Geneva drive - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_drive <comment><AUTHOR> Original poster here. I thought you good people would find the Geneva drive interesting. It is so simple and elegant; similar in spirit to the elegance of a beautiful algorithm.

For further reading on the Geneva drive... don't miss the _spherical_ Geneva drive design, illustrated in figure 9-3:

[http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/k/kmoddl/pdf/002_010.pdf](http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/k/kmoddl/pdf/002_010.pdf)

Although not Geneva drive related, if you want to combine your passion of horology with human spaceflight, you will truly enjoy "John Glenn's Heuer":

[http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Glenn.html](http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Glenn.html)

Also, thank you all for the great, related links!

<comment><USER2> Reminds me of all the crazy gears they used in mechanical computers [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4)

<comment><USER3> To be honest, at first I saw this post and thought, "how is a simple post of the Geneva drive mechanism news?". But after reading some of the followup and various links, I've definitley changed my opinion. Some amazing mechanical engineering in here. Thanks for this great video!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Such a nice hack. If you like this, you might be interested in "Five Hundred and Seven Mechanical Movements", freely available on google books [0], which I found on HN a couple of months ago.

[0]: [http://google.com/books?id=vOhIAAAAMAAJ](http://google.com/books?id=vOhIAAAAMAAJ)

<comment><USER5> You can also find animations for many of the movements here: [http://507movements.com/](http://507movements.com/)

<comment><USER6> Also Cornell's KMODDL, I suppose start here:

[http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/resources.php](http://kmoddl.library.cornell.edu/resources.php)

<comment><USER7> Thanks for the link. I've had both 507 Mechanical Movements and 1800 Mechanical Movements for quite some time now. This seems like a great reference for mechanisms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I met the Geneva drive when I was trained in servicing IBM 514 and 519 reproducing punches[1], in the mid-70s when these machines were on the way out. A 514 could reproduce a deck of punch cards[2] at 100 cards/minute. A punched card was fed from the "read hopper" and a blank one from the "punch hopper" and moved through the machine under steel feed rollers that were given intermittent rotation by a Geneva gear.

Driven by the Geneva, the feed rollers would move the cards the width of one of their 12 rows, then stop. On the read side, that row was under a gang of 80 little bronze wire brushes. On the punch side, the row was over a gang of 80 sharp little steel punches. When the cards stopped a pulse of current went through the brushes. If there was a hole in the card on the read side, current flowed on to one of 80 little solenoids. The solenoid would yank a bell-crank that pushed a punch through the blank card.

The punches withdrew, the Geneva swung its next lobe, and the cards advanced to the next row. Twelve rows per card, 100 c/m. It was quite noisy despite heavy sound insulation on the insides of the covers, a distinct brrruup, brrruup, brrruup overlaid with a general mechanical roar.

[1][http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/reproducer.html](http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/reproducer.html) [2][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blue-punch-card-front- hori...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png)

</comment><comment><USER9> If you love both watch mechanisms and incredible feats of "traditional" machining, I highly recommend George Daniels' "Watchmaking." Not only is it a beautiful coffee table book but it takes the reader through modern (Swiss lever) mechanical watches all the way, from concepts to workshop design to machining to assembly. Even if you don't end up reading the whole thing the diagrams are wonderful to flip through over and over again.

</comment><comment><USER10> While the article states that its name derives from an early use in mechanical watches, the modern mechanical watch is far more likely to use a deadbeat escapement for its intermittent motion. [1]

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escapement)

<comment><USER11> The 1949 Hamilton video "How a watch works" [1] is probably worth a look for anyone interested in more information on timekeeping mechanics.

Bless the 50's... from a time where education videos actually tried to educate.

[1] [http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/usefulsoftware/KIES/JSP](http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/usefulsoftware/KIES/JSP)

<comment><USER12> Not sure what's in your link, in any case here's a Youtube version: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQd-0YXqmR0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQd-0YXqmR0)

<comment><USER11> Hilarious. Sorry about that, obviously pasted completely the wrong buffer. Your video is exactly the one I was going for, though potentially this [1] is a better quality version.

[1] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=508-rmdY4jQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=508-rmdY4jQ)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Thanks for the post. Watching that animation reminded what pleasure could be derived by just watching simple mechanism in action e.g. union joint, differential gear, rotary engine etc.

<comment><USER14> I can clearly remember the hypnotizing spell casted by the Lego differential gear on my 8year old brain. It lasted for weeks.... Come to think of it, I actually became an engineer....

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Is there a drive that does the opposite? A drive that converts intermittent rotary motion to continuous rotation? I never studied this sort of thing in school, unfortunately.

<comment><AUTHOR> _Is there a drive that does the opposite? A drive that converts intermittent rotary motion to continuous rotation?_

From the perspective of a mechanical watch, there is a component known as the _mainspring_. It is a spring that stores energy from either manual winding or automatic winding.

With manual winding, turning the watch's crown to wind the mainspring is an intermittent, rotary motion. Alternatively, with automatic winding, a rotary weight that moves intermittently (e.g., when the wearer's arm is moved) is used to wind the mainspring.

In either winding scenario, manual or automatic, the result is that intermittent, rotary motion causes energy to be stored in the mainspring, which is then subsequently available to provide for continuous rotation of the watch's mechanics.

<comment><USER16> Great answer.

I caught myself thinking along the lines of "of course it's not possible, that would be preposterous!", but as you say, a watch spring mechanism does exactly this.

The key concept here is "stores energy".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Stop by the Museum of Science in Boston to see a whole working wall of these sorts of mechanisms, or just check out the videos here:

[http://pie.exploratorium.edu/scrapbook/mechanisms/](http://pie.exploratorium.edu/scrapbook/mechanisms/)

The Geneva Movement is here: [http://pie.exploratorium.edu/scrapbook/mechanisms/52.html](http://pie.exploratorium.edu/scrapbook/mechanisms/52.html)

</comment><comment><USER18> Thank you for posting this. You've just thrown me back 20 years in time, when I was a young film projectionist in a cinema. The projector we had used this mechanism to flash the images on the celluloid at 24fps instead of one continuous stream of light.

And, I just realised I'm not so young anymore...

<comment><USER19> I was also a projectionist and I had to rebuild intermittent movements a few times when we couldn't get a new one fast enough. I was the head projectionist for three years and we only lost one at a eight screen theater. But the theater across town that was owed by the same chain went through a few a month. But I also made sure the projector-head actually had oil in them and the other theater didn't seem to care.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> If you liked this, you should love this series about vintage (analog) fire control computers: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aH-M3PzM0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8aH-M3PzM0) (part 1; other parts in Youtube suggestions).

