Apple Unveils The iPhone 5S - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/10/apple-unveils-the-iphone-5s/ <comment><USER3> Now that we have to consider the iPhones to be backdoored by the NSA, I wonder whether I really want to give them my fingerprint together with the rest of my data. I'm also not so sure whether a fingerprint can't still be easily faked (like it was possible on that Mythbusters episode for example).

Personally, I think I'd rather stay with my passcode.

Did you btw know that you can turn off "simple passcode" and then use a purely numeric longer passcode? In that case the iPhone will still show the big easy- to-hit numeric keyboard allowing you to type in the arbitrary length numeric code.

Yes. It's not as safe as a long alphanumeric password, but this gets annoying SO quickly, I'd rather type in my 8 digits.

<comment><USER4> Urgh. When do we get to the point where I can read HN without a snarky NSA comment being voted to the top?

<comment><USER5> Probably when the NSA stops illegally spying on the citizens it is supposed to serve.

<comment><USER6> More snark. This isn't helpful.

For those who want to believe it, I doubt there is any amount of information that could ever be released to convince them that the NSA _isn 't_ spying on people anymore.

<comment><USER5> I'm not snarking at all. I'm observing that comments about the NSA are entirely _apropos_ given the current climate we live in. Yes, you're right, at this point, it would take something extremely radical to convince us that the NSA isn't spying on us anymore. Therefore, we should expect comments about the NSA and spying to become a part of the common dialog regarding technology and personal information. Asking them to go away is just asking people to stick their head in the sand and ignore it.

The comments will go away when the issue goes away. The issue isn't going to go away. Therefore, don't expect the comments to, either. Welcome to the world we now live in.

<comment><USER7> But you are accomplishing absolutely nothing here. Being annoying and ineffective doesn't help your cause. Do you know that Jesus loves you and he wants to save your soul?

You might as we'll be discussing religion or politics here. This is not the place. I heard your warning the first ten times.

<comment><USER5> We're talking about it, aren't we? We haven't forgotten this issue, distracted like children by the latest shiny toy. Even in the face of the things that traditionally kill news stories, we're talking about it.

Change starts by making enough people aware of and angry about the issue that the politicians can't afford to support these programs any more. If we're just distracted the next time $TECH_TOY or $NATURAL_DISASTER comes along, then nothing at all will change.

I don't particularly care if people find my anger at the NSA's systemic intrusion of our privacy annoying. I care more about that particular issue than I do what a random person on the internet whom I've never met might think of me. I care more about keeping you talking about the issue than I do about you liking me.

<comment><USER8> Look HN is not a US-only site.

For those of us in the other 200 odd countries it really is boring as hell to have to wade through your pointless, unsubstantiated paranoia.

<comment><USER9> We non-US citizens have even MORE to worry about, because there are no laws to protect us and our privacy. We are open season.

<comment><USER10> If you are in Europe then you may have better enforced laws protecting you. If you are in Africa your government might not have the expertise and resources to spy on you. If you are in China, well...

<comment><USER11> I think he means that it is even easier for the US government to spy on you if you're outside of America, not that your domestic government might.

<comment><USER9> Yes, that is indeed what I meant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hey, not to break up the bash-the-NSA discussion, which is legit and badly needed, but did anyone notice just how bad the fact-checking is in this article? It's terrible.

Error 1: article says the A7 is a "40x CPU performance bump". Wrong; it's 40x over the original iPhone, not over the A6.

Error 2: article says graphics are "56x faster". Same error.

Error 3: article claims the M7 is a motion sensor; it's not. It's a chip which handles data from the various sensors.

Error 4: next paragraph after the first M7 paragraph finally gets it right. Bad editing.

Error 5: Apple didn't skirt the megapixel count for the new sensor as claimed. The new sensor has the same MP count, as was stated.

Error 6: article mentions a "10-shot burst mode". Wrong again. The burst mode is 10 frames per second, but is not limited to any specific number of frames.

Just an incredibly bad job, here.

<comment><USER13> I haven't been able to find a single forum/thread for the Apple announcements today (anywhere) that wasn't completely filled with either:

1) NSA flaming

2) 'lol no 5 inch / 1080p screen' style comments.

3) filled with disappointment that the iphone isnt a whole world more than what has been leaked.

How useful it would be to find a forum where actual on-topic discussion was visible and it was the crap that got filtered out, instead of the other way around.

<comment><USER14> Isn't it fair to be disappointed? They dropped the visual upgrade and introduced dozens of new bugs, forcing developers to put in some serious hours. And the result is what?

The best feature released is downloading new content in the background. That's wonderful, but not enough. iOS background processes are still crippled, so I can only have an open socket in the background if it's part of a VoIP app. And for some reason the VoIP flag also signals that I want the app to run on startup?

I don't see why we should care about iPhones or iOS anymore. The latest upgrade is a fingerprint scanner and it's faster. Ok. The operating system finally drops the idiotic skeuomorphism and lets people share photos with Apple's version of NFC. Includes a 2D game engine. Great. Oh beacons? Wonderful, now we can opt-in to targeted localized advertisements.

I'm more interested in getting a device that doesn't force its requirements inbetween me and my workflow. That means widgets, sideloading, intents, and applications that can edit the same files. Removing the animations or reducing their duration (jailbreak an iPhone, install the Accelerate package, and tell me that isn't a much better experience).

On iOS you still can't even delete their default apps if you don't want them. I thought Apple was supposed to be about style? My old iPod Touch still has a folder full of apps I don't want. And an empty Newsstand.

Apple is for children and the computer illiterate. The only benefit of iOS over Android is that you don't need to be totally vigilant over what you install. But the cost is living in a walled garden under the watchful eye of your nanny. I'm disappointed in iOS and the iPhone. They are becoming increasingly irrelevant. They're going to find that the preferred style changes over time, whereas Android is going to have a technical fan base for quite a while even after the "massive screens" fad dies down.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> When I see Apple putting forward as a key feature the number of bits in their processor in a general public announcement... I'm really feeling the "new" product is not really new. In the past Apple was always laughing at the PC ads boasting processor speed and memory capacity.

<comment><USER16> Smartphone hardware is in the 9th inning. These devices have mostly hit the natural limits of what's achievable for now. Bad for Apple since this effectively levels the playing field.

<comment><USER17> I disagree completely. Perhaps the 9th inning of a preseason game?

Flexible displays are coming soon.

The paths for easy integration with multiple low power wearable peripherals have just been forged, and the area is still in its infancy.

Mobile payments have not fully arrived yet.

The phones are all still in rectangular boxes - something that will look ridiculous in 20 years.

I think there is a lot yet to come hardware-wise.

<comment><USER16> Flexible displays would certainly be neat, but their utility for a cellphone largely escapes me.

Wearable peripherals are a different category, they're not smartphones. Regardless, I dont have terribly high hopes for these future devices.

Mobile payment is _mostly_ not a hardware issue. It's a software issue and a matter of coordination or market forces selecting a standard or two. It's things like THIS that are the next battleground in mobile: services and integration.

They are in rectangular boxes because that shape, for various reasons, happens to be extraordinarily efficient. TV's haven't changed shapes.

I think smartphone hardware is pretty much dead. The major leaps - <USER2> screens (which is so ridiculously underappreciated as an innovation), HD screens, HD cameras, CPU horsepower, nice OS's, voice recognition, blah blah - are behind us. There is a reason that almost all of the best selling smartphones look alike, feel alike, and generally have the exact same feature sets. The differences between each other, in the grand scheme of things, are lamentably minute.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> In most previous Apple iterations, when they release a cheaper/multi-colored version of a flagship product, they also release a new (more premium) product line. This time they didn't. This is disappointing to Americans (hence the drop in share price) but also shows Tim's direction: China. His expertise in the company under Jobs was in supply chains and Asia, and now he is orienting (pun not intended) the company towards Eastern markets.

Disappointing shortsighted shareholders, but in my opinion an absolutely perfect time to buy AAPL: they have huge cash reserves and pushing in to the massive Eastern market with the Gold iPhone will only pad further those cash reserves that that low P/E.

<comment><USER19> "Gold" has much more of an appeal to many Asian populations than the US given that Asia has been the cause of exploding actual gold demand. In the US I know few people with garish gold widgets. However, in Asia where the Apple product is a status symbol, the gold iPhone 5S (not the lump of coal 5C) will certainly bolster the image of the premium version.

<comment><USER20> As much as Asia loves gold they HATE fake gold.

<comment><USER21> Which one is the iphone? It would certainly be easy to have some real gold on it.

<comment><USER22> Speaking as an Indian, "real gold" is the kind you can take to a jewelry shop and sell if things get rough... or exchange for other "real gold".

ie: 22 Karat.

<comment><USER21> Oh, so it has to be solid, not plated? Well what a shame that it's too soft for a phone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Two biggest new things for developers:

* OpenGL ES 3.0 support (things like true HDR rendering, etc. will finally be possible)

* 64-bit support. For most app developers, this will just be a recompile. The tricky part is that any closed-source 3rd party SDKs/libraries/frameworks used will also have to be rebuilt first by their authors.

<comment><USER24> More importantly, what are they talking about when they say 64-bit? The architecture uses 64-bit addresses? The processor uses 64-bit registers? What are the main advantages to current CPUs?

