Study: Half of black males, 40% of white males arrested by age 23 - <AUTHOR> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-01/uosc-sho010314.php <comment><USER2> I think that this trend, at least in part, has been influenced by a change in the way that we treat adolescent crime. For example, even when I was a kid (early 90's) you would not get arrested for getting into a fist fight at school. Nowadays, bam; call the cops.

Get caught with some pot? Arrested. Get caught performing some petty vandalization? Arrested. Get caught at a party drinking as a minor? Arrested. We arrest kids for things that they used to just get a slap on the wrist/call to mom & dad for. Now they get a court date.

We throw the cuffs on kids much more readily than we used to 20, 30, 40+ years ago.

<comment><USER3> This has been dubbed the "school-to-prison pipeline." It's exacerbated by the fact that many schools now have police officers permanently stationed at the school, which leads to a "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. It also contributes to the racial disparity because predominantly black schools are more likely to have a police officer than predominantly white schools.

<comment><USER4> This was a sensitive topic while I was in high school in Colorado. I don't think the school had a majority, but the largest groups were white and hispanic groups. We always had at least 1 permanent police officer heading a group of a couple of people who could be either police or security.

Nominally this was a response to incidents throughout the rest of the state such as Columbine, but in reality the purpose was to try to combat youth gangs. In this respect I think it partially worked for the circumstances.

However, this was also used to target usage of marijuana and cigarettes by students. I'm not sure how effective this was, because data about that was not commonly released by the school. Needless to say, a lot of students didn't like this, but opinion of the student body was very divided. It would be interesting to see how things have changed in Colorado high schools since marijuana was legalized; I'll have to look into that, but in most schools marijuana is still banned (like tobacco products) so things could only get worse if school policy is unchanged.

<comment><USER5> As an outsider that seems incredibly wrong. The answer to youth gangs is not more security. Perform a root cause analysis and go back to the fact that kids often fall into gangs because parents are not around (working double jobs), they are stuck in poverty with an easy out (crime).

It saddens me to read about solving youth problems by attacking the symptoms rather than the cause. Though I understand why, fixing the cause takes time, is unpopular to those on the political right, while fixing the symptom seems can achieve immediate results (though not long term).

<comment><USER6> If poverty were relevant, Colorado would have zero gangs.

<comment><USER7> Colorado has zero poverty?

<comment><USER6> More or less.

[http://b-i.forbesimg.com/richardgreen/files/2013/12/Income-d...](http://b-i.forbesimg.com/richardgreen/files/2013/12/Income- distribution_US-vs-China-India-world.jpg)

<comment><USER8> Surely you are not comparing income in Colorado to income in Brazil or India.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> _Most striking are the race differences revealed in the study, Brame says. In particular, the research points to a higher prevalence of arrest among black males and little race variation in arrest rates among females._...

 _By age 23, 49 percent of black males, 44 percent of Hispanic males and 38 percent of white males have been arrested._...

 _By age 23, arrest rates were 20 percent for white females and 18 percent and 16 percent for Hispanic and black females, respectively._

By age 23:

\- Black males have been arrested at a 29% higher rate than white males.

\- White females have been arrested at a 25% higher rate than black females.

While the absolute rate of especially black male arrests is troubling, I find the racial differences in both genders striking and particularly surprising in the female case.

<comment><USER10> Black males are disproportionately represented among those in poverty or with low income compared to white males. If the police completely ignored race, we would expect black males to be arrested at a higher rate than white males.

The most troubling possibility that the black male vs white male rate suggests to me is that police might not be taking black _victims_ as seriously as white victims.

Blacks die by homicide at a rate that is around 16 times the rate whites die from homicide, for instance. I haven't analyzed this to make sure I'm not running into something like Simpson's Paradox or something similar that makes it easy to mess up when looking at cross group statistics, but my first impression is that if police were working as diligently to solve crimes against black people as they do to solve crimes against white people, they would be arresting a lot more black criminals than they do.

The female data is interesting. I don't even have a guess as to why white females might be arrested at a higher rate than black females.

<comment><USER11> Just a guess: more white females than black females go to college, where they have plenty of opportunities for underage drinking, marijuana use, trespassing, vandalism, or other minor crimes. More black women at that age are mothers, where they have to provide for their kid and don't have time to get into mischief.

The arrest rates at age 18 were nearly identical for white vs. black females, the discrepancy only arose in ages 18-23. It would be interesting to see the data broken out by crime and by educational achievement.

<comment><USER12> _Just a guess: more white females than black females go to college,_

In terms of raw numbers, yes, because there are more white females than black females in the U.S. In terms of _rates_ , no, black women enroll in college at a higher rate than white women [0] and are awarded degrees at a higher rate than white women [1]. Now this is a relatively recent (last 10 years) development so it could be that arrest rates haven't had time to adjust for this if the hypothesis is correct.

[0] [http://www.census.gov/hhes/school/data/cps/2011/tables.html](http://www.census.gov/hhes/school/data/cps/2011/tables.html) look at the "White alone non-Hispanic" and "Black alone" table data and assuming we're limiting the comparison to 18-24 yro per the post I'm responding to, 4.6% of black women attend college vs 4.3% of white women.

[1] [http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72](http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=72)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> _Nearly half of black males and almost 40 percent of white males in the U.S. are arrested by age 23, which can hurt their ability to find work, go to school and participate fully in their communities._

An arrest by itself, without an accompanying conviction, cannot be used to deny employment.

1\. [http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm#I](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm#I)

<comment><USER14> Do arrest records show up in background checks by employers?

<comment><USER15> In Canada, at least, background checks can reveal attempted suicides and dropped charges, unfortunately: [http://www.therecord.com/news- story/4538747-names-of-420-000...](http://www.therecord.com/news- story/4538747-names-of-420-000-canadians-are-in-police-database-despite-no- criminal-records/)

<comment><USER16> The dropped charges is the worst of this.

How many people that were "kettled" during the G20 protests, despite not actually participating in the protests, nor ever being charged with anything, now have a police record?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Laws in the US are far too strict.

I am one of the people that are covered by this statistic, I was arrested around age 16. For curfew.

Curfew, the _law_ that says you can't be outside after an arbitrarily dictated time.

Absolutely ridiculous. For what it is worth--my record has been "expunged" and this arrest has not affected my adult life at all.

<comment><USER18> Curfews? That sounds like something out of a police state.

I did not know the US had curfew laws.

<comment><USER19> The U.S. is overly protective of children and young adults. We can't drink alcohol until 21 and many cities have curfew laws for kids up to the age of 16 or so. My city has a curfew for those 16 and under. They can't be out after 11 pm during the week and after 12:30 am on weekends.

<comment><USER2> Well, I don't know; why are 15 year olds walking the streets at 1 a.m.? Something is wrong there 99.99% of the time. I don't think they should be arrested though, just returned home. I had cuffs thrown on me for curfew when I was 16 or so. No arrest, but seriously, cuffed and thrown into a pen.

<comment><USER20> This kind of thinking, right here is a problem. The "something is wrong there" assumption is wrong all too often. The assumption that the situation requires cops is wrong too - the wrong thing is most likely a parenting issue and should be dealt with by parents.

Do not take me wrong, I do plan to restrict my kids movements in age appropriate ways and if they are out at 1 a.m. it better be for good reason and with my prior approval.

However, even if it is without mu approval, the appropriate punishment is not cuffing nor arresting them. That kind of thing should be reserved for potential criminals that are flight risk or about to be violent. Teaching teens that arrests are normal part of life and done for normal growing up infractions teenagers occasionally commit in all parts of world is inherently wrong.

<comment><USER2> "Should be dealt with by parents", I agree. Often, it is not, so the community has to do something. I don't mind a curfew for kids, but I don't think it should be a criminal offense either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Clarification: over 40% of young _men_ in the US have been arrested. (It is ambiguous whether "youths" refers to both sexes.)

(It is also possible to interpret the headline as saying that 40% of all youths worldwide have been in the US at some point, during which they were arrested, but I doubt many people were confused by that.)

<comment><USER22> From the article: "At age 18, arrest rates were 12 percent for white females and 11.8 percent and 11.9 percent for Hispanic and black females, respectively. By age 23, arrest rates were 20 percent for white females and 18 percent and 16 percent for Hispanic and black females, respectively."

