Notre-Dame cathedral: Firefighters tackle blaze in Paris - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794 <comment><USER3> I had the privilege of undertaking the first (and now the last..) study on the spire of Notre Dame since 1933.

The restoration works that were under place are a result in part of our recommended actions.

The spire was incredible. It was one oak trunk, connected with a "Scarf Joint", or "Jupitre" in French (Bolt-of-lightning joint)

There were the names of the last guys to inspect it in the 1930s, engraved at the top. There was a french ww2 bullet embedded in the spire, presumably shot at a germany sniper who was in the spire...

Everything in the roof was antique wood. Anyone that went into the roof was paranoid of fire.

It's a very, very sad day.

As a celebration, I'm throwing up some photos that we'd never published from our study.

[https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0](https://imgur.com/gallery/9k9I8Y0)

<comment><USER4> Just a point in clarification: when you say antique, that means mid 19th century. The original 13th century spire was removed in 1786 because it was falling apart.

<comment><USER5> > when you say antique, that means mid 19th century

Where is that coming from?

I don't see any definitions that constrains antique to a specific time window, some definitions/laws include "at least 100 years old"

Antique: a work of art, piece of furniture, or decorative object made at an earlier period and according to various customs laws at least 100 years ago

[0] [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antique](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/antique)

<comment><USER6> They meant that antique means "only" 19th century _in this case_ because that's when the spire was installed. It's not _as antique_ as the rest of the cathedral.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For those asking about why there isn't visible water being sprayed on the fire... There's no point. Any firefighting efforts are focused on preventing the spread of the fire to other structures (potentially other parts of the same structure)

As a rule of thumb, the water flow necessary to extinguish a burning structure is the volume of the structure (in feet) divided by 100. The resulting number is (in rough numbers) the amount of water you need, in gallons per minute. For a fire this size, you're looking at tens of thousands of gallons of water per minute. It's just not possible.

<comment><USER8> The other thing those people might consider, and this includes our president, is that they aren't firefighters, have no idea what to do, and surely live in a place unequal to Paris in any parameter upon which you'd care to compare. IT'S PARIS. They're in Paris. And to paraphrase Chevy Chase: You're not. They know what they're doing. Imagine you're the Paris fire chief. That's like being the NYC fire chief. Such a person has a distaste for explaining to superiors why they mismanaged a firefighting operation, and has a lifetime of experience, and hence, tends to manage it properly.

"Must act quickly!" Ya think? Hopefully the fire department in Paris, France is listening for gems like that from out here in the boonies / the ghetto hemisphere. How many medieval churches are there on our whole continent? Call us if you want a church _bombed_.

(edited slightly in response to child comments)

<comment><USER9> Wow. He's not trying to give anyone advice. He only wants people to talk about him while they're talking about this news piece.

<comment><USER8> Shoot, you're probably right, and I fell for it. I guess the unintended consequence of my strict "ignore" policy over the last 3 years, is that I'm still a novice 3 years later. (Rarely do I see those brainfarts, but this one was unfortunately quoted in an article.)

<comment><USER9> It would be nice if there was somewhere to find high quality news reporting that avoided toxic stuff like tweets. I'm not sure what that embedded tweet adds to this BBC story besides getting people worked up over something that's totally unrelated. You'd think Notre Dame burning down would be enough.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Today, we are all French. As a student of European History, I want to curl up and cry. I proposed to my beautiful wife of 11 years beneath the spire of Notre Dame. We fell in love walking along the bouquinistes. There is a terrible empty feeling in my heart this afternoon. It is like losing a part of myself this day.

Yes, I know the Notre Dame will be built again. But that might not happen till after I am long gone.

<comment><USER11> You have a great story (albeit with a touch of sadness).

I would think that this type of event would bring the French together in a way like few other events could. I'd expect Gilets Jaunes movement to subside quickly.

Yes, today we are all French - and expect that we all want to see Our Lady rebuilt. Faster, better, stronger, and much more fire-retardant than in the past.

The Windsor Castle fire of 1992 was refurbished in 5 years, [0] and although a national treasure, it was not at the level of the Notre Dame. But it was rebuilt, and was even completed ahead of schedule.

The cost doesn't matter - it will probably be well over a billion. But you will see concerts, TV specials, and all sorts of fund raisers to rebuild her.

And in this you will see the best thing of all - the French (and even people like me who are only French on occasions like this) showing our love to rebuild her.

 _This is the message you should hold in your heart today - one of love and empathy, and dare I say, the grace of God that she was intended to foster._

[0] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Windsor_Castle_fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Windsor_Castle_fire)

<comment><USER11> And the pledges have already started! The owners of LVMH have pledged 200 million euro. And they weren't even the first! [0]

[0] - [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-notredame- arnault/b...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-notredame- arnault/billionaire-arnaults-family-and-lvmh-to-donate-200-million-euros-for- paris-notre-dame-idUKKCN1RS0HC)

<comment><USER11> Obviously the proof will be in the pudding, but it looks like 5 years is now the (aggressive) goal for rebuilding...

[https://apnews.com/0978e08a5e4848348cdb80745ab2ab8a](https://apnews.com/0978e08a5e4848348cdb80745ab2ab8a)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Spire collapsed: [https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171](https://twitter.com/patrickgaley/status/1117848909877895171)

<comment><USER13> Many of these wooden structures are nearly 1,000 years old. The spire itself only dates from the 19th century.

<comment><USER14> Does wood really last that long? I know ancient Japanese wooden temples are basically rebuilt every 30 years or so, a constant renewal akin to the Ship of Theseus. Are European wooden structures similarly renewed?

<comment><USER15> Wood, if properly taken care of and kept dry, will last basically forever. I'd imagine they do that in Japan because of humidity or so.

<comment><USER16> They do it in Japan because they choose to. Rebuilding it every generation is a religious ritual tied closely to Shintoism. The buildings certainly aren't rotting out completely over that short timeframe!

Many Americans live in wooden houses that are much older than that. The biggest problem tends to be termites.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Very sad. While a different cathedral, it reminded me of Orson Welles' soliloquy in "F for Fake" on Chartres ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmjh8LL2zA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmjh8LL2zA)):

"And this has been standing here for centuries. The premier work of man perhaps in the whole Western world, and it's without a signature: Chartres. A celebration to God's glory and to the dignity of man. All that's left, most artists seem to feel these days, is man. Naked, poor, forked radish. There aren't any celebrations. Ours, the scientists keep telling us, is a universe which is disposable. You know, it might be just this one anonymous glory of all things, this rich stone forest, this epic chant, this gaiety, this grand, choiring shout of affirmation, which we choose when all our cities are dust, to stand intact, to mark where we have been, to testify to what we had it in us to accomplish.

Our works in stone, in paint, in print, are spared, some of them for a few decades or a millennium or two, but everything must finally fall in war or wear away into the ultimate and universal ash. The triumphs and the frauds, the treasures and the fakes. A fact of life. We're going to die. 'Be of good heart,' cry the dead artists out of the living past. Our songs will all be silenced — but what of it? Go on singing. Maybe a man's name doesn't matter all that much."

<comment><USER18> In one Scientific American article, the top contender for the building which would remain longest if people suddenly disappeared would be the bottom pillars of the St. Louis Arch. Reinforced concrete sheathed in stainless steel. The central arch is just steel, so it would corrode and collapse faster. The remaining pillars would persist for many thousands of years just on their own.

<comment><USER19> I guess they are counting the Arch, but not the great pyramids, as a building?

<comment><USER18> From what I remember of the article, the pyramids would be right up there, but they're subject to wearing of the exposed stone. (Also, as another analysis I came across mentioned, they'd be buried by the desert sands.) The combination of stainless steel with reinforced concrete makes a big difference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Cathedrals like the Notre Dame were the moonshots of their time, only able to be built by immense societal consensus. It's unlikely with todays demographics shifts that we will ever witness a project as monumental as these were 1000 years ago. What a shame.

<comment><USER21> You're aware that the literal moonshots were in living memory, right?

<comment><USER22> Within living memory, but during a vastly different (political) climate.

 _Edit:_ Can anyone explain to me why this is getting downvoted?

Is there really a consensus that the current political climate is comparable to the cold war?

