Ask HN: What's stopping HN going the way of Reddit/Digg/Slashdot? - <AUTHOR>

I'm fairly new here (I'm a refugee from Reddit) and occasionally I read comments where someone complains that a post isn't appropriate or that the standard of conversation has gone down recently. And whenever I read those comments I'm troubled by a nagging sense that nobody has a plan. That things will gradually get unbearable and that when they do the people who built up this site will just move on and found a new community and the whole process will start over.
Is there a plan? What's stopping 100,000 Digg users hearing about HN on TV and showing up with posts on Obama's latest news and pictures of their cats?
Clearly there's the code behind the site, the karma system and minimum thresholds for downvoting and so on. I've also seen people linking to the guidelines (http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) occasionally, to try shame people into behaving themselves.
I've got to be honest though, I can't see anything that's fundamentally different about HN that means it will avoid the fate of those other sites. You let me register, what's to stop others? Do you have to "Accept" the guidelines when signing up? I can't remember, even if you do though, let's be honest, nobody's going to read that.
I don't know, do you think HN is structure well enough to prevent it happening? Is there a special plan? Or do people just expect to have to move on when things go down hill? <comment><USER2> I don't think it's as hard to keep a site from sliding as one might think from the examples of previous sites where things went downhill as they got more popular. Slashdot, Digg, and Reddit were all companies. They wanted to grow. Whereas News.YC is a side project. We don't care about growth. It's much easier to do things to keep up the quality when you're willing to sacrifice growth.

<comment><USER3> Is it sufficient to simply not target growth as a goal?

HN, if I'm not mistaken, has kept a general upward trend in number of users; presumably, this is accompanied by an ever-increasing variance in quality of those users and what they consider to be interesting news and good etiquette.

Don't get me wrong; I certainly agree that it is easier to make changes with an eye towards quality when you're not concerned about growth. However, I do wonder if there it a point where the dark side of network effects, which are primarily sociological in nature, will simply overwhelm any technological aspects or other moves on the part of a community's stewards / leaders.

<comment><USER4> > _ever-increasing variance in quality of those users_

I'm not sure it's necessarily the quality of the users. Call me an optimist, but I think most people in general are decent and most people that bother to come here are pretty smart.

I think the problem with size is the same reason everyone else is a crappy driver but you. In a normal day of driving, you are surrounded by mostly good drivers, but a couple of them are bound to make really stupid mistakes (just by random chance). Since this is your only experience with them, you label them a "bad driver" and it overshadows all the good driving around you. If you only drive on lightly traveled roads, you are less likely to see a stupid mistake, but get on a major interstate highway in a major city and there are enough people that something is bound to happen.

Likewise with large social news sites. Every user is a 'good user' 99% of the time, but has that random moment when they do something trollish or get carried away with an argument and say something mean. (I know it has happened to me before.) When a site gets large, the probability of this happening on any given thread rises accordingly, and since everyone focuses on these instances, it seems like every thread is full of trolls and angry people.

I think anonymity also plays into it. Large communities are by default anonymous, and small ones are not. People in small towns don't cut each other off or tailgate each other, because you are likely to know the person in the other car, or at the very least be headed to the same place. (I know, I'm from a small town.) In a major city, you are never going to see that other car again, so no one cares if they act like an asshole.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's my thought on the matter... The "Killer feature" here is the lack of killer features. There are no buddy lists, stupid picture icons, special groups, or karma-whoring incentives. It's just a simple place to exchange news that is generally relevant to a hacker community.

The lack of needless bells and whistles to constantly hold peoples attention will generally make this site un-fun for the unwashed masses of Digg and Reddit refugees.

BTW, welcome to hacker news...

<comment><USER6> What? there's no karma-whoring incentives? Damn! I totally thought I was going to get to change the color of the toolbar...

<comment><USER7> And polls! Why else would I post but to reach the HN Nirvana of being able to post polls?

<comment><USER8> for when that day comes...

<http://news.ycombinator.com/newpoll>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> PG <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=196547> :

"1. The kind of stories that are most popular on reddit and digg (pictures and politics) are banned here.

2\. Because that kind of stuff is banned, the average digg/reddit reader, if he comes across News.YC, finds the content boring and leaves.

3\. The custom of the site is to be civil in comments.

4\. Votes on comments affect karma.

5\. Trolls are fairly rapidly banned. The only reason Giles hasn't already been banned is that I thought perhaps he was joking."

<comment><USER10> I'm hopeful - but there was a time when #3 was true of Reddit, too. Now if your Reddit comment includes the word "fap", you're about guaranteed to be upmodded.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> As a fellow Digg->Reddit->here refugee, I think we're the problem. Judging by the fact that you didn't defect from Reddit sooner, it can be reasoned that you enjoy a dash of offbeat humor, politics, and funny pictures with your programming (and in this case entrepreneurial) articles and news. In other words, you're like me, and the rest of the early majority.

We go from social news site to social news site, dragging down article quality with our penchant for less-than-total fact saturation and off-topic posts.

The only responsible thing is to get your hacker news here, and your funny pictures elsewhere. Refrain from contributing posts or articles and let the people that make this site great continue to make it great.

Wait, crap. Except for this post and that post.

</comment><comment><USER10> The most important thing, besides the general desire to keep the community positive, is this: <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>.

 _On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity._

Reddit, on the other hand, has the following guidelines:

 _Submit a link to anything interesting: news article, blog entry, video, picture..._

The HN community is built around a particular standard. Reddit's official standard is the lowest common denominator. If the lowest common denominator is "Impeach Bush" and "Funny pic [nsfw]", then that's going to dominate.

Unfortunately, I've already seen Hacker News change over the last year (less programming-related content; more general business news). I'd love a gentle nudge back in the hacker direction. But it's still the best social bookmarking site at the moment.

</comment><comment><USER12> The only hope is our elitist comment trolls. Also the fact that HN has far fewer users makes it much easier to deal with the problem. [http://siteanalytics.compete.com/digg.com+reddit.com+news.yc...](http://siteanalytics.compete.com/digg.com+reddit.com+news.ycombinator.com/?metric=uv)

<comment><USER13> I'm mildly pleased that HN shrank, not grew, this month. Not by a lot, but still. Hopefully that won't reverse. If the community doesn't grow, it can't turn into another digg.

<comment><USER14> Note that the statistic isn't for HN only, but also includes the rest of ycombinator.com. I suspect HN didn't shrink; instead YC got press hits in April + May after registrations and kicking off the summer cycle. Also, for that level of traffic, I'd be wary of compete.com stats. More so than usual in any case.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I can't believe nobody has mentioned collaborative filtering.

Simple collective voting and new/hot/controversial are very unsophisticated measures of how much any particular user will like something.

For an example of how powerful collaborative filtering is, check out movielens.org

The key is to take each user's votes and use them to figure out based on other peoples' votes what stories and comments to display. Then the community doesn't really "grow". Sure you may get some niche communities that grow, such as people who all tend to upvote cat pictures, but the "thinking person" doesn't have to worry, b/c as long as there is a weak (or negative) correlation between cat pictures and your upvotes, the system will never recommend any to you.

Imagine rather than one massive community, an infinite number of beautifully overlapping ones. I think the ideal system would consider votes for stories and comments, and show each person mostly content that had a high probability of being enjoyed.

The "new" tab might show things with less of a strict filter to prevent false negatives.

The research group that built Movielens has some papers on the web and the math isn't that tough. With a properly design collaborative filtering system there simply will not be the digg/reddit degradation where the site gets so big and noisy and low quality. Sure there may be stories that are hugely popular, but as long as the algorithm gets enough quality input (votes) on a variety of things, no user would get too many duds.

Ironically Reddit's redesign only increases noise by tending people away from the subreddit niche communities that had existed -- I would more likely click on a weak title if in a quality subreddit than if it's the #4 item on the screen.

At the rate it's going, news.yc will surely become the next reddit, and eventually the next Digg. As others have pointed out, we'll all have probably moved on by then to the next site (or hopefully one that implements CF!).

It seems odd to me that nobody has implemented a site like this with CF... As with most of my posts, if anyone wants to collaborate to do an experimental site like this just let me know. There are some cool ruby libraries out there and of course gsl.

</comment><comment><USER16> Don't make your posts too entertaining. Don't make your posts too short. A community of people who post large chunks of dense text about esoteric subjects will keep the horde out.

</comment><comment><USER17> I read all the answers, and I'm now convinced that there's nothing keeping this site from eventually going down that same path.

Death. Taxes. Gentrification.

<comment><USER18> Yes, the majority of people here just support banning, harsher punishments, and locking out all outsiders. Those are very poor solutions!

#1 and #2 cause strong negative backlash. As you would learn from marketing theory, a user that you have personally screwed with will likely cause 20x more damage to your brand than your best users improve it. #3 Locks out a lot of useful expertise. For sure, HN could use a lot more knowledge about programming. So far, this site has attracted lots of people who want to learn but much less so people who already know a lot and have wide experience. We still very much need to be inviting to the latter.