<comment><USER23> The parent comment is clearly referring to the HN headline, not the article itself. Since young men do not massively outnumber young women, it is not the case that 40% of all US youths have been arrested.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm Canadian, and went to university in Montreal with a bunch of Americans. It always amazed me how pretty much every one of them had some sort of run-in with the police (up to and including being arrested). Usually it was related to underage drinking.

At that time I didn't personally know any Canadians who'd been arrested, and a run-in with the police was unheard of (and this isn't because I ran with a goodie two-shoes crowd).

I'm 37 now, and can't name a single Canadian I know personally who's been arrested (that doesn't mean I don't know people who've never been arrested; just that I don't know if they have).

So I had a feeling the percentage was high, but 40% of young men is... just appalling.

</comment><comment><USER25> I really want to see a heat map of this phenomena. I have a feeling there is strong geographic and urban/rural differences here. I would also like to see the percentage of the population that has been arrested by age.

This statistic is definitely not representative of where I live, that being said I don't disbelieve it, I just want to understand the details.

P.S. I am also disgusted when children are charged as adults. Maybe (probably) there needs to be a middle classification of age legally, but lacking that, it is better to error by being to lenient for the youth. The other day I saw a 12 year old girl was being changed with murder, as an adult- ridiculous!

<comment><USER26> It's pretty hard to imagine you can get figures like this without it being prevalent in urban areas.

<comment><USER27> That's why you'd use per-capita rates and not absolute numbers.

<comment><USER26> Percentages are per capita.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> If you'd like to download the raw data that this study is based on, I think you can grab it here: [https://www.nlsinfo.org/investigator/pages/search.jsp?s=NLSY...](https://www.nlsinfo.org/investigator/pages/search.jsp?s=NLSY97)

It's a fairly convoluted set of forms you have to work your way through, but in the end you can download a CSV that includes the arrest counts (or a ton of other variables) for all of the nearly 9k people in the study (although not all of them continued to submit data to the survey through the years).

More about the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth 1997 (NLSY97): [http://www.nlsinfo.org/content/cohorts/nlsy97](http://www.nlsinfo.org/content/cohorts/nlsy97)

</comment><comment><USER29> One key point with this study is that it only covers people who were born between 1980 and 1984, and follows them through their lives. The summary articles tend to ignore that, and imply the same stats apply to people born in all years.

<comment><USER30> Do you have reason to believe that people born during that window are particularly jail-prone?

<comment><USER29> Crime is definitely way down in the last 10 years. If you assume that most people are getting arrested in their 20's, then that would imply the rates would change for different birth years.

<comment><USER31> > Crime is definitely way down in the last 10 years

violent crime is. I don't think arrests are, though...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> If this is even close to correct (and I'm betting it is) we have a serious problem in the country.

The solution seems obvious. Stop arresting for minor drug offenses and victimless crimes like underage alcohol possession. Watch the number go back down to reasonable levels.

<comment><USER33> Even if we could just stop charging people with felonies for victimless crimes, then that would be a good start.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> If you are just arrested in the UK, without any charge or caution, you become ineligible for the Visa Waiver program for entry into the United States.

Interesting statistic, therefore, from this side of the pond, having strong links family, business and social in the US.

It has often been a double standard in many fields. The trademark laws are highly favorable to US companies versus Madrid Treaty Protocol countries, because the US did not ratify all that treaty. The UK does similar with EU/EC things, also. The trademark side is interesting, as the first enforcement of a trademark registered in a Treaty state against a US infringer, was Society des Baines de Mer, who own the Monte Carlo Casino, against various internet gambling sites, and I thought that may have had more allowance due to shifting policy about online gaming, than treaty affordances.

My general view, totally non specific to any country, is there needs to be a rebalancing of laws between genuine scrutiny and thoughtfulness of oversight, versus draconian penalties.

<comment><USER35> Are you a bot?

<comment><USER34> What's the fascination?

Edit: genuinely curious

<comment><USER35> Your comment seems coherent until you start to read it and realize that it doens't make any sense. If you didn't state that you weren't from the UK I could think that English may not be your first language. What does that paragraph about trademark laws have to do with this thread?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> The abstract is at [http://cad.sagepub.com/content/60/3/471.abstract](http://cad.sagepub.com/content/60/3/471.abstract) (there's a paid link for the full study to the right.)

I'd like to see error bars, or at least a clear indication of the assumptions that went into the model.

<comment><USER37> [http://scitr.com/a1j](http://scitr.com/a1j)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Used to dream of living in the US, moving our business there.

Not just due to this, but the more I read and learn about the US, the more that is exposed about the US, the less I now want to live there.

<comment><USER39> Don't come here. It's terrible, I tell you. Just terrible.

<comment><USER40> Can't tell if sarcasm or serious

<comment><USER39> Whatever you do, don't come here to find out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I've little experience in apply statistical analysis to this data ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8018014](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8018014), thank you to that user), so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but would it be possible to remove poverty as a confounding factor?

I am guessing, based largely on American television I've consumed growing up, that a higher proportion of black males grow up in poverty than white males?

</comment><comment><USER42> In a proper non police-state democracy, on the other hand, e.g some western european country, less than 5% of males/females have been arrested by age 23.

</comment><comment><USER43> I think people need to take a good hard look at where the society in general is heading. I've heard from older folks that they used to be "disciplined" by parents and teachers alike in the 50's, 60's and 70's (and I'm sure the arrest percentage wasn't 40% at the time). And now it's "I don't want a lawsuit so let's just call the police". A book on Asian "Tiger mom" is lambasted by the popular media and people in general. But Asian kids aren't being arrested in such shocking numbers, are they? Isn't it obvious that there is some merit in the "Tiger mom" philosophy? If kids are allowed to do whatever the hell they want without any repercussions ("Mr./miss you're grounded" is not one of those) then what do you expect they're going to do?

</comment><comment><USER44> So am I alone thinking that this is insane?

<comment><USER45> I don't think there's a single person on this website who is ok with this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Any ideas how this compares to other nations?

<comment><USER47> Slightly different, but surely related:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate)

Getting on for nearly 1 in 1,000 people in jail! wow!

<comment><USER48> Worse, nearly 1 in 100.

<comment><USER47> Oops. Clearly I needed more coffee.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> I would love to see a breakdown of what they were most arrested for.

</comment><comment><USER50> I agree, and you nailed it: State has slowly stolen authority to parentd. Either you allow slap and spank nor you let other call the cops...

</comment><comment><USER51> Something is severely broken.

</comment><comment><USER52> Wow. That's order of magnitude more than where I live.

</comment><comment><USER53> Wondering what is the histogram of these arrests look like.

</comment><comment><USER54> I get a 403, could someone post the contents?

</comment><comment><USER55> Black isn't a race, neither is White, where do Hispanics fall on this spectrum and Asians?

</comment><comment><USER56> *In the US

</comment><comment><USER57> There are far too many laws in the u.s. and you can never know when you're breaking a law. And enforcement is often arbitrary and based on if the police want to harass/check you, or if they want to pile charges on top of another charge to get you to deal on a plea.

Some countries view laws as a failure of society. You don't pass a law until your society has failed in that way, and instead you use social norms/controls. For example, Switzerland has no minimum wage but has a moral minimum wage of around $50K (except for a few worker types)

The u.s. seems to view laws as a way to mold society into a vision. But you end up with way too many laws that you could never know.

<comment><USER58> > enforcement is often arbitrary and based on if the police want to > harass/check you

This. Absolutely this. So many laws are __only __enforced if and when you 've irritated a cop. There are so many laws in the US about so many stupid things that they can ALWAYS bust you for something if they want to. Always.

There's probably a handful of things they could charge me with on my drive home.

<comment><USER59> It doesn't take much to irritate a cop. Sometimes, the sight of or bare minimum interaction with you is enough to trigger irritation in a cop for reasons. So many laws are enforced solely because a cop thinks you don't look the part and look suspicious for, erm, reasons.

Unfortunately, these reasons are pervasive throughout the justice system so make sure you don't irritate a cop or it could cost you money, time and freedom.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I find it interesting that I know no one in any of my immediate or extended family who has ever been arrested and I'm 62 years old. The closest I ever had that happening to me is when I was 20 and didn't know I was breaking a law* .

I'm no preacher's kid. I just live my life and try to enjoy myself. I don't bother anyone even when others bother me. I just don't get it.