The cold war which is intertwined with the space race that put a man on the moon?

<comment><USER23> You mean when they shot the president? Or when they were putting communists on a list just 15 years earlier?

<comment><USER22> Is it really hard to guess that I was talking about the _cold war_ and the aptly-named _space race_ (which is directly related to said cold war)?

I can't comprehend how anything _else_ could come to mind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> The saddest thing will be losing the stained glass windows. Those have been somehow preserved for centuries but are going to get severely damaged here.

<comment><USER25> I mean the entire cathedral has already been severely damaged. These things are in a state of constant rebuilding - it's took many generations just to get _built_.

Notre Dame will be fine.

<comment><USER26> > Notre Dame will be fine.

The walls maybe, but the roof is mostly wood, made 800+ years ago, it's gone, the statues, the drapes, the windows, the bells and the clock are gone forever.

<comment><USER27> Expect photogrametry recreaton of every statue.

<comment><USER28> Do we even _have_ that data?

<comment><USER29> For _some_ resolution and completeness, certainly. The rest can be inferred. It won't be perfect, of course, but I'd be surprised if it isn't attempted at some point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I lived in Paris as a child and have often been at Notre Dame. I still feel heavily connected to France. Seeing this precious diamond burn is like having my own house burning. What a cultural tragedy.

<comment><USER30> What kind of cultural war did I get in that by expressing my feelings towards this monument I get downvoted?

<comment><USER31> It's quite weird, I'm not sure why you are being downvoted. I appreciated your sentiment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Interesting (but not surprising) to see this at the top of HN. I wonder if programmers feel even more existential dread about this compared to the average person — Notre Dame is a monument that seems eternal compared to the web apps we build.

edit: "compared to the average person"

<comment><USER33> Someday, when we win the final battle against Moore's Law, computers will stop evolving. Software will become as stable as medieval architecture. Maybe not in our lifetimes, but it'll happen.

I'm currently reading a science fiction novel that has a scene of someone who just woke up from nearly 200 years of hibernation getting attacked by all sorts of futuristic machinery, due to a 200 year old assassination virus that was still running. It could find him using the inevitable everywhere surveillance (retina scans everywhere), and then use whatever to attack - automated flying cars, a robot waiter, even a couch massage unit.

<comment><USER34> >Software will become as stable as medieval architecture

No chance. Software gets abandoned all the time, and mostly for economic reasons.

<comment><USER33> Not all software. Linux is over 25 years old and shows no signs of abandonment. I think the odds are very good that it'll still be in use a century from now. Apache is almost as old, if you count its NCSA roots. Microsoft SQL Server is basically 1990s Sybase with a new GUI. Etc.

I think the odds are much higher that we'll see the end of significant advancement in computing power than the odds that we'll see Linux pass into memory. In Vernor Vinge's marvelous novel _A Deepness in the Sky_ , programmer-archeologists dig through millennia of software on a 5000 year old spaceship, but it's still running Unix underneath, because no one ever came up with anything better.

<comment><USER35> > it's still running Unix underneath, because no one ever came up with > anything better.

That gave a good chuckle. I'm delighted to give that book a go.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> The Crown of Thorns is kept in the treasury at Notre Dame and was due to be displayed all day this Friday for Good Friday. How it ended up there is an interesting tour of European history in itself. Let's hope that it has been saved.

</comment><comment><USER37> This will probably be an unpopular opinion, so let me first start by saying I certainly mourn the loss of history, the loss of a beautiful structure, and that which was inside.

However, as I watched it burn, the thought uppermost to my mind was the nearly 200 years it took to build, and therefore 200 years worth of sucking money and resources from the local (and probably some non-local) populace. And this during a period of history when many lived in abject poverty. How much more might have been added to society if those resources had been used to better effect?

It reminds me of how, even in modern times, the Catholic church has done much the same. My father grew up in the north eastern US in a poor urban area. His family was dirt poor and struggled to get 3 basic meals a day. Yet the local parish pressured, guilted, shamed, and instilled fear in the parishioners to get them to give 10% of their income to the church.

So yes, I mourn Notre Dame, but I can't separate it in my head from the financial predations of the church on its followers.

<comment><USER35> Tourism is the opposite of sucking money from the local populace? It's a cultural landmark that, iirc, draws in a million tourists per year.

I kind am torn about your reasoning, but I understand it myself. If science and technology was paraded XYZ years earlier, wouldn't things be so much better? Except it's not that easy. Dumping a ton of gold in a pre-medieval economy is worthless. Dumping the right ideas instead (renaissance, medicine, industrialisation) would have been priceless. Though, I wonder, what could have happened if instead people were taxed 10% they invested that in other means -- wouldn't it be nice if it had compounded over all those years...

<comment><USER37> Your right, in modern times tourism has at least given something back economically. But it's the "10% they invested in other means" I think about too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> A refresher on the scope and methods of laser-scanning Notre Dame. Professor Andrew Tallon, who steered this project, died last November but I think it's safe to say he will live on through his work. [https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew- ta...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150622-andrew-tallon-notre- dame-cathedral-laser-scan-art-history-medieval-gothic/)

Locals report the damage may not have been as severe as feared. [http://johannesviii.tumblr.com/post/184208321259/jonphaedrus...](http://johannesviii.tumblr.com/post/184208321259/jonphaedrus- notre-dame-is-burning-this-is-ok)

First photographs from inside the building are encouraging: [https://twitter.com/becket/status/1117919627642900480](https://twitter.com/becket/status/1117919627642900480)

</comment><comment><USER39> I hope someone did a 3D scan of the entire structure. Seems likely someone would have.

<comment><USER40> It is one of the most photographed landmarks in the world (with...billions(?) of pictures), so even without a proper 3D scan we probably could remodel the whole thing to an astounding precision.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Maybe it'll be better than we think. I've been to the Cathedral in Köln [0]. Maybe Notre Dame is not completely lost.

[0]: [http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/2014/07/shootout-at- col...](http://worldwartwo.filminspector.com/2014/07/shootout-at-cologne- cathedral.html)

</comment><comment><USER42> To preempt the conspiracy theorists showing up...

> Firefighters were rushing to try to contain a fire that has broken out at > the cathedral, which police said began accidentally and was linked to > building work at the site.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame- fir...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-fire-paris- france-cathedral)

<comment><USER43> Facts aren't an antidote to conspiracy thinking.

To the conspiracy minded, facts only prove how deep the conspiracy goes.

<comment><USER44> A lot of "conspiracy theorists" were proved right by the Snowden discoveries. Not all of them are lunatics, some extrapolate facts and expect something most people would not. One is not either sane or conspiracy minded, there are a lot of people that would be helped with facts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> [https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yNGavoByLgJj](https://www.pscp.tv/w/1yNGavoByLgJj) that video is heartbreaking, and I have seen some image that the entire roof is gone.....fuck :(

</comment><comment><USER46> What a loss. Absolutely heartbreaking. I spend a good deal of my time in a (far far less beautiful) cathedral, and I can't imagine what it would feel like to lose it, and this is the Notre Dame.

</comment><comment><USER47> About 11 years ago, I climbed to the top of the spire of Notre Dame. It was not a place open to the public. (Although this is true, I find my own story hard to believe, so I will understand if there is skepticism.)

We were drunk and it was dark and late. We hopped the iron fence in the back, and scaled the southern wall that runs along the nave, where the flying buttresses are.

To get to the top, you climbed the walls and roof outside the building until you reached the base of the spire, and then you climbed inside the spire up several stories linked by rough wooden ladders, and then you had to get out and climb outside again, on a series of metal hooks, to get to the top where you could touch a metal globe and cross.

There was very little security (just one trap door inside the spire that you had to climb through, where you had to make sure breaking an electrical current didn't set off an alarm).

It was all very old, obviously, and old in a way of places where no one ever goes. Little used, and therefore neglected. Was the wiring on the trapdoor well insulated? I doubt it.

There was a small group of climbers in Paris who knew about this. Maybe a couple dozen people. One of them would occasionally lead a small group of friends: free climbing to the top of one segment of the wall, and then letting down a rope to help up those behind.