Another point that very knowledgeable people are very opinionated, stubborn, and generally assholes. Linus Torvalds is the stereotypical example. This is not to excusing the behavior, but the correlation exists and we will all have to try not to get so offended and ban people like immature children.

If you try to hold onto the past forever instead of trying to improve then you will fail.

I hope this was useful.

<comment><USER19> "As you would learn from marketing theory, a user that you have personally screwed with will likely cause 20x more damage to your brand than your best users improve it."

I'd say that a jackass active on the site is more damaging than one banned. If you ban someone, you have only upset one user. If you allow a spammer/troll/flamer/etc to continue unchallenged, you have upset all of them.

The thing with online communities is, this is Web 2.0, your users are your product. The better the users, the better the product. If you have a good community, smart, helpful people will be attracted and will thus improve the community. If you have a bad one, they will be warded off. Scum breeds scum.

Think broken window theory.

<comment><USER18> If that could be achieved then, yes you would be quite correct. However, it is very hard to completely cut people off on the Internet. Furthermore, they can start disparaging you through other mediums (eg blogs) and influence people they still know to be using your site.

<comment><USER19> So? Thats free publicity. If they something bad about you, all they're doing is informing people of your existence. People will judge for themselves whether you are worth using, usually by checking it out themselves. At least, the kind of people you want on HN will.

The problem isn't with them badmouthing you on your site, it with them polluting your product. If the product sucks, people won't use it, no matter how much you suck up to them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I think there are a few things going on here that differentiate it from Digg/Reddit (I'll leave out Slashdot for the moment, because I think they have different concerns).

On Digg and Reddit, there is no "focus". Digg started out as a tech news site and degraded slowly until they opened up the doors to include all news, which brought what you have refered to as posts on Obama's latest news and pictures of their cats.

On reddit, the day I stopped reading was the day I saw a post on the front page encouraging folks to not post political stories on the politics sub-site because they don't get enough attention that way. That would imply that both sites have a problem with "activists".

To me, that sufficiently explains why the front page of HN "works". What I can't figure out is why the comments on this site tend to be so civil. The HN community seems to lack the hostility that plagues virtually every other site of its kind. Is it fewer angry people? Older, or more mature audience? Maybe it's migrants from the three sites you mention who were fed up with the poor behavior exhibited there?

</comment><comment><USER21> The main difference is very simple, yet effective: HN has a specific goal. It is not a place which will just flow with whatever is posted. Some things are allowed, and some things are not.

Hopefully, the choice of content will keep people interested in that kind of content, and remove those that don't. They already got reddit/digg/foobar for their stories.

Comments would take more time to moderate, if we think of users up/downvoting as a differential equation that slowly is moving towards the "intelligence of the masses". So in time, the level of comments will degrade. The way of keeping that from happening is, of course, to mercilessly kill bad comments and keep them out with overpowering ;)

</comment><comment><USER22> PG has said he won't let it, and will do what it takes to keep it high quality.

<comment><USER3> This is a very noble aspiration, but many benevolent stewards of online communities have tried and failed; it is a historically intractable problem.

I think the OP is asking what is the "what it takes"?

<comment><USER23> There is the difference between HN and reddit/digg etc. that pg and co. do HN for love, whereas, whatever other motives they may have, the other sites are trying to make money.

<comment><USER24> Classic counterexample: kuro5hin.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It probably will. I followed a similar path of another person on here: /. -> k5 -> reddit -> HN.

At the end of the day, nothing can stop 50 users up-voting cat pictures except to shut the site down.

<comment><USER6> Except a Bayesian cat-picture filter written in Lisp!

<comment><USER25> lisp? you mean arc good sir. I'm not sure how effective a bayesian filter would be at classifying news stories as interesting/non-interesting though. Has anyone tried this?

<comment><USER26> Yes, it looks like pg built something to recognize good/bad stories:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213951>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> captain-m If growth isn't a concern why not force people to wait a certain amount of time after signing up before they're allowed to post?

That way new users can get a feel for the community before they start posting and you only get users with a real interest in the stories posted here.

</comment><comment><USER27> I think just not compromising is good enough to keep the quality of the site. I don't see HN doing any deals with NY Times or getting a ad deal with Google. They have kept it simple, just pure news and it is surrounded by smart bunch of people who want to keep it that way.

</comment><comment><USER28> the quick and dirty answer is the userbase. it doesn't, at least right now, turn into digg/reddit/slashdot because the people who want to see a digg/reddit/slashdot are already at digg/reddit/slashdot.

the community here likes how things are and has a vested interest in keeping HN like it is. so thats what they do, try and push out the bad where they can and promote the good.

</comment><comment><USER29> I don't think anything... the algorithm that decides what's on the front page is currently just so so, and no one wants to improve it.

</comment><comment><USER30> Limit the number of news submission per user in 24 hours. I suggest max 5 news/24 hours. That way, we can guard HN from spammers.

<comment><USER31> That would be a bad idea since submissions follow a powerlaw , meaning that the majority come from a relatively low number of users that submit a lot. Check <http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=nickb> for an example.

<comment><USER32> Are you saying that those posts wouldn't be made by someone else? I doubt it.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: SSL certificate dashboard - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/JensDebergh/certificate-dashboard <comment><USER2> A better approach is to have an automated alert for certificates that are expiring soon (next X days) then sending out an alert. Or even better, switch to automatically rotating certs on a regular basis via letsencrypt.

Rotating certs is like restoring backups, if you only do it when shit hits the fan (server crashed or cert expired), you're doing it wrong.

<comment><USER3> > Rotating certs is like restoring backups, if you only do it when shit hits > the fan (server crashed or cert expired), you're doing it wrong.

you restore backups even if the server is still ok? why?!

<comment><USER4> How do you know if your backups are good? Better to test a restore when everything is still working fine rather than waiting until you really need it and then finding out that your backups are broken.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> these 2 dashboards have a lot of in common...

[https://github.com/JensDebergh/certificate- dashboard](https://github.com/JensDebergh/certificate-dashboard) [https://github.com/cmrunton/tls-dashboard](https://github.com/cmrunton/tls- dashboard)

<comment><AUTHOR> You are right its the exact same dashboard. I never said it was original. I've used the static version of crumtons project and turned it into a configurable webservice. While doing so I copied and modified code from the original project, wrote some tests and published it as is.

I didn't remember the name of the original author/project, until someone linked me towards the github page. Since then I've added a proper link.

It was never my intend to steal copyrighted material. I just wanted it to be done how I thought it should be done.

<comment><USER6> Hi Jens_. I'm the one who wrote the TLS certificate dashboard that the other posters are referring to here. While I don't mind people forking the dashboard I made and modifying it for their own purposes (that's why I put it up on GH after all), I do mind when proper credit isn't given for the work that I've done. I'm not interested in starting a war of words on the Internet, so all I'll say at this point is that I appreciate that you've updated your readme with a link to my project and added the license to your repo. Have a great day.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I spent a weekend building a certificate dashboard right into Calendar.app. The front-end may not be React and the back-end definitely isn't written in Go, but it works really well. I didn't even need to install Redis or another NoSQL database. The CRUD is outstanding and the search support is great, even if its not based on Solr.

I ported my solution to both Google Calendar and whatever that thing is that would be the Microsoft equivalent. Full mobile support, entirely cross- platform. You can even use it on someone else's computer I mean cloud.

</comment><comment><USER8> This is easy to do with Nagios and the check_http plugin, and Nagios is then your dashboard for not just SSL expiration but every other service you are (or should be) monitoring as well.

<comment><USER9> Simple if you already have Nagios set up and running... far from simple if you haven't.

Though someone here posted a video a couple of years ago where the speaker was imploring "Stop using Nagios [it's terrible]". At the end, someone asked him what they should use instead, to which the speaker didn't have an answer (his tool that he was speaking about was still in development)

Edit: but yes, you're right in that the important thing is that the tool will alert you without you having to remember to check it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Here's a command-line one written in Go: [https://www.opsdash.com/blog/check- ssl-certificate.html](https://www.opsdash.com/blog/check-ssl-certificate.html)

<comment><USER11> If you clone my sysadmin utilities, from here:

[https://github.com/skx/sysadmin-util](https://github.com/skx/sysadmin-util)

You'll find:

         $ ssl-expiry-date bbc.co.uk
         bbc.co.uk
            Expires: Mar 15 17:01:06 2017 GMT
            Days: 289

That uses openssl, bash, and other standard facilities available upon Unix/Linux systems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Very cool! We use Jenkins to check when our SSL certificates are approaching 30 days until expiration. A simple call to openssl(1) works great!

Good stuff!</comment>


160 People: Skype 5 for Mac = Fail. Skype: No Comment - <AUTHOR> http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=756073

<comment><USER2> If companies dropped everything when a handful of people whined about an interface change in an application, website, or anything of the like, there would never be any updates. This isn't a ringing endorsement of Skype 5 for Mac, but companies can't be held hostage by a few people who don't like change.

