Microsoft suspends Windows 10 update, citing data loss reports - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/06/microsoft-suspends-windows-10-update-citing-data-loss-reports/ <comment><USER2> I'm a tolerant person, but recently I switched from Windows to Mac because the forced Windows updates kept messing me up. One time I left a long simulation running overnight. In the morning, I was greeted by a computer that had automatically rebooted to install updates, killing my simulation. Another instance was my daughter's birthday party, where she wanted to show a movie. The computer decided to spend an hour doing updates instead. It seems like Windows has become an update engine that will sometimes also do computation for you.

My assumption is there's someone at Microsoft who gets a bonus as long as they keep presenting update graphs going up and to the right, and they don't care how much they mess up the Windows experience in the process.

<comment><USER3> I'm by no means a low-level OS developer but I can't help but wonder, wouldn't it be possible for Windows to partition off part of the disk to copy system- critical files and then quietly stage updates in the partition (all of this with _minimal thread priority_ so that if some other process demands resources/threads, it will pause/defer itself!). When the staged update is complete, it gives you a friendly notification "You have a new update available!" which you can then complete as fast as your disk can copy files (or even just set some flag to toggle the partition in use... The old partition then becomes the new staging partition)

Does that make sense at all or is this an unrealistic idea? EDIT: Maybe this is how updates already work, I'm not sure

<comment><USER4> > wouldn't it be possible for Windows to partition off part of the disk

This is what ChromeOS and Android do. At least on Android Pixel phones, there's A and B partitions for each of the boot, system, and vendor partitions. The bootloader tracks whether A or B should be booted. Userspace downloads the updates and writes to the opposite-than-booted partition. On reboot, the bootloader boots the latest partition. Downsize is these partitions are now double the size, so less space for the user partition.

<comment><USER5> This is also how microcontrollers like the ESP32 do over-the-air updates while keeping a "safe" factory firmware version.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Bizarre. I've seen something like this already in spring. A colleague lost all their documents, and calmly claimed it was probably "Windows Update". Apparently it is common knowledge in the office that Windows Update sometimes does that. I could never verify nor reproduce it, and chalked it up to "users say the darndest things". Files were simply restored from backup. Now I'm beginning to wonder if there was more to it.

That being said, I _personally_ haven't had problems with Windows 10 except for the very first months. I'm quite happy how stable it is and how at the same time they frequently push out new, useful features (the new console, ssh, nicer gui, immersive search, package management, ...). Microsoft, please don't mess it up and force me to go LTSB...

<comment><USER7> They released a new version of LTSB (well, they call it LTSC now) just a few days ago, based on this last version. I made a clean installation today.

en_windows_10_enterprise_ltsc_2019_x64_dvd_74865958.iso

No Store, no Cortana, no Edge, Windows 7 calculator, no Candy Crush, no bullshit. Don't miss out. ;-)

<comment><USER8> Slight downside: apparently Office 365 won't support LTSC soon: [https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Windows-IT-Pro- Blog/C...](https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/Windows-IT-Pro-Blog/Changes- to-Office-and-Windows-servicing-and-support/ba-p/151509)

<comment><USER9> The people who use LTSB also know how to get a volume license copy of Office 2019, which will be supported.

<comment><USER8> But how long will perpetual Office licenses be sold by Microsoft?

Problem is... 75% of Microsoft's customers will be satisfied with Office 365 - the other 25% are utterly allergic to the notion of losing sovereignty over their data, but knowing Microsoft they'll optimise for that 75% and eventually stop servicing the remaining 25% who desire perpetual licenses and on-prem storage, presumably they'll be happy with OpenOffice thus giving MS' Office org an excuse to ditch that market segment entirely.

...and that would trigger Microsoft's aping of Apple's similar departure from their customer base, which means they lose their halo effect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The whole user experience of installing Windows 10 is abysmal. Wife got a new laptop and I watched her to the initial setup. Stupid things like an "enter your pin" dialog that automatically opens another dialog that closes if you hit enter. So you quickly type your pin and hit enter and just see the dialog flash. Or the confusing "remove" button for the fingerprint scanner setup that just removes all of your fingerprints without confirmation. That's just one UI. It feels like some shitty enterprise software. Pathetic.

<comment><USER11> My anecdote: I've painlessly ran trough the windows 10 setup at least 3 times now.

<comment><USER12> Was going to say much the same thing, except I've probably done it around 10 times - it's always gone fine, and it's _so_ much faster than previous versions of Windows.

<comment><USER13> At the same time, are you running it on a faster SSD?

Disk IO is a huge bottleneck in the setup process.

<comment><USER12> Hah, you're right, I never thought of that!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The sad thing is that this bug has been reported during the insider betas. But people didn't upvote it so Microsoft never saw them.

[https://mobile.twitter.com/WithinRafael/status/1048473218917...](https://mobile.twitter.com/WithinRafael/status/1048473218917363713)

<comment><USER15> That really is sad. They should of had a team review all the reports and look for ones that seem bad enough. What are the odds a dozen users losing files is their own faults... Sheesh.

<comment><USER16> That's how it use to be. Now literally the entire team that use to do that are at Amazon working on Fire and Alexa.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Well I've been waiting literally _months_ for a laptop to complete its claim to be "installing" update 1709, and it never does.

The _only_ feedback in the entire update process is a little spinning circle in a list of updates, which spins for hours on end without apparently doing anything _until_ Windows suddenly out of the blue is "ready" to install and reboots. It will appear to get somewhere, reboot again, and somehow return to the desktop as if everything is OK, yet the update list claims that the update failed. Then it spins again.

I mean, even if it's "good" that it doesn't auto-install broken updates, it sure seems to be spending the absolute maximum amount of resources in terms of downloading data, consuming energy, wasting my time, etc. I suspect the _size_ of the update is the factor they should most easily be able to control; patch something smaller and maybe it will actually finish. I don't know, just seems like an utter mess to me.

<comment><USER18> You probably have the same problem I had, which is a slightly non-standard disk layout. Windows Update will fail without producing any meaningful diagnostics. It took me a _lot_ of time and much effort to finally get past that and get my system working.

Things to check:

Are you UEFI booting an MBR disk? It works, but Windows Setup will fail in future upgrades.

Do you have all the correct and required partitions? If you don't have the right partitions (OEM, EFI) of the right size, Windows Setup will again fail with cryptic errors, none of which say "your partitions are wrong".

<comment><USER19> > Do you have all the correct and required partitions? If you don't have the > right partitions (OEM, EFI) of the right size, Windows Setup will again fail > with cryptic errors, none of which say "your partitions are wrong".

