Rise and fall of JVM languages - <AUTHOR> https://blog.frankel.ch/rise-fall-jvm-languages/#gsc.tab=0 <comment><USER3> If the language designers keep their heads, Kotlin will slowly eat away at Java. Java itself is never going away: it's a Fortran or Cobol situation, only maybe three or four orders of magnitudes bigger.

Xtend never was alive, and it's clear Ceylon has lost at this point, even though it is arguably better designed than Kotlin. However, they made some bad syntactic decisions (not shedding enough of the Java verbosity, introducing new weird keywords), and when you're doing run the mill Java-like programming, it's just more gratifying to write/read Kotlin code.

Scala's development is somewhat unpredictable, but I think it's fair to say it's lineage is not going away either. New compilers are being developed by the original team (Dotty) and by Twitter (reasonable scala) with very different objectives. Currently, there simply aren't any many contenders in Scala's niche (very powerful statically typed programming languages with a pragmatic bend, i.e. not Haskell). C++ could fit the bill but pushes memory management and Cthulhu on you. The ML family could also fit the bill, but lacks momentum/hype. However Facebook is spearheading a revival with Reason ML. Scala's big trump card is the Java library ecosystem.

<comment><USER4> Kotlin can never replace Java as long as the JVM is relevant.

This is like trying to replace C on UNIX, C# on .NET, Erlang on BEAM, or JavaScript on the browser.

<comment><USER3> Kotlin is essentially Java with some sugar sprinkled on top. That's its strength: the semantics & the concepts are the same.

I also never said Kotlin will replace Java, but that it will gradually grow to the detriment of Java, which is still here to stay.

<comment><USER4> I don't believe Kotlin will get much strong outside Android.

In all these years of alternative languages customers still don't allow us to use anything other than plain Java.

<comment><USER5> I have to wonder what the distribution is of people using java is. You seem to be a freelancer or independent agency for contract. I can easily see a bunch of big corps moving from Java to Kotlin though. Especially with an in via android, why not using Kotlin across the board. It will definitely be a gradual thing, if it will be thing. Kotlin just seems to be a very, very pragmatic enhanced version of Java.

<comment><USER4> Yep, enterprise consulting for Fortune-500, DAX level companies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> No mention of Clojure? In the comments the author says that since it was a _functional_ JVM language, he never considered it. OK.

<comment><USER7> He only considers statically typed languages to be worthy. He doesn't spend much time on Groovy, writing it off as a scripting language. That is my take on why he left it out.

<comment><USER8> There is a comment from the author that states he hasn't mentioned Clojure because it's FP language. He doesn't go into details bit it looks like he just skipped everything that doesn't support class based OOP. Scala has this feature.

<comment><USER9> Clojure supports this though.

And given that removing the FP nature of Scala pretty much hamstrings its value proposition, I can see why he'd be dismissive of it on those grounds.

<comment><USER8> Clojure supports class based OOP? Never heard of it. Could you give me a link to the relevant documentation page?

<comment><USER10> Not really a OOP programmer, but I think the following cover some reasonable subset of OOP:

[https://clojure.org/reference/multimethods](https://clojure.org/reference/multimethods)

[https://clojure.org/reference/protocols](https://clojure.org/reference/protocols)

<comment><USER11> That's selling Clojure a little short. Clojure has full Java interop via reify, proxy, gen-class, deftype and definterface.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This article is very poorly thought out. First and foremost it talks about the __fall__ of JVM languages yet it forecasts good things for all of those languages. The author also failed to check out things like the TIOBE index where Java is still at the top. Not to mention that Clojure hasn't even been mentioned which is a __huge__ letdown since Clojure is the only pure functional language which is native to the JVM.

<comment><USER13> I agree. There are many points and oddities in this article that make it a poor source of information on the topic. Actually, not just a poor source, a misleading one.

<comment><USER14> The title is clickbaity, that's all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Java, the only language where you can consistently get work by just showing up to an interview, is not falling at all.

If anything, it will stay here for decades thanks to so many enterprise and massive projects relying on it.

</comment><comment><USER15> I remember reading so many headlines like "email is dead" over the years. Email is not dead according to every pop-over i see but all those 'replacements' are.

There are very, very few technologies that are 'winners' (pick your own meaning) in the long run. Choose wisely.

</comment><comment><USER16> > I started developing in Java, late 2001. At that time, Java was really cool.

As someone who was there in 2001, I just have to say: Java was never cool, and especially not at that time. It was bloated and ugly and slow, the GC was terrible, applets were simply the worst, the UI toolkits available looked horrible on every single platform. There were no decent IDEs or editors and the language was if possible even more verbose and circumspect back then.

<comment><USER17> The Java servlet API and ecosystem was quite cool at least in the early years, IMO. Very simple and elegant model, and I did some commercial work with Java servlets. There were 3-rd-party servlet engines (before they started calling them fancier names like containers after J2EE v1 started :), like LiteWebServer and JRun (good fun using them), apart from the Sun reference implementation and and more heavyweight ones like Tomcat which came a bit later, IIRC. I remember following the Tomcat mailing list for some time, and there was intense activity on it for a long time. Also used Tomcat and JBoss later in a few projects. I sometimes mention Jason Hunter's O'Reilly book "Java Servlet Programming" (1st edition) as one of the best programming books I've read, both for the content and the quality of the writing and the code examples.

J2EE v1 was slow and considered by many to be over-engineered (probably why slow). Used it in one project but didn't like it. I've heard that after v3 or so (from then called JEE) it became lighter and better. Maybe others can comment on that. And from some time there have been other options like Spring, etc. Found Spring rather complex too on an initial look.

What do people on here like using for Java web apps these days (those who do use it)? Heard of Wicket and Play, I know there must be others.

<comment><USER18> I've been using play + java 8 for the past two years. Have been quite happy with it. I did php and node.js before, and I can't say I'm missing anything in particular from those ecosystems. Build times could be a tad better, and some aspects could use more documentation, but the code is easy to write and maintain and the app is blazing fast and easy to deploy. I've gotten the same positive feedback from other web devs that joined my team. They all like it.

<comment><USER17> Thanks for the info. Might check out Play. Yes, Java performance is fast. I had read that Sun had put millions of dollars into making it fast [1], hiring very qualified people to work on the compiler, the JIT engine, etc., over a period of many years. And the speed difference between early and later Java versions was perceptible.

[1] Apart from the millions they also put into marketing Java to enterprises. And that worked, as we know. It became huge in the enterprise and still is.

<comment><USER11> I believe Kotlin code runs close to Java speed which is another reason it might catch on.

<comment><USER17> Good point. Looking a bit like Kotlin is worth checking out, based on the comments in this thread, and also that other one some days ago, which was triggered by Steve Yegge's post about it. The only one drawback I can think of as of now, is that it is only being developed by one company - <USER2> (unless it is open source and allows and has contributors, which I have not checked).

Update: I checked, it is open source:

>In February 2012, JetBrains open sourced the project under the Apache 2 license

from:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin_(programming_language)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotlin_\(programming_language\))

<comment><USER11> These days a new language which isn't open source wouldn't have much of a chance, I reckon.

<comment><USER17> Question is are you using the term open source strictly as it is meant, i.e. the source is available, or as some use it, loosely, to mean both open source and free (as in beer)? [1]

[1] I ask that because all 4 possible combinations of open/closed source and paid/free software exist. But "open source" is often used loosely by people to mean both open source and free as in beer, including by well-known tech journalists or authors who should know better.

I think even closed source languages which are paid, have a chance, just maybe not very big a one. But that is not a problem as such. Not everyone is aiming to be a unicorn - more like the opposite. [ This idea of "go big or go home" (propounded by VC's) is deleterious to the public health (TM:) ] But the chance is probably big enough for a company or three (for that language) to live on - provided they get their act right (enough) on all fronts, including tech and marketing. And even big enough for an ecosystem to build around them. Such things still exist today, just that they are not so much talked/written about as much as open source and the latest "hot" trends are. Blame the media and the cool kids for that.