<comment><USER3> So do you just conflate all criticism into the 'whining' bucket?

A lot of people on that thread were very specific in their feedback. Both pointing out their grouses and what could be done to fix them, so I disagree with your unkind characterization that they were just a 'few people who don't like change'

The least Skype could have done was post a simple

"Thank you for the posts, we are evaluating all your feedback"

Too much to ask?

<comment><USER4> I suspect Kylekramer is reacting to the inflammatory HN headline.

<comment><USER5> ...Which also happens to be the inflammatory thread topic on the Skype forum.

Grandparent: There might be all sorts of good intentions, criticism and suggestions in the thread, but if you start out with "new skype = FAIL", well, you're going to have a hard time framing that as constructive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 160? Every time Facebook changes something they get a million people signing a petition and vowing to quit if Facebook doesn't change it back.

<comment><USER7> I wonder what Valuation Facebook would have it it were Mac only?

I actually agree with your point, but comparing Facebook users (fraction of 500 million) to Skype for Mac users (unknown to me, but I would suggest less) is not a straight comparison.

<comment><USER8> It is also much easier to complain about Facebook in Facebook that to find the right forum in skype.com and post something there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> To be fair, they did address some of these concerns in the latest update of 5. The text is smaller and spacing is much tighter. Definitely an improvement. My biggest concern is that 5 doesn't allow flash apps to access your web cam when it's running.

</comment><comment><USER10> There are a couple comments here saying that software developers shouldn't bend to the will of a vocal minority that doesn't like change. I completely agree.

However, this is not the case here. I use Skype daily for business and I can say that not a single person that I know who upgraded likes the changes. That isn't a few squeaky wheels.

Granted 20 people isn's statisticly significant, but when it is hated by 20 people in a sample size of 20 you have to wonder a bit.

I'm sure a lot of people love it; but I'm not one.

<comment><USER11> I like it. Automatically having a group chat when you make a call with multiple people, and saving group chats in your history are the two things that have kept me using the Skype 5 and not downgrading. And now that the focus problem when app switching bug is fixed I really don't have any major problems with it.

<comment><USER10> So there's one person! ;)

I haven't downgraded either, I keep thinking that I'll get used to it and it will get better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm usually pretty receptive of major UI changes, but I hate Skype's new UI. It's hard to find contacts, it's weird how everything is piled into this giant window, and it took me 5 minutes to find the dial pad.

<comment><USER10> I agree completely. I actually had to re-dial into a conference line the first time I used it because it took me too long to find the dial pad to type in my pin.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Reads exactly how much Facebook wall sounds when Facebook update their UI. The temptation is always to listen to your most vocal unhappy customers while the vast majority carry on happy.

<comment><USER14> Yeah, it's just not a well organized program IMO. It likely needs an expensive UI consultant and an expensive redo of many screens to really handle the 3-4 ways people work with it.

There are the Eurobusiness people who live in it, the Eurobusiness people who live work and play in it, the casual users who use it for the occasional phone call, the teens who use it as a substitute for AIM and everyone else from what I can see. Basically, they're trying to compromise on that, and not doing a great job.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Reminds of digg v4...unfortunately in this case people do pay for Skype's service. I, being one of them. I will not be upgrading my client anytime soon.

<comment><USER16> It still makes calls right? It's not like the software doesn't work; It does and better than most solutions.

I like multi-video-chat so I can bare with the ugly interface.

<comment><USER15> True, but so does my telephone. The reason reddit wins is because the experience is better there. Since this is a B2B (in my case) model I consider this a regression in the solution I'm paying for. Luckily I have the option to not upgrade.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I just installed it and my initial impression is that a lot of work went into this new UI, and it's not bad. I think it could use a few changes, but I'm not complaining. Personally, I don't like how big all of the windows are, the fact that I haven't figured out a way to hide the contact sidebar, and when I open the Contacts Monitor window (command + 3), it uses a large font which can't be resized. To someone who uses Skype frequently, this might be nice. Maybe I'm not the typical use case, I generally use Skype as IM or voice only and not that often, but I like to keep it running all of the time. Now I will, but I'll keep it running hidden or in the dock, not on the screen.

</comment><comment><USER18> So let's just think about this for a moment.

When Facebook introduced the Feed back in 2006, hundreds of thousands of people protest. Hundreds of thousands. They even had a physical protest outside on their lawn. I think many of you will agree, The Feed is Facebook.

Then they made some other tweaks in 2009 with Top News and MILLIONS of people protested in groups.

Need I talk about Apple and floppy drives?

To date, there are 397 people protesting on <http://www.facebook.com/betterSkype5>

You can't please everyone all the time at scale.

<comment><AUTHOR> Facebook is a social network that makes it easy for people to group together and complain about the thing they are using.

For someone to complain about the Skype UI it is much harder, they would actually have to seek out a forum and register with the forum.

So 397 folks actively seeking out and registering + 160 registering to Skype's own forum does say something, no?

I wonder how many people really don't like it, but are living with it because they can't be bothered to seek out and register to complain!

<comment><USER18> The Facebook page has the same viral effect (if you Like it, it will show up to all of your friends). So don't buy that.

Was just skimming back through the forum link again, about 50% of the comments appear to be new forum users. So some validity in that I guess. Although, have you ever registered on a forum to say you like something or is it normally a complaint/wanting to be heard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Skype have completely ignored Linux users for years now. That their attitude toward Mac users is similar doesn't come as a big surprise.

</comment><comment><USER20> I, for one, like the new Skype. I think they did a great job with the redesign. Surely I'm not the only one who thinks this.

<comment><USER21> I do enjoy the new layout. The "iChat/AIM/ICQ" UI paradigm was due to be re- invented eventually. I think the only thing that is really missing is the "full-screen" video. Either that or I just haven't found where they hid the button...

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I don't personally know anyone who dislikes Skype 5 for Mac. I love it. There are complainers in this world, but indeed as most have described this is a drop in the ocean of Mac Skype users. I can count at least 4 people who love it, and no one has told me they dislike it.

</comment><comment><USER23> Link is to a complaint thread starting early last November about the now-ended Beta.

The most recent posts appear to be me-toos along the lines of "What was wrong with the simple 2.8 Skype UI - NOTHING ! it was just too old and needed some new futures[sic]."

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Out of curiosity have you used Skype version 5 on a Mac? What do you think of it?

<comment><USER8> I hate it. In a decreasing level of importance:

\- I hate that they removed the contact list. There is an online contacts window, but it stays always on top and can't view/change your status from there.

\- You can't pop a video call window out. This is insane, you can't video chat with someone and text chat with some one else at the same time. Screen sharing is almost unusable. This is actually reduced functionality compared to 2.x.

\- There is empty space everywhere.

\- It feels like they are pushing you to buy stuff everywhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Adium betas? Probably. Skype betas? No, don't think so.

I've heard only deep regret from friends who tried the new Skype for Mac.

<comment><USER10> Same here, I've heard (almost) entirely criticism. Plus, I am a paid Skype customer. It is a little different when you're using a free app like Adium or a free website like Facebook or Digg.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> It works fine for me.

</comment><comment><USER26> doesn't skype have like 10 million users online at any given time? 160 upset people is like dropping salt into the ocean.

<comment><USER27> Well, there's only like 300 Mac users ;-) That's more than half!

All joking aside, a lot of Mac users are just sticking to the older 2.x series for their Skype client rather than upgrading, so if a 160 people decided it was worth their time to complain on the Skype forums there are probably many more!

<comment><USER26> true, good point. I upgraded to the beta when it came out a while back on my 13" air and I'm perfectly fine with the sizing. The new update made things even smaller/better. I run my Skype on a different Spaces section though so screen real estate isn't an issue for me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Ignoring people is the new black: Skype is pulling a Mubarak.

<http://twitter.com/BigThingist/statuses/35031167392686080></comment>


I lived on Bitcoin for 24 hours - <AUTHOR> http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2014/11/09/24-hours-on-bitcoin.cnnmoney/index.html?sr=hnmoney111014bitcoin1030video

<comment><USER2> Is there a text version of this?</comment>


Think Drupal was FLOSS and non-profit? Think again. - <AUTHOR> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2009/Sep/0003.html <comment><USER3> Here's the policy with non-screwed-up formatting: <http://drupal.com/trademark> . Here's the bit that made me go WTF:

        Examples of "fostering the Drupal software":

        - a course entitled "How to use Drupal in your business"
          organized by a local non-profit organization;
        - an open access monthly journal called "Drupal Coding magazine";
        - an open source Apache plugin "JIT Compiler for Drupal"...

        Examples which do not qualify as "fostering the Drupal software":

        - creating a Drupal fork "ImprovedDrupal";
        - publishing a website "drupalhallofshame.com" with
          pictures of infamous Drupal contributors.

Here's another fun quote:

        "Exclusively" means that any direct profits generated
        by using the Drupal trademark, must also be exclusively
        used to foster the Drupal software.