Notre Dame is at the center of Paris. There is a bronze marker in front of the church called "kilometre zero," from which all distances along French national routes are measured. From the top of the spire, the city fanned out like petals around a pistil. Paris was made to be seen from that one point, where no one ever went except a few climbers and pigeons, and maybe an adventurous priest.

The climber who took us up to near the top of the spire lay himself down on a rafter in its hollow interior, above the void, and fell asleep. Like I said, we were drunk, and it was all very dumb and dangerous.

When we came back down, about a foot before the last person touched the ground again, his rope broke. He picked it up, stared at it for a second, murmured "C'est mort", and threw it away.

<comment><USER48> Cherish that memory! It felt good to read.

<comment><USER47> Thanks! And I guess the point I wanted to make is that there was no insulation up there. No modernization had been done. The whole thing was just wood and rock: think San Francisco in early 1906.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Can fire cause significant structural damage to a stone building like that?

<comment><USER50> There is lots of wood in that stone building. Lots.

<comment><USER51> Also, high enough temperatures can change the stone. I'm not remotely a material scientist. I vaguely remember stone barbecue pits require some special consideration.

There are also probably concerns about thermal expansions as well. The stone might resettle a little bit differently.

<comment><USER52> At high temperature some types of stone explode or at least crack.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> Why did this vanish from the front page?

<comment><USER54> I noticed that too. Apparently hn's algorithm really likes recent posts. Switch your view from "top" to "best" and it jumps back up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> imagine being the guy that accidentally burned down the Notre Dame Cathedral in 2019

</comment><comment><USER56> Here's a firefighter on twitter describing the difficulties involved with fighting a fire of this type:

[https://berb.ec/ndfire](https://berb.ec/ndfire)

</comment><comment><USER57> Don't mean to be insensitive to the fire but I'm just glad there's no reported human injuries. Things are just things. Even if they are artifacts that represent more.

</comment><comment><USER58> I might be in the bargaining stage of loss - but I have to think that the architects and engineers who worked on Notre-Dame in the 12th and 13th centuries designed it to be gutted by fire in a way that it could be rebuilt.

My undergrad's main building - definitely nothing comparable to this cathedral, but from a time where fire fighting wasn't that great - <USER2> through this three times, and was always restored. It seems like this happened a lot, and was something builders considered.

</comment><comment><USER59> Very tragic, and events like this make me wish I decided to to travel more! For context, we have burnt down and rebuilt cathedrals before, it just takes a generation! The Reims Cathedral, which is a little bit smaller, was shelled in WWI, and it wasn't until 1938 until it was considered 'fixed. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Cathedral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reims_Cathedral)

</comment><comment><USER60> At the beginning of holy week too...

</comment><comment><USER61> «I know this doesn't help, but we have exquisite 3D laser maps of every detail of Notre Dame, thanks to the incredible work of @Vassar art historian Andrew Tallon. Prof Tallon passed away last November, but his work will be absolutely crucial»

[https://twitter.com/grouchybagels/status/1117852841530368000...](https://twitter.com/grouchybagels/status/1117852841530368000?s=21)

<comment><USER62> Your comment reminded me of this story from the codeless code[0]

>..."The initiate was only half-right," said Bawan to the emptiness. "True, the value lies not in carven oak, but neither does it lie in the shape of the carving; for both the real pillar and the virtual one may be lost, and the temple will be no poorer. But when wood first yields to metal, one more thing is made: and that is the sculptor."

This building was a major achievement that inspired millions of people through centuries. It is a landmark of humanity. A simple physical fire will not destroy its legacy in our culture.

[0] [http://thecodelesscode.com/case/122](http://thecodelesscode.com/case/122)

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> Live video from Reuters here: [https://www.reuters.tv/l/PFyC](https://www.reuters.tv/l/PFyC)

</comment><comment><USER64> Very very sad news. Invaluable piece of history.

</comment><comment><USER65> Yikes. I wonder what was the nature of the work being performed. Perhaps they were working with volatile solvents?

<comment><USER16> Could be a spark from a welder, a worker on the roof taking a smoke break, an electrical fault, who knows. There's any number of possible ignition sources and there's a lot of wood in that structure.

<comment><USER26> I'm following the french live coverage. Apparently the chief architect confirmed that no workers were present on the building at that time.

<comment><USER16> Sounds most likely to be an electrical fault, then. That's what burned down the Brazilian national museum too.

<comment><USER66> Or arson.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> > So horrible to watch the massive fire at Notre Dame

> Cathedral in Paris. Perhaps flying water tankers could be

> used to put it out. Must act quickly!

From what I understand about fires, a lot of damage also comes from the act of putting them out. If it doesn't have fire damage it will probably have water damage. Also, I imagine the stone may not appreciate rapid cooling.

> The Paris prosecutor's office said it has opened an

> inquiry into the incident.

[Pure speculation]: One of the first thoughts that came to mind is that this is deliberate. Specifically regarding the Yellow Vests protests that are still very much ongoing, despite reduced media attention [1]. Perhaps this was in anticipation of the debate results [2].

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-13/yellow- ve...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-13/yellow-vest- protests-continue-ahead-of-macron-debate-results)

[2] [https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/04/13/emmanuel- macron-...](https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/04/13/emmanuel-macron-ends- his-great-national-debate)

</comment><comment><USER68> I'd recommend following the events live on Twitter: [https://twitter.com/search?q=%23notredame](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23notredame)

Though the fire seems quite intense, not sure how much will be preserved.

<comment><USER69> Social media doesn't seem like a good way to follow live events. It values being first, and being shocking, over being accurate.

As much as rolling news has its issues, live television news from a reputable network is better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame- fir...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-fire-paris- france-cathedral#img-1)

</comment><comment><USER71> It seems pretty widespread:

[https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/105852910-155535029154...](https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/105852910-1555350291548gettyimages-1137422977.jpeg)

</comment><comment><USER72> If it burns down perhaps a functional skyscraper should be built in it's place. It would be a testament to a better, modernist future that we could build if we disregard all prior historical biases people all over the world still have

<comment><USER73> especially religious biases

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> Notre Dame could have burned down at any point in the last seven hundred years. The only bright point about this tragedy is that it happened after the invention of color high resolution photography and videography.

</comment><comment><USER75> Lord have mercy

</comment><comment><USER75> Kyrie eleison!

</comment><comment><USER76> I was lucky to visit back in 2009. It's so much more intimate in real life than I would have expected. Tragic to see it go up in flames. Heart goes out to Paris.

</comment><comment><USER77> This is terrible. I've been to the cathedral. France is awesome. The Louvre was awesome. To see Notre Dame in flames is just sad.

</comment><comment><USER78> Curious, for situations like this what happens if we airdrop a ton of small balls of dry ice? Like a hailstorm of dry ice?

<comment><USER79> I'd imagine there are a few problems with approaching this as a solution. This is all just speculation on my part.

The weight itself being a problem first off, as it could cause further damage and even make it easier for the fire to spread.

The rate of sublimation would be a problem too, as the outgassing could actually act as an insulating layer, preventing the heat of the fire from actually increasing the release of CO2 at a useful rate to displace the oxygen that is enabling the fire.

Additionally, normally it is recommended to work with dry ice in a well- ventilated environment. CO2 is toxic, and also displaces oxygen, creating a significant risk of asphyxiation. With very large volumes such as this, you cannot effectively ventilate, so this could cause risks for those in the surrounding environment, and also makes it impossible for firemen to work in the area. They can't exactly run in with masks and have tanks of oxygen strapped to their backs.

<comment><USER80> >makes it impossible for firemen to work in the area. They can't exactly run in with masks and have tanks of oxygen strapped to their backs.

I always thought fire fighters do that routinely: breathe from tanks of either oxygen or oxygen mixed with other gases.

<comment><USER79> Actually they breathe compressed air (not specifically higher in oxygen content than uncompressed air) so that would be an option. I'm not sure why I was thinking that this would not be viable.

However, as CO2 sinks within normal atmosphere compared with smoke which typically rises, as the dry ice sublimates it becomes much more of a hazard for the area surrounding the fire.

For an extreme example of exposure to CO2, see the Lake Nyos disaster [1] that killed people & animals in an area 16 miles around the lake.