And I say this as a strong (though not exclusive) proponent, user and somewhat of a practitioner of open source.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I wish .net CLR would take its place instead. For one thing, as strange as that may sound, I trust today's MS more than I trust Oracle. For another, CLR as of 12 years ago (not to mention now) was already better suited for programming language development than JVM ever will be, owing to having less baggage and reified generic types support built in from the start.

</comment><comment><USER20> You forget scala-native project: [https://github.com/scala-native/scala- native](https://github.com/scala-native/scala-native) It seems to have major traction looking at contributions trend. Together with scala.js it open up the scala language to three different outputs: native (LLVM), js and JVM. Great strategy in my opinion.

<comment><USER21> How does it compare to Kotlin native/JS outputs?

<comment><USER22> In terms of what?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm surprised to see that Groovy slightly beats Kotlin in on that graph. I really underestimated Groovy popularity, or overestimated Kotlin.

I've yet to work with Kotlin but did like Groovy some years ago. Never used it professionaly though, only for play-projects.

<comment><USER24> groovy is great. It doesn't have much marketing behind it, so it's seems to be a bit of a quiet achiever. But for dsl makin', groovy is such a good language.!

<comment><USER25> We use Groovy in production, working with SQL, Transactions or JSON is much easier than Java. Meta programming and Traits are other advantages. The biggest advantage is that it is so similar to Java code, that any Java developer can pick it up and understand it immediately.

We still love and use Java a lot and they both complement each other very well.

<comment><USER26> > it is so similar to Java code, that any Java developer can pick it up

Perhaps Java 7, but Apache Groovy doesn't have the lambda syntax from Java 8. Development on Groovy has stagnated -- someone even contributed a fully working Antlr-4 based parser to replace their outdated Antlr-2 based one last year, but it's been sitting in their development repository at Github going nowhere ever since.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I'm JVM guy and really wish this platform has something like F# - "minimalistic" functional language (not like Scala) with static, powerful type system (not like Clojure).

<comment><USER28> Have you seen Frege and Eta?

[https://github.com/Frege/frege](https://github.com/Frege/frege)

[http://eta-lang.org](http://eta-lang.org)

<comment><USER29> eta looks interesting for Haskell refugees in Java-land..

That being said, any idea why they started from scratch instead of building on or contributing to frege?

<comment><USER30> They had ideological differences, Frege focusing on the Haskell standard, Eta on "whatever GHC does".

<comment><USER11> Pure FP language communities have a lot in common with extreme left movements where small differences can lead to complete forks. There seems to be an equivalence between purity and intolerance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> No mention of Clojure? It should defiantly be mentioned as on of the big JVM languages. Though I get that it maybe isn't what the author was looking for I'm a bit surprised it was totally overlooked.

</comment><comment><USER32> The whole getter/setter argument is trite. Project Lombok has been around for years and resolves that issue as well as many more.

<comment><USER33> You end up needing more-or-less your whole ecosystem to understand Lombok - your IDE, debugger, profilers, linters, code coverage tools... it ends up being just as much effort as switching languages.

<comment><USER12> Yep, my thoughts exactly. I tried lombok when I was coding in Java and ended up dumping it beause it had more issues than it tried to solve.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> > I decided Scala made it too easy to write code unreadable for most > developers

As a side note, this seems to be the biggest detractor for Scala. Any team that I have spoken to with Scala experience seem to have had projects that went too 'Scala/functional'.

<comment><USER12> Scala is the Perl of the JVM. :D

<comment><USER35> I have heard that before. I like(d) Perl. Got me tempted to try Scala.

<comment><USER36> Then don't. I couldn't think of two languages more different in every way.

<comment><USER12> They are similar in a way that none of them is readable. At least Perl is writable...

<comment><USER36> I find scala infinitely more readable than java. For starters I do not have to skip pages and pages of boilerplate, unless some genius decided to do 1 to 1 translation of his java code

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I wonder why Kotlin beat Scala in this virtual programming language traction game. I don't write code for the JVM anymore, but Kotlin occupies the same space as Scala.

Was it compilation speed? Corporate support?

<comment><USER38> Scala is much more complex language. Kotlin is more complex, than Java, but its complexity is just enough to cover major Java pain points.

Scala brings its own huge library with features that I don't need. Billions of abstract collections, but all I need is HashMap and ArrayList. They generalize over builders, so `filter` can return some fancy underlying class, but all I need for filter is to return ArrayList or lazy sequence. Kotlin again hits sweet point: all it does is extending standard Java library with few utility methods and it adds lazy sequence type (interface with one method).

Due to Scala huge library it's hard to use on Android with its artificial 65k method restriction. Kotlin doesn't have this problem.

Last time I checked, Intelij Idea wasn't able to parse even standard Scala library without errors. May be it's better now, but my experience is that Kotlin beta plugin was better than Scala plugin. Doesn't relate to language directly, but complexity of the language is definitely influences tooling: simplest language Go has awesome tooling.

Compilation time was never an issue for me, but I guess for some projects it matters.

I don't care about corporate support, but I do care about dogfunding. I didn't see Hibernate being rewritten with Ceylon. But Jetbrains use their own language for their tasks, that means that they are unlikely to abandon it. Google support probably matters a lot for Android developers as well.

That said, Scala is mature language and I don't see it going anywhere soon. It has very rich set of features, it allows much better abstractions than Kotlin, it has huge projects, a lot of developers work as Scala developers. But Kotlin definitely has a momentum.

<comment><USER39> >"Kotlin is more complex, than Java, but its complexity is just enough to cover major Java pain points."

Would you mind elaborating on what those Java pain points are that Kotlin smoothes over?

Also are people deploying Kotlin on the server side or do you see that being a thing in the future? For some reason I have this(perhaps incorrect) association Kotlin only in the context of Android. But maybe that's incorrect?

<comment><USER38> > Would you mind elaborating on what those Java pain points are that Kotlin > smoothes over?

1\. Explicit semantics for nullable variables. It helps to convey information whether this function can accept or return null and compiler checks that your code won't throw NullPointerException. It's not ideal when you're dealing with Java code, but it works.

2\. Explicit and convenient semantics for mutable and immutable variables. You can use `final` in Java for variables or parameters, but few people do that, because code becomes quite verbose. With Kotlin you are using `val` or `var`, so code doesn't become more verbose.

3\. Almost everything is an expression. Helps to write concise code sometimes and makes a language more consistent.

4\. Compiler changes type of variable when developer checks for this type. So you don't have to write nonsense like `if (a instanceof String) f((String) a)`, instead you write `if (a is String) f(a)`.

5\. Better replacement for `switch` statement. Kotlin's `when` statement has more features. Not a proper pattern-matching, though.

6\. Default values for function parameters. With Java you have to write lot of function overloads with slightly different set of parameters and delegate it to a single function. With Kotlin you're writing one function with optional parameters.

7\. Named arguments. Sometimes it leads to much more readable code.

8\. Generic parameters can be covariant or contravariant. Basically you can assign `List<Integer>` to variable of type `List<Number>`. It helps sometimes.

9\. Operator overloading. `a + b` instead of `a.plus(b)`; `m["x"]` instead of `m.get("x")`. Code looks much more natural, when used appropriately.

10\. Singletons. Kotlin doesn't have static classes, instead it has `object`s, which are implementation of singleton pattern. They can implement interfaces, for example.

11\. Proper properties. getter/setters generated automatically, property access looks like field access, but with all perks the methods have.

12\. No need for artificial utility classes, which are not really a classes, but just a bunch of static methods. You can either use plain functions at top- level or enhance existing classes with utility methods. `str.isBlank()` instead of `StringUtils.isBlank(str)`, for example.

Generally Kotlin is much less verbose than Java, but it's concise enough and doesn't try to be implicit or magical.

> Also are people deploying Kotlin on the server side or do you see that being > a thing in the future? For some reason I have this(perhaps incorrect) > association Kotlin only in the context of Android. But maybe that's > incorrect?

According to Kotlin developers their user base was roughly 50% : 50% between server side and Android. I used Kotlin for small server side projects, it works almost flawlessly with standard Java frameworks like Spring or Hibernate.

