A Farewell to Go - <AUTHOR> https://www.churchwood.at/posts/a-farewell-to-go/ <comment><USER2> > According to my opinion, a programming language should let a developer use > his or her style. A heavy influence on the programmer's style is okay, but a > fanactic, religious-like enforcement is inacceptable.

As someone who has wasted many hours debating which JavaScript style guide to follow I disagree with this. Go have quite frankly put to bed any debates or arguments over "curly brace on same line or below" by setting a style and having it policed by the compiler. When working in a team it's good to have an official style guide that's enforced, in the long run this is a good thing.

I don't think this was done because Go's developers are opinionated, I think they looked at other languages and seen the mess that can happen when you don't set a style guide and thought "we're not doing that"

<comment><USER3> Also his one example:

> For example placing an opening curly bracket on a new line causes the > compiler to emit a syntax error.

That's actually part of the syntax, not the style. The compiler adds an implicit semicolon at the end of every line, and if there is one before the block of a switch, if, for, etc, then it looks like it's missing (and the next line's curly braces is just a new block.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > According to my opinion, a programming language should let a developer use > his or her style.

Fine if you work on your own. But if you work in a team, whose style do you use? I much prefer Go's "stop wasting time on things that don't matter and just use this style" approach.

<comment><USER5> I am going to chime in and second the team argument here. Being stubborn on style tells me a person is going to be inflexible on a myriad of other things as well.

<comment><USER6> I do not agree. What google did here is to liberate us from style fascists.

<comment><USER7> I dunno. It kind of looks like they just unified everyone against a new style fascist?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > _According to my opinion, a programming language should let a developer use > his or her style._

Please no. Never. moving to enforced styles freed me from having to think and debate about them. I think go set a precedent here that every new language should follow.

<comment><USER9> (good enough & coordinated) >>> ("beautiful" & custom)

I think people underestimate the enormous cost of custom. Once style can be customized it opens up a whole universe of costs: compatibility, learning curve, project onboarding, tooling complexity. These are hours upon hours of human lives that just vanish into the abyss of pointlessness. Not just during the a style debate itself, but the _mental energy_ it consumes at all times when "you know this specific situation would look nicer if we just made this one tweak to the style" is a possibility.

The standardized style is one of the best things about Go and one of the things I miss the most when working in other languages.

The usual thing to say at this point would be "To be fair there are some things I don't like about Go format, but the social benefit is worth it" but I've moved past even that. At this point _I don 't even give a shit about style_. As long as it has _something_ reasonable and it does it automatically. And before you write me off as never caring, I used to be that person that spends hours aligning things until they look just right, adjusting spaces to align mid-line, debating on brace & bracket placement. But it's all garbage now. Just make it good enough to read and get it out of my way.

I don't like playing Microsoft Word layout games in my text editor anymore.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Everytime I read somebody pushing for the Go language, i recall this interesting, funny piece written about it.

[http://cowlark.com/2009-11-15-go/](http://cowlark.com/2009-11-15-go/)

</comment><comment><USER11> EDIT: I don't think its fair to give this blog/author this amount of feedback. Clearly he has no idea what he is doing: [https://github.com/agentS/pq/commit/c8f9125577fc92985e4b85d8...](https://github.com/agentS/pq/commit/c8f9125577fc92985e4b85d84929f449e99255e3)

> According to my opinion, a programming language should let a developer use > his or her style. A heavy influence on the programmer's style is okay, but a > fanactic, religious-like enforcement is inacceptable.

I believe the OP exhibits a fanatic, religious-like enforcement of how he wants to format his code. If he would use gofmt, he would not have this issue:

> For example placing an opening curly bracket on a new line causes the > compiler to emit a syntax error.

Because gofmt will fix it for him.

> The same goes for string concetanations that start on a new line.

Not even sure what OP means here. There are both the `` string escaping for multiple lines, and you can perfectly fine split up expressions over multiple lines, like so:

s := "aaa" +

       "bbb"

> the linter displayed so many warnings due to my code style, that I turned it > off.

Way to go, cowboy.

> Broken Package Management

See gb, govendor, glider etc. Many languages can be critized for the same, but there are solutions. Use them.

> A possible mitigation strategy is shown by the Kubernetes project whose > creatores store their application's dependencies in their repository. > However, this is an anti pattern of using a VCS.

No, this is not an anti-pattern, it is a perfectly valid solution to vendoring dependencies.

> No Inheritance, Missing Generics

Please learn the language better.

> Feature-Lacking HTTP Library

So, use one of the _many_ http libraries around that suits your need better. How many languages even ship a http library in std lib?

<comment><USER12> You have good point. I take issue with only a couple.

> No, this is not an anti-pattern, it is a perfectly valid solution to > vendoring dependencies.

I'm not going t to tell you it won't work, because it will, but this very rarely done, particularly if you use a DCVS like git. When's last time you saw a Java Maven project do this. Almost never. Why? Because there is a very standard, robust way to vendor dependencies.

> Please learn the language better.

How is learning go better going to help you make a useable skiplist? What non- novice wisdom would help out?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm curious about what the author chose instead. Sadly, it is not mentioned in the post (maybe for the better - it'd lead to an inevitable flamewar about Go vs whatever his new choice is).

<comment><USER14> Probably Kotlin :')

<comment><USER6> I believe he is with the Swift/Kitura cult now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Package Management and Generics are the two big ones that I agree with here. Inheritance, when used correctly, is really useful but is too often abused and for that reason alone I cool with it's omission. I'd add that the error handling, while readable, feels a little clunky when I'm writing it.

`if err == nil` (am I right!?)

Importing Gorilla really doesn't seem like it should be a deal breaker however I understand why someone fond of Python would lament not having everything built into the language ;).

</comment><comment><USER16> Dupe has more comments: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14970256](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14970256)

</comment><comment><USER17> Most of the arguments against seem like either personal-taste things or something that will or at least can be fixed in one of the next releases (maybe except inheritance).

<comment><USER18> It might be personal taste, but I'd prefer a language incorporating innovations from the 1980's onwards. I doubt that will be fixed in the next release.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I agree only on the generics thing. The package management is out-of-scope for me. However rudiments of genericity should be there. I do not aim for the full thing.</comment>


Pixel by Google - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rykmwn0SMWU <comment><USER2> Most comments moved to [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12636520](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12636520).

</comment><comment><USER3> Reminds me a lot of this video [1] from Apple that presented the iPhone 7 in 107 seconds...

[1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeoUELDgyM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeoUELDgyM4)

<comment><USER4> I like the apple video more. The music pairing and faster cuts made for a more frenetic experience that is extremely effective at building hype.

<comment><USER5> It was extremely effective at building my confusion about whether they were trying to explain their product, or convince me Tim Cook is super rad.

iPhone whatever: I carpooled here, did you see I know celebrities? I dropped my tiny mic towards the end, too, that's a stage performance thing.

Honestly, the comment elsewhere here about how the Pixel doesn't have a camera sticking out, making it point of contact with any flat surface, matters more to me than just about anything in either video. Maybe I'm not the target demo, but I am upgrading my cell phone soon, so I think I should be?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This video is screaming to me that there is something obnoxious on the top edge of the phone. It is hidden in every camera angle and we see every other edge of the phone.

