Yet Another Review/Rate My Startup Request - <AUTHOR> http://luminotes.com/ I've been working on this product (with some unrelated consulting on the side) for nearly a year. Just to head off some obvious comments, here are a few things to keep in mind:
Web browser support for the web-based product itself is fairly restricted. So no Safari, and no Opera. Yet.
I realize the product is a little general-purpose, and that makes a unique selling proposition more difficult to craft. I also realize that you kind folks on HN are not the target market.
I'm trying to build a sustainable business, so I'm not interested in tips for attracting investors/buyers.
If you must say a comment along the lines of, "I don't see how this is any different than all the other wiki / notebook / word processor software out there," then please at least read some of the tour or try the demo first. If it's still not clear, then obviously I need to improve my explanation of the product.
So, what do you think? My main goal at this point is to improve traffic and build a larger customer base. I have a handful of paying customers now, but not nearly "enough". Part of the problem might be that convincing consumers (rather than businesses) to pay a recurring fee is a tough sell.
Anyway, thanks in advance. <comment><AUTHOR> I've been working on this product (with some unrelated consulting on the side) for nearly a year. Just to head off some obvious comments, here are a few things to keep in mind:

Web browser support for the web-based product itself is fairly restricted. So no Safari, and no Opera. Yet.

I realize the product is a little general-purpose, and that makes a unique selling proposition more difficult to craft. I also realize that you kind folks on HN are not the target market.

Tags are in the works.

I'm trying to build a sustainable business, so I'm not interested in tips for attracting investors/buyers.

If you must post a comment along the lines of, "I don't see how this is any different than all the other wiki / notebook / word processor software out there," then please at least read some of the tour or try the demo first. If it's still not clear, then obviously I need to improve my explanation of the product.

So, what do you think? My main goal at this point is to improve traffic and build a larger customer base. I have a handful of paying customers now, but not nearly "enough". Part of the problem might be that convincing consumers (rather than businesses) to pay a recurring fee is a tough sell.

Anyway, thanks in advance.

<comment><USER2> I've been looking for something like this for a while: currently I use Tomboy on Linux but the UI is too basic. I love your attention to detail: Ctrl+B makes my selection bold - fantastic.

Are you going to open the code? I'm sure you've used tons of other people's work: come on, contribute some back!

I'd love to run it on my laptop: since the software is truly personal, without any sharing/collaboration benefits, why would I want to keep it in the "cloud", which often is unavailable?

So... where is the code? I saw "download" feature, but it gives me HTML, not the software.

<comment><AUTHOR> The download page has the whole codebase in its entirety, GPL licensed: <http://luminotes.com/download>

The link to this page is at the bottom of the front page. It used to be more prominent, but I found people got confused about whether they had to download the software in order to just make a wiki.

You can browse the Mercurial repository online as well.

And as for your question about keeping the software in the "cloud".. The software actually does have some sharing/collaboration features. (Whether they're useful for your specific needs is another matter.)

I'd like to make a desktop version of Luminotes at some point, but I have no concrete plans for it now.

<comment><USER2> HUGE thanks! BTW, I've been experimenting with web-based software running on a desktop with XUL/WebKit-based clients that run their own in-process HTTP server (I've used CherryPy) and I like this approach: HTML-based UIs are way easier to create than typical UI widgets.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm using CherryPy, and I'd be very interested in hearing more about this. Feel free to send me an email.

I think the biggest hurdle in a Luminotes desktop port such as this would be replacing PostgreSQL with something like sqlite.

Another option would be to throw out the existing server entirely for the desktop version and use something like Google Gears.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I would make it clearer WHY I SHOULD USE LUMINOTES?

My first thoughts for a use case would be for a company to keep training docs. In which case, I would make the fact that it costs money more prominent.

<comment><AUTHOR> Okay, sounds like my unique selling proposition isn't obvious enough. I'll work on that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I use tadalists all the time for making one-line notes and putting down ideas. Like, I have a tada list called "Ideas" for startup ideas and another one "Articles" for stuff to write about. 99% of the stuff I want to write down fits this idiom well.

Very rarely I want to take multi-line notes, in these cases I use Google Docs, since I use all the G apps anyways.

Where does your stuff fit in? The ability to link to other entries seems pretty useless, or at least rarely useful.

After trying out the demo, it's better than G Docs because the interface is simpler. G Docs opens docs in new tabs/windows which is pretty annoying for smaller docs. If you add some kind of check-off bullet point capability to your lists (e.g. gray them out), then I could ditch tadalist and G docs and unite my stuff here. That would make sense.

You call it a "personal wiki" which seems like marketing speak for _nothing_ , since the idea of a wiki is that everybody can edit it, but if it's personal, then it's really just a specialized HTML editor (?). Maybe you should just call it a "Notebook that just works".

UI bug report: when I click an entry on the left side, you flash it (in yellow) and then you scroll to it. But if it takes long to scroll there then the flash in unseen by the user. Scrolling then flashing may work better.

<comment><AUTHOR> The ability to link to other notes may indeed be useless for your particular needs. But it's hugely useful for a large class of notebooks. For instance, if you're writing a novel and you need to keep track of your characters and their relationships, being able to link from one note to another is incredibly handy.

So I see that as where Luminotes fits in. It's really a notebook of interlinked notes, which you can't really do with Google Docs or Tadalist. You can do it with a full-fledged wiki like Mediawiki, but for many people that's overkill, and besides doesn't come with the nice UI.

As for bullet point check-off capability, you can quite easily use the strikethrough for that purpose. I know several people who use that for crossing things off lists as they're completed. It's perhaps not as convenient as a single checkbox, but it does work.

"Personal wiki" isn't marketing speak, as I'm going for the "interlinked collection of notes/pages" aspect of the word "wiki" rather than the collaboration sense of the word. But I think it's becoming increasingly clear that regardless of all that, "personal wiki" isn't a great way to describe the product.

Thanks for the UI bug report. I think I should be able to make the scroll and flash work serially rather than in parallel.

<comment><AUTHOR> Okay, the scrolling and flashing is now serial instead of parallel. And I sped up the scrolling speed as well. Thanks again.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Looks similar to this service. <http://www.springnote.com/en>

It's a product of a korean company called OpenMaru.

</comment><comment><USER6> I'd remove "Pricing & signup" and change it to "Sign up for your free account today"...THEN during the sale process, upsell them "Your free account comes with ______, upgrade to one of our premium plans today and receive a ___% discount"

This way you won't drive people away w/o them at least trying your product to see if its for them

<comment><AUTHOR> I was sort of going by standard practice among other startups.. They all seem to be very up-front about their pricing and rate plans. Do you think that this is in general a bad idea, or do you think with my product in particular, it would be better to go with the "Sign up for your free account today" approach? If so, why?

Also, by the way, my conversion rate to free accounts is around 26% according to Analytics. (This is not for AdWords clicks.) I think a bigger concern for me is my conversion rate (or lack thereof) for free accounts to paid accounts.

<comment><USER6> Well you will still be upfront about your fees, I'm only talking about changing the actual link text, so that the users will be more likely to click it, since everyone likes free stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> Link text has been changed now. And I sprinkled "sign up for free" in a few other places as well.

Thanks again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I like it a lot, nice job. Definitely reminds me of TiddlyWiki.

My main criticism is that there should be an explicit "save" button or link for notes. Perhaps it could be similar to the gmail "save draft" button, in that autosaves would disable or "gray out" the save button (nothing more to save). I think _not_ having a specific Save button will confuse "average" users who have been trained to "Save Often!"

Other than that, I think it would also be good to be able to hide or "minimize" the vertical menu on the left (+,link,<paperclip>...) because I actually find it quite distracting. I feel like it breaks the flow from menu item to note- maybe moving it to the right might be good as another option.

