What happens when you use a standing desk for two years - <AUTHOR> http://arshadchowdhury.com/1485-what-happens-when-you-stand-for-2-years/ <comment><USER2> I say this to anyone within earshot whenever this topic comes up: Get a motorized adjustable desk that you can stand or sit at. Unless you are a freak of nature, sometimes you will want or need to sit down. These desks are the norm in every office here in Denmark and I am always baffled that it is some kind of esoteric thing worthy of debate in America.

Having gotten used to them at the office, I got one for my home because I could no longer bear having to sit all the time. It cost around $500, a beautiful desk with customized bezel and finish. There are many suppliers, I used this one: [http://www.conset.dk](http://www.conset.dk)

(My desk: [http://imgur.com/A1eS2](http://imgur.com/A1eS2))

<comment><USER3> What's wrong with a fixed standing desk with a drafting stool?

<comment><USER2> I like my Aeron for when I do have to sit.

It surprises me that guys will easily drop a thousand dollars every six to eight months on the latest phone, yet cheap out on their workspace. In fact I would be hard pressed to think of anything more worthy of my money than my desk and chair that I spend most of my day using.

Another thing is that most standing desks, including the one in the OP, seem to have a very small work area, which would be unacceptable to me (I like to draw stuff on paper).

<comment><USER4> I've got a very nice "bar stool."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Be careful with an abrupt switch to a standing desk. Essentially, you need to build up core and leg strength over time to prevent strain.

I've been using a standing desk for a little over a year now and have many of the same observations as the OP. I also like to alternate between sitting and standing throughout the day to mix it up. I'm never going back. But, when you first switch, you are probably putting a lot of stress on muscles that have atrophied from sitting so much. If you switch patterns too abruptly, you're likely to end up with a muscle strain or back problems, or will start leaning on your desk, which can cause problems with wrist injuries/carpel tunnel.

[http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of- sitting...](http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/13/the-dangers-of-sitting-at- work%E2%80%94and-standing/)

<comment><USER6> This is a guide that's been very popular over at r/fitness to correct "computer guy" posture: [http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/ewrr0/writeup_on_th...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/ewrr0/writeup_on_the_dreaded_anterior_pelvic_tilt_or/)

I'm at an advanced level strength wise for overhead press, squats and bench press, and need a lot of core strength to handle my lifts, yet standing for a long time is still _brutal_ because of my posture and lacking strength in various smaller muscles, as well as lack of flexibility in certain muscles.

It's getting better quickly (I don't use a standing desk, but I do specific work to improve my posture), but even for people who think they've got a steel core after exercise might get nasty surprises if they try to stand all day.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It's worth noting, for those who aren't aware, that current evidence (while scant) does not support the hypothesis that using a standing desk is healthier than using an ordinary sit-down desk. In fact, the evidence for ordinary desks being harmful is not nearly as strong as standing desk proponents would have you believe.

It certainly can't be taken as a given, though, that if long sedentary periods are harmful, long periods of standing still are significantly better.

<comment><USER8> While there may not be evidence for it the amount of positve anecdotal stories seem to consistently say its better than sitting at a desk all day long.

<comment><USER7> This is unfortunately a perfect situation where anecdotes are not very valuable, as can be seen by the fact that the same pattern can be observed with obvious nonsense like hologram patches and magnetic bracelets. We see a typically less gullible set of subjects for these anecdotes, but that can unfortunately be explained entirely by the more plausible sounding hypothesis.

I'll dispense with the full Bayesian treatment here, but what we have here is a case of the base rate fallacy (although not the form that is usually discussed): failing to account for the prior probability of the evidence. That is, we have some evidence, which is that the anecdotes we see are largely in favor of standing desks being helpful, and we need to account for how likely that evidence is _regardless_ of whether standing desks _are_ helpful.

Unfortunately, as our friends with the magnetic bracelets demonstrate, that probability turns out to be very high. If something works, we see overwhelmingly positive anecdotes. If it doesn't work, we see overwhelmingly positive anecdotes.

Why might this be? Well, for one thing, there is sensitivity to placebo effects, because have purely qualitative phenomena that are being reported only subjectively.

But even stronger is a selection bias that has to do with people's behavior in reporting and reading. Someone is unlikely to write about their experiences publicly who tries a standing desk for a while, finds no significant benefit, and goes back to a sitting desk. She won't find it interesting to talk about, and she may also be self-conscious that she didn't do it right, and would be inviting criticism. After all "I tried X and it didn't work" is, on some level, an admission of personal failure, and people aren't particularly prone to those. And if she does write it up, her write-up isn't likely to get all that much attention because "X didn't work for me" isn't a particularly interesting story.

But one who finds the standing desk to be a miracle cure for all of her problems is relatively likely to write about it, and people will take notice, because "making a simple lifestyle change improved my quality of life" is an attention getter.

<comment><USER9> You're right, but that's still not an argument against trying a standing desk. If some people find them useful, and some don't, and assuming the cost of trying it is low, the rational thing to do is not to wait around until enough meta-studies are written for you to make a completely informed decision, but simply to try it out for yourself and see how you like it.

<comment><USER7> Sure, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but correctly evaluating the situation is still important. The cost/benefit does require evaluating the benefits, and the benefits actually play into the costs as well. If being sedentary is harmful and standing all day _isn 't_ a good solution, then it would be harmful to adopt a standing desk _instead_ of exercising.

For my part, my week with a standing desk just led to upper back pain (which is not unusual for me, but I am generally able to avoid).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> A thought-provoking comment from the article:

"""In time, you will suffer from various types of pain and injuries at blood vessels. Speak with a middle-aged barber with 30 years of "standing" experience, and ask him about his legs."""

I'm actually going to ask a few barbers. I'll tell you how it went once this kind of article pops up again (and it will).

<comment><USER11> So standing is a rick factor for the development of varicose veins. However. If you are standing at a desk you are most likely going to be making micro changes to your stance throughout which will act as a muscular pump, returning blood to your heart and reducing the venous pressure in your legs.

Surgeons for example are not at significantly higher risk than the average person for development of varicose veins because they are generally making small movements fairly consistently. A guard in a pillbox outside Windsor castle, on the other hand, would be at a higher risk because he is not supposed to be making the micromovements that will return the blood and reduce venous pressure, potentially causing valvular incompetence and dilated superficial leg veins specially if predisposed genetically.

Source: med student, asked lecturers about this specifically and have talked to numerous surgeons.

And as someone in the article mentioned, using compression stockings would obviate any concerns that a person may have

<comment><USER12> That's why I have a bar 15 inches high that runs beneath my desk. I can put a foot up on in it and change position every 5-10 minutes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've had a herniated disk (L4-L5) for several years, and tried a lot of different things - pilates, physical therapy, epidural steroid injections, special chairs, etc. Using a standing desk has been a godsend for me. I no longer fear inducing any back spasms after prolonged sitting.

That said, my feet hurt at the end of the day, and I still need to sit from time to time to take the weight off my feet. Am looking into padded shoes, but it's interesting to see that Arshad didn't need any special padding after a couple years.

<comment><USER7> Padded shoes may actually be counterproductive.

The problem with padding is that humans actually already have an extremely sophisticated active shock and balance system in our ankles and knees, and when you add a passive system like padding on the feet, you force that system to work harder and adjust in unnatural ways. Essentially, you're setting yourself up to always be walking on unsteady ground.

So you might want to first try going barefoot for a while, and see if that helps. If you aren't accustomed to standing barefoot for long periods, it will take some time for your body to adjust, but I suspect that you will adjust faster to that than to padding.

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the suggestion! I've been wearing orthotics for a while actually, and I'm going to talk to my podiatrist to see if I still need them.

Also, I'm curious if compression stockings mitigate soreness when standing for prolonged periods. I talked to a surgeon who says they've helped him his feet feel better while operating hours at a time.

<comment><USER14> I actually wear compression calf sleeves (same as I do for basketball) sometimes when working at my standing desk, and I do notice a positive difference.