Worth pointing out you don't have to be sharing the drive with another OS to get this situation. I had a system which I upgraded from 7 -> 8.1 -> 10\. My linux install and bootloader are on a totally separate drive. This left the drive with:

* 100mb system reserved partition (unused, created by win 7 installer)

* 250gb C: partition

* 400mb system reserved partition (created by 8.1 or 10 update, actually used)

Then I used the Samsung tool to copy to my new ssd and ended up with a 100mb system reserved partition and a 1tb c: drive. But the 1709 update tried to unpack the >100mb update into the too small system reserved partition and failed in a loop

<comment><USER18> Sure. My system disk was Windows only, but I go to pretty extreme lengths to avoid reinstalling Windows. So after my latest system upgrade I had a UEFI system running off a MBR disk and some bad partitioning. This was a source for much amusement...Window Setup would fail without explaining why, mbr2gpt would fail without explaining why, the BCD tools behaved badly, the Windows 10 recovery environment wouldn't work, etc.

Gradually, with much trial and error, I managed to work through each problem, until I wound up with a mostly correct GPT disk and a fully functioning system. It's now successfully applied several updates correctly, where previously it would get to 99%, fail, then roll back, only to try again the next day. As a side effect, I now know more about Windows 10 booting, the BCD, and GPT than I ever wanted to.

The only "problem" I have now is an unused old boot partition that I'm frankly terrified to try to remove, since it'll renumber all of the partitions and cause some problems. I'm relatively sure I know how to fix it, but it's too risky to contemplate right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> If you want to use Windows, just do it. But if you had to experience what it feels like when Windows thinks it is time for an automatic-forced-reboot- update which takes 4 hours the day you have to submit a thesis, then you might know why I am not so fond of Microsoft products anymore...

By the way, later that month I learned that I had been lucky as some people ended up being stuck within the update.

</comment><comment><USER21> They're absolutely garbage at this.

When I was _forced_ into the windows 10 update, it went through the process and appeared to finish but didn't put my desktop back. No problem I figured, they put it somewhere.

So I did a file search, found the desktop in a folder, moved it back to the desktop.

A day later it self-restarted and _completed the update_, replacing the desktop with the now empty desktop folder.

I went to the Microsoft store to get them to do a file recovery and they had the _gall_ to tell me it would be $250 plus 7 days and they wouldn't guarantee recovery.

I moved to Mac this year after being exclusively on Windows since '98.

I hope Microsoft dies andisgraceful death.

<comment><USER22> Ironically, if you had switched to a Mac sooner you may have been affected by Apple's data loss/corruption bugs. [1] [2]

Regardless of OS it's always a good idea to have backups of your important data.

[1] [https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/19/apfs-bug-macos-data- los...](https://www.macrumors.com/2018/02/19/apfs-bug-macos-data-loss-disk- images/)

[2] [https://www.iezzi.ch/leopard-1051-massive-data-loss- bug/](https://www.iezzi.ch/leopard-1051-massive-data-loss-bug/)

<comment><USER23> Unironically, I am in control of when and if any update happens on my Mac. Also unironically, the described bug has not happened as a result of an upgrade, it was not forced on any user and definitely was not affecting the whole desktop.

From the articles you linked:

"The images get corrupted on copies to the USB attached external drive. "

"However, as Bombich notes, ordinary APFS volumes like SSD startup disks are not affected by the problem described above, so the vast majority of users won't be affected by it – the flaw is most applicable when making backups to network volumes. "

I am not sure you have read the original article and the two articles you linked, otherwise it would have been obvious that these are not the same by volume and severity.

<comment><USER22> > it would have been obvious that these are not the same by volume and > severity.

If users don't have backups, _any_ unintended data loss caused by an operating system bug is bad because it can be difficult or impossible to recover the affected data. Would you not agree?

You may not have been affected by the two bugs I described above, but some people would have been (more so with the image corruption bug).

> the described bug has not happened as a result of an upgrade, it was not > forced on any user and definitely was not affecting the whole desktop.

If you go back further in time, there actually was a bug that resulted in data loss during an OS X upgrade.

[https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/exclusive-oxford-semi- fi...](https://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/exclusive-oxford-semi-firewire- bug-7197/)

 __ _Oxford Semiconductor has issued a statement with regard to the emerging Panther and FireWire data-loss debacle.

The company says: "Oxford Semiconductor has been investigating reports that some FireWire 800 drives have lost data after an upgrade to the Mac OS X 10.3 Panther operating system is installed (released late October).

"Currently we believe this issue relates to a change in the way Panther uses FireWire that affected version 1.02 of the OXUF922 driver software. A new version, 1.05 was issued by Oxford Semiconductor to the manufacturers of external drive products in early September."

As Macworld UK first reported yesterday, users installing Panther while having an external FireWire drive connected to their Mac have seen data loss; similarly, users with FireWire drives connected to their systems have seen data loss once they reboot Panther. At this stage, it appears that the problem is confined to FireWire 800 drives._ __

In 2001 there was also a bug in iTunes 2 that caused an entire hard drive partition to be deleted if the volume label was prefixed with a space.

[https://www.wired.com/2001/11/glitch-in-itunes-deletes- drive...](https://www.wired.com/2001/11/glitch-in-itunes-deletes-drives/)

 __ _Some Macintosh users who rushed to download the latest version of iTunes – Apple 's popular digital-music player – were singing a song of woe on Friday. A bug in the installation procedure caused the application to completely delete their computers' hard drives.

The bug seems to have affected computers with a very specific configuration: people running Mac OS X who had "partitioned" big hard drives into several smaller ones, and who'd typed a space at the beginning of the drive name.

For example, if a Mac had a drive named " music" instead of "music," it might have been deleted by iTunes.

Tom Fisher, a computer repair technician who lost about 100 gigabytes of information during the installation, said that people often include a space in the drive name to ensure it shows up at the top of the list when they examine their drives.

According to Mac experts who examined the code of the buggy iTunes installer, the problem arose from a very tiny programming mistake – a forgotten quote mark._ __

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Previous discussion from 10 hours ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18154165](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18154165) (34 comments)

</comment><comment><USER25> Is this incompetence the result of Microsoft being unable to retain decent engineers? I mean, who actually would want to work on the next Windows release? You'd have to be a masochist.