Anyone know what's there?

<comment><USER7> Here is an image of the top edge: [https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hYE3ZZEpDkaT6PkjmodS4RsYbc...](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hYE3ZZEpDkaT6PkjmodS4RsYbcHY3pjpk- fL3mwb96PldMkUWdGjIxBbcxZdaOMoejY=rw) Nothing obnoxious. Just a 3.5mm jack.

<comment><USER8> Perhaps that's something they should show off in the video :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Nice stab at Apple there with the 3.5 mm jack. Glad they kept it.

<comment><USER10> Yeah, unfortunately it looks very awkward and they're somehow hiding it in all the marketing renders. Why?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is a little underwhelming.

</comment><comment><USER12> The ahem at 0:47 is great ;)

</comment><comment><USER13> Will it blend?

</comment><comment><USER14> > This video is private.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm only seeing:

"This video is private. Sorry about that."</comment>


Skilled Workers May See Green-Card Surge - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jul2007/db20070718_068854.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5 <comment><USER2> Alas, my lawyer explained it to me like this: There is a front door (that allows people to submit paperwork), leading to a back door (that gives people Green Cards). You're already _through_ the front door. All they're proposing is that the front door should be bigger, but they (the USCIS) don't have the resources to process even the people who are already through the front door and push them out the back door. Nobody seems to be proposing more resources so that the USCIS can get people through the system more quickly.

</comment><comment><USER3> Gov & Bush admin. has allowed 30+ million of unskilled, illegal aliens to enter and is fighting for their amnesty and yet they're making it extremely hard for highly skilled people with US college degrees to stay and contribute to job creation. This is an insane policy that needs to change.

</comment><comment><USER4> I admit I have not thought through the political and economical consequences very far, but it seems like skilled workers are a national resource to be treasured. If skilled engineers want to come, I say let them. Better than competing against them.

</comment><comment><USER5> yc may see application surge.

<comment><USER6> Don't think so. YC model is biased towards college students or recent grads. Most of these folks we are talking are already working. They end up moonlighting than going for YC.</comment></comment>


In Kuwait, Instagram Accounts Are Big Business - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2013/07/kuwait-instagram-accounts-are-big-business/67127/

<comment><USER2> I also found it especially interesting how much interaction the religious leaders have on Instagram for the size of Kuwait. For example, [http://instagram.com/mishari_alafasy](http://instagram.com/mishari_alafasy) is the grand Imam of Kuwait. 15K likes for his following size is very impressive when compared to other Instagrammers with similar following sizes.

PS. He shared his profile from my app on his Instagram profile and our app immediately shot up to the top 10 apps in the Kuwait app store, and number 2 in photo and video. Users thanked him, and thanked Allah that he had shown them this new app.

<comment><USER3> FYI, Mishary Al Afasy isn't popular just in Kuwait, he's popular through out the entire Middle East.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is not exclusive to Kuwait. I've seen several of these kinds of storefronts all over South East Asia. People use an app like "Line" to order stuff and communicate payment options . It's really interesting to see how people use social networking in unintended ways.

Most of the stuff that is sold is relatively cheap (< 15$), but trust is still a big problem. In my time there, I always wondered if it would be worthwhile for Facebook to facilitate this by for instance handling the payments, but I don't even know if they knew about this kind of stuff happening.

<comment><USER5> Can you give an example of a country in SE Asia where that sort of commerce is common? I'd have thought that people would opt to use one of the e-commerce platforms, since they provide payment and anti-fraud solutions.

<comment><USER6> Indonesia (and probably Malaysia).

Anti-fraud for e-Commerce is a long way to go. Most people still transfer money via bank using SMS (and they take screenshot of their cellphone for proofs to the seller).

Twitter, Instagram, Line, BBM, WhatsApp, and Facebook are being used for eCommerce.

Most of their customers won't mind if they were "tagged" (in Facebook) by sellers while westerners would complain like there's no tomorrow (and unfriended their friends if the sellers were their friends).

I'm just in awe to see how SE Asia countries are using social media.

<comment><USER7> As an Indonesian, I can concur.

PayPal, etsy, and eBay is like a disease over there. No one wants to deal with third party eCommerce platform. I don't know whether it is because of the cost or other things.

What I know is you can not scale verification of bank transfers once it reaches a certain number.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's exactly for this kind of use-case that we built Bondsy, an app that lets you trade with friends. Doesn't have to be for money.

Check it out, it's free.

[http://www.bondsy.com](http://www.bondsy.com)

<comment><USER8> Why the downvotes? It's not as if this is spam nor unrelated to the article. I think it's quite relevant actually. tagabek just asked why no one has built what we are building.

<comment><USER9> You didn't explain the relevance. "Trade with friends" doesn't clarify.

<comment><USER8> I was hoping that "exactly for this kind of use-case" would explain the relevance.

Bondsy is a mobile app that lets you post beautiful pictures with captions like Instagram. Except that Bondsy is designed specifically for trading and selling stuff, and that lets us help out sellers a lot more than Instagram.

<comment><USER10> I still have no idea what it does.

<comment><USER9> Me either. Something about trading instagram stuff?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This story was totally not what I expected regarding Instagram accounts.

In my Americentric preconceived assumption I thought it would be about _selling_ Instagram accounts, not using them as storefronts.

</comment><comment><USER12> That's kind of cool, considering instagram is free, that makes you a free online store with a very simple process to work with.

Compare that to something like shopify, it's a much simpler product, maybe an e-commerce idea can be taken from this..

<comment><USER13> Kuwait is a tiny country. It's cheaper and quicker to just drive everywhere and pickup your order than wait for delivery.

<comment><USER14> Actually, we get everything delivered pretty quick...another plus side of being a tiny country. Also, its really damn hot...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> s/Instgram/social networks/

I have seen such ad-hoc marketplaces for the middle east and south asia on other social networks being used to sell anything form used furniture, imported goods, or as boutique store fronts. There are even intercity ride share groups.

</comment><comment><USER16> I am curious as to why no one has built a web/mobile app to make this easier for the sellers.

<comment><USER17> My read on this is that the software doesn't matter very much, it's the network. Everyone's on instagram, and so you may as well sell on it. My guess (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Kuwait is very cash based for this stuff, and so things like credit card processing don't matter. If that's the case a picture stream is a pretty good approximation of a store's 'inventory,' and the slight benefit of making this software fit the needs of the seller better would be far outweighed by the fact that they would lose the buyer network.

<comment><AUTHOR> > Kuwait is very cash based for this stuff

also, there is no personal income tax or vat, so they can legally post whatever at any time and any quantity and put 100% of cash straight into the pocket - no need to formalize those transactions, no IRS hunting your instagramic wealth.

<comment><USER16> These are some very enlightening points.

