Ask HN: What should I do with my old laptop? - <AUTHOR> What's the coolest way to repurpose an old laptop? I'd love to put the excess computing power to use somehow, or start building connected home/IoT stuff, but I'm mainly just interested in hearing what others have done... <comment><USER2> Look into recycling it to somebody who could use a computer. Maybe it is someone down on their luck or struggling to survive and can't find a way forward or an elderly person or just a kid who could do with their own computer.

Slap Ubuntu on it and pay it forward. If you gift it to somebody looking to use it for more than Facebook then stick some free ebooks for Python or such on it.

It is easy to think "but _everyone_ has access to a computer" and while that is mostly true having your _own_ computer is very different from access to one.

My father is a teacher and has recycled three laptops (and a desktop a long time ago) to kids living on the poverty line. I know at least one was very grateful as I got a lovely thank you letter from them.

<comment><USER3> I tried this once. All the local groups that took computers only wanted machines less than 5 years old, and even then only if they were capable of running the latest OS (ie win 8/10). Obviously my definition of "end of life" is different than most and I decided to continue using the machine. In fact, I am typing this on said machine. Continued use is better than recycling.

<comment><USER4> Having been on the receiving end of charitable laptop donations (working at a school in the Third World), I fully understand and sympathize with this 5-year-rule. You wouldn't believe what kind of crappy old laptops get donated - absolutely useless stuff. All too often, the only thing you gain out of a well-meant donation is the hassle of disposing of a piece of junk. Of course there are still laptops that are older than five years and still work fine, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> First Option: Donate it (as @cbanek and other have suggested)

Second Option: Put it on the wall near your door, and have it as a generic assistant. Put the days weather, your family calendar, time until next bus/train, news headlines, etc. on it. They should change at different periods of the day to give you time relevant information (e.g. I want to know the time until the next bus in the morning, but I don't care about this when I'm home in the evening).

Advanced: Have the webcam in the laptop detect when someone comes home using OpenCV or similar. Then, have that information accessible via an app (read: HTML5 webpage). That way, you should know when your kids come home in the afternoon and they forget to text you "I'm home safe". Or you can have it run a script when you come home like reading the latest news stories, reading emails, etc.

The combination of microphone, web camera, battery and screen in this make it perfect for this. Your other options are to use a tablet. You could also link to the Google/Microsoft voice recognition software to listen to your commands (e.g. add Milk to the shopping list).

<comment><USER6> Any particular implementations of generic assistant that you can recommend? Sounds intriguing...

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> If it isn't too old, there are some charities in the US that take laptops and give them to veterans. Goodwill is also a good place.

Other ideas might be to purpose it for your car, or somewhere else, but that depends on how old / large / power hungry it is.

</comment><comment><USER8> Is there a recommended place where geeks in need can apply for donated laptops?

I took a year off with my wife in kids in the cheapest US locale I could find (agricultural area of Puerto Rico) so I could survive on my passive income projects while I learn some new skills (C++, Go, deep learning, and a few others)

I didn't expect to lose both laptops I brought - One to power surges caused by bad infrastructure and one to tiny sugar ants that decided to build a colony inside the laptop.

I've ended my sabbatical and am heading back to the mainland, but it's hard to do dev work on the laptop I managed to breath life back into when I know that if it dies, I have no way to replace it.

I'm sure I'm not the only poor geek out there. Where should we look for cast- off equipment that doesn't get mined by opportunists who just want free stuff to sell on ebay?

<comment><USER9> Where are you at in Puerto Rico? I am in San Juan, and have a laptop I can give you. Would be happy to help a fellow-geek.

<comment><USER8> Overlooking Adjuntas. We wanted to go somewhere with perfect weather and Adjuntas fits that bill :-)

<comment><USER10> Shout out! We're moving there in the next couple of years to grow coffee.

We'll be in Ponce in August (that's where we know the most people, so we'll rent there for a year or two while learning the ropes from some coffee-grower friends and looking for the right land).

<comment><USER8> You're picking a great place to live. The people are friendly, fairly low crime rate, and the weather is amazing. I don't think it's been over 80 since I've been here.

Everyone here grows coffee or bananas, so make sure you're not planning to sell locally.

Water and Electric are inconsistent. Make sure wherever you live has a backup water tank that you keep filled and that your fancy electronics are on a good surge protector or better yet a UPS. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get an inexpensive generator.

Internet is available too! alphanetwireless.com is a local WISP that serves the valley and surrounding mountains. I pay $60 for a 10 down/4 up connection if I remember correctly. Uptime is about 99%. Strong mobile phone signals in the area too across at least 3 different networks my visitors have had.

Downsides? Not a lot of variety in restaurants. Most stuff is fried. Chinese food even comes with french fries. Also, berries are rare and expensive.

My email is in my profile. Send me a message if you have any questions.

<comment><USER10> Ha. I know all that. We lived in Puerto Rico for five years a couple years back.

No, local sales are not at all profitable. The wholesale price of coffee is fixed to benefit the big roasters - our plan is to roast it ourselves and sell retail online as a boutique brand serving the mainland. Our friends already do this, and do OK with it.

The electricity is fine in Ponce (water can be a temporary issue there, too, but every house has a tank); when we do come to Adjuntas, we'll be building a solar house, ideally somewhere with its own spring water.

No hurry. It's PR. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Something that doesn't come up very often: if you find an entrepreneur from Africa/Middle East/Southeast Asia/LatAm they're often very interested in purchasing second hand MacBooks or whatnot to power some new ideas :-) Ebay isn't great because there are steep customs charges which you don't necessarily have if you're selling privately.

<comment><USER12> How is customs going to be any different whether or not eBay facilitated the sale?

<comment><USER13> Shipping it as a gift usually works.

<comment><USER14> No, it doesn't.

<comment><USER13> _usually_. I live in a Third World country and I pay significantly less fees when the item has been declared as a gift.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The machine was future e-waste since it was produced. That is a sunken environmental cost and shouldn't figure into the equation of whether it is useful to prolong its life. There is a running environmental impact related to power usage. This is the one that you need to offset with gained utility. But perhaps the most important decision: at this point you are in control of the end-of-life handling. You can opt for the most responsible process. Once you donate or sell the machine, you have no control, and the further down it goes the more chance it will end up in an illegal landfill, or in a Chinese toxic child-labour scavenging yard.

</comment><comment><USER16> Do we really need 20+ comments calling for OP to give it to charity? It's noble, but it's pretty clear OP wants to start a project with it.

Honestly, if you're a hacker, you're probably not going to want to part with working hardware you might use later. I own a ton of parts and old computers for this purpose.

So, if you're looking to use your old laptop for something novel, I suggest:

1\. Turn it into a TERM server.

2\. Turn it into a media center with KODI(XMBC).

3\. Turn it into a game server.

4\. Put Windows Server onto it and build a home domain.

5\. Install a different OS than your main laptop and use it interchangeably.

6\. Use it for projects that may put your main laptop into danger (water, high voltage, etc.).

7\. Plug a Kinect into it and turn it into a machine vision robot.

8\. Add it to a BlenderGrid with all of your other computers and teach yourself 3D animation.

9\. Install it into your car as a carputer / wardriving rig.

10\. If it has a GPU, use it as a Steambox for low-end gaming. (See also: Media Center)

</comment><comment><USER17> If it has an HDMI port, you can install Kodi[1] on it and plug it to your TV to create a really cool media center.

[1] [https://kodi.tv/](https://kodi.tv/)

<comment><USER18> I did this, but with Plex (I am a Plex user across multiple devices). I use the computer in clamshell mode with HDMI to my living room TV.

Also, I use Rowmote[0] to control the computer -- an old Macbook -- from my phone and run OpenEmu[1] next to Plex for a home arcade solution. I use a Bluetooth PS3 controller for the arcade. SNES works great with Sixaxis controllers, N64 is possible. Havent tried Dolphin[2] yet... But looking forward to it.

Late 2011 MBP for the curious, runs great for the above uses.

0\. [http://regularrateandrhythm.com/apps/rowmote- pro/](http://regularrateandrhythm.com/apps/rowmote-pro/) 1\. [http://openemu.org/](http://openemu.org/) 2\. [https://dolphin- emu.org/](https://dolphin-emu.org/)

<comment><USER19> If you use the SC drivers to turn the PS3 controller into an Xbox controller you can use that to control Plex Home Theatre as well. The Plex mobile apps also work as remotes.

Using a PS3 controller will work in Dolphin, but you'll need multiple controller profiles (think Wiimote + nun chuck, Wiimote sideways, Classic Controller, etc).

