An Upgrade to SyntaxNet, New Models and a Parsing Competition - <AUTHOR> https://research.googleblog.com/2017/03/an-upgrade-to-syntaxnet-new-models-and.html <comment><USER2> I've been fighting Tensorflow in the last couple of days to try an application on it, never before have I seen such a convoluted build process and a maze of dependencies. The best manual on getting tensorflow with CUDA support up and running is here:

[http://www.nvidia.com/object/gpu-accelerated-applications- te...](http://www.nvidia.com/object/gpu-accelerated-applications-tensorflow- installation.html)

But it is a little bit out of date when it comes to version numbers.

If you're going to try TensorBox ([https://github.com/TensorBox/TensorBox](https://github.com/TensorBox/TensorBox)) it will get a bit harder still because of conflicts and build issues with specific versions of TensorFlow.

There has to be an easier way to distribute a package.

That said, all this is super interesting and Google really moved the needle by opensourcing TensorFlow and other ML packages.

<comment><USER3> It is not a good idea to compile TensorFlow by your own unless you really need it (for example for TensorFlow serving). Python packages are the way to go.

<comment><USER4> This is a bit unfortunate, in a real sense. I mean, I already build enough software, so I'm not sad on missing out. But here's the thing: TensorFlow actually installed _great_ on Windows and it took less than 10 minutes to get running, once I had Python3 installed, even with GPU support. Even worked awesome in VS Code, out of the box, with autocomplete in the python mode. Even a baby like me got started easily.

But it's a bit disappointing to hear that the build system is something of a nightmare, if I ever wanted to contribute myself. There's always plenty of things to help with, I don't care about the cutting edge of machine learning (I'm happy to submit docs, examples, etc)... Then again, the TF people can't just nerd around on their build system, for dorks like me to maybe write some patches every once in a while. Always great to make it easier, though.

<comment><USER2> For me the issue with such things is not so much the hassle as much as it is long term stability of an environment that I come to depend on. If I can't reproduce it from archived sources then there is a good chance that at some point in the future my stuff will suddenly and in-explicably stop working after some minor system update.

And python has a huge problem with this anyway. (Or, to put it probably more accurately, I have a huge problem with python in this way, historically my python code has had a relatively short shelf life compared to my C code (or even my PHP code)).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Given how many areas NLP can be applied to, I can only imagine all of these future internal project proposals where someone has to explain to some C-suite exec how they are going to revolutionize the business with Parsey McParseface. Or better yet, when they have to budget a big upgrade to the "DRAGNN based ParseySaurus". Fun times ahead.

<comment><USER6> Sounds like a way to troll other organizations and competitors, imagine the conversations:

 _-(Eng) We need to switch to this new NLP framework_

 _\- (VP) Ok, why? Which one is it?_

 _\- (Eng) Huh, it 's called Parsey McParseface, developed by ..._

 _\- (VP) WTF? Don 't waste my time with jokes, go build your own_

 _\- (Eng) But ..._

 _\- (VP) Meeting 's over._

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> See also: spaCy, which is an open-source NLP framework that has some integration with Keras as well: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13874787](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13874787)

...and apparently will release a major version update _today_. Ouch.

<comment><USER8> Why ouch? :). It's not like there's a zero-sum game here. It's great to see more things being released, so the ecosystem can continue to improve.

I do wish SyntaxNet were a bit easier to use. A lot of people have asked for SyntaxNet as a backend for spaCy, and I'd love to be using it in a training ensemble. When I tried this last year, I had a lot of trouble getting it to work as a library. I spent days trying to pass it text in memory from Python, and it seemed like I would have to write a new C++ tensorflow op. Has anyone gotten this to work yet?

<comment><USER9> There is [https://github.com/livingbio/syntaxnet_wrapper](https://github.com/livingbio/syntaxnet_wrapper) that does the job fairly well (I also spent days trying to be able to pass to SyntaxNet different textes without having to reload the model). Warning: installation is a bit difficult.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Python 3 support is not available yet." [1]. It's only supported in Python 2.7, Why?

[1] [https://github.com/tensorflow/models/tree/master/syntaxnet](https://github.com/tensorflow/models/tree/master/syntaxnet)

<comment><USER11> Probably because Google still mostly uses Python 2.7 internally.

<comment><USER10> Yikes! Not being to run on Py3k is a deal breaker for me.

<comment><USER12> It's definitely an unfortunate situation. The community has been coalescing around Python 3 in the last couple years, but Google is obviously encumbered by all its legacy Python 2.7 code. Their SyntaxNet library still doesn't have Python 3 support a year after release. I'm wondering what their long-term plans are given 2.7 EOL in 2020.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This looks amazing. I'm especially curious how well it will work at identifying Gene/chemical nomenclature since it is fairly consistent like English spelling. For named entity recognition in biomedical text this could be really useful!

</comment><comment><USER14> We changed the title from "Google open-sources Tensorflow-based framework for NLP", which appears misleading, given that it happened last May: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686029](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11686029).

On HN the idea is to rewrite titles only to make them _less_ misleading (or less baity). Please see [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

<comment><AUTHOR> dang, sorry if this seemed misleading. In my humble opinion, the blog title does not do full justice to the new release, primarily since it carries a new framework within SyntaxNet:

[https://github.com/tensorflow/models/blob/master/syntaxnet/g...](https://github.com/tensorflow/models/blob/master/syntaxnet/g3doc/DRAGNN.md)

This new DRAGNN framework is what I thought the folks here would want to know. Perhaps I should have linked to the github page, rather than the blog announcement.

<comment><USER14> Ah, I see. Probably a post pointing to that framework would have been a better idea. It never fails to surprise me, but discussion tends to be directed almost entirely by what's in a submission title.

For the same reason, it probably doesn't make sense to change the current thread to point to that Github page now, since that would orphan the existing discussion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Very interesting release.

The bit about guessing the part of speech, stem, etc. for previously unseen words _should_ (I think) make it much more useful in contexts that succumb to neologizing, verbing nouns, nouning verbs, and so on (such as business writing, technical writing, academic papers, science fiction & fantasy, slang, etc.).

I wonder how well it would do at parsing something that seems deliberately impenetrable, like TimeCube rants, or postmodern literary criticism.

<comment><USER16> It's much more useful in _all_ contexts - every problem/task has a 100 words that are very common and important there while being rare and unknown in general; the problem is that for every niche that's _different_ 100 terms.

<comment><USER15> Right, except in terms of neologizing I was referring to contexts where many individual _texts_ are trying to establish a new term. So if you are trying to parse Science Fiction texts, yes there are "terms of art" that don't appear outside of that field (eg. "blaster"), but often there are terms that don't appear _anywhere_ else, not even in other works by the same author.

Other pathological cases are business books trying to coin a term or twist existing words into new meanings (eg. "cloud"), verbing nouns (incentivize), nouning verbs (likes, learnings), and so on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> For those of us who aren't developers but maybe more aptly called "hackers" (cause we hack stuff together even though we're operating out of our league, sometimes we get stuff to work). I am wondering, is there a even higher level guide to using Tensor Flow. I am currently growing Sweet Peas in my office in enclosed containers that automanage environment, nutrition and water. I have the capaability to log a lot of data from a lot of sensors, including images. I have _no idea_ how I would even get started using Tensor Flow, but it would be cool if I could run experiments on environmental conditions and find optimal conditions for this sweet pea cultivar. Maybe I'm talking nonsense. Let me ask a more basic question, how might one log and create data for use with Tensor Flow. How might Tensor Flow be applied to robotic botanical situations?

<comment><USER7> The short answer is to skip TensorFlow entirely and use/learn Keras for a high-level overview; then you can learn top-down if you need to use/look at TF code directly.

Another HN thread has good tutorials for simple uses of Tensorflow: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464496](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13464496)

However, NNs are optimal for text/image data as they can learn the features. If your data features are already known, you don't necessarily need to use Tensorflow/Keras at all, and you'll have a easier time using conventional techniques like linear/logistic regression and xgboost.

<comment><USER18> sklearn has this flowchart for what machine learning method to use: [http://scikit-learn.org/stable/_static/ml_map.png](http://scikit- learn.org/stable/_static/ml_map.png)

<comment><USER7> The flowchart predates NNs/GBTs which are Swiss-army knives, which is another reason why using either of them is sometimes considered cheating.

<comment><USER18> NNs are much older than this chart. They aren't terribly good at problems like this because they tend to overfit more than other methods. They need lots of data to generalize well. They only really excel when the data has regular structure that can be exploited by weight sharing (like CNNs to images or RNNs to time series.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is definitely a game changer!

It's a very interesting research carried out by Google's research team and I believe this will be especially beneficial for future speech translation algorithms that would bring us a whole new, fresh experience with the way we converse with Alexa, Google Home, Siri, and many more.

If you need to install TensorFlow onto your Windows 10 computer then here's a great guide which I have followed quiet a few times. :)

[http://saintlad.com/install-tensorflow-on- windows/](http://saintlad.com/install-tensorflow-on-windows/)

</comment><comment><USER20> Hoping this will quickly make into someone's home grown self-hosted version of Alexa.

Alexa, turn the lights on in the kitchen.

Alexa, turn on the kitchen light.

Alexa, light up the kitchen.

Should all accomplish the same task using this framework.