* I was working at a place that went on strike. Picketers took our picture when we walked into the building so they could show who was crossing their line. To be funny, one morning I took their picture. They called the police to say I was harassing them. One young, rookie cop came in ready to haul me off until his sergeant showed up and had a conference with my boss.

</comment><comment><USER61> No Asian mentioned. Do we exist????????

<comment><USER29> Only 160 of the 8904 survey respondents are Asian or Pacific Islander. That's probably too small a sample to get valid data.

<comment><USER62> 4.8% of Americans are Asian Americans, but only 1.7% of their respondents are Asian Americans or Pacific Islanders?

I wonder what went wrong with their surveying method.

<comment><USER63> Their surveying method is perfectly fine. The study is based on a cohort of kids who were born between 1980 and 1984 (in USA); and in 1980 Asian Americans were only 1.6% of USA population ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_de...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic_demographics_of_the_United_States)).

It does disregard (relatively) recent immigrants in that regard, though; but if it's to be used as analysis of gov't policy/parenting/schooling/etc circumstances, then you'd want to look at people who grew up in USA policies and environment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Also over 50% of violent crimes go unsolved and over 80% of property crimes. Looks like there could be more arrests if they solved more crimes.

<comment><USER65> Or maybe they might be able to solve more crimes if they arrested fewer people and used the resources for investigation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> Sounds bad, but assuming an arrest under 23 can happen any time between the ages of, say, 7 and 22, that's actually 2.7% in any given year, or roughly 1 in every 40 male children.

It almost certainly points to police officers arresting children en masse in order to discover the real perpetrator rather than any child criminality epidemic.

<comment><USER67> It's not the rate that makes it bad , but the effects. In other words, it's not that there is a crime epidemic or a major problem with youth, or that every year only 1 in every 40 male children get arrested but that over all their youth-time taken as a whole 40% will have been arrested. But even that is not the key point from the abstract. The key point - what makes it bad are:

1) "Criminal records that show up in searches can impede employment, reduce access to housing, thwart admission to and financing for higher education and affect civic and volunteer activities such as voting or adoption. They also can damage personal and family relationships."

2) "A problem is that many males – especially black males – are navigating the transition from youth to adulthood with the baggage and difficulties from contact with the criminal justice system,"

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> The high school graduation rate in the US's big cities floats around 50-60%. The way I see it about half the kids growing up don't become white collar over-educated cubicle jockeys. I imagine these two groups strongly overlap. You can get a trade job with a endless arrests or even a conviction.

<comment><USER69> Wow. Most trade jobs require at least a high school diploma; many require some additional training (not necessarily an associates degree, but often a certificate of some sort, and enrollment in those courses requires a diploma).

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> I find this frankly implausible. What percentage of people you know have been arrested? I'm guessing very small (even assuming that many hide it and so you're knowledge is substantially skewed). So maybe that's because of your high/squeaky-clean socio-economic class? No: imagine yourself in any class you care to. Unless that class is much, much larger than your "real" class, then it would have to have an astronomical arrest rate (80%?) to compensate.

I wanna see the data.

<comment><USER71> The study appears to be using "arrested" to mean "convicted of a crime for which the person could have been arrested (taken in to police custody)"? Example: I have never been arrested/taken in to police custody but, I was convicted of providing alcohol to minors at a college party and, had I not willingly taken the citation from the officer or, had I been belligerent and uncooperative, I could have been arrested. Technically, you could argue while the officer was issuing me the citation I was under some sort of arrest, but that does not comport with either the legal notion of being under arrest or what most people think of as being under arrest.*

Given the journal, that seems like an odd error to make. I could have that wrong, but it would make sense given that article specifically mentions truancy and underage drinking, two charges which seldom result in arrest.

Maybe that makes the statistic a little less shocking to those surprised by the number? Again, I certainly could be wrong, but it really would be surprising if the 40% refers to people actually having been read Miranda rights, hand cuffed, placed in a police car, etcetera. Even for other common crimes for that age group, like possession (generally marijuana), usually a citation is issued and the drugs are seized but no arrest is made. This is all said from the perspective of a judicial clerk in Portland, Oregon, who works a lot with the dockets related to citations related to minor misdemeanor offenses. Perhaps it is different in other states.

Anecdotally: almost everyone I know well has been convicted of a misdemeanor of some sort for which they could have been arrested but only one person I know has ever been taken in to police custody.

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest#United_States_2](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest#United_States_2)

<comment><USER39> I would say you're is the most insightful comment in this thread. I am biased towards thinking you are correct in that when one publishes a paper, there are incentives towards a more dramatic interpretation/presentation of the data. So, a study that said 10% of all males have been arrested, would not have gotten as much notice as the current presentation.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: I made CommitSearch, a GitHub commit message search tool - <AUTHOR> http://commitsearch.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> I built CommitSearch because I wanted a way to search through a repo and all of its forks to see if a feature was ever built or a bug was fixed.

Also used it as a chance to play with Node, Backbone, and Redis.

Let me know if you have any questions or issues, thanks!</comment>


Show HN: How many rain drops to cover a pavement? [Simulation] - <AUTHOR> http://charbz.com/water-drop-simulation-interview-question/ <comment><USER2> Nice simulation and throwing in that you know how trees work.

The embedded me would have brute forced it and gone with setting a double variable to 0x03FFFFFFFFFFFF then turning a bit off when that section was covered. When the variable was zero, pavement covered.

In a more fancy version I'd gone with an array to match the pavement length set to zero and incremented each pavement section by 1 to count the drops in each section. Scan each time to find the first zero, if found more rain, if no zeros then done. That would give a bonus, after the simulation ran I could get a histogram of how many raindrops per section.</comment>


Ask HN: Why is Gmail trying to change its UI? - <AUTHOR> How many are still on the old classic gmail UI and how many are on new one? Also, is anybody using inbox.google.com? <comment><USER2> Probably fashion more than anything else. Feels like it's trying for the 'flat' design aesthetic that's become the norm online nowadays.

And I suspect that design was made to appeal to more 'casual' users, with the assumption being that a more minimalistic look would be more appealing/popular/usable for them.

But it's not really working. Based on people I've spoken to, many seem to despise the new design and almost everyone I've asked wanted to switch back to the classic version. That's not about techies either, it's more casual and often older users that seem annoyed by the new design too.

</comment><comment><USER3> I switched because I figured they'd turn the old one off eventually and I might as well get used to it. No issues on my end, and I'm not sure if it was there before but there's an option to make composing new emails take up most of the screen rather than the tiny popout, which I like.

Guess I'm not much of an advanced email user though, I use probably 3 other mail apps for various accounts and don't take advantage of any other features.

</comment><comment><USER4> Because they can? The department that runs Gmail has to justify their budget I suppose.

</comment><comment><USER5> The screen looks messy to me. I really don't care/want to see the attached files. It reminds me of stack of old books on a shelf with pages spilling out.

</comment><comment><USER6> I think it's just to get some news. The longer you are on the market the older you're UI gets. To go along with trends and to stay up to date you need changes. I actually try the new UI and it just looks a bit more modern but that's it. But the people talk about it so it works ;)

</comment><comment><USER7> I've been using Inbox for years.

It's a much better workflow.

I wish I was able to archive/snooze _everything_ in _every_ app.

</comment><comment><USER8> I hated their old UI, another one of those one page apps that doesn't work like the rest of the internet. The new one is better but again one of those one page apps that doesn't work like the rest of the net.

</comment><comment><USER9> I switched because ultimately I will be forced to use it, so better start using it now. I use the compact setting, & same in earlier one was really compact; but in new it still has lots of white space, so use the 90% zoomed out version of new one.

</comment><comment><USER10> Many Google products are changing UI these days. YouTube, Search Console. They're updating all to have a similar UI I guess.

</comment><comment><USER11> I hardly ever login to Gmail, as I pull emails over imap. But I switched long time ago because I am always excited to use the new UI.

</comment><comment><USER12> When you can no longer innovate, change UI!

</comment><comment><USER13> I switched to new UI its nothing compared to what valve did for cs go.</comment>


Tales from the Programming Trenches - <AUTHOR> http://cybertiggyr.com/gene/tales/

<comment><USER2> He didn't have a chance to look too closely when he was a vendor at MSFT:

\- build.exe is not perl. Perl (and many other tools) have been used to do specific tasks within the build, but build.exe is essentially a makefile driver. You can read documentation on it in the Windows Driver SDK.