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> I wonder if the Photosynth models of Notre Dame still exist, or if they could be of any help in rebuilding.

</comment><comment><USER82> York minster fire root cause was electric wiring renovations

</comment><comment><USER83> Quelle catastrophe

<comment><USER84> Quelle _

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Terrible. So sad.

</comment><comment><USER85> That's terrible. I hope nobody is hurt

<comment><USER86> Firefighters have said no deaths, which is good. No reports of injuries from a religious official.

<comment><USER85> Good to know. Thanks for posting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> What is the building made of? Sand, gravel, stone, and cement are fairly inert. It must be made of some other flammable material.

<comment><USER88> A lot of the structure is wood.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> Sprinkler system installed?

</comment><comment><USER89> Why no sprinkler system?

</comment><comment><USER90> This was shown on PBS in the 80's, and it still holds up. As a nerdy kid, I remember being captivated by the animated segments.

TL;DR - The danger of fire has always been an issue in the design and construction of these cathedrals.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZpOd2pHiI0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZpOd2pHiI0)

</comment><comment><USER91> This is horrible. I wonder what on the scaffold started the fire. Even a cigarette could have done this..?

</comment><comment><USER92> Unprecedented tragedy. It is also a tragedy of French people who have become rooted in the society that is far far from perfect. It's a society that is entrenched in special interests, arbitrary rules, bogus leaders, and other numerous ills, such as anti-Semitism and general snobbery. They pretend that France is sophisticated, and yet they allow something like that to happen. Excuse me, but Dutch would do better job saving Amsterdam's red light district.

</comment><comment><USER93> doesn't look like they have any capacity for even fighting it. where are the planes loaded with water? firetrucks with ladders?

<comment><USER94> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Fire_Brigade)

"it is the largest fire service in Europe and the third largest urban fire service in the world, after the Tokyo Fire Department and New York City Fire Department. Its motto is "Save or Perish" (French "Sauver ou périr")."

I'm sure they have enough capacity.

Also you don't just drop water from planes above cities... this makes no sense.

<comment><USER95> > Also you don't just drop water from planes above cities... this makses no > sense.

Superb way to collapse the structure, incinerate/crush the firefighters, and endanger pretty much anyone around the area, all while leaving pretty much nothing to be saved. Say nothing of anyone that might be trapped in there.

<comment><USER7> [https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/trump-encourages-france- to-u...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/trump-encourages-france-to-use- flying-water-tankers-for-notre-dame-fire.html)

<comment><USER95> Oh, that was in the back of my mind when I responded. Most assuredly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> Too early to say if it is related but a dozen or more Catholic Churches across France have been desecrated, vandalized, or set on fire since February of this year.

[https://aleteia.org/2019/02/16/string-of-attacks-on- french-c...](https://aleteia.org/2019/02/16/string-of-attacks-on-french- churches-includes-desecration-of-eucharist/)

<comment><USER97> This does not look like a reliable source of information at all.

<comment><USER96> > Although there was no immediate evidence of a connection, France has seen a > number of attacks on Catholic churches in the past year, including arson and > vandalism.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre- cat...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pariss-notre-cathedral-is- on-fire/2019/04/15/c487906e-5fa1-11e9-bf24-db4b9fb62aa2_story.html)

[https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches- fra...](https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees- altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800)</comment></comment></comment>


The Lawyer's Apprentice: How to Learn the Law Without Law School - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/how-to-learn-the-law-without-law-school.html <comment><USER2> I think people don't really understand the dynamics of the situation:

> Without loans to pay back, she argues, lawyers won't have to chase big > paychecks or prestige with corporate clients and could instead work in > nonprofit, environmental and community law.

It's easier to get a job with a big paycheck at firm representing corporate clients than it is to get work at a nonprofit, environmental organization, or community organization with a small paycheck. The idea that graduates are shunning this sort of work in order to pursue big paychecks to pay off their law school debt is totally detached from reality. Public service jobs paying $40-60k/year are insanely competitive, and attract the top candidates that could easily get a job at a large firm if they wanted one.

The basic problem is that these clients couldn't even afford a paralegal without donor funding, and that's a limited resource. There's a fundamental barrier at issue. For something to be affordable to the masses, it must be mass-produced. But legal services are by their nature individualized. Some inner city kid gets thrown in jail, some old lady gets kicked out of her apartment, some worker loses a hand because his employer cheaped out on safety equipment: what can you mass-produce to help these people?

<comment><USER3> This is also compounded by the fact that, IIRC in some states and munis, the ultimate NGO job, public prosecutor, obsolves you of law school debt after a 5-10 year stint.

I have heard these are super difficult to get, and it is considered more prestigious in some circles than the high paycheck jobs.

<comment><AUTHOR> Public prosecutors who become District / State Attorneys and acquire a high- profile can also go on to become Governor of the state [0]. Governors then get a chance to run for President. After retirement as President, you can pretty much write your own paycheck.

The man to keep an eye on at the moment is Preet Bharara, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York [1], who has taken on New York Governor Andrew Cuomo in a dogfight just 3 months before Cuomo seeks re-election [2]. Cuomo himself was a assistant district attorney in New York City before running for Governor [4].

[0] [http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/ljs201...](http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/ljs2010042201/)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preet_Bharara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preet_Bharara)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/nyregion/cuomo- responding-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/01/nyregion/cuomo-responding- to-us-attorney-seeks-to-justify-recent-contacts-with-corruption-panel.html)

[4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cuomo)

<comment><USER4> Ipso facto, public prosecution is a good career choice, since you can become President. _headdesk_

<comment><AUTHOR> My point is that for an ambitious and talented person, public prosecution can become the first step on a long ladder to success in public service, which compensates for the lack of an immediate big paycheck at a private law firm. You could stop banging your head, look around you and count how many Presidents were Governors earlier and public prosecutors even earlier than that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I looked into doing this a few years back. Apprenticeship, or "reading the law," used to be a very common method of becoming an attorney.[0] However, state bar regulations standardization have removed this option in all but a few states. Which, quite frankly, is a shame. There are paralegals, clerks, etc. that could easily pass the bar.

The states' that did away with such programs should reconsider, and the states that allow reading the law should loosen their "in-office" training requirements, primarily by allowing remote work.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_law)

EDIT: @Zany: Right, so test them using the bar.

<comment><USER6> I don't disagree with you, but a paralegal working in criminal law for the past 20 years may not be up to snuff on probate or tax law.

I think the solution is to drastically scale back the number of newly minted JDs (there's a vast oversupply of lawyers) as well at the same time reduce law school to 2 years.

<comment><USER7> How do you scale back the number of newly minted JDs? Do you prevent some capable people who want to be lawyers, from becoming lawyers?

Do you support the taxi medallion system, on the basis that it prevents there from being too many taxis?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It is disconcerting how difficult we've made it in America to practice law. The law is the cornerstone of our nation. It protects our rights. It compels behavior. It is how we as a nation formally decide allowed and prohibited behavior. And yet, you cannot professionally participate in the core of this system without years of school (or perhaps a long apprenticeship). This strikes me as a classic case of using licensing to keep out competition and keep wages high. Imagine how much worse off we'd be as a society if we required a similar system for professionally developing software.

<comment><USER9> There is no shortage of lawyers in usa. America produce so many lawyers, that they have trouble to find work. Plus, there is no country in a world where law practice does not require years of study.

<comment><USER10> >>Plus, there is no country in a world where law practice does not require years of study.

No, but there are many countries where getting a law degree(or any degree for that matter) doesn't cost you a dime, where you get out of uni with zero debt, not crippling few hundred thousand dollars to pay off.

<comment><USER9> No arguing with that, really. You are right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> One time on "What's my Line?", a "federal prosecuting attorney" came on the show (see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXjD7cMVJKg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXjD7cMVJKg)) and was asked if you needed to be a college graduate to have the job she has. She answered "not necessarily". This is why, but after a conference with the host, the answer got changed to yes.

</comment><comment><USER12> I think there may be a large pool of ex-prisoners who know the law very well. Many have worked as jailhouse lawyers, either on their own case, or fighting cases for others, for years, and have a very good real-world understanding of criminal law and sentencing. Many of them are good enough to write legal pleadings. The problem is, having a conviction, it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to become a lawyer in the US. The best they can hope for is to become a paralegal or research assistant.