<comment> Tuna-Fish They mean that they are switching to a 64-bit ARM architecture.

Note that the 32->64 bit register and address size increase is by far not the only difference between 32-bit ARM and 64-bit ARM. Aarchv8 (64-bit arm) is effectively a complete clean redesign of the ISA, designed to be modern, fast, and only maintain some backwards compatibility, discarding many signature features of ARM that no longer make sense. Such as predication of everything and free shifts in every instruction.

64-bit ARM should be significantly faster, at least once the compilers catch up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm sad it seems most likely the 5S will be fingerprint _OR_ pin/passphrase to unlock. I can imagine situations at borders or in interactions with police where compelling a fingerprint swipe is physically easier than compelling a passphrase entry, and I think it is also legally easier to compel later.

The ideal would be a 4-8 digit numeric PIN with strong "10 tries and it dies" _plus_ fingerprint, and as a backup, a full length desktop-style passphrase (iCloud passphrase). And maybe some kind of "only works on pre-authorized devices" enrollment system requiring the passphrase to generate local keys, too.

<comment><USER26> Yeah just fingerprint means someone could use your finger to unlock the phone while you're asleep in a cell / drugged / restrained / knocked out.

<comment><USER27> / in the morgue

<comment><USER28> OK everyone, walk back from that ledge. Someone with the resources and motiviation to drug/kidnap/kill/amputate to get access to a biometric scan is going to be well-equipped just to steal the device and read the flash out via JTAG.

Screen locks _do not_ provide meaningful security vs. a determined attacker, and never will no matter what the unlock mechanism is. Unless you encrypt all storage with a strong password ( _not_ a 6-digit PIN) and a good PBKDF, all you get from this stuff is protection against casual snooping.

<comment><USER26> Or it's just the cops, and unlike a password or pin or pattern, they can actually physically force your authentication out of you with a single finger press.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm still weirded out by the idea that Apple has finally split the iPhone line into "premium" and "value" streams. It just seems so... un-Apple. The whole "last-year's-model" discount was a bit of a kludge, but still Apple stood out from the rest of the industry with such a simple product line - device, biannual release, size, that's it.

<comment><USER30> Apple has had premium and value lines before. Indeed, during the heyday of the Macbook, it was split into a premium aluminum and a cheaper polycarbonate model.

<comment><USER29> Yes, obviously the PC/Laptop side of the business has always had this kind of differentiation (also the pure-Mp3 player business), but the iOS stuff has avoided this since the inception of the iPhone. The iPad, iPod, and iPhone were just "size only".

Now that Jobs is gone and competition has heated up, we're seeing Apple back away from that with the iPad mini and the 5s. It feels like a big shift for Apple.

<comment><USER31> >Now that Jobs is gone

Seriously, what does this have to do with the point you're making?

<comment><USER32> Jobs was the entire reason that their product offering was so focused. Look back at the mess that was Apple's product offering smorgasbord before Jobs returned and took his hatchet to it.

Without visionary leadership, most big companies are unable to resist the temptation to take the kitchen sink attitude toward product development.

The coherence of Apple's product strategy will most likely decrease as we move further past the age of Jobs... unless they find a new similarly-capable leader.

<comment><USER33> This seems more focused and less confusing than prominently selling last years' model (which Apple has previously done).

From a consumer perspective it seem extremely hard to differentiate between different years' iPhone models. This new clear (also visual) distinction makes it easier and provides more guidance for consumers. It's a bit more work for Apple (what with them having to make two iPhone models every year) but for the consumer it should be much easier to understand.

The 5C stands out and makes it really clear that Apple has something that costs a bit less than their flagship. Yeah, it's just the 5 repackaged – but I think it's really important signalling and should make Apple's lineup much easier to understand for consumers.

There's still the 4S to muddy the waters, though. Ah, I guess that's some Jobs-era legacy mess. Selling a two year old model is really lame and confusing after all :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Better photos, TouchID, snappier performance -- a traditional incremental Apple upgrade befitting the "S" moniker.

I've long been wondering when/if Apple would take on NFC and things like payments more aggressively. I get the feeling that they're going to skip NFC entirely, and that TouchID is going to be a large part of processing transactions without the need for any physical device interaction (swipe/tap/bump).

Right now I've got that hazy tip-of-iceberg feeling that Apple is probably in the early phases of executing some grand vision that I can't yet see the entirety of.

And that's why Apple continues to be _the_ leading consumer device co: who else out there has "vision?" Google is the closest, but IMHO Android has always felt reactionary, not visionary.

<comment><USER35> How odd, I feel the opposite, re: vision... Google is leading the way with progressive developments in many varied fields.

Expecting more today from Tim Cook, the Apple announcement left me flat. Understand, that while I'm a long time Apple user, my Android phone(s) have offered features to which Apple is still playing catch-up. Apple is the reactionary these days; they may have introduced the iPhone as a ground- breaking product back-in-the-day, but Android is outpacing the iPhone with each new release.

<opinion>Aside from the MBP I use for work, I won't be purchasing another Apple product anytime soon, FWIW.</opinion>

<comment><USER34> To echo r00fus, Apple's visions are more tangible to the everyday consumer - or at least better elucidated. Apple is the master of "segmentation" \- i.e.: identifying a pain point or desired experience, and building it. TouchID, for instance, solves a problem - passwords suck. "Here's a simple, frictionless way around it, that incidentally will be powering all of your apple-conduit payments inside of a year." That's a vision that relatable, easy to understand, etc., compared to something like glass which is much more "out there."

To put it another way, each apple feature is clearly tied to a consumer- relatable use case. Collections of features form pieces of apples vision, rolling up use cases into the "experiences" that they mentioned today.

<comment><USER36> If TouchID is adopted by 95% of all user I wonder if iPhones will still be a worthy target for average thiefs?

I think you can't reset or jailbreak a locked even today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is what I don't like about apple the 5s $199 version has 16GB and the 5c $199 version has 32GB. They should have at-lease giving us 24GB for 5s $199.

Apple being apple trying to keep margins high.

The new colors kind of suck but great for high school girls.

<comment><USER38> It took quite some time for me to fill up the 16GB. I'm more of a power user now, so I'll be upgrading to the 32GB but, for most 16GB is plenty.

<comment><USER39> I had to trim down the number of playlists I store on my Nexus 4, which only has 16 gigs. I also have to be more cognizant of how many podcasts I download at the same time.

I like my phone. But I don't think I'll ever buy anything without at least 32 gigs of storage, or a place to plug more memory in.

<comment><USER40> I recommend, uploading your music to Google Play. You do not have to worry about using up the space on the device.

<comment><USER41> Unless you have a data plan with less than 2GB of data, that is. And are OK with waiting a bit for things to buffer. With Google Music I end up offlining a lot of songs because data plans in Canada are terrible and because 3G isn't everywhere you want to listen to music. Add podcasts and you hit the storage limit in no time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> The USA already has all 10 of my fingerprints. When I was going through the process of becoming a permanent resident, I had to scan it into a machine.

Every time I come back into the USA after coming back from a trip outside the country, I have to scan multiple of my prints.

<comment><USER43> Everyone who enters the US has to get their fingerprints scanned (even tourists), it has been that way for many many years.

<comment><USER44> This is not completely accurate. At the very least, Canadians entering at land crossings are not scanned.

<comment><USER42> Through airports it's always happened to me. Through the Canadian border at Niagara Falls it didn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I wonder how the people claiming plastic in those Android-phones feels "cheap" is going to react to this.

<comment><USER46> The plastic they're using (hard-coated polycarbonate) is, I believe, the same plastic used on many of the Nokia Lumia phones which a lot of people say feel much higher quality than other, regular plastic phones. That said, the 5C is the cheaper option and it isn't going to feel as good as the aluminium of the 5S. I don't however think it will be anywhere near as cheap-feeling as other phones (e.g. the Samsung Galaxy S4 which has been described as feeling "greasy").

<comment><USER47> and that's why Nokia posted this: [https://twitter.com/nokia_uk/status/377483408043036672/photo...](https://twitter.com/nokia_uk/status/377483408043036672/photo/1)

<comment><USER48> Ads of multicolored devices featuring content that matches the enclosure? Who would've thunk it?

[http://cl.ly/image/1U3i2F2v2r43](http://cl.ly/image/1U3i2F2v2r43)

<comment><USER49> Those are all just staged for ads (unless you think you can't listen to the Beatles Red Album on a blue nano and vice versa) except for the latest one, which came out after the Nokia devices.

I'm sure someone did it before (I seem to recall IE5 letting you change the interface to match the early iMac colours) but your comment (and a quick glance at the linked image) is misleading as it stands.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac#Inter...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac#Internet_Explorer_5_for_Mac_distinguishing_features)

<comment><USER50> The Nokia is staged for ads too. You can change the highlight color to be whatever you want. Additionally, many WP apps have a solid colored tile that doesn't respect the user's color choice.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I visualize this: husband is sleeping deeply, wife picks up the phone and taps the home button while he's sleeping and unlocks the phone.

Release the kraken.

<comment><USER52> If he doesn't have anything to hide from his wife then he has nothing to worry about.