I do often wear a pair of padded sandals instead of just standing on the carpet, though. I have an anti-fatigue mat too, but the sandals work better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I can't share 2 years worth of experience with a standing desk, but at least 3 weeks after I built mine at home. I only use it in the evenings since at work I don't really have a choice in the first place. I was suffering from back pain, and after 3 weeks using my standing desk for a few hours every day at home, most of the back pain is gone. On top of that, I used to fall asleep while sitting in front of my computer if I stayed up too long, but now this never happens - when standing I do feel more motivation and energy to do things, and I can see I have done more things on my TO-DO list in the past 3 weeks than I expected.

The only drawback is that when I feel too tired in the first place, I have no desire and energy to even stand up in the first place. But maybe that's not a bad sign. It shows I should be resting instead of using my computer.

</comment><comment><USER16> If you try this, be sure you don't half-ass it. I tried a standing desk, but couldn't raise the desk I had high enough. I tried putting my mouse and keyboard on top of other objects to give extra height, but eventually gave up because it was too difficult. I stayed standing, though, and the angle I bent my wrist at for so long has seriously messed up my right wrist. Even after returning to my usual sitting desk for months, the pain hasn't gone away (it's actually gotten worse) and I'm looking for a good rheumatologist.

Do not half-ass a standing desk.

</comment><comment><USER17> I'm surprised no one has recommended MultiTable yet. They sell a sturdy, adjustable, standing desk for under $500. The only problem (feature?) is that it doesn't come with a table top. I solved for that by buying one from IKEA for ~$50 and screwing it in. The whole setup process took about an hour and now I've got a standing desk at home! It only takes a few seconds of using the hand-crank to lower or raise it to whatever height I want, and the crank isn't even obtrusive. I recommend the desk to anyone who's looking for an adjustable standing desk but doesn't want to pay an arm and a leg for the motorized feature/power drain.

edit: amazon link [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NJUQVG](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005NJUQVG)

</comment><comment><USER18> I've been looking into this but haven't taken the leap yet because I decided I wanted an external monitor and keyboard. A standing setup with a laptop seems less than optimal from an ergonomic point of view. Isn't it better to decouple the keyboard and monitor so that you can place the monitor and keyboard each at the optimal height? I've done some informal testing with stacked books and couldn't find a height that was comfortable for both viewing and typing on my Macbook. Comfortable typing height makes me hunch over to look at the screen.

<comment><USER19> I'm always a bit baffled when people build something to prop up their laptop. I guess mostly because I'm an a country where you're not allow (legally) to use a laptop as a permanent workstation, unless you have an external monitor, keyboard and mouse.

To have a comfortable standing position, you really need to be able to move your monitor separately from the keyboard. Most monitors doesn't really allow you to adjust their height, even iMacs just allow you to tilt the screen, which isn't what you want. If you want to switch position during the day, you either need a really good desk where you can rise the monitor separately or a monitor where the "neck" extends.

<comment><USER20> Wait, what? Your government actually regulates what can and cannot be used as a permanent workstation? What country do you live in? How does that even work?

<comment><USER3> Here in the US we have OSHA, or the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, who make rules designed to prevent employers from setting up working conditions that promote injuries/illnesses. I don't know if they have rules specifically about laptops, but that would definitely be the kind of rule they make.

<comment><USER21> OSHA is basically a big joke. My father owns a _factory_ and has had an OSHA inspection only once in almost 30 years. Doubt they even get around to visiting offices.

<comment> B-Con But couldn't a worker file a lawsuit? I think the big enforcer of policy is employee lawsuits, not government inspections.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> You're doing it wrong.

Working on a laptop only all day long is insane. You need to separate screen an keyboard, otherwise one of them will be at the wrong height! If you use a laptop, it means you need to add an external keyboard.

Everything else makes absolutely no ergonomic sense!

Example: [http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/320/l...](http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/320/language/en- US/Default.aspx) You can sit and then stand up by just pulling the table up easily with one hand.

<comment><USER23> I always find this weird, that when people start talking about office ergonomics, they so frequently ignore the laptop elephant in the room. Laptops are convenient, but they are not ergonomic.

In my own office, I have to badger people to accept a monitor and separate keyboard. Usually they resist because "laptops are cool!", but after they actually try a bigger, separate screen and moveable keyboard, they would never be without them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm severely flat footed (wet footprint has no arch) and standing more than a few minutes starts to hurt my feet. Anyone else flat footed who tried a standing desk?

<comment><USER25> I am flat footed. I bought a standing mat (one that is made for a kitchen/workshop) and then got some great shoes (ones intended for nurses and doctors). I did this about 1 week into switching to a standing desk cold turkey. I switched almost 2 years ago now (22 months ago), and sometimes I may go a day sitting at home with my laptop... and I really am happy when I get back to my standing desk at my office the next day.

<comment><USER26> Proper shoes. Yes! I used to wear lead gowns in operating theaters, adding 20kgs to my existing 100kgs (I'm a smidge and 2m). My feet were absolute agony after each shift. Changing to good shoes and a theatre upgrade that made installed squishy Lino helped a lot (with a big downside - pushing 500kg x-ray gear was not that much easier than pushing it through sand would have been. I effectively plowed the floor every time I more it). Get good shoes!

<comment><USER27> Any favorite brands?

<comment><USER28> My wife is a nurse and swears by Dansko shoes and clogs. In fact, go spend a couple minutes at your nearest hospital during shift change and count how many people are wearing them, you'll probably be surprised. They don't have the widest selection however...

[http://www.dansko.com/At%20Work/](http://www.dansko.com/At%20Work/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I had a standing desk once, but after a few months, I found I had to sit to get any serious thinking done. Anyone else experienced this phenomenon?

<comment><USER30> I had the same experience, though I've been trying them on-and-off for years now. Walter Murch (demi-god of film editing) has an interesting take on it.

"Unlike most film editors today, Murch works standing up, comparing the process of film editing to "conducting, brain surgery and short-order cooking", since all conductors, cooks and surgeons stand when they work. In contrast, when writing, he does so lying down. His reason for this is that where editing film is an editorial process, the creation process of writing is opposite that, and so he lies down rather than sit or stand up, to separate his editing mind from his creating mind."

Maybe we should refactor standing up and write code sitting down?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Murch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Murch)

<comment><USER31> He said lying down, now sitting. I usually code lying down, myself. But I certainly don't stand to refactor; it'd be easy to try, though it seems a little out there.

<comment><USER30> True, thanks for catching that. I prefer to write code lying on the couch, too, though I never noticed this before. Does anyone else code lying down?

<comment><USER32> How does the ergonomics of this work? The intellectual part of writing code may be improved, but physically typing the code while on the couch can't be a good thing.

(Typed while laying in bed, in a way that would certainly screw up my wrists if I did this long term.)

<comment><USER30> I use Vim, both for writing code and as a chrome plugin, so I'm usually just hitting a few keys in normal mode, or whatever autocomplete tells me, with the occasional swipe at the trackpad. I've never had any wrist pain on the couch. My macbook air is pretty ancient but it's still super light so I can just prop it wherever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I don't know whether your standing desk experience is generally applicable, but I _do_ know good marketing when I see it. Well-played, sir! I expect Power 20 will sell a few more units.

</comment><comment><USER34> >I raised my computer 5 inches higher than when I first started because I was bending my head too far forward. My keyboard is now at chest level and my eyes are looking slightly downward at about 105º.

been to chiropractor recently and he shown me X-ray of my neck. This bending forward is actually an unnatural straightening of the neck where it normally would be curved. Cause for a host of issues now and in future.

<comment><USER35> I would be weary of putting too much credence into that particular diagnosis. Very few people have the "recommended" neck curve. For unscrupulous chiropractors, it's something they can easily point at as something that needs fixing and they'll present you with a "treatment plan" that requires regular visits over the next X months.

There's almost nothing in the way of unbiased research which has shown the neck angle to be the problem they say it is.

<comment><USER11> Agreed. The key word that should be red flagging this post is 'chiropractor'

<comment><USER34> you guys have typical case of Dunning-Kruger.

Do you have immediate friends or family treated by chiropractor (i have), have you seen chiropractor yourself (i have). Can you point any specific respectable publication which dismiss chiropractors as a whole or shows significant presence of "unscrupoluousness"? Until that your groundless dismissal of the whole class of professional people and their practice is just it, groundless childish dismissal.