Overall, quick to set up and easy to use- so those are winners! Nice work :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the detailed feedback. I've been avoiding a "save" button because saves are implicit, but I think for the reasons you point out, I really should add one anyway.

You can hide all the crap on the left (except the toolbar) by clicking the "nothing but notes" link on the right side of the page. Maybe I should make that clearer. And maybe I should have it hide the toolbar as well. Is there anything I could do to the toolbar to make it less distracting?

<comment><AUTHOR> Okay, "nothing but notes" mode now hides the toolbar as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Not really feedback, but a matter of attention-to-detail:

Do you have one too many '%' in your document.write(...google analytics) code? It throws a visible '%' at the very bottom of your page.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, I appreciate it. I think I got a little over-zealous in escaping my %s.

Interestingly, in Python, "%%%s" % "foo" != "%%foo"

<comment><USER9> It works just like \ in standard unix parsing - you escape the escape character by doubling it. So in "%%%s":

      "%%" -> "%"
      "%s" -> "foo"

for a result of "%foo".

<comment><AUTHOR> Right, but the escaping by doubling does not work in Python unless it's in a format string. So "%%foo" does not count as escaped. That's what threw me off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Sad but I suspect true: if you really want to appeal to academic markets (as that one pull quote suggests), you'll need to remove the word "wiki" from your sell. The anti-Wikipedia prejudices run deep in academia, and they've attached the word "wiki" to all of those fears. You seem to have discovered one of the exceptions, which is great, but...

<comment><AUTHOR> It's a good point. I have family in academia, so I'm familiar with the anti- Wikipedia bias.

The question then is what to call the product if not a personal wiki.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This looks quite similar to Google Notebook. Is there a reason to use luminotes instead?

<comment><AUTHOR> Glad you asked. :)

See [http://luminotes.com/notebooks/74uqe3cecagabucmrvwls33b4?not...](http://luminotes.com/notebooks/74uqe3cecagabucmrvwls33b4?note_id=1bm7kfdhgxljhaab5yzxnf467)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Dunno man. I won't bother using it because I feel like you may change the price in the future. There are no guarantees, particularly since I know it's just a guy with a mac running this thing. I don't want to store stuff in there and then one day it's gone...

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't know where you got the idea about "a guy with a Mac'. I'm on a ThinkPad running Debian, and the servers are Debian as well. :)

I should point out that while your concern may be legitimate, you can download your entire wiki as HTML whenever you want. So if for whatever reason you don't like the service at some point, there's no lock-in.

If there's another download format that would make you feel more comfortable, please do let me know.

<comment><USER13> To stoke the flamefire: you know Debian hasn't had the most stellar security reputation as of late, right? :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Let me just say that if anyone hasn't regenerated their Debian/Ubuntu SSH keys by now, they don't deserve to remain in business.

But this isn't really relevant to the discussion..

<comment><USER14> Dude, don't take the flamebait. The person your replying to is just trying to make you mad. Don't waste your time acknowledging his existence, it just makes him want to troll more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Needs  tags.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's a JavaScript-based personal wiki. What should the  tags do? Are you suggesting that there should be a fallback to JavaScript-less text areas?

Note that you can view the wiki pages without JavaScript. You only need JavaScript to edit them.

<comment><USER15> If javscript is unavoidable I always put in noscript tags that simply say so, but don't otherwise do anything.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh okay. I have such a  tag on some pages, but not all of them. For instance, see <https://luminotes.com/sign_up> with JavaScript turned off.

I guess I should add similar tags to the other pages as well.

UPDATE: Added  to main wiki page.

<comment><USER13> Thanks.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


What is the software engineering scene like in Amsterdam? - <AUTHOR> I'm considering a move from San Francisco to Amsterdam. Obviously it's quite easy to find work as a software engineer in SF, but what is the scene like in Amsterdam? Is it easy to find work as a non-Dutch speaking expat? Any general tips for making such a transition?<p>Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> Haven't been to San Francisco. So I can only give you my view of Amsterdam. And it's pretty disappointing for software engineers.

Basically, web development and mobile are king. And not in the good way. Both startups and bigger companies are focused on it. So if you're not into them, you will have a tough time finding a job. There are some engineering jobs too. But they are usually for support purposes. Banking, automotive, industrial etc. You work on software that supports another product. And you're basically non-essential personnel.

The startup scene is not very impressive. A small hub, an accelerator once a year and some meetups (mostly web dev). However, you will find plenty of coworking spaces. And there aren't many software companies either. Amsterdam is a small city. You will easily finish going through all of them in a couple of days.

When it comes to expats, Amsterdam is a city of self-employment. You either do some freelancing, work a low-paying job in hospitality or work on your startup. There are some expats with higher paying jobs. But they are the lucky ones. It takes a while until you find something. There are plenty of expats and dutch people looking for a job. And layoffs have become a common occurrence since the crisis finally hit the Netherlands. So trying to find something will be pretty hard.

So if you want to move, bring cash. You're going to need it.

<comment><USER3> that is not good advice. developer meetings through meetup are happening almost every day. there are a lot of companies that produce software and you don't need to be a freelancer (why come to Amsterdam to freelance?). The above text applied very well to people that are looking for common jobs like business managers,salesmen,hospitality professionals etc. If you consider yourself a good programmer with a good CV come to Amsterdam or alternatively go to Berlin or London.

<comment><USER2> I lived in Amsterdam for the most part of last year. And dev meetups are rare and it's usually web stuff or startups.

There are only two types of meetings that happen almost every day:

1\. The Appsterdam hub meetings. And they aren't for software engineers. It's mostly random startup people networking in the hopes of finding something.

2\. The expat meetings. And it's mostly random expats networking in the hopes of finding something. Or at least trying to have a good time.

If you know any software engineering meetings, post them here so everybody who is interested can save some time. But I agree with Berlin and London. You can have more success there. Bigger cities with a lot more companies and communities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm a Freelance webdev living in Amsterdam for my whole live (27 years).

Worked for a few successful start-ups that moved on to become big players in their industry. As said, most software development is web/app based (startups). E-Commerce and mobile to be specific.

That said there is ample opportunity for Java/C++ engineers. These trades are often sparse here and I always see a lot of Vacancies in that area.

If you are unsure, check out some dutch vacancy sites. E.g [1] (I have no idea why they won't translate their site, most employers value English speaking devs). Companies I've worked at are always mixed ethnically. I've worked with devs from Ukraine, Romania, Britain etc. More and more companies are flying over people from other parts of Europe. System engineers are always welcomed as well. Even in web dev where it looks like there is a lot of saturation, highly experienced people are always in demand. Even in PHP I often get messaged for jobs primarily for Symfony2 experience.

Overall though you will probably find the pay to be not so great compared to The Valley and for example London.. I would advice you to proceed cautiously and start sending in your open resumé or applying to some jobs through the web and get a feel at least.

[1] www.itjobboard.nl

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the advice. What would you say the average salary for an engineer with 5-6 years of experience is? I'm trying to get a sense of what kind of rent I'll be able to afford.

<comment><USER2> Rent is about 1000 euros per month with everything included. Maybe less, maybe more depending on the area.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm also from SF, and for me, few places in the world can approach the Bay Area in terms of innovation and technology. For me, Amsterdam is one of the places that comes close. I've been living back and forth between SF/Marin and Amsterdam since 2006. You'll find a buzzing community there around software development, entrepreneurship, and innovation. (However, if you're ever looking for VC funding, the Bay Area is leagues better than the Randstad.)

If you're looking for an employee-style relationship: To work legally, you'll want to find a Dutch company to sponsor you so that you can get a work permit. Another option is to get hired in the states by a MNC and get transferred.