<comment><USER21> I was going to look those up and post them, but you beat me to it. Until I watched those videos some months back, I had no idea such mechanisms had ever existed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> A link to other amazing Greek designs that often get overlooked - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology)

</comment><comment><USER23> Friend of mine has used it in her creation

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHiIVPdOL7Y&feature=player_de...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHiIVPdOL7Y&feature=player_detailpage#t=92)

(bottom right)

</comment><comment><USER24> Another cool piece of mechanics this reminded me of: the Master Lock Speed Dial ([https://toool.nl/images/e/e5/The_New_Master_Lock_Combination...](https://toool.nl/images/e/e5/The_New_Master_Lock_Combination_Padlock_V2.0.pdf)). I think there's an animation of the internals somewhere out there, too.

</comment><comment><USER25> I have a question about these kinds of drives. Don't these depend on the fact that no one is moving and wiggling the whole mechanism? It seems to me like if the red gear with the slots were to move just a bit out of the way, it'd mess up the entire mechanism.

<comment><USER26> The red gear is held in place via the axle, and isn't free to rotate because of the crescent shaped portion on the drive wheel. The spoke on the drive wheel catches the driven wheel before/simultaneous to the crescent rotating out of the way and freeing the driven wheel to move.

<comment><USER25> Oh wow, I see now. The green circular part pretty much locks the crescent and thus the red gear into place. That's why there is a gap in the circular part where the gear is supposed to turn. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I'm fascinated, borderline in love with gears, cams and engines, such as rotary [http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/C.J.Sangwin/howroundcom/roundness/...](http://web.mat.bham.ac.uk/C.J.Sangwin/howroundcom/roundness/applications.html) or others (I found fun ones on youtube but lost the urls).

If anyone knows reference or current research about their mathematical side I'd be glad to read it.

</comment><comment><USER28> #212 [http://google.com/books?id=vOhIAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&...](http://google.com/books?id=vOhIAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)

</comment><comment><USER29> As a McMaster engineer, that was cool to see the Iron Ring clock on that page. I knew it existed, but forgot about it until I clicked.

</comment><comment><USER30> On thing I really appreciate about the Geneva Drive is the built in acceleration ramp up/down of the pin engagement. Beautiful.

</comment><comment><USER31> I would love to learn about clockwork - even if only using CAD (although actually getting to make something would be even better) - however have been unable to find any resources for learning about it. Does anyone know of any good guides for introducing horology/clockwork manufacturing to beginners and explaining how to get started?

<comment><USER6> Its kind of big, like "teach me about computers". You can learn a lot from practical applications. I find these blueprints and finished clocks extremely aesthetically pleasing and instructive:

[http://www.lisaboyer.com/Claytonsite/Claytonsite1.htm](http://www.lisaboyer.com/Claytonsite/Claytonsite1.htm)

I have no connection other than owning some of the plans and very slowly in the process of building one of the simplest clocks, one with a classic Verge escapement. I wanted specifically to build a retro Verge escapement and I don't know enough to advise if that's the best choice for a noob, unless you've also got a bug to build a Verge...

If you're willing to spend a ridiculous amount of money (like $1 per page!) "My own right time" by Philip Woodward could be a reasonable book to start. Borrow it at the library or interlibrary loan. One thing I learned from the book is the spouses of time nuts are apparently at least as tolerant as the spouses of ham radio and computer nuts (which is saying a heck of a lot).

This is an area where I know enough, to know I only know enough to be dangerous, so if anyone has better information they should respond.

(Edited to add I would consider clockmaking to be a separate craft from metal machining or wood butchering or 3d printing and would not advise trying to learn both at the same time, unless you're very patient. I think learning fine woodworking and clockmaking at the same time would be highly challenging. Or machining and clockmaking, etc.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Another interesting property is that unlike a regular pair of meshed gears, this can only transfer power in one direction. Swapping the input and output shafts won't work.

</comment><comment><USER33> Check out "u.s navy vintage fire control computers (part 2)" on YouTube for similar devices.

</comment><comment><USER34> That's what I call pure genius.

</comment><comment><USER35> Nice post! Thanks for sharing!</comment>


Ask HN: what non technical books changed your life ? - <AUTHOR>

what books improved your life ? <comment><USER2> "How to Win Friends and Influence People." by Dale Carnegie.

Back in 1980 when I was 19, I was an introverted, anti-social nerd and pretty much unable to engage with people at all. My long-suffering girlfriend (I'm still amazed I had one - can't say what she saw in me, although I was nice to people) of about 12 months standing nailed my feet to the floor and said - "You _really_ need to learn to get along with people."

Taking this as a challenge, a puzzle to solve (my _forte_ ), I went to find a textbook on how to get along with people and found HtWFaIP. Yes, the cynical can treat it as a manual for manipulation. Certainly the sociopathic can use it as the basis for their Machiavellian schemes.

But for me it was a lifeline, a way to survive in a world where you need to interact with people.

</comment><comment><USER3> Questions like this always see a bit odd to me, because, as Shakespeare reminds us, "the readiness is all".

The books that _really_ changed my life were able to change my life because I was in a position to be changed by them. Someone else reading the same books might have no result at all.

And, I suspect (but can't prove) that some of this is related to age as well; I can't say I know of anyone whose outlook has been radically altered by a book they read past the age of 30.

Now, that doesn't mean that I haven't had my life improved in small but significant way by books I've read in the past couple decades-- but the effects are nowhere as significant as those texts from my teenage years, and early 20s.

</comment><comment><USER4> Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell

Brave New World - Aldous Huxley

Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury

The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand

Foundation Trilogy -Isaac Asimov

The Game: Penetrating The Secret Society of Pickup Artists - Neil Strauss

The Law - Frédéric Bastiat

Thus Spoke Zarathustra - Friedrich Nietzsche

The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress - Robert Heinlein

Cyberpunk: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier - Katie Hafner & John Markoff

It's Not How Good You Are, Its How Good You Want to Be: The World's Best Selling Book - Paul Arden

Are ones that stand out. I'm sure a lot of other books helped shape my worldview though, especially ones I read as a kid. The "Tom Swift Jr." adventures, the "Three Investigators" stories, the "Nancy Drew" and "The Hardy Boys" ones, and those "Encyclopedia Brown" books all stand out in my memory as probably being influential. And later in life, I'd say Dean Koontz' work has had something of an impact.