<comment><USER11> And I diagnose you with a severe case of confirmation bias.

Start here: [http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3801081.htm](http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3801081.htm)

Shift over here for some overview: [http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/04/if- this-is-evidence-base...](http://crookedtimber.org/2009/06/04/if-this-is- evidence-based-medicine-i-want-my-old-job-back/)

Then jump into the hard science at SBM: [http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief- ove...](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief-overview- part-i/)

[http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief- ove...](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-a-brief-overview- part-ii/)

It's not acusing someone from a position of superiority if a profession has continually shown itself incapable of eliminating the pseudoscience in its practice, which is most of it. A claim could be made that Chiropractory is largely fraud based on their incredibly weak evidence base and the fact they are charging money for treatment that is no better than placebo.

Have a nice day!

<comment><USER34> enjoy:

[http://umm.edu/programs/spine/health/guides/cervical- kyphosi...](http://umm.edu/programs/spine/health/guides/cervical-kyphosis)

that was, almost word for word, among the things that was explained to me by the chiropractor [when he shown me the disk deformation on my X-ray - abnormally straight neck and thus abnormally compressing the front side of the disks] :

"As the discs collapse and grow thinner, the head tilts forward and the neck begins to curve forward. This begins a process that may continue to progress for years. The weight of the head causes an imbalance of forces pushing the neck increasingly forward. This slowly leads to an increasing curve and may end with a kyphosis. "

<comment><USER35> And I notice, nowhere in there does it say anything about chiropractic manipulation as treatment. I would still caution against putting too much into it until you get a second opinion from a neurologist.

<comment><USER34> >And I notice, nowhere in there does it say anything about chiropractic manipulation as treatment.

we were arguing diagnosis, hence the link that quick search brought.

I'm really surprised by the prejudice [especially baseless prejudice which is just plain offensive] against chiropractors that i met in this thread. I understand that you(+your family) had mixed experience and that provides basis for your opinion. My experience is completely different.

Even without going into personal experiences and opinions which as we see may vary (like in the case of regular medicine as well), the objectively most important fact here is that insurance covers chiropractors - this is ultimate and most important endorsement in the US :) - speaking from my personal experience of fighting an insurance several years ago when they refused to pay for a procedure an MD performed on me.

Wrt. my experience with chiropractors. My father was successfully treated for back pain by a chiropractor 30 years ago back in Soviet Union, and my wife got successfully treated for a joint issue here recently, and in my case everything has so far been consistent with my knowledge/understanding as well as with medical info i could find.

So, i don't see any reasons to worry or be suspicious with chiropractors beyond what would be typical and prudent in any other encounter with any other medical professional.

<comment><USER35> Do a more thorough search. I've done a bit more and have found no one but chiropractors suggesting chiropractics to fix this problem. Also note, while your link mentions degeneration, it is much less common of a cause than a congenital defect or the result of a medical treatment.

The prejudice is based on their ignorance of science. In fact, traditionally, chiropractics totally eschews science in exchange for philosophy. This leads to chiropractors using techniques that have been shown to be harmful, such as doing spinal manipulation to fix nerve impingement, which is contraindicated by numerous studies. Additionally, there are still many chiropractors that are anti-immunization, another scientifically baseless position, but one that is dangerous for both the individual and society.

Insurance coverage is not an endorsement whatsoever. It is the effect of heavy lobbying on the part of chiropractors. Remember, insurance is not incentivized to do what is best for the patient.

<comment><USER34> man, i'm sorry, but your stretch your personal unfortunate experience too far. Such broad statements require good links. I already posted this in the other place : [http://nccam.nih.gov/health/chiropractic/introduction.htm](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/chiropractic/introduction.htm)

<comment><USER35> What is the point of this link? NIH is policy, not science. You have failed to provide a single piece of scientific research that chiropractors can properly diagnose and treat kyphosis.

On the other hand, problems with the practice are widely documented: [http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/may/14/dangers-...](http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/may/14/dangers- chiropractic-treatment-under-reported)

<comment><USER34> >What is the point of this link? NIH is policy, not science.

that is outright fantasy.

[http://nih.gov/about/](http://nih.gov/about/)

"NIH is made up of 27 Institutes and Centers, each with a specific research agenda, often focusing on particular diseases or body systems."

My experience with a specific NIH's center - NCBI - and their work clearly correlates with it, they [ ie. their own researchers] are doing fundamental science.

The rest of your statements goes the same way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> From my experience, keep your elbows at a 90 degree angle and make sure you're looking straight ahead, or very slightly down.

Also, don't listen to people who say buy some expensive adjustable desk. I wrote about building my treadmill desk and other standing desks here: [http://reustle.io/blog/cant-stand-sitting](http://reustle.io/blog/cant-stand- sitting)

<comment><USER37> I'm about to put together a cheap treadmill desk. Any tips, or resources you can recommend? I'm a bit of noob at hardware hacking.

<comment><USER38> My big regret with my treadmill desk was the noise level. Definitely test anything before purchase to see if you can comfortably talk over it and think without distraction.

<comment><USER36> I think most decent quality treadmills tend to be noisy. I use noise canceling headphones to listen to music (or nothing) when I'm on the desk.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I've been standing since 2007 and I love it. An external monitor and keyboard setup is important for me, since the laptop keyboard and monitor are too close together to be able to both type comfortably and see the screen with my neck in a good position, but that might just be because I am very tall and have a long torso.

I have arrived at a very interesting angle for my keyboard which I haven't seen elsewhere. I use the Kinesis Advantage and built a little wedge out of wood to stand it on so that the keyboard is pitched in the opposite direction than most. It is arranged to be much higher at the front than the back, almost vertical, so I can type without bending my wrists or elbows at all. Can't see the key caps in this arrangement but I can touch type with my eyes closed.

I also have a huge external touchscreen monitor designed for windows 8 that I managed to get working on the mac. It's much nicer to use than a mouse or a trackpad although making extremely precise mouse movements is hard and I keep a regular mouse around to use when needed.

<comment><USER7> I would be very careful with that keyboard set up. It sounds very likely to cause RSI problems.

<comment><USER39> Can you explain?

<comment><USER7> I was searching for evidence, and it appears I may be wrong. Cornell ([http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html](http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ahtutorials/typingposture.html)) is one example that seems to think your set up is better than normal.

<comment><USER39> Cool, thanks. That is a useful page.

The reason I arrived at the setup I have is because I got RSI and first switched to a standing desk where my elbows were bent, which caused even more pain. I was forced to try different positions until I arrived at the one that I use now, in which I tried to keep my joints in as neutral a position as possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> "Hang on, I will see if we have a model in stock" and the sales representative walks over to a near standing desk in the store with a computer connected to the inventory system only to return 5 minutes later with the information which answers my question.

Funny how I have this feeling that when using a standing desk one will have the continous urge to walk away. I just fail to imagine how someone will stand the entire day behind a desk; I have actually never heard of standing desks before being used for full time operations. What if you want to take a minute of? As in just lounging back in a traditional chair and look at the screen for a while? You walk a circle? For the life of me! What do you do if you have a break? Eat whilst standing?

</comment><comment><USER41> I have a GeekDesk Pro and I would highly recommend it. GeekDesk's customer service is fantastic. Incidentally, I customized mine with a custom alder wood desktop, stained a kind of cedar color.

I change up standing and sitting a few times a day. You burn about 100 calories an hour just from standing, so standing for about 6 hours a day you burn an extra 600 calories. Makes a difference. Plus, much better for your posture and lower back.

However, you shouldn't be looking down at your monitor. It should be at eye level. A monitor arm can help with that.

</comment><comment><USER42> I find it best to move between sitting/standing. I sit in the morning and stand in the afternoon. Standing in the afternoon gets/keeps circulation going and prevents that drowsy feeling that can sap productivity after work.

Something else that's great to add: a bicycle. I sold my car and commute by bike to/from work about 7 miles each way. The added leg strength is amazing, not to mention it tightens your core, which helps with back pain, and there are cardio benefits, too.

It's also a lot of fun. I look for excuses to ride my bike.