<comment><USER39> Thank you for the detailed response. Cheers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't know much about Kotlin but whenever I see code samples, it sure looks like it borrows heavily from Swift.

<comment><USER40> Here's what Chris Lattner said about Kotlin this past June:

"Lattner: Swift and Kotlin evolved at about the same point in time with the same contemporary languages around them. And so the surface-level syntax does look very similar. … But if you go one level down below the syntax, the semantics are quite different. Kotlin is very reference semantics, it's a thin layer on top of Java, and so it perpetuates through a lot of the Javaisms in its model.

"If we had done an analog to that for Objective-C it would be like, everything is an NSObject and it's objc_msgSend everywhere, just with parentheses instead of square brackets. And a lot of people would have been happy with that for sure, but that wouldn't have gotten us the functional features, that wouldn't have gotten us value semantics, that wouldn't have gotten us a lot of the safety things that are happening [in Swift].

"I think that Kotlin is a great language. I really mean that. Kotlin is a great language, and they're doing great things. They're just under a different set of constraints."

[https://oleb.net/blog/2017/06/chris-lattner-wwdc-swift- panel...](https://oleb.net/blog/2017/06/chris-lattner-wwdc-swift-panel/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'm not a Java guy, but I'm still wondering why nobody every wrote a JVM with near-zero startup time.

<comment><USER42> Well I am a Java guy and have two points to make.

First. What are you even talking about?

      Quiet:test user$ time java Test
      Test

      real	0m0.104s
      user	0m0.074s
      sys	0m0.028s
      Quiet:test user$

That's on a current MBP 13" top end.

And second: Who cares? What us "Java guys" do with Java, well, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it takes half a second to start. Because, we deploy to running processes. "We" power things like Hadoop clusters. The startup time is meaningless in "our realm" and frankly, I think if you're wondering about java for something like command line tools, it's just the wrong tool for the job for many reasons. And if you're looking at GUI apps, it's still better than Electron :P

So seriously, Hacker News, what is the obsession with this?

<comment><USER43> The obsession with this is that people would like to be able to use their favourite JVM language to write CLI tools, consumer-GUI tools or AWS lambda programs. Sure, you can just say that the JVM is the wrong tool, but that is a somewhat unsatisfying answer because it still doesn't let me write those things in clojure/scala or whatever JVM language.

<comment><USER4> They can, it is their problem if they keep ignoring the existing AOT compilers, and there are quite a few.

<comment><USER44> Are there any without an expensive license?

<comment><USER4> OpenJDK 9 if on Linux x64, but it is still not yet released.

ExcelsiorJET has a free license for non-commercial uses.

[https://www.excelsiorjet.com/](https://www.excelsiorjet.com/)

[https://www.excelsiorjet.com/#free](https://www.excelsiorjet.com/#free)

RoboVM's fork is another possibility

[https://github.com/MobiVM/robovm](https://github.com/MobiVM/robovm)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Seriously, using Google search trends isn't the best way to analyze usage or popularity. GitHub stats (assuming they are publicly available), would be much better.

<comment><USER11> Surely Indeed.com is the place to look for adoption in paid work?

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> He fails to mention Golo.

</comment><comment><USER47> TFA mentions Groovy but not JavaScript which could be considered Java's direct dynamic/scripting variant given JavaScript's origin. In fact, there are two mainstream implementations of it even (rhino, nashorn), though not upgraded to ES2015.

<comment><USER48> Java and JavaScript are not directly related. JavaScript added Java to the name for marketing purposes. JavaScript doesn't run on the JVM like the rest of these languages

<comment><USER47> I'm well aware what Java is, given I'm developing for it (and other things) since 1997 ;)

But my original comment was meant seriously, rather than cheap trolling. Unlike Groovy, JavaScript has excellent portability and a perspective to migrate code away from Java/JVM.</comment></comment></comment>


Apple Violated Qualcomm Patent, U.S. Trade Judge Rules - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-26/apple-infringes-qualcomm-patent-judge-recommends-iphone-ban <comment><USER3> The patent in question is for "Multiple supply-voltage power-up/down detectors, and it sounds ridiculous on the face of it. Upon cursory glance, that appears to be the case.[0]

It's kind of surreal that two large tech companies who design and produce technology of staggering complexity are in a dispute over something so simple.

[0] [https://patents.google.com/patent/US8063674B2/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/US8063674B2/en)

<comment><USER4> Oh, geez. It really does look like a patent for (paraphrased):

 _A method for reducing power consumption by detecting a power-on of a second supply voltage while a first supply voltage is already on and adjusting current draw from the first supply as a result_

<comment><USER5> Here is a brief guide to reading patents:

* Ignore the title, it will only confuse you.

* Ignore the abstract, it will only confuse you.

* Ignore the figures, it will only confuse you.

* Ignore the description, it doesn't matter.

* Jump straight to the claims (the only thing left in the patent). This is literally the only thing that matters in the entire document.

* Ignore most of the claims--anything that says "the _thing_ of claim _N_ ". You can't violate those without violating other parts of the patent, by definition. The Google patent view helpfully puts these in lighter gray.

* You can also generally go straight only to the first claim, because the other claims end up being subtly-reworded variations of the first claim.

* This claim is, in short, "A _thing_ comprising _A_ , _B_ , and _C._ " You have to have all of _A_ , _B_ , and _C_ to violate the patent. If you have just _A_ and _B_ and no _C_ , you don't violate it. If you have _A_ , _B_ , and something that is similar to _C_ but you used a relay where _C_ says to use a transistor, you don't violate it.

<comment><USER4> The point is that it isn't novel. Novelty is supposed to be a requirement for a patent claim to be patentable. This patent is like making a drink by mixing 4 different fruit juices, but stirring it with a teak spoon. No identical prior art, very specific claims. Not novel.

<comment><USER6> The patent office has been granting technology patents for non-novel things for ages, sadly. There does not appear to be any fix for it, as it even ensnares one of the world's richest companies. Presumably there would need to be consequences to the government for granting non-novel patents, and there appear to be none.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why is Qualcomm suing Apple instead of Intel? The article makes it sound like Apple switched to using Intel chips due to the license fees. If Intel is infringing, wouldn't they be responsible? Or does the law allow you to go after "customers"?

<comment><USER8> "Qualcomm's business model, which is either ingenious or diabolical depending on whom you talk to, is to allow any _chip company_ to use its technology _royalty-free._ Phone manufacturers can choose to buy chips from Qualcomm or one of the other five companies that make modems using Qualcomm's technology. Either way, they _(the phone manufacturers)_ still have to pay Qualcomm its 5 percent."

Ref: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-10-04/apple- and...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-10-04/apple-and-qualcomm- s-billion-dollar-war-over-an-18-part)

<comment><USER9> How is Qualcomm's approach supposed to work under US patent law? That Qualcomm _made no money_ seems immaterial – either they licensed (e.g.) Intel to use their IP, or they didn't. In the former case, patent exhaustion should apply and Qualcomm is out of luck. In the latter, it again seems that Intel is the infringer, not Apple or any other Intel-using handset maker.

Put another way: I'm looking for a clear statement of what legal theory is Qualcomm using in its attempt to leapfrog the chip manufacturer and bring patent suit against handset makers?

<comment><USER10> The common industry practice is to collect royalties at the end of the supply chain -- from smartphone OEMs. So, SEP holders, Qualcomm, Ericsson, Nokia, etc, usually don't after each other or chip makers for royalties. Now, Apple's judge, Lucy Koh, in a pretrial decision last year, declared that Qualcomm is obligated to license their SEPs to all willing licensees under ATI/TIS FRAND (Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory) terms, including baseband makers such as Intel, but this remains to be seen (will be appealed by Qualcomm). Another judge in the ED of Texas, Gilstrap however ruled in December that SEP holders aren't required to license their patents to baseband makers under ETSI FRAND. (yes, there are apparently different/conflicting competing FRAND terms)

I'm not sure if patent exhaustion applies since QTL (licensing) and QTC (chip- making) are technically two separate business entities (subsidiaries). I'm assuming this is all legit, since Apple had funneled their IP and oversea profit to Irish subsidiaries to avoid taxes for years -- meaning they were treated as entirely separate businesses. Qualcomm also argued that QC's patent portfolio goes beyond chip-making and there are other wireless technologies that are not embedded in the baseband chip (hence no exhaustion). The USFTC's lawsuit against Qualcomm ended about a month ago and now we are all patiently awaiting for Koh's decision.