And this part is just hilariously delusional:

        The use of the Drupal trademark as part of the name of
        a function, procedure, variable name or similar source
        code component is also considered "nominative fair use"
        for which no license is required.

        Examples:

        - a procedure called drupal_add_link();
        - a constant called DRUPAL_AUTHENTICATED_RID;
        - a variable named $drupal_tag;
        - a set of source code files called drupal.module and drupal.js.

<comment><AUTHOR> Here is my response to this nonsense:

<http://freedrupal5hosting.com/content/welcome>

That's 1500 drupal sites less as of the 1st of Jan. 2010.

I don't really want to inconvenience the people that have built their site using our service but as of yesterday no more new signups and end of the year it's curtains.

There is no way in hell that we can even begin to comply with this trademark policy without destroying what we've built up to date, so we might as well close shop.

For me the sticking point is not so much that these restrictions exist but the fact that they are enacted retro-actively.

We've done our bit to promote drupal, helped solve some issues, spent time and money on developing a hosting solution around drupal that is 100% automated but I'm more than willing to toss in the towel at this point.

<comment><USER4> _There is no way in hell that we can even begin to comply with this trademark policy without destroying what we've built up to date._

Let's clarify. Have you been in communication with the trademark holder? Have you asked the trademark holder for permission to use the trademark, and been turned down? What exactly has the trademark holder asked you to do that would "destroy what you have built up to date"?

It seems to me that the policy gives you a long list of cases for which you don't have to ask. And, in the remaining cases, all it says is that... you have to ask. So, have you asked?

Moreover, from a quick glance at your site it is not obvious to me that you are violating the policy even now. And, if you are, perhaps it can be fixed with a very slight branding change: Invent a company name ("JacquesCorp"), change the domain to "freedrupal5hostingbyjacquescorp.com", and suddenly you get an automatic license under Section A.2:

 _A. You receive an automatic license when:

The Drupal trademark is used in a domain name, title of website, title of a seminar, title of a course or title of a software package that... also mentions your trademark (or your trade name, name of your company, name of your organization, or name of your association)._

[DISCLAIMER: I'm an employee of a company, Acquia, founded by Drupal's founder, Dries Buytaert. However, I do not speak for the company or the Drupal Association, and my half-baked opinions are entirely my own.]

<comment><AUTHOR> No, I did not ask, I can read.

I have simply read the requirements and have decided that we can not comply in any way and that there are terms in there that would make me stop using drupal anyway (or wish that I had never started using it). The word 'boycott' is probably applicable here.

You've managed to turn a supporter first into a cautious user because of technical issues with your offerings and now into a detractor because of your ridiculous trademark policy. Think of it as the beam (not straw) that broke the camels back.

When we started this section of our business this licensing policy did not even exist, we announced our existence on 'drupal.org' and received the impression that such use of the name drupal the way we do it is ok.

If there would be any automatic grandfathering for sites that existed prior to this nonsensical trademark policy being dreamed up that would change the situation a little bit, but it would not change my opinion much because of the overall absolutely ridiculous statements made in the policy the way it is worded right now.

Even if I could resolve the issue by changing our domain name, the name of the service or anything like that I would point blank refuse to do so because I think the policy as displayed is comparable to the use of submarine patents.

There are plenty of people that have created a living around the drupal eco system, they already contribute in many ways by raising awareness, providing hosting, writing software etc.

That should be enough payment for the use of the trademark in my opinion, no need to get your hands in everybody's pockets.

It's a total loss strategy.

Imagine Linus Torvalds, the holder of the Linux trademark creating a policy comparable with this one.

The world of free and open source software has just gotten poorer.

<comment><USER3> I'm currently doing research on the text. Here's the Linux policy: <http://www.linuxmark.org/faq.php> . It's quite a bit more permissive: it would have allowed your site to exist without applying for a license. On the other hand, if you'd started _advertising_ your project under the _trademark_ "Free Linux Hosting", you'd have to apply for a Linux license.

<comment><AUTHOR> I wonder how that license dealt with use of the term prior to the existence of the license.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Drupal has become a known brand over the years, seems no more than prudent to protect it. The software is GPL, so your rights are safe. You can take the code and fork the hell out of it. You just can't call it "Steve0's Improved Drupal".

I don't get it, people are given code for free, to use modify and learn from. Still they complain that not everyone can use the 'brandname' for whatever use they see fit.

<comment><USER6> It's fine to protect the Drupal trademark, but it should be done for the right reasons, and in the right way. Linux gets it right:

<http://www.linuxmark.org/faq.php>

<comment><USER7> Linux is actually much more aggressive about protecting its trademark. Random example: [http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/15/2149225...](http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/15/2149225&tid=163)

"Australian companies providing Linux products and services may soon have to pay up to $A5000 a year to licence the operating system name (warning: Registration Required), if the patents agency IP Australia grants a trademark application it is reviewing. About 90 companies with products, services or websites containing the word "Linux" recently received letters of demand from Perth lawyer Jeremy Malcolm. Acting for user group Linux Australia Inc, he asks recipients to sign statements saying their use of the word is subject to the group's licence agreement, which has fees of $A200 to $A5000 under a successful trademark application."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Unfortunately, this post is written like a troll:

"All I need is this euro putz ..."

"For your convenience of course, it's governed by the laws and regulations of Belgium."

<comment><USER9> As they say back home "I'm just gobsmacked". This is absolutely the most offensive piece of misinformed trash I've ever encountered on HN. Nothing more than a nasty personal attack on Dries. Whether or not you like Drupal is beside the point. Dries is one of those thoughtful, modest and intelligent contributors to the open source community. The trademark policy in question was carefully vetted with the community and with legal experts. This vile little attack is quite uncalled for. Excuse me while I go wash my hands. I feel unclean.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Er... It is FLOSS. The name isn't. You don't have to use it, you don't have to call it by name. You can call it 'Dave' and it's no different.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right. What if your project has been in existence for over a year and a half and you get this slightly game changing policy dumped on you ?

<comment><USER7> Apply for a license. As said, the goal of the policy is to create a fair-level playing ground for all people and organizations that are part of the Drupal community. If your use of the Drupal name is fair for others, if it does not suggest an official link with the Drupal project, and if you adhere to the Rules of Use, there shouldn't be a problem. In fact, the trademark policy helps protect your investment in Drupal because it avoids that others can use the name in ways that are unfair to you or your Drupal business.

The lack of a Drupal trademark policy doesn't mean the trademark was unprotected -- it was protected by trademark law. By creating a trademark policy and a licensing procedure, we've provided us options we did not have before. Things have become more permissive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've seen this contribute to severely damaging a GPL'd web application community in a slightly different sphere. They sent threatening letters to anyone hosting, supporting, reselling etc. the software claiming you couldn't use their name. They sold licences to allow you to do so.

I'm fairly certain it wasn't even legal since the whole point of trademarks is to prevent confusion. Claiming to repair Volkswagens doesn't mean you're claiming to be Volkswagen.

I can't tell if this is making exactly the same mistake, certainly the examples given elsewhere in this thread by _cousin_it_ seem to be conspicuously missing any activity that makes money, even a training course, using the name Drupal. I see an update to that post which includes language suggesting you can make money from Drupal, but unless you then invest all that money back into Drupal, you can't use the name. Very short sighted.

<comment><USER7> Please read the policy more carefully because your comment incorrect. If you make money with Drupal, you can still use the name 'Drupal'. It just means that you might not qualify for the automatic license grant procedure, and that you need to apply for a license so we can provide guidance as what is considered to be fair use of the Drupal name.

<comment><USER11> I mispoke when I said "can't use the name". I meant to say "Drupal _claim_ that you can't use the name without applying for a revocable licence and paying a fee".

This still isn't ideal if it is being implied that the licence and fee is necessary when (in many cases) legally it isn't required. I believe under UK law falsely accusing people of trademark infringement can open you up to lawsuits in return.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Sounds like Firefox/Iceweasel -debate all over again. It's still FLOSS, even if you don't have free rights to the brands which the software is distributed under.

Just to repeat: trademarks do _not_ conflict with software freedom.

</comment><comment><USER7> This sounds like some good old FUD. Unfortunately, attacking me, or my family, doesn't make for a constructive argument. Last time I checked, my personal blog was ... my personal blog. I'm not asking you to be a reader of my blog.

Anyway, I've owned the Drupal trademark for a long time. The lack of a Drupal trademark policy doesn't mean the trademark was unprotected -- it was protected by trademark law. The lack of a Drupal trademark policy meant that it was unclear what was allowed and what wasn't allowed, and frankly, that you were bound by trademark law. By creating a trademark policy and a licensing procedure, we've provided us options we did not have before. Things have become more permissive.

The goal of our new policy is to provide guidance and clarity on how the Drupal trademark is allowed to be used. The goal of the policy is to create a fair-level playing ground for all people and organizations that are part of the Drupal community.