<comment><USER26> It's amazing to me. With the resources MS has, they could rebuild a new OS from the ground up and finally get rid of all the cruft and legacy issues in windows once and for all and still support legacy software via emulation, virtualization or even a compatibility layer a la WINE or WSL. Why don't they do it? Google is building fuchsia, Apple/NeXT was able to take BSD and build MacOS X, certainly MS can do it right?

<comment><USER23> And lose 90% of the user base (corporate users) along the way. I think at this stage they should just introduce a new OS for home users that copies the best parts of MacOS (non intrusive updates, UX, common task bar / top bar, single folder installs, unix/posix paths) and add the best parts of Windows (user space video card drivers, ???) and add some from VMS (keep file versions / purge). While at it, they could also do this on a much more secure way than before re-thinking the whole end user security.

Than I would be happy. Well, obviously this is not going to happen but I would have been nice. :)

I have big hopes for Google Fuchsia

<comment><USER27> > user space video card drivers

On macOS, video card drivers are userspace, in fact, every driver (kext) is userspace

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Every time I get irked with MacOS, or get annoyed with the iPad, I weigh moving back to Windows. Then I see threads like this…

<comment><USER29> Maybe the real problem is that the two major desktop OS are currently bad.

<comment><USER30> Hint: there is 3rd one

<comment><USER31> There is, but it's worse. Especially since GNOME 3. I know you can use MATE or Cinnamon, but it's not the default on any of the major platforms.

<comment><USER32> They technically have defaults, but when the difference for most distributions (e.g. Debian) is just checking a different box in the installer, it seems like a silly thing to complain about.

<comment><USER33> I think there's an assumption that the default DE gets more attention from the distro; it's more polished, and "just works" (or at least, something approaching the concept on Linux).

e.g. from what I remember, when installing xfce in debian, you get the ugly barebones defaults from upstream. Compare this to Xubuntu...

<comment><USER34> [https://ubuntu-mate.org](https://ubuntu-mate.org)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> So glad now I turned off Window's updates (because no matter what I did they kept installing when they shouldn't have).

I have been considering moving to linux for a while now because there's finally good alternatives for some of the apps I use, and I'm definitely going to start the move now.

I had all my user folders moved and this could have been me (and my backup drive just died too!). The user folders were actually part of the reason I disabled them. Every time, without fail, the moved user folders would get duplicated because Windows would recreate them at their default locations. I wouldn't be surprised if this bug wasn't related to that one.

<comment><USER36> A real Sophie's choice: have your data stolen by hackers because you're vulnerable, or have your data deleted by the patches that secure your system!

<comment><USER37> The former is blown out of proportion because the vast majority of vulnerabilities are only locally exploitable, and the rest is mostly "visit shady site in IE with default settings" with a tiny bit of "hackers can own your system if you connect it directly to the Internet and don't do anything other than leave it on." My thoughts on the above are, respectively, "meh", "why would you use IE with default settings" , and "yes I definitely need this fixed." Unfortunately Win10 doesn't give you that choice.

<comment><USER36> So you pick "have my data and identity stolen" over "my computer occasionally restarts itself while I'm asleep". Alright, good luck!

<comment><USER38> You missed the very true point they made about overstated vulnerabilities. The odds of actually having your data compromised due to not updating for a few weeks or even months, is low. Particularly if your browsing and computer usage doesn't involve downloading dodgy software and browsing to shady unfamiliar websites, and you're at least half aware of sensible computer use, password and login use.

<comment><USER36> This is hubris incarnate, the seatbelt argument all over again.

<comment><USER38> Poor analogy, and typical of the deferred-update paranoia crowd, thinking the worst and feeling exposed because Microsoft says you are in "critical danger".

A better analogy: You should keep your bicycle helmet on in the shower due to the slippery tiles and statistics of shower-related head injuries.

Or this...

Believe it or not, when you leave home without your umbrella, it may not rain. You know this, but you take your umbrella anyway. I choose not to.

<comment><USER36> The analogy was more than apt: a car crash is devastating, as is losing your identity, it's more likely than people tend to think, and the cost of protecting yourself against this devastating thing is relatively low.

If anything, the umbrella analogy wasn't great, because getting wet is a consequence of forgetting your umbrella, and that's _far_ from as devastating as having your identity stolen. Further, you getting wet doesn't create a negative network effect like having your computer hacked does by adding your computer to a nefarious botnet.

This isn't Reddit, you can agree that the comparison was solid, but that the conclusion was still wrong. No need to go into Internet argument mode; we can have a discussion. For example, your helmet analogy in the bathtub is a decent one, except for the fact that it costs _way_ more than running an update does to keep you safe.

Are you critically vulnerable all the time? No. Are you better equipped than Microsoft to judge which updates are important and which aren't? No. It's, as I said, the definition of hubris to think otherwise.

If you don't like how Windows does updates, don't use Windows -- lots of other great options.

Besides, the cost is _absurdly_ low to keep yourself safe. If you're making the choice to run an un-updated Windows machine that's connected to the Internet, you are driving without a seatbelt, and not only are you _literally_ risking your own livelihood, but you're also putting others at risk.

<comment><USER38> Try disengaging "worst case scenario" mode. You argument is hinged on seat belt catastrophe, loss of livelihood, identity theft, botnets, and general worst case computer doom.

Losing your livelihood because you didn't update Windows in a timely manner? That's beyond a joke. Besides, Anti-virus software would do a better job of preventing these worst case events.

The reason people have their identities stolen or computers hacked is mainly because of human error. People open attachments; people fail to identify scam emails and start engaging with criminals; people enter information willingly on websites they shouldn't, people put USB drives they find on the ground into their computers; people do dumb things and no "critical security update" is going to stop that.

Yes, forgetting your umbrella results in getting wet. Running with your logic, we need to extend the analogy. The rain gets on your watch causing it to malfunction and tells the wrong time, so you miss your train. You turn up late to the interview, you don't get the job, you can't pay the rent, you get kicked out, you're now homeless and living on the street. Really should have taken that umbrella.

<comment><USER36> It's not a joke, ransomware for example is real, and it's a _huge_ problem. If you know _anything_ about security you know that ransomware is on the rise and it's getting worse each year.

Malware infecting an insecure computer is not a "worst case scenario", this happens to millions of computers each year.

"Only" 6 million car accidents happen per year in the US, even though there were ~10 billion car trips over that same set of people and area, which makes the incidence rate 0.06%, so why bother with a seatbelt? It's "beyond a joke" to think you're going to get into an accident today!

This isn't a debate; keeping your system up to date is, by far, the _best_ way to stay safe from a _real_ threat. You can pretend it's not there all you want, but the rest of us are going to take care, and would appreciate if you didn't contribute to the sea of botnets. You make everyone less safe.