<comment> squeaky-clean I've been slowly working on my own simple home "Alexa" using mostly CMUSphinx for the voice detection. Honestly my most successful methods involved the least amount of complex NLP.

Just simply treating the sentence as a bag of words and looking for "on" or "off" or "change" (and their synonyms) and the presence of known smart objects works extremely well. I could say "Hey Marvin, turn on the lights and TV", or "Hey Marvin, turn the lights and TV on", or even "Hey Marvin, on make lights and TV."

(It's named Marvin it after the android from The Hitchhiker's Guide, my eventual goal is to have it reply with snarky/depressed remarks).

Adding 30 seconds of "memory" of the last state requested also made it seem a million times smarter and turns requests into a conversation rather than a string of commands. If it finds a mentioned smart object with no state mentioned, it assume the previous one.

"Hey Marvin, turn on the lights." _lights turn on_ "The TV too." _tv turns on_

The downside to this approach is I would be showing it off to friends, and it could mis trigger. "Marvin turn off the lights." _lights turn off_ "That's so cool, so it controls your TV, too?" _TV turns off_ But it was mostly not an issue in real usage.

Ultimately I've got the project on hold for now because I can't find a decent, non-commercial way of converting voice to text. I'd really rather not send my audio out to Amazon/Google/MS/IBM. Not just because of privacy, but cost and "coolness" factor (I want as much as possible processed locally and open- source).

CMUSphinx's detection was mostly very bad. I couldn't even do complex NLP if I wanted because it picks up broken/garbled sentences. I currently build a "most likely" sentence by looping through sphinx's 20 best interpretations of the sentence and grabbing all the words that are likely to be commands or smart objects. I tried setting up Kaldi, but didn't get it working after a weekend and haven't tried again since. I don't really know any other options to use aside from CMUSphone, Kaldi, or a butt SaaS.

I've wanted to add a text messaging UI layer to it. Maybe I'll use that as an excuse to try playing with ParseySaurus.

<comment><USER20> > I've got the project on hold for now because I can't find a decent, non- > commercial way of converting voice to text. I'd really rather not send my > audio out to Amazon/Google/MS/IBM

Same concern here... so my voice->text method is via android's google voice - forced to offline mode. The offline mode is surprisingly good.

Re mis triggers... I also have opencv running on the same android. It only activates the voice recognition when I am actually looking directly at the android device (an old phone).

<comment> squeaky-clean > text method is via android's google voice - forced to offline mode. The > offline mode is surprisingly good.

I actually tried this at one point with a wall-mounted tablet before trying Sphinx. It is surprisingly good for offline, probably the best offline I've tried yet outside of dedicated software like Dragon. But it doesn't meet my open criteria, so I'm hoping to find something better.

I'll most likely give up on the requirements of it needing to be local and open, and use Sphinx for hotword detection to send the audio out to AWS for processing.

> Re mis triggers... I also have opencv running on the same android. It only > activates the voice recognition when I am actually looking directly at the > android device (an old phone).

That's an awesome idea :) I haven't gotten around to playing with anything vision based yet. But I've thought of 'simple' projects like that, which would add a lot to the perceived intelligence. Figuring out the number of people in a room would be another useful idea I think. The AI could enter a guest mode when there is more than 1 person in the room, or when it detects faces that aren't mine, or something similar.

<comment><USER20> > doesn't meet my open criteria

With the leaps and bounds being made in ml these days it can't be long before magnitudes better open source voice recognition becomes available. I gave Sphinx a try but it was horribly disappointing.

For me, the combination of google voice (offline) and Ivona voice (Amy) is pretty damn good for my android/python/arduino based home AI.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've been rummaging through the docs on DRAGONN but can't seem to find proper installation/run instructions. There is a Google Cloud installation, but I want to just run on my laptop for now against the pre-trained files. Can't seem to get started with DRAGONN.

<comment><USER21> Thank you thank you Ivan Bogatyy for fixing the docker run instructions. I think it was missing the docker image name before! :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> > and to allow neural-network architectures to be created dynamically during > processing of a sentence or document.

Oh lord, is this the spark that lights the google skynet powder keg

<comment><USER16> Not yet, you'd need to apply the same approach to agentive (decisions on how to act) problems as opposed to classification tasks; _then_ you'd have the spark that lights the google skynet powder keg.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I have tried to run Syntaxnet as library but I found it very difficult (lot of dependencies).</comment>


Show HN: Quento.com - <AUTHOR> https://quento.com/ <comment><USER2> I've been looking for something like this, because I rarely use mental math anymore. I'll use this on the tube. :)</comment>


Contrarian Investing - <AUTHOR> http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2010/09/contrarian-investing.html

<comment><USER2> It seems Fred is having something of an existential investment crisis! Would it make sense to double down in existing positions? (seeing as they were contrarian in the past...)</comment>


RFP for IANA Functions Contract (Internet DNS Management) - <AUTHOR> http://ntia.doc.gov/other-publication/2012/request-proposal-iana-functions-contract

<comment><AUTHOR> As an addendum, ICANN derives its authority to manage the domain name system from the IANA contract (which is now being RFP'd). If the contract is awarded to another entity, this could be a significant change.</comment>


Get a color name from any RGB combination  - <AUTHOR> http://gauth.fr/2011/09/get-a-color-name-from-any-rgb-combination/

<comment><USER2> Well this is funny and cool to see, I spent the better part of Sunday playing with the name that color script (<http://chir.ag/projects/ntc/>) and jPicker and I compiled a larger color list for it using a couple additional sources. That particular script's color list only requires the name and hex value of the color which is a little more compact. I don't see any other major differences though. It's handy to know that the Wikipedia list has duplicate values for different names (Chestnut Rose = Indian Red for example), looks like your script just grabs the first match it finds.

I was wondering what to do with darker colors as they are less represented in terms of color names. So, when you pick a random darkish color the accuracy reduces because there are less names to choose from.

I was thinking perhaps the best solution would be in these cases to extrapolate a lighter variation of the picked color and display that color with a measure of its darkness (30% darker purple). Right now, if you pick a color like #291c36 you'll get dark jungle green when it's a dark purple. Any thoughts on tackling that problem?

<comment><AUTHOR> I also noticed the problem with darker colors. I introduced several ideas in the article: using a different metric or a different colorspace. This could help, but if we really have a lower points density in the darker zones, the good solution might be to find even more colors on the internet.

Your proposed solution looks to be a mix of changing the color space and the metric. Maybe we could use HSL/HSV with a metric that reduces the weight of some component. It could therefore consider less the fact that the three components are high/low, but focus on the "real" color side.

<comment><USER2> Increasing the dataset of color names doesn't really work as well to address this problem in my opinion. I looked at a pretty large set of colors of 5000+ and I discarded it because it just introduced too many exotic sounding names only a color expert can tell apart - it wasn't an UI improvement and it still doesn't give consistent results for the darkest and lightest colors.

I think working with HSL values works better in principle. Just adjusting the lightness value can be used to arrive at a more sensible color description. The most common lightness values for color names hover around 50% (at least in the 3000+ dataset I compiled). One solution is to have a simple formula that takes in account how accurate the nearest color name match is and if it is too inaccurate, to find the color name for the color's HSL with the L adjusted to 50%. I guess you could call it staying true to the hue. I think that would make the color naming script even more useful though.

<comment><AUTHOR> One solution could be to use several points for each label (color name). For instance, we could use a limited set of color names (red, green, blue, etc) but have a lot of points associated to this labels. For example, different points like #07250b (that is, in my opinion, missclassified) and #51f665 could share a same label: green. The main problem is that I'm not sure It is possible to find such a dataset on the internet. Maybe we can build one from sites like <http://cloford.com/resources/colours/500col.htm>, removing the numbers from each color name.

With several points for each label, It will give us the possibility of using a 3NN, for example, instead of a 1NN classifier. It should impact also on the results, but I'm not sure it will really improve the results.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The trouble with these names is that you have things like #7a937d comes up as Xanadu. And there are other weird names in there like "Blanched Almond" and "Bubble gum" which are fine if everyone knows you're talking about a colour, but if you're trying to build, say, an image tagging script you don't really want "bubble gum" being put as the tag instead of "pink".

<comment><AUTHOR> As explained in the article, you need to choose the dataset that fits your needs. And you're right, a smaller dataset with more common names will be more useful in some cases.

<comment><USER4> You may want to try using the colr.org API:

<http://www.colr.org/api.html>

The entire colr.org dataset isn't available, but you can make ajax requests for individual hex values, typically in less than 100ms.

The dataset should also include the standard CSS and HTML color names. This was part of the initial buildout several years ago.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> EasyRGB is nice for matching them to actual paint colors and names: <http://easyrgb.com/index.php?X=SEEK>

</comment><comment><USER6> Have you tried with CSS color names?