Retroarch takes a bit of the pain of setting up different controllers for emulators.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Thinkpad X60 manufactured December 2006. Runs any recent Linux well and could be used for daily tasks including Libreoffice and Web, so I support donation to one who needs basics. Can also run a customised ChromeOS install from

[http://www.neverware.com/](http://www.neverware.com/)

which allows use as Web terminal and music player with local storage.

</comment><comment><USER21> I've got a 1998 Fujitsu laptop that is on 24/7, displaying a digital watch on an old 17" LCD monitor. It's so old it doesn't even have a fan, so it's completely silent(I've also replaced the hdd with a CF->IDE adapter with a 1GB CF card), and it runs Windows 95. I think it's a Pentium MMX 166Mhz + 64MB of ram. I guess nowadays a raspberry pi could do the same job with a slightly lower power consumption, but I've been using that laptop this way for years, so I feel bad about retiring it now.

<comment><USER22> Is it networked? Just wondering about the possibility of time-drift

<comment><USER21> It is actually! I've got an absolutely ancient PCMCIA wifi card that only supports 802.11b, but that's enough to connect to wifi and sync with NTP servers. Without it, the time drift is really bad, about 5-10 minutes/month.

<comment><USER23> I'm always amazed how bad time drift is with non NTP synced systems. I have a couple very inexpensive Timex Quartz analog watches that manage a month without any drift that I notice (they get reset when I need to reset the date wheel).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Run ArchiveTeam Warrior -- [http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=ArchiveTeam_Warri...](http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=ArchiveTeam_Warrior) to help the Internet Archive create archival copies of websites and services that are being decommissioned.

Also BOINC from UC Berkeley -- [http://boinc.berkeley.edu/](http://boinc.berkeley.edu/) \-- to volunteer your processor cycles to scientific research. E.g. the current OpenZika project:

[https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/research/zika/overview.do](https://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/research/zika/overview.do)

</comment><comment><USER25> I use mine as a cat heater.

<comment><USER26> Ceiling cat called. He wants his Prescott back. He is threatening to switch to AMD's FX-9590 unless Intel comes up with a warmer processor a.s.a.p.

<comment><USER27> Funny thing is that FX-9590 max temp is 61C. In comparision 61C is consider "normal" on i5-6500 with stock cooler under heavy load.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> If you're willing to part with it you should consider giving it to someone that doesn't have a computer. Otherwise, just save the computer and run another operating system on it for testing or hold on to it until you find a need for it in your life.

</comment><comment><USER29> How about recycling it? We won't need another wind turbine if people stop looking for excuses to keep old and less power efficient devices up & running.

<comment><USER30> Bear in mind though that if an older laptop displaces a comparably priced older desktop it's likely to use significantly less energy. Typical power consumption is likely to be under 30 watts even for most older laptops, with peaks still well under 100.

<comment><USER31> They still consume power and generate heat. If you want something truly low power, the Raspberry Pi 3 is actually quite capable. Add on the 7" touch- screen display and it's amazing what it can do on a handful of watts.

<comment><USER30> Yes, I understand that the Vespa can do amazing things, is fun to ride and is very economical to use. Still, I was actually looking for a car.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> DONATE to [http://www.computerswithcauses.org/](http://www.computerswithcauses.org/)

<comment><USER33> This option is refreshingly direct, for this thread.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Run pfSense on it as your router, using VLANs to make use of the single NIC on it.

I've done this myself, and it was a great learning tool.

You get the benefit of having a built-in UPS too. Note that you'll need a switch capable of supporting VLANs too, but you can pick these up very cheaply nowadays.

</comment><comment><USER35> We are always collecting them for a program that teaches kids to code in South Africa....anything 10 years old or newer works great for them.

<comment><USER36> I have an old laptop in SA. Could you link to details of the programme?

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I've just started doing this, but here's all I'd like to do. Setup a Twilio service number that hits your old laptop. Write scripts for things you want automated in and around the house. Two I'm working on - buy gifts for people based on their Amazon wish list & download movies based on rotten tomatoes ratings.

When I'm finished, I should be able to text my PA number: "gift John" and a script runs on my old laptop that buys and sends a gift to John.

Admittedly, this is a somewhat contrived use case, but I like automation and repurposing old hardware :D

</comment><comment><USER38> You could make a smart mirror using the monitor behind a one-way mirror. Haven't done it myself but I've seen tutorials online before.

</comment><comment><USER22> I have an old laptop (seems to be from the mid-00s) donated from a friend that I installed Arch Linux on and have constantly on and plugged into my network. It runs an ssh server and I can log into it anywhere remotely. It comes in handy for running scripts, downloading torrents/files when I'm out or I run cronjobs to do certain things at certain times.

</comment><comment> tony-allan A bit off-topic, but old phones and tablets make great clocks for around the house!

And as @haser_au suggests, great information panels.

</comment><comment><USER39> Donation is probably the best way to use it.

I had an old laptop I used to run Linux + Spotify on, so that I could take it to people's house parties and run music off it. No concerns about drink spillages or it being stolen, and you can let anyone add songs to the playlist. Warning: be selective over who you let near it! :-).

</comment><comment><USER40> Aside from giving it away or using it as a cheap 'server' for ssh or whatever, there are a few other fun options. Mount it behind a picture frame or do what I did and pop it in a briefcase as a picture frame. [https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/resize/600x600/61801513953197...](https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/resize/600x600/6180151395319767958.jpg) This is a fun project but you'll quickly get bored with it using up a plug socket :P Another option: I don't know your background or anything, but I see a lot of people with a dedicated laptop running a printer, laser cutter or whatever - saves tying up your primary machine during print jobs.

</comment><comment><USER41> My main machine is actually a x200s. It's a perfectly fine machine for my daily needs, free software development, browsing the web, etc. If it is a machine like that I'd suggest to keep using it and treating it just like any other machine. You could even get rid of the hardware backdoor (ME+AMT) by replacing the BIOS with libreboot and use it as a slightly more secure machine for crypto.

If it's considerably older than that it might still be sufficient for software development, so you could either sell it, or have a refurbisher sell it, or donate it to projects like a local CoderDojo group.

</comment><comment><USER42> VPN server. I've been using a Raspberry Pi for this purpose for a while now.

<comment><USER43> Check out Pi Hole as well to block ads: [https://pi-hole.net/](https://pi- hole.net/)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Wow. These are all great responses. It's funny...I've installed Ubuntu, messed with Kodi and Plex, and run a personal website on it, but at the end of the day, I think I might just actually donate it.

</comment><comment><USER44> I've turned an HP 2000 laptop with an Intel CORE i3 and a smashed screen into a hub for some old scrypt miners, as well as just a general purpose terminal in my 'noc'. If I had another one I would probably use it to learn more about, and set up, a honeypot on my home network.

Does it have a good GPU? Have it run password hashes for Aircrack-ng instead. Are you versed in Linux distros? If not, use it to play with unfamiliar OS (driver issues notwithstanding) without too much worry about breaking anything important.

#tldnr use it to learn something new

</comment><comment><USER45> I always have the same idea when I replace my old machines, but eventually I just recycle them or give them away.

Usually the hardware I'm replacing it is so much faster that using the old machine as a compile farm or something like that doesn't make sense.

Using it in a robot or something sounds fun, but I'm more likely to use a Rasberry Pi or Arduino for that.

Could use it to play with distributed computing, but even that might be easier using a couple VMs on your new machine.

</comment><comment><USER46> As many others say, give it away. Many don't have access to computers, and $100 or less is still a lot of money. Seriously can transform someone's life.

</comment><comment><USER47> Another idea is to be able to run dashboards in the office from these laptops. We have a couple of laptops doing this in the office. We hid the laptops away somewhere so it doesn't look awkward, then route a VGA or HDMI cable to 27 inch screens that are mounted on the wall. We had a pretty complicated dashboard, one that the Raspberry Pi (at the time we set this up) struggled to display.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'm using a 2009-era laptop as a server (ssh, http, irc-bouncer). Having tested the power consumption, (with the screen off), it sits at 6.5 W in idle, according to powertop, so it's very convenient. (I'm quite surprised by this figure, as I doubt modern Core M cpus can be much better than that). It's a P8400 cpu.

<comment><USER49> Modern CPU's and systems can do much better than that. A colleague of mine has a Dell XPS 13, and with the screen off it sips ~3.4W being mostly idle (running Unity desktop doing nothing). I was surprised by this, since the last time I took the time to optimize my laptop's power consumption was in 2010, when 17W was a respectable result.