<comment><USER38> > _This isn 't a debate_

Be advised that you don't get to decide on whether this is or isn't a debate. You are attempting to re-frame the _debate_ to suit your precarious position.

This _debate_ as specified in the parent discussions, is about Microsoft enforcing updates on people without choice. This causes annoyance and even loss of work. The top comment describes Windows as an "an update engine that will sometimes also do computation for you". This is a significant and legitimate criticism that trumps your arm-flailing about malware (which as I said would be better defended with virus protection).

As the parent poster said, many of the vulnerabilities discovered are exploitable only locally, or under very specific and rare circumstances, yet are still flagged as "critical" and bundled with user interface updates.

Then you rode in on your horse, citing car accidents and seat belts, which really doesn't help in the context of having control over when system updates are performed. Nobody said "never update". It's about control over when those updates happen.

> _...but the rest of us are going to take care, and would appreciate if you > didn 't contribute to..._

You're having a hard enough time speaking for yourself, please don't branch out to speaking for others.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I keep Windows just for gaming so I am immune to this issue. Hell, I even wish Windows installation completely break so I can try Wine.

What I don't get about Windows Update is, that it requires multiple reboots. Why? Also it took long time to process something on first login after the update. What are they doing?

<comment><USER40> There is a teacher in the house and their relatively new laptop is a complete POS for many reasons, but the windows side of things is an abomination. It has to be opened for a few a while each week to let it download, restart and generally make a fool of itself. If you don't the software update debt compounds rapidly and it completely breaks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> It has never ceased to amaze me the abuse MS customers continue to tolerate.

Edit: Not that I'm suggesting Apple is any better. Proprietary software in general tends to exploit its users in various ways, if not initially, eventually.

<comment><USER7> I don't understand how having a data loss bug means Microsoft is "exploiting their users"

<comment><USER42> Anyone can make a mistake in making a new software update. But Microsoft, like any proprietary software vendor, is denying their users the right and ability to discover and fix problems for themselves, or to hire anyone to do it for them; Microsoft reserves this right exclusively to themselves, and thereby do their users a tremendous disservice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I have been running Windows since 3.11 and have never had any of the issues with Windows Update described in this thread since the XP days. Don't think these issues are common, just the vocal minority.

<comment><USER44> You're obviously blind then.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I've never had a issue with Windows Update, but it can sometimes take hours and I like to imagine wth it's doing. My theory is that Microsoft has acres of test computers, so that when I run an upgrade they spin up a computer that match mine, install all the apps and drivers I have, runs the update, and runs some automated tests ...

</comment><comment><USER46> I personally never used those folder for my documents/music/etc. It wasn't a problem until programs started putting their stuff in there. This is part of the "must-put-on-C:\" behavior you see in much win software that I loathe. A constant pain and reason that C:\ seems never to be big enough.

<comment><USER47> Funny thing..

What I heard - this problem (removing files from folders like Documents, Downloads) happens only when you actually move storage of these. Yes, you can move Documents folder into D: and things will work just fine. But this is where this bug will hit you.

I moved my Downloads folder, nothing much to loose here, but I'll surely do a backup of everything before updating.

<comment><USER48> We just dont use the documents folder. Create a folder on D ans save everything there. Just dont tell windows where your data is and you are fine :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> The only reason I use windows 10 is for gaming. The millisecond linux gaming is supported by all the games I love I will be paying whatever price necessary to drop windows for ever. I use OS X for work and find it a near perfect developer experience for my rather pedestrian use cases.

<comment><USER50> See if your games are supported by Steam Play (a.k.a. Proton).

[https://spcr.netlify.com](https://spcr.netlify.com)

</comment></comment><comment> le-mark Do businesses even use windows 10? Every company I've been at has been windows 7, only one was windows 8.1 a couple of years ago.

<comment><USER51> Windows 7 is pretty close to EOL now. Companies might not have migrated off it yet, but they're going to have basically no choice in short order. I doubt Microsoft are going to suddenly change how they handle updating the OS in the next year or so -- at the end of the day, there's no real competition for the business desktop -- so I expect we all have some fun and games to look forward to.

<comment><USER52> For what it's worth, I'm a home user still on Windows 7 plus a bit of Ubuntu. When Windows 7 finally hits EOL, that's it for Windows for me. After having had the displeasure of using family members' MacOS or newer Windows devices a few times, I'm out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> They probably just want to push their cloud services, so that you 'Never lose a file due to some broken update!' :-D

<comment><USER53> Windows 10 Licensing terms § 6 says "The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice."

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> I have a dual boot machine with windows 10 on a slow platter drive and ubuntu on a very fast SSD. I only ever launch windows to play games... and I hate it. I don't launch windows very often and as soon as I do it starts hammering the disk downloading and processing updates. Even before it tries to actually complete the update, it makes the computer almost unusable for an unpredictable period of time.

</comment><comment><USER55> I did upgrade to Windows 10 1809 and fortunately didn't run into any issues. However, I suspect there is a memory leak somewhere. After running Visual Studio for a while, almost my entire system memory was eaten but the total sum of memory for the running programs don't add up to the amount of "In use" memory.

<comment><USER47> This is a common thing. I'm not such tech person to go deep into the details, but it's usually ok if you get back that memory when you close everything.

I had thison Windows 7 with Opera (can't remember if it was 12 or newer one already).

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> It seems like they forget people pay for this crap. I wonder if there is a class action possible against them.

</comment><comment><USER57> I hope they get it fixed quickly and I hope they listen to user feedback more... I just hope we don't go back into old ways of years between service packs. I for one enjoy the frequent fixes - much better than those "Service pack" years of having to deal with crap for so long.

</comment><comment><USER58> I have a little Windows VM with a very small disk. It's so small that Windows Update can't run :)

</comment><comment><USER59> it seems Windows 10 was where the tide turned on mandatory / forced automatic, while also making it pretty difficult to disable (and when you do disable updates other issues can arise that have nothing to do w the windows update service ,although pretty rarely )

I think the reason Microsoft decided to force these auto updates with windows 10 is due to the bad rap they got over the years for security and vulns ( in their defense part of that was just simply due to the insane marketshare windows enjoyed for so long, and still does for the most part , although to a lesser degree than before).