<comment><AUTHOR> It looks to be a subset of the color list from Wikipedia. If you use it then you will have less accurate results.</comment></comment>


A place to send your friends when they ask for "help making a website" - <AUTHOR>

My company does in-person training to help non-technical people do technical things. We recorded one of our classes called "Basic Web Development". If any of your non-programmer friends wants "some help making a website", here's a place you can send him/her (link in comments).<p>The link provides free access to the course. Hopefully this saves you a little time as the go-to tech person in your social circles, and now you can read more on HN. It also helps me get feedback so I can improve our future courses, feedback which I appreciate very much! <comment><USER2> I send them to squarespace. 99% of the time it is sufficient for most people.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's that link: [https://www.udemy.com/basic-web-crash- course/?couponCode=sho...](https://www.udemy.com/basic-web-crash- course/?couponCode=showhn)</comment>


Ask HN: Help 22M people get unemployment and stimulus claim. State/IRS needs you - <AUTHOR> Title says all.
If you work in tech and want to help the >22M folks in pain (many backlogged due to technical errors), the IRS and state unemployment office could use your help with their software and infrastructure.
If you want to step up and offer your help, Google Form here: https://bit.ly/2xrZ0Q9
Related post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22901660 <comment><USER2> You seem to be asking me to believe that a random google form at a random address that asks for personal information will somehow lead to millions of people getting aid.

Your heart may mean well, but this looks like a fishing expedition.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, anyone want to help me throw together a better landing page with nice designs, and the same input fields?</comment></comment>


New 'Hello' Social Network Backed by Google - <AUTHOR> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/hello-social-network-google-backing,30150.html <comment><USER2> All these new social networks make us antisocial...</comment>


Show HN: Runnable Code Snippets in more than 20 languages - <AUTHOR> https://tech.io/snippet <comment><USER2> Runnable Code Snippets=Hello worlds

566 of them (not runnable in browser): [https://helloworldcollection.github.io/](https://helloworldcollection.github.io/)

Previous post (to give context):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980764](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14980764)</comment>


What are folks using for AJAX functionality in PHP? - <AUTHOR>

I've got an experimental project I'm working on with PHP (I'm new to the language/environment).<p>What are folks using for simpler AJAX development in PHP?  I need relatively simple UI things, but hate reinventing the wheel. <comment><USER2> There is plenty to choose from:

Prototype - <http://www.prototypejs.org>

jQuery - <http://jquery.com>

MooTools - <http://mootools.net>

The simplest PHP-ajax library is probably going to be xajax (<http://xajaxproject.org>)

</comment><comment><USER3> Yahoo's User Interface Library (YUI) - <http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/> \- is pretty good.</comment>


Sarah Lacy's counter argument to PG's 6.4% point - <AUTHOR> http://www.sarahlacy.com/sarahlacy/2008/08/6-can-be-a-lot.html

<comment><USER2> _Yes, that makes sense, logically. But it ignores the plain fact that there's no way to know if Y Combinator improves the company any more or less than on- the-fly learning would or—better yet—free mentorship from someone who has been there. In other words, maybe your startup is 10% better after going through an incubator._

Wait, that's it? The phrase 'average outcome' ignores the fact that there are multiple possible outcomes? I don't think 'The Equity Equation' meant to imply that the question was "Y Combinator funding, or doing nothing," -- it was about getting funding versus alternatives. So the entire criticism seems rooted in coming up with _ex post_ reasons to hate YC.

I am trying to read Lacy's book, because it's informative. But the writing is excruciating. Next time, I hope she does the same interviews, but then hands off the notes to someone who can actually write.

<comment><USER3> Well, I thought the main point she was raising (perhaps muddled by her own writing) was simply that PG's assertion that YC does in fact improve your odds by X% might not be true, and even if it is true, you may have other means-- that have no equity cost--to realize the same benefits that YC offers.

Totally agree about her book: the subject (the entrepreneurs) is quite interesting, but she gets in her own way with her poor writing ability (and where the hell was her editor, or don't those exist anymore?) She also seems to pretty much take her interviewees at face value.

It is a bit ironic that on her blog post she mentions she wouldn't be where she is today if she had gone to journalism school; um, yes, it's entirely possible she might have become an actual journalist.

<comment><USER4> Dead on with "pretty much take her interviewees at face value." I'm described in the book as "not willing to work for stock" (re: digg). Not sure who made that up, but she made no attempt to verify it with me. If she had, I would have told her that it wasn't in any way true.

There is a paragraph in the book where she talks about "founders' mythology" that I guess functions as a disclaimer of sorts. It should have been included on the dust jacket.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The biggest risk (and most likely outcome) with any tech startup is financial failure. The smart strategy is to do things that will boost your odds of success. Hoarding equity is rarely a good way to do that -- you will most likely end up owning 100% of nothing.

<comment><USER6> I have thought a lot about this, mainly because of my hoarding mentality that I am trying to purge. Think about the great successes in startups -- they seem to come from people sharing and building off of other each others ideas. Take one person away from the early teams of any major tech company and the odds of success drop to nil. Hate to admit it, but this line of thinking lends some credence to the 'single founder fail' conclusion of YC that I disagree with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> AFAICT, Sarah Lacy's counter argument paraphrased is: Okay, so if Y Combinator can improve your chances by 10%, then the small equity cut is arguably a fair price. But you can get the same mentoring for free! The free stuff might even be as good!

So is her argument that paying for anything you can get for free is a rip-off? No, she's not even saying that. She's saying it might possibly be a bad deal. That's not even a counter argument. That's FUD.

<comment><USER8> wtf do you expect? She's a sensationalist. A fine journalist who deserves to work at the National Enquirer or elsewhere!

<comment><USER9> Wow.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The cost/benefit of giving up equity or taking VC funding is highly personal, situational decision. The correct answer is "It depends".

The folks that YC funds, by and large, have no business experience at all, so it is likely well worth it for them. But you can "go to school" (the school of hard knocks, that is) to learn those things YC brings too. That learning process takes time - time you may not have.

Ironically, in a serious downturn you turn out to have plenty of time. Companies like Flickr came out in a fairly relaxed time - nothing much was happening anyway. They actually took their time (Flickr was a side project of a site they called Game Never Ending which was on for a long time ...)

By comparison, we are now in a relatively frenzied times, and success is necessarily harder to achieve, so every bit of assistance you can get may be worth it.

To visualize the kind of "no body cares" times, look at the business of starting a classy restaurant right about now (with restaurant chains all around folding). You have to be pretty passionate to keep going at it. Funding? Unlikely.

<comment><USER11> _The folks that YC funds, by and large, have no business experience at all, so it is likely well worth it for them. But you can "go to school" (the school of hard knocks, that is) to learn those things YC brings too. That learning process takes time - time you may not have._

I don't fully agree with this, mainly because nobody can teach you business or anything close to business in 3 months. True, YC gives you a gist of how a start up really works and how you need to go through that process but that might not work out for you mainly because there are tons of reasons for success and failure and we hardly know them.

To me YC is like an identity, in a world where everyone is same it tries to make you stand out from others. If you want me to compare YC with Hollywood, the position of YC is something like Godfather. Paul Graham is to Hackers what Don Corleone was for Italian immigrants. He pretty much gives you an identity, mentorship and protection for a tiny company share. Think of the Italian Immigrants if they didn't have Godfather, they would have been badly exploited by the system and would have ended up as nobody's. Paul Graham takes the position of Don Corleone and saves Hackers from being exploted in a big bad world of Start ups and Business by being there for you. This is my personal definition of YC.

Hence the start of YC Mafia.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Good to see Sarah Lacy got her numbers wrong again...

 _mentioning they take a rather hefty cut of a startup for a comparatively small $5,000_

Journalist Mathematics strikes again, I mentioned this yesterday..

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=281780>

Glad to see Sarah doesn't let me down :)

</comment><comment><USER13> "perhaps it's more like taking out an insurance policy, and most of the best entrepreneurs don't like insurance or safety nets. That's why they are entrepreneurs!"

Does she actually know any entrepreneurs? Despite all of the ideological fights on this site, the most consistent piece of advice I've run across here is: Make sure you have health insurance. Get high deductible policy with low premiums if you're poor, but _get some freaking insurance_.

<comment><USER14> I don't think you understand just how poor poor can be.

I haven't had health insurance for almost 10 years now. I do not regret this at all, nor do I see any point to paying any money at all for a high- deductible policy in which the insurance will only become useful in the most extreme -- and unlikely -- of cases.

Health insurance companies put a lot of effort into coming up with ways to not cover your bills, and for that privilege, you are subjected to seeing only the professionals that the insurance companies have "blessed", no small fraction of which aren't taking new patients.

I would never do business with any company that treated me that way, and health insurance is no different.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm confused. Are both 'affect' and 'effect' valid in the case of "... have a huge * on ...".

It seems as though 'affect' was misused there because the usage is also the definition and so she should have written: "greatly affects" or "has a huge effect".

<comment> daniel-cussen No, you're right, it's "has a huge _effect_ on something." She could have proofread.

<comment><USER16> How does this girl have a job?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "1% of Facebook is also worth hundreds of millions (at least)."

What valuation does she give Facebook? Even the most outlandish valuation ever given to them (one nobody sane would use for anything) puts 1% at 150m.

<comment><USER18> Sarah Lacy tends to Troll her own articles, I've noticed, not only with abysmal writing, but also using math in, shall we say, a rather haphazard manner.

You do have to admit her courage in writing a supposedly carefully considered analysis of incubator funding of startups by someone lacking a firm grasp of the financial characteristics of startups.

But, I guess that is what makes Sarah Lacy, Sarah Lacy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I was pretty disappointed by this article; I'd expected to see something compelling here and there just wasn't anything there.