</comment><comment><USER5> "The Now Habit" by Neil Fiore. Much closer to the roots of productivity (inner motivation) than other books on this topic. If you liked "Getting Things Done" or "7 Habits" but somehow cannot implement the advice then TNH might help you.

</comment><comment><USER6> On my personal bookshelf, next to my Bible, are:

Sun Tzu's "Art of War" - a fundamental philosophical work for life management

Stephen Covey's "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" - well-known, enough said.

Felix Dennis' "How to Get Rich" - the best book that I have ever read about how the world really works

Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" - a timeless classic.

</comment><comment><USER7> Stephen Covey's "7 Habits of Highly Effective People"

</comment><comment><USER8> My elementary school books.</comment>


Basic Portable Executable File in Assembly - <AUTHOR> http://snippets-samples-examples.com/programming/assembly/basic-portable-executable-assembly/

<comment><USER2> The website says you can opt-out of the data collection they do, but they don't give you any way to actually do that. Is that an evil design pattern or what? Opt-in by default is one thing, but lying about being able to opt-out is just Comcast-level chicanery.

</comment><comment><USER3> 442 lines of code for a "Hello World".

Is that a new record? The comments aren't even particularly verbose.

<comment><USER4> The entire structure of the EXE file is built in assembly, headers and all, and while the comments aren't verbose, there are a lot of them.</comment></comment>


Confessions of a Former Apocalypse Survival Guide Writer - <AUTHOR> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/i-used-to-write-apocalypse-survival-guides <comment><USER2> So the current worry is an electromagnetic pulse? [1]

The "prepper" version of this usually confuses an actual EMP attack (which requires an atomic bomb) and solar magnetic disturbances. They're totally different. An electromagnetic pulse is a big RF pulse with a rise time in nanoseconds. A solar magnetic disturbance results in DC currents being induced into the ground over a period of hours.

An EMP attack is a threat, but if someone is firing atomic bombs at you, you have a bigger problem. That's the military view. It's mostly a threat to things which have long wires attached to them. Mobile devices are too small to be affected. It also doesn't affect fiber optics.

A solar magnetic disturbance is mostly a problem for AC long-distance power transmission on circuits which use a ground reference. This is a big problem for power grids, and they have ways to deal with them. There was a big event in 1989 which caused a blackout.[2] It appears as DC in AC circuits, causing partial transformer saturation. If this isn't detected, it can cause transformer overheating and burnout. But the big grids have detection for this, and reduce power levels in some transformers when necessary. This happens at a low level a few times every year.

[1] [http://americanpreppersnetwork.com/2016/07/emp- electromagnet...](http://americanpreppersnetwork.com/2016/07/emp- electromagnetic-pulse-part-one.html) [2] [http://www.pjm.com/~/media/training/nerc- certifications/re6-...](http://www.pjm.com/~/media/training/nerc- certifications/re6-weatherenvironmental.ashx)

<comment><USER3> I know someone who is a senior meteorologist for FEMA, and this person takes part in some interdisciplinary disaster planning events based around specific scenarios. He told me that there actually is no FEMA plan for a very large solar storm (like the Carrington Event), because we'd just be screwed. In a massive grid-down scenario like that, they expect a 90% die-off in the first few months.

This was two years ago that I had this conversation, and I'm not sure when the actual exercise he was referencing took place. My understanding is that there has been a lot done to prepare the grid in the past 5 years, so we may be in better shape today. I hope so.

<comment><USER4> You should think twice about repeating doomsday hearsay like this without citing a documented, credible source.

<comment><USER3> I'm not going to cite a source because it was a personal friend in a private conversation, and it was off-the-record. I don't want to get anyone in trouble.

<comment><USER4> Then it's hearsay and worthless and you shouldn't repeat it, frankly. If you do, people should call you out since you're inciting FUD.

<comment><USER3> Feel free to ignore it. Seriously. I don't really care one way or the other. It's a nested comment in an HN thread, and it's actually presented by me as hearsay. (Whoever you are, I don't really need you to define hearsay for me.) It's not like I just reported this in the WSJ. I dropped into a forum where people have informal conversations about a variety of things, and this was my random, downvoted, "hey I heard this thing once" contribution. I've given about as much information as I care to, and people can interpret however they like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My wife hails from a little rural village a few miles outside of Syracuse, NY. A place that when the weather gets bad, it REALLY gets bad. There have been snow storms where they have been without power and blocked in for a few days. As a result of this my in-laws have become preppers without realising it. They keep a supply of petrol, dried food, water, fire wood, batteries, gas bottles and have various types of radio at their disposal. They also have a backup generator for the house. They are in the process of fitting solar to try and avoid using the generator when things are bad because in a snow storm a generator sound really creepy. They could live for a week without any lifestyle changes if the power went off and the roads were impassible.

When we were getting married and all the extended family arrived at the house for the big do, some relatives turned out to be preppers and were fascinated with the setup. One phrase I kept hearing was "We read in this book that if you do this, then..." and my father-in-law would respond with "Well, when we were actually without power during the 93 blizzard we learned that..." Basically experience trumped mass produced prepper books.

<comment><USER6> To a certain extent weather makes preppers of us all. I daresay people in Syracuse can rely on harsher weather coming more regularly than down here on the Texas coast. We get hurricanes and tropical storms but they have the entire Gulf Coast and Eastern Seaboard to choose from.

Every time a storm comes we get the usual advisories to stock up on a few days of food, check flashlight batteries, fill a clean tub with tap water for drinking, etc. Those things are drilled into your head from grade school and are repeated on news broadcasts before every major storm.

What's interesting is the unexpected byproduct of outages. Particularly here in the South home construction techniques have changed over the last 100 years. Older homes have lots of large, screened windows, whole house fans and vented attics to help move large amounts of air and help with heat. Even without power you can open all your windows and get a cross breeze. New construction is heavily insulated, has fewer windows and makes no concessions for mass airflow outside the air conditioning system.

Hurricane Katrina was an epiphany for many home owners down here as power was out for weeks afterwards; previously comfortable homes became sweltering hotboxes. The effect on local generator supply was immediate and obvious: sold out everywhere. I heard through the grapevine of entrepreneurs driving down truckloads of them to make a quick buck.

Even so gasoline-fueled generators can be difficult to keep fueled after a hurricane - people leaving the city have a tendency to deplete supplies and gas stations may not have power to pump. But natural gas tends to stay on even when power fails since gas distribution systems can have their own generation and some use the fuel they're moving to maintain pressure.