</comment><comment><USER43> I did the standing desk for a few months and then added a treadmill and that went for another few months and then jerry-rigged by own seating on top. When I want to use the treadmill , I just move my saddle stool forward under the desk and when I am tired or need to focus switch to my saddle seating. It cost me about 200$ all told for the desk, treadmill and the saddle bar stool (craigslist + amazon). Image: [http://imgur.com/xq3KkFa](http://imgur.com/xq3KkFa)

</comment><comment><USER44> Standing desk user for like 5 years or so, I also use a stool.

My computers are at standing eye level, I use a high stool for myself, and a lower stool for my legs.

Very important: I use plain sole slippers so my posture and muscles adapt to naked feet. Your muscles will adapt to whatever you use for hundreds of hours. If you always use shoes with heels you won't be able to use other things, and your back muscles will develop a strange posture for balancing your body, which will make your knees suffer. It is also much better for transpiration, no fungus, no odor.

At first I was the only one to use slippers at work, now everybody at my place does.

Over half of my time I stay on my stool, with my legs on the other stool, over half I stand up.

I love it, why? My back is always straight in both cases. You became stronger, your body is activated when standing up, as there is a reflex to relax when sitting down, when you stand up your heart needs more pressure, it is the natural thing to do for humans, we are designed for that.

BEWARE: If you try it, and you have trained your body to sit down for years it will take you at least 3 to 4 months for your new musculature to develop, so you need to plan a transition strategy. Buy a stool and go step by step.

<comment><USER44> PS: Also learn good posture from a good yoga or martial arts instructor.

Read books like this: [http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions- Shoulde...](http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions- Shoulder/dp/0979303605)

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> This [1] is my desk, and I love it (I actually have 2 in a half circle, one PC one Mac). I've added a second deck, and the Mac side as 2 cinema displays on arms so they can be raised to eye level when standing.

Now this is a little expensive setup, but I LOVE it, and feel it was absolutely worth the investment. I've been using it for a few years now. It is not motorized, since you only lift the keyboard mouse section, and it is couter blanaced by spring to make that easy. This actually makes it very fast and easy to switch and cheaper at the same time. I strongly prefer that over motorized or full surface movable desks.

Regardless of how you do it, almost everyone who can stand should have a standing/sitting desk that adjusts easily. It makes a big difference in your health and mood even if you rarely switch modes. Often when you need to switch you _really_ need to switch.

[0] [http://www.anthro.com/products/fit- console](http://www.anthro.com/products/fit-console)

<comment><USER46> Off-by-one error on your URI list there ;0)>

<comment><USER45> Haha, er trying to keep people on their toes. You win.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I've been using an Ikea standing desk [1] off and on for a year and a half but most recently all day for the past two months. I definitely feel better overall (energy, alertness, etc) vs sitting. I have a trackball mouse and Kinesis Freestyle 2 keyboard in addition to a raised external monitor and laptop stand for ergonomics. The first two weeks my legs were very tired at the end of the day but now I'm used to it. I have a padded mat and use a chair to kneel on to switch up my posture and shift weight throughout the day. Now that I'm adjusted I don't think I'll ever go back to sitting.

1 - [http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dolla...](http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dollars.html)

</comment><comment><USER48> I've been standing for a year, no negative side effects to report. Initially my concentration did go down, I think it's now probably back to normal levels.

One positive, if you work things other than typing it's much easier now to sketch or assemble hardware. Typing etc is about the same. I do use a foot pad and it provides a noticeable difference.

One thing that was not obvious at first was that the biggest difference to foot fatigue/knots has been the type of shoe. I find that Converse 'Chucks' cause the least fatigue. Funnily enough I have the same shoes from Zara that OP has, and they were brutal on my feet in comparison to others.

Also to note, I thought that standing would reduce my levels of hip, calf, and ankle tightness after workouts... that hasn't been the case.

</comment><comment><USER49> Glad to hear author has had mostly positive experiences. A couple ways to improve his ergonomics even more:

1\. Eyes should face straight ahead, not down. This keeps neck in vertically aligned position

2\. Elbows should be at 90 degree angle. This will reduce tension on biceps caused from elbows at an acute angle.

</comment><comment><USER50> The end of last year, I had a microdiscectomy for a severely ruptured disc. L5/S1.

Soon thereafter, I made the switch to the standing desk via the $22 IKEA standing desk.

It's been great. Don't get me wrong, the first couple weeks sucked. Feet hurt, legs ached but eventually I adjusted. A fatigue mat helps, sometimes a wear shoes or padded sandles, sometimes barefoot.

I can't go back.

In fact, I tried to switch back, couldn't do it. Did it for a week, switched back to the standing desk.

I keep a fairly tall stool nearby, sometimes you just gotta take a load off, but its great.

Fortunately I work from home, however I might be in trouble if I have to find a new job.

I recommend giving it a shot if you've considered it. $22 is a pretty low price to pay. And if those anti-sedentary guys are right, maybe you'll live longer!

</comment><comment> whiskii-inc I am a little under a year in, biggest piece of advice is to watch your wrists.

Make sure you keys are high enough to keep the discourage any pressure from leaning forward. Even more important if you use a mouse.

I originally had mine about 2-3 inches too low. After two weeks - major pain.

</comment><comment><USER51> I have two colleagues who now have _walking_ desks: Desks with a treadmill underneath it.

It's certainly odd watching them in video conferences as their heads bob up and down while we're all chatting. But it seems like a great way to stay fit.

<comment><USER52> I don't have one, but I'm planning to build one in the near future. I've come to realize that the real problem with sitting is that it puts the body in stasis and standing doesn't really solve this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Nice. My office just got these for everyone about 2 weeks ago. At first my feet were sore, but now I'm fine after about a week. Note that I already jog for 20-30mins every morning so maybe I adapted a bit quicker than some. I think the big change for me is that standing seems to reduce hunger and my tendency to snack on stuff. Also, my stomach has stopped making those gurgle- sounds that eating lunch then immediately sitting down for a hour seems to cause. I also feel more energetic. Since I'm standing, coding and listening polskastacja online radio(Google it!) I'm usually kinda dancing in place most of the day. ^_^

<comment><USER7> Perhaps sitting for long periods was a trigger for unhealthy snacking habits for you. That alone could actually account for a major difference in energy levels.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> You don't really have to choose between a standing or sitting desk nor spend a ton of money on a motorized desk. Just get or build a standing height table and buy a drafting stool:

[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search- alias%3D...](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search- alias%3Daps&field- keywords=drafting%20stool&sprefix=drafting+stool%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adrafting%20stool)

You can sit and you can stand. And, you get lots of permanent room under the table that you would not have if the table was adjustable. I did one of our labs this way and it was fantastic.

</comment><comment><USER55> I have been doing this for about a month now. I am kicking myself for not having made the switch anytime sooner. Come to think of it, I feel humans are just not designed to sit for long hours in chairs. Standing position is natural. You feel free and are less constrained compared to a sitting position. Posture changes happen a lot more; And breaks you take are more active or sometimes continuous. They also become less of a chore.

If there is an iota of doubt in your mind, that sitting for long hours is somehow screwing up your back then please switch to a standing desk.

</comment><comment><USER56> From personal experience, standing desks are great for back problems or preventing them. However even after about four years of doing it I find that you either need a lot of padding for your heels or you need to learn to stand using the front portion of your feet.

Looking at the post about the only I don't like is that Arshad's setup doesn't look ergonomic. I tend to have the keyboard about the same height as my waist with my monitor closer in height to my head. For me when I didn't have that setup, I began to have neck and wrist issues.

</comment><comment><USER57> I use a standing desk with a bar chair (?) to sit down from time to time. Been using it for a year; initially I'd get tired of standing, but with time it became easy to stand for prolonged periods of time. Here's my setup: [http://i.imgur.com/PjpwQXc.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/PjpwQXc.jpg) (it's a little DIY :)

FWIW, I've had lower back issues for a long time, and this one change seems to have improved my condition more than the multitude of exercises and treatments I've tried over the years.

</comment><comment><USER58> I have an almost identical laptop table[1]. Is it a popular design? One Chinese factory, 20 distributors all over the world kind of thing?