Personally, I elected create a corporation in California, hire myself, and get Dutch clients for our company. I travel enough that I can make due with the 90 day out of every 6-months visa-free Schengen option. Dutch companies tend to like to do business with other culturally Dutch companies. (Technology companies, however, are generally much more progressive in this regard.) If you go this route, definitely have a Dutch-language web presence and consider having a Dutch-speaking sales person as these will work wonders.

Also, if you're into cars, one very cool thing about NL and neighboring Germany is that you can rent proper german cars, like M3's and Porsche turbos. In NL the traffic can be a bit crowded and you have to watch out for the camera boxes (Gatso's). I recommend taking the ICE train over to Düsseldorf. They have a very nice selection of cars at the DÜS airport and the A3 is great for some autobahn therapy.

Let me know if there's anything or anyone I can help you get connected with in NL.

<comment><USER6> Hi, how can I get in touch? I'm moving to Amsterdam next month, but would also be interested to chat about your experiences on continuous travel.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I had a brief time in Amsterdam last summer during my summer travels and it seemed to be a good scene, albeit a little scattered. That being said there are some co-working hubs like A-Lab and meetups like Appsterdammers ([http://www.meetup.com/Appsterdam/](http://www.meetup.com/Appsterdam/)) and their weekly event Meeten En Drinken amongst other more formal events. Mike Lemur (@bmf on twitter) founded both those and is THE guy I would point you to as he made a similar move from SF to Amsterdam just a few years back. It was a very inclusive vibe and a lot of fun.

</comment><comment><USER8> It's awesome. If you're doing Rails or Java, get in touch, I may be able to make you a nice offer :-) ariejan at ariejan.net

</comment><comment><USER9> Send me a pm at baskohnke (at) gmail . com. I am Dutch and run a YC start up in SF. Happy to tell you more about the Dutch scene.

<comment><USER10> Please just reply on the thread so that everybody can benefit from your knowledge.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Discover all social profiles of people in a single click - <AUTHOR> http://stalky.in <comment><USER2> or simply use [https://about.me](https://about.me)

<comment><AUTHOR> Couldn't search for celerities about.me profiles.</comment></comment>


Can thoughts exist without words(code)? - <AUTHOR>

For the most part, the "audio" stream of what I would consider my consciousness reads as words. Excluding the visual stream, I usually hear a voice in my head (usually Peter Griffin) orating whatever bs is going on in my thoughts at the time.
Question: What did our consciousness "talk" like before we had a firm grasp of a spoken language?
For example:
Can an infant that hasn't learned a language yet talk to his/herself?
If so, how would that stream of information be "tokenized"?
If you can tokenize this stream, and if higher level languages (like English) can presumably be built on top of it, does that make this the "assembly" language common to all spoken languages?
[P.S. No clue how we would know, just fun to think about :) ] <comment><USER2> [http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/17r570/is_there_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/17r570/is_there_thought_without_language/) is a possible source of thoughts?

<comment><AUTHOR> yeah it looks like some ideas were the Mental Rotation concept ( [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_rotation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_rotation) ) (which is an example of non-linguistic thought) . What interests me most is finding that "assembly language" if such exists

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z-ul0GzzM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z-ul0GzzM4)</comment></comment></comment>


In China, Betting It All on a Child in College - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/business/in-china-families-bet-it-all-on-a-child-in-college.html?pagewanted=4&ref=business&pagewanted=all <comment><USER2> Very common here in India too. At least when I was studying it was all about, "Get your kid to do Engineering/Medicine and then every thing will take care of itself".

There is a big reason for this. Uneducated people get played for easily and there is that huge disadvantage in non-knowledge driven based jobs. Take for example the job of a cab/bus driver. Or some body like mason, the problem the money you earn is directly related to number or hours/quantity of work you get delivered. And since quantity is largely related to a physical activity in this case. It means you will do a lot of physical labor to earn more money. This is not scalable and becomes blatantly clear to a lot of people involved in this. Add to this that these kinds of jobs don't get much social respect.

My dad was a bus driver. And I know what it was for me as a kid. It was always to study my ass off or be doomed. And yes all other standard social problems apply. You are always considered poor and assumed to remain such till eternity. No one likes knowing that he being a educated white collar knowledge worker, his kids and the kids of a bus driver ultimately get the same destiny. I even had problems getting married. Coming from a low financial background creates big problems. People find it hard to accept if you win, and pass sympathies if you don't.

So the only way remains: Study and fight your way out of the situation.

My teenage through early 20's was the most stressful phase of my life. Because failure was not an option. No money to do business, So if I fail it will going back to same life.

I'm not saying life is rosy as a programmer. It has its own problems both financial and in other aspects of life. But yet its far better than what I saw in early parts of my life(Nothing I will tell you, can explain you what it feels to be in that place- I only hope no other kid goes through that). I don't feel sad that I can't buy an iPhone. But rather its satisfying to know I don't have break my back just to eat, wear clothes and live under a roof.

Its still same here in India for a large number of people. Education and a white collar job doesn't fix all problems. But it does fix enough problems in your life to make it livable.

<comment><USER3> >> Nothing I will tell you, can explain you what it feels to be in that place- I only hope no other kid goes through that ..

I can understand what you're trying to say, the problems, issues and challenges are on so many levels and there are so many layers that unless you experience it yourself there is no way you can put words to it ...

\- first of all, parents are uneducated and to motivate them to educate their kids is the biggest challenge of all ...

\- then double it with lack of resources (this includes time, money, energy, good schools, good teachers etc.)

\- triple this with no free schooling in india, not even primary , there may be few government schools which are like good for nothing (although there might be an exception like one in million)

\- then there is peer pressure for parents whose kids are not earning but spending time in school.

\- then there is huge corruption and bureaucracy

\- then there are other family responsibilities like getting your sister married (when u dont even have money for your kids school fees or even worst when you cant provide proper food, clothing and shelter) OR taking care of your elderly parents when you cant afford medicines OR someone died in the family and you have to burden the burial cost etc etc etc..

And the list goes on and on.....

SO I SALUTE to all those parents who won uphill battle by going against the tide and made sure that their kids are well educated ...

<comment><USER4> One of the very interesting aspects of Indian culture is that there is (or used to be) a very high social respect for a "well-educated" person. So if you have a PhD, then even if you don't make a ton of money, you get the same social status as a wealthy businessman. I don't know why this is so, but it has led to nearly everyone desiring their children to have a better education than they did and escape from the grips of poverty.

There is a paragraph in Richard Feynman's "What do you care what other people think?" where a carribean cab driver asks Feynman how is it that his Indian neighbor (presumably of the same economic standing) has a son studying medicine at Maryland? Which is when Feynman explains this hypothesis.

<comment><USER5> There are still parts of India where there is tremendous social respect for "well educated" people. This can be easily seen if you observe Matrimonial ads. It would be clearly mentioned that people are looking for someone with college degrees, post graduate degrees etc.

On a tangential, I have always found matrimonial ads a very interesting mirror on the Indian society. The way these ads show people's ambitions and fears is amazing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Youths from poor and rural families consistently end up paying much higher tuition in China than children from affluent and urban families. Yet they attend considerably worse institutions, education finance specialists say...The reason is that few children from poor families earn top marks on the national exams. So they are shunted to lower-quality schools that receive the smallest government subsidies. The result is that higher education is rapidly losing its role as a social leveler in China and as a safety valve for talented but poor youths to escape poverty."