One of the things that I love most about software is how it might end up being used completely different than originally intended. When Kevin Systrom and his team started building Instagram, I bet that they didn't intend to provide a makeshift online marketplace for the people of Kuwait.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Free classified ads. Wonder if this isn't monetizable. Paid "Ads" for higher visibility of your sheep for sale?</comment>


Top Visual Studio Code Extensions for Node.js - <AUTHOR> https://developer.okta.com/blog/2019/05/08/top-vs-code-extensions-for-nodejs-developers <comment><AUTHOR> Hey! I wrote this because I've given lots of introductory talks on Node.js and written a lot of tutorials, and one of the most frequent things I'm asked is the tools I use. If you use VS Code, what are your favorite extensions? If you don't use VS Code, what are your favorite tools for writing Node.js apps?</comment>


Monitor your Website's Uptime with Google Docs - <AUTHOR> http://www.labnol.org/internet/website-uptime-monitor/21060/

<comment><USER2> A cautionary tale: I was using this script for a while. Then Google Docs had some sort of freakout, and began sending me hundreds of "your site is down" emails, even after I tried to terminate the script and even deleted the document from my Google Drive. A few days later, the script finally terminated and the messages stopped.

<comment><USER3> It still annoys me, so I created a filter and it fills up that label now. No more inbox annoyance atleast.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wow.

To paraphrase Babbage, I cannot apprehend the confusion of ideas which could lead someone to think this is a good idea.

<comment><USER5> I've been using this for about six months now and it works great. Is there something bad about this that we should all know?

<comment><USER4> "Bad" is probably a strong word. But issues are:

1\. Reliance on Google Docs' uptime. While any monitoring service will in theory present the same problem, you're putting all your eggs in one basket.

2\. It's just the wrong tool for the job. Install and learn Nagios or Zabbix or what-have-you. If you're worried about uptime, get a couple VPSes from different providers and run your monitors from both.

There's nothing utterly horrifying about it technically, but I just can't imagine how one comes up with this answer to the question of monitoring services.

<comment><USER5> Ok, but as you pointed out, #1 is just as bad as using any other single provider (which isn't implied or suggested anywhere here). I disagree with #2. The results are pretty nice, and they're accessible through Google Docs, which is great for sharing with co-workers who aren't in IT.

For what it's worth, Google Docs isn't our only monitoring system. We use Munin as our primary monitoring tool, but this is a nice addition to that.

<comment><USER4> Ahh, this is different. I'll admit to thinking it's strange, but not insane. Sorry for the quick judgment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've used it and it is pretty mediocre or at times just inaccurate. I get so many false alerts from Google about the site being down that I've turned it off.

As another comment puts it, it's just the wrong tool for the job.

<comment><USER7> I've used a modified version of the script for over a year now and was able to determine unreliable sites with it. Of course there can be temporary server issues and when you try to access the site it works again.

The script I wrote checks multiple sites in one go and sends one mail per script execution, if there are errors. I found that more manageable, the code for it is on GitHub [https://github.com/yaph/sitemonitor](https://github.com/yaph/sitemonitor)

<comment><USER8> I just set this up. Works great! I recommend you run it once from the Run menu to make sure you entered a domain name correctly. You can comment out this line to get an email every time it runs (good for testing):

        // if (status !== 200)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I highly recommend [http://www.uptimerobot.com](http://www.uptimerobot.com) which is a free tool. You can monitor up to 50 sites with 5 min intervals. Very useful email notifications specifying how much time your site was unavailable.

<comment><USER10> +1 for Uptimerobot. I've used it for 2 years or so now and it works great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Why not just use Pingdom which is designed for that?

One thing Docs is good for though is building custom dashboards on a $0 budget. We've got one at [https://starthq.com](https://starthq.com) that shows our key metrics and graphs cohorts for the last few weeks.

<comment><USER12> I'd be interested to know more about what you did with dashboards using Docs.

<comment><USER11> We created a simple API which gives us data ranges such as

\- /:start/:end - number of users registered within date range

\- /:start/:end/active - number of users registered within date range who were active within last week

etc. etc.

Then it's pretty straightforward to use ImportData & CONCATENATE, as well as fill down to create a matrix of cohorts, which can in turn be graphed.

In general it's best to pull in the raw data with ImportData and then calculate percentages and such in the spreadsheet. The latter are updated when the cells they reference refresh.

Docs refreshes ImportData sources once every hour, caching them in between, so the load on the server and DB is minimal and you end up with more or less current stats.

<comment><USER12> Any chance you could email me to discuss? My email is in profile. Or PM on twitter if you prefer?

<comment><USER11> No email in your profile. Messaged you via Twitter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is awesome, in the sense that I am in awe that google lets you do this. Could you create a shareable doc to create a google powered DDOS of a site? Hypothetically, of course.

<comment><USER14> someone already did it, and to himself :D

[http://www.behind-the-enemy-lines.com/2012/04/google- attack-...](http://www.behind-the-enemy-lines.com/2012/04/google-attack-how-i- self-attacked.html)

<comment><USER15> Interesting read. Also, good on Amazon for the P.S at the end: "Amazon was nice enough to refund the bandwidth charges [...] as they considered this activity accidental and not intentional."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm pleased to see people showing off what you can do with Google docs. I think most people (and even most developers) totally underestimate what's possible with Google Apps Script.

A great example of what is possible using Spreadsheets to do live dashboards and analysis of site data. If you use Heroku you can pump data directly from Heroku Dataclips into a Google spreadsheet using a live CSV URL and then analyse, munge and display it however you like.

Apps Script can both consume send data to other web services so coupled with Heroku Dataclips or Chartio.com it's super powerful. It's a great way to skip a lot of UI work or even for someone with business savvy but no official programming skill to get directly into their database and spelunk around.

</comment><comment><USER17> This is pretty cool. The google calendar event to create texts seems like a hack though (even more-so than the rest of it). Is there any reason this couldn't just use the SMS gateways that pretty much every carrier offers?

</comment><comment><USER18> I have tested this in the past, and a few clients on the service I launched last year ([https://servercheck.in/](https://servercheck.in/)) have also reported the same: Google Docs is unreliable at best. Besides false positives, there were at least two or three outages (sometimes for an hour or more) unreported.

Google Docs is not meant to be a status monitoring tool. Use the right tool for the job; there are plenty of free and cheap alternatives that do things much better, are more reliable, and save you setup and maintenance time.

</comment><comment><USER19> I wrote something like this a few months ago.

Depending on Google Spreadsheet for uptime monitoring is nothing more than just a fun hack. I'm surprised that some people here are taking it so seriously. If you're using a script like this, then I hope it's just to keep those single dynos from falling asleep :)

It's also subject to Google Docs availability, my script sometimes fails to run with only a "We're sorry, a server error occurred. Please wait a bit and try again." email notification.

</comment><comment><USER20> I've hacked something similar with ethercalc (npm install ethercalc) and you should too because you never know when google will sunset your favorite feature..

(RIP reader)

</comment><comment><USER21> Interesting spreadsheet hack, but it's just looking for a 200 response. I use Pingdom, which allows you to look for specific content in the response, even on the free plan. It's a better guarantee that the page rendered successfully end-to-end.

</comment><comment><USER22> I would love to use this, but the app wants access to all of my spreadsheets at any time. It looks like I'll need to set up a dummy Google account first.

It looks really cool.

</comment><comment><USER23> Noon question: couldn't you just write a simple script to do the same thing and set up a cron job on a free hosting service like GApps instead?