Anyway, when I use it in a standing desk configuration, I keep it much lower, so my arms just drop onto the computer. It's rather nice but I prefer to regularly (every hour or two) switch positions -- standing desk, lie down, sit on the floor...

[1] [http://www.silentiumpc.com/en/atlas-nt-l10-notebook- table/?l...](http://www.silentiumpc.com/en/atlas-nt-l10-notebook- table/?lang=en)

</comment><comment><USER59> Is there a possibility of getting Varicose veins in your legs by doing this?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicose_veins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicose_veins)

</comment><comment><USER60> I'm a few days in, and my feet are pretty sore. I've been trying to get into it slowly, with sitting breaks. What has surprised me the most is that I don't feel more drained at the end of the day - if anything, I have more energy than before.

edit: one negative I have noticed - which I hope goes away - is with concentration. I'm having a hard time switching between tasks. Once i'm on one, I'm fine, but for some reason my brain is resisting starting new tasks more than when I was sitting.

<comment><USER61> Look into getting a fatigue mat. I had the exact same issue when I started, and standing on the mat helps reduce the soreness.

edit: I used [http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dolla...](http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dollars.html) to get a standing desk for cheap

<comment><USER60> Yeah, I picked one up from Bed Bath and Beyond and it's helped a lot. First day (without it) was brutal.

edit: funny, I also hacked mine together with Ikea parts. Looks pretty good too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> I can testify for the back pain: I used to get almost chronic lower-back (lumbar) pain, but now that I moved to a standing desk the pain has disappeared.

</comment><comment><USER63> One thing which struck me as strange is the picture. I mean, don't your hands start to ache when you keep them in air without no place to rest them? (his elbows are hanging in the air, not resing on some solid surface) Personally I can't manage typing comfortably without keeping my elbows at the table.

</comment><comment><USER64> "First, what did not happen: I didn't develop any knee, foot, back, or hip pains. I don't feel exhausted at the end of the day or week. My productivity and ability to concentrate did not go down."

Am I misunderstanding the double negatives here? Are these things that DID happen?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point. I'll have to fix that paragraph.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> What is a good stool or drafting chair for a standing desk, for a person around 6 ft? I have a standing desk but I haven't been able to find a compatible drafting chair or stool for my height. They all don't raise high enough.

</comment><comment><USER66> Also - your arms and wrists should really be horizontal to your elbows or near horizontal. Looking at the picture...your wrists are way too high above your elbows...this is bad and will cause the blood to flow away from your fingers.

</comment><comment><USER67> I hope this isn't another case of 'the suit is back':

[http://ajpm-online.net/article/S0749-3797(10)00412-5/abstrac...](http://ajpm- online.net/article/S0749-3797\(10\)00412-5/abstract)

</comment><comment><USER68> Anyone else out there using a balance board in addition to standing? I began using a 16" balance board at the same time as switching to a standing desk, so I cannot honestly evaluate the difference of having one or not.

</comment><comment><USER69> Instead of a motorized desk, use a second cheap computer. Put it on a fixed standing desk.

Learn to use tmux, screen, or remote desktop protocol. Use them to operate your real computer which is in front of your chair equipped desk.

</comment><comment><USER70> Doesn't this cause Varicose veins: [http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/varicose- veins/DS00256](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/varicose-veins/DS00256)

</comment><comment><USER71> At this point he's almost ready for wearable computing. Thanks to him for talking about his experience, it's an inspiration to follow the same steps.

</comment><comment><USER72> I've been doing the for a few months and my experience is similar. Especially the impatience with sitting thing. I can't stand car rides.

</comment><comment><USER73> What model laptop stand is he using in the picture?

</comment><comment><USER74> Nice article, but pinchzoom is disabled on mobile devices. This makes it impossible to zoom in on the comments (smaller text).

</comment><comment><USER75> I used one for about 6 months every day for about 6 hours a day before I couldn't take the pain in my lower back anymore.

</comment><comment><USER76> I love my IKEA Jerker standing desk. IKEA no longer sells them, but you can pick one up on Craigslist for under $100.

</comment><comment><USER77> Will this work for my monitor and keyboard? I need a way to elevate my desktop as I don't have a laptop.

<comment><USER39> It should be even better as the monitor can be at eye level and the keyboard and mouse can be at a comfortable height.

<comment><USER78> Yes, I think so too.

In fact I think using a laptop standing (or sitting for that matter) is less than optimum; the screen will be too low and the keyboard too high.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> Honestly, how many of you decided to see/buy Power 20 application after reading of this article? ;)

</comment><comment><USER80> Anyone have options for people who can't stand for prolonged periods of time?

<comment><USER81> Yes, use a high chair. Pretty much any decent one [1] will do since you aren't spending a full day in it (but get at least a decent one, not a cruddy one).

1: [http://www.overstock.com/search?keywords=drafting+chair](http://www.overstock.com/search?keywords=drafting+chair)

I far prefer a high chair to an adjustable desk. Adjustable desks involve too much of a mental decision and then a couple minutes of downtime every time. And added cost.

<comment><USER65> The problem with drafting chairs is tall people. I have yet to find one in the 45-50" maximum seat height range suitable for people 6 ft or taller. (Most drafting chairs extend to around 40" seat height, which is way too low for a tall person)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> That seals it - I need to get one of these pronto.

</comment><comment><USER83> He neglected to mention another effect: it also makes you two years older.

</comment><comment><USER84> But... how will agile teams get anything more out of standup meetings if everyone is used to standing up anyway? :/ :)

<comment><USER6> You switch to doing the meetings while walking up and down the stairs. Or balancing on one leg.

<comment><USER23> "From today, staff, instead of the morning 'stand-up', we will be 'legging it'"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> I tried it for a little over a month. Just doesn't work for me. Very bad knee pain, shoulders pain, felt not tired but kind of awkward. Felt like punishment. My fat ass prefers sitting. Period.</comment>


Apple looking to sweeten battery life with redesigned 'jelly rolls' - <AUTHOR> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/07/28/apple_looking_to_sweeten_battery_life_with_redesigned_jelly_rolls.html

<comment><USER2> Isn't this an obvious thing to do? I'm quite surprised it hasn't been implemented anywhere yet.

</comment><comment><USER3> Wait wait, you mean Apple _does_ innovate?</comment>


DRY your Rails CRUD with Simple Form and Inherited Resources - <AUTHOR> https://www.petekeen.net/dry-your-rails-crud-with-simple-form-and-inherited-resources <comment><USER2> Excellent, just did the same thing about a month ago (for [https://codeable.io](https://codeable.io)). We wanted to use Rails 4 but Active Admin didn't want to play nicely, so I looked around (and checked it's dependencies) and came to the same conclusion. One additional gem I'd recommend with this setup is also Ransack (AA also uses it) that allows you to easily implement searching.

After I was done, I wrote pretty much the same amount of code I used to configure AA.

<comment><USER3> ActiveAdmin is now compatible with Rails 4 on master, unsure if they've released it yet: [https://github.com/gregbell/active_admin/blob/master/activea...](https://github.com/gregbell/active_admin/blob/master/activeadmin.gemspec#L21)

<comment><USER4> I don't use ActiveAdmin much, but I do have RailsAdmin set up on Rails 4, no problems:

        $ grep \'rails Gemfile
        gem 'rails', '~> 4.0'
        gem 'rails_admin',  '~> 0.5.0'

[https://github.com/sferik/rails_admin](https://github.com/sferik/rails_admin)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I love SimpleForm, but I still wouldn't want to roll my own administrative interface. With RailsAdmin, I make changes to my database schema, or add a new model, and those changes are automatically reflected in my admin interface. One less thing to maintain.

Also, I don't have to write any CSS, I get PJAX thrown in for free, and I inevitably have clients say "oooh, pretty" without any extra effort on my part.

They also say "How did you build this so quickly?", which I have no complaints over.</comment>


Ask HN: How necessary is a TOS? - <AUTHOR>

I'm setting up a site at the moment and am wondering how important it is to have a TOS. I'm inclined to omit it as unnecessary legalese that my users are probably not interested in anyway. But the latest Facebook has made me aware that in some cases this is something that people pay attention to.<p>Is a TOS necessary for every site? <comment><USER2> Personal opinion, based on limited experience.