So that's certainly true in America, and perhaps even more so in China. I think platforms like Coursera/Udacity can start leveling the playing field again for two reasons: first, if the technology is good enough (from personal experience, I would say so) and remains free, the studying-resources gap between rich and poor shrinks; second, even if you can't squeeze your way into a top school, you can still get a top-notch education for free. At the end of the day, i'm grossly oversimplifying things (i.e. the weight of credentials in Chinese society probably still far outweight actual demonstrated skill-set; or consider for a moment whether a family that lives on rice and a few vegetables a day can realistically afford a computer+internet-connection for their kids...), but i still think there's a sizable impact in here somewhere.

<comment><USER7> > or consider for a moment whether a family that lives on rice and a few > vegetables a day can realistically afford a computer+internet-connection for > their kids...

Only the absolute poorest Chinese won't be able to get internet access and a computer. The computer might cost ~1000 RMB (2 month's salary, for an extremely poor household). Maybe less, if they can put up with an old P4 getting tossed out by an internet cafe, which is now the color of a smoker's lungs. Internet will be ~50 to 100 RMB a month, and that's entertainment (and information) for the whole family. Getting access to online courses (which might rely on YouTube, which is blocked) might be tricky, as is the language barrier, but I'm sure China will have localised versions of the course. It's a major cost, but Chinese aren't starving, just poor. Once you have more than $2 a day, food isn't the only priority; healthcare and education is.

Migrant workers might be worse off than the poorest peasants, though, as they may not have a stable abode. You can't get your kid a computer if you're sharing a shanty-town room with 2 other families. Plus, getting a connection might not be possible. That's probably why migrant workers often leave their kids with grandma.

And yes, credentialism is an issue.

<comment><USER8> > language barrier [for online courses]

Well, not really, there is a huge part of online courses translated/subtitled to Chinese. That's my wife's job actually.

<comment><USER9> On behalf of all _non-native speakers from all over the World_ , who are trying their best to catch up with this whirlwind of booms-bust cycles, forced obsolescence, eroding of ways of life, and many other hardships that I cannot remember right away, just to try to make a [better] life [if not for themselves] for their loved ones, I would like to thank people like your wife for helping them in whatever manner possible.

<comment><USER10> Well, they (the Chinese) already crowd sourcing their own subtitles for entertainment shows like Big Bang Theory. I don't see why that wouldn't happen in the courseware space as well, it is one of those things in China that is truly a creative commons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Here in rural China (on and off ~11 years), honestly the most educated and worldly person I spoke to in the last week or so was an exotic dancer from another province who had picked up some foreign language and was evidently far more intelligent and motivated than the majority of downtrodden graduates. She said she didn't finish high school. I thought to myself: "that's probably causation not just correlation".

<comment><USER10> > was an exotic dancer from another province

Do you mean rural china or a second/third tier city? I'm not sure what an exotic dancer would be doing in a village.

<comment><USER12> I was at a small Sichuan mountain village wedding a few weeks back. Several "exotic" dancers and the village drag queen and a magician. All locals. Great performances. The most fun I've had at a Chinese weeding ;)

<comment><USER10> Was it a Han or Zang area? Sounds very interesting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I can confirm this from my experience in China (~9 years), but would be a little more positive on the outcome for the graduates. It is still relatively easy to find a job and turn-over is high. In the companies where I have worked, in the university I have attended, I have seen some of these employees coming from very poor families: most are hard-working and clever, and usually can make their way into the higher strates of society (up to a level).

<comment><USER13> I've never understood that notion of social stratification applied to modern socities. What kind of classes are we talking about? Isn't it just a plain linear function of your income?

<comment><USER8> Why, no, certainly not. A scholar or a writer or an artist might be able to kiss a queen on the cheeks while having very low income.

<comment><USER13> The queen is just a humorous tradition in any modern civilized country. Your argument is quite stupid.

<comment><USER4> Humorous, but very real in some. Since the queen is at the zenith of social standing, his statement is quite correct

<comment><USER13> This is the current human mentality: no lower boundary for sanity. Any nonsense may be considered correct if it has support from stereotypes or prejudices.

<comment><USER8> To me using income as social scale is insane. It would give a very high position to cartel bosses, and these guys should be on the bottom.

If you'd need a social scale for some l practical reason, I suppose the only workable one is education level. it ids not fair to everyone but I think it is the last horrible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I would be interested to see some analysis as far as what these students are studying, not just in this article, but in all articles that attempt to account for career placement of college students in any way. Studying electrical engineering will provide a completely different likelihood of graduate employment than will studying humanities.

In this particular article these statistics I assume, would move the needle. I hope it's not considered "racist" of me to say so, but from my experience living in China and cross-studying in the humanities and computer science, Chinese students tend to study the hard sciences (engineering, science, accounting), whereas I never even saw a Chinese student in any of my humanities classes.

<comment><USER15> They point out in the article that these courses tend to be more like community college courses - in practical topics like logistics. You're looking at this from the Western point of view, where students are encourages to take absolutely any topic, just so long as they get a BA.

<comment><USER14> As did the article. There were a lot of stats about grad rates, but nothing specific to Chinese immigrants/students.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> When I click this link to read, the page turns out to be not avaliable…… I should get access to it by ssh, I suddenly remind that I am just a junior studying in China.

</comment><comment><USER17> What will happen when countries will start producing tons of graduates but not enough white collar jobs? I fear it will create very unhealthy dynamics in the society.

<comment> guard-of-terra Rumours tell what's what happened in Cambodia before Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge.

Too many liberal arts & french classical literature graduates, no viable agriculture to feed the country without external help, help being cut.

<comment><USER18> I've never heard this before. I think that pre Khmer Rouge Cambodia had a tiny graduate population <1% and had no issue of agricultural production apart from the intrinsic vulnerability of subsistence farming to crop failure and famine. The disaster of year 0 was not the result of either external aid or poor education, rather it was a political decision supported by regional powers for geo-political ends.

<comment> guard-of-terra <http://arkhip.livejournal.com/341078.html> This is where I took this from (You can use some translation service) And it states that most of Pol Pot's cabinet were graduates of universities, more than half of them Sorbonne.

And then it tells about previous ruler investing in education heavily without then caring about employment of graduates, all this on top of population surge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I wonder how effective either MOOCs or peer to peer (Chinese person chatting online with a native English speaker) could be for language skills.

</comment><comment><USER20> They describe a sub-project examining the DNA of people with IQ > 160? On the basis of 'one fact can slay a theory', I would suggest that the example of Richard Feynman (IQ at 124) indicates that this study may garner a rather small return on investment. Of course it depends on exactly what they are looking for.

<comment><USER21> According to wikipedia that figure for Feynman seems to be based on 1 IQ test he did in high school.

I'm assuming IQ testing practises have improved since then, it is also possible that his IQ raised significantly as he got older due to extensive study as it is also possible that his IQ test was simply poorly administered for whatever reason.

<comment><USER22> >>t is also possible that his IQ raised significantly as he got older due to extensive study as it is also possible that his IQ test was simply poorly administered for whatever reason.

Which is why an IQ is useless. If it can rise then it is not really measuring intelligence. Rather it is measuring what you know so far. Which explains why kids from better income families have better IQs.

And yet people treat IQ as a constant. Glad I decided never to let a single number define me. To all you that believe the IQ is important I say ...

<comment><USER21> I'm not an IQ expert by any stretch but I doubt that it fluctuates that much (in the population in general). Based on the limited reading I have done your IQ will tend to rise as you get older, however in general people will stay in roughly the same position relative to others.

Whilst you can probably influence your IQ by working your brain really hard every day or lower it by doing a lot of drugs I doubt it is really that meaningless as it does tend to correlate well with success.

However I'd be curious to know how it correlates with lifetime income once you control for family income. I assume this has been researched.