</comment><comment><USER13> It's interesting how rare it is. Apparently an average of two people a year pass the bar via this route in California.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> A friend of mine just appeared for his New York Bar exam. He studied law full time at Columbia and was a top student there. He still spent 12-14 hours a day for 2 months preparing for bar exam because they don't teach you enough in law college to pass the bar exam.

[Edit: Changed Princeton to Columbia.]

<comment><USER5> Princeton doesn't have a law school. Maybe you're thinking of Columbia or Harvard?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, you're right - it was Columbia. Sorry.

<comment><USER5> No worries, mate :) My sister does have a fake "Princeton Law" shirt though.

You're also right about the bar. Everyone I know from top-tier law schools down to those at the lowest rung schools spent an extra several months at least in week-long marathon bar study sessions.

Craziness, you would think passing the bar is something that ought to be taught in law school, not self-(re)learned prior to the test.

<comment><USER9> It is not self learned prior test. If you or I wanted to pass the bar, no way we could do it with just a few months of self study. It is years before that made them able to pass the bar with just a two months of learning.

Theoretically, school could organize two months of sychronized revising and cramming, but I think that self revising is more effective at that age and skills level.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> For people interested in learning more about the law without going to law school, The Illustrated Guide to the Law ([http://lawcomic.net/](http://lawcomic.net/)) is a great resource. It is drawn by a former NYC prosecutor and current defense attorney. He's gone through the intro to criminal law and is on criminal procedure, specifically the 5th amendment implications for custodial interrogation.

He seems to be having server issues right now though :/ [http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/page/5](http://thecriminallawyer.tumblr.com/page/5) has some of his sketches though.

</comment><comment><USER15> There are people in the tech community doing this. One of the co-founders of LegalZoom apprenticed under their GC, and our CTO (at Judicata) is apprenticing under a member of our legal team.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting. Did either clear their bar exam?

<comment><USER15> Eddie Hartman at LegalZoom did. Adam Hahn (my co-founder and CTO) is nearing the end of his first year and should. We have a tradition of doing Bar Exam questions at lunch and so he's got a lot of practice!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Even kids who go to law school don't learn how to practice until they arrive at a firm, so this is not an obviously inferior method of training.

If you aspire to BigLaw this will never get you there, but if you want to be a consumer-facing plaintiffs' lawyer (where the reality is that well-executed advertising probably beats a stellar education anyway) this might be a wise move.

</comment><comment><USER17> No reason it can't be done. Many self represented litigants are very capable and only learn what they need by reading case law online. It's much easier now than it was a hundred years ago because there's so much free legal commentary online.

<comment><USER17> I also had a friend who learned the law this way in Winnipeg Canada for two years before "dropping out" to go into entertainment. The information he acquired during the two years ( during which time he was also paid) helped him during his subsequent and very successful career and there was no shame in dropping out,nor risk.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> it takes a minimum of seven years post secondary education to qualify as a lawyer in the us, and then you need to take the bar exam. contrast this with the uk system, where you either take an llb (perfect equivalent of a jd) as an undergraduate or a one year conversion course if you have an unrelated degree, and then a further year for the legal practice course.

there is afaik no real preference for students with an llb - there is no pretence that a further two years of case reading (and drinking) has much professional value

<comment><USER7> IIRC it takes 6-7 years to become a lawyer in the UK.

\- 3 years undergrad law degree (or 3 year unrelated undergrad plus 1 year law conversion)

\- 1 year legal practice course

\- 2 years traineeship (working at a law firm) before the final exam to be a solicitor

The process for a barrister is similar but not the same. I don't know what the restrictions are on what barristers can do that solicitors can't, and vice versa.

<comment><USER19> Worth pointing at that there isn't a single legal system in the UK - Scotland's system is quite different at all levels from England & Wales (I have no idea about NI).

In Scotland it is 4 years for an LLB (or 2 if you already have another degree), 1 year legal practice and 2 years traineeship - but there is no "final exam". Trainees can start appearing in court at a low level after 1 year. Fully qualified solicitors can appear in Sheriff Court. More serious stuff is dealt with in the Court of Session (civil) and High Court (criminal) - where you need to be an Advocate to appear - the Scots equivalent of barristers. You can be dual qualified as a solicitor and an advocate, although this is fairly rare. Advocates can't represent clients directly, only act on the instructions of solicitors, and solicitors can't appear in the higher courts.

Qualifying as an advocate requires passing exams and then doing a period of devilling to qualified advocates (usually senior non-QCs) - during this time you are an "Advocates Devil" ;-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Glad I decided not to go to law school!</comment>


Functional Python Made Easy - <AUTHOR> http://hackflow.com/blog/2013/10/13/functional-python-made-easy/

<comment><USER2> What Python really needs to be more useful as a "functional language" is a consistent way to define algebraic data types and to perform pattern matching.

This is the closest thing i found for that: [https://github.com/lihaoyi/macropy](https://github.com/lihaoyi/macropy)

<comment><USER3> Forgive me if this is a silly question -- I'm an F# developer by trade, and I only know a bit of Python -- but why would you rather add a bunch of features common to strongly+statically-typed functional programming languages to Python instead of simply writing your code in a language which already has support for such features?

For example, you could write code you want to use GADTs and pattern-matching for in Haskell, then create a Python wrapper for scripting purposes. I understand that having your solution written in two languages generally requires more effort to keep things working, and it's more difficult to find qualified developers to hire. To me, it just seems like it would make more sense to use each language's strengths where you need them instead of trying to graft all the features you could ever want into a single language (which, IMO, is basically what C++ does, to it's detriment).

<comment><USER4> > F# developer by trade

I thought F# was quite a niche language and there weren't any "F# developers", just .NET/C# that also know some F#. How did you end up on this career path?

About grafting features onto Python: most Python guys come from the Linux land and have quite a problem with using a .NET/Mono language, and Haskell is/seems too intimidating and complex. Most also seem to dislike/fear the JVM. So there's only OCaml left and this is even more of a "niche language" than F#. Only viable option is extending Python, unfortunately Python is such a pain in the ass to properly extend so people just make libraries to "ease the pain".

<comment><USER3> That was true some years back before F# was released as a "first-class" language (F# 2.0 in VS2010), and the F# community is still (and probably always will be) dwarfed by the sheer number of C# programmers in the world. On the upside, the F# community has grown quite a lot in the last year; there's even an official F# Foundation now: [http://fsharp.org](http://fsharp.org)

I ended up working with F# through my previous job; I founded a startup whose product as a .NET -> GPU JIT compiler. The idea was similar to what Xamarin is doing now with their C# (and now F#!) tools for building iOS and Android apps, in that we aimed to make GPU programming accessible to the everyday programmer.

I wrote the first version of our product in C#; it was around 30KLoC, still missing quite a lot of functionality, and buggier than I was really happy with. I'd heard that F# was based on ML, and that ML was designed for work like building compilers and theorem provers, so I decided to take the plunge and learn it. It was a little difficult to wrap my head around at first, but I stuck to it, and I ported+simplified our original C# codebase to F# within a couple of months, ending up with ~5KLoC and a new version of our product which was much faster, had fewer bugs, and overall easier to maintain than before. It sounds a little cheesy, but making the jump to F# and putting in the effort to learn it _really_ well was one of the best career decisions I've ever made, and I haven't regretted it for a second. It's made me a much stronger developer overall.

I think you're spot on about extending Python with libraries to "ease the pain". As I've said before, Python is quite a good, useful language; however, it seems like a good chunk of the core "Python" libraries are actually C libraries designed for use with a Python wrapper.

And sure, Haskell can be a bit obtuse at first, but it's really not too bad if you actually take the time to learn it. I think the real problem is that "senior" developers get comfortable in whatever language they use day-to-day for a long time, then they try Haskell -- which is probably much different than other languages they've used before -- and since they don't immediately get it, they assume it's the language's fault and give up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Guido brought up Python functional programming during the 2012 PyCon keynote: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRMq2Ioxsc#t=44m25s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRMq2Ioxsc#t=44m25s)

</comment><comment><USER6> I gave a talk at PyOhio this year that covers this topic. There are some errors in the presentation -it was the first time I gave it- but if you are looking for some more information on it check it out.