Essential, unless you want to endure endless complaints about there being no rules, so how can they be banned because they didn't do anything wrong, because nothing's wrong because there are no rules.

Be blunt. Say that people are expected to behave well, and that if you think they aren't behaving well then they'll get one warning, then be thrown off.

Make it clear that you are a benevolent dictator.

<comment><AUTHOR> I was just going to make up the rules as I go along. I expect my users to exercise normal standards of good behavior or else incur my inevitable wrath :)

Besides, how am I supposed to figure out all the rules at the beginning. I don't know what direction the site is going to take even a month from now?

I understand your point but I'm afraid it requires me to make decisions about things before the paint is dry.

<comment><USER2> Not at all - I'm saying not to make up rules at all. Watch the behavior, and if you think something is inappropriate, say so. Then if it continues, say so again, and take action.

The TOS should be something like:

        It's impossible to say clearly exactly what is and
        is not appropriate behavior.  Be nice, play nice,
        and don't be evil.  If I think you're behaving
        badly I'll tell you.  If you keep doing so you'll
        be barred.

        I intend to be fair and just.
        My decision is final.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I have the same concern too. I tried googling for some generic TOS template but nothing good so far. I've decided to let that part go for now because I figured it's more important to get the site working and functional first.

I guess when the site does make some money, I can always find a legal copy writer to write one for me.

<comment><USER4> wordpress made their TOS free to copy.

<comment><USER3> awesome! Thanks for the info.</comment></comment></comment>


Yvette Borup Andrews: Photographing Central Asia (2018) - <AUTHOR> https://publicdomainreview.org/2018/01/10/yvette-borup-andrews-photographing-central-asia/ <comment><USER2> _Camps and Trails_ is a good read, at least the Yunnan section, if a little travelogueish.</comment>


An opinion piece: end of a PRC-USA trade war - <AUTHOR> At G20, Xi Jingping conceded to Donald J Trump demands for end of the trade war.
At the surface, a win-win solution was achieved: more trade for both countries.
But in the political dimension, the conflict ended ruinously for Xi. Trump became a man who started and won this war. Xi took upon "teaching America a lesson," and failed spectacularly at a great price to Chinese industry and middle class.
China lost its international standing, and US gained. Everybody sees that US can force its agenda in economic disputes even against China, and that China is a soft target.
Trump intentionally setup the conflict so Xi loses in any outcome: would Xi chicken out first, he will lose his strongman image; would he not, he will be seen as somebody who ruined Chinese economy to save his image. The only option where he could've won was to refuse both outcomes: start aggression on its own.
China has all things needed to not only hurt American rust belt and agricultural economy, but to totally ravage it. Besides being the biggest market for agricultural commodities, China has leverage in fertilisers, other agrochemicals, and veterinary supplies.
American tech companies became inseparable from China. Their very existence will be threatened if they loose China. That prospect alone can crash American stock market, and send pension funds into panic.
The conclusions here is that China has more to gain from breaking rules in international trade, than from continuing playing an unfair game.
Were China to succeed in trade war, it could've secured one more decade of prosperity and growth at cost of its relationship with US (which were doomed anyways.)
American needs China's cheap exports and access to its economy more than China needs its exports to America. There are more avenues for growth for China if it breaks its engagement in US economy, and take initiative in building its own trade block, separate from WTO, and working according its own rules of the game. <comment><USER2> Too soon to make definitive statements on what happened.

I see the US going ahead with 25% tariffs, no matter that there is supposed to be a "truce".

I see China continuing to do things that upset the Americans.

I don't see the 'truce' as producing anything at all bar a press release.

</comment><comment><USER3> No sympathy for China, or Xi's corrupt trade policies.</comment>


PBX Hell: 50+ Hacks Get to a Real Person in 10 Seconds or Less - <AUTHOR> http://www.voip-news.com/feature/50-plus-pbx-hacks-030308/ It's infuriating to sit on hold for 20 minutes, only to be connected to a service agent has less knowledge about how to help you. The following tricks will help you skip to the head of the line and find a better person to talk to. <comment><USER2> I'm quite impressed with the quantity of tips. Many articles in this format struggle to present five factoids.

From the article: 32. Do nothing.

Sometimes, this leads to disconnection. Re-connect and try 0 or "agent". For smaller companies, you may speak to the same person regardless of options selected. In this case, the purpose of a menu system is only to collect statistics. If the statistics are ignored then the menu system is futile.

From the article: 49. Hard to Find 800 Numbers

In the UK, <http://www.saynoto0870.co.uk/> allows you to find cheaper alternatives to premium rate telephone numbers. Often, premium, national and freephone numbers map to the same PBX.</comment>


BeagleBone Blue – A complete, Linux-enabled robotics computer - <AUTHOR> https://beagleboard.org/blue <comment><USER2> Was initially confused, because there was an earlier "BeagleBone Blue" (well, BlueSteel, I guess) that had nothing to do with robotics:

[http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/06/18/bluesteel-basic- beagl...](http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/06/18/bluesteel-basic-beaglebone- black/)

The interesting part of this one, to me, is the Octavo packaging of the AM335X processor with on-die RAM. That makes the board much simpler. Though, I thought it would make a bigger difference in price. The BeagleBone wireless that uses the same chip is ~$68, which is $7 higher than the Black that has separate RAM.

If you haven't used a BB product, check out the thing that I think is the biggest upside of these...the built in pair of PRUs. It's like having the best of a normal linux board plus a microcontroller on the same board. Since the PRU shares memory with the main CPU, you can offload things that need to be realtime. That allows for things like a near professional-level LED matrix controller ([https://trmm.net/LEDscape](https://trmm.net/LEDscape)) or even a DIY video controller ([https://trmm.net/Mac-SE_video](https://trmm.net/Mac- SE_video)).

<comment><USER3> The project that I am a part of uses the PRUs to implement an ultra-low latency audio platform: [http://bela.io](http://bela.io)

It's open source, here's the PRU code: [https://github.com/BelaPlatform/Bela/blob/master/pru_rtaudio...](https://github.com/BelaPlatform/Bela/blob/master/pru_rtaudio.p)

This paper describes the platform in more detail: [http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/mcpherson_aes2015.pdf](http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/mcpherson_aes2015.pdf)

This paper compares latency achievements using this strategy compared to Raspberry Pi, Arduino, Max/MSP, etc: [https://qmro.qmul.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/124...](https://qmro.qmul.ac.uk/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/12479/Moro%20Action- Sound%20Latency%202016%20Submitted.pdf)

<comment><USER4> Thanks! This looks a really good starting point for a project I am working on. Using PRU for I2S is genius :) Can you please point me to the detailed specifications somewhere on [http://bela.io](http://bela.io)?

<comment><USER3> Cool! What are you working on? What kind of specification are you looking for? Feel free to get in touch firstname.lastname@example.com or forum.bela.io

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Oh my. This looks perfect to replace the plethora of daughter boards I usually have in my robotics projects: encoders, power boards for DC and servo motors, I/O boards. This also looks clearly oriented towards drones, and seems to have a lot of potential in that regard.

To be fair, I was also recently considering switching to other, more integrated boards recently; but this one seems particularly well tailored to my use case, at a decent price, and (perhaps more important in some regard) open source.

I didn't read the full specification, the only thing I am worried about is the maximum power draw (especially for DC motors). I also usually use 24V PSU/batteries, but that's only a minimal inconvenience.

</comment><comment><USER6> The title is a bit misleading, this Beaglebone iteration is oriented towards robotics mainly. It can do autopilot but not without external hardware (e.g GPS). It does have hardware useful in robotics though that common autopilot boards miss.

It is very interesting and the price point is good (about €80). A thing that troubles me is that, with a very quick look, I couldn't find a nice programming guide.

Recently I switched to Raspberry Pi 3 with a Navio2 HAT for an autopilot project. Whilst the Navio2 hardware may be expensive and closed, their software and documentation are top notch. They provide their own rasp pi distro, with code examples for accessing all sensors and even expose some of the hardware in sys-fs.