I try not to be swayed by proofreading issues and the like, but starting the article off implying that the Paul Graham "Equity" essay (which is clearly labeled to be from July 2007) was written a few days ago as a response to her colleague's Y Combinator critique set a really bad tone for the article.

</comment><comment><USER20> "I'm not trying to beat up on incubators, but most of the entrepreneurs I respect the most would argue they were better off putting off raising money for as long as possible."

That's not Max Levchin's philosophy, whom presumably she respects. He raised $8m for Slide before they even launched anything.

<comment><USER21> There's also a difference between an established company taking funds and kids without any savings raising $15,000 so they can put together a prototype.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Please don't take her up on her offer PG! I get a really creepy teen drama vibe about her.

</comment><comment><USER23> For the early stage companies that YC usually invests in, I do believe participating in YC can improve their chances of success by at least 6% or 10% or whatever. If your company is already off the ground, with non-founder employees, etc, then maybe not.

Just the confidence inspired by being accepted to YC, and the smallish amount of money that allows you to quit your job is a huge benefit, to say nothing of the knowledge gained and networking opportunities.

Of course, as she points out, this can never be proved, but that doesn't make it not true.

</comment><comment><USER24> > That 6% you don't give up could wind up being a big chunk of your holdings-- > maybe even the only thing you're left with.

I've not seen a YC termsheet but this seems _really_ unlikely since YC basically gets founders stock and get diluted along with the founders. The 94:6 ratio should normally be maintained through funding rounds.

It follows that if the founders are left with nothing, they would have been 6.4% richer without YC. 1.064 * nothing = nothing.

</comment><comment><USER25> "1% of facebook is worth hundreds of millions"

Yeah, but 99% of facebook is worth tens of billions by the same logic, so hundreds of millions isn't really that much anymore.

</comment><comment><USER26> Lacy's original article refuted its own reservations, because it was, after all, about YC Demo Day startups.

There are countless other tiny hopeful startups very similar to those that appeared in YC Demo Day. But those others will not get coverage all the places the Demo Day startups did, including Lacy's blog. That single YC-sparked PR coup may have increased their chances of success, against identical non-YC competitors, by 5-10%.

And merely asking, in her public writings, if YC is a bad deal incrementally makes YC a better deal, by focusing more attention on YC companies. (This hall of mirrors makes my head hurt!)

</comment><comment><USER27> Anyone who pays any attention at all (let alone whose job involves investigating) wouldn't have made the mistake of calling YC an incubator. That just seems careless to me. I keep wanting to give Saray Lacy the benefit of the doubt but it's getting harder and harder. :/

At least she wants to talk to Paul about it. Anyone who does will realize that they've been generalizing YC incorrectly to at least some degree.

</comment><comment><USER28> I've seen this strategy with other journalists. Write a story, get a reaction directly from the main person, rebut reaction... rinse, repeat. Oddly enough, it's also the formula for trolling.

Therefore, like trolls, the best thing for YC to do is to ignore her.</comment>


Haskell Application Server: in-memory transactional applications - <AUTHOR> http://happs.org/HAppS/README.html <comment><AUTHOR> I'm planning on doing something fun with this in the next couple of months.

I think the ideal app here is a high-throughput, small-message app. Seems like I need to make a twitter clone...</comment>


Silicon Beach Draws Tech Startups to L.A. as Rents Jump - <AUTHOR> http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-16/silicon-beach-draws-startups-moving-to-l-a-as-office-rents-jump.html

<comment><USER2> The typography on this mobile version of their site is horrible. Try the print version, it's quite nice: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2012-10-16/silicon- beach...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2012-10-16/silicon-beach-draws- startups-moving-to-l-a-as-office-rents-jump.html)</comment>


A good idea with bad usage: /dev/urandom - <AUTHOR> http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2014/05/a-good-idea-with-bad-usage-devurandom.html <comment><USER2> Can we please stop cargo-culting the "fact" that /dev/random outputs raw entropy while /dev/urandom is the output of a CSPRNG? They are _both_ outputs from the _same_ CSPRNG algorithm[1].

Edit: I'm eagerly awaiting the tptacek takedown of this article. Comments like "even a regular user can run: cat /dev/random > /dev/null & cat /dev/zero > /dev/random... entropy will be degraded" do not give me confidence in this guy's understanding of the systems involved. Same with his blatant misreading of RNDZAPENTCOUNT and RNDCLEARPOOL, which simple research[2] reveals only clears the entropy _count_ and does nothing to the underlying entropy pool itself.

[1]: [http://www.2uo.de/myths-about-urandom/](http://www.2uo.de/myths-about- urandom/)

[2]: [http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.g...](http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/char/random.c#n1468)

<comment><USER3> Especially because /dev/random's ability to block when it doesn't have enough entropy is dependent on accurate entropy estimation. Since the entropy estimator isn't accurate (it can't be, it's an undecidable problem) there will be attacks possible on the entropy estimator, either causing it to block when it shouldn't (DOS) or output data with insufficient entropy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I might be mistaken, but doesn't changing /dev nodes require super user rights? If an attacker has those, he could simply overwrite your libressl binary. Or patch the kernel. Or....

<comment><USER5> Yes:

       EPERM  mode requested creation of something other than a regular
                  file, FIFO (named pipe), or UNIX domain socket, and the caller
                  is not privileged (Linux: does not have the CAP_MKNOD
                  capability); also returned if the filesystem containing
                  pathname does not support the type of node requested.

Of course there is still the theoretical problem that you could be running in a chroot where some unprivileged user has write access to the root and/or /dev so that she can create symlinks or move files around there. I don't think that should be the responsibility of the library to defend against though; but the responsibility of whoever created that chroot dir...

<comment><USER4> I agree, but it's really theoretical: If the user has write access to the chroot environment, she can just replace the binary or play tricks with the libraries. No way the (then not even run) binary can defend against that. Didn't try it, but I would guess that subverting crypto is /slightly/ easier if you can run your own code instead of just manipulating the random seeds.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Lots of errors in this article. It particularly rankles my sensibilities when he says randomness doesn't actually exist and it's just when humans can't track all the variables.

Randomness is much more interesting than that, and while it would make a lot more sense for the sake of classical mechanics, it cannot possibly be explained away so neatly according to Bell's Inequality.

<comment><USER4> Bell's inequality (plus the corresponding measurements) only rule out _local_ hidden variable theories. But yes, that paragraph was a low point.

<comment><USER6> I didn't imply otherwise.

I just didn't explicitly mention global variables because that will always remain a possibility that lurks over everything. Technically, we can never rule them out because it's possible that all the universe and all the events of universe were preordained by one massive global variable, without any particular rhyme or reason for rules and laws for mechanics of local behavior.

<comment><USER4> Oh yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to mention it because not everybody might be aware of it. I doubt the blog author had that in mind anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The second paragraph of the article is fundamentally wrong:

       Now randomness doesn't really exist. When we humans see
       something as random, it's only because we don't know or
       understand all the details. Therefore, any perceived
       randomness on your part is your inability to track all
       the variables.

(The currently accepted explanation of) quantum mechanics says otherwise. The essence of quantum mechanics is not certainly but _probability_. But this annoyed even Einstein, who famously said "God does not throw dice". Einstein was (probably) wrong about this.

Stephen Hawking says:

       God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence
       points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws
       the dice on every possible occasion. [1]

[1] [http://www.hawking.org.uk/does-god-play- dice.html](http://www.hawking.org.uk/does-god-play-dice.html)

</comment><comment><USER8> The first issue he brings up seems legit. Whter it is exploitable or not depends heavily on if an unprivileged account can trigger a read to /dev/urandom to abort early by triggering an interrupt. I don't know Linux internals well enough to know if this is the case, but since this is documented behavior it seems reasonable to concede that there could be some platform where its true.

Everything else seems specious. If you are in an environment controlled by an attacker there is no case where you can reliably generate random numbers. Sure as an attacker that already has root access I could replace /dev/urandom with a link to /dev/zero, but why would I do that when I could just install a kernel module that silently sent me whatever real random seed I decided to give you or patch your process to send the keys that are the end product of that randomness to my self?</comment>


The Copycats at HackerNews - <AUTHOR> http://www.WhatToFix.com/blog/archives/2012/02/the-copycats-at.php <comment><USER2> Earlier submission and much discussion here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3639175>

Interestingly, I searched for this with HNSearch and it didn't show up:

[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=title%3ACop...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=title%3ACopycats&sortby=create_ts+desc)

Am I the only one who finds HNSearch pretty much a complete waste of time? Searches always have to be repeated on Google because there are _so_ many results missing.

<comment><USER3> One can use hckrnews.com to check the recent submissions not yet indexed at HNsearch.

Is the dupe detector dead? That submission just left the front page a few hours ago.

EDIT: wait, I see this uses some uppercase letters on the domain name. I compared the URLs by copy-pasting on Firefox and they were identical.</comment></comment>


Navajo Code Talkers - <AUTHOR> http://www.defense.gov/specials/americanindian/factsheet.html

<comment><USER2> I'm surprised that navajo has been chose because it is a complex language, yet it's complexity wasn't actually used for the code, since actual english words were encoded in it using a navajo word -> english letter mapping.

I guess unfamiliar phonetics here played a major role in obfuscation.