</comment><comment><USER60> That's why we developed a product which main feature is to aid in installation of Windows 7 to new PCs:

[https://www.prime- expert.com/flashboot/features_v3/install-w...](https://www.prime- expert.com/flashboot/features_v3/install-windows7-to-new-laptop-or-new-pc/)

There's a growing community of users and developers who restrict themselves to Windows 7. Forever. Win7 EOL soon, so no updates from Microsoft? Fine. It's a feature. Updates from Microsoft are no good anyway.

</comment><comment> paul-sebastianm Just yesterday I was commenting about how Windows developers are still adjusting to the corporate's latest business idea, rolling releases and hopefully TDD. Now I'm sorry to have been so kind. This kind of shit shouldn't escape testing. Touching files that shouldn't be touched? Really? Is that how much Microsoft cares about the safety of their user's data?

</comment><comment><USER61> Why I refuse to have "upgrades" shoved down my throat on someone else's schedule.

</comment><comment><USER62> I'm still on the April update. Skipped July update after all the issues there - thinking I'll just wait for the October issue where they will _surely_ not make another mess of it.

Oh well, there's always 2019...

</comment><comment><USER63> Is it possible to use a firewall (pfsense or similar) to block all access to the Windows update and telemetry servers? Or will Windows just stop working after thinking it's offline long enough?

</comment><comment><USER64> Well I've been getting bluescreens on reboots since the last round. So yeah it's not been peachy lately

</comment><comment><USER65> I wish i read this just 30mins before :(

</comment><comment><USER66> I am using Asus A442uq, and the latest update made secure boot inactive. I had the laptop erased.

</comment><comment><USER67> If you aren't backing up your data, the data isn't that important.

<comment><USER68> I wonder if Windows File History (provided it was enabled before the update) could have helped with this problem. These days, it's one of the first things I install on Windows machines.

I had been very dependent on Time Machine before I switched back to Windows a few years ago, and I'm kinda surprised that MS doesn't push File History the same way Apple did with Time Machine. I don't see it mentioned very often when it comes to backing up data on Windows.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> How the mighty have fallen... :(

</comment><comment><USER70> Testing something like Windows/Windows updates at scale is hard. So bugs will happen. But deleting docs is gross.

I can imagine there was tense meeting somewhere in MS where the choice was made to stop the update. I would have liked to have been there...

<comment><USER71> If you're a company the size of Microsoft, "hard" just means "expensive." There is certianly no question that Microsoft is able to produce Windows updates that do not have these problems. Apple has been doing automatic updates for years - but we don't hear similar stories coming from that camp, because they put in the necessary QA effort.

<comment><USER72> Apple had a very similar bug in the initial release of Snow Leopard:

[https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-acknowledges-snow-leopard- da...](https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-acknowledges-snow-leopard-data-loss- issue/)</comment></comment></comment>


Django-SocialAuth - Login via twitter, facebook, google, etc. from single app - <AUTHOR> http://uswaretech.com/blog/2009/08/django-socialauth-login-via-twitter-facebook-openid-yahoo-google/ <comment><USER2> While this is certainly handy. I forsee lot's of problems for users typing their gmail password to autenthicate for other sites. Phishing has been around for a long time, and by using these authentication mechanisms it will only get easier.

For users it's not clear which site is legit.

This is legit: hxxps://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=lso&domain=Socialauth.uswaretech.net&anonSign=1&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Faccounts%2Fo8%2Fud%3Fst%3DBDKB7DbZLrOEjmE3c2kS

This is not: hxxps://www.google.com.evilsite.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=lso&domain=Socialauth.uswaretech.net&anonSign=1&continue=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Faccounts%2Fo8%2Fud%3Fst%3DBDKB7DbZLrOEjmE3c2kS

For the avarage user, logging in means, click on the bookmark, see if a loginform pops up, log in. Now it's go to random site, get asked for your gmail password, and type it or else 'no cookie for you'.

That being said, I have no solution for the problem.

<comment><USER3> Chrome/IE8 actually do a reasonable job of addressing this by greying out everything but the domain in the address bar. Its something I'd like to see in FF -- if anyone knows of an add-on to do this let me know.

<comment><USER4> Locationbar²!

<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4014>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> That's pretty sweet! The demo worked well for me on everything but Facebook, where it reloaded the page within the facebook popup, a littttle odd. This is a great start, though, for developing services that integrate with the API's of these services. Psyched to try it integrating it into an app.

<comment><USER6> Can you try it and let me know what address it shows in the popup bar? If you log a bug on github, we will definitely try to fix it.

<comment><USER7> You're setting the base path wrong for xd_receiver.htm would be my guess. FB connect is redirecting to [http://socialauth.uswaretech.net/accounts/login/?next=/../xd...](http://socialauth.uswaretech.net/accounts/login/?next=/../xd_receiver.htm)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> One challenge I have with all these logins options is that it becomes hard to remember which provider you logged in with. We have an issue already with Facebook connect and standard Django auth of duplicate accounts for a single user being created. Often times merging these can be rough. Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to this problem?

</comment><comment><USER9> How integrated is this to Django? Would it be easy to adapt to other framework (I'm thinking of Pylons). I'm working on a little website and would love to add this functionality without switching to Django.

<comment><USER6> Pretty closely integrated, as I wanted a seamless experience as close to normal django auth in part. But talking to providers is generic. Let me know if you would need my help porting this to Pytlons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Wow I was looking for precisely this demo. Rockin'

<comment><USER11> Depending on what you want it for, I've had good experiences with django- authopenid ( bitbucket.org/benoitc/django-authopenid ).

It doesn't have the facebook or twitter, but it does work well with most openid providers (google, yahoo, etc). Plus, it lets users go ahead and just create a normal login if they don't want to use openid.

There's an example at openid-example.e-engura.org if you're interested.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> can you still login with django.contrib.auth?

<comment><USER6> Yes, these are just exposed as authentication_backends, any existing ones will work alongside.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Let's start working on one for Rails

<comment><USER14> I'm already working on a similar authentication system for a rails app and this just really motivated me to release it as a plugin...

That said, I'm sure lots of other Rails developers have already built their own solution. I'm also sure some are more mature than mine (i.e. in production). Isn't uservoice.com backed by Rails? Their social authentication is so pretty Google uses it as a demo.</comment></comment>


Why the Instagram founders really quit - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/interface/2019/4/17/18411363/why-instagram-founders-quit-hamburger-button-location-tracking <comment><USER3> This article was based on another one written by Wired. [0] That much longer article is well worth the read for a more in-depth look at the politics and challenges that Facebook has gone through recently.