It's not just the CPU, either. M.2 SSD's are quite a bit more power efficient than SATA, and when you're going to low single digit power usage, even those things start to stack up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> LibertyBSD, learn to use bundled FVWM2 , install SPlayer - Seamonkey - Rox.

Set up ~/.fvwm2rc. Copy it and hack it a lot. Enjoy an ultrafast machine.

Run SMPlayer, search for the option "Skip loop filter", enable it for HD videos.

Get Audacious, you'd need some background music to relax yourself.

Learn to code in Scheme, and get some books on AI .

</comment><comment><USER51> An old laptop is probably best used as a terminal, provided it has decent keyboard and screen. I put my ThinkPad 720C (best laptop keyboard ever, but 4MB RAM) to good use as a Linux terminal using VNC back in 1999... It'd probably be still useful in that role today for what I typically do.

</comment><comment><USER52> I repurposed my old laptop for my writing so I'd encourage you to do the same. Since I'm currently in the process of writing a book I thought it would be the most logical action to take. The laptop is running debian and the text editor of my choice (for the drafting) is Sublime Text.

</comment><comment><USER53> donate it to me. im a poor high school student who is looking to get a mac computer to sart iOS development.

</comment><comment><USER54> I recently turned a 6 year old 11" MBA into my coding laptop for coffeeshops on the weekend. Smaller screen helps me focus and it's good use. Took it to the apple store for a new battery but the sad part is how far technology has come.

</comment><comment><USER55> [http://www.relentlessplay.com/broken-laptop-cool-utility- mon...](http://www.relentlessplay.com/broken-laptop-cool-utility-monitor/)

</comment><comment><USER56> Run Tensorflow stuff on it

</comment><comment><USER57> Will it blend?

</comment><comment><USER58> If it's one of those small ones (thinkpad x60 and x2xx generation), use it as a robot controller. Put it on top of an iRobot Create and experiment with robotics.

</comment><comment><USER59> Not especially cool but I use my old one mostly for uploading video to youtube which can take many hours (slow broadband) while I'm using the new one in cafes.

</comment><comment><USER60> Xubuntu + MPD = Wireless Music Player For your home ;)

</comment><comment><USER61> Reformat it and put an emulation-focussed distro on it.

You could then practice your hardware modification skills and fit it into a different box.

</comment><comment><USER62> RDP terminal, Asterisk pbx, web server, local/cloud file server, torrent uploads/downloads, tiny core system

</comment><comment><USER63> Create your own home VPN, useful on restrictive network environments like office, school.

</comment><comment><USER64> Owncloud server or similar. Having control over your "cloud" is invaluable.

</comment><comment><USER65> I put an undemanding Linux on it and passed it to my 6-year-old daughter.

</comment><comment><USER66> I just my old netbook as CI sever for all my projects, even the simplest.

</comment><comment><USER67> Give it to kids! (yours or someone else's)

They'd love taking one apart.

</comment><comment><USER68> Make it as a free VPN/VPS for other to connect to...

</comment><comment><USER69> home-assistant.io is a pretty fun little hobby. I run it on the same core2 duo laptop I use as my media server. Old laptops work great as home servers.

<comment> tony-allan Starting to get into Raspberry Pi territory — low cost and low power consumption although you need to bring your own external disk.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> technical specs?

</comment><comment><USER71> just keep it,after decades,it would be your memory

</comment><comment><USER72> Beowulf cluster

</comment><comment><USER73> Puppy Linux!

</comment><comment><USER74> Keep it in a drawer. In 10 years time having hardware that you truly own that doesn't spy on you, and open backdoors will seem novel and may be worth a lot of money as a result!

<comment><USER75> If it's an Intel laptop with an Intel ME the op is already out of luck.

<comment><USER76> It's tech. In 10 years the spying tools of that time won't be compatible with current Intel ME chips.

<comment><USER77> Implying the government doesn't run on hardware that is at least ten years old.

<comment><USER78> It only runs on proven technology that's no less than 30 years old.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> Laptops make great low-power 'servers' for soho needs, all in a slim form factor. Obviously won't do if you need grunt, but for light work they're great. They even come with their own Uninterruptible Power Supply and local console!

</comment><comment><USER80> Besides giving it away- use it a backup, personal repository, remote server for times you don't want to carry a laptop with you...?

</comment><comment><USER81> Format and clean it entirely, then install the least resources consuming Linux OS you can find (something like PuppyLinux is great, even though CentOS was good for me, too). Now, you can use it as an extra screen. If it has an HDMI socket you're in luck. If no, just get a HDMI to VGA adapter and you're set.

<comment><USER82> Can you elaborate? You seem to be saying that the HDMI or VGA socket in a laptop can also act as an input instead of just an output? That intrigues me, though I'd also be really surprised if it were the case.

You _could_ potentially use one of those wireless display technologies (Miracast, I think it's called) and setup the computer as a sink, but the software seemed far from usable when I tried that a year ago.

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> Use it as embedded controller in a side project.</comment>


The truth about auto dealer invoice prices (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://clark.com/cars/eye-opening-truth-about-dealer-invoice-price/ <comment><USER2> > Then 1995 happened, and any doofus with five thumbs and a keyboard could get > invoice prices for free all over the Internet.

My uncle was a top car salesman in his area at that time. He said guys would come swaggering in with a printout from the internet, and he'd be like "so what - go somewhere else, then" because it didn't matter - no one was going to sell you the car at zero profit.

If they "secretly" raised the "invoice" price it was almost certainly so they wouldn't have to deal with boneheads constantly coming in and demanding to buy the car at cost.

Anyways, his advice today? Lease. And if you're trading in, wait until the day you're supposed to pick up the new car, then call in and say, "you know, I think my trade-in is worth more than that" \- they will always negotiate at that point.

<comment><USER3> I hear people say leasing is the way to go, but I don't understand the math. Cars easily last 10 years now, and I drove my last car for 18 years. Please explain! Is it about always having a newish car at an optimal price?

<comment><USER4> Leasing wins against having a new car every few years. It fails badly if you keep your cars longer or buy when they're a few years into the depreciation curve.

Personally I decided buying cars a few years old made far more sense.

<comment><USER5> So leasing wins if you've already decided to pour money out the window? I see that you said buying used and older makes far more sense; which means we are probably on the same page. However, is that really the only selling point for leasing? If so, how in the world do so many folks get suckered into doing it?

<comment><USER6> Lots of people like new cars and being able to have the latest year's model every 3 or so years is a big bonus for people. Same a majority of people like having the latest iPhone or Android flagship phone.

Not everyone places value purely in the monetary realm. Some people view cars as a status symbol. There is also less hassle with leasing.

<comment><USER5> Saying people don't place the value in the monetary realm is amusing, since money is supposed to be fungible for all value. :)

That said, I get it. Some people place a ridiculously high value on having the latest. I think I used to be in that population, to an extent. Nowadays, I confess this mentality leaves me ridiculously confused.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I bought a new car last year, and the way I did it was to locate the car I wanted at all dealerships within 300 miles. I then emailed each dealership and asked for the lowest price that they could sell the car for. Then I passed the lowest number to the other dealerships, who counter offered. I iterated this process until no dealership would go any lower, and then I drove to the one with the best deal and picked up the car.

It brought the price a few thousand lower than the supposed "invoice minus holdback minus whatever", but I suppose they wouldn't have sold the car unless they made _some_ profit on it.

<comment><USER8> Sometimes you can take a loss on the car, but make a profit on the sale: [https://www.thisamericanlife.org/513/129-cars](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/513/129-cars)

<comment><USER9> If you're interested in how dealerships actually work (and how perverse and stressful the incentive structure can be), I _highly_ recommend listening to the above podcast. It was fascinating.

One example: sometimes dealerships are selling you a vehicle at a loss, in hopes they'll hit the next volume tier, earning enough manufacturer rebates to make a net profit on the deal. And they _have_ to cut their prices that low if they're in a competitive market.

Which turns the entire endeavor into a monthly game of musical chairs. "And 3rd place? Third place is you're fired."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My sister bought a new car in 2014. She used one of the services that shops your requirements to dealers within your area. The night before her scheduled test drive with the dealer who had the best price and didn't seem sleazy, a friend of hers told her to check with a fleet broker. Within a few hours, the fleet broker sent her a price that was about $100 less than the dealer's.

