It does have a gigantic Java-based Windows desktop application. It's pretty powerful and I don't hate it. We looked at MuleSoft as well but it's not ready for Enterprise prime-time like we need it to be.

The data preparation Wikipedia page mentions Talend by name along with Paxata, Trifacta, Alteryx, and Ataccama.

<comment><USER17> Alteryx is very good, especially if you want to hand off maintenance and operation of data processing flows to non coders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> The python ecosystem is really good here.

I do a lot of exploratory coding in ipython, though the threshold for "switch to a real editor and run git init and poetry new" is pretty low.

Want to munge CSV? stdlib, or pandas([https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas- docs/stable/](https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/))

Want to munge JSON? stdlib.

Want to munge a database? pandas, stdlib, anything that speaks sqlalchemy

Want to validate your json/sql/CSV/whatever and have it come in as a bunch of structured classes not std types? jsonschema [https://pypi.org/project/jsonschema/](https://pypi.org/project/jsonschema/), attrs+marshmallow, attrs+cattrs. [http://www.attrs.org/en/stable/](http://www.attrs.org/en/stable/), [https://desert.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://desert.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) [https://marshmallow.readthedocs.io/en/stable/](https://marshmallow.readthedocs.io/en/stable/) [https://github.com/Tinche/cattrs](https://github.com/Tinche/cattrs)

Want to transform csv into sqlite? [https://github.com/simonw/csvs-to- sqlite](https://github.com/simonw/csvs-to-sqlite)

Want to serve sqlite as a REST api? [https://datasette.readthedocs.io/en/stable/](https://datasette.readthedocs.io/en/stable/)

Want to stuff simple things into a database really fast? [https://dataset.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://dataset.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)

Want to flip numerical data around? Numpy.[https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/](https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/)

Want to model it? Scipy [https://www.scipy.org/docs.html](https://www.scipy.org/docs.html), pandas

Want to plot it? seaborn [https://seaborn.pydata.org/](https://seaborn.pydata.org/), plotnine [https://plotnine.readthedocs.io/en/stable/](https://plotnine.readthedocs.io/en/stable/)

Want to futz around with structured data in a sensible way? glom [https://glom.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://glom.readthedocs.io/en/latest/), python-lenses [https://github.com/ingolemo/python- lenses](https://github.com/ingolemo/python-lenses).

Want to spit out tabular data? Tabulate [https://github.com/astanin/python- tabulate](https://github.com/astanin/python-tabulate)

Want to figure out where not to eat in chicago? built-ins: counter, defaultdict, comprehensions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDLAutA88s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyDLAutA88s)

There's a LOT you can do pretty fast, and I can more or less hammer out a basic ETL cli script in my sleep at this point.

<comment><USER19> I think it is not that rich when dealing with binary data.

<comment><USER20> Sure it is. [https://construct.readthedocs.io/](https://construct.readthedocs.io/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm working in this area, been doing a lot of "exploratory coding" that has evolved into something I find quite powerful, a modern spreadsheet application with features that I think makes it suited to the current time. (Summary at [https://lightsheets.app](https://lightsheets.app))

At the moment I'm working on improving performance. I can already load 1 million rows into it without too much trouble, and the next step is to load some Kaggle-size CSV's (e.g. 5.6 GB) and then be able to run data cleaning or other transforms on it without it choking.

If anyone's interested in this kind of stuff feel free to drop me an email (in my profile)!

</comment><comment><USER22> Usually spark, but it depends on what the source data is. Whether it needs more preprocessing, etc. for json, there are some good command- line tools available for stripping, flattening, if u need to do that. Spark can usually handle most of the data sources.

</comment><comment><USER23> Sublime text isn't as featured as Talend tools but it does what it does well and quickly and stays out of my way. Great for loading up a text file, scrolling around, and doing quick find/replaces.

Shell scripts using mostly sed and awk go a very, very long way when I want something repeatable or I'm dealing with a lot of data. And, when that starts getting heavy or long and I need more structure, python.

GUIs just get in the way in this space. By necessity, they need to be opinionated because there's only so much screen to get around in. They also tend to create artifacts that aren't quick to understand later and are locked into some particular product or way of doing things.

</comment><comment><USER24> SQL, Python tools such as Pandas, Rapids.ai (if you have a recent Nvidia GPU) and Talend are all good choices. If it is a small amount of data you can just use Python or Bash to pretty quickly accomplish what you need.

</comment><comment><USER25> I use SQLite myself, although I would like that those who provide the data should make the data available in a format such as CSV, or TSV, or a SQLite database, or to have some sort of protocol which a SQLite virtual table module can be made to access any data using such a protocol, so that it is possible to do so without having to deal with complicated stuff in a web browser or whatever else it may be, sometimes which is not even compatible with my computer. SQLite is common on all computers, I think, and CSV or TSV will be simple enough to work with many programs, so it should do.