All the anecdotal evidence I have points to a heavy uptick in natural-gas- fired whole house generator sales after Katrina. In fact there was a trend for a while of new construction actively advertising whole house generator inclusion. I think it happened to a lesser extent again after Ike. Life really stinks down here without air conditioning. I guess my point is most preppers seem to concentrate on food and water, but at least down here electricity is high on the list. :-)

<comment><USER7> It's pretty fascinating to me that people don't default to having a couple days of food in the house. I guess if you have an electric stovetop dry goods aren't so useful when the power is out, but for people with gas, $10 of pasta will go a long way (and is easy to rotate through). I might not have a lot of choices left after 3 days, but there'd be food whether I went to the store or not.

I'm sure the reliability of the fuel supply in the aftermath of a disaster is a factor for the nat gas generators, but if you are going to install one permanently, not having to deal with deliveries and stale fuel are also pretty big advantages.

<comment><USER6> Oh yeah! Far superior to the hassle of dealing with gasoline and unless you buy a monster generator you're not going to power your entire house off of it anyway. Agreed wrt some simple dry goods. A box of crackers and some cans of tuna will go a long way, assuming you can find the can opener. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Anyone know of good survival/prepper guides. Ones written by reputable authors/experts, well researched, and practical?

I'm not particularly paranoid (I suppose that's what paranoid people say...), but I do think there's a certain fragility to our civilisation that we're happy to overlook.

<comment><USER9> The thesis of _Life After Doomsday_ by Bruce Clayton (get the Dial Press paperback edition if you want to look at it, it has annotations following the original), is that if you're prepared to survive a major nuclear war, you're pretty much set for anything less than that (modulo of course each threats particulars, like storm surge for hurricanes).

He (and I, who started becoming a nuclear war survivalist in 1968-9 in 2nd-3rd grade when my mother became a Civil Defense Block Mother, I still have the sign) recommend you read another book on expedient nuclear war survival, which is a lot more timeless. It's based on serious research at Oak Ridge, up to and including handing a set of printed instructions to an "average" American family, video taping them trying to follow them, and iterating on them. Oh, yeah, in the traditional fashion, the author(s) tried out this stuff themselves: _Nuclear War Survival Skills_

Check out the official on-line copy here: [http://www.oism.org/nwss/](http://www.oism.org/nwss/) but if you're worried about a nuclear weapon event, get the dead tree copy, for the Kearny Fallout Meter needs better precision than you'll get from digital -> computer printer.

For that matter, you almost certainly want dead tree (or microfiche, there's a company that used to do that) copies for when the light go out.

After that, there's a lot more, but I don't have time to go into it (in the middle of renovating a house built in 1910), check my previous postings on the subject if you can find them, 5 minutes with Google and the built in search engine were useless _and I have precise search terms_ , e.g. the obscure _Bad Times Primer_ by C.G. Cobb. Or email me for more (address is in my info).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> A related question: Where do you, as a marketer, draw the line between producing a product to serve the needs and interests of a particular market and enabling activities you disagree with or believe to be harmful (even if only harmful to the consumer)?

In this case, writing for the "prepper" audience seems to fall near the line of providing content relevant to the consumers' interests and enabling/encouraging paranoid 'end-of-times' behavior that at best prepares the consumer for a natural disaster and at worst entrenches distrust of society in the audience.

Is it possible to ethically market a product that relies on a belief system or set of values you disagree with?

<comment><USER7> It depends on your ethics. Which I think is more than a trite rejoinder. You don't have to go very far back in history to see how slippery received wisdom can be.

Here's a vaguely on target real world example: There are doctors who perform surgeries for people that refuse blood transfusions for religious regions. Presumably some of the doctors disagree with the belief, but they perform the surgeries anyway.

In that situation it isn't a huge conundrum, choosing to engage the patient on their terms can be better than letting them suffer or die (so while your predicate is true, it's also the case that there is strong alignment of interests). It's had an impact on how medicine is practiced otherwise: [http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-jehovahs- witness...](http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-jehovahs-witnesses- are-changing-medicine)

Anybody have any better real world examples that more directly get at the tricky part of the question?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I thoroughly enjoyed this article... as someone who does believe in an eventual collapse I really appreciated the balanced approach while still making some fun of the fringe elements.

For the record, my belief is in a non-specific collapse based on the increasingly built-in fragility and complexity of civilization as espoused by Joseph Tainter[1] in his book "The Collapse of Complex Societies"[2].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter)

[2] [https://monoskop.org/images/a/ab/Tainter_Joseph_The_Collapse...](https://monoskop.org/images/a/ab/Tainter_Joseph_The_Collapse_of_Complex_Societies.pdf)

[https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Complex-Societies-Studies- Ar...](https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-Complex-Societies-Studies- Archaeology/dp/B001AOZ3PM/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1469399383&sr=1-1&keywords=collapse+of+complex+societies#navbar)

<comment><USER12> The science historian, James Burke, had a sobering walkthrough of the consequences of a large-scale failure of technology in the first episode of the first of his classic "Connections" series: "The Trigger Effect"

[http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnwpsp_veetle- connections-s...](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnwpsp_veetle- connections-s01e01-the-trigger-effect_tech)

(Even more sobering is that, nearly 40 years after this series was filmed, we have a new layer of technological dependence: telecoms networks and data services. This would greatly amplify a lot of the things that Burke describes.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Reminds me of an area historically known for its sword makers where I met people stockpiling swords in preparation for the coming doomsday. Apparently, there is a belief among religious locals that before the actual end of the world, God is going to stop all the modern machinery (including guns) effectively throwing everyone back indo the middle ages. Silly thing, but it keeps local blacksmiths at work allowing to continue old traditions for what it's worth.

</comment><comment><USER14> Statistically, you're more likely to die in a post-apocalyptic scenario then you are in a car accident, so if you worry about things like wearing your seatbelt or driving sober then it's hardly irrational to be a prepper.[1] That being said, given that according to JAMA only 1.2% of Americans meet all seven guidelines for cardiovascular health[2], spending your weekends preparing for the apocalypse isn't necessarily the best use of time for most people in terms of increasing their life expectancy.

[1] [http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/a-huma...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/04/a-human- extinction-isnt-that-unlikely/480444/)

[2] [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22427615](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22427615)

<comment><USER15> It's not irrational IMHO to be prepared to live a couple of days or so without power or grocery stores, as that's happened dozens of times all over the US for a variety of reasons. A total collapse of civilization on the other hand, not so much.

I will also say that I've wondered how many of the people prepping are capable of spending a day hiking in the woods with a decent pack on their back. Having a ton of stuff may not be very helpful if you don't have the physical capabilities to adapt to unexpected circumstances.