<comment><USER22> Since we are making anecdotal observations I'll posit that you could significantly increase your IQ if you focused on it. Just like if you wanted to play an instrument. You can increase your playing ability by focusing on it, or more specifically, by practicing. That is how I see IQ, as something that you can get better at by practicing, nothing more, nothing less.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Really recommend watching The Last Train Home. It's a documentary about a family that works in Guangzhou in order to pay for their children's education in their rural village. Deals with many of these same issues. And is a haunting and fantastic documentary. Also it's available on netflix

<comment><USER24> For those who cannot access netflix: <http://documentarylovers.net/last-train- home/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Am I the only who feels like the parents mostly only care about themselves than their daughter? It sounded like that to me.

<comment><USER26> In traditional Chinese society each generation cares for the one before it. This assumes many forms - from mere social expectation to actual tithes of your income to your parents.

There is some incentive to maximize a child's success in order to ensure your own retirement - after all, if they can't make ends meet, you're even worse off.

This may seem strange by western standards, but I'd caution against extrapolating this to mean that the parents don't care for their child. The parent-child relationship in Chinese society is different than it is modern American society, but parents universally care deeply about the well-being of their children.

A big caveat to all of the above is that modern, urban Chinese society is _very_ rapidly shedding this model. There remains a sticky issue of there being a massive "lost generation" who suffered financially caring for their own parents, but due to shifting societal mores, cannot expect the same from their own children.

<comment><USER27> > This may seem strange by western standards, but I'd caution against > extrapolating this to mean that the parents don't care for their child.

It shouldn't be strange by Western standards. It was the way it was in the US before WWII or so. It also works very well because it frees up what might otherwise go into retirement savings, and this gets spent on helping the kids get established instead.

I am not in China, but my wife is Chinese-Indonesian and her mother is starting to get closer to retirement, and that system, while it has transformed in urban environments like Jakarta, is still very much alive at least among the Chinese diaspora here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Right now, after the sanctions, in Iran a software engineer earns 500$ a month (It is a good salary right now in Iran). So seems china is not bad at all comparing to Iran.

<comment><USER29> You can't really compare salary without taking into account the cost of living there

<comment><USER30> It is amazing how many people do not understand this.

<comment><USER28> Believe me, I live in Iran and I understand this. First, cost of living in Iran is now really a pain in the ass. Prices in Iran are now raising with the speed of light but salaries in Iran are decreasing. I know people who can not afford their food in Iran. I understood the article and I completely understand people in china. I just saw that in the article, and it was just amazing for myself to compare economy in China with Iran. In Iran parents also work so hard to provide their children's cost of education. A term in a college in Iran costs about 400$ and a normal salary here is about 250$ a month. When you are living in a country with the one of the worst economies in the world, these things in an article gather your attention.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> This seems a little off-topic for HN.

<comment><USER6> Not really. There's an education bubble: too many applicants; not enough resources. Coursera/Udacity...etc may change that significantly over time. This may significantly impact the very people this article talks about. I think it's good for HN to perceive from time to time the tangential impact of technology on everyday life.</comment></comment>


Think Outside the Box- The Businessman Box Joke - <AUTHOR>

Let's assume that there is a box that inside contains a highly valuable object, we just don't know what it is. There comes three businessman from across the globe to solve this problem. The Latin American businessman tells his team: "Let's break the box open and get whatever is inside!" The American businessman tells his team: "Let's repackage the box, make it look fanciful and desirable, and sell it!" The Asian businessman tells his team: "Let's copy the box, make it from more economic materials, and sell it with nothing inside!" The entrepreneur comes and says: "Who gives a damn what is inside? Let's invent our own treasure box!"<p>Do you get the joke? The first one robs, the second one lies, and the third one copies. Who thinks 'outside the box'? If you are the customer, who do think you will like to do business with? <comment><USER2> I guess that makes me the Canadian who was too polite to open the box?

Sometimes a little bit of self-censorship goes a long way. You should question why you'd repost something like this.

</comment><comment><USER3> Solve _what_ problem?

As a south-american, I'm not pleased. But if the problem was _knowing what's inside_ , it's pretty clear who solved it.

You also missed the black guys from Africa, who said "umama kumnandi umklomelo!", made a fire and danced around it.</comment>


If you build it, they won't come, unless... - <AUTHOR> http://blog.asmartbear.com/startup-marketing-ideas.html <comment><USER2> _It took me five years to figure out (a) I needed a story and (b) what the story was. It's hard. But one story beats a pile of AdWords A/B tests._

I have found that there are 2 kinds of stories: classes and instances...

Class: "X can solve problem Y using our product."

Instances:

"Acme saved $30,000 per month by figuring out how to better load their trucks using our optimization software."

"The Smith family had their first ever reunion when John and Linda Smith realized how easy our family organizing software was."

"Jones Gifts doubled their sales in 3 months using our bolt-on e-commerce solution."

The class is good. The instance is better. People love stories and the instance is a real story, while the class is the framework for a potential story. The class is a commercial; the instance is a testimonial. Also, an example cuts through all the clutter right to the reader's reptilian brain. Naturally, the closer the instance is to the reader's situation, the better.

OP's story was a class. I would have loved to hear a few instances of that class: some real stories about people who got real benefit from his product. People naturally want to know about other people.

<comment><USER3> Does that vary based on the kind of product (and has anybody studied with any rigor how class v. instance stories work)?

The BigCorp engineers I know _really hate_ instance stories when trying to find information on possible products they might use; they view those stories as being mainly targeted at managers. Especially true if it's hard to find anything _but_ those kinds of stories, which is the case with a lot of enterprise offerings. "Tell me what the damn thing does, not this marketingspeak about how SomeCorp leveraged your solution to save $3m" kind of thing.

<comment><USER4> Raising the interesting question, do _manager_ types or _developer_ types drive people past your product?

IE, professional bloggers and journalists. Are they more likely to be appealed too by the story, or the function? Sure, they're not buying your product, but they're advising the people who do.

And, you're right, some of them ARE technical people, and PREFER the function. But just as likely, more in my opinion, they're not.

If you're trying to market an optional solution (IE, one that adds value but isn't critical... Fun Unit Testing status lights, instead of IDEs) then you might NEED the story to let people know they WANT your product.

I agree entirely it's great to know what something does. I prefer it, but I don't think 'the market' (God I sound like a douche) does.

I often say when out, "What's inside counts... But what's outside gets them close enough to find out", because it's true. Look kinda creepy? No-one's going to want to find out the weird scar is from when you had an accident while drift-racing to fundraise for the "Save the Adorable Baby Panda from Breast Cancer" foundation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe I'm old school, but I think it comes down to work.

When I was the publicity directory of a college radio station at a small school, I'd put up 300-400 letter-sized posters to promote a dance with maybe 7-8 distinct designs. This would change the appearance of the campus and pack the house.

A lot of people, doing the same job, would put up 10 or 20 posters of the same design and waste more energy vociferously defending their right to be lazy and that "everybody will see them" than it would take to just make all the designs and walk around putting the signs up.

The main reason people fail at SEO and SMO is that they radically underestimate how much work is required to succeed. That's good news for people who do work hard, because out of 20 potential competitors, 18 of them are easy to beat.

<comment><USER6> ...and getting backlinks is one of the areas where people most underestimate the amount of work required to do well. Everyone _wishes_ on page factors made a much bigger difference than they actually do.

<comment><USER5> you bet.

sometimes you get in a groove and you can get a lot of good links very quickly; over time you might develop relationships with people who can help you.

but, overall, this is emotionally difficult work where you can sometimes feel like you spent a whole day and accomplished nothing. it's a lot like cold calling, and it's just as necessary/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Yes, you're going to do those things, but since millions of other people are doing that too, you're still invisible. Visibility-fail. Anyone-gives-a-crap- fail."

Hmmm..., I think we can say millions of people do (or will do in the near future) the methods you describe. I don't see why are those methods harder to do than the methods you categorize as default stuff.