</comment><comment><USER26> I have recently released a Windows/Mac tool for data munging: [https://www.easydatatransform.com](https://www.easydatatransform.com)

It is a GUI based solution with an emphasis on ease of use, aimed at people who aren't coders or data science professionals. For example a marketer who has several different Excel and CSV files they need to merge, clean, filter and restructure to create a report. Any feedback would be very welcome.

</comment><comment><USER27> Shell scripts and simple Java applications. Not interested in navigating/learning a GUI which may or may not work for me.

Downloading everything locally isn't desirable for me.

</comment><comment><USER28> [https://www.getdbt.com/](https://www.getdbt.com/) is excellent if your users are SQL-friendly.

</comment><comment><USER29> At this point, why wouldn't you use Excel?

What use cases do you have that go beyond Excel?

I say this as someone that develops pipelines in notebooks and workflow frameworks.

Snowflake.

</comment><comment><USER30> It's been a few years but I use to use Altova suite specifically MapForce ([https://www.altova.com/mapforce](https://www.altova.com/mapforce)) DiffDog, etc. Like I said it's been a few years but it was super powerful, this was back in my XML days when building stylesheets was a big part of my job.

</comment><comment><USER31> Octosql

[https://github.com/cube2222/octosql](https://github.com/cube2222/octosql)

<comment><USER32> The installation from the docs on the readme is broken!

<comment><USER5> Just to put it here on HN, the installation command is corrected now. You need to have go modules turned on to use go get for installation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Structured data rarely lends itself to a GUI paradigm because its structure is arbitrary. I would argue that it would only fit with a GUI if it represents something specific that said GUI explicitly models (e.g., a very specific lump of JSON could be interpreted as a tree, etc.). As such, command line and scripting tools are vastly superior.

<comment><USER34> The model works absolutely fine with structured data. In these kinds of applications, you usually connect different nodes on a canvas, each node representing a data source, join, transformation etc. and each connection represents the flow of data.

<comment><USER33> But those nodes are going to be either relatively limited in their ability, highly specific, or just expose scripting tools; the linkage between nodes is trivial. Why waste time connecting all that up visually, when a good shell will do the job?

<comment><USER34> I agree with this and I also prefer a programming language over a GUI. My point was that there isn't a limitation of GUI ETL tools that's specific to structured data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> There is an incredible ecosystem of tools used for "data preparation" that it almost always necessitates defining what the usecase and workflow would be first. There are tools from UI-based to command-line-based.

Tools: Avora, FiveTran, Informatica, Excel, Alteryx, Datameer, Tableau Prep, etc. ... list could go on and on.

</comment><comment><USER36> If I need to combine a bunch of files in a 'union' or 'concat' type fashion I will usually use UNIX tools or perl. Ditto for dropping or re-arranging columns or filtering out entries. The syntax is usually very terse and for simple tasks isn't too bad in terms of readability/

</comment><comment><USER37> A thread like this would not be complete witho7na shoutout to Monarch.

It's exciting to see new tooling coming out, depending on your need, watching a video or two about how Monarch runs could be helpful in assessing what tool is for you.

</comment><comment><USER38> data.table has both an R and Python version. The python is version getting pretty mature now.

Munging and Merging pretty large datasets using data.table is very efficient and intuitive after a bit of practice.

The vignette in R is very good. Datacamp has a course (I think little dated). Also a search for videos by Matt Dowle and Arun Srinivasan can give a very good quick idea of data.table's capabilities. I think both are involved in some capacity with h2o.ai which seems to be pretty good and on my to-do list.

Desktop coding using Rstudio is a wonderful experience with the R version.

</comment><comment><USER39> Technical and free: Airflow

Technical and has a fee: dbt, prefect (while prefect is free, prefect cloud is not)

Non-technical and has a fee: datacoral.ai, ascend.io

You can solve your problem with any of these solutions, and many others not mentioned here.

</comment><comment><USER40> I used KNIME at a previous job. Open source desktop application is free. Server is paid. Competes with other workflow based GUI tools such as Alteryx. I liked it a lot.

</comment><comment><USER8> Been trying [https://www.matillion.com](https://www.matillion.com). It's nice.

</comment><comment><USER41> cat | cut -d | sort | uniq or when in doubt, just write a few lines of perl.

</comment><comment><USER42> R+dplyr and trifacta (GCP Dataprep)

</comment><comment><USER43> alteryx

<comment><USER43> to expand on my reply, I use to be a full on python / pandas advocate, but in comparison to alteryx it's slow and the best is that you can get business users to understand alteryx enough to provide value on the data cleansing / merging part

<comment><USER44> Would you say that the main reason to use a software instead of code is to onboard non-coding business partners?

edit: After looking at the website, I can't help but feel that they are surfing on the Asteryx clothing brand to overprice their products...