<comment><USER14> > Having a ton of stuff may not be very helpful if you don't have the physical > capabilities to adapt to unexpected circumstances.

The actual amount of physical stuff you'd need to survive some sort of post- apocalyptic scenario really isn't more than a few hundred bucks, e.g. a year worth of crystalized iodine for purifying water and a flint & steel fire starter costs all of $25. What's more expensive is learning the edible plants and mushrooms in your area and their medicinal properties, plus whatever other miscellaneous survival skills you'd need.

<comment><USER16> Iodine is probably a good idea, but unless you're the only one left you probably ought to save up some ammo as well.

<comment><USER14> I'm not a gun owner, but at the same time I realize that it's not possible to live as a vegetarian in a survival situation. This is because plants have almost no calories, you can't digest them without fat, most don't have enough protein, they take too much energy to gather and cook, etc. So without being able to cover everything with tofu, blue cheese, nutritional yeast, etc., there is basically no way to survive for any period of time without a gun. I have an interest in edible plants and mushrooms, so that's where I overlap with the preppers, but I feel like not owning a gun is one reason it wouldn't really make sense to label myself as such.

<comment><USER15> IMHO, in a realistic survival situation, unless you already live in an extremely remote area, like hundreds of miles from even a small city, the other survivors are going to be a much more immediate concern. Unless of course whatever the disaster is results in immediate casualties in the 95%+ range in all major cities, and you somehow survive this.

There would be a huge number of people in the area and no prospect of feeding all of them. They would all be very determined indeed, and many would have their own guns. Everyone would either starve, die at the hands of raiders/thieves, or become raiders and thieves themselves, and thus have plenty of supplies from whoever did prepare. Having a gun would help, but more important would be to have a large group with military-like organization strong enough to stand up to the stresses involved in surviving such an apocalypse. If you already have that or can make it/become part of it, you'll survive. If you don't, then your guns probably won't help you much, no matter how fancy they are and how much ammo you have.

So IMHO, to realistically prep, you'd have to either live way, way out in the boonies already, already be part of some kind of warlord militia in our current mostly peaceful world (a street gang might do it), or just accept that this is basically never going to happen anyways.

<comment><USER14> > There would be a huge number of people in the area and no prospect of > feeding all of them.

I'm currently in NYC, where clearly there are way more people than edible plants. Even if you look at only the 1% or whatever who know which plants are edible, there still wouldn't be nearly enough plants to feed them.

But in any sort of post-apocalyptic scenario, the first thing that would happen is that people would be unable to mow their lawns and the parks. So within two or three weeks the amount of edible plants would go up 100x. Still not enough food to make staying in a city viable for the longterm, but probably enough that you could feed yourself while hiking or biking to a more remote area.

<comment><USER17> You think a few weeks will turn _lawn grass_ into an abundant food supply?

 _Actual wheat_ takes months before it's ready to harvest. If, on the day of the apocalypse, every single person in NYC dug up the lawns and parks and planted every inch with edible grains, they'd all starve to death long before getting any bread. If they planted before the apocalypse so that the harvest came in just before the shit went down, they'd still starve to death, because a city doesn't have enough arable land to feed even 1% of its occupants. The amount of land required to keep NYC fed is larger than the city itself.

That's putting aside the fact that there's nothing in lawn grass that humans can get enough calories out of to even make up for the effort of harvesting.

<comment><USER14> So in your typical NYC grass you have: dandelion, chicory, common mallow, burdock, curly dock, bitter dock, red clover, plantain, various onions and mustards, etc. All of that stuff gets pretty big very fast if you don't mow over it. Obviously you still can't feed yourself on only plants, but the quantity of edible plants would probably outstrip the number of people who knew what they were. NYC has 30,000 acres of public parks, and tons more unofficial open space.

<comment><USER17> Just because you _can_ eat something doesn't mean it will keep you alive. Dandelion greens, for example, definitely don't provide enough calories to make up for what you spend gathering them. I'm not sure they have enough to make up for just the effort of chewing and digesting them.

Everything you've mentioned there is just greens except for the plantains and onions, which will certainly be stripped bare in days. The rest might liven up a salad, but it definitely won't give you the protein and calories to stave off starvation.

<comment><USER14> Red clover actually has a lot of protein. The folks who survived the Irish potato famine were the ones who never abandoned the traditional Celtic practice of eating clover in favor of potatoes.

<comment><USER17> Maybe so. You still won't meet your bulk calorie needs from greens alone.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Pikluk on VentureBeat - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2007/12/17/pikluk

<comment><USER2> you may want to change the title of this "ex-yc Applicant" or the moderators will...

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

P.S. congrats on the product, sounds like you're getting some great reception.

<comment><USER3> 1 + 1 is 2, not 3.

<comment><USER2> ?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> My favorite part of the story: "Pikluk's thousand or so beta-testers have given enthusiastic feedback, the company says."

There's a pretty big difference between good and enthusiastic. "Your site is the worst thing I've ever seen and I hope you die in a fire" is technically enthusiastic feedback.</comment>


Get Started with the Microsoft Band SDK Preview - <AUTHOR> http://developer.microsoftband.com/ <comment><USER2> Ideas:

(I'd be more interested in controlling my phone from the wrist)

Two-factor auth codes on the wrist instead of unlocking phone.

Beep my phone button (so I can find it when it's lost).

Record conversation. I have bad memory in long meetings.

Pager. A simple 'push this button to buzz the other person who is also wearing a band that you are linked to'. My wife needs me and sometimes I have headphones and can't hear her and don't see the phone light up.

<comment><USER3> FWIW, I currently get two-factor auth codes on my band just because it shows text messages out of the box.

<comment><USER4> That's more convenient than unlocking my phone to get the code when I miss the brief notification. My plan though, is to port my PIN grid proof of concept to the band.

[https://www.wittenburg.co.uk/Entry.aspx?id=69e92695-f6eb-42e...](https://www.wittenburg.co.uk/Entry.aspx?id=69e92695-f6eb-42ed-9258-dc4443493059)

Going to have to give UI some serious thought, but looking forward to making it happen.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If anybody is interested in a some code, I released a small sample application: [https://github.com/felixrieseberg/MicrosoftBand- Sample](https://github.com/felixrieseberg/MicrosoftBand-Sample).

</comment><comment><USER6> I really wish I could buy one, but alas it's not in the UK yet.

I like the concept, I like the sensors and I love that it's cross phone platform.