[http://www.spkrbar.com/talk/11](http://www.spkrbar.com/talk/11)

</comment><comment><USER7> This is also helpful - [http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/functional.html](http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/functional.html)

</comment><comment><USER8> I really like how re_find gives you the actual regex match right off the bat, instead of having to go through match_result.groups()!

<comment><USER9> Using groups lets you pull out parts of a match more easily. Perhaps it's a bit of a corner case, but for parsing logs, I find it invaluable.

<comment><AUTHOR> re_find returns tuple of all captures if there are more than one. See parse ini example

<comment><USER9> That's definitely a bonus. But in that case, what about the "entire line" match, that you would get from match.groups(0)?

And if the captures are named? Is there a performance penalty for always using search instead of match? Can I pass re.* flags to alter the behavior of the engine? can I pre-compile regexes that I use frequently?

Please don't get me wrong; I appreciate the effort that went into this, but there appears to be a lot of flexibility (and performance) lost in the re_find function.

This is cool,

        dict(imap(re_finder('(\w+)=(\w+)'), ini.splitlines()))

But this would beat the pants off it in performance (and is, to my eyes, more readable/equally functonal).

        dict((line.split('=') for line in ini if '=' in line))

<comment><AUTHOR> You can pass flags and compiled regular expression. Pattern with named captures causes re_find to return dict.

You won't get entire match if you have several captures, but you can add a pair of parentheses around your regexp to circumvent this limitation.

As you can see, plenty of flexibility here. Also, you can fallback to naked re once or twice a year, not that much trouble.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Very neat, and great examples. I do a lot of data manipulation myself, and could see this being very helpful/useful.

</comment><comment><USER11> neat, i do a lot of FP idioms in my code.

another option i frequently borrow from is google's "goopy": [http://goog- goopy.sourceforge.net/goopy.functional.html](http://goog- goopy.sourceforge.net/goopy.functional.html)

</comment><comment><USER12> btw, Python 3.3 introduced ChainMap for "merging" dicts.

[http://docs.python.org/dev/library/collections#collections.C...](http://docs.python.org/dev/library/collections#collections.ChainMap)</comment>


Lunatic Python - <AUTHOR> http://labix.org/lunatic-python <comment><AUTHOR> This isn't mine (so no Show HN); I found it a long time ago and just found it again by going through my backlog.

Also of interest: "Simple Lua-Python Parser" for Lua structure deserialization: [https://github.com/SirAnthony/slpp](https://github.com/SirAnthony/slpp)

</comment><comment><USER2> A fork on Github that claims Python 2.7 and Lua 5.1 compatibility: [https://github.com/bastibe/lunatic- python](https://github.com/bastibe/lunatic-python)</comment>


EU to Declare Cyber-Attacks "Act of War" - <AUTHOR> https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/eu-to-declare-cyber-attacks-act-of <comment><AUTHOR> "member states may respond to online attacks with conventional weapons..."

yikes</comment>


Reqiured Background Check to enter public school - <AUTHOR> This year the public schools in my area have started requiring all visitors drivers license be scanned with a "SafeVisitor" system before being allowed access to any school. This system runs some type of background check and probably logs your access to the building. As a bit of a privacy and civil liberty nut, this strikes me as over the top and perhaps illegal. Do schools have the right to run a background check without my permission to gain access to my child at school? I am fine with showing my ID to a human to verify my identity. Just wondering the legality of this. I know this is not a legal forum, so if there's a better place to ask let me know.
note: this is not for volunteers (they have a different check).
http://www.safevisitorsolutions.com/safevisitor/ <comment><USER2> [http://www.colorincolorado.org/article/your-rights-parent- pu...](http://www.colorincolorado.org/article/your-rights-parent-public- school-student) makes it seem like there is a US law which prohibits a school from asking for an ID. ("The people who work at the school are not allowed to ask parents to show an ID or to give a social security number. You don't have to answer questions about your immigration status or your child's.")

[http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2014/04/aclu_takes_so...](http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2014/04/aclu_takes_south_jersy_schools_to_task_over_registration_policies.html) says that ID isn't required to enroll a student into the school district. More specifically:

> In the letter to various school districts, Shalom cites the 1982 United > States Supreme Court case Plyler v. Doe, which decided that undocumented > children living in this country cannot be precluded from public elementary > and secondary schools because of immigration status.

> ... "We were surprised by the number and broad range of school districts > with restrictive, discriminatory enrollment policies," said Jeanne LoCicero, > deputy legal director of the state ACLU. "These policies exist in almost > every county, from the poorest cities to the wealthiest suburbs, and > everywhere in between. Clearly, the scale of this problem demands serious > action, and serious self-examination among New Jersey school districts."

You can ask what their policy is for undocumented people or those without id.

If they ask "aren't you a US citizen?" you can say "you are not legally required to know that."

However, while I suspect that may let you pick up your child, meet the teacher, and attend PTA meetings, I don't know if you might not be allowed to chaperone or volunteer.

From one of Skenazy's posts (who schoen mentioned), that may require background checks, as in [http://www.freerangekids.com/no-mam-you-may-not- chaperone-yo...](http://www.freerangekids.com/no-mam-you-may-not-chaperone- your-sons-field-trip-without-a-background-check/) .

<comment><AUTHOR> from this article: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/08/us/schools-immigration- checks/](http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/08/us/schools-immigration-checks/)

> "They may ask for a parent's driver's license. But only to establish > residency, not to determine legal immigration status, the guidelines say."

It looks like they can ask for proof of residency, but not immigration status.

<comment><USER2> In case it wasn't clear, "residency" here means residency in the district, not residency in the US.

Nor is a license required for that proof. For example, [http://www.browardschools.com/Parents-Students/Parent- Studen...](http://www.browardschools.com/Parents-Students/Parent-Student- Pages/Register-My-Child-In-School) shows that a Notarized lease agreement and a utility bill suffice for that county.

For that matter, [https://www.hcps.org/parents/proofofresidency.aspx](https://www.hcps.org/parents/proofofresidency.aspx) says a driver's license is not acceptable as proof of residency.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right. What's interesting here (in Indiana -- and probably a lot of states) is that you can't get state ID without proof of being a US Citizen or proper immigration status. So, asking for a state id is the equivalent of asking about citizenship/immigration status.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Maybe ask the local ACLU affiliate, or I think there's a forum of some sort run by Lenore Skenazy of Free Range Kids fame (who is generally critical of recent restrictions placed on kids and adults in the name of children's safety).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the info, I haven't heard of Lenore Skenazy.</comment></comment>


Myth of Dying Programming Language and Framework - <AUTHOR> https://blog.wekan.team/2018/05/myth-of-dying-programming-language-and-framework/index.html <comment><USER2> The author writes "Programming language dies, when somebody deletes all code and documentation files and backups of files, books, papers etc from everywhere in the world."

I disagree. That's not the definition that people use when they say that a human language is dead, and it shouldn't be the definition people use when describing a computer language.

Latin is a dead language. That doesn't mean that no one speaks it, nor does it mean that no literature is available in Latin. It's still an official language of the Vatican. There's also Nuntii Latini, a news service which broadcasts in Latin. They've had to make up vocabulary for concepts which didn't exist 2,000 years ago.

But Latin is still a dead language.

Similarly, PL/I is a dead computer language. Sure, there's still support for it ([https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi- bin/ssialias?subtype=c...](https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi- bin/ssialias?subtype=ca&infotype=an&supplier=897&letternum=ENUS217-352) ). But it's a dead language.

So is SNOBOL and its many variants.

So is TRAC, despite the many fans who learned about it through Nelson's 1974 book "Computer Lib".

Hieroglyphic Egyptian is a dead language, even though people can read and write it.

So is cgi-lib.pl, which was the most popular web framework back when Perl4 ruled the web. (I checked; last update was 19 years ago.)</comment>


At Home 250 Miles Above Earth - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443294904578052540416325934.html

<comment><USER2> 2.5 Billion - if you think about it there are individuals who could come up with that money.

How long before the first decides that he wants his own space station to visit whenever he wants?