[0] [https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-mark- zuckerberg-15-mont...](https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-mark- zuckerberg-15-months-of-fresh-hell/)

<comment><USER4> The linked Verge article has some strange editorialization in it. I find it confusing, because I'm not sure what they're getting at.

> Systrom then immediately peaced out for a few months of paternity leave.

> With Systrom on leave, Facebook began testing location tracking and a > disgusting hamburger button inside Instagram, offending Systrom's delicate > sensibilities.

Is the author saying that Systrom was being to sensitive about Facebook's demands? Or are they making fun of Facebook here? It seems like the author tried to inject some attitude into the piece without nailing down their point of view.

<comment><USER5> The primary definition of delicate: fine in texture, quality, construction, etc.: a delicate lace collar.

I read it as a compliment.

If he had said "delicate ego" it'd be a different story.

<comment><USER6> Delicate is synonymous with "fragile". Delicate lace collars are fine when in appropriate context, but that context is fairly narrow (when you know it will be protected enough to survive).

As for people, I don't think our culture values fragility in an individual. Conversely, we definitely do value resilience. I'm not sure of a case where you could refer to a physical or mental aspect of someone as delicate or fragile (when it's relative to the norm where it's not) and it comes out positive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Instagram remains enormously popular because it's not exclusively 1:1 mutual relationships, has a minimal interface/feature set, and most importantly isn't easily susceptible to outrage and anger gawking like twitter/FB are.

They can keep adding hamburgers and FB thirst traps but as long as they don't mess with central idea (big photos only with captions) they won't cede share any time soon.

<comment><USER8> > FB thirst traps

What is this referring to?

<comment><USER7> They've given more and more nudges over the years to funnel people from IG back to FB. I have no idea but doubtful it's working, just smells of desperation.

>badged notifications inside Instagram begging people to open Facebook being maybe the most prominent example.

[https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/25/17903556/instagram- founde...](https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/25/17903556/instagram-founders- quit-kevin-systrom-mike-krieger-facebook)

<comment><USER9> Facebook designs its dark patterns to have the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face.

On some level it's actually a minor blessing because they're all so grating and obvious. If they had any sense of tact they'd probably do a better of job of lulling people into indifference about them the way Amazon and Google do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Zuckerberg was intent on making him miserable enough that he would quit" \- I thought only the lowliest managers keep doing this bullshit and in bigger companies they are more grown up and they have a spine. Politics are the ugliest of all the crap that one has to take in the IT world. And no-one can avoid it. You can be in the lowest position they will still drag you into. I feel bad for Systrom. I really do.

<comment><USER11> No sorry, the bigger company the more nasty they get. I used to work for Oracle and IBM and it blew my mind how grownups with children would play childish games and jump at each other throats at every occasion.

I also work for less known company with revenue of $100MM and was the same stuff. My manager used to tell me: If you have family [to go home to after being at the office for 12 hours] don't work here.

<comment><USER12> > the bigger company the more nasty they get.

Yes. This is why I strongly prefer working for small companies. They tend to offer much more interesting work with a much better working environment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm surprised there is not one mention of the word "vesting" in the entire article. Systrom left six years after the acquisition (likely full vested) and shortly after returning from paternity leave.

<comment><USER14> A 6 year vesting schedule would be highly unusual. AFAIK it's usually 2 (or maybe up to 4) years after an acquisition. Therefore I don't think that this was a factor in his decision.

<comment><USER15> I don't have a citation here but I think facebook tried to create a slow vesting schedule for these aquihires so they would have golden shackles

<comment><USER16> Is this just your assumption? The WhatsApp acquisition was pretty famously on a 4 year vest [0], not sure why IG would have been different.

[0] [https://www.businessinsider.com/whatsapp-founder-jan-koum- re...](https://www.businessinsider.com/whatsapp-founder-jan-koum-rest-and- vest-for-450-million-facebook-stock-2018-8)

<comment><USER17> It's also not uncommon for companies to drop that and have majority vest quicker to get rid of founders faster (provide a good encouraging deal) - especially if they dont play ball.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It sounds like despite the criticisms in the article, Instagram has done it right. Everyone still uses the app, with no backlash the way Snap did. My wife and all her friends are using it like crazy still, it's sometimes the only way I can get in contact with her. So Facebook deserves a lot of credit for that, despite the tone of the article.

<comment><USER19> I'm just a single data point, but my IG usage has dropped considerably over the last year or so. Too many ads, the non-chronological feed, and "feed clutter" (follow suggestions, Stories reminders) have ruined it for me.

<comment><USER20> Counterpoint: I love the Stories feature. Stories are for dramatically different content than the primary feed. They are for the mildly-interesting, curious little joys that permeate our lives, but are not interesting enough to merit documentation for posterity. And yet, it is still different that the type of content you see on Snap because the audience is different.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Not seeing the meat on the bone here. It's quite normal at large companies for interview requests to be approved by someone. It's quite normal for infrastructure, support, tooling, resources to get moved around a lot. It's quite normal for people in one department to be irked at the (perceived) extra attention another department receives.

I'm not FB fan but I'm pretty sure MZ isn't jealous of the growth of anything.

<comment><USER22> Yeah this sounds like trying to dramatize what is normal business operations. There's going to be politics at any company larger than a sole-proprietorship. The fact they stayed for 6 years is honestly a remarkable retention assuming this is at least 2 years beyond vesting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> So they crippled a better performing product to protect a lesser product - <USER2> rather to protect some egos.

I refuse to believe they are that stupid.

<comment><USER24> Facebook app probably has better ad revenue potential?

I just opened up instagram and scrolled through for a bit and I didn't see a single ad. Seems very different from the Facebook experience.

<comment><USER25> I don't know which Instagram you're using, but every two or three posts for me is an ad. The "second person's story" when watching stories is an ad. Instagram has, by far, more ads than any other app that I use.

<comment><USER24> Perhaps it depends on your average engagement with the app (the official iOS one, to be clear). I only open it once a month or so, and follow only a few dozen accounts. Perhaps it doesn't know enough about me to target ads or there is some algorithm that avoids showing ads when you come back after a long break.

<comment><USER26> Don't-scare-new-users-away mode. Ease you back in with a gradual increase in ads the more engagement they see from you?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Who wants Mark out? Too many critical articles from many angles recently, somebody on FB's board must be eager to get rid of him.

<comment><USER28> At this point Zuckerburg has pissed off much of America. Doesn't have to be an insider; there are plenty of outsiders that would love to see him gone and can bankroll a few media hatchet jobs.