</comment><comment><USER3> Great example of the importance of diversity!</comment>


Third Thoughts About Trigger Warnings - <AUTHOR> https://www.econlib.org/third-thoughts-about-trigger-warnings/ <comment><USER2> The fact that they are arguing that Exposure Therapy is more like sitting at a psychologist's office which is a person that you have come to know over an extended period of time and learn to trust them to a complete stranger saying literally anything they can in order to "trigger" somebody seems quite asymmetrical.

I feel it's a much easier comparison to Physical Therapy. Just because you need to move your arm more in order to regain a full range of movement, doesn't mean that people should EXPECT for me to strain to reach an item that is outside my current reach. When I am in Physical Therapy Session, I expect to be in pain and to exert myself. This is the key difference.

Trigger Warning means if they feel they should listen, then listen. If you do not feel that you should listen then don't. Either way, I should be aware of the fact that this could be a difficult statement and be prepared for it.</comment>


Google, as a stock - <AUTHOR>

This Alphabet transaction/reorg. got me thinking:
Why should any investor pay a multiple (expensive, by the way) and get exposure to Google Ventures/Google Capital/Google's other crazy ideas, when he/she can just invest in Sequoia, A16Z, KKR, and other VC, growth equity, or private equity managers at book value?
Other than Google Search/You Tube (what'll be under the new Google CEO), it's basically a bunch of VC-like bets right? Does Google have any great track record that would make an investor consider "buying shares in its VC fund at a multiple"?
Would love to hear some opinions on this theme. <comment><USER2> Pre-Alphabet, Google investors were _already_ exposed to all of the company's non-core businesses. The reorganization is designed to provide shareholders with a cleaner, more transparent structure while giving Google the ability to more easily operate its various businesses independently. If one of Alphabet's independent companies takes off, the structure could also make it easier for it to engage in transactions that reward Alphabet shareholders.

When you invest in a new venture fund, you're not buying anything at book value. You're providing capital and trusting that the folks who are going to deploy it will be able to achieve a return consistent with your goals. Most funds charge an annual fee of 2% of assets under management and investors are locked in for at least 10 years, so there's no free lunch. Given that the multiples in the private market today are even more pronounced than in the public markets, investors in venture funds are effectively paying significant premiums too.

Bottom line: if you like the core Google business and want some exposure to the craziest ideas in Silicon Valley, Alphabet might be attractive. It's definitely not comparable to a venture fund but still might be as close as your average retail investor will ever come to a Bay Area venture fund. Who knows, it could become the next-gen Idealab if Larry and Sergey have their way.

<comment><AUTHOR> My point was: if you buy Google stock, you're paying Google multiples on top of venture investments' multiples. That's exponentially costlier.

When I say you're investing at book value, I mean, of course, book value at fund share level, so no second layer of multiples.

The venture investments made by Google have the same liquidity constraints, and you could argue Google's SG&A are much more expensive than 2% management fee (not sure about the performance fees, though).

<comment><USER2> I would suggest you're overcomplicating this by directly comparing Alphabet to a venture fund, which it is not.

> My point was: if you buy Google stock, you're paying Google multiples on top > of venture investments' multiples. That's exponentially costlier.

Google's venture investments are negligible compared to Google's overall enterprise value. I doubt they are a real factor in the stock price and in fact, it's possible that you're getting exposure to the venture arm for free.

> The venture investments made by Google have the same liquidity > constraints...

You're missing the point. When you invest in Google, you can exit your position at any time.

> ...and you could argue Google's SG&A are much more expensive than 2% > management fee (not sure about the performance fees, though).

Google's overhead is associated with a business that generated more than $65 billion in revenue last year. The management fees paid to your friendly neighborhood VC are not.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really do get your point. But you are maybe failing to get mine: you get one great business, and a bunch of VC-like bets. And they just made it painfully more clear that that's the case.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Potato Salad Kickstarter at $71,530 of $10 goal - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad#

<comment><USER2> I have no idea what to say! One one hand it is silly, on another, what a marketing mechanism.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've seen lots of articles tonight mentioning raising $70k+ and now it's down to $43k. Is Kickstarter rolling back/freezing it or...?

</comment><comment><USER4> Could he pocket the left over money after the event? I could imagine there could be quite a deal left over...

</comment><comment><USER5> This is why the Internet sucks sometimes.</comment>


Google deleted G Suite of Startup because of a missed email - <AUTHOR> https://ilya-sher.org/2018/03/23/google-deleted-our-g-suite/ <comment><USER2> The writer talks about how the value of the documents on that account runs into the millions.

I'm not sure why anybody would use a cloud service without a proper backup you control. Let alone a cloud service with documents worth millions.

</comment><comment><USER3> It wasn't a missed email. They saw the email and didn't know how their account was setup so they ignored it.</comment>


In the 1970s, NYC Dabbled in Carpeted Subway Trains - <AUTHOR> https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/1970s-nyc-tested-state-art-subway-car-carpeted-floors <comment><USER2> All London Underground lines have cushioned, upholstered seats. You can even tell which line you're on because each line has a unique fabric pattern known as a "moquette":

[https://londonist.com/london/transport/all-the-tube- moquette...](https://londonist.com/london/transport/all-the-tube-moquette- patterns-bitchily-critiqued)

(The fabric does wear out eventually, but it seems relatively cheap and easy to replace. It's rare to see a dirty or overly worn out seat)

Commuter trains into London often have carpeted floors, too, depending on the operator and type of train. It does make for a quieter, more civilised experience!

<comment><USER3> The Red Line in Boston has fabric seats too... they're great for soaking up homeless people's piss.

<comment><USER2> The question you need to ask is, why are Boston's homeless urinating on Subway trains? Why don't they piss on the street like Londoners do?

<comment><USER4> Gets cold in winter

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> In my personal ideal world, this would be a great idea! Passengers on best behavior, no food/drink, no being drunk/high on the train, obviously no urination/defecation except in restrooms, etc. And if you do make a mess, be responsible by paying for the cleaning. But of course many people are far from my ideal, so we can't have things like this.

<comment><USER6> Ah yes, after years of trying to convince drunk people to stop getting in their cars and driving home let's now kick them off of public transit.

<comment><USER7> In truth, drunk people need to be at home and not in public. Public drunkenness is the violation, compounded by driving. Adding public transit is not at all unreasonable.

Nobody has the 'right' to be a slobbering mess-making drunk in public. At all.

<comment><USER6> Yes,

Ignoring that trying to convince the entirety of society to never drink again at social gatherings (even in your "drunk at home" ideal unless people exclusively drink alone and never at _other_ people's homes they will still need a way to get home) is a complete non-starter based on the last 9,000-odd years of human society and interaction.

Ignoring that removing all public consumption of alcohol from bars, restaurants, sports events, and basically everywhere else would have a huge knock-on effects for all sorts of areas of the economy.

Ignoring that many people are able to drink the 2-3 beer that makes it illegal for them to drive without becoming a "slobbering mess-making drunk".

Ignoring all the thousand other anti-social things people do on transit and in public that makes life miserable most places.

Your idea makes sense and will solve your annoyance without thousands of people dying every year.

<comment><USER7> Strawman. Jumping straight from 'don't be a slobbering drunk in public' to 'never drink again at social gatherings' is the usual alcoholic response to any suggestion that they may be doing anything wrong.

It's disingenuous to attack me - after all the 'public drunkenness' violation was voted into law, and not just by me personally.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is around the time the Washington DC Metro launched and they launched with carpeted cars. They stuck with carpets for decades and only in the past few years with the newest cars did they go to hard floors. The old carpets would get nasty and they would replace them with new carpets of a different color, leading to a sickly blend of 1970s brown seats and 2000s grey or red carpet.

<comment><USER9> A lot of trains still have carpeted floors in dc.

<comment><USER10> Yes, but it's less than half the active rolling stock. 538 vs 648 of the 7000 series, and and there are still 100 more 7000 series cars yet to arrive, which will lead to more retirement of the older cars. Once the 8000 series starts arriving in 2024, the end of carpeted trains (which will by then be...I dunno, less than a third of the cars?) will be very near.

Numbers: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro_rolling_stock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metro_rolling_stock)

<comment><USER10> Update: They have actually received all of the 7000 series cars, and it's 60% of the fleet.

[https://wamu.org/story/20/02/27/metro-just-received-the- last...](https://wamu.org/story/20/02/27/metro-just-received-the-last-of- its-7000-series-rail-cars/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Unimaginable as this may be, there are trains in Japan sporting green velour seating and wood(?) paneling. They are pristine and glorious-- a far cry from the hard plastics and vinyl we've come accustomed elsewhere to see as appropriate for public transit.

<comment><USER12> I think most trains around the world have carpet - just city subways are the exception.

<comment> T3OU-736 Curious thing:

Living vicariously through images - the regional rail around New York City, known as Metro North Railroad, uses what appears to be pretty thick vinyl on its trains, whereas CalTrans in Southern California uses cloth.

Wonder why a given material was chosen.

<comment><USER13> It never rains in Southern California?

<comment><USER12> London uses cloth and it rains a lot there. These trains have roofs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Obviously this was a general trend at the time; honestly, once you've taken up a seemingly spotless carpet once you'll never want to own carpeting again.

The transit museum in Brooklyn is really eye opening for this; on the bottom floor you can walk through trains going back to the start of the private Subway system(s).

There have been a lot of mystifying design decisions through the years. The earliest ones had wicker, leather and wood and seem more spacious than today's trains.