<comment><USER45> _> Would you say that the main reason to use a software instead of code is to onboard non-coding business partners_

That is usually a key selling point of GUI based ETL solutions. Relatively non-technical users, that know little of coding but do understand their data and what they want out of it, can put together basic (and sometimes not so basic) data flows and debug them.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Desire to be the dumbest guy in the room? - <AUTHOR> Hello HN,
I posted another thread a few days ago related to my possible job move from a startup where I had a very successful career to a Google-like company (it's one of the big 4), mostly because I'm bored in my current situation (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14908269).
I realize the biggest cause of my boredom is that as a software engineer I'm not that capable and I am not improving in my current situation (I am comparing myself against some of my peers who work in other tech companies in SV). My "vast" success in the startup has been mostly due to most of our engineering team being outsourced towards cheap and junior talent in foreign countries (no prejudice! I immigrated in SV myself from another country, I'm just stating what my experience has been so far).
I realize that in order to improve I really need to be the dumbest guy in the room, which is very likely what I would experience at this "Google" environment.
Family and friends are telling me it doesn't really make sense, since I go from a startup where I have completely proven myself and am essentially free to do whatever I want (almost a "rest and vest" scenario) to a place where I would have to build my reputation from scratch, and even getting a lower title (I have a technical director-like role whereas "Google" is offering me a standard senior software engineer).
Do you have stories where a move such as this backfired on you?
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Worked at Oracle for 5 years...was in a similar situation.

Left to go to a 9 person company full of hot shot DevOps engineers, couldn't have been more happy to be the dumbest person in the room everyday. I learn so much I feel like I should be giving up extra salary to cover all the education I'm getting.

I liked working at Oracle, but am so glad I made the move. At the end of the day, lots of respect and admiration, even at a huge company like Oracle, don't really mean a lot. I used to tell my girlfriend that I worked 80 hours a week even if I did nothing. 25 hours of work at work + 25 hours of studying at home to make up for what I wasn't learning + 30 hours of guilt for working at a place where I wasn't learning anymore.

</comment><comment><USER3> I did a similar thing - went from a startup to a bigger company, a startup in which I noticed I was the "smartest guy in the room" regarding not just mine role, but all the roles. Had a free reign with everything - workload, time, choosing tasks. It's been great. Even though there is less freedom and better perks, I'm still not the "dumbest person in the room" but I am surrounded by awesome teammates and they let me fill my knowledge gaps before starting real work and in turn I fill theirs with my skills that I brushed upon while having the free reign.

</comment><comment><USER4> As a musician I've always found that situation to be the best for improving my musical chops. The trick is to make sure you're good enough to stay in the band.

<comment><USER5> Just wondering, how did you fare well in that scenario, how did you handle anxiety and other obstacles?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Anecdote: I've pretty much always optimized to maximize learning and interesting work even at the expense of giving up safe, comfortable (and lucrative) jobs and friends and family thought I was crazy. I would say this has worked out well for me, in terms of what I know as well as what opportunities I have (and my compensation).

However, it doesn't sound like there is much if any financial risk for you here. I assume "Google" is going to match or bump your salary, and bigcos are certainly stable employers. So you're looking to give up freedom in an environment you can't really do what you want to take less freedom in an environment where you can do what you want? Seems like a no brainer.

In fact, my current situation has become somewhat similar to yours, and I wonder if I should make a change again. You write:

> which is very likely what I would experience at this "Google" environment

I would say to be very careful you've done your due diligence on this in the interview and don't just blindly assume it. I have friends at top tech companies that have had a mix of experiences.

</comment><comment><USER7> You don't really want to be the dumbest guy in the room but you also don't want to be the smartest guy in the room.

If you're the smartest guy in the room you're not going to learn as much.

If you're the dumbest guy in the room you're not going to have opportunities to mentor or lead other people.

</comment><comment><USER8> It's a good idea, in principle; I've seen people who stayed too long in rest- and-vest environments become completely unable to function when the gravy train ended.

The key questions you should be asking yourself is whether you're ready to withstand the stress of being "the dumbest guy in the room" (it's hard on the ego, to say the least), whether you're willing to make the commitment to learn an enormous amount of material in a relatively small amount of time, and whether you can come up to speed with the people in your new environment fast enough to avoid being penalized or even potentially laid off (having a financial cushion or some other backup plan in case things don't work out would probably be a good idea).

<comment><USER9> People who rest and vest hopefully would not care when the gravy train ends? You would have enough money to never work right? If not, why would you rest and vest? It is a waste of time then?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not necessarily. If you would otherwise earn X in a fulfilling job but by resting and vesting in an unfulfilling environment you make 3X because of the vested equity, it might make sense to stay a few years in the latter and try to not completely waste your time by, for example, keeping learning other technologies not related to your actual tasks with the hope of remaining somewhat competitive. It's not "never work again" money, but it certainly can make a difference towards an early retirement.

<comment><USER9> Fair enough but would it not make sense doing something on the side which makes you learn new things? I guess I cannot imagine sitting still.