I went to the dealership with her, we both drove the car and made sure it would fit in her driveway (steep with sharp angles, a recipe for ripping off front trim). On the way back to the dealership I asked how long the paperwork would take. The salesman (actually the sales manager) said it takes a couple hours because of 'state requirements'.

She asked him to match the fleet broker's price, he said it had to be a scam and refused so we drove away. On the way to lunch, she called the fleet broker and had her insurance agent send him proof of insurance (she already had financing arranged). As we sat down to eat, the fleet broker called back and asked when she wanted the car delivered. She got it delivered 2 days later and spent less than 5 minutes doing the paperwork.

I have always fantasized that the next time I buy a new car, I'll figure out a reasonable price and take a cashier's check for that amount to the dealer. I imagine telling them that I want to be on my way out the door with the keys in my hand in 15 minutes or I will leave. But really, why waste time on that when I can just call a fleet broker?

<comment><USER11> If you have a Costco membership and buy cars through them they always send you to the fleet or wholesale section of the dealership. There isn't any negotiation with fleet sales but their price is almost always at invoice or a few hundred less. In fact for one of the cars I bought through Costco the fleet sales guy threw in a manufacturers discount of $2k in addition to giving me a base price of about $500 below invoice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Our strategy is to let local dealers compete, then go in and offer cash at the last minute. But also we have a different agenda, which is: how much is the car worth to me? I've always assumed exactly what Clark says, which is that the dealer invoice is bogus. By paying cash we save a huge amount over the lifetime of the car, and the wiggle room isn't terribly important.

<comment><USER13> Cash is usually the last thing the dealers want because they double dip by getting kick backs by selling loans to people. By financing through a credit union you can usually get a great rate, invest that large sum else where, and pay the loan off early if you want. Some scummy dealers will also only give you a price based on you financing with them, cash is more expensive since they were expecting that kickback.

<comment><USER14> Yeah, whenever I say I'm paying cash they get disappointed and stop negotiating as much. I've learned to save it until the very end when the real salesman, the "paperwork" guy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Dealerships are a state protected scam. They collude on prices and with Kelly Blue Book, as well as wholesale auctioneers to keep prices high.

<comment><USER16> If states allowed direct sales, an entire industry would vanish overnight. Auto dealerships employ two million people in the US. No politician wants that on their hands.

<comment><USER17> Interesting, I didn't realize there were laws against direct sales[1]. The phenomenon of bullshit jobs--i.e., jobs that serve no real purpose--has been discussed here on HN multiple times[2]. It's funny how entire industries (like the 2-3 million people who do health care paperwork in the U.S.) could disappear overnight if the systems and regulations were different, and we wouldn't notice, except possibly for the unemployment it would create.

[1] "U.S. car dealerships [are] protected by state laws. Most state laws expressly prohibit manufacturers and distributors from operating retail outlets. They must by law sell their vehicles through independent franchise retail distribution network." [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe- drive/culture/commutin...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe- drive/culture/commuting/why-cant-we-buy-cars-directly-from-car- companies/article16935030/)

[2] Most recently: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17260911](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17260911)

<comment><USER18> > I didn't realize there were laws against direct sales

Interesting. Not even Germany has such a law, I wonder whether that makes the US a car _maker_ or rather a car _seller_ country?

<comment><USER19> I recall reading that laws against direct sales were created because car _makers_ in the US were very abusive/anticompetitive. So the laws might have had some sense at that time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> One new trick I discovered last time around doing the new dealer quote matching game is to find a set of dealers in a different state.

In our case all the dealers for one brand were owned by a single conglomerate(under different names) however as soon as we mentioned we had a lower quote from a OR dealer(this was in WA) they suddenly dropped their prices significantly.

</comment><comment><USER21> The quoted price for the last used car I bought was a hair under what any third-party pricing resource said it should be, so I accepted. I then learned where the dealer profit margin lives - in a very aggressive upsell to a $2500 maintenance package.

</comment><comment><USER22> Why are people still buying cars?

Google's Waymo is going to be available to the public in less than a year...

People buy cars and expect them to last between 7-10 years.

With Waymo soon to be available to the general public, why would anyone want to buy a car and make a purchase that you pay for over 10 years?

<comment><USER12> In our case, because we live in the Seattle suburbs and we don't have a solution to the problems of street people shitting in the buses, threatening our children and causing fights; of banana republic hours and whimsical every two-hour-or-so schedules; of no room in the Park and Ride lots; or of miles- long walks to the bus stops. You sound pretty smart and probably have the solution to these problems. Please share it.

<comment><USER23> Not to be glib, but a bicycle solves a lot of the medium range issues. I have a car but use it sparingly.

Anything inside of 15 miles or so is fair game and I'm almost always faster than a car and guaranteed faster than public transportation. Kid and grocery hauling is well within reason. And my weather is about as weird as yours.

<comment><USER24> I drive my car less than half a mile to a Wendy's on a regular basis. On a bike I wouldn't be able to bring my dog, it would be weird using the drive- thru, it would be uncomfortable on all but the few days of the year that are a perfect temperature, and I'd be much less safe in the case of an accident (people don't look at all coming out of this one place they're supposed to yield sometimes).

And taking home the amount of groceries that I do on a bike would be impractical, and if put in a backpack, probably hurt my back.

I cherish having the choice to take a car to these kinds of places. No way a bike would be faster because whenever there's someone on a bike in front of me on these routes, I have to slow down, and these routes are never badly congested. Admittedly riding a bicycle in a bike lane can be a lot faster in some of the most congested parts of the country like Manhattan, but there often aren't bike lanes and using sidewalks is a point of contention.

<comment><USER25> >"On a bike I wouldn't be able to bring my dog"

Your dog can run leashed next to your bike, it's a very common way to walk dogs.

Or you could even walk, half a mile is super close.

>"it would be weird using the drive-thru"

Yeah probably a bit. Go inside instead and sit down to eat, maybe?

>"it would be uncomfortable on all but the few days of the year that are a perfect temperature"

You get used to it extremely quickly, trust me :-)

>"I'd be much less safe in the case of an accident"

Even in a car, I would avoid a place like that, and find an alternate route. That just sounds like an accident waiting to happen, to be honest, no matter your mode of transport.

>>"And taking home the amount of groceries that I do on a bike would be impractical"

Yeah, if you only shop once every week or even two weeks. My girlfriend and I manage grocery shopping quite well on foot and bike, and I would think we buy an average amount for two people.

I know it's easiest to stick with what you know, but there's always an alternative.

<comment><USER24> > Your dog can run leashed next to your bike, it's a very common way to walk > dogs. Or you could even walk, half a mile is super close.

Biking across a street with her beside me? No. She freezes sometimes when there's something like a dog or just a person she doesn't like in the distance, and she can be stubborn about running regardless. If I was biking at a speed she could keep up with then I might as well walk. And I wouldn't make her stay outside that long in extremely high or low temperatures, especially 10 minutes both ways.

> Yeah probably a bit. Go inside instead and sit down to eat, maybe?

Like I said, I like to bring my dog, and you can't bring doge inside a restaurant. Taking her with me there and giving her a bit of bacon/whatever has been a great positive reinforcement to make her see car rides as a positive.

> Even in a car, I would avoid a place like that, and find an alternate route. > That just sounds like an accident waiting to happen, to be honest, no matter > your mode of transport.

You're less visible in a bike. It's not a big deal with a car, I just go slow and stay prepared to stop. The speed limit the entire trip is 25mph at most.

>You get used to it extremely quickly, trust me :-) > I know it's easiest to stick with what you know, but there's always an alternative.

In college I walked across campus for food daily. At my job training when I was in a hotel I walked to the nearby mall or Wendy's for food daily. I never particularly got used to freezing temperatures on my face (and sometimes texting gloves weren't enough for the hands) and very hot temperatures. Even in nice weather I didn't like all the walking college entailed. After all this I greatly appreciate having the option of driving, not to mention that I've come to enjoy driving in its own right.

<comment><USER25> I know it's very easy and comfortable to stay in our chosen set ways, but there is always an alternative.

You could train you dog to run alongside you, just like you've trained her to go on car rides. You could sit outside with her and eat.

Setting up mental barriers is very common in order to avoid things seen as uncomfortable or strange, but sometimes you just have to try. See the world in a new light, rather than through a windshield. Enjoy the fresh air (while we still can).

<comment><USER24> Did you read my post? I said I used to walk to get food all the time. I have extensive walking rather than driving to places to get food. Driving is the new thing for me here, which I really only started doing late last year, and it was uncomfortable at first as well. I've made an informed opinion of both after having done both.