</comment><comment><USER15> This is why dogfooding is important. Any designer who thought upholstered surfaces in a public transit railcar was a good idea was someone who probably didn't regularly use public transit. On the other hand, you have to appreciate the designers for trying to improve the public transportation experience for the users. There seems to be very little innovation in passenger compartment design, and it might be fruitful to explore new designs.

</comment><comment><USER16> > "The interior sound level of a SOAC train is as quiet as the interior of a > modern office building"

Well - we managed to make the interior of office buildings louder by an order of magnitude since then...

</comment><comment><USER17> DC metro has always had carpet. I think they're getting rid of it these days. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/the...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/the- story-behind-the-carpeting-in-metros-railcars-it- stinks/2018/02/08/33d24974-0b92-11e8-95a5-c396801049ef_story.html)

<comment><USER18> The newest cars aren't carpeted, but the WMATA is still maintaining the food/beverage ban.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> London tube has carpeted seats, and while they do wear the experience is perfectly nice.

The iconic patterns are even available as merch:

[https://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/](https://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/)

</comment><comment><USER20> MARTA in Atlanta had carpeted subway cars for decades. We all celebrated when the last one of those cars were taken out of service in favor of hard surface flooring. The carpet absorbed urine so it always smelled that way in all of the cars. Summers, which are hot, humid, and lasts for nine months, were especially bad. MARTA also had padded seats in the early years but they were replaced after a couple of years due to the high vandalism rates. You can see what MARTA trains looked like when new if you watch the deleted scenes from 'Escape from New York' on YouTube.

<comment><USER21> It's also probably much easier to hose things down when the surface is not hydrophilic nor do you have to wait as long for it to dry off.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The Chicago El cars have a hard floor with channels that run lengthwise down the car that conveniently channel urine through the entire length of the car down the center aisle. Probably makes it easier to hose it out the back of the car later on.

</comment><comment><USER23> The trains serving London are carpeted, and it's not an issue.

<comment><USER24> Possibly the underground is used by a wider range of classes.

I bumped into John Bercow (Speaker) last year getting off the tube at Westminster not sure senior Politicians ride the subway to work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> BART, the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit had cushioned, cloth covered seats and carpet for decades until only a few years ago.

<comment><USER26> Yeah, that was really gross. On the brighter side - random liquids got absorbed in place, rather than flowing all around the floor like they do now ;-). I suspect someone at BART is a vintage guitar buff, the grillecloth over ceiling speaker panels looks like it's from a '50s or '60s Fender tube guitar amp.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> To be quite honest, carpeted _anything_ (other than a living room) makes me think of the Enterprise in _Star Trek: The Next Generation_.

</comment><comment><USER28> The Washington, DC metro still has many cars with carpets. They're pretty disgusting, but probably not quite as disgusting as you might think.

</comment><comment><USER29> I was hoping to read about that classic 70s shag carpet.

</comment><comment><USER30> This is such a laughably, obviously bad idea that it's hard to credit it to anyone who's taken so much as a single subway ride. Even for modern NYC but especially for 1970's NYC.... I mean, damn...

</comment><comment><USER31> It's striking how something that's mundane in many parts of the world -- I'm talking Europe here, not just in stereotypically civilized Japan -- is considered by many to be a laughably bad idea in NYC. Maybe you should consider getting to the root causes that prevent you from having such extravagant luxuries...

<comment><USER32> The root cause is a city filled with disparate cultures. Where as other have a strict adherence to their native norms, our native norm is that we don't have native norms beyond surviving. The city is transient by nature, by the hour even with a commuting population of something like 8 million people.

So...what's easier to change? Culture, or carpet?

<comment><USER31> Sure. Multiculturalism and the melting pot is the root cause. Not homelessness, drug addiction, income disparity, access to (mental) health care.</comment></comment></comment>


Automated Funds Now Dominate Stock Market - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090618-707189.html

<comment><USER2> "Traditional money managers face the increased likelihood of seeing orders "gamed," or deliberately gouged. High-frequency funds have myriad strategies, but many depend on sniffing out "order flow" - or what hedge funds, mutual funds and pension funds that hold stocks for fundamental reasons are buying and selling."

In other words, everyone except the insiders get screwed, but the insiders depend on a steady flow of suckers, er I mean aspiring retirees, to skim money from.

<comment><USER3> Actually, it's pretty tough for an algo fund to make money when Aunt Harriet sells the 100 shares of GE she bought in 1962. The big, dumb mutual funds that turn over their portfolios in a year _do_ get hit by this kind of stuff.

On the other hand, algo funds can't make money without 1) making market prices reflect the intentions of traders, rather than just their most recent actions, and 2) making the market more liquid. Both of these add a lot of good to the economy in general, even if they do it at the expense of one class of investors.

<comment><USER4> It's especially hard because Aunt Harriet's order almost certainly won't actually make it into the open market. Her broker will very likely "internalize" it (trade against it themselves), or sell it to someone else who will (e.g. Citadel will happily buy their flow.. they bought Ameritrade's last I checked).

That very well may be the future of these funds - compete for the customer or pay for order flow like in US Equity Options rather than compete in the open markets. All the orders that can be traded against with any of the typical profitable strategies (most strategies at these places are fairly well known and similar).. won't even make it to the real market. Doing it this way avoids the risks in the open market, notably adverse selection and the need to over- represent your interest in multiple places to increase your execution quality.

<comment><USER5> Good point. I didn't think of that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _The popularity of these strategies has spawned a cottage industry called "co- location," or "proximity hosting." Exchanges sell the funds "rack space" in the data centers where their servers process trades to gain an extra couple of milliseconds on the competition._

The ultimate in optimization.

<comment><USER4> Serious discussion of hosting your software on their servers started a couple years ago. I don't think anyone's done it yet, but people have at least built the technology out.

Of course, it's really stupid. Nobody that actually wants to own the stock or sell an investment cares about the difference of 50us. The competition at that level is at best inane. At worst, it makes it worse because it discourages people from trading real size and floods the world with all the little nearly meaningless quote updates.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> There is a problem with this article: it's equating an algorithmic trade with an informed trade, and assuming that if most trades are algorithmic, most market moves are due to algorithms and not individual traders.

But those algorithms are basically looking for what future trades will be, based on current trades. For example, if someone invests $1 million, in $100,000 increments, they'll try to predict that $1 million investment. But the $100,000 increments are not the information the market ought to react to -- the final investment is (the trader, in this case, is not $100K more optimistic about the company during each increment; she's $1000K more optimistic, but is acting on this optimism in a more measured way).

Algo trading funds are betting on secondhand opinions. They aren't creating their own. The directional effects of this algo trading should be very hard to detect -- after all, if you can make a sensible prediction about what the market is going to do, you should probably be working for a hedge fund rather than writing (or commenting on) the _Journal_.

<comment><USER5> Indeed; given that a basic function of the stock market is price discovery, surely automated trading causes a steepening and undesirable drop in the signal-noise ratio, amplifying signals past the point of distortion?

From my signal-processing experience, it reminds me unpleasantly of the Douglas Adams skit about the guy who gets rich by finding a way to convert stock prices to music so people can understand them without thinking. With audio, complex realtime input can result in all kinds of nonlinear distortions. This can be fun if you like crunchy sounds, but it can also spiral out of control. A lot of stock chartists (who believe in price movements rather than fundamentals as a guide to strategy) remind me of astrologers or numerologists: there's some math involved, but also a lot of mystical belief in golden ratios, fibonacci numbers etc, without any real scientific methodology behind it.

I have a hunch that a strategy of making small trades with a clearly embedded but arbitrary signal will expose a weakness in these systems for incorrectly targeting local maxima - eg if you start making meaningless trades in penny stocks where the volume Vn = Vn-1 +/- Phi, or whatever - sooner or later your arbitrary but very very consistent signal will be read as a 'strategy' and amplified by a robot.

<comment><USER3> _I have a hunch that a strategy of making small trades with a clearly embedded but arbitrary signal will expose a weakness in these systems for incorrectly targeting local maxima - eg if you start making meaningless trades in penny stocks where the volume Vn = Vn-1 +/- Phi, or whatever - sooner or later your arbitrary but very very consistent signal will be read as a 'strategy' and amplified by a robot._

You'd need to do a bit better: you would have to set up a situation where your strategy triggers algorithm A, which triggers B, which at some point leads to A being triggered again. You might do something like have one options strategy, and one equity strategy, and then do equity and options trades in the same company.

<comment><USER5> Subject to the observation above that many brokers would probably just reconcile your trades with those of other customers before sending the final totals to the exchange, thus destroying your strategy, you're quite right by but you might well be able to experiment with relatively small sums on relatively worthless stocks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is there a way to read this article without subscribing? It sounds fascinating and I would love to read it. I'd even pay to read the individual article, but that doesn't appear to be an option.

<comment><USER5> Load and hit f5/click refresh to read anything you want at the WSJ site :)

<comment><USER7> still doesn't work for me. I get the first paragraph and that's it.

<comment><USER8> Standard WSJ workaround -- click on the first link:

[http://www.google.com/search?q=Automated+Funds+Now+Dominate+...](http://www.google.com/search?q=Automated+Funds+Now+Dominate+Stock+Market)

I think we discovered a while back the the logged in / not logged in discrepancy is that the WSJ doesn't seem to prompt people to pay that are outside of the US.