I think what is hard is product market fit. You say:

"Ask a technical founder about his startup, and he'll proudly describe his stunning software — simple, compelling, useful, fun."

I think mostly this is the most important stuff unless someone is really incompetent at marketing. I think a really good product cannot win without any marketing, but a really good product can win with 'routine' marketing.

Product market fit is always important. Whether even technical merits are very important depends on how hard the problem technically is. Why there are no other machine tranlators than Google Translate? Because they have bad marketing? No, because the problem is incredibly hard technically.

</comment><comment><USER8> Or, if you're not VC-funded, just start small and grow organically by word of mouth, if it's truly a good idea? Rather than try to hit a home run at launch? That also gives you more time to ramp up for demand, as you learn how to do it.

That's certainly the approach I plan to take...

</comment><comment><USER9> _While everyone else is mucking about with a new blog...we're years ahead in the marketing war._

So, we should "tell [our] story" but we'll really just be "mucking about"?

</comment><comment><USER10> Question: by triage did you mean arbitrage and if not what does triage mean in the context of Adwords?

</comment><comment><USER11> The greater lesson in here is to stay on top of the times, to differentiate yoursef:

> The obvious problem is that every new startup on Earth says exactly these > things. Nowadays the "strategy" above sounds the same as:

>> "We'll have a website so people can read about us."

>> "We'll have an email address so people can communicate with us without picking up the phone."

> Yes, you're going to do those things, but since millions of other people are > doing that too, you're still invisible. Visibility-fail. Anyone-gives-a- > crap-fail.

I've certainly been guilty of thinking this way, but that example certainly casts such 'strategies' in a different light...

</comment><comment><USER12> unless we linkbait? ;)

</comment><comment><USER13> Thanks. Great piece and useful tips.</comment>


How useful is a Physics degree? - <AUTHOR> I will graduate with a physics degree in a few years, since starting I've become more and more interested in programming.<p>My question is will I be able to compete with Computer Science graduates, assuming I know the relevant programming languages and have some experience? <comment><USER4> You don't have to compete with CS grads. There aren't enough of them. (Even if we assume that they are all brilliant and charming and competent and productive and interested in working on what the customers need and will pay for... which we do, of course. ;)

Moreover, much of what needs to be done with programming doesn't require CS knowledge as such, but rather a lot of ancillary skills that aren't taught in any school; some of them are barely even mentioned in books. There you and the CS majors start out tied.

Conspicuous among that set of skills are business skills: Not MBA stuff, but things like "here is a potential customer: what are their actual problems, can I help solve them, can I prove that to myself, can I prove that to them using words they will understand and like, will they really pay me?" So much of your work will be about these things, in programming _or_ in physics, and CS training doesn't teach them any more than stat mech class does.

</comment><comment><USER5> Minor quibbling point, not necessarily relevant to your question: The point of a college education is not just job skills per se. If you want skills for a specific job, you typically are sent for _training_ rather than education. My sister, who has vastly superior job hunting skills to mine, always said that unless you want to be something like a doctor or lawyer, your major is largely irrelevant but having a degree (any degree) is important to get your foot in the door.

I will close with one of my favorite anecdotes: Michael Crichton wanted to be a writer. His family told him he was crazy, you cannot support yourself that way and encouraged him to be a doctor. So he went to medical school. And his first book was published before he graduated, so he never did work as a doctor. Still, his overwhelmingly successful books and movies are all the richer due to his educational background. _Jurassic Park_ and other works would not be so compelling if, like so many authors, he had some throwaway explanation like "er...radiation! That's it!"

Not intended as advice, which is nearly "against my religion". Intended only as food for thought.

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER6> I signed up for this comment.

I graduated from a small liberal arts school with a degree in Physics (and a minor in CS). I actually would have done Computer Science, but the university's program didn't teach the things I was interested in -- but let me be clear: computers were my primary passion.

I got a software engineering job offer after graduation, but I decided to go to grad school instead and I'm now finishing a masters in Computer Science. When I started, I was worried that not having a BS in Computer Science would handicap me compared to other students, but it didn't seem to (or at least grad school is hard enough for everyone that I didn't stand out).

My work and my interests are in Free Software, and what I'm finding out in applying for jobs is that companies (especially those that deal with Free Software) care very much about your contributions to Free Software. It's obviously easier to get a handle on someone's skills if their entire portfolio of work is available in public git repositories.

In working with different projects, I've also gotten to know developers who work on the teams that I'm applying for jobs on. I feel like this gives an extra advantage that's not easily available in other fields.

The summary of this is that the degree doesn't matter so much. What matters (at least in the world of Free Software) is what have you contributed and who have you worked with.

Another data point: a number of really good software developers at Red Hat have non-computer degrees or no degrees at all.

Owen Taylor (GNOME) - <USER2>

Jerome Glisse (AMD driver) - PhD in Biology

Matthew Garret (Kernel, power management) - PhD in Biology

Ben Skeggs (Nouveau driver) - no degree

</comment><comment><USER7> Disclaimer: I have a degrees in both CS and Physics.

If you learn C/C++ programming, you'll be able to get a job at an investment bank and won't have to worry about money. If that's something that attracts you, study (and write code) in a field where Monte Carlo simulations are used, like lattice gauge theory, which is a lot of fun and will help you understand QFTs. Here's some links to get started:

<http://latticeguy.net/mypubs/pubs.html>

Some C code:

<http://thy.phy.bnl.gov/~creutz/z2/>

If you want to do something like a web startup and learn Ruby on Rails, then Physics won't help you much. You'll just be on equal footing with CS guys, if you put in the time.

PS: Most physicist I know are absolutely terrible software engineers. If you're going to write larger programs, please read some books about how to write larger programs!

</comment><comment><USER8> I look at the difference between a computer science major and physics major like the difference between an english major and a history major. The first has an in depth knowledge of writing & literature: its history, limitations, how it got to its present state. The later knows none of that, but has a lot to say about history and uses writing as a tool. I've rarely seen history majors worrying about competing with english majors for writing jobs. They bring something different, and valuable, to the table.

Being a physicist, you probably can't wax eloquently on the tradeoffs of functional v. object v. imperative programming styles. Or the subtle nuances between closures and Lisp and closures in Javascript. But that is Ok because you will use code to say something useful about the world around you.

Your physics training will help you do these things (and more) in the software world: identify patterns in large datasets; predict the evolution of a complex system; create models of real world processes; reason about how a black-box system might be working.

These skills are in demand. If you focus on these aspects from your physics training you should have no problem competing with the computer science majors.

BTW, I have a PhD in Physics. A little over 6 years ago I stopped doing physics and engineering full time and focused on what can best be described as computer science full time. I'm also an adjunct professor of Computer Science.

</comment><comment><USER9> I'm about to graduate with a degree in Physics. While the degree itself is brilliant I don't really think it is incredibly helpful in the startup world.

You do learn C, Mathematica, MatLab, etc, which means you will at least know what is going on when you look at code, but by itself this is not enough.

Something that has definitely helped me was taking a Microprocessors course, where you learn Assembly, which meant really understanding computational processes like memory, power, speed. I was lucky that we were able to create a standalone project that really helped solidify all the theoretical ideas. If If you can do a course like this, I highly recommend it.

Unless you spend as much time auditing CS courses as you do in Physics lectures (and really have the commitment to learn both), you will not leave with the same knowledge as a CS student, but if you put in the work, you can be competent.

I really have only one piece of advice: If you want to build applications once you graduate, start building now. It doesn't matter if they aren't brilliant or even good for that matter; build. It doesn't matter if they don't look incredible; build. It doesn't matter what languages or frameworks you learn; build. If you do this, with time, you will learn that you can learn most things relatively quickly and be competent in whatever it is you decide to do after graduating, because you spent time hammering away, grinding and really learning.