The entire process of developing the policy was a community effort, with help from a variety of legal experts. We worked on the policy over the course of almost two years. A draft version of the policy was posted at <http://groups.drupal.org/node/19068>, and through the community feedback that developed there, we ironed out many of the wrinkles of my original draft. Larry Garfield, the Drupal Association's current legal representative has provided feedback, and both my own attorney (DLA Piper) and additional attorneys from the Software Freedom Law Center and the Drupal Association were part of the policy's development. To help validate our work, we reviewed other similar policies from sister projects to make sure that we were in-line with the current legal trends in open-source development.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Dries,

The poster of the article here.

You probably don't remember me but a while ago there was an extortion attempt by the holder of drupal.se, I offered to buy the domain and donate it to you.

So much for my stance on whether I think you are the 'rightful owner' of drupal.org and/or the drupal trademark.

I agree with you on the slurs in the article posted, but that should probably be taken in light of the heat of the moment.

That said, I think the policy that you have put in place is - for want of better terms - less than elegant.

It presumes a say in the income streams of companies clustered around the drupal brand, it presumes that it is ok to dump this on us one fine morning in August, without consultation or consideration.

It's a bit like the mob movies, one day some guy walks in to your shop and explains that you have a new partner.

He'll tell you how to allocate your funds and what your profit margin can be. In return for not having something bad happen to your company. And all that because you share your Italian ancestry in your name.

Sure, you started drupal. And sure, you are by far the single largest contributor to its success. But overall the other people that have been contributing to drupal hold a much larger share in the total than you.

First thing I knew about this whole thing was when I read about it on the link posted here.

I read the trademark policy (blue on a bluegray background, you owe me a new pair of eyes) in its entirety and my conclusion was very simple: You've lost it.

I don't care which big name companies and advisors have had a hand in crafting this, I refuse to accept these terms.

There was - as far as I know - never a single mailing to the drupal community in its entirety about this policy, which would have been an excellent way of telling people that something important that might affect them is happening. That would have gone a long long way towards getting people involved.

By foregoing that opportunity you will now have to live with having that discussion 'after the fact'. And a lot more public. And with people that are upset.

In the link you present above less than 20 people are involved out of a community that numbers probably in the 10's of thousands. That alone should make you wonder if you had a broad enough exposure for the process. Shades of the hitchhikers guide planning council there.

A one-sided automatic license may be possible according to the laws in Belgium, I'm no expert on Belgian law. But I do know that usually it is not sufficient to post a license agreement somewhere on a website and to expect parties to be bound by it. Especially parties that have been active for a long long time using the word 'drupal' in their domain name. Even if they did not have an agreement in place before.

After all, if according to you a thread on drupal.org is sufficient notice then by extension you should have known about our existence.

So, now we are at a stalemate. I refuse to accept your terms to licensing the use of the word drupal under your current proposal.

And you think that I should get a license.

I don't think it should be your right to muzzle critics about drupal by saying which domain names they can register and which they can not. And I'm not even a critic of drupal, just of this policy.

Criticism is good for you.

As long as such a domain is used to vent criticism of the product and not in any way used to extort then that party is in the clear.

I don't think it should be your right to - after years of being aware that companies are creating entities affiliated with the drupal name - <USER2> start telling those people how they can or can not run their businesses.

Under those conditions I wish you best of luck with your CMS, and I hope that in time you will come to the conclusion that this policy the way it is worded right now is over the top. And that you will amend it, or at least strip out the more obvious over the top bits.

I'm not sure who advised you on that part, but you could have a look at the lockheedsucks.com case. It is enlightening.

I guarantee you that drupalsucks.com is not going to be used to either extort you and / or your company.

best regards,

        Jacques Mattheij

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is way stupider than cases like CentOS vs. Prominent North American Linux Vendor

Here what will happen is that end-users will just have no idea that their whitebox hosted site runs on Drupal internally. Yes, you enjoin asshats from promoting themselves as you, but it's still a net negative.

</comment><comment><USER14> Get over yourself. Dries invented drupal, Dries named Drupal, Dries owns the trademark for Drupal and always has. Dries is also free to do with his trademark whatever he wishes.

If you chose to create a project/business named after someone else's trademark that's on you and your extremely poor judgment.

The personal attack against him and his FAMILY is more than "poor packaging"-- it's deplorable. Being 'upset' is not an excuse for insulting someone or their FAMILY. WTF is going on with this world that this is even remotely considered acceptable?

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm not seeing the problem here. There seems to be all sorts of allowed uses and as far as I can tell, the only restriction is that you can't claim to be Drupal, just have to identify yourself as a supplier of Drupal.

Please enlighten me.

<comment><USER3> As far as I can see, registering the domain drupalsucks.com isn't "claiming to be Drupal", yet it's prohibited by the policy.

<comment><USER15> (I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, blah blah blah.)

Absent any agreement with X, is "Xsucks.com" a trademark violation? I don't know.

If it isn't, then no worries. If its not a trademark violation then X have no hold over you.

If it is, then what is the complaint against X? That they they are not helping people attack them by witholding permission to use thier trademark?

Say I owned the trademark "billpg" and someone was asking my permission to register "billpgIsAPatheticVirgin.com". Is it morally wrong of me to tell that person to go do something unpleasant?

<comment><USER4> _Absent any agreement with X, is "Xsucks.com" a trademark violation? I don't know._

I'm not sure anybody knows, and I'm particularly unsure that anybody can know in advance. That's why this particular legal agreement doesn't concede the point up front.

The question of whether "billpgIsAPatheticVirgin.com" infringes on the "billpg" trademark involves questions like: Are customers being confused? These are not questions that you can answer in the abstract. If I merely register the domain but it doesn't get indexed by Google and I never show it to anyone, the answer is probably "no". If I put up a site at the domain that looks exactly like the official "billpg" site and then drive traffic to it, the answer moves towards "yes". If I deploy enough SEO tricks to drive billpgIsAPatheticVirgin.com to the top of a Google search page for "billpg", the answer is even more likely to be "yes".

It's got to be hashed out in court, if it comes to that.

<comment><USER3> We (me and jacquesm) just made this: <http://drupaltrademarkpolicysucks.com/> . Let's see how things develop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The preamble says that this policy was created in response to "the questions received by Dries Buytaert from various persons and companies". That in itself makes it sound like most people have been playing nice and have asked for clarification before launching a product that might infringe on the Drupal trademark.

Have there been any specific cases of an individual or company willfully infringing on the trademark?

</comment><comment><USER6> I can't see this policy helping Drupal at all. If Dries is actually planning to enforce this, I suspect there will be a lot of fallout in the community.

</comment><comment><USER17> I've been involved with the Drupal community for the past few years, and I just don't see the problem here. Were this to do with a restriction on using the software, that would be one thing, but the vast majority of Drupal users will not be affected by this.

It _does_ sound like an attempt to keep away negative press on Drupal (note the negative domain names that are proposed as examples in violation) which doesn't do much for my confidence, but the project continues to make significant strides as they work towards the 7.0 release.

I can't help but to think that this has some strange relationship with Acquia, Dries Buytaert's year-old business centered on the software.

</comment><comment><USER18> This is nothing new. WordPress is trademarked too, Matt is just more laid back about it, up to a point:

<http://wordpress.org/about/domains/>

[http://andywibbels.com/2006/10/wordpress-is-a-registered- tra...](http://andywibbels.com/2006/10/wordpress-is-a-registered-trademark-by- automattic-inc/)</comment>


I had Covid-19, and these are the things nobody tells you - <AUTHOR> https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-08-12/column-bill-plaschke-covid-19-experience <comment><USER2> The context about the anger and powerlessness.. I haven't heard too many people mention that.

I got the bug in March and my GP (who is amazing) told me to talk to the health department and the health department told me to talk to my GP or go to the ER. I was in the middle of moving out of my house when it hit. My girlfriend was gone (she had just taken an internship) and I was alone. I was furious about my lack of options and just the bullshit from everyone being overloaded, the stress of work (I work from home) and still wanting to pack boxes to finish my move. The last 4 days of fever were the worst. I remember my last night of fever acutely. Sitting alone in my bed with a throat that felt like a sun bleached mummy of a garden hose full of glitter, hallucinating, and stupefied (the coronavirus brain fog is one of the most interesting symptoms IMO). I sent my doctor's office a message on the medical portal and said "Fuck you and fuck the fucking health department, if I die alone today I want you to know you might have been able to help." My fever broke a few hours later and I was largely functional by the next day.

I've seen my doc since, we are fine and haven't talked about my message. I'm dealing with inflammation that looks like pericarditis by a lot of blood markers but is almost invisible to anything else that would confirm it. I had a heart attack a month ago. I'm 37 and relatively fit for a console jockey. That feeling of powerlessness and isolation. The worry of giving it to anyone else even if I did ask for help... On top of that the disbelief that I was going through it and the still persistent disbelief that I get from other people if I do talk about it. I won't forget it any time soon. Especially because ever since it feels like I've got a dinner plate glued inside my chest that no one can find.