<comment><USER9> _I 'm not sure if patent exhaustion applies since QTL (licensing) and QTC (chip-making) are technically two separate business entities (subsidiaries)._

I wasn't aware of that; that's quite interesting. But it's unclear whether it affects exhaustion, in that QTL would still have (or have not) licensed Intel (or QTC). So either (Intel or QTC) have a license and exhaustion applies, or they do not, and are the actual infringers.

Now, the law being the law, "the actual infringers" is not going to be a strict legal concept, but in some areas of law and/or some jurisdictions, there are legal structures that produce similar outcomes – where a suit cannot be brought against someone one or more "jumps" away, e.g. just to find a defendant with deeper pockets. I'm absolutely out of my depth re: US patent law on this topic, except that it _seems insane_ for a patent holder to be able to sue all the _users of an infringing product_. But then patent law so ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

<comment><USER10> Ok. it's actually fairly simple. A minor correction though: Qualcomm actually never made their legal argument based on QTL and QTC. Qualcomm did argue that their patent portfolio goes beyond baseband chips and their customers are paying for non-chip related features that cover security, encryption, algorithm, etc.. (hence no exhaustion)

And yes, it's perfectly legal to pick anyone one, not all, layer in the supplier chain and collect royalties there. The wireless industry agreed to collect the royalties from the last manufacturer in the supply chain decades ago -- and that's more or less the de facto industry practice today. This isn't to say SEP holders can go after any random body as they please -- there are legal analysis and factors that help determine if that's fair. For instance, I think it's reasonable to use the end-user smartphone device as royalty basis since Qualcomm's IP adds significant value and drive market demand for Apple's iPhones. On the other hand, it would be silly to make similar comparison to a BWM 8 Series Coupe with wireless functionality.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Another source: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-26/apple- inf...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-26/apple-infringes- qualcomm-patent-judge-recommends-iphone-ban)

<comment><USER11> We changed the URL to that from [https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-violated- qualcomm-patent-...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-violated-qualcomm- patent-u-s-trade-judge-rules-11553624866), since WSJ appears now to be behind a paywall without workarounds. (Per [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) and [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989.](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989.))

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I follow Florian Mueller (@FOSSPatents) for his take on most of the Qualcomm v Apple litigation (including the recent FTC antitrust case). He seems to be somewhat anti-Qualcomm (although that might just be based on his perception of their likelihood of winning). His take: [0]

> ITC judge disagrees with ITC staff, sides with Qualcomm against Apple: one > patent held infringed, import ban recommended; but patent likely invalid

> Administrative Law Judge (ALJ) MaryJoan McNamara just announced an initial > determination ("initial" means the parties can seek a Commission review, and > a final ruling is still four months off) according to which Apple is deemed > to infringe one of three Qualcomm patents-in-suit... In my observation, > decisions by ITC judges that run counter to staff recommendations are > virtually certain to be reviewed and more likely than others to be reversed.

Also, the patent is for "multiple supply-voltage power-up/down detectors" and is currently being reviewed by the USPTO for validity.

[0] - [http://www.fosspatents.com/2019/03/itc-judge-disagrees- with-...](http://www.fosspatents.com/2019/03/itc-judge-disagrees-with-itc- staff.html)

<comment><USER13> Florian Mueller is very anti-Google and pro-Apple and has been since the last decade throughout the infamous era of "war against android" by Steve Jobs - Samsung vs Apple, Apple vs HTC, Apple vs Google, Oracle vs Google and many others.

<comment><USER14> Although I'm also pro-Apple in most of these scenarios, I just think he appears pro-Apple and anti-Google because he has a better understanding of the situations than most laypeople. Most people who don't have a deep understanding of the topic at hand, for example, think that the Apple vs. Samsung case came down to "Apple patented rounded corners" whereas the reality is that Samsung literally had a guidebook of things they set out to copy from the iPhone and one of those were the rounded corners on the devices which was covered in Apple's design patent for the iPhone.

<comment><USER15> What you say about the guidebook and rounded corners is (afaik, don't actually recall the guidebook part of the case but I do know they won on some other patents as well) true, but it doesn't change the fact that one of the things Apple _did_ win on was "Apple patented rounded corners".

The patent that literally _just_ consisted of rounded corners, not the rest of the stuff, was upheld as a valid patent and Samsung was found to be infringing it. Theoretically, if Samsung hadn't violated any other Apple IP, the court should still have found them to be infringing the rounded corners patent.

This is worth ridiculing, and outlines the state of the patent system, which clearly needs adjusting.

<comment><USER16> Its worth pointing out that this protection was a Design Patent ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent)) which despite the name is quite different from a utility patent - it basically allows decorative doohickeys to be protected.

Coke's curvy bottle is covered by a design patent, for example.

<comment><USER17> _Was_ covered. Coke's bottle design patents have been expired for close to 70 years or more.

I had to look this up, because I figured there was somehow a risk that Coke had managed to get century-long patents in America.

<comment><USER10> No. design patents only last 15 years. Coke's bottle design I believe is protected under trade dress/mark, which allows Coke's unique design to be protected in perpetuity.

[https://www.upcounsel.com/trade-dress](https://www.upcounsel.com/trade- dress):

"When deciding whether to obtain a trade dress trademark, a design patent, or both, you should first consider what each protects:

Design patent - protects the design of a product giving you exclusivity over the design for a certain period. Even if you don't manufacture or sell the product, you are still protected by a design patent. Trade dress - <USER2> your investment in marketing and advertising where you have created a particular image for your product, and consumers exclusively associate that image with your product. As design patents and trade dress protect different things, the requirements are different for both:

Design patent - the design firstly has to be new and cannot be a variation of a design that already exists. The design must also be ornamental in nature, rather than purely functional. That said, it can have some functionality. Trade dress - a trade dress must be something that is distinctive and connects the consumer to the product, i.e. the consumer instantly recognizes the source of the trade dress. Unlike a design patent, it cannot be functional in any way. Design features that have a function should be protected with a design patent."

Do note that all of Apple's 'trade dress' claims were thrown out because of their failure to meet "non-functionality"/ornamental requirement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> News from December: China court bans sales of older iPhone models in Apple- Qualcomm global battle

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qualcomm-apple/china- cour...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qualcomm-apple/china-court-bans- sales-of-older-iphone-models-in-apple-qualcomm-global-battle-idUSKBN1O91LD)

</comment><comment><USER19> 1/3\. Eh. Now they know what to work around.

</comment><comment><USER20> Good times to be a lawyer.

</comment><comment><USER21> It looks like outline does not support this article. This is probably the first time I've seen that.

<comment><USER22> I have always found it somewhat questionable to use a service like outline for paid content... I am very much against DRM services, but DRM-free advocacy efforts are hampered by people flocking to services like outline instead of paying for the content they want to consume (and content creators are pushed to embrace consumer-hostile DRM measures as well).

<comment><USER23> Apparently this upstanding moral armchair-lawyer on Hacker News wants to comment on an IP theft case by stealing intellectual property! (I'm with you. I pay for my WSJ and don't complain about commercial news sources I don't pay for.)

<comment><USER21> I'm not complaining about anything. All I stated is outline does not work with WSJ. I find it hard that WSJ charges $38.99/month[1], while I hardly read 5-10 articles a month? I would like to see some sort of pay-per-use or aggregated new service that I can subscribe to.

[1]: [https://store.wsj.com/v2/US/US/1110600005](https://store.wsj.com/v2/US/US/1110600005)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


It's Raining Dandruff: On the Flake Epidemic - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@ramanfrey/its-raining-dandruff-3d8681420a0 <comment><USER2> > A meeting to chart our company's course, big decisions, and you want me > there? How about an immediate response? I know you're checking those > e-mails.