</comment><comment><USER10> Sounds very familiar ;)

I have an econophysics degree, work in IT and can easily compete with CS graduates. Started my first job as a software developer and now I'm the head of my own development team and also responsible for hiring.

As a physicist you are a problem solver: You will learn how to learn, how to tackle complex challenges in a systematic way and analyze experiments. These skills are very useful. If your physics and math knowledge helps you later on depends on your future job. My own work does not involve physics, nor any non- trivial math.

The biggest hurdle will be getting your first job in IT: You have to show that you are as capable as a CS graduate. That's easier if you apply for jobs that don't focus on algorithms, for example systems programming. Though some companies will only hire CS graduates and miss the chance to get cross-domain knowledge...

So how to show the hiring manager that you are good at writing software? Write (open source) software, mention projects on your CV and also in your cover letter. I love to see links to github / bitbucket on a CV.

If you have passion for writing software, are willing to invest a huge amount of time and you know how to teach yourself then you can be become a great software developer.

</comment><comment><USER11> You're hired! :-)

Really tho--if you have a passion for CS, but studied Physics, you have the capacity to excel. I fell in love with the ordered-ness of computers and self- taught myself programming in my teens. I went to college and studied Physics knowing I would likely not continue as a career physicist. During college I found that between my basic programming knowledge and physics requirements I had covered a large portion of the CompSci major (except for the upper division classes). I tested out of some and then took the others to end up with CompSci + Physics degrees.

Since graduating, I've benefited from my CompSci degree in areas like data structures, runtime complexity and parsing--but the rest of my CompSci skills were self-taught before or afterwards ("the Internet" was not in my CompSci curriculum).

I believe I've benefited more from my Physics training. Specifically--the Socratic method of looking at root causes in a systematic and problem- simplifying manner. And I've never been daunted by a hard problem or one that needs theoretical analysis for an elegant solution.

Given all of the above, some of the best programmers I've met have no degrees --so passion and willingness to self-learn trump all.

</comment><comment><USER12> I have a PhD in physics. Most physicists cannot avoid doing some coding, and will tend to focus on simulations and numerical algorithms. Most physicists I know that have left the field are in the high-tech world. If you have successfully completed a physics degree, you have picked up a way of looking at the world, and you will have an attraction for simple, elegant solutions. If you are an experimental physicist (this distinction only comes into play if you work towards a PhD) you will develop an ability to deal effectively with the practicalities of limited resources and time. If you want to compete in getting a job, have some coding experience you can show, spend some time boning up on algorithms. Younger technical interviewers will focus on algorithms and whatever they are having a problem with at the moment. They are the ones you will have to convince. More experienced interviewers will be looking at how you think and solve problems, and a physicist won't usually have a problem with those.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm a developer who studied Physics, and yes, you certainly can compete.

I did a few CS papers but I was frustrated by what I considered low level _practical_ and overly complex _theoretcial_ skills I was learning. That's fine - University should focus on the theoretical - but it doesn't always result in _employable_ skill. Heck, it's possible to get a CS degree without doing that much actual programming.

In my opinion, Physics gives you useful thought processes and solid math skills. A physicist has to relate the real world to theoretical models, something that a programmer has to do every day. Also, many of my physics lab experiments entailed computer analysis of the results. You had to take real- world data and get useful information by programming something - <USER3> that not all CS majors seem to have to deal with.

You _will_ have to prove yourself - but if you've been working on open source projects or have a portfolio of high quality work, that will count more than a CS degree for many employers.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have a graduate physics degree and I am working on a second one. As far as I can tell so far you will be quite competitive with CS graduates, though you may have to start off at a lower position than some. The other thing is you will have to know exactly what kind of job to apply for and have skills specific to that area. No matter what I think you should have a good grasp of optimization and vectorization of algorithms as well as knowledge of parallell and massively parallell programming. The programming jobs that I have seen that want physicists tend to want them to make math do very complicated things very quickly. The other thing people want physicists for is to model complex systems. There is no shortage of people who want physicist for that. Sharpen your mathematical programmign skills. You don't necessarily need to be able to optimize for that but it will make you look better and earn you better references.

</comment><comment><USER15> Going by your assumptions, you will be far ahead of the curve. the principles of physics and the mathematics that underpin it are skills you can take anywhere. Computer science students are generally not math illiterate, but a BS in physics will arm you with that ability to out gun any CS student.

I don't know what you want to do in life, but if you know physics, a few languages, and have rock solid higher level math skills then the sky is the limit. David Pines spoke at my sister's graduation and he changed my outlook on life, hence my praise for the field.

I reccomend reading "Forunte's Formula" by poundstone, Complexity The emerging science at the edge of order and chaos by waldrop. My life as a quant by dermann. Oh and And Ploya's "How to solve it". If that doesn't give you an idea of how valuable a legitimate BS in physics is then I'm afraid you cannot be helped.

CS degree or not what matters at the end of the day are your own abilities.

</comment><comment><USER16> I learned to program when I was quite young but was talked into studying physics at university by teachers and parents. I've never used the physics I learned there in my work as a programmer - the maths on the other hand has been very useful. I've never had a shortage of work: on the contrary, I've always had lots of opportunities to choose from. This has of course been conditional on actually being good at programming, and most CS degree programmes don't actually teach you that either. So if you want to be a programmer: practice!

By the way, your time at university and your degree will still be useful: use that time to make friends and work on projects with like-minded people, and generally have some fun. Use the degree to get past CV/resumé filters that screen for having a degree.

</comment><comment><USER17> Having a physics degree has really given me an unfair advantage as a software engineer.

You'll have to do some extra work (hint: if you haven't already, start coding in your spare time now, and endeavor to learn version control and unit testing). But the short answer is: yes, you will be able to compete.

</comment><comment><USER18> This may sound obvious, but it depends on how good you are. I graduated in Physics last summer, and am doing very well in a programming job. However many of my old colleagues, especially those who only learned to program during their degree, would not be a good fit for the job.

Ask yourself if you see programming, say, a web browser or a IMDb-like website an impossible feat. If so you will probably not enjoy it. If you see it as something that is eventually manageable (with a team and learning some new skills) then you will probably do very well.

I think physics provides all the analytical skills, it's just you don't want to have too much catching up to do before you are competative with other graduates.

</comment><comment><USER19> Change majors, do a second major, etc. "Assuming I know the relevant programming languages and have some experience" is a big assumption. Computer Science (or any science major) is very hard to pick up part time. For your first job you will be competing with CS grads. I bet it will be an eye opening experience for you since CS grads do get an unfair advantage in the industry. The chances are you will have to take a much less lucrative position and will be playing catch up for many years. Ask yourself - why go that route?

If you decided to do programming - do programming. Consider yourself lucky to have it figured out while you are still in school.

<comment><USER13> > _"...since CS grads do get an unfair advantage in the industry"_

Really?

Considering that the IT industry is wide open to people _without_ CS degrees, it is exactly the other way around. Engineering, Medical or Law students don't have an "unfair advantage" to their respective profession - they've simply met the minimum requirement. Meanwhile, a CS major has given up several years to _maybe_ have a better shot of getting an interview, never mind a job.

<comment><USER19> I am just telling you the truth.

IT industry != Software Engineering industry. Event IT will favor Business, InfoSys, Accounting grads way above any other science disciplines.

In Software Engineering, fresh CS grads get a pretty unfair advantage. Do a Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon interview and find out.

<comment><USER13> You didn't actually rebut anything I said... and you haven't explained what you mean by "unfair advantage".

And 99.999% of software engineering jobs are not at Google/Facebook/...