\- FCIBs (* checked in binaries) were the exception, not the rule. But sometimes, you have something from a third party that you don't have source access to. Even when you're MSFT. Given the security review paranoia now, I would be shocked if any still exist.

\- robocopy doesn't fix "bugs" in xcopy; it supports mirroring and checksum validations. Let's put it like we're in third grade again -- robocopy:xcopy::rsync:cp. Robocopy is available via the Windows Server Resource Kit, last I checked five years or so ago.

I'm sure this guy has had a bunch of interesting experiences and has a lot to share, but the lack of any investigation whatsoever of the tools he was using on a daily basis and wildly incorrect statements about them feels like a Fox News Special Report.

<comment><USER3> Robocopy is available in a stock Windows 7 installation. It may have been in Vista too, but I don't remember for certain. Just FYI...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The thing about the XBox and not providing a Linux kit: I thought that there was some sort of import tariff on computers that wasn't on game consoles in the EU or something like that.

Or maybe I've got it the other way around? I can't quite remember, my memory is fuzzy.

</comment><comment><USER5> Just wow. I must have been good and/or lucky at choosing where I work and with whom, because in my 15-year career I've never encountered this kind of stupidity. I've certainly never encountered the likes of Baltar.

</comment><comment><USER6> This stupid manager/analyst comes to my desk complaining that everything's stopped working. He was quite angry. I check it out and find out he has changed some tables. I confront him, and he replies "but isn't the system object-oriented?".

Sigh.

When we put lots of data into the database, the system starts working very slowly. He gets angry again. So I look carefully and find out that he didn't create any indexes. In fact, he didn't know what they were. And I was the one who couldn't touch the database, because I might break something!

Sigh.

</comment><comment><USER7> Everything he said about the Xbox internals and the attitude of the security folks there (which is fantastic) was wrong.

Entertaining. But still wrong.</comment>


Probabilistic Models of Cognition - <AUTHOR> https://probmods.org

<comment><AUTHOR> This is an absolute work of art, if you take the time to digest what they've done. In order to articulate a model of cognition, they have implemented a probabilistic version of Scheme, that compiles to JavaScript, and that allows for forward and _reverse_ simulation in the browser. Given a model that can simulate forward from causes to effects, you can simulate backward (perform inference) from observed effects to causes, all inline throughout the book.

</comment><comment><USER2> I am one of the contributors to this project. This site is used as the interactive textbook for a class taught by my PhD advisor at Stanford (Psych 204: Computation and Cognition)

Caveat emptor: the project is under very rapid development

Also, the code for this stuff is up on Github: [http://github.com/probmods](http://github.com/probmods)</comment>


A Plan for Résumé Spam - <AUTHOR> http://raganwald.posterous.com/a-plan-for-resume-spam <comment><USER2> I wouldn't be OK with you sharing with other people the fact that I interviewed with you, especially if it was on a formalized routinized basis and most especially if it was to drive some service that computed my value as a candidate.

Things - 'tptacek - is - OK - with is a _very_ poor measurement of how good an idea is or isn't (unless it involves Javascript crypto in which case I am right), but I thought you might want the data point. I like to think of myself as an A-player (or at least an A- player), and I'd skip talking to your company if I knew it did something like this.

For what it's worth, I think a better way to supply talent to your team is not to depend on a steady inflow of resumes to begin with, but to actively recruit. We do classes, we give talks, and I yell at people on Hacker News; all of these things have outperformed job reqs for us on recruiting.

<comment><USER3> _I wouldn't be OK with you sharing with other people the fact that I interviewed with you..._

PARTICULARLY not if through those other people there is a reasonably high chance of it getting back to my employer.

You could avoid that by having the service not provide any level of detail, just a "yes/no, this person passed threshold X requests in time T." But if that got popular then I guarantee that craptastic employers would get the bright idea of, after hiring people, having lots of fake companies report interviewing them. This would make their current employees have trouble getting interviewed elsewhere.

<comment><USER4> By your own line of reasoning, then, this could not be successful.

<comment><USER3> Not quite.

The initial idea, as presented, would likely fail to succeed once people were aware of the risk. The amended version could succeed, but there are high odds of some abuse.

The pertinent question then is whether the abused version is worse than the current reality. My gut says that most employers won't abuse it, and it would prove to be at least a somewhat useful filter. So despite my negative tone, it at least has a chance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _There's a huge inefficiency in the hiring market, and someone is going to make some money solving the problem._

There are huge inefficiencies in _everything_. That doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem. The only ones who think that hiring is a problem are those who haven't solved it.

Think of it as a bell curve (what a surprise). Some companies suck. Most are mediocre. But a few have it figured out.

I've been on both sides of this process more times than I can count and I've noticed that the companies that do it well have a lot in common:

\- They rely on up front third party aptitude and personality screening to eliminate 95% to 98%. They pay, but it's a bargain.

\- They use interview quantity (lots of them, by phone and in person).

\- They use interview quality (peers, supervisors, customers getting well below the "surface").

\- They use variety (interviews, testing, get-togethers).

\- They check references without a canned checklist (logic path driven, in- depth).

\- They use HR primarily for formalities.

\- They take their time.

\- They "solve a long term problem" for all parties involved.

I admire your desire to solve a problem that affects so many, but I wonder if your approach is the best way. Maybe it's better for the mediocre to do what already works by copying the excellent. Then they wouldn't have such a big problem to solve.

<comment><USER6> the only time I've ever even seen a third party aptitude or personality test before an interview was when I was 15 and I worked for some temp agency moving things around in a warehouse. In the 15 years hence, working as a programmer or SysAdmin, I've never seen such a thing. Coincidentally, that was also my last drug test.

Now, I don't use illegal drugs; Hell, I could easily pass one of those 'hair tests' that see if you have used marijuana in the last few years. Still, as an employee, my assumption is that if you require a drug test or similar, you are not a company that will respect me as an employee. My assumption if you made me take a 'personality test' would be that your company is run by idiots.

The rest seems to be pretty good advice, assuming that you are a company that can't just hire people as a contractor, and then let them go if they don't work out.

this is what I do at my company: If someone looks good, I hire them for a short project. If they don't do well, they get paid for their time and sent on their way. Personally, I think it's more respectful than grilling someone for 4 or 8 hours without pay, and it probably gives me a better idea of how good they are.

<comment><USER7> You make a good point, but as for telling how a company will respect you, because they ask for a drug test, you may be a little off.

If it is a big company, HR practices will have nothing to do with anything else in the company, so don't judge the department you will be working in by what HR makes you do. On the other hand, a company that lets HR have free reign to do anything, may cause endless suffering as HR feel the need to make themselves more "integrated".

I recently interviewed for a developer in a government position, and decided that the people doing the interview are the ones are out of their depth, and should be unemployed. They clearly had to technical understanding where it was required for their job, and got very confused by the simplest question.

<comment><USER8> HR practices disconnected from a respectful approach to the individuals involved can certainly reflect on the general approach of a large company.

HR is one of those neglected things, if they've gotten that right then they tend to have other things right. It's also something that you hope will be invisible and will "just work" when you're there... you want it to be friendly, respectful, and efficient.

I would say that if HR appears from the outset to be burdened by needless bureaucracy (an aptitude test when you acknowledge the position/department/legislature may not require it) definitely checks the box of reflecting a corporate culture that allows such crud to creep in.

I don't go for any positions that: 1) Require me to jump through silly hoops when there is no benefit from anyone to doing so. 2) Bog me down in bureaucracy before I've even begun. 3) Require me to give access to any personal data that they do not have the legal right to ask for.

On that last one, I'm talking about social networking credentials, overly invasive background checks that don't relate to the position and so on. I was fine with the Home Office and GCHQ asking questions about my finances, running criminal record checks and contacting friends and family as part of a security vetting process that they have the legal mandate to perform... but I wouldn't be fine with a large company performing such things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What if someone set up an "almost hired" list? That is, after a company finishes its job search, it can send a few names (with applicant approval) to the service.

Other employers can enter names from resumés they have received, and find out if that applicant made it to the final lap on any recent interviews.

There's no direct benefit to companies putting the names in, but it could be seen as a 'pay it forward' sort of service -- if you benefitted from this, please put your finalists in after you choose your hire.

One important distinction the service would have to make is not allow _browsing_ of names, only specific name-lookup, so job-seekers can only be found by companies they're applying to.