Wear a mask. We are in this for a long haul. Well, I might not be.

<comment><USER3> Wow a heart attack at 37?! How did the coronavirus contribute to it? Never heard a link between the two. Glad you are stable now, any idea how the heck you got it? I'm beyond paranoid of contracting it...

<comment><USER4> Many severe viral infections can increase the risk of heart attack.

[https://www.stjohnleavenworth.com/Services/Heart-and- Vascula...](https://www.stjohnleavenworth.com/Services/Heart-and- Vascular/Heart-and-Vascular-Flu-Impact-on-Heart.aspx)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For context, Plaschke is the senior sports writer for the Los Angeles Times. I have been reading his columns (mainly Dodgers coverage) off and on for at least 20 years. So my subjective experience was that this definitely felt like someone I "knew" as opposed to a random journalist. Also this is the only time I recall him writing about a topic other than sports

This part hit me especially hard as it describes one of my fears:

"I wore a mask everywhere. I followed all the rules, but a couple of weeks ago I didn't follow my instincts. I briefly let my guard down. The coronavirus came out swinging."

<comment><USER6> I believe he may feel it was this slip up, but I highly doubt it. Look at The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden or Norway where practically nobody is using masks. If masks made that much of a difference, we would surely be able to tell.

<comment><USER7> > Look at The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden or Norway where practically nobody > is using masks.

I'm not sure you have a good grasp on what you're talking about. Sweden has one of the highest death rates per capita in Europe,and the absolute worse in nordic countries.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world- europe-53498133](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53498133)

The strategy followed by the Netherlands is to quarantine everyone who does a covid19 test, and get anyone feeling any symptoms to get immediately tested.

[https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus- covid-19/tackli...](https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus- covid-19/tackling-new-coronavirus-in-the-netherlands/basic-rules-for-everyone)

More importantly, the strategy followed in the countries you've mentioned was to intentionally let the disease spread in a way that didn't overwhelmed health services. While the rest of Europe is intentionally trying to completely contain the disease, the strategy followed by Sweden consists of letting it spread freely as long as they can claim their health services aren't overtaxed.

In my opinion that approach is idiotic because currently the best thing health services can do to a critical covid19 case is linger around while watching the patient die, thus what's the point of bothering about if a health service has enough beds to fill?

<comment><USER6> As mentioned below one must look at deaths per million to get any meaningful insight from the data per country. I probably should have left Sweden out to prevent you from jumping on that specific case. Anyway, the measures about quarantine you point out or only just in effect and have no bearing on the spread and then decline, without masks as seen from February/March. Looking at how masks are being used (reused, touched) one could argue they do more harm than good. As was the original story from experts.

<comment><USER8> > Looking at how masks are being used (reused, touched) one could argue they > do more harm than good

One could argue that, but one would look like a moron without any proof, and with a lot of evidence showing the exact opposite.

Given the huge amount of evidence of transmission by cough droplets and the lack of evidence of even a single transmission out of millions by touching masks/surfaces, keeping droplets out of your mouth and nose is the only thing that helps and it definitely does more good than harm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Reading this brought back memories. I caught it back in March here in WA state. I'm not sure when I got it. But I'm pretty sure it was the week before the lockdown (March 23rd). I was already self-isolating, but I just got careless one day. I went grocery shopping, wore a mask, brought my groceries home, put them away, and then ate something and scratched my nose. It was right then that I realized I hadn't washed my hands after I got home and put away the groceries. About 3 or 4 days later, it kicked in.

My doctor was basically the same as the one in the article - couldn't do anything for me. Kept telling me my case is considered minor because I can still breath and my temperature wasn't spiking. I never hallucinated though. Feel like I missed out on that :)

My fever hit 103 and stayed there for over a week. A couple of days it hit 104. I told myself if it went higher I'd figure out how to get to the hospital. Luckily it didn't go up. I was able to just stay home.

The chills were terrible. I was so cold and shivering so much that I couldn't sleep. Eventually exhaustion caught up with me and I just passed out. I have no idea how I kept my dog fed and a minimum of accidents in the house. I really don't remember anything from those 2 weeks. It's just a haze.

But the one thing I do remember is the cough. I've had the flu, bronchitis, walking pneumonia, and even real, ICU pneumonia (to be fair over 2 decades ago so I don't recall how bad it was), and the COVID cough was so much worse. I would curl up in the fetal position because I had coughed so much that I couldn't straighten up. I walked hunched over because my abs hurt so bad. There were several times I'd start crying because I felt a coughing fit about to start. I don't know if cough medicine helped at all, but I was drinking it every time I was lucid enough to remember to. I ran out one day and started panicking. I got really lucky and found a couple of bottles at a local Bartells. But I couldn't go get it. I have great neighbors though. And one of them went and picked it up for me. They put themselves at risk to help me. They dropped it off at the end of my driveway and didn't come within 40 feet of my front door. I waited till they were back in the house before I went and picked it up.

So yeah. It's a "fever and a cough". I really hope that none of you ever have to experience that "fever and a cough"

Edit: Some bio facts about me. I was 43 when I caught it. At the time I was training with power lifting, CrossFit, and a lot of rucking. If I really pushed myself, I could hit a 7 minute mile (not competitively fast, but fast for me). I would call myself healthy at the time I contracted it. No underlying health conditions (beyond bad eyesight and partial deafness).

<comment><USER10> I'm pretty sure I caught it 2 weeks before Christmas 2019. I don't get sick often, I'm healthy with no underlying conditions, and when I've caught the flu in the past I've always bounced back fast.

Not this time. In addition to the other awful symptoms you mention, I agree that the worst thing is the cough. It would seemingly just not go away. Painful, congestive coughing fits for 2 weeks. I basically couldn't do anything during that time except stay in bed and tough it out. Fortunately, I'd already been WFH for a few years and didn't feel well enough to leave the house during that time, so I was self-isolating without realising what was going on.

<comment><USER11> Where do you live, and have you had an antibody test? I've heard so many people who've said they had it back in December, but I'm really doubtful. All the ones I've known who've had an antibody test have come back negative.

I had a flu back in October that matched the COVID symptoms almost exactly, but obviously wasn't it. It was still probably the most sick I've ever been, though.

I think there's going to be very few people in most countries who actually had it pre February / March.

<comment><USER10> I'm in the Philippines. I haven't had an antibody test, and I haven't been sick since then.

To clarify, I have no real evidence that I had COVID-19. It could have just been a bad case of the flu.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Guesstimating the infection cause to a maskless moment ("Nobody is required to wear masks at the tables, so I removed my mask when I sat") sounds iffy, the protection afforded by masks is very light? (Unless he was always using N95 masks)

<comment><USER13> Yes, the masks are used mainly to reduce your spreading to others. Not so much to protect yourself.

<comment><USER14> Although many masks have a one-way valve or vent which allows exhaled air to bypass the filter and infect others.

<comment><USER15> N95 masks in particular.

<comment><USER16> But someone who regularly wears an N95 mask with a valve might be less likely to contract the virus (because N95), so discouraging use of N95 masks with valves could make the situation worse.

<comment><USER15> N95s are good for protecting the wearer, not so good for protecting others from the wearer. In areas with high infection rates (a lot of the US), the likelihood that someone wearing a mask is infected goes up, thereby making N95s more problematic. Many stores around where I live are requiring N95 wearers to cover up the valves while inside. N95s are better than no mask at all of course, but that's a low bar for comparison.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I am not a person who underestimates Covid-19 and take all the precautions that are required.

But to be honest, I had a flu with similar symptoms 2 years ago and I pretty much thought I was dying. I am generally healthy, in my early 30s. Terrible, terrible muscle pain, fever, cough, general nausea all the time. I basically could not operate normally for 2 weeks, after those 2 weeks I was maybe functioning at 50% of my normal energy. Actually, many of my co-workers would get that flu too and my boss, a real workaholic that would work no matter what, even he had to take few days off because he couldn't even think straight.

So yes, Covid-19 sounds kind of like that bad flu. It is bad, but 2 years ago we would just call it "a bad flu". So I wonder if a lot of the fear of Covid is based more on propaganda and social panic than on actual health risks. The only explanation I see why politicians are so eager to overreact is because most of them are of certain age and belong to the high risk group.

Edit: I understand that most of the concerns about the virus might come from the fast spread and impact on hospitals. Thanks for the comments who clarified this.

<comment> Jean-Philipe These two statements don't really go well together, do they?

> I am not a person who underestimates Covid-19 and take all the precautions > that are required.

> So I wonder if a lot of the fear of Covid is based more on propaganda and > social panic than on actual health risks.

You can inform yourself here about the differences to a normal flu: [https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs- covid19.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm)

I don't like how people point out anecdotal evidence in this thread as if it meant something.