Is there a new trend where under the guise of productivity, people in tech and business set aside time for reading company email - sometimes as infrequent as once a week - and thus delay the dissemination of information and in turn block progress?

I get that focus is important - I don't believe that multitasking is usually a good idea - but collaboration also critical. And in an era of electronic communication, if its more time efficient for me to drive to another state than send you an email or IM, we are not progressing. And you look flakey.</comment>


A win for open source: SCO case finally over - <AUTHOR> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100610161411160

<comment><USER2> It ain't over till it's over.

We've had final judgments before (which was right before they declared bankruptcy). And there's still a mess in bankruptcy court. And Lord knows, they can try to appeal everything to the Supreme Court. I don't think there's a chance in hell that they'd actually grant cert, but this is SCO, so I have to believe they'll at least try to get the Supreme Court to hear them out.</comment>


Iceland forgives mortgage debt of its population - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyxzg58JkYI

<comment><USER2> I sure wish I could get a mortgage for a house I obviously can't afford and then not have to pay it back.

It doesn't teach the person getting the mortgage anything about how to properly manage their money and not get in this sort of situation again.

They will just do it again in the future, but with something like credit card debt. This is a huge disservice to their economy.

I also wonder who has to pay for this. If it's the bankers, then it's a scary thing. It means the government pretty much has control over the companies/banks there. If not, then it's coming out of the taxpayer's

<comment><USER3> _They will just do it again in the future, but with something like credit card debt. This is a huge disservice to their economy.

I also wonder who has to pay for this._

Actually Iceland's economy is doing pretty well they where the only country to out of hand reject placing the private bank debt onto their tax payers as such the banks folded. I think the mortgage forgiveness is an extension of that, the banks folded due to them not being able to strap the debt to their public. Iceland has held the banks accountable for there abuse of the laws, and there are many cases in which Icelandic bankers where clearly in violation of Icelandic law. Some of this forgiveness is an extension of that, e.g forgiving fraudulent indexed loans and forgiving loans that where appraised by people paid by the banks to give higer appraisals, this link has more info on the subject than the video: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-20/icelandic- anger-bri...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-20/icelandic-anger-brings- record-debt-relief-in-best-crisis-recovery-story.html)

<comment><USER4> _"...Iceland's economy is doing pretty well they where the only country to out of hand reject placing the private bank debt onto their tax payers..."_

Sorta, but I think that's a little garbled. The big question is "should the government guarantee the debts of private banks". The textbook/neoliberal answer is "no, of course not, that would be insane". However, at the behest of the EU, Ireland did exactly that - an unprecedented move which has worked out pretty much exactly how everyone THOUGHT it would: badly.

Iceland, by contrast, went with the textbook answer (the Bloomberg story you link to even says this explicitly) of telling the creditors of private banks to get stuffed. They aren't the first nor yet the hundredth country to do that, and they won't be the last. And it working out fairly well for them, all things considered.

What's unusual here isn't how Iceland has behaved, but how _Ireland_ has behaved. And it's there we should be looking to draw the real lessons about what to do and - more importantly - _not_ do about future bank crises. (The Irish bank debt guarantee may yet prove to be the single silliest decision in the whole European debt crisis. Considering the competition, that's impressive.)</comment></comment></comment>


GE CEO: Bernie Sanders says we're 'destroying the moral fabric' of America - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ge-ceo-bernie-sanders-says-were-destroying-the-moral-fabric-of-america-hes-wrong/2016/04/06/8499bc8c-fc23-11e5-80e4-c381214de1a3_story.html?postshare=9841460034227896&tid=ss_tw <comment><USER2> > _General Electric, the nation's largest corporation, had a very good year in > 2010. The company reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion, and said $5.1 > billion of the total came from its operations in the United States. Its > American tax bill? None. In fact, G.E. claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 > billion._

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html)

> _General Electric Routinely Pays Little or No State Income Taxes_

[http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2015/06/general_electric_routinely...](http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2015/06/general_electric_routinely_pays_little_or_no_state_income_taxes.php)

> _As a group, the 15 companies paid no federal income tax on $23 billion in > profits in 2014, and they paid almost no federal income tax on $107 billion > in profits over the past five years._

[http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2015/04/fifteen_of_many_reasons_wh...](http://ctj.org/ctjreports/2015/04/fifteen_of_many_reasons_why_we_need_corporate_tax_reform.php)

<comment><USER3> I'd be curious to see a study on the following: "Priceline relied heavily on a single tax break — writing off the value of executive stock options for tax purposes — to zero out its tax liability not just in 2014 but in 2013, 2012 and 2011 as well. In addition, the company admits that this tax break could offset all taxes on up to $1.2 billion in profits going forward. Mattel also reports enjoying $140 million in stock option tax breaks over the past five years. Former U.S. Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) has estimated that this tax break will costs $23 billion over the next decade.[iii]"

Wouldn't the executives receiving these stock options be paying taxes on them? The company is just passing along the funds from the company to the executive as compensation, but the individual is still going to pay taxes on them. Otherwise, they would be double taxed regardless?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> With all due respect, I don't see _ANYONE_ paying more taxes than they 'have to'... feel free to blame the bought & paid-for politicians. Laws re: taxation effectively nullify any "moral" arguments - aside from the fact that "morals" are subjective...

</comment><comment><USER5> The HN title is missing a key phrase that is actually present on washingtonpost.com site.

<comment><AUTHOR> It was a few letters over the limit and I wasn't sure whether to truncate the beginning ie the end :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> What's next, Is he going to ask Apple to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US ?</comment>


Cisco pays $8.6M for selling surveillance system it knew was vulnerable - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/08/cisco-pays-8-6-million-for-selling-surveillance-system-it-knew-was-vulnerable/ <comment><USER2> $8.6M for Cisco? What's the point? That is insignificant for them.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's to rub it in for Huawei.</comment></comment>


AI researchers scared by their own work - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/researchers-scared-by-their-own-work-hold-back-deepfakes-for-text-ai/ <comment><USER2> Then we don't need most mainstream human news reporters anymore: same level of research and knowledge on topics.

It's when AI can do hard-hitting investigative journalism that we should be really worried.</comment>


Sencha Touch is a bizarre mish-mash - <AUTHOR> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/browse_thread/thread/ab729e7cd6ee78f6

<comment><USER2> David Mark? Sounds familiar... Ah, here we go:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=993300>

<comment><USER3> _head desk_ I must learn to look in the Comments after reading the link but _before_ upvoting. I wish I could take it back now.

<comment><USER4> Why? Despite his obvious lack of social charms, he is absolutely correct about Sencha (IMHO).

I don't like his attitude either, but the headline is accurate and the article (such as it is) is informative.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It seems like most of the criticism is about not being properly cross-browser, but since it's only supposed to work in webkit this seems beside the point.

</comment><comment><USER6> I whole heartily agree. Why use a rigid javascript framework to create something as simple as HTML5 and CSS?

Hopefully they will continue to develop JQTouch Project.</comment>


Do you want to work at Facebook? - <AUTHOR> http://prospectlinker.blogspot.com/

<comment><USER2> It makes no sense that "signing up for an account" is reason enough to be looked at by Facebook. You should get reviewed based on qualifications, recommendations, and the people you actually know.</comment>


Ask HN: Rebranding decision  - <AUTHOR>

Hello,
I'm an avid reader of HN so I think this is the right place to get some advice on what to do next, as I'm facing a little problem with a rebranding decision.
I operate a web development agency and want to move our current portofolio and services under a new brand.
Which one do you think I should use: ten.tld or digitalmedia.tld
I thought digitalmedia would be the best and most obvious choice for this business sector. This until I polled some of my current customers and quite a bunch told me that they like more the ten brand.
So please give me your opinion - what would you do?
Thank you, I really appreciate it. <comment><USER2> First, an important question: _why_ do you want to change your brand? What's not communicated properly?