And I do go with the windows down when it's reasonable to do so.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> What is the most valuable resource a car salesman has? Time. She/he can't make more of it and any time spent on something that likely won't bring them a deal has a huge opportunity cost.

Knowing that, the most effective way to get the lowest possible price is to spend as much time with a salesperson as possible. Test drive every model, have them dig up odd questions and get them convinced that you're going to buy. After all, a serious buyer would never take so much time if they weren't serious.

The sales rep will see all the other potential buyers coming into the lot getting help from his competing reps. This isn't a big deal if she/he is convinced you'll buy.

After spending all day, walk away. And do it at the absolute last minute. The sales rep and their boss will do everything they can to get you locked in because 1) they were already set on you buying and 2) they burned a huge amount of time helping you and missing out on other buyers. They're too mentally invested in seeing you buy.

There's no guarantee you'll get something at cost or at a loss but you'll put the power in your hands and be working with someone who's as invested in buying as you are.

The idea that you can email your way to the lowest price is far less effective. The amount of time it takes for a car salesperson to reastart one to an email is trivial compared to burning an entire day test driving vehicles with you.

<comment><USER27> _your_ time also has value. Spending a whole day to get a lower cost might not save as much money as it seems

<comment><USER28> Sometimes it is worth it. I spent 2 days to buy a truck. I flew to another state and drove it home. It mostly went according to plan except the leaky power steering hose that I spotted the first minute I looked at it - and then spent the next 5 hours waiting for them to fix it. I wish I could trade more weekends for $5,000.

<comment><USER18> > except the leaky power steering hose

Great QA right off the bat.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Smartphones Are Toys First, Tools Second - <AUTHOR> https://www.raptitude.com/2019/05/smartphones-are-toys-first-tools-second/ <comment><USER2> Disable all notifications except _direct_ messages, and reminders that you create yourself.

Delete all apps that are _designed_ to be checked over and over.

Put all other apps that _could_ be checked over and over (finance, video streaming, shopping - believe me) inside folders, on screens behind the main screen. You should have to consciously look for them when you actually need them.

Don't sign in to any social sites in your browser, and don't let favorites or recents give you colorful icons for your frequented sites. Force yourself to type in the website you want to go to.

My home screen consists of music, direct communication, maps, notes/calendar/contacts, and the web browser. None of these can be idly checked except the web browser. They all encourage intentional interaction or none at all. Sometimes I open my phone subconsciously, look at the icons, and put it away again because there's nothing to be done.

<comment><USER3> I do this but then I just type to an unsigned-in Reddit and get the crappy front page instead of at least a controllable selection of topics. The web browser is the killer of this strategy.

<comment><USER2> The web browser is problematic - HN remains a bit of a Skinner box for me - but it still denies you two important addictive mechanisms: candy-colored icons and attractive design. If there's no icon begging you to tap it, and the interface when you get there is "crappy", there's much less artificial addictiveness in the equation.

<comment><USER4> Try HN's noprocrast feature on the user settings page.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This excerpt summarizes the author's chief complaint:

 _For most of us, they easily soak up far more time than they save, capturing our attention dozens of times daily, and directing it to gratifying but mostly forgettable activities, usually infused with advertising._

I empathize. I just set up a new phone and was frustrated by all the unwanted notifications spammed at me from my OS and the latest versions of so many of my apps. It seems a lot worse than the last time I did this few years ago, and I'm constantly tweaking settings to stomp them out.

This began as a surgical exercise - usually I don't want to kill all the functionality, just turn off the specific alerts I don't care about. But it's gotten to the point I feel like I'm waging war against an ecosystem of developers intent to squander my attention without recognizing it's an incredibly scare and valuable resource.

Messenger in particular was so difficult to get to shut up that I just wound up removing all Facebook's apps. They're not the only offender. If you have an Android, go into App Info for Google Maps ( _edit:_ then tap Notifications) and look at the sheer volume of stuff it wants to nag you about.

<comment><USER6> I like to turn off all notifications (noise, vibration, and lock screen) other than audio calls. All other messaging is asynchronous and shouldn't be important enough to disturb your focus. On iOS, I even move the apps that have the little red numeric notification circle to a different page than the first, so I don't see it until I want to see it.

<comment><USER7> You can turn the little red bubbles off.

Go to Settings Search for notifications Go to the specific app and turn off Badges

My normal routine is that turn them all off, then go back and turn on the specific ones I want. But it turn off the badges for virtually all of them.

<comment><USER8> Having a home page free of little red circles changes how you look at your device. It is freeing and a breath of fresh air. It is amazing what a psychological impact these red badges have over us.

<comment><USER9> I recently turned off all notifications. Messaging apps can still have badges. As a former developer for a notification sending product I feel stunned at how much I'm preferring this setup.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Aren't they supposed to be toys? I mean, I need a smartphone for e-mail and maps, but I don't need something that's more powerful than an iPhone 5 for that, and yet I'm typing this on an iPhone XS while I'm on my commute to work (election preparations).

The reason I have the XS was mainly because I wanted more screen space for things that fall in the "toys" category, things like hackernews, and I'm certainly looking forward to playing the Harry Potter Pokemon go. I also wanted the better camera to take better pictures of my newborn, that I share with our family in Tinybeans.

I don't see a problem with that at all though. I did turn notifications off from everything except the e-mail where I get alerts. I use todoist, a todo app, to schedule a lot of things, but even that doesn't allow to alert me, not even with a little red number on the app icon.

I suggests this to everyone. I did it at a suggestion of my personal- efficiency-coach, but once the apps stopped reminding me to open them, it instantly freed up hours of daily time. Now I check them when I want to, like right now, where the alternative to my smartphone is quite literally staring at the open train bathroom across me. This had the added advantage/side effect of making me realise what apps I didn't actually want.

<comment><USER11> I agree with what you wrote, my iPhone has all notifications off and the only person who can make it ring is my wife.

But

> staring at the open train bathroom across me

I have since found that this sort of time wasting is pretty powerful way to let creativity recharge. It's like disengaging from screen let's my mind work at it own rhythm.

<comment><USER10> Typically I'd agree, if I was seated next to a window I'd be looking outside. That's often how I get my best ideas, but the bathroom is just too boring. Especially because it's the same bathroom I look at every day.

I sit on folding seats in the conjunction between carts because I commute with my folding bike, and it's just easier to sit out here, but I do think you're absolutely spot on. I think "wasting" time is extremely valuable.

<comment><USER12> > I think "wasting" time is extremely valuable.

Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

At the very least you get to disconnect your brain. At best you come up with something awesome.

<comment><USER13> > Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

People use this to justify just about everything, like being addicted to World of Warcraft for 5 years and forgoing their ambitions to watch Netflix. It's a joke at this point.

It needs to come with a second part "but do your best to set yourself up for life fulfillment" or be refactored into "don't beat yourself up for wasting a little bit of time". Wasting time and instant gratification will absolutely keep you from achieving what you want in life.

<comment><USER14> Time you "waste" looking out the window, thinking about life is not instant gratification and doesn't beg you to come back whenever you can. It's really not comparable to a video game, movie streaming, or social media.

<comment><USER13> > Time you "waste" looking out the window, thinking about life is not instant > gratification and doesn't beg you to come back whenever you can.

Exactly.

Now compare the difference between what you said and the trite "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" that I responded to. That's my point.

<comment><USER12> When you consider something wasteful it trumps what another person thinks about the same? Are you using some objective criteria for this? I'm sure something you consider a good use of time is considered wasteful by a good number of people.

So my point is: should I consider binge watching Netflix (random example) as wasted time because you consider it a waste or should I keep doing it because I enjoy it? Especially if objectively speaking it doesn't prevent me from being a useful member of society, perhaps more so than many people who don't engage in such "wasteful" behavior.

You can probably find a counter example for most rules you can think of. A cherry picked example doesn't negate the premises.

Years ago some guy was rambling about shadows in a cave. Not quite WoW but still pretty wasteful depending on who you asked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> A few personal usage tactics I've been experimenting with, since I've been dealing with smartphone overuse since 2005:

1) No social media apps.

2) Four icons on the home screen (for iPhone, go to this site: [https://david- smith.org/blank.html](https://david-smith.org/blank.html) click share button and add to home screen. Change wallpaper to black. Each black icon you add to the home screen will take up a space where an app would have been, helping you focus on apps that you find most important)

3) Airplane mode when I'm on vacation (so I can still use the camera but won't be tempted to reply to a text).