<comment><USER4> There are dicey and unpleasant issues involved in sharing information about your hiring process.

 _... especially if you're going to be talking to people who are presently employed..._

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> There's a bunch of obvious problems, off the top of my head: People should be able to to look for a job without necessarily tipping of their current employer. Ambition and hard work, unless expressed very carefully, could well become an endless trap. Those who work in industries with terrible unemployment will continue to be stigmatized even after they abandon their search in their old field and strike out into new ones. There's potential for abuse, e.g. Apple could falsely report all its current employees as submitting bajillions of resumes and thus prevent them finding other jobs. There's the problem of recruiters who submit resumes indiscriminately on a job seeker's behalf, sometimes without permission or even the seeker's knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER11> An interesting idea (I'm sort of involved in this space), but I'd be a bit worried about the legalities involved.

A few years back there was a case where a group of companies (I think in the construction sector) were prosecuted for operating a cartel because they co- operated in developing a blacklist of "trouble-maker" employees (as a do-not- hire list).

<comment><AUTHOR> I have also thought of lots of problems with this business that need to be solved... But that's ok, that's why we always say the execution is more important than the idea: "Execution" is often a blanket term for "Negotiating all the hurdles and picking the right trade-offs and which problems to solve to make it a reality."

One that would keep me up at night is an employer who 'tastes' their employee's resume by sending it to a fake job ad. If it has a positive spray score of any magnitude, they have just learned that the employee is job seeking. Bad!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> The main problem with hiring/resumes isn't just volume. Volume has become a problem with the ease of sending the resume. We removed a barrier(fax, mail, drop off) and naturally the flood started. Businesses compensated by listing arbitrary values for hard skills/experience, which in turn applicants sent resumes to places they were even more unqualified for on paper.

The crux of the problem is that there isn't a way to directly quantify what is absolutely needed for a job position, and in turn, there isn't a way for an applicant to demonstrate they meet those qualifications, short of the person doing the job. The need for human interpretation is too ingrained in the current process, even with the filtering mechanisms in place

<comment><USER13> > _The crux of the problem is that there isn't a way to directly quantify what > is absolutely needed for a job position, and in turn, there isn't a way for > an applicant to demonstrate they meet those qualifications, short of the > person doing the job._

This varies according to job. E.g. for a programming job, the employer could ask applicants to solve a programming problem, such as FizzBuzz (or something harder).

<comment><USER12> But even that doesn't provide any quantitative judgement of what the job requires or what the applicant can do. It says they can write code that does X. I've never been a part of or seen a job where the only real skills needed were syntax knowledge and basic familiarity with common algorithms. There's things like interpreting requirements, time/task/priority management, bug diagnosis, impact assessment, domain knowledge. How do you quantify "Can figure out why we keep getting kernel panics after the kernel upgrade on only some machines? Oh, the thing the machines have in common are they are the multi-core/multi-processor boxes. Is it a bug in our code or the kernel? Are they still acceptable for the position if they can't identify the problem, but can identify that rolling the kernel back is a viable short-term alternative?"

The ideal scenario is the applicant mashes a button and gets a list of job they're truly qualified and a good fit for (as in, highly likely to get a phone screen on) and the hiring company can mash the same button. Everyone keeps trying to find new ways to invent or improve the button. No filter or screen is going to work until companies can definitively measure the quality of applicants between two postings for the same job (e.g., A/B test job position listings) and candidates determine if they are qualified based on that.

There's a lot of problems to solve, but the biggest by far is the fact that 90% of the jobs out there have only "can breath, assistance to breath is ok" and "can show up" as the hard skills that are required. I'm not kidding, go spend a couple of hours on Monster, or Craigslist...at least programmer jobs have <arbitrary number of years> in <technology X>...most jobs don't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think that a much simpler solution is to charge people to apply for jobs. That's what colleges do.

There are certainly some complications that would come along with this, but there would be far fewer than with keeping a database of everyone who has ever applied for any job.

I don't love the idea, and I know quite a few people have tried making it work unsuccessfully, but I still think it's far more realistic.

<comment><USER15> Colleges charge fees more to make money than to screen candidates. We don't want to have the job market profiting from the unemployed.

Stanford University, for example: $90 fee X 20,000 applicants = $1,800,000

<comment><USER16> The first goal of universities charging to cover their costs. Stanford isn't pocketing that 1.8 million.

<comment><USER15> Maybe my opinions are a bit baised as a student who spent over $400 in fees applying to colleges.

I would have assumed that my universities' costs would be offset by the $40,000 I'm paying _every year_ for the next four years, rather than erroneous fees that aren't tallied in the advertised total cost of attendance.

<comment><USER17> The point of the fee isn't to make money. Imagine how many people would have applied if it were free? They still need employees to read all of those applications and they need to keep the quality of student up as high as possible (so they can't just outsource it, or use a lottery).

Basically, your tuition could be even higher if they dropped the fee to apply.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> /This policy is, of course, roughly equivalent to only dating married people/

Doesn't make that much sense, since we're all prolly gnna change jobs 5 maybe 10 times. I hope I don't get married 5 or 10 times.

Maybe job applicants could put a note on their resumés saying what they want to be doing in 3 to 5 years.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, this feels like we're quibbling. Would you accept a more liberal definition of marriage such as common law?

 _This policy is, of course, roughly equivalent to only dating people who are living with someone else._

Slightly more accurate but you know.... I'm going to claim poetic license. The underlying sentiment seems to be correct even if there is some room to argue the simile isn't 100% isomorphic to reality.

<comment><USER19> Great way to select people who can be lived with, aren't terrified of commitment, etc... Although there may be fidelity issues... :)

<comment><USER20> I've heard people say, when speaking of potential partners, that there's nothing better than a widow/widower. They've already proven they aren't afraid of commitment, that they can get along with someone, and they are single through no fault of their own.

The equivalent in this case would be people who did good work, but at a company that went under for reasons out of their control.

<comment><USER21> Therefore a two-time widow is even better. And a three-time widow. Wait, now I'm getting suspicious...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> First off, I want to congratulate you, reg, on coming up with such a fantastic idea. With Joel's post, and the no-job-hoppers-wanted fracas from several weeks ago, this is something that was in the air, and you were able to pick up on that, and put it into words. Even better, you don't appear to be trying to figure it all out on your own in a vacuum.

One approach to getting started would be to provide resume screening services to employers. I'm sure there are a bunch of service businesses like that today, but if you solve the problem like it is an NLP problem rather than an HR problem, that could be a differentiator.

At a large enough enterprise, I'm sure there are people who are applying for a bunch of different positions over an extended period of time, and just being able to solve that problem intelligently for that one enterprise is something that must be useful for some big firm out there. So I don't think you need to have a bunch of employers on the system to get started.

But that doesn't address the real challenge, which seems to be that your service provides clear benefits to the employer, but not for the employee. The employer gets better candidates, more efficiently, and almost every business that's hiring acknowledges that they have trouble finding enough good candidates.

What about the potential employee? Why would they want to participate in this sort of system vs. the status quo? That seems like the challenge to me, more than legal issues, or the employer side of the equation.

There is definitely terrific potential here, exactly because hiring is currently so inefficient: it'll be really interesting see how this idea develops.

</comment><comment><USER23> Hiring and firing people means there are many laws implemented to protect the guilt and the innocent. Where there are laws, there are lawyers. There's also no clear place for monetisation.

Avoid ye, for here be dragons.

</comment><comment><USER24> Perhaps I am too much of a simple country boy to be fully into the social media online thing, but there is a whole aspect of job hunting/employee finding scenario that is missing from our thinking here. Quite after the fact, I realized that I had been an unconscious networker and that in my multi- decade career that there had been a very low number of non-networked job landings. The rest, including the consulting/contracting that I have done were from the network I had grown into from previous professional relationships.

Being in a profession that automates things, we (self included) tend to try to automate things that don't automate well, or do things by remote control that should be done in person. One case in point was my son when he was in grade school. There was a lot of difficulty for all involved for him to focus on his homework. Finally, I hit on a pretty simple and essentially zero-technology solution. I would sit in his room with him, not supervising him so much as being there for him to ask whatever question he wanted. Many interesting questions came up, and some were even related to his homework, but his grades skyrocketed. This was about support and not about being the other room and loudly saying "get back to your homework".

So if you have a mental bias towards automatability, this method sounds "inefficient", but perhaps that is a false efficiency.