<comment><USER53> So this argument is complete crap when it comes to governments but totally okay when it comes to spouses?

How about a series of emails joking & griping about your wife's habits to your best friend? Completely harmless but not exactly the kind of thing that you'd want them reading.

Our digital selves trail back in time farther and farther these days; would you want your wife reading emails between you and an ex from before you met her?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> "According to Apple, the processor is more than twice as fast as the A6, with a 40x CPU performance bump. Graphics are said to be 56x faster."

What does that even mean? I'm getting tired of claims like these. They're obviously non-sensical and groundless and they should be publicly shamed for it. But that'll never happen I guess.

<comment><USER13> 2x as fast as the A6 for CPU and GPU.

the 40x CPU and 56x GPU numbers are referencing the 5S against the original iPhone (as a 'look how far we've come' retrospective)

<comment><USER54> Do they mention the baseline being the iPhone 1 in the article? Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

<comment><USER55> They show it in that one graph.

[http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/img_8908...](http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/img_8908.jpg?w=1920)

[http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/img_8907...](http://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/img_8907.jpg?w=1920)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> At some point you'll be able to pick up your friend's phone or tablet, touch it, and without entering usernames, emails, or passwords, have access to all your "stuff", including the same homescreen / desktop as your own phone / laptop.

There will be open source, open standard, secure authentication and identity systems chained together, kind of like an evolution of Persona or OpenID, and when you view a website on your friend's phone, it will recognize you immediately.

<comment><USER53> A setup like that relies on massive trust in cloud computing services and sanctity of the operating system, software, and hardware which I -- and probably many other curmudgeonly tech-savvy people like me -- are unwilling to give.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> About the ID fingerprints? Am I the only one so in constant fear and doubt that thinks this would be a great way of bulk collecting the fingerprints of ANYONE?

<comment><USER58> They say that applications don't have access to it and it is never uploaded online, but until the device is out there is no way to verify it.

<comment><USER59> Even after the device is out it would be very hard(if not impossible) to verify it doesn't send fingerprint or hash of fingerprint online. There's plenty of places they can hide this.

<comment><USER31> Don't you think this would be a _huge_ scandal, if it was revealed? Considering they specifically say it is _not_ uploaded? Just saying.

Why would they take such a risk?

<comment><USER60> The entire NSA thing to date is a huge scandal, and yet no one (outside of the tech community) seems to really care... Not many people are closing their accounts associated with NSA complicit companies.

<comment><USER31> Do you really fail to see the difference between disclosing user info already on the servers to the NSA under legal orders and announcing a _new_ product _after_ the leaks, claiming it does _not_ send any data, and doing the exact opposite without any additional benefit? Why would Apple do this?

I don't recall reading NSA can now force companies to include finger sensors, and then force them to collect data they wouldn't be collecting otherwise.

<comment><USER61> You are sound really really naive. You sound like the kind of person who is "shocked" by new scandals.

<comment><USER31> What is it that I said that sounds naïve to you?

That NSA can't force a company to include fingerprint sensors in their new phone?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> No one mentioned that stealing an iPhone is much more difficult now. Thieves need to be careful not to touch the sensor!

<comment><USER63> Or they take your thumb as well as your phone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> I don't have a problem with the fingerprint scanner, since people can choose to use it or not. The larger problem I see for the 5S is a marketing one: while the A7 processor and internal redesign are significant technical achievements, consumers won't understand that or care. They know that their existing iPhone 5's are relatively fast, and that will be enough for most people. They needed to add features - not necessarily speed - for this phone to have the kind of success that its predecessors have achieved.

<comment><USER65> This is typical of the previous 's' updates: 3gs, 4s. Both offered a better camera and faster speed, and not much else. The 4s had siri, which ended up being mostly just a gimmick IMO.

<comment><USER66> I use Siri to schedule reminders all the time. Sometimes to take notes and it's also useful for sending hands free texts via voice. Oh, and search... I just used it tonight when in an unfamiliar area to find the nearest gas station and get directions to it, all via voice so I can keep my eyes on the road.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Instead of using the iPhone 5 as the free option, they are discontinuing it and using the 4S as the free one.

<comment><USER67> I would surmise that is likely due to the iPhone 5C and iPhone 5 having very similar specs. A free iPhone 5 would cannibalize the 5C sales. Why pay 100 dollars for a color case? Then again, a number of people paid the "black tax" for their macbook a number of years back.

<comment><USER25> I wonder what this will do to the resale value of iPhone 5 64G Verizon. I'd upgrade from 5 -> 5S if it net cost were <$300, but it appears Priceonomics says it is $320-$450, and a new iPhone 5S 64G is $849.

<comment><USER68> Verizon iPhone 5 64GB black is listed as $370 on NextWorth so that's a maybe. I've had luck in past years of reducing my upgrade costs to under $100, but AT&T is being less generous on the contract period this time around (or it didn't line up as well as in the past).

<comment><USER25> Yeah, I'll probably just list my 5 "high" on Amazon, and buy a 5S IFF it sells, or just pay the Apple tax for the year. I'm not sure how Verizon works with upgrades when you have multiple devices on an account (phone, 3 iPads, 2 Mifi); could I just upgrade one of the iPads I brought to an iPhone 5S and shuffle things around?

<comment><USER68> I am not the person to ask about Verizon. I'm with AT&T because of my unlimited data plan and their excellent coverage in this area. That said, I'm considering something similar for upgrading to the 5S, NextWorth was just a place to look at prices to gauge what I should try and sell it for. I also only have the one data plan on AT&T, never got one for my iPad (wifi only).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Is 5C inspired by Nokia Lumia ? [https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=560515223996127&set=...](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=560515223996127&set=a.109142489133405.4548.100686616645659&type=1&ref=nf) (Nokia Fanpage)

<comment><USER70> Or you could reverse the question and ask if the Lumia is inspired by a decade of Apple doing colourful iPod ranges...

<comment><USER71> Yeah, but Nokia did it with _phones_ first, so Apple should respect that. The same way Apple claims all sorts of things were unique and patentable because they did them on a phone touchscreen and not a PDA touchscreen (which is so TOTALLY different).

<comment><USER70> Apple has been doing colorful consumer devices for over a decade... iMacs come to mind... they do the modus operandi and they are suddenly copy someone? you have some serious tunnel vision.

<comment><USER71> You missed the obvious sarcasm in the post. Apple did colorful things before Nokia's phones, but Nokia did multi-colored phones before Apple did. And, using Apple's logic that just because it's a phone makes it different (see multiple iPhone patents that folks like Palm and Microsoft did first on PDAs and similar), that means Nokia was new and innovative and Apple copied.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Can't believe they didn't make bigger screens. iPhones seem so tiny these days.

Also, just 33 votes on HN atm - made me realize that probasbly people are already using HN votes as input for their stock trading aslgorithms :-)

<comment><USER73> I disagree. The iPhone 4 had (and still has) the perfect dimension of any phones for holding in to adult average human hand and carrying it around in average sized pant pockets or strapping it on arms while jogging/hiking. The iPhone 5 ruined it a bit in trying to copy competition and not knowing that it actually had it better. I see people using large android brick sized phones all the time uncomfortably carrying it around in their relatively tiny hands and unable to hold anything else even when they are not using it because it's too big to put in pocket. I know Jobs had obsessed over iPhone dimensions a lot and arrived at the best compromise for a device you can actually live with without being felt lugging it around.

<comment><USER72> By that logic, Apple should have never published the iPad because it is too big to hold in a human hand. Carrying bigger phones in a pocket isn't really an issue either.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> The M7 chip's an interesting nod to quantified self'ers. I'm certainly sick of the battery drain caused by running Moves, or one of the many Google Latitude clients, over time.

</comment><comment><USER75> The NSA now will have a database of everybody's fingerprints!! Great :D

<comment><USER67> First of all, this is not a constructive comment. Second, they explicitly said that the fingerprint never leaves the phone (and believe me, people will be looking to verify. It would be a huge boon to a persons career to be the person that caught apple in that lie).

<comment><USER76> How are you going to check? iOS is closed-source. You cannot monitor the traffic 24/7 over the whole lifetime of the device. Maybe the fingerprint delivery can be ordered remotely.

<comment><USER77> It's a phone... If you are concerned that your fingerprints MIGHT be uploaded you need to consider just not using a smartphone. AKA "a voluntary spy device".

<comment><USER63> It's quite odd. Here's a device that can listen to everything you say all day long, that can read all of your e-mail, take pictures of you and your surroundings, sniff all of your passwords, etc. etc. etc., but people are freaking out because it might be stealing your _fingerprints_ , which you leave thousands of on various public surfaces every day anyway? I just don't get it.

<comment><USER78> Typical initial outrage at something new. The phone already logs your every move yet people have already forgotten about it and clearly don't care.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> >According to Apple, half of users don't set up a passcode on their device.

How could they know that?

<comment><USER80> Cook said: "In our test cases, half of users don't set up a passcode on their device."

<comment><USER79> Ah, didn't see the "test cases" part.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> I'd like to know whether they're going to use the fingerprint sensor for unlocking the keychain as well. If yes, we could also take advantage of it in app development, no?