4) Few notifications other than calendar, phone, and text. Absolutely no email notifications. Selective and timed Slack notifications since I'm often mobile and don't want to be the bottleneck at work.

5) No games.

6) Limited video use. Overuse hasn't been a problem, so I don't set hard guidelines on this.

7) Leave phone in car [clearly I don't live in SF] or at home during scheduled time with loved ones.

8) Wear cellular Apple Watch and carry AirPods in pocket when leaving phone at home - if there may be an important call coming in while I'm intentionally preventing myself from working while mobile.

9) Keep phone charging at night in bathroom on do not disturb. No checking during middle of the night bathroom usage.

10) Limit non-essential apps to informational apps - like HN.

Smartphones are tools first or they can be toys first. That depends on the goals and discipline level of the user.

<comment><USER16> Great list. I go a little further on notifications: Do Not Disturb (DnD) mode 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, which inhibits all calls, texts, messages, E-mails, and most importantly notifications. This allows you to use the phone on your own terms and schedule, not on someone else's, including app developers desperate to prod you into their apps. A big part of the smartphone problem, in my view, is how we have all become slaves to them--using them when they demand to be used, rather than when we choose to use them.

If it's important, they'll leave a message or E-mail, which you can check on your own schedule.

<comment><USER17> Hopefully your father / brother / SO / whoever doesn't need urgent help from you, ever.

I used to always power off my phone at night, until one day at 2am I was in the middle of nowhere needing help from a friend, and he did actually answer the phone. He told me: "if it was the other way around, you wouldn't have helped me". For me it was a life saver, and I could totally see how harder would everything have been if he did like me every night (no one else to call at that moment, before that's asked).

Since then, my phone is kept on and unsilenced at night. If anyone important to me needs my help, I want to be there for them. Not that it's happened ever once in the last 10 years, though :)

<comment><USER18> Do not disturb on iOS let's repeated calls through for emergencies.

<comment><USER17> That's such a good idea! I wonder if it's possible to configure something similar in Android..

<comment><USER19> You can also allow calls from contacts in ios dnd. Android may have that, or allowed callers etc

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> We are social creatures. Everything he's talking about (aside from the simpler games) engages our social centers, much like dinner parties and water cooler talks and other social gatherings did in the past. People want to engage, even vicariously, and feel social worth, because social interaction is a huge part of our psyche.

Smartphones are empowering, but they also present a change in our environment that we're not properly adapted to. The social lure that binds groups together is being hijacked by social apps because they tap into the same psychology. And they would have done so without the Facebooks of the world (in fact they did, with Usenet and BBSes and party phone lines and television and radio and so on).

We won't adapt quickly enough as a species to avoid being enraptured by social apps (except for a tiny minority), so we'll need an artificial solution to deal with it.

<comment><USER21> I deeply believe smartphones are the social equivalent of pornography for sexuality. You get your needs when you want how you want but in fact it's only a pale copy of the real thing.

<comment><USER22> And here I thought smarthphones are the social equivalent of neighbourhood kid playgrounds of my generation. Kids there were each on a similar, but slightly different and completely independent schedule. We wouldn't arrange social events in advance, we'd just go outside when we wanted and play with whoever happened to be there, for as long as either of us was there. Just like social media today.

<comment><USER21> Sorry for my bold point but, most of the time I feel that saying hi to someone in the street has more impact on me than having long convos on reddit. There's something to physical proximity that is missing from the web (obviously) and people trying to make it a full replacement are somehow lying.

<comment><USER22> I don't disagree. There is something in meatspace interactions that isn't captured on the Internet. Probably even multiple small somethings that add up to a different quality. And while I feel my social media activity currently brings in more value than most of the meatspace conversations, I would _really_ like to have these kinds of conversations I have on HN _in a bar_ , face to face.

<comment><USER23> Yes, social media conversations are more interesting, and you'll learn more.

But emotionally, they hold little value compared to face to face interactions.

But with regards to learning and information, there's often much better we could do than social media - for example good books, or at least summaries of books, hold an order of magnitude more value than most social media.

But the way social media and the internet manipulated our attention, does make it harder for us to read those.

<comment><USER21> There's a trend since the ubiquity of computers and internet that the most important thing in life is information and truth. When you're face to face with someone, information is rarely the most important thing. What matters is how you share time and space to make for a good time for people involved.

<comment><USER24> > There's a trend since the ubiquity of computers and internet that the most > important thing in life is information and truth.

Sadly, the ubiquity of computers and the internet have also enabled disinformation and denial of information and truth at unprecedented scales.

<comment><USER21> It's actually not far from my previous point. Seeking truth when you're not aimed for it or understand its limits reverts to ~tribal and emotional reflexes of trust and influence, a large opportunity for disinformation. And is the sour parallel to relating to others mostly emotionally (except anger). The difference is that people are sold 'pure <sourced> information' as a new paradigm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I wish Google Maps wouldn't invent new notifications every other month and enable them by default. No, I don't want to check-in, review, or take photos of whatever place I'm in. I'd prefer a faster-loading app instead, to just look up simple directions and orient myself.

And sometimes I want to jot down a quick note or create a new calendar reminder, not to be bombarded by "Check out the new features, Got It?" speech bubbles.

It's annoyances like this that make using my phone frustrating. It doesn't feel like a personal device that's under my control at all, it's something I reluctantly use and indeed look forward to working out of my life. I'm more attached to my 2nd hand laptop running Linux Mint, and for good reason.

<comment><USER26> What notification from Google Maps do you need that you're not just disabling its notifications at the app level?

<comment><USER25> Turns out none, thanks for the reminder :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I will try and switch to a simpler phone Cat B35 to see if I can cut out smart phone addiction. The Cat B35 uses KaiOS which is a Firefox OS clone. I will also carry a pocket camera like a Sony Rx100 for taking good quality photos.

I realize my mind is addicted to smart phones touch interfaces and applications and that phones are distracting me from reality. IE the haptic dopamine reward from touching the screen in combination with applications.

The experiment is what you will gain from having a simpler device which is focused on call first.

KaiOS [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS)

<comment><USER28> Hey that compact camera idea is pretty good! With no clue about them, and looking at Wikipedia and the Sony website, I have still little clue. Could you link me some information about cameras? I see several different RX100 cameras and several, much cheaper, W8x0 ones. I'm bad at taking pictures but I still like to take some when there are these lambs by the side of cycling roads here for example, so those compact cameras could be nice to carry in the bag while my older iPhone SE is not the best at taking pictures.

<comment><USER29> Not OP but I'm a fan of keeping up with camera tech.

dpreview.com is my goto for comparing cameras. There are 7 different RX100's as Sony keeps upgrading it every year - mostly little things - more focus points, faster focus and light metering, higher frames per second... you really can't go wrong just buying the most expensive one in your budget, even the oldest ones will take great pictures -- they'll just be slower.

Check out

[https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best- pocketabl...](https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best-pocketable- enthusiast-cameras)

Also worth looking into, my favorite cameras are 'fixed prime' \- there's no zoom so you have to be creative and zoom with your feet, and the lens is matched to the sensor and gives really surprising high quality shots without much effort.

[https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best-fixed- pri...](https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/buying-guide-best-fixed-prime-lens- cameras)

Happy shooting.

<comment><USER28> Thanks for the details! I've been reading that website for a bit now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> This has been my modus operandi:

• No push notifications (except for one human, and that too via SMS).

• No "social media" accounts (never had it on the phone to begin with; and removed my FB account 5+ years ago).

• Use gray scale (this turned my phone into a very peaceful device). On Android, this can only be enabled via the "Developer options" (and then select "Simulate color space" \--> "Monochromacy")

• The "apps" on my phone are most practical ones: Maps, English & Dutch dictionaries, Orgzly (Org-Mode-based note taker), Spotify, Signal, WhatsApp, a couple of train look-up services, Firefox and an OTP generator.

This has been instrumental in making sure that my attention is not splintered all over the place. And lets me retain the ability to concentrate and read books in 2-hour, undistracted blocks. Go me!

<comment><USER31> Thanks for that grayscale advice.

<comment><USER32> I loved the grayscale mode, but in the end I had to set so many exceptions via tasker for apps where I do need color for the UI (Such as Google Maps, Uber, and Calendar), that it proved to be more of a hassle.

<comment> 52-6F-62 I use an iPhone with a home button. I bound greyscale to a triple-click of that so I can switch on and off at will pretty handy if that's possible on your end.

<comment><USER19> Note that this dramatically slows multitasking as the system waits for a third press.