<comment><USER10> Also in some cases, you are morally bound to work on the startup when you've recovered and not waste time programming some side project. But too burnt out to code at all.

So, what many do is neither of the above - they read books, play games, have meetings, or some other time filling activity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Getting a new job in order to learn more is a great idea.

However, keep in mind that "Google" or other massive companies are not a magic wonderland of The Best Engineers Ever. It's a _very_ large number of software engineers, many of them quite good, many them of amazing, many of them just average. So it will depend on your team, still.

You will definitely do better than "we outsourced to the cheapest people we can find" though, and when you get bored again it's much easier to move sideways inside a large company. So it seems like a reasonable plan.

</comment><comment><USER12> I hang out on Hacker News for a similar reason. Whether or not that is a strategy worth emulating or not is another matter. For me, it's meant I have learned a lot.

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER10> I've been a similar situation lots of times. I'd say, without hesitance, that being the dumbest guy in the room is the best move and I'm trying to do the same.

I also find that I'm at my best when surrounded by people who I admire. When I'm the smartest guy in the room or overqualified for something, I tend to perform very poorly because there's just this feeling of malaise when you stop learning.

<comment><USER13> What's your strategy?

<comment><USER10> There's not really a strategy to it. Ideally, you want to always, always work with people smarter than you. But some companies have limited resources or smarter people may just be a luxury.

So the only move is to move on. Get better jobs. Be in a situation you're uncomfortable in.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> After leaving the startup I had founded, I had the option of earning a six figure salary and a senior position at another company. I passed this up to go back to college. I love math and physics and always regretted not finishing. I'm still in the midst of this so it's hard to tell whether it's the right decision.

Being the dumbest guy in the room, and knowing so is probably good for you in the long run.</comment>


SugarRecord – CoreData management library written in Swift - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/sugarrecord/sugarrecord

<comment><USER2> At first glance, I don't like the Swift custom operators. They are not intuitive and seem there just for the hell of it.</comment>


Facebook's security team tracks posts, location for 'BOLO' threat list - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/facebooks-security-team-tracks-posts-location-for-bolo-threat-list.html <comment><USER2> > _In 2017, a Facebook manager alerted the company 's security teams when a > group of interns she was managing did not log into the company's systems to > work from home. They had been on a camping trip, according to a former > Facebook security employee, and the manager was concerned about their > safety._

> _Facebook 's information security team became involved in the situation and > used the interns' location data to try and find out if they were safe. "They > call it 'pinging them', pinging their Facebook accounts," the former > security employee recalled._

> _After the location data did not turn up anything useful, the information > security team then kept digging and learned that the interns had exchanged > messages suggesting they never intended to come into work that day — > essentially, they had lied to the manager. The information security team > gave the manager a summary of what they had found._

So basically, if a Facebook manager couches their request as concern for your safety, they can track your location on your personal account to uncover where you are? This makes me uneasy.

<comment><USER3> Maybe I'm naive, but I used to work at Google and I'm 100% certain that back then if someone inside the company had used data in this way they would have been fired unconditionally and immediately.

Now I wonder whether the companies are different or the times are.

<comment><USER4> >if someone inside the company had used data in this way they would have been fired unconditionally and immediately.

Unless they're an exec, then they might negotiate an exit package or it wouldn't get to that point.

Didn't the Google Exec who was most recently in the news for sexual misconduct misuse data?

<comment><USER2> >Didn't the Google Exec who was most recently in the news for sexual misconduct misuse data?

I'm not aware of that angle but if you know more info I'd love to read about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's a paragraph here where they talk about reviewing private messenger conversations between interns after they didn't show up for work one day.

That feels pretty invasive. Facebook tried to couch it in "genuine concern" for their safety. I'm not sure that holds water with anyone who's familiar with the workplace culture inside Facebook.

<comment><USER6> On that particular aspect: all Facebook employees (and I believe interns) when they write on Messenger to other employees have an on-screen reminder that their conversations are considered work product and can be monitored or reviewed. At least, that was the case when I was there, I can't think it has changed. I'm assuming this has to do with a lot of well documented legal reasons (insider trading, sexual harassment, etc.) De facto, hardly any conversation goes through email: salary, pension, that kind of things almost exclusively. Project progress, being cancelled, blockers, all that goes through an internal version of Facebook (now Workplace, when I was there, a subset of the main Facebook). It made sense that all that is deemed work product for the company.

I would be more surprised if they had access to conversation with outsiders.

On the "genuine concern", I joined several months after Snowden's revelations. The security team was (and I'm assuming still is) very aware that State agents might try to access employee credentials. Overall, the company is very considerate for employees, typically no matter the cost (e.g. the freezing eggs things) and quite conscious to respect boundaries--but I would expect that a small chance that a hostile Nation state escalated to kidnapping employees is a stretch but not a big one. I'm a little surprised because the company prides itself on not judging, and actually doesn't care much about time spent in the office. Interns might be given a shorter lead there.