<comment><USER19> Unfair advantage means:

1\. Interview questions for fresh grads are very CS oriented. For example, I have seen candidates immediately dismissed for not being able to estimate algorithm complexity. Same for memory requirements. Same for variants of knapsack problem. Same for not being able to get to alternative approaches. Good luck getting those questions right without spending 4 years doing CS.

2\. Internship. CS grads get 2-3 very solid internships on their resume. This comes up during the evaluation as a big factor.

3\. The "he is not a CS major" comment popping up during the reviews unintentionally.

4\. Cultural fit (very true for other industries as well). People hire people like themselves. CS grads have a lot more in common with other CS grads.

Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Amazon/Apple/LinkedIn/etc are at the top of the food chain. If you want to be the best, you have to compete with the best.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I am a Physics (specifically Engineering Physics) major who works with programming, and yes, you will definitely be able to compete.

Having studied math extensively, like function theory and a lot of linear algebra and combinatorics, you will be able to pick up on CS algorithms very fast. You might already have studied some without knowing it.

Physics is a broad subject that permeates the students brain with scientific thinking and teaches you how to understand stuff.

Of the 10-15 companies or so I've spoken to, they would all hire an Engineering Physics student for a CS position, given that they have an interest in programming and can show relevant basic skills in the field.

<comment><USER21> > I am a Physics (specifically Engineering Physics) major who works with > programming, and yes, you will definitely be able to compete.

Hell yes. It will mean that clueless recruitment agencies won't even bother contacting you or doing anything for you, because they don't see you as suitable for anything related to IT. Whether that's a good or bad thing is questionable. It does however mean that getting the foot in the door, i.e. getting into a position that requires a Bachelor in IT is a lot more difficult, in them not wanting to take any risks. The only thing you need to do is prove to them that there is no risk.

Between casual IT work (Sendmail, Exchange, Adobe, Linux/Mac OS, Windows Server and end-user support skills) next to my degree and my Physics degree, I was able to pick up enough skills to get a job. It helped that my Physics degree forced me to learn all of Assembly, C, LabVIEW, LaTeX, Mathematica, MATLAB, Python (Project Euler, actually, is the thing that started forcing me to really know Python) and to a lesser extent Bash and Scheme.

Being able to put ten languages on top of Perl, PHP, JavaScript and others I knew already or know outside of my degree, probably really helped in getting a position programming in a niche language. Given the ten programming languages you're likely to learn in a Physics degree (with a bit of interest) and considering that's likely to be more than you'll get from a Bachelor in IT or maybe even computer science, you're in luck :)

So, in a nutshell, and riffing of another comment here, learn version control and unit testing and know at least one programming language like Python or JavaScript inside out and you're pretty good. Brush up on your design skills and you're done - for now :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Not much: you will need to find a job after you get a degree. Which will most probably not be physics, so you might as well find it more useful to spend your student years on something that will give you more possibilities.

 _"How should we make it attractive for them [young people] to spend 5,6,7 years in our field, be satisfied, learn about excitement, but finally be qualified to find other possibilities?"_ – H. Schopper

But you can also spend your student years working for others to be disposed of by policy and find that your most valuable young years were invested in something you will not be able to benefit from yourself.

</comment><comment><USER23> The short answer is yes.

As several folks have pointed out, the real answer is that it depends more on you (what skills you've cultivated, what projects you've been involved in) than the degree itself. I have met a number of folks with physics degrees who are amazing at CS stuff.

I myself did a BS in math & physics, a PhD in physics, and during all that time did lots of various sorts of computational data and modeling work. I now teach college level computer science.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've been wondering this as well, except my degree is in medical science. I'm graduating in 4 months, but I like programming too much to continue working in a lab. I've been programming since I was 14, but I only feel like I've recently become good at it. Consistently seeing "Required: Computer Science Degree or equivalent" is discouraging. Hopefully these aren't stringent requirements.

</comment><comment><USER25> If you really want to do something then why waste a "few years" doing something else? Honestly it doesn't matter if you're studying physics, programming or trying to invent the next slap chop -- what counts is that you have a passion for what you do and invest the time in that passion. Although be careful that your passion for programming is indeed that and not something else.

<comment><AUTHOR> The "few years" would be spent finishing what I have started, it is a shame that my primary passion may be elsewhere but changing course now would set me back to far.

<comment><USER26> Well, it depends in what ways you're competing against Comp Sci majors, but _even in their own major_ there is a lot of competition from competent physicists -- especially as we try to understand more and more about what quantum computers can and can't do. (Scott Aaronson's page and blog are wonderful to see what theoretical comp sci looks like; <http://www.scottaaronson.com/> ).

If you just want to code, pick up a language, do it in your free time. CS majors will know a couple of more involved things; for example, many of them may have written a functioning, if minimal, compiler. If you want at least some familiarity with this, and if you can stand retro video clips with bad audio quality, you should watch the Abelson-Sussman lectures online: [http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and- comput...](http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer- science/6-001-structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs- spring-2005/video-lectures/)

I mention them in part because I think you might also like the ideas that Sussman brought back to his native engineering discipline; the above lectures are for a course called "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs," but he later put out a book called "The Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics," available here: <http://mitpress.mit.edu/SICM/book-Z-H-4.html#%_toc_start>

The point is that it doesn't have to be two divergent skill-sets. When I was at Cornell, they advertised their applied physics programme with the wonderful statement: "once you know the fundamentals, you're ready for everything." The simple habits you pick up as a physicist, like reasoning about the size of observable quantities or the cultivated habit of "whenever I hear a mathematical term I am going to look it up and read the definition until I understand what the hell they're saying" -- those can really become powerful when you start to write programs. Depending on what you're doing, it's maybe not as helpful as being fluent in the database language SQL, but SQL is much easier to learn and understand sometime later.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I got a degree in Biochemistry. I hadn't taken _any_ programming classes when I graduated. My first biotech job had me learn some LabView and R. Over the next year I took a night class in python, and got my job from that.

So yeah. I highly recommend learning CS while you can! CS is a field where your ability to code is much more important than pieces of paper.

</comment><comment><USER28> The people that should be getting jobs are the ones developing software for four years before they graduate. The degree does not matter, the ability to do the job does. don't skimp on coding ability, as most interviewers can tell if you have been coding for four year or just in a few classes from a short code sample.

</comment><comment><USER29> Study a few books on algorithms before your first interviews so you don't get tripped up on a question about hash tables or red-black trees. I think Physics gives a programmer a unique perspective especially for debugging and optimization - something that is rarely taught.

</comment><comment><USER30> If you become a good programmer then you are good either way, but definitely any company that deals with software that relies heavily on physics (3D Gaming, animation, movie special effects etc..) you will have a competitive advantage with a physics degree.

</comment><comment><USER31> One hint, some analytical models used in physics are very useful in finance. I have a friend doing his physics masters degree in analytical finance. It seems very promising for him.

</comment><comment><USER32> There are will not be a shortage of Computer Science jobs for quite some time, but Computer Science is a lot more than just programming, as far as I understand.

</comment><comment><USER33> i do interviewing/hiring for a successful startup, and, historically, candidates with physics degrees have performed very well.

the one concrete piece of advice i'd have for you is in line with what most of the comments are saying: build stuff in your spare time, make sure the stuff you build is front and center on your resume, and get good at algorithms.

</comment><comment><USER34> are you talking about competing on the job market or in YC application?

If the former, you'll need to show a bunch of examples of your work. So do a lot of projects that you can show(+the source code).

If you are talking about YC...once again skill beats paper. I know Octopart both founders were physicists...which learned to code on their own

</comment><comment><USER35> If you like games, and don't mind generally poor working conditions, you should look at the game industry.

</comment><comment><USER36> Can go into game programming.</comment>