</comment><comment><USER24> You're checking for a status 200, but what about sites that use 301 redirects or proxies?

<comment><USER25> If you're using it to check _your own_ site, presumably you know what the target of any 301 is beforehand, and can aim at that URL in the first place. Even if you're using a proper monitoring system, why force your server to handle twice the number of requests than it needs to?

<comment><USER26> It still blows me away when I go to a root domain and get redirected to example.com/home or something similar. Or sites that append slashes to all URLs, but the content links to the slash-less copy, forcing every click to hit the server twice. Gah!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Love it - there is something very nice about having to setup a site monitor in a minute..

</comment><comment><USER28> I really like this solution. Makes monitoring a BUNCH of sites really, really easy.

</comment><comment><USER29> um. i'm curious why using this results in a high false positive rate. google docs has dodgy connectivity??? would checking if yahoo.com is up first, before checking each url, reduce the false positives?

</comment><comment><USER30> Why exactly does need this app access to all my data at google?

Scary

</comment><comment><USER31> I was held back by the amount of permissions it requires

</comment><comment><USER32> You're asking for a lot of permissions, huh? ... Why you need to Manage my calendar ?

<comment><USER24> I assume because, AFAIK, SMS notifications are handled by Google Calendar. So to give you the warning it makes an event with an SMS reminder that contains the warning as its topic</comment></comment>


Nomic - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic <comment><USER3> If there is one thing that the "internet" has lost, it's games like this. I used to love playing #wolfgame on IRC. Even Ultima Online (although hardly a typical heritage game) definitely shaped the way MMORPGs evolved.

Anyway, back onto Nomic. After reading the Wiki and seeing the "Initial Rule Set" [1] then reading through a lot of the archives it became clear that "chaos" and administration was the downfall of this game.

Eventually, the constitution that formed became so unmanageable and untrackable that it was impossible to progress. Judges were needed to resolve the rule disputes on every single vote and rule loop-holes were hard to spot (albeit an intended point of the game).[2]

But guess what we have now... Freaking version control. Companies/governments are tracking their constitution on GitHub at the moment, so why can't we also track the constitution of games such as this on GitHub as well. Last month GitHub launched their "create a game" contest that incorporated some form of "Pull"/"Push" feature into the game.

Well how incredibly awesome (I'm getting giddigy as I type this), would it be if we implemented Nomic voting rules using pull requests (for the votes), and have contributors sign up if they want to play the game.

Tracking the constitution changes was clearly the biggest technical challenge back in 1990s, and now we have tools to solve this problem totally.

GitHub makes Nomic awesome.

Ps. Ultima Online just made me feel all nostalgic. I miss West Brittania Bank, Felucca, my 24x24 Stone Keep (presumably fallen and reclaimed now) and my enormous Runebook library.

        [1] : http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/nomic.htm#initial%20set

        [2] : http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/a/

<comment><USER4> I just created a GitHub repo with the initial ruleset in Markdown format.

<http://github.com/johndbritton/nomic>

If you want to start a new game, you can fork the repo and begin accepting pull requests from your players. You can also see a listing of active games by checking out the network tab.

<https://github.com/johndbritton/nomic/network>

<comment><USER5> I made a simplified german ruleset for playing it with some friends. Tried to translate it to english in a branch:

<https://github.com/beza1e1/nomic/blob/english/rules.md>

It also starts of with a "dictator" in the beginning, which removes judgements and should make it easier for beginners. Players can bring back the judges anyways.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A college friend named Zach Barth was incredibly into this sort of thing, a game where the rules and units were made up as the game progressed. He tried quite a few times to make such a game, usually called infini-something such as Infinitron[1] and later Infinarena. The [1] link talks a lot about the challenges that came up trying to make such a game and I think its a neat read if you're into this sort of thing.

It's very understandable why these sort of games don't take off very often, as Z. writes in the [1] link on What Went Wrong:

> Unfortunately, the things that made the Infinifranchise great are the same > things that made them alienating and, at times, ridiculous. _It's very hard > to be creative on demand,_ which can lead to games that are draining and not > terribly spectacular if the players aren't in the groove. As a result, the > games tended to have a limited audience and be overly complicated, although > this is most definitely also a consequence of me.

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--

Zach is also the guy who made Infiniminer[2], the sandbox mining game, and if it looks like a precursor to Minecraft, that's because it was.

I haven't talked to him in a while but Zach these days mostly makes indie engineering puzzle games, you should really check them out[3].

[1] [http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/?p=6...](http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/?p=629)

[2] [http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/?p=7...](http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/?p=713)

[3] <http://www.zachtronicsindustries.com/>

<comment><USER7> He also made SpaceChem, which is possibly one of the greatest games of all time. I can't recommend it strongly enough. There's a demo on his site and steam. Go try it.

(OK, one caveat - programmers/logic puzzle types may like this game more than the average member of the public.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> There's a commercial game similar to this called Flux. It's not as free-form (there are cards with rule changes pre-printed on them), but it is easier to play with a group of new users.

One of the primary results--obvious to programmers but perhaps not obvious to the general public--is how easy it is for rules to interact in unexpected ways, often producing ambiguous gameplay which may go unnoticed by players for significant lengths of time.

<comment><USER9> Not to be contrarian, but flux is nothing like nomic. Rules in flux don't interact in unexpected ways (there are a few variables that change, notably, draws per turn, maximum hand size, and win conditions which are generally what cards you have out in front of you in order to win) but the player has no freedom to make up new rules on her own.

<comment><USER10> A much better game is Bartok (sometimes called Bartog) - it starts out as something approximating Uno[1]. Each time someone wins, they make a rule.

Playing it with Mathematicians/CS types is brain-hurty (think mod-13 arithmetic and prime numbered cards behaving differently).

\---

[1] Some of the different rules:

\- If you ask a question, you get a 1 card penalty

\- If you have one card and don't say "bartok", you get your hand made back up to 7.

\- We played with a bunch of broken decks all smushed together, so you couldn't count cards.

<comment><USER11> That is the same as Mao.

<comment><USER12> Taking our glorious leader's name in vain!

<comment><USER13> The Chairman's game.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> BlogNomic has been mentioned, but here's a gratuitous plug for Agora Nomic, which is currently suffering from lack of interest (and could use a few more players) but is arguably the oldest still-living true nomic. The game sometimes has "actual gameplay" and sometimes doesn't really, but in practice mainly revolves around the rest of the rules - over 100 of them - <USER2> things like multiple privilege levels for rules, a court to decide questions and punish rulebreaking, assets that you can give someone to let them act on behalf of you, a bill of rights, offices, and, of course, proposals, all of which is written in a rather formal and pedantic style that's nevertheless the subject of much debate over interpretation. The whole thing somehow feels like maintaining a computer program written in English, and perhaps for that reason, many players are programmers; as a particular example, one valid way to play is to find bugs in the rules and try to exploit them to force through a proposal granting you a (temporary) dictatorship, which is like nothing so much as computer hacking. It's bizarrely fun.