<comment><USER5> I'm in the US, and I don't have any proxies or so. Maybe they just think I'm cool because I'm using Chrome. And of course, they'd be right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> There's something odd going on here.

Automated trading has dominated the stock market for at least 10 years. (LTC was a melt-down because auto-traders respond very quickly.)

So, if something is actually different now, it's in the word "funds". They're not talking about mutual funds, so what are they talking about that's actually new? (Hmm - I wonder which mutual funds are automated and how much.)

</comment><comment><USER10> Black Box - Development of Market Prediction Software: <http://www.thomasbass.com/black_box_1356.htm>

</comment><comment><USER11> alternate headline: you lowly investor vs Goldman Sachs</comment>


Interview: The Making Of Dwarf Fortress - b-man http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131954/interview_the_making_of_dwarf_.php?print=1

<comment><AUTHOR> This article, though interesting, is 4 years old (referring to the z-axis as a "recent addition"). I like the technical explanations behind the physics, though!

A less technical, but more recent article was in the New York Times last year: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance- of...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of-dwarf- fortress.html?pagewanted=all)</comment>


Email blackmail is unnecessary - <AUTHOR> http://paulbuchheit.blogspot.com/2007/06/email-blackmail-is-unnecessary.html <comment><USER2> Does this really have anything to do with startups? Besides the fact that most internet users send e-mail, I can't think of a reason why this article would apply.

<comment><USER3> It's related to a lot of startups, I would think. Spam is a problem in almost every form of communication today--and most startups are about communication. Spam is no longer contained to the SMTP protocol. I get spam on my blog, in our forums, and in our wikis. I'm sure it's going to be a problem in messaging, if it isn't already.

And, many startups are dealing with email. It isn't what we advertise as an important part of our product, and yet we spend vast amounts of developer time worrying about it, 90% of it related to spam. If I hadn't already heard Paul's comments about this at a YC dinner, it would have been welcome advice (and the link to Taylor's "Sender Reputation..." article was very useful). The tantalizing bit of data that Google might someday open their reputation data was also news worthy of comment. The question, of course, is who do we have to kidnap and hold hostage in order to make that happen sooner rather than later?

<comment><USER4> Indeed, and it's not that all startups do marketing that's borderline spam -- only the successful ones.

<comment><USER5> Google?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


When is paid advertising worth it for SaaS? - <AUTHOR>

We've been talking a lot about this in our team so decided to make (and then share) a simple calculator to help you decide what you can afford to pay for advertising, based on the economics of your SaaS business.<p>http://ad-spend-calculator.qwilr.com/ <comment><USER2> How about putting it in Show HN?

</comment><comment><USER3> Very cool, good job!</comment>


You get that "cool" Chrome notification icon too? (Mac) - <AUTHOR> http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/chrome/oYp5lXA3dhg

<comment><USER2> agreed, it's intrunsive and completely unnecessary, particularly in an operating system that has its own notifications framework.</comment>


Oracle Solaris 11.4 Open Beta Released - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.oracle.com/solaris/oracle-solaris-114-beta-released <comment><USER2> Many had been quite worried that they killed Solaris.</comment>


Sloyd - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd <comment><USER2> Ah yes, many are the cupboards filled with butterknives made in woodshop and the sofa's with an odd shitty pillow made in sewing class. Still better than the Lord of the flies -like gymclasses though :)

Fun fact, I don't think I ever had a träslöjdslärare (wood chop teacher) that had all appendixes intact. I surmised that sacrifing a finger must be part of some kind of initiation ritual for Sloyd teachers.

<comment><USER3> Oh, the many christmas presents made in slöjd! As the saying goes, "Ärad var gud i höjden, det här har jag gjort i slöjden". ("Prized be the lord in heaven, I've made this in slöjden" could be a best-effort translation)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Roy Underhill covered this in an episode of the "Woodwright's Shop." It's a PBS program in the US.

[http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/](http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/)

<comment><USER5> Season 30, Episode 7 (and repeated as Season 37, Episode 1) is "Who wrote the book of Sloyd?"

Available at [http://www.pbs.org/video/the-woodwrights-shop-who-wrote- the-...](http://www.pbs.org/video/the-woodwrights-shop-who-wrote-the-book-of- sloyd/)

Also worth noting Season 30, Episode 10 may be of interest as it covers manual training in England. "The Tiny Tool Kit" is tied to Christopher Schwarz's reprint and update of "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker".

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Ha! A long-term mystery has been solved for me. When I was a kid I encountered a tool called a "sloyd knife", which seemed like a really weird name. Now I know -- it's not weird, just Swedish. :-)

<comment><USER7> We actually just call them "smörkniv", with the litteral meaning of "butter knife". :)

<comment><USER8> A sloyd knife is not the same as a butter knife. You use a sloyd knife while making a butter knife. Sloyd knife in Swedish is "slöjdkniv".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > The word "sloyd" is derived from the Swedish word Slöjd, which translates as > crafts, handicraft, or handiwork.

but the origin is

> Old Swedish slöghþ, from slögher ("skill, knowledge, handiness")

( [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sl%C3%B6jd#Etymology_2](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sl%C3%B6jd#Etymology_2) )

which in Norwegian gave rise to words like "sløg" (smart, sneaky, cunning) and "slesk" (slimy, obsequious).

<comment><USER10> Reminds me of a bit from Cryptonomicon:

 _" So anyway, you probably learned in elementary school that Athena wears a helmet, carries a shield called Aegis, and is the goddess of war and of wisdom, as well as crafts—such as the aforementioned weaving. Kind of an odd combination, to say the least! Especially since Ares was supposed to be the god of war and Hestia the goddess of home economics—why the redundancy? But a lot's been screwed up in translation. See, the kind of wisdom that we associate with old farts like yours truly, and which I'm trying to impart to you here, Randy Waterhouse, was called dike by the Greeks. That's not what Athena was the goddess of! She was the goddess of metis, which means cunning or craftiness, and which you'll recall was the name of her mother in one version of the story. Interestingly Metis (the personage, not the attribute) provided young Zeus with the potion that caused Cronus to vomit up all of the baby gods he'd swallowed, setting the stage for the whole Titanomachia. So now the connection to crafts becomes obvious—crafts are just the practical application of metis."_

 _" I associate the word 'crafts' with making crappy belts and ashtrays in summer camp," Randy says. "I mean, who wants to be the fucking goddess of macrame?"_

 _" It's all bad translation. The word that we use today, to mean the same thing, is really technology."_

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I took an extension course at the North Bennet Street School, the historic home of Sloyd in the United States. If you're in Boston and at all interested in craft, I highly recommend it; the teachers are wonderful, and it allowed me to exercise parts of my mind that I rarely do as a software engineer.

<comment><USER12> I took a number of bookbinding workshops there, and I also would recommend it highly. Everything about that experience was amazing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I wish the link for "The Russian System" didn't just go to an article about education in Russia. I definitively remember having some sort of woodworking class in Russia, where I had to use a chisel to build a boat. (I remember understanding working with vs. against the grain when I split my poor little attempt in half along the center.) I wonder how it differs.

</comment><comment><USER13> In Italy the middle school (age 11-14) included "Technical Applications", which AFAICT was the same thing, i.e. crafts. Boys and girls would have different subjects though.

This lasted between 1963 (the year this unified middle school was introduced, previously there were specific work-oriented schools) and 1979 (they year the subject became a more theoretical "Technical Education", and unisex).

<comment><USER14> Russia has the same system, and at least 10 years ago it still wasn't unisex. Boys' crafts included woodworks and metalworks, while girls learned cooking and sewing.

<comment><USER15> Those were pretty good classes, I enjoyed them. Learned to use a coping saw, some wood and metal working. We had a lathe there and all. Some of that I had learned from my dad, but we just didn't have a lathe or those other tools and materials at home.

Our classes also included doing demolition. The school was being remodeled so they gave us hammers and pick axes and told us to go wild on a few walls. Totally unhealthy and risky. But it was an exciting activity for a bunch of 14 year olds.

Another time the teacher told to "go and get these bricks from that construction site, so and so will let you in". Looking back I am pretty sure, he was sending us to steal after he cut a deal with the guard.

Oh and also other class was told to cut some trees. Those trees were not on the school property.

Then teacher came drunk to class a few times.

Good times, good times...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Back when I was a kid we called this "industrial arts".

<comment><USER17> I was President of my high school's Industrial Arts Club circa 2001. Until this comment I had never seen or heard anyone else use the term.

Since my graduation the school has closed down the wood shop and metal shop...and when my old teacher retires in the next couple years they will no longer offer drafting either (of course we lost our T-square desks my junior year for computers and autocad).

<comment><USER18> In Australian public high schools (finished 1999) at least in NSW (ie. Sydney) the drafting part was called _Technical Drawing_ , a design theory (materials, etc.) part was called _Design and Technology_ , and then there were separate classes for _Woodwork_ and _Metalwork_. I used to really enjoy all of them, and aced _Technical Drawing_ and _Woodwork_. Years later, after a 15 year career spanning various types of software all around the world, I find myself in China doing a hardware startup, and all of that _Technical Drawing_ theory and machining experience has really come back to help! I can't thank Australia enough for a good public secondary education.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is the principle of just about every commercially successful "casual" game. The difference is that most games don't teach you anything useful outside of the context of the game.