Not an issue on the X style phones.

<comment> 52-6F-62 Good point that I'd never considered—though I honestly didn't notice and adjusted to it pretty easily. Could see how it would bother some people, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Smartphones are what I think of as "attention capturers" which are able to completely capture almost anyone's attention span for a significant amount of time. Other attention capturers include computers[0], video games, TV, books, chess. Each of these has varying capability as attention capturers but it is safe to say that smartphones are the strongest attention capturer for most people.

I believe that using any attention capturer for long periods is not healthy and should be avoided. The hard part for me is actually finding anything else to do in a new city without family/friends. Especially on a Tuesday night after work where it is less possible to go to a bar and talk to strangers.

[0] Smartphones can be included here.

<comment><USER34> >I believe that using any attention capturer for long periods is not healthy

Why? I assume you mean psychologically, not physically (which is more obvious why).

<comment><USER33> I've noticed several side effects such as decreased attention span, decreased sociability, decreased desire to do anything other than your preferred method of attention capturing.

Frankly I just think that many of these things are simply addictive and, with an appeal to naturalism, I don't think it is what humans were meant to do. Increased smartphone use or TV watching or video games probably almost never results in increased happiness over the long term.

Not to mention the ability to use attention capturing as a way to hide from one's own emotions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I have switched from using my phone for anything-distracting to only-work. I have been trying it for a long time. Had removed most addictive Social apps some time back.

WhatsApp usage went down gradually, and not it is limited to early mornings or evenings. Messenger is rarely used (once in a couple months).

Instagram and Twitter for more social media marketing for our products than personal.

No games on phone at all. I have finally been very content with my phone as a tool for about 1.5 years or so.

Most used apps _I think_ are Gmail (multiple accounts including products), then car pooling app, Slack and WhatsApp.

[Edit: added most used apps]

</comment><comment><USER36> For a real account of how people are going to use smartphones - look at teenagers. they're always glued to their phones, they edit photos on their phones, they make plans on their phones, they write poetry on their phones, kids even do homework on their tablets/phones now.

The dirty truth is app tool makers have been slow to adopt smartphones/portable screen as input devices as a dev tool. Apple refuses to put xcode on ipad and refuses to put a touchscreen on a mac(but have included that godawful POS touchbar), google hasn't made ANY real take the charge forays into a drag and drop android app creator and microsoft doesn't have a clue.Indie app creators aren't incentivised to make dev tools for smartphones because adoption is low since hardware/software makers are trying to artifically push a "phones are for play, laptops are for work" artifice(apple/google/microsoft).Ironically Samsung dex is an actual vision of a realistic phone as primary computing tool future but Apple is too focused on profits to adopt this paradigm.

The moment we see actual real "native mock to deployment" tools on mobile devices is the moment the distraction moniker will go kaput.

it's not that phones are distracting us from our work, it's that our whole world is on the phone, the social bits the communication bits and the entertainment bits - except for the bit of the world that deals with making things.

<comment><USER37> The xcode experience is bad enough on a top-of-the-line MBP with the best peripherals (monitor, keyboard, etc) available. I say this as someone who has spent, on average, 8+ hours a day in xcode for the past four years. Maybe Apple refuses to put xcode on iPad because trial runs had devs looking for the nearest window to jump out of.

<comment><USER38> I've been running Xcode on a mediocre MacBook Pro with no peripherals for the last five years (though I only spend a couple of hours on average per day). It's not awful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> > We don't play with tape measures

Oh, yeah, we do... :)

<comment><USER40> See how far you can push it out until it collapses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I broke a laptop and didn't replace it because I'm trying to learn to use my android phone as a tool more. It does have a usb-c port.

It works okay. Needs more drivers. The issue with using phones as a tool isn't the phones theirselves its the surrounding infrastructure. If somebody wants a business idea how about selling phone compatible tools?

</comment><comment><USER42> After I got mu PhD in the neuroscience of habit formation, I made an app to help people reconfigure their phone to prevent or dismantle exactly this kind of compulsive relationship with their phone.

Check it out here: [https://youjustneedspace.com/](https://youjustneedspace.com/)

</comment><comment><USER43> Based on the title, I thought this was gonna be about how the entire UX design of smartphones is utter garbage, and hence they cant be used to do most kinds of work, and the stuff that _is_ possible is much slower / error prone.

Imo they have been designed from the ground up to be merely shiny toys / gadgets.

The most fundamental flaw in the design is the touchscreen. Eg. Press a button which is just part of the screen and has 0 haptic feedback, so the only way to locate it is by looking at it, but your finger is obscuring it (as you are moving to press it with your finger) so you cant see it. It is a paradoxical situation.

</comment><comment><USER44> >For most of us, they easily soak up far more time than they save, capturing our attention dozens of times daily, and directing it to gratifying but mostly forgettable activities, usually infused with advertising.

I suspect this to be one of those things we all think everyone else is doing but that very few people are actually doing in reality. Frankly, all time I spend on my phone is actually valuable, or at least not better spent doing anything else, and I think it's the same for most people.

</comment><comment><USER45> More people said it here but I do 60-70% of my work on my smartphone, including dev. No games, no social networking, just work. It is not only not a toy, it is vital to my workflow.

</comment><comment><USER46> No, smartphones are tools used by companies to extract personal data and/or money from people.

<comment><USER40> And, when needed, LEO tracking devices.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Like anything else, though.

Computers in the 70s might have been business machines, but families got them because kids wanted to play videogames

</comment><comment> T3OU-736 The reason we'd have difficulty explaining the smartphone to someone from 60s is because it uses a while lot of infrastructure for all those spicy functions to be available. This is not to take away from the pocket computer's awesomeness, but there decides in our pockets aren't self-contained.

(Edit: keyboard mis-swipes)

</comment><comment><USER48> A lot of good usage tips in this thread. One that not enough people use (IMO) is to get a notification inbox app. Like this one (although I use one I made myself): [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wandoujia....](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wandoujia.notification&hl=en)

Basically it sucks up notifications from all (or selected) apps into an inbox- like interface similar to email. You can check it when you want, but it's not in your face.

There are a lot of apps where I don't want to disable notifications, but I also don't want them interrupting me. NYTimes is a good example of that, since I do want to read the news but only on my own schedule. A notification inbox has helped me a lot.

</comment><comment><USER49> Smartphones are totally toys. I am so efficient on a desktop I can't stand to use them for anything work related. I pretty much use it to glance at emails and take pictures. Oh and don't forget the government mandated backdoors and location tracking a la the 911 laws.

</comment><comment><USER50> I only use my phone for taking photos so I can remember what I saw or as reference to what I am doing. I wish there's an app that could tag the photo automatically so I can search it and reference it again.

The only time it would ring or get a message is if there's something important from my wife.

<comment><USER51> > I wish there's an app that could tag the photo automatically so I can search > it and reference it again.

Google photos does exactly this.

<comment><USER50> I tried it, its only good at categorizing images. I wish it could index the text and numbers at different angles also. I also wish it can further filter what you have already searched.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> I was strongly reminded of this yesterday when I wanted to send someone the PSK for a home WiFi network. It baffles me that I'd need root access and a separate tool to extract the PSK.

Are there any phone manufacturers that still let you root without potentially bricking the phone etc?

</comment><comment><USER53> Very poorly argued. The premise ignores that many of those superpowers are available on your computer. So giving up the phone is not as big a sacrifice as is being claimed.

</comment><comment><USER54> Having a metered plan helped tremendously (and saves me money).

I tend to eschew Twitter/Reddit and focus on podcasts, or binge a little Wikipedia waiting for the train.

</comment><comment><USER55> my phone is my most powerful daily life, work, research device

</comment><comment><USER56> Well I didn't read tfa, but I disagree with the title.

I use the camera, document producing capabilities quite frequently in my work, in addition the regular features of loudspeaker conference calls (when Skype for Business fails) and so on.

I only take time to play with it, when I'm bored on plane rides.</comment>


Arizona man says bum Theranos blood tests led to heart attack, files lawsuit - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/07/arizona-man-says-bum-theranos-blood-tests-led-to-heart-attack-files-lawsuit/ <comment><USER2> It's not clear in the OP, but according to the complaint, the test that the plaintiff underwent was the finger prick method:

> _76\. Theranos drew blood from R.C. using its "tiny drop" finger prick > method. The process was painful and was not quick as advertised. The > phlebotomist struggled to secure enough blood from R.C.'s finger and had to > repeat the painful process several times before collecting enough to test._

IIRC, Theranos did regular type of draws, too, as the finger prick tests weren't performing particularly well. They touted their venous draws as being more efficient and cheaper than the standard tests, though:. From their homepage:

> _Our tests, including venous draws, require smaller samples than traditional > labs. We also use much smaller needles. Ones designed specifically for > collecting blood for children, taking the smallest sample possible. Theranos > tests mean less blood, an easier process, and a clear difference in your > experience._

<comment><USER3> > Our tests, including venous draws, require smaller samples than traditional > labs.