<http://agoranomic.org>

The ruleset: <http://agora.qoid.us/current_flr.html>

An example call for judgement: <http://cfj.qoid.us//1892>

<comment><USER10> _> Agora Nomic, which is currently suffering from lack of interest_

And deservedly so. I started playing once, and got chosen to be a judge. After a couple of hours reading the rules I passed judgement, and promptly got shot down/counter judged. Apparently I was _technically_ correct, but there were a whole swag of "customary rules" which weren't written down anywhere.

If you're not going to play by the rules as written, what's the point?

<comment><USER14> Not sure when this was, and I guess this may be very belated, but I'm sorry you had that experience. Nowadays at least, although the text of the rules is interpreted much more literally than any real law system, and the policy is always to follow it where it is clear, vagueness in the rules is often interpreted in a convenient way, and there _is_ quite a lot of (often ignored) precedent to deal with it, so it takes time to understand them. On the other hand, the CFJ system doesn't always get it right (in quite a few instances, later cases have struck down precedent without any particular reason that the answer should have changed - some cases are paid more careful attention than others, and sometimes emotion affects it in the case of scams), and often facts that seem completely self-evident to one person end up getting disputed (I've had this happen to me and observed it in others). I've learned through experience that it's best to avoid taking adverse judgements personally or getting ticked off about what seems to be misguided judging, especially if you're trying a scam.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Just typed out a long story about playing Nomic once...and then deleted it.

I think I should get an upvote or two for sparing all of you the details. ;-)

<comment><USER16> I would have preferred the story.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> It sounds like "Calvinball".

<http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_and_Hobbes#section_6>

<comment><USER18> It was my first thought as well ;) But the article doesn't do the comic strip justice.

[https://lh3.ggpht.com/_zRSvuGbL2L0/TE0I0GlkcTI/AAAAAAAAAg4/k...](https://lh3.ggpht.com/_zRSvuGbL2L0/TE0I0GlkcTI/AAAAAAAAAg4/kpmU0AfcOAA/s1600/Calvinball+5-27-90.jpg)

[http://littlebobeep.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/05/Calvinbal...](http://littlebobeep.com/wp- content/uploads/2010/05/Calvinball1.gif)

<comment><USER19> Thanks for making my evening.

<comment><USER20> This was also my initial thought. Mao as well...

<comment><USER21> Mao was my first thought too.

I'll admit that my second thought was the "make a rule" rule of Kings...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've been interested in this idea of games with modifiable rules on and off, but something about the voting aspect doesn't appeal to me that much. Not entirely sure why. I like the self-referentiality of the rules being modifiable, but it just being a vote, "what rule change do you want?", feels unsatisfying.

I'm not sure what to replace it by, admittedly. I did one experiment where instead of _saying_ what the rules were, your actions were taken as an example of what you thought the new rules should be: if you did something not previously legal, it was inferred to now be legal [1]. But that just led fairly quickly to chaos, unless it were carefully restricted. So maybe not the right approach either. But I still like the idea that the game-mechanics changes themselves are related to the game mechanics in a cybernetic-feedback- loop kind of way, rather than a completely "outside the system" free vote. Now as to how to implement that in a way that makes for a playable/interesting game...

[1] <http://www.kmjn.org/notes/reflexive_rules.html>

<comment><USER23> My friends and I used to occasionally play a card game called Mao. The winner of each round (the first to get rid of the cards in their hand) could make up a new rule governing game play for following rounds. But they didn't announce their rule, instead punishing players who broke it by giving them an extra card. By watching the punishments, you had to try to work out their rule so you could avoid breaking it.

With the right group, it was quite fun, if rather tiring. You need to not take winning too seriously, because it's quite easy to make up a complex rule no- one will ever get - one of my friends had 'you may not play a prime number card on another prime number card'.

<comment><USER24> Mao belongs to a class of games called inductive reasoning games. They're mostly crap, but there are a few gems. IMO the best one of the bunch is Zendo where one player makes up a rule that determines whether a grouping of playing pieces is valid or not (usually played with Treehouse pieces, but e.g. a limited selection of lego pieces can also work). The other players then basically need to use an experimentation / induction loop to determine the rule. This can be really fun in a hackerly group. And once the players get experience, it's surprising how complicated rules are solveable.

The story of the Zendo design process is a great read: <http://www.koryheath.com/games/zendo/design-history/>

<comment><USER15> Zendo is great - I played it again with my nine year old godson last weekend when he was here having a sleep over.

Tangentially: this kid is an awesome proto-nerd, and I fully expect that he'll be posting at HN in another 6 to 8 years - for the last two years he's wanted to program a computer game, and I told him that he and I would learn HTML5 and JS together when he turns 10. We've already got the domain name picked out.

If you haven't engaged with an intellectually precocious kid, you can't imagine how fun and rewarding it is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Linked to from the Nomic article was this:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_mutable_rule...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_with_mutable_rules)

which I find fascinating.

</comment><comment><USER25> Mornington Crescent.

<comment><USER26> And also Mao [1], which has been an unbelievably source of entertainment

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_(card_game)>

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> The book that this game originates in ("The Paradox of Self Amendment") is actually a very delightful and thought-provoking book. If you're into self- amending systems (law, software, etc), you may enjoy reading it. It's all available online here: <http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/psa/>

</comment><comment><USER28> BlogNomic is a nomic game that has been running since 2003. When someone "wins", they reset the rules and being a new "dynasty". New players are welcome, but most players have been playing for a very long time so the rules get quite tricky.

<http://blognomic.com/>

</comment><comment><USER29> We played a game of Nomic once in high school. One of the rules, quickly amended, was that rules needed to be in a specific meter. It wasn't dactylic hexameter, but I've forgotten which now.

We got bored with it after a couple of hours, so we passed a rule that would finish the game at the end of the round. I still had a chance to propose a rule, which was something like "We will raze all scores. After the vote, each person's scores will be raised by 10 points." Raze/raise are homonyms with roughly opposite meanings, and the rule proposals were written down but only read out loud for discussion and vote. It passed.

Yes, I'm still rather proud of that rule.

</comment><comment><USER30> A game that is similarly free-form, albeit less chaotic, is Eleusis. It is played with cards, and each round one person chooses a secret pattern, and the other players play cards, which are identified as correct or incorrect, and they try to figure out the pattern. So there are meta-rules about how the game is played, but the rules for "correct" cards change every game. It seems like a game many HNers would enjoy.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusis_%28card_game%29>

</comment><comment><USER10> Now if you _really_ want to bend your brain, go look up PerlNomic ;)

</comment><comment><USER31> Ah, I remember playing an online game of Nomic back in high school. Someone actually keeps an archive of dead Nomic games, so the eye-bleeding '90s web design is still alive: <http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/macronomic/>. I take full credit for the painful color scheme. All static HTML hand-edited in BBEdit; I think I had a bunch of macros defined to help make it easier to maintain.

</comment><comment><USER32> I just lost _The Game_ \- <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)>

</comment><comment><USER33> Reminds me of Lisp...

</comment><comment><USER34> Tried, for years, to get my lawyer friends to explain to me the legal system(s) in terms of Nomic rules, but they find it difficult to abstract law.

</comment><comment><USER35> How about a drinking game variant of Nomic: add an immutable rule that every rule must somehow contain a reference to drinking.

<comment><USER36> Apparently that's what 21 is. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_(drinking_game)>

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The wikipedia page is said to describe a game, although it rather looks like a description of Switzerland's political system.