With E2E encryption introduced to Messenger since a lot of that could have changed.

<comment><USER7> > On that particular aspect: all Facebook employees (and I believe interns) > when they write on Messenger to other employees have an on-screen reminder > that their conversations are considered work product and can be monitored or > reviewed. At least, that was the case when I was there, I can't think it has > changed.

Do Facebook employees have separate Facebook accounts for work? My impression was that they don't, but I could be wrong.

If they're forced to use their "personal" account for work-related functions, I think that raises all kinds of privacy concerns that probably should negate the principle that employer ownership authorizes monitoring.

<comment><USER8> They do need a FB account to access all internal systems, but that can be a seperate account from their private one

<comment><USER7> > They do need a FB account to access all internal systems, but that can be a > seperate account from their private one

Is there an exception in the TOS for that? It's my understanding that they forbid regular users from creating multiple accounts, though enforcement of the rules is pretty ineffective.

[https://www.facebook.com/help/975828035803295?helpref=uf_per...](https://www.facebook.com/help/975828035803295?helpref=uf_permalink)

<comment><USER9> I doubt it's multiple accounts on the exact same service. I'm guessing fb.com is a near-clone of facebook.com's codebase, personal accounts are facebook.com accounts, and work accounts are fb.com accounts.

<comment><USER10> Maybe it's a separate database, but cloning the code is a terrible idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> First thing it made me think of is when the YouTube offices were shot up by a gunwoman who was apparently upset about their changes in monetization policies.

Of all the companies to 'hate', I'd expect FB to be a much larger target than YT.

<comment> throwaway-1283 Outside of IG influencers (?), FB doesn't really offer a platform for individuals to make money like they can on YouTube

<comment><USER12> There's a lot of MLM/self-help type scams that use Facebook to grow their base that I could see as similarly upset if they were banned or otherwise demonetized.

<comment><USER10> I suspect that the psychology of an activist making money via legit video monetization is different from a black-hat SEO scammer.

Really though, you can't point to logical reasons for a mass attack against strangers. Someone mentally unstable enough to do that could be triggered by anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > "No person would be on BOLO without credible cause," the Facebook spokesman > said in regard to this incident.

A bit of backwards logic to justify the list contents, eh?

<comment><USER14> I'm having trouble making sense of your comment. If your company knew about credible threats ( disgruntled employees, bomb threats, etc ) wouldn't you have a BOLO list? How is that backwards logic at all?

<comment><USER13> The article gives an example of an individual who may not have deserved to be on the list. By stating "No person would be on BOLO without credible cause", they are using a circular logical fallacy (begging the question?) to dismiss any possibility that there may be mistakes made in managing that list.

<comment><USER15> Circular logic is "No person would be on BOLO without credible cause, and the credible cause is that they're on BOLO". What they're saying is that there is a valid reason for each person on the list to be on it. You can take issue with that as a matter of factual accuracy, but there's no tortured use of language happening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> First of all, shit like this year after year is why I don't use fb or insta.

That said, if somebody went on one of my websites and commented that they were mad at me and planned to show up at my house and do nefarious things, well, yes I certainly would be on the lookout for that person.

</comment><comment><USER17> > The company's information security team is capable of tracking these > individuals' whereabouts using the location data they provide through > Facebook's apps and websites. > But Facebook is unique because it can use > its own products to identify these threats and track the location of people > on the list.

This is so scary. That the company feels entitled to use that user data in any way they please is horrifying.

I would not be surprised if they are also using internal data to get to spy on spouses or ex, to stalk people, etc. Once the ethics of a company like this are zero, the possibilities are infinite.

This is why more regulation like the GDPR is needed. And also a closer supervision of the big tech companies.</comment>


India's Contract Tracing App, Aarogya Setu, Open Sourced a Different Codebase - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/jackerhack/status/1266971326918455298 <comment><USER2> They won't show the one they actually released because it's all glue code they copy/pasted from stackoverflow.

<comment><USER3> I would doubt whether they know what's in it

<comment><USER4> probably the contractor expected they could keep the codebase confidential in case customer decides to swap contractors.</comment></comment></comment>


Mosh, the SSH Alternative Option for System Administration - <AUTHOR> http://linux-audit.com/mosh-ssh-alternative-for-system-administration/ <comment><USER2> It does have minor disadvantages, abandoned sessions need housekeeping (a crontab job may work for you), UDP is sometimes blocked in corp/uni firewalls, SSH agent forwarding is tied to first connection (can be worked around), X forwarding doesn't work, I also wonder if the local echo for example using vim causes more burden that it solves when say not in insert mode in vim. Other than that mosh is great especially when mobile or switching between VPNs etc..