<comment><USER82> It's just like with passcode: you app never has "passcode API", but your keychain items are unlocked when user enters passcode according to the policy you have chosen. Why it should be different when fingerprint is used instead of a passcode?

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> Aren't swipe sensors considered more secure than press-on ones? There's all kinds of very simple recipes out there to trick those.

A swipe sensor would have needed less space to boot.

<comment><USER84> Press-on sensor is obvious because it mimics the current home button perfectly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I was really hoping for NFC support - sigh.

I _do_ love the fingerprint sensor and the intelligent auto-focusing features, though.

Blurry smartphone pictures are _so_ ubiquitous these days.

<comment><USER85> Why does everyone keep going on about NFC? It's been on Android for years and it's never been used in any meaningful way. I don't see Apple introducing some new hardware component just for the sake of adding it. They'll introduce something when they have a really solid use for it, which is something that Google seems to have never really had with NFC.

<comment><USER17> _Something_ is going to replace the credit card.

If Apple had thrown their weight behind NFC, that would have closed the deal.

I give them one more year (one iWatch release, and the iPhone 6 release) and then I agree, NFC will be a dead end.

<comment><USER85> What I meant is, if NFC is the best way to replace credit cards then Apple would want to be in on making that happen, they wouldn't just put the hardware on their devices and leave someone else to implement it. Something like NFC has just been basically a bullet point on Android phones' feature lists, but that's not really Apple's style. They're going to build something to use it on day 1 or they're not going to include it in their device.

Maybe they're working on payment stuff, maybe they're not.. but since it's obviously not ready I'm not the least bit surprised that we don't see NFC on Apple devices.

<comment><USER86> The cynical side of me says that Apple won't introduce NFC until they can sort out the licensing deals that give them a cut of every transaction.

<comment><USER85> Yeah, that's part of what I mean.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> Still no NFC.

It's an underrated technology for pairing devices. Real investments and more hardware would follow if Apple jumped in the pool with everyone else.

<comment><USER88> Chicken and egg.

<comment><USER87> Does that make Apple the chicken in this metaphor?

<comment><USER89> Yes- the chicken produces the egg

<comment><USER90> But the trouble is we'll need a egg to get a chicken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER91> Very disappointing that they couldn't get the 5C closer to the rumored $399 or $450 off-contract prices... $549 is very steep for 1-year old technology wrapped in a $2 plastic case. I'd sell my AAPL stock today (if I had any left) before Wall Street crunches their numbers.

<comment><USER92> If you knew anything about trading in the first place, you'd know that you can always sell short.

<comment><USER91> My statement implies a non-positive outlook for AAPL. Short selling implies a negative outlook. See the difference?

PS: No need to lecture me on basic finance, unless you've also been on the management team of a $16bn equity fund.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> I knew this would immediately devolve into a shit show.

</comment><comment><USER94> I am still waiting for the same processor and camera in a smaller size with a longer battery life.

<comment><USER95> The iPhone is already "miniature" by Android standards.

<comment><USER94> Comment really applies to any phone's next generation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> It seems that the 5S and the 5C support China Mobile's LTE bands. Is that what will be announced tomorrow at the Apple event in China?

[http://www.apple.com/iphone/LTE/](http://www.apple.com/iphone/LTE/)

<comment><USER97> The China event was only "tomorrow" so far as Beijing is 15 hours ahead of California. It was just a live stream of the announcement IIRC.

</comment></comment><comment><USER98> How much weight does the claim that the Touch ID not being stored on Apple's servers really matter?

They claim it is stored on the A7 chip itself. Is that secure enough for us to believe that the NSA can't get access to it?

I am genuinely asking about the security implications.

If all the fingerprints were on iCloud, then all the Feds have to do is force Apple to give them access to their servers.

Having the fingerprint pushed down to each individual device, that seems to be more secure.

But am I just being naive or is that truly more secure?

<comment><USER99> IMHO, Apple's claim doesn't matter at all. If the NSA wants to get inside your iPhone and add some code, it will find some way to do so - either with the help of Apple, through a backdoor or a recent vulnerability.

And once it's inside, the NSA is free to install a code snippet that uploads your fingerprint directly to their server.

</comment></comment><comment><USER100> The Touch ID is really exciting for accessibility as it enables visually impaired users to access their phone without having to fiddle around with a lock screen, which may reveal their password to those around them.

[http://www.accessibleresources.com/2013/09/10/apple- announce...](http://www.accessibleresources.com/2013/09/10/apple-announces- new-iphone5c-and-iphone5s-touch-id-fingerprint-sensor/)

<comment><USER53> I assumed that visually impaired users eschewed touchscreen phones altogether for accessibility issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> Is it just me or is it something we don't expect from Apple? [http://imgur.com/KYgtVDb](http://imgur.com/KYgtVDb)

<comment><USER102> Exactly right. Something like this seems so easy for them to catch too, I wonder why/how it made it through. Maybe the case was a last-minute addition

</comment></comment><comment><USER103> So, WhereTF is my Thunderbolt Display update? 726 days since the last update according to [http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/](http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/).

We just moved to an new office in august, and been waiting with buying displays hoping they'll be updated to the new formfactor of iMacs. too bad ... ;( really disappointed.

<comment><USER104> No shit. New iMac with thinner display for many months now, yet no new monitor. Considering the 27HM from Dell.

</comment></comment><comment><USER105> Yeah, 'cos I really want a convenient way to send my fingerprints to the government.

</comment><comment><USER106> If I'm using my fingerprint to protect something, it must be way more valuable than the fingerprint itself. It's like using a key made of gold to protect a box full of rocks.

</comment><comment><USER107> Best iPhone commercial I have seen so far.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sIWez9HAbA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sIWez9HAbA)

</comment><comment><USER108> This is fantastic, breakthrough, I've long waited fingerprint scanning technology. This could definitely decrease cybercriminals.

</comment><comment><USER109> I've been thinking about getting a withings pulse or a misfit shine... now I'll wait to see what the 5S itself can do.

</comment><comment><USER110> Edit: Read "on-contract" as "no-contract" and almost threw a party, thanks for pointing out my mistake guys

<comment><USER77> You must have missed the word "starting" ;)

<comment><USER111> Or "on-contract"?

<comment><USER110> Ah damn dyslexia kicking in, totally read that as "no-contract" thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER112> Have they added color profile support yet?

<comment><USER58> What do you mean by color profile? Something like f.lux, where it changes the color of the screen?

<comment><USER113> I think he meant ColorSync[1] or ICC support for color management. An image that uses a color space other than sRGB (like Adobe RGB or CMYK) will look different on iOS than it does on OS X.

Apparently, iOS 4 did add ICC support in CoreGraphics for apps to use [2] but it seems to me that Apple's apps don't take advantage of it.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorsync](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorsync)

[2] [https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/releasenotes/General...](https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewIniOS/Articles/iPhoneOS4.html)

<comment><USER112> Yeah, I want to calibrate ios screens. Using something like the i1 display pro.

It made a huge difference on my computer monitors.

I want a system wide color profile support, like what we have in Windows or OSX... Not a per app support.

<comment><USER114> Calibrating the screen and supporting embedded profiles in images are two different things.

It would be nice if images with embedded profiles rendered correctly to the screen, e.g. with Safari on iPhone, using a canned profile that assumes that Apple has correctly profiled the mean iPhone display and that the variance between particular screens isn't too high. From what I can tell the iPhone doesn't do color management at all and the display resembles sRGB enough to call it good enough for a consumer device.

On the other hand I'd assume that the number of people who would want to use an external colorimeter and make a profile for their particular iPhone was not a market big enough for anyone (let alone Apple) to bother with, and since the iPhone has no mechanism to actually use that profile, it's pointless except for the purpose of converting images to iPhone in a desktop app, but in that case why would you care about your particular iPhone?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER112> Fingerprint sensor + NSA chip? Wow, that'd get banned in multiple countries fast. Mark my words.

<comment><USER115> Paranoid much?

</comment></comment><comment><USER116> Why would anyone willingly submit to daily bio-metric validation of one's data is beyond me.

</comment><comment><USER117> Anyone see the "desktop class" bullet point?

</comment><comment><USER118> pretty stoked on fingerprint for apple id

</comment><comment><USER119> disappointing!

</comment><comment><USER47> Wait till you see the iPhone 6 :)

</comment><comment><USER120> Finally! Can't wait for jailbreaks for 4S and 5 to come out now... :)</comment>


USPTO invalidates key Apple patent used against Samsung - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57560112-37/uspto-invalidates-key-apple-patent-used-against-samsung/

<comment><USER2> It's nice to see the USPTO strike down trivial patents, but it would be a whole lot nicer if it were done before millions of dollars in court costs were wasted.

<comment><USER3> As much as I hate the current US patents situation, the USPTO can't do much about it.

Bad patents can get submited as many times as the holder wants, but the USPTO can only mistake a bad patent for a good one once, and it's granted.

<comment><USER4> > Bad patents can get submited as many times as the holder wants, but the > USPTO can only mistake a bad patent for a good one once, and it's granted.

The problem is that the USPTO doesn't even seem to want to make the decision that early in the process. They seem to take a stance of "unless it is blatant crap, grant it, and let the courts sort it out and/or wait for enough complaints".