<comment><USER38> Why not any tax related political system in real life ;-) ?

<comment><USER37> I was talking about direct democraty, not taxes. Political systems where citizens propose laws that are voted by citizens, and where citizens propose to suppress laws and make all citizens vote on this suppression, by example.

<comment><USER38> Well, you left place for interpretation ;-) I was thinking that you were talking about rules that are constantly changing because of democratic process and that they are most clearly visible in tax area.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Interesting concept, I might try it.</comment>


Wolfram Alpha and Screen Scraping - <AUTHOR> http://negatendo.net/blog/2009/05/16/wolframalpha-and-screen-scraping/ <comment><USER2> Interesting except that the text is in the alt tags of the images</comment>


The Days They Changed the Gauge (1966) - <AUTHOR> http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html

<comment> D-Coder "...crews of various sizes charged with various goats" \-- should be "goals". That really threw me for a bit.

<comment><USER2> I read that and thought, "I didn't know goats were such good work animals!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> There are still some seriously annoying gauge incompatibilities in the world. The biggest one is that Russia and the CIS states use a metric gauge, incompatible with both Western Europe and China. The UK and Europe still use crappy link and pin couplers from the 19th century on freight equipment, which is just insane at this late date. Somebody has to climb in between cars to couple them, and car and train sizes are limited because the coupler design is weaker than the US AAR coupler or Russian couplers.

<comment><USER4> In Spain they have variable-gauge trains. The train is driven slowly across the junction; each bogie has various projections that are engaged by control rails to take the weight off the wheels, unlock the wheels, slide them to the new gauge, and lock them in place again. Pretty surprising. Has been in service since 1969.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> _wheel trucks being changed at interchange points as necessary_

This is still done in trains between China and North Korea, maybe other places, to accomodate for different gauges.

<comment><USER6> Some trains between Spain and France have a variable gauge. It takes some time to pass the gauge changer, but you can remain seated.

[wikipedia]([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge))

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I thought this was going to be about the GWR in Britain (e.g. [http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/RailSteam/GWRBroadG/BGHist.h...](http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/RailSteam/GWRBroadG/BGHist.html) ). Again the big conversion was made over a single weekend.

<comment><USER5> See also "H Day" when Sweden switched from left to right drive. Retrofitting/replacing buses with doors on the other side was one of the biggest expenses.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H)

<comment><USER8> Reading this link, it seems that accidents and fatalities were substantially reduced for some time after the switch, due to extra caution being exercised by all drivers.

The lesson: Switch the standard every couple of years or so.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> And here I thought it was really cool when I migrated a 1GB database from MySQL to Postgres.

</comment><comment><USER10> Wayback link: [https://web.archive.org/web/20140707014414/http://southern.r...](https://web.archive.org/web/20140707014414/http://southern.railfan.net/ties/1966/66-8/gauge.html)

</comment><comment><USER11> Ok, did anyone else notice the reference to "John Gault"? I know it is spelled slightly differently by Ayn Rand, but I found it amusing none the less. Probably just my brain miss-firing. lol

From the article:

"One farsighted man rose on the Convention's second day to ask that the gauge- size decision be reconsidered. He was John C. Gault, general manager of the Cincinnati, New Orleans & Texas Pacific, and he made some persuasive arguments:"

</comment><comment><USER12> Three providers forced to improve speeds because of competition... where have I heard this before?

<comment><USER13> That's not quite an accurate summation--the issue was that handoff between incompatible standards caused delays, and had to be fixed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> I thought this was really interesting to read, because it hinted to me that with enough buy-in... that even a physically embedded and implemented standard _can_ change if enough effort is put in. This gives me hope for some digital standards and updates</comment>


The SIM-less Phone Is Coming. And It Should Scare The Shit Out Of You - <AUTHOR> http://shkspr.mobi/blog/index.php/2012/05/the-sim-less-phone-is-coming-and-it-should-scare-the-shit-out-of-you/

<comment><USER3> In short, Apple is becoming an MNVO. With Mobile Network Virtual Operators, you don't know which carrier your connection is actually going over.

Apple is signaling to the rest of us that the "dumb pipe" future which carriers are facing is quickly approaching.

None of us will care who provides the future 4G/5G/6G connection; we'll just go with the cheapest carrier at the time. Apple here is just streamlining this process so their customers won't have to waste their time and money figuring it out, and they probably won't be alone in offering this type of service to the public.

\---

Edit: The article makes a big deal about not being able to remove the SIM card from your phone. CDMA phones have never had SIM cards - to switch phones with Verizon or Sprint, you have to update which MEID or IMEI (number from the phone) is attached to your account. For many years, we were locked into brand- only phones because they were the only ones in the "allowed" database.

<comment><USER4> I look forward to the moment when I can buy a world-wide subscription from Apple as an MNVO that just works all over the globe without the almost criminal roaming rates and hassles that we currently have.

Earlier this year I was on a trip to Europe and accidentally turned on my iPhone in Paris. It automatically checked my email and I probably reloaded my twitter stream. It was just 700 KB but I was charged a good $25 for that. That roaming rate translates to roughly 35000 CAD/GB.

 _THIRTY-FIVE-THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR ONE GIG OF DATA_

Someone please end this madness. Please let this be Apple.

<comment><USER5> In my experience, Apple actually made this process of "global roaming" worse, not better.

Case in point: I spend about 2 months a year in Japan and a month in London. I live in the US and have a plan through ATT. I used to have an iPhone 3gs, and then a 4 (now a Galaxy Nexus).

The first time I travelled to London with my iPhone, I knew enough to be paranoid about overages and activated my global roaming service and bought 25MB of data coverage just so I could use it in a pinch. ATT customers were supposed to be able to get free WiFi at Starbucks. That turned out to be false. Fortunately, almost every pub in London has free wifi and I tend to spend more time in pubs than Starbucks anyway.

The second or third day I was there I called ATT to try to get them to give me the unlock code so I could swap my US SIM out for one from O2. After about 30 minutes on the phone, I finally got someone who put it plainly, "Sir, if you had any other phone besides the iPhone, we'd be glad to let you unlock your phone so you could use the SIM from the local carrier. But we are under strict orders from Apple not to." I bought a 20£ throwaway Nokia the next day which had a free 30£ top-up with it and used it for the duration of the trip.

I have had similar experiences in Japan, except I have always had a Japanese phone (because I use the NFC-based Suica card for the Metro and in convenience stores). A couple years ago, I needed to be on-call whilst in Tokyo and wanted to be able to answer my iPhone if it rang. Long story short, my iPhone didn't even work in Tokyo ... regardless that the global roaming was turned on (and I was paying for it).

Was in Tokyo from Nov-Jan this last year. Brought my [unlocked] Galaxy S2 I had at the time. Went to Softbank with my wife, and went through the normal procedure of proving citizenship (hers, not mine) etc. to get Japanese rate plans. Also had brought my Japanese phone. SIM swapped into my GS2, worked perfectly. No more global roaming/iPhone drama. Had tried to do similar with iPhone previously, carriers in Tokyo wouldn't touch it. Same thing, "Under strict orders from Apple not to …"

Went back with my Nexus recently. Put SIM from GS2 into Nexus. Worked flawlessly, as unlocked phones have been doing forever. I do not yearn for an Apple-controlled MNVO. a) I like specifically choosing whatever carrier works best for my needs at the time (via a SIM card) b) my experiences roaming with iPhone so far have been much MORE expensive than with any other phone.