 _btw: What about laws up there? :D_

<comment><USER3> It's the Wild West up there, mate.

</comment></comment><comment> momma-joe spaceville? ha!</comment>


On-the-fly disk volume encryption with plausible deniability - <AUTHOR> http://www.truecrypt.org/

<comment><USER2> What's new about this? I think I'm missing something for this submission.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't know if there's anything new about it, but I have not seen disk encryption with _plausible deniability_ before. From my point of this, this is new. This should be (could be) an important building block of anonymizing projects like Tor and Tonika.

<comment><USER2> I just sort of think it's fairly well known around here, but I could be wrong.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I don't think there's anything new, but it's a fantastic product.</comment>


Fact-Checking 3 Minutes And 37 Seconds Of The WWDC14 Keynote - <AUTHOR> http://reckoner.com.au/2014/06/fact-checking-3-minutes-and-37-seconds-of-the-wwdc14-keynote/

<comment><USER2> Interesting and seemingly well researched article. That said, there are a handful of things are are phandroidy about it, perhaps too much so.

1\. Android is fragmented as ever OEM has their own flavour and most devices do not get upgraded to the latest version by the OEMs. This is a problem for consumers and developers.

2\. High-end premium marketshare is owned by Apple.

3\. Most instanced of malware targeting iOS is targeting jailbroken devices. Android malware doesn't seem to care whether you rooted your device or not.

4\. App quality on Andoird still suffers, more so in some categories than others. It feels that developers feel/think that Android users do not expect as much polish as iOS users since they are more used to sub par apps.

<comment><USER3> the fragmentation and lack of updates from OEMs was the same thing that frustrated me about WinCE and older phones like the ericsson T68. They would completely abandon the devices that were released and you had to do all these hacks to make the newest firmware work. Often times it worked better because it didn't have all that carrier BS on it, but was a major hassle to get installed.

<comment><USER4> iOS is also fragmented. I know many people with iphone 3gs's or the original ipads and are stuck on a previous version of ios.

(one could argue they need to upgrade devices -- well, the same can be argued for android users)

So, both sides of the fence or fragmented.

<comment><USER5> There are _very_ different degrees of fragmentation. An iPhone 3gs is 5 years old (launched in June 2009) and supported the newest version of iOS for more than 4 years (until iOS 7 launched in September 2013).

Contrast that with Google's Nexus One, which kicked off their Nexus program of well supported phones. It launched in March 2010 with Android 2.1, and got its last update to Android 2.3.6 in September 2011.

So for the iPhone: 4 years of support, and that's a typical experience.

For Android: 1.5 years of support, and that's on a _good_ example with support managed directly by Google as part of their "look we can do long term support" program.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> WWDC is marketing, nothing else. We all know that on 'marketing mode' many companies like to tell _their_ story. The same happens in I/O, and tonnes of other developers conferences.

I wouldn't look into it any further, if not we can expect dozens of 'Fact- Checking' posts on HN.

<comment><USER7> > [It's fine. And besides, everyone else is doing it.]

Fact-checking posts that cite their sources and speak calmly about relevant topics are useful.

<comment><USER8> I totally agree with this, I like seeing these posts and being aware of the ways in which Apple is twisting the truth to serve their marketing; it's interesting to see the process behind the presentation, but there seems to be a disproportionate amount of examination around Apple keynotes, and never say Google ones, and I'd love to see the spin others put on their presentations.

<comment><USER9> As the author of this piece, I'd be happy to look at doing something similar for Google I/O if the structure of the presentation lends itself to such an article.

Appreciate the kind words and nudge in the direction of doing more.

<comment><USER8> I'd love to see, as I say there seems to be a lot of work to show exactly how Apple is twisting things compared to others, I'd love to see if that was because Apple is a lot worse for that or if people just don't examine their competitors. I remember sitting in I/O quite interested, but feeling a few bits were not more than marketing.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: De-identifying data without destroying quality - <AUTHOR> We are exploring how to aggregate significant amount of data from different clients to use in a machine learning model.
The output of the model will be shared with all clients.
The clients require the model to see data that has been stripped of sensitive information. We could crudely just remove columns that we felt were sensitive but this would impact performance of the model.
Has anyone got experience or thoughts on how to approach this?
Any software / open-source on not that could help?
Txs MD <comment><USER2> Do you need the data to be anonymized or just de-identified?

I know this won't sit well with privacy minded folks, but if you just need the data de-identified and not anonymized, you could pick the fields that might contain sensitive data and do a character for character swap. This way you retain the information without storing the personal information in a raw form.

</comment><comment><USER3> What do you need to anonymize ? what type of system are you asking about ? do you need to comply with GDPR ?

names, addresses, id numbers or account numbers can be easily randomized. Dates and numbers (what kind of system is it?) are trickier since they are used in calculations. Finally the tricky part is making sure that the anonymized data still can't be tracked back to real entities.</comment>


Everything You Need to Know About Unicorn - <AUTHOR> http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2010/everything-you-need-to-know-about-unicorn/

<comment><USER2> Everything you need to know about Unicorn... except what on Earth is Unicorn! A one-line summary wouldn't have gone amiss.

<comment><USER3> I was thinking the exact same thing. I got through most of the first paragraph, then quickly scrolled down through the article looking for an obvious summary. No luck. I just went back and clicked the link to the Unicorn readme ( <http://unicorn.bogomips.org/> ) and _that_ had a decent summary at the top. Still, it would have been much better for this summary to have been in the article also. Perhaps they were expecting anyone who read the article to have already known what Unicorn was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> More documentation on Unicorn is always nice, since it feels a little sparse in places, and sometimes I'm left wondering whether I've overlooked something in my production setup.

Could have used a little more discussion on signals (e.g. USR2 for reloading code) or possibly other daemon control type issues, which I recall doing the most fiddling with.

I'd still like to hook Unicorn up to Munin or Nagios (for historical stats, not process monitoring), but haven't found any resources on the subject.

</comment><comment><USER5> > Down for Maintenance

I guess this proves that unicorns don't really exist.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ha!

It's back up, either way :p

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Nice. Also a discussion on Rainbows! would be very useful. Something that would cover in what cases its different types of concurrency can work, etc.</comment>


Mark Zuckerberg doesn't get newspapers - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/new-media/3ba7a5c19aa3

<comment><USER2> This article is completely off. It completely misconstrues "personalization" as limiting content to just what you are interested in. Facebook still lets you see what your friends are reading/sharing, thus giving you access to more content than just what you would normally consume.</comment>


Watch An iPad (And GoPro Camera) Survive A 100,000 Foot Drop - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/05/g-form-ipad-100000-foot-drop/

<comment><USER2> Wouldn't the iPad just hit terminal velocity pretty quickly, making most of the height of the drop relatively useless?

<comment><USER3> True. Doesn't necessarily make it less impressive if true :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The branches on the right disappear after the camera cuts away (I had to flip the image): <http://i.imgur.com/a9qbm.png>

<comment><USER5> If you watch it again you'll see he steps on the bush as he walks up pushing down and out of the frame.

<comment><USER4> Ah. You're right, I missed that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It looks like the GoPro and the remnants of the balloon helped it. The extra mass of the GroPro body allowed it to fall flat with the camera and ballon allowing it to spin on it's way down, like a maple seed. Also it looks like it landed on the aluminum side facing down with GroPro body hitting the ground first.

Still pretty cool though.

</comment><comment><USER7> I would guess this was faked. Look at the video a couple seconds after it lands - seems like there is somebody walking right nearby. Also something sounds off about sending an object up into the upper atmosphere and it landing only 70 yards away.

<comment><USER8> The 70 yards thing is entirely fishy. Compared to this video, where it dropped 20 miles away, yeah. I don't really believe it survived, and they replaced it with another.

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wtXquYhY7wo#t=377s)

<comment><USER9> To be fair, it looks as though the guy is just stepping out of a car/truck as he says that it is 70 yards away.