<comment><USER3> It's not a SSH replacement - X (and port and agent) forwarding or file transfer are different features. Mosh is a remote terminal client (and an absolutely brilliant one!), whereas SSH has a lot of different applications besides this one.</comment></comment>


PhD Dilemma: Academic experience for working in the industry - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/Is-academic-or-industry-experience-better-for-data-visualization-in-self-monitoring-tools

<comment><USER2> As a final year E.E. Ph.D. student, I want my five years back.

For some reason, I found many professors in US are doing systems. That is something you can do, and can do better in the industry. Competing with the industry in a disadvantageous position is no fun. Before I was admitted to the Ph.D. program, I dreamed of exploring the science for the sake of pushing the human knowledge forward, but I can hardly see anyone in my neighbourhood is doing that. They are just pushing their publication count forward. That's it. It depends on the school culture, maybe. But I see this as a norm.</comment>


Hacking with Mathematica and Wolfram API - <AUTHOR> http://patrickcollison.com/blog/2009/04/hacking-for-fun-and-profit-with-mathematica-and-the-google-analytics-api

<comment><USER2> This article is a tad dated. Most of this stuff can be done with d3.js and underscore.js. The out of the box design would be much better as well.</comment>


Genetically Engineered Salmon Approved for Consumption - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/business/genetically-engineered-salmon-approved-for-consumption.html <comment><USER2> I don't know what I'm supposed to be scared of here. The concept of genetically engineered food doesn't put me off in the least, and the risk of these salmon escaping to the wild doesn't sound particularly dangerous to me. I know there're lots of "unknown unknowns" when it comes to messing with the natural order, but if for some reason they wind up thriving and supplanting the existing salmon population then, what, we wind up with faster-growing wild salmon? I'm sure the local fishermen won't mind.

<comment><USER3> My concern, oddly enough, would be copyright. Suppose the AquAdvantage Salmon escapes into the wild, reproduced, and flourishes. Suppose that it flourishes so well that it displaces the native population of salmon. Then, finally, suppose that Aqua Bounty starts suing everyone and everything who attempts to fish, catch, or farm these salmon, which are now the only thing left.

Such behavior would not be unheard of. See similar accusations against Monsanto: [http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/pages/gm-seed- accidentally...](http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/pages/gm-seed-accidentally- in-farmers-fields.aspx)

<comment><USER4> First of all, it would be patent protections, not copyright. Huge difference. Second, I highly doubt anyone would succeed with such a dubious legal strategy. Catching fish in the wild with your patented genes in them is not a violation of your patent rights - who is the violator? The fish?

<comment><USER5> "That case concerned Percy Schmeiser, who discovered that canola growing on his farm in 1997 was Roundup resistant. He had initially discovered that some canola growing by a roadside along one of his fields was Roundup resistant when he was killing weeds along the road; this led him to spray a three- to four‑acre section of his adjacent field and 60% of the canola survived. Schmeiser harvested the seed from the surviving, Roundup resistant plants, and planted the seed in 1998. Monsanto sued Schmeiser for patent infringement for the 1998 planting. Schmeiser claimed that because the 1997 plants grew from seed that was pollinated with pollen blown into his field from neighboring fields, he owned the harvest and was entitled to do with it whatever he wished, including saving the seeds from the 1997 harvest and planting them in 1998."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_legal_cases)

edit: TL;DR: Monsanto sues farmers, not seeds ;)

<comment><USER6> Schmeiser was found to have deliberately created a Roundup-Ready crop --- he weaned out the non-RR crops by spraying them with glyphosate, preserved the patent-encumbered plants, and then cultivated them so that his fields were ultimately 95+% encumbered, in such a way that he could spray them with Roundup at any point he felt it would be profitable and only then pay the licensing fees.

<comment><USER7> He shouldn't have to pay any fees at all, they were his plants from his normal harvest; it's not his fault roundup ready seeds blew into his fields. Being able to sue someone because your shit got out into the wild and happened to benefit someone else is absurd.

<comment><USER6> There's an intellectually coherent argument that Monsanto should not be able to patent the system of glyphosate-resistence at all. I'm assuming that's where you're coming from.

But I'm not engaging with that argument.

All I'm saying is: the thing that _does not happen_ , but that everyone on the Internet seems to think happens _all the time_ , is Monsanto seeds blowing onto some random field, and then Monsanto suing you when you sell the resulting crop.

Everyone who has been sued by Monsanto has taken active steps to capitalize on their "unauthorized" seeds.

<comment><USER7> > is Monsanto seeds blowing onto some random field, and then Monsanto suing > you when you sell the resulting crop.

> Everyone who has been sued by Monsanto has taken active steps to capitalize > on their "unauthorized" seeds.

Those are the same thing. That's what farmers do with crops, they capitalize on them by selling them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> IMO, the most important section from the article:

But some scientists have dismissed these concerns. William Muir, a professor of animal sciences at Purdue University, said the fish posed no risk to the environment. "In contrast, the current practice of using wild caught salmon as a food source is not sustainable; our oceans are overfished," he said in a statement. "This development provides a safe and sustainable alternative."