Edit: wanted to make it clear that the "unlocked" GS2 was an ATT GS2 which ATT voluntarily gave me the unlock code for when I called and told them I would be travelling with it.

<comment> DanI-S I have a Verizon iPhone 3GS, which I bought specifically so that I could use it in the US and the UK. After three months, which is Verizon's minimum wait period, I called them up and had them unlock the phone for an international SIM. On traveling to the UK, I cut my trusty Orange SIM card down to size and inserted it. Everything worked perfectly.

<comment><USER5> things may be better now. the trip to london I was speaking about was with a 3GS in 2009-2010, and at that point the (sole) carrier in the US (ATT) apparently couldn't offer unlocked service. i could have unlocked it myself and voided the warranty, i guess, but didn't opt to do that at the time.

of course, now americans can just buy unlocked iphones. so problem solved, i guess. remarkably happy with the nexus and don't plan to go back to the iphone, so i guess i won't find out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Article aside, virtualization of the SIM means a few technically joyful possibilities:

* Potentially little more than a software tweak to add UI for automatic SIM swap while roaming. The current best solution for this is a dodgy Chinese dual SIM phone, or that just-before-landing step on the plane when the battery comes out and your phone loses its time, and fires all calendar reminders when switched back on again.

* Potentially user hardware gets a chance to intercept the Ki (subscriber authentication key) as it passes through iTunes. At this point all kinds of interesting things can be done (entirely outside of the mobile network's TOS, of course). Like an app that lets you rent a SIM in a target country for 24 hours, at local subscriber calling rates. While within 10 years Europe's roaming rates will be normalized, this would still be a killer feature for international travel.

Sadly chances are high they'll get this right, and the vSIM will be delivered encrypted to some security module on the handset. Sometimes incompetence is a desirable thing.

<comment><USER7> One nice feature of the iPhone right now (and the Nokia N9, but not any other phones I've used): you can simply hot-swap the SIM without any battery pulling or even rebooting. Just take out the tray, replace the SIM, and pop it back in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If monopoly and charging high tariffs for usage are what Apple wants, they can simply work with a single carrier in a market to achieve them. Apple already had that control before.

Perhaps the more sound reason to go SIM-less is to reduce the barrier to switch, promote competition among mobile carriers and improve the whole user experience.

Don't forget that iPhone only works well with good mobile services. To Apple, the prices are easy to control but the quality of service is not. If virtual SIM is really coming, we could even expect a configuration that allows you to use different operators in different locations or for different purposes (data, voice call or SMS). I believe that this is what Apple is truly interested in.

<comment><USER9> I'd posit that reducing the barrier to switch doesn't improve the whole user experience. Granted Apple would staunchly disagree with me on that. But when I engage in a 2 year contract, that's on the carrier-side. I should be able to use whatever phone I want on that contract. I no longer use an iPhone, but I used to regularly pop the SIM out and put in an old flip phone if I thought I was going to do something that had a high likelihood of breaking my iPhone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> !!FUD ALERT, FUD ALERT!!

This entire article is just your viewpoint on this dressed up as being the facts. Most of it is just completely daft what-ifs. e.g. > If or when Apple go bust – you may be left with a brick. There will be no way to update it. really....?

</comment><comment><USER11> The title doesn't match up with what the article admits: that for the time being it was rejected by the carriers.

<comment><USER12> It's only a matter of time, though, unless regulators step in.

<comment><USER13> I am confused about why regulators should be involved. The purpose of the ETSI is to create mobile industry standards. I think the author would argue that these benefit the consumer.

The main issue with the article isn't its hyperbolic headline, but the fact that the author implies that Apple is introducting their nano-SIM design in order to further lock down devices, when their design is actually more backwards compatible than the ones submitted by Nokia and RIM: [http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/26/2904153/apple-vs- nokia-4ff...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/26/2904153/apple-vs-nokia-4ff- nano-sim/in/2666951)

<comment><AUTHOR> (I'm the author) I don't think that the nano-SIM is going to lock down devices any more than the micro-SIM. I'm saying that while everyone is battling it out over that standard, Apple will introduce their "Virtual SIM". Possibly as a last resort if their standard doesn't make it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> How about apple wanting to create a more user friendly experience. Buy several devices and instantly switch your single virtual sim around through web, iTunes or the device. Sounds good to me. Apple proved they can control the telco's with or without the virtual sim.

<comment><USER15> I really like this idea. I've been considering an iPad and I'd love to tether it to my iPhone's data plan. I'm on Verizon. Unless I pay the tethering tax I can't do it without jail breaking. If I can take my data plan and apply it to any device that I own that'd be great. I'm one person, why should I need two data plans?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I see this as progress. Yes, Apple could use the SIM-less phone to control everything and that would be bad.

But this also means we could have "unlocked" SIM-less phones where I could swap networks freely.

I never understood SIM cards: what I want is to use Orange like I use Skype. That is, input an user and password and presto! If I want to switch over to Vodafone, input my Vodafone credentials and that's it.

<comment><USER17> Vodafone SIM _is_ your Vodafone login and password, and it is the same with any other operator. And with the problems we are facing with PKI right now, it might as well be the most practical way to do it, since MITM on mobile network would have been a night mare.

Then again, it probably isn't the most practical way, the technology is old and the encryption broken.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Maybe I'm too trusting, but I can't imagine Apple would provide a worse experience than I've had with AT&T for the last few years.

Also, I'm pretty certain that even if Apple controlled the "virtual-SIM" card, there would still be hackers jailbreaking and unlocking the devices to make them work on other networks. So, I'm not too scared.

</comment><comment><USER19> > For now, the operators are on the side of consumers against manufacturers. > But it only takes one to start us down that slippery slope.

Are you sure that's how you feel about it? I'd say Apple is on the side of consumers, against operators that are notoriously anti-consumer.

<comment><USER20> Apple is on e side of a certain kind of consumer. The kind that gets confused by choice (since you might make the wrong one).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This may be true in the USA, but in my country it's illegal to lock a phone to a single provider.

You buy a SIM card. You stick it in a phone. Viola. So SIMless phones would have to be supported by the networks. I would imagine that they're all working on it.

</comment><comment><USER22> \- I can't find any relevant information on the "O2 was really just Apple as MVNO" bit from the article - I have never heard this and if it's true I'd live to read more

\- Apple didnt just create the Micro-SIM to lock you in to the iPhone 4 -- since day 1 (American) carriers have had access to stockpiles of SIM cards and can very easily swap you to a normal sized one if need be. Literally, it has never been difficult.

\- If Apple really wants the Virtual SIM, why are they feinting with heavy tactics like saying they'll license the Nano SIM for free to anyone that wants it should it become the next spec? Hardly seems like the strategy to put behind your losing prospective.