They probably just drove to a spot close to the signal of where the iPad landed and then started filming from there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't understand....what is the point of doing this?</comment>


Advice when mentally ill flock to your service? - <AUTHOR> I run a service that uses a mix of automation and manual help to deal with customer service issues (throwaway account). 97% of the time, things work really well, we have great customers, we're small and bootstrapped but growing and are very happy with the organization we're building.
But for whatever reason, we've become very popular on conspiracy theory websites, and maybe 3% of our customers ultimately end up using our service in a somewhat harassing way. We've modified our terms of service to ban a variety of forms of harassment, but it's often hard to weed out the problem users from legitimate ones until things get bad, and we're trying to come up with consistent policies of weeding out bad users rather than we-know-it-when-we-see-it.
For reference, these users are likely very mentally ill. The New York Times did a piece on the segment of the Internet that has found us:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/health/gang-stalking-targeted-individuals.html?_r=0
Anyone run into anything similar? Advice? <comment><USER2> I ran into something like this when a discussion board I ran attracted the wrong users and ended up having to close it down.

I would fight this hard, zero tolerance. Your policy should be "we know it when we see it, immediate removal, and it's not open for discussion". Don't try to come up with rules etc., because that will just open you up to infinite discussion. One things trolls are good at is sucking up your time.

In your shoes, I would be very though and never discuss your decisions. (aka we removed you, not going to discuss it.) NEVER EVER get into discussion with the 3%.

</comment><comment><USER3> Harassment can be flagged up either by the type language used or the repetition of an action.

It has to start with a manual we-know-it-when-we-see-it process. You collect data about the types of users that are using your service in a harassing way. Where they come from, how they use the service etc. Over time you will see patterns and trends that will likely lead to you being able to flag certain sign ups in that way. The more accurate it gets over time the less manual intervention you will need.

It maybe that certain referrers or keywords drive this type of traffic. Perhaps there are similarities in the first actions of this type of new user or the content that they create.

The only way to recognise it is to start gathering examples and learning from them.

</comment><comment><USER4> Regardless of the user-base, there will always be a small segment which accounts for the majority of your business's support costs ( filtering / banning / rate-limiting / etc ).

The best advice I can give you is that you have to treat every user as a good customer until proven otherwise. The last thing you want is false negatives affecting your revenue stream and alienating potential customers.

It's unfortunate you are experiencing issues. Do your best to keep internal metadata on every user you interact with. Document and tag all related support communications. Get a good CRM. Once you've collected a bit of data, look for common signs of a troubled user and see if you can make any changes to policy or software to prevent future issues.

</comment><comment><USER5> It would be nice if some sort of captcha could weed them out, but that sounds unlikely.

Is there any way of creating a hierarchy of users? Newbies would have probationary status and limited powers until promoted to standard level. You could also promote your best users to a higher level, and they could help police the probationary users.

If users are only dealing with your own staff, maybe an internal Reddit-style points scoring system would be a start. It might help if it made the "bad" users visible sooner.

But I expect you've already thought of these and similar ideas....

Thanks for the link: interesting story.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I think some kind of internal "meta moderation" may be the best way, similar to how some gaming services have tribunals. Appreciate the feedback and advice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hi, can you contact me or any way to contact you? I work improving userflows and solving issues, and would love to give it a shot.

For my contact info check my profile.

</comment><comment><USER7> I have no useful advice to offer for your troubling situation, but I wanted to comment and say that the NYTimes article you linked to is scary and fascinating. I know you weren't sharing it out of interest but out of illustration of your predicament. Still, thank you for sharing nonetheless.

</comment><comment><USER8> Can you add a request for some personal information during the sign up that a regular user wouldn't think twice about providing but your 3% would object to and bail out of your signup process?

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately, that would probably have the reverse effect: The 3% would put in way more work, while "good" customers would be more likely to abandon. The 3% are willing to endure endless tedium for their conspiracy theories.

<comment><USER9> The upside here is that you can blacklist based on some identifiable information as long as it can be easily confirmed.

I dealt with quite a few mentally ill antagonists when moderating Quora.

The best thing to do though is to let them use your service, but to shadow ban them as much as possible, and ideally make them think they aren't.

Feel free to contact me if you want to chat further.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't understand. It's your service. Just ban them or otherwise don't allow them to use it if they're more trouble than they're worth.

<comment><USER11> Saying "just ban them" is like when the MPAA / RIAA says that Google should somehow magically remove all copyright infringing links from its search results.

Doing it manually doesn't scale.

So how do you do it with automation?

How can automation recognize who the bad users are in order to "just ban them" ?

<comment><USER10> OP doesn't give enough specifics to speculate regarding automation, other than _mumble mumble machine learning_.

How about investigating reports of abuse as they're surfaced, like most companies do?</comment></comment></comment>


Why Businesses Can't Stand Free Markets: Veronique de Rugy - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-12-23/why-businesses-can-t-stand-free-markets-veronique-de-rugy.html <comment><AUTHOR> The article is right. In a perfect market the producer surplus is zero. Prices will equal production costs.</comment>


How To Make 1 to 30,000 Virtual Reality Cardboard Headsets an Hour - <AUTHOR> http://www.dodocase.com/blogs/dodo-blog/14801205-how-to-make-1-to-30-000-virtual-reality-cardboard-headsets-an-hour <comment><USER2> FYI if you live in China, you can buy a kit (including machine-cut cardboard, velcro and lenses) for <50 RMB ($8). Magnets and NFC can be bought cheaply from other taobao sellers.

I made one by hand myself, and bought kits from two different vendors.

\- the one I cut myself works, but it looks like trash and is not durable. Also, the lenses I used distort too much

\- the one from the first vendor is great. The design has been modified so that the lens holes are a little wider, to accommodate the wider lenses supplied: [http://tb.cn/qdMexXy](http://tb.cn/qdMexXy)

\- the one from the second vendor was almost as good, but the doesn't have the slightly wider lenses/holes

If you're using an iPhone, I recommend the app '3dtube' for watching 3D videos. Also, search the App Store for 'durovis' to find other compatible apps.

<comment><USER3> Thank you very much for posting to vendor. Could you also post links and/or names to other parts? That way it will be complete information

<comment><USER2> Sure. I didn't buy any NFC tags, but used these magnets:

\- Ring magnet 20mm x 4mm: [http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=23637980267](http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=23637980267)

\- Ceramic magnet 20mm x 3mm: [http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18786950677](http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18786950677)

I haven't bought an NFC, but this might work: [http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=38598120822](http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=38598120822)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting. Seems like the flat die (spoiler: works like a cookie cutter) would work fine on a much smaller scale. For example, you could manually press it down on a piece of cardboard, maybe with a lever action. A cursory search seems to indicate such contraptions exist.

Seems like that ought to get you up to laser cutter speeds (3 mins/part) with a much smaller investment.

PS - not usually one to complain about this, but the contrast of the font on that page is ridiculous.

</comment><comment><USER5> $14 & free shipping (no ratings yet): [http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Newest- DIY-Google-Cardboard-V...](http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Newest-DIY-Google- Cardboard-Virtual-reality-mobile-phone-glasses-with-NFC-TAG/1961979491.html) Lots more here: [http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=cardboard+goo...](http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=cardboard+google&catId=&initiative_id=SB_20140715062011) and then there is this? [http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Google-Cardboard- Virtual-real...](http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Google-Cardboard-Virtual- reality-Mobile-stereoscopic-3D-movie-game-wearing-glasses/1971556452.html)

</comment><comment><USER6> I got to try one of these out at a wedding last weekend, it was a ton of fun and well worth the price. Going to have to buy one of my own to play around with.

</comment><comment><USER7> It is cool that somebody is doing this. I wouldn't mind cutting and making one for my own as a weekend project though. The lenses cost $3-$4, you can get them from your local toy store packaged inside toy binoculars.

</comment><comment><USER8> These guys did well moving quick to capitalize on this.

Saw several ads for it, probably sold quite well; getting to use 'Google' in your product's title definitely lends it some extra credibility too.

</comment><comment><USER9> I would love to know the unit cost for each method.</comment>


Secret files on jets and navy ships stolen in 'extensive and extreme' hack - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/oct/12/secret-files-on-jets-and-navy-ships-stolen-in-extensive-and-extreme-hack <comment><USER2> Sensationalist. "Christopher Pyne ... stressed the stolen information was commercially sensitive rather than "classified" military information.</comment>