<comment><USER7> > They provide their own rasp pi distro

The story of why this world of "linux" machines is a disaster in seven words. I'm sure this new BeagleBone is just a tarball flinger too.

<comment><USER8> TI (manufacturer of the core on the BeagleBone line) has much better Linux support than the generic SoC makers out of Asia.

[https://git.ti.com/sitara-linux](https://git.ti.com/sitara-linux)

<comment><USER7> Literally the first repository in that list is their kernel: a 3.14.26 tree. The 3.14 tree was tagged fully THREE YEARS ago. 3.14 is not a LTS release, and its last patch version (.26) was released in December of 2014. It's likely missing a bunch of important fixes that went into the 3.16 LTS tree since. I don't see anywhere on that site where they're maintaining a more recent "development" or "upstreaming" kernel either. They just have this one tree.

So given that, tell me what you think the likelihood is of these Sitara changes ever reaching the mainline kernel tree? Zero? I'll put my money on zero.

"Much better" than Rockchip or Allwinner maybe. Not "good".

<comment><USER9> it's supported by mainline kernel. it's probably the best supported cheap open hardware of its sort out there. every datasheet for each chip on the beaglebone black is freely available and it can run with no proprietary blobs, unlike the raspberry pi. it's even supported by the *bsds.

<comment><USER7> Really? Genuine question. Is there a link where I can find someone's .config for a current mainline kernel I can boot? I swear I'll buy one of these right now if so.

Note that "no blobs" can't be completely right. I'm like 99% confident these use PVR SGX graphics, for which there are no open drivers.

<comment><USER10> Yes. Robert Nelson maintains the kernel and various accoutrements for the BeagleBone Line, and he is fantastic.

Start here:

[http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_Debian](http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoneBlack_Debian)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Ah, a board with R/C PWM servo ports. That's a 1970s interface which should have been replaced by now. There are servos with a bidirectional serial interface, so you can ask what the actuator is doing, but they're overpriced.[1] They're about 5x-10x as expensive as standard R/C servos.

There was an open source project, OpenServo, to do something about this, but it was done by 2008 and seems to be dormant. [2] There's no multi-manufacturer standard for servos above the dumb level.

Annoying things in low-end robotics: 1) motor controllers with significant power handling cost too much, although this is improving, 2) encoders cost too much, although they're simple and every mouse wheel has one, and 3) encoders are usually fragile plastic add-ons to motors with strong metal cases, instead of being integrated inside the motor case.

[1] [http://www.trossenrobotics.com/c/robotis-dynamixel-robot- ser...](http://www.trossenrobotics.com/c/robotis-dynamixel-robot-servos.aspx) [2] [https://openservo.org/](https://openservo.org/)

<comment><USER12> The core problem with the dynamixels is cost. I'm hesitant to use them in any situation they could get trashed because they are so expensive. Add on that they are harder to control and it's a recipe for a niche product.

Having used them I loved them, but they aren't a tool I reach for at first. But now that you've brought them up I kind of want to use them for something.

But why this board has RC PWM Servo ports? Because it's a cheap easy way of interfacing with things. More importantly, it let's you hook Brushed/Brushless ESCs up fairly easily to get things moving with motors that draw more than 1 amp.

1) DC Brushed - Spark ESC [https://www.amazon.com/SPARK-Motor-Controller-REV- Robotics/d...](https://www.amazon.com/SPARK-Motor-Controller-REV- Robotics/dp/B0187YCAFI) (Disclaimer - I know the owner of Rev, he's a friend) 2) This is really a function of scale more than anything. But yes, they are expensive. 3) With the advent of 3d printing it's at least manageable to put something around them

But I agree with you that most of these are incredibly annoying.

<comment><USER13> Speaking of big motors and big torques its interesting to consider CNC machine tool conversion technology ... Admittedly continuous use, industrial level indestructibility and temperature levels means expense, but if you want 400+ oz=in of torque for a wheel perhaps, you could do worse than CNC controller hardware perhaps driven by something other than CNC software. At some point you have a 5 volt TTL interface thats as simple as direction and step. You'll be spending maybe $200 per axle but you look at the price of 400+ oz-in servos or gear motors plus drive circuitry and suddenly its not that bad. 1000+ oz-in is not out of line for the larger machine tool conversions. Standard NEMA motor mounts etc. You take 200 steps/rev stepper and add 10-step microstepping driver like a geckodrive and theres 2000 steps/rev at 400+ oz/in with a simple TTL interface for maybe $200 (plus power, and steppers are hungry beasts)

<comment><USER14> Could you provide a link to some of these $200 devices for reference?

<comment><USER13> Something like a geckodrive G251 single axis stepper driver for $89 good to 3.5 amps combined with a NEMA 23 stepper one of the lower current 1.8 amp "long" types $48 on amazon for 340 oz/in torque. That's about $140. That's 68% of budget for 85% of specified torque.

Its easy to find a NEMA 34 with over 600 Oz/in for $60 on amazon but it'll probably draw 6 amps at 600 oz/in and you'll need a more expensive controller. Something like a geckodrive G201X is rated to 7 amps at $127 which just barely makes spec.

The worlds cheapest stepper paired with the worlds fanciest most indestructible controller is probably unrealistic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Arrow is running a special—the BeagleBone Blue for ~$77 with free shipping and a free raspberry pi 3. Just in case you were on the fence about picking on up...

[https://www.arrow.com/en/products/bbblue/beagleboardorg](https://www.arrow.com/en/products/bbblue/beagleboardorg)

<comment><USER16> Argh, they won't accept my password with special characters, number, uppercase letter and lower case letter, with error that "password must contain at least one number, upper case letter and lower case letter". How stupid is that.

But good for me because I paused shopping to vent here and I realized I may actually not need it that badly having enough MCUs at home already.

<comment><USER17> I'm not sure if this comment contributes to the discussion

<comment><USER18> Poor password policies are always worth pointing out.

<comment><USER19> 1password deals with that quite nicely imho

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> How's the BeagleBone quality these days? I bailed a couple of years ago in the Black era after fighting with the buggy serial hardware which required a full power-cycle to recover from faults, and getting tired of the process needed to upgrade the boot flash without bricking the system.

<comment><USER10> I have fried one or two, but it was my own fault each time. (Do not connect the +5v from the barrel connector to the GPIO pins!)

I use a BB Black in an outdoor location and it runs 24/7 with no hitches, and has been for months. It's in San Francisco and it's inside a control box, so not the most extreme conditions, but it has survived all the recent wet weather and hot days last summer with aplomb.

edit: I have flashed the firmware numerous times on several boards and have never had an issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I hope they fixed the Easter Egg that blows the CPU if you power up via VDD_5V and plug the USB cable in.

<comment><USER21> Sorry, order should be reversed: Power up via USB and connect VDD_5V.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> What's really great about this board is the practical approach: integrate things that people will need to build real-life robotics devices. A good example: 2S LiPo charger, not obvious to do yourself, and required if your project is supposed to move beyond your benchtop.

</comment><comment><USER23> Beagleboard is part of GSoC '17 - so if anyone has any cool open source project ideas using BB Blue, please do suggest at [http://bbb.io/gsocideas](http://bbb.io/gsocideas)

</comment><comment><USER24> The page linked seems to indicate a cortex-M3 on there somewhere. I don't see it in the OSD3358 docs or on the BOM. Anyone know if that's a mistake?

<comment><USER25> The main CPU is a Cortex-A8. In additions, there is a PRU-ICSS (Programmable Real-Time Unit Industrial Communication Subsystem), which has two 32-bit RISC cores. The latter can handle hard real-time intricacies without any latency from the A8. It is what sets this board apart from the simple-minded Raspberry Pi and other boards.

In practice, you can use the A8 as if the PRU is not there for 99% of what you want to do. You can also get into programming the PRU itself, but this is very much for the advanced user.

BTW, I don't see the PRU referred to anywhere else as "Cortex-M3".