</comment><comment><USER20> I mean, it has a different name, but surely every nation in the world has similar classes with similar content?

In the UK the GCSE Design and Technology syllabus covers all of the bases mentioned in the article as a standard part of the National Curriculum for every child.

[http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/design-and- technology/gcse/de...](http://www.aqa.org.uk/subjects/design-and- technology/gcse/design-and-technology-8552)

The article is written as if there's something special about it unique to Scandinavia, beyond its name.

<comment><USER21> The US does not have anything like this in its mandatory public school curriculum that I know of. My experience in a good public system was that if you had time in your schedule to take a shop class (wood and metal working) it was because you weren't taking a foreign language or music class. Same problem with art -- there was no room built in to accommodate those classes in a typical student's schedule.

<comment><USER22> Hmmm. Odd. I took all the above. Maybe our classes were shorter (~50min each)? Or we had longer days (7.30am to 3.30pm and then the extracurriculars started)?

<comment><USER21> I and the other students from the AP classes at my school effectively had no electives -- we all took math, science, English, history, a foreign language, and at least one music class every semester of every year throughout middle and high school. With 6 classes a day and extra curricular sports, robotics and music there was no way to take a shop or home-ec class, and that's after getting arts and gym waived.

<comment><USER23> > and at least one music class every semester of every year throughout middle > and high school

Seriously? I'm all for music in schools, did a fair bit myself, and went to a public school with a strong program... but 14+ semesters of required music seems like overkill for most people.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Mars rover Curiosity lands today - <AUTHOR> http://www.space.com/16917-mars-rover-curiosity-lands-today.html <comment><USER2> Here's some good resources on the landing:

* An overview on CosmoQuoest.org: [http://cosmoquest.org/blog/2012/08/curiosity-landing-remembe...](http://cosmoquest.org/blog/2012/08/curiosity-landing-remember-to-breath/)

* A Google+ hangout that'll be covering the landing: [https://plus.google.com/events/c7c2fbd2gil25fjimln1jnr1134/1...](https://plus.google.com/events/c7c2fbd2gil25fjimln1jnr1134/110701307803962595019)

* Conversion of the landing time into various time zones: [http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=NASA+Cu...](http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=NASA+Curiosity+Mars+Rover+Landing&iso=20120805T2230&p1=137)

<comment><USER3> Here are some more I've collected:

Awesome 3D live in-browser visualization of Curiosity's journey: <http://eyes.nasa.gov/> [doesn't work on ubuntu :( ]

There are Curiosity landing parties going on around the world, see map: <http://bit.ly/NFwMTk>

Curiosity Twitter account: <https://twitter.com/MarsCuriosity>

NASA TV will stream landing live at: <http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html>

Picture of the 3 generations of rovers next to people for size comparison: <http://bit.ly/NZBKb3>

A well-produced video of 7 minutes of terror, if you haven't seen it yet: <http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=1090>

<comment><USER2> Here's another one: NASA TV again, but in HD: <http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/ustream.html>

<comment><USER4> Link to the JPL site <http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm still very nervous about the landing system. It's ambitious, to say the least.

But if it works - oh, if it works! This really is the most exciting project in exogeology since men brought rocks back from the moon.

(Table of localized landing times: [http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=NASA+Cu...](http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=NASA+Curiosity+Mars+Rover+Landing&iso=20120805T2230&p1=137))

<comment><USER6> Our 3/10 track record isn't too great on Mars landing successes either. Here's to hoping!

<comment><USER7> 3/10 includes a lot of older missions and non-us missions. The US has quite a good track record for Mars missions. As time goes on we get better and better.

More info here: [http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/xnoog/30_success_ra...](http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/xnoog/30_success_rate_landing_on_mars_is_anyone_else/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So they completely beta tested this landing system on earth right?

Any videos? Sure hope they did more than this with just a "lab test"

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89YfPWTpWN0>

I'd be testing it by throwing it out of a plane and see if it can land intact?

ps. not a drop test but still interesting <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkGpnLrX-_g>

<comment><USER9> > So they completely beta tested this landing system on earth right?

That is not possible. Some things like gravity and atmospheric pressure/density cannot be replicated in the scale required to test here on earth. They have to rely on testing in parts and in some cases on calculations and data from previous visits and landings.

<comment><USER8> Mars has LESS pressure. So the landing would be easier here, so it should have been tested?

I find it impossible to believe it wasn't tested all together as a unit and just connecting individually tested parts.

Kind of strange they would not share such a video, which if made by a government entity is public domain anyway.

<comment><USER10> No. Mars having less atmosphere is exactly the point. Such an entry system hitting Earth's atmosphere would be like slamming into a brick wall--it wouldn't survive. And the greater density air on Earth would make the sky crane segment completely unstable. Not to mention that Earth's gravity is simply too large--components of the system would be crushed under their own weight.

Believe it, because it's true.

<comment><USER11> I don't know about most of your points, but the components being crushed under their own weight doesn't seem right. The probe was built in Earth gravity and had to undergo 4-5G of acceleration during launch. Also, it's going to experience 13G of deceleration when entering the Martian atmosphere.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I have been waiting for this for quite a while. Very excited about the potential for new discoveries.

Having said that, it still looks like the craziest Rube Goldberg set of hacked together systems I've ever seen for landing on a planet. Here's hoping it all comes off without a hitch. I have a feeling it'll become an object lesson in engineering whether it works or not.

<comment><USER13> One of the things that came out of discussion with NASA scientists was a deliberate 'science of disaster' sort of thinking. There are a number of sensors in the landing shell, in curiosity, and in the sky crane, that start transmitting as soon as they can. Further the goal of having the Mars Odyssey in position was so that as much data could be collected as possible.

Basically you have to ask the question "What science can I do at this stage?" so that during every possible outcome you extract the most data you can.

I find that a fascinating way to structure your thinking about a project.

<comment><USER14> I thought the main driver for collecting telemetry and having Mars Odyssey (an orbiter) in sight to relay data is due to the earlier loss of Mars Polar Lander ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Polar_Lander#Communication...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Polar_Lander#Communications_loss)).

The review board analyzing the loss of MPL could not narrow down the cause for certain, although they did identify a most likely cause. It was resolved in the future to have as much data collected as possible so that an unexplained loss could not occur again.

One key ingredient in this is line of sight to a relay orbiter.

But this is not a science driver, it is an engineering driver.

<comment><USER13> "But this is not a science driver, it is an engineering driver."

Fair point.

<comment><USER14> I am not meaning to be too picky. It's a big distinction from some perspectives at least. ;-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> At the top of the article, it says "Date: 05 August 2012 Time: 12:31 AM ET", lower in the article it says "Aug. 5; 1:31 a.m. EDT" but both of those seem to be mistakes since those times have already passed and nasa.gov says "Aug 6, 2012 1:31 a.m. Eastern". Sorry if this is pedantic, but I think the time is pretty important here.

<comment><USER16> What they meant was 10:30 PM pacific time on Aug. 05. For US East Coast and all areas east (Europe, Asia etc) this means Aug. 06. They posted the article early in the morning on Aug. 05 so they could have it up and relevant for a full 24 hours I guess!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Been waiting for this since its launch. NASA's livestream page: <http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/participate/>

</comment><comment><USER18> Can someone explain to me why it isn't possible to steer the capsule with the heat shield such that it can be used to deplete virtually all of its speed?

I can imagine a system where the capsule pitches up near the end of its run so that it starts gaining altitude and then deploys a parachute for landing once it has reached its apogee.

I appreciate that their system probably is the best design as they are a smart bunch, however I haven't heard the reason's why some of the more conventional mechanisms weren't used.

Another thing is the crane mechanism, which is to protect the rover from the debris kicked up from the rocket motors. I was wondering why the rover couldn't just be encased in a simple lightweight protective box and then placed directly on the deck?

Does anyone have any links to the other designs that were considered and rejected?

<comment><USER19> I don't think the capsule has the right aerodynamic properties to allow it to work as a proper lifting body in the 0.01 ATM Martian atmosphere. We don't really have any experience about lifting bodies on Mars, even less than we have about huge supersonic parachutes.

You can't land on Mars with just a parachute anyway, not with a 900 kg payload. The main problem with Mars is that its atmosphere is just dense enough that it complicates things but not dense enough that it's really helpful.

<comment><USER18> Apparently according to this video [1] (about half way through) the capsule is a lifting body however I was thinking of something like a simple guided arrow, perhaps some fins that are extended on a telescopic shaft. You could possibly then put a tractor rocket at the end of this shaft to slow descent and keep the rocket plumes away from the main body and the ground.

Regarding parachutes, is it not the case that if you need more performance, that you simply increase their size?

[1] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SwXe_X4UKoM)

<comment> Tuna-Fish Unless the atmosphere is so thin that the added weight of the parachute and it's support hurts more than it helps. 0.6 kPa is really that bad.

The effectiveness of a parachute grows at a square of your airspeed. This means that every planet has a minimum speed you can successfully slow down to using parachutes with a given system. For realistic loads and conventional materials, on Mars that is about 50m/s. Which is just too fast.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I love how the old media fears robotic spacecraft.

A great day!

</comment><comment><USER21> One way or the other.</comment>