I think its just a matter of man power, they don't seem to be able to dedicate the time/talent up front to do a thorough job. Instead they make a bet that most patents are meaningless anyway so grant liberally and only put in the real time when/if a patent becomes an issue.

The problem with this is that it strikes a firm blow to one of the key goals of the patent system, to protect the 'little guy'. Making a patent a big enough issue to draw review is prohibitively expensive for most little guys. It seems like it takes two or more behemoth companies locking multi-million dollar horns to draw their attention.

<comment><USER5> _I think its just a matter of man power, they don't seem to be able to dedicate the time/talent up front to do a thorough job._

That's pretty much it. Congress sees the USPTO as a revenue source, so they aren't even allowed to keep all the money they collect in fees (and they aren't allowed to raise their fees either). And they aren't allowed to develop a backlog (they started falling behind in the 1980s, but Congress slapped passed new laws preventing that). And if they reject an application the application can be amended and resubmitted, and almost always is until it's accepted.

So basically the USPTO doesn't have the authority by itself to solve the issue, and we need a solution from Congress.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It should have been invalidated in the course of the trial, but we have a wonderful notion of presumed validity.

Instead we just went through both an expensive lawsuit and a re-exam procedure for a patent that never should have been filed and hence never should have issued.

It begs the question: How often are damages paid for "infringement" of invalid claims?

Lawyers made money. The USPTO made money.

Businesses lost money, not to mention time.

Anyone who is paying licensing fees for Apple's bogus pinch to zoom patent, you can stop paying now. Thanks for playing.

</comment><comment><USER7> USPTO hasn't officially invalidate any patents. They've filed a non-final office action. It's now up to Apple to prove they're valid.

USPTO almost always do this when it comes to reexaminations, they'll reject all claims, forcing the patent owners to fight harder to prove they should have those patents.

On USPTO site, they mention that it is very rarely that the reexamination would reject in all patents being invalided after the first office action, 70%+ of the times, a small part is rejected while the rest are re-validated as real.

</comment><comment><USER8> USPTO trying damage limitation exercises against their awful prior art screening. Pretty pathetic, really.

Software patents should not exist, period.</comment>


Russian warship 'carrying £100B in gold' discovered off South Korea - <AUTHOR> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/18/russian-warship-carrying-100-billion-gold-discovered-south-korea/ <comment><USER2> From a December 2000 NY Times report,

      Shares of Dong Ah surged 41 percent this week, to 410 won
      (33 cents, United States) on Wednesday. Today, the Korean
      Stock Exchange halted trading and ordered the company to
      provide an explanation on Friday.

      The run-up in the stock came after local media reports said
      that the venture, the Korea Ocean Research and Development
      Institute, had discovered a warship of the Imperial Russian
      Navy, the 6,200-ton Dmitri Donskoi. ....

      ...

      Sergei Klimovsky, chief of scholarly research at the Central
      Naval Museum in St. Petersburg, told Bloomberg: "As far as
      we know, at best, there might have only been some gold coins
      on board to pay the salaries of officers. But there was no
      hoard of gold, and to send a large amount of gold by ship
      from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok is ridiculous. It would
      have been safer to send it by rail."

[https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/business/investor- frenzy-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/08/business/investor-frenzy-over- tales-of-gold.html)

<comment><USER3> I eagerly await the next South Korean discovery of the ship in 2034.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "£100 billion in gold" sounds like an implausibly large amount. I estimate it is about 3 or 4 thousand metric tons. But could such a ship carry that much?

<comment><USER3> Amount of gold aside, it looks like the _Dmitrii Donskoi_ sank during or around the battle of Tsushima, having sailed all the way from the Baltic, and around the Cape of Good Hope, in one of the most ignominious and infamous fleet movements in history. Why would Russia put several hundred metric tonnes of gold on a cruiser which was heading to fight Japanese warships?

<comment><USER5> The whole thing was a farce. I'm not sure if it was a thing common with other navies but reading the history of the ship is reading a long list of accidents and mistakes. The shambles of the war with the Japanese is is well covered in Montifiore's book on the Romanovs, and he presents it as a collection of worn out ships, a badly led navy and a massive vanity project with a healthy dose of racism leading to underestimation of Japanese abilities.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Dmitrii_Dons...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Dmitrii_Donskoi)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The ship sank in 1905, in case people who can't bypass the paywall might have been wondering.

<comment><USER7> Nowadays, several countries have GDP much greater than "£100B" and I think that was very much not the case in 1905. Anyone have the figures for 1905 at their fingertips?</comment></comment>


The Formula That Killed Wall Street (2009) - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2009/02/wp-quant/?currentPage=all <comment><AUTHOR> This article is pretty old but it does a pretty good job of discussing David Li's Gaussian Copela. It was/is the formula that played significant role in pricing the derivative instruments that helped cause a bit of panic back in 2008.

his original paper is still below if anyone is interested.

[http://www.defaultrisk.com/_pdf6j4/On%20Default%20Correlatio...](http://www.defaultrisk.com/_pdf6j4/On%20Default%20Correlation-%20A%20Copula%20Function%20Approach.pdf)</comment>


What does the new crowdfunding law say - <AUTHOR> http://cuttingedgecapital.com/2012/04/what-does-the-new-crowdfunding-law-say/ <comment><USER2> great succinct description of rules and regulations. thank you for sharing!</comment>


Show HN: RemindEat - never forget what you ate - <AUTHOR>

I like going out with my fiancé and tasting new dishes in new places. Once I get to a place I've been before I never remember what I previously ate.
So we decided to sit down and think of something we could do to help solve this and came up with our first project together. RemindEat emails and/or sends you an SMS when you check-in at any food place, reminding you to note down what you ate. Next time you check-in you'll be reminded of what you've eaten there before and to note down what you'll eat this time.
Its built on top of Flask, Twitter Bootstrap, uses Twilio for SMS, and Postmark for emails. Obviously powered by Foursquare.
Please go to http://remindeat.com, try it out and let me know what you think. <comment><USER2> Great work getting something up and out!

Some thoughts - 1\. Reminds me of <http://www.foodspotting.com/> but more personal. Instead of being told what other people liked, i'm able to remember what I liked. 2\. Is it possible to use foodspotting as the back-end? 3\. Am I able to comment on what I ate? For instance - dish a was delicious but small so order 2 next time? 4\. nitpicky - the white font over the food picture is hard to read. Especially near the end when it's a white font on a white background.

Great work - looking forward to seeing how this develops!

</comment><comment><USER3> The link remindeat.com/login gives me a 403 error.

</comment><comment><USER4> What's the use case for this?

<comment><USER5> My experience is that my enjoyment of a restaurant (or take away joint, or whatever) is partially dependent on my knowledge of that venue.

For example, my local burger bar. I've tried all of the burgers (well, at least the ones that sound appealing to me), and know exactly what I like/don't like. I can better enjoy my experience (and... oh boy... do I! _drools_ ).

Compare this to the following - I recently went to a restaurant with my partner that I had been to before, rather recently - but not recently enough to remember what I had (but obviously did not dislike it). In fact, this is not an infrequent event - not necessarily as a 2nd visit, but perhaps even a 3rd, 4th of 5th and yet still I rarely remember what's good/not good in such places. For me, this is a missed opportunity - if I could keep notes that last longer than my thoughts (which last 1-4 weeks only), I could gradually build up a better experience over time.

I like the idea.That said, I never caught onto 4sq...</comment></comment>


Electronic University History: TeleLearning at 300 Baud - <AUTHOR> https://tedium.co/2019/05/23/telelearning-electronic-university-history/ <comment><USER2> I took college classes at 300 baud, too. Via Q-Link.

Unfortunately, I chose Soviet Studies as my concentration. Seemed to make sense in 1986. Today... not so much.

<comment><USER3> A lot of millennials seem to think communism is a good thing. A background in Soviet Studies may be useful in explaining why that's not the case.</comment></comment>


As Neo-Nazis Seed Military Ranks, Germany Confronts 'An Enemy Within' - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/03/world/europe/germany-military-neo-nazis-ksk.html <comment><USER2> Not the first one, 7 months ago (Dec 1, 2019): [https://www.dw.com/en/neo- nazi-scandal-hits-german-elite-mil...](https://www.dw.com/en/neo-nazi-scandal- hits-german-elite-military-unit/a-51490089)

Too little too late, they have open Nazis [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5344859/Far- right-G...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5344859/Far-right-German- party-chief-posted-picture-SS-chat.html)

in Parliament now [https://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right- ru...](https://time.com/4955503/germany-elections-2017-far-right-russia- angela-merkel/)

with strategically placed Public officials in high places

[https://www.dw.com/en/german-spy-chief-passed-info-to-afd- re...](https://www.dw.com/en/german-spy-chief-passed-info-to-afd- report/a-45472180)

a spy Chief passing secret information to neo nazi organisation, and surviving the scandal with a _promotion_!

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/18/germanys- domes...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/18/germanys-domestic-spy- chief-hans-georg-maassen-chemnitz)

[https://www.dw.com/en/german-ex-spy-chief-maassen-to-join- la...](https://www.dw.com/en/german-ex-spy-chief-maassen-to-join-law-firm- that-represented-afd/a-50650274)

They tried to put BND on the case to investigate in 2016, but AfD sued and won :] Somehow they are trying again [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/german- intelli...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/german-intelligence- agency-puts-part-of-far-right-afd-under-surveillance) but what good does investigation when you have AfD members in the oversight commissions now ...