</comment><comment><USER9> From a brief by Food & Water Watch, [http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/sites/default/files/GE%20Sa...](http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/sites/default/files/GE%20Salmon%20IB%20Jan%202013_0.pdf)

 _" AquaBounty has radically altered Atlantic salmon by inserting genetic material from an eel-like fish and a chinook salmon, designed to make the fish grow faster … an advisory panel of scientists … found major errors in AquaBounty's science and the FDA's data analysis. Scientists were especially critical of the small sample sizes used by AquaBounty —— often only six or seven GE fish were used in comparisons.

… The FDA has chosen to regulate GE animals as a veterinary drug rather than a food, a decision that severely limits the scope of the agency's risk assessment. For example, the agency has not conducted a single feeding study to assess health risks associated with eating GE salmon … Before AquaBounty researchers physically examined GE salmon for health problems, they selectively killed off irregular fish, biasing the data set and severely compromising the integrity of the data.

… Acknowledging the threat of escape, AquaBounty has attempted to render GE salmon sterile, which would prevent sexual reproduction in the event that the fish are released into the wild. However, the company's regulatory submissions indicate that up to 5 percent of GE salmon will not be sterile … AquaBounty appears to be the biotech industry's sacrificial lamb —— securing regulatory approval of a product that will likely be a market failure, but that will pave the way for other bioengineered food animals."_

<comment><USER10> Is there any info on what labeling will be required on packaging and in restaurants for this fish or anything that contains it?

I like to think I'm not overly paranoid about genetically modified things as long as proper due-diligence is conducted, but these quotes here make me think that is not the case, or is being intentionally subverted.

At the very least, I'd take reassurance in my ability to avoid eating this.

<comment><USER11> no labeling.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> From Wikipedia:

> AquAdvantage salmon are triploid (having three chromosomes instead of just > two) female Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar), with a single copy of the opAFP- > GHc2 construct, which codes for a promoter from ocean pout and a growth > hormone from Chinook salmon., 8 These transferred genes allow the > genetically modified fish to achieve accelerated growth rates, which confer > longer survival and reproductive success.

At what point do we stop calling it salmon? Reminds me of the Ship of Theseus:

> The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had > thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of > Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, > putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this > ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical > question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the > same, and the other contending that it was not the same.

— Plutarch, Theseus

Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AquAdvantage_salmon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AquAdvantage_salmon)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus)

<comment><USER13> The ship is not the same as what happens to it. The river is not just the water that's streaming in the channel. You are not just what happens to you. _State is not identity,_ if it were, the past would always change and there would be no history. State is not identity, in programming and in real life.

<comment><USER14> Not sure what that means. If a ship is burned to ashes, then is it still a ship?

If those ashes are then mixed with other substances to form construction material from which a home is built, is it still a ship?

If wood from a forest is never assembled into a ship, is it still a ship?

State and identity seem intrinsically linked.

<comment><USER7> >State and identity seem intrinsically linked.

They aren't. Two dollar bills are equal, but not identical; they are only coincidentally related. Things that are identical are always equal but things that are equal are not always identical. To compare identity, a thing must be compared to itself in the real world, thus is the ship still the same ship it was before, even if all the parts have been replaced. The answer is open to debate, both sides have valid arguments.

<comment><USER14> Not sure we're using the same context, but I still believe that the state of a thing absolutely contributes to the identity of a thing.

If you dissolve the ink from a dollar bill such that it's just a piece of paper, would you still say it's a dollar bill? I would say no. Its state has changed and, thus, has its identity (i.e. how we identify it).

But, if you say, "yes, it's still a dollar bill, albeit in a deteriorated condition", then you have to answer the question, "when did it first become a dollar bill?" In so doing, you must acknowledge that it underwent a state change at some point which changed its identity in the first place.

Identity is something we impute, based in no small part on the state of a thing.

Lastly, I think your mention of equality vs identity is flipped. They are only equal by one coincidental (arbitrary) measure: monetary value. But, you could just as soon measure the physical dimensions or weight.

But, while they are not necessarily equal, they are identical: that is, we identify them each as dollar bills.

<comment><USER7> > If you dissolve the ink from a dollar bill such that it's just a piece of > paper, would you still say it's a dollar bill? I would say no. Its state has > changed and, thus, has its identity (i.e. how we identify it).

That's not what he means by identity; it's still the same piece of paper and thus it's identity has not changed, even though it's state has. That it's a dollar bill has nothing to do with its identity because he's not using the term in that way; he's literally using a programmers definitions of those words. The Mississippi river is still the Mississippi regardless of the fact that the water it's completely different water each day. Identity is independent from state. Two dollar bills have equal state but independent identity. You are still you even though the cells in your body are not the same cells you were born with. Your identity is the pattern of electricity that make up your personality and consciousness, not the cells you are built from. The cells are state, not identity.

<comment><USER14> Consciousness is more ethereal and harder to quantify, so I would probably carve that out.