It probably also doesn't help that Facebook has turned most media outlets into digital sharecroppers fighting for reshares, and they know it. Big Tech in general is not popular within the media, because they've essentially destroyed the media's business model and took most of it for themselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> How much did FB save on due options by forcing founders of their big acquisitions out? I think for WhatsApp it was like 800 million that was conditional on the monetization.

</comment><comment><USER30> Hmm. When in that timeline was it that Instagram switched to "algorithmic feeds"? That one really annoys me with no end and I can't imagine that this was supported by the "old" Instagram leadership.

</comment><comment><USER31> The introduction of the article discuss the title, then it detours to analyze social media, Twitter, Russia, China. Looks like 3/4 social media articles stitched together

<comment><USER32> That is intentional - it's a regular column about social media:

"The Interface is a daily column about the intersection of social media and democracy. Subscribe to the newsletter here."

The headline is the leading story and the final paragraph before "Democracy" brings the story to a close.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I predict that Zuckerburg, when he's old and seeking new prestige, will abandon his (dirty) capitalistic activities and take on the philanthropist persona that many other tech giants (who we often forget the dirty methods they used to reach their heights) have.

The EU, with its often absurd laws (re: link tax, cookie rules) may be the only threat to the juggernaut that Facebook is (and by extension, the power that a cutthroat nerd holds over others).

As for TFA, by now we should not be surprised. This is what happens when you sell your company to Facebook. You hopefully get a nice cash-out, which maybe you can use to do more and better things, but you certainly give over your dear creation for ultimately dark purposes.

<comment><USER34> Back when his reputation wasn't so low: [https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mark- zu...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg- giving-away-99-of-his-facebook-shares-2015-12)

<comment><USER12> Non-amp link: [https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-giving- away-...](https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-giving-away-99-of- his-facebook-shares-2015-12)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Perhaps the founders were really just dead weight and were forced out because they contributed no value to the product.

What's so unique about instagram? Only thing I can think of is that it's popular. It doesn't seem to be novel from a technology standpoint. There doesn't seem to be any secret sauce for making it generate cash. What would you say, the founders did successfully after the acquisition? Given unlimited power, what could they have done?

I think the answer is not much. The founders did a good job at getting some capital and making a popular product. Mission accomplished. Time for them to move on.

<comment><USER7> It's popular because it's not an enormous junk drawer of features that tries to be everything to everyone.

Their success was in keeping a design that was brainlessly simple and easy to use/understand.

<comment><USER35> Well, then I suppose they weren't needed any more. A full time C-level/VP- level position who's mere job is to say "Don't change anything!" doesn't seem very useful.</comment></comment></comment>


IPhone 2.2 Update Now Available - <AUTHOR>

Check iTunes.  The associated SDK update is also available from developer.apple.com <comment><USER2> It has some fixes for the Japanese market that might really help its adoption. Emoji input is now supported and emails from non-iphone users containing Emoji now display (at least the text displays, not sure about the Emoji). Before the text was not even readable, a massive failure, considering it means most people could not read a large portion of their emails.

</comment><comment><USER3> I got the update, but how do I download podcasts over the air? I don't see the option. I want this one for example <http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/>

<comment><USER3> Wow this really sucks. I can't just enter a URL anywhere? I have to use their categories!? Worthless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Don't forget and install this on your jailbroken phone just yet-- apparently it updates the 3g baseband, and the 2g tool won't be ready for a while.

<http://blog.iphone-dev.org/>

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't see a new version of the iPhone SDK. Does the SDK not care what version you're running? I thought it only "liked" versions 2.0 and 2.1 of the firmware?

<comment><USER6> The new version of the SDK is now available for download. 1.56GB. I've never quite figured out why the SDK has to include a whole new version of the entire Apple developer toolchain with it, but there you have it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Street View in Maps is slick (very smooth panning and zooming), but not very user discoverable: click a pin, then click the little person icon.

</comment><comment><USER8> I wonder how long it will be until image-handling vulnerability rates drop below 1 per year.

</comment><comment><USER9> Anyone got a link with a list of the update features?

<comment><USER9> To answer my own question (I wish I'd been able to copy from the iTunes window :( ):

This update contains many bug fixes and improvements, including the following: * Enhancements to Maps -Google Street View -public transit and walking directions -display address of dropped pins -share location via email * Enhancements to Mail -resolved isolated issues with Schedule fetching of email * Improved stability and performance of Safari * Podcasts are now available for download in iTunes application (over Wi-Fi and cellular network) * Decrease in call set-up failures and drops * Improved sound quality of visual voicemail messages * Pressing the Home button from any Home screen takes you to the first Home screen * Preference to turn on/off auto-correction in Keyboard Settings

...

For information on the security content of this update, please visit this website: <http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1222>

<comment><USER10> I suppose the removal of Podcaster is now explained by the new ability to download podcasts from iTunes. Podcaster would essentially be killed by now but why didn't they let the developer sell his app for a couple of months? It sounds like it would have been good for everybody.

Good update though!

<comment><USER9> Then the people that bought it would have complained that Apple let them pay for a feature that came out for a free a couple of months later.

That's the problem with secret roadmaps.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The psychology and biology of gifted children and highly intelligent people - <AUTHOR> https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html <comment><USER2> Anon84, can you explain why you felt this was valuable to post?

This seems to be a random blogspot article, posted by someone with no real accreditation, advocating junk science. Why bring it to HN?

Edit: I'm serious, I really want a actual answer here. Downvoting doesn't make my curiosity go away.

<comment><USER3> For those of us with silly (>160) IQ, sometimes life is not very pleasant:

* Incorrectly diagnosed with ADHD, medicated without consent * Forced into special-needs and Talented/Gifted programs * Incorrectly diagnosed with autism, incorrectly diagnosed with OCD, incorrectly diagnosed with psychopathy

It would be nice to know why these things happen. There's not enough of us to form a good representative class, and yet I read the OP and notice 11/14 boxes ticked for me.

There are other reports of similar patterns [0][1]. This isn't isolated. The original article's hypothesis may be complete bunk; it's likely not right simply because it's too short and simple to be right. But those first few paragraphs are a pattern that those certain few of us will always recognize.

[0] [http://prometheussociety.org/wp/articles/the- outsiders/](http://prometheussociety.org/wp/articles/the-outsiders/)

[1] [http://polymatharchives.blogspot.com/2015/01/the- inappropria...](http://polymatharchives.blogspot.com/2015/01/the- inappropriately-excluded.html)

<comment><USER2> Looking back now, I feel I responded too harshly last night. It was late and I was tired.