I've no idea why they are taking so long to get to other markets. Please don't make this the next Zune.

</comment><comment><USER7> This is awesome! Im not sure what you can do with it, but skin temperature and heart rate both seem like something that can be used to measure things like focus and emotion (real mood bracelet). Im curious about the kinds of things people will do with this! Im also super curious on the app store that will be available for it. Will probably be a itunes kind of thing where you have to plug the thing into a computer to get the app. Its an exciting time to be a developer!

</comment><comment><USER8> Serious question - why would I buy a Microsoft Band? Why is it awesome?

Does anyone have a convincing reason to buy the MS Band over the Apple Watch?

<comment><USER9> Looking at the feature list, the Apple Watch appears to be more of a "lifestyle" device. While Apple may add apps later (or 3rd party developers), it doesn't appear to do sports/fitness tracking, sleep efficiency tracking, etc. The Microsoft Band does.

However, if you're a serious athlete, you'd probably want a different device, as neither are waterproof. So for triathlon, or just wearing in the shower, pick something like the Garmin or the Basis.

I have a Band, and within the device's limitations, it's excellent. I'm able to read and send messages while leaving the phone in my pocket (handy in Austin that has a "hands-free" law when driving). Simple Cortana queries show up on the screen, while more complex answers ("Show me the closest tailor") require you to look at your phone.

<comment><USER8> great points. i have thought about how i wouldn't apple watch during my hockey games.

what kind of phone are you using with your band?

<comment><USER10> I also have a Band. It doesn't work with my iPhone 4, just 4S and above-- although maybe this update will fix that (unless the 4's bluetooth is too old).

I use it with the desktop sync app. This means I don't get text notifications or anything like that, but the health tracking is fantastic.

<comment><USER11> The Band uses Bluetooth LE for notifications, so it's unlikely you'll ever be able to use the Band with the iPhone 4.

<comment><USER10> Thanks! That's what I guessed but never knew for sure. Hopefully v2 will ship with WiFi. Til then, maybe I should get a new phone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I have checked almost all MS stores neat Sunnyvale and teh Band is out of stock. Even their online store shows it as out of stock.

<comment><USER13> Hopefully they will fix the problem that no one has been able to buy one for a while. The SDK is great, but not that interesting if everyone you know bought a different smartwatch because they couldn't find the Band.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Nice move by MS for developers. Too bad you can't use the SDK on other platforms for development, OS X and linux.

<comment><USER15> From page 2 of the SDK docs (linked to from the parent article):

Given the multi-platform support of Microsoft Band, the SDK is also supported on all of the same platforms the current Microsoft Health and Sync applications are released on. This includes: 

Windows 7 or later

Windows Phone 8.1

Mac OS X 10.9

iOS 8

Android 4.2 (API 17)

Since the iOS SDK says coming soon, I'd expect there will be more SDK content for OSX when that ships.

<comment><USER14> LOL, anytime I ask about linux availability, nobody has anything to say about LINUX.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Will there be a Web API?</comment>


Notes on using git-replace to get rid of giant objects - <AUTHOR> https://blog.plover.com/prog/git-replace.html <comment><USER2> If you want to go the mentioned "rewrite-whole-history" route, I have used BFG Repo Cleaner [0] successfully in the past. It's way faster than git-filter- branch [1].

Another thing: You can work with shallow clones. If the commit is ancient, no need to pull the whole history of a project.

[0]: [https://rtyley.github.io/bfg-repo- cleaner/](https://rtyley.github.io/bfg-repo-cleaner/)

[1]: [https://git-scm.com/docs/git-filter-branch](https://git- scm.com/docs/git-filter-branch)

<comment><USER3> _[ Addendum 20181009: A lot of people have unfortunately missed the point of this article, and have suggested that I use BFG or reposurgeon. I have a small problem and a large problem. The small problem is how to remove some files from the repository. This is straightforward, and the tools mentioned will help with it. But because of the way Git works, the result is effectively a new repository. The tools will not help with the much larger problem I would have then: How to get 350 developers to migrate to the new repository at the same time. The approach I investigated in this article was an attempt to work around this second, much larger problem. ]_

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Maybe create a `new-master` branch with the offending commits rebased out; then automation to cherry-pick new commits between `master` to `new-master`.

Or change all CI / dev docs to use `--depth`, and save more than 350MB per checkout in the process.

<comment><USER5> The rebasing approach is effectively what solutions like BFG and git filter- branch automate. It's dangerous to do whole branch rebases, especially with 350 developers that you can't tell to stop working while you do it, that way lies a merge hell that can take years to dig out of. But if you are going to rebase an entire branch like that, BFG and git filter-branch are faster and easier than a manual rebase.

`--depth` is a useful tool. There are still some issues with things like log/blame/annotate in working with more shallow clones. It's hopeful that the work on the commit-graph cache will help make this a lot better.

<comment><USER4> Sure, so BFG/filter-branch/rebase on a NEW branch, that can't affect existing developers, then automate cherry-picking `master` <=> `new-master`, get all developers to switch at their own pace...

Good point on log/blame/annotate.

<comment><USER5> "automate cherry-picking" is where I feel the migraine starts in git. I've seen three-way merge hell and it starts with something like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What would happen if you:

1\. checkout the last commit before the bad one.

2\. cherry-pick every commit after the bad one.

Would that get rid of the bad commit?

<comment><USER7> Interactive rebase allows you to do that (it will list all affected commits in the editor, you can remove the line corresponding to the bad commit, and by default it picks all other ones to the rebased branch): [https://git- scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Rewriting-History#_...](https://git- scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Rewriting-History#_changing_multiple)

<comment><USER5> git filter-branch and BFG are faster/easier than an interactive rebase for this particular problem.

The author wants to avoid rebases because they cannot "stop the world" on the project and have around 350 developers they can't tell to stop working while the rebase effort is done, and then rebase all their current work on top of the new branch history.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Fire the BFG. It's a no-brainer.

<comment><USER9> Cleaning up the mess _after_ firing the BFG is less of a no-brainer. Getting rid of the bad object is easy. But afterward I have to arrange for 350 developers to switch simultaneously to the rewritten repository. The article discusses an attempt to find a way to avoid this much larger and much more difficult problem.

<comment><USER3> Handling intentionally deleted objects does seem like a missing use case in git and not a huge leap in terms of the implementation.