But, looking at the more quantifiable world, I don't see how state is _completely_ independent of identity. Can there be some variance in state, while the identity remains unchanged? Sure. But, it appears to be a question of degree, in both quantity and quality.

A fundamental question is, can a thing ever cease to exist? If so, then can a change in state precipitate its demise? Or said another way, can it cease to exist, yet retain its state? So, I would say that there are state changes which can alter or completely destroy identity.

But, if you say that a thing cannot cease to exist, then you are effectively saying that there is not such a thing as identity in the first place.

EDIT: Wait, maybe I am getting your point. Are you saying that a thing may cease to exist, but its identity doesn't? That, if the Mississippi is filled with cement such that it is no longer a river, we would still use its identity as a pointer to something which was, but no longer exists?

<comment><USER7> > But, looking at the more quantifiable world, I don't see how state is > completely independent of identity.

I gave you an example, two dollar bills have equal state but completely different identity. The identity obviously has nothing at all to do with state.

It's clear you're not a programmer or you wouldn't be having the issues you're having understanding this distinction. Programming 101, state and identity are different things.

> A fundamental question is, can a thing ever cease to exist?

That depends on how you define thing, and that question has nothing to do with the issue at hand, state vs identity.

> If so, then can a change in state precipitate its demise? Or said another > way, can it cease to exist, yet retain its state?

That's a bad example that mixes in unrelated issues, flip it around. Can it maintain its state yet lose its identity, and the answer is yes it can, by being copied. A copy of a thing has all the same state as the original thing but has a different identity. If I clone you, the clone is not you, you and the clone have distinct identities but equal state. Therefore identity and state are clearly distinct, QED.

> So, I would say that there are state changes which can alter or completely > destroy identity.

True, but irrelevant and merely coincidental.

> But, if you say that a thing cannot cease to exist, then you are effectively > saying that there is not such a thing as identity in the first place.

No I'm not. Get off the cease to exist point, it's confusing you; look at the copy angle, copies make it clear that state and identity are not the same thing and are completely independent of each other.

Yes, it's possible to think of state changes that affect identity by killing a thing, but that's coincidental and tangential, it doesn't mean state and identity are the same thing, only that they both rely on existence of a thing.

Things can and do have equal state and distinct identity, money is a prime example; state and identity are distinct, accept it.

<comment><USER14> 1\. I am a programmer.

2\. I was making a different point. Your example that references programming 101 is unrelated.

3\. State and identity are distinct from one point of view (yours, here), but not all possible points of view. Perhaps because you are a programmer, you are having difficulty seeing alternative interpretations.

4\. I acknowledged my understanding of your point of view in my EDIT at least a day before you posted. However, you seemed to have overlooked that even while meticulously quoting my other statements and re-making your point with added snarkiness and pseudo-programmer elitism.

I get it. We all need a win sometimes. So, let's just say you've won and call it a day.

<comment><USER7> No, you don't get it, wasn't about winning, but whatever.

<comment><USER14> Just read some of your other comments and found a very clear pattern.

You have a strong tendency to put words in people's mouths, insist they mean one thing when they clearly state they mean another, omit their key points to make your own, and generally browbeat them over often narrow sub-points that you refuse to release.

You appear to enjoy envisioning yourself to be superior, yet you seem to operate largely in a binary mode, and have great difficulty seeing shades of gray. So, the other person must be approached as a zero to your one (or vice- versa).

I still enjoyed some of your comments, but that style makes it really tough to have a real discussion, as evidenced on this thread and many others where bewilderment and frustration are expressed over your "style".

I hope you'll consider allowing others ownership of their own thoughts, opinions, and ideas, and trust that same actually are as expressed by them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> As long as this is labeled as genetically modified, I'm ok with it.

I generally trust the biologists on this subject that don't have a conflict of interest. That said, I'm uninterested in GMO food for my family and we don't eat it whenever we have the power to choose.

<comment><USER16> "The officials said the fish would not have to be labeled as being genetically engineered, a policy consistent with its stance on foods made from genetically engineered crops."

As an aside, what is your reason for not consuming GMO foods if you also trust that many biologists feel that they can be safe? Genuinely curious not trying to be snarky.

<comment><USER15> I think the distinction is unclear on level of modification. Generally, you can have 3 kinds of modifications. From least likely to be dangerous to most- 1) gene sequence removal; 2) gene splicing from two different species; 3) whole new organism. If I were to purposefully consume GMO, I would like to know what exactly the severity is of what has been done.

Since we can't even get basic labels, let alone information on how extreme the modification is- I just choose to outright avoid.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "making it the first genetically altered animal to be cleared for American supermarkets and dinner tables"

What is the definition of "genetically altered"? I assume that cannot cover selective breeding, for example.

</comment><comment><USER17> Ah, none of that is an issue. The issue is in USA only, GM is not a required label.

That's it.</comment>