Similarly, successful hiring is forming a relationship. A relevant book is "Confessions of a Headhunter" in which the author tells of tracking executives for quite some time before an actual approach is made. Now that is particularly expensive as executives are a smaller percentage of a population than startup dudes and dudettes, but that seems to be a better direction to go than trying to do this by remote control.

Incidentally, the introduction to that book tells of the author's sailing experience in which he nearly won a race against severely better boats, and failed to do so simply because he didn't happen to think that he could.

</comment><comment><USER25> What exactly is wrong with Fizz-buzz as a 'spam reduction' technique? Raganwald's method has several issues: it's unfair to people who are very picky and are only looking for the best jobs themselves. Very often they're the best people, for whom the search for a position that will fully use their talent is much harder: they apply to companies that have a long hiring cycle and high "false negative" rates, while they will reject offers they dislike.

Second, there's the obvious problem of privacy: it's a huge problem for passive candidates (again, who are often -- but not always -- best of the best) and a problem for candidates who apply for tough-to-get positions, have a bad day (or the person interviewing them has a bad day) and now become "damaged goods" by the virtue of a publicly known rejection (which could be no indication of their lack of competence).

</comment><comment><USER26> how would it solve the problem of recruiters sending the same resume to a few hundred places? I know that there's a really old resume of mine that has been forever circulating from a firm I used years ago.

<comment><AUTHOR> Most algorithms that work with real world data have a simple core but end up covered with warts and exceptions because of stuff like this. No doubt a company that does a good job with this has some special rule sor scoring weights for resumes sent out by recruiters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Couldn't a large proportion of resume spam be filtered just by asking the applicant for something specific, and ignoring anyone who doesn't comply? IE. Add a specific phrase to the subject of the email. You could embed this in the middle of the job spec; people whom don't read it carefully are likely not worth interviewing anyway.

</comment><comment><USER28> This has a chicken and egg problem. You can only get companies to use this if employees use it, and you can only get employees to use it if there are employers. Employees would not want to limit themselves for no reason, either.

<comment><AUTHOR> One implementation would be a service where a job ads includes a submisison mailbox like firstname.lastname@example.com. The service company collects statistics about who is spraying their email everywhere and provides employers with a "spray score" for each resume collected.

No employee involvement would be required.

<comment><USER29> Don't use an external domain, just forward firstname.lastname@example.com to firstname.lastname@example.com and have it forward only the approved applications to email@example.com. Fully automated and transparent. Store the rejected applicants and send them an automated "thanks for your time" when the position is filled.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Even though it's not perfect our current system has a lot of advantages over previous systems like hiring only relatives, or making everyone contract labor.

</comment><comment><USER31> In IT field, latest technology is still considered as greatest.</comment>


How I built a web app in six days for only Rs. 350 ($8.75) - <AUTHOR> http://www.paraschopra.com/blog/personal/how-i-built-a-webapp-in-six-days-for-rs-350-8-usd-only.htm

<comment><AUTHOR> That post is partially in response to TechCrunch featured 'How To Build A Web App in Four Days For $10,000 (Say Hello To Matt)' ([http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/07/03/how-to-build-a-web- app-...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/07/03/how-to-build-a-web-app-in-four- days-for-10000-say-hello-to-matt/)) and partially to document my process of building a web app.

Critical comments and candid feedback appreciated.

<comment><USER2> Very nice, but bare in mind they didn't really make it for $10,000, thats what the salaries for 9 people for 4 days of work would be. (and even then, they only had 3 real people doing the work on the site, the other 6 people were doing PR, which obviously worked!!)

I don't know where you live and how much a salary and living costs are, but I'm sure if you had to charge for this it would cost more than $8.75...in fact I would estimate it would be equivalent to $1000 doing it alone, maybe?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, aptly put. But I recently graduated from college and having holidays before I join a firm. So just did that for fun. Salary-wise, maybe I would put in additional Rs. 10,000 ($250) for six days. But that is still extremely bootstrappable.

<comment><USER3> Nice!

But the point you mentioned: market research

I would go around trying to find out what people in my surrounding are really craving for in the internet and then try to create that.

But paraschopra, the name matters too. The name should be 'remember-able' or 'recall-able'.

<comment><USER4> jugaad is slang for 'work' or 'effort'. So while myjugaad.in might not be the best name for a slide show website it's a pretty nice name - esp for a site that showcases a person's projects/websites.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Actually that is very good progress for both the timeframe and cost.

</comment><comment><USER6> Actually, I tried the website, typed in Ferrari, and was able to surf easily through 10 interesting articles linked from Google news.

I like it. I think it's really nicely done.

</comment><comment><USER7> Nice application. It's a really good start and a good guide to how people can make a nice application.

But I've noticed something. All the new webaps seem to have the same (slick) design. I like it, but I can't replicate it. Is there a template or guide you all follow?

<comment><AUTHOR> I gave the link on my blog. Anyhow, here is the link again (with a few additional links) 1\. <http://www.solucija.com/home/css-templates/> 2\. <http://www.freecsstemplates.org/> 3\. <http://www.free-css-templates.com/> 4\. Just google 'free css templates' or 'free web app templates'

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Nice.

Some thoughts:

* Allow the creation of slide shows without signing/up, as 280slides allows. * If a page requires JavaScript to work, have a notice on the page for people like me who surf with NoScript on to tell them to turn on scripting.

</comment><comment><USER9> ping: cannot resolve www.paraschopra.com: Unknown host

"pay for what you get?" :-p

<comment><AUTHOR> he he :)

it is some stuff with DNS. Facing a lot of trouble on that front. Any solution?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This junk crashed my firefox.

<comment><AUTHOR> Which version of firefox, what is your connection speed and which slideshow were you trying to watch?</comment></comment>


Show HN: Coggle – Beautiful mind maps - <AUTHOR> https://coggle.it/ <comment><USER2> The problem with all these mind map drawing tools is that they seem like a paper where you can draw and link your thoughts, but are too limited. This one, for example, only lets you add new branches to existing branches, it doesn't let you reorganize branches, or link from an item to another in another branch. I don't know how and if it should do this, but it is a problem. This is not yet the ultimate mind map solution we were waiting for.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agreed. It does let you reorganize (using shift) but its cumbersome. Not letting you link between existing items would need to be added, I've been using it today and it would be good to have that feature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Your tag line is "beautiful mind maps", yet the screenshots on your site are tiny and I can't see what the interface looks like.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree. The site's not mine though, otherwise I would highlight the appearance more; the mind maps are really beautiful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> How does Coggle pay for server cost if it's free to use and always will be?

<comment><AUTHOR> Looks like they ask you to put down 5 GBP per year support to gain early access to features.</comment></comment>


The Gaiman Principle: piracy is advertising & why Ramen Music encourages sharing - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ramenmusic.com/post/3620247918/the-gaiman-principle-piracy-is-advertising-and-why

<comment><USER2> The documentary "Good Copy, Bad Copy" (a must-watch, by the way) has a segment on the Brazilian phenomenon called "Tecno Brega". You can watch it here: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo2sv3jjJi8>

Basically, the musicians give out free CDs of their music, and make money on live concerts. They treat the free music as advertising.

This is true, if you look at it: the experience of listening to a live music concert is totally different from that of listening to it on a pair of cans. The social aspect of sharing a live event has a lot of value on its own; if the musicians can monetize it well, it's a good revenue stream. There's no reason why the 100-year old technique of "frozen music" be the only way to earn a living.

<comment><USER3> I don't like what's happening with IP -- meaning the draconian "enforcement" including especially ever-expanding ownership timeframes. But when I see this argument, I can't help thinking, "Not everyone is an extrovert." I think that goes for both listeners (viewers, etc.) and musicians.

I'm not trying to make a big counter-argument. Just this point.

<comment><USER4> I see your argument and think it's important. However, I think it's probably also true that the existing and historical models for rewarding musical talent exclude some people. The question then becomes, which models are better overall and less exclusive.

On the whole I'm not convinced that there is much value in retaining the horribly exploitive traditional model of the mega-powerful recording studio.

<comment><USER3> No, I'm not arguing for the corrupt "record company" model. A model that, actually, appears to me to be propelled in good part by psychopathic (in the clinical sense), type A and often extroverted personalities.

I just don't want to see such ideas become another form of discrimination against introverts. In many fields, introverts end up being placed at some disadvantage by extroverts who argue that they should simply "suck it up" and "put themselves out there".