<comment><USER9> I think the concern here is the security implications. Suppose commit X contains some family of configuration files F1, F2, ... that lock down security. Someone, intentionally or otherwise, retroactively destroys F23 in commit X using your proposed feature. Now the security configuration at commit X could have an exploitable loophole. Later on, a serious problem is discovered in the production deployment and the deployed version is rolled back to commit X, but without crucial file F23.

Git's current design makes this sort of scenario impossible. Any tampering with commit X after the fact is immediately detectable, and Git will raise an alarm and refuse to check out the commit.

<comment><USER3> I was thinking more along the lines of what you were attempting to do locally but with downstream effect: mark the blob itself as intentionally deleted rather than missing or corrupted. This would leave all hashes the same, which sidesteps the much larger coordination problem.

To cover the rollback case in your comment, give git checkout a safe mode (either with the default being safe and requiring —-force to override or an explicit —-safe) that fails if the tree-ish points to any deleted blob.

How to propagate this change is a delicate matter because any fetch may reach back and destructively update my local clone. When I've wished for this feature, it has always been in the context of a central team repository. Being able to delete an object from the central repository at least has the benefit of _subsequent_ clones not being bloated by the 350-megabyte file. Presumably people with access to the team's central repository can be trusted to wield this power responsibly. Other members of the team may optionally run the hypothetical git delete-object ffff9999 to shrink their respective clones. Leaving it as plumbing to be run on a repository to which one has administrative access seems like a decent balance.

This could be a potentially expensive operation because replacing a packed object with a known-but-deleted object would trigger a repack. The ripple effect of this new special case — new object type, really — would be nontrivial and a change that would break backward compatibility.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Block Content Farms on Google - <AUTHOR> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mmnbhiajmalgdjlojjamonklladcijim

<comment><AUTHOR> Over the last couple months, I recall seeing a lot of requests for ways to block content farms from Google Search. I have found this extension works really well.

</comment><comment><USER2> A useful tool for saving a bit of time during research. Can't wait to see what might happen with added group functions!

</comment><comment><USER3> Awesome!!!!</comment>


Senior Ruby on Rails Developer Nanodegree - <AUTHOR> https://www.udacity.com/course/senior-ruby-on-rails-developer--nd030 <comment><USER2> I feel this maybe a little late to the game. It could be useful for companies who have hired a bunch of junior developers and need more "Senior" people.</comment>


Show HN: Tracket.com – A Mix Between Google News and the Internet Archive - <AUTHOR> http://tracket.com/ <comment><USER2> Pretty cool, some advice:

\- Add loading bars of some kind

\- Some of the older content send me to 404 errors[0]

\- It's not clear what the value-proposition is (why should I use this over Google New?)

I'm actually working on something similar, albeit targeting a completely different market:

[https://projectpiglet.com/](https://projectpiglet.com/)

Of course, I'm trying to track all the content myself - which has been interesting.

[0] [http://tracket.com/url](http://tracket.com/url)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks! That's some helpful feedback. I'll have to fix that URL issue. Unfortunately some sites take down their articles after a period of time so some links that worked previously don't work anymore.

I've struggled to refine the value prop over time. I originally built tracket to scratch an itch I had and I've been trying to come up with a better value prop for others.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> How is the clustering of these articles actually work?

Pretty interesting!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I'm using a td-idf algorithm to rank similarity between stories. It's evolved over time and I'm constantly refining it.</comment></comment>


LA Uses 400,000 Plastic Balls To Protect Water Resevoir (2008) - <AUTHOR> http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/10/local/me-balls10

<comment><AUTHOR> Images available at [http://whenonearth.net/400000-balls-in-the-ivanhoe- reservoir...](http://whenonearth.net/400000-balls-in-the-ivanhoe-reservoir-in- la/)</comment>


NSA encryption plan for 'internet of things' rejected by ISO - <AUTHOR> https://www.wikitribune.com/story/2018/04/20/internet/67004/67004/ <comment><USER2> > "...ISO delegates expressed distrust and concerns that the U.S. agency could > be promoting encryption technology it knew how to break, rather than the > most secure."

That was my first thought as well, but the article doesn't go into detail about the encryption plan. Are the encryption schemes all-new? Is the talk of a plan vague or are specific products or code bases being suggested?

The fundamental question to me is whether IoT encryption is something relevant to national security. I think the _lack_ of encryption is and that's why the NSA wants to see security shored up.</comment>


Ask HN: My website is better than my competitor's, how do I bring traffic? - <AUTHOR> I don't know how many of you have heard of blahtherapy. It's a site where you go and vent your problems or listen to other people's problems.
The site is pretty bad. Ads everywhere, backspace exits the chat suddenly, reconnection is non-existant, poor design.. So I decided to make a worthy alternative, rainychat.com. However, even though I KNOW my site is better in pretty much all ways, I have no idea how to make people realize it exists.
Do i have to pay for advertisement in google? Is reposting my site on facebook and twitter over and over again the only way? How do you promote your sites?
In my case, I have no email lists or followers already made, i'm starting from scratch - and honestly, i'm lost. What would you do, HN? <comment><USER2> I'd suggest you post questions on various forums sites asking for advice while also being sure to mention your site name and why it's better than the competition. Lots of people will see your ad, and you might even get some good advice if people respond.

I'm just teasing. :-) I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

How do people find your competitor? Is it through Google searches, word of mouth, advertising? Are you planning to get the same users to go to your site instead? Or are you hoping to grow the market for this kind of product? Do you have a hypothesis about who your typical user is, and how they use your site? Are you planning to generate revenue from the site? If so, do you have an idea about what the lifetime value of your user might be? Answering those questions will give you a lot of clarify on what user acquisition strategies to purse.

Buying ads might be effective, but it can also get expensive quickly if it's not translating into enough revenue (or strategically valuable growth). Maybe SEO would be better. Or maybe tweaking the product to give it slightly more viral functionality would be best (I don't know how you would do that for the product you described).

If it's just a side project site, and you're not looking to put much work or money into it, well, good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the input! I'll be sure to try going for a more SEO approach, as i don't have much money to invest in advertising, it'll all have to be by word of mouth - so good luck to me, hm? :)

<comment><USER2> No problem! I think it's a really interesting product, and the general problem of giving people a way to vent about their problems has a ton of potential.

There's a lot of good advice and ideas in other comments in the thread. Good luck with it!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I work in marketing with a focus on customer acquisition and have gotten something like 300+ million purchases/downloads/signups etc over ~10 years etc. So I should know what I'm doing by now... really I would say people cant really answer this for you without knowing more. And if you want general anecdotes there is a bunch of online material that will give better general answers than here. You need specifics for your business. You can narrow down a bunch of option for you business specifics these questions;

\- Would you prefer to use time or money?