<comment><USER18> Your CDC link is not that different than the OP's statement _" So yes, Covid-19 sounds kind of like that bad flu. It is bad, but 2 years ago we would just call it "a bad flu"."_

From your link:

\- People at risk: Both COVID-19 and flu illness can result in severe illness and complications. 1) The risk of complications for healthy children is higher for flu compared to COVID-19. 2) However, infants and children with underlying medical conditions are at increased risk for both flu and COVID-19.

\- Complications: 1) Both COVID-19 and flu can result in complications, including... 2) Additional complications associated with COVID-19 can include: Blood clots in the veins and arteries of the lungs, heart, legs or brain. Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome in Children (MIS-C)

Is Covid worse? Yes, but there are a lot of similarities between the two and for healthy young children, the flu is a bigger risk, but for children with underlying medical condition, Covid is a bigger risk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is utterly terrifying, I barely go out but to know someone following all the precautions could still get it freaks me out so much. Every allergy attack I've gotten throughout the summer has plunged me into fear I've got it, or every slight cough.

Honestly I was starting to think the dread of the virus was worse than the virus itself, but the more articles like this I see the more I realize it isn't.

Has anyone here had it? Especially as a younger person I read the advice saying things like "the risk is low" but I'm terrified of having to face this.

<comment><USER20> > _This is utterly terrifying, I barely go out but to know someone following > all the precautions could still get it freaks me out so much._

In the end, almost everyone is gonna get it anyway for it to stop spreading, precautions or not. Lockdown/masks/etc are more about flattening the curve (spreading the infections) than about people not getting it ever.

And a vaccine could be perpetually "one year in the future" \- for many coronaviruses we still don't have one after decades, so all those announcements that we're "18 months from one" are mostly media BS and labs competing for funding.

<comment><USER21> > And a vaccine could be perpetually "one year in the future" \- for many > coronaviruses we still don't have one after decades, so all those > announcements that we're "18 months from one" are mostly media BS and labs > competing for funding.

This is not entirely true. There was no economic incentive for the previous ones but this one is different. We are able to successfully develop vaccines for Coronavirus related diseases in animals. The main problem is upper respiratory tract is a hard area for the immune system to protect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I feel so sorry for the sensible Americans who are trapped in America with all these idiots who want to argue about masks and downplay a disease that has already killed 175k of their compatriots in only 5 months.

Think about everything that came about because of 911 and that killed less than 3k.

Hopefully I'm just seeing an overrepresentation of the dumb ones in comments and in the media, and it's not so prevalent.

<comment><USER23> Social media gives idiots an outsized voice due to their abundance of free time. This is exacerbating in the summer, and also in a pandemic. It's further exacerbated by political opportunists trying to influence the upcoming election.

We really need to construct better social media platforms. Ones that reward nuance, constructive discourse, experience, etc...

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I try to avoid anecdotal accounts because they give a pretty limited picture of the range of experiences.

<comment><USER24> You can go to /r/covid19positive and read experiences of 100s of People. If all of their experiences Combined are still anecdotal to you, may be consider 170,000 people have died and 5 million people are infected in US alone.

<comment><USER11> 5 million confirmed cases, not current, most of which are recovered by this point. Likely a much larger number total, though. I don't think we have the data about the severity of each of those cases to really know much.

It's deadly in some situations (enough to make this a very serious disease), serious in others, and mild in many more. As for the exact numbers, who knows?

There's absolutely a selection bias in places like that subreddit though, as the people most likely to be there are those with serious cases.

<comment><USER25> 5 Million cases for a something we are trying to get rid of. Something which has now killed 3times more people than the flu.

Something which should have 'gone away' in summer.

Isn't the issue not what numbers we currently have (which is bad) but numbers which we would have if we would NOT do what we do?

We could have had New York, Italy or Spain globally everywhere...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> It seems he was inside in that diner; as far as I read the latest, that is a risk factor, so it might not be his friends (only) that gave him a critical dose. If you have to do something, do it outside, preferably with a good breeze and keep distance. Diners are almost impossible to social distance when you sit inside and most places are hard to ventilate. Also wearing a mask protect others, not yourself (he seems to say he thinks the latter).

<comment><USER27> > patio tables

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> it all started with my knees feeling suddenly sore for no reason. A few hours later I started to cough and develop a fever and my whole body hurt. By the next day I was in agony and my head was so hot it felt like it was going to pop like a zit. I lost my sense of smell / taste, which added to the difficulties of eating because I couldn't sit up or stop coughing. After 2 weeks I was down 40 lbs and had pneumonia in both lungs. Recovery started after about a month and a half and was difficult. Walking more than 20 feet was hard, but eventually I made a full recovery.

This was in 2012, and was not Covid-19. There will people who get it easy and get it hard. That happens with all diseases, and covid-19 is no different. I'm not saying it's not dangerous, especially if you are older, but acting like its some sage advice to watch out because this one person got it bad, when we do know that the majority of people dont. especially if young. I think this doom and gloom does more harm than good and prevents us from taking steps to handle the virus appropriately.

<comment><USER29> I assume it was the flu then?

And what percentage of people that get the flu, get it that bad? What percentage of covid patients are getting it that bad?

And how much more contagious is covid than the flu.

<comment><USER23> That's not a great assumption. Coronaviruses and other non-lethal viruses make people sick often, and because they aren't deadly, are not well researched and almost never diagnosed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Lucky to have a mild case in mid-March. Would really suck to have to worry about it for six+ months.

I'm older but in decent shape. Had the blahs and burning sandy then stiff lungs for a week. Definitely been sicker though. Basically shook it off.

Been taking vitamin D3 for a few years. That week I took 5-10k D3 a day, 1k% vitamin C + zinc, etc think airborne or Emergen C +. Believe it was what gave me the edge. By coincidence I take a baby aspirin as a blood thinner; it can help avoid blood clots.

During the worst I'd say I lost 50% of my lung capacity. About 2% of the irritated lungs persists, goes up to 5% if I drink too much or don't take my vitamins. I don't notice anymore unless I pay attention.

</comment><comment><USER31> What I'd like to know is: did his friends have any symptoms? Or were they asymptomatic?

<comment><USER16> I skimmed it, but he didn't mention that any of his friends even had it. He just said "my guess is that I caught it there."

<comment><USER31> Yeah, that's why I said this is what I'd want to know. It's hard to tell if that's how he got it otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Dont read this thread. The discussion here is at reddit level. Not the usual HN quality.

<comment><USER23> HN is becoming the victim of its popularity.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Where can I find csv data on the hospitalization rate and CFR in the USA, broken down by basic demographics? Age, gender, etc.

<comment><USER33> Nothing, does it exist?

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> One thing that does seem to be rarely mentioned is the weird rashes Covid can cause. My son and I both had a strange rash on our knees and feet that I've never experienced before. It looked exactly like the erythemato-papular or erythemato-vesicular rash described here [1]. For me this was the only symptom that differentiated Covid from a bad cold.

[1] [https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid- skinrash](https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-skinrash)

</comment><comment><USER35> [http://archive.is/d3GZA](http://archive.is/d3GZA)

</comment><comment><USER36> My friend is in his 50s and had it (tested positive along with his girlfriend who he lives with). He said he felt crappy for about a week, then got better. Moderately athletic and mildly overweight, but not obese. No lasting effects on his health.

<comment><USER37> > No lasting effects on his health.

How exactly would he know that? From all the information going around the virus might do some nasty things to your body, which manifest themselves years later.

<comment> just-juan-post > From all the information going around the virus might do some nasty things > to your body, which manifest themselves years later.

?????

> years later

?????

<comment><USER37> Here's something to chew on:

[https://differentdive.com/covid-19-and- diving/](https://differentdive.com/covid-19-and-diving/)

And here's a quote from the link you may consider before making snide comments:

"While covid-19 can almost be asymptomatic it can also lead to serious damage to the lungs and heart. Two organs that must be in perfect working condition for our diving activity. We will have to be very careful before resuming the activity."

Have a nice day.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Anybody got a non-paywalled link?

</comment><comment><USER38> What does this have to do with tech?

<comment><USER39> It concerns biotech.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> 99% of medical symptoms are just mental illness. Any doc will say the same.

<comment><USER22> Maybe you should talk to a doctor.

<comment><USER40> I have, that's how I know. The 99% might be excessive but not by much.

<comment><USER22> You could also talk to a second doctor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> > The novel coronavirus is not a statistic. It's not an agenda. It's not a > debate.

Sorry you had a fever but it is in fact still all of those things, and your appeal to emotion doesn't make it not so.

<comment><USER42> No, the novel coronavirus is a virus, and a disease, and is not a statistic/agenda/debate. But, there can (and should, and is) be many statistics, agendas, debates, about a corona virus, hopefully.

<comment><USER41> That's what the construct means, that there are those things around it. It's semantics but the point is the author is implying there should be no debate because their anecdote should mean it's obvious we have to react the way the author agrees with. It's a cheap tactic to shut down opposing arguments - "This isn't a debate, this is a real issue and you can't argue with statistics blah blah fall in line with my viewpoint or you're a wrongthinker with an agenda .."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Upvote this one some more, we are sorely lacking on the 'Rona (as the article puts it) horror stories.