Ultimately, I guess it's "survival of the fittest". In my perspective, however, too much of such attitude makes for an unhealthy society. (At which point, we have to get pissed enough to (meet and organize on Facebook, and) rise up and kill all the lawyers, etc., etc. ;-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have thought for a while that some take on the Mixergy model would be an excellent way to distribute music.

If you don't know, about a year ago (?), Andrew Warner initiated a system wherein new interviews would always be free, but you would have to pay for archival content. This seems to be working for Mixergy, but I submit that it could be even better for a record label - it promotes long-term development of artists, using their work as its own promotional material, and adds incentives to maintain a working relationship. It also rewards fans the fans that are most likely to evangelize.

</comment><comment><USER6> I read American Gods for the first time after downloading it, and then I bought it.

<comment><USER7> Slightly OT, but if you liked American Gods, might I also suggest "Good Omens", a book he wrote with Terry Pratchett. Easily one of the funniest books I've read, and a brilliant storyline.

[Coincidentally, I read a downloaded version of this, and have since bought about 10 copies and gifted to people.]

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Two words: "mix tape"

(Also, we've really come a long, long way from a bunch of inky-fingered hunchbacks in a scriptorium, huh?)

</comment><comment><USER9> I usually don't like to cite any popular tech books, but there is a great chapter in "Free" by Chris Anderson on examples where piracy is being monetized in China, Brazel, etc.

It's probably one of the best parts of the book.

</comment><comment><USER10> Great article. It's Neil, by the way!

</comment><comment><USER11> "No big studio picked up the film [Ink] for theatrical and home distribution. Double Edge Films pitched the movie directly to independent cinemas and to the DVD, Blu-ray and online distribution by themselves. After the release it became the most downloaded movies in file sharing torrent sites more accurately 400,000 times in a single week and exposed the film to a large audience, leading to higher DVD and Blu-ray sales in return. The independent filmmakers wrote in their newsletter that they had "embraced the piracy" and are "happy Ink is getting unprecedented exposure." : <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1071804/trivia>

</comment><comment><USER12> I think Neal Gaiman is the only one calling it "The Gaiman Principle" ...

<comment><USER13> This article isn't written by Neal Gaiman, but by Sudara Williams, one of the founders of Ramen Music.</comment></comment>


The Dirty Truth About Hand Dryers - <AUTHOR> https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2016/02/the-dirty-truth-about-hand-dryers/ <comment><USER2> Even the prestigious Cleveland Clinic is not above using a clickbait headline in their health newsletter. I was shocked until I remembered that they were among the institutions that got snookered by Theranos.</comment>


Rtc.io – Open source WebRTC library - <AUTHOR> http://rtc.io/ <comment><USER2> Does this have a WebRTC data channel client implementation, or does it solve more rudimentary aspects of WebRTC such as passing offers and answers (i.e. signalling)? This node module [1] is a client for data channels (but sadly no native Windows support yet which is a needed thing [2]). Once more widely adopted, WebRTC will be a great data communication method between users of all sorts of common-user desktop applications, not just browsers, mainly because of it's NAT traversal techniques and encrypted-by-default requirement. In some instances a TURN proxy may be required (and the popular one [3] isn't the easiest to setup, and doesn't have a native-Windows-not-Cygwin install). This is especially true for users behind large corporate/government networks that don't give you a single public IP per machine.

I have done a lot of work w/ WebRTC data channels recently and I am working on a POC for hosting one's own "page" (i.e. facebook-esque profile page) themselves. WebRTC I think is the best technology so far for the decentralization of internet data from hosted servers to users. It still requires some server side things such as signalling (the handshake), STUN servers (external IP discovery behind a network), and TURN servers (proxies for complicated networks). By packaging up those three things into a single server that can be easily deployed by someone you trust (i.e. some kind of regional "manager" of sorts) and having good software to display web content over WebRTC data channels, a neighborhood-level darknet of sorts will be very feasible for even non-technical users.

1 - [https://github.com/js-platform/node-webrtc](https://github.com/js- platform/node-webrtc) 2 - [https://github.com/js-platform/node- webrtc/issues/42](https://github.com/js-platform/node-webrtc/issues/42) 3 - [http://code.google.com/p/rfc5766-turn- server/](http://code.google.com/p/rfc5766-turn-server/)

<comment><USER3> The client portions are definitely in the library, and as you point out the node-webrtc library is looking really promising for interop with server processes.

If you need any help with the POC that you are currently working on feel free to reach out and I'll see what I can do (I'm the main dev working on rtc.io at the moment). Also, the primary dev on the node-webrtc project (modeswitch) is super helpful so I'm sure he'd be happy to help out also.

Either twitter or github is a good way to get in touch with me - usename is DamonOehlman in both channels...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Dear GitHub: Please make it possible to "follow", or at the very least, star an Organization. I want to bookmark [https://github.com/rtc- io](https://github.com/rtc-io), not a particular project they are doing.

Organizations, as currently implemented, are the opposite of "social". Spend some of that $100 million and fix it please. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER5> Worth mentioning an even simpler library for newcomers: [http://simplewebrtc.com/](http://simplewebrtc.com/)

<comment><USER6> Worth mentioning that you probably don't even need a library. The WebRTC API is not obtuse.

<comment><USER3> I agree with that comment, which was one of the reasons rtc.io was created in the first place. A lot of the other libraries hide away the core browser objects through higher-level JS objects, whereas the core rtc.io library (rtc - [https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc](https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc)) encourages direct use of the browser api.

Some of the other modules (rtc-quickconnect, rtc-glue, etc) in the rtc.io suite, however, do take you further away from the metal but if you are comfortable with the core browser APIs then using a combination of rtc- signaller and the connection coupling helper in rtc ([https://github.com/rtc- io/rtc/blob/master/couple.js](https://github.com/rtc- io/rtc/blob/master/couple.js)) will probably give the most flexible option for writing a WebRTC application.

Just be aware that there are some bizarre edge cases when working with WebRTC that can leave you scratching your head at times. The rtc/couple module takes care of some, but there are still others that I'm still investigating solutions for, e.g. [https://github.com/rtc- io/rtc/issues/14](https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc/issues/14)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> [http://peerjs.com/](http://peerjs.com/) is the best library I've found for WebRTC thus far. Their documentation is fair, there's decent support for DataChannels and they've also open sourced a signalling server. [https://github.com/peers/peerjs-server](https://github.com/peers/peerjs- server)

<comment><USER8> Just to be complete: rtc.io has a signalling server at [https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc-switchboard](https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc- switchboard) . Choice of library is up to you. :-)

<comment><USER3> It does work best with the signaller from the rtc.io suite:

[https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc-signaller](https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc- signaller)

That said, it wouldn't take much to write an signalling client that followed the basics of the messaging format if you did want to roll your own:

[https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc-signaller#signaller-message- ha...](https://github.com/rtc-io/rtc-signaller#signaller-message-handlers)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Is there any app or project something like btysnc? I mean data sync using WebRTC? Any thought about speed? Can it be faster than btysnc? Thanks

<comment><USER3> I think there has been some progress made on implementing BitTorrent like clients using WebRTC data channels:

[https://github.com/feross/webtorrent](https://github.com/feross/webtorrent)

I haven't done that much investigation myself yet, but I definitely think it's possible. No idea on which will be faster, I imagine it will come down to quantity and quality of peers in both cases...

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I am new to WebRTC so here is my question: how can you "ring" my browser so I know I have an incoming call without you first telling me to go to a specific url?

I believe WebRTC has great potential to replace facetime and skype with a browser based version.

<comment><USER11> I've just started looking into it, and as far as I can understand, you can't "push" a call to others. You will have to supply a web page and the javascript to connect to a "meeting room" or whatever (using ajax?) to "find" the other peer, and exchange connection parameters, before the webRTC stuff kicks in. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

<comment><USER12> Yeah, the "signalling" process is implemented by applications, and needs either a WebSocket or SSE stream.

<comment><USER10> So we could use a browser extension to listen in the background to a central phone server for incoming calls while we happily surf the web and then get the "ring" opening the url in a tab for the incoming call to take place?

Interesting...

<comment><USER13> Yeah, but why would you want to take calls in your browser? Why not a separate application (node-webkit, Firefox app) that runs as its own process a la Skype clone?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Does anyone know of any resources (maybe a code example) for establishing a webrtc peer connection between a browser and an arbitrary service?