</comment><comment><USER3> NYT article is paywalled

<comment><USER4> Is it? I can see the complete article.</comment></comment>


Show HN: How to Create MySQL Users/Permissions - <AUTHOR> https://howtocreateusermysql.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Created this because the first results on Google are a bunch of SEO optimized articles I don't want to read with a whole lot of useless text. And I have to skim multiple sections and copy paste commands one by one to do what I need.

I want an easy copy paste solution.

This is a rough demo, improvements are obviously required.</comment>


Tell HN: Giving away my homebrew windmill - <AUTHOR> Hello HN.
After lugging it with me for a bit over a decade without ever having a good place to re-install it I'm giving away my windmill. It's a 2.5 KW rated variable pitch machine that took over two years and a small fortune to build.
The project is documented here:
https://jacquesmattheij.com/how-to-build-a-windmill/
The machine definitely needs work, (1) the slipring assembly and tower shaft and mount will need to be re-made, (2) the whole thing could do with a new coat of paint.
It's built with imperial hardware so you'll need to buy some bolts to mount the blades. It is also heavy, you'll need two people to lift it into the back of a vehicle. The blades are 2.5 meters long (three of them), the total machine is 5 meters in diameter when assembled. Some metalworking skills or access to someone who has those is a must. If you have a lathe that would make things much easier.
It goes without saying that this is a prototype machine and that installing and operating it is at your own risk, if you live in a city you are likely not going to be able to use it but if you have a remote cabin or something like that with steady wind this will give you power to spare.
Let me know if you are interested and able to pick it up near Hilversum, the Netherlands. <comment><USER2> I'm going to be wonderfully pedantic here, in full HN tradition: What you have here sir, is a Wind Turbine. A 'Windmill' mills grain as part of the rotation. :D

<comment><AUTHOR> In nl we call all of them windmills. We even have 'watermills', windmills that pump water, the same term is also used to indicate a water driven mill. But from a tech perspective you are right, Wind Turbine is the correct name.

<comment><USER3> I think that's common in English, too. Checking various online sources, I couldn't find one that's strict on the narrower meaning. For example, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill) says _"the term is also extended to windpumps, wind turbines and other applications."_

On the other hand, I think windmills that pump water are called windmills, not watermills. Watermills always extract power from moving water (saw mills don't extract power from saws, nor do gristmills extract it from grist, though)

The Kinderdijk mills ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderdijk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderdijk)) aren't called water mills, for example.

<comment><AUTHOR> True, you shouldn't. But I've heard farmers refer to their pumpers as 'watermills', which technically they aren't. In the end it doesn't really matter, people seem to find a way to understand each other even if their use of language is imprecise. A bit like the internet protocol guidelines. So it's important to at least try to use things properly and leave the fixup to the recipient in case the sender wasn't doing it perfect after all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> May I suggest donating it to Engineers Without Borders? They can and will surely put it to good use generating electricity in an impoverished nation. A good friend of mine spent some months in Malawi building clean water infrastructure. EWB is a good charity.

<comment><AUTHOR> That is an excellent suggestion. Can you put me in contact with someone there?

<comment><USER4> I'm Canadian so I only have EWB contacts here.

I'll reach out to you on Twitter

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If curious see also

2012 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4579932](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4579932)

2012 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4584772](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4584772)

2015 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10791461](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10791461)

<comment><USER6> I think the titles are important here

* " _How to build a windmill_ "

* " _How to Build a Windmill, Part 2: Parts, Nuts, Bolts and Blades_ "

* " _How to build a windmill part 2: Parts, nuts, bolts and blades (2012)_ "

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Upgrade experiment: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rooftop-wind- powe...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rooftop-wind-power-might- take-off-by-using-key-principle-of-flight/)

<comment><USER8> Would this work with water flows?

<comment><USER7> Well there's hydropower (gravity) or tidal power (celestial bodies). Otherwise I don't think water can be focused the way wind can.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am extremely interested (I live on a boat which I built myself [also here in NL!] and I'm trying to make it zero emissions) but sadly I think the rotor diameter of 5 meters is a bit big for me to handle. The weight of 85kg is no problem at all, but the large rotors would be tough to fit on the boat. Would it work with significantly smaller blades (say 1.5m diameter?) and some gearing? The blades are a work of art, so if someone can use the whole thing they'd of course be a better candidate than me.

Alternately, I noticed you built a half scale alternator - if you're looking for something to do with it, I'd love to build a wind turbine around that :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Owen, the alternator is closely matched to the blades, shortening the blades would mean it would no longer work except in hurricanes :)

The half scale one was already donated to someone while I was still in Canada.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is the same person whose story, "Restoring and MIDI-fying a Baby Grand Piano" made the front page of HN a couple weeks back:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23562784](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23562784)

</comment><comment><USER11> What an inspiring piece of work -- I wish I had somewhere I could use it!

Brings back memories of so many hours poring over [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/431651.Mother_Earth_News...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/431651.Mother_Earth_News_Handbook_of_Homemade_Power) as a young teen...

</comment><comment><USER12> This was a wonderful project and I enjoyed reading your treatment both when you first published it and again now. A huge accomplishment.

Life is always changing and it is tricky letting go of precious things from the past so well done.

It's very kind to be passing this on to another hacker here and I hope it finds an appreciative new home.

</comment><comment><USER13> I don't live in the Netherlands but I just wanted to say that it's a very inspiring project and also that it is a great thing of you to do that you are giving it away to someone else.

Upvoted and hoping it finds a good home :)

</comment><comment><USER14> Great project! The wooden blades were really cool to see. How noisy does it get?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not so bad until it runs at 500 RPM+ or furls, then it will make noise loud enough to hear clearly, because it will run coarse. Normal conditions you won't hear it at all. Those blades are pretty good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Thank you! I hope the person who takes you up on your offer documents the new installation. I really appreciated reading about your process.

</comment><comment><USER16> Aaaand now I want to build a wooden wind turbine.

<comment><USER17> Why not a 3D printed one?

<comment><USER16> It's just fun to build things by hand. Woodworking requires a lot more skills, so there's always something new to learn. It also seems slightly more realistic to me to build a 35-foot tall structure using wood rather than a 3D printer (but I don't know 3D printers that well!)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> What kinds of grains have you milled with it? Is the mill included?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm sure if you hook up a three phase motor to a bunch of stones that it will be happy to mill you some grain. Or crush your ochre or gemstones, saw your wood, pump your water, pulp paper or any of the uses that the windmills of old in this country were put to.</comment></comment>


NSA: key to the extraterrestrial messages [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/ufo/key_to_et_messages.pdf

<comment><USER2> Much better quality scans: [http://www.cufon.org/pdf/4_NSA_Tech_Journal_Articles.pdf](http://www.cufon.org/pdf/4_NSA_Tech_Journal_Articles.pdf) (see page 20 onwards)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is a cryptography training exercise and not an actual extraterrestrial message. [https://allegedlyapparent.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/nsa-29-me...](https://allegedlyapparent.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/nsa-29-messages- key-to-et-messages-release/)

</comment><comment><USER4> Very interesting. I've heard about some of this before, they made a movie about it w/ Jodi Foster called Contact :)

</comment><comment><USER5> The punchline is the first paragraph of page 20.

</comment><comment><USER6> Ends with page 23. (skidoo)</comment>


In 2027, at least 7 out of the top Tiobe languages will be Tree Languages - <AUTHOR> http://longbets.org/793/ <comment><USER2> Unlikely. Languages younger than 5 or 10 years barely make the list, and the top languages are in the 20 years old range on average.

Language adoption takes a really long time, and all new languages are at a disadvantage because older language usage continues due to inertia.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's the safe bet for sure. I'm predicting a paradigm shift. An interesting thing is that 6 of the current top 10 (Java, Python, C#, VB.net, Javascript, PHP) came out between 1991 - 2001, during the web paradigm shift. The 2004 list had 5 of those. So on rare occasions you do see some seismic change that catapults new languages to the top unusually quickly.

<comment><USER2> I agree that the web fueled the rise of those languages, but I disagree about the reason.

The web was a paradigm shift, but it also attracted a lot of beginners. You can see the effect particularly in JavaScript and PHP.

The less complicated it is to write and run a language, the more beginners will use it. Many times, your first language will become your only language (i.e. your Blub), and the inertia of that language's users will increase.

We've seen the same thing again with statistics and ML: Python is rising in popularity because a lot of beginners are taking boot camps and getting quantitative degrees, and they're learning Python.

The question I'd ask you is: what sea change are you expecting that will bring in a large number of beginners? And why will they learn (or be taught) a tree language?

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a great perspective, thanks.

> what sea change are you expecting that will bring in a large number of > beginners?

I think a number of kill apps will arise that exploit Tree Notation. Let me mention 2 teams I spend a lot of time with.