This seems highly suspect, considering that their venous draws were processed on the same equipment as that used by "traditional labs", following the same procedures as those used by "traditional labs" \- or so, at least, have run the company's claims, when they're arguing that only the Edison tests are invalid, and that the non-Edison tests are as reliable as those performed by "traditional labs". I don't see how both sets of claims can be true at once.

<comment><USER4> Normally nurses draw more than necessary so that the lab can do retests, or do additional tests. Once you're sticking a needle in someones vein the marginal aggravation of taking extra blood is pretty small.

So they could probably get away with taking less blood.

<comment><USER3> If that's the difference, it means either:

\- Theranos' vein-stick patients, in the aggregate, got stuck more often than patients whose bloodwork was processed by other "traditional labs", because their vein stick samples didn't include the usual amount of padding; _or_

\- Theranos' "traditional", i.e. non-Edison, results were more than ordinarily bogus, too, because they didn't have enough sample to rerun questionable results and didn't poke another hole in the patient to get more.

Neither seems a point in favor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Everyone who has had one of their tests and a health issue will sue them. How can they survive? Is their war chest that big? I can't see them getting any more money.

<comment><USER6> I'm sure most of their employees are ethical, intelligent people who should have good jobs.

But to be clear, Theranos should not survive. Medicine is all about trust. Theranos appears to rightfully have nobody's trust.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Obviously people are looking to cash in. The lack of details on this one is expected. What could be the starting situation in which a man is on medication for something (unstated) and his blood lipids and blood sugar come back normal when they were in reality abnormal and, further, if that abnormality had showed up the doc would have changed the meds in such a way that the heart attack wold have been prevented one month later? One one month pre heart attack you are probably pretty occluded already. Are we to assume this guy had no angina a month prior? Are we to assume that he did not but seeing a high blood sugar would have led his physician to an investigation that would have led to a cardiac study?

<comment><USER8> I do not see this as an "obvious" attempt to take advantage of Theranos' bad situation. The lawsuit claims that the patient and his doctors made medical decisions based on the test results, and those decisions likely contributed to his heart attack. That sounds like a reasonable argument to me.

<comment><USER7> Clearly you do not have a medical background and either ignored or did not comprehend what I wrote. You offer no counterargument. You are simply restating their vague argument more succinctly and asserting it is reasonable.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Sweesh Wants to Be the FBI for Startups - <AUTHOR> Hey founders, A company that just graduated from the recent YC startup school wants to be the FBI for companies.
We will be helping companies to do background checks, profiling and analysis of their competitors or Bay other company or individual. You can get early access now to the startup
https://www.sweesh.us
There is a free Trail where you can request for one free profiling of a person or company. Save your spot now sweesh.us <comment><USER2> How are you handling privacy and people's criminal records? I find the US- style background checks very invasive, rarely helpful and absolutely counter to offering second chances to people who want to get back on their feet. How will your business deal with these things?

</comment><comment><USER3> If you need help building a website, just use square space or something.

You did not graduate from startup school. It's not a program like that. Don't mislead people.

Is your logo a... screenshot of another company's logo?</comment>


Entrepreneur's Annual 100 Brilliant Ideas  - <AUTHOR> http://www.entrepreneur.com/magazine/entrepreneur/2010/june/206722.html

<comment><AUTHOR> I know location will be big but not sure Foursquare will be the winner. Square and Toktumi both look solid to me.</comment>


Ask HN: Is Google Go a reinvention of the pike programming language? - <AUTHOR> http://pike.ida.liu.se/

<comment><USER2> Pike is interpreted and dynamic. That alone should be enough to qualify this Ask HN for a one word response: "no".

</comment><comment><USER3> The major 'new' features in GO over 'C' are in my opinion the 'goroutines' and the 'channels'.

I don't see either of those in the 'pike' documentation.

Interesting how one of the authors of 'GO' is called Pike!

</comment><comment><USER4> Very cursory examination shows no goroutines, lots of talk about Objects (not in go) and a dynamic appearance. I would say no.</comment>


React Is a Terrible Idea - <AUTHOR> https://www.pandastrike.com/posts/20150311-react-bad-idea

<comment><USER2> > Seriously, why not just introduce JSX ... as separate libraries?

Well, they kinda did something like that just recently, they're using Babel now instead of their own:

[https://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2015/06/12/deprecating...](https://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2015/06/12/deprecating- jstransform-and-react-tools.html)

Maybe they'll spin off more parts as React matures?</comment>


New package: GNU Datamash - <AUTHOR> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2014-07/msg00007.html

<comment><USER2> Looks nice, but I foresee usability issues with that _-H_ flag.

The last two examples on [http://www.gnu.org/software/datamash/examples/](http://www.gnu.org/software/datamash/examples/) seem to indicate that _-H_ adds output headers, but it also requires input headers, and there is no way for the program to discriminate a header line from a sample. So, if your _FILE.TXT_ doesn't have headers, the tool will silently ignore the first sample in the input file.

<comment><AUTHOR> I had to think about this for a bit. I'm not entirely sure how you could fix this. Best I can do is the system could test if the first row has "numeric" data and give a warning if so. Are there smarter ways?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Excellent looking tool. Hope to test it out with some large datasets and see how well it does.</comment>


Give a OLTP Laptop and Get One - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/sep2007/tc20070923_960941.htm?campaign_id=rss_tech

<comment><USER2> I am considering buying one and donating one, but I still wonder if giving a laptop to a poor child in the third world really helps them vs. doing something else like improving their education or health care by $200, or maybe giving $200 worth of microloans.

<comment><USER3> yeah I was thinking the same thing. would it be better to put my money into kiva.org or olpc?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Glad to see that the "Buy One for Yourself, Donate One" idea is back; I saw a talk they gave in February where they said that idea was off the table ([http://blog.seeksift.com/2007/02/28/one-laptop-per-child- hac...](http://blog.seeksift.com/2007/02/28/one-laptop-per-child-hackers- wanted/)).

<comment><USER5> That was before they were more desperate for money- apparently they have not yet secured an order. They have to resort to selling in the US to raise money and keep the volume up to keep production costs down.

<comment><USER4> It's not the worst way to raise funds; there's been enough curiosity raised that they should get several takers on that offer (I know I'll participate when I get the chance in November).

It's also interesting why they scrapped the "buy one / donate one" idea in the first place; according to this NYT article ([http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/business/worldbusiness/24l...](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/24/business/worldbusiness/24laptop.html)):

 _Staff members of the laptop project were concerned that American children might try the pared-down machines and find them lacking compared to their Apple, Hewlett-Packard or Dell laptops. Then, in this era of immediate global communications, they might post their criticisms on Web sites and blogs read around the world, damaging the reputation of the XO Laptop, the project staff worried._

Strange, because so many of the initial reviews were overwhelmingly positive.

Also, it contradicts the official line given in February, which was "they want to focus the production output to kids who need them".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> On-Line Transaction Processing? They do that on laptops now? :-)

<comment><USER4> Just part of the latest outsourcing trend: kids in the 3rd world will make sure your bank statements are up-to-date ;)

<comment><USER7> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=59195>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Does someone want to make a VM of the software? It would be cool to try out (Not sure if it requires the OLPC firmware): [http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Trial-2_Software_Release_Note...](http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Trial-2_Software_Release_Notes)

<comment><USER5> I ran it on VMWare maybe 6 months ago. It was ridiculously slow.

<http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OS_images_for_emulation>

<comment><USER6> That tends to be a true statement regardless of the antecedent of "it".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> donate one? donate money to manufacturers?</comment>


Senate committee wants to know how the feds are handling Bitcoin, too - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/senate-committee-wants-to-know-how-the-feds-are-handling-bitcoin-too/

<comment><USER2> "[The subpoena] is extremely broad and onerous....While the [Department of Financial Services] says they want to have a conversation with the industry, their actions speak the language of aggressive litigation."

Sets that expected tone of heavy handed future `presumed guilty' confrontation for any new process remaining beyond wetting their beak or their manipulation to directly corrupt or inflate.</comment>