<comment><USER8> What does the "arbitrary service" provide? Is it a video conference, audio conference, or data channel end point?

<comment><USER14> Data channels are what I have in mind, but I can't seem to find any webrtc code that connects a browser to anything other than another browser.

<comment><USER3> Thanks to a project that has been previously pointed out (node WebRTC bindings - [https://github.com/js-platform/node-webrtc](https://github.com/js- platform/node-webrtc)) interop between a browser and node applications isn't too far away.

There is this issue which is being worked on at the moment in the node-webrtc library:

[https://github.com/js-platform/node-webrtc](https://github.com/js- platform/node-webrtc)

Once that's resolved data channel connectivity between a browser and command- line app, server, etc should be reasonably simple. While this bug is outstanding, it is possible to fall back to Rtp data channels in the browser and if that is something that is of interest then we can look at putting together some examples with rtc.io if that would help you out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is definitely a good and much required resource. You should look at also adding components for iOS and Android as well.

<comment><USER16> Do you know if it could actually work on iOS and Android? It doesn't seem supported by Safari yet [1]. I'm deeply interested by capturing the microphone on mobile devices with WebRTC.

[1] [http://iswebrtcreadyyet.com](http://iswebrtcreadyyet.com)

<comment><USER15> Safari doesn't support it. But native apps can support it. I believe Chrome for mobile also supports it.

<comment><USER17> Chrome on iOS does not. Chrome on some Android devices does.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Eagle Mode - Zoomable UI - <AUTHOR> http://eaglemode.sourceforge.net/ <comment><USER2> I've been using this for a few days - primarily the file manager. I'm at a loss for words to describe it. The interface is a mess of buttons. There is no drag and drop (a dock would be nice, to put things temporarily). You have to select source and target before you choose your operating, which can get cumbersome.

It ought to be rubbish, but it's just-about _the_ best piece of software I've ever used! I have barely tried to use a conventional file manager or the command line (for file management) since I installed it.

It is a huge improvement on the conventional file manager, and there is so much room for improvement still!

</comment><comment><USER3> Jef Raskin created a zoomable interface. From the screensnaps, this doesn't look to be as clean.</comment>


Ask HN: Does anyone have space in NYC and want to create the next big thing? - <AUTHOR>

Preferably office space of some sort in the city. I  have the technical skills and technical connections to do mostly anything. I also have a couple of potentially game-changer ideas.
Let's do something cool.
Shoot me an e-mail: firstname.lastname@example.com <comment><USER2> Sketchiest ask HN I have ever seen. Might want to provide some more information weshouldtalk.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you have the technical skills and connections to do most anything I am curious why you would need open space in NYC.

</comment><comment><USER4> Ideas are worthless, executions are everything. In that case you'd have little trouble telling us your idea and what's different about your execution.

</comment><comment><USER5> What kind of things do you have in mind? I sent you an email.</comment>


Chris Sacca can't wait for the tech industry to crash - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/legendary-investor-chris-sacca-cant-wait-for-the-tech-industry-to-crash-2015-3

<comment><USER2> Most interesting bit from the brief article is a nameless company raising $1 billion so it can get the media attention and thus make recruiting easier.

>>When he pressed the company to come up with why they needed all that money, they called a billion dollar investment "table stakes" for a company at their stage.

"If we're going to recruit we have to be on a list of unicorn companies, so it has to be at least a billion," he was told.

Sacca wasn't convinced by that argument in the slightest.

"That's f–ed," he told the audience. "That's completely f–ed."

<comment><USER3> Yeah, that really disturbed me.

Honestly, Silicon Valley just creeps me out, and this is one of the reasons why. I much prefer the tech startup scene in North Texas, which is far saner.</comment></comment>


American Idol and X-Factor Finally Figure Out Facebook. Twitter Next? - <AUTHOR> http://www.appmarket.tv/opinion/1061-american-idol-and-x-factor-finally-figure-out-facebook-twitter-next.html <comment><USER2> I'm not sure X-Factor has figured out Facebook entirely. Although what has been announced might work for the US market, in the UK all votes have been charged for using premium rate SMS, phone lines, or interactive TV, and form a massive revenue stream. I don't see any microcharging mechanism in place here, and am pretty sure ITV isn't about to surrender significant value in the franchise for no real gain.</comment>


Secret Huawei enterprise router snoop 'backdoor' was Telnet service - <AUTHOR> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/30/huawei_enterprise_router_backdoor_is_telnet/ <comment><USER2> Put this same level of geopolitical scrutiny on IP cameras and childrens toys

</comment><comment><USER3> One can only cry wolf on the Chinese spying apparatus so often before people see it as politically motivated racism. We should have tuned Bloomberg out when they were hyperventilating about secret spy chips that completely failed to materialize.

Who needs National Enquirer when you have Bloomberg raising so many bogeymen?

</comment><comment><USER4> Is it just trolling to cover the issue of Cisco routers? [https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/21/nsa-technique-for- cisco-...](https://www.engadget.com/2016/08/21/nsa-technique-for-cisco- spying/)

Should government demand that IP infra is all open source?</comment>


Petoi Bittle: A Palm-sized Robot Dog for STEM and Fun for less than $200 - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petoi/bittle <comment><AUTHOR> Please check out our open source project: [https://github.com/PetoiCamp/OpenCat](https://github.com/PetoiCamp/OpenCat)</comment>


Dawn spacecraft approaches protoplanet Vesta - <AUTHOR> http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-dawn-spacecraft-approaches-protoplanet-vesta.html <comment><USER2> Non physorg.com links:

<http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/>

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110504103742.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110504103742.htm)

<comment><USER3> Thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Among the fleet of current interplanetary spacecraft, I think Dawn is perhaps the most interesting. It will be the first spacecraft to enter orbit around a planet(oid) and then fly to a second one to enter orbit there. I just can't wait to see how it turns out.

<comment><USER5> Let's not forget Deep Impact. Flew past two asteroids, and even threw something into the first one while taking pictures (with an incredible autonavigation system). Pretty awesome if you ask me.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Impact_(spacecraft)>

<comment><USER4> That was pretty novel, but I still think Dawn is one of the most interesting still because of the ion thruster and re-orbit of ceres. The neat thing about DI (now called Epoxi and run by UMD, btw) is that it's now become a sort of flying testbed for all sorts of experimental flight and communication software. See "DINET"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Pretty exciting considering how far we've advanced. In the 1960s (an era when humans walked on the moon, even) we could do little better than send probes on flybys of planets and return a handful of low res photos and other data. The Mariner 4 mission to Mars returned less than 700 kilobytes worth of data, and left us with the impression that Mars was very much more like our Moon than anything else, it took many later missions for our more modern understanding of Mars to firm up. In contrast, Dawn uses ion engines to rendezvous with not one but two asteroids, and will study them with an impressive suite of instruments including an incredibly advanced imaging spectrometer. Each image that Dawn takes will return orders of magnitude more useful scientific data than the entire Mariner 4 mission. Meanwhile, there are other missions such as the Mars Science Laboratory, WMAP and Planck, JWST, JUNO, which are equally as astounding as measures of how far we've advanced in just a few decades.</comment>


Is Evernote really worth more than the New York Times? - <AUTHOR> http://www.inc.com/magazine/201211/phil-libin/is-evernote-worth-more-than-the-new-york-times.html

<comment><USER2> In one way, yes: Evernote provides something that would be much more difficult to otherwise have; at least compared to creating a news source.

While I'm a big fan of the NYTimes and read it almost every day (and indirectly pay for it), I could go read any number of other papers. I might miss the great journalism but can find other decent sources of news and writing.</comment>


How to hire someone from another country? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> I think for money, you can treat the coder as a contractor? How can you give the coder stock options though? Can a Delaware corp give stock options or restricted stock to people who don't have social security numbers?

<comment><AUTHOR> yeah. how can you give the coder stock options? if you don't tie him down somewhat with options/equity, there is the danger that he might run away with your company's intellectual property

<comment><USER2> I was thinking more along the lines of a coder I already trust... I see stock options as a way to ensure that s/he participates in the upside.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Like say you like this coder from UK and you're based in US. You allow working remotely, so him being in UK is not a problem.

But what about the legal side? The tax you have to pay for this foreign worker? etc.</comment>