A three-letter domain is quite rare these days, and that could give you some distinction. Also, digital media is quite bland, and that puts some pressure on the execution to make you stand out. On the other hand, you'll need some kind of story to put behind "ten" to make it memorable, IMHO.

In conclusion, it's all about execution :)

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm currently using ten.tld as my company name and domain. Recently I've secured digitalmedia.tld and thought that its straight-forward self- explanatory nature would give a boost to my business. Thank you for your input, it's a valuable lesson.

<comment><USER3> What if Apple had called the iPod the 'Apple MP3 Player'? via Evan Williams <http://evhead.com/2007/03/brandonomics.asp>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like ten.tld. It seems more memorable and unique. Plus I could see the logo having a lot of first impression impact.

</comment><comment><USER5> If those are the only two options on the table, I would go with ten.tld and do a promotional campaign around the idea of it being "A perfect ten" (on a scale of one to ten) kind of thing. Of course, you haven't said what you are doing currently, why you are wanting to rebrand...etc. So please realize that answer is probably only as good as the data it is based on, which is not much.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm already using ten.tld as my company name and domain. I've got digitalmedia.tld and thought that its straight-forward self-explanatory nature would be better than ten.tld - when communicating over the phone with potential customers some of them are misspelling ten (tem, tel).

I like the "a perfect ten" idea. It's catchy :)</comment></comment>


Broadband Around the World - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/broadband-around-the-world/ <comment><USER2> I attended a "facebook app" meetup, where one of the game developers mentioned they get most of their money from users in europe. This backs that up.

I am surprised South Korea is at #7. i thought Korea was among top 3 in internet subscibers/usage. they already have 100mbs for domestic subscribers(evident in the graph)</comment>


Cool idea: Mini magnetic white boards for mobile, web wireframing - <AUTHOR> http://www.cohdoo.com/ <comment><USER2> They should offer an entrepreneur pack which has a template for iPhone, iPad, Windows, OSX, plus all the browsers. After all, they're dry erase, so why would you need more than one?

Also, they should affiliate themselves with the makers of the lightscribe pen so that scribbles can be uploaded to the web.

<comment><USER3> You'll want to 'switch views' by having more than one.

Cool project, even though I prefer having paper so I can refer back to it later. Did make a 4:3 view template though for quick sketching.

<comment><USER4> we take a photo when we're finished, I've got about 100 sitting on my iPhone....

Every time I use a whiteboard I wish I could "create a new tab"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I suggest you change the 'slideshow' on the home page. I was expecting the entire site to be about the white boards and then seeing a 'download app in app store' threw me off. My confusion was cleared only when i clicked on the products page to see that you see the whiteboards and the iphone apps.

</comment><comment><USER6> I ordered the iPhone pack and will most likely get the browser pack....these are going to be awesome....they will make my crappy squares drawn on printer paper obsolete

</comment><comment><USER7> I like everything except the marketing speak liberally sprinkled throughout. :/</comment>


This Electronic Temporary Tattoo Will Soon Be Tracking Your Health - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/design/2013/02/skin-printed-electrodes/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29 <comment><USER2> Privacy issues aside, this is a great improvement over existing technology. This would really help with, for example, monitoring chronic conditions like hypertension. Instead of having to manually record and report blood pressure to their doctors, people could have it recorded and reported automatically. Speaking from experience, most people are lousy with that.

</comment><comment><USER3> Tracking my health, and what else?

I would, however, like to build a skin-mounted radio. Would cut down on the gear I have to carry on long bike treks.</comment>


Light Bootstrap Dashboard – useful freebie for web developers - <AUTHOR> http://ct-freebies.herokuapp.com/light-bootstrap-dashboard

<comment><USER2> Thank you for posting it, here is the creator, if you have any feedback or questions feel free to post them here.

</comment><comment><USER3> Can you share source code?

<comment><AUTHOR> You can find it here, for free:

[http://www.creative-tim.com/product/light-bootstrap- dashboar...](http://www.creative-tim.com/product/light-bootstrap-dashboard)</comment></comment>


Business Models That Rocked 2010 - tomh- http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/07/10-business-models-that-rocked-2010/

<comment><AUTHOR> Here is the actual site, without the blogspam.

[http://www.boardofinnovation.com/2011/01/04/10-business- mode...](http://www.boardofinnovation.com/2011/01/04/10-business-models-that- rocked-2010/)

</comment><comment><USER2> The models, from the slideshare notes[1]

      PatientsLikeMe.com
      Flattr.com
      Groupon.com
      Spotify.com
      PayWithaTweet.com
      HumbleBundle.com
      Free with in-app sales
      Quirky.com
      Airbnb.com
      Kickstarter.com

1- [http://www.slideshare.net/boardofinnovation/10-business- mode...](http://www.slideshare.net/boardofinnovation/10-business-models-that- rocked-2010-6434921)

</comment><comment><USER3> Very interesting that more subscription models didn't make the list (Spotify is the closest but so few people opt for premium).

And I only really see 4 business models here:

Take a cut: Flattr, GroupOn, HumbleBundle, Quirky (40% of sales), Airbnb, Kickstarter

Razor & Blades: Free with in-app sales

Fee-based: Quirky (the $99 fee)

Ads: Spotify, PatientsLikeMe

And Paywithatweet does not seem to have a way to make money.

I really like subscriptions, fees, and razor & blades. Take a cut is pretty good too, but you take the risk that nothing (or not much) gets sold. I don't like ads very much; the entire incentive structure is totally messed up. If you're not getting paid by your users, but rather by advertisers, you're not incentivized to create value for your users. There will be conflicts between the interests of users and the interests of advertisers, and given the incentive structure, over time and on average the interests of the advertisers will win out.

What do you guys think? Any favorite business models or ones you particularly dislike?

</comment><comment><USER4> Are users of #1 aware of what's going on?

<comment><USER5> ah, confused for a second. by #1, you mean the first company in the slide deck, patientslikeme not the one labeled #1, airbnb, i'm assuming.

<comment><USER4> haha yeah, sorry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What happens with the money pledged on Kickstart if the inventor fails to produce? Is any of it held in escrow until the product is delivered or what?

</comment><comment><USER7> I thought the slide show was designed very well. Simple and informative. It was a great way to get to know these companies and their business models.

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm kind of surprised that Groupon's business model isn't #1. It seemed to have the most influence and made most cash(again, this DOES depend on the market, but still...I highly doubt the market's are that different as the revenues between these companies are).

<comment><USER9> Groupon is worth more than all the other entries x10-100.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Is anyone else annoyed at PayWithATweet.com being called a "business model"? This feels more like the eyeballs-as-valuation strategy of the DotCom era, and equally flawed. The fact that you can get someone (or a whole bunch of them) to tweet about your product does not mean they will (ever) pay for something.

</comment><comment><USER11> Would it be even more successful if Groupon model adds what PayWithATweet does? When a Groupon user is happily taking a huge discount on a product, shouldn't be that hard to ask this user to take extra step to share this product information to his/her friends.

</comment><comment><USER12> I think good 'ol selling shit was a reinvigorated business model. Rovio?

</comment><comment><USER13> Happy to see two of them coming from Sweden (Spotify and Flattr).</comment>


Show HN: Rufus – a free, open source RSS reader - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/jtanza/rufus <comment><USER2> Name collision with a popular usb image writer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Surprisingly, I somehow failed to notice this until yesterday. If it becomes an issue, I am not in any way attached to the name - i'd be happy to change it.

<comment><USER3> I for one really like the name and URL and don't mind the name collision.

It's something that is bound to happen. There are a finite number of words, names, and spellings to make use of.

<comment><USER4> Not really, because it doesn't need to be a real word or an existing name. It could be Rexfus, for example. Even the dot com is available, and as a combination of Rex and Rufus, still dog inspired.

<comment><USER5> Rexfus is great!

It receives RSS Feeds, so:

      Rexfus => Receives for us.
      Rexfus => Rx       F   Us
      Rexfus => Rex      Fus
      Rexfus => Rexfus

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> FYI: Pluto [1] is an alternative open source feed reader (incl. support for JSON Feed, Microformats, Feed.TXT, and more)

[1]: [http://feedreader.github.io](http://feedreader.github.io)

<comment><USER7> Is Tiny Tiny RSS in the same category?