I have more to say on the topic but cannot take the time to write it out at the moment. I may edit this later, if I have time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > _Here are some traits gifted kids typically display, that have little to do > with cognition:_

The listed traits, which range from looking young or "unisex" to being clumsy and liking video games, seem to have no grounding in research, polling, or anything else. Did the author just make up this list?

<comment><USER5> Indeed, based around their children. Height is positively correlated with IQ [https://www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2014-03-genetic- link-height-iq.amp) Not negatively as suggested by article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have no idea what my IQ might be. But, this all seems very, very familiar to me.

</comment><comment><USER7> This lends credibility (the graph) to something I've always suspected, ESFJ's tend to be dumb.

Before anyone argues, intelligence within each personality type is a bell curve. If you have less people at the top, it means the average is lower, or the standard deviation is lower, or both. So either they are dumber on average, or they are more average on average, or both.

Why do I care? Just a random thought I had.</comment>


Moukolaba-Doudou National Park, near Gamba, in Pictures - <AUTHOR> http://dkortephoto.com/wordpress/

<comment><AUTHOR> _Stillness grips a lagoon in the heat and humidity of a rainy season afternoon. Not a breeze stirs the canopy. Even the crickets and cicadas have gone silent, waiting for a break in the stifling atmosphere._

Some of this is very poetic. And the photos are simply beautiful.</comment>


Ask HN: What is the fastest way to build  an api for mobile back end? - <AUTHOR> If you were going to build a consumer mobile app as fast as possible, as a one-man or one-woman dev team, what technologies and tools would you use to build out the server side? Say you have 1 week to put together an MVP.
One answer is that one should use the technologies he/she is most familiar with, but what would you recommend to skilled engineers who are most experienced with client development?
Specifically, are there tools that significantly speed up the api development process, e.g. scaffolding tools, or stuff like Amazon API Gateway + Lambda? <comment><USER2> Depends on what the requirements are. If its a CRUD backend, its hard to beat Ruby on Rails on Heroku. I tend to shy away from backends as a service because of situations like Parse shutting down. They're worth considering if its a short term project for a client.

</comment><comment><USER3> For an MVP you might be able to write specifications in [https://apiblueprint.org/tools.html](https://apiblueprint.org/tools.html) format and then have the tools create (mock) the server for you.</comment>


Ask HN: Competitor is Copyright Infringer. Remedy? - <AUTHOR>

I have a little bit of an issue with a competing website. They are selling advertisements around copyrighted content that they are copy/pasting from newspapers from around the world. This is easy enough to do, set yourself up some google alerts and as long as you know CTRL+C and CTRL+V, I suppose you can make a few hundred a month in advertising.
I've been working hard on my website for much longer than this competitor, and I'm honest about my content, I write it myself. Unfortunately, to the naked eye, it appears as though I don't do quite as good a job as the other guy who knows how to copy and paste.
Aside from emailing the editors of all these newspapers (we're talking 25-50 newspapers from at least 5 different countries), is there a way for me to gain the upper hand in this situation, without sacrificing my scruples? <comment><USER2> >Aside from emailing the editors of all these newspapers (we're talking 25-50 newspapers from at least 5 different countries), is there a way for me to gain the upper hand in this situation, without sacrificing my scruples?

Where is your competitor based? Which jurisdictions are valid wrt copyright infringement? How do you know they haven't applied for rights (eg via a clearing house)?

Note that there are still some places in the world that are not signed up to Berne/TRIPS and the like international treaties. A person (or presumably a web server) based there who (on which) compiles such would be untouchable on copyright infringement. Moreover, many places allow excerpts/snippets to be used and the definition of "commercial use" varies around the world.

I suspect all you can really do is improve your content or put money before morality.

>I suppose you can make a few hundred a month in advertising

A few hundred what? US Dollars, GBP, Euro, ... why is this important to you?

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry for the ambiguity.

United States. US companies, US servers, US dollars.

I don't "Know" that they haven't applied for the rights but the manner in which the content drips in it is pretty obvious that they are just harvesting what they can come up with based on a google alert on our niche. Copying photos and text in their entirety from these newspapers. I find it hard to believe that they are getting copyright permission within 24 hours of the article appearing on the newspaper's website.

The Newspaper sources are based in US, Canada, UK, NZ, Australia.

<comment><USER2> Personally I would send a message to each of the largest players (or most notable for protecting online content) in each of the jurisdictions requesting to use their content in the same manner as company X - that you too would like to post their stories and images immediately after release - and requesting what it would cost for you to be licensed to do the same.

If you're serious then you should send the request by post using registered mail. Probably marked something like "FAO copyright licensing department (legal)".

Either they give you terms that are agreeable or they say something along the lines of "when hell freezes over" and you've appraised them of the actions of your competitor.

You might want to check the sources for the stories, perhaps your competitor is just getting AP or Reuters alerts and licensing off the wire?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> If they copy any of _your_ content, then you can send a DMCA notice to their ISP. And if they're doing what you say they are, then they'll do that soon enough. You may be able to figure out who their ISP is using tracert. You can also notify the sites they're plagiarizing from, and get them to do the same.

If they file a DMCA counter-notice, or pop back up on a different ISP, then you'll have to go to court to get rid of them. That might or might not be worth it, depending whether they have money to sue for, how difficult they are to track down, and how much your lawyer charges.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> PS they dont have a DMCA filing.

<comment><USER4> Been getting ideas from Righthaven?

<http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/righthaven/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Had never heard of them before now, thanks for the link. Interesting. I dont really want to get entangled with this, i'd just like to have a level playing field. Same site has sniped content of mine in the past as well. More frustrating than anything else.

<comment><USER4> The thing is, it takes more than "copyrighted content" in order to be actionable. I mean, you can sue anybody for anything in US courts, but it's not apparent from your question that they are taking entire articles, which makes a big difference to the kinds of options you have to deal with it.

If it's entire articles _of content for which you hold copyright_ , you can certainly send a DMCA Takedown notice to their ISP and start the ball rolling that way. Warning: may require lawyer. If they _aren't_ taking whole pieces, then your course of action can get murkier and will definitely become more expensive.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Open Team Communication Translates to Higher Shareholder Return - <AUTHOR> http://web.hbr.org/email/archive/dailystat.php?date=092011

<comment><USER2> I totally agree. Open Team Communication is essential for a business to sustain innovation and growth. If a team member notices a flaw in a product, he should feel comfortable to speak up to improve the product, otherwise nothing will change and ultimately the product won't be as successful.</comment>