</comment><comment><USER23> At the end of the day the iPhone is a consumer electronic. You vote with your dollar (or euro). Apple has a product and a set of constraints they will dictate. If you don't want it, you don't buy it. It isn't like you would die without a smartphone.

<comment><USER24> Not that I disagree, but the argument against this is often: consumers are idiots. Most people have no idea about the finer details of "problems" like this one and so will completely ignore it when making their purchase. If the iPhone meets all their needs but does secret voodoo to carriers on the back end, consumers are losing -- sometimes long after they've voted with their dollar.

Hence: regulators.

<comment><USER25> Well you said it - the carriers are loosing, not the consumers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> What a load of crap. Most of this article isn't even true. Last time I checked, Apple could care less how much data is used. The only reason FaceTime is wifi only is because of the carriers.

</comment><comment><USER27> This sounds ideal to me! Let's think of some other possible pros, since the author hasn't seemed to bother:

Stolen phones can't be used. No changing SIMs when you travel No roaming fees! One bill for cell usage and purchases Apple's excellent customer support, full-stack

\- to name a few. The main point is, the user doesn't have to mess around with installing a SIM card. In my opinion, the SIM is a holdover from a previous status quo, - we accept it because we've never known an alternative.

<comment><USER25> I believe it should be possible to virtually route the calls to whatever numbers you've decided - let's say you have one personal and one business number. However, you can switch of the business number when you leave the work, or limit incoming calls for personal number only to close family members, etc.

Besides, phone numbers are obsolete as well. I think this virtualisation should give possibility to move away from them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I think the operators should stay focused on what they do the best - <USER2> and updating infrastructure. It shouldn't be their job to provide the marketing for device, service or even apps. However, since they are the owners of this massive usage data, they can comprehend in a most accurate way what is the customer like and what does it want. They have the best metrics to measure how the customer responds to marketing, etc. But bottom line is that I just want my phone to work. I don't care what network it runs, I want it to WORK. I don't want to pay less for something that doesn't work (surprise surprise Lycamobile doesn't cater 3G for iPhone 4S). I don't want to pay for ridiculous unlimited 100000 minutes and 100000000 texts per month. However, I do want to pay for 1 Gb monthly data, and a sensible amount for 5 calls I make per month (heh, try that - O2 PAYG single call or text price is close to the european roaming charges...) And the last thing I want to pay is extra charges for using VoIP (TeliaSonera). So for me, operators are not on my side. I am always in lose-lose situation.

</comment><comment><USER28> Apple-bashing aside, in the US, we already have this problem. We call them CDMA phones. They're locked to networks, aren't portable in any way (if they have a SIM slot for GSM use, it can't be used domestically), and they're typically worth a lot less on resale.

</comment><comment><USER29> My understanding of what Apple is likely trying to do with a SIM-less phone is allow you to choose your carrier and change it at any time directly from your phone, without needing to seek out a little piece of plastic and a paperclip.

When I went to Europe this summer with my 3G iPad, it was difficult in some cities to find a place to even buy a SIM card (let alone a paperclip to use to eject the SIM tray). Since my iPad is unlocked, it seemed to be a bit ridiculous that I even had to go through this. My device should just do a network scan, see what networks are available, and let me compare the plans (price/data) and choose one directly from my device.

</comment><comment><USER30> If Apple are really planning a move like this we have to consider their other actions. FaceTime, Messages. I don't think we need to worry about roaming or numbers. All we'd have is data ...

</comment><comment><USER31> This sounds like a European feeling terrified of the experience every Verizon customer already has. He even says so:

"I dread the future where devices are locked down like American CDMA phones. No choice other than what the manufacturer demands. Gone will be the days of choosing the right phone and the right price-plan. You'll take the service you're given and will have to put up with it."

</comment><comment><USER32> A SIM-less network will have to developed sooner or later. If we are to connect n * 10 billion devices to the mobile network the amount of gold used for the SIM cards will become an issue. So removing the need for a SIM, and thus the gold used, will be neccessity.

But most likely this will be driven through the "normal" standardization committees (3GPP etc) instead of coming from Apple.

</comment><comment><USER33> SIM = Evil. Takes up precious battery space! Door makes edge of phone non- smooth. Internal mechanism adds to cost of goods and manufacturing. Overall non-green. Simply anachronistic.

</comment><comment><USER34> I don't think the EU will like this.

They seem to have a lot of sane opinions about such things at the moment.

</comment><comment><USER35> Didn't Japan have SIM-less phones like 20 years ago? Don't recall if they were tied to a single network though.

<comment><USER35> According to this article they were locked and one couldn't purchase a SIM separately. So no, they weren't SIM-less. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_industry_in_Japan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_industry_in_Japan#NTT_DoCoMo)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Don't get scared. Get Android.

Don't do business with a company designed to take advantage of you. Problem solved.

</comment><comment><USER37> This seems extremely conspiratorial and likely wrong.

iPhones can already be locked to a carrier. Whether the SIM card is virtual is irrelevant. If the carriers want to screw you, they already have means to do so.

In fact, I suspect a phone with a virtual SIM card may be easier to unlock than a physical one since Apple must distribute software designed to program the virtual SIM card. You also won't need to physically get a SIM card to use a network and you'll be able to use multiple networks with the same phone. That sounds like a plus to me.

Regardless, the SIM card is certainly not the limiting factor in carrier portability or locking. It's essentially a floppy disk, and is quite unnecessary given data connectivity these days.

The idea that Apple wanted a smaller SIM as a step closer to no SIM is ridiculous. What difference does the size make? Having a card or not having a card is binary.

</comment><comment><USER38> Apple has already made a SIM-less iPhone before, for Verizon. But whatever, I'm sure that doesn't fit in with this goofball's doomsaying. What a shitty piece of FUD.

<comment><USER32> The Verizon iPhone was running on 3GPP2/CDMA network, this does not have SIM card. It is the 3GPP (note the missing 2) track that uses SIM cards. The 3GPP track is the most common track outside North America where the CDMA was strong. For 4G it looks like a total walk over for LTE though, LTE comes from the 3GPP track.

The 2G/3G/4G evolution for 3GPP looks something like this (sorry for the alphabet soup) : GSM->WCDMA->LTE</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What do you think of the new Microsoft surface? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> I think that over the course of many many years I have learned to hold my opinions of Microsoft announcements until a bit after the product actually ships and has seen real-world scenarios.

The Microsoft marketing videos and events have traditionally done a poor job of conveying what the finished product will _actually_ look like and do, or even if there will ever be an actual finished product at all.</comment>


Why did HN go down at 5.40 pm ET? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> I restarted the server.</comment>


Computing with Transistors: The Digital State - <AUTHOR> http://www.gibiansky.com/2012/11/the-digital-state.html

<comment><USER2> Ah yes, this brings me back to the microcomputer engineering class I took before finishing my undergraduate degree. We had to design a fairly simple 16-bit processor, and I remember deciding to go with a microcoded approach - but you have to start somewhere, and our class started pretty much where this article does. It's remarkable how these very fundamental concepts can be used to create such complex, high-speed, and interactive systems.

I also think it's both scary and amazing to think how far we've come in the past 70-ish years of computing history - all stemming from these very concepts (boolean logic, binary math, and finite state machines).</comment>