Can't let the plebs have a day without frightening them at least once.

<comment><USER44> Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? You've been doing it a lot and we ban such accounts, for what ought to be obvious reasons: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). We've also had to ask you multiple times already. That's not sporting.</comment></comment>


How a Massachusetts carpenter got the highest Scrabble score ever - <AUTHOR> http://www.slate.com/id/2152255/

<comment><USER2> There's definitely an interesting parallel to sports here: the 2 best teams facing each other are rarely part of the highest scoring games.

Of course, this doesn't make the games or records any less valid. I don't know much about the organizational structure of competitive Scrabble so I can't speak to the argument about "club sessions" vs tournaments but the record should be recognized regardless.

I think there's actually a bit of jealously involved here too. Top players probably wish they could play this way more often but they have rankings they need to keep.</comment>


Why Table Tennis is a Great Hacker Sport - <AUTHOR> http://jamesyu.org/2009/01/11/why-table-tennis-is-a-great-hacker-sport/ <comment><USER2> My advice for those who want to be get better is to invest in a good paddle. For example, the Butterfly brand, $35+. And forget hard rubber "paddles", without the right rubber, you will never be able to spin the ball effectively.

<comment><AUTHOR> There's a whole style of play called hard bat that people use, in which they only use hard rubber (or pips out). The fact that they cannot spin effectively can be an advantage -- they aren't affected by their opponents spin!

Given the right technique, they can be deadly, since basically, any spin that you give to the ball is reversed when it comes back (very low friction on their paddle, so essentially their hit does NOT change the direction of the spin. So, for example, if you give them topspin, it will come back at you with underspin).

<comment><USER3> >if you give them topspin, it will come back at you with underspin

You are describing the effect of "long pips".

<comment><AUTHOR> True, I stand corrected.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Though foos is the official sport of Yahoo, I've always preferred the ping pong tables.

<comment><USER5> I have the opposite problem. Ping pong is the official sport of Trovix, whereas I'm a foosball guy (doing a PhD where the staff room has a foosball table and a Mame machine will both make you awesome at foosball and Yie Ar Kung Fu)

<comment><USER6> Same here. I wonder what's player disposition in the USA? I've played mostly 1 - 3 - 3 - 4 and a little 1 - 3 - 4 - 3.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> And for those people who think they need a ping pong table, I bought this as an impulse purchase while at the bookstore and brought it into my relatively conservative office. And it's sad but true that that one $10 purchase generated more positive kudos than anything I'd done recently. Yes, it has hard paddles and the net is tiny but a ping pong break can do you good - (as long as the conference room next door (thin walls) isn't in session).

Desktop Table Tennis

Publisher: Metro Books

Pub. Date: March 2008

ISBN-13: 9781435105966

[http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Desktop-Table- Tennis/Andrew...](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Desktop-Table- Tennis/Andrew-Kirk/e/9781435105966)

</comment><comment><USER7> It's probably not a coincidence that there were ping pong tables in the Computer Center and Engineering Center buildings of our University; lots of people played (I never got into it, though; kinda hard to play when you have tunnel vision).

</comment><comment><USER8> Learning to consistently (>25%) hit the very edge of the table, so that the ball drops almost straight to the floor, is _so awesome_.

<comment><USER9> You wouldn't be able to do that with someone who plays fast enough. Even if you could do it on your serve 25% of the time, that's only an 1/8th of all points. And you'd probably hit a lot of your attempts to hit the edge off the table.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Hell yeah. One of the first things we did in Cali was get a ping pong table. It was a great breaktime activity.

</comment><comment><USER11> Ron Graham was amazed that an elderly and seemingly frail Paul Erdos could easily beat him (may have been those damned amphetamines again!). So he (Graham) bought a ping pong serving machine, and eventually became the table tennis champion of Bell Labs (he's also an expert juggler and trampolinist). I think his wife Fan is also a killer player.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, it's amazing the breadth of age in table tennis. Many pro players can still play in their 40s and 50s, which is unheard of in other sports.

This past weekend I played against this kid in the clubs: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cws4TzPySdw&feature=chann...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cws4TzPySdw&feature=channel_page)

He's 5 years old and can barely reach over the table. But, he's able to back up 10 feet from the table and hit absolutely _huge_ returns. I was able to beat him, but he definitely scored lots of points on me. Given that I'm rated about 750, this is crazy!

Give him a few years and he'll be playing pro in no time.

<comment><USER12> Am I looking at the right video? That kid did not look amazing.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do I reach out to my multi-billionaire cousin? - <AUTHOR> I have got into doing my family ancestry (addicting!) and I am looking for photos of my 2nd great-grandfather/2nd great-grandmother who immigrated to the USA from Scotland.  My side of the family due to some early deaths lost any photos and family mementos.
There is only one person who might have photos (my 1st cousin 2x removed) who is the son of my great-grandmother's twin brother... certainly he would have photos. I looked him up to get his address and to find if he has any social media.  Figured this would be pretty simple but my Google search found that he is a muliti-billionaire  who lives in a house about the size of a city block, is on the board of Berkshire-Hathaway and is childhood friend to Warren Buffett.  Myself in contrast I ate at Jack in the Box today, live in a condo is a small city in California that no one has heard of... and I drive a nice... but lovingly pre-owned car.
I have thought of the following ways to make contact but I am not really in-love with any of these ideas
1. I send a letter with some of the geneology and request for the photos.  Unknown if someone will look at it because he most-probably gets a lot of letters from crazy people and may have given up on anyone opening any of them.
2. He has a son, who does have Facebook but doesn't seem to really use Facebook much.  I could send his son a Facebook message request but his son is a multi-millionaire who has a multi-billionaire father.  I don't know maybe a 2% chance of that working.
3.  I looked up if he has a personal foundation, I figured I would write his foundation but his foundation address goes to a lawyer's office.  Now I have to hire a lawyer to write his lawyer and probably a genealogist to prove the genealogy. (the genealogy is pretty simple from Ancestry.com there is no question to it)
I can't think of any other ways that might be effective and cheap.  What do you think? <comment><USER2> In all seriousness, billionaires are people too with their own quirks and interests.

I suggest sending a letter and include with it all the research you have. Be clear in the letter what your goals are. You might also say something like "are you the JOHN DOE who is the 2nd great grand child of JANE DOE, cousin of MIKE SMITH?" They may not be that person, just someone with the same name. And because of their fame, their google presence may overwhelm the google presence of your actual relative.

You might also consider trying to organize a reunion of the living relatives you do have and inviting them. Maybe they will come.

About 10 years ago, a distant relative reached out to my immediate family and we connected with the "long lost" side of my family. We had a lot of fun.

Your distant relative may enjoy this too.

Also be clear with yourself what your goals are. Don't be Jealous of their wealth. That didn't matter before you were searching. It shouldn't matter now. Your relative must be smart to have the job they do. So your not the first persons to reach out to them. They can probably easily tell the difference between genuine and disingenuous requests.

<comment><AUTHOR> This appears to be the consensus. I am going to give the directly sending a letter method a go.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Think about the two sides of this. You are weighing your interest in genealogy, no doubt legitimate but arguably a curiosity, and your perceptions of its value, against their interest in personal safety and keeping possible threats at bay, and their perceptions of the value of that. And in doing so you are also asking for what they will consider their personal information, in effect, in the form of photos. Who do you think has the heavier weight to consider here? Is your quest really all that important?

<comment><AUTHOR> I believe so. I have children and they don't really have a sense of our family history and I don't either. I feel like it a missing piece that I can't quite put together because everyone has died. I believe my cousin he has the best security he can buy, he should feel pretty secure. He has 4 billion dollars to spend on his protection...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Start with option 1. As long as you're authentically interested in the genealogy project and understand it might take a while to hear back, a letter should be fine.

</comment><comment><USER5> If they've got a ton of money, they're likely to have a PA, so I'd consider reaching out them with an email or letter detailing exactly what you want.

It won't be direct, and even the best case scenario is that the PA says "I have nothing" or "I looked and here's what I found", but it's probably the easiest way to contact someone like that.

</comment><comment><USER6> Why not do all 3?

I wouldn't bother having a lawyer write the 3rd letter, or with the genealogist. Just send the info and see if they write back.

</comment><comment><USER7> Why not just do 1 or 2 first and see what happens. Can anything really go wrong irreversibly so? These people are going to die too unless they're funding some immortality research and are on the cusp of a discovery. May be they would also be interested in their family/ancestry.

</comment><comment><USER8> 4) Become a billionaire and he will reach out to you

<comment><AUTHOR> Good news, it is possible. According to this calculator [https://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/billionaire- calculat...](https://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/billionaire- calculator.htm) I will be billionaire in 110 years at the age of 145. That could work out eventually.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> You can always start with the letter, even if it gets ignored, it costs you little to try while you investigate more complicated approaches.</comment>