[https://tt-rss.org/](https://tt-rss.org/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> :D I built myself an RSS Reader in Java too.

Also with the crusty ROME toolkit and H2, but I made a simple UI in JavaFX.</comment>


Do we really need eight hours of uninterrupted sleep a night? - <AUTHOR> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/monday-s-medical-myth-you-need-eight-hours-of-continuous-sleep-each-night <comment><USER2> I'm halfway through Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep. And it's terrifying. The medical implications of insufficient sleep are rather worrisome.

[https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/295665/why-we- sleep/97801419...](https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/295665/why-we- sleep/9780141983769.html)

<comment><USER3> I read it, I liked it, I felt like it was not written very objectively.

There did not seem to be nearly enough self-doubt or testing alternate situations.

And it shouldn't be terrifying. You no longer have to worry about animals trying to eat you, finding enough food to eat yourself, dying of infection, or physically defending yourself on a day to day basis.

If the worst thing that's wrong with you is sub-optimal sleep, you've got life pretty good.

We're getting down to solving more and more subtle problems. Sleep, the biological contents of your digestive system, and environmental exposures look to be the big health problems on the table to solve in the next few decades.

<comment><USER4> Sub-optimal sleep can absolutely ruin you, in the long run. E.g. it's been suggested that a significant portion (a third, IIRC, have to find that article) of chronic fatigue incidents are due to non-restorative sleep. Definitely a problem worth solving if you have it.

If you lie in bed awake once per week or so, you surely don't need to fret about it. It just must not become part of your lifestyle - if it does, get a checkup.

<comment><USER5> Calm down. We all die in the long run... Want better sleep? Stop worrying and work with your hands a bit.

<comment><USER6> Unfortunately that doesn't always work. Sometimes due to pure amounts of work I have done over the day I just can't sleep when I get to bed. (Chef, so definitely working with my hands haha)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I work in Academia. I sleep after lunch every day. I have lunch in 30 minutes and then I sleep 20 minutes. I have an sleeping mat and a pillow in my office and I sleep on the floor. It really boosts my afternoon productivity, specially now that I have a baby and wake up several times during the night. During the weekends I sleep a little longer. I've been doing this for many years and I struggle a little bit when in meetings and conferences, where I can't sleep. But I'm learning to nap anywhere. ;-)

<comment><USER8> I wonder why it is, that some people can take a nap and feel refreshed. If I do it, I wake up WAY more tired than before going to sleep and will be groggy for a while.

I am guessing it must have something to do with how fast you can fall asleep and enter deep sleep.

<comment><USER9> The nap should be short, e.g. 30 min max.

<comment><USER10> is that after falling asleep or including that time?

Im asking because I cant fall asleep in 30minutes

<comment><USER11> Generally 25 minutes of actual sleep.

If it takes you longer than 15 minutes to fall asleep, you might need to look at cutting caffeine or other stimulants out of your diet completely. Exercise will also help.

Usually helps if you're feeling a strong sleep inertia signal (i.e. desire to sleep) compared to just feeling fatigued.

<comment><USER12> I don't need caffeine or other stimulants for it to take me way more than 15 minutes...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It is important that people realize sleep cycles do exist, but this seems a bit strawman-ish. If someone says "you need about 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep" I would rather take that as meaning things like "don't get up after just 5 hours" and "don't get up and check ebay auctions in the middle of the night even if it just takes 10 minutes", not "don't panic if you naturally wake up at 4am".

\-----

Btw, on

> Historical records also suggest that a segmented or bi-phasic sleep pattern > was the norm before the industrial revolution.

there's an interesting comment at [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18051041](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18051041)

<comment><USER14> s/don't panic/panic/

<comment><USER13> Doh! Thanks. That sentence got too complicated :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Having become a dad for the first time 14 months ago had quite the impact on the amount of uninterrupted sleep I have been getting since. I consider 4 hours in one stretch a good night. Averages are closer to 3 hours. My son simply is not a good sleeper.

Even though my son brings a lot of fun to mine and my partner's life, I have not felt well-rested since his birth, and feel impacted both mentally and fysically due to that.

<comment><USER16> I'm in the same boat. 3 years on and it's still extremely rare for my son not to wake up multiple times through the night and have to spend at least 20 mins (up to an hour or sometimes even up to 2 hours) getting him back to sleep. We've just had our second child and our daughter at 2.5 months old is also not a great sleeper during the night, but she will sleep through anything during the day. Combine that with both the kids staggering their sleep/wake schedules (as if they're colluding!) and I'm lucky to get a 3 hour stretch of sleep. Since I've been back at work after paternity leave I've regularly caught myself falling asleep at my desk at work and need to go and take a nap in my car at lunch time just so I can function.

<comment><USER17> Reading this while son has just woken up mid sleep cycle and decided to wake the house... 10 month old :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> You can meditate, you can chug red bull or coffee, you can use pomodoro's or live your life in a GTD system, but nothing will compare to the productivity increase of getting a good nights sleep.

<comment><USER19> There's a catch 22, I always sleep deep when I had a full day prior :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've tried multiple different sleep approaches in order to maximize "awake" time, but defaulted back to exactly 8h/day - my body simply takes 8 uninterrupted hours and wakes me up precisely without any alarm clock. While experimenting, I saw energy/cognitive decline (tested) after a while, correcting when going back to 8h, so multi-phase sleep is definitely not for me.

<comment><USER21> Same here. I got some energy from a mid-day/afternoon sleep, but after it also takes an hour to wake up completely. Going below the 8 hour sleep in a row and loosing focus. Even the weekends get messed up with less sleep.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> At night i tend to get around 6 hours or so. I work from home and tend to find a 90 minute nap, as my (long) lunch break really works well for me. I eat my lunch whilst i work. This wouldn't work onsite, I'm sure, but it really works well for me.

Gives me that little pick me up in the afternoon that i used to power through with LOTS of coffee. Down to one coffee a day now

<comment><USER23> One coffee a day max is a good trick. Like all addictive substances there is a seriously diminishing return and eventual swing patterns as tolerance builds. One a day gives you the full effect and has a chance to fully leave your system so you don't require coffee to function. Coffee withdrawal migraine style headaches are a real thing.

<comment><USER22> Took some major effort to get down to one, i suffered the horrid headaches as you mentioned. It took a while to figure out what was causing it, it was me not having any coffee.

Now my coffee machine glares at me each time in the kitchen, but just one in the morning is all i do now :) I buy some lovely beans and just make sure that ONE COFFEE IS GREAT!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This linked article by the same author is a bit better: [https://theconversation.com/broken-sleep-its-a- rollercoaster...](https://theconversation.com/broken-sleep-its-a- rollercoaster-ride-1792).

<comment><USER25> What do you like more about the article you linked?

<comment><USER24> It seemed to me to have more information. They're pretty close though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm totally fine with splitting sleep in two, but it's incompatible with most jobs and even social stuff.

It's hard to find a fixed 2,5h slot that can be blocked every day. I could only do it during my high-school times.

</comment><comment><USER27> I personally know a case of trying the "uberman" sleep schedule (aka "da vinci" sleep schedule, or ~30min sleep every four hours, permanently), having tried hard but could never completely convert to the schedule, where doing so is one of two strong possible causes of the individual now suffering very debilitating Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and can no longer work regularly despite years of medical tests and efforts.

<comment><USER28> That sounds like a terrible idea

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I sleep from 1am - 4am and then take 2 x 30 minute naps at 11am and 6pm. I've done this for a very long time. As a child and teenager I was often forced to try and sleep so I just lay awake. Once it was realized that I just couldn't sleep I was allowed to do quiet tasks like read or after I learned to code, code :-)

</comment><comment><USER30> My digestion won't support 8 hours of uninterrupted anything. I'm up 2-3 times every night, as though I had a young child, but I'm single. Some nights, I'll be up for an hour or more, then return to bed for "second sleep".

<comment><USER31> I understand how difficult that can be.