One is working on a paper for a new system for EMR where healthcare providers/clinicians/researchers use the same syntax for the whole life cycle of medical data. So nurses in Bolivia might write intake notes on pen and paper in an EMR Tree Language; doctors in India may dictate notes into an EMR Tree Language; patients may copy/paste their entire medical records from one provider to the next during an acute care visit; and researchers at the end of the pipeline might get their data in a clean strongly typed Tree Language before loading into a deep learning training model. [https://github.com/treenotation/pau](https://github.com/treenotation/pau)

The second is a new language for data science that will make inroads amongst the Python/R data science crowd as well as pull Excel users over. It's a language and runtime that runs in your browser on your computer or your smart phone, and does everything locally. Nothing to install, no funny syntax to learn, the world's clean data will be at your fingertips, easy to share EDA results. [https://github.com/treenotation/ohayo](https://github.com/treenotation/ohayo)

The WHO estimates there are about 40M professionals in the healthcare industry. I've seen estimates that there are 750M Excel users. None of the TIOBE languages exceeds 20M. So I think either of those 2 alone could be bigger in 2027 in terms of user base than any language on the TIOBE top 10.

But I expect dozens of giant killer apps that will be built by startups/teams that I have no involvement with. People are exploring it in the legal space, crypto space, web form space, educational programming space, gaming space, and on and on. The ideas are there for the taking. It's going to be like the 1990's web boom all over again.

> And why will they learn (or be taught) a tree language?

Simplicity is timeless. Binary Notation is the dominant notation of our day. It's 330 years old. All of the TIOBE top 10 are under 50 years old. Binary Notation can't get simpler without sacrificing a lot of functionality. Likewise, AFAIK Tree Notation can't get simpler without sacrificing a lot of functionality. It's more akin to some universal pattern in nature than it is to a man made invention. Now, I'm not saying it's perfect and odds are high that I have screwed something up royally (you can see the earlier versions starting around 2011 called Noted and then Space to see previous critical flaws I had), and that's what I'm hoping to be the outcome of this Long Bet: someone will point out some critical flaw that I haven't seen, or some people will try, fail, and then see the potential and jump on board the train.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Reference for "tree languages" [https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.01192](https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.01192)

<comment><USER4> Don't you mean [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entish) ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is an interesting idea.

Isn't Python a tree language? Whitespace is significant...

How about YAML?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good question. As I define it no, a tree language uses white space and only white space for syntax. While both python and yaml use white space for a portion of their syntax, the bulk of their syntax is traditional BNF.</comment></comment>


"My boss admitted that he pays me next to nothing because I'm a black woman." - <AUTHOR> https://reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/6127wd/overheard_my_boss_admitting_that_he_pays_me_next/ <comment><AUTHOR> Title slightly edited due to 80 character limit.</comment>


Ask HN: What is the best way to get good at linux shell commands? - <AUTHOR>

Specifically I'm a web developer that wants to setup databases, and servers, etc, but feels totally inept for someone who has been doing web development for so long. <comment><USER2> 1) start using Git and Github for all your projects. This will force you to get good at command line basics

2) Make your own dotfiles with shortcuts. Here's mine:

<http://github.com/dylanized/dotfiles>

3) Get a VPS server and set it up. This will require you to learn a little bit of everything - FTP, web server install, libraries, more. I'm doing this now, it's a bitch!

Here's a great VPS deal I found recently, I'm setting mine up now:

[http://slickdeals.net/f/5915440-StillGoing- ChicagoVPS-2048MB...](http://slickdeals.net/f/5915440-StillGoing- ChicagoVPS-2048MB-RAM-50GB-Disk-2TB-Bandwidth-2x-IP- address-40or-30-year-4-Location-Choices)

<comment><USER3> What kinds of guides did you find helpful set up a VPS?

<comment><USER2> I am just googling things as I have to tackle them. So far it's been:

\- install git and hub

\- install node, npm, and nvm

\- create a new user for sftp access

\- give write permissions to that new user and set up my ssh keys

\- set up static file server, virtual hosts, etc (haven't gotten to this yet)

For a Lamp stack, that last bullet would be "install apache, php and mysql"...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Cmmandline Fu[1] is a good place to start to see the possibilities; then, start forcing yourself to solve daily problems on the command line that you might either solve using a scripting language or solve by manual repetition.

Working on the command line is just like writing any other software. You have to think about what you are trying to do, and decide how you will accomplish it. As you think "what do I need to do next", Google is your friend for finding the obscure command to accomplish the task.

Repeat every working day until you aren't going to Google.

1\. <http://www.commandlinefu.com/commands/browse>

<comment><USER5> Thanks for making me lose about an hour of work!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm not sure about books, but I can offer a bit of advice.

Try and get a friend who is good at Linux. Standing over the shoulder and watching someone using Bash, vim, etc helps a lot. I share some tidbit of system usage almost daily with my roommate and its done wonders for me.

<comment><USER7> I once tried doing this. My colleague was very good at vim and I though I will watch him use it. It just left me very demotivated. The speed with which he was doing things - I could not keep up. At least for me it is better to learn at my own pace and forcing my self to use it again and again until I am comfortable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> <http://linuxcommand.org/tlcl.php></comment>


Analysis of Lambda School's ISA Shows an Estimated Interest Rate of 87% - <AUTHOR> https://www.classcentral.com/report/are-isas-affordable/ <comment><USER2> Is it just me, or does this read like a hit piece on Lambda?

Disclosure: I've got two kids who are keen to consider Lambda post high school.

I don't see ANY comparative balance.

If a student goes to university, and fails, using government backed student loans they owe non defaultable debt & accumulating interest.

If a student goes to university, and graduates, using government backed student loans they owe non defaultable debt & accumulating interest.

If a student goes to Lambda and fails, they owe nothing.

If a student goes to Lambda, passes, and can't acquire a job paying above X, they owe nothing.

If a student goes to Lambda, passes, and acquires a job paying above Y, they owe Z.

I'm sure Lambda and other education providers using ISAS will face justified criticism, but the "financialisation" of Higher education has become Stage 3-5 cancer.

At the end of the day, we pay for education to purchase a future salary.

Which education providers offer a money back guarantee?

And far more importantly, which ones don't?</comment>


CDC confirms three person-to-person cases of coronavirus in the United States - <AUTHOR> https://massivesci.com/notes/coronavirus-covid19-sars2cov-cdc-centers-disease-control-prevention-update/ <comment><USER2> "they are monitoring 8,400 people for presence of the virus and have only 200 kits available to make confirmatory diagnoses."

Well that is concerning.</comment>


G+ is a failure, but here's how Google beats Facebook on social anyway. - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/05/how-google-can-beat-facebook-without-google-plus/257480/#

<comment><USER2> How many people does "The Atlantic" have promoting their articles on HN and other aggregation sites? Is it something that all the authors do?</comment>


NSA Finds New Snowden Emails: But They're Not About His 'Concerns' - <AUTHOR> https://news.vice.com/article/nsa-finds-new-snowden-emails-but-theyre-not-about-his-concerns-with-surveillance <comment><USER2> Does anybody think the FOIA results were tampered with? Or that the NSA should have better tracked emails?</comment>


Content Curation Vs. Content Creation - what is right for your business? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.swayy.co/post/49844573916/why-curate-why-create

<comment><USER2> I believe in a mix of the two. Rapid and original content creation takes resources. Whereas, only curation implies that your only value-add is as an aggregator.

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally agree, the mix of both curation and creation is a vital part of an effective content marketing strategy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Every time you misuse the word curate, a librarian cries (or shushes someone).</comment>


If you build it, they will come – but they might hate you - <AUTHOR> http://blog.lerner.co.il/build-will-come-might-hate/

<comment><USER2> That kind of reaction isn't surprising from people taking an _introductory_ class in _Python_.

Meaning that if you are the kind of people who takes an introductory class in _Python_ , with a teacher and all, you are not allowed to talk authoritatively on any software, since you probably didn't bother reading the doc of that software (remember, you're taking an introductory class in _Python_ , with all the available, free, resources in that language).

Furthermore, if a couple of days are enough to change your opinion on a piece of software, this means you haven't bothered really looking into that software, and had a childish reactionary judgement towards said software in the first place (if you learned what this software can do in two days, it means you learned more in two days than you already knew, which means you haven't looked into the software, really).

So it depends. You can't please everyone, especially not people who dismiss stuff without even doing the minimum required reading.

My bet would be that only a couple of people in that class really tried Git, and the others just echoed whatever they've heard about it just to seem "in the know".

<comment><AUTHOR> FYI, the people who were taking my intro Python class each had 10-20 years of professional experience as a C, C++, or Java developer. So we're not talking about people who are new to software, or to software engineering.

I've been teaching Python (and Ruby, PostgreSQL, and Git) classes for many years now. When I teach such classes, I don't pretend that the information I'm giving them is secret or special. It's all available online, and for free, as you point out. My job, as I see it, is to give them context, insights, and exercises that will help them understand the technology in question faster than they could do on their own. (Hmm, sounds like a quote out of Vygotsky's theories of learning...)

In the case of Git, my impression is that someone in the company's management said, "You guys are all experienced developers, and have used a number of version-control systems. Here's a cheat sheet for working with Git. Go!" And because no one had taken the time to gain some perspective or thoughts, they tried to use Git in the wrong way, and were frustrated by it.