\- For time/money, how much are you willing to spend/invest?

\- How many users do you want in what time frame? I'm guessing with this service you need to hit some level of minimum mass to be viable to users.

\- Do you have a particular audience you want to attract? \- Can you give a best guess on LTV of a new user?

</comment><comment><USER4> Before I'd run advertisements on Google - which is very expensive - I'd look at alternatives like StumbleUpon and several other sites with plenty of real users and decent targeting.

I would consider reaching out to help groups around the US. There are zillions of them, large and small. I'd enable groups to set up their own subs on the site, which they can control and utilize for their own purposes (perhaps with some customization and branding). I'd print up promotion fliers perhaps and mail them out to help groups. Help groups are very easy to contact and find; if you're smart about it, they're an extremely inexpensive user base to get started with.

I'd also do something about this:

(my first experience waiting to talk to someone as a listener)

them: hey

them: hows it going?

them: are you there?

them: want to have sex with me?

You've got a huge challenge in keeping that site from becoming a cesspool.

<comment><AUTHOR> Definitely agree with you! I tried stumbleupon and similar sites already, i'll probably get a user a day from them or similar, not the best way to promote the site, but it helps.

As for trolls and people looking for sexual talks, there's a report button when you end a conversation which actually works - contrary to most sites. Thanks for the advice, i'll definitely appreciate it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's basically three options.

You spend an outrageous amount of money to expose your site to an outrageous amount of money (think a superbowl ad) so when they feel like sharing our browsing sad stories they'll think of your site.

You find out a way to specifically reach your target market by finding out what they like to do and show up there. This is (usually) less costly but more work since you'll have to find out where they are and what they're doing (i.e. google queries, visiting blogs, being in communities (forums), behaviour patterns for targetting by facebook or google, being in specific physical locations, etc.).

You think of something ridiculously witty that spreads through communities and exposes your name to many people by word of mouth.

I'd say if you're short on cash option 2 is the only affordable option. If you play it right the only significant cost can be time (i.e. visit all colleges in your area and hang up posters).

Note that your question is exactly the reason people apply to HN and try to get VC money. All three options are significantly more powerful with large amounts of money and in most cases make or break your startup.

</comment><comment><USER6> One thing that you can do is to examine the backlink profile of your competitor's site. Look at the sites linking in and see if you can get links there as well. You can also get a decent idea of what ancillary social media work that they're doing and try to mimic that as well.

I would be looking to get mentions on high traffic places with user generated content like huffington post and forbes.com.

There are plenty of backlink checkers around just do a google search. I recommend that you try at least two as not every site catches every link. You've got a post on hacker news already so maybe you know more about it than me.

The preceding information is by no means a comprehensive guide but it has worked for me in the past.

<comment><AUTHOR> I like your ideas! I will definitely try to get mentions, i think you are right, that's what really drives high movements of people from site to site. And am right now checking for backlink exposure :) Thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Find out how they are linking. There are several paid and free tools available to do that: Ahrefs and Open Site Explorer, Followerwonk.

Find out how they promote on social media. Search for social media analytics tools and use them.

Find out how inbound marketing and modern SEO work - there are several free resources on Moz.com and other similar sites.

Finally this question might be better answered by the Hackernews equivalent for SEO - inbound.org You will find useful tools at [https://inbound.org/view/tools](https://inbound.org/view/tools)

<comment><USER8> SEO is not really the best bet.

SEO is for when you have a clear way to find something - e.g. "buy iphone 6". I don't many people search for a site like this.

The traffic landscape has changed. I have a client that generates 40% of their traffic from Mobile Facebook - as in m.facbook.com not the usually, desktop version - essentially from public transport pre/post work and at lunch.

For a site without a clear SEO term, the best bet is Social Media. That takes time, and luck more than anything, but without a clear SEO hook, is unfortunately the best option. Thankfully, a lot of eh work for SEO is the same as for SM. what you need to make it work is:

1\. Actual content - currently you have virtually none. Get a blog, summarise the best rants of the day.

2\. Some sort of validation - karma is a good example of a means of encouraging people to come back, and a leaderboard is really helpful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Plug the competitor into semrush and/or other seo tools and find out where its traffic comes from. start there with your efforts too/alternatives ones of the same kind/niche.

</comment><comment><USER10> Blahtherapy has 850 backlinks.

They have 0 Adword traffic - so if they are using paid traffic for advertising it is not at Google.

They monetize their site via Google Adsense though.

My thoughts lead to the conclusion they use organic and maybe blackhat SEO and probably did the old trick of leaving their domain on comments before people got wise to this.

On the plus side they get A LOT of traffic so the demand is there.

</comment><comment><USER11> I think most people that would want to "Vent" on the site would need prior knowledge of your site. This isn't something they will go search out when they need it.

I think you should target various Facebook groups and just get the word out. I think a lot of people would be supportive of the site and you could get some viral marketing out of it. Emotional support is in vogue.

There's dozens of niche support websites that would love to know about this. Think forums that offer support for cutters, compulsive eaters, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hm.. i'll definitely try to target facebook/tumblr/twitter groups, thanks for the idea! You're right, simply spreading the word out is the best way to get people to know my site, advertising itself can do only so much. Thank you again :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Welcome to creating a me-too product. It's some of the most difficult and expensive marketing possible.

Imagine creating a cola that's exactly like coca-cola except it's 20% better tasting (in your option). Well good luck beating out Coca cola - even though your product is better.

And you have to be very careful about assuming that your product is better in a way that people actually care about. For example, I visit the site FML every now and then --- and I never, ever post there...I just got to read other people's misfortunes to feel better about myself..

So be careful about your assumption that yours is better in a way that people care about.

<comment><USER10> To be fair, Blahtherapy is not the cola cola of the internet. I had never heard of it before this post.

It is more like creating a cola that is exactly like "Richmond Cola" but 20% better.

Also there are hundreds of brands of better tasting beers out there yet they have to compete with Stella Artois and they manage..</comment></comment>


List of cool frameworks - <AUTHOR>

<comment><AUTHOR> Anyone know where I can find a compiled list of frameworks for typical Web 2.0 applications? I'm interested in building something, but there's so much crap out there ;)

Examples would include scriptaculous, delicious, YUI. I was hoping for a matrix comparison list or something..

<comment><USER2> moo.fx is quite lightweight. You might wanna give that a try.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Take a look at: <http://jesusphreak.infogami.com/blog/vrp1>

This is Python-specific but it's got good summary information.</comment>