I suffer from nocturia (diagnosed as non pathological after many rounds of tests all turning up negative). In a typical night I get five hours max of contiguous sleep and have started sleeping (by that I mean the in bed duration) nine to ten hours as an attempt to compensate for not being able to stay asleep.

I've always been curious about the difference between time spent in bed and actual time in deep sleep and their equivalence (or exchange factor).

Have you also resulted in increasing how long you are in bed to compensate?

<comment><USER30> I've used Sleep for Android to track my sleeping patterns since about 2013. I consistently get 3-4 hours of deep sleep per night in 6 hours of actual sleep.

Sometimes it's simpler to watch an hour of YouTube (or post on HN, upvotes are easier at night), than to get up and lay back down several times.

The app pauses sleep tracking when it can tell you're awake. This makes it annoying to see I've been sleeping from 9pm until 7am, and only got 6.5 hours of sleep.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I've experimented with two 3-4 hour sleep periods and it is great, two fresh starts per day... but only works if you don't have anything resembling a normal schedule.

</comment><comment><USER32> On the subject of Why We Sleep: I'm not sure how well it corresponds to the book, but Matthew Walker also has a Google Talks talk on the same subject that I recommend watching if you're not a book person:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ)

</comment><comment><USER33> From a human performance and health point of view, yes, you need between 7-9 hrs of sleep a night.

It doesn't need to be continuous or perfect, but good sleep is going to have a huge impact on your quality of life.

In the short term, you can deal with the less, but your cognitive function, physical performance and metabolism are going to be impaired.

</comment><comment><USER34> The amount of sleep also depends on age, obviously.

<comment><USER35> Well, kids need more, obviously.

But old people do not really less than young adults, according to "Why we sleep".

<comment><USER36> > _Well, kids need more, obviously._

Not really obvious. Babies and toddlers maybe, but kids after 5-6 seem to have much more energy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Meh. I don't really buy into this biphasic hype. If I go to sleep in the afternoon, my body still wants several hours sleep and I'll wake up groggy, disoriented and more tired than before.

I can live on 6, and feel bad. 8 is good. 9 is better. 10 is common for me at weekends when I have no particular plans.

<comment><USER38> Absolutely the same here. And sometimes i wake up pretty early, feeling totally awake. I find that in that case, I have to get up. If i force myself to sleep 2 more hours, the day is basically ruined.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Of course, we don't. We need 9 !!!</comment>


Ask HN: How do I inform an organisation of a security issue on their website? - <AUTHOR>

So the other day I came across a website that doesn't use any kind of security on their online form in which people are entering financial information along with their own personal information.
I've tried to email this organisation and even call them to inform them of the error but have come up against a brick wall in both cases.
The thing is, this organisation has inherent trust from the community and people will enter this information freely because of this trust. Even their privacy policy on their site states that they will secure the information but they obviously aren't.
Any ideas on what I could do? I'd rather not just leave it alone. <comment><USER3> Create an anonymous email account and launch an EECB ([http://consumerist.com/2007/05/how-to-launch-an-executive- em...](http://consumerist.com/2007/05/how-to-launch-an-executive-email-carpet- bomb.html)). If their tech staff isn't listening, maybe you can scare the upper level management to. Just be very, very anonymous with it-- a lot of companies seem to like the "cover our eyes and sue the guy who found it" approach to security holes.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's an excellent link thanks. I've managed to come up with their email naming scheme and am going to send off some emails soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You really should just leave it alone. Unless you have a personal stake in seeing this fixed, there's just way too much "shoot the messenger" going on these days to do this safely. You don't have to be web-batman. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's your thing. Just remember how often people thought batman was the bad guy.)

You already know that they have very little expertise when it comes to security, are you sure that you can explain to them whats wrong without sounding to them like an evil hacker who broke into their interwebs?

<comment><AUTHOR> Web-Batman - I like that.

The thing is, its not even an issue that's difficult to fix and its not as if I broke anything, the security hole is blatantly obvious.

Basically, the offending form doesn't use SSL or any kind of encryption when people send in private information, which does include sensitive financial information amongst other things.

Given the level of information they require, anyone intercepting that info could easily social engineer things like passwords out of that person, which is why I'm worried about it.

Ah well, at least I tried...

<comment><USER5> I'd keep trying to contact them then look at walking away. An SSL-related issue like that is not something you're going to get accused of hacking for reporting.

If you're really serious you could contact your local information privacy directorate (in the UK this would be the Information Commissioner's Office - <USER2> don't know who it is for the US) and ask them to investigate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Did you email webmaster or postmaster @domain.com? What contact info is listed in their whois?

<comment><AUTHOR> I did try, the whois information doesn't come up with anything useful and a search for the name in question doesn't return any useful information

<comment><USER6> Sounds like you've certainly made an effort to contact them. My only other suggestion would be to contact their hosting company's support department and let them know there is a security issue with one of their clients' sites and you haven't been able to reach the site's owners.

<comment><AUTHOR> Someone posted a great link to an article at the consumerist. I've managed to guess their email naming convention using a google search, so have sent off a detailed email of the problem to their executives trying to "dumb it down" as much as possible by including screenshots and a basic outline of a social engineering strategy (including a nightmare outcome) that might occur as a result of their oversight.

Hopefully it will come to someone's attention.

<comment><USER7> Let us know how it turns out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well now that they've fixed it, I guess I can say where I saw the error.

The error was on the Financial Ombudsman website in Australia in their online dispute form. The reason why this concerned me was that some of the information they need to collect included things like bank account numbers - so having this information sent insecurely to the Ombudsman was (imho) a big no-no.

I guess I finally managed to get through to someone who can fix it after I sent emails directly to the chief Financial Ombudsmen explaining exactly why it was an issue, with screenshots showing exactly where the problems were (I highlighted the appropriate parts) and an example explaining exactly how someone could use this information to engineer someone's account passwords out of them easily.

Thankfully its all fixed now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I tried reporting a high risk to a popular local shopping website. Infact, I also offered to fix it for them.

But the response was merely a "Thanks for letting us know. We'll look into it". It's been over a year but it's still there.</comment>


Black Hole Starship - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_starship <comment><USER2> Probably the most "likely" of all the "fraction of lightspeed" (30-50%) starships.

</comment><comment><USER3> I seem to remember a black hole powered starship being mentioned in a 1978 book edited by Jerry Pournelle called "Black Holes and Other Marvels"</comment>


Phishing for Phools: The Economics of Manipulation and Deception (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2015/09/17/you-have-been-warned <comment><USER2> Outlined: [https://outline.com/ApdhMt](https://outline.com/ApdhMt)</comment>


Ask HN: Impact of i18n / translation on iPhone app sales? - <AUTHOR>

Does anyone have any stories and/or numbers about how translation into various languages has affected iPhone app sales?<p>I've got an app that has made it very high in the AppStores of Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia and a few others, and I'm wondering if i18n would make a difference or not.  I'm guessing not, because English is common there from what I have read, but I'm wondering if there are other markets that aren't English speakers/readers that would open up with translation... <comment><USER2> Having spoken to foreign iPhone owners on a number of occasions and asked them about this (generally European countries where English is somewhat widely spoken):

Not having a native language version wouldn't necessarily dissuade them from the purchase of the app, but it's certainly appreciated if it has been translated. If anything, it just makes them feel like the developer cares about them and their market.

They would almost certainly choose a localised version of the same or similar app if it became available, over the English version (so it might be worth doing so for competitive reasons).

Many of the people I've spoken to said that they would generally not recommend an app to their non-English speaking friends if it were not localised, even if it was reasonably simple to learn how to use.

I've only spoken to a couple people, and they were pretty tech-headed, so it might be worth speaking to others.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'd focus more on l10n into Japanese, German, French, Spanish and Italian. Not necessarily in that order. Look at places the app _isn't_ as highly ranked as you'd like it to be. Extra attention to markets where you've had a review or two that you had to go to Google Translate to read.

<comment><AUTHOR> Know anybody fluent in Japanese, French, or Italian? Spanish and German I've got covered :-)</comment></comment>