The thing is, I don't blame people who have a hard time understanding a piece of software. I blame the software for not being easier to understand and more accessible. So yes, all of these experienced engineers could have learned Git on their own, and that would have solved their problems. But they shouldn't have to do so, and they didn't do so. Now, given that I made some nice money teaching them Git, I'm not going to complain too much. But if Git were just a smidgen more usable, more people would embrace and use it, rather than expressing frustration and anger.

<comment><USER2> Hi, reuven..

I am well aware these guys were experienced (obvious from your post). I am also well aware of the rationale that your job is getting them up to speed in a relatively short time (think diode current function, your job would be to drop them at the conduction voltage).

My comment was that, there are some people, as bright as they may be, who dismiss things in a reactionary manner (which is what you said: someone probably gave them a cheat sheet, and they didn't bother looking further into it).

My comment wasn't on competence, it was on intellectual laziness which takes the right from someone to speak about a certain topic, if he had not done his homework first.

You only talk about things you know.</comment></comment></comment>


The metrics behind Spotify's IPO - <AUTHOR> https://blog.chartmogul.com/metrics-behind-spotifys-ipo/ <comment><USER2> The article compares Amazon Prime music with Spotify... I'm a prime member and enjoy many of the advantages it comes with, but Prime Music is not one of them. It's horrible! A few months ago I thought I would give it a try and only use Prime Music because... why pay for two services? After about one month of use, I went back to spotify. The prime player UI is no good, the music selection is horrible, the music recommendation service never recommended anything new. Finding new music is hard, finding less known bands is very hard.

I pay for the Spotify family plan and it has been a great experience.

I will continue to use prime for shipping, storage, and shows. But for music, so far, Spotify is the only service that checks all the marks.

<comment><USER3> After reading so many good things about spotify, I gave it a spin for the first time this past week. It actually is the best music streaming service I've used before, but I'm still not going to subscribe.

New albums on CD are nearly universally under $10 now, and used CDs are even cheaper, so the price of Spotify is more than an album per month. That's a very steep price, and ultimately I think I'm happier buying 15 CDs per year than paying Spotify's subscription fees.

I don't see such high royalties are sustainable if Spotify can't be profitable under them.

<comment><USER4> Whoa dude are you serious? You still use CDs?

I think for most people this is a non-starter, maybe you convert them to MP3s and sync them to all your devices?

Right now I use Spotify and can listen to my music at work, home, or on the go using my phone. And that's fine with me. I don't pay for Spotify though which means I have to listen to ads and their mobile experience isn't as good.

<comment><USER3> Yes I convert them to MP3s (well ogg) and sync them to my devices. Other than my bluray player, I don't have a working CD player in my house (my 3 disc changer separate died a few years ago).

In any event, DRM free MP3s are usually within about $1 of the album price, and many of the places that sell MP3s have some option to stream from their cloud storage. I go with the shiny plastic discs because a) I'm a Luddite and b) some genres of music have audible distortions in mp3 (mainly pre-echo!) that I find bothersome when listening with headphones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A minor nitpick in the article, the $12.99 Amazon prime subscription does not cover their spotify competitor streaming service. I've always thought this was a bit odd given that it does include a netflix-esque amount of streamable video content. If I had to guess, I imagine it's all related back to the royalties situation in music. You do get "Prime Music", but it's not the Spotify competitor, that would be Amazon Music Unlimited. That service is an additional $7.99 if you're a Prime member.

eBooks are also mentioned there, but you don't get a huge library for being a Prime member either. Rather, it's a selection of ~1000 written things (books, comics, magazines) that is constantly rotating. Kindle Unlimited is another $9.99/month. You can do the Kindle library thing as a prime member, but that's one book a month drawing from a similar pool as Kindle Unlimited, which often doesn't have current best sellers anyways.

I guess props to Amazon for being so confusing in their myriad content subscription options that the author couldn't get it right. To get the same kind of all-you-can-consume options that spotify provides across the different media mentioned it's actually ~$30/month. Still strikes me as odd how "cheap" TV and movies seem to be in this model. I'm very curious about that now.

<comment><USER6> Hi, author here!

Thanks for the correction on this -- I'll update the article with correct info. I'm not a Prime subscriber and the information on Prime benefits are completely intransparent.

And if I can't easily figure that out, it's unlikely that average consumer Joe will. The _perceived_ value of each offering is the point here.

<comment><USER7> >The _perceived_ value of each offering is the point here.

Ah yes. The creed of American media: The truth doesn't matter. All that matters is what the masses can be convinced to believe.

<comment><USER8> >"Ah yes. The creed of American media ..."

This statement regarding "perceived value" has nothing to do with "American media", "fake news" truth distorting or even politics.

It's baffling that you have chosen to stake such claims on the author.

Perceived value pricing is actually a marketing strategy. Its used in factoring pricing for everything from gym memberships, to luxury good and delivery services.

see: [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/perceived- value.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/perceived-value.asp)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't understand why Spotify hasn't gone the Netflix way and started their own label to produce and release the music themselves. Their margins are severely cut by licensing and since the labels hold the rights to the content they might be convinced to sign better deals with competitors who have other revenue streams to subsidize a music venture that isn't making money.

<comment><USER10> The statistics point towards users wanting music from the big four labels. This may be one of the reasons they have double downed recently on their discovery products. If they can continue to divert user interest to artists from less expensive labels, it's a win/win. (Former Spotify employee, have no idea what I'm talking about).

<comment><USER11> I can't say in my 37 years of life, that I've ever considered what label a band was on, before I listened to them. I couldn't even name four big labels. The statistics point that way, because the four biggest, have the most artists under them.

<comment><USER12> Labels are a great way to find new music. Smaller ones typically have much tighter, more strongly thematic curation. Often, if I really enjoy an artist, I'll browse the rest of the labels offerings.

This doesn't work for Sony BMG of course, but consider a label like Ghostly International. Come for Tycho, find Com Truise, Lord Raja, Gold Panda, Shigeto, others).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As a customer since a long time I agree that Spotify should become a platform, but I doubt they will succeed due to how they shipped previous features. Anyway, the three features I want:

\- Lyrics, and integrating Genius for 1/100th of the tracks in the catalogue is not enough.

\- Concert tickets, in a smart and transparent way. A musician I'm listening to a lot is coming in Germany? I want a notification, a way to share it with my Spotify friends, and a way to pay in one click.

\- Listen to songs that are only available on Spotify. I am so pissed off by Apple doing that and I think it sucks, but Netflix did it and seeing exclusive versions/remixs/concerts via Spotify would make the platform incredibly valuable to me.

Sounds hard? Well doing an IPO and competing against Apple, Amazon, and Google is not easy. The smart playlists are great, the brand is valued, time to go further.

<comment><USER14> Number 2/3 sort of already exist. At least, the notifications part for concerts, and the "Spotify singles" for the exclusive tracks (it's not really the sense you meant, though).

Being able to buy the concert tickets simply and easily would be killer though. Especially if it meant I wasn't paying $14 "convenience fees"

<comment><USER15> For #2 if they could partner with someone like Dice (possibly UK only) that would be great. Really easy to use app, no fees and the QR ticket only appears a few hours before the gig to prevent touts. I think you can even return tickets if there are people on the 'waiting list' although I've never tried that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Can anyone give some insights on how it compares to Apple Music or Google Play Music.

With 9.99 you also get YouTube Red and the selection for play music seems to be huge when compared with Amazon Prime Music (At least enough for me). If I don't have a song in play, I can use YouTube app and it plays in background. This is important for regional songs as Spotify does not have a huge library for non English songs but YouTube has almost everything. I agree that the quality is not that great with YouTube, but that's something is not of a big deal for me. Does anyone feel like this?

What's your metrics to decide between Play, Apple and Spotify?

<comment><USER17> Play Music's apps are very immature and half-baked feeling compared to the alternatives.

Apple is better in that regard, but its app distribution is massively limited compared to Spotify or even Google Play.

<comment><USER18> I agree. Spotify is very strong here in Europe and it's super convenient to follow friends who are better than finding cool songs than I am.

I was a free user for a long time and got the subscription last Christmas. You can tell they really spend time on UX. Clear examples of this are the running playlists that adapt to your speed. We can't really expect Google to match that, it's Spotify's core business after all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Spotify doesn't make the most amount of money for the record companies by plays. It makes most of the money for record companies by having sold them stock in Spotify. The Needle Drop talked about this recently - artists could have gotten more money, but record labels wanted equity positions in Spotify rather than higher fees.

</comment><comment><USER20> >> A $12.99 Amazon Prime subscription gets me streaming music, streaming video, e-books, fast shipping and a whole host of other benefits. A $10.99 Spotify subscription gets me… well, Spotify.

I think on pricing Spotify shines with the Family plan which reduces the cost significantly. Plus, those $12.99 only gets you the Spotify free equivalent from Amazon. The Amazon Music Unlimited is another $7.99

<comment><USER21> Here in Europe it seems to be 9.99euros for Amazon Music Unlimited, which is exactly the same as a Spotify subscription (not even counting the Family plan you mentioned).

What's odd is that my Amazon Prime subscription already gives me unlimited access to Prime Videos without additional charge, I'm surprised that they use a different business model here.</comment></comment>