[https://www.element14.com/community/community/designcenter/s...](https://www.element14.com/community/community/designcenter/single- board-computers/next-gen_beaglebone/blog/2013/05/22/bbb--working-with-the-pru- icssprussv2)

<comment><USER7> There are two lines in the spec summary. The PRU is one, a Cortex M3 is another. It's not unliklely that the SoC indeed has both, intending the ARM for use as a very low power, always-on sensor listener (e.g. the DSPs that handle audio and sensor input on phones so they can wake up the main CPUs for gesture or voice recognition).

<comment><USER25> Except the datasheet [0] does not list anywhere "Cortex-M3", nor reference any ARM cores other than the Cortex-A8. So if it is there, they are keeping it a deep secret.

[0] [http://octavosystems.com/octavosystems.com/wp- content/upload...](http://octavosystems.com/octavosystems.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/09/OSD335x-Datasheet.pdf)

<comment><USER26> It's used for power management, and it's listed in the full Technical Reference Manual, page 1172:

[http://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruh73](http://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/spruh73)

<comment><USER27> What a surprising find! I would imagine Cortex-M3 (with 24 KiB RAM in total) a huge overkill for just power management. And it totally escapes me why the realtime co-processors are using a custom ISA solution rather than just using Cortex-M0/3/4\. Would have been great to leverage the mature toolchain for Cortex-M!

<comment><USER7> Power management on modern SoCs is actually really complicated. There are dozens of power rails and clocks for different subsystems that all must be brought up and down with controlled order and timing if the device is going to work reliably. This kind of controller is routine on most "big" SoCs these days.

<comment><USER27> Then how about Cortex-M0, instead of M3? Surely enough that can save quite a bit of area, while still enjoying the good interrupt support of Cortex-M?

<comment><USER7> Presumably so they can share the workload with other tasks, like boot verification or low power sensor listening. The M3/M4 are still very small cores.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Business partner has been talking about building a CNC router, this thing is basically _perfect_ for that.

</comment><comment><USER29> Here's an idea: create a subscription service that signs me up for 20 USD per month and gets me the latest hip boards in a reasonable time frame (I realize that this specific board is outside of this price range).

<comment><USER30> Your gonna end up with a bunch of Amlogic, Allwinner & Rockchip boards with little to no software support unless you get a bunch of H3 based Allwinner boards. Most of what is out there is nothing to write home about, the decent stuff (eg. OrangePi PC) is either pure luck, or browbeating by the community (OrangePi+ 2e) with the occasional vendor like FriendlyARM coming in using SOCs that the community mainlined support for.

Then you have incompetent vendors like Olimex, Pine64, Next Thing Co (of C.H.I.P., the "$9" SBC) that fuck up the hardware, software, or both, and forget critical stuff like heat spreading copper layers in the SBC (Olimex), misroute ethernet so it can't actually do a gigabit a sec (Pine64), or lie about SOC software support and scramble to port the closed blobs that make their board work forward (Next Thing Co).

<comment><USER31> You are bit hard on Olimex -- to be fair, they release hardware specs, schematics and so on well in advance, and in true 'open hardware' form -- so nothing stops you actually reviewing and/or fixing it if you get a chance!

I've used quite a few Olimex boards for pretty serious work project, often as a prototype before we settle on a 'real' hardware to develop, and I've always been very pleased with what I've got. Altho, I haven't bough any of their 'really fancy' boards lately.

Disclaimer: I was the one who rewrote and upstreamed the original Mini2440 'friendlyarm' board.

<comment><USER32> I'm a big fan of Olimex and have been impressed overall by the reliability of their boards, and I really appreciate the openness of their hardware and development process (e.g., you can check out eagle files for boards that haven't event been released yet and provide feedback)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Does anyone has a list of websites reviewing all those kind of boards ?

</comment><comment><USER34> Now if only ¨they¨ would re-release R2D2 I´d have the perfect project board for the perfect project bot. But at $500 plus I´m not to inclined to get the sawzall and soldering iron out.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer- listing/B002KHN23S/ref=dp_ol...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer- listing/B002KHN23S/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all)

<comment><USER13> [https://astromech.net/](https://astromech.net/)

They're a little weird about joining before access is granted to see the goodies and get involved in the group buys and so forth. I've been meaning to get started on a styrene laser cut but... life, infinite number of things to do, its warming up outside so I'm more motivated to daydream about my electric bicycle conversion plans so maybe next winter, etc.

I don't see the point in spending $600 for anything but a 1:1 scale model, and conveniently you're looking at "high three figures" for styrene unlike the $2K or so for all aluminum. Also a lot of cost depends on insistence on perfection delivered today vs "ah I'll put that detail on next winter" attitude. There's a big cost difference between "I'm building a droid that looks like its in the R2 family from 50 ft away" vs "I am making a droid that is so good that it could be used in a hollywood movie as a prop if not main character"

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Sounds great for ArduPilot.

<comment><USER36> How is ArduPilot going after the 3DR/Linux foundation drama?

<comment><USER23> Pretty good actually - [http://ardupilot.org](http://ardupilot.org)

Setup a proper organisation, with proper ways to handle commercial interests, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> > On-board 4GB 8-bit eMMC flash storage

Right here is the biggest benefit to these boards over say a raspberry pi. The IO rate on an SD card is so pitiful. It's extremely slow to do anything other than writing out logs.

Having 4GB of flash will help speed these little devices up a lot!

</comment><comment><USER38> Check this library if you want to interact with BB: [https://github.com/theoctal/octalbonescript](https://github.com/theoctal/octalbonescript)

</comment><comment><USER39> This is awesome. Although for any modern robotics project you definitely need a powerful gpu. What's the support on the board to hook up an external gpu?

<comment><USER40> Looking at the kinds of projects they have show on the page, it seems that a GPU is not useful for most of those.

For the projects where you would benefit from a GPU, you could perhaps commicate with a bigger computer that does the calculations? Too much latency for some applications of course but not for others.

If your project really needs a GPU and it needs it on the device that is controlling the robotics components, I think probably something other than the BB Blue would be more appropriate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I just ordered 2 of these from Arrow and received a free RPi 3 as well!

</comment><comment><USER42> The board photo seems to call it BeagleBonBlue. Ouch.

</comment><comment><USER43> [Comment removed.]

<comment><USER44> I think you commented on the wrong thread.</comment></comment>


Juno Takes on Uber - <AUTHOR> http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/10/10/juno-takes-on-uber <comment><USER2> Some readers may remember previous comments I've made, which boil down to this...

Uber, Airbnb, Lyft, and all other "sharing economy" apps are retailers and they do no control the products they sell.

To put it more succinctly than this article, first-of-a-kind sharing economy apps have overcome the psychological, legal, and technological hurdles, effectively paving the way for their competition. Once the road has been paved, expect bespoke copycats to come along (like Juno).

Retailers are historically a bad investment folks.

</comment><comment><USER3> >The drivers learned that Juno's commission was ten per cent, "guaranteed for our first twenty-four months." (Uber typically charges twenty-five per cent or more.) >Juno was also offering twenty-four-hour support for its drivers, with a promise that you could always reach a real person on the phone, "not a robot." Finally, Juno drivers could earn an ownership stake in the company, in the form of restricted stock units. "I think this is a huge deal," Smith said. "And it's totally unique."

This is brilliant. It'd also be interesting to see someone come and swipe YC's business now that it's going full-on corporate -- maybe Product Hunt could add an investment arm, stay small in size (at least for the first few batches), and become the next flavor of the month when YC has gone stale?

<comment><USER4> > In the first six months of 2016, Uber sustained $1.2 billion in losses, a > stunning amount.

How will Juno fare with less than half of Uber's commission?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> We all know the future of ride sharing is autonomous vehicles. If Juno's owner/drivers end up being able to purchase their own autonomous vehicle micro-fleets, it seems they could outpace a company that seeks to own its own fleet, like Uber. It's the same model Amazon uses to increase available inventory and externalize the risk of owning that inventory.

</comment><comment><USER6> this will be perfect for when uber starts rolling out their autonomous vehicles in more cities

</comment><comment><USER7> Big pivot from free dialup.</comment>


Logical Fallacies with Easy Examples - <AUTHOR> https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/3/Book-Contents <comment><AUTHOR> Use the list on the left to browse common fallacies. Useful knowledge for preparing an argument, debating, or reasoning.</comment>